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Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/22 01:57:56


Post by: Cephalobeard


Alright, folks. With the Codex rapidly approaching release next week and GW having previewed the units within, it's time to begin the Tactica for our boys in gold.

Based on the initial information, I'm of the opinion of the following:

Custodes can be used as either <Imperium> Support via their multiple Vexilla, by providing things like Guardsmen a 5++ saveand morale immunity or as the larger percentage of more aggressive lists.

Due to the expensive nature of the army, I do believe a secondary battalion from a less expensive <Imperium> force is a valuable asset to provide additional CP to an army with a wide breadth of Stratagems to take advantage of.

Bikes outclass Terminators, to an almost undeniable level. With a difference of less then 20 points between a squad of 3, I only like Terminators for either Vexilla or for small, min man squads for filling Detachments.

Star of the army truly is the Stratagems.

I look forward to hearing more opinions, and over time I will reformat the OP to include additional information we compile here.

EDIT I will be adding more, consolidated information as it is released over time. I appreciate your patience.

[Thumb - 40kCustodes-Jan15-ShieldCaptain2xn.jpg]
[Thumb - 40kCustodes-Jan17-Dive4ha.jpg]
[Thumb - 40kCustodes-Jan18-Lions8eh.jpg]
[Thumb - 40kCustodes-Jan17-SalvoLauncher2uf.jpg]
[Thumb - 40kCustodes-Jan17-Lance3ys.jpg]
[Thumb - 40kCustodes-Jan16-Aegis1ek.jpg]
[Thumb - 40kCustodes-Jan16-Chosen2qh.jpg]
[Thumb - 40kCustodes-Jan16-Guardians3gw.jpg]


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/22 02:13:34


Post by: SilverAlien


The sniper stratagem the terminators alone can use sounds like one potential reason to run a unit of them, though admittedly that may not be very useful at this point.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/22 02:16:25


Post by: Cephalobeard


SilverAlien wrote:
The sniper stratagem the terminators alone can use sounds like one potential reason to run a unit of them, though admittedly that may not be very useful at this point.


It could!

They feel... Very niche. I just don't know if that niche is viable enough.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/22 03:09:13


Post by: Fenris-77


 Cephalobeard wrote:
SilverAlien wrote:
The sniper stratagem the terminators alone can use sounds like one potential reason to run a unit of them, though admittedly that may not be very useful at this point.


It could!

They feel... Very niche. I just don't know if that niche is viable enough.
IDK about Termies. In a vacuum I'd consider them in a Custodes-heavy list, but they do suffer in comparison to the bikes. i think the teleport stratagem could make them tactically flexible enough to find a home in a lot of specific builds though - there's more than one way to use it, and the deployment part is reliable. I can see AM armies finding great uses for it.

Those Jetbikes are going to be in a lot of armies too IMO. Hurricane Bolters for hordes and they hit hard in HtH AND they look super-cool? Sign me up - I can find a place for that in most Imperial armies.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/22 03:19:00


Post by: Cephalobeard


My list is 3x3 Bikes, 5 Captains with Daggers and then an AM Battalion for the Aquila and CP WT.

I fully intend to counter charge as much as possible.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/22 03:40:34


Post by: Oberron


Anyone else think g there isn't much of a reason to use wardens? 1 more attack than troops but what I remember nearly half as much more.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/22 04:53:36


Post by: COLD CASH


2 versions of this supreme command detach floating around think either of these is what i will start with because its strong as DERP.

3x bike caps(2x hurricane if points allow 1x missile) and 1x vex.

or

1-2x bike caps(hurricane) and 1-2x foot caps(max 3 together) and 1x vex


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/22 05:37:54


Post by: Audustum


Oberron wrote:
Anyone else think g there isn't much of a reason to use wardens? 1 more attack than troops but what I remember nearly half as much more.


They also get a 6+ FnP and the option to take axes (S8). That said, the numbers I saw say they're only about 10-12 PPM more.

I agree with everyone that bikes are waaaaaay better than Terminators.

My initial thought to stay elite and get over the CP issue is to run:

Battalion
HQ: Captain on Foot
HQ: Captain on Bike
Troop: 'Regular' Custodes minimum squad
Troop: 'Regular' Custodes minimum squad
Troop: 'Regular' Custodes minimum squad
Fast Attack: Squad of Bikes with Hurricanes

Super-Heavy Auxiliary
LoW: Guilliman

This should be about 1,400-1,500 points so you get 500-600 flex for including vexilias and other units.

Guilliman as the Warlord means it has 9 CP and regenerates any spent points on a 5+ .


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/22 10:47:56


Post by: _Valten_


Based on what we already know, I've worked out the following list:

Battalion
Captain on Bike
Captain on Foot (maybe Terminator Armour)
3x3 Custodes
4 Terminators with Axes
5 Bikes (2 bolters, 3 salvo launchers)
Vexillla
Vexilla in Terminator Armour

Vanguard
Greyfax
2x1 Acolyte
Culexus

This really depends on how much the banners are - I'm going for something that looks great, which is why the Terminators are in there. Plus I'd like to see someones face when T1 they have 6 Terminators and 6 Bikes within 9 or closer, then T2 Unleash the Lions and tie up loads of units in combat.

Greyfax and Culexus are there for Psychic support / Deny, and the acolytes are there because they're 8 points each and fill the elite slots to get me +1 CP. I can always leave them in reserve and walk them on later in the game if needs must.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/22 11:55:56


Post by: changemod


Just out of morbid curiosity, do we have an estimate on the cheapest possible Custodes brigade yet?


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/22 12:10:29


Post by: COLD CASH


changemod wrote:
Just out of morbid curiosity, do we have an estimate on the cheapest possible Custodes brigade yet?



true masochist right here


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/22 12:10:47


Post by: ritualnet


changemod wrote:
Just out of morbid curiosity, do we have an estimate on the cheapest possible Custodes brigade yet?


I'm looking at joining a 500pt escalation league, so I'm curious how many points that Custode Guards box works out (1 HQ, 1 Elite, 3x troop for a patrol detachment), and what else I'd need to make it 500 pts.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/22 12:44:06


Post by: Audustum


I think cheapest Captain is 118 and cheapest troop is 54 PPM? So cheapest battalion is 722?


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/22 12:45:29


Post by: Cephalobeard


Hey, Hey.

My FLGS with likely be doing an Escalation league, as well.

Personally I would advise starting that endeavor with either a Patrol or a Supreme command.

Mine will just be a supreme command of 3x Captains on Bikes w/ Daggers once I catch the second round of it.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/22 12:56:26


Post by: changemod


Realistically attempting to start a 500 point detachment right now is dubious, though I'd expect it to become more realistic once Sagittarum are a thing.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/22 13:51:06


Post by: Cephalobeard


I'm very excited to see what FW does with 40k Custodes.

I rather desperately want to deep strike two Telemon.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/22 14:31:43


Post by: Kdash


So I keep thinking Vanguard detachment built into a wider Imperium army.

Would be a Captain in Terminator armour (with the relic plate), Captain on a bike, 1 Vexilla in Terminator armour, 1 standard Vexilla, 1 unit of Terminators with axes and 1 unit of bikes with bolter.

From there, I’d prob go for another Vanguard containing Celestine and 3 assassins and a battalion of likely Guard – though, will be interesting to see what Marines you can get alongside it all.

Certainly going to be some very very interesting combinations appearing in the near future!


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/22 19:41:13


Post by: Oberron


Does anyone know of any changes to the dread or land raider? As the only two vehicles for custodes I wonder if they kinda forgot about them i know there is a stratagem with two landraider but I don't see that as ever being used aside from like 2500+ point games.

Also what set up for the dread do you guys like? the melta or the kharns pattern assault cannon?


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/22 19:47:02


Post by: changemod


Oberron wrote:
Does anyone know of any changes to the dread or land raider? As the only two vehicles for custodes I wonder if they kinda forgot about them i know there is a stratagem with two landraider but I don't see that as ever being used aside from like 2500+ point games.

Also what set up for the dread do you guys like? the melta or the kharns pattern assault cannon?


I'm a big proponent of ignoring it and waiting for the real Custodes dreads to be ported. That said, in a marine list Kheres is the clear winner.

Custodes severely lack dedicated anti-big weaponry though, so there's merit in charging directly at vehicles and monsters to punch them apart, using a Melta to supplement.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/22 20:03:01


Post by: Audustum


changemod wrote:
Oberron wrote:
Does anyone know of any changes to the dread or land raider? As the only two vehicles for custodes I wonder if they kinda forgot about them i know there is a stratagem with two landraider but I don't see that as ever being used aside from like 2500+ point games.

Also what set up for the dread do you guys like? the melta or the kharns pattern assault cannon?


I'm a big proponent of ignoring it and waiting for the real Custodes dreads to be ported. That said, in a marine list Kheres is the clear winner.

Custodes severely lack dedicated anti-big weaponry though, so there's merit in charging directly at vehicles and monsters to punch them apart, using a Melta to supplement.


I ran a bunch of guns through a calculator awhile ago ( http://mathhammer.thefieldsofblood.com/ )

And if I remember right the Melta is almost never worth it over the Kheres.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/22 22:14:56


Post by: Therion


So, to those who have access to detailed information and points costs, what's the price tag for the Captain on Jetbike with Hurricane Bolter and some melee weapon? Additionally, can you get 3++ on them?

Would a Supreme Command with 3 of those guys be a viable addition to Astra Militarum armies? It all comes down to the points cost?


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/22 22:22:09


Post by: Audustum


 Therion wrote:
So, to those who have access to detailed information and points costs, what's the price tag for the Captain on Jetbike with Hurricane Bolter and some melee weapon? Additionally, can you get 3++ on them?

Would a Supreme Command with 3 of those guys be a viable addition to Astra Militarum armies? It all comes down to the points cost?


I saw 160 for a Captain Jet Bike but I don't know if that includes melee.

You can get two 3++'s. Both from relics (so you'll have to fork a CP and might have to make one of them your Warlord too).


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/22 23:02:07


Post by: Gryphonne


I'm thinking the following @ 1500 pts:

Outrider Detachment
Captain on Bike (3++ Bike, FnP)
Captain on Bike

1x Bike Squad (1 Salvo Launcher)
1x Bike Squad (1 Salvo Launcher)
1x Bike Squad (All hurricane)

Vanguard Detachment
Greyfax
2x1 Acolyte
Eversor Assassin
Culexus Assassin
Callidus Assassin

The mix of assassins is to guarantee some instant deep strike charges, culexus against psykers obviously. Captain on 3++ and maybe a squad of Bikers go deepstrike. Probably not an all comer list, but should be a lot of fun


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/22 23:10:02


Post by: Cephalobeard


160 For a captain on bike, but you want to spend the extra 4pts for the Dagger. Gives you a S:U attack at -2 AP 1d, and on the captains who already do loads of damage it's a no brainier.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 00:30:31


Post by: Audustum


 Cephalobeard wrote:
160 For a captain on bike, but you want to spend the extra 4pts for the Dagger. Gives you a S:U attack at -2 AP 1d, and on the captains who already do loads of damage it's a no brainier.


Alternatively, couldn't you argue that since the Captains ALREADY do loads of damage they don't need it? If the enemy has 5 life it doesn't matter if I do 7 or 10 damage: he's toast.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 01:31:43


Post by: Cephalobeard


You could, sure. It's 4 points, though. I wouldn't argue against that bonus for that little.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 02:13:04


Post by: changemod


I would. Points are already at a premium without unnecessarily spending 4 points on a single power sword (with slightly worse AP) attack.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 02:42:36


Post by: Cephalobeard


If your list comes down to the inability to spare 4-12pts on daggers for your Captains, by all means decide against them.

None of my lists have been so tight I could not afford 12-20pts for 3-5 S5 ap-2 1d attacks at WS2+ rerolling 1s to hit and wounds on the charge.



Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 03:41:34


Post by: changemod


You're missing the point there a fair bit. You're upselling it as an amazing thing, when in actuality it's not particularly worthwhile in a vacuum and only really comes into play as something to do with the spare points caused by nothing being cheap in a Custodes list, so poor granularity.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 03:46:14


Post by: JNAProductions


What do they have stock? No melee weapon at all?


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 04:20:16


Post by: Cephalobeard


*SNIP*

Argument unrelated to overall discussion. Not tremendously worth arguing the wargear.

Deleted to keep thread topic related, not personal.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 04:24:05


Post by: Cephalobeard


 JNAProductions wrote:
What do they have stock? No melee weapon at all?


A captain on a Bike comes with an Interceptor Lance, which is S+1 ap-3 and d3 damage. As a Jetbike unit they reroll wounds on a charge and have the following profile for basic stats, while receiving extra toughness from the Bike, etc.

[Thumb - 40kCustodes-Jan15-ShieldCaptain2xn.jpg]


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 04:48:51


Post by: JNAProductions


It doesn't seem needed. It's certainly not a bad investment for 4 points (but does it work like a chainsword where you get the extra attack?) but, since the Captain already has a weapon, I'd consider a luxury. A luxury you can probably afford, since Custodes, but, you know.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 04:51:31


Post by: Cephalobeard


Entirely agreed. Also, yeah, it's just a 4pt ap-2 chainsword.

Happy to move on to the next thing lol



Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 04:52:33


Post by: JNAProductions


So, what do we know for sure right now? I'm thinking about starting a bike-heavy Custodes army, and I'd like whatever solid info we have.

Might be good to slap it in the OP too.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 04:53:07


Post by: changemod


 Cephalobeard wrote:
changemod wrote:
You're missing the point there a fair bit. You're upselling it as an amazing thing, when in actuality it's not particularly worthwhile in a vacuum and only really comes into play as something to do with the spare points caused by nothing being cheap in a Custodes list, so poor granularity.


Yeesh, what a harsh turn of discussion.

I'm not "missing the point" by disagreeing about the usefulness of a 4pt upgrade available to an army that, depending on construction, will end up having points to spare due to, as you mentioned, the expensive nature of the army.

Edit:

I'll note, yes. It IS an amazing thing when you have the spare points. It's one of your only wargear options, costs 4pts, helps your heroic intervention attacks, and you'll almost always have 4pts left over. It's just a, functionally in almost all mono-custodes lists and likely lists using them as allies, free thing to throw on. Don't be a Weiner.


I'm not sure why you're getting so up in arms about this: It costs the same as a power sword, has worse AP, and only counts for one attack whereas a power sword bought for a standard character would contribute to every attack they made.

It would be amazing -on a sagitarrum guard- who has no other Melee weapon but a standard Custodes profile well suited to melee. Otherwise, it's paying full cost for something that will only see partial use. You can't really afford to give it out to most Custodes because it'll add up fast when taken in multiples.

Meanwhile one extra almost-power sword attack on an already high end combat character serves no real purpose beyond a little extra security blanket against the possibility of the dice turning on you. It's never something exciting, just an afterthought.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 04:55:00


Post by: JNAProductions


changemod wrote:
 Cephalobeard wrote:
changemod wrote:
You're missing the point there a fair bit. You're upselling it as an amazing thing, when in actuality it's not particularly worthwhile in a vacuum and only really comes into play as something to do with the spare points caused by nothing being cheap in a Custodes list, so poor granularity.


Yeesh, what a harsh turn of discussion.

I'm not "missing the point" by disagreeing about the usefulness of a 4pt upgrade available to an army that, depending on construction, will end up having points to spare due to, as you mentioned, the expensive nature of the army.

Edit:

I'll note, yes. It IS an amazing thing when you have the spare points. It's one of your only wargear options, costs 4pts, helps your heroic intervention attacks, and you'll almost always have 4pts left over. It's just a, functionally in almost all mono-custodes lists and likely lists using them as allies, free thing to throw on. Don't be a Weiner.


I'm not sure why you're getting so up in arms about this: It costs the same as a power sword, has worse AP, and only counts for one attack whereas a power sword bought for a standard character would contribute to every attack they made.

It would be amazing -on a sagitarrum guard- who has no other Melee weapon but a standard Custodes profile well suited to melee. Otherwise, it's paying full cost for something that will only see partial use. You can't really afford to give it out to most Custodes because it'll add up fast when taken in multiples.

Meanwhile one extra almost-power sword attack on an already high end combat character serves no real purpose beyond a little extra security blanket against the possibility of the dice turning on you. It's never something exciting, just an afterthought.


Which is why he's not saying give it to everyone-he's saying give it to your captains.

Plus, Custodes are, what, 40 points base? That's 10 Knives to drop a single model. Assuming you go cheap. (Well, "cheap".)


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 04:55:46


Post by: Cephalobeard


I'm tentative on updating it until the codex is released, as information is largely produced through leaks and early reviews, and many of those media's report slightly incorrect information.

Regarding Bikes we know the following (with salt)

14" Move, 6" Advance (no roll)
T6, 4W on the normal guys
Option for Missiles or Hurricane Bolters.

I'll gather the information from GW and update this post accordingly with it.



Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 04:57:19


Post by: Audustum


 Cephalobeard wrote:
Entirely agreed. Also, yeah, it's just a 4pt ap-2 chainsword.

Happy to move on to the next thing lol



Actually, I wanted to see I'm more your mirror than your opposite. I don't like them on captains, but jamming them on to Guard/Wardens en masse sounds like it could really add up! More expensive but worth thinking about to me.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 05:00:19


Post by: Cephalobeard


Here are the weapon profiles for the Bikers, as well as the Bikers specific Stratagem while they're being discussed. Will update the OP as well.

[Thumb - 40kCustodes-Jan17-SalvoLauncher2uf.jpg]
[Thumb - 40kCustodes-Jan17-Lance3ys.jpg]
[Thumb - 40kCustodes-Jan17-Dive4ha (1).jpg]


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 05:02:08


Post by: JNAProductions


I'm confused about when you'd want to use the Flakk Missiles. The Melta Missiles seem almost universally better.

Edit: Also, thanks!


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 05:02:30


Post by: Cephalobeard


Audustum wrote:
 Cephalobeard wrote:
Entirely agreed. Also, yeah, it's just a 4pt ap-2 chainsword.

Happy to move on to the next thing lol



Actually, I wanted to see I'm more your mirror than your opposite. I don't like them on captains, but jamming them on to Guard/Wardens en masse sounds like it could really add up! More expensive but worth thinking about to me.


Totally an option!

If you can guarantee they get in combat, the attacks add up rapidly. Compare it as JNA did previously, where a stock Custodes without wargear is 40pts, you could also add 10 s5 ap-2 1d attacks for equal points on other units. Not implying that is, necessarily, a solid choice, but it's something you could try on a variety of units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JNAProductions wrote:
I'm confused about when you'd want to use the Flakk Missiles. The Melta Missiles seem almost universally better.

Edit: Also, thanks!


A good number of people far better at mathhammer than I came to the same conclusion. Flakk is pretty bad almost always, unless you're shooting at gun drones or gargoyles for some reason.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 05:09:20


Post by: changemod


 Cephalobeard wrote:
I'm not even a little up in arms. I wrote a long post for you after two short ones because you opted to condescendingly imply I wasn't understanding you. I'm not bothered. I'm offering you the benefit of a doubt of explaining my intention instead of writing two single sentence posts.


As much as conversations on this format of forum have a tendency to drip with whithering passive aggressiveness to the point of putting me off spending much time on them in the past few years, reading "You're missing the point" as a condescending statement seems a bit odd.

Anyhow yeah most units in this codex, at least all the non-vehicle ones, tend to overlap massively in role and capability. In that context, bikers stand out as very much the most efficient unit: More than double the movement, higher survivability and a decent output of small arms fire not really found elsewhere.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 05:14:15


Post by: Cephalobeard


Bikes were just confirmed as 35£/$60, so not only do they rest as the most efficient unit points wise but they're very efficient for the wallet, as well. Much more than expected.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 05:38:21


Post by: Spartacus


changemod wrote:


Anyhow yeah most units in this codex, at least all the non-vehicle ones, tend to overlap massively in role and capability. In that context, bikers stand out as very much the most efficient unit: More than double the movement, higher survivability and a decent output of small arms fire not really found elsewhere.


Totally agree, but on the other hand I'm sure someone up against a Custodes list will also agree. My first impressions are that bike units will suffer from being the obvious threat and therefore focussed down to the exclusion of all else. If I had a bunch of lascannons and had to choose between shooting a wall of Custodian Guard with storm shields, a Venerable Land Raider/Contemptor (if you take these for some weird reason), or a unit of Vertus Praetors, I would pick the bikes every time for exactly the reasons you listed. They are tough, but not that tough for 90 points. The Vexilla helps durability vs ranged shooting, but to keep the bikes in range of it you give up their mobility.

As such, even though they are powerful and capable I don't think they will be a great fit into a pure Custodes force. They will either rush forward, get isolated and taken out before your footsloggers get into the fight, or sit back under the protection of the murderball in which case you might as well just take more Custodian Guard troop units.

Of course that's where the beauty of the Vertus Shield Captain becomes apparent, your opponent will have no option to attack them with the scary multi damage heavy weapons until you choose to reveal them. While you do give up considerable efficiency in offensive capability, the Bike-Captains also fill out HQ slots so you will find it significantly easier to form Battalions etc. They are also great candidates for many of the hugely powerful Relics that Custodes appear to have available.

I see that many people in the community have caught onto this idea and are formulating armies including several of them. 'Bike-Captain spam' is already a term I've seen used. I assume this is the logic behind the trend and just thought it might be valuable to lay out my own thoughts on the matter for others to read/ignore


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 09:46:31


Post by: BrianDavion


I think this thread may be slightly pre-mature as until we get the codex, stuff like points efficancy etc won't be something we can really discuss.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 10:41:55


Post by: Amishprn86


BrianDavion wrote:
I think this thread may be slightly pre-mature as until we get the codex, stuff like points efficancy etc won't be something we can really discuss.


The book is out there if you look, everything, points, etc....


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 10:57:14


Post by: Oberron


Another thought about the land raider.

Is it made obsolete by jet bikes as a transport? The jet bikes even a unit of 5 of them are cheaper than the LR+ 5 man boys, hit harder, have more shooting(is it better shooting?).

The other thing is are they tougher and more survivable? The lr being a hard candy shell over a jawbreaker I guess is alright but doesn't seem worth it compared.

I'm stubbornly not a fan of the jet bikes but I won't disagree with how good they are. I don't want to be playing white gold scars.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 10:57:19


Post by: Kdash


 Amishprn86 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
I think this thread may be slightly pre-mature as until we get the codex, stuff like points efficancy etc won't be something we can really discuss.


The book is out there if you look, everything, points, etc....


I’ve been looking, but can’t find the points for the Terminator Shield Captain and can the Vexillas take the axe as well?

Got a rough setup in mind, but gonna be close on points!


NVM, new youtube vid up showing page by page.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 11:48:05


Post by: Astmeister


I think the Flakk missiles on the bikes might be good against the usual big guys like Magnus, Mortarion, Bloodthirster etc.
They all fly, so even while moving you will hit them on 2+. You also have D3 shots instead of 1 and the AP does not really matter, since they have a good Inv Save.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just mathhammered it:

The Flakk missile does 0.83 damage on average on Magnus, while the Melta missile does 0.78. So the Flakk is better in this case.
Btw the Hurricane Bolter does 1.11 damage on Magnus in rapid fire range, so is even better... if you are closer.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 12:02:57


Post by: stratigo


 Astmeister wrote:
I think the Flakk missiles on the bikes might be good against the usual big guys like Magnus, Mortarion, Bloodthirster etc.
They all fly, so even while moving you will hit them on 2+. You also have D3 shots instead of 1 and the AP does not really matter, since they have a good Inv Save.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just mathhammered it:

The Flakk missile does 0.83 damage on average on Magnus, while the Melta missile does 0.78. So the Flakk is better in this case.
Btw the Hurricane Bolter does 1.11 damage on Magnus in rapid fire range, so is even better... if you are closer.


It takes 8 melta missiles to kill a leman russ. 8 bikers in rapid fire range does 4.444 wounds.

Honestly, GW need to make melta missiles better, the custodes have pretty much 2 sources of ranged damage.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 12:19:17


Post by: Astmeister


If you stand still with the bikes, the melta missiles just need 6 shots for a Leman Russ. ;-)
I think the overall shooting of Custodes is very bad, but this is the case for every army with increasing "elite-status".


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 12:25:29


Post by: stratigo


 Astmeister wrote:
If you stand still with the bikes, the melta missiles just need 6 shots for a Leman Russ. ;-)
I think the overall shooting of Custodes is very bad, but this is the case for every army with increasing "elite-status".


