With all the talk about Superheavies in 40K and the crazy high price of titans how would you feel about allowing your opponent to sub in a DreamForge Leviathan for a Warhound?
The Leviathan is only about 1 inch shorter and the head is much smaller.
ForgeWord Titan body $416
ForgeWord Arms $62 each
$540
DreamForge Leviathan Mortis Body $92
DreamForge Arms $30 each
$152
Not sure about rest of you but I will (probably) Never be able to afford a real Titan but could easily afford the Leviathan.
Would you allow this in the Table?
Considering I bought a Leviathan Crusader for that purpose, yes, I would allow it. Much of the Warhound's size comes from the bulk of its upper body. And, in that particular picture, it looks even bigger with the legs spread out like that.
Yes, the Leviathan is smaller than the FW version, but it's about the same size as the original Armorcast Warhound. On the tabletop, the Leviathan is quite large enough to play the part.
I wouldn't allow it as a warhound, there is a huge and marked difference in size between the two, much more than a simple set of measurements would imply.
chaos0xomega wrote: I wouldn't allow it as a warhound, there is a huge and marked difference in size between the two, much more than a simple set of measurements would imply.
Would just not allow it in a 40k game if they are added or in APOC also?
Wouldn't allow it at all. It's too small to be a Warhound, the guns don't match, and unless it has some serious conversion work done it doesn't look like a Warhound (or a good model at all). Really the only argument in favor of allowing the Leviathan to be used in 40k is that it's cheap, and throwing a bunch of cheap proxies on the table to get the overpowered titan rules as easily as possible is TFG behavior.
I actually hate the look of that model. It looks like a model knight (literally, like, Templar knight from the late medieval) for children (hence the action-figure-esque changes) that is overscaled for 40k.
I much prefer the look of the leviathan to the 40k titans.
The differences are magnified by: - The perspective of the shot on the side of the warhound - The pose of the warhound compared to the leviathan - The warhound being painted to the grey leviathan.
Mount the leviathan on a little rubble, something very easy to do due to the highly posable nature of the kit, and give it a dynamic pose and it will easily match a warhound in all bit ridiculous top heavy girth and price. As mentioned above it has weapon options that easily match the warhounds possible loadouts.
This is a much better comparison imo. Side on, painted to painted, both posed. Yes the leviathan is a little smaller, but not enough to impact gameplay.
Yonan wrote: As mentioned above it has weapon options that easily match the warhounds possible loadouts.
Really? Because I have no idea what Warhound weapons those guns are supposed to match. The vulkan cannon is kind of vaguely like a mega bolter (the gun nobody ever uses) I guess, but the HEL cannon doesn't look like anything a Warhound can take, and the melee options are all obviously not something a Warhound can have. In your comparison picture the only way I'd have any idea that those were supposed to be Warhound weapons is if you told me it was a Warhound proxy.
This is a much better comparison imo. Side on, painted to painted, both posed.
And it still reveals the huge difference. The Leviathan is almost as tall, but has none of the massive bulk of the Warhound. They're two very different models, and the main reason anyone thinks the Leviathan is a good substitute for a Warhound is because it's cheap.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
VorpalBunny74 wrote: On a related note, how about the Dreamforge Mortis instead of a Lord of Skulls?
No. That model doesn't look even remotely like its 40k "equivalent". You'd have to do significant conversion work to even consider making that substitution.
And it still reveals the huge difference. The Leviathan is almost as tall, but has none of the massive bulk of the Warhound. They're two very different models, and the main reason anyone thinks the Leviathan is a good substitute for a Warhound is because it's cheap.
It would also look rather badass in a GK army due to its design. It's like a bigger Dreadknight without the whole exposing the pilot thing. Even the 'head' kinda matches GKPA helmets.
1. It looks better (debateable ofc) 2. It's a great plastic kit making it infinitely more poseable, very important for a large segment of hobbyists. 3. It's *much* cheaper, to the tune of getting 4-5 leviathans for one warhound.
The lack of the massive bulk is a big selling point for it to me, the warhound just looks ridiculous (more so than most 40k). The difference in girth is no different to many other acceptable "counts as" that I've seen, and won't have any impact on gameplay.
Here are some more weapon options. Like with any other counts as, they don't need to look exactly like the original weapons, they need to be clearly distinguishable, which these certainly are. Double barreled turbo laser destructor, vulcan mega bolter, inferno gun and plasma blastgun are all easily mappable to the H.E.L gun, nova gun, vulkan cannon, and beowulf or grendel.
VorpalBunny74 wrote: On a related note, how about the Dreamforge Mortis instead of a Lord of Skulls?
No. That model doesn't look even remotely like its 40k "equivalent". You'd have to do significant conversion work to even consider making that substitution.
The reason to use the Mortis is because it looks *nothing* like that abomination.
Yonan wrote: 3. It's *much* cheaper, to the tune of getting 4-5 leviathans for one warhound.
And this is why I hate the model. Everyone keeps praising how cheap it is, as if Apocalypse is nothing more than a race to get the most D-weapons on the table, no matter how ugly the proxies look. I'd rather see one Warhound on a table than 4-5 Leviathans that were bought simply because they were cheap.
Double barreled turbo laser destructor, vulcan mega bolter, inferno gun and plasma blastgun are all easily mappable to the H.E.L gun, nova gun, vulkan cannon, and beowulf or grendel.
No they aren't.
The HEL gun is not a double-barrel gun like the turbolaser, and it doesn't have even close to the same shape. And obviously it doesn't have the coil bits that identify a plasma weapon, or the flamer bits that identify a flame weapon.
The beowulf and grendel cannons don't look like anything a Warhound can take. The Warhound doesn't have any guns with a large single barrel like an artillery cannon.
The nova cannon looks like a melta weapon that only exists on the Reaver.
And of course the Warhound doesn't have access to any melee weapons.
End result: none of the guns are even close to matching, and using them as a proxy is about as reasonable as grabbing a cheap robot toy from walmart and declaring that its guns are turbolasers.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yonan wrote: The reason to use the Mortis is because it looks *nothing* like that abomination.
I agree that the model looks stupid, but that doesn't mean you can throw any random toy on the table and call it one. I would still expect to see at least the same general shape of a human-like upper body mounted on a large track section.
Peregrine wrote: No. That model doesn't look even remotely like its 40k "equivalent". You'd have to do significant conversion work to even consider making that substitution.
I was more after size comparisons there, chief. I should have made that clear
Yonan wrote: 3. It's *much* cheaper, to the tune of getting 4-5 leviathans for one warhound.
And this is why I hate the model. Everyone keeps praising how cheap it is, as if Apocalypse is nothing more than a race to get the most D-weapons on the table, no matter how ugly the proxies look. I'd rather see one Warhound on a table than 4-5 Leviathans that were bought simply because they were cheap.
That's a pretty poor argument imo. Something making the hobby more affordable for the "peasants" is not a bad thing. You keep saying "cheap" implying you think they're lower quality. They're far from it, to me they look and feel superior to the resin titans which come off as "cheap" in comparison, despite costing much more.
I agree that the model looks stupid, but that doesn't mean you can throw any random toy on the table and call it one. I would still expect to see at least the same general shape of a human-like upper body mounted on a large track section.
The large track section is a substantial part of the problem. A walker is much more "khorney" if you'll excuse the pun. Even completely unmodified, this looks better than the blasphemy that is the khorne thing. The rule of cool has to take precedence in this situation imo, so long as the gameplay is largely unaffected.
Yonan wrote: That's a pretty poor argument imo. Something making the hobby more affordable for the "peasants" is not a bad thing. You keep saying "cheap" implying you think they're lower quality. They're far from it, to me they look and feel superior to the resin titans which come off as "cheap" in comparison, despite costing much more.
It's not that I hate cheap models, it's that I hate the fact that the motivation for a lot of Apocalypse players seems to be "get the cheapest possible titan-shaped object and get more D-weapons" rather than "get the most awesome model I can find". So you get stuff like cardboard titans, cheap toys from walmart with a few 40k bits glued on, barely-painted models with half the pieces missing, etc. And the Leviathan is just more of that attitude: there was much more talk about how cheap it is and how it will be a great titan proxy than how cool the model is for its own sake, or whether it's an appropriate equivalent to a 40k titan.
A walker is much more "khorney" if you'll excuse the pun. Even completely unmodified, this looks better than the blasphemy that is the khorne thing.
I agree that it's a better model, but it's a different model. The shape is completely different, the body gun is missing, and it has dual melee weapons instead of axe + gun. If I saw it on the table I'd have no clue what it was supposed to be unless you explained that it's a proxy for the khorne abomination. It makes about as much sense as using a LRBT for a Rhino.
The rule of cool has to take precedence in this situation imo, so long as the gameplay is largely unaffected.
Except gameplay IS affected. Besides the massive TLOS issues models proxy just need to look like the standard model so that you can easily tell what it is. Apocalypse has enough to keep track of as it is, adding in proxies that don't look anything like the standard model only adds to that confusion.
I'm not sure how many large models you get in Apocalypse games, but it's never been an issue for me keeping track of what's what. Even in normal games conversions and counts-as to use third party bits are fine, when the scale you're talking about is "ok this is a converted Kharn, this guys pistol is a third party plasma gun" which is fine. "This giant model is a Khorne abomination" is much easier to keep track of, so I don't think that argument holds much weight. So long as it has a visibly apparent loadout, the scythe arm easily matches the axe, the Nova cannon easily matches the gun. You'd need to modify it so the torso gun was apparent though.
TLOS for large models is so rarely a problem, in this case you're trading less girth for more height which is if anything a penalty to the player using the leviathan.
The lower cost of a model is of course a selling point. If people didn't like the model it wouldn't be an issue, there are many options that are cheaper still that you don't see people using. This model has working plastic pistons and screws, lack of quality is definitely not an issue so imo it's disingenuous to compare it to cardboard DIY titans. The manufacturer being able to make it for so cheap, and selling it to us for so cheap when it rivals much more expensive models in quality is a definite plus.
I think the Leviathan is a great looking model, and the actual build for the kit is pretty incredible; but it's kind of iffy as a Warhound proxy. The size really is off by quite a bit.
It would be utterly perfect for some kind of homebrew rules for Grey Knights, of course. There is no way to get vehicle design rules in 6th, right?
I had no idea players could be this picky about proxying extra large units, especially with such expensive models. In apoc reports I see people literally using cardboard constructs without any issue apparently, I'd personally have no problem at all with a Leviathan being put on the table. In fact I'd even marvel at seeing it.
I don't see it as "get the cheapest possible titan-shaped object and get more D-weapons" its still about $150 for a model that will get used once or twice a year. I see it more as making that was never affordable before now in reach. Do you think its fine that GW makes really cool rules to to sell a $500 model and we should not use a reasonable priced model in its place?
PrehistoricUFO wrote: I had no idea players could be this picky about proxying extra large units, especially with such expensive models. In apoc reports I see people literally using cardboard constructs without any issue apparently, I'd personally have no problem at all with a Leviathan being put on the table. In fact I'd even marvel at seeing it.
Is the cardboard proxy the right size and shape of what it is standing in for? A lot of the beef has nothing to do with the quality of the Leviathan, it's that it simply does not approximate a Warhound.
In a friendly game I'd obviously let me friends use it, but I am not really into winning.
Yeah I suppose they are roughly the same dimensions, but then again it's difficult to tell as the camera tends to pan by fairly quickly and I've never actually seen Titans in real life to judge very well compared to the other stuff around the home-made models.
Yeah, I'm in the same boat. I own both a Leviathan and a Warhound and haven't yet assembled either; so only have what I see here to go by. But the Warhound looks a lot bigger bulkwise.
PrehistoricUFO wrote: I had no idea players could be this picky about proxying extra large units, especially with such expensive models. In apoc reports I see people literally using cardboard constructs without any issue apparently, I'd personally have no problem at all with a Leviathan being put on the table. In fact I'd even marvel at seeing it.
Is the cardboard proxy the right size and shape of what it is standing in for? A lot of the beef has nothing to do with the quality of the Leviathan, it's that it simply does not approximate a Warhound.
In a friendly game I'd obviously let me friends use it, but I am not really into winning.
It is a little shorter and substantially less top heavy, but have you ever seen an instance where this would be a problem with models the size that we're talking about? Titans tower over terrain. All the instances I've seen, the largest terrain has been on the outside of the boards to give a more reasonable playing area, and any sufficiently large terrain has been enough to block both.
So if we don't have the money to buy Forgeworld's over priced and horribly modeled apoc units, we're not supposed to play? I bought a Leviathan for my grey knight army because I refuse to pay $600 for something that I have to spend weeks fixing because the resin mold work sucks. It took 2 1/2 weeks to fix the pieces of my thunderhawk that I saved my @$$ off to buy. I got it and wanted to cry. I had zero choice but to completely seal it up which is not what I wanted. I wanted a full blown masterpiece sitting on my shelf at the head of my Raven Guard army and had to half @$$ it because nothing and I mean nothing lined up. If they did it on the thunderhawk, it's safe to assume it'll be like that on a titan. I'm not going thru that again. For the prices they're asking for their stuff, it should be perfect.
Of course I'll ask my opponent if they'll accept the Leviathan as a suitable warhound proxy as long as the weapons are remotely close. And if they don't, then I'll find another opponent that will. The game is suppose to be fun but seems more and more as the months go on that they're catering to people with deep pockets. This is sapping the fun out of it fast. The Leviathan and Mortis are great alternatives for people on a budget that want to have an apoc model in their army. I truly like the Warhound titan more than the Dreamforge titans. In the completed pics, in my opinion, it's a better looking unit. And if the Warhound was $100-$150, it might be worth the insane headache that comes with repairing their massive mistakes.
I guess when the 4.5" Leviathan version comes out, it'll be a big deal all over again when people start trying to proxy out the dreadknight with it. Pro Leviathan people get ready for that one too. I personally think they'll be a much better dreadknight as it actually looks like a knight instead of a walker with a termie baby in a pouch.
PrehistoricUFO wrote: I had no idea players could be this picky about proxying extra large units, especially with such expensive models. In apoc reports I see people literally using cardboard constructs without any issue apparently, I'd personally have no problem at all with a Leviathan being put on the table. In fact I'd even marvel at seeing it.
Is the cardboard proxy the right size and shape of what it is standing in for? A lot of the beef has nothing to do with the quality of the Leviathan, it's that it simply does not approximate a Warhound.
In a friendly game I'd obviously let me friends use it, but I am not really into winning.
It is a little shorter and substantially less top heavy, but have you ever seen an instance where this would be a problem with models the size that we're talking about? Titans tower over terrain.
That's pretty much what I mean when I mentioned size. However, in Apoc games, I imagine scenery is specifically designed to be large enough to cover Titans?
Call me elitist if you want, but I wouldnt allow it. Just the same as I wouldnt allow $40 WW2 Tank models from Kmart to be used as Baneblades or shoe boxes or anything else. There is a proper model for the Warhound, buy it or dont play it. Thats what is great about APOC, you can play all the models you own. If you dont happen to own a broken superheavy, well okay bring what you DO have......I get it, the are expensive, they are not for everyone or everyones budget.....use formations and play what you have. It def comes off as "I want to run 4x D Weapon shots a turn, BUUUUUUUUUT I dont want to drop the $$$$ for the actual model"
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yonan wrote: This is a good conversion option for the Khorne abomination. The torso from the Khorne thing and the kegs from a 15mm leviathan.
I actually did a walking conversion on that guy using those legs, However I extended his mid section and got rid of the "Penis Cannon" it just didnt look right
RavenGuard55 wrote: So if we don't have the money to buy Forgeworld's over priced and horribly modeled apoc units, we're not supposed to play? I bought a Leviathan for my grey knight army because I refuse to pay $600 for something that I have to spend weeks fixing because the resin mold work sucks. It took 2 1/2 weeks to fix the pieces of my thunderhawk that I saved my @$$ off to buy. I got it and wanted to cry. I had zero choice but to completely seal it up which is not what I wanted. I wanted a full blown masterpiece sitting on my shelf at the head of my Raven Guard army and had to half @$$ it because nothing and I mean nothing lined up. If they did it on the thunderhawk, it's safe to assume it'll be like that on a titan. I'm not going thru that again. For the prices they're asking for their stuff, it should be perfect.
Look, this is.... I know what you mean, but this is the game. I'm going to put aside the poor craftsmanship and quality control of Forge World, which is inexcusable - but also not really salient to the main point. The main point is your first sentence: "because I can't afford x, does that mean I can't play with x"? And that's not really even a forgeworld issue. That's a basic 40K issue. Should I be able to use a Rhino as a Baneblade because I cannot afford a Baneblade? No, I don't think I should. And again, I hasten to add, my point of objection is not at all related to the economics; it's about the fact they simply don't scale up well next to each other.
I know analogy is always somewhat suspect, but I think that's a good one. Would you allow a Rhino proxy as a Baneblade? It's fundamentally not a different argument.
It's not fair that I cannot afford the millions of dollars you need to get into yachting; but that's what the game is.
I love those Lord of Skulls as a walker conversions; but I think they have the same issues as this does. It significantly changes the way the model works by elevating the weapons, yes? It's normally sort of squat, and now it can shoot over terrain? For me it's not about the economics at all - I'd accept cardboard scratchbuilds if you made some effort - it's about how functionally equivalent it is to the original as far as dimensions go.
Those smaller Leviathans are going to make the best Dreadknights ever, though.
But that's not really the same. It's not a shoe box or a cheap a$$ WW2 model. It's still a very nice model that cost $150! It not like I stole one of my kids toy robots and slapped it on the table. Granted its not ass cool but I really don't see it effecting the game play at all.
Honestly, if you saw this on the table you have no idea what it was? It's a huge walking robot! It's not a dread and way to small for a reaver so that really only leaves a warhound.
sickening wrote: Granted its not ass cool but I really don't see it effecting the game play at all.
Take a look at that image in the first post. Look how much larger the profile of the Warhound is from overhead as compared to the Leviathan; how much easier it would be to hit with a blast weapon even on a scatter because of it's size. It appears from the image to have a footprint nearly twice as large as the Leviathan - whereas the Leviathan has all the same firepower and is a smaller target. That really seems like an unfair advantage to me.
Also, I don't think the Warhound can have a melee weapon, right? So that's an issue as well.
Peregrine wrote: Wouldn't allow it at all. It's too small to be a Warhound, the guns don't match, and unless it has some serious conversion work done it doesn't look like a Warhound (or a good model at all). Really the only argument in favor of allowing the Leviathan to be used in 40k is that it's cheap, and throwing a bunch of cheap proxies on the table to get the overpowered titan rules as easily as possible is TFG behavior.
Seriously? You're suggesting bringing a Titan is for only those who can afford it?
Play it as whatever you want. Make a Warhound out of paper, it's even cheaper.
sickening wrote: Granted its not ass cool but I really don't see it effecting the game play at all.
Take a look at that image in the first post. Look how much larger the profile of the Warhound is from overhead as compared to the Leviathan; how much easier it would be to hit with a blast weapon even on a scatter because of it's size. It appears from the image to have a footprint nearly twice as large as the Leviathan - whereas the Leviathan has all the same firepower and is a smaller target. That really seems like an unfair advantage to me.
Also, I don't think the Warhound can have a melee weapon, right? So that's an issue as well.
It does have interchangeable arms.
It your worried about his foot print just put him on a bigger base.
Peregrine wrote: Wouldn't allow it at all. It's too small to be a Warhound, the guns don't match, and unless it has some serious conversion work done it doesn't look like a Warhound(or a good model at all). Really the only argument in favor of allowing the Leviathan to be used in 40k is that it's cheap, and throwing a bunch of cheap proxies on the table to get the overpowered titan rules as easily as possible is TFG behavior.
