FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I was thinking about this last night while looking at the Deathwing Knights rules, which I may be wrong but are the closest non-custodes unit to a Guardian out there. 4/4 that can become 5/4, with a 2+4++5+++ and 4-5 attacks depending on litany, phase, and spells, has re-roll wounds, and can get + to wounds, for around 47 points. And you can squad them in groups of 3-5 I think. They also get the Mace of absolution that is a TH with no neg to hit.
We have roughly the same stat line with better S/T, less attacks, less but stonger shooting, and weaker attacks, S5/6 depending on weapon. We get a better invuln option with shield, but we get more cost.
I think we need to get nerfed in order to get buffed. If we intend to stay at S5T5, then we need to go UP in costs before we can start talking about Buffs to weapon S.
I would rather see us go to S/T4, get a drop in price, but get Plus 1/2 in Weapon Strength. If we stay S/T5, I think raise us to base 60 points, and give us the Weapon buffs. The S/T tax is really the breaker for us. With it we need to cost more and can't have stronger weapons without being broken, without it we are just Golden Astartes and why even have us as a faction?
We need to go up in cost if we are getting any buffs.
I am all for our guys increasing in cost if our weapons get appropriately better and get more abilities etc.
If we ever get nerfed to T/S 4 then I'm done. Since they moved away from WS and BS values there are even fewer things that differentiate units from each other. No, we need to be a step above marines both in stats and abilities, but more expensive. Also if they really move away from 3+ invulns across all factions, GW has to throw us a bone, cause that one of the few things that makes our shieldguys worthwhile compared to marines.
We shouldn't be invulnerable, but we should hit harder. The problem is, there are already units that basically have what we have, but only slightly less cost. We cannot get better without a cost. That's all I am saying.
I watched that game, at least in parts....and that shield wall of custodian guard held a really, really long time. Very strong list apparently, really hard to chew through that, especially that bike captain with indomitable constituation....jeez.
I watched that game, at least in parts....and that shield wall of custodian guard held a really, really long time. Very strong list apparently, really hard to chew through that, especially that bike captain with indomitable constituation....jeez.
Give the Jetbike Captain Superior Creation on top of it if you really don't want him going anywhere.
This is basically just using as as campers and then the Sisters to do actual damage because we're not great at that. It's not a bad idea.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: GW gotta sell those minis man, happens every time a new model gets released.
To be fair, don't protest too loudly, if this is the baseline for other factions, imagine the levels of crazyness they are going to give Custodes....
Buffs to one faction's units DO NOT automatically translate to another faction.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: We shouldn't be invulnerable, but we should hit harder. The problem is, there are already units that basically have what we have, but only slightly less cost. We cannot get better without a cost. That's all I am saying.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: GW gotta sell those minis man, happens every time a new model gets released.
To be fair, don't protest too loudly, if this is the baseline for other factions, imagine the levels of crazyness they are going to give Custodes....
Buffs to one faction's units DO NOT automatically translate to another faction.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: We shouldn't be invulnerable, but we should hit harder. The problem is, there are already units that basically have what we have, but only slightly less cost. We cannot get better without a cost. That's all I am saying.
It's not even slightly.
It's at significantly less cost.
The Deathwing knight costs over 40 with all his gear, and to even approach the S5T5 statline he needs: best doctrine, best phase, best litany, and best spells. Also WL trait. We get all that for free basically. He just gets more attacks at S8, We still have mastercrafted bolters, spears, and S6 AP3 hitting. I don't think we are too far apart. We lack in attacking, but beat them hands down in staying power. Also they have Ro3, and we can take 5-6 squads of 10 guys.
Is there any canon source that might indicate Custodes ever using chaplains, or litanies? That could easily buff us, give it to the flag bearers. Use this turn to shout encouragement to your brothers, boosting strength by 1, or AP by 1, or Damage by 1. That way we get flat 2 on anything we stab?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: GW gotta sell those minis man, happens every time a new model gets released.
To be fair, don't protest too loudly, if this is the baseline for other factions, imagine the levels of crazyness they are going to give Custodes....
Buffs to one faction's units DO NOT automatically translate to another faction.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: We shouldn't be invulnerable, but we should hit harder. The problem is, there are already units that basically have what we have, but only slightly less cost. We cannot get better without a cost. That's all I am saying.
It's not even slightly.
It's at significantly less cost.
The Deathwing knight costs over 40 with all his gear, and to even approach the S5T5 statline he needs: best doctrine, best phase, best litany, and best spells. Also WL trait. We get all that for free basically. He just gets more attacks at S8, We still have mastercrafted bolters, spears, and S6 AP3 hitting. I don't think we are too far apart. We lack in attacking, but beat them hands down in staying power. Also they have Ro3, and we can take 5-6 squads of 10 guys.
Is there any canon source that might indicate Custodes ever using chaplains, or litanies? That could easily buff us, give it to the flag bearers. Use this turn to shout encouragement to your brothers, boosting strength by 1, or AP by 1, or Damage by 1. That way we get flat 2 on anything we stab?
Deathwing knights also have:
1+ armor save
transhuman all the time
the ability to deny one psychic power per game
immunity to moral
3 dmg weapon
Custodes don't have chaplain and IMO it wouldn't make any sense if they had them.
I guess you are right, though I still say S/T 5 makes up for a lot.
Morality isn't really a problem for Custodes is it? Even with the new changes, the likelihood of us loosing models to combat attrition is next to zero. Unless we are taking large groups of 5+ models, in which case, wut?
Morality isn't really a problem for Custodes is it? Even with the new changes, the likelihood of us loosing models to combat attrition is next to zero. Unless we are taking large groups of 5+ models, in which case, wut?
Our custodian guard shouldn't be leadership 8 though, makes zero sense. Also can make a difference, in the las vegas nopen final the custodes/sisters player lost a shield guy to morale, which wasn't trivial due to objective holding.
I'm not putting up a blanket statement that custodes should be immune to moral from a game design standpoint, but from a lore perspective it makes no sense that we should take morale tests at all, let alone that our troops are Ld 8.
Morality isn't really a problem for Custodes is it? Even with the new changes, the likelihood of us loosing models to combat attrition is next to zero. Unless we are taking large groups of 5+ models, in which case, wut?
Our custodian guard shouldn't be leadership 8 though, makes zero sense. Also can make a difference, in the las vegas nopen final the custodes/sisters player lost a shield guy to morale, which wasn't trivial due to objective holding.
I'm not putting up a blanket statement that custodes should be immune to moral from a game design standpoint, but from a lore perspective it makes no sense that we should take morale tests at all, let alone that our troops are Ld 8.
If I understand you, you are saying that Custodes shouldn't have morale problems. At all, like ever. Because Lore? By Lore standards the Astartes shouldn't have moral problems, they are literally incapable of fear, unless made to feel it due to chaos. I am hesitant to go down lore roads with Custodes, because if Lore is king, the Custodes shouldn't exist as a faction. Unless you count the new retcon as lore. I do and I do not. I don't think the Primaris should exist, and I don't think the Custodes should be leading Crusades.
Morality isn't really a problem for Custodes is it? Even with the new changes, the likelihood of us loosing models to combat attrition is next to zero. Unless we are taking large groups of 5+ models, in which case, wut?
Our custodian guard shouldn't be leadership 8 though, makes zero sense. Also can make a difference, in the las vegas nopen final the custodes/sisters player lost a shield guy to morale, which wasn't trivial due to objective holding.
I'm not putting up a blanket statement that custodes should be immune to moral from a game design standpoint, but from a lore perspective it makes no sense that we should take morale tests at all, let alone that our troops are Ld 8.
If I understand you, you are saying that Custodes shouldn't have morale problems. At all, like ever. Because Lore? By Lore standards the Astartes shouldn't have moral problems, they are literally incapable of fear, unless made to feel it due to chaos. I am hesitant to go down lore roads with Custodes, because if Lore is king, the Custodes shouldn't exist as a faction. Unless you count the new retcon as lore. I do and I do not. I don't think the Primaris should exist, and I don't think the Custodes should be leading Crusades.
I literally said in my post that I don't want to make a blanket statement that custodes should be immune to moral from a game design standpoint. Our custodian guard being Ld 8 is dumb though, they should be Ld 9 at least.
Wardens should be immune to moral for sure though, same as deathwing knights....would fit them quite well also.
Our basic troop being the same Ld as a squad captain or 600yr old+ eldar is not a bad thing.
We rarely loose any models to morale unless we take a squad of 10, and if your opponent fired his whole army into your 10 man squad and only killed 6, loosing one to morale is not a big issue.
We can also still pay 2 CP to auto-pass morale if need be.
We literally just need 1 thing to be competitive in 9th as a solo army, and thats damage increase.
Our durability is fine as it is. We just fall far behind any of the current 9th codex's in Damage output per point.
I dont want +1 attack on the charge or +1 to wound on the charge or any of that marine stuff either.
Just increasing our base volume of fire/attacks by 1 and not nerfing the few units that had decent damage output (Grav tanks) is enough to keep us up with the joneses.
Mabey take our vehicles base invun away and give them back the actual Flare shield ability (reduce strength of incoming shots by 1, 2 if blast).
This can be done easy by rolling in strats to our stat blocks. Permanent Superior Fire Patterns is one fix. Permanent Avenge the Fallen is another.
Eihnlazer wrote: Our basic troop being the same Ld as a squad captain or 600yr old+ eldar is not a bad thing.
We rarely loose any models to morale unless we take a squad of 10, and if your opponent fired his whole army into your 10 man squad and only killed 6, loosing one to morale is not a big issue.
We can also still pay 2 CP to auto-pass morale if need be.
We literally just need 1 thing to be competitive in 9th as a solo army, and thats damage increase.
Our durability is fine as it is. We just fall far behind any of the current 9th codex's in Damage output per point.
I dont want +1 attack on the charge or +1 to wound on the charge or any of that marine stuff either.
Just increasing our base volume of fire/attacks by 1 and not nerfing the few units that had decent damage output (Grav tanks) is enough to keep us up with the joneses.
Mabey take our vehicles base invun away and give them back the actual Flare shield ability (reduce strength of incoming shots by 1, 2 if blast).
This can be done easy by rolling in strats to our stat blocks. Permanent Superior Fire Patterns is one fix. Permanent Avenge the Fallen is another.
If we're arguing from a lore perspective, then I have to disagree with your point about leadership, but whatever. Like you said, it can come up, but it's a fringe issue. I still believe our troops should be Ld 9, characters Ld10 and wardens should be fearless.
I agree with the rest though, consistent dmg and more special abilities, that preferably also tie into our thematic, is the way to go.
Edit: back to actual tactics discussion though. In the las vegas nopen there was a pure custodes list as far as I can recall. I only managed to watch the finale, does someone know how the pure custodes list performed?
We need one thing to be effective: Sisters as Keyword Custodes Troop choice. Bam, 50 point bolter squads that shore up psyker defense, and hold objectives with ObSec and Custodes Invulns. I don't think we are THAT far off being great, we just need less worthless Troop choices.
Tactics question: What is the most effective soup choice for Psykers? Three Primaris Librarians in a seperate Detachment? They are at least able to hold objectives, grant buffs, and aren't worthless as psykers. Are there any Imperial Psyker abilities that really mesh well with Custodes?
Eihnlazer wrote: Our basic troop being the same Ld as a squad captain or 600yr old+ eldar is not a bad thing.
This can be done easy by rolling in strats to our stat blocks. Permanent Superior Fire Patterns is one fix. Permanent Avenge the Fallen is another.
I love this idea, but it's wishlisting and I don't see us ever becoming more deadly in Melee. Avenge the Fallen is a nice gimmick, but too op to be permanent. If they have us +1 Strength or bonus to AP that would be more tolerable. I would love Base rapid fire 4 weapons, and bikes shooting at base 24 shots inside 12 inches. That would get UGLY.
I have to ask, does anyone see Sag becoming more of a staple given how shooty 9th is shaping up to be?
Eihnlazer wrote: Our basic troop being the same Ld as a squad captain or 600yr old+ eldar is not a bad thing.
This can be done easy by rolling in strats to our stat blocks. Permanent Superior Fire Patterns is one fix. Permanent Avenge the Fallen is another.
I love this idea, but it's wishlisting and I don't see us ever becoming more deadly in Melee. Avenge the Fallen is a nice gimmick, but too op to be permanent. If they have us +1 Strength or bonus to AP that would be more tolerable. I would love Base rapid fire 4 weapons, and bikes shooting at base 24 shots inside 12 inches. That would get UGLY.
I have to ask, does anyone see Sag becoming more of a staple given how shooty 9th is shaping up to be?
I honestly can't speak to the level of overall shootyness of 9th, but I think sagittarum guard are going to be seen in lists quite often simply because they are just a very, very solid unit all around. They have very good shooting since the FW update with flat 2 dmg, which becomes more and more important, and they can fight surprisingly well when equipped with misericordias (which you should always do if you can spare the points).
They are obviously not as tanky as our shield guys, but they can actively contribute from a backfield objective and chip off some wounds from enemy units with their decent firepower. You can also effectively push them up the board and threaten gravis marines with their flat 3dmg profile.
So yeah, they are imo very, very versatile and depending on what the focus of you specific army list is going to be, I'd recommend using them. I would not label them an absolute must take however, simply due to the fact that we are now in a position where we can make a lot of different builds. They might not be needed, depending on the focus of your specific list, but they are never a bad choice is what I am saying.
We: Custodes; get our own Mortarian. Supreme Warlord - The Emperor of Man: S/T 9 25 wounds, Psker, can cast 3, deny 3, 12 re-roll all aura, 1+2++3+++ with 9 attacks at AP 5 D4 damage. Fly.
With the way these codexes are dropping where each one is so powerful, I don't see how we bet buffed in the next one.
We: Custodes; get our own Mortarian. Supreme Warlord - The Emperor of Man: S/T 9 25 wounds, Psker, can cast 3, deny 3, 12 re-roll all aura, 1+2++3+++ with 9 attacks at AP 5 D4 damage. Fly.
With the way these codexes are dropping where each one is so powerful, I don't see how we bet buffed in the next one.
Yeah, as fun as it is theorizing, that is never going to happen. At least not in 40k.
In 30k FW might release an emperor miniature and rules for him as well when the horus heresy books draw to a close, alongside corrupted horus to depict their epic duel, which shaped and defined the setting of 40k greatly. Can't imagine they'd pass up that opportunity.
As to your second question: we already discussed at length how we can get buffed. Slightly better weapon profiles with consistent dmg and some additional special rules for our units instead of some sort of doctrines since we are not space marines. This might increase our cost per model, but if the price hikes are not too steep and in balance with the power level of the buffs, I'd be fine with that.
Right, but look at the leap of DG or BA or even DA from 8th, to 9th. Their effectiveness is orders of magnitude greater now. If the codex leaks are true. I don't see how a codex could make give us that sort of boost. I hate to use this analogy, but the DA/BA/DG boost was almost Kiao-kenish.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Right, but look at the leap of DG or BA or even DA from 8th, to 9th. Their effectiveness is orders of magnitude greater now. If the codex leaks are true. I don't see how a codex could make give us that sort of boost. I hate to use this analogy, but the DA/BA/DG boost was almost Kiao-kenish.
We don't need that kind of boost I think. We are already quite strong. A gentle push towards better and more interesting weapon profiles as well es some extra abilities baked into our main units is all it takes.
Though I can see custodes players being put off by the inner circle rule of the new dark angels. Permanent transhuman is just a dumb rule, but I digress.
I think it's hilarious that we need better options given that we basically have S6 melee attacking with Melta guns baked in, or a master crafted bolter baked in, or a HB as stock weapons for troops. We also have a wierd mashup of some form of Grav-gun/overcharged plasma thing with a spear on it. The only thing we don't have is Flamer spears. Wouldn't that be something? Spears and swords with Heavy Flamers.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I think it's hilarious that we need better options given that we basically have S6 melee attacking with Melta guns baked in, or a master crafted bolter baked in, or a HB as stock weapons for troops. We also have a wierd mashup of some form of Grav-gun/overcharged plasma thing with a spear on it. The only thing we don't have is Flamer spears. Wouldn't that be something? Spears and swords with Heavy Flamers.
Getting the flamers as a pistol would be awesome on a flamer spear.
But I digress.
Custodes need to move away from d3 weapons. But I don't think otherwise the basic statline needs to change much.
Its just that DG and DA terminators are criminally underpriced for what they bring, and otherwise are due for nerfbatting.
Audustum wrote: Our statline really just needs +1W I feel. Gravis armor is infringing on our territory too much.
I've said it once and I'll say it again:
Bring swords/spears into alignment with force weapons (as they started out). So +1 S on swords, +2S on spears.
Make all weapons flat 2, but axes flat 3.
Give all Custodes +1W across the board.
That PROBABLY does it. If we still need a little push then re-roll invulnerable saves of 1 for a pure army should do it.
Just as a quality of life, our FNP needs to be made for all MW too, not just psychic phase.
That sounds reasonable. I can't assess whether an ability to re-roll 1s on invulns would be too powerful. However, if we do in fact lose our 3+ invulns on shields and on characters like all other armies, I think we need such an ability or at least something similar.
Edit: I've said this oftentimes already, but it is going to be nearly impossible to express the difference in stats between a guardsman a space marine and a custodian properly due to us being limited to a D6 system. You can't just power creep endlessly like a trading card game to show the hierarchy of personal, individual power of those factions.
But you somehow have to express the differences in capability between guardsman, marine and custodian, otherwise you lose part of the faction identity. If every one is special, no one is and the lines are blurry already. At least between marines and the golden boys.
So what can be done apart from the weapon buffs you mentioned? Imo, more thematic special abilities for our units that are exclusive to us.
In 7th ed our guardian spears had a rule where you could block incoming attacks if you rolled higher on a D6 than the attacker. Would that be too strong nowadays? Maybe, I don't know, but you get the point. What if charging enemy units get mortal wounds on a 4+ when they charge a unit that has guardian spears in them? Something like that. I feel there is a lot they could do in that area.
Thing is, if we keep buffing the Defense and Armor abilities of units, that goes hand in hand with buffing the killiness of units. Someone put it really well a few pages back,
We had armor saves and Invulns were rare, then we bumped up invulns and Mortal wounds were rare, then we bumped up MWs and FnPs were Rare, now FnPs are super prevalent, and we have units running around with 2+3++5+++, that hit like a truck. What then do we do to in any way stop this happening to Custodes?
I don't want us to be able to mortals on our weapons, because then the response to that will be equally borked. We need to stop the power creep. Custodes are fine right now. I would really like us to cost the same as DW terminators or BGVs, but that will likely never happen. I don't want to see any major changes to the faction because the DAs got buffs, and we have to be better than DA, because lore.
I am really tired of the rediculous levels of creep in 9th. I thought the BA were bad, until I saw the DG, then I saw the DA, next up is Drukari, which better not be even worse, or I may just sit out this edition and only play 8th.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Thing is, if we keep buffing the Defense and Armor abilities of units, that goes hand in hand with buffing the killiness of units. Someone put it really well a few pages back,
We had armor saves and Invulns were rare, then we bumped up invulns and Mortal wounds were rare, then we bumped up MWs and FnPs were Rare, now FnPs are super prevalent, and we have units running around with 2+3++5+++, that hit like a truck. What then do we do to in any way stop this happening to Custodes?
I don't want us to be able to mortals on our weapons, because then the response to that will be equally borked. We need to stop the power creep. Custodes are fine right now. I would really like us to cost the same as DW terminators or BGVs, but that will likely never happen. I don't want to see any major changes to the faction because the DAs got buffs, and we have to be better than DA, because lore.
I am really tired of the rediculous levels of creep in 9th. I thought the BA were bad, until I saw the DG, then I saw the DA, next up is Drukari, which better not be even worse, or I may just sit out this edition and only play 8th.
I get your point, I really do. I just really think that, IF done properly, you could add thematic special abilities to our units that would make them stand out. just a little bit. We don't have to be miles ahead of a deathshroud terminator, just a few meters...if that analogy makes sense. Unless, like you said, our terminators drop in points, but I really don't see that happening.
The golden boys lore is actually quite well represented on the tabletop if we are honest, we have the best infantry stat line in the game. I would even argue that we have the best infrantry statline that you can feasably create with a D6 system and a stat range from 1-10. It's just that this does not necessarily translate into combat effectiveness compared to new space marines for example. Because of all the amazing special rules and buffs they get for free, they feel like coming close to our guys in individual power, even though they have worse statlines. Which is why I am saying we don't need much to regain our feel of "superior elite low model count army", just one decent, thematic special rule for each unit, or unit type and a small weapon fix.
Also IF we lose our access to 3+ invulns I feel we need an additional wound like Audustum suggested. If we get to keep 3+ invulns an additional wound might be too good maybe....not sure.
I would like to see some of our less valuable units enter into a more valuable role? Wardens? I have three unopened boxes that I have never even considered opening. Why? They are statistically inferior terminators. Why not give them some special love.
"Wardens lock" Ability: All enemies in combat with Wardens are unable to fall back or leave combat with Wardens. All units in combat with Wardens also suffer -2 to all morale rolls.
Wardens could also use that as a Strat, which I think would be fun. 1 squad of wardens locking down a knight, lol.
I've also heard from people that they homebrewed wardens to be able to get a round of shooting against any unit that leaves combat from them.
I also think Character Targeting should be stock baked into every Custodes unit in the faction. These guys are hard wired geniuses and tactical masterminds to rival even two creeds. They should be able to spot a "leader" or HQ, and coordinate in combat to take them out.
@Fezzik Iike those ideas for wardens, those guys need some love.
On another note GW just postet a new errata on warhammer community with points updates and as far as I can see our standard vexillus just got more expensive, increasing by 20points and the vexilla magnifica is no longer free, it costs 10points now. The other banners still seem to be free, since they are not listet with an additional cost, just the magnifica is.
So a standard vexillus praetor, with axe or stormshield and
vexilla magnifica now costs 125points. So it was a mistake after all, oh well....
Edit: Vexillus in terminator armor also got a price hike of 30 points when equipped with the magnifica, rest of our codex units stayed the same btw.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Right, but look at the leap of DG or BA or even DA from 8th, to 9th. Their effectiveness is orders of magnitude greater now. If the codex leaks are true. I don't see how a codex could make give us that sort of boost. I hate to use this analogy, but the DA/BA/DG boost was almost Kiao-kenish.
We don't need that kind of boost I think. We are already quite strong. A gentle push towards better and more interesting weapon profiles as well es some extra abilities baked into our main units is all it takes.
Though I can see custodes players being put off by the inner circle rule of the new dark angels. Permanent transhuman is just a dumb rule, but I digress.
I never take a weapon on a flag, but that's just me. Always a shield. That being said, I think a lot of us saw the Flag points as wrong or a flat out error when they came out. There was no way GW just outright made them free.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I never take a weapon on a flag, but that's just me. Always a shield. That being said, I think a lot of us saw the Flag points as wrong or a flat out error when they came out. There was no way GW just outright made them free.
Only the magnifica with - 1 to hit costs points, the other 2 still appear to be free. The big price hike was actually in the base cost of the unit. Both normal vexillus and in terminator amor.
But yeah, like you said. A lot of people were sceptical that a 95point vexillus would stick.
Audustum wrote: Our statline really just needs +1W I feel. Gravis armor is infringing on our territory too much.
I've said it once and I'll say it again:
Bring swords/spears into alignment with force weapons (as they started out). So +1 S on swords, +2S on spears.
Make all weapons flat 2, but axes flat 3.
Give all Custodes +1W across the board.
That PROBABLY does it. If we still need a little push then re-roll invulnerable saves of 1 for a pure army should do it.
Just as a quality of life, our FNP needs to be made for all MW too, not just psychic phase.
I'd probably do a few more things but mostly to separate out the options a bit. I'd probably make Axes strictly superior to Spears per attack (S9 AP-3 D4 or so might be appropriate) but also give them 1-2 fewer attacks. This makes them excellent for killing Gravis, terminators, tanks, etc but more mediocre if you're trying to kill power armoed units or weaker. Something like 3 attacks with an axe or 5 with a spear on terminators seems reasonable.
So to bring this topic up a bit more and back to life - I need some advice when dealing with space wolves.
They can put out some real pressure. Bladeguards, Blood Claws, TWC in combination with Librarians, Chaplains and Judicars I find really hard to deal with.
Bladeguards are broken as is, but with exploding 6s, auto wounding hit rolls of 6 and MW on 6s are downright nasty.
Blood Claws have a fethton of attacks and can easily hide a Thunderhammer and/or Power Fist while coming down in a pod on a central objective, creating a no-go zone.
TWC with Thunderhammers are tough, fast and with 3D extremely good at dealing with non-terminators.
Combine all those factors and the quality combined with quantity just topples the quality we have.
Any general tips or units that are especially able to deal with SW?
Thairne wrote: So to bring this topic up a bit more and back to life - I need some advice when dealing with space wolves.
They can put out some real pressure. Bladeguards, Blood Claws, TWC in combination with Librarians, Chaplains and Judicars I find really hard to deal with.
Bladeguards are broken as is, but with exploding 6s, auto wounding hit rolls of 6 and MW on 6s are downright nasty.
Blood Claws have a fethton of attacks and can easily hide a Thunderhammer and/or Power Fist while coming down in a pod on a central objective, creating a no-go zone.
TWC with Thunderhammers are tough, fast and with 3D extremely good at dealing with non-terminators.
Combine all those factors and the quality combined with quantity just topples the quality we have.
Any general tips or units that are especially able to deal with SW?
The answer is to just dig in. Space Wolves are more mobile so you want to pick secondaries that you can grab without moving too much or by something reliable like a deep strike (deploy Scramblers for example). Grind Them Down isn't bad either.
From there, it's less a matter of killing than holding. 5-man squads of Sword+Board will be hard to clear off objectives. Don't forget Emperor's Auspice and Arcane Genetic Alchemy work on them too.
Illiastus Accelerator Culverins are ideal for shooting most of them, on whatever platform you want to use. Venatari aren't awful but have to get too close for their pistol shooting.
Jetbike Hurricane Bolters will do wonders on the light infantry. Don't forget that Stopping Dive fights first -and he can't swing at your Jetbikes after they Dive if he also charged something-. It's an extremely powerful deterrent that hinders his mobility.
I'd need to know more about the board terrain, the mission and your lists to advise further.
My current army consists of (planning to expand ofc):
1 Shield-Captain
1 Shield-Captain in Allarus
1 Shield Captain on Dawneagle
9 Shield Guard
9 Sagittarum Guard
1 Vexilus Praetor
5 Allarus
8 Vertus Praetors
1 Telemon Dread /w 2 Arachnus, 2 Illiastus and a Caestus available
The last game was yesterday, which I won 76 to 58. Mostly because he played a bit to passively, having a suboptimal army (Doggo flyer that did 4 damage to the Telemon, then got shot down by 4 Archeotech Salvo launchers) and choosing poor secondaries.
