Naix wrote: So I've been noticing a trend of late, at least with Dark Eldar and Necrons that I'm struggling to keep Pask alive, and with that many points nuked on a turn 1 Alpha strike (can't always keep him out of LoS after their maneuvers) I find it a struggle to play catch-up when my turn comes around.
Does anyone else reckon that Pask is no longer competitive due to the fact that he's just as vulnerable as a normal leman russ? Destroyers hurt man.
He's only about 10 points more than a regular command tank for serious bonuses, I would say he is fine. I just wouldnt kit him out to the nines, I'd just leave him with turret weapon and maybe a lascannon. The more weapons you put on him the bigger a target he becomes.
True, but at the same time I would consider a regular tank commander to be non-competitive as a result too against such lists.
Naix wrote: So I've been noticing a trend of late, at least with Dark Eldar and Necrons that I'm struggling to keep Pask alive, and with that many points nuked on a turn 1 Alpha strike (can't always keep him out of LoS after their maneuvers) I find it a struggle to play catch-up when my turn comes around.
Does anyone else reckon that Pask is no longer competitive due to the fact that he's just as vulnerable as a normal leman russ? Destroyers hurt man.
He's only about 10 points more than a regular command tank for serious bonuses, I would say he is fine. I just wouldnt kit him out to the nines, I'd just leave him with turret weapon and maybe a lascannon. The more weapons you put on him the bigger a target he becomes.
True, but at the same time I would consider a regular tank commander to be non-competitive as a result too against such lists.
What would you replace him with that is as good but doesn't die to destroyers?
I think the answer is to accept that you can't keep everything safe, your going to lose valuable models and instead build in redundancy so that you maintain enough firepower to answer back. Its harder against DE because they can bring a ton of good, but cheap funs aswell but I have found Necrons rely on 1-2 Destroyer units for the most part of their damage.
Naix wrote: So I've been noticing a trend of late, at least with Dark Eldar and Necrons that I'm struggling to keep Pask alive, and with that many points nuked on a turn 1 Alpha strike (can't always keep him out of LoS after their maneuvers) I find it a struggle to play catch-up when my turn comes around.
Does anyone else reckon that Pask is no longer competitive due to the fact that he's just as vulnerable as a normal leman russ? Destroyers hurt man.
He's only about 10 points more than a regular command tank for serious bonuses, I would say he is fine. I just wouldnt kit him out to the nines, I'd just leave him with turret weapon and maybe a lascannon. The more weapons you put on him the bigger a target he becomes.
True, but at the same time I would consider a regular tank commander to be non-competitive as a result too against such lists.
What would you replace him with that is as good but doesn't die to destroyers?
I think the answer is to accept that you can't keep everything safe, your going to lose valuable models and instead build in redundancy so that you maintain enough firepower to answer back. Its harder against DE because they can bring a ton of good, but cheap funs aswell but I have found Necrons rely on 1-2 Destroyer units for the most part of their damage.
You can't keep everything safe, but you're going to lose a bunch of tanks either way and I can guarantee you won't have a single BS 2/3 tank on the board after round two. If all of your tanks are the same price/threat, you at least make your opponent worry about target priority. Also in ITC, Pask/TC's are minimum 4 free VP so you can't take them anyway unless you like starting games with a 4 point handicap.
I just seriously looked at Harker for the first time and he makes for an interesting unit... surrounding units re-rolling 1s and he carries a heavy bolter around for a little extra fire support. Only thing is that he's 50 points, seems pricey.
Ordana wrote: I think the answer is to accept that you can't keep everything safe, your going to lose valuable models and instead build in redundancy so that you maintain enough firepower to answer back. Its harder against DE because they can bring a ton of good, but cheap funs aswell but I have found Necrons rely on 1-2 Destroyer units for the most part of their damage.
In general Pask suffers from unique character syndrome. Basically he's non-scalable. Pask is better the smaller the point level you play. 2k? You are going to lose 1-2 russ in a turn so if opponent goes first Pask WILL die.
1k? One russ can live 2-3 turns easily so Pask can get 2-3 rounds of shooting easily.
Basically the bigger the game the more you need to bring same thing if you want to have them around more than 1 turn. And Pask being unique...Well if you take him on 2k game you have to accept if you go first he shoots one, if he goes first it's basically bullet magnet from others so you need to make sure you have something ELSE that you want enemy to shoot less than Pask.
Maybe it's a stupid question but: I have seen some comments saying that Leman Russ tanks are better than Basilisks. Is artillery necessary in 1500-2000 army lists? I'm thinking about having a build with 6 infantry units supported by 3-4 Leman Russ tanks, Scout Sentinels and 2-3 Chimeras. Does it make any sense or artillery is too important to not include it in the list?
Lot depends on your terrain. If you an hide basilisk it has obviously going to be lot better than if you can't hide. If you have typical GW terrain board you won't be hiding basilisk out of LOS all that often so leman russ is much more appealing.
Yes, there will be a problem with getting enough cover to hide artillery. Basically, I wanted to use Battle Cannons as a mobile and more durable platform. Thank you for your comment.
CaptainLame wrote: Maybe it's a stupid question but: I have seen some comments saying that Leman Russ tanks are better than Basilisks. Is artillery necessary in 1500-2000 army lists? I'm thinking about having a build with 6 infantry units supported by 3-4 Leman Russ tanks, Scout Sentinels and 2-3 Chimeras. Does it make any sense or artillery is too important to not include it in the list?
Russ tanks are better because they cost more points. The real debate is if 2 bare bones Russ is better than 3 basilisk, or if 2 decked out Russ tanks is better than 4 basilisk.
2 Russ tanks average 14 shots while 3 basilisk average 13.5 shots. Regiment makes a huge difference with Russ gaining the most from catachan and Basilisk from cadian. The extra -1 armor save makes a huge difference some of the time.
Durability depends on what's shooting back. Usually 33 t6 wounds is better than 24 t8 but results may vary.
Leman Russ Battle Tanks [20 PL, 332pts]
. Leman Russ Battle Tank [10 PL, 180pts]: Battle Cannon [22pts], Heavy Bolters [16pts], Lascannon [20pts]
. Leman Russ Battle Tank [10 PL, 152pts]: Battle Cannon [22pts], Heavy Bolter [8pts]
+ Dedicated Transport [18 PL, 279pts] +
Chimera [6 PL, 93pts]: Heavy Bolter [8pts], Multi-laser [10pts]
Chimera [6 PL, 93pts]: Heavy Bolter [8pts], Multi-laser [10pts]
Chimera [6 PL, 93pts]: Heavy Bolter [8pts], Multi-laser [10pts]
++ Total: [91 PL, 1495pts] ++
I'm trying to make this list as universal as possible but the majority of games will be played against Necrons and DeathWatch. I was thinking about 3 infantry squads as a cover for my tanks and 3 mobile units supported by Chimeras. Could you tell me if this build is good enough or I should change it?
Leman Russ Battle Tanks [20 PL, 332pts]
. Leman Russ Battle Tank [10 PL, 180pts]: Battle Cannon [22pts], Heavy Bolters [16pts], Lascannon [20pts]
. Leman Russ Battle Tank [10 PL, 152pts]: Battle Cannon [22pts], Heavy Bolter [8pts]
+ Dedicated Transport [18 PL, 279pts] +
Chimera [6 PL, 93pts]: Heavy Bolter [8pts], Multi-laser [10pts]
Chimera [6 PL, 93pts]: Heavy Bolter [8pts], Multi-laser [10pts]
Chimera [6 PL, 93pts]: Heavy Bolter [8pts], Multi-laser [10pts]
++ Total: [91 PL, 1495pts] ++
I'm trying to make this list as universal as possible but the majority of games will be played against Necrons and DeathWatch. I was thinking about 3 infantry squads as a cover for my tanks and 3 mobile units supported by Chimeras. Could you tell me if this build is good enough or I should change it?
Multi-lasers... gross. Get rid of them and the chainsaws for autocannons on your sentinels. Honestly it looks like you're kind of forcing the brigade... you could go 2 battalions and not lose much, and be free from those elite spots that don't really seem to do much for you
You can probably ditch a company Commander as well. Your front line Infantry are going to get nuked turn 1 so 6 orders for 6 squads is probably overkill.
CaptainLame wrote: Thank you. I will break it into 2 battalions. I will add Autocannons to Sentinels instead of ML and remove Elites. Anything else?
Do not take Chimeras. If you REALLY want some metal boxes on the table -- take Tauroxes instead. They are cheaper and much more effective in the shooting phase.
Cothonian wrote: I just seriously looked at Harker for the first time and he makes for an interesting unit... surrounding units re-rolling 1s and he carries a heavy bolter around for a little extra fire support. Only thing is that he's 50 points, seems pricey.
Many armies pay far more for a character that does the same and doesn't even have as good of a gun. Remember he buffs everything Catachans, including tanks and superheavies. If you run Catachans and have any shooting whatsoever I'd say he's pretty much a no brainer.
What are the opinions on an army consisting of 3/4 AM and 1/4 scions?
3x plasma troops squads and 1 plasma elite squads + primes mixed with the usual AM gunline.
drop troops go for objectives or kill an important target
It's format dependant. ITC youre handing your opponent free VP because a bunch of small T3/4+ save units means you'll never wipe out more units per turn than he will.
Outside of any mission set that factors in units destroyed/kill points, it can be really strong. I run a 500 point BN of MT in most of my guard lists.
2x Tprime with rods
2x MT Command Squad with 4x PG 3x Scions with 2x PG 1X PP
Because it's its own battalion, it gains the Scion Regiment bonus of 6's generating extra shots at half range, which can really help the turn you drop in.
Because it's its own battalion, it gains the Scion Regiment bonus of 6's generating extra shots at half range, which can really help the turn you drop in.
The Doctrine actually says 'roll of 6+': so what ways are there I can get +1 (or more) to hit for a squad(s) of Scions to take extra advantage of this?
Because it's its own battalion, it gains the Scion Regiment bonus of 6's generating extra shots at half range, which can really help the turn you drop in.
The Doctrine actually says 'roll of 6+': so what ways are there I can get +1 (or more) to hit for a squad(s) of Scions to take extra advantage of this?
None that I'm aware of. Cadians and I think Vostroyans are the only AM sub factions with a +1 to hit modifier as stratagems. The FW searchlight platform might work, but I dont think it can take Militarum Tempestus as a regiment keyword. But when you're putting out 28 plasma shots with reroll 1's, you're bound to have it trigger.
Dunno if this is the right place to ask.. I can start a new threat for soups.. I've been intrigued to start a astra militarum detachment along with my blood angels before I even started playing 40k thanks to Dawn of War: winter assault. I'd like to get someone's opinion what would it take for me to get a AM gunline with screens with minimal investment. Which I would supplement with my mobile close combat oriented Blood Angels. Maybe 1/3 or 2/5 of the 2k army could be for the AM models. The tricky part is that I have already three armies at 3000-6000 points and I can't spend another 500€ to get stuff to make it work. I know that AM is an expensive faction, but using the start collecting and such boxes might give me the tools to have a proper gunline with lil' screen to accompany my blood thristy marines.
Hep me out here or just suggest to start a sepparate threat.
Heavy Weapons Squad - x3 Mortars
Heavy Weapons Squad - x3 Mortars
Heavy Weapons Squad - x3 Mortars
429 points and a good foundation for area denial in 8th. Relatively affordable if you can buy used over time, might bust your budget (~$400 USD at retail) otherwise. You can bulk up the points by adding some special weapons as well. With creative modelling you can get lots of weapons teams out of the kits so you could change some weapons around or buy some bits and save as well.
If you want to be a little different and/or do not want to dump CP into Guard morale switch out a commander for a lord commissar and drop him in the middle of a few squads.
Using the start collecting box is hard because of the tank and commissar. If you go x3 infantry squads, 2 officers using the commissars and x3 Lemans you would save money but probably not achieve the result you seem to want.
Are leman russes so bad? I was thinking more like a batallion of infantry with mortars and a spear head with tanks with high strength to bring enemy armor down.
Xirax wrote: Dunno if this is the right place to ask.. I can start a new threat for soups.. I've been intrigued to start a astra militarum detachment along with my blood angels before I even started playing 40k thanks to Dawn of War: winter assault. I'd like to get someone's opinion what would it take for me to get a AM gunline with screens with minimal investment. Which I would supplement with my mobile close combat oriented Blood Angels. Maybe 1/3 or 2/5 of the 2k army could be for the AM models. The tricky part is that I have already three armies at 3000-6000 points and I can't spend another 500€ to get stuff to make it work. I know that AM is an expensive faction, but using the start collecting and such boxes might give me the tools to have a proper gunline with lil' screen to accompany my blood thristy marines.
Hep me out here or just suggest to start a sepparate threat.
Thanks.
- Xirax
In support of BA I would look at some Scion squads who can Deepstrike to keep up with them. Leman Russus, Basilisk/Manticores and Mortar Heavy Weapon Squads to provide fire support.
I have no idea how orders really work or which HQ as AM I should take, but in my head I see a bunch of tanks screened by infantry and my BA slowing the opponent my AM gunline to be operational.. I made a quick list, but I have no idea what is good or bad so a lot of grain and salt here please.. This is more of a crippling your opponent the whole game than a get those objectives list.. Is the idea haywire?
Captain [6 PL, 129pts]: 2. Artisan of War, Jump Pack, Storm shield, The Angel's Wing (replaces jump pack), Thunder hammer, Warlord
Chief Librarian Mephiston [8 PL, 145pts]
+ Elites +
Death Company [27 PL, 315pts]: Jump Pack
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Power axe
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Power axe
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Power axe
Sanguinary Ancient [6 PL, 99pts]: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword, Standard of Sacrifice
Leman Russes are great! They are probably the best unit in our codex, but they are quite expensive and you may end with "IG army with BA ally" instead of "BA army with IG support" (and do not forget an "Imperial Guard Rule of Three": if you take some good unit in your army take AT LEAST three of them!). If it is right for you then go on.
As for your questions: yes they are multipart kits and you can customize both tanks and HWTs but you should pay attention to what turret guns you LR box comes with. There are two boxes (LRBT and LR Demolisher if I'm not mistaken) and they have totally different sets of main guns. Though you can usually buy necessary turrets from bits resellers of course. And while HWTs have all weapon options they lack weapon mounts for them so you'll have to get a bit creative (as I did).
As for orders they are VERY simple: commanding officer points at a nearby unit (or maybe at himself) and tells: "Do this!" And ordered unit does. For example, Tank Commander can point at himself and tell: "Reroll 1s to-hit!" and it gives him said rerolls in this shooting phase. Simple and effective (like Imperial Guard likes it to be).
And about Pask: there is a miniature of Pask you can glue (or magnet -- always try to magnetize your tanks!) into the top hatch of your LR to represent him, but you can probably use any tank commander miniature if you can make it different enough from other commanders. I did it this way and had no complaints.
This is a photo of a regular Tank Commander -- just replace his head with one from Company Commander and give him power sword (as a more noble weapon) and you will have your own Pask ready.
AstraVlad wrote: This is a photo of a regular Tank Commander -- just replace his head with one from Company Commander and give him power sword (as a more noble weapon) and you will have your own Pask ready.
Or you could put a practical weapon on him like a pistol. Realistically speaking, a sword is pretty fething useless on a tank commander, from both inside the tank and sitting at the top hatch. Any tank commander who is worth his salt is going to carry a sidearm instead of a sword.
Infantry officers on the other hand, actually might get some use out of swords, as they frequently close with the enemy. It is still a mostly ceremonial weapon of last resort though.
Off topic I know, but I just wanted to point that out. Go for the grittier, more realistic pistol on your tank commander.
AstraVlad wrote: This is a photo of a regular Tank Commander -- just replace his head with one from Company Commander and give him power sword (as a more noble weapon) and you will have your own Pask ready.
Or you could put a practical weapon on him like a pistol. Realistically speaking, a sword is pretty fething useless on a tank commander, from both inside the tank and sitting at the top hatch.
WHAT?! HERESY!!! DRIVE ME CLOSER, I WANT TO HIT THEM WITH MY SWORD!!!
Heavy Weapons Squad - x3 Mortars
Heavy Weapons Squad - x3 Mortars
Heavy Weapons Squad - x3 Mortars
429 points and a good foundation for area denial in 8th. Relatively affordable if you can buy used over time, might bust your budget (~$400 USD at retail) otherwise. You can bulk up the points by adding some special weapons as well. With creative modelling you can get lots of weapons teams out of the kits so you could change some weapons around or buy some bits and save as well.
If you want to be a little different and/or do not want to dump CP into Guard morale switch out a commander for a lord commissar and drop him in the middle of a few squads.
Using the start collecting box is hard because of the tank and commissar. If you go x3 infantry squads, 2 officers using the commissars and x3 Lemans you would save money but probably not achieve the result you seem to want.
If you have points I would be upgrading mortas on infantry squad for heavy bolters. They will be largely screen duty so ignore LOS is useless and you get +1S and -1AP. That's going to make you deadlier against infantry.
Xirax wrote: Dunno if this is the right place to ask.. I can start a new threat for soups.. I've been intrigued to start a astra militarum detachment along with my blood angels before I even started playing 40k thanks to Dawn of War: winter assault. I'd like to get someone's opinion what would it take for me to get a AM gunline with screens with minimal investment. Which I would supplement with my mobile close combat oriented Blood Angels. Maybe 1/3 or 2/5 of the 2k army could be for the AM models. The tricky part is that I have already three armies at 3000-6000 points and I can't spend another 500€ to get stuff to make it work. I know that AM is an expensive faction, but using the start collecting and such boxes might give me the tools to have a proper gunline with lil' screen to accompany my blood thristy marines.
Hep me out here or just suggest to start a sepparate threat.
Thanks.
- Xirax
In support of BA I would look at some Scion squads who can Deepstrike to keep up with them. Leman Russus, Basilisk/Manticores and Mortar Heavy Weapon Squads to provide fire support.
He'll run into issues with the deep strike limits especially looking at his dream list. Actually he'll be running into them anyway. DC+sanguinary guard+captian=over 50 PL already. He'll need to have that much in other stuff. If he has scions even harder to ensure he doesnt' have TOO MANY deep strikers.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
w1zard wrote: Or you could put a practical weapon on him like a pistol. Realistically speaking, a sword is pretty fething useless on a tank commander, from both inside the tank and sitting at the top hatch. Any tank commander who is worth his salt is going to carry a sidearm instead of a sword.
But it looks cool I have sword fielding guy top of chimera with twin flamer. Appropriately enough that chimera spends lots of time charging into combat!
Under 200€ (which is still ok budget-wise) with three box of start collecting and the Pask model (list price 203,5€ here in Finland), but I think I can get it with a -10% discount. So Feels ok.
If I understood correctly I could field a batallion:
No, it would not . But I would do it another way. I would take an Infantry Battalion (2 Company Commanders + 3 Infantry Squads + HWT Squad) and Supreme Command Detachment of 3 Tank Commanders without Pask. It would have:
1. One more CP.
2. Four infantry orders per turn (that is really important!).
3. A tank order for every tank.
4. Redundancy (Pask is not so difficult to kill turn 1 -- and if you lose them you lose the only source of tank orders that cripples your tanks efficiency a lot).