You're, right, it looks better then the silly and really unrealistic Two chicken legs that the Warhound is...
I think its close enough in size, and I would it for one reason.
The leviathan looks cool.
In fact, it would be awesome to paint it up like a giant gray knight.
Now, if I ran a weapon other than the giant Gatling gun, I would try to scratch build some weapons for it that might look at bit closer to the fw ones.
It's not that I hate cheap models, it's that I hate the fact that the motivation for a lot of Apocalypse players seems to be "get the cheapest possible titan-shaped object and get more D-weapons" rather than "get the most awesome model I can find". So you get stuff like cardboard titans, cheap toys from walmart with a few 40k bits glued on, barely-painted models with half the pieces missing, etc. And the Leviathan is just more of that attitude: there was much more talk about how cheap it is and how it will be a great titan proxy than how cool the model is for its own sake, or whether it's an appropriate equivalent to a 40k titan.
What you just described is the reason I won't play apoc any more for the most part. It's because Apoc turns into the d-weapon arms race. I love the warhound modle form FW, but I've learned now if i ever did many to justify spending that much on a model I would never touch the turbo lasers as this point.
BUT. Well I agree with almost everything you are saying, I do think you might be projecting your own bad experiences with the d-weapon arms race onto the players who would consider using the Dream forge kit. I don't think it's unreasonable for some players to like the idea. I also think your being to hard on the dream forge kits aesthetics.
The best bet for the OP is to get the opinion of people you are actually going to play, rather than be swayed by a bunch of guys on Dakka, which in all reality, is a community which is about 50% composed of gaming snobs.
I count myself lucky that I grew up on 2nd and 3rd edition modelling awesomeness, not off the shelf Khornemowers.
All this talk about the size and all, but what of the guys who have and play Armorcast Warhounds?...
They are even shorther then the Leviathan...
So a guy who comes at the table with this venerable(although silly looking) model, by you guys standard, couldn't play it because its not the same exact size of the FW Warhound, although it is a Warhound?...
There is a 2 cm difference between the leviathan and Warhound, its the most silly argument i've heard for a long time.
All this "model for advantage" crap is good when you play a competitf game like in tournaments, but APOC is not meant to be competitive, ist meant to play with models you like.
of course there wxill be guys who will abuse it and show up with shoeboxes, awkwardly painted in the same shceme as the rest of the army, i've seen it, but the next time those kind of guys ask if they can join the game, we say "Okay, but your shoeboxes stays home", and thats it.
Here the Leviathan is much more intricate and complexe and better looking that a kitbashed cardboard shoebox for christs sake!
You don't like when people shows up with Transformer toys painted black?, ok, but please don't compare this to the leviathan kit, wich is a Dream kit for hobbyists, it has so many pieces and complexity that it makes look FW kits like Puzzles for Children!.
Why does the volume of a Leviathan matter against the greater bulk of a Warhound? Because of TLOS garbage?
Seriously? Since when has Apocolypse been anything other than static gunlines where terrain is largely irrelevant? Half the time the movement phase is irrelevant except for infantry.
I do have to admit, that I would suggest that anyone using the dreamforge model try to do the following;
* see if you can make him a tad bit taller, bigger base, etc.
* try to mount him on a fairly large base, for blasts.
* see if you can make the weapons look at bit closer to the actual ones.
Model it well, give it a good paint job - make it look like you put a lot of effort in it - as opposed to a cardboard "I want D weapons" proxy that still looks like a milk carton.
This will help in dealing with honest concerns about modeling for advantage, or in helping identify the weapons.
This should satisfy any reasonable person, or at least any person you might want to play with.
Frankly I find the normal sized Dreamforge model to be oddly-sized. I would much rather buy several 15mm scaled ones and use them as perfectly scaled Knights that fit the imagery of Knights extremely well.
RavenGuard55 wrote: So if we don't have the money to buy Forgeworld's over priced and horribly modeled apoc units, we're not supposed to play? I bought a Leviathan for my grey knight army because I refuse to pay $600 for something that I have to spend weeks fixing because the resin mold work sucks. It took 2 1/2 weeks to fix the pieces of my thunderhawk that I saved my @$$ off to buy. I got it and wanted to cry. I had zero choice but to completely seal it up which is not what I wanted. I wanted a full blown masterpiece sitting on my shelf at the head of my Raven Guard army and had to half @$$ it because nothing and I mean nothing lined up. If they did it on the thunderhawk, it's safe to assume it'll be like that on a titan. I'm not going thru that again. For the prices they're asking for their stuff, it should be perfect.
Look, this is.... I know what you mean, but this is the game. I'm going to put aside the poor craftsmanship and quality control of Forge World, which is inexcusable - but also not really salient to the main point. The main point is your first sentence: "because I can't afford x, does that mean I can't play with x"? And that's not really even a forgeworld issue. That's a basic 40K issue. Should I be able to use a Rhino as a Baneblade because I cannot afford a Baneblade? No, I don't think I should. And again, I hasten to add, my point of objection is not at all related to the economics; it's about the fact they simply don't scale up well next to each other.
I know analogy is always somewhat suspect, but I think that's a good one. Would you allow a Rhino proxy as a Baneblade? It's fundamentally not a different argument.
It's not fair that I cannot afford the millions of dollars you need to get into yachting; but that's what the game is.
I love those Lord of Skulls as a walker conversions; but I think they have the same issues as this does. It significantly changes the way the model works by elevating the weapons, yes? It's normally sort of squat, and now it can shoot over terrain? For me it's not about the economics at all - I'd accept cardboard scratchbuilds if you made some effort - it's about how functionally equivalent it is to the original as far as dimensions go.
Those smaller Leviathans are going to make the best Dreadknights ever, though.
jesus, my spelling
So would you be ok with playing against an army that used real world military models proxied in for forgeworld/gw models? Say for instance someone wants to make a full german looking dkok army and for their vehicles they use german military vehicles and kit bash in some gw/forgeworld parts to make them look a little more proper? If the size is close to what it should be would that scenario be ok? If so, it seems as though its the same thing. Taking some non-gw/fw product and making it work for a fraction of the cost.
Since the Leviathan has smaller footprint then would you accept it with a wider and taller base to make it easier to pie plate and taller for shooting purposes? A decent scenic base would work to remedy some of the issues of size i would think. Or if you have a friendly group of players, would it be more accepted to work up your own datasheet and downgrade the stats for the warhound to something suited to the Leviathan? Example...not as many structure points, no option for d weapons, lower points cost, etc. The warhound couldn't have been the smallest titan in the 40k universe. If it is then I'll accept that but for friendly games, I guess us Leviathan owners/users will just have to keep looking for opponents that will allow it.
The warhound couldn't have been the smallest titan in the 40k universe
Warhounds are the smallest Titan. Smaller than that are "Knights", which don't carry void shields or other Titan-esque equipment. They have small reactors, so usually nothing as weaponry like Turbolasers. And Dreamforge models actually fit the modern 40K imagery better than the old 6mm Epic models.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: Seriously? You're suggesting bringing a Titan is for only those who can afford it?
Or those who want to invest the effort to make a proper scratchbuild that looks as good as the real thing. If you really want a titan because it's an awesome model then save up your money and buy one. If you really want a titan because the rules are powerful then you don't deserve to use one.
Play it as whatever you want. Make a Warhound out of paper, it's even cheaper.
Or you could just accept that your Apocalypse army won't have a titan. It's not the end of the world if you don't have more D-weapons.
Slayer le boucher wrote: All this talk about the size and all, but what of the guys who have and play Armorcast Warhounds?...
I hate the old Armorcast models. They're just plain ugly and an embarrassment to the 40k name. But, unlike the Leviathan, they were sold as official Warhound models produced under license from GW so there's a better argument for allowing them to continue to be legal. The Leviathan doesn't have this history, and its only claim to being allowed in 40k is that it's cheap.
There is a 2 cm difference between the leviathan and Warhound, its the most silly argument i've heard for a long time.
Again, it's not just the height, it's the bulk of the model. The Warhound is just a much bigger model with a lot more presence on the table compared to the Leviathan.
All this "model for advantage" crap is good when you play a competitf game like in tournaments, but APOC is not meant to be competitive, ist meant to play with models you like.
Yes, play with the models you like, as long as they're actual 40k models. That doesn't mean you have to allow every random toy someone wants to call a titan so they can get more D-weapons on the table.
You don't like when people shows up with Transformer toys painted black?, ok, but please don't compare this to the leviathan kit, wich is a Dream kit for hobbyists, it has so many pieces and complexity that it makes look FW kits like Puzzles for Children!.
So? If it's a dream kit then have fun building and painting one. I don't see why that means it needs to have 40k rules.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
RavenGuard55 wrote: So would you be ok with playing against an army that used real world military models proxied in for forgeworld/gw models? Say for instance someone wants to make a full german looking dkok army and for their vehicles they use german military vehicles and kit bash in some gw/forgeworld parts to make them look a little more proper? If the size is close to what it should be would that scenario be ok? If so, it seems as though its the same thing. Taking some non-gw/fw product and making it work for a fraction of the cost.
The answer to that depends on their reason for doing it.
If they've made their army with real-world kits because it fits the theme and invested as much time and effort as it would take to build a "real" DKoK army (including making everything WYSIWYG and roughly the same size/shape and adding appropriate 40k elements so it isn't just real-world stuff) then sure, it should be allowed.
If they've made their army with real-world kits because it's cheaper and their main concern is maximizing their firepower per dollar then no, it shouldn't be allowed.
The problem with the Leviathan is that it isn't WYSIWYG and the most popular reason for getting one is that it's a cheap titan-shaped object that gets more D-weapons on the table without paying $500 for a real Warhound, so that puts it solidly in the second category.
RavenGuard55 wrote: So would you be ok with playing against an army that used real world military models proxied in for forgeworld/gw models? Say for instance someone wants to make a full german looking dkok army and for their vehicles they use german military vehicles and kit bash in some gw/forgeworld parts to make them look a little more proper? If the size is close to what it should be would that scenario be ok?
Yes, in my book - emphasis in your quote mine.
RavenGuard55 wrote: Since the Leviathan has smaller footprint then would you accept it with a wider and taller base to make it easier to pie plate and taller for shooting purposes?
I played epic in the day,guess what folks the epic knights are smaller than the war hound.The knights are a one man walker configured as the Dreamforge walkers.The Warhound has a crew of three.Yeah this is just not close to a Warhound but with only some armor added at the mid section it would be a perfect Knight.Tweak the rules for the Eldar wraithknight ad imperial weapons stats and it could work .
You can do whatever you like with your opponent's agreement. Every single argument made here against the use of a Leviathan is proxy is made irrelevant in the event that an opponent is found with a relaxed enough attitude to accept it.
Personally, I would allow proxies, and would use them myself, so long as it bore at least some reasonable resemblence to whatever it was supposed to represent, and my opponent didn't try to exploit my unfamliarity with that model to their own advantage (i.e. lying and being inconsistent throughout the game about the weapons the unit is equipped with).
Rules issues regarding size and base size are easily solved. Just use a larger, correct size base, and use the base to boost the height of the model. Or just agree that for LOS purposes it will always be visible.
This example would IMO be ok and I'd have no problems with it.
And with a regular opponent (i.e. a friend), I'd even let them proxy a model that looked absolutely nothing like what its supposed to be if for instance they just wanted to try out a unit before buying a model (Barbies? Transformers?)
If I wanted to use a proxy model, and my opponent said no, I would either use an alternate list that doesn't include that model/unit or I'd just look for a different opponent. I'm eventually going to use a 100% proxy army for LOTR, using Gripping Beast Anglo Saxons as Rohirrim, because (a) its more cost effective (b) I like the models far more (c) they're better quality IMO.
Its YOUR game, do whatever is fun for you and your opponent and don't let strangers off the internet dictate what you should and should not do with your own miniature collection and games.
I would say that not being able to afford a poorly made $400 model isn't very fun at all.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: I would say that not being able to afford a poorly made $400 model isn't very fun at all.
So don't use a Warhound then. I really don't see why people seem to think that their army needs titans (with D-weapons usually) no matter how awful their proxy model will be. Just build and paint the awesome models that fit within your budget and take pride in your army.
Big stompy robots are fun. Leviathans are big stompy robots that look better than titans, are cheaper than titans, and can suitably replace them in 40k. No need to do without.
Yonan wrote: Big stompy robots are fun. Leviathans are big stompy robots that look better than titans, are cheaper than titans, and can suitably replace them in 40k. No need to do without.
Only if you're fine with using a proxy that is not the same size as the real model, doesn't look very much like the real model, and doesn't have weapons that are even close to WYSIWYG. At that point why not just buy some cheap robot toys from walmart and call them titans?
I like the one with the skull head, and the sythe personally.
I think the player with the model should make some Knight stats for a 40K version, I believe the Epic scale Knight was a vallid model, so just make up some 40k stat's for this thing. Because technically yes, there is a significant size difference that could help out the player with the proxy mode vs the actual Warhound Titan model. If the rules for the "Knight" were reasonable then I'd say go for it, but not as a proxy Warhound Titan. I actually think it's a great looking model, for a Warhammer 40K Knight it would be perfect!
Yes, the price is huge, save up...
Someone in our player group brought one to our halloween apocalypse. It was gorgeously painted and he lit it up with some LEDs. He played it as a warhound and nobody even questioned that.
That being said ... im okay with someone not wanting to play against such a proxy. Unfortunately that means not playing in our clubs apoc games at all for this person. Who cares what some snobby people somewhere on the other side of this planet think about it if your friends are okay with it?
For the people whining about d-weapons and unfairly characterizing anyone who wants this model as someone who simply wants more d-weapons, they're the only ones here who seem like they actually care about winning, what with wanting to limit the firepower of their opponents and complaining about not being able to hit them with TLOS as easily. Not to mention that some of those people have written off the game anyways so they're being snobs just for the sake of being snobs.
If you spent the time and money to assemble and paint one of these Leviathans and you want to use it in a game against me, go right ahead man. I'm not going to deny you and all the hard work you because of some insecurity about treating a game of 40k (Apocalypse, no less!) as some competitive cowadoodee testosterone-fest where losing is unacceptable. You want to use a huge cool-looking walker in a game, and that's alright be me. I'll probably ask you which forge world recovered the pattern for your Leviathan Titan, too!
Wow. All I can add is that I'm very glad that in my nearly 20 years of playing 40k, I have never met people with attitudes even remotely similar to those exhibited by some posters in this thread. I own a leviathan and have never played a game of Apoc, nor plan to; it's a beautiful model that was incredibly fun to build. I've purchased one forgeworld model, a Tau barracuda that was torture to assemble with a great deal of time spent straightening various pieces. I will never go through that experience again; I don't care how many people say we have ti purchase official forgeworld or spend countless hours building some paper monstrosity to fit their ideal. It's not their game. It's my game and the game of all the, thankfully, reasonable people in my community who wouldn't bat an eye at a leviathan on the table.
You would think people playing an imaginary game that involves toy soldiers would be able to imagine that leviathan weaponry is a 40k equivalent...or just practice a little courtesy and ask if they become confused. How often do people play Apoc with every heavy that FW makes that they instantly know what each weapon is? I for one would have to stop my opponent and ask about "official" models. If you're concerned about the height, imagine the model stands a bit taller. Not a large enough footprint? Give an extra couple of inches from the base. You're already imaginging that the little plastic soldiers' guns are making "pew pew" sounds and are bleeding multihued blood...
Hey guys just felt like throwing in my two cents, I play death Korps of krieg and own a reaver titan and I have two styles of game play, when I'm at my store and when I'm at my house. At my Store, I'm usually playing against someone's tourney or league army and it's super competitive, I usually like to use my imperial armour rule set but I'm always ready to play standard ig if my opponent doesn't allow it. At my store, when a large apoc game is held proxies and cardboard titans are not allowed and I like that. Seeing all the really expensive models in one place really has a nice effect on the game.
On the other hand at home, my small group of friends and I never play on a competitive level. We play campaigns and pick up games and large scenario games roughly guided by the apoc book, ( we think the apoc book is pretty dumb ). I always use my death Korps if krieg ruleset and when we play Apoc or are "large scenario games" I let them use proxies cheaper models to represent stompas and warhound titans, Becuase 3 reasons, 1 I love seeing the conversion work my friends do and the ideas they come up with( I built my little cousins two stompas myself...) 2 some of my friends can't afford something that big, and I allow the proxy or scratch built models so the game can be a little more balanced plus they want to try out using the big models to 3 the most important reason WE ARE JUST TRYING TO HAVA FUN.
So in conclusion
When your playing at a store with people you don't normally play against, you must be open to not using a model or a set of rules, wether it's a scratch built titan you built at home or a completely forge world death Korps of krieg army you spent a ton of money on, it goes both ways. But when your playing with friends, do Watever you want, hell play with plastic green army men if you want as long as everyone is having fun.
But I have to agree on some points said earlier...
In a competitive environment, the levithian is nothing like the warhound titan when it comes to size, the body is no where near as bulky so it provides a disadvantage to it's opponent when it comes to LOS behind very large buildings and when using blast, ordanance, and barrage weapons.
Also the huge rush to put as many d weapons on the table is stupid, and over powered, the reason my friends and I don't use the apoc book is because it makes things stupid and over powered, buy one or two so you can have enoungh to keep up if you have enough money to buy 4 levithians you have enough to buy a real warhound.... A good rule might be for every levithian past the 1st one you must also have a warhound, Idk just throwing something out there.
So there is my lengthy 2 cents, thanks for reading
Tony A
The anti-Leviathan people are talking about fielding 5 for the actually dollar cost of 1 warhound just to spam d-weapons. I don't recall any of the pro Leviathan people asking to field 5 of em. I just want to field one Titan just to have a Titan on the field. That's all I would want. I completely agree that someone spamming 5 Leviathans for the d-weapons is bs. If they're doing it in that aspect I completely agree that it's wrong. I guess a lot of it is agree to disagree and get the permission of your opponent prior to bringing and/or fielding it. But if someone has a hand me down army from another player, is it truly fair to expect them to run an apoc formation of say termies to offset a Titan with d-weapons? I don't agree with that train of thought. Seems like some players that have dumped a ton of money in their armies are worried about being trumped by an army that costs 1/10th of what they paid.
I don't know anyone that has a warhound and haven't seen one assembled but can anyone say if they can be modeled as low as possible like some tau players model riptides kneeling and hunched over to create smaller targets?
As agnosto said, it's a game using toy soldiers. Apoc isn't a tournament setting so why not let some things slide a little. It's not as bad as someone bringing painted coke cans to sub in as drop pods. But I've let that go before in a friendly game. They're roughly the same size and my friend wanted to try out some new tactics so I said I didn't care at all. I told him not to bring that to the flgs as he'd probably get laughed out of the building. It's game for fun. If someone wants to buy gundam models and proxy those in for wraithknights...so be it if they're close to the height and the weapons are close. I know nothing about wraithknights so I'll be asking all game what it's equipped with anyway. I'll agree that models like that should never be allowed in competitive environments but like someone else said, apoc isn't meant to be competitive. It's meant for you be able to use the majority of your models. During apoc is someone drops in gundams, coke cans, transformers, walmart bots, whatever...I'm good with that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
judgedoug wrote: Hey if you want to use a Knight in your game of 40k you better use the official model
There's no way I'll let anyone proxy the Leviathan
If I see anyone using a Leviathan I'll throw it on the ground
Wow! That doesn't look like a sad piece of crap at all! And I'm sure if someone took a pic of a Leviathan next to this heap I'm sure there's no way it would be nearly the same size. Unless judgedoug is being sarcastic! Which I really hope is the case!
