Thargrim wrote: I do like these new stormcast models, i'm glad to see them become more fleshed out. They might not be oozing with character but they look pretty epic regardless.
aren't the stormcast not already the biggest faction in AoS, I mean they get a lot of releases, even if its only a single character
Yeah true they have got a ton of stuff since AoS launched, I personally wouldn't mind 1-2 more character/army leader models and then that's it for the range for a little while. I really want to see undead or duardin or something different for the next couple AoS releases after this one.
If they follow the pattern of last year, we will have 6 non-stormcast big releases.
Carnikang wrote: On top of those supposed releases, there's still one more Chamber for Sigmar to open I believe. Correct me if mistaken please.
So, probably one more big Stormcast release at some point in the future.
Two I think. The Extremis chamber was covered by the Star drakes and Dracothian guard. This latest batch are from the Auxiliary chamber(a shame as I was hoping it would consist of mortal human warriors). That leaves the Sacrosanct and Ruination chambers.
Carnikang wrote: On top of those supposed releases, there's still one more Chamber for Sigmar to open I believe. Correct me if mistaken please.
So, probably one more big Stormcast release at some point in the future.
Two I think. The Extremis chamber was covered by the Star drakes and Dracothian guard. This latest batch are from the Auxiliary chamber(a shame as I was hoping it would consist of mortal human warriors). That leaves the Sacrosanct and Ruination chambers.
Carnikang wrote: On top of those supposed releases, there's still one more Chamber for Sigmar to open I believe. Correct me if mistaken please.
So, probably one more big Stormcast release at some point in the future.
Two I think. The Extremis chamber was covered by the Star drakes and Dracothian guard. This latest batch are from the Auxiliary chamber(a shame as I was hoping it would consist of mortal human warriors). That leaves the Sacrosanct and Ruination chambers.
Wasn't the Lord Veritant from the Chamber Sacrosanct?
For those who want unit cards for their own army, Attilla has made them for a number of factions. Updates & discussion can be found in the Dakka thread.
Carnikang wrote: On top of those supposed releases, there's still one more Chamber for Sigmar to open I believe. Correct me if mistaken please.
So, probably one more big Stormcast release at some point in the future.
Two I think. The Extremis chamber was covered by the Star drakes and Dracothian guard. This latest batch are from the Auxiliary chamber(a shame as I was hoping it would consist of mortal human warriors). That leaves the Sacrosanct and Ruination chambers.
Wasn't the Lord Veritant from the Chamber Sacrosanct?
Likewise I could also swear seeing the Lord Veritant is from the Chamber Sacrosanct.
Wayniac wrote: So apparently from the blurry screenshots, the Hallowed Knights mega-battalion can ignore enemy spells on a 3+. So basically, feth you Tzeentch.
And here I thought GW had changed and we would not have rampant power creep.
Ignore? At least the casters can still buff their own guys right?
Wayniac wrote: So apparently from the blurry screenshots, the Hallowed Knights mega-battalion can ignore enemy spells on a 3+. So basically, feth you Tzeentch.
And here I thought GW had changed and we would not have rampant power creep.
Ignore? At least the casters can still buff their own guys right?
Right?
I guess. It reads "When a friendly hallowed knight unit would be affected by an enemy spell, roll a die. On a roll of 3 or more, ignore the effects of the spell on this unit" or similar wording (picture was blurry so that's what I could make out)
It's only affecting spells which target them, so hardly OP since anything which buffs/summons will be untouched. What will make it OP is when the battalion contains the whole army and costs 60 points.
Ghaz wrote: Wasn't the Lord Veritant from the Chamber Sacrosanct?
Possibly, although I don't remember any background for them beyond being witch hunters. If the Sacrosanct chamber is magic themed he would fit. Hopefully the new tome should have a bit more fluff. However as the Veritant is essentially an alternate build of the Castellant I'd always assumed he was designed and intended to be releases at the same time, but got held up for some reason.
CMLR wrote:I like the Stormcasts, I liked the Lord-Achilor quite a lot, but I didn't liked this mount quite a lot, it needs far more feathers Imo, and those horns? lol nope, but I can see they have hooves instead paws on the back limbs.
Are the hooves a good or a bad thing?
While I (somehow) forgot to put "so this are not demigryphs, but something more akin to hippogryphs", try to quote the whole idea.
The paints job make it look weird, like a plucked chick-ffon? with irritated skin on the forehead. Just weird.
But now that I have seen that turquise colours, it has grown on me.
Still, the regular mounts look better imo.
Now, I'm glad with the basic troop reboxes, tbh the main drawback for me to buy some extra troops is because the price for so few models.
£30 or so for 5 Liberators or Judicators? but a Chaos Warriors Regiment has 16 models with basically the same stat profiles as them, just for £5 more.
I sincerely hope the reboxing fix the price issue.
If those birds are a reasonable price, I could see getting a set to build/paint and then figuring out what to use them as in 40K. And a lot of gryph charger elements would be easily repurposed for say Kroot mercs.
I can't seem to drop 20 for just 6 of those teeny tiny hounds.
Teeny tiny hounds? You know, they're not the size of the Silver Tower's priest gryph hound. More like the size of the Stormcast Castellant and the witch-hunter one's own gryph hounds - which means they're the size of a warg/fenrissian wolf.
Pretty much reasonable price, to me. For a GW plastic box, of course.
Those hounds are on 40mm bases, so I'd say they are the same size as the original sculpt, not the small silver tower one.
And at that price, I'm interested.
To be honest, I'm only buying some of this stuff to convert, but they aren't bad models to be fair.
Either way, I won't be needing the golden boy riders from the gryphs.
Those eagles do however look good.
None of the models look quite as regal as the one oming with the Castellant, but 20€ discounted for six exotic beasts/bodies for not-ugy Chaos puppies/even stranger quadrupeds? Yeah, I'll treat myself to a box. The gryph-chargers I really need to see a 360 of, they probably look good, but the poses look a bit extreme-y.
And the birds, how could I say no to even more of those (and wings to cut off) for my carrion bird/swamp Nurgle horde.
So far the animals are the only great thing to come out of AoS, hoping for more of those.
^
50€ for ten almost-clone warriors? Ouch. Maybe if GW puts them in a SC with the chargers one day, not before.
Requizen wrote: Here's a random question: in Japanese GW stores, are the rulebooks in Japanese or English?
I'm gonna be on vacation in Tokyo when the Stormcast book comes out and I was wondering if I could just pick it up there and have it to flip through.
Given that GW do Japanese translations of all their material, I'd wager Japanese since it's much easier to sell a game to people if it's in their own language.
Those hawk miniatures look really good!! The Stormcast mounts are cool, too, I hope the riders are completely separate. Any word on that, or whether the legs are integrated into the mount sculpt?
Requizen wrote: Here's a random question: in Japanese GW stores, are the rulebooks in Japanese or English?
I'm gonna be on vacation in Tokyo when the Stormcast book comes out and I was wondering if I could just pick it up there and have it to flip through.
They are usually in English. Don't buy anything here though. It is very expensive.
Ugh, forgot about dat markup. We'll see if my impatience is stronger than my frugality.
Use the internet to order it from the USA webstore to your USA address?
freaking site eating messages
I was more looking to have it to flip through. I'll be out of the country for a while, and while I can pick it up when I get home, I wanna do some list planning and general perusal.
CMLR wrote:While I (somehow) forgot to put "so this are not demigryphs, but something more akin to hippogryphs", try to quote the whole idea.
Aah.
MajorWesJanson wrote:If those birds are a reasonable price, I could see getting a set to build/paint and then figuring out what to use them as in 40K.
Binabik15 wrote:
And the birds, how could I say no to even more of those (and wings to cut off) for my carrion bird/swamp Nurgle horde.
I'm seeing Warmaster scale giant eagles. Either for high elves or to go with my BoFA stuff.
If you want WM scale giant eagles take a look at Malifaux Arcanist Raptors. I'd say that scale fits a bit better and they're available **today**!!
Real good models, too
nels1031 wrote: The picture in the new White Dwarf painting article has the lower torsos built onto the mount.
I didn't see any sprue pics though.
Ah, bummer. Thanks for the info though
Just got home and reread the article. The Lord Aquilor is the subject of the painting, so it's still possible that the regular dudes are separate, like the Varanguard.
I actually feel the mount's paint job is overdone, there is so much highlighting and depth of color added that it doesn't look organic anymore. It reminds me of a woman with so much makeup her face looks more like a mask than skin. It's hard for me to tell if like or dislike the color scheme past that.
CMLR wrote:While I (somehow) forgot to put "so this are not demigryphs, but something more akin to hippogryphs", try to quote the whole idea.
Aah.
MajorWesJanson wrote:If those birds are a reasonable price, I could see getting a set to build/paint and then figuring out what to use them as in 40K.
Binabik15 wrote:
And the birds, how could I say no to even more of those (and wings to cut off) for my carrion bird/swamp Nurgle horde.
I'm seeing Warmaster scale giant eagles. Either for high elves or to go with my BoFA stuff.
If I had bought Warmaster stuff instead of always putting it off to a later date that'd be a great idea. I only have a couple of chars from an ebay auction, sadly, and it's close to impossible to get more, it seems. I bet you get enough birdies (and in plastic they're light enough) to kitbash a couple of Skycutter chariots in Warmaster scale, if that's your thing.
Umm...is a chariot-centric HElves list legal in Warmaster? I have three heroes on horses...I'm getting itchy fingers
Edit: Malifaux Raptors? When did *those* come out? And I bought Austringers for their birdies like a fool.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I actually feel the mount's paint job is overdone, there is so much highlighting and depth of color added that it doesn't look organic anymore. It reminds me of a woman with so much makeup her face looks more like a mask than skin. It's hard for me to tell if like or dislike the color scheme past that.
Kind of looks like iridescent feathers though, which is presumably what they were after
nels1031 wrote: The picture in the new White Dwarf painting article has the lower torsos built onto the mount.
I didn't see any sprue pics though.
Ah, bummer. Thanks for the info though
Just got home and reread the article. The Lord Aquilor is the subject of the painting, so it's still possible that the regular dudes are separate, like the Varanguard.
Well I really hope they're separate, that would probably make me buy the kit
even if they're separate, there won't be sculpted detail underneath so you'll end up doing pretty much the same amount of work anyway. Why would it make a difference?
Bolognesus wrote: even if they're separate, there won't be sculpted detail underneath so you'll end up doing pretty much the same amount of work anyway. Why would it make a difference?
Adding a different rider isnt the same amount of work as cutting and moderately sculpting a back for repairs. Even if you plan on using it alone, its much easier to add detail to it than remove.
Bolognesus wrote: even if they're separate, there won't be sculpted detail underneath so you'll end up doing pretty much the same amount of work anyway. Why would it make a difference?
Adding a different rider isnt the same amount of work as cutting and moderately sculpting a back for repairs. Even if you plan on using it alone, its much easier to add detail to it than remove.
i checked out the Lord of Change at GW yesterday, and it is incredible!!!
the detail is almost overwhelming, as it should be for this model...
Kairos wins it for me...
so much cooler than the original...
i really look forward to painting him
i was surprised to see the Gryph-Chargers and birds spoilered in the Battle Report, Paint Splatter, and fold-out this month...they are not listed alongside the Battletome, Gryph-Hounds, and Vanguard-Hunters in this month's releases, but are still shown all over the magazine...
it's just a little thing, but i am enjoying the return of sneak peeks
i don't remember seeing it in the previews, but the Gryph-Hound pack has a head variant for the leader...
he has the cutest little Gryph helmet...
this is the most excited i have been for any Stormcast release, so far...
all of the creatures are so cool i have been lukewarm about the previous S.E. models, but they have finally won me over with the beasties...
exciting times ahead...
i can't wait to see what they do with an update of proper armored Dwarfs
jah-joshua wrote: i don't remember seeing it in the previews, but the Gryph-Hound pack has a head variant for the leader...
he has the cutest little Gryph helmet...
A little update about this weekends preorders. Alongside the book, the hunters and the hounds we are getting some repacks.
The liberators and judicators are going from $50 for 5 to $62 for 10. The prosecutors are going from $60 for 3 to $74 for 6.
I have only seen the US prices so far.
Those are flipping massive savings. I think Stormcasts are about to get even more popular now. Of note is that Paladins aren't changing at all reportedly, but I guess that's as - at least here in Australia - it was $85 for 5 Liberators - 100 points and $98 for 5 Paladins - 200-220 points. Making the core troops (and Prosecutors) cheaper was definitely the way to go as their dollar-to-points ratio was horrendous
Chikout wrote: A little update about this weekends preorders. Alongside the book, the hunters and the hounds we are getting some repacks.