As a rule of thumb, when you create an IG list it is almost always better to aim for redundancy and be ready to lose a lot of models every turn. Guardsmen are squishy so one should plan for an army to stay working even after heavy losses.
No, it would not . But I would do it another way. I would take an Infantry Battalion (2 Company Commanders + 3 Infantry Squads + HWT Squad) and Supreme Command Detachment of 3 Tank Commanders without Pask. It would have: 1. One more CP. 2. Four infantry orders per turn (that is really important!). 3. A tank order for every tank. 4. Redundancy (Pask is not so difficult to kill turn 1 -- and if you lose them you lose the only source of tank orders that cripples your tanks efficiency a lot).
As a rule of thumb, when you create an IG list it is almost always better to aim for redundancy and be ready to lose a lot of models every turn. Guardsmen are squishy so one should plan for an army to stay working even after heavy losses.
Hey, thank you soo much!
That feels right yes, maybe I'll still get the Pask model and magnetize.
That's not even too big of an investment.
@Tneva82: My captain and DC probably start on the table anyways (if I want to try a T1 charge), but now with the free'd points I'll get some razor/rhino plasma tacticals for objective grabbing.
AstraVlad wrote: 4. Redundancy (Pask is not so difficult to kill turn 1 -- and if you lose them you lose the only source of tank orders that cripples your tanks efficiency a lot).
I would try to find points upgrading that one commander into Pask. Just 'cause you have Pask doesn't mean you can't take regular commanders. Maybe pask+commander+regular. The Pask upgrade over regular commander is IMO well worth it. Especiallly with plasma's he's just hideous.
Yes he'll be shot down often but if you get T1 he'll generally torch at least 1 big target and you can use it as distraction carnifex drawing firepower from the death company and sanguinary guard at least. He's not THAT much more expensive than regular tank commander so if you go for tank commander might just as well go for pask.
Xirax wrote: I have no idea how orders really work or which HQ as AM I should take, but in my head I see a bunch of tanks screened by infantry and my BA slowing the opponent my AM gunline to be operational.. I made a quick list, but I have no idea what is good or bad so a lot of grain and salt here please.. This is more of a crippling your opponent the whole game than a get those objectives list.. Is the idea haywire?
Captain [6 PL, 129pts]: 2. Artisan of War, Jump Pack, Storm shield, The Angel's Wing (replaces jump pack), Thunder hammer, Warlord
Chief Librarian Mephiston [8 PL, 145pts]
+ Elites +
Death Company [27 PL, 315pts]: Jump Pack
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Power axe
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Power axe
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Power axe
Sanguinary Ancient [6 PL, 99pts]: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword, Standard of Sacrifice
Probably way over my budget, but you should get the idea of my vision.
EDIT:
After some GW browsing.. would it be that bad to get three sets of start collecting boxes? This could be the batallion and spearhead.
I assume that those kits are multipart? That I can choose which weapon options I can take for the LR or the heavy weapons team or am I wrong?
To supplement the above I could get like a wyvern and a basilisk later..
Another modeling question, how do you build the Commander Pask’s command tank, so can I use one of the starter sets to do it?
Some noob guestions for sure.. hope you can take it.
I used three start collecting boxes to start building up my force. The commissars can be left or converted into company commanders with a simple head swap, the LHBT have a variety of weapon choices and the heavy weapon squads have the weapons for all 4 weapon sets. I’d advise buying 6 extra 60mm bases so you can make more heavy weapons teams (the missile launcher (which is crap) can easily be converted into another mortar). One thing to note is that there are discount websites that only ship to Europe and the boxes literally cost 60% of the US prices.
Xirax wrote: I have no idea how orders really work or which HQ as AM I should take, but in my head I see a bunch of tanks screened by infantry and my BA slowing the opponent my AM gunline to be operational.. I made a quick list, but I have no idea what is good or bad so a lot of grain and salt here please.. This is more of a crippling your opponent the whole game than a get those objectives list.. Is the idea haywire?
Captain [6 PL, 129pts]: 2. Artisan of War, Jump Pack, Storm shield, The Angel's Wing (replaces jump pack), Thunder hammer, Warlord
Chief Librarian Mephiston [8 PL, 145pts]
+ Elites +
Death Company [27 PL, 315pts]: Jump Pack
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Power axe
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Power axe
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Power axe
Sanguinary Ancient [6 PL, 99pts]: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword, Standard of Sacrifice
Probably way over my budget, but you should get the idea of my vision.
EDIT:
After some GW browsing.. would it be that bad to get three sets of start collecting boxes? This could be the batallion and spearhead.
I assume that those kits are multipart? That I can choose which weapon options I can take for the LR or the heavy weapons team or am I wrong?
To supplement the above I could get like a wyvern and a basilisk later..
Another modeling question, how do you build the Commander Pask’s command tank, so can I use one of the starter sets to do it?
Some noob guestions for sure.. hope you can take it.
Here to help, noob .
Start collecting boxes are pretty good, coming out to something like $110 USD (at MSRP, so - 15/20% for FLGS prices). Main consideration for you: The LRBT set cannot make a Punisher- the Punisher is a variant of the Leman Russ Demolisher. You can build the tank in the SC set with a Battle cannon, eradicator, vanquisher, exterminator, or with a small conversion a conqueror. The box is still giving you savings even if you don't use the commissar, as long as you're fine with those options and not the executioner/punisher/demolisher.
I prefer mortars to wyverns. For real artillery look at manticores & basilisks (different uses+preferences, depending on your local meta and your regiment)
How are people liking Hellhounds? Im surprised I never have used them before but I think ill take 2x in a brigade.
Ive been having issues being Cadian and not wanting to move. Also issues hitting things with tons of minuses to hit. So Im thinking they are great options to try and hit a flyer so try and engaged overlapping fields of fire.
Also as a counter charge unit to run in front of my bullgryn blob.
rhinoceraids wrote: How are people liking Hellhounds? Im surprised I never have used them before but I think ill take 2x in a brigade.
Ive been having issues being Cadian and not wanting to move. Also issues hitting things with tons of minuses to hit. So Im thinking they are great options to try and hit a flyer so try and engaged overlapping fields of fire.
Also as a counter charge unit to run in front of my bullgryn blob.
Hellhounds are amazing. That's why someone made the top 10 at LVO by running 14 of them. You don't need to go that crazy though. I've found one to be great. Sometimes people explode it in one turn, but even if it's damaged it's still doing work unhindered. I had a game where it killed 3 squads of marine scouts during overwatch in one turn.
I've been considering what to run in infantry squads, and I've come to the conclusion that plasmas are definately the most worthwhile special weapon outside of more specialized squads, letting the squad punch above their weightclass. Also very cheap for what it does! I'm a lot more conflicted on heavy weapons, which I feel are a waste of points running in HWT(aside from mortars) if going up against anything that are shooty. Squads are excellent homes for them in that regard, but its two models removed for FRF!SRF! and hit quite poorly if the squad has to move forward. I play against a lot of shooting armies, so its often I who needs to move up a bit to get range on the Tau and Admech.
Outside of that, I feel like Autocannons do well in Infantry Squads, to further allow them to punch upward - if you even want to spend the points to put a HWT in them to begin with?
Lascannons seems a waste on their 4+ BS, but I wonder if getting a lot of Command Squads with a lascannon is not a cheap way to get good lascannon shots? Maybe as many as you've got company commanders.
What's your thought on equipping the infantry squads, heavy weapon team or no? I know people are going to say mortars though, but I really don't feel like mortar spamming my enemy. Also I just don't have the models.
tneva82 wrote: I would go hb over mortar. Extra s and ap and ignore los not usefull for infantry squad that is often on front anyway.
That's a good point, hb has some nice punching power for infantry, though it's a lot harder to do anything with vehicles. Would you run them in every infantry squad just for added firepower, or is that too many points?
I was thinking of running a brigade detachment and going for 6-8 squads with plasmas and potentially a HWT.
rhinoceraids wrote: How are people liking Hellhounds? Im surprised I never have used them before but I think ill take 2x in a brigade.
Ive been having issues being Cadian and not wanting to move. Also issues hitting things with tons of minuses to hit. So Im thinking they are great options to try and hit a flyer so try and engaged overlapping fields of fire.
Also as a counter charge unit to run in front of my bullgryn blob.
Hellhounds are rock solid. Quick and nasty versus nearly everything. Added bonus: If your opponent charges at your Hellhounds with melee troops the Hound more or less gets a second shooting phase. Flamer weapons for the win! Also Hellhounds explode on a 4+ when destroyed, which is nasty for attackers.
On another note... Anybody make use of regular Ogryns? If you know you're going to be fighting hordes of cheaper units I could see them being effective. Otherwise Bullgryns seem to pack one heck of a lot more punch and can take a lot more hits.
I would like to have a unit of regular Ogryns in my army but they are expensive models...
Ran a unit of 10 crusaders with a priest and astropath screening my cadians against some nids the other day. Genestealer heavy army. These guys did amazing! Got charged, lost 1 guy, returned by eating 7 genestealer, and by the end of my turn I had cleared the genestealer squad in cc. Gave my shooting units a chance to deal with other incoming threats. More play testing to come, but excited to finish converting this squad. That game made me a believer.
Smotejob wrote: Ran a unit of 10 crusaders with a priest and astropath screening my cadians against some nids the other day. Genestealer heavy army. These guys did amazing! Got charged, lost 1 guy, returned by eating 7 genestealer, and by the end of my turn I had cleared the genestealer squad in cc. Gave my shooting units a chance to deal with other incoming threats. More play testing to come, but excited to finish converting this squad. That game made me a believer.
I had a weird idea of a Roman legion themed army using Mordian rules that would use a bunch of crusaders. Doubt it'd be super competitive but it would look cool and let me use Roman soldiers as the basis for conversions.
Smotejob wrote: Ran a unit of 10 crusaders with a priest and astropath screening my cadians against some nids the other day. Genestealer heavy army. These guys did amazing! Got charged, lost 1 guy, returned by eating 7 genestealer, and by the end of my turn I had cleared the genestealer squad in cc. Gave my shooting units a chance to deal with other incoming threats. More play testing to come, but excited to finish converting this squad. That game made me a believer.
Hate to be a downer, but that's either really hot dice on your part or really cold dice on his. Assuming a 15 man unit, that's 45 attacks, 30 hits, 19 wounds, and 6-7 dead crusaders after the 3++.
Your 9 crusaders with priest buff should have gotten 27 attacks, 18 hits, 6 wounds, and 4 dead stealers after their 5++.
Granted, going purely off of averages is what causes people to make bad listbuilding or tactical decisions because they blindly follow mathhammer without looking at a unit's other qualities. But I think you should give it a few more games because this sounds like a freak occurrence.
The astropath can make the Crusaders 2++ if he successfully uses the Psychic Barrier power.
Crusaders can be a useful tarpit but they do cost a lot of points and they are easily wiped by anything causing mortal wounds so keep some infantry squads around to help screen.
Well apparently this is the 8th place list from the London GT, pure IG
8th Place
Spoiler:
Breaking news, shadowswords, tank commanders, mortars, and bullgryn are good. News at 11
On a more serious note, very interesting mix of detachments. Can't believe he made it to 8th with just 30 guardsmen with all the crazy stuff running around but I guess a shadowsword and 6 bullgryn help cover that weakness a bit.
Got a noob friendly tournament at 1500 points coming up and thought I'd bust out my Guard for a change. I don't have much infantry because Vostroyans are sort of expensive, so I was thinking somethink like 3 infantry squads, some Basilisks and heavy weapon squads to hold the line, backed up by Scions and maybe Bullgryns. Does that sound any fun? Maybe too much gunline -type of list. I could bring Valkyrie for some mobility. I expect less optimized casual lists, but could face some big baddies like Knights or Daemon Primarchs.
rhinoceraids wrote: I am surprised by the shadowsword. Doesnt seem to be enough huge units to make it worth it but clearly there are.
Alternatively they could just be me like me and hate losing to big things. The Shadowsword can help guarantee that you do not lose to your opponent's silly big thing. They can also do some things like kill Wave Serpents where the rest of your options can really struggle.
rhinoceraids wrote: Bullgryns are pretty intense. I am surprised by the shadowsword. Doesnt seem to be enough huge units to make it worth it but clearly there are.
*Note the lack of forgeworld*
Shadowsword is more than just a fethoff AT gun. That thing kicks out 30 heavy bolters shots and 4 lascannons a turn as well, not to mention it can be scary in combat and even use it's guns in combat if it doesn't feel like falling back.
It is a powerful centerpiece model that can shoot and fight in CQC while being fairly difficult to kill, all things that your average guard units lack. It's a "death star" type unit that is otherwise missing in pure guard armies, a jack of all trades unit and honestly pretty good at all of them for the cost. For casual games this isn't something you need as often but I don't think it's surprising that most top tier lists tend to have some sort of super unit, you know things like a primarch or Celestine, something that is a heavy hitter. You need a unit that can dependably knock the enemy off objectives, drop something scary across the map, and just not die right off the bat. It degrades overtime but the shadowsword even gets to ignore that a bit since anything superheavy it gets a natural bonus to hit. You'll note that this guy made his Vostroyan too, meaning that he had a lot of things he could hit on 2's with that shadowsword, and at worst hit on 4's if the right targets presented themselves. It's not great versus Altaoic but that's what the tank commanders and bullgryn are for.
The shadowsword is essentially the answer to one of guard's most classic weaknesses, the difficulty we have with projecting a lot of force into a small area, especially on the counterattack. Yes a baneblade is pretty big, but it can bring a lot more force to bear per inch it takes up on the table than just about any other combo of units we have. Either you take leman Russe's for firepower but then have no CQC options, or you take bullgryn, with little shooting options, and anything else is going to be too fragile for a true counterattack unit when the chips are down (waves of guardsmen can only do so much to stop something like Magnus when he's in your lines for example)
The shadowsword can kill literally anything your opponent can throw at you, is a great way to take advantage of things like pyskers barriers and negative to hit, and pairs really well with strategems. If I had one I'd probably run it every chance I got. I just picked up an old school baneblade and plan on giving it a spin for similar reasons, but I'd be crazy to not admit that the shadowsword is pretty much the best variant. Don't forget a lot of stuff has the Titanic key word these days, including things that aren't taken in superheavy slots. The shadowsword bonuses come up more than you think. And even against non Titanic units, it'll wound just about anything on 2's, has AP5, and 2d6 damage on a 3d3 main cannon profile. It's a very consistent weapon and can realistically drop just about anything. It's only true weakness is green tide and if I remember right that's exactly what he lost against.
TL;DR I can see why he brought it. In tournament play sometimes you just need a unit that can do whatever and hit like a train.
Why everyone forgets about Hellhammer? :( That 3D6 S10, AP-4, Damage 3, Ignoring Cover (!) cannon makes wonders. Add to that another D3/D6, S10, AP-3, Damage D6 cannon, autocannon, 4 LCs and 30 HB shots... well it's pretty damn scary!
Why everyone forgets about Hellhammer? :( That 3D6 S10, AP-4, Damage 3, Ignoring Cover (!) cannon makes wonders. Add to that another D3/D6, S10, AP-3, Damage D6 cannon, autocannon, 4 LCs and 30 HB shots... well it's pretty damn scary!
It's more expensive than baneblade which has -3 which is generally mostly enough and S10 isn't that big boost. Not many T5 targets generally you'll shoot.
Albeit if you can afford the upgrade fine but often points better spent elsewhere in competive enviroment.
It's more expensive than baneblade which has -3 which is generally mostly enough and S10 isn't that big boost. Not many T5 targets generally you'll shoot.
It seems you do not play a lot against DG, do you?
And considering the amount of cover on the tables, AP-4 + Ignores Cover most of the time equals AP-5 that is a pretty big deal (TEQ in cover will roll 4+ against Baneblade but only 6+ against Hellhammer).
rhinoceraids wrote: How are people liking Hellhounds? Im surprised I never have used them before but I think ill take 2x in a brigade.
Just a quick tip for Hellhounds - Take Track Guards!
Fairly cheap upgrade and a Hellhound can function to full capability even when down to one wound... and it makes it easier to drive one into the opponents battleline when they're about to explode!
It's more expensive than baneblade which has -3 which is generally mostly enough and S10 isn't that big boost. Not many T5 targets generally you'll shoot.
It seems you do not play a lot against DG, do you?
And considering the amount of cover on the tables, AP-4 + Ignores Cover most of the time equals AP-5 that is a pretty big deal (TEQ in cover will roll 4+ against Baneblade but only 6+ against Hellhammer).
Yeah not much. But 1 army is not that much to deal in tournaments.
And with 8th ed terrain rules ignore cover is pretty much irrelevant. Especially as those are firing often against vehicles. I don't even remember when I last time had vehicle in cover. Having to traverse for example wall up and down(so 3" wall is 6" speed bump), be inside terrain AND have 50% obscurred...Even infantry often enough doesn't get cover since whole bloody squad needs to be in it.
And with 8th ed terrain rules ignore cover is pretty much irrelevant. Especially as those are firing often against vehicles.
It seems your meta is quite different from ours. Vehicles do not bother me at all: the most common of them is Rhino and it is rarely a primary target. Only IG can field enough heavy tanks to make it difficult to deal with them but I am the only IG player in the city so this is not relevant. But infantry is a problem. And they are ALWAYS in cover. Reapers, Havocs, Obliterators, Death Company (in brief moments when they are out of charge) etc. And other units like Necron Destroyers for example. That is where Hellhammer Cannon in immeasurably valuable -- it can clear infantry in cover (even elite multi-wound infantry) like nothing else.
rhinoceraids wrote: How are people liking Hellhounds? Im surprised I never have used them before but I think ill take 2x in a brigade.
Just a quick tip for Hellhounds - Take Track Guards!
Fairly cheap upgrade and a Hellhound can function to full capability even when down to one wound... and it makes it easier to drive one into the opponents battleline when they're about to explode!
I like to use two Hellhounds with Inferno cannons and hull heavy flamers in a 2000 point list. I laughed when I saw your post about track guards because I decided yesterday to add them to my models. Being able to move the full 12" is doubly valuable for Hellhounds so that they can get close enough to shoot their flame weapons and also to get close enough to the enemy to hurt him if the Hellhound explodes.
It's trivial to blam a single Imperial Guard superheavy to uselessness in 1 turn, so unless it's Tallarn, don't bother. I suspect the reason the Shadowsword did so well in the tournament is because BLAMing the shadowsword meant that the 4 Tank Commanders and Pask were unharmed and could BLAM right back (or alternatively that aforementioned Russes drew fire that was reserved for the Shadowsword).
So do y'all feel that Guard are still dominant after everyone got their codexes? Or did we get left behind or are we still pretty damned good, just not OP.
At my local meta, I've found that I'm still competitive, just not steamrolling as much.