AegisGrimm wrote: Frankly I find the normal sized Dreamforge model to be oddly-sized. I would much rather buy several 15mm scaled ones and use them as perfectly scaled Knights that fit the imagery of Knights extremely well.
I can't wait for the HH books to cover knight-titan rules. Like you said the 15mm leviathans fit that bill perfectly. That and you might actully be able to use a knight more then once or twice a year in a game.
=P
I might let it swing for a simple game against me once, but if we're doing this for the simple sake of cost/aesthetics....you open up a pandora's box of people bringing all kinds of odd toys to a game to make them whatever they want that has powerful rules.
In a game where multiple players are going to show up and play Apoc...and I'm running the game....no way in hell. It doesn't have the dimensions for a world of true LoS and its 'base diameter' is much smaller for in-game effects and hiding behind terrain.
agnosto wrote: Wow. All I can add is that I'm very glad that in my nearly 20 years of playing 40k, I have never met people with attitudes even remotely similar to those exhibited by some posters in this thread. I own a leviathan and have never played a game of Apoc, nor plan to; it's a beautiful model that was incredibly fun to build. I've purchased one forgeworld model, a Tau barracuda that was torture to assemble with a great deal of time spent straightening various pieces. I will never go through that experience again; I don't care how many people say we have ti purchase official forgeworld or spend countless hours building some paper monstrosity to fit their ideal. It's not their game. It's my game and the game of all the, thankfully, reasonable people in my community who wouldn't bat an eye at a leviathan on the table.
You would think people playing an imaginary game that involves toy soldiers would be able to imagine that leviathan weaponry is a 40k equivalent...or just practice a little courtesy and ask if they become confused. How often do people play Apoc with every heavy that FW makes that they instantly know what each weapon is? I for one would have to stop my opponent and ask about "official" models. If you're concerned about the height, imagine the model stands a bit taller. Not a large enough footprint? Give an extra couple of inches from the base. You're already imaginging that the little plastic soldiers' guns are making "pew pew" sounds and are bleeding multihued blood...
Agreed!
And yes, Raven, judgedoug was being sarcastic . The above pic is gold.
Peregrine wrote: Wouldn't allow it at all. It's too small to be a Warhound, the guns don't match, and unless it has some serious conversion work done it doesn't look like a Warhound (or a good model at all). Really the only argument in favor of allowing the Leviathan to be used in 40k is that it's cheap, and throwing a bunch of cheap proxies on the table to get the overpowered titan rules as easily as possible is TFG behavior.
What a crock. That model looks better than the FW one, and it's clearly designed better as well, if you care to take a look at the website. Does the FW one come with fully pose-able limbs, and removable weapons? Or how about a respectable price tag. To be honest I thought Titans would be bigger but now that I see the size difference, and I have to wonder where the extra hundred dollars is...
This is a perfect example of blind fanboy faith. TFG my arse...
I like anything that brings variety to the usual boring standard models i see every week. A lot of people get to the stage where GW models are kinda dull and expensive or one or the other. In my opinion, buy 5 for the price of one. Its intellegent. Its called being smart with money. But i dont think any one has that intention anyway.
Id welcome it, money saving = awesome, and the model isnt that bad either.
Its actually repulsive to see some of the opinions (Peregrine *cough) of people here. Thats why i have spent about 20 minutes of my life at a GW store. Apparently the army i spent $$$$$ on and hours upon hours on isnt good enough because they arent cadian and so on.
In short be creative, smart with money and put in the same effort you would on a "standard" titan and no normal person in the world would refuse a game with it.
and it's clearly designed better as well, if you care to take a look at the website.
Also according to you.
Does the FW one come with fully pose-able limbs,
Yes it does.
and removable weapons?
Yes it does. You even buy them separately too.
I have to wonder where the extra hundred dollars is...
Partly in the level of detail and casting/resin. Though I imagine a significant part is due to being a GW product, but that's inherent to anything GW makes.
*Edit* It should also be pointed out that the Warhound is an older sculpt compared to the Leviathan.
Anyway, it's a fascinating reflection on the HHHobby when a plastic robot kit for, what, $120 or so is "cheap", isn't it?
Yeah, you're right.
Also sad but true with the pricing.
Ah well, I like the look of the Warhound better than the Leviathan, and I would prefer my opponent had a Warhound (or a competent scratchbuild), but I'd still play against the Leviathan.
*Edit* Well, the Warhounds cockpit detailing should for something, right? Right? Okay so its overpriced, but I still like it a lot.
I have to wonder where the extra hundred dollars is...
Partly in the level of detail and casting/resin. Though I imagine a significant part is due to being a GW product, but that's inherent to anything GW makes.
*Edit* It should also be pointed out that the Warhound is an older sculpt compared to the Leviathan.
Wow..., that the biggest joke i've heard for a while now, i think i'm set for the rest of the year.
I know 3 diffrent guys who have bought respectively 2 Warhouns and a Ceastus..., guess what?, all three of them had pieces so badly cast, that they made look Puppet Wars cast from some month ago look like perfect...
One of the Titan was so damaged that the guy could only put together, ONE OF THE LEGS and the hip, the reste was just horrible, it looked like a freakin Nurgle Warhound, nice if you got the model for 50quid and planned on using it has a Nurgle dedicated Titan, not when you play Salamanders and paid 400$ for it...
People saying that, the only trait of the Dreamforge kit, is because its cheap, and compare it to something that someone whould bring and made of a Transformer toy from Walmart, should just hang himself.
it is CHEAPER, not Cheap, and thats nothing bad, you guys use this argument has if it was bad and evil that people want to keep their money for more important things, like i dunno, everyday life?...
I have a good work where i earn enough money to be in comfort even if i don't work for 4 months, but damn i would certainly not give 400$ for ONE SINGLE MODEL.
The Leviathan is Plastic, is gorgous, it as Articulated limbs that you can leave it without glue and it works contrary to the Warhound where once you've put the pose, who essentially is limited to give a really wide stance so that the freakin thing doesn't get offbalance and fall off at the tiniest edge, its a true piece of art and the SAV service from Dreamforge is top notch.
You must have missed the part I also mentioned it was an older sculpt, which consequently leads to higher rates of miscasting.
The truth of the matter is that a properly cast FW product has a very high level of detail. I'm sure many people with warhounds would also attest to that.
But once more; its an old sculpt. Miscasts happen. FW is known to very good about replacing parts that are particularly rough.
Also, three cases does not equal some universal truth.
I've also admitted its overpriced for what it is. Calm down. I get that you like the Leviathan model, and nowhere have I said it wasn't a great model.
I'm pretty laid back when it comes to proxies, but as my group reserved Apoc games for special occasions (final battle for a campaign, going away 40k bash, etc), having the right model just makes it more special. Doubly so if it's painted.
I personally don't like the DF Leviathon model as a Warhound, but I'd probably let it fly. I'd prefer we come up with rules for a Knight Titan or whatever they were called, or a "Super Dreadknight" for a Grey Knight army, but that's just me.
Nothing like a little elitism to sour the mood hey? Some guy builds a cardboard Titan and that's just fine, but someone else goes out and buys a model to use as proxy and suddenly the world is ending? What happened to the imagination and fun? /tg/'s with neckbeards, that's what! Oh and interent slang, that's making us all stupiderz...
You can "fix" GW all you bloody well want, it' threads like this with comments like "if you don't have the money, you don't deserve to play it" that prove what is really broken.
darkcloak wrote: Nothing like a little elitism to sour the mood hey? Some guy builds a cardboard Titan and that's just fine, but someone else goes out and buys a model to use as proxy and suddenly the world is ending? What happened to the imagination and fun? /tg/'s with neckbeards, that's what! Oh and interent slang, that's making us all stupiderz...
You can "fix" GW all you bloody well want, it' threads like this with comments like "if you don't have the money, you don't deserve to play it" that prove what is really broken.
Nothing like hyperbole to sour the mood hey?
Anyways, sounds like you're a little too upset about one or two people's opinions on a matter that has zero relevance to how you would go about the issue in reality.
darkcloak wrote: Nothing like a little elitism to sour the mood hey? Some guy builds a cardboard Titan and that's just fine, but someone else goes out and buys a model to use as proxy and suddenly the world is ending?
No one claimed "the world was ending".
There is a good rationale behind being OK with a cardboard titan (which closely matches the dimensions of the original), and not being OK with a proxy (which is very cool, but a poor match size-wise). You can pretend it doesn't exist if you need to invent that narrative for whatever internal reason you have; but that doesn't make it no longer a valid reason.
darkcloak wrote: You can "fix" GW all you bloody well want, it' threads like this with comments like "if you don't have the money, you don't deserve to play it" that prove what is really broken.
Yeah I'm not on board with that line of thought. It is a game that's supposed to be fun, not a class system you use to punish people for the crime of not having hundreds of dollars to spend on a poorly-cast resin toy. I'd always be OK with a scratchbuilt proxy if an effort was made to make it look good; which is a function of time and effort rather than funds.
I would allow it, I think its a really awesome looking model
Heck if I played Apoc more regularly, I would buy one, but would add a bit more to make it look like some sort of Chaos dark mechanicum hell knight or something...
I think what people forget is imagination in Apoc. There are some crazy conversions people have made for 40k but could never use in regular 40k but I remember with Apoc (or at least in the old rules) you could make crazy conversions and play them out, heck they even made a blank PDF sheet where you could type its rules on, just so long as your opponent agrees with its rules then you could use it and fire things with it A good example of this was the minesweeper flying Ork thing that made it into the SM video game, that was made from a coke bottle IIRC and they still used that in games..
So yeah, I would deffo allow it, its not like im playing it in a tourney after all, and apoc is just on of those games where you really do just have to stick back, take a deep breath and laugh as crazy stuff unfolds, and if you cant see that then tbh and I do realize that this may sound harsh but maybe you are playing apoc wrong?
For the people whining about d-weapons and unfairly characterizing anyone who wants this model as someone who simply wants more d-weapons, they're the only ones here who seem like they actually care about winning, what with wanting to limit the firepower of their opponents and complaining about not being able to hit them with TLOS as easily. Not to mention that some of those people have written off the game anyways so they're being snobs just for the sake of being snobs.
If you spent the time and money to assemble and paint one of these Leviathans and you want to use it in a game against me, go right ahead man. I'm not going to deny you and all the hard work you because of some insecurity about treating a game of 40k (Apocalypse, no less!) as some competitive cowadoodee testosterone-fest where losing is unacceptable. You want to use a huge cool-looking walker in a game, and that's alright be me. I'll probably ask you which forge world recovered the pattern for your Leviathan Titan, too!
I couldn't agree anymore with this statement. Very well said.
Warhounds are one of my favourite models they are just a real 40k classic looking beast. I love 'em. The leviathan is a mean looking robot but its just that, it's not as wide and not as cool so I would say in principle no. But having never played against a Titan either I would let it go just to have a crack at some Titan killing!!
I own both a Warhound and a Reaver and I want to buy the Leviathan and Mortus because they are cool models and I would make bases that help represent the size of a Warhound to proxie them as Warhounds with appropriate weapons. and for those complaining about getting them just for the "D" weapon status My "official" FW titans don't have "D" class ranged weapons only the Titan power fist is a "D" weapon.
But the real reason I want them is for when a real rule set for the game comes out and I can play Nosegoblins game.
I have the 5th edition apoc book and saw what happygolucky stated as well about the blank datasheets to inspire creativity. Is this no longer allowed in the 6th edition book or what? I haven't picked it up yet.
RavenGuard55 wrote: I have the 5th edition apoc book and saw what happygolucky stated as well about the blank datasheets to inspire creativity. Is this no longer allowed in the 6th edition book or what? I haven't picked it up yet.
I don't have the current rulebook so I would not know, but from what I've heard is that they got rid of a lot of datasheets that don't have models because of the CH lawsuit..
Sad times for sad apoc gamers
But I would still allow custom stuff, as they are really fun anyway
thanks to this thread i have now ordered me a 15mm leviathan ... and will be saving up for the larger brother as well .. for the explicit purpose of being used as a titan ... so it can be destroyed .. and looted by my orks!
Does anyone know how the Leviathan would compare in scale to Ork Deff Dread's and Stompas? I bet you could make some awesome conversions.
If I may make a suggestion...carve a hole in the head of the Leviathan, and stick an Ork pilot inside with lots of loose wires.. It'll look like it took a direct hit to the face, and the Ork's turned its head into an open-air cockpit.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I actually hate the look of that model. It looks like a model knight (literally, like, Templar knight from the late medieval) for children (hence the action-figure-esque changes) that is overscaled for 40k.
so what. and what do grey knights look like? awesome space knights for adults?
500 bucks for a mechwarrior ripoff paperweight. no thanks.
considering the price difference, i would go with the leviathan hands down.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Does anyone know how the Leviathan would compare in scale to Ork Deff Dread's and Stompas? I bet you could make some awesome conversions.
If I may make a suggestion...carve a hole in the head of the Leviathan, and stick an Ork pilot inside with lots of loose wires.. It'll look like it took a direct hit to the face, and the Ork's turned its head into an open-air cockpit.
the 15mm scaled one is about the size of a mega dread ... so a bit taller then a deff dread which is only slightly larger then a dreadnought ...
the one i ordered will be used for my ork army ... or at least that is my plan .. my space wolves may battle them over it ... but the head section is seperate .. so could be magnetized and made to where it can be taken out .. and then an ork cockpit slid in its place ... with maybe a few sections of the armor magnetized as well to swap them out ... or just pick up two since they are so cheap ...
I would allow it. But I hope that if it was going to be used as a permanent proxy then a bit of effort would be put into making it as wide and tall as a normal Warhound. Also I do think the weapons look a bit off, but that is just my opinion.
I also think the Warhound is a better looking model. The giant robot that looks like a man is overdone, in my opinion. It appears to me that the War Hound design deviates from the norm, which is much more appealing to me. But I am now thinking about buying two Leviathan models and looting them for my Orks. Hmmm...cut them in half and make a 4 legged stompa/titan. Sounds like fun.
darkcloak wrote: Nothing like a little elitism to sour the mood hey? Some guy builds a cardboard Titan and that's just fine, but someone else goes out and buys a model to use as proxy and suddenly the world is ending? What happened to the imagination and fun? /tg/'s with neckbeards, that's what! Oh and interent slang, that's making us all stupiderz...
No, actually I hate the cardboard titans as well and don't think they should be allowed.
As for imagination, guess what, that's the reason I hate these proxy models. Apocalypse is supposed to be about the spectacle of an epic battle in the 40k universe, not a line of cardboard proxies fighting a line of random toys with a few unpainted 40k models scattered between them. It completely kills the imagination factor when that kind of stuff is on the table, and makes Apocalypse all about the dice "game". And at that point why bother playing Apocalypse?
You can "fix" GW all you bloody well want, it' threads like this with comments like "if you don't have the money, you don't deserve to play it" that prove what is really broken.
Why do you have to have a titan to play? If you only have $200 to spend then buy something smaller. The world isn't going to end if you don't bring a list full of cheap D-weapons.
No, actually I hate the cardboard titans as well and don't think they should be allowed.
So Titans, and anything else that happens to be horrifically expensive, are completely off limits to everyone who cannot realistically afford it? Young kids, people on very tight budgets, people with other competing interests?... Who the hell do you think you are, that you think you can dictate to other people what they should and should not do?
As for imagination, guess what, that's the reason I hate these proxy models.
You hate imagination, and diversity? Because that is what scratch built models and alternative proxies represent.
Apocalypse is supposed to be about the spectacle of an epic battle in the 40k universe,
And it still will be an epic spectacle, with non Official models proxied or houseruled, painted well in a unified theme with the rest of the army. e.g. Leviathan's as Grey Knight Titans. How can you look at a paintstakingly scratch built and painted Emperor Class Titan (or w.e. the very biggest ones are called) that towers a metre above the table, and say that its not epic?
not a line of cardboard proxies
Some scratchbuilt Titan proxies are bloody amazing, especially the MASSIVE 2 metre variety used to represent the biggest of Imperial Titans (for which no official models exist). Are you arguing that people shouldn't have the right to use those massive Titans, simply because GW doesn't make them?
And for that matter, are you against the use of scratch built terrain? Considering the huge range of official GW terrain kits (which are really models in their own right) now available, if your argument is followed to its logical conclusion then everyone must always use only the official terrain in games of 40K and not scratch built terrain or terrain from other manufacturers.
fighting a line of random toys with a few unpainted 40k models scattered between them. It completely kills the imagination factor when that kind of stuff is on the table, and makes Apocalypse all about the dice "game"
.
Then its a good thing we're not talking about and advocating that, isn't it? We're talking about using a cool looking non GW model to represent an also cool but cost prohibitive and extremely difficult to build official GW model.
Yes, due to scale discrepancies it might be appropriate to invent new rules for it instead of proxying, but then again isn't it easier and more likely to be permitted by an opponent to simply proxy a model using existing rules and profiles; than to write your own rules, balance those rules and try to convince your opponent to accept your home made unit?
And at that point why bother playing Apocalypse?
You're projecting your own opinions here and presenting them as objective fact applicable to everybody. Other people do enjoy playing with massive unpainted armies, lined up in long gun lines, rolling buckets of dice and removing swathes of units at once.
I actually agree with you on this, I wouldn't find that much fun either. But the difference is, I don't sneer at other people who do find it fun, and arrogantly proclaim my version of the game and hobby to be objectively better than theirs.
Why do you have to have a titan to play? If you only have $200 to spend then buy something smaller. The world isn't going to end if you don't bring a list full of cheap D-weapons.
Because you want to? Because its fun to use Titans, whether you can afford the official cost prohibitive model or not?
Who the hell are you to dictate that other people don't have the right to use whatever they like in their games? All they need, is the permission and agreement of the opponents they actually play with. Not some arrogant TFG off the internet (who they'll never meet) with an Elitist attitude to everyone and everything else that doesn't fit his own narrow view of the game and hobby.
If you don't like it, fine. Thats your opinion and you're entitled to it. If you every meet an opponent who wants to use such a proxy, you have the right to decline a game with him. But thats all. You've thrown accusations of TFG at other people earlier in this thread, but your comment here is IMO a textbook case
In a friendly game of absolutely anything, whether Warhammer, Chess or Football, you can do whatever the hell you like with your opponents agreement and cooperation. If everyone playing the game (i.e. not including TFG's off the internet) agrees that it'll be fun to make up and use wacky houserules or use unconventional gaming pieces, then what the hell is the problem?
If you were so inclined, you could have an army of Action Men fighting an army of Barbies....
...
Or an army of Lizardmen fighting an army of Cookies.
Oh and to the person who stated they would throw the fig on the floor if you were in my store you would never be allowed back to any function event or casual gaming night that is not cool
Unit1126PLL wrote: I actually hate the look of that model. It looks like a model knight (literally, like, Templar knight from the late medieval) for children (hence the action-figure-esque changes) that is overscaled for 40k.
so what. and what do grey knights look like? awesome space knights for adults?
500 bucks for a mechwarrior ripoff paperweight. no thanks.
considering the price difference, i would go with the leviathan hands down.
Grey Knights looks silly too, IMO. I never liked them.
You think the Warhound is a Mechwarrior ripoff paperweight? You must hate Leman Russ tanks, because they're WWI ripoff paperweights. You must also hate Stormravens, because they're brick ripoff paperweights.
