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sounds to me then that while evryone is ohhing over the captain, if you wanna use bikes in decent numbers a actual squad is prooably the better way to do it

A squad of three jetbikes escorted by a shield captain on jetbike with a mix of missile and hurricane bolters might help versus tanks.

As much as I want to like the salvo launcher, the math says its a horrible choice. Why pay an extra 15 points to do less damage to 90% of the things your shooting at.

I find getting the bikes into melee to be a better/faster solution to most armour. The salvo launcher is useful for penetrating enemy lines (putting some damage onto a tank hiding behind the screen you're about to obliterate in melee when you're too far off to hit the tank in melee), but if you aren't playing against Guard they're not going to be able to screen well enough to make that relevant most of the time. Probably better to bring an actual gun (either by way of allies or through a Contemptor or a Caladius (assuming they get cheaper before final release, they're kind of expensive right now) than to make your premier anti-horde tool less effective.

If you don't want to grab Forge World models using FTGL to drop in a plastic Contemptor with the multi-melta isn't the worst alternative.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
As much as I want to like the salvo launcher, the math says its a horrible choice. Why pay an extra 15 points to do less damage to 90% of the things your shooting at.

the remaining 10 percent are more dangerous than the 90?

It's a bad deal, but it's the best deal a pure custodes force has access to

to me the main reason to take salvo would be to shoot flyers and honestly you can just charge most of those and take em out in melee so I just don't see the need to spend those points.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
to me the main reason to take salvo would be to shoot flyers and honestly you can just charge most of those and take em out in melee so I just don't see the need to spend those points.

You can't actually. Most vehicles survive, at full health, a charge from a min squad of bikers. With captain rerolls, you do roughly 10 wounds to a vehicle with a 3 plus toughness 7 or 8. That is russes, wave serpents, predators.

Between 3-6 biker captains you will easily kill 2 fliers a turn, still shooting all their cheap scoring units to bits with the hurricane bolters.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Between 3-6 biker captains you will easily kill 2 fliers a turn, still shooting all their cheap scoring units to bits with the hurricane bolters.

And if you wanna run something other then biker captains?

better get you some backup from AM or SM

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Flamers are actually terrible for hordes. Save the points and don't use them.

Oh aware they are not amazing, especially for the cost but five in a squad has a bit of fear factor which I like and I like the models. Likely only used occasionally or in larger (like 3k) games

Anyone had much of a play with the FW dread rules just yet? Seen a few people testing the tanks, but not the dreads.

I still can’t get past the idea that the Caladius is double the points of the Sicaran.

I really like the idea of running a Vanguard of 2 Dreads, Vexila and Terminator Captain all dropping in somewhere, but, waiting on the Galatus rules before deciding.

Throw in a bike supreme command detachment, and maybe another dread and I’d hope for around 400 points left over in a 2k list.

BrianDavion wrote:
sounds to me then that while evryone is ohhing over the captain, if you wanna use bikes in decent numbers a actual squad is prooably the better way to do it

I've been saying that for a while. 6 bike captains is near enough the same cost as 1 captain and 9 bikes and the latter is much more effective.

I'm finding it difficult to avoid settling on an outrider detachment with 2 bike captains for the dual 3++ relics and 3 units of bikes. That leaves plenty of points for screening and some dedicated anti-armor from another faction.

Yeah 800pts of IG or SM is a lot for Screens, you can even just do 3x5scout, Smash Captain and another HQ with some DC or Sgaurd if you want.

I was going to do Foot SOB

Kdash wrote:
Anyone had much of a play with the FW dread rules just yet? Seen a few people testing the tanks, but not the dreads.

I still can’t get past the idea that the Caladius is double the points of the Sicaran.

I really like the idea of running a Vanguard of 2 Dreads, Vexila and Terminator Captain all dropping in somewhere, but, waiting on the Galatus rules before deciding.

Throw in a bike supreme command detachment, and maybe another dread and I’d hope for around 400 points left over in a 2k list.

I havent played with them, but I've done the math, and basically every unit is infinitely less efficient than other, non-fw options.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

Kdash wrote:
Anyone had much of a play with the FW dread rules just yet? Seen a few people testing the tanks, but not the dreads.

I still can’t get past the idea that the Caladius is double the points of the Sicaran.

I really like the idea of running a Vanguard of 2 Dreads, Vexila and Terminator Captain all dropping in somewhere, but, waiting on the Galatus rules before deciding.

Throw in a bike supreme command detachment, and maybe another dread and I’d hope for around 400 points left over in a 2k list.

I havent played with them, but I've done the math, and basically every unit is infinitely less efficient than other, non-fw options.

Well, I guess, one can but hope that the feedback is good and the adjustments are positive!

Agreed. I think it was out of necessity, unfortunately. If they were powerful out of the box people would riot.

Just adding my thoughts after 5 games this weekend.

3 Tourney matches, 1 3k point game and 1 2k point game

I play mono faction, as that's how I like to build a army/collect. The exception is I feel AC needs an assassin. Either Vindicare or Culexus.

