Earlier tonight I was playing my DE versus my friends Tau. My Razorwing Jetfighter drew the attention of some of his marker lights and he was able to roll a 6 to hit the flyer with the marker light (snap-shooting because he didn't have Skyfire). He then proceeded to fire two seeker missles, claiming he only needed a 2+ to hit the flyer because seeker missiles are fired at BS 5 once a markerlight hits. This seemed a little fishy (no pun intended with the Fishy Tau) to me, not the rule of them needing 2+, but that they only needed that to hit flyers. To save time we just went with it and my flickerfield blocked both wounds anyway, but I forgot to check his codex before I left, so was unable to see whether we played it right or not. I appreciate any help on this matter.

You can only fire one Seeker for each a single markerlight.

What MasterSlowPoke has said is correct.
- 1 markerlight token per missile fired.
Also for your future reference
- 1 token for +1 BS
- 2 tokens for ignores cover (only for the targeted squad.)

But where did he launch the missiles from?

If it was from a skyray he could of made his tank BS 5 and then chose to fire his seeker missiles as a standard tank weapon.

This would mean 2 missiles at BS5 because the tank has skyfire

He had two hammerheads, and fired one from each. So I'll remember that he can only fire one per markerlight now, but is it true that the missle only needed a 2+ to hit a flyer? Basically, the markerlight hitting the flyer lets the missle Skyfire?

I'd say no.

The requirement to fire snapshots at flyers would still count and that means firing as if you BS is 1. No matter that the normal BS for the Seeker Missile shot is BS 5.

Unless there's something I don't know about the seeker that gets around that.

He would be forced to make snap shots, they are resolved at bs 1, regardless of the shooter if it doesn't have skyfire.

Guess that's one for the FAQ, because it specifically states that they are resolved at BS 5 no matter the BS of the shooter

I don't have the rule book on me, but under 'hard to hit' in conjunction with the FAQ if its not 'resolved' as a snap shot you can not target the Swooping/Zooming Flyer. The only direct way to override this (I believe) is Skyfire.

The missile is still fired as a snap shot, however if you get more than one markerlight hit you can used one to fire the missile and any extras to boost the BS 1 of the snapshot.

i thought this was resolved in the FAQ's that seeker missiles firing using a marker light will hit as usual (as uve already been penalised with a 6+ on the maker lights)

 kezwick wrote:
i thought this was resolved in the FAQ's that seeker missiles firing using a marker light will hit as usual (as uve already been penalised with a 6+ on the maker lights)

This would make sense, but I can't find anything in the Tau / 40k FAQ atm.

 Nem wrote:

 kezwick wrote:
i thought this was resolved in the FAQ's that seeker missiles firing using a marker light will hit as usual (as uve already been penalised with a 6+ on the maker lights)

This would make sense, but I can't find anything in the Tau / 40k FAQ atm.

yea if you think about it a markerlight is a laser targeter pretty much so once the target is tagged it should be able to let loose the missile and it follows the markerlight so if it hits id say you resolve it as BS5 but only one per markerlight, but thats bringing theory and sense into he pot if its not it makes seekermissiles not on skyrays usless at flyers as ud need a 6+ for the markerlight another 6 + for the seeker adn a X+ for damage you might as well fire it without the markerlight.

edit: after thorght and clarity

It's a 2+ to hit the flyer using a missile with a markerlight token to launch it.

They had this same discussion back in the last codex and it was FAQ-d to be 2+. Both rules for snap shots and launching the markerlight tokens ignore the BS for the firer and are "resolved at BS *." You can use whatever justification you want, but last time this issue came up GW FAQ-D it to be a 2+ to hit.

Don't have my copy of the Tau Codex with me, but is it a preset BS5? Or is it +1BS? I thought it was the latter. If so, wouldn't the traditional hierarchy for characteristic modifiers apply? (multiplication, then addition, then absolute overrides like Unwieldy)

In that case, if neither the model firing, nor the weapon, have Skyfire, wouldn't RAW negate the Markerlight bonus to BS (but a second Markerlight would still remove any cover save)?

Mythal wrote:
Don't have my copy of the Tau Codex with me, but is it a preset BS5? Or is it +1BS? I thought it was the latter. If so, wouldn't the traditional hierarchy for characteristic modifiers apply? (multiplication, then addition, then absolute overrides like Unwieldy)

In that case, if neither the model firing, nor the weapon, have Skyfire, wouldn't RAW negate the Markerlight bonus to BS (but a second Markerlight would still remove any cover save)?

i think your thinking of "pinpoint" where it gives +1 to the BS fiering a seeker is a different part of the "target aquired" special rule that also costs 1 markerlight token

OK so I had to trawl around to find reference to the old FAQ. Latest on this forum I could find....

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/390/487121.page


Still devided opinion, basically. I believe RAW as DeathReaper entered into the last post in the thread, however I am unsure on intent. In a game I wouldn't really mind. They could have made it obvios when writing a new codex, but no.

I would say that the seeker missile wound hit on a 2+ as marker lights have been redesigned to laugh at snapshots.

Imotek also had his ability FAQed, which auto hits, able to hit flyers.

It will need to be FAQed again for the new codex before long though.

 Nilok wrote:
I would say that the seeker missile wound hit on a 2+ as marker lights have been redesigned to laugh at snapshots.

Imotek also had his ability FAQed, which auto hits, able to hit flyers.

It will need to be FAQed again for the new codex before long though.

Imoteks Storm doesn't auto hit, it requires a roll of 6 to hit.
Also, 1 out of 4 markerlights abilities specifies in increases BS of Snap Shots and Overwatch (Pinpoint), which is explicite permission the missiles are missing.

Also, the wording for markerlight seeker missiles in the last edition is different to this one.
Hard to Hit

Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as snap shots (Unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule, as described on page 42.)

(BRB bolding)

Missiles

- Is resolved at Ballistic Skill 5.

Snap Shots

...If a model is forced to mak Snap Shots rathr than shoot normally, the its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1, for the purpose of those shots

 Nem wrote:

 Nilok wrote:
I would say that the seeker missile wound hit on a 2+ as marker lights have been redesigned to laugh at snapshots.

Imotek also had his ability FAQed, which auto hits, able to hit flyers.

It will need to be FAQed again for the new codex before long though.

Imoteks Storm doesn't auto hit, it requires a roll of 6 to hit

However, it doesn't hit using snapshot, which is the distinction. Originally you could not hit flyers without snapshots (see old Tau FAQ for Markerlights), however Imotekh's rule is that on the roll of a 6 he hits the flyer. While it appears functionally the same as snapshooting, it isn't the same thing.

The power requires a 6 to activate for each units, and states that the unit takes a hit, however there is no roll to hit that can be turned into a snapshot.

Again, it is functionally the same thing, but his power isn't a snapshot and it can hit flyers.

 Nilok wrote:

 Nem wrote:

 Nilok wrote:
I would say that the seeker missile wound hit on a 2+ as marker lights have been redesigned to laugh at snapshots.

Imotek also had his ability FAQed, which auto hits, able to hit flyers.

It will need to be FAQed again for the new codex before long though.

Imoteks Storm doesn't auto hit, it requires a roll of 6 to hit

However, it doesn't hit using snapshot, which is the distinction. Originally you could not hit flyers without snapshots (see old Tau FAQ for Markerlights), however Imotekh's rule is that on the roll of a 6 he hits the flyer. While it appears functionally the same as snapshooting, it isn't the same thing.

The power requires a 6 to activate for each units, and states that the unit takes a hit, however there is no roll to hit that can be turned into a snapshot.

Again, it is functionally the same thing, but his power isn't a snapshot and it can hit flyers.

I don't disagree with the logic, I am just saying until a FAQ, for this edition codex, I can not see a RAW arguement to counter the rules for S.Missiles, Snap shots and Hard to hit.


[edit] if there was a FAQ about markerlights on flyers please share, I linked a thread earlier with the FAQ question I believed you were refering to, but that FAQ has nothing to do with flyers

Two set values ocur simultaneously, both from Advanced rules but one from a codex and one from the main rulebook. According to page 7, the codex wins such conflicts.

I don't think that's an ironclad interpretation. The enforcement of Hard to Hit has been inconsistant to say the least, and the Seeker portion of Markerlight makes no mention of Snap Shots as Pinpoint does.

My gut instinct would be to allow the shots to fire at BS 5, but I could understand someone disagreeing.

I don't really believe there is conflict -

If we rewind a bit to what we know...

ML Seeker missiles are resolved at BS5.
Snap Shots are resolved at BS1.
Only hits resolved as Snap shots can hit Zooming flyers and Swooping FMCs.

Are ML Seeker missiles resolved as Snap shots?

Seeker missiles have no wording or permission to be resolved as a Snap shot, the BRB FAQ states BS1 of a Snap shot can not be modified, which means to create conflict with that it would have to state it is resolved at BS5 including when fired as a Snap shot.

Imoteks ability is a logical step from one to the other, while when reading as RAW 'requires a 6 to hit' and 'BS1' are not the same thing, the designers have used it interchangeable in this case - IMO likely because of the date of the codex, and errata is too much effort.

Yeah I believe it should be BS1 at the moment, if they want it to work against flyers then I think it would say grants skyfire, or fires at BS5 even against flyers. It's just not quite permissive enough at the moment, could go either way.

I'd either play it as BS1 or if the opponent really argues then roll for it.

Edit: In fact wasn't there a GW faq about set BS values and snap shots? (like Telion's one)

 shamikebab wrote:
Yeah I believe it should be BS1 at the moment, if they want it to work against flyers then I think it would say grants skyfire, or fires at BS5 even against flyers. It's just not quite permissive enough at the moment, could go either way.

I'd either play it as BS1 or if the opponent really argues then roll for it.

Edit: In fact wasn't there a GW faq about set BS values and snap shots? (like Telion's one)

There was an FAQ with the old Tau and their markerlights not being able to modify snapshots or fire seeker missiles in overwatch. However, that was later revoked in the new code and they can now modify snapshots.

No word if the Tau can fire seeker missiles into overwatch.

You can use a markerlight to make a seekermissile hit on a 2+
why would this change if its a flyer?
It specifically says.. seeker missiles hit at BS5 when using a markerlight token...

KonTheory wrote:
You can use a markerlight to make a seekermissile hit on a 2+
why would this change if its a flyer?
It specifically says.. seeker missiles hit at BS5 when using a markerlight token...

And you then resolve the hit as a Snap Shot, or BS1.

Well this is disheartening to see fellow Tau players put in information without bringing out their codex...

Here is the RAW data from the NEW codex (quit confusing people by referring the old codex!):

Seeker Missile (page 66)

- 72" range
- STR: 8
- AP: 3
- Heavy 1, One Time Use

Ok, here are the rules for use---

It is a weapon for a model to use. Just like a Hunter-killer Missile, you can fire it with the model's BS and it acts like any other 72" str 8 ap 3 weapon.

Here is the exception:

Under Markerlights (Page 68)

- "Seeker:.......................................................Markerlight cost: 1+ [one per shot]
"For each markerlight counter expended on this ability, the unit immediately fires a single Seeker Missile (if it has one [remember: they are expendable]) in addition to any other weapons it is permitted to fire. A Seeker Missile fired in this way:
- Does not need line of sight.
- Must be fired at the same target as the vehicle's other weapons [ one can argue that a suit can fire at separate targets, but that is another discussion thread].
- IS RESOLVED AT BALLISTIC SKILL 5.
- Has the Ignores Cover special rule [no jink allowed, so dont waste an Evade when shot with a "smart" seeker missile].
- Does not reduce the number of weapons a vehicle can fire at its full Ballistic Skill.
- Does count towards the limit of 2 missiles that a flyer can fire each turn."

That is the RAW. It says that all targets, when using a markerlight to fire, are resolved at BS 5. That includes flyers. Also remember that Codex Rules override BRB rules (page 6 BRB, basic vs. advanced rules)

If you want some more "evidence" for this case, look under the Skyray section (page 51)

*This is fluff and not rules, but can be used to help support a TAU player's game when in a situation like this.*

Third Paragraph:

"The seeker missiles that they carry are so fast that many enemy pilots are hit and downed before they can even take evasive maneuvers."

Essentally the seeker missile, when guided by a markerlight, is so fast and accurate, that it nearly always hits the aircraft and the pilot does not get a warning fast enough to Evade: thus the Ignores Cover rule to get past you trying to evade and getting a jink save.



I hope this helps with data/passages from the codex directly.

jazzpaintball wrote:
Stuff

Per the FAQ, only Snap Shots can hit Flyers (Skyfire gives an obvious exception). Per the FAQ Snap Shots cannot be modified with specific permission. Per the Tau codex, there is no specific permission overriding Snap Shots (for an example, see Pinpoint).

 Happyjew wrote:

jazzpaintball wrote:
Stuff

Per the FAQ, only Snap Shots can hit Flyers (Skyfire gives an obvious exception). Per the FAQ Snap Shots cannot be modified with specific permission. Per the Tau codex, there is no specific permission overriding Snap Shots (for an example, see Pinpoint).

Which FAQ?

The TAU FAQ does not have anything about seeker missiles. It actually is very small referring to (mostly) just rocket drones and using multiples of the same weapon system on suits.

If you are talking about the BRB FAQ, you are gonna have a couple problems:

FIrst is that it is a BRB FAQ. Just as I stated, the BRB (page 6) says that there are basic rules (BRB) and specific rules (codexes/special rules). It says that specific rules over-rule the basic ones.
Codex rules override BRB rules.

Rule overrides:
BRB < BRB FAQ < Codex < Codex FAQ

Secondly is that if you think the BRB FAQ over-rides the codex, then markerlights are broken. On page 68 of the TAU codex, under markerlights: Pinpoint.

Pinpoint says directly that you "...can increase the Ballistic Skill of Snap Shots and Overwatch,"

Essentially are you saying that due to the BRB FAQ, that entire rule is null-and-void and they wrote it for nothing due to the BRB FAQ overriding the codex?

That and he's taking the BRB FAQ out of context.

Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of Experience)? (p13)
A: No.

While Pinpoint modifies the BS of the firing model, the rules for firing a seeker missile with a ML have a set BS so this part of the FAQ does not apply.

How about another rule that overrides snap fire? Ok.

