Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone

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**tneva82**

WisdomLS wrote:

In practice a fights first ability does very little, at best it means you always get the option to fight second either by getting second choice to fight in your opponents charge phase or by still being able to interrupt on your turn when forced to fight last. Not useless but certainly not as good as you would want it to be.

I just ran into issue where fight first did do something for opponent. Specifically if I charge with 2 units I pick one unit, then he picks his. Limited amount of damage I could do.

Maybe it's less of issues with custodians who can take dents better but basically if I charge with 2 units I'm fairly likely to lose one of my units before it gets to attack.

1 vs 1 it's indeed less meaningfull.

**WisdomLS**

It certainly can do something but that something is never "fight First" which is pretty funny given the name of the ability.....

**Thairne**

doesnt charging count as a "fights first" ability?
Which means if the Blade Champion gets charged, he gets to fight before the charger as the rules cancel them out and the defender has the first activation?

Which means the only way to fight before him (if your opponent doesnt let you) is to have him charge you and have a fights first/last ability. That and always being able to counteroffensive isn't weak at all.

But admittedly it is a really dumb rules quirk that charging can get you killed before you strike if the opponent just has any ability like this...

**Tiberias**

WisdomLS wrote:
My only question is what are his dimensions? Would a regular SC with just a sword and a helmet sanz plume be an acceptable stand-in?

In my opinion you'd need to do quite alot of work to a standard SC to make him a reasonable stand in.
With counts as and conversion there are two important things to keep in mind - firstly as you mentioned would be the dimensions of the model, which I imagine would be pretty similar to other custodes. Secondly is avoiding confusion for your opponents and making it clear what your conversions are.
The Blade champion stands out from other custodes by having a much more animated mobile pose and having lighter armour on his lower half.

I personally don't think a SC with a different helmet and a sentinel blade with the bolters cut off would be sufficient to make him stand out, perhaps some legs from a venetari would help sell it?

Tiberias wrote:
My current understanding is that in practice fight first and fight last just cancel each other out, so the fight phase proceeds with the standard priorities. So charging unit fights first or defending player chooses the first unit to fight if it is already an ongoing engagement. And you can interrupt als usual.

Unfortunately you're slightly off in your reading there. Fights first and fights last do indeed cancel each other out, further more all instances of firsts first cancel all instances of fights last.
The issue arises where they specify that charging is a "fights first ability" and thus gets cancelled as well.

If a model with fights first charges a unit that makes it fight last both units fight in the standard phase of combat and as it is the charging players turn the opponent gets to choose their unit to attack first.
In practice a fights first ability does very little, at best it means you always get the option to fight second either by getting second choice to fight in your opponents charge phase or by still being able to interrupt on your turn when forced to fight last. Not useless but certainly not as good as you would want it to be.

Oh, I'm glad that never came up in my games because I would have totally played that with the wrong reading. Thanks for clarifying.

Well, it's not bad having it on the blade champion, but I generally don't like the fact that fight last just cancels all instances of fight first.

Edit: As Thairne suggests, it does kinda mean that he's really good at being a deterrent from being charged? Only by units who have a fights last ability?(since those cancel each other out and the defending player gets to choose unit to fight first)
Does it work the same way when he just gets charged without any fight last coming into play?

**WisdomLS**

Thairne wrote:
doesnt charging count as a "fights first" ability?
Which means if the Blade Champion gets charged, he gets to fight before the charger as the rules cancel them out and the defender has the first activation?

Which means the only way to fight before him (if your opponent doesnt let you) is to have him charge you and have a fights first/last ability. That and always being able to counteroffensive isn't weak at all.

But admittedly it is a really dumb rules quirk that charging can get you killed before you strike if the opponent just has any ability like this...

Fights first and fights first don't cancel each other (fights first and fights last do) if you charge someone with fights first you both get to fight in the first step of combat in which the player whose turn it is gets to choose the first unit.

**Tiberias**

WisdomLS wrote:
Thairne wrote:
doesnt charging count as a "fights first" ability?
Which means if the Blade Champion gets charged, he gets to fight before the charger as the rules cancel them out and the defender has the first activation?

Which means the only way to fight before him (if your opponent doesnt let you) is to have him charge you and have a fights first/last ability. That and always being able to counteroffensive isn't weak at all.

