Anyone else have issues with a digital purchase of KoW Historical?
I pre-ordered/pre-paid and it hasn't shown up in my library. Geiger's awesome customer support told me to look in my library, which I had already done, which is why I emailed them to begin with...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Update - they had to fix it manually, so if this happens to anyone else, email their support and explain the problem.
Azazelx wrote: If you'd like to see Warhammer Elf Chariots, just type those three words into GIS and like magic....
Unfortunately, the Google knows nothing about why I've left my chariot kits to sit in their boxes for years before I've found the way to get rid of them in exchange for some thing or other. This is what I mean by "not remembering".
But Mantic chariots are excellent. Since I am whiteknighting for Mantic, I draw an average line for design quality just above the famous Drakons, and comparing to them this chariot is quite salvageable with a good paint job and a beverage of choice. Do I qualify for a white plumage?
Directions, decisions and quality control (or lack of them) are hurting Mantic the most, IMHO. But how this can be brought to their attention and how their attitude can be changed in a reasonable time?
Back to news - the kit I am waiting for are these tortured souls for Empires of dust. First image looks promising.
I know people asked for info several times in a couple threads, but Samgone Ellwood Jacksington the Halfling Ranger is finally on sale to the public, along with three other backer designed heroes for DS
NTRabbit wrote: I know people asked for info several times in a couple threads, but Samgone Ellwood Jacksington the Halfling Ranger is finally on sale to the public, along with three other backer designed heroes for DS
Okay, need to figure out what else I need/want from Mantic - order going out tonight!
Is it sad that if all the folks in my group that want Samgone instead get the full box then it will qualify for free shipping? (There are four people, plus me, that all want that figure....)
Last week we announced that Mantic Games will be taking part in National Novel Writing Month (Nanowrimo), which starts on November 1st. This contest will offer you, our fans, a unique opportunity to write your very own stories based on the fantastic characters and action-packed scenarios from your favourite Mantic games.
The Mantic Nanowrimo Writing Competition will center on a handful of Events, Battles, and Character Stories from both the World of Mantica and the Warpath Universe.
For the Lands of Mantica category the three themes are:
1. The Ratkin Revolt
2. The Life of the Green Lady
3. Living Battle Report (Mantica)
For the Warpath Universe category the three themes are:
1. The Last Match of Gregor ‘The Big G’ Davitz
2. The Garrison on Planet Exham IV
3. Living Battle Report (WPU)
By clicking on any of the links above, you can download background documents to help you prepare your story and get your creative juices flowing. You will also need to complete the entry form and there’s also an FAQ that will answer any more questions.
Mantic is launching a Spanish language version of Dungeon saga this Christmas
(Spanish) backers of the original KS will be able to pick up a conversion set for their English version if they want it (manuals and cards only) as per todays update
Sadly facebook says metal, so like the recent Centaurs, but I'd be surprised if those big crab things Gigas end up in metal, unless I'm getting the scale all wrong.
Thats awesome! I love monstrous sea-creatures so I was disappointed when mantic decided to go for more of a sea-elf route with the naiads, this might force me to get a trident realm army after all
Necros wrote: I like the riverguard fishy guys. Are they small, or human sized? Looks like they'd be good for a more aquatic looking unit of skinks.
There's no indication of size on any of the renders, but I'd guess that the Riverguard will end up about Goblin sized. I'd also expect them to have a Greater Water Elemental in resin they're still keeping under wraps, a counterpart to the Earth one.
They had better...er, blow it out of the water with that elemental or they shouldn't bother with it at all. Reaper's elementals are very nice and far cheaper than Mantic's comparable beasties, so another 'almost' mini would hit the market belly-up.
If those crab monsters are restic or boardgame plastic, I'd be interested.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: They had better...er, blow it out of the water with that elemental or they shouldn't bother with it at all. Reaper's elementals are very nice and far cheaper than Mantic's comparable beasties, so another 'almost' mini would hit the market belly-up.
I can't even begin to imagine how good it would have to be to beat Reaper's very good sculpts in transparent plastic that only cost a few bucks for a monster sized model.
They're looking really great, but they're a nope for me due to metal. It's great that they don't need Kickstarter to release the army, but a real shame that the budget doesn't extend to making them in plastic. I guess projected sales don't warrant doing them in plastic.
Looking likely that I'll go for Varangur for my next army due to the release of quite a lot of nice fantasy barbarian models soon.
It all looks rather promising. The Giga crabs especially.
Will they be able to capture that detail in that boardgame plastic though? Since the wyrmriders were casted in metal despite their size, I suspect the crabs will be too.
As long as they're not in too many parts I think peoples aversion to metal monsters are overblown. When it's bad it's really bad though. I still get chills down my spine thinking about pinning each individual spindly little leg of the GW tomb scorpions , so none of that bollocks please.
I started collecting LotR minis back when they seemed to go OOP and that really made me appreciate metals again. I still prefer hard plastic of course, but if that's not an option I will gladly take metal.
I don't quite get why they don't use that new PVC they've been using since the DZ2 Kickstarter for the rank n' file troop types.
Is it just too expensive to work with outside of the KS funding, like tooling plastic sprues?
They use plastic for rank and file, because people buy lots of that. They'd never make enough money on monsters and characters for it to be profitable, not unless they grow into a much bigger company.
They use plastic for rank and file, because people buy lots of that. They'd never make enough money on monsters and characters for it to be profitable, not unless they grow into a much bigger company.
the Mars Attacks mutant spider and ant models were plastic.
If they did 1 model on a sprue, 1 body, 1 head, 2 claws, 4 legs and maybe a couple of add-ons for diversity . have the head/legs/arms with ball joints for posability. people would order 2-6 of them for regiment/hordes plus it would be a cool model for D&D and other games systems. i think there could be an argument there for plastic over metal.
They use plastic for rank and file, because people buy lots of that. They'd never make enough money on monsters and characters for it to be profitable, not unless they grow into a much bigger company.
the Mars Attacks mutant spider and ant models were plastic.
If they did 1 model on a sprue, 1 body, 1 head, 2 claws, 4 legs and maybe a couple of add-ons for diversity . have the head/legs/arms with ball joints for posability. people would order 2-6 of them for regiment/hordes plus it would be a cool model for D&D and other games systems. i think there could be an argument there for plastic over metal.
I think access to manufacturing facilities might be the barrier here rather than cost.
Metal figures can be casted by Mantic in-house or outsourced to a multitude of smaller facilities. HIPS manufacturers on the other hand are few and far in between and Mantic has already gotten burned when they tried to tool sprues in China. Maybe these models could be done in HIPS and be financially viable, but then couldn't be released until 2018 or even later, whenever there's a slot open at Rendera, Wargames Factory or similar.
You'd think 50% of crazy boxes having an extra dragon or adventure gamebook in them would be appealing, but instead I just worry about getting one of the ones without them in.
I'll pay full retail for the gamebook instead, would rather it registered as a sale so they make more of them. Might look out for the tyrant of halpi at £20 though.
There wasn't any KoW picture revelations that hadn't already been shown off ahead of time. In terms of writeups:
Tournament book coming early next year (Feb I think was mentioned). Contains new scenarios, new artefacts, new spells and puts the CoK changes down in writing. Playing with the changes is opponents consent only.
After that we have Trident Realms being launched with full army release in Feb, individual units in March.
Campaign book in April I think? Contains background for the summer campaign as well as some scenarios, some living legends etc.
Sourcebook towards the end of the year. 200+ pages of background fluff, including what's happening "now" and a chapter for each army.
Salamander army release towards the end of the year.
Mantic are bringing resin casting in-house from January and will be making some kits (particularly large infantry or larger) in resin. Once the molds wear out for some existing metal kits, such as Wyrm Riders, they'll convert them to resin.
Kings of War skirmish at some point next year. Will be used to develop hard plastic sprues for many armies, as well as some resin characters.
Siege rules will be done after skirmish. The RC wants to not just do the "Siege" scenario (that's actually an assault scenario) but also all the little scenarios around that, including sallies from the castle, small incursions, camp raids etc.
The RC wants to do a new unit for each of the core races (main rulebook + Trident Realms + Nightstalkers), but also bring them all up to the same number of units. This means some armies, such as Orcs and surprisingly Goblins, will get multiple new units. This hasn't been confirmed yet, but Ronnie did agree to flying gore riders for Orcs
New hard plastic Basilean Men At Arms and entirely new Drakons (might be one of the early resin releases?)
Bringing the resin in house is both a potential plus and a potential minus
being able to control their own production timescale, numbers and avoiding bumping into the 'sorry we're busy for the next 3 months, find somebody else' is going to be very, very helpful,
but I really, really hope they manage to get the QC for it better than they have for their in house metal which they can obviously do well sometimes,
but at others is either spun by fisty glueman himself (with all the skill in metal casting a tube of superglue with plastic hands could be expected to show) or QC'd by a blind monkey
Great news all. Orcs can really need some more entries in their list. More hard plastic is always interesting.
Switching the big models from metal to resin seems to be a good move to increase the demographic. (I'm ok with either as long as quality is good but there seems to be quite a few metallophobics out there these days)
I hope orcs dont get flying pigs, I would prefer to see something new/different added to their list like maybe burrowing creatures or scavenging birds/creatures that live off the battlefields
Those new renders do look good. Hopefully the end products come out as well.
I'd be interested to see what new units armies like orcs get. Aside from potentially silly stuff like flying pigs, I feel that they need some more infantry options.
Azazelx wrote: Those new renders do look good. Hopefully the end products come out as well.
I'd be interested to see what new units armies like orcs get. Aside from potentially silly stuff like flying pigs, I feel that they need some more infantry options.
Really? What do you think they need? Ax, Morax, and Greatax feel like enough-- in my opinion, at least.
Really? What do you think they need? Ax, Morax, and Greatax feel like enough-- in my opinion, at least.
Yeah, after rereading their history of genetic manipulation and violence I cant think of any other Orc units without delving into silly ideas, thats why I suggested some 'hanger onners' units that might be a part of an orc battlehost or scavenging from it.
TheWaspinator wrote: Can we hit the giant enemy crab's weak point for massive damage?
In a way you can, they have the big shield rule meaning that attacks from the front are against def 6+, while flank and rear attacks target the weak points at only def 4+.
Azazelx wrote: Those new renders do look good. Hopefully the end products come out as well.
I'd be interested to see what new units armies like orcs get. Aside from potentially silly stuff like flying pigs, I feel that they need some more infantry options.
Personally I'd like Orc berserkers (both foot and mounted) and Orc spears to be added to the list
I'm not keen on the flying pigs idea but some sort of extra flyer would be nice. Bound bat swarms or juvenile winged slashers maybe?
Daedleh wrote: There wasn't any KoW picture revelations that hadn't already been shown off ahead of time. In terms of writeups:
Tournament book coming early next year (Feb I think was mentioned). Contains new scenarios, new artefacts, new spells and puts the CoK changes down in writing. Playing with the changes is opponents consent only.
After that we have Trident Realms being launched with full army release in Feb, individual units in March.
Campaign book in April I think? Contains background for the summer campaign as well as some scenarios, some living legends etc.
Sourcebook towards the end of the year. 200+ pages of background fluff, including what's happening "now" and a chapter for each army.
Salamander army release towards the end of the year.
Mantic are bringing resin casting in-house from January and will be making some kits (particularly large infantry or larger) in resin. Once the molds wear out for some existing metal kits, such as Wyrm Riders, they'll convert them to resin.
Kings of War skirmish at some point next year. Will be used to develop hard plastic sprues for many armies, as well as some resin characters.
Siege rules will be done after skirmish. The RC wants to not just do the "Siege" scenario (that's actually an assault scenario) but also all the little scenarios around that, including sallies from the castle, small incursions, camp raids etc.
