tag8833 wrote: Are Melta Scions still worth it? I was dubious about them before the price hike, and afterwards I dropped them from my list, but I've found that my list doesn't have as much anti-vehicle firepower as I'd like, and I'm going to be phasing out the anti-vehicle tauroxes (ML + AC), and I need to find anti-tank somewhere.
What job does a 12" threat deepstrike do that a shadowsword couldn't do better? Competitive lists have scouts, nurglings, rangers, stealth suits, other things that infiltrate. If they don't want you hitting something at 12" and they are running a good list, you won't get that melta shot.
They don't really add much anymore. If you've got guys living past the drop they can sometimes be handy, but usually they're either out of range or whiff. I replaced mine with plasma.
In a pure Scion list theyre about your only source of serious AT, so you'd be stuck with them, but theyre not ideal anymore, that's for sure. That 9" drop really hurts them. When plasma is cheaper, gets more shots, and gets roughly the same damage anyways I'm not entirely sure why you would run them in stormtrooper squads anymore unless you're doing airdrops from Valkyries.
Hey all, having a bit of a conundrum. Do ye prefer Tank Commanders or normal Leman Russ's?
I am either going to make a Supreme Detach. W/ 3 Tank Commanders, Battle Cannon, 2x Plasma Cannons and Lascannons and Platoon Commander
Or
i will make a Spearhead Detach. W/ Company Commander and 4 Leman Russ's w/ Battle Cannons and Lascannons as they cannot re-rolling 1s.
I'm swinging towards the Supreme Commander detach, just because everything hits on 3s and can re-rolling 1s while the Spearhead will just be lots of strong firepower hitting on 4s with no re-rolls.
In my opinion Tank Commanders are better, because besides the improved WS, they also have orders and (correct me if I'm wrong), they can order the other commanders.
Theo4016 wrote: In my opinion Tank Commanders are better, because besides the improved WS, they also have orders and (correct me if I'm wrong), they can order the other commanders.
Yeah, they can Order Leman Russ's which let's you Order other TC or themselves. I think 3 TC is probably better then 4 Russ's.
So remember there is the Stratagem which allows an officer who just issued an order to issue another one. So I tend to use that in order to save a few points by just having a regular tank as a side kick to a TC. Additionally, not all tank variants benefit much by being upgraded to a TC. I run a fireball punisher and there is no need to increase that beast in points just for +1 BS.
I wish the tanks had a sightly increased orders range. 6" for a dude yelling at his soldiers seems reasonable. But tank to tank orders being the same distance seems silly and is quite limiting, but that's another issue entirely.
And Tag, Elysians are the kings of min-maxing your deep strike special weapons. You don't expect your suicide squads to survive the next round, so lack of armor is definitely worth the deceased points cost. You basically only care about different BS at that point. I think they're worth it.
Colonel Cross wrote: So remember there is the Stratagem which allows an officer who just issued an order to issue another one. So I tend to use that in order to save a few points by just having a regular tank as a side kick to a TC. Additionally, not all tank variants benefit much by being upgraded to a TC. I run a fireball punisher and there is no need to increase that beast in points just for +1 BS.
I wish the tanks had a sightly increased orders range. 6" for a dude yelling at his soldiers seems reasonable. But tank to tank orders being the same distance seems silly and is quite limiting, but that's another issue entirely.
And Tag, Elysians are the kings of min-maxing your deep strike special weapons. You don't expect your suicide squads to survive the next round, so lack of armor is definitely worth the deceased points cost. You basically only care about different BS at that point. I think they're worth it.
Vox Casters should be able to push out your Tank Orders
BTW I'm on Team Pask Team Overlapping Fields of Fire! and 3 LRBT with Plasma and More Plasma
Theo4016 wrote: In my opinion Tank Commanders are better, because besides the improved WS, they also have orders and (correct me if I'm wrong), they can order the other commanders.
They are more reliable but are 3 TCs really better than 4 leman russes. I mean I would want 4 in order to give the enemy more targets. It is my opinion that the guard have always been quantity over quality. I like to run infantry squads with lascannons so that way it overwhelms my opponent in picking a target. They cant avoid all that punishment. I would take a tank commander if I was running one tank and if I was running more I would have maybe one tank commander then have 2-3 russes.
Resipsa131 wrote: Vox Casters should be able to push out your Tank Orders
BTW I'm on Team Pask Team Overlapping Fields of Fire! and 3 LRBT with Plasma and More Plasma
Unfortunately tanks aren't affected by vox casters as the recieving tank doesn't have a vox caster to recieve the order. That makes no sense as Leman Russes should have radios and/or increased order range.
Not sure why leman russes. Why not a shadowsword? If you get first turn you can give it -1 to hit and +1 save, and it is dynamite in melee. And all its sponsons don't take the heavy penalty.
Hello folks. Long time lurker in the dakka fourms and there are some sweet combos here I can't wait to try, especially the Tallern Punisher Russ combo running over unsuspecting blokes on a 2+.
So with the custodes banner dude giving units wholly within 9" at 5++ save, does that mean we can potentially give a conscript blob at 4++ save with psychic barrier?
Smitetheheretic wrote: Hello folks. Long time lurker in the dakka fourms and there are some sweet combos here I can't wait to try, especially the Tallern Punisher Russ combo running over unsuspecting blokes on a 2+.
So with the custodes banner dude giving units wholly within 9" at 5++ save, does that mean we can potentially give a conscript blob at 4++ save with psychic barrier?
Sure at enough points to make them some of the more expensive infantry formations AM has ever wielded.
Smitetheheretic wrote: Hello folks. Long time lurker in the dakka fourms and there are some sweet combos here I can't wait to try, especially the Tallern Punisher Russ combo running over unsuspecting blokes on a 2+.
So with the custodes banner dude giving units wholly within 9" at 5++ save, does that mean we can potentially give a conscript blob at 4++ save with psychic barrier?
Sure at enough points to make them some of the more expensive infantry formations AM has ever wielded.
Thanks for the response! I see your point, could also be used with infantry squads, but a 40-man tarpit at 4++ with morale buffs is hard to ignore. Oh the possibilities.
Smitetheheretic wrote: Hello folks. Long time lurker in the dakka fourms and there are some sweet combos here I can't wait to try, especially the Tallern Punisher Russ combo running over unsuspecting blokes on a 2+.
So with the custodes banner dude giving units wholly within 9" at 5++ save, does that mean we can potentially give a conscript blob at 4++ save with psychic barrier?
Sure at enough points to make them some of the more expensive infantry formations AM has ever wielded.
Thanks for the response! I see your point, could also be used with infantry squads, but a 40-man tarpit at 4++ with morale buffs is hard to ignore. Oh the possibilities.
It would definitely be hard to ignore, as it would be an illegal formation.
Smitetheheretic wrote: Hello folks. Long time lurker in the dakka fourms and there are some sweet combos here I can't wait to try, especially the Tallern Punisher Russ combo running over unsuspecting blokes on a 2+.
So with the custodes banner dude giving units wholly within 9" at 5++ save, does that mean we can potentially give a conscript blob at 4++ save with psychic barrier?
Sure at enough points to make them some of the more expensive infantry formations AM has ever wielded.
Thanks for the response! I see your point, could also be used with infantry squads, but a 40-man tarpit at 4++ with morale buffs is hard to ignore. Oh the possibilities.
It would definitely be hard to ignore, as it would be an illegal formation.
How so? Conscripts can take up to 40 bodies in a squad, unless I'm missing something from the faq. So long as the stay wholly within the 9", where would the illegality be?
Smitetheheretic wrote: Hello folks. Long time lurker in the dakka fourms and there are some sweet combos here I can't wait to try, especially the Tallern Punisher Russ combo running over unsuspecting blokes on a 2+.
So with the custodes banner dude giving units wholly within 9" at 5++ save, does that mean we can potentially give a conscript blob at 4++ save with psychic barrier?
Sure at enough points to make them some of the more expensive infantry formations AM has ever wielded.
Thanks for the response! I see your point, could also be used with infantry squads, but a 40-man tarpit at 4++ with morale buffs is hard to ignore. Oh the possibilities.
It would definitely be hard to ignore, as it would be an illegal formation.
How so? Conscripts can take up to 40 bodies in a squad, unless I'm missing something from the faq. So long as the stay wholly within the 9", where would the illegality be?
Wulfey wrote: Not sure why leman russes. Why not a shadowsword? If you get first turn you can give it -1 to hit and +1 save, and it is dynamite in melee. And all its sponsons don't take the heavy penalty.
Leman russe's are more durable per point, allow you to spread your firepower, and your psyker strategy is easily telegraphed and defeated, either through deny the witch or by not getting first turn. Not arguing that shadowswords aren't amazing, just that there are serious reasons to choose a Russ detachment (because it will be anywhere from 2-3 russe's per baneblade chassis) Basically it's different strokes for different folks.
For me I prefer more regular russe's over tank commanders. It's normally a 1-2 tank difference per points spent by the time upgrades are totalled, which I find more useful than higher BS. Seems to match better with infantry guard.
Wulfey wrote: Not sure why leman russes. Why not a shadowsword? If you get first turn you can give it -1 to hit and +1 save, and it is dynamite in melee. And all its sponsons don't take the heavy penalty.
Many reasons are available.
1. Shadowsword is wasting some of its strength on lower than toughness 7.
2. It only gets 3-9 shots
3. Limited detachments have a LOW slot.
LRBT 1. Hits just as hard as a shadowsword against anything t4. Up to t7 still wounding on a 3.
2. Gets 2-12 shots per tank. Three tanks is 6-36 shots.
3. Easy to pop into detachments.
Shadowsword is strong, but so is LRBT.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Smitetheheretic wrote: Hello folks. Long time lurker in the dakka fourms and there are some sweet combos here I can't wait to try, especially the Tallern Punisher Russ combo running over unsuspecting blokes on a 2+.
So with the custodes banner dude giving units wholly within 9" at 5++ save, does that mean we can potentially give a conscript blob at 4++ save with psychic barrier?
Yeah. But why would you want to? Infantry squads are better anyway. Conscripts are a dead unit outside of a couple rare circumstances.
Battalion:
Tempestor prime with command rod
Primaris psyker
2 astropaths
5 Scion squads with plasma gun and plasma pistol
2 taurox primes with Gatling cannon and volley guns
2 taurox primes with missile launchers
Scions start in the air to drop in, tauroxes on the board and astropaths buff them. Should be able to be built from 4 start collecting boxes, an extra scions box and a couple of converted characters
DoomMouse wrote: Battalion:
Tempestor prime with command rod
Primaris psyker
2 astropaths
5 Scion squads with plasma gun and plasma pistol
2 taurox primes with Gatling cannon and volley guns
2 taurox primes with missile launchers
Scions start in the air to drop in, tauroxes on the board and astropaths buff them. Should be able to be built from 4 start collecting boxes, an extra scions box and a couple of converted characters
It's certainly not a weak list, but not tournament winning either. Should be fine for a beginner. Guard will always do better with some screening bodies though, if just to keep the enemy from charging the tauroxes
Company Commander [2 PL, 30pts]: Chainsword, Laspistol
++ Total: [52 PL, 860pts] ++
The basic difference is;
Supreme Detach. Is 8d6 S8 -2 D D3 shots w/ 4 S9 -3 D D6 shots all hitting on 3s (if not moved) and re-rolling 1s .
Spearhead Detach. Is 10d6 S8 -2 D D3 shots w/ 5 S9 -3 D D6 all hitting on 4s (if not moved) with no re-rolls.
I personally prefer the Supreme as it's more reliable shooting and it is 1 less drop. The Spearhead has more "durability" due to an extra LR but everything hitting on 4s means only half of what I shoot will make contact and that's before the wounding phase.
What would you guy recommend I take? The rest of my army is 2 Flyrants, 3 x 18 Genestealers, 1 GSC Magus and 1 GSC neophytes.
If you're running tank commanders you may as well find the points for heavy bolter sponsons and heavy stubbers - you're already paying for that awesome platform of BS3+ re rolling ones, so these would be the best value heavy bolters and stuvbbers you can buy - they're priced assuming they'll be firing at BS 4+
Also, if you definitely want a random elite slot filled, an astropath would be so much better than a naked platoon commander. Give him psychic maelstrom and he can provide some nice mortal wounds and an extra denial.
I reckon that dropping enough genestealers to pay for these would definitely make your first list stronger!
DoomMouse wrote: If you're running tank commanders you may as well find the points for heavy bolter sponsons and heavy stubbers - you're already paying for that awesome platform of BS3+ re rolling ones, so these would be the best value heavy bolters and stuvbbers you can buy - they're priced assuming they'll be firing at BS 4+
Also, if you definitely want a random elite slot filled, an astropath would be so much better than a naked platoon commander. Give him psychic maelstrom and he can provide some nice mortal wounds and an extra denial.
I reckon that dropping enough genestealers to pay for these would definitely make your first list stronger!
-Edited-
Awesome advise.
I could drop 5 Genestealers for 2x Heavy Bolters on each Commander giving me 24 S5 -1 d1 shots. I won't use the Stubbers though. Can't find the points to add them in.
My Plate Commander is my Warlord so I have access to Grand Strategist and Relics.
I'll probably keep the Plat Commander over Astro, I already have 3 ways to deny with the Flyrants giving a -1 to pyskers.
The last couple of weeks I've reverted to single-tank superheavy lists, and both weeks they've been one-shot (by that I mean died in one phase from 100% to 0%, not by literally a single shot) despite psyker support.
I'm increasingly convinced that either Leman Russ spam (appropriately screened of course) or running 3 superheavies is better, because 1 superheavy is just begging to be insta-nuked, and for its price there's SO MUCH in codex IG you could purchase. A max-sponson Shadowsword is literally a brigade of Imperial Guard or three Tank Commander russes (or 3.5 regular russes) by itself. God forbid you put twin Heavy Flamers on it, then you can squeeze in an entire Spearhead detachment of Russes for its cost.
Company Commander [2 PL, 30pts]: Chainsword, Laspistol
++ Total: [52 PL, 860pts] ++
The basic difference is;
Supreme Detach. Is 8d6 S8 -2 D D3 shots w/ 4 S9 -3 D D6 shots all hitting on 3s (if not moved) and re-rolling 1s .
Spearhead Detach. Is 10d6 S8 -2 D D3 shots w/ 5 S9 -3 D D6 all hitting on 4s (if not moved) with no re-rolls.
I personally prefer the Supreme as it's more reliable shooting and it is 1 less drop. The Spearhead has more "durability" due to an extra LR but everything hitting on 4s means only half of what I shoot will make contact and that's before the wounding phase.
What would you guy recommend I take? The rest of my army is 2 Flyrants, 3 x 18 Genestealers, 1 GSC Magus and 1 GSC neophytes.
Does the ETC use ITC rules? If they do I'd steer well away from 3 Tank Commanders as they'd gift secondary points to your enemy. Big game hunter combined with Headhunter would give your opponent 2 bonus points every time he killed one. The 4 LRBT would only give him one bonus point everytime they're killed if he took big game hunter.
Are you playing ETC in Ireland (based off your flag) Where are the games held?
The last couple of weeks I've reverted to single-tank superheavy lists, and both weeks they've been one-shot (by that I mean died in one phase from 100% to 0%, not by literally a single shot) despite psyker support.
I'm increasingly convinced that either Leman Russ spam (appropriately screened of course) or running 3 superheavies is better, because 1 superheavy is just begging to be insta-nuked, and for its price there's SO MUCH in codex IG you could purchase. A max-sponson Shadowsword is literally a brigade of Imperial Guard or three Tank Commander russes (or 3.5 regular russes) by itself. God forbid you put twin Heavy Flamers on it, then you can squeeze in an entire Spearhead detachment of Russes for its cost.
I agree, 3 Russes >>> than 1 Baneblade variant. My Baneblade regularly goes from full hull points to zero in 1 turn, it just isn't worth it.
The last couple of weeks I've reverted to single-tank superheavy lists, and both weeks they've been one-shot (by that I mean died in one phase from 100% to 0%, not by literally a single shot) despite psyker support.
I'm increasingly convinced that either Leman Russ spam (appropriately screened of course) or running 3 superheavies is better, because 1 superheavy is just begging to be insta-nuked, and for its price there's SO MUCH in codex IG you could purchase. A max-sponson Shadowsword is literally a brigade of Imperial Guard or three Tank Commander russes (or 3.5 regular russes) by itself. God forbid you put twin Heavy Flamers on it, then you can squeeze in an entire Spearhead detachment of Russes for its cost.
I agree, 3 Russes >>> than 1 Baneblade variant. My Baneblade regularly goes from full hull points to zero in 1 turn, it just isn't worth it.
BUT I LIKE THEM SO MUCH
that I run 3. It's funny, because 3 sometimes gets a rise out of people, but they're perfectly happy to thoughtlessly derp one off the board. I usually have to say outloud "this is why I usually bring three." and then it clicks that they might not be as ridiculously OP as they seem, lol.
I took a look through this thread and couldn't find an answer: can I take a Tech-Priest Enginseer in an Astra Militarum detachment as an HQ?
My reasoning being: he's an HQ choice under the Adeptus Mechanicus army list. He doesn't have ASTRA MILITARUM in the Mechanicus codex, though. I see two possible explanations here:
1) I can take him as an HQ choice in an Adeptus Militarum detachment.
2) I can take him as an HQ choice in an Imperium detachment.
I've been reading my codex, and I can include Tech-Priest Enginseers in a Militarum detachment without losing my regimental doctrine. What I can't figure out though, is if I can include an Enginseer (as an HQ) in an Astra Militarum detachment even if he doesn't have ASTRA MILITARUM.
Anyone try Hydras recently? Haven't brought mine out in a while, but with all of the Alaitoc shenanigans, I'm thinking it may be worth it to dust them off since they got a modest points drop back in December. Being able to hit Alaitoc tanks/fliers on 4's/5's seems like a good way to get the scratch wound needed to activate OFoF. Assuming Tau and DE get some buffs in their codices, that could offer up some more ideal targets.
RogueApiary wrote: Anyone try Hydras recently? Haven't brought mine out in a while, but with all of the Alaitoc shenanigans, I'm thinking it may be worth it to dust them off since they got a modest points drop back in December. Being able to hit Alaitoc tanks/fliers on 4's/5's seems like a good way to get the scratch wound needed to activate OFoF. Assuming Tau and DE get some buffs in their codices, that could offer up some more ideal targets.
Well they're cheap at least. I'd be worried about actually scoring meaningful hits though. That lack of AP hurts and it's not actually as many shots as it first appears. I've been running large amount Cadian autocannon teams due to owning the models and even with their pure rerolling to hit at 5's (so roughly an unaided Hydra accuracy wise) they don't really add much. I had more luck fishing for lucky lascannon hits through weight of fire and even just FRFSRF. That is however anecdotal and the math may say otherwise, just my experience.
New AM player reporting. Just got my small Battalion started up and am looking to expand it to a Battalion and a Spearhead for the juicy ObSec Leman Russes.
Already got 2 LRBTs (other one is a TC) but I'm curious which LR variants are worthwhile at the moment? I have always feared the Executioner as a marine player but are they still effective now that the templates are gone? Is a basic Punisher worth it or do you need to take Pask to dish out the hurt?
From what I gather the Vanquisher, Exterminator and Demolisher variants are kinda rubbish..
So LRBT spam all the way or mix in some other variants?
meleti wrote: I took a look through this thread and couldn't find an answer: can I take a Tech-Priest Enginseer in an Astra Militarum detachment as an HQ?
My reasoning being: he's an HQ choice under the Adeptus Mechanicus army list. He doesn't have ASTRA MILITARUM in the Mechanicus codex, though. I see two possible explanations here:
1) I can take him as an HQ choice in an Adeptus Militarum detachment.
2) I can take him as an HQ choice in an Imperium detachment.
I've been reading my codex, and I can include Tech-Priest Enginseers in a Militarum detachment without losing my regimental doctrine. What I can't figure out though, is if I can include an Enginseer (as an HQ) in an Astra Militarum detachment even if he doesn't have ASTRA MILITARUM.
This is a YMDC question it shouldn't be in tactics
1) it can be an Imperium it cannot be astra militarum as the HQ version does not have the keyword.
2) It could be included in a <regiment> detatchment as the specific exemption that you can include certain units in the detatchment without preventing others gaining the regiment bonus names them specifically includeing tech-priest enginseer. It doesn't differentiate which one.
Weazel wrote: New AM player reporting. Just got my small Battalion started up and am looking to expand it to a Battalion and a Spearhead for the juicy ObSec Leman Russes.
Already got 2 LRBTs (other one is a TC) but I'm curious which LR variants are worthwhile at the moment? I have always feared the Executioner as a marine player but are they still effective now that the templates are gone? Is a basic Punisher worth it or do you need to take Pask to dish out the hurt?
From what I gather the Vanquisher, Exterminator and Demolisher variants are kinda rubbish..
So LRBT spam all the way or mix in some other variants?
LRBT is probably the best all rounder - but mixing in punishers and/or executioners is certainly viable. Leman russes don't ever get obsec though - it's just troops in the AM codex.
Weazel wrote: New AM player reporting. Just got my small Battalion started up and am looking to expand it to a Battalion and a Spearhead for the juicy ObSec Leman Russes.
Already got 2 LRBTs (other one is a TC) but I'm curious which LR variants are worthwhile at the moment? I have always feared the Executioner as a marine player but are they still effective now that the templates are gone? Is a basic Punisher worth it or do you need to take Pask to dish out the hurt?
From what I gather the Vanquisher, Exterminator and Demolisher variants are kinda rubbish..
So LRBT spam all the way or mix in some other variants?
the LRBT battle cannon hits a sweet spot with grinding advance. Str 8 means you wound tanks and vehicles at worst on a 4, 2d6 shots is respectable and ventures into anti infantry range of shots, ap -2 means most things will be reduced to 5+ but rarely is the ap wasted and d3 damage combined with the number of shots means armor just evaporated and rarely per shot is much damage wasted.
2d6 shots- same Str -AP3 which is better and while AVG dam is the same it guarentees it does 2 so if you direct it a 2W infantry it will get kill each time where as a battle cannon will fail 1/3 of the time.
Downside is it self wounds but this can be reduced from 1/6 of shots to 1/36 of shots by rerolling 1s
Okay so I'll probably start up with a TC in LRBT and 3x LRBT. Maybe add Pask in a Punisher later for hosing down infantry.
What about sponsons? Heavy Bolters all round, LC on TC? I know that leaving sponsons home is probably the most cost effective solution, but I like modeling them on..
Stus67 wrote: Does anybody use plasmas in their basic infantry squads? If not what other special weapons do you see as useful?
I run mine with power sword, plasmagun, and plasma pistol. I play Mordian though, so I benefit from the bonus to overwatch as well as having the character sniping doctrine. I'm not sure it would be quite as worth it for anyone else.
As far as other special weapons? I wouldn't bother. Anything you put in them is going to be lost when they get chewed up as your screen, so stuff like lascannons are probably too expensive, and none of the other weapons are really worth it. Plasma is just TOO good.
I run a fairly unique list, but I don't put any specials on my guardsmen. The big tanks do the heavy lifting, and the Guardsmen do light duties (like killing chaff). FRFSRF lasguns are fantastic compliments to the heavy tank guns.
Stus67 wrote: Does anybody use plasmas in their basic infantry squads? If not what other special weapons do you see as useful?
For special weapons (not HWT) I eitehr pack plasma if I'm lacking anti-tank (which is rare) or flamers when I expect to be charged. Killing an extra 2-4 models when they come into you can be pretty nifty.
I really believe in the power of the 10 man standard infantry lasrifle squad. When all the weapons match the same profile you can get a lot of work done.
The last couple of weeks I've reverted to single-tank superheavy lists, and both weeks they've been one-shot (by that I mean died in one phase from 100% to 0%, not by literally a single shot) despite psyker support.
I'm increasingly convinced that either Leman Russ spam (appropriately screened of course) or running 3 superheavies is better, because 1 superheavy is just begging to be insta-nuked, and for its price there's SO MUCH in codex IG you could purchase. A max-sponson Shadowsword is literally a brigade of Imperial Guard or three Tank Commander russes (or 3.5 regular russes) by itself. God forbid you put twin Heavy Flamers on it, then you can squeeze in an entire Spearhead detachment of Russes for its cost.
100 percent. It is not hard to kill superheavies for most lists. Against even a russ, shots will end up wasted on overkill, adding a fair number of effective wounds verse a superheavy
Thanks for the replies. Now what about running plasma with a lascannon HWT? I usually run tallarn and never touch a 60mm base, but now I'm playing around with Cadian gun lines, and I'm just not sure if having a plasma in addition to HWTs is very efficient.
I know I probably want to run at least 6 squads with a HWT lascannon each to back up my 3 leman russes, and I have a bucket of Scions to capture objectives for me.
I have bought the FW index, and so this is my new improved list.
Two detachments: vanguard and spearheard. Playing as Tallarn. WL: great strategist (I lack PC).
The cyclops demolitions vehicles can, I believe,help create some space and avoid me being charged T1. The gryphonne pattern chimeras, the vulture and the punisher are here for the hordes. The psyker, the command squad and the company commander are in the same chimera. I have 22 pts left. It is not intended to be tournament competitive. What do you think about my armored company themed list ?