It's trivial to blam a single Imperial Guard superheavy to uselessness in 1 turn, so unless it's Tallarn, don't bother.
Obviously casual metas can be different but from a competitive perspective this cannot be reinforced enough.
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deltaKshatriya wrote: So do y'all feel that Guard are still dominant after everyone got their codexes?
In a mono-Codex environment Guard would still be top or very close to it with many good matchups and a few challenging ones. In the current soup world Guard is a very useful Imperium component but heavy Guard is more of a gatekeeper list than a tournament winner.
deltaKshatriya wrote: So do y'all feel that Guard are still dominant after everyone got their codexes? Or did we get left behind or are we still pretty damned good, just not OP.
At my local meta, I've found that I'm still competitive, just not steamrolling as much.
Depends on the tournament pack if its swiss probably good if its ETC style 20-0 your probably medium.
We survive well certainly and its easy to consistently win by holding objectives. What ive found is we are not so good at smashing an opponent for 20pts 11 -14pt wins arn't good enough to place at events
I’ve an ITC tournament of Saturday. Currently in my AM brigade I have 2 Artemia hellhounds and one squad of 7 rough riders with 2 plasma guns. I’m torn between replacing the rough riders with another artmia hellhound Or leaving it as it is(there’s only one point difference). Hellhounds are tougher but the rough riders will help me get recon secondary points. One point to note is that the Artemia hellhounds can’t be given track guards so can lose mobility.
I finally gave in and decided to add a battalion of AM to my Marine lists for CP, had a couple questions since I haven't used them since 5th and don't have the 8th codex yet:
1. Doctrines - I know for 30 screen infantry it's not a big deal either way, but is Catachan the best? If my figures are the generic Cadian style armor, can I use Catachan rules (like how custom paint Marines can claim chapters), or do I need official muscled bandana figures?
2. What HQ? I figure 1 Commander is a given for a cheap guy to hide with the Aquila. I was first thinking I'd take a Primaris as the 2nd for a cheap smite+deny, but I notice most lists seem to use a 2nd Commander instead. Is 16pts not worth it? Do I really want that order giver?
3. Is there anything else I should really consider adding in? I know mortars are cheap, but anti infantry is probably what I need least given my army has a lot of Aggressors. Is only 1-2 basilisks or similar worth considering?
If you wanted another cheap smite and deny, use a 30pt astropath with the psychic maelstrom power. It's really useful as it can be used to target characters.
DoomMouse wrote: If you wanted another cheap smite and deny, use a 30pt astropath with the psychic maelstrom power. It's really useful as it can be used to target characters.
Hmm, that's not bad. Seems to average about 1 mortal wound vs 1.4 for 2nd Primaris smite, but 10pts cheaper and target-able, I will definitely consider it. Only shame is dropping an Aggressor for it. Mortals would help fill my biggest weakness, Custodes bike types and superheavies, but boltstorm/mortar team mass rolls is so much more generally useful.
And that new post on picking a regiment seems to answer my modeling question. I can't go official <Catachan> without the muscled dudes, but I could go <Catachann> using the generic dudes as long as I don't take named characters, which I did not plan to. I might still go Cadia for mortar rerolls, but I'm assuming my infantry will generally be moving to screen my marine units and get slightly more from +1S when charged than reroll 1s when still.
And that new post on picking a regiment seems to answer my modeling question. I can't go official <Catachan> without the muscled dudes, but I could go <Catachann> using the generic dudes as long as I don't take named characters, which I did not plan to. I might still go Cadia for mortar rerolls, but I'm assuming my infantry will generally be moving to screen my marine units and get slightly more from +1S when charged than reroll 1s when still.
You absolutely can go <catachan> with cadian figures and still take named characters, you just have to be clear to your opponent before the battle who is which character. Yea it's better to get the "official" model for the named characters, but I know local tournaments out of my nearest GW store allowed custom built figures (with GW parts obviously) to be used as Creed/Straken.
Anyone running SWS? I am thinking of adding 2 squads with 2x plasma and a demo charge. Comes out to 43 points, I could also add a platoon commander to give them rerolls of 1. It would be a small unit that can pack a punch.
I would either put them in taurox with platoon commanders or taurox primes with gatling/hsvg.
bort wrote: I might still go Cadia for mortar rerolls, but I'm assuming my infantry will generally be moving to screen my marine units and get slightly more from +1S when charged than reroll 1s when still.
It will make no difference at all. Guardsmen die like flies and are usually literally taken into the list to die (instead of something more valuable). If they are charged with anything decent in melee they are wiped out before they can strike back and even if they charge themselves their damage output is pathetic. If you want to advance your troops then just give them Tallarn doctrine and throw in some special weapons to shoot. Or better leave them in your deployment zone as backfield objective holders and do not bother moving them out.
Recently got an extended budget for miniatures and one of things I wanted was to expand my army with some IG heavy support( I mainly play GK and the only "heavy" things i have are venerable dread and a GMDK). I have budget for either 1 Shadowsword, or 3 Leman Russes though I dunno which would be better, any more experienced IG player could says which would be a better purchase?
Also if if I go the Russ route, is it optimal better to field them in a spearhead detachment (Pask and 3 Russes, I already own a Leman Russ) or the slightly point wise cheaper but more elite supreme command detachment (Pask and 2 Tank Commander).
Also if if I go the Russ route, is it optimal better to field them in a spearhead detachment (Pask and 3 Russes, I already own a Leman Russ) or the slightly point wise cheaper but more elite supreme command detachment (Pask and 3 Tank Commander).
I for myself prefer Tank Commanders. They are so much better than regular Russes that I can not force myself into not taking them. Lone Commander or Pask will be a HUGE fire magnet and probably die turn 1 leaving other Russes without orders and orders ARE important in IG army.
And that new post on picking a regiment seems to answer my modeling question. I can't go official <Catachan> without the muscled dudes, but I could go <Catachann> using the generic dudes as long as I don't take named characters, which I did not plan to. I might still go Cadia for mortar rerolls, but I'm assuming my infantry will generally be moving to screen my marine units and get slightly more from +1S when charged than reroll 1s when still.
You absolutely can go <catachan> with cadian figures and still take named characters, you just have to be clear to your opponent before the battle who is which character. Yea it's better to get the "official" model for the named characters, but I know local tournaments out of my nearest GW store allowed custom built figures (with GW parts obviously) to be used as Creed/Straken.
Running those Cadian models as Catachan is silly. It's also pointless considering Cadia is a better doctrine overall unless your specifically trying to run a staken/priest list or running combat officers. If your playing a marine list and farming CP's and looking to screen/spam morters, just take cadia they do it better anyway, and it definitely will look better on the table and come across less gamey. Claiming catachan is the same as the paint scheme on marines is a bit of a stretch, it's more like playing your black legion as death guard because you like disgustingly resilient. Catachan is an odd regiment, they used to have their own book because they are so different.
UMGuy wrote: Anyone running SWS? I am thinking of adding 2 squads with 2x plasma and a demo charge. Comes out to 43 points, I could also add a platoon commander to give them rerolls of 1. It would be a small unit that can pack a punch.
I would either put them in taurox with platoon commanders or taurox primes with gatling/hsvg.
Are you using the index rules for your detachment instead of the codex? Or is there another way to get access to the demo charge?
I occassionally use SWS for snipers in my Cadian army. The unit only costs 30 points.
Won another tournament yesterday vs Chaos, Tau and Eldar (With flyer wing)
1500 pts.
Pask, BC, PC, LC TC, BC, LC
3 inf squads
6 Bullgryn (2 with brute shields)
Astropath with Barrier
Priest
2x Hell hounds with track guards
Hydra
Manticore
Wyvern.
At the end of the final game eldar player just had his warlord.
I had everything but a squad of infantry and the wyvern.
And I technically ended up losing because we were"Out of time" And my oppenent wanted to finish the game. Cool. Gave him the win. Asked to finish the game after and he failed his psychic phase and I didnt move because I was on 2 Defend X objectives and I won. Took 30 seconds
Bit salty. But everybody there knew I won.
Hellhounds are amazing for map control. My new fav unit.
UMGuy wrote: Anyone running SWS? I am thinking of adding 2 squads with 2x plasma and a demo charge. Comes out to 43 points, I could also add a platoon commander to give them rerolls of 1. It would be a small unit that can pack a punch.
I would either put them in taurox with platoon commanders or taurox primes with gatling/hsvg.
Are you using the index rules for your detachment instead of the codex? Or is there another way to get access to the demo charge?
I occassionally use SWS for snipers in my Cadian army. The unit only costs 30 points.
If option exists in index it is 100% legal to use in the army regardless of what is or is not in codex
And that new post on picking a regiment seems to answer my modeling question. I can't go official <Catachan> without the muscled dudes, but I could go <Catachann> using the generic dudes as long as I don't take named characters, which I did not plan to. I might still go Cadia for mortar rerolls, but I'm assuming my infantry will generally be moving to screen my marine units and get slightly more from +1S when charged than reroll 1s when still.
You absolutely can go <catachan> with cadian figures and still take named characters, you just have to be clear to your opponent before the battle who is which character. Yea it's better to get the "official" model for the named characters, but I know local tournaments out of my nearest GW store allowed custom built figures (with GW parts obviously) to be used as Creed/Straken.
Running those Cadian models as Catachan is silly. It's also pointless considering Cadia is a better doctrine overall unless your specifically trying to run a staken/priest list or running combat officers. If your playing a marine list and farming CP's and looking to screen/spam morters, just take cadia they do it better anyway, and it definitely will look better on the table and come across less gamey. Claiming catachan is the same as the paint scheme on marines is a bit of a stretch, it's more like playing your black legion as death guard because you like disgustingly resilient. Catachan is an odd regiment, they used to have their own book because they are so different.
IMO, your opinion is much more silly. You can use whatever lore you want and paint your models however you want. You can use catachan rules to represent your own custom regiment whose background matches the in-game bonuses of the Catachans. Or people might not like/have access to the old catachan troops.
Plus, Catachan regiment bonuses are very competitive and pretty on par with Cadia. D6 vehicle weapon re-rolls are great on hellhounds and russes, two of the strongest units in the AM codex- with tank orders/harker they're neck and neck with Cadia, with catachan coming out ahead when moving.
tneva82 wrote: If option exists in index it is 100% legal to use in the army regardless of what is or is not in codex
It may be legal in your gaming group but not in others. There are many groups and tournaments that require players to use the most current datasheet. For SWS, this means they use the codex datasheet which does not allow demo charges.
GW has left this question as a hanging chad with no clear RAW answer.
Codex datasheet, index options. That's legal. Now albeit if your tournament house rules differently that's one thing but you can't factor in every house rule. Some tournaments house rule super heavies out. Should one not get super heavies because you MIGHT run into such tournament?
tneva82 wrote: If option exists in index it is 100% legal to use in the army regardless of what is or is not in codex
It may be legal in your gaming group but not in others. There are many groups and tournaments that require players to use the most current datasheet. For SWS, this means they use the codex datasheet which does not allow demo charges.
GW has left this question as a hanging chad with no clear RAW answer.
Edit: Personally, I like demo charges in SWS.
This is incorrect. GW have FAQed that you can use the index options if you wish to take a unit that has a weapon option that does not appear in the codex datasheet. It's tournament legal as well. They even made a nifty flowchart about it too, and I'm seriously scratching my head over why people are still getting this wrong.
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Red Corsair wrote: Claiming catachan is the same as the paint scheme on marines is a bit of a stretch, it's more like playing your black legion as death guard because you like disgustingly resilient. Catachan is an odd regiment, they used to have their own book because they are so different.
I would agree with you if you were actually claiming your troopers to be ACTUAL catachans, however many guard players have their own custom regiments that have their own ways of fighting that might be more similar to catachans, even if they use cadian models. For example, my regiment uses the <VALHALLAN> keyword because the valhallan combat doctrines fit their backstory and war methodologies very well. However, I do not ever claim they are valhallans, they are just using valhallan rules, and I would be very miffed if my opponent tried to make the argument that in order to utilize the valhallan keyword, I needed an entire army of the old metal valhallan figurines that look horrible, cost an arm and a leg, and are extremely difficult to obtain.
Your argument is analogous to saying that making up your own space marine chapter which is a blood angels successor that uses blood angels rules shouldn't be allowed because you are trying to use vanilla marine models instead of using proper blood angels figurines or blood angels iconography.
tneva82 wrote: If option exists in index it is 100% legal to use in the army regardless of what is or is not in codex
It may be legal in your gaming group but not in others. There are many groups and tournaments that require players to use the most current datasheet. For SWS, this means they use the codex datasheet which does not allow demo charges.
GW has left this question as a hanging chad with no clear RAW answer.
Edit: Personally, I like demo charges in SWS.
This is incorrect. GW have FAQed that you can use the index options if you wish to take a unit that has a weapon option that does not appear in the codex datasheet. It's tournament legal as well. They even made a nifty flowchart about it too, and I'm seriously scratching my head over why people are still getting this wrong.
I would agree with you if you were actually claiming your troopers to be ACTUAL catachans, however many guard players have their own custom regiments that have their own ways of fighting that might be more similar to catachans, even if they use cadian models. For example, my regiment uses the <VALHALLAN> keyword because the valhallan combat doctrines fit their backstory and war methodologies very well. However, I do not ever claim they are valhallans, they are just using valhallan rules, and I would be very miffed if my opponent tried to make the argument that in order to utilize the valhallan keyword, I needed an entire army of the old metal valhallan figurines that look horrible, cost an arm and a leg, and are extremely difficult to obtain.
Hey buddy, let's not besmirch the fine Valhallan models some us use proudly. The basic squad is only 6 bucks different from the Cadian box now too. But I agree with the sentiment. If my custom regiment wants to use Valhallan models but using the Cadian doctrine, that's my business. It only becomes problematic if you bring a mix of regiments and use Cadian rules for Valhallans, Valhallan rules for Cadians and the Catachans are actually Vostroyans. I get a little miffed when people bring everything in the same paint scheme, but the tanks are actually Cadians, the artillery is Catachans and the conscripts are Valhallans. Pick a lane man...although I do understand that if you're playing competitively that's what you need to do.
Any thoughts on the best artillery? I like running heavily armored lists and have plenty of russes and chimeras, but my artillery is lacking (currently only have a single manticore). Is there a generally accepted go-to artillery piece (want to avoid FW rules if possible)? Primarily playing against, orks, tyranids, MEQ, CSM
Well if your avoiding FW and already have 1 manticore...your choices are basilisk and Wyvern (death strike is only for fluff)... basilisks are much better especially if you catachsn or cadia.
Billagio wrote: Any thoughts on the best artillery? I like running heavily armored lists and have plenty of russes and chimeras, but my artillery is lacking (currently only have a single manticore). Is there a generally accepted go-to artillery piece (want to avoid FW rules if possible)? Primarily playing against, orks, tyranids, MEQ, CSM
Basilisk is pretty much always most efficient choise unless you face T9+ or T5 stuff
Hey buddy, let's not besmirch the fine Valhallan models some us use proudly. The basic squad is only 6 bucks different from the Cadian box now too. But I agree with the sentiment. If my custom regiment wants to use Valhallan models but using the Cadian doctrine, that's my business. It only becomes problematic if you bring a mix of regiments and use Cadian rules for Valhallans, Valhallan rules for Cadians and the Catachans are actually Vostroyans. I get a little miffed when people bring everything in the same paint scheme, but the tanks are actually Cadians, the artillery is Catachans and the conscripts are Valhallans. Pick a lane man...although I do understand that if you're playing competitively that's what you need to do.
A squad of valhallans costs 50$, whereas a squad of cadians costs 35$ where I live. Maybe I exaggerated a bit when I said an arm and a leg but it is a marked increase.
Although I completely agree with you about people who paint everything the same and then try to claim multiple regiments for different detachments. These are the same type of people who then usually get "confused" about which models are from what regiment and try to give their army multiple different regimental traits. If they painted all their stuff different colors I wouldn't mind as much because it would be pretty fluffy then (different regiments fight alongside each other all of the time), and easy to tell which is which.
gungo wrote: Well if your avoiding FW and already have 1 manticore...your choices are basilisk and Wyvern (death strike is only for fluff)... basilisks are much better especially if you catachsn or cadia.
Billagio wrote: Any thoughts on the best artillery? I like running heavily armored lists and have plenty of russes and chimeras, but my artillery is lacking (currently only have a single manticore). Is there a generally accepted go-to artillery piece (want to avoid FW rules if possible)? Primarily playing against, orks, tyranids, MEQ, CSM
Basilisk is pretty much always most efficient choise unless you face T9+ or T5 stuff
Well, The Manticore wounds toughness 5 on a 2+ unlike the Basilisk - seems more efficient not to mention the number of shots that get pumped out t1-t4 being much higher. I'd probably max out manticores points allowing.
Billagio wrote: Any thoughts on the best artillery? I like running heavily armored lists and have plenty of russes and chimeras, but my artillery is lacking (currently only have a single manticore). Is there a generally accepted go-to artillery piece (want to avoid FW rules if possible)? Primarily playing against, orks, tyranids, MEQ, CSM
Basilisk is pretty much always most efficient choise unless you face T9+ or T5 stuff
Well, The Manticore wounds toughness 5 on a 2+ unlike the Basilisk - seems more efficient not to mention the number of shots that get pumped out t1-t4 being much higher. I'd probably max out manticores points allowing.
I specifically said T5 for that.
It shoots more yes but for points difference in shots is miniscular at which point basilisks AP wins over. Remember units don't just have stats but also point costs. Do you want 2 manticore for 14 shots or 3 basilisk for 13.5 shots with better AP and more targets for enemy to destroy?
Billagio wrote: Any thoughts on the best artillery? I like running heavily armored lists and have plenty of russes and chimeras, but my artillery is lacking (currently only have a single manticore). Is there a generally accepted go-to artillery piece (want to avoid FW rules if possible)? Primarily playing against, orks, tyranids, MEQ, CSM
Basilisk is pretty much always most efficient choise unless you face T9+ or T5 stuff
Well, The Manticore wounds toughness 5 on a 2+ unlike the Basilisk - seems more efficient not to mention the number of shots that get pumped out t1-t4 being much higher. I'd probably max out manticores points allowing.
I specifically said T5 for that.
It shoots more yes but for points difference in shots is miniscular at which point basilisks AP wins over. Remember units don't just have stats but also point costs. Do you want 2 manticore for 14 shots or 3 basilisk for 13.5 shots with better AP and more targets for enemy to destroy?
Sorry that was unclear - I meant to say whilst T9 is certainly niche, T5 is common and not a niche situation. There are also other factors in play - 2 Manticores are easier to hide out of LOS, have a higher toughness and don't have a long barrel poking around and an obnoxiously large gun shield that enemy units can draw LOS to. Also, is the math for 14 and 13.5 shots correct? If we are considering both the cadian doctrine and catachan doctrine I'd expect the hit difference to be more in the Manticore's favour than 0.5. Fair point re AP.