Considering the price difference? I fear statements like that. Considering the price difference, I'd rather use a shoebox than a Baneblade.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: So Titans, and anything else that happens to be horrifically expensive, are completely off limits to everyone who cannot realistically afford it?
Well, unless you want to scratchbuild one as nice as the real thing. But who cares if it's off-limits? If you don't have the awesome titan model then what exactly are you missing? The cheap D-weapons?
Some scratchbuilt Titan proxies are bloody amazing, especially the MASSIVE 2 metre variety used to represent the biggest of Imperial Titans (for which no official models exist). Are you arguing that people shouldn't have the right to use those massive Titans, simply because GW doesn't make them?
Yes, some scratchbuilt titans are. I have no problem with the rare few scratchbuilds that reach the level of the real thing and are built as a challenging modeling project. However, let's be realistic here. The vast majority of "scratchbuilds" are garbage thrown together the night before the game to get more of the biggest guns on the table. At best you might have the occasional model with a few hours of effort, but the reason for making a scratchbuilt titan is still the same: it's cheaper and it takes less effort, so who cares about the quality of the finished product.
In short: it's about quality, not officialness.
Then its a good thing we're not talking about and advocating that, isn't it? We're talking about using a cool looking non GW model to represent an also cool but cost prohibitive and extremely difficult to build official GW model.
No, we're talking about a model that looks nothing like a Warhound being used as a Warhound just because it's a cheap titan-shaped object. It's not much better than just putting a bunch of cheap toy robots from walmart on the table and pretending they're titans.
Yes, due to scale discrepancies it might be appropriate to invent new rules for it instead of proxying, but then again isn't it easier and more likely to be permitted by an opponent to simply proxy a model using existing rules and profiles; than to write your own rules, balance those rules and try to convince your opponent to accept your home made unit?
Or you could just accept that not every model can be used in 40k. You wouldn't show up and insist that your Warmachine models/Star Wars toys/whatever need to get special rules so you can use them in 40k, so why should this thing be any different? If you like the model then have fun building and painting it, but I don't see why it needs 40k rules.
Other people do enjoy playing with massive unpainted armies, lined up in long gun lines, rolling buckets of dice and removing swathes of units at once.
And I have no idea why. Perhaps they're masochists and the usual whips and chains are getting boring? Apocalypse without awesome painted armies is an awful "game".
Who the hell are you to dictate that other people don't have the right to use whatever they like in their games?
I am God. Deal with it.
All they need, is the permission and agreement of the opponents they actually play with.
Yes, and this is a thread asking about opinions on using the Leviathan as a Warhound proxy. If you feel that polling random forum people isn't a productive discussion then feel free to not participate in it.
At this point I think we're done advancing the conversation when someone proclaims them self God for their opinion and counter - trolling that answer for said opinion.
Suffice to say, it is a matter of choice what you accept as reasonable stand ins to GW equivalents.
Could you for a moment even try to separate the rules from the models? Not everyone can or want to put hundreds/thousands to playing this game when proxying does the same.
Why does it bother you that they are not willing to throw more money at GW?
You've probably seen kids play football (not the game played with the pig skin ellipsoid) with make-do balls. Would you walk to them and tell them they are not allowed to play the game without an official FIFA football?
Peregrine wrote: Yes, and this is a thread asking about opinions on using the Leviathan as a Warhound proxy. If you feel that polling random forum people isn't a productive discussion then feel free to not participate in it.
Then why don't you phrase your opinion AS an opinion, instead of saying "I think it shouldn't be allowed." ?
You said "I don't like the idea and I think no-one else should ever be allowed to do it. Buy the actual model if you want to use the unit, and if its too expensive or you find it too difficult to build then tough, you don't have the right to use it whether you're playing against me or not".
You did not say "I don't like the idea, and I wouldn't agree to it if my opponent asked me but if other people want to do it in their games and their opponents are happy then thats their choice".
(2) is an opinion. (1) Is an arrogant demand that other people follow your wishes whether they're playing with you or not.
WarOne wrote: Suffice to say, it is a matter of choice what you accept as reasonable stand ins to GW equivalents.
As WarOne says. Your choice as to what you accept regarding proxies extends ONLY to the games you yourself are taking part in, or games taking place on premises or at an event you control (a shop, a tournament etc).
Your authority does not extend to other people and the games they play.
I'm going to go against my better judgment here and stick my toe in and ask the following;
Peregrine, would you have any problem with a leviathan as a warhound it it weren't armed with D weapons?
That way you can be sure people are taking it because they like the look of it, not because they are trying to powergame and if they are willing to concede any 'can I or can't I' LoS issues (which I really can't see happening, maybe I've just never seen a real apoc table though) then there shouldn't be a problem right?
The LOS issues are easily solved by agreeing that for the purposes of LOS, the model is always visible. Or agreeing that LOS is only blocked by terrain or models of a specific height (the true height of an actual Warhound).
Base size issues can be solved by just using a base equal to that of an actual Warhound.
A player using a Leviathan could be reasonably expected to restrict his model's weapon choices to the weapons that actually resemble the official Warhound weapons i.e. Vulcan mega bolter, plasma cannon etc (its what I would do. The Leviathan has options for a Vulkan bolter and a nova cannon thing, so I would restrict myself to those weapons).
These solutions might actually end up being a disadvantage for the controlling player, but imposing these sorts of handicaps on yourself will help to make it more palatable for your opponent.
WarOne wrote: Suffice to say, it is a matter of choice what you accept as reasonable stand ins to GW equivalents.
As WarOne says. Your choice as to what you accept regarding proxies extends ONLY to the games you yourself are taking part in, or games taking place on premises or at an event you control (a shop, a tournament etc).
Your authority does not extend to other people and the games they play.
Remembering his view on Forge World use, this is quite at odds with that. Let people use what they want.
Naw wrote: Could you for a moment even try to separate the rules from the models?
This I think defines Peregrine's stance. He refuses to think of a Model and its Unit profile/rules as seperate entities. A GW model, and the official profile/rules written for it are inseperable. One must never be used without the other, and hes offended by the very idea of other people doing so, even if he's not their opponent.
Whereas I consider the two as seperate entities. Linked only in that the rules/profile are officially recomended for that particular model, and most opponents you meet will expect you to use those rules but if I wanted to, I can choose to alternative models and rules provided I have my opponent's permission. Rules and profiles are just tools for us to play the game the way we want to, to have fun the way we want to. Official rules and models are recommended, and streamline games between strangers, but they're not arbitrary rules that must always be followed. If you have your opponents agreement, then you can alter the rules or make them up and use alternative miniatures as you see fit.
I got flak once when I mentioned my intention to use (for LOTR SBG) a Duinhir model and Halbarad Dunadan's profile (heavy armour, bow & spear) to represent a historical character in the LOTR universe (Aranarth, the first Dunedain chieftan), a character for which no model and no rules existed. (The army was an early Third Age Arnor force set after the fall of Fornost). Several people stated they were offended by the very idea, and insisted that I shouldn't be allowed to do it - I should use the official Halbarad model and the official Halbarad rules.
All you're stating is an opinion. You don't like the idea and you wouldn't agree to it if your own opponent wanted to do it, but if other people want to do it then thats their choice. That should be the end of it.
Its a very arrogant attitude - the idea that you have the right to dictate to other people who aren't your opponents, how and with what miniatures and rules they play the game.
Oh, something I forgot to point out in my last post, the base size thing is not a legitimate issue as the Warhound has no base. It is not supplied with one and no one should be under any obligation to mount it on one unless there is some note in the Apoc book telling you to and giving a size.
Why would you bother egging Peregrine on? He gave you his opinion. He wouldn't allow it, ignore the rest if it doesn't apply.
The more I look at it the more I just don't think it's a viable proxy. It is smaller in every way and the guns do make it look like a large action figure.
Not everyone can afford everything. For instance, I can't afford the Titan yet, so I haven't bought it, I tell myself that until I can afford it, I can't use it. Some people look for proxies of it, I just wait until I can afford the real deal.
Again, I'd probably allow it in Apoc but if it were legal for Escalation? Nah.
I'm going to go against my better judgment here and stick my toe in and ask the following;
Peregrine, would you have any problem with a leviathan as a warhound it it weren't armed with D weapons?
That way you can be sure people are taking it because they like the look of it, not because they are trying to powergame and if they are willing to concede any 'can I or can't I' LoS issues (which I really can't see happening, maybe I've just never seen a real apoc table though) then there shouldn't be a problem right?
It is funny that you asked this...because it struck something in me I didn't even know was there.
With how terribly overcosted the Warhound is with it's Vulcan/Flamer combination....I think I'd actually allow a Leviathan be played to represent this style of Warhound simply because its smaller size would help balance the points sink.....wow....odd. Thanks for that one Jono!!
I still don't like the overall idea of fielding lower priced models, despite what you can claim in aesthetics, for 40k. I could go into Toys'r'Us and pick up a plastic model that has guns on it and looks robotic for $20-45 and 'think it looks amazing!'...but it should never be put into Apoc games in my opinion.
I do have to agree with Peregrine on one part. A well done and well representative Scratchbuilt model will be allowed before a Leviathan, if being used as a Warhound. I have allowed one local player who has plasticard Warhounds(x3) and a Reaver done to such quality that across a 12' table of Apoc...you can't even tell it isn't the real thing without doing a close double-take due to the amazing job in painting and modeling. Those are always welcome in my Apoc games. -=Shrug=-
I'll also digress that if you use a Leviathan with house rules, I'd be more open to that. That shows thought, time, and effort that doesn't cost money at all. That would mean you value your model for the sake of the model and not the rules it could provide being counted as a Warhound.
It is...interesting...to see the amount of vitriol in this thread. Some of the arguments against the Leviathan are quite valid, but others, not so much:
The price argument just offends me, as it basically boils down to "I won't play you because you didn't pay enough money to play me." And since when is $120 "cheap?"
The height of the model? Is LOS really that much of an issue? How many people play with LOS-blocking terrain that is almost a foot tall and almost as wide? How many such pieces do you play with to make this a genuine problem in actual practice?
Base size? A 5" blast would have to scatter a minimum of 6 inches (after BS adjustments) to miss the Leviathan's base entirely. A potential problem, to be sure, but somewhat minor in actual practice, and easily solved with a bigger base.
Aesthetics? Understandable. I bought mine to use as a Grey Knights Warhound (sometimes, you just gotta break out the really big boys to take out the really big demons) where it visually fits in rather well, but I certainly agree it wouldn't visually fit well within a normal IG force.
Proxy? If you don't approve of proxies in general, that's fine, I understand that.
D-weapons? If your group has problems with them, house rule them to work better. If you can't (organized events, etc.), well, I can understand that argument, as D-weapons are a bit much in the current edition. I plan to field mine with mega bolter and plasma blastgun, anyway.
And, honestly, if GW released some rules for Knights (or if someone could point me in the direction of some fanmade Knight rules that are actually viable and not a fanboy's wetdream), I would most likely use those instead, as I would find it much rather fitting for my Grey Knights Leviathan to still have a big Nemesis sword to swing around at the big demons.
I wouldn't. it just does not look like a titan. If you would convert it to the point that it actually looks like a Warhound Titan, than I would have no problems with it. I have no problem with proxying, but it has it's limits.
Of course, I might make an exection if you are considering buying a titan and want to try out the rules, but at that point, you might as well use a plastic bottle.
I also might make an execption if you would have some really awesome fluff about why it looks so different from a normal titan
Also, it does not feel fair against players that spent a year's worth of pocket money to actually field a real titan, but that is a different discussion entirely.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: All you're stating is an opinion. You don't like the idea and you wouldn't agree to it if your own opponent wanted to do it, but if other people want to do it then thats their choice. That should be the end of it.
Its a very arrogant attitude - the idea that you have the right to dictate to other people who aren't your opponents, how and with what miniatures and rules they play the game.
It is indeed his opinion, but isn't that what the OP asked for? People's opinions? You should respect his opinion, even if you disagree with it.
Something that really needs to be addressed is the absolutely horrid quality of the craftsmanship in forgeworld titans. I will never buy one simply because I don't want to pay so much for the privilege of receiving something that I'll spend countless hours fixing before I can even begin to have the pleasure of putting it together and painting it. Can I afford one? Yes. I can afford an entire fleet of them but I refuse to throw good money at a bad product. My time is more valuable than that. I love the leviathan because it's hard plastic and a dream to assemble. If FW can match that experience, I have no problem purchasing one of their kits but if my experience with the barracuda I purchased is any measure, no thank you.
I don't play a lot of Apoc - I do not have the time or patience. But when I do I would certainly allow it. It looks good. We have a pretty laid-back group in our area. Seems to me that Apoc is not a 'highly competitive' environment - but judging from the thread I may be mistaken!
I do Orks and a lot of my stuff is scratchbuilt or kitbashed. I have guns made from tryanid parts, Necron parts, Imperial parts etc. The rule for that seems to be that if it looks GOOD it is usually OK.
I have thought about getting this model just because it would look cool painted up as a giant Ultramarine... but it would also be VERY cool as a Stompa... once it was properly converted/riveted and given a big gob (I really dislike the football-shaped Stompas)
I think there are many guys on this list who would not play against it -- well, it doesn't bother me because I would not play with them. I do this for fun & relaxation.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Are these as tall as a Stompa? Now I am really taken with the idea... Xmas is coming...
Iron_Captain wrote: I wouldn't. it just does not look like a titan. If you would convert it to the point that it actually looks like a Warhound Titan, than I would have no problems with it. I have no problem with proxying, but it has it's limits.
Of course, I might make an exection if you are considering buying a titan and want to try out the rules, but at that point, you might as well use a plastic bottle.
I also might make an execption if you would have some really awesome fluff about why it looks so different from a normal titan
All fair points. If you feel that way, all you have to do is decline a game and let the owner go look for someone to play with who will agree with it.
Also, it does not feel fair against players that spent a year's worth of pocket money to actually field a real titan, but that is a different discussion entirely.
Whether other players get the official FW model is irrelevant. They have the official model for the unit, so its less likely that their opponents will decline a game with them. Someone using an alternative model is more likely to have potential opponents decline a game.
Everybody can go get the Leviathan as an alternative Titan if they want to. Other people choosing to use it is not unfair on people who get the FW model, its got nothing to do with them. If you disagree with it, just decline playing a game and let the owner go look for someone else who will agree.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: All you're stating is an opinion. You don't like the idea and you wouldn't agree to it if your own opponent wanted to do it, but if other people want to do it then thats their choice. That should be the end of it.
Its a very arrogant attitude - the idea that you have the right to dictate to other people who aren't your opponents, how and with what miniatures and rules they play the game.
It is indeed his opinion, but isn't that what the OP asked for? People's opinions? You should respect his opinion, even if you disagree with it.
I would respect his opinion, if he actually stated it as an opinion. All he needs to say is "I don't like it because of X,Y,Z and I wouldn't allow my own opponent to do it but if you want to and you find someone who consents to it then go ahead".
Instead, what hes been saying is " I don't like the idea and I think nobody else should be allowed to do it. You're a TFG who only cares about powergaming and getting as many D Weapons as possible. If you can't afford the official model, then you don't have any right to use the unit".
Thats not stating an opinion, its dictating what other people who aren't his opponents do with their own armies.
Lets look at the fluff here. There are a million different imperial worlds. Lets say only one in 200 produces titans (maybe less granted), thats 5000 different worlds spread across the galaxy that produce titans. Now even with imperial decrees that limit technological advances, are you telling me there will be NO variation between the warhounds?
If people wont let you use it - dont play them. Its their loss, as they lose the chance of a fun game.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: So Titans, and anything else that happens to be horrifically expensive, are completely off limits to everyone who cannot realistically afford it?
Well, unless you want to scratchbuild one as nice as the real thing. But who cares if it's off-limits? If you don't have the awesome titan model then what exactly are you missing? The cheap D-weapons?
Ok I think im starting to observe when something ticks here..
Ok Peregrine, you keep on implying that Apoc has tactics in its games by suggesting that people only buy the model to "spam D-Weapons"
Here is apoc down to the core, in the form of a poem:
The thing is, apoc is only a game that is not to be taken seriously and the vast majority of gamers will not be thinking on a tactical scale when it comes to apoc, in fact majority of gamers will be thinking alongside the poem as well, only very few gamers will apply apoc to a competitive sense and an even smaller minority of players will be thinking along the lines you spout out on this thread.
The thing is majority of people just want awesome looking models (not toys as you keep on referring too as no one has even implied that) on the table just shooting stuff, majority of apoc gamers will not instinctively look at apoc and deliberately look for cheese and try to break it like competitive players in 6th ed. 40k do.
To impose this as an objective fact is ludicrous, to impose it as every apoc gamer would buy the leviathan to break cheese is ludicrous.
Most apoc gamers when they buy this will have more of a mindset of "that looks cool" rather than "Im going to smash face more than ever before".
Most apoc players will simply just play it for what it is, which is the poems intention rather than competitive 40k.
So don't try and impose that every gamer who plays apoc and buys the leviathan is a neckbeard/TFG/cardboard spammer/what ever else you have tarred with one brush, apoc gamers to be/etc/etc looking to break apoc by "spamming D-weapons", because they aren't, they just see a cool model that would look cool to build, paint and play on the grounds of apoc.
Except gameplay IS affected. Besides the massive TLOS issues models proxy just need to look like the standard model so that you can easily tell what it is. Apocalypse has enough to keep track of as it is, adding in proxies that don't look anything like the standard model only adds to that confusion.
You're trying to tell us that being slightly smaller but still f-ing massive is affecting gameplay? Have you played APOC games? You're grabbing at straws on this one, tiny knight titan using warhound rules and having obvious stand in guns does not break the game.
I Would have no issue with it in a freindly game.Furthermore I think people saying no to a model on the grounds of apearence shouldn't be playing any wargame . Conversions and proxies aren't to everyones taste but they define an army and should only be encouraged.
qwerty3666 wrote: I Would have no issue with it in a freindly game.Furthermore I think people saying no to a model on the grounds of apearence shouldn't be playing any wargame . Conversions and proxies aren't to everyones taste but they define an army and should only be encouraged.
No...conversions of official models define or provide character to an army (agreed). Proxies are for trying out the rules of something you are considering buying, No official model exists yet OR to avoid having to spend the money but still use a unit because you believe it a good addition (or is OP) to your army (what some of us say is not a valid reason).
The OP has stated that his reason for "proxy" is to avoid paying the cost for a model that he deems excessive. As to your "furthermore" statement, I will counter with my own absurd personal bias as well....I think those who cant afford to play the game as intended using the official rules and official models should play something else....I hear checkers is pretty cheap.
And whoever said the Warhound doesnt have D weapons, I hope you were referring to your own model, because it can absolutely fire 4x D strength shots per turn with turbo-lasers.
qwerty3666 wrote: I Would have no issue with it in a freindly game.Furthermore I think people saying no to a model on the grounds of apearence shouldn't be playing any wargame . Conversions and proxies aren't to everyones taste but they define an army and should only be encouraged.
No...conversions of official models define or provide character to an army (agreed). Proxies are for trying out the rules of something you are considering buying, No official model exists yet OR to avoid having to spend the money but still use a unit because you believe it a good addition (or is OP) to your army (what some of us say is not a valid reason).
The OP has stated that his reason for "proxy" is to avoid paying the cost for a model that he deems excessive. As to your "furthermore" statement, I will counter with my own absurd personal bias as well....I think those who cant afford to play the game as intended using the official rules and official models should play something else....I hear checkers is pretty cheap.