Do you have a particular reason for all the melta over plasma? Because 90% of targets are killed just as efficiently or more so by plasma these days. That would also free up some points for other things. Even something as simple as a power weapon on the officers can go a long way. Melta at 17pts per vet is pretty rough these days. Plasma at 13pts means you'd save 12 pts per squad by switching to plasma. It would also give you more volume of fire for high AP shots should you run into things with high saves.
gendoikari87 wrote: Anyone else getting sick of people complaining about guard?
Yes. It’s one of the reasons I stopped coming to dakka dakka very often. That and I moved and have no one to play with. Just focus on gaming and ignore the internet blather if it is getting to you. None of it really matters.
I castle up the artillery with Harker and the enginseer and two infantry as bubble wrap. The tallarn infantry ambush thanks to a combo of their stratagem and the dagger.
In terms of cc I have Celestine, ogryn bodyguard, 4 more catachan infantry who will have 3 attacks each thanks to a priest and Straken and rough riders.
I'm pretty good in the psychic phase with a librarian, primaris psyker and the culexus being reasonable in attack and awesome in defence.
Currently for antitank I have the two devildogs which I ambush within 12" of enemy tanks to maximize the meltacannons as well as the manticores and the basilisk.
I have 57 points to spend on antitank although if said antitank comes in the form of an Imperium elite slot that will go up to 65 points (I'm currently taking an acolyte as a Vanguard tax) Does anyone have any suggestions?
I'm loath to give special weapons to either my catachan or tallarn infantry as I traditionally use "move, move, move" to get them onto objectives. When possible I use the ambushing tallarn plus that order to run my guys onto objective markers opponent might be on in his side. They can't shoot or assault but if I went second it allows me to steal an objective simply by have more objective secured units near the marker.
Someone questioned a few days ago the difference between taking a enginseer as an Astra Mechanicus HQ or an AM Elite. Outside of the losing of AM doctrines the HQ enginseer is actually 10 points more expensive. Even in a soup detachment its probably more advantageous to take the AM elite version with an Acolyte to save 2 points (I know its not much but two bolters is two bolters) especially since supreme command detachments allow for zero fast, troop and heavy and only 1 elite rather than a Vanguard which doesn't have these limits.
Stus67 wrote: Thanks for the replies. Now what about running plasma with a lascannon HWT? I usually run tallarn and never touch a 60mm base, but now I'm playing around with Cadian gun lines, and I'm just not sure if having a plasma in addition to HWTs is very efficient.
I know I probably want to run at least 6 squads with a HWT lascannon each to back up my 3 leman russes, and I have a bucket of Scions to capture objectives for me.
I used to run a bunch of Lascannons/plas. Nowadays, I tend to just run an hwt in the squad, usually a mortar. The squads in the back with Lascannons never really got to shoot the plasma, and the squads up front just straight up die. Maybe sprinkle a couple plasmas in the second row of chaff, but I wouldn't double up on special/heavy. Especially now that if the squad gets dropped to those as the last two in the unit, you sand a good chance of losing one or both to morale.
Smitetheheretic wrote: Hello folks. Long time lurker in the dakka fourms and there are some sweet combos here I can't wait to try, especially the Tallern Punisher Russ combo running over unsuspecting blokes on a 2+.
So with the custodes banner dude giving units wholly within 9" at 5++ save, does that mean we can potentially give a conscript blob at 4++ save with psychic barrier?
Sure at enough points to make them some of the more expensive infantry formations AM has ever wielded.
Thanks for the response! I see your point, could also be used with infantry squads, but a 40-man tarpit at 4++ with morale buffs is hard to ignore. Oh the possibilities.
It would definitely be hard to ignore, as it would be an illegal formation.
How so? Conscripts can take up to 40 bodies in a squad, unless I'm missing something from the faq. So long as the stay wholly within the 9", where would the illegality be?
Max unit size is 30 for Conscripts.
Oh bollocks. My convolution strikes again. Forget what I said, but this is what I had in mind: two conscript squads, maxed out. 60 bodies. Add custodies banner guy, psychic barrier.
The 60 bodies consolidate into one squad
Make them dkk conscripts, so now they blow off morale checks with a chuckle as their buddies die by the droves around them (cult of sacrifice).
Add command squad and priest and now you have a 4++ invun blob with +2 attacks for some serious cc tarpitting.
Seems legal. Also seems like a good screen for the rest of my army. Will be spending leftover points on plasmas.
The problem with the Vexilla Defensor is that the unit has to be wholly within 9". Shouldn't be too hard, but it stops you from daisy-chaining the conscripts as bubble wrap.
Conscripts got a hammer to the knees last year. All they're good for now is bubble wrapping (debatable as the larger squads lose more to morale, worse armor, and order-inefficiency that messes up GBITF/Fix bayonets/whatever) and being an efficient target for buffs compared to 10-man infantry squads unless you consolidate infantry for 1CP
9" bubble decent tank/mech wrap. Thinking rush with transports. Idea is to present opponents with too many wound targets within 12" hopefully by turn 2.
Green recruits too wet behind the ears to shoot the broadside of an ork anyways. Makes sense they don't consolidate.
AM didn't exactly dominate Cancon or LVOs top tables enough to warrant too many nerfs. Especially not to Infantry squads which are AMs bread and butter (them and tanks)
As with all rumours I'll believe it when I see it.
CaptainO wrote: AM didn't exactly dominate Cancon or LVOs top tables enough to warrant too many nerfs. Especially not to Infantry squads which are AMs bread and butter (them and tanks)
As with all rumours I'll believe it when I see it.
Note that every top imperium list barring one had significant guard presence in LVO. Guard are facilitating pretty much every competitive imperium combo by adding in what every imperial faction lacks. That is to say, at minimum, effective mass of cheap bodies.
Dark reapers (or ynnari) are almost assuredly on the nerf bat as well.
It sucks that these soup armies could cause us yet more nerfs. Especially when considering we've had how many nerfs hit so many of our units and yet we STILL need some things FAQd and rules cleared up!
Well the thing is as long as soup exists and we're the cheapest troops out there we're going to continue to have our points jacked up. I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if IG infantry squads went up to 5pts a model. This won't change until the imperium gets some other cheap source of screening infantry and command points. In order to "fix" the situation you either need to Nerf IG into the ground or completely change how allies work. A lot of the proposed fixes don't even work because people are happy to take IG as the warlord or parent detachment since other codexes use so few spots compared to is.
Granted I'm not super salty if Infantry squads go up to 5 per man, I feel thats a fair price for them, but it does feel like we're being punished for other codexes' actions. And after seeing the thread that shall not be named, I'm pretty sure some folks won't be happy until we have to return to the dark days of 7th where I needed 200 infantry just to survive to turn 3, let alone fight.
It's a rough situation and even if that rumored Nerf happens it will do little to stop the great salt mines. People will just find something else to complain about, like russe's or manticores.
I'm not going to be hurt that much by the 5 pts infantry in my lists, but for all the internet claims about how they're being used, the cheapest per model imperial unit is going to continue to be taken until it is nerfed into not being the cheapest anymore.
They fill a needed role and there's no drawback to taking them. When infantry and conscripts are both 9 points per model, we'll probably start to see something else get spammed. Regardless, something will get spammed because you HAVE to have a screen. All it's doing is changing what is the thing that gets spammed and how much the cost of the unit is. It'll be Scouts or Mechanicus as easily as it'll be infantry if they were just the cheapest thing.
A more reasonable thing to do would be to pull the plug on soup OR un-feth deep strike. Seriously. The only natural conclusion to the game at this point is at least one of the following:
1. Kill soup altogether.
2. If not make deep strike scatter, at least make it a random turn to come on.
3. Make all guard a minimum of 9 points per model.
GW made command points and strategems awesome. If you can't bring these awesome points and strategems, your army is flatly weaker than one who has them. Thus, armies with expensive troops options suck. So everyone allies in cheaper troops or cheaper brigades to make the awesome strategems work. Astra Militarum is just the best thing in the IMPERIUM for getting CP and screens on the board. Every other IMPERIUM list is made better by 210-300 points of guard battalion. If GW wants to somehow balance this, I would lean towards further cost cutting on crappy troops options and inferior HQ choices. The problem isn't just the cheap troops either. Space marine HQs are much more costly than the 30 point company commander.
Actually, I think the 30 point company commander who gives out two orders a turn is actually the real balance problem. He makes all other IMPERIUM HQs look like junk.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Well the thing is as long as soup exists and we're the cheapest troops out there we're going to continue to have our points jacked up. I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if IG infantry squads went up to 5pts a model. This won't change until the imperium gets some other cheap source of screening infantry and command points. In order to "fix" the situation you either need to Nerf IG into the ground or completely change how allies work. A lot of the proposed fixes don't even work because people are happy to take IG as the warlord or parent detachment since other codexes use so few spots compared to is.
Granted I'm not super salty if Infantry squads go up to 5 per man, I feel thats a fair price for them, but it does feel like we're being punished for other codexes' actions. And after seeing the thread that shall not be named, I'm pretty sure some folks won't be happy until we have to return to the dark days of 7th where I needed 200 infantry just to survive to turn 3, let alone fight.
It's a rough situation and even if that rumored Nerf happens it will do little to stop the great salt mines. People will just find something else to complain about, like russe's or manticores.
The problem with nerfing allies doesn't make other codexes more likely to appear, it simply makes it so that people take mono guard instead. Guard is the best single army in the game. If you eliminate allies, or greatly greatly reduce your ability to take them, it just inflates guard's strength. Chaos lives and dies on its army composition, and I don't think Eldar will work half as well without the half and half alaitoc half ynnari force. Guard don't need a smash captain or a bunch of wolf lords surfing thunder wolves to be great, but wolf lords and smash captains sort of do need guard to work.
The problem with nerfing allies doesn't make other codexes more likely to appear, it simply makes it so that people take mono guard instead. Guard is the best single army in the game. If you eliminate allies, or greatly greatly reduce your ability to take them, it just inflates guard's strength. Chaos lives and dies on its army composition, and I don't think Eldar will work half as well without the half and half alaitoc half ynnari force. Guard don't need a smash captain or a bunch of wolf lords surfing thunder wolves to be great, but wolf lords and smash captains sort of do need guard to work.
Doubtful guard would be stomping eldar all that much better if the 1 ynnear dark reaper squad would instead be 3rd or nth alaitoc dark reaper squad.
CaptainO wrote: AM didn't exactly dominate Cancon or LVOs top tables enough to warrant too many nerfs. Especially not to Infantry squads which are AMs bread and butter (them and tanks)
As with all rumours I'll believe it when I see it.
Note that every top imperium list barring one had significant guard presence in LVO. Guard are facilitating pretty much every competitive imperium combo by adding in what every imperial faction lacks. That is to say, at minimum, effective mass of cheap bodies.
Dark reapers (or ynnari) are almost assuredly on the nerf bat as well.
Ya you're right. The majority of top tables were under the banner of Blood angels and Ynnari but it makes sense the blood angels were supplemented by infantry squad bubble wrap. Could some post a link if they know where to find the top army lists from Cancon and LVO please. I think the majority of people here prefer to run (almost) pure AM. If the top armies were Blood angel and AM soup I'd be interested to see how one could change out the blood angel parts with AM equivalents.
One suggestion to combat the soup situation in competitive would be to create Primary and secondary factions and set points limits for each. Maybe a 1600/400 split. The larger faction keyword (Imperium, Chaos, Eldar and...Misc Xenos ) would allow factions to be in the same army while the "smaller" faction keyword would be the one effected by the ratios. It would seem a pity to lose our ability to take assassins and inquisitors. Also the removal of "soup" would be far more damaging to chaos. I'm just spit balling here mind.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Well the thing is as long as soup exists and we're the cheapest troops out there we're going to continue to have our points jacked up. I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if IG infantry squads went up to 5pts a model. This won't change until the imperium gets some other cheap source of screening infantry and command points. In order to "fix" the situation you either need to Nerf IG into the ground or completely change how allies work. A lot of the proposed fixes don't even work because people are happy to take IG as the warlord or parent detachment since other codexes use so few spots compared to is.
Granted I'm not super salty if Infantry squads go up to 5 per man, I feel thats a fair price for them, but it does feel like we're being punished for other codexes' actions. And after seeing the thread that shall not be named, I'm pretty sure some folks won't be happy until we have to return to the dark days of 7th where I needed 200 infantry just to survive to turn 3, let alone fight.
It's a rough situation and even if that rumored Nerf happens it will do little to stop the great salt mines. People will just find something else to complain about, like russe's or manticores.
Sorry to beak it to you but skitarii vanguard are cheaper per unit troops now since chapter approved. (Still wouldn't take them as price isnt the only factor. Also the only reason to take an AM warlord is the grand strategist warlord trait nerf that and you would see fewer AM warlords
CaptainO wrote: AM didn't exactly dominate Cancon or LVOs top tables enough to warrant too many nerfs. Especially not to Infantry squads which are AMs bread and butter (them and tanks)
As with all rumours I'll believe it when I see it.
Note that every top imperium list barring one had significant guard presence in LVO. Guard are facilitating pretty much every competitive imperium combo by adding in what every imperial faction lacks. That is to say, at minimum, effective mass of cheap bodies.
Dark reapers (or ynnari) are almost assuredly on the nerf bat as well.
Ya you're right. The majority of top tables were under the banner of Blood angels and Ynnari but it makes sense the blood angels were supplemented by infantry squad bubble wrap. Could some post a link if they know where to find the top army lists from Cancon and LVO please. I think the majority of people here prefer to run (almost) pure AM. If the top armies were Blood angel and AM soup I'd be interested to see how one could change out the blood angel parts with AM equivalents.
One suggestion to combat the soup situation in competitive would be to create Primary and secondary factions and set points limits for each. Maybe a 1600/400 split. The larger faction keyword (Imperium, Chaos, Eldar and...Misc Xenos ) would allow factions to be in the same army while the "smaller" faction keyword would be the one effected by the ratios. It would seem a pity to lose our ability to take assassins and inquisitors. Also the removal of "soup" would be far more damaging to chaos. I'm just spit balling here mind.
There never going to do that because allies are part of the game.
It happily lets everyone takes guard as an ally
However it denies the weaker choices of Custodes and Ik
I totally get that allies are part of the game. I'm just suggesting an alternative to increasing the points of Infantry squads. Guard has always been about large bodies of men and tanks. An increase in points would change that (all be it slightly) within pure AM armies.
Sorry to beak it to you but skitarii vanguard are cheaper per unit troops now since chapter approved. (Still wouldn't take them as price isnt the only factor. Also the only reason to take an AM warlord is the grand strategist warlord trait nerf that and you would see fewer AM warlords
Not on a per model basis though. People like IG squads because they cover more ground for the points. Vanguard are double the price of a guardsman right now which means that you will have half the bodies to screen with before wargear is even taken into account.
The only reason scouts compete is because they scout and push out deepstrikers, but even then you'll probably still want guardsmen to deal with assault units that just run toward you the old fashioned way.
You cannot balance units in the game currently due to the way armies are constructed. In order to make guardsmen and conscripts less useful in imperial soup they are on the road to making them garbage for an actual guard army. IMHO the easiuest fix to faction mixing abuse is to simply add a rule for matched play that makes a player forfeit ALL stratagems from any faction is their ARMY is not single faction. Suddenly if you want to abuse bubbles and keywords you have to give something else up.
Red Corsair wrote: You cannot balance units in the game currently due to the way armies are constructed. In order to make guardsmen and conscripts less useful in imperial soup they are on the road to making them garbage for an actual guard army. IMHO the easiuest fix to faction mixing abuse is to simply add a rule for matched play that makes a player forfeit ALL stratagems from any faction is their ARMY is not single faction. Suddenly if you want to abuse bubbles and keywords you have to give something else up.
You might not even have to go that far. Limiting the stratagem and relic use to, for example, the Warlord's faction; or a system that decided "main faction" by points as a percentage of the total points and that restricted stratagems - either would work to limit soup abuse. IDK - the allies thing is part of what makes 8th fun, but I agree that the abuses shouldn't be solved by penalizing guard by bumping prices on the standard guardsman.
Has anybody played around with pure infantry lately? I'm thinking about trying it at a 1500 tournament tomorrow. The meta has no shortage of mortal wounds and high powered anti-tank, so I think going all infantry is an interesting skew.
My list:
Cadian battalion
Creed
CC
Ratlings x5
Ratlings x5
4x Infantry with plasma
2x Infantry with las/plas
3x Heavy weapon squads with heavy bolter x2, lascannon
Polonius, I think you need 3 fast attack units and 3 elites to fill out a brigade.
The biggest benefit to tanks that I've found is the ability to shoot the leman russ twice while being mostly immune from small arms fire. However, being able to take more guns for a smaller price probably compensates for this. The hassle of moving more units has its own costs though.
bogalubov wrote: Polonius, I think you need 3 fast attack units and 3 elites to fill out a brigade.
The biggest benefit to tanks that I've found is the ability to shoot the leman russ twice while being mostly immune from small arms fire. However, being able to take more guns for a smaller price probably compensates for this. The hassle of moving more units has its own costs though.
I feel like you have a bit of a missed opportunity with those Scions missing out on the stormtrooper doctrine. I know you're going for pure infantry, and that's basically the only way you can get those heavies, but it seems like a waste.
That being said, I think it's a list that will throw people for a loop, and I'm interested to see how it plays out. I do Mordian, so I typically autoinclude 60 infantry with plasma (and plasma pistol) and it's always worked out well for me. They might not still be standing by the end of the game, but usually neither is the enemy.
I feel like you have a bit of a missed opportunity with those Scions missing out on the stormtrooper doctrine. I know you're going for pure infantry, and that's basically the only way you can get those heavies, but it seems like a waste.
That being said, I think it's a list that will throw people for a loop, and I'm interested to see how it plays out. I do Mordian, so I typically autoinclude 60 infantry with plasma (and plasma pistol) and it's always worked out well for me. They might not still be standing by the end of the game, but usually neither is the enemy.
The Scion trait only works under half range and on 6's. It just doesn't feel impactful enough to me to be worth running them in a separate detachment.
as an aside, guard infantry could just, legitimately, be too cheap at 4 points per model. Guard infantry, regardless of anything else, are actually just really good. They're one of the best troop choices in the game.
I feel like you have a bit of a missed opportunity with those Scions missing out on the stormtrooper doctrine. I know you're going for pure infantry, and that's basically the only way you can get those heavies, but it seems like a waste.
That being said, I think it's a list that will throw people for a loop, and I'm interested to see how it plays out. I do Mordian, so I typically autoinclude 60 infantry with plasma (and plasma pistol) and it's always worked out well for me. They might not still be standing by the end of the game, but usually neither is the enemy.
The Scion trait only works under half range and on 6's. It just doesn't feel impactful enough to me to be worth running them in a separate detachment.
Why wouldnt you run them in another detachment? You lose nothing, and usually gain CP's and firepower for free. It's not like we struggle to fill slots. Besides, those Stormtroopers will often be dropping within half range anyways, and with 4 plasma guns you're guaranteed to get at least one more shot. Taking the trait essentially means you get 5 plasma guns in every squad.
I feel like you have a bit of a missed opportunity with those Scions missing out on the stormtrooper doctrine. I know you're going for pure infantry, and that's basically the only way you can get those heavies, but it seems like a waste.
That being said, I think it's a list that will throw people for a loop, and I'm interested to see how it plays out. I do Mordian, so I typically autoinclude 60 infantry with plasma (and plasma pistol) and it's always worked out well for me. They might not still be standing by the end of the game, but usually neither is the enemy.
The Scion trait only works under half range and on 6's. It just doesn't feel impactful enough to me to be worth running them in a separate detachment.
Why wouldnt you run them in another detachment? You lose nothing, and usually gain CP's and firepower for free. It's not like we struggle to fill slots. Besides, those Stormtroopers will often be dropping within half range anyways, and with 4 plasma guns you're guaranteed to get at least one more shot. Taking the trait essentially means you get 5 plasma guns in every squad.
It's slightly better than one in 6 as well since the rerolled ones get a second chance at triggering a six.
A pure Scion battalion with 3x troops with 2xPG/PP, 2x CCS with 4xPG, and 2x T Primes with Command Rods is 500 points. The only reason I stopped running it was because ITC punishes small low toughness units so much you basically give your opponent 3-6 VP just by dropping them in.
When I ran pure infantry guard, I only used full on mortar heavy weapons squads. Because with no armored vehicles to be shot at, your opponent will simply fire all their lascannons at your heavy weapons squads. Now, it's not that bad considering it takes a minimum of 3 lascannons with decent rolls to do it. But it is a consideration.
I am also interested in running a pure infantry Guard army.
Can you make a decent using using just:
-Company Commanders
-Primaris Psykers
-Command Squads
-Infantry Squads
-Special Weapon Squads
-Heavy Weapon Squads
And what regiment would be the best to run them as?
greatbigtree wrote: I think that Sentinels in cover with something like a Lascannon are gold. Area denial, no decay due to damage, with a threatening weapon that you don't want to ignore, but you also don't want to take shots away from Russes or other tanks. Puts the opponent in a bit of a bind, regarding targeting.
If they get cheaper, and stay just as they are, I'd be tickled pink. I already use them to cheaply fill FA slots. I'd use more than 3, if I owned more.
Why a lascannon though? A scout sentinel with a heavy flamer is 52pts. An armoured sentinel with a plasma cannon is 55pts. For list simplification, they are the best choice, AND a good plasma platform that's cheap is harder to come by now. For 15pts, you get:
1d3 STR7 AP-3 DMG1 36". You won't want to gets hot and kill your models (unless you're cadian and didn't move), but with a full slot you can shoot 3-9 shots of AP-3 every turn. By turn three, you are almost guaranteed to have got your points back on a 3 strong unit, even if all you shot at was space marine scouts!
NH Gunsmith wrote: I am also interested in running a pure infantry Guard army.
Can you make a decent using using just:
-Company Commanders
-Primaris Psykers
-Command Squads
-Infantry Squads
-Special Weapon Squads
-Heavy Weapon Squads
And what regiment would be the best to run them as?
I wouldn't bother with special weapon squads too much, youll have several company command squads running around with banners and you'll want rough riders/Stormtroopers for outflanking and deepstriking, those combined with your infantry squads should cover most special weapons. The rest are absolutely kosher, I use them all heavily in my infantry lists.
As for regiment trait, that really depends.
Cadians are pure firepower, but lack in mobility and leadership. If you were going to go full cadia I would heavily consider Kell to help with leadership and possibly Creed for extra orders/CP's, but he's not as useful as Kell is. Cadians will hit hard but suffer in most tournament minded games thanks to having to move for objectives and having to fall back from turn 1 charges. They hit the hardest, but are easily predicted and very vulnerable to counterplay.
Catachan help you deal with CQC and offer good leadership without any strings attached. Squads want to be near officers anyways so most will be LD8-9 fairly easy with proper banner placement. Harker and Straken both offer serious advantages, and even marbo isnt bad. Catachan powerfist commanders are deceptively powerful for cost as well. Downside is their order and strategem suck for pure infantry. Very solid trait, good for agressive commanders. Possibly look into priests as well.
Valhallan is natural choice for leadership. Their relic makes conscripts useable and their order has utility, but usually works better with an infantry/Russ style list. Where their order shines is against people who attempt to "lock" units in combat by surrounding a model or two to prevent fallback. Your opponent will assume he is safe by wrapping a few conscripts to prevent fallback only for you to fire at them anyways. It's a niche trick, but an important one to know. This is your choice if you want to be able to take a punch. I've been using them a lot lately and their ability to eat hits is disgusting. Very frustrating for opponents if run well. Proper spread of Lord commissars, mk45, and banners make them the hardest to shift regiment in the codex.
Mordians is a solid choice as well. Excellent regiment trait gives better overwatch and improved LD, but they cannot spread out as well to deny charges and deepstrike. Their order is insanely powerful, as is their strategem. In my opinion one of the better regiment traits for pure infantry, but that base to base requirements is a major weakness. They hit insanely hard when led properly but take very careful placement. That sniper order alone ups their firepower considerably and they're one of the best regiments for if you're heavily considering special weapon and vet squads as sniping plasma is disgusting.
A hidden gem in my opinion is actually Armageddon. 18" rapid fire makes your key weapons (plasma/lasgun) far more powerful and gives you more flexibility. Your strategem, order, and relic are kind of pointless but that 18" rapid fire is a big deal. Properly leveraged it could be powerful, but they're one of the only regiments I've not tested so far. I need to see them in practice before I can truly endorse them for infantry.
Vostroyans have interesting applications as well, mainly for 15" rapid fire, their strategem, and to some degree their relic armor for your warlord to turn him into a Terminator. Probably not the best, but worth considering. I feel their trait is better served with other lists, but it's by no means bad, just outshone by regiments like cadia and catachan.
Tallarn are faster, but their outflank strategem is expensive for infantry, their relic and order don't help much, and their regiment trait encourages you to do things you don't typically want to do with infantry. I need to give them a try though, they may surprise me. Their big problem would be firepower, and I feel they would really need tank or stormtrooper support to match the kind of fire a Cadian or Mordian list could put out. Infantry lack firepower typically, and having a trait that hates heavy weapons only exacerbates the problem.
