the twin accelerator cannon is really good. It's just... probably not... 300 points good.

The Exemplar dread with two fists and two Bolters is only 210 and has potential to be worth it's weight.

stratigo wrote:
on one hand, I'd like better options. On the other, I don't like forge world as the source of the best options. Because they are both poor at balance and hilariously expensive, and GW should never rely on forge world to patch holes in their armies.

So, the Heavy grav tank is 30 points cheaper than the landraider, gets a 6++, a better heavy bolter, fly and can transport 1 extra model. However it loses power of the machine spirit, -1 armour save and 2 lascannon shots.

Jury is out on which version of lascannon is better til some mathhammer can be done.

But, all for 30 points cheaper?

I'm surprised the Caladius weapons don't have additional rules like the Sicaran - if it is/was the forerunner to it.

Anyway, they probably should have released a whole lot more if they want things play testing for balance. How can we balance these 4 units against each other and the rest of the 40k units without the full knowledge and additional units. We could come together and make these 4 super balanced, only to have the rest of the units massively out of balance as a result.

I do like the "only 1 allowed per detachment" on the dreadnoughts though. Instantly shuts down the potential spam lists and increases list diversity.

So they are finally getting away with the pretense that this is a final product and just embracing the beta nature of 8th?

Take a look at any balancing thread on dakka and I'm pretty sure we can agree how that will go.

The weapons are way undercosted but the platforms are way over costed. I have no idea what they are doing and I doubt they do either. The accelerator cannon for only 70 points (8x missile launcher)?

The Bolt Cannon for only 25 (the -2 ap and +1 str over dual heavy bolters for only 5 more points, sign me up).

On the other hand the las-blaze (really, terrible name) cost more than a TL LC with less range and some wonky burst fire mode?

Also what's with only being able to take one per detachment? And the weird can't reduce enemy mod beyond 6+?

I don't think this bodes well as a first draft and I'm pretty sure those tanks are going to come in at 100 USD+ which makes it even more unlikely that I will buy one.

The more I think about it the more I hope this is a hoax or something...

bananathug wrote:
So they are finally getting away with the pretense that this is a final product and just embracing the beta nature of 8th?

Take a look at any balancing thread on dakka and I'm pretty sure we can agree how that will go.

The weapons are way undercosted but the platforms are way over costed. I have no idea what they are doing and I doubt they do either. The accelerator cannon for only 70 points (8x missile launcher)?

The Bolt Cannon for only 25 (the -2 ap and +1 str over dual heavy bolters for only 5 more points, sign me up).

On the other hand the las-blaze (really, terrible name) cost more than a TL LC with less range and some wonky burst fire mode?

Also what's with only being able to take one per detachment? And the weird can't reduce enemy mod beyond 6+?

I don't think this bodes well as a first draft and I'm pretty sure those tanks are going to come in at 100 USD+ which makes it even more unlikely that I will buy one.

The more I think about it the more I hope this is a hoax or something...

In that case, this would be an alpha, not beta stage, as they are beta'ing the rules for the upcoming imperial armour release.

I can see the modifiers all going the same was in the march FAQ. -1's stack but never reduce beyond making it a 6+ to hit. This would be really healthy for the scene.

Double Supreme Command of 3x Bike Captains and 2x Exemplars with Bolters is only 1380. Can deep strike both Dreads and easily afford a brigade of AM, if you wanted.

Or just a really efficient Battalion with sentinels, mortars, etc.

I don't hate it.

Question is, though, do the FW dreads come with 2 hands each? Bare hands, that is.

The Achilus with spear has -1 attack, +1 S, +1 T, +1 move compared to an GK grandmaster dreadknight...for 50 points cheaper.

Character rule, friend.

I'd pay 50pts to drop the Dreads wounds down to 9, increases it's FNP to 5+ and become a Character.

Edit: I'm dreadfully tired and may have misread the point here. Ignore me if I'm wrong.

 greyknight12 wrote:
The Achilus with spear has -1 attack, +1 S, +1 T, +1 move compared to an GK grandmaster dreadknight...for 50 points cheaper.

With I'd argue a worse shooting attack and, most importantly, no psychic. And doesn't the Dreadknight GM have a 4 up invul?

 greyknight12 wrote:
The Achilus with spear has -1 attack, +1 S, +1 T, +1 move compared to an GK grandmaster dreadknight...for 50 points cheaper.

Its worth noting that the Dreadknight is a psyker with a better invuln that can also boost his own invuln, and has much better shooting. Both can deepstrike, but the Custodes dread does so through a strat while the DK just pays 10 points, which is very cheap.

Thore dreadnoughts and vehicles benefits from the +1 invulnerable too?

Zorninsson wrote:
Thore dreadnoughts and vehicles benefits from the +1 invulnerable too?

No, it says only infantry and bikes

Caladius Grav Tank - Ranks in at 315. Needs a baby sitter near it to give it rerolls but never has to move, and never worries about getting into melee since fly on tanks is pretty big. also gives you instant threat for any part of your army trying to get up the table. Over all good, but could be better with a points drop a bit. (Maybe 250-280)

Coronus Grav Carrier - Ranks in at 370. Flying Land Raider. Except worse armor and 2 less las cannons. 6+ Invlun is nice, and holds 1 more guy. This isn't enough to justify using it though. Like above, fly is good for tanks, but you loose out half the firepower for AT. Land Raiders are bad, this is bad. Needs a major point drop

Exemplar dread Ranks in 210 base or 260 for anti infantry plasma or 265 for random shots anti tank. Missing a rule where he would get more attacks with 2 CCW, since most things like that have it. Barebones hes ok. I can see throwing him at big stuff asap to cause a distraction and hopefully punch some stuff to nothingness. Plasma flamers are good but way to much points wise each. Anti Tank is ok but random shots kills it. If it was a steady 3 shots id say may be worth it to run him up field while blasting since he still has 4 attacks in melee.

Achillus Ranks in at 245. Sticking with GWs really stupid idea of random shots, has a lascannon like spear. Min damage of 3 is nice, max of 6. Hes, ok...I guess?

Id maybe take the spear guy if I owned it or the Grav tank for funs. Its all disappointing. We must remember that bikes are our closest thing to my mighty lord fire raptor!

I think the costs are about right.

The Achillus looks decent to me. 12 wounds with a 5++ and 6+++ makes for a very tough platform. It’s very dangerous and quick too. The storm bolters are more like heavy bolters – and better when up close.

The tanks fly, so they can’t be locked in combat. Describing the Caladius as a predator hull is absurd. It has more wounds and two tries at a 6++. It has BS2+ as well. It’s murderous against heavy infantry and T7 vehicles. It’s also a fast attack choice for some reason, which could come in handy if trying to make an outrider detachment with bikes.

Meanwhile the Coronus can carry a full squad and a character across the board in safety. It costs a little more than a repulsor but is even tougher. It’s faster and tougher than the Land raider, carries an extra guy, and costs 10% less – though to be fair it’s got one less twin lascannon.
Did anyone seriously expect that Custodes would suddenly get a bunch of cheap stuff?

It's not a tough platform when a Lascannon forces it to only have a 5++/6+++ and then immediately degrade it. In fact, that's a pretty poor platform because suddenly it is less effective in shooting and melee than even Custodes troops.

No on is arguing Custodes would/should get cheap things, they're arguing they should be worth their price.

They're not.

Mandragola wrote:
The tanks fly, so they can’t be locked in combat. Describing the Caladius as a predator hull is absurd. It has more wounds and two tries at a 6++. It has BS2+ as well.

Speaking as a SoB player - you'll rarely get that first 6++. It only applies when your tank is out of cover and taking meltagun hits or for occasional run-ins with shadow swords. Not getting locked in combat is the big draw IMO.
As for BS2+, it really should be part of the weapon cost. Feels like forgeworld isn't splitting their prices in quite the same way as GW.

The local chaos player would love that transport, if only because he keeps getting his landraider swamped with models still inside :p

The Spear Contemptor looks decent but I think i'd rather just have 3 more bikes.

The Caladius actually doesn't seem half bad. It's like 315 points, 60" on the main gun means you don't really gotta move him. 8 shots should pack a punch.

Now he IS gonna get alpha struck by enemy fire and he WILL be dead by T2. He is not an objective holder or something you expect to keep around till end game.

So the question is whether you think he can kill enough to justify 315 in 1 or 2 rounds of shooting.

Exactly. Three bikes, three terminators, it all ends up doing more damage and being more durable.

Yeah the same issue applies to the Coronus. There’s no particular need to transport Custodes around, when bikes exist. It’s hard to see what you’d accomplish with a Coronus full of guys that you couldn’t achieve with 8-9 bikers for the same price.

Actually I think the Caladius has real merit. If there are a bunch of jetbikes zooming ahead, most people are going to be very worried. They will therefore shoot at the jetbikes, rather than the Caladius. The idea that it will always be dead by turn 2 is therefore not really true. If they’ve got that kind of firepower, and they don’t shoot it at your bikes, then they are probably about to be charged by a loads of bikers.

I’m not sure it’s needed, but it does a job nothing else in the list can – pretty well I think.

Mandragola wrote:
I think the costs are about right.

The tanks fly, so they can’t be locked in combat. Describing the Caladius as a predator hull is absurd. It has more wounds and two tries at a 6++. It has BS2+ as well. It’s murderous against heavy infantry and T7 vehicles. It’s also a fast attack choice for some reason, which could come in handy if trying to make an outrider detachment with bikes.

Meanwhile the Coronus can carry a full squad and a character across the board in safety. It costs a little more than a repulsor but is even tougher. It’s faster and tougher than the Land raider, carries an extra guy, and costs 10% less – though to be fair it’s got one less twin lascannon.
Did anyone seriously expect that Custodes would suddenly get a bunch of cheap stuff?

Huh?

Im guessing you think all the costs in the codex are right also?

Fly is good for tanks yes. Doesent mean it makes them playable still. It being a cast attack choice means nothing. Youd just take more bikes realistically. There no issue in custodies "making an outrider detachment".

Or I can spend a CP and 100% guarantee my guys get even farther then that flying turd transport can go and to the exact spot. Custodes are durable enough with stormshields they either teleport in or foot slog. A repulsor is bad to begin with, but its way better then this. It has a vast amount of HB shots so it can actually kill a lot.

No one asked for cheap stuff, but for things to be the correct point cost for what they are/do.

I can't wait until the release some more rules for other units.

Sooooo I am out of the home, but it looks like the Vexilla Magnifica would grant -1 to Hit the tanks and the dreads? If you're doing Caladius that could help keep it standing.

Well, at 1500 points you could do something like:

Shield Captain on Bike
3 bikes
3 bikes
4 bikes
Dude with -1 Vexilla
Caladius

Even if they keep the point costs as is, I'm gonna test the Caladius. I might even buy one though (such a cool miniature)

Audustum wrote:
Sooooo I am out of the home, but it looks like the Vexilla Magnifica would grant -1 to Hit the tanks and the dreads? If you're doing Caladius that could help keep it standing.

It can yea, but its not worth it really. If you do that. you might as well have a captain nearby to make sure it gets to reroll 1s to hit. Or even if you just do -1 that's another 120-30 points or something.

AC were designed as a close range/melee force in 40k

If you take the tank, its a pure distraction from your bikes. It sits back field and shoots at things that could hurt your bikes

str00dles1 wrote:

Audustum wrote:
Sooooo I am out of the home, but it looks like the Vexilla Magnifica would grant -1 to Hit the tanks and the dreads? If you're doing Caladius that could help keep it standing.

It can yea, but its not worth it really. If you do that. you might as well have a captain nearby to make sure it gets to reroll 1s to hit. Or even if you just do -1 that's another 120-30 points or something.

AC were designed as a close range/melee force in 40k

If you take the tank, its a pure distraction from your bikes. It sits back field and shoots at things that could hurt your bikes

So I don't really see it as an extra cost because I'm planning to have a flag bearer anyway. He gives my bike some badly needed first turn protection from being Alpha struck. If he's going to be with the bikes turn one anyway then he can also protect the tank turn one. The bikes will usually outpace him by turn to return 3 depending on how good his Advanced roll is. So the way I'm doing it is that if I get good Advance rolls he'll keep moving up with the bikes and I can scoop the tank around the back to keep it in range oven. If, however, he can just hang back with the tank and continue giving it a nice bubble.

I'm debating whether it's worth it to make him a Alaris flag bearer and give him the praetorian plate so he can then jump in the combat when the bikes engage in melee after crossing the board.

The one thing i keep coming back to and questioning is the 4 attacks on the Dreadnoughts. It just doesn't feel right when everything else you want to take already has 4+ attacks.

Sure, they are slightly tougher vs heavy bolters through to plasma, but the invuln is worse. Str 14 -3ap is going to help vs tanks, but, are the Dreadnoughts going to survive to get to the tanks?

I really want to see what the Galatus can do now!

But, on the plus side, the FW Custodes dreads do look absolutely amazing.

Custodes don't need units that are lascannon bait when the entire army is already lascannon bait. The forgeworld models are priced out of competitive play, and GW even notes that they should not be used in competitive play. I think GW doesn't want to see resin in its tournament anymore. See also, Chapter Approved stomping all over resin models and making them cost 20% more points than plastic models for comparable mathhammer damage/durability amounts. See also again, Chapter Approved entirely shutting down every resin model with power level over 30 with a 50-100% points cost increase.

Wulfey wrote:
Custodes don't need units that are lascannon bait when the entire army is already lascannon bait. The forgeworld models are priced out of competitive play, and GW even notes that they should not be used in competitive play. I think GW doesn't want to see resin in its tournament anymore. See also, Chapter Approved stomping all over resin models and making them cost 20% more points than plastic models for comparable mathhammer damage/durability amounts. See also again, Chapter Approved entirely shutting down every resin model with power level over 30 with a 50-100% points cost increase.

They say don't use them in competitve because they are pretty much untested beta rules.... Not that "when released don't take these in competitve".

Still plenty of FW resin out there that can, and does work. It's just not common in current lists.

Kdash wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
Custodes don't need units that are lascannon bait when the entire army is already lascannon bait. The forgeworld models are priced out of competitive play, and GW even notes that they should not be used in competitive play. I think GW doesn't want to see resin in its tournament anymore. See also, Chapter Approved stomping all over resin models and making them cost 20% more points than plastic models for comparable mathhammer damage/durability amounts. See also again, Chapter Approved entirely shutting down every resin model with power level over 30 with a 50-100% points cost increase.

They say don't use them in competitve because they are pretty much untested beta rules.... Not that "when released don't take these in competitve".

Still plenty of FW resin out there that can, and does work. It's just not common in current lists.

