MrMoustaffa wrote: This isn't a serious debate other than just theory and pointing out sloppy writing right? It's brutally clear what RAI is here, otherwise an infantry squad with a mortar would only cost 1 more point than a barebones squad.
If people are taking infantry squads and seriously thinking they only need to pay for 9 guardsmen because there are 9 models I'm not even entirely sure how to react to that. That's a level of reaching I don't think I've ever seen before. Especially considering you still clearly have 10 men in the squad, it's just GW decided to treat IG heavy weapons in a really dumb fashion and it's interacted oddly with the rules ever since.
2 guardsmen may form a heavy weapons team. The heavy weapons team before weapons does not cost anything. Those two infantry models combine into one heavy weapon team, but they still had to be bought in the first place. All infantry squads would start at 40pts, then go from there. Meaning the cheapest option, squad with mortar, would be 45pts.
The problem is, the way the rules work, nothing is "bought in the first place", as again, such a sequential mechanism would force you to buy the battlecannon for a Russ before you bought the Executioner cannon (as it "replaces" the battle cannon).
I do pay 40 points + weapons for my squads, btw, as I agree about RAI, but RAW is... iffy.
The other issue is that, say, you're scoring on an objective - two IG infantry squads on opposite sides, one with a HWT. If neither of them has suffered any casualties, the one with the HWT actually loses the objective to the other one, as it has only 9 models with OBSEC vs 10. So there actually is a disadvantage in some ways to having a heavy weapon team.
True about the disadvantage but more frequently I have used the heavy weapons teams as an advantage. Sucking up wounds to avoid more hefty morale checks, large base to deny area, etc.
I am possibly going to participate in a League that is starting Week 1 at 500 pts and running the ITC Simplified Scenario 1. I am looking for some help because I cannot for the life of me figure out how to get the most out of my 500 pts. The later points values are no problem for me. But since I run a lot of artillery and such, and that stuff is way too expensive to include at such a low point value, I am at a loss. I don't have piles of infantry either. But I do have a fair number of heavy weapons crews (mostly lascannon and autocannon).
Any suggestions? For reference I will likely be facing Marines (Imperial or Chaos) or Nids, since that is what is heavily played at my store. Thanks.
exliontamer wrote: I am possibly going to participate in a League that is starting Week 1 at 500 pts and running the ITC Simplified Scenario 1. I am looking for some help because I cannot for the life of me figure out how to get the most out of my 500 pts. The later points values are no problem for me. But since I run a lot of artillery and such, and that stuff is way too expensive to include at such a low point value, I am at a loss. I don't have piles of infantry either. But I do have a fair number of heavy weapons crews (mostly lascannon and autocannon).
Any suggestions? For reference I will likely be facing Marines (Imperial or Chaos) or Nids, since that is what is heavily played at my store. Thanks.
2 x company commander
4 x 10 infantry w/ lascannnon
2 x 3 mortar HWT
498/500
I'm not sure what you meant by "piles of infantry" but you seem to have a decent amount of am so I'm hoping you have 6 squads of infantry somewhere. Only need 4 for this though
exliontamer wrote: I am possibly going to participate in a League that is starting Week 1 at 500 pts and running the ITC Simplified Scenario 1. I am looking for some help because I cannot for the life of me figure out how to get the most out of my 500 pts. The later points values are no problem for me. But since I run a lot of artillery and such, and that stuff is way too expensive to include at such a low point value, I am at a loss. I don't have piles of infantry either. But I do have a fair number of heavy weapons crews (mostly lascannon and autocannon).
Any suggestions? For reference I will likely be facing Marines (Imperial or Chaos) or Nids, since that is what is heavily played at my store. Thanks.
2 x company commander
4 x 10 infantry w/ lascannnon
2 x 3 mortar HWT
498/500
I'm not sure what you meant by "piles of infantry" but you seem to have a decent amount of am so I'm hoping you have 6 squads of infantry somewhere. Only need 4 for this though
You've actually still got a 134pts spare there, so he could take that entire list, a basilisk, and thow plasma on almost all those infantry squads to boot and still be at 500pts.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Dude I hate to be that guy but why are you doing this to yourself? Whoever has made this league has such a bone to pick with shooting armies that it sounds like they've done everything but say "Shooting isn't allowed". I would talk to this guy and tell him these missions are insane, if he has any idea of what balance is there's no way he can look at these scenarios and call them fair.
Forget IG for a moment, what would Tau do in this kind of scenario? They don't even get token melee units like guard does with Ogryn. I'm pretty sure it's actually impossible for them to win in this kind of scenario.
Well don't have other game available on the days and maybe it gets better. Funny thing is organizer is running shooty army himself and yesterday had to fend off ork horde.
It might be worth checking to see if later scenarios will favour shooty more? Otherwise, at least you're playing and making friends.
I'd suggest this might even be a good scenario for mech - with twin flamer chimeras you can at least do good overwatch, then disembark and shoot with the contents next turn. It would also lower your drops considerably.
Scenarios for future are still on the air. Maybe not even decided yet(since this is rather slow league, especially due to christmas and new year eve's plus one week gets relegated to club's inventory week, they have tons of time to design them thorough).
But yeah taking this more as extra games, chance to see what's up in 40k circle of this area, see if more people there might also be playing 30k(my main game), motivate to paint remaining IG.
Interesting idea about chimeras. Though don't have flamers in them. Have one unassembled so I could in theory assemble and paint this in 1.5 weeks I have left(problem being terrain & 30k takes hobby time). If I got that I could field pask, company commander, 3 squads of infantry in chimera's and like heavy weapon team. Tempting idea. 5 drops so I could even get +1 for first turn roll!
exliontamer wrote: I am possibly going to participate in a League that is starting Week 1 at 500 pts and running the ITC Simplified Scenario 1. I am looking for some help because I cannot for the life of me figure out how to get the most out of my 500 pts. The later points values are no problem for me. But since I run a lot of artillery and such, and that stuff is way too expensive to include at such a low point value, I am at a loss. I don't have piles of infantry either. But I do have a fair number of heavy weapons crews (mostly lascannon and autocannon).
Any suggestions? For reference I will likely be facing Marines (Imperial or Chaos) or Nids, since that is what is heavily played at my store. Thanks.
I've just started an escalation league with a chum and went cheesy for my first game - although it was pre-faq so you'd probably have to tweak it.
Catachan patrol
HQ: tank commander, executioner, plasma sponsons, lascannons
Elites: Commissar, ministorum priest
Fast attack: 7 rough riders with 2 meltaguns
Troops: fill up on conscripts
I think I lost 3 rough riders and 4 conscripts in exchange for tabling my opponent.
So I'm thinking massed Mortar teams? Instead of conscripts.
MSU to counteract moral. 33pts/squad for 6 wounds, (5.5pts/wound compared to the pts), decent footprint. Easier to add more, 33pts/squad (may need a piggy-back Spearhead detachment).
Decent shooting at very good range.. (with catachan), 12-13 str4 shots per squad, compared to 10-20 str 3 shots (at worse BS).
3d6 = 10.5 str4 shots per squad, average. Catachan Regimental Trait only applies to the shots roll of vehicles (unfortunately, which means that they don't have any benefit to flamers unless they use their order).
Conscripts aren't hyper(or at all, really) competitive with CA changes. Now you should just use infantry to screen for your units. For that purpose, mortars just aren't as good.
5.5 pts/W vs 4pts/W. Less models means they can't be wrapped as well. If they're wrapping, they're not taking advantage of the mortar not caring about LOS. Heavy weapons means that if you move to better wrap something, you're out of luck. Plus if you want to have other heavy slots (we're guard, of course you do), you have to pay an HQ tax.
Mortars are very efficient, but don't make a whole lot of sense to use as a screen for characters or from assault units. YMMV
I have started using infantry squads with a flamer, and I have been having some decent success when things charge those screeners. 47 pts for 10 guardsmen is not bad at all! I have been running 3-6 of those depending on point level.
azactaylor wrote: I have started using infantry squads with a flamer, and I have been having some decent success when things charge those screeners. 47 pts for 10 guardsmen is not bad at all! I have been running 3-6 of those depending on point level.
Do you feel the flamers do more than just taking a plasma gun would? Just curious. If you're getting charged with them all the time and that's the sole purpose I could see them doing something but I can't help but wonder if I'd still rather have plasma for those games when I don't need to screen things and can use them offensively.
Another thing to consider with flamers is that they should probably be avoided against "speed charging" armies (those that get to charge over longer distances, by getting 3 instead of 2 D6 and the like.) Anything over 8 " and the flamer becomes useless in overwatch.
I guess the other advantages with infantry over mortars is objective secured and coverage since those wounds are able to spread over a greater distance if needed.
First of all I am playing mechanised guard (Tallarn) and since I ran into some problems with countering Magnus & Mortarion in a single list (2k points game) I'm considering to add a superheavy on my own.
Sure I could add a Shadowsword, but I wanna build a TAC list and so I think I would be kind of screwed if my opponent doesn't field something big ^^
So long story short: What do you think is the best allround superheavy, which can also counter Mortarion / Magnus?
Bonus points if he can carry some guy since I'm playing mech
First of all I am playing mechanised guard (Tallarn) and since I ran into some problems with countering Magnus & Mortarion in a single list (2k points game) I'm considering to add a superheavy on my own.
Sure I could add a Shadowsword, but I wanna build a TAC list and so I think I would be kind of screwed if my opponent doesn't field something big ^^
So long story short: What do you think is the best allround superheavy, which can also counter Mortarion / Magnus?
Bonus points if he can carry some guy since I'm playing mech
Baneblade is generally good, but also i think the Doomhammer could be useful if you're looking at transports. The Banehammer can also be useful to affect enemy movement.
First of all I am playing mechanised guard (Tallarn) and since I ran into some problems with countering Magnus & Mortarion in a single list (2k points game) I'm considering to add a superheavy on my own.
Sure I could add a Shadowsword, but I wanna build a TAC list and so I think I would be kind of screwed if my opponent doesn't field something big ^^
So long story short: What do you think is the best allround superheavy, which can also counter Mortarion / Magnus?
Bonus points if he can carry some guy since I'm playing mech
Baneblade is generally good, but also i think the Doomhammer could be useful if you're looking at transports. The Banehammer can also be useful to affect enemy movement.
Looking at the rules I actually really like the Banehammer.
So three more questions regarding super heavies:
1) Are sponsons worth it? How many?
2) What about support characters? I already have an Enginseer and two Psykers in my list which could come in quite handy buffing the Doomhammer. Whats about additional stuff like Yarrick oder a Salamander Command vehicle? Edit: Maybe even Celestine for that Invuln?
3) What do you recommend sticking inside to shoot out? Veterans with Plasma?
Bringing a stock Shadowsword only costs about 404 points. The volcano cannon alone will obliterate just about any target you point it at. Last game I wiped a repulsor off the board before it could do anything.
Shadowsword has the best gun, particularly versus titanic models(which Magnus and Morty are NOT). hellhammer has the most big guns though with two turret weapons.ekther way the best answer to Morty/Magnus guard have are manticores plus relic of lost cadia for re rolling hits and wounds v chaos
Resin Glazed Guardsman wrote: Bringing a stock Shadowsword only costs about 404 points. The volcano cannon alone will obliterate just about any target you point it at. Last game I wiped a repulsor off the board before it could do anything.
Sure, but if my opponent brings only infantry or something like that I'm kind of screwed with the Shadowsword's 3D3 shots.
Also yeah the Shadowsword has the greatest average and potential damage. But it's not even so unlikely that you inflict zero damage:
Think about rolling low for the shots, missing half or more and then there is a 4++ (or even 3++ in case of a buffed Magnus).
I'm in the "go all in" camp when it comes to super heavy tanks. Call me crazy but shadowsword with 4 sponsons is just crazy talk. Make it a catachan for the reroll on one dice of the volcano cannon or valhallan to keep it effective for more than a turn or two Now add a trojan to babysit it to make all the weapons shooting rerollable....ok, it's pricey and will be a bullet magnet but good golly miss Molley!
Captain Roderick wrote: Stormlord full of mortars, heavy bolter sponsons maxed, with a trojan?
Automatically Appended Next Post: (probably best to add an atlas and techpriest, and go valhallan)
Especially the Trojan sounds great. But adding all three will cost 250 points, which is more than half of the cost of the superheavy. Dunno if that's worth it.
In all of the games (which aren't many just saying though...) that I played my shadowsword except for one he got wiped by alpha strike T1. What saved him in the one game? I played him as Talleran and ambushed him. He got one turn of awesome shooting and then was promptly put down the next turn...
Captain Roderick wrote: What's wrong with reserving and rolling on turn 1? Is that not a thing in 8th any more?
No reserves unless a model specifically states it, you use a strategem, or a narrative custom scenario. That means just about everything has to be deployed turn 1.
necron99 wrote: In all of the games (which aren't many just saying though...) that I played my shadowsword except for one he got wiped by alpha strike T1. What saved him in the one game? I played him as Talleran and ambushed him. He got one turn of awesome shooting and then was promptly put down the next turn...
That's what I was worrying about... so basically take 2-3 Russes for the price.
So what's beside superheavys and manticore (im really not an artillery guy) or best way dealing with Mortarion and Magnus?
I have no problems in taking some allies. (Preferably AdMech)
necron99 wrote: In all of the games (which aren't many just saying though...) that I played my shadowsword except for one he got wiped by alpha strike T1. What saved him in the one game? I played him as Talleran and ambushed him. He got one turn of awesome shooting and then was promptly put down the next turn...
That's what I was worrying about... so basically take 2-3 Russes for the price.
So what's beside superheavys and manticore (im really not an artillery guy) or best way dealing with Mortarion and Magnus?
I have no problems in taking some allies. (Preferably AdMech)
I've had a leman russ punisher scare him via sheer dice wieght. Stygies Vanquishers and Conqueror Battle Cannons on Leman Russ seems like a good solution in numbers.
necron99 wrote: In all of the games (which aren't many just saying though...) that I played my shadowsword except for one he got wiped by alpha strike T1. What saved him in the one game? I played him as Talleran and ambushed him. He got one turn of awesome shooting and then was promptly put down the next turn...
That's what I was worrying about... so basically take 2-3 Russes for the price.
So what's beside superheavys and manticore (im really not an artillery guy) or best way dealing with Mortarion and Magnus?
I have no problems in taking some allies. (Preferably AdMech)
My buddy last game used the -1 to hit Morty then used a statagem on his bodyguard termies so I couldn't target them. Forcing me to shoot at -1 at Morty then on a 2+ the hits went to his terminators, who were in cover no less. I had 2 battle tanks and a baneblade shoot at them and did fairly well. If you're Cadian, it should be no problem. But I used the reroll all failed hit and wound rolls on the baneblade stratagem and did enough that Mortarion was pretty wounded when he hit my lines. Then I KOd him next turn. Honestly, if you are playing guard you should have plenty of firepower to deal with Death Guard.
Cyclop demolition vehicles love mortarion and his friends all close together 6" blast that hits all targets in range that you either trigger or have a 50% chance of triggering if they destroy it. And lots of mortal wounds to everyone that automatically hit. -1 to hit who cares!
necron99 wrote: In all of the games (which aren't many just saying though...) that I played my shadowsword except for one he got wiped by alpha strike T1. What saved him in the one game? I played him as Talleran and ambushed him. He got one turn of awesome shooting and then was promptly put down the next turn...
That's what I was worrying about... so basically take 2-3 Russes for the price.
So what's beside superheavys and manticore (im really not an artillery guy) or best way dealing with Mortarion and Magnus?
I have no problems in taking some allies. (Preferably AdMech)
My buddy last game used the -1 to hit Morty then used a statagem on his bodyguard termies so I couldn't target them. Forcing me to shoot at -1 at Morty then on a 2+ the hits went to his terminators, who were in cover no less. I had 2 battle tanks and a baneblade shoot at them and did fairly well. If you're Cadian, it should be no problem. But I used the reroll all failed hit and wound rolls on the baneblade stratagem and did enough that Mortarion was pretty wounded when he hit my lines. Then I KOd him next turn. Honestly, if you are playing guard you should have plenty of firepower to deal with Death Guard.
Since I'm playing fully mechanised I'm playing Tallarn.
Also it wasn't Death Guard it was Chaos soup.
IIRC his list contained something along the lines of:
- Magnus + Mortarion
- 40 brimstone for bubblewrap + changling for -1 to hit
- 3-4 squads obliterators
It was my first time playing against that kind of list and I made some mistakes with positioning my stuff, so he could lock multiple things up in combat easily.
I had 3 Tanks, including 2 Commanders + 3 Lascanon Sentinels but it just didn't felt enough to counter those two big boys ....
exliontamer wrote: I am possibly going to participate in a League that is starting Week 1 at 500 pts and running the ITC Simplified Scenario 1. I am looking for some help because I cannot for the life of me figure out how to get the most out of my 500 pts. The later points values are no problem for me. But since I run a lot of artillery and such, and that stuff is way too expensive to include at such a low point value, I am at a loss. I don't have piles of infantry either. But I do have a fair number of heavy weapons crews (mostly lascannon and autocannon).
Any suggestions? For reference I will likely be facing Marines (Imperial or Chaos) or Nids, since that is what is heavily played at my store. Thanks.
2 x company commander
4 x 10 infantry w/ lascannnon
2 x 3 mortar HWT
498/500
I'm not sure what you meant by "piles of infantry" but you seem to have a decent amount of am so I'm hoping you have 6 squads of infantry somewhere. Only need 4 for this though
You've actually still got a 134pts spare there, so he could take that entire list, a basilisk, and thow plasma on almost all those infantry squads to boot and still be at 500pts.
Thanks for all the input guys. I may flip a couple things around...run some autocannons instead of two squads of mortars for instance...but this seems pretty solid. I just can't wait until I get to higher points values so I can run all my Chimeras and artillery pieces. Vroom vroom, pew pew.
necron99 wrote: In all of the games (which aren't many just saying though...) that I played my shadowsword except for one he got wiped by alpha strike T1. What saved him in the one game? I played him as Talleran and ambushed him. He got one turn of awesome shooting and then was promptly put down the next turn...
That's what I was worrying about... so basically take 2-3 Russes for the price.
So what's beside superheavys and manticore (im really not an artillery guy) or best way dealing with Mortarion and Magnus?
I have no problems in taking some allies. (Preferably AdMech)
My buddy last game used the -1 to hit Morty then used a statagem on his bodyguard termies so I couldn't target them. Forcing me to shoot at -1 at Morty then on a 2+ the hits went to his terminators, who were in cover no less. I had 2 battle tanks and a baneblade shoot at them and did fairly well. If you're Cadian, it should be no problem. But I used the reroll all failed hit and wound rolls on the baneblade stratagem and did enough that Mortarion was pretty wounded when he hit my lines. Then I KOd him next turn. Honestly, if you are playing guard you should have plenty of firepower to deal with Death Guard.
Since I'm playing fully mechanised I'm playing Tallarn.
Also it wasn't Death Guard it was Chaos soup.
IIRC his list contained something along the lines of:
- Magnus + Mortarion
- 40 brimstone for bubblewrap + changling for -1 to hit
- 3-4 squads obliterators
It was my first time playing against that kind of list and I made some mistakes with positioning my stuff, so he could lock multiple things up in combat easily.
I had 3 Tanks, including 2 Commanders + 3 Lascanon Sentinels but it just didn't felt enough to counter those two big boys ....
Yeah well that's kind of a tournament list and it sounds like you have a TAC list. Tallarn isn't going to help much against a list like that because you can only retreat so far. You have to really min max against a chaos soup list. It's kind of obnoxious for friendly games, in my opinion. Anyways, I have run 4 battle tanks, a Basilisk, and a Wyvern + cyclops and done some significant damage. However, I used Cadian and used all those anti chaos Stratagems and HQ relics. If I hadn't done that I'd have been overwhelmed. Aerial Spotter on a Wyvern can really help against things like Magnus & Morty because you're fishing for those failed 3+ saves and with reroll to hit and to wound the Wyvern seems to be decent. This is where the guard struggle, probably the only place. Our sources of mortal wounds were few to begin with, if you didn't spam, and now our psykers are more expensive. I used the cyclops but now it went up 50% and don't see me using that anymore. I guess I'll get to see what the psychic phase for Necrons and Tau must feel like soon. Just removing models until the phase is over.
I am looking to put together a 1000 point catachan list and was hoping to get some advice on one. I don’t have any experience playing guard and am putting this together for a friend. Does anyone have a rough list on what I should be looking for and is all catachan even viable? I apologize if this isn’t the best place to ask this question, if there’s a better place please point me in that direction
necron99 wrote: In all of the games (which aren't many just saying though...) that I played my shadowsword except for one he got wiped by alpha strike T1. What saved him in the one game? I played him as Talleran and ambushed him. He got one turn of awesome shooting and then was promptly put down the next turn...
That's what I was worrying about... so basically take 2-3 Russes for the price.
So what's beside superheavys and manticore (im really not an artillery guy) or best way dealing with Mortarion and Magnus?
I have no problems in taking some allies. (Preferably AdMech)
My buddy last game used the -1 to hit Morty then used a statagem on his bodyguard termies so I couldn't target them. Forcing me to shoot at -1 at Morty then on a 2+ the hits went to his terminators, who were in cover no less. I had 2 battle tanks and a baneblade shoot at them and did fairly well. If you're Cadian, it should be no problem. But I used the reroll all failed hit and wound rolls on the baneblade stratagem and did enough that Mortarion was pretty wounded when he hit my lines. Then I KOd him next turn. Honestly, if you are playing guard you should have plenty of firepower to deal with Death Guard.
Since I'm playing fully mechanised I'm playing Tallarn.
Also it wasn't Death Guard it was Chaos soup.
IIRC his list contained something along the lines of:
- Magnus + Mortarion
- 40 brimstone for bubblewrap + changling for -1 to hit
- 3-4 squads obliterators
It was my first time playing against that kind of list and I made some mistakes with positioning my stuff, so he could lock multiple things up in combat easily.