If I had to pick the "best", it'd be tough, and ultimately goes down to what you want to do. I would say cadian is best for firepower, catachans are best at being offensive (aka taking ground) valhallans are best at taking a punch, and mordians are best at dealing with all the turn 1 shenanigans out there that hurt IG. You need to heavily consider your playstyle and play with various regiments to see how they work in practice. Abilities that sound awesome on paper, like mordia's trait, can prove lackluster in reality when you see them in the field. Most of the regiments have weaknesses that only come out in the chaos of a game with a good opponent and you really need to know where your weak points lie.
In addition, and I know I'm going to get some odd looks for this, if you're going pure infantry I would heavily consider Lord commissars for most regiments. They cannot be picked out like command squads can and will often give the same leadership. Lots of people will gun command squads down if given the chance as the flag draws attention. Yes Lord commissars cost twice as much, but can be a decent little counter punch with power axes and mauls. In addition, he doesn't add leadership, he makes it a flat 9, which means you can be more liberal with sergeants as casualties than you could with a squad supported by a standard and he also makes units like mortar squads and SWS's "immune" to morale.
In addition, heavily consider some ogryn bodyguard and ratlings. Ogryn bodyguard keep your key officers alive (aka the grand strategist) can hide officers from line of sight, and hit pretty hard in assault. A couple sprinkled in your line do wonders. Ratings are the cheapest way to push back infiltrators and deepstrikers, and can even potentially chip in mortal wounds. Neither cost much and cover major weaknesses in any infantry list, as well as being fluffy.
Thank you for that information! Very helpful, been considering making an infantry based traitor Guard army since the Renegades and Heretics army just looks awful.
Was thinking of throwing in 3 Leman Russ Annihilators as my heavy support choices in a Brigade just to change it up.
NH Gunsmith wrote: I am also interested in running a pure infantry Guard army.
Can you make a decent using using just:
-Company Commanders
-Primaris Psykers
-Command Squads
-Infantry Squads
-Special Weapon Squads
-Heavy Weapon Squads
And what regiment would be the best to run them as?
Out of interest, is there a reason you don't want to use Scions?
NH Gunsmith wrote: I am also interested in running a pure infantry Guard army.
Can you make a decent using using just:
-Company Commanders
-Primaris Psykers
-Command Squads
-Infantry Squads
-Special Weapon Squads
-Heavy Weapon Squads
And what regiment would be the best to run them as?
Out of interest, is there a reason you don't want to use Scions?
I find them to be great for infantry lists.
Mainly because I was thinking of doing a "traitor" Guard army.
Thank you for that information! Very helpful, been considering making an infantry based traitor Guard army since the Renegades and Heretics army just looks awful.
Was thinking of throwing in 3 Leman Russ Annihilators as my heavy support choices in a Brigade just to change it up.
If tanks are being added give Valhallans a try. Your russe's will take a ton of heat as your only source of armor. Everyone talks big about how the trait is useless with target priority but in practice you'd be surprised how often a tank is left with only a wound or two, especially if you're in any meta that's even remotely casual. Sometimes an opponent is just a wound short and you can pop Jury Rigging to have a Russ hitting on 5's with only 2 wounds, very handy.
Annihilators should be a good choice. I've not tested them personally but they seem solid. If they don't work, use bog standard russe's and theyll never steer you wrong. If you are going solely with russe's as your tanks I'd suggest going all in or not at all. If you insist on 0 Stormtroopers, you could easily put in 5-6 leman russe's, and with a bit of finangling could easily give them their own Spearhead detachment so they'll be objective secured. Since you wont have much deepstriking and outflanking, your russes may become an important source for late game objective grabs if you can keep them alive.
I like Russes best in numbers - 5 or 6 sounds perfect. I also like 'em cheap, often with no sponsons. I think you get the most mileage out of the turret anyway, firing it twice, and I like the saturation that 5-6 chassis brings to the table. One small suggestion - the Conqueror is potentially a huge step up from the standard BC variant provided you're willing to model the coaxial weapon on. That reroll is huge, especially if the tanks are operating alone, or outside the range of an aura buff. Just a thought...
Thank you for that information! Very helpful, been considering making an infantry based traitor Guard army since the Renegades and Heretics army just looks awful.
Was thinking of throwing in 3 Leman Russ Annihilators as my heavy support choices in a Brigade just to change it up.
If tanks are being added give Valhallans a try. Your russe's will take a ton of heat as your only source of armor. Everyone talks big about how the trait is useless with target priority but in practice you'd be surprised how often a tank is left with only a wound or two, especially if you're in any meta that's even remotely casual. Sometimes an opponent is just a wound short and you can pop Jury Rigging to have a Russ hitting on 5's with only 2 wounds, very handy.
Annihilators should be a good choice. I've not tested them personally but they seem solid. If they don't work, use bog standard russe's and theyll never steer you wrong. If you are going solely with russe's as your tanks I'd suggest going all in or not at all. If you insist on 0 Stormtroopers, you could easily put in 5-6 leman russe's, and with a bit of finangling could easily give them their own Spearhead detachment so they'll be objective secured. Since you wont have much deepstriking and outflanking, your russes may become an important source for late game objective grabs if you can keep them alive.
If I did go with "traitor" Scions as Blood Pact, would running say 6 Leman Russ Annihilators as a Tallarn Detachment be a decent idea? I kind of like the idea of being able to move the tanks around without worrying about penalties to hit with the hull Lascannon as well.
Fun little addendum for anyone using ITC missions with infantry. Buy a heavy weapon for each infantry squad, doesn't matter what it is. Makes them 9 model units so they deny The Reaper
NH Gunsmith wrote: That actually isn't a terrible idea now that I think of it. And seems like it can be quite decent.
It's up to you, but I think Scions do solve two issues of Infantry lists: namely Mobility and Firepower.
In terms of Mobility, infantry armies tend to be quite unwieldy and relatively slow (though Tallarn can help to some degree). Now, granted, Scions only have good mobility on the turn they deploy, but that's still enough to get them near an objective or in range of a key target.
In terms of firepower, Infantry Squads have poor BS and few special/heavy weapons. Their firepower is decent relative to their cost, but their aforementioned unwieldiness can make it very hard to concentrate firepower. Again, this is where Scions come in handy as they can land right next to a key target and deliver BS3+ plasma shots (potentially with rerolls from a Prime).
In terms of other units, I enjoy using pseudo-platoons:
1 Company Commander
1 Advance/Screening Infantry Squad w/ Flamer
2-3 Infantry Squads with Plasmaguns and then either a Plasma Pistol (if I want mobility) or a Lascannon/Missile Launcher (for stationary firepower)
1-2 Heavy Weapon Squads (These will usually comprise either 3 Heavy Bolters or a Lascannon and 2 Mortars)
I'll usually have 3-4 of these, depending on the size of game (though I might adjust them a bit to fit into a detachment).
The screening squad goes at the front. Its job is to soak up enemy charges and/or firepower. The other Infantry Squads are meant to do damage. If I'm using Tallarn (or just want mobility), then I'll give them plasmaguns and plasma pistols (the latter to offset the lack of heavy weapon). Otherwise, they get plasmaguns and either lascannons or missile launchers.
The heavy weapons go towards the back. Ideally, they'll start the game in a good position and never move. Generally, if my infantry squads have heavy weapons, I'll just give my heavy weapon squads Heavy Bolters. However, if my infantry squads lack heavy weapons, I'll give my heavy weapon squads Lascannons and mortars (the latter can act as buffer to protect the lascannons).
Depending on circumstances, the company commander can go with either the infantry squads or the heavy weapons.
I'll also use a Primaris Psyker with the Death Mask of Ollanius (currently modelled as an Albino Mandrake) and the aforementioned Scions (generally a Prime with Command Rod and Laurels of Command, a Command Squad with 4 plasmaguns, and a Scion squad with 2 plasmaguns and a plasma pistol), and some Sentinels (since they're the only FA choice I own).
I used to use Astropaths as well, but I don't think they're worth it after the CA price hike.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Fun little addendum for anyone using ITC missions with infantry. Buy a heavy weapon for each infantry squad, doesn't matter what it is. Makes them 9 model units so they deny The Reaper
MrMoustaffa wrote: Fun little addendum for anyone using ITC missions with infantry. Buy a heavy weapon for each infantry squad, doesn't matter what it is. Makes them 9 model units so they deny The Reaper
I would check that with a TO
Would you count the unit before you buy the heavy weapon team or after? Because RAW, that 60mm base counts as one model for everything from morale checks to the priest aura.
Does the codex say that an infantry squad is a sergeant and 9 guardsmen? I get what your trying to do and I have no issue I was more saying that at a table I would be asking for a ruling.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Fun little addendum for anyone using ITC missions with infantry. Buy a heavy weapon for each infantry squad, doesn't matter what it is. Makes them 9 model units so they deny The Reaper
I would check that with a TO
Played at LVO. Can confirm that's how that works. One of the FLG Podcasts right before LVO even directly blessed off on it.
Also, Scions are not great in ITC. Yes, they kill something big and expensive, but you're often dropping a minimum of 3 MSU units into a suicide mission, which makes scoring the EoR more kills primary very difficult in addition to offering up an easy DBTC point and guaranteeing the one kill EoT primary. Possibly also offers an easy headhunter as well. I have a really hard time justifying taking them because they're such huge score pinatas.
greatbigtree wrote: I think that Sentinels in cover with something like a Lascannon are gold. Area denial, no decay due to damage, with a threatening weapon that you don't want to ignore, but you also don't want to take shots away from Russes or other tanks. Puts the opponent in a bit of a bind, regarding targeting.
If they get cheaper, and stay just as they are, I'd be tickled pink. I already use them to cheaply fill FA slots. I'd use more than 3, if I owned more.
Why a lascannon though? A scout sentinel with a heavy flamer is 52pts. An armoured sentinel with a plasma cannon is 55pts. For list simplification, they are the best choice, AND a good plasma platform that's cheap is harder to come by now. For 15pts, you get:
1d3 STR7 AP-3 DMG1 36". You won't want to gets hot and kill your models (unless you're cadian and didn't move), but with a full slot you can shoot 3-9 shots of AP-3 every turn. By turn three, you are almost guaranteed to have got your points back on a 3 strong unit, even if all you shot at was space marine scouts!
For me, I have Plasma out the Wazoo on my Infantry, and I also take it on my Russes because I built them a million years ago. For me, having something to threaten heavy armour at long range is in greater demand. I treat them like a 3-man Tank-Sniping squad. We usually have a fair bit of "olde-schoole" area terrain that's easy for my Sentinels to get cover from. So they park with decent T, W, and Sv, and pound away on tough targets. Vs other Lascannons, they're just as hard to wound as a Russ, with a better save. The only "efficient" way to try to take them out is to divert resources that would be used to kill Russes... A distraction Carnifex of sorts.
So, for me, the Flamer / Plasma is not as useful in my lists. I like using them as a tool to deal with "Heavy" targets. Tank Snipers that can double-duty as a cheap tie-up troop to engage deep strikers.
Ravemastaj wrote: Why a lascannon though? A scout sentinel with a heavy flamer is 52pts. An armoured sentinel with a plasma cannon is 55pts. For list simplification, they are the best choice, AND a good plasma platform that's cheap is harder to come by now. For 15pts, you get:
1d3 STR7 AP-3 DMG1 36". You won't want to gets hot and kill your models (unless you're cadian and didn't move), but with a full slot you can shoot 3-9 shots of AP-3 every turn. By turn three, you are almost guaranteed to have got your points back on a 3 strong unit, even if all you shot at was space marine scouts!
Personally, I quite like the scout move. I also have a ton of plasma elsewhere in my list.
Nevertheless, you make some good points. If I use Armoured Sentinels again, I'll try plasma on them.
Last league game rambling at least for now as league closed in for me(next week is simply last games for those who couldn't play this time). I got to play against space wolves I had played in 2nd round so now with armies twice as big(90PL though point max cap of 2000 pts. Incidentally mine was 1628+power fist). As I had shortage on painted models I was forced to just load up on even MORE tanks so: Pask with plasma's and lascannon, tank commander in punisher, heavy bolter and multi-meltas, 3 leman russ with battle cannons and heavy bolters all the way except for one without sponsons(due to model not having ones! I ran out of sponson russes!). 2 chimera with 1 having double flamers, 3 squads of infantry with autocannon+flamer, 2 special weapon squads(3xflamer, 2xplasma+flamer) and manticore. Oh and company commander with kurov's aquila, grand strategist and power fist I remembered to add to roster as I was pulling out models. Hey I had clearly more than enough points
I might have been able to get some other opponent but he was in 15 minutes before official start time, others weren't and as I had to leave about 2h15minutes or so later to get into train we started game. Scenario was this time sideways long ways with 24" between armies. 4 objectives deployed here and there. Each turn you are there you get point BUT take mortal wound not saved by anything period. d3 if you have more than 10 models or more than 11 wounds if single model. After end game count destroyed PL(half damaged half) and if warlord killed these points are DOUBLED. Then add 10 for each point you have scored from objectives. Well these were max we got for both so 10 for both as we both were able to get stuff into objectives from deployment or turn 1 latest and nobody was able to ever take other off. So basically those were just wound distributers and I had to take brunt due to having to take with tanks few times. Including one that was held all game by my manticore!
Anyway he had warlord and psyker in terminator armours that were held in reserve(and indeed warlord came as late as possible and out of LOS for rather obvious reason due to scenario!!!). We deployed with him not particularly eager to come into combat. Well he had rather shooty wolves. Apart from HQ's he had 2 devastator squad(lascannons and one with missiles and plasma), dreadnought with lascannons, big flier with wolfen, couple grey hunter squads and...yeah I think that's it.
He got deployed first despite me having to start. I had wave of infantry ahead, manticore out of LOS holding objective(and thus taking d3 damage each turn). Most russes were on my left side though punisher was more on right. He started mostly out of LOS behind ruins and flier way out but lascannon squad was in big building on sight. I got first turn despite +1 for him(Rolling 6 helps). So I moved up a bit taking control of objective that was not in my deployment zone and got pask into range of devastator squad. Much like last game game thus started with pask vaporizing that same squad without even leaving anything to do for rest of my army. Well one russ on far left was able to shoot at dreadnought but armour saved. Seeing I had wiped all I could see I claimed objectives, rolled for damage and THEN remembered manticore. Due to time issue I have been running I was rushing. I asked if I could still shoot. He said no. Well fair enough. It would have had no difference if I had remembered since he hadn't even started his turn but fair enough. I simly went to tight RAW play as well which resulted in me playing LOS as written which gave me one time I could shoot from stationary and one time I was able to move just half rather than more than that. In 7th ed LOS rules neither times I could have shoot anything and generally that's how I play but if he wants to play rules tight fair enough. Oh and I kept VERY quiet later when he could have tried longshot charge with 5 wolfen vs my infantry squad when he started out of LOS(so no overwatch). He would have needed like 11" but free no risk and if he gets he could have even consolidiated into Pask if he wipes squad. But if he won't allow me to fire manticore after such a small timing glitch like hell I'm going to give tactical advice like that!).
Anyway his turn he moved fast with flier ahead. Plasma squad emerged into ruins and I cursed for using reroll hit order for pask rather than shoot and smoke. He fired damage to pask and commander taking both to next bracket. That flier is nasty! Compared to poor vendetta that hits on 5+ if it moves this one hits on 3+. Urgh. Psyker came into my right flank spending whole game smiting infantry and giving cover to squads holding objective(2+ save marines aren't nice!). Dreadnought crippled russ that had fired at him leaving at 2 wounds but somehow never died(couple krak missiles were fired in game at it but survived)
Turn 2. Infantry moved ahead. Tanks mainly stood still. Order of turn was GET THAT FLIER DOWN! So basically I fired everything I had at it. Alas I couldn't take it down before manticore which finished it off. Wolfen got out of flier into position where commander couldn't shoot. Particularly own fault as I had positioned chimera sideway to ensure no gaps are where wolfen could charge through toward tank commander but don't think he could have got through terrain, chimera and infantry squad anyway due to 1" requirement. Anyway chimera flamers wounded one and tank commander fired at psychic covered marines. This would repeat basically all game with 2 squads in turn. One did die eventually but 2+ save really neuters that punisher.
His turn 2. Failed to kill pask though got him couple wounds. Wolfen took position behind terrain piece properly(here I stayed VERY quiet about the charge potential).
Turn 3. Pask and couple russ shufled around to get LOS to wolfen and proceeded to pound them down to 1 guy. Think I caused some damage to devastator squad here. I had to take mortal wounds with pask(that 10 PL for win is simply too awesome to not take not to mention I needed to go there just to see the wolfen!). Think Pask was at 2 or 3 wounds by now.
He finished off Pask here I think. Wolfen advanced into forest heading toward crippled russ. Flamer chimera was finished off which exploded and took 3 guys off from BOTH special weapon squads AND infantry squad. Grey hunters finished flamer plasma squad, morale the second. That's about it.
Turn 4. Took out dreadnought by moving 2 intact russ to help crippled one. Tried to remove wolfen but failed. Took out devastators. His turn. As wolfen moved toward rush I quickly checked if I had anything on strategems. Noticed word on defensive gunners. I hit on 5+. I double checked on organizer and yup. My russ that has BS6+ due to damage hits on 5+ on overwatch on this. So when he charged I used it, 2 hits from battle cannon, 1 wound, save failed and 3 damage. 2 saved by special save but as it had wound from before died. Hahahaha! Russ more accurate on overwatch than normally
Turn 5. Here I had dilemma. Manticore was down to 2 wounds. If I stay still I get to shoot on BS6+ and take d3 mortal wounds quite likely dying. But if I move I lose victory point worth 10 PL...Manticore dying is 4 so actually rather easy. Stand and fire! I tried everything I could to get one casualty to the squad over his objective(close to which I had advanced with infantry so if I can remove his squad I break the objective deadlock as we were dead even there!) but not one dead before it came to manticore so while unlikely to do anything I fired(nothing better anyway) and killed 3. Not nearly enough. End of turn I scored point with manticore and it blew. Ah well. He finished off my squad and that's about it for his last turn. We rolled if game ends(3+ continues) and with time issue luckily it didn't.
I had lost pask, half wound tank commander, half wound russ, chimera, manticore, both SWS, 2 infantry squads. He had lost little bith of this and that but enough to give me 6 PL more casualties. Objectives were 10 pts for both so no difference there. I won. Narowly. Had he took out ANY vehicle except for damaged russ(worth 5 pts) he would have drawn or won.
So 5 games. Won twice against same wolf player and once against templars and lost twice against same dark eldar army(first time in rather anti-IG scenario, one time with him simply having pretty darn good army vs me with lots of small units and lots of dark lances that kept hitting, wounding and rolling 5's and 6's for damage and was able to overwhelm me on the fight over objective with too many MSU style for me to keep him out of objective long enough).
Fun league. Not sure if there's new one in any near future so could be this for 40k games for a while.
Weazel wrote: How does one manage anti-tank against -1 hit armies (Alaitoc etc)?
I'm seeing about 2-5 damage on a Fire Prism with 4 LRBTs... not impressed!
Buy better dices? Even with -1 to hit and spirit stone for 6+++ it should cause 7 wounds vs about 10.3 without alaitoc(just battle cannon).
That or deep strike some plasma tossing guys if it doesn't have chaff around. Bye bye -1 to hit.
Well I just did a few passes with dice so it's not a scientific result, but I would hope 4 tanks could pop one tank in a phase... Also vice versa a single Fireprism (okay technically two fireprisms) with Linked Fire did 27 damage to a Leman Russ. Sounds balanced!
People seem dead set that Plasma is good anti-tank but I'm just not buying it. I fail to hit and wound with them and even supercharged you need a significant amount of shots to do any real damage... What's IG's best source of medium-long range D6 damage shooting?
Weazel wrote: How does one manage anti-tank against -1 hit armies (Alaitoc etc)?
I'm seeing about 2-5 damage on a Fire Prism with 4 LRBTs... not impressed!
Buy better dices? Even with -1 to hit and spirit stone for 6+++ it should cause 7 wounds vs about 10.3 without alaitoc(just battle cannon).
That or deep strike some plasma tossing guys if it doesn't have chaff around. Bye bye -1 to hit.
Well I just did a few passes with dice so it's not a scientific result, but I would hope 4 tanks could pop one tank in a phase... Also vice versa a single Fireprism (okay technically two fireprisms) with Linked Fire did 27 damage to a Leman Russ. Sounds balanced!
People seem dead set that Plasma is good anti-tank but I'm just not buying it. I fail to hit and wound with them and even supercharged you need a significant amount of shots to do any real damage... What's IG's best source of medium-long range D6 damage shooting?
It would have taken 2 Fire Prisms, 3 turns of max damage lance shots to do 27 damage to a Russ (saying everything hits and wounds every time).
Alternatively, it'd take 2 turns of max shot, max damage from the str 9 profile to do that many wounds.
On average, it'd take 2 turns for 2 Fire Prisms using Linked Fire to kill 1 Russ.
Likewise, it'd take 2 turns of 8 Battle Cannon shots to kill 1 Fire Prism with Spiritstones. (Well, first turn they'd do 10 out of 12 wounds but... still requires that 2nd turn).
Catachan will also change the figures, likewise Cadian etc etc.
Weazel wrote: How does one manage anti-tank against -1 hit armies (Alaitoc etc)?
I'm seeing about 2-5 damage on a Fire Prism with 4 LRBTs... not impressed!
Buy better dices? Even with -1 to hit and spirit stone for 6+++ it should cause 7 wounds vs about 10.3 without alaitoc(just battle cannon).
That or deep strike some plasma tossing guys if it doesn't have chaff around. Bye bye -1 to hit.
Well I just did a few passes with dice so it's not a scientific result, but I would hope 4 tanks could pop one tank in a phase... Also vice versa a single Fireprism (okay technically two fireprisms) with Linked Fire did 27 damage to a Leman Russ. Sounds balanced!
People seem dead set that Plasma is good anti-tank but I'm just not buying it. I fail to hit and wound with them and even supercharged you need a significant amount of shots to do any real damage... What's IG's best source of medium-long range D6 damage shooting?
Well non-alaitoc prism goes poof in one round with about average results though still fairly often fails(of course sometimes you roll good and don't need 1-2 tanks). But if it's T7, 3+/6++ and say 12W no you wouldn't be getting.
For plasma you obviously have some sort of reroll to hit so that helps. And deep striking plasma is obviously the tempestus so 3+ to hit with reroll 1's. You CAN'T be missing that much with those or indeed time for new dices! And with overcharge plasma hit is actually better than hit from battle cannon. Albeit you get more shots out of battle cannon but again here you would be hitting on 3+ rerolling 1's vs 5+.
Incidentally here thus 4 plasma guns would cause averaging 5.76 damage to said prism. You thus need bit more than 8 plasma gunning scion vs 7 battle cannons to take out one alaitoc fire prism with spirit stone.
Catachan/Cadian are going to help battle cannon a bit though. Plus sponson and hull weapons maybe.
Of course problem with scions will be getting that deep strike. Odds are eldar will bubblewrap so T1 nuke is not likely possible. T2 requires you to clear the chaff first.
Not sure IG has much. Melta sucks. Lascannons and maybe missile launchers but those hit into -1 to hit issue.
Pask btw can be pretty damn good at taking out anything but he's going to be prime target. But with 2d6+2d3 plasma shots hitting on 2+ rerolling 1's...Good luck surviving that.
Weazel wrote: How does one manage anti-tank against -1 hit armies (Alaitoc etc)?
I'm seeing about 2-5 damage on a Fire Prism with 4 LRBTs... not impressed!
Buy better dices? Even with -1 to hit and spirit stone for 6+++ it should cause 7 wounds vs about 10.3 without alaitoc(just battle cannon).
That or deep strike some plasma tossing guys if it doesn't have chaff around. Bye bye -1 to hit.
Well I just did a few passes with dice so it's not a scientific result, but I would hope 4 tanks could pop one tank in a phase... Also vice versa a single Fireprism (okay technically two fireprisms) with Linked Fire did 27 damage to a Leman Russ. Sounds balanced!
People seem dead set that Plasma is good anti-tank but I'm just not buying it. I fail to hit and wound with them and even supercharged you need a significant amount of shots to do any real damage... What's IG's best source of medium-long range D6 damage shooting?
Well non-alaitoc prism goes poof in one round with about average results though still fairly often fails(of course sometimes you roll good and don't need 1-2 tanks). But if it's T7, 3+/6++ and say 12W no you wouldn't be getting.
For plasma you obviously have some sort of reroll to hit so that helps. And deep striking plasma is obviously the tempestus so 3+ to hit with reroll 1's. You CAN'T be missing that much with those or indeed time for new dices! And with overcharge plasma hit is actually better than hit from battle cannon. Albeit you get more shots out of battle cannon but again here you would be hitting on 3+ rerolling 1's vs 5+.
Incidentally here thus 4 plasma guns would cause averaging 5.76 damage to said prism. You thus need bit more than 8 plasma gunning scion vs 7 battle cannons to take out one alaitoc fire prism with spirit stone.
Catachan/Cadian are going to help battle cannon a bit though. Plus sponson and hull weapons maybe.
Of course problem with scions will be getting that deep strike. Odds are eldar will bubblewrap so T1 nuke is not likely possible. T2 requires you to clear the chaff first.
Not sure IG has much. Melta sucks. Lascannons and maybe missile launchers but those hit into -1 to hit issue.