I scored max primary, 9 pts in Assassination (all characters he had), 12 in Attrition and 12 in Engage. Pic is mid turn 1 for him, going first, but we use a lot of terrain. The entire diagnoal line from bottom right to top left was obscuring with a few gaps for shooting.
Mission was Aggressive Strike.
I was playing as Shadowkeepers:
Shield Captain in Allarus
Shield Captain on Dawneagle (WL, Superior Creation)
Hurricane bolters seem kind of awful tho - even within rapid fire range, all those shots kill 4 marines on avg, less if in cover and do basically nothing against storm shields. Problems I face are the "bearing down" of TWC /w thunderhammers, eradicators, 4 dozen attacks from Blood Claws, Bladeguard veterans all buffed and protected by chaplain(s) and librarian(s). And Armour of Russ/Judiciar(s) take care of me always fighting last whereas the SW strat disabled Tanglefoot on a choice charge. Add to that autowound on 6's, MW on 6's and exploding 6's and pretty much everything just keels.
Custodes are durable, but I think the entire game I got to use my armour save once - and then only a 3+ because for some reason pistols have -1 in Assault Doctrine too So he has the numbers, the statistics, the abilities and the board control all on his side it feels like. If he optimized his list a lil', I'd expect to be tabled turn 3, turn 4 at the latest in yesterdays game.
My best friend plays space wolves, so I have at least a bit of experience against them. I'm not the best player though so take my advice with a grain of salt.
In my experience a galatus dread is surprisingly good against bladeguard. He has a lot of attacks and flat 3 dmg. He is also a really bad target for them due to being -1dmg.
Venatari are another all star unit against them in my opinion. They are fast and their pistols are just perfect at dealing with interecessors or wulfen for example (just have that CP for superior firing patterns ready). I've had a lot of success with them.
Allarus terminators also can do absolute wonders against them imo. Sniping characters with the inescapable vengeance strat can be devastating against space wolves. Their axes are surprisingly good at sniping with dmg2, and don't forget that they can also benefit from the superior firing strat, essentially doubling their shots. Taking out a judiciar or a character with armor of russ this way can be crucial.
You mentioned it in your post, but it's worth repeating again: tanglefoot grenade is imo one of our best stratagems. In my first few games I sometimes forgot to use it and it would have changed the outcome of quite a lot of fights.
Other than that...basically what audustum said. Shield guard are arguably our best unit right now for their ability to be really difficult to shift from objectives. Though in my opionion space wolves definitely have the tools to do it.
I am not a fan of the illiastus accelerator culverin on the telemon though. Not because it's bad, but the arachnus storm cannon is perfect for dealing with eradicators. Flat 3 dmg and with -4 AP they won't get a save either. I'd prefer saggitarum and/or venatari for 2dmg shooting.
My last advice is include trajann if you can make room for him. Not because he is particularly good against space wolves, but he is worth it simply due to his moment shackle. Getting a free stratagem once per game is just so good, especially considering how powerful our stratagems are. His re rolls are nice too.
Hope that helps.
Edit: Aquilon terminators are also absolute powerhouses and they offer some nice flexibility....going up against a lot of gravis stuff or blade guards? Invest in the 3dmg adrathic destructors. Their 2dmg fists are very good against marines as well.
My current army consists of (planning to expand ofc):
1 Shield-Captain
1 Shield-Captain in Allarus
1 Shield Captain on Dawneagle
9 Shield Guard
9 Sagittarum Guard
1 Vexilus Praetor
5 Allarus
8 Vertus Praetors
1 Telemon Dread /w 2 Arachnus, 2 Illiastus and a Caestus available
The last game was yesterday, which I won 76 to 58. Mostly because he played a bit to passively, having a suboptimal army (Doggo flyer that did 4 damage to the Telemon, then got shot down by 4 Archeotech Salvo launchers) and choosing poor secondaries.
I scored max primary, 9 pts in Assassination (all characters he had), 12 in Attrition and 12 in Engage. Pic is mid turn 1 for him, going first, but we use a lot of terrain. The entire diagnoal line from bottom right to top left was obscuring with a few gaps for shooting.
Mission was Aggressive Strike.
I was playing as Shadowkeepers:
Shield Captain in Allarus
Shield Captain on Dawneagle (WL, Superior Creation)
Hurricane bolters seem kind of awful tho - even within rapid fire range, all those shots kill 4 marines on avg, less if in cover and do basically nothing against storm shields. Problems I face are the "bearing down" of TWC /w thunderhammers, eradicators, 4 dozen attacks from Blood Claws, Bladeguard veterans all buffed and protected by chaplain(s) and librarian(s). And Armour of Russ/Judiciar(s) take care of me always fighting last whereas the SW strat disabled Tanglefoot on a choice charge. Add to that autowound on 6's, MW on 6's and exploding 6's and pretty much everything just keels.
Custodes are durable, but I think the entire game I got to use my armour save once - and then only a 3+ because for some reason pistols have -1 in Assault Doctrine too So he has the numbers, the statistics, the abilities and the board control all on his side it feels like. If he optimized his list a lil', I'd expect to be tabled turn 3, turn 4 at the latest in yesterdays game.
You've got some good terrain. Make sure some of it is Difficult so he gets -2 to Move and Charge. What I can see though, indicates that lots of GT 2020 missions will have objectives in cover. You should be able to take something like:
Grind Them Down
Deploy Scramblers
Linebreaker
And get some serious points up.
You're gonna want to hang back. Missions where you score 5 points for 1 objective and 2 for 10 are ideal for you. Then you don't have to expand far. Remember, you only need one turn of 15 (and the rest 10's) to max Primary. This should also give you some comfort, it means that if your opponent racks up 15's all but one turn and you only get one turn of 15, you're tied on primary. His extra points don't carry over.
With shooting and hanging back, you should get Grind Them Down easily the first two rounds. Then it's more of a fight. Remember to just slow him the heck down. Tanglefoot him in his movement phase' AND charge phase (or drain his CP by forcing him to try and stop it constantly). Use the Jetbikes as counter chargers only. It doesn't matter if they fight last -if he can't swing at them-.
Use the Allarus to (unit and HQ) to score Linebreaker and Deploy Scramblers. Remember, the goal is to get points more then kills. Don't deep strike them aiming for a charge. Whip as far back and out of the way in his deployment zone as you can. Deploy Scramblers should be an auto 10 points for you unless he holds a lot of screening back. Linebreaker gets you 4 points for every round those units stay back there (and he'll have to turn his more vicious units around, hopefully, to come back and stop you from gaining those points). These units can also be used to (SAFELY) snag a homefield objective in T4 or T5 to get you the 15 you need to max.
Hurricanes don't do alot to Storm Shields but nothing does, it's an invuln. The idea is to just beat the whole thing down with volume of fire (how you deal with any good invuln unless you can spam MW). Don't risk getting the Jetbikes charged to shoot though. The name of the game is delay, delay, delay. Remember, he doesn't auto-win even if you get tabled. You want to just drag it out as much as you can and get points.
Following all of this, it wouldn't be unusual for you to consistently get:
45 primary
10 for painted
10 for Scramblers
8 for Linebreaker
12 for Grind Them Down
Netting you an average 85 points for the match which places good odds to win.
One thing to consider is to bring a Culexus Assassin yo counteract the Armor of Russ/Judiciars. The Culexus has a fight last aura that hits every enemy in range. If you're all dropped to last, it'll return to alternating activation.
That is some absolutely brilliant advice.
I'll have to read that twice or thrice more to actually commit it to memory, but that is pretty much exactly what I was looking/hoping for!
I didnt even think of half those options you presented me with - especially the Culexus, which I own, is something that never even crossed my mind.
Also, big thanks to Tiberias above, which I didnt notice at first Having Trajan to get a Stooping Dive in... I can see the merit.
I've also eyed the Gallatus... The additional -1 to hit in melee makes him quite a breaker, at least for the cost. But since an Achillus and a Gallatus are on my to-buy list anyway, that is just more reason to get one
I'll modify my list accordingly.
Not that much can change, but I'm thinking:
I know this isn't "popular" but I've seen a pack of eversor Assassins' drop ruin a Wolf player's day several times. That Bio-meltdown can wreck an a character's day.
That is a rather low chance tho.
You need to get in combat, die, roll a 4+ for D3 MW - chances for 5+ wounds is rather small. Fighting last/alternating and having Stooping Dive in our opponents charge phase is VERY hard on your CP, but 5 jetbikes/Allarus can kill characters a bit more reliably
Thairne wrote:That is some absolutely brilliant advice.
I'll have to read that twice or thrice more to actually commit it to memory, but that is pretty much exactly what I was looking/hoping for!
I didnt even think of half those options you presented me with - especially the Culexus, which I own, is something that never even crossed my mind.
Also, big thanks to Tiberias above, which I didnt notice at first Having Trajan to get a Stooping Dive in... I can see the merit.
I've also eyed the Gallatus... The additional -1 to hit in melee makes him quite a breaker, at least for the cost. But since an Achillus and a Gallatus are on my to-buy list anyway, that is just more reason to get one
I'll modify my list accordingly.
Not that much can change, but I'm thinking:
Telemon /w Arachnus (points shook out that way, also some AT fire cant hurt - plus these, as said, destroy Gravis).
I dont intent do spend any more CP on pregame-strats since I feel I will need every CP I can get my hands on, especially with abundant tanglefooting.
Looks like a nice list. What shield host are you going to play with it? Btw I very much agree with you that spending pre-game CP is somewhat tricky. We have amazing pre-game strats, but not having enough CP left during a game for the likes of emperors auspice or superior firing patterns left can be really bad.
I'd like to hear afterwards how the culexus worked out for you.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:I know this isn't "popular" but I've seen a pack of eversor Assassins' drop ruin a Wolf player's day several times. That Bio-meltdown can wreck an a character's day.
As much as I like assassins and the eversor in particular, that plan is not very effective imo. You need multiple of them, they need to make their charges and then they are going to be fighting a judiciar and/or a character with armor of russ which makes them fight last anyway. And when they die it's a question of whether they even explode and whether they even do enough mortal wounds.
Edit: @Thairne: regarding your list I forgot to say, depending on how shooty the space wolves list is going to be (eradicators for example), a vexillus praetor with magnifica might be worth considering. He got more expensive again (which was to be expected) I know, but I think the -1 to hit can still be very valuable.
Current plan is to go again with Shadowkeepers.
The -1S strat is imo one of the best defensive ones we have - it reduces Bladeguard against infantry, Melta and Thunderhammers quite nice when targeting dreads.
Next game gonna take a while naturally, I might even have more models available (Galatus/Pallas mostly). I'm mostly worried about the CP cost of the Soul Horror strat to just counter a basically free relic, but we'll see.
So far the list he brought is not shooty at all - single unit if devastators and a eradicator squad with standard rifles were all noticable shooting. Against the SoB however...
Now, I know what your thinking; A double fist telemon?
Well, i've played with the storm cannon version as a backfield holder and its fine that way, but i really find myself lacking the models or ability to push into my opponents table edge with just the ares and bike captain, so I think my deep striking double fist telemon is gonna give me the push. All its costing me is for my sag guard to hang back (mabey with the 3 man shield guard squad if I think my opponents can get to them fast). The addition of the inquisitor is gonna give me a reliable CP generation method and a deny, not to mention the Cyclonic torpedo strat for turn 1 nastiness.
Engage is almost guarenteed 3 points a turn with the ares, telemon, and biker captain. After that i dont have any easy secondaries, but kill secondaries can be achieved. If no good kill secondaries I can go for mission specifics, linebreaker, or domination depending on opponent. Trajann, the 4 man squad, and the tank can go up one flank, while biker captain and ares blaze up the other side.
Biggest factor is I own all these models and they look good on the tabletop.
Hey folks, new collector here.
As i am in my early steps of my collection, i wish to know what FW dread i should get for a general porpuse use for casual and drop-in games?
I kinda want all 3 versions but my wallet cant allow that( shipping, import tax, and VAT on top of the salesprice), so i have to limit myself to just one.
And yes, this is more me beeing a dread fan above anything else, as the reason to why i want a FW dread.
FrozenDwarf wrote: Hey folks, new collector here.
As i am in my early steps of my collection, i wish to know what FW dread i should get for a general porpuse use for casual and drop-in games?
I kinda want all 3 versions but my wallet cant allow that( shipping, import tax, and VAT on top of the salesprice), so i have to limit myself to just one.
And yes, this is more me beeing a dread fan above anything else, as the reason to why i want a FW dread.
Ok, good question. I own and play all three. The best FW dread is still the telemon. Both the achillus and the galatus can do good work also. The galatus is more suited against multi-wound heavy infantry and the achillus is great against vehicles.
Now which one should you pick. Imo that depends. Generally I would say pick the one which you like most visually, but from a gaming and list building perspective I strongly believe that you can't go wrong with a telemon.
Regarding telemon loadouts, all of them can work, even double fist, but arachnus storm cannon+fist is arguably the most versatile option.
If you have never assembled FW models and especially FW dreadnoughts, be aware that you are going to have to work with super glue, which means you kinda have to know beforehand which pose you want for your dreadnought.
I have built and painted both a galatus and a telemon and my best advice is to pre assemble the model with something that can be easily removed later like blutack until you find a pose you like, then take a fine sharpie and draw a line over some joints which are made up from multiple parts so you can later recreate the pose when you remove the blutack and glue everything in place with super glue. Also wash each part of the model first in soapy water to remove remnants of release agent from the casting process to ensure your primer adheres to the model properly.
Edit:
I'm also a big advocate for accountability when giving advice on how to build such expensive models, so here are my examples to give you an impression and show that my advice actually gives decent results:
Spoiler:
One last thing: if you are into that, the weapon options for the telemon are very easy to magnetise. You need disc shaped neodym magnets with 2mm height and 6mm diameter.
Can anyone find a clear example of how our Tangle foot grenades work now with Deathguard's IA? It seems they can just charge right through our tanglefoots. Also, I am betting this invalidates things like Quake Cannons and other charge stopping attacks. Oh well, I wanted to be in melee anyway, if you are dumb enough to charge me, then prepare to reap the whirlwind of my many random damage attacks!
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Can anyone find a clear example of how our Tangle foot grenades work now with Deathguard's IA? It seems they can just charge right through our tanglefoots. Also, I am betting this invalidates things like Quake Cannons and other charge stopping attacks. Oh well, I wanted to be in melee anyway, if you are dumb enough to charge me, then prepare to reap the whirlwind of my many random damage attacks!
tanglefoot does not work in the movement phase but it does work in the charge phase. Tanglefoot's wording says that it only modifies the charged distance not the charge roll. GW's fact says that difficult terrain is not stopped by inoxerable advance because it affects the move distance not the move characteristic. since tango foot is affecting distance in the charge phase it's just like difficult terrain and slows the charge down.
I thought the wording of the new FAQ says it applies to "All movement altering affects, in every phase". Charges include movement, a few people over in the DG sub say that RAW Tanglefoot no longer works against IA, but no one has clear proof. I'll drop a thread in YMDC....sorry for wrong thread.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I thought the wording of the new FAQ says it applies to "All movement altering affects, in every phase". Charges include movement, a few people over in the DG sub say that RAW Tanglefoot no longer works against IA, but no one has clear proof. I'll drop a thread in YMDC....sorry for wrong thread.
So this is not the FAQ. The FAQ that was dropped the day before yesterday explicitly says that in oxfordable advance does not stop difficult terrain. it goes further and says that the reason it does not stop difficult terrain is because difficult terrain does not affect the movement characteristic but instead affects the move distance.
If you look at the wording of tanglefoot, when tanglefoot is used in the movement phase it modifies the move characteristic. This means inoxerable advance will stop it. when tanglefoot is used in the charge phase it does not modify the charge roll. The stratagem specifically says it modifies the charge distance. Since it is just modifying the distance, just like difficult terrain modifies the move distance, it's still applies. The Death Guard player saying that are wrong.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Thank you. I am trying to be less hyperbolic, and I was really disheartened by this apparent change.
Oh I thought you were fine. It's definitely a confusing situation we're in.
Inexorable Advance: "...If this unit has the INFANTRY keyword, it can ignore any or all modifiers to its Move characteristic, Advance rolls and charge rolls."
Tanglefoot Grenade: "...Your opponent must reduce that unit’s Movement characteristic or charge distance by the result until the end of the phase. Units with the FLY keyword are not affected."
Difficult Ground: "If a unit makes a Normal Move, Advances, Falls Back or it makes a charge move, and any of its models wish to move over any part of this terrain feature, subtract 2" from the maximum distance that every model in that unit can move..."
The distinction in the charge phase is the fact that Tanglefoot modifies the charge distance, not the charge roll. Maybe GW will change it when we get a Codex, but for now it should work fine on IA for the same reason Difficult Ground works.
They had Silent king, 2 squads sword and board lych guard at 5 strong, a big squad of lychguard with spears, 2 full squads of canoptek spiders, a squad of 6 tomb blades, a Triarch stalker, a technomancer, and a small squad of the fast moving lychguard (forgot the name).
I went first and he failed a big charge when he ported into my backfield so that went all in my favor. At the end of the game I had only lost 1 galatus, my vertus praetors, and my bike captain to his army being tabled.
The -1 damage on almost the whole army was pretty harsh for him (ashamed not everyone gets it). He told me he was kinda expecting terminators, and yes his army would have probably mulched them.
Hey guys, silly noob question here. I've lately been considering starting a Custodes army as I could start one cheaper than a lot of other armies, outside of Forge World stuff. The question is, is it possible to make a competitive Custodes list (or at least semi-competitive) without taking any of the super expensive (in terms of $$$) Forge World units? Playing around in Battlescribe, I reasoned that I could make an army by combining the one Custodes set I own (from the Burning of Prospero box) with 2 more boxes of Guardians, 2 boxes of Allarus Custodians, and 3 boxes of Jetbikes, and that it wouldn't break the bank for me to do so. I'd probably also pick up Trajann Valoris just so I have a few options. Plus the Codex and whatever PA book has the subfaction rules in it. Would that be any good, or am I likely to just be a punching bag if I were not to pick up any Forge World stuff?
No forgeworld models, highly competitive if played correctly. Alot of people rag on the vindicare, but he gives you a very punchy hidden threat for characters.
You take banners and domination almost every game. Third option would be up in the air depending on opponent. Play super cagey and hide as much as possible while still running up onto objectives.
They had Silent king, 2 squads sword and board lych guard at 5 strong, a big squad of lychguard with spears, 2 full squads of canoptek spiders, a squad of 6 tomb blades, a Triarch stalker, a technomancer, and a small squad of the fast moving lychguard (forgot the name).
I went first and he failed a big charge when he ported into my backfield so that went all in my favor. At the end of the game I had only lost 1 galatus, my vertus praetors, and my bike captain to his army being tabled.
The -1 damage on almost the whole army was pretty harsh for him (ashamed not everyone gets it). He told me he was kinda expecting terminators, and yes his army would have probably mulched them.
I dont' want to take anything away from but you this matchup was highly stacked against the necrons player. He had basically no chance. I hope he is not pissed at you ^^
ZergSmasher wrote: Hey guys, silly noob question here. I've lately been considering starting a Custodes army as I could start one cheaper than a lot of other armies, outside of Forge World stuff. The question is, is it possible to make a competitive Custodes list (or at least semi-competitive) without taking any of the super expensive (in terms of $$$) Forge World units? Playing around in Battlescribe, I reasoned that I could make an army by combining the one Custodes set I own (from the Burning of Prospero box) with 2 more boxes of Guardians, 2 boxes of Allarus Custodians, and 3 boxes of Jetbikes, and that it wouldn't break the bank for me to do so. I'd probably also pick up Trajann Valoris just so I have a few options. Plus the Codex and whatever PA book has the subfaction rules in it. Would that be any good, or am I likely to just be a punching bag if I were not to pick up any Forge World stuff?
Right now the best Custodes list in the game is almost entirely GW stock Sword and Shield flat out all accross the board, just camping objectives, and not killing anything. It's so broken with the new 9th system, that some have called for nerfs. I have had a lot of fun with an all Bike List. It doesn't hold objectives as well, but you actually get to roll dice in the shooting phase, which is more fun for me.
They had Silent king, 2 squads sword and board lych guard at 5 strong, a big squad of lychguard with spears, 2 full squads of canoptek spiders, a squad of 6 tomb blades, a Triarch stalker, a technomancer, and a small squad of the fast moving lychguard (forgot the name).
I went first and he failed a big charge when he ported into my backfield so that went all in my favor. At the end of the game I had only lost 1 galatus, my vertus praetors, and my bike captain to his army being tabled.
The -1 damage on almost the whole army was pretty harsh for him (ashamed not everyone gets it). He told me he was kinda expecting terminators, and yes his army would have probably mulched them.
You are my hero for bringing 3 achillus and 3 galatus...fkin awesome. Which one did you like more? How did you like your shooty telemon? Would you have used a fist on them in hindsight or was the double arachnus just fine?
They had Silent king, 2 squads sword and board lych guard at 5 strong, a big squad of lychguard with spears, 2 full squads of canoptek spiders, a squad of 6 tomb blades, a Triarch stalker, a technomancer, and a small squad of the fast moving lychguard (forgot the name).
I went first and he failed a big charge when he ported into my backfield so that went all in my favor. At the end of the game I had only lost 1 galatus, my vertus praetors, and my bike captain to his army being tabled.
The -1 damage on almost the whole army was pretty harsh for him (ashamed not everyone gets it). He told me he was kinda expecting terminators, and yes his army would have probably mulched them.
I'm laughing because I, independently from you, made the same list. Must have something to it! My version didn't bring the squad of 3 Jetbikes though. I brought a Culexus and a barebones squad of Sag Guard instead.
The list ran great. Mostly because it invalidated all his infantry though. Both dreads are fine, but you have to use Achilles as a bully threat since they are a bit more vunerable. I put all 3 galatus facing up againgst the silent king and the 3 achilles on the other side of the table and out of LOS of those mehnirs.
The achilles will kill basically anything that gets into melee with them so just position them in a maner that your opponent gets the charge off on one of them and the other 2 get to go ham.
3 galatus moving together is scary, especially if you have some dense terrain nearbye. They can advance turn 1 and be in threat range turn 2.
I took the bikes for some extra speed and anti-infantry. I had alot of quality attacks so I wanted to make sure I had some way to deal with hoards and hurricane bolters are the way to go there.
The storm cannon telemon is probably overcosted a bit. Im not sure how much though. Its better at anti-infantry than anti-vehicle though since if it stands still it gets 22 shots. Its not a bad model though, since it holds backfield objectives pretty good.
I know, I know, Valerian is not good. I'm tempted to pay his tax to bring Aleya for a character protected Sister. Have their rules been published anywhere official *besides* the box the models come in?
Audustum wrote: I know, I know, Valerian is not good. I'm tempted to pay his tax to bring Aleya for a character protected Sister. Have their rules been published anywhere official *besides* the box the models come in?
They were made legal in the last FAQ regarding their keywords and such if I recall correctly. But what would aleya give you that a culexus can't?
Audustum wrote: I know, I know, Valerian is not good. I'm tempted to pay his tax to bring Aleya for a character protected Sister. Have their rules been published anywhere official *besides* the box the models come in?
They were made legal in the last FAQ regarding their keywords and such if I recall correctly. But what would aleya give you that a culexus can't?
Sisters 4+ denial stratagem. In addition, Aleya's aura will stack with the Culexus's for -3 to all psykers within 18". It's a nice boost for her arguable 100 points. The only reason it's not an auto for me is because of the extra 100 point Valerian tax that comes with it.
Audustum wrote: I know, I know, Valerian is not good. I'm tempted to pay his tax to bring Aleya for a character protected Sister. Have their rules been published anywhere official *besides* the box the models come in?
They were made legal in the last FAQ regarding their keywords and such if I recall correctly. But what would aleya give you that a culexus can't?
Sisters 4+ denial stratagem. In addition, Aleya's aura will stack with the Culexus's for -3 to all psykers within 18". It's a nice boost for her arguable 100 points. The only reason it's not an auto for me is because of the extra 100 point Valerian tax that comes with it.
Thats nifty, cool idea. I'm just hoping that valerian gets at least somewhat decent in our new codex.
Having her in the list gives you access to a few strats and the stacking - to cast.
You get access to a -1 to hit strat to a unit thats within 6" of her, the deny strat (which is on a 3+ after you fail to Deny the Witch), and the double perils damage strat (when they perils they take 2d3 mortals instead of 1d3 for 1 CP).
Team her up with a cheap inquisitor (for the deny attempt you need to use her strat) and get access to all the inquisitor strats as well.
Valerian isnt special, but he doesnt need to be. Just make Trajann your warlord for the 12" heroic intervention bubble and take dreadhost. Give your terminator vexilla the ASA warlord trait so he's a buff machine and the eagles eye relic.
Turn one you use Moment shackle to do a free Execution bombardment on your opponents force for free mortals and be on your way.
High mobility with anti-tank threat. Also some midfield presence. Trajann stays with the termies and runs down the middle while the bike captain and the 2 small squads of vertus run up one flank and the big squad runs down the other flank. Turn 1 your hurricane bolters and aquillons can advance and fire their bolters to clear any chaff that pops out of destroyed transports from your missle bikes. Turn 2 your in position to charge basically anything.
If you happen to kill a character their next strat costs an extra CP.
I don't see Val and Alley getting any new rules updates. GW doesn't really look back on it's black library characters unless they get released as a sort of Campaign set like Ragnar. Besides, while Aleya sucks, Val is not a bad SC profile, he's actually a semi-decent beat stick. He has the profile all spears should have. S7 AP3 D3 damage.
Guard are really trash tier this edition so far. Bikes will mop them up quickly, but for their big stuff go Terminators. Aquillons with firepikes and fists will wreck their poop.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I don't see Val and Alley getting any new rules updates. GW doesn't really look back on it's black library characters unless they get released as a sort of Campaign set like Ragnar. Besides, while Aleya sucks, Val is not a bad SC profile, he's actually a semi-decent beat stick. He has the profile all spears should have. S7 AP3 D3 damage.
Guard are really trash tier this edition so far. Bikes will mop them up quickly, but for their big stuff go Terminators. Aquillons with firepikes and fists will wreck their poop.
Nah, cmon. You really think so? I mean you are right, black library character releases are in an awkward place regarding rules updates, but I still remain hopefull that Valerian and Aleya both feature in our 9th ed codex.
Sly Marbo gets left out, as do all the other Guard characters from the books. The only characters we are seeing from BL make it into the Codex's in 9th are primaries, like Chapter Masters or Chief Librarians. Dante and Mephiston. I can't think of many below the rank of Captain that are coming to the tabletop in the Codex. Even the new book captain was left out of the codex even though his book pre-dated the codex.
I am really hoping that Val gets a new book, I like his fluff. How he dismisses the Primaris as same old same old, and slices them apart.
Odd, just checked and yhea, "not available online". Most frustrating as I was planning on getting one soon. Equally odd, the aquillon combo pack is not available online despite the both types of aquillon being in stock.
They're changing the shelf code.