And whoever said the Warhound doesnt have D weapons, I hope you were referring to your own model, because it can absolutely fire 4x D strength shots per turn with turbo-lasers.
My imperial guard army is all "Proxy" models (for the infantry). I used various 28-32mm scale sci fi human sites to scratch build my own unique imperial guard army. Spent even more time and money than usual (got them all commissioned too). Why? Because i didnt want to spend my money on GW branded guardsmen. The best armies i have ever seen are the ones that where made using alternate models from other companies and very good counts as models. I think the cost for boring detail lacking Cadians horribly over priced. I will not spend a dime on those models. I would rather spend less money on a superior scult from victoria miniatures. Some people have an imagination, let them use it.
Would you tell me to play checkers because i didnt play my imperial guard army as intended (as the images you see in the codex where the rules are found)?
Edited by Manchu
Its not like he wanted to buy 5 of them, just one. I think that knight looks awesome. Id pick that over the warhound. The bigger titan is by far the better one (no idea what its called). But if the leviathan was put on the opposite side of my table with smoke effect coming out of those tourches on its back and was nicely detailed id applaud him for putting in effort and saving money. Id more impressed seeing that than the guy who purchased 5 official warhounds.
Agree 100% on the Imperial Guard infantry. If only the cadians weren't so "heroic"... I prefer virtually any other range of basic troopers. I'm torn on the tanks though, with a love/hate thing.
There's ample justification for using a Dreamforge Leviathan or Mortis in 40k, with rediscovered STCs and what not. You can say it's not a warhound, but it's functionally equivalent to one. Same goes for Chaos, they aren't restricted to STC patterns so there's even more likelihood of them using non-official stuff.
qwerty3666 wrote: I Would have no issue with it in a freindly game.Furthermore I think people saying no to a model on the grounds of apearence shouldn't be playing any wargame . Conversions and proxies aren't to everyones taste but they define an army and should only be encouraged.
No...conversions of official models define or provide character to an army (agreed). Proxies are for trying out the rules of something you are considering buying, No official model exists yet OR to avoid having to spend the money but still use a unit because you believe it a good addition (or is OP) to your army (what some of us say is not a valid reason). The OP has stated that his reason for "proxy" is to avoid paying the cost for a model that he deems excessive. As to your "furthermore" statement, I will counter with my own absurd personal bias as well....I think those who cant afford to play the game as intended using the official rules and official models should play something else....I hear checkers is pretty cheap.
And whoever said the Warhound doesnt have D weapons, I hope you were referring to your own model, because it can absolutely fire 4x D strength shots per turn with turbo-lasers.
My imperial guard army is all "Proxy" models (for the infantry). I used various 28-32mm scale sci fi human sites to scratch build my own unique imperial guard army. Spent even more time and money than usual (got them all commissioned too). Why? Because i didnt want to spend my money on GW branded guardsmen. The best armies i have ever seen are the ones that where made using alternate models from other companies and very good counts as models. I think the cost for boring detail lacking Cadians horribly over priced. I will not spend a dime on those models. I would rather spend less money on a superior scult from victoria miniatures. Some people have an imagination, let them use it.
Would you tell me to play checkers because i didnt play my imperial guard army as intended (as the images you see in the codex where the rules are found)?
Edited by Manchu
Its not like he wanted to buy 5 of them, just one. I think that knight looks awesome. Id pick that over the warhound. The bigger titan is by far the better one (no idea what its called). But if the leviathan was put on the opposite side of my table with smoke effect coming out of those tourches on its back and was nicely detailed id applaud him for putting in effort and saving money. Id more impressed seeing that than the guy who purchased 5 official warhounds.
If you notice I said I would counter an absurd statement with an equally absurd one. I was making a point that absurd personal bias (saying that we shouldnt play any wargame) should be left out of the discussion. The statement was MEANT to be over the top to prove a point. However your comments about imbreeding are a personal attack that has nothing to do with the discussion at hand and meant only to insult myself and anyone who agrees with my stance on the subject. I would advise you to redact that statement.
As far as the "its not like he wants to buy 5"...it doesnt matter if he wants to buy 1, 2 or 5....he wants to field a model because its rules appeal to him but doesnt want to use the official model. If he is playing friendly games with people he knows I am sure they will have no problem with it. However, if I show up to an event (not a tourney but lets say there is some prize support for most kills or whathaveyou) then I expect to see official models across the table from me. Same way as I would expect your guard army to be disqualified at an official tourney that requires a percentage of actual GW content per model.
quickfuze wrote: If you notice I said I would counter an absurd statement with an equally absurd one. I was making a point that absurd personal bias (saying that we shouldnt play any wargame). The statement was MEANT to be over the top to prove a point. However your comments about imbreeding are a personal attack that has nothing to do with the discussion at hand and meant only to insult myself and anyone who agrees with my stance on the subject. I would advise you to redact that statement.
As far as the "its not like he wants to buy 5"...it doesnt matter if he wants to buy 1, 2 or 5....he wants to field a model because its rules appeal to him but doesnt want to use the official model. If he is playing friendly games with people he knows I am sure they will have no problem with it. However, if I show up to an event (not a tourney but lets say there is some prize support for most kills or whathaveyou) then I expect to see official models across the table from me. Same way as I would expect your guard army to be disqualified at an official tourney that requires a percentage of actual GW content per model.
If you didnt mean it then dont take my comment seriously, it will stay up as there have been other comments similar to yours and it annoys me. Yes re reading that i feel a little stupid about that so.... sorry to you.
As you are fairly new to the site I was simply giving you an opportunity to pull it before a MOD comes in and smacks you on the hand for it. I can assure you that they are not going to let it stay up there and the only thing that will result is you getting a warning about following the rules of the site.
quickfuze wrote: As you are fairly new to the site I was simply giving you an opportunity to pull it before a MOD comes in and smacks you on the hand for it. I can assure you that they are not going to let it stay up there and the only thing that will result is you getting a warning about following the rules of the site.
quickfuze, though the OP appears to be looking to save money; I for one am mainly into the aesthetics...that and I despise resin. So. I have a choice if I ever want to play an Apoc game with anything that has a chance of lasting more than a turn and that's the Leviathan right now. I like the model and it's in plastic and roughly similar in size. As I mentioned earlier, the folks in my area don't have any issues imagining an extra couple of inches here and there and I always give them the benefit if there's any doubt. Heck, it's a game and I'm just looking to have some fun then go have a beer and laugh a bit.
Personally, I can afford any titan that you care to put on the internet but will never purchase papercraft or resin out of personal preference so that leaves "official" models out for now. The good news is, again, nobody that I've ever met seems to care a bit.
The guy talking about the IG army reminded me of the sweet undead IG army I saw. A local guy had a vampire counts army that he got tired of playing so converted the whole thing over to IG; that was cool.
Dont get me wrong, I also play fantasy and love the vampire counts fluff.....I however despise the skeleton and zombie models currently in production and find that Mantic produces a much more realistic and dynamic product (and cheaper, although that is not a deciding factor) and though I do like some of the new Dark elf stuff I still like the alternate DE army that is sold on CMON (cant remember company right now). As I enjoy painting and modeling even more than playing I would consider buying them, painting them and playing them with my friends, but I would be hard pressed to put them on the table against an opponent I did not know, and I would never try to justify trying to take them to an entry fee type event (Nova, Adepticon etc)
I own a ton of the Mantic undead and agree completely that they're much better models than the current GW zombies and skellies but it's mainly because the GW range is so old. Kind of like Bretonnians; the Perry Brother models make much better Brettonians than GW's.
The VC/IG army was a trip though (actually, I think it was a DKOK army). Completely converted with lasguns on the zombies.
Well it looks like you chaps have managed to get back to gentlemanly discussion so thanks for that! It's just toy soldiers after all. When it makes your blood pressure rise, it's no longer worth it.
Tannhauser42 wrote: The price argument just offends me, as it basically boils down to "I won't play you because you didn't pay enough money to play me."
No, that's not the argument at all. The argument is "I won't play you because you brought a proxy model that looks nothing like the real thing, and your only justification is that it's cheap". The model doesn't look like a Warhound, so why should it be a Warhound? Because you want the powerful Warhound rules?
Man, reading this thread hasn't altered any of my perceptions on the Leviathan subject, but has me utterly convinced that Peregrine needs to switch to decaff. Down boy!
But for reals, once you get to Apoc games, you get all sorts of ridiculous counts-as, proxying and conversions/scratch builds. I'm building my tau themed warhound out of a Metal Gear Rex model that isn't quite big enough to foot the bill, but so what? The only guy who would say no to these models is going to be TFG, and you know he's going to cause problems anyway so who cares if he's causing problems over your stuff?
bossfearless wrote: But for reals, once you get to Apoc games, you get all sorts of ridiculous counts-as, proxying and conversions/scratch builds.
Yes, and I hate that this happens. I hate that most of the time Apocalypse is reduced to going to walmart, buying a bunch of cheap toys, and putting as many D-weapons as possible on the table.
The only guy who would say no to these models is going to be TFG, and you know he's going to cause problems anyway so who cares if he's causing problems over your stuff?
Or just someone who values the fluff of the game and wants to imagine an epic battle in the 40k universe, not a bunch of random anime robots pretending to be titans.
(Also, Tau don't have titans, so there's a valid fluff reason to dislike your model even if you make a good one.)
Which is a completely different situation since it's a GW design for a unit that has no model, and follows that GW design as accurately as possible. The Leviathan, on the other hand, looks nothing like a Warhound and the only reason to give it the Warhound's rules is that it's a cheap titan-shaped object.
So yeah, third party models have every right to be on the table in 40k and Apoc.
No they don't. Some people might choose to allow them, but they don't have a right to be there. And if you want to accuse people of TFG behavior, well, I could say the same about acting like you're entitled to use whatever random proxy models you can find at the local walmart.
So yeah, third party models have every right to be on the table in 40k and Apoc.
No they don't. Some people might choose to allow them, but they don't have a right to be there. And if you want to accuse people of TFG behavior, well, I could say the same about acting like you're entitled to use whatever random proxy models you can find at the local walmart.
Yeah, cause Walmart routinely stocks Dreamforge Leviathans and Kotobukiya MG-Rex models. You're confusing hundred-plus dollar models with three dollar toddler toys. In the end, guys who go out of their way to ban other people from using their preferred models are likely just trying to defend their own obscenely large collection of overpriced FW kits. On the bright side, Apoc games tend to have to be set up far out in advance to get everyone organized and together for the whole day, so that gives players time to confer on these issues and weed out the model(s) or player(s) that are going to cause problems. It likely boils down to your individual gaming group and their preferences as to what will actually get fielded in the game, but then while you're playing you're more than likely to have a guy from the Peregrine school of thought (read: Ken from Armada Games) walk by the table, see everyone having a good time with proxy models, and throw a massive fit.
bossfearless wrote: Yeah, cause Walmart routinely stocks Dreamforge Leviathans and Kotobukiya MG-Rex models.
Not those specifically, but I've seen plenty of cheap toys on Apocalypse tables.
You're confusing hundred-plus dollar models with three dollar toddler toys.
Not really. The only difference is the price tag. The models are just as inappropriate.
In the end, guys who go out of their way to ban other people from using their preferred models are likely just trying to defend their own obscenely large collection of overpriced FW kits.
Or just people who are tired of having the fluff of their game ruined by having a bunch of random toys on the table instead of proper 40k armies.
Seriously guys, stop replying to the obvious bait posts. There's a reason he responds to very specific things and ignores everything else.
Yonan wrote: Agree 100% on the Imperial Guard infantry. If only the cadians weren't so "heroic"... I prefer virtually any other range of basic troopers. I'm torn on the tanks though, with a love/hate thing.
Alternative IG infantry are a wonderful thing. They might actually be the most attractive part of the modelling hobby for me. With the other armies you can get different paint jobs, or the very rare alternate model or painstaking mass conversion. But with IG? There are more accessible options for representing your soldiers out there than there are models for every other army! I love the variety I can choose from, and the reduced price of some of them doesn't hurt, either. It's a great way to add character to a collection.
Soo......what I have gathered from reading all the wonderful "constructive" criticism on this thread.
-Spending 100 dollars on a model for fun proxying as something out of your price range qualifies you as a cheapskate. There is no hobby side, only official models!
-Using repeated insults is perfectly fine, because you aren't trying to bully someone you'll never meet into doing things your way, you are just showing them the virtuous path you walk on.
-Titans are equipped with a pile of D-weapons that fire out other D-weapons. You are TFG if you like Titans.
Wow, how times have changed since the 90's, when I started.
I'm just throwing this pic of a 15mm Crusader conversion out there from the Dreamforge thread in Rumors. It epitomizes everything I love about the hobby side of 40K.
bossfearless wrote: But for reals, once you get to Apoc games, you get all sorts of ridiculous counts-as, proxying and conversions/scratch builds.
Yes, and I hate that this happens. I hate that most of the time Apocalypse is reduced to going to walmart, buying a bunch of cheap toys, and putting as many D-weapons as possible on the table.
Thats fine. You're entitled to your opinion on the use of non-GW models and proxies, and its a perfectly valid strance. All you have to do is say no when someone asks your permission to use such a thing in your game. The thing is...
Or just people who are tired of having the fluff of their game ruined by having a bunch of random toys on the table instead of proper 40k armies.
If you're not participating in the game, then its not your game, period. You have no right to dictate what other people do when they play Warhammer 40K without you. If people want to invent their own fluff for their own games and their actual opponents consent to it, using original characters, entirely original races, original and unofficial models and even a mix of proxies and official rules/profiles than thats their business, not yours. All they need is their actualy opponent's consent, not you.
Do you not see the arrogance in your insistence that...
... nobody else (i.e. strangers off the internet who you'll never meet) should ever do it because YOU don't like it?
... that they should not have the right to use whatever models and unit profiles they like when their actual opponents consent to it?
...that if they can't afford or build the model then they don't have the right to use the unit?
...if they want to use a Titan, they're a TFG who just wants lots of D weapons? (wheras someone with $$$$$ to blow on 3 or more official GW Titans is not motivated by D weapons?)
You've made your opinion clear ad nauseam. In the unlikely event that we ever play a game, and I have a Leviathan that I want to use, if you say no thats absolutely fine. I'll either come up with an alternate list that does not include the titan, or I'll look for another opponent who will consent to it. If someone else does consent to it, and you're not involved in the game then its none of your business.
Also, have you seen this video yet?
Based on your comments and behaviour in this thread, your persistent insults, sneering, and arrogant contempt of everyone who dares have a different opinion to you and who dare do something that you disapprove of in their own games, I'll be adding you to my ignore list in future, once this thread dies down. I can't say I'm interested in the opinions of such an unpleasant person.
I suggest you do the same, and we can both live in blissful ignorance of each other from now on.
@aegisgrimm: That khorne leviathan is pretty sweet. That's the 15mm version? My buddy out here has the regular sized one (28mm?) and I'm interested to see a size comparison between the two.
I think we can all agree that someone whose sig contains the words "sell me your fw superheavies" is probably not in touch with the economic issues that contribute to most of the lower cost titan alternatives. I sense a rebuttal to the tune of "you want cheap, go play clix!" in the works.
Peregrine may not be the nicest person around, but bashing him like you guys are doing degrades you to the same level.
-Using alternative models that look very different from 40k models break the immersion. They contradict the fluff, and the fluff is one of the main reasons people play 40k. Things like Tau titans make no sense in 40k fluff and therefore I would not want to play against such a model.
-Using alternative models without converting them to look like they fit in the 40k universe makes you a cheapskate IMO. Furthermore, alternative models should be (almost) the same size as the official model, both for gameplay and immersion purposes.
Apart from that, I have nothing against the use of alternative models. In fact, alternative models are just great for the IG, as they are supposed to be extremely varied. I use the Eisenkern Stormtroopers for my IG army and they look great.
In short, conversions are okay as long as they look 'fluffy'.
Iron_Captain wrote: Peregrine may not be the nicest person around, but bashing him like you guys are doing degrades you to the same level.
We're not "bashing" him, hes bashing everyone else that disagrees with him. Did you miss all the derogatory insults and sneers hes been making about people who do things with their models and games that he disapproves of?
-Using alternative models that look very different from 40k models break the immersion. They contradict the fluff.
In short, conversions are okay as long as they look 'fluffy'.
Thats subjective.
If people don't like the idea, thats fine. Thats their opinion and they don't have to play with people who do it. But they have NO right to demand that other people not do it, as Peregrine has been doing.
Apart from that, I have nothing against the use of alternative models. In fact, alternative models are just great for the IG, as they are supposed to be extremely varied. I use the Eisenkern Stormtroopers for my IG army and they look great.
As Pergrine would say...you're a cheap skate who just wants lots of Imperial Guard as cheap as possible. Use the official models or play a different game.
In short, conversions are okay as long as they look 'fluffy'.
I agree, I like fluffy games with models that make sense. But I'm not going to throw a fit when other people do something I disapprove of in games that I'm not involved in, as Peregrine is doing.
(In this case, I regard using a Leviathan as a Warhound as being acceptable and would allow my opponent to do it. Its just rules after all, we're not legally obliged to use the actual Warhound model if we don't want to and our opponenents consent to it).
I for one am glad that people are showing distaste in Peregrine
And i was looking at the guard and interesting to note: The Heavy Bolter.
You got ones that are kneeling with a tall shielded version, some sitting on one with small profile and some lying down with a very low profile. All of these look very different and feature different shapes and sizes (and different loading systems). An extremely common weapon that is produced on a massive scale has so much variation in how the gun works, how it is set up and depends on how the target users are going to use it.
Why then cant a titan be the same? The rules dont change for the heavy bolters despite having at least 4 different versions i can see (6 if you include the FW ones). Despite looking completely different in size and set up (some have wheels, some have chain fed, some have gravity fed, tripods etc etc) they all use the same rules. Some dont even have a base.
If you can accept that bolters (and lasguns for that matter) come in varieties to suit the needs of the users then i am cetain it is the same for vehicles.
Elysians have a different sentinel to "standard".
The list can go on. I would argue the case (although rare, but the GK are supposed to be rare and i see them all the time ) that some leviathans are made for different circumstances and different users. The fluff shows heaps of variation in their official models so why cant we show variation in our current models that don't give us choices?
Apart from that, I have nothing against the use of alternative models. In fact, alternative models are just great for the IG, as they are supposed to be extremely varied. I use the Eisenkern Stormtroopers for my IG army and they look great.
Iron_Captain wrote: Furthermore, alternative models should be (almost) the same size as the official model, both for gameplay and immersion purposes.
I've seen Riptides being modeled in as low pose as possible, making them over 2" shorter than the norm. GW talks only about the base size and even then gives the liberty to use what looks cool.
My Rogue Trader era marines are shorter than the current ones, would they also break immersion?
I do not know what Peregrine's issue is. He should be happy when players use alternative models. If I already did not have a huge number of figures I would try to find some alternatives just to look different.
To be quite honest, I see where Peregrine is coming from. Where do you draw the line?
A shoebox is cheaper than a Land Raider Spartan, and the cardboard is easier to work with than Forge World resin, and in my opinion looks just as cool.
I mean, what audacity someone would have to tell me I I can't use my shoebox!!
Unit1126PLL wrote: I mean, what audacity someone would have to tell me I I can't use my shoebox!!
Thats a straw man argument. Asides from the fact that noone here has actually said they want to use shoeboxes as Land Raiders...even if you did want to, all you need is your opponent's permission, period.
Opponent says no > use something else, or find a different opponent who will consent to it.
Opponent says yes > you get to use it.