Q: Does a weapon that hits automatically, still hit automatically when making a Snap Shot? (p13)
A: Yes.

Obviously snap fire is not as ironclad as some would like everyone to believe. I agree that Codex>BRB as a specific rule exists that allows the seeker to be fired at BS5. Keep in mind here that the model is not firing the weapon as the seeker is fired in addition to any other weapons but instead the expenditure of the markerlight is actually the activating factor as the only BS used is the one provided for in the rules, not the model's profile.

 agnosto wrote:
That and he's taking the BRB FAQ out of context.

Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of Experience)? (p13)
A: No.

While Pinpoint modifies the BS of the firing model, the rules for firing a seeker missile with a ML have a set BS so this part of the FAQ does not apply.

Except for the fact the two mentioned special rules, both are set modifiers.

How about another rule that overrides snap fire? Ok.

Q: Does a weapon that hits automatically, still hit automatically when making a Snap Shot? (p13)
A: Yes.

Obviously snap fire is not as ironclad as some would like everyone to believe. I agree that Codex>BRB as a specific rule exists that allows the seeker to be fired at BS5. Keep in mind here that the model is not firing the weapon as the seeker is fired in addition to any other weapons but instead the expenditure of the markerlight is actually the activating factor as the only BS used is the one provided for in the rules, not the model's profile.

Yes, if a model is forced to Snap Shot and the attack used hits automatically it still hits. However, there is this all encompassing question:

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them.

which covers attacks that auto-hit.

Only snap shots can hit Zooming flyers. Snap Shots are by definition resolved at BS1.

Under the new codex Tau Markerlights can modify the BS for Snap Shots, but it's at a rate of +1 per markerlight.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Only snap shots can hit Zooming flyers. Snap Shots are by definition resolved at BS1.

Under the new codex Tau Markerlights can modify the BS for Snap Shots, but it's at a rate of +1 per markerlight.

There are other special rules that override the snap shot BS1 though:

Markerlights
skyfire!
seeker missiles

The codex overrides the BRB. If a model uses its BS to shoot something at snapfire, then it is resolved at BS1

If a codex says that the shot is resolved at BS 'X' and the BRB says a shot is resolved at BS 'Y', BS 'X' is used because the codex overrides the BRB.

This is due to both of them saying that they "resolved at BS". This is why a seeker missile "dumb" fired does not "resolve" at BS 5, but use the model's BS. Thus the shot would be RESOLVED at BS1 due to snapfire.

But since a "smart" seeker missile is RESOLVED at BS5, and the BRB says it is RESOLVED at BS1, the Codex's RESOLVED at BS5 overrides the BRB's RESOLVED at BS1.

It is about the wording. Well, that and BRB page 6 saying that the Codex will always override the BRB....

You mean page 7.

Codex does not overrule BRB unless there is a clear conflict and an explicit statement that it does. Specific overrules general, and Advanced overrules Basic.

 Happyjew wrote:

 agnosto wrote:
That and he's taking the BRB FAQ out of context.

Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of Experience)? (p13)
A: No.

While Pinpoint modifies the BS of the firing model, the rules for firing a seeker missile with a ML have a set BS so this part of the FAQ does not apply.

Except for the fact the two mentioned special rules, both are set modifiers.

I see we're at opposite ends of how this can be interpreted. You are viewing the markerlight as a modifier, and it is for the majority of its usages; however, the rule when using a markerlight with seeker missiles is very specific in that it is not giving a bonus to BS but telling you exactly the BS to use with the seeker missile.

Lets' take it apart so that we can at least walk away from the discussion with the agreement to disagree.

For each markerlight counter expended on this ability, the unit immediately fires a single seeker missile (if it has one) in addition to any other weapons it is permitted to fire. A seeker missile fired in this way:

Note that the rule states "unit" not "model".

- Does not need line of sight.
- Must be fired at the same target as the vehicle's
other weapons.

I lumped these together since they're not being discussed.

- Is resolved at Ballistic Skill 5.

The key here for me is "is resolved at" not "fired as if the model had a" or some other potential wording. To me this word usage makes the rule quite clear and definitive but as usual it's open to interpretation because, as we all know, GW rules are often full of holes. The point here being that there exceptions to snap-fire and why wouldn't a shiny new codex benefit from one?

- Has the Ignores Cover special rule.
- Does not reduce the number of weapons a vehicle can fire at its full Ballistic Skill.
- Does count towards the limit of 2 missiles that a flyer can fire each turn.

Fluff isn't necessarily an indicator of what a rule is but it does often provide us with the RAI side of things. Page 66 of the codex under "Seeker Missile" says,

Seeker missiles are one-shot weapons usually guided to their targets by markerlights, though they can be fired independently as well.

which clearly indicates two firing modes, direct fire by the equipped model and fire by the ML.

This'll never be a problem, either way, for me because I never play in tournaments and the people that I play against are more than willing to accept my interpretation, discuss it or just dice off when something like this comes up; we've all been playing 40k for decades and have become used to GW's lax rule writing.

In any event, that's about as clear as I can think to make my case and I understand where you are coming from so if we disagree, the world won't end, we can shake electronic hands and walk away with a smile.

Cheers.

 agnosto wrote:
This'll never be a problem, either way, for me because I never play in tournaments and the people that I play against are more than willing to accept my interpretation, discuss it or just dice off when something like this comes up; we've all been playing 40k for decades and have become used to GW's lax rule writing.

In any event, that's about as clear as I can think to make my case and I understand where you are coming from so if we disagree, the world won't end, we can shake electronic hands and walk away with a smile.

Cheers.

And if we were to ever play against one another, I'd allow it. Personally I think that a 1 in 36 chance to hit something is bogus, when for everybody else it is a 1 in 6 chance. But, on this forum I take a firm RAW stance (except when noted otherwise), even when RAW is silly.

 Lotus wrote:
It's a 2+ to hit the flyer using a missile with a markerlight token to launch it.

They had this same discussion back in the last codex and it was FAQ-d to be 2+. Both rules for snap shots and launching the markerlight tokens ignore the BS for the firer and are "resolved at BS *." You can use whatever justification you want, but last time this issue came up GW FAQ-D it to be a 2+ to hit.

I recall reading the opposite in the previous FAQ.

 davou wrote:

 Lotus wrote:
It's a 2+ to hit the flyer using a missile with a markerlight token to launch it.

They had this same discussion back in the last codex and it was FAQ-d to be 2+. Both rules for snap shots and launching the markerlight tokens ignore the BS for the firer and are "resolved at BS *." You can use whatever justification you want, but last time this issue came up GW FAQ-D it to be a 2+ to hit.

I recall reading the opposite in the previous FAQ.

The problem with trying to compare and old FAQ with a new codex, is that many time they reverse their original ruling. Both with markerlights and snapshots, and with crisis suits and multiple of the same weapon.

Once a new codex is released, the old FAQ is basically worthless.

Hmmm so what it looks like to me is:

Tau Codex says: Resolved at BS 5 in the Markerlight rules.

BRB says: Resolved at BS 1, snapshot rules.

It's not entirely clear to me which takes precedence, but I'd probably go with Codex trumps BRB.

Of course, it will never matter in my games anyway as I'll have failed the grounding test from the Markerlight by then anyway..

Baktru wrote:
Hmmm so what it looks like to me is:

Tau Codex says: Resolved at BS 5 in the Markerlight rules.

BRB says: Resolved at BS 1, snapshot rules unless otherwise speciied.

It's not entirely clear to me which takes precedence, but I'd probably go with Codex trumps BRB.

Of course, it will never matter in my games anyway as I'll have failed the grounding test from the Markerlight by then anyway..

Fixed that for you. If we were going off the set modifier from codex vs set modifier from BRB, codex wins, then a signum could overwrite Snap Shots.

Damn it Happy, you are making this much more confusing than it has to be.

It is word association:

There is "gets to use/ has / uses/ ect BS'X' " and there is "resolves at BS'x' "

If a model has BS 3 and the rules state that he resolves his shooting at BS 1, then he needs 6's to hit when shooting.

If a model has a Signum (page 100 of Codex Space Marine), "One model in his [model with the Signum] squad is Ballistic Skill 5 for the remainder of the Shooting Phase." This model is now BS5
---- If a model has BS 5 and the rules state that he resolves his shooting at BS 1, then he needs 6's to hit when shooting.

Now we get to Seeker Missiles.

If the seeker missile is fired using a markerlight to guide it, then the Ballistic skill is RESOLVED at BS 5! (Page 68 of Codex TAU Empire).

If two rules state the opposing information, the specific rule (IE Codex) is used instead of the Basic Rule (IE BRB). (BRB page 8).

Since the seeker missile RESOLVES at BS 5 and the BRB states that a snap fire RESOLVES at BS1, the CODEX rules overrides the BRB rules due to BOTH of them stating that the shot is RESOLVED at BS 'X'.

I understand you are trying to help HappyJew, but you are making things worse for people reading this due to the information being there, and you are throwing rules around that do not make a difference in this dilemma (like the Signum, for it is NOT a "resolves at BS 'X' rule).

The the OP, here is the information you need and the pages to prove it to another player. Please use them and make sure that an opponent does not do the wrong thing. Many people play with rules that are not right and they play with them so much that they think it is right and in the rule book. Make sure to show people why they are wrong so that they can in-turn do the same. I have played wrong many times before and have always been grateful when someone corrects me of doing the wrong thing: I hate cheating, and would hate others to not tell me that I am cheating when I do not realize that I am.

jazzpaintball, please answer me this:

If you resolve the seeker missile at BS5, did you resolve the shot as a snap shot against the flyer?

 Happyjew wrote:
jazzpaintball, please answer me this:

If you resolve the seeker missile at BS5, did you resolve the shot as a snap shot against the flyer?

Yes.

Here is the progression of the shot (using possible models, but not limited to them):

1) You shoot a squad of 6 pathfinders with markerlights at a Vendetta. They have a BS of 3. Due to the Vendetta flying, the shot is a "snap shot" and the unit shots are resolved at BS 1.

2) You get a 1,3,3,4,5,and 6 for your rolls. Due to the "resolve at BS 1" only 1 markerlight hits instead of three.

3) You put 1 Markerlight token on the Vendetta.

4) A Piranha has 2 seeker missiles and a Fusion gun. You want to shoot at the Vendetta, but the fusion is too far away. Instead, you use the Markerlight token on the Vendetta to "smart" fire your seeker missile at it.

5) You roll to see if the Seeker Missile hits. You roll a 4.
---- The BS of the Piranha is 3. You would hit, but you shot it against a flyer. The BS is Resolved at BS 1. The seeker Missile missed.....

BUT WAIT!

You used a markerlight token to give the seeker missile a different set of abilities: PAGE 68 OF THE TAU EMPIRE CODEX.

The Piranha is BS 3. You shoot the seeker missile at a flyer, it is resolved at BS 1. The new set of abilities on the seeker missile says it is "resolved at BS 5".

The Codex's "resolved at BS 5" overrides the BRB's "resolved at BS 1".

The seeker missile hits on a 2+ roll, meaning that the 4 you rolled hits the flyer.

6) Proceed to find out if the flyer wishes to Evade (they should not due to the seeker missile fired using a markerlight will not allow a cover save)

7) Proceed to find out what, if anything, the seeker missile does to the Vendetta.


You see, I resolved both the BS 1 of the snap fire as well as the BS 5 of the seeker missile while fired using a markerlight.
Since both the Codex and the BRB rules state to RESOLVE the shooting at different Ballistic Skills, the Codex's rule overrides the BRB rule (BRB page 8)

I keep putting page numbers up for a reason. Look at the rules! I resolve both shots, but the Codex's resolve overrides the BRB's resolve (BRB page 8).

--- I keep writing this stuff over and over and over again.....

Please explain how you resolved a Snap Shot at a BS other than 1 (as the only way to do that is with a psychic power).

 Happyjew wrote:
Please explain how you resolved a Snap Shot at a BS other than 1 (as the only way to do that is with a psychic power).

Or Markerlight tokens...

 Miri wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Please explain how you resolved a Snap Shot at a BS other than 1 (as the only way to do that is with a psychic power).

Or Markerlight tokens...

I forgot Markerlights could be used to increase BS. However, that has nothing to do with my question.

 Happyjew wrote:
Please explain how you resolved a Snap Shot at a BS other than 1 (as the only way to do that is with a psychic power).

Simple answer:

BS 4 becomes BS 1 when snap firing due to the BRB stating that Snap Shots are Resolved at BS 1.

Seeker missiles:

On page 68 of the Tau Codex, when using a markerlight token to fire a seeker missile, the shot is resolved at BS 5.



A broadside has a seeker missile that fires it at a flyer:

The suit uses a makerlight token that was on the flyer to fire said seeker missile.

BS 3 of the suit becomes a BS 1 due to snap fire (BRB rule).
BS 1 becomes a BS 5 due to the "smart fired" seeker missile rule.

Once again: Both the Codex and the BRB has a RESOLVES AT BS'X' rule.
On page 8 of the Big Rule Book, it states that specific rules override basic rules.

A Codex's rules are specific rules. The BRB's rules are Basic rules with definitions of Specific rules.

The SPECIFIC RULE of the Codex's "RESOLVES AT BS 5" ***OVERRIDES*** the BASIC RULE of the BRB's "RESOLVES AT BS 1."




--- I am really starting to think that you are no longer being helpful, but rather "trolling" this thread. I dont know you and respect how many posts you have within this forum, so I am not going to call you out on it, But I am definitely having suspicions now....

Per the BRB, Snap Shots are always resolved at BS1, correct?
Per the Tau codex, Seeker Missiles fired via Markerlight are resolved at BS5.
I think we can agree on this.

You're claiming that because there is a conflict, that the codex wins out, except the only time htere is a conflict is when forced to fire snap shots, in which case the more advanced rule (Snap Shots, as nothing can modify that BS) wins out.

However, as neither of us will budge (without a FAQ), and I've already stated HIWPI, all I can say is that this has come up multiple times and does not get resolved (pun intended).

 Happyjew wrote:


You're claiming that because there is a conflict, that the codex wins out, except the only time htere is a conflict is when forced to fire snap shots, in which case the more advanced rule (Snap Shots, as nothing can modify that BS) wins out.