Being that shooting is a lot better than melee, it is going to be an issue for custodes. Why make the bikers the only one with anti tank fire? And then make it heavy. It makes little sense.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 12:28:21


Post by: Mandragola


Spartacus wrote:
changemod wrote:


Anyhow yeah most units in this codex, at least all the non-vehicle ones, tend to overlap massively in role and capability. In that context, bikers stand out as very much the most efficient unit: More than double the movement, higher survivability and a decent output of small arms fire not really found elsewhere.


Totally agree, but on the other hand I'm sure someone up against a Custodes list will also agree. My first impressions are that bike units will suffer from being the obvious threat and therefore focussed down to the exclusion of all else. If I had a bunch of lascannons and had to choose between shooting a wall of Custodian Guard with storm shields, a Venerable Land Raider/Contemptor (if you take these for some weird reason), or a unit of Vertus Praetors, I would pick the bikes every time for exactly the reasons you listed. They are tough, but not that tough for 90 points. The Vexilla helps durability vs ranged shooting, but to keep the bikes in range of it you give up their mobility.

As such, even though they are powerful and capable I don't think they will be a great fit into a pure Custodes force. They will either rush forward, get isolated and taken out before your footsloggers get into the fight, or sit back under the protection of the murderball in which case you might as well just take more Custodian Guard troop units.

Of course that's where the beauty of the Vertus Shield Captain becomes apparent, your opponent will have no option to attack them with the scary multi damage heavy weapons until you choose to reveal them. While you do give up considerable efficiency in offensive capability, the Bike-Captains also fill out HQ slots so you will find it significantly easier to form Battalions etc. They are also great candidates for many of the hugely powerful Relics that Custodes appear to have available.

I see that many people in the community have caught onto this idea and are formulating armies including several of them. 'Bike-Captain spam' is already a term I've seen used. I assume this is the logic behind the trend and just thought it might be valuable to lay out my own thoughts on the matter for others to read/ignore

I think it remains to be seen how good the HQ Custidians are, compared to normal guys.

The issue is that normal guys are so good. They carry the same weapons as the HQs, hit on 2s as well and have the same strength. More normal guys give you more attacks with your spears and axes.

I think there's a pretty strong case for an infantry HQ with an axe. Axe units like wardens will likely be focussed down if you foot slog, but characters cannot be. So I think you'll want to give axes to your Vexillae and maybe have a shield captain with axe kicking around too.

Biker captains that stay behind your lines may as well be cheaper infantry captains - especially since that way the infantry will actually benefit from their buffs. They cost nearly twice the price as a biker, but don't compare very well to two bikers in my opinion.

I think maybe a unit of Wardens are worth teleporting in. As ever, the difficulty is justifying why not to just take more bikes though. If you can line up a clever bit of teleport shenanigans, possibly involving a vexilla with the bodyguard teleporter relic and Celestine, then you can get their axes to work. But actually bikers do very similar damage to axes on the charge, so more bikes and more hurricane bolters are always going to be good.

A lot of people are looking at the biker counter-charge stratagem as a tactic against enemy assaults, but I don't think that's its only role. It really increases the threat from bikes because they are just going to keep on charging. If you're up against a gunline and any of your bikes are alive and not engaged in the enemy assault phase you can charge and kill something, so the unit can go through two enemy units a turn instead of just one.

Now that might not always be a great use of 3CP, but I think it ha the effect of really forcing your opponent to kill your bikes. Field enough of them and he'll struggle to do so.

I'm really not sure whether Custodes are best as a solo army or allied with something else. Sisters might actually be quite a good option, because Celestine exists. You can make a cheap battalion of them that might do a little bit of work from you occasionally.

That said, IG remain clearly the obvious choice to team up with Custodes. Honestly I'm not sure what they really bring to the IG party though. IG aren't scared of being charged right now. Adding a few bikes might help an IG army but they could just as easily add more guns instead, for the same or better result.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 12:53:01


Post by: Amishprn86


I'm doing Custodes and SOB, 3-4 Doms squads with Celestine is going to be fun.

I just dont know how i want my bikers yet, I might make them my more AT/MC and the Doms all SB's or make my Bikes AI and the SoB AT. I also have a Xiphon interceptor.

Like you, i think IG will be amazing with them, bring the 3++/FnP Shield captain with 1-2 units of Bikes and fill in with IG for the rest of the 1200-1500pts


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 12:58:40


Post by: Kdash


I was going to go just over 1k of Custodes and just under 1k of Guard, however, I’ve now changed that up, to a Custodes Vanguard of ~1k, a battalion of Guard and a battalion of Admech.

68 models in an army that contains Guard


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 13:03:25


Post by: stratigo


 Amishprn86 wrote:
I'm doing Custodes and SOB, 3-4 Doms squads with Celestine is going to be fun.

I just dont know how i want my bikers yet, I might make them my more AT/MC and the Doms all SB's or make my Bikes AI and the SoB AT. I also have a Xiphon interceptor.

Like you, i think IG will be amazing with them, bring the 3++/FnP Shield captain with 1-2 units of Bikes and fill in with IG for the rest of the 1200-1500pts


sisters AT is more points effective


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 13:27:22


Post by: obsidiankatana


Regarding the bog standard Custodian Guard (I know, I know, not the best unit by a long shot in this book!), what do people think of swords vs spears? Prior it was sword and board all day from my POV, due to a 3++ vs a 5++ with the only benefit of a spear being +1STR.

The difference is closer now at 3++ vs 4++, but is it still worth it grabbing sword and board? It occurs to me that this is still their only non-HQ unit capable of getting 3++ and the statline of the spear is hardly unique (what with bikes having a spear that re-roll wounds, if doesn't benefit from guardian spear stratagem).


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 13:29:06


Post by: ritualnet


 Cephalobeard wrote:
Hey, Hey.

My FLGS with likely be doing an Escalation league, as well.

Personally I would advise starting that endeavor with either a Patrol or a Supreme command.

Mine will just be a supreme command of 3x Captains on Bikes w/ Daggers once I catch the second round of it.


Sorry, I didn't see this originally!

I wonder if these are too elite to do a 500pt starting league with, although later on they would be nice to splash in once it hits 1-2k. Considering 1 player has guard, the other has orks, it would be... three to four models, vs 20+ in the first game, which would be amusing.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 13:30:34


Post by: stratigo


 obsidiankatana wrote:
Regarding the bog standard Custodian Guard (I know, I know, not the best unit by a long shot in this book!), what do people think of swords vs spears? Prior it was sword and board all day from my POV, due to a 3++ vs a 5++ with the only benefit of a spear being +1STR.

The difference is closer now at 3++ vs 4++, but is it still worth it grabbing sword and board? It occurs to me that this is still their only non-HQ unit capable of getting 3++ and the statline of the spear is hardly unique (what with bikes having a spear that re-roll wounds, if doesn't benefit from guardian spear stratagem).


It grinds my teeth that the termies don't get a 3++.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 13:49:17


Post by: Astmeister


I might run the following 2000 pts army

Super Heavy Detachment

Knight Errant
Thunderstrike Gauntlet

Knight Paladin

Knight Crusader
Thermal Cannon, Avenger Gatling, Ironstorm Missile Pod

Supreme Command Detachement Custodes

3x Shield Captain on Bike


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 13:56:21


Post by: obsidiankatana


stratigo wrote:
 obsidiankatana wrote:
Regarding the bog standard Custodian Guard (I know, I know, not the best unit by a long shot in this book!), what do people think of swords vs spears? Prior it was sword and board all day from my POV, due to a 3++ vs a 5++ with the only benefit of a spear being +1STR.

The difference is closer now at 3++ vs 4++, but is it still worth it grabbing sword and board? It occurs to me that this is still their only non-HQ unit capable of getting 3++ and the statline of the spear is hardly unique (what with bikes having a spear that re-roll wounds, if doesn't benefit from guardian spear stratagem).


It grinds my teeth that the termies don't get a 3++.


It's a bit irritating for sure. Right up there with the standard spear/axe guns not being rapid fire 2, but we gotta deal with what we got.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 13:58:22


Post by: Mandragola


Maybe there's more synergy with sisters than with guard (who don't need the AM) then. Both want to get near the enemy. Celestine exists.

A problem with IG infantry to screen custodes is that they won't do it for very long. It's almost pointless to fire anti-personnel weapons at Custodes, so they'll all get aimed at the guardsmen. To be honest the sisters squads probably won't last much longer though, so maybe that doesn't matter. 5 sisters only cost a bit more than 10 IG, and are sort of roughly equal in terms of toughness.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 14:05:27


Post by: stratigo


 obsidiankatana wrote:
stratigo wrote:
 obsidiankatana wrote:
Regarding the bog standard Custodian Guard (I know, I know, not the best unit by a long shot in this book!), what do people think of swords vs spears? Prior it was sword and board all day from my POV, due to a 3++ vs a 5++ with the only benefit of a spear being +1STR.

The difference is closer now at 3++ vs 4++, but is it still worth it grabbing sword and board? It occurs to me that this is still their only non-HQ unit capable of getting 3++ and the statline of the spear is hardly unique (what with bikes having a spear that re-roll wounds, if doesn't benefit from guardian spear stratagem).


It grinds my teeth that the termies don't get a 3++.


It's a bit irritating for sure. Right up there with the standard spear/axe guns not being rapid fire 2, but we gotta deal with what we got.


Which is probably not to take terminators >.>


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 14:08:55


Post by: obsidiankatana


stratigo wrote:
 obsidiankatana wrote:
stratigo wrote:
 obsidiankatana wrote:
Regarding the bog standard Custodian Guard (I know, I know, not the best unit by a long shot in this book!), what do people think of swords vs spears? Prior it was sword and board all day from my POV, due to a 3++ vs a 5++ with the only benefit of a spear being +1STR.

The difference is closer now at 3++ vs 4++, but is it still worth it grabbing sword and board? It occurs to me that this is still their only non-HQ unit capable of getting 3++ and the statline of the spear is hardly unique (what with bikes having a spear that re-roll wounds, if doesn't benefit from guardian spear stratagem).


It grinds my teeth that the termies don't get a 3++.


It's a bit irritating for sure. Right up there with the standard spear/axe guns not being rapid fire 2, but we gotta deal with what we got.


Which is probably not to take terminators >.>


Eh. I'm still keen on experimenting with a Vexilia Terminator -1 to hit standard coupled with a 5+ man squad of axe terminators and the splitting stratagem. Drop it all on a flank, attempt a T1 charge and split them up next turn regardless if only to cause a headache.

But that aside, I recognize the bikes as the absolute strongpoint. My dilemma, like I said earlier, was with core troops. Sword & Board or Spear?!?!


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 14:22:30


Post by: Ordana


I'd go with spears, especially if you also use Bikers. Since those are more likely to eat the big guns.
4++ instead of 3++, but double the range, -1AP and 2D, and extra str in melee and the ability to use the knife.

(plus spears look better)


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 14:36:08


Post by: Mandragola


According to a preview I saw the shields are going up to 10ppm. If so, I think it's even more clear that spears are the way to go for a full-custodes army.

There's arguably a case for having one or two guys with shields in each squad, to take lascannon shots. But even then going from 4++ to 3++ only helps if you actually roll a 3 - so it's only affecting one shot in 6. At 7 points more expensive than the spear, and with a loss of firepower and strength, I think it makes shields pretty difficult to argue for.

On the other hand, it's very easy to argue against terminators. 84 ppm is just nuts. A squad of 5 to drop in and hopefully get a difficult 9" charge is crazy when you consider that unit costs 420 points. Most of the time it's going to be charging into some random screening squad of nobodies anyway. You're paying 10x the cost of the IG infantry squad you might well find yourself charging into.

Plus it's not even as if deep strike is anything special. It costs 1CP to give it to any of your other units. I'd much rather save a hundred points and use 5 Wardens.

It might be worth putting shield captains and vexillae in terminator armour, if the cost isn't too crazy. The extra wound and ability to deep strike could be valuable on those guys.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 14:41:36


Post by: obsidiankatana


Mandragola wrote:
According to a preview I saw the shields are going up to 10ppm. If so, I think it's even more clear that spears are the way to go for a full-custodes army.

There's arguably a case for having one or two guys with shields in each squad, to take lascannon shots. But even then going from 4++ to 3++ only helps if you actually roll a 3 - so it's only affecting one shot in 6. At 7 points more expensive than the spear, and with a loss of firepower and strength, I think it makes shields pretty difficult to argue for.

On the other hand, it's very easy to argue against terminators. 84 ppm is just nuts. A squad of 5 to drop in and hopefully get a difficult 9" charge is crazy when you consider that unit costs 420 points. Most of the time it's going to be charging into some random screening squad of nobodies anyway. You're paying 10x the cost of the IG infantry squad you might well find yourself charging into.

Plus it's not even as if deep strike is anything special. It costs 1CP to give it to any of your other units. I'd much rather save a hundred points and use 5 Wardens.

It might be worth putting shield captains and vexillae in terminator armour, if the cost isn't too crazy. The extra wound and ability to deep strike could be valuable on those guys.


If shields go up that much then I agree there isn't really even a discussion to be had, spears all the way.

As far as terminators go - I'd worry about the "it's just 1CP" mentality for swapping them out to Wardens. Lose a wound, gain 6+++, lose a CP, gain ~100pts. How many points would it cost you to regain that 1CP? In an army that starves for CPs outside of allies, I may just pay that cost. Then again, I'm speak from a not strictly competitive POV. My FLGS doesn't have 50 man conscript screens or maximized imperial/chaos soup murder trains.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 14:49:00


Post by: Astmeister


How valuable are Allarus Terminators when you use the deep striking + CP for the character assassination stratagem? A squad of 3 can easily kill a commissar in one turn. Maybe it might be good for this.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 15:10:00


Post by: Ordana


 Astmeister wrote:
How valuable are Allarus Terminators when you use the deep striking + CP for the character assassination stratagem? A squad of 3 can easily kill a commissar in one turn. Maybe it might be good for this.

Do Custodes care about the faq'ed Commissar?
Does anyone?


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 15:37:54


Post by: str00dles1


Ordana wrote:
 Astmeister wrote:
How valuable are Allarus Terminators when you use the deep striking + CP for the character assassination stratagem? A squad of 3 can easily kill a commissar in one turn. Maybe it might be good for this.

Do Custodes care about the faq'ed Commissar?
Does anyone?


Considering they can now be immune to moral tests again with custodies banner yes. Its a little bit of points but many lists will use it now.

Good to see spears are the way to go. I have 10 unbuilt and 5 spear 5 sword built. Swords I guess may be the buy to stick in to take the las cannon shot that was mentioned if I have left over points.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 15:48:58


Post by: Ordana


str00dles1 wrote:
Ordana wrote:
 Astmeister wrote:
How valuable are Allarus Terminators when you use the deep striking + CP for the character assassination stratagem? A squad of 3 can easily kill a commissar in one turn. Maybe it might be good for this.

Do Custodes care about the faq'ed Commissar?
Does anyone?


Considering they can now be immune to moral tests again with custodies banner yes. Its a little bit of points but many lists will use it now.

Good to see spears are the way to go. I have 10 unbuilt and 5 spear 5 sword built. Swords I guess may be the buy to stick in to take the las cannon shot that was mentioned if I have left over points.

But then we care about killing a Vexilla, not a Commissar. And no, there is no way your terminator shooting (which is just the axe cause the grenade launcher is out of range with only 12") is even going to dent him.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 15:51:18


Post by: WrentheFaceless


So thinking an allied Outrider with 1 shied cap and 3x3 bolter bikes would be a solid base to ally in some guard muscle.

970 pts of custode bikes leaves quite a bit for guard stuff


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 15:58:05


Post by: Amishprn86


 WrentheFaceless wrote:
So thinking an allied Outrider with 1 shied cap and 3x3 bolter bikes would be a solid base to ally in some guard muscle.

970 pts of custode bikes leaves quite a bit for guard stuff


Im most likely doing this but with 3 bikes with the other option and Sly with 3 Tanks in a Heavy Detachment, the 3 Tanks will be great for me b.c they will work with my SOB.

This way i have SOB, Custodes, IG all able to work together in any combo. I normally only Xenos, but sense i have SOB, and i like these bikes it'll work out great.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 15:58:44


Post by: Audustum


 obsidiankatana wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
According to a preview I saw the shields are going up to 10ppm. If so, I think it's even more clear that spears are the way to go for a full-custodes army.

There's arguably a case for having one or two guys with shields in each squad, to take lascannon shots. But even then going from 4++ to 3++ only helps if you actually roll a 3 - so it's only affecting one shot in 6. At 7 points more expensive than the spear, and with a loss of firepower and strength, I think it makes shields pretty difficult to argue for.

On the other hand, it's very easy to argue against terminators. 84 ppm is just nuts. A squad of 5 to drop in and hopefully get a difficult 9" charge is crazy when you consider that unit costs 420 points. Most of the time it's going to be charging into some random screening squad of nobodies anyway. You're paying 10x the cost of the IG infantry squad you might well find yourself charging into.

Plus it's not even as if deep strike is anything special. It costs 1CP to give it to any of your other units. I'd much rather save a hundred points and use 5 Wardens.

It might be worth putting shield captains and vexillae in terminator armour, if the cost isn't too crazy. The extra wound and ability to deep strike could be valuable on those guys.


If shields go up that much then I agree there isn't really even a discussion to be had, spears all the way.

As far as terminators go - I'd worry about the "it's just 1CP" mentality for swapping them out to Wardens. Lose a wound, gain 6+++, lose a CP, gain ~100pts. How many points would it cost you to regain that 1CP? In an army that starves for CPs outside of allies, I may just pay that cost. Then again, I'm speak from a not strictly competitive POV. My FLGS doesn't have 50 man conscript screens or maximized imperial/chaos soup murder trains.


It's probably 10 for sword AND shield. 10 for shield is likely just for characters otherwise it's a crazy beyond GW's norm.

I'd say in that light you always want swords or axes. Spears are kinda the generalist weapon that is outclassed in survivability by s+s and damage by axe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ordana wrote:
I'd go with spears, especially if you also use Bikers. Since those are more likely to eat the big guns.
4++ instead of 3++, but double the range, -1AP and 2D, and extra str in melee and the ability to use the knife.

(plus spears look better)


Bikes can't use spears, just lances.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 16:03:19


Post by: obsidiankatana


Audustum wrote:
It's probably 10 for sword AND shield. 10 for shield is likely just for characters otherwise it's a crazy beyond GW's norm.

I'd say in that light you always want swords or axes. Spears are kinda the generalist weapon that is outclassed in survivability by s+s and damage by axe.


It's currently 14 for Sword&Shield vs 12 for Spear. If it drops to 10vs12, I'm uncertain again. Sword&Shield can't benefit from misericordia attacks (which spears would still need to pay for), spears can. I think that has me leaning toward Sword&Shield, but still shaky.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 16:04:13


Post by: Ordana


Audustum wrote:
 obsidiankatana wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
According to a preview I saw the shields are going up to 10ppm. If so, I think it's even more clear that spears are the way to go for a full-custodes army.

There's arguably a case for having one or two guys with shields in each squad, to take lascannon shots. But even then going from 4++ to 3++ only helps if you actually roll a 3 - so it's only affecting one shot in 6. At 7 points more expensive than the spear, and with a loss of firepower and strength, I think it makes shields pretty difficult to argue for.

On the other hand, it's very easy to argue against terminators. 84 ppm is just nuts. A squad of 5 to drop in and hopefully get a difficult 9" charge is crazy when you consider that unit costs 420 points. Most of the time it's going to be charging into some random screening squad of nobodies anyway. You're paying 10x the cost of the IG infantry squad you might well find yourself charging into.

Plus it's not even as if deep strike is anything special. It costs 1CP to give it to any of your other units. I'd much rather save a hundred points and use 5 Wardens.

It might be worth putting shield captains and vexillae in terminator armour, if the cost isn't too crazy. The extra wound and ability to deep strike could be valuable on those guys.


If shields go up that much then I agree there isn't really even a discussion to be had, spears all the way.

As far as terminators go - I'd worry about the "it's just 1CP" mentality for swapping them out to Wardens. Lose a wound, gain 6+++, lose a CP, gain ~100pts. How many points would it cost you to regain that 1CP? In an army that starves for CPs outside of allies, I may just pay that cost. Then again, I'm speak from a not strictly competitive POV. My FLGS doesn't have 50 man conscript screens or maximized imperial/chaos soup murder trains.


It's probably 10 for sword AND shield. 10 for shield is likely just for characters otherwise it's a crazy beyond GW's norm.

I'd say in that light you always want swords or axes. Spears are kinda the generalist weapon that is outclassed in survivability by s+s and damage by axe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ordana wrote:
I'd go with spears, especially if you also use Bikers. Since those are more likely to eat the big guns.
4++ instead of 3++, but double the range, -1AP and 2D, and extra str in melee and the ability to use the knife.

(plus spears look better)


Bikes can't use spears, just lances.

I mean the big weapons that you need your invul save for will be shooting at bikes. Making the +1 invul less important for the basic Custodes.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 16:05:11


Post by: Dulahan


So what are people's thoughts on the match up versus various armies?

I know my local meta's going to be... interesting. With at least one force (Tau) that could very well be a Hard Counter due to all the Missile Pods my buddy uses. Hard to avoid Mortal Wounds from a non-Psychic force? Poor Custodes are doomed (And seriously!? Why the heck are Missiles a source of mortal wounds? Why can't an invul stop MISSILES - man I hate the inconsistency of what causes Mortal Wounds)

Dark Eldar also seem an unlikely hard counter with all their Shard Weaponry giving them easy wounds against us, especially combined with some higher str and AP support equipment.

Death Guard and Craftworld Eldar both have lots of Mortal Wound output from non-Psychic Sources (Plus Psychic sources to boot). Plus other strengths that give them an edge too.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 16:18:14


Post by: stratigo


Guard are extremely more shooting efficient, and have a whole lot of blockers to throw up between a tank and a biker and there is no cost effective way to kill a Leman Russ

Chaos can drop in obliterators which I suspect will be pretty darn mean counter. I am going to say that custodes are going to be a fairly non competetive mono army, and will work better in a combination with other imperial forces


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 16:19:01


Post by: Amishprn86


 Dulahan wrote:
So what are people's thoughts on the match up versus various armies?

I know my local meta's going to be... interesting. With at least one force (Tau) that could very well be a Hard Counter due to all the Missile Pods my buddy uses. Hard to avoid Mortal Wounds from a non-Psychic force? Poor Custodes are doomed (And seriously!? Why the heck are Missiles a source of mortal wounds? Why can't an invul stop MISSILES - man I hate the inconsistency of what causes Mortal Wounds)

Dark Eldar also seem an unlikely hard counter with all their Shard Weaponry giving them easy wounds against us, especially combined with some higher str and AP support equipment.

Death Guard and Craftworld Eldar both have lots of Mortal Wound output from non-Psychic Sources (Plus Psychic sources to boot). Plus other strengths that give them an edge too.


Dark Eldar and Harlequins are both Elite army hunters in 8th ed, they will be hard, I think a good Harlequin player will do enough damage in a single turn to weaken Custodes enough to not recover (30 Melta pistols with 80 -2/3 ap attacks with the ability to charge how and when they want) With there -1/4++ vehicles to keep them safe and DSing 12 man shock unit. But i also think a MW heavy Nid army would be hard too, lots of trash in the way to kill the units doing the wounds combine with loads of low ap shots. Then there is CSM.

I would be more worried about armies with MW's combined with 2D+ damage weapons, Mass fire S3/S4 with 0ap isnt going to hurt them that bad. So CSM, DE, Quins, Nids are what i think would hurt the most.

Note: 3-4 wounds on a guy wont kill them, this is something players wont think is important until they shoot 3 different units and see they didnt kill anything even tho they did 12 wounds. Its going to be a different mind set.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 16:56:38


Post by: Audustum


 obsidiankatana wrote:
Audustum wrote:
It's probably 10 for sword AND shield. 10 for shield is likely just for characters otherwise it's a crazy beyond GW's norm.

I'd say in that light you always want swords or axes. Spears are kinda the generalist weapon that is outclassed in survivability by s+s and damage by axe.


