kodos wrote: I have waited many years for good looking Khemri core infantry, if the basic skeleton set is hard plastic, Mantic has sold me another army.
it will be. Core infantry is always done in plastic. Enslaved Guardians however I suspect will be metal.
kodos wrote: I have waited many years for good looking Khemri core infantry, if the basic skeleton set is hard plastic, Mantic has sold me another army.
it will be. Core infantry is always done in plastic. Enslaved Guardians however I suspect will be metal.
They'd probably be either restic or metal, but yeah the Guardians probably wouldn't be HIPS. Looking at similar stuff in the Mantic catalog, werewolves are restic but molochs and forest shamblers are metal.
scarletsquig wrote: From what I've heard, the upgrades will be hard plastic, the skeleton sprue is tooled so that one half of it can be replaced something already done with the revenants), so this very likely considering that the concepts are showing a replacement of the torsos, arms and heads.
No Kickstarter for them either, most likely. It's a new release to give ex-GW players some miniatures to buy for their army now that Tomb Kings are OOP.
While it would be nice to have the upgrades in plastic, Mattjgilbert alluded to there being metal uppgrades.
Now that you mention it though. The skeletons and revenant sprues do have about half their sprues exactly the same so it presumably is possible to just replace the torso/head part of the mold and not tool a completely new steel mold for the entire sprue. That would make it a lot cheaper and easier to do dust themed skeletons in plastic.
Yep. Unlike the old GW plastic skeletons (I haven't assembled the newer version so I don't know how those go together) the mantic skeleton torsos don't simply attach directly on top of the spine.
There's a indent in the torso piece that that fits with a raised part of the leg piece. So there's a lot more surface that contact, and some of the legs even has a peg for extra stability.
As mentioned before, Metal bits on plastic legs does mean a high center of gravity but that's easily fixed by multibasing, or less easily fixed by weights or magnets under the base.
What do you use for weights? Do you use any material, or are there special 20mm wide weights out there? I used to use the metal scraps from GW's metal minis, but those aren't being sold anymore, at least in stores.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: What do you use for weights? Do you use any material, or are there special 20mm wide weights out there?
I used to use the metal scraps from GW's metal minis, but those aren't being sold anymore, at least in stores.
I used pennies here in America. Our smallest denomination coin made a great weight.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: What do you use for weights? Do you use any material, or are there special 20mm wide weights out there?
I used to use the metal scraps from GW's metal minis, but those aren't being sold anymore, at least in stores.
Check your local fishing store.
Small lead weights can be bought reasonably cheep. They are very dense, and soft enough that you can fairly easily cut them or squish them together a bit with pliers if you need for them to fit under a hollow base.
I pushed hard for the inclusion of this forum but so far, response has been a bit slow compared to other new forums. I know that's partially due to transition, but it would be great to see more activity discussing KoW on Dakka! Honestly, we had a bit more bleeding into the normal WHFB sections before so hoping folks will migrate over to the dedicated area to discuss it now that we've separated things out
Mantic wants you! We have a massive recruitment drive on, as we scale up for the year ahead. Click the link and look down the left hand column (the green bit) to see the roles - and some are global so you don't even need to live in Nottingham smile emoticon
If those Empire of Dust guys are in plastic--any kind of plastic--I will buy many. If they give them at least one additional khopesh option, I will buy twice as many. They definitely need more khopesh.
The earth elementals look pretty good, but I doubt they will be in a material or price point that makes them truly desirable for anyone who already has the Bones equivalents.
I do think that for big organic-ish models, PVC is a fine fit. I'm happy enough with my lesser obsidian golems, which look quite similar to the earth elementals, in PVC. I really dislike it for anything smaller, though!
After fiddling with the nature elementals form Kings of War, I would have much preferred any other medium than metal. They had some many little fiddly parts, all bent out of shape, some snapped, ridiculous flash that I couldn't tell what was a part and what wasn't, mold slippage...
Of course there's no guarantee they would have been much better in another medium, but still...
Not a fan of hybrid kits. Guess we'll wait and see.
I hate hybrid kits. I'd rather have fully metal guys (like my 6th edition Tomb Guard) or fully plastic guys - c'mon, a cool Egyptian skeleton kit will sell for Mantic like gangbusters, especially as GW's was not that great. Or... just... retool the current skeleton sprue with new upper halves!
I actually like all of those renders and sketches.
judgedoug wrote: They mentioned on Facebook that they are metal conversion kits for the current plastic undead.
Facepalm.
That's just... no. Don't do that.
Mantic, almo...
judgedoug wrote: I hate hybrid kits. I'd rather have fully metal guys (like my 6th edition Tomb Guard) or fully plastic guys - c'mon, a cool Egyptian skeleton kit will sell for Mantic like gangbusters, especially as GW's was not that great. Or... just... retool the current skeleton sprue with new upper halves!
Yeah, this is a very good time to get some good looking TK out there.
Azazelx wrote: I actually like all of those renders and sketches.
judgedoug wrote: They mentioned on Facebook that they are metal conversion kits for the current plastic undead.
Facepalm.
That's just... no. Don't do that.
Mantic, almo...
judgedoug wrote: I hate hybrid kits. I'd rather have fully metal guys (like my 6th edition Tomb Guard) or fully plastic guys - c'mon, a cool Egyptian skeleton kit will sell for Mantic like gangbusters, especially as GW's was not that great. Or... just... retool the current skeleton sprue with new upper halves!
Yeah, this is a very good time to get some good looking TK out there.
The way their skeletons are built, it shouldn't be a problem at all for connecting, unlike most metal/plastic hybrids. The issue people are having with flash on their metals though...different matter. That could be problematic.
I would prefer just one head on my hell hounds. Cerberus makes it big, and suddenly every hound from every afterlife has to have three heads. It gets old.
If Mantic are smart, they could be both. Optional 'staff weapon' tops wold be a lot of fun. They'd be easy enough to convert if the minis are plastic, though.
Wait. Are you still there? I need you to do something for me: please grab Ronnie by the shirtfront and scream the word "plastic" as loud as you can. You'd be a real mensch.
I got to see all the new metals for the Empire of Dust today, the infantry look really great as well.
Also, they're making Tomb Swarm minis which are really nice.
The main big news about KoW is that there will be a skirmish game set in the KoW world. They hope to Kickstart the new game, and use this as a means for funding new hard plastics for existing armies, and some new heroes in metal or resin as leaders.
The idea being something like each different army having a box full of 4-5 different 5-man sprues that you then use to build your warband.
So, it'll mostly be a case of a new set of rules, and lots of new minis which can either be used for the skirmish game or for KoW, in the same way that the release of Deadzone supports Warpath, and vice-versa. It will get a lot more new sprues produced for KoW very soon.
Skirmish game won't have the grid/ cube system that Deadzone has, and will focus on customizing characters, having them level up etc. Closer to Mordheim than Frostgrave.
Licensing is taking a very long break after The Walking Dead is released, and Mantic will be focusing on it's own IP.
Another tidbit - Ronnie intends to have Reaper Bones stocked in full on the Mantic webstore to make it easier for UK buyers to get hold of it. He realizes they're a great source of large monsters for use in KoW.
The Open Day was really enjoyable, most fun one I've been to in a while, the 30-minute terrain building was loads of fun, pile of random battlezones bits, and 30 minutes to make something out of them. Keep what you built at the end of it, prizes for the most interesting/ creative build.
There were some really creative results, people built aircraft and giant robots out of them!
Wait. Are you still there? I need you to do something for me: please grab Ronnie by the shirtfront and scream the word "plastic" as loud as you can. You'd be a real mensch.
I'm not fast enough to catch me a Ronnie. Whatever he had for breakfast today, he was like a fething bumble bee.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: If Mantic are smart, they could be both. Optional 'staff weapon' tops wold be a lot of fun. They'd be easy enough to convert if the minis are plastic, though.
They'll be dual kits with ranged weapons.
The arms in the top of the picture is holding large crossbows.
Another tidbit - Ronnie intends to have Reaper Bones stocked in full on the Mantic webstore to make it easier for UK buyers to get hold of it. He realizes they're a great source of large monsters for use in KoW.
The big Egyptian guys sure look pretty bad. They look like somebody took a bulked up sculpt, and just carved random grooves into it to make it look "techy" or..something.
On a positive note, the new plastics look extremely impressive. I may buy me my first Mantic miniatures since the Basilean tragedy of 2013.
Also, I'm very hopeful about whatever new plastic mix Mantic is using at the moment, as it receives high marks from just about everybody.
Love the look of the empire of dust stuff. I would love those 'jaffa' to get some Sci fi staff weapons as an option.
Real shame there going for metal conversion parts to do them, I'm sure HIPS kits would sell like hot cakes.
Mantic - almost, really is a thing isn't it. When the renders for the centuars came out I was planning a new army. With them being limited pose metals I haven't even brought one box yet. These might also just end up on a one day wish list.
timetowaste85 wrote: The way their skeletons are built, it shouldn't be a problem at all for connecting, unlike most metal/plastic hybrids. The issue people are having with flash on their metals though...different matter. That could be problematic.
The metal/plastic skeleton archer hybrid kits are terrible.
Any type of hybrid kits are terrible. HIPS would be best and quite frankly this is what they should be running KS for, to tool plastic kits, even if for example 1 KS to tool 1 HIPS kit and another KS to tool a different HIPS kit. not running KS for (unfinished)games that they have already run them for.
A UK stockist for Reaper Bones would be fantastic. I've backed two Bones kickstarters, but when I want stuff between kickstarters I tend to look at the Reaper site, contemplate how much import duty I will pay, go and look at some UK suppliers instead, see how much of a markup they've placed on the big monsters compared to the Reaper site, and then not buy at all.
The main big news about KoW is that there will be a skirmish game set in the KoW world. They hope to Kickstart the new game, and use this as a means for funding new hard plastics for existing armies, and some new heroes in metal or resin as leaders.
The idea being something like each different army having a box full of 4-5 different 5-man sprues that you then use to build your warband.
So, it'll mostly be a case of a new set of rules, and lots of new minis which can either be used for the skirmish game or for KoW, in the same way that the release of Deadzone supports Warpath, and vice-versa. It will get a lot more new sprues produced for KoW very soon.
Skirmish game won't have the grid/ cube system that Deadzone has, and will focus on customizing characters, having them level up etc. Closer to Mordheim than Frostgrave.
This is frankly the most exciting news I've heard out of the Open Day yet! This will be my next Mantic "Oh god, what am I going to do with all the stuff in this box?" Kickstart.
I'm all for new plastic troops for the KoW armies (especially Abyssal Dwarves) and the warbands sound exactly like the "plastic sprue sampler packs" I've been wishing I could pick up since I got my Dungeon Saga stuff.
Mantic would probably be better off not making Empire of Dust kits at all rather than making them metal upgrade parts for plastic kits and metal large infantry. The market just doesn't support those things like it used to, especially when the market can buy Reaper Bones minis from the same site. But then, I wonder what Mantic will do with their $50 archfiends and colossal elementals when they'll also be selling Reaper's equivalents for $10-$15.
My dream would be for Mantic or Reaper to hire Fitz from Wargods of Aegyptus to sculpt some minis for plastic/Bones. The guy knows how to sculpt cool Egyptian-themed minis, and his Amazons could give Sieldwolf some real competition if they were tooled in plastic or DUST PVC. If it were cheaper, the companies could just buy the rights to a few existing minis and be able to churn out an exciting boardgame type of force.
That not- Balrog is also about the same size as GW's $130+ Skarbrand model.
It's all subjective, and how much you want out of your hobby time/ money.
Owning just about everything Bob showed there (minus the marine, no marines for me, no siree!) or at least having checked them out in person, the Mantic one still feels like a good value. It's got a different aesthetc compared to the rest of them. To me, as long as it stands out as something unique, I'm probably going to be interested.
I could care less about the Aegytpus stuff, *unless* they decided to go back and make some properly sized Sobeki. Way too human sized for my tastes.
The main big news about KoW is that there will be a skirmish game set in the KoW world. They hope to Kickstart the new game, and use this as a means for funding new hard plastics for existing armies, and some new heroes in metal or resin as leaders.
The idea being something like each different army having a box full of 4-5 different 5-man sprues that you then use to build your warband.