Nothing can modify the BS of a snap shot? If this BRB rule is more specific than the Codex's rules, then how can the BS 1 be increased with markerlight tokens?

(Tau Codex, page 68: Pinpoint)

"Pinpoint can increase the Ballistic Skill of Snap Shots and Overwatch."

The codex says specifically that the BS of a Snap Shot can be increased. This is due to the Codex overriding the Snap Shot rule once in place.

BS 3 becomes BS 1 due to snap shot. Three Markerlight tokens can increase that BS 1 to a BS 4.

If you can understand this, why do you fight this:

Suit with seeker missile has BS 3 and it becomes BS 1 due to Snap Shot. One markerlight token can make the seeker missile shoot at BS 5.



Is that train of thought too far of a stretch? Or do you think that the Pinpoint rule is already 'Null and void' due to the BRB stating something else?

It all seems a lot of walking around in circles here.

If you land a markerlight hit on a flyer and use this to fire a Seeker Missile. You DON'T modify the the models BS that the Seeker has been fired from. The Markerlight is now controlling that seeker missile not the model it was equipped on.

Meaning that you are not "modifying" any BS. that is otherwise not allowed when firing at a flyer. But You are instead using a Special Rule in the Tau Codex. That allows a seeker missile to be guided to its target by use of a marker light. And these hits are resolved at BS5. The Markerlight has already Snap fired.

And because this is a special rule in the Tau Codex. It Over writes the BRB Skyfire rules, that say that all hits must be made at BS1, unless the skyfire rule is being used. As also stated on Page 6 of the BRB.

jazzpaintball wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:


You're claiming that because there is a conflict, that the codex wins out, except the only time htere is a conflict is when forced to fire snap shots, in which case the more advanced rule (Snap Shots, as nothing can modify that BS) wins out.

Nothing can modify the BS of a snap shot? If this BRB rule is more specific than the Codex's rules, then how can the BS 1 be increased with markerlight tokens?

(Tau Codex, page 68: Pinpoint)

"Pinpoint can increase the Ballistic Skill of Snap Shots and Overwatch."

When you have a rule that says no matter what "X", and then you have a rule that says even when dealing with the rule that says "no matter what "X"", "Y", then the more advanced rule wins. It is the same situation as SA and ATSKNF - SA says "No matter what the unit is gone." ATSKNF says "Nope." In that case, ATSKNF wins. Or, if we want to piss off the mods, we could argue about EL (codex specific rule) and SA (BRB rule), but some people have already had a dakka-free weekend from that discussion, and we don't need that argument here.

jazzpaintball wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:


You're claiming that because there is a conflict, that the codex wins out, except the only time htere is a conflict is when forced to fire snap shots, in which case the more advanced rule (Snap Shots, as nothing can modify that BS) wins out.

Nothing can modify the BS of a snap shot? If this BRB rule is more specific than the Codex's rules, then how can the BS 1 be increased with markerlight tokens?

(Tau Codex, page 68: Pinpoint)

"Pinpoint can increase the Ballistic Skill of Snap Shots and Overwatch."

The codex says specifically that the BS of a Snap Shot can be increased. This is due to the Codex overriding the Snap Shot rule once in place.

It can be increased with Pinpoint due to that specific exception.
Does the seeker missile rule include that exception?

rigeld2 wrote:

It can be increased with Pinpoint due to that specific exception.
Does the seeker missile rule include that exception?

The seeker missile rule states when firing a seeker missile with the guidance of a markerlight token:

(tau codex, Page 68)

"A seeker missile fired in this way:
- Does not need line of sight.
- Must be fired at the same target as the vehicle's other weapons.
- IS RESOLVED AT BALLISTIC SKILL 5."

The seeker rule specifies that a seeker missile fired in this way resolves at BS 5.
A snap shot specifies that it resolves at BS 1.

I am arguing that the Codex overrides the BRB. Therefor the "resolves at BS 5" overrides the "resolves at BS 1."

Is my line of thinking so far in left field that it is considered foul?

My Marines have BS4. Their shots are resolved at BS4.
And yet, when they snap shoot, they must instead resolve shooting at BS1.

Your seeker missile has BS5. The missile's shot is resolved at BS5. This is a bonus over the usual BS of the unit carrying the missile.
And yet, when it snap shoots, it must instead resolve shooting at BS1.

I fail to see any conflict between codex and BRB. The missile acts in the exact same manner as any other shooting.

jazzpaintball wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

It can be increased with Pinpoint due to that specific exception.
Does the seeker missile rule include that exception?

The seeker missile rule states when firing a seeker missile with the guidance of a markerlight token:

(tau codex, Page 68)

"A seeker missile fired in this way:
- Does not need line of sight.
- Must be fired at the same target as the vehicle's other weapons.
- IS RESOLVED AT BALLISTIC SKILL 5."

The seeker rule specifies that a seeker missile fired in this way resolves at BS 5.
A snap shot specifies that it resolves at BS 1.

I am arguing that the Codex overrides the BRB. Therefor the "resolves at BS 5" overrides the "resolves at BS 1."

Is my line of thinking so far in left field that it is considered foul?

So there's no specific exception for snapshots? Gee, it's like there's no conflict then.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
My Marines have BS4. Their shots are resolved at BS4.
And yet, when they snap shoot, they must instead resolve shooting at BS1.

Your seeker missile has BS5. The missile's shot is resolved at BS5. This is a bonus over the usual BS of the unit carrying the missile.
And yet, when it snap shoots, it must instead resolve shooting at BS1.

I fail to see any conflict between codex and BRB. The missile acts in the exact same manner as any other shooting.

Your marines dont have a special Markerlight rule though do they. Pointless argument there. As said the markerlight does not change the BS of the model the seeker is fired from it uses a special rule in the codex, that when you score a snapshot with a markerlight the marker light can be used to guide a Seeker at BS5. Codex over rights Rule book for special rules.

i think alot of people are forgetting here that you still need a 6 on the markerlight to even shoot the seeker and i think RAI is that they shoot at BS5 (seekers that is) otherwise its a bit lame having a seekermissile that isnt on a skyray 6+ then 6+ when whatever seems a bit harsh to me.

 kezwick wrote:
i think alot of people are forgetting here that you still need a 6 on the markerlight to even shoot the seeker and i think RAI is that they shoot at BS5 (seekers that is) otherwise its a bit lame having a seekermissile that isnt on a skyray 6+ then 6+ when whatever seems a bit harsh to me.

People are not forgetting it. People are arguing that RAW you need a 6 followed by a 6. I'm fairly certain most people (in a friendly game at least) would allow their opponent to use the BS5.

 cerbrus2 wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
My Marines have BS4. Their shots are resolved at BS4.
And yet, when they snap shoot, they must instead resolve shooting at BS1.

Your seeker missile has BS5. The missile's shot is resolved at BS5. This is a bonus over the usual BS of the unit carrying the missile.
And yet, when it snap shoots, it must instead resolve shooting at BS1.

I fail to see any conflict between codex and BRB. The missile acts in the exact same manner as any other shooting.

Your marines dont have a special Markerlight rule though do they. Pointless argument there. As said the markerlight does not change the BS of the model the seeker is fired from it uses a special rule in the codex, that when you score a snapshot with a markerlight the marker light can be used to guide a Seeker at BS5. Codex over rights Rule book for special rules.

Marines don't need a "special Markerlight rule" in order to choose a target and shoot.
Snap Shooting is a strange thing, and it has already been set outside the normal parameters of Multiple Modifiers. Markerlights add one to OW. Snap Shooting sets BS to 1, and normally a set modifier comes at the end of the order of operations, thus negating any +/- bonuses. However, the Markerlight allows you to +1 AFTER the set modifier; this is mentioned explicitly in the rule, since it breaks the normal rules of the game, the normal rule being, "Snap is BS1, regardless of any other additive, multiplicative, or set modifiers."
Seeker missiles do not have an explicit exception to break the rules of the game, unlike the other use of Markerlights which does have the permission.

Here's a related question: if the model firing the Seeker missile has gone to ground/is pinned/is shaken, are the Seeker missiles resolved as Snap Shots?
EDIT: I would say yes.

It seems like the one and only reason people cant get past this is the wording on snap shots ALWAYS resolving at bs 1.

fact of it is they are both set modifiers with snap saying 1 and seekers fired with a marker token at 5. so normally whoever turn it is gets to resolve the order.


Edit: Actually re reading the rules. and FAQ where are you guys getting that a snap must ALWAYS resolve at bs1? edit2: if concerning the FAQ stating if anything can modify the BS1 of snap shots than even marker lights are out which would conflict.

 cerbrus2 wrote:


Your marines dont have a special Markerlight rule though do they. Pointless argument there. As said the markerlight does not change the BS of the model the seeker is fired from it uses a special rule in the codex, that when you score a snapshot with a markerlight the marker light can be used to guide a Seeker at BS5. Codex over rights Rule book for special rules.

No they dont, but they do have a peice of wargear called a signum with the exact same wording.

 davou wrote:

 cerbrus2 wrote:


Your marines dont have a special Markerlight rule though do they. Pointless argument there. As said the markerlight does not change the BS of the model the seeker is fired from it uses a special rule in the codex, that when you score a snapshot with a markerlight the marker light can be used to guide a Seeker at BS5. Codex over rights Rule book for special rules.

No they dont, but they do have a peice of wargear called a signum with the exact same wording.

No it is not.

Signum allows one model in the squad to shoot at BS 5.

Pinpoint says it can increase the entire squads BS by one for each markerlight token used.

Seeker Missile fired using a Markerlight token says that the shot is resolved at BS 5.

--------They all say different things.



The signum just makes the model effectively BS 5 for the shooting phase, just like if the model's original stats is BS 5.

The seeker missile shot does not affect the model carrying the missile at all. Only the missile is affected and only the missile is given the BS 5. Not the other weapons on the model carrying the seeker missile, even though the model has to shoot its other weapons at the same target.

jazzpaintball wrote:

 davou wrote:

 cerbrus2 wrote:


Your marines dont have a special Markerlight rule though do they. Pointless argument there. As said the markerlight does not change the BS of the model the seeker is fired from it uses a special rule in the codex, that when you score a snapshot with a markerlight the marker light can be used to guide a Seeker at BS5. Codex over rights Rule book for special rules.

No they dont, but they do have a peice of wargear called a signum with the exact same wording.

No it is not.

Signum allows one model in the squad to shoot at BS 5.

Pinpoint says it can increase the entire squads BS by one for each markerlight token used.

Seeker Missile fired using a Markerlight token says that the shot is resolved at BS 5.

--------They all say different things.



The signum just makes the model effectively BS 5 for the shooting phase, just like if the model's original stats is BS 5.

The seeker missile shot does not affect the model carrying the missile at all. Only the missile is affected and only the missile is given the BS 5. Not the other weapons on the model carrying the seeker missile, even though the model has to shoot its other weapons at the same target.

The signum sets at BS5 jusy like the seeker use of antoke sets at 5, theres absolutely no indication in the pinpoint rule that its special exception to the snap firing rules applies also to seeker missiles. They are two distinct headings

 davou wrote:

The signum sets at BS5 jusy like the seeker use of antoke sets at 5, theres absolutely no indication in the pinpoint rule that its special exception to the snap firing rules applies also to seeker missiles. They are two distinct headings

There is a difference.

The Signum says: (Page 100 codex space marine)

"If he does so, one model in his squad is Ballistic Skill 5 for the remainder of the Shooting Phase."

This means that the model has a BS 5 in his profile for all intents and purposes. This means that everything that is changed from a profile is changed from the BS 5 profile.

The Seeker Missile says: (Page 68 codex tau empire)

" - Is resolved at Ballistic Skill 5."

This means that after all other positive and negative attributes have been taken into account, it still becomes a BS 5 shot.

This means that even if I used up markerlights to increase a Skyray to BS 7 and shot a seeker missile using a markerlight, then it would still go down to a BS 5.

Since there are two rules saying that the shots resolve at BS 5 and one at BS 1, we have to take the more advanced rule from the codex and use it per BRB page 8 - basic versus advanced rules.


I am starting to get confused though. What are people having trouble with understanding? Is it what rule take affect last or is it the wording of how Snap Shots BS is modified?

jazzpaintball wrote:
intensive purposes.

Intents and purposes. Sorry., bit of a pet peeve

 Happyjew wrote:

jazzpaintball wrote:
intensive purposes.

Intents and purposes. Sorry., bit of a pet peeve

It is alright, the wife is trying to cure me of that one as well. Thank you for catching it.

jazzpaintball wrote:
Is it what rule take affect last or is it the wording of how Snap Shots BS is modified?

It's that the Seeker Missile rule has nothing that overrides the Hard to Hit restriction of requiring a Snap Shot.
None. And since Snap Shots are BS1 by definition, if you're resolving it at BS5 it's not a Snap Shot.

rigeld2 wrote:

jazzpaintball wrote:
Is it what rule take affect last or is it the wording of how Snap Shots BS is modified?

It's that the Seeker Missile rule has nothing that overrides the Hard to Hit restriction of requiring a Snap Shot.
None. And since Snap Shots are BS1 by definition, if you're resolving it at BS5 it's not a Snap Shot.

I am seeing the markerlight usage for pinpoint and seeker missiles along the same line of ideology.

With pinpoint:

A model with BS 3 shooting at a flyer has to snap shot, making the model shoot at BS 1. Then you can use a markerlight token to raise the BS 1 to BS 2.

With seeker Missiles:

A model with BS 3 shooting at a flyer has to snap shot, making the model shoot at BS 1. It then shoots all of its weapons that it can at the flyer at BS 1. The seeker missile can use a markerlight token to raise just the shot of the seeker missile from BS 1 to BS 5.

All the shots from the model in both cases are forced to become BS 1. The single markerlight token on the target can be used to either increase all of the shots of said model to BS 2 or can just increase seeker missile to BS 5. Thus the model is still performing snap shots, but the expenditure of the markerlight token modifies the BS 1 due to snap shooting.

jazzpaintball wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

jazzpaintball wrote:
Is it what rule take affect last or is it the wording of how Snap Shots BS is modified?

It's that the Seeker Missile rule has nothing that overrides the Hard to Hit restriction of requiring a Snap Shot.
None. And since Snap Shots are BS1 by definition, if you're resolving it at BS5 it's not a Snap Shot.

