Greetings!!!

I have been building up a new chaos army and want to field abbadon the despoiler as one of my HQ's.

I was curious how his interaction with squads is. Since he is stated to possess all four marks of chaos, can he join any squad he pleases, or none at all, since someone with an alignment mark cant join a differently or unaligned squad.

Thanks

Gunnvulcan

Strict RAW he may not join any marked squad.

He can only join an unmarked squad our a squad with all 4 marks.

He can join any squad with a mark or unmarked.

Not true. He cannot join a squad with a Mark of "W"" because he has a Mark of "X", "Y", and "Z".

What does the rule actually say?

"An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos."

Abbadon doesn't have a Mark, he has all four so he is unaffected by this rule.

 Dozer Blades wrote:

Abbadon doesn't have a Mark,

Yes he does. He has 4 of them.

Abaddon has a set of marks A, B, C and D.

If a squad has mark E they have a different one to his set of marks.

If a squad has mark A, they do not have a different mark, it is contained in Abaddon's set of marks.

This has been argued a billion times and we don't need another thread about it.

Short story; you got two options
RAW he cannot join any marked squad as the rules for joining marked squads prevents him from doing this.
RAI he can join any squad because he has all four and is the warmaster.
That's it. No more discussion please. Its been argued over enough. Use the search button if you have more questions.

By the rules he can join any squad. The rule refers to a character with only one mark.

The rule isn't a Character cannot join a squad with a different Mark. the rule is a character cannot join a squad if he has a different Mark.

Abbaddon will ALWAYS have a different Mark. ergo he can never join a marked squad.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
By the rules he can join any squad. The rule refers to a character with only one mark.

Hmm must be opposite year where you live.

He has a mark of Khorne, a mark of nurgle, etc.
So yes he has a Different mark.

It depends on what you consider different.
To me, it means 'diferent from the marks Abaddon has'.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
By the rules he can join any squad. The rule refers to a character with only one mark.

Abbadon has a mark, he has 4 of them. The rules do not refer to a character with only one mark, they refer to a character with a mark. Abbadon has a mark, he has a mark x4.

By the RAW he can not join a squad with an opposing mark.

Abbadon has the Mark of Khorne, and three other marks. Abbadon can not join a unit with the mark of nurgle because Abbadon has 1 mark that is the same, but 3 that are different.

 Shandara wrote:
It depends on what you consider different.
To me, it means 'diferent from the marks Abaddon has'.

Than certainly they're different as Abby has A,B,C,D Squad 4 only has C. Abby has Different via A,B,D

If the Squad has Mark A, it doesn't matter that Abbaddon has Mark A. What matters is that he also has Mark B, C, and D.


If the rule had been "A character can only join a marked squad if he has the same Mark" we would be fine. but instead it is the opposite requirement.

The rules only state a mark... By RAW he has all four so he can join any unit.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The rules only state a mark... By RAW he has all four so he can join any unit.

That works both ways.
He has a Mark of Khorne, a Mark of Nurgle...
He has a Mark of Khorne, which is different from the units Mark of Slaanesh.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The rules only state a mark... By RAW he has all four so he can join any unit.

If you would like to go that route, actually Abby has A Mark of Chaos Ascendant which is different from any other Mark out there so by your logic, No Abby cannot join any Marked squad.

Abby can only join an un-marked squad at the present time. Which is hilarious.

Unfortunately, as written, Abbadon is stuck joining vanilla Troops or Terminators, or Chosen which count as Troops. So you could put him with 4 melta guns and some power fists in a Land Raider. I think they'll FAQ this soon, as that's just stupid that the Warmaster can't join any Marked units. But maybe that was their intention to limit his awesomeness.

Anyone tried him with Huron Blackheart? He doesn't have a Mark.

40k-noob wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The rules only state a mark... By RAW he has all four so he can join any unit.

If you would like to go that route, actually Abby has A Mark of Chaos Ascendant which is different from any other Mark out there so by your logic, No Abby cannot join any Marked squad.

Fluff =\= Rules

 Dozer Blades wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The rules only state a mark... By RAW he has all four so he can join any unit.

If you would like to go that route, actually Abby has A Mark of Chaos Ascendant which is different from any other Mark out there so by your logic, No Abby cannot join any Marked squad.

Fluff =\= Rules

You should READ the codex.

It is not Fluff. It is HIS Mark.
page 57 of the Codex.

I have it. He has all four marks.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I have it. He has all four marks.

Yep, all 4 marks

A mark of Khorne
A mark of Slannesh
A mark of Tzeentch
A mark of Nurgle

So yes he will always have a different mark, if the unit itself has a mark.

JD - I wouldnt bother arguing, we've been over this before and no matter how many times you prove that he will ALWAYS have a different mark to the unit he is attempting to join, certain posters will disagree, without providng any rules.

Its obvious that he should have been allowed to join any unit but as nos stated its been discussed many times and he currently can not join units unless unmarked.

The rule say a character with A mark. Abbadon has four marks so it doesn't apply to him. That is totally RAW too.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The rule say a character with A mark. Abbadon has four marks so it doesn't apply to him. That is totally RAW too.

If you feel that way, do try to back it up than.
Feel free to explain out your ideas and such.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
JD - I wouldnt bother arguing, we've been over this before and no matter how many times you prove that he will ALWAYS have a different mark to the unit he is attempting to join, certain posters will disagree, without providng any rules.

Yea, tis true. Maybe it's troll season.

Looking at it, I can find some RAW support to Dozer Blades' position, but I think it might be stretching it:
1.When an option is listed, such as a gift of mutation, it says they "may take a gift of mutation". This is generally interpreted to mean only one. You can't take 4 gifts of mutation, paying 40 pts, and saying "I took a gift of mutation, four times." So "a" != four.
2.The "Marks of Chaos" referred to on Pg. 30 are only the marks listed there. The "Mark of Chaos Ascendant" is thus not a "Mark of Chaos", and is not itself referenced by the restriction on Pg. 30.
Therefore, Abaddon does not fall under the restrictions on Pg. 30, and can join any squad. If that's the equivalency, I'd rather have Abaddon joining no Marked squads, and getting 4 gifts.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The rule say a character with A mark. Abbadon has four marks so it doesn't apply to him. That is totally RAW too.

"A" need not be limiting to "a single" or "one".

Having 4 marks means you do, indeed, have A mark. Nothing stops you having A mark by having 4.

Case yet again disproven, waiting for this to be aignored by certain posters again

It is illegal to carry a pistol.

I guess I'm safe - I'm carrying 4.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
It is illegal to carry a pistol.

I guess I'm safe - I'm carrying 4.

+1 Internet to this guy.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
It is illegal to carry a pistol.

I guess I'm safe - I'm carrying 4.

Actually, to avoid ambiguities, those laws are normally written "one or more" or "any", not "a".
Has no one addressed giving a champion "a gift of mutation"? So I am safe to give him four then, right?

kaisshau wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
It is illegal to carry a pistol.

I guess I'm safe - I'm carrying 4.

Actually, to avoid ambiguities, those laws are normally written "one or more" or "any", not "a".
Has no one addressed giving a champion "a gift of mutation"? So I am safe to give him four then, right?

I believe that has been covered plenty, but by some peoples interpretation you can lol. ALthough the consensus is obviously that does not work!

Sorry abbadon. No marked units for you!

My question is, why does "a" in the gift of mutation option mean only one, but the "a" in the Marks of Chaos means more than one?

kaisshau wrote:
My question is, why does "a" in the gift of mutation option mean only one, but the "a" in the Marks of Chaos means more than one?

You're only allowed to buy "a gift of mutation", so once you've bought it you've already bought "a gift of mutation". You don't have permission to buy it more than once, so you can't. Conversely, Abaddon has a Mark of Chaos.

Are you agreeing with me then, that "a" always means "one"?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

kaisshau wrote:
My question is, why does "a" in the gift of mutation option mean only one, but the "a" in the Marks of Chaos means more than one?

You're only allowed to buy "a gift of mutation", so once you've bought it you've already bought "a gift of mutation". You don't have permission to buy it more than once, so you can't. Conversely, Abaddon has a Mark of Chaos.

By that note, aren't you only allowed to buy "a mark of chaos"? I don't have my codex on me, but I believe I'm not allowed to have a Nurgle/Slaaneshi marked Lord...

No, you buy a specific Mark from the Mark of Chaos list - a Mark of Nurgle, etc.

rigeld2 wrote:
No, you buy a specific Mark from the Mark of Chaos list - a Mark of Nurgle, etc.

But I still can't purchase more than one mark correct?

Correct - the Lords entry specifies single.

kaisshau wrote:
Are you agreeing with me then, that "a" always means "one"?

No, did you not read my post? Abaddon has a Mark of Chaos, but you're not allowed to buy more than one Gift of Mutation since you don't have permission to buy more than one. You're allowed to take a Gift of Mutation; when going from no Gifts to A Gift it's OK, but if you try to buy another you'd run into the fact that you've already purchased a Gift of Mutation and as such aren't allowed to buy another.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

kaisshau wrote:
Are you agreeing with me then, that "a" always means "one"?

No, did you not read my post? Abaddon has a Mark of Chaos, but you're not allowed to buy more than one Gift of Mutation since you don't have permission to buy more than one. You're allowed to take a Gift of Mutation; when going from no Gifts to A Gift it's OK, but if you try to buy another you'd run into the fact that you've already purchased a Gift of Mutation and as such aren't allowed to buy another.

The same holds true with the marks of chaos though. You can't go and buy a second mark of chaos, because you've already purchased a mark. Abaddon breaks that rule with a mark that cannot be purchased. Though by that line of thought, Abaddon could only ever join unmarked units since no one else could purchase a Mark of Chaos Ascendant. Which to be fair is the RAW interpretation.

I'd just like a solid answer so I know if I'm putting Abby with unmarked termies, or if I can spice things up in his life.

Abbadon doesn't have a "Mark of Chaos". The Mark of Chaos Ascendant is not listed on page 91, 30, or 104. It is completely separate and distinct from a "Mark of Chaos". Thus, that mark specifically is not dealt with by the restrictions on page 30.

It comes down to this. Is having four Marks of Chaos the same as having "a" Mark of Chaos? If yes, then I can purchase multiple gifts of mutation for a champion. If "a" equals four when determining marks, "a" equals four when determining if I purchased "a" gift of mutation. Most other options say "a single" or "up to one/two/four". This is one of the only upgrades that doesn't. It doesn't say, as Melta-bombs do, that the champion "may take gift of mutation", or, as Warp Talons have "take up to two gifts of mutation", or, as lords have for Marks, "may take a single Mark of Chaos". If I take four gifts of mutation, have I taken "a gift of mutation"? If Abaddon has "a Mark of Chaos", then I have taken "a gift of mutation".

Except the rules for it are "He has all 4 Marks" which would put us back to where he will always have a different Mark from any marked unit.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Except the rules for it are "He has all 4 Marks" which would put us back to where he will always have a different Mark from any marked unit.

Yes, but the restriction on Pg. 30 says "Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos". If "a" means one and only one, it doesn't apply to Abaddon. If "a" means at least one, then purchasing "a" gift of mutation, 4 (or 40) times is allowed.

kaisshau wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Except the rules for it are "He has all 4 Marks" which would put us back to where he will always have a different Mark from any marked unit.

Yes, but the restriction on Pg. 30 says "Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos". If "a" means one and only one, it doesn't apply to Abaddon. If "a" means at least one, then purchasing "a" gift of mutation, 4 (or 40) times is allowed.

"a" in this case doesn't mean if the Character has one mark. It means if he has a mark.

Does abbaddon have a mark? yes, in fact he has all 4 marks.


Do I own a car?

Yes, in fact I own 2 cars!

A character with only one mark obviously doesn't have multiples while on the other hand Abbadon has more then one... So the rule doesn't apply to him. I doubt few people will play it that he can't join a marked squad nor do I believe that was the intent.

Again, you have zero evidence that the rule only applies to a character with one mark. The context of the sentence is clear that it applies to Abbaddon.

It may have been unintentional but the english is quite clear on this.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
A character with only one mark obviously doesn't have multiples while on the other hand Abbadon has more then one... So the rule doesn't apply to him. I doubt few people will play it that he can't join a marked squad nor do I believe that was the intent.

"A" means at least one singulr item, but as another poster provided,
Do you. Have a computer?
Yes, i have two of them.

That is a legal usage of the wording. Now, abbadon has 4 marks. The unit has 1. Does abbadon have "at least one" mark? Yes he does, he has four, three of which are different than the units. So he can not join.

This is silly, to be honest. I have already posted the answer to this topic and there are numerous other thrrads covering it. I would like to request a mod or someone close this one; we dont need redundancy, snd Dozer Blades doesnt seem to know what RAW is, so we could be here a while otherwise.

I disagree with what you say is RAW. You are using language to derive an unintended result.

I just thought I'd put in my two cents on this..

Last edition it was stated as well that Abaddon had all 4 marks of chaos, although, they were not singularly listed as individual marks.

Simply put, the effects of all 4 marks are granted through the "Mark of Chaos Ascendant" special rule stating that he has all four marks, but under his wargear, listed as "Mark of Chaos Ascendant" granting the effects of all four marks, without the clash of each mark inherently brings by rules as written.