The RC wants to do a new unit for each of the core races (main rulebook + Trident Realms + Nightstalkers), but also bring them all up to the same number of units. This means some armies, such as Orcs and surprisingly Goblins, will get multiple new units. This hasn't been confirmed yet, but Ronnie did agree to flying gore riders for Orcs
New hard plastic Basilean Men At Arms and entirely new Drakons (might be one of the early resin releases?)
BobtheInquisitor wrote: How much material is the sourcebook likely to contain that we haven't already seen in the main rule book and the Basilian expansion book?
Bearing in mind that the Basilean expansion book is from the previous edition and out of print...
Watching the recording they put on Facebook, theres a comment about how in order to make something in plastic they have to be certain that it will sell thousands of kits in the first two months otherwise they'll never make back the investment, and thats why most plastics are mostly a non-starter outside of Kickstarter stuff.
They also listed a number of ideas they've had for new units (very basic spitballing type ideas), such as:
Mastiff pack, rook riders, tunnelling monster for dwarves
A shooting and a healing monster for undead
Flying pigs and orcs with big shield or orcs
Red goblin berserker (high on drugs) type unit for ogres
Then said they had 30-40 different ideas across all the core armies (ie. the Mantic Armies) but not all of them would happen.
Apparently they have fluff (and share a common origin with the night stalkers now) as well as a vague outline of an army list, and are mostly likely to first show up as part of this rumoured KoW skirmish game before getting a full release later.
Azazelx wrote: Those new renders do look good. Hopefully the end products come out as well.
I'd be interested to see what new units armies like orcs get. Aside from potentially silly stuff like flying pigs, I feel that they need some more infantry options.
Really? What do you think they need? Ax, Morax, and Greatax feel like enough-- in my opinion, at least.
I really don't want flying pigs.
They essentially have four types of "regular" orcs with different weapon loadouts for their infrantry options - Sword & Board, Bows, 2 hander and Dual Wield. They're all based on the Mantic Orc sprue, which makes sense, but is limiting for both (ex-)WHFB orc players and Mantic's expansion plans).
What I'd like to see in "Warhammer" terms - Orcs with Spears, Big'Uns (better stats/elites), Black Orcs Sword & Board (heavy armour + better stats/elites), Black Orcs 2-handers. Maybe even incorporating ogre-orcs into he mix as a large infantry other than trolls? Kind of an Olog-hai but more orcish than trollish. I remember long ago Ogres used to be part of the Orc army in WHFB. We can still take Ogre allies, but "Ogres" based on Orcs instead of Humans could be cool twist.
I'd also like to see the whole Savage/Feral orc concept make it's way over. Savage Orcs (lighter armour, more attacks? faster?), Savage Orcs w/bows, Savage Orcs with spears, Savage Orcs w/2handers, Savage Orcs on Boars (Gores). Plus appropriate characters - walords, banner bearers, shamans along with mounted/chariot/wyvern/slasher options. It could be it's own army, but could just as easily be rolled into the existing force.
A lot of those (and some of the existing orcs) could be overhauled pretty easily by setting them up as a few new units and condensing them via options. The current orcs are a bit bloated in terms of their units all being separate entries when they could just as easily be condensed via the good old:
• Exchange shields for two-handed weapons for free (lower Defence to 4+, gain Crushing Strength (1))
Also, for goblins the whole forest goblins and even hoodie goblins thing would be good to see as well and offer a few more new units. I know that Mantic wants to go it's own way, but a bit more compatibility never hurt the game's allure, as Uncharted Empires shows quite nicely.
Looking through I can't see any units that can be combined that way.
Ax> Morax, change Melee, Defence, Nerve and number of attacks. The last two must be changed for each unit size, plus they do not have a horde option. Also a huge change in points on a per-unit level.
Ax>Greatax, change Melee, Nerve and Points on a per-unit size level. Also the Swap De5 for De4 and +1 CS, which is fine. However the Nerve and Points would have to be declared separately for each unit size.
Ax>Skulks, different Speed, different Melee, Different Ra, down to De3, different attacks, different special rules and different points. Also limited to troops.
I don't see any other swaps.
I see a lot of the units that you're suggesting are copies of the WHFB Orcs, asides from Ogres. Every Savage Orc suggestion is ripped from WHFB, as are Big Uns (the elite Orc unit is GreatAx) and Black Orcs. When we make units for any future expansions, we'll be coming up with unique Mantic IP units. Spear orcs are a possibility, however I think for the remaining unit entries we'll be coming up with something more original.
Also, I should clarify that flying pigs = flying gore riders. Background wise something along the lines of an Abyssal Dwarf interbreeding experiment (like ADwarf halfbreeds) that was uncontrollable by the ADwarfs and a flock escaped, but they're now bred extensively by Orcs.
It's interesting to see that the flying pig unit has a lot of ambivalent to negative response here on dakka, but had a lot of positive response on the related facebook threads.
Daedleh wrote: I see a lot of the units that you're suggesting are copies of the WHFB Orcs, asides from Ogres. Every Savage Orc suggestion is ripped from WHFB, as are Big Uns (the elite Orc unit is GreatAx) and Black Orcs. When we make units for any future expansions, we'll be coming up with unique Mantic IP units. Spear orcs are a possibility, however I think for the remaining unit entries we'll be coming up with something more original.
Thing is you could argue that a lot of for instance the dwarf list is inspired by the WHFB dwarf list - that doesn't mean that the Mantic dwarf fluff or models remotely resemble the GW ones. Orc berserkers could look different and have different origins whilst still fulfilling a useful niche in the army. With KoW splitting orcs and goblins into separate lists it does make orcs feel like they are lacking variety even if the number of different units they have isn't so far behind some of the others. Two of the interesting choices are irregular for starters.
Daedleh wrote: Also, I should clarify that flying pigs = flying gore riders. Background wise something along the lines of an Abyssal Dwarf interbreeding experiment (like ADwarf halfbreeds) that was uncontrollable by the ADwarfs and a flock escaped, but they're now bred extensively by Orcs.
That still doesn't make me like them any more than I did.
NTRabbit wrote: It's interesting to see that the flying pig unit has a lot of ambivalent to negative response here on dakka, but had a lot of positive response on the related facebook threads.
they had also only negative response on the german forums were I posted the news
I'd say more variations of infantry is the least thing orcs need. Spears would look nice though.
I'm not super-stoked for flying pigs, although they might be cool with the right artistic concept.
I don't think there exist any cavalry unit with flying (everything is either infantry, Large infantry/Cavalry or Monsters) at the moment, so that would help the orc list to stand out a bit.
What I really would like to see them get is some kind of semi-short-range war engine contraption. Some kind of chemical fire or acid launcher. Helping orcs be a but more involved in the shooting phase, and help deal with enemy flyers in particular. But still keeping the list as primarily close combat and short range.
Something like the Dwarf/Elf flame belchers but fewer, stronger attacks and 18" range.
When I look on the Orc list, spears are an infantry option that is missing, but I don't think that is what they need.
But Morax Gore Riders and a Skulk chariot
For Dwarfs I miss a Hero option (Iron Guard Captain) and something like a flying Warsmith unit (with pistols)
Zywus wrote: What I really would like to see them get is some kind of semi-short-range war engine contraption. Some kind of chemical fire or acid launcher. Helping orcs be a but more involved in the shooting phase, and help deal with enemy flyers in particular. But still keeping the list as primarily close combat and short range.
I've put something forward, though it's much lower tech than that
Part of the problem is that the basic Ax unit is actually pretty hard hitting, with CS 1 and DEF 5+. The main areas to improve it in the list would be to include higher nerve units or Me 3+.
Or, go back to the well and do Black Orcs. Me 3+, CS1, Def 5+, and add nerve to other orc infantry units in 6".
Zywus wrote: What I really would like to see them get is some kind of semi-short-range war engine contraption. Some kind of chemical fire or acid launcher. Helping orcs be a but more involved in the shooting phase, and help deal with enemy flyers in particular. But still keeping the list as primarily close combat and short range.
I've put something forward, though it's much lower tech than that
How about half troll or half ogre archers/stone throwers?
Or maybe having something like:
Troll Stone throwers - Thrown weapon 12" range, 5+ to hit, Piercing 1 - Represents smaller rock throwing as they lumber across the battlefield. Could also give Orcs a bit of anti-flier coverage. Maybe reduces melee to 5+ to represent no dedicated melee weapon? or just have it as a points increase without a negative.
Giant Rock Thrower - Treat as Bow maybe?(24" range with move penalty) as 12" thrown range isnt that much for a giant 5+ to hit D6, Piercing 1 - Giants often carry around baskets/nets/sacks full of rocks that they throw at enemy units. the baskets/nets/sacks fall apart in mid air raining down a barrage of stones that can decimate lightly armoured units.
So the giant ability is more like a shotgun effect which ties in with his Attacks rather than give him a different stat line for the throwing weapon.
Either of these would give orcs a ranged attack and still keep in line with 'savage orcs' style without adding in technology.
I see a lot of the units that you're suggesting are copies of the WHFB Orcs, asides from Ogres. Every Savage Orc suggestion is ripped from WHFB, as are Big Uns (the elite Orc unit is GreatAx) and Black Orcs. When we make units for any future expansions, we'll be coming up with unique Mantic IP units. Spear orcs are a possibility, however I think for the remaining unit entries we'll be coming up with something more original.
Also, I should clarify that flying pigs = flying gore riders. Background wise something along the lines of an Abyssal Dwarf interbreeding experiment (like ADwarf halfbreeds) that was uncontrollable by the ADwarfs and a flock escaped, but they're now bred extensively by Orcs.
Yep, a lot of my ideas are taken from WHFB. I don't make any pretension otherwise. There are a couple of things I think worth rememebring, though:
GW"s concept of Orcs and bigger, meaner orcs is straight from LotR Orcs/Uruk-Hai.
KoW is a system with its origins in providing proxies - initially as figures, and then as a proxy game. I find it a little unfortunate that Tomb Kings and Skaven players seem like have more analogues for their models than Orc & Goblin players. I really enjoy KoW, but my Black Orc and Big'un models don't feel like they really have a place in the army that befits them alongside the regulars.
But if you forget them as WHFB analogues for a minute and look at them as more general fantasy tropes:
Bigger, meaner Orc elites. (adds variety instead of GreatAx and that's it)
Orc Berserkers. I mean, Ogres get berserkers. Orcs fit the trope.
+ weapon options.
I feel like Dwarf Berserkers are more WHFB-like than Orc Berserkers, but they're in because slayers and (initially) the AoW boxed set that Mantic used to sell on their site.
Flying pigs/gore riders seems like the kind of embarrassing pun that should sit alongside GW classics like "Mon'Keigh" and that other, similarly cringeworthy one that escapes me for the moment. And fungoid orcs/orks. Making the flying unit mounts gores (aka pigs) seems more like a way to shoehorn an awful pun into the game than an actual well-thought-out unit.
I mean, Naiads (and Tau) are at least well-done versions of the old, old "Codex: Fishmen" joke...
An option for Greatax to swap 1 CS for +1 def should cover black orcs. I dont see an elegant way for savage orcs to get all their options in, but a orc berserker unit would be cool.
The fluff for flying pigs isn't comical, the RC has no control over whether Mantic delivers non-comical sculpts or not.
There are two things wrong with that statement. I'll only bother to address the first.
You can make as much effort as you like to do a good job with the fluff, and you might well do so. But ultimately you're making an attempt to justify the shoehorning in of the stupidest of jokes/puns instead of making something unique that won't be embarrassingly lame - like some other sort of non-pun-related flying unit mount.
