I'm looking at going to a 1k patrol only no FW no allies tournament in February. How do you all feel about hellhounds at that point level? This is what I'm thinking about taking:
I just can't help myself...auto hitting turrets and they move normally to the last wound?! Would I be better served with 2 LR punishers with hb, hb, hb? That was my other list minus some screening dudes.
I'd probably take infantry squads over conscripts at that level but Iike the general gist of the list at least. Remember conscripts cost the same as guardsmen now so if bring as many; infantry squads as you could and maybe some SWS's and platoon commanders to help them out. Ironically this is one of the few situations platoon commanders are really useful.
Also you cannot legally take a conscript unit under 20 men, so your list is illegal as it sits. I took your list and just made a straight swap for three plasma/LC infantry squads and almost had enough points for a platoon commander as well, so you could look into that
Not the most competitive but should be fun. Note however that conscripts are minimum squad size 20. Valhallan will help with losses a bit but you might want to upgrade one of your tanks to a Commissar tank to keep them around a bit longer. That'll cost you 2cp.
MrMoustaffa wrote: I'd probably take infantry squads over conscripts at that level but Iike the general gist of the list at least. Remember conscripts cost the same as guardsmen now so if bring as many; infantry squads as you could and maybe some SWS's and platoon commanders to help them out. Ironically this is one of the few situations platoon commanders are really useful.
Also you cannot legally take a conscript unit under 20 men, so your list is illegal as it sits. I took your list and just made a straight swap for three plasma/LC infantry squads and almost had enough points for a platoon commander as well, so you could look into that
Well that's what you get for using excel to make your lists :( My thoughts around conscripts vs infantry squad in this list was that conscripts would be strictly meat shields for the two russes. Basically I just wanted a lot of bodies to take some hits and prevent the russes from getting locked up from assaults. I've run into that issue before with my tank heavy lists and it's really hard to avoid on smaller boards. In one game I had a rhino tie up two of my conquerors (granted he rolled box cars on his charge which helped a lot but still...).
BTW, I thought this was a competitive list...lol. So what would constitute a tac list at 1k + patrol? Not knowing anything about amount of terrain or missions...
BTW, I thought this was a competitive list...lol. So what would constitute a tac list at 1k + patrol? Not knowing anything about amount of terrain or missions...
It is fairly competitive, I'd probably go for a Brigade at anything above 750pts personally. There's swings and roundabouts to tanks. You might be better just going all-tank at 1k because that way you'll always have someone free to blast melee attackers that you fell back from. Yes you will get tagged, but if you have plenty of reserve firepower that will help you out of that pickle.
Or, take some flamer sws' and use the valhallan order to just burninate those swines that tagged you
Here's a 1K valhallan brigade I've come up with, it's also not 100% competitive but there's 7 lascannons, 8 plasma guns and a lot of troops to take orders, strategems, and capture objectives, with a gunisher vulture for added anti-personnel to complement the 57 lasguns. 11 CP's and access to psychic powers also gives me lots of ways to boost those infantry squads.
HQ:
3 Company Commanders: 1st with grand strategist, 2nd with a bolt pistol upgraded to Pietrov's Mk 45, 3rd with Kurov's Aquila
Troops:
6 infantry squads, each with a plasma gun
Elites:
3 astropaths
Fast Attack:
1 unit of 5 rough riders with 2 plasma guns
2 Tauros Venators with twin lascannon
Heavy:
3 heavy weapon squads, each with a lascannon and 2 mortars
Flyer:
Punisher Vulture.
necron99 wrote: My thoughts around conscripts vs infantry squad in this list was that conscripts would be strictly meat shields for the two russes.
Might want to check the CA changes to conscripts. They now cost the same points per model as regular infantry squads, except they're inferior in every way (including their value at taking up space in front of tanks). There's literally no reason to ever take conscripts again, pretend the page is now deleted from your codex.
necron99 wrote: My thoughts around conscripts vs infantry squad in this list was that conscripts would be strictly meat shields for the two russes.
Might want to check the CA changes to conscripts. They now cost the same points per model as regular infantry squads, except they're inferior in every way (including their value at taking up space in front of tanks). There's literally no reason to ever take conscripts again, pretend the page is now deleted from your codex.
Hyberbole is strong, I will acknowledge.
The few reasons you could take conscripts over infantry squads is the squad size and the efficiency of scale. In fact that is the only reason!
necron99 wrote: My thoughts around conscripts vs infantry squad in this list was that conscripts would be strictly meat shields for the two russes.
Might want to check the CA changes to conscripts. They now cost the same points per model as regular infantry squads, except they're inferior in every way (including their value at taking up space in front of tanks). There's literally no reason to ever take conscripts again, pretend the page is now deleted from your codex.
Hyberbole is strong, I will acknowledge.
The few reasons you could take conscripts over infantry squads is the squad size and the efficiency of scale. In fact that is the only reason!
BTW, I thought this was a competitive list...lol. So what would constitute a tac list at 1k + patrol? Not knowing anything about amount of terrain or missions...
It is fairly competitive, I'd probably go for a Brigade at anything above 750pts personally. There's swings and roundabouts to tanks. You might be better just going all-tank at 1k because that way you'll always have someone free to blast melee attackers that you fell back from. Yes you will get tagged, but if you have plenty of reserve firepower that will help you out of that pickle.
Or, take some flamer sws' and use the valhallan order to just burninate those swines that tagged you
Here's a 1K valhallan brigade I've come up with, it's also not 100% competitive but there's 7 lascannons, 8 plasma guns and a lot of troops to take orders, strategems, and capture objectives, with a gunisher vulture for added anti-personnel to complement the 57 lasguns. 11 CP's and access to psychic powers also gives me lots of ways to boost those infantry squads.
HQ:
3 Company Commanders: 1st with grand strategist, 2nd with a bolt pistol upgraded to Pietrov's Mk 45, 3rd with Kurov's Aquila
Troops:
6 infantry squads, each with a plasma gun
Elites:
3 astropaths
Fast Attack:
1 unit of 5 rough riders with 2 plasma guns
2 Tauros Venators with twin lascannon
Heavy:
3 heavy weapon squads, each with a lascannon and 2 mortars
Flyer:
Punisher Vulture.
Thanks for your input Captain Roderick - it's greatly appreciated. I agree a battalion would be better but I'm restricted to a single patrol with no allies or FW. Still it's kind of fun to see what IG can do.
Oh dang you're that dude! Sorry should have checked your username before posting.
Given what your have to work with then, switch to infantry squads with specials and you'll be grand.
Also as valhallans you'll get much less use out of track guards on the hellhounds. You have to be down to 2 wounds for them to kick in at all. You can use those points cunningly elsewhere I'm sure :-)
necron99 wrote: My thoughts around conscripts vs infantry squad in this list was that conscripts would be strictly meat shields for the two russes.
Might want to check the CA changes to conscripts. They now cost the same points per model as regular infantry squads, except they're inferior in every way (including their value at taking up space in front of tanks). There's literally no reason to ever take conscripts again, pretend the page is now deleted from your codex.
Hyberbole is strong, I will acknowledge.
The few reasons you could take conscripts over infantry squads is the squad size and the efficiency of scale. In fact that is the only reason!
Conscripts only pass orders 50% of the time, so they’re no longer efficient. Do not take conscripts. They are a trap option.
How do you guys handle morale for infantry squads? Seems to me like outside of an order a squad of 10 guardsmen will get blown off the table pretty easily.
Billagio wrote: How do you guys handle morale for infantry squads? Seems to me like outside of an order a squad of 10 guardsmen will get blown off the table pretty easily.
I find that I rarely have to even take morale checks for them because usually they just die to the man anyways.
Billagio wrote: How do you guys handle morale for infantry squads? Seems to me like outside of an order a squad of 10 guardsmen will get blown off the table pretty easily.
I find that I rarely have to even take morale checks for them because usually they just die to the man anyways.
Figured, so if im running a russ heavy list, bog standard guardsmen are still going to be pretty good to make up the rest of my forces?
Billagio wrote: How do you guys handle morale for infantry squads? Seems to me like outside of an order a squad of 10 guardsmen will get blown off the table pretty easily.
I find that I rarely have to even take morale checks for them because usually they just die to the man anyways.
Figured, so if im running a russ heavy list, bog standard guardsmen are still going to be pretty good to make up the rest of my forces?
Absolutely! Somebody has to eat the charges, claim objectives and screen. They are so cost effective they pay for themselves by just showing up and getting shot.
Billagio wrote: How do you guys handle morale for infantry squads? Seems to me like outside of an order a squad of 10 guardsmen will get blown off the table pretty easily.
I find that I rarely have to even take morale checks for them because usually they just die to the man anyways.
Figured, so if im running a russ heavy list, bog standard guardsmen are still going to be pretty good to make up the rest of my forces?
Absolutely! Somebody has to eat the charges, claim objectives and screen. They are so cost effective they pay for themselves by just showing up and getting shot.
Do you need anything else besides company commanders to buff them? My list is currently consisting of LR Conquerors, a manticore, 2x HWT 2x CC and a bunch of standard guardsmen. Not trying to be super competitive, just with friends
I run Catachan and I usually toss a command squad with a standard in there if I'm not bring as WAAC as I can get. Then the core of my defense usually gets 9 leadership. Which is very good for guardsmen.
It's not hyperbole, it's truth. Conscripts do not exist anymore.
The few reasons you could take conscripts over infantry squads is the squad size and the efficiency of scale. In fact that is the only reason!
Except, between the orders nerf and the weaker stat line, you have to over-invest in buffing your larger squad just to bring them up to the level that basic infantry squads get with no buffs. For example, giving conscripts FRFSRF averages out to a 50% increase in firepower (100% improvement x 50% failure rate), while the basic stat line of an infantry squad is 50% more firepower by default at the same cost per model. No matter how efficient the larger squad size is at applying FRFSRF to more models you're still paying a non-zero amount of points per model to match what the alternative unit gets for zero points. The few situations where you could possibly gain any kind of efficiency of scale compared to regular guardsmen are such rare edge cases that they aren't worth considering.
Yeah, conscripts really serve no specific purpose in competitive lists.
You could argue for valhallans with the blam pistol, but even then it's an exercise in trying to make them work, not in them being the best tool for the job.
Guard still have the best chaff in the game. 40 points buys you 10 men, and 52 points gets you ten men with a plasma gun and plasma pistol. Hell, if you run catachans you can rock S4 power swords for dirt cheap.
It's not hyperbole, it's truth. Conscripts do not exist anymore.
The few reasons you could take conscripts over infantry squads is the squad size and the efficiency of scale. In fact that is the only reason!
Except, between the orders nerf and the weaker stat line, you have to over-invest in buffing your larger squad just to bring them up to the level that basic infantry squads get with no buffs. For example, giving conscripts FRFSRF averages out to a 50% increase in firepower (100% improvement x 50% failure rate), while the basic stat line of an infantry squad is 50% more firepower by default at the same cost per model. No matter how efficient the larger squad size is at applying FRFSRF to more models you're still paying a non-zero amount of points per model to match what the alternative unit gets for zero points. The few situations where you could possibly gain any kind of efficiency of scale compared to regular guardsmen are such rare edge cases that they aren't worth considering.
The range in which they work (as before) is much more narrow and I agree infantry squads are going to be better in most cases.
However certain things still work, aren't reliant on orders and don't require the use of command points. A 30-strong squad, kept in line by the pistol & with non-order buffing,
However however, whilst the above is good I do fully agree it is no longer the best. But to call it worthless is hyperbole.
Someone tell me how to do pure Tempestus Scions. Is it just airdrop troops with plasma guns whilst empty taurox primes drive around? Because that sounds fun but expensive, what with each troop box coming with only one plasma gun (anyone know where I can get more?)
C4790M wrote: Someone tell me how to do pure Tempestus Scions. Is it just airdrop troops with plasma guns whilst empty taurox primes drive around? Because that sounds fun but expensive, what with each troop box coming with only one plasma gun (anyone know where I can get more?)
You can buy a box of 5 resin plasma guns from GW. They're intended for space marines, but work fine with guard or scions with a bit of converting. I use the grenade launcher or flamethrower hand.
First off, there's no reason, other than personal choice, to do a straight army of Scions. They work perfectly fine in their own detachment with another detachment of straight guard (and that's how they work best in my opinion).
So for my money, scions have two very strong setups.
1. Plasma command squads, with 4 plasma guns. These guys drop in, double fire, and then are most likely killed on their resulting turn. They cost 88 points, and they do 8 shots of str 8 D2, AP-3 on a BS3+. its hard NOT making your points back with good target selection. Your MT regiment tactic will benefit these guys well.
2. Full 10 man squad of scions with 4 hot shot volley guns, accompanied by a Tempestor Prime. These things make Marines jealous. 24" range with 4 S4 AP-2 D1 shots. These guys are the ones that get orders as well typically. I drop them into a strong point and they hold the line. You're cranking out 24 shots, rerolling 1s with orders, and while you're probably not usually shooting many vehicles and monsters with them, their strength 4 means they're wounding on a rerolling 5+ for anything under T8. Not bad at all really. Yeah they're BS4+ if you move, but try not to move much. I like running them in a pair with one Tempestor Prime. That works out to 293 points for the whole group. And it puts out a serious amount of pain.
Less strong setups:
3. All HSLG squad, preferably ten men with Tempestor Prime for orders.This setup is not as strong mathmetcally in my opinion. Scions lack of range means you're going to have a tough time using that rapid fire, which really weakens them. This setup is best when riding in a Taurox or Valkyrie.
4. Melta Command squad. This one is hard to use because of Melta's short range. Again, need a Taurox or a Valkyrie to get you into the right position, but it is an assault weapon which can also lead to some interesting options.
Grenade launchers are trash. Flamers are so situational you'll never get to use them. Same with all the command squad upgrades. You're just not likely going to be in a position where they will do any work for you. Taurox Primes are decent vehicles. But they should be either long range fire support (as half assed LRBTs basically), or they should charge up the field to recover any survivors from the dropped in scions. I really think investing in an LRBT is better than using a Taurox Prime with the battle cannon, its not that much more and it does a hell of a lot more work. But a gatling gun taurox prime with volley guns is a decent vehicle and can drive up and provide medium range fire support to the drop scions, and give you the option of pulling them out and relocating mid game.
Now the best thing to support scions with is drops. Bring at least as many IG squad in a second detachment, so that all your scions can drop in. You're paying 2 points per scion for that grav chute deployment, don't let it go to waste. IG squads are cheap, but make sure you bring a Company Commander along for each pair, because he is a huge force multiplier for a very cheap cost. He also makes a better warlord than your Tempestor Prime, who will probably be too easily killed by your opponent.
As far as modeling goes, my preference is to make a HSVG and a Plasma gun with every box. When I started I bought two Start Collecting kits right off the bat, and then four more boxes of 5 each. That gave me 40 scions.
I suggest making:
8 Plasma Guns
8 HSVGs
4 Sergeants (with chainsword and Plasma)
18 HSLGs.
2 Tempestor Primes with Command Rods and whatever weapon you want. I also converted one of the Commissars into a Tempestor Prime for fun.
This makes a nice little 3CP detachment, around 600 points.
HQ:
Tempestor Prime Command Rod
Tempestor Prime Command Rod
Troops:
Militarum Tempestus Scions, 1 Tempestor, 5 Scions, 4 HSVG
Militarum Tempestus Scions, 1 Tempestor, 5 Scions, 4 HSVG
Militarum Tempestus Scions, 1 Tempestor, 9 Scions
Elite:
Militarum Tempestus Command Squad 4 Plasma Gunners
Militarum Tempestus Command Squad 4 Plasma Gunners
If you're playing at 1000 points, that leaves you with 400 points to make another 3 CP detachment of normal IG and get at least 7 drops into it. Which is a breeze with IG. I recommend a mix of mortars Heavy Weapon Squads and Bare bones Infantry squads with a couple officers to support them. Or throw in a vanguard detachment with a LBRT and some infantry to bubble wrap it. Basilisks are another good option.
Drop the HSLG squad and fiddle with the point spread to get this in under 500 points for small games. Your HSVG squads will deploy with one Prime to hold your deployment zone, and your other prime will drop in and wreck face with two plasma gun squads before going out in a blaze of glory. Your opponent will likely be salty.
necron99 wrote: My thoughts around conscripts vs infantry squad in this list was that conscripts would be strictly meat shields for the two russes.
Might want to check the CA changes to conscripts. They now cost the same points per model as regular infantry squads, except they're inferior in every way (including their value at taking up space in front of tanks). There's literally no reason to ever take conscripts again, pretend the page is now deleted from your codex.
Hyberbole is strong, I will acknowledge.
The few reasons you could take conscripts over infantry squads is the squad size and the efficiency of scale. In fact that is the only reason!
Larger squad size is more of HINDRANCE. More casualties to morale, harder to move around. 2 squads of 10 is more durable than 1 squad of 20 even with 2 identical units and conscripts have worse LD=even less durable. And efficiency of scale? For what? Orders? 4+ success rate nullifies that right away.
It's not hyperbole when it's 100% true. You pay same points for what's better unit in every way. Funny you even try to claim bigger squad size as a bonus when it's actually WEAKNESS for the unit. You would be better off with 2x10 conscripts than 20 conscripts if you could! (in IG player's dream world he would take 20x1 conscript squads. The smaller the better)
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Absolutely! Somebody has to eat the charges, claim objectives and screen. They are so cost effective they pay for themselves by just showing up and getting shot.
Straight from the Astra Militarum Officer's Handbook, that is.
Razerous wrote: However certain things still work, aren't reliant on orders and don't require the use of command points. A 30-strong squad, kept in line by the pistol & with non-order buffing,
However however, whilst the above is good I do fully agree it is no longer the best. But to call it worthless is hyperbole.
Well, let's examine that. There's no reason to be vague, what we're talking about is using buffs to saves and morale, probably with Psychic Barrier and Take Cover, followed by either Mental Fortitude, the valhallan pistol, or a Insane Bravery. You end up with 30 3+ save fearless models, which is admittedly better than 10 3+ fearless models.
However... all of those buffs (except the pistol, which is an aura) are single use per turn. Putting Psychic barrier on conscripts means that your tanks (for which the conscripts are likely bubblewrapping) don't get it. Take Cover is more slanted to infantry, so conscripts do get more mileage out of it.
I think that this whole debate forgets that you can combine two squads a turn with a CP. To me, that shifts the debate sharply, because now instead of comparing 30 man conscripts to 10 man squads, you're looking at 20 man squads. Of course, you can't combine prior to an alpha strike, but you also can't use psychic barrier.
Conscripts have been nerfed of any really viable offense, and so only really exist to be chaff. Properly supported, they are better chaff than infantry squads, but cost way more, as you need two characters to buff them, either with pyschic powers or the pistol. So for 180 points you have a fearless, 4+ save 30 man mob... or only a few points more you could run 3 infantry squads with plasma gun/plasma pistol and a company commander, get basically the same chaff abilities, but also do work?
The tragedy of this conversation is that there are actually really good units that could use the buffs you want to throw on conscripts. For example, Bullgryn under psychic barrier have a 1+/3++ with T5, and so can tank whatever the enemy throws at them. While more expensive and not troops, if you want to tool up some infantry, I'd start there, not with conscripts.
So the holidays have been crazy, but I saw some talk of superheavy detachments and what I have been running is roughly along the lines of the following, with minor changes because the variants are all different prices:
3x Baneblades/Stormswords/Banehammers/whathaveyou
1 Battalion of Imperial Guard (30 men, 2 officers) for screens
1 Battalion of Skitarii (15 men, 2 Tech-priests) for screens and Psychic Defense with the Graia forge world.
With the Graia relic and access to Mechanicus warlord traits and stratagems, this nets me a repair roll of 4-8 restored wounds per turn on one of my superheavy tanks, 13 Command Points while having 3 Superheavy Tanks, and outright nasty psychic defense (4+ to deny any one power of my choosing automatically regardless of how well they cast it).
C4790M wrote: Someone tell me how to do pure Tempestus Scions. Is it just airdrop troops with plasma guns whilst empty taurox primes drive around? Because that sounds fun but expensive, what with each troop box coming with only one plasma gun (anyone know where I can get more?)
Very detailed comprehensive analysis
Thanks so much for the write-up! I'm definitely going to be picking up a Start Collecting box or three, along with a set of plasma guns.
Is there anywhere I can read up on heavy weapon teams? I am adding some genestealer cults to my nid army. I might support them with some astra militarum, but I do not know enough about them. My tyranids brings venom cannons and impaler cannons. The cult brings hammer abbrrants. I don't know what AM can bring. The army is very saturated in infantery, I feel a tank would be shot of the table turn 1.
For heavy weapon teams there are two popular choices: Lascannon teams in sets of three (for cheap disposable firepower) and mortar teams for some light anti-infantry work that doesn't need LOS
Niiai wrote: Is there anywhere I can read up on heavy weapon teams? I am adding some genestealer cults to my nid army. I might support them with some astra militarum, but I do not know enough about them. My tyranids brings venom cannons and impaler cannons. The cult brings hammer abbrrants. I don't know what AM can bring. The army is very saturated in infantery, I feel a tank would be shot of the table turn 1.
Heavy Weapons
The humble mortar really benefited from the changes in 8th edition, with it's prior small blast marker exchanged for d6 shots, which helps from both a gameplay and logistical perspective, and rolling all of those dumb little markers took forever. The mortar is still pillowfisted, averaging just under two S4 hits a turn, which aren't going to turn the tide. At five points, with 48” range and no need for line of sight, it's a fun option for heavy weapon squads (seriously, 33 points for 3d6 shots a turn). I suppose very front line squads that are built to take a charge might go for mortars over the heavy bolter, but for a few points more I like the 3+ to wound T4 and the AP1. With ITC rules, the ability to shoot out of LOS is huge, and the cheapness allows them to fill out a spearhead, flank lascannons in a Las/Mortar/Mortar heavy weapon team, and generally overpunch their points. They dont' do a lot, but they cost even less.
Speaking of the other anti-infantry heavy weapon, the heavy bolter also loves it some 8th edition, most notably gaining AP1, which means it does some work even against marines. As always, it doesn't really get enough shots to clear hordes, it isn't accurate or strong enough to damage anything tough, and while cheap, that only really helps on heavy weapon squads and vehicles. The reality of 8th edition, with first turn charges and plenty of movement, is that your front line is going to get mulched. Keep 'em cheap, and the heavy bolter has the range and ability to meaningfully threaten enough units to make it a good choice. On vehicles, I'd remember that moving give them a -1 to hit, which means one S5, AP1 hit per heavy bolter on the move. How valuable that is to you is going to correlate strongly with how many heavy bolter sponsons you'll be strapping on all over the place. In short, the Heavy Bolter is the cheapest weapon for a direct fire squad, and is great in heavy weapon squads (42pts for 9 shots!) and pretty decent in screening infantry squads. Tallarn doctrine vehicles love them!
The Autocannon continues it's nearly 20 year run as the AM (formerly IG) weapon with the most convoluted ideal target. It's tough to really tell what the Autocannon is good at. It has a long range, S7, AP1, and Damage 2, all with two shots. Against Rhinos (or other T7, 3+ save models) it does a half damage per turn (½ to hit, ½ to wound, ½ to save with AP1, two shots, two damage per hit. That's respectable, but the lascannon averages nearly a full wound a turn (½ to hit, 2/3 to wound, 5/6 failed saves, d6 damage for 3.5 on average. Against higher toughness or better saves, the lascannon continues to pull away. Against two wound bikes, the autocannon does better, and since damage cannot spill over, the autocannon has a chance to kill two bikes. (It's 1/36, but still). One of the best targets, somewhat ironically, are IG weapon bases, which the Autocannon wounds on a 2+ and instant kills. Other good targets are multiwound models with only invulnerable saves, or low saves such as Ork Nobs. If the lascannon is going to bounce anyway, the autocannon (doing two damage with two shots) will average more wounds than the lascannon. The basic autocannon competes directly with the lascannon in most applications, but with the CA drop to 12 points per, you can justify these for their ideal targets. My thought is to run three in a HWS for 54pts. Don't go nuts, but there are enough two wound models, and models with high T and a good invulberalbe save, to justify the AC.