This was explained a few times by the warcome feed - he automated system online hasn't update yet. Happened with the HH apothecaries, contemptor fist and the DA plasma guys as well.
Just a heads-up - the Galatus Dread was "no longer available" as well, as my shopping cart told me and now is back to "out of stock". So there's a good chance it indeed is the usual FW fethery and the achillus will be back soon as well. Which would be nice, as I have a basketfull of FW models and wish to pull the trigger.. And the Achillus is missing in that.
since i can't keep up with all the space marines updates, I was thinking to switch to custodes. I already play them in HH and I was wondering if I have enough models to play 40k. At the moment I have 20 custodes (9 with powerfists and shields, 10 with spear and 1 captain with spear), 1 telemon, 9 bikes and 2 caladius grav tank annihilators.
since i can't keep up with all the space marines updates, I was thinking to switch to custodes. I already play them in HH and I was wondering if I have enough models to play 40k. At the moment I have 20 custodes (9 with powerfists and shields, 10 with spear and 1 captain with spear), 1 telemon, 9 bikes and 2 caladius grav tank annihilators.
Thanks in advice,
Spado
Custodes are great in 40k right now, they play very well into the 9th ed mission design. Unfortunately in 40k custodes can't take powerfists and shields, we have no rules or models for hetaeron guard (yet...I still hope we get them someday), though I would say you could easily play them as custodian guard with storm shield and sentinel blade.
The telemon is still one of the best dreadnoughts in the game and all of his weapon loadouts can work in 40k, even double fist. The caladius is still a very good tank, but is not seen as often anymore as he was in 8th ed, still a strong unit. The jetbikes are always solid, though of the two units available I would favor the dawneagle jetbikes over the agamatus jetbikes from forgeworld.
Assuming you play your custodes with powerfist and shield as the 40k sword and board guys, you are a bit over 2500points when you field every model you have. That gives you some room to play for a 2000p list. So to answer your main question: yes, you have more than enough models to play 40k.
As for units that you might consider when switching to 40k:
- Trajann Valoris, the current captain general is great and is used in a lot of lists because of his strong abilities.
- Terminators....in all varieties. Allarus terminators are great and Aquilon terminators from forgeworld are also amazing right now
- Venatari are also a very good, fast unit right now that can put out incredible firepower due to new stratagem support.
- Galatus/Achillus dreadnoughts are also rather strong right now. The galatus excels against heavy infantry and is very hard to shift. The achillus has amazing damage output in shooting, but especially in melee. He can murderize most vehicles and monsters in the game quite easily. The achillus is not as survivable as the galatus though.
All the additional things I have listed are not necessary to make a decent custodes list. The models you own are plenty strong to make a good list, but if you get one thing, get Trajann, because he can give your caladius tanks rerolls to hit and wound, which is really good.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I'm legit confused by PF/SS Custodians? Did I miss a configuration for Aquillon Terminators?
Talk about redonk. S10 3d punching with no downside, and a 1+3++ +1 to save rolls?
It might be something in 30k, but not 40k.
In 30k custodes can field the hetaeron guard, which can be equipped with storm shields and power fists. These are the guys that literally stand next to the emperor, therefore their elite status even among the ten thousand.
Edit: in 40k the hetaeron guard are basically synonimus with the 300 companions who literally stand guard next to the golden throne 24/7.
*Grumble* My friends are asking me to get back into the game due to them hearing good things about 9th. I still have my Custodes from 8th as I never got rid of them. What would you advice as essential model pick-up to get back to competitive with them.
Khadorstompy wrote: *Grumble* My friends are asking me to get back into the game due to them hearing good things about 9th. I still have my Custodes from 8th as I never got rid of them. What would you advice as essential model pick-up to get back to competitive with them.
You are already very well equipped imo. You can build a decent list with what you have, but maybe not cutting edge competitive.
If you want to invest into new stuff here's my humble opinion on what to get:
- Trajann valoris: strong buffs and abilities, sees play in most lists
- more shield and sword custodian guard, they are our best troop choice right now and play the missions very well
- more terminators, both allarus and aquilon are great
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I'm legit confused by PF/SS Custodians? Did I miss a configuration for Aquillon Terminators?
Talk about redonk. S10 3d punching with no downside, and a 1+3++ +1 to save rolls?
In 30k your basic custodes can be equipped with powerfists and stormshields but apparently I cannot do that in 40k xD.
@Tiberias: thanks a lot for your answer!
Last question for now: should I wait before buying the codex? Are there any rumors about when the ninth edition codex will be available?
Cheers,
Spado
Nothing about a new codex, could be in two months, could be at the end of the year....maybe even later. Our current codex is a bit outdated right now obviously, but it is still viable, especially with the additional rules from psychic awakening war of the spider.
It also depends on how badly you want to play right now and if you even have an opportunity to play right now, depending on where you are from. We are in a global pandemic after all, so if you are in some sort of lockdown right now, you can hold off from buying the codex and war of the spider because you probably won't be gaming anyway.
If you are into custodes lore, the codex is worth buying. There are some nice background tidbits in there imo.
Two part question, but if I wanted to drop a few hundred bucks on FW stuff to flesh out Custodes, where would I begin? We're mostly competitive players, so viability and things which lift up the army in general would be great.
Second... a LOT of Custodes stuff on Forgeworld seems to be sold out. Is that typical, or are they downsizing their lines again?
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Two part question, but if I wanted to drop a few hundred bucks on FW stuff to flesh out Custodes, where would I begin? We're mostly competitive players, so viability and things which lift up the army in general would be great.
Second... a LOT of Custodes stuff on Forgeworld seems to be sold out. Is that typical, or are they downsizing their lines again?
I saw someone previously say that they are re-doing the product codes which is why they're listed as unavailable.
The most competitive things currently are the Dreads.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Two part question, but if I wanted to drop a few hundred bucks on FW stuff to flesh out Custodes, where would I begin? We're mostly competitive players, so viability and things which lift up the army in general would be great.
Second... a LOT of Custodes stuff on Forgeworld seems to be sold out. Is that typical, or are they downsizing their lines again?
I saw someone previously say that they are re-doing the product codes which is why they're listed as unavailable.
The most competitive things currently are the Dreads.
While everything Audustum said is true, I just wanted to throw in venatari as a suggestion. I am biased towards them, I'll be the first to admit that, but they are great nonetheless and they pop up more and more in competitive lists.
That guy was me. And I got it from our Discord, where a regular told me so.
The Gallatus went back to temporarily not available and the Telemon is also gone for now. I cant imagine them axeing THAT model.
But considering everything - Telemons are excellent. Mostly used with Arachnus, but you get durable ranged AT and - if you give him fists, can punch through anything. Galatus and Achilles are awesome in their own roles as well.
Venetarii shine if you let them double-tap their pistols via strat support.
Aquilon Custodians are hot right now too - Powerfists with no to-hit malus are a threat to anything.
And last but not least, the humble palas grav-attack - always good to zoom to an objective or flyer-like snipe a character.
Thairne wrote: That guy was me. And I got it from our Discord, where a regular told me so.
The Gallatus went back to temporarily not available and the Telemon is also gone for now. I cant imagine them axeing THAT model.
But considering everything - Telemons are excellent. Mostly used with Arachnus, but you get durable ranged AT and - if you give him fists, can punch through anything. Galatus and Achilles are awesome in their own roles as well.
Venetarii shine if you let them double-tap their pistols via strat support.
Aquilon Custodians are hot right now too - Powerfists with no to-hit malus are a threat to anything.
And last but not least, the humble palas grav-attack - always good to zoom to an objective or flyer-like snipe a character.
It was you!
I will say only be careful with the Aquillons. They're one of my favorites, but they are doing you no favors in a matchup against Death Guard since they become 1 damage.
I'm glad to hear what's "good" aligns with my own rule of cool. I love Dreads (I own 16 different varieties across all my 40k armies) and Termies, so I am excited to build my shopping list around a bunch of those! Thanks guys.
What do you guys think about this list? Game plan is to take Trajann with the sagittarium guard and dreadnought up the middle, while the vertus praetors and venatari go wherever they need to be alongside the bike captain. The shield squad is parked on one objective and likely just stays there.
I went with strategic mastermind and lockwarden on the bike captain because strategic mastermind should pay for itself and lockwarden allows him to hunt characters better.
Things I have considered:
-making the bike captain the standard superior creation, indomitable constitution beefcake.
-cutting the shield squad and instead going for a squad of prosecutors to have some cheap backfield objective holding
-arachnus storm cannon instead of accelerator culverin on the telemon
Your kill Squad of Sag+Trajaan will get reliably deleted fairly quickly by several of the more common armies in 9th. Everything is too killy now. With Custodes, it's sit back, and camp objectives=win. Boring, but save for our dreads, charging up the middle like the charge of the Light Brigade ends just as tragically.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Your kill Squad of Sag+Trajaan will get reliably deleted fairly quickly by several of the more common armies in 9th. Everything is too killy now. With Custodes, it's sit back, and camp objectives=win. Boring, but save for our dreads, charging up the middle like the charge of the Light Brigade ends just as tragically.
Well yes, but no. Sure many things are killy in 9th, but considering out stratagem support, it takes a lot to delete 5 saggitarum. And if the opponent is determined to do so and invests a lot of his resources and CP into doing so, I'm totally fine with it, because I have 5 other units that pose an even greater threat.
Maybe I phrased it poorly, but the intention isn't to just charge up the middle, but get onto a center objective an hold it. Now there is of course an argument to be made that shield guard are better suited for that, but I thought having a unit that can be dangerous while sitting on an objective like the saggitarum is also worth considering.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Your kill Squad of Sag+Trajaan will get reliably deleted fairly quickly by several of the more common armies in 9th. Everything is too killy now. With Custodes, it's sit back, and camp objectives=win. Boring, but save for our dreads, charging up the middle like the charge of the Light Brigade ends just as tragically.
Well yes, but no. Sure many things are killy in 9th, but considering out stratagem support, it takes a lot to delete 5 saggitarum. And if the opponent is determined to do so and invests a lot of his resources and CP into doing so, I'm totally fine with it, because I have 5 other units that pose an even greater threat.
Maybe I phrased it poorly, but the intention isn't to just charge up the middle, but get onto a center objective an hold it. Now there is of course an argument to be made that shield guard are better suited for that, but I thought having a unit that can be dangerous while sitting on an objective like the saggitarum is also worth considering.
We're still fairly durable until you slam into AdMech or the MW-spam-Chaos-Soup list (Magnus, Lord of Change, Ahriman, giant blob of horrors, Deamon Prince, other stuff, does about 15-40 MW a turn). Against AdMech, Sags are probably just gonna melt (but everything does except MAYBE sword+board, I haven't tried them on the Mars crew since their buff). Everything is gonna melt to those though so not much you can do about it.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Your kill Squad of Sag+Trajaan will get reliably deleted fairly quickly by several of the more common armies in 9th. Everything is too killy now. With Custodes, it's sit back, and camp objectives=win. Boring, but save for our dreads, charging up the middle like the charge of the Light Brigade ends just as tragically.
Well yes, but no. Sure many things are killy in 9th, but considering out stratagem support, it takes a lot to delete 5 saggitarum. And if the opponent is determined to do so and invests a lot of his resources and CP into doing so, I'm totally fine with it, because I have 5 other units that pose an even greater threat.
Maybe I phrased it poorly, but the intention isn't to just charge up the middle, but get onto a center objective an hold it. Now there is of course an argument to be made that shield guard are better suited for that, but I thought having a unit that can be dangerous while sitting on an objective like the saggitarum is also worth considering.
We're still fairly durable until you slam into AdMech or the MW-spam-Chaos-Soup list (Magnus, Lord of Change, Ahriman, giant blob of horrors, Deamon Prince, other stuff, does about 15-40 MW a turn). Against AdMech, Sags are probably just gonna melt (but everything does except MAYBE sword+board, I haven't tried them on the Mars crew since their buff). Everything is gonna melt to those though so not much you can do about it.
I'm not sure how I would deal with 15-40 mw a turn unless I properly tech into sisters and/or a culexus. But I mean every faction has a bad match up.
As for admech, yeah I agree...dakkabots with full rerolls and wrath of mars is arguably the most lethal shooting potential in the game. But if I went up against admech and my opponent chose to melt my saggitarum, wouldn't he kinda do me a favor, because I my bikes and dreadnoughts pose a bigger threat?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Your kill Squad of Sag+Trajaan will get reliably deleted fairly quickly by several of the more common armies in 9th. Everything is too killy now. With Custodes, it's sit back, and camp objectives=win. Boring, but save for our dreads, charging up the middle like the charge of the Light Brigade ends just as tragically.
Well yes, but no. Sure many things are killy in 9th, but considering out stratagem support, it takes a lot to delete 5 saggitarum. And if the opponent is determined to do so and invests a lot of his resources and CP into doing so, I'm totally fine with it, because I have 5 other units that pose an even greater threat.
Maybe I phrased it poorly, but the intention isn't to just charge up the middle, but get onto a center objective an hold it. Now there is of course an argument to be made that shield guard are better suited for that, but I thought having a unit that can be dangerous while sitting on an objective like the saggitarum is also worth considering.
We're still fairly durable until you slam into AdMech or the MW-spam-Chaos-Soup list (Magnus, Lord of Change, Ahriman, giant blob of horrors, Deamon Prince, other stuff, does about 15-40 MW a turn). Against AdMech, Sags are probably just gonna melt (but everything does except MAYBE sword+board, I haven't tried them on the Mars crew since their buff). Everything is gonna melt to those though so not much you can do about it.
I'm not sure how I would deal with 15-40 mw a turn unless I properly tech into sisters and/or a culexus. But I mean every faction has a bad match up.
As for admech, yeah I agree...dakkabots with full rerolls and wrath of mars is arguably the most lethal shooting potential in the game. But if I went up against admech and my opponent chose to melt my saggitarum, wouldn't he kinda do me a favor, because I my bikes and dreadnoughts pose a bigger threat?
The Chaos soup list is gaining prominence so the only concern is it may be a meta staple if you're doing tournaments. Makes hitting it more likely.
Last time I fought AdMech, they just blew everything off the board. Their gunline prowess is truly terrifying. Someone wrote this for a different army, but it applies to us too:
attempts a 9 inch charge
then dies along with big bird
from the return fire
while you clench your butthole trying to make 4000 3++s but they don't care and even bird is like hey, i'm dead
AdMech is less about what you bring and more about how you move on terrain and taking very passive, defensive secondaries.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Your kill Squad of Sag+Trajaan will get reliably deleted fairly quickly by several of the more common armies in 9th. Everything is too killy now. With Custodes, it's sit back, and camp objectives=win. Boring, but save for our dreads, charging up the middle like the charge of the Light Brigade ends just as tragically.
Well yes, but no. Sure many things are killy in 9th, but considering out stratagem support, it takes a lot to delete 5 saggitarum. And if the opponent is determined to do so and invests a lot of his resources and CP into doing so, I'm totally fine with it, because I have 5 other units that pose an even greater threat.
Maybe I phrased it poorly, but the intention isn't to just charge up the middle, but get onto a center objective an hold it. Now there is of course an argument to be made that shield guard are better suited for that, but I thought having a unit that can be dangerous while sitting on an objective like the saggitarum is also worth considering.
We're still fairly durable until you slam into AdMech or the MW-spam-Chaos-Soup list (Magnus, Lord of Change, Ahriman, giant blob of horrors, Deamon Prince, other stuff, does about 15-40 MW a turn). Against AdMech, Sags are probably just gonna melt (but everything does except MAYBE sword+board, I haven't tried them on the Mars crew since their buff). Everything is gonna melt to those though so not much you can do about it.
I'm not sure how I would deal with 15-40 mw a turn unless I properly tech into sisters and/or a culexus. But I mean every faction has a bad match up.
As for admech, yeah I agree...dakkabots with full rerolls and wrath of mars is arguably the most lethal shooting potential in the game. But if I went up against admech and my opponent chose to melt my saggitarum, wouldn't he kinda do me a favor, because I my bikes and dreadnoughts pose a bigger threat?
The Chaos soup list is gaining prominence so the only concern is it may be a meta staple if you're doing tournaments. Makes hitting it more likely.
Last time I fought AdMech, they just blew everything off the board. Their gunline prowess is truly terrifying. Someone wrote this for a different army, but it applies to us too:
attempts a 9 inch charge
then dies along with big bird
from the return fire
while you clench your butthole trying to make 4000 3++s but they don't care and even bird is like hey, i'm dead
AdMech is less about what you bring and more about how you move on terrain and taking very passive, defensive secondaries.
A good friend recently picked up admech and really likes dakkabots, so I'll be facing that more recently I suppose. What secondaries would you recommend against them? Something like attrition, engage, and raise the banners?
No tournaments where I'm from in the forseeable future, so I'm not as concerned about the Chaos soup list...for now. Also let's say that list becomes a meta list and the chances are rather high that you run into it....how do you deal with that? One culexus probably won't be enough against such a psychic output and teching into a lot of sisters kinda weakens our ability to deal with other lists doesn't it?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Your kill Squad of Sag+Trajaan will get reliably deleted fairly quickly by several of the more common armies in 9th. Everything is too killy now. With Custodes, it's sit back, and camp objectives=win. Boring, but save for our dreads, charging up the middle like the charge of the Light Brigade ends just as tragically.
Well yes, but no. Sure many things are killy in 9th, but considering out stratagem support, it takes a lot to delete 5 saggitarum. And if the opponent is determined to do so and invests a lot of his resources and CP into doing so, I'm totally fine with it, because I have 5 other units that pose an even greater threat.
Maybe I phrased it poorly, but the intention isn't to just charge up the middle, but get onto a center objective an hold it. Now there is of course an argument to be made that shield guard are better suited for that, but I thought having a unit that can be dangerous while sitting on an objective like the saggitarum is also worth considering.
We're still fairly durable until you slam into AdMech or the MW-spam-Chaos-Soup list (Magnus, Lord of Change, Ahriman, giant blob of horrors, Deamon Prince, other stuff, does about 15-40 MW a turn). Against AdMech, Sags are probably just gonna melt (but everything does except MAYBE sword+board, I haven't tried them on the Mars crew since their buff). Everything is gonna melt to those though so not much you can do about it.
I'm not sure how I would deal with 15-40 mw a turn unless I properly tech into sisters and/or a culexus. But I mean every faction has a bad match up.
As for admech, yeah I agree...dakkabots with full rerolls and wrath of mars is arguably the most lethal shooting potential in the game. But if I went up against admech and my opponent chose to melt my saggitarum, wouldn't he kinda do me a favor, because I my bikes and dreadnoughts pose a bigger threat?
The Chaos soup list is gaining prominence so the only concern is it may be a meta staple if you're doing tournaments. Makes hitting it more likely.
Last time I fought AdMech, they just blew everything off the board. Their gunline prowess is truly terrifying. Someone wrote this for a different army, but it applies to us too:
attempts a 9 inch charge
then dies along with big bird
from the return fire
while you clench your butthole trying to make 4000 3++s but they don't care and even bird is like hey, i'm dead
AdMech is less about what you bring and more about how you move on terrain and taking very passive, defensive secondaries.
A good friend recently picked up admech and really likes dakkabots, so I'll be facing that more recently I suppose. What secondaries would you recommend against them? Something like attrition, engage, and raise the banners?
No tournaments where I'm from in the forseeable future, so I'm not as concerned about the Chaos soup list...for now. Also let's say that list becomes a meta list and the chances are rather high that you run into it....how do you deal with that? One culexus probably won't be enough against such a psychic output and teching into a lot of sisters kinda weakens our ability to deal with other lists doesn't it?
So I've been trying to develop counters to the Chaos soup list for about 3 weeks now. It mostly boils down to: Bring a Culexus, snag 2-3 prosecutor squads (you have 6 elite slots in a battalion) for 180 points and shove them up mid-field. Aim and fire at Magnus whenever you get the opportunity. Ignore the LoC, he's almost impossible to kill. If you're fighting a variant with Morty, prioritize him over Magnus (he's squishier too, as crazy as that sounds).
For AdMech, the mission specific secondary is always a good thing to check. There are some you can double up on (like Dominate + the one that is for Sweep and Clear, I think). Engage is good if you're running speedy Custodes (Bikes, Venatarii). Banners is O.K. on 6 objective maps. Deploy Scramblers is always a safe secondary when you are unfavored in a match-up (deep strike one small unit to get the one off in the enemy deployment zone). AdMech has no deny the witch so if you can hang in the center bring an Inquisitor and do Psychic Ritual (but that's AdMech specific, normally you want a Culexus in that slot). They're going to use Serberys Dogs to try and pin you in your deployment zone so you can't score primary. Be up against your deployment line and use the heroic intervention strat (if going second) to try and break the wall early. Linebreaker can work if the terrain has no-vision slots in deployment zones. Get a HQ and one unti deep struck in that corner and just hang on for points.
Dakkabots are most terrifying with Wrath of Mars. With Cawl behind them, it's something like 4-5 MW per bot. So a squad of 5 is putting about 20MW plus normal damage on a target.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Your kill Squad of Sag+Trajaan will get reliably deleted fairly quickly by several of the more common armies in 9th. Everything is too killy now. With Custodes, it's sit back, and camp objectives=win. Boring, but save for our dreads, charging up the middle like the charge of the Light Brigade ends just as tragically.
Well yes, but no. Sure many things are killy in 9th, but considering out stratagem support, it takes a lot to delete 5 saggitarum. And if the opponent is determined to do so and invests a lot of his resources and CP into doing so, I'm totally fine with it, because I have 5 other units that pose an even greater threat.
Maybe I phrased it poorly, but the intention isn't to just charge up the middle, but get onto a center objective an hold it. Now there is of course an argument to be made that shield guard are better suited for that, but I thought having a unit that can be dangerous while sitting on an objective like the saggitarum is also worth considering.
We're still fairly durable until you slam into AdMech or the MW-spam-Chaos-Soup list (Magnus, Lord of Change, Ahriman, giant blob of horrors, Deamon Prince, other stuff, does about 15-40 MW a turn). Against AdMech, Sags are probably just gonna melt (but everything does except MAYBE sword+board, I haven't tried them on the Mars crew since their buff). Everything is gonna melt to those though so not much you can do about it.
I'm not sure how I would deal with 15-40 mw a turn unless I properly tech into sisters and/or a culexus. But I mean every faction has a bad match up.
As for admech, yeah I agree...dakkabots with full rerolls and wrath of mars is arguably the most lethal shooting potential in the game. But if I went up against admech and my opponent chose to melt my saggitarum, wouldn't he kinda do me a favor, because I my bikes and dreadnoughts pose a bigger threat?
The Chaos soup list is gaining prominence so the only concern is it may be a meta staple if you're doing tournaments. Makes hitting it more likely.
Last time I fought AdMech, they just blew everything off the board. Their gunline prowess is truly terrifying. Someone wrote this for a different army, but it applies to us too:
attempts a 9 inch charge
then dies along with big bird
from the return fire
while you clench your butthole trying to make 4000 3++s but they don't care and even bird is like hey, i'm dead
AdMech is less about what you bring and more about how you move on terrain and taking very passive, defensive secondaries.
A good friend recently picked up admech and really likes dakkabots, so I'll be facing that more recently I suppose. What secondaries would you recommend against them? Something like attrition, engage, and raise the banners?
No tournaments where I'm from in the forseeable future, so I'm not as concerned about the Chaos soup list...for now. Also let's say that list becomes a meta list and the chances are rather high that you run into it....how do you deal with that? One culexus probably won't be enough against such a psychic output and teching into a lot of sisters kinda weakens our ability to deal with other lists doesn't it?
So I've been trying to develop counters to the Chaos soup list for about 3 weeks now. It mostly boils down to: Bring a Culexus, snag 2-3 prosecutor squads (you have 6 elite slots in a battalion) for 180 points and shove them up mid-field. Aim and fire at Magnus whenever you get the opportunity. Ignore the LoC, he's almost impossible to kill. If you're fighting a variant with Morty, prioritize him over Magnus (he's squishier too, as crazy as that sounds).
For AdMech, the mission specific secondary is always a good thing to check. There are some you can double up on (like Dominate + the one that is for Sweep and Clear, I think). Engage is good if you're running speedy Custodes (Bikes, Venatarii). Banners is O.K. on 6 objective maps. Deploy Scramblers is always a safe secondary when you are unfavored in a match-up (deep strike one small unit to get the one off in the enemy deployment zone). AdMech has no deny the witch so if you can hang in the center bring an Inquisitor and do Psychic Ritual (but that's AdMech specific, normally you want a Culexus in that slot). They're going to use Serberys Dogs to try and pin you in your deployment zone so you can't score primary. Be up against your deployment line and use the heroic intervention strat (if going second) to try and break the wall early. Linebreaker can work if the terrain has no-vision slots in deployment zones. Get a HQ and one unti deep struck in that corner and just hang on for points.
Dakkabots are most terrifying with Wrath of Mars. With Cawl behind them, it's something like 4-5 MW per bot. So a squad of 5 is putting about 20MW plus normal damage on a target.
Thanks, that's great advice.
Edit: forgot to ask, what's the rest of the list gonna look like? The sisters are great at soaking up MWs, but they won't live that long on the front line I guess. So is the plan to buy 1-2 turns with the sisters and try to down morty in that time for example?
Storm cannon Telemon still reliably drop dakka bots at range, as do Aquilons with bolters and fists on the charge. So so stock terminators, come to think of it. Chaos, those guys scare me.
So if a DA succubus or murder archon can delete an entire squad of shield guard or saggitarum guard (kill about 3-4 in one fight phase on average), are we still appropriately pointed?
Note these are sub 100pt models taking out 156-212pts worth of custodes in a single phase on average.............
Either GW loosing their mind or they have plans for custodes later on.
I dont think dropping our points would be appropriate either though, as that makes certain factions and players hate on us even harder. Orks, tau, and non mortal spewing tyranids already have a really hard time against custodes as is.
Eihnlazer wrote: So if a DA succubus or murder archon can delete an entire squad of shield guard or saggitarum guard (kill about 3-4 in one fight phase on average), are we still appropriately pointed?
Note these are sub 100pt models taking out 156-212pts worth of custodes in a single phase on average.............
Either GW loosing their mind or they have plans for custodes later on.
I dont think dropping our points would be appropriate either though, as that makes certain factions and players hate on us even harder. Orks, tau, and non mortal spewing tyranids already have a really hard time against custodes as is.
Forget us, two kitted Succubi can one round KO Mortarion. For 120 points (combined).
We're basically paper against this force. We have to fight it at range and bring Hurricane Bolters.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Your kill Squad of Sag+Trajaan will get reliably deleted fairly quickly by several of the more common armies in 9th. Everything is too killy now. With Custodes, it's sit back, and camp objectives=win. Boring, but save for our dreads, charging up the middle like the charge of the Light Brigade ends just as tragically.
Well yes, but no. Sure many things are killy in 9th, but considering out stratagem support, it takes a lot to delete 5 saggitarum. And if the opponent is determined to do so and invests a lot of his resources and CP into doing so, I'm totally fine with it, because I have 5 other units that pose an even greater threat.
