Which relic would you pick between the Order of the Iron Star of Mordian, with it's 4+ against normal and mortal wounds or Deathmask of Ollanus, with its regular 4+ inv and heal d3 wounds once? What if the commander was in a commander squad with a medipack, would that change your decision?
Which relic would you pick between the Order of the Iron Star of Mordian, with it's 4+ against normal and mortal wounds or Deathmask of Ollanus, with its regular 4+ inv and heal d3 wounds a turn? What if the commander was in a commander squad with a medipack, would that change your decision?
Realistically, neither.
Commanders should be hiding towards the back of the army, out of line of sight if possible, and thus shouldn't need to bother with relics to increase their durability. Kurov's Aquilla and the Laurels of Command are the best choices for this. The sole alternative to this is a throwaway Commander using the Dagger of Tu'Sakh to outflank.
MinMax wrote: Kurov's Aquilla and the Laurels of Command are the best choices for this. The sole alternative to this is a throwaway Commander using the Dagger of Tu'Sakh to outflank.
And Relic of Lost Cadia, especially if your local club plays by RAW (like mine does) and you can use it every turn.
MinMax wrote: Kurov's Aquilla and the Laurels of Command are the best choices for this. The sole alternative to this is a throwaway Commander using the Dagger of Tu'Sakh to outflank.
And Relic of Lost Cadia, especially if your local club plays by RAW (like mine does) and you can use it every turn.
I really can't see how any Chaos player would willingly agree to play against anyone running the RoLC that way. But hey, if they want to play the 40k equivalent of Dark Souls I guess that's on them.
MinMax wrote: Kurov's Aquilla and the Laurels of Command are the best choices for this. The sole alternative to this is a throwaway Commander using the Dagger of Tu'Sakh to outflank.
And Relic of Lost Cadia, especially if your local club plays by RAW (like mine does) and you can use it every turn.
Well I know if somebody tries to pull that one I'll insist on assault weapons not doing anything. Hey RAW is RAW.
Hearing about people playing the Lost Relic as usable every turn makes me sad (other than as self-defense against someone being similarly abusive with the rules, but that should never be the default).
@cpcmrc - Some thoughts on your list.
Your list appears to be illegal at the moment as it only has 2 HQs in the Brigade and you need 3.
The Multilaser is a terrible weapon, finding the points for even autocannons would be a nice upgrade for your Sentinels.
Unless you really need the 72" range Conquerors are a straight upgrade over the stock Leman Russ. Given their lack of improved durability I tend to think Tank Commanders are a trap but perhaps they are working for you. If I were running this list I would throw the Conquerors (replacing the stock Lemans) in a Catachan spearhead (getting them Objective Secured) and put Punishers/Executioners/etc. in the brigade as Heavy Support.
The Shadowsword is pretty pricey with sponsons. You can buy an artillery tank or almost a Leman with their cost. Given how expensive it is that is something to think about. I would also consider throwing it in its own auxiliary detachment as Tallarn and Ambushing it if you having issues keeping it alive. You indicated you were confident in it so I am guessing no but I normally do not expect it to live long if it starts on the board.
I personally like Rough Riders for grabbing objectives in the enemy deployment zone. I have a recent battle report thread that discusses this and will have another going up soon from a tournament this week if you want to read more about that. I also use allied Imperium characters instead of Ogryn/Bullgryn as counter assault elements since they are easier to hide with the character rule.
@ Alpharius Walks
you are right...my bad I corrected it dropping laser on tank commanders and inserting a company commander
are you thinking is better have normal russes instead tank commander? the problem is no order (move or reroll d6 on turret) and ab 4+ with so many -1 to hit is like 5+ more the time
maybe i can use the stratagem for adding +1 to hit if I hurt something with cadian unit
riders or ogryn deathstar is what I m thinking right now to grab objectives or counterassault
I think it really depends on your preferences. If you can reasonably proxy it and like mass tanks I would suggest giving a spearhead of Catachan Conquerors a try just so that you can see if it appeals to you or not.
I really can't see how any Chaos player would willingly agree to play against anyone running the RoLC that way. But hey, if they want to play the 40k equivalent of Dark Souls I guess that's on them.
We have a Chaos player here and he is fine with that. By the way he was able to win a match against my IG during the last tournament by castling in a big ruin and doing Maelstrom missions (though he had some luck with his cards), so this relic in not an auto-win button even against Chaos .
Automatically Appended Next Post:
cpcmrc wrote: @ Alpharius Walks
are you thinking is better have normal russes instead tank commander? the problem is no order (move or reroll d6 on turret) and ab 4+ with so many -1 to hit is like 5+ more the time
My experience tells me that you are totally right. That 3+ BS and orders compensate for a point increase with ease. Especially if we take in the account that -1 to-hit modifiers that everyone around us can have. There is a HUGE difference between being able to hit Eldar at 4+ (or 5+ with their stratagem) or at 5+ and 6+ respectively. Tank Commanders are a way to go. Just take at least 3 of them.
Which relic would you pick between the Order of the Iron Star of Mordian, with it's 4+ against normal and mortal wounds or Deathmask of Ollanus, with its regular 4+ inv and heal d3 wounds a turn? What if the commander was in a commander squad with a medipack, would that change your decision?
Realistically, neither.
Commanders should be hiding towards the back of the army, out of line of sight if possible, and thus shouldn't need to bother with relics to increase their durability. Kurov's Aquilla and the Laurels of Command are the best choices for this. The sole alternative to this is a throwaway Commander using the Dagger of Tu'Sakh to outflank.
I agree, so I'm planning on taking both the Laurels of Command and Kurov's Aquila and I'm looking to take the third relic for 3 cp. It puts me at ten overall command points at 2000, but not too worried about getting out commanded with the Aqulia. Takes a bit of the edge off competitively but I don't mind a little personality. Could I dunno, tank some small arms fire or tie up an ambushing unit a turn longer. If it's a problem down the road I can start going with Grand Strategist as my warlord trait, and if its a problem beyond that I can drop the relic entirely for competitive games since it's not really represented on the model. I like the dagger a lot if I didn't have to deploy the HQ choice with it. I just realized you can do it at the end of any of your movement phases so it's not as suicidal as I initially thought. I don't really have anything to take advantage of it in my army atm. My army list is posted over here if you're interested. (I wrote some Mordian fluff fwiw)
Technically I guess the dagger is the most protective relic we have since we could just keep the character off the board the whole game. But if a maniac on a forum held ya fake hostage which would ya choose, Deathmask or Iron Star?
E:Oh ya, Relic of Cadia is better than both. Same with Pietrov's MK 45. Auto-Requary too. Is the Blade of Conquest worthwhile? I mean, as far as guard go.
E2: Former ork player getting back into the game and finally making that guard army I always wanted. Hello, hi.
So I'm a new guard player starting up a Mordian army. Looks like I'm gonna have to convert my plasma guns. Any other suggestions of stuff I should be kitbashing off the start? I love the look of the Mordians so taking the doctrine is no sweat for me. Are scout sentinels worth anything any more? I was thinking heavy bolters on them with HK missiles.
Nuck Fewton wrote: So I'm a new guard player starting up a Mordian army. Looks like I'm gonna have to convert my plasma guns. Any other suggestions of stuff I should be kitbashing off the start? I love the look of the Mordians so taking the doctrine is no sweat for me. Are scout sentinels worth anything any more? I was thinking heavy bolters on them with HK missiles.
The Mordian rules don't really push towards or away from anything. Getting +1 to overwatch is nice, but probably won't really make a difference in most games. What they do have is one of the best strategems and orders, and a relic that allows your company commander to scrap a little bit.
I would run plenty of infantry squads with plasma, and use Firing Squad to pick out enemy characters with extreme prejudice. Just be careful about keeping your tanks too close together. +1 overwatch is nice, but it's better to not have two tanks tied up in combat anyway.
Technically I guess the dagger is the most protective relic we have since we could just keep the character off the board the whole game. But if a maniac on a forum held ya fake hostage which would ya choose, Deathmask or Iron Star?
E:Oh ya, Relic of Cadia is better than both. Same with Pietrov's MK 45. Auto-Requary too. Is the Blade of Conquest worthwhile? I mean, as far as guard go.
I'd say Iron Star. If you're serious about your character getting into combat, he'll likely face mortal wounds, which is where the Iron Star really shines. Also, CCs have a 5++ base, so you'll be bouncing 2/3 of all wounds he takes, and 1/2 of all mortal wounds.
And the blade of conquest is great, it's just a combat weapon on a WS 3+, 3 attack model, so.... I always buy one of my officers a power sword so I have the option to buy an extra relic with CP and run it. It's fun when you get the chance!
Nuck Fewton wrote: So I'm a new guard player starting up a Mordian army. Looks like I'm gonna have to convert my plasma guns. Any other suggestions of stuff I should be kitbashing off the start? I love the look of the Mordians so taking the doctrine is no sweat for me. Are scout sentinels worth anything any more? I was thinking heavy bolters on them with HK missiles.
What Polonious said. I also add plasma pistols and a power sword to my infantry. It's probably too many points, but the idea is that I capitalize on the overwatch buff and make assaulting me as expensive as possible for the enemy. Won't make a difference in a game on its own, but if it chips off one or two extra models, it's a drop in the bucket toward making a difference.
I would not keep tanks together unless you are absolutely positive nothing can get to you in TWO turns, not just next turn. The cost of having multiple tanks shut down is just too much.
Something I daydream about but have never actually tried is putting a 3 plasma veteran squad and a platoon commander into a Valkyrie and doing some character hunting. It would probably not get you your points back, but it sounds cool in my head.
Far as modelling goes, if you're not married to "GW pieces only", buy the plasma gun five pack from GW's website, and then buy Victoria Miniatures not-Mordians. They should fit once you cut the SM hands off the plasma guns, and those are resin now, so it's much easier than it used to be.
If you are married to GW, then it becomes a lot harder. Best idea I've seen is to cut the gun off the guy running forward with his gun raised straight up (I think he has a bayonet) and replace that gun with the plasma. I've never tried it though, so I don't know how hard it is to actually do. I do not envy needing to do this.
Got my first game in 8th ed vs tau codex. He had fairly relaxed army. Think mine was more competive though still not maximized I think. I had:
Cadian brigade with 2 company commanders(one power sword, one warlord with both CP boosting things) and primaris psyker(-1 to hit plus mortal wound on 2+, 3+ etc). . commisar, platoon commander, special weapon squad with 3 plasma. 4 infantry squad with flamer+autocannon, 3 squads with lascannon+plasma. Sentinel with autocannon, 2 hellhounds, 2 leman russ with 3 heavy bolters and manticore. Also tempestrum patrol with prime(with staff due to WYSIWYG) and 6 scions with 2 plasma gun.
He had roughly 2 suit commanders w/2 flamers and 2 melta each, several min sized fire warrior squads, 3 gun drone squadrons, marker drone squadron, pathfinders, 2 hammerheads with railguns, 3 crisis suits with something, ethereal and fireblade(?).
Overall low on AT as he had mentioned before. I didn't instantly load up on tanks. My list was actually set up before he mentioned so no tooling up.
He had forgotten tons of stuff at home. Maelstrom objective cards so we went for open war getting fairly boring scenario. THE basic deployment, kill points by PL and immune to morality(which hurt him as...well IG isn't moral heavy and his sept gave him +1LD!). I offered redraw, he decline.
He also had forgotten like 40 firewarriors at home so he had to resort to borrowing my IG's Good thing I had brought tons of extra with me! So with various random models including Yarric as fireblade it looked more like IG civil war Haha. Well it was that or cancel game! Deployment was crazy as I had more stuff than I had on league so more things to worry and he had sooooo much stuff on deep strike I had trouble figuring out what to do since he could hide. We both rolled 6 for first turn but as I had like 2 or 3 drops more it was easy enough for him to get first turn.
Now first turn for me was DISASTER. Both hammerheads fired at manticore and blew it up sky high. Drones and commanders deep striked ahead my army. Commanders shoot at hellhound. With 4 meltas he got 2 through. Then BOOOM another tank went up. Bunch of IG guys dead. In return I stood back and brought in scions between drones and hammerheads(there was barely wide enough strip of land between them) and I fired mostly at the tanks and.........5 wounds to one by scions. I fired 3 lascannons at them and got 3 hits, 3 wounds and...He rolled 3 6's to save. Leman russ failed to do anything. At this point I was sure I was toast especially as commanders would be free to move.
However his 2nd turn wasn't as disasterous. He hurt both of my russes and wiped scions but overall fairly light. In return I blew out hammerhead and cleared drones from commanders surrounding enough for special weapon squad to have moved inside ruin out of LOS next to them and blow up dead. Leman russ finished up second one. This was fairly major blow to him obviously.
Turn 3 he put one russ into 2nd damage bracket nearly to the last one and was killing my poor infantry left and right. However in my turn I managed to cripple his hammerhead that was on last bracket and killed lots of firewarriors especially with the hellhound that finally got into range. At this point he surrendered not seeing way to deal with my russ in 9 wounds, russ in 4 wounds, intact hellhound and remnants of my infantry.
I think it might have been BIT too early. I would have tried to shoot the russ with 4 wounds with crippled hammerhead. If it can hit&wound it will get into last bracket FOR SURE if not be blown up. Russ hitting on 6+ isn't much of a threat. 2nd russ isn't quickly getting LOS to the hammerhead. Albeit 2 of my lascannons were having clear sight but that's what firewarriors are there for. As for hellhound charge it up with 3 crisis suits. For all it's 2d6 auto hits on overwatch it's still just S6 -1 D1 hits. Not likely to wipe out or even heavily damage crisis suits and that prevents shooting at least and as fliers he can on his turn fall back, shoot and charge if he feels like. My best option then is fall back, not shoot and trust russes to deal with crisis suits before they hit russ back.
Maybe not work and if hammerhead miss fail for sure but at least some chance.
I think I need to rethink my CP need. I had 12 but recycling+get from enemy strategems. Using overlapping fields twice and rerolls every phase I had chance(except one psychic phase) and I still had 10 at the end of the game. Either I need to get some CP hungry allies(blood angels?) or not have this much CP or it's generation. Drop either heirloom or warlord trait.
Nuck Fewton wrote: So I'm a new guard player starting up a Mordian army. Looks like I'm gonna have to convert my plasma guns. Any other suggestions of stuff I should be kitbashing off the start? I love the look of the Mordians so taking the doctrine is no sweat for me. Are scout sentinels worth anything any more? I was thinking heavy bolters on them with HK missiles.
Scout sentinels with autocannons and HK's have done decent work for me, fairly cheap and they're capable of knocking a couple of wounds off most things while not being threatening enough to get shot quickly provided you have other vehicles in play that you're opponent will probably want to shoot first. Main reason to take them remains the anti deepstrike bubble of course but if you've got the points to spare they're not a bad choice.
I just have a hard time justifying sentinels when so many lists that do deep strike shenanigans have ways to beat it. Heck even ratlings shut it down and the ratlings ability isn't even that good compared to scouts or ravenguard/alpha legion style infiltrate
Nuck Fewton wrote: So I'm a new guard player starting up a Mordian army. Looks like I'm gonna have to convert my plasma guns. Any other suggestions of stuff I should be kitbashing off the start? I love the look of the Mordians so taking the doctrine is no sweat for me. Are scout sentinels worth anything any more? I was thinking heavy bolters on them with HK missiles.
The Mordian rules don't really push towards or away from anything. Getting +1 to overwatch is nice, but probably won't really make a difference in most games. What they do have is one of the best strategems and orders, and a relic that allows your company commander to scrap a little bit.
I would run plenty of infantry squads with plasma, and use Firing Squad to pick out enemy characters with extreme prejudice. Just be careful about keeping your tanks too close together. +1 overwatch is nice, but it's better to not have two tanks tied up in combat anyway.
what about keeping sentinels next to the tanks. You get the overwatch bonus but don't risk two russes' getting locked up?
Looking for advice: How do I deploy against Drukhari?
Tomorrow I've got my first game commanding AM and I'm a bit lost when it comes to deployment. I expect an aggressive Drukhari force with lots of mobility. These are the top of my head questions, but any advice is welcome.
- Tanks in parking lot formation side by side, so they can be wrapped together? Or spread out so they don't get multi charged?
- Bubble wrap with 5"+ distance to stop assaulters from consolidating in? Or bubble wrap in tighter formation so flyers can't fit?
- Hug a corner for maximum distance? Even if it means I can't reach objectives? (Maelstrom missions)
- Any tips and tricks for how to deploy/advance scout sentinels?
I'm trying to decide how should outfit my Heavy Weapon Teams.
I can't decide between 3 Mortars, 2 Mortars and LC, 3 HBs, or 2 HBs and a LC or a Mix.
Mortars are cheapest, great range, don't need line of sight and are good for denying deepstrike but have a very weak punch with only S4 and no ap.
Heavy bolters pack much more of a punch with S5 AP -1 and a consistent 3 shots. But it will cost 9 to 12 points more per squad (Depending on if I run the mortars as Cadian or Elysian) , as a bit shorter range, and require LOS.
Sprinkling in lascannons just seems good for dealing with heavy vehicles but they are relatively expensive.
So what are others thoughts on how they run their heavy weapon teams.
You mean LCs? They cost a lot, hit on 4+ or in many cases even 5+ (though you can use Cadian order to get re-rolls) and are VERY easy to kill. Mortars can be kept out of LOS and HBs are not such a big threat to attract heavy fire, but LCs will be dead turn one if your opponent will be worried about them. And they are useless against a lot of popular armies built around un-targetable characters covered by chuff units. You really do not want to trade D6 (or 3) shots for one in this case.
Yeah lascannon are better in other units and platforms. You either want infantry squads, where you're paying 60pts for a 10 wound lascannon, or on more sturdy platforms like Leman Russe's. Regardless, Lascannon need to be used in masse to guarantee results. Just sprinkling in 1 or 2 won't help, I usually need 10-15 across my army to be sure they'll take out what they need to. Usually you're just fishing for one or two to get through so you can CP the damage roll. As the game goes on the last few lascannon pull more and more weight as both sides slug it out.
