Eihnlazer wrote: Incubi and Drahzar trade up so hard on our bikes they are actually a bad choice. So does DT liquifiers for that matter, and dark lances.
Bikes are almost useless against Drukari......
Termies are better just because they can ignore AP1 and 2, meaning only 6's to wound with the incubi and drahzar himself scare them.
So I've got some bad news for you. Incubi are AP-3, not -2. The Klavex is -2 when he does the extra attacks profile, but if he uses the single blade profile he's AP-3. All his Incubi buddies with him in the squad are ALSO, always, AP-3.
Yeah, getting charged by incubi is bad...best to shoot them, if you can crack open their transports.
Imo the best way to deal with them in melee is to use tanglefoot grenade hoping that you roll high enough
Eihnlazer wrote: Incubi and Drahzar trade up so hard on our bikes they are actually a bad choice. So does DT liquifiers for that matter, and dark lances.
Bikes are almost useless against Drukari......
Termies are better just because they can ignore AP1 and 2, meaning only 6's to wound with the incubi and drahzar himself scare them.
I mean, it's already been established that Bikes are the weakest unit in the codex (in terms of survivability) for the points. They don't have a 3++ invul, T6 is basically the same as T5 for most situations, Vexillas can't keep up with them, they have no special rules that make them tougher and you have to pay CP to put them in deepstrike. Easily the least survivable unit in the codex for the points, with or without broken DEldar.
What does that say about our faction then? Our "lease survivable" unit is T6 4 wounds, with a 2+4++6+++. for about 90 points, that can't be our Worst unit. I would say for the cost, our LRs are worse.
LR is obviously the worst because LRs are terrible no matter what book they are in. The codex Contemptor is also junk, largely because the FW variants are just so much better that you'd never, ever take one. There's some bad FW stuff too.
Other than that, the bikes do get my vote for worst unit in the actual codex that's a real unit and not just a meme. They need a ton of work, right now they are painfully bad for the points.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: What does that say about our faction then? Our "lease survivable" unit is T6 4 wounds, with a 2+4++6+++. for about 90 points, that can't be our Worst unit. I would say for the cost, our LRs are worse.
Like Yuki said, our least survivable unit that isn't a complete joke of a unit.
It's a unit that on paper looks really tough but in reality suffers heavily from the direction 9th ed firepower is heading in: AP across the board on almost every unit, D2 weapons becoming common place and the continued problem that T6 is a really weird toughness.
Plus the fact that AT weapons now have basically a minimum of 4D with Cognis Las and several other things that basically oneshot a bike, ripping 85 points of your list with a single wound.
Compare that to a DE Raider and yes... The jetbikes look pitiful (albeit that is hardly a fair comparison as raiders are broken at that price).
Can we PLEASE stop comparing our units and faction to the most easily broken codex to drop in 40k since 7th ed GK? Yes, our bikes suck compared to DE, but that's hardly a fitting argument is it? Do we really expect GW to catapult us into 9th with a 45ppm bike squad? Or 38 ppm terminators?
Bikes obviously won't be 45 points, but if they stay their current anemic, problematic selves, they probably do need to be more like 65, rather than the silly 85 they currently cost. But I'd rather they just made them worth 85 instead.
Yes, I know. Thats why I added the sentence in parenthesis.
Yet the original argument still stands.
Its a coinflip if you loose 85pts to a single wound. That should simply not be possible. Terminators suffer the same, but they have different abilities that make it somewhat less severe.
If GW does intend on cleaning up its plastic side of the house, they need to give us something reflecting the current direction the game "Appears" to be taking. We might as well be 45 ppm now because we were meant to be hard to kill, but simply aren't now.
One of two things would need to happen for us to be semi-relevant.
1. Drukhari need to get nerfed, hard.
OR
2. We need a massive points re-evaluation.
I don't think giving us giant special rules that only affect us is actually making the game better (ad mech) it's only advancing power creep.
I have not played since last fall, has the situation with the ares gun ship and its base been resolved?
I think custodes need better profiles +1 wound across the board or army wide Arcane Genetic Alchemy some thing that makes custodes tougher that blade guard and death wing knights and we need better melee weapons. If i compare custodes with death wing knights its just ridiculous how much better the DA rules are.
I'm slowly getting back into my custodes as lockdown eases up, looking forward to dusting them off!
I know our bikers are feeling worse for wear, but how are our Dreadnoughts doing (I own a spear and sword and shield dread) and are Sagg guard + Cordia's still worth using? the D2 upgrade on their bolter section looks super tasty
So the FAQ on large models has come out and did fix the Ares. However some places are still now allowing it to do anything on turn 1 on the Dawn of War (long edge's) type deployment maps. I just recently participated in the Dallas Open and after a player complained in round 2, I was told I would have to just suck it up for round 3 (all 3 dawn of war deployments were in day 1).
I ended up just deep striking it in game 3 (was up against a harlequin player) and that worked just fine.
The dreads are all working good. They are a bit more pricey than marine dreads and weaker at range, but are also alot more durable and very competitive in melee.
Gir Spirit Bane wrote: I'm slowly getting back into my custodes as lockdown eases up, looking forward to dusting them off!
I know our bikers are feeling worse for wear, but how are our Dreadnoughts doing (I own a spear and sword and shield dread) and are Sagg guard + Cordia's still worth using? the D2 upgrade on their bolter section looks super tasty
Also as a quick idea, maybe instead of -1 damage it'll be half damage rounding up (or hell even possibly DOWN to a min of 1 considering how lethal the game is and how expensive even our cheapest model is)?
Gir Spirit Bane wrote: I'm slowly getting back into my custodes as lockdown eases up, looking forward to dusting them off!
I know our bikers are feeling worse for wear, but how are our Dreadnoughts doing (I own a spear and sword and shield dread) and are Sagg guard + Cordia's still worth using? the D2 upgrade on their bolter section looks super tasty
Our dreads are awesome and saggitarum guard with misericordia is still a strong option, especially with Trajann rerolls.
The telemon is arguably the strongest and toughest dreadnought in the game. The achillus is great in both shooting and melee and the galatus is a brick wall that hits you back.
Edit: my point being that they are all very playable, even in multiples. John Lennon recently piloted a list with 2 telemons and 3 galatus dreads and souped in imperial guard for objective secured bodies.
John Lennon recently piloted a list with 2 telemons and 3 galatus dreads and souped in imperial guard for objective secured bodies.
I....wut? did I miss some rather amazing and wonderful news? Has covid created Zombies of famous people in the old country?
He's been using it on the Art of War stream and actually did pretty well in their in-house RTT against his fellow Art of War teammates. I believe the Guard had Scions and Manticores for fire support? Telemons were gun+melee loadout. He did not put Eternal Penitent on anyone if I remember correctly.
Just played my first game with pure Stodes last night, for 9th. Against a 1k sons army. I never realized how much we depend on pre-game CP usage.
Maybe that's something that could be baked into our chapter? "Vigilants of the Golden Throne" get always on Auspex scan, and Victor of the blood games for all Wardens.
"Defenders of His Will" chapter - Each SC has the ability to Deny the witch as a psyker?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Just played my first game with pure Stodes last night, for 9th. Against a 1k sons army. I never realized how much we depend on pre-game CP usage.
Maybe that's something that could be baked into our chapter? "Vigilants of the Golden Throne" get always on Auspex scan, and Victor of the blood games for all Wardens.
"Defenders of His Will" chapter - Each SC has the ability to Deny the witch as a psyker?
What did you use use on pre-game strats? The only thing I use nowadays is the captain commander strat and eternal penitent....i rarely ever use victor of the blood games for example.
Also, how'd the game go?
Lennon not using eternal penitent on his dreads could have been because of the CP cost of using a Vanguard and the sheer number of dreadnoughts. Eternal penitent is great, but paying for each dreadnought when you bring 5 of them is very, very steep.
Game went about as expected, I got ROFLstomped, I gave him the wounds upgrade because it was BS they don't have it yet, and he went almost full Rubrics and DPs.
Granted I am not a "Great" player, but I should have performed better. He just rolled hot on smites, and each one was basically a dead Custodian. My bikes did better work than my Shields, and Trajann fell defending my back field against a DP.
I just think we need more Auto-baked in CP strats. It's silly that we can't get Bolter Discipline on our bikes. Granted that would be hella bonkers, but we need to be bonkers for the cost per model.
I was more talking about if it was THE John Lennon, the Beatle, not some 40k player. My bad for crappy sarcasm.
So looking forward at the Lonestar Open, I think im going to not bring the shadowkeepers list i did at the Dallas open.
The list is fine, and i've gotten competent at piloting it, but adjusting for the meta I've decided to run something different.
Assuming I get my Venetari in the mail in time to get them painted, I plan on running Emissaries Imperatus battalion.
Trajann, Captain Unkillable on a bike
2 squads of 4x sword and board
1 squad of saggitarum/w mis
5 venetari
triple autocannon caladius
The decision to go back to triple autocannon tanks is mostly due to the drukari and still majority marine meta.
Simply stated, they shred both marines and drukari like nobodies business. I do hamstring myself against knights and Death guard, but tbh, I can probably just outscore the knights and Death guard are not gonna be out en masse with the drukari rampaging around.
Given the range on the AC Caladius, and the propensity for camping in 9th, I'm surprise we don't see those in more lists? They are a great TAC unit as opposed to the storm cannon variant which is more of a dedicated heavy AT platform.
Damage output is basically the same if the Telemon is firing twice and you are just so much harder to kill, the only reason you'd take the grav tanks over the Telemon is either for the speed (which isn't necessary if you're castling up with Vexillas and Trajann) or you're running three and you need the extra 105pts for something.
Thing is, I think a tank can survive long enough to earn it's points and more, whereas the Telemon has a giant flashing neon sign that says "PRIORITY THREAT HERE"
I'm not the best with Telemons, mine always get shot off the table rather quickly. No one ever bothers with my tank though.
Yeah, the Caladius probably needs to go down to around 200 points to be competitive with the Telemon, maybe even 190.
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Thing is, I think a tank can survive long enough to earn it's points and more, whereas the Telemon has a giant flashing neon sign that says "PRIORITY THREAT HERE"
I'm not the best with Telemons, mine always get shot off the table rather quickly. No one ever bothers with my tank though.
That seems like really weird decision-making by your opponent, the tank is far easier to remove and has the same shooting output, it would make way more sense to remove the tank than the Telemon. And honestly, there's basically nothing you don't want shooting the Telemon as opposed to literally anything else in your army. If it's soaking up fire, it's doing it's job, short of maybe stuff like letting it get ambushed by multiple squads of retributors. The biggest threat to a dual-gun Telemon is just getting tied up in combat with something it doesn't want to shoot at.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Thing is, I think a tank can survive long enough to earn it's points and more, whereas the Telemon has a giant flashing neon sign that says "PRIORITY THREAT HERE"
I'm not the best with Telemons, mine always get shot off the table rather quickly. No one ever bothers with my tank though.
Time spent shooting your Telemon is time not spent shooting bikes, I'd take that deal any day.
Right, but very often, my Telemon is the only thing that can legitimately threaten the things shooting it in the first place (T8 14+W) I just hate spending 300 points on it and watching it eat dirt on the 2nd turn.
I love the telemon, but its so darn slow that most opponents can just outmanuver it.
You really need to have a plan with it for it to be useful.
The tanks however, are just so much easier to use. Their mobility makes them easier to hide turn 1 and still contribute to the game. They do go down pretty easy to Multi-melta's and dark lances though.
My main reason for using them is just for more damage output. I focused on defence with the shadowkeepers list and that works fine, but doesnt have enough output for the current meta. I dont know if its a good idea, but I figure its worth a try.
Eihnlazer wrote: I love the telemon, but its so darn slow that most opponents can just outmanuver it.
You really need to have a plan with it for it to be useful.
The tanks however, are just so much easier to use. Their mobility makes them easier to hide turn 1 and still contribute to the game. They do go down pretty easy to Multi-melta's and dark lances though.
My main reason for using them is just for more damage output. I focused on defence with the shadowkeepers list and that works fine, but doesnt have enough output for the current meta. I dont know if its a good idea, but I figure its worth a try.
Is deepstriking a telemon still a thing people do successfully in a competitive setting? Or is starting it on the board and slogging it towards the midfield the thing to do if you were to bring a telemon.
Its offensive power isn't all that high compared to its defense so it's not great for DSIMO, best role is to start on the table but hidden then march it up the table, preferably while exposing it to just enough of your opponent's army that he is tempted into shooting it, but not enough that he can actually destroy or seriously degrade it.
yukishiro1 wrote: Its offensive power isn't all that high compared to its defense so it's not great for DSIMO, best role is to start on the table but hidden then march it up the table, preferably while exposing it to just enough of your opponent's army that he is tempted into shooting it, but not enough that he can actually destroy or seriously degrade it.
I don't claim to be very knowledgeable in these things, but the telemons dmg output in melee is second only to the achillus, is it not? With one fist and eternal penitent, that's 6 attacks at S: a bazillion and flat 4 dmg. When you add the shooting weapons into that equation, it at least seems very potent.
Isnt the bigger problem getting it past deepstrike screens? If you were to play it that way. Teleport Homer is a thing that can bypass screens, but it's a very telegraphed trick and to me at least it seems like nobody is bringing a vexillus anymore.
yukishiro1 wrote: Its offensive power isn't all that high compared to its defense so it's not great for DSIMO, best role is to start on the table but hidden then march it up the table, preferably while exposing it to just enough of your opponent's army that he is tempted into shooting it, but not enough that he can actually destroy or seriously degrade it.
I don't claim to be very knowledgeable in these things, but the telemons dmg output in melee is second only to the achillus, is it not? With one fist and eternal penitent, that's 6 attacks at S: a bazillion and flat 4 dmg. When you add the shooting weapons into that equation, it at least seems very potent.
Isnt the bigger problem getting it past deepstrike screens? If you were to play it that way. Teleport Homer is a thing that can bypass screens, but it's a very telegraphed trick and to me at least it seems like nobody is bringing a vexillus anymore.
Compared to the rest of the army the offensive power is high, but it's overall offensive power in the context of the game is low. So yeah, if you want Custodes damage melee+gun is a good damage mix. We're just a low damage army in general though.
yukishiro1 wrote: Its offensive power isn't all that high compared to its defense so it's not great for DSIMO, best role is to start on the table but hidden then march it up the table, preferably while exposing it to just enough of your opponent's army that he is tempted into shooting it, but not enough that he can actually destroy or seriously degrade it.
I don't claim to be very knowledgeable in these things, but the telemons dmg output in melee is second only to the achillus, is it not? With one fist and eternal penitent, that's 6 attacks at S: a bazillion and flat 4 dmg. When you add the shooting weapons into that equation, it at least seems very potent.
Isnt the bigger problem getting it past deepstrike screens? If you were to play it that way. Teleport Homer is a thing that can bypass screens, but it's a very telegraphed trick and to me at least it seems like nobody is bringing a vexillus anymore.
Compared to the rest of the army the offensive power is high, but it's overall offensive power in the context of the game is low. So yeah, if you want Custodes damage melee+gun is a good damage mix. We're just a low damage army in general though.
Says something about the state of the game doesn't it? We've apparently entered an age of powercreep where the DMG output of even someting like the mighty telemon just seems OK compared to the rest of the game. At least he's still built like a brick gak-house....how many dark lances does it take to reliably kill a telemon? I'm sure someone has already done the math on that.
Edit: another thing I'm really curious about: with the prevalence of really strong anti tank weapons like dark lances, are we going to see a comeback of the vexillus praetor with vexilla magnifica? Against these low volume, high quality weapons, the -1 to hit seems to be valuable again.
Tiberias wrote: Says something about the state of the game doesn't it? We've apparently entered an age of powercreep where the DMG output of even someting like the mighty telemon just seems OK compared to the rest of the game. At least he's still built like a brick gak-house....how many dark lances does it take to reliably kill a telemon? I'm sure someone has already done the math on that.
Edit: another thing I'm really curious about: with the prevalence of really strong anti tank weapons like dark lances, are we going to see a comeback of the vexillus praetor with vexilla magnifica? Against these low volume, high quality weapons, the -1 to hit seems to be valuable again.
25 dark lances to take down the Telemon on his own, 34 dark lances if he has -1 to hit, 50 dark lances if he also has the -1 strength strat.
Also, as someone who has played and beaten the new Dark Elder (3000pts game though), I can say -1 to hit really shut down all his heavy ranged firepower. But he did wiff a hell of a lot that game: I killed 5 incubai in overwatch with a grav tank, his Archaon and Drazar failed point blank charges, his bombers did hardly any damage at all with their mortal wound bombs and as I said his ranged anti-tank mostly wiffed. Though at the same time I didn't kill any of his backline stuff, took 3 turns to kill his bombers, my achilles didn't hit at all with his ranged shots and my super up bike captain got insta-popped by his succubus.
yukishiro1 wrote: Its offensive power isn't all that high compared to its defense so it's not great for DSIMO, best role is to start on the table but hidden then march it up the table, preferably while exposing it to just enough of your opponent's army that he is tempted into shooting it, but not enough that he can actually destroy or seriously degrade it.
I don't claim to be very knowledgeable in these things, but the telemons dmg output in melee is second only to the achillus, is it not? With one fist and eternal penitent, that's 6 attacks at S: a bazillion and flat 4 dmg. When you add the shooting weapons into that equation, it at least seems very potent.
Isnt the bigger problem getting it past deepstrike screens? If you were to play it that way. Teleport Homer is a thing that can bypass screens, but it's a very telegraphed trick and to me at least it seems like nobody is bringing a vexillus anymore.
Compared to the rest of the army the offensive power is high, but it's overall offensive power in the context of the game is low. So yeah, if you want Custodes damage melee+gun is a good damage mix. We're just a low damage army in general though.
Says something about the state of the game doesn't it? We've apparently entered an age of powercreep where the DMG output of even someting like the mighty telemon just seems OK compared to the rest of the game. At least he's still built like a brick gak-house....how many dark lances does it take to reliably kill a telemon? I'm sure someone has already done the math on that.
Edit: another thing I'm really curious about: with the prevalence of really strong anti tank weapons like dark lances, are we going to see a comeback of the vexillus praetor with vexilla magnifica? Against these low volume, high quality weapons, the -1 to hit seems to be valuable again.
The -1 to Hit is nice but most competitive Raiders are run as Black Heart, which gets a free re-roll to Hit per unit once per turn. So each Raider gets to re-roll its shot. Against a normal Telemon, it takes 22 Black Heart Dark Lances (most competitive lists only bring 6 Raiders) to kill a Telemon. With the Magnifica it's 26. So he's in pretty good shape.
And yeah, it says a lot that the Telemon's damage is just 'O.K.'. The main problem is the low number of attacks. Big stuff can survive the 1-3 wounds he's going to get through and littler stuff is getting extra rules like Transhuman to just ruin his statistical average. The DEldar Succubus of Crazy Interactions gets 14 + 2 for every attack that doesn't make it to the 'inflict damage' step. Even a Tryptych Whip Succubus is usually packing 10. An Incubi Sergeant, just the Sergeant, gets the same as the Telemon (6) at a respectable profile (S4 AP-2 2 damage). A Smash Chaplain gets 6-9 attacks (depending on Chapter) with re-rolling all hits, +1 to Wound, S6, flat damage 4 and MW's on 6's to Wound.
Does anyone see us getting the T7 nerf to our Dreadnaughts that most of the SMs got? I think GW wants us to focus less on giant single model units, and more on tactical level play. Infantry and transports.
I would not be surprised to see Telemons get a nerf, and our Custodian Guard to get a rather significant buff, while them trying to make our LRs somewhat viable.
Audustum wrote: The -1 to Hit is nice but most competitive Raiders are run as Black Heart, which gets a free re-roll to Hit per unit once per turn. So each Raider gets to re-roll its shot. Against a normal Telemon, it takes 22 Black Heart Dark Lances (most competitive lists only bring 6 Raiders) to kill a Telemon. With the Magnifica it's 26. So he's in pretty good shape.