I had 3 Tanks, including 2 Commanders + 3 Lascanon Sentinels but it just didn't felt enough to counter those two big boys ....
Yeah well that's kind of a tournament list and it sounds like you have a TAC list. Tallarn isn't going to help much against a list like that because you can only retreat so far. You have to really min max against a chaos soup list. It's kind of obnoxious for friendly games, in my opinion. Anyways, I have run 4 battle tanks, a Basilisk, and a Wyvern + cyclops and done some significant damage. However, I used Cadian and used all those anti chaos Stratagems and HQ relics. If I hadn't done that I'd have been overwhelmed. Aerial Spotter on a Wyvern can really help against things like Magnus & Morty because you're fishing for those failed 3+ saves and with reroll to hit and to wound the Wyvern seems to be decent. This is where the guard struggle, probably the only place. Our sources of mortal wounds were few to begin with, if you didn't spam, and now our psykers are more expensive. I used the cyclops but now it went up 50% and don't see me using that anymore. I guess I'll get to see what the psychic phase for Necrons and Tau must feel like soon. Just removing models until the phase is over.
Yeah that was a tournament list, but I was informed of it and agreed to it, because my buddy needed to test the list.
So that's not a problem
Yeah Tallarn really wasn't helping in this case... but in games versus other armies it helped really a lot. Beeing able to zip around the battlefield.
But maybe I should try another regiment?
Also do you think it's viable to field an armoured regiment without infantry? If not, how many (mechanised) squads do I need at least?
Just curious but what does everybody like putting on their sergeants? I've been debating whether or not to use boltguns or bolt pistols or just saving the point and going laspistol.
necron99 wrote: In all of the games (which aren't many just saying though...) that I played my shadowsword except for one he got wiped by alpha strike T1. What saved him in the one game? I played him as Talleran and ambushed him. He got one turn of awesome shooting and then was promptly put down the next turn...
That's what I was worrying about... so basically take 2-3 Russes for the price.
So what's beside superheavys and manticore (im really not an artillery guy) or best way dealing with Mortarion and Magnus?
I have no problems in taking some allies. (Preferably AdMech)
My buddy last game used the -1 to hit Morty then used a statagem on his bodyguard termies so I couldn't target them. Forcing me to shoot at -1 at Morty then on a 2+ the hits went to his terminators, who were in cover no less. I had 2 battle tanks and a baneblade shoot at them and did fairly well. If you're Cadian, it should be no problem. But I used the reroll all failed hit and wound rolls on the baneblade stratagem and did enough that Mortarion was pretty wounded when he hit my lines. Then I KOd him next turn. Honestly, if you are playing guard you should have plenty of firepower to deal with Death Guard.
Since I'm playing fully mechanised I'm playing Tallarn.
Also it wasn't Death Guard it was Chaos soup.
IIRC his list contained something along the lines of:
- Magnus + Mortarion
- 40 brimstone for bubblewrap + changling for -1 to hit
- 3-4 squads obliterators
It was my first time playing against that kind of list and I made some mistakes with positioning my stuff, so he could lock multiple things up in combat easily.
I had 3 Tanks, including 2 Commanders + 3 Lascanon Sentinels but it just didn't felt enough to counter those two big boys ....
Yeah well that's kind of a tournament list and it sounds like you have a TAC list. Tallarn isn't going to help much against a list like that because you can only retreat so far. You have to really min max against a chaos soup list. It's kind of obnoxious for friendly games, in my opinion. Anyways, I have run 4 battle tanks, a Basilisk, and a Wyvern + cyclops and done some significant damage. However, I used Cadian and used all those anti chaos Stratagems and HQ relics. If I hadn't done that I'd have been overwhelmed. Aerial Spotter on a Wyvern can really help against things like Magnus & Morty because you're fishing for those failed 3+ saves and with reroll to hit and to wound the Wyvern seems to be decent. This is where the guard struggle, probably the only place. Our sources of mortal wounds were few to begin with, if you didn't spam, and now our psykers are more expensive. I used the cyclops but now it went up 50% and don't see me using that anymore. I guess I'll get to see what the psychic phase for Necrons and Tau must feel like soon. Just removing models until the phase is over.
Yeah that was a tournament list, but I was informed of it and agreed to it, because my buddy needed to test the list.
So that's not a problem
Yeah Tallarn really wasn't helping in this case... but in games versus other armies it helped really a lot. Beeing able to zip around the battlefield.
But maybe I should try another regiment?
Also do you think it's viable to field an armoured regiment without infantry? If not, how many (mechanised) squads do I need at least?
I've determined that Tallarn isn't as valuable as I thought initially. I've gone to Catachan pretty early and haven't looked back. The ability to reroll the # of shots for the battle cannon is a game changer. I've played enough games with various regiments now and I stand by it. UNLESS you are playing Chaos. Then Cadian is superior. But against all other opponents, Catachan is hands down the best all rounder. +1 leadership for having officers around, which you'll have. S4 which is surprisingly legit, especially when you give them power axes. And, of course, the reroll # of shots for randomly generated weapons. My lists have generally turned into 4xInfantry Squads w/1 or 2 Chimera, 1xValk with las cannon, MRPs, 2xHeavy Bs and 3xBullgryn , 1 Tank Commander w/battle cannon las cannon and heavy bolters, 2 battle tanks with battle cannon heavy bolters, 1 tank with punisher and 3 heavy flamers (don't forget the track guards!), a Wyvern, and a Basilisk, and last but not least, SGT Harker. With points I try to add some rough riders and an Eversor assassin to tie up back field units.
My general strategy is to castle up as tight as possible with 2 infantry squads screening and pushing out the deep strike bubble, ensuring at LEAST 4" between them and anything else to prevent consolidation. Then I just unleash hell for a turn or 2 before getting mobile. Sometimes I'll toss the chimeras, fireball russ, and valk up a flank to apply pressure. Everything else usually stays put. Bottom line, 40 infantry typically seems to be the sweet spot where I'll have a handful of guys left at the end of the game. I've also used command squads with a banner and las cannon team for another +1 leadership added to the bubble and a BS3+ las cannon. With all the other threats on the table, nobody cares about a command squad of 4 dudes.
Stus67 wrote:Just curious but what does everybody like putting on their sergeants? I've been debating whether or not to use boltguns or bolt pistols or just saving the point and going laspistol.
I put boltguns on all of my plasma las cannon squads. It is absolutely worth it as they typically aren't using FRFSRF anyway. Frontline squads usually have no upgrades although I've been planning on experimenting with power weapons since I run Catachan.
gungo wrote: Cyclop demolition vehicles love mortarion and his friends all close together 6" blast that hits all targets in range that you either trigger or have a 50% chance of triggering if they destroy it. And lots of mortal wounds to everyone that automatically hit. -1 to hit who cares!
Well, it's not 6" ot's D6" I know because I always end up burning command points looking to hit more stuff or sometimes less of my own lol. But at 60 points each I am only going to take mine is games where I need to burn points to soften my army a bit based on opponents. They were barely worth it on occasion at 40 but at 60 it's insane.
I've determined that Tallarn isn't as valuable as I thought initially. I've gone to Catachan pretty early and haven't looked back. The ability to reroll the # of shots for the battle cannon is a game changer. I've played enough games with various regiments now and I stand by it. UNLESS you are playing Chaos. Then Cadian is superior. But against all other opponents, Catachan is hands down the best all rounder. +1 leadership for having officers around, which you'll have. S4 which is surprisingly legit, especially when you give them power axes. And, of course, the reroll # of shots for randomly generated weapons. My lists have generally turned into 4xInfantry Squads w/1 or 2 Chimera, 1xValk with las cannon, MRPs, 2xHeavy Bs and 3xBullgryn , 1 Tank Commander w/battle cannon las cannon and heavy bolters, 2 battle tanks with battle cannon heavy bolters, 1 tank with punisher and 3 heavy flamers (don't forget the track guards!), a Wyvern, and a Basilisk, and last but not least, SGT Harker. With points I try to add some rough riders and an Eversor assassin to tie up back field units.
My general strategy is to castle up as tight as possible with 2 infantry squads screening and pushing out the deep strike bubble, ensuring at LEAST 4" between them and anything else to prevent consolidation. Then I just unleash hell for a turn or 2 before getting mobile. Sometimes I'll toss the chimeras, fireball russ, and valk up a flank to apply pressure. Everything else usually stays put. Bottom line, 40 infantry typically seems to be the sweet spot where I'll have a handful of guys left at the end of the game. I've also used command squads with a banner and las cannon team for another +1 leadership added to the bubble and a BS3+ las cannon. With all the other threats on the table, nobody cares about a command squad of 4 dudes.
Sounds like an interesting concept, I think I'll give it a try next game
Stus67 wrote: Just curious but what does everybody like putting on their sergeants? I've been debating whether or not to use boltguns or bolt pistols or just saving the point and going laspistol.
Bolters, it just comes up way more than you think it would, and even in an infantry army adds up to maybe 10-15pts tops. They're usually very handy for chipping off a final wound and honestly, the main use I have is hunting lighter vehicles with them. Having a cheap source of fire that can reach out 24" and hurt most vehicles/monsters on a 5+ is nice and no one expects it, and it's the only 24" range weapon sergeants can get period, so it's not like you have much of a choice for shooty squads. It won't do miracles, but it will add up over time and I feel they always make their investment back. Almost every game has at least one instance of the opponent saying "I can't believe that stupid sergeant hit that shot".
I like plasma pistols on officers and stormtroopers. Most other units can use them but line infantry take too much heat to make full use of them and vets it really depends on what kind of squad I'm taking.
As for melee weapons, I really like chainswords, that extra attack is nice and it's free. From there, usually officers get powerfists, and squads that I expect to actually get into melee and have it matter will often get a power sword (Catachans) or Power Axe (everyone else) The melee weapons can be incredibly handy, but it's very easy to spend too many points on them. You really need to consider how your list works and think about who will make the most use of them. Officers almost always survive to the end and get involved in counterattacks, so they're the natural first choice. My order of importance from there goes Commissars=Priests>Vet squads>Stormtroopers>Infantry squads
Ive gotten a few more competitive games under my belt and this is my rather heavily biased analysis:
I've tried out infantry heavy lists to screen my heavy support vehicles: Hate it. I really don't care for static armies and stuffing yourself into a corner is just dull in the best care scenario (the one where you've already savaged your opponent with a solid first turn of shooting).
Mechanized is still really solid. Tallarn lends itself to this well as any movement shenanigans are a worth taking. My application so far is SWSs with plasma in Gryphonne pattern Chimeras (triple HB loadout) skidding around with Company Commanders backing them up. So toothy but also so well priced you can really spread the threat around and not have too many eggs in one basket.
LRBTs are doing some serious heavy-lifting now. I run them cheap, like just turret and HB hull right now, I run at least 5 of them as single spearhead choices. My current top picks are the stock LRBT and the Executioner. I am waffling between Cadian and Catachan right now. I was REALLY leaning into Catachan but the Relic of Lost Cadia will really pull through when facing Magnus+Mortarion, plus the static 1 re-roll and the Cadian strategem are nothing to sniff at. Going to keep play testing these as the mobility suffers under Cadia, but you're paying the extra 50 point Harker tax if you want to run Catachans effectively.
Lastly here is an abstract of what I'm going to be running for my 2K in the next few weeks. I plan to tweak it so would really appreciate any thoughts on it (should I shoe-horn in some cyclops?)
Battalion - Militarum Tempestus:
HQ Tempestor RoC
Primaris Psycher (Nightshroud and Shield) - should I switch these powers for something else?
Troops
5x Tempestors - 2x Plasma, Plasma Pistol
5x Tempestors - 2x Plasma, Plasma Pistol
5x Tempestors - 2x Plasma, Plasma Pistol
Vangaurd - Tallarn
HQ Company Commander
Elites
SWS 3x Plas
SWS 3x Plas
SWS 3x Plas
SWS 3x Plas
Fast Attack
Hellhound Squadron
2x Hellhound - Ambush with these guys and maybe a SWS and Commander if needs be
Dedicated Transport
Gryphonne Pattern Chimera
Twin HB, Hull HB
Gryphonne Pattern Chimera
Twin HB, Hull HB
Gryphonne Pattern Chimera
Twin HB, Hull HB
Gryphonne Pattern Chimera
Twin HB, Hull HB
Spearhead Detachment - Cadian
HQ Company Commander (Warlord)
Relic of Lost Cadia
I'm loving that list. I'm also trying out mechanized tallarn, so I'm eager to hear how its working for you.
Just a few nitpick.
If all you're running in your chimeras are SWS don't you think tauroxes would be a better choice? Similar survivability, but much cheaper, and arguably 2 autocannons > 3 heavy bolters? I dunno. There's a discussion to be had there.
While hellhounds are pretty good in any case, they don't benefit at all from being tallarn. That's why I'm going to try out sentinels (armored and non) as my tallarn fast attack options. Could be good. Could be trash. But if any regiment can make sentinels work, its tallarn.
My god, that is so much armor for an opponent to chew through! You just open yourself up to horde CC armies or deep strike on your tanks with no screen. Definitely a brutal list!
More Dakka wrote:Ive gotten a few more competitive games under my belt and this is my rather heavily biased analysis:
I've tried out infantry heavy lists to screen my heavy support vehicles: Hate it. I really don't care for static armies and stuffing yourself into a corner is just dull in the best care scenario (the one where you've already savaged your opponent with a solid first turn of shooting).
Mechanized is still really solid. Tallarn lends itself to this well as any movement shenanigans are a worth taking. My application so far is SWSs with plasma in Gryphonne pattern Chimeras (triple HB loadout) skidding around with Company Commanders backing them up. So toothy but also so well priced you can really spread the threat around and not have too many eggs in one basket.
LRBTs are doing some serious heavy-lifting now. I run them cheap, like just turret and HB hull right now, I run at least 5 of them as single spearhead choices. My current top picks are the stock LRBT and the Executioner. I am waffling between Cadian and Catachan right now. I was REALLY leaning into Catachan but the Relic of Lost Cadia will really pull through when facing Magnus+Mortarion, plus the static 1 re-roll and the Cadian strategem are nothing to sniff at. Going to keep play testing these as the mobility suffers under Cadia, but you're paying the extra 50 point Harker tax if you want to run Catachans effectively.
Lastly here is an abstract of what I'm going to be running for my 2K in the next few weeks. I plan to tweak it so would really appreciate any thoughts on it (should I shoe-horn in some cyclops?)
Battalion - Militarum Tempestus:
HQ Tempestor RoC
Primaris Psycher (Nightshroud and Shield) - should I switch these powers for something else?
Troops
5x Tempestors - 2x Plasma, Plasma Pistol
5x Tempestors - 2x Plasma, Plasma Pistol
5x Tempestors - 2x Plasma, Plasma Pistol
Vangaurd - Tallarn
HQ Company Commander
Elites
SWS 3x Plas
SWS 3x Plas
SWS 3x Plas
SWS 3x Plas
Fast Attack
Hellhound Squadron
2x Hellhound - Ambush with these guys and maybe a SWS and Commander if needs be
Dedicated Transport
Gryphonne Pattern Chimera
Twin HB, Hull HB
Gryphonne Pattern Chimera
Twin HB, Hull HB
Gryphonne Pattern Chimera
Twin HB, Hull HB
Gryphonne Pattern Chimera
Twin HB, Hull HB
Spearhead Detachment - Cadian
HQ Company Commander (Warlord)
Relic of Lost Cadia
Heavy Support
Basilisk Squadron
2x Basilisk
LRBT - Battle Cannon
LRBT - Battle Cannon
LRBT - Executioner Cannon
LRBT - Executioner Cannon
LRBT - Executioner Cannon
More Dakka wrote:Ive gotten a few more competitive games under my belt and this is my rather heavily biased analysis:
I've tried out infantry heavy lists to screen my heavy support vehicles: Hate it. I really don't care for static armies and stuffing yourself into a corner is just dull in the best care scenario (the one where you've already savaged your opponent with a solid first turn of shooting).
Mechanized is still really solid. Tallarn lends itself to this well as any movement shenanigans are a worth taking. My application so far is SWSs with plasma in Gryphonne pattern Chimeras (triple HB loadout) skidding around with Company Commanders backing them up. So toothy but also so well priced you can really spread the threat around and not have too many eggs in one basket.
LRBTs are doing some serious heavy-lifting now. I run them cheap, like just turret and HB hull right now, I run at least 5 of them as single spearhead choices. My current top picks are the stock LRBT and the Executioner. I am waffling between Cadian and Catachan right now. I was REALLY leaning into Catachan but the Relic of Lost Cadia will really pull through when facing Magnus+Mortarion, plus the static 1 re-roll and the Cadian strategem are nothing to sniff at. Going to keep play testing these as the mobility suffers under Cadia, but you're paying the extra 50 point Harker tax if you want to run Catachans effectively.
Lastly here is an abstract of what I'm going to be running for my 2K in the next few weeks. I plan to tweak it so would really appreciate any thoughts on it (should I shoe-horn in some cyclops?)
Battalion - Militarum Tempestus:
HQ Tempestor RoC
Primaris Psycher (Nightshroud and Shield) - should I switch these powers for something else?
Troops
5x Tempestors - 2x Plasma, Plasma Pistol
5x Tempestors - 2x Plasma, Plasma Pistol
5x Tempestors - 2x Plasma, Plasma Pistol
Vangaurd - Tallarn
HQ Company Commander
Elites
SWS 3x Plas
SWS 3x Plas
SWS 3x Plas
SWS 3x Plas
Fast Attack
Hellhound Squadron
2x Hellhound - Ambush with these guys and maybe a SWS and Commander if needs be
Dedicated Transport
Gryphonne Pattern Chimera
Twin HB, Hull HB
Gryphonne Pattern Chimera
Twin HB, Hull HB
Gryphonne Pattern Chimera
Twin HB, Hull HB
Gryphonne Pattern Chimera
Twin HB, Hull HB
Spearhead Detachment - Cadian
HQ Company Commander (Warlord)
Relic of Lost Cadia
Heavy Support
Basilisk Squadron
2x Basilisk
LRBT - Battle Cannon
LRBT - Battle Cannon
LRBT - Executioner Cannon
LRBT - Executioner Cannon
LRBT - Executioner Cannon
I like your list and since I got some experience with (Tallarn) Mech I want add/ask somethings:
1) I don't know if cyclops are worth it, they just got 50% cheaper with CA.
2) You are lacking troops; was this a problem for you in some games, e.g. regarding objectives?
3) For your primaris I would go with shield + something offensive (maybe maelstrom).
4) Have you played against deepstriking / CC based armies yet? Since you are missing screens entirely they could be quite a pain.
5) In conjunction with 4): Add some scout sentinels. Their scout move is key to minimise the deepstriking effectiveness and since your Tallarn you can fit them out how you want.
6) Have you played against hordes so far? Imo you are lacking anti horde, so maybe some punishers or Wyvern?
7) Depending on how agressive you are playing with your Russes, maybe switch some BT for conquerors. For +3pts you get reroll to hit within 24".
So yeah just my 2 cents
ThePorcupine wrote:
While hellhounds are pretty good in any case, they don't benefit at all from being tallarn. That's why I'm going to try out sentinels (armored and non) as my tallarn fast attack options. Could be good. Could be trash. But if any regiment can make sentinels work, its tallarn.
That's not entirely true, if he gives them a HB But yeah they would benefit more from being Catachan.
Regarding Sentinels: Haven't played the armoured version yet, but the scout is crucial for deepstrike denial. And you can give them every weapon as tallarn (I prefer Lascanon / HB).
@lash92
I am a little hesitant to give a scout sentinel an expensive weapon. I figured they would be great harassment units, but not pull much weight. How well do they preform for you?
I love the model... and have +8 of them, would love to be able to make a list around them.
Scout Sentinels with Heavy Flamers have been MVPs every time I use them. Cheap enough that you don't care about them dying, fast enough that you can get in range to flame where you feel like it.
Nurgle00 wrote: @lash92
I am a little hesitant to give a scout sentinel an expensive weapon. I figured they would be great harassment units, but not pull much weight. How well do they preform for you?
I love the model... and have +8 of them, would love to be able to make a list around them.
I think they are one of those units, for which its hard to measure their effectiveness in numbers. In my experience they are incredibly good at the two rules which I have for them:
1) Deepstrike Denial via their Scout Move.
2) Beeing a nuisance and so drawing attention. Nobody really cares about getting shot with a Multilaser, but a Lascanon it's a entirely different story.
Also think about that way:
- since the Multilaser is 10 pts you are basically just paying 10 pts for your ML/LC - Every shot in sentinel is a shot less in your heavy armour, so actually you want your enemy to shoot them.
But keep in mind, that this only really applies to tallarn, because hitting on 5+ on the move is kind of meh ^^
The thing with Sentinels is, they fall very low on your opponents Target priority list. Tallarn or Catachan are really the only ones worth taking though. Obviously scout heavy flamers are the only option for Catachan.
With regards to baneblades being alpha struck by even casual players, I haven't seen it. Probably just depends on your meta. I never field a baneblade without tons of other armor. And with double firing battlecannons I don't really care if they shoot at my baneblade because that thing can use Stratagems and do some charging to apply pressure on my enemy and let my tanks and artillery do all the killing.
Be careful with Baneblades, they get alpha-struck fairly easy by "casual" players. The same points in Russes is better if you can screen them.
Would you care to expand, even if it is with anecdotal evidence?
