No one said anything about jumping forward in time. Just... not pretending that the aliens around at the time mysteriously don't exist and won't try to take advantage of everything going on.
And that the canonical, recorded battles against said xenos didn't happen - Fulgrim and the Emperor's Children, for example, were happily shooting eldar in the face around the time of the daemonsword fiasco.
But you have the game that does exactly what you want - lots of xenos and stuff. Its called Wh40k and have everything you need.
I like Horus Heresy the way it is. Sometimes less is more.
However i would like to see Epic and Adeptus Titanicus have their 40k iterations with xenos just like you have Warhammer 40k game.
Gert wrote: My favourite HH thing is that Land Speeders have a Chainsword as a combat weapon which means World Eaters can swap it for Chainaxes.
Land Speeders aren't vehicles, they are chariots.
Cheap land speeders are legitimately good for WE. They can drop in / move rapidly up the board and tie up valuable shooty units.
They won't kill much, but with T5 and a solid amount of wounds they'll generally take a shooty unit out of the game for a turn or 2, and if they get in on a 5 man support / seeker / heavy weapons squad, they might just win.
EDIT: That said, I would eat my shoes if GW ever released official Xenos content for 30k. It'd make it a very literal direct competitor with 40k, which would be stupid even by their low-brow standards.
morganfreeman wrote: 30k seems legitimately better in every way, unless you absolutely cannot love without seeing your sm gunning down orks or something.
Or, if, like me, your primary army (and love) is Orks, which somehow were a HUGE threat at Ullanor but never troubled anyone ever again until after the Heresy.
"Look, da humies is havin' wot we call a family crisis, so we should just give 'em some time to work it out. Then come back in, say, a thousand years and krump 'em all good."
probably too busy starting the process of turning Ullanor into an attackmoon.
No one said anything about jumping forward in time. Just... not pretending that the aliens around at the time mysteriously don't exist and won't try to take advantage of everything going on.
And that the canonical, recorded battles against said xenos didn't happen - Fulgrim and the Emperor's Children, for example, were happily shooting eldar in the face around the time of the daemonsword fiasco.
But you have the game that does exactly what you want - lots of xenos and stuff. Its called Wh40k and have everything you need.
That's under the assumption 40k has functional rules though.
I reckon you could probably make an okay Xenos counts as using the militia rules. Certainly for orks with the combat varients. The third line rule also works great for looted wagons.
That's under the assumption 40k has functional rules though.
As much as I think 40k is a dumpster fire getting more trash thrown on it daily. There are a ton of folks who like wombo-combo of the month games. And 40k does have in general excellent miniatures.
Just because you don't like the current edition of 40k, doesn't mean you get to force Xenos rules into HH. Go play another edition you do like rather than forcing unnecessary additions to a good game.
Just because you don't like the current edition of 40k, doesn't mean you get to force Xenos rules into HH. Go play another edition you do like rather than forcing unnecessary additions to a good game.
Just because you don't like the current edition of 40k, doesn't mean you get to force Xenos rules into HH. Go play another edition you do like rather than forcing unnecessary additions to a good game.
it's not forcing anything... these factions already exist in the fluff.... (except tau i guess)
Just because you don't like the current edition of 40k, doesn't mean you get to force Xenos rules into HH. Go play another edition you do like rather than forcing unnecessary additions to a good game.
it's not forcing anything... these factions already exist in the fluff.... (except tau i guess)
But on the otherhand there is all sorts of other weird creatures you could put together to represent pre heresy xenos fights. You want to play out the battles on Murder? Do a pitched battle with bad odds for the marines against some nids to represent the various types of megarachnids.. Hold out long enough to send out the distress signal the other marines picked up.
The HH era is interesting for both the large scale drama of betrayal but also the weird alien races humanity faced.
Just because you don't like the current edition of 40k, doesn't mean you get to force Xenos rules into HH. Go play another edition you do like rather than forcing unnecessary additions to a good game.
it's not forcing anything... these factions already exist in the fluff.... (except tau i guess)
And Tyranids and Necrons and GSC.
Not necessarily true for Tyranids and Necrons. Necrons have the Triarch units active the whole time and 90% sure there's recorded cases for two Tyranid fleets (or at least rumored), so there's entirely justification for them to be encountered during the Great Crusade or the Heresy itself.
Just because you don't like the current edition of 40k, doesn't mean you get to force Xenos rules into HH. Go play another edition you do like rather than forcing unnecessary additions to a good game.
Did the Marines never fight ANYTHING but Marines during the Heresy? Literally nothing ever cropped up?
40K fans are weird like that.. They are not content on sticking to 40K, they want to corrupt all GW's scifi games with their stuff.. They already corrupting KT21 thread with their wishlisting, and now on this thread too..
GW really should sell rules for all their legacy 40K editions, seems like there is a market for 40K fans who hate the current edition with a passion
Did the Marines never fight ANYTHING but Marines during the Heresy? Literally nothing ever cropped up?
Pretty much no. Nothing was remotely strong enough.
The Ulanar (sp) triumph was basically the end of the great crusade as a challenging endeavor / actual war. The last big threat had been shattered and all that was left was mopping up the remnants, but said remnants (including eldar craftworlds) were completely incapable of putting up any form of actual challenge. Say what you want about 40k fluff (I say it's poorly written) but when it comes to exterminating sectoral empires or destroying an eldar craftworld, a single full-strength modern chapter is generally overkill. The legions numbered in the hundreds of thousands with substantially better equipment and none of the current gene defects (except the blood angels liked drinking blood and Angron was giving his legion brain damage). Even the awakening necron empires would have, in accordance with fluff, gotten their gak handed to them on a silver platter. Even hive fleets would've been routinely dumpstered; again I think that's dumb, but it's lore as it stands.
The Eldar did have a very small hand in trying to prevent Fulgrim from being corrupted, and they probably had some invisible involvement here and there to direct things, but other than that no one else had the subtly to get involved and even they lacked the actual force to be involved.
The primary focus of the heresy was in retaking (or defending) captured worlds / purging traitor worlds while making a blitzkrieg push for the Sol system to try and unseat the emperor. No one was interested in purging small pockets of xenos, and said xenos were not interested in messing with the Imperium after the unholy can of genocide it had been unleashing on the galaxy. There was probably some ork involvement but again, 500 marines of a 200,000 strong legion getting sent off to curb-stomp an ork waaagh in the span of a few weeks isn't even worth calling a foot note. And any Waaagh which made contact with any legion force would be promptly annihilated without fuss due to the strength and tech of said legions.
I mean, you could say that about most factions at their height in 40k lore. Eldar, Necrons, Humanity, Orks even current nids. They could wipe out any individual other race, usually not doing so because of internal fighting like a heresy, some galactic calamity like the birth of Slanessh or multiple races having to broteam for a bit to fight back a bigger threat ala blood angels and crons vs nids.
Why they don't? Plot contrivances mostly.
But there has been times when a threat would need multiple expeditionary fleets to take care of. Murder as an example. Would they be able to stand up to one of the larger legions? Nah. But may have wiped out or made ineffective one of the smaller legions.
We are living in the golden age of the hobby. Lots of plastic releases, plethora of old editions rules, alternative systems like One Page Rules and more, 3d printers.... There was nothing like this back in the day.
...and someone tells me he doesnt like the current 40k rules? You know what i did when 40k hit the 8th edition and i didnt like rules/fluff? I changed the system to play. I started Horus Heresy and now its my main system. It wasnt easy several years ago as i had to work to build the environment for it in my city - find players, teach new ones.
If you dont like the current 40k dont force yourself to play it but find alternative. Start it and work to build the environment for it. It wouldnt be easy but believe me you will find other like minded people that for example like 4th edition 40k or One Page Rules. These people are hidden and you just have to find them.
Just because you don't like the current edition of 40k, doesn't mean you get to force Xenos rules into HH. Go play another edition you do like rather than forcing unnecessary additions to a good game.
Fan rules hurt who again?
I can understand the need / want to keep 30k 30k. And from the official side i hope that the smaller focus on more similar factions does indeed improve the quality of the game. And there are some pitfalls already present in 30k which i think need adressing first before we port over certain other factions. F.e. Dreadnoughts being far to sturdy is already a problem, i'd rather not see an uber kan wall.
Otoh, the fact that this many people decided that 30k looks better from a mechanical and factiondesign standpoint should be indicative that a lot went wrong with the mainline ruleset, i should know, i am too basically someone that switched due to an piling on of bad design and rules descisions for my factions, well piling in sofar as my main force got squated and my CSM got gutted...
BUT, 30k has thankfully a lot of lists that are very customisable and with a bit of fantasy you could easily represent proto-tau, eldar, etc.Which if you also go the full length should with kitbashes etc. make for an awesome game in itself.
Edit: as an aside, GW legended recently HH units out of 40k , including but not limited to a whole lot of daemonengines, especially Decimators and the Xana lineage of fighters / Fighterbombers make no sense whatsoever to be declared HH units ... but realistically, i don't think many people would be mad if one would use Decimators for Dark-mech count as bots. The whole episode does show a disheartening lack of knowledge about the universe tough, or respectivly that directives from the financialdepartment still trump universe rules.
EviscerationPlague wrote: Did the Marines never fight ANYTHING but Marines during the Heresy? Literally nothing ever cropped up?
Sure they did, other human factions such as the Mechanicum, Titan Legions, Imperial Army, and local militia forces. The closest thing to Xenos either side fought was Daemons.