The Missile Launcher is back with a pretty decent dual shot option. The frag missile is a standard d6 S4 shots, while Krak is S8, Ap2, and d6 Damage. So, it's either an expensive direct fire mortar, or a poor man's lascannon. At 20 points it's the same price as an actual lascannon, which is notably superior against enemy armor. Mathhammer says as much, but so does watching enemy tanks bounce Krak Missiles on 5+ saves, or failing to wound a superheavy on a 4+. The real problem with dual purpose weapons for the AM is that we can bring so darn many. When you can easily drop a dozen heavy weapons, take a few of each specialist, instead of generalists. Instead of four missile Launchers, you can take two lascannons and two heavy bolters, and have more effective weapons. Still, in smaller games, the missile launcher isn't the worst option in an infantry squad, but even if I'm playing a big enough game that I want to use my Missile Launchers, I'd rather rep them as lascannons!
The lascannon got a fantastic boost in 8th edition, keeping it's S9 and going to AP3, but gaining d6 Damage. This is your long range heavy killer. It wounds even landraiders on a 3+, and turns a 3+ save into a 6+. It's damage is swingy but is a great place for a command die re-roll. Especially now that split fire allows you to shoot the lascannon independently of the lasguns, basic infantry squads with a big gun are even better. At Bs4+, you'll need more lascannons to destroy a tank than you think, but no gun that's widely available does it better. HWS with triple lascannons are a bit pricey and fragile, and will attract a lot of attention, but really do threaten any non-super heavy model. At least until the meta shifts hard to hordes, the lascannon is going to be the go-to heavy weapon in the armory.
While not available to heavy weapon teams, the heavy flamer is a big part of the AM list, as an option for nearly every vehicle, and also as an add-on to veterans and command. Even more than the basic flamer, the heavy flamer was very conservatively priced. At 17 points, it rates between an autocannon and the Lascannon, and believe it or not, it's worth it. As before, the AM actually benefit a lot from the changes, both while shooting and being shot. Previously, the heavy flamer was wickedly effective against IG, wounding on 2s with no save or cover. Now? Wounding on 3s, while still giving up a 6+ save. On offense, the heavy flamer gains AP1, making it do pretty decent work against anything without a 2+ save. Really, the heavy flamers damage output doesn't along justify the price, but rather the ability to always hit. Compared to a single heavy bolter hit (when moving), heavy flamers do d6 while in range, and with 10” moves on most tanks, that's a big threat range. I'll be talking about the weapon in more detail in the individual units that excel with them, but the existence of the heavy flamer puts pressure on all other mid range shooting.
The multi-melta shows up in two major applications: as a pair of sponsons on the Leman Russ Chassis, or as a hull weapon on the hellhound chassis. It's pretty much exactly what you'd expect, a meltagun with 24” range, that rolls two dice, pick the highest, for damage within half range. In general, it suffers from wanting to move to get a good shot, but then being a 5+ to hit. At 20pts per, it's the same cost as a lascannon for nearly the same damage output (-1 strength, but an extra AP) with half the range. I think I'd generally stick with lascannons where I can, and avoid expensive upgrades of already pricy base models.
The plasma cannon shows up in two places: the armored sentinel, and the sponsons of the leman russ. The cannon is just a giant plasma gun, with 36” range, and heavy d3, and the same option to overcharge. A roll of one will straight up destroy the sentinel, while leman russes have a rule that instead they just take six mortal wounds, and the model cannot fire any plasma cannon again that game. So... don't supercharge unless you're comfortable with tank losing half it's wounds and firepower about 30% of the time. Even in basic mode, the plasma cannon is a fine weapon, with the usual caveats about not moving. Still... plasma is widely and readily available in the troops slot, and I'm not sure I'd pay such a large premium for a bit of range trading rapid fire 1 for heavy d3.
Finally, of the common weapons, the multilaser is last, and unfortunately, the least. No weapon class took a bigger hit in 8th than mid strength weapons with lousy AP, and the multilaser is the lousiest of the bunch. Literally unchanged from prior editions, the multilaser has no AP, no damage multiplier, and only three shots. With the new wound charts, they don't even wound marines on 2+s anymore. If very cheap, such as five points, or even free bundled with the vehicle chassis, the mutli-laser would be wimpy but fine, especially since two of it's primary mounts are transports. Instead, it's more than a heavy bolter, despite being clealry inferior. A weapon that struggled to accomplish much in the past will now face a world with no AV10 targets and a -1 to hit if the model moves (which transports will!). It was a good run, multi-laser, but all things must end!
I played two ITC 1650 points games over xmas with a pure IG army (1 x battalion of Catachan, 1 x vanguard of MT and 1x Spearhead of Cadian) against a Raven wing and Cadian army. If I have time/am super bored at work I'll post a more in depth analysis in the battle report section but for now the following stood out to me.
The MT vanguard detachment consisting of A Tempestor prime , MT plasma command squad, two astro paths and a Taurox Prime meant I got to use the MT doctrine of extra shots on 6s. I dropped the Prime (with a plasma pistol and NO command rod) with the command squad to reroll 1s. With the price hike on plasma guns these guys looked a little less appealing but with the extra shots on 6s these guys are totally worth taking. Also because the Tempestor prime was deployed behind the command squad it meant he couldn't be targeted until the entire squad was killed. Putting him 2" behind the 4 man command squad meant that he heroically intervened when the last plasma gunner was charged (the command squad took out a rhino in one round of shooting making them a "must wipe out"badge)and with a 4+ armour save he tied up the assaulting infantry squad for quite a while. I didn't need a command rod as he was only giving orders to the one squad but people should make sure the equip a chainsword and plasma pistol to give him that extra attack. I'm considering giving him a plasma sword in future as he did so well in that combat.
The Cadian Vanguard detachment consisting of Paskisher, a mortar HWT, a Heavy Bolter HWT and LRBT with punisher was replaced by a supreme command with Pask and two TC all with punisher and hull mounted lascannons to great effect. The ability to order each other combined with the Cadian "overlapping fields of fire" ripped through everything from Ogryns to chimeras to MEQs. I made the mistake of deploying them on one flank rather than in the centre which meant the 24" punisher couldn't reach things but other than that they performed admirably.Every turn they advanced 4.9" and pumped out 120 S5 (40 hitting on 2+ reroll 1s, 80 hitting on 3+ reroll 1s with one turn with all 120 shots hitting on 2+ thanks to overlapping fields of fire) I used the two astropaths to give -1 to hitand +1 armour save to pask. The only thing that kind of stood up to them for one turn were the ogryns with 2+ armour saves although the 4++ Ogryns were shredded easily. In tournaments the fact all the TC are characters means I can equip the relic of cadia to one of them if I come up against Chaos.
Catachan Infantry supported by a priest and straken were scary IF they charged. I found infantry as a whole was best used to charge into combat, tie up a unit then fall back the next turn and allow either artillery or pask to rip into the poor dudes hanging out in the open. Straken is beast in cc.
Catachan manticores supported by harker are pretty good but after they've fired off their 4th and last missile they're pretty useless. Seeing as ITC goes for 6 rounds and there has been a price hike I'm tempted to switch to basilisks...
I have to mention that I actually lost the first game by only 1 point when I foolishly used straken to fire his plasma pistol at a severly damaged chimera only 2" away from himself. Naturally it blew up and took him with it, gifting my opponent 1 point for killing a HQ and losing me another for no longer controlling a board quarter. Hilarious way to lose but overall I found the ITC rules combined with 8th edition excellently balanced.
You could probably do something pretty interesting with a catachan brigade:
Straken
5x Company Commander w/ plasma pistol & power fist
6 infantry squads with plasma gun and power sword
Harker
2x Priests
5x Ogryn Bodyguard
3x Scout Sentinels with heavy flamers
3x Mortar HWS
At that point, I'd run a supreme command with Roboute and a mix of assassins and just be that guy.
oh yeah .... you could use vanguard detatchments and go 6x platoon commander and 2 Company commander wtih powerfists for 280 points per detachment then fill with priests and ogryns.
I have just received my codex, and I'm now writting an armoured company list. I'm interested in hearing about executioner leman russes with plasma sponsons: 2d6 (1d6 shots twice) + 2d3 shots of overheated plasma seem quite good !
With the reroll order and the tallarn doctrine for the sponsons (I have already decided my doctrine will be tallarn).
The punisher seems pretty good too, killing about 15 gaunts/orks a turn with heavy bolters sponsons.
Punishers put out an unbelievable amount of S5 shots. Using the tallarn ambush ability you can infiltrate a unit of 3 LRBT into the 24"range. Normally I steer away from side sponsons but if you ambushed those tanks within 9" then sponson multimeltas would kick ass.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On a completely different note I'm looking at converting some Ogre models into Ogryns but I'm missing heads on them (I previously wanted to convert them to Nobz but I'm in the Guard now son) Every model in my army has a gas mask of some type so I was wondering if anyone knew of a gas mask head sprue ogryn sized.
I'm positive this has been answered before, but what's the current thought on putting sponsons on a Battle Cannon Russ?
Or for that matter, sponsons in general? I'm leaning towards keeping it cheap, and having more models/bodies on the table, but figured I'd poll you all first.
ajax_xaja wrote: I'm positive this has been answered before, but what's the current thought on putting sponsons on a Battle Cannon Russ?
Or for that matter, sponsons in general? I'm leaning towards keeping it cheap, and having more models/bodies on the table, but figured I'd poll you all first.
I used to be for sponsors, but now I'm all about keeping them cheap. I rarely even upgrade the hull gun to Lascannons anymore except on tank commanders due to the relative rarity of BS3 Lascannons.
Leman Russes are pretty high priority targets in general so I find that lowering their cost helps lessen the pain when they inevitably explode.
The LR Annihilator is a beast if you haven't gotten to try one yet. 4 LC shots is tasty, even tastier with overlapping fields of fire and Cadian rerolls of 1. If you're fighting Chaos and pop the VfC strat or the Cadian Relic on top of that, even Morty is going to be a little nervous.
I haven't had too many games yet, but I'm leaning in the other direction. At eight points a pop, this is a dirt cheap way to toss a pair of heavy bolters onto a high toughness, high wound platform. Hull lascannon I could go either way on - depends more on the rest of my force, but I think the sponson HBs are definitely worth taking.
ajax_xaja wrote: I'm positive this has been answered before, but what's the current thought on putting sponsons on a Battle Cannon Russ?
Or for that matter, sponsons in general? I'm leaning towards keeping it cheap, and having more models/bodies on the table, but figured I'd poll you all first.
My thought is I'd rather put two heavy bolters on an LRBT than not. Its only 16 points, and then they're on a T8 tank instead of a T3 5+ save infantry. But you're already paying quite a bit for the platform, so not putting them on there is a waste. My LRBTs rarely move much. I don't get to use regiment tactics much anyway, as my opponent's army the last few games has still been stuck with just an index, but I really like the Tallarn trait for the tanks. Heavy bolters are one of the most point efficient weapons in the game.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Niiai wrote: Is there anywhere I can read up on heavy weapon teams? I am adding some genestealer cults to my nid army. I might support them with some astra militarum, but I do not know enough about them. My tyranids brings venom cannons and impaler cannons. The cult brings hammer abbrrants. I don't know what AM can bring. The army is very saturated in infantery, I feel a tank would be shot of the table turn 1.
Lascannons (in my opinion), should either be with a full squad or have two mortars accompanying them as ablative wounds. Lascannons are too expensive to run in a heavy weapon squad alone. I typically put the lascannons with the infantry squads (not all of them, just the line holders), heavy bolters in a team right behind them, and then mortar squads are spaced out behind my lines to prevent deep strikers. I also use sentinels to push the deep strike bubble forward, and usually have some bare infantry squads in front of my lascannon infantry squads so they can keep firing longer.
If you put lascannons in heavy weapon teams, your opponent will just wipe them off the table asap. If you're facing enemy guard, they'll hit you with mortars and your expensive lascannons will just be dead.
ajax_xaja wrote: I'm positive this has been answered before, but what's the current thought on putting sponsons on a Battle Cannon Russ?
Or for that matter, sponsons in general? I'm leaning towards keeping it cheap, and having more models/bodies on the table, but figured I'd poll you all first.
My thought is I'd rather put two heavy bolters on an LRBT than not. Its only 16 points, and then they're on a T8 tank instead of a T3 5+ save infantry. But you're already paying quite a bit for the platform, so not putting them on there is a waste. My LRBTs rarely move much. I don't get to use regiment tactics much anyway, as my opponent's army the last few games has still been stuck with just an index, but I really like the Tallarn trait for the tanks. Heavy bolters are one of the most point efficient weapons in the game.
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T8 is tough, but a good opposing list is easily capable of removing at least one LR per turn, if not more. It's not as survivable as people make it out to be.
You're paying a lot for the platform, but said platform is also degrading as it takes damage and is a high priority target. 6 damage in and now four guns are hitting on 5's instead of two, against -1 to hit armies, the tank is effectively dead at that point without propping it up with CP.
I'm positive this has been answered before, but what's the current thought on putting sponsons on a Battle Cannon Russ?
Or for that matter, sponsons in general? I'm leaning towards keeping it cheap, and having more models/bodies on the table, but figured I'd poll you all first.
My thought is I'd rather put two heavy bolters on an LRBT than not. Its only 16 points, and then they're on a T8 tank instead of a T3 5+ save infantry. But you're already paying quite a bit for the platform, so not putting them on there is a waste. My LRBTs rarely move much. I don't get to use regiment tactics much anyway, as my opponent's army the last few games has still been stuck with just an index, but I really like the Tallarn trait for the tanks. Heavy bolters are one of the most point efficient weapons in the game.
.
T8 is tough, but a good opposing list is easily capable of removing at least one LR per turn, if not more. It's not as survivable as people make it out to be.
You're paying a lot for the platform, but said platform is also degrading as it takes damage and is a high priority target. 6 damage in and now four guns are hitting on 5's instead of two, against -1 to hit armies, the tank is effectively dead at that point without propping it up with CP.
Agreed, but cover is a thing, and Tanks are more survivable than Heavy Weapon Teams. It really depends on your opponents of course. I don't find the 16 points to be a waste, and I even usually throw on a stormbolter as well. I mostly play at 1k, so I'm only bringing one or two tanks typically anyway.
My philosophy is always to give my opponent an entire army of things he wants to kill, so he's forced to make an unpleasant choice. Everything I bring is meant to be a threat in some way, and he can't kill all of it. Shoot the tanks? The infantry are carrying heavy weapons and are equally threatening. Shoot the infantry? The heavy weapons are behind the lines laying down fire (mostly heavy bolters and mortars). Shoot the heavy weapon teams? Here come the tanks.
argonak wrote: I also use sentinels to push the deep strike bubble forward, and usually have some bare infantry squads in front of my lascannon infantry squads so they can keep firing longer.
talk to me about your sentinels, Lascannon, Autocannon or Heavy Flamer? or any other gun for that matter. I'm assuming these are scout sentinels and not armoured ones aswell.
I think the Storm Bolter is an easy auto-include for Russes. Personally, I favor no sponsons, but with points left in a list I might add some I guess. I'd rather spam chassis and turret weapons that can fire twice. The hull weapon depends on what else is in your list IMO - if you're short on AT then even BS4+ LC might be a big help in a pinch
No. Forgeworld hasn't created tank commander profiles for it or the stygies vanquisher. You can have another tank commander give them reroll 1s via orders, which is pretty good
Has anyone tried using the Tallarn Ambush Stratagem using Hellhounds? Ambushing 2 Hellhounds with melta cannons and one Devil Dog with Heavy Bolters 9" away from the enemy would mean a S**t tonne of half range melta shots on any armour as well as two inferno cannon shots (16" range) into any nearby infantry.
I currently run a Cadian spearhead detachment with Paskisher, two LRBT and a HWT. For the cost of that detachment (plus a hellhound from my catachan detachment) I could run a Tallarn Outrider detachment with a Punisher Tank commander with sponson HB, the two Hellhounds, one Devil dog, two Rough riders and a sentinel.
I'd lose the possibility of using the Relic of Cadia (only great against Chaos imo) but would gain the ability to safely deliver 3 flame and melta belching beasts into shooting distance.
I have found that the go to speed of LRBT is now 5" with grinding advance and the 12" of the hellhound varients (which won't cause a -1 to hit thanks to the tallarn special rule) appeals to me. I'm keen to hear peoples thoughts though.
so i have 250 bucks to spend tomorrow on guard. currently i have two leman russes and some infantry. what should i get? definately getting a super heavy of some kind. ATM leaning baneblade..... or knight..... or shadowsword
gendoikari87 wrote: so i have 250 bucks to spend tomorrow on guard. currently i have two leman russes and some infantry. what should i get? definately getting a super heavy of some kind. ATM leaning baneblade..... or knight..... or shadowsword
Baneblade. Then make sure you magnetize it so you can swap between the different types. At the minimum be able to switch between shadowsword and baneblade. Personally, I would magnetize for all eight since GW seems to Nerf/buff so quickly now.
I personally like the transport variants a bit more... they each have a specific niche, AT, AI, and general purpose. They can carry a decent amount of infantry, or even a squad of Bullgryn. In a pinch, they can be played as the shadowsord hull variants.
Trying to add the baneblade variant as well just adds loads of additional work, and Im not sure its worth it. Especially if the baneblade hull has some warping going on, which is pretty common in large plastic parts.
So yeah. Id just go with banehammer, doomhammer and stormlord. Just needs to switch guns then.
godardc wrote: I have just received my codex, and I'm now writting an armoured company list. I'm interested in hearing about executioner leman russes with plasma sponsons: 2d6 (1d6 shots twice) + 2d3 shots of overheated plasma seem quite good !
With the reroll order and the tallarn doctrine for the sponsons (I have already decided my doctrine will be tallarn).
The punisher seems pretty good too, killing about 15 gaunts/orks a turn with heavy bolters sponsons.
It will only get to fire once, because once an opponent sees 2d6+2d3 plasma shots and a lascannon come from a single tank they will do everything in their power to kill it. I have seen mine kill a repulsor in a single phase like it was a joke, not to mention it absolutely murders things like primaris or dreads. It's a bit pricey, but they hit so hard I cannot complain. If any tank is going to be your commander, it's an executioner. It is expensive though for arguably even less survivability, so make sure you're cool with it dying a lot, because it will rarely live to turn 3.
The issue is compared to a LRBT, they will fire far less, but they will be far more spectacular for that 1-2 turns of shooting they get. I would absolutely make it a tank commander but try running several normal russe's and keep the executioner away from fire for the first turn or two. The executioner excels at the "I want that dead NOW" role and really shines when used to hunt a key Target or stop a breakthrough. If you park it in the open turn 1 on the front line it will go down hard.
Building from that, there's a local group that I found that's a bit more competitive so I've been trying out random things. They play ITC missions and are preparing for some event in Tennessee, so they've been going pretty hard, primarily eldar and necrons. I'm curious, how are you guys running pure/mostly pure guard dealing with shenanigans like -1/-2 to hit abilities? Because my solution seems to be just bring more guns. I tried being clever and it didn't go well, but when I added more tanks and dudes it was way more effective. The elder seem to blow their load pretty quickly and if you can survive that aloha strike it gets much easier. The necrons have shenanigans but none of them seem to help prevent dying, at least in the initial opening volley.
One thing I'm really happy to see is just how solid Company commanders + infantry squads + leman russe's works. It's just that peanut butter and chocolate of combos and I love it. It's critical to get the ratio right though, and I'm still toying with it. I think the sweet spot for 2000pts is going to be 100 infantry/5 LRBT's in a spearhead, but we'll see. 80 feels a bit light, even when I went ham and had something like 40 Stormtroopers dropping in. It seems like against most opponents you can expect to lose 60-70 guardsmen by end of turn 2. I'm hoping 100 gives me a few squads to grab objectives later on after the russes have done their work, we'll see how it works. Stormtroopers are absolutely a good addition for an infantry army as they give you some mobility, but you can't count on it. I've dropped down to 20 and I honestly wonder if those points would be better spent elsewhere. They only get one good round of shooting for the same price as a Russ, but have drastically reduced range and often are at risk to -1 auras or deepstrike denial, whereas if a Russ can see something it can hit it just like normal. LRBT's really shine in an infantry list as battlecannon/LC, although I'm not sure which regiment is the best yet. They definitely get better the more you add though. 3 is a joke, but if you hit the 5-6 territory your opponent will start to sweat more.
Other than that I'm basically caught in a weird struggle over the ratio of boys:toys in my pure IG lists. I want to try things like primaris psykers or tac bombs but often just find that more of my grunt units seems to do the job better. I'm not sure if this is just the weird confirmation bias or a legit thing, but I've been noticing it more and more over the 6 or so games I've had this week. I often find myself just wanting more bodies and hulls, and rarely thinking "man if only I had smite/some sort of pyschic power/weird gimmick unit I'd be fine." It's always "huh I need more guardsmen" or " huh, maybe another Russ would help."
MrMoustaffa wrote: It's always "huh I need more guardsmen" or " huh, maybe another Russ would help."
That was a good read, ta!
I'll try out "mo russes mo peeps" when I get the chance (just hopped over to battlescribe after reading) but I have seen tricksy things like bullgryn, crusaders, Primaris casting psychic barrier do a lot of work online. I guess that's the joy of guard, a completely vanilla force is still very effective!
I'm sure the shenanigans stuff is powerful, it wouldn't be used if it wasn't. I'm just doing what I know and don't have enough experience with things like pyskers to use them properly yet.
So don't take my word as gospel, it's just observations from a guy who is used to running infantry.
To give you an idea, I took a primaris pysker yesterday for the first time in 3 years and forgot to do my pyschic phase every turn. I ended up just assaulting things with his force stave and killing bikes I know for a fact the pysker can be good, I'm just really bad at using him. Same for things like ogryns and Celestine. I don't own them so they don't compute as something I could try most of the time
godardc wrote: I have just received my codex, and I'm now writting an armoured company list. I'm interested in hearing about executioner leman russes with plasma sponsons: 2d6 (1d6 shots twice) + 2d3 shots of overheated plasma seem quite good !
With the reroll order and the tallarn doctrine for the sponsons (I have already decided my doctrine will be tallarn).
The punisher seems pretty good too, killing about 15 gaunts/orks a turn with heavy bolters sponsons.
It will only get to fire once, because once an opponent sees 2d6+2d3 plasma shots and a lascannon come from a single tank they will do everything in their power to kill it. I have seen mine kill a repulsor in a single phase like it was a joke, not to mention it absolutely murders things like primaris or dreads. It's a bit pricey, but they hit so hard I cannot complain. If any tank is going to be your commander, it's an executioner. It is expensive though for arguably even less survivability, so make sure you're cool with it dying a lot, because it will rarely live to turn 3.
The issue is compared to a LRBT, they will fire far less, but they will be far more spectacular for that 1-2 turns of shooting they get. I would absolutely make it a tank commander but try running several normal russe's and keep the executioner away from fire for the first turn or two. The executioner excels at the "I want that dead NOW" role and really shines when used to hunt a key Target or stop a breakthrough. If you park it in the open turn 1 on the front line it will go down hard.
Building from that, there's a local group that I found that's a bit more competitive so I've been trying out random things. They play ITC missions and are preparing for some event in Tennessee, so they've been going pretty hard, primarily eldar and necrons. I'm curious, how are you guys running pure/mostly pure guard dealing with shenanigans like -1/-2 to hit abilities? Because my solution seems to be just bring more guns. I tried being clever and it didn't go well, but when I added more tanks and dudes it was way more effective. The elder seem to blow their load pretty quickly and if you can survive that aloha strike it gets much easier. The necrons have shenanigans but none of them seem to help prevent dying, at least in the initial opening volley.