I get 19 and 22 not 22 and 26 with re-rolls to hit.
Audustum wrote: The -1 to Hit is nice but most competitive Raiders are run as Black Heart, which gets a free re-roll to Hit per unit once per turn. So each Raider gets to re-roll its shot. Against a normal Telemon, it takes 22 Black Heart Dark Lances (most competitive lists only bring 6 Raiders) to kill a Telemon. With the Magnifica it's 26. So he's in pretty good shape.
I get 19 and 22 not 22 and 26 with re-rolls to hit.
So with shadowkeepers the telemon is still a very respectable anvil, even better with the magnifica. That doesn't sound too bad.
So is there a case to be made for a full melee telemon with all the support he can get? I'm talking a vexillus with imperius banner for +1 attack and a dread host captain with all seeing annihilatior. That's 8 attacks with exploding 6s on very high quality attacks. With Trajann rerolls that should threaten almost every interesting target for the telemon. Is it too much of a one trick pony?
No, there's not much use for all those high quality attacks IMO, and it will never be points efficient even if you could wail on a prime target every game, which you will very rarely be able to do. It's too easy to tarpit and outmaneuver. I'm honestly not even a big fan of giving it a fist, I think it's better with two cannons. There's plenty of other stuff in the codex that can dig it out of melee if you need that, and the fist doesn't actually help it do that because the issue with the Telemon being tagged is its low number of attacks, not the quality of those attacks, and the fist doesn't help enough with that to change the equation.
What the Telemon has that nothing else in the codex has is durability and ranged threat, I think it makes more sense to go in on that than to try to turn it into a melee powerhouse that it just isn't. One fist is definitely defensible depending on the rest of your army, but I wouldn't go above that.
Tiberias wrote: So with shadowkeepers the telemon is still a very respectable anvil, even better with the magnifica. That doesn't sound too bad.
So is there a case to be made for a full melee telemon with all the support he can get? I'm talking a vexillus with imperius banner for +1 attack and a dread host captain with all seeing annihilatior. That's 8 attacks with exploding 6s on very high quality attacks. With Trajann rerolls that should threaten almost every interesting target for the telemon. Is it too much of a one trick pony?
So Siegler usually runs them melee + gun. I imagine so that they can hit back against another quality attacker (rather than a horde tarpit). I think the primary reason to take them is for their (relatively) safe 15 points of WWSWF rather than any actual offensive output.
yukishiro1 wrote:No, there's not much use for all those high quality attacks IMO, and it will never be points efficient even if you could wail on a prime target every game, which you will very rarely be able to do. It's too easy to tarpit and outmaneuver. I'm honestly not even a big fan of giving it a fist, I think it's better with two cannons. There's plenty of other stuff in the codex that can dig it out of melee if you need that, and the fist doesn't actually help it do that because the issue with the Telemon being tagged is its low number of attacks, not the quality of those attacks, and the fist doesn't help enough with that to change the equation.
What the Telemon has that nothing else in the codex has is durability and ranged threat, I think it makes more sense to go in on that than to try to turn it into a melee powerhouse that it just isn't. One fist is definitely defensible depending on the rest of your army, but I wouldn't go above that.
Audustum wrote:
Tiberias wrote: So with shadowkeepers the telemon is still a very respectable anvil, even better with the magnifica. That doesn't sound too bad.
So is there a case to be made for a full melee telemon with all the support he can get? I'm talking a vexillus with imperius banner for +1 attack and a dread host captain with all seeing annihilatior. That's 8 attacks with exploding 6s on very high quality attacks. With Trajann rerolls that should threaten almost every interesting target for the telemon. Is it too much of a one trick pony?
So Siegler usually runs them melee + gun. I imagine so that they can hit back against another quality attacker (rather than a horde tarpit). I think the primary reason to take them is for their (relatively) safe 15 points of WWSWF rather than any actual offensive output.
The double telemon list is definitely about having the option for a reliable 15 WWSWF. If you only take one, it's probably because you're not so committed to that strategy. But either way, the reason to take one is to have something that isn't going to die unless you want it to that can anchor an area of the board, so you don't want to build it in a way that it has to go to where your opponent wants it to go, which a melee version has to do. One fist just to deter them from tying it up with stuff like transports can definitely make sense, but that's more to defend itself than to attack with.
Audustum wrote: The -1 to Hit is nice but most competitive Raiders are run as Black Heart, which gets a free re-roll to Hit per unit once per turn. So each Raider gets to re-roll its shot. Against a normal Telemon, it takes 22 Black Heart Dark Lances (most competitive lists only bring 6 Raiders) to kill a Telemon. With the Magnifica it's 26. So he's in pretty good shape.
I get 19 and 22 not 22 and 26 with re-rolls to hit.
I get something like your numbers if I put the Dark Lance at S9 but it's S8 (actually one lower than a lascannon).
Ah I think I see the problem, because each raider gets 1 re-roll and each dark lance is on a different raider you should treat the Dark Lances as re-rolling all hit rolls. I assume what you've done is enter "re-roll 1s" on this website.
Audustum wrote: The -1 to Hit is nice but most competitive Raiders are run as Black Heart, which gets a free re-roll to Hit per unit once per turn. So each Raider gets to re-roll its shot. Against a normal Telemon, it takes 22 Black Heart Dark Lances (most competitive lists only bring 6 Raiders) to kill a Telemon. With the Magnifica it's 26. So he's in pretty good shape.
I get 19 and 22 not 22 and 26 with re-rolls to hit.
I get something like your numbers if I put the Dark Lance at S9 but it's S8 (actually one lower than a lascannon).
Ah I think I see the problem, because each raider gets 1 re-roll and each dark lance is on a different raider you should treat the Dark Lances as re-rolling all hit rolls. I assume what you've done is enter "re-roll 1s" on this website.
Audustum wrote: Huh, no, I entered re-roll all hits on the site.
Got a screenshot of what you put in?
I do but I'm not really familiar with image hosting sites. I'm putting in 3+ to Hit with a -1 Modifier (Magnifica), re-roll all, 26 shots, S8 vs. T8, 2+ armor, AP-4, 4++ invuln, 6+++. What are you putting in?
Audustum wrote: Huh, no, I entered re-roll all hits on the site.
Got a screenshot of what you put in?
I do but I'm not really familiar with image hosting sites. I'm putting in 3+ to Hit with a -1 Modifier (Magnifica), re-roll all, 26 shots, S8 vs. T8, 2+ armor, AP-4, 4++ invuln, 6+++. What are you putting in?
I was meaning what did you put in without modifiers.
Though I've checked my maths for the modified result, it would seem this website doesn't allow you to re-roll 3s if you're BS3+ with a -1 to hit. Is this still how you resolve shooting? I thought that was only a thing last edition?
Audustum wrote: Huh, no, I entered re-roll all hits on the site.
Got a screenshot of what you put in?
I do but I'm not really familiar with image hosting sites. I'm putting in 3+ to Hit with a -1 Modifier (Magnifica), re-roll all, 26 shots, S8 vs. T8, 2+ armor, AP-4, 4++ invuln, 6+++. What are you putting in?
I was meaning what did you put in without modifiers.
Though I've checked my maths for the modified result, it would seem this website doesn't allow you to re-roll 3s if you're BS3+ with a -1 to hit. Is this still how you resolve shooting? I thought that was only a thing last edition?
That is a thing of last edition so it is outdated if it's doing that. Adjustable by simply changing the BS to 4+ instead of 3+ though. Making that change drops it to 14.37 wounds (deviation of 6.43) at 23 shots (from 26).
Audustum wrote: That is a thing of last edition so it is outdated if it's doing that. Adjustable by simply changing the BS to 4+ instead of 3+ though. Making that change drops it to 14.37 wounds (deviation of 6.43) at 23 shots (from 26).
So as I said, around 19 shots without -1 to hit, around 22 shots with.
So my only problem with taking two shooty Telemons is why don't I just take the Ares for the cost? It can wipe anything off the map in it's first turn, and its capable of shooting way better than the Telemons. The biggest problem is I never earn the 500 back with it, but even if I wipe 300 points off the map with it, it's still done good work, and usually the rest is scattered and I clean up on objectives.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So my only problem with taking two shooty Telemons is why don't I just take the Ares for the cost? It can wipe anything off the map in it's first turn, and its capable of shooting way better than the Telemons. The biggest problem is I never earn the 500 back with it, but even if I wipe 300 points off the map with it, it's still done good work, and usually the rest is scattered and I clean up on objectives.
It's more shooty yes but doesn't have the staying power of 2 Telemons:
- Telemons get +1 invul save
- Telemons get a 6+FnP - 2 Telemons have 6 more wounds
- Telemons get -1 damage
- Telemons can easily get -1 to hit from Vexhilla
- 2 targets are better than 1
Like it's 34 dark lances (without re-rolls) to take down a single Telemon whilst you only need 27 to take down an Ares. In terms of survivability, they're not even close.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So my only problem with taking two shooty Telemons is why don't I just take the Ares for the cost? It can wipe anything off the map in it's first turn, and its capable of shooting way better than the Telemons. The biggest problem is I never earn the 500 back with it, but even if I wipe 300 points off the map with it, it's still done good work, and usually the rest is scattered and I clean up on objectives.
It's more shooty yes but doesn't have the staying power of 2 Telemons:
- Telemons get +1 invul save
- Telemons get a 6+FnP - 2 Telemons have 6 more wounds
- Telemons get -1 damage
- Telemons can easily get -1 to hit from Vexhilla
- 2 targets are better than 1
Like it's 34 dark lances (without re-rolls) to take down a single Telemon whilst you only need 27 to take down an Ares. In terms of survivability, they're not even close.
Also an Ares only gives you one WWSWF while two Telemons gives you two.
I'll take 1st turn obliteration of almost anything my opponent stupidly forgets to screen, over WWSWF. This game/edition is won or lost in the first turn again now, and I can't plan for maybe if my units are really beaten up in the third round I can pop X strategem. The with -1 to hit, a 4++ and 22 wounds, it should make it to at least the second turn, and by the third turn it should have earned it's points back and seriously sent your opponent into serious disarray. Goodhammer has said in videos on list building they are basically must take in high level games.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I'll take 1st turn obliteration of almost anything my opponent stupidly forgets to screen, over WWSWF. This game/edition is won or lost in the first turn again now, and I can't plan for maybe if my units are really beaten up in the third round I can pop X strategem. The with -1 to hit, a 4++ and 22 wounds, it should make it to at least the second turn, and by the third turn it should have earned it's points back and seriously sent your opponent into serious disarray. Goodhammer has said in videos on list building they are basically must take in high level games.
But it doesn't have a 4++? It has a 5++.
And as for destroying stuff turn 1 you've got 8x S7 AP-2 D1 and d3x S14 AP-4 Dd3+6 shots vs 16x S7 AP-3 D2 and 10-20x S5 AP-1 D1 shots, not to mention the fact that you'll likely be able to get re-roll 1s to hit (and 1s to wound with Trajann) for the Telemons whilst the Ares has to fly off to the centre of the board.
Two Telemons easily outclass one Ares in terms of shooting, survivability and objective scoring. There's no contest.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I'll take 1st turn obliteration of almost anything my opponent stupidly forgets to screen, over WWSWF. This game/edition is won or lost in the first turn again now, and I can't plan for maybe if my units are really beaten up in the third round I can pop X strategem. The with -1 to hit, a 4++ and 22 wounds, it should make it to at least the second turn, and by the third turn it should have earned it's points back and seriously sent your opponent into serious disarray. Goodhammer has said in videos on list building they are basically must take in high level games.
I like Goons but I'm not sure they're super great for high end competitive lately. The Art of War guys never bring an Ares and the call is usually between 2 or 3 Telemons (Lennon takes 2, Siegler has taken 3).
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I'll take 1st turn obliteration of almost anything my opponent stupidly forgets to screen, over WWSWF. This game/edition is won or lost in the first turn again now, and I can't plan for maybe if my units are really beaten up in the third round I can pop X strategem. The with -1 to hit, a 4++ and 22 wounds, it should make it to at least the second turn, and by the third turn it should have earned it's points back and seriously sent your opponent into serious disarray. Goodhammer has said in videos on list building they are basically must take in high level games.
But it doesn't have a 4++? It has a 5++.
And as for destroying stuff turn 1 you've got 8x S7 AP-2 D1 and d3x S14 AP-4 Dd3+6 shots vs 16x S7 AP-3 D2 and 10-20x S5 AP-1 D1 shots, not to mention the fact that you'll likely be able to get re-roll 1s to hit (and 1s to wound with Trajann) for the Telemons whilst the Ares has to fly off to the centre of the board.
Two Telemons easily outclass one Ares in terms of shooting, survivability and objective scoring. There's no contest.
Thank you for the correction, 5++, not 4.
It's also got -1 to hit, but you are right, it's just a flying Shadow Sword. I just don't want to admit I wasted the money....
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I'll take 1st turn obliteration of almost anything my opponent stupidly forgets to screen, over WWSWF. This game/edition is won or lost in the first turn again now, and I can't plan for maybe if my units are really beaten up in the third round I can pop X strategem. The with -1 to hit, a 4++ and 22 wounds, it should make it to at least the second turn, and by the third turn it should have earned it's points back and seriously sent your opponent into serious disarray. Goodhammer has said in videos on list building they are basically must take in high level games.
But it doesn't have a 4++? It has a 5++.
And as for destroying stuff turn 1 you've got 8x S7 AP-2 D1 and d3x S14 AP-4 Dd3+6 shots vs 16x S7 AP-3 D2 and 10-20x S5 AP-1 D1 shots, not to mention the fact that you'll likely be able to get re-roll 1s to hit (and 1s to wound with Trajann) for the Telemons whilst the Ares has to fly off to the centre of the board.
Two Telemons easily outclass one Ares in terms of shooting, survivability and objective scoring. There's no contest.
Thank you for the correction, 5++, not 4.
It's also got -1 to hit, but you are right, it's just a flying Shadow Sword. I just don't want to admit I wasted the money....
A guy just got 5th at Red River with a Fire Raptor
I'm sure there are ways to make it work.
So I've been thinking on this.
Use the Ares as a transport popper into DE matchups. It can probably get one or two, haven't run the math. Use two Pallas to clean out the inside (much more positional than Telemons). Take 2 big bricks (8+) of sword+board to WWSWF with the Ares. T1, drop the Ares to Hover Mode if they lack strong shooting. If they don't, fly off the board every other turn. Dare them to focus it. Grab 50%+1 objectives, camp hard.
Take WWSWF, Domination and then map specific or Scramblers (if we can fit some Venatarii in there, I haven't checked points yet).
It's also got -1 to hit, but you are right, it's just a flying Shadow Sword. I just don't want to admit I wasted the money....
No money is wasted if it's cool and you can still play it in casual games. I mean, I own all of the FW exalted Daemon Lords and it definitely doesn't hurt me deep down that they're all slightly buffed versions of the regular greater Daemons for 2-3x the points
It's also got -1 to hit, but you are right, it's just a flying Shadow Sword. I just don't want to admit I wasted the money....
No money is wasted if it's cool and you can still play it in casual games. I mean, I own all of the FW exalted Daemon Lords and it definitely doesn't hurt me deep down that they're all slightly buffed versions of the regular greater Daemons for 2-3x the points
I've always hated how the next wave of updates for FW really gutted the FW centerpiece models barring a few exceptions. You would never take any titan over the stuff you have now, especially with how objectives work, so even if you scale for 3000+ games, titans may as well not exist barring for Apocalypse, which I guess was the point.
It's also got -1 to hit, but you are right, it's just a flying Shadow Sword. I just don't want to admit I wasted the money....
No money is wasted if it's cool and you can still play it in casual games. I mean, I own all of the FW exalted Daemon Lords and it definitely doesn't hurt me deep down that they're all slightly buffed versions of the regular greater Daemons for 2-3x the points
I've always hated how the next wave of updates for FW really gutted the FW centerpiece models barring a few exceptions. You would never take any titan over the stuff you have now, especially with how objectives work, so even if you scale for 3000+ games, titans may as well not exist barring for Apocalypse, which I guess was the point.
Yeah, I think all of the titans could use with a good 30% point cut, minimum. Even then they wouldn't be "competitive" in most metas.
cuda1179 wrote: Yeah, I think all of the titans could use with a good 30% point cut, minimum. Even then they wouldn't be "competitive" in most metas.
I don't even want a price cut for the big FW 'apocalypse only' units, like if they wanna keep those units out of regular games fine, whatever. What I want is for those units to have some cool, stupid overpowered rules that make them both fun to use in apocalypse and worth the price tag. None of this crap they're doing with all the Chaos stuff where they've dropped all the points down and taken away all the cool rules but they're still too expensive and no longer fun to play.
Titans shouldn't be in 40k, it's bad enough having ~500 point models that warp the game to the very edge of what the d6 system can handle. If they want to start issuing rules without point values that can only be used in narrative play I have no problem with that, but GW doesn't seem to be big on fragmenting their game that way.
Oh man, I prolly shouldn't mention my idea for Custodes Knights then...
I would love GW to bring back the Horus Heresy (?) models where they had giant mechanical tigers as mounts? That was Custodes right? I swear I saw a book cover or something that had them on giant cats.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Oh man, I prolly shouldn't mention my idea for Custodes Knights then...
I would love GW to bring back the Horus Heresy (?) models where they had giant mechanical tigers as mounts? That was Custodes right? I swear I saw a book cover or something that had them on giant cats.
I think you may have it, but I am not well versed in HH models, I'll just admit I likely saw a fan fic and call it good. I am just hoping we get some new form of vehicle. Maybe venerable repulsors?
What would a repulsor do that a calladius/coronus cant and how should it be venerable? Venerable usually means ancient. Repulsors are at the current timeline... depending on manufacture date, mayhaps a few centuries old where they sat in a parking lot, powered down and covered in a white, neutral sheet
If GW ever decides to make a plastic transport/tank for us I sincerely hope it has a similar design to the coronus/caladius. They have a very distinct look that fits the custodes very well. A blinged up repulsor wouldn't fit into the aesthetic of the golden boys at all.
Besides, why would our guys need these new flying bricks cawl designed when we have our own anti grav tech that is actually older...and more sophisticated.
What I desperately want to see is 40k rules for the kharon pattern aquisitor. Such a unique vehicle that fits the sisters really well.
Tiberias wrote: If GW ever decides to make a plastic transport/tank for us I sincerely hope it has a similar design to the coronus/caladius. They have a very distinct look that fits the custodes very well. A blinged up repulsor wouldn't fit into the aesthetic of the golden boys at all.
Besides, why would our guys need these new flying bricks cawl designed when we have our own anti grav tech that is actually older...and more sophisticated.
What I desperately want to see is 40k rules for the kharon pattern aquisitor. Such a unique vehicle that fits the sisters really well.
I just want jetbike sisters :( Then they'll finally be fast enough (and a smidge tougher) to actually stop the things you really want to stop, psychically (rather than getting kited and shot by small arms fire).
Tiberias wrote: If GW ever decides to make a plastic transport/tank for us I sincerely hope it has a similar design to the coronus/caladius. They have a very distinct look that fits the custodes very well. A blinged up repulsor wouldn't fit into the aesthetic of the golden boys at all.
Besides, why would our guys need these new flying bricks cawl designed when we have our own anti grav tech that is actually older...and more sophisticated.
What I desperately want to see is 40k rules for the kharon pattern aquisitor. Such a unique vehicle that fits the sisters really well.
I just want jetbike sisters :( Then they'll finally be fast enough (and a smidge tougher) to actually stop the things you really want to stop, psychically (rather than getting kited and shot by small arms fire).