Pask btw can be pretty damn good at taking out anything but he's going to be prime target. But with 2d6+2d3 plasma shots hitting on 2+ rerolling 1's...Good luck surviving that.
Well Pask is on my shopping list anyway, probably gonna magnetize the turret to play around with Punisher and Executioner to see which one is more useful in my lists.
Aynway I'm kinda spoiled from playing SW and having my Long Fangs and Predators doing D6 damage.. of course I can always include them as a Spearhead for AT purposes.
Weazel wrote: How does one manage anti-tank against -1 hit armies (Alaitoc etc)?
I'm seeing about 2-5 damage on a Fire Prism with 4 LRBTs... not impressed!
Buy better dices? Even with -1 to hit and spirit stone for 6+++ it should cause 7 wounds vs about 10.3 without alaitoc(just battle cannon).
That or deep strike some plasma tossing guys if it doesn't have chaff around. Bye bye -1 to hit.
Well I just did a few passes with dice so it's not a scientific result, but I would hope 4 tanks could pop one tank in a phase... Also vice versa a single Fireprism (okay technically two fireprisms) with Linked Fire did 27 damage to a Leman Russ. Sounds balanced!
People seem dead set that Plasma is good anti-tank but I'm just not buying it. I fail to hit and wound with them and even supercharged you need a significant amount of shots to do any real damage... What's IG's best source of medium-long range D6 damage shooting?
Plasma scions do better if you do everything possible to buff them. You want to be in a Tempestus detachment to get their roll sixes again regiment trait, and have a Tempestus commander to give them the order to reroll ones. The commander should also have the Laurels of Command to give them a chance to give the Elimination Protocol Sanctioned order on top of Fire on My Target.
NH Gunsmith wrote: I am also interested in running a pure infantry Guard army.
Can you make a decent using using just:
-Company Commanders
-Primaris Psykers
-Command Squads
-Infantry Squads
-Special Weapon Squads
-Heavy Weapon Squads
And what regiment would be the best to run them as?
I wouldn't bother with special weapon squads too much, youll have several company command squads running around with banners and you'll want rough riders/Stormtroopers for outflanking and deepstriking, those combined with your infantry squads should cover most special weapons. The rest are absolutely kosher, I use them all heavily in my infantry lists.
As for regiment trait, that really depends.
Cadians are pure firepower, but lack in mobility and leadership. If you were going to go full cadia I would heavily consider Kell to help with leadership and possibly Creed for extra orders/CP's, but he's not as useful as Kell is. Cadians will hit hard but suffer in most tournament minded games thanks to having to move for objectives and having to fall back from turn 1 charges. They hit the hardest, but are easily predicted and very vulnerable to counterplay.
I play a 2k Cadian list with a lot of infantry, 2 russ, and 3 basilisks
Superior tactical training + Laurels of Command >>>Creed
Cadians are downright vicious when they get double orders
I'm not sold on Kell. He costs a lot of points and a Commissar tank also does the job well.
All regiments are fast with MMM
Cadians are plasma gods. Overlapping fields of fire will cancel out the deadly -1 to hit and reroll 1s reduces the over charge danger to 1/36.
Short range firepower from Cadian infantry is staggering. The main job of the infantry is to punish advancing units that get too close to the tanks. Cadians are a great army if you can predict an opponent's moves
Curious why you're not sold on Kell, his aura stacks with things like the Commissar tank, he can hide, he has built in CQC weapons, and he gives an extra order. The order alone is worth 15pts and that's before you stack it with Inspired tactics and potentially the cadian warlord trait or laurels of command, plus the fact he's a regimental standard that cannot be picked out as easily, which is 29 points for a squad that isn't a character like he is. By the time you add everything up he's a pretty good bargain, if you consider him a command squad and half an officer alone that accounts for most of his points right there, two things most infantry players run anyways.
I do agree on Creed though. While he's thematic and cool as all get out to run, he is hardly any optimum choice when a generic company commander can be just as good as he is for less than half the cost. The CP's are nice but when do we struggle to get CP?
I wish Kell wasn't Cadian. I mean, yeah, I know he's Cadian and it wouldn't make sense otherwise, but for non-Cadian/Catachan players, there's no special characters to pick from.
Still, it's a minor complaint given the awesomeness of the codex otherwise. I guess there's always room to slap together a small regiment of Cadians led around by Kell or something.
Weazel wrote: How does one manage anti-tank against -1 hit armies (Alaitoc etc)?
I'm seeing about 2-5 damage on a Fire Prism with 4 LRBTs... not impressed!
Vostroyan Leman Russ Annihilator with the +1 hit stratagem.
Can't do that, but a Cadian LRA can use it. Even still, if your enemy brought Alaitoc Hemlocks, you're screwed even with the +1 strat.
I was referring to the Vostroyan stratagem "Firstborn Pride" which confers +1 to hit to a unit. It's not necessarily amazing but 5 x BS4+ (if shot at a -1hit enemy) 54" range Lascannons is decent anti tank, especially with a re-roll of one if you have a tank commander or Yarrik about. It is, off the top of my head, probably Guard's best single unit shooting solution to the specific problem the original post was asking about. Tank commanders with said stratagem would also work, but you can't use the Annihilator then.
So I found a pile of Cadian bits left over from after I sold my Cadians. Like, a surprising number of full models worth. I have a large Mordian army, but I wouldn't mind splashing Cadia just to have something for special characters to do.
I have a 10 man squad, another 6 guys, and a commander with bolter. In addition to Creed/Kell.
Infantry, Special weapon squad, heavy weapons? Thoughts?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I scrounged a couple more miniatures.
I'm thinking the following:
(hq) 2 Company Commanders with bolters
(el) 1 Platoon Commander with bolter
(el) 2 Command squads with lascannons
(el) 1 Command squad with plasma guns (I can put this in a valkyrie or chimera or something)
(tr) 1 Infantry squad with plasma gun
Thoughts? That's a comfortable Vanguard Detachment, and I could put a few vehicles in it that might be more advantageous for Cadian than Mordian.
So I know the more popular loadout for a vulture is twin punisher canons, but has anyone tried the twin hellstrike, twin las canon load out. I ask because it has a decent amount of antitank that hits none fliers on a 3+ as soon as you drop into hover mode first turn. The hellstrike missiles seem like a great choice since somehow they are multiple use and they are basically an ap-2 melta rocket. Seems like an OK way around all the hard to hit crap out there.
I only with a leman russ annihilator could run a tank commander...
Quick question for the group since I can’t find it in another thread: if I take Kurov’s Aquila and my opponent uses Stratagems pre-game (or during deployment), can I roll to farm CP then as well or only after the 1st turn has started?
As long as your warlord is on the battlefield, it works. So not embarked in a vehicle or held in reserve. I'd say no to anything which occurs before deployment. It's iffy if it was intended to work prior to the first battle round. But hey, why should FAQs answer questions when they could just change point values?
Does kurov have to be on the battlefield? Grand strategist specifically states you must be on the battlefield but kurovs acquilla has no such stipulation. It just flat out states anytime an opponent uses a strategem you get a roll, there are no other stipulations written in it's rules.
It makes sense that one would need to be on the table to use a relic but it seems odd the warlord trait specifically states being on the table but the relic does not.
davidgr33n wrote: Just curious, why does he have to be on the battlefield?
The reason I ask is because RAW it does not state it has to be as opposed to the wording of the Grand Strategist Trait. I keep a CO off table for outflanking duty and put the Aquila on him, so I presume (again RAW) that he can be off table and still farm CP when an opponent uses Stratagems before I show up on table....
If anyone can show me differently I’d appreciate the heads up - I don’t want to cheat anyone so clarifications welcome.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Red Corsair wrote: I take it I am in the minority for liking the vulture in 8th
If you go into hover for the 3+ you will get shot down next opponent turn... it’s a lot of points for something you could do more cheaply on the ground.
For you guys running tank companies of russe's, do you have any general advice on how to make a list predominantly made up of tanks? Due to my work schedule being shifted I'm looking at running a tank company for bigger games on weeknights when getting out 150 guardsmen isn't an option.
Ive so far got 6 leman russe's and a manticore as well as 2 chimeras and a taurox. I plan on running 40-60 guardsmen as a screen but the main chunk I'd like to be vehicles to speed up deployment and turns. Other than one tank being permanently glued as an executioner the rest are bog standard russe's that are magnetized pretty handily and I can even make a few of them annihilators alongside the regular Russ variants. I figured I'll want at least one punisher for a proper armored company but other than that wasn't sure what else would work well. Maybe hellhounds And scout sentinels to push back deepstrikers?
Yeah, some screening infantry and scout sentinels seem like a solid idea, Personally, I think if you're spamming Russ variants, and I don't mean that in a bad way, what you're getting the most mileage out of is the bulk high-T chassis and the turret weapons. Sponsons seem like a bit of a trap if you spend too many points on them.
If what you own is standard Russes, you could also consider the Conqueror in some spots. The reroll it gets from the coaxial mount makes it a good choice to operate outside of the range of you tank commanders (if you have any). I'd probably take at least one Punisher as well, because who doesn't like a Gatling Cannon?
Take a careful look at the regimental traits before you decide anything though, as they mitigate for different mixes of weapons. I like Catachan for the standard BC Russ for the reroll on the shots, but that's just me.
MrMoustaffa wrote: For you guys running tank companies of russe's, do you have any general advice on how to make a list predominantly made up of tanks?
It depends a little on what format you are playing in. Scout sentinels are good although they tend to easily give up objectives in maelstrom and ITC. Hellhounds are not bad, the only issue I have been having is that I am normally running a conscript blob at my deployment edge to push back infiltrators in one drop which means I either have to make room for the Hellhounds when I drop the Sentinels or they can only advance behind the infantry. The Hellhound chassis also gives a T7 target for S4 weapon to shoot at more effectively, slightly undermining the T8 wall concept.
Below is an example of something I have been working on. Couple of caveats: some of the points for the Cadian tanks might not be 100% accurate (was making some changes from memory, need to pull the books) and if it is your preference you can drop the 3 Cadian tanks for 3 Basilisk and add another Catachan Conqueror into that detachment. I want to play with the 11 hulls though for a bit to see how I like it.
MrMoustaffa wrote: For you guys running tank companies of russe's, do you have any general advice on how to make a list predominantly made up of tanks? Due to my work schedule being shifted I'm looking at running a tank company for bigger games on weeknights when getting out 150 guardsmen isn't an option.
Standard LRBT is love and life. Executioner is smexy, Punisher is for giving people migraines, and the rest are junk. But we knew this
I have enough manticores to make them count with the cadian stratagem, so i'll get behind them as a concept. I put *them* behind port-a-bastions to truly rustle jimmies.
Wyverns, For all their nerfing and price hikes are *still* viable in a performance list. If you're going up against a ferrari level competition list leave them at home, but for all comers they are still effective.
The Super Heavies are evil, but just the one in a sup com is not completely intractable, and will typically 'screen' your entire army for at least two turns by absorbing the fire of everything on the table, S8+ or not.. The stormlord however is only good if you fill it with ogryns or mortars, which somewhat defeats the purpose you've indicated.
You Will Want Trojans
Screening wise, I personally make extended use of fortifications as blocking LOS tends to be more valuable in the long term than scrub guardsmen, but then my area, and specifically guard players, are mostly tread heads too.
Id like to mention the Annihilator too, 5 LC shots can be pretty useful at times. If you need tank-based AT, the annihilator is always going to be a better choice than the Vanquisher, at least. Decent bang for your buck, too, considering you get 4 shots for the price of two.
Tyr13 wrote: Id like to mention the Annihilator too, 5 LC shots can be pretty useful at times. If you need tank-based AT, the annihilator is always going to be a better choice than the Vanquisher, at least. Decent bang for your buck, too, considering you get 4 shots for the price of two.
I actually prefer to keep the hull LC off the Annihilator. Even with the turret + HB, the thing draws a ton of fire and rarely gets to shoot at full BS for two turns.
Wow thanks for all the quick feedback. I'm using my phone so I'm not going to be able to multi quote but a few follow up questions
The main goal for the tanks is quicker pickup games. It'll probably be a mix of book missions and ITC. I'm not too worried about how many tanks I'll have, but I do find it concerning that tank commanders seem to be heavily punished in most formats. Do you guys leave them at home or run them as barebone russes to lower their target priority? I would like to keep the list somewhat fluffy at least but for ITC especially they give up points like crazy.
@malamis, why Trojans specifically? Wouldn't a techpriest, or at least a mix of tech priests and Trojans work better? Techpriests are cheaper cashwise and can hide.
One issue I have is most of my tanks have hull lascannons glued in. It's kind of forced me down that route whether I like it or not. Sponsors are magnetized and all that, just an issue I have since I have several of the original russe's where all they had for a full weapon was a lascannon.
I have run the annihilator in a couple of test games and really like it. It seems like if mixed properly with regular russe's and executioner's it could be very powerful. What do you think is a good ratio? I don't see ever using more than 1 per every 3 tanks. I haven't decided on a regiment trait specifically but I could see myself doing either tallarn or valhallan, both seem very fun.
I'm not too worried about being able to take on something like what's hitting the top tables at LVO. Most of my meta is pretty casual and has an extremely hard time dealing with my guardsman lists. Half the reason I was taking the tanks was that I hoped it would be less frustrating, especially against newer players. I figure as long as I can build a halfway sound list I will be fine, and Im planning on taking 60 guardsmen or so just to be sure I don't get tabled if the nid and blood angel players show up.
Thanks for again for the advice, I'm looking forward to trying this out soon. :Thumbsup:
MrMoustaffa wrote: For you guys running tank companies of russe's, do you have any general advice on how to make a list predominantly made up of tanks? Due to my work schedule being shifted I'm looking at running a tank company for bigger games on weeknights when getting out 150 guardsmen isn't an option.
Standard LRBT is love and life. Executioner is smexy, Punisher is for giving people migraines, and the rest are junk. But we knew this
I have enough manticores to make them count with the cadian stratagem, so i'll get behind them as a concept. I put *them* behind port-a-bastions to truly rustle jimmies.
Wyverns, For all their nerfing and price hikes are *still* viable in a performance list. If you're going up against a ferrari level competition list leave them at home, but for all comers they are still effective.
I presume problem with demolisher is the extra 18 pts it costs?
And wyvern? Why take wyvern when one could take 9 mortars for the price. 9d6 vs 4d6. Okay okay reroll to wound but doesn't seem worth twice the hits and more spread out rather than one easily taken out model.
How have you guys been finding the Basiliks + Master of Ordance combo? Is the 30pts worth a HQ for Grand Strategist + Re-rolling hit rolls of 1 for the Basiliks?
I have not used Basiliks before and looking to add them into my GSC army. Anyone have any tips on how to screen them and make sure they survive incase I don't get 1st turn?
I run a mostly Sororitas force, but this is a pure AM/MT question so I'll post it here.
I'm running a Battalion of Scions along my Sisters. One Prime hangs out in the back with my Canoness Warlord and nothing but his Kurov's Aquila. The hope is to keep him around all game to maximize the relic as I experiment with spamming CP.
The other Prime drops with all three plasma Scion units. He has a Rod, so I just need one more order... but more properly, I need one more ordered unit, as reliably as possible. Help me compare these options:
Spend 1 CP per turn on Inspired Tactics for as long as there are 3 Scions units... 2-3 turns if I'm lucky.
Spend 2 CP up front on a third relic with Imperial Commander's Armory (I'm already using the 1 CP version of that strategem to get Kurov's Aquila and the Blade of Admonition, 2 more CP gets me a third relic).
If I go with the second strategy, I believe it needs to be the Auto-Reliquary rather than the Laurels because I need a third unit and not just a third order. The 2+ is better than the 4+ too, it just doesn't cascade like Laurels. Have I got that right?
I suppose there's a third option, which is to abandon the Aquila and drop both Primes into harm's way. That saves me the Armory CP and means there's plenty of orders to go around, I just can't generate more CP during the game.
Please let me know if I've missed another option... I really just want to have the orders to secure my supercharged plasma and be swimming in CPs. Thanks!
Take the Laurels of Command, and Spam the 1 CP to give you three orders a turn as long as you're alive. You want maxium return on investment in the shortest possible time.
AdmiralHalsey wrote: Take the Laurels of Command, and Spam the 1 CP to give you three orders a turn as long as you're alive. You want maxium return on investment in the shortest possible time.
I see... that's pricey in terms of CP (3 up front for all the relics + 1 per turn) but definitely punchy. I assume I'd do Take Aim to rerolls 1s, the situationally either Bring it Down or Elimination Protocols for the wound rolls, then maybe a movement order if they keep coming... am I right that Laurels can sometimes go that way?
AdmiralHalsey wrote: Take the Laurels of Command, and Spam the 1 CP to give you three orders a turn as long as you're alive. You want maxium return on investment in the shortest possible time.
I see... that's pricey in terms of CP (3 up front for all the relics + 1 per turn) but definitely punchy. I assume I'd do Take Aim to rerolls 1s, the situationally either Bring it Down or Elimination Protocols for the wound rolls, then maybe a movement order if they keep coming... am I right that Laurels can sometimes go that way?
It only allows one additional order, so it's Take Aim, and then some form of damage re-roll. If you used it to give a movement order they'd then not be able to fire, which is less fun. But Scions are very alphastrikey. Aim to do max damage the second they hit the table, and assume they'll all be dead by next turn. If not, great!
AdmiralHalsey wrote: Take the Laurels of Command, and Spam the 1 CP to give you three orders a turn as long as you're alive. You want maxium return on investment in the shortest possible time.
I see... that's pricey in terms of CP (3 up front for all the relics + 1 per turn) but definitely punchy. I assume I'd do Take Aim to rerolls 1s, the situationally either Bring it Down or Elimination Protocols for the wound rolls, then maybe a movement order if they keep coming... am I right that Laurels can sometimes go that way?
MacPhail, my experience is that small units like that don’t last after they’ve drawn blood... I run Tallarn with Sisters and use the Ambush stratagem to outflank 2 plasma Command squads and a plasma Vet squad. After the opponent retaliates next turn I usually am left with one squad and possibly a small portion of another. So my suggestion- take the Aquila and use CP for the Inspired Tactics- most of the time you’ll only have one or two squads to Order after they’ve alpha struck.
AdmiralHalsey wrote: Take the Laurels of Command, and Spam the 1 CP to give you three orders a turn as long as you're alive. You want maxium return on investment in the shortest possible time.
I see... that's pricey in terms of CP (3 up front for all the relics + 1 per turn) but definitely punchy. I assume I'd do Take Aim to rerolls 1s, the situationally either Bring it Down or Elimination Protocols for the wound rolls, then maybe a movement order if they keep coming... am I right that Laurels can sometimes go that way?
MacPhail, my experience is that small units like that don’t last after they’ve drawn blood... I run Tallarn with Sisters and use the Ambush stratagem to outflank 2 plasma Command squads and a plasma Vet squad. After the opponent retaliates next turn I usually am left with one squad and possibly a small portion of another. So my suggestion- take the Aquila and use CP for the Inspired Tactics- most of the time you’ll only have one or two squads to Order after they’ve alpha struck.
Makes good sense. My experience is about 50/50. When my opponent either knows Scions, watches me reserve my first 5 or 6 drops, or is generally twitchy about getting his back line infiltrated, Scions don't see much beyond turn 2. The rest of the time I either find the perfect drop zone with good cover and range or my opponent is freaking out about Celestine, Seraphim, and melta Dominions and just ignores them to the point they have to hike out on turn 3 to look for targets. I think they're a great match for Sisters that way... there's enough alpha strike elsewhere in the list that they aren't always at the top of it.
I presume problem with demolisher is the extra 18 pts it costs?
And wyvern? Why take wyvern when one could take 9 mortars for the price. 9d6 vs 4d6. Okay okay reroll to wound but doesn't seem worth twice the hits and more spread out rather than one easily taken out model.
And the range, it's never where it needs to be.
As for the wyvern, yeah mortars are better, but he was asking for tanks.
I presume problem with demolisher is the extra 18 pts it costs?
And wyvern? Why take wyvern when one could take 9 mortars for the price. 9d6 vs 4d6. Okay okay reroll to wound but doesn't seem worth twice the hits and more spread out rather than one easily taken out model.
And the range, it's never where it needs to be.
As for the wyvern, yeah mortars are better, but he was asking for tanks.
Range hasn't been issue for me with punishers. With all the T1 assaults, deep strikes and what not 29" threat range is plenty. Not if all you have is that but few tanks will always have something to shoot. And if enemy stays out of 29" range that's good. They are getting bunkered up in one corner basically making hard to contest objectives. Worth it already
Odrankt wrote: How have you guys been finding the Basiliks + Master of Ordance combo? Is the 30pts worth a HQ for Grand Strategist + Re-rolling hit rolls of 1 for the Basiliks?
I have not used Basiliks before and looking to add them into my GSC army. Anyone have any tips on how to screen them and make sure they survive incase I don't get 1st turn?
Cheers everyone.
Basis are great but I run them as catachan with Sgt Harker to give them reroll on number of shots as well as reroll 1s.
In terms of placement with their 120" range and the Master of Ordnance's reroll of 1s only working outside of 36" you'd be mad not to place it in the back corner or your board edge. I think the Master of Ordnance is only worth it if you take 3+ units that will take advantage. I have harker in the back corner with 2 Manticores and a Basi. I then put 2 x 10 man infantry squads 12" around the three artillery pieces giving them a large bubble. You could put the bubble closer (minimum 4" away to prevent the enemy from consolidating in) but I use this artillery and infantry "castle" as area denial. One point to note is I don't have the artillery right against the board edge. I like to give them 6" space behind them and ideally 4" between each piece so that once again the enemy can't consolidate into a second piece. The space behind allows the artillery units to fall back after they are assaulted so they're not trapped in combat.
I try and keep at least one decent cc guy back with the icastle (ideally within heroic intervention range) just to make assaulting the bubble wrap even less enticing. I normally use a beefed up company commander or Ogryn Bodyguard with the death mask but I'm sure you're spoiled for choice with a GSC army
Odrankt wrote: How have you guys been finding the Basiliks + Master of Ordance combo? Is the 30pts worth a HQ for Grand Strategist + Re-rolling hit rolls of 1 for the Basiliks?
I have not used Basiliks before and looking to add them into my GSC army. Anyone have any tips on how to screen them and make sure they survive incase I don't get 1st turn?
Cheers everyone.
Basis are great but I run them as catachan with Sgt Harker to give them reroll on number of shots as well as reroll 1s.
In terms of placement with their 120" range and the Master of Ordnance's reroll of 1s only working outside of 36" you'd be mad not to place it in the back corner or your board edge. I think the Master of Ordnance is only worth it if you take 3+ units that will take advantage. I have harker in the back corner with 2 Manticores and a Basi. I then put 2 x 10 man infantry squads 12" around the three artillery pieces giving them a large bubble. You could put the bubble closer (minimum 4" away to prevent the enemy from consolidating in) but I use this artillery and infantry "castle" as area denial. One point to note is I don't have the artillery right against the board edge. I like to give them 6" space behind them and ideally 4" between each piece so that once again the enemy can't consolidate into a second piece. The space behind allows the artillery units to fall back after they are assaulted so they're not trapped in combat.
I try and keep at least one decent cc guy back with the icastle (ideally within heroic intervention range) just to make assaulting the bubble wrap even less enticing. I normally use a beefed up company commander or Ogryn Bodyguard with the death mask but I'm sure you're spoiled for choice with a GSC army
.
Good idea with the area denial and enemy consolidation. I am tempted to drop the MoO for an Astropath now. Just realised that I am only bringing 1 Basilik so I can just pop the Stratagem to give it re-rolling failed hit rolls. I am also using 2 units of 30 conscripts as my chaff to protect my Tank Commanders, Basilik and Astropath. I hope a wall of 60 dudes is enough to keep my artillery and heavy hitters from being charged and give me good area denial for deepstriking.
Ordana wrote: Why would you ever use conscripts when Infantry squads are the same points and better in every single way.
Valhallan ones can use the mk 45 bolt pistol relic to make them strictly speaking better for pure screening. Thanks to the larger unit size they give you a larger zone of area denial than a mk 45 could with only infantry squads. They also mesh better with aura abilities like a priest.
In addition, if you're an infantry player (as in you use your infantry as more than just a screen and see them as an important part of your firepower) conscripts are more efficient as the first line, allowing your infantry squads equipped with plas/lascannons to not be knocked out by turn 1 alpha charges.
They're a niche unit, but there are legitimate reasons to take them over infantry squads. I think outside of valhallan you're basically just assuming you're burning insane bravery on them every turn. If infantry squads go up to 5ppm then perhaps other regiments will have more reason to run them, but I doubt it.
Because I was going to use Termagaunts as meat shield but they have 6+ saves while conscripts are the same points but have a 5+ save. Infantry are better overall and are the same pts but im purposely using the Scripts as meat shileds and don't expect them to do any damage or shooting. I just want a cheap meat shield. Also, the only way to get Infantry to 10+ modles is to use a Stratgem whiel scripts can go to 30 models per unit.
I am using a unit of Infantry though but they have a Lascannons and will be behind the wall of Scripts and infront of the Astropath.
Also, Astropath can either give the Scripts -1 aura, +1 save or auto pass morale via pysker power which I think is better used on them rather then Infantry Squads.