Peregrine doesn't like it > completely irrelevant if hes not your opponent. He has no authority and influence over games he's not involved in, however much he likes to think so.
(regarding shoeboxes and other weird objects used as stand ins...I wouldn't like it either, and normally I wouldn't consent to it, except when my opponent/friend/etc wants to try out various units proxying random objects before committing to buying a model, in which case I might do it as a favour).
Unit1126PLL wrote: I mean, what audacity someone would have to tell me I I can't use my shoebox!!
Thats a straw man argument. Asides from the fact that noone here has actually said they want to use shoeboxes as Land Raiders...even if you did want to, all you need is your opponent's permission, period.
Opponent says no > use something else, or find a different opponent who will consent to it.
Opponent says yes > you get to use it.
Peregrine doesn't like it > completely irrelevant if hes not your opponent. He has no authority and influence over games he's not involved in, however much he likes to think so.
(regarding shoeboxes and other weird objects used as stand ins...I wouldn't like it either, and normally I wouldn't consent to it, except when my opponent/friend/etc wants to try out various units proxying random objects before committing to buying a model, in which case I might do it as a favour).
Yes, it is a strawman, but it uses the same logic, and the goal is to point out flaws in the logic.
You're also right that what the opponent says goes, sure, but the thread is a thread asking about whether or not people would allow the Dreamforge Leviathan to be used as an Imperial Titan. Saying that I don't like it is fine, saying everyone else shouldn't allow it is fine too.
Giving an opinion of what should be the case (i.e. everyone should disallow it) is not the same thing as holding a gun to your head and forcing you to refuse to play it. He's stating his opinion, as asked for in the thread, and his opinion is that it is too improper and should not ever be allowed.
The ironic thing is that the day FW releases a Tau Titan, everyone here that says "Tau shouldn't have Titans, it breaks the immersion" will be fundamentally wrong in their narrow point of view. In the case of the Leviathan model, which looks nearly identical to an Epic 40k Knight Titan, saying it does not fit the 40k setting is a statement in ignorance. From to beginning, 40k has always been a game where cool looking models and crazy scratch-builds had a place (I'm looking at you, deodorant bottle Space Marine Grav-Tank!).
I feel sad seeing this great garage hobby turn into an elitist snob grudge-fest over the past decade, where a law degree is needed to win a rules argument, and an art degree is needed so as not to offend the immersion of others.
Thankfully, the interwebz represents the vocal minority rather than the silent majority, allowing the rest of us to enjoy the fruits of cool looking models (regardless of manufacturor) and awesome games we can all talk smack about to our buddies (be they Bro or Fem).
jeffersonian000 wrote: The ironic thing is that the day FW releases a Tau Titan, everyone here that says "Tau shouldn't have Titans, it breaks the immersion" will be fundamentally wrong in their narrow point of view. In the case of the Leviathan model, which looks nearly identical to an Epic 40k Knight Titan, saying it does not fit the 40k setting is a statement in ignorance. From to beginning, 40k has always been a game where cool looking models and crazy scratch-builds had a place (I'm looking at you, deodorant bottle Space Marine Grav-Tank!).
I feel sad seeing this great garage hobby turn into an elitist snob grudge-fest over the past decade, where a law degree is needed to win a rules argument, and an art degree is needed so as not to offend the immersion of others.
Thankfully, the interwebz represents the vocal minority rather than the silent majority, allowing the rest of us to enjoy the fruits of cool looking models (regardless of manufacturor) and awesome games we can all talk smack about to our buddies (be they Bro or Fem).
SJ
I am willing to believe the Tau have Titans when the Tau get Titans in the fluff. As soon as that happens, I will switch sides of the debate, hands down. Like the God debate - if I ever see incontrovertible proof of his existence, I will switch sides in a heartbeat.
It does look like a Knight Titan, which is awesome. So make up your own Knight Titan rules for it, and I'd be very happy to play against you with it. I'd be happier with you making up rules to fit the mini than arbitrarily grabbing a mini to use for a specific set of rules.
As far as the rest of your post, eh. I disagree. I don't mind all the bickering and the fighting, because it's all, as you say, on the internet. So no worries about it - keep on keepin' on.
EDIT: Hell, Knight Titan rules would be easy!
Smaller, less well-protected than the Warhound, with only one layer of Void Shield. So, say, 13-13-12, 6 Hull Points, one Void Shield layer. As for weapons, I know the old knights could have a Battlecannon, so it can have one of those, or a Melta Cannon like off of the Devil Dog (or the melta weapon from the Caestus). Then, perhaps a Titan Close Combat Weapon. Sound good?
Iron_Captain wrote: They contradict the fluff, and the fluff is one of the main reasons people play 40k. Things like Tau titans make no sense in 40k fluff ...
It's interesting to point out that many people said much the same thing about the entire Tau race when it was first introduced/released.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I am willing to believe the Tau have Titans when the Tau get Titans in the fluff. As soon as that happens, I will switch sides of the debate, hands down. Like the God debate - if I ever see incontrovertible proof of his existence, I will switch sides in a heartbeat.
The fact that Forgeworld has released a 100% official Tau Titan is not incontrovertible enough for you?
I quote, from none other than Peregine himself.
Everything GW publishes for standard 40k, including codices, supplements, Forge World, and White Dwarf, is part of the game. You can choose not to play with or against any of them, but don't pretend that your choice is anything but a house rule.
Hell, Knight Titan rules would be easy!
Smaller, less well-protected than the Warhound, with only one layer of Void Shield. So, say, 13-13-12, 6 Hull Points, one Void Shield layer. As for weapons, I know the old knights could have a Battlecannon, so it can have one of those, or a Melta Cannon like off of the Devil Dog (or the melta weapon from the Caestus). Then, perhaps a Titan Close Combat Weapon. Sound good?
Absolutely. Using a custom ruleset would be ideal, but its much less likely to be approved by your opponent than a proxy model using an official GW ruleset that has been written and er... 'balanced' by GW's game designers.
^^ Exactly, re knight titan. I only say use Leviathans as Warhounds because there aren't current official rules for knights (that I know of?). Leviathans do seem to be more closely styled towards knights. If there were official, current knight rules I doubt I'd hesitate to suggest using them.
If this is the official model/design for knight titans, it really does resemble the leviathan - however the leviathan trounces it in looks.
There is a definite line between forgeworld rules and homebrew rules. I'm in the FW = GW camp, so all FW is fair game for basically any game where tournaments haven't specifically prohibited it. Homebrew rules are for close friends only, at least until a big org like Dakka comes out with a comprehensive patch (so wish this would happen).
bossfearless wrote: I think we can all agree that someone whose sig contains the words "sell me your fw superheavies" is probably not in touch with the economic issues that contribute to most of the lower cost titan alternatives.
Yeah, because someone who is looking for ~$150 rare and OOP models is completely out of touch with economic issues, while someone who is arguing about how they should be allowed to use their $150 toy in a 40k game (and not even a standard everyday game, a special expansion game) understands very well what it's like to play a game within a limited budget.
The fact that Forgeworld has released a 100% official Tau Titan is not incontrovertible enough for you?
What "fact"? Neither FW nor GW have ever released anything remotely resembling a Tau titan, or included anything remotely resembling a Tau titan in the fluff.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: If you're not participating in the game, then its not your game, period. You have no right to dictate what other people do when they play Warhammer 40K without you. If people want to invent their own fluff for their own games and their actual opponents consent to it, using original characters, entirely original races, original and unofficial models and even a mix of proxies and official rules/profiles than thats their business, not yours. All they need is their actualy opponent's consent, not you.
So where exactly are you getting this ridiculous idea that when I say "I hate it" in a thread asking "what's your opinion on X" that means that I'm going to come to your game and force you at gunpoint to take your titan proxies off the table?
I suggest you do the same, and we can both live in blissful ignorance of each other from now on.
Nah, one-sided ignoring is a lot more fun. Then I get to publicly criticize you all I want and you never get to respond.
Peregrine wrote: What "fact"? Neither FW nor GW have ever released anything remotely resembling a Tau titan, or included anything remotely resembling a Tau titan in the fluff.
What is it, the Manta? The gigantic Tau ship that can carry heaps of models and has a lot of guns and is something like a grand.
Peregrine wrote: What "fact"? Neither FW nor GW have ever released anything remotely resembling a Tau titan, or included anything remotely resembling a Tau titan in the fluff.
What is it, the Manta? The gigantic Tau ship that can carry heaps of models and has a lot of guns and is something like a grand.
That's a superheavy flyer (small starship, really), not a titan.
Peregrine wrote: What "fact"? Neither FW nor GW have ever released anything remotely resembling a Tau titan, or included anything remotely resembling a Tau titan in the fluff.
Someone else said that Forgeworld has released a Titan-sized walker for Tau. I'd seen some images of new Tau walkers on the FW site but didn't know their size, so when I read the comment about Tau titans I connected the two.
You should direct this remark at the poster who brought up "Tau Titans" in the first place.
So where exactly are you getting this ridiculous idea that when I say "I hate it" in a thread asking "what's your opinion on X" that means that I'm going to come to your game and force you at gunpoint to take your titan proxies off the table?
You've stated several times that you dislike the idea and think that no-one else should be allowed to do it.
You have not been saying "I don't like it and wouldn't allow it myself but if you want to do it, go ahead". You've been saying "I don't like the idea and wouldn't allow it, and I don't think you should be allowed to do it either. Anyone who wants to do this is a power gaming, fluff ignoring cheapskate TFG who just wants to spam D-Weapons".
There wouldn't be an issue here, if you hadn't expressed your opinion as a Cease and Desist demand that nobody use Leviathan's as Warhounds (or use any non-GW models at all), and thrown some condescending insults in for good measure.
Nah, one-sided ignoring is a lot more fun. Then I get to publicly criticize you all I want and you never get to respond.
You do that if you wish. I'll settle with never again having to listen to your smug arrogant insults. A satisfactory result for both of us, yes?
Oh, and you still havn't confirmed that you've watched this video.
I would allow you to use the model, and I would allow you to use the Warhound rules for it. But I wouldn't allow you to refer to it as a "Warhound Titan" during the game. It's not a Warhound Titan. Call it a Warhound Titan and I'll pick up my models and leave.
A rediscovered STC pattern, calling it a crusader and just using the warhound rules works well for you then, right Bob? That's what I do. Blood Ravens search for lost lore and tech and are on good terms with Ad Mech so it's pretty damn fluffy for me imo.
That works well for me, yes. Having it as a count-as in terms of rules works for me. Not as a count-as in terms of fluff.
40K fluff is good, so I'm a little pickier and more "protective" when it comes to that. 40K rules are garbage, so the way I see it you can do what you want.
I see lots of comparisons of the leviathan as a toy..
Yeah because GW doesn't sell models that look like toys..........
Here's a few good examples:
Lets be honest the quality of here, the products do look toyish, and tbh if someone wanted to convert/use alternate stuff/both for these units, then I would have no problems with it, after all im not going to force them to use and play with ugly things that they don't like because "its official".
And lets also be honest here, Wargaming minis ARE toys, hence why we all joke about our Man-dollies and mini action men, so to be spouting that someone else should not use their toys because it doesn't fit his/her idea of what their toys fight is kinda petty don't you think?
And the same goes with the Warhound titan, some people may not like the look of the Warhound titan, and some may even hate it just as much as someone who may hate the Centurion models, and may find the Leviathan a much more cooler looking model to create, so why should they be penalised for having a model they wanted than one they did not? at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter if a model is official or not, if someone would rather invest into a Leviathan because it looks more awesome than, a Warhound in their opinion, why should they be penalised?
I see certain posters tarring all apoc gamers with the same brush here, about buying stuff because of the justification that it is cheaper, so lets get this straight:
Most apoc gamers do not care about winning a game of apoc
Most apoc gamers only care about putting awesome models on the table and recreating a Michael Bay movie in 40k.
Only few gamers will apply apoc to a competitive sense.
Even fewer will look at how to break apoc by "Spamming D-weapons"
The very few minority who do look at "Spamming D-weapons" are the one you want to avoid since they only really care about curb-stomping you and will not gain satisfaction until they do, and will apply the same logic in regular games in 40k.
As I have said again and again, most apoc gamers do not care about such things and look for only a fun time, not curb-stomping you.
As they say "A few bad apples to ruin the bunch"...
@aegisgrimm: That khorne leviathan is pretty sweet. That's the 15mm version? My buddy out here has the regular sized one (28mm?) and I'm interested to see a size comparison between the two.
As far as I know, that was one of the new 15mm Crusaders converted to replace the Khornemower. And it looks ten times better than the mound of skulls on tracks GW produced.
As far as I can tell, 15mm crusaders are scaled perfectly to be Knights, and prices very nicely to be able to afford a Household (squad). Just count the ranged weapon arm as a "rotary battlecannon", where instead of working full-on like a minigun, after each shot it rotates to the next "ready" barrel, like a giant revolver.
This argument has gone full circle so many times now I have completely lost count.
All it boils down to is one side screaming "You only want it cause you want D weapons and you are to poor to afford GW official D weapons, ergo, stop playing apocalypse"
where as the other side "sure you can use it, just alter the rules a bit to represent it being a smaller warhound and maybe save up to get the real one?"
People getting so worked up and stubborn in their ways is what ruins this hobby, it's just a hobby in which fully grown men push little plastic toys about a board. If you don't want to face the imposter warhound, simply don't and say so, I'm sure the player wont take offence if you give justified reasons which make sense
People getting so worked up and stubborn in their ways is what ruins this hobby, it's just a hobby in which fully grown men push little plastic toys about a board. If you don't want to face the imposter warhound, simply don't and say so, I'm sure the player wont take offence if you give justified reasons which make sense
Got it in one.
But I especially like how buying a 100 model, regardless of what it's supposed to be subbing for, makes you a cheapskate. Sign of the times of current 40K.
And my entry (not my work) on the subject of "poor idiots using cardboard boxes just so they can become cheapskate Apocolypse players overnight", titled "Eat it":
People getting so worked up and stubborn in their ways is what ruins this hobby, it's just a hobby in which fully grown men push little plastic toys about a board. If you don't want to face the imposter warhound, simply don't and say so, I'm sure the player wont take offence if you give justified reasons which make sense
Got it in one.
But I especially like how buying a 100 model, regardless of what it's supposed to be subbing for, makes you a cheapskate. Sign of the times of current 40K.
And my entry (not my work) on the subject of "poor idiots using cardboard boxes just so they can become cheapskate Apocolypse players overnight", titled "Eat it":
That carboard box looks amazing! Wish i could turn coke cans and breakfast boxes into well made models. Another thing, reckon those slating carboard models have all their scenery from GW and do not use homemade buildings or terrain?
Apart from that, I have nothing against the use of alternative models. In fact, alternative models are just great for the IG, as they are supposed to be extremely varied. I use the Eisenkern Stormtroopers for my IG army and they look great.
Got any pictures on Dakka?
Not yet, but I'm planning on uploading a few pictures once the army is fully finished. They fit in really well with my Iron Hands. Now I only need to find some viking IG to go with my Space Wolves...
And the cardboard box above looks amazing. I would make an exception for that
Didn't think thus was still going. Give it some modified rules apart from the Warhound. Maybe some weird Forge guardian or something. I doubt we know of every Titan variant. Heck we find new tech with every Imperium release... Stormraven, Dreadknight, Centurion Armour. Make something up I'm cool, but a Warhound is a Warhound. Lots of opportunity to write a story for that thing, don't just be a Warhound.
Haven't changed my view on not being a huge fan of it but to each their own.
Matt1785 wrote: Give it some modified rules apart from the Warhound. Maybe some weird Forge guardian or something. I doubt we know of every Titan variant. Heck we find new tech with every Imperium release... Stormraven, Dreadknight, Centurion Armour. Make something up I'm cool, but a Warhound is a Warhound. Lots of opportunity to write a story for that thing, don't just be a Warhound.
People are much less accepting of custom rules than they are custom models, with good reason imo. Giving it the warhound rules, which are the nearest fit official rules (that I know of) seems like the best idea, even if yeah you call it something else. Rediscovered STC gives ample opportunity for that. When players start designing rules for their own models you get the (often well earned) perception of the balancing being atrocious.
Just falls back to talking with your opponent first. Just make sure people are cool with what you've done and you are set. But I agree some may be less trustworthy to write rules then others... Just review them first.
I believe this issue may garner more attention when FW releases it's Lords of War option for the Warhound. I'd suspect more push back then. And it would be fair. I'm lucky with the group I play with. Everyone just wants to have a fun time.
I've used empty granola bar boxes for terrain, I am certainly not opposed to this (but wouldn't mind seeing some warhammerifying done to it to make it fit in a little more nicely).
A majority of the Warhounds around here are the armorcast ones, so I feel fewer people would object to a Dreamforge Leviathan. I have 34 titans (no, not kidding) so I'm not a "cheapskate". Sure, 15 are scratchbuilds, but still.
I bought my leviathan because it looked cool, its style fit with my grey knights army, it's easier to transport, and I love the swappable weapons option, that you can't do with the Forgeworld Titans.
Here is an Armorcast Warhound next to a leviathan.
Just in case anyone was wondering, here is a warhound next to the Epicast Knight, and a 15mm Leviathan. This is the older resin leviathan that is actually about and inch taller than the new plastic one.
Scale pics always nice, thanks for posting them. I'm scared to ask for a titan collection shot. I *want* to, but I'm worried about what it will do to my hobby budget.
I would allow it, though I think it would ruin the aesthetic of the game (my personal opinion). I also think that of the armourcast titans and a few other things. Occasionally in the case of a 1v1 apocalypse game with maybe 3-5k points per side where the point was to depict an epic clash of models (rather than the usual apocalypse "bring everything and duke it out" mantra) I would ask my opponent not to use it on the grounds that it would spoil the look of the two armies lined up and ready on the field. Say what you like about it, but I think the lack of detail and big, smooth surfaces all over it really detract from the 40k aesthetic. I would also wish to disallow the armourcast Warhound on the same grounds, and in this sort of battle I wouldn't want unpainted models either.
Now that FW has updated the selection of Lords of War for Escalation to include their super heavies, I have a feeling this debate will only get more heated.
My personal opinion is, if the Leviathan is modeled up to match the overall footprint of a warhound, I'd have no problem with it. Heck, reverse the legs so the knees point backward, extend the upper carapace and push the head forward a bit, and you have a decent looking warhound (and its the same size as the armourcast version).
ClassicCarraway wrote: Now that FW has updated the selection of Lords of War for Escalation to include their super heavies, I have a feeling this debate will only get more heated.
My personal opinion is, if the Leviathan is modeled up to match the overall footprint of a warhound, I'd have no problem with it. Heck, reverse the legs so the knees point backward, extend the upper carapace and push the head forward a bit, and you have a decent looking warhound (and its the same size as the armourcast version).
The pictures don't quite tell the whole truth. The Leviathan is taller than the top of the Armorcast Warhound's carapace, but not quite as tall as the "spikes". Although its torso isn't quite as long it does seem bulkier. Overall, I'd say the Leviathan might have a little more bulk than an Armorcast Warhound.
As to the lack of deatail, there ISN'T any. This is a highly detailed model. Sure, there are some flat surfaces. However, I find this more realistic than the GW theme of "detail for detail's sake". Opinions tend to get skewed a bit when you are used to seeing everything covered head to toe in skulls.
Scale pics always nice, thanks for posting them. I'm scared to ask for a titan collection shot. I *want* to, but I'm worried about what it will do to my hobby budget.