Contrast how common resin was pre-chapter approved with post-chapter approved .

Wulfey wrote:
Custodes don't need units that are lascannon bait when the entire army is already lascannon bait. The forgeworld models are priced out of competitive play, and GW even notes that they should not be used in competitive play. I think GW doesn't want to see resin in its tournament anymore. See also, Chapter Approved stomping all over resin models and making them cost 20% more points than plastic models for comparable mathhammer damage/durability amounts. See also again, Chapter Approved entirely shutting down every resin model with power level over 30 with a 50-100% points cost increase.

Where on Earth has GW said not to use resin/Forgeworld in competitive? You're gonna need to source that. I don't think they really care.

I believe Forgeworld was nerfed cause the studios can't communicate well for balance so GW put a hold on it. We'll see if it gets better in March. Note the Fire Raptor actually decreased in cost and Forgeworld armies like Elysians and Death Korps are still pretty good.

Regarding this, it's beta rules so we should all send feedback. Now's the time for change. I'm personally going to experiment with the Caladius this weekend.

The beta rules packet has a statement saying that Beta rules are not suitable for competitive play, they don't refer to ALL FW resin there.

for those wanting to listbuild and test the beta stuff, Battlescribe Files will have these in next release (already done, just waiting for a push) but to view/select them you will need to select "Use Beta Rules" under the No Force Org section.

I'm totally gonna play with this rules. I think a good way to playtest them is playing them 4 games each.
2 in a pure custodes army, 2 in a soup army with Imperial Guard.
After 4 games I'll drop the point costs of every unit of this by 10.

After 40 games (20 in pure custodes armies, 20 with Imperial Soup), with everything in this list being 100 points cheaper, I think I could have a nice data to analyze what prices feels better for them.
But this will probably take me 1 and a half month-2 months.

Dreads really should have received the +1 INV save boon from the Dex. As it stands, they gain nothing from being in a full Custodes detachment.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Dreads really should have received the +1 INV save boon from the Dex. As it stands, they gain nothing from being in a full Custodes detachment.

and with so many elites choices that can really make them a less desirable choice. on the other hand I suppose it means you could include a dread painlessly in a vanguard detachment if you wanted some sisters of silence. 2 squads of sisters, a custodes dread and sword and board shield captain maybe?

BrianDavion wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Dreads really should have received the +1 INV save boon from the Dex. As it stands, they gain nothing from being in a full Custodes detachment.

and with so many elites choices that can really make them a less desirable choice. on the other hand I suppose it means you could include a dread painlessly in a vanguard detachment if you wanted some sisters of silence. 2 squads of sisters, a custodes dread and sword and board shield captain maybe?

If you're adding a soup detachment, take Celestine as the HQ.

Audustum wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Dreads really should have received the +1 INV save boon from the Dex. As it stands, they gain nothing from being in a full Custodes detachment.

and with so many elites choices that can really make them a less desirable choice. on the other hand I suppose it means you could include a dread painlessly in a vanguard detachment if you wanted some sisters of silence. 2 squads of sisters, a custodes dread and sword and board shield captain maybe?

If you're adding a soup detachment, take Celestine as the HQ.

One I was considering before was Celestine, and a trio of Culexus Assassins for some good anti-psyker defense, since Smite would really hurt them. However I didn't really want three, I only wanted two. So with the spear dread I could take him, two Culexi(?) And Celestine and lose nothing by doing so.

Yeah. It's... Bad planning.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Dreads really should have received the +1 INV save boon from the Dex. As it stands, they gain nothing from being in a full Custodes detachment.

Use the Vexilla for dreads. Profit For Days!

 WindstormSCR wrote:
The beta rules packet has a statement saying that Beta rules are not suitable for competitive play, they don't refer to ALL FW resin there.

for those wanting to listbuild and test the beta stuff, Battlescribe Files will have these in next release (already done, just waiting for a push) but to view/select them you will need to select "Use Beta Rules" under the No Force Org section.

Also, you're my hero of the day. Thank you!

BS is really on top of their game.

 Primark G wrote:
BS is really on top of their game.

Its people like you and me that adds it to them. I have updated some DE ones in the past. Its not to hard, you can spend about an hour learning how it works and then make your own if you wanted too

Exalted.

So just to confirm it. A venerable contemptor Dreadnought have EXACTLY the
same profile as an Iron Hands contemptor and costs 32 pts more even with its PL (8) still the same?
It's easy to see how FW dreads seems almost playable in comparison.

I personally like the achillus. It's pricey, but the ability to deepstrike it using "from the golden light" means it can get into range to do work from the word go, and waste very little of its potential.

Audustum wrote:


Also, you're my hero of the day. Thank you!

There was some debate about the inclusion of beta rules, which is why the switch to show them is there. as far as custodes go I'm the main keeper of that file for the data project, so if anyone has suggestions for improvements, can always shoot me a PM

Thanks for all the fantastic support!

Ok.. i think i have my list i want to take, mostly b.c i like my SoB.

Custodes Outrider Detachment: 1332pts
Shield Captain on Bike, Hurricane bolters
Shield Captain on Bike, Hurricane bolters
Vertus Praeters x3, x3 Hurricane bolters
Vertus Praeters x3, x3 Hurricane bolters
Vertus Praeters x4, x4 Hurricane bolters

Imperial Outrider Detachment: 668pts
Celestine, 1 Gemini
Seraphim x5, x4 Inferno Pistols
Seraphim x5, x4 Inferno Pistols
Seraphim x5, x4 Inferno Pistols
Culexus Assasin
Culexus Assasin


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Are there better lists? For sure! But this is what i like

Very mobile, I like it. Culexus work very well with Custodes.

 Galas wrote:
I'm totally gonna play with this rules. I think a good way to playtest them is playing them 4 games each.
2 in a pure custodes army, 2 in a soup army with Imperial Guard.
After 4 games I'll drop the point costs of every unit of this by 10.

After 40 games (20 in pure custodes armies, 20 with Imperial Soup), with everything in this list being 100 points cheaper, I think I could have a nice data to analyze what prices feels better for them.
But this will probably take me 1 and a half month-2 months.

May i also suggest the following things to include in the testing?

Give the Caladius the same rule as the Sciaran Battle Tank for it's weapon
Change the Lastrum damage from 1 to 2 (someone pointed out that all the basic Custodes firepower does more damage than the "super powered" versions...
Change the Dreadnoughts shooting damage from D3 to 2 - potentially 3. Again, doesn't make a lot of sense that a Guardian Spear potentially does more damage per unsaved wound than a "las-pulsar".

These might be completely stupid changes that make them borderline OP, but should be considered from a internal codex balance point of view. If you need help running figures, let me know, i just don't have the resources and time to help test physical games right now though

I'm wanting to test an Exemplar, because I do believe 2x Supreme Commands of 3 Bike Captains w/ an Exemplar in each could function with an AM Battery, but I don't wanna throw the money at the models right now while their rules are erratic.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
I'm wanting to test an Exemplar, because I do believe 2x Supreme Commands of 3 Bike Captains w/ an Exemplar in each could function with an AM Battery, but I don't wanna throw the money at the models right now while their rules are erratic.

Got a regular contemptor floating about? Can easily proxy for testing purposes, and most reasonable people would be fine with that if its communicated clearly

Kdash wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I'm totally gonna play with this rules. I think a good way to playtest them is playing them 4 games each.
2 in a pure custodes army, 2 in a soup army with Imperial Guard.
After 4 games I'll drop the point costs of every unit of this by 10.

After 40 games (20 in pure custodes armies, 20 with Imperial Soup), with everything in this list being 100 points cheaper, I think I could have a nice data to analyze what prices feels better for them.
But this will probably take me 1 and a half month-2 months.

May i also suggest the following things to include in the testing?

Give the Caladius the same rule as the Sciaran Battle Tank for it's weapon
Change the Lastrum damage from 1 to 2 (someone pointed out that all the basic Custodes firepower does more damage than the "super powered" versions...
Change the Dreadnoughts shooting damage from D3 to 2 - potentially 3. Again, doesn't make a lot of sense that a Guardian Spear potentially does more damage per unsaved wound than a "las-pulsar".

These might be completely stupid changes that make them borderline OP, but should be considered from a internal codex balance point of view. If you need help running figures, let me know, i just don't have the resources and time to help test physical games right now though

Yeah. I'll make those changes for quality of life and playtest them with those stats. For this weekend I have already planned 8 games (4 saturday-4 sunday). I'll try to fit 10 games next week. GW should pay me for this!

What kind of Imperial Guard force you guys think would be the most efficient and cheese with this units? I'm trying to playtest them in a extremely competitive meta. But no Dark Reapers, I think that would skew my data because Dark Reapers are so OP and they are in line for the slaugther in march's FAQ. My objetive is to gather data that points for a "competitive but not OP" state for this units. Thats why I'm not using the obviously ultra-OP units agaisnt them, but still try them vs competitive lists.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Ok.. i think i have my list i want to take, mostly b.c i like my SoB.

Custodes Outrider Detachment: 1332pts
Shield Captain on Bike, Hurricane bolters
Shield Captain on Bike, Hurricane bolters
Vertus Praeters x3, x3 Hurricane bolters
Vertus Praeters x3, x3 Hurricane bolters
Vertus Praeters x4, x4 Hurricane bolters

Imperial Outrider Detachment: 668pts
Celestine, 1 Gemini
Seraphim x5, x4 Inferno Pistols
Seraphim x5, x4 Inferno Pistols
Seraphim x5, x4 Inferno Pistols
Culexus Assasin
Culexus Assasin


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Are there better lists? For sure! But this is what i like

I feel like dropping a Culexus and 1 Praetor to get 2x Company Commanders and 3x10 guardsmen would really improve that list. You need something cheap to sit on objectives and you need something to absorb 3d6 charges out of deepstrike if you end up going second. Praetors are tough per model, but you don't want them absorbing first turn charges. Better to have 40 points of guard take the hit.

So I'm thinking about getting Custodes/Tempestus started with an Outrider detachment for the Custodes and bike all over the board, some IG artillery pieces and a bunch of MSU Tempestus squads deep striking to optimum points on the battlefield to hold objectives/give folks some plasma loving.

Now what I'm struggling with is I'm tempted to toss in an Allarus squad of five with an Allarus shield-captain as a way to further split enemy firepower. They can deal with the termies in their line, but if they do that's firepower not going other places and those Allarus look tough on paper. It's a pretty pricey deep strike bomb though, so I'm curious if this is a worthwhile strategy or are these guys just gonna get blown off the table before they do anything?

 Swiftblade wrote:
So I'm thinking about getting Custodes/Tempestus started with an Outrider detachment for the Custodes and bike all over the board, some IG artillery pieces and a bunch of MSU Tempestus squads deep striking to optimum points on the battlefield to hold objectives/give folks some plasma loving.

Now what I'm struggling with is I'm tempted to toss in an Allarus squad of five with an Allarus shield-captain as a way to further split enemy firepower. They can deal with the termies in their line, but if they do that's firepower not going other places and those Allarus look tough on paper. It's a pretty pricey deep strike bomb though, so I'm curious if this is a worthwhile strategy or are these guys just gonna get blown off the table before they do anything?

They won't get blown off as fast as something like a Blood Angels bomb, but you're better off buying more bikes. Just use the "From Golden Light" stratagem and deep strike 1/2 units for 1/3 CP.

EDIT: Except the Captains. Take an Allarus Captain then deep strike a bike or 2 bike squads with him using the stratagem.

Five Allarus with a terminator captain would be really good. They have the best strstegens.

 Primark G wrote:
Five Allarus with a terminator captain would be really good. They have the best strstegens.

Such as? Stooping dove looks like the best to me.

stratigo wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Five Allarus with a terminator captain would be really good. They have the best strstegens.

Such as? Stooping dove looks like the best to me.

They can use -
Castellan Strike (extra -1ap on axes)
Concussion Grenade (no overwatch and -1 to hit)
Inescapable Vengeance (can target characters)
Unleash the Lions (splits the unit up into 1 model units)

They also have access to several of the generic ones as well (The axe one is generic, but, as you'll always be taking axes...)

Stooping Dive is pretty neat, but, it is 3CP and you have to remember that it's only 1 unit. You can pull off some fun combos with it though - but, it's pretty much an all or nothing thing that costs practically all of your CP

The tangle grenade is a good compliment to the bikes, and it's the only reason I include a unit of Terminators in my lists next to Bikes. That and their ability to shoot characters on demand, if possible. However your mileage with that one is more army dependant than the first.

3 CP is not worth it imo when there are so many other really good ones for 1 CP.

3 CP for a stratagem that still requires you to make a successful charge roll? No thanks.

I think it'd only be useful if your opponent charges against a unit of Bikes or Allarus with a very choppy unit (Death Company, Berzerkers, etc) and you have a second unit right next to it.
Otherwise, no opponent is gonna leave a valuable unit at charge distance. Spending 3CP and having to make a 9-12" charge? No thanks.

Yeah like I said Allarus get all the best strats.

Hoodwink wrote:
3 CP for a stratagem that still requires you to make a successful charge roll? No thanks.

3 CP to potentially wipe a enemy unit and/or contest an objective you couldn't reach on your turn during your opponent's turn. Yes please.

Also, you should be running a Imperial Guard warlord anyway so it's more than likely a 2 CP Stratagem after refund with that sweet, sweet, 1/27 chance of being completely free.

Also, just the threat of the Stratagem means he has to be really nervous about getting into CC with any of your gunline so long as the bikes are near.

 Primark G wrote:
3 CP is not worth it imo when there are so many other really good ones for 1 CP.

This is why I find Unleash the Lions problematic too. Army wide Split Fire makes it questionable to begin with. Then 2CP...

Honestly, the only Stratagems I think are worthwhile:

From Golden Light They Come

Unflinching

Tangle Grenade

Open the Vaults

Victor of the Blood Games

Shoulder the Mantle

Indomitable Guardians

Spark of Divinity

Even in Death

And maybe Plant the Vexilla.

None of these are unit specific.

Yeah, and looking at these strats I barely start the game with any CP between open the vaults (3), victor of the blood games (2-4) and from golden light (3) that's between 8-10 cp I'm spending before the game starts.

I really wish I could have CP regen or some sort of CP battery outside of a guard detachment but I just can't make any of this work without a cheap battalion and a guard warlord and relic.

I guess I could squeeze gulliman in but the guard battalion is just cheaper (220-320 points) and does a better job racking up those CPs...

RogueApiary wrote:

Hoodwink wrote:
3 CP for a stratagem that still requires you to make a successful charge roll? No thanks.

3 CP to potentially wipe a enemy unit and/or contest an objective you couldn't reach on your turn during your opponent's turn. Yes please.

