FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: That makes no sense, that an axe is worse at chopping through armor than a sword. I'd say reverse all those APs and you have it.
An axe IS worse then chopping through armor then a spear or sword. Light/Medium armor like a Brigandine or Leather armor an axe is better...but this is 40k with pretty much super plate armor on everyone/thing. A sword would be easier to maneuver to get at the key open points in the armor. An axe? It would do more damage if it hit but against plate its no better then a sword. Sword is just smaller and can get in the open spots easier...thats it. Hell a Dagger(misercordia) would be more useful then either TECHNICALLY speaking. While Halberds/Spears are pretty much superior to swords in everyway i'd say S&B vs Halberd in open melee both plate wearers that S&B is gonna take it.
It's always good to apply a bit of 40k pseudoscience when trying to justify stats on weapons, especially melee weapons. Makes it easier.
I wouldn't compare them to their real life equivalents, but more take into consideration things like the disruption field emitted by the weapon, and how that energy field is tuned to perform.
EG: Axe vs Spear. A nicely pointed weapon might be well suited to piercing its way through the armor so they tune the energy field to soften the target as much as possible. An axe, which crushes it's way through a target, might be able to achieve the same penetration with an appropriately tuned disruption field, but just like Thunder hammers they tend to have a disruption field tuned such that most of the energy is released as a shockwave on impact at the expense of armor penetration, and it does it's damage that way(hence higher strength). Think gravity hammer from Halo.
The larger the weapon, the bigger the field generator which can fit inside, hence the poor strength and damage of the Misericordia.
All power weapons technically disrupts matter on a molecular level, I think, so the reality is that their differences would probably be cosmetic only. GW wants them to be different though so gotta do something.
Solarite power gauntlets were made back before the crusade era and should be considered the Real Powerfist. The mass produced ones used by the rest of the imperium are a bit cheaper and not quite as effective thus only ap-3.
The -1 to hit comes from the skill and size of the user more than the equipment.
They are large and ponderous hands, about 5x the size of a normal fist. Unless your a genius, you wouldnt be able to manipulate it as well as your own natural hands. The custodes are, however, in fact quite brilliant and can use them at no penalty.
Again.
The only change that needs to be made to axes is simply making them flat 3 damage. At that point, they are a thunder hammer, without the -1 to hit, which we already have precendent for based on the power gauntlets, which would offer better ap, whereas the axes deal 3 vs 2 damage.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I was talking more about the ability to penetrate tank armor by casting "FIST"
has access to the suits main power supply and thus has more power behind it than the various power weapons do
alternatively: a Dark Age of techo-wizard did it.
edit: and people punching though tanks is Cool, so it gets a pass under that as well.
I wish I could exhalt this post more. Thank you!
But honestly, Axes need to be different than spears, swords, and lances. It's kind of ridiculous. Make axes a flat 4. Make fists 3, spears 2, and swords d3.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I was talking more about the ability to penetrate tank armor by casting "FIST"
has access to the suits main power supply and thus has more power behind it than the various power weapons do
alternatively: a Dark Age of techo-wizard did it.
edit: and people punching though tanks is Cool, so it gets a pass under that as well.
I wish I could exhalt this post more. Thank you!
But honestly, Axes need to be different than spears, swords, and lances. It's kind of ridiculous. Make axes a flat 4. Make fists 3, spears 2, and swords d3.
As much as I love to wreck face with allarus termis, flat 4 damage on the axes is a bit excessive. I really think that would push them over the top.
The swords are directly not competing with the spear, axe because you take them with the shield. I think the axes should be our thunderhammer equivalent.
What do you guys think about venatari? I think they are at least as good as bikes with salvo launchers .
the pistol and buckler version is really tempting
pros:
40 points less. 275 points gives you 5 Venatari and 285 points gives you 3 bikes
they are infantry
you can double shoot them with the strat
pistols can be used in melee
they are tougher than bikes point for point against most weapons
much better shooting against primaris and gravis
con:
2" less movement and no auto 6" advance
not good in melee compared to bikes.
less effective against t8 vehilcles.
nordsturmking wrote: The swords are directly not competing with the spear, axe because you take them with the shield. I think the axes should be our thunderhammer equivalent.
What do you guys think about venatari? I think they are at least as good as bikes with salvo launchers .
the pistol and buckler version is really tempting
pros:
40 points less. 275 points gives you 5 Venatari and 285 points gives you 3 bikes
they are infantry
you can double shoot them with the strat
pistols can be used in melee
they are tougher than bikes point for point against most weapons
much better shooting against primaris and gravis
con:
2" less movement and no auto 6" advance
not good in melee compared to bikes.
less effective against t8 vehilcles.
I really, really like the venarari. I played a squad of 3 with pistols multiple times and they did amazing work against space marines with the superior firing patterns stratagem. And that was before the FW update, now they are even better. Bikes have long been considered our best overall unit and to some extent this still might be true, but I think the venatari offer a very tempting alternate fast attack slot.
I may be alone in this, but I personally also really like the updated venatari lances. They offer some pretty decent melee potential with 4 attacks each at S6 AP-3 and flat 2 dmg.....maybe, just maybe a mixed squad of venatari could be worth for the flexibility of having both really good shooting and melee.
I feel the venatari in general are one of the biggest winners of the FW update.
My only problem with them over bikes is they don't have the stratagem support that bikes do. Stooping dive is one of the best strats in the game, and their special relic is amazing on a SC biker with Blood Games. Also, I am betting Vens don't get core, so there go the re-rolls. Hurricane Bolters are just too good, and the S6 charging with re-rolls to wound is amazing. I will really have to see some amazing bat reps to swing me over from bikes.
@Fezzik, why are you like this???? Venatari have Core (from the leaks/youtube). And there's nothing that says you can't support them with a bike captain, those buff all Custodes not just bikes.
Personally I think a decent number of people would choose the 1CP shoot twice over the 3 CP stooping dive. But I do think there's room for both. I'm personally looking at the most CP-efficient way to get both Agamatus bikes and Venatari in my list...Been liking 2 bike squads for the objectives rush but VenBoys are looking really tasty now.
My crazy idea is the adrathic destructor on aquilons...most of the time the bolter is better BUT if you're willing to spend 85 ppm it becomes an intriguing way to deal with Gravis marines on the drop...10 shots from a 5-man unit kills 4-6 eradicators. I think the Achilles is probably the better "dmg 3 gunslinger", but it was a random thought I had.
My crazy idea is the adrathic destructor on aquilons...most of the time the bolter is better BUT if you're willing to spend 85 ppm it becomes an intriguing way to deal with Gravis marines on the drop...10 shots from a 5-man unit kills 4-6 eradicators. I think the Achilles is probably the better "dmg 3 gunslinger", but it was a random thought I had.
I don't think its crazy at all. If your Venatari are going to be the ones using SFP anyway then the Adrathic is more effective against nearly everything that isn't chaff infantry, and at assault 18 inches which is a consideration if you start them on the board and advance. With all the access to ignore -1 (or equivalent) which so many armies seem to be getting you avoid that nasty pitfall too.
I'm painting and magnetizing mine up now. Don't own Venatari but I often find myself giving SFP to the Allarus unit anyway, to combo with the character sniping strat. The cost of 50-60 points pays for itself in extra dead Gravis marines quickly enough.
That list looks really tight, you've got all your bases covered and a lot of big scaries to intimidate/bully. Why sisters though? I'd rather take two squads of gun sisters than 1 squad and an assassin. Better cost for the same thing. Also, a Culexus almost never earns it's points back, it really sucks in combat unless it's against psyker, and it's gun is pretty meh. Just grab a second sisters squad and make one slightly large to offset the cost.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: That list looks really tight, you've got all your bases covered and a lot of big scaries to intimidate/bully. Why sisters though? I'd rather take two squads of gun sisters than 1 squad and an assassin. Better cost for the same thing. Also, a Culexus almost never earns it's points back, it really sucks in combat unless it's against psyker, and it's gun is pretty meh. Just grab a second sisters squad and make one slightly large to offset the cost.
Culexus has AoE fight last strat. Something to consider
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: That list looks really tight, you've got all your bases covered and a lot of big scaries to intimidate/bully. Why sisters though? I'd rather take two squads of gun sisters than 1 squad and an assassin. Better cost for the same thing. Also, a Culexus almost never earns it's points back, it really sucks in combat unless it's against psyker, and it's gun is pretty meh. Just grab a second sisters squad and make one slightly large to offset the cost.
Culexus has AoE fight last strat. Something to consider
yes, he is there for two reasons, and thats at least half of it
but yes i am considering dropping it... for more context here are the factions ill be facing, with X marking likely to bring psykers:
Salamanders
Craftworld Eldar X
Chaos Knights
Necrons
Thousand Sons X
Ultramarines X (know tigurius coming)
Orks X
Drukhari
Death Guard X
Just for my own skill boost, what psykerness do DG bring that I need to be worried about as a Custodes? They don't bring the Smite Spam that other legions do, but if they Bring Morty I guess that's pretty ugly.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Just for my own skill boost, what psykerness do DG bring that I need to be worried about as a Custodes? They don't bring the Smite Spam that other legions do, but if they Bring Morty I guess that's pretty ugly.
Most of Morty's MW aren't psychic so it won't help there. Sadly, DG's psychic is almost exclusively buffs and heals which they will safely cast from FAR outside your deny ranges, stratagem ranges and penalty auras.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Just for my own skill boost, what psykerness do DG bring that I need to be worried about as a Custodes? They don't bring the Smite Spam that other legions do, but if they Bring Morty I guess that's pretty ugly.
Most of Morty's MW aren't psychic so it won't help there. Sadly, DG's psychic is almost exclusively buffs and heals which they will safely cast from FAR outside your deny ranges, stratagem ranges and penalty auras.
