Primark G wrote: I don't think a pure bike army is all that great TBH. They have S6 in melee which is okay but will struggle versus high-T enemy units.
Not really. Against an Imperial Knight 1 minimum squad of bikes should do 9.25 wounds. If they're re-rolling 1's to Hit it becomes 10.80. That's plenty enough damage in a heavy bike list to bring down T7 (fliers) and T8 (knights and tanks).
The Shield Captain on a bike should add 4.5 more wounds too. This isn't counting shooting attacks from anyone.
Yeah I wouldnt be too put off by the S6 against T7 or 8 considering that they reroll on the charge. Youre more likely to wound on a 5+ rerolling than a 4+
Primark G wrote: I don't think a pure bike army is all that great TBH. They have S6 in melee which is okay but will struggle versus high-T enemy units.
I have a similar feeling, the S6 weapons have trouble VS high tougness target and the awesome AP of the weapon is neutralized if enemy have any decent inv saves. For example, if the Captain on jetbike charging against Daemon Primarch, or even just normal LoC or even just a Hive Tyrant, assuming all 5 attacks hit, after rolling and rerolling to wound and opponent saving throw, there would be roughly on average only 1.25W goes through, even you are really luck rolling for the damage, it is only around 4W dealt on that monster, not even able drop their stats down one category.
In my mind, the Axe is the best weapon of choice, but shame jet bikers cannot take them.
I agree and I’m not saying bikes are bad, obviously they are one of the best things in the new codex. However I think that units with access to axes bring a lot of value to a competitive list.
Primark G wrote: I don't think a pure bike army is all that great TBH. They have S6 in melee which is okay but will struggle versus high-T enemy units.
I have a similar feeling, the S6 weapons have trouble VS high tougness target and the awesome AP of the weapon is neutralized if enemy have any decent inv saves. For example, if the Captain on jetbike charging against Daemon Primarch, or even just normal LoC or even just a Hive Tyrant, assuming all 5 attacks hit, after rolling and rerolling to wound and opponent saving throw, there would be roughly on average only 1.25W goes through, even you are really luck rolling for the damage, it is only around 4W dealt on that monster, not even able drop their stats down one category.
In my mind, the Axe is the best weapon of choice, but shame jet bikers cannot take them.
Can we compare math? When I do 1 minimum squad of bikes on Magnus I get 3.70 average wounds, not 1.25. Which sure, one squad of bikes isn't gonna kill him alone but that's fair: he's a ton more points than them. He's still a lot more even if you throw in a Captain.
Adding the Captain raises them to 4.3 plus 1.8 for the Captain himself so 6.1 expected melee wounds. The 4 hurricane Bolters add another 5. So about 11 wounds to Magnus expected in shooting and charging him with just one minimum squad and a Captain.
Primark G wrote: I don't think a pure bike army is all that great TBH. They have S6 in melee which is okay but will struggle versus high-T enemy units.
I have a similar feeling, the S6 weapons have trouble VS high tougness target and the awesome AP of the weapon is neutralized if enemy have any decent inv saves. For example, if the Captain on jetbike charging against Daemon Primarch, or even just normal LoC or even just a Hive Tyrant, assuming all 5 attacks hit, after rolling and rerolling to wound and opponent saving throw, there would be roughly on average only 1.25W goes through, even you are really luck rolling for the damage, it is only around 4W dealt on that monster, not even able drop their stats down one category.
In my mind, the Axe is the best weapon of choice, but shame jet bikers cannot take them.
Can we compare math? When I do 1 minimum squad of bikes on Magnus I get 3.70 average wounds, not 1.25. Which sure, one squad of bikes isn't gonna kill him alone but that's fair: he's a ton more points than them. He's still a lot more even if you throw in a Captain.
Adding the Captain raises them to 4.3 plus 1.8 for the Captain himself so 6.1 expected melee wounds. The 4 hurricane Bolters add another 5. So about 11 wounds to Magnus expected in shooting and charging him with just one minimum squad and a Captain.
I was doing math for a single Captain on Jetbike going against greater monster...... Yeah, if it is a 3 man biker squad backed by a captain charging Magnus then things are looking better.
If you wanna do pure custodes and bring some anti-highToughness a dreadnaught or two might be the cheapest option point wise. Use the deepstrike strat for them and charge asap.
The kheres vs multi-melta I think I saw a chart saying the kheres was simply better damage wise in a good amount of cases even with the damage re-roll from the MM. Even more so if the target has a decent invul save.
The 4 (or 8 if taking two) attacks of s14 -3 ap and a flat 3 damage will really hurt any high toughness target.
Compare dread vs allarus and wardens math to see. lets say t7 and t8 for the target with a 2+/4++
You get 5 wardens with castellan axes, or 4 allarus with axes and with misericordias for the price of 2 dreads Lets assume using the deepstrike/ ds strat for rapid fire range.
EDIT: Math is off will need to redo it
Spoiler:
Wardens (shooting) vs t7
6 shots is 5.04 hits which is 1.61 wounds, .52 not saved for potential 2 damage.
Total: 1.04
Wardens (shooting) vs t8
6 shots is 5.04 hits which is .81 wounds, .26 not saved for potential 2 damage.
Total: .52
Allarus (shooting) vs t7
6 shots is 5.04 hits which is 1.61 wounds, .52 not saved for potential 2 damage.
(grenade launcher) 6 shots is 5.04 hits which is 1.61 wounds .8 not saved
Total: 1.84
Allarus (shooting) vs t8
6 shots is 5.04 hits which is .81 wounds, .26 not saved for potential 2 damage.
(grenade launcher) 6 shots is 5.04 hits which is .81 wounds, .41 not saved
total: .93
Dreads (shooting) vs t7
12 shots is 8.16 hits which is 4.08 wounds 1.31 not saved
Dreads (MM) vs t7
2 shots is 1.36 hits which is .87 wounds, .44 not saved for potential 3.5
Dreads (shooting) vs t8
12 shots is 8.16 hits which is 2.61 wounds .84 not saved.
Dreads (MM) vs T8
2 shots is 1.36 hits which is .68 wounds, .34 not saved for potential 3.5
Wardens (melee) vs T7
(axe)12 attacks is 9.6 hits, 6.53 wounds, 3.26 not saved
(knife) 3 attacks is 2.52, .81 wounds, .40 not saved
Total: 6.93
Wardens (melee) vs T8
(axe)12 attacks is 9.6 hits, 4.8 wounds, 2.4 not saved
(knife) 3 attacks is 2.52, .81 wounds, .40 not saved
Total: 5.2
Allarus (melee) vs T7
(axe)12 attacks is 9.6 hits, 6.53 wounds, 3.26 not saved
(knife) 2 attacks is 1.6, .51 wounds, .26 not saved
Total: 6.78
Allaruss (melee) vs T8
(axe)12 attacks is 9.6 hits, 4.8 wounds, 2.4 not saved
(knife) 2 attacks is 1.6, .51 wounds, .26 not saved
Total:5.06
Dreads (melee) vs T7
8 attacks is 6.72 hits, 5.38 wounds, 2.69 not saved
Total: 8.07
Dreads (melee) vs T8
8 attacks is 6.72 hits, 3.36 wounds, 1.68 not saved
Total:5.04
T7 (melee +shooting)
W= 7.97,
A=8.6,
D(K)= 9.38,
D(mm)= 9.26
Winner vs T7= Dreads with Kheres assault
T8(melee+shooting)
W= 5.72
A=5.99
D(k)= 6.35
D(MM)= 6.23
Winner vs T8= Dreads with Kheres assault
(If anyone wants to check my math please do, i rounded up at .xx digits and it is possible i made a mistake somewhere, I also had to re-do wardens because I thought the misericordias weren't stock on them)
Take this for what you will.
EDIT: I dun goofed with the points of dreads vs everything else forgetting to take in the dread's weapon points into count so with 2 dreads i'm under on the other squads by 130 points. To tired to redo the math so results are off on the wardens and allerus by around 33%-66% give or take)
Primark G wrote: I don't think a pure bike army is all that great TBH. They have S6 in melee which is okay but will struggle versus high-T enemy units.
Do the math on S6 with re-rolls vs S8 with 1 less AP and notice that Against T7 3+ enemies (like tanks) the bikes actually do the tiniest bit better then axes
Against a Hive Tyrant (4+ invul) the axes are a little bit ahead but imo the bikes Fly + better movement still makes them a better option.
I'm picking up my Five boxes of Bikes this weekend, but might also pick up a box or two of Terminators. I'm still of the opinion the Terminators aren't great, but I really would love to see them work.
I think it's because we just expected them to be more durable, veteran Custodes but instead GW tried to make them character hunters...which doesn't work that great cause those Grenade Launchers are weak when most characters operate off invulnerables and consolidating doesn't help because they want to fight you in melee anyway.
I’ve had great success with my Allarus so far. In some ways they are better than the bikes. Mind you I’m using AC in an allied role and don’t really need the bikes.
Audustum wrote: I think it's because we just expected them to be more durable, veteran Custodes but instead GW tried to make them character hunters...which doesn't work that great cause those Grenade Launchers are weak when most characters operate off invulnerables and consolidating doesn't help because they want to fight you in melee anyway.
I'm not sure about that. back a few editions ago this might have been true, but in the era of command auras etc yeah year a LOT of space marine players talking about running naked captains for their command auras. I suspect a Custodes termy strike could be a serious threat to those drop in behind a squad of hell blasters supported by a captain, take some shots and then charge. make sure you draw their captain into the fray. slay the captain and finish off the hell blasters. and you've just removed a pretty potent threat.
Audustum wrote: I think it's because we just expected them to be more durable, veteran Custodes but instead GW tried to make them character hunters...which doesn't work that great cause those Grenade Launchers are weak when most characters operate off invulnerables and consolidating doesn't help because they want to fight you in melee anyway.
I'm not sure about that. back a few editions ago this might have been true, but in the era of command auras etc yeah year a LOT of space marine players talking about running naked captains for their command auras. I suspect a Custodes termy strike could be a serious threat to those drop in behind a squad of hell blasters supported by a captain, take some shots and then charge. make sure you draw their captain into the fray. slay the captain and finish off the hell blasters. and you've just removed a pretty potent threat.
8th is the Edition of bubble wrap. It's very unlikely against a competent opponent that you'll ever be able to deep strike within range to even shoot a character, let alone charge one.
Okay, so I don't know if anyone has brought this up, but I was looking through the index Custodes list to see if there was any loopholes, and I seem to have found some.
The obvious one is that you can take Custodes Guardian squads with just a sword (no shield) if you want to save points. Not super great, but if you need to shave a couple points it could be useful.
Next is the "hidden" Vexillia. Custodes Guardian squads can take wargear called a "Custodes Vexillia" carried by a normal Guardian. This will stack with the Vexillia Imperius if you want a guardian squad with +2 attacks.
Next is the Power Knife. A Shield Captain (without a Guardian spear) may be equipped with one of these. (and the way it looks, you can take a power knife instead of, or in addition to, a Misericordia). A regular power knife has two advantages over a Misericordia. First, you get the additional attack even if the Shield Captain has a storm shield. Second, it states you get an extra attack, not "attack with this weapon". With the Sword, you gain better AP and damage.
cuda1179 wrote: Okay, so I don't know if anyone has brought this up, but I was looking through the index Custodes list to see if there was any loopholes, and I seem to have found some.
The obvious one is that you can take Custodes Guardian squads with just a sword (no shield) if you want to save points. Not super great, but if you need to shave a couple points it could be useful.
Next is the "hidden" Vexillia. Custodes Guardian squads can take wargear called a "Custodes Vexillia" carried by a normal Guardian. This will stack with the Vexillia Imperius if you want a guardian squad with +2 attacks.
Next is the Power Knife. A Shield Captain (without a Guardian spear) may be equipped with one of these. (and the way it looks, you can take a power knife instead of, or in addition to, a Misericordia). A regular power knife has two advantages over a Misericordia. First, you get the additional attack even if the Shield Captain has a storm shield. Second, it states you get an extra attack, not "attack with this weapon". With the Sword, you gain better AP and damage.
You can't use the index data sheet for 'Custodian Guard' to refer to the new codex datasheet for an HQ 'Shield-Captain', they are totally different and GW's designers commentary flowchart allowing you to take index wargear options doesn't apply, as the distinction is made on the name of the datasheet, not the model.
The hidden Vexilla is correct by RAW, but Ordana is right... Also, being a 'Thay guy' is totally relevant to tactics if you don't end up getting any games.
If you can take a captain with ONLY a sword, and give him an extra sword, you're not a power gamer, you're just using a different and available loud out.
You're not going to be much of "that guy" with anything from Custodes.
Spartacus wrote: You can't use the index data sheet for 'Custodian Guard' to refer to the new codex datasheet for an HQ 'Shield-Captain', they are totally different and GW's designers commentary flowchart allowing you to take index wargear options doesn't apply, as the distinction is made on the name of the datasheet, not the model.
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Actually, it states the opposite of what you claim.
It specifically states: Use the codex version of your model's datasheet, but you can choose to use the index version for its wargear options.
As long as Codex and Index both call a model "Shield Captain" it's totally legal.
Although, it would be bending things a bit if you doubled-up and had a Shield Captian with Sword, knife, and Misericordia. That guy would have 7 attacks before being buffed.
Spartacus wrote: You can't use the index data sheet for 'Custodian Guard' to refer to the new codex datasheet for an HQ 'Shield-Captain', they are totally different and GW's designers commentary flowchart allowing you to take index wargear options doesn't apply, as the distinction is made on the name of the datasheet, not the model.
.
Actually, it states the opposite of what you claim.
It specifically states: Use the codex version of your model's datasheet, but you can choose to use the index version for its wargear options.
As long as Codex and Index both call a model "Shield Captain" it's totally legal.
Although, it would be bending things a bit if you doubled-up and had a Shield Captian with Sword, knife, and Misericordia. That guy would have 7 attacks before being buffed.
this is very much a "that guy" situation. it's blatently clear to me that the index is intended for stuff like libbys on bikes. not custodes. This is the type of thing that leads to sarcasitic GWFAQ responses people.
Spartacus wrote: You can't use the index data sheet for 'Custodian Guard' to refer to the new codex datasheet for an HQ 'Shield-Captain', they are totally different and GW's designers commentary flowchart allowing you to take index wargear options doesn't apply, as the distinction is made on the name of the datasheet, not the model.
.
Actually, it states the opposite of what you claim.
It specifically states: Use the codex version of your model's datasheet, but you can choose to use the index version for its wargear options.
As long as Codex and Index both call a model "Shield Captain" it's totally legal.
Although, it would be bending things a bit if you doubled-up and had a Shield Captian with Sword, knife, and Misericordia. That guy would have 7 attacks before being buffed.
No.... I don't think you're reading this correctly.
There is no 'Shield-Captain' datasheet in the index
"Use the codex version of your model's datasheet, but you can choose to use the index version for its wargear options".
Datasheets are what is being referred to here I.e. the index version = the index datasheet, which doesn't exist. Shield-Captains are a brand new unit from the perspective of datasheets, and just because the model shares the name with what used to be the squad leader for Custodian Guard (a totally different unit), doesn't mean you can port over all of the wargear options.
Apart from that its a flagrant abuse of the fact that GW has renamed certain items such as the Vexillas and Misericordia, which is why I think it would attract a lot of negative feedback from your potential opponents, but thats a different issue of course.
I'll fully admit that the power knife vs misericordia is gaming the rules more than a bit, although technically legal. Let's just be serious here though. Will this EVER happen? The spear or ax will always be taken on the Shield Captain, even with this minor bonus.
Taking sword-only Guardians is totally legitimate.
A Vexillia in a Guardian squad is still legitimate, despite raising eyebrows. Honestly, I built those guys back when you could have one per squad. Now that they are one-man elites, my Elites section is swamped and I have squads that are understrength. Taking one as a squad add-on helps with that. Honestly, it's really not that overpowered. It costs almost as much as a codex Vexillia, but the +1 attack bonus isn't an aura. This one totally complies with GW rules.
cuda1179 wrote: I'll fully admit that the power knife vs misericordia is gaming the rules more than a bit, although technically legal. Let's just be serious here though. Will this EVER happen? The spear or ax will always be taken on the Shield Captain, even with this minor bonus.
Taking sword-only Guardians is totally legitimate.
A Vexillia in a Guardian squad is still legitimate, despite raising eyebrows. Honestly, I built those guys back when you could have one per squad. Now that they are one-man elites, my Elites section is swamped and I have squads that are understrength. Taking one as a squad add-on helps with that. Honestly, it's really not that overpowered. It costs almost as much as a codex Vexillia, but the +1 attack bonus isn't an aura. This one totally complies with GW rules.
except the squads AREN'T under strength, they deliebratly made CG squads 3-5 man to account for this
cuda1179 wrote: I guess "under strength" was a bad term. I'm a tad OCD and I like my units to all be the same number of guys.
I actually think squads of 3 might be the better way to deploy now. If you're fielding your basic troops it's just to get more command points so you wanna keep em cheapish while still effective. so I think 3 man squads with spears is the best way.
cuda1179 wrote: I guess "under strength" was a bad term. I'm a tad OCD and I like my units to all be the same number of guys.
I actually think squads of 3 might be the better way to deploy now. If you're fielding your basic troops it's just to get more command points so you wanna keep em cheapish while still effective. so I think 3 man squads with spears is the best way.
Well.....yes and no. If you want to use a Command Point to teleport a unit of guardians deep into the enemy's lines, may as well make it worth it and use a large squad. And if you are doing that, hiding that Vexillia in the squad could be quite helpful.
cuda1179 wrote: I guess "under strength" was a bad term. I'm a tad OCD and I like my units to all be the same number of guys.
I actually think squads of 3 might be the better way to deploy now. If you're fielding your basic troops it's just to get more command points so you wanna keep em cheapish while still effective. so I think 3 man squads with spears is the best way.
Well.....yes and no. If you want to use a Command Point to teleport a unit of guardians deep into the enemy's lines, may as well make it worth it and use a large squad. And if you are doing that, hiding that Vexillia in the squad could be quite helpful.
I think If I was going to teleport a strike unit into enemy lines I'd wanna go with wardens squad. slightly more killy.
I think If I was going to teleport a strike unit into enemy lines I'd wanna go with wardens squad. slightly more killy.
or allerus termies and save on the CPs.
It kind-of depends. If you aren't running a pure custodes list you only have a 5++, and the storm shields look a lot more tempting. Wardens don't have access to them. With the Vexillia in the squad you get the same number of attacks per model, but also get to reroll moral tests and have access to storm shields.
I think If I was going to teleport a strike unit into enemy lines I'd wanna go with wardens squad. slightly more killy.
or allerus termies and save on the CPs.
It kind-of depends. If you aren't running a pure custodes list you only have a 5++, and the storm shields look a lot more tempting. Wardens don't have access to them. With the Vexillia in the squad you get the same number of attacks per model, but also get to reroll moral tests and have access to storm shields.
I also think I'd argue that the lack of a vexila in squad option in the codex means you can't put one in a squad anymore.I know I'd call shinnagens if someone tried that. we need to use some common sense in this regard. and accept that custodes as of the new codex are a totally differant beast from their index rules.
No, the Shield-Captain of the Custodian Guard squad of the Index is not the Shield-Captain of the Codex.
The first Shield-Captain was a sargeant version for the Custodian Guard that no longer exist. So theres no "index" dathasleet for Shield-Captain.