One thing I'm really happy to see is just how solid Company commanders + infantry squads + leman russe's works. It's just that peanut butter and chocolate of combos and I love it. It's critical to get the ratio right though, and I'm still toying with it. I think the sweet spot for 2000pts is going to be 100 infantry/5 LRBT's in a spearhead, but we'll see. 80 feels a bit light, even when I went ham and had something like 40 Stormtroopers dropping in. It seems like against most opponents you can expect to lose 60-70 guardsmen by end of turn 2. I'm hoping 100 gives me a few squads to grab objectives later on after the russes have done their work, we'll see how it works. Stormtroopers are absolutely a good addition for an infantry army as they give you some mobility, but you can't count on it. I've dropped down to 20 and I honestly wonder if those points would be better spent elsewhere. They only get one good round of shooting for the same price as a Russ, but have drastically reduced range and often are at risk to -1 auras or deepstrike denial, whereas if a Russ can see something it can hit it just like normal. LRBT's really shine in an infantry list as battlecannon/LC, although I'm not sure which regiment is the best yet. They definitely get better the more you add though. 3 is a joke, but if you hit the 5-6 territory your opponent will start to sweat more.
Other than that I'm basically caught in a weird struggle over the ratio of boys:toys in my pure IG lists. I want to try things like primaris psykers or tac bombs but often just find that more of my grunt units seems to do the job better. I'm not sure if this is just the weird confirmation bias or a legit thing, but I've been noticing it more and more over the 6 or so games I've had this week. I often find myself just wanting more bodies and hulls, and rarely thinking "man if only I had smite/some sort of pyschic power/weird gimmick unit I'd be fine." It's always "huh I need more guardsmen" or " huh, maybe another Russ would help."
Yeah, I'll probably outflank it (I'll be playing tallarn).
Thanks for the advice I don't have the FW index yet, how are cyclops this edition ? I have some I would like to use
I started out playing 8th with just infantry and leman russes. I ended up switching to infantry backed by artillery since russes were pure trash (no hyperbole). Then our codex dropped. Artillery is out, leman russes are in.
I've tried Eversor assassins and they have performed very well. Especially when I flank a unit of rough riders with him. Rough Riders are best used just to rush to a far away OBJ and hide out of LoS but they've done well with tying up enemy backfield shooty units (I'm looking at you Tyrant Guard!).
I have pretty much stopped using Scions. They are so cool and fun and my Kasrkin love their table time but I just don't need them anymore.
I have tried out Bullgryn and Celestine a bunch. They are fun. I only have 3 CC Bullgryn though so that limits their effectiveness. I think they would be very strong in a larger unit and buffed up with psychic powers.
I usually run 1 astropath for at least 1 deny. However, now that their points are so close to Primaris it is more difficult to choose., I'll probably continue to run Astropaths since their removal of cover for an enemy unit within 18" is the best thing about them.
But now I want to try out the Culexus assassin + Greyfax since I usually play a guy who is running Chaos soup. So that gives an 18" barrier where my opponent is -2 to psychic tests AND I get +1 to deny twice.
The beauty of the guard is that I can try out all of these different things and still maintain my core of 4 russes and 40+ troops. It makes plug and play list building really easy. I have found that I can do almost whatever I want list building wise and still win or come very close as long as I have 40 guard and 4 russes on the table. And CA changes only made my decisions easier. IE: Cyclops, Wyverns, etc are all out. So my advice to you is try out our wide variety of units available and play with what is fun or cool and the strength of our codex will hold it up. Just my 2 cents.
Created with BattleScribe Two detachments, the one with lots of heavy and the one with the most elites choices (what are the name in English ? Vanguard and spearhead ?).
No troops because GW apparently thinks veterans are elites and stormtroopers are troops, okay, why not, thanks GW. Going to play Tallarn and outflank the executioner the Hellhound and the battlecannon tank commander.
Does it seem ok to you ?
(A primaris psyker is missing, but is supposed to be here, bringing the list to 1990, with the two following powers: psychic barrier and nightshroud).
List seems fun and cool from a fluffy viewpoint, but with the prevalence of "deep strike" and 1st turn charges now, your tanks are extremely vulnerable from a practical viewpoint.
Multilasers are trash, for 2 points less you can just put a heavy bolter in the turret.
Colonel Cross wrote: List seems fun and cool from a fluffy viewpoint, but with the prevalence of "deep strike" and 1st turn charges now, your tanks are extremely vulnerable from a practical viewpoint.
Multilasers are trash, for 2 points less you can just put a heavy bolter in the turret.
Yeah I know, I have enough points to do it, I will see if I have spare heavy bolters, but for now I want to stay wysywyg.
Yes, I am afraid of this, will see how it fare on the tabletop.
Thank for the inputs !
Created with BattleScribe Two detachments, the one with lots of heavy and the one with the most elites choices (what are the name in English ? Vanguard and spearhead ?).
No troops because GW apparently thinks veterans are elites and stormtroopers are troops, okay, why not, thanks GW. Going to play Tallarn and outflank the executioner the Hellhound and the battlecannon tank commander.
Does it seem ok to you ?
(A primaris psyker is missing, but is supposed to be here, bringing the list to 1990, with the two following powers: psychic barrier and nightshroud).
Do you have a particular reason for going the melta vet route? Your tanks already pack a ton of anti-tank fire power. The problem I have with meltagun vets is you are going to get a single shot off with them before they're dead. Guard just die. Thats what they do. Melta guns cost a LOT, and only hit a single target. Point for point, my money is still on plasma guns, at least then you have the opportunity to hit two targets per gun.
Also, can you scrounge up enough points for a Company commander for your other two squads? Orders are a HUGE force multiplier. You don't want to take veterans without orders!
godardc wrote: Going to play Tallarn and outflank the executioner the Hellhound and the battlecannon tank commander.
Does it seem ok to you ?
(A primaris psyker is missing, but is supposed to be here, bringing the list to 1990, with the two following powers: psychic barrier and nightshroud).
Either the Chapter approved or Erreta/FAQ changed the Tallarn Stratagem so that only one of the three ambushing units can have the VEHICLE keyword
You can still ambush a vehicle unit that contains more than one unit i.e. a unit of three LRBT or three Hellhounds. I'm looking at ambushing a unit of 3 hellhounds with multimeltas (getting them within half range of the multimeltas and within range of the inferno cannon for max damage and in one piece)
I've been looking around for other people trying this strategy but haven't seen anything.
The problem with MM is that they'll be hitting on 4+ at best, which is very meh with low shot-count guns. At least with LRBTs you can snap off the turret twice on the turn you come in. Or hit automatically with the HH Flamer turret. YMMV I guess.
Any LRBTs brought on using the tallarn stratagem will only be able to use their turret gun once as they count as having moved their full distance when they ambush (therefor more than 5") so no grinding advance.
Of the HH turret mounted flamer options, only the Inferno cannon can be in range after ambushing.
Unfortunately AM will almost always be hitting on 4+ unless you take the tank commander. This would limit you to ambushing with only one vehicle as they can't be taken in a vehicle squadron.
CaptainO wrote: Any LRBTs brought on using the tallarn stratagem will only be able to use their turret gun once as they count as having moved their full distance when they ambush (therefor more than 5") so no grinding advance.
Of the HH turret mounted flamer options, only the Inferno cannon can be in range after ambushing.
Unfortunately AM will almost always be hitting on 4+ unless you take the tank commander. This would limit you to ambushing with only one vehicle as they can't be taken in a vehicle squadron.
Why would they count as having moved full distance ?
I may have missed something.
That and GWfaq... why is GW hating me ???
I have mainly melta vets because I played the Forge World armored company, and I needes AT power as my LRBT were already providing anti troops fire. But now, with the removal of templates, everything changed
CaptainO wrote: Any LRBTs brought on using the tallarn stratagem will only be able to use their turret gun once as they count as having moved their full distance when they ambush (therefor more than 5") so no grinding advance.
Of the HH turret mounted flamer options, only the Inferno cannon can be in range after ambushing.
Unfortunately AM will almost always be hitting on 4+ unless you take the tank commander. This would limit you to ambushing with only one vehicle as they can't be taken in a vehicle squadron.
Why would they count as having moved full distance ?
I may have missed something.
That and GWfaq... why is GW hating me ???
I have mainly melta vets because I played the Forge World armored company, and I needes AT power as my LRBT were already providing anti troops fire. But now, with the removal of templates, everything changed
Because you're assumed to have been going full speed to get the flank I guess.
Honestly of that's the worst the FAQ's throw at us for tanks I would count our blessings. They could decide leman russe's are the new conscripts and Nerf them into Oblivion if we're not careful
godardc wrote: Going to play Tallarn and outflank the executioner the Hellhound and the battlecannon tank commander.
Does it seem ok to you ?
(A primaris psyker is missing, but is supposed to be here, bringing the list to 1990, with the two following powers: psychic barrier and nightshroud).
Either the Chapter approved or Erreta/FAQ changed the Tallarn Stratagem so that only one of the three ambushing units can have the VEHICLE keyword
You can still ambush a vehicle unit that contains more than one unit i.e. a unit of three LRBT or three Hellhounds. I'm looking at ambushing a unit of 3 hellhounds with multimeltas (getting them within half range of the multimeltas and within range of the inferno cannon for max damage and in one piece)
I've been looking around for other people trying this strategy but haven't seen anything.
If you have enough CP, just use the strat twice. Bam, six Leman Russ in outflank. For added sweetness, put down your Grand Strategist/Kurovs Warlord on the table first and roll those six dice for refunds.
Though, is losing grinding advance for a turn worth keeping them off the board I wonder? I guess since you're not committed to always using the strat, you can see if your opponents list's alpha is a big enough threat first before using the CP
CaptainO - Ill be trying out those ambushing Hellhounds at an RTT tournie this weekend in Albany NY Ill post how they did. I think its a solid way to use them, especially if there are flyers on the other side - 2d6 auto hits a S6 -1 plus a MM per chassis.
godardc wrote: Going to play Tallarn and outflank the executioner the Hellhound and the battlecannon tank commander.
Does it seem ok to you ?
(A primaris psyker is missing, but is supposed to be here, bringing the list to 1990, with the two following powers: psychic barrier and nightshroud).
Either the Chapter approved or Erreta/FAQ changed the Tallarn Stratagem so that only one of the three ambushing units can have the VEHICLE keyword
You can still ambush a vehicle unit that contains more than one unit i.e. a unit of three LRBT or three Hellhounds. I'm looking at ambushing a unit of 3 hellhounds with multimeltas (getting them within half range of the multimeltas and within range of the inferno cannon for max damage and in one piece)
I've been looking around for other people trying this strategy but haven't seen anything.
If you have enough CP, just use the strat twice. Bam, six Leman Russ in outflank. For added sweetness, put down your Grand Strategist/Kurovs Warlord on the table first and roll those six dice for refunds.
Though, is losing grinding advance for a turn worth keeping them off the board I wonder? I guess since you're not committed to always using the strat, you can see if your opponents list's alpha is a big enough threat first before using the CP
You really need to read the codex again. You use the Stratagem before the game begins. Therefore you can't get those CPs back. You also can't use it more than once, as per the rules on Stratagems per phase.
On another topic, just played a 2k game against a very competitive Death Guard list. I've come to the conclusion that if you're facing Mortarion and Magnus you are screwed unless you get a favorable deployment and/or you're rocking a super heavy. My 5 Russes and 3 hwt lascannons barely took them out in 3 turns. By that time I was nearly tabled. First defeat of 8th edition.
Alternatively you could just not roll like garbage as I am known to do against an opponent who uses those damn dark imperium dice. For an example, I put 18 wounds on Mortarion with a Russ and between armor saves and disgustingly resilient he saved all but 3
You use the strategem "during deployment" which doesn't count as a phase so you may use it any number of times.
Since you use it "during" deployment. You dont have to use it right away. So you deploy your grand strategist warlord first. Grand strategist gives you the CP roll if your army is battleforged and is on the table. Then you activate the strategem twice. He is on the table so you get the CP rolls.
kaiservonhugal wrote: CaptainO - Ill be trying out those ambushing Hellhounds at an RTT tournie this weekend in Albany NY Ill post how they did. I think its a solid way to use them, especially if there are flyers on the other side - 2d6 auto hits a S6 -1 plus a MM per chassis.
I'd really appreciate your findings. It sounds great in theory. I never even thought about the benefit of using the 18" autohit flamers against flyers. I'm thinking of running two Hellhounds with Inferno cannon and hull mounted MM with a Devil Dog in between the two(Hellhound explodes 6" on a 4+ whereas a Devil Dog explodes on a 6+) This could be problematic seeing as they would be deployed within 6" of each other upon arriving on the table. If a Hellhound rather than a Devil Dog was in the middle and exploded....
Automatically Appended Next Post:
U02dah4 wrote: You use the strategem "during deployment" which doesn't count as a phase so you may use it any number of times.
Since you use it "during" deployment. You dont have to use it right away. So you deploy your grand strategist warlord first. Grand strategist gives you the CP roll if your army is battleforged and is on the table. Then you activate the strategem twice. He is on the table so you get the CP rolls.
The ITC consensus is that unless specified (such as with prelim bombardment) Stratagems are not limited to "one per phase" if they are used in during deployment. I know the Ravenguard often use their infiltrate like stratagem multiple times prior to the battle to deepstrike multiple units. Its kind of a moot point as 6CP is far too much for me just to ambush two vehicle squads.
RAW would mean that if the warlord is alive and on the board you try and recoup them using grand strategist. Without a FAQ I would understand if my opponent got salty though...
Thanks for your help, guys. What do you think of the superheavy ? The shadowsword and the quake.cannon one sound pretty interesting to me, the hellhammer, my old favourite seems less good now. But still, 500 points in a 26 wound model ? Not even a 2+ or T9 :/
Just used the ogryn bodyguard with death mask relic for the first time in my foot list. Wow that thing is a beast! Walked straight into a black Knight deathstar, killed one but most importantly survived with no damage taken. This meant they were locked up from shooting and charging next turn. This guy is so good in combination with a horde list!
gendoikari87 wrote: Got my first game with the baneblade coming up, any tips on keeping it alive?
Depends a lot on what your opponent is bringing I'm afraid.
I've had single Baneblades be one-shot by three Predator Annihilators or 10 Dark Angel Hellblasters around captains and lieutenants and whatnot (and conversely if I get to go first I wreck those units in turn, so in that case it's a "who goes first" question).
I've also played games where the Baneblade has never died, because my opponent was horde-ish GSC and the Baneblade just got jammed up on infantry, but didn't die, even though they still won.
And then I've had games where single tanks just steamroll the opposition because they were so psychologically scarred by the vehicle that their tactical decision-making fell to pieces.
gendoikari87 wrote: Got my first game with the baneblade coming up, any tips on keeping it alive?
Two astropath to cast nightshroud and psychic barrier are a must
This only works if you go first. If you go first, you probably don't need this. A fully kitted Baneblade will easily destroy any major threats to its existence if it gets to shoot them first, and with adequate support from other units, you should be able to accomplish this with everything except Necron Pylons (in which case neither psychic power will help) or long-ranged anti-tank that wins the First Turn roll, e.g. Predator Annihilators, Neutron Onagers, etc.
You should probably be fine just leaving it sit out there, though I'd worm in a tech-priest for repairs since it might take damage. At 1k-1500 there's not much to kill it, especially in a meta that doesn't seem prepared for superheavy armour.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Voroshilov btw is the Soviet designer that made the kv series including the fortress and design inspiration for the baneblade that is the kv-5
DoomMouse wrote: Just used the ogryn bodyguard with death mask relic for the first time in my foot list. Wow that thing is a beast! Walked straight into a black Knight deathstar, killed one but most importantly survived with no damage taken. This meant they were locked up from shooting and charging next turn. This guy is so good in combination with a horde list!
How did you kit him out? I'm seriously considering a few in my infantry list as both a counterattack element as well as just being good old bodyguards
DoomMouse wrote: Just used the ogryn bodyguard with death mask relic for the first time in my foot list. Wow that thing is a beast! Walked straight into a black Knight deathstar, killed one but most importantly survived with no damage taken. This meant they were locked up from shooting and charging next turn. This guy is so good in combination with a horde list!
How did you kit him out? I'm seriously considering a few in my infantry list as both a counterattack element as well as just being good old bodyguards
Just with a bullgryn maul, slabshield and death mask for the 2++. I don't really see much point in using him for the actual bodyguard function as you may as well take another TWO company commanders for the same points! Having a few S7 D2 attacks in CC that hit on a 3 were really useful in the game I played. He really adds to a guard gunline as he's a unit that no one wants to engage in CC due to being too tough. Makes opponents have an interesting choice to make between charging your guardsmen and getting locked up next turn by the guard, or backing off and letting the guardsmen go unmolested
Niiai wrote: Is there anywhere I can read up on heavy weapon teams? I am adding some genestealer cults to my nid army. I might support them with some astra militarum, but I do not know enough about them. My tyranids brings venom cannons and impaler cannons. The cult brings hammer abbrrants. I don't know what AM can bring. The army is very saturated in infantery, I feel a tank would be shot of the table turn 1.
If you point enough flashlights at something, maybe it’ll break! Anyways, you can take any heavy weapon from the guard codex, so heavy Bolter, lascannon, etc. I’m not sure if you can take mortars but since I play dkok that’s what I do.
Has there been a recent change in the rules for targeting characters? Can a character still prevent the enemy from shooting at another character if its closer but out of LOS? I half remember seeing a recent rule change but can't find it. A reference would be much appreciated.
As this is the only enduring IG thread on these forums, I just want to say: I almost revived that dead thread about IG being overpowered when the codex dropped just so I could let it sink in to people they shouldn't jump to conclusions. (yeah I'm still mad about our overnerfs essentially requiring me to only field Russes + infantry against competitive opponents) .
Let's not reopen that can of worms again. We all agree that GW did a very poor job with the changes to IG. But it's hardly just russe's and infantry that are good. Many of the artillery platforms are still very powerful, some baneblade variants are still nuts, ogryns still have their shenanigans, mortars are some of the most cost efficient shooting in the game, right up there with lasguns, we still have one of the best pyskers in the game, orders are excellent, we have some of the most useful regiment traits in the game, and even with the commissar nerf we have more ways to mitigate morale than any other army (aside from armies that straight up just get our old commissar style rule of course like that eldar subset) Unless your meta is practicing for Adepticon literally every single game, you can build a wide variety of IG lists and compete fairly well.
It shouldn't be shocking however that infantry squads and Leman Russe's make a solid core to any list and is a good idea to use, that's the point. Infantry squads and leman russes are the core almost every army you see in a book or picture is built around. The codex literally has a few pages where it breaks down in detail how infantry and tank units are organized, and you could copy paste these into a list builder and be 80% done with your list in most areas. Infantry squad/leman Russ meta is ironically one of the only codexes functioning somewhat as intended on a competitive level right now. I can sit down and follow the exact TOE of an infantry and tank company and build a very solid list. How many other codexes can say that? What would you say if a space marine player was complaining that he needed a solid core of tac squads and scouts to build a solid list with some devestators, dreads, and assault squads mixed in? You'd laugh, because that's how the army is supposed to be built on a basic level, and we have proof because Dakka flipped out when that guy won a GW tournament with 6 tac squad units (granted 5 each with a lascannon but still). Yes it's cool to be able to build weird variant lists like mech vets but a player should be able to open his book, see the "hey this is how your army works in the lore" section, build his army like that, and do well. And an IG player can do exactly that. He won't win with purely leman russe's and infantry all the time, but that's a sign that an army is at least somewhat designed well. How well they're balanced to other armies can depend on your point of view, as well as internal balance, which is spotty and then some, but at least the core of what makes a guard army what it is works and acts like it's supposed to on the tabletop.
The issues of course step in with GW's panicked nuking of commissars and conscripts. I can't comment on the FW nerfs but for the codex nerfs they were absolutely needed. They were way too heavy handed obviously, but they were at least trying. It's pretty telling when literally anyone who could take IG at a competitive level was spamming conscripts and commissars if they had the models. Had the state gone on for say 6 more months it would've become way more obvious and problematic. Which is part of why I think the 8th Ed codex didn't absolutely obliterate every meta in that one week golden period we had before the Nerf. You can't just go out and build that kind of army at the drop of a hat, even if you're a die-hard tournament player. And if you were crazy enough to collect say 250 infantry and 10 leman russe's, it is highly unlikely you played competitive 40k because that army setup has been considered trash to middling at best since I started in 5th, so for the most part only casual players had access to that kind of collection. Thats why it didn't seem like a big deal yet when it dropped. I think the one good tournament result we got they only took say 4-5 of the top 10 spots in varying degrees of pure to soup lists? That's pretty good for a game that has something like 20 different distinct factions with multiple subsets. Yes the IG codex didn't seem like it was dominating the meta yet, but had it gone say 6 months without the Nerf, it would've become brutally obvious as more people bought and painted up the armies they needed. The nerfs were needed, just handled poorly.
I'm still on the fence on if IG are "really really good" or "broken" but it seems like as more codexes drop the codex is becoming much more fair to play. At least now when I play another army that has a codex it's been a good fight, which is better than I could say in the days of hot index on index action when 8th dropped. Most of games still devolve down to me tabling or near tabling the opponent, but I've found most can at least fight me at the objective game and win there, which makes sense with how I build my lists. It's also fitting lorewise, if you show up to a battle with guard and expect to win a battle of attrition, you're going to have a bad time. But if you force the IG player to play the objective he can struggle and even lose regardless of the fact that he killed 90% of your army.
Colonel Cross wrote: As this is the only enduring IG thread on these forums, I just want to say: I almost revived that dead thread about IG being overpowered when the codex dropped just so I could let it sink in to people they shouldn't jump to conclusions. (yeah I'm still mad about our overnerfs essentially requiring me to only field Russes + infantry against competitive opponents) .
You mean because they... crippled conscripts?
There's still plenty more gold in the book:
Hellhounds are amazing for the price and the 4+ to deal mortal wounds when they explode just sweetens the deal.
Basilisks and Manticores are still plenty strong.
Even with full price plasma, Scions are genuinely still one of the best troops in the game. I've always been a member of the "IG aren't broken" camp and I doubt myself sometimes when I look at Scions.
Several of the superheavies are what I'd call more than a little competitive.
Ogryn Bodyguard gives us a beatstick that rivals what many codexes have for double to triple the points (which is supposed to be the IG "weak spot"). I haven't used one, but the statline is pretty comparable.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, please do not start those threads up again. That would make me unhappy. I'm kind of enjoying the relative quiet.
As this is the only enduring IG thread on these forums, I just want to say: I almost revived that dead thread about IG being overpowered when the codex dropped just so I could let it sink in to people they shouldn't jump to conclusions. (yeah I'm still mad about our overnerfs essentially requiring me to only field Russes + infantry against competitive opponents) .
The guard were nerfed from the best single army in the game to... the best single army in the game. Guard remain the best choice of armies in the game. You literally have every thing you could ever want in a guard army. I am baffled why you are upset about anything. Were you abusing smite spam? If so my sympathy for you is absolutely nil. Smite spam was not fun to play against
I’d like to see you back that statement up with some actual tournament results. Because in the real world where the rest of us live, Eldar reaperspam and Chaos variants (like the disgusting Cultist/Pox hordes that are apparently perfectly in balance) are splitting tournament wins, while AM has fallen off.
As this is the only enduring IG thread on these forums, I just want to say: I almost revived that dead thread about IG being overpowered when the codex dropped just so I could let it sink in to people they shouldn't jump to conclusions. (yeah I'm still mad about our overnerfs essentially requiring me to only field Russes + infantry against competitive opponents) .
lol - I hear ya on that one. My latest incarnation of my 1k patrol only list is 4 russes, 3 infantry squads and two vet squads...
A bit of a side note. But what is the cheapest ways to get heavy weapon teams? I am building 6 x mortars and 3 x lawcannons. I saw anvill had some cheap weapons, then I would only need bodies? Or are IG weapon teams cheaper?