The liberators and judicators are going from $50 for 5 to $62 for 10. The prosecutors are going from $60 for 3 to $74 for 6.
I have only seen the US prices so far.
Damn, I got screwed on the Judicators I bought recently. Oh well. It does make the Start Collecting a pretty terrible deal though. $32+$37+$15+$33 (for the character). Basically you're getting the character for free with the purchase and he's pretty over costed. But it dropped it from from an almost 50% discount to a 25% discount.
Some guy at Lustria-Online noticed this on the USA site:
I'm pretty sure is just an error, but I would love to see if GW upgrade the Carnosaur sprue to give more options, maybe a howdah full of skins, or maybe even a new Arcanodon sprue.
If not, I hope this means that a new Seraphon BT is going to be released soon.
But, realistically is possibly just a price reduction, because plenty of people is already buying the SC! kit instead the Carno alone.
CMLR wrote: Some guy at Lustria-Online noticed this on the USA site:
I'm pretty sure is just an error, but I would love to see if GW upgrade the Carnosaur sprue to give more options, maybe a howdah full of skins, or maybe even a new Arcanodon sprue.
If not, I hope this means that a new Seraphon BT is going to be released soon.
But, realistically is possibly just a price reduction, because plenty of people is already buying the SC! kit instead the Carno alone.
Saw the prices for the new Liberators and Judicators 10-man boxes (and Prosecutors 6-man boxes), can't remember exact price but basically prices have increased about 25% but amount of minis has increased 100%. So price/mini is nearly halved!
Vorian wrote: Wonder if they'll fix the crazy Fyreslayer prices anytime soon too
Good question. Especially as they are getting a points reduction. https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/02/07/the-generals-handbook-ii-wip-points-sneak-peek/ This also includes a points increase for tomb kings. This is all great news. It is proof that they are not abandoning compendium armies. It will also be good to see the meta change.
If 40k 8th takes one thing from AOS, I hope it is this.
Huh, interestingly enough they've pointed out that their newer battletomes ARE playtested. Interesting.
We also must updated the rumour thread, maybe? After all it's been confirmed that fyreslayers are getting at least a unique character. Or so it seems, Kraggi doesn't ring any bell.
Lord Kragan wrote: Huh, interestingly enough they've pointed out that their newer battletomes ARE playtested. Interesting.
We also must updated the rumour thread, maybe? After all it's been confirmed that fyreslayers are getting at least a unique character. Or so it seems, Kraggi doesn't ring any bell.
That's not just Fyreslayers.
It's bringing back Kraggi(the apprentice for the Anvil of Doom) and Shadowblade(Dark Elf Assassin. Really funky to have as a Leader, but okay).
Lord Kragan wrote: Huh, interestingly enough they've pointed out that their newer battletomes ARE playtested. Interesting.
We also must updated the rumour thread, maybe? After all it's been confirmed that fyreslayers are getting at least a unique character. Or so it seems, Kraggi doesn't ring any bell.
That's not just Fyreslayers.
It's bringing back Kraggi(the apprentice for the Anvil of Doom) and Shadowblade(Dark Elf Assassin. Really funky to have as a Leader, but okay).
You're right. Maybe he'll get an update, though? The old book he was 20pts. His stats aren't worth at all 100 so it may be possible that he'll be getting a new model and rules
Chikout wrote: This also includes a points increase for tomb kings. This is all great news. It is proof that they are not abandoning compendium armies. It will also be good to see the meta change.
Look at the section that the Necrosphynx, etc. are listed under. Its 'Grand Alliance Death' and not 'Tomb Kings':
Chikout wrote: This also includes a points increase for tomb kings. This is all great news. It is proof that they are not abandoning compendium armies. It will also be good to see the meta change.
Look at the section that the Necrosphynx, etc. are listed under. Its 'Grand Alliance Death' and not 'Tomb Kings':
Magmadroth changes make them pretty good, actually. With the difference in price of the old Runefather to new one, you can get a block of any of the troops, which is pretty good throughput.
Still doesn't make them super great, very vulnerable to shooting and MWs, but more affordable = better.
Chikout wrote: This also includes a points increase for tomb kings. This is all great news. It is proof that they are not abandoning compendium armies. It will also be good to see the meta change.
Look at the section that the Necrosphynx, etc. are listed under. Its 'Grand Alliance Death' and not 'Tomb Kings':
Spoiler:
I wouldn't look anything into that. It could just be made for the updates to try out. Samething for the Fyreslayers? Don't they have their own Battletomb? If not what I am going to say next doesn't matter then. It's listed under Order. So maybe this is just a quick reference sheet that has changes to them and need to be tried out.
Good thing is, no armies are going anywhere or being squatted as a few people tired to say would happen.
Nice to see price reductions and nice to see Fyreslayer point reductions!
I hope when the Duardin get redone they have a super battletome that combines Fyreslayers and all the kits get price reductions too. £40 for a box of Longbeards, Ironbreakers or Vulkite Beserkers all seems good to me!
Fyreslayers needed some reductions, mostly on Vulkite Bezerkers. At 60 per 5 they are still meh, but at least worth taking now (though the Hearthguard are still better). IMO the magmadroth reductions made them too cheap and putting all the characters at a flat 80 is kind of lazy, especially when the Battlesmith is clearly worth more than that. All in all I think this makes Fyreslayers better balanced with other armies overall but at the cost of making Forge Brethren + Lords of the Lodge lists OP, and making Magmadroth spam an easy way to dominate a casual field.
Lord Kragan wrote: Huh, interestingly enough they've pointed out that their newer battletomes ARE playtested. Interesting.
We also must updated the rumour thread, maybe? After all it's been confirmed that fyreslayers are getting at least a unique character. Or so it seems, Kraggi doesn't ring any bell.
They talked about this on HeelanHammer actually, they played both of these tomes well in advance and gave a few little teasers about how cool the new book will be.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
NinthMusketeer wrote: Fyreslayers needed some reductions, mostly on Vulkite Bezerkers. At 60 per 5 they are still meh, but at least worth taking now (though the Hearthguard are still better). IMO the magmadroth reductions made them too cheap and putting all the characters at a flat 80 is kind of lazy, especially when the Battlesmith is clearly worth more than that. All in all I think this makes Fyreslayers better balanced with other armies overall but at the cost of making Forge Brethren + Lords of the Lodge lists OP, and making Magmadroth spam an easy way to dominate a casual field.
Idk I thought they were pretty conservative with the points reductions. And I would put money down that almost EVERY behemoth in the game is getting a points drop. Except for things like the mourngul they're all a bit overcosted.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Fyreslayers needed some reductions, mostly on Vulkite Bezerkers. At 60 per 5 they are still meh, but at least worth taking now (though the Hearthguard are still better). IMO the magmadroth reductions made them too cheap and putting all the characters at a flat 80 is kind of lazy, especially when the Battlesmith is clearly worth more than that. All in all I think this makes Fyreslayers better balanced with other armies overall but at the cost of making Forge Brethren + Lords of the Lodge lists OP, and making Magmadroth spam an easy way to dominate a casual field.
Idk I thought they were pretty conservative with the points reductions. And I would put money down that almost EVERY behemoth in the game is getting a points drop. Except for things like the mourngul they're all a bit overcosted.
By what measure? Behemoths tend to beat the crap out of equal points in infantry or cavalry.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Fyreslayers needed some reductions, mostly on Vulkite Bezerkers. At 60 per 5 they are still meh, but at least worth taking now (though the Hearthguard are still better). IMO the magmadroth reductions made them too cheap and putting all the characters at a flat 80 is kind of lazy, especially when the Battlesmith is clearly worth more than that. All in all I think this makes Fyreslayers better balanced with other armies overall but at the cost of making Forge Brethren + Lords of the Lodge lists OP, and making Magmadroth spam an easy way to dominate a casual field.
Idk I thought they were pretty conservative with the points reductions. And I would put money down that almost EVERY behemoth in the game is getting a points drop. Except for things like the mourngul they're all a bit overcosted.
By what measure? Behemoths tend to beat the crap out of equal points in infantry or cavalry.
Some do, beastclaw raiders, zombie dragon with vampire lords, mourngul, durthu, but plenty don't. Gordrakk isn't worth his points in brutes, the stardrakes eats gak and dies against it's points in retributors, protectors, judicators, or any of the dracoth riders, alarielle isn't as good as her points in kurnoth hunters, the coven throne and mortis engine are overcosted, terrorgeist is hard to justify for how random it is. Nagash is absolutely terrible, most of the aelf behemoths are bad(Frostheart being the obvious exception), most of the seraphon behemoths are terrible, bloodthirsters are the same price as stormfiends, guess who wins that fight, keeper of secrets lose out to a big blob of deamonettes, and the rest all sort of fill in somewhere between 'viable' and 'well it looks really cool...'
There's always points issues of over- or under-costing, but it's more noticeable and egregious with Behemoths. When it's overcosted, this one expensive model you bring just up and dies or does nothing all game, and you feel like crap. When it's undercosted, your opponent feels bad because there's this one big model that is running around absolutely stomping them and they feel helpless against that "one OP thing". Units of things tend to feel less swing-y other than really broken/worthless ones.
Just the way I feel about it. I don't want to complain about it either - it's hard to keep singular power models like that in the nice even zone where they don't feel unbeatable by the opponent but also don't feel pointless for the player, so we'll see what happens with TGA2.0
Requizen wrote: There's always points issues of over- or under-costing, but it's more noticeable and egregious with Behemoths. When it's overcosted, this one expensive model you bring just up and dies or does nothing all game, and you feel like crap. When it's undercosted, your opponent feels bad because there's this one big model that is running around absolutely stomping them and they feel helpless against that "one OP thing". Units of things tend to feel less swing-y other than really broken/worthless ones.
Just the way I feel about it. I don't want to complain about it either - it's hard to keep singular power models like that in the nice even zone where they don't feel unbeatable by the opponent but also don't feel pointless for the player, so we'll see what happens with TGA2.0
Definitely true. And random initiative feeds into it too, since a monster could potentially move up then take two rounds of magic/shooting/charges to the face before it gets to go again or the inverse.
The teaser drop on fyreslayer points has me very hopeful for a duardin drop as well. I understand warmachines probably wont drop(if not some increase), but I want my troops and gyro's to not suck again!
Yeah, Warriors are a bit high. I think a lot of the basic dwarf troops are a bit much. The ranged troops are decently priced but the troops themselves need a drop.
Completely agree on Dispossessed, they are an infantry army with infantry that simply cost more than they should, further exacerbated by many elite units & monsters from other armies costing less.
The folks who came to the LVO were pretty honest about GH 2 and I think well received. Sylvaneth and Death seemed to make up half of the armies present and all were same build. I didnt play Syl but 4 games v same death list was disappointing.
The new regime at GW arent dumb. I would think a large point reduction for actual underperforming lists is coming.
It brings a little more balance and of course sells more models.
Uriels_Flame wrote: The new regime at GW arent dumb. I would think a large point reduction for actual underperforming lists is coming.
It brings a little more balance and of course sells more models.
I just hope this doesn't become the way to sell minis. "Oh look they Pyrovore is not selling, we need to decrease the point costs" Yes I know it's a 40K but it's the only example I can think of since I am not still familiar with Age of Sigmar units. So instead of just decreasing points, actually make the points balanced in the first place otherwise in a year or two or three, it will be back to same old "codex creep".
Uriels_Flame wrote: The new regime at GW arent dumb. I would think a large point reduction for actual underperforming lists is coming.
It brings a little more balance and of course sells more models.
I just hope this doesn't become the way to sell minis. "Oh look they Pyrovore is not selling, we need to decrease the point costs" Yes I know it's a 40K but it's the only example I can think of since I am not still familiar with Age of Sigmar units. So instead of just decreasing points, actually make the points balanced in the first place otherwise in a year or two or three, it will be back to same old "codex creep".
The issue with the Pyrovore isn't the cost, but its rules and statline. Most issue with AoS competitive are the points cost for units and the more recent Tomes having some nasty battalions. Sylvaneth will always take a battalion, because not taking one makes them worse.
Balancing points in such a complex system is all a judgement call. With the best will in the world they will never release a handbook that is universally considered balanced.
The best you will get is regularly updated to reflect the Meta - based upon the opinions of people actually regularly engaged in it.
Some people will still pick it up and think X or Y is ridiculous no matter what they do.
I just hope this doesn't become the way to sell minis. "Oh look they Pyrovore is not selling, we need to decrease the point costs" Yes I know it's a 40K but it's the only example I can think of since I am not still familiar with Age of Sigmar units. So instead of just decreasing points, actually make the points balanced in the first place otherwise in a year or two or three, it will be back to same old "codex creep".
Well why isn't the Pyrovore selling?