In the other hand you are right about the Vexilla, by RAW, as it is a legal equipement option for the Custidoan Guard squad. That will be FAQ'ed i'm sure.
I think If I was going to teleport a strike unit into enemy lines I'd wanna go with wardens squad. slightly more killy.
or allerus termies and save on the CPs.
It kind-of depends. If you aren't running a pure custodes list you only have a 5++, and the storm shields look a lot more tempting. Wardens don't have access to them. With the Vexillia in the squad you get the same number of attacks per model, but also get to reroll moral tests and have access to storm shields.
I also think I'd argue that the lack of a vexila in squad option in the codex means you can't put one in a squad anymore.I know I'd call shinnagens if someone tried that. we need to use some common sense in this regard. and accept that custodes as of the new codex are a totally differant beast from their index rules.
Shenanigans it may be but that's actually probably legal based on the flow chart GW released. Gotta blame the parent company for this one.
What do people think about the shield captain in allarus armor? It get access to some neat relics. Deep strike, an extra wound, and the grenade launch for 20 pts more than the normal shield captain
Oberron wrote: What do people think about the shield captain in allarus armor? It get access to some neat relics. Deep strike, an extra wound, and the grenade launch for 20 pts more than the normal shield captain
All of the shield-captains are great value, but whenever I look at the option of taking a foot captain I always end up gravitating towards all the benefits of the bike-captain instead, for only 20/40 points more.
I think If I was going to teleport a strike unit into enemy lines I'd wanna go with wardens squad. slightly more killy.
or allerus termies and save on the CPs.
It kind-of depends. If you aren't running a pure custodes list you only have a 5++, and the storm shields look a lot more tempting. Wardens don't have access to them. With the Vexillia in the squad you get the same number of attacks per model, but also get to reroll moral tests and have access to storm shields.
I also think I'd argue that the lack of a vexila in squad option in the codex means you can't put one in a squad anymore.I know I'd call shinnagens if someone tried that. we need to use some common sense in this regard. and accept that custodes as of the new codex are a totally differant beast from their index rules.
I agree with using common sense, but I think that went out the window when you can have an Eldar Autarch with a jetbike, scatter laser, laser lance, eldar missile launcher, banshee mask.
Wulfey wrote: 5 of the top 8 lists at LVO had farseers with index weapon stacks. So yeah, you can put the vexila on your custodian foot troops.
I definetly dont consider the two remotely the same.
The vexilla isn't just a weapon option that is removed because it lacks a model. Its a model that got moved to a completely separate unit.
Technically it might be legal but if it becomes a 'normal' thing I fully expect GW to change it or TO's to house rule it.
The idea behind the flowchart is to make it so that previously built and painted models aren't trash when the new codex comes out. GW doesn't want people to have to cut their models up when new rules come out (yes, some exceptions here and there but this is the general intent). Not having to cut the vexilas off your guard squads you built last year is well within the intents of the codex/index flow chart.
Wulfey wrote: The idea behind the flowchart is to make it so that previously built and painted models aren't trash when the new codex comes out. GW doesn't want people to have to cut their models up when new rules come out (yes, some exceptions here and there but this is the general intent). Not having to cut the vexilas off your guard squads you built last year is well within the intents of the codex/index flow chart.
you don't have to cut the vexila because the min squad size was reduced.
Oberron wrote: What do people think about the shield captain in allarus armor? It get access to some neat relics. Deep strike, an extra wound, and the grenade launch for 20 pts more than the normal shield captain
All of the shield-captains are great value, but whenever I look at the option of taking a foot captain I always end up gravitating towards all the benefits of the bike-captain instead, for only 20/40 points more.
It's completely legal and GW wrote the exception to specifically allow it.
No one is arguing it isn't technically legal. It doesn't have to be illegal to be a poor sporting abuse of GW's system.
And the general consensus is that it it just that. Your opposing opinion is duly noted.
If you believe you can be poor sporting by giving a custodian guard troop unit an additional attack per model, when the models themselves are never going to be used beyond a 3x3 troop tax in a Batallion, I quite literally have no idea what to tell you.
It's not even "abusing" anything. You're just playing by the rules. It's not a wound dodging nightmare blob, it's a minor increase in attacks on a worthless unit.
Your implication is silly and serves no purpose.
Edit: Better watch out for that real powergamer who spent 1300pts on 2x10 Custodes and a Vexilla in each, as well as a Vexilla next to them so he can really that guy and poor sport the heck out of everyone with those really terrifying tactical decisions he's gonna be able to make now.
Vexilla and Bullgryns for 2++ covering the advance of 3 bike-captains (1-2 can deepstrike), with a lot of scouts (3x5) for battlefield coverage and alpha strike denial, assassins and a couple BA Captains for backdoor charges and a small battalion of IG with psyker, commader and 3 squads of infantry for deepstrike requirements, strategem and extra CP.
That’s how I will field custodes during local tournament in 2 weeks...
Initialy thought about vertus praetors, but feel like abusing character targeting rules before they change them.
Wulfey wrote: The idea behind the flowchart is to make it so that previously built and painted models aren't trash when the new codex comes out. GW doesn't want people to have to cut their models up when new rules come out (yes, some exceptions here and there but this is the general intent). Not having to cut the vexilas off your guard squads you built last year is well within the intents of the codex/index flow chart.
You would not have had to do that even without the flowchart because vexilas are still a valid unit as modeled and the minimum squad size was reduced for custodian guard.
Here is what is strange. I asked this question over on the Custodes facebook group. Almost EVERYONE is saying the flowchart disallows all the old options, even the "sword without shield" option, which is the most obviously legal one of the bunch.
It's odd how two groups can see things so differently.
Oberron wrote: What do people think about the shield captain in allarus armor? It get access to some neat relics. Deep strike, an extra wound, and the grenade launch for 20 pts more than the normal shield captain
All of the shield-captains are great value, but whenever I look at the option of taking a foot captain I always end up gravitating towards all the benefits of the bike-captain instead, for only 20/40 points more.
It's completely legal and GW wrote the exception to specifically allow it.
No one is arguing it isn't technically legal. It doesn't have to be illegal to be a poor sporting abuse of GW's system.
And the general consensus is that it it just that. Your opposing opinion is duly noted.
If you believe you can be poor sporting by giving a custodian guard troop unit an additional attack per model, when the models themselves are never going to be used beyond a 3x3 troop tax in a Batallion, I quite literally have no idea what to tell you.
It's not even "abusing" anything. You're just playing by the rules. It's not a wound dodging nightmare blob, it's a minor increase in attacks on a worthless unit.
Your implication is silly and serves no purpose.
Edit: Better watch out for that real powergamer who spent 1300pts on 2x10 Custodes and a Vexilla in each, as well as a Vexilla next to them so he can really that guy and poor sport the heck out of everyone with those really terrifying tactical decisions he's gonna be able to make now.
look you can justify it via your rules lawyery crap all you like but you sir are being THAT GUY. it's patently obvious the intent behind the rules. blatently obvious the intent is to make vexilla's a stand alone unit (just like all banner carriers are now) the intent is crystal clear here
I'm not tiles lawyering anything, it's allowed. I gave you the flow chart. If anything, your arguing against it purely for emotional reasons is "that guy".
It's GARBAGE. There's no reason to do it or be concerned with it, but you can absolutely do it unless GW states otherwise in the FAQ, which they very well may.
Can we move on to another topic of actual tactical worth instead of bickering on who's the bigger jerk over 1 attack on a troop choice?
I've been considering a unit of Terminators. I pick up my 15 Bikes tomorrow, but will likely grab 1-2 boxes of terminators as well to test them. Their main draw, to me, is their Stratagem allowing them to shoot characters. Good be a decent snipe? I just still can't stomach the price.
They just previewed some new spears for 30k Custodes. I'm REALLY hoping they get 40k rules. Having a meltagun-spear on our guys would go a long way to helping us punch armor.
Cephalobeard, Crossing over into what you are thinking, if those spears do get 40k rules (and can be taken on the terminators) imagine being able to snipe characters with a meltagun, and possibly that relic grenade launcher. Just brutal.
cuda1179 wrote: They just previewed some new spears for 30k Custodes. I'm REALLY hoping they get 40k rules. Having a meltagun-spear on our guys would go a long way to helping us punch armor.
Cephalobeard, Crossing over into what you are thinking, if those spears do get 40k rules (and can be taken on the terminators) imagine being able to snipe characters with a meltagun, and possibly that relic grenade launcher. Just brutal.
I'd love it. Honestly, we really need to hear from Forgeworld about a large number of things. I'm still wanting to deep strike two Telemon.
cuda1179 wrote: Here is what is strange. I asked this question over on the Custodes facebook group. Almost EVERYONE is saying the flowchart disallows all the old options, even the "sword without shield" option, which is the most obviously legal one of the bunch.
It's odd how two groups can see things so differently.
Because you can't. Theres no Index Dathasleet for a Shield Captain. There was a sargeant option called Shield-Captain for the Custodian Guard that no longer exists. But that is NOT the same as the Shield-Captain Dathasleet of the Codex.
cuda1179 wrote: They just previewed some new spears for 30k Custodes. I'm REALLY hoping they get 40k rules. Having a meltagun-spear on our guys would go a long way to helping us punch armor.
Cephalobeard, Crossing over into what you are thinking, if those spears do get 40k rules (and can be taken on the terminators) imagine being able to snipe characters with a meltagun, and possibly that relic grenade launcher. Just brutal.
I'd love it. Honestly, we really need to hear from Forgeworld about a large number of things. I'm still wanting to deep strike two Telemon.
To be honest I think that if Custodes are in range of a tank to shoot it with Meltas they are in range to charge and kill it on meele. If Custodes had cheaper transport options to deliver those melta-lances than a Land Raider, sure, but I'm don't know.
I think "plasma" lances would be better. But thats maybe because plasma is jus better than melta, but even if it wasn't, I believe the job that melta is supposed to do, you can do it better in meele.
I'm starting to dabble in custodes a bit and am thinking I'll probably have 2 shield captains on bikes. Would you guys bother to pump both of them up to 3++ with relics and use the reroll strat on them? That's 5 CP for two rock-hard characters, but you're missing out on a lot of the other amazing strats. Not sure if that's the way to go, but it sounds fun!
MilkmanAl wrote: I'm starting to dabble in custodes a bit and am thinking I'll probably have 2 shield captains on bikes. Would you guys bother to pump both of them up to 3++ with relics and use the reroll strat on them? That's 5 CP for two rock-hard characters, but you're missing out on a lot of the other amazing strats. Not sure if that's the way to go, but it sounds fun!
Many people say that the 5+++ WT is the best one, in the Shield-Captain with the 3++ bike. But I don't know, I prefer the -1 to hit. Yeah, as a character, you want it to be protected by others, so he can't be shoot at. But actually, I prefer the idea of the Shield-Captain tanking the wounds for the squads of bikes behind him. Like a Distraction Carnifex.
Considering the bolters on their spears/axes do 2 damage a piece and with the AP -3 on the grenade launchers likely forcing a character to use their invulnerable save, I think with good rolls a squad of 4 or 5 can outright kill a character with the Inescapable Vengeance startagem or at the very least cripple them heavily. Even if they live you can still charge them to finish the job, or even if they fail the charge, you can always use a Tanglefoot Grenade on their movement phase to prevent them from fleeing too far. I think the Allarus have solid potential, even outside of character hunting they'll be the bane of your opponent's backfield given that their great anti-infantry shooting and their axes can threaten almost any heavy support your opponent has camping in their deployment, especially if you multi-charge their units if you decide to Unleash the Lions to screw with their shooting. And that's not even mentioning how tough they are and the amount of shooting it would take to totally remove them, shooting that's not going to your Vertus Praetors to let them cause even more havoc on your opponent. This way they can be good complements to the jetbikes by providing precise additional high threat pressure on your opponent's high value units through their native deep strike at the same time your jetbikes are in range to shoot/charge.
cuda1179 wrote: Here is what is strange. I asked this question over on the Custodes facebook group. Almost EVERYONE is saying the flowchart disallows all the old options, even the "sword without shield" option, which is the most obviously legal one of the bunch.
It's odd how two groups can see things so differently.
Because you can't. Theres no Index Dathasleet for a Shield Captain. There was a sargeant option called Shield-Captain for the Custodian Guard that no longer exists. But that is NOT the same as the Shield-Captain Dathasleet of the Codex.
.
I'm probably going to concede the Shield Captain argument. Not like I was going to use it anyway, and it was the most dubious point. I am surprised that the Facebook group overwhelmingly feels that guardians can't take take a sword without a shield. A few people literally said that the "legacy index options" don't allow obsolete weapons options at all I mean, WTF? what do they think it's for? I even pointed out the autocannon dreadnought and ax wielding commissar as actual GW examples.
Wulfey wrote: The idea behind the flowchart is to make it so that previously built and painted models aren't trash when the new codex comes out. GW doesn't want people to have to cut their models up when new rules come out (yes, some exceptions here and there but this is the general intent). Not having to cut the vexilas off your guard squads you built last year is well within the intents of the codex/index flow chart.
You would not have had to do that even without the flowchart because vexilas are still a valid unit as modeled and the minimum squad size was reduced for custodian guard.
Would a Vexila equipped Custodian Guard still be a Custodian Guard unit entry in the new Dex? No. It would be a Vexila holder that is a new and separate unit.
What about DSing in an Allarus Vexilus Praetor with -1 to hit bubble near the Shield Capt on bike with -1 to hit relic in front of another squad of bikes? If you want to go distraction carnifex, those guys could tank a massive amount of firepower.
To add, it really wouldn't be that much to add a supreme command detachment to an army with 3 shield captains on bikes. One with the -1 to hit relic, two others, and then using the Praetor with banner. Wouldn't be TOO points heavy but would be fantastic tankiness since the front bike would block for the rear two bikes and Praetor, being they're all characters. A -2 to hit on a tank character would neuter a bunch of armies.
So how are you guys dealing with heavy psyker forces so far? I've been trying to make a Custodes TAC list (open to allies), but I'm running into budgeting issues.
It seems I can EITHER take a Battalion of Custodes and then ally in ranged anti-armor or ally in psykers/psychic defense, but not enough points for both. I'd like to keep the majority of the army Custodes but I'm open to most any allies. So far look at Guard tanks, Imperial Knights, Grey Knights, Supreme Commands of Psykers and Ultramarine allies.
Audustum wrote: So how are you guys dealing with heavy psyker forces so far? I've been trying to make a Custodes TAC list (open to allies), but I'm running into budgeting issues.
It seems I can EITHER take a Battalion of Custodes and then ally in ranged anti-armor or ally in psykers/psychic defense, but not enough points for both. I'd like to keep the majority of the army Custodes but I'm open to most any allies. So far look at Guard tanks, Imperial Knights, Grey Knights, Supreme Commands of Psykers and Ultramarine allies.
Take a psyker Inquisitor or two, with 3 Culexus Assassin as ally, should be less than 450pts. Then those who wish to spam smite against you will hate you.
Custodes have four ways to deal with enemy psychers. There is a relic that can deny the witch, a Warlord trait that can deny the witch (with a +1 bonus), and a stratagem that can make any unit deny the witch. In addition we have that 6+ save against mortal wounds.
Custodes aren't super great at combatting psychers, but they aren't the worst at it either. They are pretty good at taking out characters, so make a beeline for the psychers and eliminate the threat.
cuda1179 wrote: Custodes have four ways to deal with enemy psychers. There is a relic that can deny the witch, a Warlord trait that can deny the witch (with a +1 bonus), and a stratagem that can make any unit deny the witch. In addition we have that 6+ save against mortal wounds.
Custodes aren't super great at combatting psychers, but they aren't the worst at it either. They are pretty good at taking out characters, so make a beeline for the psychers and eliminate the threat.
I'd argue that custodes are one of the worst just on the basis of their point expense per wound. Every wound from a smite or similar psychic ability on a custodes is way worse than pretty much any other army in the game.
cuda1179 wrote: Custodes have four ways to deal with enemy psychers. There is a relic that can deny the witch, a Warlord trait that can deny the witch (with a +1 bonus), and a stratagem that can make any unit deny the witch. In addition we have that 6+ save against mortal wounds.
Custodes aren't super great at combatting psychers, but they aren't the worst at it either. They are pretty good at taking out characters, so make a beeline for the psychers and eliminate the threat.
They appear to have been created to use alongside the other Talon, the Sisters of Silence who are reasonable on paper at shutting down enemy witches, just that for whatever reason they were not in what should have been Codex: Talons of the Emperor and the fact they are not is interesting in itself with regard to the future of Sisters of Silence (e.g. will they get their own mini-codex at some point?)
The Bananas do appear to have a few ways to shut witches down, and enough would to be able to hope they can survive one or two smites, even if it does hurt - but as created they appear to be designed to run alongside other formations, who then get that job - the way the game is now they simply don't need to be able to shut down enemy psi stuff, they can bring an ally to do that for them if they expect to need it - or can take their lumps like anyone else if they decide not to.
Of the stuff in the book I'd say the stratagem is the most useful as you don't need to use it unless you need it, the relics and warlord trait are a bit more limiting and frankly if you're facing serious smite spam stuff won't be overly useful anyway.
I wouldn't worry too much about smite-spam if you're building a custodes army now. It's been "rebalanced" enough to not be the go to army build since chapter approved beta rules dropped. Looking forward i think custodes will do fine in that regard.
I'm not worried about just Smite spam but also stuff like Death Hex and Null Zone. So the beta rules don't fix everything.
You still have a 2+ armour against stuff after that. Sure, it won't save you from a Volcano Cannon, but against most stuff, you'll still get a good save.
So after actually getting the codex and properly reading the stratagems, I realised the Vexilla teleport homer actually works on all Custodes units that can deepstrike, not just Allarus Custodes. Not sure why I originally thought that was the case.
Considering this, are Allarus the best unit to be dropping as a DS bomb? My original plan was to use 6 of them, but for that price you can get about 7.5 Wardens (with axes + daggers) or 9 and a half Custodian Guard with spears.
Compared to those options, Allarus have the best shooting (grenades + target characters stratagem), and don't cost an extra CP to teleport. Also the consolidate towards characters thing.
Wardens have the best CC output of the 3 by a good margin, and better durability than the terminators.
The large squad of Custodian Guard are probably slightly more durable most of the time, considering the extra bodies and storm shields, but you miss out on axes which is pretty crucial. They are also troops which is a bonus.
Im still tossing up between the Wardens and the Allarus.
If you can get the Vexilla Teleport Homer to work reliably, you can make a case for either Wardens or Allarus. Facing an army that has 1 or 2 annoying characters as a linchpin and want to tie up an entire backline? Go Allarus. Just want a beatstick to smash face and nothing else? Can't go wrong with Wardens. The durability is also fairly similar (4 wounds vs 3 wounds and a 6+++).
Or you can go the funny route and deep strike in a VLR (teleport homer stratagem does say any Adeptus Custodes unit) full of Wardens and go to town
Spartacus wrote: So after actually getting the codex and properly reading the stratagems, I realised the Vexilla teleport homer actually works on all Custodes units that can deepstrike, not just Allarus Custodes. Not sure why I originally thought that was the case.
Considering this, are Allarus the best unit to be dropping as a DS bomb? My original plan was to use 6 of them, but for that price you can get about 7.5 Wardens (with axes + daggers) or 9 and a half Custodian Guard with spears.