They're bad on HWS's though because they're so easy to target. Even in a pure infantry army you'll notice people just shoot them with AT weapons. In a more armored list they'll get hit by mortars, bolters, and other light weapons with nothing better to shoot. That's why you keep HWS's cheap, they're paper thin and can be targeted easily. A 33pt HWS is great, since it's a low investment for a solid return. A x3 lascannon pushes that into the 70pt range, which makes them way too tempting as targets.
You can consolidate a HWT with an Infantry Squad for 4 lascannons with 16 wounds and benefit even more from orders if it looks like the enemy has a bead on your valuable HWT. It's a super useful strategem in general.
slip wrote: You can consolidate a HWT with an Infantry Squad for 4 lascannons with 16 wounds and benefit even more from orders if it looks like the enemy has a bead on your valuable HWT. It's a super useful strategem in general.
Uhh no you can't. Consolidate squad only works on infantry squad, the unit, not key word INFANTRY.
That article just made me realise that the earthshaker outranges the deathstrike, so either the deathstrike is a really bad ICBM or the earthshaker has a stupendous range, or GW's fluff is once again at odds with in game rules.
I don't know if it's the worst. It's just meant for casual play. Same for Sly Marbo. They can hit waay above their weight class but are too swingy for tournament play.
It was good for a laugh. Not like they're having trouble shifting the kit considering it shared a box with the manticore. It's pretty clearly meant to be a joke article.
Fair enough. It was quite a fun read. I can't help but think that if I ran a deathstrike it would basically never launch, and if it did turn 4 would be a bit late to have much impact on the game, and they didn't talk about any of the drawbacks of a huge investment in them. I wish their rules were just a bit better to justify their use!
DoomMouse wrote: Fair enough. It was quite a fun read. I can't help but think that if I ran a deathstrike it would basically never launch, and if it did turn 4 would be a bit late to have much impact on the game, and they didn't talk about any of the drawbacks of a huge investment in them. I wish their rules were just a bit better to justify their use!
I mean, he did actually talk about the drawbacks and how it's really a "narrative" army rather than a competitive one.
Yes, mass infantry should be perfectly fine in that environment almost no matter how you build it. You can easily have excellent board and objective control with plenty of potential damage output.
In a more competitive and timed environment it becomes a lot trickier to play and I would only recommend it if you know you can play fast using tricks like movement trays and pre-measured dice blocks.
jotace wrote: Thinking about starting an Astra Militarum army. Is mass infantry remotely competitive?
What kind of format are you playing in? Local gaming store? ITC?
Local GW store, just rulebook and chapter approved missions, escalation leagues or games under 2.000
In that kind of environment you'll be fine. Infantry struggles more in ITC and timed missions but does very well in casual games, especially end of game scoring. Maelstrom is trickier, you'll need to consider ways to get speed for objectives like outflankers, Stormtroopers, and sentinels.
Lots of IG Cadian infantry works well in my local meta. I run nine infantry squads with no upgrades, two commissars, and four company commanders. Together with my two hellhounds and a scout sentinel, they are great for keeping the enemy a good distance away. The enemy is never able to bring reinforcements into my backfield in Matched Play. As noted by others, the drawback is game length and another issue is storing and transporting all of the models. I use Ironheart Artisan movement trays and pack my entire army in one battlefoam cardboard storage box with three foam trays.
The rest of the army is a Pask Plasma Executioner, three Leman Russ battle tanks, two Wyverns, a Primaris, a sniper SWS, and a Spearhead detachment with Ordos Hereticus inquisitors, acolytes, and Jokero.
I also use orders on Mod Cubes, IG cards, and lots of groups of small dice to speed play.
You always want a few infantry minimum to screen and stop deep striking.
Infantry heavy tends to be a very good counter to alpha strike down here.
The ability to disengage from combat really helps. Also properly place your units so the enemy has a hard time consolidating into the next wave or keep enough space between waves of infantry to fall back and have the other unit engage the enemy with shooting.
My favorite tactic so far is simply a shadowsword. Plop it down with psyker, atlas, (sometimes trojan), and tech priest support. This becomes a major target. Jerry rig it every turn healing for a total of 2d3+1, command point rerolling in the movement phase, averaging 5-6 wounds healed. The enemy usually takes all their firepower at it, still survives for 2-3 turns.(CP reroll some saves when required).
This gives enough of a distraction for my Pask (Punisher) and 3 Lemon russ Conquerers to wipe out most of my enemies. If the shadowsword goes down all healing to the rest of my tanks.
If you don't like playing tanks, there are enough heavy weapon team support mixed with scions(for obj grabbing), to shut down most problems. Only issue I've had with 200+ troops is running out of table room and not having big obstacles to hide my characters from snipers.
since I came to the conclusion that pure blood angels are not able to win games, I was thinking about adding 500 points of Astra Militarum. My main problem is the ability to clear annoying screen units before I charge with my DC: I was thinking about getting 9 heavy weapon platform with a mortar and 30 guards to protect them, using the cadian doctrine. Is it going to be enough? For anti-tank I have my 3 devastators squads with lascannon
If you are going to play ITC missions with this at some point just remember that every infantry squad should have a heavy weapons team because of The Reaper secondary.
Have you considered something like the below? It is around 500 points on the nose without the priest. You can reduce the infantry count give the sergeants power weapons if you want or want to put specials/heavies in the squads. My thought was that Cadian does not do you a lot of good since you want to be closing and Catachan + Straken gives you lots of S4 attacks.
Regardless of regiment you could also take a conscript blob to buff with the psyker via Mental Fortitude for morale and outflank it and an officer with the dagger relic. You might also like Tallarn for Ambush.
It might be doing some mathhammer to see if the IG is really better (especially when comparing deployment options) than just taking a bunch of pistol/ccw scouts.
Spearhead <CADIAN>
Primaris Psyker or Company Commander
x3 Mortars
x3 Mortars
x3 Mortars
Battalion <CATACHAN>
Straken
Company Commander with Powerfist
Priest if you want to go crazy
Infantry Squad
Infantry Squad
Infantry Squad
Infantry Squad
Infantry Squad
Infantry Squad
Spado wrote: Hello fellow defenders of the Imperium,
since I came to the conclusion that pure blood angels are not able to win games...
WHAT??? BA is one of the most powerful armies at the moment! The only reason to have allies for it is to get more CP for you excellent stratagems (3D6 charge or insta-jumping across the battlefield to take critical objective and so on). You should be totally able to crush your enemies with BA force and if not -- just learn how to use your forces. Take Death Company, Sanguinary Guard add some characters (Captain with hammer, Meph, banner-dude or Sanguinius) and wreck faces left and right. And you do not need any anti-tank other than a good old thunder-hammer in right hands.
Spado wrote: Hello fellow defenders of the Imperium,
since I came to the conclusion that pure blood angels are not able to win games...
WHAT??? BA is one of the most powerful armies at the moment! The only reason to have allies for it is to get more CP for you excellent stratagems (3D6 charge or insta-jumping across the battlefield to take critical objective and so on). You should be totally able to crush your enemies with BA force and if not -- just learn how to use your forces. Take Death Company, Sanguinary Guard add some characters (Captain with hammer, Meph, banner-dude or Sanguinius) and wreck faces left and right. And you do not need any anti-tank other than a good old thunder-hammer in right hands.
Nice trolling, now go back to your cave and stay there.
Nice trolling, now go back to your cave and stay there.
Trolling? Are you serious? Everything I wrote is based on personal experience. Or you can just look for Adepticon results and see how well BA played there. They ARE a top-level army now. One of three I personally see as most difficult to play against with my Imperial Guard (other two being Eldar and new Necron).
If you do not believe it - it is not my problem, it is your lost opportunity to utilise a power of your army in full.
necrontyrOG wrote: New FAQ changes. Commissars to 15 pts and Lord Commissars to 30. Plus 3 more points per Battalion. Not too shabby for us guard players.
+2 for a battalion.
Also, they forgot about the Elysian Commissar, so, i'm now slightly more worried that they are planning on squatting the model line as per the rumour :(
Nice trolling, now go back to your cave and stay there.
Trolling? Are you serious? Everything I wrote is based on personal experience. Or you can just look for Adepticon results and see how well BA played there. They ARE a top-level army now. One of three I personally see as most difficult to play against with my Imperial Guard (other two being Eldar and new Necron).
If you do not believe it - it is not my problem, it is your lost opportunity to utilise a power of your army in full.
The problem with BA now, is that they can't deep strike on turn 1. If you're playing against BA, all you have to do is swap the mid field table and your deployment zone in turn 1, and he can't deep strike anywhere close to being useful even with the 3d6 charge.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So, i just saw the Index Imperium 2 FAQ update...
Q: Can Tallarn Rough Riders benefit from the Tallarn
Regimental Doctrine in Codex: Astra Militarum?
A: No.
Somehow, IG actually came out on top with this FAQ. I think we benefit greatly from character targeting, and we at least break even with the smite rule and the rule of three. Commissars going from useless to "meh," coupled with a points drop, make them interesting choices for cheap brigades.
The big loss is going to be capping ourselves at three heavy weapon teams, which is just annoying.
We will now rarely outspend our CPs, to the point where I think we can look harder at non-Grand Stragist warlord traits. Especially since there is less reason to run spearheads, I see building a lot of Brigade/Battalion combos with a cadian warlord for Superior Tactical training. (Hell.. maybe even Creed can make a comeback?)
Stus67 wrote: Commissars are back to being decent leadership bubbles now at least. I might bring one or two back now.
That's my thinking as well. I'll be adding a few to the painting queue for the Zenobian 7th. If they're no longer actively counter-productive they'll be fine for friendlier games which is what I tend to play.
The problem with BA now, is that they can't deep strike on turn 1. If you're playing against BA, all you have to do is swap the mid field table and your deployment zone in turn 1, and he can't deep strike anywhere close to being useful even with the 3d6 charge.
It's a Beta rule and probably will not be mandatory for half a year (if it ever will). It's plenty of time to win some events, have fun and prepare some new tactics for a future changes.
By the way, have you noticed an auxiliary grenade launchers for Elisia (free!) and ability to take two pistols for Krieg? Both options look interesting.
The problem with BA now, is that they can't deep strike on turn 1. If you're playing against BA, all you have to do is swap the mid field table and your deployment zone in turn 1, and he can't deep strike anywhere close to being useful even with the 3d6 charge.
It's a Beta rule and probably will not be mandatory for half a year (if it ever will). It's plenty of time to win some events, have fun and prepare some new tactics for a future changes.
By the way, have you noticed an auxiliary grenade launchers for Elisia (free!) and ability to take two pistols for Krieg? Both options look interesting.
I fully expect all the beta rules to be in effect at the london GT and another event i'm going to this year, i'm afraid :/
Yeah, noticed that! Pretty interesting. It's also interesting how Elysians can deep strike in valkryies and then disembark. Not sure how useful it'll be but, interesting.
What? Why would that be changed? As far as I can tell, grinding advance is alive and well.
I thought the double shots from grinding advance came from the last faq, so hence the lack of inclusion in this faq negates that? like how the absence of the summary execution from the previous faq buffs commissars?
Naix wrote: I thought the double shots from grinding advance came from the last faq, so hence the lack of inclusion in this faq negates that? like how the absence of the summary execution from the previous faq buffs commissars?
You're looking in the wrong place - the Grinding Advance errata is in the Codex: Astra Militarum FAQ. It's the very first item.
So, with the huge nerfs to turn 1 DS, the ruling on preventing charges to units in ruins, and the limiting of everyone els's big guns to 0-3 while we can potentially field up to 9 Basilisks/Russes. Are guard back in play as mono faction in competitive?
RogueApiary wrote: So, with the huge nerfs to turn 1 DS, the ruling on preventing charges to units in ruins, and the limiting of everyone els's big guns to 0-3 while we can potentially field up to 9 Basilisks/Russes. Are guard back in play as mono faction in competitive?
They were always competitive, just difficult to pull absolute top table results, especially in ITC.
Now we're back to the first week of our codex power. Almost every threat we've been building to fight got taken down a peg and anything a serious "pure" guard army was using is almost completely unaffected. The only players with guard units getting screwed were the super soup players and guys who were using relic of cadia every turn.
The big problem is we're still slow and lack really elite units aside from bullgryn. Turn 1 especially we'll struggle to take objectives in maelstrom and ITC events, but we have a way better chance to survive the turn 1 alpha strike and grind a person down over the game.
It's funny, with the new detachment CP amounts, I'm seriously questioning whether it's even necessary to take a battery commander. We have extremely powerful warlord traits that were only really being edged out because of lack of CP for most armies. Go back and re-read the IG command traits, Old Grudges, draconian disciplinarian (Lord commissar version thanks to how he works with the FAQ makes conscripts useable outside valhallans and is dirt cheap)
master of command and Cadia's Superior tactical Training all have potential now that you don't need to so jealously horde CP. Old Grudges especially will be big if things like mortarion get popular or the new knights prove to be powerful.
Oh yeah and a couple of other things. Commissars are a good buy now for leadership. A regular one is half the price of a command squad with flag and a Lord provides ld 9 for 31pts. They're pretty good little counterattack units, a regular commissar with a power axe is 20pts, and thanks to how their rule is worded, proper placement defeats most leadership debuffs in the game. When you are in a commissar's bubble, you can elect to use HIS leadership. That means if someone has a -3 leadership on your guard squad and the commissar isn't being affected, you should be fine as his leadership is still at base. It's a niche thing but handy versus eldar planes and night Lord's.
Another addendum, alpha strike assaults are far from dead, they'll just be less common... I think. Raven guard, alpha legion, and any other "infiltrate" ability is unaffected by the FAQ. I would not be surprised to see detachments containing these kinds of units splashed into other lists in the future. Screens are still very important, it's just now they have a chance to move up most of the time.
RogueApiary wrote: So, with the huge nerfs to turn 1 DS, the ruling on preventing charges to units in ruins, and the limiting of everyone els's big guns to 0-3 while we can potentially field up to 9 Basilisks/Russes. Are guard back in play as mono faction in competitive?
(Lord commissar version thanks to how he works with the FAQ makes conscripts useable outside valhallans and is dirt cheap)
Lord commissar's seem like they'd be decent even with infantry squads now tbh, 30 points for +2 leadership and reroll morale isn't that bad, and they can function as a hail mary melee character if you get charged. Not amazing by a long shot but they can help a little now as opposed to before.
Edit: So I just realised something, with the new data sheet limitation you're limited to a max of 12 leman russ's (3 squadrons of 3 and 3 TC), in the index however Leman russ's and Leman russ demolisher's were separate datasheets. Would that not mean you could get a total of 21 russ's ( 3 squadrons of 3 russ's, 3 squadrons of 3 demolisher's, and 3 TC) using the index?
RogueApiary wrote: So, with the huge nerfs to turn 1 DS, the ruling on preventing charges to units in ruins, and the limiting of everyone els's big guns to 0-3 while we can potentially field up to 9 Basilisks/Russes. Are guard back in play as mono faction in competitive?
(Lord commissar version thanks to how he works with the FAQ makes conscripts useable outside valhallans and is dirt cheap)
Lord commissar's seem like they'd be decent even with infantry squads now tbh, 30 points for +2 leadership and reroll morale isn't that bad, and they can function as a hail mary melee character if you get charged. Not amazing by a long shot but they can help a little now as opposed to before.
Edit: So I just realised something, with the new data sheet limitation you're limited to a max of 12 leman russ's (3 squadrons of 3 and 3 TC), in the index however Leman russ's and Leman russ demolisher's were separate datasheets. Would that not mean you could get a total of 21 russ's ( 3 squadrons of 3 russ's, 3 squadrons of 3 demolisher's, and 3 TC) using the index?
Pretty sure you have to use the most up to date datasheet for your model. In this case, the codex one invalidates all index LR datasheets. What it doesn't cover, however, is FW datasheets. So you can in theory roll with something absurd like 9 LR Annihilators, 9 conquerors, 9 stygies Vanquishers, 9 codex LR's, 3 tank commanders, and Pask.
Finally there is clarification that Baneblades can't fire overwatch if they are already in melee. I'm surprised that one took so long to get an answer for.
I rarely took more than 3 of anything other than troops anyway so I feel like Guard will generally be unaffected by that rule.
With new CP numbers for BNs and BDEs I am very eager to try out other warlord traits!
RogueApiary wrote: So, with the huge nerfs to turn 1 DS, the ruling on preventing charges to units in ruins, and the limiting of everyone els's big guns to 0-3 while we can potentially field up to 9 Basilisks/Russes. Are guard back in play as mono faction in competitive?
(Lord commissar version thanks to how he works with the FAQ makes conscripts useable outside valhallans and is dirt cheap)
Lord commissar's seem like they'd be decent even with infantry squads now tbh, 30 points for +2 leadership and reroll morale isn't that bad, and they can function as a hail mary melee character if you get charged. Not amazing by a long shot but they can help a little now as opposed to before.
Edit: So I just realised something, with the new data sheet limitation you're limited to a max of 12 leman russ's (3 squadrons of 3 and 3 TC), in the index however Leman russ's and Leman russ demolisher's were separate datasheets. Would that not mean you could get a total of 21 russ's ( 3 squadrons of 3 russ's, 3 squadrons of 3 demolisher's, and 3 TC) using the index?
Pretty sure you have to use the most up to date datasheet for your model. In this case, the codex one invalidates all index LR datasheets. What it doesn't cover, however, is FW datasheets. So you can in theory roll with something absurd like 9 LR Annihilators, 9 conquerors, 9 stygies Vanquishers, 9 codex LR's, 3 tank commanders, and Pask.
I think you're correct on both accounts. The 40 Leman Russ list is still alive and well as long as you sell your soul to Forge World.
Finally there is clarification that Baneblades can't fire overwatch if they are already in melee. I'm surprised that one took so long to get an answer for.
I rarely took more than 3 of anything other than troops anyway so I feel like Guard will generally be unaffected by that rule.
With new CP numbers for BNs and BDEs I am very eager to try out other warlord traits!
I always run him with my catachans but to be fair I always thought you couldn't call yourself catachans if you werent running marbo every game
For matched play he's decent but only being able to drop on turns 2-3 hurts and limits his ability to go back into reserve and hit again. His main use in my eyes is doing sneaky objective grabs, line breaker, and assassinating isolated squads or characters. For a paltry amount more though you can get a plasma Scion squad that is more consistent if a bit more one dimensional and less cool looking
RogueApiary wrote: So, with the huge nerfs to turn 1 DS, the ruling on preventing charges to units in ruins, and the limiting of everyone els's big guns to 0-3 while we can potentially field up to 9 Basilisks/Russes. Are guard back in play as mono faction in competitive?
