Grimskul wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/12/02/powerful-new-shield-host-rules-cement-the-adeptus-custodes-as-the-true-elites-of-humanity/

Custodes word gumbo continues....

Is this GW's way of trying to show off how they have super long names? xD

I also like how they already have a typo where the relic spear hits at strength 2, not Strength PLUS two.

Yeah, I saw that too. That's funny.

These look good though. I like most of them and I like that we get two stances to pick from for our fighting styles.

As well as the hilarious relic error, they also talk about Dread Host but then go on to show Aquilan Shield rules. Is this the most error-laden preview ever?

 Grimskul wrote:

Hilariously, it makes them weaker than a character grot Makari, who hits at S3. Truly the Emperor's finest!

You're not going to ruin Pillowhands McVigilant for me, no sir.

Twilight Pathways wrote:
As well as the hilarious relic error, they also talk about Dread Host but then go on to show Aquilan Shield rules. Is this the most error-laden preview ever?

I don't think that's an error. The Dread Host part seems to be just dropping a tidbit about them while the preview is meant to be a different Shield-Host. At least, that's how I read it.

Solar watch warlord trait turned out like in my homebrew 9th Ed Codex write up...cool stuff. Access to advance and charge is always very welcome, even if it's just one unit.

The swiftsilver talon typo is so on brand for GW it's almost endearing.

These look fine and with the magna Imperator fighting stance the leaks seem really solid, even to me. So I stand corrected. But I'm still salty about the axes.

So is it legal to presume that all spears are now S2? Swords and boards it is!

It seems to me to be implying you can revert to the shield host with the 4+++ vs mortals at the start of the game if you prefer it over the one you chose, which is an interesting mechanic if true, and vastly improves the faction vs MW by letting you not have to commit to it until you see the matchup.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Even GW surely knows that non-FW Custodes are not that great and haven't been for a long time (i.e. well back into the time 1-1.5 years ago when this book was being written). I find it hard to believe they're not going to see significant improvements.

Every few codexes though, they produce a dud.

Never know if yours is going to be one

For sure. But it's pretty rare these days. I wouldn't assume it's going to happen until we have the full rules. The shield host rules for example seem to be a large upgrade on the old ones.

2D axes is pathetic and seems very likely to be true at this point, but that doesn't mean the book as a whole is going to be garbage.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So is it legal to presume that all spears are now S2? Swords and boards it is!

Yes all spears are gonna have S2 and also all Custodes will have 1 wound and T 1...

 nordsturmking wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So is it legal to presume that all spears are now S2? Swords and boards it is!

Yes all spears are gonna have S2 and also all Custodes will have 1 wound and T 1...

I'm pretty sure he was joking, but it's hard to tell at this point.

S2 relic spear is obviously a typo. The relic seems lackluster still.

It is an obvious typo, and I was joking, but in the meanwhile, until new books are shown, or it is told to us, there are people in YMDC that will argue about it. It's a seriously stupid leak. I get a leak of "hey heres a new mechanic!" but this is so obviously half butted and shows such a lack of DGAF, that it's laughable.

Audustum wrote:

superninja_834 wrote:
well, more leaks

Little Kitten and mr.useless(hint: the one with s7 weapon) now has shieldhost keyword

Sister with framer now inflator, even inflatable on vehicle

Banner:
6' characters and core light cover
6' characters and core a + 1
6' characters and core dense cover

Could only include one captain per detachment,
Ok to have different types of captain
Like bike captain plus termi captain for a battalion

Shhhhh

Thank you!

Mr. Useless getting Shield-Host is nice. Still not sure he turns into Mr. Useful but hey, at least he won't break things now (I bet Trajann gets a rule to not break but also not benefit from Shield-Hosts as an aside).

I don't think 'only 1 Captain' is an issue when we can double-up with different kinds of Captains still. Easy enough.

I am intrigued by the Light Cover flag. There's a thread on YMDC from awhile ago about whether Light Cover stacks, but if you take the position that it does...Storm Shield + Flag + Actual Light Cover would be pretty freaking hard to shift (AP-3 would still be a 2+ save).

Sisters with flamer being infiltrator and making their Rhino's infiltrate is cash money.

EDIT: Fezzik, Twilight, Ordana and Wise, there are literally fresh leaks above you!

the description was like "treated like being in a light cover" so it does not stack. Problem for custodes is never in the defense, attack and mobility are the more critical.

superninja_834 wrote:

Audustum wrote:

superninja_834 wrote:
well, more leaks

Little Kitten and mr.useless(hint: the one with s7 weapon) now has shieldhost keyword

Sister with framer now inflator, even inflatable on vehicle

Banner:
6' characters and core light cover
6' characters and core a + 1
6' characters and core dense cover

Could only include one captain per detachment,
Ok to have different types of captain
Like bike captain plus termi captain for a battalion

Shhhhh

Thank you!

Mr. Useless getting Shield-Host is nice. Still not sure he turns into Mr. Useful but hey, at least he won't break things now (I bet Trajann gets a rule to not break but also not benefit from Shield-Hosts as an aside).

I don't think 'only 1 Captain' is an issue when we can double-up with different kinds of Captains still. Easy enough.

I am intrigued by the Light Cover flag. There's a thread on YMDC from awhile ago about whether Light Cover stacks, but if you take the position that it does...Storm Shield + Flag + Actual Light Cover would be pretty freaking hard to shift (AP-3 would still be a 2+ save).

Sisters with flamer being infiltrator and making their Rhino's infiltrate is cash money.

EDIT: Fezzik, Twilight, Ordana and Wise, there are literally fresh leaks above you!

the description was like "treated like being in a light cover" so it does not stack. Problem for custodes is never in the defense, attack and mobility are the more critical.

Now see, according to the esteemed rules lawyers at YMDC it should!

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/796813.page

What would people's opinions be on Axes if they were Sx2 AP3 2D?

I have not seen anything, I'm just curious

So the new GSC "Crossfire" rule, is making me cry. They get that but we get this poorly written dross.

IHateNids wrote:What would people's opinions be on Axes if they were Sx2 AP3 2D?

I have not seen anything, I'm just curious

A lot better, because axes would be better than spears in every way. Which in my opinion would also not be good game design. The spear should have a place of usefulness.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:So the new GSC "Crossfire" rule, is making me cry. They get that but we get this poorly written dross.

Nah, cmon our stuff hasn't been bad so far....well except for the fact that the axes suck (in a vacuum, maybe there are some extra rules we haven't seen yet).

GSC really needed some love and that rule fits the army quite nicely. I'm glad they got something nice and fluffy.

Tiberias,

In all honesty, how many times did you need to read the katas before you understood the RAI/RAW?

Audustum wrote:

superninja_834 wrote:

Audustum wrote:

superninja_834 wrote:
well, more leaks

Little Kitten and mr.useless(hint: the one with s7 weapon) now has shieldhost keyword

Sister with framer now inflator, even inflatable on vehicle

Banner:
6' characters and core light cover
6' characters and core a + 1
6' characters and core dense cover

Could only include one captain per detachment,
Ok to have different types of captain
Like bike captain plus termi captain for a battalion

Shhhhh

Thank you!

Mr. Useless getting Shield-Host is nice. Still not sure he turns into Mr. Useful but hey, at least he won't break things now (I bet Trajann gets a rule to not break but also not benefit from Shield-Hosts as an aside).

I don't think 'only 1 Captain' is an issue when we can double-up with different kinds of Captains still. Easy enough.

I am intrigued by the Light Cover flag. There's a thread on YMDC from awhile ago about whether Light Cover stacks, but if you take the position that it does...Storm Shield + Flag + Actual Light Cover would be pretty freaking hard to shift (AP-3 would still be a 2+ save).

Sisters with flamer being infiltrator and making their Rhino's infiltrate is cash money.

EDIT: Fezzik, Twilight, Ordana and Wise, there are literally fresh leaks above you!

the description was like "treated like being in a light cover" so it does not stack. Problem for custodes is never in the defense, attack and mobility are the more critical.

Now see, according to the esteemed rules lawyers at YMDC it should!

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/796813.page

even if it could, from my experience , most ranged attack unleashed to custodes has at least s7 ap3, ap 4 is also commonly seen. Therefore buffing defense stat against small arms is kinda pointless. Many people simply give up shooting anything lesser than heavy bolter to custodes in causal game play.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Tiberias,

In all honesty, how many times did you need to read the katas before you understood the RAI/RAW?

Had to read the article twice. It's very wordy, sure and potentially quite confusing for new players just starting out.

The three katas we've seen so far are not bad though. The one with the stance which reduces pile in and consolidate moves by 2" is the standout for me. That's such a powerful ability.

So is our new stuff so far complicated at first glance? Absolutely. Is it bad? Absolutely not....again, except for the damn axes.

superninja_834 wrote:

Audustum wrote:

superninja_834 wrote:

Audustum wrote:

superninja_834 wrote:
well, more leaks

Little Kitten and mr.useless(hint: the one with s7 weapon) now has shieldhost keyword

Sister with framer now inflator, even inflatable on vehicle

Banner:
6' characters and core light cover
6' characters and core a + 1
6' characters and core dense cover

Could only include one captain per detachment,
Ok to have different types of captain
Like bike captain plus termi captain for a battalion

Shhhhh

Thank you!

Mr. Useless getting Shield-Host is nice. Still not sure he turns into Mr. Useful but hey, at least he won't break things now (I bet Trajann gets a rule to not break but also not benefit from Shield-Hosts as an aside).

I don't think 'only 1 Captain' is an issue when we can double-up with different kinds of Captains still. Easy enough.

I am intrigued by the Light Cover flag. There's a thread on YMDC from awhile ago about whether Light Cover stacks, but if you take the position that it does...Storm Shield + Flag + Actual Light Cover would be pretty freaking hard to shift (AP-3 would still be a 2+ save).

Sisters with flamer being infiltrator and making their Rhino's infiltrate is cash money.

EDIT: Fezzik, Twilight, Ordana and Wise, there are literally fresh leaks above you!

the description was like "treated like being in a light cover" so it does not stack. Problem for custodes is never in the defense, attack and mobility are the more critical.

Now see, according to the esteemed rules lawyers at YMDC it should!

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/796813.page

even if it could, from my experience , most ranged attack unleashed to custodes has at least s7 ap3, ap 4 is also commonly seen. Therefore buffing defense stat against small arms is kinda pointless. Many people simply give up shooting anything lesser than heavy bolter to custodes in causal game play.

That's the beauty of it! If it works, you're taking saves against AP-3 on a 2+. We're not boosting small arms defense: we're boosting anti-tank defense! You need AP-4 for your armor save to equal your invuln. You need AP-5 to actually force the invuln to be used as the better save.

 IHateNids wrote:
What would people's opinions be on Axes if they were Sx2 AP3 2D?

I have not seen anything, I'm just curious

Still pretty lame, honestly. They need to be 3 damage, that's the obvious way to give them a role, just like the obvious role for spears was to give them a sweep profile. But GW clearly didn't go in that direction, sadly.

yukishiro1 wrote:

 IHateNids wrote:
What would people's opinions be on Axes if they were Sx2 AP3 2D?

I have not seen anything, I'm just curious

Still pretty lame, honestly. They need to be 3 damage, that's the obvious way to give them a role, just like the obvious role for spears was to give them a sweep profile. But GW clearly didn't go in that direction, sadly.

We still have a LOT unseen. I know this is weird coming from a radical like me, but give it time. We could see specific units get sweep profiles, or it becomes a stratagem for wardens, who knows?

I do think S10 axes are kinda pointless though, we have no problems taking down anti-tank currently, our problems are anti-horde and power discrepancy between plastic and non plastic units. For instance, what good are Guardians now if Sag can just pop this sweep kata and do 5 s5 ap2 d1 attacks with their dagger, and still get their massive shooting?

It's also kinda odd that GW has basically just made us most costly Astartes. We have Chapter tactics now, Combat Doctrines, and basically the custodes equivalent of a Primaris Blade Guardian. I really don't want to play Marines. That's why I picked Custodes.

I'm still hoping I can use my basic custodian guard with shield and power fist...

After yesterday I'm in leak withdrawal. My brain can't handle not having new info to process.

I am still hopeful that Wardens will get some form of buff. Right now all the leaks tend to be troop changes or massive gameplay changes. Nothing about specific units or weapon profiles. I have no hope of anything FW, but I do hope we get something regarding Wardens or Bikes.

Whaaaaa? We get this gak and the Genestealer Cults get that super-cool crossfire ability? That thing is awesome!

ugh. Totally not happy about this :-(

Again, relax! This is MR. Hyperbole talking. We still have 90% of a codex unseen. We still half an edition to complain about the state of our faction.

Wait till you hear the 2.0 SM codexes rumors that are floating around.

leerm02 wrote:
Whaaaaa? We get this gak and the Genestealer Cults get that super-cool crossfire ability? That thing is awesome!

ugh. Totally not happy about this :-(

While Crossfire seems like a solid ability, it definitely looks like it'd give me a migraine. I think ours will be comparatively strong so this is O.K.

Audustum wrote:

leerm02 wrote:
Whaaaaa? We get this gak and the Genestealer Cults get that super-cool crossfire ability? That thing is awesome!

ugh. Totally not happy about this :-(

While Crossfire seems like a solid ability, it definitely looks like it'd give me a migraine. I think ours will be comparatively strong so this is O.K.

I'm all for patience and being practical, however this is just as bad as sky is falling. This blind optimism is silly. What we have is in ZERO way comparable in power to their +1 to wound, for almost all shooting from ambush. That's on top of their +1 to hit from ambush. Fancy them wounding us with auto-guns? Because that can happen now.

Assuming BS3+, +1 to-hit and to-wound, it would still take 8 auto guns in rapid fire range to do one wound.

That's if we keep our army wide 4++, which is likely gone according to the leaks. Also, this applies to EVERY shooting attack. So Grenade Launchers with Krak rounds are now hitting on 3s, and wound on 2s. Or their ACs now kill us extremely well. Missiles?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
That's if we keep our army wide 4++, which is likely gone according to the leaks.

Invuln save is irrelevant to that math.

See edits, I don't know why I didn't just make a new post.

Be honest, if Custodes had been given a +1 to wound on shooting ability you'd be way happier than the doctrines we've been given.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
See edits, I don't know why I didn't just make a new post.

Be honest, if Custodes had been given a +1 to wound on shooting ability you'd be way happier than the doctrines we've been given.

Maybe, but that really depends on the remaining Katas and shield host abilities. Also depends on whether we are keeping the 4++

Which honestly if the leak is true and our normal infantry does not get one extra wound, I can't see how they would justify removing the 4++.

Honestly? I just want really simple rules at this point.

I know I know, that's pretty much against the "spirit" of 9th edition and all that... but I was hoping that whatever new stuff we got was just nice and simple, easy to remember, didn't require a lot of fiddling with the be effective.

I'm not so much against the new kata thing, but right now it seems like: "okay, pick three things, now order those things, now pick one thing out of two, now remember that for next time because it will be on the test, now go back to your first choice..."

And the end result is like:

"Now your opponent misses one more time. Congrats!"

Like, it seems we are getting to the same place as we would if we kept our stuff nice and simple, with a few little bumps and adjustments here and there... only instead of making it super easy to be effective they are putting it behind a wall of nonsense that you have to memorize first.

I know, I know, I just need to wait until the dex is released, and then things will look different. Just wanted to vent a little is all.

Funny thing is: I generally LIKE 9th edition!

Well, good news then, because the new game change leak has them basically forcing objective camping to the back, and now you play secondaries. The leak from Auspex Tactics, and I only skimmed the video, seems to indicate they are making primaries less important, thus trying to negate the importance of killiness?

But the secondaries are kinda worthless for Custodes, so this would be an overall net nerf to us.

All I want is a massive across the board points drop now.

Guardians should cost roughly the same as Bladeguard, and Terminators slightly more. Bikes should be about 60ppm, given we may be losing our 4++.
This is basically the only thing I can hope for now, is a massive points drop.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
That's if we keep our army wide 4++, which is likely gone according to the leaks. Also, this applies to EVERY shooting attack. So Grenade Launchers with Krak rounds are now hitting on 3s, and wound on 2s. Or their ACs now kill us extremely well. Missiles?

4++ is still there

sadly, a mission custodes likely to fail

Thats more of a nerf to single infantry units being able to score points very easily for very little investment (i.e. lictors/pyrovores).

If you have 3 models in a troops unit you still succeed on a 4 or lower, and a 5 man squad of troops cannot fail.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Thats more of a nerf to single infantry units being able to score points very easily for very little investment (i.e. lictors/pyrovores).

If you have 3 models in a troops unit you still succeed on a 4 or lower, and a 5 man squad of troops cannot fail.

If you can still only attempt it once per turn, it does mean its basically unusable if you have a chance of failing it, so everyone that does it will have to be 5-strong troops or 6-strong others.

leerm02 wrote:
Honestly? I just want really simple rules at this point.

I know I know, that's pretty much against the "spirit" of 9th edition and all that... but I was hoping that whatever new stuff we got was just nice and simple, easy to remember, didn't require a lot of fiddling with the be effective.

I'm not so much against the new kata thing, but right now it seems like: "okay, pick three things, now order those things, now pick one thing out of two, now remember that for next time because it will be on the test, now go back to your first choice..."

And the end result is like:

"Now your opponent misses one more time. Congrats!"

Like, it seems we are getting to the same place as we would if we kept our stuff nice and simple, with a few little bumps and adjustments here and there... only instead of making it super easy to be effective they are putting it behind a wall of nonsense that you have to memorize first.