Good question. I stopped and thought about it a while.
Me: "Why, if I wanted a 3+ save unit with no good delivery mechanism and insufficient attacks to do anything useful with, I'd play space marines. They'd look so much cooler and require less conversion effort! Man, fething GW puts crusaders in the fething codex but doesn't let priests keep their eviscerators? What the feth is up with that! I'm hungry. Wonder if there's anything I could be watching on TV while I paint tonight."
Good question. I stopped and thought about it a while.
Me: "Why, if I wanted a 3+ save unit with no good delivery mechanism and insufficient attacks to do anything useful with, I'd play space marines. They'd look so much cooler and require less conversion effort! Man, fething GW puts crusaders in the fething codex but doesn't let priests keep their eviscerators? What the feth is up with that! I'm hungry. Wonder if there's anything I could be watching on TV while I paint tonight."
No good delivery method? Valkyries and Chimeras aren't good?
How many crusaders? What are you going to actually DO with them?
10 are 150 points. They have 20 attacks total.
If you transport them in a Chimera, you're adding about another 100 points to the price tag. If you're doing a valkyrie, you're doubling their cost. That's getting you up to sternguard levels of cost. What are you hoping to do with them?
For the same points, you could run a command squad with 4 plasma guns, a SWS with 2 plasma guns and a demo charge, and a company commander. Supercharged, that gives you about an 8% worse (because some are BS4+) chance to hit, a 16-33% chance better to wound, and double damage, and that's without orders. You're also not worthless if you fail the charge, which means your transport doesn't need to get you quite as far. You DO have 8 more melee attacks compared to the number of plasma though, so I guess if you're attacking a giant squad of 3+/4+ units, the crusaders might actually be somewhat better, maybe. The acts of faith don't really seem that useful for them. The one that is effective, the opponent can circumvent by just walking out of melee range. Which he's going to do to light you up with small arms fire until you roll 1/2s. And then you have to deal with all the OTHER weaknesses of melee. I won't enumerate those here, but if you search Martel's posts, I'm sure he's covered them all in detail between all of his 10 word posts bemoaning Blood Angels.
I dunno dude, maybe I'm wrong, but it just doesn't seem like the winning strategy. All things considered, I'd rather have Ogryn/Bullgryn.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Well, yeah, you're lucky enough have a bunch of those already. They got expensive and have spent a lot of time sold out.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, this isn't P&M, but I gotta say: I really like the colors.
My first though upon seeing them was what on Earth do these guys offer me over an ogryn bodyguard or a squad of bullgryn? Aside from looking cool I feel I'd rather have the ogryn in pretty much any scenario. Strength and damage tend to matter a lot more in my area than AP for close combat I find, and ogryn mauls do a lot of work.
In addition, if you're an infantry player (as in you use your infantry as more than just a screen and see them as an important part of your firepower) conscripts are more efficient as the first line, allowing your infantry squads equipped with plas/lascannons to not be knocked out by turn 1 alpha charges.
Equal number of infantry troopers without heavy/special would do same job for same price except do it bit better...If you aren't using it with valhallan thing there's no reason.
Just cause you CAN take special/heavy doesn't mean you HAVE to.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Odrankt wrote: Because I was going to use Termagaunts as meat shield but they have 6+ saves while conscripts are the same points but have a 5+ save. Infantry are better overall and are the same pts but im purposely using the Scripts as meat shileds and don't expect them to do any damage or shooting. I just want a cheap meat shield. Also, the only way to get Infantry to 10+ modles is to use a Stratgem whiel scripts can go to 30 models per unit.
I am using a unit of Infantry though but they have a Lascannons and will be behind the wall of Scripts and infront of the Astropath.
Also, Astropath can either give the Scripts -1 aura, +1 save or auto pass morale via pysker power which I think is better used on them rather then Infantry Squads.
3x10 > 1x30 so not sure why you are too stressed about that. With 3x10 you screen better and lose less to morale so it's cheaper for you as well. One guy can't tag whole squad into combat. Etc etc etc.
3x10 > 1x30 so not sure why you are too stressed about that. With 3x10 you screen better and lose less to morale so it's cheaper for you as well. One guy can't tag whole squad into combat. Etc etc etc.
I just want a good screening unit tbh. The reason I like the 30 models of scripts is because if I am using an Astropath it's better to buff them with a pysker power then a unit of Infantry men. I guess I could try out both situations in a game or 2 over the next few days.
The only issue I see is in my Meta we usually play games where you get extra points for killing full squads. That means 3 units of 10 guys could actually cost me the game if my opponent focuses on them 1st. While a blob of 30 guys will give them less points for the same concentrated fire power making the unit of scripts somewhat better for those situations.
3x10 > 1x30 so not sure why you are too stressed about that. With 3x10 you screen better and lose less to morale so it's cheaper for you as well. One guy can't tag whole squad into combat. Etc etc etc.
I just want a good screening unit tbh. The reason I like the 30 models of scripts is because if I am using an Astropath it's better to buff them with a pysker power then a unit of Infantry men. I guess I could try out both situations in a game or 2 over the next few days.
The only issue I see is in my Meta we usually play games where you get extra points for killing full squads. That means 3 units of 10 guys could actually cost me the game if my opponent focuses on them 1st. While a blob of 30 guys will give them less points for the same concentrated fire power making the unit of scripts somewhat better for those situations.
I see your reason for desiring a large blob unit, the question is, is it worth the nerfs of WS5 / BS5 / LD5 / receiving orders only half the time and If they don’t accept an order they can’t be given any more / no special or heavy weapons....?
I don’t know, it’s just a lot to give up don’t you think? If your Psyker dies or doesn’t get off his power someone could take advantage of that to delete that unit just by killing off half of it (the other half dying to morale). Tough way to lose 120 pts.
Red Corsair wrote: I take it I am in the minority for liking the vulture in 8th
If you go into hover for the 3+ you will get shot down next opponent turn... it’s a lot of points for something you could do more cheaply on the ground.
Not really buying that. -1 to hit is not that major a factor especially when I get to shoot first before losing said trait. I also don't really see anything on the ground dishing out two las canon and two melta missile shots hitting on a 3+ with 14 t7 wounds for it's cost. Since when is saying your opponent will kill it really argument? Of course my opponent will shoot it down given the chance. I think it is more durable then your giving it credit, a leman russ tank commander is about the next best thing in regard to high BS long range AT and although it has +1 toughness it lacks two wounds and has no hit penalty if I go second. The toughness differential in my experience is less of an issue in 8th since most people are using strength 9+ for long ranged AT anyway. A tank commander also costs substantially more when fitted for the same roll and has more issues with range and LOS.
EDIT: BTW the increased BS is important to me as a result of playing so many damned -1 to hit armies. Eldar currently shut down our artillery almost entirely by simply using alaitoc and conceal. It's a big issue when you need to crack open that key wave serpent. Next best solution is to valk in command squads which costs substatially more and is easily counter deployed.
Red Corsair wrote: I take it I am in the minority for liking the vulture in 8th
If you go into hover for the 3+ you will get shot down next opponent turn... it’s a lot of points for something you could do more cheaply on the ground.
Not really buying that. -1 to hit is not that major a factor especially when I get to shoot first before losing said trait. I also don't really see anything on the ground dishing out two las canon and two melta missile shots hitting on a 3+ with 14 t7 wounds for it's cost. Since when is saying your opponent will kill it really argument? Of course my opponent will shoot it down given the chance. I think it is more durable then your giving it credit, a leman russ tank commander is about the next best thing in regard to high BS long range AT and although it has +1 toughness it lacks two wounds and has no hit penalty if I go second. The toughness differential in my experience is less of an issue in 8th since most people are using strength 9+ for long ranged AT anyway. A tank commander also costs substantially more when fitted for the same roll and has more issues with range and LOS.
EDIT: BTW the increased BS is important to me as a result of playing so many damned -1 to hit armies. Eldar currently shut down our artillery almost entirely by simply using alaitoc and conceal. It's a big issue when you need to crack open that key wave serpent. Next best solution is to valk in command squads which costs substatially more and is easily counter deployed.
Would you say officers of the fleet help you in any way. I have a friend who runs elysians and is really struggling to get his Vultures to work. He's running them with the multiple rocket pods though so maybe that's part of his issue as well.
Hi there, proud commanders of our beloved emperor!
So, how do you ussually deal with minus to hit modifiers? I have read about some possibilities, but I dont think they really work.
1) Someone recommended to use scions with plasma to negate Alaitoc automatic minus to hit modifier through short distance fire. However, Scions are only there for that one punch when they come...and the turn they show up and try to shoot a vehicle, the eldar player will promptly use his -1 to hit stratagem and your scions will burn themselves...and probably not manage to kill the vehicle...which is quite a problem because they cost a LOT more than a fire prism of serpent.
2) Another recommendation was Pask. There is yet to be a game where my Pask survives to my turn 2.
3) Overlapping fields of fire stratagem...well, it helps. However you have to wound the enemy unit to use it so if your enemy see you are preparing to concentrate fire to his unit, he again uses his -1 to hit stratagem...making his unit -2 to hit...
4) There are units that automatically have another minus to hit modifier (rangers, serpent, hemlock)...how can you even hurt them? With -2 to hit automatically and -3 to hit with stratagem or eldar spell, you have no chance to hurt those pointy eared bastards!
Do you have experience playing against these armies?
I have a couple hellhounds I normally bring that help out with that kind of stuff. Otherwise I ignore them as much as possible. If it feels like it's something I could get close enough to, I'll assault it.
Hellhounds are nice, but they are rubbish anti tank and can't do it all. Best solution I have used so far are cyclops run in tandem with hellhounds. Bascally the hellhounds block line of sight to the cyclops which advances to keep up. Hopefully turn 2 you can drive up and auto hit the trouble units. That strategy became costly with the errata to cost however.
Modifiers to hit are really starting to make the game stale. Essentially artillery is worthless.
My best units are assault which is hilariously awesome. I always leave home with at least 5 bulgryn and lately I have been inclined to increase the assault element from Valkyries. I run catachan, so I know this doesn't help everyone, but fill your birds with platoon commanders with power fists and plasma pistols and gear up for punching elves. This at least helps verse their infantry and to some degree tanks, but popping serpents and fliers is still a massive issue.
Red Corsair wrote: I take it I am in the minority for liking the vulture in 8th
If you go into hover for the 3+ you will get shot down next opponent turn... it’s a lot of points for something you could do more cheaply on the ground.
Not really buying that. -1 to hit is not that major a factor especially when I get to shoot first before losing said trait. I also don't really see anything on the ground dishing out two las canon and two melta missile shots hitting on a 3+ with 14 t7 wounds for it's cost. Since when is saying your opponent will kill it really argument? Of course my opponent will shoot it down given the chance. I think it is more durable then your giving it credit, a leman russ tank commander is about the next best thing in regard to high BS long range AT and although it has +1 toughness it lacks two wounds and has no hit penalty if I go second. The toughness differential in my experience is less of an issue in 8th since most people are using strength 9+ for long ranged AT anyway. A tank commander also costs substantially more when fitted for the same roll and has more issues with range and LOS.
EDIT: BTW the increased BS is important to me as a result of playing so many damned -1 to hit armies. Eldar currently shut down our artillery almost entirely by simply using alaitoc and conceal. It's a big issue when you need to crack open that key wave serpent. Next best solution is to valk in command squads which costs substatially more and is easily counter deployed.
Would you say officers of the fleet help you in any way. I have a friend who runs elysians and is really struggling to get his Vultures to work. He's running them with the multiple rocket pods though so maybe that's part of his issue as well.
Not sure about the OoF, I'll give it a shot though, but in regard to taking a vulture with MRP, I think thats kind of the issue he may be having. It just isn't worth taking if your gonna arm it like a valkyrie. Your basically just taking a valkyrie with no transport space. Against eldar maybe the AT vulture isn't the best since it only gains a bonus vs none fly units, but this thing helps a lot vs Bugs and hard to hit admech and marines.
MrMoustaffa wrote: He's running them with the multiple rocket pods though so maybe that's part of his issue as well.
This is the problem: 4d6 shots vs. 40 shots. There is no situation where the AP -1 of the rocket pods makes up for the sheer difference in volume of fire, and the fact that the rocket pods cost more than the punisher cannons is just insult to injury. Vultures with rocket pods are never going to be an effective choice regardless of hit modifiers.
There was a post on here a while back questioning how well custodes could compliment AM, Particularly the Vexilla defensor (this name might not be exact). Its a banner that gives fully covered units within 9" a 5++ save and allow all units within 6" to reroll leadership. Basically a better Ork Kustom Forcefield combined with a commisar who doesn't kill his own dudes.
If I run this vexilla chap with my normal catachan blob the 40+ catachan will
Be S4
Have 3 attacks (1 +1 for straken +1 for my priest)
Have leadership 8 rerollable
Have a 5++ save
In a 2000pt army I can bring my catachan brigade (roughly 1000pts) and a Custodes Vanguard detachment (the other 1000.... I never said they were cheap)
The vexilla creates an infantry deathstar that will be hard to shift,Harker castles up with 2 manticores and a basi and the remaining custodes consists of a shield captain (deep striking) another Vexilus in terminator armour (deep striking) and 8 wardens (who can deepstrike 3" away from the enemy with some CP shenanigans)
The wardens when properly buffed have 5 to 6 s8 ap-3 attacks each. Hitting on 2+ with a reroll.... Dudes are ridiculous.
It looks fun but the only problem I have is the custodes, they really don't compliment us that well since they are so expensive, I get why a custode would want guard infantry to gain CP's and cheap screens/campers but if guard is your primary (50%+ of your points) your generally not gona get enough custodes to handle certain issues. Best thing we could port in are the bike shield captains and they seem good on paper until you realize they still go down easily to mortal wounds and have next to zero psychic defense.
I may like the vexillia, but how much is he? Because if he costs as much as 30 or 40 more guardsmen I don't think he's bringing much that those guardsmen wouldn't already do better. Your not getting that many dudes under the invuln blanket without deploying terribly lopsided.
MrMoustaffa wrote: He's running them with the multiple rocket pods though so maybe that's part of his issue as well.
This is the problem: 4d6 shots vs. 40 shots. There is no situation where the AP -1 of the rocket pods makes up for the sheer difference in volume of fire, and the fact that the rocket pods cost more than the punisher cannons is just insult to injury. Vultures with rocket pods are never going to be an effective choice regardless of hit modifiers.
According to him the twin punisher loadout was hideously expensive and it couldn't hit the broadside of a barn with other weapons due to it losing some sort of special rule. He claimed it was normally hitting on 5's I think.
I'm starting to wonder if he has outdated rules or something.
CaptainO wrote: There was a post on here a while back questioning how well custodes could compliment AM, Particularly the Vexilla defensor (this name might not be exact). Its a banner that gives fully covered units within 9" a 5++ save and allow all units within 6" to reroll leadership. Basically a better Ork Kustom Forcefield combined with a commisar who doesn't kill his own dudes.
I'm not up on Custodes presently, but is there anything stopping you taking a Supcom and one of them instead of going all in? If all you want is the vexilla then surely there's no need to make a full detachment of them if you're taking 1-3 primaris psykers.
MrMoustaffa wrote: He's running them with the multiple rocket pods though so maybe that's part of his issue as well.
This is the problem: 4d6 shots vs. 40 shots. There is no situation where the AP -1 of the rocket pods makes up for the sheer difference in volume of fire, and the fact that the rocket pods cost more than the punisher cannons is just insult to injury. Vultures with rocket pods are never going to be an effective choice regardless of hit modifiers.
According to him the twin punisher loadout was hideously expensive and it couldn't hit the broadside of a barn with other weapons due to it losing some sort of special rule. He claimed it was normally hitting on 5's I think.
I'm starting to wonder if he has outdated rules or something.
Yeah, it sounds like your friend is missing some rules there. Both the rocket pods and punisher cannons are heavy weapons (so hit at the same BS), and the rocket pods are more expensive.
MRP and the punisher load out are not really worth it IMHO. Loads of s5 with no AP isn't all that effective. For some reason though we can shoot to hellstrike missiles per turn and the twin las canons. It effectively gives guard a predator annialitor at around the same cost, hitting ground targets just as well but with 3 more wounds and a -1 to hit turn 1 and pretty free reign on visibility to enemy models you want it to shoot thanks to it's model. The missiles are nasty since they are basically vanquisher rounds. I hear one other person claim there was better AT available on the ground for cheaper but I am still waiting to here what it is.
Ice_can wrote: Also I would double check that its only within and not wholly within 6 as good luck getting 40 dudes in that space
The Defensor, is "Wholly within" and is a 9" bubble - so effectively an 18" circle.
As for points, if you go normal and not termi armour, i believe it's 114 points (with an axe)
He's a total trap then. You could simply buy 30 more guardsmen which is WAY more then he is ever going to save in a game, especially since his banners wording also makes him force you into poor deployment. Infantry should be using Move move move turn 1 to cover the table and deny DS, and prior to turn 1 should be screening your entire line, this means your not going to get full squads under that thing and if you do you are going to need more squads for that initial job. He just doesn't seem worth it to me, he seems better in a marine list where they can give hellblasters or inceptors an invuln save similar to Azreal if you are not playing dark angels, In other words he sounds like he is best suited at buffing elite units, our elite unit (bulgryn) gain nothing from him.
I can see it being useful with Mordians, since they want to be base to base anyway to make use of their overwatch buff. IF you have firebase units under the 5+, and less expensive squads out with the MMM denying board space it sounds like it would work. Or with as firebase of Scion squads, same concept. Heck, even on a Valhallan conscript screen. Anything the opponent is going to be motivated to shoot first and that will be more survivable with the 5++ is potentially a good target.
That said, the point above about elite infantry is well taken. Squads like Hellblasters are a pretty ideal target.
Red Corsair wrote: It looks fun but the only problem I have is the custodes, they really don't compliment us that well since they are so expensive, I get why a custode would want guard infantry to gain CP's and cheap screens/campers but if guard is your primary (50%+ of your points) your generally not gona get enough custodes to handle certain issues. Best thing we could port in are the bike shield captains and they seem good on paper until you realize they still go down easily to mortal wounds and have next to zero psychic defense.
I may like the vexillia, but how much is he? Because if he costs as much as 30 or 40 more guardsmen I don't think he's bringing much that those guardsmen wouldn't already do better. Your not getting that many dudes under the invuln blanket without deploying terribly lopsided.
You can get the Vexilla Defensor dude down to 104points. The range is 9" radius. Its exactly the same rules as the Ork KFF (whole units only) but it also allows "units within" 6" to reroll leadership. Pretty awesome combined with the catachans ld 8 when near an officer.
The other 900ish points would be spent on 8 custodes wardens buffed by the vexilla that give plus 1 attack and a shield captain so they reroll all 1s to hit(they hit on 2s normally) The 2 stratagem that allows them to deepstrike as close as 3" to an enemy combined with the 6 x s8 ap -3 attacks each.... They could destroy a baneblade in one round of cc with attacks to spare.
I've painted my catachan brigade (80 models) and thats only 1000ish points. The fact 1000 point of costodes is 11 models that would require painting is just an added bonus.
I'd have an AM company commander with the Aquilla and grand stratagist to farm CP points. The custodes stratagems are some of the best I've seen but boy are they pricey...
Regarding the Vulture, am I correct in my understanding that, if it is taken in an Elysian regiment detachment, it becomes an <Elysian> unit and thus gains their Deep Strike ability as per the FWFAQ? If so that makes it an excellent unit, (immune to alpha strikes) with either the Punishers or the Las/Missile loadout.
Otto von Bludd wrote: Regarding the Vulture, am I correct in my understanding that, if it is taken in an Elysian regiment detachment, it becomes an <Elysian> unit and thus gains their Deep Strike ability as per the FWFAQ? If so that makes it an excellent unit, (immune to alpha strikes) with either the Punishers or the Las/Missile loadout.
Far as I know aeronautical units do not get regiment traits
Otto von Bludd wrote: Regarding the Vulture, am I correct in my understanding that, if it is taken in an Elysian regiment detachment, it becomes an <Elysian> unit and thus gains their Deep Strike ability as per the FWFAQ? If so that makes it an excellent unit, (immune to alpha strikes) with either the Punishers or the Las/Missile loadout.
Correct. The Vulture replaces all instances of AERONAUTICA IMPERIALIS with ELYSIAN DROP TROOPS, and all models with ELYSIAN DROP TROOPS have the deep strike ability.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MrMoustaffa wrote: Far as I know aeronautical units do not get regiment traits
This is an explicitly stated exception to the rule.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Polonius wrote: There is no change in the FAQs to make Index MRPs assault, so RAW they're still heavy.
Correct. Even as assault weapons they're still trash though. Consider the ideal case for the rocket pods: moving and shooting at a target with FLY (so BS 4+ vs 5+, maximizing the difference) with a 2+ armor save (maximizing the value of AP -1). The rocket pods are averaging 14 shots on 4D6. They get 50% more damage from the BS improvement, up to 21. They get double the damage from AP -1, up to 42 effective shots. So, in an extreme edge case situation the rocket pods beat the punisher cannons by a very slight margin, at a slightly higher point cost. In any other situation the sheer volume of fire from the punisher cannons beats the rocket pods per-shot advantages.
Not to mention you get the same firepower on valkyries for cheaper only you can freight dudes up the board as well. MRP just are not worth it on the vulture. The more I crunch it, it really is best suited for AT. Punishers are fun but really don't do crap since they have no AP.
Red Corsair wrote: Not to mention you get the same firepower on valkyries for cheaper only you can freight dudes up the board as well. MRP just are not worth it on the vulture. The more I crunch it, it really is best suited for AT. Punishers are fun but really don't do crap since they have no AP.
I haven't run my Vulture yet in 8th but the AT loadout does seem like it might be, as was mentioned earlier, the best single AT model we have access to. I'm going to have to try an Elysian Vulture with Las/Missiles dropping into casting range of Nightshroud. Its closest competitor would be the LR Annihilator which may be slightly superior actually, I'm not sure. Elysian Vultures are immune to alpha strikes though, which is a big advantage. Being able to drop into hover mode to hit on 3s is also nice.
Otto von Bludd wrote: I haven't run my Vulture yet in 8th but the AT loadout does seem like it might be, as was mentioned earlier, the best single AT model we have access to.
I'm not sold at all, not when the Avenger exists. For ~15 points more you get the same twin lascannon + twin hellstrikes, plus the avenger bolt cannon. The only advantage the Vulture has is the ability to hover and trade its -1 to hit for BS 3+ against some targets. If you ever want to move they're both hitting on the same 4+. And if you're just going to sit in the corner like a fixed turret emplacement then why not take a LRBT of some type?
on the other FW Flyers, is the Thunderbolt Fighter and especially the Marauder Destroyer any good? I have both, and the Marauder Destroyer looks awesome, but I am having a heart attack every time I pay more for it than a Baneblade (540 points puts it even with a max-everything-but-pintle Shadowsword) for fewer wounds and a lower toughness. Its weapon loadout does seem very good, however, and the -1 to-hit in shooting against it also may offset the toughness difference more than I am giving credit for. Any thoughts?
Knight-Commander Pask: In an absolute vacuum and bubble, would you take the Punisher or the Executioner?
Furthermore, which aspects of the rest of your list or your local meta would make you choose one over the other?
The thing is I made a noob mistake while theoryhammering. Because of my SM background I assumed the punisher was S6 ap-1 (pro tip: it's not), leading me to decide it was superior to the executioner and I glued it together. I was about to magnetize the cannon but I was pressed for time and decided to forgo magnetizing. Not sure if I can dismantle it anymore though. Anyway, kinda looking for some reassurance that the punisher is a good loadout or else I start taking it apart...
Weazel wrote: Knight-Commander Pask: In an absolute vacuum and bubble, would you take the Punisher or the Executioner?
Furthermore, which aspects of the rest of your list or your local meta would make you choose one over the other?
The thing is I made a noob mistake while theoryhammering. Because of my SM background I assumed the punisher was S6 ap-1 (pro tip: it's not), leading me to decide it was superior to the executioner and I glued it together. I was about to magnetize the cannon but I was pressed for time and decided to forgo magnetizing. Not sure if I can dismantle it anymore though. Anyway, kinda looking for some reassurance that the punisher is a good loadout or else I start taking it apart...
The Punisher is fine, especially if Pask gives himeself the re-roll 1's order or remains stationary. The only "bad" Russes (though they are pretty bad) are the Exterminator, Vanquisher, and Eradicator, I suspect.
Just started with stuff I know gets repeated a lot, and I know Scion questions get asked all the time, so I thought it might be easier to just pass a link around rather than repeat the same things over and over again.
Weazel wrote: Knight-Commander Pask: In an absolute vacuum and bubble, would you take the Punisher or the Executioner?
Furthermore, which aspects of the rest of your list or your local meta would make you choose one over the other?
The thing is I made a noob mistake while theoryhammering. Because of my SM background I assumed the punisher was S6 ap-1 (pro tip: it's not), leading me to decide it was superior to the executioner and I glued it together. I was about to magnetize the cannon but I was pressed for time and decided to forgo magnetizing. Not sure if I can dismantle it anymore though. Anyway, kinda looking for some reassurance that the punisher is a good loadout or else I start taking it apart...