But admittedly it is a really dumb rules quirk that charging can get you killed before you strike if the opponent just has any ability like this...

Fights first and fights first don't cancel each other (fights first and fights last do) if you charge someone with fights first you both get to fight in the first step of combat in which the player whose turn it is gets to choose the first unit.

Nvm my edit then. Those two interactions seem really counterintuitive. GW gets rid of initiative to "streamline" things and then they come up with these shenanigans.

**Thairne**

Oh. Well that makes him even more unattractive than I think he currently is...

**FezzikDaBullgryn**

I mean, with no shield, I am betting his save is 2+5++, possibly dropped to a 4++ with the +1 if we still have it, which is in question. If he's just a plain jane 5++, I see no difficulty in just mass shooting him off the board. This is kind of too little information to go off on, but without knowing his stats, oh well.

I don't see the value in him right now.

**tneva82**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I mean, with no shield, I am betting his save is 2+5++, possibly dropped to a 4++ with the +1 if we still have it, which is in question. If he's just a plain jane 5++, I see no difficulty in just mass shooting him off the board. This is kind of too little information to go off on, but without knowing his stats, oh well.

I don't see the value in him right now.

How much look out sir ignoring shooting you face O_o

**Tiberias**

I don't want to be overly optimistic, but I still think his rules are very good. He has good, versatile damage, good protection in melee, 6"heroic intervention and fight first, which might be situational but it's nice to have.

The only real problem I see now is cost and delivery. And both these aspects can only be assessed once we see the full codex. So I'll remain cautiously optimistic until then.

**Audustum**

So just to clarify the fight phase stuff for good, here is how it works in a nutshell:

You have 3 priorities every combat.

1. Fight First
2. Fight Normal
3. Fight Last

Charging does NOTHING except give you a Fight First priority. Fight First abilities also give you a Fight First priority. These do NOT stack to make some kind of super Fight First priority. No amount of Fight First's can get you past priority 1.

Similarly, getting hit with two Fight Last will not force you to priority 3. Fight Last does not stack.

Finally, Fight First and Fight Last will cancel each other out and just put you at priority 2.

As for who fights when, in priority 1 (Fight First) the ACTIVE player selects, then the DEFENDING player (if the defending player has any source of Fight First, if not, the active player simply activates all Fight First units in sequence).

In priority 2, this is reversed. The DEFENDING player activates first. Otherwise it is handled the same way as priority 1.

In priority 3, we use the same system as priority 1. The ACTIVE player activates first, then the defending player. Priority 3 has the added caveat that interrupt stratagems, such as Counter-Offensive, cannot be used on units fighting at priority 3.

**Thairne**

tneva82 wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I mean, with no shield, I am betting his save is 2+5++, possibly dropped to a 4++ with the +1 if we still have it, which is in question. If he's just a plain jane 5++, I see no difficulty in just mass shooting him off the board. This is kind of too little information to go off on, but without knowing his stats, oh well.

I don't see the value in him right now.

How much look out sir ignoring shooting you face O_o

I think the real question is how many points you want to invest in a (potentially slow) melee character (that can possibly get rekt if he charges) to footslog him up the board so he actually can do something :/
Right now, we just dont have the tools to make him work in almost any scenario. That might change in the new dex, but right now with what we know, I join the pessimists club.
The only scenario I could see him doing well in is a defensive position where another enemy character wants to go so you can HI into it. Otherwise... maybe as a horde clearer if he is cheaper than a freakin' jetbike, because these do the job well enough already with hurricane bolters and their melee without having delivery or protection problems.

**FezzikDaBullgryn**

So unless there is a named variant of this specific unit, which I am not certain of, I don't see how this unit does anything we are not already extremely good at. That's my point.

At best it's a variant model that opens up a fun new way of playing custodes.

At worst he's a completely useless and redundant model that does nothing and will likely never see the table in high level play.

I remain dubious until I see the actual statline and codex. He might boast a 8" move and have a strat that gives him a double charge/advance. Who knows?

**cuda1179**

WisdomLS wrote:
My only question is what are his dimensions? Would a regular SC with just a sword and a helmet sanz plume be an acceptable stand-in?