Compared to those options, Allarus have the best shooting (grenades + target characters stratagem), and don't cost an extra CP to teleport. Also the consolidate towards characters thing.
Wardens have the best CC output of the 3 by a good margin, and better durability than the terminators.
The large squad of Custodian Guard are probably slightly more durable most of the time, considering the extra bodies and storm shields, but you miss out on axes which is pretty crucial. They are also troops which is a bonus.
Im still tossing up between the Wardens and the Allarus.
What are some opinions? Whos the best DS bomb?
depends if you want to spend more CP for deepstrike or not, custodes will already be tight as is so I feel Allarus will be the better option for sake of not needing to spend more to do it. Allarus have better shooting than wardens and it really catches them up to warden's over all damage.
Allrus also has an extra wound on wardens which can balance out the 6+ fnp that wardens have.
Main thing I can see if at what point level? If its a 1500 point game I can see wardens and spend the extra cp but in 2k pts game I can see Allarus being better pick to save on CP.
Mr. Funktastic wrote: If you can get the Vexilla Teleport Homer to work reliably, you can make a case for either Wardens or Allarus. Facing an army that has 1 or 2 annoying characters as a linchpin and want to tie up an entire backline? Go Allarus. Just want a beatstick to smash face and nothing else? Can't go wrong with Wardens. The durability is also fairly similar (4 wounds vs 3 wounds and a 6+++).
Or you can go the funny route and deep strike in a VLR (teleport homer stratagem does say any Adeptus Custodes unit) full of Wardens and go to town
You won't be able to teleport in the VLR as it does not have the ability to DS through its own abilities or with "From golden light they come". But you can do it with a squad of bikes + Teleport homer
I did mean deep striking the VLR using the Vexilla Teleport Homer strat, sorry if that wasn't clear. Deep striking a Contemptor Galatus or Achillus is the dream though, even if it's just through From Golden Light They Come, that's a huge threat in your opponent's face, especially if there are also Allarus and Vertus Praetors in their faces at the same time. The threat saturation is real.
Galas wrote: What about DS'ing Dreadnoughts with the Teleport Homer stratagem, directly into meele?
Maybe right now is not that good, but in the future, if we receive the Forgeworld Dreadnoughts...
Could be done, but If I were spending 3 CP to ensure I can drop something straight into CC, I wanna be able to absolutely annihilate its target. Dreadnoughts only have 4 attacks. I hope the FW ones get some decent rules too.
depends if you want to spend more CP for deepstrike or not, custodes will already be tight as is so I feel Allarus will be the better option for sake of not needing to spend more to do it. Allarus have better shooting than wardens and it really catches them up to warden's over all damage.
Allrus also has an extra wound on wardens which can balance out the 6+ fnp that wardens have.
Main thing I can see if at what point level? If its a 1500 point game I can see wardens and spend the extra cp but in 2k pts game I can see Allarus being better pick to save on CP.
Yes I think you're right about the extra CP, every little bit helps. I usually play 2k and my regular opponents all have tasty character targets to be shot up, so will probably be going with Terminators to start with. Fact that I haven't bought any Wardens yet also helps the decision
Would like to try both eventually for sure.
Edit: Thinking about it further, I think the terminators will also be the most useful if you are forced to drop them in without the use of the Vexilla homer. The tactic with Praetorian plate is not a surefire thing. Also your Vexilla may be killed prematurely, or you might feel you need your guys to drop in a turn or 2 early to take advantage of some battlefield situation which arises. Everyone is a long shot on the charge from 9 inches, but at least the Termies have decent shooting if they can't make the charge.
Mr. Funktastic wrote: I did mean deep striking the VLR using the Vexilla Teleport Homer strat, sorry if that wasn't clear. Deep striking a Contemptor Galatus or Achillus is the dream though, even if it's just through From Golden Light They Come, that's a huge threat in your opponent's face, especially if there are also Allarus and Vertus Praetors in their faces at the same time. The threat saturation is real.
The Vexilla teleport homer strategem requires a unit that is deepstriking. It does not grant it itself.
A VLR does not have the ability to deepstrike and is not a viable target for the "From Golden Light they come" stratagem.
Going to be playing a 2k points game this thursday, im bringing everything i have for custodes and i have to laugh that it is only 19 models. Will be my first time trying out the allarus and codex. I'll post a battle report afterwards but here is my list. (ill be getting some jet bikes at a later date, i'm not a fan of how they look even though they are pretty awesome rules wise and will easily replace the dread or land raider.
6 CP 2 for Victor of the blood games on shield captain
2 for unleash the lions (if needed)
1 for from golden light for dreadnought
Battle plan is to have valoris and the 4 custode squad in the VLR, have the Allarus, dreadnought and Shield captain in DS and harrass first turn (deploying only 3 units on the table gives a pretty good chance of going first).
Do you guys think the Praetors will go up in points the next update? They're definitely the best unit in the codex, but I don't see a jetbike heavy list beating any Imperial/Chaos/Ynnari soup or any of the top lists in the current meta
PS: Ran a 1500 Vanguard yesterday against Deathwatch. Popped 3 Allarus in his backfield and used Unleash The Lions, they got 7 wounds on a Predator (by shooting) and it took two turns of shooting to take them down, which was more than enough for the bikes to arrive and clean up
Kzraahk wrote: Do you guys think the Praetors will go up in points the next update? They're definitely the best unit in the codex, but I don't see a jetbike heavy list beating any Imperial/Chaos/Ynnari soup or any of the top lists in the current meta
No, the next update is in March and Custodes only came out in late January and the Vertus Praetors in February. There won't have been enough time to gather data.
It's highly unlikely there will be any points changes to any Custodes units until the September patch. (Same reason why Craftworlds didn't get changes in Chapter Approved.)
1, thats not a very hard confirmation.
2, few if any here questioned its legality.
3, The sword only is the least important part of this discussion.
The real meat is trying to use the squad upgrade Vexilla and again, while maybe technically legal I would strongly advise against it from the spirit of the rules.
Ordana wrote: 1, thats not a very hard confirmation.
2, few if any here questioned its legality.
3, The sword only is the least important part of this discussion.
The real meat is trying to use the squad upgrade Vexilla and again, while maybe technically legal I would strongly advise against it from the spirit of the rules.
But its pretty darn important. As a 49 point custode is pretty tempting vs a 52 point custode, as the cheapest troop available to us in a pure list.
In a minimum detachment thats saving a whooping 27 points!
Hypothetically, if your main opponent was Space Marines, I'd rather have 17 sword guys than 16 spear guys. Or, alternatively, a Sword and knife guy is only one point more than a spear. Get that guy next to a Vexillia and he has 5 attacks. Not too shabby.
cuda1179 wrote: Hypothetically, if your main opponent was Space Marines, I'd rather have 17 sword guys than 16 spear guys. Or, alternatively, a Sword and knife guy is only one point more than a spear. Get that guy next to a Vexillia and he has 5 attacks. Not too shabby.
You are here ignoring the shooting of the spears. In meele, theres no difference vs SM between Sword of Spear, you are correct. But you have to have shooting in acount.
Termies drew a little bit of fire and killed chaff, but that was about it.
Bikes are, as everyone knows really good.
Valoris was more support with aura then anything. Got me a CP back that saved the life of a shield guy taking las cannon hits.
Assassin was great as I tossed her up field asap to cripple psykers and be annoying.
All in all was alright. Everything did as expected.
Thinking of dropping termie banner and using -1 to hit banner on footsloggers. Possibly still keep termies for more turn 1 charges/distraction, but also can use the points for bikes instead.
Still have 11 more bikes to build and paint, but wanting to try the 2k bike only list
I mostly intend on using my terminators to screen bike captains. Launch them into cover and hunker down, potentially unleash the lions to create a far larger screen, while they advance into the opponent.
I think If I was going to teleport a strike unit into enemy lines I'd wanna go with wardens squad. slightly more killy.
or allerus termies and save on the CPs.
It kind-of depends. If you aren't running a pure custodes list you only have a 5++, and the storm shields look a lot more tempting. Wardens don't have access to them. With the Vexillia in the squad you get the same number of attacks per model, but also get to reroll moral tests and have access to storm shields.
I also think I'd argue that the lack of a vexila in squad option in the codex means you can't put one in a squad anymore.I know I'd call shinnagens if someone tried that. we need to use some common sense in this regard. and accept that custodes as of the new codex are a totally differant beast from their index rules.
I agree with using common sense, but I think that went out the window when you can have an Eldar Autarch with a jetbike, scatter laser, laser lance, eldar missile launcher, banshee mask.
you think it went out the window because eldar players are using options they've had since literally second edition and have been kitbashing out of metal models?
Autrarchs are the poster child of why the index exception has to exist, because in a codex that talks about them being the be-all end-all of flexible wargear choices they have none.
also the autarch combination you've posted isn't even correct, half of those are vehicle weapons. if you're going to scream the sky is falling, at least get your example right instead of massive amounts of derp.
Back on the subject of Custodes: I expect it to be FAQ'd out as a special case in the upcoming FAQ, but for now the ability to take only sentinel blades on CG is correct by RAW, as is the ability to take a vexilla.
There is one element missing though: the same flowchart says to use all updated points costs and abilities from the codex, and the ability "Custodes Vexilla" is the same exact ability name that was updated on vexilus praetors, and as such would be replaced with the new version. Amusingly, this change also entirely removes the ability of the unit to buff itself or anything else with a vexilla effect, since the ability itself mandates that the buff is given "within 6" of any friendly VEXILUS PRAETORS with this vexilla" a requirement the CG squad can never meet.
So if you want to pay 20/30/50 points to reroll your morale, be my guest.
I get you guys want to run custodes as custodes, but man 300 points of 3x10 guardsmen, 2x1 company commanders, and 3x3 mortar squads in a battalion adds so much to a custodian list. It is much better if a 3d6 bloodletter bomb crashes into 45 points of guardsmen than 300 points of custodes. And a few mortars would do so much to address things hiding in non-LOS buildings (especially in ITC).
When I emailed GW about this the reply I got was (paraphrased), Yes, it's legal and we hope you are looking forward to the FAQ's being updated in March.
Cephalobeard wrote: Literally exactly that. I don't want lances up so my dolls aren't breaking in transports. They're all going down.
Had someone moan about this facing my Bretonnians a few years back, personally it was a very useful heads up for the sort of person I was facing.
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Wulfey wrote: I get you guys want to run custodes as custodes, but man 300 points of 3x10 guardsmen, 2x1 company commanders, and 3x3 mortar squads in a battalion adds so much to a custodian list. It is much better if a 3d6 bloodletter bomb crashes into 45 points of guardsmen than 300 points of custodes. And a few mortars would do so much to address things hiding in non-LOS buildings (especially in ITC).
Don't have the current IG Codex, but do have a reasonably capable IG force from 5th edition, covered in dust, have wondered on doing more or less exactly this for +3CP and to provide some basic capability to hold rear area objectives, idea is also a small unit of Sisters of Silence as well for a 3k Apoc force around a 2k Banana core - then just the IG or sisters with a slightly smaller core for conventional games.
Seems one of the main problems the bananas will have is a lack of units to actually sit on an objective, why stick a ~200 point unit thats needed in the front line on an objective thats free for the taking when a 10 man guard squad can do the same, and both with prevent an opponent claiming an objective without at least making a nominal effort.
Hadn't considered mortars, but do have six assembled (and other weapons to taste)
Custodes almost work point for point as combat units, but in a game where you have to take objectives to win ... custodes are so bad. If you running custodes just for fluff and dice and killing reasons, yea I get it. But if you are trying to defeat your opponent in a game where objectives, maelstrom, or ITC secondaries matter ... you better damn well have some allies that are numerous, fast, and/or cheap.
EDIT: next sunday I am going to a fluffier chapter approved game day. Running 1700 points of imperial defenders against 2000 points of non-imperium something. Going to put my bikes on the board like this:
CUSTODIAN Supreme Command - 3x biker HQs, 2x victor's of blood games, 2x 3++ relics SISTERS Patrol - Celestine + 1x5 bolter girls CADIAN mortar brigade: 3x company commanders 3x astropaths 6x guardsmen with mortars 3x flamer sentinels 4x mortar teams and 2x basilisk
I think this is how custodes would really run. Heroes arriving to save the imperium, not as some kind of main line army.
Approaching this from a NOVA point of view, I think running Custodes with an elite ally works fine. I just took a battalion with an Imperial Knight Crusader against against a Dark Angel plasma army and it was a huge win in Custodes favor under NOVA rules and objectives. We played the Scouring.
I'm going to experiment with other long ranged support. That's where they need the most help.
the_au wrote: Are custodian guards worth taking for the 3 CP?
It depends. I think they are but I don't really want to bring in a Guard Battalion/Brigade. If you ARE willing to bring in a cheap allied Battalion than no, probably not.
the_au wrote: Are custodian guards worth taking for the 3 CP?
It depends. I think they are but I don't really want to bring in a Guard Battalion/Brigade. If you ARE willing to bring in a cheap allied Battalion than no, probably not.
Comparing anything to the respective IG option will make it look bad.
If you're going pure Custodes, they are a must I think. Our best stratagems cost 3 CP, so to only start with 4-5 really cramps your options. Also 3++ is an amazing thing to have considering your guys cost a minimum 50 points, many people seem to be passing it off now that theres easy access to 4++, but its a significant increase in durability to mix in a few shields into each squad.
Mr. Funktastic wrote: Is the argument based on LOS targeting rules (if I can see any part of your model I can shoot you)?
Honestly I would model them with the lances down just because it makes them easier to transport
Without green stuff, it isn't actually possible to model them all with lances down. One out of three models have a lance that just can't go quite down. At least as far as I can tell. They have these flowing ribbons at their hip that drastically limit the position of the lances.
I have no idea how I'm going to transport them honestly. I'm putting them in a literal box right now.
Mr. Funktastic wrote: Is the argument based on LOS targeting rules (if I can see any part of your model I can shoot you)?
Honestly I would model them with the lances down just because it makes them easier to transport
Without green stuff, it isn't actually possible to model them all with lances down. One out of three models have a lance that just can't go quite down. At least as far as I can tell. They have these flowing ribbons at their hip that drastically limit the position of the lances.
I have no idea how I'm going to transport them honestly. I'm putting them in a literal box right now.
Correct. One out of three doesn't like going down. Just cut the arm slightly and magnetize it, ezpz
Once FW rules come out how much do you think the Custodes meta game will change? Giving us better long range anti tank, extremely durable ranged infantry horde killers, vehicle killing weapons for Guardian squads, and some different types of close combat weapons should shake things up a bit.
Wulfey wrote: Custodes almost work point for point as combat units, but in a game where you have to take objectives to win ... custodes are so bad. If you running custodes just for fluff and dice and killing reasons, yea I get it. But if you are trying to defeat your opponent in a game where objectives, maelstrom, or ITC secondaries matter ... you better damn well have some allies that are numerous, fast, and/or cheap.
EDIT: next sunday I am going to a fluffier chapter approved game day. Running 1700 points of imperial defenders against 2000 points of non-imperium something. Going to put my bikes on the board like this:
CUSTODIAN Supreme Command - 3x biker HQs, 2x victor's of blood games, 2x 3++ relics
SISTERS Patrol - Celestine + 1x5 bolter girls
CADIAN mortar brigade:
3x company commanders
3x astropaths
6x guardsmen with mortars
3x flamer sentinels
4x mortar teams and 2x basilisk
I think this is how custodes would really run. Heroes arriving to save the imperium, not as some kind of main line army.
We don't know that though. I don't think anyone yet has tried the full bike army. That might very well be worth it for objectives as they are fast and durable, can kill chaff easily and hit bigger targets hard.
This list is more IG tactics then Custodes Tactics. They don't often hang around a bunch of lowly guardsmen
If you read the fluff in the codex, they are a mainline army. Elite, but still a army.
Also you cant have 2 of the relic bikes. Your CP spending on open the vaults says different.
And its a huge waste of 4 CP to give your biker HQs a reroll to wound and save, as they naturally get a reroll to hit by their inherent ability.
cuda1179 wrote: Once FW rules come out how much do you think the Custodes meta game will change? Giving us better long range anti tank, extremely durable ranged infantry horde killers, vehicle killing weapons for Guardian squads, and some different types of close combat weapons should shake things up a bit.
I really rather not speculate on this. I see this 10000 times a day in the Facebook Custodes group.
We don't know what we are getting. It was never said so we may only get dreads and nothing else. No one knows. I could hope for most of it to transfer, but pointless to speculate with 0 details besides "they are working on it".
cuda1179 wrote: Once FW rules come out how much do you think the Custodes meta game will change? Giving us better long range anti tank, extremely durable ranged infantry horde killers, vehicle killing weapons for Guardian squads, and some different types of close combat weapons should shake things up a bit.
Impossible to know, without knowing how FW stuff is going to be. Chapter approved nuclear bombed forgeworld into the ground, so it's entirely possible the FW units will cost too much to be worth it.
@stroodles, the +1 invuln relic will also provide the shield captain with a 3++ as he is in a pure custodes detachment. Also, Victor is still worth it for captains because, lets be honest, you are ALWAYS going to use it for a failed save on a dude you're chucking into melee.
Kzraahk wrote: I'm loving the bike captain with the relic and 5+++. Dude took out two Predators, a character and his retinue all by himself
And this is why I keep saying that custodes are an allied detachment that gets fed CP to kill things. My list above is planned around something similar, with the other two bikers going in second to shoulder the mantle when the first 5+++ guy dies.
If your just using some bike captains I can see the benefit of the Victor stratagem because they will be shot at.
But if your also running a bunch of normal bikes I think it quickly loses value.
Your opponent isn't going to shoot a 3++ 7w bike with a re-roll when he can kill 2 4++ 4w bikes instead.
As for FW. I agree that there is no point until we see what we get and how their rules translate over.
I also don't see it overtake a guard detachment is pure efficiency. It will probably help a pure force tho, unless its all gak.
Kzraahk wrote: I'm loving the bike captain with the relic and 5+++. Dude took out two Predators, a character and his retinue all by himself
So I was running him with the 5+++ at first too, but I'm starting to think Radiant Mantle (-1 to Hit) actually prevents more damage to him.
Well, I'm actually running it with 6 bikes and a Vexilia Magnifica. While an extra -1 helps, the 5+ feel no pain really makes a difference. (Also coming from Death Guard, it feels weird running an HQ without FNP)
Them costing 6-8pts less than the bikes makes them entirely discountable, unfortunately.
It's an absolutely absurd margin considering how directly worse the Terminators are. They needed an extra toughness or a higher save. Even the bikes have an extra toughness, on top of 8" more movement, better shooting and stronger charges.
yeah I personally would have given the termies an extra wound and a 4++ (bringing them to 3++ in full detachment) standard for their price.
They have less mobility (other than deep strike), less wounds, and less toughness. Yes they can take the axes, but that doesn't make up for what they lack.
Cephalobeard wrote: Them costing 6-8pts less than the bikes makes them entirely discountable, unfortunately.
It's an absolutely absurd margin considering how directly worse the Terminators are. They needed an extra toughness or a higher save. Even the bikes have an extra toughness, on top of 8" more movement, better shooting and stronger charges.
See I can tell you have not read the codex that much - they are absolutely amazing if you know what you are doing.
Cephalobeard wrote: Them costing 6-8pts less than the bikes makes them entirely discountable, unfortunately.