Will they in the mid-late game, given that DG is a mid-range army and me as stodes will be pushing hard to close the distance on all fronts?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Just for my own skill boost, what psykerness do DG bring that I need to be worried about as a Custodes? They don't bring the Smite Spam that other legions do, but if they Bring Morty I guess that's pretty ugly.
Most of Morty's MW aren't psychic so it won't help there. Sadly, DG's psychic is almost exclusively buffs and heals which they will safely cast from FAR outside your deny ranges, stratagem ranges and penalty auras.
Will they in the mid-late game, given that DG is a mid-range army and me as stodes will be pushing hard to close the distance on all fronts?
Not really. DG buffs have a range of about 18"-24" (so the psyker can be 18" BEHIND the unit it is buffing, meaning up to 36" away from your penalty aura) and their buffs don't usually require line of sight. They're more than capable of chilling behind LoS blocking terrain and just tossing buffs on mid-field units from their own deployment zone.
Buff based psyker armies, like DG and Craftworld, are virtually impossible to stop in the psychic phase unless you're deep striking Deny the Witch up there (like a terminator Inquisitor or Librarian). Most of our anti-psyker stuff is balanced around stopping Smite spam and other MW spam, which is really just GK and Thousand Sons (and Thousand Sons get an extra +6" range so for the first round or 2 they can dance outside of deny/strat/aura range).
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Just for my own skill boost, what psykerness do DG bring that I need to be worried about as a Custodes? They don't bring the Smite Spam that other legions do, but if they Bring Morty I guess that's pretty ugly.
Most of Morty's MW aren't psychic so it won't help there. Sadly, DG's psychic is almost exclusively buffs and heals which they will safely cast from FAR outside your deny ranges, stratagem ranges and penalty auras.
Will they in the mid-late game, given that DG is a mid-range army and me as stodes will be pushing hard to close the distance on all fronts?
Not really. DG buffs have a range of about 18"-24" (so the psyker can be 18" BEHIND the unit it is buffing, meaning up to 36" away from your penalty aura) and their buffs don't usually require line of sight. They're more than capable of chilling behind LoS blocking terrain and just tossing buffs on mid-field units from their own deployment zone.
Buff based psyker armies, like DG and Craftworld, are virtually impossible to stop in the psychic phase unless you're deep striking Deny the Witch up there (like a terminator Inquisitor or Librarian). Most of our anti-psyker stuff is balanced around stopping Smite spam and other MW spam, which is really just GK and Thousand Sons (and Thousand Sons get an extra +6" range so for the first round or 2 they can dance outside of deny/strat/aura range).
Very strong arguments, but respectfully I'm not entirely convinced yet:
1) I'm deep striking the Culexus up there, and aim to be forward from the get-go, with 2 dawneagles to clear. Turn one I can't do anything - that's the scenario in most cases I feel Culexus or not - but turn 2 I've got both the custodes deny in whatever range I want, and a deep striking Culexus. Your thoughts?
2) If I drop the Culexus, what should I replace it with? More sisters, as Fezzik suggests?
I might also add the Culexus is pretty easy to nuke down with massed shooting. Or a single lucky blast from a heavy flamer. Or any flamer for that matter. Hes only a T3 character with 5 wounds. Even with the Ws/BS 6+ debuff to attacking enemies, it's not that hard to counter. Every time I've taken one they've died rather quickly. Once to a very lucky tank shot, once to massed auto-cannon fire, and once to a Bale Flamer. He's not immune. If you are DSing him in on turn 2, your opponent will know it's coming. It's also very hard for him to earn points back. Also, he doesn't stop all Psyker casting, he just makes it harder.
To give you some perspective, Magnus fighting his "weight" in Culexi (about 4.88) of them, having brought Warptime, Weaver of Fates, and Prescience, even with the Culexi debuffing him and shutting down his Smite, will kill the Culexi faster than they can kill him
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I might also add the Culexus is pretty easy to nuke down with massed shooting. Or a single lucky blast from a heavy flamer. Or any flamer for that matter. Hes only a T3 character with 5 wounds. Even with the Ws/BS 6+ debuff to attacking enemies, it's not that hard to counter. Every time I've taken one they've died rather quickly. Once to a very lucky tank shot, once to massed auto-cannon fire, and once to a Bale Flamer. He's not immune. If you are DSing him in on turn 2, your opponent will know it's coming. It's also very hard for him to earn points back. Also, he doesn't stop all Psyker casting, he just makes it harder.
To give you some perspective, Magnus fighting his "weight" in Culexi (about 4.88) of them, having brought Warptime, Weaver of Fates, and Prescience, even with the Culexi debuffing him and shutting down his Smite, will kill the Culexi faster than they can kill him
Aren't they T4?
And honestly, saying "Magnus can kill them!" ain't exactly a big knock against them. They're mezzers, not killers.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Just for my own skill boost, what psykerness do DG bring that I need to be worried about as a Custodes? They don't bring the Smite Spam that other legions do, but if they Bring Morty I guess that's pretty ugly.
Most of Morty's MW aren't psychic so it won't help there. Sadly, DG's psychic is almost exclusively buffs and heals which they will safely cast from FAR outside your deny ranges, stratagem ranges and penalty auras.
Will they in the mid-late game, given that DG is a mid-range army and me as stodes will be pushing hard to close the distance on all fronts?
Not really. DG buffs have a range of about 18"-24" (so the psyker can be 18" BEHIND the unit it is buffing, meaning up to 36" away from your penalty aura) and their buffs don't usually require line of sight. They're more than capable of chilling behind LoS blocking terrain and just tossing buffs on mid-field units from their own deployment zone.
Buff based psyker armies, like DG and Craftworld, are virtually impossible to stop in the psychic phase unless you're deep striking Deny the Witch up there (like a terminator Inquisitor or Librarian). Most of our anti-psyker stuff is balanced around stopping Smite spam and other MW spam, which is really just GK and Thousand Sons (and Thousand Sons get an extra +6" range so for the first round or 2 they can dance outside of deny/strat/aura range).
Very strong arguments, but respectfully I'm not entirely convinced yet:
1) I'm deep striking the Culexus up there, and aim to be forward from the get-go, with 2 dawneagles to clear. Turn one I can't do anything - that's the scenario in most cases I feel Culexus or not - but turn 2 I've got both the custodes deny in whatever range I want, and a deep striking Culexus. Your thoughts?
2) If I drop the Culexus, what should I replace it with? More sisters, as Fezzik suggests?
Keep in mind, I'm basing this on the only really competitive DG build I've heard of and seen (TJ Lanigan's Nurgling spam):
The Death Guard player will likely have 3 Plagueburst Crawlers. The flamers on those will just destroy the Culexus almost immediately. If not them, he'll have between 1 and 3 Blightspawns (also flamers, but they're flat 3 damage). Both sets of auto-hitting flamers will wound a T4 Culexus on 3's and one of them can get a solid range boost from a stratagem. That Culexus is gonna be barbequed unless he's DS'ing in with bodyguards.
The amount of Nurglings (usually 46+) should push you out pretty far, but yeah, DS'ing in Custodes will absolutely help you get their denials in range faster. Consider the +1 denial warlord trait.
I would not drop the Culexus. He's good and you'll get good use out of him in many matches. Just don't expect him to be stopping lots of psychic powers against Death Guard. One thing it CAN help with Death Guard is the Blightspawn's own fight last aura (though remember, this only effects your units when they CHARGE). It can make his Plague Marine/Terminator plob very hesitant to move into you (and that's a GOOD thing because the flails WILL chew through even Custodes).
Looks like the Battlescribe update for the Imperial Armor Compendium is out, it has all of our stuff as far as I can see.
Played a game against Salamanders yesterday, ended up losing though if I had played smarter (aka remember to score Deploy Scramblers for one) I would have had it. Space Marines are broken and an example of hideous game design lol. It was the last ride of my Orion+unleashed lions in their deployment zone list.
I had Agamatus bikes, Venetari, and Sagittarum in the list, some takeaways:
Sag Guard are really, really good. They have both anti-marine AND anti-gravis profiles on their guns, and 36" is a long distance on the new board size, and that's before you factor in their 6" move and advance. Great backfield objective holders since they can contribute to the fight. Obviously a little less durable that their shielded friends but being able to participate in the game is a worthwhile tradeoff for my list.
I think the 5-man Venetari is going to replace a bike squad in my list. These guys are made to kill marines. I used the pistols and was happy.
Agamatus Bikes have alot of potential, but I think I'm still trying to figure out the best way to use them. One of my problems has been I tend to push my bikes too far forward, which means they get tied up in combat...which is fine, except that then they cant shoot and no one charges them with stuff that either can't survive or can't kill them. I actually think that simply going vertical (ie on top of buildings, etc) to shoot might be the place for them, swooping down to charge targets of opportunity. I used the pulse lasers, I'm not sure if the other weapons are worth it.
Overall, I'm looking to pivot a bigger chunk of my list to kill Gravis marines. We actually have a decent number of options with all the flat-3 weapons on the FW side, and since we have flat 2 or D3 damage in CC on almost everything we don't give up alot of efficiency against 2 wound models; at least not any you cant cover with a squad of Venetari or a pair of accelerator autocannons. I'llbe exploring that over the next couple weeks, have 2 RTTs next weekend.
Yeah no complaints from the forgeworld update (other than the nerf on the tanks with no points drop).
The new ares has basically doubled down on it as a board control option who can occasionally get lucky and take out some key targets.
It's always been good at blocking a chunk of the table, but now the new bomb is great at forcing your opponent to spread out if they dont wanna eat mortal wounds every turn.
Dread host got some life back with the fist telemon dropping in points.
Any list could benefit from a galatus now. Very nice with 8-10 attacks and no bracketing now. It costs 1 point cheaper than a guard squad (with one shield) now too.
Sag guard are right where they need to be.