I am seeing the markerlight usage for pinpoint and seeker missiles along the same line of ideology.

With pinpoint:

A model with BS 3 shooting at a flyer has to snap shot, making the model shoot at BS 1. Then you can use a markerlight token to raise the BS 1 to BS 2.

With seeker Missiles:

A model with BS 3 shooting at a flyer has to snap shot, making the model shoot at BS 1. It then shoots all of its weapons that it can at the flyer at BS 1. The seeker missile can use a markerlight token to raise just the shot of the seeker missile from BS 1 to BS 5.

All the shots from the model in both cases are forced to become BS 1. The single markerlight token on the target can be used to either increase all of the shots of said model to BS 2 or can just increase seeker missile to BS 5. Thus the model is still performing snap shots, but the expenditure of the markerlight token modifies the BS 1 due to snap shooting.

Does pinpoint have a specific allowance to change snap shots?
Does the seeker missile function?

The difference is that Pinpoint specifically calls out Snap Shots by name, where as Seeker Missile does not.

It's similar to another rule conflict (though I will use a different rule to prevent thread hijacking and pissing people off):
Sweeping Advance says that the unit is removed as a casualty and no special rules can save them.
Miraculous Intervention allows St Celestine to come back after being RFP. Since it does not specifically call out SA, it cannot save her. ATSKNF, on the other hand says that if the unit is caught in a SA they immediately go back to fighting.

(Although there is an FAQ for Celestine isn't there?)

MI says that it works when she is removed as a casualty. The FAQ clarified this to include RFP abilities (which is what initially sparked the whole RFPaaC=?=RFP argument specifically towards RP/EL). However, it still does not save her from SA.

WHich is why I used MI rather than say, EL, as that would turn a thread on markerights into a thread on EL. Which would upset people.

 Happyjew wrote:
The difference is that Pinpoint specifically calls out Snap Shots by name, where as Seeker Missile does not.

It's similar to another rule conflict (though I will use a different rule to prevent thread hijacking and pissing people off):
Sweeping Advance says that the unit is removed as a casualty and no special rules can save them.
Miraculous Intervention allows St Celestine to come back after being RFP. Since it does not specifically call out SA, it cannot save her. ATSKNF, on the other hand says that if the unit is caught in a SA they immediately go back to fighting.

I guess the best thing we need here is a definition: "Resolves"

I am using a Webster Dictionary.

1) "To reach a firm decision about ,resolve to get more sleep><resolve disputed points in a text>" (HA!)
2) a) "To declare or decide by a formal resolution and vote"
b) "to change by resolution or formal vote <the house resolved itself into a committee>"

There are others, but it deals with dissolving and resolution of pathological states.

I am looking at the first definition. "To make a firm decision about."

If the codex wanted the ballistic skill of the seeker missile shot, why would they include the word "resolve"? If a codex has a final say in conflicting rules and the codex says that a ballistic skill resolves at BS 'X', then wouldnt that resolvement be the last say after all other modifiers?

I dont like the idea over a BS 1 "smart fired" seeker missile and I never fought the old codex with it reading that you have a 1/36 chance of hitting a flyer.
I also do not play with seeker missiles now for I think they are over-priced. The only reason I am arguing this now is because of that one damn word: "resolved".

What do you guys see/interpret when you read that a shot is resolved at BS 'X'?

That you set the model's BS to that listed for the shot.

And for what it's worth I agree that a 1/36 chance to hit a Flyer is which is why, except in a tournament where it would be the TO's call (and if I was said TO I would rule opposite RAW), I play that they hit on a 2+.

 Happyjew wrote:
That you set the model's BS to that listed for the shot.

So if that is the case. Do you apply the codex's 'resolved at' modifier before or after BRB modifiers?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:


And for what it's worth I agree that a 1/36 chance to hit a Flyer is which is why, except in a tournament where it would be the TO's call (and if I was said TO I would rule opposite RAW), I play that they hit on a 2+.

I am a TO nearly every month. I debate in these kind of posts constantly due to making sure that my calls as a TO are as true as they can be.

I would call it a 2+, but if I can be shown why it should be a 6+ after a markerlight used, I will put it in my TO note-book to make sure that my tourneys are as true to the rules as they possibly can be.

jazzpaintball wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
That you set the model's BS to that listed for the shot.

So if that is the case. Do you apply the codex's 'resolved at' modifier before or after BRB modifiers?

Normally, when you have two set modifiers, the current turn player chooses. However, per the FAQ, you cannot modify the BS1 of Snap Shots (unless the modifier specifically allows it). So in this case it would not matter, either you apply Seeker first, in which case you are BS1, or you apply BS1 first and per the FAQ cannot be modified, and thus would still be BS1.

I disagree with Rigeld and Happy actually.

The FAQ:

A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them.

Snapshots: its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1.

Seeker: Resolves at BS 5.

So it shouldn't matter that the Snapshot sets the BS of the shooter to 1 as with the wording the shot resolves at BS 5.

So for me even RAW the Seeker hits on a 2+ in this case.

Unless I missed a FAQ somewhere?

Baktru wrote:
I disagree with Rigeld and Happy actually.

The FAQ:

A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them.

Snapshots: its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1.

Seeker: Resolves at BS 5.

So it shouldn't matter that the Snapshot sets the BS of the shooter to 1 as with the wording the shot resolves at BS 5.

So for me even RAW the Seeker hits on a 2+ in this case.

Unless I missed a FAQ somewhere?

Well there is the faq that says you cannot modify the bs1 for snap shots.

 Happyjew wrote:

Baktru wrote:
I disagree with Rigeld and Happy actually.

The FAQ:

A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them.

Snapshots: its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1.

Seeker: Resolves at BS 5.

So it shouldn't matter that the Snapshot sets the BS of the shooter to 1 as with the wording the shot resolves at BS 5.

So for me even RAW the Seeker hits on a 2+ in this case.

Unless I missed a FAQ somewhere?

Well there is the faq that says you cannot modify the bs1 for snap shots.

"Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.

On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex always takes precedence."


Hard to hit, conflicts with the seeker missile rule. Seeker missile rule is a codex rule, and takes precedence over the BRB. Its that simple. Meaning the Markerlight hits on a 6 then the seeker can hit on a 2+. The fact Hard to hit states "must allays be taken at BS1" is made obsolete. its really rather simple.

you have already made a snapshot to hit a flyer with a marker light anyway right?

Are people so worried about their flyers they want to make them to take another snapshot after making a snapshot?

If that's the case leave your flyer at home.

 cerbrus2 wrote:
Hard to hit, conflicts with the seeker missile rule. Seeker missile rule is a codex rule, and takes precedence over the BRB. Its that simple. Meaning the Markerlight hits on a 6 then the seeker can hit on a 2+. The fact Hard to hit states "must allays be taken at BS1" is made obsolete. its really rather simple.

No, it's not that simple.
There's no conflict here - at all. There's no exception in the Seeker missile rule that says "Hits Flyers on a 2+" or "Doesn't need a Snap Shot to hit Flyers".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DOOMONYOU wrote:
you have already made a snapshot to hit a flyer with a marker light anyway right?

Are people so worried about their flyers they want to make them to take another snapshot after making a snapshot?

If that's the case leave your flyer at home.

So a discussion about rules must involve someone wanting to keep their toys safe?
Hell, my Flyrants will probably be grounded from the markerlight hit so it's irrelevant

Cerbrus - find the conflict.

You do realise your argument would mean a signum would also resolve at BS5, yet we know - explicitly - that it doesnt?

Hard To Hit
Zooming Flyers are incredibly difficult targets for troops
without suitably calibrated weapons and scopes. Shots resolved
at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots
(unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule,as
described on page 42). Template, Blast and Large Blast weapons
cannot hit Flyers in Zoom mode.

Here's the explicit instruction to not hit flyers with anything that isn't a snapshot or benefiting from skyfire. The snapshot part of this is important, because of how the pinpoint rule is worded later.

Snap shot
If a model is forced to make Snap Shots
rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is
counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots.

Here we have the bit that makes flyers and FMC so hard to down. Shots fired as snap shots can ONLY be counted as coming from a model with bs1. Any other BS being used makes these not a snap shot, and cannot hit flyers or FMC unless the weapon has skyfire because of the hard to hit rule.

FAQ on snap shots
Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Space Marine
Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of Experience)? (p13)
A: No.

Pretty cut and dry, although a little confusing now that we have pinpoint.

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’troll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray orthe
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.

Another mention of only snap shots; seems the point needs to be driven home, even in the FAQ.

Now here it gets interesting, because the tau codex has a special allowance for increasing the BS of snap shots. The important part is that the wording maintains that its still a snap shot, only with increased BS.

Markerlight rules
• Pinpoint: ..................................... .. ... ... Markerlight cost: 1+
All models firing at the target as part of this shooting
attack gain a bonus to their Ballistic Skill for the
duration of the shooting attack. The size of this
bonus is equal to the number of markerlight counters
expended on this ability. Pinpoint can increase the
Ballistic Skill of Snap Shots and Overwatch.
• Scour: .... . ... . .. . .... ........................... . .. ... .. . Markerlight cost: 2
All weapons fired at the target as part of this Shooting
attack gain the Ignores Cover special rule.
• Seeker: .................................................. Markerlight cost: 1+
For each markerlight counter expended on this ability,
the unit immediately fires a single seeker missile (if
it has one) in addition to any other weapons it is
pet-mitted to fire. A seeker missile fired in this way:
-Does not need line of sight.
- Must be fired at the same target as the vehicle's
other weapons.
- Is resolved at Ballistic Skill 5.
- Has the Ignores Cover special rule.
- Does not reduce the number of weapons a vehicle can
fire at its full Ballistic Skill.
-Does count towards the limit of 2 missiles that a flyer
can fire each turn.

See above? There's a very interesting bit bolded in, it says that a seeker missile has a bs of 5 when fired this way, but BS makes absolutely no difference when snap shoting. Demon princes, grots, suit commanders and emplaced weapons all need sixes when firing snap shots.

Also note how the wording for poinpoint takes the time to specify that even though the bs is increased, the shots still count as snap shots; Also notice how any sort of effort of that kind if absent from the seeker rule.

So we have (in this order)

*Flyers and FMC can ONLY ever be hit by snap-shots, skyfire weapons and effects/weapons that automatically hit can never hit flyers/FMC.

*Any model making a snap shot, counts is BS as 1 for those shots, regardless of what its ballistic skill is normally/otherwise. Counting the BS as anything but one, means that the shot is not a snap shot, and can never hit a flyer (unless the model has skyfire somehow)

*Special rules that modify BS cannot alter the ballistic skill of a snap shot (this was universal before the tau codex, and now there exists one exception, which
EXPLICITLY lists snap firing and makes a point of specifying that despite modification, the shot is still in fact a snap shot)

*One more go at -only snap shots and skyfire can hit flyers-

*Pinpoint can increase the ballistic skill of snap shots (and they are outlined as still counting as snap shots after the mod)

*Seeker missiles are fired at a bs of 5 (no mention of this counting as a snap shot)

So either the shot gets bumped to BS 1 in order to qualify as being a snap shot, or else it must always be fired at BS5, in which case it does not count as a snap shot, and can therefore never hit flyers; Which do you prefer?

I don't get why this is such a big deal; in almost a full year, Tau seem to have gotten one of two unique instances of being able to play with the snap-shot rule; why would we go from 0 to 100 and have it twice within the same subheading on a page?

I am sorry Davou, but there is something I still can not unsee....

You said:
"*Seeker missiles are fired at a bs of 5 (no mention of this counting as a snap shot)"

The original rule says:
"- Is resolved at Ballistic Skill 5."

I am still seeing the RESOLVED as a huge factor. A rule is resolved at the end of all modifiers. Since the CODEX says that the shot is RESOLVED at BS 5, I have to be inclined that the BS 5 is the last factor applied to the shot after all other modifiers.

I would not fight it if the codex did not state "resolved at".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Cerbrus - find the conflict.

You do realise your argument would mean a signum would also resolve at BS5, yet we know - explicitly - that it doesnt?

This is true, but the signum modifies the stat line of a model. When that model snap-fires, it still gets put to BS 1.

The Tau Codex states that the seeker missile fired with a markerlight token is resolved at BS 5, meaning after the model is put to BS 1 for snap firing, the one seeker missile is resolved at BS 5 while all the other shots from the model are made at BS 1.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Does anyone know of another shooting attack that states it should be "resolved at BS'X' "?

Knowing that another "resolve at BS X" is still affected by snap shots BS 1 rule will end this argument instantly.

You seem to be confusing 'resolved' with a 'set value modifier'.

Set values happen at the end, resolved however is just a random choice of words... And even if it weren't, my point about shots that aren't snap shot can never hit a flyer/FMC remains valid. If it hits on a 2+, it isn't a snap shot (unless you've supercharged it with the only rule in the game that can-pinpoint)

Grots resolved their shots at BS2, unless they snap fire. A demon prince resolves his shots at BS9, unless he snap fires. A fire warrior resolves his shots at BS3, unless he snap fires.

If you can find some mention of 'resolving' being a special rule that has some measure of precedence, then by all means provide it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also there are other mentions of 'resolve' in 40k. Specifically in the assault sections, all of which were used with a loose definition of 'follow through to its conclusion' (resolved the combat, resolve the charge, etc).

GW writes the rules for warhammer, not a dictionary... I think going to Websters for some enterpretation that favors one side of this argument is reaching, especially if the other side can provide nearly ten quotes from the rulebook, FAQ, and codices that contradict

 davou wrote:
You seem to be confusing 'resolved' with a 'set value modifier'.


GW writes the rules for warhammer, not a dictionary... I think going to Websters for some enterpretation that favors one side of this argument is reaching, especially if the other side can provide nearly ten quotes from the rulebook, FAQ, and codices that contradict

You mean to tell me we should no longer use English while reading the rules? We should not use the words that the rule writers use?

Using a dictionary to find out what the definition of a word used in the rules should indicate everything. If they used the word "Resolve(d)", then we should heed that word.

Saying that we should omit words because GW is not a dictionary writer is insulting to the writers; telling them that they are too stupid to use words like that for that is obviously not what they meant to use.

I am not trying to "interpret' what 'resolved' means, and am showing you that you do not know what 'resolved' means.