If we take the start of the Heresy to be the culling at Isstvan III and the Burning of Prospero, then the only confirmed instance of an Imperial force fighting Xenos is the White Scars doing Ullanor cleanup duties at Chondax where they ended up fighting the Alpha Legion, which is the focus of that campaign.
The Orks were literally a sideshow to keep the White Scars occupied until Horus could maneuver events to get the Scars on his side. The Scars themselves didn't even see the need to be purging Chondax because the Ork presence was so minimal it wasn't a real threat but the Khan took the assignment out of loyalty and so that he could keep doing what he wanted out of the view of Imperial bureaucracy.
The only other time Xenos "enemies" show up is the Cabal who did no actual fighting and IIRC some Chaos-corrupted species were used as fodder alongside the Chaos Cults and Traitor Imperial Army units during the Siege of Terra.
Just because you don't like the current edition of 40k, doesn't mean you get to force Xenos rules into HH. Go play another edition you do like rather than forcing unnecessary additions to a good game.
I wasn't trying to force Xenos rules into Horus Heresy. I was responding to the sentiment that if you aren't enthusiastic about the current 40K ruleset, you can just jump ship to Horus Heresy, another GW-supported game. I was pointing out that glib solution doesn't work for quite a few players, who play something other than Imperials (or ex-Imperials).
Obviously, it's not impossible (given the existence of fan edits), but also obviously, given the prevalence of the above sentiment (which I don't even disagree with), it's also not a simple, easy solution.
Da Butcha wrote: I wasn't trying to force Xenos rules into Horus Heresy. I was responding to the sentiment that if you aren't enthusiastic about the current 40K ruleset, you can just jump ship to Horus Heresy, another GW-supported game. I was pointing out that glib solution doesn't work for quite a few players, who play something other than Imperials (or ex-Imperials).
Obviously, it's not impossible (given the existence of fan edits), but also obviously, given the prevalence of the above sentiment (which I don't even disagree with), it's also not a simple, easy solution.
I wasn't quoting or responding to you at all. I also don't think anyone has actually claimed that if people are disappointed with 40k that they should do HH instead because it's not for everyone, especially those who play Xenos armies.
What has been said is that 40kCSM players who want to play their Legions as they are meant to be played should play HH instead because the game does their rules far better than 40k has in a very long time.
leopard wrote: I'd be happy with Xenos in the 30k timeframe, I'd be even happier if all the HH units in the books were available first though
Fun fact, the majority of the "30k timeframe" takes place within the 40k ruleset. The Heresy officially ends in 15.M31 with the Second Founding taking place in 21.M31 and Roboute Guilliman's reforms turning the Imperial Army into the Guard and Navy. With the Mechanicus formally turned into an Adeptus during the Heresy and the Custodes swearing to never leave the Emperor's side again, the last vestiges of the old Imperium are wiped away when the last Loyal Primarch disappears by 209.M31.
When the War of the Beast breaks out in 500.M32, the Heresy is forgotten and the Primarchs are revered as Saints by the Imperial Creed. Some warriors of the old Legions still survive such as Maximus Thane but the time of the Legions is long dead.
Not necessarily true for Tyranids and Necrons. Necrons have the Triarch units active the whole time and 90% sure there's recorded cases for two Tyranid fleets (or at least rumored), so there's entirely justification for them to be encountered during the Great Crusade or the Heresy itself.
Tyranids literally only know about the galaxy because of an event in the Horus Heresy that they didn't partake in. And while the Triarchs and Trazyn are both active during the Heresy, the Triarchs are active for the reason of making sure that the rest of the Necrons aren't breaking the rules, one of which is to not draw attention to themselves by partaking in events of the galaxy(as mentioned in The Infinite and The Divine, which begins during the Heresy).
Throwing another log onto the fire: Part of the appeal of 40k is that every race is equally fethed and, despite that, your dudes can have their own story that actually works.
Any sort of xeno race playing in the HH - let alone the great crusade - doesn’t have that benefit. The army would be absolutely dead via the mere act of making contact, because even if they win the game they’re pretty much immediately pasted by the rest of the legion present. Or within a few days due being in proximity or a legion force.
GaroRobe wrote: Isn’t that basically just genestealers cults tho? You either die or live long enough to become dinner
Massively oversimplified yes. And the reason Xenos shouldn't be in the Heresy isn't because they're underdogs, it's because they were contained and/or wiped out during the Crusade.
The only argument anyone can come up with is "Oh but they were in the galaxy" which is beyond weak.
GaroRobe wrote: Isn’t that basically just genestealers cults tho? You either die or live long enough to become dinner
Massively oversimplified yes. And the reason Xenos shouldn't be in the Heresy isn't because they're underdogs, it's because they were contained and/or wiped out during the Crusade.
The only argument anyone can come up with is "Oh but they were in the galaxy" which is beyond weak.
they would be quite easy to include, they are there, they are not the main focus, their impact is felt as they divert resources from other actions. Maureens likely only go for Xenos if they are an immediate threat, or in the immediate way, there being little in the way of actively going for them as policy as people at a tad busy, take a ticket and wait your turn etc.
what could work though is a campaign thing with the Imperium at near the top of its game, facing Xenos pretty much as they are in 40k, where the balance is the Imperial lists vary to reflect the lower theatre of concern
that and limited special operations raids - e.g. forget taking on the orks as such, go blow some generator up to slow them down etc
they were there, the fact they are not the focus of the story should actually be integrated, they are on the edges, not full factions but smaller more specific forces designed for some scenarios
e.g. have them with a campaign focus, a sort of "wandering monster" almost, they are not an actual faction but occasionally Imperial players are assigned a raid etc to drag resources away. could also be a decent campaign balancing factor
Massively oversimplified yes. And the reason Xenos shouldn't be in the Heresy isn't because they're underdogs, it's because they were contained and/or wiped out during the Crusade.
The only argument anyone can come up with is "Oh but they were in the galaxy" which is beyond weak.
The only argument that works - is it profitable for GW?
Everything else is just babbling and wishlisting.
However what is profitable for GW doesnt necessarily means its good for the players or the game itself. In my HH community i dont see people wishlisting for xenos. Its very rare if it even happens. They just dont do it. Because they accept the game as it is and they like it as it is. As do i.
The only people who want to put their own stuff into HH are 40k folks.
To the 40k folk: guys you have your own game with lots of releases. You have 10 editions to play with, lots of players. Just stick to your own game. HH isnt for you and it will not be if you want to radically change the theme of it. Peace!
I think it could well be profitable, though depends on GW being able to keep up as would require more books etc as they then have the same models on sale to more players
I'd quite like the option to run some Xenos, and I don't play 40k
I was under the impression that the reason "7th edition rules" works in HH, but were horrible in 40k, was more or less because "marines fighting marines" with the same gear and weapons, is way more easy to balance than having the whole 40k setting of colourful factions get along.
Including xenos would be a mistake, IMO. Better keep it simple.
I was under the impression that the reason "7th edition rules" works in HH, but were horrible in 40k, was more or less because "marines fighting marines" with the same gear and weapons, is way more easy to balance than having the whole 40k setting of colourful factions get along.
Including xenos would be a mistake, IMO. Better keep it simple.
40k is balanced? Since when? As usual it isn't the base rules that cause imbalance. It is the army rules, be it 30k or 40k.
We're about to hit the summer release point and as soon as 10th is out of the way it'll be the Cerastus Lancer and the new Characters/upgrades.
The Characters bit is what interests me and our group was discussing who we think it could be last night with the biggest bets going on someone like Nassir Amit, Azkaellon or Forrix.
Having xenos races in the heresy doesn't make sense from a fluff perspective. We know that the great crusade had crushed the biggest treats in the galaxy. The orks were broke at Ullanor. The eldar were basically hiding on their craftworlds. Tau / Necrons / Tyranids weren't around.
The war of the beasts novels are set in the 32nd millennium and the imperium is caught off guard as they haven't faced a major treat since the end of the heresy, having know a time of relative piece. It took the orks that long to recover enough to pose a real threat again.
So I hope they keep the heresy focused on whats important, i.e. the heresy itself.
Let's be honest, many of us want Xenos in 30k simply because the rules and "gameplay" for modern 40k are such a mess, including what we have seen so far for 10th.
Gnarlly wrote: Let's be honest, many of us want Xenos in 30k simply because the rules and "gameplay" for modern 40k are such a mess, including what we have seen so far for 10th.
You're...not wrong!
I can see keeping HH as HH, but I would really welcome a "Great Crusade" supplement - could be done in one big book, maybe?
I guess if we're lucky we might see a line expanding into the Scourging Era...
Alpharius wrote: I would really welcome a "Great Crusade" supplement - could be done in one big book, maybe?
That would be awesome to have. Eradication of various xenos, and corrupted (at least from the point of view of Imperials) human cultures was one of the most interesting things in HH books.
Alpharius wrote: I would really welcome a "Great Crusade" supplement - could be done in one big book, maybe?
That would be awesome to have. Eradication of various xenos, and corrupted (at least from the point of view of Imperials) human cultures was one of the most interesting things in HH books.
could even see various "minor factions" that are not part of 40k, and due to the events of the time can't ever really be in 40k
Alpharius wrote: I would really welcome a "Great Crusade" supplement - could be done in one big book, maybe?