So, it'll mostly be a case of a new set of rules, and lots of new minis which can either be used for the skirmish game or for KoW, in the same way that the release of Deadzone supports Warpath, and vice-versa. It will get a lot more new sprues produced for KoW very soon.
Skirmish game won't have the grid/ cube system that Deadzone has, and will focus on customizing characters, having them level up etc. Closer to Mordheim than Frostgrave.
This is frankly the most exciting news I've heard out of the Open Day yet! This will be my next Mantic "Oh god, what am I going to do with all the stuff in this box?" Kickstart.
I'm all for new plastic troops for the KoW armies (especially Abyssal Dwarves) and the warbands sound exactly like the "plastic sprue sampler packs" I've been wishing I could pick up since I got my Dungeon Saga stuff.
Indeed, a big box of 'mix and match' fantasy parts would be a godsend for Mordheim/Frostgrave/RPG players. I guess they could already do something similar with the existing sprues, but some of the older ones like the Dwarves and Elves could definitely do with an update, to pack more stuff in and just overhaul/tighten up the sculpts. It's a win-win for Mantic as well; package 4 of the same sprue together, you have a KoW regiment box, or sell them individually/bundled for players only wanting a small taster for each faction or using them for a Skirmish/RPG.
They're not going to be selling Reaper Bones stuff that cheaply,
as even if they don't mark them up (and they probably will) from the US prices they will need to add 20% to cover the extra tax we pay in VAT compared to the US
(but I very much agree that if they want the Empire of Dust to make any real impact they will need to do some sort of plastic for them
I did ask about Nightstalkers, and models for them are planned, but won't be made for a long time, they're looking at some crossover between them and the Twilight Kin, who they're going to rework to be a very different take on evil elves in terms of background.
KoW Historical and Northern Alliance are the next supplements to be released.
KoW Historical will include the core rules alongside the army lists so that historical players can buy it and not have to bother with any sort of fantasy theme.
There will be a selection of core units in a single master army list, and each army type will be able to pick a restricted selection of these core units, along with having their own unique units in addition. Magic items naturally won't exist, but Veteran Abilities to upgrade units with will exist in a functionally identical manner.
The base points values being used will be the Kingdoms of Men list, so it will be possible to play historical armies against fantasy armies if you want to have your greek phalanxes face off against the skeletal minions of Hades.
DarkBlack wrote: I wonder if they'll allow for multiple scales, most historical rules do.
I would probably switch to KoW historical instead of what I'm doing now if it works at 15mm.
As I understand it, the KoW historical supplement uses the same basic rules as regular KoW. It's just new army lists with (pehaps?) some difference in army construction.
You can easily play KoW with other scales since it's all based on unit footprints. Depending on the scale and how your stuff are based it may be best to scale the units down a bit for smaller scales though.
If you have 6mm models on 20x40mm bases for example (like Warmaster and warhammer ancients do I believe) you can run one stand as one troop, combining them 2 or four together to form regiments and hordes. In that case you might also want to run 1" = 1cm or 1" = 1/2"
But 15mm should work just fine with just the basic rules.
The armies I am building for my personal games right now are 15mm figures on bases half the size of normal 28mm, with all ranges as centimeters. As I am working around the schedule of being a new parent, for speed I decided that each troop has just 3 men on a 25x50 base, and you push bases together to make your regiments and hordes for maximum flexibility. I thought the 3-man troops would look wierd, but it just gives the game more of an intimate skirmish-level feel, where monsters actually seem more impressive.
My Twilight Kin so far (the rest are primed in the background, with an Orc/Gobbo army. The big croc-man from Hell Dorado was added from my 28mm collection as my idea for a wingless Archfiend of the Abyss.
Spoiler:
The half-scale works quite well, and allows just one of my 3x4 tables to be used, too, so it takes up less space to play.
A company called Splintered Light Miniatures. They have great minis that would work well for Twilight Kin, Elves, Orcs and Goblins, and undead-even some Egyptian ones which I may eventually get to be my "Tomb Kings". Look under 15/18mm Fantasy. There's even some tree-kin, Ents and smaller satyr-like beastmen that would work well for Elves and Nature armies.
Super cheap, too. You get 12 figures (usually 3 sculpts with 4 of each) for 8 bucks (US). With my basing method everything works perfect as one 12-pack makes either 4 troops/2 regiments/1 horde, And I will be basing my cavalry 2 to a base, you can make 3 troops from one 6-pack for 12 bucks.
My case is obviously a bit different as to how I base them, but it allowed me to get into KoW with two 800pt armies for 50 bucks, which I planned out as if it was a starter set (each army got basic infantry, a ranged selection, and heroes)
The company is great to deal with, and even donate 10% of every order to a charity in Georgia to end child abuse/sex slavery, so you get the feel-good angle. They are US based, so shipping might suck over the pond, though.
Half-sized unit footprints and cm instead of inches is generally the best way to go about smaller scales, it works well for 6-15mm, what varies after that point is simply the number of minis on a base.
Alternatively you can simply use a giant board and use inches if you're using the small scale as a means of getting lots of minis on the table.
Smaller-scle gaming was also mentioned in the KoW seminar, and Ronnie said something like "When it comes to releasing small-scale models, our hearts say fantasy, our heads say sci-fi", meaning that while they'd love to make KoW minis at that scale, there's probably more of a market for Warpath at that scale.
Siege supplement is something they'd like to do, but want it done properly, so it'll be a while off.
judgedoug wrote: They mentioned on Facebook that they are metal conversion kits for the current plastic undead.
Facepalm. I hate hybrid kits. I'd rather have fully metal guys (like my 6th edition Tomb Guard) or fully plastic guys - c'mon, a cool Egyptian skeleton kit will sell for Mantic like gangbusters, especially as GW's was not that great. Or... just... retool the current skeleton sprue with new upper halves!
The way their skeletons are built, it shouldn't be a problem at all for connecting, unlike most metal/plastic hybrids. The issue people are having with flash on their metals though...different matter. That could be problematic.
Aside from the issues with flash and soft metal, I don't think Mantic's thin, lightweight plastic skeletons are the best models to have a metal upper torso on. Unless you're gluing them down to a regiment base.
Taarnak wrote: They seriously need an art director. Most of that is atrocious.
~Eric
I like the zombies, but the Egyptian toilet paper-men... Wow.
Yeah, the larger renders don't do them any favours. The Zombies have some proportion issues. it could just be the angle of the render, I suppose - but yes, I agree - they need an art director and have needed one for years.
KoW Historical and Northern Alliance are the next supplements to be released.
KoW Historical will include the core rules alongside the army lists so that historical players can buy it and not have to bother with any sort of fantasy theme.
There will be a selection of core units in a single master army list, and each army type will be able to pick a restricted selection of these core units, along with having their own unique units in addition. Magic items naturally won't exist, but Veteran Abilities to upgrade units with will exist in a functionally identical manner.
The base points values being used will be the Kingdoms of Men list, so it will be possible to play historical armies against fantasy armies if you want to have your greek phalanxes face off against the skeletal minions of Hades.
fething awesome. Please tell me that the RC has been involved in the development.
judgedoug wrote: They mentioned on Facebook that they are metal conversion kits for the current plastic undead.
Facepalm. I hate hybrid kits. I'd rather have fully metal guys (like my 6th edition Tomb Guard) or fully plastic guys - c'mon, a cool Egyptian skeleton kit will sell for Mantic like gangbusters, especially as GW's was not that great. Or... just... retool the current skeleton sprue with new upper halves!
The way their skeletons are built, it shouldn't be a problem at all for connecting, unlike most metal/plastic hybrids. The issue people are having with flash on their metals though...different matter. That could be problematic.
Aside from the issues with flash and soft metal, I don't think Mantic's thin, lightweight plastic skeletons are the best models to have a metal upper torso on. Unless you're gluing them down to a regiment base.
FFS.
Yeah, cuz THAT was really necessary...
Anyway, having built a full battalion of their undead, the legs come with the back half of the ribs attached with a hole in the middle. You can easily attach the front rib piece to it. And seeing how the feet are attached to a circular disc that fits inside the standard KoW square base, the only way it should be falling over is if you cut it off the round bit. Which becomes your problem. If it was attaching metal to the top of the spinal column piece, I'd say "hell no, Mantic you're nuts!!" But it isn't. It's meant to be properly seated. Would plastic be better? Yes. Does the metal have a good chance of flash issues? Yes. But attaching and staying upright shouldn't be an issue at all. Pick your argument better next time, if you'd like it taken seriously (and avoid the antagonistic approach when addressing somebody who just happens to disagree with you).
Smaller-scle gaming was also mentioned in the KoW seminar, and Ronnie said something like "When it comes to releasing small-scale models, our hearts say fantasy, our heads say sci-fi", meaning that while they'd love to make KoW minis at that scale, there's probably more of a market for Warpath at that scale.
With GW switching Epic to 8mm, Mantic would do well to go 6mm and adopt any old players who are unwilling to replace all their old models.
Or, of course, just go 10mm and benefit from all the Dropzone Commander scenery and stuff.
timetowaste85 wrote: Anyway, having built a full battalion of their undead, the legs come with the back half of the ribs attached with a hole in the middle. You can easily attach the front rib piece to it. And seeing how the feet are attached to a circular disc that fits inside the standard KoW square base, the only way it should be falling over is if you cut it off the round bit. Which becomes your problem. If it was attaching metal to the top of the spinal column piece, I'd say "hell no, Mantic you're nuts!!" But it isn't. It's meant to be properly seated. Would plastic be better? Yes. Does the metal have a good chance of flash issues? Yes. But attaching and staying upright shouldn't be an issue at all. Pick your argument better next time, if you'd like it taken seriously (and avoid the antagonistic approach when addressing somebody who just happens to disagree with you).
so with a full battalion of their undead, you must have several troops of the skeleton archers, right? The ones with the metal uppoer torsos? The ones that don't align with the spines properly, have a 1mm square surface area to adhere to, and fall apart if someone _thinks_ of a swift wind?
Those models are terrrrible and they are the exact same as these new Empire of Dust, except these new models will undoubtedly be more top-heavy what with all the fun accouterments and shields and whatnot.
It's a really bad, dumb, stupid, terrible, awful idea to continue down this path. They could launch a KS tomorrow for 7 days asking for 10 grand to tool the sprue and they'd get it.
Bolognesus wrote: It does take some chutzpah to strike that tone and immediately complain the other is being antagonistic.
FFS, they'll still be annoyingly top-heavy when attached to the intended 20mm bases.
So weight your bases. If you want to do it properly, order Plusmodel lead wire and fix it in place then cover it with GS, or for a cheap but less effective version stick some penny coinage under there. I've been doing it for ages even for plastic models as they can be top heavy enough on their own.
Look, obviously metal isn't ideal, personally it's my least favourite of the various model materials to work with and I still have nightmares about GW's old plastic/metal hybrid kits, but in this specific instance it doesn't seem to be that big of an issue given how Mantic's skellies are put together, and at the end of the day expecting them to go from "we'll provide an army list for your WHF army" to "damn, GW have killed the whole model line, we must immediately launch a new plastic model range!" is a tad unreasonable. If metal means they can offer this stuff without first having to run six and a half kickstarter campaigns to fund the plastic tooling, I can live with it.
Smaller-scle gaming was also mentioned in the KoW seminar, and Ronnie said something like "When it comes to releasing small-scale models, our hearts say fantasy, our heads say sci-fi", meaning that while they'd love to make KoW minis at that scale, there's probably more of a market for Warpath at that scale.
With GW switching Epic to 8mm, Mantic would do well to go 6mm and adopt any old players who are unwilling to replace all their old models.
Bolognesus wrote: It does take some chutzpah to strike that tone and immediately complain the other is being antagonistic.
FFS, they'll still be annoyingly top-heavy when attached to the intended 20mm bases.
So weight your bases. If you want to do it properly, order Plusmodel lead wire and fix it in place then cover it with GS, or for a cheap but less effective version stick some penny coinage under there. I've been doing it for ages even for plastic models as they can be top heavy enough on their own.
Do you really think that's reasonable? If it comes down to that, I bet large sums of money most people just won't buy the Empire of Dust minis instead. Not to mention the fact that Mantic bases are solid, so any weights under them will make the minis stand out, literally, from the rest of the army.
