New codex I have to ask all you space marines fans out there defend your chapter master this is a no holds barred all CM in one arena free for all (not tabletop) by chapter masters I mean founding chapters, and successors no made up chapter masters. I would have to go with my chapter master Asterion Moloc of the Minotaurs with his Black Spear, storm shield, and termie armor his only competition would be Lysander but with his unwieldy thunder hammer would be to slow and get speared through the heart.
Tell how you think this free for all would play out and who would be the last man standing.
Calgar has an AP2 shooting attack and an Orbital Bombardment. He can dance around the other Chapter Masters and shoot them to death with nigh impunity.
Regarding Lysander vs. Moloc, as soon as Moloc takes a wound it's I1 for him too.
Apart from that I don't know all the forge world ones. The best of the codexes is probably Calgar, though Dante making one of the others have worse stats would be amusing.
Commander Dante stands a good chance, thought not having Eternal Warrior hurts in a world of S8 powerfists. Lowering stats by 1, from the Death Mask of Sanguinius (including -1 W!) and then possibly doing another wound with the Infernus pistol before charging in (Hammer of Wrath + 6 attacks on the charge, hitting on 3's with a reroll...Dante is a beast.
I think Chapter Master vs Chapter Master guarantees M.A.D.
Ill tell you who stands NO chance in a Chapter Master battle...
Gabriel Seth. his rending chainsword will need a incredible set of rolls to win the day.
I'm backing Logan all the way. The Old Wolf hasn't stood as The Great Wolf, Chapter Master of the Space Wolves for over 700 years for nothin. He could fight Calgar and all his cheese, inspire others to fight by his pure charisma, his axe of morkai wrecking Termis, Space Marine and most else in the universe along with being Eternal Warrior along with his special rules and saves and his wolf tooth necklace just means he'll be wrecking face all day everyday. Him and Dante I see fighting 1v1 when the smoke clears
Th0rh4mm3r wrote: Commander Dante stands a good chance, thought not having Eternal Warrior hurts in a world of S8 powerfists. Lowering stats by 1, from the Death Mask of Sanguinius (including -1 W!) and then possibly doing another wound with the Infernus pistol before charging in (Hammer of Wrath + 6 attacks on the charge, hitting on 3's with a reroll...Dante is a beast.
I think Chapter Master vs Chapter Master guarantees M.A.D.
Ill tell you who stands NO chance in a Chapter Master battle...
Gabriel Seth. his rending chainsword will need a incredible set of rolls to win the day.
Dante loses cos've the unwieldy special rule. He has to strike at init 1 with an axe and he doesn't get eternal warrior - so anyone with a powerfist can tiger uppercut him for the win.
Would Kantor stand a chance? I don't know his rules.
Kain wrote: Asterion Moloc kills them all for snubbing the high lords.
I agree with you completely, but I should have specified I don't mean tabletop I mean if they were truly to meet in combat like in the 40k universe.
Asterion is very skilled at killing other loyalist marines. And he can probably blast someone's skull out with the laser from his spear, jab another sucker in the head, then keep on going until he stands on a mound of space marines.
bigboss1o1 wrote: New codex I have to ask all you space marines fans out there defend your chapter master this is a no holds barred all CM in one arena free for all (not tabletop) by chapter masters I mean founding chapters, and successors no made up chapter masters. I would have to go with my chapter master Asterion Moloc of the Minotaurs with his Black Spear, storm shield, and termie armor his only competition would be Lysander but with his unwieldy thunder hammer would be to slow and get speared through the heart.
Tell how you think this free for all would play out and who would be the last man standing.
Sorry but Moloc doesn't even beat Logan nevermind Lysander or Calgar.
bigboss1o1 wrote: New codex I have to ask all you space marines fans out there defend your chapter master this is a no holds barred all CM in one arena free for all (not tabletop) by chapter masters I mean founding chapters, and successors no made up chapter masters. I would have to go with my chapter master Asterion Moloc of the Minotaurs with his Black Spear, storm shield, and termie armor his only competition would be Lysander but with his unwieldy thunder hammer would be to slow and get speared through the heart.
Tell how you think this free for all would play out and who would be the last man standing.
Sorry but Moloc doesn't even beat Logan nevermind Lysander or Calgar.
What Moloc would zap him in his uncovered face and not even think twice about it, the high lords of terra would stock there champion with the best equipment for a fight like this, and yet again Moloc is all about killing space marines......and necrons....crap he can kill anything lol.
bigboss1o1 wrote: New codex I have to ask all you space marines fans out there defend your chapter master this is a no holds barred all CM in one arena free for all (not tabletop) by chapter masters I mean founding chapters, and successors no made up chapter masters. I would have to go with my chapter master Asterion Moloc of the Minotaurs with his Black Spear, storm shield, and termie armor his only competition would be Lysander but with his unwieldy thunder hammer would be to slow and get speared through the heart.
Tell how you think this free for all would play out and who would be the last man standing.
Sorry but Moloc doesn't even beat Logan nevermind Lysander or Calgar.
What Moloc would zap him in his uncovered face and not even think twice about it, the high lords of terra would stock there champion with the best equipment for a fight like this, and yet again Moloc is all about killing space marines......and necrons....crap he can kill anything lol.
Fluff wise I still think Logan would own Moloc. Leman Russ' special ability was he could match any moves of any opponent he was up against while keeping his own skills and moves. This is some he passed onto his legion. Logan would have a field day with Moloc.
Also not to mention tabletop wise this is reflected. In the game Logan hands moloc his backside on a silver platter.
bigboss1o1 wrote: New codex I have to ask all you space marines fans out there defend your chapter master this is a no holds barred all CM in one arena free for all (not tabletop) by chapter masters I mean founding chapters, and successors no made up chapter masters. I would have to go with my chapter master Asterion Moloc of the Minotaurs with his Black Spear, storm shield, and termie armor his only competition would be Lysander but with his unwieldy thunder hammer would be to slow and get speared through the heart.
Tell how you think this free for all would play out and who would be the last man standing.
Sorry but Moloc doesn't even beat Logan nevermind Lysander or Calgar.
What Moloc would zap him in his uncovered face and not even think twice about it, the high lords of terra would stock there champion with the best equipment for a fight like this, and yet again Moloc is all about killing space marines......and necrons....crap he can kill anything lol.
Fluff wise I still think Logan would own Moloc. Leman Russ' special ability was he could match any moves of any opponent he was up against while keeping his own skills and moves. This is some he passed onto his legion. Logan would have a field day with Moloc.
Also not to mention tabletop wise this is reflected. In the game Logan hands Moloc his backside on a silver platter.
Fluffwise Space wolves are the specialist snowflakes of them all that can beat everyone and do anything and generally be the best at everything..
Fightingwise he's gotta deal with S6/AP2 I5 attacks while he has to use either S5/8 AP2 at I1, not to mention getting an S8 shot to the face beforehand, all the while Molac is getting rerolls on all 1's, while at the same time Molac is packing a Storm Shield so Logan is still fighting a 3++ still.
Not to mention Molac is slightly tougher, coming in with W4 over Logans W3.
bigboss1o1 wrote: New codex I have to ask all you space marines fans out there defend your chapter master this is a no holds barred all CM in one arena free for all (not tabletop) by chapter masters I mean founding chapters, and successors no made up chapter masters. I would have to go with my chapter master Asterion Moloc of the Minotaurs with his Black Spear, storm shield, and termie armor his only competition would be Lysander but with his unwieldy thunder hammer would be to slow and get speared through the heart.
Tell how you think this free for all would play out and who would be the last man standing.
Sorry but Moloc doesn't even beat Logan nevermind Lysander or Calgar.
What Moloc would zap him in his uncovered face and not even think twice about it, the high lords of terra would stock there champion with the best equipment for a fight like this, and yet again Moloc is all about killing space marines......and necrons....crap he can kill anything lol.
Fluff wise I still think Logan would own Moloc. Leman Russ' special ability was he could match any moves of any opponent he was up against while keeping his own skills and moves. This is some he passed onto his legion. Logan would have a field day with Moloc.
Also not to mention tabletop wise this is reflected. In the game Logan hands Moloc his backside on a silver platter.
Fluffwise Space wolves are the specialist snowflakes of them all that can beat everyone and do anything and generally be the best at everything..
Fightingwise he's gotta deal with S6/AP2 I5 attacks while he has to use either S5/8 AP2 at I1, not to mention getting an S8 shot to the face beforehand, all the while Molac is getting rerolls on all 1's, while at the same time Molac is packing a Storm Shield so Logan is still fighting a 3++ still.
Not to mention Molac is slightly tougher, coming in with W4 over Logans W3.
Moloc is AP2? I was under the impression that he was AP3. A guy down at my local store has Moloc and he couldn't show the Space Wolf player (With Logan) that Moloc was AP2. I had a glance at his rules as well and I couldn't see what was AP2 about him.
bigboss1o1 wrote: New codex I have to ask all you space marines fans out there defend your chapter master this is a no holds barred all CM in one arena free for all (not tabletop) by chapter masters I mean founding chapters, and successors no made up chapter masters. I would have to go with my chapter master Asterion Moloc of the Minotaurs with his Black Spear, storm shield, and termie armor his only competition would be Lysander but with his unwieldy thunder hammer would be to slow and get speared through the heart.
Tell how you think this free for all would play out and who would be the last man standing.
Sorry but Moloc doesn't even beat Logan nevermind Lysander or Calgar.
What Moloc would zap him in his uncovered face and not even think twice about it, the high lords of terra would stock there champion with the best equipment for a fight like this, and yet again Moloc is all about killing space marines......and necrons....crap he can kill anything lol.
Fluff wise I still think Logan would own Moloc. Leman Russ' special ability was he could match any moves of any opponent he was up against while keeping his own skills and moves. This is some he passed onto his legion. Logan would have a field day with Moloc.
Also not to mention tabletop wise this is reflected. In the game Logan hands Moloc his backside on a silver platter.
Fluffwise Space wolves are the specialist snowflakes of them all that can beat everyone and do anything and generally be the best at everything..
Fightingwise he's gotta deal with S6/AP2 I5 attacks while he has to use either S5/8 AP2 at I1, not to mention getting an S8 shot to the face beforehand, all the while Molac is getting rerolls on all 1's, while at the same time Molac is packing a Storm Shield so Logan is still fighting a 3++ still.
Not to mention Molac is slightly tougher, coming in with W4 over Logans W3.
Moloc is AP2? I was under the impression that he was AP3. A guy down at my local store has Moloc and he couldn't show the Space Wolf player (With Logan) that Moloc was AP2. I had a glance at his rules as well and I couldn't see what was AP2 about him.
When did this happen? In the current IA:12 TFOO (The fall of orpheus), he has the special Relic Blade: The Black Spear. Which is S6/AP2, Melee, Specialist Weapon. With a single shot S8/AP2 lasbeam.
bigboss1o1 wrote: New codex I have to ask all you space marines fans out there defend your chapter master this is a no holds barred all CM in one arena free for all (not tabletop) by chapter masters I mean founding chapters, and successors no made up chapter masters. I would have to go with my chapter master Asterion Moloc of the Minotaurs with his Black Spear, storm shield, and termie armor his only competition would be Lysander but with his unwieldy thunder hammer would be to slow and get speared through the heart.
Tell how you think this free for all would play out and who would be the last man standing.
Sorry but Moloc doesn't even beat Logan nevermind Lysander or Calgar.
What Moloc would zap him in his uncovered face and not even think twice about it, the high lords of terra would stock there champion with the best equipment for a fight like this, and yet again Moloc is all about killing space marines......and necrons....crap he can kill anything lol.
Fluff wise I still think Logan would own Moloc. Leman Russ' special ability was he could match any moves of any opponent he was up against while keeping his own skills and moves. This is some he passed onto his legion. Logan would have a field day with Moloc.
Also not to mention tabletop wise this is reflected. In the game Logan hands Moloc his backside on a silver platter.
Fluffwise Space wolves are the specialist snowflakes of them all that can beat everyone and do anything and generally be the best at everything..
Fightingwise he's gotta deal with S6/AP2 I5 attacks while he has to use either S5/8 AP2 at I1, not to mention getting an S8 shot to the face beforehand, all the while Molac is getting rerolls on all 1's, while at the same time Molac is packing a Storm Shield so Logan is still fighting a 3++ still.
Not to mention Molac is slightly tougher, coming in with W4 over Logans W3.
Moloc is AP2? I was under the impression that he was AP3. A guy down at my local store has Moloc and he couldn't show the Space Wolf player (With Logan) that Moloc was AP2. I had a glance at his rules as well and I couldn't see what was AP2 about him.
When did this happen? In the current IA:12 TFOO (The fall of orpheus), he has the special Relic Blade: The Black Spear. Which is S6/AP2, Melee, Specialist Weapon. With a single shot S8/AP2 lasbeam.
I don't know. I'll need to check with my friend again. He has the book and model for it. Like I said I only got a glimpse of the rules. If what you say is true then they could have played that dual out wrong.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: He might've been thinking of a Standard Relic Blade, which is indeed AP3.
Gotta remember that Molac wields a special one that Custodians used.
Fair enough, I'll have a look at his profile the next time I get a chance. When I looked at it I don't remember seeing an entry for his CCW, like you do in the new codices. I'm not sure what Imperial Armour book he was using.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: He might've been thinking of a Standard Relic Blade, which is indeed AP3.
Gotta remember that Molac wields a special one that Custodians used.
Fair enough, I'll have a look at his profile the next time I get a chance. When I looked at it I don't remember seeing an entry for his CCW, like you do in the new codices. I'm not sure what Imperial Armour book he was using.
Well his newest one has it under the Chapter Tactics, before Dark Fury, and to the left of Orbital Bombardment.
Moloc kills Logan for flaunting the High lords, Moloc kills Azrael for flaunting the inquisition, Moloc kills Calgar for running his own fiefdom, Moloc kills Kantor for having too few marines, Moloc kills Gabriel for being the successor of a heretic, Moloc kills *everyone*.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Calgar has an AP2 shooting attack and an Orbital Bombardment. He can dance around the other Chapter Masters and shoot them to death with nigh impunity.
Regarding Lysander vs. Moloc, as soon as Moloc takes a wound it's I1 for him too.
Lord Asterion Moloc Can trump his dancing albeit his spear is a 1 shot Str8 ap2, but he has an orbital bombardment
doesn't anyone think amidst the free-for-all the others would realize moloc, being the greatest threat, needs to be put down and immediately double-triple-quadrouple team him? its not gonna be pokemon style 1V1 battle until one dies then reset and go with a different, theyd group up and feth the guy over *really* fast
bigboss1o1 wrote: New codex I have to ask all you space marines fans out there defend your chapter master this is a no holds barred all CM in one arena free for all (not tabletop) by chapter masters I mean founding chapters, and successors no made up chapter masters. I would have to go with my chapter master Asterion Moloc of the Minotaurs with his Black Spear, storm shield, and termie armor his only competition would be Lysander but with his unwieldy thunder hammer would be to slow and get speared through the heart.
Tell how you think this free for all would play out and who would be the last man standing.
Sorry but Moloc doesn't even beat Logan nevermind Lysander or Calgar.
What Moloc would zap him in his uncovered face and not even think twice about it, the high lords of terra would stock there champion with the best equipment for a fight like this, and yet again Moloc is all about killing space marines......and necrons....crap he can kill anything lol.
Fluff wise I still think Logan would own Moloc. Leman Russ' special ability was he could match any moves of any opponent he was up against while keeping his own skills and moves. This is some he passed onto his legion. Logan would have a field day with Moloc.
Also not to mention tabletop wise this is reflected. In the game Logan hands Moloc his backside on a silver platter.
Fluffwise Space wolves are the specialist snowflakes of them all that can beat everyone and do anything and generally be the best at everything..
Fightingwise he's gotta deal with S6/AP2 I5 attacks while he has to use either S5/8 AP2 at I1, not to mention getting an S8 shot to the face beforehand, all the while Molac is getting rerolls on all 1's, while at the same time Molac is packing a Storm Shield so Logan is still fighting a 3++ still.
Not to mention Molac is slightly tougher, coming in with W4 over Logans W3.
Thatguyhsagun wrote: doesn't anyone think amidst the free-for-all the others would realize moloc, being the greatest threat, needs to be put down and immediately double-triple-quadrouple team him? its not gonna be pokemon style 1V1 battle until one dies then reset and go with a different, theyd group up and feth the guy over *really* fast
Not until Moloc has left a pile of dead and obviously disloyal chapter masters behind him.
My own homebrew chapter master Awsumus Badassius who was recruited from the planet of Marysupiter, which has is 10000 times the size of Terra, hence meaning he grew up on a planet with 10000 times the Gravity on Earth and is therefore 100 times stronger than any other marine. His armour is also formed from specialist matierials found on his homeworld that are entirely indestructable, and his special thunder hammer "Snowflake" freezes the foe below Absolute Zero and is super light. He is also an Alpha+ Psyker and completely mindrapes Eldrad at chess.
In all seriousness, I'd have to throw my vote to Moloc too, but give honourable mentions to Grimnar, Tyberos of the Carcharadons, and possibly Gabriel Angelos. Its not everyone who wields a Nemesis Daemon Hammer outside the GK, or goes mano-a-mano with a Khorne Psyker Daemon Prince and comes out on top.
Sasa0mg wrote: He would find a doorway and bottle neck them :/ where they would be forced into a 1 v 1 display of skill in which numbers would mean for naught!
Wait, this isn't 300.
Then again, as close as it gets in the 40K universe xD
They would all then take a few paces back and shoot him to death with bolts/plasma/melta/hellfire rounds. Maybe even a smart CM would be in termie armor toting around an assault cannon like a boss.
Sasa0mg wrote: He would find a doorway and bottle neck them :/ where they would be forced into a 1 v 1 display of skill in which numbers would mean for naught!
Wait, this isn't 300.
Then again, as close as it gets in the 40K universe xD
They would all then take a few paces back and shoot him to death with bolts/plasma/melta/hellfire rounds. Maybe even a smart CM would be in termie armor toting around an assault cannon like a boss.
With his 2+/3+ thats a strategy that could take some time.
Sasa0mg wrote: He would find a doorway and bottle neck them :/ where they would be forced into a 1 v 1 display of skill in which numbers would mean for naught!
Wait, this isn't 300.
Then again, as close as it gets in the 40K universe xD
They would all then take a few paces back and shoot him to death with bolts/plasma/melta/hellfire rounds. Maybe even a smart CM would be in termie armor toting around an assault cannon like a boss.
With his 2+/3+ thats a strategy that could take some time.
AP2 on plenty of them means hes gotta rely on that shield to keep him moving. plus while hes in the corner he gets 1 shot to kill (if he hasnt used it) then dies like an animal.
That one shot would do a good job at 1 shotting those that aren't un-instant killable. That said I'm sure he would just rush out of that corner like a bull after he realizes no ones going to walk over to fight him.
Sasa0mg wrote: Course, and I'm sure Abaddon might tip the scale a little xD
Abaddon would make mincemeat of any Chapter Master, but then again he is a Legion Commander rather than Chapter Master. Any other Legion Commander would pulp him in a heartbeat.
Apart from that I don't know all the forge world ones. The best of the codexes is probably Calgar, though Dante making one of the others have worse stats would be amusing.
Given the stats that Lysander has as a Captain, makes you wonder what CM Pugh would look like on paper.
Apart from that I don't know all the forge world ones. The best of the codexes is probably Calgar, though Dante making one of the others have worse stats would be amusing.
Given the stats that Lysander has as a Captain, makes you wonder what CM Pugh would look like on paper.
Sasa0mg wrote: Course, and I'm sure Abaddon might tip the scale a little xD
Abaddon would make mincemeat of any Chapter Master, but then again he is a Legion Commander rather than Chapter Master. Any other Legion Commander would pulp him in a heartbeat.
Abadoodoo has failed 13 times to take terra I mean come on man you have the powers of chaos at your disposal all 4 gods no less, go home Abaddon your drunk.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: He might've been thinking of a Standard Relic Blade, which is indeed AP3.
Gotta remember that Molac wields a special one that Custodians used.
Fair enough, I'll have a look at his profile the next time I get a chance. When I looked at it I don't remember seeing an entry for his CCW, like you do in the new codices. I'm not sure what Imperial Armour book he was using.
Well his newest one has it under the Chapter Tactics, before Dark Fury, and to the left of Orbital Bombardment.
Yeah, I had a look. His old profile in The Badab War Part 2 Imperial Armour 10 is the entry that doesn't have his AP2 spear. Obviously he was using that.
bigboss1o1 wrote: New codex I have to ask all you space marines fans out there defend your chapter master this is a no holds barred all CM in one arena free for all (not tabletop) by chapter masters I mean founding chapters, and successors no made up chapter masters. I would have to go with my chapter master Asterion Moloc of the Minotaurs with his Black Spear, storm shield, and termie armor his only competition would be Lysander but with his unwieldy thunder hammer would be to slow and get speared through the heart.
Tell how you think this free for all would play out and who would be the last man standing.
Sorry but Moloc doesn't even beat Logan nevermind Lysander or Calgar.
What Moloc would zap him in his uncovered face and not even think twice about it, the high lords of terra would stock there champion with the best equipment for a fight like this, and yet again Moloc is all about killing space marines......and necrons....crap he can kill anything lol.
Fluff wise I still think Logan would own Moloc. Leman Russ' special ability was he could match any moves of any opponent he was up against while keeping his own skills and moves. This is some he passed onto his legion. Logan would have a field day with Moloc.
Also not to mention tabletop wise this is reflected. In the game Logan hands Moloc his backside on a silver platter.
Fluffwise Space wolves are the specialist snowflakes of them all that can beat everyone and do anything and generally be the best at everything..
Fightingwise he's gotta deal with S6/AP2 I5 attacks while he has to use either S5/8 AP2 at I1, not to mention getting an S8 shot to the face beforehand, all the while Molac is getting rerolls on all 1's, while at the same time Molac is packing a Storm Shield so Logan is still fighting a 3++ still.
Not to mention Molac is slightly tougher, coming in with W4 over Logans W3.
And with that my point is proven.
Only tabletop wise. Logan would still have him in the fluff. I was unaware of his current rules and apparently so is my friend who actually uses him.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: He might've been thinking of a Standard Relic Blade, which is indeed AP3.
Gotta remember that Molac wields a special one that Custodians used.
Fair enough, I'll have a look at his profile the next time I get a chance. When I looked at it I don't remember seeing an entry for his CCW, like you do in the new codices. I'm not sure what Imperial Armour book he was using.
Well his newest one has it under the Chapter Tactics, before Dark Fury, and to the left of Orbital Bombardment.
Yeah, I had a look. His old profile in The Badab War Part 2 Imperial Armour 10 is the entry that doesn't have his AP2 spear. Obviously he was using that.
bigboss1o1 wrote: New codex I have to ask all you space marines fans out there defend your chapter master this is a no holds barred all CM in one arena free for all (not tabletop) by chapter masters I mean founding chapters, and successors no made up chapter masters. I would have to go with my chapter master Asterion Moloc of the Minotaurs with his Black Spear, storm shield, and termie armor his only competition would be Lysander but with his unwieldy thunder hammer would be to slow and get speared through the heart.
Tell how you think this free for all would play out and who would be the last man standing.
Sorry but Moloc doesn't even beat Logan nevermind Lysander or Calgar.
What Moloc would zap him in his uncovered face and not even think twice about it, the high lords of terra would stock there champion with the best equipment for a fight like this, and yet again Moloc is all about killing space marines......and necrons....crap he can kill anything lol.
Fluff wise I still think Logan would own Moloc. Leman Russ' special ability was he could match any moves of any opponent he was up against while keeping his own skills and moves. This is some he passed onto his legion. Logan would have a field day with Moloc.
Also not to mention tabletop wise this is reflected. In the game Logan hands Moloc his backside on a silver platter.
Fluffwise Space wolves are the specialist snowflakes of them all that can beat everyone and do anything and generally be the best at everything..
Fightingwise he's gotta deal with S6/AP2 I5 attacks while he has to use either S5/8 AP2 at I1, not to mention getting an S8 shot to the face beforehand, all the while Molac is getting rerolls on all 1's, while at the same time Molac is packing a Storm Shield so Logan is still fighting a 3++ still.
Not to mention Molac is slightly tougher, coming in with W4 over Logans W3.
And with that my point is proven.
Only tabletop wise. Logan would still have him in the fluff. I was unaware of his current rules and apparently so is my friend who actually uses him.
I quote your disagreement, with my disagreement I say Moloc fluff wise still has him he ruined a necron lord (no easy feat as we all know) and destroys any space marines chaos or otherwise he and his chapter faces. That and Moloc cant die he can be killed but another takes his place he's not a person he's a legend.
I quote your disagreement, with my disagreement I say Moloc fluff wise still has him he ruined a necron lord (no easy feat as we all know) and destroys any space marines chaos or otherwise he and his chapter faces. That and Moloc cant die he can be killed but another takes his place he's not a person he's a legend.
Really? Calgar? Dante? Logan? They chuckle at the cute little bedtime stories of Moloc. He doesn't even scratch the surface on the bronze plate mounted to the pedestal of their titanic monuments of multiple legendary stands.
Fluff wise:
Calgar hunted down and killed the Swarmlord with his bare hands... Moloc? Cute, you beat up on some wayward chapter masters (and never finished the deed with Huron, way to go )
Dante is a legend beyond legends. He'll save the Emperor himself some day and just staring at Moloc sternly will make the Minotaur feel weak and inadequate.
Logan's met other Lord of Terra bootlicking Chapter Masters before... and cleaved them in twain... Moloc's just another notch in Morkai
Fluffwise, Moloc is a first rate, second rate Chapter Master.
That is true, Logan has killed a GK Grand Master. And the new fluff pretty much states that GK are better than their regular counterparts.
Don't forget though that Calgar had his ass handed to him on a silver platter by the Swarmlord the first time they met (BfM) and unless I've missed a major Nid Novel, the story where he bests Swarmlord trough Drop Pod Assault was just a WD article.
Either way, Dante thinks he may be the one the prophecy speaks of but it is just as likely to be the Sanguinor or whomever succeeds Dante. Its a long way off.
Either way, Moloc has beaten many more CMs than any other has.
Fluffwise, what's Tu'shan have going on? He's supposed to be one of the strongest CMs around.
I've seen some models with him carrying a thunderhammer, plus his cloak made of Drake Scales. I think I read some homebrew rules where because of his strength he could use his TH at initiative.
I don't know if he's got actual rules in any books though. But fluffwise he's got to be up there.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: He might've been thinking of a Standard Relic Blade, which is indeed AP3.
Gotta remember that Molac wields a special one that Custodians used.
Fair enough, I'll have a look at his profile the next time I get a chance. When I looked at it I don't remember seeing an entry for his CCW, like you do in the new codices. I'm not sure what Imperial Armour book he was using.
Well his newest one has it under the Chapter Tactics, before Dark Fury, and to the left of Orbital Bombardment.
Yeah, I had a look. His old profile in The Badab War Part 2 Imperial Armour 10 is the entry that doesn't have his AP2 spear. Obviously he was using that.
bigboss1o1 wrote: New codex I have to ask all you space marines fans out there defend your chapter master this is a no holds barred all CM in one arena free for all (not tabletop) by chapter masters I mean founding chapters, and successors no made up chapter masters. I would have to go with my chapter master Asterion Moloc of the Minotaurs with his Black Spear, storm shield, and termie armor his only competition would be Lysander but with his unwieldy thunder hammer would be to slow and get speared through the heart.
Tell how you think this free for all would play out and who would be the last man standing.
Sorry but Moloc doesn't even beat Logan nevermind Lysander or Calgar.
What Moloc would zap him in his uncovered face and not even think twice about it, the high lords of terra would stock there champion with the best equipment for a fight like this, and yet again Moloc is all about killing space marines......and necrons....crap he can kill anything lol.
Fluff wise I still think Logan would own Moloc. Leman Russ' special ability was he could match any moves of any opponent he was up against while keeping his own skills and moves. This is some he passed onto his legion. Logan would have a field day with Moloc.
Also not to mention tabletop wise this is reflected. In the game Logan hands Moloc his backside on a silver platter.
Fluffwise Space wolves are the specialist snowflakes of them all that can beat everyone and do anything and generally be the best at everything..
Fightingwise he's gotta deal with S6/AP2 I5 attacks while he has to use either S5/8 AP2 at I1, not to mention getting an S8 shot to the face beforehand, all the while Molac is getting rerolls on all 1's, while at the same time Molac is packing a Storm Shield so Logan is still fighting a 3++ still.
Not to mention Molac is slightly tougher, coming in with W4 over Logans W3.
And with that my point is proven.
Only tabletop wise. Logan would still have him in the fluff. I was unaware of his current rules and apparently so is my friend who actually uses him.
I quote your disagreement, with my disagreement I say Moloc fluff wise still has him he ruined a necron lord (no easy feat as we all know) and destroys any space marines chaos or otherwise he and his chapter faces. That and Moloc cant die he can be killed but another takes his place he's not a person he's a legend.
If someone else takes his place then the person who replaces him will take their own abilities with them. I don't see how that is an argument to say how awesome he is. We're talking about Logan Grimnar here.
Grimnar is believed by some observers to be one of the most powerful warriors in the Imperium, greater even than other Space Marine Chapter Masters such as Lord Commander Dante of the Blood Angels, Supreme Grand Master Azrael of the Dark Angels, and even Lord Marneus Calgar of the feared Ultramarines.
and also this:
At the cost of many Grey Knights' lives, the Space Wolves and the people of Armageddon were able to banish Angron and his devoted followers of the Blood God back to the Warp. With the defeat of their leader, the remaining forces of Chaos were quickly crushed by the Imperials.
If a Daemon Primarch such as Angron and his crew can't get past Logan then I don't see how Moloc is supposed to.
bigboss1o1 wrote: New codex I have to ask all you space marines fans out there defend your chapter master this is a no holds barred all CM in one arena free for all (not tabletop) by chapter masters I mean founding chapters, and successors no made up chapter masters. I would have to go with my chapter master Asterion Moloc of the Minotaurs with his Black Spear, storm shield, and termie armor his only competition would be Lysander but with his unwieldy thunder hammer would be to slow and get speared through the heart.
Tell how you think this free for all would play out and who would be the last man standing.
Sorry but Moloc doesn't even beat Logan nevermind Lysander or Calgar.
What Moloc would zap him in his uncovered face and not even think twice about it, the high lords of terra would stock there champion with the best equipment for a fight like this, and yet again Moloc is all about killing space marines......and necrons....crap he can kill anything lol.
Fluff wise I still think Logan would own Moloc. Leman Russ' special ability was he could match any moves of any opponent he was up against while keeping his own skills and moves. This is some he passed onto his legion. Logan would have a field day with Moloc.
Also not to mention tabletop wise this is reflected. In the game Logan hands Moloc his backside on a silver platter.
Fluffwise Space wolves are the specialist snowflakes of them all that can beat everyone and do anything and generally be the best at everything..
