4W Custodian Guard kinda leave me in a weird place... on one hand, 4W protect you against all that 3D and D3 weapons out there and it is HUGE to have basically doubled survivability against those.
Then again, 4W do nothing when your opponent planned for marines, since you'll just die as fast to 2D weapons as before.
5W Terminators however... oh boy. Those are some tanky bois. There is nothing that is efficient in taking those down.

I've been saying this for months now. +1 wound for all our Infantry and bikers is very much needed and chances are that we'll get exactly that.
We'll lose our +1 invuln if battleforged ability, but I am betting that aegis of the emperor just going to get bumped from a 5++ to a flat 4++, thus making the +1 invuln bonus superfluous.

Axes will for sure become flat 3 dmg and according to some reddit leaks, spears will also be flat 3 dmg, though I'm sceptical about that still.

Flat 3 spears seems a little too optimistic. My money is on d2.

4w custodes is... Acceptable. especially if it keeps our points from getting too bonkers. So many d3 weapons out there, that would make a difference. However, it wouldn't change our vulnerability to d2...

Is a ranged weapon option for terminators out of the question?

Keep in mind, 4W does make a difference when not every weapon thrown against you is D2. Remaining with 2W after the last D2 weapon still leaves you with needing to fail 2 saves against a D1 weapon instead of 1. Plus, I'd assume the Allarus dudes would end up with 5W.

If they give Custodes a flat 4++ then what would be the point in taking storm shields? My biggest hope (for what it's worth since I'm super new to Custodes and haven't even gotten a game in yet) would be that the wargear options are to some extent internally balanced. It's always a shame looking at an army and realizing 1 of the 3 or so weapon options is the clear, universally superior choice.

Iggy88 wrote:
Keep in mind, 4W does make a difference when not every weapon thrown against you is D2. Remaining with 2W after the last D2 weapon still leaves you with needing to fail 2 saves against a D1 weapon instead of 1. Plus, I'd assume the Allarus dudes would end up with 5W.

If they give Custodes a flat 4++ then what would be the point in taking storm shields? My biggest hope (for what it's worth since I'm super new to Custodes and haven't even gotten a game in yet) would be that the wargear options are to some extent internally balanced. It's always a shame looking at an army and realizing 1 of the 3 or so weapon options is the clear, universally superior choice.

First off, +1 Armor Saves.

Second off, GW could make "Custodes Storm Shields" instead of regular ones that give a 3++, or a 4+++ against MW, or whatever they want.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Iggy88 wrote:
Keep in mind, 4W does make a difference when not every weapon thrown against you is D2. Remaining with 2W after the last D2 weapon still leaves you with needing to fail 2 saves against a D1 weapon instead of 1. Plus, I'd assume the Allarus dudes would end up with 5W.

If they give Custodes a flat 4++ then what would be the point in taking storm shields? My biggest hope (for what it's worth since I'm super new to Custodes and haven't even gotten a game in yet) would be that the wargear options are to some extent internally balanced. It's always a shame looking at an army and realizing 1 of the 3 or so weapon options is the clear, universally superior choice.

First off, +1 Armor Saves.

Second off, GW could make "Custodes Storm Shields" instead of regular ones that give a 3++, or a 4+++ against MW, or whatever they want.

I agree, custodes stormshields will likely just get some other additional buff instead of the 3++. And +1 save is still a very useful buff in addition.

I'm somewhat optimistic that we'll see at least something previewed next week.

I doubt we will keep the shields with 3++ So I hope they make the Stormshields -1 to hit or wound, like the galatus shield.

 nordsturmking wrote:
I doubt we will keep the shields with 3++ So I hope they make the Stormshields -1 to hit or wound, like the galatus shield.

-1 to-wound would be rather much, don'tcha think?

That would mean a Sisters of Battle Bolter would need 216 shots to kill a single Shield Guard at W4.

4 failed saves
24 wounds
144 hits
216 shots

I mean, yes, you're not supposed to take down Custodes with bolters... But when you need just shy of 300 points of Sisters all within 12" of a single squad to do ONE WOUND... That's pretty mean.

+1 armor save isn't nothing, but when you compare it to the other weapon options, it's not nearly worth the points if it's not also doing something else.

It seems like GW is straying away from 3++ and my guess is the army won't have a flat 4++ but a 5++ instead with some other battleforged buff. Then, the shields would give you 1+/4++ vs the 2+/5++ you'd have otherwise.

Iggy88 wrote:
+1 armor save isn't nothing, but when you compare it to the other weapon options, it's not nearly worth the points if it's not also doing something else.

It seems like GW is straying away from 3++ and my guess is the army won't have a flat 4++ but a 5++ instead with some other battleforged buff. Then, the shields would give you 1+/4++ vs the 2+/5++ you'd have otherwise.

Well, we all know that GW will surely make sure all existing options are well-balanced with one another, right?

...

Right guys?

 JNAProductions wrote:

 nordsturmking wrote:
I doubt we will keep the shields with 3++ So I hope they make the Stormshields -1 to hit or wound, like the galatus shield.

-1 to-wound would be rather much, don'tcha think?

That would mean a Sisters of Battle Bolter would need 216 shots to kill a single Shield Guard at W4.

4 failed saves
24 wounds
144 hits
216 shots

I mean, yes, you're not supposed to take down Custodes with bolters... But when you need just shy of 300 points of Sisters all within 12" of a single squad to do ONE WOUND... That's pretty mean.

-1 to wound would be bonkers and introduce another problem of internal balance: nobody would ever take the spears....again. I want them to be finally viable.

-1 to hit in melee like the Galatus shield is nice, but with the stupid cap to modifiers, it's just not a very valuable rule...

No re-rolls to hit against our storm shields would be something I can get behind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Iggy88 wrote:
+1 armor save isn't nothing, but when you compare it to the other weapon options, it's not nearly worth the points if it's not also doing something else.

It seems like GW is straying away from 3++ and my guess is the army won't have a flat 4++ but a 5++ instead with some other battleforged buff. Then, the shields would give you 1+/4++ vs the 2+/5++ you'd have otherwise.

Yeah I don't think they can take away our 4++ and just give us one extra wound. We'd need some ridiculous additional buff to make up for losing the 4++.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Iggy88 wrote:
+1 armor save isn't nothing, but when you compare it to the other weapon options, it's not nearly worth the points if it's not also doing something else.

It seems like GW is straying away from 3++ and my guess is the army won't have a flat 4++ but a 5++ instead with some other battleforged buff. Then, the shields would give you 1+/4++ vs the 2+/5++ you'd have otherwise.

Well, we all know that GW will surely make sure all existing options are well-balanced with one another, right?

...

Right guys?

No, I know. But I can hope.

I think the idea that they'll get a flat 4++ is too optimistic. The rumor says they'll lose the +1 invul, so I don't see that implying they'll get a flat 4++ and lose the +1.

Even if we loose the +1 invun the terminators are gonna stay at a 4++ since everyone's cataphracti terminator armor is at a 4++ (DG, TS, relic marine).

Not sure what they will do for the bikes though, as if they go down to a 5++, even with a +1 wound buff, they would still be pretty overcosted.

I mean, if they cut the +1 to ++ saves and gives us one more wound, then custodes won't feel like demi-gods and they should. I think GW feels likewise.

im not even sure flat 4++ and another wound would be as tough as the current rules. sword n board guys do feel rather godlike but dont have much utility apart from being hard to remove. one pistol shot and 3 s5 attacks is rather miserable in any meta but especially in this one.

Our terminators have 4++ and 4w and we all know how they melt to serious fire. So maybe we'll be another -1 dam army? How would the layering of 4++ and 5+++ work for our dudes? I dont see that happening, though, as they got rid of all that dice rolling with the DG codes. Reintroduing it for another army would be weird.

I don't see us getting any major changes to Invuln, but I could see them saying we have a "Jink" mechanic in the form of a strat, -2 to hit if the unit made a move of at least 7", including charge, pile in, movement, and Heroic intervention. Say 2cp. That would give us viability to keep moving and not just sit on objectives and win.

well, it would also be against the intrinsic mechanics of ninth with to hit mods capping out at -1 so I wouldn't count on that solution.

also, why seven inches and why such a convoluted wording with pile in, charge, heroic? I want leaner text in 40k. not more complicated wordings.

I'll be honest, I don't see GW keeping our Telemon the top dog in the future. GW seems lazer focused on making 9th a Infantry vs infantry game. I see bikes getting a nerf as well.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I'll be honest, I don't see GW keeping our Telemon the top dog in the future. GW seems lazer focused on making 9th a Infantry vs infantry game. I see bikes getting a nerf as well.

Oh lighten up and stop it with your doom and gloom about or new codex all the time. All 9th ed codices have recieved some buffs, so let's try and stay optimistic until we know for a fact our book sucks and everything got nerfed, I'll join you in complaining then.

So the previous leak of a GSC vs Custodes release with a new Custodes lieutenant has been somewhat confirmed by a leak of the actual custodes model. Does this basically then cement the other leaks then? Losing 3++, +1W, etc.

 mrhappyface wrote:
So the previous leak of a GSC vs Custodes release with a new Custodes lieutenant has been somewhat confirmed by a leak of the actual custodes model. Does this basically then cement the other leaks then? Losing 3++, +1W, etc.

I doubt those leaks were anything of substance. But the box set may be confirmed perhaps.

 iGuy91 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
So the previous leak of a GSC vs Custodes release with a new Custodes lieutenant has been somewhat confirmed by a leak of the actual custodes model. Does this basically then cement the other leaks then? Losing 3++, +1W, etc.

I doubt those leaks were anything of substance. But the box set may be confirmed perhaps.

Whatever happens I think it's fair to assume that come Saturday and warhammer fest, we'll at least know if the GSC vs Custodes box is legit or not.

As for the reddit leaks about our codex contents: I'm with iguy there...I'll believe those if I actually see them in the codex.

If the "leaked" image of the Custodes mini turns out to be legit, I'll be a happy cat I think, because the pose looks kinda cool and I wanted to see a custodian with a two handed sword for a long time anyway.

Tiberias wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
So the previous leak of a GSC vs Custodes release with a new Custodes lieutenant has been somewhat confirmed by a leak of the actual custodes model. Does this basically then cement the other leaks then? Losing 3++, +1W, etc.

I doubt those leaks were anything of substance. But the box set may be confirmed perhaps.

Whatever happens I think it's fair to assume that come Saturday and warhammer fest, we'll at least know if the GSC vs Custodes box is legit or not.

As for the reddit leaks about our codex contents: I'm with iguy there...I'll believe those if I actually see them in the codex.

If the "leaked" image of the Custodes mini turns out to be legit, I'll be a happy cat I think, because the pose looks kinda cool and I wanted to see a custodian with a two handed sword for a long time anyway.

auspex has just done a vid on it, and he points out that it matches a GW silhouette form the reveal banner almost perfectly, if form a very slightly different angle. so, yhea, i'd say hes legit our new custodes "lieutenant" model. I hope to god hes not fluffed as a lieutenant, because thats pretty against how the Ten Thousand operate (being a very flat command structure because custodes are too elite to need junior leaders, etc), but he might be more of a champion/duellist, which i can see working.

xerxeskingofking wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
So the previous leak of a GSC vs Custodes release with a new Custodes lieutenant has been somewhat confirmed by a leak of the actual custodes model. Does this basically then cement the other leaks then? Losing 3++, +1W, etc.

I doubt those leaks were anything of substance. But the box set may be confirmed perhaps.

Whatever happens I think it's fair to assume that come Saturday and warhammer fest, we'll at least know if the GSC vs Custodes box is legit or not.

As for the reddit leaks about our codex contents: I'm with iguy there...I'll believe those if I actually see them in the codex.

If the "leaked" image of the Custodes mini turns out to be legit, I'll be a happy cat I think, because the pose looks kinda cool and I wanted to see a custodian with a two handed sword for a long time anyway.

auspex has just done a vid on it, and he points out that it matches a GW silhouette form the reveal banner almost perfectly, if form a very slightly different angle. so, yhea, i'd say hes legit our new custodes "lieutenant" model. I hope to god hes not fluffed as a lieutenant, because thats pretty against how the Ten Thousand operate (being a very flat command structure because custodes are too elite to need junior leaders, etc), but he might be more of a champion/duellist, which i can see working.

I think the leaks just called him a "lieutenant" for lack of a better word or description. Call me gullible but I still have enough faith in GW for them not to call one of the ten thousand a lieutenant.
Based on the pose I agree that he seems like some champion/duellist like you said. Forget for a second if we need such a thing competitively.....I want it.

I dunno, he looks like a basic custodian with a sword in a special mono-pose. I really don't see the point of a single sword model HQ/Elite unit. It's basically a completely pointless unit. Unless this thing hits like a mini-Belakor, he might be kinda useless in melee. Maybe they come with the ability to insert into larger units? I don't see the point of single model units for our army. Hey, maybe the GSC/C box set will only be 9 models, 8 GSC guys and one of these. That would be hilarious.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I dunno, he looks like a basic custodian with a sword in a special mono-pose. I really don't see the point of a single sword model HQ/Elite unit. It's basically a completely pointless unit. Unless this thing hits like a mini-Belakor, he might be kinda useless in melee. Maybe they come with the ability to insert into larger units? I don't see the point of single model units for our army. Hey, maybe the GSC/C box set will only be 9 models, 8 GSC guys and one of these. That would be hilarious.

Don't be such a downer, we literally don't know anything about that new model. He might not be a melee beatstick at all, but more of a buffing character who gives our other guys boni to advance and/or charge. Seems to me like you only have negative outlooks towards our 9th ed update, why? There is no indicator whatsoever that we'll somehow get a worse treatment than other factions who already got a new codex.

Because GW has treated the entire community like a fething Actiblizz Live service, where they can dangle crap that has already been done, or at worst is just a reprint of 8ths version, and drip feed it to us, then wrap it in FOMO, then overcharge it.

But sure, be excited for the literal manifestation of the joke/meme that people have been using to knock GW's model releases for the last three years. We GOT A NEW LT model! /q

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Because GW has treated the entire community like a fething Actiblizz Live service, where they can dangle crap that has already been done, or at worst is just a reprint of 8ths version, and drip feed it to us, then wrap it in FOMO, then overcharge it.

But sure, be excited for the literal manifestation of the joke/meme that people have been using to knock GW's model releases for the last three years. We GOT A NEW LT model! /q

I'm sorry you feel that way. If have such a negative experience with GW and the hobby, maybe you would benefit from taking a break from 40k for a little bit. I honestly don't mean that in any condescending way, but most of your posts in this thread for quite some time now have been you worrying about us getting a bad codex or no codex at all and that can't be healthy.

I'm not implying btw that GW is such a shiny example of a customer friendly company, but I don't think they are this evil, mustache twirling villain either like some make them out to be.
Would I like to see more new releases for us than "just" a new character? Yes, sure. But I can still be happy about a (hopefully) cool new model for our bananaboys.

Edit: just to get this clear, I'm also not implying that you can't or shouldn't be critical of GW or any other company for that matter, but it shouldn't dampen your enjoyment of the hobby in such a way that it's the main thing you associate with it.

 mrhappyface wrote:
So the previous leak of a GSC vs Custodes release with a new Custodes lieutenant has been somewhat confirmed by a leak of the actual custodes model. Does this basically then cement the other leaks then? Losing 3++, +1W, etc.

Just to be clear, you're talking about two separate sets of rumors.
The one that predicted a GSC vs Custodes box would exist (with a new character for each) is from a set of leaks covering GWs release schedule, which has proven to be highly accurate over the past couple of months.
However the rumors that predicted the stat changes have totally unknown reliability. It's quite possibly just someones wishlisting. We won't know whether any of it is accurate until GW releases articles with details that coincide with or contradict some of its claims.

Tiberias wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Because GW has treated the entire community like a fething Actiblizz Live service, where they can dangle crap that has already been done, or at worst is just a reprint of 8ths version, and drip feed it to us, then wrap it in FOMO, then overcharge it.

But sure, be excited for the literal manifestation of the joke/meme that people have been using to knock GW's model releases for the last three years. We GOT A NEW LT model! /q

I'm sorry you feel that way. If have such a negative experience with GW and the hobby, maybe you would benefit from taking a break from 40k for a little bit. I honestly don't mean that in any condescending way, but most of your posts in this thread for quite some time now have been you worrying about us getting a bad codex or no codex at all and that can't be healthy.