Look, obviously metal isn't ideal, personally it's my least favourite of the various model materials to work with and I still have nightmares about GW's old plastic/metal hybrid kits, but in this specific instance it doesn't seem to be that big of an issue given how Mantic's skellies are put together, and at the end of the day expecting them to go from "we'll provide an army list for your WHF army" to "damn, GW have killed the whole model line, we must immediately launch a new plastic model range!" is a tad unreasonable. If metal means they can offer this stuff without first having to run six and a half kickstarter campaigns to fund the plastic tooling, I can live with it.
Except that isn't how it works. What will happen is that Mantic will release some poor, crappy models no one could like, and instead of concluding that crappy metal models don't sell, they will conclude that Empire of Dust models don't sell.
Bolognesus wrote: It does take some chutzpah to strike that tone and immediately complain the other is being antagonistic.
FFS, they'll still be annoyingly top-heavy when attached to the intended 20mm bases.
So weight your bases. If you want to do it properly, order Plusmodel lead wire and fix it in place then cover it with GS, or for a cheap but less effective version stick some penny coinage under there. I've been doing it for ages even for plastic models as they can be top heavy enough on their own.
Look, obviously metal isn't ideal, personally it's my least favourite of the various model materials to work with and I still have nightmares about GW's old plastic/metal hybrid kits, but in this specific instance it doesn't seem to be that big of an issue given how Mantic's skellies are put together, and at the end of the day expecting them to go from "we'll provide an army list for your WHF army" to "damn, GW have killed the whole model line, we must immediately launch a new plastic model range!" is a tad unreasonable. If metal means they can offer this stuff without first having to run six and a half kickstarter campaigns to fund the plastic tooling, I can live with it.
Yes. That's totally not a fething pain to do to a bunch of minis that, let's face it, aren't exactly sold to be appreciated as individual examples of modelling excellence, meaning you'll be doing it to eleventy metric fethtonnes of them. Grrrrrrrrreat.
I'll be sure to pass on that line, TYVM (aside from the fact that Mantic's metals and metal/plastic hybrids have proven time and again to utterly fail to compete on price, which is the one strong point they have. They're certainly 'nice enough', but the prices, damn... €27,50 for 10 infantry? I can get much better at those rates, thank you...).
I have some skeleton archers. They're hybrid metal and are fine, true scale skeletons aren't particularly weighty even in metal, and the attachment point is large enough for a strong bond.
At this point producing new armies on a regular basis is what Mantic want, and between Mantic infantry and Reaper Bones big stuff, it should be possible to put a nice looking army together at a good price.
I used to have a Tomb Kings army for warhammer so I'm quite interested in the release, prefer the skeletal legion approach to undead than the monster mash variant.
highlord tamburlaine wrote: Also, for Judge Doug- which Balrog model would you recommend? I can never have enough giant red & black demons it seems. The plastic LOTR one?
I've got all three released for LOTR - the current plastic one is quite nice (the other two metal ones are out of production). They give you both a plastic sword and whip on-sprue. Nicely detailed, clean cast - actually, some of my favorite GW plastic kits are the LOTR ones all released around 2011 or so: Balrog, Nazgul on Fell-Beast, Ent, and the Mordor/Isengard Troll combo kit.
Smaller-scle gaming was also mentioned in the KoW seminar, and Ronnie said something like "When it comes to releasing small-scale models, our hearts say fantasy, our heads say sci-fi", meaning that while they'd love to make KoW minis at that scale, there's probably more of a market for Warpath at that scale.
With GW switching Epic to 8mm, Mantic would do well to go 6mm and adopt any old players who are unwilling to replace all their old models.
Or, of course, just go 10mm and benefit from all the Dropzone Commander scenery and stuff.
Bolognesus wrote: It does take some chutzpah to strike that tone and immediately complain the other is being antagonistic.
FFS, they'll still be annoyingly top-heavy when attached to the intended 20mm bases.
So weight your bases. If you want to do it properly, order Plusmodel lead wire and fix it in place then cover it with GS, or for a cheap but less effective version stick some penny coinage under there. I've been doing it for ages even for plastic models as they can be top heavy enough on their own.
Do you really think that's reasonable? If it comes down to that, I bet large sums of money most people just won't buy the Empire of Dust minis instead. Not to mention the fact that Mantic bases are solid, so any weights under them will make the minis stand out, literally, from the rest of the army.
Then that's their problem, like I say I've been doing it for ages because the more "actiony" trend of recent plastic models, particularly characters, has made many of them top-heavy and prone to tipping - people face exactly the same choice there but nobody seemed to give a crap, until there's a chance for them to gak on Mantic.
Look, obviously metal isn't ideal, personally it's my least favourite of the various model materials to work with and I still have nightmares about GW's old plastic/metal hybrid kits, but in this specific instance it doesn't seem to be that big of an issue given how Mantic's skellies are put together, and at the end of the day expecting them to go from "we'll provide an army list for your WHF army" to "damn, GW have killed the whole model line, we must immediately launch a new plastic model range!" is a tad unreasonable. If metal means they can offer this stuff without first having to run six and a half kickstarter campaigns to fund the plastic tooling, I can live with it.
Except that isn't how it works. What will happen is that Mantic will release some poor, crappy models no one could like, and instead of concluding that crappy metal models don't sell, they will conclude that Empire of Dust models don't sell.
While you're prognosticating, how about next week's lottery numbers?
Smaller-scle gaming was also mentioned in the KoW seminar, and Ronnie said something like "When it comes to releasing small-scale models, our hearts say fantasy, our heads say sci-fi", meaning that while they'd love to make KoW minis at that scale, there's probably more of a market for Warpath at that scale.
With GW switching Epic to 8mm, Mantic would do well to go 6mm and adopt any old players who are unwilling to replace all their old models.
Or, of course, just go 10mm and benefit from all the Dropzone Commander scenery and stuff.
Citation needed.
If you want GW news, read GW news threads, don't get snarky with me.
In regards to the plastic/metal hybrid skellie archers - I have a couple of troops of their older hybrid archers - they stand with no problem on either the integral round base or the square base that they plug into.
The 'top heavy' description is a non issue.
Folks are still allowed to dislike them, of course, but the balance is fine.
For folks that use unit bases it would not even matter that much. (I have them on the square bases - I have plans to run The Mummy's Mask for Pathfinder - and skeletal archers seem like a safe bet for that.)
I have a bunch of the hybrid skeleton archers as well and honestly, of I hadn't multi based them yeah, they'd fall over if positioned on, say, the side of a hill.
Again though: the price of those hybrid units is what kills them. Mantic makes utterly acceptable models -at prices way below what those metal models will cost. At ~£20/10 models, no way.
Anyway, having built a full battalion of their undead, the legs come with the back half of the ribs attached with a hole in the middle. You can easily attach the front rib piece to it. And seeing how the feet are attached to a circular disc that fits inside the standard KoW square base, the only way it should be falling over is if you cut it off the round bit. Which becomes your problem. If it was attaching metal to the top of the spinal column piece, I'd say "hell no, Mantic you're nuts!!" But it isn't. It's meant to be properly seated. Would plastic be better? Yes. Does the metal have a good chance of flash issues? Yes. But attaching and staying upright shouldn't be an issue at all. Pick your argument better next time, if you'd like it taken seriously (and avoid the antagonistic approach when addressing somebody who just happens to disagree with you).
Antagonistic? The FFS was aimed at Mantic, not you. Thanks for trying the schoolteacher-style scolding - though you'll find that doesn't work on me.
Anyway, I've built enough models in my time including these skeletons and other hybrid kits to know that having a metal upper torso will not do good things to the balance of their skeletons, It'll move the centre of gravity too high to make them anything resembling stable.
Do you really think that's reasonable? If it comes down to that, I bet large sums of money most people just won't buy the Empire of Dust minis instead. Not to mention the fact that Mantic bases are solid, so any weights under them will make the minis stand out, literally, from the rest of the army.
Then that's their problem, like I say I've been doing it for ages because the more "actiony" trend of recent plastic models, particularly characters, has made many of them top-heavy and prone to tipping - people face exactly the same choice there but nobody seemed to give a crap, until there's a chance for them to gak on Mantic.
Funny to hear that from someone who took every opportunity to gak on GW for releasing a game that's not entirely to their own personal specifications? Anyway, if you read through the thread rather than cherry-picked the sentences that support your choice of argument to pick, you'll see that Doug, Bob and I all praised the design and only "shat" on Mantic when it was revealed that the plan is to make them metal-plastic hybrid kits.
As for weighting bases, I've got a (couple of) bags of washers that I use for various figures in different sizes. They work just fine with the GW-style bases that lack a slotta and have a recess underneath them. As Bob (and others?) noted, Mantic's bases are by and large solid, and as you may or may not know, the Mantic Skeleton legs feature a "plug" that slots into a large hole in the Mantic bases, so there's a significant difference between attempting to weight the two. Far from "exactly the same choice" if you look at what's involved and care about the final aesthetic look of the final models. As I said, I'm sure they'd be fine for those gamers that multibase/glues the models down to a regiment base
Not entirely sure it'd be worth the effort for marginal models, but have you considered fishing weights as part of the base? Especially in the case of an "Egyptian" style army you could work them in as rocks for the smaller ones, or urns for some of the larger varieties of sinkers. Again, these might not be the models to get to try it out on, but it'd be another tactic to help with some top-heavy models where the base doesn't do many favors and at least in the US fishing weights aren't outrageously expensive.
As I've seen mentioned here before, some of the smaller weights also work well with slotta-bases as they can tuck into the space a bit better.
Bolognesus wrote: I have a bunch of the hybrid skeleton archers as well and honestly, of I hadn't multi based them yeah, they'd fall over if positioned on, say, the side of a hill.
Again though: the price of those hybrid units is what kills them. Mantic makes utterly acceptable models -at prices way below what those metal models will cost. At ~£20/10 models, no way.
Since the side of hills are one of the places where I typically put my archers... I kind of have to disagree about them falling over, at least in my experience. (I castle up sometimes if the scenario permits - cav in the lead, sword and board next, then phalanxes, then archers on the sides of the hill, and a trio of catapults on top of the hill*. More cav and/or flyers for flanking.) It has been a non-issue for me. And the archers are not multi based - they serve double duty for both RPGs and KoW.
My phalanxes and some of my sword and board, on the other hand, are multibased. I highly recommend multibasing, but I don't have all that many skellie archers, so they each stand on their own.
The price argument is a lot harder to refute - and I would love to see complete plastic kits, or even just a HIP sprue of bits to convert the figures into archers. (And that is why the figures serve double duty... if I could afford another twenty archers, they would be multibased.)
The Auld Grump - who would never say no to having more affordable plastics.
* Depending on where we play there are two different styles of hills - one is shallow curves, that look pretty natural - there are figures that fall over on those hills, but the skellie archers haven't been those figures. maybe if they were facing uphill rather than down, but I would think that it would be the other way around.
The bases are not weighted, and are the standard KoW bases - sanded and flocked, with a few bits of gravel for looks.
Depending on how your hills are designed, your mileage may well vary.
The other set of hills is the one at our place, which are stepped rather than natural looking - and those sidestep the issue entirely.
Krinsath wrote: Not entirely sure it'd be worth the effort for marginal models, but have you considered fishing weights as part of the base? Especially in the case of an "Egyptian" style army you could work them in as rocks for the smaller ones, or urns for some of the larger varieties of sinkers. Again, these might not be the models to get to try it out on, but it'd be another tactic to help with some top-heavy models where the base doesn't do many favors and at least in the US fishing weights aren't outrageously expensive.
As I've seen mentioned here before, some of the smaller weights also work well with slotta-bases as they can tuck into the space a bit better.
I've got some lead fishing weights that I've cut up and then squashed with pliers to fit into the underside of the slotta for specific models. Hormagaunts come to mind. Then again, I only have about a dozen of them, and I really do like the models. Weighting the bases of Mantic's plastics is pretty much impossible anyway, unless you snip them off the disc and rebase them on GW-style bases. Or want bits of lead fishing weight snipped, glued down and painted as rocks.
Maccwar wrote: I magnetise the bases of all my miniatures as a matter of course which is a great way of sorting any stability issues.
For the Mantic bases with the flat bottoms I use strong magnetic tape and line the movement trays with "rubber steel" sheeting.