It's currently 14 for Sword&Shield vs 12 for Spear. If it drops to 10vs12, I'm uncertain again. Sword&Shield can't benefit from misericordia attacks (which spears would still need to pay for), spears can. I think that has me leaning toward Sword&Shield, but still shaky.


We know GW is on a standardized prices kick (which is how we guess Hurricane Bolters on Bikes are 10. Space Marine shields are still 5 for regular infantry so I have a hard time believing that changed. Space Marines charge 15 for characters though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ordana wrote:
Audustum wrote:
 obsidiankatana wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
According to a preview I saw the shields are going up to 10ppm. If so, I think it's even more clear that spears are the way to go for a full-custodes army.

There's arguably a case for having one or two guys with shields in each squad, to take lascannon shots. But even then going from 4++ to 3++ only helps if you actually roll a 3 - so it's only affecting one shot in 6. At 7 points more expensive than the spear, and with a loss of firepower and strength, I think it makes shields pretty difficult to argue for.

On the other hand, it's very easy to argue against terminators. 84 ppm is just nuts. A squad of 5 to drop in and hopefully get a difficult 9" charge is crazy when you consider that unit costs 420 points. Most of the time it's going to be charging into some random screening squad of nobodies anyway. You're paying 10x the cost of the IG infantry squad you might well find yourself charging into.

Plus it's not even as if deep strike is anything special. It costs 1CP to give it to any of your other units. I'd much rather save a hundred points and use 5 Wardens.

It might be worth putting shield captains and vexillae in terminator armour, if the cost isn't too crazy. The extra wound and ability to deep strike could be valuable on those guys.


If shields go up that much then I agree there isn't really even a discussion to be had, spears all the way.

As far as terminators go - I'd worry about the "it's just 1CP" mentality for swapping them out to Wardens. Lose a wound, gain 6+++, lose a CP, gain ~100pts. How many points would it cost you to regain that 1CP? In an army that starves for CPs outside of allies, I may just pay that cost. Then again, I'm speak from a not strictly competitive POV. My FLGS doesn't have 50 man conscript screens or maximized imperial/chaos soup murder trains.


It's probably 10 for sword AND shield. 10 for shield is likely just for characters otherwise it's a crazy beyond GW's norm.

I'd say in that light you always want swords or axes. Spears are kinda the generalist weapon that is outclassed in survivability by s+s and damage by axe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ordana wrote:
I'd go with spears, especially if you also use Bikers. Since those are more likely to eat the big guns.
4++ instead of 3++, but double the range, -1AP and 2D, and extra str in melee and the ability to use the knife.

(plus spears look better)


Bikes can't use spears, just lances.

I mean the big weapons that you need your invul save for will be shooting at bikes. Making the +1 invul less important for the basic Custodes.


Ah, much more fair point. If the regulars are on an objective though I imagine they'll still want that protection.

(Plus swords look cooler)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
stratigo wrote:
Guard are extremely more shooting efficient, and have a whole lot of blockers to throw up between a tank and a biker and there is no cost effective way to kill a Leman Russ

Chaos can drop in obliterators which I suspect will be pretty darn mean counter. I am going to say that custodes are going to be a fairly non competetive mono army, and will work better in a combination with other imperial forces


Since these are Jet Bikes maybe they'll have Fly? Do Eldar Jet Bikes have Fly? Then you could charge over chaff.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 17:00:26


Post by: obsidiankatana


Audustum wrote:
(Plus swords look cooler)


Ordana wrote:
(plus spears look better)




Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 17:10:52


Post by: ritualnet


 obsidiankatana wrote:
Audustum wrote:
(Plus swords look cooler)


Ordana wrote:
(plus spears look better)




I did not glue shields on, I did not glue shields on, I did noooot.

Oh Hi Emperor


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 17:38:05


Post by: Mr. Funktastic


In terms of the spears vs sword + shield debate I'd say it depends on what you want to use your Custodian Guard for. Personally I'd be using mine up camp on backfield objectives so for a balance of point efficiency and durability I'd go with 1 shield and 2 spears in a 3 man squad to make them harder to remove, especially in cover. The spears can tank low AP shooting and the shield can take AP -2 and better shooting.

Talking about Allarus Terminators I think they have a place in an army given deep striking and strategems associated with them. I can easily see myself using the shoot characters strategem to take out characters (that 2 damage on their guns are huge) and using concussion Grenades to support jetbikes and give the opponent another immediate threat to shoot at besides the bikes.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 0004/01/23 17:50:46


Post by: Dulahan


The Sword & Board very much seem to be "Take and Hold" mid table objective sort of units. High durability with that invul. The Pistol 2 stat on their swords helps against hordes by functionally adding more potential attacks and kills compared to the spears. (Hey, 2 extra rolls per model is 2 extra rolls per model! And even 'just' Str 4 can still hurt bigger stuff with luck)

Not ideal, sadly. For all they were in the old lists. But still good as long as it's not a hyper comp scene.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 18:06:29


Post by: Galas


I think the power ranking of weapons is:
Axes>Spears>Sword+Shield.

The S8 of the axes is such a big deal. It helps you agaisn't T4, T6, T7 and T8. In the other hand the 1 AP that you loss isn't that big of a deal, specially with the stratagem that gives you -1AP for Axes for 1CP if you REALLY need that -1AP for something.

It will come all down to point costs of course. Sword and Shield for me, at least now, has become a mid-field objetive graver equipement, but is much more usefull agaisn't meele horde armies, because with spears if your custodes aren't in combat at least they can shoot things.

But maybe the best way will be to have mix equipement, with a guy with Shield to tank the first hits agaisn't the unit (Something I will not do because I don't like how they look with mixed weapons)


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 18:17:39


Post by: Mr. Funktastic


That's my inclination as well, my Allarus are definitely taking axes so they can hammer on vehicles and be the bane of every character and Primaris/elites.

I can understand not liking mixing weapon options, I don't mind throwing a storm shield guy in my spear guard squad personally, I like the variety especially if it's good tactically. If anything that's why I'd take Allarus Terminators and try to make them work, sure jetbikes are probably better efficiency speaking but having an army of nothing but jetbikes sounds boring to me even though I love the units. If I can find a good way to combine the Vexilla Teleport Homer strategem with Allarus that would go a long way in their viability.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 18:45:42


Post by: Kdash


From what i've seen from reviews -

Swords are 9 points
Spears are 12 points
Axes are 14 points

Shields on Characters are 15 points
Shields on normal dudes are 10 points


It's hard to tell, but, using this as a base https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMe-kEIBmmQ with a time stamp of around 1:28:40 you can see the other wargear points.

It does also make it seem like the Vexillas cost points as well in addition to the dude carrying it???


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 18:52:03


Post by: obsidiankatana


Kdash wrote:
From what i've seen from reviews -

Swords are 9 points
Spears are 12 points
Axes are 14 points

Shields on Characters are 15 points
Shields on normal dudes are 10 points


It's hard to tell, but, using this as a base https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMe-kEIBmmQ with a time stamp of around 1:28:40 you can see the other wargear points.

It does also make it seem like the Vexillas cost points as well in addition to the dude carrying it???


Looked that over, it seems Sword&Board does in fact now run base cost +19 vs the Guardian spear at base cost +12. That cinches it for me in favor of spears. +7ppm for +1 invul -1 STR doesn't cut it in my book.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 18:54:42


Post by: Kdash


 obsidiankatana wrote:
Kdash wrote:
From what i've seen from reviews -

Swords are 9 points
Spears are 12 points
Axes are 14 points

Shields on Characters are 15 points
Shields on normal dudes are 10 points


It's hard to tell, but, using this as a base https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMe-kEIBmmQ with a time stamp of around 1:28:40 you can see the other wargear points.

It does also make it seem like the Vexillas cost points as well in addition to the dude carrying it???


Looked that over, it seems Sword&Board does in fact now run base cost +19 vs the Guardian spear at base cost +12. That cinches it for me in favor of spears. +7ppm for +1 invul -1 STR doesn't cut it in my book.


I agree, however, i think, where possible i'll personally opt for the Axe anyway, as it's only 2 points more than the Spear and str 8 is one of those "important" levels.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 18:55:49


Post by: Ordana


Kdash wrote:
From what i've seen from reviews -

Swords are 9 points
Spears are 12 points
Axes are 14 points

Shields on Characters are 15 points
Shields on normal dudes are 10 points


It's hard to tell, but, using this as a base https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMe-kEIBmmQ with a time stamp of around 1:28:40 you can see the other wargear points.

It does also make it seem like the Vexillas cost points as well in addition to the dude carrying it???
Yes the BoLS battle from yesterday also mentioned that you pay for the banner on the Vexilla. Which is imo a good thing. They can price the soup banner (5++ bubble) higher without hurting custodes


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/02 18:56:21


Post by: obsidiankatana


Kdash wrote:
I agree, however, i think, where possible i'll personally opt for the Axe anyway, as it's only 2 points more than the Spear and str 8 is one of those "important" levels.


Oh I agree, I was thinking in terms of the base Custodian Guard. Everyone capable of taking an axe will. It's too good not to.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 18:59:18


Post by: Kdash


Ordana wrote:
Kdash wrote:
From what i've seen from reviews -

Swords are 9 points
Spears are 12 points
Axes are 14 points

Shields on Characters are 15 points
Shields on normal dudes are 10 points


It's hard to tell, but, using this as a base https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMe-kEIBmmQ with a time stamp of around 1:28:40 you can see the other wargear points.

It does also make it seem like the Vexillas cost points as well in addition to the dude carrying it???
Yes the BoLS battle from yesterday also mentioned that you pay for the banner on the Vexilla. Which is imo a good thing. They can price the soup banner (5++ bubble) higher without hurting custodes


Damn that sucks, if i'm right in guessing that the costs look to be either 20 or 30 points each, that's immediately adding 50 points onto my army and making me consider even using them now. Can they be taken without the banner upgrade? Because, if not, i think, for 104-134 depending on type and banner, i think i'd rather just have another couple of models or basic squad...


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 19:27:19


Post by: Mandragola


The -1 to hit aura is worth an awful lot - except against ****ing dark reapers of course. But it would be pricey to have more than one. It would really help against IG. Maybe it's true that you just want more guys. The vexilla is only good some of the time but more people are good all of the time.
Ordana wrote:
Spoiler:
Audustum wrote:
 obsidiankatana wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
According to a preview I saw the shields are going up to 10ppm. If so, I think it's even more clear that spears are the way to go for a full-custodes army.

There's arguably a case for having one or two guys with shields in each squad, to take lascannon shots. But even then going from 4++ to 3++ only helps if you actually roll a 3 - so it's only affecting one shot in 6. At 7 points more expensive than the spear, and with a loss of firepower and strength, I think it makes shields pretty difficult to argue for.

On the other hand, it's very easy to argue against terminators. 84 ppm is just nuts. A squad of 5 to drop in and hopefully get a difficult 9" charge is crazy when you consider that unit costs 420 points. Most of the time it's going to be charging into some random screening squad of nobodies anyway. You're paying 10x the cost of the IG infantry squad you might well find yourself charging into.

Plus it's not even as if deep strike is anything special. It costs 1CP to give it to any of your other units. I'd much rather save a hundred points and use 5 Wardens.

It might be worth putting shield captains and vexillae in terminator armour, if the cost isn't too crazy. The extra wound and ability to deep strike could be valuable on those guys.


If shields go up that much then I agree there isn't really even a discussion to be had, spears all the way.

As far as terminators go - I'd worry about the "it's just 1CP" mentality for swapping them out to Wardens. Lose a wound, gain 6+++, lose a CP, gain ~100pts. How many points would it cost you to regain that 1CP? In an army that starves for CPs outside of allies, I may just pay that cost. Then again, I'm speak from a not strictly competitive POV. My FLGS doesn't have 50 man conscript screens or maximized imperial/chaos soup murder trains.


It's probably 10 for sword AND shield. 10 for shield is likely just for characters otherwise it's a crazy beyond GW's norm.

I'd say in that light you always want swords or axes. Spears are kinda the generalist weapon that is outclassed in survivability by s+s and damage by axe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ordana wrote:
I'd go with spears, especially if you also use Bikers. Since those are more likely to eat the big guns.
4++ instead of 3++, but double the range, -1AP and 2D, and extra str in melee and the ability to use the knife.

(plus spears look better)


Bikes can't use spears, just lances.

I mean the big weapons that you need your invul save for will be shooting at bikes. Making the +1 invul less important for the basic Custodes.

I think the case against sword and board has been made. They make your lowest-priority target units tougher. All that does is force your opponent to fire lascannons at your terminators and bikes - like he was going to do anyway.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 19:42:32


Post by: Ordana


Kdash wrote:
Ordana wrote:
Kdash wrote:
From what i've seen from reviews -

Swords are 9 points
Spears are 12 points
Axes are 14 points

Shields on Characters are 15 points
Shields on normal dudes are 10 points


It's hard to tell, but, using this as a base https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMe-kEIBmmQ with a time stamp of around 1:28:40 you can see the other wargear points.

It does also make it seem like the Vexillas cost points as well in addition to the dude carrying it???
Yes the BoLS battle from yesterday also mentioned that you pay for the banner on the Vexilla. Which is imo a good thing. They can price the soup banner (5++ bubble) higher without hurting custodes


Damn that sucks, if i'm right in guessing that the costs look to be either 20 or 30 points each, that's immediately adding 50 points onto my army and making me consider even using them now. Can they be taken without the banner upgrade? Because, if not, i think, for 104-134 depending on type and banner, i think i'd rather just have another couple of models or basic squad...

2 dudes or -1 to hit on a bunch.
Think its worth it for pure custodes.

Not sure for soup. since the invul requires the entire unit to be within 9".


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/01 19:47:22


Post by: Galas


 obsidiankatana wrote:
Kdash wrote:
From what i've seen from reviews -

Swords are 9 points
Spears are 12 points
Axes are 14 points

Shields on Characters are 15 points
Shields on normal dudes are 10 points


It's hard to tell, but, using this as a base https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMe-kEIBmmQ with a time stamp of around 1:28:40 you can see the other wargear points.

It does also make it seem like the Vexillas cost points as well in addition to the dude carrying it???


Looked that over, it seems Sword&Board does in fact now run base cost +19 vs the Guardian spear at base cost +12. That cinches it for me in favor of spears. +7ppm for +1 invul -1 STR doesn't cut it in my book.


I think Sword+Shield should cost the same as Spear. It looks to me more a sidegrade than a upgrade to justify costing more. You sacrifice meele and shooting power for being a little more tanky.
Axes should cost more than spears, thats for sure. Probably 25-30% more. I believe 2 points is too small to justify taking spears when you can take Axes.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 20:14:19


Post by: Ordana


 Galas wrote:
 obsidiankatana wrote:
Kdash wrote:
From what i've seen from reviews -

Swords are 9 points
Spears are 12 points
Axes are 14 points

Shields on Characters are 15 points
Shields on normal dudes are 10 points


It's hard to tell, but, using this as a base https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMe-kEIBmmQ with a time stamp of around 1:28:40 you can see the other wargear points.

It does also make it seem like the Vexillas cost points as well in addition to the dude carrying it???


Looked that over, it seems Sword&Board does in fact now run base cost +19 vs the Guardian spear at base cost +12. That cinches it for me in favor of spears. +7ppm for +1 invul -1 STR doesn't cut it in my book.


I think Sword+Shield should cost the same as Spear. It looks to me more a sidegrade than a upgrade to justify costing more. You sacrifice meele and shooting power for being a little more tanky.
Axes should cost more than spears, thats for sure. Probably 25-30% more. I believe 2 points is too small to justify taking spears when you can take Axes.

I'm inclined to say that the shield costs more because of 5++ to 3++. and doesn't account for the +1 invul from being a pure Custodes force.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 20:17:29


Post by: Galas


Yeah, before the difference between 5++ and 3++ was too big, so it was sword+shield all the way. But with the custodes trait... tables have turned. Maybe in some CA they'll touch the Sword+Shield point cost.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 20:24:01


Post by: Audustum


Yeaaaah, sword and board is way pricey now. I am shocked GW actually did that and broke it's attempt to standardize wargear costs across factions in the process.

I'll probably still use them because my experience in my local meta is a 3++ survives two rounds while a 4++ dies after one, but the costs are definitely out of whack. I think the axe should stay the current cost but sword and spear should be reduced.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 20:24:24


Post by: Mr. Funktastic


What does everyone think of Valoris? Pricewise he's comparable to Cawl, Abaddon, Draigo, etc and I think he can offer a lot. Rerolling hit rolls and wound rolls of 1 for an army that hits on 2+ and wounds on 2+ and 3+ against infantry regularly is certainly helpful but I think his Moment Shackle is what sets him apart. Either fight twice if you REALLY want something dead or recover D3 command points is huge for an army that's going to be starving for them. His warlord trait didn't impress me initially but thinking about it, if you deep strike him with Allarus or near bikes, he's a unit your opponent will never want to charge since they can all perform a heroic intervention to him.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 20:36:06


Post by: Audustum


Honestly? I think k he's overpriced. You can get two other foot slogging HQ's for his price. Moment Shackle doesn't give D3 CP, you recover up to D3 from using a Stratagem but not more than the cost of the Stratagem. An axe HQ is cheaper and still hits at S8. Re-rolling Wounds on 1 is nice, which is basically how I'd describe him: nice, but not worth it.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 20:37:50


Post by: Lemondish


 Galas wrote:
 obsidiankatana wrote:
Kdash wrote:
From what i've seen from reviews -

Swords are 9 points
Spears are 12 points
Axes are 14 points

Shields on Characters are 15 points
Shields on normal dudes are 10 points


It's hard to tell, but, using this as a base https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMe-kEIBmmQ with a time stamp of around 1:28:40 you can see the other wargear points.

It does also make it seem like the Vexillas cost points as well in addition to the dude carrying it???


Looked that over, it seems Sword&Board does in fact now run base cost +19 vs the Guardian spear at base cost +12. That cinches it for me in favor of spears. +7ppm for +1 invul -1 STR doesn't cut it in my book.


I think Sword+Shield should cost the same as Spear. It looks to me more a sidegrade than a upgrade to justify costing more. You sacrifice meele and shooting power for being a little more tanky.
Axes should cost more than spears, thats for sure. Probably 25-30% more. I believe 2 points is too small to justify taking spears when you can take Axes.


I'm working off incomplete data, so correct me if this is completely wrong, but the Axe doesn't have a shooting attack where the spear does, no?

Edit: Looks like I'm wrong. The pic on faeit looks to confirm the axe shoots just as well as the spear, which means you're totally right - 2 points is too small to justify taking spears when the str vs ap trade off swings in favour of the axe.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 20:41:52


Post by: Audustum


Actually, the brief part of the review I saw says the axe CAN shoot if I heard the guy right.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 20:54:45


Post by: Mr. Funktastic


Audustum wrote:
Honestly? I think k he's overpriced. You can get two other foot slogging HQ's for his price. Moment Shackle doesn't give D3 CP, you recover up to D3 from using a Stratagem but not more than the cost of the Stratagem. An axe HQ is cheaper and still hits at S8. Re-rolling Wounds on 1 is nice, which is basically how I'd describe him: nice, but not worth it.


Correct, which is why if you're going to be using 2/3 CP strategems regularly as part of a specific strategy (deep strike strategems, counter charge with the bikes, shooting characters with Allarus, etc) being able to recover potentially the amount you spent or at the very least mitigate the cost somewhat is invaluable IMO especially with the number of great strategems they have. Compared to similarly priced HQs, I think he's solid and a lot more durable and kill-y than they are at that. He might not be an auto include but I think you can make a decent case for taking him in any pure Custodes list barring jetbike spam. Of course, if you're only running Custodes as an allied detachment then I agree, take a Shield Captain instead.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 21:18:02


Post by: Lemondish


So, this is probably a really dumb question and I apologize ahead of time.

But I have a question about the Moment Shackle thing. Is it that once per battle, you may choose to do one of the three things - or is it that you can do each of those three things only once per battle?


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 21:19:35


Post by: obsidiankatana


Lemondish wrote:
So, this is probably a really dumb question and I apologize ahead of time.

But I have a question about the Moment Shackle thing. Is it that once per battle, you may choose to do one of the three things - or is it that you can do each of those three things only once per battle?


Activate the item once per battle, pick one of three things to do. If memory serves.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/02 05:20:13


Post by: Cephalobeard


Here ygo.

[Thumb - 40kCustodes-Jan15-MomentShackle1ys.jpg]


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 22:20:23


Post by: nordsturmking


I am very happy about the AC codex and the new units we get but.

I think the Termis are a bit to expansive. Valoris is probably ok i need to see the full rules. And the Jetbikes are a bit to cheap. So i hope the FAQ will take care of it.

And the thing that concerns me more is the low CP count we will have. I thought there will be a mechanic to give the Custodes more CP. For example every HQ give CP like RG does not 3 but at least 1. Or something like AM's Grand Strategist.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 22:45:43


Post by: Audustum


I doubt FAQ changes it since GW seems to be moving away from FAQ's being for balance. Probably have to wait for full balance review in March.

Off the cuff I'd say sword + board need a price drop, spears need a price drop, Alarus need a price drop. Otherwise looks GREAT!


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 23:31:03


Post by: Pandabeer


 obsidiankatana wrote:
Regarding the bog standard Custodian Guard (I know, I know, not the best unit by a long shot in this book!), what do people think of swords vs spears? Prior it was sword and board all day from my POV, due to a 3++ vs a 5++ with the only benefit of a spear being +1STR.

The difference is closer now at 3++ vs 4++, but is it still worth it grabbing sword and board? It occurs to me that this is still their only non-HQ unit capable of getting 3++ and the statline of the spear is hardly unique (what with bikes having a spear that re-roll wounds, if doesn't benefit from guardian spear stratagem).


Going to a 3++ from a 4++ still makes you 50% more survivable on average against anything that's not mortal wounds, so it's still very nice to have. S5 instead of S6 hurts though, together with sword + shield costing 19 pts... still might do it simply because of aesthetic reasons though


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/23 23:48:23


Post by: Audustum


Pandabeer wrote:
 obsidiankatana wrote:
Regarding the bog standard Custodian Guard (I know, I know, not the best unit by a long shot in this book!), what do people think of swords vs spears? Prior it was sword and board all day from my POV, due to a 3++ vs a 5++ with the only benefit of a spear being +1STR.

The difference is closer now at 3++ vs 4++, but is it still worth it grabbing sword and board? It occurs to me that this is still their only non-HQ unit capable of getting 3++ and the statline of the spear is hardly unique (what with bikes having a spear that re-roll wounds, if doesn't benefit from guardian spear stratagem).


Going to a 3++ from a 4++ still makes you 50% more survivable on average against anything that's not mortal wounds, so it's still very nice to have. S5 instead of S6 hurts though, together with sword + shield costing 19 pts... still might do it simply because of aesthetic reasons though


My new favorite poster in this thread!

And that's a stat I was trying to remember all day: thank you.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/24 00:16:08


Post by: Hoodwink


Don't forget, the shields and spears are not "All models", it's "Any model" so you are open to mix and match as you please. It's not a bad idea to go mostly spears with one or two shields for tanking heavy shots like lascannons.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/24 02:33:58


Post by: Eihnlazer


The point hes trying to make is your spending 4 points on a 2 point weapon. They are priced appropriately however since they are on such a powerful base model.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/24 02:37:22


Post by: Spartacus


Pandabeer wrote:
 obsidiankatana wrote:
Regarding the bog standard Custodian Guard (I know, I know, not the best unit by a long shot in this book!), what do people think of swords vs spears? Prior it was sword and board all day from my POV, due to a 3++ vs a 5++ with the only benefit of a spear being +1STR.

The difference is closer now at 3++ vs 4++, but is it still worth it grabbing sword and board? It occurs to me that this is still their only non-HQ unit capable of getting 3++ and the statline of the spear is hardly unique (what with bikes having a spear that re-roll wounds, if doesn't benefit from guardian spear stratagem).


Going to a 3++ from a 4++ still makes you 50% more survivable on average against anything that's not mortal wounds, so it's still very nice to have. S5 instead of S6 hurts though, together with sword + shield costing 19 pts... still might do it simply because of aesthetic reasons though


Spear + Shield is about as aesthetic as you can get I reckon, then you can call them whatever you like in game


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/24 02:45:29


Post by: Galas


Yeah, I'll take Spear+Shield over any other combination all day even if it isn't competitive...