Yes T9 is niche but better AP will have more chance of being useful in targets to shoot than S10. I find manticore bounce off from vehicles annoyingly lot. And not many T5 low save stuff running around here. Plenty of T7 3+ or something with 2+ save though.
You're focusing too much on average shots. You need to look at the full range of possibilities and also the potential max damage the unit can put out. A Manticore on a hot run of dice will do significantly more damage than a Basilisk with s similar set of rolls.
Yes, 7 is the average value, but there's only a 16% chance of actually getting a 7. Meanwhile there's something like a 40% chance at getting above a 7. Any result of 5 or lower can be helpef with a CP reroll.
The Manticore also synergizes better with VfC Stratagem by virtue of hitting harder as a single unit than a Basilisk.
You concentrate on luck. I could say imagine damage 50 grots can do with hot run of dice! 50 over manticores 12*3=36 max damage! I'm interested what I'm likely to do. Not what I can do once in a blue moon.
And yes there's chance of rolling over 7. Equally good chance of rolling under it though. For every roll of 12 you will roll 2. Basilisk at least is less swingy so apart from often more damage average also less hurt by bad luck.,
In terms of the Manticore vs Basilisk debate, I will say that one thing hasn't really been mentioned: - Alpha striking / packing in a single very strong round of shooting to eliminate the biggest threats.
Personally, I believe that when using overlapping fields of fire and relic of lost cadia, an artillery park would benefit more from the sheer potential volume of shots from Manticore when coupled with a command re-roll.
Hey buddy, let's not besmirch the fine Valhallan models some us use proudly. The basic squad is only 6 bucks different from the Cadian box now too. But I agree with the sentiment. If my custom regiment wants to use Valhallan models but using the Cadian doctrine, that's my business. It only becomes problematic if you bring a mix of regiments and use Cadian rules for Valhallans, Valhallan rules for Cadians and the Catachans are actually Vostroyans. I get a little miffed when people bring everything in the same paint scheme, but the tanks are actually Cadians, the artillery is Catachans and the conscripts are Valhallans. Pick a lane man...although I do understand that if you're playing competitively that's what you need to do.
A squad of valhallans costs 50$, whereas a squad of cadians costs 35$ where I live. Maybe I exaggerated a bit when I said an arm and a leg but it is a marked increase.
Although I completely agree with you about people who paint everything the same and then try to claim multiple regiments for different detachments. These are the same type of people who then usually get "confused" about which models are from what regiment and try to give their army multiple different regimental traits. If they painted all their stuff different colors I wouldn't mind as much because it would be pretty fluffy then (different regiments fight alongside each other all of the time), and easy to tell which is which.
Naix wrote: In terms of the Manticore vs Basilisk debate, I will say that one thing hasn't really been mentioned: - Alpha striking / packing in a single very strong round of shooting to eliminate the biggest threats.
Personally, I believe that when using overlapping fields of fire and relic of lost cadia, an artillery park would benefit more from the sheer potential volume of shots from Manticore when coupled with a command re-roll.
Interesting, because I look at the 3 basilisk vs 2 manticore comparison a little differently. Basilisks can be lumped into the same unit, making buffs like "Vengeance for Cadia" or psyker powers impact the whole unit instead of just 1 of 2 manticores.
Naix wrote: In terms of the Manticore vs Basilisk debate, I will say that one thing hasn't really been mentioned: - Alpha striking / packing in a single very strong round of shooting to eliminate the biggest threats.
Personally, I believe that when using overlapping fields of fire and relic of lost cadia, an artillery park would benefit more from the sheer potential volume of shots from Manticore when coupled with a command re-roll.
Interesting, because I look at the 3 basilisk vs 2 manticore comparison a little differently. Basilisks can be lumped into the same unit, making buffs like "Vengeance for Cadia" or psyker powers impact the whole unit instead of just 1 of 2 manticores.
They are deployed as one unit, but act as separate units once the battle starts, it says this in their datasheets - unless you're talking about the Forgeworld ones, I don't have the rules for them. Buffs that affect a single unit, will not affect multiple basilisks in a squadron.
I have played against it a couple of times. It is a nuisance but it does not kill much even with help like the priest buff (S3 hurts badly), is vulnerable to denial and provides a good target for mortal wound generation as opposed to saturating with bad targets.
I can certainly see lots of fun/theme/situational uses but they are a tough sell to me for something more competitive.
IVIOOSE wrote: What are peoples thoughts on crusaders with a 2++ for tieing up tougher to kill units midboard and in general just being a nuisance
I use a full squad of 10 along with a priest and an acolyte. It's 215 points which is a huge point sink. I have had a lot of fun playing the unit and it does distract my opponents, but you have to pay a lot of attention to how you deploy, move, and charge this unit as well as remember Acts of Faith and the Psychic Barrier. I like it but I think most guard players will struggle to get value out of this combination. You also have to be very aware of your opponent's capability to generate mortal wounds.
About that Manticore vs Basilisk argument: I've done a spreadsheet to calculate damage output and cost per wound for a LRBT, Manticore and Basilisk using Catachan doctrine (or Cadian order in case of LRBT) to re-roll amount of shots made. I assume that you will re-roll any result of 1 or 2 and keep 3+. We re-roll only one dice for Manticore of course. It gives us an average of 7,7 shots from Manticore and 5 shots from Basilisk.
Against T4, 3+ save we pay 33.6 points for a wound in case of Manticore and 31.2 for Basilisk.
Against T5, 3+ -- 33.6 and 38.9 respectively.
T4, 2+ -- 44.8 vs 38.9 (+1 AP for Basilisk comes into play).
T5, 2+ -- 44.8 vs 48.6 (but being able to wound T5 at 2+ is still cool).
T7, 3+ -- 42.0 vs 38.9.
I would agree with you if you were actually claiming your troopers to be ACTUAL catachans, however many guard players have their own custom regiments that have their own ways of fighting that might be more similar to catachans, even if they use cadian models. For example, my regiment uses the <VALHALLAN> keyword because the valhallan combat doctrines fit their backstory and war methodologies very well. However, I do not ever claim they are valhallans, they are just using valhallan rules, and I would be very miffed if my opponent tried to make the argument that in order to utilize the valhallan keyword, I needed an entire army of the old metal valhallan figurines that look horrible, cost an arm and a leg, and are extremely difficult to obtain.
Hey buddy, let's not besmirch the fine Valhallan models some us use proudly. The basic squad is only 6 bucks different from the Cadian box now too. But I agree with the sentiment. If my custom regiment wants to use Valhallan models but using the Cadian doctrine, that's my business. It only becomes problematic if you bring a mix of regiments and use Cadian rules for Valhallans, Valhallan rules for Cadians and the Catachans are actually Vostroyans. I get a little miffed when people bring everything in the same paint scheme, but the tanks are actually Cadians, the artillery is Catachans and the conscripts are Valhallans. Pick a lane man...although I do understand that if you're playing competitively that's what you need to do.
I should have been more clear that this is more what bugs me. If you paint and model your army with a certain idea in mind or get bored from your regiment from playing it week in and week out thats one thing. What drives me nuts are when folks take advantage of that sentiment and field a hodge podge of whatever is strongest that month and never made or will make any effort in trying make the experience better for their opponent. The person I was responding to was talking about buying into guard as a CP farm/screen, maybe he has plans whatever but it sounded like it was for competitive reasons, to which I was suggesting he simply use the Cadian doctrine since it is better for those reasons and is far less confusing.
Weird, last time I checked they were 50$, must be a sale or something.
No it definitely isn't. What changed was back before they gave you 20 cadians per box, they then halved the contents. It's been this way for a while. The Cadians are also garbage sculpts compare to the old metal lines, personally I'd buy up as many of those old regiments as I could if I were a new player but that's just me. Sure they are metal, but they also need zero assembly and are WAY easier to paint.
So I've been running Solar Macharius as my infantry (Mordian army) warlord now, and I'm struggling to find the right rules to fit him, even just equipment. Original rules were:
Bolt Pistol, Power Sword, Laurel's of Command, Grand Strategist
Equipment seems meh, but feels like the Master Strategist he is
2) Company Commander
Bolt Pistol, Power Sword, Deathmask of Ollanius, Grand Strategist
Better equipment feel, but not a good enough commander
3) Lord Commissar
Bolt Pistol, Blade of Conquest, Master of Command
This one feels like the best equipped (Carapace, Force Field, Actual Macharian Powersword,) LD bubble, and re-roll Morale being a commissar, but doesn't feel like the leader of men he should be, though he can issue orders to basically any model.
Any suggestions or things I may have missed? I know he'll never be what he used to be, but I'd like to be as close to the fluff as possible.
No it definitely isn't. What changed was back before they gave you 20 cadians per box, they then halved the contents. It's been this way for a while. The Cadians are also garbage sculpts compare to the old metal lines, personally I'd buy up as many of those old regiments as I could if I were a new player but that's just me. Sure they are metal, but they also need zero assembly and are WAY easier to paint.
The great thing about metal models is that they retain their value as well. If someone is selling metal models, I'm willing to pay full price if they "assembled" (perhaps even increasing price as they become rare). For plastic models, if it's not on sprue, I'm probably not interested.
Alpharius Walks wrote: The Lord Commissar would be the most appropriate of the options presented.
Yeah I agree with this one. He can fight like Macharius and still play the giving orders game as well as giving an aura of using his leadership. He ticks all the marks to some level. You could also just give the company commander the master crafted power sword as well and he would check the fighting box a bit better as well as being able to issue up to three orders as opposed to one. If he somehow survives a full enemy turn of combat he could order himself to fight in the shooting phase which would be funny.
But yeah overall I say go with the Commissar idea. He has all the bases covered and a commissar issuing orders is pretty cool.
Hey all, I was going to take a small allied Guard detachment with my Genecult and I was curious about a bullgryn squad to maybe give my opponent some target choices, plus I want to model them as thinly disguised abberants.
What’s the preferred loadout and delivery method? Mauls and slabshields? 3 with a priest in a chimera, or 5-6 advancing up the board?
I know this has probably been discussed before, but what is the best baneblade variant? Im guessing Baneblade/Shadowsword still? Are they still worth bringing?
Billagio wrote: I know this has probably been discussed before, but what is the best baneblade variant? Im guessing Baneblade/Shadowsword still? Are they still worth bringing?
Shadowsword for anti-vehicle, Stormlord for anti-infantry or if you want a transport, Baneblade if you want a mix of anti-infantry and anti-vehicle firepower. Those are the only three variants worth taking, as the rest are kind of lackluster in comparison. I personally think the Shadowsword is the best out of those three because it absolutely reaches out and deletes one thing a turn with its volcano cannon no matter what it is (including enemy LOW) and it is somewhat cheaper than a regular Baneblade due to not having to take an autocannon and demolisher cannon.
Billagio wrote: I know this has probably been discussed before, but what is the best baneblade variant? Im guessing Baneblade/Shadowsword still? Are they still worth bringing?
Shadowsword for anti-vehicle, Stormlord for anti-infantry or if you want a transport, Baneblade if you want a mix of anti-infantry and anti-vehicle firepower. Those are the only three variants worth taking, as the rest are kind of lackluster in comparison. I personally think the Shadowsword is the best out of those three because it absolutely reaches out and deletes one thing a turn with its volcano cannon no matter what it is (including enemy LOW) and it is somewhat cheaper than a regular Baneblade due to not having to take an autocannon and demolisher cannon.
Thats what I kind of was figuring too, but the stormlord didnt really catch my attention. Only 20 shots, half of which will hit doesnt seem that great since we have lots of anti-infantry options. Is the Shadowsword/baneblade worth taking in your standard gunline list?
Going with a super heavy kind of requires you to build your list around it since it's such a large portion of your list.
Consider if you're playing with friends or a more competitive area. Your friends will probably not be thrilled.
If it's a competitive list you need to probably realize that if your opponent can manage something like, what, 12 wounds to it it'll be hitting on 5s? I've seen Baneblades deleted or at least severely crippled in the first round of shooting many times in this edition.
I did recently play a super heavy list with a Macharius Vulcan, Shadowsword, and a Banehammer with everything else designed for support. I called it the friendship ender.
Colonel Cross wrote: Going with a super heavy kind of requires you to build your list around it since it's such a large portion of your list.
Consider if you're playing with friends or a more competitive area. Your friends will probably not be thrilled.
If it's a competitive list you need to probably realize that if your opponent can manage something like, what, 12 wounds to it it'll be hitting on 5s? I've seen Baneblades deleted or at least severely crippled in the first round of shooting many times in this edition.
I did recently play a super heavy list with a Macharius Vulcan, Shadowsword, and a Banehammer with everything else designed for support. I called it the friendship ender.
I ran a list with a valhallan shadowsword in a sup com detachment. Valhallan doctrine makes them so much more tough, it takes 20 wounds before they degrade. It was amazing.
Billagio wrote: I know this has probably been discussed before, but what is the best baneblade variant? Im guessing Baneblade/Shadowsword still? Are they still worth bringing?
You better try them yourself (by using proxy model for example) because different people have different preferences, game styles and play in different communities. For example, a lot of people at this forum like Shadowswords but I see them as almost useless (though I have one and like its appearance). I personally think Hellhammer is the best, but again, many people strongly disagree. At least everyone agrees that Baneblade is good -- it is now a real workhorse, though it is not considered "the best of the best".
Or just magnetize your kit and do an "Octoblade". It will let you experiment and always have a Superheavy you need.
Quick little review of something we've passed over: The Malcador/Minotaur combo. I've been running this lately - I can fit a battalion of Imperial Guard, 3 Minotaurs, and a Spearhead with 3 Malcadors (including one Annihilator) in it with 70 points of dead space still to spend (usually, in my case, a techpriest and an astrotelepath).
The main thing is it's similar to my superheavy list, in that it overloads the enemy with T8 3+ wounds... but holy hell is it overloading. 56 wounds from the Malcadors, 66 wounds from the Minotaurs = 122 T8 3+ wounds, plus you still get 30 guardsmen with orders.
The screens are fairly weak, but I've considered it less important since the FAQ, and the firepower of the Malcadors doesn't measure up to the Russ. But I've played against Russ spam lists, and the sheer brutalizing firepower of the Minotaurs combined with the great durability of the Malcadors (and of course the Minos themselves) has given me the turns I need of hammering away with the big guns on the Minotaurs.
Worst part is I'm running Tallarn because I like being able to move - and one of the advantages of the Malcador over the Russ is the ability to move 10" and still fire to full effectiveness, if it's Tallarn. A Tallarn Tank Commander can achieve a similar effect with the order, admittedly.
Lastly, the third advantage of the Malcador is it's true heavy tank firepower. Now, don't get me wrong - the main gun is atrociously bad compared to the Russ, being literally the same gun with 50% fewer shots. But the sponson and hull guns - whoopee! My Annihilator has a twin lascannon and a demolisher cannon, a pintle stubber, and sponson stubbers, though they could be magnitized for lascannons. For about twice the price of a Leman Russ, it has 9 anti infantry shots, d3/d6 dual-purpose shots, and two lascannon shots. It's actually fairly impressive.
More impressive in the secondary armament field however are the two other basic malcadors - 3 lascannons + battlecannon on 1, and 3 autocannons + battlecannon on the other. The battle cannon may only fire half as many times than the Russ, but the secondary armament damn near matches the firepower of a second Leman Russ by itself, while being more durable and faster for less than the points of two Leman Russes.
Losses are, of course, orders (which is huge), Grinding Advance (so if you want to move you really should be Tallarn), and a few extra wounds compared to a second Russ.
In my opinion, however, the Malcador is very underrated this edition. I used to think it was crap, and got even worse after the Russ came out in the dex with the double-fire grinding advance, but after playing several russ lists with my Malcadors and Minotaurs it's clear to me that the Malcador has a place - even if that place is just absorbing bullets for something more valuable (like a Minotaur) because of its sheer rugged endurance with its 18 wounds.
Looking at guard. I have read this thread since the FAQ drop from late march onward.
I was looking at doing Tallarn Mech Infantry theme. Run around in Chimeras or Taurox with Lehmens. I know most people play gunline cadia, but I like the idea of doing the Blitzkrieg tactics. Tallarn seems best for that with their special orders/traits. Is this viable? Has anyone tried it? What units would be best for this.
Was looking at 2 tanks cmds 4 blobs infantry
3 blobs of mortars
Chimeras or Tauros
Some elite spec weapons or veternas kitted out to ride around
Leman Russ
Probably a vulture with punsher cannon
3x 3 scout Sentinels with the heavy weapons Autocannon and flamers most likely to take advantage of Tallarn Swift as the wind.
So what's the deal with the lost relic of cadia? Has that been faq'd at all? I googled it and people are claiming it's not a single use item, which, after reading the actual text it doesn't explicitly say it is a single use item but it just seems way to OP not to be - especially if your opponent happens to be chaos which we're seeing a lot more of these days.
ah, yep, my bad. Must have glossed over that one. Is it still a useful relic? In my current list I'd have to spend 3CP to get it (already got LOC and Kurov's Aquila)
You have a very high ratio of Orders to infantry, Laurels and no Cadian vehicles. I would probably pass except against Chaos. Rerolling 1s on those Lascannons even if your Laurels rolls fail (assuming you go reroll hits first) might be worth it depending on matchups.
necron99 wrote: ah, yep, my bad. Must have glossed over that one. Is it still a useful relic? In my current list I'd have to spend 3CP to get it (already got LOC and Kurov's Aquila)
It is auto take vs Chaos. Think about it, for TWO extra CP, you are potentially getting dozens of rerolls for a turn.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Lastly, the third advantage of the Malcador is it's true heavy tank firepower. Now, don't get me wrong - the main gun is atrociously bad compared to the Russ, being literally the same gun with 50% fewer shots. But the sponson and hull guns - whoopee! My Annihilator has a twin lascannon and a demolisher cannon, a pintle stubber, and sponson stubbers, though they could be magnitized for lascannons. For about twice the price of a Leman Russ, it has 9 anti infantry shots, d3/d6 dual-purpose shots, and two lascannon shots. It's actually fairly impressive.
It's not impressive, it's utter trash. The twin LC and demolisher cannon are both LRBT turret weapons, so that's roughly equal to firing a single turret weapon twice. The pintle stubber can be taken on either vehicle, so that doesn't count. The two sponson heavy stubbers are worse than the heavy bolter sponsons the LRBT can take, so you're committed to taking lascannons to have any hope of competing. The LRBT can take a single lascannon, so you're left with comparing one lascannon vs. the LRBT's sponson gun options. Is having a lascannon instead of two heavy bolters worth doubling the cost of a model? no. The Malcador pays double the points for a negligible advantage in firepower and a decent improvement in wound count. In any situation where you could have a Malcador a pair of LRBTs will be superior by a large margin.
But I've played against Russ spam lists, and the sheer brutalizing firepower of the Minotaurs combined with the great durability of the Malcadors (and of course the Minos themselves) has given me the turns I need of hammering away with the big guns on the Minotaurs.