I know, I know, I just need to wait until the dex is released, and then things will look different. Just wanted to vent a little is all.

Funny thing is: I generally LIKE 9th edition!

I feel the same way, I enjoy 9th edition but would love a simpler rule instead of a complex fiddly rule. One of the best parts of playing my Custodes army currently is that it's simple and straightforward and easy to remember. The Katas look interesting but the "one-more-thing-to-remember" design of 40k isn't something I care for.

I think Custodes should get like double obsec on everyone with like a 5+++ default.
Make them fit their theme and wash everything out in the point crunch.

Slightly joking.

I think its quite possible that we get a rule that makes all models (perhaps infantry models) count double for objective scoring but perhaps we would then lose armywide obsec and just get it on our troops. It would be nice to incentivise guard a bit and army wide obsec is a little obnoxious for the opponent.

Nah, sisters already likely have Obsec as troops, and I'd rather pay 100 points for objective campers than 150. That's just me.

What good would it be if we suddenly lost our main defensive buff, but gained the ability to camp objectives better? 9th is about killing and moving. The days of us camping out and just winning on primaries is kinda over now.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Nah, sisters already likely have Obsec as troops, and I'd rather pay 100 points for objective campers than 150. That's just me.

What good would it be if we suddenly lost our main defensive buff, but gained the ability to camp objectives better? 9th is about killing and moving. The days of us camping out and just winning on primaries is kinda over now.

Will they give sisters obsec, though? They might well just give custodes obsec, as a way to incentivise the use of cusodes guard ( ie. choose between cheaper, non obsec units or more expensive guys with obsec/super obsec)

On the other hand, the references to fielding whole detachments of sisters do imply that thier is no "1:1 ratio" rule or similar restriction to how many you have, which is good.

also, i called the sisters troops thing like a month ago when the box contents were pushed out, yay me!

xerxeskingofking wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Nah, sisters already likely have Obsec as troops, and I'd rather pay 100 points for objective campers than 150. That's just me.

What good would it be if we suddenly lost our main defensive buff, but gained the ability to camp objectives better? 9th is about killing and moving. The days of us camping out and just winning on primaries is kinda over now.

Will they give sisters obsec, though? They might well just give custodes obsec, as a way to incentivise the use of cusodes guard ( ie. choose between cheaper, non obsec units or more expensive guys with obsec/super obsec)

On the other hand, the references to fielding whole detachments of sisters do imply that thier is no "1:1 ratio" rule or similar restriction to how many you have, which is good.

also, i called the sisters troops thing like a month ago when the box contents were pushed out, yay me!

They could have a 1:1 rule when it's not an ANATHEMA PSYKANA detachment or whatever their new keyword is.

I imagine Sisters troops have ObSec as do the Custodians. With our resident leaker (thank you!) saying 4++ stays, then I also think 3++ on the shields pulls through.

leerm02 wrote:
Honestly? I just want really simple rules at this point.

it seems like: "okay, pick three things, now order those things, now pick one thing out of two, now remember that for next time because it will be on the test, now go back to your first choice..."

And the end result is like: "Now your opponent misses one more time. Congrats!"

You're not alone. I had just bought about 1500 points of Custodes before these leaks. After reading the new rules, my Custodes are still in their boxes and might get ebayed for a different army. I have no interest in doing that much bookkeeping and homework during a game of 40k.

Yeah, I was on a big "fully converted custom faction" kick with my custodes, making all these crazy conversions and everything in anticipation for the new codex... and now I'm just not even working on them :-(

I'm really hoping we are overreacting to all this, but I also really want to stress that I don't want to play "Golden Mechanicus" either.

As someone that actually DOES play AdMech and Custodes.. I so so so so so can second that statement.
Playing Custodes is such joy im comparison to... that other thing.-

I do think it would be hilarious if the Katas were allowed to be done by the Mechs. A Telemon locking down it's target in melee would be a great move.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I do think it would be hilarious if the Katas were allowed to be done by the Mechs. A Telemon locking down it's target in melee would be a great move.

I'd really be somewhat disappointed if they didn't benefit the dreadnoughts, cause that sounds awsome.

It's obviously too early to say, but I'm really curius how the "optimal" lists for us will shift with the new codex. Right now it's shadowkeepers with a lot of dreads, which is cool but I hope the codex will open up new playstyles. Make terminators great again

I don't see the dreads getting core, or Obsec. Or the 4++. So I'd be surprised if the super-Naut lists of 8th survive into late 9th.

Ofcouse I could be completely wrong, and am likely far off the mark, but I don't think GW has shown a fondness for games dominated by heavy support. Like, at all. Elite Heavy, yes. But Heavy support? I honestly can't think of a single competitive list that is heavy support focused. I don't think the Triple Telemon list will survive.

But like I said, I likely am far off the mark.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I don't see the dreads getting core, or Obsec. Or the 4++. So I'd be surprised if the super-Naut lists of 8th survive into late 9th.

Ofcouse I could be completely wrong, and am likely far off the mark, but I don't think GW has shown a fondness for games dominated by heavy support. Like, at all. Elite Heavy, yes. But Heavy support? I honestly can't think of a single competitive list that is heavy support focused. I don't think the Triple Telemon list will survive.

But like I said, I likely am far off the mark.

Well, both the Galatus and Achillus dreads already have core right now. Only the Telemon doesn't have it, but that I can live with.

Is that confirmed that it's carrying over? I mean I trust you, I just hadn't heard that and the lack of confirmation had killed my hopes.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I honestly can't think of a single competitive list that is heavy support focused.

You ever hear of Grey Knights? Or Dark Eldar?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Is that confirmed that it's carrying over? I mean I trust you, I just hadn't heard that and the lack of confirmation had killed my hopes.

So far in 9th edition they have removed CORE from exactly ONE unit, which was the admech laschicken, and have not done any major rebalancing of the FW datasheets, only updating keywords and army wide rules.

Space marines dreads are also CORE, so its rather unlikely that they will remove it from ours, regular or FW

I think, for obsec, they should just make every model worth its Wounds characteristics so a Custodes would be 3 models, a space marine 2, and a guardsman 1. Then vehicles and monsters could threaten objectives in a way that would realistically represent their threat value. But still keeping troops as overriding any non-troops objective claimers regardless of model/wound count.

That... on first glance, doesnt feel that bad.
It gives elite armies a advantage in staying power since hordes deplete faster, but then again, with the recent changes elite armies get punished on the action front.
So...

Yeah, that means a squad of 5 bikes is basically Morty in terms of shifting. That seems broken. Also, that would need a massive points shift I think.

as the codex is coming ahead, this is the last delivery.

The unrevealed shoota kata:
A1 : 4 inches more for weapon range
A2: IF NOT advanced, infan shoot twice with their weapon(not all kinds of weapon)

Termi now has maximum of 6 per unit.Probably mvp unit in the new codex

Words saying one custodes infan now counted as three in terms of obsec.

superninja_834 wrote:
as the codex is coming ahead, this is the last delivery.

The unrevealed shoota kata:
A1 : 4 inches more for weapon range
A2: IF NOT advanced, infan shoot twice with their weapon(not all kinds of weapon)

Termi now has maximum of 6 per unit.Probably mvp unit in the new codex

Words saying one custodes infan now counted as three in terms of obsec.

A2 should just be part of their standard rules. Custodes are Astartes +1. Why don't they at the bare minimum also get Bolter Discipline?

superninja_834 wrote:
as the codex is coming ahead, this is the last delivery.

The unrevealed shoota kata:
A1 : 4 inches more for weapon range
A2: IF NOT advanced, infan shoot twice with their weapon(not all kinds of weapon)

Termi now has maximum of 6 per unit.Probably mvp unit in the new codex

Words saying one custodes infan now counted as three in terms of obsec.

Thank you, but no, I need more!

This sounds cute. If you were going to run lots of Sag guard, good one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

superninja_834 wrote:
as the codex is coming ahead, this is the last delivery.

The unrevealed shoota kata:
A1 : 4 inches more for weapon range
A2: IF NOT advanced, infan shoot twice with their weapon(not all kinds of weapon)

Termi now has maximum of 6 per unit.Probably mvp unit in the new codex

Words saying one custodes infan now counted as three in terms of obsec.

A2 should just be part of their standard rules. Custodes are Astartes +1. Why don't they at the bare minimum also get Bolter Discipline?

It's been said a couple times. We don't get Bolter Discipline because Astartes are so bolter focused, so ingrained to it in their 'culture', in a way Space Marines just aren't.

Just a quick question.
Are caladius grav Tanks worth it?
Because i realy like the Model, but they are f**** expensive money wise. Is it realy worth buying them?

superninja_834 wrote:
as the codex is coming ahead, this is the last delivery.

The unrevealed shoota kata:
A1 : 4 inches more for weapon range
A2: IF NOT advanced, infan shoot twice with their weapon(not all kinds of weapon)

Termi now has maximum of 6 per unit.Probably mvp unit in the new codex

Words saying one custodes infan now counted as three in terms of obsec.

That Kata seems the least appealing by far. Weapon range is mostly pointless and I have a suspicioon that the double shoot part of the Kata will be the new superior firing patterns.....meaning we'll probably lose the strat. If the Kata also only let's you double shoot rapid fire, it's kinda crappy to be honest.


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Gesundheit wrote:
Just a quick question.
Are caladius grav Tanks worth it?
Because i realy like the Model, but they are f**** expensive money wise. Is it realy worth buying them?

Imo if you like the model enough where you'd enjoy painting it and playing with it, then it is worth buying it.

Regarding gameplay: the caladius had its time in the sun in 8th Ed where they were played as a mobile shooting castle buffed by Trajann.
The meta has since shifted away from them since our dreadnoughts are better at contesting and holding the center of the board.

It's also impossible to say whether the caladius will be a good pick in the new codex. Now to avoid confusion: the cladadius won't be IN our new codex since it's Forgeworld, but I mean what synergies it might have with new codex rules, strats, character buffs etc.

So if the gameplay part is the deciding factor here, I'd wait until the codex drops.

The Caladius does not have core so it will no longer benefit from rerolls or banners in the new codex. This is a huge nerf to an already nerfed vehicle.

It was some of our only efficient long range firepower and has been continually getting blasted since the end of 8th and all through 9th.

I own 3 and while i do love them, i doubt when our new codex drops we are gonna be running 3 of them anymore.

I know it was originally intended for a strat to be given to them to replace their lost -2 to charge them ability, but whether we get it or not im not sure.

They need to drop down to like 180pts after the codex drops though since loss of rerolls and banner buffs is a huge nerf to them.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
The Caladius does not have core so it will no longer benefit from rerolls or banners in the new codex. This is a huge nerf to an already nerfed vehicle.

It was some of our only efficient long range firepower and has been continually getting blasted since the end of 8th and all through 9th.

I own 3 and while i do love them, i doubt when our new codex drops we are gonna be running 3 of them anymore.

I know it was originally intended for a strat to be given to them to replace their lost -2 to charge them ability, but whether we get it or not im not sure.

They need to drop down to like 180pts after the codex drops though since loss of rerolls and banner buffs is a huge nerf to them.

While all of that is true, we still simply do not know if there is going to be something in the new codex that might help them be useful again, even without CORE. So here's hoping.

I gotta be honest, this new kata tips the scales HEAVILY in favor of our FW infantry. Why take regular terminators when you can take FW ones that shoot their guns twice? Why take Guardians when 3 sag cost less, can do more, and count the same for obsec?

Finally, it seems like bikes are dead. No buffs, and no word on points drops.

Also, I'm kinda wondering if there will be any change to the way FGLTC works now in 9th? I was really expecting a change to that.

That is IF FW units get Katas.
I know, it would be absolutely ridiculous for them not to get it - but it's GW we're talking about.

After all, they might've balanced that kata around being able to shoot Sentinel Blades twice.

I don't see bikes going anywhere now too.
With the recent nerfs to already struggling Custodes actions, bikes are... just... not appealing.

On the Terminator front - I dont see how that affects Aquilons differently than Allarus? They have different jobs, character hunting (which we already could do better with Superior Fire Patterns, that's essentially a nerf for that) vs Horde Clearing (who the hell needs Terminators for that) vs Monster Killing (with fists UNLESS it has -1D somehow)

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I gotta be honest, this new kata tips the scales HEAVILY in favor of our FW infantry. Why take regular terminators when you can take FW ones that shoot their guns twice? Why take Guardians when 3 sag cost less, can do more, and count the same for obsec?

Finally, it seems like bikes are dead. No buffs, and no word on points drops.

Also, I'm kinda wondering if there will be any change to the way FGLTC works now in 9th? I was really expecting a change to that.

Regarding the new kata, I think it still very much depends on which weapons are included in its shoot twice clause. If it only includes rapid fire weapons it won't affect sagittarium at all and would be a nerf for Aquilon IF we lose superior firing patterns.

I know you love bikes, but don't write them off just now. We still need to see a lot of shield host rules and there are still 2 Katas to be revealed. Also relics, warlord traits and new strats could play a big role in their viability.

Don't forget: it only took one strat to make venatari viable and push them to one of our best units.

The only things we have seen zero for, and this is true for most factions I think, is new rules for FW units. GW seems to be flat out ignoring them. That being the case, if it's only RF weapons then Aquilons with storm bolters are a WAY better choice, getting 8 shots essentially. If it's not restricted, thats 2d6 auto-hitting heavy flamer with 12" range. If sags don't get it then it would be GW changing their trend of not mucking with FW.

I don't see a bright future for this faction. They've turned the simplest, new player friendly faction, into one of the more complicated rules bloated messes.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I gotta be honest, this new kata tips the scales HEAVILY in favor of our FW infantry. Why take regular terminators when you can take FW ones that shoot their guns twice? Why take Guardians when 3 sag cost less, can do more, and count the same for obsec?

Finally, it seems like bikes are dead. No buffs, and no word on points drops.

Also, I'm kinda wondering if there will be any change to the way FGLTC works now in 9th? I was really expecting a change to that.

Hang in there Mr. Doom-and-Gloom! Our very same leaker said Bikes are getting +1W, which means it takes 3 2 damage shots to kill them rather than 2. That's pretty significant. They're also keeping the 4++ according to him. From the CA2022 reveals, we also know Jetbikes can now perform additional secondary actions they didn't used to be able to (like the new Scramblers/ROD).

I think they've still got hope for some legs, but we'll need to see the stratagems.

Audustum wrote:


Hang in there Mr. Doom-and-Gloom! Our very same leaker said Bikes are getting +1W, which means it takes 3 2 damage shots to kill them rather than 2. That's pretty significant. They're also keeping the 4++ according to him. From the CA2022 reveals, we also know Jetbikes can now perform additional secondary actions they didn't used to be able to (like the new Scramblers/ROD).

I think they've still got hope for some legs, but we'll need to see the stratagems.

Finally, some semblance of positivity in here! I agree, honestly there's way too much we still don't know so it's way too early for anyone to start proclaiming "x is dead, we're a y army now" or "z rule looks underwhelming/bad, Custodes is dead" without any other kind of context and before seeing how it'll interact with all the other rules we might be getting. New codexes tend to turn internal metas on their head, so I'd hold off on all the pessimism until we have the codex for ourselves.

In addition, the leaks and common trends indicate Salvo Launchers should get the damage floor of melta weapons. That’s a huge boost to their consistency and would be our best way to handle Death Guard across the board.

Do you really think they are going to give bikes, which already cost almost 90 points per model, a weapon that does 1d3+3 damage? That would make bikes incredibly OP. I will await that with baited breath, thinking I can field all bike lists with Melta missiles.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Do you really think they are going to give bikes, which already cost almost 90 points per model, a weapon that does 1d3+3 damage? That would make bikes incredibly OP. I will await that with baited breath, thinking I can field all bike lists with Melta missiles.

I think our leaker already said they're getting the melta treatment in his first spill so yeah, looks like we're probably getting it!

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Do you really think they are going to give bikes, which already cost almost 90 points per model, a weapon that does 1d3+3 damage? That would make bikes incredibly OP. I will await that with baited breath, thinking I can field all bike lists with Melta missiles.

As opposed to a weapon with two profiles that can reroll wounds against vehicles that does d6 and got a patch strat to do 2d6 drop the lowest that now is in an edition where most similar weapons have been changed to 1d3 + 3 and dropping the reroll/option to pick the highest result? Yes.

Sources: This same leaker and the trend of every 9th edition codex released so far.

So can I take it that you agree our bikes would be ridiculous with d3+3 damage missiles? I mean, unless they radically nerf us in points, that platform shooting 24" Melta weapons would be silly. I can see d3+1, but be realistic.

And this isn't doom and gloom. Bikes are my favorite unit, and I would desperately like to play them again in form fashion. They likely won't see Katas, as Cav aren't infantry, but if they nerf costs, I don't see them being valuable, no matter what weapons they bring. They are already cost prohibitive.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Do you really think they are going to give bikes, which already cost almost 90 points per model, a weapon that does 1d3+3 damage? That would make bikes incredibly OP. I will await that with baited breath, thinking I can field all bike lists with Melta missiles.

the very opposite I am afraid. Salvo only got one shot, lost its rerolling wounds, not OP at all, more like UP. Bike used to be a perfect all arounder, anti-infan/anti-vehicle/self operating(reroll as standard). In the next codex it is more like a 2+/2+ flying thunderwolf cavalry who traded in his hammer for a one shot melta and d2 lance.