Executioner's are absolutely disgusting even at bs4, I can't imagine one at bs2 rerolling ones
Absolutely give it a try. It will only fire once, because once that sucker nukes your opponents biggest unit they will do everything in their power to kill it. I am consistently told it is my opponent's most hated model.
Weazel wrote: Knight-Commander Pask: In an absolute vacuum and bubble, would you take the Punisher or the Executioner?
Furthermore, which aspects of the rest of your list or your local meta would make you choose one over the other?
The thing is I made a noob mistake while theoryhammering. Because of my SM background I assumed the punisher was S6 ap-1 (pro tip: it's not), leading me to decide it was superior to the executioner and I glued it together. I was about to magnetize the cannon but I was pressed for time and decided to forgo magnetizing. Not sure if I can dismantle it anymore though. Anyway, kinda looking for some reassurance that the punisher is a good loadout or else I start taking it apart...
Executioner's are absolutely disgusting even at bs4, I can't imagine one at bs2 rerolling ones
Absolutely give it a try. It will only fire once, because once that sucker nukes your opponents biggest unit they will do everything in their power to kill it. I am consistently told it is my opponent's most hated model.
Pask in executioner has been one of the top units I have used. It's just sickening firepower. Thank game balance it's 0-1(feels like GW has applied stupid max 1 option discounts with him). Only issue with him is that a) he's prime target so guess which tank is targeted first b) as you have only 1 max in bigger games it won't generally get to shoot more than once(in smaller games he's even more awesome as much more likely to get 2-3 turns of shooting). But you are basically quaranteed to get one unit from enemy vaporized unless it has good inv save, high T and tons of wounds in it. And even those takes a good dent.
With plasma benefitting from reroll's more than non-plasma the executioner feels playing to his strenghts more than other variants.
I have been looking at different ways to get cheap yet reliable chaff/screen units to protect my big guys so I was Comparing Infantry Squads with GSC Neophytes Hybrids and realised the Neos are actually somewhat better then Infantry men.
They can be taken in units of 20, giving them a heavy weapon is only 5pts dearer then giving an infantry squad a heavy weapon, while they cost 1pt extra per model that 1 point let's you cult ambush and the ability to bring more models in a unit, can swap out your Lasguns for shotguns on all your units, don't need to spend CPs to make this unit get bigger e.g. merging 2 infantry squads to become one.
If infantry squads are getting boosted from 4ppm to 5ppm and if they become the same price as Neophytes then "we" might as well that using them seeing as we can get extra rules and abilities for the same price.
Odrankt wrote: I have been looking at different ways to get cheap yet reliable chaff/screen units to protect my big guys so I was Comparing Infantry Squads with GSC Neophytes Hybrids and realised the Neos are actually somewhat better then Infantry men.
They can be taken in units of 20, giving them a heavy weapon is only 5pts dearer then giving an infantry squad a heavy weapon, while they cost 1pt extra per model that 1 point let's you cult ambush and the ability to bring more models in a unit, can swap out your Lasguns for shotguns on all your units, don't need to spend CPs to make this unit get bigger e.g. merging 2 infantry squads to become one.
If infantry squads are getting boosted from 4ppm to 5ppm and if they become the same price as Neophytes then "we" might as well that using them seeing as we can get extra rules and abilities for the same price.
Thoughts?
I play GSC w AM as "allies", and I would not reccomend Neophytes. Among GSC players AM infantry is generally considered better than Neophytes. Orders are the main selling point. The points cost is mostly annoying.
Biggest drawback for an AM-player is that you must use the regiment Brood Brothers on all detachments to ally with GSC. And they don't have any regimental rules yet, so no doctrines etc... Also, you need at least as many GSC detachments as AM detachments.
In addition:
Max unit size doesn't help that much, because of morale. (for scenarios at 500-1000p it can be slightly useful)
Cult ambush is fun, but very unreliable unless you invest a primus and/or a stratageme into it. And in a GSC detachment there are many other things that does ambush much better (stealers, acolytes, aberrants).
That said, if you want to run neophytes, here are some common advice.
Double mining weapons are generally better than heavy weapon teams.
Double grenade launcher mixes well with autoguns/lasguns.
Double flamer and a power maul mixes well with shotguns.
Best flexibility and value for your points are probably units without upgrades.
My suggestion would be to revisit this idea after the GSC codex is released. Right now you are better off without Neophytes.
Thanks for the input Mellon. However, I always run my AM with GSC so I actually never use <regiments> so losing that isn't an issue as I am used to it by this stage. I have also never used Infantry squads nor used orders on any AM infantry unit either. I am definitely missing out on something but I like running my AM with GSC. I also bring a Mixture of GSC/AM/Nid Detachments so I usually only have one detachment per "ally" as well because my Meta doesn't allow the use of same Detachments e.g. GSC Battalion, AM Patrol, Nids Spearhead.
I am also running my Neos in 3 units of 15 so I am not that worried with losing models to morale. I am using the Neos to create 3 waves of anti-deepstrking area and as Chaff for my Russ's, Basiliks, Hive Tyrant and Biovores. If they can do that for the 1st 3 turns then I would consider that a good investment. I do agree with GSC having better units to Cult Ambush. I actually don't plan on cult ambushing my Neos because of my above idea. I do have a Primus but he will be Ambushing in my 2 Genestealers units in 2 different turns because it is one of the better "Ambush" teams (as you stated).
In terms of upgrades. I am running them all basic. I'm not giving them any heavy weapons as I do expect them do die in the 1st few turns.
I could show you my list as I have a game with Tzeentch today but I don't want to post a GSC soup list in an AM thread seeing as they are "different" armies.
I thought you were a mostly AM-player that was looking into GSC neophytes out of curiosity. Sorry for underestimating you and giving way to basic advice :-)
Mellon wrote: Allright! You obviously know what you are doing.
I thought you were a mostly AM-player that was looking into GSC neophytes out of curiosity. Sorry for underestimating you and giving way to basic advice :-)
Your all good Dude! It is also better to assume someone is new rather then expecting them to know everything
Your tips were helpful though and I always appreciate someone else's perspective and thoughts on my own issues.
So just curious, for most players and lists, would you say leman Russ tanks are the superior choice for heavy support or would you say basilisk/manticores?
I run valhallan infantry with leman Russ support and a manticore and while most people consider the manticore scary, they will time and again claim my regular leman russe's with hull lascannons as being the part of the list that carries the day.
I had assumed artillery was the better choice for most lists, but when my opponents saw the artillery stats most of them still said they'd rather fight the points in basilisk/manticore than they would my tank line which is usually between 4-6 tanks with about 120-150 infantry in support. I'm guessing for Valhalla specifically tanks are the way to go but I still think a cadian or catachan artillery park would be a terrifying thing to face compared to it's points in leman russe's. Am I missing something here? From what I could tell tournament IG was primarily running either baneblades or artillery of some kind.
MrMoustaffa wrote: So just curious, for most players and lists, would you say leman Russ tanks are the superior choice for heavy support or would you say basilisk/manticores?
I run valhallan infantry with leman Russ support and a manticore and while most people consider the manticore scary, they will time and again claim my regular leman russe's with hull lascannons as being the part of the list that carries the day.
I had assumed artillery was the better choice for most lists, but when my opponents saw the artillery stats most of them still said they'd rather fight the points in basilisk/manticore than they would my tank line which is usually between 4-6 tanks with about 120-150 infantry in support. I'm guessing for Valhalla specifically tanks are the way to go but I still think a cadian or catachan artillery park would be a terrifying thing to face compared to it's points in leman russe's. Am I missing something here? From what I could tell tournament IG was primarily running either baneblades or artillery of some kind.
MIxing Russes and Artillery can fine. The benefit the Russes have is that they can, somewhat depending on loadout, still move and fire effectively. That means they can help with board control and objectives. The only caveat with Russes is that you need to achieve some level of target saturation, otherwise your aren't making the opponent make difficult choices with his target priority. Russes seem to work best when there's enough of them that the opponent doesn't have enough AT to feel comfy about things. With Artillery you can back board it and hide it as much as possible behind terrain and weather the AT storm a lot better, and thus are less problematic if fielded two or three at a time.
I like Valhallan artillery though - firing into CC is cool. It also fits the Russian style fluff really well.
If the rumored 5 PPM Guard turns out to be true, what do you guys think about Death Korps of Krieg? They're also 5 PPM and don't take morale from shooting. Aren't they now better in *almost* every single way (yes I know they don't have the same orders but their orders are really damn similar)?
lliu wrote: If the rumored 5 PPM Guard turns out to be true, what do you guys think about Death Korps of Krieg? They're also 5 PPM and don't take morale from shooting. Aren't they now better in *almost* every single way (yes I know they don't have the same orders but their orders are really damn similar)?
Honestly?
I just don't know. I think that if we go to 5ppm on Guardsmen, we might finally see a shift in the soup lists...but not enough of one to convince the powers that be they screwed up. And that's the part that concerns me the most.
This might seem apocalyptic, but I think if infantry goes to 5ppm guard is completely screwed. They're already not really competitive. 5ppm will assure you never see another guard model.
As for what's better, russ tanks or basilisks? I think it honestly depends on the type of mission you're playing. If you're using ITC rules where usually they'll say "you can't see through the 1st floor of ruins. period" then getting line of sight to your target is much more difficult and indirect artillery is super useful. They survive longer (don't have to expose themselves) and fire every turn no matter what. If you're able to shoot through every crack and window then russes I think come out on top.
gendoikari87 wrote: Guardsmen can go to 10ppm and we’d be fine. The issue is much deeper than cheap chaff
Oh hey, it's the guy that went 12-0 at his local store without using any screens saying Guard is busted again. Have you managed to play somebody outside of your store yet or are you still making sweeping balance judgments based on your store's comically weak meta?
ThePorcupine wrote: This might seem apocalyptic, but I think if infantry goes to 5ppm guard is completely screwed. They're already not really competitive. 5ppm will assure you never see another guard model.
At a competitive level, yeah, but at a competitive level, guard are already screwed. Guard haven't been competitive in tournaments other than being the leading scapegoat for soup since the index.
At any thing less than tournament level, guard is still reasonably competitive, and yet another injustice against guard players won't cause the army to fall apart, and I say that as a footslogging ex-power blob player.
It'll suck, but the only thing I've lost to so far this edition is Eldar. And unlike magic tank-only players, I play people of equal skill to me. Based upon that, my guard, at least, can probably withstand yet one more blow to their overall power level.
Death Korps would be competitive points wise but will not get played in ITC much. The inability to buy a heavy weapon in the squad causes you to give up the Reaper secondary points far too easily to justify the WS and morale benefits unless you are running conscript spam or something else that already surrenders those points.
I think that when 8th dropped, 5ppm guardsmen would have been balanced, and reasonably strong. Now however, mono-guard armies don't place so highly in tournaments. They're still a decent army, but not as cutting edge competitive as many other codexes. So I hope they don't kick us with an infantry nerf now!
Counter intuitively, I think that raising to 5ppm will have very little effect on soup builds. The cheap battalion insert of 2 company commanders and 3 infantry squads will barely be any different if it costs 210pts rather than 180. They're not really taken for killing power per point, they're taken for backfield survivable grunts and 3 CP. 5ppm guardsmen absolutely WILL hurt foot guard as if you're taking, say, 200 guys, then that's 200pts worth of nerf in a 2K list!
Yeah, I played in my first ITC Champions event, and seeing the missions, I realized the days of my guard being top tier were over. When every mission is round by round objectives, plus kill points (essentially), IG need to completely retool. I'm not sure how yet.
Well we can mitigate the "kill unit of 10 or more models" secondary by taking heavy weapons in infantry squads bringing the number down to 9. I also think the prime/command/command deep striking scion combo might not be the best option because it's a suicide mission and you're handing your opponent 3 easy kills (though to be fair I haven't tried).
Polonius wrote: Yeah, I played in my first ITC Champions event, and seeing the missions, I realized the days of my guard being top tier were over. When every mission is round by round objectives, plus kill points (essentially), IG need to completely retool. I'm not sure how yet.
Your list priorities need to completely change to win ITC now with IG. As noted earlier the "9 man squad" by taking a heavy weapon is an obvious start.
Units you want to avoid in ITC are ones that give up tons of secondaries easily. For example, a single tank commander can give up 2-3 pts depending on mission. In addition, small, easily killed units like command squads and Stormtroopers can bleed points like you wouldn't believe, especially since there's a bonus for killing more than your opponent. Stormtroopers are still powerful, but I found myself normally just breaking even on points I gained by dropping in once they all died next turn. This led to me dropping Stormtroopers entirely. In their stead's I'm looking at rough riders and plasma SWS's for concentrated plasma, but that then makes these units primarily counterattack units and not something I can use as easily on offense.
It's lead to me taking things normally considered bad from a competitive standpoint, like Lord commissars, since they do not easily give up points compared to the alternative (regimental standard command squad). It's also led to me taking things that give up points in 3's, so the opponent can't max points, like vehicles with 10+ wounds. With guard you're never going to deny all of them, but you can make it incredibly annoying at least. For example I run valhallan conscripts as my first line of screen. Normally things like death company or what have you would obliterate 4-6 infantry squads on the first line giving up death by a thousand cuts once or twice. However two units of 30 means they don't even proc the first one. Since the 2 conscript squads are the only units that size in my army, opponents are hesitant to take it as a 30 man unit gives up the same points as a 20 for Reaper and they would need to focus on killing all 60 to get the 4 points. My opponents may learn that's the better option in the future though, I'm not sure. If that happens I'll do everything I can to make sure they survive morale and then hide them the rest of the game when they take too many casualties.
I'm still getting to grips with it as you can see, and I dont plan on going to a major tournament since the kind of guard I like to play just isn't favorable to ITC. However I do manage a decent showing against my local group that consists of eldar, blood angels, nids, and necrons. I would never take top table but I can still get wins. I'd imagine for guard to be competitive in ITC it will absolutely require allies, as the newest ITC format heavily favors small, fast, elite armies. Not just because of the typical missions, but because if you can only bring a couple of units of each type you make it hard for your opponent to Max out secondaries.
One thing I will note, the kind of armies that seem to be rewarded by ITC really don't like the late game. Every single game I've played so far with the new missions, the later it got the better my win rate became. Whenever we went to the final turn I've pretty much always won. Problem is in a tournament you'd never make it that far thanks to time.
There's a shock, ITC missions that don't actually balance anything but simply shift the meta arbitrarily you say.
BTW if GW keep hitting guard over the head due to balance issues then I am going to start getting that pessimistic feeling I had in 7th.
If you want to fix the game start with three EASY fixes.
1. You only gain the 3 CP bonus as battle forged for going single faction.
2. Hit mods never stack. I don't care how many sources of -1 or +1 a unit has on them, only ever apply one from each and opposing mods cancel one another.
3. Fix detachments. Makes zero sense when looking at the CP bonuses. A battalion is worth three but vanguard, outrider and spearhead are 1. If a battalion is worth 3 then it should require 1 of each, elite, FA and heavy as well, sort of like 1/3 a brigade.
3. Fix detachments. Makes zero sense when looking at the CP bonuses. A battalion is worth three but vanguard, outrider and spearhead are 1. If a battalion is worth 3 then it should require 1 of each, elite, FA and heavy as well, sort of like 1/3 a brigade.
I agree with everything except this. Battalion is there to reward people for taking the troop tax. It deserves more than vanguard/outrider/spearhead, because those are the "we give up, just pretend your FOC is whatever feels good" choices. I kind of feel like those shouldn't even give any CP, to be honest, but then again, I also like drinking the tears of the SM players who only want to play the elite half of their armies.
DoomMouse wrote: I think that when 8th dropped, 5ppm guardsmen would have been balanced, and reasonably strong. Now however, mono-guard armies don't place so highly in tournaments. They're still a decent army, but not as cutting edge competitive as many other codexes. So I hope they don't kick us with an infantry nerf now!
Counter intuitively, I think that raising to 5ppm will have very little effect on soup builds. The cheap battalion insert of 2 company commanders and 3 infantry squads will barely be any different if it costs 210pts rather than 180. They're not really taken for killing power per point, they're taken for backfield survivable grunts and 3 CP. 5ppm guardsmen absolutely WILL hurt foot guard as if you're taking, say, 200 guys, then that's 200pts worth of nerf in a 2K list!
That's not because guard are weak. Take a pure guard army against any other ingredient pure from an imperial soup list, and guard will win almost every time. Against pure, eg not ynnari abusing, eldar, I'd favor guard. Against a pure chaos army, I'd take guard.
This is the edition of soup, competitive armies are gonna be soupy. And until blood angels, guard were pretty much 70 to 80 percent of all imperial soup. Now they're 'only' 50ish percent. Oh no
DoomMouse wrote: I think that when 8th dropped, 5ppm guardsmen would have been balanced, and reasonably strong. Now however, mono-guard armies don't place so highly in tournaments. They're still a decent army, but not as cutting edge competitive as many other codexes. So I hope they don't kick us with an infantry nerf now!
Counter intuitively, I think that raising to 5ppm will have very little effect on soup builds. The cheap battalion insert of 2 company commanders and 3 infantry squads will barely be any different if it costs 210pts rather than 180. They're not really taken for killing power per point, they're taken for backfield survivable grunts and 3 CP. 5ppm guardsmen absolutely WILL hurt foot guard as if you're taking, say, 200 guys, then that's 200pts worth of nerf in a 2K list!
That's not because guard are weak. Take a pure guard army against any other ingredient pure from an imperial soup list, and guard will win almost every time. Against pure, eg not ynnari abusing, eldar, I'd favor guard. Against a pure chaos army, I'd take guard.
This is the edition of soup, competitive armies are gonna be soupy. And until blood angels, guard were pretty much 70 to 80 percent of all imperial soup. Now they're 'only' 50ish percent. Oh no
While I agree that pure Guard will tend to beat pure other Imperial armies, I’d hesitate to say they beat everyone else as well – especially Eldar. I’ve not lost to pure Guard in a tournament this year, using Eldar (no Ynnari OR Dark Reapers in my list). Guard just simply struggle to hit Eldar, while Eldar have the ability to quickly lock the tanks in combat and nuke screens.
It will be interesting to see what happens between Guard and T’au once the codex is released.
Slabshield bullgryns supported by a custodes vexilus praetor results in 2+/3++ t5 3w ld8 rerollable cc monsters. 5 attacks on the charge if they’re supported by a priest. Two squads of 9 won’t have an issue fitting within the 9” radius bubble. 895pts for 18 of them with the priest and vexilus praetor who is himself a beast in cc. I’m thinking of running them with an astropath and a primaris psycher so I can deny the witch, smite and cast nightshroud.
There is even room under the 9” radius bubble to fit one of the ITC 9 man infantry squads to give this death star objective secured.
CaptainO wrote: Slabshield bullgryns supported by a custodes vexilus praetor results in 2+/3++ t5 3w ld8 rerollable cc monsters. 5 attacks on the charge if they’re supported by a priest. Two squads of 9 won’t have an issue fitting within the 9” radius bubble. 895pts for 18 of them with the priest and vexilus praetor who is himself a beast in cc. I’m thinking of running them with an astropath and a primaris psycher so I can deny the witch, smite and cast nightshroud.
There is even room under the 9” radius bubble to fit one of the ITC 9 man infantry squads to give this death star objective secured.
I've run a similar deathstar with Celestine to give the initial invuln save. The biggest problem I've found is that it's not going to get anywhere quick enough to matter unless up against berserkers or the like.
So, how important are the screens in 8th edition? I played armored company in 6th-7th, but now it seems like there are too many turn-1 charge threats. Is it possible to succeed with tanks and few/no infantry units? Or is buying/painting 50 basic guardsmen a prerequisite for every list?
(This is for standard 40k, not any particular tournament house rules.)
CaptainO wrote: Slabshield bullgryns supported by a custodes vexilus praetor results in 2+/3++ t5 3w ld8 rerollable cc monsters. 5 attacks on the charge if they’re supported by a priest. Two squads of 9 won’t have an issue fitting within the 9” radius bubble. 895pts for 18 of them with the priest and vexilus praetor who is himself a beast in cc. I’m thinking of running them with an astropath and a primaris psycher so I can deny the witch, smite and cast nightshroud.
There is even room under the 9” radius bubble to fit one of the ITC 9 man infantry squads to give this death star objective secured.
I've run a similar deathstar with Celestine to give the initial invuln save. The biggest problem I've found is that it's not going to get anywhere quick enough to matter unless up against berserkers or the like.
That seems to be the main issue. How many bullgryns do you run with celestine? Do you run the "death star" with a priest and psychers (i figure its going to be a prime target for smite and mortal wounds so having a few deny the witch is a must) Having celestine with them would at least allow the death star to project its power by using her double move to get her into combat fast. Also her invulnerable doesn't require the unit to be wholly underneath as far as I can remember although its 6" range rather than 9" wholly covered.
On the other hand The vexilus is half the cost, results in an improved invulnerable save (3++ is the new black and all that) allows a reroll of morale which you'd want to minimize the effects of with a unit this expensive. The vexilus is no slouch in combat either with significantly higher toughness although he does have less wounds and resultant attack strength and number of attacks is slightly worse... I think it would be hard to resist launching celestine at the enemy and therefore removing the invulnerable save. The fact the vexilus has the same range as bullgryns means their more likely to stay together.
I'm looking at running the bullgryns with the mauls for higher strength (and cheaper). They'll still have the frag grenades. A large unit of bullgryns would be ideal for the grenadier stratagem allowing a full squad to fire off 9 x D6 S4 AP0 shots at 6" for the price of a CP. Thats not nothing... I don't have the rule book to hand but isn't there a rule that means grenades into a building always get 6 attacks???
Peregrine wrote: So, how important are the screens in 8th edition? I played armored company in 6th-7th, but now it seems like there are too many turn-1 charge threats. Is it possible to succeed with tanks and few/no infantry units? Or is buying/painting 50 basic guardsmen a prerequisite for every list?
(This is for standard 40k, not any particular tournament house rules.)
You need some kind of screen or you will lose against a competent opponent. Some things you might want to consider as a screen, depending upon how many drops you want to add to your army (all tanks can be very low giving you a good chance of getting the +1):
One large conscript squad deployed in a line
Scout sentinels
Space marine scouts if you are comfortable with soup
Infantry squads
Peregrine wrote: So, how important are the screens in 8th edition? I played armored company in 6th-7th, but now it seems like there are too many turn-1 charge threats. Is it possible to succeed with tanks and few/no infantry units? Or is buying/painting 50 basic guardsmen a prerequisite for every list?
(This is for standard 40k, not any particular tournament house rules.)
Conventional wisdom is that they're required. Some users around here have claimed that they've run tank companies with zero infantry overwhelmingly successfully, but honestly if that were that the case I would find their opponents pretty suspect, especially when those users claim they're undefeated after more than ten games of doing it. Either someone is telling stories, or someone's opponents have a hard time learning their lesson.
Don't get me wrong, a zero screen list COULD work, but it'd be very situational. I've run successful GK + Scion lists that didn't have any screen, but there's a whole lot of lists that would have easily ended me by the end of turn 1.
Alpharius Walks wrote: You need some kind of screen or you will lose against a competent opponent. Some things you might want to consider as a screen, depending upon how many drops you want to add to your army (all tanks can be very low giving you a good chance of getting the +1):
One large conscript squad deployed in a line
Scout sentinels
Space marine scouts if you are comfortable with soup
Infantry squads
Zero interest in soup. How do the Sentinels work as a screen? Is it sufficient to just have a larger no deep strike bubble, even though melee units can easily move around them to reach a target (since their footprint is very low)?
Alpharius Walks wrote: You need some kind of screen or you will lose against a competent opponent. Some things you might want to consider as a screen, depending upon how many drops you want to add to your army (all tanks can be very low giving you a good chance of getting the +1):
One large conscript squad deployed in a line
Scout sentinels
Space marine scouts if you are comfortable with soup
Infantry squads
Zero interest in soup. How do the Sentinels work as a screen? Is it sufficient to just have a larger no deep strike bubble, even though melee units can easily move around them to reach a target (since their footprint is very low)?
depends on deployment and list. Some lists, like the death company shenanigans that can charge 3d6", will just hop over any screen you have anyways, meaning that on the drop at least sentinels work about as well as guardsmen. However after the initial drop I think you'd find infantry more useful. Sentinels big advantage is that big scout move at the start of the game, but it only works if your opponent doesn't bring things like scouts to shut you down.
I think after turn 1 you'll find that some infantry would help, but on the other hand any list worth it's salt can kill 60 guardsmen a turn easy. You would probably find any guardsmen in a position to screen would be cleared turn 1 and you're back at square one anyways. My main list runs about 120 line infantry as the screen (many have plasma lascannon for additional firepower, while others are barebones), about 20-30 specialist guardsmen, 3 scout sentinels, 4 russe's and a manticore. Usually 1/2 to 2/3rds of my guardsmen are dead by turn 3. That said I rarely lose my tanks unless I'm stuck on a very unfavorable deployment like Dawn of war. If I can get something like hammer and anvil, I won't have a tank even at risk of being charged till turn 3 even if my entire screen had died turn 1. If you can keep the tanks alive and firing to that point you're golden, especially if you can kill the mobile assault units in turn 2-3 to let you move up. It doesn't matter that I have maybe 40 infantry alive, all my tanks are up and running and at that point I've either neutered the enemy's AT or I lost the game because I did something sloppy/stupid.