I'm not implying btw that GW is such a shiny example of a customer friendly company, but I don't think they are this evil, mustache twirling villain either like some make them out to be.
Would I like to see more new releases for us than "just" a new character? Yes, sure. But I can still be happy about a (hopefully) cool new model for our bananaboys.

Edit: just to get this clear, I'm also not implying that you can't or shouldn't be critical of GW or any other company for that matter, but it shouldn't dampen your enjoyment of the hobby in such a way that it's the main thing you associate with it.

Awesome, it's the patented "If you don't like the hobby, then leave" post. I did leave. I went to AoS. And it was much better, until GW dropped 3.0 and then refused to actually print copies of the new book that is required to play, and put the app with warscrolls behind a paywall. 9th is essentially the same. Now I'm being told "Rejoice! We are getting a new model!" And it's a LT!

I am honestly not sure why you are the complaint police all of the sudden. Every time I bash GW you show up and claim I'm over reacting. I fully admit I've been hyperbolic to an extreme in the past, but this is silly.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Because GW has treated the entire community like a fething Actiblizz Live service, where they can dangle crap that has already been done, or at worst is just a reprint of 8ths version, and drip feed it to us, then wrap it in FOMO, then overcharge it.

But sure, be excited for the literal manifestation of the joke/meme that people have been using to knock GW's model releases for the last three years. We GOT A NEW LT model! /q

I'm sorry you feel that way. If have such a negative experience with GW and the hobby, maybe you would benefit from taking a break from 40k for a little bit. I honestly don't mean that in any condescending way, but most of your posts in this thread for quite some time now have been you worrying about us getting a bad codex or no codex at all and that can't be healthy.

I'm not implying btw that GW is such a shiny example of a customer friendly company, but I don't think they are this evil, mustache twirling villain either like some make them out to be.
Would I like to see more new releases for us than "just" a new character? Yes, sure. But I can still be happy about a (hopefully) cool new model for our bananaboys.

Edit: just to get this clear, I'm also not implying that you can't or shouldn't be critical of GW or any other company for that matter, but it shouldn't dampen your enjoyment of the hobby in such a way that it's the main thing you associate with it.

Awesome, it's the patented "If you don't like the hobby, then leave" post. I did leave. I went to AoS. And it was much better, until GW dropped 3.0 and then refused to actually print copies of the new book that is required to play, and put the app with warscrolls behind a paywall. 9th is essentially the same. Now I'm being told "Rejoice! We are getting a new model!" And it's a LT!

I am honestly not sure why you are the complaint police all of the sudden. Every time I bash GW you show up and claim I'm over reacting. I fully admit I've been hyperbolic to an extreme in the past, but this is silly.

I don't think you fully read my post. I clearly did not phrase it in the way you describe it and I even clarified as much.

Tiberias wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Because GW has treated the entire community like a fething Actiblizz Live service, where they can dangle crap that has already been done, or at worst is just a reprint of 8ths version, and drip feed it to us, then wrap it in FOMO, then overcharge it.

But sure, be excited for the literal manifestation of the joke/meme that people have been using to knock GW's model releases for the last three years. We GOT A NEW LT model! /q

I'm sorry you feel that way. If have such a negative experience with GW and the hobby, maybe you would benefit from taking a break from 40k for a little bit. I honestly don't mean that in any condescending way, but most of your posts in this thread for quite some time now have been you worrying about us getting a bad codex or no codex at all and that can't be healthy.

I'm not implying btw that GW is such a shiny example of a customer friendly company, but I don't think they are this evil, mustache twirling villain either like some make them out to be.
Would I like to see more new releases for us than "just" a new character? Yes, sure. But I can still be happy about a (hopefully) cool new model for our bananaboys.

Edit: just to get this clear, I'm also not implying that you can't or shouldn't be critical of GW or any other company for that matter, but it shouldn't dampen your enjoyment of the hobby in such a way that it's the main thing you associate with it.

Awesome, it's the patented "If you don't like the hobby, then leave" post. I did leave. I went to AoS. And it was much better, until GW dropped 3.0 and then refused to actually print copies of the new book that is required to play, and put the app with warscrolls behind a paywall. 9th is essentially the same. Now I'm being told "Rejoice! We are getting a new model!" And it's a LT!

I am honestly not sure why you are the complaint police all of the sudden. Every time I bash GW you show up and claim I'm over reacting. I fully admit I've been hyperbolic to an extreme in the past, but this is silly.

I don't think you fully read my post. I clearly did not phrase it in the way you describe it and I even clarified as much.

@Tiberias just igonre him.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I dunno, he looks like a basic custodian with a sword in a special mono-pose. I really don't see the point of a single sword model HQ/Elite unit. It's basically a completely pointless unit. Unless this thing hits like a mini-Belakor, he might be kinda useless in melee. Maybe they come with the ability to insert into larger units? I don't see the point of single model units for our army. Hey, maybe the GSC/C box set will only be 9 models, 8 GSC guys and one of these. That would be hilarious.

Dude, why are you always so pessimistic? Ive noticed that you always take the worst case stance on every subject on these boards. Those are crazy judgements based on zero information. We have a lo res picture of something and you already hate it? thats hilarious, actually.

Finally:

"Codex: Adeptus Custodes

The Shadow Throne box also contains Sisters of Silence. That’s because the new Codex: Adeptus Custodes combines the Talons of the Emperor into one book, adding the psyker-killing power of the Silent Sisters to your Shield Host."

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/10/30/warhammer-day-2021-take-the-fight-to-terra-itself-with-the-next-battle-box-and-codexes-for-warhammer-40000/

And they said in the stream:
Custodes are getting chapter tactic like army wide rules for the shield hosts.

 nordsturmking wrote:
Finally:

"Codex: Adeptus Custodes

The Shadow Throne box also contains Sisters of Silence. That’s because the new Codex: Adeptus Custodes combines the Talons of the Emperor into one book, adding the psyker-killing power of the Silent Sisters to your Shield Host."

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/10/30/warhammer-day-2021-take-the-fight-to-terra-itself-with-the-next-battle-box-and-codexes-for-warhammer-40000/

And they said in the stream:
Custodes are getting chapter tactic like army wide rules for the shield hosts.

Nice! What do you all think about the new model? I like the pose and especially the fuckhuge sword. Not that keen on the helmet though I must say. Also seems like he's going to be a melee blender character with three combat styles to choose from each combat.

Tiberias wrote:

 nordsturmking wrote:
Finally:

"Codex: Adeptus Custodes

The Shadow Throne box also contains Sisters of Silence. That’s because the new Codex: Adeptus Custodes combines the Talons of the Emperor into one book, adding the psyker-killing power of the Silent Sisters to your Shield Host."

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/10/30/warhammer-day-2021-take-the-fight-to-terra-itself-with-the-next-battle-box-and-codexes-for-warhammer-40000/

And they said in the stream:
Custodes are getting chapter tactic like army wide rules for the shield hosts.

Nice! What do you all think about the new model? I like the pose and especially the fuckhuge sword. Not that keen on the helmet though I must say. Also seems like he's going to be a melee blender character with three combat styles to choose from each combat.

I like the two handed sword but i don't like how he is so lightly armored. And the helm i am not sure wether i like it or not. I'll see hoe he looks with a warden helmet on.

Why didn't they call the book talons of the emperor, when it has sisters and custodes in it?

I don't see any reason to actually get the model. You can make a convincing conversion from a shield captain.

super cool. but.. is he a one off kinda lieutenant dude or will we be able to buy them squad wise in multiples?

Scoundrel80 wrote:
super cool. but.. is he a one off kinda lieutenant dude or will we be able to buy them squad wise in multiples?

They described him as a character who can use multiple fighting styles to chop up different targets. So I guess he's just going to be a lone character unit.

the exact wording is "who can switch between three different fighting styles to chop up any opponent, be they a colossal monster, a skilled leader, or a swarm of lesser creature", which indeed implies three profiles optimised for different targets. Im guessing a "sweep" syle with extra attacks, and a "stab" style with high damage and/or re-rolling wounds vs MONSTER or TITANIC threats.

the anti leader one might be intresting, theirs a lot of fun affects you could give this champion to mess with enemy characters. maybe a anti-aura debuff? enemy characters in engagement range do not grant their auras because they are too busy trying not to die? that would be Cool

Also confirmed was a stand alone Sisters of Silence HQ choice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Does anyone else find it weird that the new Lt. Model has a normal power sword instead of a Sentinel Blade?

 cuda1179 wrote:
Also confirmed was a stand alone Sisters of Silence HQ choice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Does anyone else find it weird that the new Lt. Model has a normal power sword instead of a Sentinel Blade?

nah, if they give him a standard sentinel blade, they are bound to the stat line of that blade, so its better to give him a "champion blade" with a different shape and whatever stats they wany.

So Custodes are finally gonna get some form of Bolter Discipline, right?

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
So Custodes are finally gonna get some form of Bolter Discipline, right?

thier getting...something. i think it will be subfaction/shield host bonus, ie if your whole force is Dread Host then you get X bonus, shadowkeepers get Y bonus, etc.

Is it true he's a named character? I think the Kirioth video mislabeled it? If its named then forget it being of value, because there can only ever be one on the field. If it's a unit choice, does that mean we can take squads or is it single model units?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Is it true he's a named character? I think the Kirioth video mislabeled it? If its named then forget it being of value, because there can only ever be one on the field. If it's a unit choice, does that mean we can take squads or is it single model units?

named? no, thats a mislabel, i believe the new GSC model is a named character though.


the champion is a single character unit, though. I'd wager hes an elite slot, very much like a lot of similar characters are. you could in theory have two or three of them if you really wanted i suppose, but its unlikely that would be a optimal way to run them.

I think it's one of those: you can assemble him as a named character or a generic version of the same type of dude.

So was the box confirmed? A squad of five sisters, one of these Elite guys, and 3 terminators? Did it show whether the sisters were sword or bolter?

Looks like the rumors about a Custodes / GSC box were correct. The new character sounds interesting, I'm glad we're getting a champion character instead of a flat Lieutenant clone, although the helm looks a little off.

Really hope we see plastic SoS in the future.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So was the box confirmed? A squad of five sisters, one of these Elite guys, and 3 terminators? Did it show whether the sisters were sword or bolter?

Really hope we see plastic SoS in the future.

you guys know their is a multi part, plastic sisters kit right now, dont you? its on the GW store, £30, 5 sister box with all 3 weapon options included.


however, i think i might need to change my original statement about the champ being elite. As you've just pointed out, fezzik, if hes elite, then that box set has no leaders and its not a viable army, which would be at odds with pretty much ever other vs box they have done, so this champ must be a HQ choice.


that said, if hes the HQ choice.....who are the troops? these boxes normally have 500 point army for each side, but since at 500 points, you can only take a patrol detachment.....does that mean sisters are going to be troops?!?

xerxeskingofking wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So was the box confirmed? A squad of five sisters, one of these Elite guys, and 3 terminators? Did it show whether the sisters were sword or bolter?

Really hope we see plastic SoS in the future.

you guys know their is a multi part, plastic sisters kit right now, dont you? its on the GW store, £30, 5 sister box with all 3 weapon options included.


however, i think i might need to change my original statement about the champ being elite. As you've just pointed out, fezzik, if hes elite, then that box set has no leaders and its not a viable army, which would be at odds with pretty much ever other vs box they have done, so this champ must be a HQ choice.


that said, if hes the HQ choice.....who are the troops? these boxes normally have 500 point army for each side, but since at 500 points, you can only take a patrol detachment.....does that mean sisters are going to be troops?!?

I've said this before some time ago, but my suspicion about sisters is this: they are going to be a troops choice, but with the same restriction as poxwalkers. So you can take one unit of sisters as troops for every custodes troop unit you have in your list.

The blade champion character will be a HQ in my opinion.

Unless... Terminators are now troops. How cool would that be?

Mad_Proctologist wrote:
Unless... Terminators are now troops. How cool would that be?

possible, i realised that after posting, and not entirely without precedent (grey knights, deathwing, deathwatch, etc). however, of the two units in, I would expect them to move Sisters to troops than allarus termies.

we will see.

I do suspect sisters will be troops. I also suspect for a number of reasons that the character will be an HQ. Termies being troops is a long shot but hardly unreasonable. It would certainly make for some epic looking custodes armies.

Oh I didn't realize there is finally a plastic sisters kit! That's great to know. I'm hoping they'll be a troop option in the future, I think the Poxwalker rule would be fair.

Has there been any word on when we can pre-order?

I really hope Wardens are given some reason to finally use them.

Without being too negative here is my break down of what limited facts we know:

Pros

- Multi-attack profiles are a good thing (Granted it's just for the single unit/model, but right direction) ((Smash profile would still be S10, ap3 flat 3, sweep would possibly be double attacks, ap3 S5 d3. Still aweseom))
- A New HQ choice is good for variety, as right know it's three types of SC or a Broken BL linked pair of models that almost never get used.
- Sisters featuring a more prominent role: this is great for fluff and table top. Sisters are a key part of what we need: Psyker defense.

Cons:

- Currently only new model is an HQ that the non named version will possibly be an Elite slot? Given our overflowing Elite section, I don't see this working out well. (Need confirmation on this as rumors are getting too thick)
- No reveals/updates about SoS HQ choice, unless they plan on doing like the SC from a box of Guardians, where you can make one of your models of a box of sisters (5) into the HQ choice, which in turn invalidates that box of sisters, because they need a minimum of 5 to field, so 90 USD to field the HQ and a 9 model squad of sisters.
- New model look: Not a big fan. The first time I saw it I literally thought it was one of the Autobots from the Transformers movies. It looks like Bumblebee with his face shield up. Also, is one pauldron smaller than the other?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/01/fight-for-the-fate-of-terra-with-the-two-incredibly-powerful-new-heroes-in-shadow-throne/

They've given the majority of the rules reveals for the Blade Champion in the latest Warcom article.

I feel like while he's versatile and has decent defensive stats (basically transhuman against hits rather than wound rolls), it's going to largely depend on his overall cost since his damage output is decent but not at a level where I think you'd take him since he's not mobile enough to be a consistent character or monster/vehicle hunter due being on foot and having to deal with all the -1D abilities flying about nowadays (outside of spending CP to deep strike him).

Also, really weird how they try making Ld11 for him to be a selling point somehow.

 Grimskul wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/01/fight-for-the-fate-of-terra-with-the-two-incredibly-powerful-new-heroes-in-shadow-throne/

They've given the majority of the rules reveals for the Blade Champion in the latest Warcom article.

I feel like while he's versatile and has decent defensive stats (basically transhuman against hits rather than wound rolls), it's going to largely depend on his overall cost since his damage output is decent but not at a level where I think you'd take him since he's not mobile enough to be a consistent character or monster/vehicle hunter due being on foot and having to deal with all the -1D abilities flying about nowadays (outside of spending CP to deep strike him).

Also, really weird how they try making Ld11 for him to be a selling point somehow.

The Drukhari fight last ability is based on a fail LT test so it is useful against those things.

I really like the idea of the 3 fighting styles and the to-hit transhuman is great. his other rules sound decent too. And he is not a named char so you can probably give him a WL and a relic.

I honestly like the rules. The fighting styles seem useful, but not overpowered.

I like the defensive rules. Hit rolls of 1-3 always failing is a cool new rule.

I like it.

I would like it alot more with 8 attacks as I feel that'd make his attacking profile a little less lacklustre, but other than that I like it.

100 points would be nice.

He's a neat little swiss army knife. But it's really going to come down to points and stats. Normal custodes state line with 6 wounds at 100 points seems viable but hardly auto include. For 120 you'd probably not see him much at all.

Six attacks against a vehicle, half will auto wound and the other 2 hits will cause on average 4/3 wounds for a total of 7 1/3 wounds. A sister with a multi melta, by comparison, will do just under 5 wounds, and you can buy at least 3 for the cost...
12 attacks against guardsmen with the mulch profile kills roughly 7 guardsmen...
The anti character one is a little harder to judge but will likely do the deed against anything that isn't a dedicated CC beast with a solid invul save.

And yeah leadership 11 seems odd, unless he is an HQ and can take a WL trait that shares his leadership. Still probably won't be the best choice. I'm thinking a swing and a miss here.

 Grimskul wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/01/fight-for-the-fate-of-terra-with-the-two-incredibly-powerful-new-heroes-in-shadow-throne/

They've given the majority of the rules reveals for the Blade Champion in the latest Warcom article.

