DoomMouse wrote: Are vultures really that bad? To me they seem like a punisher but tougher (more wounds and -1 to hit), faster, potentially better ballistic skill, and can't be locked in CC.
They're not terrible, but they're not great. Tank commanders can get BS 3+ easily and then add a free re-roll 1s buff, while the Vulture is BS 4+ (5+ if the target can fly!) unless it forfeits its -1 to hit and the ability to move to get that 24" gun into range. With a large model on a tall base you're never going to get out of LOS, so your only defense is your stat line. As a flyer, the Vulture will never be able to score objectives while the LRBT can even get objective secured! Finally, insult to injury is that the Vulture has to pay 40 points for a twin weapon while the LRBT pays 20 points for a single weapon and fires it twice. It all adds up to a unit that is weaker, but probably not by such a margin that you'll automatically lose if you love the model and put one on the table.
Plus the fact the Punisher Cannon in general is quite poor against anything but light infantry as it's main weapon holds it back. If it fires at Primaris marines in cover it's only going to kill 1. The guard already possess the tools to take out plenty of light infantry. And already need enough help with AT and durable heavy infantry. I suppose it could be useful against things like Venoms? I'd rather just use autocannons at that point, though.
The good comes from the fact this thing can kind of go after enemy characters. But is that worth it's points cost? A Valk can almost do the same thing but also transport 12 models for close to the same points cost.
At the end of the day, it's not a bad unit. You're probably going to have to design a list with this thing in mind. But if you think it's cool, then use it!
On another note, the crowd in the "5pt Guardsmen" thread are getting quite rowdy. Here's a list of everything that's been called undercosted or OP in that thread so far:
OP Company Commander, Colonel Straken, infantry squads, SGT Harker, Scions, Scion Command Squads, Bullgryn, Hellhounds, Heavy Weapons Squads (mortars), Basilisks, Manticores, Leman Russes, Shadowswords
So then I made a list of the remainder of the units in the codex with my own experience:
Unplayable
Master of Ordnance, Special Weapons Squad, veterans, Officer of the Fleet, Wyrdvane Psykers, Ogryns, Ratlings, Deathstrike
Properly balanced-ish
Creed, commissars, Tempestor Primes, Primaris Psykers, Conscripts, Platoon Commanders, Command Squads, Kell, Priests, Crusaders (synergy issues), Tech priests, Astropaths, Ogryn Bodyguards, Scout/Armored Sentinels(there's worse units, haha), Wyverns (kinda bad), Hydras (definitely not good), Chimeras (bit over priced), Tauroxes, Valks (bit overpriced for the lack of synergy)
I'm wondering if people really believe all that stuff is OP, if we just have the tools to combat nearly everything, are other armies THAT bad, OR if 1/3rd of the codex is OP. And after all the nerfs our codex has received, how could 1/3rd of the codex get past playtesters (granted I don't have much faith in that system but that many OP units getting through is wild). Additionally, the vast majority of our Stratagems are garbage tier. I could play through games without using any at all besides the rulebook ones and be nearly the same off.
In short, I'm opposed to the increase in points for Guardsmen simply for the fact people seem to have it out for guard over any other faction and it will not stop at 5ppm Guardsmen, I'm sure of that. They'll merely go on to yell about the rest of our units they've already brought up. It's ominous to think that other nerfs have occurred by GW listening to these voices. Just think about all those questionable nerfs that hit many of our FW units.
What do you guys think? I'd consider 5ppm Guardsmen if I knew other things would be balanced well at the same time. I just doubt that will happen. And I play pure guard so I regularly play full infantry lists or lists with 6-10 infantry squads. That's quite a change for my lists.
Somebody in that thread even said that infantry squad is op because it can fire double amount of shots after falling back... (Yeah, it seems we are able to issue two orders per unit... and even we do not need HQ for that xD). Haters gonna hate nothing You can do about that. Just drink their tears.
Once CA drops there will be changes. We will get buff or nerf and just roll with it. META changes, rules changes, only war never change.
If guardsmen will rise to 5ppm then we will have to change our lists. There will be nothing to "consider" then .Please note that there are still Ork players xD. You don't need to play strong army to have fun .
Cephalobeard wrote: I wish rough riders were part of the codex so they were worth the time/effort/money to build and convert. I would happily make some for my guard.
The whole "index only" thing has me wary to bother, though.
Why do you think that you cannot use Rough Riders with your IG/AM army? You can use any datasheet from the index that is not in the AM codex in your AM list.
What are everyone's thoughts on a single large conscript squad of 30 (insane bravery to keep them on the field) to sit on major objectives / plop themselves in the center? I find our regular infantry squads melt too easily to Morale and it's expensive command point wise to keep them from running.
Overall I like it, we just need to be aware that our cute little trick to game the system doesn't work quite as well. Mainly denying reaper by taking heavy weapons in infantry squads. It now rewards points on the amount of models destroyed, not units. This means that even though your squads are technically 9 models, they now count. For the average soup abuser, this isn't a big deal as they never took that many guardsmen to begin with, but it is an issue for pure guard armies as losing 20 men is very easy to do. You need to lose 80 to max out the points. This means there will likely be a sweet spot around 6 infantry squads or so where you get a good amount of infantry but deny max points, which will reward a hybrid style approach.
The main thing it does is let us score points much easier. Tons of the little tricks elite armies were doing to deny points are gone now, so IG armies that rely on force to score points will be very happy I think. They also added a mission that incentivises holding multiple objectives on the final turn, which is excellent for any pure guard army.
It remains to be seen how we do in the new mission types, but overall I think they did a pretty good job.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Naix
I find it interesting you're having issues with morale. What regiment are you running? Even just basic commissars should be plenty for most armies and are dirt cheap.
Overall I like it, we just need to be aware that our cute little trick to game the system doesn't work quite as well. Mainly denying reaper by taking heavy weapons in infantry squads. It now rewards points on the amount of models destroyed, not units. This means that even though your squads are technically 9 models, they now count. For the average soup abuser, this isn't a big deal as they never took that many guardsmen to begin with, but it is an issue for pure guard armies as losing 20 men is very easy to do. You need to lose 80 to max out the points. This means there will likely be a sweet spot around 6 infantry squads or so where you get a good amount of infantry but deny max points, which will reward a hybrid style approach.
The main thing it does is let us score points much easier. Tons of the little tricks elite armies were doing to deny points are gone now, so IG armies that rely on force to score points will be very happy I think. They also added a mission that incentivises holding multiple objectives on the final turn, which is excellent for any pure guard army.
It remains to be seen how we do in the new mission types, but overall I think they did a pretty good job.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Naix
I find it interesting you're having issues with morale. What regiment are you running? Even just basic commissars should be plenty for most armies and are dirt cheap.
I run them as Cadians. I don't usually go for commissars as I'd rather just get more bodies on the field. I just find that when I take 6-7 casualties in a naked 10 min squad, morale often gets the remainder which is annoying. These being the squads I'm running forwards to objectives. Makes me think that conscripts might be a more efficient use of insane bravery albeit at reduced lasgun efficiency.
You should be running commissars bare minimum. Basic ones are 16pts, they'll pay for themselves just from the ld 8aura and close combat, although Lord commissars at 31pts or so are probably the better buy. If you're running a Russ, you should make one a commissars tank, that ld 9 aura is very handy.
In addition as cadians I would make a strong case for Kell, even without Creed. His free reroll is very handy and he gives you an extra order on top of a decent little cqc character.
Theretically a 30 man conscripts squad sounds good but just a token squad or two will get focused down pretty hard. They also only accept orders half the time. Infantry squads still perform the job better with officer support as they are faster. You just need to dash from cover to cover and choose your moment carefully. I've had fun with large amounts of Valhallan conscripts but I'd still say in 99% of situations you want infantry squads instead.
On another note, the crowd in the "5pt Guardsmen" thread are getting quite rowdy. Here's a list of everything that's been called undercosted or OP in that thread so far:
OP Company Commander, Colonel Straken, infantry squads, SGT Harker, Scions, Scion Command Squads, Bullgryn, Hellhounds, Heavy Weapons Squads (mortars), Basilisks, Manticores, Leman Russes, Shadowswords
Since I'm one of the proponents for 5py guard I'll give you my 2 cents without the interference of the more antagonistic opinions.
CC: Not OP, but could potentially be adjusted upwards provided he can take something like a command rod.
Straken/harker/scions/bullgryns/hellhounds were not called out as OPafaik, they were merely mentioned tangentially
Mortars are objectively too cheap compared to similar options (Tau SMS turret)
Basilisks/manticors/russes/infantry are the main points of contention, particularly how they synergize.
Shadowswords are one of those big units that feels unfair under certain circumstances, which is exacerbated by their ludicrous AT damage.
So then I made a list of the remainder of the units in the codex with my own experience:
Unplayable
Master of Ordnance, Special Weapons Squad, veterans, Officer of the Fleet, Wyrdvane Psykers, Ogryns, Ratlings, Deathstrike
Properly balanced-ish
Creed, commissars, Tempestor Primes, Primaris Psykers, Conscripts, Platoon Commanders, Command Squads, Kell, Priests, Crusaders (synergy issues), Tech priests, Astropaths, Ogryn Bodyguards, Scout/Armored Sentinels(there's worse units, haha), Wyverns (kinda bad), Hydras (definitely not good), Chimeras (bit over priced), Tauroxes, Valks (bit overpriced for the lack of synergy)
Why you so mean to SWS? They get 2 guys per special, and pay the cheapest prices for weapons in the Imperium. They don't play like infantry, but they aren't unplayable.
Veterans are unplayable because infantry is too cheap AND they pay more for plasma/melta, their overall damage per point is poor next to infantry. The Elite slot doesn't help either.
Ogryns/ratlings I've not used but other people have been happy with them overall.
Poor deathstrike
MrMoustaffa wrote: You should be running commissars bare minimum. Basic ones are 16pts, they'll pay for themselves just from the ld 8aura and close combat, although Lord commissars at 31pts or so are probably the better buy. If you're running a Russ, you should make one a commissars tank, that ld 9 aura is very handy.
In addition as cadians I would make a strong case for Kell, even without Creed. His free reroll is very handy and he gives you an extra order on top of a decent little cqc character.
Theretically a 30 man conscripts squad sounds good but just a token squad or two will get focused down pretty hard. They also only accept orders half the time. Infantry squads still perform the job better with officer support as they are faster. You just need to dash from cover to cover and choose your moment carefully. I've had fun with large amounts of Valhallan conscripts but I'd still say in 99% of situations you want infantry squads instead.
I've thought about that, but the most a commissar is going to save is an additional guardsman. (Leadership 8 vs 7). You're saving maybe 2 guardsmen as a result of their Aura. Would it not be better just to invest in more bodies on the field?
Well the commissar only costs 4 guardsmen barebones. Give him a power axe/maul and he becomes a decent little counter punch guy in casual play. Lord commissars hit on 2's in combat so they can be a good choice for a fist or axe.
The big thing is you get to choose when you shoot a guy for the reroll. Which means if you fail the test by 1 you can let it be, but if you fail by 6 you can shoot a guy to have a chance at saving several.
In a vacuum this doesn't seem like such a big deal, but on the initial turns you'll often see several squads down to morale, and in later turns you may be low on CP to use for morale. I'm not saying your army needs tons of commissars, but a couple of strategically placed ones tend to pay for themselves quickly.
My main regiment is Valhallans, so for me every point of ld helps more, but for other armies they have a valid use. I would say for non Valhallans Lord commissars shine best when you need to fill out multiple batallions as they are the next cheapest HQ and at that point you have enough infantry to ensure they get some use. Regular commissars are probably a better choice in smaller games where you have less guardsmen or you have other auras like a commissar tank or an Inquisitor to combo them with, essentially just using their reroll and their ld 8 as a backup.
A final fringe scenario is ld debuff abilities. If commissars are well placed, they will be out of the debuff zone affecting your squads. This means your guardsmen can be nuked to -5 ld, but if your commissar is outside the debuff range they stay ld 8 regardless. Incredibly fringe I know but with IG even a -2 aura can kill a lot of guardsmen to morale.
TL;DR: if I had to rate commissars, I'd say they come into their own in a pure or mostly pure IG army. They serve a valid role and aren't game breaking but you will be surprised how much work they can do if used well. However in the competitive meta of Souphammer 40Soup, most players don't have need of them because their guard contingent will rarely hit a number of guardsmen high enough to warrant their inclusion. They're borderline mandatory for an army wishing to include a high amount of guardsmen, as they become more efficient the more infantry you have, which is something that can be said for many of our characters such as priests and officers.
Anyone have an opinion on power swords on sargeants for Catachans?
With the new ITC changes to reaper, Heavy weapons aren't as important anymore and allows a bit more flexibility.
Been torn between either dropping the mortar and adding a power sword, or swapping to Cadia and keeping the mortar, but also adding a sniper to each squad.
I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but I just noticed with the rule of 3 change, and the price drop to autocannons, that Taurox's are only 68 points with a heavy stubber. Two of them together give roughly the same amount of shooting as a Leman Russ Exterminator with a price reduction...and troop capacity. I don't know about tournament play, but being able to drop nigh infinite sentinels/heavy weapon squads that can protect my dudes from turn 1 wipes is pretty neat (Dedicated Transports and Troops being exempted from the rule of 3).
Has anyone done something like this yet?
EDIT:
"Yo dawg, we heard you like screens, so we put a screen, in your screen, so you can screen with a screen that is INSIDE your screen!"
Cephalobeard wrote: I wish rough riders were part of the codex so they were worth the time/effort/money to build and convert. I would happily make some for my guard.
The whole "index only" thing has me wary to bother, though.
Why do you think that you cannot use Rough Riders with your IG/AM army? You can use any datasheet from the index that is not in the AM codex in your AM list.
I never said you can't use them.
You just won't be able to forever, as they're 99% being phased out after/during this edition.
Cephalobeard wrote:Anyone have an opinion on power swords on sargeants for Catachans?
They're fine, but not great. Most of the time, they'll struggle to land wounds (two swings at WS4+/S4 aren't great), and against a lot of targets you'd rather have the extra swing from a chainsword. That said, they're super cheap. Depending on how you run your stuff, there's usually an order of precedence for small upgrades. I'd slot power swords as follows:
Plasma in Infantry squads
Storm Bolters on Hellhounds
Power Swords on officers
Storm Bolters on LRBTs Power swords on infantry squads
Stubbers on Artillery
Ravemastaj wrote:I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but I just noticed with the rule of 3 change, and the price drop to autocannons, that Taurox's are only 68 points with a heavy stubber. Two of them together give roughly the same amount of shooting as a Leman Russ Exterminator with a price reduction...and troop capacity. I don't know about tournament play, but being able to drop nigh infinite sentinels/heavy weapon squads that can protect my dudes from turn 1 wipes is pretty neat (Dedicated Transports and Troops being exempted from the rule of 3).
Has anyone done something like this yet?
EDIT:
"Yo dawg, we heard you like screens, so we put a screen, in your screen, so you can screen with a screen that is INSIDE your screen!"
I'm pretty sure they're 78 points, not 68. If you run them as Tallarn, they can move and shoot, which makes them useful light tanks. Without that, they're stuck being static pillboxes. They're reasonably tough.
The money play would be to include a tallarn battalion for ambushing, and then buy tauroxes to deploy as light tanks.
Still, real talk? Autocannons are at best "fine" and hellhounds are only 23 points more.
Cephalobeard wrote:Anyone have an opinion on power swords on sargeants for Catachans?
They're fine, but not great. Most of the time, they'll struggle to land wounds (two swings at WS4+/S4 aren't great), and against a lot of targets you'd rather have the extra swing from a chainsword. That said, they're super cheap. Depending on how you run your stuff, there's usually an order of precedence for small upgrades. I'd slot power swords as follows:
Plasma in Infantry squads
Storm Bolters on Hellhounds
Power Swords on officers
Storm Bolters on LRBTs Power swords on infantry squads
Stubbers on Artillery
Ravemastaj wrote:I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but I just noticed with the rule of 3 change, and the price drop to autocannons, that Taurox's are only 68 points with a heavy stubber. Two of them together give roughly the same amount of shooting as a Leman Russ Exterminator with a price reduction...and troop capacity. I don't know about tournament play, but being able to drop nigh infinite sentinels/heavy weapon squads that can protect my dudes from turn 1 wipes is pretty neat (Dedicated Transports and Troops being exempted from the rule of 3).
Has anyone done something like this yet?
EDIT:
"Yo dawg, we heard you like screens, so we put a screen, in your screen, so you can screen with a screen that is INSIDE your screen!"
I'm pretty sure they're 78 points, not 68. If you run them as Tallarn, they can move and shoot, which makes them useful light tanks. Without that, they're stuck being static pillboxes. They're reasonably tough.
The money play would be to include a tallarn battalion for ambushing, and then buy tauroxes to deploy as light tanks.
Still, real talk? Autocannons are at best "fine" and hellhounds are only 23 points more.
Autocannons are reduced by 3pts each, to 12pts in the Guard codex in Chapter Approved. The basic Taurox went from 74 to 68 when equipped with a heavy stubber. I just figured that 10x infantry squads and 10x Taurox add up to just 1080pts. That's more than enough firepower to destroy an enemies' opposing screen, and I don't think most armies could cover the same amount of ground as those 20 units. Then you can season your list to taste (tanks, lascannons, hellhounds, etc.) Oh...and you can only take 3 hellhounds. Six if you do the Artemia version.
So, what do you recommend against Knights? So far it seems they can pretty much obliterate both our infantry and our tanks with ease.
They have a very good defense against shooting (4++ always turned to 3++ on one of them).
They have great chance to go first and destroy your juicy staff before you use it.
They cant be locked in close combat and can deliver very good CC attacks.
What is your experience with them? I am very anxious to hear that
My experience so far:
Shadowsword does not help, because he is the first to die. Even if you are lucky and get the first turn, he can only damage a knight (unless you are really lucky with your dice rolls) and then die in the opponents turn.
Infantry cant do anything to knights and get vaporized VERY quickly through both shooting and close combat.
Massed Tank commanders are similar to Shadowsword, because one Knight can destroy/criticaly damage one Leman Russ in one turn of shooting.
So as part of my Guard CP Battalion for my Custodians, I've got the mandatory 2 CC + 3 Infantry Squads, but I've also got some points left over to upgrade them. I can potentially take Plasma or Flamers, and have 3x Autocannon teams. Would it be worth taking these or keeping them bare-bones?
Ravemastaj wrote: Autocannons are reduced by 3pts each, to 12pts in the Guard codex in Chapter Approved. The basic Taurox went from 74 to 68 when equipped with a heavy stubber. I just figured that 10x infantry squads and 10x Taurox add up to just 1080pts. That's more than enough firepower to destroy an enemies' opposing screen, and I don't think most armies could cover the same amount of ground as those 20 units. Then you can season your list to taste (tanks, lascannons, hellhounds, etc.) Oh...and you can only take 3 hellhounds. Six if you do the Artemia version.
Yeah, the autocannons went down 3 each, but the base taurox went up to 50... so it's 74 stock or 78 with a stubber. And Hellhounds can be squadroned up, so you can drop up to 9.
I just wouldn't spam the basic autocannon. It's a niche weapon that has decent ability to fill in other roles, but it's too few shots for effective anti-horde, and at S7 AP1 it's at best mediocre anti-tank.
Guard have some of the best anti-screen units in mortars and infantry with orders. Like I said, if you run tallarn, the Taurox is reasonably decent, but more as a durable objective grabber that can do a bit of work than a real heavy lifter. I mean, two Tauroxes with stubbers are the same as an LRBT with stubber, and I know which one I would rather have.
DoomMouse wrote: Are vultures really that bad? To me they seem like a punisher but tougher (more wounds and -1 to hit), faster, potentially better ballistic skill, and can't be locked in CC.
They're not terrible, but they're not great. Tank commanders can get BS 3+ easily and then add a free re-roll 1s buff, while the Vulture is BS 4+ (5+ if the target can fly!) unless it forfeits its -1 to hit and the ability to move to get that 24" gun into range. With a large model on a tall base you're never going to get out of LOS, so your only defense is your stat line. As a flyer, the Vulture will never be able to score objectives while the LRBT can even get objective secured! Finally, insult to injury is that the Vulture has to pay 40 points for a twin weapon while the LRBT pays 20 points for a single weapon and fires it twice. It all adds up to a unit that is weaker, but probably not by such a margin that you'll automatically lose if you love the model and put one on the table.
Would straffing run not take care of the BS issue?
Vulture is BS 4+. So after moving strafing run bonis negates heavy weapon shoot after moving penalty. So still 4+. TCs are BS 3+ and grinding advance negates penalty for moving and shooting turreted weapon so still BS 3+
Gnollu wrote: Vulture is BS 4+. So after moving strafing run bonis negates heavy weapon shoot after moving penalty. So still 4+. TCs are BS 3+ and grinding advance negates penalty for moving and shooting turreted weapon so still BS 3+
So, what do you recommend against Knights? So far it seems they can pretty much obliterate both our infantry and our tanks with ease.
They have a very good defense against shooting (4++ always turned to 3++ on one of them).
They have great chance to go first and destroy your juicy staff before you use it.
They cant be locked in close combat and can deliver very good CC attacks.
