ph34r wrote: Custodes newbie here, so many options for each of our kits, what to choose?
I get the impression that I will need exactly 1 vexilla/standard bearer guy. Should I make this from a basic Custode?
The Allarus Terminators... are they worth making into a shield captain or vexilla? Or best to just make a squad of 3 guys?
Custodian Wardens... Use them to make a shield captain and/or Vexilla? Make them into a normal squad with axes or spears?
welcome to the golden club!
with your questions
1) i would recommend you build the vexilla out of a regular custodes and give him a storm shield and misracorda, so he has the extra survivability to stay alive.
2) I personally would say go for a squad of 3 termies, but its your call.
3) currently (ie with the 8th edition rules updated by the PA: war of the spider book and 9th ed imperial armour compendium) wardens are rather a poor choice. thier main problem is they are Elite choices and in competition with other Elite choices that, frankly are better uses of the space and points. its not that they are "bad", its just they are not better enough than the regular troops to really justify themselves. HOWEVER, that might change in the new codex, as GW have been trying to improve the suboptimal units in most codexs this edition and its quite possible they will make Wardens more useful in this coming edition.
Eihnlazer wrote: If you buy a box of allarus, make one Shield cap, one vex, and one regular termy.
2 box's would be ideal though.
For wardens, i bought a box and then got the FW upgrade kit and turned them into saggitarum as the models look great.
Out of curiosity, what makes the Allarus Vexilla better than the custodian vexilla? With a particular thought to, the terminator has 2+/5++, the custodian has 1+/4++?
Grimskul wrote: It really depends if GW limits the HH in numbers in any significant way, but they're definitely going to be a hard counter to the dread spam lists going around in the current scene.
Even just 3 HH's should do it I think. Three firing together is averaging 13.75ish damage even against a Telemon (my math will be a little off but that should be a pretty close idea). This is assuming no strat/HQ support of any kind, just the 'naked' models.
The bigger issue is to the Achillus/Galatus. Switching to 2+ to Wound hurts and takes the average to about 20 wounds, meaning they can realistically pop two of these Dreads per turn with enough consistency to make the Shield Boys have a sad day.
They'll pop infantry too but it's a much bigger waste of their shot due to overkill. 4W infantry are especially good because you resolve MW before regular damage, so the 3 damage gets eaten to take the model to 1W and then all the giant damage after that is overkill.
I run two Achillus Dreads (love the models more than anything else) and the HH concerns me quite a bit, although I haven't seen a Tau player since my last PCS.
Also, these Hammerheads are still weak to the same old things, As Son Goku once said, "I'mma try punching them, REALLY HARD."
Our Spear Naughts will still be top slayers in this. Actually, for the cost, Melta Contemptors would do good work with this as well.
2 of these render telemons non viable, which is a big deal since custodes lean on telemons.
The only other choice is the all shield list (which is getting worse in the new codex with a 4++ invul cap), and, well, I suspect tau will have the mid level shooting to ruin shieldguard too
I was thinking, that railgun shot even hurts when it shoots at Custodian Guard. If it hits a Sword/Board custodian he's toast. But then you apply mortal wounds too, which would be enough to take out another guard. An unbuffed Hammerhead can expect to take out 65 points of Custodians per turn with just its main gun.
cuda1179 wrote: I was thinking, that railgun shot even hurts when it shoots at Custodian Guard. If it hits a Sword/Board custodian he's toast. But then you apply mortal wounds too, which would be enough to take out another guard. An unbuffed Hammerhead can expect to take out 65 points of Custodians per turn with just its main gun.
see, i dont feel that a 200 point tank shooting as its only offensive option killing 65 points of custodians, thats within an acceptable return on investment for me, at least compared to a 180point dread or 300 point telemon.
Yeah, lets be honest, this is still just a really poorly designed faction, with a single big gun unit. That is still T7 13W, horrible bracketing, and a 3+ sv. You can shoot this off the table or even spear it off the table in a single FGLTC charge. Hell, a 5x squad of Bikes can one shot it in a single shooting phase with our new missiles, hell likely even with the HBs.
Eihnlazer wrote: If you buy a box of allarus, make one Shield cap, one vex, and one regular termy.
2 box's would be ideal though.
For wardens, i bought a box and then got the FW upgrade kit and turned them into saggitarum as the models look great.
Out of curiosity, what makes the Allarus Vexilla better than the custodian vexilla? With a particular thought to, the terminator has 2+/5++, the custodian has 1+/4++?
The purpose of a vexilla is to buff your army so he needs more survivabilty and mobility options. Terminator armor gives both. The +1w is gonna be more useful than a +1sv in most situations as they both have a 4++. Granted the regular vex can take a spear or axe and be better in melee, but I've always been a fan of the termy vex.
I was always kind of hoping we could/would get the fluff based Vex. The Vex is purported in the books to be the best warrior or most experienced in the small teams. The Grizzled old Sgt to the Captain. And considering most Custodes are 1k+ years old, that's saying something. I'd love for the Vex to have abilities besides just the flag. +1 to wound against Chaos or Xenos (Chosen at battle round zero) or something. Just give them their due.
Eihnlazer wrote: If you buy a box of allarus, make one Shield cap, one vex, and one regular termy.
2 box's would be ideal though.
For wardens, i bought a box and then got the FW upgrade kit and turned them into saggitarum as the models look great.
Out of curiosity, what makes the Allarus Vexilla better than the custodian vexilla? With a particular thought to, the terminator has 2+/5++, the custodian has 1+/4++?
The purpose of a vexilla is to buff your army so he needs more survivabilty and mobility options. Terminator armor gives both. The +1w is gonna be more useful than a +1sv in most situations as they both have a 4++. Granted the regular vex can take a spear or axe and be better in melee, but I've always been a fan of the termy vex.
Is that correct, the allarus have 4++? I must be misreading somewhere. Which rule gives them the 4++?
Oh, gotcha. So basic custodes have 5++ improved to 4++, allarus custodes have 5++ improved to 4++, and custodes with storm shields have 4++ which doesn't get improved?
ph34r wrote: Oh, gotcha. So basic custodes have 5++ improved to 4++, allarus custodes have 5++ improved to 4++, and custodes with storm shields have 4++ which doesn't get improved?
Basically, everyone has 4++?
Right now, with the current 8th Ed Codex, custodes with storm shields have a 4++ that gets improved to a 3++.
This might change in our new codex which is due to be released....soon hopefully since it should be out already, but has been delayed.
Yeah I think it's unlikely we'll get to keep the 3++ with Storm Shields since GW for the most part is trying to get rid of 3++, it hurt losing it on Ahriman to be a once per game ability.
So the storm shield has a special group of words, it's pedantic, but important. It improves the Save roll by +1, it does not give +1 to the save. Small, but important. The Shields for Custodes make their overall profile 1+3++5+++, until we get the full codex with rules and explanations, some time in Feb/March time. The new box set will not have a full codex, so expect to still play 8th rules until then.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So the storm shield has a special group of words, it's pedantic, but important. It improves the Save roll by +1, it does not give +1 to the save. Small, but important. The Shields for Custodes make their overall profile 1+3++5+++, until we get the full codex with rules and explanations, some time in Feb/March time. The new box set will not have a full codex, so expect to still play 8th rules until then.
They don't have a 5+++, never have....where's that coming from now? Custodes only have a FNP against psychic and even then it's only on 6s.
The storm shields are rather straight forward.... you get a flat 4++ and your armor save gets improved by 1. Right now custodes Infantry and bikers get +1 to their invulns, hence why we have the stellar 1+ save, 3+ invuln right now on our shield guys. Which we might lose, or likely lose in the new codex.
Right, I should have made my comment more specific. I thought one of the leaker's bits was a 5+ against ALL MWs? Instead of a 6+++ only against MWs in the Psychic phase. (Important Distinction there). It seemed odd that we would loose the +1 to all, but gain a 5+ against all MWs, but as others have said, the leaks appear to be valid so far?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Right, I should have made my comment more specific. I thought one of the leaker's bits was a 5+ against ALL MWs? Instead of a 6+++ only against MWs in the Psychic phase. (Important Distinction there). It seemed odd that we would loose the +1 to all, but gain a 5+ against all MWs, but as others have said, the leaks appear to be valid so far?
I think that leak was a 4+++ to MW and while we do get it, it's tied to one of our sub-factions.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Right, I should have made my comment more specific. I thought one of the leaker's bits was a 5+ against ALL MWs? Instead of a 6+++ only against MWs in the Psychic phase. (Important Distinction there). It seemed odd that we would loose the +1 to all, but gain a 5+ against all MWs, but as others have said, the leaks appear to be valid so far?
I think that leak was a 4+++ to MW and while we do get it, it's tied to one of our sub-factions.
Thank you for the correction then! Still, right now we are using 8th rules until late Q1 2022 when the codex actually goes out. Earlier if it gets "leaked" to a russian website that instantly puts it on the Net. Praying for Custodes owning hackers...
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Yeah, lets be honest, this is still just a really poorly designed faction, with a single big gun unit. That is still T7 13W, horrible bracketing, and a 3+ sv. You can shoot this off the table or even spear it off the table in a single FGLTC charge. Hell, a 5x squad of Bikes can one shot it in a single shooting phase with our new missiles, hell likely even with the HBs.
5 bikes is 450 points man.
Which is probably triple what a hammerhead will cost, and 3 hammerheads will kill the entire bike squad in a turn, a 1:1 return.
We have no idea what a Hammerhead will cost, and those 5 bikes will still have a purpose after dispatching the hammerheads. Anything charging them out of reinforcements will likely kill a hammerhead, even a squad of spear wardens. Bikes are just better charge odds. 3 New and improved Spear wardens with the +1 to wound strat drop one. A Melta Contemptor drops one if it makes the charge. There are still ways to deal with this.
You all forget a lil thing - the thing has 72" range.
You have to get there. And the Hammerhead isnt the only thing on the board.
Also, if he rolls going first and you rely on DS to get it, you give it 2 rounds of shooting.
It could also easily hide behind obscuring, come in from reserves or anything else.
There is basically no way this thing is unable to get its 100% return of value if the tau player isnt totally incompetent.
The only thing you can do to counter this thing is bring no vehicles. And even then, it can probably just shoot of 2 Shield Guard per turn off an objective.
This thing kills 120 pts at LEAST per turn if it gets to shoot, even at suboptimal custodes targets.
Thairne wrote: You all forget a lil thing - the thing has 72" range.
You have to get there. And the Hammerhead isnt the only thing on the board.
Also, if he rolls going first and you rely on DS to get it, you give it 2 rounds of shooting.
It could also easily hide behind obscuring, come in from reserves or anything else.
There is basically no way this thing is unable to get its 100% return of value if the tau player isnt totally incompetent.
The only thing you can do to counter this thing is bring no vehicles. And even then, it can probably just shoot of 2 Shield Guard per turn off an objective.
This thing kills 120 pts at LEAST per turn if it gets to shoot, even at suboptimal custodes targets.
So does Mortarion. And Belakor. And Eradicators. And Wytch Cults. And Drashaar (Sp?) And Knights. Lethality is not a new thing for 40k. And as others have said, we have yet to see the codex. I am sad we don't get many big strong 3 damage weapons, but oh well. I'd rather not be part of that problem right now.
A lot of those things can be screened and/or outranged.
Nothing of those reaches across the table from behind obscuring T1, which is my major gripe.
Its unstoppable if he goes first and makes its points back basically.. always.
We have no idea how much it will cost. It is expected to be around 200. It might be 300points. It might be like LR where it has to be fielded as a unit of 1-3. We have no idea.
Side question: Anyone out there with Warhammer + battle app? How long does it generally take GW to update their units once the codex drops? I am wondering if it would be simpler to just subscribe to the app or buy the codex when it comes out later. I just don't see my store getting many, and those they get will likely be snatched up.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: We have no idea how much it will cost. It is expected to be around 200. It might be 300points. It might be like LR where it has to be fielded as a unit of 1-3. We have no idea.
Side question: Anyone out there with Warhammer + battle app? How long does it generally take GW to update their units once the codex drops? I am wondering if it would be simpler to just subscribe to the app or buy the codex when it comes out later. I just don't see my store getting many, and those they get will likely be snatched up.
A matter of days, but you will still need the codex code from a book, or you wont get strats, warlord traits, relics, unit abilities etc.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So there is literally no way to legally get a digital copy of the codex?
Separate from the purchase of the physical book, no. Even the warhammer app is missing information like secondary objectives, as a matter of deliberate omission so they don't miss out on that sweet dead tree sales profit
Thairne wrote: You all forget a lil thing - the thing has 72" range.
You have to get there. And the Hammerhead isnt the only thing on the board.
Also, if he rolls going first and you rely on DS to get it, you give it 2 rounds of shooting.
It could also easily hide behind obscuring, come in from reserves or anything else.
There is basically no way this thing is unable to get its 100% return of value if the tau player isnt totally incompetent.
The only thing you can do to counter this thing is bring no vehicles. And even then, it can probably just shoot of 2 Shield Guard per turn off an objective.
This thing kills 120 pts at LEAST per turn if it gets to shoot, even at suboptimal custodes targets.
So does Mortarion. And Belakor. And Eradicators. And Wytch Cults. And Drashaar (Sp?) And Knights. Lethality is not a new thing for 40k. And as others have said, we have yet to see the codex. I am sad we don't get many big strong 3 damage weapons, but oh well. I'd rather not be part of that problem right now.
Drukhari utterly stomp shieldstodes and only telemons prop our faction up against them. Using them as an example is kinda silly because they are far and away the best faction in the game and unfair to play against
Unfair? How do you judge fairness? For Custodes, maybe. For every other faction? Not really. Except for the codexes that have yet to arrive, most factions have a way to deal with them. Granted it's not TAC, but they have ways.
You can't judge another faction solely by how we interact with them. Rock thinks paper is unfair.
Unfair for everyone. Drukhari have, despite 3 rounds of nerfs, been crushing competition still. And the book is so overtuned that you have to take tournament level list building skills to make a BAD list.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Pre-orders, that mean actually in hands maybe late january/early feb?
last time i got a pre-order (tsons codex in the summer), it was in my hands pretty quickly, i think within a week of the "Live" date. that was inside the UK, obviously. not sure what it is to romania, it might well be early feb.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Sorry, I am US, my Voip says romania though. Do we have a live date yet for pre-order?
ah, fair enough. yhea, my point still stands, i dont know how fast they are in the US, but in the UK it was less than 2 weeks form start of pre-order to book in my hands.
They make the pre-orders live on Saturday, normally, and then on Sunday announce the next set of pre-orders for the following Saturday.
Eihnlazer wrote: Since we didnt get many changes to statlines we are mostly just hoping for points reductions.
Compared to other 9th ed. armies we are a bit overcosted.
I dunno, we still have yet to see the "chapter tactics" and the chance at some revised relics gives me hope. Also, abilities like the Wardens may have been re-written. Who knows? Like I said I'm just hoping for cost reductions at this point. That would be the socks and ties of christmas presents for me. Special gift would be a relic that gives greater fixed damage as an aura.
Well, Trajaan gets +1A and Wound. Axe is s10 ap-3 3 damage, but we knew that right? Just saw the auspex tactics "leaks". He's still our go to beatstick for big nasty targets. He's still got a 2+3++ though.
A full sheet would've been really nice... see what the Aegis of the Emperor etc. does. But alas, we gotta wait for the YT reviews... and squint really, really hard!
I hope for you that it's not disappointing, and you get a lot of enjoyment out of it. I will continue painting my box of shame, hoping that bikes and Wardens somehow they get a massive buff.
The melta missle we knew about right? Still nice I guess.
But the interceptor lance having the same profile as the spear is really annoying to me. I'm really curious if jetbikes now actually get a special rule to still wound better in some way
Out weapon profiles just feel sooo low effort...they could have done so much cool stuff.
its very creative...
but i can live with that if the rules in the codex are good and fun to play.
On the plus side the biker cap has 9 wounds now so no need to spend CP and hopefully the FW data sheets get updated on release day.
I think an awful lot rides on what aegis of the emperor actually does now.
We are assuming it still provides an invuln save of some sort - I suspect a 4++ army wide.
I'm hoping it also has another defensive buff included as the game is so lethal now a T5, 2+ is pretty easy to cut through - I'm hoping they reduce the AP of all attacks or something.
It seems unlikely but some form of damage buff would be really nice - I'm super salty that our entire army does flat 2 damage now, just as everything in the game seems to get -1 damage. Perhaps we could ignore all damage reduction in melee?
Seriously, as mentioned above, the weapon profiles are so boring, vanilla and uninspired.
A guardian spear is a weapon of legend and now it is a slightly better power weapon. The castellan axe on the cover of the book has a blade bigger than a man but only does 2 damage, where are the special rules - I want sweep profiles and attacks that have a hope in hell of doing real damage to anything tough we come up against in the meta.
Nid monsters have all been given an invul save and -1 damage, what the hell sould we use against them? Harsh language will work as well as our high AP, Dam 2 weapons :-(
WisdomLS wrote: I think an awful lot rides on what aegis of the emperor actually does now.
We are assuming it still provides an invuln save of some sort - I suspect a 4++ army wide.