Heavy Support
Leman Russ Conqueror: Heavy Bolter, Coaxial Storm Bolter, Storm Bolter 157 pts. <CATACHAN>
Leman Russ Conqueror: Heavy Bolter, Coaxial Storm Bolter, Storm Bolter 157 pts. <CATACHAN>
Leman Russ Conqueror: Heavy Bolter, Coaxial Storm Bolter, Storm Bolter 157 pts. <CATACHAN>
Detachment II: Battalion <CADIAN>
HQ Company Commander: 30 pts. <CADIAN> Warlord Trait: Grand Strategist Relic: Kirov’s Aquila
Company Commander: 30 pts. <CADIAN> Relic: Relic Of Lost Cadia
Heavy Support
Basilisks: x3 Basilisks with Heavy Bolter 324 pts. <CADIAN>
Basilisks: x3 Basilisks with Heavy Bolter 324 pts. <CADIAN>
Basilisks: x3 Basilisks with Heavy Bolter 324 pts. <CADIAN>
Hydra: 108 pts. <CADIAN>
Finally there is clarification that Baneblades can't fire overwatch if they are already in melee. I'm surprised that one took so long to get an answer for.
I rarely took more than 3 of anything other than troops anyway so I feel like Guard will generally be unaffected by that rule.
With new CP numbers for BNs and BDEs I am very eager to try out other warlord traits!
I'm not sure to understand: why the new CP numbers would affect warlord traits? Because Grand Strategist might not be an auto-include anymore?
Finally there is clarification that Baneblades can't fire overwatch if they are already in melee. I'm surprised that one took so long to get an answer for.
I rarely took more than 3 of anything other than troops anyway so I feel like Guard will generally be unaffected by that rule.
With new CP numbers for BNs and BDEs I am very eager to try out other warlord traits!
I'm not sure to understand: why the new CP numbers would affect warlord traits? Because Grand Strategist might not be an auto-include anymore?
Precisely. If you have enough CP's to use without grand strategist and indeed with it end up more than you end up using(I struggled to use all cp's with warlord trait+heirloom and brigade!) there's no point taking that warlord trait. You can just take something other since you don't in practice notice less CP's.
IG isn't most CP hungry army out there. Think that trait is now more of soup army usage rather than pure IG.
For matched play he's decent but only being able to drop on turns 2-3 hurts and limits his ability to go back into reserve and hit again.
Why only deepstrike on turns 2-3? His explosives ability only states that he has to arrive on the field, it doesn't state where, couldn't you just deepstrike into your deployment zone turn 1 (in keeping with the new reserves rule) then carry on like normal on turns 2 and 3?.
Marbo shouldn't get destroyed because he doesn't go back into reserves, he is "removed from the battlefield" until the end of your next movement phase. Its the same ruling with GSC return to the shadows stratagem and the mawlocs terror from the deep ability
C4790M wrote: Marbo shouldn't get destroyed because he doesn't go back into reserves, he is "removed from the battlefield" until the end of your next movement phase. Its the same ruling with GSC return to the shadows stratagem and the mawlocs terror from the deep ability
C4790M wrote:Marbo shouldn't get destroyed because he doesn't go back into reserves, he is "removed from the battlefield" until the end of your next movement phase. Its the same ruling with GSC return to the shadows stratagem and the mawlocs terror from the deep ability
gbghg wrote:
For matched play he's decent but only being able to drop on turns 2-3 hurts and limits his ability to go back into reserve and hit again.
Why only deepstrike on turns 2-3? His explosives ability only states that he has to arrive on the field, it doesn't state where, couldn't you just deepstrike into your deployment zone turn 1 (in keeping with the new reserves rule) then carry on like normal on turns 2 and 3?.
Huh, both good points, I take that back then. That gives him a lot more utility. Still not sure if he's *better* than Stormtroopers but it definitely helps. I always used to combo him with Stormtroopers in the old days so I guess I'll be doing that again when I run catachans. He was a good 1-2 lunch, shoot the enemy with Stormtroopers then charge with marbo to buy them breathing room. With "stalk" he can pull it off pretty reliably, at least as reliably as IG will get.
Yeah I never realized he wouldn't be destroyed by pulling him off the battlefield after turn 3. That makes him way more useful for late game OBJ grabbing! Damn he is totally worth it in that regard! Especially with new character targeting rules.
C4790M wrote: Marbo shouldn't get destroyed because he doesn't go back into reserves, he is "removed from the battlefield" until the end of your next movement phase. Its the same ruling with GSC return to the shadows stratagem and the mawlocs terror from the deep ability
Except that another FAQ clarifies that any units that are removed from the battlefield and redeployed are counted as arriving from reserves. So that kind of complicates things. If they arrive from reserves, were they considered to be in reserves, and thus get destroyed? Or does it apply to other rules that interact with arriving from reserves? Clarification is definitely needed.
Not much has changed for me. Still going to run pask. Just with 2 tank commanders as well. With the shadowsword.
Commisar just for a cheap HQ.
Running 4x power lifter sentinel vs 2. They are just TOO good.
Most game I end up winning by beating the opponent down. At the end of turn 6 I start to get ahead in points and they don't have anything to deal with my armour.
gendoikari87 wrote: So anyone know how we’re going to deal with the salt mountains now that we’ve survived the faq unscathed?
That is only a continuation of the status quo, so proceed with whatever you did before?
Part of the problem with addressing this issue is that many of the loudest negative voices either play against opponents who cheat or who do not play the rules correctly. Obviously an army can be stronger than its rules if the pilot stretches the rules to increase its efficiency across the board. As an example, one individual here who frequently complains about IG and their experiences playing against them regularly recently posted this:
Mortar team 1: Rolls for shots, rerolls for catachan, rolls to hit, rolls to wound, opponent rolls to save, chooses losses
While applying the Catachan rule to infantry weapons does not break the game, doing that with a few rules will definitely increase the power of the army beyond what it should be.
Just from personal experience, the opponent who gives me the most trouble in competitive play is not someone who plays an OP army or list but someone who understands how IG work, what I am trying to do and tries to stop that within the scope of what they can do and what the mission objectives are.
Gnollu wrote: AFAIK it was faqed but I cant find this.
Pask was prohibited from ordering himself in the original FAQ for the Index. As the wording of the rule has been changed and there is a Codex the current Index FAQ has removed that question completely.
Understanding how the wording of that rule works is important to understanding a lot of 8th edition as a whole. When you have a chance can you clarify what part of the rule is confusing or unclear? Resolving that question will hopefully help you understand the nuance in 8th much better.
Alpharius Walks wrote: Understanding how the wording of that rule works is important to understanding a lot of 8th edition as a whole. When you have a chance can you clarify what part of the rule is confusing or unclear? Resolving that question will hopefully help you understand the nuance in 8th much better.
Codex states for Tank Commander that for Tank Order:
This model can issue one order each turn to a friendly <REGIMENT> LEMAN RUSS ...... To issue a tank order, pick a target LEMAN RUSS within 6'' if this model.....
Same goes for Pask
Can Tank Commander choose himself as "friendly <REGIMENT> LEMAN RUSS to issue tank order? He is friendly and within 6'' to himself actually
Gnollu wrote: Just to clarify
Currently Pask and Tank Commanders are able to order themselves or only each other?
GW specifically said that Pask cannot order himself.
Automatically Appended Next Post: But pask can order tank commanders. So thats pretty decent. 2 Lemons hitting on 3's re-rolling 1's. Rerolling the number of battlecannon shots. And pask hitting on 2's.
Going to be using all plasma sponsons.
Anybody use the Salamander Scout Vehicle? Im converting one. I love things with scout and it will make a great addition to the Powerlifter Sentinels.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Units with Scout have been so important to my list which is heavy mech.
I had a game vs a heavy deep strike army. Scouted up with 2 units. Set Ratlings up somehwere.
Went first and scouted up more for board control and when my opponent went first even with a turn1 Deepstrile he had to deepstrike basically in his own deployment zone anyways.
Rhino the language restricting Pask was removed from the Index FAQ and does not appear in the Codex FAQ.
Gnollu you got it, when you issue the order check that the target has the appropriate Regiment faction key word and the appropriate Leman Russ key word. So Pask would be a Cadian Leman Russ. For further clarification on a character being in range of their own aura you can also see the language on Aura Abilities in the core rulebook or the online battle primer.
Gnollu wrote: AFAIK it was faqed but I cant find this.
Pask was prohibited from ordering himself in the original FAQ for the Index. As the wording of the rule has been changed and there is a Codex the current Index FAQ has removed that question completely.
Gnollu wrote: Just to clarify
Currently Pask and Tank Commanders are able to order themselves or only each other?
GW specifically said that Pask cannot order himself.
Index: Imperium 2 Pask could not order himself, just as Tank Commanders could not order themselves, because they weren't allowed to order Characters.
Codex: Astra Militarum Pask and Tank Commanders can order themselves and each other. The "unit you pick cannot be a CHARACTER" was intentionally omitted to allow this.
Gnollu wrote: Just to clarify
Currently Pask and Tank Commanders are able to order themselves or only each other?
GW specifically said that Pask cannot order himself.
Index: Imperium 2 Pask could not order himself, just as Tank Commanders could not order themselves, because they weren't allowed to order Characters.
Codex: Astra Militarum Pask and Tank Commanders can order themselves and each other. The "unit you pick cannot be a CHARACTER" was intentionally omitted to allow this.
No kidding. Thats great. Admittedly I havent looked into it since GW was pretty blunt about this.
Now it seems like taking him as a warlord and getting a possible 3 orders would be good. Shoot and smoke for him. Pound them to dust for my two battlecannon LRs.
The FAQ that said that Pask and Tank Commanders cannot order themselves began in Imperium Index 2 FAQ 1.1 and continued in FAQ 1.2. It was removed from FAQ 1.3.
As stated by others, there was never a limitation in the Codex or its FAQs, v1.0 and 1.1.
Time to make the enemy pay dearly. Make the salty tears flow, lads!
So does a long range alphastrike auto-win now? It seems like a variation on the old 5th edition alpha-strike would just steamroll over just about anything else.
Heavy Support
. Basilisk: Heavy Bolter
. Basilisk: Heavy Bolter
. Basilisk: Heavy Bolter
. Hydra: Heavy Bolter
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolter
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolter
I just slapped that together. You could probably optimize it further. Standard parking lot deployment, mortar infantry up front with lascannon infantry behind them. SWS and Command Squads go with platoon commanders in Valks. If they have screens, move valks to create flank and force any potential T2 deep strikers to prioritize targets. If they don't have screens, move Valks forward, deploy, and move infantry to range. Character assassinate with Mordian order if it makes sense, otherwise order meltas/plasmas with whatever order makes the most sense. Everything else does what's obvious.
The hydra is in there just for convenient flying targets, but if it doesn't make sense, it can be switched evenly for a fourth Basilisk.
Am I missing something glaringly obvious with the new faq where this would actually struggle against anything?
daedalus wrote: So does a long range alphastrike auto-win now?
I do not think it is auto-win, but it is a decent choice... as it was since 8-th's start.
As for your list, I can make some suggestions:
1. Forget about meltaguns. You need to be really close to utilise melta rule and it will probably never happen. Plasma is a king in 8-th.
2. Give Plasma to BS 3+ models, not 4+ if you can. It's an expensive weapon -- try to make every shot count.
3. Forget about lascannons, really. Or try them using proxy but do not assemble you HWT's with them, you WILL want to have Mortars and HBs instead.
4. Take more Tank Commanders, it is so good to hit enemy at 3+ re-rolling 1-s... And take them in separate Supreme Command detachment with Cadian, Catachan or Tallarn doctrine (your choice).
5. Do not forget you LRs have sponsons. You play a hefty price for a tough gun platform so put as many guns on it as you can.
6. And drop Hydra, it sucks. I mean completely sucks, almost as much as Deathstrike.
I was wondering the same thing...I call this the "List of 3"...lol...it's from memory as it's sitting on my desktop at home and I do my lists in excel now so it's a little error prone...I'll probably get creamed but will make for some nice pictures with all that armor on the table
As for your list, I can make some suggestions:
1. Forget about meltaguns. You need to be really close to utilise melta rule and it will probably never happen. Plasma is a king in 8-th.
2. Give Plasma to BS 3+ models, not 4+ if you can. It's an expensive weapon -- try to make every shot count.
3. Forget about lascannons, really. Or try them using proxy but do not assemble you HWT's with them, you WILL want to have Mortars and HBs instead.
4. Take more Tank Commanders, it is so good to hit enemy at 3+ re-rolling 1-s... And take them in separate Supreme Command detachment with Cadian, Catachan or Tallarn doctrine (your choice).
5. Do not forget you LRs have sponsons. You play a hefty price for a tough gun platform so put as many guns on it as you can.
6. And drop Hydra, it sucks. I mean completely sucks, almost as much as Deathstrike.
1. Can't you still move after deploying from the Valkyrie? If so I have a 100% chance of getting within 3" of the closest enemy (Grav-chute 9" away, move up 6"). If they don't have any screens, which is going to at least be more of a possibility now, my thinking is that I can tag SOMETHING with them with range to spare.
2. I can agree with this, generally speaking. If I'm wrong about number 1, then I'd probably turn the SWS and CS into plasma.
3. Mortars are good for how cheap they are, but I'm not convinced that some more lascannons wouldn't be essential. I guess I could put them on tanks...
4. I like this idea, but I feel like quantity trumps quality. Maybe at least one more would be justified. It's almost a third of a russ to get +1 BS and an order. Obviously some are useful, but are they really worth a supreme command detachment with three when I could have four normal ones instead?
5. This is a good point. It's pretty cheap to toss two more heavy bolters onto a tank. I need to rethink that part.
6. I don't like the hydra much either to be honest, but it feels like one would be super useful against Xenos. At least for the purposes of confusing target priority. I should run the numbers against a fire prism vs another basilisk.
1. Can't you still move after deploying from the Valkyrie? If so I have a 100% chance of getting within 3" of the closest enemy (Grav-chute 9" away, move up 6"). If they don't have any screens, which is going to at least be more of a possibility now, my thinking is that I can tag SOMETHING with them with range to spare.
I think you can but "If they don't have any screens" is a pretty big assumption, I personally would not bet on it. Or at least wait a month or so before glueing meltaguns to your infantrymen and look how your local metagame change.
4. I like this idea, but I feel like quantity trumps quality. Maybe at least one more would be justified. It's almost a third of a russ to get +1 BS and an order. Obviously some are useful, but are they really worth a supreme command detachment with three when I could have four normal ones instead?
I tried both and from my experience LR's efficiency really drops without orders. LR Commanders being able to order themselves are way better then regular tanks. And that +1 to BS becomes critical when your enemy have -1 or -2 to-hit modifier that is a common situation today. Hitting at 5+ instead of 6+ means dealing 2 times more damage. That makes a huge difference.
I think you can but "If they don't have any screens" is a pretty big assumption, I personally would not bet on it. Or at least wait a month or so before glueing meltaguns to your infantrymen and look how your local metagame change.
They're kasrkin. The meltaguns aren't removable.
I guess we'll need to see where the meta lands though.
I tried both and from my experience LR's efficiency really drops without orders. LR Commanders being able to order themselves are way better then regular tanks. And that +1 to BS becomes critical when your enemy have -1 or -2 to-hit modifier that is a common situation today. Hitting at 5+ instead of 6+ means dealing 2 times more damage. That makes a huge difference.
This is helpful. The negative modifiers are a very good point, and there's not much else we can do about that. I will need to reconsider this for sure.
daedalus wrote: So does a long range alphastrike auto-win now?
I do not think it is auto-win, but it is a decent choice... as it was since 8-th's start.
As for your list, I can make some suggestions:
1. Forget about meltaguns. You need to be really close to utilise melta rule and it will probably never happen. Plasma is a king in 8-th.
2. Give Plasma to BS 3+ models, not 4+ if you can. It's an expensive weapon -- try to make every shot count.
3. Forget about lascannons, really. Or try them using proxy but do not assemble you HWT's with them, you WILL want to have Mortars and HBs instead.
4. Take more Tank Commanders, it is so good to hit enemy at 3+ re-rolling 1-s... And take them in separate Supreme Command detachment with Cadian, Catachan or Tallarn doctrine (your choice).
5. Do not forget you LRs have sponsons. You play a hefty price for a tough gun platform so put as many guns on it as you can.
6. And drop Hydra, it sucks. I mean completely sucks, almost as much as Deathstrike.
1.sadly got to agree here, meltas are way too expensive most of the time
2.disagree here. Plasma is almost twice as much per model on 3+ over 4+, and the models carrying these weapons are 2/3rd's the price. It is absolutely worth it to bring the BS 4+ in most situations. For just 7pts youd be crazy to not plasma on regular infantry, it's a steal.
3.it makes sense for regular infantry squads and or vets. It hits hard and can pull heat away from your heavy hitters. A few mixed into my second line infantry squads has never let me down. First rank should be cheap, which is where mortars or heavy bolters shine. Granted I play infantry heavy so my first line is most people's entire infantry complement, but the point stands.
4. They're powerful but it depends on format. In ITC they're a trap, they give up a hideous amount of points and you can only take 3 of them. Depending on secondaries they can give up 2-3pts apiece. In regular format they're too few to make their presence known. Russe's win in bulk, there's a reason everyone online complaining about them complains of "armies of tanks" not a few tank commanders running about. In small numbers the enemy's AT is able to cope, even with strike and shroud. You just can't overwhelm their AT at 2000pts.
5. Sponsons are incredibly dependent on regiment and number of tanks. A few token tallarn tank commanders? Absolutely worth it. A ten strong Catachans tank company? Hardly, I'd rather have another tank. Keep in mind what your tanks are planning to do and act accordingly.
6.yeah I really want to like them but they really look terrible for the points sadly.
Has anyone had Hydras work for them? I want to like them but when an Icarus onager is such a small amount more for so much extra firepower they're hard to justify.