Then stop playing against bad players who don't understand target priority? Why would you ever target the Malcadors first? They have a terrible ratio of firepower to durability, targeting pretty much anything else on the table is going to reduce incoming fire faster. Ignore the pathetic Malcadors, kill the Minotuars, and clean up the Malcadors whenever it is convenient. Not that you should be taking Minotaurs anyway. They're a cool model, but Basilisks have much better firepower per point and any durability advantage is marginal when you can hide out of LOS and be entirely immune to attack.
Dynas wrote: Looking at guard. I have read this thread since the FAQ drop from late march onward.
I was looking at doing Tallarn Mech Infantry theme. Run around in Chimeras or Taurox with Lehmens. I know most people play gunline cadia, but I like the idea of doing the Blitzkrieg tactics.
I can't speak for Tallarn (in all honesty I have not tried that doctrine yet) but if you are interested in blitzkrieg you might look into the Catachan Doctrine. Re-rolling variable shot weapons on vehicles makes Hellhounds and flamer-equipped Chimeras nasty. Also the +1 strength boost to infantry is nothing to sneeze at. If I know that my infantry are about to get charged, I'll often charge first instead. Str 4 makes a big difference vs MEQ.
The Valkyrie has some redeemable qualities, but all of the others are from FW and are either neglected or were pointlessly nerfed in Chapter Approved. The real head scratcher is how the twin Punisher Vulture got through that mess unscathed (not that it actually needed a nerf) when it was the one people were panicking over.
Sinful Hero wrote: Hey all, I was going to take a small allied Guard detachment with my Genecult and I was curious about a bullgryn squad to maybe give my opponent some target choices, plus I want to model them as thinly disguised abberants.
What’s the preferred loadout and delivery method? Mauls and slabshields? 3 with a priest in a chimera, or 5-6 advancing up the board?
I've been running 3 alongside Celestine (magical) and a Priest (pretty solid). Without Celestine's save enhancement, I'd be tempted to throw in a brute shield, because someone always seems to be shooting lascannons at them. Other than that, slab shield and maul all the way. They're fun and nasty and dangerous to ingore. Mine killed a Helbrute without breaking a sweat last week. I have a Chimera sitting around half assembled for them, but I haven't tried it yet. It may solve the problem of crossing the table without Celestine, but the jury's out on that one.
Sinful Hero wrote: Hey all, I was going to take a small allied Guard detachment with my Genecult and I was curious about a bullgryn squad to maybe give my opponent some target choices, plus I want to model them as thinly disguised abberants.
What’s the preferred loadout and delivery method? Mauls and slabshields? 3 with a priest in a chimera, or 5-6 advancing up the board?
I've been running 3 alongside Celestine (magical) and a Priest (pretty solid). Without Celestine's save enhancement, I'd be tempted to throw in a brute shield, because someone always seems to be shooting lascannons at them. Other than that, slab shield and maul all the way. They're fun and nasty and dangerous to ingore. Mine killed a Helbrute without breaking a sweat last week. I have a Chimera sitting around half assembled for them, but I haven't tried it yet. It may solve the problem of crossing the table without Celestine, but the jury's out on that one.
Lascannons are AP-3.
Slab Shields give you a 2+, with your base 4+.
Brute Shields, if I remember correctly, only give a 5++.
In other words, Slab Shields and Brute Shields are exactly the same against Lascannons, unless you're in cover, in which case Slab Shields do better.
Sinful Hero wrote: Hey all, I was going to take a small allied Guard detachment with my Genecult and I was curious about a bullgryn squad to maybe give my opponent some target choices, plus I want to model them as thinly disguised abberants.
What’s the preferred loadout and delivery method? Mauls and slabshields? 3 with a priest in a chimera, or 5-6 advancing up the board?
I've been running 3 alongside Celestine (magical) and a Priest (pretty solid). Without Celestine's save enhancement, I'd be tempted to throw in a brute shield, because someone always seems to be shooting lascannons at them. Other than that, slab shield and maul all the way. They're fun and nasty and dangerous to ingore. Mine killed a Helbrute without breaking a sweat last week. I have a Chimera sitting around half assembled for them, but I haven't tried it yet. It may solve the problem of crossing the table without Celestine, but the jury's out on that one.
Lascannons are AP-3.
Slab Shields give you a 2+, with your base 4+.
Brute Shields, if I remember correctly, only give a 5++.
In other words, Slab Shields and Brute Shields are exactly the same against Lascannons, unless you're in cover, in which case Slab Shields do better.
Good point on my bad math... even stronger case for slab shield then.
Was away from book, so that’s my bad. Still-slab shields seem better.
Almost as good agains lascannons, as good in cover, and way better against anything without or with only minor AP.
Main benefits for the brute shields is CQC and the fact that pyschic barrier and take cover stack with them if I remember right. I think there's a way to make them a 2+ invuln, which for Ogryn using shock mauls is no joke.
Billagio wrote: I know this has probably been discussed before, but what is the best baneblade variant? Im guessing Baneblade/Shadowsword still? Are they still worth bringing?
Shadowsword for anti-vehicle, Stormlord for anti-infantry or if you want a transport, Baneblade if you want a mix of anti-infantry and anti-vehicle firepower. Those are the only three variants worth taking, as the rest are kind of lackluster in comparison. I personally think the Shadowsword is the best out of those three because it absolutely reaches out and deletes one thing a turn with its volcano cannon no matter what it is (including enemy LOW) and it is somewhat cheaper than a regular Baneblade due to not having to take an autocannon and demolisher cannon.
For shadowsword is it best to equip with 4x lascannon, 5x heavy bolter and the volcano cannon? Are the other 2ndary weapons worth taking? Also, what about camping a Techpriest Enginseer near him, and an Astropath to cast nightshroud to increase surviability?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Has anyone tried a cheap inf squad with the grenades stratagem and using the Laurels of Command Relic that allows 2 orders. Use Move, Move, Move and Forwards for the Emperor to get within range. Make them voystran for Firstborn pride.
So you are moving 6+6+2x Advance Die. 2 Cp to get +1 to hit and you are throwing Frag Grendades. That 10d6 shots hitting on 3's. Good for horde clearing.
Billagio wrote: I know this has probably been discussed before, but what is the best baneblade variant? Im guessing Baneblade/Shadowsword still? Are they still worth bringing?
Shadowsword for anti-vehicle, Stormlord for anti-infantry or if you want a transport, Baneblade if you want a mix of anti-infantry and anti-vehicle firepower. Those are the only three variants worth taking, as the rest are kind of lackluster in comparison. I personally think the Shadowsword is the best out of those three because it absolutely reaches out and deletes one thing a turn with its volcano cannon no matter what it is (including enemy LOW) and it is somewhat cheaper than a regular Baneblade due to not having to take an autocannon and demolisher cannon.
For shadowsword is it best to equip with 4x lascannon, 5x heavy bolter and the volcano cannon? Are the other 2ndary weapons worth taking? Also, what about camping a Techpriest Enginseer near him, and an Astropath to cast nightshroud to increase surviability?
Lots of people like to load up their Shadowswords, but I prefer not to. You are basically paying normal price for bs4+ lascannons and slightly below normal price for the bolters and flamers (twin HB and Flamer are slightly cheaper than 2 singles), which you can just put on infantry anyway. Unless I know that I'm likely to face titanic units, I don't find it worth it to dump more points into a bullet magnet. I'm content with a 400 point Volcano cannon.
Thats why you nightshroud it for -1 to hit, and you can use Tech Priest to heal D3 every turn. Tank orders can give reroll 1's. Also can use strike and Shroud order if the Nightshroud fails.
Dynas wrote: Thats why you nightshroud it for -1 to hit, and you can use Tech Priest to heal D3 every turn. Tank orders can give reroll 1's. Also can use strike and Shroud order if the Nightshroud fails.
Dynas wrote: Thats why you nightshroud it for -1 to hit, and you can use Tech Priest to heal D3 every turn. Tank orders can give reroll 1's. Also can use strike and Shroud order if the Nightshroud fails.
Tank orders don't work on Baneblades.
Good to know, but it appears the -1 to hit and healing work.
I was looking at trying this as a list, based on my research this would be fairly competitive. Want to figure out my list before I start buying everythign.
Spoiler:
Cadian Brigade
239 Pask, 2x lascannon, 2x HB, Heavy STubber (LR) HQ 217 Tank Cmd, Battle cannon, 2x HB, HB , Stubber (LR); Relic of Lost Cadia HQ 217 Tank Cmd, Battle cannon, 2x HB, HB , Stubber (LR); Kurov Aquila HQ 30 Co Cmd with Laspistol, chainsword, Laurels of Command, warlord: masterful Tactician HQ
47 Sentinel w. Autocannon FA 47 Sentinel w. Autocannon FA 47 Sentinel w. Autocannon FA
16 Commissar w/ Bolt Pistol E
16 Commissar w/ Bolt Pistol E
25 Officer of the Fleet E
30 Astropath, no stave, Nightshroud E
45 Inf Sq, lasguns x8, Vox, sgt with chainsword Las pistol T
45 Inf Sq, lasguns x8, Vox, sgt with chainsword Las pistol T
45 Inf Sq, lasguns x8, Vox, sgt with chainsword Las pistol T
45 Inf Sq, lasguns x8, Vox, sgt with chainsword Las pistol T
45 Inf Sq, lasguns x8, Vox, sgt with chainsword Las pistol T
45 Inf Sq, lasguns x8, Vox, sgt with chainsword Las pistol T
160 Vulture Gunship with Twin Punsher Cannon Flier
-1 to hit isn#t quaranteed and if you go 2nd no help. With that many drops opponent likely gets bonus for first turn.
It's good tank but remember it can be taken out.
And now knight armies can field castellan with 3++ vs volcano cannon and which basically half shots shadowsword with volcano with plasma some more. It's not hopeless especially if you go first but don't count for it for all at firepower
So how bad is the Sabre Defense Platform with a search light? It only gives 1 unit vs 1 enemy unit +1 to hit (might be helpful for above mentioned shadowsword) but still...a loaded up Tank Commander or even a standard LRBT could make serious use of one. CA effectively doubled it's cost though...
necron99 wrote: So how bad is the Sabre Defense Platform with a search light? It only gives 1 unit vs 1 enemy unit +1 to hit (might be helpful for above mentioned shadowsword) but still...a loaded up Tank Commander or even a standard LRBT could make serious use of one. CA effectively doubled it's cost though...
I think it got limited to just an infantry unit somewhere. Only handy with vet plasma or the mordian volley fire stratagem
Well that's too bad :( I don't see the model available anymore so I thought I'd try my hand at designing/printing one or two...is it infantry keyword? If so it could help a HWT of lascannons. That would be nasty maybe. Dunno...
tneva82 wrote: -1 to hit isn#t quaranteed and if you go 2nd no help. With that many drops opponent likely gets bonus for first turn.
It's good tank but remember it can be taken out.
And now knight armies can field castellan with 3++ vs volcano cannon and which basically half shots shadowsword with volcano with plasma some more. It's not hopeless especially if you go first but don't count for it for all at firepower
There is a knight that gets a 3++? That is massively broken.
There is a knight that gets a 3++? That is massively broken.
It's not broken as it's very CP intensive
You can give a knight a relic that takes their invulnerable save to 4++. That costs 1cp unless he is your warlord.
There's then a stratagem that gives a further +1 to your save for the current phase to make the 3++. That costs 1cp for a "regular" knight or 3cp for the new dominus knights
There's no reliable way to give them an invulnerable save in melee.
There is a knight that gets a 3++? That is massively broken.
It's not broken as it's very CP intensive
You can give a knight a relic that takes their invulnerable save to 4++. That costs 1cp unless he is your warlord.
There's then a stratagem that gives a further +1 to your save for the current phase to make the 3++. That costs 1cp for a "regular" knight or 3cp for the new dominus knights
There's no reliable way to give them an invulnerable save in melee.
They have something that gives them a +5 in melee, I believe it's a relic but could be a warlord trait. Either way you'll see it taken on some gallants more than likely, as it covers one of the gallants weaknesses pretty well.
As for a +3 invuln, they have to combo warlord and strat for it. If they go ham making one knight a +3 the rest will be stuck at a +5, aside from possibly a knight with a +2 armor save.
The key to beating a +3 invuln knight would be either hitting it in melee, where it has no invuln, or doing an initial shot or two at it to get him to pop the strat then dump the majority of your fire into another target. Or mortal wounds of course, those work too. Knights will struggle with CP until/unless they get Armigers to count for it again, anything you can do to burn CP is a good idea. Especially since it costs a Dominus knight 3cp to rotate it's shields, even if you don't really shoot it much getting the knight to pop the shields will eat up a major portion of his CP. On the other hand, by not shooting that knight the strategem still did it's job, keeping the knight alive, even if that just meant you had to move on to an easier target.
I've developed an interest in the Lost Relic of Cadia based on the number of people I see running some form of Chaos army in tournaments these days. I mean really, rerolling hits and wounds for a turn with my 4 bassies, two wyverns, tank commander, colossus bombard and host of HWT within 12" of the bearer just seems like an alpha strike made in heaven. What I don't understand is the non-chaos side of the relic. The description says you can rerolls 1s to hit with cadian units. We already do that so where's the upside?
It is hits and wounds. Getting rerolls to wound is unusual for a lot of Guard. It also allows you to move on the turn you use it and retain the rerolls of 1 (situationally useful).
Alpharius Walks wrote: It is hits and wounds. Getting rerolls to wound is unusual for a lot of Guard. It also allows you to move on the turn you use it and retain the rerolls of 1 (situationally useful).
Yeah I got the re-roll of 1 to wound part just couldn't figure out the re-roll 1's to hit but now that makes sense. Yes, it's situational but not completely without it uses...
Just out of curiosity how popular is this relic? I'm paying 1CP to get it (took Laurels of Command also). My current list starts with 14CP before I pay for the extra relic (two battalions and a spearhead battle forged).
Forgive me, but I am still looking into how the guard functions and planning a build for my next army. Just have 4sq shock troops and 2 cmd sq, pysker, reg advisor, commissar for now. Waiting to take the plunge on the tanks, Super heavies, etc...
Can someone clarify these two orders/doctrines and which is better?
Catachan Regimental Doctrine: vehicles reroll 1 dice that determine number of attacks (can this be turret and non turret weapon, like a sponson weapon)? Is this per vehicle or per weapon?
Does this combo with the Catachan Order reroll # of hits for flamers? I know you can't reroll a reroll, but say on Hellhounds the 2d6 Inferno cannon, can I play one order on 1 die, and the Doctrine on the other, to get both?
Cadian Tank order, Reroll dice when determine # of attacks for the main turret weapon. If its 2d6 can i choose to reroll 1 die (say i get a 6,1) or must it be both dice?
Does the Cadain reroll 1's if don't move combo with Grinding Advance so long as the i only move 4.99". Can I still shoot 2x?
Concerning Tallarn, and grinding advance. Can I use that to move 4.99" and then move 6" prior to my shooting as it says it ignores this movement for purposes of grinding advance, and still shoot 2x?
Can I apply any of these on Super Heavies like Baneblades and all the Super Heavies. I assume so since they have the REGIMENT Keyword, but I recall hearing that super heavies don't get order benefits or something like that.
Sorry for all the questions, its just difficult sorting out how all the doctrines, orders, etc... interact.
I imagine the Relic is very popular because if you have a sizable Cadian detachment built around the doctrine and stratagem you should have at least a few units that benefit nicely from its presence.
Note that the catachan order can only affect infantry so no combo there.
The catachan doctrine is per weapon. You may now salivate..
Re: Cadian and Tallarn yes to both.
Unfortunately SH do not gain regiment doctrines unless i think you get them in a supreme command Detachment.
konst80hummel wrote: Note that the catachan order can only affect infantry so no combo there.
The catachan doctrine is per weapon. You may now salivate..
Re: Cadian and Tallarn yes to both.
Unfortunately SH do not gain regiment doctrines unless i think you get them in a supreme command Detachment.
I found it. Its Super Heavy AUXILLARY Detachments. But if you take a super heavy detachment or a Supreme Command you can get them. Thats dumb. Wonder why they did that. Can they still get orders?
Read the datasheets for the models that can give Tank Orders. They specify the keyword you need to receive a Tank Order. You can then compare that to keywords on the Super heavy tank datasheets.
Alpharius Walks wrote: Read the datasheets for the models that can give Tank Orders. They specify the keyword you need to receive a Tank Order. You can then compare that to keywords on the Super heavy tank datasheets.
Doh. I read that, then read all the other stuff and forgot that.Sometimes the simplest answer is right in front of you.
You can get the regiments on them by putting them in a supreme command. Just take 3 extra commanders/commissars/psykers if you want low cost or take 3 tank commanders if you want overkill
You can still use stratagems on a Lord of War tank in a super heavy auxiliary, you just have to select around that restriction if you do not want to bring a supreme command detachment. As an example a tank in a Tallarn super heavy auxiliary can still use Ambush, which is really what you want out of that regiment anyway.
Ok Awesome, looking at a Supreme Command tallarn, maybe Catachan Superheavy build like this..
Is this combo viable/legal.
Take a Doomhammer, put an Astropath with nightshroud in it, a Company Co with plasma, Platoon Co (cheap) 3x spec weapons sq (3x with plasma). Then you put the Company Co and the 9 plasma guys on the firing deck to shoot. Use nightshroud on the Doomhammer for the -1. Deckout the Doom hammer iwth Lascannon and Heavy Bolter guns. Put in Supreme command with another HQ of your choice, probably tank commander. Take Catachan or Tallarn for flavor (probably Catachan if you take flamers and plan to get in close, or Tallarn if you take HB).
Able to get Doctrines since its part of Supreme Command.
You can give 2 orders per turn from Co Cmd and 1 from Plt Commander covering all 3 spec weapons units inside/on shooting deck shooting Overcharged Plasma most likely Take Aim to avoid the 1's killing you. Just drive around and unload all that Rapid Overcharged Plasma and the Doomhammer isnt taking penatlys for its heavy weapons.
Thats about 650-700ish points, guessing nasty death star.
Please reference the rules on being embarked on a transport in the rulebook or battle primer. While the Firing Deck allows you to shoot out of the vehicle it is does not give you the ability to use psychic powers, issue orders, etc.
I have yet to receive my codex from my buddy and I have a bucket load of mordians...are they any good, most lists I've seen have been catachan or cadain I did see one vahallan once.
Mordians can be fun. Theyve got some unique mechanics, and are certainly worth playing, especially outside of a tournament setting.
Though you might run into some issues getting reinforcements, as they just went OOP... :(
Alpharius Walks wrote: It is hits and wounds. Getting rerolls to wound is unusual for a lot of Guard. It also allows you to move on the turn you use it and retain the rerolls of 1 (situationally useful).
Yeah I got the re-roll of 1 to wound part just couldn't figure out the re-roll 1's to hit but now that makes sense. Yes, it's situational but not completely without it uses...
Just out of curiosity how popular is this relic? I'm paying 1CP to get it (took Laurels of Command also). My current list starts with 14CP before I pay for the extra relic (two battalions and a spearhead battle forged).