As opposed to Asterion "I beat everyone because HURR!!" Moloc? Please. I hate Space Wolf fluff just as much as everyone else, but Logan's been the Great Wolf for 700 years.
Regardless, if we're going to start using fluff then Helbrecht wins, because the Black Templars battlefleet is bigger than that of other known Chapters. Martial skill means little when you're being shot by a Cyclonic Torpedo from orbit. On a more serious note, if we're talking fluff-wise then Dante would probably win, seeing as he's got 1100+ years of experience.
bigboss1o1 wrote: New codex I have to ask all you space marines fans out there defend your chapter master this is a no holds barred all CM in one arena free for all (not tabletop) by chapter masters I mean founding chapters, and successors no made up chapter masters. I would have to go with my chapter master Asterion Moloc of the Minotaurs with his Black Spear, storm shield, and termie armor his only competition would be Lysander but with his unwieldy thunder hammer would be to slow and get speared through the heart.
Tell how you think this free for all would play out and who would be the last man standing.
Sorry but Moloc doesn't even beat Logan nevermind Lysander or Calgar.
What Moloc would zap him in his uncovered face and not even think twice about it, the high lords of terra would stock there champion with the best equipment for a fight like this, and yet again Moloc is all about killing space marines......and necrons....crap he can kill anything lol.
Fluff wise I still think Logan would own Moloc. Leman Russ' special ability was he could match any moves of any opponent he was up against while keeping his own skills and moves. This is some he passed onto his legion. Logan would have a field day with Moloc.
Also not to mention tabletop wise this is reflected. In the game Logan hands Moloc his backside on a silver platter.
Fluffwise Space wolves are the specialist snowflakes of them all that can beat everyone and do anything and generally be the best at everything..
As opposed to Asterion "I beat everyone because HURR!!" Moloc? Please. The Minotaurs are the only Chapter in existence that actually match the Space Wolves in hubris, because they just keep winning and being Space Marines +1 all the time. The Dark Angels lose sometimes, Blood Angels lose sometimes, Black Templars lose sometimes, even Ultramarines lose sometimes, but both Space Wolves and Minotaurs just kill stuff all the time.
For the record, I hate Space Wolf fluff just as much as everyone else, but Logan's been the Great Wolf for 700 years. As much as it pains me to say, I'm on the Space Wolf side of this one.
Regardless, if we're going to start using fluff then Helbrecht wins, because the Black Templars battlefleet is bigger than that of other known Chapters. Martial skill means little when you're being shot by a Cyclonic Torpedo from orbit. On a more serious note, if we're talking fluff-wise then Dante would probably win, seeing as he's got 1100+ years of experience.
At the cost of many Grey Knights' lives, the Space Wolves and the people of Armageddon were able to banish Angron and his devoted followers of the Blood God back to the Warp. With the defeat of their leader, the remaining forces of Chaos were quickly crushed by the Imperials.
If a Daemon Primarch such as Angron and his crew can't get past Logan then I don't see how Moloc is supposed to.
It wasn't Logan they couldn't get past, it was Aurelian and his 100 Grey Knight Terminators, of whom around a dozen survived.
Grimnar is believed by some observers to be one of the most powerful warriors in the Imperium, greater even than other Space Marine Chapter Masters such as Lord Commander Dante of the Blood Angels, Supreme Grand Master Azrael of the Dark Angels, and even Lord Marneus Calgar of the feared Ultramarines.
Never, ever quote Warhammer wikia if you don't have a secondary source supporting the claim. It explicitly allows fan-made fluff and portrays it as official.
Oh, dear... didn't realise we were talking in fluff rather than game rules. In which case, I present Draigo, with his magical sparkly 2+/2++ rerollable plot armour that always adds 1 to the result.
I fail to see how helbrecht can be the best when he lost his hand to a necron overlord that was hardly trying.
Could Vulkan be the best? I thought there was a book recemtly released that basically made him invulnerable (he has regeneration like wolverine or something whacko like that)
Sasa0mg wrote: Course, and I'm sure Abaddon might tip the scale a little xD
Abaddon would make mincemeat of any Chapter Master, but then again he is a Legion Commander rather than Chapter Master. Any other Legion Commander would pulp him in a heartbeat.
Abadoodoo has failed 13 times to take terra I mean come on man you have the powers of chaos at your disposal all 4 gods no less, go home Abaddon your drunk.
I'm not a chaos player...BUT DEM BE FIGHTEN WORDS MY GOOD SIR!!!!!
I fail to see how helbrecht can be the best when he lost his hand to a necron overlord that was hardly trying.
Could Vulkan be the best? I thought there was a book recemtly released that basically made him invulnerable (he has regeneration like wolverine or something whacko like that)
vilkan is forgefather, not chapter master. Thatd be Tu'Shaun. Supposed to be immensely powerful even for a marine and tote a TH and some melta weaponry on top of a drake-scale cloak.
This thread has made it clear for one thing at least....the Minotaurs are CLEARLY Forge World's own personal "special Snowflake", much like the Space Pups are GW's.
Reminds me of that song, "Anything you can do, I can do better!"
Basically, from a fluff perspective, the Moo-Cows are the 40K version of the 30K Space Pups. Both filled the exact same role.
From a game perspective, I'd say Calgar is going to paste the other CM in a one-on-one duel. I wished Pedro was a bit better instead of just a way to get scoring sternguard.
As opposed to Asterion "I beat everyone because HURR!!" Moloc? Please. The Minotaurs are the only Chapter in existence that actually match the Space Wolves in hubris, because they just keep winning and being Space Marines +1 all the time. The Dark Angels lose sometimes, Blood Angels lose sometimes, Black Templars lose sometimes, even Ultramarines lose sometimes, but both Space Wolves and Minotaurs just kill stuff all the time.
Mainly because they fight other marines and renegades most of the time, but thats the thing, they are absolutely hated. They hate everyone else, they gladly murder other marines, and they do so with relish, not to mention the fact that many of the lower marines are pulled from poor stock due to the fact they want their recruitment to be pretty high, even if they can arm them with the finest the High lords can grant them.
And the thing they are best at? Killing other space marines, unlike space wolves having the best scouts, the best psykers (that aren't real psykers hurrr), the best fighters, their fighters can whip everyone in both the Imperium, Chaos, and Xenos while being drunk off poisons from their planet and yet still be the good guys, yet at the same time be conflicted over murdering other marines for being the Emporers lapdog.
The Minotaurs best thing? Killing space marines, which is actually represented in some manner, the only other time we've seen them fight much else is Necrons and they had backup.
@Deadshot. The BoM got a bit of a rewrite in the new dex. Calgar does much better against Swarmy the first time. Is in good enough shape afterward to command the fleet action, destroying the hive fleet. He then hunts down the swarmlord and kills it with his "bare hands".
Quite a bit more impressive than before (someone thinks Calgar is their Mary Sue methinks).
I don't like this topic, because Azrael has no feats of strength due to dark angels secrecy. In the fluff I've read Belial has more feats of strength that Azrael.
Niexist wrote: I don't like this topic, because Azrael has no feats of strength due to dark angels secrecy. In the fluff I've read Belial has more feats of strength that Azrael.
I will say, for the DA a cunning mind at the helm probably makes more sense than a thick arm... Though that doesn't help much in TTG stats.
Niexist wrote: I don't like this topic, because Azrael has no feats of strength due to dark angels secrecy. In the fluff I've read Belial has more feats of strength that Azrael.
I will say, for the DA a cunning mind at the helm probably makes more sense than a thick arm... Though that doesn't help much in TTG stats.
Does that mean we have the smartest/most cunning chapter master? WE WIN AT SOMETHING HA!!
Moloc did not simply beat some other space marine chapter he decimated them, killed there chapter master, and took all there stuff they left behind and uses it! As said in the Badab war book the minotaurs were the deciding factor for victory of that war.
Th0rh4mm3r wrote: Commander Dante stands a good chance, thought not having Eternal Warrior hurts in a world of S8 powerfists. Lowering stats by 1, from the Death Mask of Sanguinius (including -1 W!) and then possibly doing another wound with the Infernus pistol before charging in (Hammer of Wrath + 6 attacks on the charge, hitting on 3's with a reroll...Dante is a beast.
I think Chapter Master vs Chapter Master guarantees M.A.D.
Ill tell you who stands NO chance in a Chapter Master battle...
Gabriel Seth. his rending chainsword will need a incredible set of rolls to win the day.
Dante loses cos've the unwieldy special rule. He has to strike at init 1 with an axe and he doesn't get eternal warrior - so anyone with a powerfist can tiger uppercut him for the win.
Would Kantor stand a chance? I don't know his rules.
He said NON-table top. Which means Dante has a way better chance than you think. After 1000+ years im pretty sure he knows how to use his axe.
Lobukia wrote: @Deadshot. The BoM got a bit of a rewrite in the new dex. Calgar does much better against Swarmy the first time. Is in good enough shape afterward to command the fleet action, destroying the hive fleet. He then hunts down the swarmlord and kills it with his "bare hands".
Quite a bit more impressive than before (someone thinks Calgar is their Mary Sue methinks).
Well there's the problem, a complete retcon. In the Nid Dex it states the Swarmlord kicked his blue backside so badly it wasn't even funny and sent him away with his tail between his legs, on the brink of death and would've died if the Chapter Champion hadn't sacrificed himself to save him, and then was stuck commanding the space battle due to injuries.
Lobukia wrote: @Deadshot. The BoM got a bit of a rewrite in the new dex. Calgar does much better against Swarmy the first time. Is in good enough shape afterward to command the fleet action, destroying the hive fleet. He then hunts down the swarmlord and kills it with his "bare hands".
Quite a bit more impressive than before (someone thinks Calgar is their Mary Sue methinks).
Well there's the problem, a complete retcon. In the Nid Dex it states the Swarmlord kicked his blue backside so badly it wasn't even funny and sent him away with his tail between his legs, on the brink of death and would've died if the Chapter Champion hadn't sacrificed himself to save him, and then was stuck commanding the space battle due to injuries.
Psst, that Swarmlord is always exaggerating things.
Th0rh4mm3r wrote: Commander Dante stands a good chance, thought not having Eternal Warrior hurts in a world of S8 powerfists. Lowering stats by 1, from the Death Mask of Sanguinius (including -1 W!) and then possibly doing another wound with the Infernus pistol before charging in (Hammer of Wrath + 6 attacks on the charge, hitting on 3's with a reroll...Dante is a beast.
I think Chapter Master vs Chapter Master guarantees M.A.D.
Ill tell you who stands NO chance in a Chapter Master battle...
Gabriel Seth. his rending chainsword will need a incredible set of rolls to win the day.
Dante loses cos've the unwieldy special rule. He has to strike at init 1 with an axe and he doesn't get eternal warrior - so anyone with a powerfist can tiger uppercut him for the win.
Would Kantor stand a chance? I don't know his rules.
He said NON-table top. Which means Dante has a way better chance than you think. After 1000+ years im pretty sure he knows how to use his axe.
Dude, you're like 2 pages too late to start correcting stuff My post was only a response to the above anyway. EDIT:And the OP changed his OP - halfway down the first page, he says
Kain wrote: Asterion Moloc kills them all for snubbing the high lords.
I agree with you completely, but I should have specified I don't mean tabletop I mean if they were truly to meet in combat like in the 40k universe.
Dante has been chapter master for 1100 years - which means he's even older than that. He's one of the oldest living marines in the imperium (if not the oldest - not counting dreads)
I think Dante has as good a chance as anyone in the fluff.
I'm really not anti-dante
I've put together a list of chapter masters that I've heard of (so they must be fairly well known )
Dante
Calgar
Kantor
Moloc
Grimnar
Tu-shan
Zachariah Kersh
Vladimir Pugh
Lord Magyar
Carab Culln
Sarpedon - technically renegade, but still a chapter master iirc. And half spider/half man and a psyker to boot...
Jubal Khan
So are we still thinking one of the big three will win?
Calgar, Dante or Grimnar?
I've always wondered why Pugh and Tu-shan never got as much recognition as Dante, Calgar or Grimnar. They're all first founding chapters. But these two don't even have profiles/stats. Its not fair...
I fail to see how helbrecht can be the best when he lost his hand to a necron overlord that was hardly trying.
Could Vulkan be the best? I thought there was a book recemtly released that basically made him invulnerable (he has regeneration like wolverine or something whacko like that)
How to spot someone who didn't read the post he's responding to 101... As I said, martial prowess is irrelevant when you have the Chapter Fleet of the Black Templars blowing the planet you're stood on to pieces.
For the record, Helbrecht won the rematch against Imotekh. I'm not seriously saying he'd win in a melee (which you'd know if you'd actually read my post) though. My money's on Dante or Logan.
Dante
Calgar
Kantor
Moloc
Grimnar
Tu-shan
Zachariah Kersh
Vladimir Pugh
Lord Magyar
Carab Culln
Sarpedon - technically renegade, but still a chapter master iirc. And half spider/half man and a psyker to boot...
Jubal Khan
How dare you forget Nimrod Grudge!
I would say Konvak Lann would be pretty bad ass as a Chapter Master
I fail to see how helbrecht can be the best when he lost his hand to a necron overlord that was hardly trying.
Could Vulkan be the best? I thought there was a book recemtly released that basically made him invulnerable (he has regeneration like wolverine or something whacko like that)
How to spot someone who didn't read the post he's responding to 101... As I said, martial prowess is irrelevant when you have the Chapter Fleet of the Black Templars blowing the planet you're stood on to pieces.
For the record, Helbrecht won the rematch against Imotekh. I'm not seriously saying he'd win in a melee (which you'd know if you'd actually read my post) though. My money's on Dante or Logan.
Dante is an old man even with his 1100 plus years we all know power armor is not saving anyone no matter how good and as for grumpy wolfman with his slow cumbersome axe and his lack of stormshield protection does not help him at all.
I fail to see how helbrecht can be the best when he lost his hand to a necron overlord that was hardly trying.
Could Vulkan be the best? I thought there was a book recemtly released that basically made him invulnerable (he has regeneration like wolverine or something whacko like that)
How to spot someone who didn't read the post he's responding to 101... As I said, martial prowess is irrelevant when you have the Chapter Fleet of the Black Templars blowing the planet you're stood on to pieces.
For the record, Helbrecht won the rematch against Imotekh. I'm not seriously saying he'd win in a melee (which you'd know if you'd actually read my post) though. My money's on Dante or Logan.
Dante is an old man even with his 1100 plus years we all know power armor is not saving anyone no matter how good and as for grumpy wolfman with his slow cumbersome axe and his lack of stormshield protection does not help him at all.
Erm, Dante has Artificer Armour, and no its not the same as power armour. Also I'm sure Moloc is super lightning fast in his slow and cumbersome terminator armour which you can't even do sweeping advances with.
Now don't you have work to do? Huron is still alive out there somewhere and you moved onto killing Necrons without finishing your last job.
I fail to see how helbrecht can be the best when he lost his hand to a necron overlord that was hardly trying.
Could Vulkan be the best? I thought there was a book recemtly released that basically made him invulnerable (he has regeneration like wolverine or something whacko like that)
How to spot someone who didn't read the post he's responding to 101... As I said, martial prowess is irrelevant when you have the Chapter Fleet of the Black Templars blowing the planet you're stood on to pieces.
For the record, Helbrecht won the rematch against Imotekh. I'm not seriously saying he'd win in a melee (which you'd know if you'd actually read my post) though. My money's on Dante or Logan.
Dante is an old man even with his 1100 plus years we all know power armor is not saving anyone no matter how good and as for grumpy wolfman with his slow cumbersome axe and his lack of stormshield protection does not help him at all.
Erm, Dante has Artificer Armour, and no its not the same as power armour. Also I'm sure Moloc is super lightning fast in his slow and cumbersome terminator armour which you can't even do sweeping advances with.
Now don't you have work to do? Huron is still alive out there somewhere and you moved onto killing Necrons without finishing your last job.
slow? last i checked doesnt Dante have a power axe? thats slow, Moloc's spear on the other hand nope! And does dante have an invul save and if soo im sure its not better than 4++. Oh and Huron we all know will never be what he once was he sucked then he sucks now and sucks on the tabletop too lol Moloc did something worse than killing him he made him inadequate.
I fail to see how helbrecht can be the best when he lost his hand to a necron overlord that was hardly trying.
Could Vulkan be the best? I thought there was a book recemtly released that basically made him invulnerable (he has regeneration like wolverine or something whacko like that)
How to spot someone who didn't read the post he's responding to 101... As I said, martial prowess is irrelevant when you have the Chapter Fleet of the Black Templars blowing the planet you're stood on to pieces.
For the record, Helbrecht won the rematch against Imotekh. I'm not seriously saying he'd win in a melee (which you'd know if you'd actually read my post) though. My money's on Dante or Logan.
Dante is an old man even with his 1100 plus years we all know power armor is not saving anyone no matter how good and as for grumpy wolfman with his slow cumbersome axe and his lack of stormshield protection does not help him at all.
Erm, Dante has Artificer Armour, and no its not the same as power armour. Also I'm sure Moloc is super lightning fast in his slow and cumbersome terminator armour which you can't even do sweeping advances with.
Now don't you have work to do? Huron is still alive out there somewhere and you moved onto killing Necrons without finishing your last job.
slow? last i checked doesnt Dante have a power axe? thats slow, Moloc's spear on the other hand nope! And does dante have an invul save and if soo im sure its not better than 4++. Oh and Huron we all know will never be what he once was he sucked then he sucks now and sucks on the tabletop too lol Moloc did something worse than killing him he made him inadequate.
In terms of fluff, a Chapter Master in Artificier Armour equipped with a Jump Pack who has 1100+ years of experience as Chapter Master and performing hit and run attacks would probably beat the snot out of anyone in Terminator Armour, as long as they weren't fighting inside a cramped corridor. The superior mobility of AA/JP compared to Terminator Armour makes a huge difference.
To be fair though, you don't even know what stats or special rules Dante have and yet you immediately dismiss any claims that anyone could ever beat Moloc. Dante probably wouldn't in-game, but there are some Marine HQ Characters that probably would. Abaddon, for one. Logan Grimnar has 7 attacks the first round of battle and will be hitting on 3s rerolling 1s. Calgar stays away and shoots you to death because his AP2 Storm Bolters don't run out of ammo after one shot.
Similarly, if we ignore the "no DIY Chapter Master" limitation for a minute, a Black Templars Chapter Master with the Shield Eternal, Bike and Thunder Hammer would beat the snot out of Asterion "Snowflake" Moloc. He's a really good MEQHQ killer, but he's not the best there's around. Regardless, we probably want to wait until Moloc's been updated for the new Marine Codex anyway, since Chapter Tactics kinda matter.
I fail to see how helbrecht can be the best when he lost his hand to a necron overlord that was hardly trying.
Could Vulkan be the best? I thought there was a book recemtly released that basically made him invulnerable (he has regeneration like wolverine or something whacko like that)
How to spot someone who didn't read the post he's responding to 101... As I said, martial prowess is irrelevant when you have the Chapter Fleet of the Black Templars blowing the planet you're stood on to pieces.
For the record, Helbrecht won the rematch against Imotekh. I'm not seriously saying he'd win in a melee (which you'd know if you'd actually read my post) though. My money's on Dante or Logan.
Dante is an old man even with his 1100 plus years we all know power armor is not saving anyone no matter how good and as for grumpy wolfman with his slow cumbersome axe and his lack of stormshield protection does not help him at all.
Erm, Dante has Artificer Armour, and no its not the same as power armour. Also I'm sure Moloc is super lightning fast in his slow and cumbersome terminator armour which you can't even do sweeping advances with.
Now don't you have work to do? Huron is still alive out there somewhere and you moved onto killing Necrons without finishing your last job.
slow? last i checked doesnt Dante have a power axe? thats slow, Moloc's spear on the other hand nope! And does dante have an invul save and if soo im sure its not better than 4++. Oh and Huron we all know will never be what he once was he sucked then he sucks now and sucks on the tabletop too lol Moloc did something worse than killing him he made him inadequate.
Erm - in your op, you said no tabletop. Look
bigboss1o1 wrote: New codex I have to ask all you space marines fans out there defend your chapter master this is a no holds barred all CM in one arena free for all (not tabletop) by chapter masters I mean founding chapters, and successors no made up chapter masters. I would have to go with my chapter master Asterion Moloc of the Minotaurs with his Black Spear, storm shield, and termie armor his only competition would be Lysander but with his unwieldy thunder hammer would be to slow and get speared through the heart.
Tell how you think this free for all would play out and who would be the last man standing.
I fail to see how helbrecht can be the best when he lost his hand to a necron overlord that was hardly trying.
Could Vulkan be the best? I thought there was a book recemtly released that basically made him invulnerable (he has regeneration like wolverine or something whacko like that)
How to spot someone who didn't read the post he's responding to 101... As I said, martial prowess is irrelevant when you have the Chapter Fleet of the Black Templars blowing the planet you're stood on to pieces.
For the record, Helbrecht won the rematch against Imotekh. I'm not seriously saying he'd win in a melee (which you'd know if you'd actually read my post) though. My money's on Dante or Logan.
Dante is an old man even with his 1100 plus years we all know power armor is not saving anyone no matter how good and as for grumpy wolfman with his slow cumbersome axe and his lack of stormshield protection does not help him at all.
Erm, Dante has Artificer Armour, and no its not the same as power armour. Also I'm sure Moloc is super lightning fast in his slow and cumbersome terminator armour which you can't even do sweeping advances with.
Now don't you have work to do? Huron is still alive out there somewhere and you moved onto killing Necrons without finishing your last job.
slow? last i checked doesnt Dante have a power axe? thats slow, Moloc's spear on the other hand nope! And does dante have an invul save and if soo im sure its not better than 4++. Oh and Huron we all know will never be what he once was he sucked then he sucks now and sucks on the tabletop too lol Moloc did something worse than killing him he made him inadequate.
Erm - in your op, you said no tabletop. Look
bigboss1o1 wrote: New codex I have to ask all you space marines fans out there defend your chapter master this is a no holds barred all CM in one arena free for all (not tabletop) by chapter masters I mean founding chapters, and successors no made up chapter masters. I would have to go with my chapter master Asterion Moloc of the Minotaurs with his Black Spear, storm shield, and termie armor his only competition would be Lysander but with his unwieldy thunder hammer would be to slow and get speared through the heart.
Tell how you think this free for all would play out and who would be the last man standing.
Therefore Dante fluff>Moloc fluff = Dante>Moloc
Look im not well versed in Dante'ism but aside from being old as hell what badass stuff has he really done what I really want to know?
Led the Blood Angels for 1100 years (I see this as a major acheivement) - in all that time, no one has ever managed to kill him. A feat unmatched by any other chapter master. Especially considering any member of his chapter is liable to turn into a frothing lunatic at a moments notice. And the BA are THE hand to hand combat chapter. I'm also sure there's something about him beating Skarbrand
Then there'e the beneath (copied from wikia - it seems roughly right)
WAAAGH! Ghazghkull descends upon the Hive World of Armageddon during the Second War for Armageddon. The Blood Angels are one of three Space Marine Chapters to respond. Such is Lord Commander Dante's reputation that Tu'Shan of the Salamanders and Marneus Calgar of the Ultramarines cede overall command to him
Yep - 2 first founding chapter masters see him and just say 'yep, he can lead us'
Considering how good Calgar is supposed to be in the fluff, what does that say about Dante?
I fail to see how helbrecht can be the best when he lost his hand to a necron overlord that was hardly trying.
Could Vulkan be the best? I thought there was a book recemtly released that basically made him invulnerable (he has regeneration like wolverine or something whacko like that)
How to spot someone who didn't read the post he's responding to 101... As I said, martial prowess is irrelevant when you have the Chapter Fleet of the Black Templars blowing the planet you're stood on to pieces.
For the record, Helbrecht won the rematch against Imotekh. I'm not seriously saying he'd win in a melee (which you'd know if you'd actually read my post) though. My money's on Dante or Logan.
Dante is an old man even with his 1100 plus years we all know power armor is not saving anyone no matter how good and as for grumpy wolfman with his slow cumbersome axe and his lack of stormshield protection does not help him at all.
Erm, Dante has Artificer Armour, and no its not the same as power armour. Also I'm sure Moloc is super lightning fast in his slow and cumbersome terminator armour which you can't even do sweeping advances with.
Now don't you have work to do? Huron is still alive out there somewhere and you moved onto killing Necrons without finishing your last job.
slow? last i checked doesnt Dante have a power axe? thats slow, Moloc's spear on the other hand nope! And does dante have an invul save and if soo im sure its not better than 4++. Oh and Huron we all know will never be what he once was he sucked then he sucks now and sucks on the tabletop too lol Moloc did something worse than killing him he made him inadequate.
Dante comes with a jump pack and an infernus pistol and also hit & run. Good luck trying to catch him when hes shooting you in the face with a melta weapon.
Yes Dante gets a fine invul save at 4++. Doesn't matter though, even if do get into combat with him he will just hit & run, shoot you with his pistol and then charge you again for the extra attack.
That just makes him seen like a strategist then a fighter. Given that the OP is looking for who would win in a brawl I think counts him out just about as much as it does the black templars point earlier about there being a legion to shoot for him.
In the event of Dante vs Moloc, a points been made of him basically kiting and killing with a melta gun, which is a possibility. But I honestly think he has just as much a chance of being instant killed via spear given that unlike moloc he can be.
In hand to hand combat I don't think there is much competition.
I'm not sure of dante's fluff wise but I am inclined to assume moloc has claimed more memorable kills then dante has in battle regardless of the majesty behind him to me he doesn't match up in combat, but as a strategist outside of a brawl as the OP has stated he would be far superior in regards to leading an army I am sure.
Sasa0mg wrote: So what your pointing out as Dante's feat of greatness is surviving his own chapter for 1100 years? xD
Don't forget that Calgar & Tu'shan both think he is better to lead attack strategy than they are.
Also dont forget resisting the red thirst/black rage for that long on top the time it took him to make CM and currently defending Baal against a hive fleet.... commanding not just his chapter but most of its offshoots including renegades (knights of blood).
Sasa0mg wrote: That just makes him seen like a strategist then a fighter. Given that the OP is looking for who would win in a brawl I think counts him out just about as much as it does the black templars point earlier about there being a legion to shoot for him.
In the event of Dante vs Moloc, a points been made of him basically kiting and killing with a melta gun, which is a possibility. But I honestly think he has just as much a chance of being instant killed via spear given that unlike moloc he can be.
In hand to hand combat I don't think there is much competition.
I'm not sure of dante's fluff wise but I am inclined to assume moloc has claimed more memorable kills then dante has in battle regardless of the majesty behind him to me he doesn't match up in combat, but as a strategist outside of a brawl as the OP has stated he would be far superior in regards to leading an army I am sure.
No, Dante defeated Skarbrand. Not to mention that he explicitly described as a lead from the front type of chapter master (as if there is any other type), and to lead from the front and still be alive after 1100 years means he is an amazingly competent fighter. He is also an unquestionable master with the jump pack, depicted by the fact that he does not scatter when he deep strikes. Moloc is outclassed here fluff-wise.
Surviving alongside you an army is a lot different to killing reputable targets. The fact he has a jump pack can be testament to his ability to avoid fights that would otherwise have likely claimed his life so I still don't hold his surviving overly above the hundreds of battles Moloc has been in and the targets that he's downed.
And considering this is a brawl that he cannot tactically withdraw away from nor take an army into I think that moloc someone who has killed chapter masters, and spent a great deal of his existence so far undoing marines to the point they are a preferred enemy I think that dante's tactical finesse and ability to survive a broad battle would be overwhelmed when drawn into a 1 v 1 he cannot run or tactically withdraw from.
In this last incident, Moloc was reported initially to have been lost and remained so for some time, which corresponds to at least six other incidents known to wider Imperial record over the last five standard centuries where the Chapter Master of the Minotaurs is thought to have been killed only to later reappear. This, coupled with the Minotaurs Chapter's insularity and the very high level of cybernetic rebuild their master is known to have undergone, has led to the rather extreme supposition by some observers that Asterion Moloc has not been one Space Marine, but many down the centuries, each inheriting not only a name and panopoly as some have suggested but also, and somewhat blasphemously, an engramatically-enforced personality and recorded memories taken from many different lifetimes.
So - Moloc has died a good few times...allegedly. Even I could claim I'm the best chapter master if I keep being brought back after every loss...
Sasa0mg wrote: Surviving alongside you an army is a lot different to killing reputable targets. The fact he has a jump pack can be testament to his ability to avoid fights that would otherwise have likely claimed his life so I still don't hold his surviving overly above the hundreds of battles Moloc has been in and the targets that he's downed.
And considering this is a brawl that he cannot tactically withdraw away from nor take an army into I think that moloc someone who has killed chapter masters, and spent a great deal of his existence so far undoing marines to the point they are a preferred enemy I think that dante's tactical finesse and ability to survive a broad battle would be overwhelmed when drawn into a 1 v 1 he cannot run or tactically withdraw from.
xD Im not sure this debate is likely to end mind
Dante won an 1v1 against Skarbrand. The former Champion of Khorne. That good enough for you?
For the record, upon consulting the new Space Marine Codex, I think Helbrecht could probably win 1v1 against Moloc as well, the man killed a Daemon Prince with nothing but a normal combat blade while still a mere Initiate.
In this last incident, Moloc was reported initially to have been lost and remained so for some time, which corresponds to at least six other incidents known to wider Imperial record over the last five standard centuries where the Chapter Master of the Minotaurs is thought to have been killed only to later reappear. This, coupled with the Minotaurs Chapter's insularity and the very high level of cybernetic rebuild their master is known to have undergone, has led to the rather extreme supposition by some observers that Asterion Moloc has not been one Space Marine, but many down the centuries, each inheriting not only a name and panopoly as some have suggested but also, and somewhat blasphemously, an engramatically-enforced personality and recorded memories taken from many different lifetimes.
So - Moloc has died a good few times...allegedly. Even I could claim I'm the best chapter master if I keep being brought back after every loss...
That quote alone suggests that he has the combat experience of several life times, perspectives and founding if his memories are recorded and passed down. He is then then potentially the strongest of all chapter masters if not now, then in the future as unlike the others he will never truly die but with every death become stronger from having experienced it and gain chance after chance to learn, recover and improve from his past mistakes. Which by now would come to assume he would likely be systematically sound killed of space marines. Sounds almost Saiyan of him.
Of course they neither clarified or verified one way or the other to be true, but if his experience is passed down from 'host to host' and the best equipment money can buy to rebuild him every time I dare say fluff wise means he has more potential then any chapter master.
Sasa0mg wrote: Surviving alongside you an army is a lot different to killing reputable targets. The fact he has a jump pack can be testament to his ability to avoid fights that would otherwise have likely claimed his life so I still don't hold his surviving overly above the hundreds of battles Moloc has been in and the targets that he's downed.