Niiai wrote: A bit of a side note. But what is the cheapest ways to get heavy weapon teams? I am building 6 x mortars and 3 x lawcannons. I saw anvill had some cheap weapons, then I would only need bodies? Or are IG weapon teams cheaper?
I bought GW, which wasn't cheap, but at least they give you all the weapons with the team. I think only one tripod though, but the mortar doesn't use it. If you already had enough bodies, you could make a mortar and a lascannon out of a single kit. I think back when I ran Cadians, I'd normally use a standing set of legs from the Cadian Shock Troop box and then use one of the Heavy Weapon Team legs for the guy actually on the gun.
Nowadays playing Mordians, I don't honestly know what I'd do for heavy weapons if I wanted more than the 6 LC I have already. I guess bitz websites for the stuff I needed and then see what Victoria had to offer.
I got all my HWT mainly from cadian defence force.
GW is a pretty good way to go, you just need more 60mm bases and some sort of platform to hold the guns ( really easy to do ). Pretty much all of the 5 HWT options are pretty good, so its nice to be able to build all of them.
I pinned my guardsmen onto the 60mm bases so its easy to paint them and if I really want to I can put them on a 25mm base instead.
Example: ( I save the tripods for the autocannons or lascannons since they're so big. Missile launchers and Heavy Bolters are easy to mount).
Look I'm not saying guard are weak or they are the best single army in the game (they're not either of those). All I was saying was that the warhammer community outcry at IG being strong at all was so obnoxiously loud that it forced GW to do something. If you feel that ALL of the changes in CA with regard to IG were fair, balanced, and intuitive, then please, explain to me.
I tried using ratlings at their old price and they sucked BUT they are cool models and could easily fit into lists to use for fun. Now it's too meh to really want to use unless I'm playing my friends in fluffy battles. I'm talking about playing my friends who have chaos soup lists or competitive eldar lists. If I wanted to pay points to extend my anti-deepstrike zone, I'd have used something that had the capability to fill out a BDE and could perhaps withstand some fire aka scout sentinels for the same damn price as 5 ratlings. This is merely 1 example.
I get that guard have units which are more effective than their points would seem aka Shadowswords. My opinion, since I started back in 3rd edition and then started back up in 7th, is I don't really like superheavies in regular games. Therefore I tend to shy away from those types of units and don't have much of an opinion on them.
All I was trying to say was, that guard were powerful when their codex dropped and instead of people freaking out over it, they merely needed to remain patient to wait for other codexes to be released. And if the guard codex required ALL of the multitude of annoying changes in several FAQs and CA then by all means, adjust things which need it. As it stands, we still have stratagems and various other rules which need clarification. But instead GW had to pander and adjust points on a plethora of units, most of which I am still baffled by.
So please, continue to respond in condescending replies instead of acknowledging there has been no outcry to other powerful codexes dropping and that we still have a need for FAQs for RULES vagaries and not just freaking points updates because people cried about things.
People overreact to them because it OMGONESHOTS things, but the most common foe for my baneblade companies to lose to is hordes, and there has never ever ever been a time when I said "gee a Shadowsword would have been a better choice than my Baneblade/stormhammer/banehammer/stormsword".
Colonel Cross wrote: Look I'm not saying guard are weak or they are the best single army in the game (they're not either of those). All I was saying was that the warhammer community outcry at IG being strong at all was so obnoxiously loud that it forced GW to do something. If you feel that ALL of the changes in CA with regard to IG were fair, balanced, and intuitive, then please, explain to me.
I tried using ratlings at their old price and they sucked BUT they are cool models and could easily fit into lists to use for fun. Now it's too meh to really want to use unless I'm playing my friends in fluffy battles. I'm talking about playing my friends who have chaos soup lists or competitive eldar lists. If I wanted to pay points to extend my anti-deepstrike zone, I'd have used something that had the capability to fill out a BDE and could perhaps withstand some fire aka scout sentinels for the same damn price as 5 ratlings. This is merely 1 example.
I get that guard have units which are more effective than their points would seem aka Shadowswords. My opinion, since I started back in 3rd edition and then started back up in 7th, is I don't really like superheavies in regular games. Therefore I tend to shy away from those types of units and don't have much of an opinion on them.
All I was trying to say was, that guard were powerful when their codex dropped and instead of people freaking out over it, they merely needed to remain patient to wait for other codexes to be released. And if the guard codex required ALL of the multitude of annoying changes in several FAQs and CA then by all means, adjust things which need it. As it stands, we still have stratagems and various other rules which need clarification. But instead GW had to pander and adjust points on a plethora of units, most of which I am still baffled by.
So please, continue to respond in condescending replies instead of acknowledging there has been no outcry to other powerful codexes dropping and that we still have a need for FAQs for RULES vagaries and not just freaking points updates because people cried about things.
Guards have some really good advantages.
- 1. IG has acess to cheap units, arguably the cheapest, making getting CP easier. If IG has a good stratagem that can convert convert that CP into ad advantage you can fudge your numbers significantly.
- 2. Cheap models means you can easaly grab objectives. SM are on the other side of this.
- 3. A wast range of models make IG much better then an army that has fever options. While detachmench can change this a bit, we are stil discussion codexes spesific an not soup composition.
-4. The more unit entries you have the bigger is the chances that some of them are costed wrongly and thus powerfull. This is an argument of chance, although nerfs can have changed this back.
- 5. IG has good units on all slots.
- 6. IG is one of the few armies that have can field good anti infantery and anti armour in both a highlt big point unit and in small units. As most armies often take a balanced aproach an army lists with only tanks or only infantery can saturate a lott of heavy bolters or lascannons respectivly. Incidentaly, few 'multi wound elite infatery' means you have fewer models that are vunerable to both weapon types.
- 7 Math hammer supports that in this edition the number of attacks is much more important the qualaty of attacks. The same with the number of wounds. The IG 5+ save is good here. (As in leviathan or jorhmungard gaunts.)
- 8 IG has every concievable weapon profile in the book available to them.
- 9 Warhammer is based around SM and then adding other rule systems on after. Weard armies like nids and dark eldar have a big chance of changing from edition to edition as their particular nieche of rules matter little in this edition. See necrons lach of special rules ghaus weapons for instance. IG are fairly close to SM using many of the same weapons.
- 10. Many strategies are weak to gunlines. IG should be the best gunline in the game since that is their design space. That makes IG strong in certain editions.
IG are not OP. Point balances desides what is OP (Imagine if a GK model costed 2 points, yes please.) But unless they are severly overcosted IG often does well.
Hey all, I have a question if it is cool to change the topic.
I am planning on using a AM/GSC army for a tournament in 2 weeks time. I was just wondering if Tank Commanders are able to Command themselfs or other Tank Commanders? E.g. I plan on bringing at least 2 so could Tank Commander A give a Command to Tank Commander B and vice-a-versa.
Been looking through all the FaQ, Errata's and Codex and can't find a thing to say otherwise.
Tank commanders can not command characters. Tank commanders are characters. I don't know where it sais that. I hope that helps, although somebody can chime in with the quote.
I stil wanne know how to make cheap heavy weapon teams.
Niiai wrote: Tank commanders can not command characters. Tank commanders are characters. I don't know where it sais that. I hope that helps, although somebody can chime in with the quote.
I stil wanne know how to make cheap heavy weapon teams.
The codex says the TC can command a friendly <regiment> Leman Russ within 6" to give it an order, there is nothing preventing the TC from ordering itself.
gendoikari87 wrote: I should note my playgroup has no other super heavies and we play 1000–1500. My 1500 list is simple:
2x Tank commander
Psyker
Infantry + goodies
2x manticore
Fully kitted four sponson baneblade
Making the baneblade tallarn to deepstrike It will protect it's turn one vulnerability problem and give better positioning(place it after you know the map and game type)
I will admit the cadian bonus is awesome, but tallarn is the safest.
DoomMouse wrote: Just used the ogryn bodyguard with death mask relic for the first time in my foot list. Wow that thing is a beast! Walked straight into a black Knight deathstar, killed one but most importantly survived with no damage taken. This meant they were locked up from shooting and charging next turn. This guy is so good in combination with a horde list!
How did you kit him out? I'm seriously considering a few in my infantry list as both a counterattack element as well as just being good old bodyguards
They can be pretty awesome but your list needs to have a place for them. In my Catachan combat list I would use Nork and another one to soak wounds from Straken and the other CC that dropped out of a valkyrie but honestly in the end if your not doing something shlocky like that your better off simply taking normal bulgryn. They have the same number of attacks but less wounds for less points but the KEY is that they are in a large unit, meaning you benefit from command point interrupts or activating them first or psychic buffs etc etc. Every list I build has a 5 man bulgryn unit as the central anchor and it has never even come close to being destroyed. I have had them mulch through two 30 man ork boy units. I think any guard player not using these guys is really missing out, they are clutch.
Colonel Cross wrote: Look I'm not saying guard are weak or they are the best single army in the game (they're not either of those). All I was saying was that the warhammer community outcry at IG being strong at all was so obnoxiously loud that it forced GW to do something. If you feel that ALL of the changes in CA with regard to IG were fair, balanced, and intuitive, then please, explain to me.
I tried using ratlings at their old price and they sucked BUT they are cool models and could easily fit into lists to use for fun. Now it's too meh to really want to use unless I'm playing my friends in fluffy battles. I'm talking about playing my friends who have chaos soup lists or competitive eldar lists. If I wanted to pay points to extend my anti-deepstrike zone, I'd have used something that had the capability to fill out a BDE and could perhaps withstand some fire aka scout sentinels for the same damn price as 5 ratlings. This is merely 1 example.
I get that guard have units which are more effective than their points would seem aka Shadowswords. My opinion, since I started back in 3rd edition and then started back up in 7th, is I don't really like superheavies in regular games. Therefore I tend to shy away from those types of units and don't have much of an opinion on them.
All I was trying to say was, that guard were powerful when their codex dropped and instead of people freaking out over it, they merely needed to remain patient to wait for other codexes to be released. And if the guard codex required ALL of the multitude of annoying changes in several FAQs and CA then by all means, adjust things which need it. As it stands, we still have stratagems and various other rules which need clarification. But instead GW had to pander and adjust points on a plethora of units, most of which I am still baffled by.
So please, continue to respond in condescending replies instead of acknowledging there has been no outcry to other powerful codexes dropping and that we still have a need for FAQs for RULES vagaries and not just freaking points updates because people cried about things.
Guard are the single most powerful codex in the game. And where were you when people were endlessly whining about malefic lords (for good reason).
I'm sorry. Guard in 8th are better than every other codex. They're not quite taudar better, thank god, but don't pretend that guard have more and better tools for almost every phase of the game than any other army. They can effectively, without allies, cover 90 percent of all roles in the game. They have the best artillery (no shock here). The best chaff (Guardsmen remain real good even after conscripts were nerfed to oblivion). The best sub super heavy tanks. The best non forge world super heavies (Though super heavies are never a unit to build an army around). They have one of the best and most resilient melee units in the game. They have one of the best drop in fire power in the game (Scions are great. Yes even after you had to take fair points for plasma and melta guns). What don't they have best or near best of? Fliers, although guard fliers aren't awful. Heavy infantry, but this is hardly a loss since the consequence of everyone being a marine is that gw keeps handing out really say ways to massacre swathes of marines real efficiently, and horde melee (Now that conscripts are nerfed).
I thought Eldar may have been able to upend this, but despite their drastic increase in strength in the codex verse the index, it is still too hard for eldar to eliminate the very point efficient guard units faster than they, themselves, are eliminated. Nids prompt tighter, more efficient deployments, but if you have that down, you can beat them in punishing volleys of firepower as they mulch through your chaff and blockers, though their codex is still new enough that new tricks might show up, I don't believe this will be the case.
Chaos soup was the only contender, and their stupid OP unit was nerfed to nothing. And Guard remains able to take imperial soup, but there's very little spice for guard since guard want for pretty much nothing. With demons coming, chaos may remain a contender, but lacking the single dominating force that guard are for the imperium.
On a slightly different tone... How are you people coping with the new Death Guard? Their Disgustingly Resilient ability on everything makes it very hard to kill things. And their tank is noticeably killy. I go out of my way to win by objectives (as in seriously undermining my position for the next turn). I mainly use a Brigade with 60 guardsmen with basilisks, a Manticore, Executioner and a Punisher.
In short the more I play games of 8th the more i think Guard is very powerful against marines and Eldar but we have a problem with high resilience armies.
konst80hummel wrote: On a slightly different tone... How are you people coping with the new Death Guard? Their Disgustingly Resilient ability on everything makes it very hard to kill things. And their tank is noticeably killy. I go out of my way to win by objectives (as in seriously undermining my position for the next turn). I mainly use a Brigade with 60 guardsmen with basilisks, a Manticore, Executioner and a Punisher.
In short the more I play games of 8th the more i think Guard is very powerful against marines and Eldar but we have a problem with high resilience armies.
Multi damage really ruins plague marines day. A manticore still wounds them on a 2+ and does d3 damage meaning they are only really slightly more survivable to it then a regular marine. The things that are VERY annoying are the vehicles. High toughness a demon save and a DR save makes them a real PITA to remove sometimes. That said, you deal with them like you deal with most things, more gun.
konst80hummel wrote: On a slightly different tone... How are you people coping with the new Death Guard? Their Disgustingly Resilient ability on everything makes it very hard to kill things. And their tank is noticeably killy. I go out of my way to win by objectives (as in seriously undermining my position for the next turn). I mainly use a Brigade with 60 guardsmen with basilisks, a Manticore, Executioner and a Punisher.
In short the more I play games of 8th the more i think Guard is very powerful against marines and Eldar but we have a problem with high resilience armies.
Multi damage really ruins plague marines day. A manticore still wounds them on a 2+ and does d3 damage meaning they are only really slightly more survivable to it then a regular marine. The things that are VERY annoying are the vehicles. High toughness a demon save and a DR save makes them a real PITA to remove sometimes. That said, you deal with them like you deal with most things, more gun.
Agreed. I take Artemia Hellhounds in my lists specifically for multi-wound models. Also, Rough Riders with their D3 wounds on the charge could do a little damage, though I wouldn’t count on too much... I’ve charged Terminators with 5 RRs and taken out 2 several times, not a bad return on investment, though they usually get wiped out afterwards.
Niiai wrote: Tank commanders can not command characters. Tank commanders are characters. I don't know where it sais that. I hope that helps, although somebody can chime in with the quote.
I stil wanne know how to make cheap heavy weapon teams.
The codex says the TC can command a friendly <regiment> Leman Russ within 6" to give it an order, there is nothing preventing the TC from ordering itself.
Niiai wrote: Tank commanders can not command characters. Tank commanders are characters. I don't know where it sais that. I hope that helps, although somebody can chime in with the quote.
I stil wanne know how to make cheap heavy weapon teams.
The codex says the TC can command a friendly <regiment> Leman Russ within 6" to give it an order, there is nothing preventing the TC from ordering itself.
is there not a non character clause erataed on?
That was index. They removed that restriction in the codex.
Niiai wrote: Tank commanders can not command characters. Tank commanders are characters. I don't know where it sais that. I hope that helps, although somebody can chime in with the quote.
I stil wanne know how to make cheap heavy weapon teams.
The codex says the TC can command a friendly <regiment> Leman Russ within 6" to give it an order, there is nothing preventing the TC from ordering itself.
is there not a non character clause erataed on?
What Argonak said. Your TC can now command themselves to get their points worth.
i just use that as a fuss with hull lascannon and battle cannon.
Also opponent conceded by turn 2. His army was two sorcers a land raider a bunch of cultists and 5 terminators. He swears this was a 1500 army not sure he mixed it up with his 1000
Also 15 noise marines that infiltrated with the alpha legion trait
So I have a rules question-
I use Tallarn Ambush and also have two Artemia Hellhounds that I am considering using to outflank as a Unit. I don’t want them within 6” of each other at the end of movement because they have the potential of causing d6 mortal wounds to units within 6” of them if they explode.
The way I read the Ambush rule, at the end of the movement phase the unit is “set up” within 7” of the table edge and thus there is no “movement” per se (and thus no chance for them to move away from each other).
Is this the proper interpretation?
Niiai wrote: Cool! Whar russes are worth using? Personally I like the big cannon as well as the gatteling one.
Really, most of them are worth your time depending on if you like their fluff or looks, or if you want to reap maximum value out of your selection. For example, a Cadian Pask Punisher is one of the best ways to use a LR due to its orders and bonuses. Personally, I'd recommend the Battle Tank, Executioner, Punisher and Demolisher. If you want to use Forgeworld, the Conqueror is scary in close quarters with its coaxial stormbolter's ability. The ones that are more fluffy are the Eradicator, Exterminator and the Vanquisher.
Niiai wrote: Cool! Whar russes are worth using? Personally I like the big cannon as well as the gatteling one.
Personally I swear by the Leman Russ Conqueror with Catachan regiment tactics. It is 100% self sufficient, pretty cheap and has a very versatile weapon load out by default.
Niiai wrote: Cool! Whar russes are worth using? Personally I like the big cannon as well as the gatteling one.
Personally I swear by the Leman Russ Conqueror with Catachan regiment tactics. It is 100% self sufficient, pretty cheap and has a very versatile weapon load out by default.
The issue with us is that we both play GSC and use AM as an "add on" so we get to use the Broodbrothers Regiment which means we can't take specific <Regiment> buffs. But, then again, GSC get to use both AM and Nids so it is an okay trade off.
Cheers for confirming my issue lads
I plan on running 2 Tank Commanders w/ Battle Cannons and Lascannons with 6 Tyranid Biovores and using Tyranids/GSC as my CC threats as well.
The good old leman Russ battlecannon paired with a lascannon has served me well. It's cheap, hits like a truck, and is pretty purpose built to support infantry. Then I take between 4-6 more of them and call it a day. I run a stupid amount of infantry so things like heavy bolters and sponsons are pointless for me. I keep it purpose built and send them in pairs or 3's after things I don't like.
Close second is the executioner. It goes in the exact opposite direction. You want it to be a commander, order itself to reroll ones, and give it a lascannon and plasma sponsons. Hideously expensive for a Russ as it tips the scale at well over 200pts, but it's damage output can be even more hideous. It's a bit of a gamblers weapon, but if you have a trait to offset the gets hot rolls, its worth it. It should be held back to counter a breakthrough or until you know you can get off a volley before being shot back. I've found it's my best option if I'm only going to have 1-2 tanks. It's going to get focused even if you have 5 so it's not able to survive by Target saturation like a normal company of LRBT's can. But boy howdy I've only ever needed one turn to get it's points back. It's main weakness is honestly range, that 36" range on the plasma hurts more than you think it would. I've found worrying about mortal wounds, even if you moved and have no native rerolls, rarely matters. It will take at worst maybe 4 wounds in a particularly unlucky volley, and is unlikely to fire a second as few players will allow it to live that long. Normally all you need to say is "it's Russ with plasma for every weapon" and people will fire everything they have into it 2d6 +2d3 overcharged plasma and a lascannon is no joke.
The other variants are a bit too specialized for how I play. Eradicators would have a point but plasma fills the role. Exterminators are a waste of a hull since I can get autocannons on tauroxes and get a great transport to boot. Vanquishers don't really serve a purpose that isn't filled by the normal Russ. Punishers are unnecessary for an infantry heavy player like myself and really lack range, they can work for tank companies or mech but not infantry. Going to FW, conquerors are good but need to be in 24" of the target to get it's bonuses, and having 24" less range on the cannon hurts. Annihilators look really great, I've just never tried one, but 5 lascannon shots a turn, 4 with no penalty on the move looks good on paper. If there are other variants I'm unaware of them.
I really need to try a conqueror sometime, but I feel that it's knife fighting tendencies would not mesh well with my playstyle. Personal experience has taught me that a leman Russ within 24" has 1 to 2 turns at most of life expectancy, so while that conqueror will probably get off one hell of an opening shot, I don't see them living as long. Meanehile a typical battletank with proper infantry screens can engage at pretty much full firepower at ranges up to 72", only thing stopping it is line of sight. The range on the battlecannon has come up far more than I thought it would and let's the tanks engage almost any other threat in the game bar ludicrously more specialized weapons with 0 threat of return fire. On top of that, for games on "hamburger" or "grilled sheese" deployment, fights past 48" are a very real thing and that 72" let's you hug the table edge and still engage the other side of the board. This is important as many of the favored long range AT weapons are either lascannons and missile launchers (48" range) or plasma/ melta (ideally 6-12" range) By playing keep away, you give the tank more turns to do damage, so while it's not as initially powerful as say a conqueror turn 1, it's more likely to survive to the end of the game and deal more damage in the long run.
But that's just my experience. I'd imagine tank players are being more aggressive with their tanks and the conqueror better fits into their lists.
I really need to try a conqueror sometime, but I feel that it's knife fighting tendencies would not mesh well with my playstyle. Personal experience has taught me that a leman Russ within 24" has 1 to 2 turns at most of life expectancy, so while that conqueror will probably get off one hell of an opening shot, I don't see them living as long. Meanehile a typical battletank with proper infantry screens can engage at pretty much full firepower at ranges up to 72", only thing stopping it is line of sight. The range on the battlecannon has come up far more than I thought it would and let's the tanks engage almost any other threat in the game bar ludicrously more specialized weapons with 0 threat of return fire. On top of that, for games on "hamburger" or "grilled sheese" deployment, fights past 48" are a very real thing and that 72" let's you hug the table edge and still engage the other side of the board. This is important as many of the favored long range AT weapons are either lascannons and missile launchers (48" range) or plasma/ melta (ideally 6-12" range) By playing keep away, you give the tank more turns to do damage, so while it's not as initially powerful as say a conqueror turn 1, it's more likely to survive to the end of the game and deal more damage in the long run.
But that's just my experience. I'd imagine tank players are being more aggressive with their tanks and the conqueror better fits into their lists.
That was actually my first concern when I started using the conqueror. I was thinking that the superior range and not needing to be close would be really nice, but as I played it I found I was usually in 24 inches anyways to get the re-rolls and when it was not I found I NEVER needed more than the 48" range it has. Now I usually run with 70 guardsmen bodies who make an alright wall of bodies to tie up assault armies long enough and shooty armies will be in range of the tank anyways (Most of the time). When you go Catachan (or cadian with tank commander orders) the tank just becomes a super reliable and dependable unit that can handle just about any threat. 2d6 re-rolling both d6s, then hitting on 4s re-rolling is going to do like 6 damage on average to a t7 3+ model I think while still being good at taking at chaff and elite untis due to its rate of fire. My favorite thing though is the fact that you can buy another storm bolter so you get two little storm bolters just plinking at something haha. The only real trouble I have with it is deciding if I want to take sponsons and hunter killers. Usually I don't just because I find I am moving the tank fairly often, but hey its a cool option.
TLDR: Yeah dude totally try out the conqueror! It is awesome! <3
konst80hummel wrote: On a slightly different tone... How are you people coping with the new Death Guard? Their Disgustingly Resilient ability on everything makes it very hard to kill things. And their tank is noticeably killy. I go out of my way to win by objectives (as in seriously undermining my position for the next turn). I mainly use a Brigade with 60 guardsmen with basilisks, a Manticore, Executioner and a Punisher.
In short the more I play games of 8th the more i think Guard is very powerful against marines and Eldar but we have a problem with high resilience armies.
If they're not taking 8 to 12 plaguebursts, you should just be able to shoot them down.
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MrMoustaffa wrote: The good old leman Russ battlecannon paired with a lascannon has served me well. It's cheap, hits like a truck, and is pretty purpose built to support infantry. Then I take between 4-6 more of them and call it a day. I run a stupid amount of infantry so things like heavy bolters and sponsons are pointless for me. I keep it purpose built and send them in pairs or 3's after things I don't like.