What is your experience with them? I am very anxious to hear that
My experience so far:
Shadowsword does not help, because he is the first to die. Even if you are lucky and get the first turn, he can only damage a knight (unless you are really lucky with your dice rolls) and then die in the opponents turn.
Infantry cant do anything to knights and get vaporized VERY quickly through both shooting and close combat.
Massed Tank commanders are similar to Shadowsword, because one Knight can destroy/criticaly damage one Leman Russ in one turn of shooting.
1. Win roll-off for 1st turn (by far, the most important part).
2. Unveil Relic of Lost Cadia (this step may not be necessary, if you don't need to move to target the 3++ knight).
3. Move warlord with Old Grudges & Relic of Lost Cadia within 6" of Pask w/ executioner, lascannon, and heavy bolters, Tank Commander w/ executioner, lascannon, and heavy bolters, and Shadowsword w/ twin heavy bolter sponsons.
3. Pask orders himself to Pound Them to Dust.
4. Tank Commander orders himself to Pound Them to Dust.
5. Fire Pask at 3++ knight for 5.98 unsaved wounds.
6. Use Overlapping Fields of Fire on 3++ knight.
7. Fire Tank Commaner at 3++ knight for 5.98 unsaved wounds.
8. Fire Shadowsword at 3++ knight for 18.43 unsaved wounds.
9. 3++ knight is destroyed.
10. 3++ gets back up 75% of the time and wins anyway.
Ravemastaj wrote: Autocannons are reduced by 3pts each, to 12pts in the Guard codex in Chapter Approved. The basic Taurox went from 74 to 68 when equipped with a heavy stubber. I just figured that 10x infantry squads and 10x Taurox add up to just 1080pts. That's more than enough firepower to destroy an enemies' opposing screen, and I don't think most armies could cover the same amount of ground as those 20 units. Then you can season your list to taste (tanks, lascannons, hellhounds, etc.) Oh...and you can only take 3 hellhounds. Six if you do the Artemia version.
Yeah, the autocannons went down 3 each, but the base taurox went up to 50... so it's 74 stock or 78 with a stubber. And Hellhounds can be squadroned up, so you can drop up to 9.
I just wouldn't spam the basic autocannon. It's a niche weapon that has decent ability to fill in other roles, but it's too few shots for effective anti-horde, and at S7 AP1 it's at best mediocre anti-tank.
Guard have some of the best anti-screen units in mortars and infantry with orders. Like I said, if you run tallarn, the Taurox is reasonably decent, but more as a durable objective grabber that can do a bit of work than a real heavy lifter. I mean, two Tauroxes with stubbers are the same as an LRBT with stubber, and I know which one I would rather have.
Well, that 10 point difference changes everything. I was figuring the anti-horde could've been handled en-masse (5-6 casualties every turn while wounding on 2+/3+ can melt most armies other than Orks, and having 10 gives you 40 autocannons and 30 stubbers...a respectable amount of dakka). The extra 100 points makes them just on the edge of utility- now I figure they can fill gaps that can't be filled by sentinels and hellhounds, although with you pointing out that hellhounds can be in squadrons it looks like there are going to be very few holes to fill that wouldn't just be infantry.
I might still give it a go in smaller games, and it seems like a decent tactic for Apocalypse if you need to get across some boards.
jaxor1983 wrote: 1. Win roll-off for 1st turn (by far, the most important part).
2. Unveil Relic of Lost Cadia (this step may not be necessary, if you don't need to move to target the 3++ knight).
3. Move warlord with Old Grudges & Relic of Lost Cadia within 6" of Pask w/ executioner, lascannon, and heavy bolters, Tank Commander w/ executioner, lascannon, and heavy bolters, and Shadowsword w/ twin heavy bolter sponsons.
3. Pask orders himself to Pound Them to Dust.
4. Tank Commander orders himself to Pound Them to Dust.
5. Fire Pask at 3++ knight for 5.98 unsaved wounds.
6. Use Overlapping Fields of Fire on 3++ knight.
7. Fire Tank Commaner at 3++ knight for 5.98 unsaved wounds.
8. Fire Shadowsword at 3++ knight for 18.43 unsaved wounds.
9. 3++ knight is destroyed.
10. 3++ gets back up 75% of the time and wins anyway.
The end.
Alternatively don't fire at the knight with 4++ warlord trait to begin with. No 3++.
Alternative B: Shoot at it with your least significant guns that 3++ would still help. If he pops strategem unless you still cause significant damage SWITCH TARGET. He has spent 1 or 3 CP for 3++ and you then shoot at 5++ knight instead. Bwahahaha. Alternatively if he saves strategem to get that shadowsword screened you get to shoot all the others without. That's what keeps happening to me which is why I have started to be more tighter with the inv boosting.
So, what do you recommend against Knights? So far it seems they can pretty much obliterate both our infantry and our tanks with ease.
They have a very good defense against shooting (4++ always turned to 3++ on one of them).
They have great chance to go first and destroy your juicy staff before you use it.
They cant be locked in close combat and can deliver very good CC attacks.
What is your experience with them? I am very anxious to hear that
My experience so far:
Shadowsword does not help, because he is the first to die. Even if you are lucky and get the first turn, he can only damage a knight (unless you are really lucky with your dice rolls) and then die in the opponents turn.
Infantry cant do anything to knights and get vaporized VERY quickly through both shooting and close combat.
Massed Tank commanders are similar to Shadowsword, because one Knight can destroy/criticaly damage one Leman Russ in one turn of shooting.
Go the other way the best anti knight unit is the infantry man the more the better
As long as your not playing with clocks
I sometimes run AM/BA and with a core of 12 infantry squads 6 scout squads and 3 HWT. Its very tough for the knight player.
In pure guard a couple of sentinals in place of scouts though they are not as good
A unit of crusaders with an astropath/primaris is also a solid delay watch a knight comedically stomp a 2+ inv unit and kill 1.
The aim is not to kill the knights but to out objective them. Deploy 2 scout squads in lines 9" from the knights this blocks their advance
You want the other scout squads back a bit in cover if possible but able to form up in lines just outside heroic intervention range.
Thats T1/T2 Once there gone your infantry should be in position repeat
Typically the knights squish the two units they can get to and shoot up 2-3 more meanwhile you hold the objectives.
Adding yet more infantry and cheap characters is great for this.
Remember they cant advance over infantry only fall back overthem.
Also its well funny when a castellan is forced to shoot a 4pts guardsman.
(Note games may be slow)
jaxor1983 wrote: 1. Win roll-off for 1st turn (by far, the most important part).
2. Unveil Relic of Lost Cadia (this step may not be necessary, if you don't need to move to target the 3++ knight).
3. Move warlord with Old Grudges & Relic of Lost Cadia within 6" of Pask w/ executioner, lascannon, and heavy bolters, Tank Commander w/ executioner, lascannon, and heavy bolters, and Shadowsword w/ twin heavy bolter sponsons.
3. Pask orders himself to Pound Them to Dust.
4. Tank Commander orders himself to Pound Them to Dust.
5. Fire Pask at 3++ knight for 5.98 unsaved wounds.
6. Use Overlapping Fields of Fire on 3++ knight.
7. Fire Tank Commaner at 3++ knight for 5.98 unsaved wounds.
8. Fire Shadowsword at 3++ knight for 18.43 unsaved wounds.
9. 3++ knight is destroyed.
10. 3++ gets back up 75% of the time and wins anyway.
The end.
Alternatively don't fire at the knight with 4++ warlord trait to begin with. No 3++.
Alternative B: Shoot at it with your least significant guns that 3++ would still help. If he pops strategem unless you still cause significant damage SWITCH TARGET. He has spent 1 or 3 CP for 3++ and you then shoot at 5++ knight instead. Bwahahaha. Alternatively if he saves strategem to get that shadowsword screened you get to shoot all the others without. That's what keeps happening to me which is why I have started to be more tighter with the inv boosting.
This is a valid backup strategy - an effort to get some points out of a game after when you know you've lost. But it sort of feeds into the "play around the castellan" theory, which can potentially only work if you spam infantry, which is tedious and (in my opinion) boring.
If he has castellan that#s nice for this trick. 3cp for rotate, then you ignore it. Castellan good but kill couple smaller ones and he'll struggle with objectives.
I put 4++ on castellan precicely because i can't really use strat on it barring shadowsword preparing to fire at it
BTW on YMDC was pointed out valid way which counters RIS pretty well. Start up with shadowsword. Declare targets for it. Pick 2 knights. Knight player then has to choose whether to activate +1 inv save. Then fire AT guns on the other knight and heavy bolter(s) to the boosted shield one. Watch knight go up in flames along with 1 CP.
Only time this doesn't really work is if you are up against raven castellan at which point you pretty much need to try at that castellan and hope for best unless you are satisfied at trading shadowsword for one of the other knights and 3 CP from knights when he boosts shields for castellan and you shoot at other knight with volcano cannon instead.
jaxor1983 wrote: But it sort of feeds into the "play around the castellan" theory, which can potentially only work if you spam infantry, which is tedious and (in my opinion) boring.
I'm not sure why you're shooting down the idea. "Play around the death star" is the standard way to win against death star lists. If they dump a ton of resources into creating an unkillable brick of HP you kill the rest of their army, make all of the points/CP they invested into defense worthless, and win the game on the objectives. Investing into killing the death star is playing right into their strategy.
tneva82 wrote: BTW on YMDC was pointed out valid way which counters RIS pretty well. Start up with shadowsword. Declare targets for it. Pick 2 knights. Knight player then has to choose whether to activate +1 inv save. Then fire AT guns on the other knight and heavy bolter(s) to the boosted shield one. Watch knight go up in flames along with 1 CP.
Only time this doesn't really work is if you are up against raven castellan at which point you pretty much need to try at that castellan and hope for best unless you are satisfied at trading shadowsword for one of the other knights and 3 CP from knights when he boosts shields for castellan and you shoot at other knight with volcano cannon instead.
tneva82 wrote: BTW on YMDC was pointed out valid way which counters RIS pretty well. Start up with shadowsword. Declare targets for it. Pick 2 knights. Knight player then has to choose whether to activate +1 inv save. Then fire AT guns on the other knight and heavy bolter(s) to the boosted shield one. Watch knight go up in flames along with 1 CP.
Only time this doesn't really work is if you are up against raven castellan at which point you pretty much need to try at that castellan and hope for best unless you are satisfied at trading shadowsword for one of the other knights and 3 CP from knights when he boosts shields for castellan and you shoot at other knight with volcano cannon instead.
Nice ! Pretty useful rules trick.
You can also take this strategy a step further, and say, "I'm going to target Questoris Knight." Wait for them to say, "OK, I'm going to use RIS on that Knight." Then say, "I'm also going to target Dominus Knight."
jaxor1983 wrote: But it sort of feeds into the "play around the castellan" theory, which can potentially only work if you spam infantry, which is tedious and (in my opinion) boring.
I'm not sure why you're shooting down the idea. "Play around the death star" is the standard way to win against death star lists. If they dump a ton of resources into creating an unkillable brick of HP you kill the rest of their army, make all of the points/CP they invested into defense worthless, and win the game on the objectives. Investing into killing the death star is playing right into their strategy.
The difference between ignoring an invulnerable death start from 7th and ignoring a Raven Castellan is that the Raven Castellan will kill most of its points back every turn in the shooting phase alone (again, unless your list consists solely of low threat units).
Lothar wrote: Yes, our stratagems are quite bad in comparison to others. Thats the reason why guard is mostly use as CP farm and back objective holder. Most players use the CPs for other detachments, like blood angels or custodes.
Just look at their strats...chaos, eldar, tyranids, ba, custodes...we cant compare to those...
You can also take this strategy a step further, and say, "I'm going to target Questoris Knight." Wait for them to say, "OK, I'm going to use RIS on that Knight." Then say, "I'm also going to target Dominus Knight."
That wouldn't fly in most circles. Aside from being really gamey it's just kind of a move. I could see someone doing it to a friend to mess with them once as a joke but that absolutely would not hold up to any judge who isn't a moron. That's not tactics or skillful play, that's intentionally trying to trip up your opponent through abusing a gamey interpretation of the rules. I would expect most areas to say something along the lines of "no, you need to declare all your targets so he can decide where he pops the strategem. If you waited that long and didn't say anything then it's clear you weren't going to shoot anything else and are now just trying to cheat the system because he rotated ion shields. Have fun shooting the questoris." Even if that is technically RAW, I would not expect to be invited back for a game after pulling something like that. I know in my area that would be a surefire way to never get a game again.
Of course maybe you're just joking here, tone can be hard to interpret in text. I just don't want to see something that is so clearly abusive and in bad sportsmanship be suggested in a tactics thread that tons of new players read every day. This isn't a tactic, it's borderline (or in my opinion, absolutely) cheating. We have enough TFG's exploiting RAW as it is, last thing we need to do is actively encourage it as advice.
You can also take this strategy a step further, and say, "I'm going to target Questoris Knight." Wait for them to say, "OK, I'm going to use RIS on that Knight." Then say, "I'm also going to target Dominus Knight."
That wouldn't fly in most circles. Aside from being really gamey it's just kind of a move. I could see someone doing it to a friend to mess with them once as a joke but that absolutely would not hold up to any judge who isn't a moron. That's not tactics or skillful play, that's intentionally trying to trip up your opponent through abusing a gamey interpretation of the rules. I would expect most areas to say something along the lines of "no, you need to declare all your targets so he can decide where he pops the strategem. If you waited that long and didn't say anything then it's clear you weren't going to shoot anything else and are now just trying to cheat the system because he rotated ion shields. Have fun shooting the questoris." Even if that is technically RAW, I would not expect to be invited back for a game after pulling something like that. I know in my area that would be a surefire way to never get a game again.
Of course maybe you're just joking here, tone can be hard to interpret in text. I just don't want to see something that is so clearly abusive and in bad sportsmanship be suggested in a tactics thread that tons of new players read every day. This isn't a tactic, it's borderline (or in my opinion, absolutely) cheating. We have enough TFG's exploiting RAW as it is, last thing we need to do is actively encourage it as advice.
Yeah that's pretty dick move. And I would arque illegal. You declare targets, THEN RIS comes. Just declare them, have knight declare which he protects and fire only heavy bolter to it and rest to the regular inv save one. Good enough.
Since a castellan kills a baneblade chasis in one round of shooting on average dice, is the consensus that the only way to effectively field a baneblade chasis right now is Tallarn?
tag8833 wrote: Since a castellan kills a baneblade chasis in one round of shooting on average dice, is the consensus that the only way to effectively field a baneblade chasis right now is Tallarn?
Well.. You could go Valhallan, place it 50% obscured by a ruin, and have a techpriest repair it if it survives and then maybe it would survive a round on Raven Castellan shooting on mid tier and still be able to do something bottom of 1.
tag8833 wrote: Since a castellan kills a baneblade chasis in one round of shooting on average dice, is the consensus that the only way to effectively field a baneblade chasis right now is Tallarn?
Well.. You could go Valhallan, place it 50% obscured by a ruin, and have a techpriest repair it if it survives and then maybe it would survive a round on Raven Castellan shooting on mid tier and still be able to do something bottom of 1.
I would recommend you not try this. A Castellan does 30.4 unsaved wounds on average to a baneblade in cover.
Also, if you have a table where you can put an entire baneblade into ruins, I'd like to see that table.
Woof. Whatever house trait is the same as Valhallan mixed with rotate ion shields = 36 damage to my shadowsword (with nightshroud!) after that damn thing walked right up to it and ate my entire army's firepower ... I thought I messed it up at least when I did like 16dmg to it. That thing is terrifying.
Colonel Cross wrote: Woof. Whatever house trait is the same as Valhallan mixed with rotate ion shields = 36 damage to my shadowsword (with nightshroud!) after that damn thing walked right up to it and ate my entire army's firepower ... I thought I messed it up at least when I did like 16dmg to it. That thing is terrifying.
Yup it's basically custom made to kill shadowswords and other things of similar type. Or vehicles in general. You basically need 2 shadowswords AND go first or you will lose your shadowsword first. If he goes first that shadowsword goes bum. If you go first at least you get damage to it but better hope you have more firepower or it blow your shadowsword up in retaliation.
In bigger games scale starts to turn in favour of shadowswords due to unscalability of strategems but not many plays big enough games for multiple shadowswords and multiple castellans to be a thing.
Colonel Cross wrote: Woof. Whatever house trait is the same as Valhallan mixed with rotate ion shields = 36 damage to my shadowsword (with nightshroud!) after that damn thing walked right up to it and ate my entire army's firepower ... I thought I messed it up at least when I did like 16dmg to it. That thing is terrifying.
Yup it's basically custom made to kill shadowswords and other things of similar type. Or vehicles in general. You basically need 2 shadowswords AND go first or you will lose your shadowsword first. If he goes first that shadowsword goes bum. If you go first at least you get damage to it but better hope you have more firepower or it blow your shadowsword up in retaliation.
In bigger games scale starts to turn in favour of shadowswords due to unscalability of strategems but not many plays big enough games for multiple shadowswords and multiple castellans to be a thing.
I run my shadowsword as Tallarn when i play them (and that was long before Knight Castallen became a thing). I've found a lot of stuff can take down a shadowsword :(
Colonel Cross wrote: Woof. Whatever house trait is the same as Valhallan mixed with rotate ion shields = 36 damage to my shadowsword (with nightshroud!) after that damn thing walked right up to it and ate my entire army's firepower ... I thought I messed it up at least when I did like 16dmg to it. That thing is terrifying.
Yup it's basically custom made to kill shadowswords and other things of similar type. Or vehicles in general. You basically need 2 shadowswords AND go first or you will lose your shadowsword first. If he goes first that shadowsword goes bum. If you go first at least you get damage to it but better hope you have more firepower or it blow your shadowsword up in retaliation.
In bigger games scale starts to turn in favour of shadowswords due to unscalability of strategems but not many plays big enough games for multiple shadowswords and multiple castellans to be a thing.
I run my shadowsword as Tallarn when i play them (and that was long before Knight Castallen became a thing). I've found a lot of stuff can take down a shadowsword :(
Yep that will at least allow you to dent the knight but make sure you have something else that ~equal(well not quite that much needed) shadowsword AT output if you don't want to lose your shadowsword.
Kcalehc wrote: You lose the Storm Troopers Doctrine if you have the Primaris Psyker and Bullgryns in the same Detachment.
Vox Casters are kind of meh, just keep one Prime close enough to two squads and you're fine anyway, you have enough orders to go around.
You won't lose the doctrine. Bullgryn and Psykers are support units that don't impact on you receiving the doctrine - just like Scions don't impact on other regiments getting their bonuses if you add them in.
Kcalehc wrote: You lose the Storm Troopers Doctrine if you have the Primaris Psyker and Bullgryns in the same Detachment.
Vox Casters are kind of meh, just keep one Prime close enough to two squads and you're fine anyway, you have enough orders to go around.
You won't lose the doctrine. Bullgryn and Psykers are support units that don't impact on you receiving the doctrine - just like Scions don't impact on other regiments getting their bonuses if you add them in.
Then have RAW guys go on about the MT entry below support unit paragraph. That's never ending arqument unless GW flat out says how it works
Kcalehc wrote: You lose the Storm Troopers Doctrine if you have the Primaris Psyker and Bullgryns in the same Detachment.
Vox Casters are kind of meh, just keep one Prime close enough to two squads and you're fine anyway, you have enough orders to go around.
You won't lose the doctrine. Bullgryn and Psykers are support units that don't impact on you receiving the doctrine - just like Scions don't impact on other regiments getting their bonuses if you add them in.
Then have RAW guys go on about the MT entry below support unit paragraph. That's never ending arqument unless GW flat out says how it works
At work so not got the codex to hand, but, I thought the Tempestus section was in a different section to the Auxilla section, which lays out different rulings. (and i believe the Scions section is listed in the codex before Auxila gets mentioned).
Scions can go into any Regiment, but they won’t get a trait. They only get the trait if the regiment is “Militarum Tempestus“. The Auxila section then goes on about how the listed units can be included into an “Astra Militarum” detachment without penalty, but the Auxila don’t get a trait.
Because the Astra Militarum detachment is a Militarum Tempestus detachment, the Scions would have their trait, while the Auxila added in would not penalise the Scions.
Kdash wrote: Scions can go into any Regiment, but they won’t get a trait. They only get the trait if the regiment is “Militarum Tempestus“. The Auxila section then goes on about how the listed units can be included into an “Astra Militarum” detachment without penalty, but the Auxila don’t get a trait.
Because the Astra Militarum detachment is a Militarum Tempestus detachment, the Scions would have their trait, while the Auxila added in would not penalise the Scions.
Scion says they get trait if every model has the scion keyword. This has caused tons of arquments due to scion start collecting box having commisar. They arque scion text(and I'm pretty sure that was after auxilia) is specific exception to the auxilia rule.
So having recently acquired a shadowsword what's the verdict on the best doctrine for it? Cadian or catachan would both be nice buffs to it's offensive output but tallarn seems pretty useful for making sure it survives the first turn and vahallan for making sure that degrading is less of an issue.
gbghg wrote: So having recently acquired a shadowsword what's the verdict on the best doctrine for it? Cadian or catachan would both be nice buffs to it's offensive output but tallarn seems pretty useful for making sure it survives the first turn and vahallan for making sure that degrading is less of an issue.