The ten quotes you have are all forgetting this one damn word: Resolved.
The codex explicitly states that the shot is RESOLVED at BS 5. No matter what you do, the shot is BS 5 after all other considerations. Since the codex overrides the BRB, then the BS 5 prevails.

Unlike the FAQ, no other weapon mentioned is a "resolved at BS X" shot. Instead, it is all modifiers to the model's BS, which is still affected by snap shots.

 davou wrote:

 cerbrus2 wrote:


Your marines dont have a special Markerlight rule though do they. Pointless argument there. As said the markerlight does not change the BS of the model the seeker is fired from it uses a special rule in the codex, that when you score a snapshot with a markerlight the marker light can be used to guide a Seeker at BS5. Codex over rights Rule book for special rules.

No they dont, but they do have a peice of wargear called a signum with the exact same wording.

Actually the FAQ that said Signum do not over rule, used to include the markerlight, when the new codex drop the markerlight was removed from the list of Wargear that was supersceded by snapshot.

barnowl wrote:

 davou wrote:

 cerbrus2 wrote:


Your marines dont have a special Markerlight rule though do they. Pointless argument there. As said the markerlight does not change the BS of the model the seeker is fired from it uses a special rule in the codex, that when you score a snapshot with a markerlight the marker light can be used to guide a Seeker at BS5. Codex over rights Rule book for special rules.

No they dont, but they do have a peice of wargear called a signum with the exact same wording.

Actually the FAQ that said Signum do not over rule, used to include the markerlight, when the new codex drop the markerlight was removed from the list of Wargear that was supersceded by snapshot.

It was dropped because Markerlights can modify Snap Shots via Pinpoint (which specifically says it can modify).

Did they update the BRB FAQ and get rid of that specific FAQ?

---------nope, i got excited there for a minute...

jazzpaintball wrote:
Did they update the BRB FAQ and get rid of that specific FAQ?

The specific question is still there, they just dropped markerlights from it (due to Pinpoint).

jazzpaintball wrote:

 davou wrote:
You seem to be confusing 'resolved' with a 'set value modifier'.


GW writes the rules for warhammer, not a dictionary... I think going to Websters for some enterpretation that favors one side of this argument is reaching, especially if the other side can provide nearly ten quotes from the rulebook, FAQ, and codices that contradict

You mean to tell me we should no longer use English while reading the rules? We should not use the words that the rule writers use?

Using a dictionary to find out what the definition of a word used in the rules should indicate everything. If they used the word "Resolve(d)", then we should heed that word.

Saying that we should omit words because GW is not a dictionary writer is insulting to the writers; telling them that they are too stupid to use words like that for that is obviously not what they meant to use.

I am not trying to "interpret' what 'resolved' means, and am showing you that you do not know what 'resolved' means.

The ten quotes you have are all forgetting this one damn word: Resolved.
The codex explicitly states that the shot is RESOLVED at BS 5. No matter what you do, the shot is BS 5 after all other considerations. Since the codex overrides the BRB, then the BS 5 prevails.

Unlike the FAQ, no other weapon mentioned is a "resolved at BS X" shot. Instead, it is all modifiers to the model's BS, which is still affected by snap shots.

Yes, it does say resolved... But nowhere in any FAQ, rulebook or codex does it say the word resolve grants special permission to disregard rules that DO have definitions. Resolve!=set value.

I'm not trying to say ignore English, I'm trying to say you're fishing for technical answers in a pond of rhetoric and that's absurd.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Please show me where in the book it says that to 'resolve' something means to ignore the regular rules regarding the thing that is being resolved.

 davou wrote:

Please show me where in the book it says that to 'resolve' something means to ignore the regular rules regarding the thing that is being resolved.

The BRB probably does not have it since it expects people to read/know/understand English words....

jazzpaintball wrote:

 davou wrote:

Please show me where in the book it says that to 'resolve' something means to ignore the regular rules regarding the thing that is being resolved.

The BRB probably does not have it since it expects people to read/know/understand English words....

Now you're just being thick about it.... Here's a quote from the dictionary then


Resolve: to deal with (a question, a matter of uncertainty, etc.) conclusively; settle; solve: to resolve the question before the board

Show me where permission is granted for the question, matter of uncertainty, etc to be dealt with in a manner that contradicts the normal procedures. In the context of 40k; where is your permission to hit a flyer with anything but a snap shot? I know exactly where the permission to do that is denied, but can you show me where it's granted?

Hell, I can even point to pages of the core rulebook that use the word resolve, and not one of them make mention of doing anything BUT applying normals game procedures... See pages 6,9,15,20,21,22,25,27,32,40,42,52,64..... The list goes way on

 davou wrote:

jazzpaintball wrote:

 davou wrote:

Please show me where in the book it says that to 'resolve' something means to ignore the regular rules regarding the thing that is being resolved.

The BRB probably does not have it since it expects people to read/know/understand English words....

Now you're just being thick about it.... Here's a quote from the dictionary then


Resolve: to deal with (a question, a matter of uncertainty, etc.) conclusively; settle; solve: to resolve the question before the board

Show me where permission is granted for the question, matter of uncertainty, etc to be dealt with in a manner that contradicts the normal procedures. In the context of 40k; where is your permission to hit a flyer with anything but a snap shot? I know exactly where the permission to do that is denied, but can you show me where it's granted?

Hell, I can even point to pages of the core rulebook that use the word resolve, and not one of them make mention of doing anything BUT applying normals game procedures... See pages 6,9,15,20,21,22,25,27,32,40,42,52,64..... The list goes way on

I am sorry for seeming thick, but you are seeming the same way to me; it is called a debate for a reason, haha!

Thank you for the list. I do not have a PDF, so that is helpful.

What I am confused about, why do you see the snap-shot as the end-all modifier. We definately know now that it is not due to pinpoint.

Why cant a model fire using snap-fire like it has BS 1 in its profile, and then the seeker missile's "resolve at BS 5" be the last modifier. Even on page 15, resolved is used as a notion of "at the very end."

Page 20: resolve is "the very end" or "to finish" the overwatch.

I can find them all if you would like, but I have a feeling that all of them will pertain to the very end of an action or phase.

jazzpaintball wrote:
Why cant a model fire using snap-fire like it has BS 1 in its profile, and then the seeker missile's "resolve at BS 5" be the last modifier. Even on page 15, resolved is used as a notion of "at the very end."

Because then you are modifying the BS1 of Snap Shots which is explicitly forbidden, unless the rule specifically states it can modify Snap Shots.

 Happyjew wrote:

jazzpaintball wrote:
Why cant a model fire using snap-fire like it has BS 1 in its profile, and then the seeker missile's "resolve at BS 5" be the last modifier. Even on page 15, resolved is used as a notion of "at the very end."

Because then you are modifying the BS1 of Snap Shots which is explicitly forbidden, unless the rule specifically states it can modify Snap Shots.

And this knowledge is from the FAQ correct?

The examples given are things that change the stat line of a model. A Signum makes a model's stat line a BS 5. Pinpoint also changes the stat line of the model, but this is expressively permitted though the codex.

We are not doing that here though. The model shooting at the flyer still has a stat line of 1. Only the seeker missile's shot is resolved at BS 5, not the model. The model is still snap shooting BS 1 at the flyer due to the snap shots rule.

jazzpaintball wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

jazzpaintball wrote:
Why cant a model fire using snap-fire like it has BS 1 in its profile, and then the seeker missile's "resolve at BS 5" be the last modifier. Even on page 15, resolved is used as a notion of "at the very end."

Because then you are modifying the BS1 of Snap Shots which is explicitly forbidden, unless the rule specifically states it can modify Snap Shots.

And this knowledge is from the FAQ correct?

The examples given are things that change the stat line of a model. A Signum makes a model's stat line a BS 5. Pinpoint also changes the stat line of the model, but this is expressively permitted though the codex.

We are not doing that here though. The model shooting at the flyer still has a stat line of 1. Only the seeker missile's shot is resolved at BS 5, not the model. The model is still snap shooting BS 1 at the flyer due to the snap shots rule.

The examples are just that, examples. The question (in it's simplest form) is: Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack? No.

If the BS of the Seeker Missile is not a modifier, then (per the rules for modifiers) the set modifier from Snap Shots is applied last. If the BS of the Seeker Missile is a modifier, then it cannot modify Snap Shots.

So I'll leave the choice to you - is the Seeker Missile BS a modifier?

Edit: Also Telion's Voice of Experience does not change the stat line of the model - it just allows the model to use a different BS for the shot. Signums, do change the models BS for the phase.

Exactly; either it snaps shots and has to be BS1, or it does not and therefore cannot ever hit a flyer because it must always hit on a 2+

Either it needs sixes, or its explicitly denied from hitting fliers, we have rules that say that. What we don't have, is allowance for ignoring those rules in the seeker missile entry.

 Happyjew wrote:


If the BS of the Seeker Missile is not a modifier, then (per the rules for modifiers) the set modifier from Snap Shots is applied last. If the BS of the Seeker Missile is a modifier, then it cannot modify Snap Shots.

So I'll leave the choice to you - is the Seeker Missile BS a modifier?

Well hot damn. I am going to tip my hat to you and Davou!

With that, I can not say much else. You are right, the modifier rules states that things are changed as base numbers (in this case BS 5). If the snap shot can not be modified, then the 'resolved' can not take affect and if if is first then snap fire is negated...

Sorry it took so long to sink in, I keep reading 'resolved,' but the way the rules are written, they should never have put that word there. Once again the rule makers used needless words to convey nothing due to the word becoming 'null-and-void.'

People using seekers at the next tourney are gonna hate me....

Thanks for the debate guys, it was fun.

Good form.

It would be kinda abusive anyhow to play it else wise; since there are a number of sources of skyfire markerlights in the codex... It would meanball tau vehicles could take str8 bs5 potshots at fliers for very cheap.

So by this logic, a Seeker fired from a Skyray using a Markerlight would have it resolved at BS1. That is completely bogus.

thejughead wrote:
So by this logic, a Seeker fired from a Skyray using a Markerlight would have it resolved at BS1. That is completely bogus.

Why are you ignoring Skyfire, which a Skyray (and thus all its weapons) has?

 davou wrote:
Good form.

It would be kinda abusive anyhow to play it else wise; since there are a number of sources of skyfire markerlights in the codex... It would meanball tau vehicles could take str8 bs5 potshots at fliers for very cheap.

I think only skyrays have a skyfire markerlight. Suits dont/cant have markerlights, only their drones, and Velocity Trackers on a suit does no affect their drones.

For the most part, unless you have a skyray, it will nearly always be a 1/36 chance of getting a seeker missile to hit a flyer.

I have always thought seekers are pointless, and now even more so with that knowledge for I think skyrays cost WAY too much for something that looses its shots so quickly. If skyrays regenerated seekers, that would be a different story though....

The flyers have it, and pathfinders can get it in the scouring. So can tetras. And a few FW models carry markerlights and have skyfire

 davou wrote:
Exactly; either it snaps shots and has to be BS1, or it does not and therefore cannot ever hit a flyer because it must always hit on a 2+

That's a false dilemma, because you're missing the third option: it snap shots at BS 5 and can shoot at flyers.

Also, your assumption that "always hits on a 2+" means "can't hit flyers" is wrong. The only weapons that are specifically banned from hitting flyers are the ones that use templates (whether plastic ones or imaginary 'draw a line' ones). And the only weapons that are specifically banned from making snap shots are the same template weapons, ordnance weapons, anything that has a special "no snap shots" rule, and anything that doesn't use a BS. Seeker missiles do not use a template, do not have a special "no snap shots" rule, and are resolved using BS. There is no conflict at all in having a BS 5 seeker missile shooting at a flyer without skyfire.

 davou wrote:
Either it needs sixes, or its explicitly denied from hitting fliers, we have rules that say that.

We have no such rules. In fact we have rules that explicitly cause snap shots to be fired at BS greater than 1 (including against flyers), so you can't assume that "snap shots are always BS 1" always takes priority over any other rule.

What we don't have, is allowance for ignoring those rules in the seeker missile entry.

Sure we do. The seeker missile rules say "is resolved at BS 5", not "is resolved at BS 5, except when it isn't". Specific overrides general, non-skyfire seeker missiles are fired as snap shots and resolved at BS 5.

Elric,

I'm not ignoring the Skyfire rule that the skyray has, but using the markerlight means the Skyray did not fire it, hence if you take this logic way too far as I believe some have, you cannot resolve a Seeker from a Skyray using BS5.

You can try and wordsmith around it, but the codex clearly says resolve at BS5.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

thejughead wrote:
So by this logic, a Seeker fired from a Skyray using a Markerlight would have it resolved at BS1. That is completely bogus.

Why are you ignoring Skyfire, which a Skyray (and thus all its weapons) has?

 davou wrote:
The flyers have it, and pathfinders can get it in the scouring. So can tetras. And a few FW models carry markerlights and have skyfire

How are Tau Pathfinders and Firewarriors getting Skyfire short of a one turn Warlord trait or sitting on a Skyfire bonuses Mysterious Objective?

 Miri wrote:

 davou wrote:
The flyers have it, and pathfinders can get it in the scouring. So can tetras. And a few FW models carry markerlights and have skyfire

How are Tau Pathfinders and Firewarriors getting Skyfire short of a one turn Warlord trait or sitting on a Skyfire bonuses Mysterious Objective?

By getting a warloard trait and being on a mysterious objective.

You got it. They have the ability, but unless it is a standard ability, I would never count a model(s) as having it.

thejughead wrote:
Elric,

I'm not ignoring the Skyfire rule that the skyray has, but using the markerlight means the Skyray did not fire it, hence if you take this logic way too far as I believe some have, you cannot resolve a Seeker from a Skyray using BS5.

You can try and wordsmith around it, but the codex clearly says resolve at BS5.

The Skyray has networked markerlights, which means it can use them and fire the missile as well.

That's a false dilemma, because you're missing the third option: it snap shots at BS 5 and can shoot at flyers.

No I'm not, because thats not an option. There's only one way to increase the ballistic skill of a snap shot, and its directly above the entry for Seeker missiles, not in it.