I have had the kit sitting on my shelf for a bit and I am considering throwing a Baneblade chassis in my 2k list for an upcoming tournament, but I am a bit nervous about the points sink. I was planning to do a Doomhammer and hide a good chunk of my HWS and support characters in it in case I don't get T1. I settled on the Doomhammer because I think it's a going to be good against what I will likely face (a lot of marines of all flavors in my store...so LRs, Replusors, Stormravens, etc), and I would run it as Catachan to get the most out of my 2d6 shots. I can see the possibility of it being "alpha struck"...but I also feel like it's just as likely that my opponent spends the entire turn shooting at the Baneblade and can't get the last couple wounds off...which is both de-moralizing and protects the rest of my armor/dudes. It's a tough call.
Anyone have other experiences? Does a Doomhammer make sense? Or is it just straight up better to ignore the transport/firing deck option and run a Hellhammer if I am going Catachan anyway?
And the issue with Baneblades as a points sink is they're very... well, strange.
I've a list of pretty much everything that's ever one-shotted one, and it's very very extensive (a bunch of different units, sometimes with stratagems, sometimes with characters).
Some examples from T1 include Slaanesh Chaos Terminators with Combi-Plasma next to a Combi-Melta Lord with Veterans of the Long War and Endless Cacophony, 3 Neutron Laser Onager Dunecrawlers next to Cawl, charging Raven Guard Assault Centurions after having an Inquisitor's Telethesia power cast onto the superheavy, etc.
I admit to not screening them well, so if you do that will reduce the threats by a lot. But even so...
Hey all, I kinda missed the party, but it looks like conscripts got massively nerfed. Anything else really important happen with new releases? Are conscript/commissars much worse or still useful?
deltaKshatriya wrote: Hey all, I kinda missed the party, but it looks like conscripts got massively nerfed. Anything else really important happen with new releases? Are conscript/commissars much worse or still useful?
Conscripts are dead. They + Commissars got nerfed and they now cost as much as normal guardsmen.
Leman Russes are the new hotness, since you can fire your turret twice if you move under half of your movement.
deltaKshatriya wrote: Hey all, I kinda missed the party, but it looks like conscripts got massively nerfed. Anything else really important happen with new releases? Are conscript/commissars much worse or still useful?
Conscripts are dead. They + Commissars got nerfed and they now cost as much as normal guardsmen.
Leman Russes are the new hotness, since you can fire your turret twice if you move under half of your movement.
Perfectly fine by me, since I run primarily tanks anyways, but it looks like that it's better just to take normal infantry for screening? Did anything else get nerfed?
deltaKshatriya wrote: Hey all, I kinda missed the party, but it looks like conscripts got massively nerfed. Anything else really important happen with new releases? Are conscript/commissars much worse or still useful?
Pretty much all the cheapish FW artillery got huge points increases (Earthshaker Batteries and Carriages, Medusa, Thudd Gun/Quad Mortars, etc). Salamander Command Vehicle went WAY up, so no more cheap +1 to hits on your Baneblade or whatever. The Cyclops went up 20 points, so most people think that kills them. Wyvern got a points increase rendering it pretty unplayable (it was borderline before, +10 is the deathblow imo), better to build your own out of HWS with Mortars.
So the Trojan, which was always better than the Salamander, is now even better than the Salamander.
Yeah not to mention it's a good place to hide your techpriest, Harker, etc in case you don't get first turn (and aren't running a transport Baneblade). Really a badass little vehicle for its price.
So the Trojan, which was always better than the Salamander, is now even better than the Salamander.
Yeah not to mention it's a good place to hide your techpriest, Harker, etc in case you don't get first turn (and aren't running a transport Baneblade). Really a badass little vehicle for its price.
Exactly!
I usually put in an Astropath / Primaris Psyker or two (for the sweet -1 To-Hit power and +1 to saves), a Company Commander (for fluff reasons mostly, to lead the Vanguard detachment), a Techpriest, and then my 3rd or 4th Elite is an Atlas.
That means that the Baneblade in question gets:
2d3 repairs a turn, plus
-1 to hit by enemy attacks, plus
+1 to save, plus
re-rolls failed rolls to hit, plus
a whole bunch of comparatively expendable units to extend enemy deep-strike ranges.
All told, though, that's damn near 300 points in addition to the Baneblade's cost. It's fluffy though because my army is the 2nd Concordian ISHTAR.
Ive built mine based on a hydra chassis with some pieces from the galvanic servohauler kit. Add a softback cover, some ammo boxes in the back, and I think it conveys the rules quite well.
So not too many changes, just mainly nerfing conscripts. Are we still competitive with the nerf? Just a question of being curious, since the perception seemed to be that conscripts were suddenly stupidly good and let Guard win tournaments left and right.
ThePorcupine wrote: I'm loving that list. I'm also trying out mechanized tallarn, so I'm eager to hear how its working for you.
Just a few nitpick.
If all you're running in your chimeras are SWS don't you think tauroxes would be a better choice? Similar survivability, but much cheaper, and arguably 2 autocannons > 3 heavy bolters? I dunno. There's a discussion to be had there.
While hellhounds are pretty good in any case, they don't benefit at all from being tallarn. That's why I'm going to try out sentinels (armored and non) as my tallarn fast attack options. Could be good. Could be trash. But if any regiment can make sentinels work, its tallarn.
Yes, I am considering switching out 1 Hellhound for a squad of Sentinels, but it's hard to scrape the points. I could basically get 2 in there but not 3. I do agree they will do wonders to mess with deepstrike shenanigans.
RE Tauroxes, I do not have any sadly. I also don't like the T6 compared to the T7 and also the triple heavy bolters are pulling good weight taking down infantry or picking that last wound off a vehicle. When you're rolling for 4's I always prefer to take more shots. I will look for Tauroxes to try in the future, but didn't they also get near 100 points as well?
Colonel Cross wrote:My god, that is so much armor for an opponent to chew through! You just open yourself up to horde CC armies or deep strike on your tanks with no screen. Definitely a brutal list!
Yes, horde CC will be a problem, I basically have to feed them a tougher vehicle every turn while trying to kill what I can, hence the 2 Chimeras that I can deepstrike if I need to and hopefully burn down a squad. Honestly Orks and Nids will be a headache but there's very little way around them.
lash92 wrote:
I like your list and since I got some experience with (Tallarn) Mech I want add/ask somethings:
1) I don't know if cyclops are worth it, they just got 50% cheaper with CA.
2) You are lacking troops; was this a problem for you in some games, e.g. regarding objectives?
3) For your primaris I would go with shield + something offensive (maybe maelstrom).
4) Have you played against deepstriking / CC based armies yet? Since you are missing screens entirely they could be quite a pain.
5) In conjunction with 4): Add some scout sentinels. Their scout move is key to minimise the deepstriking effectiveness and since your Tallarn you can fit them out how you want.
6) Have you played against hordes so far? Imo you are lacking anti horde, so maybe some punishers or Wyvern?
7) Depending on how agressive you are playing with your Russes, maybe switch some BT for conquerors. For +3pts you get reroll to hit within 24".
So yeah just my 2 cents
ThePorcupine wrote:
While hellhounds are pretty good in any case, they don't benefit at all from being tallarn. That's why I'm going to try out sentinels (armored and non) as my tallarn fast attack options. Could be good. Could be trash. But if any regiment can make sentinels work, its tallarn.
That's not entirely true, if he gives them a HB But yeah they would benefit more from being Catachan.
Regarding Sentinels: Haven't played the armoured version yet, but the scout is crucial for deepstrike denial. And you can give them every weapon as tallarn (I prefer Lascanon / HB).
1) Yes, I think I'll hold off for now, they're OK but I don't know if I can squeeze them in at this point.
2) Not bad so far, being able to get to the objectives for Maelstrom is the most important, it comes down to being cagey with objective placement when you can be. Once I score it I fully expect my infantry to get obliterated, that's just how Guard are.
3) Gotcha, normally if I'm going aggressive it's with a smite, but I'll noodle around with the other powers.
4) Almost exclusively. I've been playing against Tempestus + Admech + Celestine soup, basically I just have to hope for T1, or grin and bear it then try to counter with what I can, usually I sacrifice a couple of Chimeras as walls against Celestine then blast her and any Scions that have come down around me. Being able to counter-deep strike against them is really important.
5) as I stated to Porcupine, yes, I'm consdering fitting Scout Sents in, keeping them cheap with just multi-lasers I think is going to be best, then at least my opponent will grimace while they're directing fire into them.
6) No, not many aside from the now defunct conscripts. I think Nids and Orks are going to be tough, but I'll at least be maneuverable around them. I do have the 2 Hellhounds that can Ambush with Tallarn (hence why I'm putting them in that detachment). Wyverns have really failed me overall, just not enough shots, or wounds and I've had the same experience with Punishers, even sitting still and blasting 40 shots it seems to always go something like this: 40 shots, with Cadian let's say a generous 30 hits, then against normal infantry that's 20 wounds, then with saves I'm taking down 10 models maybe? And all this while the enemy is within 24" of your line so you're already in trouble if you're not striking and then moving. It's a TAC list, but not amazing at dealing with
7) Yes! I love the conqueror, the points are just not there with this list so it would need a major overhaul. I have 6 Conqueror turrets in the works now, but that will be for my full LRBT army, which is not going to be built competitively If I swapped all my LR chassis over to those I would run Catachan instead of Cadian for sure. Right now I am really liking the consistent damage output of the Executioners, and the stock LRBTs are there for the extra reach.
Really like the feed back btw guys, any other insights and experiences are much appreciated.
deltaKshatriya wrote: So not too many changes, just mainly nerfing conscripts. Are we still competitive with the nerf? Just a question of being curious, since the perception seemed to be that conscripts were suddenly stupidly good and let Guard win tournaments left and right.
Not really, if anything these nerfs are showing people just how good the rest of the codex is, and in some cases showing that there are even better combos than what we were using before because everyone was blinded by conscripts.
deltaKshatriya wrote: Hey all, I kinda missed the party, but it looks like conscripts got massively nerfed. Anything else really important happen with new releases? Are conscript/commissars much worse or still useful?
Conscripts are dead. They + Commissars got nerfed and they now cost as much as normal guardsmen.
Leman Russes are the new hotness, since you can fire your turret twice if you move under half of your movement.
Perfectly fine by me, since I run primarily tanks anyways, but it looks like that it's better just to take normal infantry for screening? Did anything else get nerfed?
Militarum tempestus units l went up, rod of command costs 5 pts now, taurox went up 19 pts. As for conscripts v infantry. I would always take infantry now that they are same cost, ESPECIALLY since they are now minimum size 20 dudes. they are actually a more expensive troop than lascannon infantry squads now(80 for base conscripts, 60 for lascannnon infantry).
deltaKshatriya wrote: Hey all, I kinda missed the party, but it looks like conscripts got massively nerfed. Anything else really important happen with new releases? Are conscript/commissars much worse or still useful?
Conscripts are dead. They + Commissars got nerfed and they now cost as much as normal guardsmen.
Leman Russes are the new hotness, since you can fire your turret twice if you move under half of your movement.
Perfectly fine by me, since I run primarily tanks anyways, but it looks like that it's better just to take normal infantry for screening? Did anything else get nerfed?
Militarum tempestus units l went up, rod of command costs 5 pts now, taurox went up 19 pts. As for conscripts v infantry. I would always take infantry now that they are same cost, ESPECIALLY since they are now minimum size 20 dudes. they are actually a more expensive troop than lascannon infantry squads now(80 for base conscripts, 60 for lascannnon infantry).
Taurox went up, but autocannons went down. So it wasn't really too bad of a nerf. Autocannons are actually cheap enough to be mathematically worth bringing.
Stus67 wrote: Just curious but what does everybody like putting on their sergeants? I've been debating whether or not to use boltguns or bolt pistols or just saving the point and going laspistol.
Not going to bother remodeling the models so just chainsword+lp.
So the Trojan, which was always better than the Salamander, is now even better than the Salamander.
Yeah not to mention it's a good place to hide your techpriest, Harker, etc in case you don't get first turn (and aren't running a transport Baneblade). Really a badass little vehicle for its price.
Exactly!
I usually put in an Astropath / Primaris Psyker or two (for the sweet -1 To-Hit power and +1 to saves), a Company Commander (for fluff reasons mostly, to lead the Vanguard detachment), a Techpriest, and then my 3rd or 4th Elite is an Atlas.
That means that the Baneblade in question gets:
2d3 repairs a turn, plus
-1 to hit by enemy attacks, plus
+1 to save, plus
re-rolls failed rolls to hit, plus
a whole bunch of comparatively expendable units to extend enemy deep-strike ranges.
All told, though, that's damn near 300 points in addition to the Baneblade's cost. It's fluffy though because my army is the 2nd Concordian ISHTAR.
Hrm, interesting - i always considered the Salamander to be better in the current ruleset.
My thinking was - Baneblade + 1cp + salamander = 2+ to hit. Options are then, go Cadia for the re-roll 1's and change the 1CP to 2CP, or throw in Yarrick if you want to stay Vostroyan and want the re-rolls... Then again a Trojan is cheaper than Yarrick...
I guess, re-rolling all misses is mathematically better, but I can’t help but feel that hitting on 2’s will be more “reliable”.
Well I think people went with the Salamander before because it was cheaper. But chapter approved ended that so I'd rather get full rerolls and some transport capacity now.
Seems like special weapons squads are the most efficient source of backfield plasma at the moment. Two (3 plasma each) special weapons squads with a company commander hiding behind cover and popping out when needed is a solid investment. With the cadian doctrine they can put out a lot of dakka.
Alpharius Walks wrote: Thinking of using some Conquerors - does their datasheet allow them to be taken in squadrons to minimise drops like codex Lemans?
They are hugely amazing. The innate re-roll allows them to operate independently of everything else, chugging along at 5" a turn.
The combination of 2 storm bolters (8 shots!), hull heavy bolter and Catachan enhanced main cannon puts out a reasonable number of shots (20+) with the majority hitting on 4+ (or better)... when within 12".
Good basically, definitely worth investment. I've got two in a 5-LR 1500pt list.
Alpharius Walks wrote: Thinking of using some Conquerors - does their datasheet allow them to be taken in squadrons to minimize drops like codex Lemans?
Yes, you can take squads, and I think they're going to be my main go-to now that their points dropped as well. For 3 more points than a stock LRBT you get the full re-roll to hit at anything inside 24" (really 1 point extra than taking a LRBT with a stormbolter)
I was planning to run Cadian Executioners for my -3 save shooting and Manticores as my artillery but now I'm thinking Catachan Conquerors with Basilisks as my source of -3 shooting.
This nets a lot more shots with re-rolls, so ideally more hits, and lets me keep moving my Obsec tanks onto mid-field objectives.
Alpharius Walks wrote: Thinking of using some Conquerors - does their datasheet allow them to be taken in squadrons to minimize drops like codex Lemans?
Yes, you can take squads, and I think they're going to be my main go-to now that their points dropped as well. For 3 more points than a stock LRBT you get the full re-roll to hit at anything inside 24" (really 1 point extra than taking a LRBT with a stormbolter)
I was planning to run Cadian Executioners for my -3 save shooting and Manticores as my artillery but now I'm thinking Catachan Conquerors with Basilisks as my source of -3 shooting.
This nets a lot more shots with re-rolls, so ideally more hits, and lets me keep moving my Obsec tanks onto mid-field objectives.
I've found Catachan executioners (with Harker) to be extremely reliable.
Re-rolling all four dice of plasma goodness is v.nice indeed.
Plus harker helps buff nearby units, definitely worthwhile.
So I know this is the competitive thread and all, but does anyone have a less than competitive and very fun/interesting list that they run with success? I've been considering an all fire all the time catachan list with a malcador infernus, hellhounds and heavy flamer sentinels. Burn everything. Still waiting on the infernus to arrive though.
gwarsh41 wrote: So I know this is the competitive thread and all, but does anyone have a less than competitive and very fun/interesting list that they run with success? I've been considering an all fire all the time catachan list with a malcador infernus, hellhounds and heavy flamer sentinels. Burn everything. Still waiting on the infernus to arrive though.
I would think about some mechanised close quarter combats Catachans:
- Vets with Shotgun + x
- Special Weapon Squads with flamers
- chimeras with 2 heavy flamers
- starken + priest
So Dark Angels chapter tactic is reroll hit rolls if they don't move (same as Cadian Regimental doctrine) AND cant lose more than one model to a morale check (same as the old Commisar mechanic).
gwarsh41 wrote: So I know this is the competitive thread and all, but does anyone have a less than competitive and very fun/interesting list that they run with success? I've been considering an all fire all the time catachan list with a malcador infernus, hellhounds and heavy flamer sentinels. Burn everything. Still waiting on the infernus to arrive though.
I generally base around an infantry company.
3 Company commanders.
Six IG squads. Flavor with plasma guns and Lascannons to taste.
3 HWS, two with 3 mortars, one with 3 heavy bolters.
3 Sentinels.
3 astropaths.
That gets you a brigade and is under 900 points. Its easily adjustable as well, you can cut back on the HWTs in the Infantry squads to get more points for other things. Or switch out a HWS for a LRBT or a Basilisk. The astropaths aren't as cheap as they used to be, so I'm not sure about taking them anymore, but they're the cheapest elite to fill out the brigade option, and they still deny at full power while eliminating cover advantage. Ratlings are another good option.
Then I just point up a second detachment of more flexible units (LRBTs, Scions, whatever) to get myself to the point cap.
Its not a tournament competitive army, but its solid, fluffy and fun. The sentinels use their scout move to push back the deep strike bubble in coordination with your Ratling deployment, which gives you more time to shoot. The opponent is left not sure what to shoot at because everything is pretty equally dangerous. Spread out across the table so he can't concentrate on you. Overcharged plasma and lascannons (or ML and autocannons) are a threat to big stuff, mass lasgun fire is your counter to little stuff. Deploy your HWS behind your lines to deny any rear deep strike. Each company commander should be deployed with two Infantry squads in close support and an astropath.
Ok so say you're a Cadian player rocking a boatload of mortar HWS, a shadow sword, and a sufficient amount of chaff screening models. Probably with some drop plasma or melta thrown in for taste.
What do you actually fear? That seems so good, especially since GW was literally like "hey Chaos. Go screw yourself. IG has learned from their fictional mistakes and thus has gained substantial in-game tactical benefits!" This kind of makes it hard for Chaos to compete vs Cadians.
luke1705 wrote: Ok so say you're a Cadian player rocking a boatload of mortar HWS, a shadow sword, and a sufficient amount of chaff screening models. Probably with some drop plasma or melta thrown in for taste.
What do you actually fear? That seems so good, especially since GW was literally like "hey Chaos. Go screw yourself. IG has learned from their fictional mistakes and thus has gained substantial in-game tactical benefits!" This kind of makes it hard for Chaos to compete vs Cadians.
Well, if you've invested in a shadowsword, you're worried about it getting shot to pieces in the first turn. Or maybe facing an enemy with no targets worth shooting at. If you brought mortars, you're probably worried your opponent is in power armor at which point they'll be largely ineffectual. If you brought infantry squads, you're worried about them getting shot up, charged, or positioned poorly. No plan survives contact with the enemy after all, and thy get just as many points as you do.
Cadians are a castle army. Go play the objectives and laugh at them if they hide in the corner. Setup the terrain beforehand to discourage castling. That was one of the biggest things I've found to matter this edition. When one person sets up the terrain it ends up being a sucky game, but if you do it like the manual says it works out fine, if you do it intelligently.
luke1705 wrote: Ok so say you're a Cadian player rocking a boatload of mortar HWS, a shadow sword, and a sufficient amount of chaff screening models. Probably with some drop plasma or melta thrown in for taste.
What do you actually fear? That seems so good, especially since GW was literally like "hey Chaos. Go screw yourself. IG has learned from their fictional mistakes and thus has gained substantial in-game tactical benefits!" This kind of makes it hard for Chaos to compete vs Cadians.
Anything that can target characters. "Snipers aren't eff-" yeah I know they're not points efficient. They still have the potential to drop critical officers every turn until you deal with them. If they get lucky and kill an officer it's really annoying and a big deal. Not just for shooting, but because the officers are how you sprint for objectives, fall back from combat and fire again, allow you to advance and fire, etc. This also counts for psychic things like Mind War or special abilities, some of which can target a character even if there's screening units and most of these can hurt if you're unlucky. Officers are an incredibly important lynchpin anytime you're bringing infantry. If they start going down your infantry only fight about half as well as they would otherwise. It's not really fair to compare using say 200pts of snipers to kill a company commander either. You're not just killing a 30pt model, you're also affecting around 100pts worth of guardsmen from activating at their best. This means not as many rerolls, not as many 20" sprints for objectives, not as much lasgun fire, etc.
Penalties to Leadership are also a huge deal now. I fought against some Eldar plane the other day that gave out -2 LD to everything around it and had smite and it was a nightmare to deal with. He could put it essentially wherever he needed it and scare guardsmen or hunt down tanks with his autohit guns. I don't think it put out enough damage and debuffs to ensure my line crumbled, but it definitely hurt. However, to ensure some of the guard player's squads ran, you would need to debuff and hit a lot of squads at once, since we have a good 3-4 different ways to counter morale shock with command points.
Other than that, assault units somehow getting through your lines to the tanks. Usually not an issue but it can happen. Anything other than a baneblade is dead the moment it gets caught in close combat.
That's about it though. I've found pretty much every other tactic can be countered pretty easily if you throw enough guardsmen at it. Even -1 hit abilities just can't quite keep up with the amount of fire we put out. Psychic abilities can be rough but that's only because I don't run pyskers. If I bothered to paint up my 2 primaris pyskers I have a feeling even that wouldn't be as big an issue.
There are a couple of things in Nids and Eldar that can do it I think. Isn't waiting for them to get really close/going to them dangerous with the flamers?
Depends on what it is. If I think I have a chance, I'll try to run up to it and beat the gak out of it in melee. I haven't had to deal with nids yet though, so it doesn't work well, but it actually works more often than you would expect. Otherwise, I try to ignore it until I can't anymore. I'm guessing long term I'm going to have to do a dedicated valk with flamer SWS in it for the occasion, but that's more points than I want to spend on flamers right now, and I think I only have three or four flamer dudes and a converted heavy flamer guy.
