I've used loads of psykers but I just spam smite haha. The inquisitor power where you get to shoot a characters weapon can be very powerful. I used to like using +1 armour save for 50 man conscript blobs but now they're 30 and their leadership is crap it seems a bit meh
vipoid wrote: All my IG armies thus far have included no psykers whatsoever. However, that's about to change drastically, so I'm looking for a bit of advice regarding our psychic powers.
For reference, my army is likely to include:
1-3 Primaris Psykers
3 Astropaths
3 Inquisitors
Anyway, my main questions are:
1) How do you rate our psychic powers?
2) Are there some powers that it's better for an Astropath to know (as opposed to a Primaris Psyker), or vice versa?
3) With multiple Psykers, is it better to have an even selection of powers, or should I lean towards redundancy with the 'good' powers?
4) Lastly, does anyone know whether the IG Mental Fortitude counts as the same power as the Inquisition Mental Fortitude? I ask because you can only cast each power once per turn. However, in this case, the powers have the same name but different wording (one affects any Imperium unit, the other only affects IG units), does that matter?
Most of the AM Psyker powers are crap. I'd hate to say it, but Smite is so good that there isnt a good reason to take the other offensive ones. Doing a minus to leadership is also kind of shaky since its a chance of killing a model instead of killing one outright. The two supports powers on the other hand are great. I generally bring psykers for their ability to deny the witch, but being able to help infantry saves or cinch or morale test is worth it in the right situation. The rest of the time smite, smite, smite.
According to the chaos FAQ, spells with the same title count as the same instance. It hasn't been offically ruled for Mental Fortitude, but I'd expect a TO to refer to that ruling when making the call
Just picked up an Enginseer from my FLGS and want to pose this mini Tallarn ambush build to you all. Tell me if its garbage or not. My plan kind of hinges on Tank Commanders being able to order themselves, as I only have one Leman Russ and really want to play a Tallarn-style regiment..
Leman Russ Tank Commander w/ Battle Cannon, Lascannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsons, heavy stubber & ambushing with two Infantry squads with plasma/flamer/grenade launcher.
Tech priest with Dagger relic accompanied by 4 Servitors, 2 w/ Plasma Cannons.
Tactics depend on map/game but in my head these all deploy en masse on one flank and/or enemy deployment zone. Techpriest heals the tank while the rest support, grab objectives, i.e: force the opponent to make choices. Also keeps them off the table for 1st turn alpha strikes.
Possible Commissar tank stratagem on the Leman Russ to give LD boost to all the infantry.
vipoid wrote: All my IG armies thus far have included no psykers whatsoever. However, that's about to change drastically, so I'm looking for a bit of advice regarding our psychic powers.
For reference, my army is likely to include:
1-3 Primaris Psykers
3 Astropaths
3 Inquisitors
Anyway, my main questions are:
1) How do you rate our psychic powers?
2) Are there some powers that it's better for an Astropath to know (as opposed to a Primaris Psyker), or vice versa?
3) With multiple Psykers, is it better to have an even selection of powers, or should I lean towards redundancy with the 'good' powers?
4) Lastly, does anyone know whether the IG Mental Fortitude counts as the same power as the Inquisition Mental Fortitude? I ask because you can only cast each power once per turn. However, in this case, the powers have the same name but different wording (one affects any Imperium unit, the other only affects IG units), does that matter?
1) Pretty good. Gaze of the Emperor is kinda weak, but Nightshroud, Psychic Barrier, Maelstrom, and the morale booster are all useful.
2) I would give the Astropath a dedicated buff such as Barrier/Nightshroud/Morale. Maelstrom could be interesting as a way of getting around his weak Smite though if you feel like being more aggressive with them.
3) Definitely prefer redundancy on Night Shroud/Barrier. Not just in case a Psyker dies, but in case all of his intended buff targets in range die. You might have a turn where your earthshaker doesnt need barrier or night shroud but your conscripts at the front do. Take a couple of the more situational ones as backup if you have space for them.
4) I would say they are different by virtue of coming from different disciplines and the different target key words, but I can definitely see the counter argument. I'd play it conservatively and treat them as the same until it gets FAQ'd
vipoid wrote: What do you guys take in the way of sponsons and such?
Depends entirely on regiment, role, and personal preference.
Cadian Russes want to sit still anyway, so heavy bolters or even plasma cannons seem like good buys.
Tallarn Russes can move and shoot without penalty, so pretty much anything works.
Catachan Russes can re-roll shots on heavy flamers and plasma cannons.
Vostroyan Russes get +6" range on everything, making multi-meltas seem pretty functional. Tallarn probably does them better, though.
Beyond that it's mostly personal preference. Do you want your Russes to be immobile turrets, or are you playing Tallarn? Throw in some sponsons. If you value mobility or like the shorter-range turrets, probably skip them, and consider a hull heavy flamer.
Twoshoes23 wrote: Just picked up an Enginseer from my FLGS and want to pose this mini Tallarn ambush build to you all. Tell me if its garbage or not. My plan kind of hinges on Tank Commanders being able to order themselves, as I only have one Leman Russ and really want to play a Tallarn-style regiment..
Leman Russ Tank Commander w/ Battle Cannon, Lascannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsons, heavy stubber & ambushing with two Infantry squads with plasma/flamer/grenade launcher.
Tech priest with Dagger relic accompanied by 4 Servitors, 2 w/ Plasma Cannons.
Tactics depend on map/game but in my head these all deploy en masse on one flank and/or enemy deployment zone. Techpriest heals the tank while the rest support, grab objectives, i.e: force the opponent to make choices. Also keeps them off the table for 1st turn alpha strikes.
Possible Commissar tank stratagem on the Leman Russ to give LD boost to all the infantry.
Unfortunately, they FAQ'd the dagger so it can only be taken by Infantry Officers.
Razerous wrote: I've got a question about the conqueror - to target a weapon at a unit, does it need to be in range first?
You cannot target something out of range:
In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit must be within the Range of the weapon being used (as listed on its profile) and be visible to the shooting model.
Razerous wrote: I've got a question about the conqueror - to target a weapon at a unit, does it need to be in range first?
You cannot target something out of range:
In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit must be within the Range of the weapon being used (as listed on its profile) and be visible to the shooting model.
Good, appreciate the reference.
Okay on this basis, how good is the conqueror (Charlatan ahem Catachan regiment, damnit autocorrect!)
1d6+1d6 shots, re-rolling no. of shots. Re-rolls to hit within 24"+5", Str 8 (so wounding on 2's or 3's vs most things).
Basically the latent re-roll to hit just seems exceptionally strong.
I just can't see the worth of the Executioner (and assuming you'll have some form of re-roll 1's nearby) in comparisons, especially as cheap plasma is so accessible.
Razerous wrote: I've got a question about the conqueror - to target a weapon at a unit, does it need to be in range first?
You cannot target something out of range:
In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit must be within the Range of the weapon being used (as listed on its profile) and be visible to the shooting model.
Good, appreciate the reference.
Okay on this basis, how good is the conqueror (Charlatan ahem Catachan regiment, damnit autocorrect!)
1d6+1d6 shots, re-rolling no. of shots. Re-rolls to hit within 24"+5", Str 8 (so wounding on 2's or 3's vs most things).
Basically the latent re-roll to hit just seems exceptionally strong.
I just can't see the worth of the Executioner (and assuming you'll have some form of re-roll 1's nearby) in comparisons, especially as cheap plasma is so accessible.
Executioner is durable plasma that puts out a stupid amount of shots. Yes, guardsmen are cheaper for more shots, but they can be shot off the table pretty easily, especially in the open. Plasma infantry that can take the weapon in any appreciable number (SWS, vets, command squads) are all very fragile and stormtroopers are a one shot unit usually. Also executioners have a longer range and get all their shots at 36", instead of the 18" a moving infantry squad will get (or 24" if you talk Armageddon) Add in a decked out executioner with plasma cannons and a lascannon still comes in under 200pts, it can put out very respectable firepower considering how much you're paying for durability. Usually it'll get around 10 plasma shots and a lascannon, while Cadians and Catachans can fire potentially far more. Granted it's not as aggressive or reactive as Stormtroopers can be, but it's job is more to anchor a battle line and provide heavy firepower.
Basically, it's your "feth you" button. You pick a target and the executioner makes it go away. It also makes excellent bait in more casual metas, since people tend to freak out the first time they watch it fire the turret twice Personally I think it works best in tandem with plasma Stormtroopers and tons of infantry spamming plasma. Basically make it where no matter what the opponent does, at least one method is hitting home. It's high AP, good stength, and a decent amount of shots, about the only complaint I have is the asinine way modifiers work which means my tank is twice as likely to wound itself when it moves or it fights sneaky marines, but there are ways to mitigate that kind of thing at least.
vipoid wrote: All my IG armies thus far have included no psykers whatsoever. However, that's about to change drastically, so I'm looking for a bit of advice regarding our psychic powers.
For reference, my army is likely to include:
1-3 Primaris Psykers
3 Astropaths
3 Inquisitors
Anyway, my main questions are:
1) How do you rate our psychic powers?
2) Are there some powers that it's better for an Astropath to know (as opposed to a Primaris Psyker), or vice versa?
3) With multiple Psykers, is it better to have an even selection of powers, or should I lean towards redundancy with the 'good' powers?
4) Lastly, does anyone know whether the IG Mental Fortitude counts as the same power as the Inquisition Mental Fortitude? I ask because you can only cast each power once per turn. However, in this case, the powers have the same name but different wording (one affects any Imperium unit, the other only affects IG units), does that matter?
I love Astropaths, but then we play on terrain heavy tables. Being able to remove cover in a bubble is awesome, its essentially giving ap -1 to a couple squads of guard and probably a HWT or LRBT. That's the main reason I bring them. I ussually bring two and put them with the flank squads.
I generally bring one or two primaris, and give them specific tasks (Pyschic barrier or Nightshroud a specific unit). He costs as much as a basic infantry squad, so he needs to be doing something effective as a force multiplier. Keeping my LRBT, Ogryns, or Taurox Prime alive counts in my opinion. I find just doing a few mortal wounds is harder to justify.
1.) I like the buffing ones, and don't much care for the damage ones.
2.) Not really. Neither them or the Primaris are any better at casting spells.
3.) I ussually go for variety. The powers that I pick (in order):
- Pyschic Barrier. Awesome ability. This is defending my troops that already have good save, like Ogryns. I'm looking forward to using it on crusaders now.
- Night shroud. Also an awesome ability. I like to put it on the LRBT, I used to put it on the Taurox Prime.
- Mental Fortitude, great if you run conscripts, but otherwise its below psychic maelstrom in my opinion.
- Psychic Maelstrom. This is ok, lets you get mortal wounds on something you choose. Nice for sniping characters that are charging your lines (like daemon princes).
- Terrifying visions: This would be ok if it didn't cost 7. I don't ussually take it, but its paid off for me once against some MEQ.
- Gaze of the Emperor. Blah I think this is lame. I don't want my psykers that close to bad guys.
4.) In my opinion, its different. its on a different spell list, targets different things, and is given to a different character.
I just won a three way dance between to Marine players with only 2 Company Comms, 1 Sgt., 1 Inf. man w/ Missle Launcher, 1 Inf. man, and a Leeman Russ with Executioner on only one wound left. What a fight.
Stus67 wrote: Just to add to the what's better than discussion, what's everybody's go-to Leman Russ variant?
Battle Cannon is the best all-around choice. Executioner is good with Cadians. Eradicator Autocannon is still the best anti-heavy infantry choice.
Executioner seemed like the go-to choice before GW decided that every army should be at -1 to hit or worse. Overheats on 1, 2 and 3 suck. I'm also using Battle Cannons now (with Cadians and everything else). Conqueror seems amazing. Easily the best Russ variant. I wish it was a codex option so it wouldn't be illegal most of the time.
Hey folks,
Apologies if this has already been mentioned, I tried catching up on the thread but I have a job and need sleep!
I've thought of a couple of wacky, potentially useful tactics, I'd be curious to see what others think of them.
Ogryn taxi: take 1 ogryn bodyguard with slabshield, maul and death mask. Place in a centaur. Use the centaur's small size to hug los-blocking terrain while working up to your opponent's deployment zone, then romp about his backfield assaulting weak objective-holding units. 116 points by my count for a unit that can absorb a silly amount of firepower and potentially derail your opponent's plans - if you get lucky there's linebreaker as well.
Suicidal infernus: take a valhallan malcador infernus with twin heavy flamer sponsons. Charge right into the heart of the enemy, flame everything in sight (avoid chemical ammo as you won't be a threat to vehicles) and hug your opponent's most valuable units. Charge them, even. Seek a glorious death, and use a command point re-roll when it finally is destroyed to ensure it explodes.
Valhallan keeps it moving so that your opponent can't run away, and the weapons are a formidable annoyance. 18w means it will soak up a LOT of firepower, and the threat of the explosion may force your opponent to avoid it, withdraw from combat (wasting a turn), or just take d6 mortal wounds on the chin on every nearby unit.
I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on these ideas - haven't playtested yet but should be able to report back in a few weeks.
Captain Roderick wrote: Hey folks,
Apologies if this has already been mentioned, I tried catching up on the thread but I have a job and need sleep!
I've thought of a couple of wacky, potentially useful tactics, I'd be curious to see what others think of them.
Ogryn taxi: take 1 ogryn bodyguard with slabshield, maul and death mask. Place in a centaur. Use the centaur's small size to hug los-blocking terrain while working up to your opponent's deployment zone, then romp about his backfield assaulting weak objective-holding units. 116 points by my count for a unit that can absorb a silly amount of firepower and potentially derail your opponent's plans - if you get lucky there's linebreaker as well.
Suicidal infernus: take a valhallan malcador infernus with twin heavy flamer sponsons. Charge right into the heart of the enemy, flame everything in sight (avoid chemical ammo as you won't be a threat to vehicles) and hug your opponent's most valuable units. Charge them, even. Seek a glorious death, and use a command point re-roll when it finally is destroyed to ensure it explodes.
Valhallan keeps it moving so that your opponent can't run away, and the weapons are a formidable annoyance. 18w means it will soak up a LOT of firepower, and the threat of the explosion may force your opponent to avoid it, withdraw from combat (wasting a turn), or just take d6 mortal wounds on the chin on every nearby unit.
I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on these ideas - haven't playtested yet but should be able to report back in a few weeks.
My Sororitas use Infernuses, and since they're in a Sororitas detachment they get no trait, but I was thinking Catachan myself to get that sweet sweet shots re-roll on the main armament and the HF sponsons.
Captain Roderick wrote: Hey folks,
Apologies if this has already been mentioned, I tried catching up on the thread but I have a job and need sleep!
I've thought of a couple of wacky, potentially useful tactics, I'd be curious to see what others think of them.
Ogryn taxi: take 1 ogryn bodyguard with slabshield, maul and death mask. Place in a centaur. Use the centaur's small size to hug los-blocking terrain while working up to your opponent's deployment zone, then romp about his backfield assaulting weak objective-holding units. 116 points by my count for a unit that can absorb a silly amount of firepower and potentially derail your opponent's plans - if you get lucky there's linebreaker as well.
Suicidal infernus: take a valhallan malcador infernus with twin heavy flamer sponsons. Charge right into the heart of the enemy, flame everything in sight (avoid chemical ammo as you won't be a threat to vehicles) and hug your opponent's most valuable units. Charge them, even. Seek a glorious death, and use a command point re-roll when it finally is destroyed to ensure it explodes.
Valhallan keeps it moving so that your opponent can't run away, and the weapons are a formidable annoyance. 18w means it will soak up a LOT of firepower, and the threat of the explosion may force your opponent to avoid it, withdraw from combat (wasting a turn), or just take d6 mortal wounds on the chin on every nearby unit.
I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on these ideas - haven't playtested yet but should be able to report back in a few weeks.
The Ogryn Taxi seems like it'll just get stuck in melee against something it can't kill and you'll have waste 3 infantry squads worth of points. Better to buy 3 more squads and rush the enemy with them.
Suicidal Infernus: I'm assuming this is a normal explode on 6. In that case the reroll doesn't even bring you up to the 50% chance you'd need for that to be a viable option. Worse, even successful explodes don't kill much more than loose infantry.
vipoid wrote: All my IG armies thus far have included no psykers whatsoever. However, that's about to change drastically, so I'm looking for a bit of advice regarding our psychic powers.
For reference, my army is likely to include:
1-3 Primaris Psykers
3 Astropaths
3 Inquisitors
Anyway, my main questions are:
1) How do you rate our psychic powers?
2) Are there some powers that it's better for an Astropath to know (as opposed to a Primaris Psyker), or vice versa?
3) With multiple Psykers, is it better to have an even selection of powers, or should I lean towards redundancy with the 'good' powers?
4) Lastly, does anyone know whether the IG Mental Fortitude counts as the same power as the Inquisition Mental Fortitude? I ask because you can only cast each power once per turn. However, in this case, the powers have the same name but different wording (one affects any Imperium unit, the other only affects IG units), does that matter?
I love Astropaths, but then we play on terrain heavy tables. Being able to remove cover in a bubble is awesome, its essentially giving ap -1 to a couple squads of guard and probably a HWT or LRBT. That's the main reason I bring them. I ussually bring two and put them with the flank squads.
I generally bring one or two primaris, and give them specific tasks (Pyschic barrier or Nightshroud a specific unit). He costs as much as a basic infantry squad, so he needs to be doing something effective as a force multiplier. Keeping my LRBT, Ogryns, or Taurox Prime alive counts in my opinion. I find just doing a few mortal wounds is harder to justify.
1.) I like the buffing ones, and don't much care for the damage ones.
2.) Not really. Neither them or the Primaris are any better at casting spells.
3.) I ussually go for variety. The powers that I pick (in order):
- Pyschic Barrier. Awesome ability. This is defending my troops that already have good save, like Ogryns. I'm looking forward to using it on crusaders now.
- Night shroud. Also an awesome ability. I like to put it on the LRBT, I used to put it on the Taurox Prime.
- Mental Fortitude, great if you run conscripts, but otherwise its below psychic maelstrom in my opinion.
- Psychic Maelstrom. This is ok, lets you get mortal wounds on something you choose. Nice for sniping characters that are charging your lines (like daemon princes).
- Terrifying visions: This would be ok if it didn't cost 7. I don't ussually take it, but its paid off for me once against some MEQ.
- Gaze of the Emperor. Blah I think this is lame. I don't want my psykers that close to bad guys.
4.) In my opinion, its different. its on a different spell list, targets different things, and is given to a different character.
4) I opened a YMDC on this and the verdict is clear. What matters is that they have the same name, so you cannot cast one from a Primaris and one from an Inquisitor.
@charger you're right, it might get stuck in combat, but the question is whether the thing that it can't kill is worth more points than it is. If so I'd consider the points well spent. If you play against a lot of superheavies it's probably not worth it but short of Lords of war anything that can tie it up or kill it will not be usefully pummelling your line (I hope).
And unit was right on the money - 4+ with a re-roll seems like a fair chance.
Anyone have any experience with a Marauder Bomber? I just started assembling mine and hot damn does it look fun. 2 Lascannons, and 4 heavy bolters is meh, but some sweet Mortal wound capabilities. Especially with those Hellstorm bombs.
Razerous wrote: What about x number of hellhounds, doing much... ah they don't have the steel behemoth rule.
Got it
Neither does the malcador - tbh you could probably do it with either, but the explosion is smaller on the hellhounds and will backfire less with just 1 malcador. I also like the d2 on its flamer, and psychologically I imagine it's more annoying to have 1 malcador up in your grill than 3 hellhounds. Could be wrong though, and if one just wants to flame as many things as possible, the hellhounds are probably better.
My Sororitas use Infernuses, and since they're in a Sororitas detachment they get no trait, but I was thinking Catachan myself to get that sweet sweet shots re-roll on the main armament and the HF sponsons.
Also, I do use it as a suicide bomber sometimes
I like the catachan re-roll of course, but I feel like keeping it moving (since it already auto-hits) seems more utilitarian. I hate the idea of losing a target through only being able to move 4...
necrontyrOG wrote: Anyone have any experience with a Marauder Bomber? I just started assembling mine and hot damn does it look fun. 2 Lascannons, and 4 heavy bolters is meh, but some sweet Mortal wound capabilities. Especially with those Hellstorm bombs.
Only the Marauder Destroyer. The hellstrikes were F'N SWEET but the bombs were a bit underwhelming. I think I got more mileage out of the tail and turret guns.
What have people's experiences been with the Hellhound? I've only used it a couple times, and the range is so short and the number of shots so random that it didn't feel super effective for the points.
I like hellhounds still. My primary use for them is as a psychological warfare unit though, not a point-effective unit. You might get your points back if you're lucky (or killing Rangers) but ultimately, the way to play them is to get them as close to multiple enemy units as possible and have them start dealing out the pain, and then watch the opponent try to get his stuff out of your 4+ death bubble before destroying you out of fear of the mortal wounds. It forces him to react to you, and it's cheap enough you can spare it.
Way I see it is any damage you do along the way before that happens is just gravy.
Razerous wrote: So an assault 16 gun, str6 ap -1 isn't any good? (Hellhound)
Technically a Heavy 2d6 Str6 Ap -1 autohit weapon.
That being said it's an amazing threat when combined with it's armor and speed. It'll eat 3-5 MEQ a turn, which is just enough to force way more than 100pts to be dedicated to destroying it over a couple turns. It's the only fast attack option I've seen that actually flanks and does it well.
Perhaps it was just the games that I played. I am often presented with threats that it's not particularly effective against (vehicles, Daemon Primarchs, elite models with Invulns), or it gets killed quickly because it is short ranged and people have to go through it to get to my backline.
I think it's good, but the meta has made it feel less effective than I previously estimated it at.