Also, you should be running a Imperial Guard warlord anyway so it's more than likely a 2 CP Stratagem after refund with that sweet, sweet, 1/27 chance of being completely free.

Also, just the threat of the Stratagem means he has to be really nervous about getting into CC with any of your gunline so long as the bikes are near.

The problem is that you are using the max possible CP a stratagem can use on something that is not guaranteed to work in an army that already struggles with CP. I mean, Orbital Strike is potentially an absolutely devastating stratagem but you never really see it used outside of "Eh why not?" moments due to its inconsistency. The only time it'd be worth it, like someone said, is it you are sitting right beside the unit getting charged. It's got its potential, but a lot of things have to line up perfectly for it to work the way you want. Even if they do, you still have to not botch the charge roll. The threat of losing 3 CP for nothing off a botched roll is tough to think about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

bananathug wrote:
Yeah, and looking at these strats I barely start the game with any CP between open the vaults (3), victor of the blood games (2-4) and from golden light (3) that's between 8-10 cp I'm spending before the game starts.

I really wish I could have CP regen or some sort of CP battery outside of a guard detachment but I just can't make any of this work without a cheap battalion and a guard warlord and relic.

I guess I could squeeze gulliman in but the guard battalion is just cheaper (220-320 points) and does a better job racking up those CPs...

Victor of the Blood Games is so stupidly good on a Shield Capt on Bike with 3++ relic lol.

Strats I find worthwhile:

1) Blood Games
2) extra 3++ relic
3) from golden light

That’s it

Does a Supreme Command Detachment get the benefit of Emperors Chosen?

Incognito15 wrote:
Does a Supreme Command Detachment get the benefit of Emperors Chosen?

If all the units in the detachment are ADEPTUS CUSTODES, then yes.

Spartacus wrote:

Incognito15 wrote:
Does a Supreme Command Detachment get the benefit of Emperors Chosen?

If all the units in the detachment are ADEPTUS CUSTODES, then yes.

Which is precisely why a Supreme Detachment of Shield Captains on Bikes is sooooo tempting to add into another army for so many people right now.

 luke1705 wrote:
Strats I find worthwhile:

1) Blood Games
2) extra 3++ relic
3) from golden light

That’s it

Ditto on that I've played 5 games with custodes so far and I still haven't been able to even attempt stooping dive and a lot of the other strats are either way to niche for the list or I haven't had the Cp to spend.

I mean I’ve got 8 CP in my list from an IG batallion, plus two 5+ CP relics (one for when I spend them and one for when my opponent does).

So I’m likely looking at 14ish CP for the game, which is broken down as follows:

8-10 on blood Games (I have 5 shield captains on jetbikes)
1 for bike relic
Maybe 1 or 3 to deep strike but not often
One or two left over for charge re-rolls
Situationally 1 for Vengeance if Lost Cadia for my Guard mortars

I just dislike Guard aesthetically and play style so I avoid them, but I still scrounge up 7 CP with some builds having a 5+ recovery. A lot of the Stratagems are situational, but it gets hard to not want to just spend most of it on Victor of the Blood Games.

Concussion grenades is really good too combined with Culexus.

Stooping dive isn't only useful against enemy assaults. It's also good if you have your bikers in enemy lines but not engaged. It's a free round of attacks from your unit, which could be devastating.

For me the biggest benefit of Stooping dive is that when your opponent walks out of CC to shoot at you with the rest of his army he needs to focus you enough to kill you or you dive right back into the unit.
This is a problem when you charged with mulitple bike units.

Retreat is a big problem for assault armies. Having some sort of answer to it is great.

Audustum wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
3 CP is not worth it imo when there are so many other really good ones for 1 CP.

This is why I find Unleash the Lions problematic too. Army wide Split Fire makes it questionable to begin with. Then 2CP...

Honestly, the only Stratagems I think are worthwhile:

From Golden Light They Come

Unflinching

Tangle Grenade

Open the Vaults

Victor of the Blood Games

Shoulder the Mantle

Indomitable Guardians

Spark of Divinity

Even in Death

And maybe Plant the Vexilla.

None of these are unit specific.

Whilst not having had a game for yonks, let alone with Custards, I'd like to speak in defence of Unleash The Lions.

It definitely needs a bit of know-wots to be effective, but done so it doesn't half help overcome the numerical inferiority inherent to Custards. To break up a unit of 5 Allarus into 5 separate, rampaging demi-gods has a definite appeal. They're tough enough that desultory fire isn't going to reliably drop them, so your opponent splitting fire may not be as bad as one assumes - there's the very real risk that whilst he might take a few wounds off, not enough will be done to a given model to remove it. Not unless they really pour it on. And whilst they're trying to deal with the Sudden 5, that's firepower not being directed at the rest of my force. Again, that has an appeal all it's own.

I guess it really boils down to what your opponent is fielding.

If he's going with Guardsmen for the bulk, a single Allarus is tough and 'ard enough to wallop a unit on their own, and capitalise on the Battleshock (provided of course you've removed the Commissar...).

If it's multiple units of 30 Ork Boyz? Yeah, well, my charge is defo gonna hurt them....but that's an awful lot of attacks coming back at me. Yes, I could bung multiple Allarus into that combat - but because of the alternating activation in HTH, I could lose more than one without getting a single swing in.

So not universally useful, but damned good if you work at it.

I wouldn't worry too much about Commissars any more.

With the Ork Boyz example, splitting the unit up can still be advantageous. Each Allarus is a separate unit, so wound pools don't transfer between them. The Ork player will need to spread out their attacks and inevitably end up over-killing some and leaving others alive to strike back.

Strange I didn't think of that! Totally clocked it as a benefit of forcing your opponent to divide his fire!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
3 CP is not worth it imo when there are so many other really good ones for 1 CP.

This is why I find Unleash the Lions problematic too. Army wide Split Fire makes it questionable to begin with. Then 2CP...

Honestly, the only Stratagems I think are worthwhile:

From Golden Light They Come

Unflinching

Tangle Grenade

Open the Vaults

Victor of the Blood Games

Shoulder the Mantle

Indomitable Guardians

Spark of Divinity

Even in Death

And maybe Plant the Vexilla.

None of these are unit specific.

Whilst not having had a game for yonks, let alone with Custards, I'd like to speak in defence of Unleash The Lions.

It definitely needs a bit of know-wots to be effective, but done so it doesn't half help overcome the numerical inferiority inherent to Custards. To break up a unit of 5 Allarus into 5 separate, rampaging demi-gods has a definite appeal. They're tough enough that desultory fire isn't going to reliably drop them, so your opponent splitting fire may not be as bad as one assumes - there's the very real risk that whilst he might take a few wounds off, not enough will be done to a given model to remove it. Not unless they really pour it on. And whilst they're trying to deal with the Sudden 5, that's firepower not being directed at the rest of my force. Again, that has an appeal all it's own.

I guess it really boils down to what your opponent is fielding.

If he's going with Guardsmen for the bulk, a single Allarus is tough and 'ard enough to wallop a unit on their own, and capitalise on the Battleshock (provided of course you've removed the Commissar...).

If it's multiple units of 30 Ork Boyz? Yeah, well, my charge is defo gonna hurt them....but that's an awful lot of attacks coming back at me. Yes, I could bung multiple Allarus into that combat - but because of the alternating activation in HTH, I could lose more than one without getting a single swing in.

So not universally useful, but damned good if you work at it.

This still does not seem very worthwhile. You're spending 2 CP and spending a ton of points on the off-chance he'll screw up his division and wounds will overkill. Pass.

When it comes to the actual effectiveness of the Allarus in combat, see a few pages back. Multiple people exhaustively went over the math. You are better off taking a bike in every scenario including character hunting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Asmodai wrote:
I wouldn't worry too much about Commissars any more.

With the Ork Boyz example, splitting the unit up can still be advantageous. Each Allarus is a separate unit, so wound pools don't transfer between them. The Ork player will need to spread out their attacks and inevitably end up over-killing some and leaving others alive to strike back.

It's really not that hard to get an approximate average, add 1 Boy for luck and move on. I wouldn't invest so many resources on something so easily thwarted.

Audustum wrote:


This still does not seem very worthwhile. You're spending 2 CP and spending a ton of points on the off-chance he'll screw up his division and wounds will overkill. Pass.

When it comes to the actual effectiveness of the Allarus in combat, see a few pages back. Multiple people exhaustively went over the math. You are better off taking a bike in every scenario including character hunting.

Can you link the page that this is on? I feel like the higher strength of axes would make them better against high toughness targets than the bikes lances.

 Swiftblade wrote:

Audustum wrote:


This still does not seem very worthwhile. You're spending 2 CP and spending a ton of points on the off-chance he'll screw up his division and wounds will overkill. Pass.

When it comes to the actual effectiveness of the Allarus in combat, see a few pages back. Multiple people exhaustively went over the math. You are better off taking a bike in every scenario including character hunting.

Can you link the page that this is on? I feel like the higher strength of axes would make them better against high toughness targets than the bikes lances.

I'll do you one better and serve some delicious copy-pasta divided by category.

Bikes and Terminators Shooting Characters

The Allarus can kill the Captain in the shooting phase then charge another unit - something your precious jetbikes cannot do. I was very generous with the math to help the durability of the Captain... arguing 2.5 versus 3 is dumb.

Can=/=probably will. The math shows that no, on average they fail to kill the captain. If I grab Anydice to math out the probability of him dying...

Okay, chances of doing wounds in shooting are as follows, assuming 2 shots on the grenades each and in range (including Rapid Fire) for everything.

0 Wounds.........100%
1 Wound...........89.96%
2 Wounds.........80.25%
3 Wounds.........60.48%
4 Wounds.........44.31%
5 Wounds.........27.59%

So they've got about a 1/4 chance of one-shotting the Captain in shooting. Not bad... But when you're paying 2 CP and 3-4 times his points cost, not good.

If the character is exposed, then the bikes can shoot him just as well as the Allarus can, and they do, assuming a min squad in rapid fire range, the following wounds...

0 Wounds.....100%
1 Wound.......99.54%
2 Wounds.....96.87%
3 Wounds.....89.35%
4 Wounds.....75.58%
5 Wounds.....57.27%

Making them twice as likely to down him in shooting for barely any more points.

Let's look at 'character shooting' too. One of the things Allarus are supposed to be good at. You know how many Allarus are needed to 1 round a character with shooting? Let's use the humble and quite average Space Marine Captain as an example. For purposes of this, we'll ignore the fact that if you're fighting a good opponent you will never be able to deep strike within 12" of a vanilla captain like this:

3 Ballistus Grenade Launchers shooting at a naked Captain in Power Armor with an Iron Halo will inflict 2 wounds on average. That's it. Not even 50% of the Captain's life. The axes, even IN rapid fire range, will only inflict 2.5. A Captain has 5 wounds. That means even after you spend CP to let an Allarus unit shoot at a humble Captain, you're still not likely to actually kill the guy unless you're packing more than a minimum squad. Let's look at the costs on that, a minimum squad already costs you 252 points. The stratagem to shoot characters is 2CP on top of those points. That lowely Captain you just tried to kill? 74 points. That minimum squad of Allarus costs more than THREE TIMES the Captain, can't even kill him with shooting, and doesn't have the Fly keyword to get over his surrounding retinue.

If you take a bigger unit of Allarus you can one round the Captain, sure, but now you're looking at an even BIGGER than 3-1 ratio on points. This is not an effective method at all. Heaven forbid you actually try to shoot a Character who WANTS to fight you either; it's gonna get even worse.

FYI, if you CAN somehow shoot their Hurricane Bolters against a character, the Bikes average more damage. 3 Bikes is 36 Hurricane Bolter shots (we gave Rapid Fire to the Allarus so we'll give it to the Bikes too). 36 bolter shots is 5 damage exactly against T4 3+, which means the Bikes SHOULD kill the Captain with their guns if they can shoot him.

Conversely, the Bikes can Deep Strike if you want (From Golden Light), can jump over chaff and retinues, are better at killing higher toughness, get the same number of attacks and only cost 270 to the Allarus's 252.

Resiliency of Bikes Against Shooting

Without any Vexillia, it takes the following to kill a minimum unit of 3 Bikes:

324 Bolter Shots

54 Plasma Shots (27 overcharged)

16 Lascannon Shots

WITH the Vexillia Magnifica:

432 Bolter Shots

72 Plasma Shots (36 overcharged)

21 Lascannon Shots

Specifically Overwatch

Wraithguard are T6 with 3W and a 3+. A minimum squad of Bikes drops one with Hurricane Bolters from the get-go (3.33 wounds). Then the overwatch: 4d3 S10 AP-4 1 damage. Sure this is it, right?

2.68 wounds. That's how much damage those 4 Wraithguard with D-Scythes should do.

Damage of Bikes Vs. Terminators

Let's invent a T8 model with a 4++ and FnP Warlord Trait of 5+++. Let's simulate 2 rounds of combat for each:

Bikes R1: 3.71 wounds.
Bikes R2: 2.22 wounds.
Total: 5.93 wounds.

Allarus R1: 3.33 wounds.
Allarus R2: 3.33 wounds.
Total: 6.66 wounds.

Difference? .73 wounds. A fairly negligible difference. The only time the Allarus have a decent wounds advantage over the Bikes is against T7.

Bikes R1: 3.71 wounds.
Bikes R2: 2.22 wounds.
Total: 5.93 wounds.

Allarus R1: 4.45 wounds.
Allarus R2: 4.45 wounds.
Total: 8.90 wounds.

Even this isn't huge though.

As you can see, the only noticeable lead the axes get is when you have three conditions met: 1. Multi-round combat. 2. You're at a damage differential (T7 is still 3+ for axes but 5+ for bikes, T15 would be 6+ for bikes but 5+ for axes). 3. There is a notable invulnerable save.

So basically if you're fighting Magnus or Mortarion. If you want to just straight up hit a T7 tank with no invulnerable:

Bike R1: 6.17
Bike R2: 3.70

Allarus R1: 5.94
Allarus R2: 5.94

T8 vehicle (Imperial Knight)

Bike R1: 6.17
Bike R2: 3.70

Allarus R1: 4.45
Allarus R2: 4.45

In multi-round combat, the Allarus eventually pull ahead (but what tank won't pull back?) while on the turn they charged the Bikes will actually average a bit more damage against T7. Against T8, the Bikes outperform the axes until you hit the third round of combat.