Because it's not good enough for the points.
So surely a points reduction is a good idea.
Saying "just make it balanced in the first place" is a bit like asking a gymnast to just nail every landing perfectly and never wobble. Yes, that's the plan - but do you have any idea how hard it is? In a game with as many moving parts as AoS - let alone 40k - it's impossible to just "get it right in the first place" every time.
An annual points adjustment for over/underperforming units is a great model for how you achieve balance.
Uriels_Flame wrote: The new regime at GW arent dumb. I would think a large point reduction for actual underperforming lists is coming.
It brings a little more balance and of course sells more models.
I just hope this doesn't become the way to sell minis. "Oh look they Pyrovore is not selling, we need to decrease the point costs" Yes I know it's a 40K but it's the only example I can think of since I am not still familiar with Age of Sigmar units. So instead of just decreasing points, actually make the points balanced in the first place otherwise in a year or two or three, it will be back to same old "codex creep".
Nobody is talking about making Archaon 20 points. It's possible to adjust points to make something a better option without making it OP, so there's no reason to worry based off that information alone.
I'm excited for the GHB 2. I think the concept is awesome and I'd like to see more units become viable. Right now my dwarves and aelf's don't really come out an play due to point costs. I realize that armies without battalions and their own battletome are going to suffer but I at least want the units themselves to be mostly viable.
Also a fair bit of the Flesheater Courts needs a look because in competitive most of the characters are paying for abilities they can't really use and the infantry units aren't quite performing at the needed level either.
Carnikang wrote:The issue with the Pyrovore isn't the cost, but its rules and statline. Most issue with AoS competitive are the points cost for units and the more recent Tomes having some nasty battalions. Sylvaneth will always take a battalion, because not taking one makes them worse.
Presumably the pyrovore's rules and statlines aren't good enough for the cost. And the sylvaneth battalions are too good for the cost.
Nice to know that the points system improved AoS, though.
Silentz wrote:Saying "just make it balanced in the first place" is a bit like asking a gymnast to just nail every landing perfectly and never wobble. Yes, that's the plan - but do you have any idea how hard it is? In a game with as many moving parts as AoS - let alone 40k - it's impossible to just "get it right in the first place" every time.
But gymnasts do these things called 'training' and 'practise', where they go over their moves and routines to see what works and what they need to work on, before they go out in front of the public. Wargames have something similar - playtesting. Sure, it won't catch every little wrinkle, just as a gymnast won't catch every little wobble or misstep, but it makes some kind of difference compared to some slob eyeing up the horse and saying "I reckon I can do that. Someone hold my pint."
'Cos people can go on about GW's two being 'too complex to balance'; but when you've got models that no-one will take because they're plain-as-your-nose not good enough, or battalions that are always taken because they're obviously better than anything else, that's not 'too complex', that's sheer laziness, incompetence, or apathy. And that's just applying Hanlon's razor to the situation.
Vermis wrote: 'Cos people can go on about GW's two being 'too complex to balance'; but when you've got models that no-one will take because they're plain-as-your-nose not good enough, or battalions that are always taken because they're obviously better than anything else, that's not 'too complex', that's sheer laziness, incompetence, or apathy. And that's just applying Hanlon's razor to the situation.
Moving into an organic rulebook is a pretty major step for GW. It implies some care about the game as a game rather than a near complete indifference to how people use their miniatures which has been the case for at least the last decade.
Ultimately GW will never get it right first time because they do not have the same play testing ability as the wider community. Why they get it so wrong (some units are obviously terrible/really good) is more of a mystery but there you go.
I guess you could say "just hire more people" - but ultimately a small team would take months to play as many games as a well attended tournament.
The only solution is to look at tournament results - which provide you hundreds and thousands of games worth of data - and consider balancing from there.
Hulksmash wrote: I'm excited for the GHB 2. I think the concept is awesome and I'd like to see more units become viable. Right now my dwarves and aelf's don't really come out an play due to point costs. I realize that armies without battalions and their own battletome are going to suffer but I at least want the units themselves to be mostly viable.
Agreed on the infantry armies, but I don't feel that battletome armies should be accepted as stronger since battalions have costs too; those should be as balanced as other options. Unfortunately battalions are largely too cheap, and the recent Tzeentch release didn't do anything about that.
RazorEdge wrote: They could add a section about playing Battles in the Old World to the Book.
You could get an old edition of almost any of th Warhammer Fantasy boks and use the stories in them with th rules of Sigmar. Its not really something they would add as a separate part, became the setting is available, if just far in the past.
From Twitter - Podcast Eternals and JJ meeting to discuss further the GHB II. Dan Heelan has also stressed this is not a one day collaboration but they have all been working together constantly.
I'm torn between optimism on one hand and my 'meh' impression from the Fyreslayer changes on the other. It seems like these guys know their stuff and are referencing feedback, but at the same time the response to an under performing faction seems to have been a blanket decrease on everything, a tactic that could be counterproductive if applied elsewhere. Yet the tomb kings were addressed differently, but somehow skeleton chariots weren't included when they are in obvious need of an increase...
Not sure what to expect.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Bottle! I summon your optimism!
NinthMusketeer wrote: I'm torn between optimism on one hand and my 'meh' impression from the Fyreslayer changes on the other. It seems like these guys know their stuff and are referencing feedback, but at the same time the response to an under performing faction seems to have been a blanket decrease on everything, a tactic that could be counterproductive if applied elsewhere. Yet the tomb kings were addressed differently, but somehow skeleton chariots weren't included when they are in obvious need of an increase...
Not sure what to expect.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Bottle! I summon your optimism!
Haha, well I think we need to focus on the experimental tagline of these new rules and that they will be running at the biggest ever AoS event (the SCGT 2017) and thus the biggest ever play testing sample group in AoS. No doubt the Fyreslayer performance and Tomb King performance is going to be closely monitored and hopefully tweaked further. (Not to mention the filthmeister himself, Kraggi).
I am against the compendium units being raised in cost to make them noncompetitive. I would rather they disallowed compendium from tournaments instead and kept them well pointed for friendly matched play games. Saying that, although the Tomb king points increases seem steep, I have seen someone post a comparison of the Necropolis Knights vs Blood Knights and they still come out at a better deal so I think these adjustments are probably necessary. I've made it known before that I trust Russ Veal's pointing, and I think him winning the masters with the Tomb Kings helped nip them in the bud before they dominated the meta from now till GHB II.
The chariots got left out simply because they weren't in the lists smashing up the UK scene. It was the Necropolis Knights. I think TK players now have a good choice between the two rather than the Snakes being the go to choice as they were so good you had to try and cram as much of them in the list as possible.
Considering that Warrior Brotherhood and Skybourne Slayers seem to be made redundant with the new Stormcast book (from the battlereport it looks like they have an army wide deepstrike rule to arrive from the sky on a 3+). I think we are going to be in for a very open meta in the run up for the GHBII.
I bought some more Fyreslayers after the points drop to test them out in my Order army! I really hope they can win SCGT2017!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, there is a whole Warhammer Community article on the update:
Bottle wrote: I've made it known before that I trust Russ Veal's pointing, and I think him winning the masters with the Tomb Kings helped nip them in the bud before they dominated the meta from now till GHB II.
Listening to the Facehammer podcasts from before and after the Master's was pretty entertaining. They debated whether Russ should take Tomb Kings since he's helping with design and it might look bad to outsiders. But he did what he promised and dominated with TK to prove a point.
Bottle wrote: I've made it known before that I trust Russ Veal's pointing, and I think him winning the masters with the Tomb Kings helped nip them in the bud before they dominated the meta from now till GHB II.
Listening to the Facehammer podcasts from before and after the Master's was pretty entertaining. They debated whether Russ should take Tomb Kings since he's helping with design and it might look bad to outsiders. But he did what he promised and dominated with TK to prove a point.
Agreed! Facehammer is by far my favourite AoS podcast. Not only can it be hilarious, but they also have the tactical skills (and painting skills) to really know what they are talking about.
Bottle wrote: Nice to see price reductions and nice to see Fyreslayer point reductions!
I hope when the Duardin get redone they have a super battletome that combines Fyreslayers and all the kits get price reductions too. £40 for a box of Longbeards, Ironbreakers or Vulkite Beserkers all seems good to me!
Still waiting for a Fyreslayers SC box. Hopefully we'll get one this year.
Vermis wrote: 'Cos people can go on about GW's two being 'too complex to balance'; but when you've got models that no-one will take because they're plain-as-your-nose not good enough, or battalions that are always taken because they're obviously better than anything else, that's not 'too complex', that's sheer laziness, incompetence, or apathy. And that's just applying Hanlon's razor to the situation.
Moving into an organic rulebook is a pretty major step for GW. It implies some care about the game as a game rather than a near complete indifference to how people use their miniatures which has been the case for at least the last decade.
Ultimately GW will never get it right first time because they do not have the same play testing ability as the wider community. Why they get it so wrong (some units are obviously terrible/really good) is more of a mystery but there you go.
I guess you could say "just hire more people" - but ultimately a small team would take months to play as many games as a well attended tournament.
The only solution is to look at tournament results - which provide you hundreds and thousands of games worth of data - and consider balancing from there.
I'm not sure it's that cut and dry because the 9th age is all about tournament balance first and foremost with the community in mind and they still end up making alot of mistakes and angering the community (if just not listening to it at all in some cases...)
Capability wise they are basic liberators in meelee with weaker versions of the judicators' gear all together. A truly generalist force with a good mobility ability, with the capability of moving 5+d6 and still shoot their somewhat decent attacks.
6.5/10 a solid new unit, though not game-breaking. Will do OK for removal of low-tier backfield units.
I can't seem to access the gryph hound warscroll, says not found like its a dead link. The vanguard hunters seem pretty cool, straightforward rules ..would it be better to give them the handaxe or saber though? I'm new to the game/rules but to me the difference seems negligible.
I really like these models though, I guess next week we get the bird riders.
GW isn't even trying to be subtle with their Land Marines.
Okay, have a medal here for being the first to re-repeat that trite comment.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thargrim wrote: I can't seem to access the gryph hound warscroll, says not found like its a dead link. The vanguard hunters seem pretty cool, straightforward rules ..would it be better to give them the handaxe or saber though? I'm new to the game/rules but to me the difference seems negligibel.
I really like these models though, I guess next week we get the bird riders.
If you're setting them as a rear-guard strike force, it's indifferent. If you have them close to a lord celestant or the like, give them the axes: they'll even the to-hit rolls and have better to wound rolls (which are harder to buff).
Solid. It'll be interesting to see their point costs. They aren't much different than Prosecutors with some tweaks and less movement. I'm interested to see their point costs.
Hulksmash wrote: Solid. It'll be interesting to see their point costs. They aren't much different than Prosecutors with some tweaks and less movement. I'm interested to see their point costs.
They don't really need that much mobility, though, since the compass will let you close in fairly fast to the enemy back-lines.
Automatically Appended Next Post: We do know the following prayers:
-God-King's aspect: enemies within 12'' of the priest add two to battleshock. Rolls of one when deciding wether the prayer activates or not result in a mortal wound.
-Abjuration: on a roll of 2+ you can unbind a spell per enemy phase until your next hero phase (so kind of decent if double turning enemy).
-Bless weapons: on a roll of something (blocked) you can make a unit get extra attacks for each roll of 6 they make more attacks. Devastating on concussors if you ask me.
-Divine light 3+ to trigger. If you target enemy units, you re-roll hits of 1. If you target ally units, enemy re-roll hits of 6.
The hunters look solid to me, looks like they will perform exactly like I'd imagine stormcast light/skirmish infantry to do. They have a solid role as outflankers and objective campers too, despite the similar statline. And unlike prosecutors they won't be super expensive for the wound count.
NinthMusketeer wrote: The hunters look solid to me, looks like they will perform exactly like I'd imagine stormcast light/skirmish infantry to do. They have a solid role as outflankers and objective campers too, despite the similar statline. And unlike prosecutors they won't be super expensive for the wound count.
Depends on points honestly, they're solid but a little too 'jack of all trades' to justify taking over judicators and very similar in power to liberators.
Hulksmash wrote: Solid. It'll be interesting to see their point costs. They aren't much different than Prosecutors with some tweaks and less movement. I'm interested to see their point costs.
They don't really need that much mobility, though, since the compass will let you close in fairly fast to the enemy back-lines.
Automatically Appended Next Post: We do know the following prayers:
-God-King's aspect: enemies within 12'' of the priest add two to battleshock. Rolls of one when deciding wether the prayer activates or not result in a mortal wound.
-Abjuration: on a roll of 2+ you can unbind a spell per enemy phase until your next hero phase (so kind of decent if double turning enemy).