For firepower there is no better choice than Vostroyan. +1BS on such platform is insane and longer range of those 30 heavy bolter shots helps a lot. However, in current knight-heavy meta tallarn is also nice to hide it first and shoot first.
gbghg wrote: So having recently acquired a shadowsword what's the verdict on the best doctrine for it? Cadian or catachan would both be nice buffs to it's offensive output but tallarn seems pretty useful for making sure it survives the first turn and vahallan for making sure that degrading is less of an issue.
Cadian can also use overlapping fields of fire for +1 BS vs a guy that took a wound already. You can also still move and use the relic of lost Cadia to rerolls those 1's.
gbghg wrote: So having recently acquired a shadowsword what's the verdict on the best doctrine for it? Cadian or catachan would both be nice buffs to it's offensive output but tallarn seems pretty useful for making sure it survives the first turn and vahallan for making sure that degrading is less of an issue.
Cadian can also use overlapping fields of fire for +1 BS vs a guy that took a wound already. You can also still move and use the relic of lost Cadia to rerolls those 1's.
In theory - yes.
In practice you usually want to split fire from volcano and bolters - in result, not having +1BS to everything. And you have to wound your main target first - so instead of blowing it up with volcano cannon on sight, you waste some other firepower to wound it (and it's usually hard to wound target). And it costs 2CP not 1. Rerolling 1 is nice, but you dont want your big tank to sit in one place. Relic is one-use only but nice - other options to give sword rerols are catachan harker and generic Yarrick (or options from other codexes such as bobby).
With Vostroya you get simple and effective gem making it much more killy and having increased range for free.
I see a lot of people talking about which Regiment to take and it seems like it's mainly Cadian, Catachan or Vostroyans?
But anyhow, for people that are using the Catachan regiment... are you guys actually using the GW catachan jungle fighter models?
Same going for the other regiments as well?
Or do you just pick that regiment but use the cadian shock trooper models etc.
Imperial Guardsmen come in an infinite number of combinations of look and doctrine so it's probably the most lassire-faire when it comes to troops matching the look of the doctrine.
I personally built some city-fighters using a mix of catachan, caidian, and scion parts on top of space marine scout legs. They looked great and the parts all mesh well together. The only time I've seen anyone complain is when you have multiple detachments with different doctrines. If you bring a side detachment of Tallarn, people better be able to tell them apart from your cadians, at least in paint scheme.
I see a lot of people talking about which Regiment to take and it seems like it's mainly Cadian, Catachan or Vostroyans?
But anyhow, for people that are using the Catachan regiment... are you guys actually using the GW catachan jungle fighter models?
Same going for the other regiments as well?
Or do you just pick that regiment but use the cadian shock trooper models etc.
To answer your question directly:
Catachans have recently been the doctrine of choice in tournament lists, and those armies rarely include actual Catachan models.
I know I use Cadian models with Tallarn rules to represent my regiment. Fluff wise, Cadian armour and equipment is produced by countless worlds all over the Imperium, so it can end up in the hands of anyone from iceworlders to feudal warrior societies.
ChargerIIC wrote: If you bring a side detachment of Tallarn, people better be able to tell them apart from your cadians, at least in paint scheme.
That is really the key. As long as you put a bit of effort in and don't take liberties, the only people who will have a problem are probably ones you don't want to play anyway.
This weekend I will play a game against an opponent who's taking a lot of Eldar shennanigans with him. Now I know nothing of all of this stuff or what makes his list work, so I can use some tips on how to deal with it. I guess his goal is to kill characters and infantry so I might be good there.
His list: Farseers skyrunner x2
Warlock
3 x 10 rangers
Hemlock wraightfighter
--
Archon + Haemonculus + Succubus
3 x 5 Kabalite warriors
2x 10 and 6 Mandrakes
--
2 x Shadowseer
2 x Death Jester
Solitaire.
My list: HQ: Straken + 2 company commanders
Troops: 5 catachan infantry units with flamer or plasma
1 unit of scions in chimera
Fast: 3 Artemia Hellhounds
Elite: Sgt Harker + priest + 2x platoon commander with fist
Heavy: 2x basilisk / 2x Conqueror Russ / Colussus bombard / Heavy weapon team
And a nice Lightning strike fighter with Hellfire rockets.
I guess I just blast the **** out of his various units from a distance while moving my infantry to the front and into combat as long as my characters last. The hellhounds drive into his units pell mell for some nice explosions when they blow up. My priority target will be the Hemlock fighter but I don't know what is scary next to that one. Which units to focus on and which units are capable of dealing a lot of damage on my tanks?
Singleton Mosby wrote: This weekend I will play a game against an opponent who's taking a lot of Eldar shennanigans with him. Now I know nothing of all of this stuff or what makes his list work, so I can use some tips on how to deal with it. I guess his goal is to kill characters and infantry so I might be good there.
His list: Farseers skyrunner x2
Warlock
3 x 10 rangers
Hemlock wraightfighter
--
Archon + Haemonculus + Succubus
3 x 5 Kabalite warriors
2x 10 and 6 Mandrakes
--
2 x Shadowseer
2 x Death Jester
Solitaire.
My list: HQ: Straken + 2 company commanders
Troops: 5 catachan infantry units with flamer or plasma
1 unit of scions in chimera
Fast: 3 Artemia Hellhounds
Elite: Sgt Harker + priest + 2x platoon commander with fist
Heavy: 2x basilisk / 2x Conqueror Russ / Colussus bombard / Heavy weapon team
And a nice Lightning strike fighter with Hellfire rockets.
I guess I just blast the **** out of his various units from a distance while moving my infantry to the front and into combat as long as my characters last. The hellhounds drive into his units pell mell for some nice explosions when they blow up. My priority target will be the Hemlock fighter but I don't know what is scary next to that one. Which units to focus on and which units are capable of dealing a lot of damage on my tanks?
It's been a while since I went full tread head but my advice:
1) Rush the Artemia Hellhounds forwards as fast and as far as you can. If just one explodes within your lines it can ruin your day, but if it explodes amongst the enemy it can make your day. Since he has a hemlock, the goal will be to nail it down somewhere away from your tanks with 1 or 2 hellhounds.
2) Push the catachan foward (except a couple screening squads for those tanks) using orders and advancing whenever possible. STR4 melee versus T3 eldar is good times. Put the priest right smack in the middle so all the infantry have to be shot first before he'll die
3) Keep the tanks at maximum range as much as you can. Hard to do with an enemy fighter, but you don't want to get tricked into melee with the things.
Overdose wrote: Any suggestions on this 750pts starter-build?
HWS (other than mortars) are trash and should never be taken. They're very expensive and die very quickly because they have no ablative wounds to soak up fire. Every wound goes straight to the expensive guns, and autocannon equivalents are wounding on a 2+ and killing a lascannon with every failed 6+ (or worse) save. Mortars are the one exception since they can hide out of LOS and not get shot at all. Put the lascannons in your infantry squads and the infantry squad mortars in HWS, and you should probably dump the missile HWS for some plasma guns and plasma storm troopers.
Just came back after a long break (3 years), from a few lists I've seen it seems horde guard is the way to go now. I was wondering if mech guard is at all viable still. I ran a heavily mechanized list a while back, but it seems vehicles in general got a price increase but didn't gain too much effectiveness.
Spartan089 wrote: Just came back after a long break (3 years), from a few lists I've seen it seems horde guard is the way to go now. I was wondering if mech guard is at all viable still. I ran a heavily mechanized list a while back, but it seems vehicles in general got a price increase but didn't gain too much effectiveness.
Welcome! Guard itself is decent with multiple options but "mechanized" perform poorly with some expections in current meta. Also, due to "soup" lists including guard expect some nerfs that will affect Guard lists probably.
Forget about Chimeras now. They are absolute garbage - cost a lot and gives almost nothing for it's price. If you want transports get Tauroxes and Valkyries.
From vechicles, Command Tanks (Battle Tank and Punishers) are best choice. Hellhounds, Basilisk, Wyverns, Manticores are decent choices too.
However, there is no point playing fully mechanized guard, as you need some infantry to hold objectives (if you use them) and buying them expensive transports to protect 40pts infantry is not worth.
For best mechanized-guard try Banehammer (baneblade variant with solid gun countering hard to kill fast units like taloses and transport cap with option to shoot from it) with plasma command squads. It works very well and fun, but of course if you play against Castellans that are everywhere you will lose every vechicle quickly. Wait for "september" FAQ if you want to see what is worth buying.
I've been throwing 2 Astropaths armed with Telepthica Staves in my Valkyrie with my Bullgryns and Priest to throw out Barrier and NIghtshroud but it almost seems better to just throw a commissar armed with a power ax for more attacks at S4 with some AP
Singleton Mosby wrote: This weekend I will play a game against an opponent who's taking a lot of Eldar shennanigans with him. Now I know nothing of all of this stuff or what makes his list work, so I can use some tips on how to deal with it. I guess his goal is to kill characters and infantry so I might be good there.
His list: Farseers skyrunner x2
Warlock
3 x 10 rangers
Hemlock wraightfighter
--
Archon + Haemonculus + Succubus
3 x 5 Kabalite warriors
2x 10 and 6 Mandrakes
--
2 x Shadowseer
2 x Death Jester
Solitaire.
My list: HQ: Straken + 2 company commanders
Troops: 5 catachan infantry units with flamer or plasma
1 unit of scions in chimera
Fast: 3 Artemia Hellhounds
Elite: Sgt Harker + priest + 2x platoon commander with fist
Heavy: 2x basilisk / 2x Conqueror Russ / Colussus bombard / Heavy weapon team
And a nice Lightning strike fighter with Hellfire rockets.
I guess I just blast the **** out of his various units from a distance while moving my infantry to the front and into combat as long as my characters last. The hellhounds drive into his units pell mell for some nice explosions when they blow up. My priority target will be the Hemlock fighter but I don't know what is scary next to that one. Which units to focus on and which units are capable of dealing a lot of damage on my tanks?
Well, i am afraid your characters will die turn one or two. With 30 rangers they dont really stand a chance. Your armored fist can help you hide them though...
Hemlocks are a bitch to deal with if they're alatoic, -2 to hit is a bitch to deal with as guard and their maneuverability let's them completely dictate the range, D-scythe let's them mess your vehicle's up nicely as well. Hellhounds are your best bet against it due to the autohitting and similar ranges for the scythe and inferno cannon. From personal experience against them either have a plan to kill it turn 1 or just ignore it and murder the rest of his army, otherwise you'll just waste so much shooting on it that could be killing other things.
Will be an interesting unit, depending on how the FAQ goes.
On the one hand, that's as close to a medium tank we'll ever get, with Twin lascannon and multi-laser sponsons for 100pts. On the other hand it's forgeworld so prepare to donate your own or someone else's kidneys to be able to afford a squadron.
Will be an interesting unit, depending on how the FAQ goes.
On the one hand, that's as close to a medium tank we'll ever get, with Twin lascannon and multi-laser sponsons for 100pts. On the other hand it's forgeworld so prepare to donate your own or someone else's kidneys to be able to afford a squadron.
you can only take 3 so it won't be tooooooo horrible.
Has anyone tried using the Marauder Destroyer? Seems like a decent mobile fire base thats not too horribly over costed like most the FW units.
Will be an interesting unit, depending on how the FAQ goes.
Interesting unit with the Vulkite main gun and sponsons. At 108 points, it's cheaper than a BBQ chimera with an interesting niche but costs the same as a Basilisk. Not sure if fishing for sixes against larger targets is the best use but it could be a funny way to help burn down a Knight in a pinch. Makes for a pretty decent Primaris/Plague Marine killer with the eight 2D shots + mortal wounds, I'd say maybe even better than a Basilisk at that particular job due to the fixed damage and shots. Pity my recaster doesn't seem to carry them.
On the one hand, that's as close to a medium tank we'll ever get, with Twin lascannon and multi-laser sponsons for 100pts. On the other hand it's forgeworld so prepare to donate your own or someone else's kidneys to be able to afford a squadron.
I mean it seems fairly easy to convert so unless you really want the official model it shouldn't bring down it's viability. Speaking of which if the big FAQ rules that regenerated CP can only be spent by those individual detachments that spent them, how viable will guard be on their own?
From my brief catching up, it seems we're really only used as a CP battery and cheap objective holders. We lack any hard hitting mobile unit, hence we ally smash captains and Castilians. If they over cost the latter we still have Shadowswords. However what do we have to replace smash captains?
Will be an interesting unit, depending on how the FAQ goes.
Unfortunately, it's no different than any other guard tank with expensive weapons on it in that it hits on 5s if you move. If you aren't gonna move, then there are many better options already.
Will be an interesting unit, depending on how the FAQ goes.
Unfortunately, it's no different than any other guard tank with expensive weapons on it in that it hits on 5s if you move. If you aren't gonna move, then there are many better options already.
Tallarn lets it still be pretty mobile while getting its gun on. Not too much of a stretch to run a spearhead of these with a Primaris Psyker if you really wanted to.
On the one hand, that's as close to a medium tank we'll ever get, with Twin lascannon and multi-laser sponsons for 100pts. On the other hand it's forgeworld so prepare to donate your own or someone else's kidneys to be able to afford a squadron.
I mean it seems fairly easy to convert so unless you really want the official model it shouldn't bring down it's viability. Speaking of which if the big FAQ rules that regenerated CP can only be spent by those individual detachments that spent them, how viable will guard be on their own?
From my brief catching up, it seems we're really only used as a CP battery and cheap objective holders. We lack any hard hitting mobile unit, hence we ally smash captains and Castilians. If they over cost the latter we still have Shadowswords. However what do we have to replace smash captains?
A backwards Leman Russ with sponsons and a predator las turret pretty much do the job. Just a bit a rearranging and cutting do the job.
Brilliant! I might just do that. I really like the idea of a cheaper Autocannon platform than a regular Russ, and Sentinels just can't quite do the job.
So I've just bought a couple of replacement turrets for my Russes, as the Ryza ones look much better than the plastic version, and now I have a few spare turrets lying around I'm considering converting them and trying out the Russ weapons I've barely used before, are these actually any good though?
Exterminator sounds a bit mediocre but with Grinding Advance, 8 Autocannon shots sounds pretty good.
Eradicator looks crap, I can't see the appeal in it.
Punisher I've been told is only good if you use it on Pask, yet he's already using a Vanquisher, can the Punisher be any good on it's own?
Additionally, looking at the Stygies Vanquisher, for 18pts more than my standard Vanquisher loadout I get +1 to hit Vehicles with the main cannon, and can re-roll misses if the Heavy Stubber hits, worth it?
Is the Leman russ Extermintor really worth it? I get for less pts (granted only some) a normal battlecannon that only has on average 1 shot less but a better profile for dealing with bigger stuff.
I guess you pay for the reliability but do people consider it decentish? Or is it more of a sidegrade for some matches or thematic armies?
Valkyrie wrote: Additionally, looking at the Stygies Vanquisher, for 18pts more than my standard Vanquisher loadout I get +1 to hit Vehicles with the main cannon, and can re-roll misses if the Heavy Stubber hits, worth it?
The Stygies Vanquisher has a co-axial storm bolter, not heavy stubber. Unfortunately, the Mars Alpha Pattern is only for DKoK. I was really glad I had two of them already when the new Imperial Armour came out for this edition.
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Not Online!!! wrote: Is the Leman russ Extermintor really worth it? I get for less pts (granted only some) a normal battlecannon that only has on average 1 shot less but a better profile for dealing with bigger stuff.
I guess you pay for the reliability but do people consider it decentish? Or is it more of a sidegrade for some matches or thematic armies?
It's been a minute, but I'm pretty sure the math for all typical game situations favors the batlte cannon. So there's no reason to spend that extra 3 points.
Not Online!!! wrote: Is the Leman russ Extermintor really worth it? I get for less pts (granted only some) a normal battlecannon that only has on average 1 shot less but a better profile for dealing with bigger stuff.
I guess you pay for the reliability but do people consider it decentish? Or is it more of a sidegrade for some matches or thematic armies?
Bring a conquerer instead, it's exactly a battle cannon but 48" range and has a coaxial storm boltor that let's you reroll all main turret hits at the same target you fire boltor at(doesn't have to hit just shoot). All for 3 pts more than a regular battle cannon. If I'm not bring tank commanders than that's the version I bring (as you can't give commanders the conquerer)
Not Online!!! wrote: Is the Leman russ Extermintor really worth it? I get for less pts (granted only some) a normal battlecannon that only has on average 1 shot less but a better profile for dealing with bigger stuff.
I guess you pay for the reliability but do people consider it decentish? Or is it more of a sidegrade for some matches or thematic armies?
Bring a conquerer instead, it's exactly a battle cannon but 48" range and has a coaxial storm boltor that let's you reroll all main turret hits at the same target you fire boltor at(doesn't have to hit just shoot). All for 3 pts more than a regular battle cannon. If I'm not bring tank commanders than that's the version I bring (as you can't give commanders the conquerer)
not sure if i can field one since i got the random constrictions since i am playing R&H.
If so that makes it fairly decent then.
Valkyrie wrote: So I've just bought a couple of replacement turrets for my Russes, as the Ryza ones look much better than the plastic version, and now I have a few spare turrets lying around I'm considering converting them and trying out the Russ weapons I've barely used before, are these actually any good though?
Exterminator sounds a bit mediocre but with Grinding Advance, 8 Autocannon shots sounds pretty good.
Eradicator looks crap, I can't see the appeal in it.
Punisher I've been told is only good if you use it on Pask, yet he's already using a Vanquisher, can the Punisher be any good on it's own?
Additionally, looking at the Stygies Vanquisher, for 18pts more than my standard Vanquisher loadout I get +1 to hit Vehicles with the main cannon, and can re-roll misses if the Heavy Stubber hits, worth it?
A Punisher Russ with Heavy Flamers and Track protection makes for a great distraction tank. Go ahead, shoot it! It basically doesn't degrade! Just move it up max speed at the bottom of turn one or on turn two, Strike and Shroud for some extra protection, and burn that front line!.
I've thought of using that. The new tank though gets 8 shots of Autocannon for like 106 points, with a bit better armour than a Taurox. The new tank seems like a fun choice for Lascannons too.
Weazel wrote: Scion bomb. What's the most efficient loadout? Three squads of 5 guys, 2 plasma each? Any point in hotshot volley gun?
I’m planning up a pure Scion army, so the playstyle will be a bit different. I’m planning 3 full plasma command squads to drop with a Tempestor Prime. Give him the Auto-reliquary
Fisheyes wrote: Still like the hot-shot volley gun. The trick with scions is getting critical mass. If you dont overwhelm the enemy immediately, you get swarmed
So do I, but if it was an assault weapon costing 2-3 more points, it would be able to compete with plasma guns, I think.
Weazel wrote: Scion bomb. What's the most efficient loadout? Three squads of 5 guys, 2 plasma each? Any point in hotshot volley gun?
For under 400 points I run 3 min-maxed plasma squads, a volley gun command, and 2 primes. One prime deep strikes with the plasma squads and the Laurels of Command with Inspired Tactics to order all three squads. I usually deploy the volley guns and the second prime with the Aquila to farm CPs from turn one, but I'll DS them against a static opponent. They're a glass cannon, but they usually cover their points and snag a few VPs.
Weazel wrote: Scion bomb. What's the most efficient loadout? Three squads of 5 guys, 2 plasma each? Any point in hotshot volley gun?
For under 400 points I run 3 min-maxed plasma squads, a volley gun command, and 2 primes. One prime deep strikes with the plasma squads and the Laurels of Command with Inspired Tactics to order all three squads. I usually deploy the volley guns and the second prime with the Aquila to farm CPs from turn one, but I'll DS them against a static opponent. They're a glass cannon, but they usually cover their points and snag a few VPs.
What's a min-maxed squad? 5 guys, 2 plasmaguns, plasma pistol? Or 10 guys, 4 plasmagun, plasma pistol?
Reason I'm asking is I've been using the Loyal 32, but if they nerf the CP battery I might as well run a (Scion) battalion instead that can do some damage. I've been mostly just sitting back with the guardsmen not even bothering with shooting so I'm not really a big fan of the Boring 32.
Weazel wrote: Scion bomb. What's the most efficient loadout? Three squads of 5 guys, 2 plasma each? Any point in hotshot volley gun?
For under 400 points I run 3 min-maxed plasma squads, a volley gun command, and 2 primes. One prime deep strikes with the plasma squads and the Laurels of Command with Inspired Tactics to order all three squads. I usually deploy the volley guns and the second prime with the Aquila to farm CPs from turn one, but I'll DS them against a static opponent. They're a glass cannon, but they usually cover their points and snag a few VPs.
What's a min-maxed squad? 5 guys, 2 plasmaguns, plasma pistol? Or 10 guys, 4 plasmagun, plasma pistol?
Reason I'm asking is I've been using the Loyal 32, but if they nerf the CP battery I might as well run a (Scion) battalion instead that can do some damage. I've been mostly just sitting back with the guardsmen not even bothering with shooting so I'm not really a big fan of the Boring 32.
Minimum dudes, maximum plasma, so the small squad you describe. Anything bigger can be hard to squeeze into the drop zone. They don't have much staying power at that size, so a strong counterpunch on Turn 2 is most of what you hope for.