All math can be quickly and easily verified here:
http://mathhammer.thefieldsofblood.com/

I assume all the math works out to include the rerolling wounds on the charge for Bikes? If it does, you really can't dismiss the fact that counter assaulters will deny you that option in that round of combat. Then, you are stuck in combat if neither unit wipes the other, forcing you to miss the rerolling wounds on the subsequent round, too. Also, if you fail to wipe the unit in assault on your charging round, you are missing the rerolling yet again.

This is the problem with taking Mathhammer as the end all. It works in a vacuum which is rarely the case in real life. Bikes are great when they are used at their best case scenarios. Allarus I feel are more consistent since they don't rely on requiring the charge to be max effectiveness. That and mixed with the ability to deepstrike and deny first turn wipes without using CP, and they have more options for stratagems as mentioned earlier.

Hoodwink wrote:
I assume all the math works out to include the rerolling wounds on the charge for Bikes? If it does, you really can't dismiss the fact that counter assaulters will deny you that option in that round of combat. Then, you are stuck in combat if neither unit wipes the other, forcing you to miss the rerolling wounds on the subsequent round, too. Also, if you fail to wipe the unit in assault on your charging round, you are missing the rerolling yet again.

This is the problem with taking Mathhammer as the end all. It works in a vacuum which is rarely the case in real life. Bikes are great when they are used at their best case scenarios. Allarus I feel are more consistent since they don't rely on requiring the charge to be max effectiveness. That and mixed with the ability to deepstrike and deny first turn wipes without using CP, and they have more options for stratagems as mentioned earlier.

Check the resiliency part of the math. Your bikes are in no danger T1.

As multiple others have said recently in the thread, the Allarus Stratagems just aren't that good.

The math shows re-rolling wounds on first round then no re-roll on second. The Bikes are 14" move with Fly, they almost certainly WILL get the charge your target. You'll also have multiple units to counter charge any counter chargers (once we start looking at the whole board).

If there is a more dangerous unit to 'counter assault' then that's actually the unit your bikes are probably charging so I find this point relatively moot.

The fact is the bikes do just about everything the Allarus do but better for the same cost.

EDIT: Even without the charge bonus, the difference between the Bikes and axes is negligible. Against an Imperial Knight the bikes will do 3.70 Vs. the 4.45 of the axes. That's a very small difference you're gaining by giving up everything the Bikes offer. Notably, the Bikes can charge flyers like Stormravens and Fire Raptors while the Terminators cannot.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 Primark G wrote:

3 CP is not worth it imo when there are so many other really good ones for 1 CP.

This is why I find Unleash the Lions problematic too. Army wide Split Fire makes it questionable to begin with. Then 2CP...

Honestly, the only Stratagems I think are worthwhile:

From Golden Light They Come

Unflinching

Tangle Grenade

Open the Vaults

Victor of the Blood Games

Shoulder the Mantle

Indomitable Guardians

Spark of Divinity

Even in Death

And maybe Plant the Vexilla.

None of these are unit specific.

Whilst not having had a game for yonks, let alone with Custards, I'd like to speak in defence of Unleash The Lions.

It definitely needs a bit of know-wots to be effective, but done so it doesn't half help overcome the numerical inferiority inherent to Custards. To break up a unit of 5 Allarus into 5 separate, rampaging demi-gods has a definite appeal. They're tough enough that desultory fire isn't going to reliably drop them, so your opponent splitting fire may not be as bad as one assumes - there's the very real risk that whilst he might take a few wounds off, not enough will be done to a given model to remove it. Not unless they really pour it on. And whilst they're trying to deal with the Sudden 5, that's firepower not being directed at the rest of my force. Again, that has an appeal all it's own.

I guess it really boils down to what your opponent is fielding.

If he's going with Guardsmen for the bulk, a single Allarus is tough and 'ard enough to wallop a unit on their own, and capitalise on the Battleshock (provided of course you've removed the Commissar...).

If it's multiple units of 30 Ork Boyz? Yeah, well, my charge is defo gonna hurt them....but that's an awful lot of attacks coming back at me. Yes, I could bung multiple Allarus into that combat - but because of the alternating activation in HTH, I could lose more than one without getting a single swing in.

So not universally useful, but damned good if you work at it.

I agree that splitting the unit can be very powerful. I was playing against an Imp soup army with lots of support characters. I angled some shots using the strat to target characters and popped a couple psykers. Next turn they split and I bring in my Wardens and a SM unit overwhelming his three SM Dev squads. Worked out pretty good.

As multiple others have said recently in the thread, the Allarus Stratagems just aren't that good.

Have you actually played more than one game using the terminators?

So, what we discovered when we had the dicussion a few pages back/in another thread, was the following -

Bikes out damage Terminators in regards to shooting.
Bikes have the mobility to -potentially- target characters.
Bikes out damage Terminators in assault, in the turn they charge.

Terminators can always shoot past screens into characters at the cost of CP.
Terminators can force the split up of enemy fire.
Terminators out damage Bikes if Bikes don't get the charge
Terminators out damage Bikes after the initial fight phase.

In the example of both units shooting a Marine Captain, 3 Rapid Fire Hurricane bolters will on average kill 1 captain, whereas the Terminators will do 3.75 wounds (due to Iron Halo)

Against each other -

Shooting
Bikes do 1.67 wounds
Termiantors do 1.94 wounds

Combat
Charging bikes do 8.89 wounds
Bikes do 6.67 wounds
Terminators do 6.67 wounds

They do the same damage, simply because of the 4++ and both having the same amount of attacks and both wounding on 3s.

Combat vs a Rhino
Charging Bikes do 9.26 wounds
Bikes do 5.56 wounds
Terminators do 8.89 wounds

At the end of the day -

For shooting Bikes > Terminators
For Combat Charging Bikes > Terminators > Bikes

It's simply your choice as the points difference is 18 points in favour for the Terminators.
Free deep-strike vs 14" move

The rest is going to completely depend on how many CP you have available to you.

Personally, if i was vs Custodes bikes i'd take 2nd turn every single time. They have to come towards you, you get a turn of likely decent fire vs them. You likely get the charge and deny them their re-rolls. After that the bikes simply never get to benefit from their re-rolls from charging as you can potentially just keep locking them up when/if they fall back. (8" charges though)

 Primark G wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 Primark G wrote:

3 CP is not worth it imo when there are so many other really good ones for 1 CP.

This is why I find Unleash the Lions problematic too. Army wide Split Fire makes it questionable to begin with. Then 2CP...

Honestly, the only Stratagems I think are worthwhile:

From Golden Light They Come

Unflinching

Tangle Grenade

Open the Vaults

Victor of the Blood Games

Shoulder the Mantle

Indomitable Guardians

Spark of Divinity

Even in Death

And maybe Plant the Vexilla.

None of these are unit specific.

Whilst not having had a game for yonks, let alone with Custards, I'd like to speak in defence of Unleash The Lions.

It definitely needs a bit of know-wots to be effective, but done so it doesn't half help overcome the numerical inferiority inherent to Custards. To break up a unit of 5 Allarus into 5 separate, rampaging demi-gods has a definite appeal. They're tough enough that desultory fire isn't going to reliably drop them, so your opponent splitting fire may not be as bad as one assumes - there's the very real risk that whilst he might take a few wounds off, not enough will be done to a given model to remove it. Not unless they really pour it on. And whilst they're trying to deal with the Sudden 5, that's firepower not being directed at the rest of my force. Again, that has an appeal all it's own.

I guess it really boils down to what your opponent is fielding.

If he's going with Guardsmen for the bulk, a single Allarus is tough and 'ard enough to wallop a unit on their own, and capitalise on the Battleshock (provided of course you've removed the Commissar...).

If it's multiple units of 30 Ork Boyz? Yeah, well, my charge is defo gonna hurt them....but that's an awful lot of attacks coming back at me. Yes, I could bung multiple Allarus into that combat - but because of the alternating activation in HTH, I could lose more than one without getting a single swing in.

So not universally useful, but damned good if you work at it.

Have you actually played more than one game using the terminators?

I play against people who would never let you deep strike Allarus anywhere close to 3 units of their devastators or any other relevant portion of their gunline. You're not even going to get within 18" let alone 9". Without Fly you will get bogged down in inexpensive chaff for the entirety of the game.

Plus, look at my forum title. I originally played Grey Knights. The Allarus are stronger than the GK's, but they're the same idea. I've got experience on this topic dating back to before you could even field Custodes


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kdash wrote:
So, what we discovered when we had the dicussion a few pages back/in another thread, was the following -

Bikes out damage Terminators in regards to shooting.
Bikes have the mobility to -potentially- target characters.
Bikes out damage Terminators in assault, in the turn they charge.

Terminators can always shoot past screens into characters at the cost of CP.
Terminators can force the split up of enemy fire.
Terminators out damage Bikes if Bikes don't get the charge
Terminators out damage Bikes after the initial fight phase.

In the example of both units shooting a Marine Captain, 3 Rapid Fire Hurricane bolters will on average kill 1 captain, whereas the Terminators will do 3.75 wounds (due to Iron Halo)

Against each other -

Shooting
Bikes do 1.67 wounds
Termiantors do 1.94 wounds

Combat
Charging bikes do 8.89 wounds
Bikes do 6.67 wounds
Terminators do 6.67 wounds

They do the same damage, simply because of the 4++ and both having the same amount of attacks and both wounding on 3s.

Combat vs a Rhino
Charging Bikes do 9.26 wounds
Bikes do 5.56 wounds
Terminators do 8.89 wounds

At the end of the day -

For shooting Bikes > Terminators
For Combat Charging Bikes > Terminators > Bikes

It's simply your choice as the points difference is 18 points in favour for the Terminators.
Free deep-strike vs 14" move

The rest is going to completely depend on how many CP you have available to you.

Personally, if i was vs Custodes bikes i'd take 2nd turn every single time. They have to come towards you, you get a turn of likely decent fire vs them. You likely get the charge and deny them their re-rolls. After that the bikes simply never get to benefit from their re-rolls from charging as you can potentially just keep locking them up when/if they fall back. (8" charges though)

Mostly right but slightly off. Axes only beat bikes against T7 and just by a hair's breadth at T8 without the charge. For similar reasons, the axes also outperform against T6 (it's another break point). Outside the break points, however, the bikes win even without the charge unless you have a good invulnerable save (at which point they equalize).

Without Charge
Against T9 it's 5.56 (bikes) to 4.45 (axes).
Against T5 it's 11.11 (bikes) to 8.89 (axes).
Against T4 it's 11.11 (bikes) to 11.11 (axes) (the -1 AP of the bikes equals out the 2+ to wound for the axes).
Against T3 it's 13.90 (bikes) to 11.11 (axes).

So the axes only beat the bikes in very specific niches and even then they only do it by a handful of wounds at best. That's it. They really aren't that much better even in places where they are supposed to excel.

Moving on, I'll add that bikes have Fly, which is way more valuable than deep strike. Fly allows them to jump and charge over chaff units. It allows them to fall back and shoot their hurricane bolters while in rapid fire range. It allows them to charge flyers like Hemlock's, Fire Raptors, Flyrants and Stormravens. In an era of mass screening and tons of cheap horde units to wall off deep strike, that's far more important than natively having deep strike yourself.

With their fast movement, the bikes are also much more likely to charge than the Allarus or any would-be enemy assaulters. This is important not just for their re-rolls but because chargers strike first. The Allarus are much more likely to have to suffer through an onslaught of enemy attacks before swinging back while the bikes get first strike.

I gave the example of the army I faced that had AM blob screen with three castled SM Dev squads... your bikes are not going to be able to charge them either. They also has banner shoot on 3+ if Dev bites the dust. Soooo you can shoot them with hail of SB fire and charge chaff. He will pull models so you are out of combat then blast you. How do you deal with this scenario using the jetbikes? assume he will not remove chaff such that you can charge Devs.


"So the axes only beat the bikes in very specific niches and even then they only do it by a handful of wounds at best. That's it. They really aren't that much better even in places where they are supposed to excel."

It is kind of a big deal because units at T7 and up typically can smash Custodes in combat.

 Primark G wrote:
I gave the example of the army I faced that had AM blob screen with three castled SM Dev squads... your bikes are not going to be able to charge them either. They also has banner shoot on 3+ if Dev bites the dust. Soooo you can shoot them with hail of SB fire and charge chaff. He will pull models so you are out of combat then blast you. How do you deal with this scenario using the jetbikes? assume he will not remove chaff such that you can charge Devs.

This is easy because it's common. I'll point out your story is a bit inconsistent though because you DID charge them according to your previous post.

When facing castled devs, turbo boost T1 into LoS blocking terrain. Don't play on planet bowling ball. On T2, your aim is to move over the chaff so look for a landing zone. If there isn't one, attempt to cripple a unit sufficiently to make one for T2/T3 with hurricane bolter fire (whole Guard squads are only 10 models after all). If charging will significantly increase your proximity to the devs then go ahead and do that too but he's gonna fall back so it won't defend you from his shooting regardless.

Move and Advance your Vexila Magnifica to keep the bikes in range if anybody can't block LoS with terrain.

Likely by T2 but certainly by T3 you should have a spot to complete a landing behind the chaff line and attempt a charge against the devs. Remember, we're talking about army on army combat here so you won't have just one bike squad up here but several. You should easily be able to put 50-100 shots out on T2. Your healthiest bike squad can attempt the charge at the earliest opportunity.

Consult the resiliency chart for how survivable this is. Even with 3 Dev squads you shouldn't even lose a full unit of bikes on average (assuming they're all packing lascannons).

"So the axes only beat the bikes in very specific niches and even then they only do it by a handful of wounds at best. That's it. They really aren't that much better even in places where they are supposed to excel."

It is kind of a big deal because units at T7 and up typically can smash Custodes in combat.

Uhhh, no. There's nothing T7 that can 'smash' Custodes in combat except Magnus and Mortarion.

Also, since the bikes are faster with fly, they're more likely to get to swing first against Morty while the Allarus are gonna eat a round of combat from either Primarch first. Even worse, Magnus can just kite the Allarus indefinitely and smite them into oblivion.

3 bikes within 12" kill 13 guardsman. Cutting a hole to charge through isn't that hard.

Your suggestions are all based on the easiest of situations and you seemed to have ignored some of what I said such as the Devs shooting on 3+ when they die... they can mulch an entire squad easy. I believe you advocate all bikes 24-7 right? I advocate the use of various units including bikes but not exclusively and I can tell you that the Vexilla will never get anywhere close to the Dev castle.

On T7 -

Dreads can... fail a couple invuls there goes a bike. Redemptor can potentially clear a full squad. Deamon Prince take down a couple jetbikes easy.

" I'll point out your story is a bit inconsistent though because you DID charge them according to your previous post."

I was able to charge the chaff easy but not the Devs. May have made it in on sixth turn but it was really late at the shop so we called it after the fifth turn.