I'm hoping it also has another defensive buff included as the game is so lethal now a T5, 2+ is pretty easy to cut through - I'm hoping they reduce the AP of all attacks or something.
It seems unlikely but some form of damage buff would be really nice - I'm super salty that our entire army does flat 2 damage now, just as everything in the game seems to get -1 damage. Perhaps we could ignore all damage reduction in melee?
Seriously, as mentioned above, the weapon profiles are so boring, vanilla and uninspired.
A guardian spear is a weapon of legend and now it is a slightly better power weapon. The castellan axe on the cover of the book has a blade bigger than a man but only does 2 damage, where are the special rules - I want sweep profiles and attacks that have a hope in hell of doing real damage to anything tough we come up against in the meta.
Nid monsters have all been given an invul save and -1 damage, what the hell sould we use against them? Harsh language will work as well as our high AP, Dam 2 weapons :-(
How about a any of our dreadnaughts, heavy dreadnaughts, tanks, or Trajaan? We have a lot of 3 and 4 damage melee attackers.
I'm still pissed we gave up our anti-flyer missile option. That would have been helpful given how Eldar Jetbikes are about to become curbstomp levels of cheese again.
I'm worried about that as well.
I just dont get why they refused to give the Codex ONE 3D weapon. At all.
Everything is forgeworld... I guess someone just search&replaced them by the rule D3->2D and didn't think twice about it.
Alright, so new article on the community site about captain commanders:
As far as I understand it, Captain Commander upgrades now cost points instead of CP and every one of our three different shield captains (normal, terminator and bike) has access to three different Captain Commander traits.
So a bike captain won't get access to unstoppable destroyer for example, since that is a trait previewed for the terminator captain.
Correct me if I'm wrong here.
The traits themselves seem....fine?
Edit: the Salvus Kata seems nice with Venatari. Especially if you can give them both benefits, but since Salvus lets out infantry double shoot, it likely means we'll lose superior firing patterns.
Thairne wrote: I'm worried about that as well.
I just dont get why they refused to give the Codex ONE 3D weapon. At all.
Everything is forgeworld... I guess someone just search&replaced them by the rule D3->2D and didn't think twice about it.
Something I just picked up on, that kata references "auric" weapons. Clearly this is a new tag for some specific weapons. I wonder if it's a name level tag like "bolt" or "plasma" or will it be a rules level tag like blast ? The latter seems easier to do but would require renaming half our weapons to be auric spears or something which I think we would have seen mention of by now
xerxeskingofking wrote: Something I just picked up on, that kata references "auric" weapons. Clearly this is a new tag for some specific weapons. I wonder if it's a name level tag like "bolt" or "plasma" or will it be a rules level tag like blast ? The latter seems easier to do but would require renaming half our weapons to be auric spears or something which I think we would have seen mention of by now
I think there will just be a list on the last page of the codex which weapons count as "auric". Guess what, Venatari pistols and Sagittarum Bolters will 99% not be on that list until some obscure FAQ comes out 2 months from now.
Do you guys think the "give a unit access to both abilities of current Kata" captain commander ability will give our bog standard shield captain a place in lists? Cause nobody played a normal shield captain in idk....two years? Ever?
xerxeskingofking wrote: Something I just picked up on, that kata references "auric" weapons. Clearly this is a new tag for some specific weapons. I wonder if it's a name level tag like "bolt" or "plasma" or will it be a rules level tag like blast ? The latter seems easier to do but would require renaming half our weapons to be auric spears or something which I think we would have seen mention of by now
I think there will just be a list on the last page of the codex which weapons count as "auric". Guess what, Venatari pistols and Sagittarum Bolters will 99% not be on that list until some obscure FAQ comes out 2 months from now.
Do you guys think the "give a unit access to both abilities of current Kata" captain commander ability will give our bog standard shield captain a place in lists? Cause nobody played a normal shield captain in idk....two years? Ever?
Yeah I'm also betting on a list. Sag are 'adrastic' in their name I think so I could see them not making said list. Ever.
Ok, so back to 3d Printing the the rest of 9th? Can't pay for resin Custodes. Don't have those types of funds.
Honest opinion time: given the presupposition that what we've seen is all we are getting for changes, what are you grading this release on 1-10?
I'm gonna say 7. it's several things we wanted, several things we didn't need/want, and a bunch of steps in the right direction. For me the biggest help was fixed damage. And the sisters.
Salvus' usability highly depends on what "auric" weapons are.
its not KEYWORDED, so it looks like a new weapon type akin to Orks that got their Dakka.
I've heard that it pretty much only applies to sentinel blades, guardian spears and castellan axes which get the new "auric" type.
In which case, yeah, venetarii are off the menu again...
So just like that, without even mentioning FW, GW has nerfed some of our best options. These Multiple Small Special Rules are killing the hobby. Can we please go back to USRs?
Unstoppable destroyer is basically useless and wont see play in this new rendition. Termy captain is gonna be stuck with the +a if he's hurt trait, which is fine if its only like 5 points.
The double ka'tah buff might see play and gives us a reason to take a standard captain now.
The bike captain is almost always gonna take reroll 1's if he takes anything, but he wont really have to. He is going up to 9 wounds standard so thats a buff. I just hope he doesnt go up in points. 175 was already a bit too much considering what orks got.
Eihnlazer wrote: Unstoppable destroyer is basically useless and wont see play in this new rendition. Termy captain is gonna be stuck with the +a if he's hurt trait, which is fine if its only like 5 points.
The double ka'tah buff might see play and gives us a reason to take a standard captain now.
The bike captain is almost always gonna take reroll 1's if he takes anything, but he wont really have to. He is going up to 9 wounds standard so thats a buff. I just hope he doesnt go up in points. 175 was already a bit too much considering what orks got.
There's 3 for each Captain I think so some hope for the Allarus still. The Bike Captain will be hard pressed to not take the re-rolls though. That's a great one.
If RR of 1 is a bike captain trait...
Does that mean RR of Wounds for Standard Lances if charged is gone?
Leaker said, afaik, that it would be a +1 to wound. Which could be nice, but still, only 2D...
Thairne wrote: If RR of 1 is a bike captain trait...
Does that mean RR of Wounds for Standard Lances if charged is gone?
Leaker said, afaik, that it would be a +1 to wound. Which could be nice, but still, only 2D...
Looks like it, or otherwise it would be completely redundant for a bike captain.
Pretty rough, the weapons leaks really don't make things look promising.
Holding out hope that auric weapons ignore damage reduction.
It seems plausible, have a list at the start of the book that covers which weapons count and it plays into custodes being able to counter most things and mean they are decent against most targets.
That said I cant help but remember that hope is the first step on the road to disappointment
WisdomLS wrote: Holding out hope that auric weapons ignore damage reduction.
It seems plausible, have a list at the start of the book that covers which weapons count and it plays into custodes being able to counter most things and mean they are decent against most targets.
That said I cant help but remember that hope is the first step on the road to disappointment
I mean its not all doom and gloom.There are a few options still, but they're all on FW plattforms basically which are capable of obliterating most targets that have a -1D in itself.
Gravis will be a real challenge tho.
Well, we are going to know soon enough. Come saturday goonhammer will have a review up and most youtube warhammer channels will go through the book in detail.
If it's truly the worst case scenario and the book won't give us much to work with, we still have FW options as others have already said. And those FW choices are still very solid...I'd even argue that the FW units get a straight buff, because they won't change (well maybe some point changes) but get the added benefit of the new Katas and passive shield host buffs.
This still leaves us with the problem however that our codex should be able to function without FW.
Venerable Contemptor dread Melta is still 3-8, or d6+2. So at minimum if both shots hit and wound you still get 6-16 damage.
For 150 points, that might be our best plastic dakka platform now. Sag's aren't getting the buffs, so they are a worse replacement to the standard guardians with just spears.
Speaking of which are we anywhere on whether or not Guardian Melta spears get the +2 damage treatment?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Venerable Contemptor dread Melta is still 3-8, or d6+2. So at minimum if both shots hit and wound you still get 6-16 damage.
For 150 points, that might be our best plastic dakka platform now. Sag's aren't getting the buffs, so they are a worse replacement to the standard guardians with just spears.
Speaking of which are we anywhere on whether or not Guardian Melta spears get the +2 damage treatment?
The pyrithite spear? Yes, its d6+2 damage at half range (ie at 6"), I just looked it up on the app.
Stance 1 - Each time amodel in this unit makes an attack vs a vehicle or monster unit an unmodified hit roll of 6 automatically wounds
Stance 2 - Each time a model in this unit makes a melee attack against a vehicle or monster unit, if that models unit made a charge, was charged or performed a HI, add 1 to the strength characteristic of that attack
Eihnlazer wrote: which means even with the +4" range from the ka'tah, we cant deep strike in to half range without using our precious teleport homer strike.
The extra range is mostly gonna help us get into rapid fire easier and with the saggitarum's adrathic shots.
If nordsturmking's leaks are right, not really worth it though as Sag won't get double shoot since they're not on the auric list.
Stance 1 - Each time amodel in this unit makes an attack vs a vehicle or monster unit an unmodified hit roll of 6 automatically wounds
Stance 2 - Each time a model in this unit makes a melee attack against a vehicle or monster unit, if that models unit made a charge, was charged or performed a HI, add 1 to the strength characteristic of that attack
Eagles eye gives a 3++ for a turn
Auric aquilas no 3++
Let's see here:
Rendax seems pretty bleh. Maybe if you're stacking Misericordia Sag the auto wound could be nice. Stance 2 helps Spear units cross the divide by going S7 -> S8. Hmm, actually, it might be nicer than I thought. Jetbikes get the S8 bonus too.
Eagle Eye is eww now. Have to see what other relics are waiting for us. If we have no way to get a permanent 3++ on a HQ with a relic that's a decided slight against us considering Space Marines and subchapters have several 3++ relics. Even GK have Draigo.
That said, Trajann losing 3++ in return for a full 5+++ is probably a wash. A more math inclined person would need to run some numbers to be sure.
Jetbikes losing ObSec is a rough blow. If they count as 2 per-model it's helpful but not a huge bonus. You'll really have to kill everything around them and body block objectives. Whether Stooping Dive remains will be important here as it's a way to clear off cheap chaff that try to toe onto your objective.
Wardens getting bodyguard is nice. The question will be whether we really have any characters worth body guarding. Except for our two Sisters characters, our characters are super tough as is and/or being protected fairly naturally by Look Out, Sir. We're not like Death Guard who want to put a Foul Blightspawn or psyker way out front while having out-of-LoS Deathshroud block fire using bodyguard.
Storm Shield nerf is a morale blow but not actually that big a deal. Having a 0+ save with Shield + Flag means even AP-3 is still saving on a 3+. It's not unless you get hit with AP-4 that you'll suddenly feel the loss of the invuln or if you're getting hit with AP-3 melee weapons (i.e. power/force swords).
Shield Guardians - No +1 to invuln
Bikes - No Obsec and a double points nerf
Trajaan - no regain wounds, a 5++ save?
And pretty much all our FW infantry doesn't get Auric weapons. Or Obsec I'm betting.
Well, at least the Wardens got a Bodyguard rule. Now they are only slightly useless.
It seems to be a realy unfun codex at this moment. Nothing new, very boring D2 weapons, no real stayingpower compared to the DMG and/or amount of attacks other armies have, nerfed traits for commanders, nerfed shields, nerfed bikes... While others feared the powercreep right now it feels like we will get a realy sh...y codex. :(
Rendax seems pretty bleh. Maybe if you're stacking Misericordia Sag the auto wound could be nice. Stance 2 helps Spear units cross the divide by going S7 -> S8. Hmm, actually, it might be nicer than I thought. Jetbikes get the S8 bonus too.
Eagle Eye is eww now. Have to see what other relics are waiting for us. If we have no way to get a permanent 3++ on a HQ with a relic that's a decided slight against us considering Space Marines and subchapters have several 3++ relics. Even GK have Draigo.
That said, Trajann losing 3++ in return for a full 5+++ is probably a wash. A more math inclined person would need to run some numbers to be sure.
Jetbikes losing ObSec is a rough blow. If they count as 2 per-model it's helpful but not a huge bonus. You'll really have to kill everything around them and body block objectives. Whether Stooping Dive remains will be important here as it's a way to clear off cheap chaff that try to toe onto your objective.
Wardens getting bodyguard is nice. The question will be whether we really have any characters worth body guarding. Except for our two Sisters characters, our characters are super tough as is and/or being protected fairly naturally by Look Out, Sir. We're not like Death Guard who want to put a Foul Blightspawn or psyker way out front while having out-of-LoS Deathshroud block fire using bodyguard.
Storm Shield nerf is a morale blow but not actually that big a deal. Having a 0+ save with Shield + Flag means even AP-3 is still saving on a 3+. It's not unless you get hit with AP-4 that you'll suddenly feel the loss of the invuln or if you're getting hit with AP-3 melee weapons (i.e. power/force swords).
A 3++ is mathematically the same as 4++/5+++, but the latter is better as you get a save against mortals. So it is a buff.
Shield Guardians - No +1 to invuln
Bikes - No Obsec and a double points nerf
Trajaan - no regain wounds, a 5++ save?
And pretty much all our FW infantry doesn't get Auric weapons. Or Obsec I'm betting.
Well, at least the Wardens got a Bodyguard rule. Now they are only slightly useless.
Igoring incoming dmg is better that healing d3 wounds. And i think i have ony once used the healing. Trajann still has a 4++ and see above. bikes losing obsec hurts i agree. losing the 3++ on shield is a nerf but remember we are getting traits and stances.
Jesus, hoping those rumors aren't true but suspecting they are :-(
I really hope there is something we're not seeing but at the moment it looks like they are taking away our toughness whist not increasing our damage. In the 9th edition land of hyper lethality that's a really bad sign.
We could be saved by a really good set of strats but earlier rumors points to them being toned down in a similar vein to blood angels were.
I've heard rumours about lances having a different profile on the charge (with 3D)
I've heard rumours of the bike captain commander trait making wounds spill over like MWs do
I've heard rumours about a relic that shuts off all saves (including invulns)
I've heard rumours about a strat that shuts down all post-save shenanigans like damage reduction, fnp etc.
Now if you have a dawneagle captain that has 8 attacks which ignores all saves, do 3D which spill over... you can wipe out entire full size squads of infantry or any non-t8 vehicle he touches.
It's concerning that codex preorder is in 2 days and what we're actually getting is still largely a mystery. I wonder if GW thinks we'll be too disappointed and it will impact sales.
Mad_Proctologist wrote: It's concerning that codex preorder is in 2 days and what we're actually getting is still largely a mystery. I wonder if GW thinks we'll be too disappointed and it will impact sales.
Kind of beggars belief that they would write an underwhelming codex and then stifle rumours to prevent disappointment, instead of, like, just writing a good codex. I wouldn't give them that much credit though tbf, if it's underwhelming they're probably oblivious to it.
Yeah, it's kinda a given they know the leaks will hurt sales. But not for disappointment. Because leakers will post it to free content sites, that will hurt their bottom line. But what scares me is they are not even TRYING to hype this release. Compare this to the upcoming Eldar release. They aren't for another few months and they already have more info on their new stuff than we do. Their new Wraithknight looks mean as hell too.
Nope, aside from narrative games and maybe some modeling, I'm likely gonna give 9th a pass now. My main faction is not looking like any fun to me, and the edition will be over in a year anyway.
Would a Vexhilla in Termy plate with an Oblit be worth it as a tank hunter?
Also, the new Psych-out grenade is auto-death to psykers? Am I reading that right? Like it can kill morty? EDIT: Not Morty but a 50 point squad can now basically delete psykers. That is ugly. But not worth the CP.
I got excited by the Open the Vaults stratagem for a split-second as I thought there's no way they'd include the standard 'take an extra relic' stratagem (which every army in 9th has been given, I think) in a preview, and it must be a '1 model gets 2 relics' strat. I was wrong
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Would a Vexhilla in Termy plate with an Oblit be worth it as a tank hunter?
Also, the new Psych-out grenade is auto-death to psykers? Am I reading that right? Like it can kill morty? EDIT: Not Morty but a 50 point squad can now basically delete psykers. That is ugly. But not worth the CP.
You are right. I thought it was D6, I am just reviewing the rule now. I honestly haven't seen it come of in all of 9th, because I never cast spells, and none of my opponents ever really fail that way.
I wonder if this will be the standard now across the game? There is an assassin with these right? The Culexus? It's a base weapon for him. As it was for us. I don't like weapons turning into Stratagems.
Confirmed by sight of the relevant page of the codex? No, but currently believed to be gone and replaced with a integral 4++ and a 6+++ vs ALL mortal wounds
Mad_Proctologist wrote: It's concerning that codex preorder is in 2 days and what we're actually getting is still largely a mystery. I wonder if GW thinks we'll be too disappointed and it will impact sales.
It's not a mystery.
Our defenses got nerfed, very little has changed, all our stats are the same except for shield captains.
Mad_Proctologist wrote: It's concerning that codex preorder is in 2 days and what we're actually getting is still largely a mystery. I wonder if GW thinks we'll be too disappointed and it will impact sales.
It's not a mystery.
