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I don’t think guardian Custodes can take Vexillas now.

Three man squads are pretty good - I take one storm shield to tank wounds.

No, the Shield-Captain of the Custodian Guard squad of the Index is not the Shield-Captain of the Codex.

The first Shield-Captain was a sargeant version for the Custodian Guard that no longer exist. So theres no "index" dathasleet for Shield-Captain.

In the other hand you are right about the Vexilla, by RAW, as it is a legal equipement option for the Custidoan Guard squad. That will be FAQ'ed i'm sure.

BrianDavion wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
[

I think If I was going to teleport a strike unit into enemy lines I'd wanna go with wardens squad. slightly more killy.

or allerus termies and save on the CPs.

It kind-of depends. If you aren't running a pure custodes list you only have a 5++, and the storm shields look a lot more tempting. Wardens don't have access to them. With the Vexillia in the squad you get the same number of attacks per model, but also get to reroll moral tests and have access to storm shields.

I also think I'd argue that the lack of a vexila in squad option in the codex means you can't put one in a squad anymore.I know I'd call shinnagens if someone tried that. we need to use some common sense in this regard. and accept that custodes as of the new codex are a totally differant beast from their index rules.

Shenanigans it may be but that's actually probably legal based on the flow chart GW released. Gotta blame the parent company for this one.

What do people think about the shield captain in allarus armor? It get access to some neat relics. Deep strike, an extra wound, and the grenade launch for 20 pts more than the normal shield captain

No one is "that guy".

It's completely legal and GW wrote the exception to specifically allow it.

Oberron wrote:
What do people think about the shield captain in allarus armor? It get access to some neat relics. Deep strike, an extra wound, and the grenade launch for 20 pts more than the normal shield captain

All of the shield-captains are great value, but whenever I look at the option of taking a foot captain I always end up gravitating towards all the benefits of the bike-captain instead, for only 20/40 points more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
No one is "that guy".

It's completely legal and GW wrote the exception to specifically allow it.

No one is arguing it isn't technically legal. It doesn't have to be illegal to be a poor sporting abuse of GW's system.

And the general consensus is that it it just that. Your opposing opinion is duly noted.

5 of the top 8 lists at LVO had farseers with index weapon stacks. So yeah, you can put the vexila on your custodian foot troops.

BrianDavion wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
[

I think If I was going to teleport a strike unit into enemy lines I'd wanna go with wardens squad. slightly more killy.

or allerus termies and save on the CPs.

It kind-of depends. If you aren't running a pure custodes list you only have a 5++, and the storm shields look a lot more tempting. Wardens don't have access to them. With the Vexillia in the squad you get the same number of attacks per model, but also get to reroll moral tests and have access to storm shields.

I also think I'd argue that the lack of a vexila in squad option in the codex means you can't put one in a squad anymore.I know I'd call shinnagens if someone tried that. we need to use some common sense in this regard. and accept that custodes as of the new codex are a totally differant beast from their index rules.

I agree with using common sense, but I think that went out the window when you can have an Eldar Autarch with a jetbike, scatter laser, laser lance, eldar missile launcher, banshee mask.

Wulfey wrote:
5 of the top 8 lists at LVO had farseers with index weapon stacks. So yeah, you can put the vexila on your custodian foot troops.

I definetly dont consider the two remotely the same.
The vexilla isn't just a weapon option that is removed because it lacks a model. Its a model that got moved to a completely separate unit.

Technically it might be legal but if it becomes a 'normal' thing I fully expect GW to change it or TO's to house rule it.

The idea behind the flowchart is to make it so that previously built and painted models aren't trash when the new codex comes out. GW doesn't want people to have to cut their models up when new rules come out (yes, some exceptions here and there but this is the general intent). Not having to cut the vexilas off your guard squads you built last year is well within the intents of the codex/index flow chart.