That would be awesome to have. Eradication of various xenos, and corrupted (at least from the point of view of Imperials) human cultures was one of the most interesting things in HH books.
could even see various "minor factions" that are not part of 40k, and due to the events of the time can't ever really be in 40k
Yeah, many minor and major conflicts that could be relived in all various historical scenarios. Imagine Rangdan xenocides or Interex campaign.
exactly, could even, dare I say it, present fixed forces for scenarios as the Xenos side with a "historical" imperial force that can be changed about (thus limiting whatever needs to be presented to just "that which was there" so to speak)
ideally alongside some decent imperial campaign stuff - e.g. a campaign book for imperial stuff in HH, but with a side scenario of a raid or something
If they did a Great Crusade supplement, I wouldn't want it to include any of the 40k xenos factions, give me the weird gak like the megarachnids and rangdan. I may make an exception for the orks since they were a prominent opponent, but the other 40k xenos factions generally played a smaller role
PetitionersCity wrote: It suggests there were a good number of Xenos incursions during the heresy, not after it or before it.
I read that as an increase in Chaos powered / corrupted Xenos encounters, rather than just general Xenos.
I honestly think that's reading the text with a lens over it; it just says the "foulest Xenos breeds" and then the daemonic incursions - the former is not stated as connected to Chaos.
We know all Xenos weren't gone - enough that Horus could use the threat of more Xenos as a way to fool two of his brothers, and keep another occupied. The Xenos still had to be legitimate threats to the imperium for that to occur, even if both Guiliman and Sanguinius and their forces were subject to false flag operations.
It's also the issue that vast empires aren't flat or consistent - an empire is strongest always close to a major centre, but the territory in-between is much less "controlled" or orthodox, the sense of being part of that empire increasingly liminal, and then very much barely present if at all. And then space itself isn't flat, is something much harder to lay claim to or control every cubal piece of - nevermind the way the warp plays with space and travel. I think those wonderful 2d maps misrepresent the galaxy, give as a false sense of what domain actually is, pretending imperial power is hegemonic when it is not.
In his geographical treatise of 1537, the Portuguese cosmographer Dom João de Castro explained that it would be possible to correlate all newly discovered lands with astronomical markers to produce an accurate map of the world. The result would be, he wrote, a “true and perfect geography.” The movement toward this vision, from the cartographic revolution of thirteenth-century portolan charts to the use of surveying to map colonial territories in the nineteenth century, is a compelling narrative of the rationalization of space, and of the reinforcement of this trend by the pursuit of European imperial interests.
This narrative needs to be placed alongside the history of imperfect geographies and the production in empire of variegated spaces with an uncertain relation to imperial power. Territorial control was, in many places, an incidental aim of imperial expansion. While an iconic association with empire is the pink shading of British imperial possessions in nineteenth- and early twentieth-century maps, that image, and others like it, obscures the many variations of imperial territories. Empires did not cover space evenly but composed a fabric that was full of holes, stitched together out of pieces, a tangle of strings. Even in the most paradigmatic cases, an empire's spaces were politically fragmented; legally differentiated; and encased in irregular, porous, and sometimes undefined borders. Although empires did lay claim to vast stretches of territory, the nature of such claims was tempered by control that was exercised mainly over narrow bands, or corridors, and over enclaves and irregular zones around them.
Nevermind what lies beyond nominal imperial space and might like to take advantage of the chaos? The slaugth, the rakgol, the whatevers and unknowns, pirates, raiders and even those many worlds not yet brought into compliance with god knows what Xenos oppressors or abomination variants of humanity....
tauist wrote: Looks like my hopes for double dipping in HH2 & 40K 10th edition are still kept on life support
To be fair, if the intent is to do that from the start it could be pretty decently planned out, you'd just have less options. Proxy Mk6 for Intercessors, or helblasters if given all plasma / missile marines with all missile launcher / infernus for all flamers. Mk4s as old school Tac squads. Rhino's as Rhino's and Preds as Preds, just watch the upgrades. Similarly for Landraider / terminators. Leviathan as redemption variants (again watch weapon options).
Not saying it would be optimized, but definitely options out there.
Maybe a Field Manual addendum?
Probably that they used the same template for the Legends cards and the regular cards don't have a spot for points cost.
If someone is interested in Eldar rules for HH2.0 there were posted some few days ago on the internet. Didnt check them myself but if you want here they are.
tauist wrote: Looks like my hopes for double dipping in HH2 & 40K 10th edition are still kept on life support
To be fair, if the intent is to do that from the start it could be pretty decently planned out, you'd just have less options. Proxy Mk6 for Intercessors, or helblasters if given all plasma / missile marines with all missile launcher / infernus for all flamers. Mk4s as old school Tac squads. Rhino's as Rhino's and Preds as Preds, just watch the upgrades. Similarly for Landraider / terminators. Leviathan as redemption variants (again watch weapon options).
Not saying it would be optimized, but definitely options out there.
Yeah, I got it all planned out already. These legends datasheets already made a vast majority of my upcoming army compatible with both systems. Caestus Assault Ram is the only sheet missing, and I already decided to use it "counts as" stormraven or something. Just need to magnetize or blu-tac my Indomi termies Crux Terminatus shoulderpads, to swap em out for blanks for HH
morganfreeman wrote: 30k seems legitimately better in every way, unless you absolutely cannot love without seeing your sm gunning down orks or something.
Games are longer, the game itself is more complex, depending on where you live it can be nearly impossible to find a game locally, an army is more expensive you're using anything from FW, and not everyone wants to play SM or SM adjacent faction. The 30k rules are better IMO but it doesn't matter if nobody else in your area plays the game.
Games are longer, the game itself is more complex, depending on where you live it can be nearly impossible to find a game locally, an army is more expensive you're using anything from FW, and not everyone wants to play SM or SM adjacent faction. The 30k rules are better IMO but it doesn't matter if nobody else in your area plays the game.
Very fair. I ignored it for a long time because no xenos. I'd also add that, at least for melee lists, it's almost not feasible unless you have a printer.
I'd like to qualify the "more complex", however. Certainly there's more fiddly equipment rules, but there are no wombo combo gotcha cards. Games are actually battles, where units behave more or less the same, just with an edge in some aspect like Initiative or Weapon Skill, and games are not races on who can fire off 3 abilities concurrently to get 60 attacks with mortal wounds on 4+ or whatever first.
I actually like how the armies, while broadly similar, fight differently. You have far fewer "I have this so I win" things and you have to actually try to fight it out and find the edge you can find to win
TwilightSparkles wrote: Complaining that players don’t want marine armies in Heresy is like buying Age of Sigmar and complaining that most units don’t have guns.
That's a little unfair. The current discussion stems from us inviting folks disappointed with 40k to play Heresy, and some responding with things like "thanks but I'm not interested in a game where I can't play Orks" for example, which is a perfectly legitimate stance. I don't think anybody just came here to complain about too many Marines unprovoked.
TwilightSparkles wrote: Where I play we can usually do 3k in 2-3 hours even running to last turn , 4k 3-3.5 hours. That’s fast.
Complaining that players don’t want marine armies in Heresy is like buying Age of Sigmar and complaining that most units don’t have guns.
It is really surprisingly fast, despite supposedly being full of mechanics that slow down the game like "templates and the inevitable spreading out" or armor value.
You can easily do a 1 k game in 1.5 hours and go for a coffee.
TwilightSparkles wrote: Complaining that players don’t want marine armies in Heresy is like buying Age of Sigmar and complaining that most units don’t have guns.
That's a little unfair. The current discussion stems from us inviting folks disappointed with 40k to play Heresy, and some responding with things like "thanks but I'm not interested in a game where I can't play Orks" for example, which is a perfectly legitimate stance. I don't think anybody just came here to complain about too many Marines unprovoked.
I rekon there will be an exodus of veteran CSM players into 30k, after the joke of a legending. But for xenos i honestly think some will bite through the 10th edition whilest others will leave or find oldhammer groups.
It's a shame though that those have no option for a xeno list. Even if it were just an diy type of list like militia.
skeleton wrote: You could always take your armybook from the 7 edition to play orks or other xenos.
As has been proposed, but whilest that may work decently well with orks... Eldar or tau would probably get to the point of the break down in the system easily...
I don't even know what to expect. I certainly hope they don't show the plastic Cerastus again. We've already seem that.
I'd like to see any of the following...
Plastic Xiphon
Plastic MkII
A build it yourself praetor/centurion a-la the old space marine commander kit.
Plastic Fellblade
Snrub wrote: I don't even know what to expect. I certainly hope they don't show the plastic Cerastus again. We've already seem that.
There's a variant as well which had the weapons leaked, IIRC.
I'd like to see any of the following...
Plastic Xiphon
Plastic MkII
A build it yourself praetor/centurion a-la the old space marine commander kit.
Plastic Fellblade
I'd like to see a genuine dedication to a non-Marine faction. Now would be a great time to throw out an Imperial Army kit, given that the Guard still have the Infantry Squad unit entry...which none of the named Regiment boxes can technically build, as they do not include a heavy weapons team.
Sadly I think the plastic Fellblade ship sailed when they re-tooled the resin one for the modern plastic weapons. I'd be very happy to be wrong however.
I have a feeling it will be the rest of the Cerastus variants, particularly as we have already seen a leaked sprue of another one. They may show the Assault Squad but it looked at such an early stage at Fest there may not be much more to see.
At a guess it will many be the non Lancer Summer stuff and the Autumn road map releases to stick to the current tradition (bar TOW) of showing stuff for 3 odd months in the future. I doubt we will see anything of the mystery army release.