Damage 2 is the anchor around the faction's neck. Any army with any access to minus 1 damage becomes unassailable

It's wild that a melee focused army doesn't have access to any melee weapons higher then damage 2 on any of its dedicated plastic units, except a special character. The redemptor's a loner from space marines. Particularly because they'd gone back and upped the damage characteristic of so many weapons.

I honestly don't get it, maybe they'll give stategems to compensate. Maybe not

superninja_834 wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Do you really think they are going to give bikes, which already cost almost 90 points per model, a weapon that does 1d3+3 damage? That would make bikes incredibly OP. I will await that with baited breath, thinking I can field all bike lists with Melta missiles.

the very opposite I am afraid. Salvo only got one shot, lost its rerolling wounds, not OP at all, more like UP. Bike used to be a perfect all arounder, anti-infan/anti-vehicle/self operating(reroll as standard). In the next codex it is more like a 2+/2+ flying thunderwolf cavalry who traded in his hammer for a one shot melta and d2 lance.

The comparison to TWC is awfully reductive. Bikes move 4" faster, have fly, have 2 extra attacks base, hit on 2+, an extra toughness and wound, and have native ob sec. Also in comparing the d3+3 damage melta missile vs the current melta missile, the d3+3 damage one actually maths out better in most circumstances and they pull relatively even vs T8, even without the rerolling wounds vs vehicles, and they're straight up better vs Monsters. That consistent damage goes a loooong way. If anything it sounds like they made out at least slightly better than they are currently if they are indeed getting a 5th wound, d3+3 damage melta missiles, and consistent damage on their lances.

Mr. Funktastic wrote:

superninja_834 wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Do you really think they are going to give bikes, which already cost almost 90 points per model, a weapon that does 1d3+3 damage? That would make bikes incredibly OP. I will await that with baited breath, thinking I can field all bike lists with Melta missiles.

the very opposite I am afraid. Salvo only got one shot, lost its rerolling wounds, not OP at all, more like UP. Bike used to be a perfect all arounder, anti-infan/anti-vehicle/self operating(reroll as standard). In the next codex it is more like a 2+/2+ flying thunderwolf cavalry who traded in his hammer for a one shot melta and d2 lance.

The comparison to TWC is awfully reductive. Bikes move 4" faster, have fly, have 2 extra attacks base, hit on 2+, an extra toughtness and wound, and have native ob sec. Also in comparing the d3+3 damage melta missile vs the current melta missile, the d3+3 damage one actually maths out better in most circumstances and they pull relatively even vs T8, even without the rerolling wounds vs vehicles, and they're straight up better vs Monsters. That consistent damage goes a loooong way. If anything it sounds like they made out at least slightly better than they are currently if they are indeed getting a 5th wound, d3+3 damage melta missiles, and consistent damage on their lances.

If they're magna imeprator they can re-roll one of those Salvos too. Per-unit. I'm still partially 'on' for these guys. Can't wait to see the whole book.

Audustum wrote:

Mr. Funktastic wrote:

superninja_834 wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Do you really think they are going to give bikes, which already cost almost 90 points per model, a weapon that does 1d3+3 damage? That would make bikes incredibly OP. I will await that with baited breath, thinking I can field all bike lists with Melta missiles.

the very opposite I am afraid. Salvo only got one shot, lost its rerolling wounds, not OP at all, more like UP. Bike used to be a perfect all arounder, anti-infan/anti-vehicle/self operating(reroll as standard). In the next codex it is more like a 2+/2+ flying thunderwolf cavalry who traded in his hammer for a one shot melta and d2 lance.

The comparison to TWC is awfully reductive. Bikes move 4" faster, have fly, have 2 extra attacks base, hit on 2+, an extra toughtness and wound, and have native ob sec. Also in comparing the d3+3 damage melta missile vs the current melta missile, the d3+3 damage one actually maths out better in most circumstances and they pull relatively even vs T8, even without the rerolling wounds vs vehicles, and they're straight up better vs Monsters. That consistent damage goes a loooong way. If anything it sounds like they made out at least slightly better than they are currently if they are indeed getting a 5th wound, d3+3 damage melta missiles, and consistent damage on their lances.

If they're magna imeprator they can re-roll one of those Salvos too. Per-unit. I'm still partially 'on' for these guys. Can't wait to see the whole book.

Maybe a use case for MSU bikers. But, iunno, they just too many points to be a shooting squad. They need to ANNIHILATE a target at 90 points a model, and they have worse shooting then eradicators.

stratigo wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Mr. Funktastic wrote:

superninja_834 wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Do you really think they are going to give bikes, which already cost almost 90 points per model, a weapon that does 1d3+3 damage? That would make bikes incredibly OP. I will await that with baited breath, thinking I can field all bike lists with Melta missiles.

the very opposite I am afraid. Salvo only got one shot, lost its rerolling wounds, not OP at all, more like UP. Bike used to be a perfect all arounder, anti-infan/anti-vehicle/self operating(reroll as standard). In the next codex it is more like a 2+/2+ flying thunderwolf cavalry who traded in his hammer for a one shot melta and d2 lance.

The comparison to TWC is awfully reductive. Bikes move 4" faster, have fly, have 2 extra attacks base, hit on 2+, an extra toughtness and wound, and have native ob sec. Also in comparing the d3+3 damage melta missile vs the current melta missile, the d3+3 damage one actually maths out better in most circumstances and they pull relatively even vs T8, even without the rerolling wounds vs vehicles, and they're straight up better vs Monsters. That consistent damage goes a loooong way. If anything it sounds like they made out at least slightly better than they are currently if they are indeed getting a 5th wound, d3+3 damage melta missiles, and consistent damage on their lances.

If they're magna imeprator they can re-roll one of those Salvos too. Per-unit. I'm still partially 'on' for these guys. Can't wait to see the whole book.

Maybe a use case for MSU bikers. But, iunno, they just too many points to be a shooting squad. They need to ANNIHILATE a target at 90 points a model, and they have worse shooting then eradicators.

I like them for being generalists who don't really need strat support. They can punch, they can shoot, they can do both at once. If they lose Stooping Dive and/or ObSec then there's a problem though.

stratigo wrote:

Maybe a use case for MSU bikers. But, iunno, they just too many points to be a shooting squad. They need to ANNIHILATE a target at 90 points a model, and they have worse shooting then eradicators.

They don't need to be as good at anti tank as Eradicators when they have everything else going for them that I listed, including actually having respectable melee which Eradicators lack. If they get tagged they're done for, as opposed to bikes who actually want to be charging in melee for the most part. Gotta take the whole package into account, context matters.

Audustum wrote:

I like them for being generalists who don't really need strat support. They can punch, they can shoot, they can do both at once. If they lose Stooping Dive and/or ObSec then there's a problem though.

I don't think losing Stooping Dive would be a dealbreaker for them, it was always a really expensive and situational strat. I can only recall using it once, ever.

Mr. Funktastic wrote:

stratigo wrote:

Maybe a use case for MSU bikers. But, iunno, they just too many points to be a shooting squad. They need to ANNIHILATE a target at 90 points a model, and they have worse shooting then eradicators.

They don't need to be as good at anti tank as Eradicators when they have everything else going for them that I listed, including actually having respectable melee which Eradicators lack. If they get tagged they're done for, as opposed to bikes who actually want to be charging in melee for the most part. Gotta take the whole package into account, context matters.

Audustum wrote:

I like them for being generalists who don't really need strat support. They can punch, they can shoot, they can do both at once. If they lose Stooping Dive and/or ObSec then there's a problem though.

I don't think losing Stooping Dive would be a dealbreaker for them, it was always a really expensive and situational strat. I can only recall using it once, ever.

I don't think MSU bikes DO do well in combat, but I might be wrong. I think they'd be too easily out traded by dedicated melee units

stratigo wrote:

I don't think MSU bikes DO do well in combat, but I might be wrong. I think they'd be too easily out traded by dedicated melee units

4 attacks each hitting on 2+ S6 (maybe S7 now?) AP-3 2 damage with a wound bonus when they charge. It's certainly not bad and they probably don't want to be the ones to get charged either way, but they probably want to bully troops or units that don't fight well off of objectives. Either way we're still missing plenty of rules we don't know about that could put them over the edge and how they'll interact with each other to say for certain.

stratigo wrote:

Mr. Funktastic wrote:

stratigo wrote:

Maybe a use case for MSU bikers. But, iunno, they just too many points to be a shooting squad. They need to ANNIHILATE a target at 90 points a model, and they have worse shooting then eradicators.

They don't need to be as good at anti tank as Eradicators when they have everything else going for them that I listed, including actually having respectable melee which Eradicators lack. If they get tagged they're done for, as opposed to bikes who actually want to be charging in melee for the most part. Gotta take the whole package into account, context matters.

Audustum wrote:

I like them for being generalists who don't really need strat support. They can punch, they can shoot, they can do both at once. If they lose Stooping Dive and/or ObSec then there's a problem though.

I don't think losing Stooping Dive would be a dealbreaker for them, it was always a really expensive and situational strat. I can only recall using it once, ever.

I don't think MSU bikes DO do well in combat, but I might be wrong. I think they'd be too easily out traded by dedicated melee units

then question become, how to deal with sm dreadnought list. 2 bikes are basically more expensive than a contemptor.

Potential answers would have:
1. Ares
2. Caladius 2-3
3. Alot, alot of meta spear foot guard

This was what happened the last time I played with sm, 3 contemptor + guiliman + deredo + honour guard + alot of plasma shoota.

Luckily I was on ultramarine side, playing 2 vs 2 in 4000pts.

Mr. Funktastic wrote:

stratigo wrote:

I don't think MSU bikes DO do well in combat, but I might be wrong. I think they'd be too easily out traded by dedicated melee units

4 attacks each hitting on 2+ S6 (maybe S7 now?) AP-3 2 damage with a wound bonus when they charge. It's certainly not bad and they probably don't want to be the ones to get charged either way, but they probably want to bully troops or units that don't fight well off of objectives. Either way we're still missing plenty of rules we don't know about that could put them over the edge and how they'll interact with each other to say for certain.

From experience, even with re-roll wounds, I generally didn't want to hit Terminators, even Custodes Terminators, due to Transhuman. It was effectively a tarpit that would smack me harder than I smacked it. I don't think that calculus changes. The Jetbikes primarily want to hit stuff that, at worst, can fight O.K. but isn't super durable itself. Charging Incubi, if in range of a leadership debuff, could still be dicey, but slamming into them regular? Sure! Cronos? Go blow them up! GK Interceptors? Yeah!

Dreadknights? Ehhhh, soften it up with Salvo first.


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superninja_834 wrote:

stratigo wrote:

Mr. Funktastic wrote:

stratigo wrote:

Maybe a use case for MSU bikers. But, iunno, they just too many points to be a shooting squad. They need to ANNIHILATE a target at 90 points a model, and they have worse shooting then eradicators.

They don't need to be as good at anti tank as Eradicators when they have everything else going for them that I listed, including actually having respectable melee which Eradicators lack. If they get tagged they're done for, as opposed to bikes who actually want to be charging in melee for the most part. Gotta take the whole package into account, context matters.

Audustum wrote:

I like them for being generalists who don't really need strat support. They can punch, they can shoot, they can do both at once. If they lose Stooping Dive and/or ObSec then there's a problem though.

I don't think losing Stooping Dive would be a dealbreaker for them, it was always a really expensive and situational strat. I can only recall using it once, ever.

I don't think MSU bikes DO do well in combat, but I might be wrong. I think they'd be too easily out traded by dedicated melee units

then question become, how to deal with sm dreadnought list. 2 bikes are basically more expensive than a contemptor.

Potential answers would have:
1. Ares
2. Caladius 2-3
3. Alot, alot of meta spear foot guard

This was what happened the last time I played with sm, 3 contemptor + guiliman + deredo + honour guard + alot of plasma shoota.

Luckily I was on ultramarine side, playing 2 vs 2 in 4000pts.

Trying to make a TAC list that also accounts for dreadnoughts, I'm thinking it's more about weathering the fire than disabling it. None of our stuff really hits hard enough except Achillus and (melee) Telemon dreads to rip them apart, but Storm Shield Guardians can probably hang on long enough to just outscore that kind of castle.

So its looking like for the 6 Ka'tah's we have:

1 Mobility based
2 Offensive shooting
3 Offensive melee
4 Defensive
5 Action based
6 ???

I havent seen a comprehensive list yet (and there could currently not be one).


Shield guard and Spear guard will likely be the same points now 40-45pts. With swords having +1sv and pistol vs the spears higher strength and longer range shooting. Very balanced against each other now and spears might see play again.

I see Guardians staying the same cost, shields going up by 5ppm.

I see bikes going UP in cost, by 5-10ppm.

I see terminators going up. Maybe 5-10.

Everyone thinks we are getting all this cool stuff, an extra wound, keeping our 4++ and just walking away without giving anything in return? I mean, maybe, but I doubt it. Custodes are not seeing many costs go down I think.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I see Guardians staying the same cost, shields going up by 5ppm.

I see bikes going UP in cost, by 5-10ppm.

I see terminators going up. Maybe 5-10.

Everyone thinks we are getting all this cool stuff, an extra wound, keeping our 4++ and just walking away without giving anything in return? I mean, maybe, but I doubt it. Custodes are not seeing many costs go down I think.

We already have the 4++ so yes, I don't expect that to cost anything. Shields too. Only Bikes are getting the extra wound so there may be a slight revision there. Flat 2 damage probably won't amount to much in points differential because I don't think it amounted to much when the same thing happened to GK.

Now we know that the Champion is 110 pts...

Does that seem awefully expensive to anyone else?
I just dont see why he (currently) needs to be more expensive than a shield captain.
He just.. offers nothing, beside character chopping, that I'd be looking for in Custodes RN.
The vehicle/Monsterkiller profile is weak and horde clearing hardly is a job for a single HQ model. The fights first is bad and does almost nothing...
Why again should I give up RR1s for a bit more melee power with 0 ranged and delivery problems that is even more expensive?

Seems pretty reasonable for a super killy beat stick who is also really survivable and likely has some rules we haven't seen as yet.

330 points for three units that can barely do the job better than a like (points) number of Terminators, I don't see the value. I'd rather take Terminators that have at least some function other than get close, hit characters. Terminators can hold objectives, shoot really well, shut down shooting/charges, have really great strategem support.

This is a square peg for a game where we already have 6 square pegs, but we need round ones. It's literally pointless.

Geez why are you guys so negative about this? 110p seems fine for all the stuff he does. He's quite killy and also has good survivability in melee.

AND we still haven't seen how he can potentially benefit from the remaining Katas, Shield Host rules and relics/warlord traits.

Once we've seen all this stuff you might have a reason to moan about the cost.

blade champ is a bit high at 110 if he only has a 3+ sv.

He is really killy however, and if you can give him a 3++ with a relic he's very durable. Also do remember he can get potentially insane with buffs. If he gets +1 attack from banner, +1 attack from Ka'Tah, and any other offensive buff from a WL trait he will be able to basically wipe out an entire unit of necron warriors by himself.

He definately didnt need to be more expensive than a shield captain (since he has no auras), which means we should expect our shield captains to go up in points as well.

While this is disapointing, it means they should also be gaining better profiles and we should expect +1 W and A for all our characters.

110 points seems pretty fair. T5, 1+ in melee, to-hit transhuman in melee, etc means that he'll mulch most dedicated melee units up close. He's pretty cleanly more dangerous than a similar marine character of the same cost.

Um, no. Look up Dark Angel DW knights. 47ppm. Or Bladeguard 35ppm. They can hit just as hard or harder depending on their tactics, phase, and chapter rules, not even counting strats.

This is a single unit character for 110 points, that has zero shooting, and does exceptionally good melee, but is slow as crap, and can be seen coming a mile away.

I think his best use would be a quick FGLTC bomb of two or three, but that's a lot of CP to waste on scaring the opponent's backfield.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Um, no. Look up Dark Angel DW knights. 47ppm. Or Bladeguard 35ppm. They can hit just as hard or harder depending on their tactics, phase, and chapter rules, not even counting strats.

This is a single unit character for 110 points, that has zero shooting, and does exceptionally good melee, but is slow as crap, and can be seen coming a mile away.

I think his best use would be a quick FGLTC bomb of two or three, but that's a lot of CP to waste on scaring the opponent's backfield.

Whats your point? DW knights also have zero shooting, are slow as feth and can be seen coming from a mile away. We don't even know yet if the Blade Champion will hit as hard or harder in melee as the point equivalent number of DW knights, because that depends on the remaining shield hosts, katas and relics/warlord traits. What if there's a relic vault blade that completely pushes the blade champion over the edge, because it has amazing stats? What if there's an amazing walord trait/captain commander combination that gives him a "enemy fights last" ability?

All this moaning about points cost and units being unplayable garbage is pointless unless we see the whole codex.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Um, no. Look up Dark Angel DW knights. 47ppm. Or Bladeguard 35ppm. They can hit just as hard or harder depending on their tactics, phase, and chapter rules, not even counting strats.

This is a single unit character for 110 points, that has zero shooting, and does exceptionally good melee, but is slow as crap, and can be seen coming a mile away.

I think his best use would be a quick FGLTC bomb of two or three, but that's a lot of CP to waste on scaring the opponent's backfield.

This ignores half his strengths though. He's a character with character targeting and a 6" heroic. He makes combat decisions very complicated for the opponent and he can't be dealt with in shooting. Trying to use him as a bomb unit seems pretty silly but if it still makes sense to march dreads and shields up the board he doesn't look terrible there.