And considering this is a brawl that he cannot tactically withdraw away from nor take an army into I think that moloc someone who has killed chapter masters, and spent a great deal of his existence so far undoing marines to the point they are a preferred enemy I think that dante's tactical finesse and ability to survive a broad battle would be overwhelmed when drawn into a 1 v 1 he cannot run or tactically withdraw from.
xD Im not sure this debate is likely to end mind
Dante won an 1v1 against Skarbrand. The former Champion of Khorne. That good enough for you?
For the record, upon consulting the new Space Marine Codex, I think Helbrecht could probably win 1v1 against Moloc as well, the man killed a Daemon Prince with nothing but a normal combat blade while still a mere Initiate.
This. Dante defeated Skarbrand, that's a big deal. I wasn't referring to his skill with a jump pack as being able to run away either, he is simply too agile for Moloc to handle. Even vanguard veterans scatter 2d6 when deep striking with jump packs, Dante does not scatter at all. This implies that the level of control he has over his jump pack is at an extraordinary level. We have every reason to believe that he would use his jump pack to great effect in a 1v1 battle.
Sasa0mg wrote: Surviving alongside you an army is a lot different to killing reputable targets. The fact he has a jump pack can be testament to his ability to avoid fights that would otherwise have likely claimed his life so I still don't hold his surviving overly above the hundreds of battles Moloc has been in and the targets that he's downed.
And considering this is a brawl that he cannot tactically withdraw away from nor take an army into I think that moloc someone who has killed chapter masters, and spent a great deal of his existence so far undoing marines to the point they are a preferred enemy I think that dante's tactical finesse and ability to survive a broad battle would be overwhelmed when drawn into a 1 v 1 he cannot run or tactically withdraw from.
xD Im not sure this debate is likely to end mind
surviving alongside is one thing. 1100 years of spearheading the army across thousands of worlds is another. Just due to his age he will have slain more foes than all save Bjorn. Also, Dante is no coward. Many times he has been grievously injured in the heart of battle, yet he keeps coming back. Thats the reason people believe he is the one from the prophecy. He will not die until the time is right.
In this last incident, Moloc was reported initially to have been lost and remained so for some time, which corresponds to at least six other incidents known to wider Imperial record over the last five standard centuries where the Chapter Master of the Minotaurs is thought to have been killed only to later reappear. This, coupled with the Minotaurs Chapter's insularity and the very high level of cybernetic rebuild their master is known to have undergone, has led to the rather extreme supposition by some observers that Asterion Moloc has not been one Space Marine, but many down the centuries, each inheriting not only a name and panopoly as some have suggested but also, and somewhat blasphemously, an engramatically-enforced personality and recorded memories taken from many different lifetimes.
So - Moloc has died a good few times...allegedly. Even I could claim I'm the best chapter master if I keep being brought back after every loss...
That quote alone suggests that he has the combat experience of several life times, perspectives and founding if his memories are recorded and passed down. He is then then potentially the strongest of all chapter masters if not now, then in the future as unlike the others he will never truly die but with every death become stronger from having experienced it and gain chance after chance to learn, recover and improve from his past mistakes. Which by now would come to assume he would likely be systematically sound killed of space marines. Sounds almost Saiyan of him.
Of course they neither clarified or verified one way or the other to be true, but if his experience is passed down from 'host to host' and the best equipment money can buy to rebuild him every time I dare say fluff wise means he has more potential then any chapter master.
That logic holds no weight. The accumulated memories of the previous 6-7 versions of himself that he possesses (allegedly) still doesn't add up to the amount of experience Dante or even Logan has accumulated on their own.
Dante has survived for 1100 years, Logan has survived for 700 years, Moloc has died and had his memories transferred to a new body 7 times over a 500 year span. What does that tell you?
In this last incident, Moloc was reported initially to have been lost and remained so for some time, which corresponds to at least six other incidents known to wider Imperial record over the last five standard centuries where the Chapter Master of the Minotaurs is thought to have been killed only to later reappear. This, coupled with the Minotaurs Chapter's insularity and the very high level of cybernetic rebuild their master is known to have undergone, has led to the rather extreme supposition by some observers that Asterion Moloc has not been one Space Marine, but many down the centuries, each inheriting not only a name and panopoly as some have suggested but also, and somewhat blasphemously, an engramatically-enforced personality and recorded memories taken from many different lifetimes.
So - Moloc has died a good few times...allegedly. Even I could claim I'm the best chapter master if I keep being brought back after every loss...
That quote alone suggests that he has the combat experience of several life times, perspectives and founding if his memories are recorded and passed down. He is then then potentially the strongest of all chapter masters if not now, then in the future as unlike the others he will never truly die but with every death become stronger from having experienced it and gain chance after chance to learn, recover and improve from his past mistakes. Which by now would come to assume he would likely be systematically sound killed of space marines. Sounds almost Saiyan of him.
Of course they neither clarified or verified one way or the other to be true, but if his experience is passed down from 'host to host' and the best equipment money can buy to rebuild him every time I dare say fluff wise means he has more potential then any chapter master.
That logic holds no weight. The accumulated memories of the previous 6-7 versions of himself that he possesses (allegedly) still doesn't add up to the amount of experience Dante or even Logan has accumulated on their own.
Dante has survived for 1100 years, Logan has survived for 700 years, Moloc has needed his memories transferred to new bodies 7 times over a 500 year span due to death. What does that tell you?
Let me point out Dante has been chapter master for 1100 years... who knows how many more he has served as an initiate, brother and captain before that.
Sasa0mg wrote: That just makes him seen like a strategist then a fighter. Given that the OP is looking for who would win in a brawl I think counts him out just about as much as it does the black templars point earlier about there being a legion to shoot for him.
Being a great strategist does not necessarily exclude his skill as a fighter though. Dante does also fight himself and even bar fight brawls can still include tactics.
In the event of Dante vs Moloc, a points been made of him basically kiting and killing with a melta gun, which is a possibility. But I honestly think he has just as much a chance of being instant killed via spear given that unlike moloc he can be.
If he can use that spear in his big clunky termie armour.
In hand to hand combat I don't think there is much competition.
Yeah, Dante wins hands down.
I'm not sure of dante's fluff wise but I am inclined to assume moloc has claimed more memorable kills then dante has in battle regardless of the majesty behind him to me he doesn't match up in combat, but as a strategist outside of a brawl as the OP has stated he would be far superior in regards to leading an army I am sure.
I wouldn't count Dante out, he is a fighter. His fluff states he was the only Blood Angel to come back alive from a space hulk while the rest of his squad was torn to bits. Mission completed I might add unlike that upstarter Moloc.
In this last incident, Moloc was reported initially to have been lost and remained so for some time, which corresponds to at least six other incidents known to wider Imperial record over the last five standard centuries where the Chapter Master of the Minotaurs is thought to have been killed only to later reappear. This, coupled with the Minotaurs Chapter's insularity and the very high level of cybernetic rebuild their master is known to have undergone, has led to the rather extreme supposition by some observers that Asterion Moloc has not been one Space Marine, but many down the centuries, each inheriting not only a name and panopoly as some have suggested but also, and somewhat blasphemously, an engramatically-enforced personality and recorded memories taken from many different lifetimes.
So - Moloc has died a good few times...allegedly. Even I could claim I'm the best chapter master if I keep being brought back after every loss...
Lol, Moloc is the best, despite him dying several times in combat before and being replace by different people on each occasion.
So lets see..........
Dante - has been Chpater Master for AT LEAST 1100 years but nobody else actually knows for how long because they can't even remember a time before Dante
OR
Moloc - has dies several times in combat to be replace by different people and therefore isn't even one guy with one set of accomplishments.
In the event of Dante vs Moloc, a points been made of him basically kiting and killing with a melta gun, which is a possibility. But I honestly think he has just as much a chance of being instant killed via spear given that unlike moloc he can be.
If he can use that spear in his big clunky termie armour.
Also TT wise he cant be insta-killed. Fluffwise if you get a meltabeam to the face you dont get back up. And Dante would also have more mobility than Moloc, moving faster in his streamlined nipple armor more likely to dodge that single shot lasor
In this last incident, Moloc was reported initially to have been lost and remained so for some time, which corresponds to at least six other incidents known to wider Imperial record over the last five standard centuries where the Chapter Master of the Minotaurs is thought to have been killed only to later reappear. This, coupled with the Minotaurs Chapter's insularity and the very high level of cybernetic rebuild their master is known to have undergone, has led to the rather extreme supposition by some observers that Asterion Moloc has not been one Space Marine, but many down the centuries, each inheriting not only a name and panopoly as some have suggested but also, and somewhat blasphemously, an engramatically-enforced personality and recorded memories taken from many different lifetimes.
So - Moloc has died a good few times...allegedly. Even I could claim I'm the best chapter master if I keep being brought back after every loss...
That quote alone suggests that he has the combat experience of several life times, perspectives and founding if his memories are recorded and passed down. He is then then potentially the strongest of all chapter masters if not now, then in the future as unlike the others he will never truly die but with every death become stronger from having experienced it and gain chance after chance to learn, recover and improve from his past mistakes. Which by now would come to assume he would likely be systematically sound killed of space marines. Sounds almost Saiyan of him.
Of course they neither clarified or verified one way or the other to be true, but if his experience is passed down from 'host to host' and the best equipment money can buy to rebuild him every time I dare say fluff wise means he has more potential then any chapter master.
And Dante already has that without having to be reincarnated.
Number of times Dante has died .. 0 Number of times Moloc has died .. hard to tell. It's like Lucius, he's only good because he can come back to life, being killed and then bought back to life isn't the sign of being awesome, it's a sign that you aren't very good at what you are doing
In this last incident, Moloc was reported initially to have been lost and remained so for some time, which corresponds to at least six other incidents known to wider Imperial record over the last five standard centuries where the Chapter Master of the Minotaurs is thought to have been killed only to later reappear. This, coupled with the Minotaurs Chapter's insularity and the very high level of cybernetic rebuild their master is known to have undergone, has led to the rather extreme supposition by some observers that Asterion Moloc has not been one Space Marine, but many down the centuries, each inheriting not only a name and panopoly as some have suggested but also, and somewhat blasphemously, an engramatically-enforced personality and recorded memories taken from many different lifetimes.
So - Moloc has died a good few times...allegedly. Even I could claim I'm the best chapter master if I keep being brought back after every loss...
That quote alone suggests that he has the combat experience of several life times, perspectives and founding if his memories are recorded and passed down. He is then then potentially the strongest of all chapter masters if not now, then in the future as unlike the others he will never truly die but with every death become stronger from having experienced it and gain chance after chance to learn, recover and improve from his past mistakes. Which by now would come to assume he would likely be systematically sound killed of space marines. Sounds almost Saiyan of him.
Of course they neither clarified or verified one way or the other to be true, but if his experience is passed down from 'host to host' and the best equipment money can buy to rebuild him every time I dare say fluff wise means he has more potential then any chapter master.
That logic holds no weight. The accumulated memories of the previous 6-7 versions of himself that he possesses (allegedly) still doesn't add up to the amount of experience Dante or even Logan has accumulated on their own.
Dante has survived for 1100 years, Logan has survived for 700 years, Moloc has died and had his memories transferred to a new body 7 times over a 500 year span. What does that tell you?
In this last incident, Moloc was reported initially to have been lost and remained so for some time, which corresponds to at least six other incidents known to wider Imperial record over the last five standard centuries where the Chapter Master of the Minotaurs is thought to have been killed only to later reappear. This, coupled with the Minotaurs Chapter's insularity and the very high level of cybernetic rebuild their master is known to have undergone, has led to the rather extreme supposition by some observers that Asterion Moloc has not been one Space Marine, but many down the centuries, each inheriting not only a name and panopoly as some have suggested but also, and somewhat blasphemously, an engramatically-enforced personality and recorded memories taken from many different lifetimes.
So - Moloc has died a good few times...allegedly. Even I could claim I'm the best chapter master if I keep being brought back after every loss...
That quote alone suggests that he has the combat experience of several life times, perspectives and founding if his memories are recorded and passed down. He is then then potentially the strongest of all chapter masters if not now, then in the future as unlike the others he will never truly die but with every death become stronger from having experienced it and gain chance after chance to learn, recover and improve from his past mistakes. Which by now would come to assume he would likely be systematically sound killed of space marines. Sounds almost Saiyan of him.
Of course they neither clarified or verified one way or the other to be true, but if his experience is passed down from 'host to host' and the best equipment money can buy to rebuild him every time I dare say fluff wise means he has more potential then any chapter master.
That logic holds no weight. The accumulated memories of the previous 6-7 versions of himself that he possesses (allegedly) still doesn't add up to the amount of experience Dante or even Logan has accumulated on their own.
Dante has survived for 1100 years, Logan has survived for 700 years, Moloc has died and had his memories transferred to a new body 7 times over a 500 year span. What does that tell you?
In this last incident, Moloc was reported initially to have been lost and remained so for some time, which corresponds to at least six other incidents known to wider Imperial record over the last five standard centuries where the Chapter Master of the Minotaurs is thought to have been killed only to later reappear. This, coupled with the Minotaurs Chapter's insularity and the very high level of cybernetic rebuild their master is known to have undergone, has led to the rather extreme supposition by some observers that Asterion Moloc has not been one Space Marine, but many down the centuries, each inheriting not only a name and panopoly as some have suggested but also, and somewhat blasphemously, an engramatically-enforced personality and recorded memories taken from many different lifetimes.
So - Moloc has died a good few times...allegedly. Even I could claim I'm the best chapter master if I keep being brought back after every loss...
That quote alone suggests that he has the combat experience of several life times, perspectives and founding if his memories are recorded and passed down. He is then then potentially the strongest of all chapter masters if not now, then in the future as unlike the others he will never truly die but with every death become stronger from having experienced it and gain chance after chance to learn, recover and improve from his past mistakes. Which by now would come to assume he would likely be systematically sound killed of space marines. Sounds almost Saiyan of him.
Of course they neither clarified or verified one way or the other to be true, but if his experience is passed down from 'host to host' and the best equipment money can buy to rebuild him every time I dare say fluff wise means he has more potential then any chapter master.
That logic holds no weight. The accumulated memories of the previous 6-7 versions of himself that he possesses (allegedly) still doesn't add up to the amount of experience Dante or even Logan has accumulated on their own.
Dante has survived for 1100 years, Logan has survived for 700 years, Moloc has needed his memories transferred to new bodies 7 times over a 500 year span due to death. What does that tell you?
Let me point out Dante has been chapter master for 1100 years... who knows how many more he has served as an initiate, brother and captain before that.
It says AT LEAST 1100 years. He could have been chapter master longer than that in additon to all his years as an intiiative and so on.
Also TT wise he cant be insta-killed. Fluffwise if you get a meltabeam to the face you dont get back up. And Dante would also have more mobility than Moloc, moving faster in his streamlined nipple armor more likely to dodge that single shot lasor
He's been mentioned before as being rubbish, both in fluff and Table top, but Huron did. At least too half of it.
Actually, come to think of it, Bjorn was Chapter Master for a while and is still alive...ish. Would he count? Because I have a feeling he'd stomp some ass pretty hard.
A little unfair there... Hes a 10,000 year old warrior whos killed more than some whole CHAPTERS and hes in dreadnought armor. And punked a daemon primarch with only 1 person helping him. Plus, ex CM not current so i dont think he'd be allowed
Thatguyhsagun wrote: A little unfair there... Hes a 10,000 year old warrior whos killed more than some whole CHAPTERS and hes in dreadnought armor. And punked a daemon primarch with only 1 person helping him. Plus, ex CM not current so i dont think he'd be allowed
If the reconstruction thing about Moloc is true then he's also technically an ex-Chapter Master, seeing as he'd have died several times, and thus not eligible to run either.
Thatguyhsagun wrote: A little unfair there... Hes a 10,000 year old warrior whos killed more than some whole CHAPTERS and hes in dreadnought armor. And punked a daemon primarch with only 1 person helping him. Plus, ex CM not current so i dont think he'd be allowed
If the reconstruction thing about Moloc is true then he's also technically an ex-Chapter Master, seeing as he'd have died several times, and thus not eligible to run either.
He currently commands the chapter whereas Bjorn does not, thats what i was pointing out
Thatguyhsagun wrote: A little unfair there... Hes a 10,000 year old warrior whos killed more than some whole CHAPTERS and hes in dreadnought armor. And punked a daemon primarch with only 1 person helping him. Plus, ex CM not current so i dont think he'd be allowed
If the reconstruction thing about Moloc is true then he's also technically an ex-Chapter Master, seeing as he'd have died several times, and thus not eligible to run either.
Technically he is a current Chapter Master as well as a previous one. Sounds like Moloc has multiple personality issues.
Niexist wrote: If the only qualification is being alive, does that mean we can wake up sleeping primarchs? LION EL'JOHNSON!!
He's not really a chapter master though is he...If being in charge of a chapter at some point qualifies you for 'chapter master' then the emperor wins as the titular head of all loyalist marines
Just because someone hasn't died doesn't mean they cant. And knowing you can die and just be reconstructed grants you no fear of dying.
The fact he has died several times in a 500 year span could contest to having faced greater challenges on a personal level then dante.
Just because dante has survived a long period of time and is a capable strategist does not mean that he would overcome Moloc.
I mean firstly you have to keep in mind that moloc is a vet at fighting people like dante.
Second, Dante tactically pulls out of a situation he doesn't believe he can win. Survives another x amount of hears.
Moloc goes in either way, fights his way to the end claiming x amount of lives in the process combating x amount of challenges. His memory is recovered and added to the stock pile.
New Moloc emerges. Of whom benefited more combat expertise from that situation. The one that pulled back or the one that stood and fight.
Without a string of decisive battles (on a personal level, not commanding an army) surviving for such a long period means nothing more then he is a good tactician able to prevent himself from being left in situations he cannot win, not that he is able to overcome all obstacles
as far as TT goes there isn't anything in his wargear, special rules or stat line that makes me believe he would take moloc and in his fluff he is revered to more as a tactician, perhaps the best at leading men and surviving battles not killing fellow space marines.
Killing space marines is Moloc's profession, you think that dante would be the first with a jet pack? Unlikely.
Enjoy that Iniative 1 power axe though while Moloc 1 hands an AP 2 relic blade with the ability to 1 shot him due to lack of eternal warrior (as far as I know anyway!)
I do think calgar would take him but again the fact this guy has a storm shield at least table top wise makes him trickier to deal with then fluff apparently gives him credit for!
Then again Calgar pulls off miracles in fluff like no tomorrow (damn you ultramarine favoritism!)
Niexist wrote: If the only qualification is being alive, does that mean we can wake up sleeping primarchs? LION EL'JOHNSON!!
He's not really a chapter master though is he...If being in charge of a chapter at some point qualifies you for 'chapter master' then the emperor wins as the titular head of all loyalist marines
But Moloc could TOTALLY kill the Emperor in a 1v1, he's just THAT good!
Niexist wrote: If the only qualification is being alive, does that mean we can wake up sleeping primarchs? LION EL'JOHNSON!!
He's not really a chapter master though is he...If being in charge of a chapter at some point qualifies you for 'chapter master' then the emperor wins as the titular head of all loyalist marines
o-O He is a chapter master, always will be if they keep 'bringing him back' leadership will never pass over.
Molic might, through his memory swapping, become the best around eventually, but I think there are good arguments for Dante, Calgar, Helbrecht, and Grimnar being above him in the fluff right now.
I think Tu'Shan is in that conversation too. I don't think he has a big kill to his name like some of the others, but every time he pops up they mention he's one of the strongest SMs in the galaxy.
Basically, I think those 6 all have pretty good chances against each other.
Niexist wrote: If the only qualification is being alive, does that mean we can wake up sleeping primarchs? LION EL'JOHNSON!!
He's not really a chapter master though is he...If being in charge of a chapter at some point qualifies you for 'chapter master' then the emperor wins as the titular head of all loyalist marines
But Moloc could TOTALLY kill the Emperor in a 1v1, he's just THAT good!
Ok - Moloc vs the Swarmlord?
When either of them dies, they come back with more knowledge of how to defeat the other resulting in an endless cycle of super deathy death...
Sasa0mg wrote: Just because someone hasn't died doesn't mean they cant. And knowing you can die and just be reconstructed grants you no fear of dying.
The fact he has died several times in a 500 year span could contest to having faced greater challenges on a personal level then dante.
Just because dante has survived a long period of time and is a capable strategist does not mean that he would overcome Moloc.
I mean firstly you have to keep in mind that moloc is a vet at fighting people like dante.
Second, Dante tactically pulls out of a situation he doesn't believe he can win. Survives another x amount of hears.
Moloc goes in either way, fights his way to the end claiming x amount of lives in the process combating x amount of challenges. His memory is recovered and added to the stock pile.
New Moloc emerges. Of whom benefited more combat expertise from that situation. The one that pulled back or the one that stood and fight.
Without a string of decisive battles (on a personal level, not commanding an army) surviving for such a long period means nothing more then he is a good tactician able to prevent himself from being left in situations he cannot win, not that he is able to overcome all obstacles
as far as TT goes there isn't anything in his wargear, special rules or stat line that makes me believe he would take moloc and in his fluff he is revered to more as a tactician, perhaps the best at leading men and surviving battles not killing fellow space marines.
Killing space marines is Moloc's profession, you think that dante would be the first with a jet pack? Unlikely.
Enjoy that Iniative 1 power axe though while Moloc 1 hands an AP 2 relic blade with the ability to 1 shot him due to lack of eternal warrior (as far as I know anyway!)
I do think calgar would take him but again the fact this guy has a storm shield at least table top wise makes him trickier to deal with then fluff apparently gives him credit for!
Then again Calgar pulls off miracles in fluff like no tomorrow (damn you ultramarine favoritism!)
So you say dying (and therefore not succeeding) is better than succeeding despite grievous wounds? That many other chapter masters fight like dante? That just because he has a jump pack he fights like all the others with a Jump pack? fluffwise he jumps over Molocs head and cleaves him twain before he can get his bulky buns to turn around. And a power axe being I1 is to keep it from being OP (something FW doesnt care about) in reality you can swing an axe almost as easily as a sword... and Dante is a superhuman space marine with 1100+ years of experience with said axe... hed be pretty fast.
Sasa0mg wrote: Just because someone hasn't died doesn't mean they cant. And knowing you can die and just be reconstructed grants you no fear of dying.
The fact he has died several times in a 500 year span could contest to having faced greater challenges on a personal level then dante.
Just because dante has survived a long period of time and is a capable strategist does not mean that he would overcome Moloc.
I mean firstly you have to keep in mind that moloc is a vet at fighting people like dante.
Second, Dante tactically pulls out of a situation he doesn't believe he can win. Survives another x amount of hears.
Moloc goes in either way, fights his way to the end claiming x amount of lives in the process combating x amount of challenges. His memory is recovered and added to the stock pile.
New Moloc emerges. Of whom benefited more combat expertise from that situation. The one that pulled back or the one that stood and fight.
Without a string of decisive battles (on a personal level, not commanding an army) surviving for such a long period means nothing more then he is a good tactician able to prevent himself from being left in situations he cannot win, not that he is able to overcome all obstacles
as far as TT goes there isn't anything in his wargear, special rules or stat line that makes me believe he would take moloc and in his fluff he is revered to more as a tactician, perhaps the best at leading men and surviving battles not killing fellow space marines.
Killing space marines is Moloc's profession, you think that dante would be the first with a jet pack? Unlikely.
Enjoy that Iniative 1 power axe though while Moloc 1 hands an AP 2 relic blade with the ability to 1 shot him due to lack of eternal warrior (as far as I know anyway!)
I do think calgar would take him but again the fact this guy has a storm shield at least table top wise makes him trickier to deal with then fluff apparently gives him credit for!
Then again Calgar pulls off miracles in fluff like no tomorrow (damn you ultramarine favoritism!)
Everyone included in this argument is a space marine, they have no fear of dying by default.
Moloc being a "vet" at fighting people like Dante doesn't make sense, it is almost a given that Logan and Dante have faced every single threat to the Imperium at some point or another. That includes both renegade space marines and Chaos space marines.
You keep suggesting that Dante has only survived as long as he has by running away from fights he can't win, but there is no evidence to back this up. As someone already stated being an excellent strategist does not exclude you from being an excellent fighter.
You have yet to respond to the several mentions of Dante defeating Skarbrand. Not only is Skarbrand a seriously powerful opponent, but why didn't Dante just pull back and "survive another x amount of years"? Because he doesn't do that. The use of his jump pack isn't for running away, it is for jumping back out of reach of your opponent and then charging right back into them.
As far as wargear is concerned, Skarbrand wields two AP2 weapons and yet Dante defeated him. Not to mention what does Moloc intend to do about the Death Mask of Sanguinius?
I think you're exagerrating the maneuverability of a jet pack and the fact that Moloc's weapon is a spear and a shield.
Ultimately he would jump behind him, of which would be no surprise. A parry with the shield and a thrust with the full length of the spear would see Dante impaled.
And yes I'm saying there is more to be learned through attempting and failing then there is to be learnt from either not attempting or attempting from an advantageous position and never failing. Because 1 when you do fail you won't know how to deal with it or what comes next, 2 you will never expect it through self over evaluation.
You mock the guy that you've seen be downed five times until you attempt to do what others before you have done seeing no failure until he tracks your every move and scure's you like a pig.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The death mask merely gives him a greater chance of not being 1 shot by laser.
Yeah, any questioning of Dante's combat ability is suspect when you consider he beat Skarbrand. We're not talking about some random Bloodthirster who gets mentioned only to get stomped and show how powerful someone is (Worffed), we're talking about one of Khorne's strongest servants.
Moloc, based on the way he's being talked about in the thread, seems to suffer from Angron syndrome, that is, he charges in blindly because he thinks martial prowess is the only thing that matters. Meanwhile, all the other CMs set a trap and show him that while he might win the battle, he'd lose a war.
I don't think Moloc is quite like that, but when people say he's willing to fight in unwinnable situations because he knows he can't die, that's what it sounds like.
DogofWar1 wrote: Yeah, any questioning of Dante's combat ability is suspect when you consider he beat Skarbrand. We're not talking about some random Bloodthirster who gets mentioned only to get stomped and show how powerful someone is (Worffed), we're talking about one of Khorne's strongest servants.
Moloc, based on the way he's being talked about in the thread, seems to suffer from Angron syndrome, that is, he charges in blindly because he thinks martial prowess is the only thing that matters. Meanwhile, all the other CMs set a trap and show him that while he might win the battle, he'd lose a war.
I don't think Moloc is quite like that, but when people say he's willing to fight in unwinnable situations because he knows he can't die, that's what it sounds like.
If ever there were an origin of the Dark Fury special rule I believe that is it.
Sasa0mg wrote: I think you're exagerrating the maneuverability of a jet pack and the fact that Moloc's weapon is a spear and a shield.
Ultimately he would jump behind him, of which would be no surprise. A parry with the shield and a thrust with the full length of the spear would see Dante impaled.
You're seriously overestimating the mobility of Terminator Armour, and you're seriously overestimating the capability of anyone to use a shield to block a blow from behind. Similarly, why can't Dante just parry the spear thrust? There's just so much stacking the fight in favour of Moloc that it's ridiculous.
If Dante can move a power axe which is a decisively slow weapon that quickly then I suppose he could. And I'm not overestimating given his rules, and the lack of adoration the chapter gets from GW, given that 'everything about them ever appears to be lost' I am just laying things out in a positive manner for him.
Also Moloc's terminator armor isn't your average terminator armor, while it says that in the wargear section its quite obvious visually and given that he has the backing of the lords of terra it isn't your average stuff. That and a good deal of him isn't even human on account of being heavily constructed through cybernetics.
I just don't think dante is the jesus of 1v1 combat when he comes across as more of a strategic tactician then a master of martial combat
Automatically Appended Next Post: The one thing about shield and spear combat though, to keep in mind it has the ability to parry and thrust at the same time which is why I think he would be tricky to deal with up close. Especially given the reach that spears bring with them. You would literally have to be hugging the guy to make that not be dangerous.
It also helps that if we were to actually represent things, Moloc would be in far better armor then Dante with his gear, considering that there's no difference on TT between terminator outfits Moloc is practically in something that would've been roll 3D6 2+ back in second edition.
The problem is that with how it is on the TT it's hard to tell the difference between gear of the same type.
Also, meltagun to the face even if he is struck a deathblow. Its gonna be pretty easy to do when its mounted behind your fist. hell he could punch at moloc and when he goes to parry with the shield he could just melt the arm off. Also, trying and failing is better than trying and succeeding? Since when? i get the whole "learning experience" deal, but if i charge a bloodthurster and a daemon horde and lose terribly and then come back (with more warriors as the ones i just fought with died) and do it again and win, hows that better than winning the first time?
Automatically Appended Next Post: PS how did this turn into Moloc Vs Dante?
Look a point i want to make is that the Minotaurs chapter is soo shrouded in mystery that even the inquisition doesnt know crap about them just because they were founded in cursed founding does not mean there not older then that because appearently there are records of a Minotaurs chapter as far back as after the Horus Heresy and you know when they hint at something like that its not for no reason, soo Moloc could be way way older and more experienced then what you think.
Automatically Appended Next Post: By the way I must have taken a long nap this went from 3 pages to 5 lol thanks everyone keep on postin i love to argue MOLOC ALL THE WAY!!!
bigboss1o1 wrote: Look a point i want to make is that the Minotaurs chapter is soo shrouded in mystery that even the inquisition doesnt know crap about them just because they were founded in cursed founding does not mean there not older then that because appearently there are records of a Minotaurs chapter as far back as after the Horus Heresy and you know when they hint at something like that its not for no reason, soo Moloc could be way way older and more experienced then what you think.
Automatically Appended Next Post: By the way I must have taken a long nap this went from 3 pages to 5 lol thanks everyone keep on postin i love to argue MOLOC ALL THE WAY!!!
Eh, I don't see it. First off, its no different than referencing Dante's experience as an advantage over Logan's. In actuality when you're talking about people who have made it that far the difference in their experience is minimal at best. But more than that, if all this experience makes Moloc that much better, why does he still die so often? 7 deaths over 500 years is a disappointing lifespan for any marine, let alone a chapter master.
bigboss1o1 wrote: Look a point i want to make is that the Minotaurs chapter is soo shrouded in mystery that even the inquisition doesnt know crap about them just because they were founded in cursed founding does not mean there not older then that because appearently there are records of a Minotaurs chapter as far back as after the Horus Heresy and you know when they hint at something like that its not for no reason, soo Moloc could be way way older and more experienced then what you think.
Automatically Appended Next Post: By the way I must have taken a long nap this went from 3 pages to 5 lol thanks everyone keep on postin i love to argue MOLOC ALL THE WAY!!!
Eh, I don't see it. First off, its no different than referencing Dante's experience as an advantage over Logan's. In actuality when you're talking about people who have made it that far the difference in their experience is minimal at best. But more than that, if all this experience makes Moloc that much better, why does he still die so often? 7 deaths over 500 years is a disappointing lifespan for any marine, let alone a chapter master.