In my opinion you'd need to do quite alot of work to a standard SC to make him a reasonable stand in.
With counts as and conversion there are two important things to keep in mind - firstly as you mentioned would be the dimensions of the model, which I imagine would be pretty similar to other custodes. Secondly is avoiding confusion for your opponents and making it clear what your conversions are.
The Blade champion stands out from other custodes by having a much more animated mobile pose and having lighter armour on his lower half.

I personally don't think a SC with a different helmet and a sentinel blade with the bolters cut off would be sufficient to make him stand out, perhaps some legs from a venetari would help sell it?

I was thinking of using the legs and torso of one of the lighter armored AoS Stormcast with biker Custodes Head and shoulder pads, custodian guard arms, and a GK terminator sword.

**Audustum**

cuda1179 wrote:
WisdomLS wrote:
My only question is what are his dimensions? Would a regular SC with just a sword and a helmet sanz plume be an acceptable stand-in?

In my opinion you'd need to do quite alot of work to a standard SC to make him a reasonable stand in.
With counts as and conversion there are two important things to keep in mind - firstly as you mentioned would be the dimensions of the model, which I imagine would be pretty similar to other custodes. Secondly is avoiding confusion for your opponents and making it clear what your conversions are.
The Blade champion stands out from other custodes by having a much more animated mobile pose and having lighter armour on his lower half.

I personally don't think a SC with a different helmet and a sentinel blade with the bolters cut off would be sufficient to make him stand out, perhaps some legs from a venetari would help sell it?

I was thinking of using the legs and torso of one of the lighter armored AoS Stormcast with biker Custodes Head and shoulder pads, custodian guard arms, and a GK terminator sword.

The rule is always ask your TO, but if I was your TO/opponent I'd say that's awesome and rock on.

**leerm02**

I've actually got quite a few Stormcast to Custodes conversions, and so I salute your idea wholeheartedly!

**FezzikDaBullgryn**

Audustum wrote:
cuda1179 wrote:
WisdomLS wrote:
My only question is what are his dimensions? Would a regular SC with just a sword and a helmet sanz plume be an acceptable stand-in?

In my opinion you'd need to do quite alot of work to a standard SC to make him a reasonable stand in.
With counts as and conversion there are two important things to keep in mind - firstly as you mentioned would be the dimensions of the model, which I imagine would be pretty similar to other custodes. Secondly is avoiding confusion for your opponents and making it clear what your conversions are.
The Blade champion stands out from other custodes by having a much more animated mobile pose and having lighter armour on his lower half.

I personally don't think a SC with a different helmet and a sentinel blade with the bolters cut off would be sufficient to make him stand out, perhaps some legs from a venetari would help sell it?

I was thinking of using the legs and torso of one of the lighter armored AoS Stormcast with biker Custodes Head and shoulder pads, custodian guard arms, and a GK terminator sword.

The rule is always ask your TO, but if I was your TO/opponent I'd say that's awesome and rock on.

What percentage of the folks here do you personally believe "compete"? I would say the strong majority are casual, and the most competitive is a local hobby store tourney.

**iGuy91**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Audustum wrote:
cuda1179 wrote:
WisdomLS wrote:
My only question is what are his dimensions? Would a regular SC with just a sword and a helmet sanz plume be an acceptable stand-in?

In my opinion you'd need to do quite alot of work to a standard SC to make him a reasonable stand in.
With counts as and conversion there are two important things to keep in mind - firstly as you mentioned would be the dimensions of the model, which I imagine would be pretty similar to other custodes. Secondly is avoiding confusion for your opponents and making it clear what your conversions are.
The Blade champion stands out from other custodes by having a much more animated mobile pose and having lighter armour on his lower half.

I personally don't think a SC with a different helmet and a sentinel blade with the bolters cut off would be sufficient to make him stand out, perhaps some legs from a venetari would help sell it?

I was thinking of using the legs and torso of one of the lighter armored AoS Stormcast with biker Custodes Head and shoulder pads, custodian guard arms, and a GK terminator sword.

The rule is always ask your TO, but if I was your TO/opponent I'd say that's awesome and rock on.

What percentage of the folks here do you personally believe "compete"? I would say the strong majority are casual, and the most competitive is a local hobby store tourney.

I'd say nobody would really bother complaining about the conversions, as long as its clear what you're fielding. Its all GW product too.
I'd say probably only 20% of the hobby is hardcore competitive, 50% are probably occasionally visit a tournament. The rest play casual, and thats fine.