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/24 03:27:33


Post by: Oberron


Hmmmm what would be the good balance of mixing with sword&B + spear?

min unit: 1 sword and board, 2 spears
4man: 1 S&B, 3 spears????
5man: 2 S&B, 3 spears???
6man:2 S&B, 4 spears
7man: 2 S&B, 5 spears
8man: 3 S&B, 5 spears
9man:3 S&B, 6 spears
10man, 3 S&B, 7 spears ????

are my guesses based off nothing.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/24 03:45:24


Post by: Mr. Funktastic


That seems to be a good ratio to me honestly. For my MSU squads I'm planning on going 1 S&B and 2 Spears.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/24 05:32:57


Post by: WindstormSCR


1 board per two spears seems to be about the right mix, given the cost difference.

Am I the only one that is underwhelmed by the bikes? they are incredibly expensive and seem to be at odds with themselves, wanting both to be in the thick of the fight, yet carrying heavy weapons they take penalties to shoot or horde-clearing weapons that are not the targets they excel against in melee.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/24 06:17:07


Post by: Spartacus


 WindstormSCR wrote:
1 board per two spears seems to be about the right mix, given the cost difference.

Am I the only one that is underwhelmed by the bikes? they are incredibly expensive and seem to be at odds with themselves, wanting both to be in the thick of the fight, yet carrying heavy weapons they take penalties to shoot or horde-clearing weapons that are not the targets they excel against in melee.


The hurricane bolters crack open the shell of guardsmen, then the spears feast on the juicy yolk of whatever they were screening.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/24 06:50:06


Post by: WindstormSCR


Spartacus wrote:
 WindstormSCR wrote:
1 board per two spears seems to be about the right mix, given the cost difference.

Am I the only one that is underwhelmed by the bikes? they are incredibly expensive and seem to be at odds with themselves, wanting both to be in the thick of the fight, yet carrying heavy weapons they take penalties to shoot or horde-clearing weapons that are not the targets they excel against in melee.


The hurricane bolters crack open the shell of guardsmen, then the spears feast on the juicy yolk of whatever they were screening.


I was originally thinking the same, but while putting all the stuff that's currently out into battlescribe (yes the file will be out shortly after release, soon as I can get my digital copy since I'm authoring the data file for this codex), I was doing the math for fun and they seem to provide disappointing results vs T6/7+ because of the Interceptor lances only being S6 even on a charge. I'm aware the Lances reroll to wound on the charge, but my dubious perspective comes from using shining spears to do the same, and the results even with craftworld psychic buffs have always left something to be desired, usually doing far less damage than they would to a more appropriate target. The number of attacks from a full 5 unit of spears is similar, and the strength is identical and the damage output actually more consistent with no armor saves usually taken. and they cost less than the Vertus Praetors!

Castellan Axes are incredibly nasty and far more reliable vs vehicles, as is the grenade launcher relic. The better plan seems to my mind to be clearing the chaff with a different option, perhaps even just regular custodian rapid fire from multiple units, before charging in with the axes to finish the job.

The only time the Vertus Praetors seem worth it at all is comparing to the contemptor (which isn't very hard)


A Land Raider Crusader and/or Redeemer would have been a great add to this army list, and feels like a criminally wasted opportunity to sell more kits and give the custodes a useful tool.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/24 10:01:10


Post by: Syrex


 WindstormSCR wrote:
Spartacus wrote:
 WindstormSCR wrote:
1 board per two spears seems to be about the right mix, given the cost difference.

Am I the only one that is underwhelmed by the bikes? they are incredibly expensive and seem to be at odds with themselves, wanting both to be in the thick of the fight, yet carrying heavy weapons they take penalties to shoot or horde-clearing weapons that are not the targets they excel against in melee.


The hurricane bolters crack open the shell of guardsmen, then the spears feast on the juicy yolk of whatever they were screening.


I was originally thinking the same, but while putting all the stuff that's currently out into battlescribe (yes the file will be out shortly after release, soon as I can get my digital copy since I'm authoring the data file for this codex), I was doing the math for fun and they seem to provide disappointing results vs T6/7+ because of the Interceptor lances only being S6 even on a charge. I'm aware the Lances reroll to wound on the charge, but my dubious perspective comes from using shining spears to do the same, and the results even with craftworld psychic buffs have always left something to be desired, usually doing far less damage than they would to a more appropriate target. The number of attacks from a full 5 unit of spears is similar, and the strength is identical and the damage output actually more consistent with no armor saves usually taken. and they cost less than the Vertus Praetors!

Castellan Axes are incredibly nasty and far more reliable vs vehicles, as is the grenade launcher relic. The better plan seems to my mind to be clearing the chaff with a different option, perhaps even just regular custodian rapid fire from multiple units, before charging in with the axes to finish the job.

The only time the Vertus Praetors seem worth it at all is comparing to the contemptor (which isn't very hard)
.


I'm not quite sure I understand. Given your comments regarding price, I'm assuming you mean regular Custodian Guard.
Running the numbers below - Combining shooting + CC with no captain rerolls.

Bikes
vs T6 3+ - 15.83 wounds
vs T7 3+ - 12.59 wounds
vs T8 3+ - 10.92 wounds

5 Custodian Guard with Spears
vs T6 3+ - 13.19 wounds
vs T7 3+ - 9.72 wounds
vs T8 3+ - 8.33 wounds

I see a similar result even if you change the enemies armour save, take out shooting, etc.
Now, this is assuming bikes have the charge, though with a 14" movement, you really should be. When your only transport is a 400pt landraider, I feel the bikes movement is truly invaluable. The T6 helps to make up for the -3w vs the guard unit.

I'll certainly agree regarding axes though - they are amazing. I'll be running 5 wardens with axes at a minimum.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/24 11:03:25


Post by: BrianDavion


 WindstormSCR wrote:
Spartacus wrote:
 WindstormSCR wrote:
1 board per two spears seems to be about the right mix, given the cost difference.

Am I the only one that is underwhelmed by the bikes? they are incredibly expensive and seem to be at odds with themselves, wanting both to be in the thick of the fight, yet carrying heavy weapons they take penalties to shoot or horde-clearing weapons that are not the targets they excel against in melee.


The hurricane bolters crack open the shell of guardsmen, then the spears feast on the juicy yolk of whatever they were screening.


I was originally thinking the same, but while putting all the stuff that's currently out into battlescribe (yes the file will be out shortly after release, soon as I can get my digital copy since I'm authoring the data file for this codex), I was doing the math for fun and they seem to provide disappointing results vs T6/7+ because of the Interceptor lances only being S6 even on a charge. I'm aware the Lances reroll to wound on the charge, but my dubious perspective comes from using shining spears to do the same, and the results even with craftworld psychic buffs have always left something to be desired, usually doing far less damage than they would to a more appropriate target. The number of attacks from a full 5 unit of spears is similar, and the strength is identical and the damage output actually more consistent with no armor saves usually taken. and they cost less than the Vertus Praetors!

Castellan Axes are incredibly nasty and far more reliable vs vehicles, as is the grenade launcher relic. The better plan seems to my mind to be clearing the chaff with a different option, perhaps even just regular custodian rapid fire from multiple units, before charging in with the axes to finish the job.

The only time the Vertus Praetors seem worth it at all is comparing to the contemptor (which isn't very hard)


A Land Raider Crusader and/or Redeemer would have been a great add to this army list, and feels like a criminally wasted opportunity to sell more kits and give the custodes a useful tool.



I agree I'm BAFFLED they didn't give Custodes a Land raider crusader/redeemer. it seems like the logical way toi "pad the codex" I THINK the key to it is the name "venerable" these are meant to be heresy era relics


Automatically Appended Next Post:
so I've got 2 squads of sisters of silence and a rhino. I'm thinking how to kit them into a small detachment to support by Custodes, any ideas on built/HQ choice? flamers seem like a potentially intreasting option as it gives me some anti horde


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/24 11:39:38


Post by: Ordana


 WindstormSCR wrote:
Spartacus wrote:
 WindstormSCR wrote:
1 board per two spears seems to be about the right mix, given the cost difference.

Am I the only one that is underwhelmed by the bikes? they are incredibly expensive and seem to be at odds with themselves, wanting both to be in the thick of the fight, yet carrying heavy weapons they take penalties to shoot or horde-clearing weapons that are not the targets they excel against in melee.


The hurricane bolters crack open the shell of guardsmen, then the spears feast on the juicy yolk of whatever they were screening.


I was originally thinking the same, but while putting all the stuff that's currently out into battlescribe (yes the file will be out shortly after release, soon as I can get my digital copy since I'm authoring the data file for this codex), I was doing the math for fun and they seem to provide disappointing results vs T6/7+ because of the Interceptor lances only being S6 even on a charge. I'm aware the Lances reroll to wound on the charge, but my dubious perspective comes from using shining spears to do the same, and the results even with craftworld psychic buffs have always left something to be desired, usually doing far less damage than they would to a more appropriate target. The number of attacks from a full 5 unit of spears is similar, and the strength is identical and the damage output actually more consistent with no armor saves usually taken. and they cost less than the Vertus Praetors!

Castellan Axes are incredibly nasty and far more reliable vs vehicles, as is the grenade launcher relic. The better plan seems to my mind to be clearing the chaff with a different option, perhaps even just regular custodian rapid fire from multiple units, before charging in with the axes to finish the job.

The only time the Vertus Praetors seem worth it at all is comparing to the contemptor (which isn't very hard)


A Land Raider Crusader and/or Redeemer would have been a great add to this army list, and feels like a criminally wasted opportunity to sell more kits and give the custodes a useful tool.

No unit in the codex can clear chaff like Hurricane bikers. Their about 3x more effective then the same points in basic custodes and a unit of 3 will kill a Guard squad (13 dead on average), opening the gap they need.

Axes are great for combat but the only platform they really come on are Terminators and Wardens and they look to be sub-par, which is bad when your army needs everyone to perform and can't afford to 'waste' points.

Speaking of Wardens. Does anyone know an approximate cost for them? I'm now wondering if its worth bringing a decent sized Warden unit as the main beef.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/24 12:02:40


Post by: Kdash


Ordana wrote:
 WindstormSCR wrote:
Spartacus wrote:
 WindstormSCR wrote:
1 board per two spears seems to be about the right mix, given the cost difference.

Am I the only one that is underwhelmed by the bikes? they are incredibly expensive and seem to be at odds with themselves, wanting both to be in the thick of the fight, yet carrying heavy weapons they take penalties to shoot or horde-clearing weapons that are not the targets they excel against in melee.


The hurricane bolters crack open the shell of guardsmen, then the spears feast on the juicy yolk of whatever they were screening.


I was originally thinking the same, but while putting all the stuff that's currently out into battlescribe (yes the file will be out shortly after release, soon as I can get my digital copy since I'm authoring the data file for this codex), I was doing the math for fun and they seem to provide disappointing results vs T6/7+ because of the Interceptor lances only being S6 even on a charge. I'm aware the Lances reroll to wound on the charge, but my dubious perspective comes from using shining spears to do the same, and the results even with craftworld psychic buffs have always left something to be desired, usually doing far less damage than they would to a more appropriate target. The number of attacks from a full 5 unit of spears is similar, and the strength is identical and the damage output actually more consistent with no armor saves usually taken. and they cost less than the Vertus Praetors!

Castellan Axes are incredibly nasty and far more reliable vs vehicles, as is the grenade launcher relic. The better plan seems to my mind to be clearing the chaff with a different option, perhaps even just regular custodian rapid fire from multiple units, before charging in with the axes to finish the job.

The only time the Vertus Praetors seem worth it at all is comparing to the contemptor (which isn't very hard)


A Land Raider Crusader and/or Redeemer would have been a great add to this army list, and feels like a criminally wasted opportunity to sell more kits and give the custodes a useful tool.

No unit in the codex can clear chaff like Hurricane bikers. Their about 3x more effective then basic custodes and a unit of 3 will kill a Guard squad (13 dead on average), opening the gap they need.

Axes are great for combat but the only platform they really come on are Terminators and Wardens and they look to be sub-par, which is bad when your army needs everyone to perform and can't afford to 'waste' points.

Speaking of Wardens. Does anyone know an approximate cost for them? I'm now wondering if its worth bringing a decent sized Warden unit as the main beef.


Wardens are 62 points each with the Spear and 64 each with the axe (i believe).

The most shocking combo i'm seeing so far is - biker captain advances up turn 1. If he doesnt get charged, potentially use 3CP to charge. TP in a Vexilla with the Praetorian Plate and +1 A banner. Start of your turn, TP in a unit of Terminators using 3 more CP, while the captain flies off. You now have 2 units in terminator armour likely in their lines causing problems turn 2. You could also just TP them in normally, but then risk the 9" charge and likely having to shoot that unit as well.

Super expensive in CP, but... That's what Guard are for! Certainly not something Custodes can do in a pure army.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/24 12:21:29


Post by: Amishprn86


Whos going to let that happen tho?


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/24 12:44:23


Post by: Mr. Funktastic


Ordana wrote:
 WindstormSCR wrote:
Spartacus wrote:
 WindstormSCR wrote:
1 board per two spears seems to be about the right mix, given the cost difference.

Am I the only one that is underwhelmed by the bikes? they are incredibly expensive and seem to be at odds with themselves, wanting both to be in the thick of the fight, yet carrying heavy weapons they take penalties to shoot or horde-clearing weapons that are not the targets they excel against in melee.


The hurricane bolters crack open the shell of guardsmen, then the spears feast on the juicy yolk of whatever they were screening.


I was originally thinking the same, but while putting all the stuff that's currently out into battlescribe (yes the file will be out shortly after release, soon as I can get my digital copy since I'm authoring the data file for this codex), I was doing the math for fun and they seem to provide disappointing results vs T6/7+ because of the Interceptor lances only being S6 even on a charge. I'm aware the Lances reroll to wound on the charge, but my dubious perspective comes from using shining spears to do the same, and the results even with craftworld psychic buffs have always left something to be desired, usually doing far less damage than they would to a more appropriate target. The number of attacks from a full 5 unit of spears is similar, and the strength is identical and the damage output actually more consistent with no armor saves usually taken. and they cost less than the Vertus Praetors!

Castellan Axes are incredibly nasty and far more reliable vs vehicles, as is the grenade launcher relic. The better plan seems to my mind to be clearing the chaff with a different option, perhaps even just regular custodian rapid fire from multiple units, before charging in with the axes to finish the job.

The only time the Vertus Praetors seem worth it at all is comparing to the contemptor (which isn't very hard)


A Land Raider Crusader and/or Redeemer would have been a great add to this army list, and feels like a criminally wasted opportunity to sell more kits and give the custodes a useful tool.

No unit in the codex can clear chaff like Hurricane bikers. Their about 3x more effective then the same points in basic custodes and a unit of 3 will kill a Guard squad (13 dead on average), opening the gap they need.

Axes are great for combat but the only platform they really come on are Terminators and Wardens and they look to be sub-par, which is bad when your army needs everyone to perform and can't afford to 'waste' points.

Speaking of Wardens. Does anyone know an approximate cost for them? I'm now wondering if its worth bringing a decent sized Warden unit as the main beef.


I think the Allarus can be a solid choice to any pure Custodes army, they can be an excellent complement to the Vertus Praetors by deep striking in and making your jetbikes a less obvious target to shoot at by giving your opponent another immediate threat to deal with (make them more durable by deep striking in a -1 to hit Vexilla). Their associated stratagems are also not to be overlooked, the concussion grenades is a great tool that can support any part of your army trying to get into melee by making units with lots of shots or flamer type autohit weapons much less scary to charge (Wraithguard with D-Scythes are a viable charge target again) and their shoot a character stratagem is better than it sounds given the shooting from their axes/spears do 2 damage a shot and their grenade launchers are AP -3, they can potentially cripple or even outright kill the enemy warlord just from the shooting.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/24 12:57:11


Post by: Kdash


 Amishprn86 wrote:
Whos going to let that happen tho?


Thats the thing though - they generally can't stop it. The Captain charging happens in their charge phase, so does the TPing Vexilla. Then, at the end of your next movement phase, you can TP in the terminators. Essentially, you're the one making all the moves during their turn.

The only way to stop it, is being outside of 12" of the Captain on bike - but chances are they will want to be, in order to try and kill the bikers off.

They could also try to surround the character, but the bike base is pretty big, and, you only have to get within 3" of the Captain.

And, if they do charge the captain and you TP the Vexilla in, they can't target the Vexilla due to them not having declared the charge!


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/24 13:06:02


Post by: Ordana


Kdash wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
Whos going to let that happen tho?


Thats the thing though - they generally can't stop it. The Captain charging happens in their charge phase, so does the TPing Vexilla. Then, at the end of your next movement phase, you can TP in the terminators. Essentially, you're the one making all the moves during their turn.

The only way to stop it, is being outside of 12" of the Captain on bike - but chances are they will want to be, in order to try and kill the bikers off.

They could also try to surround the character, but the bike base is pretty big, and, you only have to get within 3" of the Captain.

And, if they do charge the captain and you TP the Vexilla in, they can't target the Vexilla due to them not having declared the charge!

Yeah... It might work once when they don't expect it.
Then they learn to take a step back and resume shooting instead.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/24 13:50:57


Post by: Kdash


Ordana wrote:
Kdash wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
Whos going to let that happen tho?


Thats the thing though - they generally can't stop it. The Captain charging happens in their charge phase, so does the TPing Vexilla. Then, at the end of your next movement phase, you can TP in the terminators. Essentially, you're the one making all the moves during their turn.

The only way to stop it, is being outside of 12" of the Captain on bike - but chances are they will want to be, in order to try and kill the bikers off.

They could also try to surround the character, but the bike base is pretty big, and, you only have to get within 3" of the Captain.

And, if they do charge the captain and you TP the Vexilla in, they can't target the Vexilla due to them not having declared the charge!

Yeah... It might work once when they don't expect it.
Then they learn to take a step back and resume shooting instead.


Oh, i agree, once used they can likely plan around it, but, for ~516 points, it's a hell of a problem bubble in the middle of the table, that they will then potentially have an issue dealing with - even if you don't drop them into combat.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/24 16:40:42


Post by: Dulahan


The lack of other Land Raider Variants is baffling to me as well. It seems like a completely effortless (model wise, at least) thing to do to add some variety to the list. Because really? 13 Data Sheets? That's... not a lot. Especially with nearly half being Characters (HQ variants and Vexilla).

It really is rather obvious this was a rush job codex due to the popularity of Prospero last year. I mean, I'm super happy we have it! But it really could've used more units.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/24 16:56:18


Post by: Amishprn86


What? Nah. You can make your own! We have rules for them in CA! YAY!


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/24 17:00:15


Post by: Galas


GW said this will not be all for Custodes. So we could expect more Custodes units in the future.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/24 17:08:43


Post by: basedgigi


Whats the minimum unit size on alarus termies? cause if its one i was thinking of making a vanguard of a termy captain, a termy, a vexilia, and a contemptor dread to add to my space marines


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/24 17:09:21


Post by: Kdash


basedgigi wrote:
Whats the minimum unit size on alarus termies? cause if its one i was thinking of making a vanguard of a termy captain, a termy, a vexilia, and a contemptor dread to add to my space marines


Every unit is 3-10 i believe.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/24 17:17:26


Post by: Dulahan


Yeah, whoever told Valrak it was 1 during the reveal event was apparently wrong. :(


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/24 17:30:01


Post by: Galas


A shame, you'll end short if you use the box to make the vexilla + captain. Youll need two boxes to have a unit of 4. The same for the bikes, you'll need two boxes minimun.
With the basic squad you don't have that problem because the minimun size is 3.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/24 17:50:08


Post by: Amishprn86


 Galas wrote:
A shame, you'll end short if you use the box to make the vexilla + captain. Youll need two boxes to have a unit of 4. The same for the bikes, you'll need two boxes minimun.
With the basic squad you don't have that problem because the minimun size is 3.


I want 1 Shield Captain on Bike, and at least 2 units of HB's and 1 other unit, so that means i'll buy 4 boxes, I mean its actually really cheap so i dont mind, but this also means i'll have 2 Spare bikes to play around with.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/24 18:01:03


Post by: Ordana


 Dulahan wrote:
The lack of other Land Raider Variants is baffling to me as well. It seems like a completely effortless (model wise, at least) thing to do to add some variety to the list. Because really? 13 Data Sheets? That's... not a lot. Especially with nearly half being Characters (HQ variants and Vexilla).

It really is rather obvious this was a rush job codex due to the popularity of Prospero last year. I mean, I'm super happy we have it! But it really could've used more units.

10k years ago they didn't have Redeemers or Crusaders.
And I assume the Custodes have not kept their armory up to date with new models.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/24 18:07:36


Post by: basedgigi


 Galas wrote:
A shame, you'll end short if you use the box to make the vexilla + captain. Youll need two boxes to have a unit of 4. The same for the bikes, you'll need two boxes minimun.
With the basic squad you don't have that problem because the minimun size is 3.


Well that sucks, I was hoping to get away with only buying one box . Maybe I could do that with the elite guards? Hopefully their minimum is 3 like with normal custodian guard.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/24 18:12:29


Post by: Mandragola


I think there are going to be some decent combos with deep striking terminators or wardens, a terminator vexilla with the Praetorian Plate, and fast characters for them to go and "rescue".

A jetbike captain is certainly well-placed to do this. Celestine might be even better.

Sisters are extremely good at killing screens, because they do it in the movement phase using acts of faith. Dominions with heavy bolters can dakka away stuff like scouts and IG infantry squads using the acts you get as standard, and from Celestine and an Imagifer.

The CP cost of doing this with jetbikes is prohibitive, so I don't think that would work. You'd need 3CP to charge him in, then teleport your vexilla to him, then 3 more CP to teleport termies to the vexilla. With Wardens you'd have to pay an extra CP to let them deep strike.

I guess that if you're deep striking something, terminators might be the best option overall. Wardens are the most efficient axe-wielders, but termies do have their grenade launchers and can split up and run around the place in later turns. I still think they are overpriced, and I'm not convinced it's worth all this hassle to drop in a single deep strike charge, but the unit does have a use.

So where do Wardens go? In a transport is my best guess. For now that means just the Land Raider, though hopefully before too long the option of the Coronus will come along.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I threw together this list, which to my surprise landed at exactly 2k points (at least based on what we know already). I think it’s quite good but also kind of boring. Once I spotted that you have to pay extra for the vexillae I decided I’d prefer to just have more guys, and messing about with deep strike seems like too much hard work when bikes are so good.

Battalion

Shield Captain with Axe 125

Shield Captain with Axe 125

5 Guards with spears 260

5 Guards with spears 260

5 Guards with spears 260

Outrider

Shield Captain on Bike 160

3 Bikers 270

3 Bikers 270

3 Bikers 270


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/24 18:43:32


Post by: Audustum


Since the Jet Bikes have Fly, can't they jump over most bubble wrap when charging? The wrap could move closer to what its protecting in order to deny them room to land, but at least that constricts the bubble's sprawl.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/24 19:09:16


Post by: Spartacus


I never envisaged taking one initially, but a basic shield Captain with axe seems like an absolute steal for 125 points when you look at what he brings to the table. He will outmatch any similarly priced CC units or characters (aside from maybe the dedicated Character hunters) pretty handily I would imagine.

Then again, its ONLY 35 points extra to make him a bike...


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/24 19:14:11


Post by: Amishprn86


Audustum wrote:
Since the Jet Bikes have Fly, can't they jump over most bubble wrap when charging? The wrap could move closer to what its protecting in order to deny them room to land, but at least that constricts the bubble's sprawl.


Depends on the Wrap, if there is room or not, but yes you can. Its all situational, its an Option that you can do


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/24 20:12:25


Post by: bananathug


yeah, 3 shield captains on bikes seems like it's too good to pass up. Character protection, 3++, FNP, good toughness/wounds...Yes please

Dakka hordes, charge anything tougher.

I hate the supreme command detachment in general but I think I may make an exception for this.

Recommended bits to turn a box of 3 bikers into 3 captains?


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/24 22:47:23


Post by: Audustum


So I was doing math last night, did I screw this up or do Inceptor Lances do better against Imperial Knights than Warden Axes? I compared a unit of 3 Wardens and a unit of 3 Bikers against T8 3+ no invulnerable.