Wulfey wrote:
The idea behind the flowchart is to make it so that previously built and painted models aren't trash when the new codex comes out. GW doesn't want people to have to cut their models up when new rules come out (yes, some exceptions here and there but this is the general intent). Not having to cut the vexilas off your guard squads you built last year is well within the intents of the codex/index flow chart.

you don't have to cut the vexila because the min squad size was reduced.

Spartacus wrote:

Oberron wrote:
What do people think about the shield captain in allarus armor? It get access to some neat relics. Deep strike, an extra wound, and the grenade launch for 20 pts more than the normal shield captain

All of the shield-captains are great value, but whenever I look at the option of taking a foot captain I always end up gravitating towards all the benefits of the bike-captain instead, for only 20/40 points more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
No one is "that guy".

It's completely legal and GW wrote the exception to specifically allow it.

No one is arguing it isn't technically legal. It doesn't have to be illegal to be a poor sporting abuse of GW's system.

And the general consensus is that it it just that. Your opposing opinion is duly noted.

If you believe you can be poor sporting by giving a custodian guard troop unit an additional attack per model, when the models themselves are never going to be used beyond a 3x3 troop tax in a Batallion, I quite literally have no idea what to tell you.

It's not even "abusing" anything. You're just playing by the rules. It's not a wound dodging nightmare blob, it's a minor increase in attacks on a worthless unit.

Your implication is silly and serves no purpose.

Edit: Better watch out for that real powergamer who spent 1300pts on 2x10 Custodes and a Vexilla in each, as well as a Vexilla next to them so he can really that guy and poor sport the heck out of everyone with those really terrifying tactical decisions he's gonna be able to make now.

Vexilla and Bullgryns for 2++ covering the advance of 3 bike-captains (1-2 can deepstrike), with a lot of scouts (3x5) for battlefield coverage and alpha strike denial, assassins and a couple BA Captains for backdoor charges and a small battalion of IG with psyker, commader and 3 squads of infantry for deepstrike requirements, strategem and extra CP.

That’s how I will field custodes during local tournament in 2 weeks...

Initialy thought about vertus praetors, but feel like abusing character targeting rules before they change them.

Wulfey wrote:
The idea behind the flowchart is to make it so that previously built and painted models aren't trash when the new codex comes out. GW doesn't want people to have to cut their models up when new rules come out (yes, some exceptions here and there but this is the general intent). Not having to cut the vexilas off your guard squads you built last year is well within the intents of the codex/index flow chart.

You would not have had to do that even without the flowchart because vexilas are still a valid unit as modeled and the minimum squad size was reduced for custodian guard.

Here is what is strange. I asked this question over on the Custodes facebook group. Almost EVERYONE is saying the flowchart disallows all the old options, even the "sword without shield" option, which is the most obviously legal one of the bunch.

It's odd how two groups can see things so differently.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

Spartacus wrote:

Oberron wrote:
What do people think about the shield captain in allarus armor? It get access to some neat relics. Deep strike, an extra wound, and the grenade launch for 20 pts more than the normal shield captain

All of the shield-captains are great value, but whenever I look at the option of taking a foot captain I always end up gravitating towards all the benefits of the bike-captain instead, for only 20/40 points more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
No one is "that guy".

It's completely legal and GW wrote the exception to specifically allow it.

No one is arguing it isn't technically legal. It doesn't have to be illegal to be a poor sporting abuse of GW's system.

And the general consensus is that it it just that. Your opposing opinion is duly noted.

If you believe you can be poor sporting by giving a custodian guard troop unit an additional attack per model, when the models themselves are never going to be used beyond a 3x3 troop tax in a Batallion, I quite literally have no idea what to tell you.

It's not even "abusing" anything. You're just playing by the rules. It's not a wound dodging nightmare blob, it's a minor increase in attacks on a worthless unit.

Your implication is silly and serves no purpose.