Don't be an echo chamber, rules committee! Many of us have always respected and defended you, but it doesn't mean that all your ideas are golden.
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Baragash wrote: Of the 7 Orc units, 5 of them are elite, only Ax and Skulks aren't elite.
Maybe you guys need to talk. One guy says one is the elite, the other says they're all elite.
Maybe you guys need to talk. One guy says one is the elite, the other says they're all elite.
BTW, when "everything" is elite, then nothing is.
I was giving the KoW Orc equivalent of BigUns, which are GreatAx. Morax are two handers which AFAIK are not from WHFB (though of course I'm sure I'm going to be wrong on that). I can see that wasn't clear from what I said though.
No-one said that everything is elite. Of the unit entries in the Orc list, the majority are elite but then so are the entries for Ogres. And Abyssals. And Elves. And Basileans. And The Herd. This isn't something unique to Orcs. It just means that there is a greater variety of elite units, necessitating a greater number of unit entries in the list.
Azazelx wrote: Flying pigs/gore riders seems like the kind of embarrassing pun that should sit alongside GW classics like "Mon'Keigh" and that other, similarly cringeworthy one that escapes me for the moment. And fungoid orcs/orks. Making the flying unit mounts gores (aka pigs) seems more like a way to shoehorn an awful pun into the game than an actual well-thought-out unit.
I mean, Naiads (and Tau) are at least well-done versions of the old, old "Codex: Fishmen" joke...
Huh, the connection that my mind had made when I saw the figures was 'hog nosed bat' - which is a little, tiny, teeny critter in the real world. (Smaller than shrews.)
Probably what I will be going with for my own head cannon, regardless of what Mantic comes up with.
The Auld Grump - but then the grandfather of fantasy games has owl-bears, so what do I know?
Maybe you guys need to talk. One guy says one is the elite, the other says they're all elite.
BTW, when "everything" is elite, then nothing is.
I was giving the KoW Orc equivalent of BigUns, which are GreatAx. Morax are two handers which AFAIK are not from WHFB (though of course I'm sure I'm going to be wrong on that). I can see that wasn't clear from what I said though.
No-one said that everything is elite. Of the unit entries in the Orc list, the majority are elite but then so are the entries for Ogres. And Abyssals. And Elves. And Basileans. And The Herd. This isn't something unique to Orcs. It just means that there is a greater variety of elite units, necessitating a greater number of unit entries in the list.
If they wanted to add a Black Orc style unit to KoW without giving them elite, they could instead give them Rallying (1) instead. It would represent how Black Orcs are able to stop other Orcs from squabbling.
Of course, since they would need to refluff the Black Orcs to fit into KoW, they could come up with something like this:
"Of all the orcish warriors, none are more feared than the Mauls of Garkan. While most Orcs kill for the joy of it, the Mauls of Garkan fight with unholy purpose. These orcish death knights are fanatical dedicated to their dark master and regularly sacrifice prisoners-of-war atop an Abysmal Anvil. Garkan then uses these unfortunate souls to fuel his demonic forge, using their pain and sorrow to create more weapons for the Wicked Ones. On the battlefield, other Orcs fight twice as hard in the presence of a Maul of Garkan, lest they too be sacrificed on their vile anvil."
Well i'm definitely picking up a trident realm army, its way different then anything else out there and looks great. Well done mantic good job on this.
jimf747 wrote: Well i'm definitely picking up a trident realm army, its way different then anything else out there and looks great. Well done mantic good job on this.
Make sure to buy it in UK pounds sterling, works out cheaper than buying it in USD
Did I miss individual pictures of the things that are coming out for the fish people? I'm trying to make out some details but I don't see any large photos.
The really big .. maybe ogre-sized fish people in particular seem interesting, like great candidates for some Sahuagin.
MLaw wrote: Did I miss individual pictures of the things that are coming out for the fish people? I'm trying to make out some details but I don't see any large photos.
The really big .. maybe ogre-sized fish people in particular seem interesting, like great candidates for some Sahuagin.
The River Guard (frog-men) are just (20mm based) infantry. The ogre-sized models in the sets are the water elementals and the gigas (crabs).
In an interview with Mantic staff, they talked about the skirmish game coming out with the summer campaign. This is because they will be used to simulate siege warfare. Basically, a siege takes a long time, and would have several smaller encounters than when an entire army rushes through a breach in a wall. So, according to that interview, it should be out before July or August.
Also, it was mentioned that the skirmish rules would allow you to make your own heroes. They would not be allowed in tournaments, for obvious reasons. However, they would add a very cool "experience" system to the game. I think that they also mentioned that the skirmish rules would allow you to upgrade your normal units over numerous games.
I went back to look for the video, but I couldn't find it. I will update this post when I find it. It had Matt Gilbert, and another Mantic employee, in it. The working title at the time of the interview was Kings of War: Vanguard.
All those things have been discussed, but most of them as part of the KoW sourcebook and/or "general's compendium" (which may be where siege goes, depending on the amount of material there is).
Sorry. I didn't mean to insinuate that siege rules were coming out. What I meant to say, was that the skirmish rules could be used to simulate different parts of a siege. By the way, thanks for the links. I loved the discussion in the vids.
Gotcha, sorry I misunderstood! I'm used to someone on Dakka idly mentioning something as a rumour or a possibility, then six months down the line various folk start complaining because Mantic apparently promised it
But yes, the skirmish rules used for the different parts of the siege leading up to the assault scenario. Breakthroughs, sallies, razing supplies etc.
I think siege rules would work really well for KoW. I don't think it would slow down play and would add some depth and more scenery opportunities to the game.
Seem to remember there was also some discussion about how the skirmish ruleset would allow them to soft launch a new style of Twilight Kin models, starting with a hero or two basically.
Tournament Guide
From choosing your venue and game format, to making sure you have enough food and drink on hand, learn how to plan and deliver a top-notch tournament step-by-step.
Tips from Experienced TOs Some of the world’s leading Kings of War tournament organisers share their experiences and offer-up some seasoned advice for newcomers.
League Guide
We cover everything from escalation to ladder leagues, along with an experience system to give your event that added sense of progression.
Writing your Own Rules
Want to create new Kings of War content? We’ve set out some pointers on the best way to make or modify units, special rules, and scenarios with maximum compatibility.
All-New 2017 Rules
Get up to speed with the very latest Kings of War balance updates, along with brand new scenarios, spells and artefacts for the 2017 tournament season.
...why would they release pictures of basecoated models? That is certainly the worst "official" paint job I've ever seen. The models look cool but tha paint job makes it hard to see.
That Thuul paint job is terrible, I can't even judge the models past that. The Gigas look alright but aside from the one on the far left their shells look like squished clay. The detail is also pretty soft overall. Like most of Mantic's stuff it comes down to being a decade behind what other companies are releasing.
RE: Paintjobs - I take it you never saw the original Veer-myn paintjobs/modeling? The store images had massive gaps and the paint looked like they had commissioned the heroclix painters..
Maybe its just my eyes but the Thuul paintjob makes it really hard for me to see any of the detail, it just blends into a big blob unless I really stop and focus.
Gallahad wrote: Paint jobs aside, I'll be getting some of those Thuul. Nice and original sculpts. Does anyone know anything about material or price?
Looks a lot like genestealers with even bigger Chtulhu influence to me.
+ cloth around the waste. Because the underwater forces of daemons/Chtulhu creatures care about not exhibiting their genitals (which they supposably have, hence the knickers existance?) to the mortal realms.
Gallahad wrote: Paint jobs aside, I'll be getting some of those Thuul. Nice and original sculpts. Does anyone know anything about material or price?
Looks a lot like genestealers with even bigger Chtulhu influence to me.
+ cloth around the waste. Because the underwater forces of daemons/Chtulhu creatures care about not exhibiting their genitals (which they supposably have, hence the knickers existance?) to the mortal realms.
Genestealers with four arms and exoskeletons? Uh...
Definite Cthulhu influences. The design of Everything out there is influenced by something. Whether it feels derivative or not largely depends on how similar the two products are. When your checklist of similarities with Cthulhu himself ends at "squid head" and "underwater dwellers", combined with the fact that nobody else makes humanoid size squid men barbarians, I'm totally comfortable calling them original.
Re the loincloths, who is to say that an advanced civilization doesn't care about covering their genitals? Is the one more believable than the other? Stop stereotyping other cultures! (Lest I summon the self styled thought police of the internet, the last comment was made entirely in jest. Besides, I think I have to say something about gender to finish the incantation)
Man, the paint jobs on the Thull and Gigas would greatly benefit from a splash of Soft Tone. The models are pretty decent though. I might have to get a Thull troop just for general purpose fantasy/sci-fi/mythos gaming.
Gallahad wrote: Paint jobs aside, I'll be getting some of those Thuul. Nice and original sculpts. Does anyone know anything about material or price?
Looks a lot like genestealers with even bigger Chtulhu influence to me.
+ cloth around the waste. Because the underwater forces of daemons/Chtulhu creatures care about not exhibiting their genitals (which they supposably have, hence the knickers existance?) to the mortal realms.
Genestealers with four arms and exoskeletons? Uh...
Definite Cthulhu influences. The design of Everything out there is influenced by something. Whether it feels derivative or not largely depends on how similar the two products are. When your checklist of similarities with Cthulhu himself ends at "squid head" and "underwater dwellers", combined with the fact that nobody else makes humanoid size squid men barbarians, I'm totally comfortable calling them original.
Re the loincloths, who is to say that an advanced civilization doesn't care about covering their genitals? Is the one more believable than the other? Stop stereotyping other cultures! (Lest I summon the self styled thought police of the internet, the last comment was made entirely in jest. Besides, I think I have to say something about gender to finish the incantation)
The similliaraties are: legs, arms, clawed feet, a leaning forwards/running pose, a prolonged bulbous head with tentacles, purple(ok, this one doesn't matter really) - that's quite few. And they are miniatures in one scale for wargames, hence they are comparable, therefor I see the latest one less original But that's subjective As to cloth underwear - they dwell under water and it would float all about, making the thing look even more stupid and on surface any movement would reveal everything. its dumb (like my whole argument about panties of Kings of War plastic miniatures with squid heads) and looks like a "family friendly" tool
Gallahad wrote: Paint jobs aside, I'll be getting some of those Thuul. Nice and original sculpts. Does anyone know anything about material or price?
Looks a lot like genestealers with even bigger Chtulhu influence to me.
+ cloth around the waste. Because the underwater forces of daemons/Chtulhu creatures care about not exhibiting their genitals (which they supposably have, hence the knickers existance?) to the mortal realms.
Genestealers with four arms and exoskeletons? Uh...
Definite Cthulhu influences. The design of Everything out there is influenced by something. Whether it feels derivative or not largely depends on how similar the two products are. When your checklist of similarities with Cthulhu himself ends at "squid head" and "underwater dwellers", combined with the fact that nobody else makes humanoid size squid men barbarians, I'm totally comfortable calling them original.
Re the loincloths, who is to say that an advanced civilization doesn't care about covering their genitals? Is the one more believable than the other? Stop stereotyping other cultures! (Lest I summon the self styled thought police of the internet, the last comment was made entirely in jest. Besides, I think I have to say something about gender to finish the incantation)
The similliaraties are: legs, arms, clawed feet, a leaning forwards/running pose, a prolonged bulbous head with tentacles, purple(ok, this one doesn't matter really) - that's quite few. And they are miniatures in one scale for wargames, hence they are comparable, therefor I see the latest one less original But that's subjective As to cloth underwear - they dwell under water and it would float all about, making the thing look even more stupid and on surface any movement would reveal everything. its dumb (like my whole argument about panties of Kings of War plastic miniatures with squid heads) and looks like a "family friendly" tool
Everything must feel terribly derivative in a world in which "has legs" and "has arms" and "running pose" mark two miniatures as being too close in design for comfort.