Ordana wrote:
3 bikes within 12" kill 13 guardsman. Cutting a hole to charge through isn't that hard.

Not a big blob if they are spaced out correctly.

 Primark G wrote:
Your suggestions are all based on the easiest of situations and you seemed to have ignored some of what I said such as the Devs shooting on 3+ when they die... they can mulch an entire squad easy. I believe you advocate all bikes 24-7 right? I advocate the use of various units including bikes but not exclusively and I can tell you that the Vexilla will never get anywhere close to the Dev castle.

I didn't ignore the Dev 3+. I didn't say for you to attack the devs unless you got within 12". It's largely a non-issue since they're not really dying till in close combat.

It's also the situation YOU offered as an example. You want a harder one? Offer it.

No, devs cannot mulch a squad of bikes easy. It takes 21 lascannons to drop bikes within range of the Vexilla. 3 Dev squads is like 12. You'll likely lose 1 model from 1 squad per turn and maybe a two-fer on T2 or T3. You'll be in range an fighting before significant damage unless there's other fire support

Anyway, I don't advocate the bikes 24/7. I just say the Allarus aren't worth it because the bikes do everything better or close enough to equal. Custodian Guard are great if you want a pure battalion for CP. Guard and Wardens can work if you want an immobile unit to camp an objective without allies. The Allarus just don't work in any role because they need buffs or point reductions.

Finally, I didn't say to get the Vexilla near the castle. The Vexilla is to protect any bikes on T2 that can't get into LoS blocking terrain.

On T7 -

Dreads can... fail a couple invuls there goes a bike. Redemptor can potentially clear a full squad. Deamon Prince take down a couple jetbikes easy.

Anything CAN happen, what matters is likely. A guardsman can punch an Imperial Knight to death, but is that likely? No. Dreads don't have enough volume of attacks to likely kill a bike squad. I don't even think one bike is like but I'm on the road so no maths. Daemon Princes are the same.

" I'll point out your story is a bit inconsistent though because you DID charge them according to your previous post."

I was able to charge the chaff easy but not the Devs. May have made it in on sixth turn but it was really late at the shop so we called it after the fifth turn.

Okay, my bad. I got lost there.

Ordana wrote:
3 bikes within 12" kill 13 guardsman. Cutting a hole to charge through isn't that hard.

Not a big blob if they are spaced out correctly.

 Primark G wrote:
Your suggestions are all based on the easiest of situations and you seemed to have ignored some of what I said such as the Devs shooting on 3+ when they die... they can mulch an entire squad easy. I believe you advocate all bikes 24-7 right? I advocate the use of various units including bikes but not exclusively and I can tell you that the Vexilla will never get anywhere close to the Dev castle.

On T7 -

Dreads can... fail a couple invuls there goes a bike. Redemptor can potentially clear a full squad. Deamon Prince take down a couple jetbikes easy.

" I'll point out your story is a bit inconsistent though because you DID charge them according to your previous post."

I was able to charge the chaff easy but not the Devs. May have made it in on sixth turn but it was really late at the shop so we called it after the fifth turn.

Ordana wrote:
3 bikes within 12" kill 13 guardsman. Cutting a hole to charge through isn't that hard.

Not a big blob if they are spaced out correctly.

A dread isn’t beating 3 bikers

stratigo wrote:


A dread isn’t beating 3 bikers

Yeah, getting 1.111 unsaved wounds through on average - which is a bit more likely to not even kill a bike than to do so. And the bikes in turn tear chunks out of the Dread (even worse if they got the charge and dropped the Dread's WS before it got to swing).

You are assuming best case dice for Custodes... dread hits on 3+ and wounds on 2+... fail two 4++ and the opponent rolls 5/5, 5/6, or 6/6. Redemptor fist does D6 damage. The dread might not take out the squad but can neuter them.

No, devs cannot mulch a squad of bikes easy. It takes 21 lascannons to drop bikes within range of the Vexilla.

The magical Vexilla - how is it ever getting that close to the Dev castle?

 Primark G wrote:
You are assuming best case dice for Custodes... dread hits on 3+ and wounds on 2+... fail two 4++ and the opponent rolls 5/5, 5/6, or 6/6. Redemptor fist does D6 damage. The dread might not take out the squad but can neuter them.

No, devs cannot mulch a squad of bikes easy. It takes 21 lascannons to drop bikes within range of the Vexilla.

The magical Vexilla - how is it ever getting that close to the Dev castle?

By being a character you can't target and Deepstriking next to the bikes after they advance up turn 1?

A Redemptor dread does 1.5 wounds per fight phase. it takes 3 tries for it to kill 1 bike on average. Its not going to neuter them unless your assuming 'best case dice'.

 Primark G wrote:
You are assuming best case dice for Custodes... dread hits on 3+ and wounds on 2+... fail two 4++ and the opponent rolls 5/5, 5/6, or 6/6. Redemptor fist does D6 damage. The dread might not take out the squad but can neuter them.

No, devs cannot mulch a squad of bikes easy. It takes 21 lascannons to drop bikes within range of the Vexilla.

The magical Vexilla - how is it ever getting that close to the Dev castle?

It's still like 18 even without the Vexilla, you realize that right?

And for the second time, it isn't meant to. It's for protecting the bikes on T2.

Well, considering most deployments, if you start it slightly behind the operating line and then advance it, you have a coverage of 6+d6+9" (iirc, range of the vex) distance out to the backmost bike unit. It's unlikely you're not staying within range.

It's not magic, it's just math.

What is keeping it from getting shot down? Versus say the example of a Dev castle or reaper castle the opponent will deploy as deep as possible in their DZ.

The Vexilla?

The... Character rule...?

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Well, considering most deployments, if you start it slightly behind the operating line and then advance it, you have a coverage of 6+d6+9" (iirc, range of the vex) distance out to the backmost bike unit. It's unlikely you're not staying within range.

It's not magic, it's just math.

Range is 6" but there's a strat to make it 12" if you need the extra space. So yep, you got it!

 Primark G wrote:
You are assuming best case dice for Custodes... dread hits on 3+ and wounds on 2+... fail two 4++ and the opponent rolls 5/5, 5/6, or 6/6. Redemptor fist does D6 damage. The dread might not take out the squad but can neuter them.

Errr...best case for the Custodes is they make their 4++ on whatever manages to actually hit and wound (which is 2.22222, at 4++ that's the 1.1111 getting though - which makes saving everything not that far-fetched). The Dread on average does about 3.8 damage, which means a bit more than half the time it's not even killing one bike.

And again, that's assuming it gets the charge off and isn't charged first and dropped to a worse damage bracket.

Audustum wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Well, considering most deployments, if you start it slightly behind the operating line and then advance it, you have a coverage of 6+d6+9" (iirc, range of the vex) distance out to the backmost bike unit. It's unlikely you're not staying within range.

It's not magic, it's just math.

Range is 6" but there's a strat to make it 12" if you need the extra space. So yep, you got it!

I forgot about that strat... really good but still don't know if it will guarantee you can charge the castle - will prolly come down to the deployment type and how much chaff they have.

So back to dread - 4 attacks, hits 3 times and wounds three times. You fail two saves losing a bike. These are the type of odds you should consider, not those most favorable.

 Primark G wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Well, considering most deployments, if you start it slightly behind the operating line and then advance it, you have a coverage of 6+d6+9" (iirc, range of the vex) distance out to the backmost bike unit. It's unlikely you're not staying within range.

It's not magic, it's just math.

Range is 6" but there's a strat to make it 12" if you need the extra space. So yep, you got it!

I forgot about that strat... really good but still don't know if it will guarantee you can charge the castle - will prolly come down to the deployment type and how much chaff they have.

So back to dread - 4 attacks, hits 3 times and wounds three times. You fail two saves losing a bike. These are the type of odds you should consider, not those most favorable.

Averages. not most favorable.
2.667 hits, not 3.
2.222 wounds, not 3
1.111 failed saves, not 2

 Primark G wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Well, considering most deployments, if you start it slightly behind the operating line and then advance it, you have a coverage of 6+d6+9" (iirc, range of the vex) distance out to the backmost bike unit. It's unlikely you're not staying within range.

It's not magic, it's just math.

Range is 6" but there's a strat to make it 12" if you need the extra space. So yep, you got it!

I forgot about that strat... really good but still don't know if it will guarantee you can charge the castle - will prolly come down to the deployment type and how much chaff they have.

Or, as noted, just DS an Allarus Vexilla into supporting position.

So back to dread - 4 attacks, hits 3 times and wounds three times. You fail two saves losing a bike. These are the type of odds you should consider, not those most favorable.

Funny how you admonish us to not take the more favorable outcomes, when you are doing exactly that for the Dread, It's 4 attacks hits 2.667 times, which wound 2.222 times, which gets 1.111 unsaved through for 3.889 damage inflicted on average. Yes, that means the Dread does have a pretty good chance to kill one bike - but that's hardly neutering or cleaning out the unit. And more often than not, it's not even killing a bike.

And if you want to consider unfavorable odds for the dread: with bolter fire and misercordia, 3 bikes kill the Redemptor firing into then charging more often that not (13.333 damage inflicted on average).

Yeah, there will be times when the Dread will get in and have 3 swings that get through the invul and roll 4+ on the damage and it will one shot a min bike squad and it will be a great story because of how unlikely it is. Especially when compared to the likelihood of the Dread not even killing one bike (the most common case).

"Funny how you admonish us to not take the more favorable outcomes, when you are doing exactly that for the Dread, It's 4 attacks hits 2.667 times, which wound 2.222 times, which gets 1.111 unsaved through for 3.889 damage inflicted on average."

Okay we agree on average the dread can kill one bike in melee and that is assuming there are no wounds on the squad. And yeah I do admonish you for taking the most favorable odds... it is not realistic if you are playing competitive games.

 Primark G wrote:
"Funny how you admonish us to not take the more favorable outcomes, when you are doing exactly that for the Dread, It's 4 attacks hits 2.667 times, which wound 2.222 times, which gets 1.111 unsaved through for 3.889 damage inflicted on average."

Okay we agree on average the dread can kill one bike in melee and that is assuming there are no wounds on the squad. And yeah I do admonish you for taking the most favorable odds... it is not realistic if you are playing competitive games.

On average it doesn't because the average is 3.889 damage done, which is less than the bike's 4 Wounds. That means over half the time it isn't killing a bike. That's not "most favorable", that's overall the majority case. Again, most favorable is the bikes acing their saves (and optionally the Dread whiffing more) and not taking any damage at all.

And yes, that's assuming no wounds on the bikes - and no wounds on the Dread and the Dread getting the charge so it attacks first before it gets dropped to a lower damage category.

You keep on going on about not using "most favorable" when we are giving the straight averages and you are assuming more favorable outcomes for the Dread.

You are assuming that the unit has taken no wounds prior to the melee though. AC doesn't really have the weapons to kill a dread from range.

 Primark G wrote:
You are assuming that the unit has taken no wounds prior to the melee though. AC doesn't really have the weapons to kill a dread from range.

funny how the goalposts keep moving.

Your assuming an uninjured dreadnought getting the charge on a vastly more mobile enemy.
If the bikers get the charge its a bad story. 2 bikers will knock the dread down a profile (by the slimmest of margins, granted). And thats just counting their melee attacks, not any shooting.

 Primark G wrote:
You are assuming that the unit has taken no wounds prior to the melee though. AC doesn't really have the weapons to kill a dread from range.

14" move with FLY. You are assuming that the bikes were in a position to be shot at before hand. And that the Dread hasn't taken any damage from anything itself. And that it gets to make the charge.

A dakka Redepmtor with storm bolters and rocket pod does 1.777 damage if it stands still, 1.333 if it moves. So yes, it can put some damage on before contact is made - and then the bikes most likely cripple or kill it on the charge.

In short: Yes, a Redemptor isn't something a jetbike squad can blithely ignore while it goes about it's business. But practically speaking, that Dread isn't going to be "clearing the unit" or really even "neutering" it.

3 bikes with hurricane bolters do 3.33 wounds to a redemptor at 12”. And since you want to explore possibilities beyond the average, a lucky Melta missile from another squad can easily take off a few more.
As far as losing the charge, that’s easy: back out of combat and each bike dumps 12 Bolter shots at whatever they charged last turn. In my game, I leapfrogged my bike squads (2k, I had 6 3-man squads) so units were either charging or retreating and shooting. Fly is shockingly good, especially on a unit which has the levels of offense bikes do (shooting and assault). And remember that they are functionally immune to S3 and take minimal damage up until you hit S6+ AP-2 weapons. So while the devs or dreadnought are a threat, it’s one you can overwhelm because it is the ONLY threat.

Alendrel wrote:

 Primark G wrote:

In short: Yes, a Redemptor isn't something a jetbike squad can blithely ignore while it goes about it's business. But practically speaking, that Dread isn't going to be "clearing the unit" or really even "neutering" it.

Sure it can with a D6 DMG DCCW. And if it is smacking you then you can bet there is prolly a Captain or Chaplain nearby buffing it.

Here is a good VBR to watch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6VTQ3wgtws&t=6020s

The problem with competetive Warhammer like this is that games are ending in 3 turns or less in tournaments, so a big drop in unit that spends its first turn killing chaff and its second getting into position has just wasted two thirds of the game as opposed to just under half

They are hard to shift holding objectives.

 Primark G wrote:
They are hard to shift holding objectives.

Yeah, but so are Custodian Guard and they're cheaper.

They don't do as much damage.

 Primark G wrote:
They don't do as much damage.

No they don't, but they do enough to clear and hold an objective. If your enemy has 10 life it doesn't matter if you do 11 or 10,000 damage: enemy is still just as dead.

They are less likely to than Custodian Guard and that is a fact.

 Primark G wrote:
They are less likely to than Custodian Guard and that is a fact.

By how much, though? And in fact, if you spend equal points, not equal models, are they STILL less likely?

252 gets you three Allarus with Axes.
260 gets you five Custodian Guard with Spears.

In shooting, Allarus have 3d3 additional S4 AP-3 shots if within 12", but the regular Guard get you 67% more shooting with the main weapons.

All these numbers assume Rapid Fire and Charge, but no nearby Captain.

Against GEQ...
Allarus do 6 shots, 5 hits, 10/3 wounds with both weapons, for 10/3 dead from the Grenades and 25/9 dead from Axes. Then, charging, they do 12 swings, 10 hits, 25/3 wounds. So that's 10/3+25/9+25/3, or 14.44 dead GEQ.
Guard do 10 shots, 25/3 hits, 50/9 wounds, for 125/27 dead from Spears. Then, charging, they do 15 swings, 25/2 hits, 125/12 wounds. So that's 125/27+125/12, or 15.05 dead GEQ.