Also all 5 games were longways (hammer and anvil) deployment so take it for what it is. They would fair far better being much closer if standard deployment

5 Bike captians is ok, but only good for a soup detachment. Much better to take a captian or two on bike and just biker units.

No reason to use Melta missiles. AC strength is volume of shots. You need it to clear and bubble wrap so you can charge the tanks and lock them up. Even if you don't kill it on the charge, its not shooting you back so 100% worth it.

Valoris is pretty useless. No way to get him there easily besides deepstrike for CP. Only positive I can try to see is deploy him, deepstrike 2 units of bikes, and get your CP back hopefully with his once a game.

3 spear 1 shield tends to be my main units of 3-4 of them. Nice solid marching wall that's hard to break.

Termies are worthless. 99% of games people bubble wrap backfield so no way to deepstrike behind. It relies on your bikes killing guys to create the space. Even if they charge with axes and rerolls, they do crap to tanks. It many points to be considered. Better for more bikes/ basic dudes.

None of this is eye opening by any means. Most of this has been said a million times already, but I figure the more findings we have the better collected data there is for others.

Record was 2-3. Games were not a blowout by any means and very close over all. Most of the time it came to making key charges that failed, even after rerolling. Without price reduction, or useful forgeworld units ported over (that are not balls crazy pointwise) the army is just middle of the pact. Wont see it in major events, but will scare and shock the noobies of 40k when they feel they cant damage them.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
better get you some backup from AM or SM

Again, follow this to the logicl extreme and you realize taking custodes is questionable entirely

str00dles1 wrote:
Just adding my thoughts after 5 games this weekend.

3 Tourney matches, 1 3k point game and 1 2k point game

I play mono faction, as that's how I like to build a army/collect. The exception is I feel AC needs an assassin. Either Vindicare or Culexus.

Also all 5 games were longways (hammer and anvil) deployment so take it for what it is. They would fair far better being much closer if standard deployment

5 Bike captians is ok, but only good for a soup detachment. Much better to take a captian or two on bike and just biker units.

No reason to use Melta missiles. AC strength is volume of shots. You need it to clear and bubble wrap so you can charge the tanks and lock them up. Even if you don't kill it on the charge, its not shooting you back so 100% worth it.

Valoris is pretty useless. No way to get him there easily besides deepstrike for CP. Only positive I can try to see is deploy him, deepstrike 2 units of bikes, and get your CP back hopefully with his once a game.

3 spear 1 shield tends to be my main units of 3-4 of them. Nice solid marching wall that's hard to break.

Termies are worthless. 99% of games people bubble wrap backfield so no way to deepstrike behind. It relies on your bikes killing guys to create the space. Even if they charge with axes and rerolls, they do crap to tanks. It many points to be considered. Better for more bikes/ basic dudes.

None of this is eye opening by any means. Most of this has been said a million times already, but I figure the more findings we have the better collected data there is for others.

Record was 2-3. Games were not a blowout by any means and very close over all. Most of the time it came to making key charges that failed, even after rerolling. Without price reduction, or useful forgeworld units ported over (that are not balls crazy pointwise) the army is just middle of the pact. Wont see it in major events, but will scare and shock the noobies of 40k when they feel they cant damage them.

What turn were you deep striking the terminators?

stratigo wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
better get you some backup from AM or SM

Again, follow this to the logicl extreme and you realize taking custodes is questionable entirely

Not entirely fair. AM are well suited as a battery for Custodes to facilitate them, or to fill the holes the army is missing, such as long range AT. (Debatable, as they should be handling them in close range.)

A rock is not scissors, but showing up with a big rock and small scissors helps your chances against paper.

 Primark G wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:
Just adding my thoughts after 5 games this weekend.

3 Tourney matches, 1 3k point game and 1 2k point game

I play mono faction, as that's how I like to build a army/collect. The exception is I feel AC needs an assassin. Either Vindicare or Culexus.

Also all 5 games were longways (hammer and anvil) deployment so take it for what it is. They would fair far better being much closer if standard deployment

5 Bike captians is ok, but only good for a soup detachment. Much better to take a captian or two on bike and just biker units.

No reason to use Melta missiles. AC strength is volume of shots. You need it to clear and bubble wrap so you can charge the tanks and lock them up. Even if you don't kill it on the charge, its not shooting you back so 100% worth it.

Valoris is pretty useless. No way to get him there easily besides deepstrike for CP. Only positive I can try to see is deploy him, deepstrike 2 units of bikes, and get your CP back hopefully with his once a game.

3 spear 1 shield tends to be my main units of 3-4 of them. Nice solid marching wall that's hard to break.

Termies are worthless. 99% of games people bubble wrap backfield so no way to deepstrike behind. It relies on your bikes killing guys to create the space. Even if they charge with axes and rerolls, they do crap to tanks. It many points to be considered. Better for more bikes/ basic dudes.

None of this is eye opening by any means. Most of this has been said a million times already, but I figure the more findings we have the better collected data there is for others.