Re loincloths floating about in the water, that is a good point. I think these are portrayed as being on land though. Maybe they should have gone with pants.
Fingers crossed they are in some version of plastic.
Everything must feel terribly derivative in a world in which "has legs" and "has arms" and "running pose" mark two miniatures as being too close in design for comfort.
Re loincloths floating about in the water, that is a good point. I think these are portrayed as being on land though. Maybe they should have gone with pants.
Fingers crossed they are in some version of plastic.
Especially since Genestealers are cheap knock-offs of Giger Xenomorphs, these guys are just little naked Illithids. They look like the cute babies of Uuthüll
Gallahad wrote: Paint jobs aside, I'll be getting some of those Thuul. Nice and original sculpts. Does anyone know anything about material or price?
Looks a lot like genestealers with even bigger Chtulhu influence to me.
+ cloth around the waste. Because the underwater forces of daemons/Chtulhu creatures care about not exhibiting their genitals (which they supposably have, hence the knickers existance?) to the mortal realms.
Genestealers with four arms and exoskeletons? Uh...
Definite Cthulhu influences. The design of Everything out there is influenced by something. Whether it feels derivative or not largely depends on how similar the two products are. When your checklist of similarities with Cthulhu himself ends at "squid head" and "underwater dwellers", combined with the fact that nobody else makes humanoid size squid men barbarians, I'm totally comfortable calling them original.
Re the loincloths, who is to say that an advanced civilization doesn't care about covering their genitals? Is the one more believable than the other? Stop stereotyping other cultures! (Lest I summon the self styled thought police of the internet, the last comment was made entirely in jest. Besides, I think I have to say something about gender to finish the incantation)
The similliaraties are: legs, arms, clawed feet, a leaning forwards/running pose, a prolonged bulbous head with tentacles, purple(ok, this one doesn't matter really) - that's quite few. And they are miniatures in one scale for wargames, hence they are comparable, therefor I see the latest one less original But that's subjective As to cloth underwear - they dwell under water and it would float all about, making the thing look even more stupid and on surface any movement would reveal everything. its dumb (like my whole argument about panties of Kings of War plastic miniatures with squid heads) and looks like a "family friendly" tool
Everything must feel terribly derivative in a world in which "has legs" and "has arms" and "running pose" mark two miniatures as being too close in design for comfort.
Re loincloths floating about in the water, that is a good point. I think these are portrayed as being on land though. Maybe they should have gone with pants.
Fingers crossed they are in some version of plastic.
They are aquatic creatures so they aren't familiar with just how drafty it can be on land so they put some loincloths on to keep they bait and tackle from getting cold. Thuul probably don't wear loincloths underwater but we'll never know because if they were underwater they wouldn't have any opposing army to fight against so they'd never get a tabletop representation while submerged in their natural habitat.
Gallahad wrote: Paint jobs aside, I'll be getting some of those Thuul. Nice and original sculpts. Does anyone know anything about material or price?
Looks a lot like genestealers with even bigger Chtulhu influence to me.
+ cloth around the waste. Because the underwater forces of daemons/Chtulhu creatures care about not exhibiting their genitals (which they supposably have, hence the knickers existance?) to the mortal realms.
Genestealers with four arms and exoskeletons? Uh...
Definite Cthulhu influences. The design of Everything out there is influenced by something. Whether it feels derivative or not largely depends on how similar the two products are. When your checklist of similarities with Cthulhu himself ends at "squid head" and "underwater dwellers", combined with the fact that nobody else makes humanoid size squid men barbarians, I'm totally comfortable calling them original.
Re the loincloths, who is to say that an advanced civilization doesn't care about covering their genitals? Is the one more believable than the other? Stop stereotyping other cultures! (Lest I summon the self styled thought police of the internet, the last comment was made entirely in jest. Besides, I think I have to say something about gender to finish the incantation)
The similliaraties are: legs, arms, clawed feet, a leaning forwards/running pose, a prolonged bulbous head with tentacles, purple(ok, this one doesn't matter really) - that's quite few. And they are miniatures in one scale for wargames, hence they are comparable, therefor I see the latest one less original But that's subjective As to cloth underwear - they dwell under water and it would float all about, making the thing look even more stupid and on surface any movement would reveal everything. its dumb (like my whole argument about panties of Kings of War plastic miniatures with squid heads) and looks like a "family friendly" tool
Everything must feel terribly derivative in a world in which "has legs" and "has arms" and "running pose" mark two miniatures as being too close in design for comfort.
Re loincloths floating about in the water, that is a good point. I think these are portrayed as being on land though. Maybe they should have gone with pants.
Fingers crossed they are in some version of plastic.
Seriously.. you completely just chose to ignore the tentacle face thing??? These are straight mindflayers, as I joked about earlier.I'm just not complaining because I have a use for that
RE: Floating loincloths.. I don't know the fluff but perhaps they are more wetland type creatures that dwell mostly in shallows and sewers and water filled caves?
Because can, how about a mostly terrible 1000 points of Thuul just designed to get Uuthüll and his babies (including the Thuul Mythican also coming out) onto the table?
Gallahad wrote: Paint jobs aside, I'll be getting some of those Thuul. Nice and original sculpts. Does anyone know anything about material or price?
Looks a lot like genestealers with even bigger Chtulhu influence to me.
+ cloth around the waste. Because the underwater forces of daemons/Chtulhu creatures care about not exhibiting their genitals (which they supposably have, hence the knickers existance?) to the mortal realms.
Genestealers with four arms and exoskeletons? Uh...
Definite Cthulhu influences. The design of Everything out there is influenced by something. Whether it feels derivative or not largely depends on how similar the two products are. When your checklist of similarities with Cthulhu himself ends at "squid head" and "underwater dwellers", combined with the fact that nobody else makes humanoid size squid men barbarians, I'm totally comfortable calling them original.
Re the loincloths, who is to say that an advanced civilization doesn't care about covering their genitals? Is the one more believable than the other? Stop stereotyping other cultures! (Lest I summon the self styled thought police of the internet, the last comment was made entirely in jest. Besides, I think I have to say something about gender to finish the incantation)
The similliaraties are: legs, arms, clawed feet, a leaning forwards/running pose, a prolonged bulbous head with tentacles, purple(ok, this one doesn't matter really) - that's quite few. And they are miniatures in one scale for wargames, hence they are comparable, therefor I see the latest one less original But that's subjective As to cloth underwear - they dwell under water and it would float all about, making the thing look even more stupid and on surface any movement would reveal everything. its dumb (like my whole argument about panties of Kings of War plastic miniatures with squid heads) and looks like a "family friendly" tool
Everything must feel terribly derivative in a world in which "has legs" and "has arms" and "running pose" mark two miniatures as being too close in design for comfort.
Re loincloths floating about in the water, that is a good point. I think these are portrayed as being on land though. Maybe they should have gone with pants.
Fingers crossed they are in some version of plastic.
Yeah, you kind of just missed the main "check" in similliaraties, that ties them all into a big one and you did that on purpose to make my point look unjustified as to "legs, arms", ect. - that's actuly a problem I have with fantasy and science fiction in wargames- 99% of miniatures seem to be "reskins" of a human. And that's boring and unimaginative. I guess that's due to people usually being more invested in to a character, if it resembles a human - one can put himself into that characters place easier
I don't mind the squid guys overall, but they should have left the loincloths off or given them "crustacean armour" or something. Squid don't have external genitals anyway.
Clash of Kings looks potentially useful. Will there be a digital version as well as the printed book?
re: thuul loincloths: Isnt the Trident Realms fluff based on all of the sentient creatures in their army being unwilling mash-ups, kind of like the Herd army? So why wouldnt the Thuul wear clothing, if they started out as a land dwelling human(oid)?
Tyr13 wrote: re: thuul loincloths: Isnt the Trident Realms fluff based on all of the sentient creatures in their army being unwilling mash-ups, kind of like the Herd army? So why wouldnt the Thuul wear clothing, if they started out as a land dwelling human(oid)?
That makes sense.
However honestly I don't get the point of the debate around it. Who cares. They look cool and will murder the face off most units with a handful of dice. Why care about the loincloths?
Tyr13 wrote: re: thuul loincloths: Isnt the Trident Realms fluff based on all of the sentient creatures in their army being unwilling mash-ups, kind of like the Herd army? So why wouldnt the Thuul wear clothing, if they started out as a land dwelling human(oid)?
That makes sense.
However honestly I don't get the point of the debate around it. Who cares. They look cool and will murder the face off most units with a handful of dice. Why care about the loincloths?
Because I like models that are aesthetically pleasing to me and the loincloths reduce the quality of their appearance. It's the same as me not being pleased with the silly looking runes embedded into the skin of the Fyreslayers or the skulls embedded into the skin of the Khorgorath. We are allowed to discuss things we dislike as well as those things that we do like, aren't we?
Just because you don't give understand something doesn't mean that it can't be a legitimate point of discussion for other people.
And if ingame combat effectiveness should matter when talking about the aesthetic qualities of a model, you may as well just use an empty movement tray with the model statlines pasted on it. That will "murder the face off most units with a handful of dice" just as well as the best or worst models ever.
@Tyr and Baragash - I wasn't aware of that. It sounds silly to me (along with unwilling mash-ups caring about sexual modesty) but I can accept it in context as a reason better than marcus' "dont care" reply.
Facebook comments are asking for hard plastic, restic, resin, anything other than metal.
To me, Drakon variant 2, rider variant 3, and the second shield and lance have a bit of darkness about them, so maybe it's pulling double duty, and we've also the first look at a new Twilight Kin unit as well.
Will the new drakon riders be tied in with the forthcoming skirmish rules KS or will they be a retail release? Has Mantic said what minis will be attached to the skirmish rules KS?
As I've understood it; the problematic Mantic HIPS models released some years ago (Goblins, Basileans) wasn't a problem with the sculptors or casters directly.
It was a lack of communication and incompatible digital files. It was the fault of the Chinese casting company that ran with what they had and cranked out sub-par models. The fault is also on Mantic that had not made sure to put themselves in a position of being able to demand a certain quality from the casters when this was revealed, plus choosing to send out the sub-par product to backers and customers.
Thankfully the heady days of 2012/2013 are fairly long gone and the Deadzone 2 and Warpath and TWD kickstarters have released awesomely sculpted models in plastic. No more restic, thank fething christ.
judgedoug wrote: Thankfully the heady days of 2012/2013 are fairly long gone and the Deadzone 2 and Warpath and TWD kickstarters have released awesomely sculpted models in plastic. No more restic, thank fething christ.
For the larger models, I actually quite like restic.
I never hated it nearly as much as some folks, though.
judgedoug wrote: Thankfully the heady days of 2012/2013 are fairly long gone and the Deadzone 2 and Warpath and TWD kickstarters have released awesomely sculpted models in plastic. No more restic, thank fething christ.
For the larger models, I actually quite like restic.
I never hated it nearly as much as some folks, though.
The Auld Grump
Me either. Excepting the bendiness now and then it's a decent material.
Facebook comments are asking for hard plastic, restic, resin, anything other than metal.
To me, Drakon variant 2, rider variant 3, and the second shield and lance have a bit of darkness about them, so maybe it's pulling double duty, and we've also the first look at a new Twilight Kin unit as well.
That's understandable. Their recent metals have ranged from okay (cthulhumen) to garbage (elf chariots) while the plastics are doing nothing but improving. The new GSPC troops in HIPS are very good indeed.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Micky wrote: The issues with the old restic models were more to do with the models and their design, rather than the material they were made from.