First off it never actually says he died thats just speculation, and second if he did die at the Amarah campaign it was because he launched a boarding assault on a necron ship crippled it and the necron lord within causing them to retreat and single handedly winning the battle, then got sucked out into space if he died Id say thats admirable and also he wasnt defeated soo your arguement is invalid, and third of all all this hate on termie armor but fluff wise its not just termie armor its artificer termie armor which as stated is way more manueverable then any other termie armor pattern soo its not like he's Domo Roboto with a spear I see him as a heavily armored achilles like in the movie troy total badass.
bigboss1o1 wrote: Look a point i want to make is that the Minotaurs chapter is soo shrouded in mystery that even the inquisition doesnt know crap about them just because they were founded in cursed founding does not mean there not older then that because appearently there are records of a Minotaurs chapter as far back as after the Horus Heresy and you know when they hint at something like that its not for no reason, soo Moloc could be way way older and more experienced then what you think.
Automatically Appended Next Post: By the way I must have taken a long nap this went from 3 pages to 5 lol thanks everyone keep on postin i love to argue MOLOC ALL THE WAY!!!
Eh, I don't see it. First off, its no different than referencing Dante's experience as an advantage over Logan's. In actuality when you're talking about people who have made it that far the difference in their experience is minimal at best. But more than that, if all this experience makes Moloc that much better, why does he still die so often? 7 deaths over 500 years is a disappointing lifespan for any marine, let alone a chapter master.
First off it never actually says he died thats just speculation, and second if he did die at the Amarah campaign it was because he launched a boarding assault on a necron ship crippled it and the necron lord within causing them to retreat and single handedly winning the battle, then got sucked out into space if he died Id say thats admirable and also he wasnt defeated soo your arguement is invalid, and third of all all this hate on termie armor but fluff wise its not just termie armor its artificer termie armor which as stated is way more manueverable then any other termie armor pattern soo its not like he's Domo Roboto with a spear I see him as a heavily armored achilles like in the movie troy total badass.
That's only one of them, the quote given earlier said that there were at least 6 other incidents reported in the last 5 centuries where the Minotaurs' chapter master had fallen in battle.
Even the best terminator armour ever made is still going to be slow and bulky in comparison to power armour, that's the trade off.
bigboss1o1 wrote: Look a point i want to make is that the Minotaurs chapter is soo shrouded in mystery that even the inquisition doesnt know crap about them just because they were founded in cursed founding does not mean there not older then that because appearently there are records of a Minotaurs chapter as far back as after the Horus Heresy and you know when they hint at something like that its not for no reason, soo Moloc could be way way older and more experienced then what you think.
Automatically Appended Next Post: By the way I must have taken a long nap this went from 3 pages to 5 lol thanks everyone keep on postin i love to argue MOLOC ALL THE WAY!!!
Eh, I don't see it. First off, its no different than referencing Dante's experience as an advantage over Logan's. In actuality when you're talking about people who have made it that far the difference in their experience is minimal at best. But more than that, if all this experience makes Moloc that much better, why does he still die so often? 7 deaths over 500 years is a disappointing lifespan for any marine, let alone a chapter master.
First off it never actually says he died thats just speculation, and second if he did die at the Amarah campaign it was because he launched a boarding assault on a necron ship crippled it and the necron lord within causing them to retreat and single handedly winning the battle, then got sucked out into space if he died Id say thats admirable and also he wasnt defeated soo your arguement is invalid, and third of all all this hate on termie armor but fluff wise its not just termie armor its artificer termie armor which as stated is way more manueverable then any other termie armor pattern soo its not like he's Domo Roboto with a spear I see him as a heavily armored achilles like in the movie troy total badass.
That's only one of them, the quote given earlier said that there were at least 6 other incidents reported in the last 5 centuries where the Minotaurs' chapter master had fallen in battle.
Even the best terminator armour ever made is still going to be slow and bulky in comparison to power armour, that's the trade off.
yes but whats the trade off for speed oh yeah the durability soo if it takes like 5 good hits to take me out and one to ruin you well you better hope your really really really fast. Im just saying
Automatically Appended Next Post: This has been fun im going to bed by all means continue I love this ill be back to retort in the morn night all! MOLOC, MOLOC, MOLOC!!!
OK, lets do this. A simulation battle between Dante and Moloc.
RULES
Both competitors start in base to base with each other. Dantes mask gives Moloc -1WS, -1 wound, -1 Attack & -1 Initiative. So Moloc is down to 2 attacks per turn and needs 4s to hit Dante. He also only starts with 3 wounds
Round 1 - Moloc hits first.
To Hit - (2*0.5) + (1*0.33*0.5) = 1.165 hits
To Wound - (1.165*(5/6)) + (0.195*(5/6)) = 1.13 Failed Saves
Failed Saves - 0.5*1.13 = 0.565 Wounds
So Moloc takes 0.565 Wounds off Dante a turn.
Now Dante Hits back - 5 attacks (4 base + 1 for extra CCW)
To Hit - (5*(4/6) + (1*(4/6) = 4 hits
To Wound - (4*(4/6)) = 2.66 Wounds
Failed Saves - 2.66*(2/6) = 0.88 Failed Saves
So Dante takes 0.88 Wounds off Moloc a turn
Turn two
Moloc causes 2*0.565 Wounds to Dante overall = 1.13 Wounds in total
Dante Causes 2*0.88 Wounds to Moloc Overall = 1.76 Wounds in total
Turn Three
Moloc cause 3*0.565 Wounds to Dante overall = 1.695 Wounds in total
Dante Causes 3*0.88 Wounds to Moloc Overall = 2.64 Wounds in total
Turn Four
Moloc cause 4*0.565 Wounds to Dante overall = 2.26 Wounds in total
Dante Causes 4*0.88 Wounds to Moloc Overall = 3.52 Wounds in total
DANTE IS THE WINNER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No wonder they stipulated not on the tabletop. They knew that Dante would win.
At least he lasted four turns against Dante. I love the fact that these guys seem to think he can beat Logan as well.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: You didn't take into account that Dante has Hit & Run either. That'd let him disengage, shoot his pistol and get bonus charge attack.
They said it. This is a bar brawl because "that's what Moloc is good at"
Based on thi, I don't think Moloc can even beat Calgar.
DarthOvious wrote: OK, lets do this. A simulation battle between Dante and Moloc.
RULES
Both competitors start in base to base with each other. Dantes mask gives Moloc -1WS, -1 wound, -1 Attack & -1 Initiative. So Moloc is down to 2 attacks per turn and needs 4s to hit Dante. He also only starts with 3 wounds
Round 1 - Moloc hits first.
To Hit - (2*0.5) + (1*0.33*0.5) = 1.165 hits To Wound - (1.165*(5/6)) + (0.195*(5/6)) = 1.13 Failed Saves Failed Saves - 0.5*1.13 = 0.565 Wounds
So Moloc takes 0.565 Wounds off Dante a turn.
Now Dante Hits back - 5 attacks (4 base + 1 for extra CCW)
To Hit - (5*(4/6) + (1*(4/6) = 4 hits To Wound - (4*(4/6)) = 2.66 Wounds Failed Saves - 2.66*(2/6) = 0.88 Failed Saves
So Dante takes 0.88 Wounds off Moloc a turn
Turn two
Moloc causes 2*0.565 Wounds to Dante overall = 1.13 Wounds in total
Dante Causes 2*0.88 Wounds to Moloc Overall = 1.76 Wounds in total
Turn Three
Moloc cause 3*0.565 Wounds to Dante overall = 1.695 Wounds in total
Dante Causes 3*0.88 Wounds to Moloc Overall = 2.64 Wounds in total
Turn Four
Moloc cause 4*0.565 Wounds to Dante overall = 2.26 Wounds in total
Dante Causes 4*0.88 Wounds to Moloc Overall = 3.52 Wounds in total
DANTE IS THE WINNER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No wonder they stipulated not on the tabletop. They knew that Dante would win.
At least he lasted four turns against Dante. I love the fact that these guys seem to think he can beat Logan as well.
Pretty clear. As for H&R i wouldnt recommend it, he wins already and may die due to the S8 SUPER LAZOR SPEAR OF DOOOOOOOOMMMM attack if you fail the charge. Or he gets VERY lucky with his snap shots.
DarthOvious wrote: OK, lets do this. A simulation battle between Dante and Moloc.
RULES
Both competitors start in base to base with each other. Dantes mask gives Moloc -1WS, -1 wound, -1 Attack & -1 Initiative. So Moloc is down to 2 attacks per turn and needs 4s to hit Dante. He also only starts with 3 wounds
Round 1 - Moloc hits first.
To Hit - (2*0.5) + (1*0.33*0.5) = 1.165 hits
To Wound - (1.165*(5/6)) + (0.195*(5/6)) = 1.13 Failed Saves
Failed Saves - 0.5*1.13 = 0.565 Wounds
So Moloc takes 0.565 Wounds off Dante a turn.
Now Dante Hits back - 5 attacks (4 base + 1 for extra CCW)
To Hit - (5*(4/6) + (1*(4/6) = 4 hits
To Wound - (4*(4/6)) = 2.66 Wounds
Failed Saves - 2.66*(2/6) = 0.88 Failed Saves
So Dante takes 0.88 Wounds off Moloc a turn
Turn two
Moloc causes 2*0.565 Wounds to Dante overall = 1.13 Wounds in total
Dante Causes 2*0.88 Wounds to Moloc Overall = 1.76 Wounds in total
Turn Three
Moloc cause 3*0.565 Wounds to Dante overall = 1.695 Wounds in total
Dante Causes 3*0.88 Wounds to Moloc Overall = 2.64 Wounds in total
Turn Four
Moloc cause 4*0.565 Wounds to Dante overall = 2.26 Wounds in total
Dante Causes 4*0.88 Wounds to Moloc Overall = 3.52 Wounds in total
DANTE IS THE WINNER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No wonder they stipulated not on the tabletop. They knew that Dante would win.
At least he lasted four turns against Dante. I love the fact that these guys seem to think he can beat Logan as well.
Pretty clear. As for H&R i wouldnt recommend it, he wins already and may die due to the S8 SUPER LAZOR SPEAR OF DOOOOOOOOMMMM attack if you fail the charge. Or he gets VERY lucky with his snap shots.
To be honest I doubt that Moloc could beat a kitted out Chapter Master from the new Space marine Codex now. Someone want to run the numbers?
DarthOvious wrote: OK, lets do this. A simulation battle between Dante and Moloc.
RULES
Both competitors start in base to base with each other. Dantes mask gives Moloc -1WS, -1 wound, -1 Attack & -1 Initiative. So Moloc is down to 2 attacks per turn and needs 4s to hit Dante. He also only starts with 3 wounds
Round 1 - Moloc hits first.
To Hit - (2*0.5) + (1*0.33*0.5) = 1.165 hits
To Wound - (1.165*(5/6)) + (0.195*(5/6)) = 1.13 Failed Saves
Failed Saves - 0.5*1.13 = 0.565 Wounds
So Moloc takes 0.565 Wounds off Dante a turn.
Now Dante Hits back - 5 attacks (4 base + 1 for extra CCW)
To Hit - (5*(4/6) + (1*(4/6) = 4 hits
To Wound - (4*(4/6)) = 2.66 Wounds
Failed Saves - 2.66*(2/6) = 0.88 Failed Saves
So Dante takes 0.88 Wounds off Moloc a turn
Turn two
Moloc causes 2*0.565 Wounds to Dante overall = 1.13 Wounds in total
Dante Causes 2*0.88 Wounds to Moloc Overall = 1.76 Wounds in total
Turn Three
Moloc cause 3*0.565 Wounds to Dante overall = 1.695 Wounds in total
Dante Causes 3*0.88 Wounds to Moloc Overall = 2.64 Wounds in total
Turn Four
Moloc cause 4*0.565 Wounds to Dante overall = 2.26 Wounds in total
Dante Causes 4*0.88 Wounds to Moloc Overall = 3.52 Wounds in total
DANTE IS THE WINNER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No wonder they stipulated not on the tabletop. They knew that Dante would win.
At least he lasted four turns against Dante. I love the fact that these guys seem to think he can beat Logan as well.
Pretty clear. As for H&R i wouldnt recommend it, he wins already and may die due to the S8 SUPER LAZOR SPEAR OF DOOOOOOOOMMMM attack if you fail the charge. Or he gets VERY lucky with his snap shots.
To be honest I doubt that Moloc could beat a kitted out Chapter Master from the new Space marine Codex now. Someone want to run the numbers?
DarthOvious wrote: OK, lets do this. A simulation battle between Dante and Moloc.
RULES
Both competitors start in base to base with each other. Dantes mask gives Moloc -1WS, -1 wound, -1 Attack & -1 Initiative. So Moloc is down to 2 attacks per turn and needs 4s to hit Dante. He also only starts with 3 wounds
Round 1 - Moloc hits first.
To Hit - (2*0.5) + (1*0.33*0.5) = 1.165 hits
To Wound - (1.165*(5/6)) + (0.195*(5/6)) = 1.13 Failed Saves
Failed Saves - 0.5*1.13 = 0.565 Wounds
So Moloc takes 0.565 Wounds off Dante a turn.
Now Dante Hits back - 5 attacks (4 base + 1 for extra CCW)
To Hit - (5*(4/6) + (1*(4/6) = 4 hits
To Wound - (4*(4/6)) = 2.66 Wounds
Failed Saves - 2.66*(2/6) = 0.88 Failed Saves
So Dante takes 0.88 Wounds off Moloc a turn
Turn two
Moloc causes 2*0.565 Wounds to Dante overall = 1.13 Wounds in total
Dante Causes 2*0.88 Wounds to Moloc Overall = 1.76 Wounds in total
Turn Three
Moloc cause 3*0.565 Wounds to Dante overall = 1.695 Wounds in total
Dante Causes 3*0.88 Wounds to Moloc Overall = 2.64 Wounds in total
Turn Four
Moloc cause 4*0.565 Wounds to Dante overall = 2.26 Wounds in total
Dante Causes 4*0.88 Wounds to Moloc Overall = 3.52 Wounds in total
DANTE IS THE WINNER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No wonder they stipulated not on the tabletop. They knew that Dante would win.
At least he lasted four turns against Dante. I love the fact that these guys seem to think he can beat Logan as well.
Pretty clear. As for H&R i wouldnt recommend it, he wins already and may die due to the S8 SUPER LAZOR SPEAR OF DOOOOOOOOMMMM attack if you fail the charge. Or he gets VERY lucky with his snap shots.
To be honest I doubt that Moloc could beat a kitted out Chapter Master from the new Space marine Codex now. Someone want to run the numbers?
Whatre we saying, EW shield, axe, AA on a bike?
That would do it I think. Even just a storm shield with the burning blade will accomplish it.
DarthOvious wrote: OK, lets do this. A simulation battle between Dante and Moloc.
RULES
Both competitors start in base to base with each other. Dantes mask gives Moloc -1WS, -1 wound, -1 Attack & -1 Initiative. So Moloc is down to 2 attacks per turn and needs 4s to hit Dante. He also only starts with 3 wounds
Round 1 - Moloc hits first.
To Hit - (2*0.5) + (1*0.33*0.5) = 1.165 hits
To Wound - (1.165*(5/6)) + (0.195*(5/6)) = 1.13 Failed Saves
Failed Saves - 0.5*1.13 = 0.565 Wounds
So Moloc takes 0.565 Wounds off Dante a turn.
Now Dante Hits back - 5 attacks (4 base + 1 for extra CCW)
To Hit - (5*(4/6) + (1*(4/6) = 4 hits
To Wound - (4*(4/6)) = 2.66 Wounds
Failed Saves - 2.66*(2/6) = 0.88 Failed Saves
So Dante takes 0.88 Wounds off Moloc a turn
Turn two
Moloc causes 2*0.565 Wounds to Dante overall = 1.13 Wounds in total
Dante Causes 2*0.88 Wounds to Moloc Overall = 1.76 Wounds in total
Turn Three
Moloc cause 3*0.565 Wounds to Dante overall = 1.695 Wounds in total
Dante Causes 3*0.88 Wounds to Moloc Overall = 2.64 Wounds in total
Turn Four
Moloc cause 4*0.565 Wounds to Dante overall = 2.26 Wounds in total
Dante Causes 4*0.88 Wounds to Moloc Overall = 3.52 Wounds in total
DANTE IS THE WINNER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No wonder they stipulated not on the tabletop. They knew that Dante would win.
At least he lasted four turns against Dante. I love the fact that these guys seem to think he can beat Logan as well.
Pretty clear. As for H&R i wouldnt recommend it, he wins already and may die due to the S8 SUPER LAZOR SPEAR OF DOOOOOOOOMMMM attack if you fail the charge. Or he gets VERY lucky with his snap shots.
To be honest I doubt that Moloc could beat a kitted out Chapter Master from the new Space marine Codex now. Someone want to run the numbers?
Whatre we saying, EW shield, axe, AA on a bike?
Shield, TH, AA, Bike. Who is seriously going to run a Chapter Master with a mere axe? Have him be Black Templars for rerolls in challenges just for the lulz.
Deadshot wrote: I don't have the new dex yet but I keep hearing of this mystical "Burning Blade" that's suppossed to kill stuff dead.
It's more or less the Loyalist version of the AoBF. It's +3S AP2 at initiative but has a chance to burn the wielder. It's also more expensive than a Terminator. I personally still think a Thunder Hammer is better, as it's S8 and thus reaches that magical ID level for T4. If you manage to wound your enemy and he lives you'll bring him down to your I anyway, and a Chapter Master with 3++, EW and 4 wounds is probably going to live long enough to hit back regardless of what charges him.
I thought the mask only worked against shooting attacks?
You didn't account for the 2 in 6 chance that he 1 shots dante before the battle even takes place.
Also remember dante strikes last and moloc is striking first with str 6 AP 2 and a 3+invuln.
TT I fail to see where dante wins this engagement.
Also in relation to
Even the best terminator armour ever made is still going to be slow and bulky in comparison to power armour, that's the trade off.
According to the rules terminator armor only hinders the persons ability to run if it affected there reflexes and ability to act else you would see a penalty to weapon skill and I doubt you would see it employed so heavily.
Some of the strongest people in the game use terminator armor, abaddon, lysander, calgar, Moloc, Draigo and you see no impairment to there reaction time or ability to fight at all.
Sasa0mg wrote: I thought the mask only worked against shooting attacks?
Nope, it cause the opponents HQ to reduce their WS by 1, their Wounds by 1, their attacks by 1 and their Initiative by 1.
You didn't account for the 2 in 6 chance that he 1 shots dante before the battle even takes place.
You wanted a brawl, so you got a brawl. There isn't any shooting in brawls. Besides, Dante could always look out sir on the table top. This is a challenge setting in combat. You have challenged Dante and he has accepted.
Also remember dante strikes last and moloc is striking first with str 6 AP 2 and a 3+invuln.
Yes, I took that into account. I even took into account his preferred enemy Space Marines.
TT I fail to see where dante wins this engagement.
That's because you are blinded by mediocracy.
EDIT: I also forgot that if Moloc fails a leadership test he is reduced to WS1 for the turn since Dantes Death Mask acts as a normal Death Mask in addition to its other rules.
Burning Blade, AA, Storm Shield. Total cost for that bad boy would be about 235 on a CM platform.
I think they'd basically tie. Striking at initiative, hitting on 4+s, wounding on 2+s, both have a 3++ save.
How many attacks does Moloc have though? If he's only got 3 base then he should only be getting 1.5 hits to a CM's 2, and dealing 1.25 wounds to 1.66. After 3++, Moloc deals .4166 wounds per round compared to .5533 wounds.
Things get even worse if you give the CM a bike. Then Moloc is only wounding on 3+s, meaning he's only dealing 1 wound per turn, of which .333 will be unsaved.
That's assuming I got the statlines right.
Edit: Oh, if Moloc has Preferred enemy: SM, then that gives him a bit of a boost, he'd be hitting 1.75 times (rerolls 1/3 of his 1.5 misses, so .5 rerolls, and 50% hit, so .25 more hits per turn). He'd then basically get 1.7 wounds, since he misses a to-wound once every 36 rolls.
Thus, with PE, Moloc would get 1.7 wounds, and deals .566 wounds. So .013 wounds more per turn. Moloc wins against regular CM (though we would probably need to take into account blind rules, as well as the possibility of the CM wounding himself; I don't know how those numbers would work out).
Against a CM on a bike, Moloc still gets 1.75 hits, but only wounds 1.16 times before rerolls, which add .19 wounds (.59 wound rolls missed, 50% get rerolled, of which 2/3 wound), so 1.35 wounds when all is said and done.
So against a bike CM, after saves, Moloc is dealing .45 wounds a turn and taking .5533 wounds a turn. Thus Moloc loses in that setup.
Also, it'd be interesting to make the CMIH so he gets IWND.
DogofWar1 wrote: Burning Blade, AA, Storm Shield. Total cost for that bad boy would be about 235 on a CM platform.
I think they'd basically tie. Striking at initiative, hitting on 4+s, wounding on 2+s, both have a 3++ save.
How many attacks does Moloc have though? If he's only got 3 base then he should only be getting 1.5 hits to a CM's 2, and dealing 1.25 wounds to 1.66. After 3++, Moloc deals .4166 wounds per round compared to .5533 wounds.
Things get even worse if you give the CM a bike. Then Moloc is only wounding on 3+s, meaning he's only dealing 1 wound per turn, of which .333 will be unsaved.
That's assuming I got the statlines right.
Moloc's attack base is only 3. He is basically dead against this CM.
Sasa0mg wrote: I thought the mask only worked against shooting attacks?
Nope, it cause the opponents HQ to reduce their WS by 1, their Wounds by 1, their attacks by 1 and their Initiative by 1.
You didn't account for the 2 in 6 chance that he 1 shots dante before the battle even takes place.
You wanted a brawl, so you got a brawl. There isn't any shooting in brawls. Besides, Dante could always look out sir on the table top. This is a challenge setting in combat. You have challenged Dante and he has accepted.
Also remember dante strikes last and moloc is striking first with str 6 AP 2 and a 3+invuln.
Yes, I took that into account. I even took into account his preferred enemy Space Marines.
TT I fail to see where dante wins this engagement.
That's because you are blinded by mediocracy.
EDIT: I also forgot that if Moloc fails a leadership test he is reduced to WS1 for the turn since Dantes Death Mask acts as a normal Death Mask in addition to its other rules.
This, the Death Mask is nothing to scoff at.
EDIT: To specify, it isn't the enemy HQ. It is any enemy independent character of your choosing that suffers the Death Mask effects.
Moloc's attack base is only 3. He is basically dead against this CM.
Eh, preferred enemy gives Moloc just enough of a boost that his damage output is higher. Still a difference of .013 wounds per turn basically translates to "whose dice are friendlier today" or "they kill each other."
Which, I guess with the whole "recover body, stick brain in jar, stick jar on bear-I mean, stick brain in new dude" shtick, Moloc wins.
Though the Burning Blade might automatically cremate the body, making brain recovery impossible.
Let's just say that IH Bike CM with Burning Blade and EWSS plus IWND is the strongest dude in the galaxy. I haven't run the numbers, but he probably sees Abbadon, and is like "Come and have a go, if you think you're hard enough."
I'm not reading 5 pages worth of banter but azrael with a 2+/4++ and a master crafted relic blade with a combi plasma cannon that is assault 1 could put a hurting on some in a rumble
Unfortunately for Azrael, on the tabletop at least, that AP3 is only going to take him so far. Anyone with a 2+ save is going to be outpacing him if they have an AP2 weapon of their own, of which Calgar, Moloc, Grimnar, and Dante all have.
Moloc fanboism. I'm stunned. Is this how you all feel when UM Calgar fans dig their heels in despite all logic?
Fluff, its not even comparable.
Skar Thirster >> Huron.
Alive for over 1k years > dying all the time.
Awesome because you are > tooled up by Terra (and still can't cut it)
It's like arguing that a high school football player is better than Adrian Peterson because he has better season stats and a higher win/loss ratio. Silly
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm a huge UM fan... Huge. But fluff wise Grimnar 1 fast draws and iaijutsu obliterates Moloc or he would but Dante wins the starring contest so Moloc walks away defeated before it even happens. Calgar chuckles as he was going to rip Molocs heart out.
Well since it is a FFA Brawl, and brawls only occur in one locale the clear winner is Logan Grimnar. He'll drink the rest under the table and still be able to bash their heads in.
Thatguyhsagun wrote: Also i would like to see official stats for Tu Shan before we pick a winner. Sallies supplement cant come fast enough
Yeah, Tu'Shan should put the hurt on lots of people. Tu'Shan and Stronos, assuming they get added in Supplements, should be pretty awesome on the tabletop, provided GW doesn't do something dumb like give them 3+ armor saves or AP3 weapons. Also interested in Jubal Khan and Vladimir Pugh, though Khan might be more about chewing infantry than straight up 1 on 1, and Pugh, even if he's awesome, will still probably be overshadowed by Lysander.
Someone had homebrew rules for Tu'Shan that gave him Termi armor, a drakescale cloak conferring 3++, EW built in, strength of 5, and a Thunder Hammer, that due to a special rule, he could use at initiative. The result is pretty monstrous if you think about it.
I imagine the official GW one will have similar stats, though he might not get to strike at initiative with his TH. Still, a guy with 2+/3++, EW, and an S10 TH is pretty much an unmatched beatstick, except for perhaps Relic decked out CMs from C:SM.
Actually, I'd say the Emperor would b -slap Moloc for being the corrupt High Lords' lap dog and spending all of his time killing his brother marines instead of fighting the real threats. But then, I'm sure Moloc would take his spear and run the Emperor through, and take his place on the Golden Throne, completely eliminating the forces of Chaos with his unsurpassed (and previously unknown) psychic powers, because he's Mother F'n Moloc and he is Forge World's Special Snowflake!!!
I'm curious as to how someone can be a "diligent and disciplined logistician and strategist" but also "has little patience for councils or strategic planning"....
Thatguyhsagun wrote: Also i would like to see official stats for Tu Shan before we pick a winner. Sallies supplement cant come fast enough
Yeah, Tu'Shan should put the hurt on lots of people. Tu'Shan and Stronos, assuming they get added in Supplements, should be pretty awesome on the tabletop, provided GW doesn't do something dumb like give them 3+ armor saves or AP3 weapons. Also interested in Jubal Khan and Vladimir Pugh, though Khan might be more about chewing infantry than straight up 1 on 1, and Pugh, even if he's awesome, will still probably be overshadowed by Lysander.
Someone had homebrew rules for Tu'Shan that gave him Termi armor, a drakescale cloak conferring 3++, EW built in, strength of 5, and a Thunder Hammer, that due to a special rule, he could use at initiative. The result is pretty monstrous if you think about it.
I imagine the official GW one will have similar stats, though he might not get to strike at initiative with his TH. Still, a guy with 2+/3++, EW, and an S10 TH is pretty much an unmatched beatstick, except for perhaps Relic decked out CMs from C:SM.
So he's Lysander... But with a free hand to strong arm a flamer/melta... I can dig it! And maybe i2... I think unwieldy should have int rounding down
Actually, I'd say the Emperor would b -slap Moloc for being the corrupt High Lords' lap dog and spending all of his time killing his brother marines instead of fighting the real threats. But then, I'm sure Moloc would take his spear and run the Emperor through, and take his place on the Golden Throne, completely eliminating the forces of Chaos with his unsurpassed (and previously unknown) psychic powers, because he's Mother F'n Moloc and he is Forge World's Special Snowflake!!!
I'm curious as to how someone can be a "diligent and disciplined logistician and strategist" but also "has little patience for councils or strategic planning"....
Seeing as they fight renegades mostly, they do fight real threats that turn away from being loyalists.
DarthOvious wrote: OK, lets do this. A simulation battle between Dante and Moloc.
RULES
Both competitors start in base to base with each other. Dantes mask gives Moloc -1WS, -1 wound, -1 Attack & -1 Initiative. So Moloc is down to 2 attacks per turn and needs 4s to hit Dante. He also only starts with 3 wounds
Round 1 - Moloc hits first.
To Hit - (2*0.5) + (1*0.33*0.5) = 1.165 hits
To Wound - (1.165*(5/6)) + (0.195*(5/6)) = 1.13 Failed Saves
Failed Saves - 0.5*1.13 = 0.565 Wounds
So Moloc takes 0.565 Wounds off Dante a turn.
Now Dante Hits back - 5 attacks (4 base + 1 for extra CCW)
To Hit - (5*(4/6) + (1*(4/6) = 4 hits
To Wound - (4*(4/6)) = 2.66 Wounds
Failed Saves - 2.66*(2/6) = 0.88 Failed Saves
So Dante takes 0.88 Wounds off Moloc a turn
Turn two
Moloc causes 2*0.565 Wounds to Dante overall = 1.13 Wounds in total
Dante Causes 2*0.88 Wounds to Moloc Overall = 1.76 Wounds in total
Turn Three
Moloc cause 3*0.565 Wounds to Dante overall = 1.695 Wounds in total
Dante Causes 3*0.88 Wounds to Moloc Overall = 2.64 Wounds in total
Turn Four
Moloc cause 4*0.565 Wounds to Dante overall = 2.26 Wounds in total
Dante Causes 4*0.88 Wounds to Moloc Overall = 3.52 Wounds in total
DANTE IS THE WINNER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No wonder they stipulated not on the tabletop. They knew that Dante would win.
At least he lasted four turns against Dante. I love the fact that these guys seem to think he can beat Logan as well.
erm one important factor you forgot Moloc has preffered enemy space marines bub, factor that into your calculations.
Both competitors start in base to base with each other. Dantes mask gives Moloc -1WS, -1 wound, -1 Attack & -1 Initiative. So Moloc is down to 2 attacks per turn and needs 4s to hit Dante. He also only starts with 3 wounds
Round 1 - Moloc hits first.
To Hit - (2*0.5) + (1*0.33*0.5) = 1.165 hits To Wound - (1.165*(5/6)) + (0.195*(5/6)) = 1.13 Failed Saves Failed Saves - 0.5*1.13 = 0.565 Wounds
So Moloc takes 0.565 Wounds off Dante a turn.
erm one important factor you forgot Moloc has preffered enemy space marines bub, factor that into your calculations.
He did.
Moloc drops to 2 attacks and WS5 because of uber deathmask, 50% of Moloc's attacks (or 1 attack), miss. He rerolls 1s, so 1/3 of his misses, and 50% of those hit, so he gets an extra .165 hits with preferred enemy. That's represented by the (1*0.33*0.5) part of the to-hit calculation.
Then for to wound, same thing, it's represented by the (0.195*(5/6)) part of the calculation, .195 being 1/6th of 1.165, or the 1s he would roll.
erm one important factor you forgot Moloc has preffered enemy space marines bub, factor that into your calculations.