Requizen wrote: Perhaps it was just the games that I played. I am often presented with threats that it's not particularly effective against (vehicles, Daemon Primarchs, elite models with Invulns), or it gets killed quickly because it is short ranged and people have to go through it to get to my backline.
I think it's good, but the meta has made it feel less effective than I previously estimated it at.
I've been using two (one with Inferno and one with Chem Cannon) and they have been useful. They attract lots of fire, which sucks for them but is good for other things in my army. They can help guard a flank against assault since their auto-hits can be deadly in Overwatch. If they reach the enemy line, of course, they can dish out some pain.
Just getting into guard in 8th ed, and I wanted to double check on some clarification for the Catachan regiment, because it seems really, really awesome.
So re-rolling on flamers is pretty obvious, but then when I bring FW into it, I would get to re-roll the number of shots on a Earthshaker Carriage, or heavy quad launcher, as they both have the Vehicle and Regiment keywords.
An army filled with flamer scout sentinels, hellhounds and some artillery seems like a really good time.
gwarsh41 wrote: Just getting into guard in 8th ed, and I wanted to double check on some clarification for the Catachan regiment, because it seems really, really awesome.
So re-rolling on flamers is pretty obvious, but then when I bring FW into it, I would get to re-roll the number of shots on a Earthshaker Carriage, or heavy quad launcher, as they both have the Vehicle and Regiment keywords.
An army filled with flamer scout sentinels, hellhounds and some artillery seems like a really good time.
Yeah, but even better is the wyvern (4d6 attacks, reroll to wound, 93pts)
The Leman Russ Battle Cannon (D6 attacks, AP-2)
I'm not certain flamer scount sentials are worth it since they can't use them in melee, but the hellhound is defintly good with the 2d6 attacks and 16" range
So do people buy the metal Ratling models or convert them? I was thinking of getting some Skaven models for conversion fodder, what have other people done?
Requizen wrote: So do people buy the metal Ratling models or convert them? I was thinking of getting some Skaven models for conversion fodder, what have other people done?
gwarsh41 wrote: Just getting into guard in 8th ed, and I wanted to double check on some clarification for the Catachan regiment, because it seems really, really awesome.
So re-rolling on flamers is pretty obvious, but then when I bring FW into it, I would get to re-roll the number of shots on a Earthshaker Carriage, or heavy quad launcher, as they both have the Vehicle and Regiment keywords.
An army filled with flamer scout sentinels, hellhounds and some artillery seems like a really good time.
Yeah, but even better is the wyvern (4d6 attacks, reroll to wound, 93pts)
The Leman Russ Battle Cannon (D6 attacks, AP-2)
I'm not certain flamer scount sentials are worth it since they can't use them in melee, but the hellhound is defintly good with the 2d6 attacks and 16" range
Great to know they work as written! I was sure there was going to be some hidden line I missed or something. Have any suggestions for loadouts on sentinels? I have 10 of them... I like sentinels.
Requizen wrote: So do people buy the metal Ratling models or convert them? I was thinking of getting some Skaven models for conversion fodder, what have other people done?
Honestly I'm using 10 old dwarf metal thunderers from WFB. These dwarfs were probably some of the best things I ever painted as a kid, so I've been trying to find reasons not to ebay them with the rest of my dwarfs.
But I may switch to my Ratskin gangers since I'm going to repaint them for Necromunda. Ratlings. . .ratskins. . .same difference right? They're largely inconsequential in most of my games anyway.
Requizen wrote: So do people buy the metal Ratling models or convert them? I was thinking of getting some Skaven models for conversion fodder, what have other people done?
I know a lot of IG players who just use regular sniper models, and just make sure they never use snipers elsewhere in the list. That way they can point at all their snipers and say they're ratlings.
I personally would use the metal ones, I kind of like them personally.
Skaven seem like they'd be a bit too "beastly" to be in an imperial force personally, but who knows, you may be able to make them work.
gwarsh41 wrote: Just getting into guard in 8th ed, and I wanted to double check on some clarification for the Catachan regiment, because it seems really, really awesome.
So re-rolling on flamers is pretty obvious, but then when I bring FW into it, I would get to re-roll the number of shots on a Earthshaker Carriage, or heavy quad launcher, as they both have the Vehicle and Regiment keywords.
An army filled with flamer scout sentinels, hellhounds and some artillery seems like a really good time.
Yeah, but even better is the wyvern (4d6 attacks, reroll to wound, 93pts)
The Leman Russ Battle Cannon (D6 attacks, AP-2)
I'm not certain flamer scount sentials are worth it since they can't use them in melee, but the hellhound is defintly good with the 2d6 attacks and 16" range
Great to know they work as written! I was sure there was going to be some hidden line I missed or something. Have any suggestions for loadouts on sentinels? I have 10 of them... I like sentinels.
It's worth remembering that it only works on 1 dice per weapon, so catachan has the biggest statistical impact on 1d6 weapons such as the battle cannon. It also works great on earthshakers and you should always re-roll the lowest. Wyvern feel being catachan the least.
Razerous wrote: So an assault 16 gun, str6 ap -1 isn't any good? (Hellhound)
Technically a Heavy 2d6 Str6 Ap -1 autohit weapon.
That being said it's an amazing threat when combined with it's armor and speed. It'll eat 3-5 MEQ a turn, which is just enough to force way more than 100pts to be dedicated to destroying it over a couple turns. It's the only fast attack option I've seen that actually flanks and does it well.
It's worth remembering that it only works on 1 dice per weapon, so catachan has the biggest statistical impact on 1d6 weapons such as the battle cannon. It also works great on earthshakers and you should always re-roll the lowest. Wyvern feel being catachan the least.
That is a great bit of info to remember, thank you! Should help the malcador infernus be properly terrifying!
It's worth remembering that it only works on 1 dice per weapon, so catachan has the biggest statistical impact on 1d6 weapons such as the battle cannon. It also works great on earthshakers and you should always re-roll the lowest. Wyvern feel being catachan the least.
The Catachan doctrine actually does very little for Earthshakers. They benefit less than basically anything else that benefits at all. Even the 4d6 Wyvern does about 13% better with the doctrine, whereas an Earthshaker only does 11% better.
gendoikari87 wrote: So question. What would the consensus be on using triple flamer vet squads in twin heavy flamer chimeras for anti infantry and objective grabbing?
As long as the triple flamer vet squads have a heavy flamer in addition (so 4 flamers) and have a Catachan regiment keyword for to issue the "Burn them Out" order, that'd be pretty badass.
Though IMO the chimera is a bad transport for its price, I think the dual heavy flamer loadout is so on theme that you're golden.
Have your fast attack be Hellhounds, your elite choices be lascannon Command Squads (so you can actually kill tanks with something) and your heavy support be Malcador Infernuses, and then BURN EVERYTHING.
gendoikari87 wrote: So question. What would the consensus be on using triple flamer vet squads in twin heavy flamer chimeras for anti infantry and objective grabbing?
As long as the triple flamer vet squads have a heavy flamer in addition (so 4 flamers) and have a Catachan regiment keyword for to issue the "Burn them Out" order, that'd be pretty badass.
Though IMO the chimera is a bad transport for its price, I think the dual heavy flamer loadout is so on theme that you're golden.
Have your fast attack be Hellhounds, your elite choices be lascannon Command Squads (so you can actually kill tanks with something) and your heavy support be Malcador Infernuses, and then BURN EVERYTHING.
sir I like the way you think!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also plasmacutioners for anti tank anyone trying this since plasma vents took it down to a single mortal wound now? Point for point they're awesome .... also you can still fire them afterwards now
gwarsh41 wrote: Just getting into guard in 8th ed, and I wanted to double check on some clarification for the Catachan regiment, because it seems really, really awesome.
So re-rolling on flamers is pretty obvious, but then when I bring FW into it, I would get to re-roll the number of shots on a Earthshaker Carriage, or heavy quad launcher, as they both have the Vehicle and Regiment keywords.
An army filled with flamer scout sentinels, hellhounds and some artillery seems like a really good time.
Yeah, but even better is the wyvern (4d6 attacks, reroll to wound, 93pts)
The Leman Russ Battle Cannon (D6 attacks, AP-2)
I'm not certain flamer scount sentials are worth it since they can't use them in melee, but the hellhound is defintly good with the 2d6 attacks and 16" range
Great to know they work as written! I was sure there was going to be some hidden line I missed or something. Have any suggestions for loadouts on sentinels? I have 10 of them... I like sentinels.
Cheap, Multilaser or Flamethrower and use Scout ability to push Deep Strike off the rest of your units.
It's worth remembering that it only works on 1 dice per weapon, so catachan has the biggest statistical impact on 1d6 weapons such as the battle cannon. It also works great on earthshakers and you should always re-roll the lowest. Wyvern feel being catachan the least.
The Catachan doctrine actually does very little for Earthshakers. They benefit less than basically anything else that benefits at all. Even the 4d6 Wyvern does about 13% better with the doctrine, whereas an Earthshaker only does 11% better.
The catachan doctrine has a smaller percentage increase in firepower when multiple dice are rolled, but more dice increases the raw increase in shots. Earthshakers prefer the cadian doctrine (barely), but 2d6 blasts love being catachan, because the odds of rolling low with at least one die go up, so that reroll is very handy. You can check my math here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/3120/725440.page#9644878
The gist is that under catachan, d6s gain .72 shots, 2d6 drop the lowest gain .5 shots, and 2d6 gain 1.23 shots. This is roughly a 20% bump in firepower. The key is to compare it to the other two relevant doctrines: tallarn and cadian. Tallarn give a 50% boost to heavy weapons on the move, which is really only relevant to sentinels, hull and sponson weapons on the LRBT, the Devil Dog, and transports. None of those are generally seen as heavy lifters, except maybe for the LRBT (assuming lascannon/HBx2, A tallarn LRBT gains 1/6 lascannon hit and 1 HB hit per turn over any other tank moving, while the catachan LRBT would gain .36 Battle Cannon hits) The Doctrines are just powerful enough to shape what you take. IF you like hellhounds, anything with heavy flamers, bare bones LRBTS, manticores, or even basilisks, Catachan is the favorite. Tallan love fully loaded but mobile LRBTs (but not with heavy flamers), Tauroxes, Devil Dogs, and armored sentinels. Cadian love static LRBTs, basilisks, Wyvverns, hydras (who rarely need to move).
gendoikari87 wrote: So question. What would the consensus be on using triple flamer vet squads in twin heavy flamer chimeras for anti infantry and objective grabbing?
Why not just use a pair of flamer special weapon squads or flamer equipped command squads for more flamers per transport, then have a follow up transport with an officer and vet squad rocking something like plasma/melta as a contingency plan?
Takes more vehicles but gives you more firepower on target and is harder to stop.
gendoikari87 wrote: So question. What would the consensus be on using triple flamer vet squads in twin heavy flamer chimeras for anti infantry and objective grabbing?
Why not just use a pair of flamer special weapon squads or flamer equipped command squads for more flamers per transport, then have a follow up transport with an officer and vet squad rocking something like plasma/melta as a contingency plan?
Takes more vehicles but gives you more firepower on target and is harder to stop.
have you been reading my mind? Cause I've been thinking just that....
While getting the slightly extra firepower seems good, I'm considering making my vehicle detachment Valhallan. Too often my Basilisks or Manticores take a couple d6 hits and, while not dead yet, are essentially useless and ignorable since hitting on 5+ or 6+ is such a huge disadvantage. Being able to mitigate that seems just as useful as getting a smidge more damage out of random shots.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also do you think we should shift away from Artillery given that there are now so many sources of "-1 to hit when far away" doctrines?
Requizen wrote: While getting the slightly extra firepower seems good, I'm considering making my vehicle detachment Valhallan. Too often my Basilisks or Manticores take a couple d6 hits and, while not dead yet, are essentially useless and ignorable since hitting on 5+ or 6+ is such a huge disadvantage. Being able to mitigate that seems just as useful as getting a smidge more damage out of random shots.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also do you think we should shift away from Artillery given that there are now so many sources of "-1 to hit when far away" doctrines?
Not really, if -1 invalidated artillery it would invalidate most of our other units as well.
Big thing to remember is that if they chose that strategy they lose out on more offensive firepower in the opening turns for a more consistent long game. Just like you've chosen to drop say cadia/catachan for valhallan, they've chose to drop things like Mars, Ultramarines, etc.
This means your battle will be a little bit more of a slugging match than just focusing on the alpha strikes. Not a huge amount obviously, aloha strikes are still king, but it'll be noticeable.
IG are meant to deal with stuff like this by weight of fire anyways, which is what we specialize in. The massive amount of blast weapons we have alone ensure that. Not to mention high rof weapons like punishers and FRFSRF, and aggressive close quarters fire like Stormtroopers, hellhounds, and potentially vets dropped from Valkyries.
Like any other army trait, -1 requires some forethought going in. It's not a lost battle, just a different one.
Is there any point to Commissars in a Mordian army anymore? They're either LD 8 via Parade Drill or LD 8 via the Commissar right? LD 9 if there's a banner. Or does Parade Drill go into effect after the Commissar bonus?
lahcimus wrote: They dont, i simply saw some people include them for benefits from difrent doctrines
I never noticed that. I knew primes didn't have a regiment keyword as they're stormtrooper vehicles but if they don't have a regiment keyword for the normal autocannon ones that seems really weird and can't be intentional, it'd be the only vehicle we have that's not a plane that can't take a regiment trait, at least as far as the codex is concerned.
necrontyrOG wrote: Is there any point to Commissars in a Mordian army anymore? They're either LD 8 via Parade Drill or LD 8 via the Commissar right? LD 9 if there's a banner. Or does Parade Drill go into effect after the Commissar bonus?
If you have conscripts they still have a place. Don't let them anywhere near standard infantry squads.
So I've been playing Cadian and think laurels of command is way better on Cadians than other regiments, and is so good that the superior tactical training warlord trait is better than grand strategist in many Cadian lists.
The full rerolls to hit when take aim is combined with Cadian Doctrine makes orders more important than it is on other lists. It's usually more important to get the full reroll to hit on the lascannon than FRFSRF at 13-24", but when I get both it's amazing. This is particularly good at erasing a tough vehicle once it's takes a single plasma wound from a Russ the infantry based lascannons hit 8 out of 9 times with overlapping fields of fire or 75% of the time when a +1 and -1 to hit cancel each other out.
My Infantry consists of 6 infantry squads with lascannons and plasma guns and 6 mortar HWS. I run 3 company commanders.
Combine squads 2 infantry squads near the astro path that has mental fortitude. Spend 1 CP to issue an additional order. Now 4 infantry squads have a chance for laurels double orders and I have 3 chances to make additional orders from the Laurels company commander.
This will yield 2 to 5 orders more than I have infantry squads. That excess goes into the mortar HWS giving them full Cadian rerolls to hit.
The infantry in my Cadian Brigade put out a lot of dakka for brigade filler units. I make up for their lack of mobility with an Elysian vanguard and rough riders in the Cadian Brigade.
schadenfreude wrote: So I've been playing Cadian and think laurels of command is way better on Cadians than other regiments, and is so good that the superior tactical training warlord trait is better than grand strategist in many Cadian lists.
The full rerolls to hit when take aim is combined with Cadian Doctrine makes orders more important than it is on other lists. It's usually more important to get the full reroll to hit on the lascannon than FRFSRF at 13-24", but when I get both it's amazing. This is particularly good at erasing a tough vehicle once it's takes a single plasma wound from a Russ the infantry based lascannons hit 8 out of 9 times with overlapping fields of fire or 75% of the time when a +1 and -1 to hit cancel each other out.
My Infantry consists of 6 infantry squads with lascannons and plasma guns and 6 mortar HWS. I run 3 company commanders.
Combine squads 2 infantry squads near the astro path that has mental fortitude. Spend 1 CP to issue an additional order. Now 4 infantry squads have a chance for laurels double orders and I have 3 chances to make additional orders from the Laurels company commander.
This will yield 2 to 5 orders more than I have infantry squads. That excess goes into the mortar HWS giving them full Cadian rerolls to hit.
The infantry in my Cadian Brigade put out a lot of dakka for brigade filler units. I make up for their lack of mobility with an Elysian vanguard and rough riders in the Cadian Brigade.
Laurels on Scions has been working wonders for me. 3 units of overcharged rapid firing plasma getting extra shots on 6's, rerolling 1's to hit, and rerolling all wounds on vehicles/monsters is absolutely brutal.
So I'm a little behind the ball in that I don't have the updated codex yet, but bear with me here...
Played a casual game today at my place still using the index rules, but I elected to leave out the Commissar as a test (since in the updated codex/FAQ he's funky.)
I ran a 20 man Conscript unit with a Company Commander and Regimental Standard behind them. Turn one the Conscript unit suffered 12 casualties, then an additional 8 from Morale losses.
Granted, they did their job by absorbing an obscene amount of fire for their points, but it was still a whole unit lost.
Is it more efficient perhaps to run numerous un-modified 10 man infantry squads (less vulnerable to Morale)? Or perhaps just stick with 20 man conscript units (as a 10 man unit would have been destroyed by the same amount of fire)?
I ran a 20 man Conscript unit with a Company Commander and Regimental Standard behind them. Turn one the Conscript unit suffered 12 casualties, then an additional 8 from Morale losses.
Granted, they did their job by absorbing an obscene amount of fire for their points, but it was still a whole unit lost.
Alternative ways of viewing the same situation.
24 points of models died in the morale phase.
12 regular infantry being killed is 48 points plus the heavy or special weapons. A fully decked out plasma lascannon squad is 70 points so they absorbed the dakka that would have killed 78 points of decked out infantry even after morale removed 8 conscripts. A lower priced and popular alternative squad would be 53 points for a plasma gun and mortar which would have lost 61 points of models.
Conscripts v infantry is a tough choice. The only thing I don't think works is mixing the 2 because your opponent will shoot the regular infantry 1st.
The basic Macharius and Macharius Vanquisher both look pretty pointless, particularly with the new Grinding Advance, bringing the same firepower as a Russ for...more than twice the cost.
The Macharius Vulcan however looks to be a pretty solid all-rounder. Up to 30 main gun shots, 15 if moving, at S6 AP-2 and 2 Damage. This makes it oddly multi-role, as the sheer volume of fire with 30 shots allows it to threaten things that ordinarily wouldn't much care. It's putting more average wounds (~6.66) on a typical T7/T8 3+sv tank than most dedicated tank hunter units (more than a Quadlas Pred or double firing "reroll everything" fire prism, and approaching 3x the average wounds of the Macharius Vanquisher...) while also obviously being a stellar muppet mower of infantry of any kind, particularly when coupled with a 60" range, and has an extremely consistent damage output due to the low variability of its stats.
It's not spectacularly cheap, ~370-ish points after kit, but looks to be solid for that cost given its range and flexibility (though obviously isn't matching a Shadowsword for cost effectiveness).
#Transport
- 2x Chimera with 2x Heavy Bolter
- Taurox Prime - Gatling + 2xHotshot-Volley Gun
Supreme Command - Tallarn
- Tank Commander - Punisher - 3x Heavy Bolter
- 2x Tank Commander - Battle Canon - Lascanon - 2x Heavy Bolter
Vanguard - Tallarn
#HQ - Company Commander - Plasma Pistol
#Elite
- Veterans - Shotguns, 3x Melter, Heavy Flamer, Plasma Pistol
- 2x Special Weapon - 3x Plasma each
- Astropath
- Tech Priest Enginseer
#Transport
- 2x Chimera - 2x Heavy Bolter
Points: 2000
CP: 8
Notes:
- Astropath and Enginseer are supporting my Russes
- Company Commander with Plasma Pistol + Astropath are supporting the Veterans and Special Weapon Squads
- I dont know if i should swap the Plasma with Flamers?
- Sentinels for deepstrike denial + fire support
- Tempestor Prime + Scions go in Taurox Prime to unleash some FRFSRF madness
- Scion Command Squad acts as a suicide unit
#Transport
- 2x Chimera with 2x Heavy Bolter
- Taurox Prime - Gatling + 2xHotshot-Volley Gun
Supreme Command - Tallarn
- Tank Commander - Punisher - 3x Heavy Bolter
- 2x Tank Commander - Battle Canon - Lascanon - 2x Heavy Bolter
Vanguard - Tallarn
#HQ - Company Commander - Plasma Pistol
#Elite
- Veterans - Shotguns, 3x Melter, Heavy Flamer, Plasma Pistol
- 2x Special Weapon - 3x Plasma each
- Astropath
- Tech Priest Enginseer
#Transport
- 2x Chimera - 2x Heavy Bolter
Points: 2000
CP: 8
Notes:
- Astropath and Enginseer are supporting my Russes
- Company Commander with Plasma Pistol + Astropath are supporting the Veterans and Special Weapon Squads
- I dont know if i should swap the Plasma with Flamers?
- Sentinels for deepstrike denial + fire support
- Tempestor Prime + Scions go in Taurox Prime to unleash some FRFSRF madness
- Scion Command Squad acts as a suicide unit
Thanks in advance
Okay, here are my thoughts:
1) Am I right in thinking that the 2 Infantry Squads will be in the Chimeras? If so, I don't understand why you'd want Heavy Bolters on them. Especially in a Tallarn army. The Voxes also seem like a waste.
2) The Scions seem like an odd choice to me. The lack of Special Weapons seems like a real waste. As does putting them in a Taurox when they can Deep Strike. I can kinda see what you're going for but I think you're overestimating the power of AP-2 lasguns with an optimal range of just 9".
3) If it was me, I'd try to find the points for Lascannons on the Sentinels, rather than Autocannons.
4) Do you find Tank Commanders worth it? I ask because if you made them regular Leman Russ tanks instead, you'd be just 15pts shy of buying a 4th Leman Russ.
5) If you do want to keep them as Tank Commanders, would it be worth considering Executioners instead of the Battle Tanks? They might derive more benefit from being able to reroll 1s.