The Original (pre-KOWKS1) Mantic restic models (Undead Cavalry, etc) were actually decent. The KOWKS1 ones ranged from decent (Ogres) to hot garbage (take your pick) and the casting quality took a huge nosedive - probably in part because of the rushed production. Dreadball S1 had and exacerbated the same issues, as did a few of the following campaigns (*not to mention Sedition Wars and others who also used the same material for models that didn't gel well with the material) which resulted in a huge consumer backlash against the stuff.
Sometimes it feels like the people in Mantic can be a little too Nottingham old school, and choosing metal for these would go a ways to supporting that feeling.
That and the fact that Mantic's multipart metal models seem to lack the most basic of necessities - tabs. Yes you generally want to pin things, but lining them up is often helped by a decent tab, and things like heads and even arms are much easier to do with a ball and socket join. Considering a lot of the stuff is designed digitally.
judgedoug wrote: Thankfully the heady days of 2012/2013 are fairly long gone and the Deadzone 2 and Warpath and TWD kickstarters have released awesomely sculpted models in plastic. No more restic, thank fething christ.
For the larger models, I actually quite like restic.
I never hated it nearly as much as some folks, though.
The Auld Grump
Me either. Excepting the bendiness now and then it's a decent material.
Bleh, I dunno, assembling Striders for Warpath right now and those mold lines still suck.
There's no reason for restic/pvc now when there's the superior DUST studios plastic they've been using for the other bigger models.
nota bene for anyone reading - material is not confirmed, and I doubt it will be restic, so please do not assume they will be in restic and start three pages of complaints
Agreed that digital renders followed by Dust plastic would probably be the best outcome.
I don't expect it through since it's a lot more faffing about, and no doubt has a much longer lead/production time, and production costs with tooling, etc than a blind sculptor and in-house metal casting.
Well, I did read a rumour that Mantic are busy setting up an in-house resin casting facility, so maybe resin dragon and metal figure? Or resin for both? One can hope
Mantic are bringing resin casting in-house from January and will be making some kits (particularly large infantry) in resin. Once the molds wear out for some existing metal kits, such as Wyrm Riders, they'll convert them to resin.
New hard plastic Basilean Men At Arms and entirely new Drakons (might be one of the early resin releases)
Micky wrote: The issues with the old restic models were more to do with the models and their design, rather than the material they were made from.
I will admit to liking the restic trolls - I painted a face on one of the rocks, so the troll is having an argument with a rock... (and losing*).
The Auld Grump
* When used in a role playing game, that troll was actually smarter than most trolls - the rock with a face on it was a conceit that he used to hide the fact that he was smarter.... 'What's that Sally? You think I should send some boys to the left? Okay, but I'm not sure that's a good idea!'
Today's Newsletter said something about a Dungeon Saga reprint.. is that going to be with errata and actual editing or is it just going to be available again?
MLaw wrote: Today's Newsletter said something about a Dungeon Saga reprint.. is that going to be with errata and actual editing or is it just going to be available again?
The drakon designs are a vast improvement over the first ones - how could they not be? But not for the first time I wish a fantasy concept artist knew almost as much about animals as they do about grumpy guys clenching their fists and thrusting their crotches out. And that strap passing through the wing membrane seems like a clumsy misstep...
The frogs look nice from what I can see. Can't look at that green for long before my retinas start to itch.
Do you mean too heavy to carry to games or too heavy to hold together after assembly?
Both. The Drakons will have the same problem if they're metal instead of resin too.
Cannot be worse than the GW Metal Juggernauts
But I look forward to get more Resin stuff.
I avoid metal for game models as much as possible and won't buy the new stuff until it is available in resin
Do you mean too heavy to carry to games or too heavy to hold together after assembly?
Both. The Drakons will have the same problem if they're metal instead of resin too.
Well, the weight is not negotiable with metal (though it can potentially be lessened by making the minis hollow), but it's absolutely possible to design metal multipart figures so that they hold together well despite the weight.
Having the components slot together with square pegs for example.
The drakons and wyrmriders have a problem with high point of gravity if made in metal, but that shouldn't be an issue with these crab-creatures since they're much more squat.
They're still going to make a multibase that's going to be annoyingly heavy, even if they can go and stay together without pinning.
If they require pinning, then I'm not interested, I'd rather get a "whittle your own mini from this block of balsa" kit than do any pinning at all. Can never drill the holes right, ever.
What I'm trying to say is that I think metal is the worst material for minis, and the only place I accept it is in 15mm or smaller scale single piece cast historicals.
NTRabbit wrote: They're still going to make a multibase that's going to be annoyingly heavy, even if they can go and stay together without pinning.
If they require pinning, then I'm not interested, I'd rather get a "whittle your own mini from this block of balsa" kit than do any pinning at all. Can never drill the holes right, ever.
What I'm trying to say is that I think metal is the worst material for minis, and the only place I accept it is in 15mm or smaller scale single piece cast historicals.
Well, then I only got one thing to say "If you're not into metal, you are not my friend! "
Since I discovered the proper technique, I've never had a problem with pinning again: Drill a hole in one of the pieces that's going to be pinned together. Place a small bit of bluetac on the other piece where it's hole will be. Lubricate the bluetac with water, vaseline or a lick of saliva. Push the pieces together into their final position. When you remove the pieces, you now have a protruding pip of bluetac right where the opposing hole should go. Mark it by making a mark with a pin or a knife, right in the pip and then drill on the mark.
I suppose the debate on the pros and cons of Metal! is better to have in another thread though, so I'll leave it here.
At all of those stages I fail to drill in the correct spot, because my hands aren't steady enough to hold any kind of drill, and a minis part, and make them function properly without missing the target by a ruinous amount or drilling into my hand.
It's just so much effort for so little reward - and on top of that, metal minis are a bitch to paint properly, even worse when they have sharp edges that cause the paint to flake off by looking at them wrong.
Someone needs to tell Mantic to pawn off all their metal casting gear, and use the money to buy more tubs of two part resin
Seriously: get a dremel (and variable diameter chuck, of course). That fether's a friend for life
And please, please don't pry their hands off of the metal casting gear... Their metal casting quality is marginal at best and resin is a fair bit trickier and can't be recycled (mostly) besides so they'll be even less inclined to do any bloody QC than they already seem to be.
I'm reaaaally not all that happy with the idea of Mantic trying their hand at resin, TBH...
Bolognesus wrote: Seriously: get a dremel (and variable diameter chuck, of course). That fether's a friend for life
And please, please don't pry their hands off of the metal casting gear... Their metal casting quality is marginal at best and resin is a fair bit trickier and can't be recycled (mostly) besides so they'll be even less inclined to do any bloody QC than they already seem to be.
I'm reaaaally not all that happy with the idea of Mantic trying their hand at resin, TBH...
Based on the greater earth elemental and Abyssal Fiend more resin is a worse idea than metal. The gaps on both were amateurish, I had to build the shoulder joints into the elemental and the groin &back on the fiend due to the gaps where they weren't even close to a good fit
But the greater abyssal and elementals weren't cast in- house, were they? Who knows how the new resins will turn out then.
I still don't see why they don't pursue some of these chunkier figures in the board gaming plastics like they did with Deadzone.
The detail holds, the figures are solid and durable, and even at smaller scales with factions like the Veer- myn the stuff really works. It's not like they need to have integrated bases, or come preassembled either.
Is it really that much more economical to do units in large numbers in metal instead? Or chunkier figures in resin?
Too expensive without KS money to pay for the tools supposedly, even though they're cheaper than they used to be plastic injection tooling still isn't cheap
(probably based on bad memories of those terrible goblin HIPS spues that never made their cash back)
Bolognesus wrote: Seriously: get a dremel (and variable diameter chuck, of course). That fether's a friend for life
I've got a dremel, doesn't make a difference.
The only tool that might make a difference is a full on variable speed drill press, but it still won't help on really small pieces without a special clamp, and who has the money for something like that anyway? Way easier to just not buy metal minis.
Metal is ok for characters but gets heavy real quick for units. I dont mind metal monsters, my metal LotR trolls are very solid and sturdy without pinning.
I wish they would do models that have larger potential sales in plastic. it may be a risk but get it right and sales will come if the models are good enough.
Bolognesus wrote: Seriously: get a dremel (and variable diameter chuck, of course). That fether's a friend for life
I've got a dremel, doesn't make a difference.
The only tool that might make a difference is a full on variable speed drill press, but it still won't help on really small pieces without a special clamp, and who has the money for something like that anyway? Way easier to just not buy metal minis.
Clothespin for the pressure, some plasticine to hold the bit in place a bit more snugly(this is reusable effectively forever) and a small machine clamp to hold the washing pin. Get creative man
/OT: most frustrating thing is that neither the gigas nor the wyrmriders (which I seem to recall were getting switched over) really 'work' as gaming models in either material, ideally. If they could just cast the wyrms and giga bodies in resin with the legs and the wyrm riders (and weapons, in particular!) in metal it might almost be worth risking a bet on Mantic's idea of QC on resin. But doing small infantry in resin? Gah, not pleasant.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: Too expensive without KS money to pay for the tools supposedly, even though they're cheaper than they used to be plastic injection tooling still isn't cheap
(probably based on bad memories of those terrible goblin HIPS spues that never made their cash back)
Heh, I liked those gobbos! (The Men at Arms on the other hand, were a complete waste of plastic. )
Clothespin for the pressure, some plasticine to hold the bit in place a bit more snugly(this is reusable effectively forever) and a small machine clamp to hold the washing pin. Get creative man
And by that stage it's gone well past the amount of time and resource I'm willing to invest just to assemble one solitary mini. Metal is just almost a total non starter with me in 28mm, and I can't imagine a world of minis before resin or plastic became things, where there was no choice but to put up with it.
And by that stage it's gone well past the amount of time and resource I'm willing to invest just to assemble one solitary mini. Metal is just almost a total non starter with me in 28mm, and I can't imagine a world of minis before resin or plastic became things, where there was no choice but to put up with it.
Quality, well-cast single-piece metals are a thing of beauty. Much easier to prep and paint than mutipart plastics or resin.
Multipart metals are hit and miss. With way too many misses.
I have learned that lesson with Napoleonics: single piece metals from a good sculptor (Perry, Front Rank, etc) are infinitely superior to multipart plastics.
However, the best compromise has been with Warlord plastics - usually 3 pieces - body, backpack, and choice of head.
judgedoug wrote: I have learned that lesson with Napoleonics: single piece metals from a good sculptor (Perry, Front Rank, etc) are infinitely superior to multipart plastics.
However, the best compromise has been with Warlord plastics - usually 3 pieces - body, backpack, and choice of head.
Depends on genre and period. Blackpowder warfare uses a bunch of marching poses, so single or 3 piece is desirable. Medievals are more dynamic and thus posabillity is key.
I prefer mono-pose (or nearly so, only with equipment or "greeble" choices, like newer GW kits) as well. It's simply not possible to get the same dynamism from a multi-pose kit. It's not often you see a multi-pose sculpture in a museum that's one reason why I love Oldhammer, everything was mono-pose and each sculpt was completely unique. It's also why I love newer masters of mono-pose stuff like Hasslefree, Kingdom Death, and others.
they look more dynamic, but only as small scale skirmish models.
having only 5 different ones, and limited general model pose (the same 5 dynamic poses on all models across al factions) is ok if there are only 10-20 models on the table.
For good looking "not Napoleonic marching in line" regiments I prefer pose able stuff.
To be honest, that's akin to saying perfection is enough. Perry's have the right mix of obvious go to together well options and with a bit of fidgeting, massive flexibility. Track down LAF's Captain Blood threads for examples.
I have enough Perry models at home (Napoleonic, DAK, WotR) and mixed/converted them with the stuff from other companies.
their solution of "semi" dynamic poses with free posable and optional parts (arms, weapons, heads etc) is the best solution for R&F systems.