Thoughts on straken? I hate spending so much on an HQ but with the rule of 3 I'm stretched for company commanders and he's interesting, S7 -1 2 dmg is not weak and adding more attacks to my catachan Frontline doesn't seem bad.
MacPhail wrote: Minimum dudes, maximum plasma, so the small squad you describe. Anything bigger can be hard to squeeze into the drop zone. They don't have much staying power at that size, so a strong counterpunch on Turn 2 is most of what you hope for.
I was planning on building 3 bare-bones troops squads, but then doing 2 command squads of 4 plasma each for minimum footprint and maximum plasma output. That way a Prime and 8 plasmaguns could drop in one place and get Take Aim for all guns.
Is that worse than spreading the plasma out to the normal scion squads?
MacPhail wrote: Minimum dudes, maximum plasma, so the small squad you describe. Anything bigger can be hard to squeeze into the drop zone. They don't have much staying power at that size, so a strong counterpunch on Turn 2 is most of what you hope for.
I was planning on building 3 bare-bones troops squads, but then doing 2 command squads of 4 plasma each for minimum footprint and maximum plasma output. That way a Prime and 8 plasmaguns could drop in one place and get Take Aim for all guns.
Is that worse than spreading the plasma out to the normal scion squads?
You trade a smaller footprint for your meat shields. In my experience, dropping into cover and having some ablative wounds gets me a second round of plasma shooting about half the time. The 8 plasma stack fits in tight spots and hits hard, but every wound is an expensive special weapon. It may depend who you face, too... hordes screen their backfield differently than elite armies, people who know Scions don't leave HQs exposed, etc.
Do you guys run into problems in ITC when including Scions in your lists? It feels like they give up way too many easy Primary points and make it a real struggle to earn the kill more primary since they're 3-5 units of 4-5 T3 models, not to mention giving up 1-2 'free' Headhunter points. I stopped taking them because while they were usually point efficient and killed a single big scary thing or even two, they just ended up giving my opponents too many VP over the course of a game. Playing mono Guard in ITC I find to be a struggle for that reason, but running Scions just seem to amplify it. So many easy kill points for the enemy...
I ditched Scions pretty quickly in ITC even before the deep strike changes. They struggle even more since the spring FAQ. I would never say do not take them if you enjoy what they offer but from a competitive ITC standpoint I would avoid them.
MacPhail wrote: Minimum dudes, maximum plasma, so the small squad you describe. Anything bigger can be hard to squeeze into the drop zone. They don't have much staying power at that size, so a strong counterpunch on Turn 2 is most of what you hope for.
I was planning on building 3 bare-bones troops squads, but then doing 2 command squads of 4 plasma each for minimum footprint and maximum plasma output. That way a Prime and 8 plasmaguns could drop in one place and get Take Aim for all guns.
Is that worse than spreading the plasma out to the normal scion squads?
I thought you needed 2 primes to run two command squads. I think one of the FAQ's or Chapter Approved stated you can only bring a command squad for every HQ option you bring, or something along those lines. It was meant to prevent command squad spam.
MacPhail wrote: Minimum dudes, maximum plasma, so the small squad you describe. Anything bigger can be hard to squeeze into the drop zone. They don't have much staying power at that size, so a strong counterpunch on Turn 2 is most of what you hope for.
I was planning on building 3 bare-bones troops squads, but then doing 2 command squads of 4 plasma each for minimum footprint and maximum plasma output. That way a Prime and 8 plasmaguns could drop in one place and get Take Aim for all guns.
Is that worse than spreading the plasma out to the normal scion squads?
I thought you needed 2 primes to run two command squads. I think one of the FAQ's or Chapter Approved stated you can only bring a command squad for every HQ option you bring, or something along those lines. It was meant to prevent command squad spam.
You do need 2 primes to run 2 command squads.
I was simply thinking that one of the Primes (with the Warlord trait/relic) will deploy as normal, while the other will deep strike along with the two command squads to give both of them Take Aim orders.
Valkyrie wrote: So I've just bought a couple of replacement turrets for my Russes, as the Ryza ones look much better than the plastic version, and now I have a few spare turrets lying around I'm considering converting them and trying out the Russ weapons I've barely used before, are these actually any good though?
Exterminator sounds a bit mediocre but with Grinding Advance, 8 Autocannon shots sounds pretty good.
Eradicator looks crap, I can't see the appeal in it.
Punisher I've been told is only good if you use it on Pask, yet he's already using a Vanquisher, can the Punisher be any good on it's own?
Additionally, looking at the Stygies Vanquisher, for 18pts more than my standard Vanquisher loadout I get +1 to hit Vehicles with the main cannon, and can re-roll misses if the Heavy Stubber hits, worth it?
Punisher is actually one of the most powerful variants especially if you put it on a tank commander or Tallarn tank commander. Give it heavy bolter sponsons, hull heavy bolter, and a storm bolter for lulz. Watch the look on your opponent's face as you use the tallarn tank order to scoot your tank commander up the board 10.999 inches and dump 49 STR 5 shots into his front line at BS 3+. Or, if your already in range with the punisher, have that TC order himself to re-roll 1's.
Don't like Tallarn's? Make it vostroyan for 30" punisher cannons instead, spend 1 CP for the vostroyan strat, move up 4.9999 inches, and have the TC order himself to reroll 1's. Now you have 40 Str 5 shots hitting on 2's, rerolling 1's, along with 3 heavy bolters and a storm bolter hitting on 3's rerolling 1's. This will mulch 21 ork boyz on average from the punisher cannon alone. See where I'm going with this?
Final price tag for one of these TC's kitted out in the examples is 213 points.
Singleton Mosby wrote: This weekend I will play a game against an opponent who's taking a lot of Eldar shennanigans with him. Now I know nothing of all of this stuff or what makes his list work, so I can use some tips on how to deal with it. I guess his goal is to kill characters and infantry so I might be good there.
His list: Farseers skyrunner x2
Warlock
3 x 10 rangers
Hemlock wraightfighter
--
Archon + Haemonculus + Succubus
3 x 5 Kabalite warriors
2x 10 and 6 Mandrakes
--
2 x Shadowseer
2 x Death Jester
Solitaire.
My list: HQ: Straken + 2 company commanders
Troops: 5 catachan infantry units with flamer or plasma
1 unit of scions in chimera
Fast: 3 Artemia Hellhounds
Elite: Sgt Harker + priest + 2x platoon commander with fist
Heavy: 2x basilisk / 2x Conqueror Russ / Colussus bombard / Heavy weapon team
And a nice Lightning strike fighter with Hellfire rockets.
I guess I just blast the **** out of his various units from a distance while moving my infantry to the front and into combat as long as my characters last. The hellhounds drive into his units pell mell for some nice explosions when they blow up. My priority target will be the Hemlock fighter but I don't know what is scary next to that one. Which units to focus on and which units are capable of dealing a lot of damage on my tanks?
Well, i am afraid your characters will die turn one or two. With 30 rangers they dont really stand a chance. Your armored fist can help you hide them though...
He was a good oponent and indeed, my characters died in droves. His own numerous characters and small units where blown to pieces when I drove two Hellhounds into his lines and both of them exploded. The first exploding Hellhound caused some 20 mortal wounds in total when it went Boom!
The second game was against Harlequins again and I completely tore his army to pieces. The third game was against hordes and hordes of deamons (170 models) and extremely tiresome, which I lost. Overall it was a great tournament. I finished 13 out of 50 players and (2nd best on painting, yay!).
Best performing unit was the Artemia Hellhound, what a wonderefull little tank it is. The Catachan infantry did good as well. My basilisks with Harker and the Lightning fighter didn't perform well because of all the -1's for shooting my enemies were able to use.
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Ecdain wrote: Thoughts on straken? I hate spending so much on an HQ but with the rule of 3 I'm stretched for company commanders and he's interesting, S7 -1 2 dmg is not weak and adding more attacks to my catachan Frontline doesn't seem bad.
For Catachan he is a must. A real combat monster (for IG standards) and he aids the squads around you immensly in combat. Not so sure if you don't play Catachan.
Honestly, that needed to change. And I'm glad it t did. You can still put out your T5, multi wound unit turn 1, use the new start for +1 cover and take cover for another +1. 0+ armour save
Honestly, that needed to change. And I'm glad it t did. You can still put out your T5, multi wound unit turn 1, use the new start for +1 cover and take cover for another +1. 0+ armour save
They probably should have just made invulnerable saves not be modifiable by anything as a blanket rule (except perhaps Stratagems and abilities that specifically name them).
necrontyrOG wrote: Still no ruling on whether Commissars and the like interact with a pure Stormtrooper army. That's frustrating.
What's your Q? I think it's pretty clear personally.
If you have a commissar(or similar units that are in the list of not messing with doctrines) in a full stormstrooper army than everything but commissar still gets extra shots on 6s(stormtrooper bonus) as it states he doesn't ever get the bonus himself but he does not stop the rest of the detachment from getting the bonus. However if we are talking about militarum tempestus than the whole detachment has to very specifically be from tempestus NOT stormtrooper(even though it's same.bonus they are technically their own army)
necrontyrOG wrote: Still no ruling on whether Commissars and the like interact with a pure Stormtrooper army. That's frustrating.
What's your Q? I think it's pretty clear personally.
If you have a commissar(or similar units that are in the list of not messing with doctrines) in a full stormstrooper army than everything but commissar still gets extra shots on 6s(stormtrooper bonus) as it states he doesn't ever get the bonus himself but he does not stop the rest of the detachment from getting the bonus. However if we are talking about militarum tempestus than the whole detachment has to very specifically be from tempestus NOT stormtrooper(even though it's same.bonus they are technically their own army)
The argument I've heard is that including a Commissar (or any non REGIMENT unit) in a Tempestus army negates the benefits of being pure Tempestus based on their specific regimental rules. I've heard it both way though, so was hoping the FAQ would clear it up.
Rules quote:
Note, however,
that the MILITARUM TEMPESTUS
units do not themselves benefit from any
Regimental Doctrine unless every unit in that
Detachment is from the Militarum Tempestus
(in which case they will gain the Storm
Troopers doctrine).
Yeah which means for tempestus you can't bring commissars and keep the doctrine, you can however include them in a stormtrooper detachment, and while the tempestus could be a part of the storm troopers detachment without messing with the other units, they themselves wouldn't benefit from it.
They seem have updated the forgeworld FAQ with one tiny question. But they failed to give the vendetta or vulture roving gunship. Someday I'm gonna use my vendetta's again.
Sikplex wrote: Just a question-
How is everyone converting their Scion Plasma gunners?
Other than the default pointing finger pose, any suggestions to add some variety?
It may be taking it further than you would want to go, but I have bought some 30k Solar Auxilia Veletaris Storm section to serve as plasma-gunners (in a all plasma Command Squad).
Of course that's going to be a Count-as, since they're actually armed with Volkite, but they look very much like plasma guns, really. :-)
So If I take a big squad of 30 conscripts, and screen my tanks with it. I use Prepared positions, and then the take cover strategem that unit of conscripts has a 3+ save on turn 1. That is pretty decent.
If I do the same to a unit of bullgryn with slab shields that unit has a 0+ save. So against a lascannon it's still a 3+. AKA the same that brute shields got you via take cover previously.
tag8833 wrote: So If I take a big squad of 30 conscripts, and screen my tanks with it. I use Prepared positions, and then the take cover strategem that unit of conscripts has a 3+ save on turn 1. That is pretty decent.
If I do the same to a unit of bullgryn with slab shields that unit has a 0+ save. So against a lascannon it's still a 3+. AKA the same that brute shields got you via take cover previously.
It's an interesting meta shift.
i dont think you can stack Prepared Positions with any other cover save
tag8833 wrote: So If I take a big squad of 30 conscripts, and screen my tanks with it. I use Prepared positions, and then the take cover strategem that unit of conscripts has a 3+ save on turn 1. That is pretty decent.
If I do the same to a unit of bullgryn with slab shields that unit has a 0+ save. So against a lascannon it's still a 3+. AKA the same that brute shields got you via take cover previously.
It's an interesting meta shift.
i dont think you can stack Prepared Positions with any other cover save
Take Cover just adds to your save. It stacks with regular cover, which is what Prepared Positions gives, I believe.
tag8833 wrote: So If I take a big squad of 30 conscripts, and screen my tanks with it. I use Prepared positions, and then the take cover strategem that unit of conscripts has a 3+ save on turn 1. That is pretty decent.
If I do the same to a unit of bullgryn with slab shields that unit has a 0+ save. So against a lascannon it's still a 3+. AKA the same that brute shields got you via take cover previously.
It's an interesting meta shift.
i dont think you can stack Prepared Positions with any other cover save
Take Cover just adds to your save. It stacks with regular cover, which is what Prepared Positions gives, I believe.
I agree. Take cover would stack with any cover save given by normal cover or the new strat, as Take Cover improves your save by 1, rather than, as the title implies, give you cover.
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Ladygolem wrote: What's the current take on Bullgryns? I know they've been nerfed, but are they still worth taking even if they're not crazy crazy good?
They are still rocking a 1+ save in cover or with the +1 save from the strat or psychic power. So... If everything goes to plan you could have them rocking a -1 armour save if you really wanted to.
Ladygolem wrote: What's the current take on Bullgryns? I know they've been nerfed, but are they still worth taking even if they're not crazy crazy good?
I think I'll keep using mine, but Celestine won't be bounding alongside turning them into big, dopey Terminators. I'll at least try them in a double-flamer Chimera with a Priest and maybe an Inquisitor to suppress Overwatch.
Was just throwing it out here so everyone could reference it directly, not saying the argument/rules interactions proposed are wrong. Though I would definitely expect some resistance, whether or not the person objecting is right or wrong.
vipoid wrote: Following the FAQ, do you think it's worth considering other Warlord traits, or is Grand Strategist still king even after the nerf?
For pure guard I think it was worth considering other WLT's even before the FAQ once batallions and brigades gave additional CP. Old Grudges helps a lot with all the deathstars out there, and draconian discipline is good for infantry armies that lack morale mehanics like cadians. Heck even the additional order one has it's uses for tank armies.
The thing is they're all more situational. There is no one size fits all anymore so you'll need to think about what your army does and which helps them the most. Which is good. Grand Strategist was way too powerful as it was written
One question
Are Tempestus Scions with plasma guns sufficient for AT duty?
Format is 1000 points so rule of 2 in effect. I was planning to run Tempestus batalion with 4 x Scion with 2 plasma guns and plasma pistol. Would it be sufficient or better add some lascannons/LRBT?
Also I was thinking about including Taurox with 2 autocannons or Salamander scout tank. They are kinda cheap (I could take 3 to 1000 pts game with ease) and autocannon is not so meh IMO against vehicles or Terminators/Primaris (D2).
Could You please help me with this? I'm thinking about nice 1000 pts mono guard with some mechanized support.
I tried running scion plasma command squads back when they were a thing and they never did a whole lot AT wise. They'd show up shave a couple wounds off a tank and then die. And against anything with hard to hit you're rerolling 1s won't save you I have discovered :(
vipoid wrote: Following the FAQ, do you think it's worth considering other Warlord traits, or is Grand Strategist still king even after the nerf?
If your CP hungry you'll still want it for the +1 CP per round most likely.
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Gnollu wrote: One question
Are Tempestus Scions with plasma guns sufficient for AT duty?
Format is 1000 points so rule of 2 in effect. I was planning to run Tempestus batalion with 4 x Scion with 2 plasma guns and plasma pistol. Would it be sufficient or better add some lascannons/LRBT?
Also I was thinking about including Taurox with 2 autocannons or Salamander scout tank. They are kinda cheap (I could take 3 to 1000 pts game with ease) and autocannon is not so meh IMO against vehicles or Terminators/Primaris (D2).
Could You please help me with this? I'm thinking about nice 1000 pts mono guard with some mechanized support.
The problem is your not coming in until turn 2 and may well not be in rapid fire range of the either.
They are nice for plunking off some extra wounds but you can't rely on them as your real AT.
Re-rolling 1's to wound for a turn with the relic is amazing against all armies. IG have probably the most high Str weapons where you are looking at 2+ or 3+ to wound all the time (making rerolling 1s very helpful).
I prefer to use Old Grudges if there is Castellan on the other side of the table. Then unveil the Relic of Lost Cadia on turn 2. Re-rolling to hit is easy to get. But re-rolling wounds is much more satisfying.
Hi thinking of starting a guard army, was looking to run a Scion unit in a catachan detachment. I understand the scions can't be ordered or benefit from catachan doctrine but also don't break it.
What I can't establish is if I take a tempestor prime as a hq choice can the prime issue orders to the scions or not?
Thanks
Abaddon303 wrote: Hi thinking of starting a guard army, was looking to run a Scion unit in a catachan detachment. I understand the scions can't be ordered or benefit from catachan doctrine but also don't break it.
What I can't establish is if I take a tempestor prime as a hq choice can the prime issue orders to the scions or not?
Thanks
Yes since the Prime and Scions share the same Regiment keyword (militarum Tempestus)
Abaddon303 wrote: Hi thinking of starting a guard army, was looking to run a Scion unit in a catachan detachment. I understand the scions can't be ordered or benefit from catachan doctrine but also don't break it.
What I can't establish is if I take a tempestor prime as a hq choice can the prime issue orders to the scions or not?
Thanks
Yes he can.
the regimental rules are a little wonky, but basically the only thing you ever "lose" is the regimental doctrine. No matter what else happens, the other rules on the data sheet, strategems, etc. all work as normal.
UncleJetMints wrote: As someone who has never play AM before and only played against one AM player, what should I be looking at if I wanted to start a AM army?
What kind of army are you thinking? Footslogging, mechanized, Super-heavy, tank company, Scions like I’m building, gunline? You’ve got lots of options.
UncleJetMints wrote: As someone who has never play AM before and only played against one AM player, what should I be looking at if I wanted to start a AM army?
What kind of army are you thinking? Footslogging, mechanized, Super-heavy, tank company, Scions like I’m building, gunline? You’ve got lots of options.
AH! Decisions! I suppose some mix of mechanized and tanks,
UncleJetMints wrote: As someone who has never play AM before and only played against one AM player, what should I be looking at if I wanted to start a AM army?
What kind of army are you thinking? Footslogging, mechanized, Super-heavy, tank company, Scions like I’m building, gunline? You’ve got lots of options.
AH! Decisions! I suppose some mix of mechanized and tanks,
You should check out Cadian Shock's blog or maybe Mordian Glory on Youtube. Those guys really do a fantastic job of helping out new and prospective guard commanders.
Sorry I'm still unclear. Wouldn't the Scion and prime's regiment be catachan? I wanted them to be in the catachan detachment but still be able to interact with each other. I understand they won't get catachan doctrine
What’s the consensus on the Shadowsword now that Tallarn beta striking is dead? Is it still worth taking and if yes, do we still run it as Tallarn and Ambush turn 2?
AH! Decisions! I suppose some mix of mechanized and tanks,
1) Learn to love magnets. It is much better to have interchangeable weapons. Leman Russ is a must, sentinel and hydra/wyvern with magnets are also very good
2) Buy chimeras . Either use them as transport or convert them to hellhounds (sentinel heavy flamer as inferno cannon and flamer backpacks or some barrels and voila) or even to salamander scout tanks (convert turret to use autocannon, get rid of lasgun array and voila) or even better magnetize everything . It is not as hard as it looks but still not as easy (yesterday I managed to seriously cripple my sentinel with plastic cement :/, now I need to paint it and add some camo netting with tree branches to cover all the wholes after scrubbing down melted plastic...).
3) You will lose against competitive army. Vehicles are not in the very good spot right now... With everything wounding on 6 tanks can still be destroyed by mass lasgun fire.
4) Tanks are cool and very fun to paint. Painting camo on vehicles oh boy, multiple techniques, multiple patterns. You will never get bored while painting multiple vehicles
5) Still you will need to paint around 54 basic guardsmen, 6 sargs, 3 company commanders as bare minimum in 2000 pts games.
Guardsmanwaffle wrote: What’s the consensus on the Shadowsword now that Tallarn beta striking is dead? Is it still worth taking and if yes, do we still run it as Tallarn and Ambush turn 2?
Since being able to kill a Knight is a requirement for a competitive list I would avoid taking a Shadowsword now. Having 20% of your army either locked out of Turn 1 shooting or dead of your opponent goes first is pretty painful.
Even as someone who was running Tallarn Shadowsword as the foundation of Guard lists since the Codex came out, their time has passed.
AH! Decisions! I suppose some mix of mechanized and tanks,
1) Learn to love magnets. It is much better to have interchangeable weapons. Leman Russ is a must, sentinel and hydra/wyvern with magnets are also very good
2) Buy chimeras . Either use them as transport or convert them to hellhounds (sentinel heavy flamer as inferno cannon and flamer backpacks or some barrels and voila) or even to salamander scout tanks (convert turret to use autocannon, get rid of lasgun array and voila) or even better magnetize everything . It is not as hard as it looks but still not as easy (yesterday I managed to seriously cripple my sentinel with plastic cement :/, now I need to paint it and add some camo netting with tree branches to cover all the wholes after scrubbing down melted plastic...).
3) You will lose against competitive army. Vehicles are not in the very good spot right now... With everything wounding on 6 tanks can still be destroyed by mass lasgun fire.