I'm not very optimistic for jetbike sisters, though I'd love to be wrong, but I can't see gw going in that direction. We can be happy if we even get a generic sisters HQ besides Aleya.
But what if the kharon pattern aquisitor actually got 40k rules and somehow amplifies the null powers of the sisters sitting inside. Now that would be actually useful.
So your predictions are new points, maybe a new character, and sisters are part of Custodes. Well boys, I think we are done here, the mystery has been solved!
All joking aside, I just want a plastic tank/transport that isn't a complete joke. I know we don't have centuries old Repulsors, but that was the basis for my point. Some form of Repulsor tech (We know the Custodes have it) in a transport, that isn't 400 points and is plastic. I would love a 200 point transport with fly, almost no guns, and the ability to transport up to 6 infantry, or 3 terminators. A Venerable flying Razorback?
They could phase out the current Land Raider and give us the one custodes actually use, which has fly and an invun. mabey make it with a crusader weapon layout using Lastrum ammo (+1 strength and AP) and stick a Multi-melta on top.
Eihnlazer wrote: They could phase out the current Land Raider and give us the one custodes actually use, which has fly and an invun. mabey make it with a crusader weapon layout using Lastrum ammo (+1 strength and AP) and stick a Multi-melta on top.
It would be worth 300pts if they did that.
I imagine that the Land Raider and basic contemptor will remain the red headed step children of the Custodes army once our Codex is released: we don't exactly have enough units for them to start removing any, even if they do add a couple more.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So your predictions are new points, maybe a new character, and sisters are part of Custodes. Well boys, I think we are done here, the mystery has been solved!
?
I'm just saying that if anyone is holding their breath for a more expansive Custodes rollout they are going to be disappointed. We'll be getting the (almost) minimal treatment.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So your predictions are new points, maybe a new character, and sisters are part of Custodes. Well boys, I think we are done here, the mystery has been solved!
?
I'm just saying that if anyone is holding their breath for a more expansive Custodes rollout they are going to be disappointed. We'll be getting the (almost) minimal treatment.
I wouldn't be too pessimistic. Custodes are very popular. They are a good starting faction and are easy to paint and play, but have a very high skill ceiling both in regards to painting and gameplay.
Wouldn't be bad business decision if gw were to support custodes and sisters a bit more in terms of model releases. And let's be honest...thats the deciding factor.
Question to the Custodes players out there that like to convert Stormcast (yes I know this is better for the modeling section). The pics of the new Stormcast Annihilators look pretty nice. I want to convert one when they are released. Do you think they look bulky enough for a terminator, or are they more power armor?
I don't see us getting a new Uber vehicle, those only ever come from FW. I do see us perhaps gaining some viability through the Contemptor loadout spru. Allow Custodes to go with the non-Venerable loadouts. Like the Relic one with the special beam gun, and the plasma cannons.
Also, just saying, if they gave a special Custodes name to the Kheres Cannon, and made is special, they could make it heavy 6 at 36" S7 AP2 d2, and overnight that becomes a good dakkabot for the cost. Make it able to take that and the Multi-melta and It's worth the cost?
At Arms Reach- Activate this stratagem when an Adaptus Custodes equipped with a custodian spear type weapon is chosen as the target in the fight phase. No more than 3 attacks per enemy model in engagement range may target this unit.
Masterful control of the battlefield allows The custodian to keep his foes at bay, reducing the effectiveness of their onslaught.
Eh, straight copy from the DA codex strat would be boring, but very useful nonetheless.
Would be cool to see that strat or something similar included, but also give our guardian spears back the 7th Ed "block" rule! It would be actually really useful against high quality attacks while also being really unique.
Whatever they choose to do, spears need something useful (and preferably also unique) to be worth taking alongside our guys with shields.
Tiberias wrote: Eh, straight copy from the DA codex strat would be boring, but very useful nonetheless.
Would be cool to see that strat or something similar included, but also give our guardian spears back the 7th Ed "block" rule! It would be actually really useful against high quality attacks while also being really unique.
Whatever they choose to do, spears need something useful (and preferably also unique) to be worth taking alongside our guys with shields.
Copying rules would be boring but it seems like they're going for similar rules under different names across the board for consistency.
Spears could probably do with a points drop vs shields might be an idea or give us something that makes taking a massive unit of spear infantry worth while? Like:
"Phalanx: if this unit contains 3 or more spears and only contains spears then change the spear profile to S+2 AP-3 D3"
Tiberias wrote: Eh, straight copy from the DA codex strat would be boring, but very useful nonetheless.
Would be cool to see that strat or something similar included, but also give our guardian spears back the 7th Ed "block" rule! It would be actually really useful against high quality attacks while also being really unique.
Whatever they choose to do, spears need something useful (and preferably also unique) to be worth taking alongside our guys with shields.
Copying rules would be boring but it seems like they're going for similar rules under different names across the board for consistency.
Spears could probably do with a points drop vs shields might be an idea or give us something that makes taking a massive unit of spear infantry worth while? Like:
"Phalanx: if this unit contains 3 or more spears and only contains spears then change the spear profile to S+2 AP-3 D3"
That's honestly a fair suggestion, though I am personally not a big fan of fixing things mostly by point adjustments, especially in a faction that does not have a lot of unit and equipment options like custodes.
I'm all for buffing spears, but giving them flat 3 dmg would be too much imo. The flat 3 dmg should imo be reserved for axes.
Now how about this: it's just a crackpot theory, but hear me out....with fight last abilities being everywhere nowadays, how about giving spears the ability to always fight first even when being charged. Yes, that would be really strong, but it could still be countered with a fight last ability.
That way spears actually have a role as being a defensive option against melee centric armies, which fits both the custodes lore in general and it also makes sense that it shouldn't be easy to charge a group of gene-altered demigods who wield huge pointy sticks.
So this way spears actually have an identity as a more defensive choice (against melee) and axes get flat 3 dmg for raw unbridled power and offensive dmg dealing against vehicles and monsters.
Spears are already 7 points cheaper than shields per model, the solution isn't to increase that disparity even more. Spears just need a sweep profile - double your attacks, at S:user -2AP 1 damage each - and flat D2 on the non-sweep, and that'd make them instantly worth considering.
Sword and shield: unchanged
Spear: +1S -3AP 2D, or double attacks at S:U -2AP D1
Axes: +3S, -2AP, 3D.
Keep the strats that give spears +1 to wound and axes +1AP.
That makes each weapon worth serious consideration.
Maybe just add +1S to all of them too, in light of recent stat inflation. It's kinda dumb when you think about it that a generic power sword has a greater strength bonus that a custodes sword.
I'd also change the misericordia to do a single MW on a successful hit roll (with no other stats or damage), limit it to a single extra attack per model after all other attacks have been made, and then bake into the unit cost so no more of this having to pay points for it nonsense. Gives a custodian a little extra oopmh against the toughest targets in a lore-friendly way (it's supposed to be a dagger that deals the coup de grace, and the 40k lore says they can go through any armor as if it isn't there).
I meant more that with every attack there is a high chance of an out right kill, of a model, excepting vehicles and warlords or monsters. Instead of a MW, it's just a 6+ destroys 1 model.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I meant more that with every attack there is a high chance of an out right kill, of a model, excepting vehicles and warlords or monsters. Instead of a MW, it's just a 6+ destroys 1 model.
That's too powerful and also a very good example of a feel bad rule. It's "only" on a 6, but it's still too much imo. Potentially taking out an enemy deathshroud terminator with one swing without our opponent having an opportunity to roll against it is not only op, but also makes for rather non-engaging gameplay.
I guess, I don't see the difference given the disparity between our points cost, our capability, and what other units less than 100 points can currently do.
So I've just been taking another look at the Pallas Grav-tank, a unit which I had dismissed for a long time, and looking at it now, it doesn't seem toooo bad. Compare it to Vertus Praetors:
Points: the Pallas is 10pts more than a VP
Toughness: 3+/5++ T6 8W vs 2+/4++ T6 4W
Shooting: 2x S7 AP-4 D3 (re-roll against vehicles) vs 1x S8 AP-4 Dd6 (re-roll against vehicles) OR 6x S5 AP-2 D1 vs 6x S4 AP0 D1 (rapid fire)
Melee: Vertus obviously win here
Mobility: 16" vs 14"
I'm not saying that these are the overlooked gems that are gonna sky rocket our codex into the no.1 position, but they look interesting as a mobile gunboat. Might give them a try on TTS, see how much the lack of melee hurts them.
They're not bad. The main problem is they kinda pull in two directions - on the one hand, you're paying lots of points for a mobile profile that encourages you to think about using them to get engage, hop on objectives, etc - and on the other, you're also paying points for the gun, which is at that awkward spot of being just good enough that you don't want to not shoot it, but not good enough that it actually kills much of anything on its own. So you're stuck with a unit that on the one hand you want to send off on its own as a mobility tool, and, on the other, you want to add to the rest of your firepower against a specific target. Either way, you feel like you're paying points for something you don't really use.
They also die to a stiff breeze.
I agree they're better than bikes, but almost anything is. Bikes are just terrible, far too expensive for how easy they are to kill these days.
Pallas would be fine if you could take 3 in a squadron.
3 would be as many wounds as 6 bikes, with far more reliable shooting but little to no melee. It would also make an excellent unit to soak up smites with, as 24 wounds for 285points is far better than 12 wounds for 225.
The bikes have better stratagem support I think. But that might all change, who knows. Right now Stooping dive seals it for me. Also Bikes will likely be core, whereas the Pallas won't.
yukishiro1 wrote: They're not bad. The main problem is they kinda pull in two directions - on the one hand, you're paying lots of points for a mobile profile that encourages you to think about using them to get engage, hop on objectives, etc - and on the other, you're also paying points for the gun, which is at that awkward spot of being just good enough that you don't want to not shoot it, but not good enough that it actually kills much of anything on its own. So you're stuck with a unit that on the one hand you want to send off on its own as a mobility tool, and, on the other, you want to add to the rest of your firepower against a specific target. Either way, you feel like you're paying points for something you don't really use.
They also die to a stiff breeze.
I agree they're better than bikes, but almost anything is. Bikes are just terrible, far too expensive for how easy they are to kill these days.
I'm thinking they might be good to run in a double Telemon list: their mobility meaning you can scatter from the castle if need be and though they might be squishy, any shots fired at them are not shots fired at your Telemons.
Thinking about it, for the points they're about the same cost as 1 Telemon:
Points: Telemon is 25pts cheaper
Toughness: 3+/5++ T6 24W (3 targets) vs 2+/4++/6+++ T8 14W (-1 to damage)
Shooting: 6x S7 AP-4 D3 (re-roll against vehicles) vs 8x S7 AP-3 D2
Melee: N/A
Mobility: 16" vs 8"
Once again, the Telemon is the winner but having 3 Pallas tanks supporting 1-2 Telemons... Slightly higher quality shooting, better maneuver ability... I don't know, just might be an alternative way of playing our army, I'll give it a go and let you all know how it did.
I was thinking about something that most races have that Custodes could really benefit from: A medic unit. Roll a 4+ bring a model back to life sort of thing, I know the exchange rate is OP, 3-5 wounds for a 4+? But even if it's just wounds back it's something I really think could work for us?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I was thinking about something that most races have that Custodes could really benefit from: A medic unit. Roll a 4+ bring a model back to life sort of thing, I know the exchange rate is OP, 3-5 wounds for a 4+? But even if it's just wounds back it's something I really think could work for us?
Hmmm, idk, a Custodes medic just doesn't feel like a unit that would exist in terms of lore. Of course if I'm wrong and there is a Custodes apothecary in the lore please correct me but it wouldn't feel like a Custodes unit, just a re-skinned Space Marine one.
A relic that acted as a kind of once per game resurrection orb I could mayyybe see though but I don't know how much value bringing models back that had been killed that phase would be.
I think it'd work better to just have all custodes infantry and bikers heal a wound at the end of each turn (not battle round). Gotta bring them down all at once with overwhelming force, or they quickly put themselves back together and you gotta do it all again.
yukishiro1 wrote: I think it'd work better to just have all custodes infantry and bikers heal a wound at the end of each turn (not battle round). Gotta bring them down all at once with overwhelming force, or they quickly put themselves back together and you gotta do it all again.
Hmmm, would make our Characters even more of a bitch to remove though.
mrhappyface wrote: Yeah, I'd love it. Just wondering whether the larger community would be very happy about regening smash captains.
Judging by how people reacted towards all the Apothecary buffs/abilities for SM? I would say that would be a big no, even if it's a big chunk of points in your army. If there's one thing I've noticed players hating more than losing half their army before the game begins, it's not being able to kill things themselves.
In a game with stuff like Mortarion or apothecaries that heal multiple models a turn and rez another from the dead automatically, I really don't think anybody's going to be too upset about a bike captain that gets a wound or two back if you don't oneshot him. I mean, have you ever heard anyone complain about Living Metal? Anything is possible I guess, but it'd really surprise me if anyone particularly cared about Custodes getting the odd wound or two back here or there.
The only thing I can remember was the complaining about the IH regeneration of their dreads. That I could understand. What I think needs to change though is we are no longer even hard to kill. For some who don't have their codex yet, sure. But when Admech goes live, thats 3-4 codexes, with cheap units, Relatively, which can delete us with relative ease. Cognis weapons anyone? Witches? Plage Marine terminators? Eradicators? Melta Bikers? We need some form of regenerative ability, it's the only thing we don't currently have. Whether it's an always on faction ability, or a stratagem, or a unit, we need it.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: The only thing I can remember was the complaining about the IH regeneration of their dreads. That I could understand. What I think needs to change though is we are no longer even hard to kill. For some who don't have their codex yet, sure. But when Admech goes live, thats 3-4 codexes, with cheap units, Relatively, which can delete us with relative ease. Cognis weapons anyone? Witches? Plage Marine terminators? Eradicators? Melta Bikers? We need some form of regenerative ability, it's the only thing we don't currently have. Whether it's an always on faction ability, or a stratagem, or a unit, we need it.
It'd be something, but I'd prefer if they just jacked us to 80-90 PPM for a Custodian Guard (more for the others), gave us 5-6W minimum and more offensive potential. We're a low model count, super-elite army. Let's just embrace it and go wild.
I think we can all agree that custodes need to be more deadly and need to be tougher - they should be the most elite things in the game, full stop.
The deadlyness can easily be handled by an extra attack on everything (this fits with the increase alot of other units have received and would keep us in line) and then change up the weapon profiles.
The sword and shield work well - add an extra St to keep it in line with powerswords and perhaps change to flat 2 dam but I would be ok with D3 still. Keep the shield as is, we need a super survivable option.
Halberd - Perhaps an extra St but its not hugely useful, flat D:2 and as mentioned above a sweep profile for double attacks, this gives it a solid roll as anti mass infantry.
Axe - Change it to D:3, other than that its fine.
Lance - Again giving it a flat damage 2, perhaps damage 3 on the charge.
I think the survivability is a harder thing to add, you don't really want to replicate things other armies get (-1 dam, -1 to hit, only wound on a 4+) and we already have good toughness and as good invulnerable saves.
A few options I think could work:
- Enemy units cannot re-roll the attack or wound roll when attacking custodes - has the added benefit of speeding the game up.
- Reduce the AP of all attacks against custodes by 1 - this would be essential if they reduce our invulnerable saves.
- Enemy units must re-roll all successful wounds against custodes - likely too good but hammers home the fact only powerful weapons are of use against them.
I think that we possibly need an extra W on most profiles as well, just to keep us in line with marines but I don't think that will happen.
WisdomLS wrote: I think we can all agree that custodes need to be more deadly and need to be tougher - they should be the most elite things in the game, full stop.
The deadlyness can easily be handled by an extra attack on everything (this fits with the increase alot of other units have received and would keep us in line) and then change up the weapon profiles.
The sword and shield work well - add an extra St to keep it in line with powerswords and perhaps change to flat 2 dam but I would be ok with D3 still. Keep the shield as is, we need a super survivable option.
Halberd - Perhaps an extra St but its not hugely useful, flat D:2 and as mentioned above a sweep profile for double attacks, this gives it a solid roll as anti mass infantry.
Axe - Change it to D:3, other than that its fine.
Lance - Again giving it a flat damage 2, perhaps damage 3 on the charge.
I think the survivability is a harder thing to add, you don't really want to replicate things other armies get (-1 dam, -1 to hit, only wound on a 4+) and we already have good toughness and as good invulnerable saves.
A few options I think could work:
- Enemy units cannot re-roll the attack or wound roll when attacking custodes - has the added benefit of speeding the game up.
- Reduce the AP of all attacks against custodes by 1 - this would be essential if they reduce our invulnerable saves.
- Enemy units must re-roll all successful wounds against custodes - likely too good but hammers home the fact only powerful weapons are of use against them.
I think that we possibly need an extra W on most profiles as well, just to keep us in line with marines but I don't think that will happen.
I'd like to point out that there is also absolutely no reason to not allow basic custodes to take a powerfist and stormshield as it it indeed the case for custodes during the HH.
The Hetareon guard that can equip the Solarite gauntlets and shields are an elite unit.
Our elites are already quite packed. I'd like to get them as a bodyguard type option though, like if you take a Captain Commander/Trajaan you can take one squad of 2-3 of them and they would get the bodyguard rule.
They would have the extra attack and leadership like wardens, plus the gear options, and an Always Fight first rule if they are near the HQ they are there to protect.
I'm not saying it's wouldn't be the most 9th edition thing ever to give Custodes S10 3 damage Power fists on top of 2+3++(+1 to save rolls) 5+++, for less than our terminators cost, but common, do we really want that level of broken?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I'm not saying it's wouldn't be the most 9th edition thing ever to give Custodes S10 3 damage Power fists on top of 2+3++(+1 to save rolls) 5+++, for less than our terminators cost, but common, do we really want that level of broken?
LOL, yes? If this was a limited bodyguard option I'd actually see no real problem with it.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I'm not saying it's wouldn't be the most 9th edition thing ever to give Custodes S10 3 damage Power fists on top of 2+3++(+1 to save rolls) 5+++, for less than our terminators cost, but common, do we really want that level of broken?
LOL, yes? If this was a limited bodyguard option I'd actually see no real problem with it.
Limited don't mean squat in our faction when we only have the points to take maybe two of a given unit anyway.
IMO what Custodes really need is existing units and weapons to be improved and diversified so there are more effective and meaningful options, not new units or new weapon loadouts. Right now everything blurs together too much, and it makes selections boring and predictable.
If they made our basic troops basically the equivalent of Heavy Deathwing Terminators, I think that would have a negative effect on our game style and I would have to break the arms of all my guardians to put on powerfists now.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: If they made our basic troops basically the equivalent of Heavy Deathwing Terminators, I think that would have a negative effect on our game style and I would have to break the arms of all my guardians to put on powerfists now.
Our troops won't be able to use powerfists. The hetaeron guard is a very specific unit and if it ever were to be released, which I wouldn't hold my breath for to actually happen, they will definitely not be a troops choice.
I'm sorry, I thought someone said our "Shield guys" should be able to use powerfists. The only models we have that use shields are HQs and Troops. If you made a third unit that could, that would be an entirely new unit, which isn't what they were talking about. Hence my confusion.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I'm sorry, I thought someone said our "Shield guys" should be able to use powerfists. The only models we have that use shields are HQs and Troops. If you made a third unit that could, that would be an entirely new unit, which isn't what they were talking about. Hence my confusion.
No need to apologize. Just to maybe clear up any confusion: the hetaeron guard have existed in our lore for some time. In 30k these are the guys who are personally with the emperor at all times, as of course not everyone of the ten thousand is permanently in the same room with the emperor. So these have to be the very best of our guys. In 40k the hetaeron guard are roughly equivalent with the 300 companions, who are stationed within the throne room at all times. So much for the lore.