-Bless weapons: on a roll of something (blocked) you can make a unit get extra attacks for each roll of 6 they make more attacks. Devastating on concussors if you ask me.
-Divine light 3+ to trigger. If you target enemy units, you re-roll hits of 1. If you target ally units, enemy re-roll hits of 6.
The other 2 are movement and battleshock based judging by what I could see. Looks like the were rather reserved this release tbh.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I see a bunch of minis on pre-order, some of which I recognise already.
What has been reboxed, and have any prices gone up?
Prosecutors have been reboxed from 3 to 6.
Liberators have been reboxed from 5 to 10.
Judicators have been reboxed from 5 to 10.
They've all gone up something like $10-$12 USD in price, from what I remember. The prices weren't listed in the February WD.
Liberators and Judicators were both $50 for 5, Prosecutors were $60 or so for 3.
So why are all the other Sigmarine things (the mono-pose Draegon™, the smaller dragon things, and so on) appeared on pre-order if they haven't changed?
H.B.M.C. wrote: So why are all the other Sigmarine things (the mono-pose Draegon™, the smaller dragon things, and so on) appeared on pre-order if they haven't changed?
I was wondering the same thing as the price, the contents, and the box art all look the same. Maybe the warscrolls have changed, since they come in the box.
H.B.M.C. wrote: So why are all the other Sigmarine things (the mono-pose Draegon™, the smaller dragon things, and so on) appeared on pre-order if they haven't changed?
Don't quote me on this, but I think it might be the box changed.
I think they've been labeled "Stormcast Extremis" before.
H.B.M.C. wrote: So why are all the other Sigmarine things (the mono-pose Draegon™, the smaller dragon things, and so on) appeared on pre-order if they haven't changed?
Don't quote me on this, but I think it might be the box changed.
I think they've been labeled "Stormcast Extremis" before.
Hulksmash wrote: Solid. It'll be interesting to see their point costs. They aren't much different than Prosecutors with some tweaks and less movement. I'm interested to see their point costs.
They don't really need that much mobility, though, since the compass will let you close in fairly fast to the enemy back-lines.
Automatically Appended Next Post: We do know the following prayers:
-God-King's aspect: enemies within 12'' of the priest add two to battleshock. Rolls of one when deciding wether the prayer activates or not result in a mortal wound.
-Abjuration: on a roll of 2+ you can unbind a spell per enemy phase until your next hero phase (so kind of decent if double turning enemy).
-Bless weapons: on a roll of something (blocked) you can make a unit get extra attacks for each roll of 6 they make more attacks. Devastating on concussors if you ask me.
-Divine light 3+ to trigger. If you target enemy units, you re-roll hits of 1. If you target ally units, enemy re-roll hits of 6.
The other 2 are movement and battleshock based judging by what I could see. Looks like the were rather reserved this release tbh.
To be honest those are prayers, prayers tend to be weaker on average then spells but easier to cast and can't really be unbound.
NinthMusketeer wrote: The main bulk of this battletome's content will be battalions, I suspect. Stormcast have a huge amount of battalions.
It's 29 batallions in the book and the stormcast currently have 29 total, but with the changes to lightning strike I wouldn't be surprised if most of them were retooled significantly. Skyborne slayers seems kind of sill when you can deepstrike already.
NinthMusketeer wrote: The main bulk of this battletome's content will be battalions, I suspect. Stormcast have a huge amount of battalions.
It's 29 batallions in the book and the stormcast currently have 29 total, but with the changes to lightning strike I wouldn't be surprised if most of them were retooled significantly. Skyborne slayers seems kind of sill when you can deepstrike already.
29 would be including narrative battalions from the campaign books, so that many in the battletome suggests a whole bunch of new ones.
I was just reading through the latest WD again and was reading the Ask Grombrindal bit and someone asks what to paint their Word Bearers. The dwarf replies saying they are heretics but 'whatever floats your skyship.'
Since he is a Dwarf I was thinking is this a tease of what's coming for the Duradin or do they just mean skyship as in Cruiser?
Also the SE BT is pretty much a must buy since it'll have story advancement stuff.
I think they are harkening back on a few original concepts in age of Sigmar. Stormcast Armor, apparently, was based on old designs made by Blanche, tzaangors where a thing too back in the beginning but were swiftly removed. Then there's rumors of a cult of slaanesh sprouting amongst the elves, not too dissimilar to what they originally had. So maybe.
I think they are harkening back on a few original concepts in age of Sigmar. Stormcast Armor, apparently, was based on old designs made by Blanche.
I'm not sure how old are they.. A couple of months after AoS hit the images leaked (IIRC from the jobs section on gw's site or something). Then, a couple of months ago, I remember some guy reposting them, claiming they were old pieces dating waaay before AoS was planned. I can't remember any dates shown on them or something indicating their age and it is still a mystery for me why were they presumed to be so old... Have I missed something?
I think they are harkening back on a few original concepts in age of Sigmar. Stormcast Armor, apparently, was based on old designs made by Blanche.
I'm not sure how old are they.. A couple of months after AoS hit the images leaked (IIRC from the jobs section on gw's site or something). Then, a couple of months ago, I remember some guy reposting them, claiming they were old pieces dating waaay before AoS was planned. I can't remember any dates shown on them or something indicating their age and it is still a mystery for me why were they presumed to be so old... Have I missed something?
Nyeh, whatever. Don't know myself. Still, there's plenty of older things that are resurging.
GW were totally planning on selling 5 Vanguards and 3 Gryph-hounds for a similiar price before their shake-up, weren't they. Buy a box of hounds or try and hunt down the (now hopefully easier/cheaper to get) Castellant doggie which has a superior pose.
Against all odds I was hoping that the plastic birdies would also show up. At least a date or price.
The Gryph-hounds rules are the same as the older ones. We've to see if there is a change in size, it could be 3, considering the sprues and that you can make 2 alphas.
Bottle wrote: Nice to see price reductions and nice to see Fyreslayer point reductions!
I hope when the Duardin get redone they have a super battletome that combines Fyreslayers and all the kits get price reductions too. £40 for a box of Longbeards, Ironbreakers or Vulkite Beserkers all seems good to me!
Still waiting for a Fyreslayers SC box. Hopefully we'll get one this year.
Ordered the battletome and gryph hounds. I've wanted the puppies forever and the codex is a solid price. Especially since I didn't buy the other two books
I think they are harkening back on a few original concepts in age of Sigmar. Stormcast Armor, apparently, was based on old designs made by Blanche, tzaangors where a thing too back in the beginning but were swiftly removed. Then there's rumors of a cult of slaanesh sprouting amongst the elves, not too dissimilar to what they originally had. So maybe.
They might not be that old, Blanche still does new concept work for the company. One notable piece is the kairic acolyte one...which the models are based off of. He also did one for mistweaver saih or whatever her name is.
Carnikang wrote: Have Dracothian Guard always been $65? I could have sworn they were ten dollars cheaper.
They have always been 55 euros, so my guess is that yes, they have always been 65 ameribucks. Lesson to learn? Don't become independent, you traitorous colonist.
Carnikang wrote: Have Dracothian Guard always been $65? I could have sworn they were ten dollars cheaper.
They have always been 55 euros, so my guess is that yes, they have always been 65 ameribucks. Lesson to learn? Don't become independent, you traitorous colonist.
Hey, it was a confusing time okay? Hard to know where you're supposed to be when both sides are ran by English guys named George and Franklin is pimping himself out in France.
I mean, c'mon, it might sound quite cheesy, but is not a stupid name, for once you guys could be fair.
And this is slight format change, with a font size adjusted.
1. Stardrake is a good name, IMO.
2. I wrote that because I honestly couldn't remember the actual name, so when in doubt at 'ae's and 'y's to regular words and you're bound to end up close. 3. I don't gotta be fair 'bout nuthin'.
So the Liberators and Judicators are just £7.5 more expensive with twice the miniatures as before?
At last, they went from £6 per model to £3.75 per model. This is much more bearable now. I can buy a box of each now, maybe two.
The Judicators are £10 more expensive for twice the models it used to have; from £11.66 (rounded up) to £7.5. A bit expensive, but it's still nice to see the actual reduction.
Ironically, the reboxes affected the SC! kit negatively, since now you are buying half of the Liberators and Prosecutors kits. You used to save £45, now you only save £21.25.
CMLR wrote: So the Liberators and Judicators are just £7.5 more expensive with twice the miniatures as before?
At last, they went from £6 per model to £3.75 per model. This is much more bearable now. I can buy a box of each now, maybe two.
The Judicators are £10 more expensive for twice the models it used to have; from £11.66 (rounded up) to £7.5. A bit expensive, but it's still nice to see the actual reduction.
Ironically, the reboxes affected the SC! kit negatively, since now you are buying half of the Liberators and Prosecutors kits. You used to save £45, now you only save £21.25.
That's huge.
Aren't the Retributors in the SC mono-pose as well, making that package a slightly worse deal?
Yeah they are the mono pose Retributors from the "Easy to build box", and they are in turn two of the Retributors from the starter box put onto a separate sprue.
I think they are harkening back on a few original concepts in age of Sigmar. Stormcast Armor, apparently, was based on old designs made by Blanche, tzaangors where a thing too back in the beginning but were swiftly removed. Then there's rumors of a cult of slaanesh sprouting amongst the elves, not too dissimilar to what they originally had. So maybe.
So what you are saying is it's not AoS, but Age of Blanche?
angelofvengeance wrote: Yes cmlr but you still have a playable force, since stormcast units need a minimum of 3(retributors and prosecutors)or5 models.
You can field them with less than the minimums as long as you pay the price for a minimum-sized unit, per GHB p. 107.
They will be sub-optimal but still legal even under points play.
On topic: I plan on picking up the chicken dogs.
Might get the new infantry, too, but want to see how the cavalry guys look and their cost before I decide.
angelofvengeance wrote: Yes cmlr but you still have a playable force, since stormcast units need a minimum of 3(retributors and prosecutors)or5 models.
You can field them with less than the minimums as long as you pay the price for a minimum-sized unit, per GHB p. 107.
They will be sub-optimal but still legal even under points play.
On topic: I plan on picking up the chicken dogs.
Might get the new infantry, too, but want to see how the cavalry guys look and their cost before I decide.
There is new infantry? I thought it was just reboxed?
angelofvengeance wrote: Yes cmlr but you still have a playable force, since stormcast units need a minimum of 3(retributors and prosecutors)or5 models.
You can field them with less than the minimums as long as you pay the price for a minimum-sized unit, per GHB p. 107.
They will be sub-optimal but still legal even under points play.
On topic: I plan on picking up the chicken dogs.
Might get the new infantry, too, but want to see how the cavalry guys look and their cost before I decide.
There is new infantry? I thought it was just reboxed?
I think they are harkening back on a few original concepts in age of Sigmar. Stormcast Armor, apparently, was based on old designs made by Blanche, tzaangors where a thing too back in the beginning but were swiftly removed. Then there's rumors of a cult of slaanesh sprouting amongst the elves, not too dissimilar to what they originally had. So maybe.
So what you are saying is it's not AoS, but Age of Blanche?
I dunno what he was saying, but I was saying the concept of a 'skyship' is nothing new for dwarfs. AoS dwaerfs will probably get one sometime - I'd put money on it - but I don't know if a flippant remark from a tongue-in-cheek character in an unrelated topic is 'hidden' proof of a wild new concept that'll show up in their next release. Heck, it could just as easily be a fantasy character's reference to a starship.
For another thing, I can't see a dwaerf airship having such a simple name as 'skyship'. 'Warferryk skyswoopgallyon' maybe, but not 'skyship'.
I think they are harkening back on a few original concepts in age of Sigmar. Stormcast Armor, apparently, was based on old designs made by Blanche, tzaangors where a thing too back in the beginning but were swiftly removed. Then there's rumors of a cult of slaanesh sprouting amongst the elves, not too dissimilar to what they originally had. So maybe.
So what you are saying is it's not AoS, but Age of Blanche?
I will say that AOS is going back to how things were in the older editions of whfb somewhat. In the new tzeentch tome they actually show you what tzeentch looks like and he looks exactly like his realm of chaos depiction, as kragan said there is a rumor that elves are going to be a part of the slaanesh update. In 2nd edition chaos elves WERE an option for chaos champion and god dedicated beastmen.
I don't know much about Blanche apart from his art but I do think things are being pulled from the older parts of fantasy. Which I approve of.
I think they are harkening back on a few original concepts in age of Sigmar. Stormcast Armor, apparently, was based on old designs made by Blanche, tzaangors where a thing too back in the beginning but were swiftly removed. Then there's rumors of a cult of slaanesh sprouting amongst the elves, not too dissimilar to what they originally had. So maybe.