1) Am I right in thinking that the 2 Infantry Squads will be in the Chimeras? If so, I don't understand why you'd want Heavy Bolters on them. Especially in a Tallarn army. The Voxes also seem like a waste.
2) The Scions seem like an odd choice to me. The lack of Special Weapons seems like a real waste. As does putting them in a Taurox when they can Deep Strike. I can kinda see what you're going for but I think you're overestimating the power of AP-2 lasguns with an optimal range of just 9".
3) If it was me, I'd try to find the points for Lascannons on the Sentinels, rather than Autocannons.
4) Do you find Tank Commanders worth it? I ask because if you made them regular Leman Russ tanks instead, you'd be just 15pts shy of buying a 4th Leman Russ.
5) If you do want to keep them as Tank Commanders, would it be worth considering Executioners instead of the Battle Tanks? They might derive more benefit from being able to reroll 1s.
First of all thanks for your feedback. To your points:
1) Yes that´s right. Heavy Bolter is just there for some extra firepower when they hop out of the transport. And I dont think I will need to advance them, because they got their transport, but maybe that´s not optimal.
Regarding the Vox: I got one Company Commander for the two Squads the Vox are just there, so they can operate more independently.
2) I dont know, its just a cheap version of dealing with MEQ. If in rapid fire range, they deal 3,5 wounds against Marines in cover + the 2 Plasma shots. Is this to bad?
3) It´s a quite expensive weapon for a Scout Sentinel imo.
4) Atm I just have 3 Russes, to no way to include a 4th for me But nevertheless I find Tank Commanders, especially Tallarn, worth it. The unique order allows you to move-shot-move or move-move-shot. And I just like the idea of my Russes "speeding" around the battlefield^^
5) Well that would be quite risky, since I want to use the Tallarn order most of the time.
Alas, if Trojan's weren't basically 100pts each...
I was thinking the Cadian doctrine for the Macharius tanks especially as they get double shots if they don't move, but the Valhallan doctrine is also super tempting just to know your tanks are going to function at full effectiveness until basically dead.
I ran a 20 man Conscript unit with a Company Commander and Regimental Standard behind them. Turn one the Conscript unit suffered 12 casualties, then an additional 8 from Morale losses.
Granted, they did their job by absorbing an obscene amount of fire for their points, but it was still a whole unit lost.
Alternative ways of viewing the same situation.
24 points of models died in the morale phase.
12 regular infantry being killed is 48 points plus the heavy or special weapons. A fully decked out plasma lascannon squad is 70 points so they absorbed the dakka that would have killed 78 points of decked out infantry even after morale removed 8 conscripts. A lower priced and popular alternative squad would be 53 points for a plasma gun and mortar which would have lost 61 points of models.
Conscripts v infantry is a tough choice. The only thing I don't think works is mixing the 2 because your opponent will shoot the regular infantry 1st.
Never thought of putting plasma on regular infantry, always used plasma on my veterans (still stuck in 7th edition thinking hehe.) Any thoughts on using minimally upgraded/no upgrade infantry squads vs conscripts?
First of all thanks for your feedback. To your points:
1) Yes that´s right. Heavy Bolter is just there for some extra firepower when they hop out of the transport. And I dont think I will need to advance them, because they got their transport, but maybe that´s not optimal.
Regarding the Vox: I got one Company Commander for the two Squads the Vox are just there, so they can operate more independently.
2) I dont know, its just a cheap version of dealing with MEQ. If in rapid fire range, they deal 3,5 wounds against Marines in cover + the 2 Plasma shots. Is this to bad?
3) It´s a quite expensive weapon for a Scout Sentinel imo.
4) Atm I just have 3 Russes, to no way to include a 4th for me But nevertheless I find Tank Commanders, especially Tallarn, worth it. The unique order allows you to move-shot-move or move-move-shot. And I just like the idea of my Russes "speeding" around the battlefield^^
5) Well that would be quite risky, since I want to use the Tallarn order most of the time.
1) I get that, but the fact that you'll be hitting on 5s when you disembark (and if you move at all in subsequent turns) makes me disinclined to take them.
2) Something else to consider - if you drop one of your Company Commanders (obviously swap them around if you want a particular one to be your warlord) and both voxes, then you could afford a Platoon Commander to accompany each Infantry Squad. This would give you greater freedom still as well as greater redundancy.
3) Well, it's 5pts more than the Autocannon. However, IMO, it's a much better weapon. Moreover, you already have plenty of Heavy Bolters (which are quite comparable to Autocannons), but just a couple of Lascannons.
4) Fair enough.
5) One final consideration - if you're using the Tallarn order for speed, would a Demolisher or two be more useful, since the shorter range is likely to matter a lot less?
1) I get that, but the fact that you'll be hitting on 5s when you disembark (and if you move at all in subsequent turns) makes me disinclined to take them.
2) Something else to consider - if you drop one of your Company Commanders (obviously swap them around if you want a particular one to be your warlord) and both voxes, then you could afford a Platoon Commander to accompany each Infantry Squad. This would give you greater freedom still as well as greater redundancy.
3) Well, it's 5pts more than the Autocannon. However, IMO, it's a much better weapon. Moreover, you already have plenty of Heavy Bolters (which are quite comparable to Autocannons), but just a couple of Lascannons.
4) Fair enough.
5) One final consideration - if you're using the Tallarn order for speed, would a Demolisher or two be more useful, since the shorter range is likely to matter a lot less?
1) Good point with the Bolters, I dropped them.
2) I just like the Voxes fluff wise and since this list doesnt have to be mega competitive I think I can bring up the 10 points for them.
3) Good point, I will add them. Or maybe Missle Launchers or are they pure crap?
5) I´m just a not a big fan of the Demolisher Canon. Also you can use the order defensivlely, e.g. move your 5" around a corner, shoot your Battle Canon twice and then go back behind the corner out of line of sight. Therefor the range of the battle canon can be quite valuable.
So I wrote a new list with a few adjustments:
- Dropped the Taurox Prime, a Chimera and the Heavy Weapons
- Added a normal Taurox (will be used by the Chimera - Infantry Squad) and a Hellhound
- Swapped the Scions Command Squad to Hotshot-Volley Guns
- Added pintle-mounted weapons to my transports
- Dropped the Heavy Flamer on the Vets, since it´s is a heavy weapon, so no advancing an shooting with it
So my new list:
Spoiler:
#HQ - Company Commander - Bolt Pistol, Aquilla
- Company Commander - Plasma Pistol
- Primaris Psyker
- Tempestor Prime - Plasma Pistol
- Tank Commander - Punisher, 3x HB - 2x Tank Commander - Battle Canon, Lascanon, 2xHB
Regarding Lascannons vs. Missile Launchers, I think Lascannons are a better choice.
Their extra strength and AP is a great help against a lot of vehicles and such. Missile Launchers trade that for a secondary attack which rarely ever seems use.
I guess if you fight mostly horde/infantry armies then the missile launcher could be worth considering, but mostly I find we have enough anti-infantry firepower that we can comfortably take more dedicated anti-tank wepons.
gendoikari87 wrote: So question. What’s the best way to load up taurox primes and what is best fill them with?
My "go-to" is Taurox Gatling Cannon, Hot-Shot Volley Guns, and a Storm Bolter gives you a 97 point vehicle that spits 30 S4 shots. Battle Cannon and Autocannons is decent long-range firepower but clocks in at 123 points. The Missile Launcher adds another 22 on top of that, and at that point you may as well just take a Manticore.
As for riding inside, nothing. Only Scions can ride, and unless you are desperate to reduce your deployment count, there's very little reason for them not to deep strike. Inquisitors, Acolytes, and Jokaero can ride too, but they'll need their own Detatchment if you don't want to lose your regiment bonuses.
Thoughts on a Tempestus Prime with command stick and the laurels inside a chimera, and using the strategem to send out orders (I'm running a Scion army)? Pros include the increased safety of a key character, more mobility (to get in range of units that would benefit most from the order stacking), and the strategem removes the need to keep a vox around. Cons include locking the orders behind 1CP, and if the chimera gets wrecked it leaves a key character stranded.
I don't like it honestly. Maybe with a company commander, but the biggest selling point of tempestus is that you can just put them where you need them.
For the price of a chimera, take another Prime and keep him in reserves until you need one somewhere.
strepp wrote: Thoughts on a Tempestus Prime with command stick and the laurels inside a chimera, and using the strategem to send out orders (I'm running a Scion army)? Pros include the increased safety of a key character, more mobility (to get in range of units that would benefit most from the order stacking), and the strategem removes the need to keep a vox around. Cons include locking the orders behind 1CP, and if the chimera gets wrecked it leaves a key character stranded.
I have a Brigade currently that is mostly Scions but with vehicles in FA and HS. I can keep it together and give the Vehicles a good Regiment (thinking Catachan or Valhalla), but then the Scions and Tauroxes get nothing.
I could split them into 1/2 Battalion(s) and a Spearhead, but then I'm giving up CPs that could be quite useful.
How do you guys value the Tempestus Doctrine? It feels really unreliable to me, but occasional extra Plasma shots or Taurox shooting could be quite useful as well.
I use Scions mostly as OBJ grabbers or psychological warfare and only occasionally to actually kill high priority targets. I just stick them in a patrol or maybe their own BN. My goal for CPs is 9. I rarely require more than that, especially with warlord trait and relic.
Requizen wrote: How do people value CPs vs Regimental Doctrines?
I have a Brigade currently that is mostly Scions but with vehicles in FA and HS. I can keep it together and give the Vehicles a good Regiment (thinking Catachan or Valhalla), but then the Scions and Tauroxes get nothing.
I could split them into 1/2 Battalion(s) and a Spearhead, but then I'm giving up CPs that could be quite useful.
How do you guys value the Tempestus Doctrine? It feels really unreliable to me, but occasional extra Plasma shots or Taurox shooting could be quite useful as well.
Something else to consider here - how many uses do you have for CPs?
I ask because, if you're just using vehicles, then the Catachan and Valhallan Stratagems are both useless. And the MT stratagem is rather niche, to say the least. If you take Grand Strategist, then you can potentially stretch your CPs further still, and the Aquila has a good chance of getting you more.
So, it really depends on how many CPs you think you'll need for rerolls or universal Stratagems. If you don't tend to use many, I'd split them to get the MT doctrine. If you use them a lot, keep your army the way it is.
Requizen wrote: How do people value CPs vs Regimental Doctrines?
I have a Brigade currently that is mostly Scions but with vehicles in FA and HS. I can keep it together and give the Vehicles a good Regiment (thinking Catachan or Valhalla), but then the Scions and Tauroxes get nothing.
I could split them into 1/2 Battalion(s) and a Spearhead, but then I'm giving up CPs that could be quite useful.
How do you guys value the Tempestus Doctrine? It feels really unreliable to me, but occasional extra Plasma shots or Taurox shooting could be quite useful as well.
Something else to consider here - how many uses do you have for CPs?
I ask because, if you're just using vehicles, then the Catachan and Valhallan Stratagems are both useless. And the MT stratagem is rather niche, to say the least. If you take Grand Strategist, then you can potentially stretch your CPs further still, and the Aquila has a good chance of getting you more.
So, it really depends on how many CPs you think you'll need for rerolls or universal Stratagems. If you don't tend to use many, I'd split them to get the MT doctrine. If you use them a lot, keep your army the way it is.
It really depends on your regiment(s) army type, heck even the weapons you use. I know I burn through strategems something fierce, if nothing more for the basic rerolls and 2cp insane bravery. Add "fight to the death", Take cover, combine squads, and even potentially the counterattack one from the main rulebook, and I can potentially burn through 10+ points by the end of turn 1.
I feel like even vehicles would still use a few a turn. Nowhere near as much as an infantry list but hey, extra CP's never hurt.
Nice that makes things easy. Vanguard two chimera with twin flamers 2 sws with flamers and 2 command squads with meltas or plasma.... leave a hundred points more in a 1000 point army
Requizen wrote: How do people value CPs vs Regimental Doctrines?
I have a Brigade currently that is mostly Scions but with vehicles in FA and HS. I can keep it together and give the Vehicles a good Regiment (thinking Catachan or Valhalla), but then the Scions and Tauroxes get nothing.
I could split them into 1/2 Battalion(s) and a Spearhead, but then I'm giving up CPs that could be quite useful.
How do you guys value the Tempestus Doctrine? It feels really unreliable to me, but occasional extra Plasma shots or Taurox shooting could be quite useful as well.
Something else to consider here - how many uses do you have for CPs?
I ask because, if you're just using vehicles, then the Catachan and Valhallan Stratagems are both useless. And the MT stratagem is rather niche, to say the least. If you take Grand Strategist, then you can potentially stretch your CPs further still, and the Aquila has a good chance of getting you more.
So, it really depends on how many CPs you think you'll need for rerolls or universal Stratagems. If you don't tend to use many, I'd split them to get the MT doctrine. If you use them a lot, keep your army the way it is.
It really depends on your regiment(s) army type, heck even the weapons you use. I know I burn through strategems something fierce, if nothing more for the basic rerolls and 2cp insane bravery. Add "fight to the death", Take cover, combine squads, and even potentially the counterattack one from the main rulebook, and I can potentially burn through 10+ points by the end of turn 1.
I feel like even vehicles would still use a few a turn. Nowhere near as much as an infantry list but hey, extra CP's never hurt.
I'm running Cadian and they will always burn 2 per turn on overlapping fields of fire.
Anyone feeling a need to change list setups with all the new Faction bonuses? With so many -1s to hit, extra armor, and CP cost Deep Strikes, mass artillery feels like it'll soon be a bit out of fashion to me. Will there be more of a switch to mobile, decentralized armies? Scions already do this sort of.
Requizen wrote: Anyone feeling a need to change list setups with all the new Faction bonuses? With so many -1s to hit, extra armor, and CP cost Deep Strikes, mass artillery feels like it'll soon be a bit out of fashion to me. Will there be more of a switch to mobile, decentralized armies? Scions already do this sort of.
Well, I don't use artillery-based armies anyway, so I'm probably okay on that front.
In terms of decentralised armies, I made this recently:
The most expensive squad is the 88pt MT Command Squad, and most of the others are around 50pts.
Basically, I've got 3 pseudo-platoons, each with:
3 Infantry Squads (one with just a Plasma Pistol)
2 HWSs
1 Company Commander
1 Astropath or Primaris Psyker
The HWSs will stay at the back, whilst the rest advance (and I do mean Advance ) up the field.
I've got 3 Scout Sentinels to act as mobile turrets (as well as moving to limit Deep Strike and such).
Then there's a Scion Squad and Scion Command Squad to deep strike anywhere.
Finally, there are 4 SWSs who can all outflank (one via the Dagger, 3 via the Tallarn stratagem), and the Company Commander with the dagger can give rerolls to 2 of them.
I tested out my Catachan Cyclops and heavy mortars for the first time since the codex dropped. The cyclops being able to innately reroll 1 of the 2d6 was extremely solid. I find they are a great deterrent and psychological tool. I think they're worth it for 40pts for sure. I wouldn't pay any more than that though.
The heavy mortars are totally more than they should be, especially considering the Earthshaker Platforms are similarly priced and those can be Cadian and still do well with 2d6 pick highest. I got the heavy mortars within range of Harker and picked off T5 heavy infantry. It was pretty solid due to rerolling that d6 shots for being Catachan. I wish the mortars were a bit cheaper and I'd probably keep using them since they are cool looking and fun.
I haven't had a chance to fully delve into the Errata. What is the current standing on whether a MT Vanguard detachment loses the MT doctrine if it contains non MT units (in my case two Astropaths)?
I want to run a Tempestor Prime with a MT command squad, two astropaths and a Taurox prime as a vanguard. I was mostly hoping to get some free out of turn shooting from the Taurox Prime if anyone was foolish enough to deep strike close to it. Hopefully the Errata clarified this.
CaptainO wrote: I haven't had a chance to fully delve into the Errata. What is the current standing on whether a MT Vanguard detachment loses the MT doctrine if it contains non MT units (in my case two Astropaths)?
I want to run a Tempestor Prime with a MT command squad, two astropaths and a Taurox prime as a vanguard. I was mostly hoping to get some free out of turn shooting from the Taurox Prime if anyone was foolish enough to deep strike close to it. Hopefully the Errata clarified this.
What do the Astropaths do in the detachment?
EDIT: Oh wait you need them to finish the Vanguard. Derp. I think it's fine, uncertain.
CaptainO wrote: I haven't had a chance to fully delve into the Errata. What is the current standing on whether a MT Vanguard detachment loses the MT doctrine if it contains non MT units (in my case two Astropaths)?
I want to run a Tempestor Prime with a MT command squad, two astropaths and a Taurox prime as a vanguard. I was mostly hoping to get some free out of turn shooting from the Taurox Prime if anyone was foolish enough to deep strike close to it. Hopefully the Errata clarified this.
It says that Astropaths and such don't count against you in terms of getting a doctrine, so I don't see why that wouldn't apply for an MT detachment.
gendoikari87 wrote: Thinking about running vanguard with units divided like this:
Chimera w 2x heavy flamer
Special weapons squad with 3x flamers
Command squad with 4x plasma
Total: 230
Back a few of these up with either anti tank kitted leman russes or a mechanicus spearhead detachment with neutronagers
Thoughts?
Your Vanguard is missing an HQ choice and a third Elite choice.
That aside, I'd be much more tempted to just stick with Special Weapon squads (giving one or both of them plasma).
At the very least, I'd lean towards putting plasma mostly on SWSs over Command Squads, since the latter have to pay twice as much for their plasmaguns (even with BS3+, I don't think it's remotely worth it outside of Scions).
I should note I don’t mean just that for an army just how to organize squads. So the full army would be two of the above two company commanders and three neutronagers with a tech priest in a 1000 point army
Alternatively drop the admech and company commanders add two tank commanders
CaptainO wrote: I was mostly hoping to get some free out of turn shooting from the Taurox Prime if anyone was foolish enough to deep strike close to it. Hopefully the Errata clarified this.
The MT strategem is restricted to infantry, unfortunately.
HQ Tank commander plasmacutioner
Tank commander plasmacutioner
Elite
Special weapons squad with 3 flamers
Special weapons squad with 3flamers
Special weapons squad with 3 Plasma guns
Special weapons squad with 3 Plasma guns
Transport
Chimera twin flamer
Chimera twin flamer
Total: 872
So missing 128 for a 1000 point list. Suggestions?
HQ Tank commander plasmacutioner
Tank commander plasmacutioner
Elite
Special weapons squad with 3 flamers
Special weapons squad with 3flamers
Special weapons squad with 3 Plasma guns
Special weapons squad with 3 Plasma guns
Transport
Chimera twin flamer
Chimera twin flamer
Total: 872
So missing 128 for a 1000 point list. Suggestions?
Suggestions are use Inquisitorial Acolytes. Since you have no commanders, you're not getting orders anyways, and you can give all 6 special weapons, and they still get re-rolls against CHAOS units and PSYKERS (if they're ordo hereticus) so you don't need orders in those games. They can still ride in the chimeras but you'll have 100% special weapons density. The difference in points should be made up though because they are very expensive.
CaptainO wrote: I haven't had a chance to fully delve into the Errata. What is the current standing on whether a MT Vanguard detachment loses the MT doctrine if it contains non MT units (in my case two Astropaths)?
I want to run a Tempestor Prime with a MT command squad, two astropaths and a Taurox prime as a vanguard. I was mostly hoping to get some free out of turn shooting from the Taurox Prime if anyone was foolish enough to deep strike close to it. Hopefully the Errata clarified this.
It says that Astropaths and such don't count against you in terms of getting a doctrine, so I don't see why that wouldn't apply for an MT detachment.
The rules for MT detachment in the codex stated that they didn't receive the benefits "unless every unit in that detachment is from the MT" which was different to the section on Advisors and Auxilla (both page 132) There was a discussion on this thread prior to the errata's release but I haven't seen anything that removed the ambiguity. Did you see something?
CaptainO wrote: I was mostly hoping to get some free out of turn shooting from the Taurox Prime if anyone was foolish enough to deep strike close to it. Hopefully the Errata clarified this.
The MT strategem is restricted to infantry, unfortunately.
Just saw that. This pretty much removes my whole desire to form an MT detachment. Pity. Is anyone still using Taurox Primes rather than a Leman Russ since the grinding advance rule came in? Points difference is minimal for much the greater survivability of the Russ. T8 and W12 v T6 and W10. The Taurox Prime transport ability is nigh on useless to me as I deep strike my MT units.
The rules for MT detachment in the codex stated that they didn't receive the benefits "unless every unit in that detachment is from the MT" which was different to the section on Advisors and Auxilla (both page 132) There was a discussion on this thread prior to the errata's release but I haven't seen anything that removed the ambiguity. Did you see something?
It comes down to this: Militarum Tempestus says "every unit must be MT," Auxilia and Advisors says "does not prevent others from gaining Doctrines." It just depends on which rule you think supersedes the other.
However, consider that Taurox Primes can transport <Officio Prefectus> models, MT have a strongly established relationship with Valkyries, and that Stormtroopers, Commissars, and Valkyries have been sold as bundles together. I think that paints a pretty clear picture as to which rule is supposed to take priority here. It would be very odd if the Start Collecting! Militarum Tempestus bundle came with a model that caused you to lose your Doctrine.
CaptainO wrote: Is anyone still using Taurox Primes rather than a Leman Russ since the grinding advance rule came in? Points difference is minimal for much the greater survivability of the Russ. T8 and W12 v T6 and W10. The Taurox Prime transport ability is nigh on useless to me as I deep strike my MT units.
There are a few things I like about the Taurox Prime compared to the Leman Russ, but the biggest one is mobility. To benefit from GA you need to slowly advance (or stay still), which limits what the vehicle can do. The Taurox can either sit still and can pretend to be a Predator, or it can zip around and pretend to be a Venom.