I've run as many of four catachan bare bones LRBTs, plus three hellhounds. Sure, you might smoke one tank a turn, but it's still a lot more firing. The basic battle cannon, especially with Brutal Strength, actually does work, and that's what I love to focus on.
Last time I saw it ruled at a tournament, the consensus was that infantry commanders can order themselves, but tank commanders can only order other tanks.
Wulfey wrote: Last time I saw it ruled at a tournament, the consensus was that infantry commanders can order themselves, but tank commanders can only order other tanks.
Either that was pre-codex or tournament was playing it wrong.
Requirement for tank order are: a) range b) leman russ keword. commander is unsurprisingly close enough of himself and he has leman russ keyword.
NOTHING in codex says otherwise. Only place that prevented was index but wording was specifically changed. You don't use index rules for units that have entry on codex. Otherwise commissars would still make morale tests autopass!
Wulfey wrote: Last time I saw it ruled at a tournament, the consensus was that infantry commanders can order themselves, but tank commanders can only order other tanks.
Either that was pre-codex or tournament was playing it wrong.
Requirement for tank order are: a) range b) leman russ keword. commander is unsurprisingly close enough of himself and he has leman russ keyword.
NOTHING in codex says otherwise. Only place that prevented was index but wording was specifically changed. You don't use index rules for units that have entry on codex. Otherwise commissars would still make morale tests autopass!
Yeah even if we go by RAI, commanders have been able to order themselves since at least 5th edition, which to my knowledge is when orders dropped. Other than the brief period in index 8th when tank commanders couldn't order themselves commanders (tank and infantry) have always been able to order themselves.
Hey guys, I have no idea where to start with the Leman Russ varients. Are any worth using besides the standard battle tank? And is it worth chucking sponsons on them?
Thanks
Tiberius501 wrote: Hey guys, I have no idea where to start with the Leman Russ varients. Are any worth using besides the standard battle tank? And is it worth chucking sponsons on them?
Thanks
IMHO, the four variants that usually appear in competitive lists are: Standard LRBT, Conqueror (if forgeworld models are used), Executioner and Punisher. I rarely see more than one Punisher per list, and the Executioner is dependent on having the ability to reroll 1's, such as tank orders for example.
And lists seems to have either a few tank commanders with sponsons. (better against -1 to hit effects) Or a lot of cheap russes without sponsons (better resilience).
Tiberius501 wrote: Hey guys, I have no idea where to start with the Leman Russ varients. Are any worth using besides the standard battle tank? And is it worth chucking sponsons on them?
Thanks
As Mellon said, Punishers, LRBT, Conquerors. Id add the Annihilator to that list if you want a dediacted anti-tank... tank. 5 lascannon shots can be pretty devastating.
As to sponsons, it depends. If youre running cadia or tallarn, almost always yes. If youre running anything else, almost always no. Though Tank commanders are the exception here, they can always use the extra firepower, no matter what regiment youre running. It usually pays to keep costs down though, so HBs should be your number one choice for sponsons. *maybe* Plasma cannons, if and only if youre running cadia.
Tiberius501 wrote: Hey guys, I have no idea where to start with the Leman Russ varients. Are any worth using besides the standard battle tank? And is it worth chucking sponsons on them?
Thanks
I agree with previous answers. However I'd add Leman Russ Executioner with plasma sponsons is great. On a commander. On a Cadian Tank. Or on a Catachan and then keep Harker nearby. The re-roll 1's will see you blasting enemies left and right with little risk. The LRBT is a great generalist and always worth bringing frankly. But they almost all have their benefits so I wouldn't discount many. The Exterminator could be better though and generally isn't worth it. The eradicator is a surprise, at a glance it seems terrible, but the cover ignoring can be a god send against cover loving infantry like scouts or GEQs. Lastly, the vanquisher. Don't take it. It looks cool, but it is terrible and clear evidence that GW has issues with maths. It's a dedicated tank hunter as much as it's a tank. But it is out performed in AT by Annihilators and the humble LRBT.
My favorites are in no particular order the Executioner, the Annihilators, and the standard Leman Russ Battle Tank. I typically take a standard Russ with lascannon as many of mine are the old style with only that option. Annihilators I typically take with heavy bolter sponsons and hull bolter for when there are no hard targets. Executioners are almost always commanders with plasma sponsons and lascannon (mine is modeled that way).
I find a mix of at least one regular Russ for every "special" Russ serves me well. The bog standard Russ can fight anything in the game to some degree and is useful with every regiment trait, so it makes sense for them to be your backbone. Specialist tanks fill niches like heavy armor or plasma, but the standard Russe's help cover gaps. I've never tried a punisher since as an infantry player it's unnecessary, but i can definitely see them pulling their weight in armored companies.
The only tanks I'm iffy on are exterminators, demolishers, and vanquishers. Other units do their jobs better in most situations and they often lack in damage output. It's a shame but something you need to know if you're going to run tanks.
This list is a bit newer, but very similar to variants I ran before. It's fairly successful. Executioners with Plasma are pretty good all rounder units, good for anti tank and for anti infantry as well. Punishers are really effective at anti-infantry/horde control.
Battle tanks IMHO while good, have certain issues. They are both very similar, but variable damage is a bit of an issue, plus being AP2 vs AP3 on overcharged plasma. But the cost is the whole 1 mortal wound thing, which is why tank commanders are a must in plasma tanks (tho an argument can be made that you can order others to have re-rolls). It's a trade off, but I prefer Battle tanks to plasma for normal LRs.
Generally those are the 3 best ones. Vanquishers are useless because of their lack of volume of fire. Really for a dedicated anti tank platform, you're better off using a Plasma tank, or a battle tank. Demolishers are okay. They aren't terrible but number of shots are meh and also they critically lack range.
The other 2 I've never used, and aren't really great this edition as I understand it.
Sponsons Imo are useful, but it's important to remember that I do run Tallarn, so they have no penalties to move and hit. Depends on your strategy and what you want your tanks to do. My tanks are basically being used as the main heavy hitters of the list. If yours are just fire support or something for some other models, then that might change what you want.
daedalus wrote: So does a long range alphastrike auto-win now?
I do not think it is auto-win, but it is a decent choice... as it was since 8-th's start.
As for your list, I can make some suggestions:
1. Forget about meltaguns. You need to be really close to utilise melta rule and it will probably never happen. Plasma is a king in 8-th.
2. Give Plasma to BS 3+ models, not 4+ if you can. It's an expensive weapon -- try to make every shot count.
3. Forget about lascannons, really. Or try them using proxy but do not assemble you HWT's with them, you WILL want to have Mortars and HBs instead.
4. Take more Tank Commanders, it is so good to hit enemy at 3+ re-rolling 1-s... And take them in separate Supreme Command detachment with Cadian, Catachan or Tallarn doctrine (your choice).
5. Do not forget you LRs have sponsons. You play a hefty price for a tough gun platform so put as many guns on it as you can.
6. And drop Hydra, it sucks. I mean completely sucks, almost as much as Deathstrike.
1.sadly got to agree here, meltas are way too expensive most of the time
2.disagree here. Plasma is almost twice as much per model on 3+ over 4+, and the models carrying these weapons are 2/3rd's the price. It is absolutely worth it to bring the BS 4+ in most situations. For just 7pts youd be crazy to not plasma on regular infantry, it's a steal.
3.it makes sense for regular infantry squads and or vets. It hits hard and can pull heat away from your heavy hitters. A few mixed into my second line infantry squads has never let me down. First rank should be cheap, which is where mortars or heavy bolters shine. Granted I play infantry heavy so my first line is most people's entire infantry complement, but the point stands.
4. They're powerful but it depends on format. In ITC they're a trap, they give up a hideous amount of points and you can only take 3 of them. Depending on secondaries they can give up 2-3pts apiece. In regular format they're too few to make their presence known. Russe's win in bulk, there's a reason everyone online complaining about them complains of "armies of tanks" not a few tank commanders running about. In small numbers the enemy's AT is able to cope, even with strike and shroud. You just can't overwhelm their AT at 2000pts.
5. Sponsons are incredibly dependent on regiment and number of tanks. A few token tallarn tank commanders? Absolutely worth it. A ten strong Catachans tank company? Hardly, I'd rather have another tank. Keep in mind what your tanks are planning to do and act accordingly.
6.yeah I really want to like them but they really look terrible for the points sadly.
Has anyone had Hydras work for them? I want to like them but when an Icarus onager is such a small amount more for so much extra firepower they're hard to justify.
To piggyback here on a few things:
first, plasma on 4+ is 100% worth it. plasma on a 3+ is a 71% cost increase for only a 33% hit increase. simple.
second, I did the math on hydra vs basilisk on a wave serpent (much more relevant, IMO. wave serpents are the best transport in the game, and eldar love troops). Basilisk comes out on top. I'm sure there will be fringe cases, but most FLY units have more than 2 wounds. I guess it's great for flying primaris marines? even then the AP-1 is pretty garbage, and the vehicle might as well blow itself up on turn 1 with t6(!!!!) w11 3+. And that's without mentioning that for some reason it has a -1 to hit everything that doesn't fly...
Edit: Oh and lascannons are great. I like them in infantry squads, especially Cadian. Anywhere from just 1 squad with one to hang back and screen, not move, and get full rerolls with Take Aim! to make them BS 2.5ish (better than 3+... 75% hit rate)
I have a question about my Tallarn Tank Commander. Pre FAQ I would use the Stratagem to outflank him and then use the Tank Order to move him 6”.
Now that most units you can’t move after deepstriking, does this also go for the Tank Commander in this specific case?
davidgr33n wrote: I have a question about my Tallarn Tank Commander. Pre FAQ I would use the Stratagem to outflank him and then use the Tank Order to move him 6”.
Now that most units you can’t move after deepstriking, does this also go for the Tank Commander in this specific case?
davidgr33n wrote: I have a question about my Tallarn Tank Commander. Pre FAQ I would use the Stratagem to outflank him and then use the Tank Order to move him 6”.
Now that most units you can’t move after deepstriking, does this also go for the Tank Commander in this specific case?
He is set up as a reinforcement and the faq says you can't move for any reason so yes it should apply to the Tank Order
the.cobb wrote: Scouting sentinels just became a little less useful :-( less use for pushing out that deep strike bubble before turn 1 now.
Maybe not a brigade auto-include anymore. What are people thinking about fast attack choices?
Alpha legion etc still might make useful? Though with battallion change not sure is brigade indeed much use. 2 battallion=13 CP. 3 battallion=18. And less tax units needd. OTOH sentinels aren't worse tax and even elite got maybe semi useful cheap tax in form of 15 pts commisars who aren't automatically killing guys. Troop and HS are of course no tax
But generally I struggled to use all CP with ~12 with the grand strategist so with new CP's think 2 battallions are more than enough for me. No need for brigade.
Apart from sentinel not fan of any FA :-/ Especially in terms of filling brigade. Maybe rough rider squad but that's about it.
the.cobb wrote: Scouting sentinels just became a little less useful :-( less use for pushing out that deep strike bubble before turn 1 now.
Maybe not a brigade auto-include anymore. What are people thinking about fast attack choices?
Rough Riders. Always Rough Riders. But in all seriousness they're not bad to fill one slot. Scout sentinels can still be useful for rooting out infiltrators, or to push back people who deepstrike before turn 1 (The Deciever for example), assuming you're going first that is.
Hellhounds and their variants can often be a solid choice to act as faster, lighter tanks to support your heavier tanks or act as rapid response. Armoured sentinels also have their uses because of the increased toughness and the plasma canon, which on a Cadian Sentinel can be pretty useful.
Lastly for all the jokes Rough Riders have their advantages thanks to flanking maneuvers although don't expect them to last more than a turn if your opponent doesn't want them there.
The FW offerings look handy, but since they're hard to get hold of I haven't used them so won't comment.
Fast Attack is in my opinion our worst slot, but cheap and cheerful is usually my aim.
davidgr33n wrote: I have a question about my Tallarn Tank Commander. Pre FAQ I would use the Stratagem to outflank him and then use the Tank Order to move him 6”.
Now that most units you can’t move after deepstriking, does this also go for the Tank Commander in this specific case?
I was working on one with triple heavy flamer just because it is fun to try and make flamers work. Fortunately nothing was glued in before the FAQ landed. While they could give the Tallarn TC an exemption by FAQ I doubt it will happen.
So what are people's thoughts on the leman Russ annihilator? Im thinking of grabbing one to switch out the turret on the second hand vanquisher I got a while back.
I’m running a patrol of Custodes with my brigade of cadians and a spearhead of catachans (Harker and 3 basilisks) for my ITC list.
Previously grand stratagist was an auto include because the custodes are thirsty dudes when it comes to CP (6CP minimum has to be set aside BEFORE turn 1). The increase in CPs for brigade is now making me consider old grudge which I would use in combo with the 3 x catachan basilisks and some cadian mortars.
Has anyone used grudges in competitive play? I think it could be pretty damn punchy when combined with 120” range, rerollable number of shots and hackers Reroll 1s. Ideally I would use it against any superheavies or monstrous creatures but equally so against larger heavily armoured high value units. Thoughts appreciated.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I’d still take the Aquila to recoup some CPs but its still a tough call.
gendoikari87 wrote: How many times a turn can you use the re roll strategem?
Once per pahse.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Did anyone notice the change to Steel Behemoth in the Imperial Armour FAQ? Looks like all the LoW tanks get the full rule now. Helps out my Macharius quite a bit!
gbghg wrote: So what are people's thoughts on the leman Russ annihilator? Im thinking of grabbing one to switch out the turret on the second hand vanquisher I got a while back.
Im a fan. Its a decent choice if you want a dedicated anti-tank vehicle. Plus, you can easily convert one from the exterminator weapon mount and two lascannons. And with a hullmounted LC, it can be pretty scary for anything big. Sure, only half of its cannons are going to hit, usually... but thats still a decent amount. Id rank it as one of the more useful variants. Its definitely not one of the never-takes, though its limited utility stops it from being an autotake. But one or even two can be a decent choice if youre lacking in AT.
gendoikari87 wrote: Oooh question... with so much cp and insane bravery stratagem.... are conscripts back?
What do Conscripts do that Infantry squads don't do better for the same points?
Receive defensive buffs (e.g. nightshroud, psychic barrier, go to ground). This is pretty powerful when you have the potential for 30 2+ save guys if you get them into cover (I've done this a couple of times). Also receiving offensive buffs such as 'vengeance for cadia'
I'd only run them either with valhallan, custodes fearless banner or Petrovs 45.
You can also take casualties off where you want from big units, and charge into brutal overwatch without worrying about the whole unit being wiped.
Not saying there aren't some major drawbacks, but I still think conscripts can have a place in competitive play.
Razerous wrote: Sgt Harker is still a thing right, buffing Catachan LR tanks?
Except that you can bring Conquerors that buff themselves even better. If you are not using FW Harker with Lemans and/or artillery tanks is still very competitive.
Razerous wrote: Sgt Harker is still a thing right, buffing Catachan LR tanks?
Except that you can bring Conquerors that buff themselves even better. If you are not using FW Harker with Lemans and/or artillery tanks is still very competitive.
Even with conquerers I run Harker alongside them until they are within 24" of what I want to shoot.
Razerous wrote: Sgt Harker is still a thing right, buffing Catachan LR tanks?
Except that you can bring Conquerors that buff themselves even better. If you are not using FW Harker with Lemans and/or artillery tanks is still very competitive.
The problem with Conquerors is finding them. FW don't sell them anymore and you're lucky if you see one on eBay.
I'm thinking about running a Tank Company now. I'm curious as to what people think is the Best doctrine to use. Plan on running mostly LR Conquerors with a few Punishers.
Cadian is seems great. Reroll shots order, +1 conditional hit strategem, Pask and Kell. Doctrine seems less useful then others.
Catachan seems to be the other great one. All tanks get to reroll D6s for shots, Harker, Stratagem is lacking and they don't do much for punishers.
Vostryan might be a sleeper, +1 To hit stratagem, 6" range increase really helps with the rerolls for the conquerors.
Another odd choice would be to take a "Make your own" Regiment and give them the Militarum Tempestus Bonus of extra shots on a 6+. No other bonuses or Stratagems however.
gbghg wrote: So what are people's thoughts on the leman Russ annihilator? Im thinking of grabbing one to switch out the turret on the second hand vanquisher I got a while back.
Im a fan. Its a decent choice if you want a dedicated anti-tank vehicle. Plus, you can easily convert one from the exterminator weapon mount and two lascannons. And with a hullmounted LC, it can be pretty scary for anything big. Sure, only half of its cannons are going to hit, usually... but thats still a decent amount. Id rank it as one of the more useful variants. Its definitely not one of the never-takes, though its limited utility stops it from being an autotake. But one or even two can be a decent choice if youre lacking in AT.
Note: a single bc is the equivalent of 3 lascannon. With a hull lc the bc Russ for the same points is better anti tank and also better meq. Bc >>>>>>>>>>>>>> annihilator
Nope. An annihilator is going to do almost an additional point of damage against T7 (3.05 vs 3.85) and 1.5 points of damage more against T8 (2.31 vs 3.85), both at 3+ saves. Thats just the turret guns, no hull LC.
Sure, the BC can be used as AT, but its higher amount of shots doesnt quite offset its lower damage output, lower strength and lower AP.
Razerous wrote: Sgt Harker is still a thing right, buffing Catachan LR tanks?
Except that you can bring Conquerors that buff themselves even better. If you are not using FW Harker with Lemans and/or artillery tanks is still very competitive.
The problem with Conquerors is finding them. FW don't sell them anymore and you're lucky if you see one on eBay.
I just took regular battlecannons and atrached storm.boltors.to the barrel, the conquerer is literally a battlecannon with a coaxial(on the same barrel) stormboltor. Easy conversion
thanks for the feedback guys, think i'm gonna grab one next time I order off forgeworld, they just look so cool and it's nice to hear it'll be better AT than the vanquisher at least.
gbghg wrote: thanks for the feedback guys, think i'm gonna grab one next time I order off forgeworld, they just look so cool and it's nice to hear it'll be better AT than the vanquisher at least.
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if a vanquishers weight in lasgun guardsmen was better AT to be honest. They're pretty bad.