I feel like while he's versatile and has decent defensive stats (basically transhuman against hits rather than wound rolls), it's going to largely depend on his overall cost since his damage output is decent but not at a level where I think you'd take him since he's not mobile enough to be a consistent character or monster/vehicle hunter due being on foot and having to deal with all the -1D abilities flying about nowadays (outside of spending CP to deep strike him).

Also, really weird how they try making Ld11 for him to be a selling point somehow.

Not really seeing the use of the third style? I mean, we basically can wound any characters on a 2+ now as is, what is the value of it? It would still take multiples of this guy to take down Morty or any DP if that's what they are thinking?

Also, agreed, LD 11 is pointless on a single model unit. Also, when have Custodians ever failed moral saves?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/01/fight-for-the-fate-of-terra-with-the-two-incredibly-powerful-new-heroes-in-shadow-throne/

They've given the majority of the rules reveals for the Blade Champion in the latest Warcom article.

I feel like while he's versatile and has decent defensive stats (basically transhuman against hits rather than wound rolls), it's going to largely depend on his overall cost since his damage output is decent but not at a level where I think you'd take him since he's not mobile enough to be a consistent character or monster/vehicle hunter due being on foot and having to deal with all the -1D abilities flying about nowadays (outside of spending CP to deep strike him).

Also, really weird how they try making Ld11 for him to be a selling point somehow.

Not really seeing the use of the third style? I mean, we basically can wound any characters on a 2+ now as is, what is the value of it? It would still take multiples of this guy to take down Morty or any DP if that's what they are thinking?

Also, agreed, LD 11 is pointless on a single model unit. Also, when have Custodians ever failed moral saves?

It's also very good against things like hive tyrants, tank commanders or big ork beastbosses.
Full rerolls wounds plus flat 3 dmg is quite nice to have against these things.
Also consider that he likely can get a warlord trait and relics. If the shadowkeepers warlord trait stays the same (-1 on all saves even invuln) then the new blade champion would become beyond terrifying for almost all characters.
Having 11 leadership is mostly a gimmick, but it's nice against certain psychic powers and weapons that roll against your Ld.

So given the cost of most Custodes Characters, and given he seems like a Character killer, would 150-175 be too high? Given his weapon profiles, damage and WL trait abilities, he seems like he would need to do some serious work. I mean unless this guy gets a bonkers stat line, M7 W7 A5, he's gonna have to do some work. And if he does get that sort of line, he may end up costing more than Trajann.

Would this guy be better than Trajann as the default character hunter? Would he be better than Terminators?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So given the cost of most Custodes Characters, and given he seems like a Character killer, would 150-175 be too high? Given his weapon profiles, damage and WL trait abilities, he seems like he would need to do some serious work. I mean unless this guy gets a bonkers stat line, M7 W7 A5, he's gonna have to do some work. And if he does get that sort of line, he may end up costing more than Trajann.

Would this guy be better than Trajann as the default character hunter? Would he be better than Terminators?

150-175 would be too high imo. He has 6 attacks base as per the warhammer community article, which is really quite good actually.

Will he be better than Trajann? As a character hunter....maybe, but we know absolutely nothing about Trajann as of now, so we'll just have to wait and see.

But we're off to a good start I think. I really like the blade champion. A small detail that's also really nice is his 6" heroic intervention and the fact that he always fights first.

150-175 is way too high, he's a cool character but I can't see why you'd ever take him over a bike captain, especially if our bike captains get a +1A/W, flat 2D, etc. He's a cool character but unless captains get a big nerf then it'll always be competing against one of the strongest characters in the game.

Well, if this guy has no DS inbuilt, and it costs 1CP to DS him, then he won't even start earning points back until turn 2, by which point his hunting options will be somewhat limited. This of course under the presumption that FGLTC stays the same.

Point being, a 165pt Bike Captain can start earning points turn 1, so can Trajann. I honestly don't see how a character with zero shooting,(Not confirmed yet?) can even start being effective until turn 2.

If he is a designed Character killer, he needs some form of baked in method of getting across the board quickly turn 1. That doesn't involve a 300point flyer.

Seems like a really fun character addition for the Custodes, I really enjoy the Consummate Swordsman ability and while I enjoy my captain on a Dawneagle Jetbike it will be nice to run him for a different change of pace, especially when facing Drazhar.

Honestly asking, we agree that this is a character killing unit right? What type of units would you try to throw it at? It can't take down DPs, or heavy T8 Characters, so like T4 characters? Librarians?

What is this unit's preferred target?

Also, has it been confirmed that it has no ranged weapon? I can't see any notes about one, or that it has one on it's pictures?

Yeah I don't think they can take away our 4++ and just give us one extra wound. We'd need some ridiculous additional buff to make up for losing the 4++.

I think they'll be 4 wounds, 2+, 5++, 5+++ against mortals. So they take away the 4++ but give custodes an extra wound and more resistance against mortals.

Hopefully they make storm shields available to more units. Allarus with storm shields and spears could be fun.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:Honestly asking, we agree that this is a character killing unit right? What type of units would you try to throw it at? It can't take down DPs, or heavy T8 Characters, so like T4 characters? Librarians?

What is this unit's preferred target?

Also, has it been confirmed that it has no ranged weapon? I can't see any notes about one, or that it has one on it's pictures?

He can take down high toughness stuff since he re rolls all wounds against characters. He won't take down morty or magnus, but it would be stupid if he did.
I think when kitted out with a relic and/or warlord trait, the blade champion will be a serious threat for most characters in the game.

Jarms48 wrote:

Yeah I don't think they can take away our 4++ and just give us one extra wound. We'd need some ridiculous additional buff to make up for losing the 4++.

I think they'll be 4 wounds, 2+, 5++, 5+++ against mortals. So they take away the 4++ but give custodes an extra wound and more resistance against mortals.

Hopefully they make storm shields available to more units. Allarus with storm shields and spears could be fun.

Imo that is not enough. We need +1wound AND the 4++ in the current meta unless we get some additional defensive buff.

Deathshroud termis are T5, 4++ and - 1dmg. There is no justification for us to lose our 4++ unless we get something else in addition to the extra wound.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Not really seeing the use of the third style? I mean, we basically can wound any characters on a 2+ now as is, what is the value of it? It would still take multiples of this guy to take down Morty or any DP if that's what they are thinking?

-4 and damage 3? Would you rather do 2x lower S, lower AP, dam1 attacks or +1S but lower D attacks?

At least for me looking at those I noticed dam3 before ability. Flat 3 is pretty sweet and lot better than dam2 in age of "-1 dam abilities everywhere".

Big questions though
WHY would you take him?
And HOW do you deliver him?

As to the why - I mean there's a case to be made to eliminate frontlining buffing characters like Chaplains. But I'd then expect him to get eradicated shortly after, effectively being points neutral at best.
Anything that buffs is usually well protected beind obscuring, bodyguards, blocking bodies...

As to the HOW - the only way I can see is with FGLTC. And that leaves you with a sub 25% chance to actually make it into combat, meaing he'll likely do nothing until T3.
Both walking up (with escort or without) or putting him in a LR or Coronus (lol) has pretty much the same problem.
I don't see a way, with the current/revealed rules, how one can make him work unless your opponent comes to you and delivers what you want to kill while not having anything to disrupt your plans like a fights first/fights last ability...

In the end, he's a melee vindicare...

 Thairne wrote:
Big questions though
WHY would you take him?
And HOW do you deliver him?

As to the why - I mean there's a case to be made to eliminate frontlining buffing characters like Chaplains. But I'd then expect him to get eradicated shortly after, effectively being points neutral at best.
Anything that buffs is usually well protected beind obscuring, bodyguards, blocking bodies...

As to the HOW - the only way I can see is with FGLTC. And that leaves you with a sub 25% chance to actually make it into combat, meaing he'll likely do nothing until T3.
Both walking up (with escort or without) or putting him in a LR or Coronus (lol) has pretty much the same problem.
I don't see a way, with the current/revealed rules, how one can make him work unless your opponent comes to you and delivers what you want to kill while not having anything to disrupt your plans like a fights first/fights last ability...

In the end, he's a melee vindicare...

To be fair nobody can answer that unless we see all the rules in the codex. The blade champion does not exist in a vacuum after all.

true enough, it is speculation at this point.But I have a hard time imagining a way, even with a 9th codex, how one could efficiently use him for his intended purpose.

Taking a squad of, say, 5 Shield Guard/Wardens , marching him onto the midfield objective together with a praetor in tow has quite a potential for force projection.
But its prohibitively expensive and takes up a huge chunk of the army for that single, easily telegraphed trick.
It creates a pretty big "no go zone" for the enemy though since that one is not easily to take for anything in the game (depending on what Terminators with which loadout you have in store). But slice n dice characters were the biggest threat to the low output custodians and he plugs that hole neatly, at least.

He seems fun, all profiles have their uses and he really comes into his own against characters.

That said a normal custodian can kill most characters......

It will very much depend if he gets any mobility tricks built in, given his much more animated running pose I could see him having built in advance and charge which would make him a much more attractive option.

I tend to agree with the naysayers on the Blade Champion. It seems like an idea that GW had that they thought was really cool, but didn't think through in terms of practicality. I'm guessing that it's "proper use," if it's going to have one at all, will be its versatility. It's not going to be useful as a hunter, it's going to be an all-comers choice. Put the dude in the center of your force and be guaranteed that he'll have a tool for whatever job he's given. He's not going to be the best at anything, but he'll never find himself in a situation where he's unsuited to tackle his opponent.

How he compares to the other characters in the army and within the army as a whole won't be clear until the new codex is released, but from a design standpoint, he seems like the guy you'd put in your force when you're unsure what you'll need to get done.

My only question is what are his dimensions? Would a regular SC with just a sword and a helmet sanz plume be an acceptable stand-in?

Also, thinking about getting the box set only because the actual SoS boxes seem to have been sold out for months at my local. I could go ebay but that seems scary.

Mobility tricks on the Blade Champion like advance and charge would make the unit very hard to pass up, at least for me.

The Champion has Always Fight First, meaning he can't be 'fight last''d into being ineligible for Counter Offensive. That alone makes him virtually auto-include in our current setup unless you're running gunline. Controlling tempo in the fight phase is incredibly important.

Excellent sign to see this kind of model from GW. Bodes well for the rest of the book.

I wouldnt go so far.
I think its a reasonable assumption that Custodes will get several fight first/last mechanics like every other codex got so far, if not more.
It is kinda needed and our specialty so far that we can arrange to fight first in most circumstances via things like Tanglefoot Grenade. Because otherwise, if you get hit by things like thunder hammers, you might as well pack and go home.

He's actually a pretty nice piece. I dont know if i'd drop trajann for him, but hes certainly to be a bargin points-wise comparably.

I think he would pair well with a telemon running up the middle in a shadowkeepers list, or with a group of wardens in a transport (if your into that).

A group of 5 wardens in a LR with him tagging along might become a staple in our upcoming dex assuming FW doesnt get updated at the same time. Wardens are gonna be pretty spicy with the flat 3 axes assuming they dont get a points increase. 25 axe attacks + this guy are gonna be very scary to basically anyone.

Yes, but you run into the age old issue of many eggs in one basket.
That group you uses costs you around 650pts...
And holds one objective. The LR especially is weak in there.
I wouldnt even play that in a casual game currently

 Thairne wrote:
Yes, but you run into the age old issue of many eggs in one basket.
That group you uses costs you around 650pts...
And holds one objective. The LR especially is weak in there.
I wouldnt even play that in a casual game currently

But it's a fantastically badass bunch of eggs in a basket
You are right of course, but maybe, just maybe our special land raider won't suck this time.

I would advise restraint (I know, it's me saying this...) on things like "He can't be fight last'd". There is already a very delirious thread on YMDC on how this currently interacts with opposing rules, and in the grand scheme of things, it looks like Defender wins. So I would possibly look for a day 1 erratta on how this is supposed to work. I don't see him suddenly dropping Kharne or whatever his name is from the Deldar. Lets just be thankful he exists currently, and mind our prayers for multi-attack profiles for all Custodes, as well as Flat damage, ownage be upon us.

 Thairne wrote:
I wouldnt go so far.
I think its a reasonable assumption that Custodes will get several fight first/last mechanics like every other codex got so far, if not more.
It is kinda needed and our specialty so far that we can arrange to fight first in most circumstances via things like Tanglefoot Grenade. Because otherwise, if you get hit by things like thunder hammers, you might as well pack and go home.

I wouldn't assume it. GK didn't really get any. They got a relic for one character and another one specific to demons. That's about it from what I remember. One of the reasons DEldar are/were so powerful, an under reported reason, is because they absolutely control the whole tempo of the fight phase. It's super important if you're going to be a melee army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I would advise restraint (I know, it's me saying this...) on things like "He can't be fight last'd". There is already a very delirious thread on YMDC on how this currently interacts with opposing rules, and in the grand scheme of things, it looks like Defender wins. So I would possibly look for a day 1 erratta on how this is supposed to work. I don't see him suddenly dropping Kharne or whatever his name is from the Deldar. Lets just be thankful he exists currently, and mind our prayers for multi-attack profiles for all Custodes, as well as Flat damage, ownage be upon us.

I just scanned the front page and don't see the thread. This issue was settled in the last developer commentary/FAQ round though. There's 3 priorities in the fight phase. You can't be forced more than one priority down. You can use the counter-offensive stratagem as long as you're not in the bottom priority. So should be correct.

My current understanding is that in practice fight first and fight last just cancel each other out, so the fight phase proceeds with the standard priorities. So charging unit fights first or defending player chooses the first unit to fight if it is already an ongoing engagement. And you can interrupt als usual.

From faq: "If a unit would be both a ‘fights first’ and a ‘fights last’ unit at the same time, it is instead a ‘fights normally’ unit."

And fights normally is non-active player turn starting so charging into something that makes you strike last(like armour of russ)=armour of russ guy gets to attack since his turn is not going(since he didn't do the charge).

My only question is what are his dimensions? Would a regular SC with just a sword and a helmet sanz plume be an acceptable stand-in?

In my opinion you'd need to do quite alot of work to a standard SC to make him a reasonable stand in.
With counts as and conversion there are two important things to keep in mind - firstly as you mentioned would be the dimensions of the model, which I imagine would be pretty similar to other custodes. Secondly is avoiding confusion for your opponents and making it clear what your conversions are.
The Blade champion stands out from other custodes by having a much more animated mobile pose and having lighter armour on his lower half.

I personally don't think a SC with a different helmet and a sentinel blade with the bolters cut off would be sufficient to make him stand out, perhaps some legs from a venetari would help sell it?

Tiberias wrote:
My current understanding is that in practice fight first and fight last just cancel each other out, so the fight phase proceeds with the standard priorities. So charging unit fights first or defending player chooses the first unit to fight if it is already an ongoing engagement. And you can interrupt als usual.

Unfortunately you're slightly off in your reading there. Fights first and fights last do indeed cancel each other out, further more all instances of firsts first cancel all instances of fights last.
The issue arises where they specify that charging is a "fights first ability" and thus gets cancelled as well.

If a model with fights first charges a unit that makes it fight last both units fight in the standard phase of combat and as it is the charging players turn the opponent gets to choose their unit to attack first.
In practice a fights first ability does very little, at best it means you always get the option to fight second either by getting second choice to fight in your opponents charge phase or by still being able to interrupt on your turn when forced to fight last. Not useless but certainly not as good as you would want it to be.

 WisdomLS wrote:

In practice a fights first ability does very little, at best it means you always get the option to fight second either by getting second choice to fight in your opponents charge phase or by still being able to interrupt on your turn when forced to fight last. Not useless but certainly not as good as you would want it to be.

I just ran into issue where fight first did do something for opponent. Specifically if I charge with 2 units I pick one unit, then he picks his. Limited amount of damage I could do.

Maybe it's less of issues with custodians who can take dents better but basically if I charge with 2 units I'm fairly likely to lose one of my units before it gets to attack.

1 vs 1 it's indeed less meaningfull.

It certainly can do something but that something is never "fight First" which is pretty funny given the name of the ability.....

doesnt charging count as a "fights first" ability?
Which means if the Blade Champion gets charged, he gets to fight before the charger as the rules cancel them out and the defender has the first activation?

Which means the only way to fight before him (if your opponent doesnt let you) is to have him charge you and have a fights first/last ability. That and always being able to counteroffensive isn't weak at all.