Yeah, thing about snowflakes they melt. If you look at their stats to their fluff, Logan, Dante, and Calgar are all less powerful than their stories would lend (so you can use them without breaking the game), Moloc, on the other hand, is pushing the limits of his abilities (and believability) with his stats. FW wanted their own Leman Russ... so they pushed the limit, which is cool. Sad thing is, Moloc gets wiped by another FW space marine, Sevrin Loth rolling biomancy.
erm one important factor you forgot Moloc has preffered enemy space marines bub, factor that into your calculations.
Yeah, thing about snowflakes they melt. If you look at their stats to their fluff, Logan, Dante, and Calgar are all less powerful than their stories would lend (so you can use them without breaking the game), Moloc, on the other hand, is pushing the limits of his abilities (and believability) with his stats. FW wanted their own Leman Russ... so they pushed the limit, which is cool. Sad thing is, Moloc gets wiped by another FW space marine, Sevrin Loth rolling biomancy.
To be fair, biomancy is just that good in general.
Also the funny thing is, I wonder how all these characters would do under second edition. Seeing as we'd finally get full proof differences between the armor sets besides looks.
DarthOvious wrote: OK, lets do this. A simulation battle between Dante and Moloc.
RULES
Both competitors start in base to base with each other. Dantes mask gives Moloc -1WS, -1 wound, -1 Attack & -1 Initiative. So Moloc is down to 2 attacks per turn and needs 4s to hit Dante. He also only starts with 3 wounds
Round 1 - Moloc hits first.
To Hit - (2*0.5) + (1*0.33*0.5) = 1.165 hits
To Wound - (1.165*(5/6)) + (0.195*(5/6)) = 1.13 Failed Saves
Failed Saves - 0.5*1.13 = 0.565 Wounds
So Moloc takes 0.565 Wounds off Dante a turn.
Now Dante Hits back - 5 attacks (4 base + 1 for extra CCW)
To Hit - (5*(4/6) + (1*(4/6) = 4 hits
To Wound - (4*(4/6)) = 2.66 Wounds
Failed Saves - 2.66*(2/6) = 0.88 Failed Saves
So Dante takes 0.88 Wounds off Moloc a turn
Turn two
Moloc causes 2*0.565 Wounds to Dante overall = 1.13 Wounds in total
Dante Causes 2*0.88 Wounds to Moloc Overall = 1.76 Wounds in total
Turn Three
Moloc cause 3*0.565 Wounds to Dante overall = 1.695 Wounds in total
Dante Causes 3*0.88 Wounds to Moloc Overall = 2.64 Wounds in total
Turn Four
Moloc cause 4*0.565 Wounds to Dante overall = 2.26 Wounds in total
Dante Causes 4*0.88 Wounds to Moloc Overall = 3.52 Wounds in total
DANTE IS THE WINNER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No wonder they stipulated not on the tabletop. They knew that Dante would win.
At least he lasted four turns against Dante. I love the fact that these guys seem to think he can beat Logan as well.
erm one important factor you forgot Moloc has preffered enemy space marines bub, factor that into your calculations.
I did.
You see the bit to hit? Do you how it is (2*0.5) + (1*0.33*0.5)? The second part of that calculation is your reroll to hit. You need 4s to hit Dante since you are only WS5 against him (Death Mask) and you only have 2 attacks since you are reduced by one attack (death Mask again). So on average you will miss with 1 attack. The 0.33 is the chance that your 1 failed attack is a roll of a one and the 0.5 is the chance that you re-roll will hit.
erm one important factor you forgot Moloc has preffered enemy space marines bub, factor that into your calculations.
Yeah, thing about snowflakes they melt. If you look at their stats to their fluff, Logan, Dante, and Calgar are all less powerful than their stories would lend (so you can use them without breaking the game), Moloc, on the other hand, is pushing the limits of his abilities (and believability) with his stats. FW wanted their own Leman Russ... so they pushed the limit, which is cool. Sad thing is, Moloc gets wiped by another FW space marine, Sevrin Loth rolling biomancy.
Doesn't matter, he was wrong anyway. He obviously didn't read the calculations right.
Actually, I'd say the Emperor would b -slap Moloc for being the corrupt High Lords' lap dog and spending all of his time killing his brother marines instead of fighting the real threats. But then, I'm sure Moloc would take his spear and run the Emperor through, and take his place on the Golden Throne, completely eliminating the forces of Chaos with his unsurpassed (and previously unknown) psychic powers, because he's Mother F'n Moloc and he is Forge World's Special Snowflake!!!
I'm curious as to how someone can be a "diligent and disciplined logistician and strategist" but also "has little patience for councils or strategic planning"....
If Moloc fought the emperor (if he got up off the golden throne) the emperor would obliterate him.
Then Moloc would re-spawn.
This would be repeated for the next billion years until in the end, Moloc finally gets in a fluke hit and kills the emporer - thus proving he wins.
After all, a billion years of losing followed by a win is still a win right?
bigboss1o1 wrote: Look a point i want to make is that the Minotaurs chapter is soo shrouded in mystery that even the inquisition doesnt know crap about them just because they were founded in cursed founding does not mean there not older then that because appearently there are records of a Minotaurs chapter as far back as after the Horus Heresy and you know when they hint at something like that its not for no reason, soo Moloc could be way way older and more experienced then what you think.
Well it does, because they would not have existed before their Founding in M36.
This would be repeated for the next billion years until in the end, Moloc finally gets in a fluke hit and kills the emporer - thus proving he wins.
After all, a billion years of losing followed by a win is still a win right?
Actually, I'd say the Emperor would b -slap Moloc for being the corrupt High Lords' lap dog and spending all of his time killing his brother marines instead of fighting the real threats. But then, I'm sure Moloc would take his spear and run the Emperor through, and take his place on the Golden Throne, completely eliminating the forces of Chaos with his unsurpassed (and previously unknown) psychic powers, because he's Mother F'n Moloc and he is Forge World's Special Snowflake!!!
I'm curious as to how someone can be a "diligent and disciplined logistician and strategist" but also "has little patience for councils or strategic planning"....
If Moloc fought the emperor (if he got up off the golden throne) the emperor would obliterate him.
Then Moloc would re-spawn.
This would be repeated for the next billion years until in the end, Moloc finally gets in a fluke hit and kills the emporer - thus proving he wins.
After all, a billion years of losing followed by a win is still a win right?
Actually, in Vulkan Lives you learn that the trait that Vulkan inherited from the Emperor is the Emperors immortality. That means the Emperor is Immortal as well and would regenerate. It would just be 1 big dogfight until the end of time, with the Emperor winning about 99.999999999999999999% of the fights. The percentage would be higher than that but I just can be bothered typing out that many numbers.
bigboss1o1 wrote: Look a point i want to make is that the Minotaurs chapter is soo shrouded in mystery that even the inquisition doesnt know crap about them just because they were founded in cursed founding does not mean there not older then that because appearently there are records of a Minotaurs chapter as far back as after the Horus Heresy and you know when they hint at something like that its not for no reason, soo Moloc could be way way older and more experienced then what you think.
Well it does, because they would not have existed before their Founding in M36.
This would be repeated for the next billion years until in the end, Moloc finally gets in a fluke hit and kills the emporer - thus proving he wins.
After all, a billion years of losing followed by a win is still a win right?
Maybe Moloc is the Emperor
So Moloc doesn't just have multiple personality disorder? He also has obscene visions of grandeur? My of my, Moloc is not one healthy pup. Any money that Moloc is the next renegade to fall to chaos.
Actually, I'd say the Emperor would b -slap Moloc for being the corrupt High Lords' lap dog and spending all of his time killing his brother marines instead of fighting the real threats. But then, I'm sure Moloc would take his spear and run the Emperor through, and take his place on the Golden Throne, completely eliminating the forces of Chaos with his unsurpassed (and previously unknown) psychic powers, because he's Mother F'n Moloc and he is Forge World's Special Snowflake!!!
I'm curious as to how someone can be a "diligent and disciplined logistician and strategist" but also "has little patience for councils or strategic planning"....
I dunno, they aren't heretical in there purging of other marines. At first it may have been a little shady, but ultimately there use is to remove 'wayward' marines strayed or straying from the codex. That said after a few hundred years they become specialists at what they do and when a marine chapter can't keep its head on its shoulders, or chooses to rebel or otherwise go against orders I'm sure it just boils to "Lets bring in the experts" to set them back in there ways. Which ultimately tends to revolve around moloc cutting thee head from the shoulders of the chapter.
bigboss1o1 wrote: Look a point i want to make is that the Minotaurs chapter is soo shrouded in mystery that even the inquisition doesnt know crap about them just because they were founded in cursed founding does not mean there not older then that because appearently there are records of a Minotaurs chapter as far back as after the Horus Heresy and you know when they hint at something like that its not for no reason, soo Moloc could be way way older and more experienced then what you think.
Well it does, because they would not have existed before their Founding in M36.
This would be repeated for the next billion years until in the end, Moloc finally gets in a fluke hit and kills the emporer - thus proving he wins.
After all, a billion years of losing followed by a win is still a win right?
Maybe Moloc is the Emperor
O contrar read the Badab war my friend there are records of a minotaurs chapter in M21 which from there records were lost until there mysterious return in M36 soo yeah!
Actually, I'd say the Emperor would b -slap Moloc for being the corrupt High Lords' lap dog and spending all of his time killing his brother marines instead of fighting the real threats. But then, I'm sure Moloc would take his spear and run the Emperor through, and take his place on the Golden Throne, completely eliminating the forces of Chaos with his unsurpassed (and previously unknown) psychic powers, because he's Mother F'n Moloc and he is Forge World's Special Snowflake!!!
I'm curious as to how someone can be a "diligent and disciplined logistician and strategist" but also "has little patience for councils or strategic planning"....
If Moloc fought the emperor (if he got up off the golden throne) the emperor would obliterate him.
Then Moloc would re-spawn.
This would be repeated for the next billion years until in the end, Moloc finally gets in a fluke hit and kills the emporer - thus proving he wins.
After all, a billion years of losing followed by a win is still a win right?
Actually, in Vulkan Lives you learn that the trait that Vulkan inherited from the Emperor is the Emperors immortality. That means the Emperor is Immortal as well and would regenerate. It would just be 1 big dogfight until the end of time, with the Emperor winning about 99.999999999999999999% of the fights. The percentage would be higher than that but I just can be bothered typing out that many numbers.
bigboss1o1 wrote: Look a point i want to make is that the Minotaurs chapter is soo shrouded in mystery that even the inquisition doesnt know crap about them just because they were founded in cursed founding does not mean there not older then that because appearently there are records of a Minotaurs chapter as far back as after the Horus Heresy and you know when they hint at something like that its not for no reason, soo Moloc could be way way older and more experienced then what you think.
Well it does, because they would not have existed before their Founding in M36.
This would be repeated for the next billion years until in the end, Moloc finally gets in a fluke hit and kills the emporer - thus proving he wins.
After all, a billion years of losing followed by a win is still a win right?
Maybe Moloc is the Emperor
So Moloc doesn't just have multiple personality disorder? He also has obscene visions of grandeur? My of my, Moloc is not one healthy pup. Any money that Moloc is the next renegade to fall to chaos.
and as for there yes, mental disorders its because there geneseed is supposedly of chimeric quality they are some adeptas biologicus science project weather they have control over there minds or it has control over them is up to speculation.
bigboss1o1 wrote: O contrar read the Badab war my friend there are records of a minotaurs chapter in M21 which from there records were lost until there mysterious return in M36 soo yeah!
So Space Marines existed before Space Marines existed? You just divded by zero didn't you?
Also thanks to AlmightyWalrus for spoting this. I missed it first time around.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AlmightyWalrus wrote: The Imperium was founded in M30. Space Marines didn't exist then. Are you quite done with ridiculous claims about how Moloc is the bestast evar?
Minotaurs are like Lolcats. Theyz are in ur warp, messin wit ur histori.
Grimnar killed a Grey Knight Grand Master - I'd assume one of those could potentially beat Skarbrand?
TBH - Ragnar beats Grimnar in fluff - he's beaten Magnus the Red...
sorry your right i meant 21st founding whoops but I still say Dante, Calgar, Logan all are lost causes, two other big reasons why despite the one's ive already stated they are honorable Moloc is not where they would hesitate to strike down a battle brother Moloc wouldnt think twice he's mentally unstable and paranoid as hell, second Moloc nor his Minotaurs are no ordinary geneseed there a super super human geneseed with obvious defects, super secret science projects of the adeptas biologicus soo count him off if you want I know the truth all those others are old and outdated and ready for replacement Moloc's whole career has been founded on taking out chapter masters he's a specialist at his craft like no other.
bigboss1o1 wrote: sorry your right i meant 21st founding whoops but I still say Dante, Calgar, Logan all are lost causes, two other big reasons why despite the one's ive already stated they are honorable Moloc is not where they would hesitate to strike down a battle brother Moloc wouldnt think twice he's mentally unstable and paranoid as hell, second Moloc nor his Minotaurs are no ordinary geneseed there a super super human geneseed with obvious defects, super secret science projects of the adeptas biologicus soo count him off if you want I know the truth all those others are old and outdated and ready for replacement Moloc's whole career has been founded on taking out chapter masters he's a specialist at his craft like no other.
Then Logan goes for the throat - losing, he goes wulfen and tears molocs arms off and beats him to death with them. Dante - also losing, throws a wobbly, is claimed by the red thirst and the black rage and rips molocs head off and gaks down his neck. Moloc has never fought anything like those two before...
And when Moloc 're-incarnates' he has no memory of the event as he would have to save his memories before the fight as I doubt he'd get time during...
So he never learns what kills him thinking about it - he could never learn from his mistakes. As he'd be dead with no recent auto-saves.
Calgars fluff armour is too strong - also if the minotaurs went after the Ultramarines - they'd lose so badly it wouldn't even be funny. The UM have been know to gather ALL their successor chapters on occasion to attack a threat. I don't think anything in the galaxy could take all UM descendents at once.
bigboss1o1 wrote: sorry your right i meant 21st founding whoops but I still say Dante, Calgar, Logan all are lost causes, two other big reasons why despite the one's ive already stated they are honorable Moloc is not where they would hesitate to strike down a battle brother Moloc wouldnt think twice he's mentally unstable and paranoid as hell, second Moloc nor his Minotaurs are no ordinary geneseed there a super super human geneseed with obvious defects, super secret science projects of the adeptas biologicus soo count him off if you want I know the truth all those others are old and outdated and ready for replacement Moloc's whole career has been founded on taking out chapter masters he's a specialist at his craft like no other.
Then Logan goes for the throat - losing, he goes wulfen and tears molocs arms off and beats him to death with them.
Dante - also losing, throws a wobbly, is claimed by the red thirst and the black rage and rips molocs head off and gaks down his neck.
Moloc has never fought anything like those two before...
And when Moloc 're-incarnates' he has no memory of the event as he would have to save his memories before the fight as I doubt he'd get time during...
So he never learns what kills him thinking about it - he could never learn from his mistakes. As he'd be dead with no recent auto-saves
Also, a Space Wolf, honorable? didnt know this was a joke thread And maybe Moloc's brain has an auto-save like Gmail where every 5 minutes it auto-saves?
bigboss1o1 wrote: sorry your right i meant 21st founding whoops but I still say Dante, Calgar, Logan all are lost causes, two other big reasons why despite the one's ive already stated they are honorable Moloc is not where they would hesitate to strike down a battle brother Moloc wouldnt think twice he's mentally unstable and paranoid as hell, second Moloc nor his Minotaurs are no ordinary geneseed there a super super human geneseed with obvious defects, super secret science projects of the adeptas biologicus soo count him off if you want I know the truth all those others are old and outdated and ready for replacement Moloc's whole career has been founded on taking out chapter masters he's a specialist at his craft like no other.
Then Logan goes for the throat - losing, he goes wulfen and tears molocs arms off and beats him to death with them.
Dante - also losing, throws a wobbly, is claimed by the red thirst and the black rage and rips molocs head off and gaks down his neck.
Moloc has never fought anything like those two before...
And when Moloc 're-incarnates' he has no memory of the event as he would have to save his memories before the fight as I doubt he'd get time during...
So he never lerans what kills him thinking about it - he could never learn from his mistakes. As he'd be dead with no recent auto-saves
Logan gotta get close for that he swings his cute little axe it gets blocked by shield and since he wields it with two hands he has no way to stop the spear from being jammed into his unhelmeted face in which Moloc would proceed to give him something few have seen a terminator tea bag, and Dante is going to be flying around like a fairy and then be instakilled out of the air with a one shot, in which Moloc would moonwalk over his oversized jump pack.
There are a few ways memory could be relayed, of course which aren't confirmed. 1: The body is recovered memories up until the point of death are recovered from memory or muscle memory. Or a point upon death his memory is automatically relayed to wherever it needs to go like a instant download transaction. Given that a lot of him is cybernetic its not unbelievable that this guys memories can be installed and transmitted like regular electrical information.
Either way I'm sure he learns a lot. The only time he wouldn't is if he was completely incinerated, suffered un recoverable damage to his head, signalling was blocked or his body was ultimately unobtainable in the head of battle nor afterward.
I think 9 times out of 10 he would remember what killed him and the very mistake he made as it caused him to be slain.
Logon or Dante losing results in them being dead not given the chance to transform or induce the rage of anything.
If dante succumb to the red thirst and the black rage (which he had previously been able to resist to keep his sanity) Moloc still wins, because unlike dante he will return from his deceased state one way or another dante however would need to be killed else carve an unstoppable rampage through his own chapter potentially kicking off a massive chain of angry red marines flipping tables and killing each other.
As for seeing nothing like that, moloc most definitely has. It's a similar condition to which they themselves suffer and have had to over come, since there cursed blood makes them unnaturally violent and aggressive disliking and paranoid of other people fits and bursts of unbridled fearless rage inducing anger are probably things he's dealt with quite often.
Logon is a tough one. I think he is far more dangerous in fluff when he's not fighting initiative 1 then he is on the TT but again like Dante would he be able to stop himself from changing, would he be able to regain control or would the act of the transformation ultimately cause the loss of them both.
Sasa0mg wrote: There are a few ways memory could be relayed, of course which aren't confirmed. 1: The body is recovered memories up until the point of death are recovered from memory or muscle memory. Or a point upon death his memory is automatically relayed to wherever it needs to go like a instant download transaction. Given that a lot of him is cybernetic its not unbelievable that this guys memories can be installed and transmitted like regular electrical information.
Either way I'm sure he learns a lot. The only time he wouldn't is if he was completely incinerated, suffered un recoverable damage to his head, signalling was blocked or his body was ultimately unobtainable in the head of battle nor afterward.
I think 9 times out of 10 he would remember what killed him and the very mistake he made as it caused him to be slain.
Logon or Dante losing results in them being dead not given the chance to transform or induce the rage of anything.
If dante succumb to the red thirst and the black rage (which he had previously been able to resist to keep his sanity) Moloc still wins, because unlike dante he will return from his deceased state one way or another dante however would need to be killed else carve an unstoppable rampage through his own chapter potentially kicking off a massive chain of angry red marines flipping tables and killing each other.
As for seeing nothing like that, moloc most definitely has. It's a similar condition to which they themselves suffer and have had to over come, since there cursed blood makes them unnaturally violent and aggressive disliking and paranoid of other people fits and bursts of unbridled fearless rage inducing anger are probably things he's dealt with quite often.
Logon is a tough one. I think he is far more dangerous in fluff when he's not fighting initiative 1 then he is on the TT but again like Dante would he be able to stop himself from changing, would he be able to regain control or would the act of the transformation ultimately cause the loss of them both.
thank you. Its like saying you can beat a swarmlord but in all reality you cant he just keeps coming till your dead or till he gets a lucky strike.
If Bran Redmaw can handle turning back into a marine, I've no doubt Logan could. He's Logan.
Look at what happened to Brother Calistarius - he survived the red thirst and the black rage. Dante probably could too.
Moloc has not fought a super vampire space marine whos been in charge of one the most hand to hand combat orientated chapters and led from the front for 1100 years minimum.
Or a 10 ft tall mega werewolf in terminator armour...
They also both lead from the front of their GW poster boy codex's. When was the last time the wolves lost to anything?
(iirc - in one story they lose a cruiser to Huron Blackheart. Thats it.)
Sasa0mg wrote: There are a few ways memory could be relayed, of course which aren't confirmed. 1: The body is recovered memories up until the point of death are recovered from memory or muscle memory. Or a point upon death his memory is automatically relayed to wherever it needs to go like a instant download transaction. Given that a lot of him is cybernetic its not unbelievable that this guys memories can be installed and transmitted like regular electrical information.
Either way I'm sure he learns a lot. The only time he wouldn't is if he was completely incinerated, suffered un recoverable damage to his head, signalling was blocked or his body was ultimately unobtainable in the head of battle nor afterward.
I think 9 times out of 10 he would remember what killed him and the very mistake he made as it caused him to be slain.
Logon or Dante losing results in them being dead not given the chance to transform or induce the rage of anything.
If dante succumb to the red thirst and the black rage (which he had previously been able to resist to keep his sanity) Moloc still wins, because unlike dante he will return from his deceased state one way or another dante however would need to be killed else carve an unstoppable rampage through his own chapter potentially kicking off a massive chain of angry red marines flipping tables and killing each other.
As for seeing nothing like that, moloc most definitely has. It's a similar condition to which they themselves suffer and have had to over come, since there cursed blood makes them unnaturally violent and aggressive disliking and paranoid of other people fits and bursts of unbridled fearless rage inducing anger are probably things he's dealt with quite often.
Logon is a tough one. I think he is far more dangerous in fluff when he's not fighting initiative 1 then he is on the TT but again like Dante would he be able to stop himself from changing, would he be able to regain control or would the act of the transformation ultimately cause the loss of them both.
Red Thirst and Black Rage are two different things, there is no returning from the Black Rage (unless you're Mephiston) but the Red Thirst can come and go. There have been reports of entire companies falling to the Red Thirst during a particularly intense battle, and having it abate when the fighting was done.
The "too honorable, won't kill a fellow battle brother" argument is crap. We're talking about chapter masters who have fought renegades and chaos marines before, if they see Moloc as a threat they won't hesitate to cleave him in half.
You two are decidedly in the minority here, and the arguments on Moloc's behalf are getting more and more ridiculous. So as my final statement in this discussion I will be ridiculous as well. Dante wins hands down, because as you have pointed out he is an excellent tactician and as such he would be smart enough to not bother fighting Moloc himself. He would simply order Mephiston to curb stomp him.
You can assume so but neither have ever done it so you can't be sure. They're is a good chance that they might not in which case they done-pooped.
And yes the Minotaur and Blood angels are not so different.
If in doubt bring one of if not the strongest defensive item in the space marine inventory to lend a helping hand. This guy has a shield and spear and knows how to use it. If they flip there stuff and go on a rampage losing composure I'm sure while becoming more violent and aggressive it would fluff wise at least work against them.
Anyone with experience of shield and spear combat would understand why, and when that shield is essentially the shield eternal its going to be even more effective at keeping them at bay.
Sasa0mg wrote: There are a few ways memory could be relayed, of course which aren't confirmed. 1: The body is recovered memories up until the point of death are recovered from memory or muscle memory. Or a point upon death his memory is automatically relayed to wherever it needs to go like a instant download transaction. Given that a lot of him is cybernetic its not unbelievable that this guys memories can be installed and transmitted like regular electrical information.
Either way I'm sure he learns a lot. The only time he wouldn't is if he was completely incinerated, suffered un recoverable damage to his head, signalling was blocked or his body was ultimately unobtainable in the head of battle nor afterward.
I think 9 times out of 10 he would remember what killed him and the very mistake he made as it caused him to be slain.
Logon or Dante losing results in them being dead not given the chance to transform or induce the rage of anything.
If dante succumb to the red thirst and the black rage (which he had previously been able to resist to keep his sanity) Moloc still wins, because unlike dante he will return from his deceased state one way or another dante however would need to be killed else carve an unstoppable rampage through his own chapter potentially kicking off a massive chain of angry red marines flipping tables and killing each other.
As for seeing nothing like that, moloc most definitely has. It's a similar condition to which they themselves suffer and have had to over come, since there cursed blood makes them unnaturally violent and aggressive disliking and paranoid of other people fits and bursts of unbridled fearless rage inducing anger are probably things he's dealt with quite often.
Logon is a tough one. I think he is far more dangerous in fluff when he's not fighting initiative 1 then he is on the TT but again like Dante would he be able to stop himself from changing, would he be able to regain control or would the act of the transformation ultimately cause the loss of them both.
Red Thirst and Black Rage are two different things, there is no returning from the Black Rage (unless you're Mephiston) but the Red Thirst can come and go. There have been reports of entire companies falling to the Red Thirst during a particularly intense battle, and having it abate when the fighting was done.
The "too honorable, won't kill a fellow battle brother" argument is crap. We're talking about chapter masters who have fought renegades and chaos marines before, if they see Moloc as a threat they won't hesitate to cleave him in half.
You two are decidedly in the minority here, and the arguments on Moloc's behalf are getting more and more ridiculous. So as my final statement in this discussion I will be ridiculous as well. Dante wins hands down, because as you have pointed out he is an excellent tactician and as such he would be smart enough to not bother fighting Moloc himself. He would simply order Mephiston to curb stomp him.
I just think that Dante isn't all that. Both in the TT and fluff wise.
Logon on the other hand I feel is a wrecking ball and would take Moloc, especially in fluff. Same with calgar but that guy works miracles in fluff so its hard to say he would lose to anyone.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Then it would turn into a pokemon battle of sending in your champions xD
I still find it funny that Moloc loses to Dante in TT - I honestly didn't expect to see that. I thought Unwieldy would slow him down too much but apparently not.
EDIT:
Arjac Rockfist - I choose you!
(In TT - I've seen him take down a bloodthirster...some good rolling)
I love how people still fight for Moloc when we've already seen the mathhammer-he loses to Dante. Dante may be I1, may not be IW and may not be an uber special snowflake to end all snowflakes but the numbers show. On top of that, how do you rationalize that because moloc can come back moloc wins? he died in the brawl he's out of it unless his chapter comes to retrieve him. And if we bring in chapters BT wins by default. In the superweight battle he'd be dead, trampled to death under armored boots and unable to be revived (1000 marines against 999 CM's? not too 1-sided there...). although my vote's still gor the guy who has common sense to bring a big gun to the knife fight. Mephiston i choose you!
I don't know enough fluff (only read 1 Ragnar book) to throw in an opinion but after reading every post (yes all 7 pages) my money is on Dante. But you gotta remember there's other things to other than who's better equipped and who's got more experience (both very large factors but not the only things). You gotta look at things like whats the setting (arena, Forrest, tunnels, etc) terrain and the ability/wisdom to use it will play a large factor. Personal relationships will play a part as well (does the CM have good personal relationships with 3 CMs and will most likely save those for last). Weather/planetary comditions (150km/hr winds make a shield a huge disadvantage. Large electrical storms make a jump pack a liability). Wounds received from dealing with other CMs prior to this engagement play a part as well as wild card CMs like the salamanders or raven guard (my personal favourite chapter). There's simply not enough factors to make an educated none TT assessment
The arguments about previous victories carry little weight since what works for 1 won't work for another and the argument about coming back is pointless; to come back you have to have lost to do that as stated previously
Thatguyhsagun wrote: I love how people still fight for Moloc when we've already seen the mathhammer-he loses to Dante. Dante may be I1, may not be IW and may not be an uber special snowflake to end all snowflakes but the numbers show. On top of that, how do you rationalize that because moloc can come back moloc wins? he died in the brawl he's out of it unless his chapter comes to retrieve him. And if we bring in chapters BT wins by default. In the superweight battle he'd be dead, trampled to death under armored boots and unable to be revived (1000 marines against 999 CM's? not too 1-sided there...). although my vote's still gor the guy who has common sense to bring a big gun to the knife fight.
Mephiston i choose you!
Look call me old fashioned but I think mathhammer is for chumps ive seen mathhammer fail one too many times on those that use it ive seen a punisher tank completely whiff, ive seen a IG heavy weapons team take down a DP, ive had an archons shadow field shrug off 18 wounds from a deathwing termie squad, so you know what you can take that mathammer and put it away the TT is where the truth lies and me and my bestie ran the battle 6 times swapping characters each time and guess what Moloc won 4/6 times soo yup!
bigboss1o1 wrote: sorry your right i meant 21st founding whoops but I still say Dante, Calgar, Logan all are lost causes, two other big reasons why despite the one's ive already stated they are honorable Moloc is not where they would hesitate to strike down a battle brother Moloc wouldnt think twice he's mentally unstable and paranoid as hell, second Moloc nor his Minotaurs are no ordinary geneseed there a super super human geneseed with obvious defects, super secret science projects of the adeptas biologicus soo count him off if you want I know the truth all those others are old and outdated and ready for replacement Moloc's whole career has been founded on taking out chapter masters he's a specialist at his craft like no other.
I'm sorry but there is no indication in the fluff that says that Space Marines have some sort of super conscience that prevents them from killing other Space Marines. You are just making stuff up at this point. In the Blood Angel books I read this was never the case. Just read up on Arkio & Rafen. They were even REAL BLOODLINE brother and Rafen still killed Arkio when he needed to.
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Sasa0mg wrote: You can assume so but neither have ever done it so you can't be sure. They're is a good chance that they might not in which case they done-pooped.........................
You however can be sure? This whole time you've argued that Moloc would pretty much own ANY OTHER Chapter Master but when we tell you you're talking rubbish you then retort "you can't be sure". Please, enough with the shenanigans now. Its getting tiresome.
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Thatguyhsagun wrote: I love how people still fight for Moloc when we've already seen the mathhammer-he loses to Dante. Dante may be I1, may not be IW and may not be an uber special snowflake to end all snowflakes but the numbers show. On top of that, how do you rationalize that because moloc can come back moloc wins? he died in the brawl he's out of it unless his chapter comes to retrieve him. And if we bring in chapters BT wins by default. In the superweight battle he'd be dead, trampled to death under armored boots and unable to be revived (1000 marines against 999 CM's? not too 1-sided there...). although my vote's still gor the guy who has common sense to bring a big gun to the knife fight.
Mephiston i choose you!
I think the assumption they are making is that Moloc is learning, every time he regenerates after being killed. I don't think that is necessarily true.
If history repeats itself, and the unexpected always happens, how incapable must Man be of learning from experience - George Bernard Shaw
Brutal Viking wrote: I don't know enough fluff (only read 1 Ragnar book) to throw in an opinion but after reading every post (yes all 7 pages) my money is on Dante. But you gotta remember there's other things to other than who's better equipped and who's got more experience (both very large factors but not the only things). You gotta look at things like whats the setting (arena, Forrest, tunnels, etc) terrain and the ability/wisdom to use it will play a large factor. Personal relationships will play a part as well (does the CM have good personal relationships with 3 CMs and will most likely save those for last). Weather/planetary comditions (150km/hr winds make a shield a huge disadvantage. Large electrical storms make a jump pack a liability). Wounds received from dealing with other CMs prior to this engagement play a part as well as wild card CMs like the salamanders or raven guard (my personal favourite chapter). There's simply not enough factors to make an educated none TT assessment
Well you heard them. Moloc suffers from mental disorders and wants to kill every other Space Marine he meets. I honestly think that Dante, Logan, Calgar, Azrael, etc, etc will just team up and beat the absolute crap out of Moloc. Heck Dante and Calgar will hold him while Logan punches him multiple times square in the face.