The hetaeron guard actually have rules in 30k, which is where they can be equipped with storm shields and power fists. There was never a dedicated kit for them released however. Since Forgeworld massively expanded the custodes model range based on their 30k iteration, there was some hope they might release a dedicated hetaeron guard kit at some point, which in turn would mean that we would quite likely get rules for them in 40k, since every custodes unit from forgeworld (except constantin valdor for obvious reasons) also got 40k rules.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I'm sorry, I thought someone said our "Shield guys" should be able to use powerfists. The only models we have that use shields are HQs and Troops. If you made a third unit that could, that would be an entirely new unit, which isn't what they were talking about. Hence my confusion.
No need to apologize. Just to maybe clear up any confusion: the hetaeron guard have existed in our lore for some time. In 30k these are the guys who are personally with the emperor at all times, as of course not everyone of the ten thousand is permanently in the same room with the emperor. So these have to be the very best of our guys. In 40k the hetaeron guard are roughly equivalent with the 300 companions, who are stationed within the throne room at all times. So much for the lore.
The hetaeron guard actually have rules in 30k, which is where they can be equipped with storm shields and power fists. There was never a dedicated kit for them released however. Since Forgeworld massively expanded the custodes model range based on their 30k iteration, there was some hope they might release a dedicated hetaeron guard kit at some point, which in turn would mean that we would quite likely get rules for them in 40k, since every custodes unit from forgeworld (except constantin valdor for obvious reasons) also got 40k rules.
Sadly, pretty sure this falls squarely in Chapterhouse. If GW releases rules without a model, third parties can make a model for it. So unlikely to see these without a model release.
They could just do an arms upgrade sprue for wardens - not that I'd want them to, though. The army doesn't need another even more elite elites choice, it's overflowing with those already.
yukishiro1 wrote: They could just do an arms upgrade sprue for wardens - not that I'd want them to, though. The army doesn't need another even more elite elites choice, it's overflowing with those already.
I'd not put it past GW to do something that dumb considering the cadian infantry upgrade sprue nonsense, but I hope to see at least one new kit with our codex release. It's likely going to be some sort of character (either sisters or custodes), since that is the easiest way for GW to make money. Just design a new monopose character, charge premium price for it....profit.
Not that I don't want to see new stuff for our faction, but when you factor in forgeworld and consider what units custodes have in the lore, our faction is pretty fleshed out. Now the problem with that is the fact that FW premium prices and working with resin keeps some hobbyists from getting access to basically half our factions units, which isn't optimal.
Considering that custodes are quite popular, maybe GW releases a plastic equivalent of a popular FW unit at some point, a dreadnought or transport/tank for example. But considering how well the FW custodes stuff has been selling over the past months, I don't think GW even has enough incentive to create a plastic transport or something similar.
Anyway, long story short. I wouldn't get my hopes up for a proper model release for us in 9th.
Don't they already do that? I mean it's not possible (I think) to buy several in codex Guard units (Astropath, Platoon Leader, Plasma Russ, Regular Commissar, and Veteran squads, if I am remembering correctly. They went away in 8th, and you can't find them anymore, but they still have current rules.
As for Custodes, it wouldn't be that hard for GW to release a simple "upgrade" spru, the SW Wolfpack unit that is literally just a weird bunch of reavers with an upgrade spru, is literally that. Same goes for DW primaris. Just make an upgrade spru for Custodian guard that enables them to replace their sword with a powerfist, done.
Looks like new Admech are going to be a brutal matchup for us based on how easily they dismantle death guard.
Vehicles seem like they are just waiting to die. And d3+3 lascannons make bikes and terminators risky.
Not only that, but the 20 man ranger blob is a death sentence to anything.
I know this is optimal, but 80 S5 Ap-2 D1 BS2 shots at 15" kill 4 Terminators or one squad of shield guard.
Considering their/our Infoslave skill is 12" without hit modifiers, that is a no-DS zone for literally anything.
Alt least the 20 vanguard blob with autowound on a hit of 4+ will pling of the 2+, but still hurt a bit.
Not special, since that setup is just a fusilade of fire that nothing can stand against...
Those two armies have always been non favorable matchups for us. We probably don't survive the smite spam regardless of whether they have an extra wound or not. I would hold my horses though and wait to see what they actually get, maybe it won't be too oppressive, but even if it won't be, GK and tsons will in all probability remain a tough match up for us.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: If the new 1kSons/GK codex combo is just around the corner we are screwed. 2-3 wound Rubrics and Scarab Terminators? For the same costs?
Please correct me on that, but Auspex tactics dropped a vid on it and there was no changes on their points. So I guess their extra wound is free?
Not quite.
The points in the Munitorum book are for the Codices, which have the wound update, other changes and are not released yet. We don't know what those points are.
The .pdf points GW released are temporary points only to be used until the Codices are released. Then you switch to the Munitorum points.
The .pdf points are the same as the points are now except in two places (one of them being Landraiders).
So what GW is saying is that despite the Munitorum releasing, their points stay the same till their Codices drop. Then they get point changes.
Tiberias wrote:Those two armies have always been non favorable matchups for us. We probably don't survive the smite spam regardless of whether they have an extra wound or not. I would hold my horses though and wait to see what they actually get, maybe it won't be too oppressive, but even if it won't be, GK and tsons will in all probability remain a tough match up for us.
I've always found Tzeentch-Thousand Sons to be very swingy: I played against a Thousand Sons - Tzeentch Daemons player twice about a month or 2 ago and I rolled over him both times because he didn't get his important powers off either because of failed to cast or deny's. He was unlucky but the games were super one sided and I wonder whether him getting his powers off would have made the games even or one sided in his favour. It just kind of felt like his shooting and combat phases didn't pick up any of the slack left by the poor psychic phases.
yukishiro1 wrote: Caladius is actually somewhat interesting at 100 points less than a Telemon.
Interesting and I will give them a go but a single Telemon still has the survivability of 2 and a half Calidus tanks vs something like a dark lance. Suppose you'll have to ask yourself if what your spending that extra 75pts on is worth losing out on our unkillable dread.
It's a 90 or 105 point difference for the loadouts people actually take. I'd still lean towards sticking with the Telemon, but it at least gives you something to think about, whereas right now it's just a bad joke.
Do you think its a bad idea to dive down the rabbit hole of "GW is holding back major point changes because codex soon"? Apparently the TS/GK codexes were supposed to be out last month originally?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Do you think its a bad idea to dive down the rabbit hole of "GW is holding back major point changes because codex soon"? Apparently the TS/GK codexes were supposed to be out last month originally?
honestly? im hoping they do that with this planned warhammer+ thing, make it part of the service (maybe verify it with the same warhammer app codes they are already using, so they dont miss out on those sweet dead tree sales).
honestly? im hoping they do that with this planned warhammer+ thing, make it part of the service (maybe verify it with the same warhammer app codes they are already using, so they dont miss out on those sweet dead tree sales).
Dead tree sales is why it'll never happen. If we could just pay some amount per-month to be subscribed to all the rules, they wouldn't get their current bonus of having us pay for the app and then pay for books to use in the app.
honestly? im hoping they do that with this planned warhammer+ thing, make it part of the service (maybe verify it with the same warhammer app codes they are already using, so they dont miss out on those sweet dead tree sales).
Dead tree sales is why it'll never happen. If we could just pay some amount per-month to be subscribed to all the rules, they wouldn't get their current bonus of having us pay for the app and then pay for books to use in the app.
which is why i said use the already in use codes printed in the hardcopy format to unlock the full digital versions on warhammer plus, thus keeping those sales up while letting those who want it have the convenience of a proper digial copy (instead of just finding a cheapo pirate scan copy instead).
honestly? im hoping they do that with this planned warhammer+ thing, make it part of the service (maybe verify it with the same warhammer app codes they are already using, so they dont miss out on those sweet dead tree sales).
Dead tree sales is why it'll never happen. If we could just pay some amount per-month to be subscribed to all the rules, they wouldn't get their current bonus of having us pay for the app and then pay for books to use in the app.
which is why i said use the already in use codes printed in the hardcopy format to unlock the full digital versions on warhammer plus, thus keeping those sales up while letting those who want it have the convenience of a proper digial copy (instead of just finding a cheapo pirate scan copy instead).
Perhaps there is confusion.
Code in book to unlock digital version = what we have now.
Are you proposing GW make both physical books and then digital books (charged for the same amount of price as a physical book)? If yes, the issue is then people won't want the subscription (and it'll be a hard sell to say: buy a digital book AND make a subscription to get...a digital book!).
GW's end goal: all players pay full cost of book and pay for service (and likely pay separate service fee for Warhammer+ which is just lore stuff compared to the app, which is game stuff).
What they have now is a blanket refusal to do digital, because they are trying to desperately push this subscription idea. They want to be DnD beyond, but cut out the middleman.
Which is defeating the purpose. The reason DnD beyond is working and people like it is because it's easier than the alternative (Books).
The current app is so obviously bad and messed up that it's easier to become a frequenter of the men of Tortuga than to honestly put in the work. And GW only has to blame themselves.
Back to Custodes, if they were to let us take the Land Raider Crusader, I would take that for 260 points. I feel like that would be perfect. With the HB, and the twin Assault cannons, that's some pretty effective dakka for the cost.
According to the leaks, the marine LR goes to 265 and ours is 280. +1 BS and 6+++ is worth 15 points on it i suppose.
The LR might see play, as it is better at shooting than a Telemon, has more wounds, is faster, but looses the invun.
If you were running 2-3 telemons before, you could run 2 land raiders with the 5++ vexilla and you'd be at almost the same spot.
Dropping the grav tanks to 205 was good, and made taking 3 alot more attractive. I gained an extra venetari and daggers on 5 of them for free in my E Imperatus list.
My shadowkeepers list stays the same, as i had one telemon and one tank.
My 8 dreadnought list will now have to drop the stormcannons for autocannons, which is anoying, but not a huge nerf.
How many of us honestly think GW will keep the balance 60/40, with FW/GW models for custodes in 9th? I don't. I don't see them making new models though, I see them allowing the use of other models, the full lineup of Contemptor Dread weapon options, the full lineup of LR options, and maybe a Venerable Thunderhawk?
For those in the know with the Lore, has Cawl ever remarked about how his brilliance extends to making Primaris Custodes? Because in Avenging son, he kinda says multiuple times he's smarter than the Emperor. I honestly don't know how he isn't shot right then and there.
yukishiro1 wrote: I'm not sure it takes all that much to be smarter than the Emperor, his track record wasn't exactly great on most of his big decisions.
His track record wasn't that bad, only really fell apart at the end and that was only because chaos took advantage of a lot of little gripes to turn his sons against him
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eihnlazer wrote: According to the leaks, the marine LR goes to 265 and ours is 280. +1 BS and 6+++ is worth 15 points on it i suppose.
I have a question: I skipped through the last TTitans game where they played the new admech VS necrons and the admech player used a 20man blob of skitarii Vanguard to delete a 20man necron warrior blob in one shooting phase. He did this by using a 1cp strat where the skitarii Vanguard autowound on a 4+ to hit. He did the same thing the next turn and deleted another 20man warrior blob.
So did they use the stratagem correctly? That seems too good somehow, but if they did...should we be worried? Should everyone be worried? That is some ridiculous firepower that bypasses our first line of defense entirely, which is our very good T5 on infantry. Nvm that they can also push through a lot of wounds on vehicles as well using that stratagem.
It's still overtuned and will probably see a nerf, but the 4+ to hit auto-wounding strat doesn't work on vehicles.
I would be more worried about the 40 point upgrade for canonesses in the new book that lets them pick a fights last within 3" and then once per game also lets friendly core or character units ignore invuln saves in melee against targets within X" (didn't say what X was, but that it would vary based on the size of the miracle dice used). Smash canonesses were already scary, adding fights last and ignore invuln saves on top makes them pretty absurd, even if it does take from them 50ish to 90ish points.
yukishiro1 wrote: It's still overtuned and will probably see a nerf, but the 4+ to hit auto-wounding strat doesn't work on vehicles.
I would be more worried about the 40 point upgrade for canonesses in the new book that lets them pick a fights last within 3" and then once per game also lets friendly core or character units ignore invuln saves in melee against targets within X" (didn't say what X was, but that it would vary based on the size of the miracle dice used). Smash canonesses were already scary, adding fights last and ignore invuln saves on top makes them pretty absurd, even if it does take from them 50ish to 90ish points.
Thanks for clarifying that the admech strat doesn't work on vehicles. Stil absurdly strong....
I've just seen the sisters news as well...ignoring invulns is gonna hurt. Also, what's up with everyone everywhere getting fight last? Shortly everyone has it, everyone is going to fight last and its going to go back to who charged....
Yeah, every army seems to be getting at least one, often two ways to make something fight last. It's clearly a new pet project. Which is funny because in AOS rules that manipulate who gets to activate first were for a long time the most common complaint people had with the game...and then GW was like "oh, let's add those to 40k too!" Meanwhile, GW took the most common complaint from 40k - shooting being too strong without real terrain rules - and added it to AOS, so now that's the most common complaint there. Go figure.
Sisters and Admech are released two weeks apart. Orks are next then Grey Knights and Thousand Sons which leaves 11 Codices to be announced. So worst case our codex is the last that would mean another 13 before the Custodes one comes out if they release one codex per month it would be another 14 month so October 2022.
But it is more likely that our codex is somewhere in the middle so 7 month January of 2022. Or late this year if GW keeps a 2 week release schedule which is unlikely because of corona and other systems like AoS
Codices with unknown date:
Adeptus Custodes
Astra Militarum
Chaos Daemons
Chaos Knights
Chaos Space Marines
Craftworlds
Genestealer Cults
Grey Knights (announced on May 29 )
Harlequins
Imperial Knights
T’au Empire
Thousand Sons (announced on May 29)
Tyranids
On the Topic of Tactics:
I had a game against DE with my Nids and got tabled on turn 5. His list was not even that competetive but when they have for example a 60 point model with 12 strong attacks there is not much you can do with Nids. I plan on bringing Custodes next what would you recommend agaisnt DE?
On topic: Bikes, dakka bots, Sisters? I've seen sisters do good work against DE for the cost. If nothing else it's just one more thing they have to get through.
On release date:
I feel like we may get a White Dwarf release thing. I have zero reason or facts to point to this being true, I just feel GW is going to give up on the faction this edition. They are sooo far behind, and they don't really care about our faction if the damned ORKS are now Custodes level in stats, and everyone out-melees us. Our only gimmick is our invulns, and I don't see them wasting a codex on that?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: On topic: Bikes, dakka bots, Sisters? I've seen sisters do good work against DE for the cost. If nothing else it's just one more thing they have to get through.
On release date:
I feel like we may get a White Dwarf release thing. I have zero reason or facts to point to this being true, I just feel GW is going to give up on the faction this edition. They are sooo far behind, and they don't really care about our faction if the damned ORKS are now Custodes level in stats, and everyone out-melees us. Our only gimmick is our invulns, and I don't see them wasting a codex on that?
God damn it man, we've had this discussion 2 times already. GW is NOT going to condemn us to die in white dwarf. Why? Because custodes are a very popular and beginner friendly faction with very recent kits, that also sell quite well. Your fears are completely unfounded. We are far behind because we were one of the first codices in 8th and the age is starting to show.
And no, the new beast snagga orks are not custodes, they still only have one wound and a terrible save. I also don't like that gravis marines and beast snagga orks infringe on the T5 infantry design space that made use somewhat unique, but there is no reason to scream fire, yet.
Edit: I don't mean to sound confrontational and I understand your grievances, but the hyperbole has to stop.
Edit2: I will grant though, in light of the current rules preview on paragon warsuits, that they are just better custodes in absolutely every regard. S/T5, 2+ save, 4 wounds and -1 dmg. So yeah, sisters get mecha custodes.
nordsturmking wrote: Sisters and Admech are released two weeks apart. Orks are next then Grey Knights and Thousand Sons which leaves 11 Codices to be announced. So worst case our codex is the last that would mean another 13 before the Custodes one comes out if they release one codex per month it would be another 14 month so October 2022.
But it is more likely that our codex is somewhere in the middle so 7 month January of 2022. Or late this year if GW keeps a 2 week release schedule which is unlikely because of corona and other systems like AoS
Codices with unknown date:
Adeptus Custodes
Astra Militarum
Chaos Daemons
Chaos Knights
Chaos Space Marines
Craftworlds
Genestealer Cults
Grey Knights (announced on May 29 )
Harlequins
Imperial Knights
T’au Empire
Thousand Sons (announced on May 29)
Tyranids
On the Topic of Tactics:
I had a game against DE with my Nids and got tabled on turn 5. His list was not even that competetive but when they have for example a 60 point model with 12 strong attacks there is not much you can do with Nids. I plan on bringing Custodes next what would you recommend agaisnt DE?
So I play Custodes and DE. Here's my recommendations for facing DE with the golden bananas:
1. You need anti-transport shooting and then anti-infantry shooting. Hurricane Bolter jetbikes are ideal for killing the contents of Raiders. To break the Raiders themselves, you'll likely want gun-Telemons or Caladius tanks. You can't rely on something like Venatarii or Terminators to do it because they need strat support and you're going to want to crack open 2-3 Raiders per-turn for the first two turns.
2. Do not risk fighting/charging them in melee if you can avoid it (spoiler: you won't be able to totally avoid it, but try). Archons and Incubi can both make you fight last, even if you Stooping Dive'd, and that is going to be very bad and very painful.
3. Save your Arcane Genetic Alchemy for when the Liquifiers are being spammed on you because it should overwrite their +1 to Wound (just like Transhuman does).
4. That said, in general, you want to try and board position the following matchups: Dreads vs. Liquifiers (the -1 damage also cancels out their boost), Sword + Board into Wyches (you'll be taking all their attacks on a 2+ unless they're Strife and use a strat or roll a 6 to wound) and Dreads into Incubi (I know, double duty for these guys). If you're using Terminators/Jetbikes try to keep them out of melee.
5. For stratagems, keep Emperor's Auspice for the Wyches/Bloodbrides (they use re-rolls the most) and Arcane Genetic Alchemy for the Incubi/Liquifiers (they benefit from bonus to wound, though only the former if Drazhar is around). It's also fair to Auspice Drazhar's target as he needs re-rolls quite a bit.
6. Kill Succubi with shooting. Do NOT enter combat with them. Mere mortals generally get wrecked fighting any combination of Tryptych Whip/Precision Blows/Competitive Edge/Dancer's Edge/Dark Lotus Toxin/Razorflail.
7. The name of the game will be just trying to hold objectives and score for 3 rounds. Do it for 3 and you probably can open a lead they can't overcome, only do it for 2 and they'll rip you apart.
8. Herd the Prey will almost certainly be taken against you. Have fast things so you can try and be in all table quarters. Remember, it's 2 points per table quarter you are not in from turns 2-5. So if you got tabled T4, they would score 8 points on it T5. You really need to hang onto these edges. Since you'll be trying to be in the quarters anyway, Engage will help you pick up points while doing so but it will also make you VERY feast or famine.
9. If you're fighting a Ssylyth/Urghul party build you're in good shape I think. We don't care about the tarpit. You're much more in danger from mass Dark Lance builds (most Druks have about 6-7 of them, but some get as high as 12-16 or even 20) or mass Wych builds (some guy just did great at a tournament with like 60 Wyches).
10. Eviscerating Fly-By is mostly a meme but if you DO see 20 Hellions stay away and shoot them ASAP.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Anyone wanna talk about how the new orks are going to be basically S/T:5 baseline?
I support GW making bold choices in the rules like this, and am eager to see what bold choices they make for custodes. Orks getting this is way less annoying than marines who kind of encroach on the design space of every faction
But always with the fear that GW makes no bold choices and puts out a boring bland placeholder of a codex for them.
nordsturmking wrote: Sisters and Admech are released two weeks apart. Orks are next then Grey Knights and Thousand Sons which leaves 11 Codices to be announced. So worst case our codex is the last that would mean another 13 before the Custodes one comes out if they release one codex per month it would be another 14 month so October 2022.