4) Tanks are cool and very fun to paint. Painting camo on vehicles oh boy, multiple techniques, multiple patterns. You will never get bored while painting multiple vehicles
5) Still you will need to paint around 54 basic guardsmen, 6 sargs, 3 company commanders as bare minimum in 2000 pts games.
Thanks for the advice. I don't really play competitive games so that isn't an issue, but I guess I will need to learn camo painting techniques now lol.
yup. but maybe without dozer blade nor track guards. also if you rake different regiment than tallarn your vehicles will be mostly static bunkers because of -1 to hit after moving
Honestly chimera are not worth their points, you're almost always better off taking more bodies. With just 3 basic squads you'l always find yourself losing on objectives.
If he could find one HQ more he could put leman russes into spearhead and have objective secured leman russes. And another CP.
Ways to get points: Drop vox casters, meltas to plasma gun(cheaper, better), no gear for company commander, tank commander multi melta to cheaper and better weapon and trim gear on vehicles. All those track guards, hunter killers etc adds up. Boys before toys is IG mantra anyway
That would be either BA slam CPT allies or IK allies
The best we can muster is catachan executioners clustered around harker and its probably not that strong by comparison
Alternatively dont kill the knight i intend to just out horde the knights at my next tourney got my list to 39 units and 260W the knights dont have the firepower
U02dah4 wrote: That would be either BA slam CPT allies or IK allies
The best we can muster is catachan executioners clustered around harker and its probably not that strong by comparison
Alternatively dont kill the knight i intend to just out horde the knights at my next tourney got my list to 39 units and 260W the knights dont have the firepower
Thanks yeah that's kinda what I thought regarding allies, hmm...
It's too bad, I really prefer mono faction lists, and like the aesthetic of baneblades so much more than knights for some reason. Still not gonna take a Knight, but I need something to take down this one friends renegade in particular
I've got 3 LRs, guess I can pick up some executioner turrets. Gonna kit bash a slam cap, a few PF commanders and hide em in hordes. Maybe max out psykers and astropaths too, for lots of buffs
U02dah4 wrote: That would be either BA slam CPT allies or IK allies
The best we can muster is catachan executioners clustered around harker and its probably not that strong by comparison
Alternatively dont kill the knight i intend to just out horde the knights at my next tourney got my list to 39 units and 260W the knights dont have the firepower
What format are you playing? If ITC Champions, all he needs to do is consistently kill more units than you do while holding even on the board objectives. That's pretty much how my mono-guard lists lose in general during ITC matches. There just aren't enough enemy units on the board for me to stay even on the 'killed more' primary, then he just needs to keep me off of a single objective on my side of the board for one turn to pull ahead. Going with a ton of infantry also made it trivial for my opponent to max reaper and DBTC (DBTC is gone now, but the new version is even easier to get since it involves killing just two units/turn instead of 3)
U02dah4 wrote: That would be either BA slam CPT allies or IK allies
The best we can muster is catachan executioners clustered around harker and its probably not that strong by comparison
Alternatively dont kill the knight i intend to just out horde the knights at my next tourney got my list to 39 units and 260W the knights dont have the firepower
Thanks yeah that's kinda what I thought regarding allies, hmm...
It's too bad, I really prefer mono faction lists, and like the aesthetic of baneblades so much more than knights for some reason. Still not gonna take a Knight, but I need something to take down this one friends renegade in particular
I've got 3 LRs, guess I can pick up some executioner turrets. Gonna kit bash a slam cap, a few PF commanders and hide em in hordes. Maybe max out psykers and astropaths too, for lots of buffs
Executioners won't do any more to a Knight than Battlecannons will. Same # of shots, the better AP doesn't matter because of 5++ (more likely a 3++ or 4++), and same average damage.
Fighting a renegade knight is significantly easier, but you need to go pretty much full artillery and Cadian. Try to get a scratch wound in with mortars or lasguns, then Overlapping Fields of Fire + the Cadian Relic to unleash hell on the Knight. At least 3 basilisks, 2 manticores, and 2 leman russes to pull this off, but you should be able to bring it down.
Killing a 3++ Knight in a single turn as Guard is pretty much mathematically impossible as far as I can tell without doing something silly like going 100% armor.
U02dah4 wrote: That would be either BA slam CPT allies or IK allies
The best we can muster is catachan executioners clustered around harker and its probably not that strong by comparison
Alternatively dont kill the knight i intend to just out horde the knights at my next tourney got my list to 39 units and 260W the knights dont have the firepower
What format are you playing? If ITC Champions, all he needs to do is consistently kill more units than you do while holding even on the board objectives. That's pretty much how my mono-guard lists lose in general during ITC matches. There just aren't enough enemy units on the board for me to stay even on the 'killed more' primary, then he just needs to keep me off of a single objective on my side of the board for one turn to pull ahead. Going with a ton of infantry also made it trivial for my opponent to max reaper and DBTC (DBTC is gone now, but the new version is even easier to get since it involves killing just two units/turn instead of 3)
U02dah4 wrote: That would be either BA slam CPT allies or IK allies
The best we can muster is catachan executioners clustered around harker and its probably not that strong by comparison
Alternatively dont kill the knight i intend to just out horde the knights at my next tourney got my list to 39 units and 260W the knights dont have the firepower
Thanks yeah that's kinda what I thought regarding allies, hmm...
It's too bad, I really prefer mono faction lists, and like the aesthetic of baneblades so much more than knights for some reason. Still not gonna take a Knight, but I need something to take down this one friends renegade in particular
I've got 3 LRs, guess I can pick up some executioner turrets. Gonna kit bash a slam cap, a few PF commanders and hide em in hordes. Maybe max out psykers and astropaths too, for lots of buffs
Executioners won't do any more to a Knight than Battlecannons will. Same # of shots, the better AP doesn't matter because of 5++ (more likely a 3++ or 4++), and same average damage.
Fighting a renegade knight is significantly easier, but you need to go pretty much full artillery and Cadian. Try to get a scratch wound in with mortars or lasguns, then Overlapping Fields of Fire + the Cadian Relic to unleash hell on the Knight. At least 3 basilisks, 2 manticores, and 2 leman russes to pull this off, but you should be able to bring it down.
Killing a 3++ Knight in a single turn as Guard is pretty much mathematically impossible as far as I can tell without doing something silly like going 100% armor.
Take Bullgryns. Go second and use the strategem to buff armor saves. Then Take Cover! strat. Bring a psyker for the armor buff power, and take a priest. Knights lose their invul in melee, and not a single screening unit in their army would be able to stand up to 9 Bullgryns (and 3 Bullgryn characters just for giggles). The main problem with this idea is the slow movement speed, although that can also be a plus if you're just trying to make the enemy waste shots into your Bullgryns. That's about 27 wounds walking up the board with essentially 2++ or 3++ saves, and if you don't like math or plan on failing a psychic phase, you could always stick a brute shield in there for a steady 4++. It's going to take at least a full turn of enemy shooting devoted to killing these guys...and if you brought 10 crusaders, then they're already busy shooting at their 3+ saves because the crusaders moved up twice in a turn due to Acts of Faith.
It's a little point heavy, but as far as making enemies pick targets to shoot at, it's a good setup. Just have some Basilisks (or other Line of Sight ignoring thing) parked in the back away from everything else (with a screen) and you should be able to support the Bullgryns as they go up.
U02dah4 wrote: That would be either BA slam CPT allies or IK allies
The best we can muster is catachan executioners clustered around harker and its probably not that strong by comparison
Alternatively dont kill the knight i intend to just out horde the knights at my next tourney got my list to 39 units and 260W the knights dont have the firepower
What format are you playing? If ITC Champions, all he needs to do is consistently kill more units than you do while holding even on the board objectives. That's pretty much how my mono-guard lists lose in general during ITC matches. There just aren't enough enemy units on the board for me to stay even on the 'killed more' primary, then he just needs to keep me off of a single objective on my side of the board for one turn to pull ahead. Going with a ton of infantry also made it trivial for my opponent to max reaper and DBTC (DBTC is gone now, but the new version is even easier to get since it involves killing just two units/turn instead of 3)
U02dah4 wrote: That would be either BA slam CPT allies or IK allies
The best we can muster is catachan executioners clustered around harker and its probably not that strong by comparison
Alternatively dont kill the knight i intend to just out horde the knights at my next tourney got my list to 39 units and 260W the knights dont have the firepower
Thanks yeah that's kinda what I thought regarding allies, hmm...
It's too bad, I really prefer mono faction lists, and like the aesthetic of baneblades so much more than knights for some reason. Still not gonna take a Knight, but I need something to take down this one friends renegade in particular
I've got 3 LRs, guess I can pick up some executioner turrets. Gonna kit bash a slam cap, a few PF commanders and hide em in hordes. Maybe max out psykers and astropaths too, for lots of buffs
Executioners won't do any more to a Knight than Battlecannons will. Same # of shots, the better AP doesn't matter because of 5++ (more likely a 3++ or 4++), and same average damage.
Fighting a renegade knight is significantly easier, but you need to go pretty much full artillery and Cadian. Try to get a scratch wound in with mortars or lasguns, then Overlapping Fields of Fire + the Cadian Relic to unleash hell on the Knight. At least 3 basilisks, 2 manticores, and 2 leman russes to pull this off, but you should be able to bring it down.
Killing a 3++ Knight in a single turn as Guard is pretty much mathematically impossible as far as I can tell without doing something silly like going 100% armor.
Take Bullgryns. Go second and use the strategem to buff armor saves. Then Take Cover! strat. Bring a psyker for the armor buff power, and take a priest. Knights lose their invul in melee, and not a single screening unit in their army would be able to stand up to 9 Bullgryns (and 3 Bullgryn characters just for giggles). The main problem with this idea is the slow movement speed, although that can also be a plus if you're just trying to make the enemy waste shots into your Bullgryns. That's about 27 wounds walking up the board with essentially 2++ or 3++ saves, and if you don't like math or plan on failing a psychic phase, you could always stick a brute shield in there for a steady 4++. It's going to take at least a full turn of enemy shooting devoted to killing these guys...and if you brought 10 crusaders, then they're already busy shooting at their 3+ saves because the crusaders moved up twice in a turn due to Acts of Faith.
It's a little point heavy, but as far as making enemies pick targets to shoot at, it's a good setup. Just have some Basilisks (or other Line of Sight ignoring thing) parked in the back away from everything else (with a screen) and you should be able to support the Bullgryns as they go up.
One, 9 Bullgryn with 5 attacks each will fail to even bracket a Knight with average rolls. Two, 6" movement vs. 12" movement. If your opponent lets the Bullgryns make contact, he messed up. Far more likely is that he will just kite the Bullgryn while shooting up your backline, throwing a Guard squad in front of the Bullgryn every turn as a speed bump. A 9 Bullgryn deathstar would be pretty easy to just ignore for most of the game. Three, see one and realize that after you've done your 10 damage, he will kill one in return using happy feet, then just fall back 12" and continue shooting the things you actually care about.
U02dah4 wrote: That would be either BA slam CPT allies or IK allies
The best we can muster is catachan executioners clustered around harker and its probably not that strong by comparison
Alternatively dont kill the knight i intend to just out horde the knights at my next tourney got my list to 39 units and 260W the knights dont have the firepower
What format are you playing? If ITC Champions, all he needs to do is consistently kill more units than you do while holding even on the board objectives. That's pretty much how my mono-guard lists lose in general during ITC matches. There just aren't enough enemy units on the board for me to stay even on the 'killed more' primary, then he just needs to keep me off of a single objective on my side of the board for one turn to pull ahead. Going with a ton of infantry also made it trivial for my opponent to max reaper and DBTC (DBTC is gone now, but the new version is even easier to get since it involves killing just two units/turn instead of 3)
U02dah4 wrote: That would be either BA slam CPT allies or IK allies
The best we can muster is catachan executioners clustered around harker and its probably not that strong by comparison
Alternatively dont kill the knight i intend to just out horde the knights at my next tourney got my list to 39 units and 260W the knights dont have the firepower
Thanks yeah that's kinda what I thought regarding allies, hmm...
It's too bad, I really prefer mono faction lists, and like the aesthetic of baneblades so much more than knights for some reason. Still not gonna take a Knight, but I need something to take down this one friends renegade in particular
I've got 3 LRs, guess I can pick up some executioner turrets. Gonna kit bash a slam cap, a few PF commanders and hide em in hordes. Maybe max out psykers and astropaths too, for lots of buffs
Executioners won't do any more to a Knight than Battlecannons will. Same # of shots, the better AP doesn't matter because of 5++ (more likely a 3++ or 4++), and same average damage.
Fighting a renegade knight is significantly easier, but you need to go pretty much full artillery and Cadian. Try to get a scratch wound in with mortars or lasguns, then Overlapping Fields of Fire + the Cadian Relic to unleash hell on the Knight. At least 3 basilisks, 2 manticores, and 2 leman russes to pull this off, but you should be able to bring it down.
Killing a 3++ Knight in a single turn as Guard is pretty much mathematically impossible as far as I can tell without doing something silly like going 100% armor.
Take Bullgryns. Go second and use the strategem to buff armor saves. Then Take Cover! strat. Bring a psyker for the armor buff power, and take a priest. Knights lose their invul in melee, and not a single screening unit in their army would be able to stand up to 9 Bullgryns (and 3 Bullgryn characters just for giggles). The main problem with this idea is the slow movement speed, although that can also be a plus if you're just trying to make the enemy waste shots into your Bullgryns. That's about 27 wounds walking up the board with essentially 2++ or 3++ saves, and if you don't like math or plan on failing a psychic phase, you could always stick a brute shield in there for a steady 4++. It's going to take at least a full turn of enemy shooting devoted to killing these guys...and if you brought 10 crusaders, then they're already busy shooting at their 3+ saves because the crusaders moved up twice in a turn due to Acts of Faith.
It's a little point heavy, but as far as making enemies pick targets to shoot at, it's a good setup. Just have some Basilisks (or other Line of Sight ignoring thing) parked in the back away from everything else (with a screen) and you should be able to support the Bullgryns as they go up.
One, 9 Bullgryn with 5 attacks each will fail to even bracket a Knight with average rolls. Two, 6" movement vs. 12" movement. If your opponent lets the Bullgryns make contact, he messed up. Far more likely is that he will just kite the Bullgryn while shooting up your backline, throwing a Guard squad in front of the Bullgryn every turn as a speed bump. A 9 Bullgryn deathstar would be pretty easy to just ignore for most of the game. Three, see one and realize that after you've done your 10 damage, he will kill one in return using happy feet, then just fall back 12" and continue shooting the things you actually care about.
That all depends on how you score points. In ITC, Bullgryns don't give up easy kill points, and in regular games they are a unit that holds objectives like no other. A squad of 9 is big enough to limit movement options for a Knight, since they will get into base-to-base contact with them if they try to pass (granted that you have supporting elements like Crusaders or Sentinels backing them up). Don't forget the fact that Bullgryns get grenades, and they can use the strategy that lets all 9 of them throw grenades. They can wipe out multiple screening units a turn very easily. I'm not saying they are a perfect match-up to destroy Knights - I'm saying they are a perfect option to force Knights into losing the game.
Spartan089 wrote: Honestly chimera are not worth their points, you're almost always better off taking more bodies. With just 3 basic squads you'l always find yourself losing on objectives.
With the new strategem for going second, you should take another look at Chimeras. They can get a 2+ save, and if you use Armageddon, you can hop out with a commander after the Alpha Strike and start going to town on whatever moved up the board. Armageddon is now an amazing beta-strike list - especially since their vehicles can ignore the AP of Autocannons and their equivalents on top of the extra save. Not saying they are top tier yet, but it would definitely be a neat trick against most opponents.
Went to a tournament yesterday with my guard list and two out of 3 matches were against lists where most of their army was a -1 to hit (Necron tomb blade heavy list and a all bike custode list with the dude with the banner). What can we do against this stuff? I have a single hydra that I managed to forget to take with me so I back filled with mortar teams but still that would have just died first and I went second all three matches seizing on only one.
Answer A: Custodes is a tough match for pure guard volume of models/firepower is probably the best answer if your cadian or catachan with harker your still hitting 40% of the time. big vehicles are a red herring now everyone is primed with anti tank for the knights so as you say that would get shot off first 12 infantry squads with a lascannon is a little bit harder
Answer b: look to your Allies SMDAGK AdM and IK are all 3+ BS so the -1 has less effect BA will get in close enough to ignore the -1.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TankCmdr wrote: What about the Cyclops? Keep it screened or behind cover, punch through enemy screens with another unit, then send it in?
Cyclops is fun in a catachan list and excellent anti flyer probably our best unit for it but it suffers from being unreliable. The sneaking thing works but with random range and number of shots impact can be variable and it can also hit you
Ah, I forgot to mention I had a BA Smash Captain detachment with 2 captains and 3 units of scouts. In the first game they dropped in to kill a baneblade variant (forget which one) and my winged you-can't-over-watch-me captain failed a 3d6 charge with a command point reroll :( and the second captain died to over watch because the first one couldn't get it :( Second game the winged captian got in and killed 4 out of 6 necron destroyers (forgot to swing a second time) and then they all got back up and the other captain failed his charge with a reroll....
I also ran a Shadowsword without sponsons. In the end the winner of tournament by a long shot was the knight player with a guard battery....he pretty much tabled every opponent.
I'm not fond of the shadowsword just because if you go down that route an IK is just more survivable.
I think it sounds like the problem was you geared yourself up to take down a few large targets (knights) and then didn't face knights. Thats the problem with taking an anti-meta list over a TAC.
Colonel Cross wrote: Is anybody else pissed that our commander option for Kill Team is going to be a lousy Commissar? So lame :(
Lol, well I would hope that there are other options too.
I mean, Imperials have a total of 4 new commanders according to that news leak. And a commissar is at least pretty fluffy.
Chaos have to resort to being commanded by... nobody at all.
Except, in photos from, I believe, Warhammer World, we see Box art from the Commander’s booth. This includes a Tempestor Prime for sure. There will be what, 40 Commanders, right? That’s a good amount to go around.
Colonel Cross wrote: Is anybody else pissed that our commander option for Kill Team is going to be a lousy Commissar? So lame :(
Lol, well I would hope that there are other options too.
I mean, Imperials have a total of 4 new commanders according to that news leak. And a commissar is at least pretty fluffy.
Chaos have to resort to being commanded by... nobody at all.
I don't quite see how commissars are fluffy for leading a squad of soldiers? Maybe hunting down a lone heretic guardsman or something? But if you could enlighten me, maybe I wouldn't be so annoyed.
Colonel Cross wrote: Is anybody else pissed that our commander option for Kill Team is going to be a lousy Commissar? So lame :(
Lol, well I would hope that there are other options too.
I mean, Imperials have a total of 4 new commanders according to that news leak. And a commissar is at least pretty fluffy.
Chaos have to resort to being commanded by... nobody at all.
I don't quite see how commissars are fluffy for leading a squad of soldiers? Maybe hunting down a lone heretic guardsman or something? But if you could enlighten me, maybe I wouldn't be so annoyed.
They aren't. They never were until they started shoveling them at us in formations and Start Collecting sets. Gaunt was a rarity, a special case in all the lore previous--now it seems every Commissar is a Gaunt.
That said, we know at the very least the Tempestor Prime is one of our options. I'm guessing that the Guard will get the Commissar, Platoon Commander, and maybe the Primaris Psyker or Astropath.
Anyone telling you exactly how many of a thing each faction has access to is likely making it up. We've had nothing showing the numbers for specific factions. We just know there's 41 Commander choices and that includes "Psykers, Lieutenants, and Champions".
Colonel Cross wrote: Is anybody else pissed that our commander option for Kill Team is going to be a lousy Commissar? So lame :(
Lol, well I would hope that there are other options too.
I mean, Imperials have a total of 4 new commanders according to that news leak. And a commissar is at least pretty fluffy.
Chaos have to resort to being commanded by... nobody at all.
I don't quite see how commissars are fluffy for leading a squad of soldiers? Maybe hunting down a lone heretic guardsman or something? But if you could enlighten me, maybe I wouldn't be so annoyed.
I mean, if you don't know that Commissars are iconic command units for the Imperial Guard, I'm not sure you're on the right forum lol.
I mean, if you don't know that Commissars are iconic command units for the Imperial Guard, I'm not sure you're on the right forum lol.
They're not "iconic command units" to anyone except those who don't actually know the Guard. There's one iconic Commissar-Commander and his name is Ibram Gaunt. He was notable for him being an exception, not the rule.
Commissars are regimental advisors. They're morale officers, not battlefield commanders.
Cyclops is fun in a catachan list and excellent anti flyer probably our best unit for it but it suffers from being unreliable. The sneaking thing works but with random range and number of shots impact can be variable and it can also hit you
I might proxy one and give it a try for fun.
It's really sounding like our best anti-armor options are all allies, which really is disheartening, a Leman Russ was one of the very first models I picked up way back in 3rd Ed when I was a kid. Guess it'll keep looking cool on my shelf, oh well.