They just missed the oppertunity to bring lastrum bolt cannon up to D2 (since its an actual heavy bolter?).
eh, no. That's not what the article said, and there's a solid chance that some of that is a general tailoring against the SM meta. There's probably also a discussion that needs to happen within the 40K community about what "S-tier" means (hint: it's not "wins more than 50% of matches")
The 40K Stats "TIWP" is probably more productive for us...everything Falcon has been saying is that space marines are our hard counter (based on the data so far), and so we should be more or less tailoring against them...in other words, we may have a high win percentage but are failing to follow through with a tournament win. So we need to find out a way to beat marines consistently, which is probably a more productive topic for this thread than wishlisting for a new codex.
we should be more or less tailoring against them..
Uh, I mean this is obvious right? If everyone's playing marines, you should be tailoring against marines.
Fact is, Custodes are a top-tier faction relative to the post-codex meta. And SM are currently a mid-tier faction relative to the post-codex meta. No point comparing a faction's strength to any other meta, unless you are talking about casual play.
we should be more or less tailoring against them..
Uh, I mean this is obvious right? If everyone's playing marines, you should be tailoring against marines.
Fact is, Custodes are a top-tier faction relative to the post-codex meta. And SM are currently a mid-tier faction relative to the post-codex meta. No point comparing a faction's strength to any other meta, unless you are talking about casual play.
Are they? Because mirror matches are gonna drag the SM win-rate towards 50%.
I think looking at top placing results will tell a more accurate story.
artific3r wrote: If SM mirror matches are dragging them toward 50 and Custodes toward 57, which faction do you think is stronger, relative to the meta?
Custodes represent less than half the playerbase of Marines, as shown on that image shared.
And mirror matches ALWAYS drag towards 50. Always. That's how it works.
we should be more or less tailoring against them..
Uh, I mean this is obvious right? If everyone's playing marines, you should be tailoring against marines.
Fact is, Custodes are a top-tier faction relative to the post-codex meta. And SM are currently a mid-tier faction relative to the post-codex meta. No point comparing a faction's strength to any other meta, unless you are talking about casual play.
Marines are mid tier? In the last 20 tournaments listed on 40kstat.com codex marines made up 34% of the top 4 placings.
Again, this is jumping the shark. To say that somehow the entire Meta chasing world MISSED that Custodes were S-tier (What the hell does that even mean?)
And after just a few months, Marines (General) are somehow mid tier, is missing the forest thru the trees in the worst way.
Properly played and meta'd to the brim, Salamanders are one the the most powerful forces in the game.
It's like saying as long as you don't count Eraditcators or Heavy Intercessors, Custodes are the best. Here's a quick clue, we're not, and we don't want to be. Nerfs come to those at the top, and we do not want to get any nerfs. I am really not sure where you validate your claim in any of your data. It's just a bunch of raw data. As my old CO used to say, So what's the skinny? Extrapolate your data and show how it proves your claim that Marines are bad and Custodes are the tatas.
Since we're once again getting sidetracked from actual tactics discussion I'll point out that Custodes are winning games but not tournaments...40kStats doesn't have their graphs up past second week of October but based on the few podcast appearances they've done that seems to be the case, and the issue seems to be marine matches. Space Marines aren't an auto-win, and with a massive player base they will definitely have poor showings bringing down their overall win rate but are still winning and top 4-ing tournaments. There's also a whole slew of supplements coming out over the next couple months which will shake stuff up. So again, I'll ask for an actual tactics discussion instead of the past 2 pages of wishlisting and the previous page of global meta discussion. Please.
As a sidenote for people who would rather speculate and debate the meta instead of play games or discuss tactics, here's the Top 4s from GTs on 40k stats: https://www.40kstats.com/top-4s
I really like the Terminator captain with the admonimortis and all-seeing annihilator. Exploding 6s are imo extremely valuable for us because all of our attacks in melee are high quality. I think he especially goes well when he gives the exploding 6s to a Galatus dread with the eternal penitent strat. 7 attacks minimum with additional exploding 6s and flat 3dmg makes this guy walk through almost any elite infantry and many lighter vehicles.
I also gave two lances to my big venatari squad. I just want to try them out and that is also how I modeled them.
The telemon is meant to walk up and bully the midfield along with Trajann and the vexilla until the terminators come in. Saggitarum and guard squads are there to hold objectives primarily and be hard to shift (more shields would be better but I couldn't fit them).
@Tiberias I think the list is fine, the only thing I’d recommend is dropping you Venetari down to 5 models for coherency purposes unless you’re comfortable moving so they maintain it. If you mess up coherency it sucks to lose 55 pt models. With the extra points you could add another Sag guard to the squad or give them misericordias and more shields for the guard.
Is there any argument for making the Guardians just all shield/sword?
I don't see the down side if they are just squatting on objectives and camping out. They can withstand most shooting, and while they can't be shooting back, they really shouldn't be. So where is the major issue with just going all shields? I'm not seeing the point of the 1shield/2 spears anymore.
greyknight12 wrote:@Tiberias I think the list is fine, the only thing I’d recommend is dropping you Venetari down to 5 models for coherency purposes unless you’re comfortable moving so they maintain it. If you mess up coherency it sucks to lose 55 pt models. With the extra points you could add another Sag guard to the squad or give them misericordias and more shields for the guard.
I actually thought about that, and you are right. Probably best to drop one venatari and add more shields.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:Is there any argument for making the Guardians just all shield/sword?
I don't see the down side if they are just squatting on objectives and camping out. They can withstand most shooting, and while they can't be shooting back, they really shouldn't be. So where is the major issue with just going all shields? I'm not seeing the point of the 1shield/2 spears anymore.
The point was that I couldn't fit more shields in the original list. Just using shield guard is still the way to go.
Here's the updated list....misericordias for everyone! One more thing...me raving about the Galatus being good in general, but especially when buffed by all-seeing annihilatior is mostly because I really like the Galatus. I stand by my assessment that it is really good, but I think it's fair to say that the achillus would probably provide better overall value.
All-seeing anihilator is great, but hard to take superior creation off your termy captain. What i do is take a terminator vexhilla with it and the +1 attack banner for maximum buffage.
Depending on who im up against, i'll just advance him up the middle with either my telemon or a guard squad. Turn 2 my aquillon can drop in wherever need be.
Double caladius with autocannons is my shooty component. Them and trajann still hold my backfield and it'll remain that way until the core nerfs come into play.
My admonitoris captain drops in wherever necessary to score me points.
Hey all I have a question, are sisters of silence worth it in a custodes army? Also those two special characters I forgot what they are called just released.
I'm thinking of adding them cause I love the models but how are they all rules wise in your opinions?
They are great harassing units, or to maybe steal an objective for a turn, but they generally don't earn their points back. A few people at Goonhammer are praying for an excuse to run them, but you are generally better off taking elites from Custodes, and dropping a Culexus instead.
ballzonya wrote: Hey all I have a question, are sisters of silence worth it in a custodes army? Also those two special characters I forgot what they are called just released.
I'm thinking of adding them cause I love the models but how are they all rules wise in your opinions?
Sisters aura range is just too small and their bodies too weak. They'll get killed by ranged before they get far enough up the board to do much (and buff casters can basically ignore them forever).
Valerian and Aleya are the characters. Aleya is amazing because she has character protection to let her huddle with Custodes and get close enough for her aura (and the Sisters denial stratagem) to actually work. Valerian is overpriced and basically junk. Unfortunately, the Valerian tax basically makes Aleya non-competitive (since you have to take them together).
ballzonya wrote: That's a shame! Do you find sisters of Battle make better Allies on the board? I really like the sisters of silence models too.
The models are cool. Sisters of Battle are good allies but mostly for their ranged anti-tank. A Spearhead of 3 Exorcists, an Imagifier and a Cannoness (all Valorous Heart so you ignore AP-1 and AP-2) is pretty sweet.
ballzonya wrote: Hey all I have a question, are sisters of silence worth it in a custodes army? Also those two special characters I forgot what they are called just released.
I'm thinking of adding them cause I love the models but how are they all rules wise in your opinions?
They're cheap button boopers.
That's all.
They fit in a detachment without costing CP and deploy scramblers. This is the job they are good for.
It's a pretty useful job all told, but it's an utterly unexciting one.
So how do you suggest handling pysker-heavy armies? I am just moving to Custodes (from Orks!), and had my butt handed to me by Thousand Sons with unstoppable casts. He had a squad of 10 termies with a 3+ invuln that he could move anywhere.
Honestly curious. Thx.
Yeah, not gonna lie, Custodes vs. any heavy Psyker army is a bit hard right now. Everything we have is useless to stop them casting, and unless we go first, we usually can loose without much effort. The biggest strength we have is either Character targeting assasination through Culexus, Bolter SoS, or Terminators. Terminators can effectively drop most Characters if they get within range, usually turn 2. Allarus can do some nasty work against Arhiman and other HQ casters, but you will need some big guns to take down the Scarab Terminators.
Goreshrek wrote: So how do you suggest handling pysker-heavy armies? I am just moving to Custodes (from Orks!), and had my butt handed to me by Thousand Sons with unstoppable casts. He had a squad of 10 termies with a 3+ invuln that he could move anywhere.
Honestly curious. Thx.
There are 2 options for dealing with buffed units, both variants of “kill them”:
Snipers, either Allarus or allies to target their casters.
Overwhelming death...Aquillons, triple caladius/telemon, etc. Have so many high quality attacks it doesn’t matter how buffed they are.
Another thing to remember is that usually all the buffs go on one thing. If you can afford to ignore that thing or slow it down (#tanglefoot) you can kill the other stuff in their list and wait for the buffs to fail and pounce. We have a lot of tough stuff, for example the once-dreaded possessed bomb only hits at AP-2 which means terminators tie it down and laugh at it for one CP a turn.
Thanks for the responses.
I took Slay the Witch, never got near a caster - they just hid behind the rest of the army.
My list was 'what I have assembled and started painting', so the terminators are still shrink-wrapped. Very hard to find Custodes anywhere.