Our defenses got nerfed, very little has changed, all our stats are the same except for shield captains.
Jetbikes got +1W and spear units (including Jetbikes I believe) got +1S over current incarnations. So it's not all the same, exactly. Seriously, Jetbikes are looking to be S7 T6 5W 4A with a 2+/4++/4+++(to MW in the right Shield Host) for 85/90 points at the moment. Even without ObSec, there's play here.
I do think they're swinging a bit too hard at our defense, but we'll see. I need secondaries and to a lesser extent more stratagems.
Mad_Proctologist wrote: It's concerning that codex preorder is in 2 days and what we're actually getting is still largely a mystery. I wonder if GW thinks we'll be too disappointed and it will impact sales.
It's not a mystery.
Our defenses got nerfed, very little has changed, all our stats are the same except for shield captains.
Jetbikes got +1W and spear units (including Jetbikes I believe) got +1S over current incarnations. So it's not all the same, exactly. Seriously, Jetbikes are looking to be S7 T6 5W 4A with a 2+/4++/4+++(to MW in the right Shield Host) for 85/90 points at the moment. Even without ObSec, there's play here.
I do think they're swinging a bit too hard at our defense, but we'll see. I need secondaries and to a lesser extent more stratagems.
1. S7 is functionally worth the same as S6. It can damage Rhino's on a 3+ now. Whoopie.
2. Bikes points cost is silly bad. It's still radically overpriced at 80. With no Obsec, and a 2+5++6+++ it's still just either an extremely fragile tank hunter (Which it still sucks at), or a extremely fragile horde clearer(Which it's good at, but if you are wasting a 300 point squad on clearing a bunch of units of 6-9point models, have you really accomplished your worth?
Obsec is the only thing that made them borderline decent. Now they are basically just Distraction Carnifexes.
Mad_Proctologist wrote: It's concerning that codex preorder is in 2 days and what we're actually getting is still largely a mystery. I wonder if GW thinks we'll be too disappointed and it will impact sales.
It's not a mystery.
Our defenses got nerfed, very little has changed, all our stats are the same except for shield captains.
Jetbikes got +1W and spear units (including Jetbikes I believe) got +1S over current incarnations. So it's not all the same, exactly. Seriously, Jetbikes are looking to be S7 T6 5W 4A with a 2+/4++/4+++(to MW in the right Shield Host) for 85/90 points at the moment. Even without ObSec, there's play here.
I do think they're swinging a bit too hard at our defense, but we'll see. I need secondaries and to a lesser extent more stratagems.
1. S7 is functionally worth the same as S6. It can damage Rhino's on a 3+ now. Whoopie.
2. Bikes points cost is silly bad. It's still radically overpriced at 80. With no Obsec, and a 2+5++6+++ it's still just either an extremely fragile tank hunter (Which it still sucks at), or a extremely fragile horde clearer(Which it's good at, but if you are wasting a 300 point squad on clearing a bunch of units of 6-9point models, have you really accomplished your worth?
Obsec is the only thing that made them borderline decent. Now they are basically just Distraction Carnifexes.
Well hang on a second here.
1. It's S7 with +1 to wound. That lets them wound Raiders/Rhinos/e.t.c. on 2's. That's pretty nice.
2. They're 2+/4++ and 4+++ (assuming you take that Shield Host, but it does look like one of the best ones so far) not 2+/5++/6+++. That's a pretty big difference.
Don't forget multiple secondaries were changes to let Bikes perform them too.
The codex is not out yet and you now how it is going to perform?
Ofc I do not. And a provocative question like that really isn't necessary.
I base my oppinion on facts, known rules and previews. And on this known things, the codex looks like a sidegrade at best in an edition were powercreep is insane.
So optimism is does not seem to be recommendable, especially when the most exciting things they show us is Open the vaults, Transhumans and a 6" psyc out grenade that does D3 MW.
So do you know the codex and know that it works out better? No? Then your oppinion is just as valid as mine and you have neither cause nor grounds to shoot it down.
My god the toxicity of this forum....smh...only seeing glimpses of the codex and declaring it awful is ridiculous. Lets wait and see what the secondaries, ALL of the relics, WL traits, stratagems are before we declare the codex is a complete dud. From what I have seen I think there is a lot to look forward to. New ways to look at list building, setting up the katahs to work with your army or your opponents army.
What I am seeing is a lot of complaining that the codex doesn't look broken enough to their liking. I will get off my soap box now.
I have my opinion, you have yours.
Noone insulted your opinion, yet you come about and call the others toxic.
Yet who is toxic here? In my experience, those that use the term are the true culprits.
Its also what they DON'T show us that makes people pessimistic.
If the best thing they can show us to generate hype for a presale is Open the Vaults - thats raising a few eyebrows. You can wait for the full codex, that is on you. But condemning speculation on a forum is questionable.
We are pretty sure the 3++ is gone, which is a huge nerf to the ONE thing that kept the army afloat. And we, so far, have not seen many things that could compensate such a big loss. That is in no way "the codex is not broken enough" as you see it. Things got taken away, not enough things were given back. It is a fear for going under in this power creep meta.
Leave other peoples opinion alone or argue against it, but using words like 'toxic' is just a deadbeat argument that has no place... anywhere. It's just as overused as "racist" and lost its original meaning.
If you see those things that you look forward to, tell us about them. Bring arguments like the buff to wounds and S for bikes e.g. and argue from there.
Mad_Proctologist wrote: It's concerning that codex preorder is in 2 days and what we're actually getting is still largely a mystery. I wonder if GW thinks we'll be too disappointed and it will impact sales.
It's not a mystery.
Our defenses got nerfed, very little has changed, all our stats are the same except for shield captains.
Jetbikes got +1W and spear units (including Jetbikes I believe) got +1S over current incarnations. So it's not all the same, exactly. Seriously, Jetbikes are looking to be S7 T6 5W 4A with a 2+/4++/4+++(to MW in the right Shield Host) for 85/90 points at the moment. Even without ObSec, there's play here.
I do think they're swinging a bit too hard at our defense, but we'll see. I need secondaries and to a lesser extent more stratagems.
1. S7 is functionally worth the same as S6. It can damage Rhino's on a 3+ now. Whoopie.
2. Bikes points cost is silly bad. It's still radically overpriced at 80. With no Obsec, and a 2+5++6+++ it's still just either an extremely fragile tank hunter (Which it still sucks at), or a extremely fragile horde clearer(Which it's good at, but if you are wasting a 300 point squad on clearing a bunch of units of 6-9point models, have you really accomplished your worth?
Obsec is the only thing that made them borderline decent. Now they are basically just Distraction Carnifexes.
Well hang on a second here.
1. It's S7 with +1 to wound. That lets them wound Raiders/Rhinos/e.t.c. on 2's. That's pretty nice.
2. They're 2+/4++ and 4+++ (assuming you take that Shield Host, but it does look like one of the best ones so far) not 2+/5++/6+++. That's a pretty big difference.
Don't forget multiple secondaries were changes to let Bikes perform them too.
Are you talking about the charge ability on +1 to wound? Because that is gone I thought. Or are you talking about the Plus 1 to wound Strat, because that's only for spears. I am saying S7 Lances are worthless compared to S6 lances. It makes zero functional difference unless you are using bike squads to hunt S7 Tagets, like Dreads and light vehicles. Which again, is silly.
Nope, I would rather just go back to modeling. The biggest way this codex has hurt me is it's radically decreased the value of all my still in plastic/box models.
From a french guy how seems to have the codex, translatet with google:
shadow keepers
=> trait 1, while an enemy unit is within Engagement Range of a unit with this trait, subtract 1 from the attack characteristics of each model in the enemy unit
trait 2 => each time a model of a unit with trait makes an attack against a Character unit, you can re-roll the wound roll
Martial Ka'tah: Kaptaris
Srata => 1 CP)> use this stratagem at any phase, when a Shadowkeeper unit from your army (except vehicle units) is chosen as the target of an attack, until the end of the phase, with each attack against the chosen unit, subtract 1 from the attack's Strength characteristic
warlord trait => sealed watchman, with each attack of this warlord allocated to a character unit, you cannot make an invulnerable saving throw against the attack
Essentially seems that -1 attacks and reroll wounds vs characters for the trait.
shadow keepers (original french):
Spoiler:
gardiens des ombres => trait 1, tant qu'une unité ennemie est à Portés d'engagement d'une unité ayant ce trait, soustrayez 1 à la caractéristiques d'attaques de chaque figurine de l'unité ennemie
trait 2 => chaque fois qu'une figurine d'une unité ayant de trait effectue une attaque contre une unité Personnage, vous pouvez relancer le jet de blessure
Ka'tah martial : Kaptaris
Srata => 1 CP )> utilisez ce stratagème à n'importe qu'elle phase, quand une unité gardiens des ombres de votre armée (hormis les unités véhicule) est choisie comme cible d'une attaque, jusqu'à la fin de la phase, à chaque attaque contre l'unité choisie, soutrayez 1 à la caractéristique de Force de l'attaque
trait de seigneur de guerre => veilleur scellés, a chaque attaque de ce seigneur de guerre allouée à une unité personnage, on ne peut pas effectuer de jet de sauvegarde invulnérable contre l'attaque
.
Martial Ka’tahs:
Note your whole army must be same shield host. This is an ability on datasheets for most units:
Spoiler:
If your whole army is ADEPTUS CUSTODES (excluding ANATHEMA PSYKANA, AGENTS OF THE IMPERIUM, and UNALIGNED) and if all units that can be given a shield host keyword are given the same shield host, you can use these rules and abilities. After deploying both armies but before determining the first turn, you must choose a primary, secondary, and tertiary ka’tah. Write them down in secret on your army list. In each of your command phases, as long as a ka’tah stance is available, you can pick one to be active for your army. Each time this happens, units from your army with this ability benefit from it until the start of your next command phase.
When picking an active stance, the following rules apply: You can not pick any stance more than once, you must choose a stance from your primary ka‘tah first, and can not choose a stance from your tertiary ka’tah until you have chose at least one from your secondary ka’tah. When you choose a stance from a different martial ka’tah, you can not chose a stance from a preceding ka’tah.
Here is the example in the book: Elle has an army that qualifies, she choses Rendex as primary, Dacatarai as secondary, and Calistus as tertiary. First round she chooses stance 2 of Rendax. Round 2 she can choose stance 1 of Rendax or stance 1 or 2 of Dacatari. She can't choose Calistus yet since she hasn’t chosen any stances from her secondary ka’tah, Dacatarai. She choses stance 1 of Dcatari, her secondary ka’tah. In her third command phase she can choose stance 2 of dacatarai or either stance 1 or 2 of Calistus, since she has already chosen one from her secondary. She can’t chose any from Rendax anymore since you can never choose a preceding stance (no going back). She chooses stance 2 of Calistus, her tertiary ka’tah. In her turn 4, she must chose stance 1 of Calistsus since that’s all that's left. This means she won't have any ka’tahs active on turn 5.
Calistus 1: roll an extra d6 when advancing and choose the result
Calistus 2: when making a normal move or advance you can shoot in the following shooting phase as if you remained stationary
Conservai 1: this unit can perform an action in a turn in which they advanced or fell back (WOW!)
Conservai 2: each time this unit performs an action, they can shoot without the action failing
Dacatarai 1: every time an enemy unit piles in or consolidates, if they are within engagement range of this unit, subtract 2” from the distance they can move for that pile in or consolidate.
Dacatarai 2: each time this unit fights it can choose to add 1 to their attacks characteristic but reduce the damage characteristic of all melee weapons by 1.
Salvus 1: add 4:to the range of all shooting weapons this unit has
Salvus 2: If they are INFANTRY and didn’t advance and don’t have enemy units in engagement range, they can shoot 2 times with auric weapons during this phase.
Rendax 1: hits of 6 in melee auto-wound VEHICLES and MONSTERS
Rendax 2: when attacking a VEHICLE or MONSTER, if this unit charged or heroic intervened this turn, add 1 to the Strength characteristic of the attack (so effectively melee only)
Kaptaris 1: enemies cannot re-roll hits in melee against this unit
Kaptaris 2: Every time an enemy unit (excluding VEHICLES and MONSTERS) in engagement range of one or more INFANTRY units with this ability attempts to fall back, roll a dice with your opponent. Add 1 to their roll if their unit can fly. If you roll higher than their roll, the enemy unit cannot fall back.
From what we've seen the relics and WL traits seem a bit lackluster, but I haven't seen many WL traits. Once we see the shield host traits and stratagems, plus the chapter approved faction-specific secondaries, we will have a good idea how to book will be. Also apparently Trajaan is a beast and gets 2 WL traits.
Pictures of two pages of strats from the french codex. French leaker says thats 2 of 4 pages. (I think there are no more strats, except the shield hosts specific
there are 31 stratagems)
1CP: CUSTODIAN GUARD with shields, when targeted in combat, gain -1 to be hit. Only in melee combat.
1CP: At start of first round, choose an enemy unit, until end of battle VIGILATORS re-roll hits against them.
1CP: Use in fight phase when any custodes unit is selected to fight, if under starting strength, +1A to each model, if under half starting number of models, then each model gets +2A instead. (Note: this means fewer attacks than before but can now be used every phase to medium effect instead of just in the turn you lost a bunch of models)
1/2CP: when any custodes unit selected to fight in combat, +1 to wound vs enemy unit with higher toughness than the custodes unit. 2CP if more than 3 models in the custodes unit.
1CP: in any phase after shooting or fighting with any custodes unit, pick an ANATHEMA PSYKANA unit within 6” and that sisters unit gets +1 to hit for the phase. Note: does not say that the sisters unit needs to target the same unit as the custodes unit.
1CP: when witchseekers are selected to shoot or fire overwatch, for that phase, +1 Str to their flamers for that attack
2CP: fight on death for any custodes character, if they haven’t already fought. Can be used on named characters.
1CP: ADEPTUS CUSTODES DREADNOUGHT (Note: can be the forgeworld ones) in command phase chooses to give 6” aura of either re-roll hits or wounds of 1. Only effects CORE SHIELD-HOST units.
1CP: In command phase, choose a custodes machine spirit unit to act on top profile.
1CP: In any phase when custodes or anathema psykana vehicle would take a mortal wound, gain 5+++ against mortals for that phase.
1CP: When a non-named custodes character kills an enemy character in melee combat, pick one of the two to happen: a) pick a shield host trait that the character doesnt have and they gain it for the rest of the battle, or b) pick one stance of a martial ka’tah, the character always benefits from that stance. Can only use this start once per custodes character per game, and cant use in crusade unless you pay some requisition. Note: this was slightly hard to translate so possible I missed something in parts a or b. But the selection criteria are clear.
1CP: Extra relics strat, one per character per CP, max 2 extra
1CP: Extra WL traits strat, one per character per CP, max 2 extra
1CP: Give a second WL trait to a character. Note: does not have to be your actual warlord from what I understand.
1CP: Eternal penitent! Use before the battle, pick a custodes DREADNOUGHT (yes can be FW dreads) they gain +1A and re-roll charges. If they already re-roll charges (like from a ka-tah, etc.) then instead add +1 to their charge distance. CAN ONLY USE ONCE PER GAME. Note: not once per game per dread, straight up once per game per army. :(
1CP: Heroic intervention with any unit, if they already could heroic, they intervene 6” instead.
1/2CP: use in command phase when you pick a stance for a ka’tah. Pick any custodes unit and give them a different stance. That custodes unit benefits only from that new stance you picked, not the same stance as the rest of your army. They don’t get both. Lasts until next command phase. If the custodes unit contains 4 or more models it costs 2CP.
1CP: Interrupt in combat if a custodes unit is in range of an objective. Same as before.
1/2CP: Unleash the lions, in command phase, same as before, but 2CP if 4 or more allarus in the unit at the time of using.
1CP: When your warlord dies, pick another custodes character to be your warlord, give them the WL trait that the dead warlord had if they don’t already have one. The new warlord is considered warlord for all rules purposes and it doesnt count as your warlord dying until this new one is slain. Note: there is no clause saying you can only use this once per game.
1CP any custodes unit that can FLY can shoot after falling back (but not charge)
1CP in psychic phase when enemy suffers perils within 18” of ANATHEMA PSYKANA INFANTRY. They take an extra d3 mortal wounds.
1/2CP: in any phase when any custodes unit is targeted, the enemy cannot re roll number of shots, hits, or wounds. 1CP if 4 or fewer models, 2CP if custodes unit has 5 or more models.
1CP: before the battle when declaring reserves, an INFANTRY, BIKER, or DREADNOUGHT can deepstrike.
1CP: 18” range 4+ to stop effects of an enemy psychic power, used by any ANATHEMA PSYKANA INFANTRY unit, used after any other deny the witch attempts.
1CP start of any phase use on one ANATHEMA PSYKANA INFANTRY unit, they gain a 6” aura of enemy units are -1 to hit when targeting this sisters unit.
1CP use in opponents movement phase when an enemy unit wants to fall back from combat with a custodes INFANTRY unit. The custodes infantry unit can shoot at the enemy unit as if it were the shooting phase.