So what you are saying is it's not AoS, but Age of Blanche?
I will say that AOS is going back to how things were in the older editions of whfb somewhat. In the new tzeentch tome they actually show you what tzeentch looks like and he looks exactly like his realm of chaos depiction, as kragan said there is a rumor that elves are going to be a part of the slaanesh update. In 2nd edition chaos elves WERE an option for chaos champion and god dedicated beastmen.
I don't know much about Blanche apart from his art but I do think things are being pulled from the older parts of fantasy. Which I approve of.
I think they are harkening back on a few original concepts in age of Sigmar. Stormcast Armor, apparently, was based on old designs made by Blanche, tzaangors where a thing too back in the beginning but were swiftly removed. Then there's rumors of a cult of slaanesh sprouting amongst the elves, not too dissimilar to what they originally had. So maybe.
So what you are saying is it's not AoS, but Age of Blanche?
I will say that AOS is going back to how things were in the older editions of whfb somewhat. In the new tzeentch tome they actually show you what tzeentch looks like and he looks exactly like his realm of chaos depiction, as kragan said there is a rumor that elves are going to be a part of the slaanesh update. In 2nd edition chaos elves WERE an option for chaos champion and god dedicated beastmen.
I don't know much about Blanche apart from his art but I do think things are being pulled from the older parts of fantasy. Which I approve of.
I think they are harkening back on a few original concepts in age of Sigmar. Stormcast Armor, apparently, was based on old designs made by Blanche, tzaangors where a thing too back in the beginning but were swiftly removed. Then there's rumors of a cult of slaanesh sprouting amongst the elves, not too dissimilar to what they originally had. So maybe.
So what you are saying is it's not AoS, but Age of Blanche?
I will say that AOS is going back to how things were in the older editions of whfb somewhat. In the new tzeentch tome they actually show you what tzeentch looks like and he looks exactly like his realm of chaos depiction, as kragan said there is a rumor that elves are going to be a part of the slaanesh update. In 2nd edition chaos elves WERE an option for chaos champion and god dedicated beastmen.
I don't know much about Blanche apart from his art but I do think things are being pulled from the older parts of fantasy. Which I approve of.
Didn't see this posted before - regarding the new Warhammer Quest:
WARHAMMER QUEST: SHADOWS OVER HAMMERHALL
Warhammer Quest: Shadows over Hammerhall is a stand-alone boxed game for 2-5 players set in the splendid city of Order – Hammerhall. Up to 4 players can quest in the catacombs and dungeons below the city, while another acts as game master, setting fiendish obstacles, controlling the antagonists (monsters) and setting the story – it’s up to this player to take charge of revealing the secrets each dungeon has to offer.
The game is fully compatible with the Warhammer Quest: Silver Tower game and the Hero Cards. Any miniatures or rules the customer already owns for that game can also be used in this game. In addition, the game has a lot of replay-ability, as character level up and increase their skills as you play. The box contains 31 miniatures, including:
1x Lord Castellant and Gryph Hound
1x Cogsmith
1x Black Art Fleetmaster
1x Loremaster
1x Chaos Sorcerer Lord
5x Putrid Blightkings
10x Kairic Acolytes
10x Bloodreavers
1x 72 page guide book
1x 32 page adventure book
18x double sides board sections
55x cards
12x dice
A variety of counters and markers for tracking your heroes as they gain experience and skills under the city of Hammerhall
Hmm I do hope they throw in rules for other chaos beasties in White Dwarf later. On the upside, I get to add a shedload more acolytes to my Tzeentch force and my brother gets to have more m̶e̶a̶t̶ ̶s̶h̶i̶e̶l̶d̶s̶ bloodreavers for his Khorne Bloodbound force.
Not thrilled with the included minis. They should have included the new changeling as the big bad.
Regarding the books the adventure book the new one is shorter, but if you take out the extra heroes and adversaries and fold them into the other book the adventure books are the same length.
If you add those pages to the guide book that still leaves another 20 pages for new stuff. I hope this is given over to an improved campaign aspect.
I am also very curious to see the new board sections.
If they could release a box without the minis for £40, I would be all over it. I guess I will be trawling eBay.
I am also interested in seeing the new tiles the most! I really want to get this, but with Deathwatch Overkill still not complete, nor Gorchosen, I don't feel I can add to my project backlog just yet.
Chikout wrote: Not thrilled with the included minis. They should have included the new changeling as the big bad.
Regarding the books the adventure book the new one is shorter, but if you take out the extra heroes and adversaries and fold them into the other book the adventure books are the same length.
If you add those pages to the guide book that still leaves another 20 pages for new stuff. I hope this is given over to an improved campaign aspect.
I am also very curious to see the new board sections.
If they could release a box without the minis for £40, I would be all over it. I guess I will be trawling eBay.
I agree - it's a pretty good selection of minis, but I'd rather no or fewer models and a lower price point for the tiles and books etc. I really want an expansion for WQ, not a new standalone game, even if it is compatible.
Davor wrote: Are these new minis or old ones? From the box art, I thought I read someone say they don't look new.
I'm pretty sure they're old ones. The newest models in the box are the kairic acolytes, I think.
They are all old mins, though it does seem they are full multipart sprues. Also just noticed there are 18 board sections in this box compared with 13 in silver tower so that at least is an improvement.
Well, I'd buy all the game elements apart from the minis separately, id buy Silver tower whole and add putrid blightkings to that. All the other miniatures from Hammerhall are replacable and of no interest to me..
I hope they make some changes to the cogsmith's stats, right now I won't even use him in silver tower because he's too powerful (along with a handful of others) and kills the challenge.
MongooseMatt wrote: Didn't see this posted before - regarding the new Warhammer Quest:
WARHAMMER QUEST: SHADOWS OVER HAMMERHALL
Warhammer Quest: Shadows over Hammerhall is a stand-alone boxed game for 2-5 players set in the splendid city of Order – Hammerhall. Up to 4 players can quest in the catacombs and dungeons below the city, while another acts as game master, setting fiendish obstacles, controlling the antagonists (monsters) and setting the story – it’s up to this player to take charge of revealing the secrets each dungeon has to offer.
The game is fully compatible with the Warhammer Quest: Silver Tower game and the Hero Cards. Any miniatures or rules the customer already owns for that game can also be used in this game. In addition, the game has a lot of replay-ability, as character level up and increase their skills as you play. The box contains 31 miniatures, including:
1x Lord Castellant and Gryph Hound
1x Cogsmith
1x Black Art Fleetmaster
1x Loremaster
1x Chaos Sorcerer Lord
5x Putrid Blightkings
10x Kairic Acolytes
10x Bloodreavers
1x 72 page guide book
1x 32 page adventure book
18x double sides board sections
55x cards
12x dice
A variety of counters and markers for tracking your heroes as they gain experience and skills under the city of Hammerhall
£90, on sale 25th Feb.
Can you give me a source? Silver Tower is the reason I got back into warhammer and the 25th is my actual birthday so I'd like to keep up with details of Shadow over hammerhal.
i like very much that silver tower has no need of a game master. so i hope this is fake or at least the gm won't be mandatory.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MongooseMatt wrote: Didn't see this posted before - regarding the new Warhammer Quest:
WARHAMMER QUEST: SHADOWS OVER HAMMERHALL
Warhammer Quest: Shadows over Hammerhall is a stand-alone boxed game for 2-5 players set in the splendid city of Order – Hammerhall. Up to 4 players can quest in the catacombs and dungeons below the city, while another acts as game master, setting fiendish obstacles, controlling the antagonists (monsters) and setting the story – it’s up to this player to take charge of revealing the secrets each dungeon has to offer.
The game is fully compatible with the Warhammer Quest: Silver Tower game and the Hero Cards. Any miniatures or rules the customer already owns for that game can also be used in this game. In addition, the game has a lot of replay-ability, as character level up and increase their skills as you play. The box contains 31 miniatures, including:
1x Lord Castellant and Gryph Hound
1x Cogsmith
1x Black Art Fleetmaster
1x Loremaster
1x Chaos Sorcerer Lord
5x Putrid Blightkings
10x Kairic Acolytes
10x Bloodreavers
1x 72 page guide book
1x 32 page adventure book
18x double sides board sections
55x cards
12x dice
A variety of counters and markers for tracking your heroes as they gain experience and skills under the city of Hammerhall
£90, on sale 25th Feb.
If the game is fully compatible with silver tower's hero cards - why are there only 12 dice in Hammerhall? 4 Players using Silver Tower Hero Card's would use 4 dice each. That would add up to at least 16 dice. Not counting any monster dice etc.
Warhammer Quest: Shadows over Hammerhall is a stand-alone boxed game for 2-5 players set in the splendid city of Order – Hammerhall. Up to 4 players can quest in the catacombs and dungeons below the city, while another acts as game master, setting fiendish obstacles, controlling the antagonists (monsters) and setting the story – it’s up to this player to take charge of revealing the secrets each dungeon has to offer.
The game is fully compatible with the Warhammer Quest: Silver Tower game and the Hero Cards. Any miniatures or rules the customer already owns for that game can also be used in this game. In addition, the game has a lot of replay-ability, as character level up and increase their skills as you play. The box contains 32 miniatures, including:
Lord Castellant and Gryph Hound
Cogsmith
Black Art Fleetmaster
Loremaster
Chaos Sorcerer Lord
Slaughterpriest
5 Putrid Blightkings
10 Kairic Acolytes
10 Bloodreavers
72 page guide book
32 page adventure book
18 double sides board sections
55 cards
16 dice
+ Counters and markers
25th Feb.
prize £90
So it all adds up.
Also, dunno if this has been mentioned but I have been informed by my LGS-guy on the price of the chargers and the knight-aquilor: 45 euros for the chargers (he didn't specify number of models, but more than one for sure as he wrote it in plural) and 32.5 euros per aquilor.
So $100 USD $112? Im bad at conversions but thats what google tells me.
Putrid blight kings are some of the coolest models I have had the pleasure of painting.
I dont have any of those models save the blightkings and the bloodreavers so the box is good to me at least.
Rules to lvl up and have 1 player as the GM sounds wicked awesome as well. Hopefully that is backwards compatible with Silver Tower and somsone canGM that.
Comes out to around $3 usd per model, not a bad deal imo.
So it seems that this weekends other preorders have not been mentioned yet. They are:
Lord Aquilor €32
Knight Palladors on gryph chargers 3 to a box I think. €45
Slambo chaos Lord?!!? €29
Source for this is Miniwars.eu.
Chikout wrote: So it seems that this weekends other preorders have not been mentioned yet. They are:
Lord Aquilor €32
Knight Palladors on gryph chargers 3 to a box I think. €45
Slambo chaos Lord?!!? €29
Source for this is Miniwars.eu.
If true then next weekend we will see the Aetherwings and the Vanguard-Raptors (big crossbow guys) up for pre-order. Which will round the last of the Stormcast releases.
The next AOS releases would be Warhammer Quest and then hopefully Duardin.
Kanluwen wrote: I don't think we will actually have a "game master" but rather something like Execution Force where there's a set of "programming" for the "NPCs".
For real? The marketing thing (which based upon its wording goes to retailers) flat out says:
"... while another acts as game master, setting fiendish obstacles, controlling the antagonists (monsters) and setting the story..."
Chikout wrote: So it seems that this weekends other preorders have not been mentioned yet. They are:
Lord Aquilor €32
Knight Palladors on gryph chargers 3 to a box I think. €45
Slambo chaos Lord?!!? €29
Source for this is Miniwars.eu.
If true then next weekend we will see the Aetherwings and the Vanguard-Raptors (big crossbow guys) up for pre-order. Which will round the last of the Stormcast releases.
The next AOS releases would be Warhammer Quest and then hopefully Duardin.
According to Miniwars warhammer quest is also up for preorder this weekend. At this point the next unknown preorder week is March 11(after rise of the primarch)
It would be great to see the new Duardin that soon.
By the way, is it just me or is GW's release schedule crazy this year. In the first two months of the year we have 2 campaign books, 2 battletomes and two new games. It is looking like next month will have another campaign book and another battletome. It was not that long ago when we had six new books in a whole year (2011?). This year we will have 6 in 3 months.
I also could have sworn that GW had mentioned something about all new something or other models in the original press blurb.
Or maybe it was just my imagination?
There's flat out a lot less included.
Silver Tower had 6 hero options in the box. Hammerhall has 4.
Silver Tower had 2 'evil leaders' in the box. Hammerhall has 1 (smaller than either of the Silver Tower ones).
Silver Tower had 7 types of non-leader monsters in the box. Hammerhall has 3.
Silver Tower had 38 total non-leader monsters in the box. Hammerhall has 25 (albeit, size/bulk likely favours hammerhall in this respect - many ST monsters are tiny).