It's an absolutely absurd margin considering how directly worse the Terminators are. They needed an extra toughness or a higher save. Even the bikes have an extra toughness, on top of 8" more movement, better shooting and stronger charges.
See I can tell you have not read the codex that much - they are absolutely amazing if you know what you are doing.
I gotta disagree, They're overcosted compared to the bike. I get the feeling your meta isn't super competitive.
The Allarus have the same number of wounds (4) as the jetbikes. Having native deep strike is a big selling point as well and they have a lot of nice stratagems associated with them. They're not the "plug and play and do it all" units Vertus Praetors are, but I think they can definitely work in any pure Custodes army as long as you know how you're using them, their shooting can threaten a lot of characters and when they don't kill outright they can charge and finish them off in CC. I also think they're a great partner to Vertus Praetors too, while the jetbikes are moving up the board the Allarus deep strike at the right moment. Right away you give your opponent multiple durable high threat units in their face they need to split their fire to try and take down. In a vacuum I don't think they're a bad unit at all. Sure the jetbikes are more point efficient, but at least for me personally spamming one good unit doesn't really appeal to me and I'd rather see some variety in an army that's already fairly limited in unit selection.
3x allarus is similar in points to Celestine and 2 gemini. I like that allarus can reliably ace a T4 character that is in 12" deepstrike range. But boy that is a lot of points to kill a 30-100 point character. Celestine can do a similar job, with less CP, and might be more durable. I struggle to see how they will kill their points if they fail their 9" charge. And the vexila teleport homer is just too expensive if you are using less than 5-6 of these guys to justify the insane cost.
Allarus can deep strike witin 6" of a vexilla and 3" from enemy units - that is powerful. They can also make enemy units not fire overwatch and lower BS/WS. S6 is alright but will really struggle versus T7/T8. While the terminators are not the end all-be all they have their place.
Allarus aren't getting shot off the table turn 1 either. That is a pretty major selling point. The enemy knows that the bikes are a major threat and will deal with them asap. Regardless how much of a threat the Allarus are, they are not dying until you set them up and make a turn.
Primark G wrote: Allarus can deep strike witin 6" of a vexilla and 3" from enemy units - that is powerful. They can also make enemy units not fire overwatch and lower BS/WS. S6 is alright but will really struggle versus T7/T8. While the terminators are not the end all-be all they have their place.
It is, but the Vexilla Teleport Homer is tricky and pricey to pull off reliably, taking Valoris can help mitigate the cost if you go pure Custodes. Also they can go to S8 if they take Castellan Axes, which they probably should since there's little reason not to. They can make up for the lower AP compared to Guardian Spears with Castellan Strike and against T7 (which is most vehicles) they're just flat out better than Spears.
I use a Vanguard detachment of Custodes to support my SM. The 5++ Vexilla is amazingly good for a mobile gunline. If the enemy should venture to close they will get smacked hard. My reference to S6 was in regard to the jetbikes. Of course you will always take axes for the Allurus.
Cephalobeard wrote: Them costing 6-8pts less than the bikes makes them entirely discountable, unfortunately.
It's an absolutely absurd margin considering how directly worse the Terminators are. They needed an extra toughness or a higher save. Even the bikes have an extra toughness, on top of 8" more movement, better shooting and stronger charges.
See I can tell you have not read the codex that much - they are absolutely amazing if you know what you are doing.
I'm not quite sure what to tell you, friend. I feel quite confident in my analysis of them. They're fine. Compared to bikes they're bad.
A niche random Stratagem bomb does not make a good unit.
My list uses a unit of them for their Stratagems, because they're alright. That does not make them better than bikes in any conceivable way, though.
Any thoughts on the bikes + cawlbots and a couple dune-crawlers?
Seems like they would provide a good bit of mobile smash f-ery to an army that struggles with mobility.
Also that's a ton of t6+, multi-wound 2+s backed by invuln saves.
Sprinkle with a cheap guard bat for CP(warloard + relic)/bubble wrap?
Better with guard gunline? Blood angels slamginius? DA black knight bikers?
I'm really interested in starting a real soup army and am struggling to figure out the shooty part (if I need one) of imperial soup.
But damn, with the relics, vets of the blood games(can I use this on more than one biker captain?) I'm looking at starting the game with 0 cp...(can't regen before game strats right?)
Primark G wrote: I use a Vanguard detachment of Custodes to support my SM. The 5++ Vexilla is amazingly good for a mobile gunline. If the enemy should venture to close they will get smacked hard. My reference to S6 was in regard to the jetbikes. Of course you will always take axes for the Allurus.
I gave you the the math earlier in this very thread. The S6 bikes do more wounds to T7/T8 than Allarus axes because they re-roll to Wound on the charge.
bananathug wrote: Any thoughts on the bikes + cawlbots and a couple dune-crawlers?
Seems like they would provide a good bit of mobile smash f-ery to an army that struggles with mobility.
Also that's a ton of t6+, multi-wound 2+s backed by invuln saves.
Sprinkle with a cheap guard bat for CP(warloard + relic)/bubble wrap?
Better with guard gunline? Blood angels slamginius? DA black knight bikers?
I'm really interested in starting a real soup army and am struggling to figure out the shooty part (if I need one) of imperial soup.
But damn, with the relics, vets of the blood games(can I use this on more than one biker captain?) I'm looking at starting the game with 0 cp...(can't regen before game strats right?)
Speaking as a Cawlstar player with 3 jetbikes that need painting ... My worry is that the biker HQs need CP and do a very similar job to Celestine. Celestine doesn't need CP and can roll with some scouts without losing big buffs. Whereas the biker HQs can only come in a supreme command if you want the +1 to invul saves and strategems (which are mandatory for viability). If the Cawlstar didn't need so damn many CP to work, yeah I could almost see it. But I think Celestine and Scouts will always do more for admech than 3x biker HQs. I will be thinking about it because I like all those models.
You’re assuming they will get the charge - it’s not a sure thing. Terminators are a perfect counter assault unit or can go on the aggressive. There are several really strong strategems that only they have access to. If you don’t think stopping several enemy units from firing overwatch is a big deal you must be a casual gamer. And here’s the thing - I never said Allarus are better.
Primark G wrote: You’re assuming they will get the charge - it’s not a sure thing. Terminators are a perfect counter assault unit or can go on the aggressive. There are several really strong strategems that only they have access to. If you don’t think stopping several enemy units from firing overwatch is a big deal you must be a casual gamer. And here’s the thing - I never said Allarus are better.
Movement 14 Bikes with Fly are INFINITELY more likely to get the charge than Allarus or most other units in this game for that matter. You forget the golden rule that the faster unit usually dictates the terms of the fight. And if you want to talk counter charging...let's look at the unit with a stratagem that actually LET'S them charge on the opponent's turn, yeah? That'd be the Bikes. The Bikes can also charge Fire Raptors, Storm Ravens and other flyers you should be seeing in competitive matches while the Allarus can just fiddle on the ground.
Let's look at 'character shooting' too. One of the things Allarus are supposed to be good at. You know how many Allarus are needed to 1 round a character with shooting? Let's use the humble and quite average Space Marine Captain as an example. For purposes of this, we'll ignore the fact that if you're fighting a good opponent you will never be able to deep strike within 12" of a vanilla captain like this:
3 Ballistus Grenade Launchers shooting at a naked Captain in Power Armor with an Iron Halo will inflict 2 wounds on average. That's it. Not even 50% of the Captain's life. The axes, even IN rapid fire range, will only inflict 2.5. A Captain has 5 wounds. That means even after you spend CP to let an Allarus unit shoot at a humble Captain, you're still not likely to actually kill the guy unless you're packing more than a minimum squad. Let's look at the costs on that, a minimum squad already costs you 252 points. The stratagem to shoot characters is 2CP on top of those points. That lowely Captain you just tried to kill? 74 points. That minimum squad of Allarus costs more than THREE TIMES the Captain, can't even kill him with shooting, and doesn't have the Fly keyword to get over his surrounding retinue.
If you take a bigger unit of Allarus you can one round the Captain, sure, but now you're looking at an even BIGGER than 3-1 ratio on points. This is not an effective method at all. Heaven forbid you actually try to shoot a Character who WANTS to fight you either; it's gonna get even worse.
FYI, if you CAN somehow shoot their Hurricane Bolters against a character, the Bikes average more damage. 3 Bikes is 36 Hurricane Bolter shots (we gave Rapid Fire to the Allarus so we'll give it to the Bikes too). 36 bolter shots is 5 damage exactly against T4 3+, which means the Bikes SHOULD kill the Captain with their guns if they can shoot him.
Conversely, the Bikes can Deep Strike if you want (From Golden Light), can jump over chaff and retinues, are better at killing higher toughness, get the same number of attacks and only cost 270 to the Allarus's 252.
Even without Deep Strike, there's no realistic danger to the Bikes from dying from T1 shooting. Without any Vexillia, it takes the following to kill a minimum unit of 3 Bikes:
324 Bolter Shots
54 Plasma Shots (27 overcharged)
16 Lascannon Shots
WITH the Vexillia Magnifica:
432 Bolter Shots
72 Plasma Shots (36 overcharged)
21 Lascannon Shots
Most lists won't be able to concentrate this much firepower on a single squad in 1 turn (just due to positioning more than anything). Even if they do, you already won if they bother. The amount of points invested by an opponent to produce any of these numbers is far and away higher than the 270 for a squad of 3 Bikes. The lascannons alone, before adding in the costs of the models actually holding them, are 400 points! So yes, the Bikes are very safe T1 despite not having Deep Strike.
Regarding Overwatch, the Bikes are perfectly safe. Those numbers are what it takes to take down Bikes with Ballistic Skill of 3+, they get positively ridiculous in size when your enemy is only hitting on a 6+.
If you want an easy way to check my math, feel free to feed it all in here and see for yourself:
If you're building competitively, you have no reason to ever take an Allarus over a Bike. Not in any scenario. The Allarus look cool and I love their look, but they're severely overcosted for what they bring to the table.
I don't think anybody is denying that Allarus are more point efficient than jetbikes or even equal, the bikes clearly give you more bang for your buck. And I don't think estimating their value is as simple as the point value of whatever character they kill. No character is equal points wise to an MSU squad of Allarus aside from Guilliman and Daemon Primarchs (which aren't exactly their ideal targets anyway). True the Captain they tried to kill is only 74 points, but what about the points values combined of all the units that was relying on the Captain's reroll aura? The value of getting rid of that aura is harder to quantify but it's still a valuable removal nonetheless. Also, while they're supposed to excel at hunting characters, don't get it twisted and thinking that's all they're supposed to be good for. At the end of the day, you're still getting a S5 T5 4W 4A 2+/4++ death squad with S8 AP-2 DD3 weapons that are haunting your opponent's backline that they still have to answer. You can use Unleash the Lions to get them to multi charge and opponent's backline and suddenly that firing line is completely useless while the rest of your army is free to do whatever they like. Or you can support the rest of your army by shutting down a scary overwatch unit (D-Scythe Wraithguards are still a thing, right?) so your jetbikes are free to charge them without worry with Concussion Grenades. As a standalone unit, nobody is denying that the jetbikes do more, but I think it might help to think of the Allarus as more of a support unit that works best in conjunction with the rest of your army that can still beat things down while also being able to take shots to the face nearly as well as the jetbikes.
If you're totally comfortable with never using Allarus and spamming jetbikes, then that's totally viable. They can obviously stand to go down a few points per model to balance them out a bit better, but all I'm saying is their value added to the table is more than just what the numbers tell you, there's the tactical aspect in using them in a way that works to consider as well.
Here is the math for three Allarus Custodians swinging against a Captain with power armor and Iron Halo. Of course first they will shoot ...
Grenade launchers - 3d3 shots on average 5-6 hits wounding 3+... let’s say six to keep the math simple. So 5 hit (BS2) and on average 3 wound. Let’s say they score 1 wound... four wounds left to go now. Next they fire their axes... 6 shots, 5 hit and 3 wound... assume one goes through for 2 more damage. Now your Captain has 2 wounds left. The Custodians charge and swing with their axes... 12 attacks hitting on 2s so on average 10 hit, that’s 10 hits on average wounding 2s so say 8 go through and 7 wound... Captain makes 3-4 saves, each attack is d3 damage - your Captain is deep sixed. If somehow your Captain survives the axes the Allarus will follow up with their Miscordiea... you probably see where this going.
Now I think the jetbikes are stellar but up against high toughness models with invulnerable saves and possibly feel no pain as well if they don’t get the charge a kill is not guaranteed. You have to clear out all the chaff first and they won’t be able to target characters in the shooting phase like Allarus. So I don’t see a pure jetbike army winning big versus top tier. As a game progressed then they will start to shine more and can stick around due to their excellent durability.
I agree in a way. The bikers are fantastic BUT only in one situation – when they charge.
One of the biggest things I found with my unit of 9 Shining Spears, is that, on the charge they destroy pretty much everything, but, after that charge they suffer. A lot. The same will be with the Custodes Bikers. If they don’t kill what they charge (or they get counter charged) they no longer get their re-rolls to wound. As a result, their damage will drop off.
You’re not going to get the charge every single time. Planning your damage output around getting the charge continuously isn’t going to see you winning competitive games.
The way I see myself going, is 2-3 bike Captains, a Termi Captain and a unit of Termis. This is a reasonably pointed plug and play supreme command detachment that offers a variety of threat and possibilities.
bananathug wrote: Any thoughts on the bikes + cawlbots and a couple dune-crawlers?
Seems like they would provide a good bit of mobile smash f-ery to an army that struggles with mobility.
Also that's a ton of t6+, multi-wound 2+s backed by invuln saves.
Sprinkle with a cheap guard bat for CP(warloard + relic)/bubble wrap?
Better with guard gunline? Blood angels slamginius? DA black knight bikers?
I'm really interested in starting a real soup army and am struggling to figure out the shooty part (if I need one) of imperial soup.
But damn, with the relics, vets of the blood games(can I use this on more than one biker captain?) I'm looking at starting the game with 0 cp...(can't regen before game strats right?)
Stuff like IG Grand Strategist and Kurov's Aquilla work before the start of the game since nothing says they need to be on the table to work.
I think the AdMech stuff is to expensive to fit in together with guard and a solid custodes force.
This list I am currently experimenting with is this.
Custodes Outrider Detachment
Shield-Captain on Dawnspear Jetbike (relic bike)
3 Vertus Praetor with Hurrican Bolters
3 Vertus Praetor with Hurrican Bolters
3 Vertus Praetor with Hurrican Bolters
Blood Angel Battalion
Captain with Jump pack(relic), Stormshield, Thunderhammer
Sanguinary Priest with Storm Bolter
5 Scouts
5 Scouts
5 Scouts
Imperium Battalion
Saint Celestine with 2 Gemini
Tempestus Prime (Warlord, Grand Strategist) with Command Rod, Kurov's Aquilla (relic)
Tempestus Prime with Power Axe, Command Rod
Culexus Assassin
5 Tempestus Scions with 2 Plasma guns, 1 Plasma Pistol
5 Tempestus Scions with 2 Plasma guns, 1 Plasma Pistol
5 Tempestus Scions with 2 Plasma guns, 1 Plasma Pistol
1999 points, 10 CP (2 spend on additional relics)
Its shooting power is limited but gets where you need it via DS while the rest of the list overwhelms the opponent with very durable targets.
Are you certain you can take the relic on your Prime in the Imperial detachment? Typically you need a pure detachment to unlock them, however it all comes down to the wording in the book, as it has been slightly less than consistent.
Just a quick head-up to anyone looking for alternate custodes models for variation. I know Ronin miniature made some custodes a while back, but do NOT do an image search for "Ronin custodes" unless you like pictures of very hairy naked men.
Cephalobeard wrote: Are you certain you can take the relic on your Prime in the Imperial detachment? Typically you need a pure detachment to unlock them, however it all comes down to the wording in the book, as it has been slightly less than consistent.
I believe every codex gives you a free relic of your warlords faction. Guard is no different.
Mr. Funktastic wrote: I don't think anybody is denying that Allarus are more point efficient than jetbikes or even equal, the bikes clearly give you more bang for your buck. And I don't think estimating their value is as simple as the point value of whatever character they kill. No character is equal points wise to an MSU squad of Allarus aside from Guilliman and Daemon Primarchs (which aren't exactly their ideal targets anyway). True the Captain they tried to kill is only 74 points, but what about the points values combined of all the units that was relying on the Captain's reroll aura? The value of getting rid of that aura is harder to quantify but it's still a valuable removal nonetheless.
In my poor post's defense, you're raising fairly different issues than the people I was originally responding to. But let's look at yours now:
We were looking at killing the Captain specifically because it was touted that is something Allarus excel at, but the reality is they're worse at it than Bikes. You want to peg a value on the aura, but if we're going that route we should acknowledge a separate truth: the Bikes can just as easily, more easily than the Allarus, kill the units that Captain was buffing and make him moot. They can do this much more easily and effectively than the Allarus can kill either the Captain or what the Captain is buffing.
Also, while they're supposed to excel at hunting characters, don't get it twisted and thinking that's all they're supposed to be good for. At the end of the day, you're still getting a S5 T5 4W 4A 2+/4++ death squad with S8 AP-2 DD3 weapons that are haunting your opponent's backline that they still have to answer.
Which you're overpaying for when you could just take a Bike for better and more effective results.
You can use Unleash the Lions to get them to multi charge and opponent's backline and suddenly that firing line is completely useless while the rest of your army is free to do whatever they like.
Well, no, they can just split fire. I wouldn't say it's useless.
And you can In Golden Light for cheaper or equal to the cost of Unleash the Lions and have a better, more effective unit in the same back line.
Or you can support the rest of your army by shutting down a scary overwatch unit (D-Scythe Wraithguards are still a thing, right?) so your jetbikes are free to charge them without worry with Concussion Grenades.
Wraith armies are pretty scarce, competitively, but you have a better option with the Bikes for D-Scythe and flamers: just ignore them. Wraithguard are T6 with 3W and a 3+. A minimum squad of Bikes drops one with Hurricane Bolters from the get-go (3.33 wounds). Then the overwatch: 4d3 S10 AP-4 1 damage. Sure this is it, right?
2.68 wounds. That's how much damage those 4 Wraithguard with D-Scythes should do. They don't even kill one bike. Then they get absolutely shredded in return with the Bikes putting out 11.12 wounds, killing 3 more models and leaving 1 survivor.
So yeah, stopping overwatch against Bikes is NOT a priority. 252 points on some Allarus AND a stratagem to prevent 2.68 wounds is not cost effective.
Also as a FYI, D-Scythes and Flamers can't Overwatch if you charge from over 8" or from behind LoS blocking cover.
As a standalone unit, nobody is denying that the jetbikes do more, but I think it might help to think of the Allarus as more of a support unit that works best in conjunction with the rest of your army that can still beat things down while also being able to take shots to the face nearly as well as the jetbikes.
The problem is they have no cost effective support. The Bikes are better than the Allarus at the Allarus's own job.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Primark G wrote: Here is the math for three Allarus Custodians swinging against a Captain with power armor and Iron Halo. Of course first they will shoot ...
Grenade launchers - 3d3 shots on average 5-6 hits wounding 3+... let’s say six to keep the math simple. So 5 hit (BS2) and on average 3 wound. Let’s say they score 1 wound... four wounds left to go now. Next they fire their axes... 6 shots, 5 hit and 3 wound... assume one goes through for 2 more damage. Now your Captain has 2 wounds left. The Custodians charge and swing with their axes... 12 attacks hitting on 2s so on average 10 hit, that’s 10 hits on average wounding 2s so say 8 go through and 7 wound... Captain makes 3-4 saves, each attack is d3 damage - your Captain is deep sixed. If somehow your Captain survives the axes the Allarus will follow up with their Miscordiea... you probably see where this going.