Fezzik, theres basically noone who can dish out the amount of attacks the blade champ can.

I already pointed out he can one shot a 20 man warrior blob. Who else can do that?

6 base attacks, +1 for banner, +1 for Ka'tah=8
Doubled for hurricanas to 16.
Peerless warrior WL trait for new swings on a 6+
All seeing annihilator for exploding 6's.

On average he gets 3 6's which counter his 1's and give him 3 more attacks for 19 hits.
He then gets 14 wounds, and assuming Dread host gets +1 AP is killing 12-13 warriors by himself.

As long as you shot some dead before he goes in the unit is gone. And if 1 or 2 live they fail morale.

So basically he's up there with the likes of Mortarion and the succubus for killiness without using any strats.

Heres the kicker, you can take 3 of em, and they are far more durable than the succubus, and far cheaper than mortarion.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Fezzik, theres basically noone who can dish out the amount of attacks the blade champ can.

I already pointed out he can one shot a 20 man warrior blob. Who else can do that?

6 base attacks, +1 for banner, +1 for Ka'tah=8
Doubled for hurricanas to 16.
Peerless warrior WL trait for new swings on a 6+
All seeing annihilator for exploding 6's.

On average he gets 3 6's which counter his 1's and give him 3 more attacks for 19 hits.
He then gets 14 wounds, and assuming Dread host gets +1 AP is killing 12-13 warriors by himself.

As long as you shot some dead before he goes in the unit is gone. And if 1 or 2 live they fail morale.

So basically he's up there with the likes of Mortarion and the succubus for killiness without using any strats.

Heres the kicker, you can take 3 of em, and they are far more durable than the succubus, and far cheaper than mortarion.

This might be a dumb question, but I've been wondering this with another interaction before: doesn't the doubling of his attacks due to the hurricanis profile happen before he gets the extra attack from banner or Kata?

Tiberias wrote:


This might be a dumb question, but I've been wondering this with another interaction before: doesn't the doubling of his attacks due to the hurricanis profile happen before he gets the extra attack from banner or Kata?

If you actually doubled attacks yes, but what actually happens is that you add 2 to the number of attacks and then each attack makes two hit rolls.

novembermike wrote:

Tiberias wrote:


This might be a dumb question, but I've been wondering this with another interaction before: doesn't the doubling of his attacks due to the hurricanis profile happen before he gets the extra attack from banner or Kata?

If you actually doubled attacks yes, but what actually happens is that you add 2 to the number of attacks and then each attack makes two hit rolls.

Oh that's right! The wording doesn't actually say the attacks get doubled...I remembered that incorrectly.
Thanks for clearing that one up.

So if I am not allowed to "moan" about my feelings regarding this new release, does that work both ways? Can we stop fellating the rules team for the leaks we've been given? I mean, this is hardly on par with the levels of cheese 9th has been doling out to almost every other faction in the game.

Tiberias wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Um, no. Look up Dark Angel DW knights. 47ppm. Or Bladeguard 35ppm. They can hit just as hard or harder depending on their tactics, phase, and chapter rules, not even counting strats.

This is a single unit character for 110 points, that has zero shooting, and does exceptionally good melee, but is slow as crap, and can be seen coming a mile away.

I think his best use would be a quick FGLTC bomb of two or three, but that's a lot of CP to waste on scaring the opponent's backfield.

Whats your point? DW knights also have zero shooting, are slow as feth and can be seen coming from a mile away. We don't even know yet if the Blade Champion will hit as hard or harder in melee as the point equivalent number of DW knights, because that depends on the remaining shield hosts, katas and relics/warlord traits. What if there's a relic vault blade that completely pushes the blade champion over the edge, because it has amazing stats? What if there's an amazing walord trait/captain commander combination that gives him a "enemy fights last" ability?

All this moaning about points cost and units being unplayable garbage is pointless unless we see the whole codex.

Completely agree with this. It's more fair to compare a character to another character (such as the Emperor's Champion) than to an entirely different unit with multiple models anyway. It's foolish right now to proclaim the sky is falling on a particular unit or even Custodes as a whole when we only have bits and pieces and rumors to work with and we don't even have anything close to resembling a complete picture on what the codex is offering. I know complaining about GW is always in vogue but there's really no point in the constant pessimism right now when we're still lacking so much context. Plus, do we REALLY want to be as busted as some of the S tier factions out there? As an Ad Mech player, it's not fun being the (former) boogeyman, you don't want that kind of heat where people are constantly calling for your army to get nerfed into the ground, warranted or not. Honestly if we're firmly an A tier faction after all of this, I'll be more than happy.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So if I am not allowed to "moan" about my feelings regarding this new release, does that work both ways? Can we stop fellating the rules team for the leaks we've been given? I mean, this is hardly on par with the levels of cheese 9th has been doling out to almost every other faction in the game.

Oh my god dude, I am so sick of this! I really tried to engage you in a positive way and tell you to cheer up about the codex and things like bikes, which I assume are one of your favourite units. But you insist seeing everything in the most negative way possible, it's exhausting.

Also what is this babble about fellating the rules team? Nobody ever said every new rule so far is gold spanking amazing, just to freaking wait until we have the bigger picture. Again you stuff like our rules are "not on paar with the levels of cheese in 9th". Leaving aside the fact, that being OP like dark eldar and admech is not good for the game...you can't know if our codex doesn't have the same level of cheese. You haven't seen all of it.

It potentially takes one good rule/stratagem/relic to make a unit viable. Is everybody suddenly forgetting Venatari?! Before the psychic awakening books nobody played them. Then we got the superior firing patterns stratagem and suddenly they were a staple in quite a lot of lists.
So now you're telling me bikes are dead and the rules stink when you haven't even seen the whole codex? This is ridiculous.

Seriously, get your head out of your ass and stop only thinking in black or white.

My initial intention to leak part of the revised codex is to bring the discussion here to a reasonable level. People were talking about losing 4++, keeping 3++ shield and all kinds of crazy idea.TBH, new codex is far from optimistic....For the champion, I am argree with Fezzik. Foot champion is useless. From 7E, being a successful champion-like character has to have:
1. mobility: M>8 / fly / DS / charge after advance
2. many attacks and rerolls
3. good weapons: like master crafted hammer
4. moderate defense, 4++ is must
5. relatively cheap

so champion could not fly, has not DS built in, can not charge after advance, ON-FOOT

many attacks in 511 and barely any reroll(unless anti character route)

good weapons? kinda of...

defense is ok

cheap? not at all, a relic axe termi captain will serve any purpose except cleaning hordes better in 110+pts.

personal speaking champion is not completely useless, just too expensive. If in 85 or 95 pts, ill very happy to send him in with the first strike group(with termis?) and scramble backfield objectives with its 6' pile in and consolidate. but 110? nah.

superninja_834 wrote:
My initial intention to leak part of the revised codex is to bring the discussion here to a reasonable level. People were talking about losing 4++, keeping 3++ shield and all kinds of crazy idea.TBH, new codex is far from optimistic....For the champion, I am argree with Fezzik. Foot champion is useless. From 7E, being a successful champion-like character has to have:
1. mobility: M>8 / fly / DS / charge after advance
2. many attacks and rerolls
3. good weapons: like master crafted hammer
4. moderate defense, 4++ is must
5. relatively cheap

so champion could not fly, has not DS built in, can not charge after advance, ON-FOOT

many attacks in 511 and barely any reroll(unless anti character route)

good weapons? kinda of...

defense is ok

cheap? not at all, a relic axe termi captain will serve any purpose except cleaning hordes better in 110+pts.

personal speaking champion is not completely useless, just too expensive. If in 85 or 95 pts, ill very happy to send him in with the first strike group(with termis?) and scramble backfield objectives with its 6' pile in and consolidate. but 110? nah.

Just to be clear you are saying that you have seen the all the rules from the final version of the 9th ed custodes codex? And you know for a fact that Custodes are going to loose the army wide 4++?

Blade champ is appropriate at 110 from what i can tell. Mobility is his only issue, as he will win against any non-monstrous character 1v1 and will even beat down many monsters. His ability to only be hit on a 4+ is actually quite strong, and if you can give him 3++ with the eagles eye there wont be many things that can kill him in one turn.

If you give him ArcaneGeneticAlchemy he ignores 92% of all attacks in the game (asuming eagles eye).

110 pts seems pretty reasonable when that's around the same price as a normal Shield Captain. Plus we don't know if there are any relics/WLTs/strat combinations that take him over the top yet.

All in all, time will tell. I'd rather keep an open mind and wait until I see all the rules and how they'll interact with each other before making my own judgment calls on any part of our codex, premature doom and glooming doesn't serve any purpose. At the end of the day what really matters is real game experience and playing and testing all the new stuff, theorycrafting only goes so far and it's flawed theorycrafting when it's based on knee jerk reactions made from only part of the bigger picture.

A miss on anything but a 4 is not that great when you factor in auto-hitting and targeted attacks. It can't avoid smite, flamers, or for a better example, lets do this unit, what most have agreed is likely an HQ, against another 110 point HQ unit. A GK Captain with Vortex of doom is 110 points. And it's got a master crafted storm bolter and Nemesis Warding Stave. It's hitting on 2s both up close and at range, which the Champion doesn't get. It's got 6W and T4. It's a 2+ save with a 4++. 5 attacks with a S7 weapon with AP3 and 2 damage. It re-rolls 1s. It can cast 1 spell and deny 1 spell.

Which of these is more likely to earn points back?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
A miss on anything but a 4 is not that great when you factor in auto-hitting and targeted attacks. It can't avoid smite, flamers, or for a better example, lets do this unit, what most have agreed is likely an HQ, against another 110 point HQ unit. A GK Captain with Vortex of doom is 110 points. And it's got a master crafted storm bolter and Nemesis Warding Stave. It's hitting on 2s both up close and at range, which the Champion doesn't get. It's got 6W and T4. It's a 2+ save with a 4++. 5 attacks with a S7 weapon with AP3 and 2 damage. It re-rolls 1s. It can cast 1 spell and deny 1 spell.

Which of these is more likely to earn points back?

This is kind of a silly comparison. The GK Captain is much, much worse in melee. He has a lot of other bonuses and it's a solid character but all of the melee pros you point to are just flat out worse. Hell, you even have the warding stave at AP-3 when it's AP-1 right? I don't play GK so I could be wrong on that but I really don't remember the nemesis warding staves being AP-3.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
A miss on anything but a 4 is not that great when you factor in auto-hitting and targeted attacks. It can't avoid smite, flamers, or for a better example, lets do this unit, what most have agreed is likely an HQ, against another 110 point HQ unit. A GK Captain with Vortex of doom is 110 points. And it's got a master crafted storm bolter and Nemesis Warding Stave. It's hitting on 2s both up close and at range, which the Champion doesn't get. It's got 6W and T4. It's a 2+ save with a 4++. 5 attacks with a S7 weapon with AP3 and 2 damage. It re-rolls 1s. It can cast 1 spell and deny 1 spell.

Which of these is more likely to earn points back?

I mean, the Blade Champion also hits on 2's. He's a 4++ also. He gets +1 armor in melee so he's a 2+ or 1+ there. Flamers shouldn't be hitting CHARACTER keyword unless it's near the end or you're getting wrecked anyway (in which case, well, you're getting wrecked away). Champion is probably also 6W, 5W minimum. Should be 5A or 6A too. Champ has 3 attack modes which are equal or situational better to our GK.

I mean, seems pretty equal. GK gets some psychic toys. Blade Champ is better at fighting other characters or clearing a horde unit. Champion almost certainly wins a straight up duel.

Yeah, they're about equivalent and they cost the same. Not seeing the issue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

novembermike wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
A miss on anything but a 4 is not that great when you factor in auto-hitting and targeted attacks. It can't avoid smite, flamers, or for a better example, lets do this unit, what most have agreed is likely an HQ, against another 110 point HQ unit. A GK Captain with Vortex of doom is 110 points. And it's got a master crafted storm bolter and Nemesis Warding Stave. It's hitting on 2s both up close and at range, which the Champion doesn't get. It's got 6W and T4. It's a 2+ save with a 4++. 5 attacks with a S7 weapon with AP3 and 2 damage. It re-rolls 1s. It can cast 1 spell and deny 1 spell.

Which of these is more likely to earn points back?

This is kind of a silly comparison. The GK Captain is much, much worse in melee. He has a lot of other bonuses and it's a solid character but all of the melee pros you point to are just flat out worse. Hell, you even have the warding stave at AP-3 when it's AP-1 right? I don't play GK so I could be wrong on that but I really don't remember the nemesis warding staves being AP-3.

I believe you're right that it's AP-1.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 nordsturmking wrote:

superninja_834 wrote:
My initial intention to leak part of the revised codex is to bring the discussion here to a reasonable level. People were talking about losing 4++, keeping 3++ shield and all kinds of crazy idea.TBH, new codex is far from optimistic....For the champion, I am argree with Fezzik. Foot champion is useless. From 7E, being a successful champion-like character has to have:
1. mobility: M>8 / fly / DS / charge after advance
2. many attacks and rerolls
3. good weapons: like master crafted hammer
4. moderate defense, 4++ is must
5. relatively cheap

so champion could not fly, has not DS built in, can not charge after advance, ON-FOOT

many attacks in 511 and barely any reroll(unless anti character route)

good weapons? kinda of...

defense is ok

cheap? not at all, a relic axe termi captain will serve any purpose except cleaning hordes better in 110+pts.

personal speaking champion is not completely useless, just too expensive. If in 85 or 95 pts, ill very happy to send him in with the first strike group(with termis?) and scramble backfield objectives with its 6' pile in and consolidate. but 110? nah.

Just to be clear you are saying that you have seen the all the rules from the final version of the 9th ed custodes codex? And you know for a fact that Custodes are going to loose the army wide 4++?

He previously said armywide 4++ is still there.

novembermike wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
A miss on anything but a 4 is not that great when you factor in auto-hitting and targeted attacks. It can't avoid smite, flamers, or for a better example, lets do this unit, what most have agreed is likely an HQ, against another 110 point HQ unit. A GK Captain with Vortex of doom is 110 points. And it's got a master crafted storm bolter and Nemesis Warding Stave. It's hitting on 2s both up close and at range, which the Champion doesn't get. It's got 6W and T4. It's a 2+ save with a 4++. 5 attacks with a S7 weapon with AP3 and 2 damage. It re-rolls 1s. It can cast 1 spell and deny 1 spell.

Which of these is more likely to earn points back?

This is kind of a silly comparison. The GK Captain is much, much worse in melee. He has a lot of other bonuses and it's a solid character but all of the melee pros you point to are just flat out worse. Hell, you even have the warding stave at AP-3 when it's AP-1 right? I don't play GK so I could be wrong on that but I really don't remember the nemesis warding staves being AP-3.

Apologies, I mixed up S+3, and thought it was in the AP block. You are correct. S7 attacks, AP1, D2. I mean the Spear is S6 AP2 D2. But I thought S over AP would be more even.

In any event, I am trying to point out the pointlessness of this character's existence. It solves zero of our problems, and has no real advantage over any of our frankly BETTER, HQ options. As someone else said, a Terminator SC with an axe and the Eagle eye is better in almost every way.

Whether he solves our problems is a completely different question than whether he's good for the points. I'd really need to look into how we'll be constructing armies to know what role he plays, it's entirely possible he just ends up being worse than the sister of silence character or something. He's still solid for the points though and does a job of being a beatstick character with some tricks.

If I am being kind, he might act as a seriously dangerous D. Carnifex; unassuming single character, but he can get ugly very fast.

But my question is again, at the cost, and position, I don't see it being of much value. SCs in TErminator plate with axes do it better, and ar about the same cost. The grenade launcher is just too good, as is slayer of tyrants, and free FGLTC.

I need to see how the points shake out. If this is what they are calling 110 points I'm scared to think what Trajann might end up costing.

I would like him a LOT more in the Heavy slot or Elite.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
If I am being kind, he might act as a seriously dangerous D. Carnifex; unassuming single character, but he can get ugly very fast.

But my question is again, at the cost, and position, I don't see it being of much value. SCs in TErminator plate with axes do it better, and ar about the same cost. The grenade launcher is just too good, as is slayer of tyrants, and free FGLTC.

I need to see how the points shake out. If this is what they are calling 110 points I'm scared to think what Trajann might end up costing.

I would like him a LOT more in the Heavy slot or Elite.

Dude, you literally don't even know his statline, not to mention all the abilities, relics, wlts, etc. What are you even talking about?

I would have preferred our new killy HQ be the same price as a Shield Captain but I'm still interested in trying him out.

Have they announced when he'll be sold separately?

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Fezzik, theres basically noone who can dish out the amount of attacks the blade champ can.

I already pointed out he can one shot a 20 man warrior blob. Who else can do that?

6 base attacks, +1 for banner, +1 for Ka'tah=8
Doubled for hurricanas to 16.
Peerless warrior WL trait for new swings on a 6+
All seeing annihilator for exploding 6's.

On average he gets 3 6's which counter his 1's and give him 3 more attacks for 19 hits.
He then gets 14 wounds, and assuming Dread host gets +1 AP is killing 12-13 warriors by himself.

As long as you shot some dead before he goes in the unit is gone. And if 1 or 2 live they fail morale.

So basically he's up there with the likes of Mortarion and the succubus for killiness without using any strats.

Heres the kicker, you can take 3 of em, and they are far more durable than the succubus, and far cheaper than mortarion.