Personally I like playing a fast-moving army, which both MT vehicles (Taurox and Valkyrie) compliment. Given we typically play Maelstrom games, the Taurox has been a real boon for me (gatling cannon and volley gun setup especially).
CaptainO wrote: Is anyone still using Taurox Primes rather than a Leman Russ since the grinding advance rule came in? Points difference is minimal for much the greater survivability of the Russ. T8 and W12 v T6 and W10. The Taurox Prime transport ability is nigh on useless to me as I deep strike my MT units.
There are a few things I like about the Taurox Prime compared to the Leman Russ, but the biggest one is mobility. To benefit from GA you need to slowly advance (or stay still), which limits what the vehicle can do. The Taurox can either sit still and can pretend to be a Predator, or it can zip around and pretend to be a Venom.
Personally I like playing a fast-moving army, which both MT vehicles (Taurox and Valkyrie) compliment. Given we typically play Maelstrom games, the Taurox has been a real boon for me (gatling cannon and volley gun setup especially).
Tauroxes are also cheaper, can be taken in greater numbers, and are unlocked anyways in a stormtrooper detachment without screwing over your special ability like a Leman russ would. I could be wrong, but I also think two tauroxes compared to a Leman Russ punisher is slightly more durable due to the sheer amount of wounds. Not to mention higher BS. I'm not much for mathammer though.
Two gatling primes for example compare almost perfectly pointswise to a Punisher tank commander. That's a pretty good comparison to let you decide what matters more to you. There's a laundry list of pros and cons between the two so it's really going to come down to what kind of army you're trying to build, I can see reasons to bring either the primes or the leman russ.
Used a baneblade for the first time ever tonight. He put in some serious work. Using the overwatch on 5+ Stratagem + Vengeance for Cadia is probably OP when used on it haha. Especially if I had taken sponsons.
I'm really starting to develop a general TAC list. A BN with 2 COs, infantry 4 squads, Command sqd w/banner, Rough Riders, a Spearhead with a Russ CDR, 3 Russes, a Spearhead with Basilisk, Wyvern, and HWS, Vanguard with Celestine, Eversor, Bullgryn + Valkyrie, and Astropath.
It's got enough chaff to blunt most forces smites and anti troop firepower long enough until I can start steam rolling. And I just drop the Bullgryn on a far obj or attack their rear lines along with the Assassin, rough riders, Celestine, etc. It's done very well thus far.
so, several games with guard codex done. Not doing very well so far . I would really like to know how do you deal with:
1) very fast close combat armies? (jetbikes, fast orks/chaos/other stuff)
2) armies with -1 and more to hit debuff (lots of them out there now)
3) big bastards (roboute, celestine, morty, magnus)
I dont really know how to counter close combat guys because of their ability to lock multiple units, kill or criple them and use close combat movement to lock the second line of my men or tanks. What worked for you so far? Beeing curious.
Just want to add that I only play low points battles for now (about 1000 points).
1) As catchan I normaly rely on my higher strength and vicious traps. Outside of them, I'll buy some extra squads with flamers. Between the flamer and the Sargent chainsword, they remain a viable threat in overwatch and melee. The goal isn't so much to out melee them as to bog them down in one squad after another while your big guns do work. Put your normal infantry about 3 inches behind the flamer squads and the opponent might have to wait until turn 3 before they can get through your lines.
2) Salamander Command Vehicles and Wyverns. The Salamander can negate the -1 to hit and wyverns can take advantage of ariel spotter for shenagians.
3) Still working on the primarchs. They are just so damn point efficent that every faction seems to eitehr need to use them or build to stop them. Some people go the PUnsiher canon route , but I prefer the Vanquishers. FW Stygies vanguisher+Salamander Command would be a nice combination. Or tank commander vanquisher + Salamander.
I've heard that magnus fears multiple lascanon HWTs, but Mort would eat through them like candy. The only solution to Guliman seems to be to ignore him and kill the rest of the damn army since he's almost immortal.
To avoid close combat locking, put units in a line about 6 inches from each other. Even gaunts cant consolidate that far, but you can fall back a couple inches and have both your survivors and the backline squad fighting.
Thanks a lot for sharing your thoughts on the matter! I really appreciate that.
I just need to mention we do not play with Forge World models (we prefer "basic" GW stuff, the game is very expensive even without Forge Worlds "resin fee" ).
I do play Cadians, btw. My list is ussually conscripts up front, backed by few units of upgraded infantry squads (plasma, lascanon) and two Leman Russes (one commander, one normal, using battle canon/executioner with bolters or plasma) or Artilery pieces (manticore, basilisk).
Lothar wrote: Thanks a lot for sharing your thoughts on the matter! I really appreciate that.
I just need to mention we do not play with Forge World models (we prefer "basic" GW stuff, the game is very expensive even without Forge Worlds "resin fee" ).
I do play Cadians, btw. My list is ussually conscripts up front, backed by few units of upgraded infantry squads (plasma, lascanon) and two Leman Russes (one commander, one normal, using battle canon/executioner with bolters or plasma) or Artilery pieces (manticore, basilisk).
For the Salamander you can make your own from a Chimera kit and some spare bits:
I've found that most GW stuff can be modded into forgeworld so long as you stay out of the 200+ dollar range.
That's a nifty conversion, but I don't know how impressed I am with the salamander, honestly. Improving to-hit for vehicles is pretty awesome, but it's about half the price of another tank. I guess it could be nasty pairing up with a superheavy. It is one of the only ways we can deal with the -1 to hit problem though. My primary opponent is Eldar, and it almost irritates me enough to put together some Sabre searchlights, but I haven't because I don't feel like I need them against anyone else. Maybe some day.
So I’ve tried mathhammering battle cannon and multi melta leman russes against plasmacutioners and I can’t really tell which is better they’re so close. Thoughts? I’m tempted to bc because they look better but plasmacutioners I could magnetize into punishers as well and there’s fw bc turrets that are sweet for either option. Thoughts?
I use Heavy bolters, but the extra armor penetration of plasma is good. Multi-meltas are an extra 10 pts over plasma and are only really useful if you are within 12 inches of the enemy. They are only slighter better than the plasma sponsons at range.
If your leman russ is within 12 inches of the enemy than something is going wrong.
I don't see a whole lot of Girlyback razor lists in my area, but I honestly can't think of anything that could deal with this. Can Eldar get any better than a -2 to hit modifier? Because that could be annoying, but I honestly think I have the bullets to deal with it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm trying to decide if it's worth it to drop something to work in a command squad with banner or two. Alternatively, I could add a third detachment and toss a few inquisitors in there, but since I'm going Mordian, I'm already halfway there.
I don't see a whole lot of Girlyback razor lists in my area, but I honestly can't think of anything that could deal with this. Can Eldar get any better than a -2 to hit modifier? Because that could be annoying, but I honestly think I have the bullets to deal with it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm trying to decide if it's worth it to drop something to work in a command squad with banner or two. Alternatively, I could add a third detachment and toss a few inquisitors in there, but since I'm going Mordian, I'm already halfway there.
Some nice parts. I'd drop the plasma pistols on the sargents. Between the limited range and chance of accidentally -1 your leadership on rolling 1s and blowing the poor bastard up. I'd drop them to chainsword/las pistol and include a special weapon squad instead. Stormtrooper is nice, but I'm not certain you are allowed to take 2 special weapons in a standard squad of 5 models.
Some nice parts. I'd drop the plasma pistols on the sargents. Between the limited range and chance of accidentally -1 your leadership on rolling 1s and blowing the poor bastard up. I'd drop them to chainsword/las pistol and include a special weapon squad instead. Stormtrooper is nice, but I'm not certain you are allowed to take 2 special weapons in a standard squad of 5 models.
I've had the plasma pistols work out pretty well for me in the past, though that was back when we still had effective commissars, so leadership mattered a lot less.
My concern about the SWS is that I kinda lack a delivery mechanism for them. I'm not opposed to the idea. Just trying to figure out how they work with the rest of the list.
I think if using special weapons squads it makes sense to go all in or not to use any. Whenever I've used 4 or 5 plasma SWSs they just get gunned down first.
I could see a cadian list with the relic and 20 or so plasma SWSs working out really nicely if you have the plasma available haha
ChargerIIC wrote: I use Heavy bolters, but the extra armor penetration of plasma is good. Multi-meltas are an extra 10 pts over plasma and are only really useful if you are within 12 inches of the enemy. They are only slighter better than the plasma sponsons at range.
Using Pask, (as Cadian, so rerolling ones to hit), Plasma sponsons will do 3.2 damage VS another Russ. 4 damage if he gives himself the order to reroll number of shots.
MM sponsons will do 3.4 damage at long range, 4.3 at short range.
With a regular tank commander, using the reroll 1's order (but not the Cadian specific order to reroll shots), MM will do 3.4 at short range, 2.7 at long range, and Plasma Cannons at high power will do 2.5 damage.
So the difference is not that great. Both Plasma Cannon and Multimelta sponsons are pretty pricey, so I would reserve them for tanks with improved BS, like tank commanders and Pask, to get the most out of them.
Personally I don't like the multimeltas. The short range doesn't jive with the platform (which mostly has long range guns and its move-and-shoot special rule doesn't apply to the sponsons), especially for the damage reroll, while the plasma cannons give you more range, the same max potential damage, roughly the same average damage, more shots for use against smaller units, and they're cheaper than the MM's.
I would concur on reserving their use for Tank Commanders, otherwise I think Heavy Bolters are the way to go and are cheap enough to always be an "auto include" on most Russ tanks, primarily because of that AP-1, they're really useful for taking that last wound off something or killing off that last dude in a unit. If you're just shooting at something like a Tac marine squad with a Battlecannon, those 16pts basically increases your damage output by 40% (assuming a hull HB as well).
I think the only way multi meltas are any good is on a Tallarn Demolisher that is outflanking. That way you at least mitigate the range and moving and firing at full effect while preventing enemy from alpha striking it.
What's everyone's thoughts on the FW Leman Russ Annihilator and Stygies Vanquisher? I took a peak at the battlescribe stats for them and they look fun if maybe not the most competitive choices but I know from experience Battlescribe often gets rules wrong.
For example, it was claiming the Stygies has a coax stormbolter but on the model it appears to have a coax heavy stubber. It also claimed it got an additional trait where if it stood still your BS improved by 1, yet the codex has no such rule.
As for the Annihilator, it's just more lascannons. But being able to pump out 5 lascannons from a Russ a turn sounded too fun to not try at least once, like an exterminator but actually useful. I'm sure that we have more efficient AT out there but anything that helps get more lascannons on the table is a good thing in my book. My lists are primarily infantry and lack punch past 24" in many cases, so the Annihilator seemed like just what the doctor ordered.
It also appeared that neither of these variants could be taken by a commander, meaning they would have to be regular tanks. Not a big deal, I'm not too worried about it and I have an executioner I always take as my command tank, but it seemed odd. I really just want them because they look cool and my friend was making a FW order, as opposed to filling a critical part of my list.
MrMoustaffa wrote: What's everyone's thoughts on the FW Leman Russ Annihilator and Stygies Vanquisher? I took a peak at the battlescribe stats for them and they look fun if maybe not the most competitive choices but I know from experience Battlescribe often gets rules wrong.
The Annihilator is currently the best anti-tank Russ, bar none. It and the Conqueror are probably the two best variants available right now.
The "+1 to hit while immobile" rule is actually on the Stygies Vanquisher cannon weapon itself, not the Leman Russ profile, so that's probably why you missed it. The model previously had options for co-axial storm bolter or heavy stubber, but for some reason, the latter is no longer an option this edition. It's an okay variant, held back mostly by the fact that the Vanquisher Cannon profile is just plain bad.
The Annihilator is ok. It's great getting those STR9 hits, but it's so few shots that it doesn't really ever get that alpha strike you are hoping for.
I'm purchasing a stygies vanquisher turret and might buy a second to convert to a conqueror. It's a small point cost, but being able to shoot at range and then up the accuracy as I get approached is pretty good. The vanquisher has the same problem in number of shots, but you only really need one to hit.
MrMoustaffa wrote: For example, it was claiming the Stygies has a coax stormbolter but on the model it appears to have a coax heavy stubber. It also claimed it got an additional trait where if it stood still your BS improved by 1, yet the codex has no such rule.
Stygies and Gryphonne Vanquishers have coax Storm Bolters, Ryza pattern has a coax Heavy Stubber.
The rules for these are not in the Codex, but in the FWIA index. Conquerors and Stygies Vanquishers have the Storm Bolter specifically as a coax weapon, while in the Krieg Index, the Krieg Leman Russ has a coax rule that mentions both the stubber and storm bolter.
Not sure if limiting non-Krieg Vanquisher/Comquerors to just having the Storm Bolter as a coax with no option for a Heavy Stubber is intentional or a typical FW typo.
Im a huge fan of the Annihilator, a great all-rounder when given HB sponsons, particularly in a Cadian army with the reroll 1's. If they could be made tank commanders they'd be fantastic, but alas.
Vaktathi wrote: Im a huge fan of the Annihilator, a great all-rounder when given HB sponsons, particularly in a Cadian army with the reroll 1's. If they could be made tank commanders they'd be fantastic, but alas.
I'm a huge fan though, they're pretty sweet.
Ah ok, I was wondering if I was reading that right that you couldn't take the variants as commanders.
Also funny little aside, the Regimental Standard today hinted potentially that Marbo was doing something somewhere. I'm wondering if Marbo is coming back in 8th through chapter approved or something. It's a really weak theory but it's the only reason I can think of them censoring the 3rd theory and it mentioning Catachan. It'll be interesting to see how they would do Marbo for 8th, depending on his rules and abilities he could be pretty scary for close combat and assassinating targets now (if his rules are similar to 7th and before)
I think somewhere a GW writer is frantically looking over his catachan article, trying to figure out how people got 'marbo' from 'catachan' while his bosses can be heard screaming down the hall.
ChargerIIC wrote: I think somewhere a GW writer is frantically looking over his catachan article, trying to figure out how people got 'marbo' from 'catachan' while his bosses can be heard screaming down the hall.
Because the actions described in the article are word for word what Marbo is known for. I'm just going to repost what I just put in the news thread. Simply put, the article couldn't hint Marbo any harder unless they started sneaking Rambo quotes in
Spoiler:
Cream Tea wrote: Please forgive my ignorance of mon-keigh matters, but shouldn't this guy be dead by now? The 8th ed time skip wasn't that long by Eldar standards, but for non-marine mon-keigh it was.
Not necessarily, rejuvenation drugs are a thing and cause a human to live a few hundred years. A master of stealth like Marbo probably has the ability to either sneak in and grab this kind of thing or just receive it outright due to his incredible career. Doesn't he hold the record for being awarded the highest military award in the Imperium or something like that?
As for his origins, he's supposedly from the Catachan XII originally, the sole survivor of 10 brothers according to my 5th ed codex in front of me. However two weeks later he returns to the lines with the head of the ork warboss, a single bullet hole between its eyes.The codex repeatedly mentions that Marbo is probably no longer sane, his haunting eyes and silent demeanor unnerving even the most hardened of soldiers. It goes on to state him ambushing and destroying entire armored columns with well laid traps, taking entire command posts, assassinating entire enemy command structures, and even hunting Lichtors. The descriptions of the bodies in the Regimental standard article are absolutely well within his M.O.
In the 3rd edition (at least I think it's 3rd edition) Catachan codex that I also have, we have this lovely little line
The colonel stepped up to Trooper Marbo. Marbo's eyes were empty again, like they always were when he wasn't stalking through the jungle or carving his name in some enemy's internal organs. Inwardly the Colonel sighed - there was something wrong with this boy: blood and death had warped him to the point where he could only be normal with a blade in his hand.
Once again the Colonel pronounced the well rehearsed words. "For valour in battle and service to the Emperor of unbounded courage you are hereby awarded the Star of Terra, bear it with pride that you may inspire others to worthy endeavour in the service of Man." The colonel completed the dedication in a single breath before pinning the medal to Marbo's chest.
This one was for wiping out a whole squad of aliens, killing their commander, and capturing their command post single-handed. He leaned closer to Marbo and asked "You want me to look after it for you son? Like the rest?"
Marbo nodded solemnly.
"Alright son, you can go." The words had barely left the Colonel's lips before Sly Marbo had plunged back into the jungle as smoothly as a fish slipping into a stream.
So yeah, option 3 is absolutely the most likely, as the article itself states. Marbo has had a rough life and this kind of grisly aftermath is par for the course for him. I know anyone who used him in 5th can confirm that, Marbo may have been a bit unpredictable but he was a well loved model in almost every guard player's collection and the codex has been worse off ever since his absence.
EDIT: And it's now confirmed he's back! Just go check the news and rumors thread. Can't wait to see his rules
In regards to MM on Russes, I can’t help but keep going back to the idea of a unit of 2 Conquerors, both with MM sponsons using the Tallarn stratagem to outflank into melta range of big targets.
Now… I fully expect them to pretty much just die straight after, or be tied up for the rest of the game just falling back, but, it’s a potentially very nasty strike from reserve when you need something/somethings killing in 1 go.
Let's see his rules he was only really a demo charge delivery system. He was never great at memes and an ok short range shooting. However this is just another bonus to the cstachan regiment doctrine as the best doctrine.
Yeah he wasn't really a great at damage or particularly tough but his various datasheets have usually revolved around setting up battlefield booby traps and scout moving.
Well Marbo wouldn't be hard to add to a list that isn't catachans. With IG you're probably going to bring a bunch of HQ's anyways, so take a supreme command detachment for some primaris pyskers and have marbo be the only thing in the baby detachment with a regiment trait. It'd take very little "tax" to take him, and that's if you weren't already taking some sort of catachan artillery or tanks to begin with in a separate formation.
If his rules are even remotely decent he'll be a good pick for guard. We lack things that pop up on the opponents side of the board and serve as a distraction besides Stormtroopers. Even if his rules are just popping up to stab something he'll be able to cause a fair bit of ruckus before he's put down. If he has his original style of placement he'd even make a decent counterattack element you could hold back and then drop into your line wherever it's hit hardest, to say deal with a squad of terminators or something.
Anybody thought of running Plasma Scion squads in Centaur transports?
Been toying around with a list of 5 man Scion squads tooling around in Centaurs shooting plasma out of the top, and having some Melta Command Squads deep strike in to pop tanks.
I find the Centaur interesting since it is only 54 points, with 2 Heavy Stubbers and a Smoke Launcher. It has slightly worse Toughness than a Chimera, 3 less wounds, but keeps the 3+ save and doesn't degrade when it takes damage, so it will always be moving 12". It also looks easy to use 1/48 Tamiya WWII Universal Transport II's as them since that is what the Centaur is based on, and appears to be a very similar size.
Seems good, but I'd put the Command Squad in the Centaur, since the Plasma Scions lose nothing by deepstriking, while your CS could get in Melta range.
Bobthehero wrote: Seems good, but I'd put the Command Squad in the Centaur, since the Plasma Scions lose nothing by deepstriking, while your CS could get in Melta range.
I was thinking about it, the only thing I keep thinking about is that the Centaurs are likely to get anything of value in 6" Turn 1, so it seemed better to drop Plasma squads in there, and use the consistent speed of the Centaurs to just drive around and Plasma the opponents infantry to death, while sticking out of charge range for most units.
With the Centaurs only being T6, it seems worth dropping 16 Melta guns near my opponents vehicles to try and destroy them as soon as possible to keep the Scions Centaur mounts alive. The list I was thinking of has 10 Centaurs with 8 Plasma Scion squads and 2 Plasma Command Squads, and 4 Melta Command Squads to deep strike in.
Automatically Appended Next Post: One thing I also just thought of, can the Scions still shoot if they are armed with Meltas and the Centaur advances? That could also change things a bit.
Okay so there's slow grow league starting up locally. Been thinking of attending it to inspire finishing up my IG models(plus maybe repaint vehicles now that I know how to strip paint from plastic dirt easy).
Anyway first scenario is giving me headache(no idea about future ones). 30 power level(each game then adds further 15 and last game, 90, has also 2000 point limit) and seems like IG's worst nightmare.
Both players first put objective on their side of the board(board being 50-50). Then units are deployed alternatively with _3"_ gap between each other O_o. So if he deploys something on dead center line he's projecting quite far and even if I put something there he's just 3" away.
To make matters worse it's 12" MAX range on weapons. From turn 2 onwards on 4+ it keeps growing by 6" but with alpha strike 40k not expecting that to be much of a help.
5 turns, 3+ goes to 6, 4+ goes to 7th and then ends. Win comes if you hold both objectives(at which point game ends regardless of turn) or wipeout.
That's like...Ummm...How am I supposed to deal with this? Smart opponent puts up objective on his far edge making me go quite a long way to get there. I'm struggling to even get ONE round of shooting before enemy hits my lines. I don't even know during deployment who gets first turn as that's dice-off.
Don't have much in terms of h2h ability...Much as in not at all. Yarrick is best close combat tool I have. No allies as it's 1 patrol detachment only.
Was planning company commander, pask with punisher and heavy bolters, 3 infantry squads(weapons undecided. Have autocannons, missile launchers, lascannons, plasma guns and flamers though unless I get busy painting only autocannons and flamers...) and either hellhound or bane wolf(short range isn't going to be hindrance in this game...). Use infantry squads on layered defence, try to use vehicles to hurt enemy and maybe sneak up into enemy objective if he leaves it lightly guarded(hopefully before my defences collapse)
Urgh.
edit: One thought I played around was vendetta with squad inside but problem being that soaks up tons of points and if opponent has big infantry squad that covers objective well. Vendetta isn't infantry killer and don't have anything that puts serious enough firepower to clear inside either. Best I can come up with this idea would be company commander, 2 special weapon teams(one flamers, one plasma), 3 infantry squads, heavy weapon squads and vendetta.