I swear though if we lose the +1 invuln, our codex is DOA.

**FezzikDaBullgryn**

I dunno, I'd give up the +1 Invuln for a sweeping attack or a x2 stength attack profile set,

Or give up the +1++ to make it a strat, and make our bikes 70ppm. Termies can be 60PPM

2+5++ is still wicked good, considering every model we have is likely 4-7 wounds, S/T5, and BS/WS 2+.

**Audustum**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Audustum wrote:
cuda1179 wrote:
WisdomLS wrote:
My only question is what are his dimensions? Would a regular SC with just a sword and a helmet sanz plume be an acceptable stand-in?

In my opinion you'd need to do quite alot of work to a standard SC to make him a reasonable stand in.
With counts as and conversion there are two important things to keep in mind - firstly as you mentioned would be the dimensions of the model, which I imagine would be pretty similar to other custodes. Secondly is avoiding confusion for your opponents and making it clear what your conversions are.
The Blade champion stands out from other custodes by having a much more animated mobile pose and having lighter armour on his lower half.

I personally don't think a SC with a different helmet and a sentinel blade with the bolters cut off would be sufficient to make him stand out, perhaps some legs from a venetari would help sell it?

I was thinking of using the legs and torso of one of the lighter armored AoS Stormcast with biker Custodes Head and shoulder pads, custodian guard arms, and a GK terminator sword.

The rule is always ask your TO, but if I was your TO/opponent I'd say that's awesome and rock on.

What percentage of the folks here do you personally believe "compete"? I would say the strong majority are casual, and the most competitive is a local hobby store tourney.

'Here' as in the hobby or as in Dakkadakka? For the hobby. I think most players will wind up at a GT now and then with aims to 'go 3-2' or 'win their pod' or something like that. For Dakka, this is like casual play central (as opposed to B&S which is narrative central) so it's probably a hefty minority here that's competitive. Hardcore competitive players are mostly on Discords (Art of War's and 40k TTS's have decent numbers I think) and r/warhammercompetitive.

**Mad_Proctologist**

It's really disappointing we're ~6 weeks out from our codex and we don't have any fresh rumors. I suppose we'll see the codex when we see it but damn.

**FezzikDaBullgryn**

We will see rumors when GW wants us to. But give it time. I'm sure they are coming soon.

**WisdomLS**

As we're waiting for rumors how about some rampant speculation and wish listing :-)

I'm hoping that wardens become actually useful, perhaps with built in transhuman or FNP but I'm hoping for something to make them standout and be different - just being tougher makes them another flavour of terminator - one of the two would be better and the other would not get used. Perhaps they will get built in anti-character rules that are useful or an aura of cancelling rerolls.

Sisters just need to have better anti psyker abilities or be alot cheaper.

Damage increase across the board obviously.

The main thing I am hoping for is an army wide durability buff rule - to replace and hopefully improve on the +1 invuln save - ever army has invulns, I want something unique.
I'm thinking that we might be able to re-roll failed saves of 1, or possibly a flat -1 to wound, or no rerolling to hit/wound us. How our durability is buffed will define how usable we are as an army.

**Iggy88**

Personally, I find an army-wide 5++ and a +1 to invul saves to be the absolute best army rule. I couldn't imagine anything more preferable, even if it's not particularly flashy or unique. So I'm reeeeally hoping that that rumor is incorrect. But I do think that GW has been scrapping 3++ so I wouldn't be surprised if the rules are changed in such a way that prevents anyone from getting a 3++ for more than a single turn/phase.

**Mad_Proctologist**

I don't know why everyone is doubting the 3++. It's not THAT oppressive with all the -1/-2 weapons out there. And if anyone deserves it, it's us. I faced a plague caster that did 12 mortal wounds in one phase recently... All the invuls in the world couldn't help me.

For wishlisting I'd really like some more variety:
Roll sagittarum into basic guard profile so you can mix and match the sword and board, spear, and gun.
More terminator options. Power firsts, storm shields, heavy weapons. How cool would a sword and shield allarus custodian be?
More dred options. Give our codex contemptor the option to take a spear or sword and board (to play as our current forgeworld options).
Unlease the Lions strat should just be an army rule you can use when you deploy a unit.