The result was a difference of about 7.5 wounds (axes) to 10.3 wounds (lances). Now the lances are worse for subsequent turns because they lose shred, but the Knight's almost half dead on the charge from just 3 bikes.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/25 01:45:54


Post by: Mandragola


Yeah that’s the way it works. Lances get two chances to wound, needing a 5+. That’s better odds than one chance on a 4+. It’s 5/9 for the lances, vs 1/2 for the axes. Lances also have better AP.

I’m starting to think spears might be preferable to axes, for the same reason. There’s a stratagem to give spears +1 to wound - and a stratagem to give axes -1AP. The end result is that spears give you wounds on a 2+ against more targets (up to T5 instead of T4 for axes) and have better AP too,

Even without the stratagem, spears are basically fine against anything. To be honest, so are axes, lances and sword and board. They all perform very similarly.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/25 02:01:02


Post by: Galas


I don't know.

Spears wound T4 with 3+, T5 with 3+, T6 with 4+, and T7 and T8 with 5+.
Axes wound T4 with 2+, T5 with 3+, T6 with 3+, T7 with 3+ and T8 with 4+.
Axes still seem more versatile for me, and the times you'll need to use the stratagem on Spears for that +1 to wound will be more than the times you'll use the -1AP on Axes. Is not like Custodes will have a ton to CP to burn one a turn to give your spears (Only one unit) +1 to wound when you could have axes instead.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/25 08:39:52


Post by: WindstormSCR


The more I tinker, the more I like Allarus Custodians.

there are so many little quirks and combinations, and the ability to DS vexillas and shield-captains where they'll do the most good is pretty ace.

The praetorian plate does begin to seriously concern me though for some soup lists.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/25 09:36:11


Post by: Kdash


 WindstormSCR wrote:
The more I tinker, the more I like Allarus Custodians.

there are so many little quirks and combinations, and the ability to DS vexillas and shield-captains where they'll do the most good is pretty ace.

The praetorian plate does begin to seriously concern me though for some soup lists.


My original idea was using Celestine and someone with the plate, but, the more I think about it, I feel like a captain on a bike is better (not to mention cheaper). I feel like you are just relying on Celestine’s “I’m alive again” ability just to get where you need to be.

Something deep striking or dropping in with the Raven Guard stratagem could also work, but it’s all about getting your opponent to charge you, or to get into combat during their turn.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, points costs from the News & Rumours thread.

 nordsturmking wrote:
from Bolterandchainsword forum:


a post made by LaLongCarabine

Well I got my hands on a scan of the points values for the codex. Someone care to remind me on rules on posting pics of copyrighted material prior to release?



Until then here we go.

Allarus 3-10, 70pts
Guard 3-10, 40pts
Wardens 3-10, 49pts
Shield Captain - 110 pts
Allarus Shield Captain - 130
Dawneagle Shield Captain - 150
Venerable Dread - 130
Venerable Raider - 283
Vertus Praetors 3-10, 80
Vexilus Praetor - 80
Allarus Vexilus Praetor - 100



Balistus grenade launcher - free
Castellan axe - 14
Combi bolter - 2
Guardian spear - 12
hunter killer - 6
hurricane bolter - 10
Kheres assault cannon - 25
Multi melta - 27
Salvo Launcher - 25
Sentinel Blade - 9
storm bolter - 2
Twin H. bolter - 17
Twin lascannon 50

DCCW - 40
Interceptor lance - free
Misericordia - 4

Storm shield (character) - 15
Storm shield (other models ) -10
Vexilla defensor - 20
vexilla Imperius - 50
vexilla magnifica - 30


Confirms minimum squadsize of 3 for bikes no room for error.
For some reason the Dreadnought went up by 28pts
Land raider is now 36pts more expensive. (go figure that one.)
And Storm shields are now 5pts heavier.


I guess they decided they'd sold enough land raiders and dreads....


If this is the case, then i'm going to have to potentially re-consider my idea of running a Vanguard detachment, cos the cost of those banners are... big - especially the +1 attack one.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/25 12:53:53


Post by: Puscifer


Can the Vexilus Praetor have a Storm Shield and Misericordia?


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/25 13:05:21


Post by: Mr. Funktastic


Using Celestine or a Jetbike SC runs into the same problem, your opponent can just fall back and shoot on their turn so they won't be in range come the enemy charge phase where the plate triggers. You could use Stooping Dive to charge the SC but at that point it costs way too much CP to only maybe get that combo off, at that point I'm not sure it's worth spending 6 CP for both that and the Vexilla teleport homer


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/25 13:30:56


Post by: Audustum


Not many things can Fall Back over 12". You won't be in guaranteed charge range but it'll be close enough to try.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/25 13:37:53


Post by: Kdash


Puscifer wrote:
Can the Vexilus Praetor have a Storm Shield and Misericordia?


I think the only wargear they come with is the dagger,

Beyond the banner, i dont think they have any options at all.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/25 13:51:28


Post by: Puscifer


Kdash wrote:
Puscifer wrote:
Can the Vexilus Praetor have a Storm Shield and Misericordia?


I think the only wargear they come with is the dagger,

Beyond the banner, i dont think they have any options at all.


There are plenty of pics in the dex of them with Storm Shields, so I would assume they can get them.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/25 14:04:46


Post by: str00dles1


Termie armor banner bearer can take a misercordia and has the grenade launcher

normal is a misprint I think....Looking at the codex..

He has all the banner abilities but says its armed with a spear axe or storm shield.

Says he can replace his spear axe or storm shield with a misercordia
If he does not replace his wargrear with a misercordia it may take a misercordia.

Maybe im reading it wrong, but misercordia is just the dagger soooo he can take a spear and the banner?


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/25 14:12:41


Post by: Puscifer


str00dles1 wrote:
Termie armor banner bearer can take a misercordia and has the grenade launcher

normal is a misprint I think....Looking at the codex..

He has all the banner abilities but says its armed with a spear axe or storm shield.

Says he can replace his spear axe or storm shield with a misercordia
If he does not replace his wargrear with a misercordia it may take a misercordia.

Maybe im reading it wrong, but misercordia is just the dagger soooo he can take a spear and the banner?


Shield, Sword or Misericordia I can understand.

Spear and Axe??? How?

Yeah, that does sound like a misprint.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is what I have built so far...

Shield Captain = 128.
Castellan Axe, Misericordia.
Shield Captain = 134.
Sentinel Blade, Storm Shield.
Shield Captain = 134.
Sentinel Blade, Storm Shield.

Vexilus Praetor = 129.
Magnifica, Storm Shield, Misericordia.
Vexilus Praetor = 129.
Magnifica, Storm Shield, Misericordia.

Custodes Squad = 281.
2 with Guardian Spears, 3 with Sentinel Blade and Storm Shield.
Custodes Squad = 281.
2 with Guardian Spears, 3 with Sentinel Blade and Storm Shield.
Custodes Squad = 281.
2 with Guardian Spears, 3 with Sentinel Blade and Storm Shield.

1497/1500.

Just need to add to it. Most likely going to be with Jetbikes.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/25 15:54:21


Post by: str00dles1


Sorry, its Spear, Axe, Or StormShield

Still seems odd, but you can take the Stormshield, the Banner, and the Misercordia. (which youd do all the time as keep your banner alive and still can use dagger)

As for your list, depending on opponent, id either be full spear, or 1 shield and rest spears. +3 to the invuln really isn't a big difference. You are saving 7 points to be far more killy and have a better threat range.

Custodes are like Harleys in a way they play. You need to be fast, precise, and cripple your opponents biggest threats ASAP or its over. They are plenty tanky on their own, don't need to spend points on trying to increase that.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/25 16:18:38


Post by: Puscifer


I face Orks, Eldar, IG, Dark Eldar, Marines of all flavours, Chaos. It’s quite diverse.

I can see where you’re coming from. Might drop them to two Storm Shields, but one isn’t enough for incoming Lascannon or Lance fire. Two always sures up that problem.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/25 16:24:45


Post by: Audustum


I disagree. Only Jet Bikes are fast. The rest of your army needs to maximize survivability in order to actually live long enough to do anything. That means shields over spears. You want kill you get axes or lances, which are hands down better than sword or spear at killing.

If you're not running a battalion, you might never want to have anything but axe or lances. If you are running one, I'd focus on keeping the troops survivable than axes or lances on the rest.

And didn't someone say on the previous page that the shields are like 50% more survivable cause of that +1?


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/25 16:29:28


Post by: Puscifer


Audustum wrote:
I disagree. Only Jet Bikes are fast. The rest of your army needs to maximize survivability in order to actually live long enough to do anything. That means shields over spears. You want kill you get axes or lances, which are hands down better than sword or spear at killing.

If you're not running a battalion, you might never want to have anything but axe or lances. If you are running one, I'd focus on keeping the troops survivable than axes or lances on the rest.

And didn't someone say on the previous page that the shields are like 50% more survivable cause of that +1?


The invulnerable save bonus caps out at 3+. I’m in favour of playing a mobile brick and winning by attrition through toughness, but there is merit to both sides.

Edited the edit...

I can go to 1750 by adding 3 Alarus with Axes and Balistus.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/25 16:52:52


Post by: Audustum


Puscifer wrote:
Audustum wrote:
I disagree. Only Jet Bikes are fast. The rest of your army needs to maximize survivability in order to actually live long enough to do anything. That means shields over spears. You want kill you get axes or lances, which are hands down better than sword or spear at killing.

If you're not running a battalion, you might never want to have anything but axe or lances. If you are running one, I'd focus on keeping the troops survivable than axes or lances on the rest.

And didn't someone say on the previous page that the shields are like 50% more survivable cause of that +1?


The invulnerable save bonus caps out at 3+. I’m in favour of playing a mobile brick and winning by attrition through toughness, but there is merit to both sides.

Edited the edit...

I can go to 1750 by adding 3 Alarus with Axes and Balistus.


Right, sorry, I was unclear. I meant the +1 improvement of a shield over a spear (4++ to 3++).


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/25 16:55:33


Post by: Crazyterran


So, best list is 12 bike captains, right? In 4 Supreme Command Detachments?


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/25 17:01:34


Post by: Audustum


 Crazyterran wrote:
So, best list is 12 bike captains, right? In 4 Supreme Command Detachments?


If you're allowed that many detachments I think there's a good argument it is, yeah.

Might need an outrider at 2k since most tournaments limit it to 3 detachments (if you want to stay pure Custodes).


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/25 17:10:49


Post by: Puscifer


Audustum wrote:
Puscifer wrote:
Audustum wrote:
I disagree. Only Jet Bikes are fast. The rest of your army needs to maximize survivability in order to actually live long enough to do anything. That means shields over spears. You want kill you get axes or lances, which are hands down better than sword or spear at killing.

If you're not running a battalion, you might never want to have anything but axe or lances. If you are running one, I'd focus on keeping the troops survivable than axes or lances on the rest.

And didn't someone say on the previous page that the shields are like 50% more survivable cause of that +1?


The invulnerable save bonus caps out at 3+. I’m in favour of playing a mobile brick and winning by attrition through toughness, but there is merit to both sides.

Edited the edit...

I can go to 1750 by adding 3 Alarus with Axes and Balistus.


Right, sorry, I was unclear. I meant the +1 improvement of a shield over a spear (4++ to 3++).


Ahhhh kk. Yeah that’s correct. With the Magnifica Banner giving -1 to hit, Custodes are really difficult to shift.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/25 17:16:03


Post by: Amishprn86


SO thinking about it....

If you were to say.. ppssshhh do a 500pt tournament 1 detachment.. so um, take Supreme Detachment, and um.. only Captains on Bikes.. i mean.. idk.. thats what 4 bikes?

How/who can beat that at 500pts?


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/25 17:27:55


Post by: Audustum


We're pricier than you think! 4 Captains on Bikes with Hurricane Bolters is 680. Even 3 is 510. So you'd only have 2 and then either a foot slogging HQ or an elite like a Preator.

I'd say your biggest danger comes from people who can sling mortal wounds cheap (Primaris Psykers for example).


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/25 17:33:56


Post by: Mandragola


I don't think lots of biker captains would be better than lots of normal bikers. One biker captain is good because he can hide pretty well, but a swarm of them out in front would be shot at anyway.

At that point you may as well have the multiple targets, and far more firepower, that you get by having more guys. You also get quite a few more spear attacks by taking ordinary dudes.

Unusually, taking normal bikes doesn't give you many more wounds though. Actually captains give you about the same number of wounds per point as normal bikers - so normal bikers aren't tougher exaclty. But they are quite a lot more dangerous.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/25 17:42:51


Post by: Amishprn86


Mandragola wrote:
I don't think lots of biker captains would be better than lots of normal bikers. One biker captain is good because he can hide pretty well, but a swarm of them out in front would be shot at anyway.

At that point you may as well have the multiple targets, and far more firepower, that you get by having more guys. You also get quite a few more spear attacks by taking ordinary dudes.

Unusually, taking normal bikes doesn't give you many more wounds though. Actually captains give you about the same number of wounds per point as normal bikers - so normal bikers aren't tougher exaclty. But they are quite a lot more dangerous.


You know what, i double check the points, the Bikers are better b.c its 3 captains and thats it, vs 1 captain 3 bikers

But the same idea, 4 Bikers, is this possible to beat?



Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/25 17:52:48


Post by: DoomMouse


With the storm shields vs spears debate - don't forget that for the points of 5 storm shields you can have a whole extra custodian. Is 3++ on a unit really worth 3 extra T5 2+/4++ wounds, plus the extra damage output the extra custodian provides? The storm shields make you flatly LESS durable against AP-1, AP0 and mortal wounds (which are probably the biggest concern for a custodian army)

I do think that custodian infantry will be horrifically slow though. The jetbikes are very interesting however...


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/25 18:02:21


Post by: Amishprn86


 DoomMouse wrote:
With the storm shields vs spears debate - don't forget that for the points of 5 storm shields you can have a whole extra custodian. Is 3++ on a unit really worth 3 extra T5 2+/4++ wounds, plus the extra damage output the extra custodian provides? The storm shields make you flatly LESS durable against AP-1, AP0 and mortal wounds (which are probably the biggest concern for a custodian army)


At lower point games you see mass -1 compare to just guns like Bolters and Lascannons. You'll see units with HB's instead of ML/Lascannons, etc... More boies with slightly better weapons is better than 3 less bodies with 1 good weapon.

At least from past experience when i used to play large amounts of Combat patrols (even did a few tournaments for them back, i wanted to try to win Adepticon and others). A list for SM i would do would be Captain, 3 Devs all with 3HB's, 1 ML (and the armorim thingy) with +1 body.

Tho i havent tried much low points in 8th, i always love the game mode, i'm thinking about starting a month event at my local doing low point games and thought about Custodes.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/25 18:20:52


Post by: Audustum


 DoomMouse wrote:
With the storm shields vs spears debate - don't forget that for the points of 5 storm shields you can have a whole extra custodian. Is 3++ on a unit really worth 3 extra T5 2+/4++ wounds, plus the extra damage output the extra custodian provides? The storm shields make you flatly LESS durable against AP-1, AP0 and mortal wounds (which are probably the biggest concern for a custodian army)

I do think that custodian infantry will be horrifically slow though. The jetbikes are very interesting however...


I think someone said it'd take like 108 Bolter shots to down a Custodian. It's not actually very efficient. Using them as an Index army, I much more fear rapid fire plasma.

Edit: My math says it takes 81 shots, on average, to kill a Custodian with Bolter fire. It takes 40.5 S4 AP-1 shots to do the same. It takes 27 S5 AP-1 shots to do it. Not an efficient method to kill Custodes at all in my opinion.

And that's just to kill 1 model not 1 unit. Triple all of those for a minimum squad.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/25 19:18:50


Post by: Mandragola


Audustum wrote:
 DoomMouse wrote:
With the storm shields vs spears debate - don't forget that for the points of 5 storm shields you can have a whole extra custodian. Is 3++ on a unit really worth 3 extra T5 2+/4++ wounds, plus the extra damage output the extra custodian provides? The storm shields make you flatly LESS durable against AP-1, AP0 and mortal wounds (which are probably the biggest concern for a custodian army)

I do think that custodian infantry will be horrifically slow though. The jetbikes are very interesting however...


I think someone said it'd take like 108 Bolter shots to down a Custodian. It's not actually very efficient. Using them as an Index army, I much more fear rapid fire plasma.

Edit: My math says it takes 81 shots, on average, to kill a Custodian with Bolter fire. It takes 40.5 S4 AP-1 shots to do the same. It takes 27 S5 AP-1 shots to do it. Not an efficient method to kill Custodes at all in my opinion.

And that's just to kill 1 model not 1 unit. Triple all of those for a minimum squad.

Yeah but if you play against Custodes you're still going to shoot your bolters, lasguns, shuriken catapults and so on at them - right? It's awful but it's better than nothing. I agree it's not a particular threat.

I think the thing that swings the argument against for spears for me is that the enemy can just shoot at something else instead. If your guards have shields then your opponent is even more likely than normal to shoot his lascannons at your bikes, wardens and terminators. Making your least threatening unit also your toughest unit means they'll live and other stuff will die. Better to make them as scary as possible - which means giving them spears.

They might even manage to shoot dead the odd plasma gunner as they plod forwards.

However, I do think there's probably a case for maybe one sword and shield guy in each 5 man squad. He can tank for as long as he lives, and this doesn't significantly increase the cost of the unit. Every subsequent shield guy is increasingly less likely to be needed, so you'd be better off having a spear.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/25 19:57:51


Post by: str00dles1


Another army option is buy 7 boxes of bikes.

2 Outrider detachments.

1 Captian in each on bike, and 3x3 units of bikes each. 20 total models. You give each of them the dagger and that's exactly 2000 points.

Could even have some of it deepstrike. Could easily do turn 1 charges. Its all Hurricane Bolters though


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/25 20:05:39


Post by: Amishprn86


str00dles1 wrote:
Another army option is buy 7 boxes of bikes.

2 Outrider detachments.

1 Captian in each on bike, and 3x3 units of bikes each. 20 total models. You give each of them the dagger and that's exactly 2000 points.

Could even have some of it deepstrike. Could easily do turn 1 charges. Its all Hurricane Bolters though


Basically what i'm doing, i just placed an order for 4 boxes, only b.c i wasnt going to do a full 2k points with them, tho i might actually b.c its the cheapest army in the game now.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/25 20:11:40


Post by: Audustum


Mandragola wrote:
Audustum wrote:
 DoomMouse wrote:
With the storm shields vs spears debate - don't forget that for the points of 5 storm shields you can have a whole extra custodian. Is 3++ on a unit really worth 3 extra T5 2+/4++ wounds, plus the extra damage output the extra custodian provides? The storm shields make you flatly LESS durable against AP-1, AP0 and mortal wounds (which are probably the biggest concern for a custodian army)

I do think that custodian infantry will be horrifically slow though. The jetbikes are very interesting however...


I think someone said it'd take like 108 Bolter shots to down a Custodian. It's not actually very efficient. Using them as an Index army, I much more fear rapid fire plasma.

Edit: My math says it takes 81 shots, on average, to kill a Custodian with Bolter fire. It takes 40.5 S4 AP-1 shots to do the same. It takes 27 S5 AP-1 shots to do it. Not an efficient method to kill Custodes at all in my opinion.

And that's just to kill 1 model not 1 unit. Triple all of those for a minimum squad.

Yeah but if you play against Custodes you're still going to shoot your bolters, lasguns, shuriken catapults and so on at them - right? It's awful but it's better than nothing. I agree it's not a particular threat.

I think the thing that swings the argument against for spears for me is that the enemy can just shoot at something else instead. If your guards have shields then your opponent is even more likely than normal to shoot his lascannons at your bikes, wardens and terminators. Making your least threatening unit also your toughest unit means they'll live and other stuff will die. Better to make them as scary as possible - which means giving them spears.

They might even manage to shoot dead the odd plasma gunner as they plod forwards.

However, I do think there's probably a case for maybe one sword and shield guy in each 5 man squad. He can tank for as long as he lives, and this doesn't significantly increase the cost of the unit. Every subsequent shield guy is increasingly less likely to be needed, so you'd be better off having a spear.


Maybe it's because of different gametypes we play. My meta uses NOVA missions and NOVA is the only big tournament I go to. Most NOVA missions are 2 objectives in (or near) your deployment, 2 in (or near) opponent's, 1 in center. So I'm expecting my Guards to draw a LOT of fire because they're my primary objective parkers for home + center.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/25 20:54:11


Post by: Kzraahk


Do Dreads and LR get a new buff? I don't see how they could justify making them more expensive otherwise


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/25 20:58:37


Post by: Audustum


Kzraahk wrote:
Do Dreads and LR get a new buff? I don't see how they could justify making them more expensive otherwise


LR's lost 5++ and got 6+ FNP instead. Dunno about Dreads.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/25 21:04:46


Post by: inultus


They just lost the 5++ as they already had the 6+ FNP.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/25 21:05:30


Post by: BrianDavion


Audustum wrote:
Kzraahk wrote:
Do Dreads and LR get a new buff? I don't see how they could justify making them more expensive otherwise


LR's lost 5++ and got 6+ FNP instead. Dunno about Dreads.


they already HAVE a 6+ FNP in the index, so yeah nerfed


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/25 21:49:44


Post by: Audustum


Ouch, extra lame.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/25 21:59:08


Post by: Kzraahk


Yeah, Venerable Land Raider had 2+/5++/fnp6+ already. I guess it's footslogging bananas then


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/25 22:05:46


Post by: Wulfey


Admech is Codex: Dakkabot support detachment. Greyknights is Codex: GKGrandmaster in DK armor. Custodes is Codex: HQs on bikes.

Fluff lovers might run huge biker swarms in big outrider detachments. Tournament soup players (me) will run 3x HQ bikers with stacked up CP and relics. Guys who use youtube to sell painting services will demonstrate their amazing looking foot custodians that never ever go to a tournament.

EDIT: that said, I am totally pumped for this release. I can't wait to have 6 bikes I can slot alongside my guard brigade. 3 victors of the bloodgames on bikes + Celestine sounds like a hell of a lot of fun. Guard mortar spam thins out the screens, and my golden flying characters smash valuable targets.

EDIT2: I think this is actually viable if you really like the models. A whole lot of deepstrike melee lists would be terrified against this. This list would struggle against truly serious gunlines, but you can always deepstrike the bikes.

Custodes outrider:
2x biker HQs, 2x3 bikers, 1x4 bikers

CADIA brigade:
3x commander, 3x astropath (denies), 3x flamer sentinels, 6x guards with mortars, 5x mortar teams

What I can't figure out is who gets the warlord trait. If you put on the biker, then spend 4CP on victors of the bloodgames, then 3CP on deepstrikes, and 1CP on a second relic puts you at 5CP before the game starts with no refunds. And maybe you buy relic of lost cadia for 1CP.

Or you go 5+/5+ base, spend 3CP on relics, then spend 4CP on bloodgames and 3CP on deepstrikes, but maybe you get refunds on those spends if you deploy your 5+/5+ commander first. That gives you 3CP if you get no refunds. Maybe 2CP if you go relic of lost cadia. But I think the blood games and deepstrike will be key.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/25 22:31:48


Post by: Oberron


Ouch really? loss of the 5++ is gonna hurt the VLR even more and a lot of people where saying it wasn't worth it before.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/25 22:43:11


Post by: Mandragola


Well the 5++ never made much difference. It only comes into play at all against weapons with at least a -4AP, and even then only helps if you roll a 5 on your save (so one in 6 of ap-4 attacks). Not a huge deal.

And you could argue that it was odd for the significantly better Custodes LR to cost almost nothing more than a marine one. If the marine LR is the right cost then the Custodes one needs to be more than it was.

But actually Land Raiders are bad. They wouldn't be so bad if they had a rule to let them fall back and shoot, which I think they need in order to be viable.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/25 23:12:45


Post by: Galas


Yeah. A 5++ for a model with a 2+ save with how AP works now isn't really important.
The same goes for Space Marines, in 8th, having a 3+ is basically a 6++. Theres a small number of weapons that have -4AP or higher. And they shouldn't be hitting your space marines.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/25 23:52:08


Post by: Kzraahk


DAE think a few assasins thrown in could add to a Custodes army? I was thinking 2 Eversors and a Culexus


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/26 00:37:58


Post by: Ordana


Kzraahk wrote:
DAE think a few assasins thrown in could add to a Custodes army? I was thinking 2 Eversors and a Culexus

Yes and No.