Close second is the executioner. It goes in the exact opposite direction. You want it to be a commander, order itself to reroll ones, and give it a lascannon and plasma sponsons. Hideously expensive for a Russ as it tips the scale at well over 200pts, but it's damage output can be even more hideous. It's a bit of a gamblers weapon, but if you have a trait to offset the gets hot rolls, its worth it. It should be held back to counter a breakthrough or until you know you can get off a volley before being shot back. I've found it's my best option if I'm only going to have 1-2 tanks. It's going to get focused even if you have 5 so it's not able to survive by Target saturation like a normal company of LRBT's can. But boy howdy I've only ever needed one turn to get it's points back. It's main weakness is honestly range, that 36" range on the plasma hurts more than you think it would. I've found worrying about mortal wounds, even if you moved and have no native rerolls, rarely matters. It will take at worst maybe 4 wounds in a particularly unlucky volley, and is unlikely to fire a second as few players will allow it to live that long. Normally all you need to say is "it's Russ with plasma for every weapon" and people will fire everything they have into it 2d6 +2d3 overcharged plasma and a lascannon is no joke.
The other variants are a bit too specialized for how I play. Eradicators would have a point but plasma fills the role. Exterminators are a waste of a hull since I can get autocannons on tauroxes and get a great transport to boot. Vanquishers don't really serve a purpose that isn't filled by the normal Russ. Punishers are unnecessary for an infantry heavy player like myself and really lack range, they can work for tank companies or mech but not infantry. Going to FW, conquerors are good but need to be in 24" of the target to get it's bonuses, and having 24" less range on the cannon hurts. Annihilators look really great, I've just never tried one, but 5 lascannon shots a turn, 4 with no penalty on the move looks good on paper. If there are other variants I'm unaware of them.
I really need to try a conqueror sometime, but I feel that it's knife fighting tendencies would not mesh well with my playstyle. Personal experience has taught me that a leman Russ within 24" has 1 to 2 turns at most of life expectancy, so while that conqueror will probably get off one hell of an opening shot, I don't see them living as long. Meanehile a typical battletank with proper infantry screens can engage at pretty much full firepower at ranges up to 72", only thing stopping it is line of sight. The range on the battlecannon has come up far more than I thought it would and let's the tanks engage almost any other threat in the game bar ludicrously more specialized weapons with 0 threat of return fire. On top of that, for games on "hamburger" or "grilled sheese" deployment, fights past 48" are a very real thing and that 72" let's you hug the table edge and still engage the other side of the board. This is important as many of the favored long range AT weapons are either lascannons and missile launchers (48" range) or plasma/ melta (ideally 6-12" range) By playing keep away, you give the tank more turns to do damage, so while it's not as initially powerful as say a conqueror turn 1, it's more likely to survive to the end of the game and deal more damage in the long run.
But that's just my experience. I'd imagine tank players are being more aggressive with their tanks and the conqueror better fits into their lists.
play with enough tanks, and you can use tanks to block LoS for your tanks
davidgr33n wrote: So I have a rules question-
I use Tallarn Ambush and also have two Artemia Hellhounds that I am considering using to outflank as a Unit. I don’t want them within 6” of each other at the end of movement because they have the potential of causing d6 mortal wounds to units within 6” of them if they explode.
The way I read the Ambush rule, at the end of the movement phase the unit is “set up” within 7” of the table edge and thus there is no “movement” per se (and thus no chance for them to move away from each other).
Is this the proper interpretation?
I'm afraid you're right, according to the erratta then count as moving their full distance so unless you successfully make a charge with one of them (not a great idea) they'll finish your turn within 6" of each other. The hellhound actually explodes on a 4+ rather than the Devil dog or Bane Wolf which only explode on a 6+ . I've tried ambushing two hellhounds and one Devil Dog putting the Devil Dog in the middle. It means that if one of the hellhounds explodes it only takes mortal wounds off one of the other vehicles. I keep a CP re-roll aside for this specifically for the d6 number of wounds.
Actually, the Codex Hellhounds all explode on a 6+, but I haven’t seen any erratas for it.
The FW Artemia pattern Hellhound explodes on a 4+ and causes D6 mortal wounds rather than the D3 mortal wounds of the Codex versions. It’s the main reason I use them, they go into the middle of my opponents lines flaming everything up and daring them to charge into it.
konst80hummel wrote: On a slightly different tone... How are you people coping with the new Death Guard? Their Disgustingly Resilient ability on everything makes it very hard to kill things. And their tank is noticeably killy. I go out of my way to win by objectives (as in seriously undermining my position for the next turn). I mainly use a Brigade with 60 guardsmen with basilisks, a Manticore, Executioner and a Punisher.
In short the more I play games of 8th the more i think Guard is very powerful against marines and Eldar but we have a problem with high resilience armies.
Multi damage really ruins plague marines day. A manticore still wounds them on a 2+ and does d3 damage meaning they are only really slightly more survivable to it then a regular marine. The things that are VERY annoying are the vehicles. High toughness a demon save and a DR save makes them a real PITA to remove sometimes. That said, you deal with them like you deal with most things, more gun.
Agreed. I take Artemia Hellhounds in my lists specifically for multi-wound models. Also, Rough Riders with their D3 wounds on the charge could do a little damage, though I wouldn’t count on too much... I’ve charged Terminators with 5 RRs and taken out 2 several times, not a bad return on investment, though they usually get wiped out afterwards.
I have my brother, a friend of mine, and 3 other dg payers in my area so I play DG a LOT, haven't lost a game yet with my guard(my list is good but not hyper tuned) v any of them yet. And I can say the best weapons against them are high AP guns, no joke mvp almost every game are my two tempestus Command squads with hot shot volley guns. Turning the marines 3+ into a 5+ is huge, even with Dr they drop like flies (hehe)
so one thing i'm learning with my guard, and maybe someone else can tell me if they feel the same, is that infantry squads should be run buck naked and ran mobile. I really feel from my last game i should have kept my heavy weapons into one team and ran up the infantry. Munching on a guard squad should feel like eating a potato chip... tasty but unsatisfying, hollow without a sense of accomplishment. leaving you to want more.
davidgr33n wrote: Actually, the Codex Hellhounds all explode on a 6+, but I haven’t seen any erratas for it.
The FW Artemia pattern Hellhound explodes on a 4+ and causes D6 mortal wounds rather than the D3 mortal wounds of the Codex versions. It’s the main reason I use them, they go into the middle of my opponents lines flaming everything up and daring them to charge into it.
Codex Hellhounds explode on 4+. "Add two to any results in the case of the Hellhound". Ergo Explodes on a 4+. Devil Dog and Bane Wolf still only explode on a 6+. Thats why I put the Devil Dog in the middle.
davidgr33n wrote: Actually, the Codex Hellhounds all explode on a 6+, but I haven’t seen any erratas for it.
The FW Artemia pattern Hellhound explodes on a 4+ and causes D6 mortal wounds rather than the D3 mortal wounds of the Codex versions. It’s the main reason I use them, they go into the middle of my opponents lines flaming everything up and daring them to charge into it.
Codex Hellhounds explode on 4+. "Add two to any results in the case of the Hellhound". Ergo Explodes on a 4+. Devil Dog and Bane Wolf still only explode on a 6+. Thats why I put the Devil Dog in the middle.
The problem is that the Index Hellhound rules are superseded by the Codex Hellhound rules, which does not include that verbiage. They all explode on a 6 now.
(I have the digital “Enhanced Version” of the Codex, which hasn’t always been correct, so if my digital copy is wrong I’d be happy to know).
Played my first game with guard in 8th yesterday. I took two large sqauds of Rough riders (one with flamers, one with melta's). Mainly because i just like lots of horses on the table. Normally I would use DKOK Death Riders but I gave the Rough riders a shot this time. Sadly I was quite disapointed: only one attack with the lance is not something to write home about.
Please advice on prefered tactics for my favorite models when using them as codex Rough riders?
Singleton Mosby wrote: Played my first game with guard in 8th yesterday. I took two large sqauds of Rough riders (one with flamers, one with melta's). Mainly because i just like lots of horses on the table. Normally I would use DKOK Death Riders but I gave the Rough riders a shot this time. Sadly I was quite disapointed: only one attack with the lance is not something to write home about.
Please advice on prefered tactics for my favorite models when using them as codex Rough riders?
Rough Riders are very good at reaching far off OBJs and being a nuisance. They are not a very effective combat unit. Don't expect them to kill much. I tie up vehicles, charge from out of LoS, etc. Be sneaky with them because they will die easily.
Singleton Mosby wrote: Played my first game with guard in 8th yesterday. I took two large sqauds of Rough riders (one with flamers, one with melta's). Mainly because i just like lots of horses on the table. Normally I would use DKOK Death Riders but I gave the Rough riders a shot this time. Sadly I was quite disapointed: only one attack with the lance is not something to write home about.
Please advice on prefered tactics for my favorite models when using them as codex Rough riders?
Rough Riders are very good at reaching far off OBJs and being a nuisance. They are not a very effective combat unit. Don't expect them to kill much. I tie up vehicles, charge from out of LoS, etc. Be sneaky with them because they will die easily.
Too bad. That's not the roles I anticipated for them. A well, moar tanks it is then.
Is the chimera worth running? I'm considering getting the AM battleforce to supplement the SC box I already have and I'd rather not get a useless vehicle on top of two useless commisars.
Singleton Mosby wrote: Played my first game with guard in 8th yesterday. I took two large sqauds of Rough riders (one with flamers, one with melta's). Mainly because i just like lots of horses on the table. Normally I would use DKOK Death Riders but I gave the Rough riders a shot this time. Sadly I was quite disapointed: only one attack with the lance is not something to write home about.
Please advice on prefered tactics for my favorite models when using them as codex Rough riders?
I use 3×5 with 2 plasma guns per squad to fill out a Cadian brigade.
I either aim them at backfield dakka units or get them within 12" of my planned target for overlapping fields of fire. The +1 to hit makes over charging safe.
They are a useful suicide squad IMO. I'm pretty good at finding a place my opponent doesn't want them to be and they often focus too much firepower into the rough riders.
Hi Guys, im planning on running a small 400-500pt aux detachment to my primaris force and would like to run pretty much all infantry- im thinking around 4x 10 infantry with a plasma in each, 2x 3 heavy weapon squads (all AC or mix of AC and Las) and then 3x company commander so that nobody goes without orders. this comes in at around 400pts.
My question is; whilst im more than happy for the primaris to claim the glory, is there any way of inserting some fast hard hitting infantry in with melta/plasma to really disrupt and damage the enemy in their own end? such as veterans/tempestus/special weapons teams?
Yup, outflanking Tallarn squads and Scions of all kinds are mostly what you're looking for. Or deep striking Elysian Drop Troop if you fancy some forgeworld in your collection.
Singleton Mosby wrote: Played my first game with guard in 8th yesterday. I took two large sqauds of Rough riders (one with flamers, one with melta's). Mainly because i just like lots of horses on the table. Normally I would use DKOK Death Riders but I gave the Rough riders a shot this time. Sadly I was quite disapointed: only one attack with the lance is not something to write home about.
Please advice on prefered tactics for my favorite models when using them as codex Rough riders?
I use 3×5 with 2 plasma guns per squad to fill out a Cadian brigade.
I either aim them at backfield dakka units or get them within 12" of my planned target for overlapping fields of fire. The +1 to hit makes over charging safe.
They are a useful suicide squad IMO. I'm pretty good at finding a place my opponent doesn't want them to be and they often focus too much firepower into the rough riders.
Yes the Rough Riders 1A coupled with WS4 means they’ll be taking very few models out max per charge.
I run mine with 5 Riders, 2 with meltaguns. I will bring them on close to Multiwound models: the meltas don’t overheat and so are safer to fire with more potential damage, and the Sgt has two attacks, so if I can get the charge off I’ll still have 4 lance attacks and the horses attacks as well. Since they do D3 damage I always try to pounce on multiwound models, that way if they connect they are putting out damage. This fast moving cheap unit becomes a distraction carnifex for your opponent.
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Process wrote: Hi Guys, im planning on running a small 400-500pt aux detachment to my primaris force and would like to run pretty much all infantry- im thinking around 4x 10 infantry with a plasma in each, 2x 3 heavy weapon squads (all AC or mix of AC and Las) and then 3x company commander so that nobody goes without orders. this comes in at around 400pts.
My question is; whilst im more than happy for the primaris to claim the glory, is there any way of inserting some fast hard hitting infantry in with melta/plasma to really disrupt and damage the enemy in their own end? such as veterans/tempestus/special weapons teams?
My suggestion would be take a Tallarn detachment and take the Ambush stratagem, which allows you to outflank 3 units. Take a commander for Orders, a command squad and SWS squad full of your preferred weapons. If you’re willing to invest a little more, take the Dagger of Tusakh to take two more units outflanking.
TillForPie wrote: Is the chimera worth running? I'm considering getting the AM battleforce to supplement the SC box I already have and I'd rather not get a useless vehicle on top of two useless commisars.
Most people on here tend to think the Chimera is overpriced, which it may very well be, however, in all of the games I've tried them out in, they have done a remarkable job keeping my squishy infantry alive. It is kind of an odd duck in that we could just issue MMM! to get our infantry running just as fast as the Chimera and save all those points for 2 more squads of infantry. I suppose it depends on your playstyle and meta. They are quite fun to use and offer interesting tactical options. Most would probably just rather have 20 more bodies, however.
The rules state if you have more than one melee weapon (in this case a chainsword and a lance) you have to choose which melee weapon you will use for each attack you have. The Sergeant for example has two attacks, so you could split his attacks- one with the lance and one with the chainsword (and since using a chainsword gives you an extra attack you’d have a 2nd chainsword attack).
The trampling hooves are additional attacks coming from the steed so those are good.
On average:
With 10 Riders on the charge vs MEQ you’ll be taking out 3 models.
With 10 Riders on the charge vs 2-wound models you’ll be taking out the 3 models as well due to the average 2 wounds per hit.
Which is why I always try to charge TEQ or other 2-wound models.
I thought the consensus for chainswords was you could use them for an additional attack without using them for your primary attacks as well, much like Tyranids with tail and head weapons use them as additional attacks to their claw attacks rather than instead or forcing them to make extra attacks with such?
Automatically Appended Next Post: In fact the entry is pretty specific 'Each time the model fights, it may make an additional attack with this weapon.'
AdmiralHalsey wrote: I thought the consensus for chainswords was you could use them for an additional attack without using them for your primary attacks as well, much like Tyranids with tail and head weapons use them as additional attacks to their claw attacks rather than instead or forcing them to make extra attacks with such?
Automatically Appended Next Post: In fact the entry is pretty specific 'Each time the model fights, it may make an additional attack with this weapon.'
Index Imperium, page 18.
Perhaps I am interpreting the rules wrong. My understanding is - the BRB says choose a weapon for your attack, if you choose the chainsword, the chainsword specific rule states you get an extra attack using it.
If I’m wrong and it’s as you say, then I’d certainly like consensus since that would be a great advantage.
“If a model has more than one melee weapon and can make several close combat attacks, it can split its attacks between these weapons however you wish – declare how you will divide the attacks before any dice are rolled.”
The converse is also true-
if a model has more than one melee weapon but can only make one close combat attack it cannot split it its attacks between these weapons.
It is either / or, it cannot be both which is what is being implied to the chainsword. The chainsword extra attack only holds true for using the chainsword.
So not sure if anyone else has had a chance to use Marbo with his new rules yet. I've been playing him with the 65pt cost GW posted on their Facebook post.
So far, it's looking like the best ability use is between the stalk with knife and detonating concealed explosives. Stalk with knife has a better chance of killing things like eldar rangers or cheap backfield objective holders, while concealed explosives helps draw heat away from other units and hit 10 man elite units like space marines or vehicles. Snipe with pistol pistol hasn't had an opportunity to be useful yet but I could see it being powerful against eldar or IG characters.
One tip I realized upon using him. When you drop him in the backfield, I've seen people have a tendency to sick a character after him once they realize his attacks have no AP. Since Marbo is catachan, he's actually a good choice for the vicious traps stratagem. Essentially you get an extra "concealed explosives" attempt as they charge in. Using this gives you a good chance of wounding most characters to the point marbo can kill them if he survives the opponents charge. Not really game winning in and of itself, but if you combined this with "snipe with pistol" you could take down most average generic characters, or at least seriously bloody them. A niche tactic to be sure, but something to keep in mind.
How are you guys adapting to ITC Champions missions? I've gotten about six games in with those missions and it feels like AM loses a lot of its advantages compared to normal 40k. The fact that 25% of the primary points are like playing a miniature round of No Mercy really hurts.
Add in things like Tank Commanders and Pask offering up an easy four or five points (Kingslayer + BGH + Primary if it's their first kill of the turn) and it feels like unit selection gets even more limited.
Scions have been next to useless since they feed my enemy so many kill points. Even if I trade up on raw points value, it's still a trade that benefits my opponent in terms of winning the game. Scout Sentinels and Ratlings have similarly just been feeding easy points even if the DS denial is amazing.
I'm seriously considering switching my LVO army to Nids because I'm running out of ideas.
“If a model has more than one melee weapon and can make several close combat attacks, it can split its attacks between these weapons however you wish – declare how you will divide the attacks before any dice are rolled.”
The converse is also true-
if a model has more than one melee weapon but can only make one close combat attack it cannot split it its attacks between these weapons.
It is either / or, it cannot be both which is what is being implied to the chainsword. The chainsword extra attack only holds true for using the chainsword.
The chainsword rules are:
Each time the bearer fights, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon
It clearly says fights, not attacks with this weapon. The extra chainsword attack is free and in addition, RAW.
RogueApiary wrote: How are you guys adapting to ITC Champions missions? I've gotten about six games in with those missions and it feels like AM loses a lot of its advantages compared to normal 40k. The fact that 25% of the primary points are like playing a miniature round of No Mercy really hurts.
Add in things like Tank Commanders and Pask offering up an easy four or five points (Kingslayer + BGH + Primary if it's their first kill of the turn) and it feels like unit selection gets even more limited.
Scions have been next to useless since they feed my enemy so many kill points. Even if I trade up on raw points value, it's still a trade that benefits my opponent in terms of winning the game. Scout Sentinels and Ratlings have similarly just been feeding easy points even if the DS denial is amazing.
I'm seriously considering switching my LVO army to Nids because I'm running out of ideas.
We are hurt bad by kill the most but if we go 2nd it's easy to equal things out with holding more objectives. If we go 1st we have an extremely punishing alpha strike.
Don't take tank commanders. As long as they are avoided BGH is the only thing we need to worry about. Infantry squads are 9 models with a heavy weapon team and are immune to the reaper. I'm diversifying between infantry and vehicles with 2 Russ, 3 basilisks, and the rest of the army is not vehicles.
davidgr33n wrote: Actually, the Codex Hellhounds all explode on a 6+, but I haven’t seen any erratas for it.
The FW Artemia pattern Hellhound explodes on a 4+ and causes D6 mortal wounds rather than the D3 mortal wounds of the Codex versions. It’s the main reason I use them, they go into the middle of my opponents lines flaming everything up and daring them to charge into it.
Codex Hellhounds explode on 4+. "Add two to any results in the case of the Hellhound". Ergo Explodes on a 4+. Devil Dog and Bane Wolf still only explode on a 6+. Thats why I put the Devil Dog in the middle.
The problem is that the Index Hellhound rules are superseded by the Codex Hellhound rules, which does not include that verbiage. They all explode on a 6 now.
(I have the digital “Enhanced Version” of the Codex, which hasn’t always been correct, so if my digital copy is wrong I’d be happy to know).
I'm afraid it's +2 to all explosion in 2 different versions of the codex I've seen (one hard copy, one black library softcopy version).
I actually used tallarn ambush on a unit of 3 this weekend (two hell hounds (inferno cannon and hull-multimelta), one Devil Dog(melta cannon and hull HB)) They hit hard but explode harder. I used play orks so I kind of enjoy the insanity of three promethium filled vehicles rocking up far too close for comfort.
I won the role to go first. I brought the unit of flamebelching vehicles on as close to my opponents front line as possible . Shot all the Melta weapons at my opponents Pask (we were playing Guard V Guard) and the inferno cannons at nearby infantry. One point to note is that keeping all three vehicles 9" away from enemy units, within 7" of the board and within 6" of each other means its unlikely they all get within firing range especially if the enemy has deployed in a gunline in their deployment zone.
On my opponents turn One Hellhound was brought down to 1 wound after my opponents shooting phase with what I think was pretty average shooting.
In my next turn I then messed up by trying to move and advance the damaged Hellhound into explosion range of my opponents Pask but its 4" movement and pathetic advance meant he was too far. I should have just moved him the 4" and then used the inferno cannon on some nearby infantry but I'm not used of using flamers and their associated benefits (auto hit )
I intentionally moved the two undamaged Hellhound and Devil Dog at least 6" away from the soon to explode Hellhound. Unfortunately I then charged the Devil Dog into a company commander (in my mind so it couldn't be shot in my opponents shooting phase) but this brought the devil dog within 6" of the damaged Hellhound which obviously exploded the next turn. The explosion only caused 1 mortal wounds but it meant a lesson was learned.
My take aways were
1) Ambush is not as good as Deep strike. The 9" away from enemy units, within 7" of the board and within 6" of each other, is restrictive but not world ending.
2) The Devil Dog should be kept in the middle so that in the case the center vehicle is destroyed the two neighboring vehicles either side are only hit on a roll of 6
3) Hellhounds are just as accurate with 1 wound as 12 thanks to their flamers
4) Ambush is a great way of getting melta guns within 12" of the enemy.
5) Resist the temptation to Ambush on the first turn. If I'd waited for my opponent to move out of his deployment I could have thrown my Hellhounds into the middle of his troops rather than infront of (although to be fair VERY close to) his gunline.
6) Maybe pop smoke with all three hellhounds variants turn one. My opponent didn't shoot at a single other thing the turn they arrived. I could also have ambushed them close to an astropath. If I gave the devil dog an additional -1 to hit it would probably maintain its ability to shoot and hit with its melta cannon on 4+.
7) Maybe make the hellhounds cheaper by giving them hullmounted HB rather than the 20 point melta guns.
8) Don't charge a Devil Dog into close combat (and therefor within 6" of a soon to explode Hellhoung) like an idiot.
9) Keep a CP for the explode role.
10) Take the grand Strategist trait not only for the 5+ regain of CP but also the one free reroll per battle. Its not a CP so can be used in the same phase, but not to reroll a reroll (in this case I used a CP to reroll the explode on a 4+ and then the grand strategist reroll for the number of mortal wounds... it meant that despite the hellhound exploding even after a reroll I still only took 1 mortal wound)
Niiai wrote: Tank commanders can not command characters. Tank commanders are characters. I don't know where it sais that. I hope that helps, although somebody can chime in with the quote.
I stil wanne know how to make cheap heavy weapon teams.
The codex says the TC can command a friendly <regiment> Leman Russ within 6" to give it an order, there is nothing preventing the TC from ordering itself.
is there not a non character clause erataed on?
TC ruling is weird. They rolled it back to the original language. GW confirmed that this was not a mistake.
Don't take tank commanders. As long as they are avoided BGH is the only thing we need to worry about. Infantry squads are 9 models with a heavy weapon team and are immune to the reaper. I'm diversifying between infantry and vehicles with 2 Russ, 3 basilisks, and the rest of the army is not vehicles.
Damn son I didn't even think of the whole bringing the number of models down to 9 by creating a heavy weapon team. Very sneaky. Tank Commanders/Pask are a far too juicy target in ITC. I'm swapping out Pask for Celestine (she will not be my warlord)
I have been using the combine squad stratagem per turn to limit the number of full units my opponent can kill. The moral check on a d3 stratagem is also pretty good at keeping units alive. While these won't gain you points they may prevent your opponent from getting 2 (did you kill a full unit, did you kill more than your opponent).
The ITC missions are different but I think they are pretty cool. A couple more layers of strategy. AMs selection of cheap objective holding infantry and cheap deep striking/ambushing units means recon is a great secondary.
I run catachan with harker, two manticores and one basi. Very little can withstand a turn of shooting from this combo.