Well remember you don't need to predecide do you have it or not so take it when it's worth it and don't when it's not
Sinful Hero wrote: What are the benefits of a Chimera over a Taurox for transporting a melee unit? Taurox is a bit cheaper isn’t it?
Taurox is cheaper yes, but it can only transport 10 AM models, the Chimera has a capacity of 12. Furthermore the Taurox is faster but not as tough as the Chimera.
Sinful Hero wrote: What are the benefits of a Chimera over a Taurox for transporting a melee unit? Taurox is a bit cheaper isn’t it?
Taurox is cheaper yes, but it can only transport 10 AM models, the Chimera has a capacity of 12. Furthermore the Taurox is faster but not as tough as the Chimera.
So if I wasn’t going to transport over 10 models anyway, it’d be speed versus toughness?
Sinful Hero wrote: What are the benefits of a Chimera over a Taurox for transporting a melee unit? Taurox is a bit cheaper isn’t it?
Taurox is cheaper yes, but it can only transport 10 AM models, the Chimera has a capacity of 12. Furthermore the Taurox is faster but not as tough as the Chimera.
So if I wasn’t going to transport over 10 models anyway, it’d be speed versus toughness?
That and equipment on the transport. Chimeras can be turned into a poor man's hellhounds with 2 heavy flamers, be given track guards so their movement doesn't degrade, and as mentioned can carry 12 models. I feel they work best if you need to go up the center and take hits to get to your destination.
Tauroxes are faster, cheaper, have decent armament for what they are, and are good on a flank. They don't draw a lot of attention, have long range weapons, and are good to move up a flank for a cheeky objective grab or something
Mordians can be fun. Theyve got some unique mechanics, and are certainly worth playing, especially outside of a tournament setting.
Though you might run into some issues getting reinforcements, as they just went OOP... :(
not to worried made a rather healthy purchase of em a few years on ebay came with various heavy and special weapons regular dudes and sgts and commanders. plus a baneblade and a few other tanks...so yea im ok
Sinful Hero wrote: What are the benefits of a Chimera over a Taurox for transporting a melee unit? Taurox is a bit cheaper isn’t it?
Taurox is cheaper yes, but it can only transport 10 AM models, the Chimera has a capacity of 12. Furthermore the Taurox is faster but not as tough as the Chimera.
So if I wasn’t going to transport over 10 models anyway, it’d be speed versus toughness?
That and equipment on the transport. Chimeras can be turned into a poor man's hellhounds with 2 heavy flamers, be given track guards so their movement doesn't degrade, and as mentioned can carry 12 models. I feel they work best if you need to go up the center and take hits to get to your destination.
Tauroxes are faster, cheaper, have decent armament for what they are, and are good on a flank. They don't draw a lot of attention, have long range weapons, and are good to move up a flank for a cheeky objective grab or something
Appreciate the food for thought. Gives me something to chew on, lol. I believe the Chimera is also about $15 cheaper, so that may influence my choice a bit. Although, the Taurox is quite stylish with a wheel kit.
Get it in the Stormtroopers start collecting boxes. Everything in the box is useful and gets you what are otherwise grossly overpriced models at a reasonable price
So I've been looking at getting a Malcador recently. Problem is they all look like utter garbage rules-wise with the possible exception of the Infernus. Has anyone used Malcadors recently? are there any that perform at least somewhat competitively? I love the models, but I get the impression that it'll just end up as a display piece :/
Manalishi wrote: So I've been looking at getting a Malcador recently. Problem is they all look like utter garbage rules-wise with the possible exception of the Infernus. Has anyone used Malcadors recently? are there any that perform at least somewhat competitively? I love the models, but I get the impression that it'll just end up as a display piece :/
Nope, they're trash. They're a really bad victim of power creep from index to codex, when the LRBT got its shots doubled the poor Malcador tanks were left behind. Even the Infernus costs a ton of points for a marginal improvement over a basic Hellhound.
Hello
Currently I am trying to add some "umpf" to my list in infantry department.
I really like Scions as a commando deep strike unit but I am kinda not sold on plasma spam. On BS3+ plasma is just so expensive. 3 plasma guns costs more than 5 scions squad with hot shots. Therefore what do You think about running scions with hot shot lasguns only? Still kinda "cheapish", -2 AP, possibility to double the fire rate with command for all models in unit.
Also what do You think about volley gun as a cheaper alternative to plasma gun and to keep scions in distance?
Scion Plasma is expensive but it's also very good, 5 man unit with 2 bs3+ plasma guns with deepstrike for only 74pt's is a steal, throw in a tempestor to grant them reroll 1's overcharge them and have field day deleting much more expensive light armour.
Scions big issue typically is that they tend to die after dropping in, you drop in, get a round of shooting off then the scions get deleted in the following turn, so you want to make sure they hit as hard as they can on the first round, plasma gives you a wide range of targets you can make your points back against whereas hotshots are much more limiting due to the strength 3. Something else to note is that hotshots have 18" range, so they don't get to rapid fire on the drop as you have to be at or within 9" to rapid fire and you have to deepstrike them 9" away from enemy models.
As for volley guns, i enjoy them simply because they put out so many shots but i wouldn't expect them to accomplish miracles, being a heavy weapon they're -1 to hit on the turn they drop in which can really hurt them. they do chew stuff up though when they hit, S4 -2AP with 4 shots does some real damage when you find a good target for them.
I'm not huge fan of the idea of scions in valkyries. You're already paying a premium for the deep strike ability, if you need something for valks, a command squad or veteran squad is cheaper. Even a SWS will save you on points and all pack a similar punch.
A platoon commander and SWS w/3x plasma is cheaper than a Scion squad with 2x plas and even cheaper than a scion command squad with plasma. Plus with the SWS you get the reroll to 1s. Granted, you are bs4+ vs bs3+.
Or you could take full advantage of and squeeze 2 SWS's in a valk.
Gnollu wrote: Hello
Currently I am trying to add some "umpf" to my list in infantry department.
I really like Scions as a commando deep strike unit but I am kinda not sold on plasma spam. On BS3+ plasma is just so expensive. 3 plasma guns costs more than 5 scions squad with hot shots. Therefore what do You think about running scions with hot shot lasguns only? Still kinda "cheapish", -2 AP, possibility to double the fire rate with command for all models in unit.
Also what do You think about volley gun as a cheaper alternative to plasma gun and to keep scions in distance?
The problem is that they Deep Strike more than 9", and their rapid fire range is 9" or less, so the rate of fire of just regular old hot shots is not so hot. Strength 3 means that you won't be scoring wounds as easily as well - so at this point they'd be best as an objective grabber or a distraction/bully unit rather than a damage dealer. They also lose most of their mobility once they drop, so rather than engaging, your opponent could just waltz out of effective range of them and just fire the occasional pot shot in their direction.
I for one enjoy volley guns, but as noted elsewhere, they do have the drawback of being heavy. The pro is that they are longer ranged than plasma or hot shots, so you have more options for positioning them to your liking, and if they can survive their first turn, they can get some more work done in the future.
Long story short:
Hot Shot - Bully/Distraction or Objective Grabber
Plasma - Is King, but don't expect them to survive to the next turn
Volley - versatile and useful, but it is no plasma.
The Stormtrooper-specific order is pretty great on Volley guns. You can tear anything T7 or less a new one with some Volley guns re-rolling all to-wound rolls.
I also like the order for Melta-guns. I don't think Melta-guns are completely out-shone by Plasma guns, as they have a higher ceiling than Plasma guns. It's certainly worth including a couple in your army in case you need to tag a high-wound model.
Saber wrote: I also like the order for Melta-guns. I don't think Melta-guns are completely out-shone by Plasma guns, as they have a higher ceiling than Plasma guns. It's certainly worth including a couple in your army in case you need to tag a high-wound model.
Uh no. Especially for scions as you don't get that melta bonus before dying. And even with that there's very small niche where melta actually even scores more wounds than plasma _and is more expensive to boot_. It's such an amazingly narrow niche that you in practice never gets to even use(as you can't deep strike to melta range so you inevitably die before getting to use it. If you have the niche target and land nearby you think opponent will ALLOW you to survive? Especially if you have just "couple"....).
8th ed deep strike rules killed melta gun basically. To be worth it it would have to be lot cheaper. More expensive than plasma is just insulting.
With the new limits on Deep Strike, I've been deploying a volley gun command squad in set-up... it gets them on the table without a turn of -1 shooting penalty, their range is adequate, the damage output is excellent, they pair well with a Prime with Kurov's Aquila, and good use of cover and stratagems can help keep them in play. The plasma guys show up Turn 2 with a Prime with Laurels of Command, hit hard as we know they do, then generally go away as described above. That's some of the best less-than-400-points I spend in most of my games.
First turn unless you go 2nd and enemy moves forward you will still suffer -1 as range is 24" which means you are out of range right away. But yeah volley guns can more easily start on board. Or in taurox prime if I have them to reduce drops if I can get the +1 with that(unlikely but sometimes I'm up against another MSU)
I like the volley guns as well, they're somewhat outshone by plasma but they're cheaper and help you deal with cheap screens or infantry that likes to hide in cover. If plasma gets any more nerfs you'll probably see more people try them, they're a unique weapon and can hit hard in the right circumstances. Not that IG is ever hurting for anti horde but they're a good deepstriking option for throwing on obectives out of the way with that 24" range.
Plus they save you some money on outfitting stormtrooper batallions and at least with them you can get some variety to the poses. Why on Earth GW thought that plasma arm was a good idea I'll never know, if I ever meet the guy who decided to do that he'll get an earful
Automatically Appended Next Post: I like the volley guns as well, they're somewhat outshone by plasma but they're cheaper and help you deal with cheap screens or infantry that likes to hide in cover. If plasma gets any more nerfs you'll probably see more people try them, they're a unique weapon and can hit hard in the right circumstances. Not that IG is ever hurting for anti horde but they're a good deepstriking option for throwing on obectives out of the way with that 24" range.
Plus they save you some money on outfitting stormtrooper batallions and at least with them you can get some variety to the poses. Why on Earth GW thought that plasma arm was a good idea I'll never know, if I ever meet the guy who decided to do that he'll get an earful
And can cause surprising hurt against vehicles. Sure D1 but -2 save and wounding often enough on 5+ and pile of dices.
Yesterday one of the only good things I had vs alaitoc/harlequin combo(which went horribly. Didn't expect them to do 30" charges like nothing and ignoring screens and ignore overwatch and whatnot and 4++'s...) were hot shots that gave promising results and this against very bad opponent. -1 to hit to negate extra shots and inv saves to negate AP.
Saber wrote: I also like the order for Melta-guns. I don't think Melta-guns are completely out-shone by Plasma guns, as they have a higher ceiling than Plasma guns. It's certainly worth including a couple in your army in case you need to tag a high-wound model.
Uh no. Especially for scions as you don't get that melta bonus before dying. And even with that there's very small niche where melta actually even scores more wounds than plasma _and is more expensive to boot_. It's such an amazingly narrow niche that you in practice never gets to even use(as you can't deep strike to melta range so you inevitably die before getting to use it. If you have the niche target and land nearby you think opponent will ALLOW you to survive? Especially if you have just "couple"....).
8th ed deep strike rules killed melta gun basically. To be worth it it would have to be lot cheaper. More expensive than plasma is just insulting.
On average a melta-gun at 12" will inflict slightly fewer wounds than a plasma gun, but it has a higher ceiling. If there's something with 5 wounds (like, say, most characters) a plasma gun cannot kill it, while a melta-gun might. As melta-guns have fewer shots they can lean more on the re-roll stratagem to get good results against a critical target, and they don't kill their users.
Plasma guns are definitely better as they have a longer range and more shots, so they can engage a wider number of targets, but melta-guns aren't worthless. If you flipped their point costs I think they'd be equally good.
Best bet for offensive CC is Bullgryns buffed with Psychic Barrier and maybe adding a Vexillus Defensor (Custodes character) for a 5+ invulnerable that you can stack on. They’re extremely tough to shift and powerful attacking.
karandrasss wrote: Anyone got Brandon Grant's Boise Cup list? How did he deal with the Knights?
From BCP:
-IG Brigade- (no clue on regiment)
Commander
Commander
Primaris
x5 Infantry Squads
x3 Infantry Squad with a Plasma Gun
x9 Bullgryns
Astropath
Ministorum Priest
x3 Hellhounds (Inferno Cannon)
x2 Basilisks
Mortar HWS
-IG SPH AUX-
Tallarn Shadowsword
Regarding Knights, I'd say he got paired well. I think the immediately-popular Raven Castellan just obliterates the Shadowsword, even with Tallarn getting the guaranteed first shot in thanks to the Ambush strat. The Bullgryns seem to be the real crux of the list.
magodedisco wrote: Regarding Knights, I'd say he got paired well. I think the immediately-popular Raven Castellan just obliterates the Shadowsword, even with Tallarn getting the guaranteed first shot in thanks to the Ambush strat. The Bullgryns seem to be the real crux of the list.
Pretty much yeah castellan with 4++ can survive shadowsword with the rotate ion shield(and that's worth the 3CP vs shadowsword) and blow that thing apart. Sure you'll be damaged but not totally crippled so if rest of IG isn't good at taking down ~10W of knight you'll be struggling to finish it off.
Raven castellan is like designed to blow up other SHV walkers and live to tell the tale. Even going 2nd.
With Elysians out of production, are Temepestus Scions a competitive alternative for an Airborne type drop trooper with them DS/transporting in fliers?
Dynas wrote: With Elysians out of production, are Temepestus Scions a competitive alternative for an Airborne type drop trooper with them DS/transporting in fliers?
I don't know how they compare to Elysians, but I find them very competitive.
If so are the Scions getting the Scions doctrine or the cadian or none?
Yes, you would need to run it with cadian (or other standard regiment doctrine). The scions would get no bonus, but the IS and CC could get the cadian doctrine. Page 132 AM codex
If so are the Scions getting the Scions doctrine or the cadian or none?
Yes, you would need to run it with cadian (or other standard regiment doctrine). The scions would get no bonus, but the IS and CC could get the cadian doctrine. Page 132 AM codex
So the Scions would not get the Cadian bonus and they wouldn't get the extra shot on a 6 as well correct?
Dynas wrote: With Elysians out of production, are Temepestus Scions a competitive alternative for an Airborne type drop trooper with them DS/transporting in fliers?
In my opinion if you put enough special modeling effort into some paratrooper guardsmen that should be fine to count as Elysians to me. I prefer Elysians to Scions personally because the points cost is so much lower.
On the left is one of my Imperial Guardsmen (Cadian) and on the right is one of my Elysian Guardsmen. They are made from mostly Anvil Industry parts, which I can't recommend enough, and some Skitarii Ranger or Pig Iron Productions hoods and helmets.
If so are the Scions getting the Scions doctrine or the cadian or none?
Yes, you would need to run it with cadian (or other standard regiment doctrine). The scions would get no bonus, but the IS and CC could get the cadian doctrine. Page 132 AM codex
So the Scions would not get the Cadian bonus and they wouldn't get the extra shot on a 6 as well correct?
Mixed Cadians and Scions detachment, Cadians would get their bonus, Scions would not get any bonus.
Going one step further, what I do is mix Cadians and Elysians in the same detachment. They are both <ASTRA MILITARUM> so it's kosher. The Cadians don't get their re-roll-stationary-1s doctrine, but you still get the stratagems and the Elysians don't have any doctrine to lose by intermingling.
In other news I made some custom mortars if anyone is struggling to fill out their 9 mortar team fire section like I was.
ph34r wrote: Fellow m̶e̶a̶t̶b̶a̶g̶s̶ Imperial Citizens, praise the O̶m̶n̶i̶s̶s̶i̶a̶h̶ God Emperor. To solve my own problem of needing 9-12 mortars I have d̶e̶v̶e̶l̶o̶p̶e̶d̶ Rediscovered the STC for some p̶h̶3̶4̶r̶ ̶p̶a̶t̶t̶e̶r̶n̶ ̶c̶r̶a̶w̶l̶y̶ ̶b̶o̶y̶e̶s̶ Totally Sanctioned Phobos Pattern mortar carriers.
My Imperial Guard are Skitarii so everything has to walk. Especially the mortars.
I hope it's cool with the Mods that I offer my services, I like 3d printing stuff to customize my armies. If you want, PM me, I'm working for "what it's worth to you" to cover the replacement printer bits and my time babysitting the printer.
Hey guys I want to try Catachan assaulting infantry. Should I use conscripts or infantry squads? Any suggestions or tactics on what's important to take? Any good strats? I'm extremely new to playing AM.
SHUPPET wrote: Hey guys I want to try Catachan assaulting infantry. Should I use conscripts or infantry squads? Any suggestions or tactics on what's important to take? Any good strats? I'm extremely new to playing AM.
Infantry squads, priests, straken, and bullgryn will be the core of your list. You'll want some sort of long ranged fire support like Russe's or basilisks, and probably some hellhounds to give your assault infantry a distraction to buy them time.
There was some London tournament recently where a guy took top 16 with a list that was assault catachans and blood Angels. Whatever the one with the terrain drama was, could be worth seeing how he ran his.
SHUPPET wrote: Hey guys I want to try Catachan assaulting infantry. Should I use conscripts or infantry squads? Any suggestions or tactics on what's important to take? Any good strats? I'm extremely new to playing AM.
Infantry squads, priests, straken, and bullgryn will be the core of your list. You'll want some sort of long ranged fire support like Russe's or basilisks, and probably some hellhounds to give your assault infantry a distraction to buy them time.
There was some London tournament recently where a guy took top 16 with a list that was assault catachans and blood Angels. Whatever the one with the terrain drama was, could be worth seeing how he ran his.
Thanks! Any tips on some strategies or synergy I want to be looking out for?
Wasn't the terrain drama at most tables btw? I'm not 100% sure what that one is
I advise using the ogryn bodyguard with the death mask of olanius relic for a 2++, and an astropath with psychic maelstrom as part of your advancing horde. These two guys punch far, far above their points cost, and both can make great use of CP re rolls
If I were you I'd spam plasna gun-power sword infantry squads (like spend half of your total points allowance on these). I'd also take 3 company commnaders and 3 platoon commanders tooled up with power fists
Celestine is a great ally, used to run her myself before she needed her own detachment. For me I just feel that BA smash captains with thunder hammers or custodes shield captains do her job a bit better, and require fewer tax units. Particularly the BA captains can obliterate anything up to a knight in melee, which Celestine just can't do
If I was going to run her, it'd be either with 3 squads of HB retributors or a squads of regular sisters in a patrol. The cannonesses don't add so much
I would run 4 bullgryns in a chimera, or better, in a valkyrie.
The other option would be a squad of at least 5 or 6 on foot, supported by a psyker (psychic barrier) and a priest.
A squad of 3 is not enough in 1750 points format.
Hi guys,
Some thoughts on a tallarn Vulture?
On paper it seems pretty good +3 BS with tallarn doctrine, -1 hit and not too expensive with punisher gattling guns.
coffee321 wrote: Hi guys,
Some thoughts on a tallarn Vulture?