But it is more likely that our codex is somewhere in the middle so 7 month January of 2022. Or late this year if GW keeps a 2 week release schedule which is unlikely because of corona and other systems like AoS
Codices with unknown date:
Adeptus Custodes
Astra Militarum
Chaos Daemons
Chaos Knights
Chaos Space Marines
Craftworlds
Genestealer Cults
Grey Knights (announced on May 29 )
Harlequins
Imperial Knights
T’au Empire
Thousand Sons (announced on May 29)
Tyranids
On the Topic of Tactics:
I had a game against DE with my Nids and got tabled on turn 5. His list was not even that competetive but when they have for example a 60 point model with 12 strong attacks there is not much you can do with Nids. I plan on bringing Custodes next what would you recommend agaisnt DE?
So I play Custodes and DE. Here's my recommendations for facing DE with the golden bananas:
1. You need anti-transport shooting and then anti-infantry shooting. Hurricane Bolter jetbikes are ideal for killing the contents of Raiders. To break the Raiders themselves, you'll likely want gun-Telemons or Caladius tanks. You can't rely on something like Venatarii or Terminators to do it because they need strat support and you're going to want to crack open 2-3 Raiders per-turn for the first two turns.
2. Do not risk fighting/charging them in melee if you can avoid it (spoiler: you won't be able to totally avoid it, but try). Archons and Incubi can both make you fight last, even if you Stooping Dive'd, and that is going to be very bad and very painful.
3. Save your Arcane Genetic Alchemy for when the Liquifiers are being spammed on you because it should overwrite their +1 to Wound (just like Transhuman does).
4. That said, in general, you want to try and board position the following matchups: Dreads vs. Liquifiers (the -1 damage also cancels out their boost), Sword + Board into Wyches (you'll be taking all their attacks on a 2+ unless they're Strife and use a strat or roll a 6 to wound) and Dreads into Incubi (I know, double duty for these guys). If you're using Terminators/Jetbikes try to keep them out of melee.
5. For stratagems, keep Emperor's Auspice for the Wyches/Bloodbrides (they use re-rolls the most) and Arcane Genetic Alchemy for the Incubi/Liquifiers (they benefit from bonus to wound, though only the former if Drazhar is around). It's also fair to Auspice Drazhar's target as he needs re-rolls quite a bit.
6. Kill Succubi with shooting. Do NOT enter combat with them. Mere mortals generally get wrecked fighting any combination of Tryptych Whip/Precision Blows/Competitive Edge/Dancer's Edge/Dark Lotus Toxin/Razorflail.
7. The name of the game will be just trying to hold objectives and score for 3 rounds. Do it for 3 and you probably can open a lead they can't overcome, only do it for 2 and they'll rip you apart.
8. Herd the Prey will almost certainly be taken against you. Have fast things so you can try and be in all table quarters. Remember, it's 2 points per table quarter you are not in from turns 2-5. So if you got tabled T4, they would score 8 points on it T5. You really need to hang onto these edges. Since you'll be trying to be in the quarters anyway, Engage will help you pick up points while doing so but it will also make you VERY feast or famine.
9. If you're fighting a Ssylyth/Urghul party build you're in good shape I think. We don't care about the tarpit. You're much more in danger from mass Dark Lance builds (most Druks have about 6-7 of them, but some get as high as 12-16 or even 20) or mass Wych builds (some guy just did great at a tournament with like 60 Wyches).
10. Eviscerating Fly-By is mostly a meme but if you DO see 20 Hellions stay away and shoot them ASAP.
Take 3 telemons. Telemons are a hard counter for drukhari. Very hard for them to take out without dramatic compromises.
You want them to have gun and combat because they have to be able to mulch the MSU of drukhari squads, and a fist is fairly solid at that, and you need to drive them off objectives.
If you don't have telemons, don't bother, you lose.
The flamer on the fist is what makes it good against drukhari infantry, that's honestly better than the fist itself, which is pretty junk against DE except to stop them from charging in raiders to bog you down.
The Galatus is even better vs DEIMO; point for point it's almost exactly as durable - more in melee due to the -1 to hit - and it fights way better than a telemon vs DE, and its flamer shoots double the shots. Doesn't have the same ranged threat, but it's impossible to built a custodes list that actually has enough ranged threat to really matter vs DE so I don't think it's worth even trying. Three telemons with fists/cannons only kills one raider per turn at range even if all three can target the same one, and until you have the shooting to be be able to kill 2-3 raiders T1, it doesn't really matter .
yukishiro1 wrote: The flamer on the fist is what makes it good against drukhari infantry, that's honestly better than the fist itself, which is pretty junk against DE except to stop them from charging in raiders to bog you down.
The Galatus is even better vs DEIMO; point for point it's almost exactly as durable - more in melee due to the -1 to hit - and it fights way better than a telemon vs DE, and its flamer shoots double the shots. Doesn't have the same ranged threat, but it's impossible to built a custodes list that actually has enough ranged threat to really matter vs DE so I don't think it's worth even trying. Three telemons with fists/cannons only kills one raider per turn at range even if all three can target the same one, and until you have the shooting to be be able to kill 2-3 raiders T1, it doesn't really matter .
Deldar are rocking on the thin edge of overkill. Squads of 5 to 10 models are all you need to realistically trade with most heavy infantry in the game, and raider dark lances supress tanks pretty hard.
That's why you want the telemon by the by, it survives 6 to 10 dark lances best, and laughs at liquifiers in a way a galatus won't.
The shooting damage is actually perfectly placed for atritting raiders. But you want the str7 gun now and not the dual band AT gun.
With the new points nerf to Telemon, I'm really looking more at how a max squad of Venetari could do against DE. It's an 18 ablative wound unit, with a 2+/4++6+++, doesn't degrade, has fly, and twice the movement, for 40 points more, and is frankly, much better at objectives. With the strat, it's 24 shots of S6 AP2 D2 isn't bad either. Plus free DS. It doesn't get the -1 to wounds though.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Anyone wanna talk about how the new orks are going to be basically S/T:5 baseline?
Yeah, custodes are feeling less and less unique. Hey, at least we still have the 2+, 3++ saves.
And WS2, BS2, 3 wounds.
Plus codex coming up with it's own changes. You aren't expecting custodians to not be changed with new codex are you?
Yeah sucks for now but unless GW freezes all codexes forever somebody is always behind others.
At least the longer it takes for your codex come up the more powerful you are and will soon laugh as you will smash sisters, dark eldars etc at ease with S7 T7 W5 basic custodians firing assault 6 S6 -2 D3 custodian storm bolters
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Anyone wanna talk about how the new orks are going to be basically S/T:5 baseline?
Yeah, custodes are feeling less and less unique. Hey, at least we still have the 2+, 3++ saves.
And WS2, BS2, 3 wounds.
Plus codex coming up with it's own changes. You aren't expecting custodians to not be changed with new codex are you?
Yeah sucks for now but unless GW freezes all codexes forever somebody is always behind others.
At least the longer it takes for your codex come up the more powerful you are and will soon laugh as you will smash sisters, dark eldars etc at ease with S7 T7 W5 basic custodians firing assault 6 S6 -2 D3 custodian storm bolters
But seriously, I'll settle for an extra wound on infantry, 2 wounds on anything non-infantry, and multiple attack profiles on spears/axes.
That's why you want the telemon by the by, it survives 6 to 10 dark lances best, and laughs at liquifiers in a way a galatus won't.
The math on this doesn't check out; point for point the Galatus is comparable at surviving every major DE ranged profile to the Telemon and better at surviving in melee. While also costing less points, so you are not so out-MSUed. 3 Galatus are cheaper and more resilient than 2 Telemon, in addition to giving you more bodies on the table and non-degrading profiles. The only time a Telemon is arguably better is if you have only a single one that can be targeted and you can shadowkeepers it to absorb an entire round of DE shooting. But that never happens in the real world, they'll just switch to a better target once you pop shadowkeepers for the first DL.
And that's even before DT liq wracks went away with today's FAQ.
Don't get me wrong, Telemon are great. But Galatus are even better vs DE. They are far better at killing infantry, they survive equally well and better in melee, and they're cheaper so you can get more of them spread across the board. Trying to kill raiders from range is a waste of time with pure custodes, you'll never be able to do it well enough to matter unless you do something suicidal like taking 3 tanks and 3 telemon, which will just cause you to lose the game for other reasons.
That's why you want the telemon by the by, it survives 6 to 10 dark lances best, and laughs at liquifiers in a way a galatus won't.
The math on this doesn't check out; point for point the Galatus is comparable at surviving every major DE ranged profile to the Telemon and better at surviving in melee. While also costing less points, so you are not so out-MSUed. 3 Galatus are cheaper and more resilient than 2 Telemon, in addition to giving you more bodies on the table and non-degrading profiles. The only time a Telemon is arguably better is if you have only a single one that can be targeted and you can shadowkeepers it to absorb an entire round of DE shooting. But that never happens in the real world, they'll just switch to a better target once you pop shadowkeepers for the first DL.
And that's even before DT liq wracks went away with today's FAQ.
Don't get me wrong, Telemon are great. But Galatus are even better vs DE. They are far better at killing infantry, they survive equally well and better in melee, and they're cheaper so you can get more of them spread across the board. Trying to kill raiders from range is a waste of time with pure custodes, you'll never be able to do it well enough to matter unless you do something suicidal like taking 3 tanks and 3 telemon, which will just cause you to lose the game for other reasons.
*Shrugs* There was a reason that the people beating dark eldar were taking telemons and not galatuses, and I trust their judgement. We'll see what rules adjustments do to this though.
Who was beating DE with pure Custodes, period? I mean random games sure, but at the top level competitively? Wasn't happening as far as I'm aware. It was just a question of whether you were goin to lose comprehensively or at least make a good game of it.
Though the dread-heavy lists you did see were mostly 2x Telemon 3x Galatus, typically souped with guard or maybe even sisters.
nordsturmking wrote: Sisters and Admech are released two weeks apart. Orks are next then Grey Knights and Thousand Sons which leaves 11 Codices to be announced. So worst case our codex is the last that would mean another 13 before the Custodes one comes out if they release one codex per month it would be another 14 month so October 2022.
But it is more likely that our codex is somewhere in the middle so 7 month January of 2022. Or late this year if GW keeps a 2 week release schedule which is unlikely because of corona and other systems like AoS
Codices with unknown date:
Adeptus Custodes
Astra Militarum
Chaos Daemons
Chaos Knights
Chaos Space Marines
Craftworlds
Genestealer Cults
Grey Knights (announced on May 29 )
Harlequins
Imperial Knights
T’au Empire
Thousand Sons (announced on May 29)
Tyranids
On the Topic of Tactics:
I had a game against DE with my Nids and got tabled on turn 5. His list was not even that competetive but when they have for example a 60 point model with 12 strong attacks there is not much you can do with Nids. I plan on bringing Custodes next what would you recommend agaisnt DE?
So I play Custodes and DE. Here's my recommendations for facing DE with the golden bananas:
1. You need anti-transport shooting and then anti-infantry shooting. Hurricane Bolter jetbikes are ideal for killing the contents of Raiders. To break the Raiders themselves, you'll likely want gun-Telemons or Caladius tanks. You can't rely on something like Venatarii or Terminators to do it because they need strat support and you're going to want to crack open 2-3 Raiders per-turn for the first two turns.
2. Do not risk fighting/charging them in melee if you can avoid it (spoiler: you won't be able to totally avoid it, but try). Archons and Incubi can both make you fight last, even if you Stooping Dive'd, and that is going to be very bad and very painful.
3. Save your Arcane Genetic Alchemy for when the Liquifiers are being spammed on you because it should overwrite their +1 to Wound (just like Transhuman does).
4. That said, in general, you want to try and board position the following matchups: Dreads vs. Liquifiers (the -1 damage also cancels out their boost), Sword + Board into Wyches (you'll be taking all their attacks on a 2+ unless they're Strife and use a strat or roll a 6 to wound) and Dreads into Incubi (I know, double duty for these guys). If you're using Terminators/Jetbikes try to keep them out of melee.
5. For stratagems, keep Emperor's Auspice for the Wyches/Bloodbrides (they use re-rolls the most) and Arcane Genetic Alchemy for the Incubi/Liquifiers (they benefit from bonus to wound, though only the former if Drazhar is around). It's also fair to Auspice Drazhar's target as he needs re-rolls quite a bit.
6. Kill Succubi with shooting. Do NOT enter combat with them. Mere mortals generally get wrecked fighting any combination of Tryptych Whip/Precision Blows/Competitive Edge/Dancer's Edge/Dark Lotus Toxin/Razorflail.
7. The name of the game will be just trying to hold objectives and score for 3 rounds. Do it for 3 and you probably can open a lead they can't overcome, only do it for 2 and they'll rip you apart.
8. Herd the Prey will almost certainly be taken against you. Have fast things so you can try and be in all table quarters. Remember, it's 2 points per table quarter you are not in from turns 2-5. So if you got tabled T4, they would score 8 points on it T5. You really need to hang onto these edges. Since you'll be trying to be in the quarters anyway, Engage will help you pick up points while doing so but it will also make you VERY feast or famine.
9. If you're fighting a Ssylyth/Urghul party build you're in good shape I think. We don't care about the tarpit. You're much more in danger from mass Dark Lance builds (most Druks have about 6-7 of them, but some get as high as 12-16 or even 20) or mass Wych builds (some guy just did great at a tournament with like 60 Wyches).
10. Eviscerating Fly-By is mostly a meme but if you DO see 20 Hellions stay away and shoot them ASAP.
Really nicely detailed advise, thank you i'll try to follow it. Thankfuly I have 2 Telemons and 3 Caladius. I learned the hard way that you should really avoid the succubi.
yukishiro1 wrote: Who was beating DE with pure Custodes, period? I mean random games sure, but at the top level competitively? Wasn't happening as far as I'm aware. It was just a question of whether you were goin to lose comprehensively or at least make a good game of it.
Though the dread-heavy lists you did see were mostly 2x Telemon 3x Galatus, typically souped with guard or maybe even sisters.
tripple telemon and a big unit of venetari supported with trajan boosting the dreads. It is one of the few drukhari killer lists that has actually gone up against drukhari and killed them.
yukishiro1 wrote: Who was beating DE with pure Custodes, period? I mean random games sure, but at the top level competitively? Wasn't happening as far as I'm aware. It was just a question of whether you were goin to lose comprehensively or at least make a good game of it.
Though the dread-heavy lists you did see were mostly 2x Telemon 3x Galatus, typically souped with guard or maybe even sisters.
tripple telemon and a big unit of venetari supported with trajan boosting the dreads. It is one of the few drukhari killer lists that has actually gone up against drukhari and killed them.
yukishiro1 wrote: Who was beating DE with pure Custodes, period? I mean random games sure, but at the top level competitively? Wasn't happening as far as I'm aware. It was just a question of whether you were goin to lose comprehensively or at least make a good game of it.
Though the dread-heavy lists you did see were mostly 2x Telemon 3x Galatus, typically souped with guard or maybe even sisters.
tripple telemon and a big unit of venetari supported with trajan boosting the dreads. It is one of the few drukhari killer lists that has actually gone up against drukhari and killed them.
A lot of people have been sprinkling in telemons as a crack against deldar, but this is one of the few lists I know that really went the mile against repeatedly figbhting deldar, and it is all custodes.
I find it fascinating that list did so well against DE; I honestly don't understand how or why. I would have thought the DE players would just pick off everything outside the Telemon castle and then win on the mission and secondaries. That list kills one raider a turn at range except on the turn the Venatari come down, when it kills two, and it has virtually zero board presence. The DE player obviously can't kill the Telemon castle, but I don't see why that matters for winning the game. Would have loved to see what the DE players were trying to do in the games they lost and how it didn't work.
Has anyone run the numbers on Venetari against Deldar? Do we want lances or Bucklers? My instinct is to go for the best shooting, but I know they will close the distance, and then rip my guys to pieces. I still say max Venetari would be better for the cost than triple Telemon.
Definitely bucklers, the primary reason Venatari is good is being able to double the amount of shots with the pistols for 1CP, and you can't do that with the lances, even aside from losing the 2+ save, which is also a big deal.
yukishiro1 wrote: I find it fascinating that list did so well against DE; I honestly don't understand how or why. I would have thought the DE players would just pick off everything outside the Telemon castle and then win on the mission and secondaries. That list kills one raider a turn at range except on the turn the Venatari come down, when it kills two, and it has virtually zero board presence. The DE player obviously can't kill the Telemon castle, but I don't see why that matters for winning the game. Would have loved to see what the DE players were trying to do in the games they lost and how it didn't work.
The shield guard hold objectives good and the venetari trade supremely well once the raiders have been opened up.
The telemon are just immune to damage and so stop in and clear objectives pretty easily while slowly attriting the raider pack down.
It's only 4 shield guard. They die literally as soon as the DE player can shoot them with the raiders and wracks, which means T1 if the Custodes player goes first, or T2 if they don't. The Venatari die as soon as they come down from DS or reveal themselves if they start on the table, and I don't see how a 330 point unit "trades supremely well" with anything. Liq Wracks and DLs both obliterate infantry custodes.
I mean it obviously worked because the guy won, I just can't for the life of me understand how.
yukishiro1 wrote: It's only 4 shield guard. They die literally as soon as the DE player can shoot them with the raiders and wracks, which means T1 if the Custodes player goes first, or T2 if they don't. The Venatari die as soon as they come down from DS or reveal themselves if they start on the table, and I don't see how a 330 point unit "trades supremely well" with anything. Liq Wracks and DLs both obliterate infantry custodes.
I mean it obviously worked because the guy won, I just can't for the life of me understand how.
It takes 4 raiders to kill a single Custodes guardian with dark lances with re-rolls, bit of a waste of fire power. And liquifiers no longer get the dark technomancer buff. Venatari may die easy compared to the rest of the army but being able to drop them in after the raiders have already released the incubai basically guarantee at least some level of damage.
yukishiro1 wrote: It's only 4 shield guard. They die literally as soon as the DE player can shoot them with the raiders and wracks, which means T1 if the Custodes player goes first, or T2 if they don't. The Venatari die as soon as they come down from DS or reveal themselves if they start on the table, and I don't see how a 330 point unit "trades supremely well" with anything. Liq Wracks and DLs both obliterate infantry custodes.
I mean it obviously worked because the guy won, I just can't for the life of me understand how.
It takes 4 raiders to kill a single Custodes guardian with dark lances with re-rolls, bit of a waste of fire power. And liquifiers no longer get the dark technomancer buff. Venatari may die easy compared to the rest of the army but being able to drop them in after the raiders have already released the incubai basically guarantee at least some level of damage.
Dark Eldar aren't an auto win.
this was before the liquifier nerf.
But shieldstodes also are good against that.
As the only unit on the field that needs it, they suck up all the defensive buffs we get. They only need to last a couple turns.
Odd idea, but given how well Custodes have "transitioned" into 9th, even though we were a relatively early codex in 8th, we may be getting viewed as a faction that doesn't need the help of a new Codex. Then I saw they just dropped Sisters of Battle, which DEF didn't need the new Codex buff, and that got me thinking: Would you rather be a good codex at the beginning, or get the full power creep near the end, and be devastatingly broken for the last few months?
So with the new Sisters weapon profiles, I have to believe we are getting at minimum 2 damage spears/axes/lances. I feel like it's completely random who is getting new models now. Sisters get 4 new models one of which is an upgunned Rhino, two walkers, and a new HQ. Guard are getting a new Cadian box, a new HQ Command squad style unit (or Gaunts ghosts may be 5 models and a commisar?) But then TKSons are getting a new HQ and a new marine type?
All I want is a vehicle that is plastic and doesn't make me use chinese websites to buy, oh and doesn't flat out suck.