Therefore, (and mind you this is also what about 2 dozen other people I play with as well also believe and follow, never singularly ever having an issue in a game) the "Mark of Chaos Ascendant" incurs the effects of all 4 marks upon Abaddon, without incurring the negative effects which is why it alone is a unique special rule specifically crafted for the Warmaster that no other character within the codex has.

To me, it's almost pretty obvious they intended him to be able to join any squad he wants (he IS the warmaster, after all)

Unfortunately, typical poor rule writing lead to the opposite effect and this argument over it.

Honestly, I would let him join any squad if the Chaos player wanted him to. Then again, my group plays a lot of RAI

 washout77 wrote:
To me, it's almost pretty obvious they intended him to be able to join any squad he wants (he IS the warmaster, after all)

Unfortunately, typical poor rule writing lead to the opposite effect and this argument over it.

Honestly, I would let him join any squad if the Chaos player wanted him to. Then again, my group plays a lot of RAI

The problem with the "intended him to be able to join any squad" is that he's the Warmaster of the Black Legion, joining a single, specific deity's cult troops might show favoritism and cause resentment amongst the gossip mill that is the 4 Chaos Gods.

But then again full doesn't equal rules. I honestly don't care as I don't play tournaments and don't run Abby regularly, but I couldn't care less how my opponent plays it.

This thread seems kind of silly, its Abaddon... if he strode up to anyone aligned to chaos no matter who they worship and said ' I'm taking charge.' do you think a lowly group of marines dedicated to nurgle or tzeentch would be say umm no ? Abaddon is the warmaster as stated. He has all four marks and it doesnt say anywhere that he cant join any unit. so im all ???

I reckon this one will go four more pages and then be locked......this is always a great thread

 Frecklesonfire wrote:
This thread seems kind of silly, its Abaddon... if he strode up to anyone aligned to chaos no matter who they worship and said ' I'm taking charge.' do you think a lowly group of marines dedicated to nurgle or tzeentch would be say umm no ? Abaddon is the warmaster as stated. He has all four marks and it doesnt say anywhere that he cant join any unit. so im all ???

Actually, it says that marks can't be different would prevent Abby from technically joining anyone... And I believe Insaniak has said in one of these threads, this game is about permission, if you don't have permission to do it, you can't do it. Abby doesn't have explicit permission to ignore the different marked unit rule, so you must follow it.

Neronoxx wrote:
This has been argued a billion times and we don't need another thread about it.

Short story; you got two options
RAW he cannot join any marked squad as the rules for joining marked squads prevents him from doing this.
RAI he can join any squad because he has all four and is the warmaster.
That's it. No more discussion please. Its been argued over enough. Use the search button if you have more questions.

This. SO this.

Can we move on from this thread please?

I have a hard time with this ruling. If Abby wants to join berserkers, his mark of khorne is not different than their mark of khorne. They do not have a different mark then him. If they had the mark of chaos undivided on the other hand they would have a different mark then him.

Perhaps I misread the rule, but the unit must not have the different mark, not him, correct? And because there is only 4 marks, no marked unit will have a different mark than him. He may have a different mark then they do, by virtue of multiple marks, but we are looking at the unit.

Abby has four marks, K, S, T, N

Zerkers have Mark K

Both Abby and Zerkers have Mark K, but Abby also has Marks S, T, and N, which Zerkers do not have.

That's where the breakdown occurs. The unit has a different mark 3 times for every 1 time they have a similar mark.

kaisshau wrote:It comes down to this. Is having four Marks of Chaos the same as having "a" Mark of Chaos?

Of course having 4 marks is not the same as having one. That's not the issue.

If you have a Mark of Chaos, then you have a Mark of Chaos.

If you have two Marks of Chaos, then you have a Mark of Chaos. That doesn't mean that you're the same as someone with one... you clearly have two. But a Mark of Chaos belongs to you, so you have a Mark of Chaos. You can be described either as someone with 2 Marks, or as someone with a Mark.

'a' never equals '4'... It only ever means one. But in one usage - 'may select a' - it is limiting, while in another usage - 'has a' - it is simply descriptive. Blame it on the vagaries of the English language.

Dozer Blades wrote:The rules only state a mark... By RAW he has all four so he can join any unit.

An ork unit that has a Waaagh Banner gains +1 to their WS.

If the unit has 4 Waaagh banners, what happens?

That's out of context.

Lots of waaaaaaaaargh?

 Dozer Blades wrote:
That's out of context.

No, it's the exact same situation.

Please answer the question.

It is out of context as they fulfill completely different roles.

Its the same situation. Unit X has 4 of Y. rule says if unit has a Y then Z.

You state that because Abaddon (X) has 4 Marks (Y) then the rule disallowing him from joining a marked unit if they do not have the same marks (Z) does not appty.

But we know that if a nob unit (X) had 4 waagh banners (Y) then they would get +1WS (Z) the rule still applies

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It is out of context as they fulfill completely different roles.

You what now? The role a unit fulfils changes the meaning of a piece of text now?


You're going to need to explain that one, methinks.

Again, isn't the unit the only mark that matters?

Abbadon "may not join a unit with a different mark."

Is the khorne berserkers mark different from abbadon? They have the mark of khorne, he has the mark of khorne. If you have sections for protein, carbohydrate, and fats and can not put a food in a section with a different type, a food like breaded chicken that is all 3 can go in any section as it is a protein, carb and fatty food.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It is out of context as they fulfill completely different roles.

Troll season. No bag limit thru New Years.

DevianID wrote:
Is the khorne berserkers mark different from abbadon?

Since they don't have the Mark of Slaanesh, yes.

While they don't have the mark of slaneesh, absence of a mark on a unit does not preclude joining it. An unmarked squad does not have the mark of slaneesh either after all, and abandon is allowed to join them.

DevianID wrote:
While they don't have the mark of slaneesh, absence of a mark on a unit does not preclude joining it. An unmarked squad does not have the mark of slaneesh either after all, and abandon is allowed to join them.

Absence of a mark on a unit DOES preclude someone WITH that mark from joining it.

So a character with the mark of slaneesh can not join an unmarked squad?

DevianID wrote:
While they don't have the mark of slaneesh, absence of a mark on a unit does not preclude joining it.

No, but having a different mark does. Abaddon has the Mark of Slaanesh. Berzerkers have the Mark of Khorne. Those Marks are different.

DevianID wrote:
So a character with the mark of slaneesh can not join an unmarked squad?

No, because that unit does not have another Mark, and as such does not fulfil the criteria of the special rule preventing the IC from joining the unit. I was referring to this particular case.

The issue is the units mark, not abbadons additional marks. We know that a unit not having a mark is not enough for the character to be prohibited. They have the same mark.

The error I think you guys are making is that while you agree he has the same mark as berserkers, you are also saying that he is joining a unit with a different mark. He is not. The opposite its true, the unit is being joined by a character with a different mark, but there its no restriction that direction.

Think about other examples. You may not put a CD on a shelf with different styles. If a CD is both country and rock, it can go on a shelf of either country or rock, but the rock shelf could not be moved to a country and rock shelf. The shelf determines the restrictions, not the cd.

Abbadons Christmas jams vol1 is a little bit country and a little bit rock and roll. He can go on either shelf, as the restriction is based on the shelf, not the CD.

DevianID wrote:
The issue is the units mark, not abbadons additional marks.

No, the issue is that the IC can not join a unit with a different mark.

Abaddon has (amongst other things) the Mark of Slaanesh. Berzerkers have a different Mark.

Think about other examples. You may not put a CD on a shelf with different styles. If a CD is both country and rock, it can go on a shelf of either country or rock, ....

Given your restriction, I would disagree. This has the same problem as Abaddon does. Yes, the CD is rock... but it's also Country, and so can not go on the Rock shelf.

I think this will be locked soon.....it's a pointless argument because its raw vs rai......you will never be able to resolve it until a FAQ is issued. If you played against me I would let abandon join any unit period......but other people see it different.

Lets wait and see when it gets FAQ updated

Abaddon has (amongst other things) the Mark of Slaanesh. Berzerkers have a different Mark.

This is the issue here. What is the mark that Berserkers have that is different from Abbadon? They only have the Mark of Khorne, and their mark of Khorne is not different from Abbadon's mark of Khorne--infact the unit has the same mark as him.

Apples can go into a fruit bin, but not all fruit can go into an apple bin. Abbadon IS an apple, as well as an orange, coconut and pear. Abbadon can go into an apple bin, because he is an apple. An apple can not go into an Abbadon bin, but that is irrelevent because the restriction is on the apple bin.

DevianID wrote:
Apples can go into a fruit bin, but not all fruit can go into an apple bin. Abbadon IS an apple, as well as an orange, coconut and pear.

So if you put him in the apple bin, you'll have people asking what this orange, coconut and pear are doing in there...

So if you put him in the apple bin, you'll have people asking what this orange, coconut and pear are doing in there...

is he not an apple?

That's just it - he is definitely an apple.

DevianID wrote:

So if you put him in the apple bin, you'll have people asking what this orange, coconut and pear are doing in there...

is he not an apple?

No. He's some freakish hybrid of apple, orange, coconut and pear, apparently. Which definitely has no place in amongst the apples.

Insaniak, thats just it... its not a hybrid mark or fruit or whatever, Abbadon is 4 seperate things at once. Normally its impossible but he is obviously special.

You say he is a hybrid apple thing, aka a 5th mark, but this is not the case. He is marked khorne, and he has the same mark as a unit of berserkers. The fact that he is other things, or could be in a different squad, does not matter. All that matters is what one singular squad he is in now.

Consider another chaos lord with the mark of khorne.

You say abbadon can not join the chaos lord with the mark of khorne, because the lord with the mark of khorne has a different mark than Abbadon. This is false, as the lord's singular mark is the same mark that abbadon has--the khorne lord does not have a different mark at all.

However, the reverse is true. The chaos lord with the mark of khorne can not join abbadon, as Abbadon has a different mark than the character who wishes to join him has.

The question is simple... what mark does the unit the character wish to join have? Is that unit's mark different from the marks that abbadon has?

I do understand what you are trying to say. You are trying to say that the units mark of khorne is different from abbadon's other marks, but the restriction doesnt work that way. He can not join a unit with a different mark, but the unit has the same mark as him--the mark of khorne.

DevianID wrote:
You say he is a hybrid apple thing, aka a 5th mark, but this is not the case.

It was your analogy. I just ran with it.

He is marked khorne, and he has the same mark as a unit of berserkers. The fact that he is other things, or could be in a different squad, does not matter. All that matters is what one singular squad he is in now.

The problem with that is that the rules don't tell us to ignore his other marks.

Yes, he has one mark that is the same as the unit he is joining. But he also has other marks... and nothing in the rules tells you that you only choose to compare a single mark in order to determine if they match.

You say abbadon can not join the chaos lord with the mark of khorne, because the lord with the mark of khorne has a different mark than Abbadon. This is false, as the lord's singular mark is the same mark that abbadon has--

Which one?

On what basis are you picking and choosing which mark is the same?

Abbadon (an independant character with a mark of chaos) "may not join a unit with a different mark of chaos." The mark of khorne is not a different mark of chaos.

The mark of slaneesh is different from the mark of khorne, but the rule doesnt say 'An independent character with the mark of slaneesh may not join a unit with a different mark than the mark of slaneesh.'

The unit does not have a different mark of chaos than abbadon. The unit has the mark of Khorne. This is the same mark that abbadon has.

Abbadon fits the first subject line in the rule as he is "an independant character with a mark of chaos." It doesnt matter what mark or mark he has at this point, only that the IC is marked. Subbing in for abbadon, it reads 'An independant character with the mark of khorne and slaneesh and tzeentch and nurgle."

The second subject is "a unit with a different mark of chaos." Again, the mark is not specific, it just needs to be different than whatever the character has. In the case of Abbadon, a unit with the mark of khorne is not a unit with a different mark of chaos, as Khorne is one of the marks that abbadon has concurrently with the others.

Except it's not called the Mark of Khorne / Slanesh / Tzeentch Nurgle, it's called the Mark of the Chaos Ascendant...

He nowhere in his profile is stated to have each and all marks separately, but in something unique that is stated to grant the same effect...

Why all the hate on poor Abaddon?

GoliothOnline wrote:
Except it's not called the Mark of Khorne / Slanesh / Tzeentch Nurgle, it's called the Mark of the Chaos Ascendant...

He nowhere in his profile is stated to have each and all marks separately, but in something unique that is stated to grant the same effect...

Why all the hate on poor Abaddon?

It's not hate for Abby, Insaniak argues for RAW, since that is what you're supposed to do, I've gotten into heated arguments with him in YMDC before, it's never anything personal, it's just you need to learn that YMDC runs on RAW... and even by RAW standards, it is in the tenets of YMDC in the stickied section.

DevianID wrote:The unit does not have a different mark of chaos than abbadon. The unit has the mark of Khorne. This is the same mark that abbadon has.

It's one of the marks that he has... but again, what allows you to ignore the others?

You're choosing to only compare the mark that is the same. Why is that more valid than comparing one of his other marks?

GoliothOnline wrote:Except it's not called the Mark of Khorne / Slanesh / Tzeentch Nurgle, it's called the Mark of the Chaos Ascendant...

He nowhere in his profile is stated to have each and all marks separately, but in something unique that is stated to grant the same effect...