But admittedly it is a really dumb rules quirk that charging can get you killed before you strike if the opponent just has any ability like this...

 WisdomLS wrote:

My only question is what are his dimensions? Would a regular SC with just a sword and a helmet sanz plume be an acceptable stand-in?

In my opinion you'd need to do quite alot of work to a standard SC to make him a reasonable stand in.
With counts as and conversion there are two important things to keep in mind - firstly as you mentioned would be the dimensions of the model, which I imagine would be pretty similar to other custodes. Secondly is avoiding confusion for your opponents and making it clear what your conversions are.
The Blade champion stands out from other custodes by having a much more animated mobile pose and having lighter armour on his lower half.

I personally don't think a SC with a different helmet and a sentinel blade with the bolters cut off would be sufficient to make him stand out, perhaps some legs from a venetari would help sell it?

Tiberias wrote:
My current understanding is that in practice fight first and fight last just cancel each other out, so the fight phase proceeds with the standard priorities. So charging unit fights first or defending player chooses the first unit to fight if it is already an ongoing engagement. And you can interrupt als usual.

Unfortunately you're slightly off in your reading there. Fights first and fights last do indeed cancel each other out, further more all instances of firsts first cancel all instances of fights last.
The issue arises where they specify that charging is a "fights first ability" and thus gets cancelled as well.

If a model with fights first charges a unit that makes it fight last both units fight in the standard phase of combat and as it is the charging players turn the opponent gets to choose their unit to attack first.
In practice a fights first ability does very little, at best it means you always get the option to fight second either by getting second choice to fight in your opponents charge phase or by still being able to interrupt on your turn when forced to fight last. Not useless but certainly not as good as you would want it to be.

Oh, I'm glad that never came up in my games because I would have totally played that with the wrong reading. Thanks for clarifying.

Well, it's not bad having it on the blade champion, but I generally don't like the fact that fight last just cancels all instances of fight first.

Edit: As Thairne suggests, it does kinda mean that he's really good at being a deterrent from being charged? Only by units who have a fights last ability?(since those cancel each other out and the defending player gets to choose unit to fight first)
Does it work the same way when he just gets charged without any fight last coming into play?

 Thairne wrote:
doesnt charging count as a "fights first" ability?
Which means if the Blade Champion gets charged, he gets to fight before the charger as the rules cancel them out and the defender has the first activation?

Which means the only way to fight before him (if your opponent doesnt let you) is to have him charge you and have a fights first/last ability. That and always being able to counteroffensive isn't weak at all.

But admittedly it is a really dumb rules quirk that charging can get you killed before you strike if the opponent just has any ability like this...

Fights first and fights first don't cancel each other (fights first and fights last do) if you charge someone with fights first you both get to fight in the first step of combat in which the player whose turn it is gets to choose the first unit.

 WisdomLS wrote:

 Thairne wrote:
doesnt charging count as a "fights first" ability?
Which means if the Blade Champion gets charged, he gets to fight before the charger as the rules cancel them out and the defender has the first activation?

Which means the only way to fight before him (if your opponent doesnt let you) is to have him charge you and have a fights first/last ability. That and always being able to counteroffensive isn't weak at all.

But admittedly it is a really dumb rules quirk that charging can get you killed before you strike if the opponent just has any ability like this...

Fights first and fights first don't cancel each other (fights first and fights last do) if you charge someone with fights first you both get to fight in the first step of combat in which the player whose turn it is gets to choose the first unit.

Nvm my edit then. Those two interactions seem really counterintuitive. GW gets rid of initiative to "streamline" things and then they come up with these shenanigans.

Oh. Well that makes him even more unattractive than I think he currently is...

I mean, with no shield, I am betting his save is 2+5++, possibly dropped to a 4++ with the +1 if we still have it, which is in question. If he's just a plain jane 5++, I see no difficulty in just mass shooting him off the board. This is kind of too little information to go off on, but without knowing his stats, oh well.

I don't see the value in him right now.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I mean, with no shield, I am betting his save is 2+5++, possibly dropped to a 4++ with the +1 if we still have it, which is in question. If he's just a plain jane 5++, I see no difficulty in just mass shooting him off the board. This is kind of too little information to go off on, but without knowing his stats, oh well.

I don't see the value in him right now.

How much look out sir ignoring shooting you face O_o

I don't want to be overly optimistic, but I still think his rules are very good. He has good, versatile damage, good protection in melee, 6"heroic intervention and fight first, which might be situational but it's nice to have.

The only real problem I see now is cost and delivery. And both these aspects can only be assessed once we see the full codex. So I'll remain cautiously optimistic until then.

So just to clarify the fight phase stuff for good, here is how it works in a nutshell:

You have 3 priorities every combat.

1. Fight First
2. Fight Normal
3. Fight Last

Charging does NOTHING except give you a Fight First priority. Fight First abilities also give you a Fight First priority. These do NOT stack to make some kind of super Fight First priority. No amount of Fight First's can get you past priority 1.

Similarly, getting hit with two Fight Last will not force you to priority 3. Fight Last does not stack.

Finally, Fight First and Fight Last will cancel each other out and just put you at priority 2.

As for who fights when, in priority 1 (Fight First) the ACTIVE player selects, then the DEFENDING player (if the defending player has any source of Fight First, if not, the active player simply activates all Fight First units in sequence).

In priority 2, this is reversed. The DEFENDING player activates first. Otherwise it is handled the same way as priority 1.

In priority 3, we use the same system as priority 1. The ACTIVE player activates first, then the defending player. Priority 3 has the added caveat that interrupt stratagems, such as Counter-Offensive, cannot be used on units fighting at priority 3.

tneva82 wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I mean, with no shield, I am betting his save is 2+5++, possibly dropped to a 4++ with the +1 if we still have it, which is in question. If he's just a plain jane 5++, I see no difficulty in just mass shooting him off the board. This is kind of too little information to go off on, but without knowing his stats, oh well.

I don't see the value in him right now.

How much look out sir ignoring shooting you face O_o

I think the real question is how many points you want to invest in a (potentially slow) melee character (that can possibly get rekt if he charges) to footslog him up the board so he actually can do something :/
Right now, we just dont have the tools to make him work in almost any scenario. That might change in the new dex, but right now with what we know, I join the pessimists club.
The only scenario I could see him doing well in is a defensive position where another enemy character wants to go so you can HI into it. Otherwise... maybe as a horde clearer if he is cheaper than a freakin' jetbike, because these do the job well enough already with hurricane bolters and their melee without having delivery or protection problems.

So unless there is a named variant of this specific unit, which I am not certain of, I don't see how this unit does anything we are not already extremely good at. That's my point.

At best it's a variant model that opens up a fun new way of playing custodes.

At worst he's a completely useless and redundant model that does nothing and will likely never see the table in high level play.

I remain dubious until I see the actual statline and codex. He might boast a 8" move and have a strat that gives him a double charge/advance. Who knows?

 WisdomLS wrote:

My only question is what are his dimensions? Would a regular SC with just a sword and a helmet sanz plume be an acceptable stand-in?

In my opinion you'd need to do quite alot of work to a standard SC to make him a reasonable stand in.
With counts as and conversion there are two important things to keep in mind - firstly as you mentioned would be the dimensions of the model, which I imagine would be pretty similar to other custodes. Secondly is avoiding confusion for your opponents and making it clear what your conversions are.
The Blade champion stands out from other custodes by having a much more animated mobile pose and having lighter armour on his lower half.

I personally don't think a SC with a different helmet and a sentinel blade with the bolters cut off would be sufficient to make him stand out, perhaps some legs from a venetari would help sell it?

I was thinking of using the legs and torso of one of the lighter armored AoS Stormcast with biker Custodes Head and shoulder pads, custodian guard arms, and a GK terminator sword.

 cuda1179 wrote:

 WisdomLS wrote:

My only question is what are his dimensions? Would a regular SC with just a sword and a helmet sanz plume be an acceptable stand-in?

In my opinion you'd need to do quite alot of work to a standard SC to make him a reasonable stand in.
With counts as and conversion there are two important things to keep in mind - firstly as you mentioned would be the dimensions of the model, which I imagine would be pretty similar to other custodes. Secondly is avoiding confusion for your opponents and making it clear what your conversions are.
The Blade champion stands out from other custodes by having a much more animated mobile pose and having lighter armour on his lower half.

I personally don't think a SC with a different helmet and a sentinel blade with the bolters cut off would be sufficient to make him stand out, perhaps some legs from a venetari would help sell it?

I was thinking of using the legs and torso of one of the lighter armored AoS Stormcast with biker Custodes Head and shoulder pads, custodian guard arms, and a GK terminator sword.

The rule is always ask your TO, but if I was your TO/opponent I'd say that's awesome and rock on.

I've actually got quite a few Stormcast to Custodes conversions, and so I salute your idea wholeheartedly!

Audustum wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:

 WisdomLS wrote:

My only question is what are his dimensions? Would a regular SC with just a sword and a helmet sanz plume be an acceptable stand-in?

In my opinion you'd need to do quite alot of work to a standard SC to make him a reasonable stand in.
With counts as and conversion there are two important things to keep in mind - firstly as you mentioned would be the dimensions of the model, which I imagine would be pretty similar to other custodes. Secondly is avoiding confusion for your opponents and making it clear what your conversions are.
The Blade champion stands out from other custodes by having a much more animated mobile pose and having lighter armour on his lower half.

I personally don't think a SC with a different helmet and a sentinel blade with the bolters cut off would be sufficient to make him stand out, perhaps some legs from a venetari would help sell it?

I was thinking of using the legs and torso of one of the lighter armored AoS Stormcast with biker Custodes Head and shoulder pads, custodian guard arms, and a GK terminator sword.

The rule is always ask your TO, but if I was your TO/opponent I'd say that's awesome and rock on.

What percentage of the folks here do you personally believe "compete"? I would say the strong majority are casual, and the most competitive is a local hobby store tourney.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:

 WisdomLS wrote:

My only question is what are his dimensions? Would a regular SC with just a sword and a helmet sanz plume be an acceptable stand-in?

In my opinion you'd need to do quite alot of work to a standard SC to make him a reasonable stand in.
With counts as and conversion there are two important things to keep in mind - firstly as you mentioned would be the dimensions of the model, which I imagine would be pretty similar to other custodes. Secondly is avoiding confusion for your opponents and making it clear what your conversions are.
The Blade champion stands out from other custodes by having a much more animated mobile pose and having lighter armour on his lower half.

I personally don't think a SC with a different helmet and a sentinel blade with the bolters cut off would be sufficient to make him stand out, perhaps some legs from a venetari would help sell it?

I was thinking of using the legs and torso of one of the lighter armored AoS Stormcast with biker Custodes Head and shoulder pads, custodian guard arms, and a GK terminator sword.

The rule is always ask your TO, but if I was your TO/opponent I'd say that's awesome and rock on.

What percentage of the folks here do you personally believe "compete"? I would say the strong majority are casual, and the most competitive is a local hobby store tourney.

I'd say nobody would really bother complaining about the conversions, as long as its clear what you're fielding. Its all GW product too.
I'd say probably only 20% of the hobby is hardcore competitive, 50% are probably occasionally visit a tournament. The rest play casual, and thats fine.

I swear though if we lose the +1 invuln, our codex is DOA.

I dunno, I'd give up the +1 Invuln for a sweeping attack or a x2 stength attack profile set,

Or give up the +1++ to make it a strat, and make our bikes 70ppm. Termies can be 60PPM

2+5++ is still wicked good, considering every model we have is likely 4-7 wounds, S/T5, and BS/WS 2+.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:

 WisdomLS wrote:

My only question is what are his dimensions? Would a regular SC with just a sword and a helmet sanz plume be an acceptable stand-in?

In my opinion you'd need to do quite alot of work to a standard SC to make him a reasonable stand in.
With counts as and conversion there are two important things to keep in mind - firstly as you mentioned would be the dimensions of the model, which I imagine would be pretty similar to other custodes. Secondly is avoiding confusion for your opponents and making it clear what your conversions are.
The Blade champion stands out from other custodes by having a much more animated mobile pose and having lighter armour on his lower half.

I personally don't think a SC with a different helmet and a sentinel blade with the bolters cut off would be sufficient to make him stand out, perhaps some legs from a venetari would help sell it?

I was thinking of using the legs and torso of one of the lighter armored AoS Stormcast with biker Custodes Head and shoulder pads, custodian guard arms, and a GK terminator sword.

The rule is always ask your TO, but if I was your TO/opponent I'd say that's awesome and rock on.

What percentage of the folks here do you personally believe "compete"? I would say the strong majority are casual, and the most competitive is a local hobby store tourney.

'Here' as in the hobby or as in Dakkadakka? For the hobby. I think most players will wind up at a GT now and then with aims to 'go 3-2' or 'win their pod' or something like that. For Dakka, this is like casual play central (as opposed to B&S which is narrative central) so it's probably a hefty minority here that's competitive. Hardcore competitive players are mostly on Discords (Art of War's and 40k TTS's have decent numbers I think) and r/warhammercompetitive.

It's really disappointing we're ~6 weeks out from our codex and we don't have any fresh rumors. I suppose we'll see the codex when we see it but damn.

We will see rumors when GW wants us to. But give it time. I'm sure they are coming soon.

As we're waiting for rumors how about some rampant speculation and wish listing :-)

I'm hoping that wardens become actually useful, perhaps with built in transhuman or FNP but I'm hoping for something to make them standout and be different - just being tougher makes them another flavour of terminator - one of the two would be better and the other would not get used. Perhaps they will get built in anti-character rules that are useful or an aura of cancelling rerolls.

Sisters just need to have better anti psyker abilities or be alot cheaper.

Damage increase across the board obviously.

The main thing I am hoping for is an army wide durability buff rule - to replace and hopefully improve on the +1 invuln save - ever army has invulns, I want something unique.
I'm thinking that we might be able to re-roll failed saves of 1, or possibly a flat -1 to wound, or no rerolling to hit/wound us. How our durability is buffed will define how usable we are as an army.

Personally, I find an army-wide 5++ and a +1 to invul saves to be the absolute best army rule. I couldn't imagine anything more preferable, even if it's not particularly flashy or unique. So I'm reeeeally hoping that that rumor is incorrect. But I do think that GW has been scrapping 3++ so I wouldn't be surprised if the rules are changed in such a way that prevents anyone from getting a 3++ for more than a single turn/phase.

I don't know why everyone is doubting the 3++. It's not THAT oppressive with all the -1/-2 weapons out there. And if anyone deserves it, it's us. I faced a plague caster that did 12 mortal wounds in one phase recently... All the invuls in the world couldn't help me.

For wishlisting I'd really like some more variety:
Roll sagittarum into basic guard profile so you can mix and match the sword and board, spear, and gun.
More terminator options. Power firsts, storm shields, heavy weapons. How cool would a sword and shield allarus custodian be?
More dred options. Give our codex contemptor the option to take a spear or sword and board (to play as our current forgeworld options).
Unlease the Lions strat should just be an army rule you can use when you deploy a unit.

Wish list for santa:

Sisters as troops
Sweeping and chopping weapon profiles
S5 bolters on our weapons, but cost a premium.
Drop the +1, and give us the same in an army wide entire turn strat.
Make Sisters able to deny within 6", or make the strength of their blankness proximity based. -1 at max, -3 at close combat.
Make our Wardens able to lock down targets in combat.
Make Terminator grenade launchers 2d3 S6 AP2 D1. Assault 18" Or a Krak Profile of 1shot S8 AP3 D6

I guess if I'm winging it (note no FW cause they already have their book and we haven't had a Codex yet that touched FW stuff):

1. Axes flat 3 damage (+3S).
2. Swords flat 2 damage (+1S).
3. Spears flat 2 damage (+2S).
4. Shields retain 3++.
5. Emperor's Auspice strat remains.
6. Transhuman strat remains.
7. +1W across the board.
8. Inceptor Lances flat 3 damage on the charge. Remain 1D3 when not charging. Give S+2 instead of +1.
9. Sisters get an aura range increase in proximity to other Sisters, in addition to increased debuff.
10. Sisters get -1 to be hit akin to a weaker Culexus.
11. Jetbikes get inbuilt 'hit rolls of 1-2 always fail' like a weaker version of the new character.
12. Shieldhosts become actual sub-factions rather than just WT and keyword (so relic, ability and strat for each).
13. Trajann gets an increase to attacks.
14. FnP changed to all MW instead of just psychic phase.
15. Wardens get a 5+++ all the time to everything.
16. Armywide +1 invuln stays.
17. Sisters HQ!
18. Sword Sisters get Advance and Charge.
19. Bolter Sisters are Troops and Core.
20. Flamer Sisters are Fast Attack and Core.
21. Sword Sisters are Elite and Core.
22. Sisters get the armywide 5++ and 6+++ to MW.
23. More relics/traits.
24. Avenge the Fallen remains.
25. Tanglefoot remains.