Culexus obviously helps against smite which is a big weakness and I would most likely run one of playing Custodes.
Eversors draw attention away on turn 1 from your Bikers setting up to hit on T2. However all those basic guns that would bounce off Custodes will just kill the assassins instead so your opponent isnt spending valuable resources on them.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/26 09:31:35


Post by: DoomMouse


Wulfey wrote:
Admech is Codex: Dakkabot support detachment. Greyknights is Codex: GKGrandmaster in DK armor. Custodes is Codex: HQs on bikes.

Fluff lovers might run huge biker swarms in big outrider detachments. Tournament soup players (me) will run 3x HQ bikers with stacked up CP and relics. Guys who use youtube to sell painting services will demonstrate their amazing looking foot custodians that never ever go to a tournament.

EDIT: that said, I am totally pumped for this release. I can't wait to have 6 bikes I can slot alongside my guard brigade. 3 victors of the bloodgames on bikes + Celestine sounds like a hell of a lot of fun. Guard mortar spam thins out the screens, and my golden flying characters smash valuable targets.

EDIT2: I think this is actually viable if you really like the models. A whole lot of deepstrike melee lists would be terrified against this. This list would struggle against truly serious gunlines, but you can always deepstrike the bikes.

Custodes outrider:
2x biker HQs, 2x3 bikers, 1x4 bikers

CADIA brigade:
3x commander, 3x astropath (denies), 3x flamer sentinels, 6x guards with mortars, 5x mortar teams

What I can't figure out is who gets the warlord trait. If you put on the biker, then spend 4CP on victors of the bloodgames, then 3CP on deepstrikes, and 1CP on a second relic puts you at 5CP before the game starts with no refunds. And maybe you buy relic of lost cadia for 1CP.

Or you go 5+/5+ base, spend 3CP on relics, then spend 4CP on bloodgames and 3CP on deepstrikes, but maybe you get refunds on those spends if you deploy your 5+/5+ commander first. That gives you 3CP if you get no refunds. Maybe 2CP if you go relic of lost cadia. But I think the blood games and deepstrike will be key.


Adding three biker HQs to my foot guard brigade was exactly my thinking too! I also like the custodes maelstrom stratagem - 1CP to swap out an unachievable TO is pretty good when you have loads... I'd honestly be more tempted to put the relics on the guard though, and have a grand strategist warlord with kurovs Aquila hiding at the back for command points!


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/26 18:02:31


Post by: Audustum


Do we have any clue on base sizes for the bikes? I imagine they're going to be pretty big.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/26 19:32:04


Post by: Kdash


Audustum wrote:
Do we have any clue on base sizes for the bikes? I imagine they're going to be pretty big.


Going off current sizes - Eldar Vyper and Wave Serpent bases are 60mm and Eldar Jetbikes are 30mm. Personally, i see them being 30mm, as i think 60mm will just be "too big".


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/26 19:38:52


Post by: Audustum


Kdash wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Do we have any clue on base sizes for the bikes? I imagine they're going to be pretty big.


Going off current sizes - Eldar Vyper and Wave Serpent bases are 60mm and Eldar Jetbikes are 30mm. Personally, i see them being 30mm, as i think 60mm will just be "too big".


Thanks!


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/26 19:50:38


Post by: Cephalobeard


42x75mm


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/26 20:02:56


Post by: Wulfey


 DoomMouse wrote:
Wulfey wrote:
Admech is Codex: Dakkabot support detachment. Greyknights is Codex: GKGrandmaster in DK armor. Custodes is Codex: HQs on bikes.

Fluff lovers might run huge biker swarms in big outrider detachments. Tournament soup players (me) will run 3x HQ bikers with stacked up CP and relics. Guys who use youtube to sell painting services will demonstrate their amazing looking foot custodians that never ever go to a tournament.

EDIT: that said, I am totally pumped for this release. I can't wait to have 6 bikes I can slot alongside my guard brigade. 3 victors of the bloodgames on bikes + Celestine sounds like a hell of a lot of fun. Guard mortar spam thins out the screens, and my golden flying characters smash valuable targets.

EDIT2: I think this is actually viable if you really like the models. A whole lot of deepstrike melee lists would be terrified against this. This list would struggle against truly serious gunlines, but you can always deepstrike the bikes.

Custodes outrider:
2x biker HQs, 2x3 bikers, 1x4 bikers

CADIA brigade:
3x commander, 3x astropath (denies), 3x flamer sentinels, 6x guards with mortars, 5x mortar teams

What I can't figure out is who gets the warlord trait. If you put on the biker, then spend 4CP on victors of the bloodgames, then 3CP on deepstrikes, and 1CP on a second relic puts you at 5CP before the game starts with no refunds. And maybe you buy relic of lost cadia for 1CP.

Or you go 5+/5+ base, spend 3CP on relics, then spend 4CP on bloodgames and 3CP on deepstrikes, but maybe you get refunds on those spends if you deploy your 5+/5+ commander first. That gives you 3CP if you get no refunds. Maybe 2CP if you go relic of lost cadia. But I think the blood games and deepstrike will be key.


Adding three biker HQs to my foot guard brigade was exactly my thinking too! I also like the custodes maelstrom stratagem - 1CP to swap out an unachievable TO is pretty good when you have loads... I'd honestly be more tempted to put the relics on the guard though, and have a grand strategist warlord with kurovs Aquila hiding at the back for command points!


Yeah. The HQs are really good. The other way I was thinking of running this was to go pure HQ style on 2 boxes of bikes.

CUSTODES outrider
3x biker HQs (spend 6CP on bloodgames + 3CP on relics)

IMPERIUM soup battalion
1x Celestine+Gem, 1xCC, 3x5 scouts

CADIA mortar brigade
3x CC, 2x astropath, 1x priest, 6x guards with mortars, 3x flamer sentinels, 5x mortar teams, 1x3 basilisks
Put 5+/5+ warlord trait and relic, 16 base CP, 13CP after relics, and 6 5+ refundable CP on biker blood games. Rely on guard non-LOS shooting and HQ heavy mid board.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/26 21:20:47


Post by: Ordana


What do you even spend all those CP's on.

I don't see the point of a Battalion AND a Brigade.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/26 21:42:09


Post by: Wulfey


Ordana wrote:
What do you even spend all those CP's on.

I don't see the point of a Battalion AND a Brigade.


3CP to get two relics. And 2CP per biker HQ to get victor of the blood games on all of them. It gives you 1 reroll hit, wound, and SAVE per TURN. This means you can reroll a save on every overwatch and every opponent turn. On models with 3++ and 2+ saves, that is a huge increase in durability and worth the 2 CP. Think about how many save rolls that is over the course of the game. And if you are watching the LVO stream, yes, if you play competitively and play imperium SCOUTS are mandatory. If you can't space out enemy deep strikes then you lose, period. And if you are bringing the mandatory 3 scout squads, why not take a battalion for more CP? In ITC you just have to have scouts to deal with armies that deep strike every one of their threats. Think obliterators, 30 bloodletter bombs, scions, tau, hell tyranid have some deep strike tricks. Bring scouts or just lose.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/26 22:22:23


Post by: Syrex


Wulfey wrote:
Ordana wrote:
What do you even spend all those CP's on.

I don't see the point of a Battalion AND a Brigade.


3CP to get two relics. And 2CP per biker HQ to get victor of the blood games on all of them. It gives you 1 reroll hit, wound, and SAVE per TURN. This means you can reroll a save on every overwatch and every opponent turn. On models with 3++ and 2+ saves, that is a huge increase in durability and worth the 2 CP. Think about how many save rolls that is over the course of the game. And if you are watching the LVO stream, yes, if you play competitively and play imperium SCOUTS are mandatory. If you can't space out enemy deep strikes then you lose, period. And if you are bringing the mandatory 3 scout squads, why not take a battalion for more CP? In ITC you just have to have scouts to deal with armies that deep strike every one of their threats. Think obliterators, 30 bloodletter bombs, scions, tau, hell tyranid have some deep strike tricks. Bring scouts or just lose.


Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but it's actually 1 hit, wound OR save per turn, not one of each =(


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/26 22:32:54


Post by: G00fySmiley


I am wondering how well this will do.

max out supreme command detachments with 3x captains on bikes.

fast, incredibly tough, and all characters so units are just able to shoot closest model. so plan accordingly to force fire to be separated.

I doubt it would take any big tournaments, but little local ones it might break the meta.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/26 22:59:22


Post by: Audustum


Beta rules says characters under 9W can't cover for each other. I expect that rule to be made concrete so sadly they would be able to shoot it whatever bike they want.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/26 23:06:42


Post by: Sherrypie


 G00fySmiley wrote:
I am wondering how well this will do.

max out supreme command detachments with 3x captains on bikes.

fast, incredibly tough, and all characters so units are just able to shoot closest model. so plan accordingly to force fire to be separated.

I doubt it would take any big tournaments, but little local ones it might break the meta.


... Except there are no restrictions at all who can be shot in that list, because they are all characters and thus you can shoot whatever you want. GW fixed the Character targeting for this specific reason, to slap down silly forced fire separation / assassin shields that mystically draw all the fire to themselves and could only be hit on a 6+.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/26 23:16:08


Post by: Amishprn86


Audustum wrote:
Beta rules says characters under 9W can't cover for each other. I expect that rule to be made concrete so sadly they would be able to shoot it whatever bike they want.


This

I keep thinking of doing 2x5 Scouts, with 3 Shield Captains and 6 Bikers with 9 Scout bikes as well, then the rest filler in a Flyer or 2.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/26 23:23:17


Post by: Wulfey


Syrex wrote:
Wulfey wrote:
Ordana wrote:
What do you even spend all those CP's on.

I don't see the point of a Battalion AND a Brigade.


3CP to get two relics. And 2CP per biker HQ to get victor of the blood games on all of them. It gives you 1 reroll hit, wound, and SAVE per TURN. This means you can reroll a save on every overwatch and every opponent turn. On models with 3++ and 2+ saves, that is a huge increase in durability and worth the 2 CP. Think about how many save rolls that is over the course of the game. And if you are watching the LVO stream, yes, if you play competitively and play imperium SCOUTS are mandatory. If you can't space out enemy deep strikes then you lose, period. And if you are bringing the mandatory 3 scout squads, why not take a battalion for more CP? In ITC you just have to have scouts to deal with armies that deep strike every one of their threats. Think obliterators, 30 bloodletter bombs, scions, tau, hell tyranid have some deep strike tricks. Bring scouts or just lose.


Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but it's actually 1 hit, wound OR save per turn, not one of each =(


The important part is the save. They already reroll all their shooting to hit (2+ with RR1s) and to hit in melee (2+ with RR1), and they reroll wounds on the charge. The point is the save roll and optionally 1 wound roll if you are attacking last and won't take any more saves.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/27 00:07:28


Post by: WindstormSCR


So i gave the 'allarus bomb' a try in proxy this afternoon. the results were quite franky disgusting, and utterly butchered the alaitoc/DR power list I was testing against.

for those who don't want to dig through the thread, the "allarus bomb" can be summarized:

[out of sequence charge (stooping dive strat) > summon your buddy (praetorian plate vexilus praetor) > assuming vexilla survives, spend 3 CP to deepstrike some allarus terminators within 6″ of vexilla (who’s technically been on the board all of your turn) and more than 3″ from the enemy]

Spoiler:

my list: http://puu.sh/z9XGY/feac54be4b.png

I got turn 1, inflicted some casualties but not too many thanks to his stacked hit penalties, moving up two squads to cover the advance of the shield captain on bike as far as they could.

His turn one he inflicted some casualties, but this was just infantry squads and the cylops dying since everything that wasn't a character was out of LoS. The fulmenaris aggressor relic vexilla is absolutely worth it here to prevent morale losses, better than the 5++ imo. End of his charge phase stooping dive is triggered, combined with the re-roll charges gets me an easy 9" into some of his reapers. Vexilus joins him, and they kill the two units handily.

My turn 2, Allarus terminators arrive, and get forewarned, by a DR squad down to 7 from basilisk fire. one takes 3 wounds but otherwise survives, and the grenade launcher stratagem sees 3 different spiritseers dead in one round of terminator shooting. the rest of the guard section continues it's advance up the table, now fully controlling half the table and four objectives. Charge/fight phase sees another two units of 5 reapers dead, and the 10-block slaughtered wholesale by the allarus with the wounded terminator dying to overwatch. two units of rangers died to priest-buffed guardsmen mauling them.

His turn 2, his shining spears arrived by webway gate, but with spiritseers dead could not quicken into a lance shot. the remaining dark reapers (2 units) and both spears unloaded into the allarus and dropped one more to 1w. He succeeded on the charge with both spear units into the allarus, who took one more casualty before sweeping both units from the board in a slaughter.

He then conceded.


I think the strength of this is that you can bypass an entire round of shooting against your hammer unit, allowing you to get the bulk of the work done without reprisal, and is very much tournament grade


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/27 00:13:31


Post by: Amishprn86


I still dont think it will work in a Comp style game. Especially against someone that knows what you are doing.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/27 00:24:17


Post by: X078


The Allarus bomb is quite nice though the Allarus and Trajan needs to be FAQ'd for more W higher T etc. Currently they are a bit overcosted vs their stats, in my view.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/27 00:58:05


Post by: Fenris-77


 Amishprn86 wrote:
I still dont think it will work in a Comp style game. Especially against someone that knows what you are doing.
There's a point at which even if you know what a guy is doing there may not be much you can do about it. The key model in the bomb is the guy with the teleport-a-friend ability. So yeah, the opponent knows where he is, but that model is fast, so there's only so much you can do. Even if you don;t provide that guy with the opportunity to counter charge at the top of turn two, he could still be all over you that round anyway. I think it could be made to work in a pretty competitive environment. I'll be eager to hear about this idea getting stress tested against some top flight opponents.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/27 01:42:56


Post by: WindstormSCR


 Fenris-77 wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
I still dont think it will work in a Comp style game. Especially against someone that knows what you are doing.
There's a point at which even if you know what a guy is doing there may not be much you can do about it. The key model in the bomb is the guy with the teleport-a-friend ability. So yeah, the opponent knows where he is, but that model is fast, so there's only so much you can do. Even if you don;t provide that guy with the opportunity to counter charge at the top of turn two, he could still be all over you that round anyway. I think it could be made to work in a pretty competitive environment. I'll be eager to hear about this idea getting stress tested against some top flight opponents.


actually the Vexilus praetor can use any imperium character as the target, the jetbike captain is just the best target since he has the option to make an out of sequence charge that then immeadiately triggers the conditions for the praetorian plate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For those of you that use battlescribe, file is done and being pushed for release, will be available once the data site picks it up


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/27 04:47:36


Post by: Spartacus


 WindstormSCR wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For those of you that use battlescribe, file is done and being pushed for release, will be available once the data site picks it up


Thats very fast, thanks for your contribution.

Glad to hear Allarus Custodes can get some work done with the DS stratagem.

RE: Your list, why the Ministorum priests?


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/27 04:56:20


Post by: BrianDavion


Spartacus wrote:
 WindstormSCR wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For those of you that use battlescribe, file is done and being pushed for release, will be available once the data site picks it up


Thats very fast, thanks for your contribution.

Glad to hear Allarus Custodes can get some work done with the DS stratagem.

RE: Your list, why the Ministorum priests?


they add +1 to attack rolls for AM troops. maybe he thought it was an Imperium wide buff?


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/27 05:02:45


Post by: Amishprn86


 WindstormSCR wrote:
 Fenris-77 wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
I still dont think it will work in a Comp style game. Especially against someone that knows what you are doing.
There's a point at which even if you know what a guy is doing there may not be much you can do about it. The key model in the bomb is the guy with the teleport-a-friend ability. So yeah, the opponent knows where he is, but that model is fast, so there's only so much you can do. Even if you don;t provide that guy with the opportunity to counter charge at the top of turn two, he could still be all over you that round anyway. I think it could be made to work in a pretty competitive environment. I'll be eager to hear about this idea getting stress tested against some top flight opponents.


actually the Vexilus praetor can use any imperium character as the target, the jetbike captain is just the best target since he has the option to make an out of sequence charge that then immeadiately triggers the conditions for the praetorian plate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For those of you that use battlescribe, file is done and being pushed for release, will be available once the data site picks it up


WOW thank you very much! Do we need to go get that 1 file or just update?


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/27 05:17:24


Post by: Audustum


 WindstormSCR wrote:
 Fenris-77 wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
I still dont think it will work in a Comp style game. Especially against someone that knows what you are doing.
There's a point at which even if you know what a guy is doing there may not be much you can do about it. The key model in the bomb is the guy with the teleport-a-friend ability. So yeah, the opponent knows where he is, but that model is fast, so there's only so much you can do. Even if you don;t provide that guy with the opportunity to counter charge at the top of turn two, he could still be all over you that round anyway. I think it could be made to work in a pretty competitive environment. I'll be eager to hear about this idea getting stress tested against some top flight opponents.


actually the Vexilus praetor can use any imperium character as the target, the jetbike captain is just the best target since he has the option to make an out of sequence charge that then immeadiately triggers the conditions for the praetorian plate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For those of you that use battlescribe, file is done and being pushed for release, will be available once the data site picks it up


Really fast! Thank you!


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/27 05:29:52


Post by: BrianDavion


so using battle scribe I've come up with a 2000 point list, not the best of one but it's one I'll be able to, mostly, deploy with my inital pre-order


HQs:

1 Trajan Valoris
1 Shield Captain with Guardian Spear

Troops.
3x3 squads of Custodes guard with Guardian spears

Elites:
1 squad of 3 Allarus Custodians, with guardian spears
2 Vexillus Praetors with Vexilla Magnifcia


Fast Attack:
1 Squad of Veretus Preators with Hurricane Bolters

Heavy Support:
1 Venerable Land Raider

I know the Land Raider is kinda expensive but I have one so I might as well use it for now. I might replace it with a pair of dreadnoughts and maybe be able to upgrade my termies to have axes as a result



Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/27 06:18:11


Post by: WindstormSCR


Amishprn86 wrote:

WOW thank you very much! Do we need to go get that 1 file or just update?


Audustum wrote:

Really fast! Thank you!


Normal update, sometimes takes a little bit to pick up. It was a slow week at work and there was just enough info in the prerelease stuff to flesh out a good framework.

A question of preference for custodes players: since relics can be changed pre-battle and are a bigger component in strategies than usual, do you prefer keeping the default wargear (non-relic vexillas and the grenade launcher for example) on the sheet even in cases where it would be replaced by a relic selection? Example hiding the Vexilla Defensor if the Fulminaris Aggressor is selected, or showing both.

Remember if you find bugs to use the reporting tool so I can fix them! (the stormshield one on CG is already fixed for next release)


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/27 07:22:48


Post by: BrianDavion


 WindstormSCR wrote:
Amishprn86 wrote:

WOW thank you very much! Do we need to go get that 1 file or just update?


Audustum wrote:

Really fast! Thank you!


Normal update, sometimes takes a little bit to pick up. It was a slow week at work and there was just enough info in the prerelease stuff to flesh out a good framework.

A question of preference for custodes players: since relics can be changed pre-battle and are a bigger component in strategies than usual, do you prefer keeping the default wargear (non-relic vexillas and the grenade launcher for example) on the sheet even in cases where it would be replaced by a relic selection? Example hiding the Vexilla Defensor if the Fulminaris Aggressor is selected, or showing both.

Remember if you find bugs to use the reporting tool so I can fix them! (the stormshield one on CG is already fixed for next release)


I think thats proably a good idea myself



Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/27 07:55:09


Post by: WindstormSCR


BrianDavion wrote:
so using battle scribe I've come up with a 2000 point list, not the best of one but it's one I'll be able to, mostly, deploy with my inital pre-order


HQs:

1 Trajan Valoris
1 Shield Captain with Guardian Spear

Troops.
3x3 squads of Custodes guard with Guardian spears

Elites:
1 squad of 3 Allarus Custodians, with guardian spears
2 Vexillus Praetors with Vexilla Magnifcia


Fast Attack:
1 Squad of Veretus Preators with Hurricane Bolters

Heavy Support:
1 Venerable Land Raider

I know the Land Raider is kinda expensive but I have one so I might as well use it for now. I might replace it with a pair of dreadnoughts and maybe be able to upgrade my termies to have axes as a result



list suffers from lack of ability to threaten T7 vehicles.

take axes where possible, spears on the regular CG with a shield or two for tanking.


my take on a pure custodes 2k:

Battalion
2x shield cap with castellan axes
3x CG with 2 spears 1 S&B each
Venerable Raider

Vanguard:
Biker Capt with Auric Aquilis and superior creation WLT
Allarus custodians with axes x5
Vexillus Praetor with axe
Allarus Vexilus with Praetorian Plate


gives you just enough CP for the extra relic and bomb if your opponent hands it to you, plenty of axes for AT work, close to melee and use spears to clean up the screens and other stuff.

ultimately pure custodes are a heavily melee list, and we may as well embrace that and kit appropriately.

personally I'd rather take two squads of custodian wardens over a venerable raider, but it's all the Ranged AT we've got until forgeworld decides to grace us with a datasheet for the Caladius


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/27 08:05:20


Post by: BrianDavion


yeah the land raider is also on the list by virtue of my having one and wanting to use it. on any other list I'd worry that such a big obvious tank by itself would get whittled down, but Custodes means pretty much EVERYTHING needs anti tank guns


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/27 09:03:27


Post by: DoomMouse


Wulfey wrote:
Ordana wrote:
What do you even spend all those CP's on.

I don't see the point of a Battalion AND a Brigade.


3CP to get two relics. And 2CP per biker HQ to get victor of the blood games on all of them. It gives you 1 reroll hit, wound, and SAVE per TURN. This means you can reroll a save on every overwatch and every opponent turn. On models with 3++ and 2+ saves, that is a huge increase in durability and worth the 2 CP. Think about how many save rolls that is over the course of the game. And if you are watching the LVO stream, yes, if you play competitively and play imperium SCOUTS are mandatory. If you can't space out enemy deep strikes then you lose, period. And if you are bringing the mandatory 3 scout squads, why not take a battalion for more CP? In ITC you just have to have scouts to deal with armies that deep strike every one of their threats. Think obliterators, 30 bloodletter bombs, scions, tau, hell tyranid have some deep strike tricks. Bring scouts or just lose.


I'd be interested in knowing what relics you were thinking of giving the jetbikes


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/27 09:27:55


Post by: X078


WindstormSCR wrote:
Spoiler:
 WindstormSCR wrote:
Amishprn86 wrote:

WOW thank you very much! Do we need to go get that 1 file or just update?


Audustum wrote:

Really fast! Thank you!


Normal update, sometimes takes a little bit to pick up. It was a slow week at work and there was just enough info in the prerelease stuff to flesh out a good framework.

A question of preference for custodes players: since relics can be changed pre-battle and are a bigger component in strategies than usual, do you prefer keeping the default wargear (non-relic vexillas and the grenade launcher for example) on the sheet even in cases where it would be replaced by a relic selection? Example hiding the Vexilla Defensor if the Fulminaris Aggressor is selected, or showing both.

Remember if you find bugs to use the reporting tool so I can fix them! (the stormshield one on CG is already fixed for next release)



Good work. I think hiding replaced wargear might be the way to go, like Eldar Witchblade/Spear option and such.

Another question, why does the Vexillus Praetor in Allarus Terminator have a non-removable Misericordia as default?


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/27 09:41:47


Post by: Crazyterran


X078 wrote:
WindstormSCR wrote:
Spoiler:
 WindstormSCR wrote:
Amishprn86 wrote:

WOW thank you very much! Do we need to go get that 1 file or just update?


Audustum wrote:

Really fast! Thank you!


Normal update, sometimes takes a little bit to pick up. It was a slow week at work and there was just enough info in the prerelease stuff to flesh out a good framework.

A question of preference for custodes players: since relics can be changed pre-battle and are a bigger component in strategies than usual, do you prefer keeping the default wargear (non-relic vexillas and the grenade launcher for example) on the sheet even in cases where it would be replaced by a relic selection? Example hiding the Vexilla Defensor if the Fulminaris Aggressor is selected, or showing both.

Remember if you find bugs to use the reporting tool so I can fix them! (the stormshield one on CG is already fixed for next release)



Good work. I think hiding replaced wargear might be the way to go, like Eldar Witchblade/Spear option and such.

Another question, why does the Vexillus Praetor in Allarus Terminator have a non-removable Misericordia as default?


I would assume because thats the only weapon he can get, since the axes and spears go in the other hand.