Excellent. So Abbadon can join unmarked units, or units with the Mark of Chaos Ascendant.

Or is that not quite what you were going for...

Considering the effects and only the effects of each Mark are listed to be granted to Abaddon and not the actual title of each mark, I'm pretty sure that means he has no issue joining any group otherwise the Mark of Chaos Ascendant would be listing each mark individually




Automatically Appended Next Post:
And since the Mark of Chaos Ascendant doesn't specify that it itself conflicts with any of the actual marks, nor do the marks of chaos apply to the Mark of Chaos Ascendant disallowing this specific mark to be allowed to join any unit that has a mark itself, he is inherently fine to do and go as he pleases.

GoliothOnline wrote:
Considering the effects and only the effects of each Mark are listed to be granted to Abaddon and not the actual title of each mark, I'm pretty sure that means he has no issue joining any group otherwise the Mark of Chaos Ascendant would be listing each mark individually

A Marked IC can't join a unit with a different Mark... so if you're going to argue that his Mark is the Mark of Chaos Ascendant, how can he ever join any other Marked unit?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GoliothOnline wrote:
And since the Mark of Chaos Ascendant doesn't specify that it itself conflicts with any of the actual marks, nor do the marks of chaos apply to the Mark of Chaos Ascendant disallowing this specific mark to be allowed to join any unit that has a mark itself, he is inherently fine to do and go as he pleases.

Sorry, but... what?

Lets put this into another consideration as to why he has only the effects of each mark and not individually each mark..

If Abaddon had the mark of Khorne, wouldnt he also have Rage and Counter attack?

GoliothOnline wrote:
Lets put this into another consideration as to why he has only the effects of each mark and not individually each mark..

If Abaddon had the mark of Khorne, wouldnt he also have Rage and Counter attack?

Even if that's the case, look at it this way... You still have a Mark of Chaos (on the unit) and a Mark of Chaos Ascendant on abby...

Last I checked, Mark of the Chaos Ascendant is not listed as a "mark of chaos" under the rules on page 30 and it itself is simply a special rule coincidentally using the word "Mark" within it's title.

Golloth is correct. The Mark of Chaos Ascendant rules state that "He also has all four Marks of Chaos." Which implies two things. One, the Mark of Chaos Ascendant is not a "Mark of Chaos". And two, he does actually have all four Marks.

GoliothOnline wrote:
Last I checked, Mark of the Chaos Ascendant is not listed as a "mark of chaos" under the rules on page 30 and it itself is simply a special rule coincidentally using the word "Mark" within it's title.

Page 57: "He also has all four Marks of Chaos. Note that, due to Mark of Tzeentch..."

That's the important part of his Mark of Chaos Ascendant. Abby has all four marks simultaneously. His Toughness, Initiative, and his save are all located in his profile. The Mark of Khorne doesn't do anything to his stats or saves, just grants him Universal Special Rules.

Edit: Ninja'd

In regards to MoK he has Rage and Counter Attack - I've asked that here before and didn't get any pushback.

Can't say he does, sorry.

His profile clearly states that he doesn't have Rage, nor Counter attack =/

Therefore, Abaddon is equip with Mark of the Chaos Ascendant which is a special rule stating he has all the marks of chaos without the actual title to having each mark of chaos within his profile, which also means he is free to join any squad with a singular mark of chaos since Mark of Chaos Ascendant itself, as stated within the chart on Pg.30 ISN'T a mark of chaos

GoliothOnline wrote:
Therefore, Abaddon is equip with Mark of the Chaos Ascendant which is a special rule stating he has all the marks of chaos without the actual title to having each mark of chaos within his profile, ...

If it says that he has all four marks, then he has all four marks. It doesn't matter whether all 4 are listed in his profile... that's covered by the Mark Ascendant.

You're trying to turn 'has all four marks' into 'gains the benefits of all four marks but doesn't actually have them...'

Abaddon has all four Marks of Chaos. There is no way around that. The question is, what does the restriction refer to, when it says "a Mark of Chaos"? Generally, this is understood to be one (may take "a" gift of mutation, "a" model may swap their weapon for X,Y,Z). However, the argument is that in this case, "a" extends to mean "one or more", while in the other cases, it means "one and only one".

Why this case is unique, I have yet to receive a proper answer for.

MoK doesn't buff the stat line like the other marks... You could try to make the same argument for Berserkers or Kharn. I think it's safe to say he counts as having each mark... He is T5 due to MoK, I6 due to MoS and 4++ due to MoT. To say he doesn't have Rage and Counter Attack makes his MoK superfluous. It is only spelled out explicitly how he is buffed by MoT but the other three are all in affect as well... If not he'd had the same stat line for the most part as a Chaos Lord besides WS7 and an additional wound.

kaisshau wrote:
Why this case is unique, I have yet to receive a proper answer for.

You've had an answer: You're trying to twist the language in directions it doesn't actually go.

The fact that 'a' is singular is completely irrrelevant to this particular situation. If a character has at least one mark, then that character has a mark.

 insaniak wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:
Therefore, Abaddon is equip with Mark of the Chaos Ascendant which is a special rule stating he has all the marks of chaos without the actual title to having each mark of chaos within his profile, ...

If it says that he has all four marks, then he has all four marks. It doesn't matter whether all 4 are listed in his profile... that's covered by the Mark Ascendant.

You're trying to turn 'has all four marks' into 'gains the benefits of all four marks but doesn't actually have them...'

RAW he has Mark of Chaos Ascendant, which clearly states he has all the marks under its special rule, yet for some reason he himself doesn't gain the benefit from each mark..

So RAW, he has Mark of Chaos Ascendant and nothing more since it's a sub-sect to the rule stating he has the marks yet not the titles,

RAI simply don't matter anymore until it's FAQ'd since he doesn't have any of the 4 marks listed in his profile, nor benefiting from any of the marks individually as the special rule of Mark of Chaos Ascendant clearly states it itself is granting the benefit from the mark of Tzeentch to grand Abaddon +1 invuln save to his terminator armor, and nothing more.

 insaniak wrote:

kaisshau wrote:
Why this case is unique, I have yet to receive a proper answer for.

You've had an answer: You're trying to twist the language in directions it doesn't actually go.

The fact that 'a' is singular is completely irrrelevant to this particular situation. If a character has at least one mark, then that character has a mark.

So, what you're saying is that the rule on Pg. 30 should be read as "An Independent Character with one or more Mark(s) of Chaos may not join one or more unit(s) with one or more different Mark(s) of Chaos."

Is that about right?

kaisshau wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

kaisshau wrote:
Why this case is unique, I have yet to receive a proper answer for.

You've had an answer: You're trying to twist the language in directions it doesn't actually go.

The fact that 'a' is singular is completely irrrelevant to this particular situation. If a character has at least one mark, then that character has a mark.

So, what you're saying is that the rule on Pg. 30 should be read as "An Independent Character with one or more Mark(s) of Chaos may not join one or more unit(s) with one or more different Mark(s) of Chaos."

Is that about right?

Yes, basically. Because that's what 'a' means in this context. In fact, one of the definitions of the word 'a' is "any" so you could read it as "An independent character with any Mark of Chaos may not join any unit with any different Mark of Chaos."

kaisshau wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

kaisshau wrote:
Why this case is unique, I have yet to receive a proper answer for.

You've had an answer: You're trying to twist the language in directions it doesn't actually go.

The fact that 'a' is singular is completely irrrelevant to this particular situation. If a character has at least one mark, then that character has a mark.

So, what you're saying is that the rule on Pg. 30 should be read as "An Independent Character with one or more Mark(s) of Chaos may not join one or more unit(s) with one or more different Mark(s) of Chaos."

Is that about right?

Nope, the rules clearly state that no one is ever allowed to have more than 1 mark of chaos at any given time. The rules on page 30 are clear as rain.

The special rule under Abaddon's profile states he has Mark of Chaos Ascendant granting him all four marks, yet he technically doesn't have them as they are not within his special rules themselves and under a separate rule which it, itself, isn't a mark of chaos.

GoliothOnline wrote:

kaisshau wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

kaisshau wrote:
Why this case is unique, I have yet to receive a proper answer for.

You've had an answer: You're trying to twist the language in directions it doesn't actually go.

The fact that 'a' is singular is completely irrrelevant to this particular situation. If a character has at least one mark, then that character has a mark.

So, what you're saying is that the rule on Pg. 30 should be read as "An Independent Character with one or more Mark(s) of Chaos may not join one or more unit(s) with one or more different Mark(s) of Chaos."

Is that about right?

Nope, the rules clearly state that no one is ever allowed to have more than 1 mark of chaos at any given time. The rules on page 30 are clear as rain.

The special rule under Abaddon's profile states he has Mark of Chaos Ascendant granting him all four marks, yet he technically doesn't have them as they are not within his special rules themselves and under a separate rule which it, itself, isn't a mark of chaos.

But it, itself, does say he has all four Marks. Therefore, by denying that he has any Marks, then you are outright contradicting a written-in-ink rule

Well actually, im not denying he has the marks at all, im simply stating that he has the Mark of Chaos Ascendant granting him as a special rule of all four marks, yet not allowing for the marks to interject with one another as they are within the special rule OF Mark of Chaos Ascendant.

GoliothOnline wrote:

Nope, the rules clearly state that no one is ever allowed to have more than 1 mark of chaos at any given time. The rules on page 30 are clear as rain.

The special rule under Abaddon's profile states he has Mark of Chaos Ascendant granting him all four marks, yet he technically doesn't have them as they are not within his special rules themselves and under a separate rule which it, itself, isn't a mark of chaos.

The rule says no model may purchase more than one mark. Abaddon doesn't purchase them. He just has them.

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yes, basically. Because that's what 'a' means in this context. In fact, one of the definitions of the word 'a' is "any" so you could read it as "An independent character with any Mark of Chaos may not join any unit with any different Mark of Chaos."

So, why is the gift of mutation option not interpreted as "May purchase one or more gift of mutation(s)"? Same codex, same wording, different result?

kaisshau wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:

Nope, the rules clearly state that no one is ever allowed to have more than 1 mark of chaos at any given time. The rules on page 30 are clear as rain.

The special rule under Abaddon's profile states he has Mark of Chaos Ascendant granting him all four marks, yet he technically doesn't have them as they are not within his special rules themselves and under a separate rule which it, itself, isn't a mark of chaos.

The rule says no model may purchase more than one mark. Abaddon doesn't purchase them. He just has them.

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yes, basically. Because that's what 'a' means in this context. In fact, one of the definitions of the word 'a' is "any" so you could read it as "An independent character with any Mark of Chaos may not join any unit with any different Mark of Chaos."

So, why is the gift of mutation option not interpreted as "May purchase one or more gift of mutation(s)"? Same codex, same wording, different result?

Well, "one-or-more" isn't in the definition of "a" but "any" is, hence my clarification of your statement.

In the case of "gift of mutation" you may purchase any gift of mutation. - which doesn't make sense. So clearly we use a different definition of "a".

GoliothOnline wrote:RAW he has Mark of Chaos Ascendant, which clearly states he has all the marks under its special rule, yet for some reason he himself doesn't gain the benefit from each mark..

So RAW, he has Mark of Chaos Ascendant and nothing more since it's a sub-sect to the rule stating he has the marks yet not the titles,

No, by RAW he has all four marks, because Chaos Ascendant says he does. Whether or not he gains the benefits of those marks is irrelevant... he still has them, because his rules say he does.

kaisshau wrote:So, what you're saying is that the rule on Pg. 30 should be read as "An Independent Character with one or more Mark(s) of Chaos may not join one or more unit(s) with one or more different Mark(s) of Chaos."

Is that about right?

No. What I'm saying is that the rule is asking if there is a mark present. The actual number of marks is irrelevant. If you can point to something that is a mark, then there is a mark there.

kaisshau wrote:So, why is the gift of mutation option not interpreted as "May purchase one or more gift of mutation(s)"? Same codex, same wording, different result?

Because you're not given permission to select more then one.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

kaisshau wrote:
So, why is the gift of mutation option not interpreted as "May purchase one or more gift of mutation(s)"? Same codex, same wording, different result?

Well, "one-or-more" isn't in the definition of "a" but "any" is, hence my clarification of your statement.

In the case of "gift of mutation" you may purchase any gift of mutation. - which doesn't make sense. So clearly we use a different definition of "a".

The definitions of "a" are:
1. not any particular or certain one of a class or group
2. a certain; a particular
3. another; one typically resembling

You want to use definition 1 when referring to Abaddon, and definition 2 when referring to gift of mutation. Definition 1 works with "a gift of mutation", and would allow the selection of multiples.

insaniak wrote:

kaisshau wrote:So, what you're saying is that the rule on Pg. 30 should be read as "An Independent Character with one or more Mark(s) of Chaos may not join one or more unit(s) with one or more different Mark(s) of Chaos."
Is that about right?

No. What I'm saying is that the rule is asking if there is a mark present. The actual number of marks is irrelevant. If you can point to something that is a mark, then there is a mark there.

So here, we define "a" to mean "one or more".

insaniak wrote:

kaisshau wrote:So, why is the gift of mutation option not interpreted as "May purchase one or more gift of mutation(s)"? Same codex, same wording, different result?

Because you're not given permission to select more then one.