The disappearance of the Elysian range made me thought: would a mechanized army (russes, mainly) supported by several deep striking units be an effective list ?
I wouldn't have screen and not much infantry
godardc wrote: The disappearance of the Elysian range made me thought: would a mechanized army (russes, mainly) supported by several deep striking units be an effective list ?
I wouldn't have screen and not much infantry
Still to much stuff in the game that can hit you turn 1 to not have screens.
You at least need a screen of conscripts or a few infantry squads. Given the buff to battalion CPs and still wanting some it is hard to get away with no infantry although you can always give it a shot.
necron99 wrote: So what's everyone's impression of hellhounds? I was going to drop my two wyverns for two hellhounds.
I like them, only used 1 in 1 low point game so far against my friend's eldar, it did decent work burning up his aspect warriors then won me the game by exploding next to his farseer and killing him when my friend finally managed to kill it.
I was going to argue that you're good to go because flanking isn't deepstriking, but it actually looks like not because the restriction is called out on page 5 of the main rulebook FAQ as no move or advance for units coming in as reinforcements. Since abilities that circumvent this restriction are disallowed in the paragraph right below it, your TC's "Full Throttle" order could not be used in this case.
godardc wrote: What did the faq changed for the manticores ?
He is salty they didn't get improved.
But they're already a pretty solid decent unit. Sure Guard BS lets it down on occasion, but that can be mitigated, and isn't the units fault.
Outshadowed by basilisk though. Well unless you are specifically aiming at 4+ or worse save guys aka infantry but then you are wasting d3 damage. And I would imagine IG isn't short on infantry killing power. If you want to kill anything with 3+ save or better get basilisk.
I really struggle to understand why people like Basilisks. I have one because I like the model, but I can never find a proper place for it in my lists. For a little over 100 pts. you get an average of 4 shots per turn, resulting in 2 hits (BS 4+) and after to-wound and save rolls you will probably end with one wound for D3 damage. It is pathetic. You can not use it to hunt elite infantry because it lacks volume of fire, you can not use it against vehicles or monsters because it deals too little damage per wound... basically you can not use it for anything. And the model itself is so big that you can not expect to hide it out of LOS that is critical for it's survival (T6 and 11 wounds is not a big deal).
If GW gave them an ability to shoot twice like LRs do, or boost BS to 3+ and damage to D6 (or better D3+3) they could be good, but now they are meh.
AstraVlad wrote: I really struggle to understand why people like Basilisks.
Functionally it natively possesses the Catachan Brute Force ability. This allows you to combine Catachan with Cadian re-roll 1's (without paying for Harker), the Cadian relic and Overlapping Fields of Fire. The other indirect fire platform (Manticore) gives up a lot more by going over to Cadia, leaving the Basilisk as a more natural fit in one of the better regiments. Of course as always individual players' results and preferences will vary.
I really struggle to understand why people like Basilisks. I have one because I like the model, but I can never find a proper place for it in my lists. For a little over 100 pts. you get an average of 4 shots per turn, resulting in 2 hits (BS 4+) and after to-wound and save rolls you will probably end with one wound for D3 damage. It is pathetic. You can not use it to hunt elite infantry because it lacks volume of fire, you can not use it against vehicles or monsters because it deals too little damage per wound... basically you can not use it for anything. And the model itself is so big that you can not expect to hide it out of LOS that is critical for it's survival (T6 and 11 wounds is not a big deal).
If GW gave them an ability to shoot twice like LRs do, or boost BS to 3+ and damage to D6 (or better D3+3) they could be good, but now they are meh.
I like them because I play cadians and i have a bad habit of rolling 1's, the extra point of AP comes in handy sometimes too. and i'd disagree with your point about targeting it at vehicles or monster's, it does the same damage per hit as the manticore but with an extra AP, my basilisk has done consistent work against enemy vehicles since i've started using it.
Do you play cyclop demolition vehicles ? IMHO they are better than in 7th. Today, thanks to my opponent bad placing and forgetting it, one killed about 10 plague marines and wounded severly a deamon prince and 2 characters. It was great to ''snipe'' characters like that.
necron99 wrote: So what's everyone's impression of hellhounds? I was going to drop my two wyverns for two hellhounds.
I like them, only used 1 in 1 low point game so far against my friend's eldar, it did decent work burning up his aspect warriors then won me the game by exploding next to his farseer and killing him when my friend finally managed to kill it.
I like mine, and think it is decent too. Not partcularly good, but not bad, and yeah, it can explode. I don't see myself removing it from my list. But be aware that you wyverns can shoot without los, so are more durable.
gbghg wrote: it does the same damage per hit as the manticore but with an extra AP
A problem is: Manticore makes twice the number of shots compared to Basilisk so it can be used against infantry (with Catachan doctrine it will be about 8 shots per turn). But I personally do not think even Manticores are good enough to take them. For a comparable price you can have LRBT that will shoot twice, benefit from the same doctrines, can be ordered to do some funny things and have a bunch of other weapons to shoot with. Yes you will loose out-of-LOS-shooting capability but I rarely see situations where I both:
1. Need out-of-LOS shooting.
2. Can not deal with the target using massed mortar fire.
Some very quick mathhammer of Basilisk, manticore and LRBT. If they want to do 10 damage to a T7 3+ target, how many points would you need to invest into each type of vehicle?
This calculation is oversimplified. Let's do a little more math.
At first we assume that all our tanks are taken in the Catachan detachment and have full reroll for amount of shots made for LR and re-roll of one of two dice for Manticore. Let's assume that we re-roll all 1s and 2s keeping 3+. Thus our average amount of shots from 1D6 will be 4,17. We also assume that they are not moving, so no penalty for shooting for artillery and we have double shooting for LRBT. We also forget about hull and sponson weapons for simplicity's sake.
Our contenders will be: 1. Command LRBT in basic configuration with 1 HB for 197 pts. 2. Manticore for 143 pts. 3. Basilisc for 108 pts.
We will take 5 of each and see how much damage they'll do and how many points we'll need to pay per wound.
LRBT does 2D6 shots with full re-roll or 8,33 shots. Manticore re-rolls 1 dice for an average of 4,17 and rolls another dice for 3,5 so it has about 7,67 shots. It is a bit more difficult to calculate a Basilisc because it effectively have 2 re-rolls of 1 dice (we roll 2 dice selecting the best roll, but can re-roll one dice for being Catachan). Let's be generous and give it an average of 5 shots. So from 5 models we'll have: - 41,7 shots for LRBT Commanders; - 38,3 shots for Manticores; - 25 shots for Basilisks.
Now we have to take aim. Tank Commanders hit at 3+ and can order themselves to re-roll 1s to-hit, so they hit 77,8% of shots or 32,4 shots total. Manticores and Basilisks hit 50% and make 19,2 and 12,5 hits respectively.
Every unit wounds T7 at 3+, so we can expect to have an average of 21,6 wounds for Tank Commanders, 12,8 wounds for Manticores and 8,3 wounds of Basilisks. Against LRBTs and Manticores our target will use the same 5+ save (AP -2) and roll 6+ against Basilisks (AP -3), that means that amount of unsaved wounds will be: - 25,21 for Tank Commanders; - 14,91 for Manticores; - 11,11 for Basilisks.
And we will pay: - 39,1 pts for 1 wound inflicted by LRBT; - 48 pts for 1 wound by Manticore; - 48,6 pts for 1 wound by Basilisks.
That's why we regularly see Tank Commanders on the tables: because they are the most cost-effective unit we have (even when we leave out of equation their hull and sponson weapons -- which we should not) and rarely see Basilisks.
With so many CP in an IG army the Ariel spotter stratagem is pretty awesome when used with a basilisk. It only works on one unit per turn but as I only take one it’s not an issue. Taking them with Valhallan doctrine would mean it would keep firing until the end.
I’m now taking two LTBT and a basilisk in a vostroyan spearhead detachment. The 30” coaxial plus the 4.9” move mitigates a lot of the issue associated with with the conqueror. The basilisk doesn’t benefit as much from the doctrine but the +1 to hit rolls at on 1 CP can be useful.
I’m still taking cadia for my brigade detachment. Reroll misses is exceptional for my 3x3 mortar heavy weapon teams. If I didn’t love Using CPs so much I’d love to combo them with the old grudge warlord trait.
I just came back from playing mostly 4th edition and some 5th. What's up with the cost of Chimeras and where are their special rules? 55 points to around 93 with weapons, I couldn't believe my eyes. Are they worth their points? I was thinking of using one as a Bullgryn limo.
This is a bit late but thanks everyone who answered my question about the best Leman Russ variants. Shame the Exterminator is no good, my favourite looking Death Korps tank because it looks so WWl French
Afrika wrote: I just came back from playing mostly 4th edition and some 5th. What's up with the cost of Chimeras and where are their special rules? 55 points to around 93 with weapons, I couldn't believe my eyes. Are they worth their points? I was thinking of using one as a Bullgryn limo.
Its how I use it. I run double flamers on it. If I go first I advance and just pop smoke. If my opponent shoots it great. Means they arent shooting my more valuable tanks. And if he doesnt also great. I have 4 giant dudes who are about to pop out and smash faces.
Tiberius501 wrote: This is a bit late but thanks everyone who answered my question about the best Leman Russ variants. Shame the Exterminator is no good, my favourite looking Death Korps tank because it looks so WWl French
It's not that it's no good (it's not as bad as the Vanquisher), it's just that there's better out there. You could probably make it work if you really wanted to!
Tiberius501 wrote: This is a bit late but thanks everyone who answered my question about the best Leman Russ variants. Shame the Exterminator is no good, my favourite looking Death Korps tank because it looks so WWl French
It's not that it's no good (it's not as bad as the Vanquisher), it's just that there's better out there. You could probably make it work if you really wanted to!
Yeah it's workable, it's outclassed by other variants, but there are some advantages to it. And if the army is more lore leaning then its faults shouldn't deter too much.
Afrika wrote: I just came back from playing mostly 4th edition and some 5th. What's up with the cost of Chimeras and where are their special rules? 55 points to around 93 with weapons, I couldn't believe my eyes. Are they worth their points? I was thinking of using one as a Bullgryn limo.
I have not found a worthwhile use for a Chimera in this game. They cost too many points (93 for the cheapest version) and IG can make better use of those points elsewhere. When your Chimera is destroyed, you have to roll a D6 for each passenger. For each roll of 1, a model is slain. That is very bad for high wound, high cost models with a 3+ Invulnerable Save. Their toughness, armor, number of wounds, and invuln saves are useless in that situation.
Afrika wrote: I just came back from playing mostly 4th edition and some 5th. What's up with the cost of Chimeras and where are their special rules?
They are gone. An Chimeras are gone with them. If you need transport you can always take Taurox but generally you'll be better off without metal boxes at all.
I like my gryphonne pattern chimera with twin heavy bolters in the turret with my tallarn list so they keep their BS. However, is this the most competitive? No. But it does keep my plasma special weapon teams alive. Love special weapons teams.
Taurox is about 20 points cheaper and packs a bigger punch with the twin autocannon.
Taurox Prime is the supreme leader of the metal bawks. For 20ish more point over the chimera, you get a nice amount of dakka with the Gatling and hot-shots. Drawback? Scions only. :(
But I do like my heavy bolter bawks with the gryphonne pattern. easy enough to convert as well. As stated above the heavy flamer delivery system is nice to bring dudes to the front line.
Colonel Cross wrote: Just played a game against new Tau with my Catachans last night. And damn, I was pretty jealous of a bunch of their Stratagems :/
I feel like rarely use any of our guard Stratagems other than leadership test on a D3 or Take Cover.
What is your list? I find it very odd you're not finding at least some of these strategems worthwhile. At the very least inspired command should be getting popped a lot for infantry and tank armies.
Yeah I use that on my tank Commander until he's gone.
Don't get me wrong, I managed to get first turn and just ruthlessly pummeled him. It was just annoying when I charged him and he pulled out some mortal wound Stratagem meanwhile my Catachans have to be completely in cover, pay a CP AND roll a 4+ for D3 mortal wounds.
Or their grenade Stratagem which is actually viable.
It's a minor thing. It was just noticed in my game because I play a pretty aggressive Catachan list and wasn't expecting these mortal wounds coming at my charging fireball Russ, Bullgryn, or Chimeras.
Afrika wrote: I just came back from playing mostly 4th edition and some 5th. What's up with the cost of Chimeras and where are their special rules?
They are gone. An Chimeras are gone with them. If you need transport you can always take Taurox but generally you'll be better off without metal boxes at all.
Dammit, i have Steel Legion and i haven't looked at the points in 8th but i have read the Regimental Doctrines and it seems very useful to have lasgun and plasma special weapons popping in and out of Chimeras
I only have two infantry platoons with two squads in each, and only four Chimeras; the Company Command Squad rides in a Vendetta, and i have two Valkyries for the two Platoon Command Squads
Tiberius501 wrote: This is a bit late but thanks everyone who answered my question about the best Leman Russ variants. Shame the Exterminator is no good, my favourite looking Death Korps tank because it looks so WWl French
It's not that it's no good (it's not as bad as the Vanquisher), it's just that there's better out there. You could probably make it work if you really wanted to!
Yeah it's workable, it's outclassed by other variants, but there are some advantages to it. And if the army is more lore leaning then its faults shouldn't deter too much.
Basically, you need to be shooting at exactly two wound models for it to really make a difference. Comparing the Exterminator cannon to the Battle Cannon, the Exterminator gets four shots compared to d6 (essentially 3.5), but loses a point of strength and AP, with a fixed D2 instead of D:d3. You also lose two feet of range!
AP is arguably the most important aspect of a weapon (with -2 and -3 being the sweet spot), and S8 helps against T4, T7, and T8, which ii a very wide spread of targets. It's a lot to give up for slightly more shots and more consistent damage.
You also run into the fact that you can throw autocannons on damn near anything in the list: infantry squads, heavy weapon squads, sentinels, Tauroxes, even chimeras.
CaptainO wrote: With so many CP in an IG army the Ariel spotter stratagem is pretty awesome when used with a basilisk. It only works on one unit per turn but as I only take one it’s not an issue. Taking them with Valhallan doctrine would mean it would keep firing until the end.
I’m now taking two LTBT and a basilisk in a vostroyan spearhead detachment. The 30” coaxial plus the 4.9” move mitigates a lot of the issue associated with with the conqueror. The basilisk doesn’t benefit as much from the doctrine but the +1 to hit rolls at on 1 CP can be useful.
I’m still taking cadia for my brigade detachment. Reroll misses is exceptional for my 3x3 mortar heavy weapon teams. If I didn’t love Using CPs so much I’d love to combo them with the old grudge warlord trait.
If you're willing to drop 2CP on Arial Spotter I think you're better off using Cadian Basilisks with Overlapping Fields of Fire (unless you're using that on plasSWS/scions). OFoF can affects every unit you have on the table as opposed to just 1 model and the +1 to hit coupled with Cadian rr 1s comes out better than rr all misses. Can also be coupled with Old Grudge
I really struggle to understand why people like Basilisks. I have one because I like the model, but I can never find a proper place for it in my lists. For a little over 100 pts. you get an average of 4 shots per turn, resulting in 2 hits (BS 4+) and after to-wound and save rolls you will probably end with one wound for D3 damage. It is pathetic. You can not use it to hunt elite infantry because it lacks volume of fire, you can not use it against vehicles or monsters because it deals too little damage per wound... basically you can not use it for anything. And the model itself is so big that you can not expect to hide it out of LOS that is critical for it's survival (T6 and 11 wounds is not a big deal).
If GW gave them an ability to shoot twice like LRs do, or boost BS to 3+ and damage to D6 (or better D3+3) they could be good, but now they are meh.
Because for points it overperforms manticore? Well okay if you are shooting against 4+ save or worse guys or T5/T9/T10 but those T scopes are so rare and most of 4+ or worse are 1W infantry at which point you are wasting d3 damage.
Against anything with 3+ or 2+ save it scores more damage than manticore. That's simple math.
And as for LOS hiding with 8th ed no vehicle can realistically be used to hide out of LOS unless it's custom made terrain made for that and those hide basilisk as well as manticore. I don't even remember when I had LOS blocker that was big enough to hide manticore but not basilisk.
gbghg wrote: it does the same damage per hit as the manticore but with an extra AP
A problem is: Manticore makes twice the number of shots compared to Basilisk so it can be used against infantry (with Catachan doctrine it will be about 8 shots per turn). But I personally do not think even Manticores are good enough to take them. For a comparable price you can have LRBT that will shoot twice, benefit from the same doctrines, can be ordered to do some funny things and have a bunch of other weapons to shoot with. Yes you will loose out-of-LOS-shooting capability but I rarely see situations where I both:
1. Need out-of-LOS shooting.
2. Can not deal with the target using massed mortar fire.
For points difference is actually about ~1.5 shots less. With extra AP. End result: Basilisk outscores vs vehicles. UNLESS we are talking about T9/T10/T18 vehicles but really? See much of those on battlefield?
Now albeit it's possible basilisk sucks. In that case though manticore sucks even more so guess you aren't fielding either one.
It does not. I've did a calculation at the previous page, please read it. I also can make the same one for every target you want (I've made a spreadsheet to do this) so if you are interested in learning how badly Basilisc sucks against any combination of toughness and save -- just tell me.
One big reason Arty is so popular is ITC houserules it's terrain to where ruins block LOS on the first floor. You'd be amazed how much can hide on those tables sometimes. That's the basilisk main strength. You can't hide from it. Meanwhile Russe's have to see their target, which meant braving a storm of dark reapers. Now they're reigned in a bit it's possible we'll see people trend toward Russe's and mortars over just basilisks since Russe's aren't dead the moment they step out.
MrMoustaffa wrote: One big reason Arty is so popular is ITC houserules it's terrain to where ruins block LOS on the first floor. You'd be amazed how much can hide on those tables sometimes.
Oh, I do understand now. That's why we play by the book in local club: you can easily totally change the game dynamics if you start messing with the rules.
MrMoustaffa wrote: One big reason Arty is so popular is ITC houserules it's terrain to where ruins block LOS on the first floor. You'd be amazed how much can hide on those tables sometimes.
Oh, I do understand now. That's why we play by the book in local club: you can easily totally change the game dynamics if you start messing with the rules.