Maybe I phrased it poorly, but the intention isn't to just charge up the middle, but get onto a center objective an hold it. Now there is of course an argument to be made that shield guard are better suited for that, but I thought having a unit that can be dangerous while sitting on an objective like the saggitarum is also worth considering.
We're still fairly durable until you slam into AdMech or the MW-spam-Chaos-Soup list (Magnus, Lord of Change, Ahriman, giant blob of horrors, Deamon Prince, other stuff, does about 15-40 MW a turn). Against AdMech, Sags are probably just gonna melt (but everything does except MAYBE sword+board, I haven't tried them on the Mars crew since their buff). Everything is gonna melt to those though so not much you can do about it.
I'm not sure how I would deal with 15-40 mw a turn unless I properly tech into sisters and/or a culexus. But I mean every faction has a bad match up.
As for admech, yeah I agree...dakkabots with full rerolls and wrath of mars is arguably the most lethal shooting potential in the game. But if I went up against admech and my opponent chose to melt my saggitarum, wouldn't he kinda do me a favor, because I my bikes and dreadnoughts pose a bigger threat?
The Chaos soup list is gaining prominence so the only concern is it may be a meta staple if you're doing tournaments. Makes hitting it more likely.
Last time I fought AdMech, they just blew everything off the board. Their gunline prowess is truly terrifying. Someone wrote this for a different army, but it applies to us too:
attempts a 9 inch charge
then dies along with big bird
from the return fire
while you clench your butthole trying to make 4000 3++s but they don't care and even bird is like hey, i'm dead
AdMech is less about what you bring and more about how you move on terrain and taking very passive, defensive secondaries.
A good friend recently picked up admech and really likes dakkabots, so I'll be facing that more recently I suppose. What secondaries would you recommend against them? Something like attrition, engage, and raise the banners?
No tournaments where I'm from in the forseeable future, so I'm not as concerned about the Chaos soup list...for now. Also let's say that list becomes a meta list and the chances are rather high that you run into it....how do you deal with that? One culexus probably won't be enough against such a psychic output and teching into a lot of sisters kinda weakens our ability to deal with other lists doesn't it?
So I've been trying to develop counters to the Chaos soup list for about 3 weeks now. It mostly boils down to: Bring a Culexus, snag 2-3 prosecutor squads (you have 6 elite slots in a battalion) for 180 points and shove them up mid-field. Aim and fire at Magnus whenever you get the opportunity. Ignore the LoC, he's almost impossible to kill. If you're fighting a variant with Morty, prioritize him over Magnus (he's squishier too, as crazy as that sounds).
For AdMech, the mission specific secondary is always a good thing to check. There are some you can double up on (like Dominate + the one that is for Sweep and Clear, I think). Engage is good if you're running speedy Custodes (Bikes, Venatarii). Banners is O.K. on 6 objective maps. Deploy Scramblers is always a safe secondary when you are unfavored in a match-up (deep strike one small unit to get the one off in the enemy deployment zone). AdMech has no deny the witch so if you can hang in the center bring an Inquisitor and do Psychic Ritual (but that's AdMech specific, normally you want a Culexus in that slot). They're going to use Serberys Dogs to try and pin you in your deployment zone so you can't score primary. Be up against your deployment line and use the heroic intervention strat (if going second) to try and break the wall early. Linebreaker can work if the terrain has no-vision slots in deployment zones. Get a HQ and one unti deep struck in that corner and just hang on for points.
Dakkabots are most terrifying with Wrath of Mars. With Cawl behind them, it's something like 4-5 MW per bot. So a squad of 5 is putting about 20MW plus normal damage on a target.
Thanks, that's great advice.
Edit: forgot to ask, what's the rest of the list gonna look like? The sisters are great at soaking up MWs, but they won't live that long on the front line I guess. So is the plan to buy 1-2 turns with the sisters and try to down morty in that time for example?
Against that specific list you'll probably have some around turn 3 still. LoC and Magnus won't want to get in melee range do that just leaves Morty.
Downing Morty in the time they buy you is a high priority. The other is just stay safe and stay alive. The list and it's variants are really low on ObSec. Grab Dominate and just hang onto 50%+1 in objectives until you absolutely can't to block primary and compound scoring advantage. If you can make it to the bottom of T3 you have decent odds it can't recover.
So lots of Sword+Board and a little bit of either Venatari or Jetbikes.
You can't play us vs our worst match ups, and ask if we are properly point set. It's like saying Relic Shocc gun can theoretically 1 turn ko a Warhound, it should cost 500pts. But it's not how that works. Nor should it. We are likely to see some buffs, but we still can camp and win against more than 50% of the factions in game currently. We deserve to get our butts whooped for one or two months. I'm just glad something non-power armor is on top now.
Its not even like they are our worse match-up though. DE was actually trash against stodes before they got their codex and were basically handed everything they needed to curb stomp us.
If every new faction coming out is handed this kind of offence we literally have no chance in the upcoming meta.
Eihnlazer wrote: Its not even like they are our worse match-up though. DE was actually trash against stodes before they got their codex and were basically handed everything they needed to curb stomp us.
If every new faction coming out is handed this kind of offence we literally have no chance in the upcoming meta.
Why were DE trash against Custodes? I don't see anything, conceptually, that'd make them bad-heck, Poison is good against Custodes 'cause it negates their Toughness advantage!
I never had an issue with dark eldar since the start of 8th. They were basically a nerfed version of halequins that had some durable backfield campers.
No fusion boats, less killy characters, no 3++ bikes with loads of haywire (they had haywire, but rarely took it to tournies cause of durability issues).
Now they are even stronger than harlies in melee and cronos and talos are more durable giving them more midfield presence.
They could still do our two weaknesses: Hordes, loads of cheap attacks, and psyker stuff.
All of those are what kills us everytime.
Granted this new dex dails that up to 15, but still. They were never say...GSC level of bottom tier. I'd say with a skilled player you can still go far with them prior dex.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: They could still do our two weaknesses: Hordes, loads of cheap attacks, and psyker stuff.
All of those are what kills us everytime.
Granted this new dex dails that up to 15, but still. They were never say...GSC level of bottom tier. I'd say with a skilled player you can still go far with them prior dex.
I think you're partially thinking of Craftworld or Ynnari. Pure dark elder which I'll admit was very rare and almost never seen, doesn't have any psycher power.
chords are never a problem if you do what I always recommend and just run 10 hurricane bolter jetbikes.
That succubus is an obvious rules snafu that is going to get FAQed, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Not even GW could have actually intended that interaction.
yukishiro1 wrote: That succubus is an obvious rules snafu that is going to get FAQed, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Not even GW could have actually intended that interaction.
Can you cue me in on this? I'm just picked up some of the broader new dark eldar rules, I don't know what their characters can be exactly kitted out to do.
Can they now build a succubus that dishes out a lot of MWs? Or has a bazillion flat dmg3 attacks? The archon with djin blade can do that, right?
The one they talking about uses the whip, which gets 2 attacks for every attack the succubus makes. With +1 attack combat drug she gets 14 attacks. Then her special trait let's her attack again for every attack that doesn't inflict damage. Then because of bad wording she attacks with the whip again and doubles her attacks again.
So she either does 28 damage with her initial 14 attacks or all the way up to 56 damage if she fails with her first 14 attacks.
It is an obvious mistake, but its technically RAW till they FAQ it.
All this on a 60-75pt character
The other build uses a flat 3 damage weapon and a trait to turn the attack to mortals on a 6 to hit for potentially 21 mortals.
There's a cheese interaction with a weapon that lets you make multiple hit rolls per attack, and then a trait that lets you make 1 additional attack for every hit roll that didn't result in damage (i.e. didn't wound, was saved, FNPed, etc). So you end up getting a bajillion attacks as every one of the initial pile that doesn't result in damage creates 2 more. It'll be FAQed for sure so that the trait only lets you get one additional hit roll per failure.
Similarly there's another build that does MW equal to the damage characteristic of the weapon for every 6 to hit and then you combo it with a 3 damage weapon and hope to roll 2 6s to kill most characters, that one may stay and will be good at chewing through custodes.
Tiberias wrote: Thanks for explaining....thats nasty, but like you guys already said...no way they don't FAQ that.
I mean, I'd be in favor of a points bump rather than changing the interaction. I think it's fun to have that kind of stuff out there. Not everywhere, but let it be a DE schtick.
You can't change the points, it's a combination of a relic and a trait that enables it. I mean I guess they could start charging points instead of CP for relics, but they don't seem to have any interest in doing that.
yukishiro1 wrote: You can't change the points, it's a combination of a relic and a trait that enables it. I mean I guess they could start charging points instead of CP for relics, but they don't seem to have any interest in doing that.
I thought the 'get an attack for every failed attack's was a trait but the 'make 2 attacks for every 1' was a bog standard weapon (and can this be point adjusted)?
The relic weapon makes it 2 damage and poison 4+, the WL trait lets her reroll hits and wounds, and the mega succubus trait lets her try again on anything that fails to do damage.
dont quote me on that though, i dont own the codex.
Ok so details aside, stay clear of succubi and bring hurricane bolters when facing the new dark eldar, is that the basic consensus?
They can have a lot of fight last if they roll hot with incubi plus Ld debuffs like grim trophies. So generally try to avoid combat with them I guess? Popping their transports shouldn't be all too difficult I guess and a 5man squad of venatari should quite easily shoot a full size incubi squad off the table if necessary.
Tiberias wrote: Ok so details aside, stay clear of succubi and bring hurricane bolters when facing the new dark eldar, is that the basic consensus?
They can have a lot of fight last if they roll hot with incubi plus Ld debuffs like grim trophies. So generally try to avoid combat with them I guess? Popping their transports shouldn't be all too difficult I guess and a 5man squad of venatari should quite easily shoot a full size incubi squad off the table if necessary.
Right. Arachnus Telemons get props here because both firing modes will have use too.
i met my opponent late last year in the local GW store while queuing to buy stuff, got to chatting, and aggreed we would have to meet up and play sometime. well, today was that time, so we totally ignored lockdown rules and i came round his house for a pair of 500pts games.
the battlefeild, which stayed the same both games. all terrian provided by the oppo who was the host. the ruins are bits of polystyrene form a TV box, painted and with these neat posters printed off the web, aged and stuck on them. the barrels were some copper joint thing he got in a hardware store, painted lurid colours with some glue gun "toxic waste"
Spoiler:
my forces. shield cap with the Gatekeeper, 3 guard with spears, and 3 aquillions with bolters.
Spoiler:
oppos forces: Bjorn the fell handed (with melta), primaris lt with neo volkite thingy, and 10 assault intercessors. most of the hair and the wolf pelts were green stuffed on.
Spoiler:
both games were just straight deathmatches, and both won by me, much to my surprise. Oppo was used to playing against the starter set necrons he also owned (his GF also plays), and i dont think he really appicated how much tougher the Custodes were.
Oppo won 1st turn both games. game one, he kept the Assault intercessors in a single 10 man unit, and moved and advanced to close the gap. wasnt able to get a charge off but hugged the centre ruin (agreed as scaleable) my turn, im able to charge everything, aquillions and guard in the intercessors and the sheild cap into the LT (bjorn intervened with the shield cap). intercessors are eaten alive by the Aqullions with no return, and LT is cut down by my sheild cap, who only takes a single wound form Bjorn. turn 2, oppo discovers that Bjorn is not power-fist proof (they were able to consolidate into him).
game two, more or less the same, but Oppo went with 2 combat squads. he hang back slightly and was able to get the charge on his turn 2 after killing a Aquillon with a the melta. threw his intercessors into my guard squad and with a maximum effort of doctrines, auras, relics ands strats was able to kill the 3 guard, but the cap and the aquillons were still able to kill Bjorn and his LT, at which point he conceded.
overall? im impressed at how resilient we are. that 4++ saved by backside, repeatedly, and while he admits he wasnt really running a hot list, just threw a 500 point force together, my golden boys and myself preformed much better than i feared we might. I realised after i'd already packed up that Oppo and me both kept forgettig about Duty Enternal on bjorn, which meant he went down a awful lot faster than he should to the dmg 2 Aquillions (i guess he wasnt used to dmg 2 enemies, or just using dreads, it was only like his 2nd game with Bjorn after finishing him). hopefully next time i meet him i we can take it up to 1k and start really having some fun.
by his own admission he was playing a list he threw together at the last minute at 500 points, and really just wanted to play bjorn, so it wasnt a very optimal list. However, if we'd remebered the dreads damage reduction, and/or i'd not taken the aquillons but more guards, then i think i;d have had a lot more problems, so it was really luck on my part. Plus, we were playing straight deathmatch not a proper objective game, so that might have affected things as well.
but yhea, it seems hard to bring enough firepower to bear to hurt us at 500pts.
I mean if it was a WAC wulfen list we wouldn't be able to do much, but yeah. Even as hasty Custodes army at 500 points we are fielding basically an army of HQ level units. With shooting that is basically relic bolters. I don't see how GW was thinking this would be even slightly balanced. It's spent so much time balancing the game around 2k.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I mean if it was a WAC wulfen list we wouldn't be able to do much, but yeah. Even as hasty Custodes army at 500 points we are fielding basically an army of HQ level units. With shooting that is basically relic bolters. I don't see how GW was thinking this would be even slightly balanced. It's spent so much time balancing the game around 2k.
honestly? back in the early noughties when i played 3rd ed, 500 pts or even 1k games were just Not A Thing (outside of Saturday morning "bring what you got and play it" type multiplayer games the GW stores ran, to keep the kids playing and buying). If you wanted to play a "proper" set piece battle, it was 1,500pts or bust. things have creeped up to 2K over my 10 year hiatus but still, the default was and always was that the game was balanced at the 1-2k points level. The designers have to make assumptions about how the game is played, and balance off that, and part of that is that the game is less well balanced at wildly different point levels to that "expected" range. things are either too tanky or too killy, with tough units being almost unkillable becuase no one has enough firepower to kill them (with low point games) or super easy to kill because theirs so much firepower available to counter them with (at high point games). I imagine if i tried playing a 4k game i'd find my guys would melt way to quickly in the face of the sheer number of dice that were being thrown at them.
Got a game in vs Drukhari yesteday at 2k points.....
Having an enemy with every squad being flimsy, but every squad having teeth is a pain in the butt. The whole army having advance and charge turn 2 makes it just bonkers fast, and the succubus could DOUBLE in points, and still be 'Must take' good.
That, and the new dark lance profile is just devastating. Every failed wound is a dead terminator. Dead bike. Dead Custode. And its pretty easy for them to have as many dark lances as you have models.
Meh.
I got into this hobby in LATE 7th, and I was flat out TOLD by the GW rep that games START at 2k and go up, but you could still play the "Bring what you got" lists and it would be ok. But if I wanted to get into anything like the actual game, it didn't start until 2k. I'm not saying this as a fact, but as an observation by a relatively, new player who was told by a rep that was how the game was setup to be played. Obviously he was wrong, but still, my point is that GW has pushed this as the norm for a while, it being "Tournament Standard" and all. I appreciate the points about it being different for different folks, but my main issue is Custodes and lack of balance. If GW is insisting on 500 games and 1k games being a thing, then don't look to our next codex for buffs. No way we stay at our current strength if GW wants these 30 minute games to be a viable thing, Ala if you bring 500 points of GSC you actually stand a chance against my 500 points of Custodes.
iGuy91 wrote: Got a game in vs Drukhari yesteday at 2k points.....
Having an enemy with every squad being flimsy, but every squad having teeth is a pain in the butt. The whole army having advance and charge turn 2 makes it just bonkers fast, and the succubus could DOUBLE in points, and still be 'Must take' good.
That, and the new dark lance profile is just devastating. Every failed wound is a dead terminator. Dead bike. Dead Custode. And its pretty easy for them to have as many dark lances as you have models.
Meh.
yeah, Drukari games are entirely a different thing now. Before the new codex it was "can we chew through all these bodies and score enough", to "Can we survive 3 turns and still have more than one unit of shield guard on the table"?
Dark angels, Death guard, Chaos demons, and Drukari all match up favorably against Custodes now. Combined with our slightly bad matchup with knights and some nid lists we are in a rough spot in the meta atm.
Im gonna do my hardest at the upcoming Dallas Open with pure custodes but i dont expect better than a 3/5 record tbh.
How are we in a "tough spot"? We are currently in the top of the meta. Not the best, but we aren't GSC. We are capable of objective camping, we can destroy character heavy lists, and our TAC lists are some of the top lists in the game. I honestly don't understand how we are in a bad place. Yes, the factions with a 9th ed. codex are capable of downing us, but that is most of the factions in the game. 9th codexes are slightly OP compared to 8th ones.
Eihnlazer wrote:yeah, Drukari games are entirely a different thing now. Before the new codex it was "can we chew through all these bodies and score enough", to "Can we survive 3 turns and still have more than one unit of shield guard on the table"?
Dark angels, Death guard, Chaos demons, and Drukari all match up favorably against Custodes now. Combined with our slightly bad matchup with knights and some nid lists we are in a rough spot in the meta atm.
Im gonna do my hardest at the upcoming Dallas Open with pure custodes but i dont expect better than a 3/5 record tbh.
If i get good matchups i might be ok.
Let us know how things turned out for you, I'm curious how pure custodes manage to hold their own
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:How are we in a "tough spot"? We are currently in the top of the meta. Not the best, but we aren't GSC. We are capable of objective camping, we can destroy character heavy lists, and our TAC lists are some of the top lists in the game. I honestly don't understand how we are in a bad place. Yes, the factions with a 9th ed. codex are capable of downing us, but that is most of the factions in the game. 9th codexes are slightly OP compared to 8th ones.
That's not entirely what he meant, I think. We are not bad right now. Our shield guard is good, as is basically any FW dreadnought. But the factions he mentioned play very well into us. The new drukhari are lightning fast and hit extremely hard, even against us. Really any of their units can be a threat. Death guard has some of the best fight last ability in the game right now and their -1 dmg hurts us a lot (think venatari and aquilon). Demons apparently can dish out more mortal wounds than we can ever hope to deal with.
Bear in mind that if you don't do tournaments, this probably differs in your local meta, depending on how competitive your gaming partners are. But the point is not that we are bad, but rather that many of the top factions apparently play well into our faction, since let's be honest, we are not that elite anymore.
Yeah, anyone with a 9th Ed Codex is going to eat our lunch, and thats expected. We are currently one of the very few factions that can survive in 9th, with our 8th rules. Us, Harlies, Eldar, and Sisters.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Yeah, anyone with a 9th Ed Codex is going to eat our lunch, and thats expected. We are currently one of the very few factions that can survive in 9th, with our 8th rules. Us, Harlies, Eldar, and Sisters.
Slight correction, the Daemons don't have 9th Codices either. Indeed, I expect their shenanigans to be brought into line once they have one.
Daemons seem to be an outlier, I don't think they would be top 5 if we weren't in the middle of a pandemic where people are basically trotting out crazy lists and they are winning majors. I chalk that one up to Covid.
Sisters, Custodes, Jokers, those are legit 8th edition contenders for 9th meta. Just my somewhat worthless opinion.
Sisters give me fits to play against. Ok, that squad of girls in spandex with big swords just charged my entire squad of terminators, this should be fun.....Wait, I have to roll HOW MANY saves? Strength 8? Each one is HOW MUCH damage? (Starts just removing models from table)
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Daemons seem to be an outlier, I don't think they would be top 5 if we weren't in the middle of a pandemic where people are basically trotting out crazy lists and they are winning majors. I chalk that one up to Covid.
Sisters, Custodes, Jokers, those are legit 8th edition contenders for 9th meta. Just my somewhat worthless opinion.
Sisters give me fits to play against. Ok, that squad of girls in spandex with big swords just charged my entire squad of terminators, this should be fun.....Wait, I have to roll HOW MANY saves? Strength 8? Each one is HOW MUCH damage? (Starts just removing models from table)
Repentia are really, really good, but if you manage to save 4cp for transhuman and emperors auspice, you can neuter them quite decently (emperors auspice being the really, really important one here). Without rerolls they lose a lot of punch. And never forget the ever powerful tangle foot grenade.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Daemons seem to be an outlier, I don't think they would be top 5 if we weren't in the middle of a pandemic where people are basically trotting out crazy lists and they are winning majors. I chalk that one up to Covid.
Sisters, Custodes, Jokers, those are legit 8th edition contenders for 9th meta. Just my somewhat worthless opinion.
Sisters give me fits to play against. Ok, that squad of girls in spandex with big swords just charged my entire squad of terminators, this should be fun.....Wait, I have to roll HOW MANY saves? Strength 8? Each one is HOW MUCH damage? (Starts just removing models from table)
Repentia are really, really good, but if you manage to save 4cp for transhuman and emperors auspice, you can neuter them quite decently (emperors auspice being the really, really important one here). Without rerolls they lose a lot of punch. And never forget the ever powerful tangle foot grenade.
I agree and this matches my experience. I've fought them twice in tournament settings and played them once for an opponent as tournament practice. Every time the Repentia just bounced off their opponent and died.
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Daemons seem to be an outlier, I don't think they would be top 5 if we weren't in the middle of a pandemic where people are basically trotting out crazy lists and they are winning majors. I chalk that one up to Covid.
Sisters, Custodes, Jokers, those are legit 8th edition contenders for 9th meta. Just my somewhat worthless opinion.
Sisters give me fits to play against. Ok, that squad of girls in spandex with big swords just charged my entire squad of terminators, this should be fun.....Wait, I have to roll HOW MANY saves? Strength 8? Each one is HOW MUCH damage? (Starts just removing models from table)
While it's a fair theory for many things I'd point out that the Daemon list was made by TJ Lannigan who was the top ranked Chaos player for 2020. He generally knows his stuff.
Eihnlazer wrote: So if a DA succubus or murder archon can delete an entire squad of shield guard or saggitarum guard (kill about 3-4 in one fight phase on average), are we still appropriately pointed?
Note these are sub 100pt models taking out 156-212pts worth of custodes in a single phase on average.............
Either GW loosing their mind or they have plans for custodes later on.
I dont think dropping our points would be appropriate either though, as that makes certain factions and players hate on us even harder. Orks, tau, and non mortal spewing tyranids already have a really hard time against custodes as is.
The answer is no, custodes are not appropriately pointed any more. Deldar have a lot of anti custodes tools in their arsenal, from what posion does to a non dread or mech list, to an extremely powerful mortal wound trick.
But, they are still elves, and bikes be good against that.
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: How are we in a "tough spot"? We are currently in the top of the meta. Not the best, but we aren't GSC. We are capable of objective camping, we can destroy character heavy lists, and our TAC lists are some of the top lists in the game. I honestly don't understand how we are in a bad place. Yes, the factions with a 9th ed. codex are capable of downing us, but that is most of the factions in the game. 9th codexes are slightly OP compared to 8th ones.
Each new army that comes out is strong compared to custodes. And strong against custodes.
But that's just your bog standard new edition power creep working out.
Like, gw isn't even really trying to hide it, each new book represents a dramatic jump in power compared to their old one, and compared to the meta as a whole usually. Just have to hope when our turn comes around we aren't unlucky and get one of the few duds that will inevitably show up through the edition.
Honestly, I am worried we might get a relegated to a WD or Campaign book update. Why would GW spend the time creating a codex for less than 10 models (Counting GW plastic)? I know they've said they plan on rolling FW into their codexes but they haven't for anyone else yet unless there are FW units in the DG and DE books. I just don't see us existing in the future without becoming stupidly broken. In order to avoid getting gutted by DE archons and witches, we need to be 5-6 wounds PER model, For terminators 6-7. For bikes that mean 9-10. Characters? 8-9? What do our dreadnaughts become? Mini knights at 15-20 wounds? How do you even point that? No, I don't see this edition allowing the ability of having armies with less than 10 units and actually winning. Once Chaos books start dropping and Daemons get brought into 9th, we are toast. Anyone wanna guess what Bloodletter and horrors are going to do to us in 9th?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Honestly, I am worried we might get a relegated to a WD or Campaign book update. Why would GW spend the time creating a codex for less than 10 models (Counting GW plastic)? I know they've said they plan on rolling FW into their codexes but they haven't for anyone else yet unless there are FW units in the DG and DE books. I just don't see us existing in the future without becoming stupidly broken. In order to avoid getting gutted by DE archons and witches, we need to be 5-6 wounds PER model, For terminators 6-7. For bikes that mean 9-10. Characters? 8-9? What do our dreadnaughts become? Mini knights at 15-20 wounds? How do you even point that? No, I don't see this edition allowing the ability of having armies with less than 10 units and actually winning. Once Chaos books start dropping and Daemons get brought into 9th, we are toast. Anyone wanna guess what Bloodletter and horrors are going to do to us in 9th?
Very simple answer: custodes are very popular and sell very well. We won't be in a white dwarf. Worst case will be another adeptus custodes codex, best case: talons of the emperor codex.
And you are also exaggerating again. We don't need a bazillion wounds. Custodian guard going to 4 wounds would be a big boost and I can see that happen.
GW is obviously willing to try new things to boost survivability. If our shield guard get an inate ability that you can't reroll hit rolls against that squad in melee, that alone would be a big boost.
I remain hopeful for our 9th Ed codex if the quality of recent releases continues. Dark eldar is a genuinely well made codex, hopefully ours will be similar: strong but not broken.
I think in order to stay competitive with the new releases we just need our strats recosted.
all the 2+ CP strats need to be reduced to 1CP+1 for more than 5 models.
We need -2 to charge back on our tanks (which should be coming with a strat). The tanks themselves need to go up 1-2 wounds each and have their save increased to 2+ with no point change.
The Ares and Orion both need to drop about 50pts and have their explosion damage be increased to D6 or D3+2.
+1 wound on all our infantry and bikes would be big, but this would also mean that our bike captain and terminator captains would go to 10 wounds with the CC trait.
We could also use Tribunes for reroll 1's to wound.
Vexilla are also overcosted, which they fixed and then unfixed for some reason.
I agree, fixing some points and adjusting strat cost is huge for us.
As I said I can see our infantry and bikes getting one more wound and maybe one additional attack. The captain commander trait that gives +2wounds needs to be changed in that case. My suggestion is to change it to - 1dmg on all attacks against the captain, which might be too good now on a current auric aquilas bike captain, but consider that we are likely going to lose 3+ invulns....(unless we remain the only faction in the game who keeps them)
Eihnlazer wrote: I think in order to stay competitive with the new releases we just need our strats recosted.
all the 2+ CP strats need to be reduced to 1CP+1 for more than 5 models.
We need -2 to charge back on our tanks (which should be coming with a strat). The tanks themselves need to go up 1-2 wounds each and have their save increased to 2+ with no point change.
The Ares and Orion both need to drop about 50pts and have their explosion damage be increased to D6 or D3+2.
+1 wound on all our infantry and bikes would be big, but this would also mean that our bike captain and terminator captains would go to 10 wounds with the CC trait.