Also, your assumption that "always hits on a 2+" means "can't hit flyers" is wrong. The only weapons that are specifically banned from hitting flyers are the ones that use templates (whether plastic ones or imaginary 'draw a line' ones). And the only weapons that are specifically banned from making snap shots are the same template weapons, ordnance weapons, anything that has a special "no snap shots" rule, and anything that doesn't use a BS. Seeker missiles do not use a template, do not have a special "no snap shots" rule, and are resolved using BS. There is no conflict at all in having a BS 5 seeker missile shooting at a flyer without skyfire.

No It's not, this isnt an assumption, those are the rules of the game. I quoted them a page back, but I'll put them here regardless;

Snap shot
If a model is forced to make Snap Shots
rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is
counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots.
FAQ on snap shots
Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Space Marine
Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of Experience)? (p13)
A: No.

and finally

A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures

We have no such rules. In fact we have rules that explicitly cause snap shots to be fired at BS greater than 1 (including against flyers), so you can't assume that "snap shots are always BS 1" always takes priority over any other rule.

Yes we do have such rules, I quoted them going on three times now. I don't have to assume it always takes priority, I just noticed that the rules say 'snap shots are always fired at bs one' have two single exceptions. one being a psychic power that mentions its effect on snap shots specifically, and a rule in the tau codex that mentions its effect on snap shots specifically. Does the seeker entry have a specific mention of its effect on snap shots? Is there some indication that the rules for shooting should be ignored? There's no need to assume any kind of priority between a series of rules that do exist, and some very convoluted reading of a rule that kinda implies you can game something if you squint hard enough and do a ton of coke.

Sure we do. The seeker missile rules say "is resolved at BS 5", not "is resolved at BS 5, except when it isn't". Specific overrides general, non-skyfire seeker missiles are fired as snap shots and resolved at BS 5..

Resolve means to see something through to its completion; if you neglect to apply the rules this game includes for snap shooting, then you have not completed that 'resolve'. The book says resolve the shooting attack, not resolve the shooting attack and also ignore the rules if you happen to be snap firing; there is no specific vs general debate here.
I can resolve a shooting attack from a demon prince at a flyer. I'd be resolving that attack at bs9, but it wont count for beans, because he would have to snap fire, unless of course he had skyfire.

thejughead wrote:
Elric,

I'm not ignoring the Skyfire rule that the skyray has, but using the markerlight means the Skyray did not fire it, hence if you take this logic way too far as I believe some have, you cannot resolve a Seeker from a Skyray using BS5.

You can try and wordsmith around it, but the codex clearly says resolve at BS5.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

thejughead wrote:
So by this logic, a Seeker fired from a Skyray using a Markerlight would have it resolved at BS1. That is completely bogus.

Why are you ignoring Skyfire, which a Skyray (and thus all its weapons) has?

Nowhere in the entry for seeker missiles, marker lights, or the skyray does it imply that the shot does not count as having been fired by the vehicle that carries the seeker missile. In fact, there's indication that it does count as comming from the carrier, in that they go out of their way to specify that it does not count against its limit.

And heads up, the skyray is bs4, so if you consumed a markerlight token, it would be BS5, and has skyfire, so it could do it just fine, only it manages the trick via Pinpoint rather than the seeker missile special rule of markerlights.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For what its worth also, here is the previous ruling VIA FAQ.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2940051a_Tau_Empire_v1.2_JANUARY13.pdf

Q: If Seeker Missiles are fired at a Zooming Flyer or Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, what To Hit roll do they require? (p31)
A: 6+

So even then, it was need a six for the light, and need a six for the missile.

If you are "implying" then that is not RAW.

Yes I know that I can pick up the markerlight for the skyray.

The simple fact is the seekers rule bypasses the snap firing rule altogether. Codex trumps BRB

If a seeker is fired from a pinned broadside unit it is still resolved at BS5.

thejughead wrote:
If you are "implying" then that is not RAW.

Yes I know that I can pick up the markerlight for the skyray.

The simple fact is the seekers rule bypasses the snap firing rule altogether. Codex trumps BRB

If a seeker is fired from a pinned broadside unit it is still resolved at BS5.

What? Dude, I said that the rule does not imply the shot does not come from the carrying model, I didnt say I implied anything. The rules I quoted are hard cold fact.

And no, the shot counts as comming from the model that carries it, its ballistic skill (and in this case, the BS that the shot is 'resolved' at) make no matter, because it must snap-fire ALL of its shots if it is pinned/shaken/shooting at a flyer.

"its ballistic skill (and in this case, the BS that the shot is 'resolved' at) make no matter, because it must snap-fire ALL of its shots if it is pinned/shaken/shooting at a flyer. "

The models BS is not used to resolve the Seeker missile. This is fact and a rule in the Tau Codex.

 davou wrote:
Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Space Marine
Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of Experience)? (p13)
A: No.

The problem is that this FAQ (from before the Tau codex IIRC) directly contradicts the fact that the BS 1 of a snap shot explicitly CAN be modified, by markerlights. So the FAQ no longer gives an absolute rule.

For what its worth also, here is the previous ruling VIA FAQ.

If anything, the removal of this FAQ suggests that seeker missiles don't work that way anymore and now hit on a 2+.

thejughead wrote:
"its ballistic skill (and in this case, the BS that the shot is 'resolved' at) make no matter, because it must snap-fire ALL of its shots if it is pinned/shaken/shooting at a flyer. "

The models BS is not used to resolve the Seeker missile. This is fact and a rule in the Tau Codex.

A stunned model does not care whether its using its, the seekers, or jesus's BS, because all shots coming from it must be fired as snap shots. But honestly, I'm done with this thread. I'd love for seeker missiles to have all the magic rules that some people here want for them, but that's not how it's worded, or how the game should be played unless we want massive lopsided brokenness.

Its all circles in here now, can we please get a lock?

 davou wrote:

thejughead wrote:
"its ballistic skill (and in this case, the BS that the shot is 'resolved' at) make no matter, because it must snap-fire ALL of its shots if it is pinned/shaken/shooting at a flyer. "

The models BS is not used to resolve the Seeker missile. This is fact and a rule in the Tau Codex.

A stunned model does not care whether its using its, the seekers, or jesus's BS, because all shots coming from it must be fired as snap shots. But honestly, I'm done with this thread. I'd love for seeker missiles to have all the magic rules that some people here want for them, but that's not how it's worded, or how the game should be played unless we want massive lopsided brokenness.

Its all circles in here now, can we please get a lock?

You are arguing your point well, but please dont say that seeker missiles hitting on a 2+ with a quantitative factor makes a "massive lopsided brokenness."

 Peregrine wrote:

 davou wrote:
Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Space Marine
Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of Experience)? (p13)
A: No.

The problem is that this FAQ (from before the Tau codex IIRC) directly contradicts the fact that the BS 1 of a snap shot explicitly CAN be modified, by markerlights. So the FAQ no longer gives an absolute rule.

For what its worth also, here is the previous ruling VIA FAQ.

If anything, the removal of this FAQ suggests that seeker missiles don't work that way anymore and now hit on a 2+.

Peregrine - except Pinpoint *explicitly* states it can raise the BS of the shot; the Markerlight seeker launch rule does NOT say so.

Speciifc overrides general. The general rule states you canot alter snapshot - Pinpoint directly conflicts, so wins. Now, find the EXPLICIT conflict in the Seeker launch rules - that specifies it works on snap shots - or concede that there is no codex conflict

The wording of the rules surrounding flyers and zooming fmc are just absolutely stupid. Then GW goes and compounds the problem by creating just as stupid FAQ entries. However as the RAW is stated, Seeker Missiles with Markerlights are still boned by those flyer/swooping fmc rules and you need the double 6.

The only plus side is the whole argument is that Markerlights can force grounding tests on a swooping fmc and if failed, subsequent shots from other units do not have to deal with Hard to Hit.

Didn't know that r3tarded was censored on here. And know I know and knowing is half the battle!

If Its not resolved as a Snap shot it can not be fired at a FMC (Per Hard to Hit)
''Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as snap shots''.

This is important becuase even in cases where a rule overrides the BS1 of a snap shot, since it is then not resolved as a Snap shot it is not able to hit flyers

Q: Does a weapon that hits automatically, still hit automatically
when making a Snap Shot? (p13)
A: Yes.

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. (SIC)

Even having the ability to change a Snap shots does not give you the ability to use anything which is not eventually resolved at BS1 against a Zooming flyer or SFMC

Hard to hit is a seperate rule altogether

How is this different from the Devastator signum?
that doesn't allow you to hit flyers with full BS, and it basically is the same thing.
Why would it work on flyers without explicitly saying it does?

Well I doubt we will get a reply, But I actually emailed GW's so called GamerFAQ email address. to see if they will add it onto the FAQ to give a Yes or No answer.

And based on precedent, they would vote 6 to hit. Which makes Seeker Missile via Markerlight the worst anti-flyer weapon in the game.

 davou wrote:

thejughead wrote:
"its ballistic skill (and in this case, the BS that the shot is 'resolved' at) make no matter, because it must snap-fire ALL of its shots if it is pinned/shaken/shooting at a flyer. "

The models BS is not used to resolve the Seeker missile. This is fact and a rule in the Tau Codex.

A stunned model does not care whether its using its, the seekers, or jesus's BS, because all shots coming from it must be fired as snap shots. But honestly, I'm done with this thread. I'd love for seeker missiles to have all the magic rules that some people here want for them, but that's not how it's worded, or how the game should be played unless we want massive lopsided brokenness.

Its all circles in here now, can we please get a lock?

I'm sorry we have a disagreement, but that is what this thread is for. I will grant you that your POV has merit, but dismissing mine and saying we are advocates for cheese is wrong.

A stunned model has a BS of 1, but the Seeker "is resolved at BS5". It clearly says that statement in the book without any exceptions stated.

thejughead wrote:
A stunned model has a BS of 1, but the Seeker "is resolved at BS5". It clearly says that statement in the book without any exceptions stated.

And it being resolved at BS5 is irrelevant if you're force to use BS1 for something, like, I don't know... Snap Shots which state that they cannot be modified.

Why are you modifying a Snap Shot BS without permission to?

 cerbrus2 wrote:
Well I doubt we will get a reply, But I actually emailed GW's so called GamerFAQ email address. to see if they will add it onto the FAQ to give a Yes or No answer.

I wrote to them last week actually with something you may find interesting (their reply I mean)

Hey there,

Thanks for writing in to us! We handle all rules questions through our Customer Services department. If you give us a call at 1-800-394-4263 we’ll be able to answer any questions you have. Unfortunately, we don’t answer rules questions via e-mail any more. We find it’s way quicker to answer them over the phone and we can answer any follow up questions that may come up.

Thanks!


Games Workshop

North America Customer Services



Please do not delete previous email threads as this will help us serve you better!



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 Happyjew wrote:
And based on precedent, they would vote 6 to hit. Which makes Seeker Missile via Markerlight the worst anti-flyer weapon in the game.

Except if they're on the Tau flyer, which could use its Networked ML to fire Seekers at BS5 with Skyfire, yes?

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
And based on precedent, they would vote 6 to hit. Which makes Seeker Missile via Markerlight the worst anti-flyer weapon in the game.

Except if they're on the Tau flyer, which could use its Networked ML to fire Seekers at BS5 with Skyfire, yes?

Correct, because in that situation, the Seeker Missiles have the Skyfire special rule.

rigeld2 wrote:

thejughead wrote:
A stunned model has a BS of 1, but the Seeker "is resolved at BS5". It clearly says that statement in the book without any exceptions stated.

And it being resolved at BS5 is irrelevant if you're force to use BS1 for something, like, I don't know... Snap Shots which state that they cannot be modified.

Why are you modifying a Snap Shot BS without permission to?

You have to agree that the reason for this discussion is that the codex rule for seekers conflicts with the BRB snapshop rule. It is expected that codex rules break regular game mechanics, hence why everyone says "codex > brb".

In my opinion, the seeker rule intentionally breaks the snap shot mechanic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The permission is granted in the Tau codex, "resolve at BS5".

Like I said before, stupid wording for both the rules and subsequent FAQ. However I look at it this way;

Unless you have Skyfire, shots at zooming flyers and swooping fmc are resolved as Snap Shots at BS1. Now shots from markerlit seeker missiles are resolved at bs5, however nothing in the rule says that markerlit snap shots are resolved at bs5.

Due to the stupid wording of the rule and faq, the markerlit seeker missile is still making a snap shot because it is still a shot resolved against a flyer or swooping mc. The markerlight was a snap shot and the subsequent markerlit seeker missile is still a snap shot. No conflict arises for the codex to take precedence.

thejughead wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

thejughead wrote:
A stunned model has a BS of 1, but the Seeker "is resolved at BS5". It clearly says that statement in the book without any exceptions stated.

And it being resolved at BS5 is irrelevant if you're force to use BS1 for something, like, I don't know... Snap Shots which state that they cannot be modified.

Why are you modifying a Snap Shot BS without permission to?

You have to agree that the reason for this discussion is that the codex rule for seekers conflicts with the BRB snapshop rule. It is expected that codex rules break regular game mechanics, hence why everyone says "codex > brb".

No, I don't have to agree to that because its not true.
There's no conflict - the Pinpoint rule creates a conflict because Snap gaks cannot ever be modified, but Pinpoint says it can modify them. Codex wins. There's no similar issue in the Seeker rules.

In my opinion, the seeker rule intentionally breaks the snap shot mechanic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The permission is granted in the Tau codex, "resolve at BS5".

And please explain - how does that refer to Snap Shots at all?
Why are you modifying a Snap Shot without permission to do so?

As above.

You are missing the wording "even for snapshots", or ANYTHING where it *directly* conflicts with the snapshots rules

The amazing part is that you refer to the Pinpoint rule, which *specifies* it can alter snapshots, yet fail to see that this is missing for Seekers.

I never mentioned the pinpoint rules in my post.

IMO, you treat the Seeker rule as a USR for the seeker weapon. It does not modify the BS of the model firing it all other weapons of the model fire at BS1.

If it ever comes up in a tournament I hope they have a set of rulings before hand.

The only time this rule ever comes into play for me is if I move the Skyray 12".

@Rigeld2, you can think what you want, but the fact is the rules are conflicting and there are 5 pages worth of discussion in this thread that backs that up.

To be fair, 90% of those 5 pages are word for word rules quotes refuting any conflict and 10% repeating the same arguments that have already been refuted.