1CP: smokescreen standard -1 to hit
1CP: TANGLEFOOT! Use at start of enemy’s movement or charge phase. Cant use on units that FLY. Must be visible within 12”. Otherwise same as before, subtract d6” from movement or charge distance. Can only use once per turn. Note: like many of our core strats from before, still strong, but toned down.
1CP: Use when TELEPORT HOMER ADEPTUS CUSTODES is chosen to move. Remove them form the battlefield, then during the reinforcements step of the SAME movement phase, replace the unit on the battlefield within 3” of a VEXILUS PRAETOR or ALEYA, but more than 9” from enemy units.
1CP: 6” grenade from ANATHEMA PSYKANA INFANTRY that causes perils if hits a psyker.
Sisters can not be affected by psychic powers, enemies within 18” are -1 to cast powers per sister unit to a max of -3 to cast, and sisters gain +1 To hit against PSYKER or DAEMON units.
The codex is not out yet and you now how it is going to perform?
Ofc I do not. And a provocative question like that really isn't necessary.
I base my oppinion on facts, known rules and previews. And on this known things, the codex looks like a sidegrade at best in an edition were powercreep is insane.
So optimism is does not seem to be recommendable, especially when the most exciting things they show us is Open the vaults, Transhumans and a 6" psyc out grenade that does D3 MW.
So do you know the codex and know that it works out better? No? Then your oppinion is just as valid as mine and you have neither cause nor grounds to shoot it down.
Hm yes i should have worded that differently but all these "the sky is falling the codex will be bad" posts really annoyed me XD
That seems quite good actually, the strats are nice. We retain some good old stuff like eternal penitent (though only once hurts) and tanglefoot. Still being able to turn off rerolls is also clutch.
Being able to switch stances for 1cp on a unit seems to be something we might use often.
Losing teleport homer really hurts though....and giving our guys with shields a strat to make them - 1 to hit is downright insulting....thats SUCH a useless debuff, I hate it.
The third captain commander trait for allarus seems decent though...+1 to wound against vehicles and monsters is always useful, against characters its mostly an unnecessary bonus. Definitely the best option.
Tiberias wrote: That seems quite good actually, the strats are nice. We retain some good old stuff like eternal penitent (though only once hurts) and tanglefoot. Still being able to turn off rerolls is also clutch.
Being able to switch stances for 1cp on a unit seems to be something we might use often.
Losing teleport homer really hurts though....and giving our guys with shields a strat to make them - 1 to hit is downright insulting....thats SUCH a useless debuff, I hate it.
The third captain commander trait for allarus seems decent though...+1 to wound against vehicles and monsters is always useful, against characters its mostly an unnecessary bonus. Definitely the best option.
Spear Allarus likes wounding T6 and less characters on 2's I'd think.
I like the -1 strat.
I feel nothing with the loss of Teleport Homer. That strat signaled what you were doing to your opponent so hard as to be virtually worthless in my opinion.
Remember, we need the whole picture and games in. Goonhammer had GK book and declared them worst 9th Ed army.
Martial Ka’tahs:
Note your whole army must be same shield host. This is an ability on datasheets for most units:
Spoiler:
If your whole army is ADEPTUS CUSTODES (excluding ANATHEMA PSYKANA, AGENTS OF THE IMPERIUM, and UNALIGNED) and if all units that can be given a shield host keyword are given the same shield host, you can use these rules and abilities. After deploying both armies but before determining the first turn, you must choose a primary, secondary, and tertiary ka’tah. Write them down in secret on your army list. In each of your command phases, as long as a ka’tah stance is available, you can pick one to be active for your army. Each time this happens, units from your army with this ability benefit from it until the start of your next command phase.
When picking an active stance, the following rules apply: You can not pick any stance more than once, you must choose a stance from your primary ka‘tah first, and can not choose a stance from your tertiary ka’tah until you have chose at least one from your secondary ka’tah. When you choose a stance from a different martial ka’tah, you can not chose a stance from a preceding ka’tah.
Here is the example in the book: Elle has an army that qualifies, she choses Rendex as primary, Dacatarai as secondary, and Calistus as tertiary. First round she chooses stance 2 of Rendax. Round 2 she can choose stance 1 of Rendax or stance 1 or 2 of Dacatari. She can't choose Calistus yet since she hasn’t chosen any stances from her secondary ka’tah, Dacatarai. She choses stance 1 of Dcatari, her secondary ka’tah. In her third command phase she can choose stance 2 of dacatarai or either stance 1 or 2 of Calistus, since she has already chosen one from her secondary. She can’t chose any from Rendax anymore since you can never choose a preceding stance (no going back). She chooses stance 2 of Calistus, her tertiary ka’tah. In her turn 4, she must chose stance 1 of Calistsus since that’s all that's left. This means she won't have any ka’tahs active on turn 5.
Calistus 1: roll an extra d6 when advancing and choose the result
Calistus 2: when making a normal move or advance you can shoot in the following shooting phase as if you remained stationary
Conservai 1: this unit can perform an action in a turn in which they advanced or fell back (WOW!)
Conservai 2: each time this unit performs an action, they can shoot without the action failing
Dacatarai 1: every time an enemy unit piles in or consolidates, if they are within engagement range of this unit, subtract 2” from the distance they can move for that pile in or consolidate.
Dacatarai 2: each time this unit fights it can choose to add 1 to their attacks characteristic but reduce the damage characteristic of all melee weapons by 1.
Salvus 1: add 4:to the range of all shooting weapons this unit has
Salvus 2: If they are INFANTRY and didn’t advance and don’t have enemy units in engagement range, they can shoot 2 times with auric weapons during this phase.
Rendax 1: hits of 6 in melee auto-wound VEHICLES and MONSTERS
Rendax 2: when attacking a VEHICLE or MONSTER, if this unit charged or heroic intervened this turn, add 1 to the Strength characteristic of the attack (so effectively melee only)
Kaptaris 1: enemies cannot re-roll hits in melee against this unit
Kaptaris 2: Every time an enemy unit (excluding VEHICLES and MONSTERS) in engagement range of one or more INFANTRY units with this ability attempts to fall back, roll a dice with your opponent. Add 1 to their roll if their unit can fly. If you roll higher than their roll, the enemy unit cannot fall back.
"From what we've seen the relics and WL traits seem a bit lackluster, but I haven't seen many WL traits. Once we see the shield host traits and stratagems, plus the chapter approved faction-specific secondaries, we will have a good idea how to book will be. Also apparently Trajaan is a beast and gets 2 WL traits."
Thairne wrote: I have my opinion, you have yours.
Noone insulted your opinion, yet you come about and call the others toxic.
Yet who is toxic here? In my experience, those that use the term are the true culprits.
Its also what they DON'T show us that makes people pessimistic.
If the best thing they can show us to generate hype for a presale is Open the Vaults - thats raising a few eyebrows. You can wait for the full codex, that is on you. But condemning speculation on a forum is questionable.
We are pretty sure the 3++ is gone, which is a huge nerf to the ONE thing that kept the army afloat. And we, so far, have not seen many things that could compensate such a big loss. That is in no way "the codex is not broken enough" as you see it. Things got taken away, not enough things were given back. It is a fear for going under in this power creep meta.
Leave other peoples opinion alone or argue against it, but using words like 'toxic' is just a deadbeat argument that has no place... anywhere. It's just as overused as "racist" and lost its original meaning.
If you see those things that you look forward to, tell us about them. Bring arguments like the buff to wounds and S for bikes e.g. and argue from there.
Dakka's a cesspool of salt and fascists.
But there's no better warhammer place on the internet to be salty. Wish it would do something about the fash posters.
so, if im reading that right, a custodes/sisters mixed list:
cannot have more persecutors than custodes guard (or sag guard), but those persecutors have Obsec. ALL custodes have obsec
cannot have more sisters characters than custodes
cannot have a sister as the warlord (so only way to give them WLT would be in either a pure sisters detachment or via strats)
max of one of each shield cap datasheet per detachment.
our custodes infantry AND bikes are double counted for the purposes of look out, sir (ie a squad of 2 can provide cover), and all custodes are double counted for the purposes of objective control (which is explicitly additive with other rules that increase the "count"....impling we have a strat, relic or WLT that lets us up the count?)
We got GreyKnighted. And it hurts. I really thought we might get SOMETHING, anything. This is all terrible. It's made the faction complicated, even MORE costly, and weaker somehow. Hopefully our FW units will remain unscathed, other wise we are C+ tier at best.
you mean "moved form a competitive non-entity to A tier"? the ones with currently with the 2nd highest win rate in GT games?
if that is the case i would sure hope we have been knighted.
anyway, we all half expected the limits on persecutors (and lets be clear, the limit is purely for bolter sisters in the Troops slot, not for flamer sisters in fast attack or bladegirls in eltites). I didnt forsee the limits on sheild caps, though. between that and the sisters HQ limit we have quite strict rules on what HQs we can take.
the extra abilites in the obsec and look out sir seem nice enough. I can only assume the 4++/6+++ is baked into the datasheets rather than being a army ability, unless thier is another page of detachment abilies they havent shown us (which i think is likely, given that we've seen datasheets referring to abilities not on these pages)
going to call it now, we can take bikes in squads of either 1 or 2, same as with the allarus, IE you can build a sheild cap and a valid squad form the same box, not either/or.
Called it on the Sisters troop restriction. Our guys counting double for obsec and look out sir is really nice actually.
Edit: new community article lists "heavy power weapons" for abberants with a S+3 Ap2 Dmg3 profile. So you are telling me some mutated miners with a pickaxe get a better profile than our allarus terminators with relic power axes that are supposedly all mastercrafted works of art....makes sense. Seriously, this is some bs.
Tiberias wrote: Called it on the Sisters troop restriction. Our guys counting double for obsec and look out sir is really nice actually.
Edit: new community article lists "heavy power weapons" for abberants with a S+3 Ap2 Dmg3 profile. So you are telling me some mutated miners with a pickaxe get a better profile than our allarus terminators with relic power axes that are supposedly all mastercrafted works of art....makes sense. Seriously, this is some bs.
I guess as long as its in the shape of a hammer, you get flat 3D access. If it's bladed and not a relic or on a character of some sort, tough luck. I feel like someone on the design team lost as marines to Custodes and has a bone to grind with them now.
Wow. Them super-elite guards of the frikkin Emperor really should just trade in their gak for a frikkin mining tool it seems.
I'm really hoping that we are missing something, that there is some weird little bit of the codex that just hasn't been previewed and when we see it we are all like:
"Wait wait wait, ALL wounds that Custodes cause are MORTAL wounds?!! That's crazy!"
I don't understand any of what GW is doing. I am beggining to think like a Conspiracy Theorist. I don't think GW cares about balance. Like at all. Balance doesn't drive profits, or help attendence at their big events. I feel like what they want is for each new faction to have a big flashy thing, and I still have not heard of any theory crafters talk about how out BC or "stances" will be of any good. I mean, yeah, we are doing better against hordes now? And we are better against elites and Characters. But that's like saying we were S tier before, and now we are S+. It's not like it helps us.
Can anyone come up with a reasonable way to use the stances we've been shown? Or even formulate a PL army off this dross?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I don't understand any of what GW is doing. I am beggining to think like a Conspiracy Theorist. I don't think GW cares about balance. Like at all. Balance doesn't drive profits, or help attendence at their big events. I feel like what they want is for each new faction to have a big flashy thing, and I still have not heard of any theory crafters talk about how out BC or "stances" will be of any good. I mean, yeah, we are doing better against hordes now? And we are better against elites and Characters. But that's like saying we were S tier before, and now we are S+. It's not like it helps us.
Can anyone come up with a reasonable way to use the stances we've been shown? Or even formulate a PL army off this dross?
I don't formulate PL anything, sorry.
Without knowing faction secondaries making a list is hard. Your list should be tied to what you're planning to score. So until I can lock down what we'd want to be scoring I can't really make an optimized list.
Well, tabling is out for strategies. So is Shield guardians camping out on objectives. Telemons are no longer likely to be viable, if the rumors are true. It all stands on if we lose our 4++.
If we go max SoS, that's 30 Flamer Sisters, 30 sword Sisters, and 30-50 Bolter sisters, and 3 Sisters Superior. Is that viable? Thow in the Vex to give them a 5++?
Tiberias wrote: Called it on the Sisters troop restriction. Our guys counting double for obsec and look out sir is really nice actually.
Edit: new community article lists "heavy power weapons" for abberants with a S+3 Ap2 Dmg3 profile. So you are telling me some mutated miners with a pickaxe get a better profile than our allarus terminators with relic power axes that are supposedly all mastercrafted works of art....makes sense. Seriously, this is some bs.
I guess as long as its in the shape of a hammer, you get flat 3D access. If it's bladed and not a relic or on a character of some sort, tough luck. I feel like someone on the design team lost as marines to Custodes and has a bone to grind with them now.
Well fair enough, still stupid but ok if GWs design philosophy about weapons is like that. But then our castellan axe should at LEAST have Ap3....but wait, why should anyone take spears then? Our weapon profiles are such a fething mess.
Is it that hard to make sensible multiple profiles for out 3 weapon options? I could have done that easily and I'm not a game designer.
Sorry for my ranting but our new weapon profiles vex me way more than they should...especially in comparison to such crap like those super master crafted mining tools. fething GW
but guys.
We need to see the entire codex!!!
Crap weapons and crap stratagems dont show the full picture!
There can still be relics and WLTs that save us!
It will ALL be fine!
Thairne wrote: but guys.
We need to see the entire codex!!!
Crap weapons and crap stratagems dont show the full picture!
There can still be relics and WLTs that save us!
It will ALL be fine!
/s
I don't think our strats are crap at all. Stooping Dive's loss makes me sad, but we have Tanglefoot, Transhuman, no re-rolls, Slayer of Nightmares, Bikes consolidate an extra 3", second interrupt, Bikes fall back and shoot, Shoulder the Mantle, any unit heroically intervene, auto-deny within 18", there's good stuff here. A lot we already had, but we were strong to begin with.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Well, tabling is out for strategies. So is Shield guardians camping out on objectives. Telemons are no longer likely to be viable, if the rumors are true. It all stands on if we lose our 4++.
If we go max SoS, that's 30 Flamer Sisters, 30 sword Sisters, and 30-50 Bolter sisters, and 3 Sisters Superior. Is that viable? Thow in the Vex to give them a 5++?
You should almost never have tabling as your strat for any faction so that's not really a loss. The goal is, generally, to design a list and secondary selection where you will score at least 65 points per game with as little interaction with your opponent as possible.
Thairne wrote: but guys.
We need to see the entire codex!!!
Crap weapons and crap stratagems dont show the full picture!
There can still be relics and WLTs that save us!
It will ALL be fine!
/s
I still remain that the codex can be workable. The secondaries especially are still important information. Relics and warlord traits, while not super clutch, are still also important information. The strats actually seem fine so far. Double obsec and double look out sir is really nice actually.
Our weapon profiles are inexcusable in light of current information though. Trajann should just go to the nearest hardware store and buy some pickaxes for is "elite" terminators.
If I eat my words and "auric weapons" get some stupid extra buff that does mortal wounds or some bs, fine you can tell me I should have kept my mouth shut, but I doubt it.
Well the strats in itself arent THAT bad.
What hurts is whats missing/changed.
Firstly, venetari will disappear like before. Doubletapping is what saved them and that is downright gone now.
Allarus will only have 2D weapons and no double tap sniping either. Auramite and Adamantium is gone, so they're far more vulnerable.So they took a hit as well, just as Aquilons by proxy did.
Shield guard lost their 3++. I dont need to explain that this is bad.
The entire army struggles to deal with anything that is -1D since its LOADED with 2D and no way to get past that.
Stooping dive, especially when powered by Trajan, is gone. That means bikes lose a big chunk of utility and offensive power.
All dreadnoughts will be far more susceptible to melta fire with the shadowkeeper nerf.
Eternal penitent being once per army will make for more unreliable charges. Instead of scaling with battle size like WLT and Relics, it is a flat one off.
Tanglefoot now requiring LOS means that if you get charged from behind cover - you're out of luck.
These losses are hard. We got other things, true, but nothing that compensates for that imo.
Thairne wrote: Well the strats in itself arent THAT bad.
What hurts is whats missing/changed.
Firstly, venetari will disappear like before. Doubletapping is what saved them and that is downright gone now.
Allarus will only have 2D weapons and no double tap sniping either. Auramite and Adamantium is gone, so they're far more vulnerable.So they took a hit as well, just as Aquilons by proxy did.
Shield guard lost their 3++. I dont need to explain that this is bad.
The entire army struggles to deal with anything that is -1D since its LOADED with 2D and no way to get past that.
Stooping dive, especially when powered by Trajan, is gone. That means bikes lose a big chunk of utility and offensive power.
All dreadnoughts will be far more susceptible to melta fire with the shadowkeeper nerf.
Eternal penitent being once per army will make for more unreliable charges. Instead of scaling with battle size like WLT and Relics, it is a flat one off.
Tanglefoot now requiring LOS means that if you get charged from behind cover - you're out of luck.
These losses are hard. We got other things, true, but nothing that compensates for that imo.
I think the faction traits we've got from Emissaries and Shadowkeeprs alone offset almost all of this. Just like with GK (which I play as well and I remember all the GK players saying they were nerfed to C tier based on their leaks), we are going to play differently. GK was a completely different army in how it played pre-Codex, the same will be true of us. Most of what you're listing here are just the casualties of that.