If axes go to 3 that means the average Warden has 12+ wounds damage per fight capability. Terminators and SCs get even worse, for almost half the cost of what other units with the same potential cost. The new Sister with the mecha suit costs 200+ and has the ability to go higher than 15 wounds per turn. If we go to flat 3, a SC is broken at 110 points. Some one before was saying the flat 4 for axes, and that would be crazy.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: If axes go to 3 that means the average Warden has 12+ wounds damage per fight capability. Terminators and SCs get even worse, for almost half the cost of what other units with the same potential cost. The new Sister with the mecha suit costs 200+ and has the ability to go higher than 15 wounds per turn. If we go to flat 3, a SC is broken at 110 points. Some one before was saying the flat 4 for axes, and that would be crazy.
My hope is the main melee profiles for weapons look something like this come an updated dex.
Interceptor Lance on the charge STRx2, AP-3, d3+1 damage
Interceptor Lance not on the charge STR+1, AP-3, 2 damage
Solarite Power Gauntlet STRx2, ap-3, 3dmg, Add -1 to hit to make choice between these and axes mean something.
Castellan Axe STR+3, AP-2, 3 damage
Guardian Spear STR+2, AP-3, 2 damage
Sword STR, AP-3, 2 damage
The only change I would make to the above is make the dagger double the cost, but unsaveable wounds. So it goes through Invulns and regular saves, and also nullifies FnP.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: The only change I would make to the above is make the dagger double the cost, but unsaveable wounds. So it goes through Invulns and regular saves, and also nullifies FnP.
Could maybe make it 1 attack that if it wounds, causes 1 mortal wound and the attack sequence ends?
So you pay points for an attack that can result in 1mw. Since the Custodes dex has no real sources of MW.
The spear should have a sweep profile that distinguishes it from the axe; it's a bladed weapon, not a thrusting one, and they clearly swing them in sweeping motions based on how they're modeled, so it makes total sense. Make it either +2S -3AP 2D or S:U -2AP D1 with 2x attacks. Same cost as the axes, which would be +3S -3AP 3D with no alternative profile.
The misericordia ought to be free, it's stupid that you pay points for it and it therefore messes up list building and results in you having to pull it on and off your models as you change your list. It shouldn't even be an attack per se, it should be an ability that activates after the unit has made all its attacks, if there are any models within engagement range of the unit that have lost wounds and have only one wound remaining. For each such model, roll a dice: on a 2+, that model takes a mortal wound.
Flavorful and fluffy, occasionally clutch to get that last wound off something, but not powerful enough to actually pay points for.
Since updating our rules is a topic of discussion I thought I'd also post my personal take rules updates here. Depending on how long we still have to wait I might try to houserule some of this with my buddies so I'd like to get opinions:
Spoiler:
General statline buffs:
All Custodes infantry and bikes get +1 wound and +1 attack. This seems in line with alle the buffs going around in the 9th ed codices. Other than that, there is not much you can change on their statline, since it's already pretty premium, though especially the extra wound feels needed.
Note that these general buffs hinge on the assumption that custodes retain their inherent 4+ invuln and 3+ invuln exclusively on their storm shields. If they lose their 3+ invuln on storm shields as their "gimmick" they need something else to make up for it.
Weapon upgrades:
Note that I would leave the shooting profiles of the weapons untouched. I think they are fine, though one can argue that the spears and axes should be changes to assault 3 or something along those lines.
-Sentinel Blade:
S:+1, AP-3, Dmg D3
Every time the bearer uses this weapon in the fight phase, he can make one additional attack with this weapon
-Guardian Spear:
Auric Blade Barrier: whenever an enemy model makes a melee attack against this unit, any model equipped with a guardian spear can attempt to block ONE incoming enemy attack. Chose one enemy hit roll made against this unit for every model attempting to block an attack. Roll one D6 for each attempt to block, if the roll exceeds your opponents hit roll the attack is blocked and has no effect.
Two or more friendly models equipped with guardian spears can attempt to block one attack together, if you chose to do this, roll one additional D6 for every model attempting to assist in blocking an enemy attack, if the value exceeds your opponents hit roll, the attack is blocked and has no effect. (Disclaimer: basically the 7th ed block rule)
Every time the bearer fights with this weapon, at the beginning of the fight phase chose one of the following profiles to use in the fight phase:
Sweeping Strike: S: User, AP -2, Dmg 1
Every time the bearer uses the sweeping strike profile of this weapon, double the attacks characteristic of this units profile.
Piercing Strike: S:+2, AP -3, Dmg 2
-[u]Castellan Axe:
S:+3, AP -2, Dmg 3
-Interceptor Lance:
S:+1, AP -3, Dmg D3
Whenever a model equipped with this weapon finishes a charge move, change the weapon profile to: S:+1, AP -3, Dmg 3. In addition, every time a model equipped with an interceptor lance finishes a charge move, you can re-roll the wound roll.
Shield Hosts:
If your army detachment is battleforged you can chose one of the following shield hosts. Every >Adeptus Custodes< unit in your detachment gains the keyword of the chosen Shield Host.
-Dread Host:
Cold Aggression: Every time an >Adeptus Custodes< unit with the >Dread Host< keyword finishes a charge move, that unit gains +1Strength and +1Attack until the end of the fight phase.
Warlord Trait:
All-Seeing Annihilator:
-Whenever an >Adeptus Custodes< >Dreadhost< unit within 6" of this warlord rolls an unmodified 6 in the fight phase, that attack generates one extra hit.
-Whenever your warlord scores an unmodified wound roll of 6, that attack does one mortal wound in addition to any other damage.
Relic:
Admonimortis: replaces the bearers castellan axe
S: x2, AP -3: Dmg 3
Whenever the bearer finishes a charge move roll one D6, on a 2+ the enemy unit suffers D3 mortal wounds.
Dreadhost Strat:
Golden Light of the Moraides(1CP/2CP): unchanged.
-Shadowkeepers:
Jailers of unspeakable Nightmares: Every enemy unit within 3" of an >Adeptus Custodes< >Shadowkeepers< unit must subtract 1 from its attack profile to a minimum of 1. Note that this rule is not cumulative if an enemy unit is within 3" of two friendly >Adeptus Custodes< >Shadowkeepers< units.
Warlord Trait:
Lockwarden:
-Whenever your warlord makes a melee attack against an enemy character, subtract 1 from that enemy characters save characteristic including invulnerable saves.
-At the start of the fight phase, choose one enemy character within 3" of your warlod. Whenever the chosen enemy character fights against your warlord, halve the enemy characters attacks (rounding up). Not that this is not cumulative with the Jailers of unspeakable Nightmares rule.
Relic:
Statis Oubilette:
Can only be used once per battle. At the start of the fight phase, choose an enemy character within 3" of the bearer, until your next turn the enemy character can not use it's invulnerable saves or any rules that ignore damage. In addition, halve the move characteristic of the enemy character until your next turn.
-Solar Watch:
Auric Wings: Add 1 to every advance and charge roll made by an >Adeptus Custodes< >Solar Watch< unit.
Warlord Trait:
Sally Forth: at the beginning of the movement phase, choose a friendly >Adeptus Custodes< >Solar Watch< unit within 6" of your warlord. That unit can attempt to charge even if it advanced this turn.
Relic:
Swiftsilver Talon: Relic Interceptor Lance
S:+1, AP: -3, Dmg 2
Whenever a model equipped with this weapon finishes a charge move, change the weapon profile to: S:+2, AP -3, Dmg 4 . In addition, every time a model equipped with an interceptor lance finishes a charge move, you can re-roll the wound roll.
Solar Watch Strat:
The Eagle's Strike (1CP):
At the end of the movement phase, select one friendly >Adeptus Custodes< >Solar Watch< unit. That unit is eligible to shoot and charge even if it fell back this turn.
-Aquilan Shield:
Shield Wall: whenever an attack is allocated to a friendly >Adeptus Custodes< >Aquilan Shield< >Infantry< unit, subtract 1 from the damage characteristic of the enemy attack to a minimum of 1.
Warlord Trait:
Revered Companion: When resolving an attack against this warlord, subtract 1 from the wound roll. In addition, enemy units can not re-roll their hit roll when resolving an attack against this warlord.
Relic:
Praesidius: Relic Storm shield (3+ invuln)
Whenever resolving an attack against this warlord, the enemy unit can not re-roll their wound roll. In addition, when resolving an attack against this warlord, halve any incoming damage rounding up. Note that this replaces the Aquilan Shield Shield Wall rule.
Aquilan Shield Strat:
Golden Bulwark (1CP/2CP):
When resolving an attack against an >Aquilan Shield< Custodian Guard unit equipped with storm shields, until the end of the phase, subtract 1 from the attacks wound roll. In addition until the end of the phase, enemy units can not re-roll their hit-roll when targeting this unit.
Standard Warlord Traits:
-Superior Creation: unchanged
-Radiant Mantle: unchanged
-Impregnable Mind: unchanged
-Peerless Warrior: This warlord always fights first in the fight phase.
-Emperor's Companion: At the start of your turn, this unit regains 1 lost wound
-Champion of the Imperium: increase the range of aura abilities of this warlord by 3"
Captain Commander Traits:
-Strategic Mastermind: unchanged
-Bane of Abominations: unchanged
-Slayer of the Unlcean: when resolving an attack made by this model, on an unmodified attack roll of 6, the attack wounds automatically and does double damage.
-Indomitable constitution: increase the toughness characteristic of this warlord by 1
-Master of Melee: at the end of the fight phase whenever this model has fought, chose one enemy unit in engangement range. That enemy unit suffers D3 mortal wounds.
-Unstoppable Destroyer: choose one enemy unit within 3" of this warlord at the beginning of the fight phase, that unit is not eligible to fight until all other units have done so.
-Inspirational Exemplar: Every friendly >Imperium< unit within 6" of this warlord can re-roll their moral and ignores combat attrition.
-Defiant to the Last: roll one D6 the first time this warlord is slain. On a 3+ this warlord returns to the battlefield with 2 D3 wounds remaining. Place this warlord at the nearest point where it was slain, but out of engagement range of enemy models.
I am still in the process of thinking about the standard codex relics, but I'll update this post once I have some ideas on those. Until then, thanks for reading and let me know what you think.
As I said, this was just a fun little project for me. I don't claim to have all the answers or the best answers how to best update custodes, but I gave it my best shot.
Edit: I completely forgot the emissaries imperatus shield host....but can you blame me? If you have an idea on what to do with them, let me know.
Edit2:
Non Shield Host Relics:
(Disclaimer: again, this is assuming we keep the 3+ invuln as our gimmick)
-Auric Aquilas: unchanged
-Eagle's Eye: unchanged
If we lose the 3+ invuln:
-[u]Auric Aquilas: bike captain only. Whenever an attack is allocated to this unit, subtract 1 from that attacks wound roll. In addition enemies can not re-roll their wound roll when targeting this model (both melee and shooting)
-Eagle's Eye: whenever an attack is allocated to this unit, a hit-roll of 1-3 always fails.
-The Praetorian Plate: Terminator Captain only. Whenever an attack is allocated to this unit, a wound-roll of 1-3 always fails.
-Gatekeeper:
Relic Guardian Spear: Melee: S+3, AP -3, Dmg 2; Shooting: 24", Rapid Fire 3, S 5, AP -1, Dmg 2
Abilities: Overwatch hit roll hit on 3+ rather on 6+. In addition the bearer can attempt to use the "Auric Blade Barrier" rule for Guardian Spears on 3 incoming attacks instead of just one.
-The Veiled Blade:
Relic Sentinel Blade: Melee: S+1, AP -3, Dmg D3; Shooting: 12", Pistol 3, S 4, AP -1, Dmg 1
Abilities: Whenever an enemy unit within engagement range of the bearer chooses to fall back, roll one D6. On a 3+ the enemy unit can not fall back.
-Emperor's Light:
Relic Misericordia: Melee: S user, AP -2, Dmg 1
Abilities: Each time the bearer fights, he can make one additional attack with this weapon. Attacks made by this weapon ignore any invulnerable saves.
-Wrath Angelis:
Replaces a Vexilla Magnifica: at the beginning of the fight phase, the bearer can choose one enemy unit within 3". This unit is not eligible to fight until all other units have done so.
-Auric Shackles:
At the end of the movement phase, chose one enemy unit within 12" of the bearer. Until your next command phase, that enemy unit halves its move characteristic (rounded up).
-Fulminaris Aggressor:
Replaces Vexilla Imperius: Shooting: 12", S 5, AP-2, Dmg 1; Melee: S +2, AP -2, Dmg 1
Abilities: Attacks made with this weapons shooting profile automatically hit. In addition, at the end of the movement phase, chose one enemy unit within 6" of the bearer. That unit suffers D3 mortal wounds.
-Raiment of Sorrows:
Roll a D6 each time a friendly >Adeptus Custodes< >Infantry< or >Biker< unit within 6" of the bearer would lose a wound. On a 6+ the wound is not lost.
-The Castellan's Mark:
Once per game use only: At the beginning of the shooting phase, chose one firendly >Adeptus Custodes< >Infantry< or >Biker< unit within 6" of the bearer. This unit can move as if it were the movement phase.
-Faith Absolute:
Replaces Vexilla Defensor: Whenever a friendly >Adeptus Custodes< unit within 6" of the bearer would lose a wound as a result of a mortal wound, roll one D6. On a 4+ that wound is not lost.
So I've seen a few forums talking about how the obvious misprint about Paragon suits nullifying d1 weapons, isn't a glitch. It might be GW intended way of making vehicles powerful again. And I like it. D1 weapons like Bolters and Lasguns are now worthless against any vehicle with this "special rule".
I kinda think it would kill us and make us great at the same time. We would still be able to shoot them off the table, but at the same time it would make a legal precedent for how to buff Custodes.
Or it's an obvious misprint that will be faq'd in the next two weeks.
No, it's obviously a typo. There is zero reason that paragons would ignore D1 while Vahl doesn't - her suit is described as being much better than theirs. And that's even putting aside how it makes no sense anyway for paragons to do it when dreads and literally every other model in every other book doesn't.
Anyone who tries to tell you that it's intentional is trying to abuse an obvious typo (which Celestine has too BTW, and is actually a bigger problem since she doesn't cost 3x as much as she should thanks to yet another typo).
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So I've seen a few forums talking about how the obvious misprint about Paragon suits nullifying d1 weapons, isn't a glitch. It might be GW intended way of making vehicles powerful again. And I like it. D1 weapons like Bolters and Lasguns are now worthless against any vehicle with this "special rule".
I kinda think it would kill us and make us great at the same time. We would still be able to shoot them off the table, but at the same time it would make a legal precedent for how to buff Custodes.
Or it's an obvious misprint that will be faq'd in the next two weeks.
I'm still very much in the camp that thinks this is an obvious misprint, same with the points cost. I'm pretty sure it's not meant to be 240p per paragon war suit.
Being immune to D1 also kinda goes against their game design philosophy, where everything should be able to wound everything.
I agree it is very likely a misprint, however, I can see the possability of such a powerful rule fighting back the overwhelming power creep and growing irrelevance of vehicles in the game. If the new Admech can one shot any non-titan vehicle in the game turn 1, then what is the point of making lists with transports? This fights back against this and while we don't have to go back to AV charts, I feel it does away with the stupidity of "Anything can wound anything". Custodes should have a negate damage rule across the board, not just on dreads.
So, there is a new plastic Contemptor that will be released in the near future. Do you guys think they will add the new weapons load out to Custodes? The twin autocannon isn't going to do much, but adding a cyclone missile launcher might give us a decent mobile shooting platform.
cuda1179 wrote: So, there is a new plastic Contemptor that will be released in the near future. Do you guys think they will add the new weapons load out to Custodes? The twin autocannon isn't going to do much, but adding a cyclone missile launcher might give us a decent mobile shooting platform.
I would LOVE for a mobile dakka platform in plastic that isn't over 100 USD and completely worthless. I'd settle for the one with the dual LC and the missile launcher, for 110 points.
cuda1179 wrote: So, there is a new plastic Contemptor that will be released in the near future. Do you guys think they will add the new weapons load out to Custodes? The twin autocannon isn't going to do much, but adding a cyclone missile launcher might give us a decent mobile shooting platform.
Wait, they have announced a new plastic contemptor for space marines? When?
cuda1179 wrote: So, there is a new plastic Contemptor that will be released in the near future. Do you guys think they will add the new weapons load out to Custodes? The twin autocannon isn't going to do much, but adding a cyclone missile launcher might give us a decent mobile shooting platform.
Wait, they have announced a new plastic contemptor for space marines? When?
I think he is referencing the new 30k Boxed sets coming next month (?)
cuda1179 wrote: So, there is a new plastic Contemptor that will be released in the near future. Do you guys think they will add the new weapons load out to Custodes? The twin autocannon isn't going to do much, but adding a cyclone missile launcher might give us a decent mobile shooting platform.
Wait, they have announced a new plastic contemptor for space marines? When?
I think he is referencing the new 30k Boxed sets coming next month (?)
I am. I don't think anyone is going to argue that the 30k models won't get 40k rules. The only question is if it will be marines only, or if Custodes can get a taste too. While we're on the subject, does anyone think the new Contemptor will have weapons options? It looks to be an improvement over the old one, and that had an option, so I'd assume it would at least have one more optional arm. Perhaps a plasma cannon? That could work for us too.
No thanks on PCs, I would never want another 1 damage weapon. Even if they made it D2/3 with overcharge. No thank you. We need Grav flux bombards or something like the C Beam Cannon.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: No thanks on PCs, I would never want another 1 damage weapon. Even if they made it D2/3 with overcharge. No thank you. We need Grav flux bombards or something like the C Beam Cannon.
Oh, well in that case, how about a twin linked lascannon? That with a cyclone missile launcher would certainly help our ranged anti armor game without needing a Land Raider.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: No thanks on PCs, I would never want another 1 damage weapon. Even if they made it D2/3 with overcharge. No thank you. We need Grav flux bombards or something like the C Beam Cannon.
Oh, well in that case, how about a twin linked lascannon? That with a cyclone missile launcher would certainly help our ranged anti armor game without needing a Land Raider.
The best anti-armor you can put on a Contemptor is double vulkite culverins I believe. You then take 3 of them for 48 shots. Ours would hit on 2's and get re-rolls from Trajan.
I looked up the weapons they used to be able to put on Contemptors, and it said C Beam cannons, those are basically anti-matter cannons, so I'll take those please.
To make me happy it would be enough to have all the weapon options available in HH. I want captains with spear and shield as well as basic troops custodes with shields and powerfists.
If we changed the Current contemptor to be a dual HB in the CCW instead of a Storm Bolter, that would make it very appealing, or make it so that it's a heavy flamer even. I'd love for 12" 2d6 S5 AP1 D1 shooting base standard.
Also change Archeotech Munitions to make variable shot weapons auto max their shots, so flamers become Assault 6, or Telemons plasma shooters become heavy 12, auto hitting.
I need some advice. How would you tackle a competitive necron list, that is in all probability going to run the nightbringer and at least 2 big warrior blobs?
Would you try to ignore the nightbringer as best as possible and play the mission? Is is even feasible to ignore him?
Here is a list I was thinking about running. I am not sure about the achillus against necrons honestly.
Necrons should fear you no matter what you bring. They have very weak melee, and no real good source of MWs. Go ham. Your guardians should not worry about a single thing in the back field, and your venetari should have no worries mopping up after your telemon.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Necrons should fear you no matter what you bring. They have very weak melee, and no real good source of MWs. Go ham. Your guardians should not worry about a single thing in the back field, and your venetari should have no worries mopping up after your telemon.
A silent king based army is very strong into custodes IMHO
Triple C'tan destroys Custodes pretty thoroughly, it's a very hard counter against elite armies that rely on invuln saves, and Custodes can only really do damage in two phases, so the C'tan live a long time.