So are conscripts and a commissar never worth it now? I can only have 3 troops in a tournament early next year at 1k points and I feel like 60+ conscripts might still be a better screen for my shadowsword and russes than 30 normal guardsmen. (Note: it’s a doubles tournament so I’ll have an ally to help screen as well, but still curious)
gendoikari87 wrote: How do people use tauros venators? I was looking to fill a battalion and these things look tempting with twin lascannons
I personally like Tauros units with the twin las – but I’d only run them as Elysian or Tallarn. Simply, because both allow you to keep them off the table turn 1, so you will always benefit from the invuln save.
Going Tallarn can be a bit of a waste though, as you’re essentially just spending 3 CP for the privilege of alpha strike protection – which “might” be better on a unit of Russes or Hellhounds. (though, I do think the vehicle fits in aesthetically with the whole desert raiding, outflanking style.
Drager wrote: There are a couple of things in Nids and Eldar that can do it I think. Isn't waiting for them to get really close/going to them dangerous with the flamers?
Sporcysts on Carnifi dont stack with the Shrouding Spores ability. There is an artifact that's -1 that stacks with Shrouding Spores.
Buzzdady wrote: So are conscripts and a commissar never worth it now? I can only have 3 troops in a tournament early next year at 1k points and I feel like 60+ conscripts might still be a better screen for my shadowsword and russes than 30 normal guardsmen. (Note: it’s a doubles tournament so I’ll have an ally to help screen as well, but still curious)
Conscripts are now the same ppm as a guardsman with a worse statline less options and orders don't always work on them. Commissar's are of questionable value to infantry
Absolutely.
Here an AM player fields at the 2000 pt level:
Baneblade, 4 Leman Russes, 3x30 Conscripts, 2x5 Ratlings, and some Sentinels.
Its a tough army to beat. Actually its unbeaten.
Drager wrote: There are a couple of things in Nids and Eldar that can do it I think. Isn't waiting for them to get really close/going to them dangerous with the flamers?
Sporcysts on Carnifi dont stack with the Shrouding Spores ability. There is an artifact that's -1 that stacks with Shrouding Spores.
Depends what you want the Chimera's for, but, i'd prob drop some of them for the Hellhounds and Basilisks rather than some Conquerors.
The Chimeras are for the 4 Infantry Squads. So I can either drive them up, if I´m playing against shooty armies or I have some chaff against assault armies.
wuestenfux wrote: Absolutely.
Here an AM player fields at the 2000 pt level:
Baneblade, 4 Leman Russes, 3x30 Conscripts, 2x5 Ratlings, and some Sentinels.
Its a tough army to beat. Actually its unbeaten.
That’s pretty close to what I’d like to play. You don’t find the conscripts just getting wiped out now during the morale phase?
So has anyone else considered plasmacutioners with the overlapping fields of fire strategem to reduce or eliminate taking wounds from the overcharged plasma?
wuestenfux wrote: Absolutely.
Here an AM player fields at the 2000 pt level:
Baneblade, 4 Leman Russes, 3x30 Conscripts, 2x5 Ratlings, and some Sentinels.
Its a tough army to beat. Actually its unbeaten.
That’s pretty close to what I’d like to play. You don’t find the conscripts just getting wiped out now during the morale phase?
That's the trick.
Punching a hole in a 3x10 screen of regular guards is easy with a bit of shooting since you are limited in your choices when it comes to removing casualties. With a unit of 30 conscripts it is much harder, and even if they are going to run away in the morale phase, you have already shielded the assault phase. Even better, whatever put your conscripts in melee is now throwing punches in the air and can be shot away from the table, while with regular guards you are easily surrounded without a chance to fall back.
3x30 conscripts should last for a couple of turns, enough time for the rest of the list to do it's dirty work.
Buzzdady wrote: So are conscripts and a commissar never worth it now? I can only have 3 troops in a tournament early next year at 1k points and I feel like 60+ conscripts might still be a better screen for my shadowsword and russes than 30 normal guardsmen. (Note: it’s a doubles tournament so I’ll have an ally to help screen as well, but still curious)
Conscripts are now the same ppm as a guardsman with a worse statline less options and orders don't always work on them. Commissar's are of questionable value to infantry
Well, as already pointed out, conscripts still benefit from the fact that they won't be depleted as easily as regular infantry, since you can still have a 30 man blob as opposed to 3 x 10 man squads where it's limited how you remove casualties. Imo it all comes down to what you're trying to do. It seems afaik that conscripts are still the better screening choice for tanks, because of the numbers you can take them in. They are just more cannon fodder with the nerf.
The upside with normal infantry is that they've got better baseline stats and can hit better than conscripts, so you might get a couple more wounds/more mileage. As screens, they aren't amazing, in pure theoretical terms. Depends on how you're structuring your list though.
The main really dumb nerf IMHO is the commissar. Commissars are now next to useless, if not completely useless. It seems less like a nerf and more like completing killing a unit.
If you really want to play valhallans (or include a conscript screen), make a Battalion detachment of 3 30-man squads, a Company Commander, and a Primaris Psyker.
You can give the Company Commander the Valhallan relic, which does what the old Commissars used to do, and the Primaris Psyker can help the rest of your army.
You also gain 3CP, which you can put into Imperial Commander's Armoury stratagem if you want more relics, or do whatever!
The main really dumb nerf IMHO is the commissar. Commissars are now next to useless, if not completely useless. It seems less like a nerf and more like completing killing a unit.
Yeah this seems true. You are basically failing your morale roll by one...to have a chance to fail it even worse, because in a situation where you need a Commissar to stem the tide you are likely needing a 1 or 2 anyway. Fishing for a 1/6 roll is just not something I want to be doing. Seems like for the cost of the units you would be using a Commissar on you should just take your lumps and move on.
Additionally, if you are taking Catachan (say for the weapon attack rerolls) your infantry are now Ld 8 while their sergeant remains alive, and while he is within 6" of a Company Commander...which doesn't seem hard to do since I am using them to fill out every HQ slot. So in this situation losing half your 10-man infantry squad is still only a natural 50/50 to lose more models to morale. There is no way wasting points on a Commissar makes sense.
Colonel Cross wrote: Yeah I switched to Catachan, started using 1 command squad with a banner and haven't looked back.
This works however DKOK infantry are immune to casualties caused in the shooting phase. Which Is all you really need for a good screening unit And if you want to make pseudo conscript blobs just use the combined squad stratagem.
I'm also a fan of death riders and a single unassuming squad of engineers who use the grenade stratagem to acid bomb a unit to death or carcass shot a low armor unit to death.
You know, I'm not sure how many people have realized what a Combat Engineer squad can do with that grenade stratagem! Potentially 9 kraks and 1 melta bomb or all acid bombs. That is crazy good.
The main really dumb nerf IMHO is the commissar. Commissars are now next to useless, if not completely useless. It seems less like a nerf and more like completing killing a unit.
Yeah this seems true. You are basically failing your morale roll by one...to have a chance to fail it even worse, because in a situation where you need a Commissar to stem the tide you are likely needing a 1 or 2 anyway. Fishing for a 1/6 roll is just not something I want to be doing. Seems like for the cost of the units you would be using a Commissar on you should just take your lumps and move on.
Additionally, if you are taking Catachan (say for the weapon attack rerolls) your infantry are now Ld 8 while their sergeant remains alive, and while he is within 6" of a Company Commander...which doesn't seem hard to do since I am using them to fill out every HQ slot. So in this situation losing half your 10-man infantry squad is still only a natural 50/50 to lose more models to morale. There is no way wasting points on a Commissar makes sense.
Exactly, it's just not worth the points for a bare bones upgrade, and commissars don't do much else other than that. There are other models/regiments that to LD buffs better than something like a commissar. I mean I get the conscript nerf. Even the point increase isn't a huge deal, though maybe a bit unnecessary. The commissar is now actually a useless model. There are no scenarios where it will ever be useful. What would have made more sense is if they had done re-roll with -3 or something similar.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Anything that can target characters. "Snipers aren't eff-" yeah I know they're not points efficient. They still have the potential to drop critical officers every turn until you deal with them. If they get lucky and kill an officer it's really annoying and a big deal. Not just for shooting, but because the officers are how you sprint for objectives, fall back from combat and fire again, allow you to advance and fire, etc. This also counts for psychic things like Mind War or special abilities, some of which can target a character even if there's screening units and most of these can hurt if you're unlucky. Officers are an incredibly important lynchpin anytime you're bringing infantry. If they start going down your infantry only fight about half as well as they would otherwise. It's not really fair to compare using say 200pts of snipers to kill a company commander either. You're not just killing a 30pt model, you're also affecting around 100pts worth of guardsmen from activating at their best. This means not as many rerolls, not as many 20" sprints for objectives, not as much lasgun fire, etc.
Yeah snipers real help comes not so much from points they kill but EFFECT those kills have. Killing key model or two can have bigger effect than killing more points elsewhere. Albeit this example is from 7th ed but importance actually increases IMO in 8th ed with more aura buffs etc but last 30k tournament I went in last game alpha legion snipers really put dent on my plan with couple well placed shots that while point wise was lousy trade it basically neutered two units pretty well leaving them helpless against incoming alpha legion swarm.
Force multipliers dead is worth more than just their points.
Okay out of curiosity how competent this list is? I think this might be closest thing to cheesy list I have ever built though it was just made of models I bought and painted like 2-3 years ago and fitted to tournament rules(opponent wanted to practice for that) so max 1 of each detachment and max 2 of same units. That explains conscripts rather than more infantry...Needed that 3rd troop to be non-infantry squad and no tempestus models. 1750 pts
Cadian battalion:
Company commander
Pask w/punisher, multi-melta sponsons, lascannon
tank commander w/executioner, hull heavy bolter, plasma sponsons
command squad w/heavy flamer, 3xflamer
2xinfantry squad w/autocannon&flamer
20xconscript
leman russ w/battle cannon, 3xheavy bolter
manticore
chimera w/multi-laser & heavy bolter
Cadian spearhead:
company commander
Special weapon squad w/2xplasma, 1xflamer
special weapon squad w/3xflamer
wyvern
leman russ w/battle cannon, 3xheavy bolter
heavy weapon squad w/3xautocannon
chimera w/2xheavy flamer
For warlord(one of company commander) regain CP warlord trait and get CP on 5+ if enemy uses strategem. I screwed up and didn't remember to use the cadian strategem though apart from lucky heavy bolter gaining hit and causing critical wound wouldn't have really helped.
Anyway I was bit limited by the max 2 same units(I almost thought I couldn't make even legal list until I remembered pask & tank commander don't count as leman russ for that and troop issue I could solve by taking the now crap conscripts. IG tax) and lack of models so lacking plasma, lascannons, tempestus etc.
Anyway faced grey kngiths with termi HQ, FA and HS power armour troops, 2 squads of paladins, 2 regular dreadknights and some adeptus ministorum allies in rhino.
I seized yey! First turn I just dented rhinio's and killed like 1 PA guy. He comes in but even with charge rerolls best he got was dreadknight into conscripts and warlord alone into multilaser rhino. And FA squad teleported into left flank where my manticore was alone(oops mistake though I had trouble fitting all behind infantry screen anyway) and charged so that was out of action for game.
I felt pretty good especially as conscripts much to common hilarity had taken 3 wounds out on overwatch, 3 wounds, 3 1's. My 1st turn had been more pants than I had hoped(10 wounds to 2 rhino's combined and 1 PA guy...) but 2nd turn was looking good. I had warlord out alone, one dreadknight to 1 wound and second still to come. I figured I kill those two, hopefully don't need to use executioner for that so can torch one paladin squad and I'm fairly far away...
Then I promptly only cause 3 wounds to the HQ with my command squad flamer. That's it. Literally. Apart from manticore and the chimera's(one too far, one had to fall back) fired and I didn't get single wound through...
His turn he starts tagging stuff into combat, prevents executioner overwatching with inquisitor, blew conscripts out and I'm starting to lose stuff. Only saving grace was his HQ smiting my chimera which blew and took the warlord with him. Well I figured I can still save things.
Turn 3. FIRE! Nope. Nothing. Zip. Nada. Dreadknight? Still alive and kicking. Only thing of note was taking out 4 guys out of squad that had dented executioner a bit. He tagged more stuff into combat, took stuff out(though FA squad trying to charge veteran squad with flamer and heavy flamer were burned) but we pretty much wrapped the game here.
3 turns of firing and I had actually killed none of his units on my turn All units he lost was smite backfiring and overwatch. I had lost like 6, was without warlord, pask about to die, executioner dead and well not much left. And not like I was doing too much splitting I think. First turn I split between 2 rhino's but that was because some stuff couldn't see so I had to split or wyvern into PA guy but I think that's obvious. Turns 2 and 3 I basically concentrated all to the knight that had range. Sigh. Well guess I could have fired heavy bolters toward terminators but not sure would that have been better than try to get that 1 wound knight dead...
Wasn't IG shooting supposed to be overpowered?-) Albeit my list isn't probably all that competive. But sheesh what dice rolling. At the end I was so desperate I tried using rerolls on overwatching laspistol against that 1W dreadknight or even trying to charge the damn thing with naked company commander
Autocannons aren't that great, I'm sure you noticed.
Tank Commanders are great platforms for las cannons.
I think all of the IG players on Dakka dislike multi meltas on Russes, regardless of Pask or no.
I tend to shy away from using sponsons on regular Russes. Keep them cheap.
In a list like that, your power is obviously coming from your tanks and artillery. So I tend to "min" my infantry by only giving them a special weapon since I know they'll be my screen. Plasma guns for everybody.
A psyker and some Bullgryn could have really helped you out, I'm betting. The key to IG shooting being "OP" is to utilize stratagems, orders, and keep your big guns out of combat.
As far as snipers go, Ratlings were in kind of a weird place with their low T and SV. They wanted to be infiltrated to vantage points which usually meant they were probably the only option for enemy troops. They're not that good at screening deep strikers since they'll crumble so quickly. Now they have that price bump and I don't really ever see using them again. I had used 10 in conjunction with a Vindicare and they barely did squat. As the IG player I'm the one concerned by enemy snipers since our characters are so easily put down. But if I'm facing a space marine player (which let's face it, is the vast majority of opponents you'll face) I'm unlikely to do much to them.
So I've been watching every IG batrep on YouTube since the codex dropped, and the pattern I'm seeing with high-end players (especially with nids but also other armies) is that they apply a lot of pressure and "tag" tanks and other units in melee so they have to withdraw and not shoot, also getting locked in combat to avoid shooting.
Now in our codex, we have a ready-made solution to that - valhallans!
The valhallan order lets you shoot into combat, and with flamers your can't hit your own models. Anyone thought about bringing a valhallan vanguard of sws' with flamers to take advantage and nullify that tactic?
Colonel Cross wrote: You know, I'm not sure how many people have realized what a Combat Engineer squad can do with that grenade stratagem! Potentially 9 kraks and 1 melta bomb or all acid bombs. That is crazy good.
6 in range is the issue with grenades (and there is no point to krak unless you target a vehicle) however carcass shotguns are 2+ to wound assault 2 damage2 with 12in range which is really good too, except lack of ap, But ideally you want those acid bombs instead since it's d3 dam and ap-2, 2+ wound.
So I'm shopping around for another army, I'm pretty against base line Guard but the thought of a Tempestus army piques my interest as someone who prefers generally elite armies. Is it viable to build an army entirely out of <Militarum Tempestus> units? It seems too small of a group to be valid on its own. What would such an army look like, and how would it play other than "dump plasma scions down your opponent's pants and hope for the best"?
Colonel Cross wrote: Hmm, that is actually pretty smart. I hadn't considered that.
Although I haven't really ran into that issue yet since I use 40 dudes as my screen and make sure there is no space to consolidate into my tanks.
Problem being those casualties and 2nd turn onward. I had 40 screens. Turn casualties opened up hole. Tun 2 screen was out on left so tagging worked. Turn 3 center screen was out as well and multiple units were getting tagged to combat
Colonel Cross wrote: Hmm, that is actually pretty smart. I hadn't considered that.
Although I haven't really ran into that issue yet since I use 40 dudes as my screen and make sure there is no space to consolidate into my tanks.
Problem being those casualties and 2nd turn onward. I had 40 screens. Turn casualties opened up hole. Tun 2 screen was out on left so tagging worked. Turn 3 center screen was out as well and multiple units were getting tagged to combat
Depending the on the opponent, screens are not a good solution, especially if they are not conscripts. Vostroyans/Valhallans are indeed a good solution most of the times, you will still need screens and many flamers though.
I think all of the IG players on Dakka dislike multi meltas on Russes, regardless of Pask or no.
And I’m kinda sad about that a little. I personally enjoy 3 Conquerors with MM sponsons using the Tallarn stratagem to outflank. Nice and simple, and generally will put you into melta range turn 1, along with the ability to ignore the movement hit penalty!
Exactly, it's just not worth the points for a bare bones upgrade, and commissars don't do much else other than that. There are other models/regiments that to LD buffs better than something like a commissar. I mean I get the conscript nerf. Even the point increase isn't a huge deal, though maybe a bit unnecessary. The commissar is now actually a useless model. There are no scenarios where it will ever be useful. What would have made more sense is if they had done re-roll with -3 or something similar.
Also, also...remember that for a unit you really don't want to fail a morale test (say a big conscript blob, if you still want to try to take one) an Astropath for the same points as a Commissar can take the Mental Fortitude power and essentially be a better Commissar on a 4+. Can only be used once per turn in matched play, but to protect an important squad or huge blob from taking morale casualties I definitely think it's worth it. Plus the ignore cover ability probably will come in every other game or so.
So if I wanted to make guardsmen just pop up out of no where what’s the best way to do that. Making a Vietnam themed catachan army and I want to be able to go “surprise behind you” sort of ambush
Captain Roderick wrote: So I've been watching every IG batrep on YouTube since the codex dropped, and the pattern I'm seeing with high-end players (especially with nids but also other armies) is that they apply a lot of pressure and "tag" tanks and other units in melee so they have to withdraw and not shoot, also getting locked in combat to avoid shooting.
Now in our codex, we have a ready-made solution to that - valhallans!
The valhallan order lets you shoot into combat, and with flamers your can't hit your own models. Anyone thought about bringing a valhallan vanguard of sws' with flamers to take advantage and nullify that tactic?
Nice thought! I actually don't even care about killing an occasional infantryman on a 1...I used to be Renegades until it became pointless to play them. Too bad it only works on infantry...I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to be able to shoot artillery into my own guys again... I'm sick, I know.
Captain Roderick wrote: So I've been watching every IG batrep on YouTube since the codex dropped, and the pattern I'm seeing with high-end players (especially with nids but also other armies) is that they apply a lot of pressure and "tag" tanks and other units in melee so they have to withdraw and not shoot, also getting locked in combat to avoid shooting.
Now in our codex, we have a ready-made solution to that - valhallans!
The valhallan order lets you shoot into combat, and with flamers your can't hit your own models. Anyone thought about bringing a valhallan vanguard of sws' with flamers to take advantage and nullify that tactic?
Nice thought! I actually don't even care about killing an occasional infantryman on a 1...I used to be Renegades until it became pointless to play them. Too bad it only works on infantry...I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to be able to shoot artillery into my own guys again... I'm sick, I know.
A couple of spearheads full of mortars not good enough for you?
gendoikari87 wrote: So if I wanted to make guardsmen just pop up out of no where what’s the best way to do that. Making a Vietnam themed catachan army and I want to be able to go “surprise behind you” sort of ambush
You could take the Tallarn doctrine instead and use the Ambush strategem, it works perfectly for Catachan stealth specialists. You're losing out on their own doctrine, though...
You could also use the Dagger relic, although that just ambushes an officer and an accompanying squad!
Ok so Chapter Approved really messed up my list lol, I didn't realize that points on Scions went up in addition to their plasma, so I'm scrapping them for just more boots and tracks on the ground.
Vanguard - Tallarn
HQ
Company Commander
Elites
SWS 3x Plasma gun
SWS 3x Plasma gun
SWS 3x Plasma gun
SWS 3x Plasma gun
SWS 3x Plasma gun
Fast Attack
Scout Sentinel with Multi Laser
Scout Sentinel with Multi Laser
Dedicated Transport
Gryphonne Pattern Chimera
Twin HB, HB
Gryphonne Pattern Chimera
Twin HB, HB
Gryphonne Pattern Chimera
Twin HB, HB
Taurox
Taurox
Spearhead - Catachan
HQ
Company Commander (WL, Grand Strategist, Kurkov's Aquila)
Elites
Sgt Harker
Heavy Support
Basilisk x 2
LR Executioner x 2
LR Conqueror x 2
LR Conqueror x 2
All the vehicles are no upgrades, just stock to squeeze extra stuff in there.
RegulusBlack wrote: use "Catachan" themed Scions, the pop out worrks the same as Deep Strike, i was thinking the same thing but with Tanith FAO
Actually elysians would really work for tanith - they often use spotters with their Snipers, have a thing for missile launchers and demo charges, never use lascannon, and are sometimes ordered to fight to the death without fleeing. They even used buggies once!
More Dakka wrote: Ok so Chapter Approved really messed up my list lol, I didn't realize that points on Scions went up in addition to their plasma, so I'm scrapping them for just more boots and tracks on the ground.
Vanguard - Tallarn
HQ
Company Commander
Elites
SWS 3x Plasma gun
SWS 3x Plasma gun
SWS 3x Plasma gun
SWS 3x Plasma gun
SWS 3x Plasma gun
Fast Attack
Scout Sentinel with Multi Laser
Scout Sentinel with Multi Laser
Dedicated Transport
Gryphonne Pattern Chimera
Twin HB, HB
Gryphonne Pattern Chimera
Twin HB, HB
Gryphonne Pattern Chimera
Twin HB, HB
Taurox
Taurox
Spearhead - Catachan
HQ
Company Commander (WL, Grand Strategist, Kurkov's Aquila)
Elites
Sgt Harker
Heavy Support
Basilisk x 2
LR Executioner x 2
LR Conqueror x 2
LR Conqueror x 2
All the vehicles are no upgrades, just stock to squeeze extra stuff in there.