On paper it seems pretty good +3 BS with tallarn doctrine, -1 hit and not too expensive with punisher gattling guns.
the vulture is great, but it does not have a <regiment> keyword, so it cannot take the tallarn doctrine. All flyers are Aeronautica Imperialis, which while not technically a regiment, kind of fills that role.
There is some synergy between flyers, especially the vulture, and the officer of the fleet though.
I have been practicing for ITC missions, playing Tallarn with Custodes and Knight Allies. I run a nearly barebones Brigade, including 3 Platoon COs. A while back, thinking how I could best employ these cheap units I decided to use Ambush to flank them onto the table. Since I usually take Recon and Behind Enemy Lines as ITC secondary missions I wanted to see how it would do.
Was I surprised- since they’re just one model they’ll fit just about anywhere on the opponent’s backfield, and since Ambush allows you to bring them on anywhere separately, I pop one in each corner and wherever else I can fit them and into cover. Even better is if you are in their lines with other units and they can’t target your guys because of the character keyword. They become the cheapest Distraction Carnifexes in the game, and when they’re targeted they more than make up their points just by taking the attention from other units.
Just curious if anyone else has done this in their games.
Thoughts on Conquerors vs Regular LRBTs? I see a lot of people taking LRBTs by default, but a Conqueor just seems all around better, for like a 3 point difference. Am I missing something?
Billagio wrote: Thoughts on Conquerors vs Regular LRBTs? I see a lot of people taking LRBTs by default, but a Conqueor just seems all around better, for like a 3 point difference. Am I missing something?
It's a forgeworld model that I believe the turret is not sold for anymore. So it has the stupid FW stigma as well as being difficult to obtain. Personally at my FLGS I just count my standard russ as a conqueror. It a real bread winner IMO. I think it can suffer in a highly mobile eldar meta where it can get tied up very easily however.
Fun fact: It's co-axial gunner rule states you may re-roll to hit. It never says failed you you can re-roll all misses regardless of modifiers.
SHUPPET wrote: Hey guys I want to try Catachan assaulting infantry. Should I use conscripts or infantry squads? Any suggestions or tactics on what's important to take? Any good strats? I'm extremely new to playing AM.
Infantry squads, priests, straken, and bullgryn will be the core of your list. You'll want some sort of long ranged fire support like Russe's or basilisks, and probably some hellhounds to give your assault infantry a distraction to buy them time.
There was some London tournament recently where a guy took top 16 with a list that was assault catachans and blood Angels. Whatever the one with the terrain drama was, could be worth seeing how he ran his.
Thanks! Any tips on some strategies or synergy I want to be looking out for?
Wasn't the terrain drama at most tables btw? I'm not 100% sure what that one is
I have been running at least one Valkyrie from the start with my catachans. Turn 1 is is -1 to hit if going second, turn two cast any powers you may want on it, snap it into hover mode and move 19" with it ans then disembark your favorite flavor of pain and move them forward 6" meaning your guanateed a 3" charge which is a 35/36 percent chance to get in. I liked to put 2 relic sword CC, straken, Nork and a melta command squad in it plus any other two dudes (PC with fists are nice). Don't forget plasma pistols. You basically are getting some decent plasma and melta shots off and then tying down several other things, don't foreget to assault with the Valkyrie itself first to soak over watch and tie up things over the screen when possible. In later turns it's actually hard for the opponent to kill them sicne they generally need to disengage a lot of things (not shooting) then position themselves to get past the character keywords with a Valkyrie in the way. Then Nork can save wounds.
I generally have a brick of bullgryn on foot legging it center field, it works better then you might expect and generally catches people on the back foot. Not the best but for me it is much more entertaining yelling "get to the choppa!" and causing mayhem turn 1 rather then the usual castle.
Billagio wrote: Thoughts on Conquerors vs Regular LRBTs? I see a lot of people taking LRBTs by default, but a Conqueor just seems all around better, for like a 3 point difference. Am I missing something?
It's a forgeworld model that I believe the turret is not sold for anymore. So it has the stupid FW stigma as well as being difficult to obtain. Personally at my FLGS I just count my standard russ as a conqueror. It a real bread winner IMO. I think it can suffer in a highly mobile eldar meta where it can get tied up very easily however.
Fun fact: It's co-axial gunner rule states you may re-roll to hit. It never says failed you you can re-roll all misses regardless of modifiers.
I was also thinking of counting my standard BC as a Conqueror cannon as well. I figured the dislike was probably that combined with FW stigma, and maybe the reduced range but wanted to see what others thought
Has anyone tried running a boat load of catachan infantry and characters in a Gorgon? Seems pretty hilarious despite being a ton of eggs in one basket.
I haven't but I just fell in love mordian infantry
Automatically Appended Next Post: Going with my last post... Please tell me if I am playing this wrong. But I think I found an good counter to plaguebearer spam in mordian infantry lasguns.
A combined squad with frfsrf shoots 18*4=72 shots. With vengence for Cadia + volley fire... That is a lot of rerolls to hits.. generating a lot of 6s, and then all those guns get to shoot again, with rerolls to hit. Then the rerolls to wound
Ran this earlier and my 72 original shots ended up with 100ish hits (against 30 plague bearers, -1 to hit) and achieved 60 ish wounds. Even with the 5++, 5+++ the unit was down to just a couple models.
Smotejob wrote: I haven't but I just fell in love mordian infantry
Automatically Appended Next Post: Going with my last post... Please tell me if I am playing this wrong. But I think I found an good counter to plaguebearer spam in mordian infantry lasguns.
A combined squad with frfsrf shoots 18*4=72 shots. With vengence for Cadia + volley fire... That is a lot of rerolls to hits.. generating a lot of 6s, and then all those guns get to shoot again, with rerolls to hit. Then the rerolls to wound
Ran this earlier and my 72 original shots ended up with 100ish hits (against 30 plague bearers, -1 to hit) and achieved 60 ish wounds. Even with the 5++, 5+++ the unit was down to just a couple models.
Can I stack strategms like that on a unit?
You played it wrong, alas. Plaguebearers are the counter to mordian volleys...you can never score a 6 to hit, when firing agains -1 to hit units...unless you dice has seven sides
Smotejob wrote: I haven't but I just fell in love mordian infantry
Automatically Appended Next Post: Going with my last post... Please tell me if I am playing this wrong. But I think I found an good counter to plaguebearer spam in mordian infantry lasguns.
A combined squad with frfsrf shoots 18*4=72 shots. With vengence for Cadia + volley fire... That is a lot of rerolls to hits.. generating a lot of 6s, and then all those guns get to shoot again, with rerolls to hit. Then the rerolls to wound
Ran this earlier and my 72 original shots ended up with 100ish hits (against 30 plague bearers, -1 to hit) and achieved 60 ish wounds. Even with the 5++, 5+++ the unit was down to just a couple models.
Can I stack strategms like that on a unit?
You played it wrong, alas. Plaguebearers are the counter to mordian volleys...you can never score a 6 to hit, when firing agains -1 to hit units...unless you dice has seven sides
He did play it wrong, but not for that reason, "Vengeance For Cadia" is used in overwatch, so the -1 to hit does not apply, so 6's can be rolled. But "Volley Fire" can only be used in the Shooting Phase, so does not stack, as they cannot be used at the same time.
Smotejob wrote: I haven't but I just fell in love mordian infantry
Automatically Appended Next Post: Going with my last post... Please tell me if I am playing this wrong. But I think I found an good counter to plaguebearer spam in mordian infantry lasguns.
A combined squad with frfsrf shoots 18*4=72 shots. With vengence for Cadia + volley fire... That is a lot of rerolls to hits.. generating a lot of 6s, and then all those guns get to shoot again, with rerolls to hit. Then the rerolls to wound
Ran this earlier and my 72 original shots ended up with 100ish hits (against 30 plague bearers, -1 to hit) and achieved 60 ish wounds. Even with the 5++, 5+++ the unit was down to just a couple models.
Can I stack strategms like that on a unit?
You played it wrong, alas. Plaguebearers are the counter to mordian volleys...you can never score a 6 to hit, when firing agains -1 to hit units...unless you dice has seven sides
He did play it wrong, but not for that reason, "Vengeance For Cadia" is used in overwatch, so the -1 to hit does not apply, so 6's can be rolled. But "Volley Fire" can only be used in the Shooting Phase, so does not stack, as they cannot be used at the same time.
-1 still applies to Overwatch, it just doesn't affect what you need to hit on. So if you're shooting Plaguebearers in squads of 20 or more, your Plasma will blow up on a 1 and a 2, but you do still hit on a 6.
Smotejob wrote: I haven't but I just fell in love mordian infantry
Automatically Appended Next Post: Going with my last post... Please tell me if I am playing this wrong. But I think I found an good counter to plaguebearer spam in mordian infantry lasguns.
A combined squad with frfsrf shoots 18*4=72 shots. With vengence for Cadia + volley fire... That is a lot of rerolls to hits.. generating a lot of 6s, and then all those guns get to shoot again, with rerolls to hit. Then the rerolls to wound
Ran this earlier and my 72 original shots ended up with 100ish hits (against 30 plague bearers, -1 to hit) and achieved 60 ish wounds. Even with the 5++, 5+++ the unit was down to just a couple models.
Can I stack strategms like that on a unit?
You played it wrong, alas. Plaguebearers are the counter to mordian volleys...you can never score a 6 to hit, when firing agains -1 to hit units...unless you dice has seven sides
He did play it wrong, but not for that reason, "Vengeance For Cadia" is used in overwatch, so the -1 to hit does not apply, so 6's can be rolled. But "Volley Fire" can only be used in the Shooting Phase, so does not stack, as they cannot be used at the same time.
Reading "Vengeance For Cadia", it says "Select one of your Astra Militarum units to shoot or fire Overwatch . While the Baneblade example someone else gave dealt with overwatch (Defensive gunners), using "Vengeance for Cadia" can be used at the same time as "Volley fire", it just won't do any good against -1 to hit spam becauise of the aforementioned "impossible to achieve 6+" result. Mind, if you had some other way to passively buff a +1 to hit, the combo would be back on the table (should you choose to spend 3+ CP on 18 lasguns [1 for combined squads, 1 for Vengeance for Cadia, 1 for Volley Fire]).
Voila, BS 2+ baneblade. And if you're facing chaos, vengeance for Cadia still lets you reroll ALL your misses.
Now what would go well with this? Allies? I figure this list wants to go first pretty badly.
Honestly? A tone of bog standard lasrifle squads - enough to force the opponent to take a turn or two to chew through and give you an extra two turns before you are charged into melee. Make them catachan with a couple priests and more timid opponents may actually not charge at all, letting you shoot/smite with impunity.
Before using Vengeance with those stacking to hit buffs just remember rerolls before modifiers. If you are wounding on 2s as an example having to reroll 2s and 3s to hit might not be worth the wounds reroll. Of course if you are targeting a Chaos LoW with -1 to hit Vengeance would still very much be worth it.
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: It doesn’t give you a choice, you reroll failed hits/wounds for the unit. Not that the unit can, but after using the stratagem, it does.
God I hate the way modifiers work in this game. It's so gamey and annoying. This is one of the perfect examples of it.
Nothing against you of course, I just hate that this edition has been out for a year and this still hasn't been changed. It's so counterintuitive to go to reroll misses only for an opponent to say "actually those aren't technically misses yet, so they can't be rerolled, even though they're guaranteed misses" or the far more common issues with -1 armies affecting plasma overheat and abilities that trigger on 6's meaning the stormtrooper regiment trait is useless against half the armies I fight.
/Rant
On the original point, that feels like a ridiculous amount of combos on a baneblade when you're already a decent way toward a second one with all the points you're spending on those buffs. I'd rather just have another tank to be honest.
It is absolutely terrible that a simple order of operations change is effects such a large amount of the game. Re-rolls should be after hits/wounds have been determined. How can you actually determine if something hits or misses before modifiers? Its anti-intuitive and makes negative modifers overly powerful
Voila, BS 2+ baneblade. And if you're facing chaos, vengeance for Cadia still lets you reroll ALL your misses.
Now what would go well with this? Allies? I figure this list wants to go first pretty badly.
Honestly? A tone of bog standard lasrifle squads - enough to force the opponent to take a turn or two to chew through and give you an extra two turns before you are charged into melee. Make them catachan with a couple priests and more timid opponents may actually not charge at all, letting you shoot/smite with impunity.
The baneblade doesn't care much if it gets charged - it can still shoot out of it. Unless it gets charged by something that can hurt it. I was thinking more like custodes, a knight, or some flavor of marines, which can charge whatever could hurt the baneblade and survive a turn. Especially since this thing wants turn 1.
Ig seem to be a pretty potent melle army in some combinations. Especially catachan. Basic infantry puts out 3 s4 attacks with a priest and straken. That's ork level of mellee. Yes, you only have a 6" bubble of true choppiness but it might be enough for a mellee missile. True gems are platoon commanders with fists or relic weapons. Company commanders are good too, although you pay extra points for 1 wound and order that you might not need. Still, extra hq give you extra cp.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Anywayz, here is a batrep of mellee ig vs guillimarines. Playing ig for the first time in 8th.
Biggest thing I miss in 5th for guard is true, non-strategem'd combined squads. Proper CC buffing with giant blobs back in the day were fun. Also, wIth how cover works and the small squads, its hardly worth it to buy an aegis defence line for guard to gunline with.
Which is really sad, because if theres one army that would static gunline with fortifications, its Astra Militarum/IG
Which do Hellhound variant do you guys prefer? I like the Banewolf for the -3 and the 2+ wound but I'm not sure if the standard Hellhound might be more use for the double range and shots?
fatbudda319 wrote: Which do Hellhound variant do you guys prefer? I like the Banewolf for the -3 and the 2+ wound but I'm not sure if the standard Hellhound might be more use for the double range and shots?
I've not picked up the models yet, but I do plan on getting of the standard ones. The extra range is so huge as well as the extra shots. Where it really shines is anti eldar because at s6 it hurts most of their stuff pretty well, ignores all their -50 to hit and has enough AP to where dark eldar ones need to use their invuln. The artemis one from FW can have a case made for it as well as a suicide bomber option.
fatbudda319 wrote: Which do Hellhound variant do you guys prefer? I like the Banewolf for the -3 and the 2+ wound but I'm not sure if the standard Hellhound might be more use for the double range and shots?
Why are you bringing a hellhound?
Most often its to combat -to hit stuff. Which are most often some variant of Eldar, where you don't need the ap of the banewolf. Or flyers, where the Banewolf is horrible.
Plus a Hellhound can reach across the table in 1 turn. A banewolf cannot.
fatbudda319 wrote: Which do Hellhound variant do you guys prefer? I like the Banewolf for the -3 and the 2+ wound but I'm not sure if the standard Hellhound might be more use for the double range and shots?
I love the basic Hellhound. The heavy flamer is really nice if running Catachan, and even with that and a storm bolter you're only just over 100pts. It's a reasonably durable chassis for assaulting shooting units, and it blows up on a 4+ for amazing mortal wounds. It also can do some anti-flyer work in a pinch.
It really excels under catachan, and at 2000 points I usually rock three.
For Cadians, I would look closer at the Artemia from FW. The devil dog is just too swingy for me to take seriously (d3 shots + 4+ to hit = ) The banewolf is too short range to expect to shoot too many times, and doesn't have the fireboat potential of the basic hellhound as it only explodes on a 6+.
I've been toying around with putting the following catachan list together, initially to support my blood angels but eventually its own army. I get that it's probably not the most competitive but I was wondering if you guys would mind taking a look and seeing where I'm wasting points or if I've missed anything.
Spoiler:
Battalion x1 - 486 points
Catachan
Colonel Straken
Company Commander - Power Sword, Shotgun - Kurov's Aquila & Grand Strategist (I'd liked to have split these two up but I don't thin there's a more suitable target)
x2 Infantry squads
x1 infantry squad with mortar
Sergeant Harker
x2 Hellhounds - Heavybolter
Spear Head detachment - 864 points
Catachan
Command Executioner, Heavy Bolter
x2 Basilisk
x2 Leman Russ Conqueror - Heavy Bolter
Manticore
Seems strong, but I think there is not enough infantry to protect the tanks. I would drop a Basilisk (or a Leman Russ), thus giving enough points to buy 2 (or 3) infantry squads.
With the spare points you could upgrade the squads with some mortars or heavy bolters.
There is a little mistake also. A named character cannot be given a relic. So you will need to find a turnaround about this, if you still want Kurov's aquila.
Ravajaxe wrote: Seems strong, but I think there is not enough infantry to protect the tanks. I would drop a Basilisk (or a Leman Russ), thus giving enough points to buy 2 (or 3) infantry squads.
With the spare points you could upgrade the squads with some mortars or heavy bolters.
There is a little mistake also. A named character cannot be given a relic. So you will need to find a turnaround about this, if you still want Kurov's aquila.
Thanks for the quick response, you're probably right about the infantry! The relic is meant to be on the normal commander though.
koooaei wrote: Btw, can CRASSUS ARMORED ASSAULT TRANSPORT just forego all the equipment and roll around for just 200 pts?
I don't think so. The unit entry states that it is equipped with 4 heavy bolters. Then you have options to replace the heavy bolters with other weapons or to add more options.
Hey all! So I was hearing from a buddy thatthe BAO tournament just took place. Of all the lists that placed at the top none were primarily guard. A few had the guard “cp farms” of 2 commanders and 3 infantry squads for cheap battalion and cp recycle.
But the other big thing was of the top 5 list 4 of them I believe were knights. 1-2 of chaos and 1-3 imperial. The chaos one I believe won it overall.
So with this said. If playing primarily guard how do we handle knights???
Also if running 3 shadowswords I wouldn’t bother taking a baneblade variant by itself because the opponent will have enough fire power to take it out. So if you don’t got first your shadowsword will be dead.
tankboy145 wrote: Hey all! So I was hearing from a buddy thatthe BAO tournament just took place. Of all the lists that placed at the top none were primarily guard. A few had the guard “cp farms” of 2 commanders and 3 infantry squads for cheap battalion and cp recycle.
But the other big thing was of the top 5 list 4 of them I believe were knights. 1-2 of chaos and 1-3 imperial. The chaos one I believe won it overall.
So with this said. If playing primarily guard how do we handle knights???
Also if running 3 shadowswords I wouldn’t bother taking a baneblade variant by itself because the opponent will have enough fire power to take it out. So if you don’t got first your shadowsword will be dead.
That's why people take the Tallarn shadowsword and outflank it. That way it doesn't get shot before it has a chance to fire.
tankboy145 wrote: Even then you get 1 round of shooting? And a knight I believe has a chance to rotate iron shileds and pretty much block the shadowswords attacks.
You are right about that. I play knights with allied guard for cheap chaff, and I’d make all my knights take warlord traits like iron bulwark and just rotate ion shields when needed. By my experience, though, massed dreadnoughts (4 or 5) did tons of damage, as well as lascannons. I’ve fielded like 15 lascannon teams and it seems to be able to take on knights and the like. If you ally with marines, you can take a supreme command with 3 librarians and you can bulk zone all of the knights, and that works too.
tankboy145 wrote: Even then you get 1 round of shooting? And a knight I believe has a chance to rotate iron shileds and pretty much block the shadowswords attacks.