Your math is off. The grenades do 2.5 wounds, not 3. I showed this in a former post.
If you want to add in the Allarus charging and swinging the Captain then we can do the same for the Bikes. The Bikes will win for sure, is that even in dispute? The Bikes can take Misericordias too even!
Let's add that the Allarus probably CAN'T charge the Captain because he's protected by chaff while the Bikes can literally jump over the chaff to reach him. They're much more likely to charge him than the Allarus.
Now I think the jetbikes are stellar but up against high toughness models with invulnerable saves and possibly feel no pain as well if they don’t get the charge a kill is not guaranteed. You have to clear out all the chaff first and they won’t be able to target characters in the shooting phase like Allarus. So I don’t see a pure jetbike army winning big versus top tier.
Here's a secret: the Allarus and Bikes are about equal even when the Bikes don't charge.
Let's invent a T8 model with a 4++ and FnP Warlord Trait of 5+++. Let's simulate 2 rounds of combat for each:
Even this isn't huge though. 2.97 wound difference? And to get it you have to give up every other advantage the Bikes provide that I've exhaustively gone over in this thread?
As a game progressed then they will start to shine more and can stick around due to their excellent durability.
The Bikes are literally more durable than the Allarus. They're identical except Bikes are T6 instead of T5.
The Allarus can kill the Captain in the shooting phase then charge another unit - something your precious jetbikes cannot do. I was very generous with the math to help the durability of the Captain... arguing 2.5 versus 3 is dumb.
Primark G wrote: The Allarus can kill the Captain in the shooting phase then charge another unit - something your precious jetbikes cannot do. I was very generous with the math to help the durability of the Captain... arguing 2.5 versus 3 is dumb.
Can=/=probably will. The math shows that no, on average they fail to kill the captain. If I grab Anydice to math out the probability of him dying...
Okay, chances of doing wounds in shooting are as follows, assuming 2 shots on the grenades each and in range (including Rapid Fire) for everything.
So they've got about a 1/4 chance of one-shotting the Captain in shooting. Not bad... But when you're paying 2 CP and 3-4 times his points cost, not good.
Often a character has already suffered some wounds so there is that - my point is if they are close enough to shoot they are also close enough to charge so it really doesn't matter unless they do snuff him in the shooting coz then they can go charge another enemy unit.
Primark G wrote: Often a character has already suffered some wounds so there is that - my point is if they are close enough to shoot they are also close enough to charge so it really doesn't matter unless they do snuff him in the shooting coz then they can go charge another enemy unit.
In a Custodes list, how else will the character have suffered wounds? The only snipers we have are Allarus, and that's a Stratagem, meaning it's once per turn. If the character is exposed, then the bikes can shoot him just as well as the Allarus can, and they do, assuming a min squad in rapid fire range, the following wounds...
I'm starting to feel despite showing evidence you're not going to allow your emotional attachment to the terminators let you admit they're worse than the Bikes, Primary.
I'm still trying to figure out how the captain is not only within 12" despite having to deepstrike 9" away from the unit the captain is hiding behind but he is also somehow already wounded.
Primark G wrote: It could well be from a Vindicare and I use them often. It could be from other units as well if your army is entirely composed of Custodian units.
Okay, Soup is a possibility. But at that point, a couple extra Vindicares are FAR more effective at killing characters than Allarus are, since they don't need 2 CP to even shoot them, can hit them from almost the entire board away, and more reliably do damage what with ignoring invulns.
And again-if someone else in your army can shoot the Captain, he's exposed. If he's exposed, 3 Vertus Praetors do way more damage more reliably than 3 Allarus.
Not necessarily to readily discount the advantage of the Allarus to easily. And there are many other types of characters besides your Captain. Sorry but I don't agree with your logic.
I see Allarus as tough dudes with a big target on their heads, so that they can soak up fire that would otherwise be hurting our awesome bikes.
As others have pointed out, if I wanted to snipe out a character, I would bring assassins which I believe do it more efficiently without getting their hands dirty. I'll do it if my opponent makes a mistake of course, but I don't expect them to from the get go
Primark G wrote: Not necessarily to readily discount the advantage of the Allarus to easily. And there are many other types of characters besides your Captain. Sorry but I don't agree with your logic.
And no matter what, they're not going to be effective in taking them out. First off, even basic screening means you're 12" or more away, meaning you get 1 shot per Allarus, second off, it costs 2 CP to do this, and third off, it costs well over 200 points to do this.
Hell, let's look at a Commissar. (They have a 4+ armor and 4 wounds, right?)
While they have much better odds of killing him (83.79%) there's still a decent chance of failure, and he's how many points to your investment?
Plus, he's guard. They have screens. If we drop it to outside of 12", you have...
Slightly over a 30% chance. (30.99%)
So please, name a character who is both worth the investment to kill AND capable of being killed in anything approaching a timely fashion.
Primark G wrote: They will kill a commissar dead one round of shooting. Their guns do d3 damage and reduce armor saves. Did you know that?
You didn't answer his question. He gave you the math on it: 83% ish from within 12" and 30% ish from beyond 12. You're very likely to be forced to land more than 12" away when fighting AM. Infantry blobs, screens, chaff, all that stuff will block your deep strike.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kzraahk wrote: I see Allarus as tough dudes with a big target on their heads, so that they can soak up fire that would otherwise be hurting our awesome bikes.
As others have pointed out, if I wanted to snipe out a character, I would bring assassins which I believe do it more efficiently without getting their hands dirty. I'll do it if my opponent makes a mistake of course, but I don't expect them to from the get go
I'd be O.K. with that if the Bikes weren't better at soaking fire than the Allarus. You're better off just buying more points of Bikes.
Here's the start of my official campaign: Allarus need another wound. Also, Ballistus should be S5.
We're trying to help you. Slamming a fist down and announcing "I don't see it!" in a sea of math and counterpoints is not a valid position. We may need to move on to a separate topic, at this point.
I really want to get a few games in 1st, my Meta is not Net lists, but will run really strong lists that can compete against net lists. Exmaple, our BA player was playing 3 Storm Ravens before they were nerf along with DC and Sguard, 1 smash captain, now he is playing 2 Smash Captains and put extra guys in his Sguard and DC units (he was playing 5man each now 10man each). Eldar using Ynnari with Shiny Spears and Dark Reapers, but he doesnt spam them, just 1 unit of 10 each, WS's, rangers, and Characters.
Its very fun! But IDK if i want more Scouts like 2 units or 3 units, IDK if i want 1 Culexus or 2, and IDK if i want a Vindicare, i feel they need to be played in 2's as 1 doesnt do enough, so i'm not sure if i want 2.
I also have a Xiphon Pattern i might put in, they are costly tho.
Edit: I might add Smash Captain myself (another HQ) with 3 scouts and Culexus as my 1st test. This will also give me 3 more CP.
I go on experience versus mathammer. I am also running a mix of SM and AC. Like I have said I have nothing bad to say about the jetbikes but the terminators have done very well for me every game. I am sure you will figure it all out.
The terms would be competitive if they came with the 4++ every other cata term armor came with (for3 ++ with the detachment benefit), other than that, they only really got DS and the ability to take axes
For pure or mostly pure Custodes, how does everyone envisage taking on some of the big scary Daemon primarchs and such?
As it stands we have no access to mortal wounds or ability to modify their invulnerable saves. The high T and W is not an issue on its own but considering the mobility and damage they can do to an army like Custodes, you wanna make sure you can kill one of these things quickly once it crashes into your line. I am particularly afraid of Mortarion, who deletes anything he hits in CC and will be dealing plentiful MW's to your whole Custodes blob each fight phase until you can bring him down. He pops more MW again when he finally goes down.
Based on a bit of quick head maths a unit of Castellan axes will do about 7-8 wounds to a Mortarion/Magnus on the charge, so won't be able to do it on their own (assuming 5 axes, no rerolls but no Miasma of Pestillence/Fab-glam of Tzeench). Most armies can shoot a Daemon Primarch half to death before they hit so the job isn't so hard, but we aren't so lucky with our options there.
Spartacus wrote: For pure or mostly pure Custodes, how does everyone envisage taking on some of the big scary Daemon primarchs and such?
As it stands we have no access to mortal wounds or ability to modify their invulnerable saves. The high T and W is not an issue on its own but considering the mobility and damage they can do to an army like Custodes, you wanna make sure you can kill one of these things quickly once it crashes into your line. I am particularly afraid of Mortarion, who deletes anything he hits in CC and will be dealing plentiful MW's to your whole Custodes blob each fight phase until you can bring him down. He pops more MW again when he finally goes down.
Based on a bit of quick head maths a unit of Castellan axes will do about 7-8 wounds to a Mortarion/Magnus on the charge, so won't be able to do it on their own (assuming 5 axes, no rerolls but no Miasma of Pestillence/Fab-glam of Tzeench). Most armies can shoot a Daemon Primarch half to death before they hit so the job isn't so hard, but we aren't so lucky with our options there.
Any takes?
There's not good options for either of them in pure Custodes. If you're trying to spam command points, you can always just take a Super-Heavy Auxiliary detachment and bring in Rowboat. He can put one down in melee fairly comfortable (and still let your Custodes re-roll 1's to Hit like a Captain!). Culexi help with Magnus. Mort's just a pain train though. Best strat for a pure force against him is to kite with Bikes and Hurricane Bolters. Just keep any psykers from Warp Timing him.
If you must fight them, remember they have the same weaknesses as us: mortal wounds and weight of dice.
Wardens, Bikes, and Allarus (assuming Wardens and Allarus have axes) all deal with Daemon primarchs just fine, there a threat, but since most people tend to over extend with someone like Morty he is pretty easily dealt with.
Primark G wrote: I played against Smash Bros last night and killed both of them by turn 3.
Thats cool, care to elaborate?
I pretty much castled everything behind a big wall to hide sitting on my objective, there was only two. He has to bum rush me or at best he can tie. I go first and get my psychic buffs up. BTW half my army is in deep strike reserve. My scouts pop out of a building and I use Hellfire scoring 3 mortal wounds on Magnus - he moves up.
Next turn I drop in my Cullexus as a speed bump and he has to deal with it. My Inceptors also come in and but a really big hurt on Magnus. He moves up again but the way I’m deployed he can’t engage much of my army... so he goes for Cullexus and my Redemptor which is what I wanted. Both die but he can’t consolidate into any of my units - Magnus is just sitting there. Third turn I bring in the rest of my reserves - I am able to cast NZ then deep 6 Magnus in the shooting phase. It goes worse for him from there on.
There's not good options for either of them in pure Custodes. If you're trying to spam command points, you can always just take a Super-Heavy Auxiliary detachment and bring in Rowboat. He can put one down in melee fairly comfortable (and still let your Custodes re-roll 1's to Hit like a Captain!). Culexi help with Magnus. Mort's just a pain train though. Best strat for a pure force against him is to kite with Bikes and Hurricane Bolters. Just keep any psykers from Warp Timing him.
If you must fight them, remember they have the same weaknesses as us: mortal wounds and weight of dice.
Sounds like another good excuse to buy Constantin Valdor as a stand-in!
So salvo launchers on bikes. Good? Overpriced? Necessary evil? (For a basically mono bike list I think you need one squad of launchers). Sucks that you get penalized for moving though. Half of me is thinking of just going all hurricane bolters and just punching through the rest with fists
Im thinking about making a only bike list for fun (I only need 2 more boxes, so its not like i'm far off from doing it lol).
Outrider
Sheild Cap-Bike
Bike x3-bolters
Bike x3-bolters
Bike x3-bolters
Outrider
Sheild Cap-Bike
Bike x3-bolters
Bike x1-bolters x2 Salvo
Bike x1-bolters x2 Salvo
As a grey knight player, I absolutely added a salvo launcher to my bikes (1 per squad). You just can’t kill some things efficiently if you only rely on melee. I currently have pure bikes, but I’m most likely going to drop a shield captain for a vexila magnifica and some extra salvo launchers. -1 to hit on the first turn, then he stays back and babysits an objective. I’m planning on at least running an outrider paired with 1k of GK eventually as well.
What is everyone’s opinion on bases? They come with 2 options, the smaller pairs nicely with fly but the big ones mean you can block off objectives or have a bigger charge footprint.
Amishprn86 wrote: I like the oval bases for my bikes. Just for looks purpose lol.
Yeah, I much prefer the modelling potential that comes with the oval base. Planning on doing a stone/marble temple type of thing. The in-game differences are too minor.
Much like how I've decided to just keep the lances up because doing all the cutting/green stuffing to have them pointing down (without looking weird) isn't worth the slightly easier to hide profile.
The only way i could see Allarus is if you regularly play on boards with a decent amount of terrain, letting you drop the Vexilla turn one 9" away behind a wall, and then on your next turn, move, advance, and at the end of your movement phase drop the Termies and hopefully charge.
My area does have decent terrain, so i was thinking:
As for bases, I think the general consensus is oval ones. You can get more into CC and the base is longer to measure by. There was a good point about it being fatter so you could be close to objectives, but if your playing all bikes, your going for full murder and to objectives much. Plus the modeling aspect makes them tied in to the rest of my armies bases better
Primark G wrote: Wardens are really good. I wish Bike Captains could take axes.
There has to be SOME downside to taking bikes, not having as strong a melee wep should be one of them since they are already faster, tougher, more dakka than anything else.
In other news i'm excited about my 2k points game using the allurus for the first time. I'll post my experience with them tonight.
Primark G wrote:Wardens are really good. I wish Bike Captains could take axes.
Id like that also, but I don't see a reason for warden either. Yea +1 Attack, axes, and 6+ FNP but I can just take more basic guys. They need a transport, and there isn't one worth taking yet. Yu can spend the CP to deepstrike them, but then at that point its better for terminators cause of the range weapon they have. Which goes full circle to why not just take bikes (Obviously to be different, or just play for fun, or theme, but all options are worse at a completive level then bikes ATM.)
Oberron wrote:
Primark G wrote: Wardens are really good. I wish Bike Captains could take axes.
There has to be SOME downside to taking bikes, not having as strong a melee wep should be one of them since they are already faster, tougher, more dakka than anything else.
In other news i'm excited about my 2k points game using the allurus for the first time. I'll post my experience with them tonight.
There isn't though. Bikes are the most point cost effective unit in the codex. They fly, they shoot a lot, they have good toughness, they have good melee. That's the problem with A GW Balance, and B having so few units in a codex. Half of the range is stuck in garbage 30k 7th edition land until forgeworld stops sitting on their thumbs
Primark G wrote: Wardens are really good. I wish Bike Captains could take axes.
There has to be SOME downside to taking bikes, not having as strong a melee wep should be one of them since they are already faster, tougher, more dakka than anything else.
In other news i'm excited about my 2k points game using the allurus for the first time. I'll post my experience with them tonight.
I'm going to take 2 Smash Captains, IDK what chapter yet, but the are really good for the points. The other night my BA player killed a 12w t7 Flyer in 1 round of CC.
Primark G wrote: Wardens are really good. I wish Bike Captains could take axes.
There has to be SOME downside to taking bikes, not having as strong a melee wep should be one of them since they are already faster, tougher, more dakka than anything else.
In other news i'm excited about my 2k points game using the allurus for the first time. I'll post my experience with them tonight.
I run a vanguard detachment so I need another elite unit and Wardens have been doing some work for me.
Pretty sure wardens are point for point the best melee in the codex. Axes are just better than spears and wardens are the cheapest axe holder. If you are getting your CP from your guard brigade then I think wardens are straight better than spear custodians. ~12 more points for an axe and 6+ FNP is totally worth it. Uh WOW, wardens have an extra attack. You might as well run all your custodians with spears as counts as wardens. RIP custodians. EDIT: 67 points for axe/misercodia warden. 52 for a spear custodian. For 15 points you get: 1 extra attack 2 extra str on your swings 1 misercodia swing 6+ FNP
That simply isn't close. And they fit in the elite slot in your 3x biker captain detachment.
Primark G wrote: Wardens are really good. I wish Bike Captains could take axes.
There has to be SOME downside to taking bikes, not having as strong a melee wep should be one of them since they are already faster, tougher, more dakka than anything else.
In other news i'm excited about my 2k points game using the allurus for the first time. I'll post my experience with them tonight.
I'm going to take 2 Smash Captains, IDK what chapter yet, but the are really good for the points. The other night my BA player killed a 12w t7 Flyer in 1 round of CC.
By Smash Captain you mean a space marine captain with thunderhammer?
100% run them as BA. relic to re-roll charge + immune to overwatch. 3d6 charge stratagem, +d3 attacks statagem.
Wulfey wrote: Pretty sure wardens are point for point the best melee in the codex. Axes are just better than spears and wardens are the cheapest axe holder. If you are getting your CP from your guard brigade then I think wardens are straight better than spear custodians. ~12 more points for an axe and 6+ FNP is totally worth it. Uh WOW, wardens have an extra attack. You might as well run all your custodians with spears as counts as wardens. RIP custodians. EDIT: 67 points for axe/misercodia warden. 52 for a spear custodian. For 15 points you get:
1 extra attack
2 extra str on your swings
1 misercodia swing
6+ FNP
That simply isn't close. And they fit in the elite slot in your 3x biker captain detachment.
Good analysis of the unit. Also Wardens come with Misercodia built-in.
I'm thinking of doing a Custodes force as a side project, trying to build something that uses a bit of everything in a Battalion detachment. I really wish there were rules for 40k Sagittarum Guard to fit in, but until that happens, what do people think of this for a 2k list?
Spoiler:
HQ:358
Shield Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike, Salvo Launcher & Misericordia - 179 - Auric Aquilas Relic, Warlord w/either Impregnable Mind or Superior Creation Trait.
Shield Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike, Salvo Launcher & Misericordia - 179
The jump from Warden to Allarus is interesting. Wardens are 67 points after axe and mandatory misercordia. Allaraus with just axe are 84 points. 17 extra points buy you:
deepstrike without spending a CP interesting strategems
interesting pilein mechanics
the grenade launcher
+1 wound
no more 6+ FNP
I am kind of not seeing it. Durability per point isn't really increasing (3W / 52, 3W 6+++ / 67, 4W / 84), but you are getting more firepower. You aren't getting any more melee power. The custodian -> warden upgrade is a huge upgrade in melee threats. Spears don't actually threaten T7 that much.
Yeah, GW's pointing feels like it is based strictly on the native stats of the unit, without any consideration of stacking buffs or strategems. Like a 30 stack of shooting gaunts can do like 120 shots with strategem trickery .. but they are 4 points or model or something dumb. You end up with silliness like how phosphor robots are the overwhelmingly best unit in the admech codex because of cawls modifier resistant reroll aura and wrath of mars. But for some reason the phosphor bots cost 11 points less than the fist robots.
With custodes we have termies costing 6 points less than bikers ... but bikers are like the only near competitive unit in the codex. GW thought that native deepstrike, axe, and 4W was worth a significant amount of points. On the whole, all of the custodes foot range is overpriced by like 10 points. GW isn't accounting for competitive opponents bringing mobile armies and screens that can deny 6" move non-deepstriking termies combat forever. It is like they looked at the ideal swinging power of custodes in doing the pricing, as opposed to reality where Eldar waveserpents and YNNARI free moves and deepstrike and fire and fade mean that 6" move models are never going to get into combat.