Thoughts and ways I can adjust?
You need screens ^^
Automatically Appended Next Post: How is the double HF chimera performing?
I'm debating whether to run my mechanised Infantry as Tallarn with the Gryphonne Pattern Chimera or as Catachan with 2xHF. Any thoughts?
More Dakka wrote: Ok so Chapter Approved really messed up my list lol, I didn't realize that points on Scions went up in addition to their plasma, so I'm scrapping them for just more boots and tracks on the ground.
Spoiler:
Vanguard - Tallarn
HQ
Company Commander
Elites
SWS 3x Plasma gun
SWS 3x Plasma gun
SWS 3x Plasma gun
SWS 3x Plasma gun
SWS 3x Plasma gun
Fast Attack
Scout Sentinel with Multi Laser
Scout Sentinel with Multi Laser
Dedicated Transport
Gryphonne Pattern Chimera
Twin HB, HB
Gryphonne Pattern Chimera
Twin HB, HB
Gryphonne Pattern Chimera
Twin HB, HB
Taurox
Taurox
Spearhead - Catachan
HQ
Company Commander (WL, Grand Strategist, Kurkov's Aquila)
Elites
Sgt Harker
Heavy Support
Basilisk x 2
LR Executioner x 2
LR Conqueror x 2
LR Conqueror x 2
All the vehicles are no upgrades, just stock to squeeze extra stuff in there.
Thoughts and ways I can adjust?
Stormtroopers are the same cost as always, and plasma didn't go up in points last I checked, we still pay 13pts or whatever it was for BS 3+ weapons. Battlescribe updated but they've got a few costs wrong, notably plasma. Is that where you saw that points raise? Far as I can tell it's still 9 points per guy and 1pt for the hellguns.
Stormtroopers are the same cost as always, and plasma didn't go up in points last I checked, we still pay 13pts or whatever it was for BS 3+ weapons. Battlescribe updated but they've got a few costs wrong, notably plasma. Is that where you saw that points raise? Far as I can tell it's still 9 points per guy and 1pt for the hellguns.
Yes no changes there. Just the Command Rod and the Melta which went up in points.
Are many people running elysians competitively these days? They seem to be the perfect mobility unit for my foot guard - they add to the body count and bring the plasma to right where it's needed, and help with the armies that have a -1 to hit outside 12".
I'm thinking of using a few lasgun-armed infantry squads to drop in turn 1 and clear out enemy chaff, and potentially charge to tie up tanks/ranged units. Then a mass plasma-SWS squad drop turn 2 to decimate the exposed core of the enemy.
DoomMouse wrote: Are many people running elysians competitively these days? They seem to be the perfect mobility unit for my foot guard - they add to the body count and bring the plasma to right where it's needed, and help with the armies that have a -1 to hit outside 12".
I'm thinking of using a few lasgun-armed infantry squads to drop in turn 1 and clear out enemy chaff, and potentially charge to tie up tanks/ranged units. Then a mass plasma-SWS squad drop turn 2 to decimate the exposed core of the enemy.
I've just started playing around in battlescribe with the idea,thanks for the inspiration
It's got me wondering though, how do competitive types feel about a soup list? Valhallan screens, catachan russes, etc. It's not very fluffy but I was wondering if anyone was veering that way for competition's sake?
DoomMouse wrote: Are many people running elysians competitively these days? They seem to be the perfect mobility unit for my foot guard - they add to the body count and bring the plasma to right where it's needed, and help with the armies that have a -1 to hit outside 12".
I'm thinking of using a few lasgun-armed infantry squads to drop in turn 1 and clear out enemy chaff, and potentially charge to tie up tanks/ranged units. Then a mass plasma-SWS squad drop turn 2 to decimate the exposed core of the enemy.
I've just started playing around in battlescribe with the idea,thanks for the inspiration
It's got me wondering though, how do competitive types feel about a soup list? Valhallan screens, catachan russes, etc. It's not very fluffy but I was wondering if anyone was veering that way for competition's sake?
Personally I'm fine with it in a competitive game or tournament. I don't really have a problem with a detachment of tanks being good at X and an infantry detachment being good at Y. They need to be easy to distinguish though, I'd not like to fight a gunline with random mixed-doctrine squads that all look the same. I'm in the process of converting up a bunch of Elysians with fixed-winged backpacks to distinguish them from the rest of my army.
Captain Roderick wrote: It's got me wondering though, how do competitive types feel about a soup list? Valhallan screens, catachan russes, etc. It's not very fluffy but I was wondering if anyone was veering that way for competition's sake?
It obviously depends on what you are playing against but if I am fielding max Lemans I am starting to go towards scout sentinels over bodies-either can be shot past while the sentinels push the no deep strike bubble back further. I played the following against an Alpha Legion infilatrate/deep strike list and would take the sentinels every time.
Spoiler:
2,000 pts. Imperial Guard - 6 CPs
Detachment 1: Spearhead <CATACHAN>
HQ
Company Commander - 30 pts. <CATACHAN> Warlord Trait: Grand Strategist Relic: Kirov’s Aquila
Just some bodies to throw in the Chimera with the characters (to minimize drops) in case my opponent has something that can kill it, better to lose a guy with a sniper rifle than a 30-46 point character. Depending on the situation they can either ride around and man the lasguns, get out and take an objective or deploy outside of it and throw out some harassing shots.
Alpharius Walks wrote: Just some bodies to throw in the Chimera with the characters (to minimize drops) in case my opponent has something that can kill it, better to lose a guy with a sniper rifle than a 30-46 point character. Depending on the situation they can either ride around and man the lasguns, get out and take an objective or deploy outside of it and throw out some harassing shots.
Mother of God! 9 russes is truly heroic damage. Not 100% on the mathammer but I'm pretty sure you'll kill a baneblade a turn with that...
The hard part continues to be Cadia vs Catachan. Catachan is more mobile and consistent throughout the game but the Cadian relic makes turn 1 really brutal for your opponent and pulverizes Chaos.
Alpharius Walks wrote: The hard part continues to be Cadia vs Catachan. Catachan is more mobile and consistent throughout the game but the Cadian relic makes turn 1 really brutal for your opponent and pulverizes Chaos.
I'm just not a big fan of the classic gunline playstyle, so I might be a bit biased but for me it's definitely Catachan.
With all of the -1 to hit I think the game won't favor a static gunline.
Also don't forget the +1LD bonus if your officers are around (which they definitely should be) and the S4 (which is more of a gimmick but nevertheless nice to have).
Okay for tomorrow league game scenario is without night fighting but still deployment zones are rather cramped. Side A(having lost last game I'm likely to be this) starts on 24" diameter circle in center, enemy starts from 4 corners with min 3" between enemy units. Exact map seen here:
Load up in chimeras gives me 4 drops. One infantry unit needs to be out. Maybe use it as screen to help ensuring no first turn charges against vehicles. Then if enemy splits up I'll drive forward toward one part trying to destroy it before turning around. Infantry squad "sacrificial lamb" meanwhile tries to delay enemy by trying to stand in way(move toward if I get first turn. With 4 drops I might get +1 to the roll even).
Short one PL as I have 2 elites filled for the patrol detachment. I could swap special weapon squad for heavy weapon squad but either accept -1 to hit right away or extra drop...
Could you drop the sws and give all the chimeras twin heavy flamers? That would give you stronger overwatch and probably more damage overall in such a short ranged game.
Captain Roderick wrote: Could you drop the sws and give all the chimeras twin heavy flamers? That would give you stronger overwatch and probably more damage overall in such a short ranged game.
What in return of SWS's? Note it's power level so don't need to drop anything for points to fit flamers into chimera. Bigger issue is models. I have only one with that(the one I painted on weekend) and apat from me being strict WYSIWYG apart from grenades & pistols/cc weapons in profile the league enforces same WYSIWYG limit as well. Thus unless I find parts, speed paint them and hack existing weapons off nope can't do and not sure I want 3 twin-h.flamer chimera permanently! Maybe one day get couple more and magnetize them.
So I need some help. Me and my friends generally play 1000-1500 points. So I need a list that can take care of marines but also my buddies 1000 point 100 ork list. I play catachan. Any advice for dealing with the green tide?
gendoikari87 wrote: So I need some help. Me and my friends generally play 1000-1500 points. So I need a list that can take care of marines but also my buddies 1000 point 100 ork list. I play catachan. Any advice for dealing with the green tide?
I would add some Punisher Russes. They are good against MEQ and they will murder Orks.
Since you play Catachan I would also try some Hellhounds with HF.
Especially against Ork you need disposable Infantry. Only let him charge 1 squad at a time and not your tanks and stuff.
More Dakka wrote: Ok so Chapter Approved really messed up my list lol, I didn't realize that points on Scions went up in addition to their plasma, so I'm scrapping them for just more boots and tracks on the ground.
Vanguard - Tallarn
HQ
Company Commander
Elites
SWS 3x Plasma gun
SWS 3x Plasma gun
SWS 3x Plasma gun
SWS 3x Plasma gun
SWS 3x Plasma gun
Fast Attack
Scout Sentinel with Multi Laser
Scout Sentinel with Multi Laser
Dedicated Transport
Gryphonne Pattern Chimera
Twin HB, HB
Gryphonne Pattern Chimera
Twin HB, HB
Gryphonne Pattern Chimera
Twin HB, HB
Taurox
Taurox
Spearhead - Catachan
HQ
Company Commander (WL, Grand Strategist, Kurkov's Aquila)
Elites
Sgt Harker
Heavy Support
Basilisk x 2
LR Executioner x 2
LR Conqueror x 2
LR Conqueror x 2
All the vehicles are no upgrades, just stock to squeeze extra stuff in there.
Thoughts and ways I can adjust?
You need screens ^^
Automatically Appended Next Post: How is the double HF chimera performing?
I'm debating whether to run my mechanised Infantry as Tallarn with the Gryphonne Pattern Chimera or as Catachan with 2xHF. Any thoughts?
I dunno, I've tried screens and just found it doesn't stop from getting assaulted, at least not any better than sacrificing a pair of Chimeras to make a wall to cover my Russes.
I've run double HF chimera's, if you're using them for transport for Catachans they're decent, but keep in mind they're the same price as a Hellhound, so unless you're taking them specifically for the transport role they're not worth it.
MrMoustaffa wrote:
More Dakka wrote: Ok so Chapter Approved really messed up my list lol, I didn't realize that points on Scions went up in addition to their plasma, so I'm scrapping them for just more boots and tracks on the ground.
Spoiler:
Vanguard - Tallarn
HQ
Company Commander
Elites
SWS 3x Plasma gun
SWS 3x Plasma gun
SWS 3x Plasma gun
SWS 3x Plasma gun
SWS 3x Plasma gun
Fast Attack
Scout Sentinel with Multi Laser
Scout Sentinel with Multi Laser
Dedicated Transport
Gryphonne Pattern Chimera
Twin HB, HB
Gryphonne Pattern Chimera
Twin HB, HB
Gryphonne Pattern Chimera
Twin HB, HB
Taurox
Taurox
Spearhead - Catachan
HQ
Company Commander (WL, Grand Strategist, Kurkov's Aquila)
Elites
Sgt Harker
Heavy Support
Basilisk x 2
LR Executioner x 2
LR Conqueror x 2
LR Conqueror x 2
All the vehicles are no upgrades, just stock to squeeze extra stuff in there.
Thoughts and ways I can adjust?
Stormtroopers are the same cost as always, and plasma didn't go up in points last I checked, we still pay 13pts or whatever it was for BS 3+ weapons. Battlescribe updated but they've got a few costs wrong, notably plasma. Is that where you saw that points raise? Far as I can tell it's still 9 points per guy and 1pt for the hellguns.
Ah OK I was adding up in Battlescribe so that's where the issue was, I will re-jig the list to get them back in as I really like deepstriking some surgical plasma into the enemy lines and/or grabbing Maelstrom objectives.
What in return of SWS's? Note it's power level so don't need to drop anything for points to fit flamers into chimera. Bigger issue is models. I have only one with that(the one I painted on weekend) and apat from me being strict WYSIWYG apart from grenades & pistols/cc weapons in profile the league enforces same WYSIWYG limit as well. Thus unless I find parts, speed paint them and hack existing weapons off nope can't do and not sure I want 3 twin-h.flamer chimera permanently! Maybe one day get couple more and magnetize them.
Very good point! I'm not used to the whole power level thing so didn't think of that.
You're probably as best at as your can be then - best weigh carefully if you want to use defensive gunners or not depending on the potential harm you can do.
I think your should have a slightly better time this game, dice willing of course!
I finally built up my ultimate catachan tank list and ran it last week against chaos and while it did ok (should have kicked his a$$ but I wasn't paying attention to the 8 dudes holding lascannons during deployment) I had some issues with keeping my manticore and earthshaker batteries alive. So I started looking for something to protect them against things like lascannons. Has anyone considered a void shield generator? I can fit my 2 manticores, 2 earthshakers, 2 wyverns and 30 conscript bubble wrap entirely within 12" of it for a 4+ invuln save. I know it ain't cheap at 190 pistols I figure I'd use the 2cp pass morale test for the conscripts if the meat shield starts to die off. The rest of the list consists of 5x leman russ conquerors with HF sponsons and one standard russ tank commander.
necron99 wrote: I finally built up my ultimate catachan tank list and ran it last week against chaos and while it did ok (should have kicked his a$$ but I wasn't paying attention to the 8 dudes holding lascannons during deployment) I had some issues with keeping my manticore and earthshaker batteries alive. So I started looking for something to protect them against things like lascannons. Has anyone considered a void shield generator? I can fit my 2 manticores, 2 earthshakers, 2 wyverns and 30 conscript bubble wrap entirely within 12" of it for a 4+ invuln save. I know it ain't cheap at 190 pistols I figure I'd use the 2cp pass morale test for the conscripts if the meat shield starts to die off. The rest of the list consists of 5x leman russ conquerors with HF sponsons and one standard russ tank commander.
You are still taking the artillery batteries post-CA? Or were you playing with the old point values? I just can't see them being worth the points now, when you could take the actual vehicles for virtually the same cost. I guess a non-degrading statline is good...but the points increase just doesn't sit well with me.
necron99 wrote: I finally built up my ultimate catachan tank list and ran it last week against chaos and while it did ok (should have kicked his a$$ but I wasn't paying attention to the 8 dudes holding lascannons during deployment) I had some issues with keeping my manticore and earthshaker batteries alive. So I started looking for something to protect them against things like lascannons. Has anyone considered a void shield generator? I can fit my 2 manticores, 2 earthshakers, 2 wyverns and 30 conscript bubble wrap entirely within 12" of it for a 4+ invuln save. I know it ain't cheap at 190 pistols I figure I'd use the 2cp pass morale test for the conscripts if the meat shield starts to die off. The rest of the list consists of 5x leman russ conquerors with HF sponsons and one standard russ tank commander.
Line of sight blocking is your best bet to keep your artillery safe. Personally I'd drop the sponsons off the Conquerors and just start the game with them clumped side by side to block LOS for your artillery.
Also, my personal play style is to use the artillery as bait. People often don't realize that a Conqueror has nearly the same damage output as a Manticore, it's actually better than a Manticore against T6 and T7 because you're re-rolling to hit at 24". You can use Manticores to scare your opponent to specific deployments.
If the enemy has deepstrike/fast assault that can hit me T1 I put all the artillery one one side of the board and deploy everything else on the other (or close to that and do a feint T1 and move away from the artillery and anything going against it) then just move the surviving artillery away from assault and blast the enemy units.
exliontamer wrote: You are still taking the artillery batteries post-CA? Or were you playing with the old point values? I just can't see them being worth the points now, when you could take the actual vehicles for virtually the same cost. I guess a non-degrading statline is good...but the points increase just doesn't sit well with me.
I actually like the non-degrading stat line - means you have to completely kill it. Is the price increase annoying? Yes but that's probably what it should have been to start.
I also like HF sponsons on my conquerors because you know they're getting really close to the action so I want to have some deterrent to assaults and as long as I'm within 24" why not get within 8" and really let them have it Plus auto hitting even if you moved is huge and the catachan rerolls is just stupid...
I am partial to flame tanks myself so I get the appeal, but OMG HF's are expensive!!! If they were half or even 2/3 the cost I would take 3 on all my Conquerors, but You fit 3 HF on 3 Conquerors, you're 2 pts shy of a 4th Conqueror!
The Catachan Conqeuror just puts out a silly amount of shots, and the base price is so good that I bought turrets to start taking 6 of them. With so many shooty armies getting -1 to hit it's great to be able to run up into 12" to deny the ability AND get re-rolls to hit.
More Dakka wrote: I am partial to flame tanks myself so I get the appeal, but OMG HF's are expensive!!! If they were half or even 2/3 the cost I would take 3 on all my Conquerors, but You fit 3 HF on 3 Conquerors, you're 2 pts shy of a 4th Conqueror!
The Catachan Conqeuror just puts out a silly amount of shots, and the base price is so good that I bought turrets to start taking 6 of them. With so many shooty armies getting -1 to hit it's great to be able to run up into 12" to deny the ability AND get re-rolls to hit.
Whoa dude - where did you get turrets from? I don't see them on the forgeworld site...
I didn't go that crazy with the HF though - only on the sponsons. The hull gun is a HB.
More Dakka wrote: I am partial to flame tanks myself so I get the appeal, but OMG HF's are expensive!!! If they were half or even 2/3 the cost I would take 3 on all my Conquerors, but You fit 3 HF on 3 Conquerors, you're 2 pts shy of a 4th Conqueror!
This! Always take ad many stuff as you can, than start thinking about upgrades like sponsons and stuff.
This might be the wrong place to ask, but do Guard tanks inspire the same sort of fear in opponents, as say, Mortarion, 'Nid monsters, and similar big nasties from other factions do in me?
I haven't played as other factions much, so when I put down a Russ to me, 'it's just a Russ,' but when I see a big model on the other side, I think "how the *)#*&% am I going to deal with that?" I'm curious as to how guard opponents feel when they see it (or other tanks) plop down.
exliontamer wrote: You are still taking the artillery batteries post-CA? Or were you playing with the old point values? I just can't see them being worth the points now, when you could take the actual vehicles for virtually the same cost. I guess a non-degrading statline is good...but the points increase just doesn't sit well with me.
I actually like the non-degrading stat line - means you have to completely kill it. Is the price increase annoying? Yes but that's probably what it should have been to start.
I also like HF sponsons on my conquerors because you know they're getting really close to the action so I want to have some deterrent to assaults and as long as I'm within 24" why not get within 8" and really let them have it Plus auto hitting even if you moved is huge and the catachan rerolls is just stupid...
Basilisks degrade after taking 5 wounds as I recall. That's only two wounds less than an ESP going from 7 to 0. Even at second profile, the enemy still needs to deal with the remaining 4 wounds to get it to bottom profile or kill it for 6 more wounds because you can always pop the Cadian strat to bring it's BS back to normal on a big target if they don't.
When you factor in that it's cheaper, brings along an extra 3 HB shots, and might actually make the occasional save against a Lascannon, I can't see a single reason to bring an ESP now. Other than maybe some shenanigans with shooting into close combat.
Well I mean some of those things are on different levels/in different categories.
Mortarion, for instance, is extremely tough to kill...what with a 4++ and Disgustingly Resilient. Just a big old pain in the ass. Same with Magnus. They need A LOT of massed fire to bring them down. You couldn't compare either to a Russ...which is T8 sure...but with only W12 and no invuln it can be handled by specialized weapons such as Lascannons. TBH even a Baneblade, monster that it is, still dies reliably to AP-3 and above.
I am not as familiar with the Nid big nasties, but my general axiom is this: if it is big and the weapons/powers are gross AND it has an invuln, I am sweating. If no invuln, no big deal. Just bring the right tools for the job.
Basilisks degrade after taking 5 wounds as I recall. That's only two wounds less than an ESP going from 7 to 0. Even at second profile, the enemy still needs to deal with the remaining 4 wounds to get it to bottom profile or kill it for 6 more wounds because you can always pop the Cadian strat to bring it's BS back to normal on a big target if they don't.
When you factor in that it's cheaper, brings along an extra 3 HB shots, and might actually make the occasional save against a Lascannon, I can't see a single reason to bring an ESP now. Other than maybe some shenanigans with shooting into close combat.
Yeah, ok, you make some extremely valid points. Can I claim fake news? How about I just bought the stupid earthshakers right before all the leaks about their point increase? I hate you GW...
4100xpb wrote: This might be the wrong place to ask, but do Guard tanks inspire the same sort of fear in opponents, as say, Mortarion, 'Nid monsters, and similar big nasties from other factions do in me?
I haven't played as other factions much, so when I put down a Russ to me, 'it's just a Russ,' but when I see a big model on the other side, I think "how the *)#*&% am I going to deal with that?" I'm curious as to how guard opponents feel when they see it (or other tanks) plop down.
It's not the Leman Russ by itself, which is inspiring the fear. It's more the fact that I'm putting down 5 of them ;-)
More Dakka wrote: I am partial to flame tanks myself so I get the appeal, but OMG HF's are expensive!!! If they were half or even 2/3 the cost I would take 3 on all my Conquerors, but You fit 3 HF on 3 Conquerors, you're 2 pts shy of a 4th Conqueror!
The Catachan Conqeuror just puts out a silly amount of shots, and the base price is so good that I bought turrets to start taking 6 of them. With so many shooty armies getting -1 to hit it's great to be able to run up into 12" to deny the ability AND get re-rolls to hit.