You are right about that. I play knights with allied guard for cheap chaff, and I’d make all my knights take warlord traits like iron bulwark and just rotate ion shields when needed. By my experience, though, massed dreadnoughts (4 or 5) did tons of damage, as well as lascannons. I’ve fielded like 15 lascannon teams and it seems to be able to take on knights and the like. If you ally with marines, you can take a supreme command with 3 librarians and you can bulk zone all of the knights, and that works too.
Ironically I think one of the hardest counters IG could take against knights would be a Cadian infantry gunline with something like 10-15 infantry squads packing las plas with officer and relic support. Knights struggle to deal with hordes and "Overlapping fields of fire" is pretty much tailor made to tear a knight a new exhaust pipe.
Combine that with some stormtrooper support for turn 2 to get in behind them and take their objectives and some mortars to clear the screen they likely had, I don't know if a knight army would have the tools to stop a classic IG infantry list kitted for bear.
The issue of course is that that list folds to all the infiltrate shenanigans out there, and god help you if you met the one knight player crazy enough to ally in Raven guard Aggressors
Man adding a shadowsword to a list is a pain in the ass. I had this 1500 list and wanted to add a shadowsword to it in order to get to 2k. Easy right? Nope! Because of the 3 detachment rule I have to drop one of my battalions in order to add a detachment that can take a LOW and spread out the units into other detachments non optimally.
My main issue (and its small) is ive now got 2 random infantry squads as catachan because I can only fit 6 in a battalion and no other deatchments can take troops :(
With the new Knight codex a Shadowsword is no longer an effective counter.
It will wound but probably not kill a Knight if your going first or outflank it with Tallarn.
And then it just dies.
I'm with MrMoustaffa, your better of bringing 20 lascannons.
Ordana wrote: With the new Knight codex a Shadowsword is no longer an effective counter.
It will wound but probably not kill a Knight if your going first or outflank it with Tallarn.
And then it just dies.
I'm with MrMoustaffa, your better of bringing 20 lascannons.
Im mainly playing against people who dont bring knights
Ordana wrote: With the new Knight codex a Shadowsword is no longer an effective counter.
It will wound but probably not kill a Knight if your going first or outflank it with Tallarn.
And then it just dies.
I'm with MrMoustaffa, your better of bringing 20 lascannons.
Im mainly playing against people who dont bring knights
He was probably referring to my comment about how to deal with knights as I mentioned a shadowsword is no longer viable unless you take multiples.
I will agree it feels that infantry heavy lists need lots of lascannons in order to deal with these new knight armies.
It sucks as I generally run a few battle cannon russes and they do some damage but soak up lots of points.
Well the humble infantry squad with Lascannons/plasma setup has served me well since 8th dropped. It kind of goes against everything you learn as a guard player though, as it is truly a jack of all trades squad designed to do a bit of everything. Usually when I run them I double down and take as many as physically possible, which usually means I'm running pure IG. And when I say doubling down, I mean it, often at least 10 squads, and then I had conscripts on top of that with some lists. Their main issue is they become very expensive screens that way, so they ironically need a screen of their own. Valhallans do well with them since I bring conscripts with chenkov anyways for the theme of that list, but with other regiments I often found it was a good idea to bring a few barebones squads to go where you knew they were going to die no matter what.
I don't feel they're a viable choice for soup or armored players, but for a player wanting a heavy infantry allotment they are golden. There are just so many abilities that can affect them to boost their firepower however you need it, and there isn't a list in the game where they don't have something worth shooting. Their big weakness is Altaoic, pure and simple. Others, like Raven guard you can reliably drop with weight of fire, but eldar just have too many shenanigans to get you 6's or worse.
The real question is optimal regiment choice. Cadian seems obvious but I hate sitting still, that said you can get one really big turn with the relic and every other turn if you OFoF. Catachans can make theirs even more generalist by sprinkling in priests, straken, and harker so they can counter turn 1 assaults. Valhallans have good morale to keep the special weapons firing and can fire into combat (ironically a great way to kill enemy characters I've found). Mordians can get some good use out of them with overwatch but many abilities get around that these days.
Honestly the only 3 I'm not crazy with it are Armageddon, who still aren't bad. Tallarn, because their whole schtick is movement and not taking heavy weapons. And Vostroyan, because their order isnt as flexible as Valhalla's, their strategem would only work on one squad, and their regiment trait doesn't do a whole lot to boost effectiveness.
If anyone wants to try this, you need to know how you're going to counter turn 1 things like Raven guard aggressors and smash captain, and how you will deal with hard to hit targets. I've had fun with a wall of leman Russe's backing my men up and lots of officer support, but if I was trying to be optimal I'd have 3 Icarus admech onagers, some sort of indirect fire, and a way to get some sort of fast melee unit to push the opponent off of objectives like blood Angels or a knight.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Well the humble infantry squad with Lascannons/plasma setup has served me well since 8th dropped. It kind of goes against everything you learn as a guard player though, as it is truly a jack of all trades squad designed to do a bit of everything. Usually when I run them I double down and take as many as physically possible, which usually means I'm running pure IG. And when I say doubling down, I mean it, often at least 10 squads, and then I had conscripts on top of that with some lists. Their main issue is they become very expensive screens that way, so they ironically need a screen of their own. Valhallans do well with them since I bring conscripts with chenkov anyways for the theme of that list, but with other regiments I often found it was a good idea to bring a few barebones squads to go where you knew they were going to die no matter what.
I don't feel they're a viable choice for soup or armored players, but for a player wanting a heavy infantry allotment they are golden. There are just so many abilities that can affect them to boost their firepower however you need it, and there isn't a list in the game where they don't have something worth shooting. Their big weakness is Altaoic, pure and simple. Others, like Raven guard you can reliably drop with weight of fire, but eldar just have too many shenanigans to get you 6's or worse.
The real question is optimal regiment choice. Cadian seems obvious but I hate sitting still, that said you can get one really big turn with the relic and every other turn if you OFoF. Catachans can make theirs even more generalist by sprinkling in priests, straken, and harker so they can counter turn 1 assaults. Valhallans have good morale to keep the special weapons firing and can fire into combat (ironically a great way to kill enemy characters I've found). Mordians can get some good use out of them with overwatch but many abilities get around that these days.
Honestly the only 3 I'm not crazy with it are Armageddon, who still aren't bad. Tallarn, because their whole schtick is movement and not taking heavy weapons. And Vostroyan, because their order isnt as flexible as Valhalla's, their strategem would only work on one squad, and their regiment trait doesn't do a whole lot to boost effectiveness.
If anyone wants to try this, you need to know how you're going to counter turn 1 things like Raven guard aggressors and smash captain, and how you will deal with hard to hit targets. I've had fun with a wall of leman Russe's backing my men up and lots of officer support, but if I was trying to be optimal I'd have 3 Icarus admech onagers, some sort of indirect fire, and a way to get some sort of fast melee unit to push the opponent off of objectives like blood Angels or a knight.
If you want Admech for Onagers you can add in some Dragoons as your melee unit.
Billagio wrote: The relic only benefits cadians for the reroll wounds of 1 since they reroll hits of 1 if they dont move already right? (assuming non chaos enemy)
On the surface yes, but sitting still is a major trap that the Cadian doctrine encourages. As a guard player you really should be moving as much as possible, sitting still every turn just gives your opponent the initiative and makes you only able to react, which is a surefire way to lose games. Be that moving up to take objectives or moving back to buy yourself time from assaults, you need to be deciding the flow of the game, not just sitting there and rolling dice. I see a lot of new guard players fall into this trap, myself included when the codex first dropped. You just get in that mindset of "if I move I lose rerolls!" not realizing that by sitting still you're giving up rapid fire, or allowing yourself to be charged, or losing a key objective.
Thats what makes the relic nice, it let's your army move up on a critical phase and not lose any real firepower. Combine it with overlapping fields of fire and it can win games. In my opinion Overlapping Fields of fire and the relic are the real reasons to run Cadians anyways. So many lists these days run centerpiece death star units that are designed to suckerpunch your army. That strategem relic combo lets you focus them down faster than any other regiment in the codex. In addition, the Cadian relic has twice the range of Harker, and overlapping fields of fire works for your whole army. This means you'll see more impact from this combo than Harker could ever provide.
Harker on the other hand is a 6" aura on a single character. He will only ever buff part of your force, since bunching up around him would be suicide. His buff is nice, but when you look around you realize that Catachans give up a lot to get his bonus. Their strategem is incredibly niche and not even in the shooting phase, their order is niche, and their relic isn't even that great compared to just taking another powerfist. Harker is there more to make sure your firebase of tanks and artillery can efficiently back up your more aggressive infantry elements and hellhounds than he is some sort of army wide buffs.
This makes sense though. After all Cadians are relying on a relic and spamming CP's to get their firepower buffs and have more extreme ones because they lack melee punch. Catachans are more of an all around army thanks to their leadership and melee buffs, so they don't need to double down on firepower quite as much as a Cadian list would. So for Catachans, a simple 50pt character to keep an eye on a firebase works just fine.
Interesting I’ll have to give it a shot. I’m not new to guard but am newish to 8th guard so getting used to all the stratagems and the combos to use is a bit of a learning curve but I’ve been fairly successful so far. I might be wrong but it seems like our stratagems are fairly lackluster(though I do like defensive gunners on the executioner)
I play Catachans and you're exactly right. If you're not making use of S4, leadership 8 infantry, brutal strength + Harker, you're not being efficient. I wish our Stratagem wasn't so niche. I've probably only used it 2 or 3 times. It's pretty awful.
For some reason I never considered putting the Blade of Conquest on a priest until recently. It's actually pretty good.
I run that, a CC with plasma pistol + Mamorph Tuskblade, and Straken in 3 Chimeras with infantry that have power sword SGTs and they can do some serious work. By the time that starts dwindling, my foot Bullgryn slam in to clean house. Supported, of course, by a Hellhound, Conqueror, and punisher fireball Russ. It's this pressure backed up by my infantry squads with plasma and heavy weapons, tanks, and artillery that make it a well balanced TAC list. I know it could be more competitive but who enjoys stomping random nice folks at their FLGS?
tankboy145 wrote: As others mentioned above what’s all the hype of the raven guard aggressors and turn 1? I’ve never gone against them.
So here's the basic jist.
Each aggressor has an assault 6 bolter profile and an additional 1d6 Bolter profile. This means each aggressor puts out between 7-12 shots, with an 18" range and the assault profile. In addition, they each get power fists, T5, and 2 wounds apiece. Their gimmick is if they sit still they can fire a second time (and apparently this works on overwatch too)
On their own, they're not that scary, and any competent guard list doesn't have much to worry about. They're slow and lack transport options to get in your face, and if he sits still to double his shots you can maneuver to keep him from gg Etting good shots.
The shenanigans kick in with Raven Guards infiltrate ability. It fixes every single weakness they have. Now they get to deploy 9" away turn one, so speed is no longer an issue. In addition, strike from the shadows doesn't count as movement, it was before the game. This means each aggressor is now putting out 12+2d6 shots turn 1 from 9" away. It is the ultimate screen destroyer, and they're not very expensive pts wise. Where they get really good is they're not slouches in melee either since they all have power fists, and if you try to counter charge them their overwatch is unreal.
This is a serious issue for the traditional IG list. They've got weight of fire to clear easily 3-4 squads in an opening volley, and have the punch to threaten armor that is deployed poorly. They're absolutely nuts and make conscripts FRFSRF look like a joke. They do have 3 key weaknesses though.
1. They're glass cannons. Yes they are T5 2w 3+ save, but there's only going to be between 3-6 of them. They will get one good turn then die to return fire.
2. They can't shoot what they can't see. Hiding critical infantry squads behind cover or vehicles can help force the Raven guard player to waste shots. Remember, his ability allows him to target new units with his second volley. You have to accept your first screen WILL die and have a backup line ready to step in.
3. They absolutely rely on going first. If you set up a good deployment screen and he fails to go first, he'll have to infiltrate them far more conservatively and will have very low odds of doing much other than trying to deny ground.
They're scary the first time you see them, but once you learn their tricks you'll be ok. I've beaten them screening with Skitarii but have yet to face them with my typical infantry guard lists. I'm not too worried because usually people running the aggressors don't have much that can capitalize on them. The day I see blood Angels and knights allied with them I'll be much more concerned.
Okay I can certainly see why they can be pretty good. Certainly can get rid of a screen and mess some units up. But they also very much are a glass cannon.
Thoughts on stratagems? I know we can get a lot of CPs, but im having trouble spending all them. Im mostly spending CPs on rerolls, Defensive Gunners, Morale and OLFoF. It just seems like we dont have a lot of offensive stratagems, but maybe im wrong and am missing something?
My main opponent plays tyranids and hes got some really good ones (double shots, double damage on monster shooting, regain wounds, double advance on kraken etc). Seems like compared to that we are lacking (but I guess orders make up for that?)
I have thought the same thing, we have a few key Stratagems that see heavy use, like Take Cover! But then there are the other 50+% I never use. I also play Catachans, so take that into consideration that they don't have a very good regimental Stratagem.
I was thinking about trying out searchlights again. But man, 40pts I could have another guard squad ... I'm just tired of -1 to hit everywhere.
It just feels weird that we are an army about heavy firepower, but dont have a lot of stratagems that really reflect that it seems. Then you look at the Tyranids who get a double shoot stratagem and double damage ones. Overall their strats seem super good compared to ours.
Yes, our stratagems are quite bad in comparison to others. Thats the reason why guard is mostly use as CP farm and back objective holder. Most players use the CPs for other detachments, like blood angels or custodes.
Just look at their strats...chaos, eldar, tyranids, ba, custodes...we cant compare to those...
What are your recomendations for flyer detachment? Id like to add some air dakka actually and was thinking about stormtalon gunships. I.know that vultures exists but I like my kidneys so if we could actually rule out FW models
Well, there’s only one in the codex, so you’re looking at a couple of choices common to Astartes codices, I suppose. Really, the stormtalon, stormhawk, and/or stormraven are the only options unless you’re looking at deathwatch or space wolves, but I don’t think either of those are all that worthwhile as supplements.
Could just buy a Valkyrie and make your own vulture/vendetta parts. Wouldn’t be a huge hassle, imo.
Hi guys, I want to try fielding a little unit of 3 crusaders, with no priest. Acts of faith make them maneuverable and regenerating. Easily hidden. More easily buffed to 2++ than bullgryns.
Basically, they're budget bullgryns, with better speed. I'm taking them not for their damage output but for their ability to screen big guns and characters.
It's only 45 points! A 2-man squad can be taken for just 30! Has anyone experimented with such a unit?
Is an armored company in any way viable nowadays?
What do you need in it?
What do you need to add to it?
At 2k seems one can run 2 hellhounds, 5 conquerors, 3 punishers, 1 tank commanders and have some points leftovers for a little support.
Is it a bad idea or a very bad idea. In either case how would you make it work?
Hey, guys. I built into guard for a CP Battery as most did, but I'm finding myself really enjoying guard more and more now that I have them.
That being said, I'm a big fan of foot guard, and wanted to know if any of you have experience or suggestions using blobs od bodies to any success, and if so what regiment?
I'm going to continue using them alongside my imperial knights, but I am curious what works best. It seems most of the regiments have something to offer.
Doctor-boom wrote: Is an armored company in any way viable nowadays?
What do you need in it?
What do you need to add to it?
At 2k seems one can run 2 hellhounds, 5 conquerors, 3 punishers, 1 tank commanders and have some points leftovers for a little support.
Is it a bad idea or a very bad idea. In either case how would you make it work?
I think it's a little bit of a bad idea, if only because you have nothing really long range. I think that an all, or nearly all, armored list could work, but I think bending it even a little bit makes it a lot better. The list that I'm toying around with for a nearly pure tank list is something like:
So, the clear downside is that you only have 4 CP, but this list doesn't care all that much. I'd make the primaris the warlord and take old grudges for a re-roll against something hard.
on the flip side, tweaking this even a bit, so that you include some infantry, I think you can run a much more balanced army with a catachan spearhead and a cadian battatlion.
2x CC 3x Infantry
3x Mortarsx3
4x Basilisks
Primaris
Harker
8x LRBT
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cephalobeard wrote: Hey, guys. I built into guard for a CP Battery as most did, but I'm finding myself really enjoying guard more and more now that I have them.
That being said, I'm a big fan of foot guard, and wanted to know if any of you have experience or suggestions using blobs od bodies to any success, and if so what regiment?
I'm going to continue using them alongside my imperial knights, but I am curious what works best. It seems most of the regiments have something to offer.
So... you want to go all infantry?
The first issue is simple logistics. It's not a tournament army, not because it's not good, but because it takes a long time to pull out, deploy, move, and put away. However, it can be very, very strong.
An all infantry army can almost trivially fit THREE battalions, for 18 starting CP, which is probably about as many as you could conceivably use. You can also look at rough riders to fill out a brigade, which will up the CPs even further. At that point, you're more limited by a lack of orders than CPs, so you want to look hard at Creed for a warlord. You also will want to take advantage of multiple regimental doctrines to built your line.
so, assuming you start with a cadian bridgade and two tallarn battalions, you can have this for just over 1200 points:
Creed
3x Company Commanders
3x Platoon Commanders
6x Infantry w/ Las/Plas 6x Infantry w/ Plas 3x Rough Ridersx5, plasma x2
3x HWS, Mortars x3
So, that's 9 mortars, six lascannons, 18 plasma guns, three smites, 12 orders, and well over a hundred bodies. And you still have room!
I'd splash in three astropaths, give officers power weapons and plasma pistols, and then look hard at ratlings (for speed bumps) and special weapon squads (more plasma)
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: Well, there’s only one in the codex, so you’re looking at a couple of choices common to Astartes codices, I suppose. Really, the stormtalon, stormhawk, and/or stormraven are the only options unless you’re looking at deathwatch or space wolves, but I don’t think either of those are all that worthwhile as supplements.
Could just buy a Valkyrie and make your own vulture/vendetta parts. Wouldn’t be a huge hassle, imo.
Vendettas are utterly useless (for the points) until they actually get an errata and receive roving gunship. Vultures are not great themselves, but at least they're good for .. most of a squad of guardsmen.
Are vultures really that bad? To me they seem like a punisher but tougher (more wounds and -1 to hit), faster, potentially better ballistic skill, and can't be locked in CC.
I have sword fielding guy top of chimera with twin flamer. Appropriately enough that chimera spends lots of time charging into combat!
That happens to me all the time. Then I switch back to USA and my blood pressure comes down...
no. The Malcador pays double the points for a negligible advantage in firepower and a decent improvement in wound count. In any situation where you could have a Malcador a pair of 
) The banewolf is too short range to expect to shoot too many times, and doesn't have the fireboat potential of the basic hellhound as it only explodes on a 6+.