EDIT: that said ... if those sagitarum guard ever come out ... if they are ~52 points for custodian guard that has 4 shot superheavy bolter (str5, -2, 2 dam) ... yeah ... those will be good. If they end up carrying just a regular heavy bolter, oh well, maybe custodes will be good in 3 years.
Primark G wrote: Do you think the codex was developed with the main intent for stand alone armies?
I am torn on this. I am convinced that their internal playtesters play games at 1500 points using maelstrom rules with 1 battalion and 1 (vanguard/spearhead/outrider) of mono-codex armies. At 1500 points, you can't get the super firepower lists you see at 2000 points, and you also can't get up to the high CP armies that can really turn CP into damage (obliterators, admech, eldar/ynnari, guard brigades, etc.). I think they did write Custodes to be a stand alone force at 1500 in an environment of limited command points and against armies that also only brought 7CP and 2 detachments from mono-codexes. But in the real world where games are actually played (the entire competitive scene plays way more games than the garage gamers, see ITC, adepticon, etc.), the game has 3 detachments and cross codex armies and 13 CP lists. So yes, I do think GW did write the codexes to be standalone. But they did it with serious handicaps on list construction.
Just checkout at the nonsense that was the release of the daemon's codex. It was instantly obvious that you would want to use the whole new batch of strategems from codex daemons on every 'daemon' unit from forgeworld and codex heretic astartes. But for some reason GW didn't realize this before printing and had to put out a FAQ to block cross codex strategem use. Their internal guys just don't get the idea that you would want to reach across codexes whereever you can because it is always going to be out of whack for balance purposes. Rambling here, but I also think that GW writes the strategems as if they will only ever be used on unit entries from within the codex. They for some reason think that their faction KEYWORD system is enough to keep cross codex strategem use under control, but it sure as hell isn't. I expect the March FAQ to have a hard line saying something like: 'Unless otherwise noted in a unit's datasheet, strategems can only be use on units with unit entries in the same book as the strategem'. Then they add some FAQ notes to the forgeworld unit entries that specify what strategems certain units get access to.
^^ I think you're probably right on the money with that one Wulfey.
Its a sublte but important factor: under what conditions is playtesting conducted. Their claimed consultation with tournament organisers and players would imply a competitive type of playtest, but as you say the results suggest otherwise.
So for Allarus Custodes, what kind of a point decrease (the only rules change we can reasonably expect) will be needed to bring them into regular use compared to the rest of the codex? 10 Points?
The daemon thing was probably an oversight... everyone makes mistakes - the main thing is they jumped on it real fast. Now TBH I don't think the daemon codex is all that good compared to what it was in the last edition. In regards to AC I see them as the ultimate ally but will struggle to win as a stand-alone army... but jetbikes are really cool and I am sure GW is selling a sh*t tonne of them.
Spartacus wrote: ^^ I think you're probably right on the money with that one Wulfey.
Its a sublte but important factor: under what conditions is playtesting conducted. Their claimed consultation with tournament organisers and players would imply a competitive type of playtest, but as you say the results suggest otherwise.
So for Allarus Custodes, what kind of a point decrease (the only rules change we can reasonably expect) will be needed to bring them into regular use compared to the rest of the codex? 10 Points?
I think some of the guys from Frontline Gaming are rumored to have been (maybe still are) involved in playtesting. But if they are then either GW isn't listening to them or they aren't doing their job because they should be good enough to quickly spot stuff like using Codex Deamon stratagems on other Daemons.
Spartacus wrote: ^^ I think you're probably right on the money with that one Wulfey.
Its a sublte but important factor: under what conditions is playtesting conducted. Their claimed consultation with tournament organisers and players would imply a competitive type of playtest, but as you say the results suggest otherwise.
So for Allarus Custodes, what kind of a point decrease (the only rules change we can reasonably expect) will be needed to bring them into regular use compared to the rest of the codex? 10 Points?
I think some of the guys from Frontline Gaming are rumored to have been (maybe still are) involved in playtesting. But if they are then either GW isn't listening to them or they aren't doing their job because they should be good enough to quickly spot stuff like using Codex Deamon stratagems on other Daemons.
It's no rumour - they have confirmed many times that they are playtesters. I can't imagine the Denizens of the Warp issue was outright missed as immediately as the leaks started they went on record to say 'That thing you think you can do? You can't.', so I have to imagine that the context of Stratagems etc isn't presented in it's final form, or that GW ignored any complaints about it.
Allarus would probably be more competitive with Bikes of they had that sweet sweet 3++, or dropped some points. I'm hoping that's the way it's dealt with instead of just making the Bikes more expensive - as they're really cool and having them be the benchmark the rest of the codex is balanced against would be really nice.
Yeah, the FLG guys playtest. That said, they don't seem like the most balanced and objective group of dudes for that job, what, with obvious favourite armies and armies they hate.Meh, better than a kick in the head I guess.
Personally, I think Custodes are a better support codex than stand alone, and it wouldn't surprise me if that was the goal all along. There are a bunch of groups on the imperium side that are (or were) essentially support elites (Custodes, Inquisitors, GK originally, SoS etc), and while it makes sense to allow them to be played in mono lists, that may not have been the prime goal of releasing the list. From a marketing and sales perspective it makes sense to give Imperium players another range of cool figs to add to their collections. People are more likely to buy cool figs that they can field right away. I'm ok with that too, I like Imperium soup, mostly because it matches up with what I've always though Imperial armies should look like - masses of guard, marines, and a smattering of fancy elites.
Fenris-77 wrote: Yeah, the FLG guys playtest. That said, they don't seem like the most balanced and objective group of dudes for that job, what, with obvious favourite armies and armies they hate.Meh, better than a kick in the head I guess.
I agree 100%. Compare for reference: Grey Knight and Guard Codices.
Primark G wrote: The daemon thing was probably an oversight... everyone makes mistakes - the main thing is they jumped on it real fast. Now TBH I don't think the daemon codex is all that good compared to what it was in the last edition. In regards to AC I see them as the ultimate ally but will struggle to win as a stand-alone army... but jetbikes are really cool and I am sure GW is selling a sh*t tonne of them.
Chaos obviously synergizes with its other parts way better than imperium and you are shooting yourself in the foot badly if you aren’t taking advantage of at least two chaos codexes. Most imperial codexes do not have the same crossover benefits
Okay, are FLG guys playtesting the printed codex? Or drafts of the codex? I buy that they playtest printed codexes and participate in the FAQ suggestions, but no way they play with draft rules. The development schedule is way longer than that.
That doesn't mean they don't playtest and give feedback on Codices. Reecius even wrote an article gushing about being involved in the Guard one I believe.
Primark G wrote: It is nothing close to the last edition when they were running polls and changing lots of rules they did not like.
Ah right, your talking about something completely different... Please know the topic being discussed before interrupting.
As for the actual topic. There is a non 0 chance that stuff they catch gets ignored by GW. Just because your a play-tester doesn't mean they listen to you. And we don't know changes between the beta rules they use and what is actually released.
having been a play tester for other games catching things isn't always easy. sometimes you've got a "beta copy" of the rules with differant wordings and sometimes you catch something but it gets lost in the editing process. it can be a mess
First outing with the bananas & custard boys tomorrow, 1,500 as a target - and everything I have comes to 1,499 so that will do. And I spent time getting the Sisters Rhino ready but on the shelf it stays this time.
Likely facing Death Guard with what could be anything given he has a lot of it.
Saving grace is he is expecting to face Orks or Tyranids...
Anyway, da list (Patrol as I only have two troop units painted so far)
"da plan" is to see what the board looks like and wing it...
squad of three gets the raider, with the banner and Valoris while we hope it doesn't die turn one, the other squad may go into deep strike and the dreadnaught just wanders about annoying things. All subject to change based on the board and mission on the day.
Trying to keep things simple on their first outing ahead of painting two more spear guys to have three units of three, each two spear & 1 sword & board.
if the enemy goes for a horde not expecting to do too well due to a lack of volume firepower, but if he goes elite it will be a bit more interesting, just need to avoid getting bogged down by zombies
Primark G wrote: It is nothing close to the last edition when they were running polls and changing lots of rules they did not like.
Ah right, your talking about something completely different... Please know the topic being discussed before interrupting.
As for the actual topic. There is a non 0 chance that stuff they catch gets ignored by GW. Just because your a play-tester doesn't mean they listen to you. And we don't know changes between the beta rules they use and what is actually released.
FLG is the one who added +1 for the roll going first.
The +1 IMO was really needed tho. If going 1st was stilla 100% chance (besides seize) Custodes would be 4 Drops everytime, maybe less. But i would do 4 drops.
Amishprn86 wrote: The +1 IMO was really needed tho. If going 1st was stilla 100% chance (besides seize) Custodes would be 4 Drops everytime, maybe less. But i would do 4 drops.
Im not saying the original 'who goes first' formula with drops was the most ideal, but at least it kindve balanced out the horrific points imbalance between horde models and elite models. 4 point Guardsmen vs 54 point Custodes?
-----
^^^
Good luck leopard, remember to start your vexilla outside the transport to give your LR and contemptor the -1 to hit if the Death Guard get first turn
Amishprn86 wrote: The +1 IMO was really needed tho. If going 1st was stilla 100% chance (besides seize) Custodes would be 4 Drops everytime, maybe less. But i would do 4 drops.
At first I didnt like it but combined with no longer being able to re-roll StI it is a good thing IMO.
So I played against some allarus today with what I think we a fairly competitive CSM list. Well. They are pretty good. I wound up pulling out the game but not by a whole lot.
Was a smaller game but seriously. Those allarus are a brick wall. And hit like a ton of bricks. Can’t wait to finish putting together my bikes to have that and mobility!
Amishprn86 wrote: Thinking of adding a Praetor to my Bikes, anyone else doing this? mostly for turn 1 safety but also to have a character with an Axe.
That was my initial plan aswell (the Vexilla eventually got cut for points).
I just really really hate that the Terminator version is effectively unarmed. Paying a CP to be able to deepstrike the Power Armor version just feels wrong. (not having deepstrike doesn't matter if the enemy goes first but it would be really good if your going first).
I wouldn't say the Allarus Vexilus Praetor is totally unarmed, he still gets his Misericordia which at the end of the day is still S5 AP -2 D1 with 5 attacks and the grenade launcher that's Assault D3 S4 AP -3 D1, an MEQ killer. His primary role is to provide the aura exactly where you need him, so him getting into combat is secondary to me.
So, in an effort to make my Deathwatch at least be mildly viable, I've come up with a plan that involves dropping in a jump pack Captain and Allarus Vexilia, then teleporting six aggressors using the DW relic to their location. Think this will put in work? It's a lot of points, but there should be a pretty big hole in the enemy bubble wrap after it goes off. I don't lose the relic from being mixed Imperium and the two DW Stratagems are kind of meh anyway. Will the added 5++ on the Aggressors be worth it or should I just rely on their native toughness and wounds?
Had a game today versus one of the better players in my area... he ran IG with Custodes and I ran my Smurfs with Custodes. He had the three dawneagles but no Jetbikes for me and I ended up tabling him. Null Zone wrecked him.
Alright so after a couple of game delays I finally was able to get my 2k pure custodes vs a 2k grey knight game in.
Played one of the missions from the chapter approved (mission with getting VPs at the end of your turn for each objective, and for each unit killed), set up was one of the odd ones where we each have a corner square and a 9" empty circle in the middle.
Armies 19 models vs 21 models. Battle of elite armies.
Set up.
I won the roll off and got to deploy first which is funny because we both only deployed 3 units on the battlefield and the rest was either embarked or in deepstrike. He was unable to steal so I got first go.
Turn 1 (my turn)
Highlight moment:Blew up dreadknight from first shot of lascannons from land raider, got 3 wounds he only saved 1 and rolled box cars for damage blowing him up.
Moved my custodes into place to hold two objectives and moved landraider to get a better shot at the dreadknight, deep struk my warlord in the middle and the rest of the allarus near his landraider to rip it apart. Nothing else really happened in shooting and failed my charge with allarus. claimed one of the objectives near his side with my dread.
points: 6 vs 0
Turn 1 (greyknight turn)
Got some powers off to buff his guys and deep striked the rest of his army pretty much mirrioring my move with the allarus. Got couple of charges off vs my allarus and thanks to his grenades on his land raider did some wounds on my allarus (we goofed on how wound allocation worked since both of us are both having new edition problems) doing multiple wounds to my allarus but his disembarked squad didn't do so well. My allarus dropped the LR to 2 wounds.
points: 6 vs 2
Turn 2 (my turn)
Used unleash the lions (which even though it would give him a chance to get more points would also make him waste his attacks and shooting at single man units) Disembarked my 4 man squad and valoris towards his termie squad, warlord, and banner carrier, moved 3 man squad toward same unit. Didn't move dread so i could shoot full bs. Did 2 wounds to his dreadnught in shooting phase. In assault charged my dread into his LR finishing it off and all my allarus units moved into his squad of marines cutting them down to only a handful. Wiped out his termie squad and got to lock his banner and warlord in combat from pile in and consolidate moves.
Points: 9 vs 2
Turn 2 (Grey knights)
His dread got a shot off and did a wound to my dread. He did some more powers and did several mortal wounds to my allarus which i lost 3 of (giving him 3 points) and 3 mortal wounds to valoris (i think used his moment shackle and got back 3 wounds). Buffed his warlord with hammerfist?(+1 to wound) and buffed his invul to a 3++. Next to no other shooting. In assault his final marine in combat with my allarus died and he lost his banner carrier to my warlord.
points: 11 vs 5
Turn 3: (my turn)
His warlord was alone at this point so I 1v1 him with a fight club circle having Valoris fight him. My land raider blew up his only other psyker leaving his dreadnought and warlord as final units. Valoris and his warlord went blow for blow but valoris was left with 1 wound and got his warlord to 1 wound. His dread died from allarus + dread charge.
points: 15 vs 5
Turn 3 (grey knight)
His warlord killed valoris.
points: 15 vs 6
Turn 4 (final)
My shield captain killed his warlord for game.
Thoughts: The allarus are useful with their shooting and the grenade launchers really up their damage before a charge and "unleash the lions" can be fantastic strat when used right (in this case i used it thinking that 1 allarus would be enough to finish off his land raider and the rest can pile into his marine squad so i wouldn't waste any attacks but then just charged with my dread so it was 2 cp wasted more or less but fun to use). Valoris is useful but I see him as a mix of a shield captain with a super axe and an awesome aura effect, not really a murder machine in his own right but definitely a force multiplier with the re-roll hits and wounds of 1. The land raider was very useful with anti-tank and range weps which custodes really need outside of assault phase.
Ill pitch in with a bat-rep from today. 1k Custodes vs my mates nasty IG infantry list.
Custodes Battaliion:
SC on Jetbike w/ Misericordia
SC on Jetbike
3 Man Custodians (2 Shield, 1 Spear)
3 Man Custodians (2 Shield, 1 Spear)
4 Man Custodians (2 Shield, 2 Spear)
Vex Praetor w/ Misericordia, Vexilla Magnifica
IG: Cadians (Not sure of exact army composition)
14 Characters (Platoon/Company Commanders) all with P-Fists and Plasma pistols
12 Infantry Squads
134 pairs of boots vs my 13.... honestly I went in expecting to get wiped
I deployed everything as far forward as possible, he castled quite far forward around some cover on my left.
-----
T1 Custodes: I went first after he decided not to seize, advanced everything besides jetbikes, who gunned down about 10 Guard Infantry.
T1 IG: He unveiled his Cadian relic. Focussed lasgun fire on my jetbikes out in front, but was not able to do much to them (1 wound to the non-warlord) thanks to the banner. Plasma was out of range.
T2 Custodes: I moved the jetbikes across my line of advance to strike at the right flank of his castle. The 2 smaller Custodian squads moved up for assault, while the banner and larger squad advanced. I got a 11 inch advance on my banner which was crucial in keeping my whole army -1 to hit for next turn. The bike and 1 infantry squad charged in and cut down a heap of guardsmen. I avoided his characters.
T2 IG: He fell back from combat but piled another squad into my warlord jetbike, to tarpit him. He finally decided to focus lasgun fire plus some plasma on my footmen, and managed to kill off a squad, doing damage to another. He fired more plasma at my wounded jetbike SC and took a few wounds off. In his assault phase, he lined up a bunch of characters and attempted to charge. I used the 'Unflinching' stratagem and gunned down the first of the 5 characters lined up to charge me. He decided not to try again.
T3 Custodes: Custodian squads ploughed into his line doing as much damage to the infantry as possible. Lost one to overwatch, and another 1-2 to powerfist characters. The jetbikes and Vexilla guy cleared the infantry tarpit on my warlord and killed off the last remaining characters on his right flank. He had about 30 infantry left by this point, and half of his characters.
T3 IG: Plasma and lasgun fire took more of my Custodians down, I had 4 left. He charged the big squad with a bunch of characters and managed to take them all down besides one spear guy.
T4 Custodes: My jetbikes flew over his castle lines and got into the exposed rear, killing off most of his remaining characters (including warlord) with gunfire and their powerful charges. Vexilla guy ran to the rescue of the lone spear Custodian and they managed to kill off a few more Characters and infantry. One surviving shield Custodian continued to munch through a squad of infantry.
After that devastating assault phase we decided to call it there as he had only 1-2 Company commanders and a few infantry sqauds left, and nothing really that could challenge my Shield Captains.
My thoughts:
- Jetbikes = amazing. I gave both of them extra defensive buffs (Warlord had -1 to hit, other guy had the relic jetbike).
- Opponent made a few errors, first was his target priority - his lasguns were wasted on my jetbike and I managed to escape T1 with almost no damage. By the time he started shooting my squads it was just a bit too late. Second I though he deployed a little too far forward - allowed me to make a few assaults turn 2, and the cover he gained didn't help that much.
-The banner obviously is worth its weight in gold (auramite?), as expected he was reluctant to ever overcharge his plasma, which helped my guys last that little bit longer. He told me he forgot to make more use of the cadian stratagem which gives a +1 to hit for focused fire units, and would have allowed him to avoid the nasty -1.
-Misericordia attacks are extremely useful, particularly when facing down hordes
- Definitely worth mixing in storm shields with your Custodian Guard squads, make them that little bit extra tanky when facing the dangerous stuff, like plasma. I will have to work on my wound allocation though, often he was able to get around by shields by wounding the spear guys with lasgun fire first.
I guess I'll add to the batreps. 2k match. I brought Custodians and Blood Angels, he brought Imperial Guard, Raven Guard and Raptors.
I had 3 Custodian Guard, 1 Allarus Captain, 1 Jetbike Captain, 2 Jetbikes, a BA Captain, a Sanguinary Guard unit, a Sanguinary Ancient and a Venator Tank Destroyer. Jetbike Captain was Warlord with Relic Bike and Radiant Mantle. BA Captain was setup similar to Slamguinus build.
He had 3 infantry squads with Mortars, 2 Primaris Psykers, 3 Manticores, a Company Commander, a RG Captain with Hammer+Shield, 3 scout squads, a 10-model Vanguard Vet with 7 lightning claws and 3 storm shields, Lias Issodon deep striking in a 10 model Sternguard and 2 devastator squads; one with missile Launchers and one with lascannons.