I can say from experience a hellhound with a Hull Heavy Flamer is insane. The number of wounds it forces through for 110pts is great. A heavy bolter is 9pts less but will be hitting on 5's virtually every turn so you're look at 1 hit vs. d6 with a re-roll.
The thing to put on conquerors is storm bolters. Within 12" you're shooting 4+4+3+d6+d6, re-rolling the D6.. Likely reaching 20 shots per turn. Again, great against chaff!
The thing with hellhounds is that the need to get close for the heavy flamer is more of a feature than a bug. It can always charge if things go pear shaped, and even if you degrade, the flamer/inferno cannon autohit. Finally, if you are wrecked, you explode for mortal wounds on a 4+ (and this is a great use for a reroll )
I am going to jump on the conqueror love bandwagon. Its such a solid and reliable tank with Catachan tactics. However I never do seem to be able to justify taking the sponsons. Usually I am moving it to creep into 24" inch range for the co-axial storm bolter re-rolls so I feel like paying 16 points for 2 extra hits on average is a bit pricey.
Question for anyone with experience playing the ITC missions adapted from BRB Eternal War with Maelstrom elements- would you go 9 Lemans or 6 and a Shadowsword?
More Dakka wrote: The Catachan Conqeuror just puts out a silly amount of shots, and the base price is so good that I bought turrets to start taking 6 of them.
Where did you find them? They're OOP from Forgeworld. I have 3 from before (converted to battle tanks back when the Conq was trash - I just liked the look of the turret), but I'd really like to have more.
What in return of SWS's? Note it's power level so don't need to drop anything for points to fit flamers into chimera. Bigger issue is models. I have only one with that(the one I painted on weekend) and apat from me being strict WYSIWYG apart from grenades & pistols/cc weapons in profile the league enforces same WYSIWYG limit as well. Thus unless I find parts, speed paint them and hack existing weapons off nope can't do and not sure I want 3 twin-h.flamer chimera permanently! Maybe one day get couple more and magnetize them.
Very good point! I'm not used to the whole power level thing so didn't think of that.
You're probably as best at as your can be then - best weigh carefully if you want to use defensive gunners or not depending on the potential harm you can do.
I think your should have a slightly better time this game, dice willing of course!
Yeah PL changes things a bit but at least I like them. Makes building army quick&easy which suits us seeing we aren't min-maxing to hell, use fairly strict WYSIWYG(standard pistols and grenades we are more lax) and models have been built over the years for what looks nice so no abuse thus didn't mind league using it.
Hopefully game is bit better than last where scenario rules really hindered. The deployment zones are pretty annoying here too but with the army fitting into small area I'm hopefully able to avoid first turn charges maybe. If not then damn again. Would basically reduce game to standing still and firing and seeing if I have enough firepower.
These rules are also really screwing up regiment balance. Can't figure reason to take anything but cadian(since you often end up just sitting still with no reason to move anyway) or catachan for template dice reroll. Tallarn? You don't have room to manouver. Any of the range boosters suffer from you not being in trouble of getting stuff to rapid fire range anyway let alone within 24"!
And since models are def not catachan looking pretty much settled by that.
Has anyone ever had an officer with the Laurels of Command issue Fix Bayonets, killed everything in close combat, then been able to FRFSRF or something else? It's like a best case scenario. Just thought that would be really cool.
My dumb ass just finally realized that Grand Strategist is 5+ per command point. Not per Stratagem. I probably won't even bother with Kurov's Aquila anymore.
Colonel Cross wrote: Has anyone ever had an officer with the Laurels of Command issue Fix Bayonets, killed everything in close combat, then been able to FRFSRF or something else? It's like a best case scenario. Just thought that would be really cool.
My dumb ass just finally realized that Grand Strategist is 5+ per command point. Not per Stratagem. I probably won't even bother with Kurov's Aquila anymore.
What? Kurov's Aquila works on the opponent's stratagem.
So take both the Relic and the WT.
The WT gives you a 5+ per Command Point spent, and Kurov's Aquila gives you a CP on a 5+ when your opponent uses a Stratagem (Regardless of the cost)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Did Chapter approved clarify if an MT detachment still get the regimental bonus if it contains Auxilla? (i.e. Astropaths?)
tneva82 wrote: Why wouldn't? Theyget regimental doctrine as perauxilia rule. What makes confusing there?
The argument hinges around the following paragraph on page 132:
Codex: Astra Militarum wrote: MILITARUM TEMPESTUS units can be included in an ASTRA MILITARUM Detachment without preventing other units in that Detachment from gaining a Regimental Doctrine. Note, however, that the MILITARUM TEMPESTUS units do not themselves benefit from any Regimental Doctrine unless every unit in that Detachment is from the Militarum Tempestus (in which case they will gain the Storm Troopers doctrine).
The italicized emphasis as mine, but you can see where the confusion comes from.
CaptainO wrote: Ya on first glance it seems obvious but then you dig a bit deeper and the confusion grows. Has anyone had the issue raised at a tournament.
Similarly the Relic of Cadia RAW doesn't specify its a one use only. Has anyone taken it for a tournament?
Yes. Common agreement is that the Relic of Lost Cadia, while presumably intended to be one-use-only, is in fact able to be used multiple times (at least for now).
I always take the Aquilla but I changed my Spearhead detachment containing Pask and two LRBTs and a HWT to a Supreme command (lost the HWT) with pask and two tank commanders all with Punishers and lascannons. It means that in a tournament if I come up against chaos I can spend 1 CP and be able to take the relic of cadia and give it to one of the Tank commanders.
I could even splash out another 2 CPs and give the other tank commander the laurels of command so first turn I can give Pask gunners kill on sight and strike and shroud (they'll all be moving 5" so wont avail of the Cadian doctrines reroll 1s)
Colonel Cross wrote: Has anyone ever had an officer with the Laurels of Command issue Fix Bayonets, killed everything in close combat, then been able to FRFSRF or something else? It's like a best case scenario. Just thought that would be really cool.
My dumb ass just finally realized that Grand Strategist is 5+ per command point. Not per Stratagem. I probably won't even bother with Kurov's Aquila anymore.
I usually hit them with Bring It Down or Aim! and then use the laurels for Fix Bayonets. That way I don't care if the line was cleared of models or not.
Got home from the league game and happy to say that the traitorous space wolf scum were defeated! Or maybe I was the traitors and they were the loyal ones. Seeing I had sons of horus dices that kept rolling 6's maybe so List I took mentioned before but basically plasma Pask, 3 chimeras with 2 inf squads and 2 special weapon squads in one plus spare infantry squad. Plan was to cram army into small space to hopefully avoid first turn charges(enemy deployment zones being triangles going from center of edge to adjacent with min 3" betwen enemy units on 120cmx120cm tables...That's crowded and close! Also wanted to minimize deployment drops to hopefully get +1 for first turn and helped that as per scenario I start deploying first. As I had lost last week and he had drewn I would be the one in the middle. As mentioned I ran into space wolves but rather than up close and personal I expected these were rather shooty ones! Commander of "reroll 1's to hit", 2 squads of heavy weapon guys(one with 2 lascannon and 2 missile launcher or so, one with plasma cannons instead of missile launchers) and 5 wolfens with 2 thunder hammers and 3 stormshields plus claws plus squad of grey hunters(10). Surprising list.
Picture taken after my first turn movement having won first turn and he failed to seize. Unsurprisingly I wanted to go first! Still made plenty of small mistakes but let's see. First turn heavy flamer chimera drove next to wolfens and another drew to right. This was first mistake. I should have stayed back even at the risk of not reaching spot to see wolfens on ruins on bottom-right of picture where was also missile+lasscannon squad on top of ruins. Rest of force was on top-left.
BTW terrain was kinda tinted in his favour I think...He had goof firebase everywhere. I let him do it and didn't even know what list he had so didn't comment. Ah well I like challenges.
Foot infantry went ahead to block grey hunters. Here should have measured actually can they reach pask yet. Either way I dropped one non-heavy weapon guy from plasma squad, dropped wolfen and vaporized missile launcher squad. HAH take that your 2+ in cover guys. 2d6+2d3 pask'ed up plasma shot eats through that. So far turn 1 was good but problem was the chimera I had moved right. I really, really, REALLY wanted wolfens to either just walk forward(that I can deal) or attack the heavy flamer chimera. Here the other chimera was reasonable range to reach on charge thus putting them close to pask & co...Whoops. Luckily he made his own mistake and went for the heavy flamer chimera. Yey! Grey hunters moved up and shooting. I had forgot to use shoot+smoke order with pask who ate some damage as did chimera on left. Grey hunters fired at my inf squad and I screwed up here AGAIN. I should have either taken damage from front all the way making his charge range impossible or from back leaving front line far from pask. Either way was possible. I messed up and did both resulting in him charging, wiping out the remnant(didn't even bother force him to roll the dice) and were just able to get within 1" of pask....Whoopps. Wolfens also damaged chimera badly though lost one to overwatch.
On my turn Pask fell back, special weapon squads disembarked. Crucially I forgot to move chimera OUT of combat so they were still in combat...I had killed them to 1 when we realized so back to 3 they went down. Whoops. Anyway on right with pask unable to shoot I used chimera to buy time. Alas again tiny mistake as I forgot to unload squad. Not critical here but could have. Either way chimera took some beating but crucially wasn't destroyed. I also survived his turn fairly well though pask and chimera on left went to worse stage. Chimera blew out and infantry squad came out. He tagged them into combat but that wasn't too much of a worry. Curious event this turn though was rather than charge into special weapon squad wolfens started to run away! 3 left, I had 2 squads of 6 there. Okay he would have to eat overwatch of 3 flamers, would likely kill them, tag other squad into combat, I fall back and he charges and eats overwatch of flamer+2 plasma. Feels like odds were there in his favour but as objective was killing power levels guess he tried to save expensive wolves rather than try to kill the 4 PL's. Either way this ended badly when I chased and with 15 flamer hits and 9 wounds from trio of flamers they went down. Pask fired up and killed all but 2 grey hunters while infantry squad formed up screen. Took them down by overwatch and combat. Even for safety brought remaining squad to combat though I should have headed toward plasma squad but they died to lasguns, multilasers, heavy bolter and 2 rounds of shooting from pask. I the end he had just his warlord where I wouldn't get in time(especially since pask and chimera were on last bracket). I had lost 2 chimera, one squad of infantry, half wounded chimera and half wounded pask so 7+3+3+6+6=25 PL. Pretty clear win for me.
So what did I learn?
a) Pask with plasma is plain rude!
b) people dismiss flamers a lot but at least in these league scenarios and power levels I like them. Range is no issue in these scenarios and PL ensures they aren't expensive per se and auto hit is just soooo good especially as I struggle generally to hit. And that move 12" shoot 2d6 autohit chimera is just rude!
c) chimera's surprised me lot. Speed was handy, ability to actually charge with something that isn't quaranteed to melt in return could be useful, gave me less drops and fired okay. Wish I didn't have multi-lasers now that 8th ed made them SUCK.
d) I really, really, REALLY need to tighten up on these silly mistakes. Chimera movement on turn 1 wasn't that bad. It's not QUITE so obvious though should have realized I dont' want to make it any easier for wolvens to get to center. Walk slowly without charging or charge the bait flamer chimera. Those should be options I present. The casualty removal was plain stupid. I should have just picked one way to protect and be done. Of course whole screen might have been unneeded as they were rather far as he had wanted to keep them out of LOS. Mistake IMO as the heavy weapon guys were primary target from get go. Even if hunters were in open I wouldn't have likely fired at them. MAYBE with inafntry squad. And not moving heavy flamer chimera out of combat was unacceptable. Not used to vehicles being locked in combat and at home we are rather lax about these and timing. Here we would have just moved chimera to side a bit as that was obviious intent and I wouldn't gain anything by having him in that positiion(but shoot). Obviously not asking this on league game though.
e) I really, really, REALLY dislike 8th ed terrain. Apart from those ruins heavy weapons hid it impacted nothing really. Pask is 99% covered up by ruin? Nope nothing. Nothing slows down, nothing really blocked LOS. Bleargh.
Next game is 60PL and I get to use battallion. Yey! Next year though due to christmas.
Colonel Cross wrote: Has anyone ever had an officer with the Laurels of Command issue Fix Bayonets, killed everything in close combat, then been able to FRFSRF or something else? It's like a best case scenario. Just thought that would be really cool.
My dumb ass just finally realized that Grand Strategist is 5+ per command point. Not per Stratagem. I probably won't even bother with Kurov's Aquila anymore.
I usually hit them with Bring It Down or Aim! and then use the laurels for Fix Bayonets. That way I don't care if the line was cleared of models or not.
How could you use any order other than Get Back in the Fight or Fix Bayonets first?
Colonel Cross wrote: How could you use any order other than Get Back in the Fight or Fix Bayonets first?
I strongly, strongly advise everyone in this thread go take a very close look at the rules for Orders. I see people doing them wrong constantly, and it's important to know how they work since they're incredibly core to the faction.
All Orders must be issued at the beginning of the phase, but only two take effect immediately: Fix Bayonets! and Move! Move! Move!.
All the rest, including all the regimental Orders, apply an effect until the end of the current phase. You can order FRFSRF, have your Russ open up a transport, and then spray down the passengers later in the turn with rapid fire 2 lasguns. Or in the case cited, order Bring it Down/Take Aim and then Fix Bayonets to Fight with re-rolls.
Yeah PL changes things a bit but at least I like them. Makes building army quick&easy which suits us seeing we aren't min-maxing to hell, use fairly strict WYSIWYG(standard pistols and grenades we are more lax) and models have been built over the years for what looks nice so no abuse thus didn't mind league using it.
Hopefully game is bit better than last where scenario rules really hindered. The deployment zones are pretty annoying here too but with the army fitting into small area I'm hopefully able to avoid first turn charges maybe. If not then damn again. Would basically reduce game to standing still and firing and seeing if I have enough firepower.
These rules are also really screwing up regiment balance. Can't figure reason to take anything but cadian(since you often end up just sitting still with no reason to move anyway) or catachan for template dice reroll. Tallarn? You don't have room to manouver. Any of the range boosters suffer from you not being in trouble of getting stuff to rapid fire range anyway let alone within 24"!
And since models are def not catachan looking pretty much settled by that.
1. Might it not also cause everyone taking every possible upgrade?
2. The tournament setup is pretty nuts. I'd be taking a couple of battalions at your level and you're stuck with a patrol! Makes it hard to be guard.
3. Remember your can always use the doctrines whatever your appearance, it's the warlord traits and relics you can't use if you're not "official" <regiment> (I think). Catachan would probably do pretty well, especially if you got heavy flamers on vehicles but yeah magnetise if you can
Thoughts on Knight vs Baneblande Variant alongside Guard? Prices seem similar, Tanks with more shooting but Knight with better BS and better melee. Hard to tell which is more useful in the long run.
Colonel Cross wrote: How could you use any order other than Get Back in the Fight or Fix Bayonets first?
I strongly, strongly advise everyone in this thread go take a very close look at the rules for Orders. I see people doing them wrong constantly, and it's important to know how they work since they're incredibly core to the faction.
All Orders must be issued at the beginning of the phase, but only two take effect immediately: Fix Bayonets! and Move! Move! Move!.
All the rest, including all the regimental Orders, apply an effect to the end of the current phase. You can order FRFSRF, have your Russ open up a transport, and then spray it down later in the turn with rapid fire 2 lasguns. Or in the case cited, order Bring it Down/Take Aim and then Fix Bayonets to Fight with re-rolls.
I use orders correctly but I can't believe I never thought of using rerolls in combat ... my power sword Catachan SGTs have been missing out!
1. Might it not also cause everyone taking every possible upgrade?
2. The tournament setup is pretty nuts. I'd be taking a couple of battalions at your level and you're stuck with a patrol! Makes it hard to be guard.
3. Remember your can always use the doctrines whatever your appearance, it's the warlord traits and relics you can't use if you're not "official" <regiment> (I think). Catachan would probably do pretty well, especially if you got heavy flamers on vehicles but yeah magnetise if you can
a) not when players are reasonable and strict WYSIWYG is enforced. Who has army modelled with all the upgrades modelled in? Makes you screwed when you play points then! People complain about "people just take all maxed out upgrades!" but does that happen IN PRACTICE?
3) that's the sort of regiment hopping I don't like. It's just gaming for effect. And btw traits and relics are same as doctrine. You use doctrine, you have access to the rest regardless of models and paint job. But still I play for models and fluff. Using cadians as catachan just for sake of gaming effect is no go.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hmm next scenario is going to be less weird than before. So 60PL. Deployment on one quarter with 12" diameter circle in the middle to separate so deploying futher back allows avoiding first turn charges unless we are talking super fast units or deep strikers. Yey! Weird rules are on start of your turn you roll 3 dice and for each 6 you get to cause mortal wounds(bleargh) a bit to enemy and on turn 3 objective is placed on center of random quarter. Game ends randomly from turn 5 onward and wipeout still doesn't end it(so you could lose by getting objective camper wiped out by meteorites).
So good thing is I can do gunline parts without worrying too much about having enemy right in my face before getting to shoot. BAD thing is I might need to move to enemy deployment zone on worst case scenario! I might find use for those chimera's again...
Tentative plan is pask+russ+company commander+3-4 infantry squad, that heavy flamer chimera+SWS and manticore or so. Issue is taking objective from distance. Maybe fit vendetta instead of russ though BS4+ and moving penalty for lascannons makes that less awesome than I thought.
It's a shame that you can't use centaur carriers, they might come in real handy on that mission to scoot onto a remote objective. Or at least I'm assuming you can't get hold of a forgeworld vehicle and paint it in time, or a 1/35 bren carrier model.
Captain Roderick wrote: It's a shame that you can't use centaur carriers, they might come in real handy on that mission to scoot onto a remote objective. Or at least I'm assuming you can't get hold of a forgeworld vehicle and paint it in time, or a 1/35 bren carrier model.
What's your detachment limits?
Yeah no money and no interest buying more 40k models now. Future purchaces are 30k blood angels.
Captain Roderick wrote: It's a shame that you can't use centaur carriers, they might come in real handy on that mission to scoot onto a remote objective. Or at least I'm assuming you can't get hold of a forgeworld vehicle and paint it in time, or a 1/35 bren carrier model.
What's your detachment limits?
Yeah no money and no interest buying more 40k models now. Future purchaces are 30k blood angels.
Detachment is one battallion. That's it.
Sounds like you're on track then, I look forward to hearing your next battle report.
Can you use valkyrie instead of vendetta? It's less scary and can carry a full squad for objective grabbing.
Requizen wrote: Thoughts on Knight vs Baneblande Variant alongside Guard? Prices seem similar, Tanks with more shooting but Knight with better BS and better melee. Hard to tell which is more useful in the long run.
Baneblades drastically outperform Knights currently; knights are very very overpriced.
Colonel Cross wrote: I use orders correctly but I can't believe I never thought of using rerolls in combat ... my power sword Catachan SGTs have been missing out!
Well, just be aware the only way to do that is with the Laurels of Command by issuing both Take Aim / Bring It Down and then Fix Bayonets to the same unit. All the order buffs expire at the end of the shooting phase, so they won't affect fighting.
I have a 2000 point ITC tourney coming up at my store in late Jan. People at my store can be a little testy about LoW (though not FW oddly), but I have been given the green light that this is to be a competitive event...and I am toying with running a 3 Baneblade list based off the excellent advice I have received from people on the forum. Here is my rough outline:
Spoiler:
Catachan Battalion HQ Company Commander with Grand Strategist and possibly Aquila (but also possibly Laurels)
Primaris Psyker with Barrier/Nightshroud
Troop 3x Intantry Squad
Elite Astropath with LP and Mental Fortitude (basically my Commissar)
Harker
Techpriest
Heavy 2x Leman Russ Conqueror
Transport Trojan with HK missile (they have BS3+...needed to spend 6 pts)
Catachan Super Heavy Detachment Baneblade
Banehammer (?)
Shadowsword
The basic idea here is to have the infantry screen my Russes, combining their squads if necessary and supporting with CC and Astropath (aka bootleg commissar). This little ball moves slowly up the field so Conquerors can get the sweet, sweet re-rolls to their turret shots. Harker, the techpriest, the Primaris and the Trojan support the Baneblades to taste. I am pretty confident I want a Baneblade and a Shadowsword, and a Banehammer seems good in some situations, but I also don't have to points to take HWS to hide in it...and the main gun may be too situational. There is a guy who brings Stormraven(s) ...and a gal with three Helldrakes...so I could see it working on those effectively. But I am just not sure.
Any other thoughts or pointers? I am open to whatever. The Baneblades are not assembled yet...and I only own two kits. I also own plenty of artillery (Thudd guns, Earthshakers, Wyvern, Griffon, etc) and some veterans, HWS, and chimeras, but I was wanting to try this out as I absolutely love the Baneblade kit and am kinda giddy with the prospect of building and painting three.
EDIT: Also it occurs to me that Cadian could work for the Battalion as well...especially if I am going to be seeing a lot of Chaos. But then I can't take Harker (which frees up 50 pts)...and the Trojan is also kinda useless (unless I also take the Baneblades as Cadian to open up Overlapping Fields of Fire). Thoughts?
I'd consider seeing if you an finagle another detachment out of it.
You're 30 points away from splitting the elites off into another Vanguard detachment and earning +1 CP, for example.
Also, not sure you need the Conquerors, I'd probably drop one and replace the Banehammer with a Baneblade (unless you plan to use it as a transport) and then use the extra maybe to fill out another detachment, upgrading the existing Conqueror to a different type of Russ to use as a tank commander for the Vanguard detachment, for example.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I'd consider seeing if you an finagle another detachment out of it.
You're 30 points away from splitting the elites off into another Vanguard detachment and earning +1 CP, for example.
Also, not sure you need the Conquerors, I'd probably drop one and replace the Banehammer with a Baneblade (unless you plan to use it as a transport) and then use the extra maybe to fill out another detachment, upgrading the existing Conqueror to a different type of Russ to use as a tank commander for the Vanguard detachment, for example.