We could also use Tribunes for reroll 1's to wound.
Vexilla are also overcosted, which they fixed and then unfixed for some reason.
Any changes to our forgeworld models are done, they aren't going to be looked at again except for edge case faqs and point costs.
And, good. I don't want to play the forgeworld army.
Tiberias wrote: I agree, fixing some points and adjusting strat cost is huge for us.
As I said I can see our infantry and bikes getting one more wound and maybe one additional attack. The captain commander trait that gives +2wounds needs to be changed in that case. My suggestion is to change it to - 1dmg on all attacks against the captain, which might be too good now on a current auric aquilas bike captain, but consider that we are likely going to lose 3+ invulns....(unless we remain the only faction in the game who keeps them)
I have a feeling that relic 3 pluses will stick around, and I would not be shocked if our shield guard gets to keep it as a way to make the army unique. It fits with the concept of the army and gives survivability that isn't perma transhuman or minus 1 to damage.
But if they don't, then they should stop being cowards and just give us a 4 plus invul overall and make our trait something else.
If we could just get always on Bolter discipline, that would be nice.
So I just recently re-encouraged my friend to dust off his 1kSons army and start playing me (We both got our second shot last week!) And I have two questions:
1. In order to make him feel less gimped, I have given the wound bump to his Rubrics, and his Scarabs now get 3. To bring them more in line with other factions. Does anyone consider this broken?
2. Would it be an unfriendly jerk move to field an all terminator list since I pretty much know he's going with an Sorcerer/DP list with loads of Rubs and Scarabs?
Thairne wrote: If you give them an points bumb to compensate - no, definately not. Marines paid 4 pts for that extra wounds, that should be a good base to start.
Custodes Terminators are not tougher than Custodes Guard unless you use strats and/or shields. So an all Term list would be fine in my book.
The issue is that custodes are not worth their points right now comparing them to similar units. Like, for 25 points less, deathshroud terminators are strictly superior to Allarus. They have remarkably similar stats and both have good strat support. But deathshroud are just flat much cheaper with a better army rule.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: If we could just get always on Bolter discipline, that would be nice.
So I just recently re-encouraged my friend to dust off his 1kSons army and start playing me (We both got our second shot last week!) And I have two questions:
1. In order to make him feel less gimped, I have given the wound bump to his Rubrics, and his Scarabs now get 3. To bring them more in line with other factions. Does anyone consider this broken?
2. Would it be an unfriendly jerk move to field an all terminator list since I pretty much know he's going with an Sorcerer/DP list with loads of Rubs and Scarabs?
Even without the wounds bump you're the -unfavored- matchup here. So I'd say nothing you do is unfair.
Really? I mean I get we have "weak" psyker defense, but still, his units are not that good, and he has zero really good defenses against two large squads of terminators showing up turn 2, and slaughtering his sorcerers, and maybe a DP or two. Can you give me some pointers on what to look out for against 1k Sons?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Really? I mean I get we have "weak" psyker defense, but still, his units are not that good, and he has zero really good defenses against two large squads of terminators showing up turn 2, and slaughtering his sorcerers, and maybe a DP or two. Can you give me some pointers on what to look out for against 1k Sons?
Just mass MW spam. Maybe your guy doesn't have a good collection, but he should be able to screen out T2 deep strike charges and retaliate with anywhere from 15-30MW per turn at about 24" range. Infernal Gateway, Doombolt, Smite, Bolt of Change, e.t.c.
An optimized list would have Magnus and maybe a patrol detachment of Word Bearers. Watch out for Volkite Contemptor Dreads with prescience. They'll fish for MW as well and hit you with a fair amount.
He is going to be fielding mostly Rubrics, Scarabs, and two DPs and a few Ex Sorcs + Arhiman. So Lotsa MW spam. My hope is to hold Objectives while ambushing his characters with Slayer of Tyrants. I mean at worst 20-30 shots of S4 bolter fire with d2 damage should do most of my work for me.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: He is going to be fielding mostly Rubrics, Scarabs, and two DPs and a few Ex Sorcs + Arhiman. So Lotsa MW spam. My hope is to hold Objectives while ambushing his characters with Slayer of Tyrants. I mean at worst 20-30 shots of S4 bolter fire with d2 damage should do most of my work for me.
It'll work on Ahriman and Sorc's. You'll need to get lucky to take out a DP (or use Superior Fire Patterns and be in Rapid Fire range, in which case it swings back to one-rounding the DP I think).
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Can I ask which specific 1kSons spells I need to look out for and block when I see them come up?
1kSons or CSM in general? Makes a big difference.
Block Infernal Gateway if he rolls an 11+. It's basically a 3" AoE 1D6 MW Smile at that point.
Doombolt is another one to stop but conditional. It halves your movement and effects charging so only bother if it's on a unit that needs to go somewhere or charge.
Warp Reality let's them pick a terrain piece and then a unit within 3" of that terrain piece and halve movement and -1 to advance and charge (cult of mutation). Another one to block if somebody has to go somewhere.
Warptime is a big one, obviously.
.after that it's just deny based on importance/board position/objectives, e.t.c.
Re: the discussion on the prior page, the big issue IMO is how pathetic custodes damage is in a world of 9th edition stat inflation. Defense is fine, but everything in the army hits like wet noodles for their points except the FW dreads. It means the only option the army has is to build for durability and try to win on the mission while playing defensively, which really limits how you can play the game. The reason people are souping so much competitively is because the book itself just doesn't have the tools to actually kill anything.
yukishiro1 wrote: Re: the discussion on the prior page, the big issue IMO is how pathetic custodes damage is in a world of 9th edition stat inflation. Defense is fine, but everything in the army hits like wet noodles for their points except the FW dreads. It means the only option the army has is to build for durability and try to win on the mission while playing defensively, which really limits how you can play the game. The reason people are souping so much competitively is because the book itself just doesn't have the tools to actually kill anything.
I think we are going to get fixed dmg weapons in our codex update. Right now it feels lackluster, but as you said...at least our dreadnoughts are amazing. I mean the telemon is imo the best dreadnought in the game. And the achillus and galatus see more and more play. John Lennon is piloting a very successful custodes/imperium soup lists right now with 2 telemons and 3 galatus dreadnoughts.
I am also putting my vote in here that Trajanns watchers axe should be flat 4 dmg
yukishiro1 wrote: Re: the discussion on the prior page, the big issue IMO is how pathetic custodes damage is in a world of 9th edition stat inflation. Defense is fine, but everything in the army hits like wet noodles for their points except the FW dreads. It means the only option the army has is to build for durability and try to win on the mission while playing defensively, which really limits how you can play the game. The reason people are souping so much competitively is because the book itself just doesn't have the tools to actually kill anything.
Your defense feels fine till you hit the Magnus + Lord of Change list. Then it's basically useless since 100% of the list's damage output is MW.
However, they still haven't gotten the +1 wound update, so unless you are giving them the buff out of courtesy, they are still as Drak calls them "Paper people" and fall very easily to our weapons.
yukishiro1 wrote: Re: the discussion on the prior page, the big issue IMO is how pathetic custodes damage is in a world of 9th edition stat inflation. Defense is fine, but everything in the army hits like wet noodles for their points except the FW dreads. It means the only option the army has is to build for durability and try to win on the mission while playing defensively, which really limits how you can play the game. The reason people are souping so much competitively is because the book itself just doesn't have the tools to actually kill anything.
Your defense feels fine till you hit the Magnus + Lord of Change list. Then it's basically useless since 100% of the list's damage output is MW.
It's almost as if Custodes should have some cheap action monkey sidekicks who hard counter psychic armies...
yukishiro1 wrote: Re: the discussion on the prior page, the big issue IMO is how pathetic custodes damage is in a world of 9th edition stat inflation. Defense is fine, but everything in the army hits like wet noodles for their points except the FW dreads. It means the only option the army has is to build for durability and try to win on the mission while playing defensively, which really limits how you can play the game. The reason people are souping so much competitively is because the book itself just doesn't have the tools to actually kill anything.
I think we are going to get fixed dmg weapons in our codex update. Right now it feels lackluster, but as you said...at least our dreadnoughts are amazing. I mean the telemon is imo the best dreadnought in the game. And the achillus and galatus see more and more play. John Lennon is piloting a very successful custodes/imperium soup lists right now with 2 telemons and 3 galatus dreadnoughts.
I am also putting my vote in here that Trajanns watchers axe should be flat 4 dmg
IMO the issue is not even so much fixed damage as volume of attacks. Custodes Guard are 52 points a model with shields and have 3 attacks, fewer than a 19 point assault intercessor. Yes, they're better quality attacks, but just burying custodes in bodies is too viable a strategy right now given their inability to actually cut through hordes efficiently. Custodes need +1 attack across the board, and the spears and axes should probably have dual profiles with a sweep option the way deathshrouds do.
yukishiro1 wrote: Re: the discussion on the prior page, the big issue IMO is how pathetic custodes damage is in a world of 9th edition stat inflation. Defense is fine, but everything in the army hits like wet noodles for their points except the FW dreads. It means the only option the army has is to build for durability and try to win on the mission while playing defensively, which really limits how you can play the game. The reason people are souping so much competitively is because the book itself just doesn't have the tools to actually kill anything.
Your defense feels fine till you hit the Magnus + Lord of Change list. Then it's basically useless since 100% of the list's damage output is MW.
It's almost as if Custodes should have some cheap action monkey sidekicks who hard counter psychic armies...
Except we don't? Most of these are casting from greater than 18" out because of the TKSons +6" range bonus and don't have to target the closest unit. This ain't Smite spam.
If you throw the SoS as a full frontline your 'real army's is also now way too far back. Here, let me post an example list of these things:
Lord of Change, -1CP
. Bolt of Change
. Boon of Change,
. Infernal Gateway
. Smite
. Staff of Tzeentch
. The Impossible Robe
. Baleful sword
Exalted Lord of Change – Roll 2
Troops
Nurglings
. 4x Nurgling Swarms: 4x Diseased claws and teeth
Nurglings
. 4x Nurgling Swarms: 4x Diseased claws and teeth
Nurglings,
. 3x Nurgling Swarms: 3x Diseased claws and teeth
Nurglings
. 3x Nurgling Swarms: 3x Diseased claws and teeth
Nurglings
. 3x Nurgling Swarms: 3x Diseased claws and teeth
Nurglings
. 3x Nurgling Swarms: 3x Diseased claws and teeth
Fast Attack
Furies 45pts: Mark of Nurgle
. 5x Fury: 5x Daemonic claws
Furies 45pts: Mark of Nurgle
. 5x Fury: 5x Daemonic claws
Supreme Command Detachment Chaos – Death Guard
Mortarion
. Miasma of Pestilence
. Gift of Contagion
. Gift of Plagues
. Smite
. Warlord
Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment Chaos – Thousand Sons
Magnus the Red
. Temporal Manipulation
. Warptime,
. Weaver of Fates
. Smite
Range issue aside, SoS don't last long in the front on this anyway. If they aren't in the front the aura has no chance to help.
SoS arent bad except that they take up an elite slot, which we already have a shortage of in anything but a battalion.
If your running a battalion, sure toss some in, but they do not survive more than 1 turn to do what you took them for (unless your taking 2 prosecutor squads to hold objectives).
Yes, if you know your fighting a psycher heavy army, you can take Aquillon shield to bodyguard a squad of them, but then they still arent up front where they need to be, and the shield host is crap on all other fronts.
Mortal wounds are simply too prevelent nowadays to cost Custodes appropriately against armies that dont dish out mortal wounds. This is a problem competitively, because to balance custodes against other armies we are too weak at tournaments, and to balance us for tournaments, we are too strong for casual play.
I honestly dont know how to fix it.
I play Custodes at tournaments though, so I obviously want to be on the stronger end.
100% agree on SoS being in a terrible slot. They need to do what they've done with other codexes and let you take 1 SoS squad without taking up a slot for each Custodes squad you take (maybe each Troops or Elites choice, if you want to limit it further).
But they are super effective against the Morty and Magnus list. That list someone posted literally has zero shooting (ok, Morty has a single shot weapon), and a single - yes, one - MW psychic power that's targeted (only 18" range, too). It very much *is* smite spam, and SoS hard counter smite spam.
yukishiro1 wrote: 100% agree on SoS being in a terrible slot. They need to do what they've done with other codexes and let you take 1 SoS squad without taking up a slot for each Custodes squad you take (maybe each Troops or Elites choice, if you want to limit it further).
But they are super effective against the Morty and Magnus list. That list someone posted literally has zero shooting (ok, Morty has a single shot weapon), and a single - yes, one - MW psychic power that's targeted (only 18" range, too). It very much *is* smite spam, and SoS hard counter smite spam.
In that particular list your front line SoS are smashed by a Warp Timed Morty (24" Fly + Charge). Remember, Magnus's warptime is 9" range so you're never stopping it with strat or Deny. If you're too far back for Morty, then whatever IS in front gets blown up with spells from safely outside your aura.
Some variants of that list trade the Keeper for double Volkite Contemptors, which will ALSO wreck your SoS day.
If someone is having to use Morty to kill 60 points of SoS, you should be very happy to take that trade.
You said that list doesn't use smite spam and instead uses targeted MW powers, and you posted a list as an example...that didn't have any shooting and had a single targeted MW power. You can obviously come up with other lists that are less hard countered by SoS (though again, shooting doesn't happen until after the psychic phase and you're still happy having someone wasting volkite contemptors on SoS), but that doesn't mean the list you posted wasn't a perfect example of how effective SoS are, not how ineffective they are.
That list would also be illegal with contemptors, BTW, as it'd have four detachments. You can't take Morty, Magnus, a Daemon detachment, AND a DG (or CSM) detachment.
I'm not going to lie, The Sword maidens need to be 5pts cheaper, the gun gals need to be 5pts more, and they need to have an invuln available to them maybe a strat? I would love to use the Prosecutors more but their cost is just too high. I love watching people frown as I count how many auto hits I have racked up from a ten person squad holding an objective. "Annnd that'll be 36 hits....."
yukishiro1 wrote: 100% agree on SoS being in a terrible slot. They need to do what they've done with other codexes and let you take 1 SoS squad without taking up a slot for each Custodes squad you take (maybe each Troops or Elites choice, if you want to limit it further).
I imagine they are shying away form that because they dont want to give us cheap objective camping squads, because being short on bodies and having to "waste" high quality troops on holding objectives is part of the custodes playstyle, as payback for having termie statlines on line infantry. It's very much in line with the decision to move space marine Scouts form Troops to Elite, as a counter to previous usage of them to pay "troops tax" on Force Org charts.
They can't really make them Troops for us because that would grant the "elite ++" army a 60 point obsec point camper, when the Space marines have to pay 90pts for a 5 man tac squad to do more or less the same thing.
In other words, they want to deincentivise you form using them to hold backfield objectives, and to make you use them in a more lore appropriate role. one way to do that is to make you "pay" for the privilege, limiting your ability to skimp on line troops and then splurge on elites, by blocking out elite slots with these cheap objective campers.
yukishiro1 wrote: If someone is having to use Morty to kill 60 points of SoS, you should be very happy to take that trade.
You said that list doesn't use smite spam and instead uses targeted MW powers, and you posted a list as an example...that didn't have any shooting and had a single targeted MW power. You can obviously come up with other lists that are less hard countered by SoS (though again, shooting doesn't happen until after the psychic phase and you're still happy having someone wasting volkite contemptors on SoS), but that doesn't mean the list you posted wasn't a perfect example of how effective SoS are, not how ineffective they are.
That list would also be illegal with contemptors, BTW, as it'd have four detachments. You can't take Morty, Magnus, a Daemon detachment, AND a DG (or CSM) detachment.
You drop one of the three smash bros for Contemptors.
60 points of SoS is just -1. Your opponent will laugh and ignore if that's what you brought. Both the Bird and Magnus are +2 to cast and have enough Move and range to target whatever they need from outside such a small aura field. You're needing 3 squads minimum before they even care. Even then, with range and positioning they can probably still manage to only be in range of 1 or 2 units on T1.
If you turtle up so hard 3 squads cover everything with perfect overlapping fields I think they'd just thank you as you're a total non-factor on primary points at that time. You MUST come out and you're going to need more units to screen them out.
It doesn't matter if they die in shooting or assault T1. You're still boned the remaining 4 rounds.
It has more than 1 psyker power that is not Smite. Bolt of Change is one as is Infernal Gateway (indeed, Infernal is an AoE that hits everything within 3" of the unit you targeted) AND they have a Stratagem to swap a psychic power for another psychic power (meaning in our matchup you're almost certainly getting hit by Doombolt too).
I'm not sure you're really getting the intricacies of these kind of lists.
First you said it's not a smite spam list but instead a targeted MW list, and then posted a smite spam list with only a single targeted MW power (yes, Magnus could swap in one more, but if it's Doombolt in particular, you're pretty happy for him to do that as you'd usually much rather have him be attempting an only 50% cast MW power and have to forgo either warptime, smite or weaver).
Then you said you could swap out a KoS for contemptors, which would be an illegal list.
As politely as possible...judging by what you've written, I don't think I'm the one who is missing the intricacies of the list.
But I don't want to get into personal sniping. If you think SoS are junk, it's no skin off my back.
yukishiro1 wrote: First you said it's not a smite spam list but instead a targeted MW list, and then posted a smite spam list with only a single targeted MW power (yes, Magnus could swap in one more, but if it's Doombolt in particular, you're pretty happy for him to do that as you'd usually much rather have him be attempting an only 50% cast MW power and have to forgo either warptime, smite or weaver).
Then you said you could swap out a KoS for contemptors, which would be an illegal list.
As politely as possible...judging by what you've written, I don't think I'm the one who is missing the intricacies of the list.
But I don't want to get into personal sniping. If you think SoS are junk, it's no skin off my back.
I don't think they're junk. I said they don't solve this problem.
It had more than one though? Even without the strat? I said it's not Smite spam and it's not. I corrected you on that in the previous post.
The KoS was my error in saying. People DO swap the KoS but it's usually for Beasts of Nurgle. Morty gets turned into a 'normal' DG detachment with other alterations to bring the Contemptor (that's TJ Lanigan's version up there, most others don't bring so many Nurglings either).
You haven't really addressed any of the reasons why SoS don't work to help here do I imagine you're as or will be as stumped as the rest of us when trying to move beyond that.
SoS counter anything that isn't targeted MWs. Infernal Gateway is not targeted MWs, it targets the closest model, just like smite. It splashes 3" from the model - not the unit, you were wrong on the "intricacies" there again BTW - but you'd have to be pretty silly to let it splash onto something you don't want it to. It's also only 12" range when cast by the LoC, so by definition if they're casting it on your SoS, you're within the bubble to deny it on a 3+ and debuff the casting, so again, you're pretty happy with that.
SoS are area denial against a psychic MW list, and they're very useful for that. It allows you to channel where your opponent's big models can go and still be able to smite.
The object isn't to stop them from smiting anything, it's to force them to make the choice between being where they would otherwise want to be and having their smites and potentially other powers soaked or strat denied by the SoS. The - to cast isn't the important part of the unit (though if they actually ignore the unit and take the penalty over and over it's actually a lot more effective than you give it credit for at -1), the important parts are the smite soak and the 3+ deny strat w/in 18".
The dumbest possible thing you could do with SoS against a Magnus and Morty list is just deploy them up in a line in front (well, besides clustering them to try to get a -2 or more, that'd be even dumber I guess). That list isn't going to be casting MWs at you much on T1 anyway, certainly not if they're going first. What you want to do is figure out where your opponent is going to want to send his big models, and put the SoS in a place (our of LOS if they have shooting, though that list doesn't so it doesn't even matter) where they can come out and block smites and threaten with the 3+ deny AFTER your opponent's models move. The thing about that list is that their big models really can't afford to position to avoid your SoS because they need to be where they need to be to do their stuff, so you're giving them a bad choice between just sucking up the soaking and the 3+ deny or making a big mistake by moving somewhere ineffective to avoid it.
Looking at the recent weapons stat boosts for Dark Eldar and Admech, I really have no doubt that Custodes will get the same treatment. I fully suspect our spears and axes will have their ranged attacks upped to Rapid Fire 2 and possibly better AP.
Swords, axes, and spears will all likely get the appropriate strength boost in close combat.
Is this enough to put us on even footing? Well, maybe?
Custodes need an additional attack across the board more than they need more S on the close combat weapons IMO, and the spears and axes badly need a sweep profile to allow for clearing trash.
Bolter discipline would also be a bit of a no-brainer; it really makes little sense that space marines get so many more attacks and so many more shots than custodes, which are supposed to be marines on steroids. And the 6+ ignore MWs in the psychic phase feels a bit meh at this point, if it's going to be psychic phase only it should probably go to a 5+ at least, or just go to a 5+ ignore MWs period, that probably wouldn't be particularly overpowered; they'd still be good at cutting through the defenses, just not quite so good.
Not really a tactica question but how do you guys customize your Shield Captains in order to make them stand out a bit more? I'm wanting to add Trajann to my army but I want to do him in a more dynamic pose, only problem is there aren't really any dynamic Custodes models to use as the base for a conversion. Any thoughts?
(In terms of power level of Custodes for 9th ed btw, all I can tell you is that Custodes are utterly broken in Crusades)
mrhappyface wrote: Not really a tactica question but how do you guys customize your Shield Captains in order to make them stand out a bit more? I'm wanting to add Trajann to my army but I want to do him in a more dynamic pose, only problem is there aren't really any dynamic Custodes models to use as the base for a conversion. Any thoughts?
(In terms of power level of Custodes for 9th ed btw, all I can tell you is that Custodes are utterly broken in Crusades)
For my Captains on jetbikes, one of them is on a Forgeworld Custodes jetbike converted to have a hurricane bolter (just 6 bolters cut and glued into the center slot) and the other is one a jetbike made by Scibor. I've seen people Convert a ForgeWorld terminator into an Allarus for their terminator Captain. For regular plain-Jane foot captain? That's a bit harder. There is that resin one that has the really funky spear.
yukishiro1 wrote: SoS counter anything that isn't targeted MWs. Infernal Gateway is not targeted MWs, it targets the closest model, just like smite. It splashes 3" from the model - not the unit, you were wrong on the "intricacies" there again BTW but you'd have to be pretty silly to let it splash onto something you don't want it to.
Your Custodes. Everything is something you don't want it to.
It's also only 12" range when cast by the LoC, so by definition if they're casting it on your SoS, you're within the bubble to deny it on a 3+ and debuff the casting, so again, you're pretty happy with that.
See, this is where your lack of experience fighting this is showing. The LoC has a 12" Fly Move + 1D6" advance. With the spell range, that gives him an average of 30" to position himself in a way outside the effect of the SoS. You're going to have an extremely hard time blocking that kind of foot print with the 1 unit you mentioned earlier or even with 2 units.
And you don't want to waste your 3+ deny on this. You want to save that for when Magnus is, powerbombing you with a unique super smite, if you can position yourself accordingly (as he has a 42" average threat range with that) or trying to shut down Warp Time if you can position for that (but you're gonna have to advance far and fast).
SoS are area denial against a psychic MW list, and they're very useful for that. It allows you to channel where your opponent's big models can go and still be able to smite.
Again, I'm telling you three things:
1. The list doesn't really mind not smiting for a round or two.
2. If you only take 1-2 SoS units the Chaos player will literally not care and avoid them. They have the Move+Advance+Range to make the SoSnot the closest unit if they don't want it to be.
3. If you do take hordes of them and ball them up to make a big null effect, you will cripple yourself on primary but being confined to a tight radius or, if you put the SoS on the front, like if you wanted to absorb Smite (assuming you were in a great setup where they can't just go around you), Morty will clean it up T1 and you're back to 4 rounds of pain.
The object isn't to stop them from smiting anything, it's to force them to make the choice between being where they would otherwise want to be and having their smites and potentially other powers soaked or strat denied by the SoS.
As I said, they have the move and the range to avoid being tied up in the SoS auras unless you ball your army far, far too much. In which case it's no longer them not being where they want to be: it's you.
Moreover, the list is fairly easy to pilot on positioning. It shows you've never really tried to bring down a Bird in this setup. A T7 3++/6+++ (that heals an additional damage every time it makes the 6+++) monster doesn't go down easy. Some versions stack -1 damage on it too. As a FYI, even without any damage reduction, it would take, on average, approximately 9 Aquilons WITH Slayers of Nightmares AND Trajann's aura to kill the bird in melee.
And that's assuming you can divert fire from Morty and/or catch the thing as it is quite mobile.
The - to cast isn't the important part of the unit (though if they actually ignore the unit and take the penalty over and over it's actually a lot more effective than you give it credit for at -1), the important parts are the smite soak and the 3+ deny strat w/in 18".
I am levelling with you here from practical experience. Soaking Smite damage is not going to save you. It is not a critical portion of this. That said, you're almost never going to have the things you want to be blocking in range of SoS to block it, be it with aura or strat, because their maneuverability so exceeds yours (unless, as I've said, you turtle so hard you're surrendering primary).
The dumbest possible thing you could do with SoS against a Magnus and Morty list is just deploy them up in a line in front
Congratulations, you are now losing whatever you put in front of them to MW's. They have to be part of the front to even have a chance of being in range of anything.
(well, besides clustering them to try to get a -2 or more, that'd be even dumber I guess).
If upfront and not clustered, they'll just be ignored.
That list isn't going to be casting MWs at you much on T1 anyway, certainly not if they're going first.
Might want to re-think that. The average threat range on the Bird is somewhere between 28"-34" depending on the spell. On Magnus it's 36"-42". Morty's assault threat range average is 31". Yes, they can reach out and hurt you quite a bit T1 unless you're way back. In which case the Chaos list already has what it wants: board control.
What you want to do is figure out where your opponent is going to want to send his big models, and put the SoS in a place (our of LOS if they have shooting, though that list doesn't so it doesn't even matter) where they can come out and block smites and threaten with the 3+ deny AFTER your opponent's models move.
This is the inexperience again. Do you see the Nurgling spam? The big guys go behind the now standard WTC blocking terrain (which is large enough to hide the entirety of these huge models). Fast and long range guys like Magnus sit more in the open but so far back you can't really touch them 90% of what's available to our army. The big guys don't want to move. The Nurglings/Beasts of Nurgle/Pink-Horror blob (pick your poison) score the points. The big nasties just want to lie fairly close to the Chaos players own DZ and wait for you to come out. You hide SoS out of line of sight? Fine, they can't absorb spells anymore and anything that is sticking out gets pummeled from outside their 18". You hide your whole army? They're happy to hide and just wait too. We have to be the aggressor here and the reason for that comes down to secondaries.
The Chaos list frequently runs:
WWSWF
Raise the Banners/Engage (depending on matchup)
Mission Secondary/Scramblers
Engage is quite easy with the Nurglings. They'll get 10-15 on that no problem against most armies. When it's dangerous for them, they'll take Raise the Banners (especially on 6 objective maps). Just holding their 3 makes a 15 there.