I expect more details on the items indicated for Autumn's roadmap - New Lords of War (Knight variants), plastic Deredeo, New armour mark (that MkII / MkIII we were shown an image of), and one of the Primarchs resculpted.
I'm actually looking forward to the new armour mark the most.. Should also sell off my resin Deredeos I guess, before nobody wants them anymore. I don't mind resin per se, but looking at the recent plastic dreadnought redesigns, the new plastic kit will have superior posability over the resin model no doubt, and IMHO when it comes to dreads, posability is key for not making the models look derp
Ah yes, and some more drip feed regarding Legiones Astartes
ListenToMeWarriors wrote: At a guess it will many be the non Lancer Summer stuff and the Autumn road map releases to stick to the current tradition (bar TOW) of showing stuff for 3 odd months in the future. I doubt we will see anything of the mystery army release.
Most likely this. The resin stuff for summer, some more pictures of the Lancer and its weapon options, plus maybe some teases at the Autumn stuff (Primarch?).
The Winter releases - "mystery army" and all that - are way too far off for anything substential already.
ListenToMeWarriors wrote: At a guess it will many be the non Lancer Summer stuff and the Autumn road map releases to stick to the current tradition (bar TOW) of showing stuff for 3 odd months in the future. I doubt we will see anything of the mystery army release.
Most likely this. The resin stuff for summer, some more pictures of the Lancer and its weapon options, plus maybe some teases at the Autumn stuff (Primarch?).
The Winter releases - "mystery army" and all that - are way too far off for anything substential already.
I have a strong feeling that this preview is just the second half of what we could have seen at Warhammerfest in a normal year, which they deliberately held back to have something for the non-40k people immediately after their 8+ weeks of total 40k dominance
ListenToMeWarriors wrote: At a guess it will many be the non Lancer Summer stuff and the Autumn road map releases to stick to the current tradition (bar TOW) of showing stuff for 3 odd months in the future. I doubt we will see anything of the mystery army release.
The Winter releases - "mystery army" and all that - are way too far off for anything substential already.
If Custodes get some nice plastic kits as the "Mystery Army" that would have them ready for when the 40K Custodes Codex comes out in Spring.
I think we can speculate a lot about upcoming HH reveals with the new Epic models teased:
*command squad may only have four models since it also shows the sword and volkite praetor. There's an apothecary and a standard. Not surprising.
*the melee weapon upgrade has swords, axes, charnable sabres, etc. You can see one of the assault squads armored with them
*the mystery army they'll releasing may be the solar auxillia. They're the other army in the Epic boxset and are based off the FW units, except there's also new walkers
*the mystery army they'll releasing may be the solar auxillia. They're the other army in the Epic boxset and are based off the FW units, except there's also new walkers
Someone on B&C remarked that in one of the group shoots of Legion Imperialis, one of the Malcadors has a Vanquisher turret, which never was an option with the FW models, but now in Liber Imperium the option exists as well... perhaps a hint at a future plastic Malcador for the 'mystery' army.
*the mystery army they'll releasing may be the solar auxillia. They're the other army in the Epic boxset and are based off the FW units, except there's also new walkers
Someone on B&C remarked that in one of the group shoots of Legion Imperialis, one of the Malcadors has a Vanquisher turret, which never was an option with the FW models, but now in Liber Imperium the option exists as well... perhaps a hint at a future plastic Malcador for the 'mystery' army.
Gert wrote: Probably the Cerastus. We are still waiting for whatever the FW releases are going to be as well but Summer is only a month in so there's time yet.
Except for viewers in Scotland who have their own programmes
Well the seasons go Spring (March, April, May), Summer, (June, July, August), Autumn/Fall (September, October, November), and Winter (December, January, February).
June is the first month of Summer and that's seen the release of 10th because GW always releases new editions in June. There are two more months for the Lancer and the FW parts of the HH roadmap to come along. Once the second wave of Marines and Nids has been shown (after the 10th of July), the Lancer will likely go up for pre-order and we'll know whats coming from FW in time for new Epic to be out in August.
GaroRobe wrote: I think we can speculate a lot about upcoming HH reveals with the new Epic models teased:
*command squad may only have four models since it also shows the sword and volkite praetor. There's an apothecary and a standard. Not surprising.
*the melee weapon upgrade has swords, axes, charnable sabres, etc. You can see one of the assault squads armored with them
*the mystery army they'll releasing may be the solar auxillia. They're the other army in the Epic boxset and are based off the FW units, except there's also new walkers
I was thinking exactly the same thing. I’d seen a rumour of a plastic Malcador kit too, which seems consistent with SA coming next.
Plastic Auxilia will be glorious! Also makes a ton of sense considering they can be used by both loyalists and traitors alike. I especially look forward to the tanks
I am not a fan of the upcoming MKVI Assault squad if the Epic Imperialis stuff is an indication of their looks, that backpack is "wrong type" and I don't like the new chestplate design.. So I will have to kitbash them with MKV resin Jump Packs and old 40K assault squad chestplates.. but hey, at least chestplate swaps are still doable thanks to the sculptors retaining the og chestplate dimensions the same in the new sculpts
tauist wrote: I am not a fan of the upcoming MKVI Assault squad if the Epic Imperialis stuff is an indication of their looks, that backpack is "wrong type" and I don't like the new chestplate design..
They showed the Mk6 Assault Marine renders at the last preview event so this isn't really a surprise.
tauist wrote: I am not a fan of the upcoming MKVI Assault squad if the Epic Imperialis stuff is an indication of their looks, that backpack is "wrong type" and I don't like the new chestplate design..
They showed the Mk6 Assault Marine renders at the last preview event so this isn't really a surprise.
I know, I said these same things when this sketch was released.. I just had naive hope that maybe they would still change appearance during later stages of the design.. but actually in hindsight, those were probably the final CAD masters they sent for slicing into parts for the sprues already, turnover for plastic kits is probably in the ballpark if so
just a shame the newer Mk6 are no longer legs + torso but combine them, would be nice to have a few of those legs on normal bodies for a despoiler squad
leopard wrote: just a shame the newer Mk6 are no longer legs + torso but combine them, would be nice to have a few of those legs on normal bodies for a despoiler squad
Your helmets and arms would also be too big.. but you can still razorsaw the legs separate from the torsos in a pinch
The Decurion Lanius is a cruel tank commander unique to the Sons of Horus. Emerging in the latter days of the Heresy, these hatch-mounted enforcers maintain the Warmaster’s grip by callously executing any allies who fall out of line. Designed to work with the plastic Deimos Pattern Predator, the Sicaran Battle Tank, the Sicaran Punisher, or the Kratos Heavy Assault Tank, this resin miniature also comes with a choice of heads.
The Sicaran variant I have been waiting for a while.
The Decurion Lanius is a cruel tank commander unique to the Sons of Horus. Emerging in the latter days of the Heresy, these hatch-mounted enforcers maintain the Warmaster’s grip by callously executing any allies who fall out of line. Designed to work with the plastic Deimos Pattern Predator, the Sicaran Battle Tank, the Sicaran Punisher, or the Kratos Heavy Assault Tank, this resin miniature also comes with a choice of heads.
The Sicaran variant I have been waiting for a while.
Wouldn't read too much into it. While obviously we'll get all the plastic tanks eventually, this is just a list of models that can take tank commanders in the rules, by virtue of having a hatch on the turret. IMHO it's not a hint, I doubt the person writing that blurb even knows whether the Punisher is already out in plastic or not.
Yes i rather like them, will certainly stand out on a tank as an arrogant commander watching over his forces.
Makes me wonder what a 3rd legion one would look like. Foot on the cupola, waving around a sword like a spanker or maybe with a big arse sonic speaker mounted behind him to scream things?
"Oh no."
"What?"
"Don't look now... Brother Lanius has brought his damned flag again."
"He knows he can't fit that inside the tank, right?"
"I don't know why..."
"Brothers!"
"Hey!"
"Hello Lanius."
"Another day to inspire the troops, hey?"
"You know it..."
H.B.M.C. wrote: "Oh no."
"What?"
"Don't look now... Brother Lanius has brought his damned flag again."
"He knows he can't fit that inside the tank, right?"
"I don't know why..."
"Brothers!"
"Hey!"
"Hello Lanius."
"Another day to inspire the troops, hey?"
"You know it..."
It's fine, the flag uses the same technology that allows the shoulder pads to fit through a hatch that is significantly narrower. And for units that are particularly corrupted by Chaos they just permanently mount the top half of the marine on the turret like a servitor.
H.B.M.C. wrote: "Oh no."
"What?"
"Don't look now... Brother Lanius has brought his damned flag again."
"He knows he can't fit that inside the tank, right?"
"I don't know why..."
"Brothers!"
"Hey!"
"Hello Lanius."
"Another day to inspire the troops, hey?"
"You know it..."
The lack of backpack banners is one of the worst Primaris trends.
H.B.M.C. wrote: "Oh no."
"What?"
"Don't look now... Brother Lanius has brought his damned flag again."
"He knows he can't fit that inside the tank, right?"
"I don't know why..."
"Brothers!"
"Hey!"
"Hello Lanius."
"Another day to inspire the troops, hey?"
"You know it..."
It's fine, the flag uses the same technology that allows the shoulder pads to fit through a hatch that is significantly narrower. And for units that are particularly corrupted by Chaos they just permanently mount the top half of the marine on the turret like a servitor.
You know perfectly well that the outer shoulder pads of power armour can articulate all the way up and close around the occupant’s head for extra protection, or to get through narrow openings.