But the book rules assume a level of LOS blocking terrain that most tables don't have. Ruined buildings are by far the most common large terrain, and under the core rules they block by true LOS, which means almost nothing is blocked.
Oh, I do understand now. That's why we play by the book in local club: you can easily totally change the game dynamics if you start messing with the rules.
But the book rules assume a level of LOS blocking terrain that most tables don't have. Ruined buildings are by far the most common large terrain, and under the core rules they block by true LOS, which means almost nothing is blocked.
It is not a problem of rules -- it is a problem of people being too lazy to make a proper terrain (or too greedy to avoid buying a good 3-rd party terrain that is available in abundance).
Or not interested in replacing years worth of terrain just because GW is too lazy to come up with proper terrain rules...
Do you think for example gaming stores are swimming with time and money to replace 10 tables worth of terrain they have been building up little by little for years...
You might be super rich guy who can buy new terrain at will and have somebody paint it. Not all have though. And lots of terrain was useful before. Until GW botched up by being lazy bums rather than professional game designers.
tneva82 wrote: Or not interested in replacing years worth of terrain just because GW is too lazy to come up with proper terrain rules...
Do you think for example gaming stores are swimming with time and money to replace 10 tables worth of terrain they have been building up little by little for years...
I bet this piece of terrain took hours to painstakingly assemble after costing $300, to be sure.
I can't even imagine the pain the owner will go through when he paints it...
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: I’d probably rather play with ineffective but good-looking terrain rather than actual garbage on the table.
Me too. But the claim that "IT'S TOO EXPENSIVE TO TERRAIN" is literally ignoring how I lived for the first 1/3rd of my 40k career. Books stacked as hills covered with sheets, actual plant clippings as shrubbery, cardboard ruins...
tneva82 wrote: Or not interested in replacing years worth of terrain just because GW is too lazy to come up with proper terrain rules...
It's just a self-excuse. I live in Russia, so I'm not anything near rich by western standards as well as my club-mates, but we somehow manage to play without breaking the game with home rules. We carve ruins from insulation foam (it looks surprisingly good when painted), we do a laser-cut terrain ourselves (one of the players work in the firm that produce laser-cut products) and sometimes buy a nice-looking pieces for a club if we can afford them (some of us are better off then others). As my father told me when I was young: "Those who want will find a way, those who don't will make up an excuse".
CaptainO wrote: With so many CP in an IG army the Ariel spotter stratagem is pretty awesome when used with a basilisk. It only works on one unit per turn but as I only take one it’s not an issue. Taking them with Valhallan doctrine would mean it would keep firing until the end.
I’m now taking two LTBT and a basilisk in a vostroyan spearhead detachment. The 30” coaxial plus the 4.9” move mitigates a lot of the issue associated with with the conqueror. The basilisk doesn’t benefit as much from the doctrine but the +1 to hit rolls at on 1 CP can be useful.
I’m still taking cadia for my brigade detachment. Reroll misses is exceptional for my 3x3 mortar heavy weapon teams. If I didn’t love Using CPs so much I’d love to combo them with the old grudge warlord trait.
If you're willing to drop 2CP on Arial Spotter I think you're better off using Cadian Basilisks with Overlapping Fields of Fire (unless you're using that on plasSWS/scions). OFoF can affects every unit you have on the table as opposed to just 1 model and the +1 to hit coupled with Cadian rr 1s comes out better than rr all misses. Can also be coupled with Old Grudge
I’ve got two conquers in the same vostroyan spearhead as the basilisk as they benefit much more from that doctrine than they do from the cadian one (Reroll all misses even when moving with +6” range rather than Reroll 1s) the choice boils down to either swapping a mortar team from the cadian battalion to the vostroyan spearhead and the basi to the cadian battalion or leaving them where they are. I think the mortars benefit way more from being cadian and I can compensate the basis inability to use OFoF by using the vostroyan +1 stratagem. This heavy use of CPs pushes me back towards the grand stratagist trait though even though I now start the game with 16 CPs. Has anyone used “old grudge” in ITC tournaments ?
After 15 years of (stupidly) buying/selling my IG armies for the next shiny thing; I've decided to step back to the army I know best, paint better (cause ya know, 60+ minis makes good practice) and that my wife supports paying for as long as I clean out my collection closet. I'm not a new 8th player aside from using Space Marines (which turned into a giant boring gunline) and want to go back to IG for a mixed force. My goal is to do roughly 400pts of Cadian infantry/sentinels in a Battalion for a solid firebase in my DZ; with the rest of my forces a mix of LR armor, a flyer, command squads, supporting infantry squads to move with the LR's, and tank commanders to specialize to take down their targets.
Couple of quick questions while I wait for my codex to come in though. For the non-Cadian part of my army, should I use Tallaran or Vostroyan doctrine? Given the 13CP I've cooked up from going two Bats I'm not sure which doctrine fits best the second one to go with Cadians. Do anything of the doctrines really stand out apart from Cadians to make my other Bat good on the move? I've made a list on BattleScribe of what I want to get as well.
After 15 years of (stupidly) buying/selling my IG armies for the next shiny thing; I've decided to step back to the army I know best, paint better (cause ya know, 60+ minis makes good practice) and that my wife supports paying for as long as I clean out my collection closet. I'm not a new 8th player aside from using Space Marines (which turned into a giant boring gunline) and want to go back to IG for a mixed force. My goal is to do roughly 400pts of Cadian infantry/sentinels in a Battalion for a solid firebase in my DZ; with the rest of my forces a mix of LR armor, a flyer, command squads, supporting infantry squads to move with the LR's, and tank commanders to specialize to take down their targets.
Couple of quick questions while I wait for my codex to come in though. For the non-Cadian part of my army, should I use Tallaran or Vostroyan doctrine? Given the 13CP I've cooked up from going two Bats I'm not sure which doctrine fits best the second one to go with Cadians. Do anything of the doctrines really stand out apart from Cadians to make my other Bat good on the move? I've made a list on BattleScribe of what I want to get as well.
you're mixing guard? I think it would look a little bleh on the table myself
After 15 years of (stupidly) buying/selling my IG armies for the next shiny thing; I've decided to step back to the army I know best, paint better (cause ya know, 60+ minis makes good practice) and that my wife supports paying for as long as I clean out my collection closet. I'm not a new 8th player aside from using Space Marines (which turned into a giant boring gunline) and want to go back to IG for a mixed force. My goal is to do roughly 400pts of Cadian infantry/sentinels in a Battalion for a solid firebase in my DZ; with the rest of my forces a mix of LR armor, a flyer, command squads, supporting infantry squads to move with the LR's, and tank commanders to specialize to take down their targets.
Couple of quick questions while I wait for my codex to come in though. For the non-Cadian part of my army, should I use Tallaran or Vostroyan doctrine? Given the 13CP I've cooked up from going two Bats I'm not sure which doctrine fits best the second one to go with Cadians. Do anything of the doctrines really stand out apart from Cadians to make my other Bat good on the move? I've made a list on BattleScribe of what I want to get as well.
you're mixing guard? I think it would look a little bleh on the table myself
I run a mix of Cadian/Catatchan myself with pretty good results, but I also run a huge amount of infantry. My Cadians make up my gunline, and my Catachans have my LRBTs and unfortunate sacrificial objective grabbers.
Bubba4President wrote: I'm not sure which doctrine fits best the second one to go with Cadians.
In general:
1. Cadian rules and stratagems are the best all-round ones. It's a sort of "default mode" for IG and the best one for mortars.
2. Catachan is great if you have a lot of flamers and artillery.
3. Tallarn lets you have mobility and do not trade firepower for speed but will provide you with less firepower that Cadian or Catachan (no re-rolls for amount of shots for cannons and flamers and no re-rolls of 1s to-hit for being stationary).
4. Valhalla is good if you want your superheavy tank to be a fire magnet but shoot until the end.
5. Others are situational. They are good if you like some regiment and want to represent it's spirit on the table, but not so powerful as Cadian, Catachan and Tallarn.
Bubba4President wrote: Do anything of the doctrines really stand out apart from Cadians to make my other Bat good on the move?
For "good on the move" Tallarn is probably the top contender.
You get an ambush stratagem (three units, one of which can be a vehicle), your vehicles can fire heavy weapons without taking penalties to hit, and your infantry can advance and fire assault weapons with no negative modifiers. I forget what the Tallarn order is, but it's tank based and move oriented as well IIRC.
The Tallarn tank order is badass. Move 5" out from LOS blocking terrain, fire your guns with no penalty (all of them!) then move 5" back behind LOS blocking terrain. For the lulz.
Aesthete wrote: I forget what the Tallarn order is, but it's tank based and move oriented as well IIRC.
It makes them a bit elfish: lets shoot and move (or move and shoot) in the shooting phase.
Before the FAQ, I would routinely Ambush (Stratagem) a Tank Commander into my opponent’s flank, use the Move order to run him another 6” closer to a soft opponent unit, then charge it with the Crush Them! (Strategem) to tie it up or finish it off.
Post- FAQ any movement after deepstriking is prohibited so can’t pull it off anymore.
Tiberius501 wrote: This is a bit late but thanks everyone who answered my question about the best Leman Russ variants. Shame the Exterminator is no good, my favourite looking Death Korps tank because it looks so WWl French
It's not that it's no good (it's not as bad as the Vanquisher), it's just that there's better out there. You could probably make it work if you really wanted to!
Yeah it's workable, it's outclassed by other variants, but there are some advantages to it. And if the army is more lore leaning then its faults shouldn't deter too much.
Basically, you need to be shooting at exactly two wound models for it to really make a difference. Comparing the Exterminator cannon to the Battle Cannon, the Exterminator gets four shots compared to d6 (essentially 3.5), but loses a point of strength and AP, with a fixed D2 instead of D:d3. You also lose two feet of range!
AP is arguably the most important aspect of a weapon (with -2 and -3 being the sweet spot), and S8 helps against T4, T7, and T8, which ii a very wide spread of targets. It's a lot to give up for slightly more shots and more consistent damage.
You also run into the fact that you can throw autocannons on damn near anything in the list: infantry squads, heavy weapon squads, sentinels, Tauroxes, even chimeras.
I agree, though i'd repeat its workable for someone going for more of a lore leaning army, but the LRBT is better, and far more versatile. It seems aimed at dealing with poor armour save units with 2 wounds each. Not many of those running around. And as you say autocannons are readily available on a lot of other more effective units.
I've only heard good things from people who have used them.
I normally run Catachans but today I was playing my buddy in a 500pt battle just so he could test out some Tau stuff so I tried out Cadians. Holy crap. The guard are SO strong in small games haha. It was crazy. I had a battalion with 40 guardsmen. An astropath. 2 CCs. A mortar HWS. THEN I had a patrol with a Tempestor Prime an 2x5s of Scions. 1 with plasma and 1 with hot shot volley guns.
My CC warlord had Laurels of Command with the Cadian trait. That was freaking brutal. I merged 2 infantry squads with heavy Bolters and Plasma guns then put Nightshroud on them. They proceeded to use Take Aim AND Bring It Down on every turn. It was hilarious. The mortars got the same thing every turn, too. Absolutely brutal in such a small game. And the Astropaths Astral Divination power was a game changer. His stealth suits would have never died if they kept their 2+ cover saves.
tneva82 wrote: Or not interested in replacing years worth of terrain just because GW is too lazy to come up with proper terrain rules...
Do you think for example gaming stores are swimming with time and money to replace 10 tables worth of terrain they have been building up little by little for years...
I bet this piece of terrain took hours to painstakingly assemble after costing $300, to be sure.
I can't even imagine the pain the owner will go through when he paints it...
If that's the standard your gaming store has then too bad. Others don't though. That sort of terrain isn't even good PR so would be bad idea for gaming store to do those.
sure if you can go cheap you can but then that looks like crap so is not nice to play and for store is very bad as it would make games bad PR which hurts sales. At that point better to not have gaming area at all.
Oh and btw that piece is pretty much useless for LOS blocking as well. Lol.
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: I’d probably rather play with ineffective but good-looking terrain rather than actual garbage on the table.
Me too. But the claim that "IT'S TOO EXPENSIVE TO TERRAIN" is literally ignoring how I lived for the first 1/3rd of my 40k career. Books stacked as hills covered with sheets, actual plant clippings as shrubbery, cardboard ruins...
You really have books stacked as hills in your gaming store?
In what sort of store you play at? That store doesn't have any idea how to do promotion for sure. Sales are probably very bad then.
After 15 years of (stupidly) buying/selling my IG armies for the next shiny thing; I've decided to step back to the army I know best, paint better (cause ya know, 60+ minis makes good practice) and that my wife supports paying for as long as I clean out my collection closet. I'm not a new 8th player aside from using Space Marines (which turned into a giant boring gunline) and want to go back to IG for a mixed force. My goal is to do roughly 400pts of Cadian infantry/sentinels in a Battalion for a solid firebase in my DZ; with the rest of my forces a mix of LR armor, a flyer, command squads, supporting infantry squads to move with the LR's, and tank commanders to specialize to take down their targets.
Couple of quick questions while I wait for my codex to come in though. For the non-Cadian part of my army, should I use Tallaran or Vostroyan doctrine? Given the 13CP I've cooked up from going two Bats I'm not sure which doctrine fits best the second one to go with Cadians. Do anything of the doctrines really stand out apart from Cadians to make my other Bat good on the move? I've made a list on BattleScribe of what I want to get as well.
you're mixing guard? I think it would look a little bleh on the table myself
That's what GW is pushing for so...If you dont' you are shooting yourself to foot.
Arbitrator wrote: The age old debate: Lascannons in Infantry Squads or dedicated HWTs?
Because of how easy they are to remove with any sort of shooting I would only run HWT's as Mortars so they can hide. Lascannons on Infantry squads is fine since you have 8 bodies in the way
My CC warlord had Laurels of Command with the Cadian trait. That was freaking brutal. I merged 2 infantry squads with heavy Bolters and Plasma guns then put Nightshroud on them. They proceeded to use Take Aim AND Bring It Down on every turn. It was hilarious. The mortars got the same thing every turn, too. Absolutely brutal in such a small game.
You should read the wording more carefully on Voice of Command. Your units may only receive one order per turn. You still would have crushed your opponent but maybe not as quickly.
My CC warlord had Laurels of Command with the Cadian trait. That was freaking brutal. I merged 2 infantry squads with heavy Bolters and Plasma guns then put Nightshroud on them. They proceeded to use Take Aim AND Bring It Down on every turn. It was hilarious. The mortars got the same thing every turn, too. Absolutely brutal in such a small game.
You should read the wording more carefully on Voice of Command. Your units may only receive one order per turn. You still would have crushed your opponent but maybe not as quickly.
The laurels of command is a relic that lets you give multiple orders to a single unit.
My CC warlord had Laurels of Command with the Cadian trait. That was freaking brutal. I merged 2 infantry squads with heavy Bolters and Plasma guns then put Nightshroud on them. They proceeded to use Take Aim AND Bring It Down on every turn. It was hilarious. The mortars got the same thing every turn, too. Absolutely brutal in such a small game.
You should read the wording more carefully on Voice of Command. Your units may only receive one order per turn. You still would have crushed your opponent but maybe not as quickly.
The laurels of command is a relic that lets you give multiple orders to a single unit.
Yes, but he double-dipped on two units: the blob squad and the mortar squad.
Company commanders can issue 2 orders per turn. Each time the Laurels of Command get rolled for. The superior tactical training ALSO triggers laurels of command. It's in the latest FAQ.
Colonel Cross wrote: Company commanders can issue 2 orders per turn. Each time the Laurels of Command get rolled for. The superior tactical training ALSO triggers laurels of command. It's in the latest FAQ.
Wow, I didn't pay much attention to that part of the new FAQ since I use Old Grudges as my Warlord trait and the Relic of Lost Cadia as my relic. Your example may lead me to add Laurels of Command as a second relic and maybe use the Cadian Warlord trait whenever my opponent doesn't have a LoW, Imperial Knight, or Monster.
My warlord sits in a cluster of mortar squads so adding Bring It Down to the Take Aim orders, that I currently use, would be sweet.
Smotejob wrote: Has anyone used sentinel power lifters? They seem decent enough.
I never have not used them since I started using them. Anything with scout moves is great. If you go second? No worries. Block off a lane. Get into terrain. Even move backwards as a feint.
If you go first its a 9inch scout. Plus they move 9. Then 1st turn charge.
Also have been using the salamander scout vehicle too.
Colonel Cross wrote: It doesn't happen all the time since it's only a 4+ but with Inspired Tactics that 1 CC can just spew orders lol.
Yeah I was looking into it for my Valhallans since it would let me "Fire on my Command" and FRFSRF or Take Aim! With Master of Command Warlord trait and inspired tactics you can kick out 4 orders a turn with some of those units double ordering. For a Cadian Commander you can put Kell next to them for +1 order then chain that off of Superior Tactical Training. With good rolls you could see 10+ orders proc off a single commander, it's kind of insane. Not sure how efficient it is, but it would combo well for voxes in the center of an infantry heavy gunline.
Colonel Cross wrote: It doesn't happen all the time since it's only a 4+ but with Inspired Tactics that 1 CC can just spew orders lol.
Yeah I was looking into it for my Valhallans since it would let me "Fire on my Command" and FRFSRF or Take Aim! With Master of Command Warlord trait and inspired tactics you can kick out 4 orders a turn with some of those units double ordering. For a Cadian Commander you can put Kell next to them for +1 order then chain that off of Superior Tactical Training. With good rolls you could see 10+ orders proc off a single commander, it's kind of insane. Not sure how efficient it is, but it would combo well for voxes in the center of an infantry heavy gunline.
This was addressed in the most recent faq but a very very good combo
Nuck Fewton wrote:
you're mixing guard? I think it would look a little bleh on the table myself
Well I figured I could paint 100 cadians all the same or paint a variety of minis. It would be fluffy accurate to "fill out" a Cadian regiment with some Tallaran reinforcements given their homeworld was destroyed.
I run a mix of Cadian/Catatchan myself with pretty good results, but I also run a huge amount of infantry. My Cadians make up my gunline, and my Catachans have my LRBTs and unfortunate sacrificial objective grabbers.