The familiars don't factor into those calculations.
The rules will obviously make or break the game, but in terms of value for contents, this is nowhere near the standard set by Silver Tower.
Kanluwen wrote: I don't think we will actually have a "game master" but rather something like Execution Force where there's a set of "programming" for the "NPCs".
For real? The marketing thing (which based upon its wording goes to retailers) flat out says:
"... while another acts as game master, setting fiendish obstacles, controlling the antagonists (monsters) and setting the story..."
Chikout wrote: So it seems that this weekends other preorders have not been mentioned yet. They are:
Lord Aquilor €32
Knight Palladors on gryph chargers 3 to a box I think. €45
Slambo chaos Lord?!!? €29
Source for this is Miniwars.eu.
If true then next weekend we will see the Aetherwings and the Vanguard-Raptors (big crossbow guys) up for pre-order. Which will round the last of the Stormcast releases.
The next AOS releases would be Warhammer Quest and then hopefully Duardin.
According to Miniwars warhammer quest is also up for preorder this weekend. At this point the next unknown preorder week is March 11(after rise of the primarch)
It would be great to see the new Duardin that soon.
By the way, is it just me or is GW's release schedule crazy this year. In the first two months of the year we have 2 campaign books, 2 battletomes and two new games. It is looking like next month will have another campaign book and another battletome. It was not that long ago when we had six new books in a whole year (2011?). This year we will have 6 in 3 months.
Indeed, I think it's GW trying to get the better part of the AoS releases out if the way so they can focus on 40k 8th edition.
Also, not surprised that the new Warhammer quest is lacking new models. Probably won't see new quest models until next year, hopefully the Steamhead release will make up for it. (Also hoping the Duardin lord will be a tie-in to the faction.)
The GM element sounds cool, though. Someone needs to suggest to the WD facebook about putting in GM articles for special scenarios to stir up the creativity.
Kanluwen wrote: I don't think we will actually have a "game master" but rather something like Execution Force where there's a set of "programming" for the "NPCs".
For real? The marketing thing (which based upon its wording goes to retailers) flat out says:
"... while another acts as game master, setting fiendish obstacles, controlling the antagonists (monsters) and setting the story..."
That's not AI. That's someone acting as the GM.
I didn't see that bit. Not everyone trawls 4chan.
Yeah, that's why it was posted a page back or so.
>_>
I also could have sworn that GW had mentioned something about all new something or other models in the original press blurb.
Or maybe it was just my imagination?
There's flat out a lot less included.
Silver Tower had 6 hero options in the box. Hammerhall has 4.
Silver Tower had 2 'evil leaders' in the box. Hammerhall has 1 (smaller than either of the Silver Tower ones).
Silver Tower had 7 types of non-leader monsters in the box. Hammerhall has 3.
Silver Tower had 38 total non-leader monsters in the box. Hammerhall has 25 (albeit, size/bulk likely favours hammerhall in this respect - many ST monsters are tiny).
The familiars don't factor into those calculations.
The rules will obviously make or break the game, but in terms of value for contents, this is nowhere near the standard set by Silver Tower.
Something that I wonder is if these are monopose figures like silver tower or if they are actually a full blightking kit, half a bloodreaver kit, and half an acolyte kit. That would account for over half the value right there before even getting to the heroes.
Baron Klatz wrote: Also, not surprised that the new Warhammer quest is lacking new models.
Really, why?
Kanluwen wrote: I didn't see that bit. Not everyone trawls 4chan.
Don't even try that. It was posted word for word here multiple times, in this thread and the actual Quest thread.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Something that I wonder is if these are monopose figures like silver tower or if they are actually a full blightking kit, half a bloodreaver kit, and half an acolyte kit. That would account for over half the value right there before even getting to the heroes.
Seems unlikely that they would cut new sprues just to release something that already exists in the exact same numbers. Nothing in this box is new remember. Kairic Acolytes come on two sprues, of which you get 2 of each in the box for 20 minis, so halving that to 10 is easy. Ditto for the Reavers. Blight Knights come in 5's on 3 sprues, and this box comes with 5 so it is unlikely that we're getting something similar to what we have already.
Well Chikout already addressed it on the thread for warhammer quest but it's likely Silver Tower was planned as sort of a one-off thing and it's big popularity probably surprised GW.
They probably weren't planning to return to it so soon but the outcry for more warhammer quest on their Facebooks and other sites forced their hand to bring something out sooner than planned and even if they started working on it right after Silver Tower's launch it'd still take two years as that's their average model-making time.
So by that logic we should see new quest models with the next release. Hopefully that's the rumored undead version.
That seems to be going around. Blood Bowl, Silver Tower, the response to Adeptus Titanicus at the FW thing last weekend.
Releasing products and then acting gobsmacked when they are a runaway success doesn't seem like a prudent way to run a business.
Perhaps it's more about them being surprised by the demographic? Of course older gamers will like it, but the new blood?
Maybe there has been a real upswing in interest by younger players and hobbyist, though I'm not exactly sure how GW would reliably gauge this bar surveying customers in store and at events.
I think the new community interaction is also a big part of it as they now can directly hear the fandom's demands.
I think the new WD is a good example of this as they did a huge turn in so short of an amount of time that they didn't even have time to make a new White Dwarf model to go with the change.
Baron Klatz wrote: I think the new WD is a good example of this as they did a huge turn in so short of an amount of time that they didn't even have time to make a new White Dwarf model to go with the change.
That seems to be going around. Blood Bowl, Silver Tower, the response to Adeptus Titanicus at the FW thing last weekend.
Releasing products and then acting gobsmacked when they are a runaway success doesn't seem like a prudent way to run a business.
I'm wondering if their seemingly conservative sales estimations are based on the market now having alternatives, and not knowing how their return would work out?
For a long time, Blood Bowl was (at least to my knowledge) the only game of it's sort. But since GW pulled it, others have sprung up, which seem popular enough in their own right.
Likewise Quest - for me, Warhammer Quest was and always will be the finest dungeon crawl game I've ever played. Since it's untimely demise (allegedly because they lost the plans for the dungeon tiles. But that's likely apocryphal), lots of others have gained attention and followers. To be honest, Silver Tower, whilst fun, isn't a patch on it - too heavily themed.
It's seems more prudent to be conservative in your estimates and have to reprint / expand future options than over estimate and have product sitting around / cancel work that's already done.
It's the first real test of the market for them in a long time afterall
There's also the 'have we actually annoyed former customers as much as the vocal minority claim we have?' to factor in.
If the answer was yes, little harm done.
As the answer was no, slight frustration as stuff quickly becomes back order - and we've already seen a change, particularly in Blood Bowl. Winter Pitch is still showing as 'no longer available' (though they have confirmed they're looking to restock. Hurrah!). Dwarf Dice, and Skaven/Dwarf pitch? Email Me When Available - so they are going back into production to satisfy the demand.
That seems to be going around. Blood Bowl, Silver Tower, the response to Adeptus Titanicus at the FW thing last weekend.
Releasing products and then acting gobsmacked when they are a runaway success doesn't seem like a prudent way to run a business.
I'm wondering if their seemingly conservative sales estimations are based on the market now having alternatives, and not knowing how their return would work out?
For a long time, Blood Bowl was (at least to my knowledge) the only game of it's sort. But since GW pulled it, others have sprung up, which seem popular enough in their own right.
Likewise Quest - for me, Warhammer Quest was and always will be the finest dungeon crawl game I've ever played. Since it's untimely demise (allegedly because they lost the plans for the dungeon tiles. But that's likely apocryphal), lots of others have gained attention and followers. To be honest, Silver Tower, whilst fun, isn't a patch on it - too heavily themed.
The only thing there low production amounts are influenced by is the game that shall not be named in nottingham........Dreadfleet.
"The print runs of the foreign language editions were always bigger than we could sell, and after several near-disasters where we’d printed way too many of something, GorkaMorka being a classic example, we’d nearly bankrupted the company.”
Yes, I remember Gorkamorka being insanely popular, it sold so well on release in my area, nobody was buying anything else, and the local stores couldn't keep up with demand.
“At the time, roleplaying was still really big,” he said.
“Rogue Trader still had a lot of roleplaying elements in it, it still had an umpire. But we quickly realised that a battle game was what people wanted, and we gradually developed the rules for choosing armies and for playing without an umpire.
“I think by the time we did the second edition in 1993 it had moved from essentially a roleplaying skirmish game to a battle game, which is commercially advantageous because you’re selling more models with it.”
The 40K universe was bleak, dangerous and engulfed in endless war. Human civilisation had expanded across the galaxy, encountering a host of alien species based on typical fantasy races. Elves became Eldar, mysterious, lithe and deadly creatures travelling on giant spacecraft that served as artificial worlds. Orcs received a science fiction makeover to become Space Orks – essentially a race of green-skinned football hooligans. Squats – later dropped from the game – were a futuristic take on dwarves.
“I just sort of bunged all the ideas I could think of into it,” Priestley said.
“We just plundered everything. Obviously Tolkien was a big influence, and in terms of 40K there’s a lot of Frank Herbert’s Dune in there. If you’ve read Dune, every chapter starts with a bit of an excerpt, and I rather enjoyed that, so I just copied the idea by putting little bits of pseudo fiction in.”
Other influences included the works of Robert Heinlein and H.P. Lovecraft, but it was a much older source – the 17th century poet John Milton – who would provide the inspiration for the game’s greatest conflict.
In a reimagining of the epic poem Paradise Lost, which deals with an attempt to overthrow God by a faction of rebel angels, Warhammer 40,000 featured a cataclysmic schism within the forces of the Empire of Mankind. In an event known as the Horus Heresy, chapters of Space Marines – genetically engineered, fanatically religious super-soldiers – turned against their Emperor after falling prey to the influence of the Chaos Gods, the supreme antagonists of this dark future setting.
“The original idea for Chaos was Bryan Ansell’s,” Priestley said.
“He wrote a Warhammer supplement called Realms of Chaos where he came up with the gods and the demons. He produced this huge hand-written manuscript where he defined all of that, and I took what he’d written and developed it as a book.”
But Priestley’s idea of Chaos differed from Ansell’s, and in 40K he sought to expand on the concept.
“Bryan’s idea of Chaos was very much derived from [science fiction and fantasy author] Michael Moorcock,” he said. “I always thought it was a little too close for comfort, it looked like we were just copying.
“But I’d always had this sense of Chaos existing as described in Paradise Lost. I’d tried to bring elements of that into the background and gradually change it from a description of demons into a kind of force out of which came realities, a kind of literal primal chaos.
“Unless you’ve read Paradise Lost you don’t get it. The whole Horus Heresy is just a parody of the fall of Lucifer as described by Milton.”
“TO ME THE BACKGROUND TO40K WAS ALWAYS INTENDED TO BE IRONIC”
The civil war within the human Imperium would set the scene for 40k’s entire backstory, and the Space Marines would become the most recognisable figures in its fictional universe. But while recent editions of the game have cast them in a heroic light, Priestley argued that Games Workshop had misinterpreted the intent behind the characters.
“To me the background to 40K was always intended to be ironic,” he said.
“The fact that the Space Marines were lauded as heroes within Games Workshop always amused me, because they’re brutal, but they’re also completely self-deceiving. The whole idea of the Emperor is that you don’t know whether he’s alive or dead. The whole Imperium might be running on superstition. There’s no guarantee that the Emperor is anything other than a corpse with a residual mental ability to direct spacecraft.
“It’s got some parallels with religious beliefs and principles, and I think a lot of that got missed and overwritten.”
Expanding the empire
The dark and bloody tone of Warhammer 40,000 resonated with its core audience of teenage boys, and Games Workshop owner Bryan Ansell was keen to capitalise on this connection by offering new products for these loyal – sometimes obsessive – customers to spent their money on.
“Bryan ran Games Workshop as a bit of a personal empire,” said Priestley.
“He was very into music, so he decided that as well as selling games, he wanted to be a music publisher. He worked with bands like [British heavy metal act] Saxon, it was all part of his ‘we can do anything’ attitude.”
The company would work with other UK artists including thrash metallers Sabbat. But their best-known partnership was with legendary death metal band Bolt Thrower, whose war-obsessed lyrics and extreme, aggressive sound were a perfect fit for the war-torn galaxy the company had built.
Strange new worlds
As Games Workshop’s empire expanded, so did its Warhammer 40,000 universe. Over time the game incorporated new playable races. The Tyranids, an alien species from beyond the known galaxy, bore a marked resemblance to the Xenomorph, developed for the Alien film franchise by Swiss artist H.R. Giger. The sinister skeletal mechanoids known as the Necrons served as a futuristic take on the undead armies of Warhammer Fantasy, and had a similar appearance to the robotic killers of the Terminator films.