There is enough people out there that feel your ruling and arguments on the rule is incorrect. There does not have to be a personal beat down for anyone who disagrees.

If a TO decides one way or another I will abide with it.

As you said Davou there's enough circling with the arguments to close this thread. The issue to me looks undecided until an FAQ is released. I went through this with the wording of the Crisis Weapon load outs, although the pages in the thread were overflowing.

Jughead - no, there is no conflict

For there to be a conflict the BRB has to say "Do Y", with the codex (or more advanced BRB rule) saying "rather than Do Y, Do Z instead"

So, instead of "resolve at BS5", we would need "resolve at BS5, ignoring the snapshot restriction" (or similar)

Absent that qualifying line there is no conflict.

5 pages of debate doesnt imply that the debate is rational, or the answer unclear.

@nos, That statement is your opinion. Also, there is no way that writing rules in that fashion is tenable. There are too many loopholes in writing a rule in that fashion. My belief is that codex trumps BRB in any case. Codex rules do not need explicit definition because the are designed to break/bend the BRB. "Resolve at BS5", means there are no restrictions to resolving this. There are restrictions on how you can get the marker light there.

Only snap shots can hit fliers.

The BS of snap shots can never be modified (unless explicitly permitted).

Firing a seeker at BS 5 is not a snap shot and does not have explicit permission to modify a snap shot.

Firing a seeker at BS1 and modifying it with pinpoint has explicit permission.

Therefore a seeker firing at bs5 cannot hit a flyer.

That's about as RAW as it gets IMO.

 thejughead wrote:
@nos, That statement is your opinion.

Correct.
It's his opinion.
It's a logical opinion.

If you pull the conflict argument and don't use logic it gets ugly.
My codex shows that BS3 models hit on a 4+.
Rule book says that snapfire is only on a 6, but since my codex has a 4+ in it, I'm going to claim conflict and completely ignore the entirety of the hard to hit rules.

-Matt

@HawaiiMatt, the model stats do not change rules and how they are played. The special rules in the Codex do. The comparison between the two Codex stat vs. Brb Stat and Codex Rule vs. BRB Rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It is possible to have two justifiable logical explanations that are completely on opposite ends of the spectrum.

 thejughead wrote:
@nos, That statement is your opinion. Also, there is no way that writing rules in that fashion is tenable. There are too many loopholes in writing a rule in that fashion. My belief is that codex trumps BRB in any case. Codex rules do not need explicit definition because the are designed to break/bend the BRB. "Resolve at BS5", means there are no restrictions to resolving this. There are restrictions on how you can get the marker light there.

So a signum armed model also resolves at BS5 - after all, it is a codex special rule?

Oops, no, we're told that you cannot do that. So what makes you think you can do that in this case?

Rules, page and para, which says that "resolves at BS5" overrides the FAQ stating you resolve at BS1.

 thejughead wrote:
@HawaiiMatt, the model stats do not change rules and how they are played. The special rules in the Codex do. The comparison between the two Codex stat vs. Brb Stat and Codex Rule vs. BRB Rule.

Alpha Warrior (Tyranid Codex) says that a unit of normal Warriors uses the BS and WS of the Tyranid Prime if he's joined to the unit.
This makes the BS of the Warriors 4.
According to you, since the Codex rule is trumping the BRB, a unit of Warriors can fire Snap Shots at BS4 (while the Prime fires at BS1).

It is possible to have two justifiable logical explanations that are completely on opposite ends of the spectrum.

Not really - one of them must be false. In this situation, there is rules support for one and opinion support for the other.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
@nos, That statement is your opinion. Also, there is no way that writing rules in that fashion is tenable. There are too many loopholes in writing a rule in that fashion. My belief is that codex trumps BRB in any case. Codex rules do not need explicit definition because the are designed to break/bend the BRB. "Resolve at BS5", means there are no restrictions to resolving this. There are restrictions on how you can get the marker light there.

So a signum armed model also resolves at BS5 - after all, it is a codex special rule?

Oops, no, we're told that you cannot do that. So what makes you think you can do that in this case?

Rules, page and para, which says that "resolves at BS5" overrides the FAQ stating you resolve at BS1.

Nos, There is no FAQ referring to Seeker missiles. The FAQ refers to the signum, I believe.

 thejughead wrote:
Nos, There is no FAQ referring to Seeker missiles. The FAQ refers to the signum, I believe.

No, but there *is* an FAQ saying that you cannot ever modify a Snap Shot. Which is what you're trying to do without permission.

rigeld2, if the Tyranid Prime is part of the unit then he is firing as well. If his BS has been reduced to 1 then the Warriors are BS1 as well.

 thejughead wrote:
rigeld2, if the Tyranid Prime is part of the unit then he is firing as well. If his BS has been reduced to 1 then the Warriors are BS1 as well.

Not if he opts not to fire.

rigeld2, that is the point of contention the Seeker rules does not modify the To Hit of the model.

 thejughead wrote:
rigeld2, that is the point of contention the Seeker rules does not modify the To Hit of the model.

Except they do.

You're told that you must Snap Shot to hit a flier (Hard to Hit FAQ).
The Broadside spends a markerlight to fire a Seeker.
That Broadside attempts to fire the Seeker at BS5, but must Snap Shoot.
Snap Shot rules set your BS to 1. You attempt to modify that to BS5 (set modifier from spending the marker light) but have no permission to.

I'm sorry but the seeker is a weapon not a model. The seeker is not firing.

 thejughead wrote:
rigeld2, if the Tyranid Prime is part of the unit then he is firing as well. If his BS has been reduced to 1 then the Warriors are BS1 as well.

Actually, his bs is never changed, you just modify the required hit to present BS1; The actual stat is never altered.

 thejughead wrote:
I'm sorry but the seeker is a weapon not a model. The seeker is not firing.

Irrelevant to the point of my post. I'll correct it though - just for you.
Please address the content of the post, not nitpick things that don't matter.

 thejughead wrote:
I'm sorry but the seeker is a weapon not a model. The seeker is not firing.

Exactly, the seeker isnt firing, the model that carries it is, and unless it has skyfire, the hard to hit rule is activated. Nowhere in the seeker missile entry does it say to not activate the hard to hit provision of shooting. In fact, it says to 'resolve the shot' part of resolving a shot, is following all special rules that apply to the shooting phase (including hard to hit).

rigeld2 wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
I'm sorry but the seeker is a weapon not a model. The seeker is not firing.

Irrelevant to the point of my post. I'll correct it though - just for you.
Please address the content of the post, not nitpick things that don't matter.

I'm not being nit picky. My reasoning is relevant. Snap shot rules affect models/units. The seeker does not fire and does not auto hit, so it is resolved.

 thejughead wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
I'm sorry but the seeker is a weapon not a model. The seeker is not firing.

Irrelevant to the point of my post. I'll correct it though - just for you.
Please address the content of the post, not nitpick things that don't matter.

I'm not being nit picky. My reasoning is relevant. Snap shot rules affect models/units. The seeker does not fire and does not auto hit, so it is resolved.

A model fires the seeker missile. This is indisputable.

I dont disagree. A model fires the seeker. The models BS is 1. The Seeker is resolved at BS5.

 thejughead wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
I'm sorry but the seeker is a weapon not a model. The seeker is not firing.

Irrelevant to the point of my post. I'll correct it though - just for you.
Please address the content of the post, not nitpick things that don't matter.

I'm not being nit picky. My reasoning is relevant. Snap shot rules affect models/units. The seeker does not fire and does not auto hit, so it is resolved.

So you are now changing your argument to say hard to hit doesnt apply, rather than it is overruled?

The FAQ uses signum as an *example* f a special rule that isnt allowed to alter the BS roll needed to-hit. Find permission for you to ignore this FAQ. Page and para.

Nos, I never made any of the references you have inferred. The signum modifies the models to hit. They chose to use different wording for the seeker. It should have separate consideration.

 thejughead wrote:
I dont disagree. A model fires the seeker. The models BS is 1. The Seeker is resolved at BS5.

Okay - great.

Model fires the seeker.
The Seeker attempts to resolve at BS5.
Snap Shot sets the BS to 1 as a set modifier, which is applied after everything else. Seeker isn't a modifier, so can't change the BS of the shot.

Hard to Hit says that it must (not should or may) be a Snap Shot to even target a flier.
Either you need permission to modify a Snap Shot (which you don't have) or you need permission to ignore Hard to Hit (which you don't have).

 thejughead wrote:
I dont disagree. A model fires the seeker. The models BS is 1. The Seeker is resolved at BS5.

Then in this case it may not hit the flyer at all, because it is specifically barred from doing so unless the shot is made as a snap shot.

rigeld2 wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
I dont disagree. A model fires the seeker. The models BS is 1. The Seeker is resolved at BS5.

Okay - great.

Model fires the seeker.
The Seeker attempts to resolve at BS5.
Snap Shot sets the BS to 1 as a set modifier, which is applied after everything else. Seeker isn't a modifier, so can't change the BS of the shot.

Hard to Hit says that it must (not should or may) be a Snap Shot to even target a flier.
Either you need permission to modify a Snap Shot (which you don't have) or you need permission to ignore Hard to Hit (which you don't have).

Hard to hit rule is triggered upon firing at a flyer or FMC.

This is how I see it.

Model fires the seeker.
Hard to Hit says that it must (not should or may) be a Snap Shot to even target a flier.
Snap Shot sets the BS to 1 as a set modifier, which is applied after everything else.

The Seeker attempts to resolve at BS5, because his special rules allow it.

 thejughead wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
I dont disagree. A model fires the seeker. The models BS is 1. The Seeker is resolved at BS5.

Okay - great.

Model fires the seeker.
The Seeker attempts to resolve at BS5.
Snap Shot sets the BS to 1 as a set modifier, which is applied after everything else. Seeker isn't a modifier, so can't change the BS of the shot.

Hard to Hit says that it must (not should or may) be a Snap Shot to even target a flier.
Either you need permission to modify a Snap Shot (which you don't have) or you need permission to ignore Hard to Hit (which you don't have).

Hard to hit rule is triggered upon firing at a flyer or FMC.

This is how I see it.

Model fires the seeker.
Hard to Hit says that it must (not should or may) be a Snap Shot to even target a flier.
Snap Shot sets the BS to 1 as a set modifier, which is applied after everything else.

The Seeker attempts to resolve at BS5, because his special rules allow it.

So you're modifying the BS a Snap Shot sets?

 thejughead wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
I dont disagree. A model fires the seeker. The models BS is 1. The Seeker is resolved at BS5.

Okay - great.

Model fires the seeker.
The Seeker attempts to resolve at BS5.
Snap Shot sets the BS to 1 as a set modifier, which is applied after everything else. Seeker isn't a modifier, so can't change the BS of the shot.

Hard to Hit says that it must (not should or may) be a Snap Shot to even target a flier.
Either you need permission to modify a Snap Shot (which you don't have) or you need permission to ignore Hard to Hit (which you don't have).

Hard to hit rule is triggered upon firing at a flyer or FMC.

This is how I see it.

Model fires the seeker.
Hard to Hit says that it must (not should or may) be a Snap Shot to even target a flier.
Snap Shot sets the BS to 1 as a set modifier, which is applied after everything else.

The Seeker attempts to resolve at BS5, because his special rules allow it.

How you see it is reaching. 'Resolve at bs5' is in no way an invitation to use a set value, it just means to resolve the shot using bs5, which is then set to 1 by the hard to hit rule once you start the process of actually resolving the shot.

This is the full Seeker Rule:

Seeker: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Markerlight cost: 1 +
For each markerlight counter expended o n this ability,
the unit immediately fires a single seeker missile (if
it has one) in addition to any other weapons it is
pet-mitted to fire. A seeker missile fired in this way:
- Does not need line of sight.
- Must be fired at the same target as the vehicle's
other weapons.
- Is resolved at Ballistic Skill 5.
- Has the Ignores Cover special rule.
- Does not reduce the number of weapons a vehicle can
fire at its full Ballistic Skill.
- Does count towards the limit of 2 missiles that a flyer
can fire each turn.

then after re-reading the Hard to Hit rules, the following has occurred to me:

1. The probable intent of the Seeker rule is that any model hit with a Markerlight then can have a seeker missile fired at it, and no matter what the shot is resolved at BS5.
2. RAW, Hard to Hit applies to the seeker missile shot.
3. This really needs to be FAQ'd, because I do agree with the intent, mainly because that's how the fluff wants it to work, but until then, it doesn't work that way.
4. As for the OP, if the hammerheads fired anything else during that phase, the fact that the missiles were fired could possibly be illegal in the first place. You can't split missile shots and railgun/Ion Cannon shots up at separate targets.

 McNinja wrote:

1. The probable intent of the Seeker rule is that any model hit with a Markerlight then can have a seeker missile fired at it, and no matter what the shot is resolved at BS5.

You quoted the full rule, but can you show me where you get the 'no matter what' from? As far as I can tell, it says to resolve the shot.... It's no stretch to assume they mean normally; which has provisions for shooting at flyers.... all of which have been quoted a dozen times.

if the intention was for it to be able to hit flyers, they would have said "resolve the shot at bs5, it requires no line of sight, and has the ignore cover and skyfire special rules"

Really, if it was meant to bypass hard to hit, the only thing required of the author would have been to add the word skyfire... Do you honestly thing he Vetock sat there going

"yes, let the nerds dance around a dictionary for my amusement!"

 thejughead wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
I dont disagree. A model fires the seeker. The models BS is 1. The Seeker is resolved at BS5.

Okay - great.

Model fires the seeker.
The Seeker attempts to resolve at BS5.
Snap Shot sets the BS to 1 as a set modifier, which is applied after everything else. Seeker isn't a modifier, so can't change the BS of the shot.

Hard to Hit says that it must (not should or may) be a Snap Shot to even target a flier.
Either you need permission to modify a Snap Shot (which you don't have) or you need permission to ignore Hard to Hit (which you don't have).

Hard to hit rule is triggered upon firing at a flyer or FMC.

This is how I see it.

Model fires the seeker.
Hard to Hit says that it must (not should or may) be a Snap Shot to even target a flier.
Snap Shot sets the BS to 1 as a set modifier, which is applied after everything else.

The Seeker attempts to resolve at BS5, because his special rules allow it.