We've previously defined "a" as meaning "one or more". Therefore, permission to select "a gift of mutation" would be permission to select "one or more" gift of mutation. Why does the meaning change here? Where in the RAW does it state that when referring to "a Mark of Chaos", it means "one or more", but when we have "a gift of mutation", it means "only one"?

"An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos."

Does Abbadon have a mark of Chaos? Yes he has all 4 of them.

Does the unit Abbadon is trying to join have a different Mark of Chaos?

If yes then he can not join, as Abbadon has 4 marks of chaos he will always have a different mark than any unit with any mark, unless they have all four marks of chaos.

If no, they do not have a mark, and he can join them.

 insaniak wrote:

DevianID wrote:
Think about other examples. You may not put a CD on a shelf with different styles. If a CD is both country and rock, it can go on a shelf of either country or rock, ....

Given your restriction, I would disagree. This has the same problem as Abaddon does. Yes, the CD is rock... but it's also Country, and so can not go on the Rock shelf.

Actually that CD goes on the Rockabilly shelf...

kaisshau wrote:
Why does the meaning change here?

Because words in the english language don't exist in a vaccuum. The meaning depends on the context.


'May select a gift' can only ever mean one.
'

Deathreaper, what mark do berserkers have that is different from Abbadon?

If we go to the analogy, if you have a shirt with red yellow blue and green, and can not join a crowd with a different color on their shirt, can you join someone with a green shirt? Yes, because their shirt its not a different color than yours. The opposite its not true, but the green shirt is not trying to join the multi shirt.

DevianID wrote:
Deathreaper, what mark do berserkers have that is different from Abbadon?

If we go to the analogy, if you have a shirt with red yellow blue and green, and can not join a crowd with a different color on their shirt, can you join someone with a green shirt? Yes, because their shirt its not a different color than yours. The opposite its not true, but the green shirt is not trying to join the multi shirt.

You can't because your shirt is blue. Yes, it's green as well, but why are you arbitrarily picking only one color to compare?

DevianID wrote:
Deathreaper, what mark do berserkers have that is different from Abbadon?

If we go to the analogy, if you have a shirt with red yellow blue and green, and can not join a crowd with a different color on their shirt, can you join someone with a green shirt? Yes, because their shirt its not a different color than yours. The opposite its not true, but the green shirt is not trying to join the multi shirt.

The Berzerkers have the mark of Khorne, which is different from Abbadons mark of nurgle, and Tzeench, and slaanesh. It is the same as his mark of Khorne, but the zerkers have a different mark than Abbadon, as has been proven.

Let's look at a hypothetical:

Abbadon wants to join a squad that also has all four marks. Can he do it?

I'm going to assume that everybody here would say "yes." After all, the squad doesn't have a mark that is different from Abbadon.

Of course, though, Abbadon shouldn't be able to join this squad using the logic most people are using on this thread.

But the rules are clear; the squad doesn't have a different mark. But isn't the squad's mark of Khorne different than Abbadon's mark of Nurgle, etc?

Ridiculous, no doubt. Comparing mark to mark gives an answer that goes against the rules. But then why do that when Abbadon is trying to join a regularly marked squad? The sets of marks are should what is compared.

If you answered 'yes' to the hypothetical, could you explain why the two situations are, and should, be treated differently?

Schrodingers_Kitty wrote:
Comparing mark to mark gives an answer that goes against the rules.

How?

Because if the unit had 4 marks you would use the same logic to say that abbys mark of nurgle is different than the units mark of khorne, and his mark of khorne is different than their mark of nurgle.

Not in that case, because he wouldn't have any different Marks. They would all have the same mark.

I own a 2000 Ford F-150 and a 2010 Prius.

You own a 2010 prius. You do not have a different car then I do. But I do have a different car then you do. I also have the same car as you do, but that doesn't matter.

DevianID wrote:
Because if the unit had 4 marks you would use the same logic to say that abbys mark of nurgle is different than the units mark of khorne, and his mark of khorne is different than their mark of nurgle.

No, you wouldn't.

The point is to match up the marks. If the character and the unit each have a mark, those marks need to match. That's as complicated as it needs to get.



For what it's worth, I fully expect that if this makes it to the FAQ, they will rule that he can join whoever he wants, and that's probably how I would play it as well. It's just not the way I feel that the rules actually read.

Grey templar, your example makes my point. Abby has a f150 and a prius. Berserkers have a prius. Berserkers do not have a different car than Abby.

It's good to see people discussing how they would actually play it now. To me that's often just as important as RAW.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It's good to see people discussing how they would actually play it now. To me that's often just as important as RAW.

You're always welcome to discuss HYWPI in any thread. Just point that out in your post.

 insaniak wrote:

If the character and the unit each have a mark, those marks need to match. That's as complicated as it needs to get.

Reading the rules like that, I can see your confusion, but the marks do not have to be the same. It's that the unit's mark can't be different from the independent character's. On a previous thread, I made an argument from set theory. Allow me to paraphrase it here:

A set {X} is defined as {1,2,3} and a set {Y} as {2,3}. A set difference, {A} \ {B}, would be the members of {A} that are not contained in {B}. So, {X} \ {Y} = {3} while {Y} \ {X} = {}. Meaning that there is a difference between {X} and {Y}, but there isn't a difference between {Y} and {X}.

Neronoxx wrote:
This has been argued a billion times and we don't need another thread about it.

Short story; you got two options
RAW he cannot join any marked squad as the rules for joining marked squads prevents him from doing this.
RAI he can join any squad because he has all four and is the warmaster.
That's it. No more discussion please. Its been argued over enough. Use the search button if you have more questions.

Please, just go by this.

DevianID wrote:
Grey templar, your example makes my point. Abby has a f150 and a prius. Berserkers have a prius. Berserkers do not have a different car than Abby.

However, thats not the rule.

the rule is that the IC can't join a unit if HE has a different mark. Abaddon has a different mark.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It's good to see people discussing how they would actually play it now. To me that's often just as important as RAW.

You're always welcome to discuss HYWPI in any thread. Just point that out in your post.

Thanks! : )

Grey templar, An ic can not join a unit with a different mark. The unit has to have the different mark.

Schrodingers_Kitty wrote:
Let's look at a hypothetical:

Abbadon wants to join a squad that also has all four marks. Can he do it?

I'm going to assume that everybody here would say "yes." After all, the squad doesn't have a mark that is different from Abbadon.

Of course, though, Abbadon shouldn't be able to join this squad using the logic most people are using on this thread.

But the rules are clear; the squad doesn't have a different mark. But isn't the squad's mark of Khorne different than Abbadon's mark of Nurgle, etc?

Ridiculous, no doubt. Comparing mark to mark gives an answer that goes against the rules. But then why do that when Abbadon is trying to join a regularly marked squad? The sets of marks are should what is compared.

If you answered 'yes' to the hypothetical, could you explain why the two situations are, and should, be treated differently?

Hypotheticals are cute, but don't really prove much....
What if Abbadon's rule worked and Gamesworkshop could write?
Obviously a bit or sarcasm, but my point stands.

Abbadon tries to join a squad of khorne termies.
Do both parties have a mark of Khorne? Yes
Do both parties have a mark of nurgle? No.
Do both parties have a mark of Tzeentch? No.
Do both parties have a mark of Slaanesh? No.

Does Abbadon and the Termies have different marks? Yes.
Do they share a mark? Yes.
Does the rule limiting the joining of IC's ask if they share a mark? No.
Does the rule limiting the joing of IC's ask if they have different marks? Yes.
Do they have different marks? Yes.


And to the whole "gift of mutation" debate.
We define "A" as "one or more." This solves the abbadon question.
But then you ask wait, shouldn't that allow me to purchase multiple gifts?
"....may purchase a gift of mutation for x points." This is how the entry reads, yes?
"....may purchase one or more gift of mutation for x points." This is how the updated entry would read.
This allows you to purchase a single mutation, it doesn't allow for the purchase of multiples.

It would need to be worded as follows to allow for multiple gifts...
"....may purchase one or more gifts of mutation for x points."

And it's that simple.....
Just my 2 cents.

Neronoxx wrote:


What if Abbadon's rule worked and Gamesworkshop could write?

Do what?

Neronoxx wrote:

Abbadon tries to join a squad of khorne termies.

Does Abbadon and the Termies have different marks? Yes.
Do they share a mark? Yes.
Does the rule limiting the joining of IC's ask if they share a mark? No.
Does the rule limiting the joing of IC's ask if they have different marks? Yes.
Do they have different marks? Yes.

"Does the rule limiting the joining of ICs ask if they have different marks" is misleading and poorly paraphrased. The limiting condition is the squad's mark being different.

Does the squad have a different mark from Abbadon? No.

Schrodingers_Kitty wrote:
Does the squad have a different mark from Abbadon? No.

So the squads Mark of Khorne is not different from Abbadon's Mark of Slannesh?

Rigeld, your statement is incorrect. Abbadon does not have the mark of slaneesh, he has the mark of slaneesh, tzeentch, nurgle and khorne. The unit does not have a different mark than that. You keep arguing abbadons mark is different. The rules don't care. Is the UNITS mark different. No it is not.

IMO it is.

The rules for marks forbid a squad from being joined by a character with a different mark. This is clearly intended to facilitate marked characters joining unmarked units, and unmarked characters joining any unit they want.

The issue is that Abaddon's rules clearly specify that he has all four marks of chaos. So when he goes to join a marked unit, he always has three different marks than the unit does.

Or, to go back to the beginning...

Neronoxx wrote:This has been argued a billion times and we don't need another thread about it.

Short story; you got two options
RAW he cannot join any marked squad as the rules for joining marked squads prevents him from doing this.
RAI he can join any squad because he has all four and is the warmaster.
That's it. .

Although personally I'm not 100% on RAI. He might not be meant to join marked units, to show that he's above them in not being dedicated to any one god.

He's my take on this.

Kharn want to join some bezerkers. They have a mark of Khorne. He has a mark of khorne. The unit has the same mark as him. He can join them.

Lucius wants to join some bezerkers. They have the mark of khorne. He has the mark of slaanesh. The unit has a different mark. He cannot join them.

Typhus wants to join some bezerkers. They have the mark of khorne. He has the mark of nurgle. The unit has a different mark. He cannot join them.

Ahriman wants to join some bezerkers. They have the mark of khorne. He has the mark of tzeentch. The unit has a different mark. He cannot join them.

Abaddon wants to join some bezerkers. They have the mark of khorne. He has the mark of khorne. He also has the mark of Slaanesh, Nurgle and Tzeentch. The unit has a different mark to Abaddon's mark of slaanesh, nurgle and tzeentch, but the same as his mark of khorne. 3/4 marks are different.. He cannot join them.

Neronoxx wrote:

And to the whole "gift of mutation" debate.
We define "A" as "one or more." This solves the abbadon question.
But then you ask wait, shouldn't that allow me to purchase multiple gifts?
"....may purchase a gift of mutation for x points." This is how the entry reads, yes?
"....may purchase one or more gift of mutation for x points." This is how the updated entry would read.
This allows you to purchase a single mutation, it doesn't allow for the purchase of multiples.

It would need to be worded as follows to allow for multiple gifts...
"....may purchase one or more gifts of mutation for x points."

And it's that simple.....
Just my 2 cents.

FYI, if that was what disallowed multiple gifts, then the Mark of Chaos rule would need to be worded as "One or more Marks of Chaos" and this interpretation would also be disallowed as the multiple gifts rule is, and would therefore only refer to characters with one Mark of Chaos.

I do believe Schrodingers_Kitty has succinctly answered the question, both with his hypothetical, and his symbolic logic. The question the rule is asking is "If the unit has a Mark, and the character has a Mark, does the unit have a Mark of Chaos that the Independent Character does not have?" In this case, and in the case of a unit with two, three, or four Marks, the answer is no, and Abaddon can join the squad.

IF the question is asking "Is there a difference between any Marks that the unit and the Independent Character have?" Then a unit with two or more Marks can never be joined by an Marked IC, as the IC's Mark(s) will always differ from at least one of the unit's Marks.

Mannahnin, you also make my point. You say abbadon has 3 different marks than berserkers. The rules don't care about that though. The berserkers have 0 different marks than abbadon. The rule cares about units with different marks, not characters.

The rules do not probit a squad from being joined by a character with a different mark, like you said in my post. You changed the wording when you said that, and got it backwards, hence your error. Do you see?

Mat, you also change the wording. Abbadon can not join a unit with a different mark. The berserkers do not have a different mark than abbadon. To have a different mark, they would need the mark of Malal.

if one person has an orange and a bananna, and wants a different fruit, can he get a fruit from someone with bananas? No, because bananas are not different fruits. Bananas are different from oranges, yes, but that is not what the rule is asking. You guys are committing missteps on logic.

Abbadon has bananas, oranges, apples and pears. He can not get different fruit from what he has. He can get fruit from someone with bananas as they are not different.

Um what? How did I change the wording?

DevianID wrote:
Mannahnin, you also make my point. You say abbadon has 3 different marks than berserkers. The rules don't care about that though. The berserkers have 0 different marks than abbadon. The rule cares about units with different marks, not characters.

The rules do not probit a squad from being joined by a character with a different mark, like you said in my post. You changed the wording when you said that, and got it backwards, hence your error. Do you see?