But while these new armies expanded the game, its creative director was keen to explore aspects of the setting in far greater detail, and Games Workshop produced a number of smaller skirmish-level releases that focused on specific locations within the expansive 40K galaxy.
Set in one of the gargantuan hive cities constructed across human-inhabited space,Necromunda depicted the conflict between rival gangs in pursuit of renown, money and power. Released in 1995, it reintroduced some of the RPG elements that had been stripped out of Warhammer and 40K over the years, with individually named characters who gained experience, suffered injuries and upgraded their weapons and equipment over time. The game presented a jarring, punk-infused take on a fusturistic dystopia, and it was perhaps the most obvious example of one of the main inspirations for the 40K universe – the British comic book 2000AD.
“We all read it,” Priestley said.
“It was very influential from the early days of 40K, and the 2000AD artists actually worked with us on some of these games. I got to meet [Judge Dredd co-creator] John Wagner, which was quite a privilege.
“I actually wrote the Judge Dredd roleplaying game in the 80s and we produced miniatures for it. That was just before we produced 40K, so there’s a lot of spillover.”
And where Necromunda borrowed from the colourful, violent and often satirical stories of 2000AD, a subsequent release took its inspiration from the post-apocalyptic world of Mad Max.
GorkaMorka was another skirmish-scale game. But where Necromunda had focused on gang warfare in a cramped, claustrophobic urban setting, this new release depicted battles on an arid desert planet between rival bands of savage Space Orks. Marooned after their spacecraft crash-landed on the isolated world, they fought using salvaged and highly unpredictable vehicles and equipment.
Both games met with a positive reaction from players, but according to Priestley they led to a crisis within the company – now headed by Tom Kirby, Games Workshop’s former general manager, who led a management buyout that saw Bryan Ansell depart in 1991.
“Tom had to borrow a lot of money to buy the business,” Priestley said. “That meant we had to grow the company very quickly.
“I thought that one way to do that would be to expand the product line, so you’d have Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, then this series of games that would let you explore the universe at a much closer, more detailed level.
“But it ended up being one of the great dividing points of Games Workshop. We’d grown internationally at a very fast pace, and we had to deal with French, Spanish, Italian versions of the games. The print runs of the foreign language editions were always bigger than we could sell, and after several near-disasters where we’d printed way too many of something, GorkaMorka being a classic example, we’d nearly bankrupted the company.”
The financial scare spooked management, Priestley said, leading to a change in Games Workshop’s culture.
“The appetite for new games just disappeared,” he said.
“But I have to say that this was not due to the concept being wrong, I think it was due to them not having the sophistication to manage the stock or manage the new sales divisions that had been created.
“The studio, the creative part of Games Workshop, had always been kept apart from the sales part of it. One thing Bryan said was that if the sales people got to be in charge of the studio, it would destroy the studio, and that’s exactly what happened
Vorian wrote:It's seems more prudent to be conservative in your estimates and have to reprint / expand future options than over estimate and have product sitting around / cancel work that's already done.
It's the first real test of the market for them in a long time afterall
You would think doing research would be prudent then eh?
“At the time, roleplaying was still really big,” he said.
“Rogue Trader still had a lot of roleplaying elements in it, it still had an umpire. But we quickly realised that a battle game was what people wanted, and we gradually developed the rules for choosing armies and for playing without an umpire.
“I think by the time we did the second edition in 1993 it had moved from essentially a roleplaying skirmish game to a battle game, which is commercially advantageous because you’re selling more models with it.”
The 40K universe was bleak, dangerous and engulfed in endless war. Human civilisation had expanded across the galaxy, encountering a host of alien species based on typical fantasy races. Elves became Eldar, mysterious, lithe and deadly creatures travelling on giant spacecraft that served as artificial worlds. Orcs received a science fiction makeover to become Space Orks – essentially a race of green-skinned football hooligans. Squats – later dropped from the game – were a futuristic take on dwarves.
“I just sort of bunged all the ideas I could think of into it,” Priestley said.
“We just plundered everything. Obviously Tolkien was a big influence, and in terms of 40K there’s a lot of Frank Herbert’s Dune in there. If you’ve read Dune, every chapter starts with a bit of an excerpt, and I rather enjoyed that, so I just copied the idea by putting little bits of pseudo fiction in.”
Other influences included the works of Robert Heinlein and H.P. Lovecraft, but it was a much older source – the 17th century poet John Milton – who would provide the inspiration for the game’s greatest conflict.
In a reimagining of the epic poem Paradise Lost, which deals with an attempt to overthrow God by a faction of rebel angels, Warhammer 40,000 featured a cataclysmic schism within the forces of the Empire of Mankind. In an event known as the Horus Heresy, chapters of Space Marines – genetically engineered, fanatically religious super-soldiers – turned against their Emperor after falling prey to the influence of the Chaos Gods, the supreme antagonists of this dark future setting.
“The original idea for Chaos was Bryan Ansell’s,” Priestley said.
“He wrote a Warhammer supplement called Realms of Chaos where he came up with the gods and the demons. He produced this huge hand-written manuscript where he defined all of that, and I took what he’d written and developed it as a book.”
But Priestley’s idea of Chaos differed from Ansell’s, and in 40K he sought to expand on the concept.
“Bryan’s idea of Chaos was very much derived from [science fiction and fantasy author] Michael Moorcock,” he said. “I always thought it was a little too close for comfort, it looked like we were just copying.
“But I’d always had this sense of Chaos existing as described in Paradise Lost. I’d tried to bring elements of that into the background and gradually change it from a description of demons into a kind of force out of which came realities, a kind of literal primal chaos.
“Unless you’ve read Paradise Lost you don’t get it. The whole Horus Heresy is just a parody of the fall of Lucifer as described by Milton.”
“TO ME THE BACKGROUND TO40K WAS ALWAYS INTENDED TO BE IRONIC”
The civil war within the human Imperium would set the scene for 40k’s entire backstory, and the Space Marines would become the most recognisable figures in its fictional universe. But while recent editions of the game have cast them in a heroic light, Priestley argued that Games Workshop had misinterpreted the intent behind the characters.
“To me the background to 40K was always intended to be ironic,” he said.
“The fact that the Space Marines were lauded as heroes within Games Workshop always amused me, because they’re brutal, but they’re also completely self-deceiving. The whole idea of the Emperor is that you don’t know whether he’s alive or dead. The whole Imperium might be running on superstition. There’s no guarantee that the Emperor is anything other than a corpse with a residual mental ability to direct spacecraft.
“It’s got some parallels with religious beliefs and principles, and I think a lot of that got missed and overwritten.”
Expanding the empire
The dark and bloody tone of Warhammer 40,000 resonated with its core audience of teenage boys, and Games Workshop owner Bryan Ansell was keen to capitalise on this connection by offering new products for these loyal – sometimes obsessive – customers to spent their money on.
“Bryan ran Games Workshop as a bit of a personal empire,” said Priestley.
“He was very into music, so he decided that as well as selling games, he wanted to be a music publisher. He worked with bands like [British heavy metal act] Saxon, it was all part of his ‘we can do anything’ attitude.”
The company would work with other UK artists including thrash metallers Sabbat. But their best-known partnership was with legendary death metal band Bolt Thrower, whose war-obsessed lyrics and extreme, aggressive sound were a perfect fit for the war-torn galaxy the company had built.
Strange new worlds
As Games Workshop’s empire expanded, so did its Warhammer 40,000 universe. Over time the game incorporated new playable races. The Tyranids, an alien species from beyond the known galaxy, bore a marked resemblance to the Xenomorph, developed for the Alien film franchise by Swiss artist H.R. Giger. The sinister skeletal mechanoids known as the Necrons served as a futuristic take on the undead armies of Warhammer Fantasy, and had a similar appearance to the robotic killers of the Terminator films.
But while these new armies expanded the game, its creative director was keen to explore aspects of the setting in far greater detail, and Games Workshop produced a number of smaller skirmish-level releases that focused on specific locations within the expansive 40K galaxy.
Set in one of the gargantuan hive cities constructed across human-inhabited space,Necromunda depicted the conflict between rival gangs in pursuit of renown, money and power. Released in 1995, it reintroduced some of the RPG elements that had been stripped out of Warhammer and 40K over the years, with individually named characters who gained experience, suffered injuries and upgraded their weapons and equipment over time. The game presented a jarring, punk-infused take on a fusturistic dystopia, and it was perhaps the most obvious example of one of the main inspirations for the 40K universe – the British comic book 2000AD.
“We all read it,” Priestley said.
“It was very influential from the early days of 40K, and the 2000AD artists actually worked with us on some of these games. I got to meet [Judge Dredd co-creator] John Wagner, which was quite a privilege.
“I actually wrote the Judge Dredd roleplaying game in the 80s and we produced miniatures for it. That was just before we produced 40K, so there’s a lot of spillover.”
And where Necromunda borrowed from the colourful, violent and often satirical stories of 2000AD, a subsequent release took its inspiration from the post-apocalyptic world of Mad Max.
GorkaMorka was another skirmish-scale game. But where Necromunda had focused on gang warfare in a cramped, claustrophobic urban setting, this new release depicted battles on an arid desert planet between rival bands of savage Space Orks. Marooned after their spacecraft crash-landed on the isolated world, they fought using salvaged and highly unpredictable vehicles and equipment.
Both games met with a positive reaction from players, but according to Priestley they led to a crisis within the company – now headed by Tom Kirby, Games Workshop’s former general manager, who led a management buyout that saw Bryan Ansell depart in 1991.
“Tom had to borrow a lot of money to buy the business,” Priestley said. “That meant we had to grow the company very quickly.
“I thought that one way to do that would be to expand the product line, so you’d have Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, then this series of games that would let you explore the universe at a much closer, more detailed level.
“But it ended up being one of the great dividing points of Games Workshop. We’d grown internationally at a very fast pace, and we had to deal with French, Spanish, Italian versions of the games. The print runs of the foreign language editions were always bigger than we could sell, and after several near-disasters where we’d printed way too many of something, GorkaMorka being a classic example, we’d nearly bankrupted the company.”
The financial scare spooked management, Priestley said, leading to a change in Games Workshop’s culture.
“The appetite for new games just disappeared,” he said.
“But I have to say that this was not due to the concept being wrong, I think it was due to them not having the sophistication to manage the stock or manage the new sales divisions that had been created.
“The studio, the creative part of Games Workshop, had always been kept apart from the sales part of it. One thing Bryan said was that if the sales people got to be in charge of the studio, it would destroy the studio, and that’s exactly what happened
Thank you so much. That was a great read. Happy Valentines day to you.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vorian wrote: Erm, how exactly are they going to do this? They aren't prescient.
They estimate
It was a joke. How Kirby boasted in one of his preambles that GW doesn't do market research.
You need to be waaaay more obvious of you're being sarcastic. People post stuff much worse than that all the time and in all seriousness :p
There was more to the interview, but that seems to be gone - that was the most interesting stuff. There is another one somewhere where they talk about how Cawdor was the vanilla gang they based everyone else off for Necromunda which confused me somewhat
Looks like some peeps over on TGA forums have got hold of the new Stormcast battletome in German. Now I really, really want GW to get on with releasing a non starter set Lord Relictor*sigh*
Skaven! About bloody time!
And I have to be honest, the only thing worse than the sigmarine aesthetic, is one riding a bird. It looks really weird in that pic.
That is unfortunately old art from the godbeasts book. If I remember correctly it is supposed to be a kind of walking city, so much too big to become a mini. I do think we will see a clan Skyre book sooner or later though.
The whole section on 'preventing enemy pile-ins' shows the source of 75% of matched play's balance issues. Elite units and monsters have an inherent advantage in melee but their costs are not increased to accommodate for that.
NinthMusketeer wrote: That's a parasite engine from the Godbeast's book. They are literally walking Skaven cities; you would have a battle in one, not battle with one!
shinros wrote: Tactical Tool box post on warhammer community. Charging etc.
The whole section on 'preventing enemy pile-ins' shows the source of 75% of matched play's balance issues. Elite units and monsters have an inherent advantage in melee but their costs are not increased to accommodate for that.
Elite units and monsters have the major drawback of their deaths being meaningful. Taking 5 Mortal wounds against your unit of Dracoths will cost you 120 points, taking 5 mortals wounds against clanrats is 30., 16 mortal wounds against a stardrake and you're out 600 points, 16 mortal wounds against a unit of skeletons and you're out maybe 80 after regen and death saves.
The vast majority of elite units or monsters seen in matched play are either a handful of standout powerhouses(Stonehorn, VLoZD, Mourngul, Durthu, Kurnoths) primarily shooting based(thundertusks, stormfiends, Kurnoths again) or 1 or 2 condensed units meant to be the backbone of the army(15 brutes, 2 units of 6 necroknights, morghasts, 2 units of 10 paladins).