Well those are some mental gymnastics that are not supported by the rules at all. The model does not fire the Seeker Missile and then the Seeker Missile rolls to hit and thus uses the Markerlight. A simple question kills your entire argument,

If you are firing a markerlit Seeker Missile at a flyer or swooping fmc, are you or are you not making a Snap Shot? You cannot possibly answer no because you are targetting a flyer or swooping fmc. Your only answer is yes and because it is yes, the BS of that Snap Shot must be resolved at BS 1 because you have absolutely zero permission to modify that BS in the rules for a Seeker Missile that has used a Markerlight token. I don't think it is right, I don't think it will stand up to a future FAQ, but that is currently how the rules are written. One little addenda to the markerlit seeker missile rule of, "including Snap Shots" would fix this issue if that is GW's intent with markerlit seeker missiles, but as it stands a shot a a flyer is and will only be a snap shot in the absence of skyfire or a rule specifically stating different.

 davou wrote:

 McNinja wrote:

1. The probable intent of the Seeker rule is that any model hit with a Markerlight then can have a seeker missile fired at it, and no matter what the shot is resolved at BS5.

You quoted the full rule, but can you show me where you get the 'no matter what' from? As far as I can tell, it says to resolve the shot.... It's no stretch to assume they mean normally; which has provisions for shooting at flyers.... all of which have been quoted a dozen times.

if the intention was for it to be able to hit flyers, they would have said "resolve the shot at bs5, it requires no line of sight, and has the ignore cover and skyfire special rules"

Really, if it was meant to bypass hard to hit, the only thing required of the author would have been to add the word skyfire... Do you honestly thing he Vetock sat there going

"yes, let the nerds dance around a dictionary for my amusement!"

I completely agree. All that was needed was some bit allowing it to bypass Hard to Hit, perhaps its an oversight, or perhaps not. Either way, right now we're stuck with Seekers using Hard to Hit unless you happen to have multiple MLs on a Flyer.

Anyway, I got the "no matter what" from the fluff. Again the probable intent is that if there's a ML on the target, it's being tracked as it screams across the sky, and so the missile locks on to the ML signature and speeds towards it, much like how modern-day laser-target missiles work. Once the target is painted with the laser, it is accurate to within a few feet, no matter if it's a plane or tank or some dude. Although that does bring up the question of how the hell a Pathfinder can keep the ML on a flyer for that long (if the MLs work the same as how ours do). considering how far away and how fast it is going.

I'll propose somthing new since noone else has.


The seeker missle isnt "Fired" at all.

It is "Used", just like a peice of wargear, which is what it is. There are other pieces of wargear you have to activate.

There are no other weapons in game that follow the same rules so there is nothing to fall back on for presedence.

You spend the markerlight token, the missle activates, BS5 test to see if it hits, done.

Snapshot never comes up because even though it is coming from a model, its not a shooting attack from that model.

The model itself is considered to be snap firing at the flier and is at BS1 due to it having to fire at the same target, no argument there.
Also, while it is true that models whom cant snap fire cannot target the flier, this never comes up, seeing as how the model is snap firing with its other weapon systems. The seeker missle itself is not a model so that rule doesnt prevent it from activating.


SO IN CONCLUSION, treat the seeker missle as an activated piece of wargear that costs a markerlight token. Nothing prevents a piece of wargear from activating againgst a flier, and in this game the activation states it is resolved at BS5.

Im leaning towards an intentional leave out -

Skyrays and broadsides are both pelnty capable of giving seekers skyfire, and in desperation, you can just spend some tokens to up the BS one pip at a time.

 davou wrote:
Im leaning towards an intentional leave out -

Skyrays and broadsides are both pelnty capable of giving seekers skyfire, and in desperation, you can just spend some tokens to up the BS one pip at a time.

Well if the argument against BS5 shots is true. which it could be. That will also stop you from raising the BS of a unit without skyfire by using Markerlights.

 cerbrus2 wrote:

 davou wrote:
Im leaning towards an intentional leave out -

Skyrays and broadsides are both pelnty capable of giving seekers skyfire, and in desperation, you can just spend some tokens to up the BS one pip at a time.

Well if the argument against BS5 shots is true. which it could be. That will also stop you from raising the BS of a unit without skyfire by using Markerlights.

No, because the pinpoint rule has a provision in its wording that says the shots still count as snap shots despite altered BS, The problem with the seeker entry is that it does not contain such a provision.

Eihnlazer wrote:
SO IN CONCLUSION, treat the seeker missle as an activated piece of wargear that costs a markerlight token. Nothing prevents a piece of wargear from activating againgst a flier, and in this game the activation states it is resolved at BS5.

Except it's explicitly a weapon and can be fired without the markerlight.
And yes - Hard to Hit would *still* require a Snap Shot.

That's not a new proposal, that's the same proposal of 'Ignore the hard to hit rule' as has been made for six pages... Its a weapon, its listed under weapons in the back of the book, and it has no explicit permission to ignore a core rule in 6th - Hard to it.

Also, Very random contribution for your first ever post there dude.

Its only considered a weapon if fired normally without the use of a markerlight token.

If using the markerlight token however its different. It should be treated like activating a one time use wargear and ignore rules that effect a firing model, such as Hard to Hit.




*also, since when does post count mean for anything. I usually hang out on Belloflostsouls. Just passing by and saw this thread.

Eihnlazer wrote:
Its only considered a weapon if fired normally without the use of a markerlight token.

If using the markerlight token however its different. It should be treated like activating a one time use wargear and ignore rules that effect a firing model, such as Hard to Hit.




*also, since when does post count mean for anything. I usually hang out on Belloflostsouls. Just passing by and saw this thread.

Unfortunately a Common sense explanations never works here. As in Marker light guides the seeker. And is controlling the seeker Not the model that has it equipped. hence why you don't need LOS from the Model it is equipped on. And the fact you get no cover save from it as the Markerlight has it pin pointed. But This is just a Fluffy explanation of why it works. And as such is not actually a rule of how it works so cannot be used. I didn't get back in time to phone the number GW emailed me for Rules enquirers. But at the same time. Even if it was confirmed by GW Customer services that they do hit flyers on BS5. Posting it in here would also mean very little. And would still be argued That it doesn't count because its not in the FAQ's. Again its Rules as written over common sense.

Eihnlazer wrote:
Its only considered a weapon if fired normally without the use of a markerlight token.

If using the markerlight token however its different. It should be treated like activating a one time use wargear and ignore rules that effect a firing model, such as Hard to Hit.

Any rules to back up this claim? You still have to compete with this FAQ:

"Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. (SIC)

I guess you have to have enough post-cred to give an opinion here.

 thejughead wrote:
I guess you have to have enough post-cred to give an opinion here.

No one's saying that.
Perhaps you'd like to attempt a rebuttal against the points I made?

All this talk about how the seeker missile is resolved at BS 5, did it ever occur the reason they give it an explicit BS is because they wanted to get rid of the confusion of 'what BS the missiles fire at?" A lot of models can get this upgrade and without the explicit BS assignment they would of had to word it as 'Seeker uses the firing models BS' which would of brought up the argument that I get he benefits of the model when I fire a seeker because you know, I'm using that model to fire it bla bla bla which model is the 'actually' firing the seeker bla bla bla. But no, they bypass all the crap that they would need to define and write an additional rule for by just giving it a static BS entry to use. The marker light is doing the work, lets not have to worry about BS 4 vehicles and BS 3 suites or w/e they are and provide a static entry of 5 to make it more accurate as having to hit twice is a bit much for a one shot weapon. Having a BS 5 assigned doesn't mean you ignore rules like 'hard to hit', they are just giving you a static entry to bypass the confusion presented with the alternative 'use the firing models BS'.

You hit with a marker light on a 6, you fire a seeker with a BS of 5, the seeker gets knocked down to 1 due to 'hard to hit' like everyone else w/o skyfire.

Eihnlazer wrote:
Its only considered a weapon if fired normally without the use of a markerlight token.

If using the markerlight token however its different. It should be treated like activating a one time use wargear and ignore rules that effect a firing model, such as Hard to Hit.

Sure, it is not a weapon when fired using a Markerlight. Therefore, you can hit on a 2+. Oh, but just so you are aware, since it is not a weapon, you do not get the strength for armour penetration, just a straight D6, so I'm not worried about my Flyers being hit.

rigeld2, I did. You dismissed them.

thejughead: I have one simple question for you:

Is the BS used for seeker missiles a modifier, yes or no?

Before you answer, please think about this -
1) If it is a modifier, it cannot affect Snap Shots as you cannot modify Snap Shots (unless you have explicit permission, see Pinpoint).
2) If it is not a modifier, then why are you not modifying it with a set modifier (which is applied last)?

thejughead wrote:rigeld2, I did. You dismissed them.

rigeld2 wrote:

 thejughead wrote:


Hard to hit rule is triggered upon firing at a flyer or FMC.

This is how I see it.

Model fires the seeker.
Hard to Hit says that it must (not should or may) be a Snap Shot to even target a flier.
Snap Shot sets the BS to 1 as a set modifier, which is applied after everything else.

The Seeker attempts to resolve at BS5, because his special rules allow it.

So you're modifying the BS a Snap Shot sets?

No, you never responded to that one. Perhaps you wouldn't mind?

As I have said before, the seeker resolves at BS5. The firer is still BS1.

 thejughead wrote:
As I have said before, the seeker resolves at BS5. The firer is still BS1.

Incorrect. Snap shots are resolved at bs1. The firer's bs has not changed.

The seeker cannot resolve at bs5 vs a flyer because then it wouldn't be a snapshot as snapshots cannot be modified (except by pinpoint).

 thejughead wrote:
As I have said before, the seeker resolves at BS5. The firer is still BS1.

And that doesn't matter a damn bit,


"Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. (SIC)

The Seeker could resolve hits at BS10, but when it even has a synapse fire in their brain of thinking of hitting a Zooming Flyer or Swooping FMC, it has to Snap Shot. It makes no difference who or what is taking the shot, unless their is a rule specifically overriding that it does not have to take a snap shot or that it is unaffected by snapshot.

 thejughead wrote:
As I have said before, the seeker resolves at BS5. The firer is still BS1.

So it's not a modifier? Then it's also not a Snap Shot and cannot hit a flyer per the Hard to Hit rules.

Or is it a modifier? Then it cannot modify a Snap Shot per the Snap Shot rules.

Which is it? A modifier or not? Or some third thing that you need to find rules support for?

Its not a modifier. Of that im certain.


So as per current RAW, if you consider it an attack from a model, you cannot fire it at a flier.


However seeing as how the RAI is pretty clear (being that you can fire it at fliers), we have to consider other ways to allow that.


So i stick with the fact that its a piece of wargear, ACTIVATED by the expenditure of a markerlight in the exact same manner that spending a markerlight removes cover or increases BS by +1.

Unless you can find somthing that prevents you from spending markerlight tokens to activate, you cannot stop the seeker missle activation.

Eihnlazer wrote:
Its not a modifier. Of that im certain.


So as per current RAW, if you consider it an attack from a model, you cannot fire it at a flier.


However seeing as how the RAI is pretty clear (being that you can fire it at fliers), we have to consider other ways to allow that.


So i stick with the fact that its a piece of wargear, ACTIVATED by the expenditure of a markerlight in the exact same manner that spending a markerlight removes cover or increases BS by +1.

Unless you can find somthing that prevents you from spending markerlight tokens to activate, you cannot stop the seeker missle activation.

Is it a weapon? If so, then was it fired as a Snap Shot? If you used BS5 then you did not fire it as a snap shot. If it is not a weapon you do not get to add the Strength to Armour Penetration.

your trying too hard man.

If you cant accept my opinion on the matter just say so.

RAI im right so thats what im gonna play by and i gave a legitimate way to explain it.

Im not a TO though, so obviously my way isnt the only way.

You can re-read my earlier posts. We just keep going in circles.

Eihnlazer wrote:your trying too hard man.

If you cant accept my opinion on the matter just say so.

RAI im right so thats what im gonna play by and i gave a legitimate way to explain it.

Im not a TO though, so obviously my way isnt the only way.

You have literally zero evidence for that intent - in fact, going by the previous book (which had amazingly similar rules for this issue) you would in fact *not* use BS5.

thejughead wrote:You can re-read my earlier posts. We just keep going in circles.

Awesome - you don't actually have an argument with any basis in reality, you just want to say some things that disagree with actual rules.

 thejughead wrote:
You can re-read my earlier posts. We just keep going in circles.

Your earlier posts were deficient in using any rules related to 40k

Resolved at BS5 is a modifier, a set one in fact. Read oh, page 2 I think. The definition is in there. So, you set the BS to 5, then it is set to 1 by Snapfire.

Your argument is rebutted, completely. Please only post further if you have some rules to contribute to the discussion - actual rulebook ones.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
You can re-read my earlier posts. We just keep going in circles.

Your earlier posts were deficient in using any rules related to 40k

Resolved at BS5 is a modifier, a set one in fact. Read oh, page 2 I think. The definition is in there. So, you set the BS to 5, then it is set to 1 by Snapfire.

Your argument is rebutted, completely. Please only post further if you have some rules to contribute to the discussion - actual rulebook ones.

As the active player, when I have two "Set to X" effects I'm going to set to 1 for Snap Shot first, then because the codex block says "Resolve at BS5" I'm going to set it to BS5.

 Miri wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
You can re-read my earlier posts. We just keep going in circles.

Your earlier posts were deficient in using any rules related to 40k

Resolved at BS5 is a modifier, a set one in fact. Read oh, page 2 I think. The definition is in there. So, you set the BS to 5, then it is set to 1 by Snapfire.

Your argument is rebutted, completely. Please only post further if you have some rules to contribute to the discussion - actual rulebook ones.

As the active player, when I have two "Set to X" effects I'm going to set to 1 for Snap Shot first, then because the codex block says "Resolve at BS5" I'm going to set it to BS5.

The codex does not say set to X, it says resolve. Part of that resolve process is 'set to 1'

rigeld2 wrote:

Eihnlazer wrote:your trying too hard man.

thejughead wrote:You can re-read my earlier posts. We just keep going in circles.

Awesome - you don't actually have an argument with any basis in reality, you just want to say some things that disagree with actual rules.

You're right I should trade my 40k card.