H.B.M.C. wrote: "Oh no."
"What?"
"Don't look now... Brother Lanius has brought his damned flag again."
"He knows he can't fit that inside the tank, right?"
"I don't know why..."
"Brothers!"
"Hey!"
"Hello Lanius."
"Another day to inspire the troops, hey?"
"You know it..."
It's fine, the flag uses the same technology that allows the shoulder pads to fit through a hatch that is significantly narrower. And for units that are particularly corrupted by Chaos they just permanently mount the top half of the marine on the turret like a servitor.
You know perfectly well that the outer shoulder pads of power armour can articulate all the way up and close around the occupant’s head for extra protection, or to get through narrow openings.
They also come off completely, as seen in the HH tank kits that come with a sprue for the crew and pintle weapons.
ProfSrlojohn wrote: They also come off completely, as seen in the HH tank kits that come with a sprue for the crew and pintle weapons.
Indeed, although it would still be a pain trying to unclip one's pauldrons in order to get back into the hatch - especially in a hurry. Anyway, I think it's a rather nice model. It would certainly add some visual interest to a SoH Predator or Sicaran.
There are historical precedents for tank crew using flags. Before radios were common, they used small flags for signalling. And there are numerous photos of Soviet tankers in WW2 with flags. Maybe just for the camera, but it isn't as ridiculous as some seem to think.
leopard wrote: also the whole point of resin spin cast stuff is the tooling to make it is very cheap, heck for gravity cast you can do it at home.
releases like this take more manpower to make but allows some seriously specialised models
Making me wistful for the days when the whole point of Forgeworld was to randomly release cool, fluffy stuff that looked awesome and had little to no game impact.
leopard wrote: also the whole point of resin spin cast stuff is the tooling to make it is very cheap, heck for gravity cast you can do it at home.
releases like this take more manpower to make but allows some seriously specialised models
Making me wistful for the days when the whole point of Forgeworld was to randomly release cool, fluffy stuff that looked awesome and had little to no game impact.
exactly, this is nothing you couldn't proxy but looks good and is easy to come up with silly narratives for aka "drive me closer I want to hit them with my sword" level of stuff
Yes i rather like them, will certainly stand out on a tank as an arrogant commander watching over his forces.
Makes me wonder what a 3rd legion one would look like. Foot on the cupola, waving around a sword like a spanker or maybe with a big arse sonic speaker mounted behind him to scream things?
incidentally he'd look better as an arrogant ruthless commander if he wouldn't hold the flag but rather lazily point at a grunt infront of his tank or hold a binocular.
the flag should be, if at all, stuck to the hatch behind him.
H.B.M.C. wrote: "Oh no."
"What?"
"Don't look now... Brother Lanius has brought his damned flag again."
"He knows he can't fit that inside the tank, right?"
"I don't know why..."
"Brothers!"
"Hey!"
"Hello Lanius."
"Another day to inspire the troops, hey?"
"You know it..."
It's fine, the flag uses the same technology that allows the shoulder pads to fit through a hatch that is significantly narrower. And for units that are particularly corrupted by Chaos they just permanently mount the top half of the marine on the turret like a servitor.
This is fun and all but the dude does in fact not have shoulder pads.
The Decurion Lanius is a cruel tank commander unique to the Sons of Horus. Emerging in the latter days of the Heresy, these hatch-mounted enforcers maintain the Warmaster’s grip by callously executing any allies who fall out of line. Designed to work with the plastic Deimos Pattern Predator, the Sicaran Battle Tank, the Sicaran Punisher, or the Kratos Heavy Assault Tank, this resin miniature also comes with a choice of heads.
The Sicaran variant I have been waiting for a while.
What a dumb piece of lore. A tank commissar for traitor space marines. Weak. Also can't wait to see a £30 price tag for half a mini.
Still, I do like him as a model and wouldn't mind converting one to an emperor's children for my Spartan, so I may end up grabbing one later down the line...
a commander of one of the first tank battles in history, General Hugh Elles of the Royal Tank corps at Cambrai in 1917, flew a tricolor flag from his command tank. this went agaisnt orders in fact, as they had been informed they were nto to fly any sort of identifying banners. so he snuck a large green, red, and brown tricolor flag to the tank under his uniform, and raised it after starting their advance on the enemy lines. green red brown.. through mud and blood, to the green fields beyond. the unofficial motto of the Royal Tank Corps.
(said flag remains the colors of the Royal Tank regiment to this day)
"Brother Consul?" "Yes, Brother Gaspain?" "You appear to staring off into the distance with a quizical look upon your face." "Yes, I suppose I am." "What are you thinking of?" "The end of this war, Brother. And how things will be in the far future, should we emerge triumphant against the Traitor Horus." "What thoughts reach you?" "I fear that, ten thousand years from now, my combi-melta might inexplicably be not as effective as it is today." "What an unusual thought." "We live in unusual times..."
I'm liking that. Weird it's not more 'Epic' stuff this week but whatever. Nice to see a new armour sculpt that's a bit more baroque and fits more with Legions like the Imperial Fists, Dark Angels etc. The beakie helmet kind of spoils that a bit mind, probably stick a mkIII or something on there if I were going to go with a helmed option.
"Brother Consul?"
"Yes, Brother Gaspain?"
"You appear to staring off into the distance with a quizical look upon your face."
"Yes, I suppose I am."
"What are you thinking of?"
"The end of this war, Brother. And how things will be in the far future, should we emerge triumphant against the Traitor Horus."
"What thoughts reach you?"
"I fear that, ten thousand years from now, my combi-melta might inexplicably be not as effective as it is today."
"What an unusual thought."
"We live in unusual times..."
You know, the moment i scrolled past the combi-melta in that article i thought 'Oh look, guess who's gonna use this as a opportunitiy to complain again', and look how not wrong i was...
Tsagualsa wrote: You know, the moment i scrolled past the combi-melta in that article i thought 'Oh look, guess who's gonna use this as a opportunitiy to complain again', and look how not wrong i was...
I decided to have fun with it. Shame you couldn't join in.
Nice model, just... an odd timing. I had expected we would get some more LI, but apparently "eh, next week" is good enough for GW.
Good to see some legion agnostic sculpt again. Also good to see it comes with an optional head/helmet - making it trivial to use any head you want to. Also also I can see this one being used in 40K armies, especially Black Templars.
Not Online!!! wrote: could we get literally any other legion at this point except SoH and IF?
SoH/IF are the promo schemes for this edition of HH, as are Ultramarines for 40K. There is literally nothing on this models sculpt specific to any one legion.
Not Online!!! wrote: could we get literally any other legion at this point except SoH and IF?
Do you not understand how marketing works?
Models are painted in the same schemes across a range to show customers what a prospective collection would look like in one colour scheme. Nobody is forcing you to paint this model as an Imperial Fist.
Darnok wrote: Good to see some legion agnostic sculpt again. Also good to see it comes with an optional head/helmet - making it trivial to use any head you want to. Also also I can see this one being used in 40K armies, especially Black Templars.
Um, it's not legion agnostic?
The ship steering wheel iron halo is specifically IF thing, as is wind rose badge on chest/holster, BT-like loin cloth and gorget, the discs on belt, and probably the dangly he has on chain, too. Yes, these might be minor enough to modify/repaint, but he absolutely doesn't look like UM, IH, IW, or NL champion, he could maybe make OK Dark Angel if you squint hard enough and that's about it...
Snord wrote: There are historical precedents for tank crew using flags. Before radios were common, they used small flags for signalling. And there are numerous photos of Soviet tankers in WW2 with flags. Maybe just for the camera, but it isn't as ridiculous as some seem to think.
The flags were mostly for propaganda purposes, yes, but also for the fact that with fast moving steppe armored warfare your own planes often had no idea where the friendly units were so you put flags on so that the pilots can identify their own tanks and not bomb them. These flags were most often draped on the tank, but ones flying from poles were used too (though mostly in decorative role). Also, usage of captured tanks was (somewhat) common, especially on nazi side as T-34 was plainly better than vast majority of their tanks (though Soviets fielded SU-76i in not inconsiderable numbers too), and the crews of these had double incentive to be identified quickly and not be fired upon by reflex.
Prometheum is talking about like back in 2nd Ed when every character had one and every Tac Squad had one or two(depending on if you gave one to the Squad Vet for Combat Squading).
ProfSrlojohn wrote: He's also got that tabbard, which basically no other legion wears besides fists and Dark angels.
Both the old Firstborn 40k Champion had one as does the more recent Primaris Champion.
It's some cloth on the front of the armour, it's hardly not a common sight among Space Marine models.
Also, Champions are the quintessential space knight. Loves a big sword, honour duels and killing powerful enemies. Makes sense they might look a bit more knightly.
But hey if it doesn't fit the exact Legion you have in mind there are so many other models you could use which IMO is one of the best things about HH. My Salamanders Champion is one of the old Masters of the Chapter with a Firedrake helm.
GW wrote:In the case of the Loyalist Champion, that means a massive two-handed sword nearly as tall as a Space Marine, expertly designed to lop heads off.
That's the opposite of what the picture shows, GW...
Not Online!!! wrote: could we get literally any other legion at this point except SoH and IF?
Do you not understand how marketing works?
Models are painted in the same schemes across a range to show customers what a prospective collection would look like in one colour scheme. Nobody is forcing you to paint this model as an Imperial Fist.
Good taste forces you to paint him as an Imperial Fist. As it did GW's painters. It's not an easy compulsion to overcome, but there is no end to the horde of misguided fools who try.