Right, he said Night Bringer and two big warrior blobs. Hardly a tough list to outscore on just castling objectives. The Telemon can be a Distraction carnifex, and the Venetari will slaughter the warrior mobs.
So what about the list? Should I scrap something in particular? Is it fine this way? As I said, I'm really not sure about the achillus against necrons, because I feel that few, high quality attacks, helps against rather few necron units.
Any of our Naughts are great choices, however the Telemon is a breed apart, literally. It's twice as hard to take down, anything it hits in melee is severely hurt, and it's got great ranged options. But you can take two of the spear naughts for the cost, which may be a better option if you are going for board control. You're choice.
I would drop the Sag though, unless you plan on pushing them up the board. Using them for camping is ok, but 3 shield bois cost just 1 point more and are much better campers. Just fyi
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:Right, he said Night Bringer and two big warrior blobs. Hardly a tough list to outscore on just castling objectives. The Telemon can be a Distraction carnifex, and the Venetari will slaughter the warrior mobs.
Thanks for the advice. I'm not that confident about the venatari though. A 5 man squad with pistols won't kill a 20 man warrior blob even with superior firing patterns. They are very good I completely agree with you on that, but they won't slaughter necron warrior blobs in one activation.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:Any of our Naughts are great choices, however the Telemon is a breed apart, literally. It's twice as hard to take down, anything it hits in melee is severely hurt, and it's got great ranged options. But you can take two of the spear naughts for the cost, which may be a better option if you are going for board control. You're choice.
I would drop the Sag though, unless you plan on pushing them up the board. Using them for camping is ok, but 3 shield bois cost just 1 point more and are much better campers. Just fyi
One telemon was always a fixture in my list, I am however thinking about taking a second one. I'm not sure I'd lose too much board presence that way though...
The achillus is awesome, but I think it has no real targets against necrons....like what are efficient necron targets for the achillus?
It'd be great against the Silent King, but you'd have to actually get it there first (and in good enough shape to survive the fights last and get to strike back), which is not going to happen against a good opponent.
The Galatus is just better than the Achillus almost all the time, unfortunately. But that doesn't mean the Achillus is bad per se...just not as good as the other one.
I can't tell if Custode would benefit from a lot of the special rules we see getting trotted out for other factions/characters.
The multi-attack pofiles, the MW on melee hits, the can attack again if an attack misses, etc.
I was thinking about the following idea. Instead of CP, make a unit able to cost more for always on strats. pay 20points for VOTBG on a group of wardens, pay 30 points to give bikers the double shoot strat.
Custodes are all supposed to be one-man armies. They train to fight as a group of individuals. That's a reason I really don't like aura buff characters for Custodes, they really don't look up to anyone as inspiration (other than the Emperor really).
Yeah, the fact that they operate in units at all is basically an unfortunate result of the way the game's basic mechanics work, ideally they'd all be individual models.
Hey Guys,
I got a few € for a new army (I sold my necrons). Could you give me a few hints why custodes are Good and wich Models i should buy?
My Plan was:
1 Box of Jetbikes
2 Boxes of the Guards
1 Box of Terminators
1 Trajann Valoris.
With some More € i would buy More jetbikes and More Termis.
Is That a Good Path? And why should i buy them and Not just SM / Dark Angels Deathwing for example.
Gesundheit wrote: Hey Guys,
I got a few € for a new army (I sold my necrons). Could you give me a few hints why custodes are Good and wich Models i should buy?
My Plan was:
1 Box of Jetbikes
2 Boxes of the Guards
1 Box of Terminators
1 Trajann Valoris.
With some More € i would buy More jetbikes and More Termis.
Is That a Good Path? And why should i buy them and Not just SM / Dark Angels Deathwing for example.
Thanks anyway!
That sounds like a fine plan, can't go wrong with custodian guard boxes and trajann.
Custodian guard with shield and sword are better right now than custodian guard with guardian spears because of the juicy 3+ invuln, but we don't know what our 9th Ed codex will bring.
With the two boxes of custodian guard you can build 2 squads of 4 shield guard, one standard shield captain and one vexillus praetor. With Trajann, the termis and the bikes that's about 1300 points. So not a bad starting point and it gives you options for a 1000p game.
If you plan to expand, buy another box of bikes so you can build a bike captain, who is our best hq choice. From there you can expand on terminators or more custodian guard and you can definitely build decent lists with that.
Our arguably best units are forgeworld units though. All the forgeworld dreadnoughts are amazing with the telemon being the standout. The venatari are one of our best shooting units and the saggitarum are also quite good and flexible.
Forgeworld units are more expensive though and you have to work with resin instead of plastic.
And finally why should you go with custodes over dark angels or other space marines? Imo you should go with the faction that more appeals to you visually and that you can see yourself painting without it becoming a complete chore.
From a competitive standpoint you can make both work imo (if you use forgeworld units for custodes), but the dark angels are the stronger option competitively.
Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]
Gametype: Matched
List Stratagems: [Reference] Core Stratagems, Arcane Genetic Alchemy, Archeotech Munitions, Auramite and Adamantium, Blood Games Veterans, Fortress of Willpower, Fraternity of Heroes , Indomitable Engines, Slayers of Nightmares, Superior Fire Patterns, The Emperor's Auspice, Vengeance of the Machine Spirit
Shield Host: Emissaries Imperatus
+ HQ +
Captain-General Trajann Valoris [10 PL, 190pts]
Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 175pts]: Hurricane Bolter
Well, you only have 2/5 troops slots filled so unless I read it wrong, you don't qualify for Battalion. Lose two Vertus and add a Sag squad, and you should be all set.
Also - Talons on Terminators are pointless. Terminators shouldn't be taking down chaff, like at all. They should be character hunting.
And in that regard, Allarus are just better, in most ways.
Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]
Gametype: Matched
List Stratagems: [Reference] Core Stratagems, Arcane Genetic Alchemy, Archeotech Munitions, Auramite and Adamantium, Blood Games Veterans, Fortress of Willpower, Fraternity of Heroes , Indomitable Engines, Slayers of Nightmares, Superior Fire Patterns, The Emperor's Auspice, Vengeance of the Machine Spirit
Shield Host: Emissaries Imperatus
+ HQ +
Captain-General Trajann Valoris [10 PL, 190pts]
Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 175pts]: Hurricane Bolter
Trajan with Banner and 5 guardian middle of the board, bikes rush, sagitarium hold back field and DR helps whenever need
List looks workable, a couple of things though: why emissaries imperatus shield host?
Depending on whether you have a 4th venatari: if you do, drop one spear guard and switch the talon/firepike on one aquilon to powerfist/bolter and add another venatari. Drop the misericordias on the one venatari and biker and equip all your sagittarum with misericordias.
If you don't have a 4th venatari: switch firepike/talon on the aquilon to fist/bolter....it's always the better loadout. Drop the 2 misericordias on venatari and bikes and switch your 2 guard with guardian spear to sword/shield. Guardian spears are not very good unfortunately.
Why would I rather add another venatari? Because it's 4 extra very high quality shots (with superior firing patterns) on a very good, very mobile unit.
So, as odd as it is to say, the bikes are our weakest unit by far. Ditch them and take a second telemon, or more shield squads to hold objectives. I can't tell if this is a TAC list or just a have fun list. You seem to have easy access to FW models, so perhaps money is no issue, but generally, stay away from bikes, and focus on models that can A. Camp objectives, and B. take out threats ASAP. Telemons are great for both.
Its patrol not battalion, I made it in phone and missed that one.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:So, as odd as it is to say, the bikes are our weakest unit by far. Ditch them and take a second telemon, or more shield squads to hold objectives. I can't tell if this is a TAC list or just a have fun list. You seem to have easy access to FW models, so perhaps money is no issue, but generally, stay away from bikes, and focus on models that can A. Camp objectives, and B. take out threats ASAP. Telemons are great for both.
I second that the telemon is amazing, but don't get discouraged taking jetbikes. What Fezzik says is correct...well partly. They are absolutely not our weakest unit, but they are not as good as they used to be, cause of constant power creep and lots of efficient ways to remove them, but in a vacuum they are still a very decent unit. They can work as anti hore tools with their hurricane bolters or as reliable anti tank with their missles (when combined with the archeotech ammunition stratagem).
Don't go all out on Forgeworld right away. As I said you can make a decent list, even for small local tournaments, without Forgeworld models and you can find out if you like the faction enough to commit spending premium dollar on Forgeworld stuff. You probably won't win a GT without Forgeworld units though, but I am just now assuming that that's not the goal
Archeotech munitions is a waste of a CP on a unit that rarely comes off anyway. Ok, it hits with re-roll 1s. Now lets say it's fighting a T8 vehicle. It has a 50% chance of wounding, then the opponent gets to save, likely on 6s, then it's still only likely to do 3 damage on average. I'd say bolters are better per sheer weight of fire against anything. 3 bikes within RF range with bolters do about 1 wound. The missile bikes do exactly 1, for 3 damage, by averages.
Not much better, but the anti-horde is infinitely better.
YMMV - But I tend to leave bikes behind for either the tanks or the Telemon. And I have an ALL Bike List I spent 6 weeks painting. It hurts.
EDIT - Then again, BLood game Veterans give MWs to 6s, so that might be hella good for bolters.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Archeotech munitions is a waste of a CP on a unit that rarely comes off anyway. Ok, it hits with re-roll 1s. Now lets say it's fighting a T8 vehicle. It has a 50% chance of wounding, then the opponent gets to save, likely on 6s, then it's still only likely to do 3 damage on average. I'd say bolters are better per sheer weight of fire against anything. 3 bikes within RF range with bolters do about 1 wound. The missile bikes do exactly 1, for 3 damage, by averages.
Not much better, but the anti-horde is infinitely better.
YMMV - But I tend to leave bikes behind for either the tanks or the Telemon. And I have an ALL Bike List I spent 6 weeks painting. It hurts.
EDIT - Then again, BLood game Veterans give MWs to 6s, so that might be hella good for bolters.
The missles on the jetbikes natively re-roll all wounds against vehicles though. So it's a lot more wounds actually.
Edit: also the blood game veterans stratagem does not do MWs on 6s, but rather makes 6s to hit auto wound.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So I just ran it back through and you are right, with the re-rolling wounds it jumps from 3, to 6. Give it up for Melta Missiles and 275 points.
What are we arguing about here? I just made a point that bikes are not the weakest unit from our entire roster, which they certainly aren't. And that they can provide reliable anti-horde and anti-tank dmg, which they can.
So especially people starting a custodes army shouldn't be discouraged getting bikes as a blanket statement. Getting two boxes of bikes to get a bike captain, which is our best generic hq anyway, and to have the option to run a 3-5 man squad of bikes is not a bad thing.
no our weakest unit are spear guard.
45pts for a 3 wound 2/4+ model with 3 str 6 ap3 Dd3 attacks and a master crafted bolter.
135pts for a unit of 3 that does very little damage and dies on average to 2 buffed lazer chickens or a plague burst crawler in one shooting phase.
if they were 120pts they would be competitive, but reducing our points by that much would make us oppressive to anything but competitive builds.
As is, giving them +1 wound is useless, but sweeping attack profile (double attacks for 1 damage) and an extra shot (assault 3) would make them worth the points.
Give swords +1 attack and make them pistol 4. Guardians are now fixed.
Eihnlazer wrote: no our weakest unit are spear guard.
45pts for a 3 wound 2/4+ model with 3 str 6 ap3 Dd3 attacks and a master crafted bolter.
135pts for a unit of 3 that does very little damage and dies on average to 2 buffed lazer chickens or a plague burst crawler in one shooting phase.
if they were 120pts they would be competitive, but reducing our points by that much would make us oppressive to anything but competitive builds.
As is, giving them +1 wound is useless, but sweeping attack profile (double attacks for 1 damage) and an extra shot (assault 3) would make them worth the points.
Give swords +1 attack and make them pistol 4. Guardians are now fixed.
Would giving the basic infantry a sweeping attack even if it was much weaker be too strong? In theory the one weakness custodies has is being unable to bitchslap a horde all at once while they can stab most elites in the face enough times to kill them.
Eihnlazer wrote: no our weakest unit are spear guard.
45pts for a 3 wound 2/4+ model with 3 str 6 ap3 Dd3 attacks and a master crafted bolter.
135pts for a unit of 3 that does very little damage and dies on average to 2 buffed lazer chickens or a plague burst crawler in one shooting phase.
if they were 120pts they would be competitive, but reducing our points by that much would make us oppressive to anything but competitive builds.
As is, giving them +1 wound is useless, but sweeping attack profile (double attacks for 1 damage) and an extra shot (assault 3) would make them worth the points.
Give swords +1 attack and make them pistol 4. Guardians are now fixed.
I only disagree that giving our Infantry +1 wound would be useless. I think it's still a needed boost in survivability. Not against robo chickens or dark lances sure, but there are enough flat dmg3 weapons in the game that hurt us right now.
Completely agree on the sweeping profile on the spears...and the normal profile needs dmg2
Giving our basic troop model attack profiles that until now have only been given to major characters or named models seems like a bad idea. I feel like +1 wound and making the damage of spears and swords a flat 2 would be amazing. Then again, what if Axes were D3+1? So you could never do less than spears or swords.
given the number of "limited" releases with only a single HQ unit to accompany the release, i'd wager we'd also only get a single HQ unit, which i HOPE is a sisters HQ unit (maybe a sister HQ that can be made into a "sisters character" in the elite slot, al la the Vexilus preator, or a marine Apothecary or Techmarine).
however, they have made a sustained effort to "level up" the codex's, by improving lesser used units in most of them so all have a viable role in the army. I'd say we'd most likely see efforts focused on the Wardens, given they are a comparatively poor choice in a crowded Elites section, and maybe the plastic comptemptor dread (same basic problem, its not "bad", theirs just better choices for elites).
given the number of "limited" releases with only a single HQ unit to accompany the release, i'd wager we'd also only get a single HQ unit, which i HOPE is a sisters HQ unit (maybe a sister HQ that can be made into a "sisters character" in the elite slot, al la the Vexilus preator, or a marine Apothecary or Techmarine).
however, they have made a sustained effort to "level up" the codex's, by improving lesser used units in most of them so all have a viable role in the army. I'd say we'd most likely see efforts focused on the Wardens, given they are a comparatively poor choice in a crowded Elites section, and maybe the plastic comptemptor dread (same basic problem, its not "bad", theirs just better choices for elites).
I agree, though I am pessimistic about the sisters hq. I'd like to see one for sure, but I'm not sure GW is going to deliver.
Also agree on the wardens. This is just my wild guess, but since fight last abiltites are the new rage, I think it's not unlikely that wardens are going to get some fight last ability. Maybe even similar to but a bit more powerful/reliable than the incubi fight last.
If they give some attention to Contemptor dreads, my guess is that they'll provide some points upgrades/strats which will also work with the forgeworld Contemptors. Those sell like hot cakes anyway, but they'll never include them in the codex because FW.
If everyone has a "fight last" ability, then Wardens still lose to most of those units. We need to give Wardens something to shore up our weaknesses. Either give them anti-psyker abilities, ( or make Sisters troops in their own detachment) or give them a great overwatch ability. Overwatch on 2+ with a sort of Heroic Intervention overwatch. The ability to overwatch when not being the unit selected in the charge.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: If everyone has a "fight last" ability, then Wardens still lose to most of those units. We need to give Wardens something to shore up our weaknesses. Either give them anti-psyker abilities, ( or make Sisters troops in their own detachment) or give them a great overwatch ability. Overwatch on 2+ with a sort of Heroic Intervention overwatch. The ability to overwatch when not being the unit selected in the charge.
I don't get your point. Not every unit in the game has a fight last ability.
2+ overwatch is ridiculous.
Edit: the "heroic intervention overwatch" is a cool concept though.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Excuse me, I apologize, if "Everyone = Factions" has a fight last, obviously not every model in the game has one.
Yes, +2 Overwatch is silly, but the Custodes need something to give them top spot on defensive ranking.
I honestly can't understand why Overwatch was always limited to the selected units, like all the other units just stand around, not seeing anything.
Sry I misunderstood your point. My point is just that not having fight last is a big weakness of the custodes in 9th that needs addressing, hence why I just made a wild guess that maybe GW will tack on fight last on wardens in some form to kill two birds with one stone: giving custodes fight last and making wardens useful...maybe, hopefully.
If Custodes don't get a very strong defense against MW, the army is bottom tier.
I mean just look... MW are popping up EVERYWHERE. GK/1kSons will get them very soon. Orks get 2,5avg on charging and have bomb squigs.
You get to lose 1/3 of your squad because you got charged. Without any defense. Without any save.54 pts down the drain and thats before the fight happens.
If the proliferation of MWs continues, Custodes are in deep, deep trouble if no defences against that type of damage shows up.
Thairne wrote: If Custodes don't get a very strong defense against MW, the army is bottom tier.
I mean just look... MW are popping up EVERYWHERE. GK/1kSons will get them very soon. Orks get 2,5avg on charging and have bomb squigs.
You get to lose 1/3 of your squad because you got charged. Without any defense. Without any save.54 pts down the drain and thats before the fight happens.
If the proliferation of MWs continues, Custodes are in deep, deep trouble if no defences against that type of damage shows up.
So, aegis of the emperor bumped up to a 5+ feelnopain against all mortal wounds, not only in the psychic phase?
Thairne wrote: If Custodes don't get a very strong defense against MW, the army is bottom tier.
I mean just look... MW are popping up EVERYWHERE. GK/1kSons will get them very soon. Orks get 2,5avg on charging and have bomb squigs.
You get to lose 1/3 of your squad because you got charged. Without any defense. Without any save.54 pts down the drain and thats before the fight happens.
If the proliferation of MWs continues, Custodes are in deep, deep trouble if no defences against that type of damage shows up.
So, aegis of the emperor bumped up to a 5+ feelnopain against all mortal wounds, not only in the psychic phase?
It's a start. If we're supposed to be mega tough but weak to psykers, specifically, they could probably leave Aegis as a 6+++ for the psychic phase and add a special rule that we can use our invuln against MW outside the psychic phase.
Thairne wrote: If Custodes don't get a very strong defense against MW, the army is bottom tier.
I mean just look... MW are popping up EVERYWHERE. GK/1kSons will get them very soon. Orks get 2,5avg on charging and have bomb squigs.
You get to lose 1/3 of your squad because you got charged. Without any defense. Without any save.54 pts down the drain and thats before the fight happens.
If the proliferation of MWs continues, Custodes are in deep, deep trouble if no defences against that type of damage shows up.
So, aegis of the emperor bumped up to a 5+ feelnopain against all mortal wounds, not only in the psychic phase?
It's a start. If we're supposed to be mega tough but weak to psykers, specifically, they could probably leave Aegis as a 6+++ for the psychic phase and add a special rule that we can use our invuln against MW outside the psychic phase.
see, i;m not opposed to expanding our 5+++ FNP saves to all MWs, but i do feel that the custodes, as a whole, should be comparatively vulnerable to MWs, and it should be a effecient method of hurting us, compared to just swamping us in conventional attacks. every army should have a weakness like that, something thats just good against them. horde armies should be cleared by massed small arms, Ours should be either our lack of numbers leading to risk of swamping, OR being hit by incredibley powerful weapons (ie MW).
and, lets face it, GK and Tsons are still pretty poorly proforming armies that, even if they get a significant boost, would be just "Middling" armies. id be happy with them getting that boost. I dont think they will take them down the "straight MW spam" route, anyway, Apart form anything else, they slapped the pair of them with a rules change intended purely to reduce MW spam at the start of 9th, it would be just silly to then un-patch the patch to boost them agian)
I would trade relative immunity from S3 and below weapons if we kept our weakness to MWs. The ability to spam weak attacks is rapidly becomming uncontrollable in 9th, and when we are facing off against 9th edition's versions of Cultist or BL bombs, I don't want to start eating 40-60 S3 attacks for less than the cost of my unit of Shield Guard.