I was just wondering, when it comes to armies that have a -1 to hit, does that mean I get to re-roll all 2s and 1s if harker is within 6". Its a stretch I know but I'm just looking for some clarity.
AM Artillery is really strong. Manticores are -2 AP, which is good and their 'limitation' is the 4 shots per game, but what game isn't done after 4 turns?
AM Artillery is really strong. Manticores are -2 AP, which is good and their 'limitation' is the 4 shots per game, but what game isn't done after 4 turns?
ITC missions tend to go the full 6 so Basilisks have an advantage there. After the 4th turn the Manticores end up blocking, charging and sometimes even holding objectives.
I just acquired 2 Tauros Venators. I absolutely love the look of them and cannot wait to get them painted. Anybody have any experience with them? I made up a chart comparing them to Scout and Armored Sentinels and HWTs. They are all quite difficult to gauge effectiveness.
Don't take tank commanders. As long as they are avoided BGH is the only thing we need to worry about. Infantry squads are 9 models with a heavy weapon team and are immune to the reaper. I'm diversifying between infantry and vehicles with 2 Russ, 3 basilisks, and the rest of the army is not vehicles.
Damn son I didn't even think of the whole bringing the number of models down to 9 by creating a heavy weapon team. Very sneaky. Tank Commanders/Pask are a far too juicy target in ITC. I'm swapping out Pask for Celestine (she will not be my warlord)
I have been using the combine squad stratagem per turn to limit the number of full units my opponent can kill. The moral check on a d3 stratagem is also pretty good at keeping units alive. While these won't gain you points they may prevent your opponent from getting 2 (did you kill a full unit, did you kill more than your opponent).
The ITC missions are different but I think they are pretty cool. A couple more layers of strategy. AMs selection of cheap objective holding infantry and cheap deep striking/ambushing units means recon is a great secondary.
Yea Recon is free points. Lots of cheap reserves and 14-24" move on infantry when they MMM.
Colonel Cross wrote: I just acquired 2 Tauros Venators. I absolutely love the look of them and cannot wait to get them painted. Anybody have any experience with them? I made up a chart comparing them to Scout and Armored Sentinels and HWTs. They are all quite difficult to gauge effectiveness.
I love them too. Biggest advantage in my eyes, is the deep strike and not suffering the -1 to hit after moving. I wouldn’t compare them to Sentinels though, cos I feel they fill different roles. Sentinels to me are all about being setup on the table and using the scout move to control ground, whereas the Venators are all about fast anti-tank, able to be pretty much wherever you need them.
I'm rethinking my 3 elites choices for a Cadian brigade.
Astropaths are still cost effective even after they went up to 30 points, but their powers can be negated by good target priority. I have so many units it doesn't make any sense to shoot at the one with psychic buffs. Leman Russ has a 2+ and or a -1 to hit fine just blow up the basilisks instead. Those awesome powers don't really kick in until turn 3 or 4 when there is not plenty of other targets and IMO turns 1 and 2 are more important. If the dakka is savage enough in the first couple of turns the dead units don't shoot back.
The Ogre body guard is a good counter assault unit, but only 1 can take the relic and on a point for point basis we have another unit that hits harder at close range.
SWS hit the hardest for the least amount of points. Hid them out of LOS and wait for units to come towards vulnerable back line units so pretty much the same tactic as a cyclops. 2 squads are double plasma and demo charge, the 3rd is triple demo charge that I'll sink a CP into. I was running 5 cyclops before the nerf now it’s 2 and SWS. It's not as good as the pre nerf 40 point cyclops, but that was stupid OP and now I have points freed up with my elites spending totalling to 125 points.
The elites slot took the biggest beating in nerfs. When the index dropped, we were excited to have a great range of elites. A lot of them got at least a taste of the nerf bat:
Astropaths doubled in price
Command squads became tied to officers, plus the plasma/melta price hike
Veterans had the plasma/melta price hike
Ratlings even went up in price
There is good stuff there still, but it's not as much of a strength as it was in the summer. I really like the MoO with basilisks (I run catachan a lot), and I like Harker (ditto). The astropath still cancels cover, which can be clutch.
davidgr33n wrote: Can SWS still take demo charges? I thought the Codex replaced the Index options.
Yes.
1) Get the Imperium 2 Index.
2) Find the entry for the Special Weapons Squad within. The rules for Demolition Charges are found there.
3) Use this entry.
Or get the Battlescribe and check its entry for SWS, if you happen to be still unclear how to include them.
Also? You can use Rough Riders too because they are in the Index.
I second having a cheap plasma SWS or two in a foot list. If you take them in large numbers they'll be seen as a threat and gunned down in short order. One or two can hide out of LOS and act as a good counter unit to react to enemies advancing towards your lines. they should get at least one good volley off!
In my Guard / Sisters Force I take 2 plasma Commando units (8 plasma guns in 2 Command Squads) and 3 plasmas in a SWS, along with an all Plasma / Lascannon Tank Commander and a Commander with plasma pistol and “Old Grudges”, and outflank them all together to take out whatever needs to be smashed.
I call it my Tallarn bomb lol
davidgr33n wrote: In my Guard / Sisters Force I take 2 plasma Commando units (8 plasma guns in 2 Command Squads) and 3 plasmas in a SWS, along with an all Plasma / Lascannon Tank Commander and a Commander with plasma pistol and “Old Grudges”, and outflank them all together to take out whatever needs to be smashed.
I call it my Tallarn bomb lol
So you use the ambush stratagem (3 CPs) for the tank and two squads and then the dagger of tusakh for the commander and the last infantry? I like the idea of making best use of "old grudges". Are you paying an extra CP to allow access to more than one relic or is the dagger your only one?
Do you not find that by ambushing the warlord so close to the enemy you're giving up a lot of points easily. (if you're playing ITC that could be 1 for headhunter, 1 for slay the warlord and 1 for a slaying a unit) The small unit sizes of the SWS and command squads means they're easy to kill. Its one of the reasons I'm moving away from the classic deepstrike a MT command squad with plasma rifles and a MT commander within rapid fire range. Sure they do a reasonable amount of damage but they were gone the next turn giving my opponent 2 unit destroyed and a character (2 ITC points at a min)
I'm looking at doing something similar with the ambush and dagger combo (I pay the 3CP in order to take the aquilla for my warlord (who is hiding right at the back of my deployment), the dagger and the deathmask for my ogryn bodyguard) I'm using the tallarn ambush rule to ambush a unit of 2 Hellhounds (their pretty resilient and will still be able to shoot their inferno cannon with no penalties even if they are on one wound) and two bog standard infantry sqauds. I use the dagger on a commander (not my warlord) and another infantry squad.
The hellhounds come on when and where they can cause the most damage while when I bring on the infantry squads I use a stratagem to combine squads then can order the 20 man squad and the remaining 10 man squad to either FRFSRF or Move Move Move them so they compete for an objective. Shooting the 20 man squad off an objective is no easy task especially if you save some CPs for take cover and moral tests on a D3.
If I do take an extra Relic it’s Kurov’s Aquila on the Tank Commander.
You’re right about the points given by the outflanking Warlord, remember though they’ve got to kill all the other units in front of him before they can target him. Yes my units are small, but I don’t bring them on unsupported unless there’s a major target I must get rid of that I can’t get support to. By support I mean that I bring all my other forces to the side of the table I’m flanking.
For support I have 2 Artemia Hellhounds plus Celestine and 6 Sisters Repressors each loaded with 5 Stormbolter-hauling Dominions that can shoot out of the tank (plus each Repressor has 2 Stormbolters and a Heavy Flamer and can charge with WS5 and 9 Str6 attacks against infantry). In my backfield I leave 2 mortar squads to hold any Objectives.
My basic strategy is to isolate a portion of my opponents forces and delete it as quickly as possible then moving on to objectives. An opponent who wants to take out my small elite units can but I always give them lots to think about on that flank.
I find taking Old Grudges with all those elite units coming in with my Commander can become a psychological benefit against some opponents in their deployment. I don’t always target the most powerful units either, sometimes it’s their most lavishly painted unit, sometimes it’s a blob unit, it’s more a ploy to disrupt their deployment.
The sheer number of small units AM can bring definitely gives your opponent lots to think about.
I didn't realise the LRBT you were bringing was a tank commander which is another ITC point.
I'm just spit balling since I'm trying something similar but would you not consider changing him to a normal LRBT with Punisher Gatling cannon and a flamer. I get your TC could shoot the plasma at BS 3+(unfortunately only once), reroll 1s to hit and all failed wounds (I really do like the synergy with the grudges trait) but I'd be concerned about being charged the following turn. 20 punisher shots + heavy flamer to anyone charging would probably be enough of a deterrent. Also I think the punisher cannon benefits more from the reroll wounds whether its a TC or bog standard LRBT.
How do you find the placement of screening units for your tank if you're ambushing from the side? I've found the 7" from the side rule prohibitive in terms of space. Even if you placed the Russ sideways when it comes on (roughly 4") and then the screen of SWS or Commandos infront (assuming 1" bases) the opponent will be able to consolidate into the tank after fighting with the screen (assuming they haven't been wiped out)
I'm waiting out on a delivery of Celestine for my army. (I've gone full Imperium soup and purchased a jet pack librarian, culexus assassin and Celestine) Have you tried using her with seraphims?
The beauty of the Ambush rule is that the units don’t have to come on together or within any distance to each other. This gives flexibility when you bring them on and is one of the considerations when I chose the Plasma Tank Commander. If I find I can screen him with my onboard units (Repressors / Dominions or Hellhounds) then I’ll bring him on close to my Grudges Commander for the Grudges benefit. If not then he can come on far enough away to shoot his 36” weapons and be safe from charges. Remember too, even coming on from a flank he can still use his Tallarn tank order to move 6” after he shoots.
I don’t like standard tanks for their BS4 , plus I calculate the cost of needing a 2nd commander to fill out a battalion, so in my mind he’s 30 points cheaper.
I’m foremost a Sisters player, they are too limited for me at the moment which is why I’m allying Tallarn. But Seraphim are great if you only take one or max two squads. I dont because I can’t fit in a 7th Fast Attack in my outrider detachment and I prefer the Dominions in Repressors.
With the extra ActofFaith Celestine gives they can move up field with her and tie up tanks (how I run them). They won’t last long though as they’re very fragile.
I'm running a footguard list with a primaris psyker and was wondering what the best use would be for the psyker in buffing all of those infantry and vet squads.
What ITC mission are you playing where "killpoints" is on a by unit basis? Every one I've played, other than things like first blood or big game Hunter, had the killpoijts assigned by power level. Just curious because I wonder if I'm playing older ITC missions or something. We thought it was standard kill points too until we reread the mission.
So for example, I could lose 3 infantry squads and still come out ahead of another player who lost a Leman Russ. It's been a huge boon for me running primarily infantry because I'll use morale shenanigans to keep a survivor or two alive. A single enemy character or vehicle can often make up for 30 - 40 infantry I've lost, or be a straight trade for a tank.
MrMoustaffa wrote: What ITC mission are you playing where "killpoints" is on a by unit basis? Every one I've played, other than things like first blood or big game Hunter, had the killpoijts assigned by power level. Just curious because I wonder if I'm playing older ITC missions or something. We thought it was standard kill points too until we reread the mission.
So for example, I could lose 3 infantry squads and still come out ahead of another player who lost a Leman Russ. It's been a huge boon for me running primarily infantry because I'll use morale shenanigans to keep a survivor or two alive. A single enemy character or vehicle can often make up for 30 - 40 infantry I've lost, or be a straight trade for a tank.
ITC Champions missions have four primary points per round. Did you hold one objective at end of turn, did you kill a unit at end of turn, did you kill more units than the opponent at end of round, and do you hold more objectives than the opponent at end of round.
Given the spread for 2/3rds of my losses in that format were four points or less, that killed more end of round primary is a big deal for me.
It's caused me to drop every HWS/Ratlings/Scion/Scout Sentinel from my army because of how fragile they are. Hopefully I can get in a test game or two before LVO.
Ah well that screws IG pretty good if you take any infantry whatsoever. Seems heavily biased toward armies like Death Guard and superheavies but what do I know, I'm not a major tournament player.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Ah well that screws IG pretty good if you take any infantry whatsoever. Seems heavily biased toward armies like Death Guard and superheavies but what do I know, I'm not a major tournament player.
The secondary missions are a great balance to that, you have your choice of several different options that range from getting one vp from killing something with more than ten wounds, or one vp for having a guy in all four quadrants at the end of each turn. You can score a total of 16 secondary objectives and building your list to give up as few of these as possible while.nabbing them from your opponent are huge factors when building for lvo(such as getting 1 VP for killing a unit at least 10 models or 2 for killing a unit with 20, so making squads of 19 gives you the most safety there)
MrMoustaffa wrote: Ah well that screws IG pretty good if you take any infantry whatsoever. Seems heavily biased toward armies like Death Guard and superheavies but what do I know, I'm not a major tournament player.
The secondary missions are a great balance to that, you have your choice of several different options that range from getting one vp from killing something with more than ten wounds, or one vp for having a guy in all four quadrants at the end of each turn. You can score a total of 16 secondary objectives and building your list to give up as few of these as possible while.nabbing them from your opponent are huge factors when building for lvo(such as getting 1 VP for killing a unit at least 10 models or 2 for killing a unit with 20, so making squads of 19 gives you the most safety there)
Where can I find the info on ITC missions objective points?
So I habe some severe problems dealing with Magnus...
It seems like he will lose his rerolling invulns of 1, but in return gets a -1 to hit spell, which even increases his survivability...
So how are you guys dealing with him. And please don't suggest Lascanons, they are terrible because of his invuln.
lash92 wrote: So I habe some severe problems dealing with Magnus...
It seems like he will lose his rerolling invulns of 1, but in return gets a -1 to hit spell, which even increases his survivability...
So how are you guys dealing with him. And please don't suggest Lascanons, they are terrible because of his invuln.
Cadian Relic + overlapping fields of fire on your biggest guns should take him down. A battalion of Plasma Scions with Laurels of Command to give reroll 1's to hit and reroll all wounds also should mess him up pretty good.
lash92 wrote: So I habe some severe problems dealing with Magnus... It seems like he will lose his rerolling invulns of 1, but in return gets a -1 to hit spell, which even increases his survivability...
So how are you guys dealing with him. And please don't suggest Lascanons, they are terrible because of his invuln.
Magnus loses a lot with the TS codex.
1) -1 to hit against BS4 is mathematically equivalent to reroll 1 on 3++, but is worse against BS3+ 2) Changeling no longer gives him -1 to hit, so he is even more vulnerable turn 1. 3) Fixed warlord trait means that he longer has 6+++ (can get it back with changeling) 4) He know needs to cast 3 powers turn 1 (+1 inv, -1 hit, warp time), which means no more smite and higher chances to fail one.
FRFSFR combined with vengeance for cadia is usually good for a couple of wounds from a basic infantry squad.
He's a good target for smites and psychic Maelstrom even with his denying powers. A culexus would hamper his psychic abilities and ability to deny with this. Having psykers about to attempt to deny his -1 to hit would be a good idea.
In theory our best ranged weapons to bring him down are probably manticores, battle cannons + mortars. Grenade launchers and autocannons might also be worth a look too as they deal multiple damage and don't pay for good AP.
The cadian overlapping fields of fire stratagem could be helpful if you're going to unload your whole army into him.
He's pretty much always going to be a pain to take down though if he gets that -1 to hit up.
lash92 wrote: So I habe some severe problems dealing with Magnus...
It seems like he will lose his rerolling invulns of 1, but in return gets a -1 to hit spell, which even increases his survivability...
So how are you guys dealing with him. And please don't suggest Lascanons, they are terrible because of his invuln.
An imperium detachment containing a space marine Librarian and the Culexus Assassin and if you have the points Celestine are an excellent counter if used together. The Librarian should take the physic spells "Null zone" which removes any enemy invulnerable saves. He also has another physic spell that means he'll fight first in cc until this next psychic phase.
Get the Librarian within 6" of magnus then finish him off with the Culexus anti psyche weaponry or Celestines general badassery.
lash92 wrote: So I habe some severe problems dealing with Magnus...
It seems like he will lose his rerolling invulns of 1, but in return gets a -1 to hit spell, which even increases his survivability...
So how are you guys dealing with him. And please don't suggest Lascanons, they are terrible because of his invuln.
Magnus loses a lot with the TS codex.
1) -1 to hit against BS4 is mathematically equivalent to reroll 1 on 3++, but is worse against BS3+
2) Changeling no longer gives him -1 to hit, so he is even more vulnerable turn 1.
3) Fixed warlord trait means that he longer has 6+++ (can get it back with changeling)
4) He know needs to cast 3 powers turn 1 (+1 inv, -1 hit, warp time), which means no more smite and higher chances to fail one.
He also increased in cost by 30 points.
Good to see that he gets toned down a bit!
But are you sure about your first statement?
I compared a 10 man Skitarii Vanguard squad before and after the changes and their expected dmg went down (from about 1.8 to 1.6)
davidgr33n wrote: Take a small detachment of Sisters, for 1 CP they can deny any psychic test on a 4+.
I'm really tempted to build a soup detachment, either a patrol or battalion, with Celestine, a retibutor squad with heavy bolters, and then assassins and infantry squads. Four heavy bolters that shoot twice a turn are tasty.
davidgr33n wrote: Take a small detachment of Sisters, for 1 CP they can deny any psychic test on a 4+.
I'm really tempted to build a soup detachment, either a patrol or battalion, with Celestine, a retibutor squad with heavy bolters, and then assassins and infantry squads. Four heavy bolters that shoot twice a turn are tasty.
It would be a powerful detachment, unfortunately the 4+ psychic test stratagem requires a pure Sisters detachment.
davidgr33n wrote: Take a small detachment of Sisters, for 1 CP they can deny any psychic test on a 4+.
I'm really tempted to build a soup detachment, either a patrol or battalion, with Celestine, a retibutor squad with heavy bolters, and then assassins and infantry squads. Four heavy bolters that shoot twice a turn are tasty.
It would be a powerful detachment, unfortunately the 4+ psychic test stratagem requires a pure Sisters detachment.
It's a good idea, but unfortunately I have no room for an pure Sisters detachment.
I could make my AdMech detachment Graia, they got the same stratagem, but I'm not quite convinced by their Forgeworld dogma.
What's everyone's opinion on Greyfax? Denying 2 powers with +1 could be handy agains Magnus. Plus her LD bubble is also nice.
I actually play Graia as my admech to support my IG superheavy tanks.
The dogma is only 'meh' but since it's two enginseers and 15 skitarii, the dogma is not what I am bringing them for.
The psychic defense is absolutely ACE. It's literally an in-your-pocket auto-deny if you want to spend 2 CP (one on the stratagem and one on a re-roll) of ANY power. I've nuked Mortarion by denying Miasma of Pestilence, for example.
It also gives me access to the +1 to-repair-rolls Warlord Trait and the Tech-Adept stratagem, meaning my Warlord repairs between 4 and 8 wounds a turn if I have a superheavy that really needs the attention.
I took Graia as the FW because it's the most 'supporty' of them all; the other Forge Worlds might have better dogmas for a mechanicus army but the Graia forge world is the only FW whose stratagem actually helps anyone else. (Unless you count Metallica but their stratagem is bupkis).
Magnus is going to see a lot less presence in competitive lists, so i wouldn't worry about it. On the other hand the new Thousand sons are really really nice,
It's actually a 2+ to hit, not a +2 to hit. Even better!
And yes. The Crush Them! stratagem is one of the many fantastic things that makes Baneblades better than Knights in CQC against anything other than another Superheavy.
It actually won me a game sat. Had to kill a heldraje and two blight drones to turn in all three of my cards. Dang blight drones ate all my shooting after the hell turkey bit it. He was so ecstatic and then I said “okay charge phase” and saw the color drain from his face when I told him what was happening
gendoikari87 wrote: It actually won me a game sat. Had to kill a heldraje and two blight drones to turn in all three of my cards. Dang blight drones ate all my shooting after the hell turkey bit it. He was so ecstatic and then I said “okay charge phase” and saw the color drain from his face when I told him what was happening
Yeah the Stratagem support for baneblade chassis vehicles makes them extremely nasty.
I used the Defensive Gunners + Vengeance for Cadia on a baneblade that was going to be charged by Typhus and Mortarion. It killed Typhus at full health and then chunked Mortarion enough to bring him to his lowest bracket which allowed the baneblade to survive. My buddy now hates Baneblades.
Unit1126PLL wrote: It's actually a 2+ to hit, not a +2 to hit. Even better!
And yes. The Crush Them! stratagem is one of the many fantastic things that makes Baneblades better than Knights in CQC against anything other than another Superheavy.
You have clearly not encountered a BADC CPT with the angels wing
Unit1126PLL wrote: It's actually a 2+ to hit, not a +2 to hit. Even better!
And yes. The Crush Them! stratagem is one of the many fantastic things that makes Baneblades better than Knights in CQC against anything other than another Superheavy.
You have clearly not encountered a BADC CPT with the angels wing
Actually I faced one of those recently. He ran forwards, carved a chunk out of the Baneblade, which didn't seem to notice much and continued its advance. He did this again, and the Baneblade accidentally ran him over on his second attack. (He suffered through two rounds of fighting against the tank before it just squashed him, though it mostly spent the time doing something else. I only attacked back when he charged because it was free, and would not have gone out of my way to deal with him).
When using Regiment Specific stratagems (lets use <Tallarn> ambush for example) does it say anywhere I can only use this if I have a battle forged <Tallarn> detachment or can I use it on any <tallarn> units.
This may be the case if I ran a <Catachan> battle forged detachment (therefore giving me access to the AM stratagems as per page 134) but then I had a <tallarn> unit which was actually part of an Imperium battleforged detachement.
As an addition to this if I were to use the ambush stratagem to ambush a stormlord could I fill it with my catachan troops?
CaptainO wrote: When using Regiment Specific stratagems (lets use <Tallarn> ambush for example) does it say anywhere I can only use this if I have a battle forged <Tallarn> detachment or can I use it on any <tallarn> units.
This may be the case if I ran a <Catachan> battle forged detachment (therefore giving me access to the AM stratagems as per page 134) but then I had a <tallarn> unit which was actually part of an Imperium battleforged detachement.
As an addition to this if I were to use the ambush stratagem to ambush a stormlord could I fill it with my catachan troops?
Your interpretation is correct: you don't have to have a Tallarn detachment to use the Tallarn stratagem, merely an Astra Militarum detachment. Additionally, the troops in a Tallarn transport that is put in ambush do not have to be Tallarn, as they are not being put in ambush themselves.
If I ambushed a stormlord with an astropath inside can he cast the -1 to hit +1 to armour save fromt the firing deck.
Similarly if Yarrick is on the firing deck of the stormlord, does it receive the reroll 1s. I was under the impression that if inside a transport smite cannot be used and buffs don't either but maybe the firing deck would change this....
League continued(well it continued last week but I was ill so I played it this week). Scenario was most normal so far. We start on opposite quarters(6'x4' board), 6" from center minimum. Each turn roll 3 dice and get to cause d3 MW for each 6. On turn 3 random quarter gets objective in center whose holder wins. I did basically went for last games list with some additions so pask with lascannon and all plasma's, another russ with multi-melta's, punisher and heavy bolter, 3 squad of infantry(autocannon, flamer), special weapon squad with 2 plasma and flamer, 3 chimeras(multilaser&heavy bolters and one with twin heavy flamer) and manticore. 60PL.
I took quarter with nice big ruin to hide manticore and deployed around. I was up against dark eldar with something like 12 drops so I got +1 without even putting infantry on chimeras. Though one squad was put badly on ruin multileveled so while autocannon had good LOS they did very little all game. Nothing entered within lasgun range, autocannon kept mostly missing or pinging from invulnerable saves or power of pain.
Anyway he had like 4 squads of kabalites, 2 squads of 5 wyches, archon, sybarite, big tank with lance and disintegrators, talon, incubi squad and something else I think.