The arguments about previous victories carry little weight since what works for 1 won't work for another and the argument about coming back is pointless; to come back you have to have lost to do that as stated previously
He doesn't really come back, only his memories come back. Destroy the equipment that holds his memories then destroy him.
Thatguyhsagun wrote: I love how people still fight for Moloc when we've already seen the mathhammer-he loses to Dante. Dante may be I1, may not be IW and may not be an uber special snowflake to end all snowflakes but the numbers show. On top of that, how do you rationalize that because moloc can come back moloc wins? he died in the brawl he's out of it unless his chapter comes to retrieve him. And if we bring in chapters BT wins by default. In the superweight battle he'd be dead, trampled to death under armored boots and unable to be revived (1000 marines against 999 CM's? not too 1-sided there...). although my vote's still gor the guy who has common sense to bring a big gun to the knife fight.
Mephiston i choose you!
Look call me old fashioned but I think mathhammer is for chumps ive seen mathhammer fail one too many times on those that use it ive seen a punisher tank completely whiff, ive seen a IG heavy weapons team take down a DP, ive had an archons shadow field shrug off 18 wounds from a deathwing termie squad, so you know what you can take that mathammer and put it away the TT is where the truth lies and me and my bestie ran the battle 6 times swapping characters each time and guess what Moloc won 4/6 times soo yup!
Math is bad, OK.
Yes Mr Mackie, we hear you. Wouldn't want to use objective statistics to make a point would we?
Thatguyhsagun wrote: I love how people still fight for Moloc when we've already seen the mathhammer-he loses to Dante. Dante may be I1, may not be IW and may not be an uber special snowflake to end all snowflakes but the numbers show. On top of that, how do you rationalize that because moloc can come back moloc wins? he died in the brawl he's out of it unless his chapter comes to retrieve him. And if we bring in chapters BT wins by default. In the superweight battle he'd be dead, trampled to death under armored boots and unable to be revived (1000 marines against 999 CM's? not too 1-sided there...). although my vote's still gor the guy who has common sense to bring a big gun to the knife fight.
Mephiston i choose you!
Look call me old fashioned but I think mathhammer is for chumps ive seen mathhammer fail one too many times on those that use it ive seen a punisher tank completely whiff, ive seen a IG heavy weapons team take down a DP, ive had an archons shadow field shrug off 18 wounds from a deathwing termie squad, so you know what you can take that mathammer and put it away the TT is where the truth lies and me and my bestie ran the battle 6 times swapping characters each time and guess what Moloc won 4/6 times soo yup!
Math hammer speaks to the average. I flipped a coin 6 times just now and got 5 heads and a tails. I then go on a website that allows you to flip a coin with a 50/50 chance of either and told it to calculate 100 flips. 56 heads to 44 tails. Closer to even right? I then told it to calculate 10000 results. 496 heads to 504 tails. Run the simulation 1000 times and you'll see the trend more than if you run it 6 times. And to be sure, you used the mask, (-1 WS, A, I and W) and started them in base to base?
bigboss1o1 wrote: sorry your right i meant 21st founding whoops but I still say Dante, Calgar, Logan all are lost causes, two other big reasons why despite the one's ive already stated they are honorable Moloc is not where they would hesitate to strike down a battle brother Moloc wouldnt think twice he's mentally unstable and paranoid as hell, second Moloc nor his Minotaurs are no ordinary geneseed there a super super human geneseed with obvious defects, super secret science projects of the adeptas biologicus soo count him off if you want I know the truth all those others are old and outdated and ready for replacement Moloc's whole career has been founded on taking out chapter masters he's a specialist at his craft like no other.
I'm sorry but there is no indication in the fluff that says that Space Marines have some sort of super conscience that prevents them from killing other Space Marines. You are just making stuff up at this point. In the Blood Angel books I read this was never the case. Just read up on Arkio & Rafen. They were even REAL BLOODLINE brother and Rafen still killed Arkio when he needed to.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sasa0mg wrote: You can assume so but neither have ever done it so you can't be sure. They're is a good chance that they might not in which case they done-pooped.........................
You however can be sure? This whole time you've argued that Moloc would pretty much own ANY OTHER Chapter Master but when we tell you you're talking rubbish you then retort "you can't be sure". Please, enough with the shenanigans now. Its getting tiresome.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thatguyhsagun wrote: I love how people still fight for Moloc when we've already seen the mathhammer-he loses to Dante. Dante may be I1, may not be IW and may not be an uber special snowflake to end all snowflakes but the numbers show. On top of that, how do you rationalize that because moloc can come back moloc wins? he died in the brawl he's out of it unless his chapter comes to retrieve him. And if we bring in chapters BT wins by default. In the superweight battle he'd be dead, trampled to death under armored boots and unable to be revived (1000 marines against 999 CM's? not too 1-sided there...). although my vote's still gor the guy who has common sense to bring a big gun to the knife fight.
Mephiston i choose you!
I think the assumption they are making is that Moloc is learning, every time he regenerates after being killed. I don't think that is necessarily true.
If history repeats itself, and the unexpected always happens, how incapable must Man be of learning from experience - George Bernard Shaw
Thats the thing im telling you I am sure you keep feeding me the same two stories for both OHHHHHH I beat Skarbrand the EX!!!! khorne champ probably for a reason, and OHHHHHH im some super wolf crap ok there teenwolf all those examples are irrelevant to the ability to kill space marines or chapter masters if you wanna throw skarbrand out there then gak ill throw great boss Tuska (orks) who fought Khorne his self for hours and then after khorne killed him he flipped him off. Now that is hardcore I know it has nothing to do with the argument but man I love that story.
bigboss1o1 wrote: sorry your right i meant 21st founding whoops but I still say Dante, Calgar, Logan all are lost causes, two other big reasons why despite the one's ive already stated they are honorable Moloc is not where they would hesitate to strike down a battle brother Moloc wouldnt think twice he's mentally unstable and paranoid as hell, second Moloc nor his Minotaurs are no ordinary geneseed there a super super human geneseed with obvious defects, super secret science projects of the adeptas biologicus soo count him off if you want I know the truth all those others are old and outdated and ready for replacement Moloc's whole career has been founded on taking out chapter masters he's a specialist at his craft like no other.
I'm sorry but there is no indication in the fluff that says that Space Marines have some sort of super conscience that prevents them from killing other Space Marines. You are just making stuff up at this point. In the Blood Angel books I read this was never the case. Just read up on Arkio & Rafen. They were even REAL BLOODLINE brother and Rafen still killed Arkio when he needed to.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sasa0mg wrote: You can assume so but neither have ever done it so you can't be sure. They're is a good chance that they might not in which case they done-pooped.........................
You however can be sure? This whole time you've argued that Moloc would pretty much own ANY OTHER Chapter Master but when we tell you you're talking rubbish you then retort "you can't be sure". Please, enough with the shenanigans now. Its getting tiresome.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thatguyhsagun wrote: I love how people still fight for Moloc when we've already seen the mathhammer-he loses to Dante. Dante may be I1, may not be IW and may not be an uber special snowflake to end all snowflakes but the numbers show. On top of that, how do you rationalize that because moloc can come back moloc wins? he died in the brawl he's out of it unless his chapter comes to retrieve him. And if we bring in chapters BT wins by default. In the superweight battle he'd be dead, trampled to death under armored boots and unable to be revived (1000 marines against 999 CM's? not too 1-sided there...). although my vote's still gor the guy who has common sense to bring a big gun to the knife fight.
Mephiston i choose you!
I think the assumption they are making is that Moloc is learning, every time he regenerates after being killed. I don't think that is necessarily true.
If history repeats itself, and the unexpected always happens, how incapable must Man be of learning from experience - George Bernard Shaw
Thats the thing im telling you I am sure you keep feeding me the same two stories for both OHHHHHH I beat Skarbrand the EX!!!! khorne champ probably for a reason, and OHHHHHH im some super wolf crap ok there teenwolf all those examples are irrelevant to the ability to kill space marines or chapter masters if you wanna throw skarbrand out there then gak ill throw great boss Tuska (orks) who fought Khorne his self for hours and then after khorne killed him he flipped him off. Now that is hardcore I know it has nothing to do with the argument but man I love that story.
The fact of the matter is Moloc has died several times. All we need to do is kill him one more time, which isn't difficult to do by the sounds of it and then destroy his memories. Easy as that.
hey despite all the arguing I want you to know I love you guys Im currently deployed and this forum I made has kept me occupied for the past couple of days i love to argue lol keep it coming boys I still got some fight in me Im going night night but ill be back in the morn with more research lol
bigboss1o1 wrote: hey despite all the arguing I want you to know I love you guys Im currently deployed and this forum I made has kept me occupied for the past couple of days i love to argue lol keep it coming boys I still got some fight in me Im going night night but ill be back in the morn with more research lol
Research? Is that what you call it. Where I come from that's called crap.
bigboss1o1 wrote: hey despite all the arguing I want you to know I love you guys Im currently deployed and this forum I made has kept me occupied for the past couple of days i love to argue lol keep it coming boys I still got some fight in me Im going night night but ill be back in the morn with more research lol
Research? Is that what you call it. Where I come from that's called crap.
no what you guys have been feeding me is crap ohh he wins cus he's awesome, yeah I seen that wow what an argument if thats the case then Moloc wins cus he's........awesome x 1000000 to the second Chuck Norris.
Automatically Appended Next Post: by the way SGT Chronus I choose you-
Automatically Appended Next Post: UHH OH Dante and Moloc are tied
bigboss1o1 wrote: hey despite all the arguing I want you to know I love you guys Im currently deployed and this forum I made has kept me occupied for the past couple of days i love to argue lol keep it coming boys I still got some fight in me Im going night night but ill be back in the morn with more research lol
Research? Is that what you call it. Where I come from that's called crap.
no what you guys have been feeding me is crap ohh he wins cus he's awesome, yeah I seen that wow what an argument if thats the case then Moloc wins cus he's........awesome x 1000000 to the second Chuck Norris.
Automatically Appended Next Post: by the way SGT Chronus I choose you-
Automatically Appended Next Post: UHH OH Dante and Moloc are tied
I didnt know mathhammer, the fact hes survived on the front lines (and the corruption of his gene-seed), slain Skarbrand and is the best tactical mind the Imperium has to offer (READ: even the UM submitted to his command, and the CA didnt say to) was a load of crap wheras "he has the best the Inqusition can afford and kills other CM's all the time, oh and he's died 7 times in 500 years but its cool because he just gets rebuilt (billion dollar man?)" was super awesome debate prowess that proves he could kill anyone? Also, saying hes able to outmaneuver dante while in TDA? OK C. S. Goto
bigboss1o1 wrote: hey despite all the arguing I want you to know I love you guys Im currently deployed and this forum I made has kept me occupied for the past couple of days i love to argue lol keep it coming boys I still got some fight in me Im going night night but ill be back in the morn with more research lol
Research? Is that what you call it. Where I come from that's called crap.
no what you guys have been feeding me is crap ohh he wins cus he's awesome, yeah I seen that wow what an argument if thats the case then Moloc wins cus he's........awesome x 1000000 to the second Chuck Norris.
You have a very selective memory don't you?
Automatically Appended Next Post: by the way SGT Chronus I choose you-
Automatically Appended Next Post: UHH OH Dante and Moloc are tied
Doesn't matter, he isn't going to win the poll in the long run.
bigboss1o1 wrote: hey despite all the arguing I want you to know I love you guys Im currently deployed and this forum I made has kept me occupied for the past couple of days i love to argue lol keep it coming boys I still got some fight in me Im going night night but ill be back in the morn with more research lol
Research? Is that what you call it. Where I come from that's called crap.
no what you guys have been feeding me is crap ohh he wins cus he's awesome, yeah I seen that wow what an argument if thats the case then Moloc wins cus he's........awesome x 1000000 to the second Chuck Norris.
You have a very selective memory don't you?
Automatically Appended Next Post: by the way SGT Chronus I choose you-
Automatically Appended Next Post: UHH OH Dante and Moloc are tied
Doesn't matter, he isn't going to win the poll in the long run.
Well depends how many people read the thread first
bigboss1o1 wrote: hey despite all the arguing I want you to know I love you guys Im currently deployed and this forum I made has kept me occupied for the past couple of days i love to argue lol keep it coming boys I still got some fight in me Im going night night but ill be back in the morn with more research lol
Research? Is that what you call it. Where I come from that's called crap.
no what you guys have been feeding me is crap ohh he wins cus he's awesome, yeah I seen that wow what an argument if thats the case then Moloc wins cus he's........awesome x 1000000 to the second Chuck Norris.
Automatically Appended Next Post: by the way SGT Chronus I choose you-
Automatically Appended Next Post: UHH OH Dante and Moloc are tied
I didnt know mathhammer, the fact hes survived on the front lines (and the corruption of his gene-seed), slain Skarbrand and is the best tactical mind the Imperium has to offer (READ: even the UM submitted to his command, and the CA didnt say to) was a load of crap wheras "he has the best the Inqusition can afford and kills other CM's all the time, oh and he's died 7 times in 500 years but its cool because he just gets rebuilt (billion dollar man?)" was super awesome debate prowess that proves he could kill anyone? Also, saying hes able to outmaneuver dante while in TDA? OK C. S. Goto
here we go he died this he died that AT NO POINT IN ANY IMPERIAL ARMOUR OR ANY TEXT PERTAINING TO MOLOC OR THE MINOTAURS DOES IT SAY HE DIES!!! wow that is annoying its all just specudamnlation and no he might not be able to outmaneuver dante but its not like he cant maneuver around enough to not block any swing at him with his giant shield and its not like he cant blast him out of the sky or frekkin catch him with his spear on his way down.
bigboss1o1 wrote: hey despite all the arguing I want you to know I love you guys Im currently deployed and this forum I made has kept me occupied for the past couple of days i love to argue lol keep it coming boys I still got some fight in me Im going night night but ill be back in the morn with more research lol
Research? Is that what you call it. Where I come from that's called crap.
no what you guys have been feeding me is crap ohh he wins cus he's awesome, yeah I seen that wow what an argument if thats the case then Moloc wins cus he's........awesome x 1000000 to the second Chuck Norris.
Automatically Appended Next Post: by the way SGT Chronus I choose you-
Automatically Appended Next Post: UHH OH Dante and Moloc are tied
I didnt know mathhammer, the fact hes survived on the front lines (and the corruption of his gene-seed), slain Skarbrand and is the best tactical mind the Imperium has to offer (READ: even the UM submitted to his command, and the CA didnt say to) was a load of crap wheras "he has the best the Inqusition can afford and kills other CM's all the time, oh and he's died 7 times in 500 years but its cool because he just gets rebuilt (billion dollar man?)" was super awesome debate prowess that proves he could kill anyone? Also, saying hes able to outmaneuver dante while in TDA? OK C. S. Goto
here we go he died this he died that AT NO POINT IN ANY IMPERIAL ARMOUR OR ANY TEXT PERTAINING TO MOLOC OR THE MINOTAURS DOES IT SAY HE DIES!!! wow that is annoying its all just specudamnlation and no he might not be able to outmaneuver dante but its not like he cant maneuver around enough to not block any swing at him with his giant shield and its not like he cant blast him out of the sky or frekkin catch him with his spear on his way down.
Ever try stabbing a guy behind you with a spear in armor that doesn't let you move your arms ( and funnily enough seems to reposition them above your head and behind your ears? im serious look at the terminator captain)? i havent but it seems like itd be quite difficult. Also if he didnt die why did he change 7 times in 500 years?
If hes so damn tactical he should know to not go after him at all because he has him beat at long medium and close range and let him and Calgar settle there differences since ultrasmurfs have such disdain for the minotaurs.
Automatically Appended Next Post: yes yes feed me more votes dont care who you vote for (Moloc) but yes i want at least one vote for everyone.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Night all love you guys be back in the morn.
bigboss1o1 wrote: If hes so damn tactical he should know to not go after him at all because he has him beat at long medium and close range and let him and Calgar settle there differences since ultrasmurfs have such disdain for the minotaurs.
So he wins, he wins or he wins how does Moloc beat him? he gets a single shot that has less than a 50% chance to kill him (too tired to bother the math hammer) whereas Dante has a meltagun that he can use repeatedly. Means short range dante wins. Melee youve already seen the numbers, dante wins. Calgar kills him, Dante wins. Moloc gets calgar dante mops him up because hes wounded. Or plays it smarter and leaves him alone to die by anothers hand. Sure dante may die, but not to moloc. We've proven that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
King Pariah wrote: Lia Issodon of the Raptors would be in the corner, perfectly camouflaged, sniping everyone. Headshots all around.
Muzzle flash and bang make for an easy identification. Also, its a brawl so we're focusing on the melee aspect. Also if we do homebrew id like to point out my current CM is in a Venerable Ironclad armor with a hurricane melta array and an I5 thunder hammer... sure he costs 325 points but he aint gonna die to anything short of a Cfist or Mbomb
bigboss1o1 wrote: hey despite all the arguing I want you to know I love you guys Im currently deployed and this forum I made has kept me occupied for the past couple of days i love to argue lol keep it coming boys I still got some fight in me Im going night night but ill be back in the morn with more research lol
Research? Is that what you call it. Where I come from that's called crap.
no what you guys have been feeding me is crap ohh he wins cus he's awesome, yeah I seen that wow what an argument if thats the case then Moloc wins cus he's........awesome x 1000000 to the second Chuck Norris.
Automatically Appended Next Post: by the way SGT Chronus I choose you-
Automatically Appended Next Post: UHH OH Dante and Moloc are tied
I didnt know mathhammer, the fact hes survived on the front lines (and the corruption of his gene-seed), slain Skarbrand and is the best tactical mind the Imperium has to offer (READ: even the UM submitted to his command, and the CA didnt say to) was a load of crap wheras "he has the best the Inqusition can afford and kills other CM's all the time, oh and he's died 7 times in 500 years but its cool because he just gets rebuilt (billion dollar man?)" was super awesome debate prowess that proves he could kill anyone? Also, saying hes able to outmaneuver dante while in TDA? OK C. S. Goto
here we go he died this he died that AT NO POINT IN ANY IMPERIAL ARMOUR OR ANY TEXT PERTAINING TO MOLOC OR THE MINOTAURS DOES IT SAY HE DIES!!! wow that is annoying its all just specudamnlation and no he might not be able to outmaneuver dante but its not like he cant maneuver around enough to not block any swing at him with his giant shield and its not like he cant blast him out of the sky or frekkin catch him with his spear on his way down.
If he doesn't die then whats all this about his memories being transmitted from him onto his successor. Can you please get your story straight?
I'm pretty sure the raven guard CM would win anyway, shrike is pretty beast and he's not even the boss . He re-rolls 1 miss and re-rolls wounds plus given that he keeps his I5 with the claws
Bigboss is a troll... don't feed it, they just grow larger, louder, and less logical.
The second he's claiming Moloc has more renown feats and that the Big 3 would hesitate tells me he's either a little kid or a blind fanboy whose not actually up on his fluff. You're arguing against a wall of willful ignorance at this point folks, move on, nothing to see here at the troll cage.
Lobukia wrote: Bigboss is a troll... don't feed it, they just grow larger, louder, and less logical.
The second he's claiming Moloc has more renown feats and that the Big 3 would hesitate tells me he's either a little kid or a blind fanboy whose not actually up on his fluff. You're arguing against a wall of willful ignorance at this point folks, move on, nothing to see here at the troll cage.
I never claimed that he has more renowned feats I said he has more renowned feats that are relevant to this brawl the only trolls here are the ones who keep twisting up every said thing about Moloc and saying OOOOOOOOOH Dante because he beat skarbrand and is some badass tactician GOOD FOR YOU.. now Ill give Dante his due he would do some damage but I assure you realistically speaking Dante would fall in the end.
bigboss1o1 wrote: First of all I ran the two of them face to face already with real dice not some digital crap Moloc won 4/6 and second of all READ FIRST POST!
If your whole thing is melee range combat, then let's throw Belial in the mix with his fleshbane sword.
bigboss1o1 wrote: First of all I ran the two of them face to face already with real dice not some digital crap Moloc won 4/6 and second of all READ FIRST POST!
If your whole thing is melee range combat, then let's throw Belial in the mix with his fleshbane sword.
bigboss1o1 wrote: First of all I ran the two of them face to face already with real dice not some digital crap Moloc won 4/6 and second of all READ FIRST POST!
If your whole thing is melee range combat, then let's throw Belial in the mix with his fleshbane sword.
not a CM
Yeah because Azrael couldn't just say to Belial, "Hey broham, need that sword for a min, gotta hand Moloc his butt."
Oh, some facts on Moloc, page 176 BWv2: Only one shot from the Black Spear, which is a relic blade.
Moloc tries and fails to kill a Dark Apostle, Huron, and can't finish the job against the Lamenters. There is no mention of him being reborn in the BW books, so thats not even a thing.
Now lets go to Moloc in fall of Orpheus. He's clearly not that BA in the Badab War, just having a complete lack of honor and suspect genetic origins going for him (World Eater). The 21st founding is known for having been an attempt to use the time locked geneseeds from the excommunicated legions and it failed epically (except for maybe the Blood Ravens). (EDIT: found it, still only an engram at best) He gets an AP2 blade, and that's about it. I can't see him topping the successful CMs
In fact the allusion to shared experiences would be his trusty side-kick chaplain who appears to be the real mind behind it all with Moloc just being the idiot muscle.
Lobukia wrote: Oh, some facts on Moloc, page 176 BWv2: Only one shot from the Black Spear, which is a relic blade.
Moloc tries and fails to kill a Dark Apostle, Huron, and can't finish the job against the Lamenters. There is no mention of him being reborn in the BW books, so thats not even a thing.
Now lets go to Moloc in fall of Orpheus. He's clearly not that BA in the Badab War, just having a complete lack of honor and suspect genetic origins going for him (World Eater). The 21st founding is known for having been an attempt to use the time locked geneseeds from the excommunicated legions and it failed epically (except for maybe the Blood Ravens). I find nothing in the book to suggest that he can be reborn in any way other than name. (EDIT: found it, still only an engram at best) He gets an AP2 blade,
In fact the allusion to shared experiences would be his trusty side-kick chaplain who appears to be the real mind behind it all with Moloc just being the idiot muscle.
Uhhhh you might want to reread that the dark apostle is beaten and retreats, Huron beaten and retreats, lamenters crushed and forced into a humiliating surrender.
bigboss1o1 wrote: First of all I ran the two of them face to face already with real dice not some digital crap Moloc won 4/6 and second of all READ FIRST POST!
Hey bigboss, I don't remember Moloc beating any Greater Daemons in the fluff, or really anyone personally for that matter. The Minotaurs themselves are have a bigger condition of kleptomania than the Blood Ravens do.
I voted Dante. On the TT we know he beats Moloc, and in the fluff he seems to have more feats to his name. Also, I'd rather have a CM who knows how to stay alive by fighting when he needs to instead of a guy that puts himself on the forefront to die in "glorius" combat.
bigboss1o1 wrote: First of all I ran the two of them face to face already with real dice not some digital crap Moloc won 4/6 and second of all READ FIRST POST!
And we're done. Thanks for playing folks!
Do I need to get you a shovel and pale so you can get all that sand out of your sacred wound.
bigboss1o1 wrote: First of all I ran the two of them face to face already with real dice not some digital crap Moloc won 4/6 and second of all READ FIRST POST!
And we're done. Thanks for playing folks!
Do I need to get you a shovel and pale so you can get all that sand out of your sacred wound.
No, you need to learn how basic probability calculation works. For what it's worth, I put Moloc up against a Scout and the Scout won 4/6. See how silly that is?
Disregarding TT (where the numbers show on average dante wins) what has Moloc killed thats actually big and bad? im sure his chapter clashing against another is quite a stunt ut what did Moloc himself kill? In the fluff dante takes on a Greater Daemon (ex) champion of khorne and wins. Pair that with him fighting for centuries every enemy of the imperium (the faceless masses to fall before his blade) and i think its clear
Thatguyhsagun wrote: Disregarding TT (where the numbers show on average dante wins) what has Moloc killed thats actually big and bad? im sure his chapter clashing against another is quite a stunt ut what did Moloc himself kill? In the fluff dante takes on a Greater Daemon (ex) champion of khorne and wins. Pair that with him fighting for centuries every enemy of the imperium (the faceless masses to fall before his blade) and i think its clear
Except the thing about Skarbrand is that it's been branded a myth, not actual fact. Quoted from the Blood Angels codex:
So long now has Dante lived that his exploits have passed into myth. It is now impossible to say how many Ork heads Dante cleaved at the Liberation of Canau, for the tally grows greater each time the story is recounted. Did Dante truly defeat the Bloodthirster Skarbrand before the Gates of Pandemonium? Was it indeed a single mighty blow that clove the daemon in twain? Only Dante himself can say with certainty. Yet he speaks not on such events, no matter how much the exaggerated nature of such tales must rankle his warrior pride.
And even then it still speaks like a tall tale. Skarbrand being killed in one hit by Dante's normal weapon? I know the Avatar's are now shown as weaklings to be killed, but one of the greatest of Khorne's Generals being taken down in one hit?
1: People need to relax, can't help but feel the debate is getting into highrate argument territory.
2: The fact that dante is top of the space marine chapter masters just makes me believe that there are far, far too many blood angels fans here to be ignoring Logon, Calgar and dispite everyones apparent hate Moloc.
You however can be sure? This whole time you've argued that Moloc would pretty much own ANY OTHER Chapter Master but when we tell you you're talking rubbish you then retort "you can't be sure". Please, enough with the shenanigans now. Its getting tiresome.
I'm not in the mind moloc would beat any other chapter master. Dante however has a mask and an axe and has absolutely nothing overtly special going for him other then the fact he's so incredibly old.
Also given that Minotaur were one of the first 21 founding cursed legion if you want to include 'unsurities' as definite then we can assume that moloc may potentially date back to just after the horus heresy when the Minotaur disappeared off the universe into secrecy. Ir respectable of the amount of times he has died he has always come back which would make him more of a veteran of combat then dante.
Also bare in mind due to him being a forge world chapter master and chapter there isn't as much thorough history written just in the brief documents he is named as being an extremely awe inspiring fighter who has had a number of named personal victories and over the course of several centuries even in defeat has not been defeated and never lost.
I love how people still fight for Moloc when we've already seen the mathhammer-he loses to Dante.
Once and for all we need to leave mathhammer out of this completely as we who support moloc have been told several times not to involve it as its not in the OP.
My 2 cents on that however is I'm unsure of the process of said math hammer or where the information / data comes from but ultimately the only edge dante has is his mask and as far as fluff goes, he just might not look at it. He has a shield and it works for several reasons.
Also has anyone seen a gladiator fighting with a spear or shield? Maybe even 300 would prove to be enough evidence as to how thats going to work with a slow single ax vs a spear and shield the ability to both block and thrust simultaneously gives moloc quite a significant advantage in pure combat style.
As for the argument about his terminator armor slowing him down. Ugh... The terminator armour he is wearing is not your average 'space hulk boarding armor" or even your decaying adeptus astartes current edition terminator armor. This is the best most expensive and advanced armor money can buy. The stuff people don't put marines in because they're lives aren't worth the cost or potential loss of the suit of armor.
I also have to say in regards to characters there is little to no evidence that it slows people down, the emperor wore terminator armor, horus wore terminator armor, abaddon wears terminator armor, Draigo wears terminator armor, lysander, logon etc etc and of all the things that physically impair there capability in combat i.e there reaction speed, weapon proficiency it is there WEAPONS, the two handed axes, the power fist, the thunder hammer if not for that these units of terminator armor really don't slow people down and when you get to the terminator armor that Moloc is actually wearing he has no less maneuverability on the spot then any other marine, he merely can't run the same. His ability to turn, thrust an arm, raise another to turn block thrust is not hindered at all.
Also I think you would need to challenge the high lords of terra in order to obtain Moloc's collective memory in order to destroy him.
I think dante would just make himself a martyr of his own primarch, come in with his balls held high thinking he's going in with 1100 years of I know I do best I haven't died before getting a rude awakening prior to falling over pa-lop like his primarch did to oh hay, someone in terminator armor. It would almost be an action replay!
(xD lol)
But seriously some people seem to be getting really leery in regards to this debate, chillout xD that goes for bigboss too
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think Logon and calgar would take Dante as well in all honesty.
But calgar vs logon is a tough one. I think they are both out of Moloc's league, logon only slightly but again Calgar... the stuff that guy has done with his bare hands you can only look questioningly at the magic he can pull fluff wise.
1: People need to relax, can't help but feel the debate is getting into highrate argument territory.
2: The fact that dante is top of the space marine chapter masters just makes me believe that there are far, far too many blood angels fans here to be ignoring Logon, Calgar and dispite everyones apparent hate Moloc.
You however can be sure? This whole time you've argued that Moloc would pretty much own ANY OTHER Chapter Master but when we tell you you're talking rubbish you then retort "you can't be sure". Please, enough with the shenanigans now. Its getting tiresome.
I'm not in the mind moloc would beat any other chapter master. Dante however has a mask and an axe and has absolutely nothing overtly special going for him other then the fact he's so incredibly old.
Also given that Minotaur were one of the first 21 founding cursed legion if you want to include 'unsurities' as definite then we can assume that moloc may potentially date back to just after the horus heresy when the Minotaur disappeared off the universe into secrecy. Ir respectable of the amount of times he has died he has always come back which would make him more of a veteran of combat then dante.
Also bare in mind due to him being a forge world chapter master and chapter there isn't as much thorough history written just in the brief documents he is named as being an extremely awe inspiring fighter who has had a number of named personal victories and over the course of several centuries even in defeat has not been defeated and never lost.
I love how people still fight for Moloc when we've already seen the mathhammer-he loses to Dante.
Once and for all we need to leave mathhammer out of this completely as we who support moloc have been told several times not to involve it as its not in the OP.
My 2 cents on that however is I'm unsure of the process of said math hammer or where the information / data comes from but ultimately the only edge dante has is his mask and as far as fluff goes, he just might not look at it. He has a shield and it works for several reasons.
Also has anyone seen a gladiator fighting with a spear or shield? Maybe even 300 would prove to be enough evidence as to how thats going to work with a slow single ax vs a spear and shield the ability to both block and thrust simultaneously gives moloc quite a significant advantage in pure combat style.