I say just give us +1 wounds across the board, Fixed damage weapons, and make a unit that gives a -1 damage aura, to zero. That way you have to hit us with something D6 or better if you want to actually kill us, and those aren't easy to spam.
We shouldn't be as powerful as the fluff makes us, but we shouldn't be dropping to las or autogun fire either.
leerm02 wrote: Does anyone have any news/rumors/theories as to when we might get an updated codex? None of my usual sources have us anywhere in the pipeline :-(
When? No, not a clue. We're at least 6-8 months out, given the number of known to be coming releases (grey knights, tsons, black templars, orks. Possibly chaos deamons as well). Beyond that I have no idea
leerm02 wrote: Does anyone have any news/rumors/theories as to when we might get an updated codex? None of my usual sources have us anywhere in the pipeline :-(
When? No, not a clue. We're at least 6-8 months out, given the number of known to be coming releases (grey knights, tsons, black templars, orks. Possibly chaos deamons as well). Beyond that I have no idea
If they get back up to their original goal of releasing 2 Codices per month (what they meant to be doing this whole time), we could potentially be sooner, but otherwise yeah this is what I've been hearing on the rumor mill too.
leerm02 wrote: Does anyone have any news/rumors/theories as to when we might get an updated codex? None of my usual sources have us anywhere in the pipeline :-(
Rumors?
Well I know a guy who has a line to GW who said he's pretty sure Custodes are gonna get rebranded into Talons, and a few sisters kits added. But that this means they will be pretty late in the release cycle.
I took the Emissaries Imperatus list which was specced into drukari/admech and didnt end up playing a single one of such armies .............
I also got lucky enough to never bump into any Death Guard players (which made up like 6% of the field).
Round 1 was goff boy spam with Ghaz. Mission was one of the Domination missions (Hold 2, Hold 3, Hold more).
Bad matchup on that. At the end of the game he had 20 grots, and 2 weirdboyz left on the table but he had held me to 25 on primary and 8 on ROD. Looking back I should have taken No Prisoners instead of ROD. Would have picked me up 4 or 5 more points.
I had a bit of bad luck turn 1 as well, loosing my biker captain to a squad of boyz. To be fair, he did spend 6 CP to double attack in both his turn and mine.
Round 2 was up against SoB. This was a very close game and came down to the wire. Once again I rolled bad on my bike captain and lost him turn 1. At the end of the game i didnt have enough guys left to score my priority objective and i lost by 3 points. Game would have been a draw (which incidentally also knocked me down to second overall custodes player). 88-85 good game.
Round 3 was up against Tau. He played pure T'au cept and had a very old school (yet powerful) 9 broadside, 1 riptide, ton of drones style list with some pathfinder squads and some breachers in a devilfish. He reserved the devilfish and turtled up, hoping he could wipe out my tanks before moving upfield. Unfortunately I didnt give him the chance, blazing upfield and nuking all his infantry early. With no obsec units on objectives I completely shut out his primary, only giving up 15 points the whole game. He did get me down to almost no units left at the end, but his points totals were almost completely on his secondaries so I got the win.
DAY 2
Round 4 had me up against a horrible match with Nightbringer, Void-dragon, and a Vault, plus a ton of Obsec scarabs with a pregame move. To make things worse it was the Scouring mission. There was basically no way I could have won, barring my opponent rolling real badly. I did however get close. I just failed a few too many wound rolls with my tanks against the C'tans, letting the nightbringer live until the last turn of the game when it no longer mattered and having the Void dragon still at full health. After eating 22 C'tan powers I was basically tabled and had very little primary. Bad game for me.....
Round 5 is where things starting getting alot better though. Matched up against White Scars. He did bring 20 Van Vets, bladeguard K'ssarro, 2 volkite contemptors, 1 smash chaplain, and a second bufflain to give one of the contemptors +1 to wound. He didnt have much obsec though, with only 2 Infiltrator squads so I knew what I had to do.
By turn 3 he had no more obsec or bladeguard and I had reduced all the VanVet squads to 3 or less models cept for one (he combat squaded into 4-5mans). The contemptors did work to me, but I took his backfield with my venetari and bike captain and held my side of the table for the win.
Round 6 was up against IG. My experience with IG is if they spam tank commanders im in for a rough time. Kris did take 2 of those and the full payload manticore, but the rest of his list was fairly different. He had 2 valkries full of 5 man scion squads, a primaris psycher and a weirdvane psycher, 2 units of infantry with chimeras, a squadron of 2 plasma russ's, and the little Self Destruct tank from FW. Never seen one of those in action yet so it was fun. I knew that the scions were gonna give him max secondaries with ROD and BEL unless I could take out the Valks, but unfortunately he got first turn so that was out of the question. I had hid well so he was only able to do 3 wounds to one of my tanks with his manticore. Good start got even better when my bike captain earned his title of captain Unkillable. The man tanked 80% of his armies shooting on turn 2 and only took 1 damage. My turn 2 had me blow him off all his objectives. I basically just stuck to that plan, never letting him get to the midfield objectives, protecting mine, and shooting/charging onto his keeping him at 20 on primary by the end of the game. I do have to admit, this win was mostly due to his bad luck with shooting at my captain. He spent far too much firepower into him when he could have removed my other infantry much easier, which would have also allowed him to score more primary points.
Overall on the tourny, I felt fine about my list. I know its an auto loss against death guard, but I was hoping to not run into any due to the prevelance of admech and drukari. Turns out I didnt play any but just for blind luck. I also had almost no chance to win the matchup against the necrons or orks. However necrons dont all spam Ctans, and dont make up a large amount of the playerbase, and Orks are fixing to be an entire different army so I cant comment much on them. So really It just game down to the game with SoB. I did underestimate how much damage dominions could do with their blessed bolts (did 18 mortals to my shield guard over 3 turns), and had bad luck with my captain. I think if the captain had lived even one more turn I could have won the game, but hard to say for sure. It was a fun game though so I wont complain.
I had 4 high scoring games though so my average score was pretty good which is gonna net me alot of points for the faction leaderboard. Goal Achieved and another great event.
I personally liked the way the terrain was handled with the players setting it alternatingly. Not everyone did, but I think it adds another aspect of player skill to the game which was nice and freshened things up.
Loss of 'core' for Balastarii, and Dragoons
Lucius dogma only applies if the unit isn't in cover,
Acquision at any cost is 1/game requiring the unit to be wholly within 6 of an objective.
An enriched rounds going to 2cp if the unit is 11+ models, and only auto wounding on 5s.
Galvanic Volleys goes to heavy 3, instead of RF2.
Seems like a lot of those changes will help a little when it comes to the admech matchup. Telemons will last longer vs all the massed lascannons, and Shield Guard might have a chance to survive infantry.
Still gonna have to hide with cover to have any luck i suppose.
The galvanic volley fire actually is a sidegrade in disguise.
You could reach out to 24" with 80 shots, but now you can get 60 at 40" and rangers usuall dont want to get close enough. And yes, now moving and shooting is a thing of the past too with those.
So is anyone worried about the new Acro Flaggelants and their 90 S5 attacks for 155points? I mean, melee is getting bonkers at this point. When our codex rolls around we might be slightly broken.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So is anyone worried about the new Acro Flaggelants and their 90 S5 attacks for 155points? I mean, melee is getting bonkers at this point. When our codex rolls around we might be slightly broken.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So is anyone worried about the new Acro Flaggelants and their 90 S5 attacks for 155points? I mean, melee is getting bonkers at this point. When our codex rolls around we might be slightly broken.
Where did you get any of these numbers?
They get 2 attacks base, a war hymn gives them +1 attack and their weapons give them two attacks per attack which can be boosted to 3 with a stratagem.
So you're getting 3x3 S5 attacks per model in a 10 man unit. They are a blender.
Regarding the arco flaggelants with a bazillion attacks: against such a unit I think it's really important to have the emperors auspice strat ready.
If you can turn off their full re-rolls to hit, you severely dampen their damage output. If they were to charge our terminators for example and you also throw in auramite and adamantium, I think they statistically only kill about one terminator.
Edit: I think they would also bounce off against a Galatus dreadnought pretty hard, given you have the emperors auspice strat ready. That - 1 to hit from the Galatus shield comes in handy here.
So aiming to throw those units against the flaggelants, might be a decent way to deal with them in melee. Most efficient way is still probably shooting them off the board with venatari or bikes.
Tiberias wrote: Regarding the arco flaggelants with a bazillion attacks: against such a unit I think it's really important to have the emperors auspice strat ready.
If you can turn off their full re-rolls to hit, you severely dampen their damage output. If they were to charge our terminators for example and you also throw in auramite and adamantium, I think they statistically only kill about one terminator.
Just gotta decide if 3CP is worth saving 2 terminators.
Edit: I think they would also bounce off against a Galatus dreadnought pretty hard, given you have the emperors auspice strat ready.
Even without the strat, they'd only do 4 wounds to it, with the strat it'd be about 3 wounds.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tiberias wrote: So aiming to throw those units against the flaggelants, might be a decent way to deal with them in melee. Most efficient way is still probably shooting them off the board with venatari or bikes.
Blow open their transport with the telemon and then mince them with SAF, theoretically easy.
Thairne wrote: The galvanic volley fire actually is a sidegrade in disguise.
You could reach out to 24" with 80 shots, but now you can get 60 at 40" and rangers usuall dont want to get close enough. And yes, now moving and shooting is a thing of the past too with those.
I agree, sidegrade is a fair statement. But i'd hope that most tables have enough terrain to not let them sit and fire from 40 away without some kind of terrain getting in the way.
Niiai wrote: The telemon dreadnought. What is the usual load out on it? I see a lot of custodies take it. It is sturdy. But I do not see what it's guns should be.
i think the general consensus is double storm cannon (the super assault cannon one) over the autocannon one, as if gives us some of our fairly limited ranged AT options. storm cannon and fist (ie "classic SM dread" style) is quite popular as well for versatility.
Don't they also get a 5 pt upgrade for one of the models to be S6 with 6 attacks? Also, each of their flail attacks count as 2 hits (actually unsure if that rule survived from 8th?) but I do know if that is what a 155 points and a few CP buys an all out melee unit, than I want some of that for our boys.
Niiai wrote: The telemon dreadnought. What is the usual load out on it? I see a lot of custodies take it. It is sturdy. But I do not see what it's guns should be.
I play my Telemons with fists and accelerators. The storm cannon is not really needed in the sisters and marine melta meta, most people don't bring many tanks. if you know you're gonna play against a lot of vehilces it might be worth it though.
The Storm cannon is useful in picking off heavy targets at range, where as the Accelerator only beats the storm in picking off heavy infantry at range. Which if you are playing ranged telemon style, wouldn't it just be better with two guns and no fists? Fists are only good if you intend on going up against T8 units or super heavy units like monsters, DPs, or morty. Just go dual Accelerators for maximum dakka against the current meta.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: The Storm cannon is useful in picking off heavy targets at range, where as the Accelerator only beats the storm in picking off heavy infantry at range. Which if you are playing ranged telemon style, wouldn't it just be better with two guns and no fists? Fists are only good if you intend on going up against T8 units or super heavy units like monsters, DPs, or morty. Just go dual Accelerators for maximum dakka against the current meta.
It depends on how you want to utilize the telemon. If you want it as a back field firing platform then yes, double shooting weapon is the way to go.
If you want an anchor for you list that walks down the midfield along with your shield guard, then fist/gun is the way to go imo.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: The Storm cannon is useful in picking off heavy targets at range, where as the Accelerator only beats the storm in picking off heavy infantry at range. Which if you are playing ranged telemon style, wouldn't it just be better with two guns and no fists? Fists are only good if you intend on going up against T8 units or super heavy units like monsters, DPs, or morty. Just go dual Accelerators for maximum dakka against the current meta.
It depends on how you want to utilize the telemon. If you want it as a back field firing platform then yes, double shooting weapon is the way to go.
If you want an anchor for you list that walks down the midfield along with your shield guard, then fist/gun is the way to go imo.
You can also get the problem that, because we're such a low model count army, it's hard to screen your telemon making him liable to get locked in cc.
If your Telemon isn't screened properly, or you don't have the requisite screening units, then yes, you have that concern. But if you bring a telemon onto the field, pretty much every faction you may face is going to try and focus it down. I think for the majority of factions though, killing it in melee is a bad trade. Even without the fists it's still hitting on 2s with a S8 attack 5 times.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: If your Telemon isn't screened properly, or you don't have the requisite screening units, then yes, you have that concern. But if you bring a telemon onto the field, pretty much every faction you may face is going to try and focus it down. I think for the majority of factions though, killing it in melee is a bad trade. Even without the fists it's still hitting on 2s with a S8 attack 5 times.
At AP0 D1.
If a squad of five Intercessors charge it, it would take nine rounds of combat to kill them all, solely from the Telemon's melee, at least.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: If your Telemon isn't screened properly, or you don't have the requisite screening units, then yes, you have that concern. But if you bring a telemon onto the field, pretty much every faction you may face is going to try and focus it down. I think for the majority of factions though, killing it in melee is a bad trade. Even without the fists it's still hitting on 2s with a S8 attack 5 times.
At AP0 D1.
If a squad of five Intercessors charge it, it would take nine rounds of combat to kill them all, solely from the Telemon's melee, at least.
While the point stands, I think just shooting into combat each battle round speeds it up considerably for the Telemon.
That was my point. Also, If a squad of intercessors is tying up your 400pt unit, you have failed to properly screen that unit. I know we don't have many units to spare, but if you have left your dakka bot alone in the middle of the board within charge range of a squad of cheap infantry, that's on you.
While I get your point and I agree, a telemon is not 400points. It's 310 at its most expensive configuration.
I think that is also why people like the fist/gun configuration especially for the midfield, because it makes the telemon a threat everywhere. And let's be honest, the Telemon has turned into our best distraction carnifex...I'm always really happy when my opponent uses most of his firepower to try to bring down my shadowkeepers telemon (which often doesn't even work), leaving my other assets relatively safe. He mainly needs to be tough and scary imo.
I'm attending the GW open in New Orleans come October and plan on shaking things up.
Due to the way terrain is going to be, I'm expecting basically no shooting available to whoever goes first. This means fast armies and melee armies should have a huge advantage. The lack of difficult terrain on the tables also incentives this.
I'm going to run Dread Host.
I know, mad.
I won't be spamming terminators though, only bringing one brick of aquilon. This is where I'd like to hear you guys opinion.
5 aquillons/daggers, plus a galatus is my optional stuff. What would you swap out and why. Note the army must be full custodes.
Eihnlazer wrote: I'm attending the GW open in New Orleans come October and plan on shaking things up.
Due to the way terrain is going to be, I'm expecting basically no shooting available to whoever goes first. This means fast armies and melee armies should have a huge advantage. The lack of difficult terrain on the tables also incentives this.
I'm going to run Dread Host.
I know, mad.
I won't be spamming terminators though, only bringing one brick of aquilon. This is where I'd like to hear you guys opinion.
5 aquillons/daggers, plus a galatus is my optional stuff. What would you swap out and why. Note the army must be full custodes.
I wouldn't swap. For Dread Host that's a great setup. The only thing to consider is that you might get more performance out of Allarus versus Death Guard but only if they don't run Deathshroud since you could character snipe on landing and the 1D3 damage will technically average more than the flat 2 due to their -1 damage rule. Other than that, those are exactly the two units you want to take.
Maybe consider a Culexus for the fight last aura to protect you from people charging the Terminators/Dread. You can also use it if the Culexus charges to shut off peoples' ability to use Counter-Offensive.
Why take a Culexus for their cost, and CP when you can just pop a triple squad of bolter sisters for basically twice the cost, way more usefulness, and none of the CP cost?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Why take a Culexus for their cost, and CP when you can just pop a triple squad of bolter sisters for basically twice the cost, way more usefulness, and none of the CP cost?
Because the Culexus has a fight last aura. That's the reason you take him, not any psychic shut down power.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Why take a Culexus for their cost, and CP when you can just pop a triple squad of bolter sisters for basically twice the cost, way more usefulness, and none of the CP cost?
Because the Culexus has a fight last aura. That's the reason you take him, not any psychic shut down power.
So I guess if you are willing to blow 2 CP for the chance to land 4 S4 AP0 D1 attacks first, sure. I'd rather take the sister's pysker targeting shooting attacks. To each their own.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Why take a Culexus for their cost, and CP when you can just pop a triple squad of bolter sisters for basically twice the cost, way more usefulness, and none of the CP cost?
Because the Culexus has a fight last aura. That's the reason you take him, not any psychic shut down power.
So I guess if you are willing to blow 2 CP for the chance to land 4 S4 AP0 D1 attacks first, sure. I'd rather take the sister's pysker targeting shooting attacks. To each their own.
?
X's are Custodes infantry. Y is the Culexus.
XYX
XXX
There. You fight last all enemies around the Culexus and activate your Custodes infantry first to smash them. When you have multiple squads you need the fight last to force them to lowest priority so you aren't always trading alternations with 'always fights first' or enemies using the counter-offensive stratagem (and you get to swing with everything first in prolonged engagements).
Just as a trivia, the Culexus's attacks are also AP -infinite- because they do not allow armor saves in melee.
I agree the Culexus is a pretty good addon for Dread host. I just cant find 100pts for him. Assasins are all grossly overpointed atm compared to 9th codex characters.
I'll get my stuff painted up and get some test games in and let you know if I stick with it.
So im just starting custodes and cant be bothered to read 200pages of stuff (over multipul editions and faqs)
so a question why are people giving storm shields to gaurd as the invun dosent get improved and you loss range and damage in shooting plus strength and damage in melee all you gain is a 1+armour save which is ok but which seems like a weak swap to me, so any guidence.
Skullhammer wrote: So im just starting custodes and cant be bothered to read 200pages of stuff (over multipul editions and faqs)
so a question why are people giving storm shields to gaurd as the invun dosent get improved and you loss range and damage in shooting plus strength and damage in melee all you gain is a 1+armour save which is ok but which seems like a weak swap to me, so any guidence.
Storm Shields are now +1 to Armor save rolls, and 4+ Invuln. So the invuln is improved to a 3+. Custodes are one of the few that can do that.
Anyone taken a look at the new GK/1kSons stuff? Anyone wanna take a crack at formulating a method of countering them in the meanwhile before our codex? I'm kinda leaning more towards heavy on the max shield guardian squads and bikes.
Their new rules that make their buffs only target the casting unit is huge in my way of thinking, meaning we don't need to fear their buff bot characters anymore. But their strike squads with swords and hammerhand is now gonna be hard to counter. We need flat 2 damage weapons, STAT.
Skullhammer wrote: So im just starting custodes and cant be bothered to read 200pages of stuff (over multipul editions and faqs)
so a question why are people giving storm shields to gaurd as the invun dosent get improved and you loss range and damage in shooting plus strength and damage in melee all you gain is a 1+armour save which is ok but which seems like a weak swap to me, so any guidence
.
Storm Shields are now +1 to Armor save rolls, and 4+ Invuln. So the invuln is improved to a 3+. Custodes are one of the few that can do that.
Invuns arnt armour saves so unless it specifies invuns are improved thats a strech and a half to my mind. Im sure theres been a lot of debate about this but i wont play it that way, so unless your streching shields really dont seem worth it.
Shields give you a 4+ invuln, then the custodes faction trait pushes it to a 3++. The shield also gives you +1 to armor saves. So guardians with shields are 1+/3++
Does anyone feel like souping in GK might be a major success for us? Shores up two of our big weaknesses if we just drop a few GKHQs or a couple Strike Squads into our mix. Solves the Psyker problem, and gives us some cheaper wounds that can dish our some really good shooting.
i'll try to follow it. Thankfuly I have 2 Telemons and 3 Caladius. I learned the hard way that you should really avoid the succubi.