Now I'm just thinking of how best to keep a huge horde of infantry alive: conscript+astropath screen? Bullgryns w/bruteshields+Take Cover? Couple big squads of crusaders?
necron99 wrote: Went to a tournament yesterday with my guard list and two out of 3 matches were against lists where most of their army was a -1 to hit (Necron tomb blade heavy list and a all bike custode list with the dude with the banner). What can we do against this stuff? I have a single hydra that I managed to forget to take with me so I back filled with mortar teams but still that would have just died first and I went second all three matches seizing on only one.
Look up Mitch Pelham's hellhound spam list. I think it's titled, "what's a hit modifier?"
I mean, if you don't know that Commissars are iconic command units for the Imperial Guard, I'm not sure you're on the right forum lol.
They're not "iconic command units" to anyone except those who don't actually know the Guard. There's one iconic Commissar-Commander and his name is Ibram Gaunt. He was notable for him being an exception, not the rule.
Commissars are regimental advisors. They're morale officers, not battlefield commanders.
Exactly, I'm not sure Niiru should be calling out my knowledge of the fluff after collecting guard and reading their books for over 20 years ...
RogueApiary wrote:Look up Mitch Pelham's hellhound spam list. I think it's titled, "what's a hit modifier?"
Unfortunately, Ro3 killed that list
Edit: unless you ran artemia pattern and regular hellhounds, I suppose
You can still get 9 artemia. His list I think originally had 13, so it's not a massive difference in list concept. As you said in your edit, just replace four of them with normal hellhounds.
Cyclops is fun in a catachan list and excellent anti flyer probably our best unit for it but it suffers from being unreliable. The sneaking thing works but with random range and number of shots impact can be variable and it can also hit you
I might proxy one and give it a try for fun.
It's really sounding like our best anti-armor options are all allies, which really is disheartening, a Leman Russ was one of the very first models I picked up way back in 3rd Ed when I was a kid. Guess it'll keep looking cool on my shelf, oh well.
Now I'm just thinking of how best to keep a huge horde of infantry alive: conscript+astropath screen? Bullgryns w/bruteshields+Take Cover? Couple big squads of crusaders?
You keep a huge horde of infantry alive by having a huge horde of infantry or having something that makes the opponent think twice on closing the distance to use anti horde weapons. There's not really any way to buff them across the board aside from the new prepared positions. For pure IG, esentially give up on armor and take a large amount of guardsmen and Stormtroopers.
Bullgryns seem like a good idea for pure infantry, but with no vehicles to draw the heat they're going to draw hellish amounts of anti tank fire and I think they'll drop quickly even with all the save buffs. You'd need to hide them which will leave them out of position potentially.
If it were me, I'd say Stormtroopers are key for a pure infantry list because they give you a counter punch across the board to take objectives and threaten the enemy backline, even with all the nerfs to deepstriking. Their big bonus would be the opponent has to hold things back to prepare for roughly 50 Stormtroopers dropping in with 27 plasma gun shots rerolling 1's and most of them generating extra hits on 6's. If they press the attack to smash your main line they leave themselves open to the drop, if they hang back they are then in a standoff with a 100 strong guard gunline being screened by 50 Stormtroopers. The other point to Stormtroopers is that with pure infantry you quickly hit a point where theres so much in your own lines you can't deploy comfortably and it takes forever to move.
So take something like 10-12 infantry squads rocking plasma/Lascannon, mortar teams, and a big platoon of 40-50 Stormtroopers armed to the teeth with plasma hitting across the board. This is a rough idea I hammered out how I'd play it with Valhallans. Cadians or Catachans may be the better choice for some obvious reasons, but Valhallans add a lot of insurance for morale shock and melee, two things a pure infantry list traditionally worry about. With Cadians, you could drop Yarrick, instead relying on the relic of cadia and other abilities, and then dump your extra points into more infantry or instead getting even more Stormtroopers. Theyd be my choice for pure competitive because their lascannons will hit like a train, but they'd fold to melee fast and would need some sort of help like bullgryns. For Catachans, you'd drop commissars entirely and spam as many officers with powerfists as possible as well as using Harker, straken, and possibly Marbo. They'd be strong in melee, but I worry they lack much in the shooting field, since they don't have Cadias insane buffs and lack Valhallans ability to weather fire and keep their weapons online longer.
All of the lists have a major issue hitting planes, especially Eldar. I guess there you'd just try to kill his ground element and force a tabling. That or play the objectives.
Spoiler:
1st Batallion-Valhallan
Company commander:mk 45, power sword
Company commander:WLT Old Grudges, Laurels of Command, Boltgun
X5 infantry squad: plasma/lascannon
X2 Ministorum Priest: power maul
X2 Astropath: pyschic Maelstrom (more likely to go off than smite and can target something aside from closest unit, plus ignore cover)
X3 Mortar HWS
2nd Batallion - Valhallan
Yarrick
Company Commander: shotgun
X5 infantry squad: plasma/Lascannon
3rd Batallion - Stormtroopers
X3 Tempestus Primes: Command Rod
X3 squads: plasma pistol, x4 plasma, X5 riflemen
X3 command squads: x4 plasma
Subtle, it is not. It'd be a hell of a rude awakening to the knight+CP battery soup meta list at the very least. That much plasma will get through at least one knight and let's the lascannons stay online longer. Plus the large amount of infantry allows you to deal with screens turn 1. He definitely won't be beating you when it comes to objectives.
I mean, if you don't know that Commissars are iconic command units for the Imperial Guard, I'm not sure you're on the right forum lol.
They're not "iconic command units" to anyone except those who don't actually know the Guard. There's one iconic Commissar-Commander and his name is Ibram Gaunt. He was notable for him being an exception, not the rule.
Commissars are regimental advisors. They're morale officers, not battlefield commanders.
Exactly, I'm not sure Niiru should be calling out my knowledge of the fluff after collecting guard and reading their books for over 20 years ...
plenty of fluff has commisar's attached to, working alongside or even bossing around small groups or squads of guardsmen. They might be outside of the chain of command but they're still capable of influencing it, especially in small scale engagements.
I mean, if you don't know that Commissars are iconic command units for the Imperial Guard, I'm not sure you're on the right forum lol.
They're not "iconic command units" to anyone except those who don't actually know the Guard. There's one iconic Commissar-Commander and his name is Ibram Gaunt. He was notable for him being an exception, not the rule.
Commissars are regimental advisors. They're morale officers, not battlefield commanders.
Exactly, I'm not sure Niiru should be calling out my knowledge of the fluff after collecting guard and reading their books for over 20 years ...
plenty of fluff has commisar's attached to, working alongside or even bossing around small groups or squads of guardsmen. They might be outside of the chain of command but they're still capable of influencing it, especially in small scale engagements.
Commissars have been an iconic command option for IG since... I mean I don't even know, since before I was seriously involved in the game, 2nd edition maybe?
Actually took a minute to take a look, and found that they actually seem to have been commonly used as leaders for both guardsman squads and rough rider squads in the original rogue trader 1st edition, which is way older than 20 years.
So yeh, commissars as iconic HQ's since before 40k was even 40k. But that's fine, I won't call you out on your knowledge any more.
I never said they weren't iconic. I questioned how fluffy it was for them to be leading a squad of guardsmen. And it is barely mentioned as in, when a leader dies they take over. They're advisors and there for morale. They're not line unit commanders ...
Colonel Cross wrote: I never said they weren't iconic. I questioned how fluffy it was for them to be leading a squad of guardsmen. And it is barely mentioned as in, when a leader dies they take over. They're advisors and there for morale. They're not line unit commanders ...
.I've got a third edition rulebook that has them as an infantry squad upgrade. Seems pretty appropriate for Killteam type stuff to me.
Colonel Cross wrote: I never said they weren't iconic. I questioned how fluffy it was for them to be leading a squad of guardsmen. And it is barely mentioned as in, when a leader dies they take over. They're advisors and there for morale. They're not line unit commanders ...
Considering a bunch of novels with Guard have Commissars leading what are basically killteams? yes I would say its very fluffy. (pretty sure Cain manages to get volunteered in some of his books. I know it happens in 'Dead men walking')
U02dah4 wrote: I feel sorry for Yarick gaunt isnt the only famous commanding commissar
And Ciaphas Cain! He is well known for leading (in at least some meanings of the word) various specialist (or at least pretty special) infantry groups on irregular errands.
You keep a huge horde of infantry alive by having a huge horde of infantry or having something that makes the opponent think twice on closing the distance to use anti horde weapons. There's not really any way to buff them across the board aside from the new prepared positions. For pure IG, esentially give up on armor and take a large amount of guardsmen and Stormtroopers.
Bullgryns seem like a good idea for pure infantry, but with no vehicles to draw the heat they're going to draw hellish amounts of anti tank fire and I think they'll drop quickly even with all the save buffs. You'd need to hide them which will leave them out of position potentially.
If it were me, I'd say Stormtroopers are key for a pure infantry list because they give you a counter punch across the board to take objectives and threaten the enemy backline, even with all the nerfs to deepstriking. Their big bonus would be the opponent has to hold things back to prepare for roughly 50 Stormtroopers dropping in with 27 plasma gun shots rerolling 1's and most of them generating extra hits on 6's. If they press the attack to smash your main line they leave themselves open to the drop, if they hang back they are then in a standoff with a 100 strong guard gunline being screened by 50 Stormtroopers. The other point to Stormtroopers is that with pure infantry you quickly hit a point where theres so much in your own lines you can't deploy comfortably and it takes forever to move.
So take something like 10-12 infantry squads rocking plasma/Lascannon, mortar teams, and a big platoon of 40-50 Stormtroopers armed to the teeth with plasma hitting across the board. This is a rough idea I hammered out how I'd play it with Valhallans. Cadians or Catachans may be the better choice for some obvious reasons, but Valhallans add a lot of insurance for morale shock and melee, two things a pure infantry list traditionally worry about. With Cadians, you could drop Yarrick, instead relying on the relic of cadia and other abilities, and then dump your extra points into more infantry or instead getting even more Stormtroopers. Theyd be my choice for pure competitive because their lascannons will hit like a train, but they'd fold to melee fast and would need some sort of help like bullgryns. For Catachans, you'd drop commissars entirely and spam as many officers with powerfists as possible as well as using Harker, straken, and possibly Marbo. They'd be strong in melee, but I worry they lack much in the shooting field, since they don't have Cadias insane buffs and lack Valhallans ability to weather fire and keep their weapons online longer.
All of the lists have a major issue hitting planes, especially Eldar. I guess there you'd just try to kill his ground element and force a tabling. That or play the objectives.
Spoiler:
1st Batallion-Valhallan
Company commander:mk 45, power sword
Company commander:WLT Old Grudges, Laurels of Command, Boltgun
X5 infantry squad: plasma/lascannon
X2 Ministorum Priest: power maul
X2 Astropath: pyschic Maelstrom (more likely to go off than smite and can target something aside from closest unit, plus ignore cover)
X3 Mortar HWS
2nd Batallion - Valhallan
Yarrick
Company Commander: shotgun
X5 infantry squad: plasma/Lascannon
3rd Batallion - Stormtroopers
X3 Tempestus Primes: Command Rod
X3 squads: plasma pistol, x4 plasma, X5 riflemen
X3 command squads: x4 plasma
Subtle, it is not. It'd be a hell of a rude awakening to the knight+CP battery soup meta list at the very least. That much plasma will get through at least one knight and let's the lascannons stay online longer. Plus the large amount of infantry allows you to deal with screens turn 1. He definitely won't be beating you when it comes to objectives.
Fair enough, boys before toys is always good advice. My one concern was giving up tons of kill points due to MSU with that kind of list. Guess that can be mitigated by combining squads and dealing just as much damage as I take.
I like that list a lot. I've been thinking something similar, but not valhallan. Something like:
Cadian Battalion for backfield w/ Creed and Las/plas infantry
Catachan smash brigade for pushing upfield and punching things
Scions battalion for surgical strikes/monster hunting/obj grabbing.
When I have an exact list, I'll post it.
I've been concerned about the deep strike nerf, so was considering shelving my MT, but you make a good point, and my 25 scions have consistently served me well, even coming in on later turns. Thanks!
Any thoughts on Tallarn Salamanders versus Sentinels? Looking at a small fast armor detachment to supplement a Primaris Deathwatch loadout. I have about 500 points to play with.
Also considering Devil Dogs as swap-ins when I anticipate needing the serious tank-busters.
Kill points wise its always worth reading the tourney pack. My next two GT's used capped kill points so its not so bad if you play the objectives or table but if they are uncapped or very heavy in certain missions its certainly a factor.
Colonel Cross wrote: I never said they weren't iconic. I questioned how fluffy it was for them to be leading a squad of guardsmen. And it is barely mentioned as in, when a leader dies they take over. They're advisors and there for morale. They're not line unit commanders ...
.I've got a third edition rulebook that has them as an infantry squad upgrade. Seems pretty appropriate for Killteam type stuff to me.
Ordana wrote:
Colonel Cross wrote: I never said they weren't iconic. I questioned how fluffy it was for them to be leading a squad of guardsmen. And it is barely mentioned as in, when a leader dies they take over. They're advisors and there for morale. They're not line unit commanders ...
Considering a bunch of novels with Guard have Commissars leading what are basically killteams? yes I would say its very fluffy. (pretty sure Cain manages to get volunteered in some of his books. I know it happens in 'Dead men walking')
U02dah4 wrote:I feel sorry for Yarick gaunt isnt the only famous commanding commissar
Mellon wrote:
U02dah4 wrote: I feel sorry for Yarick gaunt isnt the only famous commanding commissar
And Ciaphas Cain! He is well known for leading (in at least some meanings of the word) various specialist (or at least pretty special) infantry groups on irregular errands.
Guys, guys, stop agreeing with me, he's been playing guard for 20+ years! Don't make the Colonel cross!
Seriously though, I've always liked commissars, I'm glad they're making a new named one. Maybe there will be some cool new stories with him in it.
Yeah with infantry guard kill points is sadly the nature of the beast. I play ITC so for me I essentially write off the "kill more" primary and accept that Reaper, the kill 2 units a turn, and something like Old School secondaries will be used against me every game.
Your goal would be to smash your opponent early on and table them for easy primary/secondary points, or alternatively against something like knights you take ground control, recon, and linebreaker and not have to worry about actually killing anything. I like your idea of the Cadian/Catachan combo, that's an interesting idea. Built correctly it could be the best of both worlds. The only annoying bit is your abilities won't overlap so Overlapping Fields of fire only affects half your infantry line for example. The infantry line' main job is to not die and knock out screening units turn 1. Everything they do after that is gravy, but they will be key for ground control and using lascannons to finish off targets the Stormtroopers couldn't.
One funny issue I ran into with the idea was that I rapidly hit a point where the Stormtroopers took up more than half my list. I wanted to take a 4th squad maxed with plasma but that makes the stormtrooper batallion 1007pts. In order to make that work I needed to make one command squad be 3 plasma and a flag, but when you're taking 55 Stormtroopers the flag may actually become useful, especially if you're dropping them in a death ball. Just an idea to keep in mind that it's theoretically possible, just in case you wanted to drop in 56 plasma shots before the regiment trait kicked in and kicks that into somewhere in the 60's
I could cut a couple psykers to load up those last two cadian squads with more Las/plasma for a stronger gunline, and I'd have fit more scions if I could, but I love stacking psychic powers on combined squads, and having lots of dispels. It's gonna take me a while to get enough infantry ready to try this, but I've got enough for a mini version now, so I'll adjust as I play test and collect what I need. Any other C&C's are more than welcome!
Having lost our capacity to make "big squad" of 20, 30, 40... guards, aren't, indeed, as said by MrMoustaffa, our little 10 men squads a drawback ? Giving up KP ?
The squad structure can be a drawback although it has pretty much always been a price of playing Guard. In ITC I find that it is usually a drawback in the first couple of rounds for scoring so you just have to learn to play around it and make sure that your games finish past the first few rounds.
TankCmdr wrote: I could cut a couple psykers to load up those last two cadian squads with more Las/plasma for a stronger gunline, and I'd have fit more scions if I could, but I love stacking psychic powers on combined squads, and having lots of dispels. It's gonna take me a while to get enough infantry ready to try this, but I've got enough for a mini version now, so I'll adjust as I play test and collect what I need. Any other C&C's are more than welcome!
I feel astropaths are going to be borderline mandatory in this style of a list and really guard in general. The new prepared positions strat, abilities like shroudpsalm for admech, and just cover in general means that the astropaths will pay for themselves very quickly. Throw in the possibility to deny pysker abilities and do mortal wounds/provide defensive buffs they are very powerful as a force multiplier. Plus if you're smart and preplan your drops, you can set the astropaths up where you can advance them into range of a critical stormtrooper target if need be.
*Quick question since I don't have my codex on me, do astropaths really have the deny cover ability work in a 6" aura for all IG units around them that target the marked enemy unit? That's what battlescribe claims but I thought you could only give ignore cover to one friendly unit per Astropath.*
Keep in mind I've not had a chance to test this list yet, I've tested elements of it independently enough to feel it has legs, but am currently still building all the Valhallans and scions I need to complete it. It's never going to take top tier events considering it gets a slow start turn 1 but I think it will do well in local events and pickup games. That's kind of an issue pure IG has in general though. We can win most games fairly well and compete in most objectives, but we need time to win and that is a rare thing for a horde shooting army to have in a timed event.
To answer Godardc's question, yes and no. Yes the squads give up way more kill points now but even with combined squads I normally hated kill points missions. Just because the main platoon was a massive blob didn't mean you didn't have tons of smaller support units capable of giving up points running around. Even in 8th if we had the old platoon ability opponents would still farm kill points off of small characters, command squads, HWS, etc. It really doesn't feel like much of a change. It would definitely cut drops and allow us a better chance at going first, but with the way morale works only Valhallans would be able to use such massive units without losing dozens of men to morale shock.
On the other hand, being able to take individual squads for troop slots means guard can spam detachments with hilarious ease. It means we're drowning in CP, and whereas before a single guard troop slot could cost a few hundred points and contain more models than the opponents entire list, now we can field a whole detachment for what most armies spend on a single squad.
This is a big deal and honestly one I feel GW screwed up on. Yes the platoon was a weird exception to the rule of army building, and yes it took a bit to understand as new players, but it was vital to balance IG's stupidly cheap units. It's what kept conscripts in line even at 3ppm, would have kept IG from being such a cheap support option for CP, and fit the flavor of the army. Keeping vets as elites and folding conscripts back into the platoon would've let us keep conscripts at 3ppm and meant there was no issue with 4ppm guardsmen either. That's because then your choice for filling a batallion is either 120pt platoons, or small 50pt five man Scion squads, which would only be useful for CP and maybe a cheeky objective grab. Heck you could possibly even make vets troops again considering they cost 150% the cost of an infantry squad for 0 benefit as a chaff/screen unit. Not only does that tone down the "loyal 32" malarky, it also reigns in IG's crazy ability to wrack up CP. TL;DR GW bring back platoons and kill the infantry squad as a stand alone unit, and thank me later. I accept payment in tonks and FW models. I absolutely promise not to abuse Valhallan 50 men combined squads with X5 plasma/Las only losing one model to morale a turn
Back on topic, playing with infantry essentially means that no matter what you do, kill points are an uphill battle. It's an inherent weakness we've always had as far as I'm aware, no different than how custodes lack cheap troops to hold objectives or how knights struggle in many matchups because all they have are super heavy vehicles and baby super heavy vehicles. It's something that is definitely an issue but as long as you play with objectives and don't solely rely on kill points you can learn to play around it. I wish kill points were done X-Wing style where you count the pts value of the unit destroyed, with half awarded for heavily damaged large units/models, but that would involve math and that's hard.
U02dah4 wrote: I would have said the opposite about astropaths in this list you make it harder to shoot one infantry squad i target the others
I wouldn't bother with defensive spells like pyschic barrier. All I would want would be ignore cover and something like smite or pyshich maelstromFor 36pts that's still a steal.
I've found defensive spells to be a mixed bag. Really, they just cause your opponent to shoot something else, so you should use them on units that they don't want to ignore. Bullgryns are the classic example, and superheavies would be, if they couldn't be shot off the board turn one much of the time anyway.
Still, if you play with combined squads, you can build a really durable unit for holding forward objectives. Of course, at that point, it's easier to just buy more infantry.
U02dah4 wrote: Killing a 3++ Knight in a single turn as Guard is pretty much mathematically impossible as far as I can tell without doing something silly like going 100% armor.
Allow me to quote my post a few pages back.
1. Win roll-off for 1st turn (by far, the most important part).
2. Unveil Relic of Lost Cadia (this step may not be necessary, if you don't need to move to target the 3++ knight).
3. Move warlord with Old Grudges & Relic of Lost Cadia within 6" of Pask w/ executioner, lascannon, and heavy bolters, Tank Commander w/ executioner, lascannon, and heavy bolters, and Shadowsword w/ twin heavy bolter sponsons.
3. Pask orders himself to Pound Them to Dust.
4. Tank Commander orders himself to Pound Them to Dust.
5. Fire Pask at 3++ knight for 5.98 unsaved wounds.
6. Use Overlapping Fields of Fire on 3++ knight.
7. Fire Tank Commaner at 3++ knight for 5.98 unsaved wounds.
8. Fire Shadowsword at 3++ knight for 18.43 unsaved wounds.
9. 3++ knight is destroyed.
10. 3++ gets back up 75% of the time and wins anyway.