Against MEQ...
Allarus do 6 shots, 5 hits, 5/2 wounds from both weapons, for 5/4 dead from Axes and 25/12 dead from Grenades. Then, charging, they do 12 swings, 10 hits, 25/3 wounds, 50/9 unsaved. So that's 5/4+25/12+50/9, or 8.89 dead MEQ.
Guard do 10 shots, 25/3 hits, 25/6 wounds, for 25/12 dead from Spears. Then, charging, they do 15 swings, 25/2 hits, 25/3 wounds, and 125/18 unsaved. So that's 25/12+125/18, or 9.02 dead MEQ.

Against TEQ...
Allarus do 6 shots, 5 hits, 5/2 wounds from both weapons, for 5/6 unsaved wounds from Axes (upped to 5/3 for 2 damage) and 5/3 for Grenades. Then, charging, they do 12 swings, 10 hits, 25/3 wounds, 25/6 unsaved, which multiplies by 2 to 25/3 damage dealt. So that's 5/3+5/3+25/3, or 11.67 wounds (not accounting for Overkill, so let's call it 10-11 in actuality).
Guard do 10 shots, 25/3 hits, 25/6 wounds, for 25/18 unsaved and 25/9 damage. Then, charging, they do 15 swings, 25/3 wounds, 50/9 unsaved, up to 100/9 damage dealt. So that's 25/9+100/9, or 13.89 wounds (not accounting for Overkill, so let's call it 12-13 wounds in actuality).

So, for 8 points more, you get:
-2 more bodies (critical for holding objectives)
-More damage against GEQs, MEQs, and TEQs (and who else will outnumber you on an objective? I don't see Leman Russes doing that often).
More wounds (15 versus 12)

And mostly only are penalized in that you lose efficiency every 3 wounds, rather than every 4.

Also at most Lascannons etc will only do 3 Wounds?

I don't think Primark G has an understanding of how math works.

The damage output is almost identical - not enough to say guard is better in this regard.

KiloFiX wrote:Also at most Lascannons etc will only do 3 Wounds?

No D6 wounds

JNAProductions wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
They are less likely to than Custodian Guard and that is a fact.

By how much, though? And in fact, if you spend equal points, not equal models, are they STILL less likely?

252 gets you three Allarus with Axes.
260 gets you five Custodian Guard with Spears.

In shooting, Allarus have 3d3 additional S4 AP-3 shots if within 12", but the regular Guard get you 67% more shooting with the main weapons.

All these numbers assume Rapid Fire and Charge, but no nearby Captain.

Against GEQ...
Allarus do 6 shots, 5 hits, 10/3 wounds with both weapons, for 10/3 dead from the Grenades and 25/9 dead from Axes. Then, charging, they do 12 swings, 10 hits, 25/3 wounds. So that's 10/3+25/9+25/3, or 14.44 dead GEQ.
Guard do 10 shots, 25/3 hits, 50/9 wounds, for 125/27 dead from Spears. Then, charging, they do 15 swings, 25/2 hits, 125/12 wounds. So that's 125/27+125/12, or 15.05 dead GEQ.

Against MEQ...
Allarus do 6 shots, 5 hits, 5/2 wounds from both weapons, for 5/4 dead from Axes and 25/12 dead from Grenades. Then, charging, they do 12 swings, 10 hits, 25/3 wounds, 50/9 unsaved. So that's 5/4+25/12+50/9, or 8.89 dead MEQ.
Guard do 10 shots, 25/3 hits, 25/6 wounds, for 25/12 dead from Spears. Then, charging, they do 15 swings, 25/2 hits, 25/3 wounds, and 125/18 unsaved. So that's 25/12+125/18, or 9.02 dead MEQ.

Against TEQ...
Allarus do 6 shots, 5 hits, 5/2 wounds from both weapons, for 5/6 unsaved wounds from Axes (upped to 5/3 for 2 damage) and 5/3 for Grenades. Then, charging, they do 12 swings, 10 hits, 25/3 wounds, 25/6 unsaved, which multiplies by 2 to 25/3 damage dealt. So that's 5/3+5/3+25/3, or 11.67 wounds (not accounting for Overkill, so let's call it 10-11 in actuality).
Guard do 10 shots, 25/3 hits, 25/6 wounds, for 25/18 unsaved and 25/9 damage. Then, charging, they do 15 swings, 25/3 wounds, 50/9 unsaved, up to 100/9 damage dealt. So that's 25/9+100/9, or 13.89 wounds (not accounting for Overkill, so let's call it 12-13 wounds in actuality).

So, for 8 points more, you get:
-2 more bodies (critical for holding objectives)
-More damage against GEQs, MEQs, and TEQs (and who else will outnumber you on an objective? I don't see Leman Russes doing that often).
More wounds (15 versus 12)

And mostly only are penalized in that you lose efficiency every 3 wounds, rather than every 4.

This is good, makes me want Guard now lol.

stratigo wrote:
I do think, if you are going pure bikers, it behooves you to take some melta missiles to soften up and kill armor. Especially leman russes.

But, obviously the best way to play is to simply have a detachment from another army with good anti tank weaponry.

Despite the math, I do think the meltas have a place. I’ve played GK enough to see the limits of mass bolter fire and relying on melee for anti-tank. It’s a gun that gives you options, and if you beat the average it can help you out a lot. The anti-flyer version is a nice bonus as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Allarus vs Guard is the same debate GK players have been having over terminators and paladins for 3 editions now. TLDR, it all comes down to how many points that extra wound and attack is worth.

No it’s all about the axes.

 Primark G wrote:
No it’s all about the axes.

Did you just miss my post? Even with axes, they do worse than Guard, point for point, against objective holders.

Axes wound T4 on 2+. Versus T8 they wound on 4+ and it is out there.

Spears wound Guardsmen and such on 2s the same as Axes, so point for point they are more efficient.

Since the average objective holder with enough bodies that you wont obliterate them in melee regardless are Guard/Cultists.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Spears wound Guardsmen and such on 2s the same as Axes, so point for point they are more efficient.

Since the average objective holder with enough bodies that you wont obliterate them in melee regardless are Guard/Cultists.

Actually, it's balanced against T4 too. I pointed this out in a prior post. Axes are AP-2 while spears/swords/lances are AP-3. 3+ AP-3 does the same average as 2+ AP-2 against T4 power armor (Marines and CSM).

So the axes are irrelevant there too.

The axes are 2pts more than the spears because they're irrelevant or marginally relevant against a huge number of targets, but are useful for fighting T7 models without burning CP on Piercing Strike.

If you really want the axes and the extra attack I'd stick with Wardens, though.

+1 to wound against everything T8, T7, and T4 isn't "marginally relevant," in my book. That's a sizable percentage of the models you'll face. I guess that they'll also have a higher probability of saving in many instances, though, so maybe it evens out a little?

You will do more damage versus objective holders with Allarus due to the grenade launcher, increasing the odds they fail morale. I also like the straight 2 dmg for axes in melee.

 Primark G wrote:
You will do more damage versus objective holders with Allarus due to the grenade launcher, increasing the odds they fail morale. I also like the straight 2 dmg for axes in melee.

Someone literally just did the math saying you were wrong.

Also, axes do d3 damage in melee, just like Spears, unless I'm missing something.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
You will do more damage versus objective holders with Allarus due to the grenade launcher, increasing the odds they fail morale. I also like the straight 2 dmg for axes in melee.

Someone literally just did the math saying you were wrong.

I don't think he cares. It's bee explained ad nauseum.

MilkmanAl wrote:
Also, axes do d3 damage in melee, just like Spears, unless I'm missing something.

Its D3, but the difference are -2 vs -3 and S6 vs S8, unless they have an invul save, rolling 2+ to wound with 1 less AP is the same damage as 3+ to wound and 1 more ap

MilkmanAl wrote:
+1 to wound against everything T8, T7, and T4 isn't "marginally relevant," in my book. That's a sizable percentage of the models you'll face. I guess that they'll also have a higher probability of saving in many instances, though, so maybe it evens out a little?

You get +16.7% damage output on the to-wound roll against T8, T6, and T4 (+33% against T7). And -16.7% damage output on the save roll against models with a 4+ or better armour save and no Invul or a weak Invul.

The axe is no better unless you're fighting units that have T4 or T6-8, and a strong Invulnerable save/weak armour save, which in practice means monsters, Terminators, Space Wolf Dreadnaughts, and non-Primaris Marine characters.

In practice the efficiency change of making a 65pt Warden 67pts or making an 82pt Allarus 84pts is way less than that caused by the tesselation problem of trying to fit an almost option-less army where your cheapest model is 52pts into any kind of round points total figure, so it's almost more of a matter of personal preference at that point. And either way it isn't really a good argument for taking Allarus over Guard.


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MilkmanAl wrote:
Also, axes do d3 damage in melee, just like Spears, unless I'm missing something.

You're missing that Primark has...shall we say...a loose connection to reality?

I don't think the termies are all bad. that said I think they might be best on characters (I am not saying the best captain is the terminator just that a terminator captain might have some uses in the right list) . a captain in allarus plate with an axe is only 22 points more then a sheild captain with guardian spear, which might not bad a bad deal for an extra wound and the ability to deep strike. as well as access to some relics that are unique to terminators.

Sorry was looking at the stats for the axe shooting... lol. I’ve been running a Shield Captain in terminator armor along with one on a jetbike, it’s been a good combination.

 Primark G wrote:
You will do more damage versus objective holders with Allarus due to the grenade launcher, increasing the odds they fail morale. I also like the straight 2 dmg for axes in melee.

Again, I literally did the math. Point for point, basic Guard do better.

3x Allarus vs. cultists

Axes - 6 shots/5 hit/3 wound - 3 dead
Grenades - 6 shots (average)/5 hit/3 wound - 3 dead
6 kills

4x Wardens vs. cultists
Spears - 8 shots/7 hit/5 wound - 5 dead
5 kills

The extra kill from Allarus makes the morale test even harder for the cultists.

In practice the efficiency change of making a 65pt Warden 67pts or making an 82pt Allarus 84pts is way less than that caused by the tesselation problem of trying to fit an almost option-less army where your cheapest model is 52pts into any kind of round points total figure, so it's almost more of a matter of personal preference at that point. And either way it isn't really a good argument for taking Allarus over Guard.

*pencils in a few units of jetbikes*

Those Cultists are either 10 man (So already dead) or next to Abigail/Iron Warriors Warlord.

I don’t run Guardians since I’m using a Vanguard detachment... I’m only concerned about comparisons between Wardens and Allarus. Plus if you look at the results for Guardians versus Allarus it’s a minimal difference - less than 1 wound.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
You will do more damage versus objective holders with Allarus due to the grenade launcher, increasing the odds they fail morale. I also like the straight 2 dmg for axes in melee.

Again, I literally did the math. Point for point, basic Guard do better.

Sometimes there is more to a battle then raw mathhammer. Mathhammer really only holds up entirely if you assuming firing lines or something. What makes Allarus Custodes cost more is their ability to deep strike. (they also gain an additional wound but the big thing is deep strike) allarus custodes aren't bad, but they're specialist. they exist to fill a specific niche role. with the stratigium you can only drop 2 units max. so if you wanna say.... drop a squad of custodes, a captain and a vexilia, you're going to need the characters in terminator armor

MilkmanAl wrote:

In practice the efficiency change of making a 65pt Warden 67pts or making an 82pt Allarus 84pts is way less than that caused by the tesselation problem of trying to fit an almost option-less army where your cheapest model is 52pts into any kind of round points total figure, so it's almost more of a matter of personal preference at that point. And either way it isn't really a good argument for taking Allarus over Guard.

*pencils in a few units of jetbikes*

...Well, yeah. On effectiveness alone if your option is to take <not jetbikes> or <jetbikes> take the jetbikes.

You don't need to drop that many units when the Bikes are doing a lot of the work though. Who cares if I am limited to how many drops I can do?

The jetbikes are great but I wouldn’t simply rely upon them. They will struggle versus certain units.

How do you guys plan on first turn charging CqC units?

Zerkers, letters, gores and stealers (just to name a few) seem like they will obliterate any custode unit they touch (see GW heat 3) without proper screening.

It seems those units alone will require allies of some sort unless there is something I'm not thinking of.

We don't take up enough board space to really prevent them from picking whatever target they want and our units are so expensive that even if they are trading 1 for 1 we are in a bad spot. Not to mention that getting charged really hurts the bikes (capts and dudes).

I saw a batrep where World Eaters shred Custodes. Lots of cheap bodies for board control seems a must.

Every competitive imperium list has 3x5 scout marine squads in it or has at least 1 8-9 man squad. Custodes are no different. You can't have 90 point bikers absorbing 1st turn charges by 7 point bloodletters. If you want to play to win, bring scouts. If you want to play to lose ... let your opponent do their 3d6 deepstrike charge into custodes.

What about guardsmen and conscripts?

Guardsmen are a great option. I like Scouts for their ability to deploy forward, which will allow your bikes to push the borders of your DZ.

 Primark G wrote:
What about guardsmen and conscripts?

Those work too, but the scouts have the added benefit of additional board control and better deep strike denial. i can see myself maybe using both options in a competitive Custodes list. Depends on the point values and detachment restrictions.

You can get two Company Commanders and three IG squads for 180 points.

 Primark G wrote:
You can get two Company Commanders and three IG squads for 180 points.

Then add the Slamguinius twins and three units of 5 scouts. After that you can pick any Custodes stuff you like (read bikes) to fill out the rest and pretend you care about fluff.

On a more serious note, I don't have any problem, at any level of competitiveness or fluff-consciousness, with Custodes rolling with AM allies. Or Marine allies for that matter. Either makes fine sense, and I don't think anyone should be held back by the notion that they somehow aren't playing their army if they aren't fielding a mono-Custodes list.

Bikes for days.

Slamguinius twins? I’ve been out of the loop with BA

 luke1705 wrote:
Slamguinius twins? I’ve been out of the loop with BA

Slamguinus is the nickname for a BA Captain with a Storm Shield and Thunder Hammer. He wounds almost everything on a 2+, including T7, thanks to Red Thirst and being S8, has a 3++ for resiliency and let's himself re-roll 1's. And there's a relic to re-roll charges and ignore overwatch.

Taking two of him is 'twins', but that's rarer. Most people seem to rely on a BA strat to let a unit roll 3D6 for a charge to get him into combat. Since you can only use it once, the other Slamguinus would be left floundering. You could split the relic and the strat, but then the one likely charge has to eat overwatch and the other is only 50/50 to make it or not.