Mat, you also change the wording. Abbadon can not join a unit with a different mark. The berserkers do not have a different mark than abbadon. To have a different mark, they would need the mark of Malal.

if one person has an orange and a bananna, and wants a different fruit, can he get a fruit from someone with bananas? No, because bananas are not different fruits. Bananas are different from oranges, yes, but that is not what the rule is asking. You guys are committing missteps on logic.

Abbadon has bananas, oranges, apples and pears. He can not get different fruit from what he has. He can get fruit from someone with bananas as they are not different.

Well considering Abbadon has the mark of nurgle, and the unit has the mark of khorne, The berzerkers indeed have a different mark than Abbadon.

DevianID wrote:
Rigeld, your statement is incorrect. Abbadon does not have the mark of slaneesh, he has the mark of slaneesh, tzeentch, nurgle and khorne. The unit does not have a different mark than that. You keep arguing abbadons mark is different. The rules don't care. Is the UNITS mark different. No it is not.

So the unit's Mark of Khorne is not different from Abby's Mark of Nurgle?

Why are you arbitrarily only comparing a single Mark? How do you decide which to compare?

rigeld2, I would love to hear your take on my hypothetical.

Can Abbadon join a squad that also has all 4 marks?

Schrodingers_Kitty wrote:
rigeld2, I would love to hear your take on my hypothetical.

Can Abbadon join a squad that also has all 4 marks?

Yes. Perhaps you'll explain how that goes against the rules?

Wouldn't that squads mark of Khorne be different than Abbadon's mark of Nurgle?

But they have different marks.

I don't see RAI why GW would want to now change what Abbadon could previously do.

Schrodingers_Kitty wrote:
Wouldn't that squads mark of Khorne be different than Abbadon's mark of Nurgle?

Hmm you're right.
So he's limited to unmarked squads.


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 Dozer Blades wrote:
But they have different marks.

I don't see RAI why GW would want to now change what Abbadon could previously do.

Because change happens.
I don't think there was any restriction on marked units in the old codex, so it's not just Abby, its all marked ICs that are limited where they weren't before.

Matt, one thing you changed is that you said kharn has the same mark as berserkers, thus he can join them. In reality, the berserkers do not have a different mark than kharn, so he is not prohibited from joining them. As an independent character he already has permission to join them, it is only a potential restriction that could prevent them from joining.

I blame myself and the nature of forum talks for failing to illustrate my point well. It is so much easier to talk about stuff in person.

Anyway, if you have milk, bread, eggs and cheese, and can not eat a different food, you can eat bread. Bread is not a different food.

This is the same thing as abbadon. He has 4 marks, and can not join a unit with a different mark. Replace marks with food, and join with eat.

Bad analogy.

Abbadon has 4 marks. Do the berzerkers have a different mark than Abbadon? Well yes, they have MoK and that is a different mark than Abbadons MoN, MoS, MoT.

Therefore the unit does have a different mark, as you can not just compare one mark, you have to take all of them into consideration because you are not told to ignore the others.

At this point I don't think anyone is going to change their mind. I'm in the camp that he can join marked units - it can be supported by RAW and is RAI. That's HIWPI.

The rules cannot be asking "Does the unit have any Mark that differs from any of the IC's Marks?" That produces illogical conclusions (A unit with the Mark of Tzeentch and Nurgle could not be joined by an IC with the Mark of Tzeentch and Nurgle, as both Marks are different than the other Mark).
The rule is asking "Does the unit contain a Mark that the Independent Character does not have?" With only four Marks, and Abbadon having all four, there can never be a "No" answer. It's asking "Does the unit contain a different Mark", not "Are the units and the IC's Marks different?" A subtle difference, but an important one.

Deathreaper, it is a good analogy. Berserkers do not have a different mark than abbadon. What you are talking about is abbadon having a different mark than berserkers.

Apples can go in a fruit bin, but not all fruit can go in an apple bin. Order is important. The logic for sets was even posted by some one else.

For example, 2 oranges are different than 1 orange. Quantity is different. But you don't have a different fruit.

4 marks are different than 1 mark in quantity. But berserkers do not have a different kind of mark than those 4.

If I have bread and cheese, and want a different food, you are saying I should have bread, because bread is different than cheese. That is wrong. To get a different food, it must be different from my set.

DevianID wrote:
Berserkers do not have a different mark than abbadon.

Really? so the zerkers MoK is not different than Abby's MoN?

"An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos."

The Character has mark of nurgle, do the unit of zerkers have a different mark? (Yes)

Abby has MoN, and all three other marks.

If Abby tries to join a marked unit we find that the unit indeed does have a different Mark of Chaos than the lord, as the lord has MoN, MoT, MoS and MoK, where the unit just has MoK. so the unit has a different mark than any of the three MoN, MoT, MoS so the IC can not join him.

I am not sure I can explain the RAW any better.

Deathreaper, read my above post. Abbadon has bread and cheese. He wants a different food. According to your incorrect logic, you would give abbadon bread.

Again analogies are never a good way to figure out a rule set.

Is the Zerkers MoK different than Abby's MoN?

You have the RAW right. You have the logic wrong.

In the set of {W,X,Y,Z}, Abby has {W,X,Y,Z}. Bezerkers have {W}. The question the restriction asks is "Does the set of {W} contain any elements that the set of {W,X,Y,Z} does not have?" The question is not whether or not the sets are equivalent, but whether or not the unit set contains any elements which are not part of the IC set. If the unit set was {W,Z} and the IC set was {Z}, the IC could not join. But if the unit set was {W,Z} and the IC set was {W,X,Z}, the IC could join.

That is not what it says.

It says "An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos."

The unit has X, Abby has W,X,Y,Z

Is X different than W,X,Y, or Z?

If yes he can not join that unit.

It's not "Is X different than W,X,Y, or Z?" It's "Is X different than W,X,Y, and Z?"

kaisshau wrote:
It's not "Is X different than W,X,Y, or Z?" It's "Is X different than W,X,Y, and Z?"

Is it? Please provide proof that it does mean the latter.

The logic was already listed several times. Read the bread and cheese set again.

DevianID wrote:
The logic was already listed several times. Read the bread and cheese set again.

That's not what I asked, and actually the analogy only serves to confuse rather than explain. It's like the birds and the bees... your Abaddon is going through all sorts of weird changes, he's getting bulkier (bloated?), he's angrier, and possibly sexier and now you have to tell Abby to filter all of this information through the metaphor of interspecies poon-tang...

kaisshau wrote:
It's not "Is X different than W,X,Y, or Z?" It's "Is X different than W,X,Y, and Z?"

X is different than W,X,Y, and Z

X does not = W,X,Y,Z

Therefore different.

If the rule were to say "An IC may not join a squad if he has a different Mark", then Abaddon would be precluded from joining. The sentence asks "Does the unit have a Mark that the IC doesn't have." Any other interpretation produces illogical consequences. Because, that would mean that it would answer the question "Is {W,Z} different from {W,Z}?" With "Yes", which is obviously incorrect.

 DeathReaper wrote:

kaisshau wrote:
It's not "Is X different than W,X,Y, or Z?" It's "Is X different than W,X,Y, and Z?"

X is different than W,X,Y, and Z

X does not = W,X,Y,Z

Therefore different.

That logic makes sense

also posted from the other Abby thread on this page:

kaisshau wrote:
The Mark of Chaos Ascendant is not a Mark of Chaos

By Kaisshau's own words... Does this mean that Abaddon is really an unmarked Chaos lord and just has the benefits from all 4 of the marks? And thus can join any unit he pleases? No wait, it doesn't because it specifically says he has all 4 of the marks lol...

Again that is not what it says.

It says "An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos."

Abbadon has MoN, the unit has MoK

Does the unit have a different Mark of Chaos than Abby?

kaisshau wrote:
If the rule were to say "An IC may not join a squad if he has a different Mark", then Abaddon would be precluded from joining. The sentence asks "Does the unit have a Mark that the IC doesn't have." Any other interpretation produces illogical consequences. Because, that would mean that it would answer the question "Is {W,Z} different from {W,Z}?" With "Yes", which is obviously incorrect.

We're not comparing that though we're comparing the fact that Abaddon has w,x,y,z and is trying to join a unit of x. w != x, y != x, z != x, but x = x. But that's comparing the IC to the unit he's trying to join. The check is on the Unit's mark. So x != w, y, or z, but x = x which means that he still has 3 marks that don't match.


As I've stated, I don't care how you play it as I don't run abby or run my marked HQs in units that aren't marked. But as it stands RAW says there is no way abby can join with cult or marked units. He's only allowed to join unmarked units.

Same thing I posted in the other thread:
Abaddon has all four Marks of Chaos. Abaddon has no Marks of Chaos listed in his profile. "Has" != "listed". This rule, however, asks if he has one.

On this front, when comparing this way, X is no different from X,Y,Z, or W,X, or X,X,X, or even A,B,C,...,X,Y,Z. If it was, X,Y would then be different from X,Y, because X is different from Y, and Y is different from X.

For every time that Abaddon has mark x he also has marks w, y, and z, which will ALWAYS be different.

His mark of nurgle will never ever be a mark of khorne.

 DeathReaper wrote:

kaisshau wrote:
It's not "Is X different than W,X,Y, or Z?" It's "Is X different than W,X,Y, and Z?"

X is different than W,X,Y, and Z

X does not = W,X,Y,Z

Therefore different.

W,X,Y,Z = W,X,Y,Z

Either you agree with rigeld2, which would be saying that W,X,Y,Z != W,X,Y,Z
-or-
You are applying a different standard to depending on whether the squad has just 1 mark or all of them.

It doesn't matter since he also has the same mark. We can all agree now be has four marks, not a mark.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It doesn't matter since he also has the same mark. We can all agree now be has four marks, not a mark.

No, what doesn't matter is that he has the same mark.

What does matter is that he has different marks.

The rule isn't that you can only join a squad if you have the same mark, its that you cannot join if you have a different mark.

Abaddon will always have a different mark.

He always has the same mark as well. It goes both ways.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
He always has the same mark as well. It goes both ways.

Again, the same mark doesn't matter. its not part of the rule.

An Unmarked character can join a marked unit because he doesn't have a different mark. A guy with the MoK can join Bezerkers because he doesn't have a different mark.

Grey templar, it does not say "what does matter is if he has different marks" like you said. What matters is if the unit has different marks. You changed who must be different, which keeps preventing you from getting the rule right.

According to your faulty logic, kharns mark of khorne would be different from berserkers mark of khorne, because they are on different characters. After all, your apple is different from my apple, but they are the same fruit. Context is important when discussing sets and what is different from what.

The mistake keeps coming up because we are talking about sets and kinds of marks.

Also grey templar, a unit with a mark does have a different mark than an unmarked character. However the rule only applies to an ic with a mark, which is why unmarked characters can joined marked units.

The unit has MoK, as Abby has MoN Are those the same or are those different.

It is an easy question to answer.

Ok, so I wrote it weirdly with kharn, big deal, the rest are written correctly... Including Abaddon...

DevianID wrote:
Grey templar, it does not say "what does matter is if he has different marks" like you said. What matters is if the unit has different marks. You changed who must be different, which keeps preventing you from getting the rule right.

According to your faulty logic, kharns mark of khorne would be different from berserkers mark of khorne, because they are on different characters. After all, your apple is different from my apple, but they are the same fruit. Context is important when discussing sets and what is different from what.

The mistake keeps coming up because we are talking about sets and kinds of marks.

To elaborate upon Grey Templar's point, an unmarked lord can always join a marked unit because he doesn't have a Mark of Chaos to compare and as such will never have a different mark, just like a Chaos Lord with Mark of Khorne can always join a unit with the Mark of Khorne because no matter how you slice it the unit will never have a different mark from the Chaos Lord with Mark of Khorne.

By that same vein, Abaddon can always join an unmarked unit because while he does have all four Marks of Chaos, the unit doesn't have a Mark of Chaos to compare and as such will never have a different mark from Abaddon. Abaddon can not join a unit with the Mark of Khorne because no matter how you slice it, the will always have at 3 marks that are different from Abaddon.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The unit has MoK, as Abby has MoN Are those the same or are those different.

It is an easy question to answer.

This folks, can't joined marked squads, RAW. This is color-by-number rules. How are you messing this up?

kaisshau wrote:
The rules cannot be asking "Does the unit have any Mark that differs from any of the IC's Marks?" That produces illogical conclusions (A unit with the Mark of Tzeentch and Nurgle could not be joined by an IC with the Mark of Tzeentch and Nurgle, as both Marks are different than the other Mark)....

Which is irrelevant, since there is no such unit in the game.

 Lobukia wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The unit has MoK, as Abby has MoN Are those the same or are those different.

It is an easy question to answer.

This folks, can't joined marked squads, RAW. This is color-by-number rules. How are you messing this up?

It is being read wrong is how you are messing it up.

Abbadon has 4 things. Let's call them milk, bread, eggs, and cheese. He can not have something different. He can have milk, as milk is not different.

Milk is, however, different from Bread.

Why are you only considering the mark that is the same, and not the marks that are different?

You have avoided answering that quetion for 6 pages. Please answer it.

This is, indeed, painting by numbers rules - the rules state you cannot join if you have a mark (that is) different from the units mark. Abby has MoN. Is MoN the same as, or different from, MoK?