WWSWF is the Bird, Morty and Magnus. Have fun knocking those points off if you're hiding.
On certain missions, it's another easy 15. Vital Intelligence (Data Intercept), Battle Lines (Vital Ground) is an easy 10, the Scouring (Strategic Scan) is an easy 10 and reasonable 15, Sweep and Clear (Direct Assault) is an easy 15 and Priority Target (Priority Target) is an easy 15. When it's going to be tough, Scramblers.
Note the theme on these objectives? The Chaos list doesn't have to play with you. In fact, it doesn't want to play with you. It wants to sit comfortably back and play Sim City. If you're hiding your SoS and waiting for the psykers to go somewhere, you will wait forever and lose. You've got to be the aggressor in this matchup.
The thing about that list is that their big models really can't afford to position to avoid your SoS because they need to be where they need to be to do their stuff, so you're giving them a bad choice between just sucking up the soaking and the 3+ deny or making a big mistake by moving somewhere ineffective to avoid it.
Again, this is just wrong. The only objective the big things have is punishing you if you come out into the open. The Chaos player just takes the W if you do what you propose. He already forced a hard choice on you: come out of your safe zone or surrender large volumes of VP.
Unfortunately we have no real counter. Grind them down? If we come out to fight we'll take the heavier beating. WWSWF on Telemons? It's easier for the Chaos player to wait until T5 and bum rush the Telemons with its huge maneuverability than it is for us to try and T5 burst down these monsters. We can score Banners and some of the mission secondaries as easily as them, but we don't have anything to fill the WWSWF hole or the primary deficit.
cuda1179 wrote:For my Captains on jetbikes, one of them is on a Forgeworld Custodes jetbike converted to have a hurricane bolter (just 6 bolters cut and glued into the center slot) and the other is one a jetbike made by Scibor. I've seen people Convert a ForgeWorld terminator into an Allarus for their terminator Captain. For regular plain-Jane foot captain? That's a bit harder. There is that resin one that has the really funky spear.
My bike Captains have been easier to convert since the base model is really nice. Probably gonna upset some people but my Custodes army is themed as like a chaos imitation of the Custodes, so everything has flames, skulls, spikes, etc.
The FW captain is an option but again, he's just kind of standing there.
yukishiro1 wrote:Super expensive, but you could use Constantin Valdor if you wanted something really spectacular.
Valdor is probably the most dynamic of the Custodes models (not saying much) but it's a lot of money to hack away at all his detail during his conversion.
When it's dangerous for them, they'll take Raise the Banners (especially on 6 objective maps). Just holding their 3 makes a 15 there.
Nurglings can't raise banners, that is a another basic mistake about how the work game works (and yes, you obviously did think they could, because if you didn't what you wrote makes no sense re: your claim about being able to get 15 points by raising on three objectives). That list would not typically take banners, only two fragile units in the whole army can do it so it's a very risky choice against the vast majority of lists. It is impossible for that list to get 15 points on banners by raising on three objectives, as it can only possibly raise twice in the first turn. To get 15 they'd need to raise and score banners on 4 objectives on at least one turn. (Though that list you posted seems weird to me, it comes out to 1956 according to battlescribe which is a strange number of points to be leaving on the table; if it drops the sword or aegis it could take a third squad of furies).
This is like the third time you've made "points" based on misunderstanding of the rules, while ironically repeatedly saying I'm the one who doesn't understand the "intricacies" and lack "experience."
It's not worth continuing this discussion. It's no wonder you're getting rolled, you're playing based on a made-up set of rules.
When it's dangerous for them, they'll take Raise the Banners (especially on 6 objective maps). Just holding their 3 makes a 15 there.
Nurglings can't raise banners, that is a another basic mistake about how the work game works (and yes, you obviously did think they could, because if you didn't what you wrote makes no sense re: your claim about being able to get 15 points by raising on three objectives).
No, no I didn't say or think that. The winged demons raise banners. That's literally their purpose in the list (that and deploy scramblers). A unit can raid multiple banners, yes?
Predicting your next mistake, yes, it's fully conceivable he gets a turn of 4 banners to make up for only raising 2 T1.
That list would not typically take banners, only two fragile units in the whole army can do it so it's a very risky choice against the vast majority of lists.
No, it's not. Only against indirect fire lists, which is when you opt for something else (and really just AdMech and DG are fielding those in the meta currently
It is impossible for that list to get 15 points on banners by raising on three objectives, as it can only possibly raise twice in the first turn.
See correction above.
To get 15 they'd need to raise and score banners on 4 objectives on at least one turn. (Though that list you posted seems weird to me, it comes out to 1956 according to battlescribe which is a strange number of points to be leaving on the table; if it drops the sword or aegis it could take a third squad of furies).
That list is TJ Lanigan's version, who pioneered it and was the top ranked Chaos player of 2020.
This is like the third time you've made "points" based on misunderstanding of the rules, while ironically repeatedly saying I'm the one who doesn't understand the "intricacies" and lack "experience."
You have made several mistakes. If you want, I can go through how the list in more detail to cure the problem for you. Let me know.
It's not worth continuing this discussion. It's no wonder you're getting rolled, you're playing based on a made-up set of rules.
Sorry, no. You can't on the one hand make things personal by sniping about your opponent not understanding "intricacies" and "lacking experience" and then make repeated mistakes yourself about how rules work. If you start out by claiming your own superior understanding you have to actually demonstrate it; when you show the opposite by repeatedly making mistakes about the rules, all you show is you aren't worth interacting with. Three straight-up mistakes about the rules (you can't sub contemptors for the KoS and have a legal list, infernal gateway splashes from the model, not the unit, and you can't score 15 points with that list by raising on only three objectives) is my limit for taking someone who claims to be superior seriously. You've used up your mistakes. I don't want to continue a discussion that is turning unpleasant so this will be my last response.
But just a friendly FYI for your future discussions with other posters who are more willing to entertain your attitude, TJ Lannigan is now a confirmed (and banned) cheater, so appealing to his authority is probably even less of a winning argument than an appeal to authority generally.
yukishiro1 wrote: Sorry, no. You can't on the one hand make things personal by sniping about your opponent not understanding "intricacies" and "lacking experience" and then make repeated mistakes yourself about how rules work. If you start out by claiming your own superior understanding you have to actually demonstrate it;
Recognizing that you aren't quite an expert on this topic is no slight. My offer to explain it to you more was made sincerely. If you wish to learn feel free to drop me a line.
when you show the opposite by repeatedly making mistakes about the rules, all you show is you aren't worth interacting with.
My posts speak for themselves. I have offered dyou correction where you made mistakes.
Indeed, I would note that when I made an extensive breakdown of scoring, piloting and issues with the list and the deep flaws in your positioning argument, they went completely unanswered.
You've used up your mistakes. I don't want to continue a discussion that is turning unpleasant so this will be my last response.
I only detect unpleasantness from one side but if you wish to step out it's your perogative. I don't offer advice in this thread to force anyone to do anything, only to help them if they want help.
But just a friendly FYI for your future discussions with other posters who are more willing to entertain your attitude, TJ Lannigan is now a confirmed (and banned) cheater, so appealing to his authority is probably even less of a winning argument than an appeal to authority generally.
A bit incorrect. He was given a 30 day suspension from the NE circuit, lost prizes and awards for the NE circuit and forefited ITC points for this year. There are no allegations that when he was listed as top Chaos (2020) there was any foul play (you can't include his ranking in this season, even before suspension, because the season was not over). Indeed, he was a paid for and contracted member of Art of War and competed against some strong players who would likely recognize cheating.
Moreover, the style of the list has become a sensation since then (as I have alluded to with variants). It is a meta list you should expect to see and prepare for if making a TAC list for tournament play.
yukishiro1 wrote:Super expensive, but you could use Constantin Valdor if you wanted something really spectacular.
Valdor is probably the most dynamic of the Custodes models (not saying much) but it's a lot of money to hack away at all his detail during his conversion.
Oh for sure it's not a good use of money. I was just throwing it out there in case you weren't aware of it - lots of people who play 40k don't know about all the special HH models FW puts out.
It's again massively expensive, but if you want someone dynamically posed who would be good for a chaos-y conversion, Angron might be an option too - he has the dynamic pose, and his armor already looks a bit like a chaos-y Custode even without any conversion. The weapons are probably the only thing that need replacing. Hard to say it's worth $100 though...
I think I want to try and run a 3x5 of bolter sisters with a invuln flag, and let them camp an objective. They won't be HARD to move, but it will take dedicated shooting. I wanna run them up the middle, and if I need to I can teleport homer in some heavier support on the flag (See Terminators) My biggest concern is who or how do I take out his DP's with wings. He has 3 in his list, and I don't have that sorta firepower, and I feel like ignoring them is a bad idea.
I would love to see Talons of the E get +1 attacks and S on the charge, making spears viable, and axes wound on 3s against almost everything. I also think we need Auto-transhuman and Bolter discipline.
This is a total pipedream but: Give an ability to Wardens and Terminators that allow them to regenerate wounds. Not really a FnP, but on a 4+ regain x wounds after the fight phase.
Why couldn't Vigilators and Witchseekers go in the Null Rhino now? I can't see anything in the keywords that prevents it, it just says SoS infantry? Not that you'd take them either way, though.
Or do you mean the awesome flying thing from HH? I'd love to see that in 40k, it's one of the coolest models they've ever made.
Honestly, I think we're mostly fine. I'd probably decrease a few strat costs, make most weapons flat 2, axes flat 3, +1W and +1A across the board , Trajann up to 9W, a HQ for the SoS and giving Wardens a 5+++ and the ability to Deny the Witch as if they were a psyker.
Unneeded but would be awesome would be to get Hetaeron Guard, SoS as troops, Jetbike SoS and Oblivion Knights.
Edit: Right, ideally we'd get some Tribunes for our lieutenant aura too.
Eihnlazer wrote: Yeah Yuki, im talking about the 30k SoS transport. Why they didnt port it over to 40k is a mystery to me. No reason not too in the upcoming book.
The Kharon Pattern Aquisitor is such an interesting model, I also never understood why it never got 40k rules. That thing always reminded me of the big sandworms from dune, which basically means it's awsome by default. There is also an upgrade sprue from FW for a double bolt pistol loadout for SoS, which is kinda badass. I'm not sure that loadout would bring us any benefit over prosecutors, but I still want rules for it in 40k.
Regarding weapon updates:
I thought about this a lot and I don't think just making the guardian spears better is going to help our spear custodian guard. I do not think people will take them, because survivability is just key in 9th, so shield guard will always have an advantage there.
What I'd like to see are rules that encourage mixing shields and spears: let's assume for a sec we lose our 3+ invulns, so shields instead get an ability where you can't reroll hits against them and spears get an ability where the squad is -1 to wound (-1 to hit is also an option, but a really weak one) in combat. That way mixing squads would be actually worth considering.
Guardian spears, like manreapers on deathshroud, also need to have 2 profiles. A piercing and a sweeping profile. S+2 AP-3 D2 on piercing and S user AP-2 D1 with double attacks on sweeping.
Eihnlazer wrote: SoS arent bad except that they take up an elite slot, which we already have a shortage of in anything but a battalion.
If your running a battalion, sure toss some in, but they do not survive more than 1 turn to do what you took them for (unless your taking 2 prosecutor squads to hold objectives).
Yes, if you know your fighting a psycher heavy army, you can take Aquillon shield to bodyguard a squad of them, but then they still arent up front where they need to be, and the shield host is crap on all other fronts.
Mortal wounds are simply too prevelent nowadays to cost Custodes appropriately against armies that dont dish out mortal wounds. This is a problem competitively, because to balance custodes against other armies we are too weak at tournaments, and to balance us for tournaments, we are too strong for casual play.
I honestly dont know how to fix it.
I play Custodes at tournaments though, so I obviously want to be on the stronger end.
I fear how prevalent mortal wounds are getting. It's one of the biggest issues in AoS, and widespread mortal wounds are inevitably a bad mechanic that essentially flattens the game to only a handful of relevant unit types.
Eihnlazer wrote: SoS arent bad except that they take up an elite slot, which we already have a shortage of in anything but a battalion.
If your running a battalion, sure toss some in, but they do not survive more than 1 turn to do what you took them for (unless your taking 2 prosecutor squads to hold objectives).
Yes, if you know your fighting a psycher heavy army, you can take Aquillon shield to bodyguard a squad of them, but then they still arent up front where they need to be, and the shield host is crap on all other fronts.
Mortal wounds are simply too prevelent nowadays to cost Custodes appropriately against armies that dont dish out mortal wounds. This is a problem competitively, because to balance custodes against other armies we are too weak at tournaments, and to balance us for tournaments, we are too strong for casual play.
I honestly dont know how to fix it.
I play Custodes at tournaments though, so I obviously want to be on the stronger end.
I fear how prevalent mortal wounds are getting. It's one of the biggest issues in AoS, and widespread mortal wounds are inevitably a bad mechanic that essentially flattens the game to only a handful of relevant unit types.
I've heard this complaint about AoS before. Do we know how Stormcasts handle it (possibly our closest analogue, I don't know AoS that well)?
Stormcast aren't good competitively, aren't particularly elite, and the better builds are ranged alpha strike builds anyway so it doesn't really matter.
AOS has no toughness and no invuln saves (ok, virtually no invuln saves) so MWs are less of a problem there because the math doesn't skew as bad in the first place. The relevant metric there is points per wound, and stormcast do ok on that; it's stuff like LRL that has the really bad point to wound ratios, and they mainly get around it by having roided-up FNP and spell shrug auras (as well as denies on almost every single unit).
The easy way to deal with MW for custodes would just be an army-wide ignore MWs on a 5+ like black templars get. 4+ is probably too much - it should still be one of the more efficient ways to kill them, just not as efficient as it is current - and the 6+ they have right now only for psychic is too little.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Guys, how would we balance Slam Custodes Captains? Give the jetpack custodes to a SC and let me be happy!
I'm O.K. with this
I could see this happen, though I think it's unlikely. The FW custodes range is basically done (except for hetaeron guard) and I don't think we'll see the FW models be released in plastic, especially considering how well our dreadnoughts are selling right now.
What I can see happening is that we maybe, maybe get one character with a venatari-esque jumppack in plastic alongside our codex release.
If we even get a new model release with our new codex I believe the chances for that release being a whole unit or even multiple units is extremely low (I'd love to be wrong on this one). If we get anything I think it will be a singular character at best, so maybe they'll give us a one with jumppack.
What I'd personally like to see is an eyes of the emperor model. A singular operative that maybe can disrupt opponents CP use and/or give us CP, maybe similar to a tallyman. Could also have an ability to turn off obsec.
Yeah I think an Eyes of the Emperor HQ choice, a SoSHQ choice, and putting the SoS 30k transport into 40k are the obvious things. Maybe a Lieutenant style HQ choice too. Right now it feels awkward that you are essentially pushed by the detachment system to take two shield captains (whether named or not) in every pure custodes list.
I really just need to know how GW plans on keeping up with the power creep when it gets to us. We can't suddenly become S/T:6. Even another wound wouldn't really fix the issues with us. It's either damage, which might have to be pretty insane, in which case we would be broken, or it's just flat out survivability, in which case our games become sit on OBJectives and don't die, which I feel is boring. I don't want to get off into wishlisting, but I feel several people have stated numerous times of making out spears and axes a multi-profile weapon, and I think that's a good direction. I didn't before, but now that everyone has some sort of it, I say why not? Then how do we deal with MW spam. We have to be able to take Sisters in a more meaningful capacity. By which I mean their survivability. Give them an invuln when within 6" of a Custodes SC?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I really just need to know how GW plans on keeping up with the power creep when it gets to us. We can't suddenly become S/T:6. Even another wound wouldn't really fix the issues with us. It's either damage, which might have to be pretty insane, in which case we would be broken, or it's just flat out survivability, in which case our games become sit on OBJectives and don't die, which I feel is boring. I don't want to get off into wishlisting, but I feel several people have stated numerous times of making out spears and axes a multi-profile weapon, and I think that's a good direction. I didn't before, but now that everyone has some sort of it, I say why not? Then how do we deal with MW spam. We have to be able to take Sisters in a more meaningful capacity. By which I mean their survivability. Give them an invuln when within 6" of a Custodes SC?
We talked about this fezzik, rather extensively and in multiple threads even. We won't be S/T 6 as you said quite correctly, but our troops going to 4wounds and terminators/bikes going to 5wound would actually be big. It makes a lot of weapons less efficient against as and is also an increase in general survivability against masses small arms fire.
Mortal wounds is an issue, I'm not sure how to fix it, a 5+++ against any mortal wound just might be too good...but I'm not sure. Even if we only get a 6+++ against mortals, it has to be in all phases, not only the psychic phase. On the other hand I fell it has to be said that mortal wounds being a counter to custodes is not by itself a bad thing. We can't be amazing against everything, but it must not be oppressive against us, so if the damage and mortal wound creep continues and most armies can dish out a bunch of mortal wounds each turn, then imo a general 5+++ against mortals for our guys is warranted.
I advocated for multiple weapon profiles for a long time, but I am not very optimistic, that we will actually get them. It would be a very nice design space though, to show that our guys are martial paragons.
And yeah, sisters need to bring more to the table, I'm not sure an invuln would do the trick, but I'm definitely not against it.....like you said, give them a 5++ when they are within 6" of an adeptus custodes unit or something. Would be a nice rule representation of the talons fighting alongside each other.
Edit: maybe also give custodes a benefit when being within 6" of a sisters unit. Idk, like improving their feelnopain against mortal wounds or something.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I really just need to know how GW plans on keeping up with the power creep when it gets to us. We can't suddenly become S/T:6. Even another wound wouldn't really fix the issues with us. It's either damage, which might have to be pretty insane, in which case we would be broken, or it's just flat out survivability, in which case our games become sit on OBJectives and don't die, which I feel is boring. I don't want to get off into wishlisting, but I feel several people have stated numerous times of making out spears and axes a multi-profile weapon, and I think that's a good direction. I didn't before, but now that everyone has some sort of it, I say why not? Then how do we deal with MW spam. We have to be able to take Sisters in a more meaningful capacity. By which I mean their survivability. Give them an invuln when within 6" of a Custodes SC?
We talked about this fezzik, rather extensively and in multiple threads even. We won't be S/T 6 as you said quite correctly, but our troops going to 4wounds and terminators/bikes going to 5wound would actually be big. It makes a lot of weapons less efficient against as and is also an increase in general survivability against masses small arms fire.
Mortal wounds is an issue, I'm not sure how to fix it, a 5+++ against any mortal wound just might be too good...but I'm not sure. Even if we only get a 6+++ against mortals, it has to be in all phases, not only the psychic phase. On the other hand I fell it has to be said that mortal wounds being a counter to custodes is not by itself a bad thing. We can't be amazing against everything, but it must not be oppressive against us, so if the damage and mortal wound creep continues and most armies can dish out a bunch of mortal wounds each turn, then imo a general 5+++ against mortals for our guys is warranted.
I advocated for multiple weapon profiles for a long time, but I am not very optimistic, that we will actually get them. It would be a very nice design space though, to show that our guys are martial paragons.
And yeah, sisters need to bring more to the table, I'm not sure an invuln would do the trick, but I'm definitely not against it.....like you said, give them a 5++ when they are within 6" of an adeptus custodes unit or something. Would be a nice rule representation of the talons fighting alongside each other.
Edit: maybe also give custodes a benefit when being within 6" of a sisters unit. Idk, like improving their feelnopain against mortal wounds or something.
The Culexus forces BS to 6 because if its null status. If SoS forced it to 4 of something, that could help them more than an invuln.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I really just need to know how GW plans on keeping up with the power creep when it gets to us. We can't suddenly become S/T:6. Even another wound wouldn't really fix the issues with us. It's either damage, which might have to be pretty insane, in which case we would be broken, or it's just flat out survivability, in which case our games become sit on OBJectives and don't die, which I feel is boring. I don't want to get off into wishlisting, but I feel several people have stated numerous times of making out spears and axes a multi-profile weapon, and I think that's a good direction. I didn't before, but now that everyone has some sort of it, I say why not? Then how do we deal with MW spam. We have to be able to take Sisters in a more meaningful capacity. By which I mean their survivability. Give them an invuln when within 6" of a Custodes SC?
We talked about this fezzik, rather extensively and in multiple threads even. We won't be S/T 6 as you said quite correctly, but our troops going to 4wounds and terminators/bikes going to 5wound would actually be big. It makes a lot of weapons less efficient against as and is also an increase in general survivability against masses small arms fire.
Mortal wounds is an issue, I'm not sure how to fix it, a 5+++ against any mortal wound just might be too good...but I'm not sure. Even if we only get a 6+++ against mortals, it has to be in all phases, not only the psychic phase. On the other hand I fell it has to be said that mortal wounds being a counter to custodes is not by itself a bad thing. We can't be amazing against everything, but it must not be oppressive against us, so if the damage and mortal wound creep continues and most armies can dish out a bunch of mortal wounds each turn, then imo a general 5+++ against mortals for our guys is warranted.
I advocated for multiple weapon profiles for a long time, but I am not very optimistic, that we will actually get them. It would be a very nice design space though, to show that our guys are martial paragons.
And yeah, sisters need to bring more to the table, I'm not sure an invuln would do the trick, but I'm definitely not against it.....like you said, give them a 5++ when they are within 6" of an adeptus custodes unit or something. Would be a nice rule representation of the talons fighting alongside each other.
Edit: maybe also give custodes a benefit when being within 6" of a sisters unit. Idk, like improving their feelnopain against mortal wounds or something.
The Culexus forces BS to 6 because if its null status. If SoS forced it to 4 of something, that could help them more than an invuln.
You sir, deserve an Exhalt. That is a capital idea. Capital! Now if only GW can avoid making our shields 15 points, and nerfing the Telemon back up to the cost of a baneblade, I will gladly take that and go to the disco.
So I caved, because I am weak and my Valdor model has arrived. Just need to find where the hell I put the Trajann model I have and then I can get to kitbashing
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So honest question: What changes should we expect for Vertus Praetors?
Make HBs AP1? Make Missiles Frag/Krak profiles with basic ML Profiles?
Make lances D2?
Give them an extra wound?
not sure, but i am pretty sure the hurricane bolters are staying at AP0, as ones on the Land Raider Crusader are still AP0. the flak missiles will prob lose the "-1 to non flying", same as the other AA systems. I would think maybe strats keyed around movement options, so for example a strat to advance and fire, but then must roll instead of getting straight 6", or fire twice but cannot move that turn, or cannot move but get a better save as they jink, etc, ect.
thier statline is still pretty good, so im not sure about changes to that.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So honest question: What changes should we expect for Vertus Praetors?
Make HBs AP1? Make Missiles Frag/Krak profiles with basic ML Profiles?
Make lances D2?
Give them an extra wound?
not sure, but i am pretty sure the hurricane bolters are staying at AP0, as ones on the Land Raider Crusader are still AP0. the flak missiles will prob lose the "-1 to non flying", same as the other AA systems. I would think maybe strats keyed around movement options, so for example a strat to advance and fire, but then must roll instead of getting straight 6", or fire twice but cannot move that turn, or cannot move but get a better save as they jink, etc, ect.
thier statline is still pretty good, so im not sure about changes to that.
Stooping Dive probably gets a serious rework given how GW is changing fight first/last and fight eligibility issues. Not sure if it'll be a net gain or loss.
Tanglefoot grenade gets new wording or elimination too.
I think you're right on both weapon profiles.
Lances probably just become flat 2 with no other change. The FW ones are still 1D3 though so you never know...
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So honest question: What changes should we expect for Vertus Praetors?
Make HBs AP1? Make Missiles Frag/Krak profiles with basic ML Profiles?
Make lances D2?
Give them an extra wound?
not sure, but i am pretty sure the hurricane bolters are staying at AP0, as ones on the Land Raider Crusader are still AP0. the flak missiles will prob lose the "-1 to non flying", same as the other AA systems. I would think maybe strats keyed around movement options, so for example a strat to advance and fire, but then must roll instead of getting straight 6", or fire twice but cannot move that turn, or cannot move but get a better save as they jink, etc, ect.
thier statline is still pretty good, so im not sure about changes to that.
Stooping Dive probably gets a serious rework given how GW is changing fight first/last and fight eligibility issues. Not sure if it'll be a net gain or loss.
Tanglefoot grenade gets new wording or elimination too.
I think you're right on both weapon profiles.
Lances probably just become flat 2 with no other change. The FW ones are still 1D3 though so you never know...
I have to agree that hurricane bolters on bikes will likely stay at AP 0, but I'm ok with that. They are still good against hordes and armies like dark eldar and don't desperately need a buff in APimo.
I wouldn't give too much though to the Agamatus weapon stats either, those are easily FAQd.
I agree that dmg 2 on the interceptor lances is likely and I personally hope that they keep the rerolls on the charge.
I agree that it likely for stooping dive to be either removed or completely reworked. Which is where "fight last" abilities come into play. Since we are a combat focused army I think it is likely to believe that we are getting a fight last ability. Maybe they even give it to wardens in some shape or form so they have a reason to exist.
I'd absolutely hate to lose tanglefoot grenade though...
I might suggest that lances do more damage than spears, perhaps as much as axes? I mean, getting hit with a 7 foot piece of steel at jetbike speed, must hurt more than a spear thrust? Split the difference and go to flat 3?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I might suggest that lances do more damage than spears, perhaps as much as axes? I mean, getting hit with a 7 foot piece of steel at jetbike speed, must hurt more than a spear thrust? Split the difference and go to flat 3?
With full rerolls that's too strong imo. If they give them flat damage 3, then they should lock it behind a 2CP strat that works for the current fight phase.
xerxeskingofking wrote: not sure, but i am pretty sure the hurricane bolters are staying at AP0, as ones on the Land Raider Crusader are still AP0. the flak missiles will prob lose the "-1 to non flying", same as the other AA systems. I would think maybe strats keyed around movement options, so for example a strat to advance and fire, but then must roll instead of getting straight 6", or fire twice but cannot move that turn, or cannot move but get a better save as they jink, etc, ect.
thier statline is still pretty good, so im not sure about changes to that.
Fire twice strat? People already gak themselves when I roll 36 dice for 3 models.
I personally don't think their guns or melee need much tweaking (maybe a strat they can use in melee to boost their damage), their survivability is what concerns me; the games where I only bring one unit of three cause I wanna bring other stuff they get focused and die really easily.
Then again, I haven't played too many games recently, so I don't know.
xerxeskingofking wrote: not sure, but i am pretty sure the hurricane bolters are staying at AP0, as ones on the Land Raider Crusader are still AP0. the flak missiles will prob lose the "-1 to non flying", same as the other AA systems. I would think maybe strats keyed around movement options, so for example a strat to advance and fire, but then must roll instead of getting straight 6", or fire twice but cannot move that turn, or cannot move but get a better save as they jink, etc, ect.
thier statline is still pretty good, so im not sure about changes to that.
Fire twice strat? People already gak themselves when I roll 36 dice for 3 models.