The name is a joke on mixing Captain Smashfeather with Sanguines..

Audustum wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
Slamguinius twins? I’ve been out of the loop with BA

Slamguinus is the nickname for a BA Captain with a Storm Shield and Thunder Hammer. He wounds almost everything on a 2+, including T7, thanks to Red Thirst and being S8, has a 3++ for resiliency and let's himself re-roll 1's. And there's a relic to re-roll charges and ignore overwatch.

Taking two of him is 'twins', but that's rarer. Most people seem to rely on a BA strat to let a unit roll 3D6 for a charge to get him into combat. Since you can only use it once, the other Slamguinus would be left floundering. You could split the relic and the strat, but then the one likely charge has to eat overwatch and the other is only 50/50 to make it or not.

The name is a joke on mixing Captain Smashfeather with Sanguines..

Or you run 2 of them and throw one in turn 1 and the other turn 2. Preferably backed up by Celestine or some Eversor assassins for another T1 charge.


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bananathug wrote:
How do you guys plan on first turn charging CqC units?

Zerkers, letters, gores and stealers (just to name a few) seem like they will obliterate any custode unit they touch (see GW heat 3) without proper screening.

It seems those units alone will require allies of some sort unless there is something I'm not thinking of.

We don't take up enough board space to really prevent them from picking whatever target they want and our units are so expensive that even if they are trading 1 for 1 we are in a bad spot. Not to mention that getting charged really hurts the bikes (capts and dudes).

This is part of why some of us are saying that pure Custodes will never be a competitive force. Charge screens and deepstrike denial are essential components to any tournament list. And Custodes have neither.

Yeah, a lot of armies are missing one or the other in any quantity without allies. I'm just going to stop worrying about it. Ir you;re going to a tourney, field what you need to to do well.

In other news, if I were being a little more serious about the BA drizzle on top of my Custard cake I'd probably take Slamguinius and Mephiston (or another psyker) rather than literally the twins.

Mephiston is awesome with Wings and gives you some psychic denial in your opponent's face too.

I'll be running my banana blokes for fun mostly, either with an Inquisitor, Sisters and Assassins or some Tempestus Scions.

How do we feel about Scions with Melta filling an anti-vehicle role for Custodes? Is Plasma still the go-to?

 Dedwoods42 wrote:
Mephiston is awesome with Wings and gives you some psychic denial in your opponent's face too.

I'll be running my banana blokes for fun mostly, either with an Inquisitor, Sisters and Assassins or some Tempestus Scions.

How do we feel about Scions with Melta filling an anti-vehicle role for Custodes? Is Plasma still the go-to?

Yes plasma is still better or roughly equal to melta at 6-12", even against tanks.

The Taurox Prime is really good if you go with the Scions and I’d take plasma.

So in my quest to continue experimenting, I took a pure Custodes battalion force with the Caladius. We had 3 infantry, 2 bikes, 2 Captains and a Vexilla too. I fully acknowledge this is not an optimized force, but we're experimenting.

I went against a list of Space Marines allied to Guard. The Space Marines were Raven Guard with 2 Fire Raptors parked next to Shrike for re-rolls to all failed hits. He had other stuff too but it isn't relevant to this post.

Let me just say, you might as well paint a giant "No Custodes" sign on Fire Raptors. The Caladius actually almost killed 1 in a single volley, but with the massive amount of firepower it didn't matter. They're too fast for the Bikes to catch and 1 Fire Raptor 1 rounded the Caladius in return. The second, wounded, one still mulched Bikes.

To give some perspective, sitting next to a Chapter Master a Fire Raptor does the following damage to a Bike squad:

24 Shot Bolter (S5 AP-1): 2.37
10 Shot Medium Gun (S7 AP-2 2D): 5.93
4 Shot Lascannon (you know the stats): 4.17
Total Average: 12.47 (which is good bye minimum Bike squad).

The Fire Raptors are T7, Supersonic and have 16 wounds I believe.

Trying to hunt down two of these things without ranged firepower was an exercise in brutality.

Usually you only see one Fireraptor, that is just brutal but is it legal?

Why would it not? they are just Flyers


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PS, isnt the Caladius kinda cheap in the beta rules for PL points?

Its not a LoW?

 Primark G wrote:
Its not a LoW?

nope, just a flier.

They are bad news bears.

They will get a points change most likely.

Lol, just one fire-raptor?

There was at least one list at LVO that had 3. (psst they work even better in chaos lists).

I've played 2 games so far with my bikes and I just can't make them worth it. s6 isn't enough (even with re-rolling failed wounds). Failing charges has caused my problems (even 8" charges are a 50/50 chance) and having to succeed 3 of them with my supreme command detachment has left me out in the cold more often that I thought.

Without some charge re-rolls or s8 I'm having a hard time keeping them in my list.

What am I doing wrong?

Pure Custodes is hard versus competitive armies IMO. If someone has 2-3 FR I would focus on killing their ground units.

 Primark G wrote:
Pure Custodes is hard versus competitive armies IMO. If someone has 2-3 FR I would focus on killing their ground units.

If someone has 2-3 Fire Raptors then killing their ground units should be a breeze because they won't have many.

Exactly.

Finished assembly of mine here, need a bit more work but will be 2k of them, but also have 15 Sisters of Silence (5 of each), a pair of Rhinos and a pair of Inquisitors just about ready (love the Greyfax model).

Wondering how to use the Sisters, figure as the "other talon" they are fitting, thinking they are going to be useful against psi heavy armies, and the flamers may be useful against hordes - the rest of the time they are perhaps useful for holding objectives (e.g. follow up behind the bananananannnananaas to hold what they take while they move on)

brings more CP which is useful, one bunch of six bananananaas in deep strike, optionally with either a character of banner to drop in alongside them if the situation looks like it needs it.

The Flamers are actually terrible for hordes. Save the points and don't use them.

r Fire Raptors is only 1000pts (more like 1030?) so you need to kill 1/2 an army and if you dont those Fire Raptors will do enough damage so you cant kill the rest.

Its not hard to have a few Scouts out of LoS in cover.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Why would it not? they are just Flyers


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS, isnt the Caladius kinda cheap in the beta rules for PL points?

I actually don't have the PL for it.

Putting my thoughts on the Caladius down more, I think it has a lot of potential. The main gun is great, but the whole thing is bogged down by a lack of Power of the Machine Spirit. I have this great, flying tank that I was terrified to move anywhere because of the -1 penalty. It could use 2-4 more wounds for it's price level too.


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 Fenris-77 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Pure Custodes is hard versus competitive armies IMO. If someone has 2-3 FR I would focus on killing their ground units.

If someone has 2-3 Fire Raptors then killing their ground units should be a breeze because they won't have many.

The ones I fought we're about 362 points each. So he still had almost 1300 points for the rest. There were PLENTY of Infantry Squad bodies to keep him from getting sudden death'd.

bananathug wrote:
Lol, just one fire-raptor?

There was at least one list at LVO that had 3. (psst they work even better in chaos lists).

I've played 2 games so far with my bikes and I just can't make them worth it. s6 isn't enough (even with re-rolling failed wounds). Failing charges has caused my problems (even 8" charges are a 50/50 chance) and having to succeed 3 of them with my supreme command detachment has left me out in the cold more often that I thought.

Without some charge re-rolls or s8 I'm having a hard time keeping them in my list.

What am I doing wrong?

How are you using them? Move 14" turn one. move 14" turn 2 should not see you making 8" charges. And if he is that far back (which means the back line of his deployment zone) you can advance turn 1 instead.

The Custodes grav tanks all actually have Power of the Machine Spirit in 30k which is very powerful with 7th edition jink rule. FW is actively taking feedback from the community so we need to let them know.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I just reviewed the stats for the two grav tanks. My first pick would be the Coronus Grav Carrier since it has good ranged weapons, is more durable and is a transport. It currently clocks in at 370 points and can transport up to six Custodes. I think that it needs the following upgrades:

2+ armor save
5++ invulnerable save
Power of the Machine Spirit

Note it is T8 and has 18 wounds.

This was @ 1750 points
Vanguard
celestine
3x eversor
culexus

supreme command
3x bike captains
-warlord,5++, victor, 3+ bike

Ravenguard battalion
3x scouts
1x intercessors (SftS)
2x hell blasters (SftS)
Capt w/ jump pack
Lt w/ jump pack

vs

catchacan battalion
tank command lrbt + bc
commander w/ power fist
psycher
4x infantry
3x manticores
1x lrbt + bc
2x lrbt + gatling

tempest vang
2x tempest commanders
2x tempest command squads
ratlings

Celestine and assassins went after manticores + wrap. Hellbalsters killed one LRBT before scions + manticores removed them. Mants only got one round of shooting but damn did they make it worth it (2 eversors and 4 hellblasters in one round for 3 mants)

Captains failed 2/3 8" (so needed 7s) charges on LRBTs and ate 2-3 wounds a piece of overwatch. One captian makes it in, doesn't even degrade it. 2 LRBTs kill 2 wounded captians, charge again, eat 2 more wounds, degrade it. Fall back, one LRBT finishes him off, the other finishes celestine (after she finished the manticores). She comes back, eats overwatch, finishes wounded LRBT dies to the other 2 tanks.

She killed 3 manticores, a squad of infantry and finished a LRBT, 3 captains kill most of 1 LRBT and some scions...

If I had it to do over again I'd replace the captains with actual anti tank stuff (las-cannons on something).

Having to chase down the LRBTs left too many gaps in my lines (how the scions dropped on my hellblasters) and not being able to charge them as a unit (easier to make one charge with a re-roll than to make 3 separate charges with only one re-roll) meant I ate overwatch and then more shooting even though one of them had to fall back and couldn't shoot.

Not getting them into combat until turn 2 and then only piecemeal seems to be the deal breaker. Deploying them out of LOS and screened really reduced my ability to push up the board turn 1 and get that 4-6" charge turn 2.

It was worse against eldar (wraiths + cannons + webay = dead custodes) Ynarri reapers = dead hellblasters and there's only so much celestine can do.

I may try paring them with some grey knights (GMNDKs + strike squads) but after seeing those LRBTs for the 4th time I think my points would be better spent getting some of those in my army vs the bikes...

sounds to me then that while evryone is ohhing over the captain, if you wanna use bikes in decent numbers a actual squad is prooably the better way to do it

A squad of three jetbikes escorted by a shield captain on jetbike with a mix of missile and hurricane bolters might help versus tanks.

As much as I want to like the salvo launcher, the math says its a horrible choice. Why pay an extra 15 points to do less damage to 90% of the things your shooting at.

I find getting the bikes into melee to be a better/faster solution to most armour. The salvo launcher is useful for penetrating enemy lines (putting some damage onto a tank hiding behind the screen you're about to obliterate in melee when you're too far off to hit the tank in melee), but if you aren't playing against Guard they're not going to be able to screen well enough to make that relevant most of the time. Probably better to bring an actual gun (either by way of allies or through a Contemptor or a Caladius (assuming they get cheaper before final release, they're kind of expensive right now) than to make your premier anti-horde tool less effective.

If you don't want to grab Forge World models using FTGL to drop in a plastic Contemptor with the multi-melta isn't the worst alternative.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
As much as I want to like the salvo launcher, the math says its a horrible choice. Why pay an extra 15 points to do less damage to 90% of the things your shooting at.

the remaining 10 percent are more dangerous than the 90?

It's a bad deal, but it's the best deal a pure custodes force has access to

to me the main reason to take salvo would be to shoot flyers and honestly you can just charge most of those and take em out in melee so I just don't see the need to spend those points.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
to me the main reason to take salvo would be to shoot flyers and honestly you can just charge most of those and take em out in melee so I just don't see the need to spend those points.

You can't actually. Most vehicles survive, at full health, a charge from a min squad of bikers. With captain rerolls, you do roughly 10 wounds to a vehicle with a 3 plus toughness 7 or 8. That is russes, wave serpents, predators.

Between 3-6 biker captains you will easily kill 2 fliers a turn, still shooting all their cheap scoring units to bits with the hurricane bolters.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Between 3-6 biker captains you will easily kill 2 fliers a turn, still shooting all their cheap scoring units to bits with the hurricane bolters.

And if you wanna run something other then biker captains?

better get you some backup from AM or SM

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Flamers are actually terrible for hordes. Save the points and don't use them.

Oh aware they are not amazing, especially for the cost but five in a squad has a bit of fear factor which I like and I like the models. Likely only used occasionally or in larger (like 3k) games

Anyone had much of a play with the FW dread rules just yet? Seen a few people testing the tanks, but not the dreads.

I still can’t get past the idea that the Caladius is double the points of the Sicaran.

I really like the idea of running a Vanguard of 2 Dreads, Vexila and Terminator Captain all dropping in somewhere, but, waiting on the Galatus rules before deciding.

Throw in a bike supreme command detachment, and maybe another dread and I’d hope for around 400 points left over in a 2k list.

BrianDavion wrote:
sounds to me then that while evryone is ohhing over the captain, if you wanna use bikes in decent numbers a actual squad is prooably the better way to do it

I've been saying that for a while. 6 bike captains is near enough the same cost as 1 captain and 9 bikes and the latter is much more effective.

I'm finding it difficult to avoid settling on an outrider detachment with 2 bike captains for the dual 3++ relics and 3 units of bikes. That leaves plenty of points for screening and some dedicated anti-armor from another faction.

Yeah 800pts of IG or SM is a lot for Screens, you can even just do 3x5scout, Smash Captain and another HQ with some DC or Sgaurd if you want.

I was going to do Foot SOB

Kdash wrote:
Anyone had much of a play with the FW dread rules just yet? Seen a few people testing the tanks, but not the dreads.

I still can’t get past the idea that the Caladius is double the points of the Sicaran.

I really like the idea of running a Vanguard of 2 Dreads, Vexila and Terminator Captain all dropping in somewhere, but, waiting on the Galatus rules before deciding.

Throw in a bike supreme command detachment, and maybe another dread and I’d hope for around 400 points left over in a 2k list.

I havent played with them, but I've done the math, and basically every unit is infinitely less efficient than other, non-fw options.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

Kdash wrote:
Anyone had much of a play with the FW dread rules just yet? Seen a few people testing the tanks, but not the dreads.

I still can’t get past the idea that the Caladius is double the points of the Sicaran.

I really like the idea of running a Vanguard of 2 Dreads, Vexila and Terminator Captain all dropping in somewhere, but, waiting on the Galatus rules before deciding.

Throw in a bike supreme command detachment, and maybe another dread and I’d hope for around 400 points left over in a 2k list.

I havent played with them, but I've done the math, and basically every unit is infinitely less efficient than other, non-fw options.