Might be, but I can go only on what we have so far.
And in that scenario, I dont feel well above the codex at all.
The things I got told in private were cut after playtesting, so my rumours turned out to be false.
We lost a lot in the final tested version to this. A lot.
Whats funny is that there is a prominent 40k Youtuber, whos a very active custodes player. So active, GW made put him on the rules team, for the last Custodes rules update in WoTS. Those helped a LOT. This looks like they cut the Custodes staff, and replaced it with the same team that made the Space Marines base Codex. We are literally now just a bunch of Larger stronger Space Marine Captains running around. We have transhuman, Relic MC Bolters, MC weapons, and still crap movement.
Last resort - if they point nerf the LR or the Plastic dreadnaut I'll know they hate our faction. All we literally have to hope for now is the FW writing team giving us rules that basically break the game again. Telemon now punches at d3+6 damage, and the Storm cannons now get +4 flat damage under 24". Something silly and stupid but capable at least of giving us a chance.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Whats funny is that there is a prominent 40k Youtuber, whos a very active custodes player. So active, GW made put him on the rules team, for the last Custodes rules update in WoTS. Those helped a LOT. This looks like they cut the Custodes staff, and replaced it with the same team that made the Space Marines base Codex. We are literally now just a bunch of Larger stronger Space Marine Captains running around. We have transhuman, Relic MC Bolters, MC weapons, and still crap movement.
Last resort - if they point nerf the LR or the Plastic dreadnaut I'll know they hate our faction. All we literally have to hope for now is the FW writing team giving us rules that basically break the game again. Telemon now punches at d3+6 damage, and the Storm cannons now get +4 flat damage under 24". Something silly and stupid but capable at least of giving us a chance.
FW and GW have been the same rules writing team for some time now. Including when the current Imperial Armour was released (which is one of the reasons I argue they didn't know what they were going to do with the Custodes codex when they released IA as there are discrepancies in there). Anyway, wouldn't expect much FW change.
Custodes players already bought lots of resin stuff. Plastic needs to be pushed again. Weirdly they have done this not by making the plastic rules exciting, but instead by cutting the legs out from under the resin. I can't see resin getting buffed again for a long time personally.
In that case we better prep for the Telemon to go T7.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Jesus we better hope and pray we don't get points nerfs like the GSC just got in the leaks. Their Acolyte Hybrid troops are 9ppm, and their weapons are all 10 or 20 points. And they nerfed the squad sizes from 5-15. No more giant mobs. Please don't kill us in points.
Tiberias wrote: Edit: new community article lists "heavy power weapons" for abberants with a S+3 Ap2 Dmg3 profile. So you are telling me some mutated miners with a pickaxe get a better profile than our allarus terminators with relic power axes that are supposedly all mastercrafted works of art....makes sense. Seriously, this is some bs.
Kellercheese with revolvers banged together from scrap junk better than Dark Age of Technology relic bolt pistols and archaotech guns: First time, mon'keigh?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I don't understand any of what GW is doing. I am beggining to think like a Conspiracy Theorist. I don't think GW cares about balance.
Um, you really don't get how GW works? If the army is pet of incompetent rules writer (*cough* Phil Kelly *cough* Eldar *cough* that other dude who can't do math *cough* Tau *cough*) it will be broken. If it is designed by someone who doesn't like army (*cough* Phil Kelly *cough* Cruddace *cough* Deathwatch *cough* Tyranids *cough*) it will be garbage. You basically need to pray you get someone who likes the army (or at least has any idea how it plays and what are supposed to be its strong points) AND that they don't have a bad day and/or balance it to the level of the first book of the edition while his colleagues just finished writing broken gak making it instantly obsolete.
So, if you like primaris, tyranids, IG, inquisition, or ynnari, you're basically screwed, these armies seem to have no one pushing them in GW right now and all you can hope for is an unintentional screwup of the rule writer or the faction being unintentionally boosted by something broken in sister faction that was copy pasted and somehow translated into buff of said unliked army.
There was one competent rules writer who managed to put whole, balanced edition without any significant outliers but 4chan grade morons whined him out of company because they hated two lines of fluff in the book (where he wrote rules, not fluff, to make it even dumber). Go figure
Tiberias wrote: Edit: new community article lists "heavy power weapons" for abberants with a S+3 Ap2 Dmg3 profile. So you are telling me some mutated miners with a pickaxe get a better profile than our allarus terminators with relic power axes that are supposedly all mastercrafted works of art....makes sense. Seriously, this is some bs.
Kellercheese with revolvers banged together from scrap junk better than Dark Age of Technology relic bolt pistols and archaotech guns: First time, mon'keigh?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I don't understand any of what GW is doing. I am beggining to think like a Conspiracy Theorist. I don't think GW cares about balance.
Um, you really don't get how GW works? If the army is pet of incompetent rules writer (*cough* Phil Kelly *cough* Eldar *cough* that other dude who can't do math *cough* Tau *cough*) it will be broken. If it is designed by someone who doesn't like army (*cough* Phil Kelly *cough* Cruddace *cough* Deathwatch *cough* Tyranids *cough*) it will be garbage. You basically need to pray you get someone who likes the army (or at least has any idea how it plays and what are supposed to be its strong points) AND that they don't have a bad day and/or balance it to the level of the first book of the edition while his colleagues just finished writing broken gak making it instantly obsolete.
So, if you like primaris, tyranids, IG, inquisition, or ynnari, you're basically screwed, these armies seem to have no one pushing them in GW right now and all you can hope for is an unintentional screwup of the rule writer or the faction being unintentionally boosted by something broken in sister faction that was copy pasted and somehow translated into buff of said unliked army.
There was one competent rules writer who managed to put whole, balanced edition without any significant outliers but 4chan grade morons whined him out of company because they hated two lines of fluff in the book (where he wrote rules, not fluff, to make it even dumber). Go figure
Oh wise Elder, Tell us of the long long back! Who was this mythical writer whos rules made sense and his points were Just?
I would say I've only been playing since late 7th (I bought my BRB a week before they went to 8th and the store never told me) But it felt like 8th was generally positive. There were dumb broken things like Smash Captains, and Knights, and anything with "Ironhands" in the title, but otherwise it was fun. I didn't play as anything but Custodes though, so I have a very skewed perspective.
Thairne wrote: Well the strats in itself arent THAT bad.
What hurts is whats missing/changed.
Firstly, venetari will disappear like before. Doubletapping is what saved them and that is downright gone now.
Allarus will only have 2D weapons and no double tap sniping either. Auramite and Adamantium is gone, so they're far more vulnerable.So they took a hit as well, just as Aquilons by proxy did.
Shield guard lost their 3++. I dont need to explain that this is bad.
The entire army struggles to deal with anything that is -1D since its LOADED with 2D and no way to get past that.
Stooping dive, especially when powered by Trajan, is gone. That means bikes lose a big chunk of utility and offensive power.
All dreadnoughts will be far more susceptible to melta fire with the shadowkeeper nerf.
Eternal penitent being once per army will make for more unreliable charges. Instead of scaling with battle size like WLT and Relics, it is a flat one off.
Tanglefoot now requiring LOS means that if you get charged from behind cover - you're out of luck.
These losses are hard. We got other things, true, but nothing that compensates for that imo.
A lot of this looks premature. Venetari losing double tapping is a big deal but otherwise they seem like they should benefit from a lot of the new rules. They're less of a bomb unit that comes in with 5 men and deletes a thing but three man squads still seems reasonable. Allarus also have some issues but the rumor was that they got a significant point drop and again they really benefit from some of the new detachment rules.
I'm not saying you're really wrong about what we're losing and basically all of the competitive builds are dead, but we're gaining a lot of powerful things too and it'll take a bit to see how the power level shakes out.
One thing I'm really interested in is the low volume big guns. Caladius, Missile Bikes, etc. Those seem efficient with some of the rerolls we can get and they offset quite a few of the weaknesses.
Take 3 1 man units and a terminator captain for a guarenteed 8 points on Behind Enemy lines and probably 10-12 points by the end of the game.
They wont kill much, but they score points for us which we were in a big need of.
Terminator captain is looking to be pretty decent though. Give him an axe and the Reroll wounds against characters monsters and vehicles trait and he becomes pretty deadly.
Tiberias wrote: Edit: new community article lists "heavy power weapons" for abberants with a S+3 Ap2 Dmg3 profile. So you are telling me some mutated miners with a pickaxe get a better profile than our allarus terminators with relic power axes that are supposedly all mastercrafted works of art....makes sense. Seriously, this is some bs.
Kellercheese with revolvers banged together from scrap junk better than Dark Age of Technology relic bolt pistols and archaotech guns: First time, mon'keigh?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I don't understand any of what GW is doing. I am beggining to think like a Conspiracy Theorist. I don't think GW cares about balance.
Um, you really don't get how GW works? If the army is pet of incompetent rules writer (*cough* Phil Kelly *cough* Eldar *cough* that other dude who can't do math *cough* Tau *cough*) it will be broken. If it is designed by someone who doesn't like army (*cough* Phil Kelly *cough* Cruddace *cough* Deathwatch *cough* Tyranids *cough*) it will be garbage. You basically need to pray you get someone who likes the army (or at least has any idea how it plays and what are supposed to be its strong points) AND that they don't have a bad day and/or balance it to the level of the first book of the edition while his colleagues just finished writing broken gak making it instantly obsolete.
So, if you like primaris, tyranids, IG, inquisition, or ynnari, you're basically screwed, these armies seem to have no one pushing them in GW right now and all you can hope for is an unintentional screwup of the rule writer or the faction being unintentionally boosted by something broken in sister faction that was copy pasted and somehow translated into buff of said unliked army.
There was one competent rules writer who managed to put whole, balanced edition without any significant outliers but 4chan grade morons whined him out of company because they hated two lines of fluff in the book (where he wrote rules, not fluff, to make it even dumber). Go figure
Oh boy, here we go again.
Two of the examples you shared aren't even armies in their own right, basically just add-ons to existing armies when it comes to Ynnari and Inquisition, so it's hardly surprising that GW don't give them a lot of love given that they're anathema to their whole "no model, no rules" philosophy when an Inquisitor is supposed to be one of the most diverse and eclectic units in the game given their ability to requisition and specialize in pretty much anything they want. They're really better suited for an RPG system than anything else. Similarly, Ynnari were a recent addition that GW have basically written into a corner with Ynnead and so they're in this weird spot where they're not willing to go any further than the 3 characters which is probably why they've just settled to roll them into the Craftworld codex with Harlequins.
Tyranids have had a bad time rules wise for sure, can't argue that, though they've at least gotten some updates to actually be able to run things like the Crusher Stampede and the Leviathan update. At least model wise they're actually not doing that terribly.
I have no idea how you've come to the conclusion that somehow Primaris is in a bad spot. Not all of their releases have been meta darlings but I'd hardly say they're neglected by GW in any way when they're literally the poster boy for 40k. Have you seen how many Primaris Lieutenants they've released? Even competitively speaking, they're not in a bad place, when you consider that a significant amount of top meta 40k lists use Primaris units for both troops and elites and using exclusively Primaris armies is perfectly valid.
I'm not sure if you're referring to Matt Ward in your last statement, because he 100% was involved with the terrible fluff writing for the main SM codex AND 5th ed precisely went off the rails partly because he kept one-upping his codices in 5th ed. BA were literally SM+1 when they were released after SM, and then GK borderline broke the game by being better than everyone else with Paladin spam until 6th edition rolled in.
Keep in mind Irbis was the same person who claimed Ork boyz would break the game when they were said to have T5, calling them "Orkstodes" but then conveniently hasn't said anything since after it's been shown that pretty much nobody competitively takes Ork Boyz without being Trukk Boyz and even then it's basically a tax to take a patrol.
I have seen some mention of 4+ saves vs mortal wounds but nothing leaked so far shows that so where is that coming from? WOuld be great if so given that is the Custodes' Achilles heel.
Necronmaniac05 wrote: I have seen some mention of 4+ saves vs mortal wounds but nothing leaked so far shows that so where is that coming from? WOuld be great if so given that is the Custodes' Achilles heel.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I don't understand any of what GW is doing. I am beggining to think like a Conspiracy Theorist. I don't think GW cares about balance. Like at all. Balance doesn't drive profits, or help attendence at their big events. I feel like what they want is for each new faction to have a big flashy thing, and I still have not heard of any theory crafters talk about how out BC or "stances" will be of any good. I mean, yeah, we are doing better against hordes now? And we are better against elites and Characters. But that's like saying we were S tier before, and now we are S+. It's not like it helps us.
Can anyone come up with a reasonable way to use the stances we've been shown? Or even formulate a PL army off this dross?
So, here's the deal.
One: GW doesn't pay their writers and paytesters enough, so they don't do the best job they can, because they don't have the funds for it, and often the best writers ditch the company because they can make more designing other games
Two: The current rules have a lot of feedback from current competitive players. These players, er, not so shockingly like piling on rules that are supposed to make the game deeper, and also only look at balance through top tournament list based things.
Three: GW corporate does, on rare occasion, tell writers to push a kit or model. Not all the time, not even commonly. But it does happen.
Necronmaniac05 wrote: I have seen some mention of 4+ saves vs mortal wounds but nothing leaked so far shows that so where is that coming from? WOuld be great if so given that is the Custodes' Achilles heel.
Yes but my understanding was that was only if your shield host was the Emperors Chosen, so if you instead wanted to be the Shadowkeepers then you wouldn;t get that? Or am i getting confused?
Necronmaniac05 wrote: I have seen some mention of 4+ saves vs mortal wounds but nothing leaked so far shows that so where is that coming from? WOuld be great if so given that is the Custodes' Achilles heel.
Yes but my understanding was that was only if your shield host was the Emperors Chosen, so if you instead wanted to be the Shadowkeepers then you wouldn;t get that? Or am i getting confused?
no you got that right, Emperors Chosen seems pretty good.
Darron from canhammer translated some of the leaks
Spoiler:
Our SECONDARIES
1. In a battle round Kill a unit and not lose a unit for 4 pts (Custodes Grind)
2. Hold more objectives in no-man’s land than opponent at end of the turn (Custodes
Stranglehold) – 4 points (apparently new missions involve more no-man’s land
objectives)
3. Some kind of marked for death, killing most expensive unit – 5 points for the kill, 5
points if in combat, and 5 points if in opponent’s zone (or maybe just outside own zone)
Shield Hosts:
Emissaries
• Trait 1 – at beginning of combat phase, if in engagement range, can fight first
• Trait 2 - all attacks of this model ignores modifiers to hit and wound
• Strat – Dans Les Tenebres (2/3CP) – use at beginning before the 1st round, choose one
CORE emissaries unit, they can make a normal move but most stop 9” away from
enemies. Costs more CP if its 4 or more models. Only one use per game
• WLT - add 3” to aura range up to max of 12. This warlord gains this aura: Voice of the
Emperor – custodes and sisters units within 9” add 1 leadership?
• Relic: Bearer gains an aura – units within 3” ignore modifiers to movement, advancing
and charging. In the beginning of combat, roll d6 for each enemy unit within 3” of this
model. On 3+ enemy unit suffers a mortal wound. D3 mortals if the enemy unit has
leadership 7 or less.
• Katah - Conservai
Solar Watch
• Trait 1 – add 1 to advance and charge. If a unit already has “SOMETHING HERE”, add 7”
instead of 6” to to movement (so like bikes auto advance 7” instead of 6” I think
• Trait 2 – Can fall back and charge
• Strat – 1CP – use this anytime when enemy warlord is killed by a solar watch unit. Until
the end of the phase, attrition tests are at -1 for enemy
• WLT – at beginning of charge phase, pick a infantry solar watch unit within 6” of this
model. Until the end of the phase, that unit can charge even if it advanced.
• Relic – Guardian spear relic (the spoiled one)
• Katah - calistus
Aquilan Shield
• Trait 1 – Everyone can heroic
• Trait 2 – treat ap 1 attacks as ap0
• Strat – 1CP – this is the bodyguard strat that was spoiled already
• WLT – damage is halved against this warlord against all attacks
• Relic – Praesidius – storm shield bearer, attacks against bearer are -1 to wound
• Katah Salvus
Dreadhost
• Trait 1 - Attacks to enemies within 9” add 1 to AP • Trait 2 – reroll charges
• Strat.2CP – Use this when placing a unit that was in deepstrike with that deepstrike
strat. For the rest of the turn, attacks against this unit are -1 to hit, and enemy units
cannot overwatch them
• WLT – in command phase, pick your warlord or a unit within 6”. Until next command
phase, hit rolls of unmodified 6 cause 1 extra hit
• Relic – admonimortis – S5/-1/2D shooting at 24” rapid fire 1, +3/-3/3D melee axe
• Katah – Dacatarai
Shadowkeepers
• Trait 1 – enemy units within engagement range -1 A
• Trait 2 – Reroll wounds against characters for all attacks
• Strat 1CP - -1S for attacks against units (not including vehicles)
• WLT – lockwarden – no invulns against attacks (all attacks)
• Relic – choose one enemy within engagement range to fight last
• Katah- Kaptaris
Emperors Chosen
• Trait 1 – everytime you shoot or fight, reroll 1 hit or wound roll per unit
• Trait 2 – 4+ save against all mortals
• Strat – 1CP – in command phase, choose a host unit, then choose another shield host.