You don't really need to kill a lot of necron warriors XD.

Also I would ne count on him v a succubus


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
I would have preferred our new killy HQ be the same price as a Shield Captain but I'm still interested in trying him out.

Have they announced when he'll be sold separately?

Half a year to a year

with 3d printing and hand craft skills, one can kitbash a better champion. Head from termi or venatari, torso of food guard, leg from bikers or venatari, a simple blade, a cloak from termi or veteran.

novembermike wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
If I am being kind, he might act as a seriously dangerous D. Carnifex; unassuming single character, but he can get ugly very fast.

But my question is again, at the cost, and position, I don't see it being of much value. SCs in TErminator plate with axes do it better, and ar about the same cost. The grenade launcher is just too good, as is slayer of tyrants, and free FGLTC.

I need to see how the points shake out. If this is what they are calling 110 points I'm scared to think what Trajann might end up costing.

I would like him a LOT more in the Heavy slot or Elite.

Dude, you literally don't even know his statline, not to mention all the abilities, relics, wlts, etc. What are you even talking about?

Dude, calm down. No need to get this internet tough over an argument. I don't see you calling out people who are saying this guy is amazing, not knowing the codex. But I call it garbage, and I'm the wrong one.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

novembermike wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
If I am being kind, he might act as a seriously dangerous D. Carnifex; unassuming single character, but he can get ugly very fast.

But my question is again, at the cost, and position, I don't see it being of much value. SCs in TErminator plate with axes do it better, and ar about the same cost. The grenade launcher is just too good, as is slayer of tyrants, and free FGLTC.

I need to see how the points shake out. If this is what they are calling 110 points I'm scared to think what Trajann might end up costing.

I would like him a LOT more in the Heavy slot or Elite.

Dude, you literally don't even know his statline, not to mention all the abilities, relics, wlts, etc. What are you even talking about?

Dude, calm down. No need to get this internet tough over an argument. I don't see you calling out people who are saying this guy is amazing, not knowing the codex. But I call it garbage, and I'm the wrong one.

Oh no, you didn't just say that. How intellectually dishonest can someone be in a conversation? It's mind boggling.

Nobody said the blade champion is the best thing ever and will blow every other character we have out of the water because of how awesome he is, while simultaneously fellating the rules team as you call its because GW can do no wrong.
All people said was that they either are waiting for the bigger picture or that they are cautiously optimistic until they see everything.

You are the only one who talks in extremes here and it's almost always in extreme negatives:

"we won't even get a codex, because why should GW bother with Custodes?"
"bikes will be crap and the rules won't be as broken as admech"

And when people get annoyed because you keep talking out of your ass even though many of them tired to cheer you up about the new codex release you come at them with intellectually dishonest arguments. Get a grip man.

And the worst part is that if the codex really turns out to be gak, there's a decent chance you'll get back here and say I told you so, because you completely missed the point.

In all honesty I probably don't use the blade champion. It's going to be competing with Trajann, the various shield captains and the sisters character which all seem pretty good. That said, it still looks like a perfectly reasonable character and depending on warlord traits, relics, full stats, etc I still might end up playing it.

There's a principle that you don't need to have a fully formed opinion on something until you actually need to make a decision. I don't have to make any decisions here so I have declined having a strong opinion and I'm mostly talking in generalities. I'm certainly not saying that this guy is amazing, just that I haven't seen anything that looks bad.

Updates from Shadow Throne:
https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/rdd1bn/shadowthrone_custodes_rules_leak/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

Text version:
Blade Champion

3+ Save [my disappointment is immense]

Friendly units get +1 to thier charge if he is all ready in that combat

Allarus Terminator Captain has 8 Wounds and is PL 7.

Prosecutors are PL 3

Vigilators are PL 4

Witchswekers do indeed have a Scout move and are movement 7.

All Sisters of Silence have the <Core> keyword

Vexilla in Allarus Terminator armor has 7 wounds and is PL 6.

The three banner types are:

A. Provides light cover to all units within 6"

B. Provides all units/models within 6" an additional attack

C. Provides heavy cover to all units within 6"

Allarus Terminators are 3PL each. The unit size is now 1-6.

Axe: +3STR AP-2 D2

Spear: +2STR AP-3 D2

Sword: +1STR AP-3 D2

Grenade Launcher is: 18" STR5 AP-3 D1 Assault d3

Allarus Terminators can pile into the nearest enemy character even if that character isn't the closest model but must end within engagement range of any unit they where previously in combat with.

So, PL3 is roughly 60 points. So, again roughly, an Allarus Terminator is now 60 points with the axe being an upgrade over the spear. And they come in squads of 1-6 now. Neat.

"EDIT: Sorry for the rushed write up yall. Im asking my wife to send me photos of the box from the house. I'm at work, so there will be some lag. I'll try to update this post as often as I can with any relevant information."

Allarus are T5 4W 4A 2+/4++

Rivener wrote:
Updates from Shadow Throne:
https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/rdd1bn/shadowthrone_custodes_rules_leak/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

Text version:
Blade Champion

3+ Save [my disappointment is immense]

Friendly units get +1 to thier charge if he is all ready in that combat

Allarus Terminator Captain has 8 Wounds and is PL 7.

Prosecutors are PL 3

Vigilators are PL 4

Witchswekers do indeed have a Scout move and are movement 7.

All Sisters of Silence have the <Core> keyword

Vexilla in Allarus Terminator armor has 7 wounds and is PL 6.

The three banner types are:

A. Provides light cover to all units within 6"

B. Provides all units/models within 6" an additional attack

C. Provides heavy cover to all units within 6"

Allarus Terminators are 3PL each. The unit size is now 1-6.

Axe: +3STR AP-2 D2

Spear: +2STR AP-3 D2

Sword: +1STR AP-3 D2

Grenade Launcher is: 18" STR5 AP-3 D1 Assault d3

Allarus Terminators can pile into the nearest enemy character even if that character isn't the closest model but must end within engagement range of any unit they where previously in combat with.

So, PL3 is roughly 60 points. So, again roughly, an Allarus Terminator is now 60 points with the axe being an upgrade over the spear. And they come in squads of 1-6 now. Neat.

"EDIT: Sorry for the rushed write up yall. Im asking my wife to send me photos of the box from the house. I'm at work, so there will be some lag. I'll try to update this post as often as I can with any relevant information."

Allarus are T5 4W 4A 2+/4++

Quick correction: He already clarified that 'heavy cover' on the banner should be 'dense cover'.

making the defensor give light and heavy cover would be pretty nice and reasonable.

On to my actual thoughts:

Are resident leaker is right. Just more confirmation on that.

Without good stratagem support, I'm skeptical of Terminators being great units. Assuming storm shields remain the same, a big blob of Guardians seems great. Dreads + Jetbikes are the better mobile hammer units.

I just hate that we haven't seen a single leak and thought "wow that's gonna be really good." Everything seems overly complicated and/or situational. Can anyone tell me something about these leaks that's going to put us anywhere near the level of Dark Eldar, Orks, etc?

 Toofast wrote:
I just hate that we haven't seen a single leak and thought "wow that's gonna be really good." Everything seems overly complicated and/or situational. Can anyone tell me something about these leaks that's going to put us anywhere near the level of Dark Eldar, Orks, etc?

We're already an A tier faction. Even a small buff can throw us into S. And there are some boosts here. That said, we're still waiting on quite a bit. WT's, Relics, Stratagems, the vast majority of our potential power sources are still unknown.

 Toofast wrote:
I just hate that we haven't seen a single leak and thought "wow that's gonna be really good." Everything seems overly complicated and/or situational. Can anyone tell me something about these leaks that's going to put us anywhere near the level of Dark Eldar, Orks, etc?

We'll need to see all the rules come together but things like the shield host traits and ka'tah are a straight buff. We'll probably lose some things we have now but things like Sagittarum are basically going to be the same as they are now but they'll have a 4+++ vs mortals and a free re-roll each turn. Custodes are already good so these sorts of buffs are very promising.

 Toofast wrote:
I just hate that we haven't seen a single leak and thought "wow that's gonna be really good." Everything seems overly complicated and/or situational. Can anyone tell me something about these leaks that's going to put us anywhere near the level of Dark Eldar, Orks, etc?

Do we really want to be in that broken S tier faction of armies though? There's absolutely nothing wrong with sitting firmly in A tier as just a really good solid army, you really don't want all the heat that comes with being a busted army. And just because not a lot stuck out as immediately OP/broken at first glance doesn't mean there aren't some good combos to be had in our book, we haven't seen everything yet so we can't assume anything right now.

Mr. Funktastic wrote:

 Toofast wrote:
I just hate that we haven't seen a single leak and thought "wow that's gonna be really good." Everything seems overly complicated and/or situational. Can anyone tell me something about these leaks that's going to put us anywhere near the level of Dark Eldar, Orks, etc?

Do we really want to be in that broken S tier faction of armies though? There's absolutely nothing wrong with sitting firmly in A tier as just a really good solid army, you really don't want all the heat that comes with being a busted army. And just because not a lot stuck out as immediately OP/broken at first glance doesn't mean there aren't some good combos to be had in our book, we haven't seen everything yet so we can't assume anything right now.

I absolutely want to be S tier because S tier armies are almost exclusively what I play against on the regular. I gotta compete with them, not the Tau.

To be clear, S tier is generally "going to get nerfed" territory. I don't expect any of the current S tier to be there in a year. I'd rather have 3-4 years of consistently A tier performance than a year at S tier and 2-3 years at B or C.

novembermike wrote:
To be clear, S tier is generally "going to get nerfed" territory. I don't expect any of the current S tier to be there in a year. I'd rather have 3-4 years of consistently A tier performance than a year at S tier and 2-3 years at B or C.

Druks have held onto S tier for about a year now, though I'll admit GW is trying. Still, it's not guaranteed!

I don't know if I am more dissapointed in the lack of damage for axes, or the nerf to 10 man Allarus bombs. I do think the Power levels are a good indicator that prices may be coming down?

well I was told by a little bird that Custodes power level is a few steps up almost everywhere.
I dont like the blade champion, the Katas look arse, the other leaks are uninspiring...
Based on what we know I personally dont see it - but I trust my source. So I try to hold the negative feelings back. Cant say I'm uber successful..

 Thairne wrote:
well I was told by a little bird that Custodes power level is a few steps up almost everywhere.
I dont like the blade champion, the Katas look arse, the other leaks are uninspiring...
Based on what we know I personally dont see it - but I trust my source. So I try to hold the negative feelings back. Cant say I'm uber successful..

Those are my feelings. New blade champ is Captain Useless, katas can't be that strong because they're so situational and only last a turn, even if they are I absolutely hate the way they're implemented and doing extra bookkeeping, and I haven't seen any leaks of buffs that interest me. I bought a bunch of Custodes right before the leaks and they're still in the boxes. If the codex is just more of the same stuff we've seen so far, they will be going on ebay. If 9th continues to go in the direction of more bookkeeping than my CPA during tax season, I will just go back to playing only specialist games.

 Toofast wrote:

 Thairne wrote:
well I was told by a little bird that Custodes power level is a few steps up almost everywhere.
I dont like the blade champion, the Katas look arse, the other leaks are uninspiring...
Based on what we know I personally dont see it - but I trust my source. So I try to hold the negative feelings back. Cant say I'm uber successful..

Those are my feelings. New blade champ is Captain Useless, katas can't be that strong because they're so situational and only last a turn, even if they are I absolutely hate the way they're implemented and doing extra bookkeeping, and I haven't seen any leaks of buffs that interest me. I bought a bunch of Custodes right before the leaks and they're still in the boxes. If the codex is just more of the same stuff we've seen so far, they will be going on ebay. If 9th continues to go in the direction of more bookkeeping than my CPA during tax season, I will just go back to playing only specialist games.

So army wide 4+++ against MW and free rerolls is not a buff?

Just saw is on discord:
Champion sprue pic


data sheets from the box

I didn't realize he had options for his arm poses. That's awsome, especially for conversions. I also have to say I really like the look of the vault swords. So much better than the sentinel blades.

We knew it would be mono pose, but I'd love to see some scale. One of the best things about custodes is they are basically the size of Bullgryns, which might be the easiest models to paint. No minute details. This guy looks, smaller than the others. Is that just me?

Trajann profile from reboxing


8W, axe is 3 dmg now, 6 attacks

Also, What is Daughters of the Abyss? Is that the new name for Blank ability?

I thought the greatblades were S+3 or is that just that relic sword?

Are the sisters still 5-10 per?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Zero buffs to the Dagger I guess?

From the canhammer discord:

Allarus Shield Cap:
8W, 6A
Inspirational Fighter: Same reroll hit rolls of 1 aura except now it's Core only
Keywords: Infantry, Character, Teleport Homer, Terminator, Allarus, Shield-Captain

Vigilators:
Executioner Greatblades: S+2 AP-3 D2

Prosecutors:
No change, just Troops now

Allarus Vexilla:
Same wargear options, 7W
Vexilla Defensor (aura): When a friendly <SHILED HOST> Core or <SHILED HOST> Character unit is within 6" of this model, it has the benefits of light cover.
Vexilla Imperius (aura): When a friendly <SHILED HOST> Core or <SHILED HOST> Character unit is within 6" of this model, add 1 to the Attacks characteristic to the models in this unit.
Vexilla Magnifica (aura): When a friendly <SHILED HOST> Core or <SHILED HOST> Character unit is within 6" of this model, it has the benefits of dense cover.
Aquilan(?) Relic rule: Your army can only include each type of vexilla (e.g. vexilla magnifica) once.
Keywords: Infantry, Character, Teleport Homer, Terminator, Allarus, Vexilus Praetor


New stuff not including things we already know:
All Custodes units have the Aegis of the Emperor and Martial Katah rule

Blade Champ:
HQ choice
7W, 3+ save
Martial Inspiration: Each time a friendly <SHIELD HOST> unit declares a charge against an enemy unit that is within Engagement Range of this unit, add 1 to the charge roll made for that unit

All Sisters units have the Daughters of the Abyss rule, likely an all in one rule that includes Psychic Abomination since that rule isn't on their datasheet

Witchseeker:
Flamers are AP-1
Seeker Cadre: In the start of the first battle round before the first turn begins, this unit or one Anathema Psykana Transport unit it is embarked within can make a Normal Move at up to 6" as if it were your Movement phase. This unit must end their move more than 9" away from enemy models. If both players have units that can do this, the player who is taking the first turn moves their units first.

Allarus:
4W, 4A
Balistus Grenade Launcher: 18" Assault D3 S5 AP-3 D1 Blast
Axes are S+3 AP-2 D2
Keywords: Infantry, Core, Teleport Homer, Terminator, Allarus, Custodians (yes, Allarus and Custodians are separate keywords)

Im disapointed the witchseekers scout move is only 6". They have a 7" base move and the rhino can move. Why limit it to 6" from your deployment zone?

We needed actual infiltrators but all we got is a shuffle.

Ap-1 on the flamers is great though. I might use mine now for real. I can take 5 in a rhino with 5 prosecutors and be in a pretty decent position at the start of the game.

Allarus going down in points, getting +1str and +6" range on the grenade launchers, and going down in points is pretty good. Along with spears going to str7 I think they are in a good spot. I think the reason they are going to 1-6 unit size is because a block of 10 coming down in the double shoot ka'tah would be a bit insane (here take 40 MC bolter shots at 28" and 20d3 grenade shots with blast at 22" away).

Bikes going to 5 wounds is gonna help alot as well. 5 is in a place where they dont automatically get instagibbed by anti-tank weaponry and damage 2 is pretty inefficient. They arent scared at all of chip damage either.

All characters getting +1 W and A was expected and kinda nessecary for what we pay for them.

I also understand the vexilla changes. The magnifica was substantially better than the other 2 and the defensor was useless before, with this they are pretty much all balanced and will probably cost the same. Ignores cover is a big hit to them now, but dense still stacks with other dense so for armies without ignore cover we are still in a pretty good spot. I just wish the defensor gave light and heavy cover.

Daughters of the Abyss is the new psychic abomination rule yes, and probably reduces Ld like in 30k. Makes alot of sense with custodes going to Ld11.

Just so we are clear, Executioner Greatblades cut through armor BETTER than a Custodian Wielding a freaking axe made of space magic. Also, they do just as much damage as a spear, axe, and lance. I don't get it. Axes should do more, and cost more.

Honestly, I am thinking now that Terminators with Spears are now the best killyness. If the +1 to wound strat survives, there is zero reason to take axes. Wardens with spears are now better than Wardens with axes.

Also, does limited edition mean that the only way to get a Blade Champion from GW now is to buy this box?

Well im thinking now that axes will not cost any additional points possibly.

+1str and -1AP is really only worth 2 points.

Axes are still better against the majority of things because strength 8 is a very good place to be and alot of things have an invun.

If you still have to pay 5 points for the upgrade however I expect a change to the strats.

If spears keep the +1 to wound strat then Castellan strike will need to be buffed to +1D instead of +1 AP.

So Custodes two handed axes are worse than a space marine power fist. Ok.

 Galas wrote:
So Custodes two handed axes are worse than a space marine power fist. Ok.

I mean, they lose a point of AP, but also lose the -1 hit penalty.

So, if we compare a Castellan Axe hitting on a 2+ to a Power Fist hitting on a 4+ to a couple of Armor Save values...
The second percentage number is if the Fist hits on a 3+, not a 4+.