Well, I guess, one can but hope that the feedback is good and the adjustments are positive!

Agreed. I think it was out of necessity, unfortunately. If they were powerful out of the box people would riot.

Just adding my thoughts after 5 games this weekend.

3 Tourney matches, 1 3k point game and 1 2k point game

I play mono faction, as that's how I like to build a army/collect. The exception is I feel AC needs an assassin. Either Vindicare or Culexus.

Also all 5 games were longways (hammer and anvil) deployment so take it for what it is. They would fair far better being much closer if standard deployment

5 Bike captians is ok, but only good for a soup detachment. Much better to take a captian or two on bike and just biker units.

No reason to use Melta missiles. AC strength is volume of shots. You need it to clear and bubble wrap so you can charge the tanks and lock them up. Even if you don't kill it on the charge, its not shooting you back so 100% worth it.

Valoris is pretty useless. No way to get him there easily besides deepstrike for CP. Only positive I can try to see is deploy him, deepstrike 2 units of bikes, and get your CP back hopefully with his once a game.

3 spear 1 shield tends to be my main units of 3-4 of them. Nice solid marching wall that's hard to break.

Termies are worthless. 99% of games people bubble wrap backfield so no way to deepstrike behind. It relies on your bikes killing guys to create the space. Even if they charge with axes and rerolls, they do crap to tanks. It many points to be considered. Better for more bikes/ basic dudes.

None of this is eye opening by any means. Most of this has been said a million times already, but I figure the more findings we have the better collected data there is for others.

Record was 2-3. Games were not a blowout by any means and very close over all. Most of the time it came to making key charges that failed, even after rerolling. Without price reduction, or useful forgeworld units ported over (that are not balls crazy pointwise) the army is just middle of the pact. Wont see it in major events, but will scare and shock the noobies of 40k when they feel they cant damage them.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
better get you some backup from AM or SM

Again, follow this to the logicl extreme and you realize taking custodes is questionable entirely

str00dles1 wrote:
Just adding my thoughts after 5 games this weekend.

3 Tourney matches, 1 3k point game and 1 2k point game

I play mono faction, as that's how I like to build a army/collect. The exception is I feel AC needs an assassin. Either Vindicare or Culexus.

Also all 5 games were longways (hammer and anvil) deployment so take it for what it is. They would fair far better being much closer if standard deployment

5 Bike captians is ok, but only good for a soup detachment. Much better to take a captian or two on bike and just biker units.

No reason to use Melta missiles. AC strength is volume of shots. You need it to clear and bubble wrap so you can charge the tanks and lock them up. Even if you don't kill it on the charge, its not shooting you back so 100% worth it.

Valoris is pretty useless. No way to get him there easily besides deepstrike for CP. Only positive I can try to see is deploy him, deepstrike 2 units of bikes, and get your CP back hopefully with his once a game.

3 spear 1 shield tends to be my main units of 3-4 of them. Nice solid marching wall that's hard to break.

Termies are worthless. 99% of games people bubble wrap backfield so no way to deepstrike behind. It relies on your bikes killing guys to create the space. Even if they charge with axes and rerolls, they do crap to tanks. It many points to be considered. Better for more bikes/ basic dudes.

None of this is eye opening by any means. Most of this has been said a million times already, but I figure the more findings we have the better collected data there is for others.

Record was 2-3. Games were not a blowout by any means and very close over all. Most of the time it came to making key charges that failed, even after rerolling. Without price reduction, or useful forgeworld units ported over (that are not balls crazy pointwise) the army is just middle of the pact. Wont see it in major events, but will scare and shock the noobies of 40k when they feel they cant damage them.

What turn were you deep striking the terminators?

stratigo wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
better get you some backup from AM or SM

Again, follow this to the logicl extreme and you realize taking custodes is questionable entirely

Not entirely fair. AM are well suited as a battery for Custodes to facilitate them, or to fill the holes the army is missing, such as long range AT. (Debatable, as they should be handling them in close range.)

A rock is not scissors, but showing up with a big rock and small scissors helps your chances against paper.

 Primark G wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:
Just adding my thoughts after 5 games this weekend.

3 Tourney matches, 1 3k point game and 1 2k point game

I play mono faction, as that's how I like to build a army/collect. The exception is I feel AC needs an assassin. Either Vindicare or Culexus.

Also all 5 games were longways (hammer and anvil) deployment so take it for what it is. They would fair far better being much closer if standard deployment

5 Bike captians is ok, but only good for a soup detachment. Much better to take a captian or two on bike and just biker units.

No reason to use Melta missiles. AC strength is volume of shots. You need it to clear and bubble wrap so you can charge the tanks and lock them up. Even if you don't kill it on the charge, its not shooting you back so 100% worth it.

Valoris is pretty useless. No way to get him there easily besides deepstrike for CP. Only positive I can try to see is deploy him, deepstrike 2 units of bikes, and get your CP back hopefully with his once a game.

3 spear 1 shield tends to be my main units of 3-4 of them. Nice solid marching wall that's hard to break.

Termies are worthless. 99% of games people bubble wrap backfield so no way to deepstrike behind. It relies on your bikes killing guys to create the space. Even if they charge with axes and rerolls, they do crap to tanks. It many points to be considered. Better for more bikes/ basic dudes.

None of this is eye opening by any means. Most of this has been said a million times already, but I figure the more findings we have the better collected data there is for others.

Record was 2-3. Games were not a blowout by any means and very close over all. Most of the time it came to making key charges that failed, even after rerolling. Without price reduction, or useful forgeworld units ported over (that are not balls crazy pointwise) the army is just middle of the pact. Wont see it in major events, but will scare and shock the noobies of 40k when they feel they cant damage them.

What turn were you deep striking the terminators?

Was dependent on my options. If they had it bubbled up first turn (4 of the 5 games) I had to wait until turn 2.

Its better spending the CP to deepstrike 1-2 bike units. That makes people worry far more then the crap terminators.

Again ,this is doing pure custodies. Ive done 10+ games with them so far playing many different armies and people and this seems to be the general consensus.

I played in a tournament and my terminators did great (came in third place with over 20 players). In one game they mulched a big unit of Plague Drones. Sometimes I did not bring them until turn 3... every game they did some work. I wasn't running pure Custodes though.

deep striking bikes is a waste IMHO they move so fast. you're better off using the CPs to deep strike infantry (wardens or guard) into important areas. even if it's just dropping sword and board guard on a objective your opponent is pushing towards to tie them up

Honestly if your running the full 10 bike squad the relic that lets you shoot when you die feels stronger than the 3++ one.

Played a game against a Death Guard list last night. He wanted to try out 80 poxwalkers, typhus, Mortarion, 3 bloat drones and a squad of plague marines, plus assorted buff characters.

I brought:

5 shield captains
9 bikes (3x3, all hurricanes)

IG Batallion (Cadian Infantry, 13 total mortar teams)

Spent basically all of my CP pre-game giving 4 shield-captains blood games because I thought the re-rolls of saves and/or to wound rolls would be nice (let’s be honest, we always hit and always re-roll those anyhow)

He got first turn but I seized! Killed literally 51 poxwalkers in the first shooting phase. Morty came up and punked a bike squad, and I was faced with a decision. Should I try to ignore Morty and take down the rest of his army, or should I go headfirst into the beast and try and go for the gusto?

I went for the gusto, and it was a little terrifying because every single shield captain and one squad of bikes went in to try and kill him. But man that T7! I was able to bring him down into his lowest bracket but not kill him. However, after surviving his return attacks (he split them and I got lucky with him not rolling well on his to wound) Morty was downed. After that, I basically routed the rest of his army, ignoring his bloat drones until the end. He conceded at the top of 4.

Post game thoughts:

Good to know that this list can deal with a primarch! Was concerned but if they can take him down, other tanks with worse/no invulns shouldn’t be too bad.

Maybe some Psyker defense would be good. Maybe an assassin or two? I could see one less shield captain being worth a Culexus.

Obsec in everything is beautiful. And later on in the game, those shield captains/bikes in general are just so hard to deal with.

Still don’t think this list is super competitive but I’m definitely going to try it out against some tougher stuff and see where it hits a wall.

Culexus is almost mandatory IMO.

Some math on shield captains vs normal bikes, breaking it down to an arbitrary 200 points:
Shield captains: 8.75 wounds, 6.25 attacks, rapid-fire 7.5 (bolters)
Bikes: 8.89 wounds, 8.89 attacks, rapid-fire 13.3 (bolters)
There is some additional durability to be gained from a shield captain’s 3++, but for me the extra volume of attacks in both shooting and melee means that if I have the points/force org to take normal bikes vs a shield captain I’ll do it every time.
On fire rapors:
A fire raptor without re-rolls does 6.5 wounds on average to them with the banner, or 1.5 dead bikes (T6, 4 wounds, 2+/4++). That’s the absolute best case, so by maximizing that (eliminate the re-rolls and/or force the -1) you can mitigate the damage down to a comfortable level. Obviously that is easier said than done.

 greyknight12 wrote:
Some math on shield captains vs normal bikes, breaking it down to an arbitrary 200 points:
Shield captains: 8.75 wounds, 6.25 attacks, rapid-fire 7.5 (bolters)
Bikes: 8.89 wounds, 8.89 attacks, rapid-fire 13.3 (bolters)
There is some additional durability to be gained from a shield captain’s 3++, but for me the extra volume of attacks in both shooting and melee means that if I have the points/force org to take normal bikes vs a shield captain I’ll do it every time.
On fire rapors:
A fire raptor without re-rolls does 6.5 wounds on average to them with the banner, or 1.5 dead bikes (T6, 4 wounds, 2+/4++). That’s the absolute best case, so by maximizing that (eliminate the re-rolls and/or force the -1) you can mitigate the damage down to a comfortable level. Obviously that is easier said than done.

Re: bikes, thanks I was thinking about this today, saves me doing numbers.

Main advantage of SC's is the character rule of course, you can easily shield a bunch of them from T1 shooting if required, so for certain army builds they are more durable. As well as fulfilling all important HQ slots/buff role of course (they're our best HQ choice). If you're going full bikes, best to use mostly squads as you've proven their huge advantage offensively.

Don't forget the likely Beta Character rules that will mean Captains cant shield other Captains.

6 Captains is about the same cost as 1 captain + 9 Bikes. While the latter is, imo, much better. It has pretty much become the basic core from which I build Custodes lists.

10 bikes just puts so much pressure on the opponent.

I’ve been doing some soul-searching regarding the vexila for -1 to hit; basically in a pure custodes list how important is the banner (especially if it’s protecting already durable units like bikes). So I worked out the percentage of damage in a single shooting phase it blocks based on BS, to see at what point a 125 pt vexila praetor “saves his points”
BS2+ : blocks 20% of incoming shooting, if your opponent can kill 625 points the banner is worth it.
BS3+ : blocks 25% of incoming shooting, if your opponent can kill 500 points the banner is worth it.
BS4+ : blocks 33% of incoming shooting, if your opponent can kill 375 points the banner is worth it.
BS5+ : blocks 50% of incoming shooting, if your opponent can kill 250 points the banner is worth it.

Obviously as BS decreases, the -1 reduces a greater percentage of shooting. The question really becomes at what point saving 1.5 bikes is better than just taking 1.5 more bikes...it’s going to depend on how long the aura is in effect and what weapons your opponent has. Note my math doesn’t include re-rolls, I’ll work those out later.

The value of aura buffs can be directly indexed to the number and cost of models covered, and indirectly indexed to the perceived target priority of the unit covered. The bikes score well on the second part (everyone wants to shoot them) and are also high per model cost. On the flip side they are fast and aren't likely to spend multiple turns getting where they need to go, and are also very durable even without the -1TH. Additionally, the vexila is likely only covering a small number of models.

Taking both sides of the argument into account I think the vexila is kinda meh for bikes. I'd rather have another bike and change. I'd be more tempted to use the vexila to cover ground pounding units that are going to spend a couple of turns getting where they need to go and taking shots while they do. That's my two cents anyway

There is also a stratagem to increase its range. I worked it out you can reliably have it for 3 turns on a good amount of your army. Not that you need to do that.

The problem is on turn 2-3 you most likely will need to split off, but you can have 2-3 turns with 6 bikes easily -1 and turn 1 all bikes -1.

For bikes the value is in turn 1 being in range for when your not going first. And you can have ~2 more units in range after movement by advancing and stringing the bikes back a little.

I can see that being worth 1 bike and change.

Oberron wrote:
/snip

I’m confused about the number of attacks you are getting. You start out comparing the cost of 5 wardens with that of 4 allarus, but then both units seem to attack as if there were just 3 of them.

Without doing the sums it seems obvious that wardens hand out more damage in melee. Their attacks are identical but they cost roughly 75% of the price of allarus. I’d expect them to do comparable damage with shooting, though to be honest neither unit is much good at that so it’s not a big deal either way.

Of course the regular bikers have better raw stats per points, but without the character rule and without the flexibility of moving off solo, they just aren't as good as taking multiple biker captains.

Granted having both captains and a biker squad is the best of both worlds. Stick em in a V formation with the rainment of sorrows on a captain who ride behind them, plus utilizing the strat that adds attacks for every guy who died makes the 10 man squad utterly devastating.


In general though, 5 biker captains at 820 points will outperform one biker squad at 900ish points, plus the captains give you a CP and relics.

The best list incorporating custodes that I've thrown together

5 Shield Captains with hurricane bolters

A Blood Angel Captain
Sanguinor
Sanguinairy preist
3 by 5 scouts

Pask in a plasmacutioner
Company commander
3 by 10 guardsmen
2 manticores

You get the beat sticks of shield captains, a slamguinious strike package with scout board presence and some heavy firepower with 10 command points

Roll with my here while my heads a stirring:

Custodes Battalion
2x Bike captains

2x 10 Custodes w/ 9 spears 1 Vexilla and 10 daggers each

1x 3 Custodes w/ spears

1x -1 to be hit Vexilla

AM Battalion

2x Company Commanders

6x 9 Infantry 1 Mortar

Considering fiddling with this idea. Using the index rules for replacement and giving the 10man squads a Vexilla and daggers each gives them a pretty terrifying amount of attacks, and could prove to be fun little death blobs.

stratigo wrote:
The best list incorporating custodes that I've thrown together

5 Shield Captains with hurricane bolters

A Blood Angel Captain
Sanguinor
Sanguinairy preist
3 by 5 scouts

Pask in a plasmacutioner
Company commander
3 by 10 guardsmen
2 manticores

You get the beat sticks of shield captains, a slamguinious strike package with scout board presence and some heavy firepower with 10 command points

Why the priest? Drop him and bring more guard or give them some toys?