I went first. Used CP to deep strike foot Captain and a Guard Squad around an infantry squad blocking the way to a Manticore. Landed the Blood Angels within charge range of his Vanguard Vets. Moved everyone else up.
BA Captain whiffed his charge despite relic wing. Sanguinary made it in when I burned 2CP for 3D6 charge, but the storm shields ate almost all their damage and I only killed 2 of them. Ancient made his charge and killed last storm shield after burning Honor the Chapter. Custodes failed their deep strike charges. Hurricane Bolters on Bikes crippled the missile launcher Devastators. Tank kills 1 Manticore.
His Vanguard Vets decimated the Sanguinary Guard in return and demolished the Ancient and BA Captain. Manticores killed 2 bikes. Lias revealed himself and killed 2 Guards with lascannon devs. Shield Captain on Foot is hurt by Primaris Psykers Smite.
Bikes and Guard manage to assault and clear much of infantry and mortars. 2nd Manticore is crippled. Lascannons and Sternguard still out of range except to Foot Captain who consolidated into them and locked them in combat
His T2 hurts bad. He used a Stratagem on the Sternguard and they wiped 2 more bikes. Lascannons killed Venator. Manticore killed a Guard. Vanguard Vets engage a Guard Squad and kill it though they're down to just 4 guys now. Foot Captain killed by Primaris Psykers Smite which freed Las and Stern to shoot.
On T3 salvage what I can, Jetbike Captain puts down both his Captain and the last of his Vets. Guard squad ties up Sternguard. Other Guard squad engages the healthy Manticore.
Lias Issodon ends up making 3 5+ saves then wrecking the Guard fighting his Sternguard. We decide the game is basically resolved there as tabling of either side looks highly unlikely and we've reached a maximum score threshold.
Due to the way the mission worked I couldn't score more than 5 primary points due to having too few units left to snag endgame objectives. He had 9 primary by electing continuous scoring. We both maxed tertiary and secondary scores.
Exact details are not that important, but the first game we faced Death Guard and won more or less right away. Scenario had two objectives with instant win for holding both.
Dropped a unit of four custards via the stratagem 9" from the unit of zombies holding it, made the charge, naturally didn't break the zombies we simply don't roll enough dice - enemy counter charged but only got a daemon prince in, who couldn't take the objective from us - victory top of turn one...
Second game against dark pansies, six objectives, mission to destroy the enemies three, again deep striking put four custards behind the enemy who nailed all three on three turns while we lost two in the same time.
Key in the first game was the ability to hold an objective over and above an enemy unit regardless of numbers unless they have the same rule combined with being tough as old boots against typical anti infantry fire - the storm shields in units helping against enemy anti tank stuff, and a decent leadership meaning one or two casualties don't matter.
Take away lessons:
1. you don't have the numbers to play an attrition game, you will die if you try, so don't hang about - deep striking is worth its weight in gold here.
2. you don't have the force to fight the enemy all over, so pick your fights, remember you are not here to fight the enemy, you are hear to complete a mission - so the only enemy that matters are the enemy on the objectives, strike hard, get in close, use consolidation to seize objectives from under their noses
3. An alpha strike will hurt - so deploy in a defensive style, combine with teleportation of the strike force, deploy a force to provide long ranged fire support - the Vexilia Magnifica for -1 to hit is golden here, the stuff you drop on the table is a distraction on the first turn, position to draw the enemy towards you in order to hit them, make the deep strike unit do the hard work, but help it.
Overall I think the jet bikes will be useful, as they too can grab objectives, but I think they are likely best as golden distraction carnifexes, and actually backed by a terminator unit that can split and be a royal pain to remove they should be golden, but they are not needed - the basic custards are good enough if you have the strategy points to work with.
Also when the enemy does get close keeping Valorian close for the re-rolls is disgusting.
In two games the total casualties were two custard guards in each game, all from the four man strike unit, yet they got the job done.
Played my pure bikes list (shield captain, 6xbike squads, vexila praetor w/-1) against chaos/daemons list. He had a bunch of cultists, daemonettes, and horrors.
I tabled him T4. We had a good discussion afterwards (he’s a good buddy of mine) and care to the conclusion that custodes jetbikes may be the most OP thing in the game currently. T6, 2+/4++ 4 wounds is extremely difficult to kill, and they have fly so they can’t be locked down. Hurricanes at BS2+ chew through hordes. The only counters we identified were 1) death guard/nurgle with ranged mortal wounds and 2) a Guilliman gunline maxing out hellblasters. They hit hard, they’re fast, and extremely difficult to kill.
I respect your insight, but most OP thing in the game is sensationalism at it's best.
Counters?
Psychic powers in general
Smite
Nurgle mortal wounds
High volume of fire, 2d+ weapons (avenger knights, etc)
Large hordes
Literally any screen
Eldar, specifically denying invulns and dark reapers
Tzeentch Daemons like Flamers and exalted Flamers
I, genuinely, could go on for a very long time.
They're good.
Compared to everything else Custodes have, amazing.
That doesn't mean they're Op because everything else is mediocre.
Agreed, they have a good place considering the meta right now and decent offensive capabilty, but they should still get clobbered by AT weapons, a 4++ isn't infalliable. Not to mention mortal wounds. As I said earlier any small arms fire directed towards them is pretty much wasted, which people may take a little while to realize.
Jetbike spam would play pretty similar to Grey Knight Nemesis Dreadknight spam, which is hardly OP. While they are more mobile they would be far more vulnerable to psychic mortal wounds.
2 Dark reaper shots going throw kills one. When you think about it that way, every 6 will kill 1 bike. Playing 19 will kill 3 and the 1 9 man shoots 2x, so thats 4 dead turn 1.
This is without Jinx, Space Marines can as well remove Invuls too.
They are not OP b.c they are close range, you just need the tools, SM with re-move invul and a bunch of Plasma will kill a full unit a turn.
Oberron wrote: About how many points should other things drop by? I'd be fine if allarus got dropped by about 6 points.
I think bases are fine, it's equipment that needs to drop. Shields should go down 3-5, spears down to 10, Inceptor Lances up to 8 and axes to 12. Whatever they're pricing balistus internally should drop about 2 too.
Keep bikes the same. Drop everything else by 5-10pts that's on foot, and ignore the land raider and dread because they're pointless and only exist because of the talons box.
Audustum wrote: Yeah they're strong, but they're not close to OP. Still, their lances are currently free so I expect a price bump in March.
That said, what are you guys doing to counter the following:
1. Imperial Guard indirect artillery fire. Specifically mass Mortars and Manticores (2D6 shots at S10 and multi-damage!).
2. Alaitoc Craftworlds with Hemlock Wraithfighters and Dark Reapers.
Custodes almost certainly will not get a price change next month, their previous updates show GW only change things for balance after the rules have been played with for at least few months. Unless there is something glaring which is covered in the specific FAQ's. We should get one any day now.
1. -1 to hit banner affects IG (a 4+ BS army) significantly. Jetbikes and deepstrike to minimize the time you spend getting to the enemy lines.
greyknight12 wrote: Played my pure bikes list (shield captain, 6xbike squads, vexila praetor w/-1) against chaos/daemons list. He had a bunch of cultists, daemonettes, and horrors.
I tabled him T4. We had a good discussion afterwards (he’s a good buddy of mine) and care to the conclusion that custodes jetbikes may be the most OP thing in the game currently. T6, 2+/4++ 4 wounds is extremely difficult to kill, and they have fly so they can’t be locked down. Hurricanes at BS2+ chew through hordes. The only counters we identified were 1) death guard/nurgle with ranged mortal wounds and 2) a Guilliman gunline maxing out hellblasters. They hit hard, they’re fast, and extremely difficult to kill.
they're not even close.
For example, a blood letter bomb can easily merc a bike squad for cheaper. And, you know, they're not dark reapers.
Rock up against an army running 5 or 6 plasmacutioners, see how long the bikes last.
That was a bit of hyperbole (which unfortunately I failed to communicate). However, a lot of the so-called "counters" to the bikes actually fall a bit short of what you'd expect. T6/4 wounds is a sweet spot.
Psychic powers in general - Stripping their invul hurts, but with a 2+ they still have a decent save. And that's only one unit that will suffer.
Smite - Not much smite spam after the beta rules, but on average each smite does 2 wounds, so it will take 2 to kill a single bike.
Nurgle mortal wounds - Already identified these as a weakness, no argument there.
High volume of fire, 2d+ weapons (avenger knights, etc) - Avenger cannon @BS3+: 12 shots/8 hits/4 wounds/2 failed saves/4 wounds (1 dead bike). And because knights aren't great right now, there aren't many of those (but at most 4 in a pure list).
Large hordes - BS2+ Hurricane bolters. @12": 12 shots/10 hits, which is 6.67 wounds on T3 and 5 wounds on T4 before saves, And with fly, they will be shooting every turn.
Literally any screen - Fly.
Eldar, specifically denying invulns and dark reapers - You can strip one unit's invul. As for reapers, each successful hit does 1.17 wounds on average (1 hit/0.67 wounds/0.33 failed saves/1.17 average dmg if the invul is up.
Tzeentch Daemons like Flamers and exalted Flamers - Bikes outrange them, and have the volume of fire to power through invul saves.
For fun, I'll add plasma command squad scions (78 points, rapid firing overcharged): 8 shots/5.3 hits/3.55 wounds/1.78 failed saves/3.56 wounds=probably 1 dead bike. And one bike can kill all of them next turn. (3 with shooting alone)
Bloodletters were brought up, so assuming squad of 20 (WS2+): 20 attacks/16.7 hits/5.6 wounds/2.8 failed saves. So if some of those failures were 2 wounds, you can kill a bike. Then the bikes will fly out, and unload 24 BS2+ hurricane bolter shots.
Manticores are handled by utilizing the Vexila Magnifca to make them hit on 5s. But ff you're out of the bubble, you're looking at (average) 7 shots/3.5 hits/2.3/wounds/1.16 failed saves/2.32 wounds. Then you shoot them with melta missiles.
Alaitoc is assulted and shot at within 12', so no negatives to hit. Then you unload hurricanes and flakburst missiles into the hemlocks, and assult the reapers. And remember that you need a 4+ on damage to even kill a full bike.
Custodes are good but just not going to take a big tournament. Maybe with a guard batallion or two, but having so few models and wounds is just too swingy. Sure it works sometimes, but in a 6 round tournament, you’re just going to have a rad h of bad luck. They struggle to overcome bad dice more so than other armies with redundancy.
But the important issue - I’m straying more away from salvo launchers I think. Anyone want to math out possible targets to see which weapon is most efficient vs various targets? I feel like anything short of T8 or 2+ saves is going to be better suited to be tackled by rapid firing hurricane bolters.
That was a bit of hyperbole (which unfortunately I failed to communicate). However, a lot of the so-called "counters" to the bikes actually fall a bit short of what you'd expect. T6/4 wounds is a sweet spot.
Psychic powers in general - Stripping their invul hurts, but with a 2+ they still have a decent save. And that's only one unit that will suffer.
Smite - Not much smite spam after the beta rules, but on average each smite does 2 wounds, so it will take 2 to kill a single bike.
Nurgle mortal wounds - Already identified these as a weakness, no argument there.
High volume of fire, 2d+ weapons (avenger knights, etc) - Avenger cannon @BS3+: 12 shots/8 hits/4 wounds/2 failed saves/4 wounds (1 dead bike). And because knights aren't great right now, there aren't many of those (but at most 4 in a pure list).
Large hordes - BS2+ Hurricane bolters. @12": 12 shots/10 hits, which is 6.67 wounds on T3 and 5 wounds on T4 before saves, And with fly, they will be shooting every turn.
Literally any screen - Fly.
Eldar, specifically denying invulns and dark reapers - You can strip one unit's invul. As for reapers, each successful hit does 1.17 wounds on average (1 hit/0.67 wounds/0.33 failed saves/1.17 average dmg if the invul is up.
Tzeentch Daemons like Flamers and exalted Flamers - Bikes outrange them, and have the volume of fire to power through invul saves.
For fun, I'll add plasma command squad scions (78 points, rapid firing overcharged): 8 shots/5.3 hits/3.55 wounds/1.78 failed saves/3.56 wounds=probably 1 dead bike. And one bike can kill all of them next turn. (3 with shooting alone)
Bloodletters were brought up, so assuming squad of 20 (WS2+): 20 attacks/16.7 hits/5.6 wounds/2.8 failed saves. So if some of those failures were 2 wounds, you can kill a bike. Then the bikes will fly out, and unload 24 BS2+ hurricane bolter shots.
Manticores are handled by utilizing the Vexila Magnifca to make them hit on 5s. But ff you're out of the bubble, you're looking at (average) 7 shots/3.5 hits/2.3/wounds/1.16 failed saves/2.32 wounds. Then you shoot them with melta missiles.
Alaitoc is assulted and shot at within 12', so no negatives to hit. Then you unload hurricanes and flakburst missiles into the hemlocks, and assult the reapers. And remember that you need a 4+ on damage to even kill a full bike.
I have to take issue with your analysis of the Manticores. The Vexillia is hopefully going to help, but the Manticore has a 120" range and doesn't need line of sight. The group of them your opponent took will be on the exact opposite side of the board (since he has more drops he can see where your bikes go first) and it will take you 2-3 turns to get over there even jumping over chaff and ignoring everything in your way. A LOT can go wrong before Custodes can reach those things.
The danger of the Hemlocks is that they will: A) Always hit you first due to superior movement and B) Are psykers in addition to excellent shooters so you're gonna get smacked in the face when they do. We also don't have enough units to hit the Hemlocks and the Reapers simultaneously (the Reapers also outrange our bikes).
You need to clarify what kind of game you are playing before talking about the efficacy of bikes. At 1500 points in maelstrom they will be too tough to stop. In a 2000 point ITC game your opponent will have the firepower to bring them down and they cost far too much to be holding objectives.
Anyone else have an opinion on Salvo Launchers? Looking back at them I can see maybe sticking 1 launcher in a unit of 3 or even give the SC one since even though he hits on 3+ he'll reroll 1's anyway to help mitigate it. 1 launcher and 2 Hurricane Bolters in a 3 bike unit sounds fairly balanced especially in a TAC pure Custodes list. Curious to hear people's opinions on this.
True, I do have at least 4-5 axes on my list that can do well in anti armor plus with the sheer weight of shots from Hurricane Bolters, I'm likely to strip off a couple of wounds before charging in with lances. And with rerolling wounds the lances are decent anti armor as well.
That was a bit of hyperbole (which unfortunately I failed to communicate). However, a lot of the so-called "counters" to the bikes actually fall a bit short of what you'd expect. T6/4 wounds is a sweet spot.
Psychic powers in general - Stripping their invul hurts, but with a 2+ they still have a decent save. And that's only one unit that will suffer.
Smite - Not much smite spam after the beta rules, but on average each smite does 2 wounds, so it will take 2 to kill a single bike.
Nurgle mortal wounds - Already identified these as a weakness, no argument there.
High volume of fire, 2d+ weapons (avenger knights, etc) - Avenger cannon @BS3+: 12 shots/8 hits/4 wounds/2 failed saves/4 wounds (1 dead bike). And because knights aren't great right now, there aren't many of those (but at most 4 in a pure list).
Large hordes - BS2+ Hurricane bolters. @12": 12 shots/10 hits, which is 6.67 wounds on T3 and 5 wounds on T4 before saves, And with fly, they will be shooting every turn.
Literally any screen - Fly.
Eldar, specifically denying invulns and dark reapers - You can strip one unit's invul. As for reapers, each successful hit does 1.17 wounds on average (1 hit/0.67 wounds/0.33 failed saves/1.17 average dmg if the invul is up.
Tzeentch Daemons like Flamers and exalted Flamers - Bikes outrange them, and have the volume of fire to power through invul saves.
For fun, I'll add plasma command squad scions (78 points, rapid firing overcharged): 8 shots/5.3 hits/3.55 wounds/1.78 failed saves/3.56 wounds=probably 1 dead bike. And one bike can kill all of them next turn. (3 with shooting alone)
Bloodletters were brought up, so assuming squad of 20 (WS2+): 20 attacks/16.7 hits/5.6 wounds/2.8 failed saves. So if some of those failures were 2 wounds, you can kill a bike. Then the bikes will fly out, and unload 24 BS2+ hurricane bolter shots.
Manticores are handled by utilizing the Vexila Magnifca to make them hit on 5s. But ff you're out of the bubble, you're looking at (average) 7 shots/3.5 hits/2.3/wounds/1.16 failed saves/2.32 wounds. Then you shoot them with melta missiles.
Alaitoc is assulted and shot at within 12', so no negatives to hit. Then you unload hurricanes and flakburst missiles into the hemlocks, and assult the reapers. And remember that you need a 4+ on damage to even kill a full bike.
Here's what a bloodletter bomb is. 30 bloodletters with a herald in support. It will kill, statistically, a jetbike squad.
Leman russes are extremely cost efficient at nuking custodes, especially on the actual battlefield where you have mutually supporting elements.
Custodes have rather limited support. YOu have your reroll ones, and your vexilia, but the vexilia is difficult to keep up, so you realistically want 2, one that can deep strike, but then you're tying up 250 points of models that will do something for 2 turns before your bikes have outrun their auras. And it forces you to hump a 6 inch bubble, which is bad for, say, ITC. If you're rocking an objective game, usually you have to seperate your elements to score, which means that... well the enemy isn't going to shoot at the guys still in the bubble. Bikes and a foot based minus one do not mix well. If you are going full bikes, it is legitimately hard to fit all of them IN 6 inches of a bubble.
In my opinion in a competitive environment if your sitting on an objective with Custodes your doing it wrong. They are way to expensive for that.
Bring a detachment of something cheap (IG obviously, but AdMech, SoB or Marines can do it aswell) to sit on Objectives while your Custodes go balls to the wall and force your opponent to deal with them rather then your softer Objective units.
Ordana wrote: In my opinion in a competitive environment if your sitting on an objective with Custodes your doing it wrong. They are way to expensive for that.
Bring a detachment of something cheap (IG obviously, but AdMech, SoB or Marines can do it aswell) to sit on Objectives while your Custodes go balls to the wall and force your opponent to deal with them rather then your softer Objective units.
Sure. You can do that. But not all objectives are just there for you to sit on. You have to go OUT and get them. It's, far as I have played, never a better choice to run your bikes in one mob forward. They split up, naturally. Running 10 bikes to one place in a 6 inch bubble is drastic overkill for almost anything in the game. You have to hope you're playing, say, a gman gunline who is doing the same thing
Ordana wrote: In my opinion in a competitive environment if your sitting on an objective with Custodes your doing it wrong. They are way to expensive for that.
Bring a detachment of something cheap (IG obviously, but AdMech, SoB or Marines can do it aswell) to sit on Objectives while your Custodes go balls to the wall and force your opponent to deal with them rather then your softer Objective units.
Depends on your format. With all bikes/infantry having Obsec, advancing 20" onto an objective and stealing it from a min-man squad of something random from a soup detachment is a real threat you can absolutely do, and may very well win you a game. Not only that, but thinks like the ITC format don't award max points if you table an opponent, so being able to quickly take objectives is a powerful ability.
stratigo wrote: Here's what a bloodletter bomb is. 30 bloodletters with a herald in support. It will kill, statistically, a jetbike squad.