**FezzikDaBullgryn**

Wish list for santa:

Sisters as troops
Sweeping and chopping weapon profiles
S5 bolters on our weapons, but cost a premium.
Drop the +1, and give us the same in an army wide entire turn strat.
Make Sisters able to deny within 6", or make the strength of their blankness proximity based. -1 at max, -3 at close combat.
Make our Wardens able to lock down targets in combat.
Make Terminator grenade launchers 2d3 S6 AP2 D1. Assault 18" Or a Krak Profile of 1shot S8 AP3 D6

**Audustum**

I guess if I'm winging it (note no FW cause they already have their book and we haven't had a Codex yet that touched FW stuff):

1. Axes flat 3 damage (+3S).
2. Swords flat 2 damage (+1S).
3. Spears flat 2 damage (+2S).
4. Shields retain 3++.
5. Emperor's Auspice strat remains.
6. Transhuman strat remains.
7. +1W across the board.
8. Inceptor Lances flat 3 damage on the charge. Remain 1D3 when not charging. Give S+2 instead of +1.
9. Sisters get an aura range increase in proximity to other Sisters, in addition to increased debuff.
10. Sisters get -1 to be hit akin to a weaker Culexus.
11. Jetbikes get inbuilt 'hit rolls of 1-2 always fail' like a weaker version of the new character.
12. Shieldhosts become actual sub-factions rather than just WT and keyword (so relic, ability and strat for each).
13. Trajann gets an increase to attacks.
14. FnP changed to all MW instead of just psychic phase.
15. Wardens get a 5+++ all the time to everything.
16. Armywide +1 invuln stays.
17. Sisters HQ!
18. Sword Sisters get Advance and Charge.
19. Bolter Sisters are Troops and Core.
20. Flamer Sisters are Fast Attack and Core.
21. Sword Sisters are Elite and Core.
22. Sisters get the armywide 5++ and 6+++ to MW.
23. More relics/traits.
24. Avenge the Fallen remains.
25. Tanglefoot remains.

**tneva82**

Mad_Proctologist wrote:
I don't know why everyone is doubting the 3++. It's not THAT oppressive with all the -1/-2 weapons out there. And if anyone deserves it, it's us. I faced a plague caster that did 12 mortal wounds in one phase recently... All the invuls in the world couldn't help me.

For wishlisting I'd really like some more variety:
Roll sagittarum into basic guard profile so you can mix and match the sword and board, spear, and gun.
More terminator options. Power firsts, storm shields, heavy weapons. How cool would a sword and shield allarus custodian be?
More dred options. Give our codex contemptor the option to take a spear or sword and board (to play as our current forgeworld options).
Unlease the Lions strat should just be an army rule you can use when you deploy a unit.

Because gw has been removing it from game. Short of 1 shot stuff like marine relic you are pipe dreaming if you think 3++ stays.

And just for thought would it be that bad to go to 4++ and gain 5+++ vs mw? That helps vs mw and allows other ways than mw spam to deal with custodians. Do you WANT game be race to spam mw's? Invs are direct reason for that,

**The Red Hobbit**

My Custodes have been thrashed by C'Tans more than a few times so a better save vs MW would be very welcome even at the expense of an army wide 3++

**Tiberias**

Well if we're into wishlisting here's my take:

-Aegis of the Emperor gets changed to a flat 4++ and a 5+++ against all mortal wounds.

- +1 Wound for all Infantry and bikers (this seems very likely imo)

- +1 Attack across the board

- spears 2 profiles: either S+2, AP3, Dmg2 or S user, Ap2, dmg1 double attack

-axes flat 3 dmg

-storm shields give +1 to armor saves and you can't re roll hits against the user in melee

-interceptor lances flat 3 dmg only on the charge

-Trajanns watchers axe flat 4 dmg!!!

-potent options to play hero hammer. We're the faction to do it. I want a strat for double warlord trait on one character in addition to captain commander traits

-wardens get a fight last strat and a blanket 5+++ against any dmg.

-no more having to take Valerian and Aleya as a pair and decent rules for both.

-kickass relics and traits for the blade champion so he can truly chop up any generic character in the game.

-passive boni for picking a shield host like super doctrines

- sisters as troops, but same restrictions as with poxwalkers in death guard.