If that were me, I'd just run as many basic infantry models as you can put on the table. Either conscripts or infantry squads with plasma guns and plasma pistols. Mass infantry can blunt or damage CC units and then you can step back an inch and use GBITF to rapid fire into the enemy.
a) Not bothering. Valid idea but then again would give me regular games which would be nice and I don't know REST of the scenarios are as bad as it is. Of course skipping first game and playing others would be valid option but apart from paying same entrance fee for less games guess I could at least use the first game as a scout to what armies there are and what's the general power level going to be around.
b) Primaris psykers: 1 or 2 max(patrol has just 2 HQ) depending on do I want company commander or not. 1 is option. Don't have more models, not planning to buy(and seeing game is on next tuesday don't get it in time anyway...) and would be struggling to paint(base in particular takes time. And yes apart from me being painted only league itself is painted and WYSIWYG only).
Mass infantry...I have about 26 lasgun guys plus various special weapons etc(had 27, used one to test paint stripping test for plastic figuring out I can live without that for a while, THEN got inspiration to dust of IG and then found out about league) so about best I can do is squad of conscripts and regular squad or 3 squads of regular. Guess 3 regular squads for heavy weapons would work.
Again spamming more runs into two issues. Lack of models, lack of foc slots. I could run 4, 5 squads but that patrol detachment is REALLY tight for IG!
Don't have anything but command squads for elite slot.
The vendetta idea would actually have that 3x10. One squad(with flamer) at front to blunt charge, then 2 more with plasma/flamer(depending on what I get painted and ready in time) and autocannon(I suspect I don't get lascannons ready in this short period) and heavy weapon squad pepper enemy. Meanwhile vendetta aims for getting that enemy objective. He MUST keep stuff on his objective or vendetta could give me turn 1 victory right there by dropping 2 squads into the objective right away. Hopefully with -1 to hit and immunity to non-fly CC(of which I hopefully dont' face) that's tough enough bugger I can use it to clear landing zone enough for 3 flamers and 3 plasma to sort it out.
a) Not bothering. Valid idea but then again would give me regular games which would be nice and I don't know REST of the scenarios are as bad as it is. Of course skipping first game and playing others would be valid option but apart from paying same entrance fee for less games guess I could at least use the first game as a scout to what armies there are and what's the general power level going to be around.
b) Primaris psykers: 1 or 2 max(patrol has just 2 HQ) depending on do I want company commander or not. 1 is option. Don't have more models, not planning to buy(and seeing game is on next tuesday don't get it in time anyway...) and would be struggling to paint(base in particular takes time. And yes apart from me being painted only league itself is painted and WYSIWYG only).
Mass infantry...I have about 26 lasgun guys plus various special weapons etc(had 27, used one to test paint stripping test for plastic figuring out I can live without that for a while, THEN got inspiration to dust of IG and then found out about league) so about best I can do is squad of conscripts and regular squad or 3 squads of regular. Guess 3 regular squads for heavy weapons would work.
Again spamming more runs into two issues. Lack of models, lack of foc slots. I could run 4, 5 squads but that patrol detachment is REALLY tight for IG!
Don't have anything but command squads for elite slot.
The vendetta idea would actually have that 3x10. One squad(with flamer) at front to blunt charge, then 2 more with plasma/flamer(depending on what I get painted and ready in time) and autocannon(I suspect I don't get lascannons ready in this short period) and heavy weapon squad pepper enemy. Meanwhile vendetta aims for getting that enemy objective. He MUST keep stuff on his objective or vendetta could give me turn 1 victory right there by dropping 2 squads into the objective right away. Hopefully with -1 to hit and immunity to non-fly CC(of which I hopefully dont' face) that's tough enough bugger I can use it to clear landing zone enough for 3 flamers and 3 plasma to sort it out.
Got any Bullgryns? You could try forming defensive line with those. They're really meaty. Use Astropath to buff their saves and another to give -1 to hit.
Fueli wrote: Got any Bullgryns? You could try forming defensive line with those. They're really meaty. Use Astropath to buff their saves and another to give -1 to hit.
Alas no :(
My IG army is basically leftover from 7th ed where I didn't have time/money to enlarge it either. What I have is basically:
Enough for 5 squads of infantry. Currently only heavy weapons I have painted(remember painted only) is autocannons. Flamers only for special weapons
4 officers
Enough flamers I think for 1 or 2 command squads
sentinel w/autocannon(other weapons wait magnet+painting)
3 sponson leman russ, 2 without sponsons. These are the basic 4
1 russ with sponsons that can take demolisher, punisher or executioner(not 100% sure on painted status)
1 of above with pask upgrade
3 hellhounds/variants. One has multi-melta as hull weapon
manticore
baneblade/stormhammer(this, hellhounds and pile of russes due to the big combo box that had quite a discount)
2 vendetta
yarric
2 chimnera
primaris psyker+regimental advisors
I have unassembled or unpainted:(getting motivated to do these rather than 30k is primary reason for joining this!)
enough basic grunts to form up 2 more squads
30 basic troopers I was planning to paint into conscripts
chimera & basic russ box
wyvern
commissar
So I'm somewhat struct on the more esoteric stuff. Was planning to further this by the deep striking troops I can't spell, bullgryns and maybe valkyrie plus another heavy weapon box(mortars) with maybe box of infantry to get even MORE heavy weapons. But no way nothing of that can come for first game or even really first 3 games.
First game scenario is this nutter, no idea about future ones. As said 30 PL game with 15 more per game. First 2 with 1 patrol(second is REALLY tight to fit! 45 PL to one patrol...), then you get battalion and then even brigade though only 1 detachment max.
Looking at how expensive other IG/AM characters are, my hopes are high. He will be directly comparing up against an Eversor however, so fingers crossed he can make it in.
I wonder if they'll bring him out with a unique stratagem.. the comments about improvised explosives (rather than demo charges) suggests re-usability!
Bring a Baneblade to the special league scenario. 1 28 power tank. If the enemy charges it, you blow the defensive gunners stratagem and get a free shooting phase.
Then, when they lock you up, who cares? It isn't like the Baneblade can't shoot.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Bring a Baneblade to the special league scenario. 1 28 power tank. If the enemy charges it, you blow the defensive gunners stratagem and get a free shooting phase.
Then, when they lock you up, who cares? It isn't like the Baneblade can't shoot.
Sure. Just explain how to fit it to single patrol detachment
Unit1126PLL wrote: Bring a Baneblade to the special league scenario. 1 28 power tank. If the enemy charges it, you blow the defensive gunners stratagem and get a free shooting phase.
Then, when they lock you up, who cares? It isn't like the Baneblade can't shoot.
I recall this being discussed before but the Baneblades can fire overwatch multiple times, right? Maybe not the sponsons once it's locked up, but the main weapons can always fire?
Unit1126PLL wrote: Bring a Baneblade to the special league scenario. 1 28 power tank. If the enemy charges it, you blow the defensive gunners stratagem and get a free shooting phase.
Then, when they lock you up, who cares? It isn't like the Baneblade can't shoot.
I recall this being discussed before but the Baneblades can fire overwatch multiple times, right? Maybe not the sponsons once it's locked up, but the main weapons can always fire?
All of its weapons can fire - but only the sponson guns can target units within 1".
That's why popping defensive gunners is so valuable - it lasts for the phase and so every unit that charges the behemoth gets shot on a 5+. If it's in its last damage bracket, you actually hit harder than you would in your shooting phase.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Bring a Baneblade to the special league scenario. 1 28 power tank. If the enemy charges it, you blow the defensive gunners stratagem and get a free shooting phase.
Then, when they lock you up, who cares? It isn't like the Baneblade can't shoot.
Sure. Just explain how to fit it to single patrol detachment
Sorry. The patrol detachment restriction was buried in the middle of the post while the power level limits were in the first sentence, so I assumed that was the only restriction.
I'm sad to see narrative play exclude narrative players.
I recall this being discussed before but the Baneblades can fire overwatch multiple times, right? Maybe not the sponsons once it's locked up, but the main weapons can always fire?
All of its weapons can fire - but only the sponson guns can target units within 1".
That's why popping defensive gunners is so valuable - it lasts for the phase and so every unit that charges the behemoth gets shot on a 5+. If it's in its last damage bracket, you actually hit harder than you would in your shooting phase.
That's why I asked. I used Vengeance for Cadia + Defensive Gunners and obliterated mortarion and typhus and it felt OP.
tneva82 wrote: Good question and affects my game due to vendetta. But don't see why not. Hope they can or my flamer squad is less usefull!
My thoughts exactly. I don't run chimeras and play with two Valkyries and recently put together two command squads with flamers with the intention of dropping them off from the airplanes.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Bring a Baneblade to the special league scenario. 1 28 power tank. If the enemy charges it, you blow the defensive gunners stratagem and get a free shooting phase.
Then, when they lock you up, who cares? It isn't like the Baneblade can't shoot.
I recall this being discussed before but the Baneblades can fire overwatch multiple times, right? Maybe not the sponsons once it's locked up, but the main weapons can always fire?
All of its weapons can fire - but only the sponson guns can target units within 1".
That's why popping defensive gunners is so valuable - it lasts for the phase and so every unit that charges the behemoth gets shot on a 5+. If it's in its last damage bracket, you actually hit harder than you would in your shooting phase.
Actually, no, a Baneblade can't fire overwatch if there are enemies within 1". A unit can't fire in the shooting phase if there are enemies within 1", and it can't fire overwatch if there are enemies within 1". Those are two seperate limitations. The Steel Behemoth ability overrides the first one, but not the second.
First game scenario is this nutter, no idea about future ones. As said 30 PL game with 15 more per game. First 2 with 1 patrol(second is REALLY tight to fit! 45 PL to one patrol...), then you get battalion and then even brigade though only 1 detachment max.
Whoever organised this mess has clearly never read the astra militarum codex (or doesn't care) - just checked and you can have a guard BRIGADE for 45 PL!
My suggestion would have been to spend a little cash only on plasma or melta dudes and run tallarn infantry with special weapons only. Mix of flamers and plasma or melta. Enough mobility to take objectives and fall back for volley fire and gbitf!, and flexible with no one unit being vital for target saturation. But it looks like the organiser is a nid player and doesn't want anyone stopping their Genestealers from cleaning up... /cynicism
Yeah. That league sounds stupid. I wouldn't even bother playing that trash scenario. The organizer sounds like he got drunk and made up rules for the league, decided it was a good idea while drunk the next day and ran with it.
I would rather play fewer pick up games than that mess.
Ive got news. Conscripts are being nerfed even more, theyre now the same price as an infantry squad guy.. At that point, its getting tough even in fluffy lists... :/
(see the N/R thread about chapter approved, links to an instagram post with pictures of the book.)
In other news, astropaths have doubled in cost, Melatguns and HSVG are more expensive (the former only for 3+ BS units, going up by roughly 40%), Manticores get a 10p increase, same for primaris psykers. Ratlings and Wyvverns also get more expensive for some infathomable reason. Both Taurox versions get an increase, but autocannons and power fists get slightly cheaper, so... yay?
Also, Earthshaker batteries and carriages got nerfed *hard*. Theyre actually more expensive than a standard basilisk now... seems like theyre relegated to fluff choice now. :/
Primaris Psykers is only 46 points, which is a very mild nerf considering what happened to the malefic lord. Perhaps a smite nerf is around the corner.
Conscripts being 4 points per model essentially removes them from the competitive game.
Astropath 30 +15
Conscripts 4 +1
Manticore 135 +10
Primaris 38 + 10
Ratlings 7 +2
Taurox 50 +10
Taurox Prime 80 +15
Wyvern 95 +10
Autocannon 12 -3
Force Stave 8 -4
Hot Shot Volley 7 +1
Meltagun on BS4 12 unchanged
Meltagun on BS3 17 +5
Power Fist 8 -2
Taurox Gatling 20 +2
Tempestus Command Rod 5 +5
Vanquisher Cannon 20 -5
My 2000 point vehicle heavy list went up by 66 and down by 10 net 56 more expensive (cost increases for Pyskers, Manticore, Ratlings, Tempestus and Taurox Prime)
Well, I can safely say that those point changes are about as far from what I saw coming as they could have been.
...what were the issues with meltaguns? I've literally never heard anyone complain about them not costing enough.
There's literally no reason to take conscripts that I can think of at this point. I guess you get slightly better order efficiency, but in turn it's harder to fill out those brigades.
Manticores got hit but basilisks didn't?
Primaris didn't go up as much as I thought it would, and if the force stave is getting cheaper, well, that offsets it even more.
Ratlings were probably too cheap, but they were also not terribly effective. They were still one of the best snipers in the game.
Taurox kinda makes sense, particularly since you're getting some of those points back on cheaper autocannons.
The conscript change is just broke. No reason they should cost the same as infantry. And I already felt the commissar change needed a tweak to not be detrimental to use.
They also did absolutely nothing w Celestine and guiliman.. ok 25 points is 25 points for guiliman but still huge benefit. Celestine is the same price w geminae.
Melta vets are officially shelved as I was still using them but not at this points cost.
Our primarus made it through relatively ok. I'm not sure what benefit we got through this maybe Marbo...
Unit1126PLL wrote: Bring a Baneblade to the special league scenario. 1 28 power tank. If the enemy charges it, you blow the defensive gunners stratagem and get a free shooting phase.
Then, when they lock you up, who cares? It isn't like the Baneblade can't shoot.
I recall this being discussed before but the Baneblades can fire overwatch multiple times, right? Maybe not the sponsons once it's locked up, but the main weapons can always fire?
All of its weapons can fire - but only the sponson guns can target units within 1".
That's why popping defensive gunners is so valuable - it lasts for the phase and so every unit that charges the behemoth gets shot on a 5+. If it's in its last damage bracket, you actually hit harder than you would in your shooting phase.
Actually, no, a Baneblade can't fire overwatch if there are enemies within 1". A unit can't fire in the shooting phase if there are enemies within 1", and it can't fire overwatch if there are enemies within 1". Those are two seperate limitations. The Steel Behemoth ability overrides the first one, but not the second.
Actually, read the rule:
"This unit may fire it's weapons when enemies are within 1"."
If the leaks are anything to go by, it appears whoever is in charge of the Errata is whoever is least familiar with the actual rules, because most of the stuff that got nerfed either got massively overnerfed or wasn't anything anyone imagined would be nerfed, while lots that needed nerfs didn't get it of course...
I'm not sure what they think making Conscripts 4pts is going to do...other than just functionally remove them from the game
tneva82 wrote: Guess got lucky hadn't painted yet conscript. Why take guys that have worse stats and orders only on 4+ when for same price i can take basic troopers.
Edit: don't see conscripts on above pictures. Blind, they are elsewhere ov false rumour?
He posted only the forgeworld Astra Militarum pages. The normal IG stuff is in a different picture in the main thread.
What a bunch of wacky changes. RIP astropath I guess. And meltaguns...huh. Autocannons are priced to where they should be though, so might start bringing a few.
This wasn't entirely what I was expecting. Some sensible stuff, but most of our strongest stuff still seems weirdly intact! I thought they'd use chapter approved to reign in AM a bit so we're not so far above the rest of the armies...
- Conscripts before the other nerfs might have been comparable to infantry squad costs. With them, they're just flat worse. Regular infantry should have gone to 5pts if conscripts went to 4. It'd have been a bit tough, but I wouldn't have been against it. If conscripts are 4pts, they could undo the commissar nerf for us at least - Can't believe they didn't bump up elysians by at least a point (if not two) - 7pt plasma guns still make all other special weapons redundant in my opinion. Melta definitely didn't need a price hike. - Surprised they didn't bump the cost of russes a little. I'd only lost two games of 8th 40k with my competitive foot guard list, and they were both to russ-heavy mech guard - Astropaths and psyker nerf seems fair. It's not going to stop me spamming smite though, so maybe they could have gone further. Astropaths will still have a role using psychic maelstrom/nightshroud/psychic barrier for cheap though, as well as removing cover. - Autocannon buff seems reasonable. Surprised they kept mortars so nice and cheap. - I would only have bumped up ratlings to 8pts per model personally - Manticore and taurox prime nerfs look appropriate.
- 7pt plasma guns still make all other special weapons redundant in my opinion. Melta definitely didn't need a price hike.
To be fair, it probably doesn't help that out other special weapons are garbage, regardless of cost.
- Sniper Rifles are laughable.
- Grenade Launchers are pathetic.
- Flamers have an exceptionally short range on units that probably want to maintain distance for as long as possible.
- Meltas are basically Lascannons with -1S, +1AP and -36" range.
On top of that, we have the fact that Plasma benefits from far more doctrines and such than our other weapons.
- Anything that rerolls 1s.
- The Tallarn Doctrine
- The Armageddon Doctrine
- The Vostroyan Doctrine
- The Storm Trooper Doctrine
- The Storm Trooper deployment
etc.
Now, what do the other weapons benefit from?
Grenade Launchers - the Tallarn Doctrine. And nothing else.
Sniper Rifles - the Vostroyan Doctrine. And nothing else.
Flamers - the Catachan Order.
If you want to make people use other weapons, the solution is not to increase the cost of plasma. The solution is to make the other weapons worth taking in the first place.
- Astropaths and psyker nerf seems fair. It's not going to stop me spamming smite though, so maybe they could have gone further. Astropaths will still have a role using psychic maelstrom/nightshroud/psychic barrier for cheap though, as well as removing cover.
I think the cost of Astropaths was raised too much. I think 20-25pts would have been more reasonable. Also, make their staff cost 0pts. It's just as useless as the laspistol and the 6pts it currently costs is moronic.
Sniper rifles are *ok* if you don't rely on them too much. My cadian sniper CS has been seeing fairly frequent use lately - reroll 1s to hit under cadian doctrine and bs3 is very nice for a unit that on average generates a mortal wound every other turn for 36 points at range 36" on whomever one chooses. With tank commanders as officers they don't even need a foot commander to unlock.
I have found that thinking of flamers as shooting weapons is counterproductive. Planning around them as Close Combat weapons which have overwatch and don't need to roll to charge is much more appropriate - since guard will die in CC anyway, with flamers they actually get to do something.
Grenade Launchers are and always have been crap though. At least they make nice conversion chassis.
Kind of annoyed at the changes to be honest. All this does is limit what guard players are going to take. I was trying to use meltas but not at nearly the cost of a freaking Lascannon. Maybe 1 Astropath is worth it for the removal of cover but I'm questioning their usefulness at this cost. I'd just rather have 10 more guardsmen .... Cyclops went up from 40 to 60. At that point, no longer worth it. I already stopped using Ratlings after my first few games of 8th. I also stopped using conscripts before any nerfs but I'm kind of annoyed that they have yet again messed with them. I'm shocked lol. Wtf is going on? Who is playtesting this stuff and coming up with these changes?! I'm not buying chapter approved because there's just going to be a freaking FAQ in the future changing this gak yet again.
Yeah, the IG codex had increased the Scion plasma cost, but lowered everything else, so I had the chance to not change my list too much, but now I am not sure if I'll be able to keep a 1000 pts list, probably gonna need to get more stuff to reach 1250 pts.
Perhaps the benefit of buffing 30 bodies justifies increasing the model cost of 1ppm.
Personally I would have liked to see the original cost stay at 3ppm with additional models costing 4ppm. But that doesn't fit with the new points layout.
Meltaguns.. Once everything is out, context will likely still make these guns a tempting choice.
Razerous wrote: Perhaps the benefit of buffing 30 bodies justifies increasing the model cost of 1ppm.
I can't possibly see a reason why it'd be worth it. You get more weapons, more unit actions, require less support, and better performance from just taking basic guardsmen.
Meltaguns.. Once everything is out, context will likely still make these guns a tempting choice.
AP-4, not -5, but more to the point, looking at say, Stormtroopers, 4 dudes with Meltaguns (and ST Doctrine) are going to put 7.26 wounds on tanks at 9" Deep Strike distance, Overcharged Plasma are going to do 7.4, the Meltaguns are only superior at 6" and under, which is more difficult to attain and cannot be done typically from the Deep Strike, and even then they're only about 20% better, and only against vehicles/big monsters, the Plasma Guns are better against literally anything else and in any other circumstance.
At 17ppm, I don't think we're really going to see Meltaguns.
Vaktathi wrote: AP-4, not -5, but more to the point, looking at say, Stormtroopers, 4 dudes with Meltaguns (and ST Doctrine) are going to put 7.26 wounds on tanks at 9" Deep Strike distance, Overcharged Plasma are going to do 7.4, the Meltaguns are only superior at 6" and under, which is more difficult to attain and cannot be done typically from the Deep Strike, and even then they're only about 20% better, and only against vehicles/big monsters, the Plasma Guns are better against literally anything else and in any other circumstance.
At 17ppm, I don't think we're really going to see Meltaguns.
Also, that's just 3pts less than a Lascannon, which has basically the same statline (save for +1S and -1AP), but an extra 36" of range.
I feel like the guard nerfs coming are a little heavy handed in some areas for causing poor internal balance... however, I am okay with most of the point changes. Guard were already a little overpowered.
Meltaguns needed to be lower in price to make them useful in comparison to plasma.
We got it community/GW... you don't want us playing conscripts anymore.. Ill remove the white stripe from my helmets as at their new cost they are useless. Might as well bring bare infantry squads who obey orders and have Sergeants. Conscripts working for a bit was nice.
Bobthehero wrote: Melta stormies really need to be shoved out of a Valkyrie.
Too bad doesn't get into melta range.
Well. I was within inch of using part of next fw order to get some ig rather than just 30k stuff and get into 40k more but with ca gw showed they care more about money than balance. Atleast 30k rules still nice and improve soon so my ig gets just unpainted models painted. Maybe later converted to 30k army
Can't you use grav chute anymore? You drop out of the Valk 9'' away and then walk the rest, since you don't need to wait for the end of the movement phase.