I've been trying pure tank companies at a thousand points and found the only way to keep pure tanks alive is to spread out and accept that against an alpha charge list you will lose a couple on the first turn. Having cheap vehicles like sentinels or hellhounds to act as bait would be your best bet more than likely, unless you have baneblades. The tanks must be more than 4" apart to keep the enemy from piling into additional tanks at the end of combat. You're still at somewhat of a risk to multicharges but at least there the opponent has to split his attacks.
I'm sure there are some treadheads who have some additional tips, that's just what I've noticed as an infantry player. Tanks have a much steeper learning curve in my opinion as a pure army. Feels very different from running them without infantry support.
It seems like trying to protect my infantry from morale losses is a lost cause at this point.
I've run infantry squads, next to a commander + regimental standard, + Catachan Doctrine giving +1ld to units within 6" of an officer, and my units still die almost 100% of the time from morale. Typically the units either get wiped by some crazy shooting, or die the rest of the way from morale, or both.
Anybody have any tricks up their sleeve for this? I've started looking at infantry squads as essentially ablative wounds, just enough to survive one turn of enemy shooting.
Cothonian wrote: It seems like trying to protect my infantry from morale losses is a lost cause at this point.
I've run infantry squads, next to a commander + regimental standard, + Catachan Doctrine giving +1ld to units within 6" of an officer, and my units still die almost 100% of the time from morale. Typically the units either get wiped by some crazy shooting, or die the rest of the way from morale, or both.
Anybody have any tricks up their sleeve for this? I've started looking at infantry squads as essentially ablative wounds, just enough to survive one turn of enemy shooting.
I don't have any sage advice but i actually like that morale is an issue for guard. It should be. Just wish some other armies, where it fits the background, would suffer from it.
Cothonian wrote: It seems like trying to protect my infantry from morale losses is a lost cause at this point.
It really is. The IG solution to losses is not to dump points into trying to prevent losses, it's to bring more copies of the unit so that when the first one dies you still have replacements. How many points are you investing in those morale buffs, compared to just bringing another infantry squad or three? And, with only 10-man squads, how effective is that damaged squad you're trying to protect once it has taken enough losses for morale to be a significant issue?
If the unit needs to survive for mission purposes or wanting to keep a heavy/special around the stratagems will save a couple per turn. If it is not important just let it die and bring redundant squads instead of morale buffs.
As far as scout sentinels, they are not always valuable but against any opponents that rely on deep strike (and equivalent psychic powers) or outflanking to get close you can use the scout move to build a huge first turn denial bubble.
Rumors are that regular guardsmen are being bumped up to 5 ppm. In most of my army compositions I always included a sniper team, composed of a special weapons squad with three sniper rifles.
One thing that just occurred to me is that Ratlings cost 5ppm, and that a unit of them would cost less, have better ballistics skill, and the capability to set up anywhere. I think I see some potential (for those of us who enjoy running snipers.)
This chapter approved stuff/online faq is killing me. Can't keep track of it. My Codex isn't even applicable anymore. (Seriously I was out of country for two months...)
They ever update hard copies? Or even online copies? (I hate digital codex's buy hey, if it works it works)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Moving along from my angry rant: Where do I find these points adjustments? Rules errata were easy enough to locate (and were well organized), but I cannot find the points adjustments aside from word of mouth.
fe40k wrote: Is there a way to deepstrike/outlank Astropaths?
As far as I am aware, the similar option depends on how you/GW come down on embarking infantry on Tallarn transports using the Ambush stratagem. If you can embark anything on such a Tallarn transport then you could put an astropath in a Chimera or other transport. If not then I believe they are currently out of options. I do not believe there are any remaining infantry units with the Officer keyword but no <REGIMENT>.
I don't play AM, but was considering starting an army (IG/Elysians/DarkAngels/Custodes); one thing I really wanted to do was load a Stormlord up with 18xHWT-Mortars and use it as a dakkaboat; 60 Mega-Bolter shots, 18x6 Mortars, and 6+3 misc heavy bolter/heavy stubber shots... mathematically the mortars aren't too effective, but it'd be fun.
Also, was thinking about the different regimental traits and such; initially was going to be Tallarn for outflanking, but without the ability to bring in some additional Astropaths (since they can't disembark the turn they come in on the Stormlord), you'd lose a lot of survivability; also, it's expensive CP wise - however, I just read the "Crush Them!" stratagem; which looks great.
Which means, having it on the table turn 1, and using it as a (mainly) stationary firebase w/ support... Vostroyans would add extra range, but Cadians have a great stratagem if you land an unsaved wound randomly with the mortars. Vostroyan also has the +1 to hit for a single vehicle/squad for 1cp, so that's something.
I imagine the rest of the list would be a mobile strike force, such as Ravenwing fliers and Custode bikers - but at the moment, I'm focusing on if a Stormlord+Mortars would even be effective at all.
fe40k wrote: What're your guys' thoughts on a Stormlord?
It got less cool since the index. I still like it, but I think that turns a lot of people off of it. I normally put all my anti-tank eggs in one basket when I use it. Give it all the sponsons, put a silly number of lascannon HWT inside, use the rest of my army to keep stuff off of it, sprinkle in basilisks, and then be amazed that it always works out as well as it does.
With regards to morale, I've actually started to rate valhallan tactics to be up there with cadian and tallarn for foot guard.
Opponents who have decent firepower and good grasp of strategy will aim to kill 5-7 guardsmen per squad then move on. I find this happens a lot against eldar reapers in particular. With valhallan it usually saves my plasma gun and bolter out of the unit, free for one last turn of damage dealing before they go down.
It also gives you access to Petrovs 45, which can shield a bunch of squads turn 1 from morale. Alongside Petrovs 45 I've been running a unit of 30 conscripts right on the front rank. They advance right down the middle of the table and force the enemy to deal with them, while using go-to-ground and an astropath for psychic barrier. I've found this unit to be great at soaking up anti infantry firepower. In my last game I had a turn of 2+ save conscripts, as they had psychic barrier, go to ground and managed to get in cover
Peregrine wrote: So, how important are the screens in 8th edition? I played armored company in 6th-7th, but now it seems like there are too many turn-1 charge threats. Is it possible to succeed with tanks and few/no infantry units? Or is buying/painting 50 basic guardsmen a prerequisite for every list?
(This is for standard 40k, not any particular tournament house rules.)
You need some kind of screen or you will lose against a competent opponent. Some things you might want to consider as a screen, depending upon how many drops you want to add to your army (all tanks can be very low giving you a good chance of getting the +1):
One large conscript squad deployed in a line
Scout sentinels
Space marine scouts if you are comfortable with soup
Infantry squads
Infantry squads work well if you set up an ambush. As long as you don't get stuck in CC a turn 1 charge can work in your favor.
Whatever charges you has to deal with a lot of rapid fire flashlights and plasma. Cyclops are terrifying to most turn 1 charge armies. A SWS with demo charges is another cheap ambush unit.
58% of the time the army going 2nd won their game at LVO. Turn 1 charges are not our problem. Minus 1 to hit penalties being as ubiquitous as lasguns is the #1 problem for IG.
DoomMouse wrote: With regards to morale, I've actually started to rate valhallan tactics to be up there with cadian and tallarn for foot guard.
Opponents who have decent firepower and good grasp of strategy will aim to kill 5-7 guardsmen per squad then move on. I find this happens a lot against eldar reapers in particular. With valhallan it usually saves my plasma gun and bolter out of the unit, free for one last turn of damage dealing before they go down.
It also gives you access to Petrovs 45, which can shield a bunch of squads turn 1 from morale. Alongside Petrovs 45 I've been running a unit of 30 conscripts right on the front rank. They advance right down the middle of the table and force the enemy to deal with them, while using go-to-ground and an astropath for psychic barrier. I've found this unit to be great at soaking up anti infantry firepower. In my last game I had a turn of 2+ save conscripts, as they had psychic barrier, go to ground and managed to get in cover
I've come to a similar conclusion as well. Valhallan is a real hidden gem for foot guard. I run lascannons/plasma and that morale mechanic means I usually get a final lascannons shot with every squad. It really helps take an alpha strike on the nose and it holds up better against leadership debuffs. Their order is also niche, but potentially life saving. It can solve one of the most glaring issues Russe's have, having a single model tie them up in combat. Yes, you risk hitting your own tanks, but that's where the Valhallan vehicle trait kicks in and I'd even argue gives a strong reason to take yarrick. If you clear the tank with "fire on my command" and didn't fall back with it, it can now shoot, normally something you could only do with smite. The vehicle trait also pairs really well with footguard if you run russe's for durability reasons. Killing infantry and leman russes is like pulling teeth to begin with, many opponents have stated it's incredibly frustrating realizing that a tank that usually degrades at 7 wounds now only degrades at 3. This is a big deal in my meta at least because I see lots of -1 (two ravenguard and an elder player) they know if they just ping a few wounds most guard tanks can't even hit them after long, so they'll do 5-6 damage and move on, crippling each tank. With Valhalla, you force them to focus fire more which often leads to overkilling single tanks and ultimately gives you more shots in the long run. Maybe not the best idea for tournaments but it absolutely works for most non tourney areas.
I actually run two 30 man conscript blobs. I'm still unsure if it's necessary but with all the first turn charges I deal with I need it. For morale, I run mk 45, which is worth it's weight in gold, a commissar tank, and have been experimenting with yarrick/Lord commissar/command squads for the 3rd bubble. You don't need much with valhallans, but it's nice to have sometimes. What's really nice is most of these valhallan abilities don't cost points, they're just CP being paid on units you were going to take anyways, most which can refund for free with grand strategist. For what it's worth, I find the ld9 commissars and commissar tanks give kind of niche but sometimes useful. My opponents, many of whom read lots of tournament stuff and like to go to local events, will target them whenever possible. I'm not sure if they overestimate the usefulness of LD9 or if it's really that good, but if my opponents consistently hate something in my list it can't be that useless.
For other regiments that have issues with morale, the key thing is knowing when to hold and when to fold, aka when a squad actually merits staying around. For the most part morale matters most in infantry heavy lists. If you're taking bare minimum as a screen with just a mortar to screw the Reaper in ItC, morale isn't that important to you. It's when you actually arm infantry with decent weapons that it becomes key.
The reason why is because battleshock is essentially "free" kills for your opponent. If your whole squad is bare, your opponent is only getting 4 or so points every model that runs. But if you have plasma, heavy weapons, etc. the points these final models represent can Spike to 11-15ptd per wound. This adds up. So for example I usually have a 6 lascannons/plasma squads, if my ability matters half the time to change a wiped squad to say 3 survivors, I'm saving 39pts 3 times. 39pts that is still a lascannon and a plasma which can hit far above it's weight. And that's ignoring things like potentially surviving to hold/contest an objective, or deny crucial killpoints (very important on a per turn basis for ITC).
For the guy running LD 10 guardsmen, I feel you're either seeing confirmation bias or have absolutely awful luck. If you take say 7 casualties, the absolute max for most squads before you start losing key weapons, if you roll a 3 or less you're safe. That's a 50/50 to just straight up ignore morale on a 40pt squad even after 70% casualties. That is a pretty good deal. And if you fail, you're still going to keep at least one of those weapons or the sarge alive another turn.
In order to really nail morale, you need to learn the art of casualty removal. This is why Sarge's and heavy weapons are important in each squad. Your sarge will vary quite a bit on when he's key and when he's just a wound counter. The higher the casualties, the more you need to keep the Sarge, the less, the less risk you have of regretting losing the Sarge. This is where heavy weapons come in. You can take a wound on the weapon "for free" by pulling the loader. The loader should be the last casualty whenever a squad loses 60-80% in a single turn. By pulling the loader last, he does not count as a wound for morale, which means that's one less LD to take. Yes, your weapon team dies first afterwards, but it puts your opponent in a situation where they often need to overkill a Target to ensure it's dead. It will make them choose, punt more shots into a 2-3 man squad in the hopes it finishes them (which at this point in a turn is often non optimal weapons like anti tank or harder hitting blast weapons) or they ignore it and pray you fail morale. With LD 10, you essentially have fight to the death strat as an auto pass for 1cp in most situations. With insane bravery, you can save 2 squads, and if you're really clever/lucky, you can keep a 3rd from running with a command reroll. That's enough to seriously swing itc "kill more" bonuses and deny a full "thousand cuts" as well. This is to say nothing if for example you have options for LD rerolls, like an Inquisitor, which makes it where you have good odds of saving a squad even at 8-9 casualties in a single phase.
Just played a massive game against Death Guard over the weekend. I used a Macharius Vulcan, Banehammer, and Shadowsword with a conqueror, Hellhound, Bullgryn, and a bunch of basic infantry. It was a blast, I had never used multiple super heavies in one list before.
I used Voystroyan doctrines for the first time because I wanted to try out the Stratagem for +1 to hit. I must say, 42" heavy Bolters, 30" storm Bolters on a conqueror are actually really good, and 30" lasguns were pretty enticing! I normally play Catachans for fun but I might switch it up from time to time.
The Banehammer holding my company commanders, Commissar Yarrick, a tech priest, and Bullgryn allowed me to get +1 to the roll off and I got first turn.
Turn 1 my Macharius Vulcan used vengeance for Cadia and did 26 damage to Magnus with slightly above average rolling. And the 15 heavy stubber shots wrecked some poxwalkers. My Shadowsword did 36 damage to a knight crusader, lol. My Banehammer did 7 wounds to Mortarion and killed all but 1 of his deathshroud bodyguards. You can probably figure out how the rest of the game went.
DoomMouse wrote: With regards to morale, I've actually started to rate valhallan tactics to be up there with cadian and tallarn for foot guard.
Opponents who have decent firepower and good grasp of strategy will aim to kill 5-7 guardsmen per squad then move on. I find this happens a lot against eldar reapers in particular. With valhallan it usually saves my plasma gun and bolter out of the unit, free for one last turn of damage dealing before they go down.
It also gives you access to Petrovs 45, which can shield a bunch of squads turn 1 from morale. Alongside Petrovs 45 I've been running a unit of 30 conscripts right on the front rank. They advance right down the middle of the table and force the enemy to deal with them, while using go-to-ground and an astropath for psychic barrier. I've found this unit to be great at soaking up anti infantry firepower. In my last game I had a turn of 2+ save conscripts, as they had psychic barrier, go to ground and managed to get in cover
I've come to a similar conclusion as well. Valhallan is a real hidden gem for foot guard. I run lascannons/plasma and that morale mechanic means I usually get a final lascannons shot with every squad. It really helps take an alpha strike on the nose and it holds up better against leadership debuffs. Their order is also niche, but potentially life saving. It can solve one of the most glaring issues Russe's have, having a single model tie them up in combat. Yes, you risk hitting your own tanks, but that's where the Valhallan vehicle trait kicks in and I'd even argue gives a strong reason to take yarrick. If you clear the tank with "fire on my command" and didn't fall back with it, it can now shoot, normally something you could only do with smite. The vehicle trait also pairs really well with footguard if you run russe's for durability reasons. Killing infantry and leman russes is like pulling teeth to begin with, many opponents have stated it's incredibly frustrating realizing that a tank that usually degrades at 7 wounds now only degrades at 3. This is a big deal in my meta at least because I see lots of -1 (two ravenguard and an elder player) they know if they just ping a few wounds most guard tanks can't even hit them after long, so they'll do 5-6 damage and move on, crippling each tank. With Valhalla, you force them to focus fire more which often leads to overkilling single tanks and ultimately gives you more shots in the long run. Maybe not the best idea for tournaments but it absolutely works for most non tourney areas.
I actually run two 30 man conscript blobs. I'm still unsure if it's necessary but with all the first turn charges I deal with I need it. For morale, I run mk 45, which is worth it's weight in gold, a commissar tank, and have been experimenting with yarrick/Lord commissar/command squads for the 3rd bubble. You don't need much with valhallans, but it's nice to have sometimes. What's really nice is most of these valhallan abilities don't cost points, they're just CP being paid on units you were going to take anyways, most which can refund for free with grand strategist. For what it's worth, I find the ld9 commissars and commissar tanks give kind of niche but sometimes useful. My opponents, many of whom read lots of tournament stuff and like to go to local events, will target them whenever possible. I'm not sure if they overestimate the usefulness of LD9 or if it's really that good, but if my opponents consistently hate something in my list it can't be that useless.
For other regiments that have issues with morale, the key thing is knowing when to hold and when to fold, aka when a squad actually merits staying around. For the most part morale matters most in infantry heavy lists. If you're taking bare minimum as a screen with just a mortar to screw the Reaper in ItC, morale isn't that important to you. It's when you actually arm infantry with decent weapons that it becomes key.
The reason why is because battleshock is essentially "free" kills for your opponent. If your whole squad is bare, your opponent is only getting 4 or so points every model that runs. But if you have plasma, heavy weapons, etc. the points these final models represent can Spike to 11-15ptd per wound. This adds up. So for example I usually have a 6 lascannons/plasma squads, if my ability matters half the time to change a wiped squad to say 3 survivors, I'm saving 39pts 3 times. 39pts that is still a lascannon and a plasma which can hit far above it's weight. And that's ignoring things like potentially surviving to hold/contest an objective, or deny crucial killpoints (very important on a per turn basis for ITC).
For the guy running LD 10 guardsmen, I feel you're either seeing confirmation bias or have absolutely awful luck. If you take say 7 casualties, the absolute max for most squads before you start losing key weapons, if you roll a 3 or less you're safe. That's a 50/50 to just straight up ignore morale on a 40pt squad even after 70% casualties. That is a pretty good deal. And if you fail, you're still going to keep at least one of those weapons or the sarge alive another turn.
In order to really nail morale, you need to learn the art of casualty removal. This is why Sarge's and heavy weapons are important in each squad. Your sarge will vary quite a bit on when he's key and when he's just a wound counter. The higher the casualties, the more you need to keep the Sarge, the less, the less risk you have of regretting losing the Sarge. This is where heavy weapons come in. You can take a wound on the weapon "for free" by pulling the loader. The loader should be the last casualty whenever a squad loses 60-80% in a single turn. By pulling the loader last, he does not count as a wound for morale, which means that's one less LD to take. Yes, your weapon team dies first afterwards, but it puts your opponent in a situation where they often need to overkill a Target to ensure it's dead. It will make them choose, punt more shots into a 2-3 man squad in the hopes it finishes them (which at this point in a turn is often non optimal weapons like anti tank or harder hitting blast weapons) or they ignore it and pray you fail morale. With LD 10, you essentially have fight to the death strat as an auto pass for 1cp in most situations. With insane bravery, you can save 2 squads, and if you're really clever/lucky, you can keep a 3rd from running with a command reroll. That's enough to seriously swing itc "kill more" bonuses and deny a full "thousand cuts" as well. This is to say nothing if for example you have options for LD rerolls, like an Inquisitor, which makes it where you have good odds of saving a squad even at 8-9 casualties in a single phase.
Thanks for the information and thoughts.
Honestly have had a lot of bad luck with morale for my infantry, I have an incredible ability to roll 6's during morale tests. I have been doing well overall in games, just trying to find a way to reduce infantry casualties.
I have been eyeing up that Valhallan Doctrine... very appealing for the infantry to say the least. Must admit though, I typically run a little bit vehicle heavy (Catachan Doctrine + Hellhounds is bloody amazing.) Guess I'll stick with what I'm doing. At some point when I have more infantry I will probably try out Valhallan.
I'd give it a try if I were you. You'd be amazed how much that vehicle ability helps. It's so handy when going second I'm even considering a techpriest, just to ensure my opponents must kill a tank or else it can go back up to full BS from a single HP. Still probably better to just buy another tank, but it's a fun idea at least.
If you do go valhallan, go big or go home. Other than sentinels, the lightest vehicle I'll run is a chimera or manticore profile. The tougher they are to wound and damage the better the trait performs, and since sentinels never degrade they basically have the trait anyways. It really shines with leman russes, nothing quite takes the wind from someone's sails to knock 8 wounds off a leman Russ and watch it fire back like it was nothing.
I will say if you're going Valhalla you are giving up serious alpha strike potential. You build Valhalla planning to go second, with going first sometimes even being a not so great idea with some itc missions. You are building your list to take a punch over anything else, and then hit back back harder. The very definition of a guard list, grinding your opponent down with attrition. I actually worry more about my opponent giving me the first turn these days with ITC missions than going second, even against alpha strike heavy lists. But who's going to give a guard list bristling with plasma, lascannons, and artillery first turn willingly? Since so many ITC bonuses hinge on end of round scoring, going second allows a guard list to know exactly where to advance it's units, how many units it needs to kill, and what bonus it needs to deny. No other regiment can really take the hits like Valhalla can to take advantage of this. The trade off of course, is that Catachan and Cadian lists have such ridiculously high firepower their plan is to just kill the other guy to where taking objectives and bonuses isn't an issue, but going second risks serious issues if you weren't aware of a certain shenanigan the opponent has or they can get melee into your lines. It's a give and a take. Valhalla just fits my style better, but I will be the first to tell you that there is nothing wrong with taking good old Catachans and Cadians. They're tried and true regiments that are very straightforward with lots of advice out there. Meanwhile my Valhallans are more a weird counter meta idea that could easily get screwed over if the meta shifts.
Cothonian wrote: This chapter approved stuff/online faq is killing me. Can't keep track of it. My Codex isn't even applicable anymore. (Seriously I was out of country for two months...)
They ever update hard copies? Or even online copies? (I hate digital codex's buy hey, if it works it works)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Moving along from my angry rant: Where do I find these points adjustments? Rules errata were easy enough to locate (and were well organized), but I cannot find the points adjustments aside from word of mouth.
The point fixes are in the Chapter Approved book.
The digital copies do update with the most recent points changes (at least the ones I own have). They don't update any of the other FAQ changes - only the points. You have to download a fresh version to get the changes.
Well, some months have passed since I last were following the thread. So I have read the last 20 pages to infuse myself with the latest tactics, and search for my questioning, without finding a clear answer.
What I am wondering is about the most favourable loadouts for line infantry squads. In the published lists for tournaments (or for more casual play) I see in my country, line infantry squads are mostly played barebones : so as a screen and occasional objective grabbers. On the other hand the way I am used to play them is somewhat inherited from the powerblob of late. Sure, I quickly dropped the power weapons, but I kept the lascannons. However with first turn charges (or at least second turn), plus alpha-strikes and such things, I'm questioning about the utility of equipping the squads with a lascannon, despite how good this weapon may be.
Is keeping the squads cheap a move everyone else has done ? Am I simply too much used to my beloved lascannons ?
What I'm thinking of doing now is to keep a heavy weapon team, but a much cheaper heavy bolter, add a boltgun for the sergeant. So that would total 49 points for the squad which is still reasonable, gives them a definite purpose as anti-horde, letting tempestus scions and support tanks the responsibility of hitting hard targets.
Always add bolters to the sergeants - point for point it's really good firepower investment over your army.
Barebones squads are good as screens and chaff.
Plasma guns are amazing value firepower on advancing squads. 48pt plasma-bolter squads are good for line infantry. Melta, flamer and grenade launchers are generally superceded by plasma guns in my opinion point for point and not worth considering while plasma exists.
Heavy bolters and mortars are reasonable additions. My problem with them is that they incentivise you not to move so you get max firepower, so you might be missing out on rapid fire lasguns, or getting bodies towards objectives or tying up tanks in CC. Im more of a fan of plasma and lascannons as they can engage targets that infantry squads will struggle to hurt. InTC format heavy weapons are great as they can deny your opponent the reaper secondary objectives.
Lascannon squads are definitely worth it, as they're very durable so should keep the expensive gun firing most of the game. A sniper rifle isn't a bad throw away include on one of these squads too as they will likely be standing still. Cadian tactics will get you the most out of this squad, particularly if you have a few orders floating around to twin link it.
I can't really see the point of power weapons on sergeants - I'd rather just have more guardsmen. If anyone was going to take a power sword or fist, it would make more sense for it to be a company commander as they have more attacks, better WS and opponents will want to try and charge these guys.
In ITC a heavy weapon is a must. To me infantry in competitive play is a screen with obsec that is very effective at clearing other screens. Mortars play into this quite well although you can always experiment with your own preferences and ideas. I personally think plasma is still worth it but if you look at top lists that goes in and out of favor.
Top 16 had two "Astra Militarum" lists. One was barely more than 1/3 points spent on AM; the rest was BA and Custodes. The other one had a good amount of BA souped in and what I think were bikes?
fe40k wrote: What're your guys' thoughts on a Stormlord?
I don't play AM, but was considering starting an army (IG/Elysians/DarkAngels/Custodes); one thing I really wanted to do was load a Stormlord up with 18xHWT-Mortars and use it as a dakkaboat; 60 Mega-Bolter shots, 18x6 Mortars, and 6+3 misc heavy bolter/heavy stubber shots... mathematically the mortars aren't too effective, but it'd be fun.
Also, was thinking about the different regimental traits and such; initially was going to be Tallarn for outflanking, but without the ability to bring in some additional Astropaths (since they can't disembark the turn they come in on the Stormlord), you'd lose a lot of survivability; also, it's expensive CP wise - however, I just read the "Crush Them!" stratagem; which looks great.