People seem down on SoS, though.
Goreshrek wrote: So how do you suggest handling pysker-heavy armies? I am just moving to Custodes (from Orks!), and had my butt handed to me by Thousand Sons with unstoppable casts. He had a squad of 10 termies with a 3+ invuln that he could move anywhere.
Honestly curious. Thx.
What else did he have in his list?
Custodes have 3 options for deny the witch. 2 strats(1 from war of the spider) and a warlord trait.
There are options yes, but against an army that can do degrading smites 6 times a turn, we don't really have a good option, unless we take a psyker of our own, and they happen to be within 18 inches. I have seen Bike captains with the deny trait used well but even that is a bandaid on a gaping chest wound.
Here's a great breakdown of Custodes shield spam going 4-1 at WATC last weekend. The list absolutely destroyed every single SM list it encountered and only lost against Slaanesh daemons. The loss isn't a surprise since Slaanesh is the top army at the moment and naturally comes with absurd melee output to win the objective game against Custodes.
Goreshrek wrote: So how do you suggest handling pysker-heavy armies? I am just moving to Custodes (from Orks!), and had my butt handed to me by Thousand Sons with unstoppable casts. He had a squad of 10 termies with a 3+ invuln that he could move anywhere.
Honestly curious. Thx.
What else did he have in his list?
Custodes have 3 options for deny the witch. 2 strats(1 from war of the spider) and a warlord trait.
You can take an Inquisitor too for some extra denies! Hector Rex still survives and Kyria Draxus/Greyfax are good too!
I will second the calls to counter psyker spam armies via Vexilla Teleport Homer + Allarus Bomb + Superior Firing Patterns (Double Rapid Fire Profile) + Blood Games Veterans. (6s Auto-Wound)
If you have Trajann, the teleport homer can at least be free with the moment shackle. But that much firepower will dumpster 2 characters, before you have an easy charge on the screen to clear that out too.
That all Shields list has a major problem. Massed high d fires/MWs. A Smite List would take it apart. As was shown. I really wonder how it's taken until now until someone had the stones to throw that list into a tournament, and even more surprising how no one knew what to do against it. Methinks the skill level in the player base of most tournaments right now isn't optimal.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: That all Shields list has a major problem. Massed high d fires/MWs. A Smite List would take it apart. As was shown. I really wonder how it's taken until now until someone had the stones to throw that list into a tournament, and even more surprising how no one knew what to do against it. Methinks the skill level in the player base of most tournaments right now isn't optimal.
Shield lists have been played, the best custodes player at LVO 2020 was one of them. I think most people don't play it because it is boring as feth.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: That all Shields list has a major problem. Massed high d fires/MWs. A Smite List would take it apart. As was shown. I really wonder how it's taken until now until someone had the stones to throw that list into a tournament, and even more surprising how no one knew what to do against it. Methinks the skill level in the player base of most tournaments right now isn't optimal.
Shield lists have been played, the best custodes player at LVO 2020 was one of them. I think most people don't play it because it is boring as feth.
This is the major hurdle for it to me as well. Fall back every Move. Just stand and survive
Thanks again. Since I am still building my army, another related question: How many Allarus do you consider 'a bomb'. I have acquired 1 box, the only one within an hours drive of my home, only because the GW store manager held it for me. So that is 3 Allarus. Seems a pretty small bomb. The custodians units I had were too small to do much damage.
Goreshrek wrote: Thanks again. Since I am still building my army, another related question: How many Allarus do you consider 'a bomb'. I have acquired 1 box, the only one within an hours drive of my home, only because the GW store manager held it for me. So that is 3 Allarus. Seems a pretty small bomb. The custodians units I had were too small to do much damage.
A minimum bomb should be 5, but ideally you're looking at 8-10 if you want it to be the center-piece force of your army plan. Also keep in mind, Allarus can come in squads of 10, but Aquillons are capped at 6 in case you consider those.
Yeah your decision between the two should be as such:
Do i want to snipe characters and hold objectives? Take 10 allarus with spears and utilize their strats.
This works really well with solar watch, or shadowkeepers.
Do i absolutely need to kill one or two nasty targets? 5-6 aquilons with destructors if you have the points.
Aquilons are a bit better at min sized squads starting on the board as well, since their shooting is a bit stronger (anti-horde with bolters, anti-elite with destroyers).
Eihnlazer wrote: Yeah your decision between the two should be as such:
Do i want to snipe characters and hold objectives? Take 10 allarus with spears and utilize their strats.
This works really well with solar watch, or shadowkeepers.
Do i absolutely need to kill one or two nasty targets? 5-6 aquilons with destructors if you have the points.
Aquilons are a bit better at min sized squads starting on the board as well, since their shooting is a bit stronger (anti-horde with bolters, anti-elite with destroyers).
Why spears? Wouldn't you want to run the axes?
Same shooting profile, better in melee.
no, cause if you need the higher strength you should be running aquillons.
Spears are letting you go cheap. 65pts per allarus is great for what they can do, and they can always use the +1 to wound strat if they need too since its only 1 CP.
The points cost reductions on the aquillons make them a more attractive option for alot of lists, but running the allarus cheap gives them room for play.
Spears allow them to attack at S6 with +1 to wound. That's a great character sniping weapon. The S8 would be extra points, but you would do just as well against T3/4 characters.
Just for the record, how many T5+ characters are out there excluding monsterous or vehicle characters?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Spears allow them to attack at S6 with +1 to wound. That's a great character sniping weapon. The S8 would be extra points, but you would do just as well against T3/4 characters.
Just for the record, how many T5+ characters are out there excluding monsterous or vehicle characters?
Just Space Marines?
Demon Princes, Demons, Other Custodes, Gravis Captains, Deathguard,etc are all T5+
The 1cp to make them effective at wounding in a command point hungry army is not inconsequential.
You can magnetize the axe/spear head and the weapon haft. There is just enough plastic to hold a 1mm magnet in each piece without drilling through, as long as you're careful, best to do it by hand.
Spears are better against the armies I face regularly, but axes are better against others where armour saves are less prevalent.
The axes strat 'Castellan Strike' is pretty lame though, as its only usable when all the models in the unit target the same enemy. In my experience if you're taking a squad of Allarus big enough to want to use the strat on, they're likely to be doing a multi-charge at some point in the game, especially if you Vexilla Teleport Homer them. For this reason, and the point difference, I would generally take spears in a TAC list.
Spartacus wrote: You can magnetize the axe/spear head and the weapon haft. There is just enough plastic to hold a 1mm magnet in each piece without drilling through, as long as you're careful, best to do it by hand.
Spears are better against the armies I face regularly, but axes are better against others where armour saves are less prevalent.
The axes strat 'Castellan Strike' is pretty lame though, as its only usable when all the models in the unit target the same enemy. In my experience if you're taking a squad of Allarus big enough to want to use the strat on, they're likely to be doing a multi-charge at some point in the game, especially if you Vexilla Teleport Homer them. For this reason, and the point difference, I would generally take spears in a TAC list.
So can you find pictures of this? Because I took a look at my haft, and it's still just as big as my drill. I have the GW drill, maybe I'm using the wrong drill? I would really like to see how this is possible the way you are describing it.
As I sit here gluing together an Allarus, a small magnet would fit on the flat part of the haft above the hand. File off the small bump that fits into the weapon head. Each weapon head has a small indent, glue another magnet there.
Goreshrek wrote: As I sit here gluing together an Allarus, a small magnet would fit on the flat part of the haft above the hand. File off the small bump that fits into the weapon head. Each weapon head has a small indent, glue another magnet there.
Yep this exactly.
Currently travelling but I can post pictures on the weekend.
So just had a fun game on TTS against a Dark angels player. Man those deathwing termies are hard......
He had:
Talonmaster/w +6" range on his guns
Chaplain/w master of sanctity and 6" consolidation bubble
Deathwing ancient/w 5+++ bubble
Apothecary on bike/w cheif apoth
2 incursor squads (5man)
Intercessor squad (5man)
3 deathwing bodyguards/w hammer and shield
2 squads of 3 MM attack bikes
2 squads of 5 Deathwing terminators/w maces and shields.
I took a surprise list:
Shadowkeepers
Trajann
Captun Unkillable-Indomitable, auric aquillas, superior creation
Telemon with double storm cannon
squad of 5 venetari/w pistols
4 squads of 5 saggitarum guard/w daggers
Thats right, i actually almost outnumbered my opponent with bodies. 30inf and 7 bikes vs 26 inf and 1 bike and 1 telemon. Unheard of for a custodes list.
Was a very close game and i ended up winning by like 5 points (no thanks to secondaries).
The 4 squads of sagg guard are pretty mean with trajann buffing them.
Captain unkillable did what he was supposed to do, tanking his whole army for 1 and a half turns and stealing an objective from him.
Telemon didnt do jack againgst the deathwing termies (total of like 7 wounds dealt negated by 2 ressurected termies), but he did hold an objective for 4 turns.
The venetari are quite nice for some added backfield threat, clearing his intercessor squad off an objective in the charge phase thus taking it.
It seems like Shadow Keepers SC on a Bike is still the best target for it, but I don't know if the meta has shifted and Blood Games isn't as powerful in 9th?
With the redaction of self buffs, I figure a SC being able to re-roll a deny strat might be helpful?
I just realized there are two strats now that bear the same acronym. Veterans and Victors of the blood games. I was talking about Victors.