In the next week, as they said at the bottom of the article.
They'll probably do it mostly by alternating weeks for 'Heresy Thursday' at least until late Autumn.
I think it's sensible. Heresy Thursday is now shared with a different game that got its due exposure over the last week or two. Not a bad idea to reassure 28mm players quickly that they'll still get catered to as well.
In the next week, as they said at the bottom of the article.
They'll probably do it mostly by alternating weeks for 'Heresy Thursday' at least until late Autumn.
I think it's sensible. Heresy Thursday is now shared with a different game that got its due exposure over the last week or two. Not a bad idea to reassure 28mm players quickly that they'll still get catered to as well.
Yeah, it's probably best to not do even more marines/heresy all the time, we have enough of it already Also, with the Epic stuff, you can't do too much for any given preview, everybody knows how a Rhino looks and the unit profiles in these sort of game usually don't have flashy special rules and such that lend themselves to preview hype.
ProfSrlojohn wrote: He's also got that tabbard, which basically no other legion wears besides fists and Dark angels.
Both the old Firstborn 40k Champion had one as does the more recent Primaris Champion.
It's some cloth on the front of the armour, it's hardly not a common sight among Space Marine models.
Also, Champions are the quintessential space knight. Loves a big sword, honour duels and killing powerful enemies. Makes sense they might look a bit more knightly.
But hey if it doesn't fit the exact Legion you have in mind there are so many other models you could use which IMO is one of the best things about HH. My Salamanders Champion is one of the old Masters of the Chapter with a Firedrake helm.
That's 40k, which is a different aestetic to the heresy.
If you look at the actual legion specific and generic units only a few have them.
And I do agree, lots of options. Not many for mine, since unless you're going full late heresy not much of anything for WE, but hey, it's a niche.
Irbis wrote: The flags were mostly for propaganda purposes, yes, but also for the fact that with fast moving steppe armored warfare your own planes often had no idea where the friendly units were so you put flags on so that the pilots can identify their own tanks and not bomb them. These flags were most often draped on the tank, but ones flying from poles were used too (though mostly in decorative role). Also, usage of captured tanks was (somewhat) common, especially on nazi side as T-34 was plainly better than vast majority of their tanks (though Soviets fielded SU-76i in not inconsiderable numbers too), and the crews of these had double incentive to be identified quickly and not be fired upon by reflex.
Well at least someone read it…
The internet’s derision is usually directed at a model waving a flag from a vehicle hatch, rather than an aerial identification flag draped over the rear or attached to a radio antenna. My point was only that GW didn’t just make that up. And it can look cool. Models waving swords from vehicles is maybe pushing it, but in a world where your tank can get swarmed by Orks or Termagaunts, maybe having something long and pointy to hand isn’t a bad idea.
ProfSrlojohn wrote: That's 40k, which is a different aestetic to the heresy.
In terms of dress sense? Not really. People can kid themselves that heroes never wore fancy gear and everyone from a Tactical Marine to a Chapter Master looked the same but going back to the Visions books or the first proper HH models that notion isn't true. A tabard is just cloth on the armour, the only difference between older models with them and more modern ones is the modern sculpts are far better.
Darnok wrote: Good to see some legion agnostic sculpt again. Also good to see it comes with an optional head/helmet - making it trivial to use any head you want to. Also also I can see this one being used in 40K armies, especially Black Templars.
Um, it's not legion agnostic?
The ship steering wheel iron halo is specifically IF thing, as is wind rose badge on chest/holster, BT-like loin cloth and gorget, the discs on belt, and probably the dangly he has on chain, too. Yes, these might be minor enough to modify/repaint, but he absolutely doesn't look like UM, IH, IW, or NL champion, he could maybe make OK Dark Angel if you squint hard enough and that's about it...
SgtEeveell wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote: could we get literally any other legion at this point except SoH and IF?
What is specifically Imperial Fist about this model, besides the decal on the shoulderpad?
I always like how much head swap can do to influence a model.
Also I am ashamed to admit that I read the symbols on the photo shopped Ultramarine as "UwU".
Loving the amusing short stories for those models, heh. It also seems that a lot of the recent models for HH look a lot better with helmets on rather than off. :/
Boringstuff wrote: Loving the amusing short stories for those models, heh. It also seems that a lot of the recent models for HH look a lot better with helmets on rather than off. :/
I think that's just down to having cool fancy helmets while there hasn't been much innovation in the screaming faces department?
i heard from a friend that there is a rumor of a new starter box or bundle box once the new armor kit drops. he said that it would have the new armor kit (Mk.III iirc), the plastic landraider proteus, and one of the new dreadnought they're releasing.
is there actually anything hinting at this or is he just sharing someone's pie in the sky wishlist?
Pretty sure we have strong rumors that we're looking at a new box consisting of MKIII, Deredo, and LR Protean around.. October? I thought I saw that agreed on somewhere, but I might be wrong.
morganfreeman wrote: Pretty sure we have strong rumors that we're looking at a new box consisting of MKIII, Deredo, and LR Protean around.. October? I thought I saw that agreed on somewhere, but I might be wrong.
The evidence is a piece of artwork they've shown at a preview show that contains those units (also including a Mk3 support squad with volkites).
Since GW does not usually just make art in that style outside book covers or box covers and it's not the cover of Siege of Cthonia, it's a reasonable assumption it's a box cover.
lord_blackfang wrote: The evidence is a piece of artwork they've shown at a preview show that contains those units (also including a Mk3 support squad with volkites).
Since GW does not usually just make art in that style outside book covers or box covers and it's not the cover of Siege of Cthonia, it's a reasonable assumption it's a box cover.
so no hard data, but lots of reliable indications.
hopefully it'll be a bundle cheaper than the current age of darkness box. just 20 marines, the tank, and the dread. maybe a mini-rulebook. could be easily half the price of the AoD set, which has twice as many marines and the terminators, and a full rulebook. make it a bit easier for people to get into the game, and a quick boost for people who have bought the AoD set.
Of course this could be half the box and we haven't seen the force on the right that's facing off against them. But if that's the case I'd not expect any additional new models (the art already covers everything that's on the roadmap for this year) but a "tax" of repeats.
Of course this could be half the box and we haven't seen the force on the right that's facing off against them. But if that's the case I'd not expect any additional new models (the art already covers everything that's on the roadmap for this year) but a "tax" of repeats.
Maybee it is a smaller box like a start your legion?
30 Marines, Consul / command squad which got leaked via legiones or whatevs epic nowadays get's called, proteus and a sprue of special weapons and a deredo?
No matter how you slice it, that would make a good box
Maybee it is a smaller box like a start your legion?
30 Marines, Consul / command squad which got leaked via legiones or whatevs epic nowadays get's called, proteus and a sprue of special weapons and a deredo?
No matter how you slice it, that would make a good box
It would, a HH Combat Patrol if you will. But I doubt they will put a Mk6 command squad with Mk3 troops, and, as you say, we know that Command is mk6 from the Epic box.
Maybee it is a smaller box like a start your legion?
30 Marines, Consul / command squad which got leaked via legiones or whatevs epic nowadays get's called, proteus and a sprue of special weapons and a deredo?
No matter how you slice it, that would make a good box
It would, a HH Combat Patrol if you will. But I doubt they will put a Mk6 command squad with Mk3 troops, and, as you say, we know that Command is mk6 from the Epic box.
Considering the poses are literally identical to MK VI it'd be easy for GW to just design one and make the other at the same time. So i don't think it's as unlikely.
I have a lot of mixed feelings on the MK 3 since I've already built a lot of MK3 and even started painting a handful of them.
It is a nice nod to the Death Guard HH helmets. That head spike has been around forever.
I'm tempted to say the new Mk.III takes design cues from the old metal Mk.III Marine GW used to sell. It's not an exact copy, mind, but you can see the helmet and shoulder designs going back in that direction. And as you say, the helmet spike is a classic Death Guard feature, so it's not entirely surprising to see it here.
I don't think it's artistic license, just GW going retro and incorporating some classic elements in their new designs instead of simply embiggening the plastic Mk.III.
I really like the updated Mark III. Doesn't sort of gel with my EC's Mark VI theme but maybe as a battered sort of veteran siege unit like some Betrayal art I dimly remember from Eidolon's company.
leopard wrote: also the whole point of resin spin cast stuff is the tooling to make it is very cheap, heck for gravity cast you can do it at home.
releases like this take more manpower to make but allows some seriously specialised models
Making me wistful for the days when the whole point of Forgeworld was to randomly release cool, fluffy stuff that looked awesome and had little to no game impact.
exactly, this is nothing you couldn't proxy but looks good and is easy to come up with silly narratives for aka "drive me closer I want to hit them with my sword" level of stuff
I was rewatching The World At War over the weekend. The clip showing the Japanese fighter pilot climbing into the Zero cockpit with his sword had me thinking of that meme.
I have a lot of mixed feelings on the MK 3 since I've already built a lot of MK3 and even started painting a handful of them.
It is a nice nod to the Death Guard HH helmets. That head spike has been around forever.
Is it art? It looks like painted miniatures run through photoshop filters. Thats most likely the production sculpt (or at least a 3d printed prototype of it).
I have a lot of mixed feelings on the MK 3 since I've already built a lot of MK3 and even started painting a handful of them.
It is a nice nod to the Death Guard HH helmets. That head spike has been around forever.
Is it art? It looks like painted miniatures run through photoshop filters. Thats most likely the production sculpt (or at least a 3d printed prototype of it).