Until next command phase, those models have all those new shield host traits instead.
• WLT – everytime warlord fights, it gains extra attacks per models up to 4 (I think)
• Relic – guardian spear – 24” rapid fire 1 5/-1/2D, melee +3/-5/2D
• Katah – Rendax
•
Relics:
• Eagle eye – add 1 wound. once per battle activate 3+ invuln until end of the phase
• Auric Aquilas - biker only. Reroll charges. If you can do this already, then add 1 to
charge rolls. In movement phase, you can double move, but cannot shoot or charge
• Guardian spear relic – rapid fire 2 str5/-2/2D, S+2/-3/2D melee. Shooting autohits
• La Lame Voilee - Sentinel blade relic – Pistol 2 4/-1/2D, +1/-4/2D melee. Bearer makes 2
extra attacks in combat
• Obliteratum as spoiled
• Vexillus relic – figure GAINS (not replaces) this aura – when unit or character CORE with
shield host is within 6”, ignores all cover for attacks
Edit: now there is more translated stuff.
Edit 2: updated and including trajann sheet
Edit 3: updated
Wardens only got the bodyguard rule added compared to 8th ed codex? Are you fething kidding me? "oh, here's a unit NOBODY ever plays in custodes....let's not improve them at all" fething GW.
The warlord traits and relics seem decent at least....the shield host traits look good also. Shadowkeepers is really good, the one with 4+ feelnopain against mortals is obviously strong. Emissaries imperatus seem really strong also, fight first and ignore hit and wound modifiers...not bad.
But damn, Trajann is the new Cawl.
Not running him seems like a BAD idea. He hits like a truck, rerolls like a Skitarii Marshal, has 2 WLT which gives you 33% more CP and has additional utility.
So basically a bunch of nerfs, a bunch of key things flat out removed, a few sidegrades, and a couple buffs. Can't wait to not play my custodes for 2 years.
Not in any way clutch for our factions success but still badass: blade champion with the shadowkeeper WL trait can basically kill most characters in the game with very decent consistency (except of course characters like ghazgkull/c'tan or mortarion).
Trajann is going to retain his spot in almost all custodes lists imo. He's really good.
Thairne wrote: But damn, Trajann is the new Cawl.
Not running him seems like a BAD idea. He hits like a truck, rerolls like a Skitarii Marshal, has 2 WLT which gives you 33% more CP and has additional utility.
Uh correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't Trajann always been the second HQ you always take after a Dawneagle Shield-Captain?
Tiberias wrote: Wardens only got the bodyguard rule added compared to 8th ed codex? Are you fething kidding me? "oh, here's a unit NOBODY ever plays in custodes....let's not improve them at all" fething GW.
For real. Such beautiful models that NEVER see use except maybe when you want to build a Shield-Captain/Vexilla from a single box...
Thairne wrote: But damn, Trajann is the new Cawl.
Not running him seems like a BAD idea. He hits like a truck, rerolls like a Skitarii Marshal, has 2 WLT which gives you 33% more CP and has additional utility.
Uh correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't Trajann always been the second HQ you always take after a Dawneagle Shield-Captain?
Tiberias wrote: Wardens only got the bodyguard rule added compared to 8th ed codex? Are you fething kidding me? "oh, here's a unit NOBODY ever plays in custodes....let's not improve them at all" fething GW.
For real. Such beautiful models that NEVER see use except maybe when you want to build a Shield-Captain/Vexilla from a single box...
So can someone explain Emisarries to me? During the movement phase of turn 1 they can move an additional 9 inches on deployment? So our terminators get a 15-25" move on turn 1? That seems broken as hell for killing characters. Just saying, that's at least a dead character on turn 1 shooting. Also likely a turn 1 charge. Not to mention a Teleport Homer if you do it with a flag and a bunch of bikes.
But sure, let's just reinforce that first turn lethality problem. Because that's what the players want right?
But it's still MC bolters for the SoS, which is insane.
No, Emissaries strat = 1 unit can make a Normal Move, at the beginning of the first battle round before the 1st turn begins. That unit cannot finish that move within 9" of enemy models. 2CP for unit of 3 or less models, 3CP for 4 or more.
Terminators also lost their character sniping strat so even if they could move further I don't see why it would be a threat to enemy characters in the shooting phase.
Valerian apparently got perma transhuman and his spear Gnosis ignores rules like ghazghkull/c'tan only x dmg per phase. This is huge actually. Mr useless got the buff of the century.
I also keep coming back to the blade champion: imo he's quite versatile in the new codex depending on the shield host:
-in shadowkeepers you can make him into absolute nightmare against characters, even more so than he is now.
-if you go with the standard magna Imperator shield host you can spent a CP to give him both the magna imperator Wl trait and peerless warrior. So he does MWs on 6s to wound in addition and he gets extra attacks depending on how much models he killed (up to 4). So with his hurricanis profile he gets up to 20(!) attacks that do extra mortal wounds. He can singlehandedly mulch his way through any horde unit basically.
I think this codex will be our herohammer codex because Trajann Valoris and Valerian most likely being auto includes and the blade champion being versatile enough to find his way into many lists.
The only thing I hate (aside from our fething weapon profiles) is that GW took the design choice to take away durability and make us cheaper in places. I hate this idea so much...this is not what custodes should be like. They should have given all our Infantry +1W and +1A and made us more expensive. Also shields are a bad joke now....+1save for 5p? No thanks, with all the AP going around this is so not worth it.
Tiberias wrote: Valerian apparently got perma transhuman and his spear Gnosis ignores rules like ghazghkull/c'tan only x dmg per phase. This is huge actually. Mr useless got the buff of the century.
I also keep coming back to the blade champion: imo he's quite versatile in the new codex depending on the shield host:
-in shadowkeepers you can make him into absolute nightmare against characters, even more so than he is now.
-if you go with the standard magna Imperator shield host you can spent a CP to give him both the magna imperator Wl trait and peerless warrior. So he does MWs on 6s to wound in addition and he gets extra attacks depending on how much models he killed (up to 4). So with his hurricanis profile he gets up to 20(!) attacks that do extra mortal wounds. He can singlehandedly mulch his way through any horde unit basically.
I think this codex will be our herohammer codex because Trajann Valoris and Valerian most likely being auto includes and the blade champion being versatile enough to find his way into many lists.
The only thing I hate (aside from our fething weapon profiles) is that GW took the design choice to take away durability and make us cheaper in places. I hate this idea so much...this is not what custodes should be like. They should have given all our Infantry +1W and +1A and made us more expensive. Also shields are a bad joke now....+1save for 5p? No thanks, with all the AP going around this is so not worth it.
I agree and i like most of the stuff we have seen in the new codex but Deathwing knights are still better at being custodes than custodes themselves and i really don't understand why GW did that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Full english codex:
Tiberias wrote: Valerian apparently got perma transhuman and his spear Gnosis ignores rules like ghazghkull/c'tan only x dmg per phase. This is huge actually. Mr useless got the buff of the century.
I also keep coming back to the blade champion: imo he's quite versatile in the new codex depending on the shield host:
-in shadowkeepers you can make him into absolute nightmare against characters, even more so than he is now.
-if you go with the standard magna Imperator shield host you can spent a CP to give him both the magna imperator Wl trait and peerless warrior. So he does MWs on 6s to wound in addition and he gets extra attacks depending on how much models he killed (up to 4). So with his hurricanis profile he gets up to 20(!) attacks that do extra mortal wounds. He can singlehandedly mulch his way through any horde unit basically.
I think this codex will be our herohammer codex because Trajann Valoris and Valerian most likely being auto includes and the blade champion being versatile enough to find his way into many lists.
The only thing I hate (aside from our fething weapon profiles) is that GW took the design choice to take away durability and make us cheaper in places. I hate this idea so much...this is not what custodes should be like. They should have given all our Infantry +1W and +1A and made us more expensive. Also shields are a bad joke now....+1save for 5p? No thanks, with all the AP going around this is so not worth it.
I agree and i like most of the stuff we have seen in the new codex but Deathwing knights are still better at being custodes than custodes themselves and i really don't understand why GW did that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Full english codex:
So two things: He assumes that the FW infantry will get the auric weapons and Stances/host abilities. Has that been confirmed? Then he does a disservice, out's himself as a complete shill, with this line: "Praetorian Plate. It brings us no pleasure to announce that everyone who got mad at us every time we didn’t proclaim weird combos with the old version to be the best thing in Custodes now looks retroactively justified, because this thing is monstrous." - Great, we have a fall out of combat teleport/Heroic Intervention ability. That lands us in combat with a different charging unit. How is this "Monstrous"?
I think the shield hosts look cool, and if the analysis is right, we should be very adapt at killing lists made entirely of characters. But otherwise, until we know where we stand with our FW units, I am still reserving judgement.
PS - Bolter Sisters are back to stock standard 4/0/1 bolters. Meh. Our flamers are better at penetrating than our bolters?
He doesn't assume auric on the FW stuff, just mentions that it would be if it did.
.
The Codex also introduces a new weapon type called Auric Weapons, which covers all flavours of “blade but also a gun”. While there are some weapons like this in the Compendium, we have NOT assumed that any will get this tag, as the wording in the Codex is pretty specific
Emphasis mine. What they did assume was the FW guys getting kata access
Necronmaniac05 wrote: I have seen some mention of 4+ saves vs mortal wounds but nothing leaked so far shows that so where is that coming from? WOuld be great if so given that is the Custodes' Achilles heel.
Yes but my understanding was that was only if your shield host was the Emperors Chosen, so if you instead wanted to be the Shadowkeepers then you wouldn;t get that? Or am i getting confused?
That's a shame since I normally run Shadowkeepers I was hoping all Custodes got better FNP vs Mortals.
I also run Sword and Board so losing that 3++ Invul is a big blow. The subfaction traits look pretty fun though and I'm glad Valerian was boosted, I may give him a shot sometime.
Alright gents in order to curb the negatively, here’s my first draft for the CA points (look for those leaks if you unaware of these points changes, and be aware we get knives for free everywhere). This list doesn’t use any FW units, so it probably could be optimized more. That said I like it as a first draft, as I believe MSU lists with emperors chosen makes the most sense overall.
Emperors.Chosen
Trajann 160 + 1CP, warlord
Biker cap 160 (-3 CP for; radiant mantle trait, superior creation trait, and auric aquilues relic)
Terminator Cap 115, +10 for unstoppable destroyer captain command trait, 125 (-2 CP for; eagle eye relic and emperors chosen trait)
Plan here is just to where my opponents resources down, while using mostly army wide obsec to gain early points. Bikers and termi bannerman act as anti-vehicle firepower at range. Biker cap is a backfield harassment unit. Everyone else goes into 2 sorta bricks, with Trajanns brick taking the lead with the +1 attack bannerman, and the termi cap takes brick/wave 2 with termi bannerman.
Overall feels like it could be pretty good, as most armies should struggle some to kill this many wounds, especially since everyone is getting 1 CP trans human and emperors auspice.
So, compared to the GSC codex, our book seems like a complete afterthought. They have strong, fluffy rules and good on them, they deserve it.
Our book seems like a complete afterthought in comparison. The weapon profiles are an atrocity. Shields losing the 3++ is fine, but only making them +1 save is laughable. Our custodian guard and termis dropping in points and not gaining some survivability like +1W is super dumb and about the most in-fluffy thing you can do with custodes.
The only things I am excited about are our characters, the shield host traits and that we retained some of our bread and butter stratagems.
Thairne wrote: yes, but you end up with a 0+ save which is only worse against AP-4 (or ignore cover, which does not tend to go below -2 that often).
Ahhhh, I see what you mean. Well I did recently paint up a praetor I suppose I can give him a shot.
Haven't seen the GSC codex yet but I am glad they are getting fluffy rules, they certainly deserve it after being bottom of the barrel for so long. I'm also disappointed that Custodes didn't get a +1W across the board. I was thinking since Orks were getting T5 they may decide to make Custodes T6 or +1W but, here we are.
It's so weird because, to me, this codex seemed so easy to make awesome.
Simplify rules, add a few stat increases across the board, adjust weapon profiles a bit towards the standards of 9th, add a few genuinely exciting little gameplay tweaks and abilities, make sure that lesser-used units are good now, and you are pretty much done.
I feel they took what was probably the easiest codex to adapt and turned it into a really lackluster and boring slog.
As one of the goonhammer dudes put it:
"This codex feels like it’s lacking something I can point to and say “Yeah, that’s Custodes right there, that’s what this army is all about.”
leerm02 wrote: It's so weird because, to me, this codex seemed so easy to make awesome.
Simplify rules, add a few stat increases across the board, adjust weapon profiles a bit towards the standards of 9th, add a few genuinely exciting little gameplay tweaks and abilities, make sure that lesser-used units are good now, and you are pretty much done.
I feel they took what was probably the easiest codex to adapt and turned it into a really lackluster and boring slog.
As one of the goonhammer dudes put it:
"This codex feels like it’s lacking something I can point to and say “Yeah, that’s Custodes right there, that’s what this army is all about.”
I mean, the other two previewers were more positive:
The Custodes codex seems like a pleasant surprise – a book that threads the needle of taking the previous iteration and reining in some really tiresome effects, while retaining and improving some of the useful flavour and power and adding some new bits of its own. Throughout 9th edition the Adeptus Custodes have sat in a middle-to-high tier 2 place in the meta, capable of going the distance and winning events but without the easy power that gives a faction a lock on the top placings (looking at you, Drukhari). That’s a good place for a book to be, and there was a lot of concern in the run-up to this Codex that it would swing Custodes too far in one direction or another – would GW overreact and strip away what made them work before, or would they “fix” units by turning all the knobs at once and creating a monster?
It looks like the answer is “neither”, and instead this feels like a well-considered book which adds some new depth to the faction, keeping it in the conversation for upper-mid tier power without overcooking it in a way that makes an opponent sigh when they see the golden boys across the table from them.
That was Corrode. Wings added:
What seems to be really key to making it work is the variable cost Stratagems, and I think if you’re an existing Custodes player looking at this and feeling faintly disappointed, definitely play a few games to get a feel for just how transformative 1CP Arcane Genetic Alchemy and Emperor’s Auspice are – it’s big stuff. I also feel like Ka’tahs are one of the more impactful versions of the “changing ability over the game” effect that GW have written, and the rewards if you choose to go for an Infantry/Biker heavy list are considerable.
These guys have it about right in my opinion. My view is that we're going to play different, but we're still going to play strong.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Has anyone found the base size for the Blade champion yet? I'd like to get started on my conversion. It's looking like 50?
32mm, going off the Shadow throne box contents (1x50,3x40,10x32,13x25) the 50 is the genestealer patriach and the 3 40mm are the allarus, so he kinda has to be a 32mm base.
Audustum: I'm slowly starting to come around to your final point.
I don't think the faction is screwed, it's just... different. Harder to use, honestly, with a lot more fiddly bits to keep track of and a lot more care that needs to go into playing them.
That's not a bad thing... but the Custodes used to always be my "Lazy Army". Now they are just a bit more of a thinker, and are going to have a much higher learning curve.
I guess I need to start hitting the books, studying up, and figuring out how to win. Like you said: it's not worse, just different.
But, truthfully? I didn't want different... I just wanted better :-(
After reading that Goonhammer article, I think they nailed it with their observations. I think the main strength of this new Codex is going to be the Martial Ka’tah. I think once AC players figure out the stances, other armies are going to have a heck of a time trying to “out-smart” the Custodes. I think it’s kind of awesome to be able to tailor your game to your opponent.
Relic: Obliteratum for S10 -5 D3+3 shooting
WLT1: Shadowkeeper trait for no invulns
WLT2: Champion of the Imperium for rerolls
CC: +1 to wound against characters
and then you use the strat to give him dread host fighting stance for AP -4.
6 S7 attacks with +1 to wound, AP-4, no invulns at D2 and a S10 -5 D3+3 assault 1 weapon with RR1s to hit
buh-bye basically everything.
or switch out Obliteratum for Praetorian Plate.
Or Stasis Oubliette.
Or the rerolls for Peerless Warrior for MWs on 6s.
Shield Captain Smashfucker is back.
avg 10W on a 3+ target, 8-10W on a 2+ target up to T6.
With obliteratum, you get up to 15W/13W respectively.
Audustum: I'm slowly starting to come around to your final point.
I don't think the faction is screwed, it's just... different. Harder to use, honestly, with a lot more fiddly bits to keep track of and a lot more care that needs to go into playing them.
That's not a bad thing... but the Custodes used to always be my "Lazy Army". Now they are just a bit more of a thinker, and are going to have a much higher learning curve.
I guess I need to start hitting the books, studying up, and figuring out how to win. Like you said: it's not worse, just different.
But, truthfully? I didn't want different... I just wanted better :-(
Yeah, to some extent I did too, but I guess it's time to get the ole brain meats a moving, haha.