Edit: Better watch out for that real powergamer who spent 1300pts on 2x10 Custodes and a Vexilla in each, as well as a Vexilla next to them so he can really that guy and poor sport the heck out of everyone with those really terrifying tactical decisions he's gonna be able to make now.

look you can justify it via your rules lawyery crap all you like but you sir are being THAT GUY. it's patently obvious the intent behind the rules. blatently obvious the intent is to make vexilla's a stand alone unit (just like all banner carriers are now) the intent is crystal clear here

I'm not tiles lawyering anything, it's allowed. I gave you the flow chart. If anything, your arguing against it purely for emotional reasons is "that guy".

It's GARBAGE. There's no reason to do it or be concerned with it, but you can absolutely do it unless GW states otherwise in the FAQ, which they very well may.

Can we move on to another topic of actual tactical worth instead of bickering on who's the bigger jerk over 1 attack on a troop choice?

I've been considering a unit of Terminators. I pick up my 15 Bikes tomorrow, but will likely grab 1-2 boxes of terminators as well to test them. Their main draw, to me, is their Stratagem allowing them to shoot characters. Good be a decent snipe? I just still can't stomach the price.

They just previewed some new spears for 30k Custodes. I'm REALLY hoping they get 40k rules. Having a meltagun-spear on our guys would go a long way to helping us punch armor.

Cephalobeard, Crossing over into what you are thinking, if those spears do get 40k rules (and can be taken on the terminators) imagine being able to snipe characters with a meltagun, and possibly that relic grenade launcher. Just brutal.

 cuda1179 wrote:
They just previewed some new spears for 30k Custodes. I'm REALLY hoping they get 40k rules. Having a meltagun-spear on our guys would go a long way to helping us punch armor.

Cephalobeard, Crossing over into what you are thinking, if those spears do get 40k rules (and can be taken on the terminators) imagine being able to snipe characters with a meltagun, and possibly that relic grenade launcher. Just brutal.

I'd love it. Honestly, we really need to hear from Forgeworld about a large number of things. I'm still wanting to deep strike two Telemon.

 cuda1179 wrote:
Here is what is strange. I asked this question over on the Custodes facebook group. Almost EVERYONE is saying the flowchart disallows all the old options, even the "sword without shield" option, which is the most obviously legal one of the bunch.

It's odd how two groups can see things so differently.

Because you can't. Theres no Index Dathasleet for a Shield Captain. There was a sargeant option called Shield-Captain for the Custodian Guard that no longer exists. But that is NOT the same as the Shield-Captain Dathasleet of the Codex.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
They just previewed some new spears for 30k Custodes. I'm REALLY hoping they get 40k rules. Having a meltagun-spear on our guys would go a long way to helping us punch armor.

Cephalobeard, Crossing over into what you are thinking, if those spears do get 40k rules (and can be taken on the terminators) imagine being able to snipe characters with a meltagun, and possibly that relic grenade launcher. Just brutal.

I'd love it. Honestly, we really need to hear from Forgeworld about a large number of things. I'm still wanting to deep strike two Telemon.

To be honest I think that if Custodes are in range of a tank to shoot it with Meltas they are in range to charge and kill it on meele. If Custodes had cheaper transport options to deliver those melta-lances than a Land Raider, sure, but I'm don't know.
I think "plasma" lances would be better. But thats maybe because plasma is jus better than melta, but even if it wasn't, I believe the job that melta is supposed to do, you can do it better in meele.

I'm starting to dabble in custodes a bit and am thinking I'll probably have 2 shield captains on bikes. Would you guys bother to pump both of them up to 3++ with relics and use the reroll strat on them? That's 5 CP for two rock-hard characters, but you're missing out on a lot of the other amazing strats. Not sure if that's the way to go, but it sounds fun!

MilkmanAl wrote:
I'm starting to dabble in custodes a bit and am thinking I'll probably have 2 shield captains on bikes. Would you guys bother to pump both of them up to 3++ with relics and use the reroll strat on them? That's 5 CP for two rock-hard characters, but you're missing out on a lot of the other amazing strats. Not sure if that's the way to go, but it sounds fun!