I personally don't think their guns or melee need much tweaking (maybe a strat they can use in melee to boost their damage), their survivability is what concerns me; the games where I only bring one unit of three cause I wanna bring other stuff they get focused and die really easily.
Then again, I haven't played too many games recently, so I don't know.
No, they still die easily. Permanent transhuman (ala Dark Angels) would help.
Just as an interesting alternative to just cherrypicking the best rules from the Astartes, how about forcing successful wounds against Custodes to be rerolled?
Ideally after the attacker's rerolls to allow for maximum impact
IHateNids wrote: Just as an interesting alternative to just cherrypicking the best rules from the Astartes, how about forcing successful wounds against Custodes to be rerolled?
Ideally after the attacker's rerolls to allow for maximum impact
You can't reroll a die more than once.
So, if my Plaguebearers (who's weapons can reroll all wounds) swing at your Custodes with that rule, the first set of rolls literally does not matter. Since they'd all be rerolled.
Here's a silly, albeit lore-friendly idea, Custodes seem to be all about pre-match CP usage. X/Y CP, before the match, 1 or 2 units may be selected, of the same unit type, and given Trajaan's re-roll device thing? At any point in the game, that unit may re-roll one save, miss, damage roll, or wound roll, or charge/advance roll?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Here's a silly, albeit lore-friendly idea, Custodes seem to be all about pre-match CP usage. X/Y CP, before the match, 1 or 2 units may be selected, of the same unit type, and given Trajaan's re-roll device thing? At any point in the game, that unit may re-roll one save, miss, damage roll, or wound roll, or charge/advance roll?
Trajann only allows rerolls to hit and wound of 1. Are you talking about giving a whole unit vicor of the blood games?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: No, I'm sorry, I drew a blank, but it's the Moment Shackle. Give that to other units? Regain 3 wounds, Fight again, or make a CP cost nothing.
And yes, I got that confused with VoTBG
Wow that took a while to remember.
Eh, I don't think I could see myself using that.
It'd have to be minimum 2CP or you'd just take it on every unit to effectively double your CP. And if it's 2CP then there are very few strats you could use it on and make a profit in CP, in which case it's just making your precious CP temporary since you'll lose that CP if you lose the unit.
2CP to fight again once per battle is a bit risky since you don't know if you'll need the fight twice and you're also banking on the unit making it to melee before it gets destroyed.
And that leaves a 2CP regen d3 wounds which isn't worth it imo.
Trajann's moment shackle is almost exclusively used for the free strat, the other stuff is situational, so I don't see making the ability cost CP to use be very useful.
I do think one logical place to go is in being able to customize every unit - possibly every single model? - to be special in some way. In the lore, every single Custodian is a legendary warrior in his own right with a long list of titles, honours, and distinguishing features. The fact that they fight in units at all is an unfortunate case of the lore having to come secondary to the game mechanics, they're really all supposed to be independent characters in their own right who fight independently.
One direction you could take that - and I think it would be better to do with points than with CP, similar to the other 9th edition upgrades - is to let literally every single infantry or biker unit in the army pick and pay points for a title, representing some especially significant past achievement. For units, only one model in the unit could take one; maybe you could let shield captains take two. They could be things like:
"Hammer of Witches - This Custodian famously slew X of Y, a <rogue psyker / heretic / xenos psyker> of tremendous power. His iron will and special training allows him not only to resist psychic attacks, but to turn them back against the attacker. This model can Deny the Witch as if he was a psyker, and every time he successfully passes a Deny the Witch test, he may choose to redirect that power instead of causing it to fail. If he choses to redirect the power, he may choose any target within 12", including an enemy model. Resolve that power against the new target, at the same Warp Charge as the caster originally rolled."
Or "Master of Arms - This Custodian is a legendary master of his chosen weapon, finding infinitesimal vulnerabilities in his opponent's defenses that he can exploit to his benefit. Whenever this model fights in combat, as long as it directs all its attacks at the same unit, you may ignore any modifiers to the hit roll, the wound roll, and the damage characteristic of its melee weapons, and you may also ignore any rules which state that a hit roll or a wound roll occurs only on an unmodified roll of X or above."
You could have 10 or 12 of these different titles, and each army could only include 1 of each title. The above are just examples, and are meant to be suitably powerful, but they could be toned down if necessary.
Basically like the PA stuff, but any Infantry or Biker model would be eligible, not just characters, and they would have more flavor and be more interesting mechanically, really unique stuff befitting what are supposed to be really unique figures. You could fold the PA stuff into this too, keeping only the more interesting ones (i.e. the consolidate in any direction ability, and maybe you could even let it override the normal restrictions so you can do it even when based). The idea being that there's a way to make every model, or at least every unit, in your army feel special and unique, like an individual with specific characteristics and heroic achievements.
Theres a few things i'd like added from the HH stuff, like Solidarity (basically coherancy for custodes is one model every 3" instead of 2"), Preternatural skill (no more initiative, but you could have them get fight first against models that have a lower WS than them), and their arae-shrikes gear (made scatter worse, so would make blast weapons get -1 to hit or force them to reroll shots if they roll max).
We do need a forward deploy unit, but the only thing that comes to mind is the Ephoroi assasins. Basically a stealthy custodes assasin guy, sent out to take out key targets. Would have forward deploy and be untargettable unless you were within 9" or something. Would basically have Vexilla Praetor statline and use a guardian spear though.
Tribune would be nice as an alt HQ. Basically liutenant for us. -1 A and W from a captain and with same gear choices.
yukishiro1 wrote: I do think one logical place to go is in being able to customize every unit - possibly every single model? - to be special in some way. In the lore, every single Custodian is a legendary warrior in his own right with a long list of titles, honours, and distinguishing features. The fact that they fight in units at all is an unfortunate case of the lore having to come secondary to the game mechanics, they're really all supposed to be independent characters in their own right who fight independently.
One direction you could take that - and I think it would be better to do with points than with CP, similar to the other 9th edition upgrades - is to let literally every single infantry or biker unit in the army pick and pay points for a title, representing some especially significant past achievement. For units, only one model in the unit could take one; maybe you could let shield captains take two. They could be things like:
"Hammer of Witches - This Custodian famously slew X of Y, a <rogue psyker / heretic / xenos psyker> of tremendous power. His iron will and special training allows him not only to resist psychic attacks, but to turn them back against the attacker. This model can Deny the Witch as if he was a psyker, and every time he successfully passes a Deny the Witch test, he may choose to redirect that power instead of causing it to fail. If he choses to redirect the power, he may choose any target within 12", including an enemy model. Resolve that power against the new target, at the same Warp Charge as the caster originally rolled."
Or "Master of Arms - This Custodian is a legendary master of his chosen weapon, finding infinitesimal vulnerabilities in his opponent's defenses that he can exploit to his benefit. Whenever this model fights in combat, as long as it directs all its attacks at the same unit, you may ignore any modifiers to the hit roll, the wound roll, and the damage characteristic of its melee weapons, and you may also ignore any rules which state that a hit roll or a wound roll occurs only on an unmodified roll of X or above."
You could have 10 or 12 of these different titles, and each army could only include 1 of each title. The above are just examples, and are meant to be suitably powerful, but they could be toned down if necessary.
Basically like the PA stuff, but any Infantry or Biker model would be eligible, not just characters, and they would have more flavor and be more interesting mechanically, really unique stuff befitting what are supposed to be really unique figures. You could fold the PA stuff into this too, keeping only the more interesting ones (i.e. the consolidate in any direction ability, and maybe you could even let it override the normal restrictions so you can do it even when based). The idea being that there's a way to make every model, or at least every unit, in your army feel special and unique, like an individual with specific characteristics and heroic achievements.
That's a very cool and fluffy idea, but way too intricate for GW, I feel its too much effort for them to bother creating 10-12 of these upgrades...or even just 5 for that matter.
They did 10-12 upgrades for necron crypteks - less powerful stuff, and most of them suck, but still essentially the same thing. I dunno why they couldn't do it for custodes, and the book is tiny in terms of units so there's not much excuse for saying it's too much work.
I actually expect to see something like this in the new codex, just not sure if it'll be something you can take on any unit in the book rather than just characters, and they'll probably be more boring, derivative things.
yukishiro1 wrote: They did 10-12 upgrades for necron crypteks - less powerful stuff, and most of them suck, but still essentially the same thing. I dunno why they couldn't do it for custodes, and the book is tiny in terms of units so there's not much excuse for saying it's too much work.
I actually expect to see something like this in the new codex, just not sure if it'll be something you can take on any unit in the book rather than just characters, and they'll probably be more boring, derivative things.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see this implemented properly. I'm just not very optimistic. Unfortunately the possibility of it being just for characters with no real meaningful choices like for crypteks is just more likely imo. Same with multiple profiles for our melee weapons, could be super cool, but I don't think it'll happen. I'd love to be wrong on this though.
yukishiro1 wrote: I do think one logical place to go is in being able to customize every unit - possibly every single model? - to be special in some way. In the lore, every single Custodian is a legendary warrior in his own right with a long list of titles, honours, and distinguishing features. The fact that they fight in units at all is an unfortunate case of the lore having to come secondary to the game mechanics, they're really all supposed to be independent characters in their own right who fight independently.
One direction you could take that - and I think it would be better to do with points than with CP, similar to the other 9th edition upgrades - is to let literally every single infantry or biker unit in the army pick and pay points for a title, representing some especially significant past achievement. For units, only one model in the unit could take one; maybe you could let shield captains take two. They could be things like:
"Hammer of Witches - This Custodian famously slew X of Y, a <rogue psyker / heretic / xenos psyker> of tremendous power. His iron will and special training allows him not only to resist psychic attacks, but to turn them back against the attacker. This model can Deny the Witch as if he was a psyker, and every time he successfully passes a Deny the Witch test, he may choose to redirect that power instead of causing it to fail. If he choses to redirect the power, he may choose any target within 12", including an enemy model. Resolve that power against the new target, at the same Warp Charge as the caster originally rolled."
Or "Master of Arms - This Custodian is a legendary master of his chosen weapon, finding infinitesimal vulnerabilities in his opponent's defenses that he can exploit to his benefit. Whenever this model fights in combat, as long as it directs all its attacks at the same unit, you may ignore any modifiers to the hit roll, the wound roll, and the damage characteristic of its melee weapons, and you may also ignore any rules which state that a hit roll or a wound roll occurs only on an unmodified roll of X or above."
You could have 10 or 12 of these different titles, and each army could only include 1 of each title. The above are just examples, and are meant to be suitably powerful, but they could be toned down if necessary.
Basically like the PA stuff, but any Infantry or Biker model would be eligible, not just characters, and they would have more flavor and be more interesting mechanically, really unique stuff befitting what are supposed to be really unique figures. You could fold the PA stuff into this too, keeping only the more interesting ones (i.e. the consolidate in any direction ability, and maybe you could even let it override the normal restrictions so you can do it even when based). The idea being that there's a way to make every model, or at least every unit, in your army feel special and unique, like an individual with specific characteristics and heroic achievements.
Keeping track of a different special rule per model would be a nightmare.
What Mr happyface said, not just for my opponent, but I would have to redo my entire model collection to make them somehow stand out from each other. I can't even see doing this on a unit basis.
There has been more and more videos popping up on the tubes about how point for point, the Telemon is easily the toughest vehicle in the game, and how Shield Guard are the toughest troops in the game. I really hope we don't get snapped back by the rubber band this edition.
IHateNids wrote: Just as an interesting alternative to just cherrypicking the best rules from the Astartes, how about forcing successful wounds against Custodes to be rerolled?
Ideally after the attacker's rerolls to allow for maximum impact
You can't reroll a die more than once.
So, if my Plaguebearers (who's weapons can reroll all wounds) swing at your Custodes with that rule, the first set of rolls literally does not matter. Since they'd all be rerolled.
Ok, so flip it on it's head.
"Rerolls cannot be made when targetting a unit with X keyword"
Or something like that, but I dont know if it would be too powerful
IHateNids wrote: Just as an interesting alternative to just cherrypicking the best rules from the Astartes, how about forcing successful wounds against Custodes to be rerolled?
Ideally after the attacker's rerolls to allow for maximum impact
You can't reroll a die more than once.
So, if my Plaguebearers (who's weapons can reroll all wounds) swing at your Custodes with that rule, the first set of rolls literally does not matter. Since they'd all be rerolled.
Ok, so flip it on it's head.
"Rerolls cannot be made when targetting a unit with X keyword"
Or something like that, but I dont know if it would be too powerful
IHateNids wrote: Just as an interesting alternative to just cherrypicking the best rules from the Astartes, how about forcing successful wounds against Custodes to be rerolled?
Ideally after the attacker's rerolls to allow for maximum impact
You can't reroll a die more than once.
So, if my Plaguebearers (who's weapons can reroll all wounds) swing at your Custodes with that rule, the first set of rolls literally does not matter. Since they'd all be rerolled.
Ok, so flip it on it's head.
"Rerolls cannot be made when targetting a unit with X keyword"
Or something like that, but I dont know if it would be too powerful
So like the Stratagem The Emperor's Auspice?
But permanent, yeah
Rather than stealing perma-Transhuman (which is Astartes, and Astartes+1), soup up something Custodes themselves already have.
I don't really know, I don't play Custodes (yet) but I picked up a few models in a joblot so would like to have them be interesting to use & feeling unique
IHateNids wrote: Just as an interesting alternative to just cherrypicking the best rules from the Astartes, how about forcing successful wounds against Custodes to be rerolled?
Ideally after the attacker's rerolls to allow for maximum impact
You can't reroll a die more than once.
So, if my Plaguebearers (who's weapons can reroll all wounds) swing at your Custodes with that rule, the first set of rolls literally does not matter. Since they'd all be rerolled.
Ok, so flip it on it's head.
"Rerolls cannot be made when targetting a unit with X keyword"
Or something like that, but I dont know if it would be too powerful
So like the Stratagem The Emperor's Auspice?
But permanent, yeah
Rather than stealing perma-Transhuman (which is Astartes, and Astartes+1), soup up something Custodes themselves already have.
I don't really know, I don't play Custodes (yet) but I picked up a few models in a joblot so would like to have them be interesting to use & feeling unique
We actually do have Transhuman already. It's called Arcane Genetic Alchemy.
Permanent emperors auspice is too strong. Preventing all rerolls is an extremely powerful effect, even more powerful than permanent transhuman.
I would be ok with "half" of emperors auspice as a permanent buff for our guys. Preventing either rerolls to hit or to wound.
I stand by my suggestion that our custodian guard with shield should prevent enemy rerolls to hit (both shooting and melee) , and our guardian spears should give -1 to wound, but only in melee.
This way, mixing units with shield and spear would actually be an option since -1 to wound is such a powerful effect, hence why I would only apply it in melee.
How about permanent Auspex scan? Any unit that DSs within 12" gets an automatic shooting round against it. Call it Genetic Fluff fluff scientific reflexes.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: How about permanent Auspex scan? Any unit that DSs within 12" gets an automatic shooting round against it. Call it Genetic Fluff fluff scientific reflexes.
That's neat, but doesn't fix our problems. We need to be tough both against shooting and against melee, while also being terrifying to deal with in melee, which we are mostly not. Our shield guard is still decent, but with apparent rise of 3+d3 shooting weapons, this might change. I mean watch the latest tabletop titans game....granted it wasn't a tournament game, but the custodes got absolutely stomped, wasn't even close.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: How about permanent Auspex scan? Any unit that DSs within 12" gets an automatic shooting round against it. Call it Genetic Fluff fluff scientific reflexes.
That's neat, but doesn't fix our problems. We need to be tough both against shooting and against melee, while also being terrifying to deal with in melee, which we are mostly not. Our shield guard is still decent, but with apparent rise of 3+d3 shooting weapons, this might change. I mean watch the latest tabletop titans game....granted it wasn't a tournament game, but the custodes got absolutely stomped, wasn't even close.
The 1D3+3 stuff is generally single shot and hitting invulns. It takes like 4-5 Raiders to take down one Shield Guardian I think (Scourges with re-roll 1's to Hit and Wound are a bit more efficient but they aren't the popular choice for platform and get -1 if they move or DS). I wouldn't worry about those.
The Incubi getting 14 S5 +1 to wound attacks at flat 2 damage is probably a bit more worrisome. Plus the plethora of fight last.
That said, I think we really are fairly durable conventionally. I worry about MW spam, not even just from Psykers. A 10 man Reaver squad doing Eviscerating Fly By averages 5 MW on a squad. 20 Hellions (but or a gimmick build) is 10 MW average. Some Drukhari are bringing double Void Bombers too (pick a place it moved over, can deal MW to everything within 6").
DG and Necrons are pretty powerful in this regard too.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: How about permanent Auspex scan? Any unit that DSs within 12" gets an automatic shooting round against it. Call it Genetic Fluff fluff scientific reflexes.
That's neat, but doesn't fix our problems. We need to be tough both against shooting and against melee, while also being terrifying to deal with in melee, which we are mostly not. Our shield guard is still decent, but with apparent rise of 3+d3 shooting weapons, this might change. I mean watch the latest tabletop titans game....granted it wasn't a tournament game, but the custodes got absolutely stomped, wasn't even close.
The 1D3+3 stuff is generally single shot and hitting invulns. It takes like 4-5 Raiders to take down one Shield Guardian I think (Scourges with re-roll 1's to Hit and Wound are a bit more efficient but they aren't the popular choice for platform and get -1 if they move or DS). I wouldn't worry about those.
The Incubi getting 14 S5 +1 to wound attacks at flat 2 damage is probably a bit more worrisome. Plus the plethora of fight last.
That said, I think we really are fairly durable conventionally. I worry about MW spam, not even just from Psykers. A 10 man Reaver squad doing Eviscerating Fly By averages 5 MW on a squad. 20 Hellions (but or a gimmick build) is 10 MW average. Some Drukhari are bringing double Void Bombers too (pick a place it moved over, can deal MW to everything within 6").
DG and Necrons are pretty powerful in this regard too.
Yes, you are right, dark lances targeting our shield guard is not the best option. Regarding your point about mortal wounds: maybe we do really need that 5+ feelnopain against all mortals. I was on the fence if that ability would be too good overall, but I now think we are actually really going to need it.
Imo there are only two things that make our guys actually tough against things like incubi: inhibiting rerolls and -1 to wound abilities. I think we really need those in some form in our 9th ed codex that is not exclusively tied to stratagems. Also we need some fight last ability.....seriously GW is really pushing this crap and every army gets it, GW should just give it to wardens, that way the can actually to something.
Tiberias wrote: Permanent emperors auspice is too strong. Preventing all rerolls is an extremely powerful effect, even more powerful than permanent transhuman.
I would be ok with "half" of emperors auspice as a permanent buff for our guys. Preventing either rerolls to hit or to wound.
I stand by my suggestion that our custodian guard with shield should prevent enemy rerolls to hit (both shooting and melee) , and our guardian spears should give -1 to wound, but only in melee.
This way, mixing units with shield and spear would actually be an option since -1 to wound is such a powerful effect, hence why I would only apply it in melee.
Cannot reroll wounds then, even stealing the ability name from arcane genetic alchemy.
Would allow Custodian-Pattern Storm Shields (or some equally copyrightable name) to then convey a -1 to hit possibly?
Tiberias wrote: Permanent emperors auspice is too strong. Preventing all rerolls is an extremely powerful effect, even more powerful than permanent transhuman.
I would be ok with "half" of emperors auspice as a permanent buff for our guys. Preventing either rerolls to hit or to wound.
I stand by my suggestion that our custodian guard with shield should prevent enemy rerolls to hit (both shooting and melee) , and our guardian spears should give -1 to wound, but only in melee.
This way, mixing units with shield and spear would actually be an option since -1 to wound is such a powerful effect, hence why I would only apply it in melee.
Cannot reroll wounds then, even stealing the ability name from arcane genetic alchemy.
Would allow Custodian-Pattern Storm Shields (or some equally copyrightable name) to then convey a -1 to hit possibly?
Sure, but - 1 to hit is basically cosmetic nowadays, it doesn't do anything, especially in melee where everyone and their mother gets +1 to hit somehow. Also with the stupid cap they implemented, it's even less valuable.
So I can see them doing that, giving the the shields a -1 to hit ability like the galatus dreadnought has, but I'd be sad seeing it because it's really weak.
Edit: so this is just my opinion and I don't claim I know best about this stuff, but I think we are all in agreement that custodes should be one of the toughest armies point for point. So how can we achieve that? Imo there is a clear hierarchy of defensive buffs/abilities a unit can have:
1. Inhibiting rerolls to wound/hit
2. - 1 to wound
3. Permanent transhuman/ - 1 dmg 4. -1 enemy weapon strength
5. -1 to hit
Bearing that in mind and considering that on a D6 system with stats ranging from 1-10, there is not much you can improve on our profiles except wounds, which is also desperately needed.
So imo we need at least one of the top 3 defensive buffs baked into our units, plus one additional wound on all our infantry/bikes.
That honestly wouldn't be crazy in any way shape or form considering the current codex creep and would bring our guys up to shape. I would even give these buffs to our guys if we don't lose the 3+ invuln on the shields.
I feel like the goal posts of what we are weak against keeps shifting. And that is because with every new codex in 9th, we have a load of new weaknesses. Druk are OP, and will get nerfed back down. Maybe not as soon as wished, but they will not remain at their current level. We need to look past them. Our biggest threats are still hordes and psykers right? War of the Spider really helped us on the Psyker defense, but we still need more attacks against hordes.
I have been tinkering with an idea from DND on a magic sword I gave to one of my players recently. "Short sword of godlin slaying" If you are facing more than 2 creatures within 5 feet, you gain 2+x extra attacks. So 5 goblins, 3 extra attacks.
TLDR: Give us blast rules for melee. Just us. Call it perseverence through overwhelming odds. Gain attacks equal the the ammount of models in base contact with the attacking model?
Audustum wrote: I think in 30k the shields allow invulnerable re-rolls (at least something Custodes have does). That is another option (though won't help MW).
Given how strong and annoying the shield captain with a 3++ invul and just one re-roll per turn is, I doubt anyone would be happy with all our shields getting re-rollable 3++ invul saves. Also, a re-rollable 3++ is better than a 2+ save.
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: TLDR: Give us blast rules for melee. Just us. Call it perseverence through overwhelming odds. Gain attacks equal the the ammount of models in base contact with the attacking model?
Do people struggle with hordes that much? Between 36 bolter shots from bikes, 15 shots of varying profile from terminators and telemons putting out 22 shots from cannons and rockets, we've got a fair amount to deal with that. Honestly I find myself struggling more against vehicles than hordes.
Audustum wrote: I think in 30k the shields allow invulnerable re-rolls (at least something Custodes have does). That is another option (though won't help MW).
Given how strong and annoying the shield captain with a 3++ invul and just one re-roll per turn is, I doubt anyone would be happy with all our shields getting re-rollable 3++ invul saves. Also, a re-rollable 3++ is better than a 2+ save.
I think it's just re-roll 1's in 30k, but yes, would likely cause some consternation.
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: TLDR: Give us blast rules for melee. Just us. Call it perseverence through overwhelming odds. Gain attacks equal the the ammount of models in base contact with the attacking model?
Do people struggle with hordes that much? Between 36 bolter shots from bikes, 15 shots of varying profile from terminators and telemons putting out 22 shots from cannons and rockets, we've got a fair amount to deal with that. Honestly I find myself struggling more against vehicles than hordes.
Yeah I've never had a horde problem either for about the same reason. The Galatus does work here as well between the flamer and the large volume of attacks.
Custodes just need more attacks period, it's not even about hordes per se. It's a bit of a joke how left behind they've been by the inflation in the attack stat we've seen over the course of 8th and now 9th edition.
yukishiro1 wrote: Custodes just need more attacks period, it's not even about hordes per se. It's a bit of a joke how left behind they've been by the inflation in the attack stat we've seen over the course of 8th and now 9th edition.
Base guard to 4 base, elites (wardens/termies/bikes) to 5 base, and shield captains to 6.
Plus sweep attack profiles on spears and/or axes (maybe make axes Sx2, and spears have a sweep profile if you wanted to differentiate them?) , and that'd probably get to where it needs to go.
I am not joking when I say I am the only Custodes player I know that runs bikes. Everyone just runs some form of Terminator/Shields/Trajaan, Telemons. Bikes are about equal to Wardens now, and that's hilarious.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I am not joking when I say I am the only Custodes player I know that runs bikes. Everyone just runs some form of Terminator/Shields/Trajaan, Telemons. Bikes are about equal to Wardens now, and that's hilarious.
Bikes are obviously not as good as they were in 8th. But hurricane bolters and salvo launchers (with the archeotech ammunition strat) are still very valuable.
Salvo launchers with the strat is imo one of the most reliable anti tank we have right now and hurricane bolters can do wonders against the new dark eldar...if you manage to pop their transports first. Bikes are far from being as bad as wardens.
Bikes need one more wound, one more attack and the lances should do more dmg on the charge in addition to rerolling wounds, then I think they'd be really solid again.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I am not joking when I say I am the only Custodes player I know that runs bikes. Everyone just runs some form of Terminator/Shields/Trajaan, Telemons. Bikes are about equal to Wardens now, and that's hilarious.
Bikes are obviously not as good as they were in 8th. But hurricane bolters and salvo launchers (with the archeotech ammunition strat) are still very valuable.
Salvo launchers with the strat is imo one of the most reliable anti tank we have right now and hurricane bolters can do wonders against the new dark eldar...if you manage to pop their transports first. Bikes are far from being as bad as wardens.
Bikes need one more wound, one more attack and the lances should do more dmg on the charge in addition to rerolling wounds, then I think they'd be really solid again.
Bikes have a few other things too:
1. If you Stooping Dive a charger the charger CANNOT swing at you, at all, even if you are forced to fight last (hi, Drukhari).
2. Jetbikes have comparable travel distance to DEldar and can this play the positioning game against them (14" Fly vs. 8"+1D6" (Wyches in this case)).
3. Solar Watch Jetbikes are incredible shooting platforms with a 21" Move+Advance while still firing Hurricane Bolters.
4. Even Hurricanes aren't too bad on Raiders. Takes 5 with re-roll 1's to Hit in Rapid Fire range or 10 outside of it. If you're in Rapid range you can then charge the juicy insides.
Honestly asking? How many times have you seen bike on tables in the last few months? I am not saying they are bad, I do think they are in need of a wound buff, but otherwise they do their work and don't need much support. I do wish our missiles were stronger, but they are not dedicated anti-T8.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Honestly asking? How many times have you seen bike on tables in the last few months? I am not saying they are bad, I do think they are in need of a wound buff, but otherwise they do their work and don't need much support. I do wish our missiles were stronger, but they are not dedicated anti-T8.
Well I always run bikes cause zoomy units are always fun.