Dang it, dang it, dang it. I was hoping that with the leaked contents of the 30k box that our Contemptor would have gained a weapon option or two. Sadly it did not. We can keep our fingers crossed that they FAQ in the options when the new model arrives.
I'm working on putting together a All Bikers list, and I'm trying to figure out, since Shadow Keepers seems like the only one beneficial to this type of list, it's likely to be them. Two Vertus Captains, Tip of the spear.
A Healthy mix of missiles and bikes in squads of 6. We'll see how it goes.
So really, is there any reason NOT to always take Sword n Board on regular guard now? The +1 save coupled with Swords now +1 S and better shootings means I'm struggling to find a situation where spears would be better. MAYBE if you know you'll be facing a lot of MCs like Nids, but in which case the shields will be even more valuable...
artific3r wrote: So what options do we have against really tough units and things with -1d like plagueburst crawlers? Salvo launchers?
And FW dreads. An Achillus will break many tough nuts in melee.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: So really, is there any reason NOT to always take Sword n Board on regular guard now? The +1 save coupled with Swords now +1 S and better shootings means I'm struggling to find a situation where spears would be better. MAYBE if you know you'll be facing a lot of MCs like Nids, but in which case the shields will be even more valuable...
I guess if you're going heavy offense with your Guardians. Otherwise, yeah, Guardians probably still want shields even without the 3++.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Has anyone found the base size for the Blade champion yet? I'd like to get started on my conversion. It's looking like 50?
32mm, going off the Shadow throne box contents (1x50,3x40,10x32,13x25) the 50 is the genestealer patriach and the 3 40mm are the allarus, so he kinda has to be a 32mm base.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Has anyone found the base size for the Blade champion yet? I'd like to get started on my conversion. It's looking like 50?
32mm, going off the Shadow throne box contents (1x50,3x40,10x32,13x25) the 50 is the genestealer patriach and the 3 40mm are the allarus, so he kinda has to be a 32mm base.
No, the blade champion is on a 40mm base.
Can confirm the 40mm base.
So after some salt from the custodes community about some aspects of the codex(myself included), I am trying to think about the stuff I really like about the new book:
Firstly, I think it's great that basically all of the shield host traits are playable and it's actually difficult for me to pick a favorite.
Emperors Chosen with the once per unit reroll and 4+++ vs mortals might be the best general purpose one, especially for lists with lots dreadnoughts like the Telemon, since it's one of the very few rerolls left in the book the Telemon can benefit from.
I personally am biased towards shadowkeepers for a couple of reasons: the trait itself with - 1 attack is really good against combat armies, but what I like most about them is the relic and the warlord trait. Fight last is a very valuable ability and the stasis oubilette is the only source we have in the book, the warlord trait strait up ignoring invulns against enemy characters can also be just bonkers good depending on matchup. So shadowkeepers might be a more situational choice depending on the meta game.
Emisassaries Imperatus is another very strong choice simply because of the shield host traits. Always fight first and ignoring all hit and wound modifiers is really nice actually. Getting a pregame move with the strat can also be clutch. Imo this is the sleeper hit of the shield hosts.
Solar watch might actually be the strongest one. Getting +1 to advance and charge and access to advance and charge (even if it's just one unit and only on Infantry) is just simply very strong in a game where movement is king. The relic is bad and the strat is very situational, but who cares when the other buffs are that good.
Dread host is actually also very strong. Reroll charges and +1ap on every weapon when enemy is within 9" is nothing to be laughed at. Ironically this shield host is probably inferior to solar watch if you want to deepstrike terminators or dreadnoughts, since reroll charges might be nice, but getting a flat +1 to your charge that you then still have the option to reroll with a command point is simply more reliable.
The only one I don't find that good or interesting is aquilan shield. But it's actually really cool that 5 out of 6 available shield hosts are very much playable.
Another thing that I can't stress enough is how strong our characters feel now. There are some very good combinations available and our named characters are true powerhouses (trajann especially). So to me this codex feels very much like herohammer.
Some of my favorite combinations:
Emperors chosen horde blender blade champ:
Gets both the Auric Paragon and Peerless warrior WL trait, so he gets up to 4 extra attacks and does MWs on 6s to wound. So if you use the hurricanis profile you get 12 attacks base and up to 8 more if you manage to kill 4 models. So 20 attacks that do mortal wounds in 6s to wound....thats a LOT of horde clearing power for 110p. You can even push this to 24 attacks with the right Kata and banner.
Shadowkeepers character hunter (either bike captain or blade champ):
Giving either the blade champ or bike captain both the shadowkeepers WL trait and relic makes them truly horrifying for most enemy characters. Making them fight last and ignoring invulns is just super oppressive.
Which character fulfills this role better remains to be seen. The bike captain obviously is better at actually getting to enemy characters, but the blade champion has more raw damage potential due to Ap4, Dmg3 and reroll all wounds.
Insta teleporting terminator captain:
This one actually might see some play, because if you give a terminator captain the praetorian plate you can yeet him across the board into any ongoing combat with a heroic intervention. That flexibility of movement on a tough obsec body is actually amazing.
Another thing that's very positive are our arrange of stratagems. Transhuman and emperor's auspice getting cheaper on small units is awesome and still having access to tanglefoot grenade can be super clutch. Losing teleport homer and stooping dive is a bit sad, but not terrible.
One last thing I want to mention, that I really like is our Auric Mortalis secondary. It might be occasionaly very good depending on matchup, but I mainly enjoy that one because it's just epic and cool.
The other two secondaries are not that usefull in my opinion, but I might be overlooking something.
So this is my purposefully positive take on the new codex. There's a lot of stuff I'm not keen about and some lost opportunities, but the army definitely won't be bottom tier.
cuda1179 wrote: Dang it, dang it, dang it. I was hoping that with the leaked contents of the 30k box that our Contemptor would have gained a weapon option or two. Sadly it did not. We can keep our fingers crossed that they FAQ in the options when the new model arrives.
I must have missed that one, what weapons are being added to the FW Dreads?
cuda1179 wrote: Dang it, dang it, dang it. I was hoping that with the leaked contents of the 30k box that our Contemptor would have gained a weapon option or two. Sadly it did not. We can keep our fingers crossed that they FAQ in the options when the new model arrives.
I must have missed that one, what weapons are being added to the FW Dreads?
None, but the preview showed what appeared to be the plastic contemptor but with a weapons fit not on the plastic kit, implying they were going to add extra guns to non relic contemptor (ie the version we have)
Eihnlazer wrote: Honestly dont expect to see more than 6 custodian guard in any lists anymore.
Why take a 50pt sword and board guard, when you can take 50pt wardens?
You'll need 2 squads of 3 to fill out your battalion along with a squad of prosecutors. Thats it though. The days of custodian guard are gone.
Agreed. To expand on your point, Sword and board Guys still need light cover to truly be durable, and that’s not guaranteed even with the banner (and they still fold to -4 AP, which isn’t that uncommon). I also don’t even like vexilla defensor, as it won’t do much for our other units in many matchups, compared to the almost always useful +1 A and -1 to hit we get from the other 2.
I Think people want shield guard to be better option because they have many lying around from the last book, but this point it’s pretty clearly guardians are a tax you want to keep as cheap as possible.
Initially I was really down on the book after seeing all the leaks and previews.
Now having read the whole thing I'm cautiously optimistic but see a couple of big problems.
With the shield hosts, stances and character options we have alot of tricks and abilities to play around with and they will reward good planning and clever play which should be fun to use.
None of our units are bad (except obviously the landraider) and we can play the objective game really well still.
The two issues I still have are both mainly for competetive play.
Firstly we have dropped in overall survivability - losing all our 3++, and some of our strats just means we will die quicker VS some of the hyper efficient killing lists put there.
The rumored points drop on most things will help with this no doubt.
The second one is the big issue - how do we kill hard targets? Against drukhari monsters or the new nid monsters everything we have just bounces off. -1 dam and invul just completely shuts down our combat ability and a squad or two of bikes doesn't even start to cover this weakness.
Against most list we will be fun and competetive but again neg damage and/or invuln saves (which seems to be most new armies) we just don't really have a game other than hope to hold objectives.
not infantry, thats for sure.
I still dont know why they insisted on having castellan axes being D2, but that just forces you into FW.
The only codex option is Salvo launchers for 90 pts for 1 shot that can bounce of invulns.
Oh and, I guess the Melta Contemptor.
Telemons, Caladius, Achillus dreads and to some extent the humble Palas Grav Attack can fill that role as well.
I mean a Caladius doesnt look too bad at 205 pts... its not as efficient as ballistarii e.g. but you gotta take what you gotta take.
Relic: Obliteratum for S10 -5 D3+3 shooting
WLT1: Shadowkeeper trait for no invulns
WLT2: Champion of the Imperium for rerolls
CC: +1 to wound against characters
and then you use the strat to give him dread host fighting stance for AP -4.
6 S7 attacks with +1 to wound, AP-4, no invulns at D2 and a S10 -5 D3+3 assault 1 weapon with RR1s to hit
buh-bye basically everything.
or switch out Obliteratum for Praetorian Plate.
Or Stasis Oubliette.
Or the rerolls for Peerless Warrior for MWs on 6s.
Shield Captain Smashfucker is back.
avg 10W on a 3+ target, 8-10W on a 2+ target up to T6.
With obliteratum, you get up to 15W/13W respectively.
Except against anything with -1 damage, which is the stuff you REALLY need to kill cause it is often the best stuff in an army.
I am still puzzles why custodes got no -1 damage defense effects or +1 damage offense effects. These have been somewhere in almost every army in 9th.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I'm working on putting together a All Bikers list, and I'm trying to figure out, since Shadow Keepers seems like the only one beneficial to this type of list, it's likely to be them. Two Vertus Captains, Tip of the spear.
A Healthy mix of missiles and bikes in squads of 6. We'll see how it goes.
Magna Imperator is the way to go. You have to run pretty MSU, and the reroll a hit and wound for every MSU unit is quite strong.
artific3r wrote: So what options do we have against really tough units and things with -1d like plagueburst crawlers? Salvo launchers?
That and FW dreads.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: So really, is there any reason NOT to always take Sword n Board on regular guard now? The +1 save coupled with Swords now +1 S and better shootings means I'm struggling to find a situation where spears would be better. MAYBE if you know you'll be facing a lot of MCs like Nids, but in which case the shields will be even more valuable...
They're 5 points for a weak effect.
Eihnlazer wrote: Honestly dont expect to see more than 6 custodian guard in any lists anymore.
Why take a 50pt sword and board guard, when you can take 50pt wardens?
You'll need 2 squads of 3 to fill out your battalion along with a squad of prosecutors. Thats it though. The days of custodian guard are gone.
because your elite slots are better served on other things
WisdomLS wrote: Initially I was really down on the book after seeing all the leaks and previews.
Now having read the whole thing I'm cautiously optimistic but see a couple of big problems.
With the shield hosts, stances and character options we have alot of tricks and abilities to play around with and they will reward good planning and clever play which should be fun to use.
None of our units are bad (except obviously the landraider) and we can play the objective game really well still.
The two issues I still have are both mainly for competetive play.
Firstly we have dropped in overall survivability - losing all our 3++, and some of our strats just means we will die quicker VS some of the hyper efficient killing lists put there.
The rumored points drop on most things will help with this no doubt.
The second one is the big issue - how do we kill hard targets? Against drukhari monsters or the new nid monsters everything we have just bounces off. -1 dam and invul just completely shuts down our combat ability and a squad or two of bikes doesn't even start to cover this weakness.
Against most list we will be fun and competetive but again neg damage and/or invuln saves (which seems to be most new armies) we just don't really have a game other than hope to hold objectives.
FW Dreadnoughts and melta missiles. Nothing else in the army works against big -1d targets.
On the Custodian Guard point I think they still absolutely have a purpose. You can stack Praesidium Shield Wall (-1 to hit in melee) on them for a bit of a durability buff, you could use either the vexilla defensor (benefit of light cover) or magnifica (dense cover) for additional buffs AND you can use genetic arcane alchemy and/or the Emperor's Auspice on them and i think these would all make them pretty durable and compared to our other troops options they are already way more durable and capable of dishing it out in combat (and shooting if they get close enough). Plus wardens are elites and I would rather save my elites points/slots for dreads and allarus terminators.
I'm taking two squads of 4 in my 2k points list, I'm looking forward to seeing how they go.
Necronmaniac05 wrote: On the Custodian Guard point I think they still absolutely have a purpose. You can stack Praesidium Shield Wall (-1 to hit in melee) on them for a bit of a durability buff, you could use either the vexilla defensor (benefit of light cover) or magnifica (dense cover) for additional buffs AND you can use genetic arcane alchemy and/or the Emperor's Auspice on them and i think these would all make them pretty durable and compared to our other troops options they are already way more durable and capable of dishing it out in combat (and shooting if they get close enough). Plus wardens are elites and I would rather save my elites points/slots for dreads and allarus terminators.
I'm taking two squads of 4 in my 2k points list, I'm looking forward to seeing how they go.
Strongly consider dropping it to 3 per squad I think. That's the cutoff for making the strats cheaper. Being able to use Arcane and Auspice twice as many times will probably be better than 1 extra body per squad. You want to go 3 man or big man (as I call it, like 6+). My opinion anyway
I agree with that opinion. Specifically, I think that for pretty much all Custodes you go with a three-man squad.
1) More flexible
2) Less points
3) Cheaper strats
4) Still has Obsec
5) More targets for the opponent to shoot at / less maximum damage per opponent attack
Only Arcane Genetic Alchemy is cheaper with 3 guard models. Emperor's Auspice is 4 or fewer models = 1 CP and Praesidium shield wall is just a flat 1CP.
1st, slayers of nightmares also goes to 1 CP for a 3 man unit. Besides that, aside from some avenge the fallen optimization, what advantage do we get making our units 4 mans? I’d rather just flat ignore avenge then fallen and likely save overall efficiency and mental strain by sticking to 3 man units.
2nd. I’m partially basing hating shields on the expectation they go to 10 points, but even at their current prize I just don’t see it. The problem is in order to make shield guys actually durable, you need to build into them so they’re not just a list parasite. At that point why not go into wardens and terminators instead, since they actually have some offensive power?
If i went to 5 man squads I was thinking something like this (I play casual so the excess 5 points isn't a problem!):
HQs:
Trajann Valoris
Shield Captain in Allarus Terminator Armour with Praetorian Plate
Shield Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike, Tip of the Spear, Salvo launcher, Superior Creation & Impregnable Mind
Troops:
5 x Shield Guard
5 x Shield Guard
5 x Prosecutors
Elites:
Vexilus Praetor w guardian Spear and Vexilla Magnifica
Contemptor Galatus Dreadnought w Eternal Penitent
3 x Allarus Custodians w Castellan Axes
1 x Allarus Custodian w Castellan Axe
1 x Allarus Custodian w Castellan Axe
Fast Attack:
4 Vertus Praetors with salvo launchers
Shield Host: Emperor's Chosen
I can use the Emperor's Chosen strat to either put the Praetors into Solar Watch fighting style if i really need them to make a charge or another (such as Shadow Keepers) if i need the buff. two one man Allarus custodians for DS screening.
Are we the only faction in the game who's HQ choices are locked down to 1 per list? How many captains can you fit in a Space marine list, but we can only take 1 of each type?
Alright guys, here’s my nasty combo. You need captain in terminator armor with pretorian plate and a bike captain with auric Aquallias. I’d also recommend giving both superior creation and mantal of minus 1 to hit on the captain. I’d also recommend giving impregnable mind to the terminator captian. Until FAQ says otherwise, nothing precludes the bike captain from boosting with an advance, giving you 34 inches of movement to get as close as possible to your OP’s backfield objective(s). Now if your opponent will need to either A) clear your. Bike cap, or B) clear slightly more than 5 inches of space around you cap. Otherwise you teleport your thermi cap in and likely steal the objective for turn 2 scoring.
If your opponent goes for option B then keeping your bike captain isn’t that much of a priority to keep alive (distraction carnifex). If he goes for option A (which you’ll know since his units will still be around him during his pyschic, shooting, and charge phase) then you can use alechamy and Auspice to make sure he lives. Even your opponent thwarts your plans here you can still use plate later on in some other Capacity.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Are we the only faction in the game who's HQ choices are locked down to 1 per list? How many captains can you fit in a Space marine list, but we can only take 1 of each type?
It’s not 1 per army, it’s 1 of each type per detachment. That’s pretty liberal by Ork standards.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Are we the only faction in the game who's HQ choices are locked down to 1 per list? How many captains can you fit in a Space marine list, but we can only take 1 of each type?
It’s not 1 per army, it’s 1 of each type per detachment. That’s pretty liberal by Ork standards.
How many detachments do you plan on taking in a Custodes list? This isn't the Guard. It's a silly restriction given how Detachments work in the first place.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Are we the only faction in the game who's HQ choices are locked down to 1 per list? How many captains can you fit in a Space marine list, but we can only take 1 of each type?
It’s not 1 per army, it’s 1 of each type per detachment. That’s pretty liberal by Ork standards.
How many detachments do you plan on taking in a Custodes list? This isn't the Guard. It's a silly restriction given how Detachments work in the first place.