I was considering maybe running Punishers instead as anti-horde insurance anyway...so a TC Punisher would be good in that role. I can definitely see breaking out the elites into another detachment. Hmmm. Seems I have some thinking to do.
EDIT: OR, is it worth it to try to go Brigade...dropping one Conqueror and making the other a Punisher, running two Mortar HWS, and adding three separate Scout Sentinels? Gotta look at my math but I may be able to finagle it.
DOUBLE EDIT: Forgot I need 6 troops for that...sooooo no. Not gonna work. Oh well
Just for clarity, can I use the same physic power twice in one turn in matched play if it is two different psychers. (mostly worried about being able to cast psychic barrier twice in one go)
I used to play orks back in the day and was wondering if I could use two weird boys to teleport two mobz in the first turn.
CaptainO wrote: Just for clarity, can I use the same physic power twice in one turn in matched play if it is two different psychers. (mostly worried about being able to cast psychic barrier twice in one go)
I used to play orks back in the day and was wondering if I could use two weird boys to teleport two mobz in the first turn.
No sir, you can only ATTEMPT each psychic power once per turn (excluding Smite). So you get one shot at it, by one psyker.
EDIT: Also it occurs to me that Cadian could work for the Battalion as well...especially if I am going to be seeing a lot of Chaos. But then I can't take Harker (which frees up 50 pts)...and the Trojan is also kinda useless (unless I also take the Baneblades as Cadian to open up Overlapping Fields of Fire). Thoughts?
This seems like fun. If I ever ran a LoW tank, I'd go Valhallan though. Having to get each of those tanks down to their last 7 wounds before seeing any effectiveness drop-off is absolutely worth it. Plus you could swap the commissar astropath out thanks to Valhallan Grim Demeanor (another techpriest, maybe?)
Also looks like you'd be in some trouble against massed infantry. Could swap the conquerors for punishers?
EDIT: Also it occurs to me that Cadian could work for the Battalion as well...especially if I am going to be seeing a lot of Chaos. But then I can't take Harker (which frees up 50 pts)...and the Trojan is also kinda useless (unless I also take the Baneblades as Cadian to open up Overlapping Fields of Fire). Thoughts?
This seems like fun. If I ever ran a LoW tank, I'd go Valhallan though. Having to get each of those tanks down to their last 7 wounds before seeing any effectiveness drop-off is absolutely worth it. Plus you could swap the commissar astropath out thanks to Valhallan Grim Demeanor (another techpriest, maybe?)
Also looks like you'd be in some trouble against massed infantry. Could swap the conquerors for punishers?
Yeah I am almost certainly going to go Punishers the more I think about it. I think I will take the earlier advice and break my Elites out into their own Vanguard with a Punisher TCHQ. Then I will take two Mortar HWS in the Battalion and that will have to be my anti-horde measures. I will then trade the Banehammer for a second Baneblade, which in a pinch can target an infantry blob and make a pretty big dent.
As for going Valhallan, while it sounds great I just don't think I can justify taking Baneblades at all without being able to have a bit of a reroll on their random number of shots. It just helps smooth them out too much to pass up.
CaptainO wrote: Just for clarity, can I use the same physic power twice in one turn in matched play if it is two different psychers. (mostly worried about being able to cast psychic barrier twice in one go)
I used to play orks back in the day and was wondering if I could use two weird boys to teleport two mobz in the first turn.
No, sadly matched play only allows one attempt at a spell per phase, even if you fail it, you cannot try again with anyone.
Okay so stupid crazy idea. Chimeras filled with platoon commanders with power fists and two command squads. Cc guard style
Automatically Appended Next Post: Not say it’s a good idea, not even saying it’s not the dumbest thing ever in the history of man. But it’d be hilarious
gendoikari87 wrote: Okay so stupid crazy idea. Chimeras filled with platoon commanders with power fists and two command squads. Cc guard style
Automatically Appended Next Post: Not say it’s a good idea, not even saying it’s not the dumbest thing ever in the history of man. But it’d be hilarious
If you think that's hilarious, why not try a gorgonful?
1980 points for supreme command with 1 gorgon and 3 company commanders with power fists, then 8 vanguard detachments each with 1 company commander and 4 Platoon commanders with power fists, and 1 stock priest.
Captain Roderick wrote: Sounds like you're on track then, I look forward to hearing your next battle report.
Can you use valkyrie instead of vendetta? It's less scary and can carry a full squad for objective grabbing.
Nope vendetta is hard glued without magnets(have only started practicing it but lack of drill makes it harder. Need to go to see dad to borrow his).
Don't care about scariness. Issue with vendetta is hitting on 5+! And vendetta carries 12 infantry as well so no difference there. Vendetta is just tank buster, valkyrie for infantry.
gendoikari87 wrote: Okay so stupid crazy idea. Chimeras filled with platoon commanders with power fists and two command squads. Cc guard style
Automatically Appended Next Post: Not say it’s a good idea, not even saying it’s not the dumbest thing ever in the history of man. But it’d be hilarious
Run the Platoon commanders as Catachans with powerfist and plasma pistol and they would be S8 Ld 8 BS 3+ WS 3+ 5++ close combat legends. All for 33 points each.... Is this sounding like a good idea to anyone else.... Hell run 3 of them with a bog standard Lord commissar for Ld 9 and a full Vanguard detachment. All for 154 points...
gendoikari87 wrote: Okay so stupid crazy idea. Chimeras filled with platoon commanders with power fists and two command squads. Cc guard style
Automatically Appended Next Post: Not say it’s a good idea, not even saying it’s not the dumbest thing ever in the history of man. But it’d be hilarious
Run the Platoon commanders as Catachans with powerfist and plasma pistol and they would be S8 Ld 8 BS 3+ WS 3+ 5++ close combat legends. All for 33 points each.... Is this sounding like a good idea to anyone else.... Hell run 3 of them with a bog standard Lord commissar for Ld 9 and a full Vanguard detachment. All for 154 points...
cream on top? Put them in a Valkyrie with a command squad for ablative wounds jump out and assault the enemy warlord turn 1 or 2 depending on how sure you want to be to get the charge
Anyone tried the Vulture since the new rules/points came out?
I'm curious because I need some anti-horde and thinking Hellhounds are too much of a one-hit wonder (followed by their own inevitable fiery deaths)
I've never put much stock in the LR Punisher even with the 40 shots, it's just too static to do a number on hordes, but the Vulture can get close to them without getting "tagged" and can still provide some decent bubble protection, forcing non-fly units to move around it.
Still annoyed they kept all the IG flyers in the Aeronautica Imperialis, what they can man their own superheavy tanks but can't be trusted with a couple of flying transports???
If I could take a Tallarn Vulture then my decision would be a lot easier :(
I've been eyeballing playing with AM rules using my R&H force, mostly because R&H is pretty boring right now, but also to use all the fun FW toys that AM can get.
I've had my eye on the Malcador Infernus, so much so that I bought 2 of them. I had a few questions about how they will work with AM.
First, why don't I hear more about this tank? It seems insanely good. 16" flamethrower with 2D6 shots. It's basically a superheavy in the heavy support slot (even has titanic explosion) It looks a bit expensive, but shouldn't ever have to worry about CC with the crazy overwatch. Has a 26" threat range, and with Catachan, you can re-roll one of those 2D6.
Chem ammo seems pretty lackluster, but the basic flame ammo is awesome. Toss 2 heavy flamers on it for kicks and giggles and burn a hole in the enemy's lines!
The reason you don't hear about the Malcador Infernus is it is essentially just a super tough Hellhound, which also has 2d6 shots and something like a 28" threat range, and can also be catachan.
The only difference is the Infernus is majorly tougher and has a teeeeeny tinnny bit better gun, and one more secondary gun. It's up to you whether that's worth more than twice the price of a hellhound.
Oh, also, hellhounds are Fast Attack, and don't compete with Leman Russes for slots - their only competition really is sentinels.
gendoikari87 wrote: Okay so stupid crazy idea. Chimeras filled with platoon commanders with power fists and two command squads. Cc guard style
Automatically Appended Next Post: Not say it’s a good idea, not even saying it’s not the dumbest thing ever in the history of man. But it’d be hilarious
Run the Platoon commanders as Catachans with powerfist and plasma pistol and they would be S8 Ld 8 BS 3+ WS 3+ 5++ close combat legends. All for 33 points each.... Is this sounding like a good idea to anyone else.... Hell run 3 of them with a bog standard Lord commissar for Ld 9 and a full Vanguard detachment. All for 154 points...
cream on top? Put them in a Valkyrie with a command squad for ablative wounds jump out and assault the enemy warlord turn 1 or 2 depending on how sure you want to be to get the charge
How would the command squad give ablative wounds? The fact they're characters would mean in cc at least your opponent would have to choose the distribution of attacks, hopefully either overkilling just one of them or not taking enough wounds off to kill whole models. I suppose you could throw an Ogryn Bodyguard but at 55 points it kind of removes their points efficiency. If they were sent in against cc specialists their 5++ could arguably be better than a 3+.
The reason you don't hear about the Malcador Infernus is it is essentially just a super tough Hellhound, which also has 2d6 shots and something like a 28" threat range, and can also be catachan.
The only difference is the Infernus is majorly tougher and has a teeeeeny tinnny bit better gun, and one more secondary gun. It's up to you whether that's worth more than twice the price of a hellhound.
Oh, also, hellhounds are Fast Attack, and don't compete with Leman Russes for slots - their only competition really is sentinels.
Or for 80 more points you could go Banehammer for the extra toughness and SH rules plus transport (and still not compete for slots). I think most guys either go for two Hellhounds or something bigger. Plus there are a lot of players who shy away from ordering FW for a variety of reasons, while the Hellhound and SH's are available at any FLGS.
gendoikari87 wrote: Okay so stupid crazy idea. Chimeras filled with platoon commanders with power fists and two command squads. Cc guard style
Automatically Appended Next Post: Not say it’s a good idea, not even saying it’s not the dumbest thing ever in the history of man. But it’d be hilarious
Run the Platoon commanders as Catachans with powerfist and plasma pistol and they would be S8 Ld 8 BS 3+ WS 3+ 5++ close combat legends. All for 33 points each.... Is this sounding like a good idea to anyone else.... Hell run 3 of them with a bog standard Lord commissar for Ld 9 and a full Vanguard detachment. All for 154 points...
cream on top? Put them in a Valkyrie with a command squad for ablative wounds jump out and assault the enemy warlord turn 1 or 2 depending on how sure you want to be to get the charge
A bit more expensive but you could put in crusaders for the ablative wounds instead as they can resurrect. Also excellent for eating overwatch!
I know this is the tactics thread, but didn't want to start an entire thread in the modeling section just for this:
Since I always put wheels on my Tauroxes, I have all these treads laying around. Anybody else ever consider putting 4 of them on a Chimera chassis? I think it could be a cool look to distinguish my upcoming Trojan build from other Chimera based vehicles in my army. Thoughts?
Since I always put wheels on my Tauroxes, I have all these treads laying around. Anybody else ever consider putting 4 of them on a Chimera chassis? I think it could be a cool look to distinguish my upcoming Trojan build from other Chimera based vehicles in my army. Thoughts?
They strike me as something that could be used for the forgeworld self-destructing bomb vehicle things. Assuming they're still worth taking. I can't think of what they're called.
Colonel Cross wrote: I know this is the tactics thread, but didn't want to start an entire thread in the modeling section just for this:
Since I always put wheels on my Tauroxes, I have all these treads laying around. Anybody else ever consider putting 4 of them on a Chimera chassis? I think it could be a cool look to distinguish my upcoming Trojan build from other Chimera based vehicles in my army. Thoughts?
I was planning on turning mine into either Rapier batteries or cyclops, hadn't really decided yet.
gendoikari87 wrote: It’s more so for crash padding and grav chutes insert rolls
You go into hover mode and move 19.999~ inches then get out, no need to roll on grav insert table.
I have been doing this with straken for months but I wouldn't get carried away with the characters, it's all fun and dandy until you face someone like orks, pile everyone in, finish swinging with ONE dude then they pop two command points and start shredding the guys that haven't swung yet. The list needs normal guys and bodyguards to mitigate things like this. That said, it is loads of fun and does work well. Not sure I would recommend buying 45 power fist commanders though lol.
Colonel Cross wrote: I know this is the tactics thread, but didn't want to start an entire thread in the modeling section just for this:
Since I always put wheels on my Tauroxes, I have all these treads laying around. Anybody else ever consider putting 4 of them on a Chimera chassis? I think it could be a cool look to distinguish my upcoming Trojan build from other Chimera based vehicles in my army. Thoughts?
I was planning on turning mine into either Rapier batteries or cyclops, hadn't really decided yet.
You can use them for a ot of things, I was going to make rapiers and cyclops but found the Kataphron tracks on ebay which look much nicer. I don'e think it would work as tracks on a chimera however since they are not tall enough to fill in the voids on the hull. I mean you could do a lot of card stock building but it would look funny in the end. I actually did the opposite and put chimera tracks on two of my taurox. Not my pic:
Any thoughts for countering the armour of other guard players? The only two tourney games I've lost with my foot guard in 8th ed were against bubble-wrapped leman Russ lists. I'm currently thinking a fair few lascannon toting cadian squads backed up with a mass elysian/Scion plasma drop on turn 2 once I've removed most of the chaff. Psykers used to be my main counter to hard targets like this so I'm in need of a bit of a rethink...
DoomMouse wrote: Any thoughts for countering the armour of other guard players? The only two tourney games I've lost with my foot guard in 8th ed were against bubble-wrapped leman Russ lists. I'm currently thinking a fair few lascannon toting cadian squads backed up with a mass elysian/Scion plasma drop on turn 2 once I've removed most of the chaff. Psykers used to be my main counter to hard targets like this so I'm in need of a bit of a rethink...
How many Russes and how much bubble wrap? Getting rid of the chaff can fall anywhere from kinds hard to effing impossible in one round depending on what guns you're rocking. Same goes for 6-9 Russ chassis tanks. Lascannons are key for the Russes, but you need to be able to clear to chaff in order to get the DS plasma dudes in range on the drop, so I'd maybe start with answering the question "what do I need to ace X number of guardsmen turn one?". Where X is enough kills to open up maybe two or three solid drop zones for plasma.
The basic lascannon still does admirable work. With the price hikes to their weapons, I've stopped running scions at all, although if you're all foot, you'll probably still want them.
The builds I've been loving are Cadian Spearheads, with one or two CCs, and six heavy weapon squads, each with one lascannon and two mortars or heavy bolters. 48-54 points for a lascannon with re-rolls, plus the mortars do nice work, especially on ITC boards with lots of LOS blocking terrain.
So, speaking of Russes, I was wondering what you gents were running for 8th on your Russ chassis. Guard is going to be a new army for me, and I'm still waffling over the details of what kind of force I want. Right now I'm leaning toward an armor-heavy build with probably 6+ Russes, Maybe this would be easier if it were itemized...
1. What builds do you have success with on tank commanders, Pask or otherwise?
2. What's your go-to turret weapon?
3. Sponsons or no sponsons?
4. What regiment do you favor for your Armored Company?
My current rough cut list is as follows, of that helps:
2 x Tank Commander (probably in Punishers) w Lascannon hull mounts
5-6 Leman Russes (fill in for the list is Battle Cannon/Lascannon and no sponsons)
1-2 Salamander Scout Tanks
2-4 Scout Sentinels (AC maybe)
30-80 Infantry of some sort (versions range from Elysians to Valhallan Conscripts, so who knows).
I'm not looking for help with the list specifically, more general tactics and builds for the Russ as part of an armored list.
Fenris-77 wrote: So, speaking of Russes, I was wondering what you gents were running for 8th on your Russ chassis. Guard is going to be a new army for me, and I'm still waffling over the details of what kind of force I want. Right now I'm leaning toward an armor-heavy build with probably 6+ Russes, Maybe this would be easier if it were itemized...
1. What builds do you have success with on tank commanders, Pask or otherwise?
2. What's your go-to turret weapon?
3. Sponsons or no sponsons?
4. What regiment do you favor for your Armored Company?
My current rough cut list is as follows, of that helps:
2 x Tank Commander (probably in Punishers) w Lascannon hull mounts
5-6 Leman Russes (fill in for the list is Battle Cannon/Lascannon and no sponsons)
1-2 Salamander Scout Tanks
2-4 Scout Sentinels (AC maybe)
30-80 Infantry of some sort (versions range from Elysians to Valhallan Conscripts, so who knows).
I'm not looking for help with the list specifically, more general tactics and builds for the Russ as part of an armored list.
1) don’t really like commanders. Too many points, abilities can be found elsewhere and the get focused down
2) Conqueror battle cannons are my go-to, basically they replace the tank commander entirely. I run 6 at 2K pts
3) for conquerors no sponsons, gotta keep moving and shooting.
4) I play Catachans for my Russes.
Fenris-77 wrote: So, speaking of Russes, I was wondering what you gents were running for 8th on your Russ chassis. Guard is going to be a new army for me, and I'm still waffling over the details of what kind of force I want. Right now I'm leaning toward an armor-heavy build with probably 6+ Russes, Maybe this would be easier if it were itemized...
1. What builds do you have success with on tank commanders, Pask or otherwise?
2. What's your go-to turret weapon?
3. Sponsons or no sponsons?
4. What regiment do you favor for your Armored Company?
My current rough cut list is as follows, of that helps:
2 x Tank Commander (probably in Punishers) w Lascannon hull mounts
5-6 Leman Russes (fill in for the list is Battle Cannon/Lascannon and no sponsons)
1-2 Salamander Scout Tanks
2-4 Scout Sentinels (AC maybe)
30-80 Infantry of some sort (versions range from Elysians to Valhallan Conscripts, so who knows).
I'm not looking for help with the list specifically, more general tactics and builds for the Russ as part of an armored list.
Currently running either BC and lascannon or PGC and Lascannon. keeping them cheap without sponsons because of the models i'm using....
1) don’t really like commanders. Too many points, abilities can be found elsewhere and the get focused down
2) Conqueror battle cannons are my go-to, basically they replace the tank commander entirely. I run 6 at 2K pts
3) for conquerors no sponsons, gotta keep moving and shooting.
4) I play Catachans for my Russes.
What regement are you thinking for your list?
Yikes, yeah the Conqueror is awesome. I don't know how I missed that. Pardon me while I adjust my list...
My current use for the Commander is to have them shooting the PGCs. The 3+ helps out there a lot, and having a couple of Lascannons hitting on a 3+ isn't awful either. Having some tank orders looks like fun too, and they do fill HQ slots.
No sponsons is how I'm looking at the Russes in general so far, for the reason you mention, and also overall points. Right now I'm looking at hull Lascannons across the board to up the lists anti-tank.
Catachan is so you can re-roll the BCD6 right? I thought about that, and it seems good for the BC chassis. Cadian might be better for the PGCs, but I really don't want to play a gunline every game either - aggressive armor is what I want to play. I was thinking about some Tallarn mixed in for outflanking shenanigans, although I don't know about having a whole squad of Russes off table for the first turn or two. The WWII historian in me would also love to play an armour and conscripts Valhallan list.
@gendoikari87 - my Russes are currently exactly the same as yours.
1) don’t really like commanders. Too many points, abilities can be found elsewhere and the get focused down
2) Conqueror battle cannons are my go-to, basically they replace the tank commander entirely. I run 6 at 2K pts
3) for conquerors no sponsons, gotta keep moving and shooting.
4) I play Catachans for my Russes.
What regement are you thinking for your list?
Yikes, yeah the Conqueror is awesome. I don't know how I missed that. Pardon me while I adjust my list...
My current use for the Commander is to have them shooting the PGCs. The 3+ helps out there a lot, and having a couple of Lascannons hitting on a 3+ isn't awful either. Having some tank orders looks like fun too, and they do fill HQ slots.
No sponsons is how I'm looking at the Russes in general so far, for the reason you mention, and also overall points. Right now I'm looking at hull Lascannons across the board to up the lists anti-tank.
Catachan is so you can re-roll the BCD6 right? I thought about that, and it seems good for the BC chassis. Cadian might be better for the PGCs, but I really don't want to play a gunline every game either - aggressive armor is what I want to play. I was thinking about some Tallarn mixed in for outflanking shenanigans, although I don't know about having a whole squad of Russes off table for the first turn or two. The WWII historian in me would also love to play an armour and conscripts Valhallan list.
@gendoikari87 - my Russes are currently exactly the same as yours.
Punishers are pretty meh so far, even 40 shots is just ho-hum considering you're almost never wounding on better than 3's and there's no save modifier so even other guard will turn away about 1/3 of the shots. I want to like them so I'm running a vulture to get the same kinda thing going but I think the LR punisher just suffers from the short range.
I think all your other choices really come down to your doctrine. I run Catachan because you're actually re-rolling BOTH dice for the number of shots, each D6 is a separate instance of shooting even though they have to be at the same target. On a Conqueror with no sponsons you're driving all over the board 4.9" per turn and still dishing out an average 10 shots with re-rolls to hit anything in 24" great anti-horde and anti-armor.
Cadian is fantastic for Executioners or any non-random shot turrets, but if you take it you're limiting yourself to remaining stationary to take advantage of the rule. At the same time they make sponsons way more appealing for the same reason.
I'm running Tallarn for my I really want to try out Tallarn for my Russes since they just get so many shenanigans and 8th edition is basically won or lost in the movement phase, plus you can use your sponsons on the move.
Valhallan is really powerful, if you want to run hordes of infantry that stick around, and tanks that are still combat-effective down to the last few wounds then they're really worth considering.
Punishers are pretty meh so far, even 40 shots is just ho-hum considering you're almost never wounding on better than 3's and there's no save modifier so even other guard will turn away about 1/3 of the shots.