Had 2 RTTs this weekend with my Custodes, used the new IA rules. Went 2-1 on Saturday (3rd of 14) and 3-0 Sunday (2nd out of 10). List was basically the same, tested out 2 variants:
Spoiler:
Patrol
Shield Captain on Dawneagle, captain commander - day 1 had Unstoppable destroyer, day 2 was Strategic mastermind
3x3 Sagittarum Guard (2 squads had misericordias)
Vexilla Magnifica w/spear
5 Aquilon terminators - day 1 had Adrathic destructors, day 2 had lastrum bolters
3 Agamatus bikes with las-pulsars
4 Venetari with pistol/buckler - 5 on day 2
Telemon with fist and accelerator culverin, Eternal Penitent
Overall I felt the first iteration with the adrathic destructors on the terminators was better, and even though my record was better on Sunday's tournament I would have done better with Saturday's version. Basically comes down to the terminators usually engaging things where flat 3 AP-3 is a better choice and always wanting Superior Fire Patterns on the Venetari. Sagittarum Guard are really, really good and being able to chuck 9 anti-marine shots across the table is quite valuable, as is the rude shock when your opponent realizes just how nasty 12 misericordia attacks are when they try to sneak in and charge them.
Saturday:
Game 1 (and my only loss of the weekend) to deathguard, spamming Blight Haulers. Went second. Some mistakes by me and ultimately deciding to vexilla homer in my terminators where they still had a 9" charge (trying to bypass some nurglings) and failing to connect with the blight haulers meant I wasn't owning enough of the board and unable to achieve my secondaries while turning the primary tide about a turn too late. Opponent got second behind a guy with an Iron Hands Astraeus that was played illegally.
Game 2: White Scars. Decided to go all in and bum-rush his army...I won the roll off and chose second knowing he'd have to move up and into charge range of my bikes and Telemon. I took some big risks turn 1 (like not raising my banners for secondaries) in favor of dumping all my shooting and charges into his outriders, assault intercessors, and characters. I slaughtered most of his stuff out (including a chaplain and apothecary) my turn 1 and while a lucky turn 3 of saves helped me out it was going to be an uphill battle for my opponent after that. I was most proud of myself this weekend in that game since it proved one of the ways I had theory-played that matchup in my head, plus any time you can beat space marines it's a good day.
Game 3: Drukari. Game was almost over before it began...Custodes hard-counter dark eldar. Went second, rolled well on my invul saves turn 1 but even if I hadn't it would have been tough for my opponent. He still scored alot of points so it was close, but I surged on turn 5 with a maxed primary score. Moral of that game is to make sure you can score enough points so you can keep up with an army that doesn't care if it all dies.
Sunday:
Game 1: Necrons, with a skew build that spammed mortal wounds (2 C'tan and a Transcendant Vault). Went second. I won, but only because we (my opponent) ran out of time and we had to call it turn 4 and I had accrued more points at that time cause I had more secondaries scored, otherwise I would have been tabled. He did have some really good save rolls and really bad C'tan power rolls...it was a weird game overall but that list sucks to play against.
Game 2: Chaos Space Marines (Alpha Legion). Went first and killed alot of stuff. I held the middle of the table and laughed at his AP-2 attacks while killing stuff. Sag guard tanglefooted his terminator bomb and Venetari shot it off the table.
Game 3: Salamanders. Went first, killed some stuff. Hid out for his first turn; he made a big mistake and pushed all his stuff forward, clearing out a space for my deepstriking terminators and Venetari to come in behind his army. His deepstriking inceptors whiffed against my Sag guard, who killed one of the squads next turn and my shield captain speared the other one over 2 turns. He killed the Venetari over a couple turns (they had whiffed against his chaplain, though chaps later died) and the terminators tanked a bunch of eradicator shots and punched them and a bike captain to death. I started losing stuff, but was ahead on points by alot...ended the game with 2 Sag guard on my home objective turn 5. My opponent was my regular sparring partner so it felt good to finally get a win against the green marines.
greyknight12 wrote: Had 2 RTTs this weekend with my Custodes, used the new IA rules. Went 2-1 on Saturday (3rd of 14) and 3-0 Sunday (2nd out of 10). List was basically the same, tested out 2 variants:
Spoiler:
Patrol
Shield Captain on Dawneagle, captain commander - day 1 had Unstoppable destroyer, day 2 was Strategic mastermind
3x3 Sagittarum Guard (2 squads had misericordias)
Vexilla Magnifica w/spear
5 Aquilon terminators - day 1 had Adrathic destructors, day 2 had lastrum bolters
3 Agamatus bikes with las-pulsars
4 Venetari with pistol/buckler - 5 on day 2
Telemon with fist and accelerator culverin, Eternal Penitent
Overall I felt the first iteration with the adrathic destructors on the terminators was better, and even though my record was better on Sunday's tournament I would have done better with Saturday's version. Basically comes down to the terminators usually engaging things where flat 3 AP-3 is a better choice and always wanting Superior Fire Patterns on the Venetari. Sagittarum Guard are really, really good and being able to chuck 9 anti-marine shots across the table is quite valuable, as is the rude shock when your opponent realizes just how nasty 12 misericordia attacks are when they try to sneak in and charge them.
Saturday:
Game 1 (and my only loss of the weekend) to deathguard, spamming Blight Haulers. Went second. Some mistakes by me and ultimately deciding to vexilla homer in my terminators where they still had a 9" charge (trying to bypass some nurglings) and failing to connect with the blight haulers meant I wasn't owning enough of the board and unable to achieve my secondaries while turning the primary tide about a turn too late. Opponent got second behind a guy with an Iron Hands Astraeus that was played illegally.
Game 2: White Scars. Decided to go all in and bum-rush his army...I won the roll off and chose second knowing he'd have to move up and into charge range of my bikes and Telemon. I took some big risks turn 1 (like not raising my banners for secondaries) in favor of dumping all my shooting and charges into his outriders, assault intercessors, and characters. I slaughtered most of his stuff out (including a chaplain and apothecary) my turn 1 and while a lucky turn 3 of saves helped me out it was going to be an uphill battle for my opponent after that. I was most proud of myself this weekend in that game since it proved one of the ways I had theory-played that matchup in my head, plus any time you can beat space marines it's a good day.
Game 3: Drukari. Game was almost over before it began...Custodes hard-counter dark eldar. Went second, rolled well on my invul saves turn 1 but even if I hadn't it would have been tough for my opponent. He still scored alot of points so it was close, but I surged on turn 5 with a maxed primary score. Moral of that game is to make sure you can score enough points so you can keep up with an army that doesn't care if it all dies.
Sunday:
Game 1: Necrons, with a skew build that spammed mortal wounds (2 C'tan and a Transcendant Vault). Went second. I won, but only because we (my opponent) ran out of time and we had to call it turn 4 and I had accrued more points at that time cause I had more secondaries scored, otherwise I would have been tabled. He did have some really good save rolls and really bad C'tan power rolls...it was a weird game overall but that list sucks to play against.
Game 2: Chaos Space Marines (Alpha Legion). Went first and killed alot of stuff. I held the middle of the table and laughed at his AP-2 attacks while killing stuff. Sag guard tanglefooted his terminator bomb and Venetari shot it off the table.
Game 3: Salamanders. Went first, killed some stuff. Hid out for his first turn; he made a big mistake and pushed all his stuff forward, clearing out a space for my deepstriking terminators and Venetari to come in behind his army. His deepstriking inceptors whiffed against my Sag guard, who killed one of the squads next turn and my shield captain speared the other one over 2 turns. He killed the Venetari over a couple turns (they had whiffed against his chaplain, though chaps later died) and the terminators tanked a bunch of eradicator shots and punched them and a bike captain to death. I started losing stuff, but was ahead on points by alot...ended the game with 2 Sag guard on my home objective turn 5. My opponent was my regular sparring partner so it felt good to finally get a win against the green marines.
Thanks for the report. Your list seems like a lot of fun, really cool to hear that you also had success with it.
How did you like the telemon with the fist? Did he do some work in melee?
lmao the insanity of the sword and board shield captain.
Give him the veiled blade relic for +d3 attacks.
Give him Defiant to the last so that he gets +3 attacks from loosing 3 wounds.
Give him a vexilla imperiatus with all seeing anihilator trait for+1 attack and exploding 6's.
Fight againgst chaos to get the exploding 6's stratagem.
He can now theoretically do:
5 base attacks + 1 for vex, +3 for loosing wounds, +3 from the D3 on the relic = 12 attacks and a dagger.
So he rolls 13 dice, all 6's turn into 2 hits and explode, giving him 13 more attacks. He rolls 13 more 6's, giving him a total of 52 hits total. 4 of these hits are daggers for -2ap 1 damage, the other 48 are all swords for -3ap and D3 damage.
So yes, your humble shield captain can dish out in one round of combat (if the stars are aligned) a total of 148 damage. Average is quite a bit less.........
SILENCE! Enough talk like that! You'll bring down the Nerf bots of doom, and he'll be turned into a 200 point unit. We aren't allowed to be good remember?
@Einlazer that's not how exploding 6's work...they give you additional hits, not additional rolls. So you'd just have the 13 attacks, of which 2.2 are 6s which would be 5ish additional hits. So only about 18 hits.
@Tiberias the fist was great, he punched a chaplain and a Daemon prince to death and in general was a solid unit to advance up the board with the vexilla, with the strat he has 6 attacks wounding most things on 2's and flat D4. I think the mixed loadout is best since adding a second fist doesn't outweigh either of the guns and a single fist results in 5 S16 attacks, aka more than a single gun if you can get into melee.
@Fezzik I haven't been taking VotBG, I personally didn't feel that my shield-captains were getting into situations where they needed it all that much. It's still powerful and not a bad choice, but in 9th I'd make 2 arguments against:
1) The game is 1 turn shorter, so you have fewer turns to "make your CP back"
2) There's alot of really good stuff to spend CP on now, and with Moment Shackle or Captain-Commander 5+ CP regen the ones in-game have a chance of being re-couped or free, whereas pre-game CP are just gone. D3 damage means you're not getting as much as you'd like out of most characters, and while the ones that do extra (relic axe or Einlazer's Sword captain) might be worth the "wade into your opponent's army" approach they suffer from being slow.
grey, the thing is there are 2 different kind of explosions going on here.