As for the argument about his terminator armor slowing him down. Ugh... The terminator armour he is wearing is not your average 'space hulk boarding armor" or even your decaying adeptus astartes current edition terminator armor. This is the best most expensive and advanced armor money can buy. The stuff people don't put marines in because they're lives aren't worth the cost or potential loss of the suit of armor.
I also have to say in regards to characters there is little to no evidence that it slows people down, the emperor wore terminator armor, horus wore terminator armor, abaddon wears terminator armor, Draigo wears terminator armor, lysander, logon etc etc and of all the things that physically impair there capability in combat i.e there reaction speed, weapon proficiency it is there WEAPONS, the two handed axes, the power fist, the thunder hammer if not for that these units of terminator armor really don't slow people down and when you get to the terminator armor that Moloc is actually wearing he has no less maneuverability on the spot then any other marine, he merely can't run the same. His ability to turn, thrust an arm, raise another to turn block thrust is not hindered at all.
Also I think you would need to challenge the high lords of terra in order to obtain Moloc's collective memory in order to destroy him.
I think dante would just make himself a martyr of his own primarch, come in with his balls held high thinking he's going in with 1100 years of I know I do best I haven't died before getting a rude awakening prior to falling over pa-lop like his primarch did to oh hay, someone in terminator armor. It would almost be an action replay!
(xD lol)
But seriously some people seem to be getting really leery in regards to this debate, chillout xD that goes for bigboss too
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think Logon and calgar would take Dante as well in all honesty.
But calgar vs logon is a tough one. I think they are both out of Moloc's league, logon only slightly but again Calgar... the stuff that guy has done with his bare hands you can only look questioningly at the magic he can pull fluff wise.
Gotta love Plot armor and 20 years of Codex: Ultramarines
1: People need to relax, can't help but feel the debate is getting into highrate argument territory.
2: The fact that dante is top of the space marine chapter masters just makes me believe that there are far, far too many blood angels fans here to be ignoring Logon, Calgar and dispite everyones apparent hate Moloc.
You however can be sure? This whole time you've argued that Moloc would pretty much own ANY OTHER Chapter Master but when we tell you you're talking rubbish you then retort "you can't be sure". Please, enough with the shenanigans now. Its getting tiresome.
I'm not in the mind moloc would beat any other chapter master. Dante however has a mask and an axe and has absolutely nothing overtly special going for him other then the fact he's so incredibly old.
Also given that Minotaur were one of the first 21 founding cursed legion if you want to include 'unsurities' as definite then we can assume that moloc may potentially date back to just after the horus heresy when the Minotaur disappeared off the universe into secrecy. Ir respectable of the amount of times he has died he has always come back which would make him more of a veteran of combat then dante.
Also bare in mind due to him being a forge world chapter master and chapter there isn't as much thorough history written just in the brief documents he is named as being an extremely awe inspiring fighter who has had a number of named personal victories and over the course of several centuries even in defeat has not been defeated and never lost.
I love how people still fight for Moloc when we've already seen the mathhammer-he loses to Dante.
Once and for all we need to leave mathhammer out of this completely as we who support moloc have been told several times not to involve it as its not in the OP.
My 2 cents on that however is I'm unsure of the process of said math hammer or where the information / data comes from but ultimately the only edge dante has is his mask and as far as fluff goes, he just might not look at it. He has a shield and it works for several reasons.
Also has anyone seen a gladiator fighting with a spear or shield? Maybe even 300 would prove to be enough evidence as to how thats going to work with a slow single ax vs a spear and shield the ability to both block and thrust simultaneously gives moloc quite a significant advantage in pure combat style.
As for the argument about his terminator armor slowing him down. Ugh... The terminator armour he is wearing is not your average 'space hulk boarding armor" or even your decaying adeptus astartes current edition terminator armor. This is the best most expensive and advanced armor money can buy. The stuff people don't put marines in because they're lives aren't worth the cost or potential loss of the suit of armor.
I also have to say in regards to characters there is little to no evidence that it slows people down, the emperor wore terminator armor, horus wore terminator armor, abaddon wears terminator armor, Draigo wears terminator armor, lysander, logon etc etc and of all the things that physically impair there capability in combat i.e there reaction speed, weapon proficiency it is there WEAPONS, the two handed axes, the power fist, the thunder hammer if not for that these units of terminator armor really don't slow people down and when you get to the terminator armor that Moloc is actually wearing he has no less maneuverability on the spot then any other marine, he merely can't run the same. His ability to turn, thrust an arm, raise another to turn block thrust is not hindered at all.
Also I think you would need to challenge the high lords of terra in order to obtain Moloc's collective memory in order to destroy him.
I think dante would just make himself a martyr of his own primarch, come in with his balls held high thinking he's going in with 1100 years of I know I do best I haven't died before getting a rude awakening prior to falling over pa-lop like his primarch did to oh hay, someone in terminator armor. It would almost be an action replay!
(xD lol)
But seriously some people seem to be getting really leery in regards to this debate, chillout xD that goes for bigboss too
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think Logon and calgar would take Dante as well in all honesty.
But calgar vs logon is a tough one. I think they are both out of Moloc's league, logon only slightly but again Calgar... the stuff that guy has done with his bare hands you can only look questioningly at the magic he can pull fluff wise.
Gotta love Plot armor and 20 years of Codex: Ultramarines
Thank you for making my Moloc Dante point although I must admit in the end I dont think Moloc would win simply because everyone hates him he has no even somewhat chance of any kind of ally and we all know Calgar would probably go right for him I think Dante is overrated as hell I think the only one he would really be able to take down completely would be his own buddy Seth.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You know what Sasa you might have done it I think its safe to progress this, all the Dante fanboys are gone lol I wish I knew more about Logan then I do about Calgar although from what I hear Tu' Shen is a force to be reckoned with as well.
1: People need to relax, can't help but feel the debate is getting into highrate argument territory.
2: The fact that dante is top of the space marine chapter masters just makes me believe that there are far, far too many blood angels fans here to be ignoring Logon, Calgar and dispite everyones apparent hate Moloc.
You however can be sure? This whole time you've argued that Moloc would pretty much own ANY OTHER Chapter Master but when we tell you you're talking rubbish you then retort "you can't be sure". Please, enough with the shenanigans now. Its getting tiresome.
I'm not in the mind moloc would beat any other chapter master. Dante however has a mask and an axe and has absolutely nothing overtly special going for him other then the fact he's so incredibly old.
Also given that Minotaur were one of the first 21 founding cursed legion if you want to include 'unsurities' as definite then we can assume that moloc may potentially date back to just after the horus heresy when the Minotaur disappeared off the universe into secrecy. Ir respectable of the amount of times he has died he has always come back which would make him more of a veteran of combat then dante.
Also bare in mind due to him being a forge world chapter master and chapter there isn't as much thorough history written just in the brief documents he is named as being an extremely awe inspiring fighter who has had a number of named personal victories and over the course of several centuries even in defeat has not been defeated and never lost.
I love how people still fight for Moloc when we've already seen the mathhammer-he loses to Dante.
Once and for all we need to leave mathhammer out of this completely as we who support moloc have been told several times not to involve it as its not in the OP.
My 2 cents on that however is I'm unsure of the process of said math hammer or where the information / data comes from but ultimately the only edge dante has is his mask and as far as fluff goes, he just might not look at it. He has a shield and it works for several reasons.
Also has anyone seen a gladiator fighting with a spear or shield? Maybe even 300 would prove to be enough evidence as to how thats going to work with a slow single ax vs a spear and shield the ability to both block and thrust simultaneously gives moloc quite a significant advantage in pure combat style.
As for the argument about his terminator armor slowing him down. Ugh... The terminator armour he is wearing is not your average 'space hulk boarding armor" or even your decaying adeptus astartes current edition terminator armor. This is the best most expensive and advanced armor money can buy. The stuff people don't put marines in because they're lives aren't worth the cost or potential loss of the suit of armor.
I also have to say in regards to characters there is little to no evidence that it slows people down, the emperor wore terminator armor, horus wore terminator armor, abaddon wears terminator armor, Draigo wears terminator armor, lysander, logon etc etc and of all the things that physically impair there capability in combat i.e there reaction speed, weapon proficiency it is there WEAPONS, the two handed axes, the power fist, the thunder hammer if not for that these units of terminator armor really don't slow people down and when you get to the terminator armor that Moloc is actually wearing he has no less maneuverability on the spot then any other marine, he merely can't run the same. His ability to turn, thrust an arm, raise another to turn block thrust is not hindered at all.
Also I think you would need to challenge the high lords of terra in order to obtain Moloc's collective memory in order to destroy him.
I think dante would just make himself a martyr of his own primarch, come in with his balls held high thinking he's going in with 1100 years of I know I do best I haven't died before getting a rude awakening prior to falling over pa-lop like his primarch did to oh hay, someone in terminator armor. It would almost be an action replay!
(xD lol)
But seriously some people seem to be getting really leery in regards to this debate, chillout xD that goes for bigboss too
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think Logon and calgar would take Dante as well in all honesty.
But calgar vs logon is a tough one. I think they are both out of Moloc's league, logon only slightly but again Calgar... the stuff that guy has done with his bare hands you can only look questioningly at the magic he can pull fluff wise.
Gotta love Plot armor and 20 years of Codex: Ultramarines
Thank you for making my Moloc Dante point although I must admit in the end I dont think Moloc would win simply because everyone hates him he has no even somewhat chance of any kind of ally and we all know Calgar would probably go right for him I think Dante is overrated as hell I think the only one he would really be able to take down completely would be his own buddy Seth.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You know what Sasa you might have done it I think its safe to progress this, all the Dante fanboys are gone lol I wish I knew more about Logan then I do about Calgar although from what I hear Tu' Shen is a force to be reckoned with as well.
You really call dante overrated? XD as opposed to the Iron Hands CM maybe but moloc has to be the most specialist snowflake of them all. And for the reference im a sallies fanboy theres just almost 0 background on Tu'Shan so you cant really take him into account as accurately as those that have actual models. Hell the only fluff i have seen on him is him giving command to dante and that within the Tome of Fire trilogy (anyone know where i can find more?)
Also the logic that the shield/spear gives him an edge youre assuming Dante is going to be in front of him. Dante would use the fact he is more mobile and can jump pack to his advantage. Sure spear+shield is good but the shield can only protect one side of his body and in reality he couldnt use his spear 300-style due to the terminator armor. He wouldnt have the range of shoulder motion to have the spear above the shield. Think about it. Rationally thinking the shoulder pads in terminator armor would inhibit the kind of movement that would make a straight armed thrust impossible, even in Power Armor.
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Sasa0mg wrote: Tu'Shan seems to be kinda illusive. Theres more background on Vulkan He'Stan then his own chapter master, which is kinda lame.
He'Stan is more important to them than the CM though. He's got the ability to take any force of salamanders he wants to aid him, no matter what they were doing.
Thatguyhsagun wrote: Also the logic that the shield/spear gives him an edge youre assuming Dante is going to be in front of him. Dante would use the fact he is more mobile and can jump pack to his advantage. Sure spear+shield is good but the shield can only protect one side of his body and in reality he couldnt use his spear 300-style due to the terminator armor. He wouldnt have the range of shoulder motion to have the spear above the shield. Think about it. Rationally thinking the shoulder pads in terminator armor would inhibit the kind of movement that would make a straight armed thrust impossible, even in Power Armor.
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Sasa0mg wrote: Tu'Shan seems to be kinda illusive. Theres more background on Vulkan He'Stan then his own chapter master, which is kinda lame.
He'Stan is more important to them than the CM though. He's got the ability to take any force of salamanders he wants to aid him, no matter what they were doing.
The problem is that his terminator armor isn't exactly standard issue. Which has been mentioned
Moloc's customary panoply of war is a highly modified suit of Artificer Tactical Dreadnought Armour, considered to be based upon the Tartaros Pattern Terminator Armour design. The Tartaros Pattern itself is a relic design among its kind, developed in the latter stages of the Great Crusade in the late 30th Millennium, and is marked for being lighter and more streamlined in its construction without reduction in its phenomenal durabilit
Thatguyhsagun wrote: Also the logic that the shield/spear gives him an edge youre assuming Dante is going to be in front of him. Dante would use the fact he is more mobile and can jump pack to his advantage. Sure spear+shield is good but the shield can only protect one side of his body and in reality he couldnt use his spear 300-style due to the terminator armor. He wouldnt have the range of shoulder motion to have the spear above the shield. Think about it. Rationally thinking the shoulder pads in terminator armor would inhibit the kind of movement that would make a straight armed thrust impossible, even in Power Armor.
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Sasa0mg wrote: Tu'Shan seems to be kinda illusive. Theres more background on Vulkan He'Stan then his own chapter master, which is kinda lame.
He'Stan is more important to them than the CM though. He's got the ability to take any force of salamanders he wants to aid him, no matter what they were doing.
The problem is that his terminator armor isn't exactly standard issue. Which has been mentioned
Moloc's customary panoply of war is a highly modified suit of Artificer Tactical Dreadnought Armour, considered to be based upon the Tartaros Pattern Terminator Armour design. The Tartaros Pattern itself is a relic design among its kind, developed in the latter stages of the Great Crusade in the late 30th Millennium, and is marked for being lighter and more streamlined in its construction without reduction in its phenomenal durabilit
As i said, even PA wouldnt be able to make that strike much less ANY kind of terminator armor. Without the thrust there is very little way to effectively make a killing blow with a spear. Limited to sweeping attacks and smaller and less powerful underhand thrusts.
For those curious: Calgar charging Moloc plays out like so:
Calgar shoots Moloc, doing .32 wounds and then does .83 wounds in combat. Moloc does .1 wounds in overwatch and then .851 wounds in combat (so each down one).
So AM's taken 1.15, CM taken .95
After that its a round of Moloc doing .95 on his round while Calgar only does .70
AM's taken 1.85 vs CM taking 1.9
If Calgar ever falls behind he can fail his save and charge back in, and Moloc can't shoot again. So its a race then, can Calgar drop out and shoot again on the charge? If he does, he could win the race to 4, if not, no chance (being slower)
Round two, AM would have taken 1.82 more and CM another 1.8 (new totals 3.67 and 3.7 at the end of round two) and if they're both still around on round 3, Calgar dies as AM is faster. AM walks away with a wound left.
On a battlefied, AM is screwed though, as if even a combat squad is within range 12' of the fight, and AM only gets shot at one turn, he dies and Calgar walks away with only a wound left.
EDIT: worth noting 5th edition Calgar would win, 6th edition he doesn't: I dunno
In regards to the spear upon making the block you push it forward and out, you open up your body slightly because you have there weapon on the shield as you open your body up with the twisted moment from the shield push you can use that to gain thrust for the spear. You wouldn't be holding your spear like that guy in the picture.
REALLY you want to talk about range of motion look at that helmet it looks like he suffers from batman forever syndrome can he even turn his head and with that jump pack that is almost as big as him im sure he's super fast and not a giant freggin target seriously can he even stand up straight with that thing.
Thatguyhsagun wrote: Also the logic that the shield/spear gives him an edge youre assuming Dante is going to be in front of him. Dante would use the fact he is more mobile and can jump pack to his advantage. Sure spear+shield is good but the shield can only protect one side of his body and in reality he couldnt use his spear 300-style due to the terminator armor. He wouldnt have the range of shoulder motion to have the spear above the shield. Think about it. Rationally thinking the shoulder pads in terminator armor would inhibit the kind of movement that would make a straight armed thrust impossible, even in Power Armor.
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Sasa0mg wrote: Tu'Shan seems to be kinda illusive. Theres more background on Vulkan He'Stan then his own chapter master, which is kinda lame.
He'Stan is more important to them than the CM though. He's got the ability to take any force of salamanders he wants to aid him, no matter what they were doing.
Sasa0mg wrote: In regards to the spear upon making the block you push it forward and out, you open up your body slightly because you have there weapon on the shield as you open your body up with the twisted moment from the shield push you can use that to gain thrust for the spear. You wouldn't be holding your spear like that guy in the picture.
And imo calgar is more a fluff hero then that
Even so he wont have the shoulder rotation to draw back, he would rely solely on the rotational movement at the hips (does that even work when your armor is one solid piece? i mean they may not reproduce but nobody wants to squish the frank and beans) and their ability to get the shield out of the way in time (again, no shoulder rotation to bring it up or back, he would have to drop it and bring the spear tip up) it would actually be a rather clumsy maneuver to execute, and wouldnt exactly be the fastest thing. He would block and go to push, rotating at his hips since he cant use his shoulder (admit it, the shoulder pad is jammed into the armor when hes just holding the shield) and would then need to swing the spear around with him (holding on somewhere near the midsection if he wants an accurate, powerful strike after the swing) and slide the shield down Dante's body and thrust at the same time before dante can dance back a few feet. My question is, he has longer reach why did he let dante inside to begin with?
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bigboss1o1 wrote: REALLY you want to talk about range of motion look at that helmet it looks like he suffers from batman forever syndrome can he even turn his head and with that jump pack that is almost as big as him im sure he's super fast and not a giant freggin target seriously can he even stand up straight with that thing.
He cant look behind him no, but when the target is infront thats no biggie. you damage the JP hes not gonna suffer. Also, in PA marines can lift up armored cars im sure a jump pack doesnt weigh 2+tonnes. He could easily stand up. Plus when using an axe, the shoulder rotates vertically as opposed to a spear that needs horizontal rotation to be effective. As for going "full slow" do you know ANY sallies fluff? He'Stan takes the name of their primarch and can use any tools in the salamander arsenal to get his quest done. That includes any manpower that is nearby. He operates outside the chapter organization and advises Tu'Shan when the Master needs help. He is viewed as the savior of the chapter, the one who will lead them to their Primarch and glory. He is more awe-inspiring to them than their CM, and is part man, pary myth to the chapter.
I think Moloc's armor is hinged quite well he's definitely a lot more menueverable judging by his model and art work then any other terminator armor I've seen I don't see why he wouldn't be able to move himself as he needed to be. And no I was meaning that the spear thrust would just ultimately be lower if need be but I think his armor allows for just as good bodily rotations and movements then regular space marine armor. As again some of the most formidable (highest WS characters) are featured in power armor so it can't be cumbersome to the point of causing any real degree of hindrance as far as bodily movements goes.
Also the point of power armor is to strengthen the bodies movements the fact the spear is a relic blade combined with the terminator armor and the fact that if your saying dante is descending upon him there would be enough accumulative force in place to see the thrust hit home with considerable enough force to kill.
And if your problem is with the him not being able to react in terminator armor either way I have to remind you that Dante isn't a dark eldar witch at this point, he's not simply going to ninja himself around fast enough to overwhelm him, nor is that jump pack silent enough to disguise what he's doing at any point either so he would know full well what was going on.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The stance would merely have the spear behind held withdrawn from the shield somewhat, not sitting over the top of it, or even extended out alongside of it. It would be being held around his ass like a mouse trap as soon as that shield hits, push snap. You've got your rat.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Is draigo actually a chapter master still, I thought he was just lost? And aren't the inquisition in charge of the gray knights?
I still think Calgar fluff wise as the OP wants is the no.1 spot for strongest chapter master
Followed by Logon / Moloc in a competition for 2nd
I wish they would do more with the sallies CM, Vulkan He'stan is stealing all the limelight.
Sasa0mg wrote: In regards to the spear upon making the block you push it forward and out, you open up your body slightly because you have there weapon on the shield as you open your body up with the twisted moment from the shield push you can use that to gain thrust for the spear. You wouldn't be holding your spear like that guy in the picture.
And imo calgar is more a fluff hero then that
Even so he wont have the shoulder rotation to draw back, he would rely solely on the rotational movement at the hips (does that even work when your armor is one solid piece? i mean they may not reproduce but nobody wants to squish the frank and beans) and their ability to get the shield out of the way in time (again, no shoulder rotation to bring it up or back, he would have to drop it and bring the spear tip up) it would actually be a rather clumsy maneuver to execute, and wouldnt exactly be the fastest thing. He would block and go to push, rotating at his hips since he cant use his shoulder (admit it, the shoulder pad is jammed into the armor when hes just holding the shield) and would then need to swing the spear around with him (holding on somewhere near the midsection if he wants an accurate, powerful strike after the swing) and slide the shield down Dante's body and thrust at the same time before dante can dance back a few feet. My question is, he has longer reach why did he let dante inside to begin with?
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bigboss1o1 wrote: REALLY you want to talk about range of motion look at that helmet it looks like he suffers from batman forever syndrome can he even turn his head and with that jump pack that is almost as big as him im sure he's super fast and not a giant freggin target seriously can he even stand up straight with that thing.
He cant look behind him no, but when the target is infront thats no biggie. you damage the JP hes not gonna suffer. Also, in PA marines can lift up armored cars im sure a jump pack doesnt weigh 2+tonnes. He could easily stand up. Plus when using an axe, the shoulder rotates vertically as opposed to a spear that needs horizontal rotation to be effective. As for going "full slow" do you know ANY sallies fluff? He'Stan takes the name of their primarch and can use any tools in the salamander arsenal to get his quest done. That includes any manpower that is nearby. He operates outside the chapter organization and advises Tu'Shan when the Master needs help. He is viewed as the savior of the chapter, the one who will lead them to their Primarch and glory. He is more awe-inspiring to them than their CM, and is part man, pary myth to the chapter.
Have you ever worn terminator armor? Im sure you havnt soo dont argue range of motion when termies have access to weapons like thunder hammers lightning claws, mauls, axes, swords, and spears which require all manner of movements horizontal and vertical your argument is invalid, and just because the shoulder pads are fixed on the model does not mean its fixed as an actual suit of armor thrusting a spear does not require you to be able to do the YMCA just a decent horizontal range of motion, and dont tell me that JP isnt something to worry about thats a giant fuel tank on his back and with all this metal on metal action a spark and BOOOM lol
Sasa0mg wrote: I think Moloc's armor is hinged quite well he's definitely a lot more menueverable judging by his model and art work then any other terminator armor I've seen I don't see why he wouldn't be able to move himself as he needed to be. And no I was meaning that the spear thrust would just ultimately be lower if need be but I think his armor allows for just as good bodily rotations and movements then regular space marine armor. As again some of the most formidable (highest WS characters) are featured in power armor so it can't be cumbersome to the point of causing any real degree of hindrance as far as bodily movements goes.
Also the point of power armor is to strengthen the bodies movements the fact the spear is a relic blade combined with the terminator armor and the fact that if your saying dante is descending upon him there would be enough accumulative force in place to see the thrust hit home with considerable enough force to kill.
And if your problem is with the him not being able to react in terminator armor either way I have to remind you that Dante isn't a dark eldar witch at this point, he's not simply going to ninja himself around fast enough to overwhelm him, nor is that jump pack silent enough to disguise what he's doing at any point either so he would know full well what was going on.
It wouldnt be more maneuverable than Power armor, although he would be more maneuverable than any TDA out there. Still wont be able to draw back. Also, as its a brawl youd know your opponent is there, im saying if he deflects an axe strike (and the shield holds up) he would be slower to push Dante off and make a good thrust than dante would be to get out of attack range. Lets also remember axes are very good at destroying shields, so theres that. I agree if dante were diving straight down it would be laughably easy for moloc to kebab him, but in a brawl youre face to face, and Dante isnt stupid enough do dive headfirst at an opponent. Im also not saying he wont react, im saying he'd be slower than dante. Dante is no witch but fluff wise against an enemy in more cumbersome armor (be honest, termie armor no matter how well made would be more cumbersome than PA) he would be slightly faster. Enough to give him an edge.
Sasa0mg wrote: I think Moloc's armor is hinged quite well he's definitely a lot more menueverable judging by his model and art work then any other terminator armor I've seen I don't see why he wouldn't be able to move himself as he needed to be. And no I was meaning that the spear thrust would just ultimately be lower if need be but I think his armor allows for just as good bodily rotations and movements then regular space marine armor. As again some of the most formidable (highest WS characters) are featured in power armor so it can't be cumbersome to the point of causing any real degree of hindrance as far as bodily movements goes.
Also the point of power armor is to strengthen the bodies movements the fact the spear is a relic blade combined with the terminator armor and the fact that if your saying dante is descending upon him there would be enough accumulative force in place to see the thrust hit home with considerable enough force to kill.
And if your problem is with the him not being able to react in terminator armor either way I have to remind you that Dante isn't a dark eldar witch at this point, he's not simply going to ninja himself around fast enough to overwhelm him, nor is that jump pack silent enough to disguise what he's doing at any point either so he would know full well what was going on.
It wouldnt be more maneuverable than Power armor, although he would be more maneuverable than any TDA out there. Still wont be able to draw back. Also, as its a brawl youd know your opponent is there, im saying if he deflects an axe strike (and the shield holds up) he would be slower to push Dante off and make a good thrust than dante would be to get out of attack range. Lets also remember axes are very good at destroying shields, so theres that. I agree if dante were diving straight down it would be laughably easy for moloc to kebab him, but in a brawl youre face to face, and Dante isnt stupid enough do dive headfirst at an opponent. Im also not saying he wont react, im saying he'd be slower than dante. Dante is no witch but fluff wise against an enemy in more cumbersome armor (be honest, termie armor no matter how well made would be more cumbersome than PA) he would be slightly faster. Enough to give him an edge.
Im sorry I do not care what the fluff says or how strong he is, he is not doing any kind of dancing with that Volkswagon beetle on his back i see him being just as if not more cumbersome then termie armor and the fact that im pretty sure his visual left and right limits are greatly hindered with that rediculous ornate helmet I mean Im just saying.
Sasa0mg wrote: In regards to the spear upon making the block you push it forward and out, you open up your body slightly because you have there weapon on the shield as you open your body up with the twisted moment from the shield push you can use that to gain thrust for the spear. You wouldn't be holding your spear like that guy in the picture.
And imo calgar is more a fluff hero then that
Even so he wont have the shoulder rotation to draw back, he would rely solely on the rotational movement at the hips (does that even work when your armor is one solid piece? i mean they may not reproduce but nobody wants to squish the frank and beans) and their ability to get the shield out of the way in time (again, no shoulder rotation to bring it up or back, he would have to drop it and bring the spear tip up) it would actually be a rather clumsy maneuver to execute, and wouldnt exactly be the fastest thing. He would block and go to push, rotating at his hips since he cant use his shoulder (admit it, the shoulder pad is jammed into the armor when hes just holding the shield) and would then need to swing the spear around with him (holding on somewhere near the midsection if he wants an accurate, powerful strike after the swing) and slide the shield down Dante's body and thrust at the same time before dante can dance back a few feet. My question is, he has longer reach why did he let dante inside to begin with?
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bigboss1o1 wrote: REALLY you want to talk about range of motion look at that helmet it looks like he suffers from batman forever syndrome can he even turn his head and with that jump pack that is almost as big as him im sure he's super fast and not a giant freggin target seriously can he even stand up straight with that thing.
He cant look behind him no, but when the target is infront thats no biggie. you damage the JP hes not gonna suffer. Also, in PA marines can lift up armored cars im sure a jump pack doesnt weigh 2+tonnes. He could easily stand up. Plus when using an axe, the shoulder rotates vertically as opposed to a spear that needs horizontal rotation to be effective. As for going "full slow" do you know ANY sallies fluff? He'Stan takes the name of their primarch and can use any tools in the salamander arsenal to get his quest done. That includes any manpower that is nearby. He operates outside the chapter organization and advises Tu'Shan when the Master needs help. He is viewed as the savior of the chapter, the one who will lead them to their Primarch and glory. He is more awe-inspiring to them than their CM, and is part man, pary myth to the chapter.
Have you ever worn terminator armor? Im sure you havnt the soo dont argue range of motion when termies have access to weapons like thunder hammers lightning claws, mauls, axes, swords, and spears which require all manner of movements horizontal and vertical your argument is invalid, and just because the shoulder pads are fixed on the model does not mean its fixed as an actual suit of armor thrusting a spear does not require you to be able to do the YMCA just a decent horizontal range of motion, and dont tell me that JP isnt something to worry about thats a giant fuel tank on his back and with all this metal on metal action a spark and BOOOM lol
Have you worn it either? if not you cannot say the range of shoulder motion. If the Shoulder pad wasnt fixed onto the armor whats the point of it? take it off and its a weak spot in the armor. hammers, swords, axes, mauls and shields are not drawn back in the manner of a spear, also they are not available on terminators. Also, the JP would not explode Michael Bay style due to a spark. First youd need to penetrate the holding tank for the Promethium and let the gasses build to the ideal mixture for spontaneous combustion, then add the spark for the boom. That would take about 10-15 minutes (going off a car gas tank time). Also wouldnt kill him as the JP is ontop of the PA not connected internally. It would propel him foreword, but it wouldnt be the first time in 1100+ years he fought without the JP. Also, to hit the JP you would need to be behind him.
Lucarikx wrote: Bigboss, why did you make the poll if you are going to defend Moloc to the end? It feels really trollish.
Lucarikx
the polls only been up for like 2 days you gotta give it at least a week or soo before declaring a victor IMO so until that time i shall defend my champ lol.
Sasa0mg wrote: I think Moloc's armor is hinged quite well he's definitely a lot more menueverable judging by his model and art work then any other terminator armor I've seen I don't see why he wouldn't be able to move himself as he needed to be. And no I was meaning that the spear thrust would just ultimately be lower if need be but I think his armor allows for just as good bodily rotations and movements then regular space marine armor. As again some of the most formidable (highest WS characters) are featured in power armor so it can't be cumbersome to the point of causing any real degree of hindrance as far as bodily movements goes.
Also the point of power armor is to strengthen the bodies movements the fact the spear is a relic blade combined with the terminator armor and the fact that if your saying dante is descending upon him there would be enough accumulative force in place to see the thrust hit home with considerable enough force to kill.
And if your problem is with the him not being able to react in terminator armor either way I have to remind you that Dante isn't a dark eldar witch at this point, he's not simply going to ninja himself around fast enough to overwhelm him, nor is that jump pack silent enough to disguise what he's doing at any point either so he would know full well what was going on.
It wouldnt be more maneuverable than Power armor, although he would be more maneuverable than any TDA out there. Still wont be able to draw back. Also, as its a brawl youd know your opponent is there, im saying if he deflects an axe strike (and the shield holds up) he would be slower to push Dante off and make a good thrust than dante would be to get out of attack range. Lets also remember axes are very good at destroying shields, so theres that. I agree if dante were diving straight down it would be laughably easy for moloc to kebab him, but in a brawl youre face to face, and Dante isnt stupid enough do dive headfirst at an opponent. Im also not saying he wont react, im saying he'd be slower than dante. Dante is no witch but fluff wise against an enemy in more cumbersome armor (be honest, termie armor no matter how well made would be more cumbersome than PA) he would be slightly faster. Enough to give him an edge.
Im sorry I do not care what the fluff says or how strong he is, he is not doing any kind of dancing with that Volkswagon beetle on his back i see him being just as if not more cumbersome then termie armor and the fact that im pretty sure his visual left and right limits are greatly hindered with that rediculous ornate helmet I mean Im just saying.