I get the feeling that the IG codex is pretty well balanced and not a whole lot is bad game wise. I remember having some catachans back in 4th ed since I loved the "Rambo" look. Back in 5th Ed I had an airborne catachan army spamming Valks/Vendettas.
Aesthete wrote:
For "good on the move" Tallarn is probably the top contender.
You get an ambush stratagem (three units, one of which can be a vehicle), your vehicles can fire heavy weapons without taking penalties to hit, and your infantry can advance and fire assault weapons with no negative modifiers. I forget what the Tallarn order is, but it's tank based and move oriented as well IIRC.
That's a pretty good strategem for vehicles on top of their tank one. I've settled for using Tallarns for my other part of the regiment.
A quick question about the keywords for IG. Do you have to use GW Cadian minis to use the <Cadian> regiment rules/relics/strategems? I'm used to marines where you have to mostly paint them combined to WYSIWYG to play a specific chapter. If I would need Tallarns, this could get a pricey with GW.
Aesthete wrote:
For "good on the move" Tallarn is probably the top contender.
You get an ambush stratagem (three units, one of which can be a vehicle), your vehicles can fire heavy weapons without taking penalties to hit, and your infantry can advance and fire assault weapons with no negative modifiers. I forget what the Tallarn order is, but it's tank based and move oriented as well IIRC.
That's a pretty good strategem for vehicles on top of their tank one. I've settled for using Tallarns for my other part of the regiment.
A quick question about the keywords for IG. Do you have to use GW Cadian minis to use the <Cadian> regiment rules/relics/strategems? I'm used to marines where you have to mostly paint them combined to WYSIWYG to play a specific chapter. If I would need Tallarns, this could get a pricey with GW.
You can easily use cadian models and use tallarn tactics. People have done with marines for a long time and most people won't care. You can easily fluff it as well by saying that the tactics of the tallarn fit that specific regiment more. I run my cadians as catachan all the time because I don't want to go buy a whole new army. I think people will be especially open to it because they will understand how expensive tallarn minis would be. There are no rules on actual models or paint jobs you need to have to run any chapter tactic or equivalent.
This is my TAC list I've been using. It's really fun, kinda fluffy, kinda strong but not overly so. I originally took the Chimeras to help me play faster by not having 100 infantry to move around. But now I've played enough games I think I'm pretty fast with orders, moving models, etc. I'm thinking about ditching 1 or 2 of them. What do you think I should plug in here with the extra 180pts I'd be getting back? I'm thinking 1 more Bullgryn and more Infantry squads? (Honestly the punisher is close to getting axed as well because it's performance has been awful and I'd just rather have a basic Battle Cannon Russ instead).
You can easily use cadian models and use tallarn tactics. People have done with marines for a long time and most people won't care. You can easily fluff it as well by saying that the tactics of the tallarn fit that specific regiment more. I run my cadians as catachan all the time because I don't want to go buy a whole new army. I think people will be especially open to it because they will understand how expensive tallarn minis would be. There are no rules on actual models or paint jobs you need to have to run any chapter tactic or equivalent.
Ah ok that's what I figured as well. Thanks for the feedback ya'll for this old (and senile) Imperial General
You can easily use cadian models and use tallarn tactics. People have done with marines for a long time and most people won't care. You can easily fluff it as well by saying that the tactics of the tallarn fit that specific regiment more. I run my cadians as catachan all the time because I don't want to go buy a whole new army. I think people will be especially open to it because they will understand how expensive tallarn minis would be. There are no rules on actual models or paint jobs you need to have to run any chapter tactic or equivalent.
Ah ok that's what I figured as well. Thanks for the feedback ya'll for this old (and senile) Imperial General
Hmm - sounds like heresy. Where is the commissar when you need one....
To get the discussion in a new direction let me rapid fire a few thoughts:
What do you guys think about elysians?
How does the new faq change them?
Are they still a valid asset or are they dead like the forgeworld store suggests?
I usually run a small detachment for early game plasma in the backfield of my enemy and objective grabbing late game.
Do you think the other special regiment are also vanishing over time? When I remember correctly they have been the first new model line from forgeworld. By the way fun fact: as I’ve ordered some this week it says „us to high demands expect delivery times of 28 days“
Maybe the fellow commanders don’t want them to disappear...
I'm planning on buying a 1000pts army of Elysian before they go out of stock, I'll buy them this week end. I don't need it to be competitive at all, but do you have any idea, any experience with them ? I don't know what special weapon to put in my drop troopers squad for example, just 1 special weapon is so few !
godardc wrote: I'm planning on buying a 1000pts army of Elysian before they go out of stock, I'll buy them this week end. I don't need it to be competitive at all, but do you have any idea, any experience with them ? I'll post my list later today
I don't know what special weapon to put in my drop troopers squad for example, just 1 special weapon is so few !
For my part I use flamers on the troops for objective camping. Keep them cheep. For the heavy hitters I use two command squad with melter and plasma.
I like you idea, I have changed my list a little to take it into consideration.
I put flamers on my veterans too because the shotguns models are gorgeous, so flamers are short ranged too, but I am afraid it isn't really good.
godardc wrote: I'm planning on buying a 1000pts army of Elysian before they go out of stock, I'll buy them this week end. I don't need it to be competitive at all, but do you have any idea, any experience with them ? I'll post my list later today
I don't know what special weapon to put in my drop troopers squad for example, just 1 special weapon is so few !
For my part I use flamers on the troops for objective camping. Keep them cheep. For the heavy hitters I use two command squad with melter and plasma.
Why use a flamer to keep them cheap when plasma is the same price and far more useful?
I hate being that guy, but if you're honestly asking which special weapons are most effective you may as well buy 30 or so plasma guns right now, with snipers, grenade launchers, and meltas being a somewhat situational and far behind second place. Flamers are just not useful on most guard units at the moment outside of catachans and tallarn. That's just how IG special weapons are right now. Meltas and flamers especially pay what I can only describe as an "assault tax" that makes them far more points than they should be. Snipers are better than nothing in some situations and alongside grenade launcher are decent budget weapons for command squads and vets, but even there you often want plasma.
Why use a flamer to keep them cheap when plasma is the same price and far more useful?
I hate being that guy, but if you're honestly asking which special weapons are most effective you may as well buy 30 or so plasma guns right now, with snipers, grenade launchers, and meltas being a somewhat situational and far behind second place. Flamers are just not useful on most guard units at the moment outside of catachans and tallarn. That's just how IG special weapons are right now. Meltas and flamers especially pay what I can only describe as an "assault tax" that makes them far more points than they should be. Snipers are better than nothing in some situations and alongside grenade launcher are decent budget weapons for command squads and vets, but even there you often want plasma.
Yes you are right. My answer was a little too short. I use my troops for objectives. So they are more defence oriented. If you bring a flamer the opponent is often hesitating assaulting them. One Plasma haven’t enough punch anyway so I don’t bother using them offensive.
The command squats I use with plasma for deepstriking. With 4 plasma each they pack enough firepower to be a serious threat. Basically they are the same as Scions in a normal guard list.
The command squats jumping out of vendettas I run with melter. You are right, plasma is obviously the better choice for every situation, but for fluff an heritage I use melter.
Because of the rule of cool I use veterans with shotguns and of course plasma.
Sniper are funny. They are no game changer but sometimes they are shining bright.
Tauros ans Venator are good. Not cheap but strong. They fill the same role as sentinels in other guard armys.
Cyclops demo vehicles are situational but when they pull the trick they are great. Park them in terrain and wait till the opponent forget about them.
Drop in a few mortars for geq clearing ans Sentry guns for fire support.
The drop sentinels are just bought and on the way so I can’t say anything about them.
Air wing support works the same as in other guard lists. Just remember to build a spotter. I’ve used the vox parts and the monocular of the sniper pack.
Is there a serious assault unit in the game actually deterred by flamers? I feel like even just your lasguns and plasma on overwatch would be more intimidating than a single flamer. At best you get 6 hits, which will wound 3 genestealers and kill something like 2. That's hardly stopping most things. A SWS or command squad with flamers? Yeah I'd start thinking harder about how badly I want to stab those guardsmen but I feel a regular flamer isn't going to stop anything but the most fragile of units.
The Heavy Bolter I drop in on the tarantula Sentry guns. So no need for them in hvy weapon squads for elysians.
Regarding the flames you are right. They are not scaring the close combat specialist units. But if you fight with your recently dropped troops over an objective somewhere in the nomansland and not on your frontline, your enemy usually don’t have the heavy hitters nearby. And if he pulled some troops or geq in their direction he is thinking twice to charge flamer and Lasguns.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Is there a serious assault unit in the game actually deterred by flamers? I feel like even just your lasguns and plasma on overwatch would be more intimidating than a single flamer. At best you get 6 hits, which will wound 3 genestealers and kill something like 2. That's hardly stopping most things. A SWS or command squad with flamers? Yeah I'd start thinking harder about how badly I want to stab those guardsmen but I feel a regular flamer isn't going to stop anything but the most fragile of units.
And what assault unit is worriea about single plasma? Less than 0.33 wounds. More casualties to yourself on overwatch than enemy
MrMoustaffa wrote: Is there a serious assault unit in the game actually deterred by flamers? I feel like even just your lasguns and plasma on overwatch would be more intimidating than a single flamer. At best you get 6 hits, which will wound 3 genestealers and kill something like 2. That's hardly stopping most things. A SWS or command squad with flamers? Yeah I'd start thinking harder about how badly I want to stab those guardsmen but I feel a regular flamer isn't going to stop anything but the most fragile of units.
And what assault unit is worriea about single plasma? Less than 0.33 wounds. More casualties to yourself on overwatch than enemy
Exactly my point. If you trying to fight an assault unit with you simple troops, something goes wrong.
They just pick opportunities at forgotten objectives and have to survive long enough to score.
So Hydras are pretty amazing. Took one to an event yesterday. It was my top damage dealer by far. Feels like nearly every army has something that flies.
What is the best regiment for Hydras? I ran Cadian, and thanks to the extra CP from Battallions, I used the Cadian Strategem a couple times. Hitting on 2's with 8 Autocannons is pretty intense.
tag8833 wrote: So Hydras are pretty amazing. Took one to an event yesterday. It was my top damage dealer by far. Feels like nearly every army has something that flies.
What is the best regiment for Hydras? I ran Cadian, and thanks to the extra CP from Battallions, I used the Cadian Strategem a couple times. Hitting on 2's with 8 Autocannons is pretty intense.
I think most IG players choose to take other units instead of paying 108 points for a Hydra. I take one sometimes because my area is full of armies that use units with the Fly keyword. Cadian is best for Hydras. The Overlapping Fires stratagem and Born Soldiers regimental trait are fantastic together, as you experienced in your event. I tend not to take a Hydra versus IG, AdMech, and some Nurgle players because they rarely use flyers. There is one Death Guard guy though that fields Morty and Plague Drones.
tag8833 wrote: So Hydras are pretty amazing. Took one to an event yesterday. It was my top damage dealer by far. Feels like nearly every army has something that flies.
What is the best regiment for Hydras? I ran Cadian, and thanks to the extra CP from Battallions, I used the Cadian Strategem a couple times. Hitting on 2's with 8 Autocannons is pretty intense.
I think most IG players choose to take other units instead of paying 108 points for a Hydra. I take one sometimes because my area is full of armies that use units with the Fly keyword. Cadian is best for Hydras. The Overlapping Fires stratagem and Born Soldiers regimental trait are fantastic together, as you experienced in your event. I tend not to take a Hydra versus IG, AdMech, and some Nurgle players because they rarely use flyers. There is one Death Guard guy though that fields Morty and Plague Drones.
Hydras are perfect. I love them with mit catachans. I usually take one or two. Everyone brings some units with the fly keyword, like battlesuits, Jetbikes, deamons, etc. They are every game their points worth.
I'm about to finalize my army list and I was wondering if I could get your opinions on how competitive it is and if there are any tweaks I should make.
Spoiler:
Brigade3+12 Command Points
Headquarters - 90 pts
Company Commander -Laspistol, Chainsword, Laurels of Command, Master of Command
Company Commander -Laspistol, Chainsword, Kurov's Aquila (-1 Command Point)
Stormlord is meant for objective assaults. Six lascannons, and more plasma then you can shake a stick at. Gonna keep the lascannons out of the stormlord so it can move around. Being mordian I get no bonus rerolls of my # of attacks or misses, so I like nonrandom high volume options that'll also benefit from my bonus to overwatch. Psyker and priest will buff the stormlord. Kind of want to roll with conquerers for the russes but I'll go punisher first and just magnetize the chassis. I feel like I could do more lascannons but I can dump some Command points that way in a pinch. Should I move two of the lascannons over to the vets for improved BS or is that to much of a target? Thanks for reading!
Sentinels can't have Heavy Bolters. So you better cough up 12 more points in the list of yours for autocannons. Or I guess just 6 if you're ok with multilasers.
Thoni wrote: Next question: What about malcador tanks?
They are the very few tanks I’ve never seen in action - but they look badass.
But my concern is, that after the first faq a Leman Russ has packs much more firepower point wise. What’s your experiences?
Well, you answered your question. Unfortunately, the majority of the FW tanks have been left in the dust. The codex gave Leman Russes and Baneblades much better firepower but FW hasn't changed their own. The Macharius and Malcador line really need something like grinding advance to be relevant. Funnily enough, it was FW's laziness that made the Macharius Vulcan okay since they just kept the 7th edition weapon profile, which gives it a way to double fire.
Thanks! I'm gonna swap a grenade launcher and the storm bolter on the stormlord for multilasers on the sentinels and the extra point on a gold plated boltgun for my warlord. Style for the style throne.
I figure multilasers for the sentinels since their only scouts and I'd prefer to keep them out of firefights altogether. Good as pickets, speed bumps, linebreaker, and possibly surprise charge the maybe one thing per army lamer than it in CC. Almost tempted to spring for chainsaws somehow.
I'll edit this into the original list.
e: Tweaked it slightly for another plasma gun and some sniper filler.
e2: Would the dagger of tu'sakh and a plasma vet squad paired with the order form firing squad and the strategem volley fire combine effectively to assassinate an enemy character?
I like bringing the dagger in my lists... However, I dont usually get a character pick from it. Most people protect their characters well enough. I like to bring plasma in to target something dangerous or elite. 3-4 plasma guns are good for picking off their long range fire power, shoving them off their backfield objectives and forcing your opponent to move backwards (think Terran Marine medivac drop on the mineral line).
PatrickL wrote: Can Yarrick bring the dagger? I don;t think he can since he doesnt have the officer keyword, but I wanted to make sure.
No, he's a named character so he doesn't have access to heirlooms of conquest. Only generic characters have access to them.
not quite accurate ... named characters can take relics..... IF they don’t have special war gear themselves. Which is effectively about the same but an important distinction. Otherwise they’d never have made the distinction
Automatically Appended Next Post: For instance creed can take relics (despite the codex calling him out by name) as can pask*
*if his lrbt doesn’t count and I’m not 100% sure it does
Automatically Appended Next Post: P.s. no I don’t care what you think the rules are clear and until gwfaqs it that’s how it works
Creed cannot take relics and neither can Pask. The codex specifically states,"Named characters such as Lord Castellan Creed already have one or more artefacts, and cannot be given any of the following relics."
Edit: Page 2 of the codex FAQ says that only characters that have the INFANTRY and OFFICER keywords can take the dagger. Given the restriction on named characters, you can give the dagger to a Company Commander, a Tempestor Prime, or a Platoon Commander.
What's everyone's opinion on the Minotaur Artillery Tank now that it can move and fire it's guns? Is just under 300 points worth it for such a machine?
Unit1126PLL wrote: What's everyone's opinion on the Minotaur Artillery Tank now that it can move and fire it's guns? Is just under 300 points worth it for such a machine?
Unit1126PLL wrote: What's everyone's opinion on the Minotaur Artillery Tank now that it can move and fire it's guns? Is just under 300 points worth it for such a machine?
I don’t have one so my thoughts are pure guesswork:
I tend to run at least 2 basilisk in my CATACHAN army. With them I stick to the Armageddon pattern for the extra toughness point. So two basilisk are much cheaper for the same firepower.
Minotaur got one point toughness more.
You get the 5+invul against shooting.
Due to damage chart you have better output over the game turns. On the other hand your opponent have just one target and he has not have to split fire between two tanks.
You can’t take the reroll from Artillerie officer, so you have to get another solution. This is critical in my opinion.
The fire on the move due to steel behemoth rule is irrelevant. When you get your Artillerie parking lot moving you doing it wrong.
You have to add a super heavy slot. For good and bad. The heavy slot is very crowded. So not bad.
My conclusion:
I tend to stick to the cheaper two single Armageddon basilisk. But the durability is definitely worth the points. In my games the basilisk are heavy hitter but not priority targets like manticore or executioner. Due to the increased durability of the Armageddon pattern they are no quick wins for my opponent neither. I like them to stay low in target priority so I tend to stick to Armageddon basilisk.
The model is awesom!.
Unit1126PLL wrote: What's everyone's opinion on the Minotaur Artillery Tank now that it can move and fire it's guns? Is just under 300 points worth it for such a machine?
How can it move and fire?
The new Steel Behemoth update for FW gave it to their tanks iirc.
Thoni wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote: What's everyone's opinion on the Minotaur Artillery Tank now that it can move and fire it's guns? Is just under 300 points worth it for such a machine?
I don’t have one so my thoughts are pure guesswork:
I tend to run at least 2 basilisk in my CATACHAN army. With them I stick to the Armageddon pattern for the extra toughness point. So two basilisk are much cheaper for the same firepower.
Minotaur got one point toughness more. You get the 5+invul against shooting. Due to damage chart you have better output over the game turns. On the other hand your opponent have just one target and he has not have to split fire between two tanks. You can’t take the reroll from Artillerie officer, so you have to get another solution. This is critical in my opinion. The fire on the move due to steel behemoth rule is irrelevant. When you get your Artillerie parking lot moving you doing it wrong. You have to add a super heavy slot. For good and bad. The heavy slot is very crowded. So not bad.