So, compared to a Sergeant with a Power Fist, a Custode with an Axe is only less effective if the target has a 0+ save in melee. Dunno if that's possible right now.
Compared to a Captain with a Power Fist, they're equally as effective against a 3+ save, and worse as the save gets better. But even against a 1+ save (like Termis with Storm Shields) they're close to as good.

So, apparrently miscercordia are now a free upgrade and you can use them with storm shields. Even less reason to take spears now.

So since our codex is delayed, but we have the points cost and all the rules for the blade champion, we're in a weird situation where we an play him with the old codex for a short time, right?

So what are the funny combos we can pull off in that short, but glorious time frame?

Blade champion with eagles eye for 3++ invuln, master of melee captain Commander trait for +2 attacks when more than 6 enemies in engagement range? All seeing annihilator warlord trait with +1 attack banner nearby?

So 18 attacks with exploding 6s on the hurricanis profile? Sounds ricidulous and amazing

Please don't pull the great eye down on us! There are no great combos, we completely suck, nothing to nerf, at all. Keep focusing on the DE.

But seriously, I hope we don't get the BC being an exclusive to this box only, like Castellan Crowe was, and still is. It's currently impossible to get that model now without finding one of those boxes. Because that was a timed exclusive model, on a limited release.

I mean, that's why I am asking for size comps. Is this just as big as a SC with a sword? Do we have the same base/height?

Axes being D2 hurts. Its almost as though they forgot everything in this game has -1 damage now.

So nothing has really changed then. Trajann is still our best heavy-anti monster go to. Telemon can still beat the hell out of most anything in melee or ranged, and bikes are still our effective anti-horde. Terminators are still the best anti-character. Forget all the kata stuff, we have a 4+++ against MWs, and fixed damage weapons. We can still do really well until GW gets their head on right and FAQs these Katas to a more understandable version.

Audustum wrote:
On to my actual thoughts:

Are resident leaker is right. Just more confirmation on that.

Without good stratagem support, I'm skeptical of Terminators being great units. Assuming storm shields remain the same, a big blob of Guardians seems great. Dreads + Jetbikes are the better mobile hammer units.

Terminators before existed mostly on the strategems.

I am betting the brain trust will keep axes 10 more points then spears though even though they aren't even remotely that good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Audustum wrote:

 Toofast wrote:
I just hate that we haven't seen a single leak and thought "wow that's gonna be really good." Everything seems overly complicated and/or situational. Can anyone tell me something about these leaks that's going to put us anywhere near the level of Dark Eldar, Orks, etc?

We're already an A tier faction. Even a small buff can throw us into S. And there are some boosts here. That said, we're still waiting on quite a bit. WT's, Relics, Stratagems, the vast majority of our potential power sources are still unknown.

Custodes are not A tier.

They're a gatekeeper, but only with forgeworld.

I dream of a day when the army I play doesn't rely on 300 dollar models that you better be a fething ace hobbyist to put together to compete


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Toofast wrote:

 Thairne wrote:
well I was told by a little bird that Custodes power level is a few steps up almost everywhere.
I dont like the blade champion, the Katas look arse, the other leaks are uninspiring...
Based on what we know I personally dont see it - but I trust my source. So I try to hold the negative feelings back. Cant say I'm uber successful..

Those are my feelings. New blade champ is Captain Useless, katas can't be that strong because they're so situational and only last a turn, even if they are I absolutely hate the way they're implemented and doing extra bookkeeping, and I haven't seen any leaks of buffs that interest me. I bought a bunch of Custodes right before the leaks and they're still in the boxes. If the codex is just more of the same stuff we've seen so far, they will be going on ebay. If 9th continues to go in the direction of more bookkeeping than my CPA during tax season, I will just go back to playing only specialist games.

The blade champ is almost certainly a vehicle for artifacts and traits, and I suspect you'll get some combos that are overwhelming

stratigo wrote:

Audustum wrote:
On to my actual thoughts:

Are resident leaker is right. Just more confirmation on that.

Without good stratagem support, I'm skeptical of Terminators being great units. Assuming storm shields remain the same, a big blob of Guardians seems great. Dreads + Jetbikes are the better mobile hammer units.

Terminators before existed mostly on the strategems.

I am betting the brain trust will keep axes 10 more points then spears though even though they aren't even remotely that good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Audustum wrote:

 Toofast wrote:
I just hate that we haven't seen a single leak and thought "wow that's gonna be really good." Everything seems overly complicated and/or situational. Can anyone tell me something about these leaks that's going to put us anywhere near the level of Dark Eldar, Orks, etc?

We're already an A tier faction. Even a small buff can throw us into S. And there are some boosts here. That said, we're still waiting on quite a bit. WT's, Relics, Stratagems, the vast majority of our potential power sources are still unknown.

Custodes are not A tier.

They're a gatekeeper, but only with forgeworld.

I dream of a day when the army I play doesn't rely on 300 dollar models that you better be a fething ace hobbyist to put together to compete


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Toofast wrote:

 Thairne wrote:
well I was told by a little bird that Custodes power level is a few steps up almost everywhere.
I dont like the blade champion, the Katas look arse, the other leaks are uninspiring...
Based on what we know I personally dont see it - but I trust my source. So I try to hold the negative feelings back. Cant say I'm uber successful..

Those are my feelings. New blade champ is Captain Useless, katas can't be that strong because they're so situational and only last a turn, even if they are I absolutely hate the way they're implemented and doing extra bookkeeping, and I haven't seen any leaks of buffs that interest me. I bought a bunch of Custodes right before the leaks and they're still in the boxes. If the codex is just more of the same stuff we've seen so far, they will be going on ebay. If 9th continues to go in the direction of more bookkeeping than my CPA during tax season, I will just go back to playing only specialist games.

The blade champ is almost certainly a vehicle for artifacts and traits, and I suspect you'll get some combos that are overwhelming

I have to disagree strongly on the 'not A tier' line. We get consistent placings of Custodes lists. We don't usually take first, but we're frequently a contender. It's also where Art of War (specifically Siegler and Nick Nanavati) places Custodes. Siegler's exact quote is: "They are 100% A tier" and "If they just kept all the Custodes rules, even the trash 8th edition one...and just added a Codex secondary that was good, they would be in a great spot".

https://youtu.be/xrkMF9BHVAs?t=1071

From the competitive aspect, even though we feel lacking verses some of the 9th edition codex's, we actually are only held back by secondaries.

Out of the GT pack, we only have 2-3 missions we can have a reasonable chance to score 100pts on, which is why we cant win tournaments without alot of luck.

If we get a secondary that gives us max points we are definately A tier even without alot of changes.

The problem is of course, we are going to change. Every 9th codex has changed how its played substantially.

It seems GW is going with a more measured approach with us and just trying to address the major grieviances (bike durability, unreliable damage, not as many free rules).

This is why Ka'tahs are not as overtly powerful as other factions free rules.

It really is a hard codex to go all in on since half our units arent even in the book. The designers had to find rules that were in line with 9th edition direction, could effect all our units, and yet not give us a massive boost.


Im personally gonna make it work. The changes arent as big as I'd hoped for, but thats fine.

Having Sisters units spread out and not just in the Elite role will be nice. I'm disappointed the Blade Champion is a 3+ though.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
From the competitive aspect, even though we feel lacking verses some of the 9th edition codex's, we actually are only held back by secondaries.

Out of the GT pack, we only have 2-3 missions we can have a reasonable chance to score 100pts on, which is why we cant win tournaments without alot of luck.

If we get a secondary that gives us max points we are definately A tier even without alot of changes.

The problem is of course, we are going to change. Every 9th codex has changed how its played substantially.

It seems GW is going with a more measured approach with us and just trying to address the major grieviances (bike durability, unreliable damage, not as many free rules).

This is why Ka'tahs are not as overtly powerful as other factions free rules.

It really is a hard codex to go all in on since half our units arent even in the book. The designers had to find rules that were in line with 9th edition direction, could effect all our units, and yet not give us a massive boost.


Im personally gonna make it work. The changes arent as big as I'd hoped for, but thats fine.

It also surprised me that after all the fw gw department integration(gw now writing rules for fw units), custodes, by the end of day, is still a fw reliant fraction.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Having Sisters units spread out and not just in the Elite role will be nice. I'm disappointed the Blade Champion is a 3+ though.

Wasn't one of his special rules that he gets +1 to his armor saves? Doesn't that effectively make him 2+?

 cuda1179 wrote:

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Having Sisters units spread out and not just in the Elite role will be nice. I'm disappointed the Blade Champion is a 3+ though.

Wasn't one of his special rules that he gets +1 to his armor saves? Doesn't that effectively make him 2+?

Only in melee AFAIK. Which is probably the most important to be fair, since he shouldn't be targeted by most shooting assuming he stays behind units like he's supposed to be.

 Grimskul wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Having Sisters units spread out and not just in the Elite role will be nice. I'm disappointed the Blade Champion is a 3+ though.

Wasn't one of his special rules that he gets +1 to his armor saves? Doesn't that effectively make him 2+?

Only in melee AFAIK. Which is probably the most important to be fair, since he shouldn't be targeted by most shooting assuming he stays behind units like he's supposed to be.

Correct. Honestly him being a 3+ save native really isn't as big of a deal as people are making it out to be, they're putting waaaaay too much weight on it. He has a 2+ save in melee which is what matters most and if he's in a position where he's actually getting shot at and not getting some kind of character protection, you misplayed pretty badly somewhere.

I think it's kinda hilarious that even with all the new changes, our faction is literally still mostly the same. Telemon, Trajann, Aquillons. Maybe Shield Guardians. Sprinkle in some bike captains for flavor.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think it's kinda hilarious that even with all the new changes, our faction is literally still mostly the same. Telemon, Trajann, Aquillons. Maybe Shield Guardians. Sprinkle in some bike captains for flavor.

I think this will still work, yeah. I also think that one thing we've seen so far is you could replace the Aquilons with Jetbikes and probably get a similar result but different playstyle. So a little flexibility added.

Still way too much we don't know about the codex to say anything like that with 100% certainty, IMO. New codexes tend to turn internal metas on their head one way or another, so I'm on the side of reserving that kind of judgment until we've seen everything.

And don't forget that the troop sister squad (even with a limit on them) can immediately decrease our troop tax almost 100 points.

KGYM wrote:
And don't forget that the troop sister squad (even with a limit on them) can immediately decrease our troop tax almost 100 points.

Most likely even more than that. The limit rules in the tsons for their tzaangor units is one tzaangor unit per Rubic OR Scarab terminators unit. So its possible, if not easy or sensible, to make detachments with zero Rubic marines. By the same logic (and, again, looking at the box set contents) assuming you have enough allarus and warden units, you could have zero custodes guard units and rely on persecutor sisters for troops. Again, not in itself a great idea, but it could enable some rather interesting list designs if you can leverage those extra points not "sunk" into troops.

for example, you could have 3 prosecutor units, and 3 allarus terminators along with 2 SoS HQ's for a very cheap battalion using the Tsons rule.

450ptsish actually and still have one HQ slot, 3 troop slots, 3 FA slots, 3 Elite slots, and 3 HS slots available.

That would be great if there was a reason to play cheap battalions in 9th. But in all honesty, I don't see the sisters doing much good at all in 9th. Maybe if they were 2W or had some 4++level of cheese, but for right now, I don't want to spend any points for a kinda pointless objective holder. I was really hoping they would get some form of innate deny ability, not dependent on CP, but that was pie in sky thinking.

Considering that SoB get an autodeny on every unit on a 5+... you'd think that ACTUAL BLANKS would be a bit better at that.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
That would be great if there was a reason to play cheap battalions in 9th. But in all honesty, I don't see the sisters doing much good at all in 9th. Maybe if they were 2W or had some 4++level of cheese, but for right now, I don't want to spend any points for a kinda pointless objective holder. I was really hoping they would get some form of innate deny ability, not dependent on CP, but that was pie in sky thinking.

Lol what are you talking about? There's a reason people were begging GW to make Sister troops for us, we would absolutely love cheap battalions for the slots alone. Cheap objective holders was really something we needed, better than leaving a 150+ pt unit on the backline not doing much since somebody has to do it unless you always abandon your own backline objective. Leaving a unit of 5 ob sec sisters back there, especially if it's behind obscuring or LOS blocking terrain has a crazy amount of value for us because that frees up Shield Guard/Sags/etc to actually be aggressive and move up the board to contribute more offensively instead of just sitting back. They're also a great cheap action monkey for us now to do things like banners, and opens up RND or even deploy teleport homer as viable action secondaries for us now especially since they're troops. Also we have no idea what their new Daughters of the Abyss ability does, why are you talking as if you've seen the entire codex already?

Mr. Funktastic wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
That would be great if there was a reason to play cheap battalions in 9th. But in all honesty, I don't see the sisters doing much good at all in 9th. Maybe if they were 2W or had some 4++level of cheese, but for right now, I don't want to spend any points for a kinda pointless objective holder. I was really hoping they would get some form of innate deny ability, not dependent on CP, but that was pie in sky thinking.

Lol what are you talking about? There's a reason people were begging GW to make Sister troops for us, we would absolutely love cheap battalions for the slots alone. Cheap objective holders was really something we needed, better than leaving a 150+ pt unit on the backline not doing much since somebody has to do it unless you always abandon your own backline objective. Leaving a unit of 5 ob sec sisters back there, especially if it's behind obscuring or LOS blocking terrain has a crazy amount of value for us because that frees up Shield Guard/Sags/etc to actually be aggressive and move up the board to contribute more offensively instead of just sitting back. They're also a great cheap action monkey for us now to do things like banners, and opens up RND or even deploy teleport homer as viable action secondaries for us now especially since they're troops. Also we have no idea what their new Daughters of the Abyss ability does, why are you talking as if you've seen the entire codex already?

Just ignore him. I was given that advice before and I should have followed it sooner. A lot less headache.

And again, I fully agree. Pointless to condemn or hype sisters until we really know what they do within the context of the full codex.

Our army wide two damage is looking even worse after seeing the new nid monster army rules. Guess what they got....... army wide invulnerable and -1 damage!

Such rubbish rules writing, use the Wound and AP system as written damn it!

 WisdomLS wrote:
Our army wide two damage is looking even worse after seeing the new nid monster army rules. Guess what they got....... army wide invulnerable and -1 damage!

Such rubbish rules writing, use the Wound and AP system as written damn it!

I'm hoping there is a good +1 damage strat, or a special rule that Custodes damage can never drop below 2.

 cuda1179 wrote:

 WisdomLS wrote:
Our army wide two damage is looking even worse after seeing the new nid monster army rules. Guess what they got....... army wide invulnerable and -1 damage!

Such rubbish rules writing, use the Wound and AP system as written damn it!

I'm hoping there is a good +1 damage strat, or a special rule that Custodes damage can never drop below 2.

That would be nice but it would again be a rule written to counter a rule that is written to counter a rule - its just rock paper scissors game design where one player is screwed if they come up against an army whos rule trumps theirs. Dam 2 weapons are great vs marines but come up against DG and you've wasted a load of points - smae with AP and invulnerable saves.

If they just stuck with the base armour save rules and controlled the inflation of AP - i.e. AP3 is very good and AP4 is super rare then we wouldn't be in a situation where 2+ save models are considered trash unless they have a 5++ as well - at the moment the following can have army wide invulnerable saves - Orks, Drukharii, Harlequins, Custodes, Sisters, mechanicus, Daemons, Knights, Dark Angels, Black Templars, Grey Knights, Thousand Sons, and now Nids with rumors pointing to craftworlds getting one as well - what is the point of the AP system when it doesn't apply to over half the armies in the game.

The same is true for weapon damage - they put marine wounds up (a great decision that adds more variety to the game) and then set about increasing weapons damage to counter them (again fine, makes different weapons good against different targets) but then they decided that they thought certain targets would be hampered by this extra damage so they are now adding -1 damage to a great many units. This has a massive impact on 2 damage weapons making them completely pointless. A far better solution would have been upping the wounds of lots of models to better fit the new dynamic created by having two wound marines.

I suspect I feel so annoyed by this due to having Blood Angels and now Custodes as two of my main armies - both factions pay through the nose for high AP 2 damage weapons which are often pointless and becoming more so with every army release.

I had such high hope for the custode weapons, just looking back through these pages you can see so many great ideas - sweep profiles, high damage axes, bonuses against monsters/vehicles but they just weapon for a flat profile that is slightly changed on each weapon so giving no variety of choice.

I'm still hopeful and pretty upbeat for our coming codex just really annoyed by GWs continued lazy approach.

I would point out that our models all get at least 3-5 attacks. And aside from Orks and SM, there are very few 2 wound troops. So I'm not as butt hurt over the battle there. I am more worried about our anti-tank weapons being glorified noodles. I would hope that our axes get a Strat that basically makes Castellan Strike do +d3 or something. I'd pay 2CP to give all my terminators 3-5 damage range on axes.

Orks don’t have W2 Troops.

Ich completely agree that the extreme proliferation of high AP weapons across all armies in 8th and 9th was very foolish. Counteracting this with the extreme proliferation of invulns and - 1dmg rules is probably necessary, but equally bad game design.

The thing is the power creep train is already at full speed and imo there is no way of slowing that thing atleast during 9th ed.

If they keep this going I don't see how they can do without a hard reset in 10th ed.

Having said all that I don't think 9th is a terrible edition, but it could have been so much better.