GW's monopose does not work for that because not only the models can be build in only one way (without the use of GS and good modelling skills) but the arrangement in the unit had no variation (dark elves witches can only be put in one order next to each other and only allow 5 in a row without multibasing) and that made all regiment identical and looking like the first plastic regiments in the late 90's.
this would be acceptable if the were cheap, but not for a premium price.
It works for small skirmish systems, like BB.
The poses are still over the top for some models but having identical models twice is not a problem
on the other hand, fully pose able models with separate body, legs, arms, hands etc like the AoW dwarfs are too much for R&F, but work well for Skirmish games (like SAGA) were the GW models look cheap and the army has no variation (60 models, all with the same basic pose and only 5 different models)
The Mantic Elves etc are in the same style as the Perry models and if they would add upgrade sprues or resin upgrades with weapons it work out better than just make new metal or restic monopose models.
Enforcer are a also well done and from the model design superior to GW's Space Marine range
If I have an army, I want to have some variation on the models
if each regiment in KoW looks identical the premium GW Monopose models are not worth it, not matter if the 5 models on the sprue look better.
Also for a mass skirmish game I want each unit to have its unique look and not just a variation of the same 5 dynamic poses on 60 models.
Quality, well-cast single-piece metals are a thing of beauty. Much easier to prep and paint than mutipart plastics or resin.
But generally they are quite flat and 2d.
Flatter than a multipart plastic, yes. But how flat and 2d is very much based on the sculptor's skill and understanding of the medium, along with the ability of the casters. Lots of models out there that have plenty of movement and "3d" in them...
Agreed on the great sculpts though when done right.
Quality, well-cast single-piece metals are a thing of beauty. Much easier to prep and paint than mutipart plastics or resin.
But generally they are quite flat and 2d.
Flatter than a multipart plastic, yes. But how flat and 2d is very much based on the sculptor's skill and understanding of the medium, along with the ability of the casters. Lots of models out there that have plenty of movement and "3d" in them...
Even that's not necessarily true. The recent Blood and Plunder miniatures are all single piece metals (with the exception of a couple characters with a separate arm) and are more dynamically posed and have greater detail (no undercuts) than the vast majority of similarly sized multipart plastics. Plus, almost no cleanup and no prep time
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kodos wrote: I hate those new Monopose stuff from GW.
they look more dynamic, but only as small scale skirmish models.
having only 5 different ones, and limited general model pose (the same 5 dynamic poses on all models across al factions) is ok if there are only 10-20 models on the table.
Depends on the kit. For example, I have over 20 Putrid Blightkings and none are the same. The 5-model kit itself has 13 official poses thanks to the overabundance of extra parts. Each body has two completely different ways to be assembled (three for each of the command models) And that's not even including converting.
Quality, well-cast single-piece metals are a thing of beauty. Much easier to prep and paint than mutipart plastics or resin.
But generally they are quite flat and 2d.
Flatter than a multipart plastic, yes. But how flat and 2d is very much based on the sculptor's skill and understanding of the medium, along with the ability of the casters. Lots of models out there that have plenty of movement and "3d" in them...
And on the skill of the mold maker -
This is a one piece model - and the moldline follows along the edges of both weapons - the mold was itself a piece of art.
Quality, well-cast single-piece metals are a thing of beauty. Much easier to prep and paint than mutipart plastics or resin.
But generally they are quite flat and 2d.
Flatter than a multipart plastic, yes. But how flat and 2d is very much based on the sculptor's skill and understanding of the medium, along with the ability of the casters. Lots of models out there that have plenty of movement and "3d" in them...
Even that's not necessarily true. The recent Blood and Plunder miniatures are all single piece metals (with the exception of a couple characters with a separate arm) and are more dynamically posed and have greater detail (no undercuts) than the vast majority of similarly sized multipart plastics. Plus, almost no cleanup and no prep time
Just emphasising my point even further, Doug. But those are amongst the best out there, and aren't typical - just as the Stonehaven ones (much as I like them) are extra-flat.
Flatter than a multipart plastic, yes. But how flat and 2d is very much based on the sculptor's skill and understanding of the medium, along with the ability of the casters. Lots of models out there that have plenty of movement and "3d" in them...
And on the skill of the mold maker -
Spoiler:
This is a one piece model - and the moldline follows along the edges of both weapons - the mold was itself a piece of art.
The Auld Grump
Indeed. I mentally considered the mould makers to be one and the same as the casters - the casters being an entity rather than just the guys who pour, though as you correctly point out, this isn't nearly always the case.
Depends on the kit. For example, I have over 20 Putrid Blightkings and none are the same. The 5-model kit itself has 13 official poses thanks to the overabundance of extra parts. Each body has two completely different ways to be assembled (three for each of the command models) And that's not even including converting.
True, Blightkings are a good kit but expensive and the exception to the rule as there are no other new kits with the same possibilities.
Depends on the kit. For example, I have over 20 Putrid Blightkings and none are the same. The 5-model kit itself has 13 official poses thanks to the overabundance of extra parts. Each body has two completely different ways to be assembled (three for each of the command models) And that's not even including converting.
True, Blightkings are a good kit but expensive and the exception to the rule as there are no other new kits with the same possibilities.
Not at all, pretty much all Warhammer infantry kits in the last several years are like this, from Stormcast Liberators to Khorne dudes, etc. All models can be assembled in minimum of 2 ways and then a third way for command. Since they are designed digitally, this makes their possible poses a hell of a lot more natural than traditional "marionette" multi-pose/multi-option models. It's quite brilliant as "5 models" often means 13+ poses that all look better than a traditional 5 multi-part-option model kit.
I also thought they were expensive until I got a kit, and realized that the detail and size of them puts them better than and cheaper than many similarly sized resin kits (or even metal, such as Heresy monsters). And now that GW is actually lowering prices...
Not at all, pretty much all Warhammer infantry kits in the last several years are like this, from Stormcast Liberators to Khorne dudes, etc. All models can be assembled in minimum of 2 ways and then a third way for command. Since they are designed digitally, this makes their possible poses a hell of a lot more natural than traditional "marionette" multi-pose/multi-option models. It's quite brilliant as "5 models" often means 13+ poses that all look better than a traditional 5 multi-part-option model kit.
Then you got different kits than me, because mine are all just the Monopose stuff with the only option is 1 unit Leader and different weapons
Legs/arms are all fixed to one pose if you don't use a knife and GreenStuff.
especially the new Khorne and Stormcast stuff.
talking about the Liberators, even on the promo pics even the 5 dudes have only 2 different pose
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/99020218001_Liberatorsbundle01.jpg
And now the finally lower their prices, because I guess super expensive monopose models did not sell well
Not at all, pretty much all Warhammer infantry kits in the last several years are like this, from Stormcast Liberators to Khorne dudes, etc. All models can be assembled in minimum of 2 ways and then a third way for command. Since they are designed digitally, this makes their possible poses a hell of a lot more natural than traditional "marionette" multi-pose/multi-option models. It's quite brilliant as "5 models" often means 13+ poses that all look better than a traditional 5 multi-part-option model kit.
Then you got different kits than me, because mine are all just the Monopose stuff with the only option is 1 unit Leader and different weapons
Legs/arms are all fixed to one pose if you don't use a knife and GreenStuff.
especially the new Khorne and Stormcast stuff.
talking about the Liberators, even on the promo pics even the 5 dudes have only 2 different pose
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/99020218001_Liberatorsbundle01.jpg
And now the finally lower their prices, because I guess super expensive monopose models did not sell well
Massive increase of profits tell a different story but blah blah blah wrong thread GW is wrong if they sell their models for price A and they are wrong if they lower them to price B blah blah
Not gonna get drawn into some argument about preferences. I must have different kits than you, as mine are all fairly different from each other once I assembled them. The new Tzaangors are even better.
Dunno if it's been said, but for those curious about the release date for the missing individual Trident Realm units from the big boxes, like the Leviathan's Bane, somebody asked on the Mantic forum last Friday, and MG itself answered:
"Pre-order next week [i.e. this one], shipping at the end of March. Just getting the TWD stuff out of the way this week first."
I'd buy the thules in resin. The tree herder doesn't do much for me, but the final pose could make all the difference. I'm a big fan of Mantic's recent plastics, so I hope they keep producing them.
Not to get too off topic, but when and how did GW lower prices? Can someone please point me to the specific thread discussing this?
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I'd buy the thules in resin. The tree herder doesn't do much for me, but the final pose could make all the difference. I'm a big fan of Mantic's recent plastics, so I hope they keep producing them.
The salamander and Naiad kits are excellent IMO (their devil kits are also of the same quality). Keeping fingers crossed for more. A reviewer on youtube indirectly said that their quality is something that gw would have produced 6-7 years ago, but I disagree. They've made a massive jump with them.
Not to get too off topic, but when and how did GW lower prices? Can someone please point me to the specific thread discussing this?
They repackaged some of their stormcast kits - effectively lowered the model/price ratio. The new packaging is more expensive though so you end up giving them more money
must have different kits than you, as mine are all fairly different from each other once I assembled them. The new Tzaangors are even better.
if the those kits regarding the possibilities and poses, than you would love the new Mantic stuff.
Abyssals (Succubi), Elves and the SciFi plastics are a modellers dream regarding poses and possibilities in variation
Massive increase of profits tell a different story but blah blah blah wrong thread GW is wrong if they sell their models for price A and they are wrong if they lower them to price B blah blah
So have internal sources or how to you know from an overall increase of profit that 1 specific box is selling well
and I never said that I don't like the reduce in price, just that I am not surprised because I cannot believe a lot of people bought a lot of them a lot of the Liberrators for the original price (not if they could got the whole Sigmarine part of the starter Box for the same price)
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Not to get too off topic, but when and how did GW lower prices? Can someone please point me to the specific thread discussing this?
Just new releases. The Start Collecting boxes released in the last year or so have had significant (25-40%) savings and they are repackaging previously released units at a big discount. 5 models for $50 are now 10 models for $62. It's pretty great.
The start collecting boxes seem much more tempting than paying $60 for ten stormcasts. Still, that's a nice trend that I would love to see pick up in speed.
As for Mantic, any word on their redone Men at Arms? There seem to be a number of plastic fantasy troops coming out soon, so I hope Mantic make it to the market before all the money is spent.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: As for Mantic, any word on their redone Men at Arms? There seem to be a number of plastic fantasy troops coming out soon, so I hope Mantic make it to the market before all the money is spent.
I think they're supposed to be released around the summer campaign, so June/July?
Oh nooo onono. Mantic is definitely using GW's conversion rates - aka, totally invented and fake ones. . £18 is $22. Definitely order from a UK retailer that offers discounts and cheap/free shipping.
The scales on the wyrm... aren't scales. They're wide, even lines pressed (or possibly printed) into rough scale shapes on a smooth tube. They're treated like some kind of textured wallpaper, not individual 3D objects, so that you get perfectly smooth, non-overlapping snake scales, and end up with half a scale where the upper scales meet the belly scales. Not to mention the contours represent oversized comedy preschool scales.
It's not something that's apparent at first glance on the customer side of things, maybe, what with gaming mini tropes and so on, and not high on the list of priorities; but on the other side it comes across as ignorant and lazy on the part of the sculptor - and whoever else at Mantic greenlighted it. It's almost a throwback to the original drakons.
Much as I grouse and moan about GW and AoS, I'm sitting here looking at the components of the Aquilor gryph-charger in my hand. Specifically the little, natural-looking details on the forelimbs - the tiny reticulate scales of the feet and the gradient of feathers at the elbows. Maybe digitally sculpted but not impossible in putty either. I might be comparing premium minis to budget, here, but some Mantic critters could use just a drop or two of that attention. It's not difficult - the internet's full of pics of things, including snakes.