With my Catachans, I've found Mental fortitude and ignore cover from an astropath invaluable on combined squads pushing forward. They also make conscripts somewhat useful when you need a big screen, and fill out a brigade nicely. Just a good cheap utility unit. But I may have more psychic than necessary in the above list...
Edit: yeah, I could drop one astro and one psyker, give those last two cadian squads Las/plas, and have 20pts left
1) fails 60+% of the time then as you have more units
2) fine but relic of cadia is a one off so you lose this against all the other knights on following turn
3) pask cannot order himself see faq special snowflake
4-8) your maths is off but but the principle is sound
Also I refer back to my statement its not possible unless you go completely anti armour which you have done.
What you have demonstrated is that its not possible unless you go completely anti armour and then you fail 60% of the time. I accept your point that I was too optimistic
Yes, it does fail 60% of the time. That's a lot less than 100%, as you indicated earlier.
The Relic of Lost Cadia is very good - and relics are chosen at the start of the battle. So don't take it if the situation doesn't call for it. it could also be saved for turn 2, if staying stationary as Cadian and Old Grudges do the job on their own.
I don't know what is limiting Pask from ordering himself, after looking at the FAQ. Are you talking about the AMFAQ or the Rule Book FAQ?
Ultimately there is only one 3++ knight. Shoot something scary enough at it to make them burn the CPs and then focus on eliminating the rest of the army. It is a war of attrition but that should play right into Guard's strengths.
The Pask ordering himself thing was in the FAQ for the Index but that was removed when the Codex was released.
Well useing your app pask deals 8.5 and thats assuming the knights taranis and a 4+ inv so your inputs wrong. I am too lazy to go through all of them but some are not right.
Pask was faqd in index imperium 2 they didn't change the datasheet it is held to still apply
As to cost well 1000 pts+ is still the majority of your army dedicated to 1 6" combo. That only works 40% of the time if you dedicated your whole army tacked on some more executioners you might get that up to 100% it still proves my point that you can't reliably do it without dedicateing your whole or almost whole army to the task.
Acheiving success 40% of the time is a majority loss.
U02dah4 wrote: Well useing your app pask deals 8.5 and thats assuming the knights taranis and a 4+ inv so your inputs wrong. I am too lazy to go through all of them but some are not right.
Pask was faqd in index imperium 2 they didn't change the datasheet it is held to still apply
As to cost well 1000 pts+ is still the majority of your army dedicated to 1 6" combo. That only works 40% of the time if you dedicated your whole army tacked on some more executioners you might get that up to 100% it still proves my point that you can't reliably do it without dedicateing your whole or almost whole army to the task.
Acheiving success 40% of the time is a majority loss.
Index Pask has been faq’d, but codex pask hasn’t been?
If they didn’t add the exception to the codex itself, and they haven’t put it in the codex faq, then that’s that. Pask can order himself.
Must be the intention, as it’s not hard to copy paste the errata if they wanted to.
Also, the latest version of the Index 2 FAQ makes no mention of Park except that he can take a hunter-killer missile. The restriction on Tank Commanders not being able to order characters was removed when the Codes came out, as it makes no mention of it. The exemption for Park to order other characters is also gone (so his data sheet did change, under his Knight Commander ability) since it isn't needed any more.
There is nothing that I can find currently in the Codes or the updated FAQs that would make Park unable to order himself.
Tank commanders and pask are able to order themselves.
The faq that was for the index was removed when the codex came out, as others have said.
There’s nothing that says a tank commander can’t choose his own russ for the purpose of orders. It’s just like other characters with their aura abilities. They have the same key words so those abilities affect them. A tank commanders order just chooses a single unit with the appropriate key words.
Postulent wrote: Also, if castellan is the kind that can get up, its shooting can be ignored, without raven buffs, its horribly inconsistent for its cost.
Also you could shoot something at it, trigger RIS, then switch to 5++ target and opponent spent 3CP that didn't much help while losing another knight. Knight army loses efficiency fast when knights starts to die. Castellan good, non-raven castellan(which btw eats now whopping 6 CP a turn for raven and 3++ with less CP available) unreliable so it's not total disaster to have it live turn longer unless you have like all tank IG army.
Oh and the wake up and shoot again will then cost 4-5 CP for 75% chance and is trivial to take down second time.
Postulent wrote: Also, if castellan is the kind that can get up, its shooting can be ignored, without raven buffs, its horribly inconsistent for its cost.
Also you could shoot something at it, trigger RIS, then switch to 5++ target and opponent spent 3CP that didn't much help while losing another knight. Knight army loses efficiency fast when knights starts to die. Castellan good, non-raven castellan(which btw eats now whopping 6 CP a turn for raven and 3++ with less CP available) unreliable so it's not total disaster to have it live turn longer unless you have like all tank IG army.
Oh and the wake up and shoot again will then cost 4-5 CP for 75% chance and is trivial to take down second time.
The counter counter play to that is to let the first unit or two fire at the Castellan and wait until they actually score a wound to trigger overlapping fields of fire, THEN turn on RIS.
In this list, would you use an astopath and a primaris psyker, two astopath, or a culexus ?
The Culexus isn't bad to counter opponents' psy powers, and can deep strike, can fight etc...
But psykers can deny and cast ! The culexus won't help against a necron or a Tau for example... What would you take ?
Or another assassin, like an Eversor in order to help my guys in assault ?
Well, a single battalion at 1500 is suboptimal, and with only one assassin, it's an auxiliary detachment, not a vanguard. Altogether, you'll only have 7cp, which will really hamper you. I'd take more troops and some astropaths or psykers
I'm looking at command squads to see if there's anything worth considering - how many special weapons can the 4 man squad take? It's a little confusing when it says one guy can do this and one guy can take that...
necron99 wrote: I'm looking at command squads to see if there's anything worth considering - how many special weapons can the 4 man squad take? It's a little confusing when it says one guy can do this and one guy can take that...
All four can take a special weapon, only one can take a heavy.
TankCmdr wrote: Well, a single battalion at 1500 is suboptimal, and with only one assassin, it's an auxiliary detachment, not a vanguard. Altogether, you'll only have 7cp, which will really hamper you. I'd take more troops and some astropaths or psykers
Yeah, I miss the good old Foc...
But you know what ? Thanks to a happy coincidence, all of my footslogging infantry are classic cadian shock troops and have a different paint scheme from my FW cadian who ride in chimera and my vehicles....
After rereading all the stratagems, doctrines etc... I decided to keep the Tallarn doctrines for the armored part, and to make my infantry Cadian.
I have 10 points lefts.
Old Grudge + Cadian infantry can give me full reroll to hit and to wound around 6' of my tank commander, not bad I guess.
I have 3 deny the witch, some useful psy powers, I can give LD9 to my little guys thanks to the prefectoria leman russ, if I really need to, and I can have only 10 drops if I want.
What do you think ? I won't go the the LGT with it, ofc, but I like it, and it is even more fluff (an infantry regiment working along an armored one).
Is anyone really finding success with Leman Russ tanks outside of command tanks? Every time I end up bringing them they end up just being a wall at best, and vastly outperformed by other alternatives such as Basilisks
Postulent wrote: Also, if castellan is the kind that can get up, its shooting can be ignored, without raven buffs, its horribly inconsistent for its cost.
Also you could shoot something at it, trigger RIS, then switch to 5++ target and opponent spent 3CP that didn't much help while losing another knight. Knight army loses efficiency fast when knights starts to die. Castellan good, non-raven castellan(which btw eats now whopping 6 CP a turn for raven and 3++ with less CP available) unreliable so it's not total disaster to have it live turn longer unless you have like all tank IG army.
Oh and the wake up and shoot again will then cost 4-5 CP for 75% chance and is trivial to take down second time.
The counter counter play to that is to let the first unit or two fire at the Castellan and wait until they actually score a wound to trigger overlapping fields of fire, THEN turn on RIS.
True, but with nothing but a 5++, overlapping fields isn't even needed to down the next knight. IG puts out so much dakka one knight minimum will go down.
Any advice on the queries below re: a TAC cadian all comers tourney list (some tanks, some troops, some psykers, some support units).
With the new CP farm CA rules, is kurovs aquila still the best way to get back a CP? (and only 1 per turn now correct no matter what?)
What are some good warlord traits for an IG commander? I was thinking master of command?
Are HWT worth it? Specifically either LCs or MLs (maybe 2-3 teams?)
Pask seems to do well in terms of firepower in a punisher with HBs sponsons but is quite short ranged?
Any advice on psychic powers? (have 2 psykers)
Useful IG stratagems?
HWTLC are quite damage efficient for there pt in cadia but die to a stiff breeze and so will probably be the first thing your opponent targets stick them in bunkers and use the cadia stratagy for +1 bs might work - Alternatively most people use mortars and hide them out of sight if your opponent cant see them they cant shoot them. However you are then no longer a cheap option
Its not a bad way to get cp back but does depend on your opponents cp pool so better as a 1cp relic once youve seen your opponents cp pool size.
Given that an order is about 15pts on a cc so just buy another and a tank commander warlord will be shot off the table quickly its always a helpfull trait but its not great. Grand strategist on the other hand wlnt help you much vs an msu horde but will really help vs that singular big knight.
Its list dependent with psychic powers bullgryns and crusaders benefit from barrier pask or a singular big vehicle the -1 to hit. If not the damage options are good. The line is strong but very situational so wont see use regularly and maelstrom doesn't need los so will work when smite cant.
TankCmdr wrote: Well, a single battalion at 1500 is suboptimal, and with only one assassin, it's an auxiliary detachment, not a vanguard. Altogether, you'll only have 7cp, which will really hamper you. I'd take more troops and some astropaths or psykers
Yeah, I miss the good old Foc...
But you know what ? Thanks to a happy coincidence, all of my footslogging infantry are classic cadian shock troops and have a different paint scheme from my FW cadian who ride in chimera and my vehicles....
After rereading all the stratagems, doctrines etc... I decided to keep the Tallarn doctrines for the armored part, and to make my infantry Cadian.
I have 10 points lefts.
Old Grudge + Cadian infantry can give me full reroll to hit and to wound around 6' of my tank commander, not bad I guess.
I have 3 deny the witch, some useful psy powers, I can give LD9 to my little guys thanks to the prefectoria leman russ, if I really need to, and I can have only 10 drops if I want.
What do you think ? I won't go the the LGT with it, ofc, but I like it, and it is even more fluff (an infantry regiment working along an armored one).
Vanquishers are statistically the worst Russ variant, with that load out on a Commander I'd give him a regular old battle Cannon. The augury array isn't necessary either.
Who's going in the chimeras? Cadian troops can't go in Tallarn transports.
And just a thought, my favorite thing about Tallarn is the ambush strat. To make the most of that, I'd consolidate all the LRs into one squad so they can out flank turn two and wreak havoc. But punishers with hb sponsons are best for that.
Or, With all the mid-range firepower you've got on those tanks, consider making them cadian and upgrade the commander to pask. Line them up with bubble wrap, don't move, then use pound them to dust and overlapping fields of fire. It should at least double the damage they do per turn. The hard part is keeping them alive, cause they will be priority number one for your opponent
Edit: for reference, the only way I've found russes worth it in 8th is with pask and one other cadian tank. Both with bc, lc and pcs like your list. Pask gives orders to himself and his buddy, shoots, hurts the target, I pop OFoF, his buddy now hits like a tank commander for 45pts less. Make them more survivable with nightshroud and a tech priest
Hey, I'm building up my Astra Militarum army and was wondering what people would recommend for expanding from 500 to 1000 points.
So far, I've got two Company Commanders, three Infantry Squads (each with Plasma Gun), a HWT that can be Heavy Bolter, Lascannon, or Autocannon (currently putting them in the Infantry Squads), another HWT that's Mortars, and a Leman Russ with Battle Cannon, Lascannon, and Heavy Bolters (running as Pask).
ronjamin1022 wrote: Hey, I'm building up my Astra Militarum army and was wondering what people would recommend for expanding from 500 to 1000 points.
So far, I've got two Company Commanders, three Infantry Squads (each with Plasma Gun), a HWT that can be Heavy Bolter, Lascannon, or Autocannon (currently putting them in the Infantry Squads), another HWT that's Mortars, and a Leman Russ with Battle Cannon, Lascannon, and Heavy Bolters (running as Pask).
So, my list wasn't bad eventually. I didn't played it very well because, eh, it was my first time with it, but it worked. I needed a bit more projection capabilities and more bodies, definitely.
So in order to go 2000 pts, I made this one. However, I am afraid I will need more AT weaponry at 2000 (even if people don't play a lot of vehicles) and this list is really less armored than my 1500pts one (it worked well at 1500).
What is the current opinion on Wyverns for ITC play? I’m looking at running 6 Basilisks, a total of 13 HWTs with Lascannons, Pask with all Plasma, an Artemia Hellhound, and 90 Infantry with 5 Mortars. Wyverns seem like they fill a gap in the list nicely but I’ve been warned against them. I wanted to field 2 in order to hit Cultists/Gaurdians/Fire Warriors camping on objectives while also being able to add some fire volume to things like Reapers and Hellblasters. The indirect fire and decent long range seems to synergize with a large screen of infantry as well as provide enough dice to damage light infantry significantly. Am I wrong to think they’re competitive?
the issue with wyverns is that they provide nothing mortars don't already do while being a damn sight more expensive. Sure wyverns got to reroll wounds but at that price point you're comparing 4d6 shots to 9d6 shots which can become reroll all misses if they're cadian and ordered or just gain rerolls 1 to hit/wound if they're other regiments. sure they're tougher and have a better svae but they're also a single model with a degrading statline as well.
The main point in their favor then seems to be the rule of 3. I’d love to just field 6 HWTs with Mortars instead of 2 Wyverns, but I’m already fielding 9 Lascannon teams. Right now in my list, the only option for Mortars are Infantry Squads or something from Forgeworld. Wyverns seem like the most efficient option.
In order to provide reroll to hit for mortars one need to invest additional 15pts per team. Wyverns are faster and much harder to kill. Assuming that bassies are also in the field, wyvern will be much less likely targeted by enemy. HWT is 6W 3T Sv5+, every two wounds You lose 1d6 attacks.
Wyvern can also benefit from catachan,cadian and tallarn doctrine, while for HWT only cadian one is useful
So HWT is very much glass cannon. As long as it is hidden it will perform better. Second they become visible or enemy has ingore LoS weapon, they are dead.
Another: mortar team is currently super cost efficient. We can anticipate its cost going up this CAIMO
Marshal_Gus wrote: The main point in their favor then seems to be the rule of 3. I’d love to just field 6 HWTs with Mortars instead of 2 Wyverns, but I’m already fielding 9 Lascannon teams. Right now in my list, the only option for Mortars are Infantry Squads or something from Forgeworld. Wyverns seem like the most efficient option.
Put those lascannons into infantry squads. In HWT they die when opponent wants them dead. In HWT only weapon worth anything is mortar as those can be put out of LOS. Very expensive weapon that needs LOS? Death sentence.
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godardc wrote: So, my list wasn't bad eventually.
I didn't played it very well because, eh, it was my first time with it, but it worked.
I needed a bit more projection capabilities and more bodies, definitely.
So in order to go 2000 pts, I made this one. However, I am afraid I will need more AT weaponry at 2000 (even if people don't play a lot of vehicles) and this list is really less armored than my 1500pts one (it worked well at 1500).
Swap veteran melta guns to plasma. Cheaper, better. And I would try to find points for scion HQ. Then put that and scions to patrol of their own to get exploding 6's and put tank commanders and russes to own spearhead for extra CP and ob sec leman russes(meltas to plasmas alone almost pays this off...)
edit: that does result in less CP actually. bat+spearhead+patrol<bat+bat. Adding another scion squad and scion HQ to turn patrol into battallion would fix that. I would consider making veterans into those(and command squad with 4xplasma if points enough)>
Resin Glazed Guardsman wrote: Is anyone really finding success with Leman Russ tanks outside of command tanks? Every time I end up bringing them they end up just being a wall at best, and vastly outperformed by other alternatives such as Basilisks
Basilisks are great and vastly out perform LRBT at killing stuff, they are the hammer that kills enemy units but at T6 you definitely need to hide them and screen them otherwise you just die. OTOH you don't have to hide LRBT at T8 although you still need to screen. Tank Orders to reroll Turret shots, Cadian rerolling ones, and overlapping fields of fire can make them a threat so that your opponent cant ignore them.
In summary Basilisks are better at being a hammer but LRBT can be the anvil.
I wouldn't say Baslisks vasly outperform the LRBT for killing stuff. Against hard targets (T8 and/or 3+ saves without invulnerable), the basilisk will outperform the LRBT pound for pound, but given the russes extra shots, it really excels against a ton of targets.
Don't get me wrong, I love my bassies. Just pray you don't see 5++ invulnerable saves.
Ordana wrote: Checking if you have enough AT is easy now a days.
Can you kill a Knight in 1 turn? If not, you need more AT.
This is my biggest challenge these days, cramming enough firepower to kill, or at least cripple, T8, 28W w/3++.
Mathwise, plasma scions seem to do it best, but now you gotta keep the rest of your army alive for a turn to pull that off.
What do we have, that can start on the table, to dish that kind of damage? An artillery parking lot seems the next best thing, maybe, but could easily take half your army or more.
Maybe a cheap brigade for boots on the ground and then a couple spearheads full of TCs, basilisks and manticores? Investing that much into armor, would a skyshield or VSG actually be worth it for once?
I don't know, what's a Knight-killing pure AM list look like? I'm gonna work on this...
Ordana wrote: Checking if you have enough AT is easy now a days.
Can you kill a Knight in 1 turn? If not, you need more AT.
This is my biggest challenge these days, cramming enough firepower to kill, or at least cripple, T8, 28W w/3++.
Mathwise, plasma scions seem to do it best, but now you gotta keep the rest of your army alive for a turn to pull that off.
What do we have, that can start on the table, to dish that kind of damage? An artillery parking lot seems the next best thing, maybe, but could easily take half your army or more.
Maybe a cheap brigade for boots on the ground and then a couple spearheads full of TCs, basilisks and manticores? Investing that much into armor, would a skyshield or VSG actually be worth it for once?
I don't know, what's a Knight-killing pure AM list look like? I'm gonna work on this...
Well - LR demolishers and manticores are going to be your top performers here. Battle cannons aren't bad ether (maybe even better because they don't have to get into close combat range)
Realistically though - without mortal wounds you are best off ignoring a 3++ knight with 28 W and killing everything else.
3 double shooting punishers does 9 wounds with +1 to hit stratagem without rerolling'1. That is only about 500 points. Question - do you have 9 punisher tanks? LOL.1 thing is for sure - you will have no trouble killing his infantry.
everything cadian
9 punishers and as many infantry with lascannons as you can fit.
Quick list I put together
9 punishers with hull heavy bolter (3 units so it's legal)
2 Batallions
4 CC 6 infantry las squads
That leaves
160 points - thats enough for HB sponsons on each tank or you can upgrade all hull mounts to lascannons or upgrade a few tanks to commanders...
Honestly this list looks disgusting now that I am thinking of it.
Rule of 3 for the CCs, sadly. I love punishers, but the 24" range will be a caveat, though if you manage to go first, and the Knight is not way back, you might pull it off
Edit: vultures could fix the range issue, officer of the fleet for rerolls, but youd lose OFoF
Ordana wrote: Checking if you have enough AT is easy now a days.
Can you kill a Knight in 1 turn? If not, you need more AT.
This is my biggest challenge these days, cramming enough firepower to kill, or at least cripple, T8, 28W w/3++.
Mathwise, plasma scions seem to do it best, but now you gotta keep the rest of your army alive for a turn to pull that off.
What do we have, that can start on the table, to dish that kind of damage? An artillery parking lot seems the next best thing, maybe, but could easily take half your army or more.
Maybe a cheap brigade for boots on the ground and then a couple spearheads full of TCs, basilisks and manticores? Investing that much into armor, would a skyshield or VSG actually be worth it for once?
I don't know, what's a Knight-killing pure AM list look like? I'm gonna work on this...
Let us know when you find it, cause I've found no guard artillery combo capable of one rounding a 3++ Castellan under 2000 points, and I've spent a lot of time on the mathhammer website.
A battalion of 3x scion ccs 3x max size scion troops with plasma pistols/4xpg in rapid fire range can one round a 5++ normal knight for 843 points. Though if your opponent let's that happen, they deserve to lose it. You can squeeze in another 27 plasma shots with another 3 max sized squads but then you can't deep strike them all because you go over 50% points.
My solution for AM is similar to my Deathwatch's: Ally in two gallants and chop the fether up to get around the 3++.
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TankCmdr wrote: Yup that's how I've been playing lol, just ignore the biggest scariest thing on the table and take enough bodies to win despite the damage it deals.
It's just a matter of pride now, I guess. I don't like things I can't find a way to kill.
Pask + 3TC should do 13-15 wounds for 846, not bad...
How are you getting 13-15 wounds? I'm getting 9 for that setup without orders/hull lc.
28 shots, around 21 hits, 10.5 wounds, 3.5 through the saves, 7 damage
With the reroll shot die order, they average 9 shots each, 36 shots, 26.75 hit, 13.37 wound, 4.5 past save, 9 damage.
4 lascannon shots aren't going to add much to that through the 3++ and certainly aren't going to get an extra 4-6 damage through.