That is really your only argument but DevianID has successfully shown the inverse holds true... He has repeatedly demonstrated this for quite some time now.

The way you need to read the rule
"A unit with Mark of X cannot be joined by an IC with Mark of Y, Z, or W."

Unit A has Mark X. IC with Marks W, X, Y, and Z wants to join mentioned unit. He is prehibited from joining because he has Marks Y, Z, or W. It's not asking if he has the same mark as them. It's asking if he has the offending marks.

He has the blessings of all 4 gods, but that doesn't mean the unit is ok with a tainted leader.

Yet that is irrelevant, as this has been repeatedly shown to you and Devian for quite some time now

The rule only cares about the unit having a different mark from the IC. Does the unit have a different mark from the IC? Yes. Rule satisfied, the lord may not join

RAW this is utterly clear. RAI? Well you have decided it is "RAI" that they must be able to join, so presumably you are a member of the studio. No? Then your assertion is just that - an assertion. RAI can quite easily be that he cannot join, as he is above such petty "marking" to a single god. Boom, your "£RAI" "argument" is gone, again.

Like I said he has four marks not a mark. Phrases such as 'I have a blue cat... I have two blue cats' are superfluous.

Good grief, you read that was a grammatical error, yes? As in, your argument is based on a flawed understanding of grammar?

Yes, he has 4 marks. He has A mark as well

If you have 4 cars, do you have a car? Yes.


Please try again, but without repeating the same flawed disproven arguments again...

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Like I said he has four marks not a mark.

And yet you still haven't answered my question about the Waaagh Banner...

Does an ork IC have to have the WB to join any unit of orks? I fail to see the connection.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Good grief, you read that was a grammatical error, yes? As in, your argument is based on a flawed understanding of grammar?

Yes, he has 4 marks. He has A mark as well

If you have 4 cars, do you have a car? Yes.


Please try again, but without repeating the same flawed disproven arguments again...

It has been disproven - your attempt at semantics is flawed.

"A unit with A Waaagh Banner"

The connection is fairly obvious, usage of "A" to mean "one or more", same as in the Chaos rule on lords joining

A mark is satisfied by having One or More marks. A car is satisfied if you have 1 or more cars.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Does an ork IC have to have the WB to join any unit of orks? I fail to see the connection.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Good grief, you read that was a grammatical error, yes? As in, your argument is based on a flawed understanding of grammar?

Yes, he has 4 marks. He has A mark as well

If you have 4 cars, do you have a car? Yes.


Please try again, but without repeating the same flawed disproven arguments again...

It has been disproven - your attempt at semantics is flawed.

Sigh. It hasnt, as it isnt "semantics" but "basic English" that you are failing to comprehend

If it has been disproven, please actually do so - hint , it hasnt. Try thouigh, it gets funny.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Does an ork IC have to have the WB to join any unit of orks? I fail to see the connection.

You have claimed that the rule in question doesn't apply to Abbadon, since he has 4 marks and not 'a' mark.

A unit with 'a' Waaagh Banner gains +1 WS. So what happens if the unit has 4 Waaagh Banners?

By your reasoning, one Waaagh Banner gives them +1 WS... but having more than one means that they get no benefit whatsoever from any of them, since the rule would not apply.

I shouldn't need to point out that this is not the generally held view on how Waaagh Banners work...

@ insaniak

I'm sorry but I don't buy that as a counter argument... The multiple Waaagh Banner is a question of do they stack not can an IC join a unit.

@ nos

Why is your stance right and mine wrong? I'd love to see what an English professor would have to say.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

the rules state you cannot join if you have a mark (that is) different from the units mark.

First nos, that is not the rule. "an ic with a mark of chaos can not join a unit with a different mark of chaos."

Abbadon is a character with a mark of chaos. A mark of chaos is obviously the generic term for marks, as the mark of khorne is a mark of chaos, but not all marks of chaos are marks of khorne. Thus to qualify for this restriction an ic needs to only be marked. It doesn't matter what mark. Hence why unmarked characters can join any unit is not because they do not have a different mark, it is because the restriction only applies to models with a mark.

For abbadon to be denied the ability to join a unit, the unit must have a different mark of chaos. Again marks are used generically here.

You guys are reading it as "an independent character with the mark of nurgle may not join a unit with the mark of khorne." If this were the rule then you would be right. Nos, you asked why I never addressed this, I have been when I said you have been changing the wording. You changed the general term "mark of chaos" to a specific mark, and applied the incorrect logic so that you read the rule incorrectly as:
"Abbadon has the mark of nurgle. The rule says a model with the mark of nurgle may not join a unit with a different mark. Berserkers have a mark that is different from nurgle so he can't join them."

Do you see how you changed the generic "ic with a mark of chaos" to the specific "ic with the mark of nurgle" and how that change to the rules colored your perception?

To reiterate, the mark of nurgle is a mark of chaos, but not all marks of chaos are marks of nurgle. MoC != MoN.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
@ insaniak

I'm sorry but I don't buy that as a counter argument... The multiple Waaagh Banner is a question of do they stack not can an IC join a unit.

So? It's the same issue.

You claim that a character with multiple marks ignores a rule that refers to characters with 'a' mark.
So in the same way, a unit with multiple Waaagh Banners would ignore a rule that refers to units with 'a' banner.

Can you take multiple Waaagh banners? Sorry but I don't play Orks.

If you couldn't, I wouldn't have mentioned it as a potential issue...

Devian - so, again, why are you only looking t the MoC that is identical? Why, when the rule asks if they have a different mark, are you only considering the mark that is the same?

The rule is concerned with whether the unit has a different mark to the lord. The unit does, indeed, have a different mark - the lord has 3 different marks to the unit. The lord cannot join

Dozer - because, quite simply, you are wrong. You dont seem to comprehend a basic bit of English language construction. "A mark" is satisfied whether you have 1 or 100 marks. There is almost no way to explain this any clearer

The unit does, indeed, have a different mark - the lord has 3 different marks to the unit.

You reversed it right there again. You said the lord has 3 different marks to the unit.

Now how many marks does the UNIT have that are different from the lord? This is my important point.

 Lobukia wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The unit has MoK, as Abby has MoN Are those the same or are those different.

It is an easy question to answer.

This folks, can't joined marked squads, RAW. This is color-by-number rules. How are you messing this up?

They're messing it up because it is absolutely slowed that Abaddon, the warmaster with the so-called "Mark of Chaos Ascendant" can't join anything with a Mark. RAW, I suppose he can't join a marked unit, but you have to agree, it's stupid as hell.

Mcninja, RAW is that abbadon can join anyone.

If you have Abbadon and Berserkers, how many marks do the berserkers have that are different from abbadon?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Devian - so, again, why are you only looking t the MoC that is identical? Why, when the rule asks if they have a different mark, are you only considering the mark that is the same?

The rule is concerned with whether the unit has a different mark to the lord. The unit does, indeed, have a different mark - the lord has 3 different marks to the unit. The lord cannot join

Dozer - because, quite simply, you are wrong. You dont seem to comprehend a basic bit of English language construction. "A mark" is satisfied whether you have 1 or 100 marks. There is almost no way to explain this any clearer

Oh boy this thread again.

Because the rule doesn't care about what marks the character has. It only cares that he has the same mark as the unit he is joining. Read the rule, it is only concerned with the unit's mark of chaos. Any additional marks of chaos on the character are irrelevant. They are not what the rule is comparing.

Abaddon's mark of khorne is the same as a unit of berzerkers mark of khorne. That is the only thing the rule asks, and it is satisfied. Adding additional comparisons to the rule is out of scope of what the rule is asking.

DevianID wrote:
Mcninja, RAW is that abbadon can join anyone.

If you have Abbadon and Berserkers, how many marks do the berserkers have that are different from abbadon?

Again, their Mark of Khorne is different from his Mark of Nurgle, Tz, and Slann.

And intent could go either way. Either he's meant to join anyone because he's the warmaster, or he's meant to join unmarked only as he doesn't want to show favor.

rigeld2, you changed the question again.

How many marks do Berserkers have that are different from abbadon?

We already know that Khorne is different from corn, that is not what the rule is asking.

Kevlar wrote:
Abaddon's mark of khorne is the same as a unit of berzerkers mark of khorne. That is the only thing the rule asks, and it is satisfied. Adding additional comparisons to the rule is out of scope of what the rule is asking.

Why are you only comparing one Mark? How did you pick Abby's Mark of Khorne instead of his Mark of Nurgle?
Is Abby's Mark of Nurgle the same as the units Mark of Khorne?

rigeld2 wrote:

Kevlar wrote:
Abaddon's mark of khorne is the same as a unit of berzerkers mark of khorne. That is the only thing the rule asks, and it is satisfied. Adding additional comparisons to the rule is out of scope of what the rule is asking.

Why are you only comparing one Mark? How did you pick Abby's Mark of Khorne instead of his Mark of Nurgle?
Is Abby's Mark of Nurgle the same as the units Mark of Khorne?

Because the unit only has one mark, and that is the only one the rule is concerned with comparing.

Rigeld, I am not only comparing one mark. I also didnt pick anything. While Kevlar may have said something incorrect in a roundabout way, he still got it right. You are avoiding the main question presented.

How many marks do Berserkers have that are different from Abbadon?

 McNinja wrote:
TThey're messing it up because it is absolutely slowed that Abaddon, the warmaster with the so-called "Mark of Chaos Ascendant" can't join anything with a Mark. RAW, I suppose he can't join a marked unit, but you have to agree, it's stupid as hell.

You want stupid, try Captain Shrike having a rule conferring Infiltrate to a unit he joins... but being unable to join a unit at a time that would make that any use whatsoever.

Stupid things happen in GW's rules sometimes. Sometimes they wind up errata-d out... and sometimes they just get left that way. It's all part of the happy mystery that is GW games design.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
@ insaniak

I'm sorry but I don't buy that as a counter argument... The multiple Waaagh Banner is a question of do they stack not can an IC join a unit.

@ nos

Why is your stance right and mine wrong? I'd love to see what an English professor would have to say.

Why cares about grammar, we are Chaos Marines and above grammar.

The rule states that you cannot have a different mark, Abby does, rule applies. You don't need an English professor, you need to understand basic reading comprehension and its application to a permissive ruleset.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW: HIWPI, he can join any unit, but its not RAW.

DevianID wrote:
rigeld2, you changed the question again.

How many marks do Berserkers have that are different from abbadon?

We already know that Khorne is different from corn, that is not what the rule is asking.

The units Mark of Khorne is different t from Abby's Mark of Nurgle.

DevianID wrote:
Mcninja, RAW is that abbadon can join anyone.

If you have Abbadon and Berserkers, how many marks do the berserkers have that are different from abbadon?

Huh. After re-reading the rule, I see what you mean.

DevianID wrote:
Rigeld, I am not only comparing one mark. I also didnt pick anything. While Kevlar may have said something incorrect in a roundabout way, he still got it right. You are avoiding the main question presented.

How many marks do Berserkers have that are different from Abbadon?

The units Mark is different from 3 of Abby's Marks.
I'm not avoiding the main question. You're stopping with one comparison and claiming everything is satisfied. Why are you stopping at one comparison?

The rule states that you cannot have a different mark, Abby does, rule applies

The rule states you can not join a unit with a different mark. Abby having a different mark is not in the rule--rule does certainly not apply. The unit needs to have a different mark--not abbadon like you said. This reversal error has been happening a lot here, where people start out talking about a unit and then say that abbadon is different. No one cares if abbadon is different. Only the unit matters.

The units Mark of Khorne is different t from Abby's Mark of Nurgle.

The units mark of khorne is also idfferent from abbadons powerfist, and his terminator armor. But that is not the rule. The unit's mark must be different to abbadon entirely, as the rule applies to the entire model. What you are saying is that Kharn can not join Khorne CSM, because their mark is different as it cost points while Kharns didnt. You changed the argument when you start talking about specific things on a model instead of the entire model.

Berzerkers have zero different marks from Abbadon. They have 1 mark that is different to Abbadons powerfist, but that comparisson is NOT the rule, and using that as a rule requires changing the wording of the said rule.

The units Mark is different from 3 of Abby's Marks.

Again you changed the rule... Is the unit's mark different from abbadon? Or is it only different from some specific thing on abbadon that is not part of what the rule is asking.

Edit: Grammer wise, you changed the noun from Abbadon to mark.

DevianID wrote:
It is being read wrong is how you are messing it up.

Abbadon has 4 things. Let's call them milk, bread, eggs, and cheese. He can not have something different. He can have milk, as milk is not different.

I feel DevianID's frustration here. I hate the bread, cheese thing but if that's the way people want to play it:

Assume 'Mark of Chaos' = Fruit

"An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos." becomes "An Independent Character with a fruit may not join a unit with a different fruit."

I believe everyone agrees with the following example (apologies for any errors in nomenclature, it's been a while):

1) If the IC has a different fruit than the unit, they may not join (P)
2) The IC has an apple (A)
3) The unit has a banana (A)
4) Apples are different than bananas (A)
5) The IC has a different fruit than the unit (C) (2,3,4)
6) The IC may not join the unit (C) (1,5)

By the same logic:

1) If the IC has a different fruit than the unit, they may not join (P)
2) The IC has an apple (A)
3) The IC has a banana (A)
4) The IC has a pear (A)
5) The IC has an orange (A)
6) The Unit has an apple (A)
7) Apples are different than bananas (A)
8) The IC has a different fruit than the unit (C) (3,6,7)
9) The IC may not join the unit (C) (1,8)

To bring it back to the actual situation:

"An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos."