The lip on the movement tray hides the magnets so you don't have to worry about them being seen.
I like to have all my figures available for skirmish/board gaming, which is where the issues with top-heavy models (from any manufacturer) come in. If they're multibased or magnetised (I blu-tac my models to regimental bases for KoW) then there's obviously less of a problem.
Bolognesus wrote: It does take some chutzpah to strike that tone and immediately complain the other is being antagonistic.
FFS, they'll still be annoyingly top-heavy when attached to the intended 20mm bases.
So weight your bases. If you want to do it properly, order Plusmodel lead wire and fix it in place then cover it with GS, or for a cheap but less effective version stick some penny coinage under there. I've been doing it for ages even for plastic models as they can be top heavy enough on their own.
Do you really think that's reasonable? If it comes down to that, I bet large sums of money most people just won't buy the Empire of Dust minis instead. Not to mention the fact that Mantic bases are solid, so any weights under them will make the minis stand out, literally, from the rest of the army.
Then that's their problem, like I say I've been doing it for ages because the more "actiony" trend of recent plastic models, particularly characters, has made many of them top-heavy and prone to tipping - people face exactly the same choice there but nobody seemed to give a crap, until there's a chance for them to gak on Mantic.
No, it's Mantic's problem. And I think you are mistaken that people are okay weighting bases in general. Maybe the real long timers are cool with it, but I can tell you how many of the new customers--the people Mantic needs the most since the veterans already have GW armies--simply sell off or never buy models that require so much hassle for rank and file troops.
Considering how much Mantic's latest plastic minis improved their reputation, it's only reasonable to see such a big step backwards as...well, a big step backwards.
Look, obviously metal isn't ideal, personally it's my least favourite of the various model materials to work with and I still have nightmares about GW's old plastic/metal hybrid kits, but in this specific instance it doesn't seem to be that big of an issue given how Mantic's skellies are put together, and at the end of the day expecting them to go from "we'll provide an army list for your WHF army" to "damn, GW have killed the whole model line, we must immediately launch a new plastic model range!" is a tad unreasonable. If metal means they can offer this stuff without first having to run six and a half kickstarter campaigns to fund the plastic tooling, I can live with it.
Except that isn't how it works. What will happen is that Mantic will release some poor, crappy models no one could like, and instead of concluding that crappy metal models don't sell, they will conclude that Empire of Dust models don't sell.
While you're prognosticating, how about next week's lottery numbers?
Let me know when Mantic produce hard plastic skeleton archers or goblin spearmen and I'll be happy to share.
Really, it's not 1996, or even 2006. Plastic-and-metal hybrid troops and chunky, expensive metal elites are the kinds of short-sighted, pound foolish mistakes a company with either overmodest ambitions or nostalgia-enduced delusions of grandeur would release into the void of WHFB's passing. The kind of old hands fine with buying metal Tomb Kings knock-offs will be happy to tell you how much better and cheaper the metal Egyptian undead are on some one-man internet back-alley shop with a name like Obscuretisan, No Name Foundry, or Never-Gonna-Make-It-Big Studios. At least Mantic will sell Reaper minis on their site so their customers can buy a more desirable product.
If I was going to buy metal Egyptian fantasy minis, and I wanted to be sure of their quality, I'd place another order with Wargods before looking at Mantic. Unless there's another kickstarter.
I personally don't mind hybrids but I understand why people don't like them. I dunno, I've got models with plastic, metal, resin, putty.. etc.. but I don't think it's realistic to expect everyone to look at the hobby that way. I also have felt the sting of said top heavy models tipping only to watch pieces go flying.
Why oh why won't Mantic figure out a medium and make that work? It's pretty obvious that they are trying hard to cut costs on their end. It seems like the material is the thing they are determined to go after to do this. They've seen repeatedly how we react when they do put out a cheap material or cut corners on production. Why do they still feel this is an acceptable way to do business?
MLaw wrote: I personally don't mind hybrids but I understand why people don't like them. I dunno, I've got models with plastic, metal, resin, putty.. etc.. but I don't think it's realistic to expect everyone to look at the hobby that way. I also have felt the sting of said top heavy models tipping only to watch pieces go flying.
Why oh why won't Mantic figure out a medium and make that work? It's pretty obvious that they are trying hard to cut costs on their end. It seems like the material is the thing they are determined to go after to do this. They've seen repeatedly how we react when they do put out a cheap material or cut corners on production. Why do they still feel this is an acceptable way to do business?
They cover their ears and hope we all come to accept it? I dont know. Honestly I like KOW but use almost no mantic models. I really want to like them but besides the undead everytime I see something I go, oh I got to have it! Then realize something about it and go... "almost".
Let me know when Mantic produce hard plastic skeleton archers or goblin spearmen and I'll be happy to share.
Really, it's not 1996, or even 2006. Plastic-and-metal hybrid troops and chunky, expensive metal elites are the kinds of short-sighted, pound foolish mistakes a company with either overmodest ambitions or nostalgia-enduced delusions of grandeur would release into the void of WHFB's passing. The kind of old hands fine with buying metal Tomb Kings knock-offs will be happy to tell you how much better and cheaper the metal Egyptian undead are on some one-man internet back-alley shop with a name like Obscuretisan, No Name Foundry, or Never-Gonna-Make-It-Big Studios. At least Mantic will sell Reaper minis on their site so their customers can buy a more desirable product.
If I was going to buy metal Egyptian fantasy minis, and I wanted to be sure of their quality, I'd place another order with Wargods before looking at Mantic. Unless there's another kickstarter.
This times a bajillion gazillion. I am a huge Mantic fan and love every game they've put out, and own several huge armies - painted - full of Mantic minis. But I'm bewildered at this really dumb move. It's really, really dumb.
And Bob, you're not quite right on this one - "The kind of old hands fine with buying metal Tomb Kings knock-offs will be happy to tell you how much better and cheaper the metal Egyptian undead are on some one-man internet back-alley shop with a name like Obscuretisan, No Name Foundry, or Never-Gonna-Make-It-Big Studios. " - it's more like, "The kind of old hands fine with buying metal Tomb Kings knock-offs will bemoan Mantic's MSRP of the hybrid and metal kits, and instead buy far cheaper models from some one-man internet back-alley shop with a name like Obscuretisan, No Name Foundry, or Never-Gonna-Make-It-Big Studios."
Well, yes, they will buy the cheaper minis, but don't believe for a second that they won't come back here to tell you about it. Have you ever seen a KoW thread where miniatures came up as a topic that didn't evolve into a discussion of other companies' miniatures and where to buy them?
MLaw wrote: I personally don't mind hybrids but I understand why people don't like them. I dunno, I've got models with plastic, metal, resin, putty.. etc.. but I don't think it's realistic to expect everyone to look at the hobby that way. I also have felt the sting of said top heavy models tipping only to watch pieces go flying.
Why oh why won't Mantic figure out a medium and make that work? It's pretty obvious that they are trying hard to cut costs on their end. It seems like the material is the thing they are determined to go after to do this. They've seen repeatedly how we react when they do put out a cheap material or cut corners on production. Why do they still feel this is an acceptable way to do business?
Ronnie mentioned that they'll be moving to the new Dust tactics plastics across their ranges in future, specifically mentioning things like the KoW Large Infantry. They've finally found a PVC mix that they're happy with and people like.
The metal releases for KoW are a bit of a stopgap measure to get a lot of new models released to meet the demand for KoW.
Is that the same stuff they used for Dungeon Saga? I thought those minis came out nice. It must be tasty too, my dog ate off one of my dragon wings.. guess the tyrant of halpi will just have to fly around in circles.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Well, yes, they will buy the cheaper minis, but don't believe for a second that they won't come back here to tell you about it. Have you ever seen a KoW thread where miniatures came up as a topic that didn't evolve into a discussion of other companies' miniatures and where to buy them?
Haha, have you been to a GW N&R thread? The current LOTR/ME SBG N&R thread is "back in MY day the minis were cheaper! Now I can play _insert some other inferior game here_ for half the price!"
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Well, yes, they will buy the cheaper minis, but don't believe for a second that they won't come back here to tell you about it. Have you ever seen a KoW thread where miniatures came up as a topic that didn't evolve into a discussion of other companies' miniatures and where to buy them?
Do you not remember when Mantic was first starting and was trying to leech GW customers so they bent over backwards to let everyone know they would never hassle people over bringing miniatures from other manufacturers?
Heck, it wasn't even that long ago that Warpath/Deadzone HAD to be played like this because hardly any units had miniatures. I quite like some of Mantic's newer designs but they have enough that I don't like that I do look for alternatives.
I'm trying to convince my kids to give KoW a shot but they found my Warmaster stuff and only want to play that or Frostgrave atm :/
I'm hoping if I order some of the nicer of the Egyptian themed skeletons it'll bring them around. They like that type of design a lot.
Yeah, it's not really surprising that KOW discussions will debate the merits of different miniatures. The game has several army lists with no official figures and I'm not sure any of the army lists have an official figure for every entry. Talking about other company's figures is kind of an intrinsic part of the community.
It's a really nice consumer-friendly policy, but it does lead to some of Mantic's figures being questionable purchases. Like, almost all of their large monsters compared to the Reaper Bones equivalents.
scarletsquig wrote: Ronnie mentioned that they'll be moving to the new Dust tactics plastics across their ranges in future, specifically mentioning things like the KoW Large Infantry. They've finally found a PVC mix that they're happy with and people like.
The metal releases for KoW are a bit of a stopgap measure to get a lot of new models released to meet the demand for KoW.
I really hope that this isn't just for the new stuff and that they go back and do some of their recent large infantry releases in the new material. I would like to field lots of zombie trolls but they are quite expensive in metal.
I don't know anything about the production methods of the new Dust PVC as opposed to those of restic, but if it's possible to use the old molds with the new material then I think the should start doing the restic models in the new PVC as soon as possible.
I went back and assembled some old Deadzone models I've had in the pile alongside some of my Infestation kickstarter stuff, and the difference in working with the two materials was downright astounding.
I know Ronnie has wanted fantasy terrain forever, as a personal pet project, but he's been surprisingly candid and practical in saying that the Deadzone terrain did very little for them, and sold terribly beyond the KS.
Obviously we're getting not-Mordheim, and i'm even hopeful it'll go the route of the surprisingly clever fan-made campaign game someone made for KoW, but we'll just have to see.
That said, Mantic is 100% returning to supporting/developing their own IPs so anything which further expands Mantica, and adds value to their model-line is a proper business move.
It's like, everyone I show mine to, or game with them for it is all, "Oh, it's super awesome."
Do they ever pick it up in the shop? Nope.
I wonder if it's something to do with the design being too blocky or the like. - "Paintball field" is another phrase I hear a lot about the terrain some people make with it.
I think one reason I haven't bought more is the fact there are never enough connectors in a set to build what I want and the connectors are a premium .
It's like, everyone I show mine to, or game with them for it is all, "Oh, it's super awesome."
Do they ever pick it up in the shop? Nope.
I wonder if it's something to do with the design being too blocky or the like. - "Paintball field" is another phrase I hear a lot about the terrain some people make with it.
I think along the lines of "paintbal field" it's partly the fact that deadzone scenery usually looks kind of samey. In a world where there are so many options for terrain, a modular system is initially enticing, but not quite as notable as other single-use kits. It's also -while not overly expensive- not a great deal at retail prices.
As I've said elsewhere, the Deadzone sprues have been great for combining with my various terrain projects, but I've got little interest in making entire pieces of terrain with them. I split one of the adepticon packages with a a buddy a few years back, but it will be a while before I buy more.
I have them. They are ok for a board game, nothing special imho. Though some people seemed to go gah-gah over the DS plastics, I found them to be rather average.
I did a 180 on the Deadzone terrain. When I first saw it, I loved it and bought quite a lot of it. When I had built and painted it, I realised that to me it looked like expensive LEGO, not actual buildings. The connectors poking out, the cube aesthetic with nothing to break up the profile of the pieces... It just looks bad IMO, and doesn't really fit with any other terrain. I realise you could always make the excuse that it's perfect for representing prefab, dropped from orbit building material that's easy to put together quickly, but that doesn't help my suspension of disbelief. thats why I only went in for the accessories (pipes etc) in Deadzone 2, and will be making my own buildings to put them on.