You dont have to 1 turn a Castellan with 3++. you need to kill a normal Knight with a 4++.
If you kill of the normal knights in time the Castellan doesn't matter, it can't deal with the amount of units you have.
Kill the Castellan and the rest of the Knights can still tear you apart.
TankCmdr wrote: Rule of 3 for the CCs, sadly. I love punishers, but the 24" range will be a caveat, though if you manage to go first, and the Knight is not way back, you might pull it off
Edit: vultures could fix the range issue, officer of the fleet for rerolls, but youd lose OFoF
Oh that is with standard punisher russ which come in squadrons. I suggested maybe making a few commanders with the remaining points.
TankCmdr wrote: Yup that's how I've been playing lol, just ignore the biggest scariest thing on the table and take enough bodies to win despite the damage it deals.
It's just a matter of pride now, I guess. I don't like things I can't find a way to kill.
Pask + 3TC should do 13-15 wounds for 846, not bad...
How are you getting 13-15 wounds? I'm getting 9 for that setup without orders/hull lc.
28 shots, around 21 hits, 10.5 wounds, 3.5 through the saves, 7 damage
With the reroll shot die order, they average 9 shots each, 36 shots, 26.75 hit, 13.37 wound, 4.5 past save, 9 damage.
4 lascannon shots aren't going to add much to that through the 3++ and certainly aren't going to get an extra 4-6 damage through.
That's with rerolling one's, pound them to dust, overlapping fields of fire, and hull LCs. 8.75 BC hits --> 4.375 wounds --> 1.46 failed saves --> 2.9 damage.
LC will hit 97% of the time not moving --> .65 wounds --> .21 failed saves --> .76 damage
Total damage on average: ~3.66 per pask or tc with buffs
Xenomancers wrote: 3 double shooting punishers does 9 wounds with +1 to hit stratagem without rerolling'1. That is only about 500 points. Question - do you have 9 punisher tanks? LOL.1 thing is for sure - you will have no trouble killing his infantry.
everything cadian
9 punishers and as many infantry with lascannons as you can fit.
Quick list I put together
9 punishers with hull heavy bolter (3 units so it's legal)
2 Batallions
4 CC 6 infantry las squads
That leaves
160 points - thats enough for HB sponsons on each tank or you can upgrade all hull mounts to lascannons or upgrade a few tanks to commanders...
Honestly this list looks disgusting now that I am thinking of it.
I think you might be better off just getting more infantry squads with the 150 points.
The tricky part is getting them all in 24" range. Though, if you're willing to sacrifice Cadian reroll 1's for Vostroyan +6" that might be less of an issue. Kind of surprised nobody's tried this yet. It's not like 9 LR hulls is a significant investment when 13 FW Hellhounds made it into the competitive scene.
He can pop Smoke on all of them first turn after advancing and get them into position. Group them tight so you have to multicharged them. I like it but fast moving Melta like SOB would frack this army up.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wouldn't Pask and 9 Annihilators, with OLFoF and Old Grudges drop 30 Wounds on T8, 3++ save?
TankCmdr wrote: At ~1750pts, it had better. There's no room left for the rest of an army lol!
luckily we can still fit in a Battalion and some HWT Mortars to clear the chaff.
Cant even do that because it’s more like 1861. So I guess you just run a 129 point spearhead with mortars a CC and an Astropaths to throw -1 on Pask
Yeah, I'm a much bigger fan of the 9 punisher version of this theoretical list. Even still, that 30" range with 9 LR hulls trying to stay bunched together is at the mercy of terrain.
TankCmdr wrote: Yeah, the vostroyan punisher spam is juicy, I'd like to see how it plays.
It got me thinking, what about:
9 Vultures w/twin punisher cannons
90 Infantry
3 CCs Straken
Priest
Two battalions, one air wing,
2000 on the dot
The fact that this list is possible horrifies me, but would be hilarious to see on a table nonetheless.
Ditto. I imagine a superheavy spamming list would be difficult (like any skew list) but i think with 18 punisher gatlings even knights beginn to struggle at 360 shots .
On the other hand, any INfantry heavy list would probably go cry in a corner.
TankCmdr wrote: Yeah, the vostroyan punisher spam is juicy, I'd like to see how it plays.
It got me thinking, what about:
9 Vultures w/twin punisher cannons
90 Infantry
3 CCs Straken
Priest
Two battalions, one air wing,
2000 on the dot
The fact that this list is possible horrifies me, but would be hilarious to see on a table nonetheless.
Ditto. I imagine a superheavy spamming list would be difficult (like any skew list) but i think with 18 punisher gatlings even knights beginn to struggle at 360 shots .
On the other hand, any INfantry heavy list would probably go cry in a corner.
Agreed, the anit tank on that is lacking but "Quantity has a Quality all of it own. "
Xenomancers wrote: 3 double shooting punishers does 9 wounds with +1 to hit stratagem without rerolling'1. That is only about 500 points. Question - do you have 9 punisher tanks? LOL.1 thing is for sure - you will have no trouble killing his infantry.
everything cadian
9 punishers and as many infantry with lascannons as you can fit.
Quick list I put together
9 punishers with hull heavy bolter (3 units so it's legal)
2 Batallions
4 CC 6 infantry las squads
That leaves
160 points - thats enough for HB sponsons on each tank or you can upgrade all hull mounts to lascannons or upgrade a few tanks to commanders...
Honestly this list looks disgusting now that I am thinking of it.
I think you might be better off just getting more infantry squads with the 150 points.
The tricky part is getting them all in 24" range. Though, if you're willing to sacrifice Cadian reroll 1's for Vostroyan +6" that might be less of an issue. Kind of surprised nobody's tried this yet. It's not like 9 LR hulls is a significant investment when 13 FW Hellhounds made it into the competitive scene.
Humm - the cadian reroll 1's and +1 to hit are vital to the strategy I think. Is there anyway to increase the accuracy of vostroyan russ?
Xenomancers wrote: 3 double shooting punishers does 9 wounds with +1 to hit stratagem without rerolling'1. That is only about 500 points. Question - do you have 9 punisher tanks? LOL.1 thing is for sure - you will have no trouble killing his infantry.
everything cadian
9 punishers and as many infantry with lascannons as you can fit.
Quick list I put together
9 punishers with hull heavy bolter (3 units so it's legal)
2 Batallions
4 CC 6 infantry las squads
That leaves
160 points - thats enough for HB sponsons on each tank or you can upgrade all hull mounts to lascannons or upgrade a few tanks to commanders...
Honestly this list looks disgusting now that I am thinking of it.
I think you might be better off just getting more infantry squads with the 150 points.
The tricky part is getting them all in 24" range. Though, if you're willing to sacrifice Cadian reroll 1's for Vostroyan +6" that might be less of an issue. Kind of surprised nobody's tried this yet. It's not like 9 LR hulls is a significant investment when 13 FW Hellhounds made it into the competitive scene.
Humm - the cadian reroll 1's and +1 to hit are vital to the strategy I think. Is there anyway to increase the accuracy of vostroyan russ?
Unfirtunately, only one of them can get the +1BS for the Vostroyan unique strategem. Tank commanders can give a couple reroll 1's out.
You probably wouldn't be getting the cadian reroll 1's since the Knight player would likely stay outside of 24", forcing you to move up. Losing the cadian strategem hurts but I think two tank commander punishers + 9 regular punishers all with triple HB still one rounds the Knight. 30" range is a lot more forgiving for getting all 11 tanks in place IMO, especially if they start their Knight at their back board edge.
Cadian would definitely be the better choice vs. any chaos list as the relic would shred everything in range for a turn.
Ordana wrote: If he Knight player wants to stay outside of 24" range thats perfectly fine cause it means he is losing the game on objectives anyway.
Depends on the format, if he stays ahead on kills in ITC, it's a wash with the points you're picking up on objectives and it comes down to secondaries. If the Castellan is hanging back a couple turns it won't necessarily cost him the game. He should be able to cripple one and kill one per turn minimum just with that alone, and after three turns of that type of attrition, it'd be relatively safe to enter punisher range.
Xenomancers wrote: 3 double shooting punishers does 9 wounds with +1 to hit stratagem without rerolling'1. That is only about 500 points. Question - do you have 9 punisher tanks? LOL.1 thing is for sure - you will have no trouble killing his infantry.
everything cadian
9 punishers and as many infantry with lascannons as you can fit.
Quick list I put together
9 punishers with hull heavy bolter (3 units so it's legal)
2 Batallions
4 CC 6 infantry las squads
That leaves
160 points - thats enough for HB sponsons on each tank or you can upgrade all hull mounts to lascannons or upgrade a few tanks to commanders...
Honestly this list looks disgusting now that I am thinking of it.
I think you might be better off just getting more infantry squads with the 150 points.
The tricky part is getting them all in 24" range. Though, if you're willing to sacrifice Cadian reroll 1's for Vostroyan +6" that might be less of an issue. Kind of surprised nobody's tried this yet. It's not like 9 LR hulls is a significant investment when 13 FW Hellhounds made it into the competitive scene.
Humm - the cadian reroll 1's and +1 to hit are vital to the strategy I think. Is there anyway to increase the accuracy of vostroyan russ?
Unfirtunately, only one of them can get the +1BS for the Vostroyan unique strategem. Tank commanders can give a couple reroll 1's out.
You probably wouldn't be getting the cadian reroll 1's since the Knight player would likely stay outside of 24", forcing you to move up. Losing the cadian strategem hurts but I think two tank commander punishers + 9 regular punishers all with triple HB still one rounds the Knight. 30" range is a lot more forgiving for getting all 11 tanks in place IMO, especially if they start their Knight at their back board edge.
Cadian would definitely be the better choice vs. any chaos list as the relic would shred everything in range for a turn.
God, now I really want to try this.
Yeah to be honest blowing armies up with Gatling guns gets me really excited. I don't think I could resist the Pew Pew noises when playing this army. Sadly - I only have 3 punishers.
Xenomancers wrote: 3 double shooting punishers does 9 wounds with +1 to hit stratagem without rerolling'1. That is only about 500 points. Question - do you have 9 punisher tanks? LOL.1 thing is for sure - you will have no trouble killing his infantry.
everything cadian
9 punishers and as many infantry with lascannons as you can fit.
Quick list I put together
9 punishers with hull heavy bolter (3 units so it's legal)
2 Batallions
4 CC 6 infantry las squads
That leaves
160 points - thats enough for HB sponsons on each tank or you can upgrade all hull mounts to lascannons or upgrade a few tanks to commanders...
Honestly this list looks disgusting now that I am thinking of it.
I think you might be better off just getting more infantry squads with the 150 points.
The tricky part is getting them all in 24" range. Though, if you're willing to sacrifice Cadian reroll 1's for Vostroyan +6" that might be less of an issue. Kind of surprised nobody's tried this yet. It's not like 9 LR hulls is a significant investment when 13 FW Hellhounds made it into the competitive scene.
Humm - the cadian reroll 1's and +1 to hit are vital to the strategy I think. Is there anyway to increase the accuracy of vostroyan russ?
Unfirtunately, only one of them can get the +1BS for the Vostroyan unique strategem. Tank commanders can give a couple reroll 1's out.
You probably wouldn't be getting the cadian reroll 1's since the Knight player would likely stay outside of 24", forcing you to move up. Losing the cadian strategem hurts but I think two tank commander punishers + 9 regular punishers all with triple HB still one rounds the Knight. 30" range is a lot more forgiving for getting all 11 tanks in place IMO, especially if they start their Knight at their back board edge.
Cadian would definitely be the better choice vs. any chaos list as the relic would shred everything in range for a turn.
God, now I really want to try this.
Yeah to be honest blowing armies up with Gatling guns gets me really excited. I don't think I could resist the Pew Pew noises when playing this army. Sadly - I only have 3 punishers.
Was thinking more brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrt than pew pew, but yeah. Too bad the GW Dice app is broken on Android. Rolling 540 dice per turn sounds brutal.
Ordana wrote: If he Knight player wants to stay outside of 24" range thats perfectly fine cause it means he is losing the game on objectives anyway.
Depends on the format, if he stays ahead on kills in ITC, it's a wash with the points you're picking up on objectives and it comes down to secondaries. If the Castellan is hanging back a couple turns it won't necessarily cost him the game. He should be able to cripple one and kill one per turn minimum just with that alone, and after three turns of that type of attrition, it'd be relatively safe to enter punisher range.
not to cause a shitstorm, but that's why ITC scoring is bad for tournaments. 40k already prioritizes killing enough on its own. Don't need a dozen objectives dedicated to killing things aswell. You should have to play the board and objectives to win.
So it seems like GW really wants to sell some Ork models for the next few months with these rules previews. Mordian is looking more and more attractive for all the impending first turn charges.
jaxor1983 wrote: So it seems like GW really wants to sell some Ork models for the next few months with these rules previews. Mordian is looking more and more attractive for all the impending first turn charges.
Mordian is only going to work on the first unit since its unlikely to truly stop a charge unless they did something dumb like charge a baneblade with a truck. Perhaps you could keep your baneblade safe with defensive gunners but most of your units wouldn't be able to stop a dedicated assault unit.
If you're truly concerned with first turn charges I'd say your best bet would be something like Catachan or Valhallans. Catachans give you the attacks to fight back in assault, while Valhallans have better screens and can clean enemy units off of tanks in an emergency. The others will have to rely on the standard infantry screens and hope the line holds.
jaxor1983 wrote: So it seems like GW really wants to sell some Ork models for the next few months with these rules previews. Mordian is looking more and more attractive for all the impending first turn charges.
Just deploy sufficiently back or have some chaff(which is easy with king of chaff army). They can't pull 30" charges reliably. If you are worried about ork T1 charge how you deal with factions that can do way more reliable T1 charges?
jaxor1983 wrote: So it seems like GW really wants to sell some Ork models for the next few months with these rules previews. Mordian is looking more and more attractive for all the impending first turn charges.
Go catachan in an Ork Heavy Meta. Paying less points for a S4 melee attack while maintaining a better laser rifle? Add in some priests and the Ork player will seriously have to question if they can kill enough in the intial charge to make it worth it.
Oh yeah I forgot about Yarrick. If orks become the army to beat Yarrick is about as nasty of a counter unit as you could pick and he's still not useless against other units.
If ork titanic units ever somehow become a threat then yarrick next to a shadowsword is probable the nastiest hard counter in existence. +1 to hit, rerolling all misses and wounds, and thats you before you add in regimental buffs. you lose the +1 and reroll wounds against non titanic but lets be real, you're wounding pretty much everything in the game on 2's anyway, and a shadowsword rerolling all misses is still a very scary prospect.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Oh yeah I forgot about Yarrick. If orks become the army to beat Yarrick is about as nasty of a counter unit as you could pick and he's still not useless against other units.
I used to run him a lot. He's useless outside of Orks. Any dedicated cc char/unit wipes the floor with him and his three attacks just isn't enough to do damage when you do get to swing first. He's just way too expensive for what you get at 130 unless you know you'll be up against Orks, which is a shame because he's easily my best painted guard model.
Ok, what's the deal with bullgryns lately? Reecius used them and now the guy who won the SoCal Open did too. What am I missing? They just seem like TEQs with T5, 3W, and worse weapons.
That makes sense, but they just seem so easy to kite, and 378pts is more than 90 infantry! Maybe I need to see bullgryns in action, but at this point I'd much rather have more guys and guns...
TankCmdr wrote: Ah gotcha, so lock up a threat with chaff, then hit with the gryns to clear out the threat?
Yep.
If you want to see it check out Frontlinegaming_tv on Twitch, SoCal games are up in their channel, you can watch Brandon Grant on both day 2 vids and see how he uses them.
Also concerning the 9x Vulture list, they could just focus down all your land based infantry and if you only have fliers on the table don't you auto lose?
Dynas wrote: Also concerning the 9x Vulture list, they could just focus down all your land based infantry and if you only have fliers on the table don't you auto lose?
You know I hadn't about that...is the rule for flyers like planes, etc or anything with the fly keyword? Because if it's the fly keyword you could wreck some of the competitive necron lists that are 90% destroyers and tomb blades...
Yeah I've seen 90 guardsmen die turn 1 surprisingly often, both on ITC and regular missions. Granted it normally took some sort of Uber alpha strike aggressive list like pre Nerf blood Angels to do it but it's not impossible.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Yeah I've seen 90 guardsmen die turn 1 surprisingly often, both on ITC and regular missions. Granted it normally took some sort of Uber alpha strike aggressive list like pre Nerf blood Angels to do it but it's not impossible.
Lots of Tesla (not 90 but definitely probaly 50, so in 2 turns your done. Ive done it with Nids devilgant bomb shoot twice followed up by T1 Genestealer charge with kraken. That may have been regular conscripts though back when that was popular.
And it was 90? infantry? That should live for a while if you focus on surviving with them.
Dunno. Orks lose 60 models a turn easily and they are T4 and often 5++. So unless you reduce his firepower a lot 90 guys don't survive THAT long. IG also has morale more to worry than orks who have LD20 even after 10 casualties and could have LD30 as long as another mob is close or just pass with d3 MW's.
Not in turn 1 obviously but turn 3 if you don't keep care of those 90 guardsmen are easily dead and wipeout by boots on ground rule could be opponents goal with that flyer swarm...
Can someone explain the difference between the REgimental orders of the Voystroyan vs the Valhallan. It seem tey are the same,excpet Valhallan can kill your own guys, and Vostroyan doesn't....
Automatically Appended Next Post: Thoughts on this list.
Spoiler:
Vostroyan Battallian +5 CP 2-3 HQ 30 Co Cmd with Laspistol, chainsword,Warlord: Draconian Disciplinarian HQ 30 Co Cmd with Laspistol, chainsword, Kurov Aquila HQ
3T
40 Inf Sq, lasguns x9, sgt with chainsword Las pistol T
40 Inf Sq, lasguns x9, sgt with chainsword Las pistol T
40 Inf Sq, lasguns x9, sgt with chainsword Las pistol T
Voystroyan Brigade +12 CP 3-5 HQ 30 Lord Commissar, Boltgun, power sword HQ 35 Lord Commissar, Boltgun, power sword HQ 35 Co Cmd with Laspistol, Chainsword, Laurels of Command HQ
6-12 T
120 30x Conscripts T
120 30x Conscripts T
120 30x Conscripts T
120 30x Conscripts T
108 27x Conscripts T
80 20x Conscripts T
3-5 FA 90 Artemia Pattern Hellhound; Heavy Flamer FA 90 Artemia Pattern Hellhound; Heavy Flamer FA 90 Artemia Pattern Hellhound; Heavy Flamer FA
3-8 E
36 Astorpath, Nightsroud, Pyschic Barrier E
30 Master of Ordnance E
35 Ministorum Priest, Chainsword, Laspistol E
2000 CP=12+5+3-1=19 Total Infantry 41 "elite" plus 167 Conscripts; 9 Vehicles
Strategy is pure board control and swarm into enemy. Once locked into combat use Vostroyan orders to shoot in melee, then stabby stab with bayonets in fight phase. Commissars insure discipline. Hellhoudns harass flanks and move aroud quick. Astropath is there to use shoured or barrier as need. Priest buffs the sonscript chain. The 30 regular shock troops screen the Basilisk with the Master of Ordnance. S. Also considered taking another relic, not sure what one though. Maybe armor of graf or deathmask of ollanius.
Torn between what regiment though. The choices are as follows.
Catachan seems best for bonus strength and leadership for all the infantry/conscripts and getting rerolls on both the Basilisk and Hellhounds getting consitent high number of shots.
Moridan forRepel the enemy character target and Volley fire stratgem, the baislisk will like be withing 3" of each other gainin +1 to hit, so hitting on 3's rerolling 1's with the MoO. hellhounds could be run together also gaining +1 to hit. In addition infantry will likely be packed in gaining leadership and overwatch bonus on 5's if I am charged. Which means conscripts are hitting on 5's when they shoot or are charged.
Voystroyan for sheer mob rule/board control. Extneded rapid fire range could be helpful , shoot in combat and melee in combat. Firstbron pride looks good with COnscript blobs hitting on 4's with FRFSRF or using Repel the ENemy.
Valhallan, Grim demeanour can help with faile dleadership, but with commisars I think it might be fine. Could be good for Vehicles degredation though.
Stratgems
Stratagem for T1 Cover save if go 2nd
Firstborn Pride Every turn
Take Cover (does this stack with the new Stratagem that is army wide cover, i think not.)
Fight to the Death if needed for morale
Genadiers and Vengenace for cadia for overwatch
Consodliate Squads
Aeriel SPotter each turn for Basilisk
Crush them on Hellhounds each turn
.Please note that there are still Ork players xD. You don't need to play strong army to have fun 
move. I could see someone doing it to a friend to mess with them once as a joke but that absolutely would not hold up to any judge who isn't a moron. That's not tactics or skillful play, that's intentionally trying to trip up your opponent through abusing a gamey interpretation of the rules. I would expect most areas to say something along the lines of "no, you need to declare all your targets so he can decide where he pops the strategem. If you waited that long and didn't say anything then it's clear you weren't going to shoot anything else and are now just trying to cheat the system because he rotated ion shields. Have fun shooting the questoris." Even if that is technically 
I suppose some mix of mechanized and tanks,