Mad_Proctologist wrote:
I don't know why everyone is doubting the 3++. It's not THAT oppressive with all the -1/-2 weapons out there. And if anyone deserves it, it's us. I faced a plague caster that did 12 mortal wounds in one phase recently... All the invuls in the world couldn't help me.

For wishlisting I'd really like some more variety:
Roll sagittarum into basic guard profile so you can mix and match the sword and board, spear, and gun.
More terminator options. Power firsts, storm shields, heavy weapons. How cool would a sword and shield allarus custodian be?
More dred options. Give our codex contemptor the option to take a spear or sword and board (to play as our current forgeworld options).
Unlease the Lions strat should just be an army rule you can use when you deploy a unit.

Because gw has been removing it from game. Short of 1 shot stuff like marine relic you are pipe dreaming if you think 3++ stays.

And just for thought would it be that bad to go to 4++ and gain 5+++ vs mw? That helps vs mw and allows other ways than mw spam to deal with custodians. Do you WANT game be race to spam mw's? Invs are direct reason for that,

My Custodes have been thrashed by C'Tans more than a few times so a better save vs MW would be very welcome even at the expense of an army wide 3++

Well if we're into wishlisting here's my take:

-Aegis of the Emperor gets changed to a flat 4++ and a 5+++ against all mortal wounds.

- +1 Wound for all Infantry and bikers (this seems very likely imo)

- +1 Attack across the board

- spears 2 profiles: either S+2, AP3, Dmg2 or S user, Ap2, dmg1 double attack

-axes flat 3 dmg

-storm shields give +1 to armor saves and you can't re roll hits against the user in melee

-interceptor lances flat 3 dmg only on the charge

-Trajanns watchers axe flat 4 dmg!!!

-potent options to play hero hammer. We're the faction to do it. I want a strat for double warlord trait on one character in addition to captain commander traits

-wardens get a fight last strat and a blanket 5+++ against any dmg.

-no more having to take Valerian and Aleya as a pair and decent rules for both.

-kickass relics and traits for the blade champion so he can truly chop up any generic character in the game.

-passive boni for picking a shield host like super doctrines

- sisters as troops, but same restrictions as with poxwalkers in death guard.

Addendum:

I also wouldn't mind a MW on 6's in Melee for Terminators against HQs

Wardens could get the wulfen rule which allows them to attack even when they died and they should be the infantry unit that does the most damage. So then termis would do more damage than normal guardians and also be tougher and warden should be a little tougher than guardians but do a lot more damage.

Two attack profiles could be the thing that differentiates Custodes from the rest so it would be nice if the the whole army had that rule.

Heroic intervention for the whole army SW have why don't we?

got a leak from people close to GW

4+++ FNP against MW
fraction wise 4++(infan/bike)
biker w5, termi w4
sword +1 3 2
halberd +2 3 2
axe +3 2 2(yeah...)
sister as troop but limited numbers (<= custode troop numbers)
bike melta missle got nerf but got d3+3
bike melee charged +1 to wound
many stratagem tuned down or limited to core units


got a special fraction wise ability close to NEC command protocol, choose 3 out of 6, You can choose A1 or A2 by the beginning. if you choose A1, you can switch to A2 or B1 or B2 by round 2. if A2 chosen, only B1 and B2 available.

Sisters as a troop would certainly be nice, as would the 4++ against mortals.

superninja_834 wrote:
got a leak from people close to GW

4+++ FNP against MW
fraction wise 4++(infan/bike)
biker w5, termi w4
sword +1 3 2
halberd +2 3 2
axe +3 2 2(yeah...)
sister as troop but limited numbers (<= custode troop numbers)
bike melta missle got nerf but got d3+3
bike melee charged +1 to wound
many stratagem tuned down or limited to core units


got a special fraction wise ability close to NEC command protocol, choose 3 out of 6, You can choose A1 or A2 by the beginning. if you choose A1, you can switch to A2 or B1 or B2 by round 2. if A2 chosen, only B1 and B2 available.

Feed us moar.

D2 weapons is disappointing but understandable. I generally thought d3 on the axe seemed a little extreme. I know we're amazing, but do we really expect the axe to hit as hard as a thunder hammer?

4+++ against mortals seems excessive. I won't say no to that, but that does seem excessive. It means psychic powers would actually be a very inefficient way to remove models (needing on average 4 successful smites to kill each 4w custodian), making the sisters of silence moot as psyker protection. They may still find a place as cheap troop fillers for detachments that want to minimize standard custodian guard squads.

D3 + 3 damage melta missile makes our bikes decent tank hunters. Average 5 damage, a unit of 5 bikes is more likely than not to kill many piñatas in the game, then charge in to scoop up the candy.

Still a lot of important details missing, like what is going to be core, what the points look like and how our strats will go. Part of what made us last so long in 9th was an excellent strategem toolbox, which we won't need to rely on so much if our units get a bit better.

Edited for math error.

Four smites, actually.

4d3 averages to 8, with a 4+++, that’d be one dead Custode at 4 wounds.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Four smites, actually.

4d3 averages to 8, with a 4+++, that’d be one dead Custode at 4 wounds.

You are correct

Mad_Proctologist wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Four smites, actually.

4d3 averages to 8, with a 4+++, that’d be one dead Custode at 4 wounds.

You are correct

If there’s one thing I can do, it’s math.

But yeah, even at 50 PPM, that’s 6.25 Points Per Effective Wound with a 4+++ and W4.
That’s literally only .25 PPEW worse than Plaguebearers.

superninja_834 wrote:
got a leak from people close to GW

4+++ FNP against MW
fraction wise 4++(infan/bike)
biker w5, termi w4
sword +1 3 2
halberd +2 3 2
axe +3 2 2(yeah...)
sister as troop but limited numbers (<= custode troop numbers)
bike melta missle got nerf but got d3+3
bike melee charged +1 to wound
many stratagem tuned down or limited to core units


got a special fraction wise ability close to NEC command protocol, choose 3 out of 6, You can choose A1 or A2 by the beginning. if you choose A1, you can switch to A2 or B1 or B2 by round 2. if A2 chosen, only B1 and B2 available.

Any info on Wardens? Anything new for them?

"got a leak from people close to GW" - Tell me more please. Did they "know a friend"?

Because I heard from a homeless guy at a shelter that the winning powerball numbers are 6,5,7,2,1, and green.

Mad_Proctologist wrote:

superninja_834 wrote:
got a leak from people close to GW

4+++ FNP against MW
fraction wise 4++(infan/bike)
biker w5, termi w4
sword +1 3 2
halberd +2 3 2
axe +3 2 2(yeah...)
sister as troop but limited numbers (<= custode troop numbers)
bike melta missle got nerf but got d3+3
bike melee charged +1 to wound
many stratagem tuned down or limited to core units


got a special fraction wise ability close to NEC command protocol, choose 3 out of 6, You can choose A1 or A2 by the beginning. if you choose A1, you can switch to A2 or B1 or B2 by round 2. if A2 chosen, only B1 and B2 available.

Feed us moar.

D2 weapons is disappointing but understandable. I generally thought d3 on the axe seemed a little extreme. I know we're amazing, but do we really expect the axe to hit as hard as a thunder hammer?

4+++ against mortals seems excessive. I won't say no to that, but that does seem excessive. It means psychic powers would actually be a very inefficient way to remove models (needing on average 4 successful smites to kill each 4w custodian), making the sisters of silence moot as psyker protection. They may still find a place as cheap troop fillers for detachments that want to minimize standard custodian guard squads.

D3 + 3 damage melta missile makes our bikes decent tank hunters. Average 5 damage, a unit of 5 bikes is more likely than not to kill many piñatas in the game, then charge in to scoop up the candy.

Still a lot of important details missing, like what is going to be core, what the points look like and how our strats will go. Part of what made us last so long in 9th was an excellent strategem toolbox, which we won't need to rely on so much if our units get a bit better.

Edited for math error.

4+++ is actually part of the "new ability", don't forget drukhari and ork and nec could unleash tons of mw in melee or shooting.

Bike lost its biggest advantage against vehicles

For the core sake, core keyword was updated few months ago and would more likely stays that way. So, now is a good timing to sell ur telemon
That's all I know, the book is on the way anyway.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

superninja_834 wrote:
got a leak from people close to GW

4+++ FNP against MW
fraction wise 4++(infan/bike)
biker w5, termi w4
sword +1 3 2
halberd +2 3 2
axe +3 2 2(yeah...)
sister as troop but limited numbers (<= custode troop numbers)
bike melta missle got nerf but got d3+3
bike melee charged +1 to wound
many stratagem tuned down or limited to core units


got a special fraction wise ability close to NEC command protocol, choose 3 out of 6, You can choose A1 or A2 by the beginning. if you choose A1, you can switch to A2 or B1 or B2 by round 2. if A2 chosen, only B1 and B2 available.

Any info on Wardens? Anything new for them?

Didn't mention

superninja_834 wrote:
got a leak from people close to GW

4+++ FNP against MW
fraction wise 4++(infan/bike)
biker w5, termi w4
sword +1 3 2
halberd +2 3 2
axe +3 2 2(yeah...)
sister as troop but limited numbers (<= custode troop numbers)
bike melta missle got nerf but got d3+3
bike melee charged +1 to wound
many stratagem tuned down or limited to core units


got a special fraction wise ability close to NEC command protocol, choose 3 out of 6, You can choose A1 or A2 by the beginning. if you choose A1, you can switch to A2 or B1 or B2 by round 2. if A2 chosen, only B1 and B2 available.

Welcome to DakkaDakka.

I appreciate you bringing us news but i am skeptical.

Those changes make little sense and would be a nerf for the damage because 2dmg is worse than d3 dmg against -1 dmg which so many units have now.
Strength 7 spears would almost be pointless when you have a strength 6 sword.
Tuned down and limited strats would also be a big nerf
Bikes having only +1 to wound would be a nerf

4+++ would be such an exessiv buff vs TS and other psyker armys(not very believable)

d2 is buff over dd3 vs anything with w2 without -1dam rule though.

Strat thing seems comparable to previous books. Guess gw could go for another mid-edition design ethos change.

tneva82 wrote:
d2 is buff over dd3 vs anything with w2 without -1dam rule though.


Strat thing seems comparable to previous books. Guess gw could go for another mid-edition design ethos change.

on averege d3 dmg and 2 dmg is the same so no buff dmg wise it just make the dmg more consistent.

S6 swords means no one would ever take the spears since S7 isn't in that sweet spot S6 and S8 axes are. Unless they SERIOUSLY buff the shooting on spears. I'm talking rapid fire 2/assault 4 and ap -1

Yeah I don't buy it.

 nordsturmking wrote:

superninja_834 wrote:
got a leak from people close to GW

4+++ FNP against MW
fraction wise 4++(infan/bike)
biker w5, termi w4
sword +1 3 2
halberd +2 3 2
axe +3 2 2(yeah...)
sister as troop but limited numbers (<= custode troop numbers)
bike melta missle got nerf but got d3+3
bike melee charged +1 to wound
many stratagem tuned down or limited to core units


got a special fraction wise ability close to NEC command protocol, choose 3 out of 6, You can choose A1 or A2 by the beginning. if you choose A1, you can switch to A2 or B1 or B2 by round 2. if A2 chosen, only B1 and B2 available.

Welcome to DakkaDakka.

I appreciate you bringing us news but i am skeptical.

Those changes make little sense and would be a nerf for the damage because 2dmg is worse than d3 dmg against -1 dmg which so many units have now.
Strength 7 spears would almost be pointless when you have a strength 6 sword.
Tuned down and limited strats would also be a big nerf
Bikes having only +1 to wound would be a nerf

4+++ would be such an exessiv buff vs TS and other psyker armys(not very believable)

I never said it would be a buff comparing to what we have now. Generally gw took something, and give back something, but overall is a net loss. However custodes performance would be more predictable and consistent in the new codex. And I personally ok with the current status of custode, win rate was being 50+ if i recall. After all a typical custode player would only need to pay for handful of GW models and some FW units(optional but good to have) to make it "playable", comparing to space marine/orks/drukhari...

 nordsturmking wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
d2 is buff over dd3 vs anything with w2 without -1dam rule though.


Strat thing seems comparable to previous books. Guess gw could go for another mid-edition design ethos change.

on averege d3 dmg and 2 dmg is the same so no buff dmg wise it just make the dmg more consistent.

Eeehh....no. That's why I said W2.

Rolling 1 and 3 wounds for W2 models does not result in 2 dead models. Rolling higher than average does not compensate rolling lower than average.

Try it. Roll 1 vs W2 model. Then roll 3. Did you kill 2 models? If yes you will find hard to find opponents seeing you would be cheating.

Whenever you deal with weapons that deal more damage than W characteristic simple tohit*towound*pastsave*damage calculation simply breaks down in usefullness. Do you know what that algorithm gave for 8e necron pylon vs baneblade? 31 damage in average. Vs 24W model. do you know odds of one shotting was? 57%...

Actual useful damage when you factor away overkill and the fact better than average does not compensate for over average was more like 19 damage. This on d6 shot hitting on 3+, wounding on 2+, straight past save and (6+d3)*2 damage.

tneva82 wrote:

 nordsturmking wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
d2 is buff over dd3 vs anything with w2 without -1dam rule though.


Strat thing seems comparable to previous books. Guess gw could go for another mid-edition design ethos change.

on averege d3 dmg and 2 dmg is the same so no buff dmg wise it just make the dmg more consistent.

Eeehh....no. That's why I said W2.

Rolling 1 and 3 wounds for W2 models does not result in 2 dead models. Rolling higher than average does not compensate rolling lower than average.

Try it. Roll 1 vs W2 model. Then roll 3. Did you kill 2 models? If yes you will find hard to find opponents seeing you would be cheating.

Whenever you deal with weapons that deal more damage than W characteristic simple tohit*towound*pastsave*damage calculation simply breaks down in usefullness. Do you know what that algorithm gave for 8e necron pylon vs baneblade? 31 damage in average. Vs 24W model. do you know odds of one shotting was? 57%...

Actual useful damage when you factor away overkill and the fact better than average does not compensate for over average was more like 19 damage. This on d6 shot hitting on 3+, wounding on 2+, straight past save and (6+d3)*2 damage.

I didn't saw that that 2W part. In that case d2 is better.

I find it odd that we are focusing entirely on what changes will happen to our Infantry and cav units, but there has been extremely little mentioned about our BEST units, which are FW. Didn't GW say they would be getting updates in the codexes as well?

I do worry that they'll nerf the FW dreadnoughts to try and make the GW Contemptor more of a viable pick rather than buffing the GW Contemptor to an equivalent power level.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I find it odd that we are focusing entirely on what changes will happen to our Infantry and cav units, but there has been extremely little mentioned about our BEST units, which are FW. Didn't GW say they would be getting updates in the codexes as well?

Not that I have seen?

The FW compendium is already a thing, and the apparent MO of gw has been minor edits to bring faction rules into line, such as doctrina imperatives for admech.

I'd say its unlikely that our fw stuff will have much more than that done to it.

if at all, I'd expect them to get the CORE treatment as well.
After all, most Dreadnoughts got CORE and with Custodes they're pretty much the only option.
Since vehicles wont get core for sure, there otherwise would be really no units to get core otherwise.
Troops derived from the Guard kit
Terminators
MAYBE bikes and wardens, but I'd doubt it
With such a low unit count over all, restricting dreadnoughts out of CORE would be... interesting.

I swore I saw something back at the start of 9th that briefly covered "core rules" and Custodes had Vertus Praetors on this list. Am I misremembering?

 Thairne wrote:
if at all, I'd expect them to get the CORE treatment as well.
After all, most Dreadnoughts got CORE and with Custodes they're pretty much the only option.
Since vehicles wont get core for sure, there otherwise would be really no units to get core otherwise.
Troops derived from the Guard kit
Terminators
MAYBE bikes and wardens, but I'd doubt it
With such a low unit count over all, restricting dreadnoughts out of CORE would be... interesting.