My conclusion: I tend to stick to the cheaper two single Armageddon basilisk. But the durability is definitely worth the points. In my games the basilisk are heavy hitter but not priority targets like manticore or executioner. Due to the increased durability of the Armageddon pattern they are no quick wins for my opponent neither. I like them to stay low in target priority so I tend to stick to Armageddon basilisk. The model is awesom!.
Conversely, comparing it to a stock Baneblade at 390, you are 94 points cheaper and gain: 1) Essentially the same gun (averages for the twin earthshaker cannon are right around 8-12 shots, same for the 3d6 baneblade cannon) 2) 2 Heavy Bolters 3) A 5++ against shooting like a Knight 4) Ignore LOS shooting
You lose: 1) 1 pt of Strength (phrrbbt) 2) Some good CC ability (phrrbbt) 3) 4 wounds 4) flat 3 damage for d3 on the main gun
Does the new Steel Behemoth rule apply to the Minotaur? The Imperial Armour FAQ lists the tanks for the Steel Behemoth change and the Minotaur is not listed among them. It seems to apply only to the tanks on pages 30-39.
Edit: Thanks for reminding me that I need to order the Imperial Armour Index for the Forces of the Imperial Guard.
JB wrote: Does the new Steel Behemoth rule apply to the Minotaur? The Imperial Armour FAQ lists the tanks for the Steel Behemoth change and the Minotaur is not listed among them. It seems to apply only to the tanks on pages 30-39.
Edit: Thanks for reminding me that I need to order the Imperial Armour Index for the Forces of the Imperial Guard.
Oh rats! You're right!
I'll have to give it Tallarn, then.
On the upshot it can still overwatch infinite times. *Shrug*
EDIT: Same for the Valdor too, weird. And the Praetor launcher. That's unexpected, but infinite overwatch is hilarious.
Colonel Cross wrote: I can't believe it took them so long to FAQ the baneblade chassis overwatch clarification.
And they still missed it on 3 vehicles (at least).
I'll make sure to ask my opponent if they prefer infinite overwatch or ignoring the movement and to-hit penalty when I play my Valdors and Praetor. I still don't own a Minotaur, though I am considering it obviously.
JB wrote: Creed cannot take relics and neither can Pask. The codex specifically states,"Named characters such as Lord Castellan Creed already have one or more artefacts, and cannot be given any of the following relics."
Edit: Page 2 of the codex FAQ says that only characters that have the INFANTRY and OFFICER keywords can take the dagger. Given the restriction on named characters, you can give the dagger to a Company Commander, a Tempestor Prime, or a Platoon Commander.
creed doesn’t have aretefacts. Until that’s faqed named characters rules as written can take relics if they don’t have artifacts. If you have a problem with that call out gws horrible rules writing out.
You can kind of make an argument for creed because the codex specifically calls him out. But again thanks to gw being gakky at rules writing raw you can. In fact because artefact is not defined you can make an argument ALL named characters can.
All because gw added a line they did not need to. They could have stopped at “named characters can’t take relics” but they didn’t... because they are gak at rules writing and I’m not giving them a pass anymore without faqs because they need to be less sloppy
Unit1126PLL wrote: What's everyone's opinion on the Minotaur Artillery Tank now that it can move and fire it's guns? Is just under 300 points worth it for such a machine?
My thought is the same as before.
Minotaur 280 points, has the firepower of exactly 2 basilisks...
or
2 Basilisks 216 points (77% of 280), has the firepower of exactly 2 basilisks...
Why would you ever pick the more expensive option?
Unit1126PLL wrote: What's everyone's opinion on the Minotaur Artillery Tank now that it can move and fire it's guns? Is just under 300 points worth it for such a machine?
My thought is the same as before.
Minotaur 280 points, has the firepower of exactly 2 basilisks... or 2 Basilisks 216 points (77% of 280), has the firepower of exactly 2 basilisks...
Why would you ever pick the more expensive option?
Dramatically higher durability, ability to fire while in CC, better benefits from singe target buffs...
there's more to this game than firepower per point, presumably.
I think you are confusing a clarifying clause from a qualifying clause. The rule is explaining why named characters cannot take relics (because they have their own artefacts), not laying out the conditions in which they cannot take relics (when they have their own artefacts).
As you correctly point out, they never define artifact, which means there is no good way of testing which named characters can take relics. So, that means that the rule more or less boils down to "Because reasons, named characters cannot take relics." However, because the final clause is a logical and coherent statement, it can and should still be read as a rule.
I think it's an interesting and creative argument, but I would not put a lot of stock in opponents or TOs accepting it.
Polonius wrote: I think you are confusing a clarifying clause from a qualifying clause. The rule is explaining why named characters cannot take relics (because they have their own artefacts), not laying out the conditions in which they cannot take relics (when they have their own artefacts).
As you correctly point out, they never define artifact, which means there is no good way of testing which named characters can take relics. So, that means that the rule more or less boils down to "Because reasons, named characters cannot take relics." However, because the final clause is a logical and coherent statement, it can and should still be read as a rule.
I think it's an interesting and creative argument, but I would not put a lot of stock in opponents or TOs accepting it.
Yeah it doesn#t say named character's THAT have. It's named charactars period. But of course what counts as named characters isn't defined. Gw as usual.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Polonius wrote: Character is a key word, and is defined in the core rules.
The rules really aren't as poorly written as you contend. As you note, it's usually pretty apparent what is meant.
GW's need for a better proofreader/editor is well known, however.
If you need to decide what they meant that IS poorly written. No getting around it. As it game has enough places where rules don#t deal that there's high chance game cannot be finished if you insist on raw
Unit1126PLL wrote: What's everyone's opinion on the Minotaur Artillery Tank now that it can move and fire it's guns? Is just under 300 points worth it for such a machine?
My thought is the same as before.
Minotaur 280 points, has the firepower of exactly 2 basilisks...
or
2 Basilisks 216 points (77% of 280), has the firepower of exactly 2 basilisks...
Why would you ever pick the more expensive option?
Dramatically higher durability, ability to fire while in CC, better benefits from singe target buffs...
there's more to this game than firepower per point, presumably.
The higher survivability is nice, and I didn't realize it can fire from being in close combat, that is nice.
I just think, well first off you had to take a whole superheavy auxiliary to have the Minotaur in the first place, that is a cost. And unless you go all the way for a Supreme Command or full 3-5 Superheavies, you aren't getting that regimental doctrine either. Taking 3 HQ tax just to give doctrine to your expensive double-basilisk? Sounds like you are throwing good points after bad at this point.
Buffing it is nice so a 40 point searchlight can buff 2 basilisk's worth of firepower instead of one.
Still, seems totally not worth it. If my enemy had Basilisks and a Minotaur, I would ignore the minotaur and kill the basilisks. If they had only a Minotaur, I would still ignore it. I would rather have 5 basilisks than 2 Minotaurs.
I have been considering taking 3 Minotaurs or 2 Minotaurs and a Shadowsword in a 1k point superheavy detachment; that's what I was looking at the viability of.
Is anyone else trying Crusaders in their list? They go well with a priest and an astropath. You do have to keep them away from Mortal Wound dispensers (like exploding Hellhounds).
JB wrote: Is anyone else trying Crusaders in their list? They go well with a priest and an astropath. You do have to keep them away from Mortal Wound dispensers (like exploding Hellhounds).
I keep going back and forth on crusaders, they seem like elite killers in everyway except for the s3. I'd love them in almost all my lists if they were s4 at least but the s3 hurts a lot
Wow never saw the minotaur, really interesting alternative. Does anyone have one that they can show a size comparison to the basilisk? If it's much bigger then you might lose out on a lot of opportunities to stay out of LoS depending on your terrain
Unit1126PLL wrote: What's everyone's opinion on the Minotaur Artillery Tank now that it can move and fire it's guns? Is just under 300 points worth it for such a machine?
My thought is the same as before.
Minotaur 280 points, has the firepower of exactly 2 basilisks...
or
2 Basilisks 216 points (77% of 280), has the firepower of exactly 2 basilisks...
Why would you ever pick the more expensive option?
Dramatically higher durability, ability to fire while in CC, better benefits from singe target buffs...
there's more to this game than firepower per point, presumably.
The higher survivability is nice, and I didn't realize it can fire from being in close combat, that is nice.
I just think, well first off you had to take a whole superheavy auxiliary to have the Minotaur in the first place, that is a cost. And unless you go all the way for a Supreme Command or full 3-5 Superheavies, you aren't getting that regimental doctrine either. Taking 3 HQ tax just to give doctrine to your expensive double-basilisk? Sounds like you are throwing good points after bad at this point.
Buffing it is nice so a 40 point searchlight can buff 2 basilisk's worth of firepower instead of one.
Still, seems totally not worth it. If my enemy had Basilisks and a Minotaur, I would ignore the minotaur and kill the basilisks. If they had only a Minotaur, I would still ignore it. I would rather have 5 basilisks than 2 Minotaurs.
To each their own, but keep in mind the minotaur is -literally- a few wounds shy of the exact durability of an imperial knight, and 3 minotaurs to fill out a superheavy detachment is only 840 pts, which still leaves plenty of pts for other stuff in a 2k IG army. Throw in the jury rigging strategem and a techpriest (yes I know the techpriests costs pts but totally worth it) and you have a -really- hard to kill artillery line that, unlike an IK, doesn't even have to leave melee to keep firing. Your opponent literally has to kill them (which will take a ton of firepower), or they simply will not stop firing. That is worth quite a bit especially against assault armies and alpha strike armies, especially if you use Defensive Gunners strategem.
I would rather have 6 basilisks that are guaranteed to be firing every turn, than 8 that will certainly be targetted and either destroyed or whittled down using less firepower.
If you really want to be a troll, stick 1 or 2 astropaths behind a minotaur to buff its invul save and/or penalize shooting hit rolls against it. If it still dies? Guess what, the astropath gets to run off and go buff something else. No waste.
I'm going to experiment with Hydra platforms. I don't think they will do much damage as Elder are likely to either have a -2 to hit or -1 with a serpent shields, but with 8 shots they should definitely do a wound and that's all I need to give basilisk overlapping fields of fire.
Plan B in the complete absence of flyers wound a tank or MC with a basilisk and use overlapping field of fire to hit with a 4+ with the Hydras.
Been using the Bullgryn with shields of varying types. Priests and astropath. They are my new favourite unit. Took an entire shooting phase from tau with taking a few models.
Also with the current "meta" Im thinking faster moving units will become more prolific. So I'm opting to use the Banehammer. Love it so far.
The banehammer is a nifty little tank, yeah. Its just got so much utility. It can stop enemy units in their tracks, possibly saving you from a charge, it can deal decent damage, it can transport a significant amount of heavy hitters... especially the big guys. Just a very useful model.
rhinoceraids wrote: Been using the Bullgryn with shields of varying types. Priests and astropath. They are my new favourite unit. Took an entire shooting phase from tau with taking a few models.
Also with the current "meta" Im thinking faster moving units will become more prolific. So I'm opting to use the Banehammer. Love it so far.
I am a huge fan of running bullgryns, but what benefit is the astropath with them? Just for nightshroud?
If you want to hassle people with Bullgryns, why not just take that Custodes guy who gives a 5++ then all your cats can just get a 2+ AND a 3++ then psychic barrier them for 2++.
Colonel Cross wrote: If you want to hassle people with Bullgryns, why not just take that Custodes guy who gives a 5++ then all your cats can just get a 2+ AND a 3++ then psychic barrier them for 2++.
Thats how I'm currently running mine. Its mighty expensive but those custodes pack a punch on their own. 2+ 3++ t5 multi wound dudes are a distraction carnifex that can't be ignored. Technically the only way to get inside their invul is to assault at which point you're dealing with bullgryns (supported by a priest) and a custodes who can do a heroic intervention. Tasty.
As I said expensive though. I was running 6 bullgryns with the priest and custodes but in order to make points elsewhere I changed it to 3 bullgryns, a priest and an ogryn body guard with the deathmask that actually does give him 2++ (and regain wounds)
I just started collecting Astra Militarum and I need to think about what to do/buy next.
Usually I read that Infantry Squad main objective is "to die" and do some "screening". That's it
I'd like to think out of the box and do not treat them as expendable models... for fluff reasons.
How one could achieve AM list where troop choice is something more than body to throw at the enemy?
I was thinking even about using scions exclusively as a troop choice
I just started collecting Astra Militarum and I need to think about what to do/buy next.
Usually I read that Infantry Squad main objective is "to die" and do some "screening". That's it
I'd like to think out of the box and do not treat them as expendable models... for fluff reasons.
How one could achieve AM list where troop choice is something more than body to throw at the enemy?
I was thinking even about using scions exclusively as a troop choice
Infantry squads are even more expendable in the fluff than they are in the game
If what you mean by more use is more damage output, then scions might not be a bad option - I don't have much experience with them tho. But otherwise, I wouldn't underestimate the importance of infantry as screening units / board control. Units with mortars are great for plugging holes in your backfield to deny deepstrikers. Alternatively again, if you're looking for more damage output, give them lascannons - 9 ablative wounds on a lascannon can be nice. I think someone posted a while back about running a heap of Catachan infantry at the enemy with the intent of getting into cc
Has anybody used the Hades drill with any success? Looks like such a cool model. Some pretty good rules. Comes with an entire squad of guardsmen with shotguns.
Thinking something for objective grabbers. Drill charges a vehicle. Troops get on objective.
Thoughts?
Ill be fielding my Venator again. Since the FAQ it means when it deep strikes it has the 5++ since its assumed to have moved the max distance.
I just started collecting Astra Militarum and I need to think about what to do/buy next.
Usually I read that Infantry Squad main objective is "to die" and do some "screening". That's it
I'd like to think out of the box and do not treat them as expendable models... for fluff reasons.
How one could achieve AM list where troop choice is something more than body to throw at the enemy?
I was thinking even about using scions exclusively as a troop choice
Well to be fair that's not just an IG problem, most armies troops are treated that way, space marine scouts being a good example. You'll note many codexes complain that their troops aren't as efficient as guardsmen, and this is often what they're talking about. 8th edition is an insanely deadly edition and ironically guardsmen are more durable per point than tac Marines for example.
For Imperial Guard infantry, your best bet would be an armored fist company of some kind utilizing transports. Simply put there's no sort of infantry army you can run that isn't going to be losing dozens of models a turn. That's why all infantry guard armies are going to be horde armies. Even "elite" lists comprised of Vets or Stormtroopers needs a lot of bodies to ensure at least a few live to the end of the game.
If you insist on not taking transports, your only real option would be some sort of Tallarn outflankers force, and even there you're going to be leaving the larger half of your force on the table to weather the opening storm.
Well to be fair that's not just an IG problem, most armies troops are treated that way, space marine scouts being a good example. You'll note many codexes complain that their troops aren't as efficient as guardsmen, and this is often what they're talking about. 8th edition is an insanely deadly edition and ironically guardsmen are more durable per point than tac Marines for example.
For Imperial Guard infantry, your best bet would be an armored fist company of some kind utilizing transports. Simply put there's no sort of infantry army you can run that isn't going to be losing dozens of models a turn. That's why all infantry guard armies are going to be horde armies. Even "elite" lists comprised of Vets or Stormtroopers needs a lot of bodies to ensure at least a few live to the end of the game.
If you insist on not taking transports, your only real option would be some sort of Tallarn outflankers force, and even there you're going to be leaving the larger half of your force on the table to weather the opening storm.
And what regiment to use in case of army utilising lots of transports (chimeras)? I thought about tallarn as being able to shoot without penalty after moving can actually help to maintain high mobility of troops.
I saw that lots of people actually prefer armagedon though for such purpouses.
Gnollu wrote: How one could achieve AM list where troop choice is something more than body to throw at the enemy?
You don't. Even our "elite" infantry are still glass cannons that drop in, do a ton of damage, and die. The first thing you have to get used to as an IG player is removing piles of models at a time, and trusting in the fact that you have plenty more where those came from.
Well to be fair that's not just an IG problem, most armies troops are treated that way, space marine scouts being a good example. You'll note many codexes complain that their troops aren't as efficient as guardsmen, and this is often what they're talking about. 8th edition is an insanely deadly edition and ironically guardsmen are more durable per point than tac Marines for example.
For Imperial Guard infantry, your best bet would be an armored fist company of some kind utilizing transports. Simply put there's no sort of infantry army you can run that isn't going to be losing dozens of models a turn. That's why all infantry guard armies are going to be horde armies. Even "elite" lists comprised of Vets or Stormtroopers needs a lot of bodies to ensure at least a few live to the end of the game.
If you insist on not taking transports, your only real option would be some sort of Tallarn outflankers force, and even there you're going to be leaving the larger half of your force on the table to weather the opening storm.
And what regiment to use in case of army utilising lots of transports (chimeras)? I thought about tallarn as being able to shoot without penalty after moving can actually help to maintain high mobility of troops.
I saw that lots of people actually prefer armagedon though for such purpouses.
Nah, Armageddon is a bit too slow I feel. Using their order and transport leads to using your chimeras as immobile bunkers, and moving takes three turns minimum. If you could get out of the transport after moving, it would work. If you could get back in the same turn you got out of your transport, it could work. But as is... Im not a fan. Tallarn all the way. At least I can stay mobile that way.
So I've been noticing a trend of late, at least with Dark Eldar and Necrons that I'm struggling to keep Pask alive, and with that many points nuked on a turn 1 Alpha strike (can't always keep him out of LoS after their maneuvers) I find it a struggle to play catch-up when my turn comes around.
Does anyone else reckon that Pask is no longer competitive due to the fact that he's just as vulnerable as a normal leman russ? Destroyers hurt man.
Naix wrote: So I've been noticing a trend of late, at least with Dark Eldar and Necrons that I'm struggling to keep Pask alive, and with that many points nuked on a turn 1 Alpha strike (can't always keep him out of LoS after their maneuvers) I find it a struggle to play catch-up when my turn comes around.
Does anyone else reckon that Pask is no longer competitive due to the fact that he's just as vulnerable as a normal leman russ? Destroyers hurt man.
He's only about 10 points more than a regular command tank for serious bonuses, I would say he is fine. I just wouldnt kit him out to the nines, I'd just leave him with turret weapon and maybe a lascannon. The more weapons you put on him the bigger a target he becomes.
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Good thing I had brought tons of extra with me! So with various random models including Yarric as fireblade it looked more like 