All seeing anihilator makes each 6 turn into 2 hits, but theres a strat againgst chaos that gives you an additional swing for every 6 as well.
So yes, what i posted is correct. If in theory, you rolled thirteen 6's to hit, you would score 26 hits, then roll an additional 13 hit rolls, which could in turn also be 6's for 26 more hits.
Will it happen? not likely, but its just talk about potential. to roll twenty six 6's in a row is a pretty astronomical feat.
Usually what happens is you roll your 13 attacks, reroll the 1's, and are left with 12-13 hits. 3-4 of those are 6's, so you roll 6 more attacks, reroll the 1's and get another 6-7 hits to end up with 22hits or so on average.
Pretty nice for a single model.
Eihnlazer wrote: grey, the thing is there are 2 different kind of explosions going on here.
All seeing anihilator makes each 6 turn into 2 hits, but theres a strat againgst chaos that gives you an additional swing for every 6 as well.
So yes, what i posted is correct. If in theory, you rolled thirteen 6's to hit, you would score 26 hits, then roll an additional 13 hit rolls, which could in turn also be 6's for 26 more hits.
Will it happen? not likely, but its just talk about potential. to roll twenty six 6's in a row is a pretty astronomical feat.
Usually what happens is you roll your 13 attacks, reroll the 1's, and are left with 12-13 hits. 3-4 of those are 6's, so you roll 6 more attacks, reroll the 1's and get another 6-7 hits to end up with 22hits or so on average.
Pretty nice for a single model.
You have to roll perfectly for all that to go off as planned. I'll admit, a SC with sword/board and dagger is a good unit for the cost, but it's not going to be one shotting any titans or even knights, any time soon. For me it's still a good beatstick to bully enemies with, or careless opponents, but it's hardly a Gazz or a Abbadon, or even a Ragnar. Those are beastly melee commanders.
How are folks finding the re-priced Agamatus Las-pulser bikes? They seem very reasonably priced for some tough, mobile, ranged anti-armour that is sorely needed by Custodes and while not cost efficient for horde clearing duties still have a decent number of shots and attacks to clear objectives when needed.
Very tempted to start Custode's force with a brick of Sagittarum guard accompanying Trajann, and a couple of small squads of Agamatus with Auric Aquilla/eagle's eye Bike captains. I really like how versatile Sagitarrum with daggers are, some decent shooting that can plink a few wounds of anything, respectable CC against non-specialist's and being assault can have a surprising amount of movement when needed.
Thinking of using the brick to hold the mid-field and weaken heavily held objectives while the bikes take out hard targets/lightly held objectives. Late game let surviving elements of the brick split up and seize what objective they can. Biggest weakness I can see in that strategy is leaving the backfield abandoned against deepstrikers and possibly devoting to much CP to buffing HQ's for relics/VotBGs.
I love the laser bikes. They give you the melee of bikes and the shooting of a Caladius. I've personally had better success with 2 3-man rather than 1 6-man, simply because the smaller units are killy enough to engage most stuff and you can spread out over more of the board.
I'd also say you need less stuff to take the "outer objectives" than you'd think, and the nature of 9th edition scoring means you have to get on the objectives early and a late-game push is probably going to be too late.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I want to try the dickbikes, but I am hesitant. Can a SC on a Vertus give them re-rolls, or does the FW barrier exist?
I don't see any reson why he couldn't. As of now the core keyword does nothing for custodes.
And even if it did, Agamatus Bikes have Core. Until an FAQ, all the auras in the codex affect “Adeptus Custodes” (except for the banner that helps out “Imperium”). In fact, Trajan is a great buffer for them if he can keep up.
greyknight12 wrote: I love the laser bikes. They give you the melee of bikes and the shooting of a Caladius. I've personally had better success with 2 3-man rather than 1 6-man, simply because the smaller units are killy enough to engage most stuff and you can spread out over more of the board.
I'd also say you need less stuff to take the "outer objectives" than you'd think, and the nature of 9th edition scoring means you have to get on the objectives early and a late-game push is probably going to be too late.
That's great to hear, I think I'll take the plunge with a couple of 3 man squads.
Fair point about the scoring, might have to re-think my tactics regarding the saggitarum guard. Hopefully with the smaller board size and a bit of clever positioning I can bridge the objectives in my deployment zone with those in the mid-field using the brick of saggitarum. As keeping them at the back would be a waste of their versatility and they really benefit from Trajann's aura.
So im thinking about changing up my dread host a bit. With the knowledge that my grav tanks are gonna be loosing their rerolls, im gonna try phasing them out. Its gonna change the way i play the list alot, not having the ability to blow units off backfield objectives as easily, but I think overall the army will be more thematic and might have a bit more staying power against erad spam and such.
So basically im giving up most of my long range shooting for more bodies and close combat potential. The basic plan is to run the telemon and one guard squad up one flank, and trajann, the vexilla, and the saggitarum guard up another flank. This only leaves me with one shield squad to hold my home objective, which is scary, but they are pretty tanky when you keep them out of LOS and in ruins so mabey it will work.
Deep strike the terminators and the termy captain. I'll be able to put the allarus and my captain into the opponents backfield for linebreaker and use the teleport homer with the vex to bring in the aquilons near trajann to blow out any threats on that flank.
Seem pretty solid or would you just give up one flank to the enemy to keep your backfield better protected?
Would it be better to run autocannon telemon to hold the backfield and just run the 2 guard squads up the weak flank instead?
@ragnorak I’m currently just running one 3-man squad in my list, along with 4 Venetari. I’ve had success as well with 3 regular bike plus 3 agamatus, you have a lot of flexibility in tailoring that fast attack slot to whatever kind of firepower you need...the one constant I’ve found is I need 2 fast things.
@Einlazer I’d actually recommend the opposite strategy...leave your sag guard to hold homefield since they can still shoot halfway across the board and with Ever Vigilant, overwatch on 5’s and Tanglefoot they aren’t getting shifted, whereas your shield guard need to be close in to contribute and that’s where that 1+/3++ will give you the most mileage.
So has anyone had any experience with bringing 2 telemons in a 2k list since the forgeworld update?
I was thinking of running one with two iliastus as a gun platform with Trajann nearby (while he still can buff him since we know the telemon isn't core) and the second one with two fists in deepstrike along a terminator captain with all seeing annihilator.
It sounds fun, but is it worth it in your opinion? The telemon is powerful to be sure, but those two models would be a quarter of my army. Anyway here's the list:
Tiberias wrote: So has anyone had any experience with bringing 2 telemons in a 2k list since the forgeworld update?
I was thinking of running one with two iliastus as a gun platform with Trajann nearby (while he still can buff him since we know the telemon isn't core) and the second one with two fists in deepstrike along a terminator captain with all seeing annihilator.
It sounds fun, but is it worth it in your opinion? The telemon is powerful to be sure, but those two models would be a quarter of my army. Anyway here's the list:
I've done double telemon. I usually run one with the twin storm cannons, and the other with a cannon/fist in deep strike with eternal penitent.
I'd consider it (with my meta) to be relatively casual considering how many points everything costs. But YMMV.
So, my cousin, who is also returning to the game, is collecting chaos knights. Given the high probability that i will end up playing him repeatedly, What do guys recommend for fighting knights? Im not really sure how to deal with them. I can't think of much we have that is going to be both able to hunt them and survive long enough to kill or cripple two or three knights
xerxeskingofking wrote: So, my cousin, who is also returning to the game, is collecting chaos knights. Given the high probability that i will end up playing him repeatedly, What do guys recommend for fighting knights? Im not really sure how to deal with them. I can't think of much we have that is going to be both able to hunt them and survive long enough to kill or cripple two or three knights
Aquilons wound Knights on 3's. A surprising amount of Knight guns are AP-2 so Armor and Adamantium should let you resist them on 2+. Basically, Aquilons, Aquilons, Aquilons. You can even use Slayer of Nightmares to give them +1 to wound and wound the Knights on 2's.
Telemons with double Arachnus might help too. They only wound on 4's but the beam profile re-rolls wound rolls against vehicles.
Don't forget you can Tanglefoot Knights too (only doesn't work on FLY, TITANIC is fine).
If you've got a bunch of Jetbikes they'll slam pretty hard into a Knight as well (just don't let the Knight go first with its stomp attacks because they can't Auramite and Adamantium). Sword+Board Custodians are great for holding objectives (remember, the shield's +1 to armor saves works in melee too, but you'll be a 3++ regardless).
xerxeskingofking wrote: So, my cousin, who is also returning to the game, is collecting chaos knights. Given the high probability that i will end up playing him repeatedly, What do guys recommend for fighting knights? Im not really sure how to deal with them. I can't think of much we have that is going to be both able to hunt them and survive long enough to kill or cripple two or three knights
Aqulion Terminator Fists with Slayers of Nightmares will wound on 2s, offering no saves, and with Trajann nearby, 4-5 will drop a full strength knight a turn.
Twin Caestus Telemon Dreadnought with Eternal Penitent and Wisdom of the Ancients will Hit on 2s, rerolling 1s, wounding on 2s (Str 16), at ap-3, flat 4 damage.
Best thing to tie a knight up are sword and board Custodian Guard, as they'll still get that sweet 3++ in melee, and you can make the knights wound them on 4s for 2CP.
If you run full Aquillons two things will happen: 1. You will likely win
2. He will likely stop playing entirely.
Custom tailoring a list to play against a family member is rough man. I would say if you care about them having a good time, take a TAC list. Knights as a rule in 9th are pretty much gonna lose on points due to not having the ability to hold objectives well. If you run a full TAC list you should have no problem roughing them up, and saving the friendship.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: If you run full Aquillons two things will happen: 1. You will likely win
2. He will likely stop playing entirely.
Custom tailoring a list to play against a family member is rough man. I would say if you care about them having a good time, take a TAC list. Knights as a rule in 9th are pretty much gonna lose on points due to not having the ability to hold objectives well. If you run a full TAC list you should have no problem roughing them up, and saving the friendship.