First off it woulf be about the size of a minifridge not a car. Secondly its common for ALL marines not him specifically to lift in the multi tonne range in full PA. Third, the thing is behind his head not around it he has free left to right motion range of his neck, about 180 degree line of sight. If anything hinders his vision it would be the eye slits of the helmet. Fourthly, he does not have to draw back for his weapon, he draws up and down making the JP less of a hindrance than fighting with a spear.
Sasa0mg wrote: In regards to the spear upon making the block you push it forward and out, you open up your body slightly because you have there weapon on the shield as you open your body up with the twisted moment from the shield push you can use that to gain thrust for the spear. You wouldn't be holding your spear like that guy in the picture.
And imo calgar is more a fluff hero then that
Even so he wont have the shoulder rotation to draw back, he would rely solely on the rotational movement at the hips (does that even work when your armor is one solid piece? i mean they may not reproduce but nobody wants to squish the frank and beans) and their ability to get the shield out of the way in time (again, no shoulder rotation to bring it up or back, he would have to drop it and bring the spear tip up) it would actually be a rather clumsy maneuver to execute, and wouldnt exactly be the fastest thing. He would block and go to push, rotating at his hips since he cant use his shoulder (admit it, the shoulder pad is jammed into the armor when hes just holding the shield) and would then need to swing the spear around with him (holding on somewhere near the midsection if he wants an accurate, powerful strike after the swing) and slide the shield down Dante's body and thrust at the same time before dante can dance back a few feet. My question is, he has longer reach why did he let dante inside to begin with?
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bigboss1o1 wrote: REALLY you want to talk about range of motion look at that helmet it looks like he suffers from batman forever syndrome can he even turn his head and with that jump pack that is almost as big as him im sure he's super fast and not a giant freggin target seriously can he even stand up straight with that thing.
He cant look behind him no, but when the target is infront thats no biggie. you damage the JP hes not gonna suffer. Also, in PA marines can lift up armored cars im sure a jump pack doesnt weigh 2+tonnes. He could easily stand up. Plus when using an axe, the shoulder rotates vertically as opposed to a spear that needs horizontal rotation to be effective. As for going "full slow" do you know ANY sallies fluff? He'Stan takes the name of their primarch and can use any tools in the salamander arsenal to get his quest done. That includes any manpower that is nearby. He operates outside the chapter organization and advises Tu'Shan when the Master needs help. He is viewed as the savior of the chapter, the one who will lead them to their Primarch and glory. He is more awe-inspiring to them than their CM, and is part man, pary myth to the chapter.
Have you ever worn terminator armor? Im sure you havnt the soo dont argue range of motion when termies have access to weapons like thunder hammers lightning claws, mauls, axes, swords, and spears which require all manner of movements horizontal and vertical your argument is invalid, and just because the shoulder pads are fixed on the model does not mean its fixed as an actual suit of armor thrusting a spear does not require you to be able to do the YMCA just a decent horizontal range of motion, and dont tell me that JP isnt something to worry about thats a giant fuel tank on his back and with all this metal on metal action a spark and BOOOM lol
Have you worn it either? if not you cannot say the range of shoulder motion. If the Shoulder pad wasnt fixed onto the armor whats the point of it? take it off and its a weak spot in the armor. hammers, swords, axes, mauls and shields are not drawn back in the manner of a spear, also they are not available on terminators. Also, the JP would not explode Michael Bay style due to a spark. First youd need to penetrate the holding tank for the Promethium and let the gasses build to the ideal mixture for spontaneous combustion, then add the spark for the boom. That would take about 10-15 minutes (going off a car gas tank time). Also wouldnt kill him as the JP is ontop of the PA not connected internally. It would propel him foreword, but it wouldnt be the first time in 1100+ years he fought without the JP. Also, to hit the JP you would need to be behind him.
Of course Bill Nye I assume you have had several prometheum packs explode on your back obviously its no more then a tickle and dont say he would have to be behind him to hit that thing is almost as wide as he is tall.
Sasa0mg wrote: In regards to the spear upon making the block you push it forward and out, you open up your body slightly because you have there weapon on the shield as you open your body up with the twisted moment from the shield push you can use that to gain thrust for the spear. You wouldn't be holding your spear like that guy in the picture.
And imo calgar is more a fluff hero then that
Even so he wont have the shoulder rotation to draw back, he would rely solely on the rotational movement at the hips (does that even work when your armor is one solid piece? i mean they may not reproduce but nobody wants to squish the frank and beans) and their ability to get the shield out of the way in time (again, no shoulder rotation to bring it up or back, he would have to drop it and bring the spear tip up) it would actually be a rather clumsy maneuver to execute, and wouldnt exactly be the fastest thing. He would block and go to push, rotating at his hips since he cant use his shoulder (admit it, the shoulder pad is jammed into the armor when hes just holding the shield) and would then need to swing the spear around with him (holding on somewhere near the midsection if he wants an accurate, powerful strike after the swing) and slide the shield down Dante's body and thrust at the same time before dante can dance back a few feet. My question is, he has longer reach why did he let dante inside to begin with?
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bigboss1o1 wrote: REALLY you want to talk about range of motion look at that helmet it looks like he suffers from batman forever syndrome can he even turn his head and with that jump pack that is almost as big as him im sure he's super fast and not a giant freggin target seriously can he even stand up straight with that thing.
He cant look behind him no, but when the target is infront thats no biggie. you damage the JP hes not gonna suffer. Also, in PA marines can lift up armored cars im sure a jump pack doesnt weigh 2+tonnes. He could easily stand up. Plus when using an axe, the shoulder rotates vertically as opposed to a spear that needs horizontal rotation to be effective. As for going "full slow" do you know ANY sallies fluff? He'Stan takes the name of their primarch and can use any tools in the salamander arsenal to get his quest done. That includes any manpower that is nearby. He operates outside the chapter organization and advises Tu'Shan when the Master needs help. He is viewed as the savior of the chapter, the one who will lead them to their Primarch and glory. He is more awe-inspiring to them than their CM, and is part man, pary myth to the chapter.
Have you ever worn terminator armor? Im sure you havnt the soo dont argue range of motion when termies have access to weapons like thunder hammers lightning claws, mauls, axes, swords, and spears which require all manner of movements horizontal and vertical your argument is invalid, and just because the shoulder pads are fixed on the model does not mean its fixed as an actual suit of armor thrusting a spear does not require you to be able to do the YMCA just a decent horizontal range of motion, and dont tell me that JP isnt something to worry about thats a giant fuel tank on his back and with all this metal on metal action a spark and BOOOM lol
Have you worn it either? if not you cannot say the range of shoulder motion. If the Shoulder pad wasnt fixed onto the armor whats the point of it? take it off and its a weak spot in the armor. hammers, swords, axes, mauls and shields are not drawn back in the manner of a spear, also they are not available on terminators. Also, the JP would not explode Michael Bay style due to a spark. First youd need to penetrate the holding tank for the Promethium and let the gasses build to the ideal mixture for spontaneous combustion, then add the spark for the boom. That would take about 10-15 minutes (going off a car gas tank time). Also wouldnt kill him as the JP is ontop of the PA not connected internally. It would propel him foreword, but it wouldnt be the first time in 1100+ years he fought without the JP. Also, to hit the JP you would need to be behind him.
Of course Bill Nye I assume you have had several prometheum packs explode on your back obviously its no more then a tickle and dont say he would have to be behind him to hit that thing is almost as wide as he is tall.
Prometheum would be about the same as any explosive gas we have now. Liquid it will burn in a gaseous state it needs the right percentage to explode. As for it being wide, the fuel tank would be situated near the center not in each individual engine. Common sense dictates not t put your fuel next to source of combustion. As for the force it would be not nearly enough to breach power armor, much less artificered nipple armor Dante uses
bigboss1o1 wrote: Yeah that thing is on his back you can only get to it from behind him? OK
Now tell me do you honestly think the air intake manifold will explode with a spark?
I work with JP8 all the time and i know you can throw a match on that stuff and nothing but a spark for whatever reason WOOOOSH. But if a spark wont do it a high powered laser sure would.
bigboss1o1 wrote: Yeah that thing is on his back you can only get to it from behind him? OK
Now tell me do you honestly think the air intake manifold will explode with a spark?
I work with JP8 all the time and i know you can throw a match on that stuff and nothing but a spark for whatever reason WOOOOSH. But if a spark wont do it a high powered laser sure would.
In melee combat you have enough time to aim and fire off a laser accurately enough without getting chopped? at a moving target? thats inside your defense? also, where are you gonna get a match from in 40k? plus, the spark wouldnt stay lit long enough to go through into the combustion chamber (where the fuel would be)
Lucarikx wrote: You actually can't hit much of the Jump Pack from the front.....
Lucarikx
the intake manifold and sides of the thruster itself. Neither of which would go boom
Obviously we have members of the adeptas mechanicus look the fact still remains he swings big combersome two handed axe probably gets it wedged in shield even if he doesnt he gets pushed back and impaled and if he does for whatever unrealistic reason dance his way out of range of long ass spear he gets lasered to oblivion with nothing or no way short of jumping into the air still a target to avoid or deflect it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Im sorry all I keep hearing is this no Dante would win Dante would win but not a single person has given me a single realistic example how, short of OOOOO shoot him with melta gun like he's just going to stand there chest out and take it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wow Seth got a vote before Pedro poor Pedro
Lucarikx wrote: You actually can't hit much of the Jump Pack from the front.....
Lucarikx
the intake manifold and sides of the thruster itself. Neither of which would go boom
Obviously we have members of the adeptas mechanicus look the fact still remains he swings big combersome two handed axe probably gets it wedged in shield even if he doesnt he gets pushed back and impaled and if he does for whatever unrealistic reason dance his way out of range of long ass spear he gets lasered to oblivion with nothing or no way short of jumping into the air still a target to avoid or deflect it.
No we have people with eyes. Theyre great. Also, he uses a 1 handed axe. The other he has a wrist mounted meltagun to do double duty: chosing to strike with both hands or aiming at a second target. And if his axe gets stuck in the shield that would negate the shields powerfield, giving him only the protection of his TDA. Then he just jumps out of range with his meltagun. The "long ass spear" would be an unstable weapon at best to aim a laser. The 1-then-done shot will also have a chance to be reflected by the Iron Halo, or just miss alltogether (again try shooting a moving target. Now try holding your rifle 1-handed and shoot a moving target. not like 1-2 KPH like 10-15. a marine wont stand there and let you shoot him. He'll do his damndest to survive
Lucarikx wrote: You actually can't hit much of the Jump Pack from the front.....
Lucarikx
the intake manifold and sides of the thruster itself. Neither of which would go boom
Obviously we have members of the adeptas mechanicus look the fact still remains he swings big combersome two handed axe probably gets it wedged in shield even if he doesnt he gets pushed back and impaled and if he does for whatever unrealistic reason dance his way out of range of long ass spear he gets lasered to oblivion with nothing or no way short of jumping into the air still a target to avoid or deflect it.
No we have people with eyes. Theyre great. Also, he uses a 1 handed axe. The other he has a wrist mounted meltagun to do double duty: chosing to strike with both hands or aiming at a second target. And if his axe gets stuck in the shield that would negate the shields powerfield, giving him only the protection of his TDA. Then he just jumps out of range with his meltagun. The "long ass spear" would be an unstable weapon at best to aim a laser. The 1-then-done shot will also have a chance to be reflected by the Iron Halo, or just miss alltogether (again try shooting a moving target. Now try holding your rifle 1-handed and shoot a moving target. not like 1-2 KPH like 10-15. a marine wont stand there and let you shoot him. He'll do his damndest to survive
First off the thought process a person must have to think a fully funded chapter master would have a single shot laser in any other way then TT blows my mind and to think further that realisticly an iron halo would serve as any kindof real protection wow.
Lucarikx wrote: You actually can't hit much of the Jump Pack from the front.....
Lucarikx
the intake manifold and sides of the thruster itself. Neither of which would go boom
Obviously we have members of the adeptas mechanicus look the fact still remains he swings big combersome two handed axe probably gets it wedged in shield even if he doesnt he gets pushed back and impaled and if he does for whatever unrealistic reason dance his way out of range of long ass spear he gets lasered to oblivion with nothing or no way short of jumping into the air still a target to avoid or deflect it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Im sorry all I keep hearing is this no Dante would win Dante would win but not a single person has given me a single realistic example how, short of OOOOO shoot him with melta gun like he's just going to stand there chest out and take it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wow Seth got a vote before Pedro poor Pedro
You mean aside from mobility (1) speed (2) maneuverability (3) and the flexibility that comes with a JP (4) that constitutes his ability to outmanouver him, the fact that a spear is not designed for use in full armor (ever see a Knight use a spear)(5) the axe is likely to destroy the shield (6) the single shot from the end of a "long ass spear" would be hard to aim at a moving target and he would have to be entirely still to use it (7, 8, and 9) would constitute why the weapon sets are in Dante's favor, yes the final thing is he will melt him with a meltagun. Which is wrist mounted for ease of use, meaning he can move and fire it easily. Now do a set for why moloc has a chance
Lucarikx wrote: You actually can't hit much of the Jump Pack from the front.....
Lucarikx
the intake manifold and sides of the thruster itself. Neither of which would go boom
Obviously we have members of the adeptas mechanicus look the fact still remains he swings big combersome two handed axe probably gets it wedged in shield even if he doesnt he gets pushed back and impaled and if he does for whatever unrealistic reason dance his way out of range of long ass spear he gets lasered to oblivion with nothing or no way short of jumping into the air still a target to avoid or deflect it.
No we have people with eyes. Theyre great. Also, he uses a 1 handed axe. The other he has a wrist mounted meltagun to do double duty: chosing to strike with both hands or aiming at a second target. And if his axe gets stuck in the shield that would negate the shields powerfield, giving him only the protection of his TDA. Then he just jumps out of range with his meltagun. The "long ass spear" would be an unstable weapon at best to aim a laser. The 1-then-done shot will also have a chance to be reflected by the Iron Halo, or just miss alltogether (again try shooting a moving target. Now try holding your rifle 1-handed and shoot a moving target. not like 1-2 KPH like 10-15. a marine wont stand there and let you shoot him. He'll do his damndest to survive
First off the thought process a person must have to think a fully funded chapter master would have a single shot laser in any other way then TT blows my mind and to think further that realisticly an iron halo would serve as any kindof real protection wow.
You show me where he would reload the power cell for an DAOT weapon? how it would recharge itself? as for the Iron Halo it creates a force field around the wearer... how does that not protect someone? Better protection than a shield mounted on the left... vulnerable to strikes from the right side, behind him and essentially anywhere the shield is not.
Lucarikx wrote: Heres an example of how Dante would kill Moloc:
Curse Moloc.
Petrify Moloc with the Death Mask of Sanguinous.
Promptly fight and probably kill his enthralled opponent.
Lucarikx
yeah Petrify a fearless opponent yeah get right on that
I don't know, I'm pretty sure any Space Marine would falter under a pure psychic manifestation of the emotions of an angry, betrayed, and bloodthirsty Primarch.
bigboss1o1 wrote: Im sure when your mentally unstable that does less than nothing thats like trying to drive a mad man mad
Alright man obviously Dante is the Chuck Norris of space marines he defies logic and existence and is completely unstoppable in battles were his victory lacks common sense....he finds victory in fact I heard there was a Dante street but they had to close it down cus nobody crosses Dante.
bigboss1o1 wrote: Im sure when your mentally unstable that does less than nothing thats like trying to drive a mad man mad
Alright man obviously Dante is the Chuck Norris of space marines he defies logic and existence and is completely unstoppable in battles were his victory lacks common sense....he finds victory in fact I heard there was a Dante street but they had to close it down cus nobody crosses Dante.
No... we gave a list of reasons why Dante would win i fail to see how that makes in mythical and/or logic defying.
bigboss1o1 wrote: Im sure when your mentally unstable that does less than nothing thats like trying to drive a mad man mad
Alright man obviously Dante is the Chuck Norris of space marines he defies logic and existence and is completely unstoppable in battles were his victory lacks common sense....he finds victory in fact I heard there was a Dante street but they had to close it down cus nobody crosses Dante.
No... we gave a list of reasons why Dante would win i fail to see how that makes in mythical and/or logic defying.
yeah me and several others have given 100 times more logical explanations of Molocs victory but you fanboys continue too, soo feth it he's a unicorn.
bigboss1o1 wrote: Im sure when your mentally unstable that does less than nothing thats like trying to drive a mad man mad
Alright man obviously Dante is the Chuck Norris of space marines he defies logic and existence and is completely unstoppable in battles were his victory lacks common sense....he finds victory in fact I heard there was a Dante street but they had to close it down cus nobody crosses Dante.
No... we gave a list of reasons why Dante would win i fail to see how that makes in mythical and/or logic defying.
yeah me and several others have given 100 times more logical explanations of Molocs victory but you fanboys continue too, soo feth it he's a unicorn.
bigboss1o1 wrote: Im sure when your mentally unstable that does less than nothing thats like trying to drive a mad man mad
Alright man obviously Dante is the Chuck Norris of space marines he defies logic and existence and is completely unstoppable in battles were his victory lacks common sense....he finds victory in fact I heard there was a Dante street but they had to close it down cus nobody crosses Dante.
No... we gave a list of reasons why Dante would win i fail to see how that makes in mythical and/or logic defying.
yeah me and several others have given 100 times more logical explanations of Molocs victory but you fanboys continue too, soo feth it he's a unicorn.
Give us a list. I have yet to see it.
read the other 9 pages then there out there, Im not retyping that nor am I looking for sasa's posts
by the way Dante created the girraffe when he uppercutted a horse
bigboss1o1 wrote: Im sure when your mentally unstable that does less than nothing thats like trying to drive a mad man mad
Alright man obviously Dante is the Chuck Norris of space marines he defies logic and existence and is completely unstoppable in battles were his victory lacks common sense....he finds victory in fact I heard there was a Dante street but they had to close it down cus nobody crosses Dante.
No... we gave a list of reasons why Dante would win i fail to see how that makes in mythical and/or logic defying.
yeah me and several others have given 100 times more logical explanations of Molocs victory but you fanboys continue too, soo feth it he's a unicorn.
Give us a list. I have yet to see it.
read the other 9 pages then there out there, Im not retyping that nor am I looking for sasa's posts
by the way Dante created the girraffe when he uppercutted a horse
I fail to see any reason as to why i should reread it to defend your fanboyism. If you arent willing to make your own list to defend your pick what reason do i have?
Defend MY fanboyism Ok ill throw this at you again
1.ornate artificer terminator armor: first off there is nothing short of being unable to sweeping advance that says terminator armor hinders any kind of movement aside from being able to run terminator armor does not give you -1 WS soo in what way does it make you do any less then PA a WS 5 CM is WS 5, a CM in termie armor guess what is still WS 5 THUS logic suggest that it does not hinder movement in any way!
2. Big ass storm shield: it stops anything and everything short of nuclear death its size allows him to block oncoming attacks push away and or slam any unwanted advances towards him.
3. The black spear: ancient relic weapon rips through armor and allows him to keep his enemy at a distance where as dante needs to get close his chances of getting close without either being impaled or slammed with the shield are slim to none and the fact that that axe one handed or two handed is slow and combersome and spear is well NOT.
4: Its frekkin terminator armor that axe is not just gonna kill him in one swing its terminator armor especially his, is meant for that kind of abuse soo unless he kills him in one blow which he wont hes finished and thats not just because of his terminator armor its also cus of his...
5. cybernetics Please don't bypass the language filter like this. Reds8n
i would be surprised if he feels pain at all where as dante will feel every cut and bruise
6. The bane of space marines: its what he does its what hes good at hes a specialist when the imperium wants space marines dead they dont call Dante they call Moloc a cold calculating murdurous psycho.
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bigboss1o1 wrote: Defend MY fanboyism Ok ill throw this at you again
1.ornate artificer terminator armor: first off there is nothing short of being unable to sweeping advance that says terminator armor hinders any kind of movement aside from being able to run terminator armor does not give you -1 WS soo in what way does it make you do any less then PA a WS 5 CM is WS 5, a CM in termie armor guess what is still WS 5 THUS logic suggest that it does not hinder movement in any way!
2. Big ass storm shield: it stops anything and everything short of nuclear death its size allows him to block oncoming attacks push away and or slam any unwanted advances towards him.
3. The black spear: ancient relic weapon rips through armor and allows him to keep his enemy at a distance where as dante needs to get close his chances of getting close without either being impaled or slammed with the shield are slim to none and the fact that that axe one handed or two handed is slow and combersome and spear is well NOT.
4: Its frekkin terminator armor that axe is not just gonna kill him in one swing its terminator armor especially his, is meant for that kind of abuse soo unless he kills him in one blow which he wont hes finished and thats not just because of his terminator armor its also cus of his...
5. cybernetics: that dude has been soo F**'d up i would be surprised if he feels pain at all where as dante will feel every cut and bruise
6. The bane of space marines: its what he does its what hes good at hes a specialist when the imperium wants space marines dead they dont call Dante they call Moloc a cold calculating murdurous psycho.
sorry i forgot he's also fearless which means guess what HE FEARS NOTHING that mask he would look at and scoff oh and eternal warrior which fluffwise means wha???? really really hard to kill just saying!!!
Y'know, on the TT the Death Mask doesn't care if you have Fearless or not.
Also, weapon skill doesn't depend on maneuverability as much as does on the martial prowess of the character - meaning a nimble eldar civilian won't have a higher weapon skill than say a Dreadnought.
Unless you have it in front of you, a SS doesn't do a thing if you have a melta aimed at your face.
The Spear relies on jabbing actions to be dangerous. You can swing an Axe around and land hits something in swifter motions.
Pff... If you get hit repeatedly in soft mesh and get your leg amputated you won't be fighting much longer.
Do we have any fluff evidence of Moloc killing ANYONE important in single combat? He knows how to insult people, and thats really about it......
Lucarikx wrote: Y'know, on the TT the Death Mask doesn't care if you have Fearless or not.
Also, weapon skill doesn't depend on maneuverability as much as does on the martial prowess of the character - meaning a nimble eldar civilian won't have a higher weapon skill than say a Dreadnought.
Unless you have it in front of you, a SS doesn't do a thing if you have a melta aimed at your face.
The Spear relies on jabbing actions to be dangerous. You can swing an Axe around and land hits something in swifter motions.
Pff... If you get hit repeatedly in soft mesh and get your leg amputated you won't be fighting much longer.
Do we have any fluff evidence of Moloc killing ANYONE important in single combat? He knows how to insult people, and thats really about it......
Lucarikx
yes on the TT is guess what irrelevant and yet again you have given NO proof whatsoever that says terminator armor prevents you from thrusting a spear which i think is the most desperate defense you guys have with NOTHING to back it up, and no sorry your are wrong bub the WS is his effectiveness in close combat its not the prowess of anything and effectiveness relies on what your ability to use your weapon which goes hand in hand with what??? maneuverability wow! soo i repeat since you have no logical proof to substantiate any of your desperate claims to victory aside from well......nothing and im not going to sift through my badab books but no most people he fights run in fear even a necron lord.
Lucarikx wrote: Y'know, on the TT the Death Mask doesn't care if you have Fearless or not.
Also, weapon skill doesn't depend on maneuverability as much as does on the martial prowess of the character - meaning a nimble eldar civilian won't have a higher weapon skill than say a Dreadnought.
Unless you have it in front of you, a SS doesn't do a thing if you have a melta aimed at your face.
The Spear relies on jabbing actions to be dangerous. You can swing an Axe around and land hits something in swifter motions.
Pff... If you get hit repeatedly in soft mesh and get your leg amputated you won't be fighting much longer.
Do we have any fluff evidence of Moloc killing ANYONE important in single combat? He knows how to insult people, and thats really about it......
Lucarikx
and my 0.02$
1. Thats TT, fluffwise termie armor is more cumbersome and "trades mobility and maneuverability for increased protection"
2. Not big, covers about 1/2-2/3 of his front. Not his whole body.
3. Spears need thrusting. See terminator armor limited shoulder movement. Also, axes are slow on TT because itd be OP to have an I AP2 weapon. Theyre almost as fast as swords (and ive swung both).
4. The axe is a relic and has a monomolecular edge cloaked in a power field. Its purpose is to cut through armor.
5. So youre saying if we cut this wire his arm dies? or hack here and his leg powers down? cybernetics arent all upsides.
6. Any space marine can take out space marines. Just like any other foe. But, like any foe, they are not uniform. Just because he can take on ludsander does not mean he can punk Tu'Shan.
7. "And They Shall Know No Fear." Fluffwise all marines are fearless. They have never felt fear as a marine, and any memories of before then have been erased.
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namiel wrote: Why has no one set up a tournment bracket yet??????
Roll off, the winner gets to shoot then assault. Next round the other will shoot then assault. First to 3 wins will win the round.
theyre so closely matched that any slight advantage would tip the scale. Starting B2B dante will on average win. Plus this is fluff, not TT
So I am insanly bored here at work. I need a list of all chapter masters and I will load them into a bracket. All I need are names of characters who actually have rules so that I can roll off the fights.
Lucarikx wrote: Y'know, on the TT the Death Mask doesn't care if you have Fearless or not.
Also, weapon skill doesn't depend on maneuverability as much as does on the martial prowess of the character - meaning a nimble eldar civilian won't have a higher weapon skill than say a Dreadnought.
Unless you have it in front of you, a SS doesn't do a thing if you have a melta aimed at your face.
The Spear relies on jabbing actions to be dangerous. You can swing an Axe around and land hits something in swifter motions.
Pff... If you get hit repeatedly in soft mesh and get your leg amputated you won't be fighting much longer.
Do we have any fluff evidence of Moloc killing ANYONE important in single combat? He knows how to insult people, and thats really about it......
Lucarikx
and my 0.02$
1. Thats TT, fluffwise termie armor is more cumbersome and "trades mobility and maneuverability for increased protection"
2. Not big, covers about 1/2-2/3 of his front. Not his whole body.
3. Spears need thrusting. See terminator armor limited shoulder movement. Also, axes are slow on TT because itd be OP to have an I AP2 weapon. Theyre almost as fast as swords (and ive swung both).
4. The axe is a relic and has a monomolecular edge cloaked in a power field. Its purpose is to cut through armor.
5. So youre saying if we cut this wire his arm dies? or hack here and his leg powers down? cybernetics arent all upsides.
6. Any space marine can take out space marines. Just like any other foe. But, like any foe, they are not uniform. Just because he can take on ludsander does not mean he can punk Tu'Shan.
7. "And They Shall Know No Fear." Fluffwise all marines are fearless. They have never felt fear as a marine, and any memories of before then have been erased.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
namiel wrote: Why has no one set up a tournment bracket yet??????
Roll off, the winner gets to shoot then assault. Next round the other will shoot then assault. First to 3 wins will win the round.
theyre so closely matched that any slight advantage would tip the scale. Starting B2B dante will on average win. Plus this is fluff, not TT
If it is purely fluff the azrael will win as the watchers in the dark are the most powerful psychers in the galaxy and wont let anything happen to him. the helmet bearer will just paralyze anyone who may threaten him. WIN
Lucarikx wrote: Y'know, on the TT the Death Mask doesn't care if you have Fearless or not.
Also, weapon skill doesn't depend on maneuverability as much as does on the martial prowess of the character - meaning a nimble eldar civilian won't have a higher weapon skill than say a Dreadnought.
Unless you have it in front of you, a SS doesn't do a thing if you have a melta aimed at your face.
The Spear relies on jabbing actions to be dangerous. You can swing an Axe around and land hits something in swifter motions.
Pff... If you get hit repeatedly in soft mesh and get your leg amputated you won't be fighting much longer.
Do we have any fluff evidence of Moloc killing ANYONE important in single combat? He knows how to insult people, and thats really about it......
Lucarikx
yes on the TT is guess what irrelevant and yet again you have given NO proof whatsoever that says terminator armor prevents you from thrusting a spear which i think is the most desperate defense you guys have with NOTHING to back it up, and no sorry your are wrong bub the WS is his effectiveness in close combat its not the prowess of anything and effectiveness relies on what your ability to use your weapon which goes hand in hand with what??? maneuverability wow! soo i repeat since you have no logical proof to substantiate any of your desperate claims to victory aside from well......nothing and im not going to sift through my badab books but no most people he fights run in fear even a necron lord.
This is fluff not TT, and fluff states specifically that terminator armor inhibits movement more than standard power armor. that+common sense dictated the shoulder pad would keep him from drawing the spear back for a spartan style thrust. Until you find fluff that states the shoulders can move off the place theyre set than its obvious he would be unable to do a thrust. Even PA wouldnt allow a thrust unless you remove the shoulder pads
namiel wrote: So I am insanly bored here at work. I need a list of all chapter masters and I will load them into a bracket. All I need are names of characters who actually have rules so that I can roll off the fights.
look on the poll my friend those are about 90% of them have them duke it out in idunno alphabetical order?
Lucarikx wrote: Y'know, on the TT the Death Mask doesn't care if you have Fearless or not.
Also, weapon skill doesn't depend on maneuverability as much as does on the martial prowess of the character - meaning a nimble eldar civilian won't have a higher weapon skill than say a Dreadnought.
Unless you have it in front of you, a SS doesn't do a thing if you have a melta aimed at your face.
The Spear relies on jabbing actions to be dangerous. You can swing an Axe around and land hits something in swifter motions.
Pff... If you get hit repeatedly in soft mesh and get your leg amputated you won't be fighting much longer.
Do we have any fluff evidence of Moloc killing ANYONE important in single combat? He knows how to insult people, and thats really about it......
Lucarikx
yes on the TT is guess what irrelevant and yet again you have given NO proof whatsoever that says terminator armor prevents you from thrusting a spear which i think is the most desperate defense you guys have with NOTHING to back it up, and no sorry your are wrong bub the WS is his effectiveness in close combat its not the prowess of anything and effectiveness relies on what your ability to use your weapon which goes hand in hand with what??? maneuverability wow! soo i repeat since you have no logical proof to substantiate any of your desperate claims to victory aside from well......nothing and im not going to sift through my badab books but no most people he fights run in fear even a necron lord.
This is fluff not TT, and fluff states specifically that terminator armor inhibits movement more than standard power armor. that+common sense dictated the shoulder pad would keep him from drawing the spear back for a spartan style thrust. Until you find fluff that states the shoulders can move off the place theyre set than its obvious he would be unable to do a thrust. Even PA wouldnt allow a thrust unless you remove the shoulder pads
How about the fluff that straight up says he speared a necron lord in the back i mean I dont know what other wording you need beside that?
)
-slap Moloc for being the corrupt High Lords' lap dog and spending all of his time killing his brother marines instead of fighting the real threats. But then, I'm sure Moloc would take his spear and run the Emperor through, and take his place on the Golden Throne, completely eliminating the forces of Chaos with his unsurpassed (and previously unknown) psychic powers, because he's Mother F'n Moloc and he is Forge World's Special Snowflake!!!