The first half of the Custodes FW units have CORE. Flyers, tanks and telemon don't hve it.

FW has never been touched by a Codex and isn't likely to be by the Custodes one. So all FW stuff should be seen as final.

When I saw 2 damage on the Aquilons in the FW books but 1D3 damage on the FW spear units I feared. 2 damage for the rest is all right (I had hope for axes though, yes, they're a thunder hammer equivalent). 2 it is though. Nerf against -1 damage armies, buff (cause consistency is a buff) to others.

+1W to Termies and Bikes would be great.

S7 spears are now the light vehicle killers (remember, not all infantry can take axes, will help if you're fighting Armigers or transports or mirror matching our bikers).

Troop Sisters are a huge hurray even with limitation.

Melta-missiles may finally be useful, we'll see.

The stratagem changes, if truly weakening us, could doom us though. Have to see. That's the biggest concern at the moment.

Bikes losing re-roll all wounds for +1 to wound is a nerf. It would help if we had a re-roll wound aura that could actually keep up with them.

 mrhappyface wrote:
I do worry that they'll nerf the FW dreadnoughts to try and make the GW Contemptor more of a viable pick rather than buffing the GW Contemptor to an equivalent power level.

I really hope not, the FW Achillus is my favorite model in the army, and boy does it go down like a ton of bricks to any dedicated shooting.

Audustum wrote:
FW has never been touched by a Codex and isn't likely to be by the Custodes one. So all FW stuff should be seen as final.

When I saw 2 damage on the Aquilons in the FW books but 1D3 damage on the FW spear units I feared. 2 damage for the rest is all right (I had hope for axes though, yes, they're a thunder hammer equivalent). 2 it is though. Nerf against -1 damage armies, buff (cause consistency is a buff) to others.

+1W to Termies and Bikes would be great.

S7 spears are now the light vehicle killers (remember, not all infantry can take axes, will help if you're fighting Armigers or transports or mirror matching our bikers).

Troop Sisters are a huge hurray even with limitation.

Melta-missiles may finally be useful, we'll see.

The stratagem changes, if truly weakening us, could doom us though. Have to see. That's the biggest concern at the moment.

Bikes losing re-roll all wounds for +1 to wound is a nerf. It would help if we had a re-roll wound aura that could actually keep up with them.

I don't think they'll touch the FW dreads aside from point adjustments, but I am certain that the'll Errata the Aquilon and Venatari if the +1 wound in our main codex proves to be true.

I have been re-reviewing the Custodes rumors (not the one posted here the other day, but the one that came out with the photo of the swordsman) and I'm wondering... one of the rumors says "new character with a sort of litanies." It seems pretty clear to me that the rumor that there will be a new character is legit since we've got photos and rules of the new character; the swordsman. Do y'all think that this will be the character that will have litanies, if that rumors ends up being true? It seems like having litanies is kind of a big part of a character and there's no mention of litanies in the swordsman's rules that were released. Do you think that the swordsman will also have litany buffs that he can provide for nearby Custodians, or do you think that the "litany" rumor is bs and what's meant by "litanies" are his different fighting styles?

the latter.
He was also rumoured as a "Lieutnant style" character which he is not, he's more like a Company champion.
So mix-ups do and can happen.

 Thairne wrote:
the latter.
He was also rumoured as a "Lieutnant style" character which he is not, he's more like a Company champion.
So mix-ups do and can happen.

People seem to forget too: it's been claimed that GW has, in the past, sent different versions of rules releases to people that are very similar but not identical in order to weed out leakers. Sometimes a rumor might just be someone repeating one of these fake copies.

We should also be quick to realize that nothing has mentioned points. FW or otherwise. If we get +1W across the board, I expect we will see some form of points compensation to balance out. Unless that balance is us losing the ++1 army wide.

Considering that the only thing that kept Custodes slightly above 50% was the 3++, I dont think we need any compensation if that one's gone (which it is very, very likely).
It's pretty much just compensation for the lethality of the new meta and the prevalence of MW spam to keep with the flow.

That said, if we go down to a 5++ (which for an elite army as this is pretty bad) there should be quite a few ways to get back up to a 4++. AP2 is still the most common, but especially in melee and against marines AP3 will be just that more common and brutal.
That means that, with essentially the same survivability in most cases, the extra will come in very handy against anything that isnt D2.
At least we wont die do a squid with a metal plate on its head that easily anymore (which bothers the living feth out of me)

So today, there was a video in my YT feed about GW recent major price increases. Which the store justified by saying it had to do with the points value of the models. Does this mean Custodes are about to see a major cost increase?

i have a question to this rather popular arche type.

trajan
dawneagle captain
3x3 sagittarum
5x venatari
galatus
2x telemon

and then a patrol of either 2x5 scions and a guard hq or 2x5 battle sisters and a fitting hq.

my question is; how do those lists play? the scions seem rather bad for holding objectives. They can deep strike innately, I guess, but where do they go from there? sisters are decent but.. couldn't you just use sisters of silence and be done with it? Is there a combo or a strat thing missing? or a game plan that im blind too?

Cost of custodes army is significantly depend on FW units. Price changes in gw line honestly, make very trivial impact.

So, all we can do at this point is contrast ourselves against our competition. Here's a first try, The new and improved Abbadon with his new rules for 220, or Trajann for 180? Trajaann is no longer a must take, no matter how good his aura is. The name of 9th is abilities. on weapons or on characters, it doesn't matter. If you can put out 13-20 attacks that can explode on 6s, as well as deal MWs, you are king of the beat sticks. If theat is what they are giving Chaos, I can't wait to see what buffs Trajaan gets...

personally, I fear them being broken. Argh. id hate that. I know im not in the strongest playgroup, but its not super bad either, and in our mini meta I am dominating so hard with custodes 8th ed rules. So I dont want a new admech book for us. I want a cool book like sisters was.

Scoundrel80 wrote:
personally, I fear them being broken. Argh. id hate that. I know im not in the strongest playgroup, but its not super bad either, and in our mini meta I am dominating so hard with custodes 8th ed rules. So I dont want a new admech book for us. I want a cool book like sisters was.

Opposite here. I play in a highly competitive, tournament oriented meta. I need this to be Dark Eldar/AdMech/Ork tier because that quality is frequently what I'm staring down.

I totally understand that. but then id rather have those other factions toned down a bit. I feel the game is rapidly moving towards flat 3-4 dam and buckets of die every activation. So you get in position and take tuns deleting stuff. its a bit stale.

that said, I love ninth. id just like to see some stuff being reigned in.

Audustum wrote:

Scoundrel80 wrote:
personally, I fear them being broken. Argh. id hate that. I know im not in the strongest playgroup, but its not super bad either, and in our mini meta I am dominating so hard with custodes 8th ed rules. So I dont want a new admech book for us. I want a cool book like sisters was.

Opposite here. I play in a highly competitive, tournament oriented meta. I need this to be Dark Eldar/AdMech/Ork tier because that quality is frequently what I'm staring down.

So rather than do the correct option and tone down the others GW should make game go even nutty?

Why? Tone down the nutty ones. Don't start spiraling power creep.

tneva82 wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Scoundrel80 wrote:
personally, I fear them being broken. Argh. id hate that. I know im not in the strongest playgroup, but its not super bad either, and in our mini meta I am dominating so hard with custodes 8th ed rules. So I dont want a new admech book for us. I want a cool book like sisters was.

Opposite here. I play in a highly competitive, tournament oriented meta. I need this to be Dark Eldar/AdMech/Ork tier because that quality is frequently what I'm staring down.

So rather than do the correct option and tone down the others GW should make game go even nutty?

Why? Tone down the nutty ones. Don't start spiraling power creep.

You know why GW will never do that....

Scoundrel80 wrote:
I totally understand that. but then id rather have those other factions toned down a bit. I feel the game is rapidly moving towards flat 3-4 dam and buckets of die every activation. So you get in position and take tuns deleting stuff. its a bit stale.

that said, I love ninth. id just like to see some stuff being reigned in.

I only stand against this for two reasons:

1. While GW's balancing is lackluster at times, I trust their buffing decisions more than their nerfing decisions. Nerfing tends to send you to the ground.

2. I'd consider Druks/AdMech/Orks a 'fun' level of power and would rather everyone gets brought up there than some shoved down.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Scoundrel80 wrote:
personally, I fear them being broken. Argh. id hate that. I know im not in the strongest playgroup, but its not super bad either, and in our mini meta I am dominating so hard with custodes 8th ed rules. So I dont want a new admech book for us. I want a cool book like sisters was.

Opposite here. I play in a highly competitive, tournament oriented meta. I need this to be Dark Eldar/AdMech/Ork tier because that quality is frequently what I'm staring down.

So rather than do the correct option and tone down the others GW should make game go even nutty?

Why? Tone down the nutty ones. Don't start spiraling power creep.

I personally find the current playstyle between these factions enjoyable (such as when Druks fight AdMech, it's a stressful and enjoyable match). Everyone's different (I need one of these Ork emotes on the side to be a shrug).

I'd like a good, but balanced book. That being said,bif it's OP, at least I can use it for revenge. I've barely played since the end of 6th edition, but a couple of people I have played choose op net lists for their highest performing armies. Despite literally going 5 years with the same army list and them changing things with every FAQ, I'm the power gamer, what with my 10 man squads, 40% win rate, and such.

 cuda1179 wrote:
I'd like a good, but balanced book. That being said,bif it's OP, at least I can use it for revenge. I've barely played since the end of 6th edition, but a couple of people I have played choose op net lists for their highest performing armies. Despite literally going 5 years with the same army list and them changing things with every FAQ, I'm the power gamer, what with my 10 man squads, 40% win rate, and such.

I feel your pain. I find it's almost always the FoTM and other meta chasers that are so quick to call people out as the very things they are even though a lot of the times its just players who have stayed with their army and basically made things work with what they have, so when the pendulum swings back towards that army, you have enough experience with the army already that you can do a lot better than people who just started playing them and they get hissy when you're actually able to fight back. Projection is the name of the game when it comes to a lot of people who want easy wins.

So this is a major problem with the way our faction is designed in my opinion, and I would welcome a gutting and rebuild. We dance on the wire of OP and Bland crap. Either we are top 3 all shields lists, or all FW lists that are impossible to actually collect.

I would welcome us losing our +1 to Invulns if it means we get an actually diverse play style that doesn't depend on silly 3-4 hundred dollar units, or a list build of all shields and no actual fun gameplay.

If we stray into OPness with D4 axes, and the other madness that has been suggested here, we will just be part of the problem.

Surprised there haven't been more leaks or even "leaks" yet, if you know what I mean...

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Surprised there haven't been more leaks or even "leaks" yet, if you know what I mean...

Too early, the leaks will start about 2 weeks before the pre order, so they can build the hype up without having time to enthusiasm to cool.

WHC says codex now delayed until "early 2022" due to shipping problems :(

Twilight Pathways wrote:
WHC says codex now delayed until "early 2022" due to shipping problems :(

So the Shadowthrone box is still supposed to come out in december. Do the shadowthrone boxes come with a codex or not?

Tiberias wrote:

Twilight Pathways wrote:
WHC says codex now delayed until "early 2022" due to shipping problems :(

So the Shadowthrone box is still supposed to come out in december. Do the shadowthrone boxes come with a codex or not?

I think it's implied they don't, when the TS and GK boxed set came out they didn't have codices in the baseline box, correct?

 Grimskul wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

Twilight Pathways wrote:
WHC says codex now delayed until "early 2022" due to shipping problems :(

So the Shadowthrone box is still supposed to come out in december. Do the shadowthrone boxes come with a codex or not?

I think it's implied they don't, when the TS and GK boxed set came out they didn't have codices in the baseline box, correct?

I think you are right. Well, that's mildly annoying....

Tiberias wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

Twilight Pathways wrote:
WHC says codex now delayed until "early 2022" due to shipping problems :(

So the Shadowthrone box is still supposed to come out in december. Do the shadowthrone boxes come with a codex or not?

I think it's implied they don't, when the TS and GK boxed set came out they didn't have codices in the baseline box, correct?

I think you are right. Well, that's mildly annoying....

This wouldn't be a problem if they moved to a digital subscription system for rules...

Audustum wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

Twilight Pathways wrote:
WHC says codex now delayed until "early 2022" due to shipping problems :(

So the Shadowthrone box is still supposed to come out in december. Do the shadowthrone boxes come with a codex or not?

I think it's implied they don't, when the TS and GK boxed set came out they didn't have codices in the baseline box, correct?

I think you are right. Well, that's mildly annoying....

This wouldn't be a problem if they moved to a digital subscription system for rules...

Shhh! Are you crazy? You can't suggest logical and useful solutions like that. It's GW we're talking about here.
They are behind a few years on these things...you'll just startle them and then they'll release another primaris lieutenant out of stress reflex!

The problem is that even with a digital subscription service, I can see them getting really greedy and pricing it at absurd monthly levels given how they are pushing Warhammer + at the moment.

 Grimskul wrote:
The problem is that even with a digital subscription service, I can see them getting really greedy and pricing it at absurd monthly levels given how they are pushing Warhammer + at the moment.

I mean... your talking about a company that saw they were selling digital codices for less money then physical books so they raised the price of their digital codices...

 Ordana wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
The problem is that even with a digital subscription service, I can see them getting really greedy and pricing it at absurd monthly levels given how they are pushing Warhammer + at the moment.

I mean... your talking about a company that saw they were selling digital codices for less money then physical books so they raised the price of their digital codices...

And then promptly got rid of them for 9th ed. At least direct sale of digital codices at least.

Because they thought that it would stop piracy.
I guess they never heard of things like "cameras" and "pdfs"....

 Thairne wrote:
Because they thought that it would stop piracy.
I guess they never heard of things like "cameras" and "pdfs"....

I mean they have potato camera leaks of their rulesets so it wouldn't surprise me if they thought everyone still uses old Nokia cellphones lol.

Tiberias wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

Twilight Pathways wrote:
WHC says codex now delayed until "early 2022" due to shipping problems :(

So the Shadowthrone box is still supposed to come out in december. Do the shadowthrone boxes come with a codex or not?

I think it's implied they don't, when the TS and GK boxed set came out they didn't have codices in the baseline box, correct?

I think you are right. Well, that's mildly annoying....

This wouldn't be a problem if they moved to a digital subscription system for rules...

Shhh! Are you crazy? You can't suggest logical and useful solutions like that. It's GW we're talking about here.
They are behind a few years on these things...you'll just startle them and then they'll release another primaris lieutenant out of stress reflex!

Okay, I got a real and genuine laugh out of the 'release another primaris lieutenant' line.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Thairne wrote:
Because they thought that it would stop piracy.
I guess they never heard of things like "cameras" and "pdfs"....

My honest opinion is that they stopped them to try to force people to sign up for their app.

Well a birdie from the inside told me its really the piracy thing. Piracy was the foremost reason.
And then came the app... which you can tell, is so bad and rushed that it ain't even funny.

But this is hardly custodes tactics talk, so...

With the new delays I honestly don't know whether to laugh or cry. It's so blatant at this point. If you don't buy our special box set now (which we have ZERO trouble with shipping on) you'll need to wait until likely March to see your codex. (Which we have difficulty with shipping).

It's times like this I am happy that Battlescribe and Wahapedia exist.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
With the new delays I honestly don't know whether to laugh or cry. It's so blatant at this point. If you don't buy our special box set now (which we have ZERO trouble with shipping on) you'll need to wait until likely March to see your codex. (Which we have difficulty with shipping).

It's times like this I am happy that Battlescribe and Wahapedia exist.

the box sets don't have the codex.

i bought hexfire, the TS vs GK one, it did NOT have the codexes, just a small pamphlet with the new narrative rules for the hexfire campaign, nothing for the units themselves.

also, shipping plastic sprue boxes form the UK =/= shipping books printed in china. thats two different supply line on which problems might occour.

so, the box will drop for christmas, but it will drop without our 9th ed rules.

xerxeskingofking wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
With the new delays I honestly don't know whether to laugh or cry. It's so blatant at this point. If you don't buy our special box set now (which we have ZERO trouble with shipping on) you'll need to wait until likely March to see your codex. (Which we have difficulty with shipping).