Nostromodamus wrote: I have them. They are ok for a board game, nothing special imho. Though some people seemed to go gah-gah over the DS plastics, I found them to be rather average.
The detail is great, but they do still warp like crazy. The new plastic used for Deadzone (they switched supplier to the company that FFG uses for Dust Tactics) is much better, they've finally got it right.
With the battlezones terrain, it really depends on what you do with it, some builds look amazing, but that requires buying a lot of the different sets and quite a large spend. The connector system is closer to tehnolog platformer terrain, rather than GW's city of death kits (the best way to do modular terrain IMO since it doesn't involve visible connectors and requires you to glue rather than attempting a "build and unbuild approach").
They are needed for deadzone though, no-one else makes exact 3x3 cube terrain. Someone might give that a shot with the rise of 3d-printed terrain.
I'd say that fantasy terrain could be cool for the little things; fences, barrels, boxes, armoury bits, trader stall bits and maybe some corpses. There seems to be a good amount of fantasy buildings across price ranges. Scatter terrain seems mostly to be resin and expensive though.
The spoilered ghouls are cool, they stood out in the artwork for me, glad to see they made it into models!
That orcling horde is a fun model
As far as DZ goes one level irregular buildings work okay as long as they don't exceed 4x4 I find. Multilevel is a bit harder though. Buildings should align more or less but don't have to. It mattered more in the last edition.
The battlezones range is definitely aimed at beginners. Its pretty easy to get it up and going though.
Nostromodamus wrote: I have them. They are ok for a board game, nothing special imho. Though some people seemed to go gah-gah over the DS plastics, I found them to be rather average.
The detail is great, but they do still warp like crazy. The new plastic used for Deadzone (they switched supplier to the company that FFG uses for Dust Tactics) is much better, they've finally got it right.
With the battlezones terrain, it really depends on what you do with it, some builds look amazing, but that requires buying a lot of the different sets and quite a large spend. The connector system is closer to tehnolog platformer terrain, rather than GW's city of death kits (the best way to do modular terrain IMO since it doesn't involve visible connectors and requires you to glue rather than attempting a "build and unbuild approach").
They are needed for deadzone though, no-one else makes exact 3x3 cube terrain. Someone might give that a shot with the rise of 3d-printed terrain.
I have to admit - our local group has been pretty much ignoring the 'exact 3x3 cube terrain' - and have been using World Works PDFs instead - which comes with a choice of 1 inch, and 1.5 inch grids. the 1.5 inch grid works fine after a second grid is placed using a straight edge and a felt tip.
One of the builds in the group has been in use for Necromunda for ten years... which never ceases to amaze me - it is a house with children! (It is showing plenty of wear and tear, but is still in use.....)
The Auld Grump - I built that piece of terrain while suffering from a high fever... because it made sense to my fever addled brain to stay awake for forty hours, building a Necromunda board....
It's like, everyone I show mine to, or game with them for it is all, "Oh, it's super awesome."
Do they ever pick it up in the shop? Nope.
I don't think terrain is very high on most people's list. Many people would rather build their own (it's cheaper and/or they enjoy making it) or just use the stuff at the FLGS.
NobodyXY wrote:I'd say that fantasy terrain could be cool for the little things; fences, barrels, boxes, armoury bits, trader stall bits and maybe some corpses. There seems to be a good amount of fantasy buildings across price ranges. Scatter terrain seems mostly to be resin and expensive though.
This would be cool, I could use some of those for my builds. From a business point of view; such a product would appeal to more people, so yea.
I they've mentioned that they hope to have it out in late summer..
But no dates finalized, and it could still be delayed by printing/shipping issues etc.
EDIT: It's been a bit delayed. Latest prognosis has it releasing in September.
mattjgilbert wrote:THhe book will now be stand-alone. The full rules will be included along with the stuff already discussed. Alessio's company are doing the layout (I'm speaking to them this morning). Due to their schedules, it's now on the release schedule for September.
You can pre-order now from Mighty Ape in AUS (Note that prices arre in $AUS obviously).
I suspect prices might rise somewhat before release but if you pre-order at this price, you'll get it for that price.
The new Empire of Dust stuff looks good, but some pricing is now a little wacky. Why is it almost twice as much per Skeleton Archer for Mantic's Undead ones vs their Empire of Dust ones?
^^ Regular skellingtons come on a sprue and cost X, Dusty skellingtons are the same sprues plus metal conversion bits for each one, only stands to reason they'd cost more. Whether that justifies double or not I can't really say.
Army Painter have a new deal and product in partnership with Mantic
They said the boxes are going to be the same price as their Zombicide boxes, so $29.99 USD RRP. More armies are planned to follow if the first four sell, and I think they also should be looking at copying the smaller 4 paint boxes from Zombicide, but including one of the metal heroes they spin in house for a first painting project.
Yeah, 10 "normal" skeleton archers for 29.99 or 20 EoD skeleton archers for 34.99. Hopefully they'll repackage the "normal" skeleton archers into boxes of 20 at the same price as EoD archers.
NTRabbit wrote: ^^ Regular skellingtons come on a sprue and cost X, Dusty skellingtons are the same sprues plus metal conversion bits for each one, only stands to reason they'd cost more. Whether that justifies double or not I can't really say.
For Example, Undead Archer Troop cist 17.99 (10 Plastic/Metal Models), EoD Archer Regiment cost 19.99 (20 Plastic/Metal models)
Skeleton Regiments cost both 19.99 (undead and EoD)
I am glad that the EoD Minis are the same price, but it is strange that the old Archers are more expensive
I *LOVED* that about the old army painter/ mantic paint sets. A few paints, a few figures, a brush that would crap out on you eventually, all for a very relatively reasonable price.
Not that I needed anything in the box, but I loved getting those boxes. Still use them for transporting/ storing stuff.
I hate to take advantage... but Brexit'ing the purchase is definitely the way to go. Picked up some stuff to fill-out my Tomb Kings for AoS, and paying in pounds saved me about 25% over their US prices, even shipped.
Oh well, i'll take the karma hit since that same Brexit financial bust cost me 7% of most of my mutual funds, and other investments... *sigh*.
Yeah, I'm not complaining about metal/plastic hybrid skeletons being more expensive than plastic ones, I'm questioning that one set of hybrid skeletons is about twice as expensive per figure than than another hybrid set.
4 horde sized trays (10x4 20mm or 25mm square bases respectively for 200mm x 80mm or 250mm x 100mm) for £10 feels like a pretty competitive price.
Rather neat design too with one side being flat (but a little textured) for permanent unitbasing, and the other, if I understand correctly, having small walls allowing to use as moving trays for intividually based models. The trays can be broken off into two or four smaller trays.
There is one problem I see with the double sided design though. Either the numbers we're given is for the outer measurement of the tray, which would mean that you can't fit 10x4 individual bases on the trays. Or the measurements given is for the inner measurements of the trays, meaning that if you use the flat side to multibase a unit, it will be slightly larger than what the KoW rules actually specify.
It's not like anyone really care if your bases are slightly larger so I suppose the better option would be the second one. Having the bases be too small would make them pretty much unusable as moving trays and would cause many a customer to be very disappointed with their purchase.
Azazelx wrote: That's normal for unit trays anyway, and noted in many wargame rulesets including the KoW rulebook (p206)
Unit trays are necessarily a bit larger than the bases placed in them, and you can either count the lip as part of the unit's footprint or ignore it (as referenced on the aforementioned p. 206)
There is a difference though when a multibase is too large since you don't have the option to ignore the extra size.
Like I said, it's not a huge problem by any measure (or perhaps not a problem at all), but it does feel a bit weird to have a company sell bases that by the strict letter of their own rules (which I admittedly expect no-one to follow in a draconian fashion in this situation) are not allowed to be used for their expressed purpose. (only Heroes, Monsters and War machines are allowed to be mounted on larger bases than what their entry designate).
Azazelx wrote: I think you're overdoing it - as I said and you've acknowledged - page 206 covers it.
To be nitpicky, page 206 does not cover this situation, since that deals with individual bases in moving trays, where you can choose to count the tray as part of the unit footprint or not. This (if you choose to use that side of the bases) is a unitbase that's a bit too large and you have no choice in counting the mm's added by the lip or not.
It's similar to (but even less problematic than) someone using 3 Juggenaughts on 50x75mm bases as a large cavalry regiment, which by the rules should have a footprint of 150x50mm , and not 150x75mm
Well, to put it another way, I don't see it as an issue and apparently nor does Mantic. You're welcome to be concerned about it, though I think you're going to be in a very small group of people there.
Azazelx wrote: Well, to put it another way, I don't see it as an issue and apparently nor does Mantic. You're welcome to be concerned about it, though I think you're going to be in a very small group of people there.
I might have given off the impression. I'm not really concerned or see it as an issue. I'll quite happily use these as (slightly too large) unit-bases.
Then again, I wouldn't have a problem with someone using large cavalry models they've based on 75mm deep bases, but I've seen discussions where people have opposed that. And to be frank, it is against the letter of the rules to have too large bases outside where it's specifically allowed.
Since there isn't really any advantage to be gained though, I don't foresee it being a problem.
Mantic has always been ok with the footprint erring on the side of large, because its almost always to the detriment of the person using larger bases. Yes it buffs inspiring, but more often than not it just makes you much easier to get flank-charged.
Given the amount of freedom to creating army lists and the rulebook promoting imaginative modelling, I think the base footprint guidelines are more strictly for tournament play where things are more restrictive. As for casual play, who would honestly care if an impressive monster miniature could never squeeze onto a 50mm base.
On a different note, is there any rumblings on what is on the horizon for KoW beyond the army list supplement? Or is the kickstarters for Deadzone/Warpath and Walking Dead gonna hog the rest of the year.
On a different note, is there any rumblings on what is on the horizon for KoW beyond the army list supplement? Or is the kickstarters for Deadzone/Warpath and Walking Dead gonna hog the rest of the year.
Speculation: Well, Deadzone is finished and things will be leaking out at retail. Warpath looks like they've done 'enough' to warrant finalising it all despite a lot of apprehension on backers' behalf on Firefight. It seemed a lot of Walking Dead was done before they got the license.
Dreadball KS is live now.
I hope Mantic spend the rest of this year making some non-KS figures for KoW to surprise us with. AoS seems to be finally catching on now and KoW needs a boost again to keep it at bay. I also hope that even if Warpath is done, the Firefight rules are worked on enough to get a fab game - even if it comes out late with the GCPS models.
NTRabbit wrote: ^^ Regular skellingtons come on a sprue and cost X, Dusty skellingtons are the same sprues plus metal conversion bits for each one, only stands to reason they'd cost more. Whether that justifies double or not I can't really say.
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Found the undead stuff Mantic do to be the best (the rest of the KoW stuff like the elven and dwarf infantry is quite mediocre imo) in terms of how they all look based up in large blocks of infantry although they tend to be a little skinny and tall for my liking. Not sure the mixing and matching of plastic and metal bits for infantry troops really appeals to me to be honest. Some of the Empire of Dust stuff does look lovely with that paint job and in large units but would want to see some decent close ups of the individual models before being convinced.
I agree that KoW could use a boost. It's amazing what a window of opportunity they've had, but I'm not sure they've maximized it. I know the rules have sold like crazy, but I'd love to support them more. I was actually expecting a KoW Kickstarter for some more models / armies... and instead we've got things in completely different genres.
I know these other campaigns have likely been in development, but Mantic is small enough that they should be more agile. I'm all in on KoW, but AoS is picking up steam and they need to seize their chance while it's still there to get very established.
There's more stuff coming. In terms of models I don't know how and when (not that I could say if I did, but anyway) but there's a few bits and pieces that haven't been seen in public for sure.
There's multiple supplements in the works for KoW, first one (not news obviously) Historical in autumn and we've got briefs for 3 more books, each of which brings something different to the table.
The current kickstarter should be that KoW Mordheim/Deadzone game that's supposed to fund more plastic troop sprues for all the armies. NOT Dreadball Kickstarter 187: Ball Dreadier.
AoS just put out some sort of year-late points system. Mantic needs to keep striking this iron, and occasionally put it in the forge to keep it hot.
On a different note, is there any rumblings on what is on the horizon for KoW beyond the army list supplement? Or is the kickstarters for Deadzone/Warpath and Walking Dead gonna hog the rest of the year.