I've honestly never taken a picture of the entire lot all together. The most I have is 20 of them together (sadly missing two of the four Warlords and the Imperator). Dragging them out and posing them is actually quite a time consuming (and space consuming) process. I could possibly get on this after the New Year.
I still would not allow it as a Warhound. The size and look is way too different. But have you considered this: http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Knight It fits the Leviathan perfectly. If you could make up some cool house rules as well, I would love to play against it.
edit: Ah, I just read the last page XD Still, I feel you should give the knight a try. If people than won't allow you Leviathan as a Warhound, you could ask them if they are okay with you using it as a knight.
Does anyone have rules for Knight titans? I am currently making a chaos version of one of these guys and was wondering what people think about the idea of it being a Knight class titan and how they feel about it being over sized?
Well the problem with using it as a Knight is that people are more likely to be iffy about using unofficial, custom rules than they are an official GW ruleset.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Well the problem with using it as a Knight is that people are more likely to be iffy about using unofficial, custom rules than they are an official GW ruleset.
That is understandable... I found these rules from another post and was wondering what you guys thought of them:
Knight Power Field:
Imperial Knight Titans are protected by powerful force fields, that reduce the strength of incoming enemy firepower. Unlike the mighty void shields of a true Titan, these fields provide a focused shield in a single direction. This powerful protection is needed for them to truely aid their larger brethren on the battlefield.
A unit equiped with Knight Power Fields ignores the effects of the destroyer special rule against attacks coming from its front arc. Treat these as S10 ranged attacks instead. All other attacks from the front arc have a maximum strength of 8. Ignore these restrictions if the attack comes from within 6" of the unit.
Knight Lancer:
300pts.
F:13 S:12 R:11 WS:2 BS:4 S:10 I:1 A: 1
Type: Super-heavy Walker
Structure Points: 2
Equipment:
Knight Close Combat Weapon
Vanquisher Battle Cannon
2 Heavy Bolters
Knight Power Field
Special rules:
Irresistable Charge: Instead of gaing the normal bonus attack on the charge the Knight Lancer may reroll missed to hits and automatically penetrates any armor value and/or wounds any toughness value. Against creatures with a toughness value it causes d3 wounds.
Fleet
Knight Errant :
300pts.
F:12 S:12 R:11 WS:2 BS:4 S:10 I:1 A: 1
Type: Super-heavy Walker
Structure Points: 2
Equipment:
Knight Meltacannon
2 Heavy Bolters
Knight Close Combat Weapon
Knight Power Field
Options:
May excahnge its Knight Meltacannon for a Knight Inferno Gun +25pts.
Options:
My exchange its Knight Bolters with 4 Hydra Autocannons for +40pts
May exchange its Knight Missile Launcher for:
an Earthshaker Cannon- free.
A Ordnance 2 Medusa Siege Cannon- +50pts.
In either case it counts as a primary weapon due to the heavy shielding on a Knight Warden
so iv seen this asked a few times but no one has touched on it yet.
how do people feel about these being bought up for use as D weapon platforms under the escalation rules. because lets be honest here, they wont be bought for the mega bolters etc etc.
now in ways i dont mind if someone grabbed one as a temp proxy as they saved up for the real thing.... but well... same as most other proxies in my book.
ausYenLoWang wrote: so iv seen this asked a few times but no one has touched on it yet.
how do people feel about these being bought up for use as D weapon platforms under the escalation rules. because lets be honest here, they wont be bought for the mega bolters etc etc.
now in ways i dont mind if someone grabbed one as a temp proxy as they saved up for the real thing.... but well... same as most other proxies in my book.
But why styfle variation? If everyone thought like you then nobody would have cool unique units. My friend made his chaos out of a mix of fantasy and 40k models and they look epic. My friend had all his ork vehicles made from scratch and it puts GW models to shame. Why is it so wrong to use the not standard model in a game set in a universe where anything is possible. Im glad the people i play with let me use other company models because it looks far better (up to personal opinion of course) and it means my army doesnt look like the next guys army which looks like the next guys army and so on. Who cares how much it is. It doesnt matter how much you spend, its how little you can spend for the same/better result.
I say just let people be free to customize their army. Youd have to be very mentally challenged to not know what this model is meant to represent. Especially after being told the first time.
ausYenLoWang wrote: so iv seen this asked a few times but no one has touched on it yet.
how do people feel about these being bought up for use as D weapon platforms under the escalation rules. because lets be honest here, they wont be bought for the mega bolters etc etc.
now in ways i dont mind if someone grabbed one as a temp proxy as they saved up for the real thing.... but well... same as most other proxies in my book.
But why styfle variation? If everyone thought like you then nobody would have cool unique units. My friend made his chaos out of a mix of fantasy and 40k models and they look epic. My friend had all his ork vehicles made from scratch and it puts GW models to shame. Why is it so wrong to use the not standard model in a game set in a universe where anything is possible. Im glad the people i play with let me use other company models because it looks far better (up to personal opinion of course) and it means my army doesnt look like the next guys army which looks like the next guys army and so on. Who cares how much it is. It doesnt matter how much you spend, its how little you can spend for the same/better result.
I say just let people be free to customize their army. Youd have to be very mentally challenged to not know what this model is meant to represent. Especially after being told the first time.
because im styfling variation? how about those chimps that want to spend as little as possible to take advantage of game breaking rules... sure it could lead to a pay to win situation but i dont see how cheapening it expands the experiance, especially when you can now use a titan in normal games of 40k
ausYenLoWang wrote: so iv seen this asked a few times but no one has touched on it yet.
how do people feel about these being bought up for use as D weapon platforms under the escalation rules. because lets be honest here, they wont be bought for the mega bolters etc etc.
now in ways i dont mind if someone grabbed one as a temp proxy as they saved up for the real thing.... but well... same as most other proxies in my book.
But why styfle variation? If everyone thought like you then nobody would have cool unique units. My friend made his chaos out of a mix of fantasy and 40k models and they look epic. My friend had all his ork vehicles made from scratch and it puts GW models to shame. Why is it so wrong to use the not standard model in a game set in a universe where anything is possible. Im glad the people i play with let me use other company models because it looks far better (up to personal opinion of course) and it means my army doesnt look like the next guys army which looks like the next guys army and so on. Who cares how much it is. It doesnt matter how much you spend, its how little you can spend for the same/better result.
I say just let people be free to customize their army. Youd have to be very mentally challenged to not know what this model is meant to represent. Especially after being told the first time.
because im styfling variation? how about those chimps that want to spend as little as possible to take advantage of game breaking rules... sure it could lead to a pay to win situation but i dont see how cheapening it expands the experiance, especially when you can now use a titan in normal games of 40k
Thats fine, what about the people (who are the majority) who spend as little as possible on normal stuff? and YOU may be contempt with the standard warhound being seen and used all the time, everywhere buy anyone wanting it. Personally id rather see a mix of variants and not bother about the price. My guard squad is 10 dollars cheaper than GW squads because i use another company for them. Am i all of a sudden abusing the system because for every 6 boxes i buy i can get a whole new box fom the savings? No of course not. (well i should hope so). Its just a really narrow GW only view that really ruins the game in a lot of ways. I am fairly sure you would be annoyed if someone spammed official titans for D weapons just as much. So get over it. Let people save money, help out a smaller buisness and have an actual model on the field.
Swastakowey wrote: Personally id rather see a mix of variants and not bother about the price.
Except this isn't a Warhound variant. The size and shape are wrong, the guns are completely wrong, and there's a melee option that doesn't exist for the Warhound. The main reason to use it over a real Warhound is the cheaper price, and that's the argument that leads to Apocalypse games full of random toys as proxies for all of the big Apocalypse units.
Swastakowey wrote: Personally id rather see a mix of variants and not bother about the price.
Except this isn't a Warhound variant. The size and shape are wrong, the guns are completely wrong, and there's a melee option that doesn't exist for the Warhound. The main reason to use it over a real Warhound is the cheaper price, and that's the argument that leads to Apocalypse games full of random toys as proxies for all of the big Apocalypse units.
The main reason for most people I know is that it's a better looking kit, made from plastic not inferior quality hard to clean, fix and assemble resin. Yes price is definitely a factor - I don't think it's the main factor. I'd prefer to run it with legit knight rules, but they don't exist. The closest legit rules available are warhound rules. That is why we choose warhound in general.
Swastakowey wrote: Personally id rather see a mix of variants and not bother about the price.
Except this isn't a Warhound variant. The size and shape are wrong, the guns are completely wrong, and there's a melee option that doesn't exist for the Warhound. The main reason to use it over a real Warhound is the cheaper price, and that's the argument that leads to Apocalypse games full of random toys as proxies for all of the big Apocalypse units.
Ok well whats wrong with that argument? Its not a random toy. Its a model. It is pretty much the same size. Doesnt look butt ugly. Costs far less. And are you a little special? Because im 100% certain weapons can easily be converted... and a variant doesnt need to be the same size and shape exact. It has the same basic shape: legs, a body, a head, and arms. Its like saying a small dog isnt a variant of a large dog. If someone moves the turret of a chimera to the back, widens the tracks and puts armored skirting around it, is it not able to be a chimera in your books? Got all the parts that make it a tank but the basic shape has been changed...
Swastakowey wrote: It has the same basic shape: legs, a body, a head, and arms.
And so does every other generic "giant robot" toy. Do you think you should be able to put a random anime mech on the table and call it a Warhound "variant"? Or a $10 robot toy from the local walmart?
Swastakowey wrote: It has the same basic shape: legs, a body, a head, and arms.
And so does every other generic "giant robot" toy. Do you think you should be able to put a random anime mech on the table and call it a Warhound "variant"? Or a $10 robot toy from the local walmart?
As long as it fits their theme, has had effort put into it and looks remotely like the part then yes, yes i would. Like i would with anything wargaming related. I am not gonna be a (insert nasty word here) to someone with brains because they spent less on a model that the expensive one does no differently.
Swastakowey wrote: As long as it fits their theme, has had effort put into it and looks remotely like the part then yes, yes i would.
I'm talking about an unconverted model, like the Leviathans people want to use as Warhounds.
I am not gonna be a (insert nasty word here) to someone with brains because they spent less on a model that the expensive one does no differently.
I guess you don't value the fluff of having appropriate models, or the appearance of the superior real models? TBH with that kind of attitude why play 40k? If the models are just game pieces and you value the rules/gameplay most then why not play a game with rules that don't suck?
Swastakowey wrote: As long as it fits their theme, has had effort put into it and looks remotely like the part then yes, yes i would.
I'm talking about an unconverted model, like the Leviathans people want to use as Warhounds.
I am not gonna be a (insert nasty word here) to someone with brains because they spent less on a model that the expensive one does no differently.
I guess you don't value the fluff of having appropriate models, or the appearance of the superior real models? TBH with that kind of attitude why play 40k? If the models are just game pieces and you value the rules/gameplay most then why not play a game with rules that don't suck?
The fluff has plenty of room for other titans that can act in the same role as the warhound. Plenty.
I play multiple rule sets, but i cant have giant war machines in other game sets, i cant have lots of things 40k has to offer. There ARE NO LIMITS in 40k, one of the few rule sets that isnt limited by history or strict lore and whatnot. So i play it as it was intended. A rule set where whatever the players feel like goes. If i wanna buy a box of army men to use as guard, i can, why is it a bad thing? And when i look at the 2 titans i dont see one as superior to the other, they both look and do the same thing (which is nothing by the way...) what is the difference. In function they are both the same. And the rules mostly suck when (insert nasty word here) like you are involved. Honestly the most bland, elitist minded player i have ever come across. There is no reason for it. Well my guardsmen arent converted then as they have nothing GW on them, i have done nothing to make them look GW official, but no one seems to complain? Why is it different for the leviathan? your lack of empathy towards those using a blatant warhound type/look model at a fraction of the cost is disgusting.
Swastakowey wrote: As long as it fits their theme, has had effort put into it and looks remotely like the part then yes, yes i would.
I'm talking about an unconverted model, like the Leviathans people want to use as Warhounds.
I am not gonna be a (insert nasty word here) to someone with brains because they spent less on a model that the expensive one does no differently.
I guess you don't value the fluff of having appropriate models, or the appearance of the superior real models? TBH with that kind of attitude why play 40k? If the models are just game pieces and you value the rules/gameplay most then why not play a game with rules that don't suck?
The fluff has plenty of room for other titans that can act in the same role as the warhound. Plenty.
I play multiple rule sets, but i cant have giant war machines in other game sets, i cant have lots of things 40k has to offer. There ARE NO LIMITS in 40k, one of the few rule sets that isnt limited by history or strict lore and whatnot. So i play it as it was intended. A rule set where whatever the players feel like goes. If i wanna buy a box of army men to use as guard, i can, why is it a bad thing? And when i look at the 2 titans i dont see one as superior to the other, they both look and do the same thing (which is nothing by the way...) what is the difference. In function they are both the same. And the rules mostly suck when (insert nasty word here) like you are involved. Honestly the most bland, elitist minded player i have ever come across. There is no reason for it. Well my guardsmen arent converted then as they have nothing GW on them, i have done nothing to make them look GW official, but no one seems to complain? Why is it different for the leviathan? your lack of empathy towards those using a blatant warhound type/look model at a fraction of the cost is disgusting.
1) Where is this fluff that the Imperium fields small Titans that are otherwise identical to Warhounds but not Warhounds?
2) It's funny that you would go on and on about the rules and converting models and stuff, but you're uncomfortable with simply writing your own rules to make it a knight titan. It's smaller than a Warhound, has a completely different style from a Warhound, and doesn't have weapons that look anything like the weapons a Warhound can take. It DOES, however, look almost exactly like a knight titan would (in my imagination), has weapons systems that the old knights could get (and since the knight no longer has an official model, the weapons are less of a big deal because NO ONE knows what some of them look like) and it's almost exactly the right size to be a knight titan.
Swastakowey wrote: [The fluff has plenty of room for other titans that can act in the same role as the warhound. Plenty.
Yes, but where is the fluff that suggests that the specific model(s) in question exist? All I see is some justification for why a cheap proxy should be allowed, not a legitimate effort to put the fluff first and bring an appropriate model.
There ARE NO LIMITS in 40k, one of the few rule sets that isnt limited by history or strict lore and whatnot.
Err, what? How exactly are limits about lore/history in other games absolute rules that you can't ignore and play whatever you want, but the lore/history of 40k are irrelevant details that nobody has to pay attention to?
If i wanna buy a box of army men to use as guard, i can, why is it a bad thing?
Because some of us enjoy the visual part of the game, and a box of cheap army men doesn't have the same appeal as a squad of well-painted miniatures from the setting we're playing in.
And when i look at the 2 titans i dont see one as superior to the other, they both look and do the same thing (which is nothing by the way...) what is the difference.
The difference, as I've said, is that the Leviathan doesn't look any more like a Warhound than any other random generic scifi mech. The only reason people got the idea that it's a good Warhound proxy is that it's cheap. If the Leviathan cost $500 you'd see interest in the "different style of titan" disappear almost entirely.
And the rules mostly suck when (insert nasty word here) like you are involved.
No, the rules just plain suck. The core rules are a bloated mess of ambiguous nonsense, the fundamental mechanics are awkward relics of GW's refusal to move beyond 40k's origins as a 1980s fantasy game, and army balance is virtually nonexistent. None of this depends on who you're playing the game with.
Why is it different for the leviathan?
It isn't. I don't really want to play against an IG army that uses unconverted models from another game just because they're cheaper.
your lack of empathy towards those using a blatant warhound type/look model at a fraction of the cost is disgusting.
I'm sorry, when did having a Warhound in your army become a mandatory part of the game? If you aren't going to bring a Warhound model then bring a different unit instead. I am not obligated to accept inappropriate proxy models just because they're cheap.
Swastakowey wrote: your lack of empathy towards those using a blatant warhound type/look model at a fraction of the cost is disgusting.
Your problem is that you are interested in his standpoint but dont let him have it. If hes not going to play against such a proxy ... fine ... find someone else. If your group is allowing it but his is not ... fine ... who cares?
People in my group are using it as a warhound stand-in. I give a rats ass about what other groups or people might think about it or if they ban it. If your play group disallows it ... bad luck - find someone else to play with. If not - fine - let other have their opinion without insulting them.
Swastakowey wrote: your lack of empathy towards those using a blatant warhound type/look model at a fraction of the cost is disgusting.
Your problem is that you are interested in his standpoint but dont let him have it. If hes not going to play against such a proxy ... fine ... find someone else. If your group is allowing it but his is not ... fine ... who cares?
People in my group are using it as a warhound stand-in. I give a rats ass about what other groups or people might think about it or if they ban it. If your play group disallows it ... bad luck - find someone else to play with. If not - fine - let other have their opinion without insulting them.
True but the whole ït doesnt happen here so why care" attitude doesnt solve problems. I will however let him think as he does (not that i can change it ) but i will insult people who are jerks about a simple game.
To the guy who said make rules, why make rules when there is a suitable working one that can work for the leviathan just fine that everyone accepts as legal?
And as for the visual appeal, if someone who knew nothing about the game saw a leviathan painted up and based on a board he would probably not say it ruins the look for him, why? Because its just like the warhound. A titanic, walking war machine.
To the guy who said make rules, why make rules when there is a suitable working one that can work for the leviathan just fine that everyone accepts as legal?
Because obviously not everyone accepts it working for the leviathan.
And as for the visual appeal, if someone who knew nothing about the game saw a leviathan painted up and based on a board he would probably not say it ruins the look for him, why? Because its just like the warhound. A titanic, walking war machine.
Anyways that is all.
1) And if someone who knows a lot about the game and the fluff saw a leviathan all painted up and based on a board he might say it ruins the look for him, why? Because it's smaller, wrongly-shaped, too sleek, and equipped with weapons that are completely unrecognizable.
2) The same argument could be used for Gundam models I bought at Walmart for $10 - "And as for the visual appeal, if someone who knew nothing about the game saw a leviathan Gundam painted up and based on a board he would probably not say it ruins the look for him, why? Because its just like the warhound. A titanic, walking war machine."
Swastakowey wrote: but i will insult people who are jerks about a simple game.
And then you will get some attention from the mods for violating the forum rules. Given your past rule-breaking discussion of illegal recasting I have to wonder how many warnings you already have.
To the guy who said make rules, why make rules when there is a suitable working one that can work for the leviathan just fine that everyone accepts as legal?
That's assuming it's suitable when it isn't. The Warhound rules aren't at all suitable for the Leviathan. The body doesn't look like a Warhound, the guns aren't anything like the Warhound's guns, and the Warhound doesn't have any rules for the Leviathan's melee options. Nobody would have any interest in using the Leviathan as a Warhound if it cost $500.
And as for the visual appeal, if someone who knew nothing about the game saw a leviathan painted up and based on a board he would probably not say it ruins the look for him, why? Because its just like the warhound. A titanic, walking war machine.
Why do we care about people who know nothing about the fluff of 40k? Obviously someone who doesn't know anything about the game isn't going to be able to tell the difference between a Leviathan and a 40k model, but that just means they don't care about the game at all. People who do care about the game enough to play it can tell that the Leviathan isn't a 40k model.
I guess you don't value the fluff of having appropriate models, or the appearance of the superior real models? TBH with that kind of attitude why play 40k? If the models are just game pieces and you value the rules/gameplay most then why not play a game with rules that don't suck?
I find a certain amount of irony in this given that in the Chaos BB thread you dismissed the fluff and denounced the idea purely for gameplay reasons.
What do you want people to prioritise, gameplay or fluff?
No, I wouldn't be fine with this. If I were to get my ass kicked by a super heavy, I would like the unit in question to actually look like that super heavy. It can be scratch built for all I care, as long as it is visually similar and has the same dimensions.