Record was 2-3. Games were not a blowout by any means and very close over all. Most of the time it came to making key charges that failed, even after rerolling. Without price reduction, or useful forgeworld units ported over (that are not balls crazy pointwise) the army is just middle of the pact. Wont see it in major events, but will scare and shock the noobies of 40k when they feel they cant damage them.

What turn were you deep striking the terminators?

Was dependent on my options. If they had it bubbled up first turn (4 of the 5 games) I had to wait until turn 2.

Its better spending the CP to deepstrike 1-2 bike units. That makes people worry far more then the crap terminators.

Again ,this is doing pure custodies. Ive done 10+ games with them so far playing many different armies and people and this seems to be the general consensus.

I played in a tournament and my terminators did great (came in third place with over 20 players). In one game they mulched a big unit of Plague Drones. Sometimes I did not bring them until turn 3... every game they did some work. I wasn't running pure Custodes though.

deep striking bikes is a waste IMHO they move so fast. you're better off using the CPs to deep strike infantry (wardens or guard) into important areas. even if it's just dropping sword and board guard on a objective your opponent is pushing towards to tie them up

Honestly if your running the full 10 bike squad the relic that lets you shoot when you die feels stronger than the 3++ one.

Played a game against a Death Guard list last night. He wanted to try out 80 poxwalkers, typhus, Mortarion, 3 bloat drones and a squad of plague marines, plus assorted buff characters.

I brought:

5 shield captains
9 bikes (3x3, all hurricanes)

IG Batallion (Cadian Infantry, 13 total mortar teams)

Spent basically all of my CP pre-game giving 4 shield-captains blood games because I thought the re-rolls of saves and/or to wound rolls would be nice (let’s be honest, we always hit and always re-roll those anyhow)

He got first turn but I seized! Killed literally 51 poxwalkers in the first shooting phase. Morty came up and punked a bike squad, and I was faced with a decision. Should I try to ignore Morty and take down the rest of his army, or should I go headfirst into the beast and try and go for the gusto?

I went for the gusto, and it was a little terrifying because every single shield captain and one squad of bikes went in to try and kill him. But man that T7! I was able to bring him down into his lowest bracket but not kill him. However, after surviving his return attacks (he split them and I got lucky with him not rolling well on his to wound) Morty was downed. After that, I basically routed the rest of his army, ignoring his bloat drones until the end. He conceded at the top of 4.

Post game thoughts:

Good to know that this list can deal with a primarch! Was concerned but if they can take him down, other tanks with worse/no invulns shouldn’t be too bad.

Maybe some Psyker defense would be good. Maybe an assassin or two? I could see one less shield captain being worth a Culexus.

Obsec in everything is beautiful. And later on in the game, those shield captains/bikes in general are just so hard to deal with.

Still don’t think this list is super competitive but I’m definitely going to try it out against some tougher stuff and see where it hits a wall.

Culexus is almost mandatory IMO.

Some math on shield captains vs normal bikes, breaking it down to an arbitrary 200 points:
Shield captains: 8.75 wounds, 6.25 attacks, rapid-fire 7.5 (bolters)
Bikes: 8.89 wounds, 8.89 attacks, rapid-fire 13.3 (bolters)
There is some additional durability to be gained from a shield captain’s 3++, but for me the extra volume of attacks in both shooting and melee means that if I have the points/force org to take normal bikes vs a shield captain I’ll do it every time.
On fire rapors:
A fire raptor without re-rolls does 6.5 wounds on average to them with the banner, or 1.5 dead bikes (T6, 4 wounds, 2+/4++). That’s the absolute best case, so by maximizing that (eliminate the re-rolls and/or force the -1) you can mitigate the damage down to a comfortable level. Obviously that is easier said than done.

 greyknight12 wrote:
Some math on shield captains vs normal bikes, breaking it down to an arbitrary 200 points:
Shield captains: 8.75 wounds, 6.25 attacks, rapid-fire 7.5 (bolters)
Bikes: 8.89 wounds, 8.89 attacks, rapid-fire 13.3 (bolters)
There is some additional durability to be gained from a shield captain’s 3++, but for me the extra volume of attacks in both shooting and melee means that if I have the points/force org to take normal bikes vs a shield captain I’ll do it every time.
On fire rapors:
A fire raptor without re-rolls does 6.5 wounds on average to them with the banner, or 1.5 dead bikes (T6, 4 wounds, 2+/4++). That’s the absolute best case, so by maximizing that (eliminate the re-rolls and/or force the -1) you can mitigate the damage down to a comfortable level. Obviously that is easier said than done.

Re: bikes, thanks I was thinking about this today, saves me doing numbers.

Main advantage of SC's is the character rule of course, you can easily shield a bunch of them from T1 shooting if required, so for certain army builds they are more durable. As well as fulfilling all important HQ slots/buff role of course (they're our best HQ choice). If you're going full bikes, best to use mostly squads as you've proven their huge advantage offensively.