Speculation: Well, Deadzone is finished and things will be leaking out at retail. Warpath looks like they've done 'enough' to warrant finalising it all despite a lot of apprehension on backers' behalf on Firefight. It seemed a lot of Walking Dead was done before they got the license.
Dreadball KS is live now.
I hope Mantic spend the rest of this year making some non-KS figures for KoW to surprise us with. AoS seems to be finally catching on now and KoW needs a boost again to keep it at bay. I also hope that even if Warpath is done, the Firefight rules are worked on enough to get a fab game - even if it comes out late with the GCPS models.
I had meant that the Walking Dead/Warpath kickstarters hitting retail, but Baragash has said there's more KoW stuff on the way.
I do agree that Mantic should strengthen KoW with releases now AoS has found its footing.
Well, to be fair, they are about to release the T̶o̶m̶b̶ ̶K̶i̶n̶g̶s̶ Empire of Dust stuff which is a good example of both agility and striking while the Iron is hot when you take into account lead times on production. (And better yet, it's not kickstarted!)
Yeah, I mean this time last year, or just after the KS whenever that was, people were begging them to never run a KoWKS ever again, and just do a regular retail release schedule.
Mantic are going to keep running Kickstarters I think and if they are, one should be for KoW! I think this is a once in a lifetime kind of opportunity for them, and they should be throwing everything they've got at it (including a KS if it makes sense).
RiTides wrote: Mantic are going to keep running Kickstarters I think and if they are, one should be for KoW! I think this is a once in a lifetime kind of opportunity for them, and they should be throwing everything they've got at it (including a KS if it makes sense).
I'd like to agree, but they already had a great 'Once in a lifetime' opportunity with Warpath now that 40K is a mess and well...
I guess there could be a Twice in a Lifetime opportunity here though!
Polonius wrote: The opportunity frittered away with Warpath is really disappointing.
Kings of war is still a growing game, it just needs a steady stream of models, or nobody is going to be interested in Mantic's armies.
There has been a steady stream of models though, there's been a bunch of non-KS stuff come out since 2nd launched, plus the entire Empire of Dust range, plus extra optional books like the WHFB refugee armies, the DS crossover campaigns, and some more being worked on. Proceeding pretty much as it ought to.
Indeed, there has been a kinda steady stream of models IMO.
I think many of the non-KS minis for KoW that Mantic has put out recently has flown a bit under the radar for many.
In addition to the recent empire of dust line there's been Zombie Trolls, Wights (monstrous infantry sized), Centaurs, Elementals, Treekin, a bunch of heroes etc.
I believe the increased attention that a KS campaign can bring is actually a significant part of the reason why Mantic is so reliant on using them.
I would not mind seeing a small Kickstarter with each expansion book for Kings of War, to, well, Kickstart any new armies in the books.
I love Uncharted Empires - and having the armies available for the Trident Realms and Night Stalkers could have brought in some customers. (I am facing a Twilight Kin/Night Stalkers army tonight - I have high hoped that I will lose.)
Night stalkers do seem really cool and popular, plus it is their own army and not an inherited one, so they can go nuts with it! I'd love to see some models for it, especially as they aren't many available elsewhere.
I've noticed that since we made a dedicated Kings of War section, we actually have less activity here. I'm wondering why that is and if there's anything we can do to attract more KoW posters?
Right now, it feels like we have a lot of players on Dakka, but they're not reading and posting here.
Share your thoughts and we'll see what the best course of action is!
That's why I'm asking - I was all for a KoW forum, but if I was wrong and it's better to have it be mixed Mantic we could change course!
However, I'm not sure that's it alone because the Warmachine section is very bare and there's absolutely tons to talk about for it with the new edition, and it still has its own section just like before (same might be said of MEdge but to a lesser scale, of course).
My thinking was that perhaps we should be driving traffic to these areas somehow, as for KoW we probably have one of the biggest playerbases on the net, but they're not reading/posting.
Any thoughts and ideas greatly appreciated - let's make things awesome so folks want to use it . Whatever that looks like!
Judging from the Kings of War facebook groups, a lot of the prominent posters there have negative feelings towards Dakka due to perceived anti-Mantic bias (Dakka is haven to anti-xyz bias, no matter what xyz is of course). Perhaps some sort of outreach to them by having a Dakka sponsored contest of some sort?
I wonder if a fair few of the contributors were people who were involved in a variety of mantic games, but not in a huge way,
so they'd pop in an post on something specific (eg why forge fathers are so easy to kill in dreadball when dwarves are meant to be tough), but then casually read/post on a number of other threads in the mantic section at the same time,
now it's all fragmented (or dedicated depending on you point of view) they just drop their post in the appropriate section and leave hence the lower overall usage
I also suspect a lot of the KoW people are still effectively WHFB refugees, so the supplementary chat about armies, world building, gods etc that would otherwise generate chat is still going on in the GW sections as that's what they're actually playing (just using KoW rules).
the few cases where Mantic has something different that people might want to chat about are either where they've gone most wrong in model quality (eg basilleans) or where it's just beginning to happen and there's not a huge amount to go on (eg nightstalkers)
I wonder if you might want to consider trying to pull in the painting/modelling stuff for KoW into the forum as that's something that there should be interest in and having their stuff in a slower moving section that the main painting section mght help pull in more viewers who would then stay and post
I honestly never scroll that far down on the page, so I forget that it's even there. Most things past the painting forums don't get seen by me.
I also mainly use the local FB group along with the main KoWFB page. It already has a community with members of Mantic involved in it, who reply and post fairly regularly.
Thank you for the great ideas and thoughts guys - keep them coming! I really want to make this section awesome and more usable, and the very best way is to hear specifically what you want / what isn't working for you as it is. Cheers for the input so far
If a game system or company has its own sub forum should news and tumors pertaining to them go in their respective sub forum? I'm not on Facebook so I use Dakka as a news source so the KoW thread I'm most interested in isn't in the sub forum. I'll check the sub forum to see updates to the show off your army thread or if there is a rules or list thread that looks interesting or involves an army I'm building but that's driven more by happenstance.
RiTides wrote: That's why I'm asking - I was all for a KoW forum, but if I was wrong and it's better to have it be mixed Mantic we could change course!
However, I'm not sure that's it alone because the Warmachine section is very bare and there's absolutely tons to talk about for it with the new edition, and it still has its own section just like before (same might be said of MEdge but to a lesser scale, of course).
My thinking was that perhaps we should be driving traffic to these areas somehow, as for KoW we probably have one of the biggest playerbases on the net, but they're not reading/posting.
Any thoughts and ideas greatly appreciated - let's make things awesome so folks want to use it . Whatever that looks like!
Besides a combined Mantic subforum, maybe you can create a sticky thread with links to ongoing discussions or insert links in News and Rumors threads (opening post or during lively conversations) that point to relevant related threads. Not so much "take this conversation elsewhere" but maybe more like "as you can see here, Mantic has an issue with rules churn/marketing/art direction/lizard people." I'm not saying to truncate the conversations about new releases, rules or Kickstarter, but with Mantic a lot of old stuff comes up again and again in the News threads that could form the kernel of lively threads in their own right.
Also, most of the current Mantic discussion tends to go on in their 2 (or is it 3?) N&R threads, since they're so heavily KS-dominated.
I think a more generic Mantic Games forum as we had in the past would be better than the status quo. Breaking off WHFB and 9th Age into their own forum separate from AoS seems to have worked, but notsomuch the Mantic stuff being scattered to the winds between a whole lot of different forums..
Another vote for recombining the Mantic forums. Together, they had enough traffic to be interesting. Seperately, you just lose too much traffic. Plus, theres all the overlap between games. Dreadball, Deadzone, Warpath, Firefight, they can all overlap. Same with DS and KoW, though to a lesser degree. Having them all together means its way less of an issue deciding where to post stuff. As it is, where would I put a campaign spanning multiple systems, for instance? Or just generic questions about the models? Its not a huge obstacle, but you dont need huge obstacles to prevent posts - quite small ones will do. :/
Also, most of the current Mantic discussion tends to go on in their 2 (or is it 3?) N&R threads, since they're so heavily KS-dominated.
I think a more generic Mantic Games forum as we had in the past would be better than the status quo. Breaking off WHFB and 9th Age into their own forum separate from AoS seems to have worked, but notsomuch the Mantic stuff being scattered to the winds between a whole lot of different forums..
I do find the KS angle to be very true, as from a basic viewpoint, once Mantic starts a new Kicksterter, all the other games basically have very little to no information till they are remembered again by Mantic.
I liked the single Mantic area; I could contribute to whichever threads I liked. Now all I see is KoW and nothing else, and I've kinda just not bothered; some days I wanna discuss KoW, some days I want to discuss DZ, other days WP. But having them altogether helped, fragmented feels disjointed. I didn't like the change. And it didn't grow on me.
Yeah, I ignored Mantic discussion on Dakka after the subforum split, I now just look at facebook more often (and I hate having to use facebook) since the official forums are largely dead due to people having to cache refresh/clear cookies and all brower settings to view it.
The thing is, the old forum worked because there's a lot of people that play more than one Mantic game once they get started, the minis are affordable and the games are very easy to get into so there's a lot of crossover.
I'f be in favour of a partial remerge - a Mantic header, split into a Fantasy game forum, and a Scifi game forum, much like the two threads here in N&R. That way the topics are still split for those who can't handle space dwarves mingling with their real dwarves, but maybe it makes it just a tiny bit easier to find and get involved in discussion.
In actual news, at GenCon Ronnie confirmed that KoW skirmish is officially a thing, and that it will be skipping KS entirely, going straight to retail with full book and mini support.
"Dungeon Saga in Space" will be a Kickstarter, but KoW scirmish will go direct to retail according to Ronnies Interview with BoW at Gencon. I suspect that's what's causing a bit of confusion.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm wondering if the reason thr skirmish game is avoiding KS is because they're using the Starsteuck City rules Austin from Ironwatch has beeen developing for the past few years.
I do like seeing stuff released for the Trident realm. One of the two factions from uncharted empires not directly connected to a existing GW miniature line. These are the factions who need stuff the most as there isn't many clear alternatives.
[EDIT- I'm reminded the Serpent riders can of course be used in the Forces of nature list as well.]
Set to retail for $35 for a pack of three, which feels like a pricepoint I can live with. The'll be in metal, so I hope they have been careful in designing them with the weight in mind, or these models might fall apart all to easily.
How is the mouldline removal on the new boardgame plastic/resin compared to the earlier restic models?
If they can get compatible detail and less mouldline hassle I think it would be preferable to metal. Especially for large models like these.
If the new boardgame material is similar to the restic that say, the Mantic Werewolves are made of, I'd rather real with metal and the troubles that comes with that.
overtyrant wrote: Why metal? Mantics metal is pants! This would be perfect for their new boardgame material.
Because, when another employee has the brilliant idea you need a way to torpedo it so that he doesn't look too successful in Ronnie's eyes.
"Fantasy Egyptians? Wow, Steve, that really taps the market. I know just how to help it along..."
"...Joyce, I want this cast in a metal so heavy it will sink even the most buoyant heart. I want minis so lifeless and dull they are only fit to pay Charon's toll."
Compel wrote: Ironically the problem with Mantics metals isn't that they're heavy is that they're so soft and squishy
I fell in love with the phrase.
They also have a lot of flash for metal minis, at least the last time I bought any.
Edit: If Mantic is reading this then it really isn't fair for me to leave unspoken that metal is a medium of the past that appeals only to an ever shrinking segment of an already small market.
NTRabbit wrote: In actual news, at GenCon Ronnie confirmed that KoW skirmish is officially a thing, and that it will be skipping KS entirely, going straight to retail with full book and mini support.
That is awesome!!
Also, did those of you in the KoW Fanatics Facebook group see this posted earlier today? Ronnie is asking what folks would like to see for KoW in the next 12 - 18 months!
Ronnie Renton wrote:So, thinking of what cool things we should do with KOW in the next 12 months!
I have a few ideas (starting with historical in September and more new armies of course!!!) But I'm currently planning the next 18 months and i want to really do the things the community wants...so let me know...