I think it really comes down to what role they are playing in your list and what army you are likely to be facing. If you are running a TC with a Punisher as a bit of anti-horde insurance it can be pretty helpful. If the only infantry you are coming up against is MEQ, well then you are correct, it might not be worth it. Basically at 24"...the range at which a Conq gets its reroll...the Conq performs very slightly better against MEQ, but in reality it is nearly identical. However a Conq is clearly better against multi-wound models and other vehicles. This makes it more versatile and in some ways more reliable. However if you are coming up against units with a size larger than 10 (think Gaunts, Boyz, etc) then the Punisher becomes much more attractive, nearly doubling the models it can be expected to kill per round of shooting VS the Conq...with the upward possibility of casualties being VERY much higher indeed.
So if you have other models which are doing your anti-armor, anti-vehicle shooting even a single TC Punisher can be a decent take if you expect to need to thin massed infantry. If you expect to only see MSU of tougher infantry, you are probably correct the Conq feels like an overall better choice.
What I was looking at was probably 5 Conquerors and 2 TC Punishers, all with hull LCs. The Punishers were very much in the mix as anti-horde insurance as part of a TAC build.
Maybe 1 Punisher would be enough? I want to able to weather those massive Ork and Nid lists and have enough Dakka and bubble wrap not to get immediately overwhelmed. I am planning to take maybe three HW Mortar teams (15 mortars) to help thin hordes as well.
For AT I'd have something like 5 CBCs, 9 LCs and some ACs.
Fenris-77 wrote: What I was looking at was probably 5 Conquerors and 2 TC Punishers, all with hull LCs. The Punishers were very much in the mix as anti-horde insurance as part of a TAC build.
Maybe 1 Punisher would be enough? I want to able to weather those massive Ork and Nid lists and have enough Dakka and bubble wrap not to get immediately overwhelmed. I am planning to take maybe three HW Mortar teams (15 mortars) to help thin hordes as well.
For AT I'd have something like 5 CBCs, 9 LCs and some ACs.
i mean it's a punisher, it's a gatling gun. ask yourself if you can take the hit to your cool points by removing a gatling gun.
i mean it's a punisher, it's a gatling gun. ask yourself if you can take the hit to your cool points by removing a gatling gun.
That's a more important point than some people think. I'm not building this list to go to Adepticon (I've been, and this list isn't close to optimized enough). This is supposed to be a competitive TAC list that I'm still going to have fun painting and playing. Maybe good enough to win some local RT type tournaments, or place decently at a mid-sized event. I'll worry about complete optimization if and when I get the chance to hit one of the bigger events next. Cool factor is still important.
Cool factor is the reason I'll be shelling out for the Cadian hostile environment FW infantry upgrades. 'Cause they're cool AF. Same with converting snipers to stand in for Ratlings. Snipers are cool. If I'm not going to have fun putting the army together what's the point?
For less than 5 points it's effing fantastic, close or no. Plus it's an extra SB, which by itself isn't awful. Throw on the pintle mount an you're dropping an extra 8 dice a turn if you're in close. Good for cleaning out random gribblies that might be planning a shot-preventing charge. I'd agree that you don't want to be in close with Russes, but sometimes there's no help for it, especially not if you;re being aggressive with your armour and not playing a parking lot.
Combined with the Catachan re-roll on all the BCD6's and it's dropping a ton of hurt within that 24".
I am planning on picking up my SW in a few months. I wanne add some IG allies for ranged support.
I was thinking lascannons. My old SW 5th editiion used rocket long fangs and MM/flamers landspeeders for 'ranged support'. I was thinking addiong some lascannon heavy weapon teams could be good, But 3 units of 3 lascannons is perhaps a bit boring. Are there any fun IG ranged suport I should be looking into?
Fenris-77 wrote: HW Teams are easy to hose down, so spending the points on Lascannons might not be ideal. The Mortar team is indeed the current hot buy there.
The Leman Russ Annihilator has Lascannons for days and is even a fluffy choice.for SW since it used ti be in the codex.
I like two mortars and a lascannon in each HWS, this gives each lascannon some ablative wounds, which still hurt and are cost effective.
And the Space Wolves had the Exterminator in the 3rd edition codex. I think the Annihilator has always been FW.
You guys mix up heavy weapon squads? Doesn't that mess up target priority for the squad? Like why would you shoot mortars as something you want to shoot a lascannon at? wouldnt more lascannons be better?
Heafstaag wrote: You guys mix up heavy weapon squads? Doesn't that mess up target priority for the squad? Like why would you shoot mortars as something you want to shoot a lascannon at? wouldnt more lascannons be better?
In 8th edition you can split fire, meaning you can fire the mortars at enemy infantry and the lascannon at an enemy tank with no issues.
Heafstaag wrote: You guys mix up heavy weapon squads? Doesn't that mess up target priority for the squad? Like why would you shoot mortars as something you want to shoot a lascannon at? wouldnt more lascannons be better?
In 8th edition you can split fire, meaning you can fire the mortars at enemy infantry and the lascannon at an enemy tank with no issues.
Latest regimental standard, is this a tacit admittal that they over nerfed commisars?
Attention, Guardsman!
It has come to the attention of Imperial High Command that morale in your sector is dangerously low this Candlemass season, possibly due to the mysterious accidental deaths of all your Regimental Commissars. Our Tech-Adepts are hard at work fixing the “sudden involuntary discharge” issue many claim to have with your lasguns, while for the issue of your morale we have recruited His Revered Holiness Rudolph Crispin, a renowned preacher of the Adeptus Ministorum, to share a special festive story with you all
Heafstaag wrote: You guys mix up heavy weapon squads? Doesn't that mess up target priority for the squad? Like why would you shoot mortars as something you want to shoot a lascannon at? wouldnt more lascannons be better?
In 8th edition you can split fire, meaning you can fire the mortars at enemy infantry and the lascannon at an enemy tank with no issues.
Well damn. That's crazy.
Welcome to 8th edition Where the boxcars all are empty, And the sun shines every day, And the birds and the bees, And the cigarette trees, The, lemonade springs, Where the bluebird sings, In games workshops 8th edition
In games workshops 8th edition,
All the cops have wooden legs
And the bulldogs all have rubber teeth
And the hens lay soft-boiled eggs
The farmers' trees are full of fruit
And the barns are full of hay
Oh I'm bound to go
Where there ain't no snow
Where the rain don't fall
The winds don't blow
In games workshops 8th edition
I don't know what the consensus (if any) is in this thread, or what the experience of others is, but I came to the conclusion that I want to take all my shooting in the form of super-heavies, and spend the rest of the points in assault units.
Assault is inevitable vs many different builds, and pure shooting armies tend to lose against a variety of alpha super infiltrates that tie up everything. Even more so after chapter approved.
What I run is two Shadowswords and a Banehammer for getting the deployment drops to six or seven, and alternatively one Shadowsword and one Banehammer, for five or six deployment drops. I support them with a bunch of Eversors, a Culexus, Bullgryns, and only mandatory infantry squads. Mortar teams naturally shoot from the Banehammer. Celestine still appears in lists too, as does Pask, but no other Leman Russ variants. Pask because he's so much better, and one Russ can be protected somewhat. Super-heavies are simply so much better because they can't be prevented from shooting, and they're great bang for the buck from whatever angle you look at them. Likewise, Eversors and Bullgryns are very points efficient on their own, so while they protect the other stuff, they'll still great in a vacuum as well.
I just dropped in to give my 2 cents, since I'm curious sometimes how other Astra players are coping with this Eldar dominated meta that has some 'I assault you with 100 models on the first turn' armies sprinkled in.
I have been tinkering with a list consisting of 1x Shadowsword, 1x Macharius Vulcan, and 1x Baneblade chassis (whatever you want). I can then fit in 60 conscripts, 2 commanders, 3 psykers, a tech priest, a trojan, and a basilisk.
This nets you 9 command points!
Obviously I'd recommend going Valhallan since the superheavies AND conscripts can both significantly benefit. Rocking that Pietrov's Mk 45 pistol with all those conscripts!
WatcherZero wrote: Latest regimental standard, is this a tacit admittal that they over nerfed commisars?
Attention, Guardsman!
It has come to the attention of Imperial High Command that morale in your sector is dangerously low this Candlemass season, possibly due to the mysterious accidental deaths of all your Regimental Commissars. Our Tech-Adepts are hard at work fixing the “sudden involuntary discharge” issue many claim to have with your lasguns, while for the issue of your morale we have recruited His Revered Holiness Rudolph Crispin, a renowned preacher of the Adeptus Ministorum, to share a special festive story with you all
It could be - they're pretty savvy these days. At the same time, it's not uncommon for the regimental standard to open with an "inconvenience" as the reason for the article, and fragged commissars leading to a priest telling a festive story is pretty logical, and could fit anytime in any edition.
We'll never know!
WatcherZero wrote: Latest regimental standard, is this a tacit admittal that they over nerfed commisars?
Attention, Guardsman!
It has come to the attention of Imperial High Command that morale in your sector is dangerously low this Candlemass season, possibly due to the mysterious accidental deaths of all your Regimental Commissars. Our Tech-Adepts are hard at work fixing the “sudden involuntary discharge” issue many claim to have with your lasguns, while for the issue of your morale we have recruited His Revered Holiness Rudolph Crispin, a renowned preacher of the Adeptus Ministorum, to share a special festive story with you all
HaHa. I wasn't the only one who had the feels over that comment. Especially since I did swap both my commissars for priests.
>HQ, 4 power level. Catachan, Astra, Imperium, Sly Marbo.
>Str 3, t 3, 5+ armor. 2 for ws and bs, 4 wounds, cannot take Warlord Trait or take orders.
>3 shot pistol that always wounds Infantry on a 2, no ap.
>4 attacks, Knife always wounds on a 2 against infantry.
>You can set him up for deep strike, and when he comes in, pick 1 of 3 options:
>Shoot a unit, ignoring the Character rule until the next turn, rule calls out he specifically shoots when he arrives, and can then shoot again during the actual shooting phase.
>Stalk with Knife, roll a d6 and move that many inches, and gain +2 attacks until the start of the next movement phase.
>Concealed explosives, pick a unit, roll a d6, add 1 if unit has more than 10 models, -1 if it is a character. On 4+ d3 mortal wounds, 7+ d6 mortal wounds.
>Fighting a Shadow: 1 / battle, at the beginning of your movement phase, if no enemy within 6 inches, Marbo goes back into deep strike, and can be redeployed the next turn. Procing his "show up" ability again.
>Gains 2+ to his armor save rather than 1+ when Marbo is in cover
If there is no AP modifier on his knife then he will be hot garbage. What is the point of an assassin if he can't even take out a GE character? Haha I think I'll stick with my Eversor and rough riders if that is the case. Sad because his rules seem very fun, just not very effective.
Well, he did have a demo charge back then, and for many people that was the main reason to field him at all. He made TEQs that arrived via deepstrike crap their pants.
If I want a harassing unit, no, a guy, I'll just field an Eversor Assassin.
Most people don't ignore this skull-guy near their back ranks. And when they do go after him, it's already too late. I counted on them to divide their attention to this one front that has no real importance to me. There lies only the promise of an unlikely Eversor-rampage to me. If I get that, hey, bonus. If I don't, I've already played them like a bowed string musical instrument.
Heck, most of the time that skull guy doesn't even need to kill people to pull his weight.
To be fair marbo wasn't super competitive back in the day either. His main use was mind games and messing with people behind the lines. He was a 65pt distraction that the opponent had to deal with or he would just start charging everything in sight.
MrMoustaffa wrote: To be fair marbo wasn't super competitive back in the day either. His main use was mind games and messing with people behind the lines. He was a 65pt distraction that the opponent had to deal with or he would just start charging everything in sight.
I'd argue that he was a very competitive choice in fifth. By sixth, units with interceptor limited his utility sharply.
But an accurate demo charge, followed by a melta bomb, made him a hyper efficient choice, especially in single force org chart games, where as an elite he didn't compete with anything good.
He was rarely game changing, but he punched above his weight.
Well he's susceptible to just dying in melee to even a shooty unit. At least the Eversor has 6W a 4++ and rolls 3d6 to charge me (although that's only marginally superior to a d6 move + then 2d6 to charge.
MrMoustaffa wrote: To be fair marbo wasn't super competitive back in the day either. His main use was mind games and messing with people behind the lines. He was a 65pt distraction that the opponent had to deal with or he would just start charging everything in sight.
I'd argue that he was a very competitive choice in fifth. By sixth, units with interceptor limited his utility sharply.
But an accurate demo charge, followed by a melta bomb, made him a hyper efficient choice, especially in single force org chart games, where as an elite he didn't compete with anything good.
He was rarely game changing, but he punched above his weight.
Maybe it was just our area, but we found he had a nasty habit of hitting himself with his own demo charge
I agree he hit above his weight, but often in 5th you found the points going toward him got you another chimera, or halfway to another manticore/Medusa/vendetta, units that were likely to do far more damage overtime and definitely live longer. I ran infantry of course so he was a natural fit, but if we want to talk true competitive, marbo didn't mesh as well with the top power list of leaf blower.
You have to remember we had stupidly efficient units in 5th edition and with something like a vendetta only costing something like a 125pts if I remember correctly you could make a strong argument that marbo still hurt your list because he wasn't AV12.
We also didn't have things like linebreaker and slay the warlord, so a lot of marbo's utility didn't really come into effect for missions. This was back when only troops could hold objectives after all.
I think marbo will have utility this edition, especially for catachan lists, but after reading the eversor rules I get why people would prefer one over Marbo. Marbo's big utility is going to lie in his special rules, which I've not got a great look at. Depending on how his special rules interact, especially his hopping back into deepstrike he ability, he could be very handy. At the bare minimum, he will continue to excel at popping up where people don't want him and raising hell. I'd also be very surprised if his pistol doesn't have some sort of rend ability. It had sniper in the past which let him ignore armor on a 6 to wound.
Personally, I see his big utility being dropping in with Stormtroopers. If I'm reading his knife ability right, he'd be able to potentially tie up a deadly unit should your stormtrooper drop fail to kill it. In addition, if he survives, you pop his ability to slip back into the shadows and either get a guaranteed linebreaker point, send him to deal with a breakthrough, or just hunt down another target.
So 4 PL, that translates to around 75 points? Same as Strakken?
Seems like it would make sense to give the Dagger relic to a PL and bring along a squad of Catachan guardsmen to help Marbo out. That might turn an annoyance into a credible distraction, although certainly not much of a threat. Index Rough Riders would be another good option.
If you're fighting other IG the lack of AP probably isn't that big of a deal I suppose.
edit: He would also work well against Orks I think. Some Tryranids too.
Well also remember that he is only wounding "infantry" on 2+ and whenever GW limits things like that we always get screwed. Like getting to reroll damage against vehicles and monsters and then you have Primarchs, demon princes, battle suits, etc running around immune to bonuses against them.
Anyone been running an ogryn bodyguard with the death mask relic for a 2++ invuln? Seems like he could be a good anvil unit in my foot horde to advance with the main infantry wave and tie up tanks / enemy threats. Even dedicated CC units will often struggle against his high toughness and 2++. Mortal wounds are all he needs to fear
DoomMouse wrote: Anyone been running an ogryn bodyguard with the death mask relic for a 2++ invuln? Seems like he could be a good anvil unit in my foot horde to advance with the main infantry wave and tie up tanks / enemy threats. Even dedicated CC units will often struggle against his high toughness and 2++. Mortal wounds are all he needs to fear
I'm planning on it when my slow-moving escalation campaign has enough points to spare for him in a centaur. Lob him up table to tie things up...
PL does not always indicate points well. If Marbo isn't overly expensive then I think he is solid. Dropping him in and shooting a character 6 times is useful. He won't kill a powerful character but he will drop support characters. Also don't underestimate that d3 mortal wounds on something critical. Or stalk with knife giving him 6 base attacks and effectively a 3d6 charge. I think he will work well taking out small units in peoples backfields or objective camper units. Don't forget he also can jump back into hiding to grab another objective later. My big concern is how that special rule is worded. Because if he needs to be on the table by turn 3 then you basically can only ever return him to hiding on turn 2 any later will auto kill him.
Catachan rules don't give him anything useful. +1 strength doesn't matter because he's wounding infantry on 2+s, and S4 to S5 (Edit: forgot about the blade +1) only matters for attacking T4/T5/T8/T9 non-infantry (which he has no reason to attack). Ld bonus doesn't matter for a single character either.
Honestly without an Invul save or a way to move after fighting, I don't see how to get him back into reserves on the top of your turn 2.
Commissar_Rex wrote: Catachan rules don't give him anything useful. +1 strength doesn't matter because he's wounding infantry on 2+s, and S4 to S5 (Edit: forgot about the blade +1) only matters for attacking T4/T5/T8/T9 non-infantry (which he has no reason to attack). Ld bonus doesn't matter for a single character either.
Honestly without an Invul save or a way to move after fighting, I don't see how to get him back into reserves on the top of your turn 2.
Well then your expecting too much from him. He is useful for killing and wiping that 10 man cultist unit in a back field or for taking out those annoying mortar teams. Also don't forget he can easily tie down something like an artillery tank or a predator. I know the next response is something about bubble wrap, but bubble wrapping againsty a single model is actually annoying AF. Especially when he costs so little and forces you to use 5 time his cost to block him out from every angle. Don't forget he doesn't have to come in on their back line immediately. He can easily appear midfield or in your own deployment in order to set off some mortal wounds to finish off that annoying flier or Altaioc tank then rehide. 2d3 mortal wounds is actually very useful. I bet he is in every guard list just to do that very thing.
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Commissar_Rex wrote: Catachan rules don't give him anything useful. +1 strength doesn't matter because he's wounding infantry on 2+s, and S4 to S5 (Edit: forgot about the blade +1) only matters for attacking T4/T5/T8/T9 non-infantry (which he has no reason to attack). Ld bonus doesn't matter for a single character either.
Honestly without an Invul save or a way to move after fighting, I don't see how to get him back into reserves on the top of your turn 2.
Catachan is useful, it lets me fulfill a slot without losing my doctrine elsewhere.
Well to be fair, most people are bubble wrapping against IG to begin with. Even with weapon costs going up, Stormtroopers are still nasty and most people run them.
Also, the mortal wounds are not guaranteed, they hinge on a 3-5+ roll to go off depending on the target. The sweet spot appears to be vehicles and elite, hard to kill infantry. Any unit giving him a plus one to hit with the mortal wounds is probably a unit of cheap infantry you don't need mortal wounds to kill, and I wouldn't trust a 5+ to hit a character for a measly d3 mortal wounds unless they're really hurting and I know that could kill them. I think his pistol and knife abilities will be more useful usually, since they're much more reliable in going off.
EDIT: Just got a look at his rules, the mortal wounds ability can target anything on the table, so that makes it a bit more useful. Still a bit of a hail Mary but not as limited as I thought. Im sure there will be times where that may be your only option to finish an enemy character off such as an elder pyskers or an IG officer but I doubt it'll be used more than once or twice every 10 games.
Quick question, has anyone tried running Skitarii Vanguard as a screen in a Valhallan list? The interaction between Rad Saturation and Fire on My Command! seems like it has some real potential. I don't know how well it would work in practice though.
Marbo is an hq that is useful in itself since he doesn’t benefit from the catachan ability. I’ll be taking him in an imperium detachment with three eversors and a vindicare.... maybe four eversors depending on what I can squeeze in 500 points
Has anyone tried our crusaders? One of the few options for melee outside of ogryns and rough riders. 3 units of 10 ambushing with Tallarn and maybe using the other ambush artifact to bring an extra unit + character?
Fenris-77 wrote: They don't have the <regiment> keyword, can they ambush?
Ooh good point - does that mean they can't ride in AM transports either?
I've seen them used to good effect in video batreps, 1 unit of 3-5 alongside a medium or large unit of bullgryn. They're not amazing at killing things but they are amazing at tying enemy cc units up with their invulnerable save and 2+ to recover a casualty every turn. It's best to only have one unit, not too large, so that you're getting the biggest impact from your acts of faith for the points you spend. They won't win you the battle but they're an excellent speed bump!
Check out Guerilla miniature games on YouTube (posted here by achilles) for a couple of examples.
I've seen them used to good effect in video batreps, 1 unit of 3-5 alongside a medium or large unit of bullgryn. They're not amazing at killing things but they are amazing at tying enemy cc units up with their invulnerable save and 2+ to recover a casualty every turn. It's best to only have one unit, not too large, so that you're getting the biggest impact from your acts of faith for the points you spend. They won't win you the battle but they're an excellent speed bump!
I've actually stuck 8 of them into a list I'm looking to test soon, in place of 3 bullgryn (they hang out with celestine). Based on a quick spreadsheet, they're actually pretty nasty in melee due to anything wounding anything in 8th and -3 AP. Larger groups of them are actually better value than small ones, because the act of faith applies on a per unit basis. That means their value goes up quickly as you add more to the group. More wounds to get through before the squad is wiped, more units fighting twice, etc. Maybe I'm going to be disappointed, but they look pretty solid to me
Ah - I've not seen them fighting twice much, mainly regenerating to keep the speedbump in place after moving twice to get to cc.
I suppose if a big enough squad survives the 1-2 rounds it takes to get to fighting twice you might consider that instead, but with str/t 3 you're going to be taking a lot of saves, and against meq your 2 attacks per model won't actually get you that far (it seems).
Fancy reporting back when you've tested them?
I can see getting good use out of one unit, small or large. Acts of Faith mitigate pretty hard for just the one though, I agree. As well, they are a keen opportunity for fancy conversions, also a strong selling point for me.
I would also be interested in hearing back about how they work our for people.
High up on my list of things to get too. I'm totally keen on throwing a squad of 10 along with a Priest and Iniquisitor into a Chimera, and raising hell with it. Don't know if it's the most 'points efficient,' don't care - it'll just out-cool your opponent to death.
But yeah they would benefit more from being Catachan.