All armies are getting rules like that. It’s not unique to Custodes.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Are we the only faction in the game who's HQ choices are locked down to 1 per list? How many captains can you fit in a Space marine list, but we can only take 1 of each type?
It’s not 1 per army, it’s 1 of each type per detachment. That’s pretty liberal by Ork standards.
How many detachments do you plan on taking in a Custodes list? This isn't the Guard. It's a silly restriction given how Detachments work in the first place.
It's not that bad at all. We can take 3 different shield captains, trajann, valerian, knight Centura, aleya, blade master.
As also a DG player, when DG codex came out, we could take only 1 lord of death guard (that included daemon prince and even typhus) and malignant plaguecaster... you couldn't even fill the HQ slots in a battalion if my memory serves me right, until Faq allowed DPs alongside another lord of dg hq and plaguecaster.
As custodes, we are spoiled for choice compared to that.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Are we the only faction in the game who's HQ choices are locked down to 1 per list? How many captains can you fit in a Space marine list, but we can only take 1 of each type?
It’s not 1 per army, it’s 1 of each type per detachment. That’s pretty liberal by Ork standards.
How many detachments do you plan on taking in a Custodes list? This isn't the Guard. It's a silly restriction given how Detachments work in the first place.
All armies are getting rules like that. It’s not unique to Custodes.
I Don't mean to be sassy, but look at the original quoted question: What other factions have HQ restrictions like we do? You say ALL do. Please illustrate any non-character HQ restrictions. Guard can take multiple Company commanders, or Tank Commanders. SM can take multiple Captains. Eldar can take multiple Farseers. DG can take multiple, I'll be honest I don't know what their generic "captain" unit is. Champion? GK can take Multiple GMNDK.
Either change the way Custodes Detachments work, I.E stop forcing us to fill 2-3 slots, or just remove the restriction.
If we take a regular Shield Captain with a spear, can we still take Valaryian? Yes, because this is a dumb rule that was put into place to nerf our best list combinations.
Space marines: max 1 captain and 2 lts per detachment (and unlike ours, that is blanket over ALL captain/lt types, as its tied to the keywords not the datasheet, so Captain in Buzzword Armour and Captain with Left Handed Bolt Tightener are not allowed in same detachment)
Thousand Sons: max one deamon price per detachment.
Orks: one Warboss or speedboss per detachment
grey knights: max one Grand master and one Brother captain per detachment.
I have a question regarding the shadowkeepers fighting style: stance one says that if an enemy unit is within engagement range of a shadowkeepers unit, every model in the enemy unit gets - 1 attack.
Is that debuff cumulative if an enemy unit is within engagement range of two shadowkeepers units?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: . DG can take multiple, I'll be honest I don't know what their generic "captain" unit is. Champion?
They can take:
1 of Chaos lord/Lord of Virulence or Contagion/Typhus
1 Daemon Prince
1 Plaguecaster
you can also take Necrosius and Vulgrar (these don't really count as I don't think anyone played them, ever)
So, yeah, be happy we the "restrictions" we have as custodes
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Are we the only faction in the game who's HQ choices are locked down to 1 per list? How many captains can you fit in a Space marine list, but we can only take 1 of each type?
It’s not 1 per army, it’s 1 of each type per detachment. That’s pretty liberal by Ork standards.
How many detachments do you plan on taking in a Custodes list? This isn't the Guard. It's a silly restriction given how Detachments work in the first place.
All armies are getting rules like that. It’s not unique to Custodes.
I Don't mean to be sassy, but look at the original quoted question: What other factions have HQ restrictions like we do? You say ALL do. Please illustrate any non-character HQ restrictions. Guard can take multiple Company commanders, or Tank Commanders. SM can take multiple Captains. Eldar can take multiple Farseers. DG can take multiple, I'll be honest I don't know what their generic "captain" unit is. Champion? GK can take Multiple GMNDK.
Either change the way Custodes Detachments work, I.E stop forcing us to fill 2-3 slots, or just remove the restriction.
If we take a regular Shield Captain with a spear, can we still take Valaryian? Yes, because this is a dumb rule that was put into place to nerf our best list combinations.
iGuy91 wrote: Do you fellas think it would be worthwhile to create a new thread for the new dex? This one has probably run its course.
NGL, I am really torn. The Shield host abilities are all pretty awesome. I guess they all have a niche to base the army around.
Probably a good idea.
Gotta ask again though: anybody know if the shadowkeepers fighting style that gives - 1 attack to enemy models within engagement range is cumulative if that enemy unit is in engagement range of two shadowkeeper units?
Whats your choice for the Bladechampion if you want him to rumble the house?
I'm a bit unsure about my HQ choices, what do you guys think?
Shadowkeeper:
Whats your choice for the Bladechampion if you want him to rumble the house?
I'm a bit unsure about my HQ choices, what do you guys think?
Shadowkeeper:
Right bladechampion: imo there are two very potent builds:
First one is emperors chosen shield host with both the Auric Paragon and Peerless warrior warlord trait. That build is a total horde blender with his hurricanis profile. 20 attacks with additional mortal wounds on 6s to wound.
Second build is shadowkeepers with the lockwarden and peerless warrior warlord trait. Throw in the Stasis oubilette relic and there is almost no character in the game that wants to tangle with that blade champion. It's insane, especially at 110p.
Thairne wrote: We're closing in on 240 pages..
And this codex is vastly different from the one before.
So a new thread is in order imo.
I still maintain that captain Murderdeath is a good choice for now. You dont need a Blade Champion when everything is dead due to him first
Fair point about captain murderdeath, but the blade champion offers more consistency in that regard imo. AP4 and flat 3 dmg is just extremely valuable when you ignore invulns with the shadowkeepers Wl trait. Combine that with rerolling all wounds and MWs on 6s (with the additional peerless warrior Wl trait) for the best raw power against characters in our codex.
I still say Trajaaan is an Auto-take at this point. He's superdurable, and more dangerous than anything else we have, and his dual traits are fun. S10 AP4(with the right detachment) and D3 damage, he's pretty beefy. He can also get silly with the Shooting.
What will we call the new thread? Who's volunteering to create it? 1, 2, 3, NOT IT.
Audustum wrote: Can't Trajann take the 'ignore invulnerable WT' too? Since he can pick a second and can benefit from detachments?
No I don't think that's how it works. If you take him as your warlord he gets two warlord traits and those two are fixed.
Edit: which is kinda crazy actually. If you play Trajann and two other characters, you can effectively play a list with 5 warlord traits. Trajann gets 2, you can give your other two characters a warlord trait each and one of those can get one extra with the Victor of the bloodgames strat.
This book is herohammer incarnate.
Audustum wrote: Can't Trajann take the 'ignore invulnerable WT' too? Since he can pick a second and can benefit from detachments?
No I don't think that's how it works. If you take him as your warlord he gets two warlord traits and those two are fixed.
Edit: which is kinda crazy actually. If you play Trajann and two other characters, you can effectively play a list with 5 warlord traits. Trajann gets 2, you can give your other two characters a warlord trait each and one of those can get one extra with the Victor of the bloodgames strat.
This book is herohammer incarnate.
I'm glad at least that part of the Custodes codex they got right, considering they're all basically an army of born heroes. Nothing like tooled out HQ's basically each one-manning an entire flank against the enemy.
cuda1179 wrote: Dang it, dang it, dang it. I was hoping that with the leaked contents of the 30k box that our Contemptor would have gained a weapon option or two. Sadly it did not. We can keep our fingers crossed that they FAQ in the options when the new model arrives.
I must have missed that one, what weapons are being added to the FW Dreads?
None, but the preview showed what appeared to be the plastic contemptor but with a weapons fit not on the plastic kit, implying they were going to add extra guns to non relic contemptor (ie the version we have)
Oh neat, didn't know they were making plastic Contemptors. Well if mine ever break it'll be good to know there's an easier to work with plastic version available.
cuda1179 wrote: Dang it, dang it, dang it. I was hoping that with the leaked contents of the 30k box that our Contemptor would have gained a weapon option or two. Sadly it did not. We can keep our fingers crossed that they FAQ in the options when the new model arrives.
I must have missed that one, what weapons are being added to the FW Dreads?
None, but the preview showed what appeared to be the plastic contemptor but with a weapons fit not on the plastic kit, implying they were going to add extra guns to non relic contemptor (ie the version we have)
Oh neat, didn't know they were making plastic Contemptors. Well if mine ever break it'll be good to know there's an easier to work with plastic version available.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Why does a torn-up road sign wielded by a mutated alien/human hybrid cause more damage than a Guardian Spear?
Because in the grimdarkness of the future there is only damage 3 for hammer-looking weapons unless they're relics or on special characters? I'm just as confused as you are.
cuda1179 wrote: Dang it, dang it, dang it. I was hoping that with the leaked contents of the 30k box that our Contemptor would have gained a weapon option or two. Sadly it did not. We can keep our fingers crossed that they FAQ in the options when the new model arrives.
I must have missed that one, what weapons are being added to the FW Dreads?
None, but the preview showed what appeared to be the plastic contemptor but with a weapons fit not on the plastic kit, implying they were going to add extra guns to non relic contemptor (ie the version we have)
Oh neat, didn't know they were making plastic Contemptors. Well if mine ever break it'll be good to know there's an easier to work with plastic version available.
It would have at least given us the options of a twin autocannon and a cyclone missile launcher. Frankly, with the Custodes shortcomings on long-range anti tank I would have welcomed the Cyclone launcher.
Thairne wrote: We're closing in on 240 pages..
And this codex is vastly different from the one before.
So a new thread is in order imo.
I still maintain that captain Murderdeath is a good choice for now. You dont need a Blade Champion when everything is dead due to him first
Fair point about captain murderdeath, but the blade champion offers more consistency in that regard imo. AP4 and flat 3 dmg is just extremely valuable when you ignore invulns with the shadowkeepers Wl trait. Combine that with rerolling all wounds and MWs on 6s (with the additional peerless warrior Wl trait) for the best raw power against characters in our codex.
Also fair enough. I think the Bladechampion has more damage going for him whereas the Praetorian Plate Captain has Durability (which is not that important) but another type of consistency going for it. You can jump into any combat, so if you end up on the wrong flank to where you want him to be, just YEET over there! I thnk if you KNOW you'll not face -1D Characters, Id chose the captain. If you are not sure, Bladechampion is the way to go.
What makes the praetorian plate cap so nasty is because he is not heroically intervening, so your opponent cannot attack him that first turn he pops in on a charger.
That comboed with Unstopable destroyer potentially letting him move 8" when he pops in around the flank of a larger unit (causing them to not be able to pile in where they want), means you really mess up the enemies plans.
Eihnlazer wrote: What makes the praetorian plate cap so nasty is because he is not heroically intervening, so your opponent cannot attack him that first turn he pops in on a charger.
That comboed with Unstopable destroyer potentially letting him move 8" when he pops in around the flank of a larger unit (causing them to not be able to pile in where they want), means you really mess up the enemies plans.
True, allarus captain with praetorian plate is something that will probably see play.
You could put all of that in one glorious shadowkeeper list though:
-Pick Trajann as your warlord. He gets 2 WL traits.
-Pay 4CP to give 2 extra warlord traits, one victor of the blood games and one extra relic.
-Pick an Allarus Captain with praetorian plate and superior creation for a T6, 4++ and 5+++ chonky guy that can YEET himself across the battlefield.
-Pick a Blade Champ with Lockwarden and Peerless Warrior WL trait. Throw in the stasis oubilette for good measure and voila: you also have the deadliest generic character in the entire game.
Is all that worth 4cp? Probably not, but I'm so gonna do it anyway.
Edit: don't wanna go shadowkeepers? No problem, do the same thing but go emperors chosen and give your blade champ the Auric Paragon and Peerless Warrior WL trait for a 110p character that can mulch his way through basically any horde unit.
You can even spend 1 CP for the esteemed amalgam strat to put the horde mulcher blade champ into the dread host fighting style to give his hurricanis profile -2AP, which is huge.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Are we the only faction in the game who's HQ choices are locked down to 1 per list? How many captains can you fit in a Space marine list, but we can only take 1 of each type?
It’s not 1 per army, it’s 1 of each type per detachment. That’s pretty liberal by Ork standards.
How many detachments do you plan on taking in a Custodes list? This isn't the Guard. It's a silly restriction given how Detachments work in the first place.
It's not that bad at all. We can take 3 different shield captains, trajann, valerian, knight Centura, aleya, blade master.
As also a DG player, when DG codex came out, we could take only 1 lord of death guard (that included daemon prince and even typhus) and malignant plaguecaster... you couldn't even fill the HQ slots in a battalion if my memory serves me right, until Faq allowed DPs alongside another lord of dg hq and plaguecaster.
As custodes, we are spoiled for choice compared to that.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Are we the only faction in the game who's HQ choices are locked down to 1 per list? How many captains can you fit in a Space marine list, but we can only take 1 of each type?
It’s not 1 per army, it’s 1 of each type per detachment. That’s pretty liberal by Ork standards.
How many detachments do you plan on taking in a Custodes list? This isn't the Guard. It's a silly restriction given how Detachments work in the first place.
It's not that bad at all. We can take 3 different shield captains, trajann, valerian, knight Centura, aleya, blade master.
As also a DG player, when DG codex came out, we could take only 1 lord of death guard (that included daemon prince and even typhus) and malignant plaguecaster... you couldn't even fill the HQ slots in a battalion if my memory serves me right, until Faq allowed DPs alongside another lord of dg hq and plaguecaster.
As custodes, we are spoiled for choice compared to that.
I mean it feths my for fun all bikes list
You can still go pure bikes if you really want. And with 1 troops unit tax, you can have 2 bikes caps in it too.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Are we the only faction in the game who's HQ choices are locked down to 1 per list? How many captains can you fit in a Space marine list, but we can only take 1 of each type?
It’s not 1 per army, it’s 1 of each type per detachment. That’s pretty liberal by Ork standards.
How many detachments do you plan on taking in a Custodes list? This isn't the Guard. It's a silly restriction given how Detachments work in the first place.
It's not that bad at all. We can take 3 different shield captains, trajann, valerian, knight Centura, aleya, blade master.
As also a DG player, when DG codex came out, we could take only 1 lord of death guard (that included daemon prince and even typhus) and malignant plaguecaster... you couldn't even fill the HQ slots in a battalion if my memory serves me right, until Faq allowed DPs alongside another lord of dg hq and plaguecaster.
As custodes, we are spoiled for choice compared to that.
I mean it feths my for fun all bikes list
You can still go pure bikes if you really want. And with 1 troops unit tax, you can have 2 bikes caps in it too.
you only get 19 bikes in one detachment since you can only take 1 captain and they capped bike squads at 6 now, and can't get any more bikes because of the rule of 3. Which is under 2k points.
The way to go around this is forgeworld bikes, but, mate, let me tell you, forgeworld bikes are some of the WORST product forgeworld has ever put out from a hobbyist perspective. Finicky, prone to bending, and extraordinarily difficult to put together. I would not recommend anyone get them.
you only get 19 bikes in one detachment since you can only take 1 captain and they capped bike squads at 6 now, and can't get any more bikes because of the rule of 3. Which is under 2k points.
The way to go around this is forgeworld bikes, but, mate, let me tell you, forgeworld bikes are some of the WORST product forgeworld has ever put out from a hobbyist perspective. Finicky, prone to bending, and extraordinarily difficult to put together. I would not recommend anyone get them.
The point is, you can still go pure bikes if you really want
The main decision to make here is whether I grab a bunch of Sisters or not for anti-psychic stuff but I kinda feel like any list that has psykers is just gonna mow down the T3 sisters before they get into range with their auras. The first list just goes heavy on the classic Trajann deathstar supported by some faster moving elements.
I'm also still on the fence about using dreadnoughts now since we can't get them re-rolls anymore and they're no longer protected by Vexillas.
the gist with sisters is less the anti psycher shenanigans, tthough that is nice
the main use for them is as cheap objective holders that can perform actions as well.
Something custodes REALLY struggled before.
And now they can do it with obsec and "for free" aka you dont give up elite slots.
For that reason alone,having 2 squads of prosecutors, is a good idea imo. Not more, because you want to minimize troops.
you only get 19 bikes in one detachment since you can only take 1 captain and they capped bike squads at 6 now, and can't get any more bikes because of the rule of 3. Which is under 2k points.
The way to go around this is forgeworld bikes, but, mate, let me tell you, forgeworld bikes are some of the WORST product forgeworld has ever put out from a hobbyist perspective. Finicky, prone to bending, and extraordinarily difficult to put together. I would not recommend anyone get them.
The point is, you can still go pure bikes if you really want
you only get 19 bikes in one detachment since you can only take 1 captain and they capped bike squads at 6 now, and can't get any more bikes because of the rule of 3. Which is under 2k points.
The way to go around this is forgeworld bikes, but, mate, let me tell you, forgeworld bikes are some of the WORST product forgeworld has ever put out from a hobbyist perspective. Finicky, prone to bending, and extraordinarily difficult to put together. I would not recommend anyone get them.
The point is, you can still go pure bikes if you really want
Again, not in any realistic fashion
The fact is, if you want, you can make a pure bike list. If you don't want to do that, that's a different matter, and your choice. I'm not going to argue with your choices