Got +1 after couple rerolls with ties. However he had deployed very conservatively so lots of stuff just out of range or out of LOS but manticore put big tank just shy of next damage bracket(damn) and punisher opened up on squad of 12 kabalites. With shout of "how many shots?!?" 11 went poof and last one obviously legged from morale! In return he moved around, torched chimera from south with pair of dark lances starting trend of 6's on dark lance damages and his big tank put punisher down to last wound. Urgh. I can't take this firepower for long!
Turn 2. I got meteorite damaging the tank and fired manticore at it putting it on serious damage now. Flamer chimera moved north intercepting wyches running there. Punisher lumbered 2" ahead letting go against another kabalite squad in ruin but after promising 11 hits and 9 wounds only one died. Ah well 2-3 would be about average so not that unlucky. Pask meanwhile got to shoot(last turn not having anything in range after punisher took care of target) and without even using lascannon the talon went poof. On his turn on rather epic roll he got all 3 comet's(3 6's...URGH!). Punisher obviously was targeted, south chimera also and squad of infantry for some reason but only 1 wound each. Pask was put down to 3 wounds and south chimera got dented up badly as well.
Turn 3. Objective time. If it came on either side's quarter game would be pretty much in bag. He might get it from my zone though unlikely due to distances. I couldn't get there ever. On right it would be hairy for me. On my top-left quarter it would be up for fight. Luckily it went there so I ran 2 infantry squad toward there. Flamer chimera burned 3 wyches(at last casualties! I had played vs him on first round and those ate like over dozen flamer hits losing just 2 members), pask grilled another squad of kabalites heavily though still stuff alive there. 4+ to hit sucks. Manticore finished of his big tank finally. On his turn succubus that had been sneaking toward flamer chimera area charged squad of infantry, wyches charged chimera and got toasted for their trouble. Succubus took out all and tagged said chimera then though. Whoops. I got careless there. Didn't expect to lose all 10 to one girl. One of his 2 kabalite squads with dark lances that had been firing at my chimeras on south moved toward pask and just took him out :(
Turn 4. Special weapon squad disembarks, chimera flees out of combat, I shoot at the succubus and it survives. Dammit. Infantry squad runs closer. Manticore drops several incubus and is out of ammo. Succubus charges special weapon squad, takes plasma shot in face but has one wound. Kills all but flamer guy after morale.
Turn 5: Manticore drives around firing heavy bolter at succubus but fails. Flamer chimera moves next to 2nd wyche squad, torch 2, charges, uses strategem to hit on 2+, wounds 3 but dodge and pain saves 2. Damn. Infantry squad moves up and shoots the damn succubus to death. On his turn wych disengage, Incubus runs toward objective. archon charges chimera taking couple wounds for his efforts when twin flamers cause 12 hits overloading his 2++. Game continues on 3+ roll.(I would have won here)
Turn 6: I put wall next to the objective. There's 4 incubi and 2 wyches plus archon vs my squad of infantry, one lone flamer guy, manticore(with no rockets) and chimera with serious dents in it...On his turn archon disengages, incubi and wyche charges infantry squad wiping all but 2 who kill 1 wyche and run away. Game continues on 4+(I would have won here)
Turn 7: Not much to do. Moved around, shot wyche to death and charged both of my vehicles to incubi but this was hopeless. They survived, took out chimera and on his turn disengaged straight to the objective winning the game.
Close game!
Pask still awesome.
Punisher was pretty sweet here though did get very good army against it.
Heavy flamer chimera keeps surprising me on it's utility. PL and not super tight competive armies helps a lot but ability to drive 12" firing 2d6 S5 -1 autohits which still keeps hitting with damage is suprisingly useful. Plus charging to tag units in combat to keep other units safe has proven useful twice now.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, sorry for double post, but can we talk about Hellhammers a bit?
Does anyone use one (or 3)? My regiment is an urban combat superheavy regiment and a company of hellhammers is basically mandatory. I've found problems maneuvering on boards with urban-style terrain with the sponson-tanks, so my company is going to have zero sponsons. Any thoughts?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, sorry for double post, but can we talk about Hellhammers a bit?
Does anyone use one (or 3)? My regiment is an urban combat superheavy regiment and a company of hellhammers is basically mandatory. I've found problems maneuvering on boards with urban-style terrain with the sponson-tanks, so my company is going to have zero sponsons. Any thoughts?
Well, I would run a fully kitted out Hellhammer, but I already get twitchy at spending 540 on a Shadowsword, so something like 620? 650? For the Hellhammer makes me pause. I just don’t think I can keep it alive any better than the Shadowsword, and that can already be a struggle – so the extra points feels risky.
That's part of the other reason I want to keep the sponsons off. But I've definitely had maneuvering trouble, and the secondary armament of the Hellhammer is pretty damn good. I'm playing Vostroyan doctrine, so the Demolisher Cannon has a 30" range, making it far more competitive with the 4 lascannons on a fully-kitted non-turreted variant (like a shadowsword).
The only thing it is missing is the anti-infantry firepower from the 4-twin heavy bolters, but it still has one, which is pretty good, and I will hopefully have some support elements; part of the reason to keep it cheap is 3 tanks at 476 each gives me 570 points of other stuff to help them out, which can include quite a bit of anti-infantry firepower.
Unit1126PLL wrote: That's part of the other reason I want to keep the sponsons off. But I've definitely had maneuvering trouble, and the secondary armament of the Hellhammer is pretty damn good. I'm playing Vostroyan doctrine, so the Demolisher Cannon has a 30" range, making it far more competitive with the 4 lascannons on a fully-kitted non-turreted variant (like a shadowsword).
The only thing it is missing is the anti-infantry firepower from the 4-twin heavy bolters, but it still has one, which is pretty good, and I will hopefully have some support elements; part of the reason to keep it cheap is 3 tanks at 476 each gives me 570 points of other stuff to help them out, which can include quite a bit of anti-infantry firepower.
And i love the +1 to hit stratagem for Vostroyan super heavies as well!
Unit1126PLL wrote: That's part of the other reason I want to keep the sponsons off. But I've definitely had maneuvering trouble, and the secondary armament of the Hellhammer is pretty damn good. I'm playing Vostroyan doctrine, so the Demolisher Cannon has a 30" range, making it far more competitive with the 4 lascannons on a fully-kitted non-turreted variant (like a shadowsword).
The only thing it is missing is the anti-infantry firepower from the 4-twin heavy bolters, but it still has one, which is pretty good, and I will hopefully have some support elements; part of the reason to keep it cheap is 3 tanks at 476 each gives me 570 points of other stuff to help them out, which can include quite a bit of anti-infantry firepower.
And i love the +1 to hit stratagem for Vostroyan super heavies as well!
Yes, that brings the firepower back up after losing the Catachan buff.
I actually switched to Vostroyan because my Regimental Commander is literally an honoured duelist in my fluff and has been since forever... and guess what the Vostroyan warlord trait is...
I used to run Catachan, and it was helpful, but less meaningfully than I would have thought. I think the average for the Baneblade's 3d6 weapon went from 10.5 to like 12 or so. Two extra shots ish, one of which missed. You'll get so much out of the Vostroyan +1 To-Hit stratagem for one tank, that it makes up for the fairly naff but omnipresent bonus from Catachan on /every/ tank, while making Hellhammers and Stormswords considerably better.
Unit1126PLL wrote: That's part of the other reason I want to keep the sponsons off. But I've definitely had maneuvering trouble, and the secondary armament of the Hellhammer is pretty damn good. I'm playing Vostroyan doctrine, so the Demolisher Cannon has a 30" range, making it far more competitive with the 4 lascannons on a fully-kitted non-turreted variant (like a shadowsword).
The only thing it is missing is the anti-infantry firepower from the 4-twin heavy bolters, but it still has one, which is pretty good, and I will hopefully have some support elements; part of the reason to keep it cheap is 3 tanks at 476 each gives me 570 points of other stuff to help them out, which can include quite a bit of anti-infantry firepower.
And i love the +1 to hit stratagem for Vostroyan super heavies as well!
Yes, that brings the firepower back up after losing the Catachan buff.
I actually switched to Vostroyan because my Regimental Commander is literally an honoured duelist in my fluff and has been since forever... and guess what the Vostroyan warlord trait is...
I used to run Catachan, and it was helpful, but less meaningfully than I would have thought. I think the average for the Baneblade's 3d6 weapon went from 10.5 to like 12 or so. Two extra shots ish, one of which missed. You'll get so much out of the Vostroyan +1 To-Hit stratagem for one tank, that it makes up for the fairly naff but omnipresent bonus from Catachan on /every/ tank, while making Hellhammers and Stormswords considerably better.
I was looking the other day, at, when i finally build my Baneblade kit, what would i go and whether or not i could fit one reasonably into 2k with Custodes
Came down to, do i take a full Shadowsword or a Marauder Destroyer Would give me 4-500 points to play around with in terms of support.
Do you feel the 4 sponsons are needed when you play your Companies?
The turretless ones, I think, need them. Without a Demolisher Cannon, 2-4 Lascannons is necessary to give it the ability to engage enough anti-tank targets (even the Shadowsword wants them, so it can engage 2 tanks fairly efficiently).
The turreted ones, I think, don't need them at all. I prefer the "classic" Baneblade look, so I put one set on all my Baneblades, but my hellhammers are going with 0 sponsons.
THAT SAID, I am also learning that a whole company of superheavy tanks plays way differently than one. One superheavy tank gives you one easy-to-buff, durable unit. Why not load it up with sponsons?
I ran a game with just a baneblade without sponsons and I definitely would have preferred the sponsons after the game.
So my buddy has been running Morty and Magnus with a bunch of Death Guard bloat drones, myphetic blight haulers, and plagueburst crawlers. There's no way my standard lists can deal with so many resilient unii recently acquired some now kits, I'm interested to see what Unit thinks.
I'm planning to run a Macharius Vulcan, Shadowsword with Heavy Bolter sponsons, and maybe a Banehammer with a set of heavy flamer sponsons. I'll have a Trojan, techpriest, and some troops and Psyker support. Basically as nasty as I can get. My friend started an arms race and I intend to win. What do you think? I'm thinking running everything as Valhallan to keep the tanks running at 4+ BS for longer.
Colonel Cross wrote: I ran a game with just a baneblade without sponsons and I definitely would have preferred the sponsons after the game.
So my buddy has been running Morty and Magnus with a bunch of Death Guard bloat drones, myphetic blight haulers, and plagueburst crawlers. There's no way my standard lists can deal with so many resilient unii recently acquired some now kits, I'm interested to see what Unit thinks.
I'm planning to run a Macharius Vulcan, Shadowsword with Heavy Bolter sponsons, and maybe a Banehammer with a set of heavy flamer sponsons. I'll have a Trojan, techpriest, and some troops and Psyker support. Basically as nasty as I can get. My friend started an arms race and I intend to win. What do you think? I'm thinking running everything as Valhallan to keep the tanks running at 4+ BS for longer.
So I actually tried a list similar to yours, and you might be over-committing a bit.
Realizing my own over-commitment is what made me rethink sponsons. The problem is that the superheavy tanks are merely 'hammers' to which everything must be a nail. They're fairly severely restricted in movement (16" max without being able to change shape or size, compared to an infantry squad's shape-morphing ability and possible 24" per turn), fairly easy to kill for their points (~ same cost as 3 Leman Russ tanks, with barely more than twice as many wounds). Their saving grace is a ton of firepower and their special rules that make them fairly good at combat.
So based on that, I would say the following:
1) The Vulcan's not good. It doesn't have the combat presence of a Baneblade, has fewer wounds, and doesn't have as much firepower. I stopped running the Storm Lord because I found its weapons inadequate against anything that the guard couldn't already deal with. I own a Macharius (the regular battlecannon version) and I want it to be good, but it really isn't.
2) Sponson heavy bolters are unnecessary. Heavy bolters fill the same role as lasguns: i.e., killing little stuff dead. For the price of a single pair of sponsons, one could buy almost two infantry squads (68 points or 17 guardsmen), and that means that you can get three whole infantry squads with room for upgrades for the price of 4 Sponsons (two pairs). That's 60 points short of a battalion, which gives you 3 CP, some scoring units, lots of lasguns (60 at long range, 120 at short range) and all you use are 24 Heavy Bolter shots and 4 lascannon shots.
3) I.G. Lascannons are unreliable. 4 Lascannons is about what it takes to guarantee harm to a big enemy tank, but a Baneblade cannon does it more easily and is already factored into the cost of the super-durable platform. The super-durable platform also comes with a Demolisher cannon, which is a lascannon or two by itself. 4 further lascannons is 2 more guard squads by themselves, but is not two-squads-of-guardsmen useful, imo.
4) Heavy flamer sponsons are super killy, but super useless. You /want/ the Baneblade to be in close combat, as damn near everything that can kill it easily is a shooting weapon, and being in close combat means they can't shoot you unless they fall back. But you can shoot them, thanks to Steel Behemoth. Again, 8d6 autohits is scary, but is it an entire battalion of Imperial Guard with Upgrades scary?
5) A tech-priest is good, because it's cheap, but a Trojan is not. Instead of paying 100 points for a Rhino with a heavy bolter to make one gun re-roll lots of shots, instead buy two guard squads to help screen them. A Baneblade Cannon, on average, will damn near one-shot a Leman Russ, so all it takes is a minor bump (+1 or re-roll 1s to Hit, or re-roll one of the main gun's d6s, or even just a CP re-roll) to make it one-shot one of the toughest non-superheavies in the game. It doesn't need re-rolls to hit - but it does need 100pts of other support. A trojan simply isn't worth 1/4th or 1/5th of a whole 'nother superheavy in my experience. I've run one, and it's just not been as helpful as I have hoped. I own four, too, so it's particularly upsetting.
6) Psyker support is good, because it's cheap.
7) Valhallan is not a good doctrine for superheavy tanks in my experience. They're so easy to kill for their points that if the enemy gets to go first, they'll be able to wipe one out or make it very badly damaged fairly easily. Valhallan helps, but Catachan or Vostroyan helps better, the former with sheer bloody firepower and the latter with having a flexible +1 to-hit that can turn any tank into a killing machine on demand.
The best thing I've found to do is bring cheap/stock superheavy tanks (though the ones without Demolisher Cannons [i.e. the not-turreted ones] I actually buy sponsons for because they lack other secondary weapons) and then surround them with stuff to deal with little gak, while their incredibly terrifying main armament rips up the enemy big stuff.
One of my example lists is:
Super Heavy Detachment:
Baneblade 1: One set of HB sponsons (I like to classic sponson look, and having one set is a good compromise between ALL OF THE POINTS and cheap as chips)
Baneblade 2: One set of HB sponsons
Baneblade 3: One set of HB sponsons
Astra Militarum Battalion:
3-4 troops, 2 HQs, flavour to taste
Adeptus Mechanicus Battalion: (If you're really bringing Tech-Priests, drop the Trojan and bring them here)
2 Tech-Priest Enginseers
3 5-man Skitarii Vanguard units
The reason for the Admech detachment is 5-fold:
1) Free psychic defense on an automatic 4+ (Graia Forge World doctrine). Being able to deny an enemy power, regardless of what it is, for 1CP (sometimes 2, if you really gotta re-roll that 4+) is both hilarious and good.
2) Cheap screens that are hard to shift with good firepower. (Skitarii Vanguard): Admittedly 5-man units, but with a 4+/6++/6+++ before Canticles, they're fairly tough, and their radium carbines still put out 15 shots per squad, which isn't bad. They can hang around with the IG infantry up front.
3) The Necromechanic warlord trait (+1 to repair rolls, who doesn't love it if they like superheavies?)
4) The Tech-Adept stratagem (this is gold. Combined with the Necromechanic WT, this means that a Baneblade of my choosing is recovering between four and eight hull points per turn, easily bringing it back to hitting on a 4+ without being Valhallan)
5) The Graian relic gives +1 automatic CP.
This 2k list has 5-11 wounds of repairs per turn (though d3 of them have to go on a different tank than the other 4-8), 3 superheavy tanks each of which is an army-killer in its own right in many ways, 45-55 bodies worth of screening units, 30-120 lasgun shots and 45 radium carbine shots, psychic defense on a 4+, and 13 CP.
Whew thanks for your insight! I've been opposed to super heavies for years but with the rising of Primarchs I've been at a loss to deal with them.
My buddy's list is both demon Primarchs, a flying demon prince, 2 bloat drones, and 2 plague burst crawlers. The rest of his points are nurglings, and a mix of either termies, Morty bodyguards, or various characters. My reason for superheavies is because even when I run 60+ bodies and 4 battle tanks, I can't keep my tanks firing. Between most of his army having fly, Magnus nuking 10 man guard squads easily with smite, his bloat drones can each take out a squad, he can get to my tanks turn 1. The only way I stand a chance is to get first turn and/or I get the far table edge deployment zone.
What I would suggest doing in your case is running a detachment of:
The VMB Macharius or another Baneblade-chassis tank of your choosing
2 full-sponson Shadowswords.
Take the Mordian doctrine, park them essentially adjacent to eachother, and laugh as you overwatch on a 4+ against a titanic unit with 4 lascannons and 3d3 volcano cannon shots that wound on a 3+/2+ respectively and do d6 / rerollable-2d6 damage per wound.
They literally cannot charge either of the superheavies, and if they get to fire first, they hit on a 3+ against the Titanic unit while having the same capabilities.
EDIT: Mind you, this is a tailored list, and I'd not run it against a typical army. But an army with the 2 Daemon primarchs is essentially hard-countered by 1080 points of Shadowswords.
Colonel Cross wrote:The Primarchs don't count as Titanic units, sadly. Just LoW. But I do like the idea of using Mordian doctrines.
Rats. I thought they would, being bigger than a Monolith, who has the Titanic keyword.
At any rate, you get the idea. Mordian is definitely a list-tailored thing though, it's not by any means the best doctrine for superheavies. It is very good on them, though, because they're fairly easy to keep within 3" of another Vehicle (being fuckoff huge) and if you're already using a trojan, that could be the other vehicle. It essentially gives you a free shooting phase every time you're charged if you want to use the Defensive Gunners stratagem.
gendoikari87 wrote:So question: baneblade in a 1000 point army. What’s the best way to do that?
The way I do it around here is I load up a superheavy transport (a Banehammer, in my regiment's case, though I understand different regiments will, in the case of superheavy regiments, be issued other types, or in the case of infantry/mechanized/other regiments, request another type be detached from a superheavy regiment).
I make sure to bring a supreme command for said Banehammer, I leave the sponsons off of it, and bring other gubbins. At 1000 points, a max-sponson banehammer is more than half of your points, so it's better IMHO for it to be relegated to a support role. The plan would be a Supreme Command of a Psyker, Lord Commissar, and Company Commander from the 2nd Concordian (for fluff) with the Banehammer, then 2 Company Commanders from the 11th Mojurant Fusiliers (my burgeoning infantry regiment), and either 30 guardsmen, or 20 guardsmen (all of whom will fit in the Banehammer) and some deepstriking Scions.
The rest of the points I'd flavour to taste. Russes or artillery if you're into that, though you probably don't need more armour. Hellhounds would be good. The way I'd fluff a 1k with a sponsonless transport is the same way my superheavy transports are always fluffed: assault tanks, carrying trained assault troops to wherever they can do some good.
Therion wrote: You can't give the +1 CP relic to a Tech-Priest Enginseer, right? It's Dominus only.
Is it? If so I've cheated in like two games. Let me check...
Oh yes! You're right. Well, busted back down to 12 CP.
Reading is hard, clearly.
EDIT: In that case, I've to do more research. I'd keep the Mechanicus detachment, because the Tech Adept and Steel Mind, Iron Logic stratagems are such powerful tools, but the warlord and relic might get moved to a Company Commander. The "Grand Strategist" trait and "Kurov's Aquila" relic may very well more than make up for the lost CP and 2 fewer repaired wounds.
What's so bad about the sentinels? They're great at denying board space (scouts especially), can carry Heavy Weapons that the enemy can't really ignore, and still take a moderate amount of shooting to get rid of. At 50-60 points, seems like a bargain?
I think that Sentinels in cover with something like a Lascannon are gold. Area denial, no decay due to damage, with a threatening weapon that you don't want to ignore, but you also don't want to take shots away from Russes or other tanks. Puts the opponent in a bit of a bind, regarding targeting.
If they get cheaper, and stay just as they are, I'd be tickled pink. I already use them to cheaply fill FA slots. I'd use more than 3, if I owned more.
I need to try mine more. I took them once or twice and they're annoying for opponents to deal with, since they're surprisingly tough. They are kind of expensive for no more firepower than they provide though, and they have a hard time hitting most things with single shot weapons.
With the reduction in points I think an Autocannon on a Scout Sentinel is a great bargain. I run Tallarn, so moving from one bit of cover to another as needed and still shooting at full effect is really convenient.
I'm finding that the armies that really want to DS in have tools that get to work at carving out dropzones before the Sentinels get to move. IE Nurglings and Scouts.
They work great against armies that need to DS without those tools, but I'm not convinced they're worth their points because of the likelihood of running into those two units in a 3-6 game tournament.
Another thing I forgot to mention is that if you just want durable lascannons you take an Annihilator. It'll put out 4 lascannon shots on the move with no penalty for 170pts, and is a Leman Russ, so you know it can take hits.
So really all the sentinel adds is if it's a scout, and potentially 3 armored sentinels being a bit tougher by sheer weight of wounds. Odds of a 2+ save for cover is low since you need to actually obscure such a tall model.
I honestly think I'd just prefer the Russ and spamming lascannons on infantry. I feel like the sentinel must have some weapon that it works well with but I'll be honest I have yet to find it. Multilasers are trash, autocannons are pointless when we have tauroxes, so the only other thing I can think of would be missile launchers or heavy flamers. Maybe armored sentinels could use plasma cannons if they're cadian or don't overcharge but that seems expensive for what it does as well. Even scouting I feel could be done better with ratlings, since they're fall smaller and could be hidden easily, making them more difficult to shoot away for a turn 2 deepstrike than a gangly sentinel standing in the open.
I'm in the middle of reading through this thread and I found an idea that tickles my fancy. What do you guys think of this as the core of a 2000pt army? I've split this into different sections, not via detachment, still gotta figure out how to fit it.
Company Commander
Commissar
Priest
2x50 Conscripts
Tempestor Prime
2x10 Scions with max plasma
Stormlord wiith extra hvy bolters and lascannons
18x mortar teams
Company command squad with 2 snipers
Primaris Psyker
Techpriest Enginseer
Comes out at 1568pts.
The idea is to sit the Psyker and Enginseer behind the Stormlord, giving D3 wounds per turn and +1 save. Bubble wrap with conscripts, and the Scions do their thing.
The Stormlord has, Vulcan Mega Bolter, 4x LC, 6x Hvy Bolters, 3x Heavy Stubbers, 18x Mortars and 2x snipers (could swap for an additional heavy weapon).
The rest of the army would probably be standard guard squads with hvy weapons and commanders / commissars.
How do you think this would fare? I haven't had many games of 8th yet, just theory hammering atm.
Can't have conscripts in 50 man units anymore. Even if you could I'd recommend just taking infantry squads instead since they're the same cost these days for better LD, BS, and equipment. I'd also check your points to make sure you're using Chapter approved updates, since you appear to be reading your rules from an older source.
Otherwise, 18 mortars feels excessive to me. Commissars don't do as much anymore, and priests are very niche. You also have a command squad with no banner yet 2 snipers, which makes me wonder what your plan for them is in the first place.
I would warn about placing all your eggs in one basket. As your list sits your shadowsword is your sole source of serious Anti Tank. If it gets taken out, and it can easily be taken out if the opponent wants it gone at 2k, your only really hope is some stormtroopers and maybe the mortars through sheer weight of fire. I would drop your conscripts and replace them with infantry squads running las/plas. Covers the conscripts role and makes you less dependent on the shadowsword. From there, you'd want additional company commanders, command squads with banners, maybe even other morale tricks like a russ to be a tank commissar or an inquisitor.