The wyrmrider... looks alright, from what I can see. There's that Mantic way of painting metallics that turns overfiligreed armour into a beige blob. (D'you think it's meant to be brass armour, or is that meant to be verdigris all over gold?)
Vermis wrote: The scales on the wyrm... aren't scales. They're wide, even lines pressed (or possibly printed) into rough scale shapes on a smooth tube. They're treated like some kind of textured wallpaper, not individual 3D objects, so that you get perfectly smooth, non-overlapping snake scales, and end up with half a scale where the upper scales meet the belly scales. Not to mention the contours represent oversized comedy preschool scales.
It's not something that's apparent at first glance on the customer side of things, maybe, what with gaming mini tropes and so on, and not high on the list of priorities; but on the other side it comes across as ignorant and lazy on the part of the sculptor - and whoever else at Mantic greenlighted it. It's almost a throwback to the original drakons.
Much as I grouse and moan about GW and AoS, I'm sitting here looking at the components of the Aquilor gryph-charger in my hand. Specifically the little, natural-looking details on the forelimbs - the tiny reticulate scales of the feet and the gradient of feathers at the elbows. Maybe digitally sculpted but not impossible in putty either. I might be comparing premium minis to budget, here, but some Mantic critters could use just a drop or two of that attention. It's not difficult - the internet's full of pics of things, including snakes.
The wyrmrider... looks alright, from what I can see. There's that Mantic way of painting metallics that turns overfiligreed armour into a beige blob. (D'you think it's meant to be brass armour, or is that meant to be verdigris all over gold?)
So, you're suggesting I'm easily pleased by a long, textured tube?
I don't suppose the scales would work as some kind of armor over smooth eel skin, like a Snork take on Dragon Princes of Caledor? Otherwise use it as in-universe cosplay for Warpath?
5 models for $50 are now 10 models for $62. It's pretty great.
Which is only pretty great if you take their previous prices as a baseline.
10 models for $62 isn't pretty great. It's just an improvement over their previous prices.
5 models for $50 are now 10 models for $62. It's pretty great.
Which is only pretty great if you take their previous prices as a baseline.
10 models for $62 isn't pretty great. It's just an improvement over their previous prices.
10 huge models on 40mm bases for $6.2 per model isn't pretty great? Okay then.
5 models for $50 are now 10 models for $62. It's pretty great.
Which is only pretty great if you take their previous prices as a baseline.
10 models for $62 isn't pretty great. It's just an improvement over their previous prices.
10 huge models on 40mm bases for $6.2 per model isn't pretty great? Okay then.
Except there not huge models, large certainly but there mostly detail free and simplistic plus $6.20 for line troops still sucks.
They still work out more than gold swords and witch elves the previous platnium standard for GW overcharging.
5 models for $50 are now 10 models for $62. It's pretty great.
Which is only pretty great if you take their previous prices as a baseline.
10 models for $62 isn't pretty great. It's just an improvement over their previous prices.
10 huge models on 40mm bases for $6.2 per model isn't pretty great? Okay then.
It really isn't. This is a post-Bones, easy-HIPs world we live in now.
10 huge models on 40mm bases for $6.2 per model isn't pretty great? Okay then.
paying 6$ for something that is worth 1$ and can be bought for 3$ or less via the starter set is not great
it is still cheaper to buy the Sigmarine halve of the starter set (or get the whole starter and sell the Khorne stuff) than to get the standard units on their own
5 models for $50 are now 10 models for $62. It's pretty great.
Which is only pretty great if you take their previous prices as a baseline.
10 models for $62 isn't pretty great. It's just an improvement over their previous prices.
10 huge models on 40mm bases for $6.2 per model isn't pretty great? Okay then.
you're knee-deep in Mantic territory right now, where these models are worth $10 EACH
you're knee-deep in Mantic territory right now, where these models are worth $10 EACH
Spoiler:
It's not entirely fair slapping the mantic "noob" (no offense, man) with the picture of the beefed up trolls with no additional info . To be honest they're not much taller (though they're broader) than a stormcast.
you're knee-deep in Mantic territory right now, where these models are worth $10 EACH
Spoiler:
It's not entirely fair slapping the mantic "noob" (no offense, man) with the picture of the beefed up trolls with no additional info . To be honest they're not much taller (though they're broader) than a stormcast.
Was about to chime in as well. I've seen those in the flesh and I wouldn't hold them up as anything better than the clumps they are. They're the same height as a stormcast and far more limited.
*edit* Realized my sarcasm detector failed on Judgedoug.
5 models for $50 are now 10 models for $62. It's pretty great.
Which is only pretty great if you take their previous prices as a baseline.
10 models for $62 isn't pretty great. It's just an improvement over their previous prices.
10 huge models on 40mm bases for $6.2 per model isn't pretty great? Okay then.
you're knee-deep in Mantic territory right now, where these models are worth $10 EACH
Still cheaper than the horror that is the pumbagor at 24$ or the Minotaur's at 50$ and then there are the monkey rats,monkey elves and let us not forget that it was only a few years ago that they took insane clown posse nagash off sale.
Both company's have some real stinkers but GW tend to double down by there most expensive miniatures being some of the ugliest.
Now at the risk of actually providing something at least a little on topic I just received my recent Mantic order I made to check out the new resins. They at first glance look great although they are quite delicate looking so time will tell how we there resin holds up to the rigours of transport.
They have nice detail and no issues with the casts themselves but while I understand that the Thull only exist due to being cast in resin and I do like them, I kinda wish they had lead with the wyrm captain or another model with a bit more of the wow factor so to speak rather than a line infantry unit.
I took some photos but I am on my Fire and had not realised how naff the camera is so I will take some more pics on my phone and add them.
So does anyone have the recently released Trident Realms figures (Riverguard, Water Elementals etc) assembled yet? And if so, are you satisfied with them?
SeanDrake wrote: Still cheaper than the horror that is the pumbagor at 24$ or the Minotaur's at 50$ and then there are the monkey rats,monkey elves and let us not forget that it was only a few years ago that they took insane clown posse nagash off sale.
Both company's have some real stinkers but GW tend to double down by there most expensive miniatures being some of the ugliest.
Oh no doubt, the minotaurs are laughably bad as are the skaven action figure things and a dozen other kits GW makes that are stupidly bad. Stormcast ain't one of 'em. Even at the original price point, Liberators for 10 bucks apiece, are still better engineered plastic kits than anything Mantic offers and are still an insane value for money (at ten bucks apiece, let alone six bucks apiece, they are the same size as other companies' resin and metal offerings that are over twice the price). Hell, the last 18months of GW releases have been some of the best in the company's history. The entire Tzeentch line is a masterpiece. This coming from a dude who has spent more money on Mierce in the last few years than on utility bills... and who owns several hundred Mantic Orcs and Goblins, fully painted.
OMG I loved the concepts for the little octomen but not with a resin support bar across the tentacles. That's a nightmare evening rife with frustration.
if they are good or not is a personal opinion
I don't like the aesthetic of the new Tzeentch stuff while Stormcast are ok.
Not as Sigmarines in AoS (Space Marines in Fantasy is stupid), but they fit will as a conversion basis for Archaens in A Fantastic SAGA (thats why I have them here and can compare them to the rest)
the general quality of the new GW kits is not better than the old ones or plastic kits of other companies (specially the new Warpath Stuff from Mantic)
from a design point of view they are average and just have a lot of bits instead of real variation (regarding poses and build).
SeanDrake wrote: Still cheaper than the horror that is the pumbagor at 24$ or the Minotaur's at 50$ and then there are the monkey rats,monkey elves and let us not forget that it was only a few years ago that they took insane clown posse nagash off sale.
Both company's have some real stinkers but GW tend to double down by there most expensive miniatures being some of the ugliest.
Oh no doubt, the minotaurs are laughably bad as are the skaven action figure things and a dozen other kits GW makes that are stupidly bad. Stormcast ain't one of 'em. Even at the original price point, Liberators for 10 bucks apiece, are still better engineered plastic kits than anything Mantic offers and are still an insane value for money (at ten bucks apiece, let alone six bucks apiece, they are the same size as other companies' resin and metal offerings that are over twice the price). Hell, the last 18months of GW releases have been some of the best in the company's history. The entire Tzeentch line is a masterpiece. This coming from a dude who has spent more money on Mierce in the last few years than on utility bills... and who owns several hundred Mantic Orcs and Goblins, fully painted.
OMG I loved the concepts for the little octomen but not with a resin support bar across the tentacles. That's a nightmare evening rife with frustration.
While I, too, love the stormcast eternals (at least the starter set versions, as I only own those), $10 bucks apiece is a piece too far. Three or four dollars each (depending on the unit and pose) just happens to be the ceiling for me for pretty much any plastic noncharacter minis. I think we approach minis differently, you and I. The more minis I already own, the better value per dollar a miniature needs to be for me to buy it. Mantic is hitting the ratio by reducing the prices as much as by increasing the quality of their minis. GW still prices most of their minis out of my shopping cart.
And for the love of god, stop giving the GW minotaurs such a bad rap! There's a thing they were aiming for that was unconventional, and they nailed it. They made some unpopular choices, but they nailed it. Leave GW minotaurs alone!
kodos wrote: the general quality of the new GW kits is not better than the old ones or plastic kits of other companies (specially the new Warpath Stuff from Mantic)
that's just straight up false. Mantic makes pretty alright plastics, and of course, who knows what's coming next now that they're having to swtich to another factory. They're good for the price. The parts fits are often awkward (Forge Father torsos, jfc). Better quality than Victrix (mold line city), not as good as Renedra (esp Perry)- except for the Renedra kits they already made, like the zombos and ghouls. Tooling is not as precise as GW or WGF. To be honest I wish Mantic would contract with WGF for tooling, like DFG and Wyrd and KD are doing. But GW plastics engineering is literally generations ahead of Mantic's.
kodos wrote: if they are good or not is a personal opinion
Not as Sigmarines in AoS (Space Marines in Fantasy is stupid),
The problem is that my respect for your opinion begins and ends with that, unfortunately.
I've not understood this weird bigotry that people have for Stormcast Eternals - it requires intense logical twists to ignore the entirety of the Chaos pantheon existing simultaneously in two of GW's IPs, let alone the hundreds of crossover models they've been doing since the mid/late 1980's, to be faux-apalled at Stormcast Eternals being "Space Marines in Fantasy". That requires a huge amount of effort to ignore that Space Marines are ALREADY Future Fantasy Space Knights with Guns From 2000AD Comics. The point where you should start is: Space Marines are stupid. Future Fantasy Space Knights are stupid. Knights in SPAAAAAACE is stupid. Stormcast Eternals are big lightning-powered Fantasy Warriors, not Fantasy Space Knights In Space But Now Back In Fantasy (and hey, btw, thanks Mantic, for making Enforcers, my favorite 28mm sci fi figs on the market)
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BobtheInquisitor wrote: While I, too, love the stormcast eternals (at least the starter set versions, as I only own those), $10 bucks apiece is a piece too far. Three or four dollars each (depending on the unit and pose) just happens to be the ceiling for me for pretty much any plastic noncharacter minis. I think we approach minis differently, you and I. The more minis I already own, the better value per dollar a miniature needs to be for me to buy it. Mantic is hitting the ratio by reducing the prices as much as by increasing the quality of their minis. GW still prices most of their minis out of my shopping cart.