Now we're talking a 294 point (minimum) unit dedicated to CC, so you cost more than the bike squad. Lets assume that they summon/deepstrike in, and make the charge (+1 attack):
30 Bloodletters (WS2+): 60 attacks/50 hits/16.7 wounds/8.33 unsaved. That ups to 12 wounds if we assume that half of the unsaved wounds were 6's to wound.
Herald: 5 attacks/4.2 hits/1.4 wounds/0.46 unsaved.
So yes, on average you can get 13 wounds on a 12 wounds squad, assuming you make the charge and didn't take excessive casulties (on average you lose 2.7 from overwatch, meaning you do 0.38 less unsaved wounds).
For comparison, lets do a squad of 3 bikes shooting hurricanes at the bomb: 36 shots/30 hits/20 wounds/13.3 unsaved
Then, assuming they charge: 12 attacks/10 hits/9.72 wounds/6.5 unsaved. 19.8 dead bloodletters in total. In CC you'll probably kill a bike in return, but that's assuming they charged you at all and didn't just shoot with another squad.
@Audustum
Manticores/Hemlocks
The farthest your opponent can keep a manticore from you T1 is 55 inches, in vanguard strike (actually, more like 49 cause the tank is about 6" long). So if you advance T1, you'll be able to shoot T2 assuming you deploy forward. Hemlocks do 2xD3 hits, average 4, for 3.33 wounds which becomes 3.33 damage. If it also successfully smited, it killed a single bike.
Leman russes are the same as manticores regarding damage to bikes on their battle cannon, if they have plasma sponsons they do an additional 0.67 wounds (1.33 if they overcharged).
The reason why the bikes are nasty when is because their counters are unlikely to be spammed by your opponent in a TAC list. There is a limit to how many bloodletter bombs you can take. How many manticores did your opponent take and still be able to screen their tanks? The ideal weapon to kill our jetbikes is is a S7+ 4 dmg weapon with at least -2 AP. There aren't many of those that can be spammed while also being able to deal with green tide or cultists. And while those counters to bikes definitely exist, the rest of the army isn't doing meaningful damage at all (rapid-firing guard squad w/FRFSRF does 0.5 wounds).
stratigo wrote: Here's what a bloodletter bomb is. 30 bloodletters with a herald in support. It will kill, statistically, a jetbike squad.
Now we're talking a 294 point (minimum) unit dedicated to CC, so you cost more than the bike squad. Lets assume that they summon/deepstrike in, and make the charge (+1 attack):
30 Bloodletters (WS2+): 60 attacks/50 hits/16.7 wounds/8.33 unsaved. That ups to 12 wounds if we assume that half of the unsaved wounds were 6's to wound.
Herald: 5 attacks/4.2 hits/1.4 wounds/0.46 unsaved.
So yes, on average you can get 13 wounds on a 12 wounds squad, assuming you make the charge and didn't take excessive casulties (on average you lose 2.7 from overwatch, meaning you do 0.38 less unsaved wounds).
For comparison, lets do a squad of 3 bikes shooting hurricanes at the bomb: 36 shots/30 hits/20 wounds/13.3 unsaved
Then, assuming they charge: 12 attacks/10 hits/9.72 wounds/6.5 unsaved. 19.8 dead bloodletters in total. In CC you'll probably kill a bike in return, but that's assuming they charged you at all and didn't just shoot with another squad.
@Audustum
Manticores/Hemlocks
The farthest your opponent can keep a manticore from you T1 is 55 inches, in vanguard strike (actually, more like 49 cause the tank is about 6" long). So if you advance T1, you'll be able to shoot T2 assuming you deploy forward. Hemlocks do 2xD3 hits, average 4, for 3.33 wounds which becomes 3.33 damage. If it also successfully smited, it killed a single bike.
Leman russes are the same as manticores regarding damage to bikes on their battle cannon, if they have plasma sponsons they do an additional 0.67 wounds (1.33 if they overcharged).
The reason why the bikes are nasty when is because their counters are unlikely to be spammed by your opponent in a TAC list. There is a limit to how many bloodletter bombs you can take. How many manticores did your opponent take and still be able to screen their tanks? The ideal weapon to kill our jetbikes is is a S7+ 4 dmg weapon with at least -2 AP. There aren't many of those that can be spammed while also being able to deal with green tide or cultists. And while those counters to bikes definitely exist, the rest of the army isn't doing meaningful damage at all (rapid-firing guard squad w/FRFSRF does 0.5 wounds).
If you are facing demons, multiple letter bombs is actually quite easy to pull off. Each one makes the herald more valuable, as you only need the one herald.
As for tanks? This is guard. You can get around 6 to 7 tanks and still have a significant number of screens. And the tank math is worse as they will be a number of commanders, a number of rerolls of 1, and maybe pask. A guard gun line very efficiently cleans up bikers fast enough that the return punch on turn 2 doesn’t kill enough
I haven’t matched out any eldar matchups or played them, so I don’t know how well eldar manage, though I imagine dark reapers murder you like they do all else
Ordana wrote: In my opinion in a competitive environment if your sitting on an objective with Custodes your doing it wrong. They are way to expensive for that.
Bring a detachment of something cheap (IG obviously, but AdMech, SoB or Marines can do it aswell) to sit on Objectives while your Custodes go balls to the wall and force your opponent to deal with them rather then your softer Objective units.
Depends on your format. With all bikes/infantry having Obsec, advancing 20" onto an objective and stealing it from a min-man squad of something random from a soup detachment is a real threat you can absolutely do, and may very well win you a game. Not only that, but thinks like the ITC format don't award max points if you table an opponent, so being able to quickly take objectives is a powerful ability.
Exactly. ITC Champs missions are each turn: +1 if you killed a unit, +1 if you held an objective, +1 if you killed more units than your opponent, +1 if you held more (and a usually impossible +1 for something special). You have 2 points easily with bikes, and with the difficulties in killing them it's quite likely you'll get "killed more" as well (this is a similar reason to why gunlines actually rule progressive scoring games despite intentions to the contrary). If you need objective holders, 180 pts gives you a guard battalion. Additionally, a 3-man squad of bikes can surround an objective with 2" spacing and keep anything else from claiming it short of charging them.
Ordana wrote: In my opinion in a competitive environment if your sitting on an objective with Custodes your doing it wrong. They are way to expensive for that.
Bring a detachment of something cheap (IG obviously, but AdMech, SoB or Marines can do it aswell) to sit on Objectives while your Custodes go balls to the wall and force your opponent to deal with them rather then your softer Objective units.
Depends on your format. With all bikes/infantry having Obsec, advancing 20" onto an objective and stealing it from a min-man squad of something random from a soup detachment is a real threat you can absolutely do, and may very well win you a game. Not only that, but thinks like the ITC format don't award max points if you table an opponent, so being able to quickly take objectives is a powerful ability.
Exactly. ITC Champs missions are each turn: +1 if you killed a unit, +1 if you held an objective, +1 if you killed more units than your opponent, +1 if you held more (and a usually impossible +1 for something special). You have 2 points easily with bikes, and with the difficulties in killing them it's quite likely you'll get "killed more" as well (this is a similar reason to why gunlines actually rule progressive scoring games despite intentions to the contrary). If you need objective holders, 180 pts gives you a guard battalion. Additionally, a 3-man squad of bikes can surround an objective with 2" spacing and keep anything else from claiming it short of charging them.
But not everyone plays those missions. Many just use the BRB ones. You need to build your list and when we talk about building a list, say what mission types so others dont misunderstand.
Ordana wrote: In my opinion in a competitive environment if your sitting on an objective with Custodes your doing it wrong. They are way to expensive for that.
Bring a detachment of something cheap (IG obviously, but AdMech, SoB or Marines can do it aswell) to sit on Objectives while your Custodes go balls to the wall and force your opponent to deal with them rather then your softer Objective units.
Depends on your format. With all bikes/infantry having Obsec, advancing 20" onto an objective and stealing it from a min-man squad of something random from a soup detachment is a real threat you can absolutely do, and may very well win you a game. Not only that, but thinks like the ITC format don't award max points if you table an opponent, so being able to quickly take objectives is a powerful ability.
Exactly. ITC Champs missions are each turn: +1 if you killed a unit, +1 if you held an objective, +1 if you killed more units than your opponent, +1 if you held more (and a usually impossible +1 for something special). You have 2 points easily with bikes, and with the difficulties in killing them it's quite likely you'll get "killed more" as well (this is a similar reason to why gunlines actually rule progressive scoring games despite intentions to the contrary). If you need objective holders, 180 pts gives you a guard battalion. Additionally, a 3-man squad of bikes can surround an objective with 2" spacing and keep anything else from claiming it short of charging them.
But not everyone plays those missions. Many just use the BRB ones. You need to build your list and when we talk about building a list, say what mission types so others dont misunderstand.
Mr. Funktastic wrote: Anyone else have an opinion on Salvo Launchers? Looking back at them I can see maybe sticking 1 launcher in a unit of 3 or even give the SC one since even though he hits on 3+ he'll reroll 1's anyway to help mitigate it. 1 launcher and 2 Hurricane Bolters in a 3 bike unit sounds fairly balanced especially in a TAC pure Custodes list. Curious to hear people's opinions on this.
Even in a pure bike army I find them suspect. I did 20 bikes, 4 being salvo for anti tank. They did nothing that game
stratigo wrote: Here's what a bloodletter bomb is. 30 bloodletters with a herald in support. It will kill, statistically, a jetbike squad.
Now we're talking a 294 point (minimum) unit dedicated to CC, so you cost more than the bike squad. Lets assume that they summon/deepstrike in, and make the charge (+1 attack):
30 Bloodletters (WS2+): 60 attacks/50 hits/16.7 wounds/8.33 unsaved. That ups to 12 wounds if we assume that half of the unsaved wounds were 6's to wound.
Herald: 5 attacks/4.2 hits/1.4 wounds/0.46 unsaved.
So yes, on average you can get 13 wounds on a 12 wounds squad, assuming you make the charge and didn't take excessive casulties (on average you lose 2.7 from overwatch, meaning you do 0.38 less unsaved wounds).
For comparison, lets do a squad of 3 bikes shooting hurricanes at the bomb: 36 shots/30 hits/20 wounds/13.3 unsaved
Then, assuming they charge: 12 attacks/10 hits/9.72 wounds/6.5 unsaved. 19.8 dead bloodletters in total. In CC you'll probably kill a bike in return, but that's assuming they charged you at all and didn't just shoot with another squad.
@Audustum
Manticores/Hemlocks
The farthest your opponent can keep a manticore from you T1 is 55 inches, in vanguard strike (actually, more like 49 cause the tank is about 6" long). So if you advance T1, you'll be able to shoot T2 assuming you deploy forward. Hemlocks do 2xD3 hits, average 4, for 3.33 wounds which becomes 3.33 damage. If it also successfully smited, it killed a single bike.
Leman russes are the same as manticores regarding damage to bikes on their battle cannon, if they have plasma sponsons they do an additional 0.67 wounds (1.33 if they overcharged).
The reason why the bikes are nasty when is because their counters are unlikely to be spammed by your opponent in a TAC list. There is a limit to how many bloodletter bombs you can take. How many manticores did your opponent take and still be able to screen their tanks? The ideal weapon to kill our jetbikes is is a S7+ 4 dmg weapon with at least -2 AP. There aren't many of those that can be spammed while also being able to deal with green tide or cultists. And while those counters to bikes definitely exist, the rest of the army isn't doing meaningful damage at all (rapid-firing guard squad w/FRFSRF does 0.5 wounds).
If you are facing demons, multiple letter bombs is actually quite easy to pull off. Each one makes the herald more valuable, as you only need the one herald.
As for tanks? This is guard. You can get around 6 to 7 tanks and still have a significant number of screens. And the tank math is worse as they will be a number of commanders, a number of rerolls of 1, and maybe pask. A guard gun line very efficiently cleans up bikers fast enough that the return punch on turn 2 doesn’t kill enough
I haven’t matched out any eldar matchups or played them, so I don’t know how well eldar manage, though I imagine dark reapers murder you like they do all else
This actually sums up what I was gonna say, but I'll add:
1. Hurricane Bolters or even our anti-tank missile don't do much to Manticores. You need to get in melee.
2. You likely can't move 20" towards them because you'll slam into enemy units (assuming you went 2nd).
3. Even if you can move 20", dropping yourself in the veritable middle of the board probably isn't wise.
4. To answer your question, you should anticipate 3-7 Manticores (each one is cheaper than a bike squad at about 133 points per Manticore, so in theory he could afford 2 per bike squad). Infantry are 4 PPM. Screens will be everywhere.
I believe one of the regimental bonuses let's the Manticores re-roll 1's if they don't move so should probably add that in too.
EDIT: When I maths it it's 2.71 wounds per Manticore with re-rolling 1's. 4 Manticores almost wipe a squad a turn (10.93) for 532 points.
Mr. Funktastic wrote: Anyone else have an opinion on Salvo Launchers? Looking back at them I can see maybe sticking 1 launcher in a unit of 3 or even give the SC one since even though he hits on 3+ he'll reroll 1's anyway to help mitigate it. 1 launcher and 2 Hurricane Bolters in a 3 bike unit sounds fairly balanced especially in a TAC pure Custodes list. Curious to hear people's opinions on this.
Even in a pure bike army I find them suspect. I did 20 bikes, 4 being salvo for anti tank. They did nothing that game
I've had mine pop a tank. I've get 14 bikes currently (2 of them forgeworld that I am running as shield captains). They're good at setting up heavy tanks to be killed and killing lighter tanks. But I'm not sure they are worth 15 more points per model sadly.
stratigo wrote: If you are facing demons, multiple letter bombs is actually quite easy to pull off. Each one makes the herald more valuable, as you only need the one herald.
Sure it can be done, but how often is it done? You're getting into the realm of tailoring now
As for tanks? This is guard. You can get around 6 to 7 tanks and still have a significant number of screens. And the tank math is worse as they will be a number of commanders, a number of rerolls of 1, and maybe pask. A guard gun line very efficiently cleans up bikers fast enough that the return punch on turn 2 doesn’t kill enough
Normal bikers don't have 2+/4++, 4 wounds, hurricane bolters, or Fly. How many of those tanks are punishers (1.1 wounds w/BS4+ firing twice)? How many are wyverns (0.8 wounds)?
I haven’t matched out any eldar matchups or played them, so I don’t know how well eldar manage, though I imagine dark reapers murder you like they do all else
Reaper launchers do a flat 3 dmg, so it takes 2 unsaved wounds to kill each bike. A squad of 3 (81 points) on average does 3 shots/2 hits/1.33 wounds/0.67 unsaved/2 damage. A bike kills 1.1 dark reapers at 24", or 2.2 at 12" with hurrican bolters.
My point is merely that bikes are extremely tough, even against things which would normally counter their unit type. They have a unique profile that makes them extremely difficult to kill while putting out a large amount of damage. I think for these reasons you're going to see outrider detachments allied into soup alot, and potentially a few pure bike lists. I apologize if I'm coming across as a jerk.
Ordana wrote: In my opinion in a competitive environment if your sitting on an objective with Custodes your doing it wrong. They are way to expensive for that.
Bring a detachment of something cheap (IG obviously, but AdMech, SoB or Marines can do it aswell) to sit on Objectives while your Custodes go balls to the wall and force your opponent to deal with them rather then your softer Objective units.
Depends on your format. With all bikes/infantry having Obsec, advancing 20" onto an objective and stealing it from a min-man squad of something random from a soup detachment is a real threat you can absolutely do, and may very well win you a game. Not only that, but thinks like the ITC format don't award max points if you table an opponent, so being able to quickly take objectives is a powerful ability.
Exactly. ITC Champs missions are each turn: +1 if you killed a unit, +1 if you held an objective, +1 if you killed more units than your opponent, +1 if you held more (and a usually impossible +1 for something special). You have 2 points easily with bikes, and with the difficulties in killing them it's quite likely you'll get "killed more" as well (this is a similar reason to why gunlines actually rule progressive scoring games despite intentions to the contrary). If you need objective holders, 180 pts gives you a guard battalion. Additionally, a 3-man squad of bikes can surround an objective with 2" spacing and keep anything else from claiming it short of charging them.
But not everyone plays those missions. Many just use the BRB ones. You need to build your list and when we talk about building a list, say what mission types so others dont misunderstand.
Depends on your format.
It wasn meant for everyone since you couple seem to be talking about different formats (which is 100% ok).
Oh, totally. There's like a million formats and it's all super confusing in general. I'd love to see a standardized format eventually, but it's unlikely.
Wulfey wrote: And if the target has an invul save, then the melta missile is much worse than that math indicates.
Most tanks don't. Even Imperial Knights are just a 5++.
That said, the bonus is minimal so I'd say not worth 1.5x the cost.
Eldar, custodes, Tzeentch, primarchs, assassins ... I mean I can think of stacks of common competitive units that have a 4++. Anything with a 4++ makes the melta missile into a complete waste.
Wulfey wrote: And if the target has an invul save, then the melta missile is much worse than that math indicates.
Most tanks don't. Even Imperial Knights are just a 5++.
That said, the bonus is minimal so I'd say not worth 1.5x the cost.
Eldar, custodes, Tzeentch, primarchs, assassins ... I mean I can think of stacks of common competitive units that have a 4++. Anything with a 4++ makes the melta missile into a complete waste.
Right, which is why I specified tanks in my answer. Tanks being the primary reason you want an anti-tank missile.
Cephalobeard wrote: I respect your insight, but most OP thing in the game is sensationalism at it's best.
Counters?
Psychic powers in general
Smite
Nurgle mortal wounds
High volume of fire, 2d+ weapons (avenger knights, etc)
Large hordes
Literally any screen
Eldar, specifically denying invulns and dark reapers
Tzeentch Daemons like Flamers and exalted Flamers
I, genuinely, could go on for a very long time.
They're good.
Compared to everything else Custodes have, amazing.
That doesn't mean they're Op because everything else is mediocre.
Btw, exactly what kind of Eldar can deny Invul (aside from Psychic Mortal Wounds)?
They reduce them, by 1. With jinx. Giving bikes only a 5++, and things like CSM can deny them entirely. I was being relatively vague on purpose because the argument was somewhat pedantic.
How does this look. Thinking of bringing it to a 650 pt tournament where the beta character rules are not in effect? Plan is to have the ogryn bodyguard march up the board screening the shield captains who then pop out and murderise. Guardsmen are there to fill points and hold objectives
The tanks seem overpriced but the Dreadnoughts might have potential if you deep strike them and force your opponent to answer them? They can definitely stand to get a bit of a points drop though. FW is taking suggestions for improvement and none of this is final so I would probably email them and let them know what they can do to balance it better.
So, i got to the first unit... then realised the Spear costs 75 points.. at which point i started choking and sighing at the same time.
Also, i know they have the note at the bottom saying "Designer's Note: Further wargear options and Dreadnoughts will be available with the full rules in a future Imperial Armour volume!" but, why is the Heavy Flamer included in the stats box when it can't even take one right now???????
on one hand, I'd like better options. On the other, I don't like forge world as the source of the best options. Because they are both poor at balance and hilariously expensive, and GW should never rely on forge world to patch holes in their armies.
stratigo wrote: Well... the tank is over 300 points. That said, a heavy 8 gun is a bit silly.
I was hoping for around 200.
200 points of missile launcher equivalent for 70pts, and a flying predator hull with a +130pt price hike.
I can't help but feel they are missing the point of the points split.
I mean, 
I am also running a mix of 