I used melta vets in a Valkyrie and they have to be dropped >9" away from enemy units, however, they may still move, advance, etc as normal. So yes, they can move within melta range.
DoomMouse wrote: This wasn't entirely what I was expecting. Some sensible stuff, but most of our strongest stuff still seems weirdly intact! I thought they'd use chapter approved to reign in AM a bit so we're not so far above the rest of the armies...
- Conscripts before the other nerfs might have been comparable to infantry squad costs. With them, they're just flat worse. Regular infantry should have gone to 5pts if conscripts went to 4. It'd have been a bit tough, but I wouldn't have been against it. If conscripts are 4pts, they could undo the commissar nerf for us at least - Can't believe they didn't bump up elysians by at least a point (if not two)
- 7pt plasma guns still make all other special weapons redundant in my opinion. Melta definitely didn't need a price hike.
- Surprised they didn't bump the cost of russes a little. I'd only lost two games of 8th 40k with my competitive foot guard list, and they were both to russ-heavy mech guard
- Astropaths and psyker nerf seems fair. It's not going to stop me spamming smite though, so maybe they could have gone further. Astropaths will still have a role using psychic maelstrom/nightshroud/psychic barrier for cheap though, as well as removing cover.
- Autocannon buff seems reasonable. Surprised they kept mortars so nice and cheap.
- I would only have bumped up ratlings to 8pts per model personally
- Manticore and taurox prime nerfs look appropriate.
I made a similar point in the thread where they're talking about the supposed reveal that rules tweaks will go to twice a year instead of a week after every codex drop. Guardsmen were absolutely worth 5pts a model and conscripts 4pts per model with the old commissar rules, but with the commissar nerf it lowers the value of all other infantry by a fair amount. Very small changes can have massive impacts in this game and hopefully GW will start to figure that out. I mean hey at least they're trying but I don't understand why conscripts went up to 4pts per model yet apparently nobody took a look at the shadowsword for example and thought "huh, maybe this is a little cheap for what it does." GW obviously has no experience with this kind of tight rules writing so I'd imagine that if they're going to truly improve it's going to take time. We could tell that from the get go, most problem units get hit so hard they go from OP to useless overnight, or sometimes get such a small slap on the wrist they remain unchanged. At least they didn't wreck the entire army or not change anything, I was bracing for 6pt infantry squads and 200pt leman russes given how GW reacted to previous complaints about IG.
At least autocannons got a small but fair decrease. I have about 15 of the things from previous editions and it's nice to see that they're a bit better value. They're still not super competitive but at least I'm getting some sort of discount.
The taurox was a little bit cheap for what it did, I think a 10pt raise for the base variant was a fair price increase, especially since with the autocannon discount it really only went up like 5 points.
Personally I'm not seeing the freaking out over astropaths being 30pts, they're still a decent value at that price point just for ignoring cover alone, not to mention a small chance of smite or a regular psychic power or even the ability to cast other powers. At least Primaris Psykers didn't get the Malefic lord treatment.
I'm still trying to figure out what on earth they were smoking with the melta changes though. I mean I was having decent success with them in vet squads in transports but I wasn't for a second pretending they were somehow blatantly superior to plasma at a point more. At 17pts per gun unless there's some big rules shakeup we're not aware of around the corner I don't see melta being that powerful compared to other options. Is this bringing it into line with what space marines pay or something?
Overall it wasn't a terrible update, IG didn't get absolutely destroyed overnight and I know the Admech are decently happy about their update, so as a whole it wasn't a terrible first crack, but GW definitely has room to improve and keep tightening up the ruleset. One of the big problems with this game is the stupid amount of variety and variables they have to account for. I don't think anyone in the world could make this game perfectly 100% balanced and keep half the flavor and variety we have. We can get close obviously, but I don't blame GW for needing some time to figure all this out.
Colonel Cross wrote: I used melta vets in a Valkyrie and they have to be dropped >9" away from enemy units, however, they may still move, advance, etc as normal. So yes, they can move within melta range.
Aah guess i got it wrong. Though disembark includes movement for that turn and grav chute requires staying out of 9". Well good for me on tuesday with flamers
So... they lowered the Artemia Pattern Hellhound's cost to match the standard Hellhound, but forgot to make the turret weapon cost points. So it's now 20 points too cheap, have fun with that before they notice it and FAQ it.
Pretty sure the Artemia HH is meant to work like that, since it only has 2D6 pick the highest hits compared to the standard hellhounds flat 2D6 hits. They had to lower the price because it went from being slightly better than the standard model to significantly worse.
Tyr13 wrote: Pretty sure the Artemia HH is meant to work like that, since it only has 2D6 pick the highest hits compared to the standard hellhounds flat 2D6 hits. They had to lower the price because it went from being slightly better than the standard model to significantly worse.
The Artemia Pattern still does 2 damage per hit, while the codex Hellhound only does 1. The Artemia Pattern also gets to roll two dice and pick the highest to determine hits, so it actually averages more damage than the Hellhound against anything with more than one wound.
I would be very surprised if the Artemia Inferno Cannon being 0 points was intentional.
Yeah, that seems like an oversight... it's not quite as good as a stock hound, but not 20 points worse. As is, it's now a default choice for a fire ship (where you gun for mortal wounds when wrecked).
I still like catachan hounds, but in any other regiment gunning for a brigade, it becomes a cheap, effective choice, especially since you can just run the oop kit and most people won't care. With heavy bolter, it's only 36 points more than a multilaser scout.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So my Chapter approved hot takes:
The good:
- A lot of our best stuff was untouched. Superheavies, Russes, Bassies, heavy weapons, and hellhounds all were left alone.
-Autocannons move from overcosted and niche to just plain niche.
-I guess powerfists are more viable?
The expected:
-Psykers got a points hike, with the Astropath now 2/3 the cost of a primaris. Probably good for overall balance, but even at the new cost, Primaris Psykers are great, just less spammable.
-Manticores got a slight hike, as did Taurox Primes
The Bad:
-Our FW selections got mauled pretty bad.
- The conscript nerf is complete
-Ratlings went from "intriguing source of mortal wounds" to "pass."
-I hope everybody likes plasma, because that's the only really viable special weapon in most applications.
-Is it just me, or were the command rods not the broken element of scions?
The ugly
-Why are earthshaker carriages more than a basilisk?
- Vanquishers went down five points. they could go down TO give points, and still suck.
-Weren't Wyverns borderline already? It's now essentially the same cost as three mortar squads!
All in all, I'm fine with most of the changes, except the melta price hike (if anything, BS3+ should be 12 and Bs4+ 8) while ignoring the woefully overcosted grenade launcher and even flamer (sad but true).
I don't think it's all doom and gloom on the Forge World front. The Leman Russ Conqueror and Annihilator got the 10 point discount like the other russes, solidifying them as probably the best options.
The good Vulture options are basically untouched. The Punisher Vulture is still a measly 160.
The carriages being more expensive than the chimera chassis versions is... bizarre. But not everything got hit with the nerfhammer.
KestrelM1 wrote: The good Vulture options are basically untouched. The Punisher Vulture is still a measly 160.
Eh, I liked the AT-spec Vulture, it was basically a flying las-predator, and it's a cool model. Now it's only 10 points cheaper than a Vendetta.
IMO, this is a classic case of GW getting the problem wrong. When hellstrikes lost once-per-game in the change of editions, FW forgot to update things like the Thunderbolt to match the Valkyrie (i.e. one set of missles). Instead of fixing the root cause they've made an ugly patch with annoying side effects.
KestrelM1 wrote: I don't think it's all doom and gloom on the Forge World front. The Leman Russ Conqueror and Annihilator got the 10 point discount like the other russes, solidifying them as probably the best options.
The good Vulture options are basically untouched. The Punisher Vulture is still a measly 160.
The carriages being more expensive than the chimera chassis versions is... bizarre. But not everything got hit with the nerfhammer.
10 point discount? I'm not getting it. I'm looking at the index and the Conqueror used to cost 110. Gun for 25 and HB for 8. 143 total which is cheaper than a regular Russ from the codex.
In the Chapter Approved the Conqueror went up 12 points so it matches the Codex Russ. I have no problem with that, since it's the best variant.
I do have a problem with many of the other nerfs though.
For example, they should revert the Commissar errata now. Commissars are the only thing that could justify Conscripts costing 4ppm.
Now I have to watch everyone buy and win tournaments with 30 or 60 Dark Reapers for 6 months before GW raises them from 25 to 45 points each.
The Conquereor was previously 132 base via the FAQ, to match the old Index price. I don't blame you for that mistake, though, as having to check 3 sources for the correct points cost for a model is quite a chore.
Do you reckon autocannons will be worth taking on infantry squads now? They're better but I'm not sure if they compete with lascannons or heavy bolters even at 12pts
DoomMouse wrote: Do you reckon autocannons will be worth taking on infantry squads now? They're better but I'm not sure if they compete with lascannons or heavy bolters even at 12pts
Sort of? I've cooled on heavy weapons in infantry squads overall, but I think the price drop allows you to take a squad with an AC and use as an objective grabber/long range plinker.
I'm far more excited for ACs on sentinels (two points more than multilasers!) or in heavy weapon squads, where they run 54pts for three, but won't draw a ton of enemy attention.
pismakron wrote: So, Guardsmen of dakka: Do you think that Conscripts would have made sense at 4 points a model without the nerf to orders and summary execution?
IMHO... yes. With full orders and Summary Execution, they are actually capable of offensive action while staying incredibly durable.
Really, GW actually just figured out what most IG players hadn't: there were multiple ways to still have fearless conscripts! You had the valhallan relic pistol, as well as the fearless psychic power. and that's not counting the Insane Bravery strategem, even though IG are always swimming in CPs.
Looking at the leaked CA stuff, my overall opinion is that GW really doesn't have any idea what they'e doing, there's not a whole lot of methodology behind the changes, and not much thought as to how the units actually function on a table. I don't think they're going to radically change the balance of IG armies or their competitive ranking, but will narrow the types of units we see. Some of the changes don't bother me, I'm fine with the Primaris Psyker going up a bit, but a lot of them seem really poorly thought out. Lots of stuff that needed help didn't get it (Exterminator, Vanquisher didn't get nearly enough, etc), stuff that nobody thought was an issue got hit with the nerf bat (Tempestus Command Rods, Meltaguns and Ratlings...really?) With the Manticore price increase, looking at my competitive choices, I'm increasingly wondering why I couldn't just run an LRBT with a Battlecannon instead. Ok, it needs LoS, but that's heavily table dependent, it's harder to kill, more mobile, if taken barebones is only 9pts more than a barebones Manticore, has very capable secondary weapons options, and can be given Orders, while matching firepower output against anything but T5 and T8-10 targets (which aren't particularly big concerns).
Really, it looks like they really want people to be using a couple Russ variants, Infantry Squads, and Plasma Deep Strike Scions. My prediction is that most lists we're going to see will revolve around these things, with the splash of artillery or hellhound. Transports I think are going to be even rarer in IG armies, mechanized lists are basically going to be nonexistent for 8E.
pismakron wrote: So, Guardsmen of dakka: Do you think that Conscripts would have made sense at 4 points a model without the nerf to orders and summary execution?
Hrm, personally? No. They only really worked when provided with lots of support and played in a certain manner, but utilized in any other manner, or in anything but maximum squad size, the basic Infantry Squad was superior, and still wasn't awful at being a meatshield.
DoomMouse wrote: Do you reckon autocannons will be worth taking on infantry squads now? They're better but I'm not sure if they compete with lascannons or heavy bolters even at 12pts
I don't think so. I've got a bunch of Autocannon heavy weapons teams from previous editions, but the changeover to 8E really hit them hard. For the difference in price (and the platform they're carried by), the Heavy Bolter feels like a much more appropriate weapon, and if you need the extra hitting power you're probably better off saving those points for something that'll actually do the job well. If you have a handful of points left over, it wouldn't hurt to take the AC, but the AC and HB should be the same cost, there's just not enough advantage to make it worth taking over a heavy bolter or not just biting the bullet to take a Lascannon. They worked much better in 5E-7E (where they also were usually the same price as a heavy bolter).
So i finally made the jump and began collecting an Astra Militarum army.
I'm playing at 1500pts at the moment and the plan was to build a brigade containing 3 Leman russ, infantry and some sentinels (i am mainly playing maelstrom, but i'll try out eternal missions soon).
So the theory is (and it's all i have as i have zero experience playing AM):
* Use the ambush stratagem on Pask with 2 infantry squad
* Create a frontline/bubble with the 4 remaining infantry, getting their orders from the nearby company commanders
* Put a leman russ on each flank, the one with the lascannon getting the protection of the astropath (yes i love the punisher, and yes i'm considering other guns like the executionner)
* Use the plasma tempestus command squads as a "blow this s*** up now" button
* Put the heavy weapon team on my backline (objective) (a bit of a bait for ennemy deep strike unit)
* Use the sentinels as my backline, denying deep strike (and with the tallern doctrine and lascannons, they should be able to help blow some stuff up)
** The plan is to advance with all my army except the heavy weapon team and pressure my opponent with the infantry and the LR frontline while flanking him with Pask and some infantry
Anyway as i have 0 experience i don't know yet the weaknesses of this strategy and list.
One question i do have though is if i have enough antitank firepower. In theory i have, 8 lascannons, 6 spare hunter killer missiles, the plasma deep strike and Pask (punisher, lascannons, 2 multimeltas hitting on 2+).
Anyway i'm super happy to finally get to play AM (a bit of a child's dream i guess), but if you guys have any suggestion or can point out something i overlooked while building this list i would gladly take it
You need to be careful with regiments and keywords. Only Cadians can take Pask and only Tallarn vehicles can move and fire heavy weapons without penalty.
DoomMouse wrote: Do you reckon autocannons will be worth taking on infantry squads now? They're better but I'm not sure if they compete with lascannons or heavy bolters even at 12pts
They're better but there are definitely more efficient options now. Basically it just means that if you have models armed with autocannons you're going to be punished slightly less for taking them, since it can somewhat assist in almost any situation, but there are only a couple of very fringe scenarios where it's the ideal choice. I actually really like autocannons, but my meta is so tailored to them being effective it's ridiculous. I would say 75% of my games are against either Primaris Marines, Terminators, or some other 2 wound infantry. This means that Autocannons hit way harder than you'd expect and are essentially just long range plasma guns for me, minus the AP. In almost any other situation they would be middling at best, I just have so many targets that work for them and so many autocannons that weight of fire overcomes the issues I face. I also mainly have them modeled as Cadians so with native rerolls they tend to put out very consistent damage.
The big 3 heavy weapons remain the mortar, heavy bolter, and lascannon. The rest are perfectly serviceable, they're just not anything jaw dropping. There is no "grenade Launcher" among the heavy weapons anymore at least, even missile launchers aren't completely terrible, it's just I'd rather have a lascannon 99% of the time.
I also agree that with the recent changes the Leman Russ has come into its own as probably the best of the heavy support options, aside from maybe baneblade variants. I have been running infantry squad spam, stormtroopers, and Leman Russes and doing very well. I essentially build my lists on a principle of 3's with a platoon's worth of infantry, a platoons worth of stormtroopers, and a tank or two, then just multiply that as I go up in points. Many opponents don't really seem to know how to deal with it. If you go after the tanks the infantry squads get in the way and the stormtroopers land behind. If you go after the infantry the tanks are unmolested and the stormtroopers pick you off in the open. And if you spread out to deny stormtrooper drops now you're spread out against IG and have lost your sole advantage, meaning I can get in a proper slugging match and destroy them in detail. If you're going to take tanks with infantry guard, I would heavily recommend you invest in the basic LRBT. That 72" range can come in handy since every heavy weapon is 48" at best and most of your shooting will be 24" or less. Executioners can work well also, but I tend to take less of them and use them as a counterattack element to plug a gap. With their drastically shorter range they end up being more of a defensive tool than an offensive one.
Was hoping for a price cut on grenade launchers to make them worth it. Have 4 Tallarn grenade launcher models that i want to use WYSWYG. 3pts makes them a good cheap addition to infantry squads.
Conscript pt increase is unnecessary, and smells like a already planned change before the Commisar FAQ nerf. It is what it is though. Guess GW is going in extra on the tissues for the Tears this edition.
Honestly, even though they missed the ball on somethings ( Vanquisher Cannon rework, other LRBT variants, Ratlings point increase?) it could have been much much worse though. Conscripts costing as much as regular guard is silly though, as is the Earthshaker platform/basilisk debacle.
So I didn't sleep very well last night and in a stupor it came to me - these are all fluffy changes!
I mean, a conscript might be worse in every way than a guardsman, but to the departmento munitorum, that's still a lasgun, flak armour, and frag grenades to supply, and the meat filling to maintain and ship around. Plus lots of generals treat all troops as cannon fodder whatever their training was.
Unit1126PLL wrote: With the price hikes on Hellstrike missiles, is the Marauder Destroyer still better than the Marauder Bomber?
The hellstrike cluster is still paying 41/72~pts per hp on LRs with/without the Master of the Fleet bonus. they were getting 27/48 pts per average before which was something extraordinary. The bomber is still relying on too many factors to get its points back; especially since the bombs do better on infantry - which the MD is better at mauling with it's alternate armaments anyway.
I'm far more excited for ACs on sentinels (two points more than multilasers!) or in heavy weapon squads, where they run 54pts for three, but won't draw a ton of enemy attention.
I had missed the sentinel application!
There really is no reason at all to take multilasers on them now.
I'm far more excited for ACs on sentinels (two points more than multilasers!) or in heavy weapon squads, where they run 54pts for three, but won't draw a ton of enemy attention.
I had missed the sentinel application!
There really is no reason at all to take multilasers on them now.
It's still the cheapest option, and even for two points, I'd rather throw a storm bolter on a tank than upgun a scout sentinel, which is 90% there to block deep strikes, draw fire, charge as needed, or hide on objectives. Going from 1/9 wound on a rhino while moving to 1/3 of wound is pretty negligible.
What does everyone intend to do to supplement their screens for the arty / heavy weapons now that your one conscript squad that could take insane bravery doesn't really make sense anymore.
I'm wondering whether 3 Infantry squads with flamers in front of the other infantry squads and juicy stuff is sufficient.
It might just be that we need to evaporate any attackers after the first wave with a punisher / vulture.
I'd just bring 3 naked Infantry Squads, instead of 30 conscripts, to screen. Their LD is better anyways, and once the screen becomes less important (after the DSers/infiltrators/whomever) have dropped, they can spread out and do more things on the table.
Naix wrote: What does everyone intend to do to supplement their screens for the arty / heavy weapons now that your one conscript squad that could take insane bravery doesn't really make sense anymore.
I'm wondering whether 3 Infantry squads with flamers in front of the other infantry squads and juicy stuff is sufficient.
It might just be that we need to evaporate any attackers after the first wave with a punisher / vulture.
I bring a minimum of 40 infantry with plasmaguns, plasma pistols, and power swords, walking up to 60 in larger games. Their role is to do whatever they need to do. If I need a screen, then they stand there and hold the line. If I don't then they move forward, capture objectives, and attack when opportunity arises while the big guns and stormtroopers do most of the talking.
I don't normally play in games smaller than 1500, so I have points to burn, but that's 224 points (well, pre-CA it was). It's not going to neutralize most alpha strikes before they happen, but it does keep them off of me for a round. I don't have a nid heavy meta, but that's been all the time I've needed against any other alpha I've come across.
Slightly off topic, but the title of this thread is really amusing to me. Even with the point changes, "More Competitive" is a bit of an understatement.
I haven't punched in the numbers yet but I'm wondering how my mainly Scions force will look with the changes. I didn't load up on purely Melta and Plasma, but it looks like Volley Guns went up as well.
Having to pay for the Command Rod seems plain moronic. You're already giving up your pistol for the ability to issue 2 Orders, do you really need to pay more?
vipoid wrote: Having to pay for the Command Rod seems plain moronic. You're already giving up your pistol for the ability to issue 2 Orders, do you really need to pay more?
I somewhat agree, but 2 orders is actually just amazing. Drop in a single dude with two Plasma Commands and give them both rerolls while only risking one HQ. I honestly don't even mind the price.
vipoid wrote: Having to pay for the Command Rod seems plain moronic. You're already giving up your pistol for the ability to issue 2 Orders, do you really need to pay more?
I somewhat agree, but 2 orders is actually just amazing. Drop in a single dude with two Plasma Commands and give them both rerolls while only risking one HQ. I honestly don't even mind the price.
I get that 2 orders is good, but Company Commanders get 2 Orders as standard and are 10pts cheaper. And have a 5++. And can take a pistol.
If they want to drop Tempestor Primes down to 35pts and make the Command Rod 5pts, fine. But tacking an extra 5pts onto their cost just seems unnecessary.
They seem to be pushing us into considering alternatives to Scions Through the BS3 weapon point increases. I love hellblasters performance on the table so might consider them for the heavy infantry role in larger games where I have the points to flesh out with some supporting charachters.
Vets are in an uncomfortable position because there's just nothing for them to do. They seem like they want to be mobile, but they don't really have the staying power to be outside of a chimera, which is where they have to be if you want to use all their good stuff. You could put them in a Valkyrie, but if you were going to do that, you'd just take command squads to get more guns. If they had access to their old 5th ed special rules, you could load them up with carapace armor and maybe do something a bit more dynamic, but we already have that and it's called "scions".
So I've got my one squad that I have painted up in a slightly less bright Mordian scheme that will sit on a shelf because there's no way I'm bringing three meltaguns and a missile launcher at this point. Maybe I'll turn the meltas into a command squad and use them with one of the Vendettas I barely touch anymore.