Thank you for this. This page was really depressing me with the excesses GW leaves in game.
Thanks for the advice, all of it. I get that if i go pure anti knight I could table him, i was curious about what options i had and was looking at maybe adding one option to my buying list. I was already looking at some of those options anyway, like the twin cannon telemon. I was already thinking about the aquillons, mainly because I can't get hold of any allarus type at the moment with the stock shortages.
I just don't have much general experience with this the modern game and I don't really know how deadly a knights list is, or what i have that can do enough damage to Matter against something that big.
Im not particularly worried about alienating him from the game or me, apart from anything else im still so new to his that i don't think ill be any better at playing the objectives than he is. I feel i must also point out hes in his 20s, and not a wide eyed 13 year old whose dreams i am about to crush.
ok, ive decided im getting a trio of aquilllions, becuase i cant get any GW custodes for love or money, and i can fit them into my planned future lists without too much worry.
last time i got anything form forge world like this (a leman russ Executioner turret, back in the tail end of 3rd ed over 15 years ago), i had to take actual hacksaw to it in order to get rid of casting artefacts to make it assemble. Has the quality of their resin casts gone up since then? Im not adverse to the odd cast line here or thier but if i'm going to have to file every single part in order to get it to fit together, i'd at least like to know now so i can get some tools to do that with, especially since i am planning on getting both the Telemon and the spear armed dread as well.
xerxeskingofking wrote: ok, ive decided im getting a trio of aquilllions, becuase i cant get any GW custodes for love or money, and i can fit them into my planned future lists without too much worry.
last time i got anything form forge world like this (a leman russ Executioner turret, back in the tail end of 3rd ed over 15 years ago), i had to take actual hacksaw to it in order to get rid of casting artefacts to make it assemble. Has the quality of their resin casts gone up since then? Im not adverse to the odd cast line here or thier but if i'm going to have to file every single part in order to get it to fit together, i'd at least like to know now so i can get some tools to do that with, especially since i am planning on getting both the Telemon and the spear armed dread as well.
It's really hit and miss. Their large models still generally need a bit of work but most of their troop/dread sized minis are fairly decent now. Still need a knife to trim mould lines but it's generally not too painful.
Just run Allarus "Counts as" anyone who is there to play a game should have zero problem. Same base size, general height is the same, you can't really argue advantage.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Just run Allarus "Counts as" anyone who is there to play a game should have zero problem. Same base size, general height is the same, you can't really argue advantage.
Fun random fact: Aquillons have a bigger base size (40mm vs. 50mm)!
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Just run Allarus "Counts as" anyone who is there to play a game should have zero problem. Same base size, general height is the same, you can't really argue advantage.
Fun random fact: Aquillons have a bigger base size (40mm vs. 50mm)!
Damn, sorry. I've actually never had anyone call me on my "counts as" but I've never been in a majorly competitive environment. YMMV.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Just run Allarus "Counts as" anyone who is there to play a game should have zero problem. Same base size, general height is the same, you can't really argue advantage.
Truthfully? I can buy aquillons, but i can't buy allarus as they are out of stock and not likely to be in stock for many weeks. Id have bought Allarus them if i could, but im happy enough with the aquillons, and was planning on getting the Achillus dread anyway (i just plain like the model).
anyway, my rough 2k list is
Spoiler:
Shield cap with spear (warlord: Superior creation, Capt comd: Strategic mastermind)
Shield cap with Axe (capt comd: Swift as the Eagle)
5 spear guard
3 spear guard
5 sagittarum
3 aquillon (bolter and fist)
Contemptor Achillus (eternal Penitent)
Vexilus (spear, defensor)
3 vertus (either type)
telemon (twin storm cannons)
items in Green have already been purchases, and the rest are going to be as soon as christmas funds (and GW stocking) make it possible.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Just run Allarus "Counts as" anyone who is there to play a game should have zero problem. Same base size, general height is the same, you can't really argue advantage.
Fun random fact: Aquillons have a bigger base size (40mm vs. 50mm)!
Fun fact, I ordered 9 Aquillons. FW sent 9 40mm bases with them. I know that this is likely an error on their part, but I'm not buying new bases and rebasing
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Just run Allarus "Counts as" anyone who is there to play a game should have zero problem. Same base size, general height is the same, you can't really argue advantage.
Fun random fact: Aquillons have a bigger base size (40mm vs. 50mm)!
Fun fact, I ordered 9 Aquillons. FW sent 9 40mm bases with them. I know that this is likely an error on their part, but I'm not buying new bases and rebasing
Ha! That does seem to be an error. Site says 50MM (and I think mine are bigger too). I definitely sympathize though.
They are supposed to be on 50's. Its more a throwback to 30k, as all custodes have a 3" coherancy in 30k. 6 aquillons can spread out to cover a pretty large area with their 50mm bases and 3" coherancy.
In the Fluff they are used as bodyguards for the most important people in the imperium i believe so im disapointed they didnt get either a bodyguard rule or an extra wound.
I definitely am not complaining about the points reduction though. I can run them with destructors now for the same price they were previously with daggers pretty much.
Feeling kinda hinky now, I've been playing "counts -as" for a while with GW as FW models, does this extrend past terminators? Are Guardians with different spears and Sag guardians different base as well? Also are the Telemons and other FW dreads not the same base as the Relic Contemptor? Now I feel really bad.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Feeling kinda hinky now, I've been playing "counts -as" for a while with GW as FW models, does this extrend past terminators? Are Guardians with different spears and Sag guardians different base as well? Also are the Telemons and other FW dreads not the same base as the Relic Contemptor? Now I feel really bad.
Telemons, according to the FW site, are supllied with a 100mm base.
the custodes Contemptors are on a 60MM base, the same size as the FW contemptors and GW plastic SM dreads.
the guardian varients are all conversion kits to the base plastic guardian kits, so you they should be the same base size as the standard guardians.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Feeling kinda hinky now, I've been playing "counts -as" for a while with GW as FW models, does this extrend past terminators? Are Guardians with different spears and Sag guardians different base as well? Also are the Telemons and other FW dreads not the same base as the Relic Contemptor? Now I feel really bad.
Telemons, according to the FW site, are supllied with a 100mm base.
the custodes Contemptors are on a 60MM base, the same size as the FW contemptors and GW plastic SM dreads.
the guardian varients are all conversion kits to the base plastic guardian kits, so you they should be the same base size as the standard guardians.
If I recall, Guardians and Sag get a bit wonky. If you buy the upgrade sprues, your Guardians and Sag have the same base, but if you just straight buy Sag, their base is smaller than a Guardian's.
Don't feel hinky though Fezzik. As long as your opponent was fine with it it's not a big deal. I did something similar on Tabletop Simulator because I couldn't find good models.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Feeling kinda hinky now, I've been playing "counts -as" for a while with GW as FW models, does this extrend past terminators? Are Guardians with different spears and Sag guardians different base as well? Also are the Telemons and other FW dreads not the same base as the Relic Contemptor? Now I feel really bad.
The Telemon is also much larger than a the other Custodes dreads.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Feeling kinda hinky now, I've been playing "counts -as" for a while with GW as FW models, does this extrend past terminators? Are Guardians with different spears and Sag guardians different base as well? Also are the Telemons and other FW dreads not the same base as the Relic Contemptor? Now I feel really bad.
Telemons, according to the FW site, are supllied with a 100mm base.
the custodes Contemptors are on a 60MM base, the same size as the FW contemptors and GW plastic SM dreads.
the guardian varients are all conversion kits to the base plastic guardian kits, so you they should be the same base size as the standard guardians.
If I recall, Guardians and Sag get a bit wonky. If you buy the upgrade sprues, your Guardians and Sag have the same base, but if you just straight buy Sag, their base is smaller than a Guardian's.
Don't feel hinky though Fezzik. As long as your opponent was fine with it it's not a big deal. I did something similar on Tabletop Simulator because I couldn't find good models.
This is not true Sags come with 40mm bases unless you some how got the wrong bases.
All Custodes infantry models are on 40mm bases except for Aquilon which are on 50mm
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Feeling kinda hinky now, I've been playing "counts -as" for a while with GW as FW models, does this extrend past terminators? Are Guardians with different spears and Sag guardians different base as well? Also are the Telemons and other FW dreads not the same base as the Relic Contemptor? Now I feel really bad.
The Telemon is also much larger than a the other Custodes dreads.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Feeling kinda hinky now, I've been playing "counts -as" for a while with GW as FW models, does this extrend past terminators? Are Guardians with different spears and Sag guardians different base as well? Also are the Telemons and other FW dreads not the same base as the Relic Contemptor? Now I feel really bad.
Telemons, according to the FW site, are supllied with a 100mm base.
the custodes Contemptors are on a 60MM base, the same size as the FW contemptors and GW plastic SM dreads.
the guardian varients are all conversion kits to the base plastic guardian kits, so you they should be the same base size as the standard guardians.
If I recall, Guardians and Sag get a bit wonky. If you buy the upgrade sprues, your Guardians and Sag have the same base, but if you just straight buy Sag, their base is smaller than a Guardian's.
Don't feel hinky though Fezzik. As long as your opponent was fine with it it's not a big deal. I did something similar on Tabletop Simulator because I couldn't find good models.
This is not true Sags come with 40mm bases unless you some how got the wrong bases.
All Custodes infantry models are on 40mm bases except for Aquilon which are on 50mm
Aha! FW fixed it. See page 117 of this very thread. Site used to say Sag were 32MM.