Is that what they did with the Age Of Darkness box cover? Took pics of the minis and ran them through a filter?
I have a lot of mixed feelings on the MK 3 since I've already built a lot of MK3 and even started painting a handful of them.
It is a nice nod to the Death Guard HH helmets. That head spike has been around forever.
Is it art? It looks like painted miniatures run through photoshop filters. Thats most likely the production sculpt (or at least a 3d printed prototype of it).
Is that what they did with the Age Of Darkness box cover? Took pics of the minis and ran them through a filter?
They did that as far back as the original Imperial Armour books.
You're gonna have to circle it. Not seeing a scope at all. I think I see the targeting system that links to the helmet but no scope on any of the guns in the picture.
Looks like a redesign of the same rear sight housing that has always been there to me. But even if it is a Red Dot, just shave the front sight post off.
Yeah, for no reason at all the Phobos pattern uses an internal toggle-lock design and that lump is just an extension of the dust cover to protect the knee joint when it’s at full retraction. The early production marks allow for that section to be moved independently, for field inspection and cleaning, though this feature was later removed as an unnecessary and expensive complication in manufacturing that was seldom actually useful. I thought everyone knew that?
and it is cleary not the same thing as on the old umbra pattern.
to me this looks like someone thought an reddot sight would look good and than put on the frontsight anyways.
It should be noted that on all three bolters in the pic that's clipped from that blocky extrusion is below the front portion of the sight making me think it's a mounting block rather than a sight itself. It is certainly a weird shape though.
In a world where bolters supposedly use caseless ammunition but still spit out spent cartridges, laser weapons have muzzles and tanks have flat, wraparound tracks and sponson weapons, it seems pedantic in the extreme to be focusing on whether this sight (or whatever it is) could realistically function...
Snord wrote: In a world where bolters supposedly use caseless ammunition but still spit out spent cartridges, laser weapons have muzzles and tanks have flat, wraparound tracks and sponson weapons, it seems pedantic in the extreme to be focusing on whether this sight (or whatever it is) could realistically function...
Mr_Rose wrote: I think they retconned the caseless thing though? Rule of cool and spitting spent shells is cool and all that.
It wasn't a thing to begin with. Spent bolter casings have been used for marksmen honors at least as far back as the 2nd ed Ultramarines codex. Normal bolter shells canonically have casings. Any instance of caseless ammunition is either rare special issue ammunition or the writer getting things wrong.
Mr_Rose wrote: I think they retconned the caseless thing though? Rule of cool and spitting spent shells is cool and all that.
It wasn't a thing to begin with. Spent bolter casings have been used for marksmen honors at least as far back as the 2nd ed Ultramarines codex. Normal bolter shells canonically have casings. Any instance of caseless ammunition is either rare special issue ammunition or the writer getting things wrong.
Thank you.
But he, don't let that other people stop smearing me a pedantic Grognard.
I will have you lot know that i am proud of that attribute!
Mr_Rose wrote: I think they retconned the caseless thing though? Rule of cool and spitting spent shells is cool and all that.
It wasn't a thing to begin with. Spent bolter casings have been used for marksmen honors at least as far back as the 2nd ed Ultramarines codex. Normal bolter shells canonically have casings. Any instance of caseless ammunition is either rare special issue ammunition or the writer getting things wrong.
I mean they retconned it after Rogue Trader. When that artwork of the blond Dark Angel shooting up some, was it orks, was published?
Mr_Rose wrote: I think they retconned the caseless thing though? Rule of cool and spitting spent shells is cool and all that.
It wasn't a thing to begin with. Spent bolter casings have been used for marksmen honors at least as far back as the 2nd ed Ultramarines codex. Normal bolter shells canonically have casings. Any instance of caseless ammunition is either rare special issue ammunition or the writer getting things wrong.
I mean they retconned it after Rogue Trader. When that artwork of the blond Dark Angel shooting up some, was it orks, was published?
I couldn't say, but personally I'd leave Rogue Trader out of any discussion on background and canonicity. If your reference is Rogue Trader, that is to say the time before 40k was consolidated into what it has been for the last three decades, your reference is a semi-amorphous mass of lumped together ideas that have not yet been shaped into the recognizable, unified and defined setting that it has been for the rest of its existence. It's kind of pointless to discuss details being retconned if you move past 2nd ed and into Rogue Trader only to find that the foundation those details are based on is entirely different, which is all too often the case. If your measure is Rogue Trader, then yeah, half the setting has been retconned. Who cares about one more detail at that point?
Mr_Rose wrote: I think they retconned the caseless thing though? Rule of cool and spitting spent shells is cool and all that.
It wasn't a thing to begin with. Spent bolter casings have been used for marksmen honors at least as far back as the 2nd ed Ultramarines codex. Normal bolter shells canonically have casings. Any instance of caseless ammunition is either rare special issue ammunition or the writer getting things wrong.
I mean they retconned it after Rogue Trader. When that artwork of the blond Dark Angel shooting up some, was it orks, was published?
I couldn't say, but personally I'd leave Rogue Trader out of any discussion on background and canonicity. If your reference is Rogue Trader, that is to say the time before 40k was consolidated into what it has been for the last three decades, your reference is a semi-amorphous mass of lumped together ideas that have not yet been shaped into the recognizable, unified and defined setting that it has been for the rest of its existence. It's kind of pointless to discuss details being retconned if you move past 2nd ed and into Rogue Trader only to find that the foundation those details are based on is entirely different, which is all too often the case. If your measure is Rogue Trader, then yeah, half the setting has been retconned. Who cares about one more detail at that point?
So when is the demarcation line? It still seems like an amorphous blob of thrown together ideas...
MajorWesJanson wrote: I'd say 3rd edition is where it really starts to solidify into the more coherent 40k, after 2nd edition introduced a lot of the ideas.
Okay, so I should have put the caseless ammo thing in the past tense. I remember this being a thing (and being discussed on Dakka), but it was clearly a considerable time ago.
MajorWesJanson wrote: I'd say 3rd edition is where it really starts to solidify into the more coherent 40k, after 2nd edition introduced a lot of the ideas.
I think that's a good way of looking at it.
its also when they took a lot of humour out sadly and tried to be more grown up, some of this for the good, some of it for the bad
and even 1st edition sort of had a 1.0 & 1.5 version when the marines went to T4 with a 3+ save and an actual structure over the earlier T3 4+ and unstructured like the rest of the factions
Hate to say it but new mark 3 dosent look as good style wise as current mark 3. Perportionally it's much better but. Current mark 3 is near perfect style wise.
Agreed, the current MKIII kit is very good (unlike the MKIV kit IMHO), the only thing that could be improved upon is the scale.
I'm concerned that a re-do of MKIII would mean that the legs and torso were one piece, and that the in-kit variety would be limited due to cost cutting (like with the newer MKVI kit).
Undead_Love-Machine wrote: Agreed, the current MKIII kit is very good (unlike the MKIV kit IMHO), the only thing that could be improved upon is the scale.
I'm concerned that a re-do of MKIII would mean that the legs and torso were one piece, and that the in-kit variety would be limited due to cost cutting (like with the newer MKVI kit).
I expect that's what's going to happen. Infantry seems to be out of luck in this edition of Horus Heresy.
GaroRobe wrote: EPIC has Rapier Batteries with mk 6 crews so I guess we can expect a plastic kit in the future
Rapiers are also shared by a lot of armies.
If they’re smart they’ll do a generic Rapier sprue with a separate “artillery crew” sprue for each army. These can then be reused on other plastic artillery.
Would crew really take up that much space to justify a sprue for each group or could they just make a crew sprue with two Astartes, two Auxilia, and maybe two generic militia types? Reduce number of boxes by selling a single Rapier box instead of a Rapier box for every group.
GaroRobe wrote: EPIC has Rapier Batteries with mk 6 crews so I guess we can expect a plastic kit in the future
I don't see why a plastic Epic kit would necessarily mean they're going to bring out a plastic 32mm version.
They brought out Plastic Thunderbolts, Xiphons, Warhounds, Thunderhawks in Epic scale... none of them translated to getting a 32mm version in plastic.
Yet
Well it's been 4 years since the Thunderbolt came out, almost 5 years since the Warhound, I'd say if one comes out in plastic for 30k/40k now they'd be unrelated events.
Problem is, Epic scale -> 32mm scale means basically completely redesigning the model. Back when they released the Epic Warlord they said it had to be rebuilt from the ground up going from 40k to Epic, going the opposite way there is even less that's usable.
Also making a model in Epic scale... it's just going to be one tiny part of a sprue, probably minutes worth of machining time, it doesn't have to be broken down into lots of small components... basically it's way easier to create a new model for Epic than it is for 30k.
No One Important wrote: Would crew really take up that much space to justify a sprue for each group or could they just make a crew sprue with two Astartes, two Auxilia, and maybe two generic militia types? Reduce number of boxes by selling a single Rapier box instead of a Rapier box for every group.
First it depends on how many rapiers you get in a box; three small sprues with three character sprues in a box (for example) is a pretty full box.
Second it’s very definitely against current practice at GW to put different factions on the same sprue outside of one-offs for launch/starter boxes.
Third, the “crew” sprue could also include accessories like ammo crates, targeters, vox units etc. so it could be larger than you think.
GaroRobe wrote: EPIC has Rapier Batteries with mk 6 crews so I guess we can expect a plastic kit in the future
I don't see why a plastic Epic kit would necessarily mean they're going to bring out a plastic 32mm version.