There's already a "skirmish" game for Kings of war. It's called the Star-struck City, and it is available for free. Go to the Kings of War forum on this site, and you will find it. It is a perfect combination of Kings of War and Mordheim. I have played more than a dozen games, and I really like it. The rules can also be purchased in a hardback book. I highly recommend it. Expansions are already in the works.
The name Star-struck City conjures up images of Elvis or The Beatles (or One Direction or whoever) landing there and all the local teenage girls going wild, rather than being the setting for a fantasy skirmish game.
I've read the rules for Star Struck City and they seem great. It really is a solid combo of Mordheim and KoW. Very well done.
I'd still prefer a deadzone-style skirmish game so I can trick my boardgame friends into playing. Skirmish games are the best for them due to the low model count.
R&J? Romeo and Juliet? That would be a new twist on skirmish wargames. Hold off the rival warband and make sure your star-crossed lovers meet to win VPs.
R&J? Romeo and Juliet? That would be a new twist on skirmish wargames. Hold off the rival warband and make sure your star-crossed lovers meet to win VPs.
I imagine you could probably have a fairly decent narrative skirmish campaign focusing on the Montagues and Capulets. And it's not like a bunch of nerds yelling "do you bite your thumb at me, sir?" will be particularly different to normal.
I'm concerned that the fantasy skirmish/sci fi dungeon Saga games will be really lazy copy/paste jobs with only the fluff changed. Can't really see unique minis for the sci fi one now- I have a feeling the nice new Dead zone Infestation stuff will feature heavily.
When are the Nameless going to be better represented, that's what I want to know. There was a tantalising bit of fluff about them having this whole huge confederation beyond the stars,
then nothing
JoshInJapan wrote: I realize that I am in the minority here, but I actually prefer the softer alloy that Mantic uses, because it is so much easier to drill-and-pin.
I am in the same small minority - I very much like their Centaurs, as an example. (I play neither Herd nor Forces of Nature - I use them for a Pathfinder game.)
I kind of suspect that Mantic may end up using those serpents as the basis for their EoD Serpent Surfers. (Excuse me... Wyrm Riders.... the Wipe Out theme song is purely coincidental....)
Innnteresting... I may ask my group if they want to incorporate some of those rules changes into our regular KoW game. (Hills as Difficult Terrain and Cover(n) in particular.)
Innnteresting... I may ask my group if they want to incorporate some of those rules changes into our regular KoW game. (Hills as Difficult Terrain and Cover(n) in particular.)
The Auld Grump
Yeah I like those new special rules too and they should work well in KoW 2.0 too. Definitely gonna get the book but if it's as in demand as it sounds I may end up waiting for a reprint run. Is Mantic going the route of replacing magic items with upgrades? Like instead of buying a Jar of Winds for my archers I upgrade them to Veterans or whatever nomenclature is attached to the unit modifying stat. I hope the Roman list has access to a good amount of war machines, batteries of scorpions and ballistae that embraces the combined arms ability.
The pictures linked by JudgeDoug show the Roman list, and it looks like most armies around built around a "master list," which includes small bolt throwers and catapults, with the romans having access to both.
In many ways, I think that's an elegant solution, in that it allows units like archers, spearmen, and warriors (I'm guessing swordsmen type) to have one stat line, while the more exotic units are defined. Further, the romans at least have special rules which modify the master list units.
In the end, there really isn't that big a difference between the Pharoah's bronze age spearmen, the spearman of Darius, later Imperial auxiliaries, or even the sheildwalls of the early middle ages, aside form progressively (but uniformly) improved kit.
Polonius wrote: The pictures linked by JudgeDoug show the Roman list, and it looks like most armies around built around a "master list," which includes small bolt throwers and catapults, with the romans having access to both.
In many ways, I think that's an elegant solution, in that it allows units like archers, spearmen, and warriors (I'm guessing swordsmen type) to have one stat line, while the more exotic units are defined. Further, the romans at least have special rules which modify the master list units.
In the end, there really isn't that big a difference between the Pharoah's bronze age spearmen, the spearman of Darius, later Imperial auxiliaries, or even the sheildwalls of the early middle ages, aside form progressively (but uniformly) improved kit.
You're right, I was browsing on my phone and checked the Roman units quickly without reading through the Special Rules text. I agree with your points about army list construction and the relative equality of units spanning time periods. I'm looking forward to getting all those additional army building options for reconfiguring some KoW builds and grabbing some historical kits to add to the mix. The more variety of armies and army construction available the easier it is to get people interested in the game and find opponents.
They look like an absolute nightmare to work with! Top heavy and they look like they will break as well!! Kits like this are a BAD idea so I suppose that's why Mantic have done it!
Innnteresting... I may ask my group if they want to incorporate some of those rules changes into our regular KoW game. (Hills as Difficult Terrain and Cover(n) in particular.)
The Auld Grump
Yeah I like those new special rules too and they should work well in KoW 2.0 too. Definitely gonna get the book but if it's as in demand as it sounds I may end up waiting for a reprint run. Is Mantic going the route of replacing magic items with upgrades? Like instead of buying a Jar of Winds for my archers I upgrade them to Veterans or whatever nomenclature is attached to the unit modifying stat. I hope the Roman list has access to a good amount of war machines, batteries of scorpions and ballistae that embraces the combined arms ability.
overtyrant wrote: They look like an absolute nightmare to work with! Top heavy and they look like they will break as well!! Kits like this are a BAD idea so I suppose that's why Mantic have done it!
The only one that was top heavy for me was the banner bearer. As to the fitting part, the torso connection usually has a little flash on the inside of the cavity. You also need to file the plastic torso connection down on some of them.
Shhh... Ben the photographer left his computer open so we managed to pinch this picture of the upcoming Naiad Wyrmriders. Slithering your way next month!
I dunno, for merfolk riding giant snakes I'm not sure how many options are out there, at least in unit sized varieties. Those are pretty nice sculpts. Nothing amazing, but they look sharp.
I'm with you there. They do look decent, though. I imagine that they'll be in metal since Mantic went with "no more restic... ever" after the backlash they received a few years ago from poor quality restic for everything.
Which is a shame since it's actually a decent material for some models, and when the quality control is up to par. Their pre-KS1 era undead cavalry seemed quite solid, and even the Ogres, Stone Golems, Werewolves and a few other things were decent. The mould lines on those and especially the more detailed models (including the ogres) and pain in cleaning them is where it all started to fall down, just getting worse with smaller and multipart models with increasing numbers of fiddly bits.
To me they look competent overall, but the serpents look a bit 90s-quality and ultimately 'meh'. The cartoony paint job certainly doesn't help, though.
Azazelx wrote: I'm with you there. They do look decent, though. I imagine that they'll be in metal since Mantic went with "no more restic... ever" after the backlash they received a few years ago from poor quality restic for everything.
Which is a shame since it's actually a decent material for some models, and when the quality control is up to par. Their pre-KS1 era undead cavalry seemed quite solid, and even the Ogres, Stone Golems, Werewolves and a few other things were decent. The mould lines on those and especially the more detailed models (including the ogres) and pain in cleaning them is where it all started to fall down, just getting worse with smaller and multipart models with increasing numbers of fiddly bits.
Yeah, IMO restic is great for monstrous infantry and similar but terrible for infantry.
Recently we announced Kings of War Historical – and the response has been amazing. While it has somewhat of a “Hollywood” approach to historical accuracy, we think you’ll get some terrific games played using the rules. I expect to see battle reports of both recreations of epic battles of old – and some of those scraps we have always asked over beer like “who’d win in a battle between the Romans and an army of the undead”? The book is primarily a way to fight historical clashes, but we felt it would be missing something without a little ‘mythical’ fun in there.
Stepping back, it is fantastic to see Kings of War continuing to grow around the world; it seems to have taken deep hold in the USA and Australian tournament scenes for mass battle fantasy gaming, and continues to grow rapidly in the UK and Europe too. There are more new people trying it out and then joining the ranks of KoW than ever before, and new releases – both new armies and gap filling in the range – are happening all the time.
Earth Elementals
However, every now and then we need something epic that galvanises us all into action – a reason to start that new army, finish off the units we have had on our painting table for months or pick up those regiments that will finally help us turn the tide in battle! That spur into action might be a tournament, a global campaign or just a new release for the army we have.
Over the past few weeks I have been on Facebook, looking at forums and talking to players at shows about what Kings of War gamers want (and don’t want) to see in the years ahead. What I’m hearing above all else is that there is a demand for more of…well… more of everything really! But pressing a little deeper there were a few stand out messages: at the top of the print list are organised global campaigns, rules for sieges, skirmish rules, lots more fluff and perhaps some multiplayer battle options.
Miniatures-wise there was demand to fill out the gaps in existing armies, get some new armies underway (but again just a few cool ones!) and a few new units – perhaps tied in with a “General’s Compendium” type book.
Naiad Wyrmriders
So, that’s what we are going to do!
Next month we have some great unit fillers (the Naiad Wyrmriders are seriously tempting me to a nature army… and judging by the reaction on Facebook, it looks like a lot of you agree) and then in 2017 we’ll be releasing a full Trident Realms army! And who knows… the Salamanders might be leaving their islands later in the year too.
We will also get a Tournament pack out – working with all the major tournament organisers from around the world to make sure it’s perfect. It’ll have a few ‘special’ rules for the year (entirely optional) plus the latest FAQs and some words of wisdom from the KoW Rules Committee.
However, the most exciting news is that from January you’re going to have to start building your armies because in summer we will be running a massive global campaign, with some help from our friends over at Beasts of War. The campaign will coincide with the relaunch of the Basilean army (with all new plastic Men at Arms… you kept asking, so we’ve made sure we listened) as they tackle a huge invasion from the Abyss. We will keep track of the results and the games you play will shape the world of Mantica. Not cataclysmic effects though – I mean, we won’t end the world or anything
Recently we announced Kings of War Historical – and the response has been amazing. While it has somewhat of a “Hollywood” approach to historical accuracy, we think you’ll get some terrific games played using the rules. I expect to see battle reports of both recreations of epic battles of old – and some of those scraps we have always asked over beer like “who’d win in a battle between the Romans and an army of the undead”? The book is primarily a way to fight historical clashes, but we felt it would be missing something without a little ‘mythical’ fun in there.
Stepping back, it is fantastic to see Kings of War continuing to grow around the world; it seems to have taken deep hold in the USA and Australian tournament scenes for mass battle fantasy gaming, and continues to grow rapidly in the UK and Europe too. There are more new people trying it out and then joining the ranks of KoW than ever before, and new releases – both new armies and gap filling in the range – are happening all the time.
Earth Elementals
However, every now and then we need something epic that galvanises us all into action – a reason to start that new army, finish off the units we have had on our painting table for months or pick up those regiments that will finally help us turn the tide in battle! That spur into action might be a tournament, a global campaign or just a new release for the army we have.
Over the past few weeks I have been on Facebook, looking at forums and talking to players at shows about what Kings of War gamers want (and don’t want) to see in the years ahead. What I’m hearing above all else is that there is a demand for more of…well… more of everything really! But pressing a little deeper there were a few stand out messages: at the top of the print list are organised global campaigns, rules for sieges, skirmish rules, lots more fluff and perhaps some multiplayer battle options.
Miniatures-wise there was demand to fill out the gaps in existing armies, get some new armies underway (but again just a few cool ones!) and a few new units – perhaps tied in with a “General’s Compendium” type book.
Naiad Wyrmriders
So, that’s what we are going to do!
Next month we have some great unit fillers (the Naiad Wyrmriders are seriously tempting me to a nature army… and judging by the reaction on Facebook, it looks like a lot of you agree) and then in 2017 we’ll be releasing a full Trident Realms army! And who knows… the Salamanders might be leaving their islands later in the year too.
We will also get a Tournament pack out – working with all the major tournament organisers from around the world to make sure it’s perfect. It’ll have a few ‘special’ rules for the year (entirely optional) plus the latest FAQs and some words of wisdom from the KoW Rules Committee.
However, the most exciting news is that from January you’re going to have to start building your armies because in summer we will be running a massive global campaign, with some help from our friends over at Beasts of War. The campaign will coincide with the relaunch of the Basilean army (with all new plastic Men at Arms… you kept asking, so we’ve made sure we listened) as they tackle a huge invasion from the Abyss. We will keep track of the results and the games you play will shape the world of Mantica. Not cataclysmic effects though – I mean, we won’t end the world or anything
- in 2017 we’ll be releasing a full Trident Realms army!