It's times like this I am happy that Battlescribe and Wahapedia exist.

the box sets don't have the codex.

i bought hexfire, the TS vs GK one, it did NOT have the codexes, just a small pamphlet with the new narrative rules for the hexfire campaign, nothing for the units themselves.

also, shipping plastic sprue boxes form the UK =/= shipping books printed in china. thats two different supply line on which problems might occour.

so, the box will drop for christmas, but it will drop without our 9th ed rules.

That's even sillier. How then are GSC supposed to actually play their new units? Or Custodes play their new champion? I assume these units will be non-allowable at competitions until said books are released?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
That's even sillier. How then are GSC supposed to actually play their new units? Or Custodes play their new champion? I assume these units will be non-allowable at competitions until said books are released?

*shrug*

clearly, the original plan was to have the codexes out at the same time. It remains to be seen if they push out a "get you by" FAQ/index with statlines and points costs for the two new models or you'll just have to "counts as" a shield cap for a few months.

we'll just have to wait and see.

whats the best 2x telamon list out there right now? im so torn on how to do it.

I sort of want to go:

2 tele
2 gladius

and then 3x2 sagittarum and with Trajan and a bikecap thats all the points basically. But I feel its too thin. can't hold places. Even If I go shield guards over saggitarum I think ill struggle to score primaries and other stuff.

so now im leaning towards

trajan
vex -1 to hit (I hate that I can't fit this in the dread list to babysit the sagittrum)
2x tele
3x3 sagittarum
3x3 guards (2xspear, 1 swordboard. Could be all swordboard, though)

Basically, I just feel its sorough to fit in that second telamon. I have never really played with two and I feel they are not worth it. 40kstats says otherwise, though, so I want to learn the archetype : )

Any tips or comments?

btw: are 2x5 sisters not good artm (guess they crumble to ork flyers)? dont seem to see them that much in meta lists.

Buy the box if you want it. The datasheet for the new units will be included.

All GW models come with a datasheet in their box nowadays.

FW doesnt, but wasnt expecting any FW changes anyway. If we get any updates to FW it will be through an update after the codex drops.

THEY SHOULD include 40k FW custodes datasheets into our 9th codex, but they wont, cause they are greedy gakkers.

Also, what is the best load out for telemons? I see them with arrachnus and fist mostly. sometimes penitent. What about twin arrachnus?

Scoundrel80 wrote:
Also, what is the best load out for telemons? I see them with arrachnus and fist mostly. sometimes penitent. What about twin arrachnus?

never twin arachnus.

The combat threat of the fist is so much considering its a 15pt discount. That and eternal penitent makes them real scary- if they've only got guns, they arent a real threat.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Buy the box if you want it. The datasheet for the new units will be included.

All GW models come with a datasheet in their box nowadays.

FW doesnt, but wasnt expecting any FW changes anyway. If we get any updates to FW it will be through an update after the codex drops.

THEY SHOULD include 40k FW custodes datasheets into our 9th codex, but they wont, cause they are greedy gakkers.

The inbox data sheets are usually invalidated in the first month, or round of day one changes. Honestly, who even goes by those?

As for FW I think this will be a very "telling" codex. We are the sole faction in the game where the literal majority of our units are FW, or non-codex units such as "Valarian and Aleya".

If they actually decide to make the book FW exclusionary, that would be a major F You to the player base, not to mention the Competitive side of the house.

I think they have to bend the knee on allowing us a FW update in the book. Or at the very least a day 1 FW CA pamphlet that goes with the book.

I'm sorry but there will be no forgeworld model datasheets in our new codex - that's just not how it works.

Would it be nice if it did? yes, obviously.

Forgeworld models are not for sale in GW shops or on the GW website, they will not be listed or likely even pictured in our codex.

It is stupid but it's also how their business model works.

I suspect we will get an FAQ update to the FW rules if something is totally out of whack but don't waste your time wishlisting for FW in the codex.

Then can we safely assume the box set is worthless until the codex comes out?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Then can we safely assume the box set is worthless until the codex comes out?

Well unless you are just starting out and have a buddy who wants to start GSC to share the box. Or unless you really, really like the new blade champion model and want to have it as soon as possible.....yeah, not worth it imo.

The box may be not worth it, but it's certainly not worthless. The models and the rules are separate. Some people enjoy the new models and may get them for the purpose of collecting/painting and won't care about the rules.

I hate to say this, but the lack of "leaks" is concerning. Every day when (Insert Space Marine or Ork group here) were being released it was another Teased rule release, oh look at what these new Commandos/Gravis guys can do! This new rule should be fun for you to implement!

Honestly, the only reason I want to see a codex is to see if they add any new Sub Factions to Custodes, so I can begin working on new paint schemes.

Yeah... I'm also getting a bit worried about the lack of leaks. Ugh. I really hope we don't get pushed back :-(

again, with the GK/TS release, we got almost no infomation right up until a week or two before pre-orders went live. assuming GW have their internal security up to scratch, i would expect the same, with a burst of new articles about us and the GSC, followed rapidly by the pre-orders of the new codex. we might get a few leaks when the box set drops but basically GW will start the hype train when they want to, to maximise hype for the launch.

What hype? Custodes/GSC are easily the least looked forward to release of 9th. There are more Custodes players now because they are top 10, but still. It's not like they are Astartes or a completely fresh rebuild of Eldar/Harly.

I understand business needs to make business decisions but this is baffling. Only GW does this. Every other major media corp can't wait to start showing off their deals right now for black Friday. You don't maximize sales or interest by revealing the things able to be bought AFTER the buyer stampede. The hottest time to sell this crap is RIGHT NOW. November 1st-December 25th. After that everyone is either broke, or saving up after blowing all the money on Christmas. But GW is like, no, we are gonna delay EVERY tid bit of possible sales boosting info until "early 2022" which likely means March. When Nobody is buying.

Seriously? thats a truly crazy analysis, Imo, in regards to a company who has just tripled income and stock value in a year, basically. its a bit lower now, but id say they have their strategy dialed in.

also, why would you say cut/gsc is the least expected book of the year? or do you just mean its the one you expect the least? because id say custodes is super popular and gsc is a nice, cool niche faction that everybody I know loves to see get some love. So.. whats your point? except from your usual agenda of random James Workshop hate.

Scoundrel80 wrote:
Seriously? thats a truly crazy analysis, Imo, in regards to a company who has just tripled income and stock value in a year, basically. its a bit lower now, but id say they have their strategy dialed in.

also, why would you say cut/gsc is the least expected book of the year? or do you just mean its the one you expect the least? because id say custodes is super popular and gsc is a nice, cool niche faction that everybody I know loves to see get some love. So.. whats your point? except from your usual agenda of random James Workshop hate.

Custodes was so popular on its initial release GW struggled to meet orders if I recall correctly and that was before supply issues, COVID and BREXIT. So yeah, I'd agree we're fairly popular.

I'd also agree that they're super good about controlling leaks though so we won't see anything for awhile.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
What hype? Custodes/GSC are easily the least looked forward to release of 9th. There are more Custodes players now because they are top 10, but still. It's not like they are Astartes or a completely fresh rebuild of Eldar/Harly.

I understand business needs to make business decisions but this is baffling. Only GW does this. Every other major media corp can't wait to start showing off their deals right now for black Friday. You don't maximize sales or interest by revealing the things able to be bought AFTER the buyer stampede. The hottest time to sell this crap is RIGHT NOW. November 1st-December 25th. After that everyone is either broke, or saving up after blowing all the money on Christmas. But GW is like, no, we are gonna delay EVERY tid bit of possible sales boosting info until "early 2022" which likely means March. When Nobody is buying.

Why would they advertise deals now for a product they physically, literally cannot get into customers hands until next year? thats just going to lead to people getting bored of waiting and wanting to cancel pre-orders. much better to tell them that its not happening, and let them spend the money they were primed to give you on another of your products. Speaking of which, their are not pushing Custodes right now, because they are pushing something else right now, namely Black Templars, which are the Current New Hotness(tm). They want you to spend that black Friday money on those guys, or one of the big army deal box sets, or on the new AOS stuff, or anything really. It doesn't matter too much which plastic crack you buy.

If youre a pure custodes player, with no intrest in the rest of GW's offerings...then it doesnt matter when you buy the codex, because custodes players are pretty much guaranteed to buy the codex when its released, no matter what time of year it is. So, no need to time it to the "cash-happy" periods of the year.

Also, GW, having limited production capability (in an absolute sense of "unable to just magic products out of thin air on demand", rather than anything pandemic related), spread their releases out over the year. SOMEONE is always going to get releases in the "low" points of the calendar. Why not us? For whatever logistical reason, they cant get the codexes out by christmas, so they replan, slot it into the release schedule where they ARE able to ship it, and move on.

Hey folks,

tomorrow I'll have a friendly competitive match. Possible opponents are DG, Sisters, Drukhari, Nids, Crons, IG. I need to bring a more or less TAC list, but I also want to retire the 8th ed codex with a stylish bang. Would you please help me choose? First is a 4 dread of my own second is the gameology custodes list.

List A - 4 dreads
SK Patrol
Allarus capt, lockwarden, stasis oubliette
Strategic mastermind SC
Barebones inquisitor psyker
2x4 shield guard
2 eternal penitent galatus
2 eternal penitent telemon
Pallas
5 venatari

List B - Gameology
SK Patrol
2 SC on bike (1 tanky, 1 semi tanky)
3 shield guard
Magnifica vexilla
2x3 Venatari
2 eternal penitent telemon
ARES

What is the point of taking a flag in the second list? It can't keep up with anything but the Shieldy bois and will be mostly useless for the game if it's just guarding the back field.

The pallas in the first list also serves no real purpose. A unit of 5 Venetari will get mulched pretty quickly, better to drop the pallas and get two squads of 3. Also, 2x4 shield guard? Ask yourself what do you see them doing? Thats a lot to pay for some back field objectives. I'd say list two, but that's just me.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
What is the point of taking a flag in the second list? It can't keep up with anything but the Shieldy bois and will be mostly useless for the game if it's just guarding the back field.

The pallas in the first list also serves no real purpose. A unit of 5 Venetari will get mulched pretty quickly, better to drop the pallas and get two squads of 3. Also, 2x4 shield guard? Ask yourself what do you see them doing? Thats a lot to pay for some back field objectives. I'd say list two, but that's just me.

The ARES is so physically big and has such huge range you can generally park a flag next to it and not have an issue. Goonhammer noted the sheer durability the combo gives the ARES.

The Ares is a floating BB. It's not weak to shooting, it's weak to massed melee death squads. Any good melee elite unit can down one or at least lock it into melee for almost zero cost. And then the entire time it's earning you zero value. A squad of wytches can drop it to it's lowest bracket in a single turn. Don't fall for it. It's a 500pt distraction carnifex.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The Ares is a floating BB. It's not weak to shooting, it's weak to massed melee death squads. Any good melee elite unit can down one or at least lock it into melee for almost zero cost. And then the entire time it's earning you zero value. A squad of wytches can drop it to it's lowest bracket in a single turn. Don't fall for it. It's a 500pt distraction carnifex.

The Ares is an 'Aircraft'.
Unless its hovering, you'd be hard pressed to try and charge it.

I want to start a nid army more fun than compeditive
i have custodes gard and daro angels alredy i would like more monster mash type one unit of give guard centered on a dimacharon
Any list help

KGYM wrote:
Hey folks,

tomorrow I'll have a friendly competitive match. Possible opponents are DG, Sisters, Drukhari, Nids, Crons, IG. I need to bring a more or less TAC list, but I also want to retire the 8th ed codex with a stylish bang. Would you please help me choose? First is a 4 dread of my own second is the gameology custodes list.

List A - 4 dreads
SK Patrol
Allarus capt, lockwarden, stasis oubliette
Strategic mastermind SC
Barebones inquisitor psyker
2x4 shield guard
2 eternal penitent galatus
2 eternal penitent telemon
Pallas
5 venatari

List B - Gameology
SK Patrol
2 SC on bike (1 tanky, 1 semi tanky)
3 shield guard
Magnifica vexilla
2x3 Venatari
2 eternal penitent telemon
ARES

I like list 1 but it swop to 2x3 guards as bulgryn says and probably cut the inquisitor too even though I feel he's pretty neat tech. id swoop the pallas for infantry too. thing is, when you run 2x galatus and 2x telemon (which I love) you want them to do work and in my games, in order to get the most out of my telemons they need to deal dam in melee too. So they rarely hold the backline late game very often and therefore I need more guys.

also, Trajan is just so good. dont you miss him? : )

list 2 look pretty cool too, actually. not happy with the ares in general, though.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/25/troops-are-better-than-ever-how-the-next-three-codexes-improve-your-units/


Some new rules.
Spears went to str 7 and d2
Sword Str 6 and d2
I dont know what i should think…

Gesundheit wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/25/troops-are-better-than-ever-how-the-next-three-codexes-improve-your-units/


Some new rules.
Spears went to str 7 and d2
Sword Str 6 and d2
I dont know what i should think…

I know what i think why would i ever take a spear? it only gives +1 S

but every custodian has at least Ld 11 thats pretty good.

 nordsturmking wrote:

Gesundheit wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/25/troops-are-better-than-ever-how-the-next-three-codexes-improve-your-units/


Some new rules.
Spears went to str 7 and d2
Sword Str 6 and d2
I dont know what i should think…

i know what i think why would i ever take a spear? it only gives +1 S

Depends on price and if the spear gets a shooting change too I guess?

Just hope this buff to the sword isn't to make up for the fact that they've made the shield completely useless...

 nordsturmking wrote:

Gesundheit wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/25/troops-are-better-than-ever-how-the-next-three-codexes-improve-your-units/


Some new rules.
Spears went to str 7 and d2
Sword Str 6 and d2
I dont know what i should think…

I know what i think why would i ever take a spear? it only gives +1 S

but every custodian has at least Ld 11 thats pretty good.

Flat 2 dmg is nice, but I agree. With just this info, spears are not good.

I very much hope that spears get some sort of special rule to make them worthwhile. Shield guard are cool and all, but it would be nice to breathe back some life into our most recognizable weapon option.

All of our boys going to ld11 is kinda funny, but being ld8 never made any sense anyway.

I mainly run sword & board Custodes so it's nice to see the shooting of the sentinel blades now matches and the +1S is terrific.

I guess they aren't too many T6 targets out there to justify the Spear though.

So I went with the Ares list, not gonna do that again to my friends, I lost so much respect in like 30 mins.

Also, sentinel blade melee profile looks tasty.

Really hoping the spears get a sweep profile, that would balance out against the buffed swords.

Not a big fan of damage 2, the ammount of neg 1 damage in the game often makes it worse than D3, at best I think its a sidegrade.

Really hoping the axes don't get the D2 treatment......

Axes need d3 to matter. Or be cheap

Really hope spears have some other type of buff otherwise no one will ever take them. S7 is in a bad spot compared to S6 or S8.

Spears have greater range
rapid fire instead of pistols
deal more damage to t6 targets
probably cheaper compared to Sentinel/Storm

 Thairne wrote:
Spears have greater range
rapid fire instead of pistols
deal more damage to t6 targets
probably cheaper compared to Sentinel/Storm

Unless they are significantly cheaper, none of that will compare to the +1 armor (and possible 4++ if that's no longer army wide) that the sword and shield brings. Survivability trumps offensive power in the vast majority of situations in 9e from more own experience. And the swords are already S6 so spears will only ever be better against T6 MCs, which is niche compared to all the T3 and T4 units both weapons will be equally good at.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 Thairne wrote:
Spears have greater range
rapid fire instead of pistols
deal more damage to t6 targets
probably cheaper compared to Sentinel/Storm

Unless they are significantly cheaper, none of that will compare to the +1 armor (and possible 4++ if that's no longer army wide) that the sword and shield brings. Survivability trumps offensive power in the vast majority of situations in 9e from more own experience. And the swords are already S6 so spears will only ever be better against T6 MCs, which is niche compared to all the T3 and T4 units both weapons will be equally good at.

T6 and T7. T6 ain't common, but T7 is moderately common.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 Thairne wrote:
Spears have greater range
rapid fire instead of pistols
deal more damage to t6 targets
probably cheaper compared to Sentinel/Storm

Unless they are significantly cheaper, none of that will compare to the +1 armor (and possible 4++ if that's no longer army wide) that the sword and shield brings. Survivability trumps offensive power in the vast majority of situations in 9e from more own experience. And the swords are already S6 so spears will only ever be better against T6 MCs, which is niche compared to all the T3 and T4 units both weapons will be equally good at.