Many people say that the 5+++ WT is the best one, in the Shield-Captain with the 3++ bike. But I don't know, I prefer the -1 to hit. Yeah, as a character, you want it to be protected by others, so he can't be shoot at. But actually, I prefer the idea of the Shield-Captain tanking the wounds for the squads of bikes behind him. Like a Distraction Carnifex.

Considering the bolters on their spears/axes do 2 damage a piece and with the AP -3 on the grenade launchers likely forcing a character to use their invulnerable save, I think with good rolls a squad of 4 or 5 can outright kill a character with the Inescapable Vengeance startagem or at the very least cripple them heavily. Even if they live you can still charge them to finish the job, or even if they fail the charge, you can always use a Tanglefoot Grenade on their movement phase to prevent them from fleeing too far. I think the Allarus have solid potential, even outside of character hunting they'll be the bane of your opponent's backfield given that their great anti-infantry shooting and their axes can threaten almost any heavy support your opponent has camping in their deployment, especially if you multi-charge their units if you decide to Unleash the Lions to screw with their shooting. And that's not even mentioning how tough they are and the amount of shooting it would take to totally remove them, shooting that's not going to your Vertus Praetors to let them cause even more havoc on your opponent. This way they can be good complements to the jetbikes by providing precise additional high threat pressure on your opponent's high value units through their native deep strike at the same time your jetbikes are in range to shoot/charge.

 Galas wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
Here is what is strange. I asked this question over on the Custodes facebook group. Almost EVERYONE is saying the flowchart disallows all the old options, even the "sword without shield" option, which is the most obviously legal one of the bunch.

It's odd how two groups can see things so differently.

Because you can't. Theres no Index Dathasleet for a Shield Captain. There was a sargeant option called Shield-Captain for the Custodian Guard that no longer exists. But that is NOT the same as the Shield-Captain Dathasleet of the Codex.

.

I'm probably going to concede the Shield Captain argument. Not like I was going to use it anyway, and it was the most dubious point. I am surprised that the Facebook group overwhelmingly feels that guardians can't take take a sword without a shield. A few people literally said that the "legacy index options" don't allow obsolete weapons options at all I mean, WTF? what do they think it's for? I even pointed out the autocannon dreadnought and ax wielding commissar as actual GW examples.

Yeah, in those cases that facebook group was wrong.

Lemondish wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
The idea behind the flowchart is to make it so that previously built and painted models aren't trash when the new codex comes out. GW doesn't want people to have to cut their models up when new rules come out (yes, some exceptions here and there but this is the general intent). Not having to cut the vexilas off your guard squads you built last year is well within the intents of the codex/index flow chart.

You would not have had to do that even without the flowchart because vexilas are still a valid unit as modeled and the minimum squad size was reduced for custodian guard.

Would a Vexila equipped Custodian Guard still be a Custodian Guard unit entry in the new Dex? No. It would be a Vexila holder that is a new and separate unit.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
No one is "that guy".

It's completely legal and GW wrote the exception to specifically allow it.

Dude, it's obvious you're that guy.

"Woohoo I get to abuse a rule for a week before it's faqed out! Look how amazing I am. I'm totally gonna crush those noobs".

I'd suggest referring the "you are TFG" "loopholes!" argument to a separate YMDC thread.

IN THREAD GENERAL WARNING TIME!

RULE #1 - MANDATORY, NOT IN ANY WAY OPTIONAL.

Back on track with things...

What about DSing in an Allarus Vexilus Praetor with -1 to hit bubble near the Shield Capt on bike with -1 to hit relic in front of another squad of bikes? If you want to go distraction carnifex, those guys could tank a massive amount of firepower.

To add, it really wouldn't be that much to add a supreme command detachment to an army with 3 shield captains on bikes. One with the -1 to hit relic, two others, and then using the Praetor with banner. Wouldn't be TOO points heavy but would be fantastic tankiness since the front bike would block for the rear two bikes and Praetor, being they're all characters. A -2 to hit on a tank character would neuter a bunch of armies.