- We will also get a Tournament pack out
- in summer we will be running a massive global campaign, with some help from our friends over at Beasts of War.
- The campaign will coincide with the relaunch of the Basilean army (with all new plastic Men at Arms…
- But the best thing is that all of this will be done direct to retail.
I like it. I like it a lot! Especially news of new Basileans. They're the Mantic-original human army and the models have largely been an embarrassment if we're honest. It would really help improve Mantic image as a miniature company if they get them right this time.
Automatically Appended Next Post: By the way, In the picture of the worm riders I noticed this guy in the background fighting a naiad hero on the bridge:
A spoiler of an upcoming mantic undead hero, or a model from Reaper or somesuch?
I'm on board for new plastic Basilians. And if the old sprues end up selling for pennies on the dollar, I'll be happy to spend my pennies.
The global campaign sounds pretty exciting. I hope they have some kind of novel or BL-style in-universe flavor book planned. And those Dungeon Saga adventure books in paper, even if they are costly POD versions. Wow, I'm starting to get excited about Mantic again. Wonder when the other shoe drops.
Automatically Appended Next Post: By the way, In the picture of the worm riders I noticed this guy in the background fighting a naiad hero on the bridge:
A spoiler of an upcoming mantic undead hero, or a model from Reaper or somesuch?
That is an event exclusive necromancer given out at European conventions
BobtheInquisitor wrote:I'm on board for new plastic Basilians. And if the old sprues end up selling for pennies on the dollar, I'll be happy to spend my pennies.
I thought the same things. I've been thinking the manky M@A could look pretty decent given some new arms and every box of Fireforge infantry gives me over 20 spare pares that I believe would scale pretty well, but the price of the sub-standard M@A's hasn't made it worth my while to try. If I can nab a few old ones up super cheap in the future I'd be glad to give it a try.
lord marcus wrote:That is an event exclusive necromancer given out at European conventions
Bolognesus wrote: MaA are fairly big/chunky/heroic. I doubt arms made for historical plastics would scale too well, but more power to you if you can make it work
It might be a bit optimistic yeah, but without having held the models in my own hands, my impression is that the M@A is actually quite decently scaled outside their horrible ape-arms and while bulkier than say Perry minis, not as beefy as modern GW sculpts.
With Fireforge being slightly bigger than Perry's as well there's a decent chance it'd work. It's a bit of a gamble for sure, which is why I need the price to drop before I'll take the pluge.
Bolognesus wrote: MaA are fairly big/chunky/heroic. I doubt arms made for historical plastics would scale too well, but more power to you if you can make it work
It might be a bit optimistic yeah, but without having held the models in my own hands, my impression is that the M@A is actually quite decently scaled outside their horrible ape-arms and while bulkier than say Perry minis, not as beefy as modern GW sculpts.
With Fireforge being slightly bigger than Perry's as well there's a decent chance it'd work. It's a bit of a gamble for sure, which is why I need the price to drop before I'll take the pluge. [/quote
I actually have a bunch of them to hand. Again, good luck.
Seriously though, they are decently scaled, just pretty damn big. Definitely on the large end of the 28mm scale; they'd be big-ish amongst GW's later empire models etc, so they certainly will tower over any historicals. Maybe the tabards etc. will make it look sufficiently in scale though, so if they're sufficiently cheap by all means have a go at it. Feth, if it turns out OK I might finally have a use for the 40ish I *didn't* get the crossbow bits for...
Bolognesus wrote: MaA are fairly big/chunky/heroic. I doubt arms made for historical plastics would scale too well, but more power to you if you can make it work
It might be a bit optimistic yeah, but without having held the models in my own hands, my impression is that the M@A is actually quite decently scaled outside their horrible ape-arms and while bulkier than say Perry minis, not as beefy as modern GW sculpts.
With Fireforge being slightly bigger than Perry's as well there's a decent chance it'd work. It's a bit of a gamble for sure, which is why I need the price to drop before I'll take the pluge.
I don't think they'll work. I've got some fireforge knights, and they are teeny. GW Empire arms work pretty well, though.
Bolognesus wrote: MaA are fairly big/chunky/heroic. I doubt arms made for historical plastics would scale too well, but more power to you if you can make it work
It might be a bit optimistic yeah, but without having held the models in my own hands, my impression is that the M@A is actually quite decently scaled outside their horrible ape-arms and while bulkier than say Perry minis, not as beefy as modern GW sculpts.
With Fireforge being slightly bigger than Perry's as well there's a decent chance it'd work. It's a bit of a gamble for sure, which is why I need the price to drop before I'll take the pluge.
I don't think they'll work. I've got some fireforge knights, and they are teeny. GW Empire arms work pretty well, though.
Ok I might have underestimated the size then. But GW arms should be a decent fit then. I believe I have a bunch of free-company models somewhere with a bunch of spare arms.
I dug out this old thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/553823.page wherein none other than @BobtheInquisitor (what a swell guy eh? ) has given the M@A's the latest generation GW state trooper arms, which indeed fit decently (if perhaps slightly too large).
Polonius wrote: The pictures linked by JudgeDoug show the Roman list, and it looks like most armies around built around a "master list," which includes small bolt throwers and catapults, with the romans having access to both.
Polonius wrote: The pictures linked by JudgeDoug show the Roman list, and it looks like most armies around built around a "master list," which includes small bolt throwers and catapults, with the romans having access to both.
Slave orc Gore riders:
At first glance it seems a little underwhelming to pay an extra $10 for some metal addons when you could just use the regular gore rider kit.
You do however get a swanky abyssal dwarf slave driver in a chariot to mix into the unit.
If that's 10 gore riders and a chariot I'd consider it money well spent. If it's just 8 gore riders and the chariot I'm less convinced.
Also shown are the Elven chariots:
They look decent, but I feel something's slightly off about them. Perhaps it's the horses not really fitting the chariots? Maybe it's just me.
That's probably it.
It's horses from Warlord I believe and while they're of good quality in and of themselves, they do lack a certain flamboyance and fancy-ness associated with elves. At least the kind of elves who'd ride around in white bird-chariots
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Those horses are pretty damn swift when putting away scotch-and-soda to drown out their miseries. Just look at those faces.
Bwahahaha! Good one! Of course, when the gray one nearest the camera tried hitting on a little filly, and she said she wouldn't go out with him because he was "hung like a human", you can understand why he'd turn to drink!
Ugh. The problem with those horses is that their pose doesn't convey pulling weight, or any realistic horse motion, really. It's like somebody used a Playmobil horse as their reference. And the chariots look like they're made from Play-doh. A lump with some crudely carved wing relief and realistic Play-doh sausages complete with randomly varying thickness for a frame .
I wouldn't spend money on the elf chariots. The sculpting just looks really amateur, like a practice sculpt for someone who just learned the basics. The orcs look passable but 'meh' to me. But that slave driver chariot... that I really like. It's a really cool design and I love how it fits into the unit to drive home the point that these are slave fighters.
This is where someone pipes in to defend the Mantic elf chariots by claiming that they're as good or better than any elven chariot that GW has ever produced.
I wouldn't go that far but I think the actual chariot body looks decent enough. It's just that the horses are ill-fitting and the crew is the much maligned old mantic elf scupts.
I sorta like the mantic elves but their posing is incredible boring. Bow armed models should always have a lot of mid-shooting poses.
The plastic elf bowmen posed like caddies for the real archers are the saddest missed opportunity in Mantic's catalogue...except for all the other ones since then.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Those horses are pretty damn swift when putting away scotch-and-soda to drown out their miseries. Just look at those faces.
Bwahahaha! Good one! Of course, when the gray one nearest the camera tried hitting on a little filly, and she said she wouldn't go out with him because he was "hung like a human", you can understand why he'd turn to drink!
Perhaps she might also comment on the well-known "swiftness" of eleven steeds.
Azazelx wrote: This is where someone pipes in to defend the Mantic elf chariots by claiming that they're as good or better than any elven chariot that GW has ever produced.
I would not go further than stating that these chariots are excellent for what they are - Mantic elf chariots. If price is right, they may be right for their price too! Not all chariots need to be charging forward full speed, so some standing at ready could be welcome. What I like least about these kits is how mish-mashed they are - very plain carriage barely fit horses and in turn they do not fit the aesthetics of the crew very much. if I ever go for a chariot-heavy KoW elven army, I will probably get a box of these chariots, but will scratchbuild the rest.
In contrast the slave driver chariot is very good just as it is, no complains and all the praise!
* I do not remember GW elf chariots, except for their lions. Lions were decent. The rest probably didn't inspire me enough to be remembered.
** While typing this text my keyboard ate the word "excellent". It is indeed difficult to put "excellent" and "Mantic" in one sentence!
I wish they had a bit more detail. The current design looks too much like my elf swan boat chariot, and would take a lot of work to bling one out properly.
I'd want a chariot Krishna would be seen riding to war in.
Great. Now I have the TLR version stuck in my head.
Yikes, those are an excellent advertisement for GW's lion chariot if I ever saw one.
Shame they're barely showing the really rather good tortured souls and abyssal hounds which are in that very same KoW preorder section right now.
@Zywus AFAIK those gore riders come five per bag, I'd be quite surprised if they'd retooled to the extent needed to leave out that couple of bits - you'd probably have two spare riders and a spare mount.
Bolognesus wrote: @Zywus AFAIK those gore riders come five per bag, I'd be quite surprised if they'd retooled to the extent needed to leave out that couple of bits - you'd probably have two spare riders and a spare mount.
Yea I reckon so too.
Since the picture show only 8 + chariot, I thought it safest to add that caveat though.
Azazelx wrote: This is where someone pipes in to defend the Mantic elf chariots by claiming that they're as good or better than any elven chariot that GW has ever produced.
Eh, the chariots are alright - the horses are definitely 'meh'.
The best chariots that GW ever made were the ones for Tomb Kings, other than that... never all that excited by chariots in general.
If I ever do get these, they will be pulled by skeletal steeds....
Just get a replacement for that truly hideous monstrous creature daemon-thing and you'd be okay. Kind of the first full army since the undead they've done really well (mostly) in it's entirety.
Polonius wrote: Game wise, the elves chariots are the Billy Baldwin to the Drakon riders Alec Baldwin, so at least it's not a great unit.
Even with the mantic curve, they just aren't great.
That said, an all mantic (or mostly Mantic) abyssal army is looking better and better.
The plastic abyssal warriors and Succubi are both great kits, about on the level with their old Renedra kits, although on smaller sprues with fewer optional extras.
Azazelx wrote: This is where someone pipes in to defend the Mantic elf chariots by claiming that they're as good or better than any elven chariot that GW has ever produced.
I would not go further than stating that these chariots are excellent for what they are - Mantic elf chariots. If price is right, they may be right for their price too! Not all chariots need to be charging forward full speed, so some standing at ready could be welcome. What I like least about these kits is how mish-mashed they are - very plain carriage barely fit horses and in turn they do not fit the aesthetics of the crew very much. if I ever go for a chariot-heavy KoW elven army, I will probably get a box of these chariots, but will scratchbuild the rest.
In contrast the slave driver chariot is very good just as it is, no complains and all the praise!
* I do not remember GW elf chariots, except for their lions. Lions were decent. The rest probably didn't inspire me enough to be remembered.
** While typing this text my keyboard ate the word "excellent". It is indeed difficult to put "excellent" and "Mantic" in one sentence!
If you'd like to see Warhammer Elf Chariots, just type those three words into GIS and like magic....
I agree with your specific critique of their flaws, but I disagree with you on the Mantic aspect, though. I don't think they are "excellent" for "Mantic Elf Chariots", as the company has shown on a number of occasions that they can in fact produce some objectively really nice models. I think they're another example of the lack of strong art direction, uneven quality and a willingness to accept any old tosh in their model lines. I do applaud them for not kickstarting them, but they need to up the bar on model quality.
And I also think the Chaos Dwarf chariot is decent. It's not amazing, but it's not embarrassing, either - it's decent enough that I'd have one in my army without squirming.
so hoping folks will migrate over to the dedicated area to discuss it now that we've separated things out 
Whatever he had for breakfast today, he was like a fething bumble bee.
) has given the M@A's the latest generation 