I'd actually play the gak out of Veterans if they had carapace. I don't want to pay 10ppm for carapace+deep strike+hellgun in my heavy infantry regiment, but I'd happily pay 7 or 8 points for carapace + lasgun.
daedalus wrote: Vets are in an uncomfortable position because there's just nothing for them to do. They seem like they want to be mobile, but they don't really have the staying power to be outside of a chimera, which is where they have to be if you want to use all their good stuff. You could put them in a Valkyrie, but if you were going to do that, you'd just take command squads to get more guns. If they had access to their old 5th ed special rules, you could load them up with carapace armor and maybe do something a bit more dynamic, but we already have that and it's called "scions".
I agree, though I think they might have had a better shot if they weren't paying the same price for plasma/melta as Scions - which are good not because of their BS but because of their pinpoint DS ability.
Another aspect regarding Veterans is that (to me at least) they often feel wasteful. As in, they can take 3 Special Weapons plus a Heavy Flamer plus a Heavy Weapon. If you use all those slots, they get very expensive very quickly (relative to their survivability), but if you don't it just feels like a waste.
Veterans are good passengers for the super-heavies with firing decks, but I think that's the only remaining niche they fill. And even there they'll be outshone by Command Squads unless you run out of "allowance" for them.
Veterans desperately need the Chimera to regain its firing ports to remain relevant.
I think they're trying to tone down scion spam without toning down Scions. the Prime was ridiculously good, and what's essentially a five point increase doesn't really change that.
The CC isn't an apples to apples comparison, because the value of orders (essentially the "aura" for IG) is much higher with scions than with regimental infantry.
I think you could argue that the prime is only worth 30 points stock, and 45 with a command rod. Since his only real value is the orders, that would bring him more into line with the PC/CC split.
Polonius wrote: I think they're trying to tone down scion spam without toning down Scions. the Prime was ridiculously good, and what's essentially a five point increase doesn't really change that.
I strongly disagree.
The Prime was already of dubious necessity, and now it's looking increasingly appealing to just skip him altogether,
Unit1126PLL wrote: I'd actually play the gak out of Veterans if they had carapace. I don't want to pay 10ppm for carapace+deep strike+hellgun in my heavy infantry regiment, but I'd happily pay 7 or 8 points for carapace + lasgun.
I think Krieg Grenadiers are in the 8-9 pts range, if that's any interest to you.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I'd actually play the gak out of Veterans if they had carapace. I don't want to pay 10ppm for carapace+deep strike+hellgun in my heavy infantry regiment, but I'd happily pay 7 or 8 points for carapace + lasgun.
I think Krieg Grenadiers are in the 8-9 pts range, if that's any interest to you.
Yeah, sadly I want to customize my regiment. I've got some neato guys with Roman shields who I think would make excellent Mordians, 'cause they'd look badass in a shield wall, and obviously have a 4+ save, because gigantic tower shields.
Sadly, no Mordian infantry can ever have a 4+ save.
Requizen wrote: Slightly off topic, but the title of this thread is really amusing to me. Even with the point changes, "More Competitive" is a bit of an understatement.
I haven't punched in the numbers yet but I'm wondering how my mainly Scions force will look with the changes. I didn't load up on purely Melta and Plasma, but it looks like Volley Guns went up as well.
The title is what it is because this thread was started in the early days of the edition, or even before release. We didn't have much information then. But you're right, it should be changed. Or better yet, start a new one since Codex is out and CA is almost out.
Polonius wrote: I think they're trying to tone down scion spam without toning down Scions. the Prime was ridiculously good, and what's essentially a five point increase doesn't really change that.
I strongly disagree.
The Prime was already of dubious necessity, and now it's looking increasingly appealing to just skip him altogether,
Sure..
Problem is rolling 1's with plasma gunners looses your 22pt model.. And the Prime makes your guys 6 times less likely to do that? (1/36 into 1/6?).. or from reasonable (more often than not) loosing a guy every single shooting phase to.. perhaps loosing a guy once per (long) game.
Lets assume you drop two 10 man scion squads and a prime, the squads have four plasma guns. Rapid firing, that's 16 shots. Normally, you get just over 10 hits,, and between two or three guys die. Under Take Aim, that shifts to just over 12 hits, and only about half a guy die.
A 40 point character adds a 20% kicker to the squads' firepower, and only costs about 15% of the squad. It's a damn good upgrade, and will remain so even at the new points cost.
Polonius wrote: Lets assume you drop two 10 man scion squads and a prime, the squads have four plasma guns. Rapid firing, that's 16 shots. Normally, you get just over 10 hits,, and between two or three guys die. Under Take Aim, that shifts to just over 14 hits, and only about half a guy die.
Your math is badly wrong.
It actually goes from 10.67 hits to 12.44 hits.
You'll lose fewer guys to overheats, sure. But if you didn't buy the Primes, you'd have more guys in the first place.
Polonius wrote: A 40 point character adds a 40% kicker to the squads' firepower, and only costs about 15% of the squad.
Again, this is flat out wrong. The Prime is adding a mere 16% to the squad's firepower.
What's more, this is very much a best-case scenario. For most other squads (a 5-man squad with 2 plasmaguns or a Scion Command Squad with 4 Plasmaguns), the Prime is going to be a lot more than 15% of their cost. He's 25% of 2 Scion Command Squads and 29% of 2 5-man Scion Squads, yet only increases their firepower by 16%.
It seems we have very different ideas about what constitutes good value.
Naix wrote: What does everyone intend to do to supplement their screens for the arty / heavy weapons now that your one conscript squad that could take insane bravery doesn't really make sense anymore.
I'm wondering whether 3 Infantry squads with flamers in front of the other infantry squads and juicy stuff is sufficient.
It might just be that we need to evaporate any attackers after the first wave with a punisher / vulture.
I never used conscripts before and I definitely will not now and I have had zero issues using infantry squads. Bare in mind I play a combat catachan army and I also use a feth ton of hard hitting characters and a 5 man brick of bullgryn to anchor the center stage
Infantry are amazing, with move move move I have grabbed objectives over 20" away at the start of my turn and with LD8 being catachan so long as characters are nearby I generally don't care about moral either. No one shoots my infantry usually anyway, if they were, I'd be playing poorly. When my army punches a hole through their center turn 1 while getting shot up from the back they don't have the chance to waste time on infantry. I ran a few squads with specials only, but honestly I am swapping to naked squads to pay for the CA point increases.
You would need to be solidly playing from the fluff, like a valhallan army to even have an urge to use conscripts now.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I'd actually play the gak out of Veterans if they had carapace. I don't want to pay 10ppm for carapace+deep strike+hellgun in my heavy infantry regiment, but I'd happily pay 7 or 8 points for carapace + lasgun.
I think Krieg Grenadiers are in the 8-9 pts range, if that's any interest to you.
Yeah, sadly I want to customize my regiment. I've got some neato guys with Roman shields who I think would make excellent Mordians, 'cause they'd look badass in a shield wall, and obviously have a 4+ save, because gigantic tower shields.
Sadly, no Mordian infantry can ever have a 4+ save.
So, anyone running Russ companies? I keep coming back to them with the CA changes, a grip of Russ tanks with some infantry screen feels pretty solid and unlikely to get changed too much in the near future.
I've been thinking something along the lines of a couple of battalion detachments with three infantry squads apiece and a couple officers each, six HS Russ tanks of various sorts, and two tank commanders for a 2k game. That gives you 8 heavy tanks and 60 dudes plus officers.
Either make all 8 Russ tanks Battlecannon/Hull LC/Sponson HB's or make HQ's up as Executioners w/lascannon & sponson PC's with a couple LC/HB Annihilators and the others as Battlecannon/HB tanks, and kit out the infantry to suit (probably HB/Plasma?) if you want some variety or more AT.
Anyone having any success running something along those lines?
I managed to get in three games in a few hours because they were over by turn 2. Not necessarily the steepest competition (Necrons, Primarch Deathguard with Drones/Daemon Princes/Terminators, Primaris) but it is definitely casual competitive, even with needed adjustments for CA. I use the Basilisk and flamer Chimera/Leman to fish for Overlapping Fire or whatever the proper name of the Cadian stratagem is in conjunction with the relic for a healthy T1 alpha strike. Throwing the infantry in Chimeras and using Leman squadrons keeps the drop total low enough to help with going first.
I was going for WYSIWYG but if you have a choice in your collection or are less strict I would drop sponsons for more stuff. As an example if you drop sponsons and the Basilisk and use a Primaris for the spearhead HQ instead of Pask you can get 8 Lemans pretty easily, maybe 9 if you squeeze points and drop the Demolishers for normal Lemans. Either way it should be a serviceable base to play with.
This does not have the infantry screen since I would prefer to try harder for turn 1 and take risks with deployment but you can also pretty easily make some changes to include a battalion by getting rid of Chimeras. That is going to massively increase your drop count though.
The next thing to try in this vein will be going Catachan to see how I like that and throwing in a super heavy. The draft of that looks like this. Chimera for the characters and squadrons keeps it down to 8 drops even with 3 foot infantry squads.
From what I've read, the typical thinking of guardsmen is "more men is better than upgraded men." But the more I work with it, kitting out basic guard squads seems to be insanely good value.
For 40 points, I get 10 dudes with lasguns. For 52 points, I get 10 (technically 9) dudes with 7 lasguns, a bolter, heavy bolter, and a plasma gun. This seems like a stupidly Good Deal(tm).
Yes, guardsman die easily, but with 10 wounds, incidental shooting won't take out a squad - you actually need to dedicate some attention to it if you want to get rid of it.
The firepower, while not crazy, is in my mind sufficient. 1.25 MEQ, or 2.6 GEQ at 24". It's varied enough to deal with just about anything other than heavy armour and the like. And that's all before orders, regiment bonuses, or anything else.
But the real power comes from the cheapness and how it scales. For 260 points you can get five of these squads. Compare that to six squads of lasgun guardsmen for 240 points. This just seems like a ridiculous amount of bodies and decent weaponry for 250ish points. Am I crazy, are you guard folks all running basic dudes with little to no upgrades? Because to me this seems like a no-brainer.
It depends. Pre codex when Leman Russes were garbage I was running pure infantry. Never lost a game. I ran half of my squads with boltguns, plasma guns, and Las cannons. The other half were the frontline units without heavy weapons. The only thing that was difficult to take out was heavy infantry. I think it would have a hard time dealing with Death Guard now.
Now that I'm including tanks I just take 40 guys with only plasma guns as chaff to eat all the mortal wounds and keep out assault units.
Also, your math is a bit off, your tooled up squads are 56 points, not 52.
And bare bones squads supported with orders can actually do quite well against infantry, which is really all I need them to kill when I have 4 battle tanks and some artillery taking out everything else.
Anyone else read it and think GW were intentionally trying to push people in to making the least effective use of the box contents, even playing up stuff that's getting nerfed in Chapter Approved.
Anyone else read it and think GW were intentionally trying to push people in to making the least effective use of the box contents, even playing up stuff that's getting nerfed in Chapter Approved.
The Veterans comment is reasonable from the point of view of the number of people over the years that have asked "what do veterans look like? where do I get those kits from?"
Used to see it asked pretty frequently in the 5th ed days.
Anyone else read it and think GW were intentionally trying to push people in to making the least effective use of the box contents, even playing up stuff that's getting nerfed in Chapter Approved.
To be fair, saying stuff like 'you can technically make 4 different Leman Russ variants but 3 of them are complete garbage so you might as well stick with the basic one' probably wouldn't go down well with the marketing department.
Polonius wrote: Lets assume you drop two 10 man scion squads and a prime, the squads have four plasma guns. Rapid firing, that's 16 shots. Normally, you get just over 10 hits,, and between two or three guys die. Under Take Aim, that shifts to just over 14 hits, and only about half a guy die.
Your math is badly wrong.
It actually goes from 10.67 hits to 12.44 hits.
You'll lose fewer guys to overheats, sure. But if you didn't buy the Primes, you'd have more guys in the first place.
Polonius wrote: A 40 point character adds a 40% kicker to the squads' firepower, and only costs about 15% of the squad.
Again, this is flat out wrong. The Prime is adding a mere 16% to the squad's firepower.
What's more, this is very much a best-case scenario. For most other squads (a 5-man squad with 2 plasmaguns or a Scion Command Squad with 4 Plasmaguns), the Prime is going to be a lot more than 15% of their cost. He's 25% of 2 Scion Command Squads and 29% of 2 5-man Scion Squads, yet only increases their firepower by 16%.
It seems we have very different ideas about what constitutes good value.
Are you not accounting that re-rolls is more chances to roll 6's, and thus fire an extra round from an entire gun, increasing overall total hits, and the relic you've obviously given him allowing him to issue them a second order [On a re-rollable 4+, granted] to also re-roll failed to wounds vs likely targets, or 1's to wound vs anyone else?
Anyone else read it and think GW were intentionally trying to push people in to making the least effective use of the box contents, even playing up stuff that's getting nerfed in Chapter Approved.
To be fair, that's true of all the battleforce/start collecting previews so far.
4100xpb wrote: From what I've read, the typical thinking of guardsmen is "more men is better than upgraded men." But the more I work with it, kitting out basic guard squads seems to be insanely good value.
For 40 points, I get 10 dudes with lasguns. For 52 points, I get 10 (technically 9) dudes with 7 lasguns, a bolter, heavy bolter, and a plasma gun. This seems like a stupidly Good Deal(tm).
Yes, guardsman die easily, but with 10 wounds, incidental shooting won't take out a squad - you actually need to dedicate some attention to it if you want to get rid of it.
The firepower, while not crazy, is in my mind sufficient. 1.25 MEQ, or 2.6 GEQ at 24". It's varied enough to deal with just about anything other than heavy armour and the like. And that's all before orders, regiment bonuses, or anything else.
But the real power comes from the cheapness and how it scales. For 260 points you can get five of these squads. Compare that to six squads of lasgun guardsmen for 240 points. This just seems like a ridiculous amount of bodies and decent weaponry for 250ish points. Am I crazy, are you guard folks all running basic dudes with little to no upgrades? Because to me this seems like a no-brainer.
The main reason I tool out my squads is because with 8th dropping, I've usually had problems just getting enough models on the table to play a game as everyone at my store wants 1500-2000pt games. This means that I tend to kit out even my chaff squads because I'm taking so much infantry just to get on the table in the first place, I just don't care if my squads are technically not the most efficient. If I was planning on being as brutally efficient as possible, I would say the best squad you can get for screening would be Plasma/heavy bolter, with maybe a bolter if you're bored or have a few free points. This is simply because not every game you are going to need a screen. This means there will be times where those chaff squads can just act normally with the rest of your army. Without at least some sort of weapon, all they're good for is FRFSRF, which isn't always useful or helpful. As an infantry player, I am drowning in anti infantry firepower already, I don't need units tailored to that. For this reason I would consider at least a plasma gun mandatory on even the cheapest throwaway squads. Heavy weapons usually pay for themselves, but I get why some people don't bother.
As an infantry guy, I've actually been looking heavily into things like more stormtroopers and Leman Russes. My games take much longer now thanks to split fire and how some orders work, so I'm actually trying to get a bit less infantry focused at larger scale games. Even at a 1,000pts I routinely crack a 120 infantry, and anything more than that just gets tiring to play with blobs being gone. I've also found that that much infantry becomes almost impossible for casual opponents to remove, even if it technically was only half my list, so I think there's a certain point where the amount of infantry squads you have starts to offer diminishing returns. My ideal "infantry" list now is looking to be something like 50% infantry squads, 25% stormtroopers, 25% leman russes. Realistically the points mean this isn't quite the shakeup but when you see the army on the table that's how it comes across.
This would be my no friends, I'm going to win this one list at 2,000pts. 82 infantry, 42 stormtroopers, 4 leman russes. It's a little weak to morale but the idea is that the opponent will have very little time to actually shoot at the infantry squads given the Leman Russ tanks in the back and the stormtrooper platoon dropping into their own lines. I preferred full squads because if you drop them in force in a specific spot, you can essentially force the enemy out of part of their own deployment, 42 carapace armored infantry with high AP weaponry and rerolling 1's being surprisingly tough to deal with with proper fire support. The goal of this list is being an infantry focused army in spirit but being able to play much faster with tournaments in mind, hence lest emphasis on orders for the infantry and tanks and more emphasis that the stormtroopers always have orders. I'm not sure how it'd do against the top tables but I've tested the theory behind this list multiple times and its good enough that I don't bring this kind of list against friends for a casual game anymore. If you really wanted to crank this up to 11, you would reconfigure the list a bit to give the stormtroopers their own batallion, that way they get their own regiment trait as well. I could do this by dropping the Executioner command tank and taking more basic stuff, but he's a centerpiece of my army and a good luck charm, so I don't leave home without him.
It was the encouraging 3 heavy weapons in Veteran squads and to take arguably the worst Leman Russ variant the Exterminator I was thinking of in particular. Particularly now the Exterminator weapon only costs 1 point less than putting two autocannons in infantry squads for the same stats.
Are you not accounting that re-rolls is more chances to roll 6's, and thus fire an extra round from an entire gun, increasing overall total hits, and the relic you've obviously given him allowing him to issue them a second order [On a re-rollable 4+, granted] to also re-roll failed to wounds vs likely targets, or 1's to wound vs anyone else?
The OP did not appear to take the 'extra shot on a to-hit roll of 6+' into account, so I ignored it as well. I don't think it would make a huge amount of difference to the % improvement, but I could be wrong. If I have time tomorrow, I'll try to work out the math for it.
I'm not including Relics in this. If the Prime is anywhere near as good as people are claiming he is, then he should be able to stand on his own merits. He certainly shouldn't need a one-per-army relic to make him worthwhile.
Also, even with the relic, 'rerollable 4+' is rather disingenuous. Neither the relic nor the Prime has a native reroll. If you want a reroll, you have to use CPs (and so would also only be able to reroll one of those 4+ rolls each turn).
In an army swimming in command points, 1cp is an exceptionally worthwhile spend for the level of buffing that one prime does for his terribly simple amount of points.
As far as I can tell, your point was, 'Ditch prime, take more stormtroopers'. I strongly suspect my Prime + 10man with 4 plasmas and a plasma pistol and relic, is significantly more effective use of points. It's worked flawlessly in every game I've played thus far. Sure, it requires a relic, but this is the most effective use of said relic available.
The prime has to be costed to take this into account, because this is what it does.
vipoid wrote: The OP did not appear to take the 'extra shot on a to-hit roll of 6+' into account, so I ignored it as well. I don't think it would make a huge amount of difference to the % improvement, but I could be wrong. If I have time tomorrow, I'll try to work out the math for it.
On average, it's the same as re-rolling 1s - i.e. a 17% increase.
vipoid wrote: The OP did not appear to take the 'extra shot on a to-hit roll of 6+' into account, so I ignored it as well. I don't think it would make a huge amount of difference to the % improvement, but I could be wrong. If I have time tomorrow, I'll try to work out the math for it.
On average, it's the same as re-rolling 1s - i.e. a 17% increase.
Yeah, it's just a pain in terms of factoring in the rerolls as well.
AdmiralHalsey wrote: In an army swimming in command points, 1cp is an exceptionally worthwhile spend for the level of buffing that one prime does for his terribly simple amount of points.
Firstly, it's not just the matter of spending CPs, it's the fact that you're spending your reroll. Your army could have 100000 CP and you can still only reroll one thing in your shooting phase. It's quite possible that, for example. you'd rather use it to reroll a 1 or 2 on the damage from a Lascannon - which offers far more certainty than using it to reroll an order.
Regardless, it seems you missed my point entirely. If you're arguing that a Tempestor Prime is so amazing that he needed an increase in points, then he should be able to stand entirely on his own merits - there should be absolutely no need to include a Relic or CP reroll in the equation (especially since an army can include multiple Primes, but only one would be able to benefit from either of those).
As far as I can tell, your point was, 'Ditch prime, take more stormtroopers'.
My initial point was simply that the Prime really didn't need an increase in cost and that his buff was far less than the OP stated.
AdmiralHalsey wrote: I strongly suspect my Prime + 10man with 4 plasmas and a plasma pistol and relic, is significantly more effective use of points.
But you're not just using points, are you? You're also adding in a Relic and then treating it as if it was a base part of the Prime itself.
When you discuss Company Commanders, do you assume that each one will have the Laurels of Command?
When you discuss Ogryn Bodyguards, do you factor in the Death mask of Ollanius into all their stats?
Again, a model that people are claiming to be super-overpowered should not need to take a Relic in order to be worthwhile.
AdmiralHalsey wrote: The prime has to be costed to take this into account, because this is what it does.
That's plain nonsense. If you include the Laurels of Command in the Prime's cost, then every subsequent Prime you take will be overcosted (since they won't have that relic).
You'll lose fewer guys to overheats, sure. But if you didn't buy the Primes, you'd have more guys in the first place.
Again, this is flat out wrong. The Prime is adding a mere 16% to the squad's firepower.
What's more, this is very much a best-case scenario. For most other squads (a 5-man squad with 2 plasmaguns or a Scion Command Squad with 4 Plasmaguns), the Prime is going to be a lot more than 15% of their cost. He's 25% of 2 Scion Command Squads and 29% of 2 5-man Scion Squads, yet only increases their firepower by 16%.
It seems we have very different ideas about what constitutes good value.
Yeah, I went back to fix the math, but I must have edited after you responded. Thanks for the correct figures.
If you're running a Prime, you're really looking at probably one 10 man Scion squad and a command squad. You can't take two command squads without two primes, and if you're running MSU scions, there is no reason to drop primes, for the reasons you mention.
So take aim almost pays for itself, just on plasma, not counting the five HSLG shots, which aren't nothing. It adds 5/9 of a Hot shot hit, which shakes out to just over 1/3 extra wound on anything T4-T7 and a 3+ save. BTW, that's identical to a plasma pistol shot, so that's five points right there.