The leviathan looks nothing like a Warhound and doesn't have the same dimensions.
I'm just glad I play friendly games with the older rulesets. The Vehicle Design Rules were the perfect thing for building a Dreamforge 15mm Crusader to use as a Knight. It's really too bad material like that doesn't exist in 6th edition.
As any game I would play that involves Apocolypse level units would be purely for fun, I would much rather buy three of the $50 15mm Crusaders to use as homebrew knights than one of the big ones to use as a Warhound. They would look so much cooler operating on the table as a unit, even if the 4.5 inch height is a bit small for my tastes.
You make it a hobby, not FW or GW. I find it surprising that some feel they are losing something when their opponent has not shelled out hundreds to models.
It would be _better_ for everyone if alternative models were widely accepted.
You complain about the size of the models, I point you to the Riptides that have been modeled in grouching. Again, BRB cares about the size of your base, not how you model your figures. And even in that situation GW is modest about it, allowing you to use whatever you really want if it makes sense.
One more time, you lose nothing if your enemy proxies or uses an alternative model.
Naw wrote: You make it a hobby, not FW or GW. I find it surprising that some feel they are losing something when their opponent has not shelled out hundreds to models.
It would be _better_ for everyone if alternative models were widely accepted.
You complain about the size of the models, I point you to the Riptides that have been modeled in grouching. Again, BRB cares about the size of your base, not how you model your figures. And even in that situation GW is modest about it, allowing you to use whatever you really want if it makes sense.
One more time, you lose nothing if your enemy proxies or uses an alternative model.
Except for respect for them. I also feel disrespected.
Do you mind if I use my sister's former, now headless, barbie doll as a Titan, so long as guns are rubber-banded to her arms and she's painted in my army's colors?
And so does every other generic "giant robot" toy. Do you think you should be able to put a random anime mech on the table and call it a Warhound "variant"? Or a $10 robot toy from the local walmart?
If your opponent consents to it, yes. If not, then no. Why are people still arguing over this?
Stop getting your knickers in a twist over what other people who you'll never meet and play with want to do with their own armies of miniatures.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Do you mind if I use my sister's former, now headless, barbie doll as a Titan, so long as guns are rubber-banded to her arms and she's painted in my army's colors?
For gaks and giggles with a friend, yeah I'd consent to it. If I was in a serious mood and wanted a sensible game then no.
Thats the beauty of playing a game, on your own terms without interference from an 'authority' like GW. You can do whatever you like with your opponents consent and cooperation. You don't like the idea? Thats fine, just say no and let the person find a different opponent who will agree to it.
I would just like to point out that Emperors, Warlords, Reavers, and Warhounds are classes of Titans, not limited to one specific example of each. Imperators and Warmongers are both types of Emperor-class Titans. Of the Warlords, we have MkI Mars-pattern "beetle-backs", MkII's (looks almost "Lucius"), and MkIII's. Of the Reavers we have Goths, Huns, Mars, and Lucius. Of the Warhounds, we have Mars, Lucius, and the original MkI's.
Yet, Warhounds are in a classification of Titans called "Scout" or "Light" titan that Knight-class titans also belong to. Both Reavers and Warlords are classified as "Battle Titans".
Within all that background fluff, at no point are we ever informed that the examples we currently have are the only types of Titans in existence in 40k. Specifically, we are told that other classes, patterns and types of Titans exist, from single crew Knights to city-sized Emperors. A more humanoid light Titan that fits somewhere between a Knight and a Warhound that carries the same weaponry as a Warhound and fills the same role as a Warhound does have its place in 40k.
Personally, I'd use a Leviathan as a Hun-class Reaver (2 arm weapons, no carapace weapon, same stats as a Warhound).
jeffersonian000 wrote: I would just like to point out that Emperors, Warlords, Reavers, and Warhounds are classes of Titans, not limited to one specific example of each. Imperators and Warmongers are both types of Emperor-class Titans. Of the Warlords, we have MkI Mars-pattern "beetle-backs", MkII's (looks almost "Lucius"), and MkIII's. Of the Reavers we have Goths, Huns, Mars, and Lucius. Of the Warhounds, we have Mars, Lucius, and the original MkI's.
Yet, Warhounds are in a classification of Titans called "Scout" or "Light" titan that Knight-class titans also belong to. Both Reavers and Warlords are classified as "Battle Titans".
Within all that background fluff, at no point are we ever informed that the examples we currently have are the only types of Titans in existence in 40k. Specifically, we are told that other classes, patterns and types of Titans exist, from single crew Knights to city-sized Emperors. A more humanoid light Titan that fits somewhere between a Knight and a Warhound that carries the same weaponry as a Warhound and fills the same role as a Warhound does have its place in 40k.
Personally, I'd use a Leviathan as a Hun-class Reaver (2 arm weapons, no carapace weapon, same stats as a Warhound).
SJ
Seems reasonable. I doubt that there are city-sized Emperors, though. Ridiculously humongous, reaching beyond the clouds, for sure. But probably not city-sized.
I sat here and read all 8 agonizing pages of this thread. It was rather entertaining. hehehe I'm on the side of "Leviathan = Warhound", but I am biased because I'm purchasing a Leviathan Mortis to convert into a Khorne Lord of skulls. The "official" GW model is atrocious at best. I would never spend my hard earned cash on that ridiculous model. I love the "chaosy" look of the Mortis model. I'm going to add the left handed vulcan cannon as a substitute for the Hades gatling cannon, mount the included scythe onto the back of the right claw hand (Great cleaver of Khorne), and then mount some type of nasty looking cannon to symbolize Gorestorm cannon. I don't play very many games, due to my location, but I would find it extremely unlikely that I would be denied a game using my "proxy" other than the "official" GW abortion. I'm a decent kit-basher as well as a pretty good painter (pics in gallery), so it should turn out pretty awesome. Just my .02
Yikes...is this even an issue. At my FLGS, I've seen plenty of titans, probably 90% scratch built or "off-brand" models, and I've yet to hear a single complaint.
jasper76 wrote: Yikes...is this even an issue. At my FLGS, I've seen plenty of titans, probably 90% scratch built or "off-brand" models, and I've yet to hear a single complaint.
There's a pretty distinct difference between 'complaints/not playing against it' and just disliking it. Personally, I dislike the idea of that model as a warhound stand in. I'd still play it, but if I were discussing with a friend over a brew post game, I'd probably point out I'd *personally* prefer that he bulk it out or mod it in some way to resemble more closely the warhound from FW or armorcast.
There's always the option to piss everyone off all in one basket, by using a non-GW model, AND by using a homemade paper model that "doesn't cost anything" so you are "that poor guy" as well.
AegisGrimm wrote: There's always the option to piss everyone off all in one basket, by using a non-GW model, AND by using a homemade paper model that "doesn't cost anything" so you are "that poor guy" as well.
But you can't do that! because it is not the overprized GW/Forge world one!
It seems that Peregrine is a purist or playing the Devils advocate?, i don't care i use anything i can get my hands on call it a Anime Mecha Warhound Pattern from the Forge world Japanus 7. Deal with it!
I have a question for Peregrine: I'm currently using the FW Deamon prince as a proxy for Be'lakor, of course it will be beautifully painted and based, but the dimensions on the FW prince are different than that of the GW Be'lakor model as well as the wargear being different. Would you have an issue playing against my army? If so, why?
sub-zero wrote: I have a question for Peregrine: I'm currently using the FW Deamon prince as a proxy for Be'lakor, of course it will be beautifully painted and based, but the dimensions on the FW prince are different than that of the GW Be'lakor model as well as the wargear being different. Would you have an issue playing against my army? If so, why?
Because you are a horrific cheater akin to the guy who sneaks in an extra Revenant in his Ork army while other player is looking away.
sub-zero wrote: I have a question for Peregrine: I'm currently using the FW Deamon prince as a proxy for Be'lakor, of course it will be beautifully painted and based, but the dimensions on the FW prince are different than that of the GW Be'lakor model as well as the wargear being different. Would you have an issue playing against my army? If so, why?
No, I wouldn't really like that. The different shape interferes with TLOS, and non-WYSIWYG equipment is kind of annoying. Why can't you either use the model's actual rules or convert it to follow the character's rules?
sub-zero wrote: I have a question for Peregrine: I'm currently using the FW Deamon prince as a proxy for Be'lakor, of course it will be beautifully painted and based, but the dimensions on the FW prince are different than that of the GW Be'lakor model as well as the wargear being different. Would you have an issue playing against my army? If so, why?
No, I wouldn't really like that. The different shape interferes with TLOS, and non-WYSIWYG equipment is kind of annoying. Why can't you either use the model's actual rules or convert it to follow the character's rules?
While I'm pretty laid back and wouldn't have a problem playing either way, personally I'm more inclined to make house rules for my titan as a Paladin knight titan(or some Chaos equivalent) , simply because when I look at it, it doesn't look like a Warhound to me. But I guess it might be harder to find people willing to play against a converted titan with house rules than a converted titan using official rules.
Swastakowey wrote: Personally id rather see a mix of variants and not bother about the price.
Except this isn't a Warhound variant. The size and shape are wrong, the guns are completely wrong, and there's a melee option that doesn't exist for the Warhound. The main reason to use it over a real Warhound is the cheaper price, and that's the argument that leads to Apocalypse games full of random toys as proxies for all of the big Apocalypse units.
Ok well whats wrong with that argument? Its not a random toy. Its a model. It is pretty much the same size. Doesnt look butt ugly. Costs far less. And are you a little special? Because im 100% certain weapons can easily be converted... and a variant doesnt need to be the same size and shape exact. It has the same basic shape: legs, a body, a head, and arms. Its like saying a small dog isnt a variant of a large dog. If someone moves the turret of a chimera to the back, widens the tracks and puts armored skirting around it, is it not able to be a chimera in your books? Got all the parts that make it a tank but the basic shape has been changed...
This ^
I would totally allow it, it looks awesome. Of course it would be nice if he tried to make it a bit taller, and maybe converted the weapons a bit - but hey, most people don't know what they look like anyway.
My friends and I would totally be fine with it, but then again, we are all very laid back easy going people who like to have fun.
sub-zero wrote: I have a question for Peregrine: I'm currently using the FW Deamon prince as a proxy for Be'lakor, of course it will be beautifully painted and based, but the dimensions on the FW prince are different than that of the GW Be'lakor model as well as the wargear being different. Would you have an issue playing against my army? If so, why?
No, I wouldn't really like that. The different shape interferes with TLOS, and non-WYSIWYG equipment is kind of annoying. Why can't you either use the model's actual rules or convert it to follow the character's rules?
Actually the FW Deamon prince is taller than the GW Be'lakor model, so the TLoS advantage would go to my opponent, not myself. As for the wargear, the GW Be'lakor wields a sword where the FW Deamon prince wields an axe. Wouldn't either one of those edged weapons have the same effect when cleaving through power armor? Furthermore, Be'lakor's "weapon" is an etherblade and quoting the GW dataslate "it's ghostly form in eternal transience between shape and shadow; solidity and silhouette." Meaning that his "weapon" can take on any form or shape that he wishes, as in a huge axe. Would you like to argue your point further? I'm having a hard time trying to figure out if your being sincere in your stance or just merely trolling for the sake of trolling.
Would you like to argue your point further? I'm having a hard time trying to figure out if your being sincere in your stance or just merely trolling for the sake of trolling.
His truths are self evident, why bother egging him to further off topic posts? He says it is so, so it is. You should just leave this one as it lies. I have the model of which you speak. I think your larger problem is the wings for him to fly. What are you going to use for wings that would be as finely detailed as the DP model?
Again, back to OT, with the inclusion of FW to the list of allowable Super Heavies, the idea of the cheaper titan is going to be rough. I plan on setting up a game or two with mine once I've built and painted it. Just going to run it with the Vulcan and the Plasma Blast in Escalation.. save the D for Apoc.
Would you like to argue your point further? I'm having a hard time trying to figure out if your being sincere in your stance or just merely trolling for the sake of trolling.
His truths are self evident, why bother egging him to further off topic posts? He says it is so, so it is. You should just leave this one as it lies. I have the model of which you speak. I think your larger problem is the wings for him to fly. What are you going to use for wings that would be as finely detailed as the DP model?
Again, back to OT, with the inclusion of FW to the list of allowable Super Heavies, the idea of the cheaper titan is going to be rough. I plan on setting up a game or two with mine once I've built and painted it. Just going to run it with the Vulcan and the Plasma Blast in Escalation.. save the D for Apoc.
He doesn't need "physical" wings, he's a psyker, he can just levitate himself to where he needs to be.
sub-zero wrote: Actually the FW Deamon prince is taller than the GW Be'lakor model, so the TLoS advantage would go to my opponent, not myself.
Not necessarily. A taller model is easier to see, but also has an easier time seeing over cover.
As for the wargear, the GW Be'lakor wields a sword where the FW Deamon prince wields an axe. Wouldn't either one of those edged weapons have the same effect when cleaving through power armor? Furthermore, Be'lakor's "weapon" is an etherblade and quoting the GW dataslate "it's ghostly form in eternal transience between shape and shadow; solidity and silhouette." Meaning that his "weapon" can take on any form or shape that he wishes, as in a huge axe.
Since I don't feel like buying garbage I haven't read the character's rules. I was responding based on your claim that the model's equipment wasn't WYSIWYG. You can't just turn around and say "surprise, it's actually WYSIWYG and you're trolling".
sub-zero wrote: He doesn't need "physical" wings, he's a psyker, he can just levitate himself to where he needs to be.
Oh, ok. So it isn't WYSIWYG. If the model doesn't match the rules (no wings, wrong weapon, etc) then why can't you just use the rules that do match the model? Why do you need to give it different rules?
sub-zero wrote: Very nice!!! Those Leviathan models just scream 40K to me!
Yonan wrote: That's great Blade, awesome weathering on the paintjob.
Thank you for the compliments and I'll try to post some more pics as it progresses. To me it looks like a heavy knight class titan or maybe a smaller version of a Reaver Hun class titan. I have some of the arms on the way and should have them in a few days. I'm thinking my best bet is to call it some type of heavy knight titan and using a slightly modified (or un-modified if that is more acceptable) War hound datasheet.
These two were at the same stage as the other, but just in case anyone wanted to see a few more views.
Swastakowey wrote: As long as it fits their theme, has had effort put into it and looks remotely like the part then yes, yes i would.
2) It's funny that you would go on and on about the rules and converting models and stuff, but you're uncomfortable with simply writing your own rules to make it a knight titan. It's smaller than a Warhound, has a completely different style from a Warhound, and doesn't have weapons that look anything like the weapons a Warhound can take. It DOES, however, look almost exactly like a knight titan would (in my imagination), has weapons systems that the old knights could get (and since the knight no longer has an official model, the weapons are less of a big deal because NO ONE knows what some of them look like) and it's almost exactly the right size to be a knight titan.
No, It's actually much closer to a Warhound titan in size than a knight. As I have all ready shown in comparison pictures the Leviathan is as tall as an Armorcast Warhound, and has more bulk. The only "official" 40k scale knight ever produced is also pictured, and it is MUCH smaller than an Armorcast Warhound.
Some more pictures of my slightly more Chaosy Knight Titan:
(sorry my camera kind of sucks)
The things on his shoulders are supposed to be removable Void shields (magnetized) in case anyone was wondering
Swastakowey wrote: As long as it fits their theme, has had effort put into it and looks remotely like the part then yes, yes i would.
I'm talking about an unconverted model, like the Leviathans people want to use as Warhounds.
I am not gonna be a (insert nasty word here) to someone with brains because they spent less on a model that the expensive one does no differently.
I guess you don't value the fluff of having appropriate models, or the appearance of the superior real models? TBH with that kind of attitude why play 40k? If the models are just game pieces and you value the rules/gameplay most then why not play a game with rules that don't suck?
I'm not looking to get the leviathan mortis for my IW because it's cheaper. I can afford the warhound and I have never ever gone out of my way to be cheaper on a conversion build. I honestly dislike the warhound kit. It's poorly made and ugly and it's overall look doesn't fit my army on top of the fact that every single model in my army is highly converted and using that chunk of misshapen resin as a basis for conversion would be a lot of work for not much pay off. I'm planning to use official FW weapons, bulking up the top section, lengthening the legs, maybe bigger feet, bringing the head out a little bit, and using tons and tons of chaos bits. I haven't gotten to making it yet but does that sound like adequate level of conversion to be more faithful to the (horrid) original? Feel free to take a peek at my gallery to see my expensive conversions. Replacement cost of the defilers alone would be over $200. I just made an obliterator squad from the centurion kit that cost easily $120 to make. So like I said it's not an issue of cost for me it's that I don't think the warhiound kit is worth the effort of spending 40hrs fixing before I can even think about the crap load of work converting a big ass hunk of resin is gonna be.
sing your life wrote: I wouldn't allow it. It's about 25% smaller and the wrong shape compared to the real warhound.
Titans should something you put a huge amount of money, effort and love into to make something that looks amazing on the Tabletop
I think the Dream Forge Leviathan looks amazing. Just look at Bladeiai's post. That clearly took a lot of effort and love.And the Leviathan is still expensive, around $120 IIRC for the larger version.
Though it would be more appropriate for a Knight Titan than a Warhound. When this thread was started, Gw hadn't yet released the rules for the Imperial Knight Titan. Dreamforges Titan is more expensive than GW's too.
I have never had an issue getting either of mine into a game as anything I wanted to play them as, but except for rare occasion I have always used them as knights, as that is what I wanted them to be from the get go.
This is my second knight in case anyone wanted to see a Mortis version
While that was a massive thread necro, I'm gonna reply anyways:
I own a DF leviathan for use as a warhound. He's mounted on a 2/3" high piece of scenery, making his total height about 11". Also, when someone has a problem, I just put out the arms at 90 degrees to compensate for any difference in width.
In fact, I'd forbid someone from using it as a knight before I'd forbid someone from using it as a warhound: it's closer in size to the latter, and people were using it as warhounds before the knight rules were released.
I've only ever had one person complain about my use of it as a warhound, "coincidentally" the person who owns an actual warhound. While I understand his problems, I firmly disagree.
bladeiai wrote: I have never had an issue getting either of mine into a game as anything I wanted to play them as, but except for rare occasion I have always used them as knights, as that is what I wanted them to be from the get go.
This is my second knight in case anyone wanted to see a Mortis version
Wow. That looks boring as hell. I'd walk out on that game.
Also, this model IS sexy and was fun as hell to paint and model. People that say otherwise have different opinions than I do.
hehe i think i have something similar im just not sure about the mars pattern turbolaser, needs a little chaosification otherwise very nice
Edit: realising i posted in here a while back i have a new thing to ask
how do these models size up next to the new Imperial Knights?
also the bulk on the WH is much more than that of the dreamforge model, but if you want to put the effort in to make it the same sizes then sure go ahead. on the it shouldnt be allowed for the spammy cheapness, well.... if your taking one and doing the extra work that shouldnt be too much of a problem, people can and do understand you cant afford the real thing but put the effort in and 90% of the time you will get away with it. now if your taking 3 or more of them as warhounds cos its cheaper and you can spam it. NO.. thats unfair
The Khornemower is definitely a horrible model, but giving it legs is so much better than leaving it with those ridiculous tracks. *If* I were to do it (I won't) I'd try to remove the ahhh... torso cannon, and shoulder or wrist mount it maybe.
![[Disk]](/dakkaforum/templates/default/images/icon_disk.gif){kind=icon}