Completely agree, i think the base rules 9f 9th are awesome they just have expanded out of them far to far.
The codexs are very flavourful but the rules are cranked up to hard as to make anything baseline pretty unplayable

 WisdomLS wrote:
Completely agree, i think the base rules 9f 9th are awesome they just have expanded out of them far to far.
The codexs are very flavourful but the rules are cranked up to hard as to make anything baseline pretty unplayable

Yeah, the changes to how they approached objectives is much better than 8th, its really the individual codices and the extremely slow rules-release rate that has made 9th ed feel like a slog since so many factions were basically left behind and you only had pretty much 3-5 codices that were consistently doing well since they were actually written for this edition in mind. GW really dropped the ball and should have been more open to a proper digital rules release versus the bizarre backwards approach where you only get the pdf rules once you buy the actual physical product. It would have pivoted much more smoothly during COVID where supply chain issues are so pronounced across all industries at the moment.

It also doesn't help how unimaginative GW is in applying the same -1D and transhuman mechanic across armies. The only good thing is stratagems generally getting toned down for most armies.

If they had digital codexes, this really wouldn't have been a problem. They have used Covid/shipping to weaponize FOMO.

I made a list on the changes and i see way more stuff on the plus side.

Positiv changes:
new blade champion model is awesome
sister are part of the codex and they are troops

buffs:
Trajann axe is 3 dmg
spears are+2 S
swords are +1 S and -1AP 2 dmg shooting
chars get +1 W and +1 A
stances
ka'tahs
witchseeker Flamers are AP-1
witchseekers get a scout move
Grenade Launcher gets +6" range and +1 S
LD up to 11
dmg from d3 do 2d



negativ changes and nerfs:
chars, tanks, flyers and telemon no longer get reroll 1's to hit from captain aura
Vexilla magnifica grants dense cover instead of flat -1 to hit
Your army can only include each type of vexilla (e.g. vexilla magnifica) once

undicided:
Vexilla Defensor
termi units size is now 1-6



What did i miss?

 nordsturmking wrote:
Trajann profile from reboxing

Spoiler:

8W, axe is 3 dmg now, 6 attacks

Can I just say I really hate those symbols


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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
It's currently impossible to get that model now without finding one of those boxes. Because that was a timed exclusive model, on a limited release.

Allow me to introduce you to the wonderful world of ebay where Castellan Crowe is not only plentiful but costs $25-30 just like he would from GW...


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 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Having Sisters units spread out and not just in the Elite role will be nice. I'm disappointed the Blade Champion is a 3+ though.

I have zero interest in buying/building/painting/playing sisters. I feel like throwing them into the Custodes codex will force us to take them to be competitive.


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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
If they had digital codexes, this really wouldn't have been a problem. They have used Covid/shipping to weaponize FOMO.

I don't know whether it's hilarious or sad that they discontinued digital rules in the middle of a global pandemic while literally the entire rest of the world is trying to go as digital as possible. The natural response to production issues and global shipping delays would be to release your rules digitally but GW seems to think it's still 1987.

I'm seriously not sure if GW didn't care about the negative affects of refusing to go digital during Covid, or outright didn't understand why it was the wrong thing to do. I don't know which is worse.

I do know the BC will be an exclusive model on this limited release, and who knows when we'll see them as a separate model, but as soon as anyone gets the model dimensions I'd love to know them.

Also, for the rules list write up, did we lose just the +1 to hit on bikes? I thought they lost the reroll wounds on charge as well.

Also Swords going to Pistol 3 was a pretty good buff as well. It's only 1 extra shot but it's not bad for our best unit.

Has anyone ever done the math on making as many SC's with Swords/shields and Miseracordias as possible, without costing CP? How many is that?

Do Custodes still get easy access to 4++ & 3++ saves?

Unknown, but some have said yes. Or at least they would have told us that we don't by now. The leaker originally said we lose it I think, but they also said the new HQ was a buffer with an aura, which was wrong, so who knows?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Unknown, but some have said yes. Or at least they would have told us that we don't by now. The leaker originally said we lose it I think, but they also said the new HQ was a buffer with an aura, which was wrong, so who knows?

The most consistent leaker (Superninja) said we keep the 4++ and I believe he never said the new guy was a buffer (his leaks were after the weapon profile reveal). So right now, I'd say our odds are that we do have it.

Storm shields and the 3++ are more unknown. No consistent leaker says we lose it and none says we keep it. Lots of speculation about losing it but it's just that: speculation.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I'm seriously not sure if GW didn't care about the negative affects of refusing to go digital during Covid, or outright didn't understand why it was the wrong thing to do. I don't know which is worse.

I do know the BC will be an exclusive model on this limited release, and who knows when we'll see them as a separate model, but as soon as anyone gets the model dimensions I'd love to know them.

Also, for the rules list write up, did we lose just the +1 to hit on bikes? I thought they lost the reroll wounds on charge as well.

Also Swords going to Pistol 3 was a pretty good buff as well. It's only 1 extra shot but it's not bad for our best unit.

Has anyone ever done the math on making as many SC's with Swords/shields and Miseracordias as possible, without costing CP? How many is that?

We don't know anything about the bikes.

Swords are still Pistol 2
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/25/troops-are-better-than-ever-how-the-next-three-codexes-improve-your-units/

A few pages back superninja said "My initial intention to leak part of the revised codex is to bring the discussion here to a reasonable level. People were talking about losing 4++, keeping 3++ shield and all kinds of crazy idea."

So he calls losing the 4++ a crazy idea, which I take to mean 'It's way off the mark', so we do keep it. However he also calls keeping the 3++ crazy, so it seems we lose that.

We don't know what our shields will do as yet, I fully expect us to have a 4++ army wide (instead of a 5++ and a plus 1) so I would also expect that our shields are no longer storm shields but something different so they don't have to follow the same rules.

All shields seem to give +1 to armour saves so I expect that to stay and then they will likely have another bonus, perhaps -1 to be hit in melee like the Galadus dread. Could even make it a relic shield like the indominus captain and give us a 4+++ against MW but that wouldn't mess well with one of the host abilities we've seen.

As far as buffs/nerfs go - I'd put the change from Dd3 -> D2 as a side grade at best, every army released seems to have -1 damage now (new nids have just got it on all their monsters) making 2 damage pointless against alot of targets its needed against - it only seems good VS marines (who are admittedly alot of the meta still).

Other than that I think the shield hosts, stances and having sisters much more accessible (assuming their anti psyker does something useful) are pretty decent buffs, I do fear for the gutting of our strat section though.... I'm expecting ours to be pulled right in like marines and orks not pushed out like admech and drukhari.

I'm still pretty new to 9th and I'm familiar with some of the -1 damage abilities out there, but I'm not familiar with it being as prevalent as people on this board make it out to be.

Am I wrong, or aren't we talking about some units in some armies and some stratagems? There's no way that any army has access to -1 damage across the board except Death Guard, no?

Iggy88 wrote:
I'm still pretty new to 9th and I'm familiar with some of the -1 damage abilities out there, but I'm not familiar with it being as prevalent as people on this board make it out to be.

Am I wrong, or aren't we talking about some units in some armies and some stratagems? There's no way that any army has access to -1 damage across the board except Death Guard, no?

They're talking mainly from a competitive standpoint, because lots of people spam units like those in the majority of the top competing lists right now. So you have to deal with guys like loyalist redemptor or contemptor dreadnoughts that make using most melee custodes units unviable to engage with, you have Ramshackle for most Ork vehicles that are being used competitively, I believe Dark Eldar with a specific Coven subfaction has this as part of their trait and you've already mentioned Death Guard. With very few exceptions, -1D and some version of Transhuman seem to be a consistent thing that is applied across 9th edition codices to help beef up specific units which inevitably skews the armies moving towards these being some of the core of the meta which isn't likely to be changed anytime soon. So it makes a reliance on D2 weaponry a liability and Custodes have very few weapons that have flat 3 damage or higher that isn't from Forgeworld.

Yep, as well as the above you have the Beastboss on Squigosaur, and now Tyranids can put it on all their monsters for free. Altogether that's a huge amount of scary units that demand to be dealt with, with many armies able to get -1D on the majority of their scariest units. On top of this Eldar are rumoured to be getting it on their Wraithguards.

Twilight Pathways wrote:
A few pages back superninja said "My initial intention to leak part of the revised codex is to bring the discussion here to a reasonable level. People were talking about losing 4++, keeping 3++ shield and all kinds of crazy idea."

So he calls losing the 4++ a crazy idea, which I take to mean 'It's way off the mark', so we do keep it. However he also calls keeping the 3++ crazy, so it seems we lose that.

Man if that's what he meant (i.e. he knows it's gone) I'm gonna get mighty salty.

In slightly related news, even without our Codex, we're apparently the 2nd best faction in the game by winrate:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/12/14/metawatch-following-2000-games-across-the-2021-us-open-grand-tournament-series/

Can we stop with the win rate? The codex isn't even out yet. I think Tiberias said it before, We are an A faction, we are not S Tier. If we hold in top 5 at the end of 2023 I'll be happily surprised.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Can we stop with the win rate? The codex isn't even out yet. I think Tiberias said it before, We are an A faction, we are not S Tier. If we hold in top 5 at the end of 2023 I'll be happily surprised.

I'm bringing it up to kind of reinforce Siegler's point, which I quoted earlier (and because I thought it was surprising). That 'even if we keep the trash 8th rules' as long as we get a good faction specific secondary we'll be 'in a good place'. That analysis is looking pretty spot on.

Iggy88 wrote:
I'm still pretty new to 9th and I'm familiar with some of the -1 damage abilities out there, but I'm not familiar with it being as prevalent as people on this board make it out to be.

Am I wrong, or aren't we talking about some units in some armies and some stratagems? There's no way that any army has access to -1 damage across the board except Death Guard, no?

As someone mentioned above its more about the meta armies and units having it than anything else. If you want to do well you will face it.

Off the top of my head.... deathguard, drukhari coverns, drahzar, all dreads, dark angels deathwing (via a relic), thousand sons (a strat), ork beast boss (wl trait) and all ork vehicles, admech flyers, celestine...... all pretty meta stuff.

Well, maybe we'll get some bonkers +1dmg stratagem for axes or something....idk.

What I really want to see though is our version of the space marine "I can take 2 warlord traits" stratagem.
If you wanna play hero hammer, our faction should be the one to be able to do it best. (aside from knights of course)

 WisdomLS wrote:
Completely agree, i think the base rules 9f 9th are awesome they just have expanded out of them far to far.
The codexs are very flavourful but the rules are cranked up to hard as to make anything baseline pretty unplayable

I mean, this happens half the time with GW games


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 Grimskul wrote:

Iggy88 wrote:
I'm still pretty new to 9th and I'm familiar with some of the -1 damage abilities out there, but I'm not familiar with it being as prevalent as people on this board make it out to be.

Am I wrong, or aren't we talking about some units in some armies and some stratagems? There's no way that any army has access to -1 damage across the board except Death Guard, no?

They're talking mainly from a competitive standpoint, because lots of people spam units like those in the majority of the top competing lists right now. So you have to deal with guys like loyalist redemptor or contemptor dreadnoughts that make using most melee custodes units unviable to engage with, you have Ramshackle for most Ork vehicles that are being used competitively, I believe Dark Eldar with a specific Coven subfaction has this as part of their trait and you've already mentioned Death Guard. With very few exceptions, -1D and some version of Transhuman seem to be a consistent thing that is applied across 9th edition codices to help beef up specific units which inevitably skews the armies moving towards these being some of the core of the meta which isn't likely to be changed anytime soon. So it makes a reliance on D2 weaponry a liability and Custodes have very few weapons that have flat 3 damage or higher that isn't from Forgeworld.

Custodes are a melee army that has a single infantry model do more then 2 damage. And he's a special character.

Like, legit, the army remains the telemon show, but I am absolutely unwilling to buy three telemons


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Audustum wrote:

Twilight Pathways wrote:
A few pages back superninja said "My initial intention to leak part of the revised codex is to bring the discussion here to a reasonable level. People were talking about losing 4++, keeping 3++ shield and all kinds of crazy idea."

So he calls losing the 4++ a crazy idea, which I take to mean 'It's way off the mark', so we do keep it. However he also calls keeping the 3++ crazy, so it seems we lose that.

Man if that's what he meant (i.e. he knows it's gone) I'm gonna get mighty salty.

In slightly related news, even without our Codex, we're apparently the 2nd best faction in the game by winrate:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/12/14/metawatch-following-2000-games-across-the-2021-us-open-grand-tournament-series/

Warcom puts out trash statistics.

I'm not even sure where they source this from. All time maybe?

The article seems to indicate it's all of this year's U.S. Opens combined. It does seem to support Siegler and Nick's opinions though (they had us a little lower).

We're actually a good faction. We're getting some buffs that should boost us. I really want to see faction secondaries but I am optimistic.

I might point out that list has IMPERIAL KNIGHTS as 4th. Does anyone actually believe knights are dominating 9th? Or that Dark Angels are among the worst in the game? Or Necrons the worst? This list is sus as hell.

I hope we keep our 4+. Only thing that protects our custodes within reason from mass ap fire you see in the meta

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I might point out that list has IMPERIAL KNIGHTS as 4th. Does anyone actually believe knights are dominating 9th? Or that Dark Angels are among the worst in the game? Or Necrons the worst? This list is sus as hell.

From what I've been seeing on Goons Imperial Knights actually are having a bit of a renaissance. Necrons place occasionally but most people seem to think they do have issues. Competitively, DA are kinda of seen as a dud despite how awesome they look on paper.

So as far as 'how performance at the US Opens went', yeah, I can see it.

 WisdomLS wrote:

That would be nice but it would again be a rule written to counter a rule that is written to counter a rule.

You said it best. I would love it if we could move away from this kind of game design in 40k but it seems we are charging full speed ahead with it.

On a different note, with the datasheet reveals and seemingly true list of leaks we know quite alot about the upcoming codex but there is still alot to speculate upon.

As mentioned above - what do shields do?

We know we still have aegis of the emperor - I'm hoping its a catchall term for various rules (like angels of death). I think we';; have an army wide 4++, hopefully some generic MW mitigation power and possibly something else to help up our damage (maybe ignore damage reduction).

Similarly with sisters we can see they have the Daughters of the abyss rule. - this will cover their anti psyker ability which hopefully has some teeth this edition. I'm thinking a general aura of negative LD, a stackable negative to cast which hopefully has better range than before so can actually be used and I suspect they will have a native negative to hit as that is how they have been portrayed in the HH books.

What do our special characters do? Trajan has gone to D3 which is great but his buffs have taken a major hit as they will only effect Core - I think he will need something else to make him feel special. Knowing GW it will be a -1 dam or transhuman effect......

Valerian should be a proper special character now and not just a shield captain with a negligible additional ability and no customisation - I don't know enough about him to speculate but I think he is a good investigator so perhaps something to reflect that.
SImilarly with Aleya, but its certainly good to have a sister character on board.

Are they going to do anything to make wardens stand out from the crowd? I've asked for a box for christmas so I hope so ;-)

 Grimskul wrote:

 WisdomLS wrote:
Completely agree, i think the base rules 9f 9th are awesome they just have expanded out of them far to far.
The codexs are very flavourful but the rules are cranked up to hard as to make anything baseline pretty unplayable

Yeah, the changes to how they approached objectives is much better than 8th, its really the individual codices and the extremely slow rules-release rate that has made 9th ed feel like a slog since so many factions were basically left behind and you only had pretty much 3-5 codices that were consistently doing well since they were actually written for this edition in mind. GW really dropped the ball and should have been more open to a proper digital rules release versus the bizarre backwards approach where you only get the pdf rules once you buy the actual physical product. It would have pivoted much more smoothly during COVID where supply chain issues are so pronounced across all industries at the moment.

It also doesn't help how unimaginative GW is in applying the same -1D and transhuman mechanic across armies. The only good thing is stratagems generally getting toned down for most armies.

They wouldn't go fully digital so it wouldn't actually help if you can buy PDF. They wouldn't release PDF before book(they don't dilute the sales of launch at all since the first few months is what matters for sales).

Also they won't go for all codexes at once due to marketing reasons anyway.

So no it wouldn't.


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stratigo wrote:

I'm not even sure where they source this from. All time maybe?

Their invitational tournament. Which had bunch of own weird things like organizers made army lists. So don't put too much weight on it.

This was sourced from the 3 gw open major events, each a 3 day 200 plus player tournament played with the official tournament pack.

The invitational consisted of about 8 games, half of which were exhibition game, these stats are obviously not from there - dont just make gak up to suit your agenda! Thats exactly what your complaining about....

I think there is still one thing that could/would kill us, that being if our FW units still get core. IF Telemon or the other high value dreads lose core, our best units instantly become bikes and shield guardians. If they keep core, then pretty much nothing has changed. It's still the Telemon show.

The core keyword was already included in the latest FW book. Telemon doesn't have core, but the other dreads do, as do venetari. Presumably they won't include anything in the codex about FW, so this will likely stay the same. Of course they could errata the FW book, but I doubt they would as the keywords there will only even start to matter for the first time with the release of the codex.

Audustum wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I might point out that list has IMPERIAL KNIGHTS as 4th. Does anyone actually believe knights are dominating 9th? Or that Dark Angels are among the worst in the game? Or Necrons the worst? This list is sus as hell.

From what I've been seeing on Goons Imperial Knights actually are having a bit of a renaissance. Necrons place occasionally but most people seem to think they do have issues. Competitively, DA are kinda of seen as a dud despite how awesome they look on paper.

So as far as 'how performance at the US Opens went', yeah, I can see it.