So, I'll concede that in raw ecnomics, the prime doesn't pay for itself. I will say that having played scions a bit, the Prime is really quite flexible. It's a unit for linebreaker or objectives, and often, there's a limit to how many plasma guns you can cram into the landing zone available while also having double tap range. The Prime can comfortably slot behind them. While Scions often die the turn after they land, they don't always, and a Prime can give different orders, including most critically Get Back int eh Fight, which has really come in handy.
Under the stormtrooper doctrine, each shot has an additional 1/36 chance of spiking (a one, rerolled to a six), so 16 plasma shots under take aim would have just under 1/2 of an extra shot. That's not nothing, but is a pretty minor buff at about a 3% boost in firepower.
I think you can make an argument that Scions don't need the Prime, but that it's a fine choice for the points.
4100xpb wrote: From what I've read, the typical thinking of guardsmen is "more men is better than upgraded men." But the more I work with it, kitting out basic guard squads seems to be insanely good value.
For 40 points, I get 10 dudes with lasguns. For 52 points, I get 10 (technically 9) dudes with 7 lasguns, a bolter, heavy bolter, and a plasma gun. This seems like a stupidly Good Deal(tm).
Yes, guardsman die easily, but with 10 wounds, incidental shooting won't take out a squad - you actually need to dedicate some attention to it if you want to get rid of it.
The firepower, while not crazy, is in my mind sufficient. 1.25 MEQ, or 2.6 GEQ at 24". It's varied enough to deal with just about anything other than heavy armour and the like. And that's all before orders, regiment bonuses, or anything else.
But the real power comes from the cheapness and how it scales. For 260 points you can get five of these squads. Compare that to six squads of lasgun guardsmen for 240 points. This just seems like a ridiculous amount of bodies and decent weaponry for 250ish points. Am I crazy, are you guard folks all running basic dudes with little to no upgrades? Because to me this seems like a no-brainer.
The main reason I tool out my squads is because with 8th dropping, I've usually had problems just getting enough models on the table to play a game as everyone at my store wants 1500-2000pt games. This means that I tend to kit out even my chaff squads because I'm taking so much infantry just to get on the table in the first place, I just don't care if my squads are technically not the most efficient. If I was planning on being as brutally efficient as possible, I would say the best squad you can get for screening would be Plasma/heavy bolter, with maybe a bolter if you're bored or have a few free points. This is simply because not every game you are going to need a screen. This means there will be times where those chaff squads can just act normally with the rest of your army. Without at least some sort of weapon, all they're good for is FRFSRF, which isn't always useful or helpful. As an infantry player, I am drowning in anti infantry firepower already, I don't need units tailored to that. For this reason I would consider at least a plasma gun mandatory on even the cheapest throwaway squads. Heavy weapons usually pay for themselves, but I get why some people don't bother.
As an infantry guy, I've actually been looking heavily into things like more stormtroopers and Leman Russes. My games take much longer now thanks to split fire and how some orders work, so I'm actually trying to get a bit less infantry focused at larger scale games. Even at a 1,000pts I routinely crack a 120 infantry, and anything more than that just gets tiring to play with blobs being gone. I've also found that that much infantry becomes almost impossible for casual opponents to remove, even if it technically was only half my list, so I think there's a certain point where the amount of infantry squads you have starts to offer diminishing returns. My ideal "infantry" list now is looking to be something like 50% infantry squads, 25% stormtroopers, 25% leman russes. Realistically the points mean this isn't quite the shakeup but when you see the army on the table that's how it comes across.
This would be my no friends, I'm going to win this one list at 2,000pts. 82 infantry, 42 stormtroopers, 4 leman russes. It's a little weak to morale but the idea is that the opponent will have very little time to actually shoot at the infantry squads given the Leman Russ tanks in the back and the stormtrooper platoon dropping into their own lines. I preferred full squads because if you drop them in force in a specific spot, you can essentially force the enemy out of part of their own deployment, 42 carapace armored infantry with high AP weaponry and rerolling 1's being surprisingly tough to deal with with proper fire support. The goal of this list is being an infantry focused army in spirit but being able to play much faster with tournaments in mind, hence lest emphasis on orders for the infantry and tanks and more emphasis that the stormtroopers always have orders. I'm not sure how it'd do against the top tables but I've tested the theory behind this list multiple times and its good enough that I don't bring this kind of list against friends for a casual game anymore. If you really wanted to crank this up to 11, you would reconfigure the list a bit to give the stormtroopers their own batallion, that way they get their own regiment trait as well. I could do this by dropping the Executioner command tank and taking more basic stuff, but he's a centerpiece of my army and a good luck charm, so I don't leave home without him.
That's exactly why I rejoiced so much when the codex came out and the Leman Russ was salvaged. I got so tired of taking so long at my FLGS.
This list is great, BUT you're SO CLOSE to getting 3 BNs AND keeping the Stormtrooper's doctrine ... I would probably tweak that list a bit if it were mine to find another 45 points. (with CA Command Rod addition)
Vaktathi wrote: Anyone having any success running something along those lines?
I tried armored company and hated it pre-Codex.
Yeah, they were awful.
I had a chance to take the below list to the FLGS for a trial this weekend.
The next thing to try in this vein will be going Catachan to see how I like that and throwing in a super heavy. The draft of that looks like this. Chimera for the characters and squadrons keeps it down to 8 drops even with 3 foot infantry squads.
Looks solid, the Catachan doctrine is pretty ridiculous with random shot weapons, the couple games I played with it easily made it feel over the top, though my initial rolling was often horrific (as is tradition) with my rerolls being fantastic
On a similar note, while daydreaming at work between spreadsheets, the Macharius Vulcan beckoned to me once more in the most ridiculous way. Anyone ever tried going whole-hog in on just spamming armor alone and raw rate of fire?
Something like a 2k list using Cadian doctrines with 3 Macharius Vulcans loaded with stubbers, 4 triple HB Punishers and Pask in a triple HB Punisher? 3 SH's and 5 Russ tanks. There's no infantry screen, but that's 380 shots a turn from the tanks at 24" and under (with 90 S6 AP-2 D2 60" shots to cover stuff at longer ranges), with everything in range it's averaging almost 70 dead Space Marines or 140 Orks a turn or putting about 43 wounds on T7 3+sv vehicles.
I really want to try that...some things would eat that list alive...but so...much...dakka.
@Colonel Cross, yeah I noticed that after fooling around a bit. Basically you'd take away the Executioner command tank and switch it to a normal tank. Then you have a few points to play with, which would be enough give a couple tanks lascannons or something. Basically it would be two identical battalions of
x2 company commander
x4 infantry squad: Plasma, Lascannon, Bolter
x2 Leman Russ
and a batallion of stormtroopers
x2 Stormtrooper commander with rods
x4 10 man units with x4 plasma and plasma pistol
BTW I am accounting for the added points cost added in CA, so this is adjusted for after book drops.
I like that what is essentially a really meat and potatoes army with some stormtrooper drops can make a really powerful list this edition. In any other edition I can remember taking infantry and russes was considered fluffbunny play at absolute best.
Colonel Cross wrote: It depends. Pre codex when Leman Russes were garbage I was running pure infantry. Never lost a game. I ran half of my squads with boltguns, plasma guns, and Las cannons. The other half were the frontline units without heavy weapons. The only thing that was difficult to take out was heavy infantry. I think it would have a hard time dealing with Death Guard now.
Now that I'm including tanks I just take 40 guys with only plasma guns as chaff to eat all the mortal wounds and keep out assault units.
Also, your math is a bit off, your tooled up squads are 56 points, not 52.
And bare bones squads supported with orders can actually do quite well against infantry, which is really all I need them to kill when I have 4 battle tanks and some artillery taking out everything else.
Is that math official now? Last time I checked YMDC points for guard squads with a heavy team was still unsettled.
I agree with you, though, against most infantry lasguns with FRSRF will roll enough dice to kill something.
Okay first league game is over. Unsurprisingly with the super hard 12" LOS "let's start within spitting distance" scenario I lost. I did get one round of shooting(almost got first turn rolling 6 but he had +1 and rolled 5 and reroll I threw 1 right off the bat). Tried with vendetta going to chase the objective but apart from landing on wrong side of ruin(thus shortening distance for talon to get there) I also made tactical mistake of disembarking both squads. As 2nd squad couldn't get into LOS and 8" with flamer anyway should have kept them onboard.
Either way didn't matter due to flamer squad failing to do much of a dent on 5 wyches there. 11 flamer hits, 1 dead. Vendetta tries to drop more, one survives being hit anyway and even had to spend reroll to get 1 to wound roll rerolled. Overwatch dropped just 1 more and that was that.
Brutal game on tough scenario coupled with tons of errors on my part. Like forgetting to move heavy weapons on turn 1 so the could have somebody within 12" LOS or forgetting orders completely. Whoops! Not that it mattered in the end as vendetta&co failed but remember those in future!
Anyway next scenario is bit better. It's basically last stand type scenario with side A starting on middle in 24" circle with player B starting on all 4 corners with edges going from middle of edge to middle of adjacent edges. Minimum 3" distance between armies so AGAIN I need to cram stuff far from my edges or eat quaranteed turn 1 charges. Sigh. With IG I'm not likely to get +1 on first turn either. And having lost game I'm likely the one starting in the middle. If I face player who won his game I'm in the middle as I lost.
45 power levels this time, one patrol detachment. Next 2 times I will at least have battallion while last game I get brigade to ease up my chronic lack of FOC slots.
Current plan is company commander, Pask all plasma'ed up, 3 infantry squads, vendetta, special weapon squad and manticore. Or maybe drop SWS and manticore and get another russ for some mobile firepower. I think I might need to try to break out toward one side.
One squad is probably used as sacrificial pawns to give me at least one round of shooting before enemy gets right in my face. Second squad used rear guard to keep anybody from there tagging tanks hopefully bit later.
Vendetta could also be swapped for another russ.
Like the scenario otherwise but damn this spitting range deployments are getting on my nerves.
Dude I hate to be that guy but why are you doing this to yourself? Whoever has made this league has such a bone to pick with shooting armies that it sounds like they've done everything but say "Shooting isn't allowed". I would talk to this guy and tell him these missions are insane, if he has any idea of what balance is there's no way he can look at these scenarios and call them fair.
Forget IG for a moment, what would Tau do in this kind of scenario? They don't even get token melee units like guard does with Ogryn. I'm pretty sure it's actually impossible for them to win in this kind of scenario.
Colonel Cross wrote: It depends. Pre codex when Leman Russes were garbage I was running pure infantry. Never lost a game. I ran half of my squads with boltguns, plasma guns, and Las cannons. The other half were the frontline units without heavy weapons. The only thing that was difficult to take out was heavy infantry. I think it would have a hard time dealing with Death Guard now.
Now that I'm including tanks I just take 40 guys with only plasma guns as chaff to eat all the mortal wounds and keep out assault units.
Also, your math is a bit off, your tooled up squads are 56 points, not 52.
And bare bones squads supported with orders can actually do quite well against infantry, which is really all I need them to kill when I have 4 battle tanks and some artillery taking out everything else.
Is that math official now? Last time I checked YMDC points for guard squads with a heavy team was still unsettled.
I agree with you, though, against most infantry lasguns with FRSRF will roll enough dice to kill something.
40 pts base + 1 for boltgun + 7 for plasma gun + 8 for heavy bolter = 56. Haha one of us is missing something!
MrMoustaffa wrote: Dude I hate to be that guy but why are you doing this to yourself? Whoever has made this league has such a bone to pick with shooting armies that it sounds like they've done everything but say "Shooting isn't allowed". I would talk to this guy and tell him these missions are insane, if he has any idea of what balance is there's no way he can look at these scenarios and call them fair.
Forget IG for a moment, what would Tau do in this kind of scenario? They don't even get token melee units like guard does with Ogryn. I'm pretty sure it's actually impossible for them to win in this kind of scenario.
Well don't have other game available on the days and maybe it gets better. Funny thing is organizer is running shooty army himself and yesterday had to fend off ork horde.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Dude I hate to be that guy but why are you doing this to yourself? Whoever has made this league has such a bone to pick with shooting armies that it sounds like they've done everything but say "Shooting isn't allowed". I would talk to this guy and tell him these missions are insane, if he has any idea of what balance is there's no way he can look at these scenarios and call them fair.
Forget IG for a moment, what would Tau do in this kind of scenario? They don't even get token melee units like guard does with Ogryn. I'm pretty sure it's actually impossible for them to win in this kind of scenario.
Well don't have other game available on the days and maybe it gets better. Funny thing is organizer is running shooty army himself and yesterday had to fend off ork horde.
It might be worth checking to see if later scenarios will favour shooty more? Otherwise, at least you're playing and making friends.
I'd suggest this might even be a good scenario for mech - with twin flamer chimeras you can at least do good overwatch, then disembark and shoot with the contents next turn. It would also lower your drops considerably.
Anyone else feel like we might be getting beat down into middle tier?
The commissar nerf (urgh, wtf were they thinking making summary execution only benefit units that lost models to morale by a bad dice roll, while essentially adding a +1 to the rolls on high losses?) + the conscript pts increase killed the unit entirely, meltaguns went up in cost as though we were undecided whether or not plasma was better, and ratlings went up?
I look at other armies, tyranids especially (why are hiveguard the best LoS-ignoring artillery in the game? 36" range is hardly a crippling handicap to trade for the great value/point compared to something like a basilisk), and don't see what we can do better than they can. And everyone and their heretical mother can seemingly pile on -1 to hit buffs.
Maybe I just need someone to cheer me up? Now that summary executions don't bring a smile to my face. Otherwise maybe I'd grab some min GSC and run AM/GSC/Nids... help me stay pure!
Commissar_Rex wrote: Anyone else feel like we might be getting beat down into middle tier?
Not even slightly.
What's happened is the no-brainers which everyone went out and bought/abused have been beaten back into a bit more of a reasonable setup (albeit with GW's characteristic careless approach). Let's not get cute and pretend anyone in the world had more than a token investment in their conscript army, with perhaps the exception of persons with some exotic personalities.
We treadheads are yawning since we're still reducing 1/3rd of the enemy to radioactive fog every turn - with the expectation that we'll be eaten alive in close combat.
Guard still has the cheapest High Str High ROF and High AP weapons in the game, now at least there's a need to *think* about how to employ it instead of parking behind a mono-build wall of bodies and dragging the game down to a chore.
Commissar_Rex wrote: Anyone else feel like we might be getting beat down into middle tier?
The commissar nerf (urgh, wtf were they thinking making summary execution only benefit units that lost models to morale by a bad dice roll, while essentially adding a +1 to the rolls on high losses?) + the conscript pts increase killed the unit entirely, meltaguns went up in cost as though we were undecided whether or not plasma was better, and ratlings went up?
I look at other armies, tyranids especially (why are hiveguard the best LoS-ignoring artillery in the game? 36" range is hardly a crippling handicap to trade for the great value/point compared to something like a basilisk), and don't see what we can do better than they can. And everyone and their heretical mother can seemingly pile on -1 to hit buffs.
Maybe I just need someone to cheer me up? Now that summary executions don't bring a smile to my face. Otherwise maybe I'd grab some min GSC and run AM/GSC/Nids... help me stay pure!
Nope. In fact, my lists may be even better because now instead of messing about with Astropaths, Cyclops, Commissars, Ratlings, and Heavy Mortars, I'm now just ditching them completely and just running way more guardsmen and battle tanks. My lists are more boring and less varied, but just as deadly, if not more so.
The -1 to hit buffs are tough to deal with, but I think unless it is a Stygies FW list I can probably still just outshoot them.
Colonel Cross wrote: It depends. Pre codex when Leman Russes were garbage I was running pure infantry. Never lost a game. I ran half of my squads with boltguns, plasma guns, and Las cannons. The other half were the frontline units without heavy weapons. The only thing that was difficult to take out was heavy infantry. I think it would have a hard time dealing with Death Guard now.
Now that I'm including tanks I just take 40 guys with only plasma guns as chaff to eat all the mortal wounds and keep out assault units.
Also, your math is a bit off, your tooled up squads are 56 points, not 52.
And bare bones squads supported with orders can actually do quite well against infantry, which is really all I need them to kill when I have 4 battle tanks and some artillery taking out everything else.
Is that math official now? Last time I checked YMDC points for guard squads with a heavy team was still unsettled.
I agree with you, though, against most infantry lasguns with FRSRF will roll enough dice to kill something.
40 pts base + 1 for boltgun + 7 for plasma gun + 8 for heavy bolter = 56. Haha one of us is missing something!
Or both of us are Alternate take: Guard squad is 4 points per model. Squad with HWT is 9 models. So 4x9 = 36 base, +1 +7 +8 = 52. There was an FAQ somewhere that 'clarified' you don't pay extra points for the HWT, but it didn't actually clear up how many points you pay. so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Or both of us are Alternate take: Guard squad is 4 points per model. Squad with HWT is 9 models. So 4x9 = 36 base, +1 +7 +8 = 52. There was an FAQ somewhere that 'clarified' you don't pay extra points for the HWT, but it didn't actually clear up how many points you pay. so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I'm going to regret this, but the place where you get the points says that squad size is 10 models, so it's not unreasonable to assume that you pay for 10 models even if you only have 9, particularly since you bought 10, because it was your only option, and then made the decision to have two of them form a heavy weapon squad.
"This unit contains 1 Sergeant and 9 Guardsmen." Not 1 Sergeant and either 9 Guardsmen or 7 Guardsmen and a HWT.
You then choose to include a HWT which has the side effect of reducing the number of guardsmen as a wargear option.
It's not clarified in a FAQ, it's clarified on the points page in the Codex. "If models from these units form Heavy Weapons Teams, there is no additional points costs." Well, you don't have models to form a HWT until after you've paid the points for the models, right? Also, note the "additional" points. You have to pay the first set of points, but not any "additional".
Contrast Conscripts, which reads "This unit contains 20 Conscripts. It can include up to 10 additional Conscripts...".
The problem with that is that you don't pay for models "as you go", e.g. I pay for ten, then have 9, then buy a heavy weapon.
Otherwise, you'd have to pay for the Leman Russ, it's Battlecannon, it's Heavy Bolter, then its Executioner Cannon, then it's Lascannon. Because the Executioner Cannon says it replaces the battlecannon, so you had to buy the battlecannon first right?
Or both of us are Alternate take: Guard squad is 4 points per model. Squad with HWT is 9 models. So 4x9 = 36 base, +1 +7 +8 = 52. There was an FAQ somewhere that 'clarified' you don't pay extra points for the HWT, but it didn't actually clear up how many points you pay. so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I'm going to regret this, but the place where you get the points says that squad size is 10 models, so it's not unreasonable to assume that you pay for 10 models even if you only have 9, particularly since you bought 10, because it was your only option, and then made the decision to have two of them form a heavy weapon squad.
"This unit contains 1 Sergeant and 9 Guardsmen." Not 1 Sergeant and either 9 Guardsmen or 7 Guardsmen and a HWT.
You then choose to include a HWT which has the side effect of reducing the number of guardsmen as a wargear option.
It's not clarified in a FAQ, it's clarified on the points page in the Codex. "If models from these units form Heavy Weapons Teams, there is no additional points costs." Well, you don't have models to form a HWT until after you've paid the points for the models, right? Also, note the "additional" points. You have to pay the first set of points, but not any "additional".
Contrast Conscripts, which reads "This unit contains 20 Conscripts. It can include up to 10 additional Conscripts...".
Yeah, I'm not trying to re-open the whole debate, just wondering if GW has fully clarified it. I agree, yours is a perfectly valid interpretation, and quite likely RAI are 40 points regardless. But I still think it's ambiguous RAW.
I just checked all the FAQs for Index 2 and our codex and did not see anything about heavy weapons teams. But with the way things are evolving in 8th, it could be out there somewhere.
Unit1126PLL wrote: The problem with that is that you don't pay for models "as you go", e.g. I pay for ten, then have 9, then buy a heavy weapon.
Otherwise, you'd have to pay for the Leman Russ, it's Battlecannon, it's Heavy Bolter, then its Executioner Cannon, then it's Lascannon. Because the Executioner Cannon says it replaces the battlecannon, so you had to buy the battlecannon first right?
See? I was right! I regret it already!
My only thought is that it doesn't say that you replace two guardsmen with a HWT. It was that two guardsmen may form a HWT. That suggests that it must somehow be different from every other option that says to "replace", like the LRBT. Alternatively, you can't ever have a legal infantry squad with a HWT because it's impossible to buy one, because you can't use two guardmen for anything without actually having bought them in the first place. Same for storm troopers or space marines and their "For every five models..." rules. If you have an undefined number of models in the unit, how can you buy the weapons for every five of them?
Of course, there's nothing in the rules supporting either of these notions, nor anything in the rules I'm aware of that actually says you can use any of these codexes, or not use the codexes from any other edition, or not use a piece of paper that I've scrawled "Codecs: Mperial Gaurd" on. Here's also where I remind everyone that the damage statistic in DA ROOLZ actually says that it's the amount of damage you inflict upon a successful hit.
This isn't a serious debate other than just theory and pointing out sloppy writing right? It's brutally clear what RAI is here, otherwise an infantry squad with a mortar would only cost 1 more point than a barebones squad.
If people are taking infantry squads and seriously thinking they only need to pay for 9 guardsmen because there are 9 models I'm not even entirely sure how to react to that. That's a level of reaching I don't think I've ever seen before. Especially considering you still clearly have 10 men in the squad, it's just GW decided to treat IG heavy weapons in a really dumb fashion and it's interacted oddly with the rules ever since.
2 guardsmen may form a heavy weapons team. The heavy weapons team before weapons does not cost anything. Those two infantry models combine into one heavy weapon team, but they still had to be bought in the first place. All infantry squads would start at 40pts, then go from there. Meaning the cheapest option, squad with mortar, would be 45pts.
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Personally I think it works best in tandem with plasma Stormtroopers and tons of infantry spamming plasma. Basically make it where no matter what the opponent does, at least one method is hitting home. It's high 