Large groups of cheap bodies are incredibly valuable in AoS already, they don't really need the help. Also, the better they become, the longer games start to take. We don't really need to go full hordehammer.
NinthMusketeer wrote: That's a parasite engine from the Godbeast's book. They are literally walking Skaven cities; you would have a battle in one, not battle with one!
shinros wrote: Tactical Tool box post on warhammer community. Charging etc.
The whole section on 'preventing enemy pile-ins' shows the source of 75% of matched play's balance issues. Elite units and monsters have an inherent advantage in melee but their costs are not increased to accommodate for that.
Elite units and monsters have the major drawback of their deaths being meaningful. Taking 5 Mortal wounds against your unit of Dracoths will cost you 120 points, taking 5 mortals wounds against clanrats is 30., 16 mortal wounds against a stardrake and you're out 600 points, 16 mortal wounds against a unit of skeletons and you're out maybe 80 after regen and death saves.
The vast majority of elite units or monsters seen in matched play are either a handful of standout powerhouses(Stonehorn, VLoZD, Mourngul, Durthu, Kurnoths) primarily shooting based(thundertusks, stormfiends, Kurnoths again) or 1 or 2 condensed units meant to be the backbone of the army(15 brutes, 2 units of 6 necroknights, morghasts, 2 units of 10 paladins).
Large groups of cheap bodies are incredibly valuable in AoS already, they don't really need the help. Also, the better they become, the longer games start to take. We don't really need to go full hordehammer.
Yeah, this is why we see horde armies dominating tournaments
NinthMusketeer wrote: That's a parasite engine from the Godbeast's book. They are literally walking Skaven cities; you would have a battle in one, not battle with one!
shinros wrote: Tactical Tool box post on warhammer community. Charging etc.
The whole section on 'preventing enemy pile-ins' shows the source of 75% of matched play's balance issues. Elite units and monsters have an inherent advantage in melee but their costs are not increased to accommodate for that.
Elite units and monsters have the major drawback of their deaths being meaningful. Taking 5 Mortal wounds against your unit of Dracoths will cost you 120 points, taking 5 mortals wounds against clanrats is 30., 16 mortal wounds against a stardrake and you're out 600 points, 16 mortal wounds against a unit of skeletons and you're out maybe 80 after regen and death saves.
The vast majority of elite units or monsters seen in matched play are either a handful of standout powerhouses(Stonehorn, VLoZD, Mourngul, Durthu, Kurnoths) primarily shooting based(thundertusks, stormfiends, Kurnoths again) or 1 or 2 condensed units meant to be the backbone of the army(15 brutes, 2 units of 6 necroknights, morghasts, 2 units of 10 paladins).
Large groups of cheap bodies are incredibly valuable in AoS already, they don't really need the help. Also, the better they become, the longer games start to take. We don't really need to go full hordehammer.
Yeah, this is why we see horde armies dominating tournaments
This is starting to get derailed but I think we can all agree that grots are used frequently by competitive destruction, aren't they? And eighty regular bodies on a 2k match is kind of an horde.
Also, Mongoose matt has the battletome and has done a review. I think there's plenty of things we didn't know here:
NinthMusketeer wrote: That's a parasite engine from the Godbeast's book. They are literally walking Skaven cities; you would have a battle in one, not battle with one!
shinros wrote: Tactical Tool box post on warhammer community. Charging etc.
The whole section on 'preventing enemy pile-ins' shows the source of 75% of matched play's balance issues. Elite units and monsters have an inherent advantage in melee but their costs are not increased to accommodate for that.
Elite units and monsters have the major drawback of their deaths being meaningful. Taking 5 Mortal wounds against your unit of Dracoths will cost you 120 points, taking 5 mortals wounds against clanrats is 30., 16 mortal wounds against a stardrake and you're out 600 points, 16 mortal wounds against a unit of skeletons and you're out maybe 80 after regen and death saves.
The vast majority of elite units or monsters seen in matched play are either a handful of standout powerhouses(Stonehorn, VLoZD, Mourngul, Durthu, Kurnoths) primarily shooting based(thundertusks, stormfiends, Kurnoths again) or 1 or 2 condensed units meant to be the backbone of the army(15 brutes, 2 units of 6 necroknights, morghasts, 2 units of 10 paladins).
Large groups of cheap bodies are incredibly valuable in AoS already, they don't really need the help. Also, the better they become, the longer games start to take. We don't really need to go full hordehammer.
Yeah, this is why we see horde armies dominating tournaments
This is starting to get derailed but I think we can all agree that grots are used frequently by competitive destruction, aren't they? And eighty regular bodies on a 2k match is kind of an horde.
Also, Mongoose matt has the battletome and has done a review. I think there's plenty of things we didn't know here:
Actually that brings us to something I hope to see in the generals handbook (but doubt we will); scaling point costs. Numerous units get better with increasing size, meaning that grots 20-39 are worth more than 1-19, while 40-60 are worth more than 20-39. Pricing an average means that the bigger blobs are going to perform disproportionately well for their cost, which is exactly why we see those big blobs at tournaments. Even so, that is literally two infantry options (gitmob grots and moonclan grots) out of dozens and hardly proof that basic infantry are on even footing overall.
NinthMusketeer wrote: That's a parasite engine from the Godbeast's book. They are literally walking Skaven cities; you would have a battle in one, not battle with one!
shinros wrote: Tactical Tool box post on warhammer community. Charging etc.
The whole section on 'preventing enemy pile-ins' shows the source of 75% of matched play's balance issues. Elite units and monsters have an inherent advantage in melee but their costs are not increased to accommodate for that.
Elite units and monsters have the major drawback of their deaths being meaningful. Taking 5 Mortal wounds against your unit of Dracoths will cost you 120 points, taking 5 mortals wounds against clanrats is 30., 16 mortal wounds against a stardrake and you're out 600 points, 16 mortal wounds against a unit of skeletons and you're out maybe 80 after regen and death saves.
The vast majority of elite units or monsters seen in matched play are either a handful of standout powerhouses(Stonehorn, VLoZD, Mourngul, Durthu, Kurnoths) primarily shooting based(thundertusks, stormfiends, Kurnoths again) or 1 or 2 condensed units meant to be the backbone of the army(15 brutes, 2 units of 6 necroknights, morghasts, 2 units of 10 paladins).
Large groups of cheap bodies are incredibly valuable in AoS already, they don't really need the help. Also, the better they become, the longer games start to take. We don't really need to go full hordehammer.
Yeah, this is why we see horde armies dominating tournaments
It's not my fault you don't follow the tournament scene dude. Half the armies at the last uk masters had 120 models or more. Destruction and chaos both bring multiple large units of little gribblies as standard in competitive lists. Kunnin ruck lists can get up to what, 200 savage orks? Order and death don't really but that's mostly due to relatively expensive bodies(order) or very very strong behemoths(Death).
I believe that Games Workshop has purposely under-costed the large models to insure that they are included in most armies. I think that they believe that large models look great on the table and draw new players to the game, and I agree with them on that.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Hm, it seems we have different definitions of a horde army so I'll leave it at that.
Edit: After checking it doesn't look like that claim is true anyway.
You had 3 destruction armies with at least 80 infantry models, you had 3 chaos armies with at least 50 infantry models, and you had the hordiest version of ironjawz allegience you can possibly run. It's not quite half to be sure but that's a fair chunk of armies running big swaths of models.
We must have different definitions of horde armies, mine is 'A large number of models that is not so large the game slows down to a crawl.'
NinthMusketeer wrote: Hm, it seems we have different definitions of a horde army so I'll leave it at that.
Edit: After checking it doesn't look like that claim is true anyway.
You had 3 destruction armies with at least 80 infantry models, you had 3 chaos armies with at least 50 infantry models, and you had the hordiest version of ironjawz allegience you can possibly run. It's not quite half to be sure but that's a fair chunk of armies running big swaths of models.
We must have different definitions of horde armies, mine is 'A large number of models that is not so large the game slows down to a crawl.'
80 models is not a horde army. I use to run 300+ zombies and 80+ ghouls. Or 3 units of 100-200 slaves and a unit or 2 or 80-100 clan rats.
I mean tbf it's a bit disingenuous to compare WHFB army sizes with AoS, given everything in AoS costs more in points than they ever would of in Fantasy (except Behemoth Heroes).
Back in the WHFB days most Tournaments were 2400+ pts and most core infantry were less than 10 ppm.
In AoS terms any army with over 100 models could be considered a horde army. The player who came fourth in heat one was using more than 100 skeletons. A top 5 player in the lvo was using a chaos army with more than 100 models. In the first game shown on warhammer TV yesterday there was a huge grot army and pretty big flesh eaters army (which the grots won).
Some of the best combos in AoS at the moment involve a mix of powerful behemoths and big units of cheap infantry.
What is encouraging so far is that we have seen a lot of different types of armies win tournaments. If the ghb 2 can tweak a few of the obviously op units (stormfiends, kurnoth hunters etc) aos will be in a pretty good place going forward.
Smellingsalts wrote: I believe that Games Workshop has purposely under-costed the large models to insure that they are included in most armies. I think that they believe that large models look great on the table and draw new players to the game, and I agree with them on that.
Ironically this isn't 100% GW, they based their current points off one of the tournament scene's point scheme's and those had a bit of iffy points for some monsters.
But not all monsters are under this, nobody would say the Fyreslayers have cheap monsters to say the least! Most of the issue comes with the stupidly strong Monsters, like Beastclaws really good ones.
Smellingsalts wrote: I believe that Games Workshop has purposely under-costed the large models to insure that they are included in most armies. I think that they believe that large models look great on the table and draw new players to the game, and I agree with them on that.
Ironically this isn't 100% GW, they based their current points off one of the tournament scene's point scheme's and those had a bit of iffy points for some monsters.
But not all monsters are under this, nobody would say the Fyreslayers have cheap monsters to say the least! Most of the issue comes with the stupidly strong Monsters, like Beastclaws really good ones.
Well they're testing the new points for fireslayers and all the monsters dropped. I think the 3 variants are 200, 240, 260 now? But much more reasonable.
So did all their troops, Fyreslayers were just overcosted in general and I do hope to see them more often. Though they also need some rules adjustments. (Especially the Auric Runemaster! He practically benefits the enemy over you at times)
ZebioLizard2 wrote: So did all their troops, Fyreslayers were just overcosted in general and I do hope to see them more often. Though they also need some rules adjustments. (Especially the Auric Runemaster! He practically benefits the enemy over you at times)
I would imagine they will also need a real money price adjustment as well if the faction were to really take off. Maybe they'll get a reboxing and per-model price decrease like Stormcasts just did.
I am VERY impressed by those palladors. The dynamism, the interaction between the mounts and the riders, the musculature on the mounts and all the extra little gubbins combine to make a wonderful set of minis. By far the best Stormcast release so far. It is also worth noting that the Stormcast legs are not attached to the mounts (unlike the aquilor) so plenty of conversion potential.
yikes. That look like something out of Heroquest. Gakky model imo, especially at that price.
The bird are really good though. The green paintjob wasn't doing it for me and made the models look terrible, but with a good paint job, they are terrific. Only minus is the big clowns on them, but with helmetless head, they look decent
Originally a Warriors of Chaos Mortals miniature dating back to 4th(?) edition. Older Games Workshop ads for models named some individuals despite the fact none would ever recieve lore.
During 2014, while /tg/ raged and lamented the changes in End Times, an anon decided to cheer the mass of Fantasy fans up by posting old White Dwarf promos in a nostalgiabomb (or a lesson for newer players). One in particular model, dubbed Slambo, caught the attention of the thread.
Slambo is heavily armored like most Warriors, although his faux-viking helmet horns meet to form a halo like a medieval painting of a saint or king, while he is armed with two huge battleaxes. It was love at first sight for many.
Since then, Slambo has come to replace any Chaos character with displeasing lore. If Archaon is unsatisfactory, Slambo is the Everchosen with Archaon being some past failed gakker nobody cares to remember. Those who dislike Be'lakor (the many that is) consider Slambo the first Daemon Prince, the master of Chaos Undivided. If a player wants an extra special Chaos Champion, Slambo is of course eligible. Those who feel Khorne, Tzeentch, Slaanesh, Nurgle, even Horned Rat to be boring little gaks consider Slambo the true master of their branch of Chaos. When Age of Slam was first concieved, Slambo was the replacement for Jim and Bob as commentator.
These gryphchargers are really lovely, and I generally like the Stormcast look, but they look a bit odd together. The huge heavily armoured dudes on these relatively lithe mounts just seems somewhat off.