Now that Knights can actually play the Objective game, they're back as serious contenders (and just as importantly significant gatekeepers). That's pushed their performance back up, especially on the lower to mid tier tables. Their overall swinginess and vulnerability to the kinds of dedicated AT that is all over the game right now means they're at a bit of a disadvantage on the higher tiers, but they can do the work in the right hands.

Sterling191 wrote:

Audustum wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I might point out that list has IMPERIAL KNIGHTS as 4th. Does anyone actually believe knights are dominating 9th? Or that Dark Angels are among the worst in the game? Or Necrons the worst? This list is sus as hell.

From what I've been seeing on Goons Imperial Knights actually are having a bit of a renaissance. Necrons place occasionally but most people seem to think they do have issues. Competitively, DA are kinda of seen as a dud despite how awesome they look on paper.

So as far as 'how performance at the US Opens went', yeah, I can see it.

Now that Knights can actually play the Objective game, they're back as serious contenders (and just as importantly significant gatekeepers). That's pushed their performance back up, especially on the lower to mid tier tables. Their overall swinginess and vulnerability to the kinds of dedicated AT that is all over the game right now means they're at a bit of a disadvantage on the higher tiers, but they can do the work in the right hands.

Can you back up that assertion with actual data? Because right now, the new Secondaries and 9th 2.0 hasn't even been out yet. How has there been any analysis of Knights and the new 9th? Apologies if you are talking about old 9th, in which case, what?

What do you all use to store your custodes? Specifically terminators and guard? There are 200+ storage companies and none of them make it super obvious which foam system to use.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

Audustum wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I might point out that list has IMPERIAL KNIGHTS as 4th. Does anyone actually believe knights are dominating 9th? Or that Dark Angels are among the worst in the game? Or Necrons the worst? This list is sus as hell.

From what I've been seeing on Goons Imperial Knights actually are having a bit of a renaissance. Necrons place occasionally but most people seem to think they do have issues. Competitively, DA are kinda of seen as a dud despite how awesome they look on paper.

So as far as 'how performance at the US Opens went', yeah, I can see it.

Now that Knights can actually play the Objective game, they're back as serious contenders (and just as importantly significant gatekeepers). That's pushed their performance back up, especially on the lower to mid tier tables. Their overall swinginess and vulnerability to the kinds of dedicated AT that is all over the game right now means they're at a bit of a disadvantage on the higher tiers, but they can do the work in the right hands.

Can you back up that assertion with actual data? Because right now, the new Secondaries and 9th 2.0 hasn't even been out yet. How has there been any analysis of Knights and the new 9th? Apologies if you are talking about old 9th, in which case, what?

Knights got a buff in GW's Big FAQ (which wasn't that big) for the year letting the Armigers get access to ObSec. I think that's what he's referring to and it has been producing some results for them.

Mad_Proctologist wrote:
What do you all use to store your custodes? Specifically terminators and guard? There are 200+ storage companies and none of them make it super obvious which foam system to use.

I put Little magnets under the bases and got a metallic Inlay within my Transportbox. That works pretty Fine!

Audustum wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

Audustum wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I might point out that list has IMPERIAL KNIGHTS as 4th. Does anyone actually believe knights are dominating 9th? Or that Dark Angels are among the worst in the game? Or Necrons the worst? This list is sus as hell.

From what I've been seeing on Goons Imperial Knights actually are having a bit of a renaissance. Necrons place occasionally but most people seem to think they do have issues. Competitively, DA are kinda of seen as a dud despite how awesome they look on paper.

So as far as 'how performance at the US Opens went', yeah, I can see it.

Now that Knights can actually play the Objective game, they're back as serious contenders (and just as importantly significant gatekeepers). That's pushed their performance back up, especially on the lower to mid tier tables. Their overall swinginess and vulnerability to the kinds of dedicated AT that is all over the game right now means they're at a bit of a disadvantage on the higher tiers, but they can do the work in the right hands.

Can you back up that assertion with actual data? Because right now, the new Secondaries and 9th 2.0 hasn't even been out yet. How has there been any analysis of Knights and the new 9th? Apologies if you are talking about old 9th, in which case, what?

Knights got a buff in GW's Big FAQ (which wasn't that big) for the year letting the Armigers get access to ObSec. I think that's what he's referring to and it has been producing some results for them.

Pretty much. Combine with Armigers counting as 5 models and big Knights counting as 10 for objective control means it’s significantly more difficult to deny Knights primary scoring.

As for data, both flavors of Knights (spiky and otherwise) are sitting at just under a 50% 4WWR based on event results. Limited data set for sure, but compared to where they’ve been at earlier in the 9th cycle it’s not a difficult conclusion to draw. They’ve for sure been helped by adjustments to AdMech, but with Drukhari where they are I have few doubts about how much is meta shifts versus being actually able to play the Primary game.

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/rfejaf/meta_monday_121321/

Mad_Proctologist wrote:
What do you all use to store your custodes? Specifically terminators and guard? There are 200+ storage companies and none of them make it super obvious which foam system to use.

I play mostly Infantry and FW Dreads, I like magnetization but I moved a lot in my career so I went with a foam solution. Went with Battlefoam since it's sturdy enough to survive being in a moving crate even though it is pricey. If you're considering them I'd wait for one of their sales and try to get it 20-30% off. They also have a flat military discount year round.

Mad_Proctologist wrote:
What do you all use to store your custodes? Specifically terminators and guard? There are 200+ storage companies and none of them make it super obvious which foam system to use.

I use a toolbox (can't remember brand name off the top of my head) that has available pluck-foam tray inserts. The toolboxes can also clamp onto another toolbox from the same line, so you can have short boxes, tall boxes, boxes with wheels, boxes with lids, boxes with drawers, ect. Pretty modular setup, but the pluck foam fits them all.

I like the idea I saw in a video, magnetize the bottom of your minis, and put a dry erase pad in the bottom of a plastic container. Most magnetic dry erase boards have a sticky side that can be glued to the case. Then as long as the magnet is strong enough on your mini, it's not going anywhere. Now if you are talking the big bois like Telemons and the Gunship, you can just carry those in a back pack, or just fling them across the room. Leave it under the car seat, it'll be fine. Those finecast models are designed to be tough.

BTW next revised codex would be craftworld eldar(after gsc), it is...way better than custode's. 2022 would be tyranid/eldar year i guess

yeah, not loving their new leaks. They basically get a DE army. Great. Another OP faction that can crush us easily with their basic units.

Love the leak about how they are essentially getting Miracle dice but called "threads of fate" or something.

Yuuuuup, whole ya'll like Eldar master race. Even if they manage to kick DE out of the running, another Eldar shall take its place.

 Grimskul wrote:
Yuuuuup, whole ya'll like Eldar master race. Even if they manage to kick DE out of the running, another Eldar shall take its place.

Wait, what's happening now? Do we know something new about eldar? Let me guess their shooting gets some extra ap and range.

https://spikeybits.com/2021/08/rumors-new-combined-eldar-40k-codex-plastic-kits.html

we dont KNOW, but we got a whole buncha rumours.
And none of them look fun or on the same power level as things we got.

The threads of fate thing was teased as similar to miracle dice, only you can change your opponents dice instead of your own.

This is big cringe for us, as it means they will make us fail saves.

Hopefully its a bit more limited in what it can effect and in how many of these dice they can accumulate.

They did say something about how you roll so many dice at the start of the game (based on size) and thats all they get.

rumours say they can replace a dice that they roll with a dice that they rolled if it is equal and have it count as a 6 IIRC

that means they can only change their dice, and not yours, but to make THEIR saves if they want it. That sounds more fair, but is also very dangerous. Roll a 3" charge, make it 12". Boom.

Or, they now do Mortals on 6s with one of their guns, I forget which.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Or, they now do Mortals on 6s with one of their guns, I forget which.

The D-cannon/scythes if I remember correctly.

Come on guys! Stop lamenting about our faction before they even get their new codex. The latest Meta Watch even shows that the Custards are still pretty damn good and that’s still 8th codex. I’m not going to cry over Eldar that don’t exist yet.

Back on point, I think Wardens are going to be a thing for sure if they get a points drop.

 Third_Age_of_Baggz wrote:
Come on guys! Stop lamenting about our faction before they even get their new codex. The latest Meta Watch even shows that the Custards are still pretty damn good and that’s still 8th codex. I’m not going to cry over Eldar that don’t exist yet.

Back on point, I think Wardens are going to be a thing for sure if they get a points drop.

man my informant got the codex like almost two months ago, gw screwed up, thats it. But custodes will be in upper middle position of A tier fraction for sure.

If your "informant" Got the full codex, why do we still have unanswered questions? Can't you just tell us what the statlines are for certain units? What there are for strats?

Probably because it is an earlier revision of the codex from a playtester.
The codex most likely got delayed to Jan due to the book not arriving in time from the printers in china.

superninja_834 wrote:

 Third_Age_of_Baggz wrote:
Come on guys! Stop lamenting about our faction before they even get their new codex. The latest Meta Watch even shows that the Custards are still pretty damn good and that’s still 8th codex. I’m not going to cry over Eldar that don’t exist yet.

Back on point, I think Wardens are going to be a thing for sure if they get a points drop.

man my informant got the codex like almost two months ago, gw screwed up, thats it. But custodes will be in upper middle position of A tier fraction for sure.

I appreciate that you gave us an advanced preview, but I'm not sure I agree with your balance view. We're already a good contender. A small push is all we need. While thr Eldar mechanic is novel, we don't need something that crazy (even though it'd be fun).

I remember when the GK book came out, the public reaction was they were B+ to A tier. People thought Interceptor and Strike spam were the way. Then a few folks pointed out Dreads were actually good. All the sudden, Dread lists were podium'ing and winning tournaments to the point that some competitive scene watchers were complaining we lived in a Dark Eldar, AdMech and GK world.

We need strats and secondaries, but there's some good stuff here to goose us over the finish line.

We don't really have enough details right now to really say for sure, it's only one person's opinion. And besides, I hardly think being an upper A tier army qualifies as "dropping the ball" on our codex, that's an excellent place to be. We just don't know how all our rules will interact with each other yet or even put any of it on the table to get the reps and experience in actually playing the army with the new codex. People have been wrong on first impressions with new codexes before, I'm old enough to remember Drukhari players complaining about how they changed Power From Pain and DG players on how they changed DR, things turned out pretty well for both of them. The doom and gloom right now is unwarranted and based on pure conjecture.

So, since we know that allarus are apparently able to run in 1 man units now, has anyone got an opinion on the use of them in 1 or 2 man units? Could they have value as cheap(ish) objective holders, as deep strike screening, or in some other job? Obviously, they would clog up the an elite slot doing so, but curious if this ability to deploy singly is useful or not.

I dont think so.
They cant do actions
and while they're tough, you cant not rely on them entirely for obj holding. They're not invincible... and for DS screening I'd prefer troop sisters.
I mean if you have points to spare, as they're now pretty much our cheapest unit, drop one or two in to get to the limits and threating a backpiece artillery. Losing one turn of shooting if you can tag it is a nice bonus.
But other than that... I still think 3-6 man are the norm.
Maybe one can use them as speed bumps to block some choke, but damn, that feels BAD.

they can certainly do actions, just not the new ROD.

They are great for raising banners and/or doing the new deploy homers action secondary.

There might also be a faction specific secondary that use's actions.

Honestly at 60pts apiece, 1 or 2 single man units are looking nice at shoring up 2 of our weakenses. Those being number of deployment drops and number of units on the table.

Lets say your not spamming dreads, but want to run bikes. You can now take 3 units of bikes, 2 3man guard, a unit of prosecutors, whichever HQ's you want, and 3-4 single man allarus units with a vexilla.

In the deployment phase you'd almost assuredly have to drop your bikes down before your opponent dropped his anti-tank, but now you have potentially 6-8 drops you can put down before you even have to put a single bike squad down, letting you hide them much better.


It also makes getting Behind Enemy Lines almost an auto-take secondary for us. 4 units of single allarus is gonna guarantee us 8 points with that secondary and likely net us more.

xerxeskingofking wrote:
So, since we know that allarus are apparently able to run in 1 man units now, has anyone got an opinion on the use of them in 1 or 2 man units? Could they have value as cheap(ish) objective holders, as deep strike screening, or in some other job? Obviously, they would clog up the an elite slot doing so, but curious if this ability to deploy singly is useful or not.

Assuming that carries over into the codex, I can see a role for them as backline objective holders and banners action monkeys. They'll eat into Elite slots but I don't think you'd really need more than 2 units of 1 for the role and I feel like we'll likely be running battalions now since Prosecutors are Troops now so the slots won't be a huge issue. You could also use Prosecutors to do this but with single Allarus you can now use those Prosecutors to do things like RND and Deploy Teleport Homer now, since they're cheap Troops they're the ideal unit to do those actions if you strategic reserve them (and if they get access to deep strike even better).

I don't see us remaining a B tier if we don't see any massive points buffs. Right now we lose to almost every Meta matchup, HARD. Right now we have the most expensive, least threatening units in the game. Our basic troop unit is 50ppm, and has very little offensive power (which is the name of the game in 9th) to show for it. What good is a 2+4++ 4W stat line if you can't kill anything and get shot off the table very efficiently?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I don't see us remaining a B tier if we don't see any massive points buffs. Right now we lose to almost every Meta matchup, HARD. Right now we have the most expensive, least threatening units in the game. Our basic troop unit is 50ppm, and has very little offensive power (which is the name of the game in 9th) to show for it. What good is a 2+4++ 4W stat line if you can't kill anything and get shot off the table very efficiently?

Jesus, are you always like this?

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I don't see us remaining a B tier if we don't see any massive points buffs. Right now we lose to almost every Meta matchup, HARD. Right now we have the most expensive, least threatening units in the game. Our basic troop unit is 50ppm, and has very little offensive power (which is the name of the game in 9th) to show for it. What good is a 2+4++ 4W stat line if you can't kill anything and get shot off the table very efficiently?

Jesus, are you always like this?

Don't feed the troll.

 Grimskul wrote:
Yuuuuup, whole ya'll like Eldar master race. Even if they manage to kick DE out of the running, another Eldar shall take its place.

Some flavor of eldar has been the best army in the game for three quarters of the game's life. Eldar are usually the OP race.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Third_Age_of_Baggz wrote:
Come on guys! Stop lamenting about our faction before they even get their new codex. The latest Meta Watch even shows that the Custards are still pretty damn good and that’s still 8th codex. I’m not going to cry over Eldar that don’t exist yet.

Back on point, I think Wardens are going to be a thing for sure if they get a points drop.

Custards are a gatekeeper. Which is fine unless you want to regularly podium, in which case it isn't fine.

The new book maybe make them compete. But the rules look really clunky.

stratigo wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Yuuuuup, whole ya'll like Eldar master race. Even if they manage to kick DE out of the running, another Eldar shall take its place.

Some flavor of eldar has been the best army in the game for three quarters of the game's life. Eldar are usually the OP race.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Third_Age_of_Baggz wrote:
Come on guys! Stop lamenting about our faction before they even get their new codex. The latest Meta Watch even shows that the Custards are still pretty damn good and that’s still 8th codex. I’m not going to cry over Eldar that don’t exist yet.

Back on point, I think Wardens are going to be a thing for sure if they get a points drop.

Custards are a gatekeeper. Which is fine unless you want to regularly podium, in which case it isn't fine.

The new book maybe make them compete. But the rules look really clunky.

I don't get this gatekeeper or 'we suck' mentality in this thread. We're a very strong faction even without our Codex. Some examples:

Custodes - 1st Place at Gameology Pasadena Old-Town Showdown GT
Custodes - 2nd Place at Maple City GT
Custodes - 2nd Place at Legion Events November
Custodes - 2nd Place at Ogre's Den Grand Tournament
Custodes - 2nd Place at Paragon City Games Lightly Salted GT
Custodes - 3rd Place at Merry Slaaneshmas
Custodes - 3rd Place at YHP Fall Brawl
Custodes - 6th Place at UKTC Coventry 3-Day Event (Major) (went 7-1)
Custodes - 7th and 10th Places at New Orleans Open (Major) (both finished 5-1)
Custodes - 9th Place at Invasion (Major) (finished 4-1)
Custodes Soup - 10th Place at Westminster Hobbytown GT (Major) (finished 4-1)

That's not gatekeeper performance. That's not weak performance. That's just events from November 11 to present! It's a month! There's 7 podium finishes there!

Audustum wrote:

That's not gatekeeper performance. That's not weak performance. That's just events from November 11 to present! It's a month! There's 7 podium finishes there!

I totally agree. And i think too many people here think that the army is the main reason someone places high in a tournament but it is mostly the player. if you are a really good plyer you can win a tournament with a B-tier or lower army. on the other hand if you are a averege player can't win ven with a S-tier army.

See, I agree on that to a point.

Custodes problem lies in the fact that certain armies utterly nueter our preformance and the fact that its almost impossible to score max points on some of the missions.

You certainly can win tournaments with custodes, if you dont get bad matchups or even tough matchups on certain missions.

If you go to a RTT and never play one of the 2 domination style missions for example you can absolutely smash.

If you do a 5 or 6 game GT and somehow get easy matchups on the 2 domination missions you can also win.

If you play against DG, orks, and necrons the whole tournament you will not win said tournament no matter who you are. Even if you win the games, they will force your score low enough that you wont finish top table.

I don't mind waiting until february for the codex but I'm so disappointed that GW decided to stop selling just the online version. As a company I think you should also help the environment! People will always find ways to pirate anything.