Tactics question: What standard would you give to a terminator Vexilia teleporting in with a termie captain and four dudes? I was thinking Magnifica, just to make it harder to hit them and make plasma blow up easier, but Imperialis is so tempting...


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/27 09:58:03


Post by: X078


 Crazyterran wrote:
X078 wrote:
WindstormSCR wrote:
Spoiler:
 WindstormSCR wrote:
Amishprn86 wrote:

WOW thank you very much! Do we need to go get that 1 file or just update?


Audustum wrote:

Really fast! Thank you!


Normal update, sometimes takes a little bit to pick up. It was a slow week at work and there was just enough info in the prerelease stuff to flesh out a good framework.

A question of preference for custodes players: since relics can be changed pre-battle and are a bigger component in strategies than usual, do you prefer keeping the default wargear (non-relic vexillas and the grenade launcher for example) on the sheet even in cases where it would be replaced by a relic selection? Example hiding the Vexilla Defensor if the Fulminaris Aggressor is selected, or showing both.

Remember if you find bugs to use the reporting tool so I can fix them! (the stormshield one on CG is already fixed for next release)



Good work. I think hiding replaced wargear might be the way to go, like Eldar Witchblade/Spear option and such.

Another question, why does the Vexillus Praetor in Allarus Terminator have a non-removable Misericordia as default?


I would assume because thats the only weapon he can get, since the axes and spears go in the other hand.

Tactics question: What standard would you give to a terminator Vexilia teleporting in with a termie captain and four dudes? I was thinking Magnifica, just to make it harder to hit them and make plasma blow up easier, but Imperialis is so tempting...


Just got the Codex and it's an error. Model may take a Misericordia so it is not default.

A: Imperialis for the tagging along with the Allarus would be my choice most of the times. But the -1 is also good. Depends on the rest of your army i guess.



Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/27 13:59:42


Post by: Mr. Funktastic


I would go for the Vexilla Magnifica to play a bit defensively just in case your guys don't make the 9 inch charge, they'll at least be a little more durable to enemy shooting with the -1 to hit. They're monsters in CC already so +1 A might be overkill unless you plan on charging them at a Baneblade or a Knight or something.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/27 22:16:42


Post by: Kdash


Mr. Funktastic wrote:
I would go for the Vexilla Magnifica to play a bit defensively just in case your guys don't make the 9 inch charge, they'll at least be a little more durable to enemy shooting with the -1 to hit. They're monsters in CC already so +1 A might be overkill unless you plan on charging them at a Baneblade or a Knight or something.


Starting to feel the same - especially when points are taken into account. 50 points for +1A feels excessive, when -1 to hit is only 30 points.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/27 23:59:59


Post by: Therion


I'm trying to compare the value of Custodes to what we have already, for Astra Militarum lists specifically.

There's a lot to like about the biker HQ, but there's a lot to like about many things.

3x Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Bike, in a Supreme Command for 480 points

vs

Celestine, 2 Geminae Superia, Culexus Assassin, 2 Eversor Assassins, in a Vanguard for 475 points.

Unless something seriously convinces me otherwise, I'm not seeing how the bikers would offer more for an AM list of any kind. I'm not saying the bikes are far off, but they're behind. Feel free to counterargue.





Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/28 00:26:43


Post by: Kdash


 Therion wrote:
I'm trying to compare the value of Custodes to what we have already, for Astra Militarum lists specifically.

There's a lot to like about the biker HQ, but there's a lot to like about many things.

3x Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Bike, in a Supreme Command for 480 points

vs

Celestine, 2 Geminae Superia, Culexus Assassin, 2 Eversor Assassins, in a Vanguard for 475 points.

Unless something seriously convinces me otherwise, I'm not seeing how the bikers would offer more for an AM list of any kind. I'm not saying the bikes are far off, but they're behind. Feel free to counterargue.





Well, depends what you use each for. If Celestine is just there for the invuln, the Culexus to stop smite and the Eversors to charge screens, then the 3 Captains will always be worth more in terms of damage output. But, on the flip side, the Captains only really supply damage.

When you also put the 2 sets against each other, the Eversors will die instantly, Culexus won't be able to do much other than lock 1 Captain in combat a few turns, and Celestine won't be able to take out 2 Captains... Maybe 1, but not 2 at once.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/28 00:34:13


Post by: Therion


Why would Celestine be somewhere just for the invuln? Her unit fights crazy well and is the definition of value city. Culexus adds a large amount of psychic defence, a speedbump and minor damage. Eversors add pressure and damage.

If you want to compare damage, do a comparison vs GEQ and MEQ on the charge. Let both groups shoot all their guns and then charge. I'd bet they're pretty close to each other. Certainly the Custodes wouldn't be worth a lot more despite the hurricanes naturally being awesome.

In a 'let's fight each other' the charging player would win. Food for thought is that the Assassins can deep strike, and Celestine has vastly longer reach than the Bikers, so who is more likely to get the jump in this 'let's fight each other' pepsi challenge?

That said, the 'let's fight each other' isn't in any way relevant. What's relevant is how the groups make an Astra Militarum army better. Then there's other options too, like adding Blood Angels to the AM force. Looks like many of the top lists at LVO have Death Companies doing some heavy lifting...





Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/28 01:11:36


Post by: WindstormSCR


I'd say if you're adding anything to guard, the relic vexillas for full and true morale immunity should top the list, from a buff perspective


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/28 01:50:40


Post by: Audustum


 Therion wrote:
Why would Celestine be somewhere just for the invuln? Her unit fights crazy well and is the definition of value city. Culexus adds a large amount of psychic defence, a speedbump and minor damage. Eversors add pressure and damage.

If you want to compare damage, do a comparison vs GEQ and MEQ on the charge. Let both groups shoot all their guns and then charge. I'd bet they're pretty close to each other. Certainly the Custodes wouldn't be worth a lot more despite the hurricanes naturally being awesome.

In a 'let's fight each other' the charging player would win. Food for thought is that the Assassins can deep strike, and Celestine has vastly longer reach than the Bikers, so who is more likely to get the jump in this 'let's fight each other' pepsi challenge?

That said, the 'let's fight each other' isn't in any way relevant. What's relevant is how the groups make an Astra Militarum army better. Then there's other options too, like adding Blood Angels to the AM force. Looks like many of the top lists at LVO have Death Companies doing some heavy lifting...





What. The vast majority of lists I pull are guard infantry, fire raptors, dark reapers and scouts. I've seen like one blood Angels guy near the top.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/28 04:40:53


Post by: BrianDavion


watched a game in my local store today custodes vs space marines, custodes won but the thudnerhammer/storm sheild equipped captain did a LOT of damage to em


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/28 06:39:11


Post by: Audustum


BrianDavion wrote:
watched a game in my local store today custodes vs space marines, custodes won but the thudnerhammer/storm sheild equipped captain did a LOT of damage to em


Just took a Custodes force against Raven Guard assault vets and a Guilliman parking lot (3 units of devastators, Cronus in predator, Fire Raptor). The Captain with the vets was similar. Did a lot of damage to one of my bike squads.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/28 09:25:55


Post by: Archeos


In my gamestore the meta now is 1500 points, and i really struggle to imagine an army of pure Custodes.

I would like to deploy a battalion, but with units of 5 or 3 guards?
Do you think it is a good idea to have a unit of 5 guards (sword and shield) to deepstrike in front of the enemy as a distraction?
Is it worth at 1,500 points to invest in melta weapons for the bike?
Which list do you recommend?

Thank amd sorry for the too many questions, but i'm kinda noob in 8th


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/28 09:56:51


Post by: BrianDavion


for a 1500 point Battlaion you'll proably need to go with squads of 3,



Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/28 13:02:25


Post by: Kdash


 Therion wrote:
Why would Celestine be somewhere just for the invuln? Her unit fights crazy well and is the definition of value city. Culexus adds a large amount of psychic defence, a speedbump and minor damage. Eversors add pressure and damage.

If you want to compare damage, do a comparison vs GEQ and MEQ on the charge. Let both groups shoot all their guns and then charge. I'd bet they're pretty close to each other. Certainly the Custodes wouldn't be worth a lot more despite the hurricanes naturally being awesome.

In a 'let's fight each other' the charging player would win. Food for thought is that the Assassins can deep strike, and Celestine has vastly longer reach than the Bikers, so who is more likely to get the jump in this 'let's fight each other' pepsi challenge?

That said, the 'let's fight each other' isn't in any way relevant. What's relevant is how the groups make an Astra Militarum army better. Then there's other options too, like adding Blood Angels to the AM force. Looks like many of the top lists at LVO have Death Companies doing some heavy lifting...





I disagree on who charges first wins. The Evesors won't do anything vs the Biker Captains, the Culexus also will struggle massively vs a t6 Biker. It might take 2 rounds of combat to kill the assassins, but, it'd take waaaay more for the assassins to win.

Celestine, on the charge, will likely do 3-4 wounds (including 2 Gemini) to a Bike Captain. In reverse, a bike captain will deal 4-5 wounds to the squad on the charge.

Add in shooting before the charge - and thats another 1-2 wounds in favour of the Captain and only 0.4 more for Celestine. Next turn, Celestine should win the fight due to a Gemini coming back alive, but, if it's the Custodes turn, there is a reasonable expectation that the Captain could finish the fight.

This of course, isn't including the fact that the Captain can get a 3++. Would be close, but, the moment Celestine is facing more than 1 Captain, she'll likely get taken down very quickly.



Vs GEQ - best case scenario which includes shooting first.

Captain will kill 9 GEQ.

Celestine + 2 Gemini will kill 7 GEQ

Vs MEQ
Captain will kill 4 MEQ
Cesltine + 2 Gemini will kill 5 MEQ

So, Celestine will just win vs MEQ units, but the Captain will win vs GEQ - not much difference really.

In total, only 5 points difference between the two groups, so in a <500 point game, the Captains for me, would be worth more - but definitely down to preference at this point.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/28 13:18:51


Post by: Crazyterran


In a 500 point game three Bike Captains will be pretty hard to beat. Especially if you have the Relic Bike. Heck, could make two 3++ bikers if you are so inclined.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/28 13:44:29


Post by: Raulengrin


The captains can also deny Slay the Warlord, which is kind of a big deal. Your original warlord doesn't even have to be Custodes - they can 'steal' it from literally any imperial warlord.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/28 13:46:58


Post by: Amishprn86


Raulengrin wrote:
The captains can also deny Slay the Warlord, which is kind of a big deal. Your original warlord doesn't even have to be Custodes - they can 'steal' it from literally any imperial warlord.


Yeah.... players that are going to play Celestine (like me) with Custodes and calls out her to be the WL. Then has 3 Shield Captains on bikes running around....... lol


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/28 16:08:36


Post by: Audustum


 Crazyterran wrote:
In a 500 point game three Bike Captains will be pretty hard to beat. Especially if you have the Relic Bike. Heck, could make two 3++ bikers if you are so inclined.


3 bike captains is 510 minimum I think so it goes over.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/28 16:09:17


Post by: JNAProductions


Audustum wrote:
 Crazyterran wrote:
In a 500 point game three Bike Captains will be pretty hard to beat. Especially if you have the Relic Bike. Heck, could make two 3++ bikers if you are so inclined.


3 bike captains is 510 minimum I think so it goes over.


They're 160 a pop, with hurricane bolters. So that's just wrong.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/28 16:24:01


Post by: X078


I'm not really getting all lists that goes for Captain bikers only. Yes they are good, probably the best HQ choice but not spammed alone. It's T'au Commander spam but without the drones, which sucks. Especially since the character rules change.

A few Captains are good but they will be even better working with units of Vertus Praetors in my view. To each his own i guess.



Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/28 17:04:41


Post by: Kdash


X078 wrote:
I'm not really getting all lists that goes for Captain bikers only. Yes they are good, probably the best HQ choice but not spammed alone. It's T'au Commander spam but without the drones, which sucks. Especially since the character rules change.

A few Captains are good but they will be even better working with units of Vertus Praetors in my view. To each his own i guess.



I agree, that just spamming them will likely not be the best, but, 3 Captains is 1 Supreme Command detachment and leaves a lot of points spare for the rest of your army. Personally, i think i'm going to take a Supreme Command detachment and a Vanguard Detachment (currently costing around 1224 points) which will give me a few options and scary units/models and a big chunk of points for general stuff.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/28 17:20:51


Post by: Audustum


 JNAProductions wrote:
Audustum wrote:
 Crazyterran wrote:
In a 500 point game three Bike Captains will be pretty hard to beat. Especially if you have the Relic Bike. Heck, could make two 3++ bikers if you are so inclined.


3 bike captains is 510 minimum I think so it goes over.


They're 160 a pop, with hurricane bolters. So that's just wrong.


Well, not as much as you seem to indicate. I forgot the Hurricanes are included in the cost (170 X 3 = 510)


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/28 19:52:17


Post by: Mandragola


Here’s my idea for a 2k list that I could conceivably build.

Battalion

Shield Captain with Axe 124

Shield Captain on Bike 160

5 Guards with spears 260

5 Guards with spears 260

5 Guards with spears 260

5 Bikers 450

Spearhead

Celestine 250

5 Retributors with heavy bolters 85

5 Retributors with heavy bolters 85

IG Mortar Squad 33

IG Mortar Squad 33

Someone pointed out to me how good retributors are at clearing away screens. They fire at the beginning of the movement phase, so you’re free to move other units into the gap they clear. So I’d be able to use Celestine to get both units to fire if I wanted.

The Mortar squads don’t get a regimental tactic, but that’s no big real really. Their job is to hold objectives that the Custodes will leave behind and pop away at enemy scoring units.

Meanhwhile Celestine and the bikers will be racing forward, serving as a sort of very shiny distraction Carnifex, and my normal Custodes guys will plod across the board. I imagine that the real damage will be done when my guards eventually turn up and get involved.

I’ve tried to avoid going crazy on characters, though one or two more might be handy. I’m not sure the guards are all that great, but they and the special event FW Captain with axe are the only models I have, so if I make this army I’ll be using them. My theory is that they are a great bargain for 52 ppm.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/28 20:06:29


Post by: Amishprn86


As a Sob player, you need to practice with Celestine, she is MORE than a distraction, she can eliminate a good 400+ points easily.

When she dies the 1st time on a 2+ she come back, blah blah easy, but you need to make sure either (depending on the situation) 1 Gemini is alive or neither. This will make it so She either comes backs and doesnt take wounds again and is able to gain a Gemini back at the start of your turn, or you place her in a safe area, via DSing.

Once that happens now it gets hard (basically you need to know the power output that can kill er) you can use an AoF to "res" her or a Gemini, yes you wont get to shoot or melee twice, but rezing either Her to or the Gemini, THEN use "her" special AoF to heal D3 wounds.

Doing this will make her live forever, they literally need to kill her full unit off completely after she comes back.

And if she is in combat doing this, she is 6 attacks at S7 with ap and multi damage. She wrecks!

I've won games b.c i put her in the back line and just kill unit after unit, staying alive. When you have 6 Dominion squads right in front of you, killing her compare to 6 Open top Rhinos with mass shooting? its a hard choice.

You wont have Dominions you'll have Custodes.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/28 20:18:56


Post by: Mandragola


Oh sure, I’m well aware of what Celestine is like. I expect the bikes will get into combat too most of the time. Shooting 20 T5 wounds with 2+ saves away is challenging for most armies.

The point is, that lot are there to tie people up and cause a nuisance, giving the guards time to come along and deliver the coup de grace.

I’ve got Celestine. What I haven’t got is 8 retributors with heavy bolters - who appear to be extremely pricey! I might see if any kind of conversion is possible, such as giving the spare heavy bolters I have from the 30k mkiii or mkiv guys to normal sisters. I’ve got quite a few of those.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/28 20:45:42


Post by: Audustum


 Amishprn86 wrote:
As a Sob player, you need to practice with Celestine, she is MORE than a distraction, she can eliminate a good 400+ points easily.

When she dies the 1st time on a 2+ she come back, blah blah easy, but you need to make sure either (depending on the situation) 1 Gemini is alive or neither. This will make it so She either comes backs and doesnt take wounds again and is able to gain a Gemini back at the start of your turn, or you place her in a safe area, via DSing.

Once that happens now it gets hard (basically you need to know the power output that can kill er) you can use an AoF to "res" her or a Gemini, yes you wont get to shoot or melee twice, but rezing either Her to or the Gemini, THEN use "her" special AoF to heal D3 wounds.

Doing this will make her live forever, they literally need to kill her full unit off completely after she comes back.

And if she is in combat doing this, she is 6 attacks at S7 with ap and multi damage. She wrecks!

I've won games b.c i put her in the back line and just kill unit after unit, staying alive. When you have 6 Dominion squads right in front of you, killing her compare to 6 Open top Rhinos with mass shooting? its a hard choice.

You wont have Dominions you'll have Custodes.


Wait, how does Celestine get two AoF in a mixed detachment? Did I misread something in the rules or in your post?


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/28 21:04:35


Post by: Kdash


Audustum wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
As a Sob player, you need to practice with Celestine, she is MORE than a distraction, she can eliminate a good 400+ points easily.

When she dies the 1st time on a 2+ she come back, blah blah easy, but you need to make sure either (depending on the situation) 1 Gemini is alive or neither. This will make it so She either comes backs and doesnt take wounds again and is able to gain a Gemini back at the start of your turn, or you place her in a safe area, via DSing.

Once that happens now it gets hard (basically you need to know the power output that can kill er) you can use an AoF to "res" her or a Gemini, yes you wont get to shoot or melee twice, but rezing either Her to or the Gemini, THEN use "her" special AoF to heal D3 wounds.

Doing this will make her live forever, they literally need to kill her full unit off completely after she comes back.

And if she is in combat doing this, she is 6 attacks at S7 with ap and multi damage. She wrecks!

I've won games b.c i put her in the back line and just kill unit after unit, staying alive. When you have 6 Dominion squads right in front of you, killing her compare to 6 Open top Rhinos with mass shooting? its a hard choice.

You wont have Dominions you'll have Custodes.



Wait, how does Celestine get two AoF in a mixed detachment? Did I misread something in the rules or in your post?


Act of faith is an ability rather than a detachment bonus (for now at least). Celestine has an ability that gives her an extra act of faith


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/28 22:03:47


Post by: Audustum


Kdash wrote:
Audustum wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
As a Sob player, you need to practice with Celestine, she is MORE than a distraction, she can eliminate a good 400+ points easily.

When she dies the 1st time on a 2+ she come back, blah blah easy, but you need to make sure either (depending on the situation) 1 Gemini is alive or neither. This will make it so She either comes backs and doesnt take wounds again and is able to gain a Gemini back at the start of your turn, or you place her in a safe area, via DSing.

Once that happens now it gets hard (basically you need to know the power output that can kill er) you can use an AoF to "res" her or a Gemini, yes you wont get to shoot or melee twice, but rezing either Her to or the Gemini, THEN use "her" special AoF to heal D3 wounds.

Doing this will make her live forever, they literally need to kill her full unit off completely after she comes back.

And if she is in combat doing this, she is 6 attacks at S7 with ap and multi damage. She wrecks!

I've won games b.c i put her in the back line and just kill unit after unit, staying alive. When you have 6 Dominion squads right in front of you, killing her compare to 6 Open top Rhinos with mass shooting? its a hard choice.

You wont have Dominions you'll have Custodes.



Wait, how does Celestine get two AoF in a mixed detachment? Did I misread something in the rules or in your post?


Act of faith is an ability rather than a detachment bonus (for now at least). Celestine has an ability that gives her an extra act of faith


I must have read the rules wrong. I thought she innately had 0 and that ability just raised her to 1!


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/28 22:56:30


Post by: Amishprn86


You get the Army wide one that is on a 2+, then she has her own for free.

There are also ways to get insane amounts of AOF and 1 unit can use them all if you play them in only an IG army (not all the Adeptus Ministorum are Order). There are many things you can do with AoF that unless you read the rules many times wont see at first.

Tho when the codex comes out all that will be stopped.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/28 23:00:39


Post by: Audustum


 Amishprn86 wrote:
You get the Army wide one that is on a 2+, then she has her own for free.


Yeah, so I cracked open an Index and actually read it carefully. Doesn't it say, however, that "Some abilities may allow you to use more than one Act of Faith in the same turn, when this is the case, a different unit must be chosen to perform each Act of Faith". So that would prevent Celestine from using both on herself, right? Cause when I read your first description it sounded like you were using two on her in the same turn.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/28 23:12:03


Post by: JNAProductions


Audustum wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
You get the Army wide one that is on a 2+, then she has her own for free.


Yeah, so I cracked open an Index and actually read it carefully. Doesn't it say, however, that "Some abilities may allow you to use more than one Act of Faith in the same turn, when this is the case, a different unit must be chosen to perform each Act of Faith". So that would prevent Celestine from using both on herself, right? Cause when I read your first description it sounded like you were using two on her in the same turn.


No, she performs an act of faith WITH another unit. So on a 2+ you get one unit to shoot, and then Celestine does her act of faith WITH another one.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/28 23:14:20


Post by: Audustum


 JNAProductions wrote:
Audustum wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
You get the Army wide one that is on a 2+, then she has her own for free.


Yeah, so I cracked open an Index and actually read it carefully. Doesn't it say, however, that "Some abilities may allow you to use more than one Act of Faith in the same turn, when this is the case, a different unit must be chosen to perform each Act of Faith". So that would prevent Celestine from using both on herself, right? Cause when I read your first description it sounded like you were using two on her in the same turn.


No, she performs an act of faith WITH another unit. So on a 2+ you get one unit to shoot, and then Celestine does her act of faith WITH another one.


That's more what I thought. I was confused by these quotes from Amish:


There are also ways to get insane amounts of AOF and 1 unit can use them all



Once that happens now it gets hard (basically you need to know the power output that can kill er) you can use an AoF to "res" her or a Gemini, yes you wont get to shoot or melee twice, but rezing either Her to or the Gemini, THEN use "her" special AoF to heal D3 wounds.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/28 23:15:40


Post by: Amishprn86


She can heal her Gemini, not an Act of faith, i type it wrong that my fualt, Healing tears? I cant remember the name of it. I was in a hurry and might have mixed up a couple words.

English is really hard for me.

I try to word it easier

You kill off Gemini, Res Gemini with ability, if you get Celestine dead AoF her to res her, then she res's Gemini due to Sequencing rules with her ability, then she AoF another unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


There are also ways to get insane amounts of AOF and 1 unit can use them all



This is true, but i dont want to get into that. It completely abusing RAW and it is 100% not RAI, kinda like Pyrovores for Nids in 6/7th how it hits all units on the table.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/28 23:45:24


Post by: THUNDERHAMMER


Whats the "best for your points" way to ally in custodes without bikes battalion or vanguard?


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/28 23:53:52


Post by: Mandragola


 THUNDERHAMMER wrote:
Whats the "best for your points" way to ally in custodes without bikes battalion or vanguard?
It’s difficult to ally in a battalion of Custodes, because it costs a lot. Realistically, 3x3 guards and a couple of HQs usually won’t be all that useful, so I wouldn’t recommend that.

A vanguard might work better. You could bring a vexilla with the fearless bubble if you played IG, then maybe have some termies to deep strike and a contemptor or something. Maybe a bike captain for your HQ, but one on foot could also be fine.

One weird thing is that you can give a Vexilla guy a spear or axe, because the warden set comes with a left handed spear/axe. But a terminator Vexilla can only have a misericordia. It’s therefore quite hard to argue for a termie vexilla - except to pull schenanigans with the praetorian plate. A normal vexilla with an axe is actually quite a badass character for his price.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/29 01:49:03


Post by: Cephalobeard


I'm not convinced by any of the Vexilla/Praetoriam bomb strats yet. Seems sketch.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/29 01:59:05


Post by: Mr. Funktastic


Me neither, I'd have to see it in action to really be convinced. I want to believe there is a reliable way to use the Vexilla Teleport but I guess that'll take time before the combo is discovered. In the meantime regular deep strike will have to do I suppose.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/29 04:01:56


Post by: Audustum


 Cephalobeard wrote:
I'm not convinced by any of the Vexilla/Praetoriam bomb strats yet. Seems sketch.


Yeah, too much work for too little payoff.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/29 04:35:51


Post by: THUNDERHAMMER


Mandragola wrote:
 THUNDERHAMMER wrote:
Whats the "best for your points" way to ally in custodes without bikes battalion or vanguard?
It’s difficult to ally in a battalion of Custodes, because it costs a lot. Realistically, 3x3 guards and a couple of HQs usually won’t be all that useful, so I wouldn’t recommend that.