Have you given any thought to your regiment yet? It will heavily dictate what the exact list will be.
Thanks man, I'm still catching up with the new updates. Was just reading through this thread and found this idea around page 30 or so. I'll finish reading this thread first though. Cheers for the input.
the_Jakman wrote: Thanks man, I'm still catching up with the new updates. Was just reading through this thread and found this idea around page 30 or so. I'll finish reading this thread first though. Cheers for the input.
Holy Crap that's like a 120 pages. I'd stick to maybe the last 30 at most, a solid chunk of the data before that is pre codex/Erratas and is heavily outdated. Just trying to save you a little time. Our last big changes were chapter approved around Christmas, so if you can find that time point anything after it postwise is current.
Have you played a vulture ? Is it as good as it seems ? Especially with an officer of the fleet nearby, it looks like a no brainer in this troops heavy meta, isn't it ?
It was kind of a no brainier before Russes could double tap. The gap has been lessened now. They're still totally viable. Theres a few pros and cons to each. A leman Russ is unlikely to be able to assassinate a character but a Vulture can!
I know russes are generally seen as durable, but I've had the opposite experience. Without an invuln or a feel no pain, they pop super easy. All guard vehicles do.
Hemlock flies by a Russ? The Russ is one shot.
Nurgle guy with a 2d6 strength flamer? One shots a Russ.
Hell, last game I had 3 pleageburst crawlers almost take out my shadowsword in 1 turn (knocked it to lowest bracket) while I couldn't take out a single crawler for the life of me.
At 12 wounds, a Hemlock will only be 1 shotting a Russ the minority of the time – even if it gets smite off as well. Of course, it can still do it, even without smite, but, you’d need to get lucky with the 2d3 shots and wound with everything on a 3+.
I find it much more reliable to shoot and charge an Autarch Skyrunner into a Russ that’s been doomed.
I’m curious about Vultures myself. The amount of shots they put out is fantastic, they are mobile, but I doubt their ability to last more than a turn or 2 in the current meta.
I will play one in two weeks using using my avenger as count as, I will tell how it went.
I had very little success with my russes for the moment, they are pretty durable, more than I thought, even in assault, but they can't kill anything. Except for my punisher.
What are your experience with battle cannons russes ?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ThePorcupine wrote: I know russes are generally seen as durable, but I've had the opposite experience. Without an invuln or a feel no pain, they pop super easy. All guard vehicles do.
Hemlock flies by a Russ? The Russ is one shot.
Nurgle guy with a 2d6 strength flamer? One shots a Russ.
Hell, last game I had 3 pleageburst crawlers almost take out my shadowsword in 1 turn (knocked it to lowest bracket) while I couldn't take out a single crawler for the life of me.
Am I alone in this?
You need at least one or two psykers or good deployement to protect your tanks from smite / psy powers generating mortal wounds.
3 crawlers are about 450 pts, aren't they ? I m not surprised they almost destroyed a similary priced unit
godardc wrote: I will play one in two weeks using using my avenger as count as, I will tell how it went.
I had very little success with my russes for the moment, they are pretty durable, more than I thought, even in assault, but they can't kill anything. Except for my punisher.
What are your experience with battle cannons russes ?
I'm surprised to hear that, my Battle Cannon Russes do an incredible amount of work in my games. I run a Catachan Spearhead with a Tank Commander and 3 Russes of whatever flavor, and they always take huge chunks out of the enemy. The commander gets heavy bolter sponsons, and Demolishers get heavy flamers, but LRBTs I leave completely stock. I'm strongly considering adding Harker for the re-roll aura.
One other thing I'm greatly enjoying is Steel Legion infantry squads. I arm them with just a plasma gun, and for 47 points they do a huge amount of lifting. I usually run 3-5 and have Yarrick follow them around.
ThePorcupine wrote: I know russes are generally seen as durable, but I've had the opposite experience. Without an invuln or a feel no pain, they pop super easy. All guard vehicles do.
Hemlock flies by a Russ? The Russ is one shot.
Nurgle guy with a 2d6 strength flamer? One shots a Russ.
Hell, last game I had 3 pleageburst crawlers almost take out my shadowsword in 1 turn (knocked it to lowest bracket) while I couldn't take out a single crawler for the life of me.
Am I alone in this?
you need really unlucky rolls for a 2d6 SUser(6ish) flamer with AP-1 and D1 to one-shot a T7 W12 3+ tank. Plagueburst crawlers also would also need very good rolls to knock the shadowsword that far down in 1 round (20 wounds v T8 3+), because they hit & wound on a 4+. entropy cannons erase the armor but the mortar doesn't. Averages say 3 PBC with entropy cannons will knock 8.75 wounds off a shadowsword per turn.
Russes are great. With the way saves and AP works this edition a 3+ with or without a 6++ are almost the exact same. Sure it'll get blown off the table if you only have one or two tanks, but with some more target saturation you're doing great. They're just generally a great weapons platform, they block LOS, can get access to orders, and are T8.
I like them, anyway. But it doesn't look like people in the top 8 were really throwing down a lot of armor, so maybe there's something just wrong with tanks
Main armament:
3.5 shots, 1.75 hits, 0.88 wounds, 0.58 past saves, 1.16 damage.
Total wounds done to a shadowsword by 1 Plageburst Crawler: 2.91, on average.
Total wounds done to a shadowsword by 3 plagueburst crawlers on average: ~9.
I find it highly unlikely that they did 21 or more wounds in one turn, and if they did, I'd check your opponent's dice.
That said, the reason I bring 3 superheavies is because of the plethora of units that /can/ one shot them. Recently, I've added 3 units of 12 Ork Tankbustas with 2 Squig-bombs in each riding in 3 trukks.
I find it odd Godardc that your punisher can kill stuff yet battle cannons don't?
I play Catachan mostly so maybe that's why I take so many battle cannons. But I did just have a TC with battle Cannon 1 shot a repulsor lol. Granted his hull Lascannon did about 5 of the wounds.
I like to run a fireball punisher and the damn Gatling Cannon rarely does much. Maybe I play against too many Marine players and too much cover?
In my defense he cast some bs on my shadowsword that lowered its toughness by 1. And had some dude near his crawlers that let them reroll 1s.
So I ordered 9 heavy weapons teams. As I understand it mortar teams are the most popular loadout? I wonder why? I just did the mathhammer out of curiosity and I don't know that they stack up all that favorably vs other weapons. Is the indirect fire capability honestly their only draw? I feel like if you have line of sight almost anything else is better. Cost is obviously a big factor
9 mortars = 99 points
9 mortars vs T8 3+ = 1D
9 mortars vs T7 3+ = 2D
9 mortars vs T4 3+ = 3D
9 mortars vs T3 4+ = 6D
9 mortars vs T3 5+ = 8.1D
9 h.bolters = 126 points
9 h.bolters vs T8 3+ = 2.6D
9 h.bolters vs T7 3+ = 2.6D
9 h.bolters vs T4 3+ = 5.3D
9 h.bolters vs T3 4+ = 7D
9 h.bolters vs T3 5+ = 8.8D
9 autocannons = 162 points
9 autocannons vs T8 3+ = 3.5D
9 autocannons vs T7 3+ = 5.3D
9 autocannons vs T4 3+ = 3.5W (2D each)
9 autocannons vs T3 4+ = 5.8W (2D each)
9 autocannons vs T3 5+ = 7.3W (2D each)
9 lascannons = 234 points
9 lascannons vs T8 3+ = 10.3D
9 lascannons vs T7 3+ = 10.3D
9 lascannons vs T4 3+ = 3.7W (3.5D each)
9 lascannons vs T3 4+ = 4.4W (3.5D each)
9 lascannons vs T3 5+ = ...why tho
It is because my main opponent plays a lot of gaunts, so shooting with a punisher is effective, when I usually get low results on my dice when rolling for my battle canons.
Yesterday I did 2 damages to a trygon...
(I play Tallarn, maybe I should try Catachan)
ThePorcupine wrote: So I ordered 9 heavy weapons teams. As I understand it mortar teams are the most popular loadout? I wonder why?
Mortars are the most popular for Heavy Weapon Squads because they're cheap. HWS are very fragile, so many are loathe to invest points in special weapons that are so easy to kill. The fact that Mortars can safely hide outside LoS is another big selling point.
Heavy weapon teams within squads have a lot more protection, and Lascannons seem fairly popular for that.
ThePorcupine wrote: So I ordered 9 heavy weapons teams. As I understand it mortar teams are the most popular loadout? I wonder why? I just did the mathhammer out of curiosity and I don't know that they stack up all that favorably vs other weapons. Is the indirect fire capability honestly their only draw? I feel like if you have line of sight almost anything else is better.
Mortars are cheap points-wise and you can hide them pretty much everywhere. Think about it: You're basically getting a 48" d6 bolter shots that ignore line of sight for the cost of a SM Scout. It's not a fair comparison for multiple reasons, but as far as small arms damage output per points, it's hard to beat. They're also the cheapest way to fill out those mandatory heavy slots in a Brigade. Tanks and basilisks are nice, but eventually you have enough.
That being said, I actually like lascannons for my heavy weapons. They're fragile, but do some decent damage. They might be better suited for being in an Infantry Squad though.
The nice thing about the (cadian or catachan) heavy weapon teams though is that each kit gives you all the weapons. You only get one tripod, but the mortar doesn't use it, so you ebay some extra large bases, and you can make the mortar, the missile launcher, and one of the other weapons, more if you get creative about how you mount it.
I just wish they still made heavy weapons for mordians. I've got a handful of the LC and mortar teams, but they're expensive and almost impossible to find nowadays.
I did well at LVO this year and came in 24th place. There were a lot of AM lists that did better than me. I was going to post them all but "best" coast pairings crashed again and all the information they had from the championships is either down temporarily or lost forever
Michael Brant's list is in the top 10. It's a tiny bit more BA than AM but almost equal. His list has great synergy. It's basily Catachan double bubble +2 attack with a ton of mortars, BA scouts, and Sanguinary guard with lots of buffing characters forming on hell of a beatstick. Blood Angels are CP thirsty beasts that gobble up the 9 CP that the catachans bring to the table. I tried something similar with death guard and my experience is this is one hell of a wombo combo, but it is not easy to use and takes some skill.
Here is his list.
Spoiler:
Catachan Brigade
Straken
2 company commanders with power swords
10 infantry squads with mortars
3 multi laser scout sentinels
3 mortar HWS 2 platoon commanders 1 with a fist and 1 with a power sword
1 priest
There was another catachan list in the top 20. I talked to the guy and he has been running catachans since they first came out during rogue trader/2nd edition. It was an interesting list that was primarily catachan with a few SM scouts mixed in on top of ratlings but i don't remember all the details. He had massive board control but I don't think others would be able to copy his list. the list appeared odd and not everything had an obvious place or function which means the guy figured a use and a place for everything in his list over a lot of games which probably makes him a bit unpredictable by his opponent.
There was another cadian list that had sentinel power lifters. I wish I could link it and am very disappointed in best coast pairings.
Anyhow here is my list.
Spoiler:
Warlord Trait superior tactical training
Relics Laurels of command, lost relic of Cadia
Cadian Brigade
3 Company commanders and one of them is the warlord
6 infantry squads with plasma guns and lascannons
3 rough rider squads with 2 plasma
5 mortar HWS 2 SWS with 2 plasma and 1 demo
1 SWS with 3 demo charges
Cadian Spearhead
1 Company commander
2 Leman Russ executioners with plasma sponson, lascannon, storm bolter.
3 Basilisks
1 mortar HWS
Elysian Vanguard
1 company commander
6 sniper teams
Like the list - glad to see someone else using the double plasma rough riders! If you'd have time for a quick run through of your match ups and how they went it'd be really interesting
Tiberius501 wrote: Would a full army of Militarum Tempestus work in 8th ed? Taurox Primes, Scions, Valkyries
I think it can work, might not necessarily be the best though. Taurox primes shred infantry well enough and the scions melt the bigger stuff. It'll lack staying power though, which is patched up with tanks and guard squads in regular lists
Tiberius501 wrote: Would a full army of Militarum Tempestus work in 8th ed? Taurox Primes, Scions, Valkyries
I think it can work, might not necessarily be the best though. Taurox primes shred infantry well enough and the scions melt the bigger stuff. It'll lack staying power though, which is patched up with tanks and guard squads in regular lists
I run a majority of Scions for my lists, but even then i still have a good chunk of leman russes and mortars with bog standard infantry backing them up. I usually have a small gun line that doesn't worry about objectives then I have my Scions do all the heavy lifting.
schadenfreude wrote: I did well at LVO this year and came in 24th place. There were a lot of AM lists that did better than me. I was going to post them all but "best" coast pairings crashed again and all the information they had from the championships is either down temporarily or lost forever
Michael Brant's list is in the top 10. It's a tiny bit more BA than AM but almost equal. His list has great synergy. It's basily Catachan double bubble +2 attack with a ton of mortars, BA scouts, and Sanguinary guard with lots of buffing characters forming on hell of a beatstick. Blood Angels are CP thirsty beasts that gobble up the 9 CP that the catachans bring to the table. I tried something similar with death guard and my experience is this is one hell of a wombo combo, but it is not easy to use and takes some skill.
Here is his list.
Spoiler:
Catachan Brigade
Straken
2 company commanders with power swords
10 infantry squads with mortars
3 multi laser scout sentinels
3 mortar HWS 2 platoon commanders 1 with a fist and 1 with a power sword
1 priest
There was another catachan list in the top 20. I talked to the guy and he has been running catachans since they first came out during rogue trader/2nd edition. It was an interesting list that was primarily catachan with a few SM scouts mixed in on top of ratlings but i don't remember all the details. He had massive board control but I don't think others would be able to copy his list. the list appeared odd and not everything had an obvious place or function which means the guy figured a use and a place for everything in his list over a lot of games which probably makes him a bit unpredictable by his opponent.
There was another cadian list that had sentinel power lifters. I wish I could link it and am very disappointed in best coast pairings.
Anyhow here is my list.
Spoiler:
Warlord Trait superior tactical training
Relics Laurels of command, lost relic of Cadia
Cadian Brigade
3 Company commanders and one of them is the warlord
6 infantry squads with plasma guns and lascannons
3 rough rider squads with 2 plasma
5 mortar HWS 2 SWS with 2 plasma and 1 demo
1 SWS with 3 demo charges
Cadian Spearhead
1 Company commander
2 Leman Russ executioners with plasma sponson, lascannon, storm bolter.
3 Basilisks
1 mortar HWS
Elysian Vanguard
1 company commander
6 sniper teams
Congrats on the good placement buddy!
Do you mind telling me how well Imperial Guard superheavies did? I am looking for data comparing them to Magnus, Mortarion, the other superheavies, you know. Monoliths, knights, etc.
My match ups were
Tau
Death watch
Nids
Genestealer cult
Grey knights
Eldar
Lost agaist the genestealer cult because I wasn't in the zone and made a terrible mistake during turn 1 movement. I think I could have easily beaten him in the same scenario again if I was more aggressive with my cannon fodder and denied access to a building. That being said I probably would have gone down in flames in game 6 after running into a big fish that's better than me.
I only went 1st in 2 games genestealer and eldar. I won the roll to go 1st agaist grey knights but chose to go 2nd.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Tallaran came in 18th place.
2 Primaris
Company Commander with Kurov
15 Artema pattern hell hounds with 14MM 1HB
My match ups were
Tau
Death watch
Nids
Genestealer cult
Grey knights
Eldar
Lost agaist the genestealer cult because I wasn't in the zone and made a terrible mistake during turn 1 movement. I think I could have easily beaten him in the same scenario again if I was more aggressive with my cannon fodder and denied access to a building. That being said I probably would have gone down in flames in game 6 after running into a big fish that's better than me.
I only went 1st in 2 games genestealer and eldar. I won the roll to go 1st agaist grey knights but chose to go 2nd.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Tallaran came in 18th place.
2 Primaris
Company Commander with Kurov
15 Artema pattern hell hounds with 14MM 1HB
Blood angels
Librarian
Tech marine
3 scouts
Ouch, one Shadowsword (the best superheavy by far) came in 25th. I bet that there were other LOWs that did way better, though without access to the lists I have no idea.
My match ups were
Tau
Death watch
Nids
Genestealer cult
Grey knights
Eldar
Lost agaist the genestealer cult because I wasn't in the zone and made a terrible mistake during turn 1 movement. I think I could have easily beaten him in the same scenario again if I was more aggressive with my cannon fodder and denied access to a building. That being said I probably would have gone down in flames in game 6 after running into a big fish that's better than me.
I only went 1st in 2 games genestealer and eldar. I won the roll to go 1st agaist grey knights but chose to go 2nd.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Tallaran came in 18th place.
2 Primaris
Company Commander with Kurov
15 Artema pattern hell hounds with 14MM 1HB
Blood angels
Librarian
Tech marine
3 scouts
Any idea why he brought the Techmarine other than to fill out a HQ slot for a Battalion? They can only repair <chapter> vehicles not AM.
I can only imagine 15 Artema hellhounds are a nightmare to deal with.
Not sure what you'd bring in a Blood Angels detachment that is anywhere related to "Techmarine".
I thought initially the OP may have meant there was a Techpriest with the Tallarn detachment but then the BA detachment wouldn't have battle forged. I would have thought a lieutenant would synergize better with the scouts.
#19 Mark Parker was the other Catachan player
Battalion
2 leman russ tank commanders battle cannon, plasma sides, lascannon
3 infantry with mortars
3 by 5 ratlings
2 cyclops
Vanguard
2 more tank commanders battle cannon, plasma sides, las cannon
3 units of ratlings numbering 9,9, and 8
Blood angels battalion
Captain jump pack storm shield thunder hammer
Techmarine
3 scouts 5,5,and 10
I'm not sure why 2 lists are running tech marines.
I have the BA Codex. From a skim over both the Lieutenant and Techmarine actually cost the same when you take into account the kit that comes with the Techmarine. Techmarine gives 1 x s8 D3 CC attacks and two at s4 (both AP-2)
A lieutenant would give 1 more attack, all of them at s4 but gives reroll wounds of 1 to all nearby BA units. I suppose with only 3 scouts units this is less useful...
CaptainO wrote: I have the BA Codex. From a skim over both the Lieutenant and Techmarine actually cost the same when you take into account the kit that comes with the Techmarine. Techmarine gives 1 x s8 D3 CC attacks and two at s4 (both AP-2)
A lieutenant would give 1 more attack, all of them at s4 but gives reroll wounds of 1 to all nearby BA units. I suppose with only 3 scouts units this is less useful...
Yeah, a techmarine might be the least-usless HQ in this situation, even though he's pretty useless.
godardc wrote: How do you model your Conquerors ? Looking at my index, I can't see any reason not to take them instead of standard Russes.
Am I right ?
48" range is the biggest reason not to. Sometimes you need to snipe a squad holding an objective in the enemy backfield and 48" just doesn't cut it.
I've personally found my LR's to rarely engage at the Conqueror's ideal 24" or less range, typically trading shots with enemy Arty or tanks. But I also run Cadian so I try not to move my LR's if I can help it.
godardc wrote: How do you model your Conquerors ? Looking at my index, I can't see any reason not to take them instead of standard Russes.
Am I right ?
I used one at the LVO narrative, the only time I found myself out of range is when we played the apocalypse game and had two tables together. Below is a picture of mine. I had an older russ that has a stowage unit on the left side. I modified an onager heavy stubber to be the storm bolter.
I run Tallarn with Sisters and have a Tank Commander Punisher (with 3 Heavy Bolters and a Stormbolter) outflank. After shooting I’ll use a Tank Order to move 6” closer to a shooty opponent unit, then use the Crush Them stratagem to charge the unit (typically only a 3” charge and hitting on 2s). This gives our tanks coming in from the outflank 7”, then a 6” move followed by the charge.
I tried this against two opponents this past weekend, caught them totally by surprise and in both cases worked out to my advantage. The main thing is to charge a non-flying shooting unit that you need to not shoot next turn and will likely disengage on their turn.
Of course you have to be careful of placement and support for the following opponents turn, but If your opponent disengages and charges you on their turn, I use the Defensive Gunners Stratagem to shoot 33 shots (hitting on 5s and 6s) back at them on overwatch.
I run Tallarn with Sisters and have a Tank Commander Punisher (with 3 Heavy Bolters and a Stormbolter) outflank. After shooting I’ll use a Tank Order to move 6” closer to a shooty opponent unit, then use the Crush Them stratagem to charge the unit (typically only a 3” charge and hitting on 2s). This gives our tanks coming in from the outflank 7”, then a 6” move followed by the charge.
I tried this against two opponents this past weekend, caught them totally by surprise and in both cases worked out to my advantage. The main thing is to charge a non-flying shooting unit that you need to not shoot next turn and will likely disengage on their turn.
Of course you have to be careful of placement and support for the following opponents turn, but If your opponent disengages and charges you on their turn, I use the Defensive Gunners Stratagem to shoot 33 shots (hitting on 5s and 6s) back at them on overwatch.
Orders happen at the start of the shooting phase don't they? So you can't shoot and then move
I run Tallarn with Sisters and have a Tank Commander Punisher (with 3 Heavy Bolters and a Stormbolter) outflank. After shooting I’ll use a Tank Order to move 6” closer to a shooty opponent unit, then use the Crush Them stratagem to charge the unit (typically only a 3” charge and hitting on 2s). This gives our tanks coming in from the outflank 7”, then a 6” move followed by the charge.
I tried this against two opponents this past weekend, caught them totally by surprise and in both cases worked out to my advantage. The main thing is to charge a non-flying shooting unit that you need to not shoot next turn and will likely disengage on their turn.
Of course you have to be careful of placement and support for the following opponents turn, but If your opponent disengages and charges you on their turn, I use the Defensive Gunners Stratagem to shoot 33 shots (hitting on 5s and 6s) back at them on overwatch.
Orders happen at the start of the shooting phase don't they? So you can't shoot and then move
The order allows the unit to either move and shoot, or shoot and move. You get the choice.
I run Tallarn with Sisters and have a Tank Commander Punisher (with 3 Heavy Bolters and a Stormbolter) outflank. After shooting I’ll use a Tank Order to move 6” closer to a shooty opponent unit, then use the Crush Them stratagem to charge the unit (typically only a 3” charge and hitting on 2s). This gives our tanks coming in from the outflank 7”, then a 6” move followed by the charge.
I tried this against two opponents this past weekend, caught them totally by surprise and in both cases worked out to my advantage. The main thing is to charge a non-flying shooting unit that you need to not shoot next turn and will likely disengage on their turn.
Of course you have to be careful of placement and support for the following opponents turn, but If your opponent disengages and charges you on their turn, I use the Defensive Gunners Stratagem to shoot 33 shots (hitting on 5s and 6s) back at them on overwatch.
Very cool idea. I like it a lot. Tallarn are definitely the most unique AM. Its hard not to like them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I know the HB are the cheapest but attaching a Heavy flamer to the hull would make it even less appealing to charge.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You could also combine the Defensive gunner stratagem with Vengance for cadia (if its Chaos charging you) for a 55% chance of hitting...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Technically you could use Vengance for Cadia in your shooting phase and then again in the Chaos players charge phase.
That would be a total of 7 command points for one unit though... 3 for ambush, 1 for vengeance for Cadia in your shooting phase, 1 for crush them, 1 for vengeance for cadia in the chaos players assault phase and 1 for defencive gunners.
Best take that grand strategist warlord trait I suppose...
Are Melta Scions still worth it? I was dubious about them before the price hike, and afterwards I dropped them from my list, but I've found that my list doesn't have as much anti-vehicle firepower as I'd like, and I'm going to be phasing out the anti-vehicle tauroxes (ML + AC), and I need to find anti-tank somewhere.
I know for a fact the pysker can be good, I'm just really bad at using him. Same for things like ogryns and Celestine. I don't own them so they don't compute as something I could try most of the time
Would give me 4-500 points to play around with in terms of support.