See, I already own a ton of minis, like you. So therefore new minis I buy need to stand out. I mean, I'm happy paying about a buck apiece for monopose single piece (or very close to single, like, three piece) plastics for my Napoleonics, etc. Gosh, even less for Victrix, like less than 50 cents each in some cases. But despite my affinity for hundreds - well, let's be honest - thousands of plastic historical minis I own, I also have no problem setting aside my general hatred for GW circa 2008-2015. They've made a lot of great moves recently especially in the design department. Every AOS plastics release is an engineering marvel. I still cannot comprehend how some of the single piece plastic characters were made due to the insanely genius tooling. And because of that, I've bought more GW in the last 18 months than I had in the previous 15 years and yeah, most of GW's stuff is not worth MSRP - but let's not kid ourselves, nothing is worth MSRP. The aforementioned Mantic trolls, and gosh, most of the restic/pvc stuff (except the pretty great Gore riders) - are worth basically nothing. So, yeah, highly complex, well engineered, fantastic models, like, say, my giant Nurgle Rotbringers army, totally worth the price I paid. I have no upper limit when it comes to the quality of models, whether it's Mierce or GW, tbh.
The Mantic Trolls really are worth nothing or less. Like the Men at Arms, they probably harm Mantic's reputation more every time a new customer accidentally buys a box.
I've bought a lot of Mantic stuff over the last couple of years, but almost never at full price, so perhaps they need a readjustment there. The Enforcer Peacekeepers, GCPS troops and Asterian Marionettes might be worth MSRP... unless it went up again with that BS exchange rate. Their boardgame plastic, however, seems to have the best potential. They should make larger units from that material, and price them accordingly, taking advantage of the material's strengths and economy of scale the way Bones did with all of their Giants and dragons. Resculped Drakon that looked as good and fit as well as Jetbike Blaine? Yes, please.
I would play the devil's advocate for a second.. I'm also in the camp of owning a ton of models. When I see those Mantic trolls.. I really don't see Mantic Trolls. I see an armature or conversion fodder. The construction and massive lack of detail means they're a lot easier than most other "larger than man-sized" figures. That said, they would have to be stupid cheap for that justification to take hold and I do realize it's fairly situational. Between D&D prepaints, Bones, GW armies, etc. though, the only trolls I would be looking for would be things so specific I would end up sculpting it myself. While I don't believe my situation would apply to like 80% of potential customers, I would buy those before GW OK for conversions all day. As a base model though.. yeah they're kinda garbage. (I am fond of the character with the chops though)
If they only hadn't given their trolls the legs of arthritic goblins, I too could see the possibility for plain conversion fodder.
As it is now, only the torsos are suitable to make "larger than man-sized" figures, but the legs... not so much.
The Zombie trolls (regular and Dungeon saga ones) are a lot better proportioned though, so maybe Mantic has finally started to leave the tiny-legs-phase behind them now,
IMO the thuul's tentacles will snap as soon as I try to cut the holding bar - resin is hard and the act of cutting will create enough mechanical stress to snap at least one of the tentacles. Also, wwile I'm a complete dilettante in the field, the idea of having a master silicon mould that is used to create additional moulds (of arguably lesser quality than the master as silicon is a softer material) combined with the fact that silicon wears off pretty fast (according to them) speaks to me of miniatures that could vastly differ in casting quality. Also, just to write silicon one more time - siicon .
The new murlocs, though, are all metal (the price is very reasonable aswell IMO at 2 quid per metal model) and I'm very fond of the model itself. I'll definitely be getting atleast one box in the future.
Opinion on Mantic quality as this got touched on aswell:
Spoiler:
Concerning Mantic's quality, my opinion is that , for gaming pieces, they are excellently priced . I need a certain amount of variety just to be able to do different scenarios and mantic's more popular kits are just what a starting miniature gamer (and one that wishes to expand) needs. Once one obtains the more trivial models (everyone needs orcs, undead cavalry and skellies at some point ) he can start filling his collection with better looking and more intricate models. GW's models while technically superiour are gradually entering into the field of display pieces (hard to carry, fiddly, a lot of delicate parts), which somewhat contradicts with their use for gaming purposes( seriously I've already snapped the wings of two prosecutors). Mantic's models are gaming pieces first and display models second
CoreCommander wrote: IMO the thuul's tentacles will snap as soon as I try to cut the holding bar - resin is hard and the act of cutting will create enough mechanical stress to snap at least one of the tentacles.
I'd recommend using clippers rather than a knife to remove the holding bar.
CoreCommander wrote: the idea of having a master silicon mould that is used to create additional moulds (of arguably lesser quality than the master as silicon is a softer material) combined with the fact that silicon wears off pretty fast (according to them) speaks to me of miniatures that could vastly differ in casting quality.
the final mould is silicon, but you need something to make 20 identical minis to to make that final mould
or have a different method to make it.
cast 20 master models in silicon is the easiest way to get them done and the production minis are all of the same quality
cast 20 master models in silicon is the easiest way to get them done and the production minis are all of the same quality
My problem is that they're using a master model to make a master mould which is then used to create sub-masters which in turn are used to create the final mould. So the final model is a essentially a product of two moulds and in practice a third generation clone cast from the original. This may be the standard methodology for all I know though and I've just been in the dark until now on how miniatures are cast.
Turns out the tentacle bars come off pretty easy with no to very minor impact on the tentacle, actually the akward bit was gluing the face on when applying presure if you have fat fingers without damaging the tentacles.
SeanDrake wrote: Turns out the tentacle bars come off pretty easy with no to very minor impact on the tentacle, actually the akward bit was gluing the face on when applying presure if you have fat fingers without damaging the tentacles.
If anyone is worried for thin resin bits to snap while cutting/clipping them off, a trick is to soak them quickly in some hot water first, just like when straightening bent pieces. Since the resin is a bit malleable when warm, it wont snap if exposed to a bit of pressure.
My problem is that they're using a master model to make a master mould which is then used to create sub-masters which in turn are used to create the final mould. So the final model is a essentially a product of two moulds and in practice a third generation clone cast from the original. This may be the standard methodology for all I know though and I've just been in the dark until now on how miniatures are cast.
That is how every single metal/resin model's been cast since pretty much forever.
Next KS revealed - looks like it's all fantasy furniture and terrain.
Next week we'll have more details on our upcoming Kickstarter TerrainCrate, which will fund a huge range of plastic, pre-assembled dungeon furniture, battlefield terrain and more. Sign up to the TerrainCrate newsletter for more information.
If they had a sci fi version with guns and shield generators, I'd be pretty excited. Dungeon terrain? I'd have to dig my credit card out from under all these Renedra barrels and Bones crates in order to pledge...
It would have to be some super handy stuff.. I backed the Zealot KS and have tons of Bones etc.. plus all the other stuff that came in the Conan box (holy crap that game was a bargain).
In short sounds like 3 sets:
Dungeon set - Barrels, armour pile, treasure piles, owl, sword in stone, books, cystrals etc. - mentions a wizards lair.
Town set - fountain, sign posts
Battlefield set including walls, fences and hedges, carts
Smaller stuff in coloured plastic (probably bard game plastic like TWD) larger stuff in resin.
All these years later and people still keep saying the same incorrect things every time a company goes to KS, no matter how many times they've been corrected.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: Good God, another kickstarter? Come on Mantic, you're a grown up company now, try acting like it.
I don't think you quite grasp just how much capital is required to put out a line (of anything...) in this hobby. "Grown up" companies doesn't mean they're rolling in cash. KS is not synonymous with garage startup - it does allow a faster approach to a product deployment by not having to have the full capital required to complete the project up front, as it's funded by the target audience. Else, you'd either see large gaps while money is allocated internally, or an infusing from a traditional lending institution (which is full of other issues).
Looks great, Dungeon Saga terrain is good quality, cheap and pre-assembled so it'll be interesting to see what they do in terms of expanding that.
Does seem to be a branch outwards from their wargaming focus and more into RPG/ skirmish game accessories, can see frostgrave players finding a lot more use for the pieces than KoW players.
It could be a good setup Kickstarter for KoW skirmish, whatever is happening with that.
Hopefully we see something soon about the new Basileans. Not sure about this claim, but it seems like Northstar has managed to release 5 high quality fantasy plastic kits over the same period of time as Mantic has released 0 fantasy plastic kits. What I perceive as the underwhelming support for KoW from Mantic seems like a big missed opportunity, but I'm not plugged into the company or KoW scene, just kind of an outside observer.
Fantasy crates are nice I guess... but an actual kit release would be even nicer.
Gallahad wrote: Hopefully we see something soon about the new Basileans. Not sure about this claim, but it seems like Northstar has managed to release 5 high quality fantasy plastic kits over the same period of time as Mantic has released 0 fantasy plastic kits. What I perceive as the underwhelming support for KoW from Mantic seems like a big missed opportunity, but I'm not plugged into the company or KoW scene, just kind of an outside observer.
Fantasy crates are nice I guess... but an actual kit release would be even nicer.
I'm not sure about the timelines of the releases but Mantic has released four plastic kits fairly recently (Lower abyssals, Succubi, Salamanders, Naiads). I think at least some of those are contained in the time period of Northstar releasing 5 plastic kits. And this is in addition to a bunch of metal and restic stuff like desert-undead and neritican sea-stuff.
So kit-wise I think support for KoW has been pretty good recently, it's perhaps more an issue of getting the word out (as you seem to have missed the releases).
I also hope to see some basileans soon. Those old kits are really a (well-deserved) black mark on Mantics reputation to this day.
Gallahad wrote: Hopefully we see something soon about the new Basileans. Not sure about this claim, but it seems like Northstar has managed to release 5 high quality fantasy plastic kits over the same period of time as Mantic has released 0 fantasy plastic kits. What I perceive as the underwhelming support for KoW from Mantic seems like a big missed opportunity, but I'm not plugged into the company or KoW scene, just kind of an outside observer.
Fantasy crates are nice I guess... but an actual kit release would be even nicer.
I'm not sure about the timelines of the releases but Mantic has released four plastic kits fairly recently (Lower abyssals, Succubi, Salamanders, Naiads). I think at least some of those are contained in the time period of Northstar releasing 5 plastic kits. And this is in addition to a bunch of metal and restic stuff like desert-undead and neritican sea-stuff.
So kit-wise I think support for KoW has been pretty good recently, it's perhaps more an issue of getting the word out (as you seem to have missed the releases).
I also hope to see some basileans soon. Those old kits are really a (well-deserved) black mark on Mantics reputation to this day.
Fair point about the KS releases (if they came out in the same time frame). I am much more of a low/traditional fantasy type so none of those releases were even close to registering on my radar unlike the Northstar releases which were huge for me personally since they fit my tastes so well.
I don't think I've bought a single Mantic product since receiving the old Men at Arms in exchange for my KS cash.
I got rid of all my Basilieans. Too much effort to fix them, I sold em for cheap. Went to an old coworker who became friends with "my guy" who helps unload my stuff when I don't want it anymore and don't feel like getting robbed on what I've spent.
So whadda y'all think about Mantic and KS fulfillment?
Dungeon Saga was a disaster (they even lost Jake Thorton, one of their lead designers), but Walking Dead: All Out War was supposed to have fulfilled satisfactorily. I wasn't part of either KS, but the WD miniatures were acceptable as boardgame plastic at the FLGS. scarletsquig said the Dungeon Saga terrain was "good quality, cheap and pre-assembled", and Mantic says it's one of their best-sellers from the Dungeon Saga line. I'm just looking for more stuff I can throw into my terrain tile dungeon, for games and dioramas.
ced1106 wrote: So whadda y'all think about Mantic and KS fulfillment?
Last two - KoW2 and DZ2 - were flawless for me. MA also. DZ1 and DBX had some issues that were fixed promptly. Will back a Mantic KS with full confidence.
Will go clean up my separate post now ...
, so none of that bollocks please.
of the KOW2, I won't back any more Mantic