All this statement relies upon is that the IC has a (singular) Mark of Chaos that differs from a (singular) Mark of Chaos in the unit in question. It doesn't matter if the unit has 3/4 or 2/4 or 1/4 Marks that are the same. All it requires is for one mark to be different (from the point of view of the IC).

In Abaddon's case, because he has all 4 Marks, that means he can only ever join units that have exactly the same 4 Marks as him or none at all. It doesn't matter in the slightest that he may share 1, 2, or even 3 of the same Marks (even though there is no such Unit), only that the unit has one (or more) Marks that are different from his 4 Marks.

RAW - Abaddon may only join Units with no Marks, or all 4 Marks.
RAI - Abaddon can join any Marked or non-Marked unit.
HWIPI - Abaddon can join any Marked or non-Marked unit. Provided the owning player isn't planning on shooting Torrents out of a Helldrake's arse...

DoW

DevianID wrote:

The units Mark of Khorne is different t from Abby's Mark of Nurgle.

The units mark of khorne is also idfferent from abbadons powerfist, and his terminator armor. But that is not the rule. The unit's mark must be different to abbadon entirely, as the rule applies to the entire model. What you are saying is that Kharn can not join Khorne CSM, because their mark is different as it cost points while Kharns didnt. You changed the argument when you start talking about specific things on a model instead of the entire model.

No, that's not what I'm saying at all.
I'm comparing a units Mark of Chaos (Khorne) to an ICs Mark of Chaos (Nurgle) and finding a difference.

Berzerkers have zero different marks from Abbadon. They have 1 mark that is different to Abbadons powerfist, but that comparisson is NOT the rule, and using that as a rule requires changing the wording of the said rule.

Cite one time I've compared to a power fist.
I haven't changed the rule whatsoever. I'm comparing the units Mark to the ICs Mark. You pretending I'm comparing it to irrelevant wargear is insulting and just plain wrong.

The units Mark is different from 3 of Abby's Marks.

Again you changed the rule... Is the unit's mark different from abbadon? Or is it only different from some specific thing on abbadon that is not part of what the rule is asking.

How is Abby's Mark of Nurgle different not part of a Mark of Chaos which is what the rule requires to be compared?

Your assertion is that you get to pick which Marks to compare. Please cite the permission.

DogofWar, I like the effort you put in there. However I found fault with premise 1 which then ruins everything else you built.

1) If the IC has a different fruit than the unit, they may not join (P)

The IC in fact can not join a unit with a different fruit. You reversed this to read that a unit can not be joind by an IC with a different fruit. Right in your example of the rule in 1) you changed who needs to be different in order to not join.

See how that skewed all your following logic?

I'm comparing a units Mark of Chaos (Khorne) to an ICs Mark of Chaos (Nurgle) and finding a difference.

Rigeld2, you are comparing specific marks and finding a difference between them. That is not what the rule asks you to do. The first part of the rule in question is "An independent character with a mark of chaos..." This tells you who the rule applies to. Abbadon is an independent character with a mark of chaos, so the rule applies to him. Next "...may not join a unit with a different mark of chaos."

So Abbadon "may not join a unit with a different mark of chaos."

What are the marks of Chaos, and are there any marks of chaos different than the ones Abbadon has?

Yes; he has themarkof nurgle, and that is different to the units mark of khorne

The unit has a different mark of chaos to abaddon, rule applies. Again, why are you picking the common mark and ignoring the different marks? Actually answer that question.

He actually answered that question a couple times.

Going back and reading it again I have to agree with him. You're comparing to see if the marked IC and the marked unit have a matching mark. The IC has all four marks and the unit has one of those marks. The unit doesn't have a different mark compared to the IC.

Even if the unit had all four marks, by your logic it still wouldn't work. Since the unit's mark of nurgle would always be different from the IC's mark of khorne. You're comparing each mark to every other mark.

DevianID wrote:
What are the marks of Chaos, and are there any marks of chaos different than the ones Abbadon has?

That's absolutely not what the rule is asking.
The rule is asking you to compare the Marks of the IC and the unit. If they are different, the IC cannot join.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
He actually answered that question a couple times.

Going back and reading it again I have to agree with him. You're comparing to see if the marked IC and the marked unit have a matching mark. The IC has all four marks and the unit has one of those marks. The unit doesn't have a different mark compared to the IC.

Even if the unit had all four marks, by your logic it still wouldn't work. Since the unit's mark of nurgle would always be different from the IC's mark of khorne. You're comparing each mark to every other mark.

Correct. Which is what the rule is asking you to do.

And a better analogy would be if the IC had a power sword and power axe and couldn't join a unit with a different power weapon. So you'd still be able to join a unit with an axe or sword.

Wait, how did I mess up what I wrote on page 5 DevianID? You were incorrect in saying I messed up Kharn. So, how is what I wrote wrong? Note I want an actually explanation, not the usual "Milk, Bread, Honey" analogy you give... And certainly not a straight "WRONG!"

Kharn want to join some bezerkers. They have a mark of Khorne. He has a mark of khorne. The unit has the same mark as him. He can join them.

Lucius wants to join some bezerkers. They have the mark of khorne. He has the mark of slaanesh. The unit has a different mark. He cannot join them.

Typhus wants to join some bezerkers. They have the mark of khorne. He has the mark of nurgle. The unit has a different mark. He cannot join them.

Ahriman wants to join some bezerkers. They have the mark of khorne. He has the mark of tzeentch. The unit has a different mark. He cannot join them.

Abaddon wants to join some bezerkers. They have the mark of khorne. He has the mark of khorne. He also has the mark of Slaanesh, Nurgle and Tzeentch. The unit has a different mark to Abaddon's mark of slaanesh, nurgle and tzeentch, but the same as his mark of khorne. 3/4 marks are different.. He cannot join them.

Lucius wants to join some bezerkers. They have the mark of khorne. He has the mark of slaanesh. The unit has a different mark. He cannot join them.

Typhus wants to join some bezerkers. They have the mark of khorne. He has the mark of nurgle. The unit has a different mark. He cannot join them.

Ahriman wants to join some bezerkers. They have the mark of khorne. He has the mark of tzeentch. The unit has a different mark. He cannot join them.

Abbadon counts as having every Mark. The examples you've given above are correct unto themselves but have no correlation to Abbadon for the very reason I've given.

BUT the main thing is that marks that are the same don't matter, only different marks. The marked unit will always be different to Abaddon, because their mark is different to 3 of his. 3/4 different ~= 0 different

All that really matters is if they have the same mark... The other marks have no bearing.

No, the rule refers to a different mark. Marks that are the same don't matter at all. As long as 1 mark is different, the unit and character can't join.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
All that really matters is if they have the same mark... The other marks have no bearing.

But the Zerkers do not have the same mark as Abby.

the Zerkers have MoK, Abby has MoT, is that the same or different?

If you are only comparing the unit's MoK to Abby's MoK then "why are you picking the common mark and ignoring the different marks?" (Quote from Nos earlier in this thread).

"the Zerkers have MoN, Abby has MoT, is that the same or different?"

Correction - Berserkers have MoK not MoN.

either way... same outcome

 Dozer Blades wrote:
"the Zerkers have MoN, Abby has MoT, is that the same or different?"

Correction - Berserkers have MoK not MoN.

Right MoK not MoN fixed the typo in my post.

Point still stands though.

The Zerkers have MoK, Abby has MoT, is that the same or different?

Why are you picking the common mark and ignoring the different marks?

Can I get an answer to these two questions please.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
All that really matters is if they have the same mark... The other marks have no bearing.

Citation required. Why are you only co paring one mark?

DevianID wrote:
DogofWar, I like the effort you put in there. However I found fault with premise 1 which then ruins everything else you built.

1) If the IC has a different fruit than the unit, they may not join (P)

The IC in fact can not join a unit with a different fruit. You reversed this to read that a unit can not be joind by an IC with a different fruit. Right in your example of the rule in 1) you changed who needs to be different in order to not join.

See how that skewed all your following logic?

Whoops, you're right about the order. But that's not a big issue and can be easily fixed.

Assume this edited version then:

"An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos."

1) If the IC has a fruit, they may not join a unit with a different fruit (P)
2) The IC has an apple (A)
3) The IC has a banana (A)
4) The IC has a pear (A)
5) The IC has an orange (A)
6) The Unit has an apple (A)
7) Apples are different than bananas (A)
8) Apples are fruits (A)
9) Bananas are fruits (A)
10) The IC has a fruit, which is a banana (3, 9)
11) The Unit has a fruit, which is an apple (6, 8)
12) The Unit has a different fruit than the IC (7, 10, 11)
13) The IC may not join the unit (1, 12)

EDIT - Last line was numbered incorrectly. My apologies.

10) the ic has a fruit which INCLUDES bananas and apples.

His fruit is not a banana; because his fruit is also an apple.

In 10 where you say his fruit is a banana you change the generic fruit into bananna, meaning all the ICs fruit is bananas. That colors the conclusions drawn below.

Even changing that doesn't change the overall conclusion.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yes; he has themarkof nurgle, and that is different to the units mark of khorne

The unit has a different mark of chaos to abaddon, rule applies. Again, why are you picking the common mark and ignoring the different marks? Actually answer that question.

I am not picking any one mark. You are with nurgle.

You are saying that abbadon, who has all the marks, finds a different mark from the marks he has in berserkers. I am saying that is impossible, there is no different mark from the 4 that abbadon has.

Rigeld, changing 10) like that does change the conclusion. If I have something already, the same thing I already have is not a different thing.

If abbadon has apples and bananas and wants something different, are you saying that he should have another apple?

He doesn't have one mark that is everything. He has all 4 marks individually. So you cannot consider them as a whole.
The unit checks its Mark vs the IC and looks for a difference. Khorne is not the same as Nurgle - there's a difference.

The problem with that is that you are having the unit look for a different mark than the IC in your sentence above rigeld.

It is the other way around though. The ic is checking the unit for a different mark.

DevianID wrote:
The problem with that is that you are having the unit look for a different mark than the IC in your sentence above rigeld.

It is the other way around though. The ic is checking the unit for a different mark.

Exactly. Which Abaddon does, and finds a Mark that differs in three instances regardless of the marked Unit he is trying to join (since there are no multiple-marked units in the codex aside from Abby).

There isn't a single check that occurs, which is I think where we are getting stuck. There are 4 separate checks for each Mark to compare difference.

Maybe a flowchart form will make more sense. I think Rigeld may have also illustrated this before:

Start
Is the Unit Marked? If yes, continue. If not, Abaddon MAY join.

(Abaddon has a MoN)
Does the Unit have a MoN? If yes, continue. If not, Abaddon may not join.

(Abaddon has a MoK)
Does the Unit have a MoK? If yes, continue. If not, Abaddon may not join.

(Abaddon has a MoS)
Does the Unit have a MoS? If yes, continue. If not, Abaddon may not join.

(Abaddon has a MoT)
Does the Unit have a MoT? If yes, continue. If not, Abaddon may not join.

Abaddon MAY join.

End

Everything must be satisfied, not simply one section. That's I think where the major disconnect is occurring.

DoW

DevianID wrote:
The problem with that is that you are having the unit look for a different mark than the IC in your sentence above rigeld.

It is the other way around though. The ic is checking the unit for a different mark.

And the IC Checks to see if the unit has the same mark and the IC sees a MoK.

He then looks at his own mark and sees MoCA, this make gives him these marks: MoK, MoN, MoT, MoS. 4 marks? this is madness!

well 1 is the same, but 3 are in fact different, he may not join that unit, as the unit has MoK and he has MoN, MoT, MoS, and MoK.

The unit has a different mark than the IC when you look at all of the IC's marks, and do not single any one of them out.

Dogofwar, your previous logic steps were better logically until step 10. That is where you made a mistake. Abbadon has an apple and banana. Abbadon asks for something different. You hand abbadon another apple. An apple is not different from what abbadon has already.

To rigeld (edit:meant deathreaper sorry) , name the mark that berserkers have that is different from the marks abbadon has. Name only the mark that berserkers have that is different, as I already know the marks abbadon has already.

Abbadon has an apple and banana. Abbadon asks for something different. You hand abbadon another apple. An apple is not different from what abbadon has already.

Abaddon asks if your fruit differs from his fruit. You have just an apple. He's got a banana, a kiwi, and a kumquat, in addition to his apple. Three of those are different from your apple.

Mannahin, your statement tells me that an apple is different from a banana. That is not important as you changed what is compared.

I have the mark of khorne and the mark of nurgle. I want a different mark. What marks are different from the 2 I already have.

Devian - you *must* have picked one mark, as that is the only one you are comparing.

The bezerkers MoK is different to his MoN, MoS, MoT. The common is MoK. However the unit HAS a different Mark - the MoK - to his MoN, MoS, MoT, so cannot join

There - I have picked all 4, you have picked 1. You are just parsing the sentence in a way that is grammatically incorrect, which is why there wont be a middle ground until you undersstand that basic fact

Abbadon is offended that you are equating the Pantheon of Chaos to fruit. He joins 5 different squads with 4 different marks at the time. He then annihilates your planet and from there launches a Black Crusade.