From my experience, I don't think bikes need any boosts to damage since they always do work for me if they're still alive, the only problem is the "if" part. With the 4++ invulnerable, they're easily the weakest thing any Custodes player will be fielding: our troops get a 3++ invul, our terminators are safely tucked away in deepstrike, our characters get look out sir and our dreadnoughts get T7/8 and a -1 to damage. When compared to other Custodes stuff, they are the glass cannons of the codex. I think either a 3++ jink save for 2CP and/or 5W so they don't get countered so hard by 2 and d3 damage weapons would be nice.
The melta missiles could maybe do with a change since, against a T5/6/7 vehicle with a 3+/5++ save, the melta only does an average of 0.7 more wounds. Maybe d3 shots? Or make it Rapid Fire 1? Then make the Flakkburst 2d3 shots but keep the -1 to hit vs non-fly units since it already gets the blast rule.
What about a stratagem "Full Payload" where you fire all the missiles in the machine, for flat Heavy 6, Frag (s7) profile. Or flat Heavy 3 Krak (S8)Profile.
Not a big fan of stratagems to make bad units good myself.
At the very, very minimum, the melta profile needs to just be a multi-melta - 2 shots, +2 damage w/in half range. Maybe then just get rid of the flakk profile entirely honestly, and then make the hurricane bolter some WordWord (TM) Bolter that's just flat assault 12, AP 1. Or else just collapse the two weapons into one weapon that can be shot either as the MM or as the 12 shot assault bolter, and just give them some actual flexibility instead of having to choose one or the other.
The bikes are just terrible right now, they need dramatic surgery to be playable, and I don't think just dropping points on them is the way to do it.
Dawneagle jetbikes are without a doubt the best single unit in the game if you were to take all stratagems and tactics out of the game.
A unit of 10 is absolutely devestating 1 on 1 vs anything else.
However, point for point they are too squishy in today's meta vs all the newly buffed 9th edition codex's.
If they actually got to use their 2+ save, they would be fine, but they dont. There isnt an army in the game that doesnt have access to some ranged weaponry that either has AP-2 and/or damage 2/4 for 10-20pts.
When an army can spam 20pt weapons that can take out an 85pt model in a single shot half the time, said models arent gonna have a good time.
Custodes are currently pointed with the assumption that it would take an entire army shooting at a 450-700pt to kill it in a turn. The reality is however, it only takes about half that to kill them.
Even IF bikes get another wound on top, their defense is already the best in the game, and still dies horribly for the cost. I don't know if you can realistically improve on a 2+4++6+++, 4 wounds, but I do like the "Jink" idea of -1 to hit for 2 CP per unit. Even that wouldn't really do much. Shooting is just too good in this edition. You are pretty much rolling 50/50 on whether to die or live.
Thats the underlying issue.
Too much things force a 4++ and have multidamage now.
The only thing that can save you is that coin flip.
All other defenses are, well not exactly meaningless, but T6 means nothing in most cases. 4W is equivalent to 2W or 3W very often.
When was the last time you could actually use the 2+ you paid for and not the 4++ (if not using Adamantium and Auramite or a 3++ stormshield)?
Because I cant recall...
I agree with everything that has been said about shooting being too cost efficient and deadly, especially against custodes. The question is, how can GW fix that?
I fully agree with Fezzik that you can't improve our statline anymore, save for wounds and attacks and those will likely get a small bump in our new codex anyway.
So what is there left to buff? Nothing save for an extra layer of rules that provide protection of some sort. No rerolls, reducing AP, -1 to wound...I don't know, maybe we get a reverse blood angel "chapter tactic": everything that tries to wound us, is - 1 to wound or something.
-1 to wound across the army still wouldn't address the fact that the bikes cost too much relative to infantry or dreads.
The basic problem is they're just generically solid at everything, without being good at any one thing...and so you pay 85 points a model for stuff that doesn't have anywhere close to 85 points per model worth of any one thing. Their defense is crap compared to their points cost; their melee is junk compared to what you can get for 85 points elsewhere, their shooting is even more crap than that, etc etc.
Units that are just strong all-rounders typically only work well in 40k if they're cheap, and bikes are the opposite of cheap. So you're tying up a huge proportion of your points into a unit that doesn't actually excel at anything. And in 9th, you're doing it in a game with a minimum of 4 objectives, and often 6, that you need to split your forces across, so that becomes an even bigger ask.
It's hard to really know what they can do with them, short of a rewrite that learns into *something* instead of being such an all-rounder. Looking at the rest of the army, I'd be inclined to lean into the shooting, since that's what doesn't really exist elsewhere.
I'd also probably let them combat squad into individual bikes at the start of the game for free, so you'd have the option of using them for engage and to zip around delivering ob-sec to wherever you need it without being hampered by having to use the whole unit. It fits the lore, and it allows custodes a way to, if not exactly play MSU, at least get a bunch more moderately costed units on the table.
yukishiro1 wrote: -1 to wound across the army still wouldn't address the fact that the bikes cost too much relative to infantry or dreads.
The basic problem is they're just generically solid at everything, without being good at any one thing...and so you pay 85 points a model for stuff that doesn't have anywhere close to 85 points per model worth of any one thing. Their defense is crap compared to their points cost; their melee is junk compared to what you can get for 85 points elsewhere, their shooting is even more crap than that, etc etc.
Units that are just strong all-rounders typically only work well in 40k if they're cheap, and bikes are the opposite of cheap. So you're tying up a huge proportion of your points into a unit that doesn't actually excel at anything. And in 9th, you're doing it in a game with a minimum of 4 objectives, and often 6, that you need to split your forces across, so that becomes an even bigger ask.
It's hard to really know what they can do with them, short of a rewrite that learns into *something* instead of being such an all-rounder. Looking at the rest of the army, I'd be inclined to lean into the shooting, since that's what doesn't really exist elsewhere.
I'd also probably let them combat squad into individual bikes at the start of the game for free, so you'd have the option of using them for engage and to zip around delivering ob-sec to wherever you need it without being hampered by having to use the whole unit. It fits the lore, and it allows custodes a way to, if not exactly play MSU, at least get a bunch more moderately costed units on the table.
I agree with your premise, but if bikes are too expensive and offer too little for their cost, I think GW can either make them cheaper and not improve them a lot, same with our infantry. Or they give them appropriate buffs to make them survivable and worth their premium cost. Now, I believe custodes should be written in a way that they are truly worth their premium cost, after all we are supposed to be THE elite faction.
So I propose a thought experiment: what buffs would bikes need to be actually survivable and worth their cost in the current meta of codex creep and extreme, cost efficient lethality in shooting (and melee for that matter)?
Do they need 7wounds like Fezzik suggests? Do they need -1 to wound, plus you can't reroll hits against them..... -1 dmg like death guard? I am not saying any of those are inherently unreasonable, I'm genuinely curious what people think it would take to make premium priced units like bikes, that actually have a stellar staline, appropriately surviable in 9th.
just to add to the discussion, GWalready dropped the points cost by 10PPM earlier this year, so they obviously agree that they were over costed before.
as a reference, the Multi melta land speeder costs 70pts, and has 6wounds, T6 and a 3+ save, no invul. I suppose the question is what does a jetbike have that justifes that 15 points extra but 2 less wounds?
I asked for -1 ap on hurricane bolters and everyone lost their minds.
Right now I am honestly saying make bikes 7/7, and their lances stay +1.
My biggest concern is that we were made at the start of 8th, which was a radically different game dev mindset than the one in 9th, and that is clear to anyone. In order to justify our cost now, in 9th, we need to be much better. I'd say bikes are up to 7/7, and our spears need to be flat 3, axes 4, swords 2. Terminators need to be 6/6.
I am just wishlisting now.
I want to make an all bikes list competetive, but there is no way in 9th.
I don't think buffing bike defense is the way to go, Custodes already have plenty of defensive units that are going to do that better - and if you make bikes better at that than the other options, then people will stop taking the other stuff. Look at Wardens - this is a classic example of a unit that doesn't see play because it has no role in the army that isn't done by something else better.
They need to find a niche for bikes that's different than just "generically good at everything at a premium price point." Letting them combat squad for free to become mobile one-model units gives them that, buffing their shooting would give them that, or you could lean into the mobility by giving them some movement tricks like being able to jump out of combat after fighting like the seer council...but they need something to be their specialty that isn't just "what the rest of the army can do, but more."
By making them 7/7 do you mean 7 toughness and 7 wounds?
If that is what you mean, I can see them getting more wounds, but I'd be very, very surprised by GW bumping the toughness of our bikes and termis, I can't picture that happening, ever.
This is one of the problems of the stat system in 40k. I've mentioned this a lot of times, but you can't endlessly inflate stats like toughness forever, especially when said stat never ever exceeds T8, even on titans (for whatever reason?). It makes no sense and it doesn't work in the long run. So our bikes becoming the same toughness as our smaller dreadnoughts I just can't see happening.
yukishiro1 wrote: I don't think buffing bike defense is the way to go, Custodes already have plenty of defensive units that are going to do that better - and if you make bikes better at that than the other options, then people will stop taking the other stuff. Look at Wardens - this is a classic example of a unit that doesn't see play because it has no role in the army that isn't done by something else better.
They need to find a niche for bikes that's different than just "generically good at everything at a premium price point." Letting them combat squad for free to become mobile one-model units gives them that, buffing their shooting would give them that, or you could lean into the mobility by giving them some movement tricks like being able to jump out of combat after fighting like the seer council...but they need something to be their specialty that isn't just "what the rest of the army can do, but more."
I get your point, but my point was not to just buff the bikes defensive, all our guys need that, I just picked them as an example.
I think your ideas are great, but it wouldn't change that bikes still die too easy and it basically always comes down to a 50% invuln, which isn't enough with the cost efficient super deadly shooting in the new codex creep.
So here's a direct comparison to another really tough unit atm: Deathwing Knights.
For 255pts you get 3 bikes while for 240pts you get 5 knights plus the watcher in the dark.
Movement: Bikes easily win here by almost a factor of 3.
WS/BS: Again, bikes win here by a small amount.
S: Bikes have the better base strength but Knights are S6 (for their sergeant) and S8 for the rest of the squad in cc, so Knights win.
T: Bikes have better toughness but it only really matters against small arms fire that's not gonna hurt them anyway since Knights can only be wounded on a 4+, Knights win here.
W: Due to the prevalence of 2D weapons, the Bike's 4W is basically the same as the Knights 3 wounds, the Bikes still win here but only in a few cases.
A: Knights get 2 attacks each but that goes to 3 when they charge or are charged so Bikes only edge them by 1 attack.
Ld: Both units essentially leadership 9 except Knights also ignore all modifiers to combat attrition tests, so they win.
Sv: Both get 2+/4++ saves but knights get to ignore AP-1 and AP-2 gives them a 3+ save, making knights better.
Shooting output: Bikes win since Knights don't have any shooting
Melee output: A single Bike gets 4x S6 AP-3 Dd3 attacks hitting on 2s, re-rolling to wound on the charge, two knights (about equivalent amount of points) gets 6x S8 AP-2 (-3 if in assault doctrine) D3 attacks hitting on 3s on the charge.
Against T7 3+ targets: a Bike does 3 wounds, 2 knights do 6-7 wounds
Against T8 4++ targets: a Bike does almost 2 wounds, 2 knights do 3 wounds
Against T4 3+ targets: a Bike does 5 wounds, 2 knights do 8 wounds (if 2 wound target it's 5 dead for both)
Against T3 4+ targets: a Bike does 6-7 wounds, 2 knights do 10 wounds (if 1 wound target it's 3 dead for both)
For every target, knights are better (not an extensive list of course).
Defense: A single Bike is a T6 4W target with a 2+/4++, 2 knights are T4 3W (6W total) target with a 1+/4++ and can't be wounded on anything less than a 4+. From what I can guess, Bikes would only be better if being shot at by a S5 AP0 D3 weapon which I don't believe excists.
So Bikes only best Deathwing knights in two areas: mobility and shooting, and even then Deathwing Knights get deepstrike for free so the movement problem isn't that big.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Just out of curiosity, what does a DA Bike captain with SS/TH cost? That's the closest model I can think of for stats.
i dont know, i cant find something like that, as the Master of the Ravenwing (ie the captain of the 2nd company of the Dark Angels) is the named character Samael on his special jetbike, and costs 150pts. (t5, w6, 3+, for the record).
a generic Codex: space marine captain on a bike, with SS/TH is 100pts base, plus 20 for the TH and 10 for the SS, so 130pts.
Right, and a TH hits at S8 ap3 d4, where a lance only hits s6, and ap1 dd3. Hardly the same. Our saves are much better though. Hard to justify the bikes costing less?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Right, and a TH hits at S8 ap3 d4, where a lance only hits s6, and ap1 dd3. Hardly the same. Our saves are much better though. Hard to justify the bikes costing less?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Right, and a TH hits at S8 ap3 d4, where a lance only hits s6, and ap1 dd3. Hardly the same. Our saves are much better though. Hard to justify the bikes costing less?
yhea, but we have to un-entangle how much of that cost is his captains auras/abilities, "look out sir" character protection, etc, and how much is for the statline, and how much that is worth to a theoretical space marine army. So, its still something of a apples to oranges comparison
I thought all thunder hammers were flat 4 now? Is that not a thing? I will admit I am not 100% on all the minutia, but I could have sworn they were flat 4 damage?
Anyway, Would Assault Marine LTs be better? I think our "Re-roll wounds on charge" would offset re-roll 1s by captain, which he can't get anyway, as he's not a Chapter Master.
So I think either a smash captain with TH/SS or a Bike Captain with same is likely our closest competitor to Vertus Praetor. But are we looking at this the wrong direction? Instead of model then up, why not go Character and down. Start with SC on Bike, and once we have that pointed, go from there.
I'll start, SC on bikes with just lance and HB-110 points. Missiles are an extra 5. Miser is 3. (fully expecting a buff to salvo launcher)
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I thought all thunder hammers were flat 4 now? Is that not a thing? I will admit I am not 100% on all the minutia, but I could have sworn they were flat 4 damage?
Anyway, Would Assault Marine LTs be better? I think our "Re-roll wounds on charge" would offset re-roll 1s by captain, which he can't get anyway, as he's not a Chapter Master.
So I think either a smash captain with TH/SS or a Bike Captain with same is likely our closest competitor to Vertus Praetor. But are we looking at this the wrong direction? Instead of model then up, why not go Character and down. Start with SC on Bike, and once we have that pointed, go from there.
I'll start, SC on bikes with just lance and HB-110 points. Missiles are an extra 5. Miser is 3. (fully expecting a buff to salvo launcher)
I think comparing bikes to TWC is a rather close comparison.
Thunderwulves with TH/SS are:
2+/4++ T5 4W 2A 10" move, advance and charge
If they get the charge, they hit on 3s with Thunderhammers, get 1A and add the attacks from the wolves.
If in assault doctrine, they're even nastier with S8 -3 D3 - which explode on 6s!
2+/4++ T5 4W 3A 10", advance and charge
3 S8 -3 D3 on 3+ at least
3 S5 -3 D1 on 3+ at least
Cost: 65 pts
Plus the multitude of buffs you can pile on with chaplains and wolf priest and charge re-roll auras.
Compared to a Vertus Praetor:
2+/4++ T6 4W 4A 14"
4 S6 -3 DD3, reroll wounds on charge
Saves are the same, wounds are the same, in effect 2 less attacks, 1 more T and 4" movement and autoadvance 6" - but cannot advance and charge.
The attacks are of inferior quantity and quality and there's basically no way of buffing them up, except RR1 for the hit rolls.
Cost: 85 pts
Now is less and worse attacks, not being able to advance and charge, more movement and the inconsequential T6 worth 20 pts? I think not.
TWC are like a tactical nuke. They're fast, durable and kill whatever they come in contact with.
Bikes are the same, but way less offensive power at a higher price.
Therefore I would propose to make them just as deadly, if not more, in melee.
5A, D3 lances.
Advance and charge, fall back and shoot/charge
make the weapons assault.
The flak missile is terrible against anything but...uh... pteraxii? and is a non-factor currently. That one needs help.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I'll start, SC on bikes with just lance and HB-110 points. Missiles are an extra 5. Miser is 3. (fully expecting a buff to salvo launcher)
So right now a Raven Wing Chapter Master on Bike with a 2+/4++/5+++ save, -1 to hit Warlord Trait, can only be wounded on a 4+ and a Thunder Hammer is 190pts.
This has 1 less wound (unless you take captain commander, then it's 3 less wounds), 1 less toughness, and a worse invul save than a Shield Captain. It can't be wounded as easy with high strength weapons and has a -1 to hit. So I'd say comparable survivability.
If the Shield Captain charged the Smash Captain he would do around 1.5 wounds to him.
If the Smash Captain charged our Shield Captain he would do around 2 wounds to him.
This is without spending any stratagems since I don't know what a Raven Wing Captain has access to.
Making the Shield Captain 80pts cheaper than that is a bit too much I'd wager. 175pts for our Captains is fine as is, especially if you plan to give Custodes bikes extra rules.
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Thairne wrote: I think comparing bikes to TWC is a rather close comparison.
Thunderwulves with TH/SS are:
2+/4++ T5 4W 2A 10" move, advance and charge
If they get the charge, they hit on 3s with Thunderhammers, get 1A and add the attacks from the wolves.
If in assault doctrine, they're even nastier with S8 -3 D3 - which explode on 6s!
2+/4++ T5 4W 3A 10", advance and charge
3 S8 -3 D3 on 3+ at least
3 S5 -3 D1 on 3+ at least
Cost: 65 pts
Plus the multitude of buffs you can pile on with chaplains and wolf priest and charge re-roll auras.
Compared to a Vertus Praetor:
2+/4++ T6 4W 4A 14"
4 S6 -3 DD3, reroll wounds on charge
Saves are the same, wounds are the same, in effect 2 less attacks, 1 more T and 4" movement and autoadvance 6" - but cannot advance and charge.
The attacks are of inferior quantity and quality and there's basically no way of buffing them up, except RR1 for the hit rolls.
Cost: 85 pts
Now is less and worse attacks, not being able to advance and charge, more movement and the inconsequential T6 worth 20 pts? I think not.
TWC are like a tactical nuke. They're fast, durable and kill whatever they come in contact with.
Bikes are the same, but way less offensive power at a higher price.
Therefore I would propose to make them just as deadly, if not more, in melee.
5A, D3 lances.
Advance and charge, fall back and shoot/charge
make the weapons assault.
The flak missile is terrible against anything but...uh... pteraxii? and is a non-factor currently. That one needs help.
What we really need is a faction wide nerf of everything that got its codex so far, stop the codex creep rather than adding to it. Cause that's gonna happen is 40k will need gutting again after the ridiculousness has gotten too much.
Quote from Tien Shin Han, DBZA, "The fact that you have any hope left at all, is your most admirable quality."
But honestly, how do you balance Custodes without making them broken? We already pay more than anyone in the game for our base units, our sisters are essentially BL exclusive grade, we have a single named character that isn't hot garbage, and out units ride the line between broken and pointless. I hate to say this, but we need better Forgeworld stuff, if GW can't/Won't engage. Make a Venetari SC. Make a Venerable Telemon, I don't know. Give us some form of FW level silliness like a Dakka boat LR that makes the Repulsor look like a Salamander.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I really just need to know how GW plans on keeping up with the power creep when it gets to us. We can't suddenly become S/T:6. Even another wound wouldn't really fix the issues with us. It's either damage, which might have to be pretty insane, in which case we would be broken, or it's just flat out survivability, in which case our games become sit on OBJectives and don't die, which I feel is boring. I don't want to get off into wishlisting, but I feel several people have stated numerous times of making out spears and axes a multi-profile weapon, and I think that's a good direction. I didn't before, but now that everyone has some sort of it, I say why not? Then how do we deal with MW spam. We have to be able to take Sisters in a more meaningful capacity. By which I mean their survivability. Give them an invuln when within 6" of a Custodes SC?
We talked about this fezzik, rather extensively and in multiple threads even. We won't be S/T 6 as you said quite correctly, but our troops going to 4wounds and terminators/bikes going to 5wound would actually be big. It makes a lot of weapons less efficient against as and is also an increase in general survivability against masses small arms fire.
Mortal wounds is an issue, I'm not sure how to fix it, a 5+++ against any mortal wound just might be too good...but I'm not sure. Even if we only get a 6+++ against mortals, it has to be in all phases, not only the psychic phase. On the other hand I fell it has to be said that mortal wounds being a counter to custodes is not by itself a bad thing. We can't be amazing against everything, but it must not be oppressive against us, so if the damage and mortal wound creep continues and most armies can dish out a bunch of mortal wounds each turn, then imo a general 5+++ against mortals for our guys is warranted.
I advocated for multiple weapon profiles for a long time, but I am not very optimistic, that we will actually get them. It would be a very nice design space though, to show that our guys are martial paragons.
And yeah, sisters need to bring more to the table, I'm not sure an invuln would do the trick, but I'm definitely not against it.....like you said, give them a 5++ when they are within 6" of an adeptus custodes unit or something. Would be a nice rule representation of the talons fighting alongside each other.
Edit: maybe also give custodes a benefit when being within 6" of a sisters unit. Idk, like improving their feelnopain against mortal wounds or something.
I mean, incubi trash custodes units so hard it isn't even really funny, so multiweapon profiles might be a thing.
-1D would have been pretty obvious, but DG already has it. Permanent transhuman is another possibility, but DA has that.
One interesting thing you could do that would be a bit different is: each time a custodes unit takes damage per phase, the first point of damage (including MWs) taken per model is entirely ignored, absorbed by the armor and/or shrugged off by the Custodian's incredible physiology. This would make custodes very resilient to chip damage, but comparatively vulnerable to massed damage, which feels like it matches the lore and creates interesting incentives. It's a little clunky, but not that clunky, since you have to keep assigning hits till the end of the phase on the same model till it's dead, so it's unlikely to be difficult to remember whether a given model has already taken a point of damage or not.
yukishiro1 wrote: -1D would have been pretty obvious, but DG already has it. Permanent transhuman is another possibility, but DA has that.
One interesting thing you could do that would be a bit different is: each time a custodes unit takes damage per phase, the first point of damage (including MWs) taken per model is entirely ignored, absorbed by the armor and/or shrugged off by the Custodian's incredible physiology. This would make custodes very resilient to chip damage, but comparatively vulnerable to massed damage, which feels like it matches the lore and creates interesting incentives. It's a little clunky, but not that clunky, since you have to keep assigning hits till the end of the phase on the same model till it's dead, so it's unlikely to be difficult to remember whether a given model has already taken a point of damage or not.
So that ignored dmg is not one per phase and entire unit, but one per model in the unit? I like that idea in general, but it is a bit clunky..aybe too clunky for gw to go for thst
I hate to say this, but aside from sweeping attack profiles, and extra wounds, I don't really expect much. Although I do like the thread in the proposed rules, where someone suggested a pre-game strat to make sisters troops and give them Obsec and an invuln.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I hate to say this, but aside from sweeping attack profiles, and extra wounds, I don't really expect much. Although I do like the thread in the proposed rules, where someone suggested a pre-game strat to make sisters troops and give them Obsec and an invuln.
Eh, it's all speculation and wishlisting at this point. I think GW will throw us a bone.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I hate to say this, but aside from sweeping attack profiles, and extra wounds, I don't really expect much. Although I do like the thread in the proposed rules, where someone suggested a pre-game strat to make sisters troops and give them Obsec and an invuln.
Eh, it's all speculation and wishlisting at this point. I think GW will throw us a bone.
eventually, but i dont expect to get a new codex this year, frankly, even if their are no more holdups.
I don't see how we are supposed to even have a fun game, the way Deldar are shaping up. They carve through us like butter, and that's not "Fezzik being hyperbolic" it's kinda hilarious.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I don't see how we are supposed to even have a fun game, the way Deldar are shaping up. They carve through us like butter, and that's not "Fezzik being hyperbolic" it's kinda hilarious.
Dark Eldar are a big problem for us, absolutely. Maybe we can take solace in the fact that they carve through everyone else also....shared suffering and all that
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I don't see how we are supposed to even have a fun game, the way Deldar are shaping up. They carve through us like butter, and that's not "Fezzik being hyperbolic" it's kinda hilarious.
That's not a Custodes problem though, that's a "GW accidentally knocking the whole container of power creep into one army" problem and it's affecting everyone: everyone is getting gak on by DEldar. I imagine that with the massive community backlash DEldar will get nerf hammered.
Then we can go back to grumbling about our usual gripes.
I honestly wonder if giving spears or Axes better shooting wouldn't be amiss. Making them all assault 4, and pistol 3 in the case of swords. I also think we can make Miser's a bit more attractive by making them ignore invuln saves.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I honestly wonder if giving spears or Axes better shooting wouldn't be amiss. Making them all assault 4, and pistol 3 in the case of swords. I also think we can make Miser's a bit more attractive by making them ignore invuln saves.
I agree with increasing the shooting profiles. I like Swords at pistol3, but I think I'd prefer spears to be Rapid Fire 2, just to keep them from OP levels.
I mean, if they keep their Relic Bolter damage, that's still 8 potential wounds for a target? Terminators with spears would be able to 1 round most T4 characters without even trying.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I mean, if they keep their Relic Bolter damage, that's still 8 potential wounds for a target? Terminators with spears would be able to 1 round most T4 characters without even trying.
Considering a certain codex has a 65 point character that will 1 round almost anything in any army, meh?
I'd say Spears Axes go to 24" Rapid Fire 2, or Assault 3, AP-1, d2 and call it a day.
I mean, if we go by that metric, we will all end up broken. We can't base ourselves off one broken faction. It's the same with the Knights of 8th. Everything became (Must be able to kill a knight in one turn) or else it was crap. I'm fine with Assault bolters, or better yet, double shooting if the unit remains stationairy. Make it Assault 3 or assault 6 if not moving during the entire turn.
So yeah, the Dallas Open proved without a doubt the Drukari problem.
I faced John Lennon in round 4 and there was litterally nothing i could have done to win that game except for rolling only 5's and 6's the whole time.
I actually held him to 10 primary and 4 data intercept for the first 2 turns of the game.
Then he went super saiyan and score 57 points on turns 3 and 4 by basically tabling me and litterally charging from his deployment zone to my backfield objectives in said 2 turns, on foot, because i had destroyed or crippled all his raiders.
Our faction cannot beat them if they are piloted by a competent player. I find that pretty sickinging as far as a competitive player.
There are pretty much only 3-5 lists that have the edge up on Drukari, and most of those are countered out by marines or chaos (so unlikely to knock out stuff on top tables unless lucky with matchups).
We'll see if anything happens, but atm im just glad i went 5/1/2 and got a good chunk of points for faction.
This is exactly why I want to buff bikes. I feel like a all Bike list is the perfect foil to so much of what Drukhari are. Super fast, hard hitting Elite units zooming all over. I was thinking, what about a 2cp strat to allow character targeting for any unit for an entire round?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: This is exactly why I want to buff bikes. I feel like a all Bike list is the perfect foil to so much of what Drukhari are. Super fast, hard hitting Elite units zooming all over. I was thinking, what about a 2cp strat to allow character targeting for any unit for an entire round?