A vanguard might work better. You could bring a vexilla with the fearless bubble if you played IG, then maybe have some termies to deep strike and a contemptor or something. Maybe a bike captain for your HQ, but one on foot could also be fine.

One weird thing is that you can give a Vexilla guy a spear or axe, because the warden set comes with a left handed spear/axe. But a terminator Vexilla can only have a misericordia. It’s therefore quite hard to argue for a termie vexilla - except to pull schenanigans with the praetorian plate. A normal vexilla with an axe is actually quite a badass character for his price.


terminators are fine but wardens really caught my eye, I know they arent the best but damn if they look the best

Axe Vexilla is the dream! Im magnetizing my custodian guard squad as we speak its been fairly easy all things considered


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/29 06:01:26


Post by: Oberron


So has anyone done a number crunch on the different units yet? I don't mean their point values but their average damage, and their average survive-ability and compair to other units.

I'm highly interested in guards vs wardens mostly.


haven't gotten my book yet (should be getting it tomorrow or so) but if i haven't missed anyone else posting such findings I'll get to it when i can.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/29 06:54:36


Post by: Audustum


Oberron wrote:
So has anyone done a number crunch on the different units yet? I don't mean their point values but their average damage, and their average survive-ability and compair to other units.

I'm highly interested in guards vs wardens mostly.


haven't gotten my book yet (should be getting it tomorrow or so) but if i haven't missed anyone else posting such findings I'll get to it when i can.


I mean, it's not numbers but Guard Vs. Wardens can be done at a glance I think. Guards without Storm Shields are just Wardens without the FNP. So Guards are slightly less survivable with spears, slightly more survivable with Storm Shields since going 4++ to 3++ is better than 4++ and 6+ chance to ignore each point of damage.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/29 07:40:33


Post by: BrianDavion


Audustum wrote:
Oberron wrote:
So has anyone done a number crunch on the different units yet? I don't mean their point values but their average damage, and their average survive-ability and compair to other units.

I'm highly interested in guards vs wardens mostly.


haven't gotten my book yet (should be getting it tomorrow or so) but if i haven't missed anyone else posting such findings I'll get to it when i can.


I mean, it's not numbers but Guard Vs. Wardens can be done at a glance I think. Guards without Storm Shields are just Wardens without the FNP. So Guards are slightly less survivable with spears, slightly more survivable with Storm Shields since going 4++ to 3++ is better than 4++ and 6+ chance to ignore each point of damage.


yeah but there is also the points differance. guard being cheaper by 9 PPM. so the question is, is it more point efficant to take guards or wardens?

I'm of the opinion that it's largely moot, as you'll be taking eaither to pad out your roster for detachments, and the 3+ CP of a battalion outweighs in most cases the tiny advantage of a 6+ FNP on the wardens.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/29 08:47:54


Post by: Kdash


Audustum wrote:
 Cephalobeard wrote:
I'm not convinced by any of the Vexilla/Praetoriam bomb strats yet. Seems sketch.


Yeah, too much work for too little payoff.


I wouldn’t say “too much work”, rather, “requires a certain situation and enemy army style”.

If you’re playing a gun line, then it’s not going to be worth it. If you’re playing a 1st turn assault army, there is a very high possibility of the strategy working.

The only issue is, you’re only going to want to do this when you’re backed up by a Guard Brigade – simply because you’re likely looking at a 7-9 CP cost to pull it off the way you want.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/29 09:11:09


Post by: Spartacus


Anyone seen a Custodes codex battle report anywhere yet? I've checked most of the usual content producers, who usually scramble to be the first to get the reviews and reports out, but nothing yet. Seems strange considering all the hype around the release from GW.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/29 09:13:37


Post by: Kdash


Spartacus wrote:
Anyone seen a Custodes codex battle report anywhere yet? I've checked most of the usual content producers, who usually scramble to be the first to get the reviews and reports out, but nothing yet. Seems strange considering all the hype around the release from GW.


Tabletop tactics did a game containing 3 Biker Captains and Ultramarines vs the new Thousand Sons, but that was it. I think a lot more are waiting for the kits to go on sale/get them built and painted.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/29 09:17:16


Post by: BrianDavion


Kdash wrote:
Spartacus wrote:
Anyone seen a Custodes codex battle report anywhere yet? I've checked most of the usual content producers, who usually scramble to be the first to get the reviews and reports out, but nothing yet. Seems strange considering all the hype around the release from GW.


Tabletop tactics did a game containing 3 Biker Captains and Ultramarines vs the new Thousand Sons, but that was it. I think a lot more are waiting for the kits to go on sale/get them built and painted.


I've seen a few battle videos for them on BOLS as well. that said almost ALL field the custodes as mixed forces of "we've got X.. AND SOME CUSTODES"


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/29 10:05:18


Post by: stratigo


Spartacus wrote:
Anyone seen a Custodes codex battle report anywhere yet? I've checked most of the usual content producers, who usually scramble to be the first to get the reviews and reports out, but nothing yet. Seems strange considering all the hype around the release from GW.


Most armies were already ready, Custodes is mostly new kits, so they're still assembling and painting them


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/29 11:30:20


Post by: Ordana


 Cephalobeard wrote:
I'm not convinced by any of the Vexilla/Praetoriam bomb strats yet. Seems sketch.

Im not convinced by the combo strats either but I can certainly see the use out of the Terminator Vexilla deepstriking in to provide -1 to hit to a bunch of bikes/captains.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/29 12:31:50


Post by: ritualnet


 JNAProductions wrote:
Audustum wrote:
 Crazyterran wrote:
In a 500 point game three Bike Captains will be pretty hard to beat. Especially if you have the Relic Bike. Heck, could make two 3++ bikers if you are so inclined.


3 bike captains is 510 minimum I think so it goes over.


They're 160 a pop, with hurricane bolters. So that's just wrong.


Would 3 bike captains be viable for a 500pt starting escalation force?


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/29 12:38:29


Post by: Amishprn86


Depends, are you adding more bikes to it later? If your adding 3 bikers later then IMO its better to just have a Patrol with Shield on bike and 3 Bikers. This way you have a 4th bike and can use the character rule (if your using Beta rules those 3 characters on bikes dont block each other)


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/29 12:58:37


Post by: ritualnet


 Amishprn86 wrote:
Depends, are you adding more bikes to it later? If your adding 3 bikers later then IMO its better to just have a Patrol with Shield on bike and 3 Bikers. This way you have a 4th bike and can use the character rule (if your using Beta rules those 3 characters on bikes dont block each other)


Depends, I'm not one to mix and match unless they brought out Inquisition soon, so I'd probably go pure custodes, and I've always liked jetbikes since the metal tech-marine one back in the day.. It is the idea of minimizing the amount of painting so that I can play a game, rather than never finish the painting as there's so many to do, get bored and give up.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/29 14:22:58


Post by: Amishprn86


? I didnt say anything about mix and matching, i was talking about pure custodes.

Are you planing on taking a unit of Bikes for your escalation. You can start out with 1 shield captain on bike and 3 more bikes. If you only take shield captains thats only 3 bikes, the other way is 4 bikes


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/29 14:32:22


Post by: obsidiankatana


What are the thoughts on Trajann? Worth the cost of two shield captains? Is the Moment Shackle worth it over shuffling detachments for extra CPs? Here's my current layout for a not-cutthroat competitive, but still decent (imo) 2k list;

HQ:
Trajann
Bike Shield-Captain (Warlord, Radiant Mantle, Auric Aquilas)

Troops:
3x 3 man spear squads

Elite:
5x Allarus with axes
1x Terminator Vexilus Praetor (-1 hit banner)

Fast Attack:
2x 3 man bike squads


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/29 16:21:22


Post by: Kzraahk


I'm thinking of skipping Guards entirely and going full Wardens


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/29 16:23:22


Post by: Audustum


Kzraahk wrote:
I'm thinking of skipping Guards entirely and going full Wardens


I'm thinking it's not worth it. Wardens are a little more expensive (though axes are nice), but the big reason is because 3 Guard give you battalion access. 3 Wardens are just a vanguard.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/29 16:45:58


Post by: Mandragola


Audustum wrote:
Kzraahk wrote:
I'm thinking of skipping Guards entirely and going full Wardens


I'm thinking it's not worth it. Wardens are a little more expensive (though axes are nice), but the big reason is because 3 Guard give you battalion access. 3 Wardens are just a vanguard.

True, but you only need 1 HQ for a vanguard. Two boxes of Wardens can make a shield captain and 3x3 wardens.

I think Wardens are very similar to guards on a point by point basis. They are weak against a few things though - notably plasma where their 6++ isn't likely to help (it would have to stop 2 wounds out of 4). 4-wound bikers and termies have the same issue with plasma ignoring their added toughness of course. There are a few 3-damage weapons, which bikes and termies are effectively twice as tough against, but plasma is far more common.

Wardens are probably the best unit to put in a land raider. If we get the coronus then 5 wardens and a captain (or even Trajan) will be great in that. Or you could have 2x3 units and split them to chase after seperate things.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/29 17:05:37


Post by: Kzraahk


I'll have to test the army through and through, but save for the extra 2CP, I think the fnp6+ and access to axes makes a difference. You can always add the cheapest Guard Batallion for extra CP and a bit more bodies


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/29 17:12:13


Post by: Mr. Funktastic


I think Valoris might be worth it if you're regularly using 2-3 CP stratagems and he's no slouch offensively or defensively either. Deep strike him with Allarus and you have a nice kill team that'll be tough to remove from your opponent's backfield. Of course, you'll have to play test with him to really gauge how many stratagems you're using realistically and then decide for yourself if the extra CP is worth it.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/29 17:58:51


Post by: Cephalobeard


Mr. Funktastic wrote:
I think Valoris might be worth it if you're regularly using 2-3 CP stratagems and he's no slouch offensively or defensively either. Deep strike him with Allarus and you have a nice kill team that'll be tough to remove from your opponent's backfield. Of course, you'll have to play test with him to really gauge how many stratagems you're using realistically and then decide for yourself if the extra CP is worth it.


You can get an entire Guard Batallion for less than Valoris. Not really worth it, unfortunately.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/29 18:07:36


Post by: Mandragola


 Cephalobeard wrote:
Mr. Funktastic wrote:
I think Valoris might be worth it if you're regularly using 2-3 CP stratagems and he's no slouch offensively or defensively either. Deep strike him with Allarus and you have a nice kill team that'll be tough to remove from your opponent's backfield. Of course, you'll have to play test with him to really gauge how many stratagems you're using realistically and then decide for yourself if the extra CP is worth it.


You can get an entire Guard Batallion for less than Valoris. Not really worth it, unfortunately.

Not for the CP alone, I agree. But maybe for the effect he has in combat as well.

Personally I'm not a fan, but it's tricky to work out the value of a character who brings a lot of different things to the table. For me, he's a lot like a normal captain with axe and there's no compelling reason to pay double the price for him. I think he's probably worth no more than 200 points - and nowhere near 250.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/29 18:08:43


Post by: meleti


I think I need an intervention. I'm seriously contemplating a AM Brigade + 8 jetbike Captains list. 13 CP, and the only units my opponent can really alpha strike are some mortar squads since half the army are characters.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/29 18:18:47


Post by: Wulfey


meleti wrote:
I think I need an intervention. I'm seriously contemplating a AM Brigade + 8 jetbike Captains list. 13 CP, and the only units my opponent can really alpha strike are some mortar squads since half the army are characters.


Yes. Yes this. If any guardsmen survive the first turn, MOVE MOVE MOVE them up the board to absorb bullets for another turn. I think a scouts/celestine battalion variant would be a little more optimal, but mass HQ bikers with heaps of victors of the blood games is going to be fun.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/29 18:26:31


Post by: Mr. Funktastic


 Cephalobeard wrote:
Mr. Funktastic wrote:
I think Valoris might be worth it if you're regularly using 2-3 CP stratagems and he's no slouch offensively or defensively either. Deep strike him with Allarus and you have a nice kill team that'll be tough to remove from your opponent's backfield. Of course, you'll have to play test with him to really gauge how many stratagems you're using realistically and then decide for yourself if the extra CP is worth it.


You can get an entire Guard Batallion for less than Valoris. Not really worth it, unfortunately.


If you're planning on allying anyway, then yeah I would rather have a SC than Valoris. If you want to play a pure Custodes army then I think he's a solid choice given the options. He's not an auto-include by any means but he can cripple or outright kill almost anything in CC and recovering CP is invaluable given the number of great strategems we have.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/29 18:59:45


Post by: obsidiankatana


Mr. Funktastic wrote:
 Cephalobeard wrote:
Mr. Funktastic wrote:
I think Valoris might be worth it if you're regularly using 2-3 CP stratagems and he's no slouch offensively or defensively either. Deep strike him with Allarus and you have a nice kill team that'll be tough to remove from your opponent's backfield. Of course, you'll have to play test with him to really gauge how many stratagems you're using realistically and then decide for yourself if the extra CP is worth it.


You can get an entire Guard Batallion for less than Valoris. Not really worth it, unfortunately.


If you're planning on allying anyway, then yeah I would rather have a SC than Valoris. If you want to play a pure Custodes army then I think he's a solid choice given the options. He's not an auto-include by any means but he can cripple or outright kill almost anything in CC and recovering CP is invaluable given the number of great strategems we have.


This is more the perspective I'm at. Pure Custodes, he costs enough to be the difference between having battalion + outrider or vanguard, or battalion and him. So 7CP or 6 w/ D3 return (or the other Moment Shackle options if you don't need them). Seems decent. And he's the only source of re-rolling wounds to Custodes.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/29 19:22:26


Post by: bananathug


supreme command
3x shield bike captains
1x celestine
culexes


Blood angel batallion
sang preist
DC captian
sanguinor

3x CCW scouts

2x DC

IG bat
2x scion capts
1x psycher

5x infantry (use CP to form 2 squads)

2x plasma scion command squads (ds with other scion capt)

3x 3 mortar heavy squads

Celestine is a problem, deepstriking BA are a problem, deepstriking plasma is a problem, freelance shield captains are a problem. Mortars + hurricane bolters for chaff/hordes, plasma + bikes + BA characters for hard targets, 50 guard bodies + scouts for board control/character meat shields? Hell if you ignore the scouts 21 s4 3+ attacks on the charge is nice (16 CC + 5 pistols) for 55 points.

Do I trade out celestine + culexus for 2x bikers (I've only ordered one box of bikes so far and really like my celestine model)?

2x bats + sc for 10 CP, regin cp relic for 1cp to one of scion capts (other relic to captian smash-fer).


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/29 19:52:26


Post by: Kzraahk


bananathug wrote:
supreme command
3x shield bike captains
1x celestine
culexes


Blood angel batallion
sang preist
DC captian
sanguinor

3x CCW scouts

2x DC

IG bat
2x scion capts
1x psycher

5x infantry (use CP to form 2 squads)

2x plasma scion command squads (ds with other scion capt)

3x 3 mortar heavy squads

Celestine is a problem, deepstriking BA are a problem, deepstriking plasma is a problem, freelance shield captains are a problem. Mortars + hurricane bolters for chaff/hordes, plasma + bikes + BA characters for hard targets, 50 guard bodies + scouts for board control/character meat shields? Hell if you ignore the scouts 21 s4 3+ attacks on the charge is nice (16 CC + 5 pistols) for 55 points.

Do I trade out celestine + culexus for 2x bikers (I've only ordered one box of bikes so far and really like my celestine model)?

2x bats + sc for 10 CP, regin cp relic for 1cp to one of scion capts (other relic to captian smash-fer).


Jetbike Captains get a 5++ on that dettachment


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/29 20:30:45


Post by: Wulfey


I like the idea of the list above. But I think you should just eat it on the scouts and put Celestine in their detachment as an HQ. Who cares if scouts don't have a chapter bonus. It is a minor bonus compared to the 3++ and 4++ on your biker captains. And then drop the blood angel stuff. It isn't that strong and devours the CP that your bikers need. More bikers would do more. For instance:

pure CUSTODES supreme command
3x bikers + 1-2 bikers as points allow

SOUP battalion
Celestine
3x scouts [needed against good lists just for spacing]
Culexus
Some other HQ, probably primaris psyker or greyfax for 2 +1 denies

CADIA + Scions battalion
Only IG in here to keep bonuses

EDIT: you could work in blood angels if you ditch celestine. But ... I mean yeah I like 3d6 charges ... but celestine moves 24" and doesn't need CP to make that first turn charge if you want it.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/29 23:29:20


Post by: Ordana


bananathug wrote:
supreme command
3x shield bike captains
1x celestine
culexes


Blood angel batallion
sang preist
DC captian
sanguinor

3x CCW scouts

2x DC

IG bat
2x scion capts
1x psycher

5x infantry (use CP to form 2 squads)

2x plasma scion command squads (ds with other scion capt)

3x 3 mortar heavy squads

Celestine is a problem, deepstriking BA are a problem, deepstriking plasma is a problem, freelance shield captains are a problem. Mortars + hurricane bolters for chaff/hordes, plasma + bikes + BA characters for hard targets, 50 guard bodies + scouts for board control/character meat shields? Hell if you ignore the scouts 21 s4 3+ attacks on the charge is nice (16 CC + 5 pistols) for 55 points.

Do I trade out celestine + culexus for 2x bikers (I've only ordered one box of bikes so far and really like my celestine model)?

2x bats + sc for 10 CP, regin cp relic for 1cp to one of scion capts (other relic to captian smash-fer).

1 captain can take the 3++ bike.
Another can take the Eye for a 4++
The 3e captain has a 5++

Better to drop the Pimaris Psyker and put Celestine + Culexus in the Guard battalion. You dont need their traits anyway.
Now your captains have a 4++ and dont really need better so you can instead make a Tempestus Prime your warlord for Grand Strategis + Aquilla.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/30 00:10:12


Post by: Spartacus


You need a Custodes Warlord to take Custodes Relics.

Shame we dont get a WT to recycle CPs, as theae relics are nnearly too good to pass up!


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/30 00:31:37


Post by: BrianDavion


Spartacus wrote:
You need a Custodes Warlord to take Custodes Relics.

Shame we dont get a WT to recycle CPs, as theae relics are nnearly too good to pass up!


outside from the ones that give a 3++ invul save, what does everyone think some of the best relics are? Auric shackles strikes me as a handy one, partiuclary when fighting armies with large melee units with two attacks each as you're literally cutting their attacks in half.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/30 00:34:24


Post by: DoomMouse


Can you use the 'open the vaults' stratagem if you don't have a custodes warlord?


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/30 02:40:31


Post by: meleti


 DoomMouse wrote:
Can you use the 'open the vaults' stratagem if you don't have a custodes warlord?


All you need is an AC detachment that isn't an Auxiliary Support detachment. Page 73 of the codex (every codex has similar language).


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/30 04:35:16


Post by: Spartacus


meleti wrote:
 DoomMouse wrote:
Can you use the 'open the vaults' stratagem if you don't have a custodes warlord?


All you need is an AC detachment that isn't an Auxiliary Support detachment. Page 73 of the codex (every codex has similar language).


The stratagem entitles you to take one or two 'extra' Adeptus Custodes relics. Probably a bit open to interpretation, but Id read that as you would need to qualify for the first one before paying for additional ones. Probably needs a FAQ


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/30 04:53:45


Post by: WindstormSCR


Spartacus wrote:
meleti wrote:
 DoomMouse wrote:
Can you use the 'open the vaults' stratagem if you don't have a custodes warlord?


All you need is an AC detachment that isn't an Auxiliary Support detachment. Page 73 of the codex (every codex has similar language).


The stratagem entitles you to take one or two 'extra' Adeptus Custodes relics. Probably a bit open to interpretation, but Id read that as you would need to qualify for the first one before paying for additional ones. Probably needs a FAQ


there was an FAQ, DG one that applied to general. long as you have a detachment you qualify for the stratagem


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/30 05:04:17


Post by: Spartacus


 WindstormSCR wrote:
Spartacus wrote:
meleti wrote:
 DoomMouse wrote:
Can you use the 'open the vaults' stratagem if you don't have a custodes warlord?


All you need is an AC detachment that isn't an Auxiliary Support detachment. Page 73 of the codex (every codex has similar language).


The stratagem entitles you to take one or two 'extra' Adeptus Custodes relics. Probably a bit open to interpretation, but Id read that as you would need to qualify for the first one before paying for additional ones. Probably needs a FAQ


there was an FAQ, DG one that applied to general. long as you have a detachment you qualify for the stratagem


Woah right you are. Thats a big boon for soup lists.

Custodes lead by Warlord Guilliman it is then...


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/30 09:26:34


Post by: DoomMouse


Awesome. Does that mean you can theoretically have 3 different detachments and up to 8 relics in a single list? Could be interesting to cherry pick the best from each codex alongside a guard brigade.

Fir custodes I was thinking of a 3 commander jetbike detachment with the relic and 'blood games' on the same model


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/30 09:33:42


Post by: Kdash


 DoomMouse wrote:
Awesome. Does that mean you can theoretically have 3 different detachments and up to 8 relics in a single list? Could be interesting to cherry pick the best from each codex alongside a guard brigade.

Fir custodes I was thinking of a 3 commander jetbike detachment with the relic and 'blood games' on the same model


You'd only get 7 max, but yes, you can do it. (1 Free, +2, +2, +2)

I agree. Though it depends on what you’re going to be using the Captain for.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/30 09:35:53


Post by: DoomMouse


Kdash wrote:
 DoomMouse wrote:
Awesome. Does that mean you can theoretically have 3 different detachments and up to 8 relics in a single list? Could be interesting to cherry pick the best from each codex alongside a guard brigade.

Fir custodes I was thinking of a 3 commander jetbike detachment with the relic and 'blood games' on the same model


You'd only get 7 max, but yes, you can do it. (1 Free, +2, +2, +2)

I agree. Though it depends on what you’re going to be using the Captain for.


Massive meteorite of flaming death?


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/01/30 20:10:22


Post by: Primark G


I really like the idea to run vanguard - great as an allied detachment.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/02/01 22:51:20


Post by: ansem90


What do you think about a mono bike army? I thought to start with something Like this :
+++ New Roster (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) [64 PL, 1195pts] +++

++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) ++

+ HQ +

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike: Auric Aquilis, Hurricane Bolter, Radiant Mantle, Warlord

+ Fast Attack +

Vertus Praetors
Vertus Praetor: Salvo Launcher
Vertus Praetor: Salvo Launcher
Vertus Praetor: Salvo Launcher

Vertus Praetors
Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter
Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter
Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter
Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter

Vertus Praetors
Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter
Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter
Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter
Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter

Created with BattleScribe


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/02/02 00:31:57


Post by: Spartacus


ansem90 wrote:
What do you think about a mono bike army? I thought to start with something Like this :
+++ New Roster (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) [64 PL, 1195pts] +++

++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) ++

+ HQ +

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike: Auric Aquilis, Hurricane Bolter, Radiant Mantle, Warlord

+ Fast Attack +

Vertus Praetors
Vertus Praetor: Salvo Launcher
Vertus Praetor: Salvo Launcher
Vertus Praetor: Salvo Launcher

Vertus Praetors
Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter
Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter
Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter
Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter

Vertus Praetors
Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter
Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter
Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter
Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter

Created with BattleScribe


Theyre gonna be a good unit for sure, we will see if they will be effective on their own.

If it were me I'd spread the salvo missiles amongst the squads, and give your Shield-Captain one of them. I think the advantages of having them all together is smaller than the extra protection of spreading them out. You dont want to give your opponent an obvious target.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/02/02 00:53:28


Post by: Primark G


I don't think a pure bike army is all that great TBH. They have S6 in melee which is okay but will struggle versus high-T enemy units.


Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone @ 2018/02/02 01:00:10


Post by: Audustum


 Primark G wrote:
I don't think a pure bike army is all that great TBH. They have S6 in melee which is okay but will struggle versus high-T enemy units.


Not really. Against an Imperial Knight 1 minimum squad of bikes should do 9.25 wounds. If they're re-rolling 1's to Hit it becomes 10.80. That's plenty enough damage in a heavy bike list to bring down T7 (fliers) and T8 (knights and tanks).

The Shield Captain on a bike should add 4.5 more wounds too. This isn't counting shooting attacks from anyone.