In the following scene, people in an art class were told to make a picture using crayons. Since the school doesn't fund its art department that well, not everybody can have an identical set of crayons. Some get a starter pack while others get the deluxe set. The teacher said to just share the crayons so everybody can get done with his picture.

Schrodingers_Kitty: Hey, rigeld2, What crayon set did you get?
rigeld2: I got the 24 crayon pack.
SK: I only got the 8 crayon pack, and I need a different color to finish my picture. Could I borrow your midnight blue if you aren't going to use it?
r: Sure
SK: Thanks.
Upon Schrodingers_Kitty returning the borrowed crayon
SK: Thanks again for letting me use this crayon.
r: No problem, but now I see that I also need a different color to finish my picture. Could I borrow something from you?
SK: Well, like I said before, I only have the basic 8 crayon set while you have the 24 set. You already have all the colors that I do. I can't give you a different color. If you need a different color, I suggest finding somebody who has a 100 crayon set.
r: How about you just give me your blue?
SK: I could do that, but since you have blue, how would that help you finish your picture?
r: You see, your blue crayon is different from my green. Actually, your blue crayon is different from 23 of my crayons.
SK: Well, good luck with that, then.
Scene end.

Schrodingers_Kitty wrote:
In the following scene, people in an art class were told to make a picture using crayons. Since the school doesn't fund its art department that well, not everybody can have an identical set of crayons. Some get a starter pack while others get the deluxe set. The teacher said to just share the crayons so everybody can get done with his picture.

Schrodingers_Kitty: Hey, rigeld2, What crayon set did you get?
rigeld2: I got the 24 crayon pack.
SK: I only got the 8 crayon pack, and I need a different color to finish my picture. Could I borrow your midnight blue if you aren't going to use it?
r: Sure
SK: Thanks.
Upon Schrodingers_Kitty returning the borrowed crayon
SK: Thanks again for letting me use this crayon.
r: No problem, but now I see that I also need a different color to finish my picture. Could I borrow something from you?
SK: Well, like I said before, I only have the basic 8 crayon set while you have the 24 set. You already have all the colors that I do. I can't give you a different color. If you need a different color, I suggest finding somebody who has a 100 crayon set.
r: How about you just give me your blue?
SK: I could do that, but since you have blue, how would that help you finish your picture?
r: You see, your blue crayon is different from my green. Actually, your blue crayon is different from 23 of my crayons.
SK: Well, good luck with that, then.
Scene end.

True, and funny! That being said, after sitting last night with a few guys, and just reading the rules it is fairly clear he couldn't join anything with a mark to me.

Now again, that is not saying we're playing that way, we still let Abbadon almost cost me the tourney!

Applause

More applause!

Schrodingers_Kitty wrote:
In the following scene, people in an art class were told to make a picture using crayons. Since the school doesn't fund its art department that well, not everybody can have an identical set of crayons. Some get a starter pack while others get the deluxe set. The teacher said to just share the crayons so everybody can get done with his picture.

Schrodingers_Kitty: Hey, rigeld2, What crayon set did you get?
rigeld2: I got the 24 crayon pack.
SK: I only got the 8 crayon pack, and I need a different color to finish my picture. Could I borrow your midnight blue if you aren't going to use it?
r: Sure
SK: Thanks.
Upon Schrodingers_Kitty returning the borrowed crayon
SK: Thanks again for letting me use this crayon.
r: No problem, but now I see that I also need a different color to finish my picture. Could I borrow something from you?
SK: Well, like I said before, I only have the basic 8 crayon set while you have the 24 set. You already have all the colors that I do. I can't give you a different color. If you need a different color, I suggest finding somebody who has a 100 crayon set.
r: How about you just give me your blue?
SK: I could do that, but since you have blue, how would that help you finish your picture?
r: You see, your blue crayon is different from my green. Actually, your blue crayon is different from 23 of my crayons.
SK: Well, good luck with that, then.
Scene end.

This relies on the rule saying something that it doesn't. Not trying to be a jerk, but here is the quoted rule again:

"An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos."

It doesn't say "An Independent Character with any Mark of Chaos" or "An Independent Character with Marks of Chaos", which is what that story (and the opposing argument) relies upon.

The rule asks you this:

"An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos..."
Does the IC have a Mark of Chaos? Yes, the IC has a MoK.

At this point, the first conditional is completely satisfied and the 'then' clause must be immediately applied:

"...may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos."
Does the Unit have a 'different' Mark of Chaos? No, the Unit also has a MoK.

At this point, the second conditional has been satisfied and the conclusion is applied depending on the 'difference' of the Marks.

The Independent Character may join the unit.

The problem with Abaddon is that because the rule is very succinctly divided into a singular ("a Mark"), double-conditional, it cannot be applied en masse to all four marks at once. So we must apply the conditional statement individually, with respect to each of his Marks, in order.

Unfortunately, when we do this, we immediately find that as soon as we apply the rule to Abaddon's second Mark (assuming the Unit's Mark did not differ from Abaddon's first Mark we compared) we violate the second conditional —namely that the MoK (in the above example) differs from Abaddon's MoN (or MoT, or MoS, whichever we choose to compare next) and are forced to prevent him joining the Unit.

I personally believe the RAI is that he should be able to join. A quick (albeit somewhat clumsy) fix would be something like "If a Unit has a Mark of Chaos, an IC may not join that unit unless they also have that Mark of Chaos."

DoW

 DogOfWar wrote:
I personally believe the RAI is that he should be able to join. A quick (albeit somewhat clumsy) fix would be something like "If a Unit has a Mark of Chaos, an IC may not join that unit unless they also have that Mark of Chaos."

That would prevent unMarked ICs from joining Marked units.

DogofWar, you are reading 'an independant character with a mark of chaos' as if it is talking about a specifi mark there. Mark of chaos is just a generic term. If you have kharn with his mark of khorne, you dont read the rule as "An independant character with the mark of khorne," which is what you just said you do.

If you change a generic term for a specific one, you change the meaning completely. In the above example, by changing mark of chaos to mark of khorne, it only applies to one mark. We know the rule doesnt apply to a single mark, it applies to any mark.

The way you are incorrectly reading 'an independant character with a mark of chaos,' you have to apply the rule to abbadon 4 seperate times. That is insanity. The rule does not say apply it for each mark at all, nor do you ever apply 1 rule multiple times, nor do you replace key words in a rule for a more specific version as if that is the word for word rule.

Instead, 'An independant character with a mark of chaos' is a boolean expression. Either you are marked, or you are not. Kharn is marked, Abbadon is marked. For a boolean expression, the number of marks or kind of mark does not matter, its a simple true/false.

So when talking about Abbadon, who is an independant character with a mark of chaos, the rule simply reads:

Abbadon 'can not join a unit with a different mark of chaos.'

You do NOT read it for Abbadon as:

A model with the mark of khorne may not join a unit with the mark of tzeentch, nurgle or slaneesh.

A model with the mark of Tzeentch may not join a unit with the mark of khorne, nurgle or slaneesh.

A model with the mark slaneesh... ect ect.

DogofWar, do you see how your application, where you sub out the general term 'mark of chaos' for the specific marks and apply 1 rule 4 completely different ways also completely changes the meaning of the rule?

You first posts, with ordered logic, were much better, and once you fixed your faulty steps would have arrived at the same conclusion.

You are, after all, saying that the box of 8 crayons contains 8 different colors crayons that the 24 box holds, despite the 24 box HOLDING THE SAME COLORS OF CRAYONS.

You, along with others, seem to have grossly missed the point of what being different means when talking about groups, and continue to fall back on true, but completely irrelevant examples of 2 different things that does not apply to the rule.

For example, the boxes of crayons. Or the fruit of which several kinds exist. Or cars mentioned before.

Consider, what are your most recent 2 makes of car. I had a Focus and Berretta. According to your incorrect logic, when talking about the group of my 2 recent cars, if I wanted to by a new car that was different to those 2, like abbadon looking for a unit with a different mark, I SHOULD CHOOSE A CAR THAT I ALREADY HAVE FOR MY DIFFERENT CAR MAKE!. However, THAT IS NOT A DIFFERENT CAR MAKE!

If I had a focus and a berretta, and want a DIFFERENT car than those two, HOW IS A FOCUS DIFFERENT?

That is EXACTLY what you are saying with the marks of chaos that abbadon has.

Abbadon has the marks of Khorne, Nurgle, Slaneesh, and Tzeentch. According to you, if Abbadon wanted a DIFFERENT MARK then he should choose khorne? Khorne is not a different mark to him!

I feel like gamesworkshop writes these badly written rules on purpose to keep people from uniting against their annual price hikes.....

The rule isn't asking for a comparison of marks though. It doesn't tell you to check each mark against each other.

It says a character with a mark as the identifier. Who does the rule apply to? A character with a mark.

Cannot join a unit. Here is the effect.

With a different mark. This is the exception.

Abaddon is a marked character. He goes to join berserkers. Are they in possession of a similar mark? Yes. He can join.

Savageconvoy, I would say it that the berserkers mark is not different from the set of marks abbadon has. But I know what you ment.

They are also in possession of a different mark. So you cannot join.

You have been denied permission to join 3 times, and allowed once. You dont get to join

Again: why are you only checking the similar mark? You are explicitly told to look for DIFFERENCES in the units and characters Mark!

nosferatu1001 wrote:
They are also in possession of a different mark. So you cannot join.

You have been denied permission to join 3 times, and allowed once. You dont get to join

Again: why are you only checking the similar mark? You are explicitly told to look for DIFFERENCES in the units and characters Mark!

So we can make cute little partial analogies about kittens, fruit, and crayons... of course.

'An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos.'

Here we go again... Abby doesn't have a mark, he has four marks. You can be cute about it but the fact is he has more than a mark.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
'An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos.'

Here we go again... Abby doesn't have a mark, he has four marks. You can be cute about it but the fact is he has more than a mark.

But he has a mark. And therefore the rule applies. It was addressed in the this thread.

After a quick read it is clear that Abbadon can join with a unit that has one of his Mark of Chaos.
He has them no doubt about it.
Note, he did not purchase a Mark. He just has them.

castellan wrote:
After a quick read it is clear that Abbadon can join a unit with a unit that has one of his Mark of Chaos.
He has them no doubt about it.
Note, he did not purchase a Mark. He just has them.

And that has absolute nothing to do with the debate at hand.

rigeld2 wrote:

castellan wrote:
After a quick read it is clear that Abbadon can join a unit with a unit that has one of his Mark of Chaos.
He has them no doubt about it.
Note, he did not purchase a Mark. He just has them.

And that has absolute nothing to do with the debate at hand.

I think it does.
Even if it does not, I can still make a comment.

castellan wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

castellan wrote:
After a quick read it is clear that Abbadon can join a unit with a unit that has one of his Mark of Chaos.
He has them no doubt about it.
Note, he did not purchase a Mark. He just has them.

And that has absolute nothing to do with the debate at hand.

I think it does.
Even if it does not, I can still make a comment.

What relevance does him purchasing the Marks or not have?

rigeld2 wrote:

castellan wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

castellan wrote:
After a quick read it is clear that Abbadon can join a unit with a unit that has one of his Mark of Chaos.
He has them no doubt about it.
Note, he did not purchase a Mark. He just has them.

And that has absolute nothing to do with the debate at hand.

I think it does.
Even if it does not, I can still make a comment.

What relevance does him purchasing the Marks or not have?

It means that the game or codex gives or assigns 4 Marks of Chaos.
Look at page 30. Then take a look at page 57.
I have read this entire thread with interest.. So much so that I decided to see for myself. For me and for now the answer is clear.

Yes. He has all 4 marks.
Maybe you could clarify why the "ownership" of the marks is relevant?

rigeld2 wrote:
Yes. He has all 4 marks.
Maybe you could clarify why the "ownership" of the marks is relevant?

I am sorry but I don't know what you mean by "ownership".
I say that he has 4 Marks of Chaos. If a unit has one of those 4 marks he may join it.

castellan wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Yes. He has all 4 marks.
Maybe you could clarify why the "ownership" of the marks is relevant?

I am sorry but I don't know what you mean by "ownership".
I say that he has 4 Marks of Chaos. If a unit has one of those 4 marks he may join it.

And that begs the question:

If you are only comparing the unit's MoK to Abby's MoK then why are you arbitrarily picking the common mark and ignoring the different marks?

castellan wrote:
I am sorry but I don't know what you mean by "ownership".

You made a point of talking about the fact Abby doesn't purchase his Marks. What relevance does that have?

I say that he has 4 Marks of Chaos. If a unit has one of those 4 marks he may join it.

He also has 3 Marks that are different from the Unit's Mark.

 DeathReaper wrote:

castellan wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Yes. He has all 4 marks.
Maybe you could clarify why the "ownership" of the marks is relevant?

I am sorry but I don't know what you mean by "ownership".
I say that he has 4 Marks of Chaos. If a unit has one of those 4 marks he may join it.

And that begs the question:

If you are only comparing the unit's MoK to Abby's MoK then why are you arbitrarily picking the common mark and ignoring the different marks?

I did not arbitrarily pick. It is there. I did not ignore. I read the other included Marks and he still has them.