Which means, having it on the table turn 1, and using it as a (mainly) stationary firebase w/ support... Vostroyans would add extra range, but Cadians have a great stratagem if you land an unsaved wound randomly with the mortars. Vostroyan also has the +1 to hit for a single vehicle/squad for 1cp, so that's something.
I imagine the rest of the list would be a mobile strike force, such as Ravenwing fliers and Custode bikers - but at the moment, I'm focusing on if a Stormlord+Mortars would even be effective at all.
I've run Shadowsword on occasion and depending on your club's meta you may do ok. I never did (I have a very competitive group) and only pull it out for fun knowing full well I'll lose around 1/4 of my armies points in one turn :( If I have it out on the table turn 1 it gets focused down and dies - yes I know it means the rest of my army lives to fight another day yet it is still very demoralizing. I've tried ambushing him so I know I'll get one turn of shooting - which is a hoot 'cause that volcano cannon put's out the hurt on stuff...and then it dies in my opponents turn. So you have to decide how bad is it if your superheavy gets popped turn 1?
1500 pts, max 3 detachments, no duplicate detachments, non-troops max 3 units(even if they split so no 2x3 leman russ) tournament coming up. Considering dusting off my IG again. Bit limited on what I can field(so no storm troopers for example) but I'll be at least trying to paint some more infantry and weapons for this. How does it look?
Battallion: Cadian
company commander(grand strategist, kurov's aquila)
company commander
primaris psyker(psychic barrier, night shroud)
Total 1497. 7 CP+recycling quite a few I think. I need to check do I have enough commander models without special gear due to WYSIWYG or do I need to get some power weapons(ugh) there.
Would fallen cadia relic for 1CP be worth it? (originally list btw was supposed to be 2xbattalion+1 spearhead for 10 CP but then I noticed no double detachment so infantry had to be jammed into same battalion) Would be playing once per game. Would feel dirty trying to use every turn despite being RAW.
tneva82 wrote: 1500 pts, max 3 detachments, no duplicate detachments, non-troops max 3 units(even if they split so no 2x3 leman russ) tournament coming up. Considering dusting off my IG again. Bit limited on what I can field(so no storm troopers for example) but I'll be at least trying to paint some more infantry and weapons for this. How does it look?
Spoiler:
Battallion: Cadian
company commander(grand strategist, kurov's aquila)
company commander
primaris psyker(psychic barrier, night shroud)
Total 1497. 7 CP+recycling quite a few I think. I need to check do I have enough commander models without special gear due to WYSIWYG or do I need to get some power weapons(ugh) there.
Would fallen cadia relic for 1CP be worth it? (originally list btw was supposed to be 2xbattalion+1 spearhead for 10 CP but then I noticed no double detachment so infantry had to be jammed into same battalion) Would be playing once per game. Would feel dirty trying to use every turn despite being RAW.
Unsurprisingly plan is going to be shoot 'em up.
Definitely, go for the extra relic. You have Grand Strategist and the Aquila. I'd drop the sentinel, LRHB side sponsors, and the special weapons squads for some plasma vets and a tech priest if you can squeeze him in.
There is a page in the IG codex, right next to the regimental doctrines, with a list of units that never take away your regiment trait. They cannot get your regiment trait (cadians for example) but they never exclude it from anyone else either.
These units are things like commissars, pyskers, ogryn, fliers, etc. The quickest shortcut is if the unit doesn't have the <regiment> tag, it can probably be taken with any regiment.
The chimera with Stormtroopers is an interesting one however, I think it might actually make you lose the Stormtroopers doctrine, I'll need to grab my book and see.
MrMoustaffa wrote: There is a page in the IG codex, right next to the regimental doctrines, with a list of units that never take away your regiment trait. They cannot get your regiment trait (cadians for example) but they never exclude it from anyone else either.
These units are things like commissars, pyskers, ogryn, fliers, etc. The quickest shortcut is if the unit doesn't have the <regiment> tag, it can probably be taken with any regiment.
The chimera with Stormtroopers is an interesting one however, I think it might actually make you lose the Stormtroopers doctrine, I'll need to grab my book and see.
Problem I had was paragraph above that which made me wonder which takes precedence.
As for chimera guess it loses doctrine...
More questions. I\ll be having 2 tauroxes. Are they a) easy enough to magnetize b) which one would be? Annoyingly both aren't usable by Scions, just the more expensive one. Then again not that scions really want a ride anyway. But prime would provide decent fire support along it. OTOH taurox is cheaper, twin autocannons still ain't all that bad and could give a lift to infantry which could be handy for objective grabbing. Neither probably are super hot choices but then again I'm not looking for super competive armies anyway.
I actually really like my bog standard taurox, the "party bus" as it's known in my area. In any given game it probably rolls half of all my 6's, so take that anecdotal evidence with a bit of salt that said, it's cheap, fast, surprisingly tough, and doesn't pay too much for twin autocannons. I modeled mine on the turret but you could magnetize them to the hull I guess. Turret shouldn't be hard to magnetize either. I just had no interest in using them for my Stormtroopers so I built it as a basic truck and called it a day.
As for what takes precedence, we have a specific rule on page 132 called "Advisors and Auxilla". It definitely takes precedence. The specific units that do not remove regiment traits are
*Techpriests
*servitors
*Ministorum priests
*Crusaders
*Aeronautical units
*Militarum Auxilla units (ratligs, ogryn, etc)
*Officio Prefectus (commissars
*Pyskers
In Addition, Militarum Tempestus have their own section above it that clearly states that storm roofers only get a doctrine if everything in the detachments has the "Militarum Tempestus" keyword or falls under the "Advisors and Auxilla" rule.
Now this said, just because you can't take chimeras without losing the "Stormtroopers" doctrine, doesn't mean they can't ride in one. They are Astra Militarum infantry, which means they can hitch a ride in one. Heck, they can even bum a ride off a normal Taurox amusingly. So what you would need to do is take a normal IG detachment of some kind with enough units to cover your chimera needs, and then just start the game in them. The real question is why would you, since deepstriking is like a transport with almost 0 downsides and almost guaranteed delivery, considering anything you can't deepstriking to hit probably wouldn't be able to be reached by mechanized infantry anyways.
In Addition, Militarum Tempestus have their own section above it that clearly states that storm roofers only get a doctrine if everything in the detachments has the "Militarum Tempestus" keyword or falls under the "Advisors and Auxilla" rule.
Actually latter part can only be guessed from NEXT paragraph. It doesn't mention advisors and auxilia at all. At least I can't find that on my book. Do you by chance have ebook version where it states?
The real question is why would you, since deepstriking is like a transport with almost 0 downsides and almost guaranteed delivery, considering anything you can't deepstriking to hit probably wouldn't be able to be reached by mechanized infantry anyways.
That's what I don't like all that much :( There should be reason to transport them. They wouldn't have designed TRANSPORT for them if there was no reason to. Poor rules writing from GW.
All I have is the physical codex but it's pretty clear advisors and Auxilla states that
The units listed below can be included in an Astra Militarum detachment without preventing other units from gaining a Regimental Doctrine.
<Stormtroopers> is a Regimental Doctrine. Therefore, it is not affected by taking Advisors and Auxilla. This matches up a bit with RAI as well because in their "codex" they got for 7th they had units like Commissars and Valkyries, things the Advisors and Auxilla rule specifically states as being kosher.
On the other hand, these units would not technically have the Militarum Tempestus keyword, so I see where you're coming from. I think for casual play and the like it's fine but if you were going to a tournament it may be worth double checking just to make sure the event is ok with it, just so you don't get disqualified in the top 16 or something because of a really odd technicality. I honestly am not sure which takes precedence, it does seem like a major kick in the nads to the crazy few who built full armies when that codex dropped including Commissars and Valkyries only to be told they lose their regiment trait if they take them, especially considering the Stormtroopers start collecting box still comes with a commissar.
It's not covered in the FAQ, I just double-checked. Might be worth emailing in although I'm fairly sure GW has the FAQ mostly finished at this point.
MrMoustaffa wrote: All I have is the physical codex but it's pretty clear advisors and Auxilla states that
The units listed below can be included in an Astra Militarum detachment without preventing other units from gaining a Regimental Doctrine.
<Stormtroopers> is a Regimental Doctrine. Therefore, it is not affected by taking Advisors and Auxilla. This matches up a bit with RAI as well because in their "codex" they got for 7th they had units like Commissars and Valkyries, things the Advisors and Auxilla rule specifically states as being kosher.
On the other hand, these units would not technically have the Militarum Tempestus keyword, so I see where you're coming from. I think for casual play and the like it's fine but if you were going to a tournament it may be worth double checking just to make sure the event is ok with it, just so you don't get disqualified in the top 16 or something because of a really odd technicality. I honestly am not sure which takes precedence, it does seem like a major kick in the nads to the crazy few who built full armies when that codex dropped including Commissars and Valkyries only to be told they lose their regiment trait if they take them, especially considering the Stormtroopers start collecting box still comes with a commissar.
It's not covered in the FAQ, I just double-checked. Might be worth emailing in although I'm fairly sure GW has the FAQ mostly finished at this point.
Yeah that's what I meant Scions part didn't mention it. You can make that leap from next paragraph(ie about advisors etc). I was kinda worried somebody might argue that the part about scions above no regimental trait.
Well guess I'll double check on tournaments. Though I bought myself 5th scion kit to ensure I have 2 HQ's so I can field scion battallion(2 HQ, 2 command squad, 3 regular squads plus maybe taurox primes) without primaris psyker for 2nd HQ.
MrMoustaffa wrote: The real question is why would you, since deepstriking is like a transport with almost 0 downsides and almost guaranteed delivery, considering anything you can't deepstriking to hit probably wouldn't be able to be reached by mechanized infantry anyways.
Well there are two reasons for that:
1. I have so many deepstriking troops on my list that some need to be set up on the field.
2.Since to keep up with my army theme I want to keep my AM detachment scions only, I was considering selling my Chimera if there is no way I can really use it with them
As I understand the Tempestus is a regiment. The scions are just “named units” which are bound to Tempestus. Like Harker is set to be CATACHAN. Therefore if you play your regiment Tempestus I think it should be completely fine to set the regiment of the chimera or taurox to Tempestus.
Just like I’m doing when playing CATACHAN. The only exception is that if you play another regiment with a unit of Tempestus you’re not loosing the doctrine of your other regiment. But you don’t get the doctrine of Tempestus on top.
Or am I missing something?
Yep, you are. The FAQ specifically forbids giving custom regiments the same tag as existing ones to avoid that being a possibility (as well as stuff like ordering Ogryns with an Auxilla Officer)
Tyr13 wrote: Yep, you are. The FAQ specifically forbids giving custom regiments the same tag as existing ones to avoid that being a possibility (as well as stuff like ordering Ogryns with an Auxilla Officer)
Yes I know. But for example an chimera has the tag “regiment” which I am replacing by “CATACHAN”. CATACHAN is an existing regiment. So I could also label it as “Tempestus”. Or is there something else? I understand that a scion is always Tempestus and Harker is always CATACHAN. But a generic vehicle could be labelled as seems fit. Or is there no Tempestus flavour of vendettas, chimeras and all the cool stuff?
Tyr13 wrote: Yep, you are. The FAQ specifically forbids giving custom regiments the same tag as existing ones to avoid that being a possibility (as well as stuff like ordering Ogryns with an Auxilla Officer)
Yes I know. But for example an chimera has the tag “regiment” which I am replacing by “CATACHAN”. CATACHAN is an existing regiment. So I could also label it as “Tempestus”. Or is there something else? I understand that a scion is always Tempestus and Harker is always CATACHAN. But a generic vehicle could be labelled as seems fit. Or is there no Tempestus flavour of vendettas, chimeras and all the cool stuff?
That was exactly what the FAQ was addressing. You want Miliatrum Tempestus, you need to use a mix of Militarum Tempestus and Miliatrum Auxilleria. Use a Chimera and you lose the regimental benefit. This was to address people trying to insert conscripts and chimeras into MT formations in order to gain the regimental benefits with them.
I mean, if you get explodeing sixes, why would you ever take scions versus conscripts or standard infantry? More shots, more benefit.
ChargerIIC wrote: I mean, if you get explodeing sixes, why would you ever take scions versus conscripts or standard infantry?
If you want conscripts with exploding 6s you can take them. Make a custom regiment with the "storm troopers" doctrine. You won't get the MT relics or stratagems or any (hypothetical) special characters, but you do get your exploding 6s.
I've always wanted to try a "Stormtroopers" regiment for gaks and giggles but it just seems very lackluster compared to all the other good regiment traits we have. The one nice thing it has I guess is the fact that it works for everything, from a laspistol to a volcano cannon.
I thought we couldn't give "Stormtroopers" to generic IG units though? Seems like that's not intended in the least even though certain units like chimeras should definitely have the option.
MrMoustaffa wrote: I've always wanted to try a "Stormtroopers" regiment for gaks and giggles but it just seems very lackluster compared to all the other good regiment traits we have. The one nice thing it has I guess is the fact that it works for everything, from a laspistol to a volcano cannon.
I thought we couldn't give "Stormtroopers" to generic IG units though? Seems like that's not intended in the least even though certain units like chimeras should definitely have the option.
You can't give Militarum Tempestus to ordinary units. You can give a custom regiment with the Stormtroopers doctrine, though.
JNAProductions wrote: You can't give Militarum Tempestus to ordinary units. You can give a custom regiment with the Stormtroopers doctrine, though.
Exactly. When you make a custom regiment, which can be applied to any unit with the <REGIMENT> keyword, you can choose any doctrine you want to represent it. "Storm troopers" is a doctrine, separate from Militarius Trademarkus and the restrictions that apply to the MT keyword. Your custom regiment will have all units with the <REGIMENT> keyword generate extra hits on 6s, but will not have MT relics/stratagems/characters, will not count as MT for purposes of the "MT units don't invalidate having a pure regiment list" rule, etc.
MrMoustaffa wrote: I've always wanted to try a "Stormtroopers" regiment for gaks and giggles but it just seems very lackluster compared to all the other good regiment traits we have. The one nice thing it has I guess is the fact that it works for everything, from a laspistol to a volcano cannon.
I thought we couldn't give "Stormtroopers" to generic IG units though? Seems like that's not intended in the least even though certain units like chimeras should definitely have the option.
In addition to already given answers one difference is that while your infantry squad of "my awesome regiment" has the stormtrooper doctrine thus getting extra hits they don't for example count as Militarum Tempes....whatever spelling...for say tauros prime transport. You need to carry that squad around in regular tauros or chimera.
Same as I can make my regiment "Guardian of Neverland" that uses cadian doctrine. However it wouldn't be cadian and thus no Pask(albeit this would be stupid thus) or make marine chapter "Knights of Ultima" that uses ultramarine doctrine but wouldn't benefit from full Guilliman bonus(albeit why I would do that rather than use simply ultramarine keyword is another thing...)
I'll have 14 CP but I have been considering dropping the Vertus Praetors, sentinal auto cannons and the plasma sponsons for more bare bones russes in a spearhead.
Any thoughts and criticisms are more than welcome.
I have bunch of blood angels and dark angels. Thought maybe they could be of use as IG allies. I have more of blood angels though they are mostly various tactical/devastator/non-jump pack assault marines. Dark angels have some terminators and bikes. This unless I bring my 30k colour schemed blood angels along(they have cataphractii/tartaros terminators and vehicles as well).
Anything of particular use either of those would bring to IG?
ChargerIIC wrote: I mean, if you get explodeing sixes, why would you ever take scions versus conscripts or standard infantry?
If you want conscripts with exploding 6s you can take them. Make a custom regiment with the "storm troopers" doctrine. You won't get the MT relics or stratagems or any (hypothetical) special characters, but you do get your exploding 6s.
Oh yes thanks. That makes sense and after reading the codex a 100th time I found the text you mentioned. My fault.
How would you guys build a list going up against Raven Guard Space Marines with lots of lascannons and assault cannons? I have a friend who plays Guard and he gets beat every time, the -1 hit together with the re-rolls to hit just out shoot the guard.
Kuklops wrote: How would you guys build a list going up against Raven Guard Space Marines with lots of lascannons and assault cannons? I have a friend who plays Guard and he gets beat every time, the -1 hit together with the re-rolls to hit just out shoot the guard.
Get within 12 inches of him?
The -1 to hit is at 12 inches or further. It's not a permanent fixture.
Also, bring a couple of Psykers and fish for Nightshroud so you can give your more critical units the same -1 to hit.
The answer for Raven Guard is going to lie a little in regiment, playstyle and what platforms the heavy weapons are on. As some general advice:
If straight gunline go Cadian and use rerolls and Overlapping to eat an important unit each turn.
Use Rough Riders to charge the gunline and deny then shooting.
Tallarn Hellhounds can get close to autohit infantry and play bumper cars with vehicles. You can add in some infantry as well to charge things. Can the Raven Guard really kill 3 Hellhounds and a pile of conscripts without giving the rest of your army free reign?
Scout sentinels can get very close turn one forcing him to shoot them or be assaulted. If you get first turn or they are ignored you can get a charge or two off as well.
If the Guard are ok with souping you have options like Space Marine Scouts, jetbike Captain and Celestine that can get into combat quickly.
Assault cannons are relatively short ranged, use deployment zones that force him to move to get to you when possible.
Kuklops wrote: How would you guys build a list going up against Raven Guard Space Marines with lots of lascannons and assault cannons? I have a friend who plays Guard and he gets beat every time, the -1 hit together with the re-rolls to hit just out shoot the guard.
Is mass Scion still a viable list? I know they took a hit with the FAQ and the meta seems to have trended towards blobs and Character spam, but I have like 40-50 Scions and wonder if they still even work.
I think smarter players have just learned how easy it is to create a 9" screen around their important units (or their entire backfield if needed). Usually a few squads are good as they can fill in small gaps and get some good damage off, but if you take them in large numbers, the opponent will take note and do his best to limit drop sites.
Requizen wrote: Is mass Scion still a viable list? I know they took a hit with the FAQ and the meta seems to have trended towards blobs and Character spam, but I have like 40-50 Scions and wonder if they still even work.
They are a perfect support for your main force, whatever it will be, just don't expect them to live long. I have a full battalion of Tempestus and they usually do their work, that is to drop in the rapid range of their plasma weapons and wipe out some tough unit. They usually die immediately afterwards, so you should spend them for killing something really valuable.
I'll have 14 CP but I have been considering dropping the Vertus Praetors, sentinal auto cannons and the plasma sponsons for more bare bones russes in a spearhead.
Any thoughts and criticisms are more than welcome.
On the whole, you have pretty good units, I like the heavy support and custodes particularly. however, your ratios are a bit off, IMO. For starters, you have 5 CCs with only nine infantry squads, meaning you're overstaffed on orders turn one, even before your squads get mulched (and they will). I know you're paying some HQ taxes there, but don't count out the Primaris for smite. Second, I'm confused why all of your infantry squads have heavy weapons, unless you are trying to avoid Reaper in ITC. It's been my experience that you will lose your front 2-3 squads by turn 2. I run mine with just plasma gun.
I'm not sure what models you have, but you're also leaving one of the best cadian units on the table by not spamming mortar heavy weapon squads. A formation that I really like with cadians is a brigade plus a spearhead. If you turn that battalion into a spearhead, you can turn the infantry squads into mortar heavy weapon squads, or the more versatile mortar/mortar/lascannon heavy weapon squad.
It's probably not worth rebuilding models, but bolters are way better than bolt pistols for your officers.
Playing around in Battlescribe, here's what I came up with:
Cadia brigade=
HQ 3x CC w/ bolter
Troop
4x Infantry with plasma
2x Infantry with las/plas
Elite
2xAstropath=60
Tech priest=42
Fast attack
3xScout sentinals=141 (Auto Cannon)
Heavy support
3xLeman russ=540 (Executioner Plasma Cannon, Plasma Cannon Sponsons, Heavy Bolter)
2xManticore=286
Cadian Spearhead
HQ Primaris
Heavy
5x heavy weapon squads with mortar, Mortar, Lascannon
Currently having 8 infantry squads with 5 autocannons and 3 lascannons among them plus 3 missile launchers. Getting another box of heavy weapons which I'll be turning into 3 mortars and then 3 something else. But what? Enough autocannons especially since 8th ed made the choice into less than good choice. More lascannons or heavy bolters? Lascannons bit pricey and I already have 3. Do I use 6 often...Heavy bolters I don't yet have which is plus.
tneva82 wrote: More lascannons or heavy bolters? Lascannons bit pricey and I already have 3. Do I use 6 often...Heavy bolters I don't yet have which is plus.
I would choose only between HBs and Mortars. LCs are too expensive to be used on such fragile and low-morale platform as IG infantry, especially considering their crappy BS... HBs are more reliable and have a better chances to kill, while mortars can fire indirectly being deployed behind a LOS-blocking terrain or aiming at some invisible enemy. I like to mix them in infantry squads while going mortars-only in HWSs.
By the way you can assemble both HBs and mortars from HWS box because they use different stands. Just buy some 3-rd party bases and magnetise one of the infantrymen (spotter) and you will get 6 HWTs for the price of 3.
I'm confident about shadowsword and leman russ...but I can t grab objective (before I played scions full plasma but I decided to drop them because they are kill point and don't get objective)...I'm thinking about a big unit of Bullgryns to get objectives and try counter assault something (eventually dropping 1 leman russ and the techpriest)...any advice is appreciated!
On the whole, you have pretty good units, I like the heavy support and custodes particularly. however, your ratios are a bit off, IMO. For starters, you have 5 CCs with only nine infantry squads, meaning you're overstaffed on orders turn one, even before your squads get mulched (and they will). I know you're paying some HQ taxes there, but don't count out the Primaris for smite. Second, I'm confused why all of your infantry squads have heavy weapons, unless you are trying to avoid Reaper in ITC. It's been my experience that you will lose your front 2-3 squads by turn 2. I run mine with just plasma gun.
I'm not sure what models you have, but you're also leaving one of the best cadian units on the table by not spamming mortar heavy weapon squads. A formation that I really like with cadians is a brigade plus a spearhead. If you turn that battalion into a spearhead, you can turn the infantry squads into mortar heavy weapon squads, or the more versatile mortar/mortar/lascannon heavy weapon squad.
I can see your point with the Primaris which I can certainly do and yes your correct I'm trying to avoid Reaper and the idea was that even if they focused all their fire on my tanks I would still have some AT in more durable units than heavy weapons, I tend to find they get wiped off the field first turn but your suggestion of double mortars and lascannon might lower the amount of fire they suffer. Another point was I'm trying to keep my army size from being too large since the tournament is only 9-5 for 3 games including briefing and lunch. Wouldn't I be better off putting 3 HWT in the brigade and putting my Leman russes in the spearhead so they gain Obsec?
Also has anybody used Vertus Praetors before? Any tips on how they should be used and how well they synergies with gun-line guard? My plan was to use them to capture distant objectives as well as counter charge/backfield harassers if I get the chance.
I'm confident about shadowsword and leman russ...but I can t grab objective (before I played scions full plasma but I decided to drop them because they are kill point and don't get objective)...I'm thinking about a big unit of Bullgryns to get objectives and try counter assault something (eventually dropping 1 leman russ and the techpriest)...any advice is appreciated!
Hi fellow guardsmen,
I know how you feel. The Scions are definetly a haevy punsh for every guard army. I’ve not got an answer but I’ll try to tell you how I run my list of catachan.
Basically I think there is no point in the tank commander heavy lists. For me the hull lascannons don’t do neither. I usually pair a tank commander with a normal buddy tank with no sponsons to save the points. So they could crawl up the field and use their grinding advance. Just on an executioner I go full plasma, so it will be the fire magnet for the first turns. He is backed up with strike an shroud as well as a Psykers.
In the front I usually pair scout sentinels with flamers to get board control bevor the first round and to gram midfield objektives at the start. They are backuped by hellhound. So my opponen need to clear the objectives of the sentinels and my hellhounds can park on them afterward.
Behind this pairs come my already mentioned battle tanks. Tend to take two to three of each pair of these.
My Infanterie is coming behind and at the flanks. I use to put the mortars in there instead of a heavy weapon team. They grab objectives in late game where my tank has speeded ahead and secure the flanks. For every two squads I put behind one officer.
For backfield I use artillery. Manticore and basilisk as well as hydra. They are the needed firepower and heavy hitters. They shine every game.
The key are also some aura Charakters as the ordinance officer as well as sgt harker. I think this is the role you assigned your Shadowsword. But if the opponent have no super heavy I think the artillery parking lot does the job a lot better.
Some gimmicks like cyclops demo vehicles, Sentry guns, quad guns or an vendetta with dropping command squads I put eventually in are nice but they are not gamechanging in my opinion.
metageme in my shop is reach of vehicles and fatty pieces so shadowsword is insane also vs infantry with 30 heavy bolter shots
i use cadian regiment couse there is a lot of chaos and i can get the relic
tank commander can stay still and use order for rerolling d6 on turret (maybe lascannon can be dropped for saving points)
infantries and sentinels die in the first or at second turn so I can t grab objectives
I don't like artillery so much
) would allow factions to be in the same army while the "smaller" faction keyword would be the one effected by the ratios. It would seem a pity to lose our ability to take assassins and inquisitors. Also the removal of "soup" would be far more damaging to chaos. I'm just spit balling here mind.