They brought out Plastic Thunderbolts, Xiphons, Warhounds, Thunderhawks in Epic scale... none of them translated to getting a 32mm version in plastic.
Yet
Well it's been 4 years since the Thunderbolt came out, almost 5 years since the Warhound, I'd say if one comes out in plastic for 30k/40k now they'd be unrelated events.
Problem is, Epic scale -> 32mm scale means basically completely redesigning the model. Back when they released the Epic Warlord they said it had to be rebuilt from the ground up going from 40k to Epic, going the opposite way there is even less that's usable.
Also making a model in Epic scale... it's just going to be one tiny part of a sprue, probably minutes worth of machining time, it doesn't have to be broken down into lots of small components... basically it's way easier to create a new model for Epic than it is for 30k.
I mean, the warhound and Thunderhawk are both immense, so those I can't imagine those getting plastics even if the cad files existed. Kinda similar for the planes, but nowhere near is much. They're just niche choices in armies that already have plastic kits. Rapiers are are relatively small, smaller than the Guard field batteries, so that feels much more likely. Especially since you can sell them to: Legions, Solar Aux, milita, 40k Marines, CSM, *and* Guard.
Boosykes wrote:Hate to say it but new mark 3 dosent look as good style wise as current mark 3. Perportionally it's much better but. Current mark 3 is near perfect style wise.
You've got a typo there. It should be "mark 6 is near perfect..."
GaroRobe wrote: EPIC has Rapier Batteries with mk 6 crews so I guess we can expect a plastic kit in the future
I don't see why a plastic Epic kit would necessarily mean they're going to bring out a plastic 32mm version.
They brought out Plastic Thunderbolts, Xiphons, Warhounds, Thunderhawks in Epic scale... none of them translated to getting a 32mm version in plastic.
The roadmap from Warhammer Fest has a mystery army for release late in the year (or early next year, I'd have to look it up). I believe at the time people thought Custodes were the most likely candidate, but seeing Solar Auxilia in new Epic popularized the idea that the mystery army is going to be that.
Given that Rapiers are small models and fit both Marines and Auxilia, I'm not surprised to see such speculation. It's not unreasonable if the new army needs its roster filled out to get something more than just it can use. That was the thought behind the Horus Heresy plastic kits after all. Legion agnostic stuff goes to plastic, legion specific stuff stays in resin. It's logical to assume that the principle extends beyond Marines.
Boosykes wrote:Hate to say it but new mark 3 dosent look as good style wise as current mark 3. Perportionally it's much better but. Current mark 3 is near perfect style wise.
You've got a typo there. It should be "mark 6 is near perfect..."
Hey, did anyone else notice that the new Tiny Rapiers don’t look much like the “current” big ones?
Like, if anything, they look like a Cyclops demolition unit being driven backwards with a gun mounted on it.
Similarly the Tarantula turrets look quite different to the 28mm version.
If there is a plastic 28mm version of these somewhere on the roadmap, I’m interested for the updated aesthetic alone…
Mr_Rose wrote: Hey, did anyone else notice that the new Tiny Rapiers don’t look much like the “current” big ones?
Like, if anything, they look like a Cyclops demolition unit being driven backwards with a gun mounted on it.
I hadn't noticed, but well spotted. They look a lot like the AdMech Kataphron Breacher chassis, which some people have converted into Rapiers. It's no more than a feeling, but I do think it's likely that these Epic models (including the heavy Sentinel, Malcador and perhaps the Heresy-era LR) are precursors to larger versions being released in plastic - and that they will be part of a Solar Auxilia range.
There exist good solutions for ammo feeds: just throw the resin piece away and buy a suitable rubber-over-wire replacement from a modelling aftermarket kit range of your choice. But of course that's a 'you' fix for a 'they' problem, and should frankly not be necessary at the prices FW demands
GaroRobe wrote: EPIC has Rapier Batteries with mk 6 crews so I guess we can expect a plastic kit in the future
I don't see why a plastic Epic kit would necessarily mean they're going to bring out a plastic 32mm version.
They brought out Plastic Thunderbolts, Xiphons, Warhounds, Thunderhawks in Epic scale... none of them translated to getting a 32mm version in plastic.
Yeah, but those weren't specifically for this game. And many of the models are clearly based on upcoming releases, from the assault squads, to the likely command set loadout. I could be wrong of course, but it's interesting they designed mk6 rapier crew
lord_blackfang wrote: The evidence is a piece of artwork they've shown at a preview show that contains those units (also including a Mk3 support squad with volkites).
Since GW does not usually just make art in that style outside book covers or box covers and it's not the cover of Siege of Cthonia, it's a reasonable assumption it's a box cover.
lord_blackfang wrote: The evidence is a piece of artwork they've shown at a preview show that contains those units (also including a Mk3 support squad with volkites).
Since GW does not usually just make art in that style outside book covers or box covers and it's not the cover of Siege of Cthonia, it's a reasonable assumption it's a box cover.
I'd get mutiples tbh
I'm thinking 2 to start myself. Depends on if there are 20 or 30 troops in the box, and the price.
GaroRobe wrote: Yeah, but those weren't specifically for this game. And many of the models are clearly based on upcoming releases, from the assault squads, to the likely command set loadout. I could be wrong of course, but it's interesting they designed mk6 rapier crew
Well it was either rapier for epic or no rapier. Rapier without crew wasn't going to be a thing and if there's crew mk6 is only one they would do at this point.
So unless they are going to skip rapier entirely on epic it was going to have mk6 crew always.
Probably not amazing but considering I've wanted an Acheron since it came out but didn't want to build that large a FW model I'm very happy that I'll be able to get a plastic one pretty soon.
I’d need to refresh myself on its rules, Spesh for 2nd Ed. But from memory?
If your opponent has Knights or Super Heavies, it’ll have a great time, as it’s fast a fairly survivable. But if they’ve gone for lots of wee stuff, it may struggle to have much of an impact.
Voss wrote: I generally hate clear and tinted plastic for 'energy shields' and the like, but that shield looks weird and empty as is.
Could use panels to be painted in gemstone paints or something similar so it doesn't look like the knight is carting around an unfinished frame.
This is my problem with the lancer. Shield is quite jarring compared to the rest of the model. I'd be inclined to remove it entirely and put a void shield generator (or something similar) on the hand ti represent the shield.
Voss wrote: I generally hate clear and tinted plastic for 'energy shields' and the like, but that shield looks weird and empty as is.
Could use panels to be painted in gemstone paints or something similar so it doesn't look like the knight is carting around an unfinished frame.
Cut overhead projector transparency to size and glue in, use water effects gel (with some color mixed in possibly) to create wavy pattern, highlight wave crests (just do the whole thing according to tutorials for making 1:700-ish scale waves) with white, that's probably a better "energy field" look than you'll ever get from some transparent HIPS part.
...ofc probably a bit dodgy, at the price this'll be sold at, but it'll look amazing.
Can't lie, some of those look pretty fantastic. Good for adding a little legion flair to some allied knights, like the scythes for death guard or loudspeakers for 3rd legion.
Can't lie, some of those look pretty fantastic. Good for adding a little legion flair to some allied knights, like the scythes for death guard or loudspeakers for 3rd legion.
They really are. My Death Guard allied Chaos Knight has his bell to tie into the various Nurgle bells.
That isn't as bad as I thought. Of course its only a single build while the Dominus Knight has two but it is bigger and also seems to be a great kit in terms of posability so I'll take it as a win
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Depending on the exact sprue layout, we may yet see Weapon Sprues sold separately once it’s chassis mates are out.
I'd assume it'll work like the Armigers & Dominus kits. Release them separately for now and let people double- or triple- dip on the £120 models to get all the options. Then in a few years when sales have dipped they'll all get reboxed into a single product which covers all Cerastus variants.
Not what we’ve seen with Heresy though. Or indeed AT.
I’d argue the advantage to doing so is that where I might only field a single such Knight in a list, I’m unlikely to buy more than one. But by offering me more load outs for a comparatively modest cost? That’s how you get more money out my wallet.
Plastic Heresy stuff hasn't been around long enough for any repackaging yet.
However AT kits are all the right age and are getting repacked right now, so we should know quite soon if titan weapons get consolidated. Considering GW have actively reduced excess SKUs for Imperial Guard, Orks, and others in recent years I'd be very surprised if titans don't get all of their options in one box too.
If it’s 120 with the other weapon options it’s a day 1 buy for me. If not I want to know if the ranges options are a dual kit before making decisions.
Also it would leave more room in the August budget for LI so I’m OK with either.
xttz wrote: Plastic Heresy stuff hasn't been around long enough for any repackaging yet.
However AT kits are all the right age and are getting repacked right now, so we should know quite soon if titan weapons get consolidated. Considering GW have actively reduced excess SKUs for Imperial Guard, Orks, and others in recent years I'd be very surprised if titans don't get all of their options in one box too.
I was more meaning stuff like the Leviathan Weapons, where as well as a choice of punchy or shooty base kit, you can procure the weapons as a separate sprue. As we can with AT weapons.
I think that would make sense. A Knight isn’t just a significant cash sink, but a significant points sink. Speaking for myself, but I suspect others will happily echo this opinion, I’d be more interested in buying a single one, and splashing a little extra cash for weapon options than I would be buy two or three big kits, which I’ll only use one of at any given time.
Even those with Knight armies? Yeah they’d almost certainly welcome a variety of arms to end up with a variety of models to use.