T6 and T7. T6 ain't common, but T7 is moderately common.

True, there are quite a lot of T7 dreadnoughts running around, but I nonetheless agree with the survivability argument. If given the option, I'd always go for higher survivability and trade some damage potential for it, especially since we are such a low model cound army.

Again, for now I remain cautiously optimistic that spears get some extra rule that makes them worthwhile.

Interesting that they didn't post axe specification. Which would be d2 weapon too.

superninja_834 wrote:
Interesting that they didn't post axe specification. Which would be d2 weapon too.

Here's hoping not, we need some variety in weapon profiles!

An army of damage 2 weapons is very easily countered and has no answers to things like dreads, drukhari fat boy lists, ork vehicles, deathwing, thousand sons and deathguard to name a few of the current meta lists with -1 damage.

Profiles between it and the new spear have to vary a bit more.

Make the Axe 7-10 pts and flat 3
OR if this is too badass: flat 3 against t7 or higher and flat 2 against everything else.

The spear change is pretty cool. S7 means that Piercing Strike (1 CP) got pretty good against T4,T7 and higher units

I agree that the spears seem lackluster.
I was just listing their advantages... I definately would still prefer Storm Shields for almost every situation. Which is kinda sad, but kinda neat. since I have 9 Shield Guards and 0 Spear Guards
But then again, we dont know the cost of S/B compared to spears, it could be significant.
Or there is some further incentive to mix and match, it doesnt need to be either/or still.

well, if the +1 to wound strat is still spears only then the good ol' dilemma of whether or not to include a few spears guys here and there I stilt a thing, I guess.

for some reason flat 2 is a little tame to me. I know flat 3 is too much and d3+1 is too. rolling a d2 in 40k is not a thing, so d2+1 is out of the question. but with flat 2 we are going to bounce off dreadnaughts, DG and all the other -1 dam in the game so hard. I mean, yeah, I hated d3 dam on all our stuff but at leat you could go into a redemptor with 3-4 dudes, roll a ton of d3 and spike out a few dam2 results here and there. from now on all of that would just be ones.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also, I dont agree on the premise that spears have no targets. they have plenty, Imo. dreads and a lot of tanks being wounded on 4s is decent. and something we've lacked. I mean, going into an immolator with 3 vertus bikes and having it all bounce of on fives for the wound roll was never very satisfying.

ability:
On a wound roll of 4+, add 1 to the damage characteristic of this weapon.
That is essentially D2+1.

I dont think spears should be heavy hitters, but D2 on spears definately sreams D3 axes to me.
At least you dont roll a 1/2 and scratch a marine now.

The rumours say that bikes get a +1 to wound instead of the reroll, no? So with S6, assuming that stays, you effectively have S8 on them.
Troops with S8 would be crazy, even for Stodes. That is for heavy hitters.

 Thairne wrote:
ability:
On a wound roll of 4+, add 1 to the damage characteristic of this weapon.
That is essentially D2+1.

I dont think spears should be heavy hitters, but D2 on spears definately sreams D3 axes to me.
At least you dont roll a 1/2 and scratch a marine now.

The rumours say that bikes get a +1 to wound instead of the reroll, no? So with S6, assuming that stays, you effectively have S8 on them.
Troops with S8 would be crazy, even for Stodes. That is for heavy hitters.

It’s only Dd2+1 if you wound on a 1+.

If you wound on a 4+, it’s D3.

Tiberias wrote:

True, there are quite a lot of T7 dreadnoughts running around.

Sadly dreadnoughts have Duty Eternal. Wounding T7 on 4s with BS2/AP3 is certainly not nothing (min unit of 3 spear guard averages 6 wounds). Problem is there may not be enough worthwhile T7 targets in the meta for it to matter.

 JNAProductions wrote:
It’s only Dd2+1 if you wound on a 1+.

If you wound on a 4+, it’s D3.

Well, I'm bad at math.
But it could make D2 swords, D2/3 spears and D3 axes. Numbers need tweaks, but you catch what I mean

I'll be honest, if they buff the Dagger to pierce saves, I don't care what damage the axes do. Sag Troops just became numero uno on the depth chart.

I Do care about lances though, because I love me my 12-15 bikers.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/29/adeptus-custodes-crush-foes-with-devastating-battle-stances-in-the-new-codex/

Do these things look kinda underwhelming to anyone else?
Firstly, that article is badly written. I had to read it like 3 times to get how they work.
Then the forced activation each turn, the no going back etc. makes them rather stiff... that and the fact that they seem rather gimmick-y (with the army wide application) to me, especially compared to all-around useful stuff like SM doctrines, makes them look somewhat underwhelming so far.

Can almost guarantee you'll have ways to manipulate them. Seems interesting and at least somewhat cerebral.

They certainly seem interesting, the fixed order and not being able to stay in one is a little annoying/unrealistic but likely needed for balance reasons.
Anything that you get to choose on a battle by battle basis is good and adds alot of interest/tactics, the fact that you choose in your command phase is a bit of a downer on any defensive ones you may want up for the first turn.

Weird how the article seemed to think custodes were getting an extra pip of damage when they are just changing to average damage as far as we know.

How exactly do the martial stances work? Are you required to choose stance #1 and then the 2nd stance automatically follows on the following turn? Or do you choose 1 of the 2 stances when you activate and then can only use 1 of the 2 options in each stance for a total of 3 activations during the game?

Iggy88 wrote:
How exactly do the martial stances work? Are you required to choose stance #1 and then the 2nd stance automatically follows on the following turn? Or do you choose 1 of the 2 stances when you activate and then can only use 1 of the 2 options in each stance for a total of 3 activations during the game?

This was what I wondered too. Do you get both benefits, or pick one?

I think they definitely could have worded this more intuitively. Classic GW word gumbo lol.

From my reading it works as follows:

Command phase turn 1: Choose one of the stances from your primary Ka'tar

Command Phase turn 2: Choose the second stand from your primary Ka'tar OR advance to your secondary Ka'tar and choose a stance from it.

Command phase turn 3: If you are in your primary then Advance to your secondary Ka'tar and choose a stance from it.
Or if you are in your secondary then change to the second stance from it OR advance to your Tertiary Ka'tar and choose a stance from it.

Command Phase turn 4: If you are in you secondary then change to the second stance from it OR advance to your Tertiary Ka'tar and choose a stance from it.
Or if you are in your Tertiary change to the second stance from it.

Command phase turn 5: If you are in your Secondary then advance to your Tertiary Ka'tar and choose a stance from it.
Or if you are in your Tertiary change to the second stance from it.
Or if you are in the second stance of your Tertiary Ka'tar then you are no longer in any stance.

As best as I can tell those are the options.

It seems kinda interesting but they called it ka'tah? Like Kata which exist in Karate and are a sequence of movements?
It's funny but kinda on the nose even for 40k.

I mean, correct me because I'm likely wrong, but it looks like they just face smashed the key board for the names, and gave Custodes SM Doctrines that we HAVE to use.

Also, Calling the Cannon police on the "Custodes are probably the deadliest fighters in the Galaxy" claim. Lilith and whats his name, who sits on a chair made from literal Custodes, would like a word.

The rules text on that is egregious, the effects are lame, and it's not something literally anyone was asking for. Huge miss for me. More rules is not the answer, better rules is the answer.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I mean, correct me because I'm likely wrong, but it looks like they just face smashed the key board for the names, and gave Custodes SM Doctrines that we HAVE to use.

Also, Calling the Cannon police on the "Custodes are probably the deadliest fighters in the Galaxy" claim. Lilith and whats his name, who sits on a chair made from literal Custodes, would like a word.

I think you mean drazahr? I think GW meant to say like custodes are the most deadly baseline fighters in the galaxy....special characters excluded, dunno...

What seems very cool is that in dacstarai (I'm all for fantasy names, but that sounds dumb) stance 2, you can get +1 Attack but get - 1 dmg on your weapons, BUT it's worded that when a unit fights it CAN use that ability.

So one unit who is engaged with an enemy horde can use it and another unit who is in combat with a multi wound enemy can choose not to use it to get flat2dmg for example. Pretty cool flexibility.

Edit: reducing the enemy pile in and consolidate to essentially 1" can also be really, really powerful.
The more read these, the more I like them honestly....the names themselves are kinda wonky, but oh well...

I like them. It's a bit counter to Custodes fluff to me (we should be more individualized) but they're a cute idea. They're a little underwhelming though. The bonus to advance is the obvious go-to for T1 and then you really would just rather be in the third one forever. An extra 1A per-model isn't really necessary. Our base attacks are plenty high and we have good access to Hurricane Bolters for hordes.

That said, not awful. Note the article doesn't say there are only three. We pick three, but I'm betting there's 6 total. The article also says that certain Shield-Hosts favor certain stances, so expect sub-faction buffs to a stance if your detachment is all a certain Shield-Host.

I dunno, IMO the plethora of "cute ideas" is an example of what's wrong with the game right now. This is a classic example of broad but shallow game design - let's stick some more rules on top of all the other rules, which are very limited in how you can use them and have rather limited effects overall, instead of creating a deep rules system where players can create the complexity themselves. More junk to remember, more mental load, but not ultimately more satisfying gameplay. I don't want to win games because my opponent forgot I had the ability to limit his pile-in once per game if I chose things correctly so that Venus would align with Jupiter during the full moon.

It's also a huge miss for making the rules match the army. Custodes are supposed to be the ultimate individualists. Each one is supposed to fight on his own, and their great strength is the adaptability that gives them, unconstrained by the chain of command or rigid tactical requirements. This is opposite of that, it's an army-wide, turn-specific, ordered set of rules you have to set up before the game starts and then proceed through them. It's closest analogue is the Necron protocols. It's just a total miss for what the army is supposed to be IMO.

I guess I'm just not the intended audience for 40k any more.

Huge miss. Why would we need this? We don't need more rules, just update our stats and strats to be on par with other 9th edition stuff. One of the things I love about Custodes is the simplicity. You win by playing your few models well, not through gimmicks.
I am not looking forward to this level of book keeping for marginal benefits. I'd almost prefer just picking one of these to be my special rule for the whole game.

While I can sympathize with the complaints about rules bloat (though I personally like the amount of rules), you do realize we were known throughout the tournament circuit as the 'gotcha' army already, right? Nick Nanavati even commented on it on stream. Our 8th edition incarnation is basically a bag of gotcha stratagems and a meat wall. It's not guaranteed GW will double down on this, but it's certainly possible.

Ugh. I am NOT impressed with these, and even less impressed with the weird finicky way in which we have to add even more micro-managing into the game.

I don't know why I was hoping for Custodes to somehow magically be the: "Simply strong, simply good, simple" faction within 9th edition... but I really was hoping for just great stats, very few special rules, and enough customization to give us options without making things complicated.

I'm definitely not getting that particular wish this Christmas :-(

Special rules are fine in the abstract. The kind I object to are the ones that are super specific and super fiddly and don't even do that much anyway, while also being completely at odds with the lore behind the army. And this is a prime example of all of those things.

If they want to give Custodes the ability to trade damage for more attacks...just do that. These famous individualists and paragons of self-reliance and tactical adaptability shouldn't need to write their tactics down on a piece of paper and decide ahead of time when they are going to pull it out of their pockets to remind themselves they can do it, and hope that the time they decided is the time they need it.

It's the literal opposite of how Custodes should work. Pure Custodes should have rules that give them greater flexibility, not greater rigidity. Maybe something along the lines of "Once per turn, when you use a stratagem, you can either chose to reduce the CP cost of that stratagem by 1, or you can choose to use that stratagem even if you have already used it once this phase on a different unit." It's simple, it's powerful, it doesn't add rules bloat, and it allows people to figure out the best way to use it themselves. That's just off the top of my head, there's all sorts of other directions you could go in too that would be better than this direction.

After a quick re-read, it seems like this could be, COULD be, useful. If we are facing a troops only horde of GSC or Nids. Anything with lots of 1W infantry. Otherwise, who cares? I'll keep my 5 attacks with the axe against most 2W infantry, which is like half the imperium now, and several of the Zenos. I wouldn't take the trade of sacrificing damage for 1 extra attack if you gave me an extra Relic. It's so emblematic of absolutely everything wrong with the rules writing staff.

What were the literal things we wanted:

1. Better Horde defense. This is arguably worse now.
2. Better Psyker defense. Nothing yet, remains to be seen.
3. Better Anti-tank, maybe the Multi-attack profiles everyone seems to be getting now? This is the worst possible solution. Crappier attacks, that we have to use, like a Astartes chapter. This is basically the melee version of Devestator, Assault, and Tactical.

I cannot wait to see what we have to trade in return for this Broken down Saturn Mercury of a rules update.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
After a quick re-read, it seems like this could be, COULD be, useful. If we are facing a troops only horde of GSC or Nids. Anything with lots of 1W infantry. Otherwise, who cares? I'll keep my 5 attacks with the axe against most 2W infantry, which is like half the imperium now, and several of the Zenos. I wouldn't take the trade of sacrificing damage for 1 extra attack if you gave me an extra Relic. It's so emblematic of absolutely everything wrong with the rules writing staff.

What were the literal things we wanted:

1. Better Horde defense. This is arguably worse now.
2. Better Psyker defense. Nothing yet, remains to be seen.
3. Better Anti-tank, maybe the Multi-attack profiles everyone seems to be getting now? This is the worst possible solution. Crappier attacks, that we have to use, like a Astartes chapter. This is basically the melee version of Devestator, Assault, and Tactical.

I cannot wait to see what we have to trade in return for this Broken down Saturn Mercury of a rules update.

only 3 martial revealed, there are 6 in total and one of them includes psyky defense, 4+++ against mortal. For anti-tank...i would start grabing some calidius and contemptor. And i think sword and board contemptor would very likely become s8.

It's a hybrid between Necron protocols and combat doctrines lol.

So much book keeping too. This will cause pregame fog and waffling in events for sure.

Why not just "pick 3 of these unique and powerful abilities pregame that can only be used once per battle. You get to decide which one if any you use in your command phase and it lasts until your next command phase."

Done.

Nah, GW decides to make them two modes, which are numbered for some reason when you get to pick them out of numerical order, however the overall Kat'ar isn't numbered but specific ones are used sequentially.... Yea OK, that won't confuse anyone fast.

9th is a dumpster fire with these faction rules, it needs to remove ALL faction specific detachment rules IMHO and just go back to simple overall faction rules. Heck I even wish chapter tactic rules vanished, GW has demonstrated a total inability to balance them anyway so everyone basically plays the same ones in every faction already.

I was happy that GW included one of my ideas for rules (the -2 to pile in and consolidate is in my homebrew codex), and some of these are pretty nice on a select few units.

My aquillons are gonna love having the extra attack for example, as are any custodes going into DG cept for mabey the galatus.

Getting better advance rolls early on is amazing, and will help Dread host alot.

They also take the army into a a more techniqual skll level compared to previous, which will make the more skilled players stand out a bit more.


I like em.

I'm always coming back to the stance which can limit pile ins and consolidates. Correct me if I'm wrong but it also seems like a really handy tool against fight last abilities.

So, let's say I charge a unit which can make my guys fight last, but I position myself in a way where I put just one or two of my models juust within an inch of one enemy model of the unit.
So my opponent gets to fight first, meaning he'll also pile in first. Only being able to move 1" means that in the best case scenario only one enemy model will be able to hit my guys.

So in addition of being good against hordes and limiting your opponent at getting models towards an objective using pile ins and consolidate, it's also useful against fight last when you manage to position yourself carefully.

Imo this is the most powerful of these abilities.

Tiberias wrote:
I'm always coming back to the stance which can limit pile ins and consolidates. Correct me if I'm wrong but it also seems like a really handy tool against fight last abilities.

So, let's say I charge a unit which can make my guys fight last, but I position myself in a way where I put just one or two of my models juust within an inch of one enemy model of the unit.
So my opponent gets to fight first, meaning he'll also pile in first. Only being able to move 1" means that in the best case scenario only one enemy model will be able to hit my guys.

So in addition of being good against hordes and limiting your opponent at getting models towards an objective using pile ins and consolidate, it's also useful against fight last when you manage to position yourself carefully.

Imo this is the most powerful of these abilities.

Agreed, this seems like a very powerful ability and it has a ton of great uses that aren't obvious at first.