Does anyone run a custodes list with lots of FW dreads in? I'm putting together the bits to run a bike and dread list but a little worried about the lack of flexibility and objective scoring. I know allarus sort a lot of those issues out but they feel really expensive for what they do.
it does indeed say that a dread can only be affected by the strat once, which heavily implies it can be used more than once if you have multiple dreads
So with the new changes to Mortarian and 2 wound Plague marines, I'm kinda scared we will lose "most durable" army. I mean, there is really nothing more you can do to buff Custodes, we already cost way more than anyone else, but I don't see how we can take down Morty's new profile, Blight haulters, bloat drones, and hordes of 21 point 2 wound plague marines.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So with the new changes to Mortarian and 2 wound Plague marines, I'm kinda scared we will lose "most durable" army. I mean, there is really nothing more you can do to buff Custodes, we already cost way more than anyone else, but I don't see how we can take down Morty's new profile, Blight haulters, bloat drones, and hordes of 21 point 2 wound plague marines.
We don't know the points on Plague Marines or any of the others yet so we'll have to see. Right now, it's a fair match-up between us. I would expect us to be at a disadvantage once they get a Codex and we're still waiting for ours, but likely not insurmountable.
Morty's profile was originally best taken down by a schlew of Hurricane Bolters (120 shots almost 1-rounded him in Rapid Fire). T8 changes wounding on 5's to wound on 6's, but no MW aura means we can hit him in melee after and not worry about it as much (exploding still hurts though).
I dunn0, 120 S4 AP0 d1 shots don't really do much now to a T8 with character protections, 2+4++5+++. That now does 2 damage to him. Before it did 3 damage.
Add in the spears and it adds a whoping 3 more damage. Bikes don't even drop him to his second bracket now.
Squad of Allarus on the other hand? Just over 8 wounds if they don't double shoot and make the charge with axes.
Our spears and halberds need to be 2d and axes need to be flat 3.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I dunn0, 120 S4 AP0 d1 shots don't really do much now to a T8 with character protections, 2+4++5+++. That now does 2 damage to him. Before it did 3 damage.
Add in the spears and it adds a whoping 3 more damage. Bikes don't even drop him to his second bracket now.
Squad of Allarus on the other hand? Just over 8 wounds if they don't double shoot and make the charge with axes.
Our spears and halberds need to be 2d and axes need to be flat 3.
He's 3+ not 2+ I believe (even in the new datasheet). 120 shots from Jetbikes, re-rolling 1's to Hit, generally did 8-9 wounds to him so my memory was a hair off but still solid (it was my go-to method for dropping Morty lists).
Anyway, rumor is now that all Death Guard 5+++'s are becoming 6+++'s as well (while one poster called the screenshot for that obviously fake, others seem to be taking it in the News & Rumor thread). The point is we still just don't know enough (for instance, what does the Death Guard doctrine Morty's datasheet hints at indicate?).
Likely, the answer will be to eat him with Adrathic Aquillons and just tank the explosion on the chin (the melee attacks alone should average you 16 wounds with Slayer of Nightmares active).
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I know that none of this is "confirmed" but the leaks coming out about the new Deathguard scare the crap out of me. The new crawlers especially.
Haven't seen it, what's scarier than before about them? Better ballistic skill?
better BS, a new ability that basically lets them ignore Tanglefoot or other movement reducing effects, ability to re-roll number of attacks on some flamer-type "Plague" weapons.....yhea, thier getting a lot of new stuff.
also, just got my Aquillions and started assembling them. they've gone together better than i had feared they might, and i'm happy with the casting quality (i was able to cut the parts out with nothing but my standard hobby cutters, though i think a proper knife would have been better).
i'd forgotton how good GW plastic glue was, though, until i was forced to use regular superglue for these guys. suffice to say, i've had real trouble getting the arms and the weapons to stay in place long enough for the glue to set.
Typhus gained 2 attacks, +1 to movement, and if terminator rules translate, he'll likely get those.Drones and Crawlers are now BS3 and get an extra attack and wound. Blight launchers are now flat 2d instead of d3. Flamer types are now S6.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Typhus gained 2 attacks, +1 to movement, and if terminator rules translate, he'll likely get those.Drones and Crawlers are now BS3 and get an extra attack and wound. Blight launchers are now flat 2d instead of d3. Flamer types are now S6.
If that is, then good...cause he's got no invul save or psychic powers. I've seen other posts that suggest that he has lost the mortal wounds aura, which would make him easier for us to deal with.
That said, we'll wait and see once the actual book comes out and everyone figures out the synergies.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Typhus gained 2 attacks, +1 to movement, and if terminator rules translate, he'll likely get those.Drones and Crawlers are now BS3 and get an extra attack and wound. Blight launchers are now flat 2d instead of d3. Flamer types are now S6.
If that is, then good...cause he's got no invul save or psychic powers. I've seen other posts that suggest that he has lost the mortal wounds aura, which would make him easier for us to deal with.
That said, we'll wait and see once the actual book comes out and everyone figures out the synergies.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Typhus gained 2 attacks, +1 to movement, and if terminator rules translate, he'll likely get those.Drones and Crawlers are now BS3 and get an extra attack and wound. Blight launchers are now flat 2d instead of d3. Flamer types are now S6.
If that is, then good...cause he's got no invul save or psychic powers. I've seen other posts that suggest that he has lost the mortal wounds aura, which would make him easier for us to deal with.
That said, we'll wait and see once the actual book comes out and everyone figures out the synergies.
He's got a 4++. He has rules.
Oh I know...just pointing out that Fezzik's link was very incomplete
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Typhus gained 2 attacks, +1 to movement, and if terminator rules translate, he'll likely get those.Drones and Crawlers are now BS3 and get an extra attack and wound. Blight launchers are now flat 2d instead of d3. Flamer types are now S6.
If that is, then good...cause he's got no invul save or psychic powers. I've seen other posts that suggest that he has lost the mortal wounds aura, which would make him easier for us to deal with.
That said, we'll wait and see once the actual book comes out and everyone figures out the synergies.
He's got a 4++. He has rules.
Oh I know...just pointing out that Fezzik's link was very incomplete
Jesus man, I know I can be wrong some times, but admit you messed up and just tried to insinuate a Character in Terminator armor did NOT have an invuln. That's not my fault. That's on you.
Mortarion isn't in terminator armor, apologies for the confusion but that's who I was referring to. He's a Daemon primarch, and that's the source of his invul save. Saying "these are his rules" without any of the special rules part is an invitation to sarcasm at the very least.
Fezzik, when I make a mistake, I'll admit it. You on the other hand spool up and derail conversations with hyperbole and incorrect information, and frankly the only reason I haven't muted you is so that I can dispel the more outlandish strategy/conspiracy rants for new posters who don't know any better. The internet doesn't have to be an outlet for every stream-of-consciousness thought, the same rules apply as to normal conversation.
Honestly, I hate the "elite competitor scene". Every time I hear someone crap on Dakka I defend it because there's something special about everyday 40K players across the world working together to get better at their chosen aspect of the game; whether that's hobby, narrative play, or tournaments. But this thread over the past several pages has basically validated everything the Art of War/Special Patreon Podcast people accuse DakkaDakka of being. There's NO discussion of listbuilding, strategy, or in-game tactics, just pages and pages of wishlisting, paranoia, and hyperbole. No one is even interested in starting a new thread (this one began pre-codex in 8th) despite multiple suggestions/offers to do so. Every attempt to bring the thread back to it's purpose is promptly derailed. You guys are better than this, and it kills me to watch so much potential in this discussion format be wasted.
I'll see myself out.
So im currently participating in Blood and Glory's online 40k league. 4 round tourny, 1 game a week. It's over TTS, and we are in week 2.
My list is very strong, however my attrocious rolling has cause me to loose week 2 game 95-83 to a SoB list.
trajann, shield captain/w CC-strategic mastermind and peerless warrior + The vieled blade.
5x5 saggitarum guard/w daggers -2
5 venetari
1 vindicare assasin
very simple list, easy to play, fast to move, expensive (25 sagg is like $585 or so retail).
Kicks out 60-124 shots per round and up to 130 melee attacks per round as well.
33 infantry in a custodes list is fairly daunting to look at if you arent packing serious heat.
I usually run it emysiries imperatus for The Emporer's Hand strat so i can guarentee i kill something.
Eihnlazer wrote: So im currently participating in Blood and Glory's online 40k league. 4 round tourny, 1 game a week. It's over TTS, and we are in week 2.
My list is very strong, however my attrocious rolling has cause me to loose week 2 game 95-83 to a SoB list.
trajann, shield captain/w CC-strategic mastermind and peerless warrior + The vieled blade.
5x5 saggitarum guard/w daggers -2
5 venetari
1 vindicare assasin
very simple list, easy to play, fast to move, expensive (25 sagg is like $585 or so retail).
Kicks out 60-124 shots per round and up to 130 melee attacks per round as well.
33 infantry in a custodes list is fairly daunting to look at if you arent packing serious heat.
I usually run it emysiries imperatus for The Emporer's Hand strat so i can guarentee i kill something.
Anyone got opinions?
The Vindicare has a less than 50% chance of actually killing something usually. I'd swap it for a Culexus to gain access to the fight last strat or an inquisitor (Greyfax, Rex or Draxus) to get denials and a little MW access.
Who has the numbers on a squad of our infantry melee (everything is d3) against a squad of 2w Deathguard with the new change to DR?
I am now going to have to load up melta spears, as they will at least outright kill Plague marines/Terminators within charge range.
So with a squad of new melta spear guardians, they can maybe shoot 2-3 off the table, then charge, and slice maybe another 1-2? Termies get about the same for shooting, but our melee likely won't kill 2.
It's amazing how melta spears just became an optimal loadout. How do Sag's do against blight terminators now?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Who has the numbers on a squad of our infantry melee (everything is d3) against a squad of 2w Deathguard with the new change to DR?
I am now going to have to load up melta spears, as they will at least outright kill Plague marines/Terminators within charge range.
So with a squad of new melta spear guardians, they can maybe shoot 2-3 off the table, then charge, and slice maybe another 1-2? Termies get about the same for shooting, but our melee likely won't kill 2.
It's amazing how melta spears just became an optimal loadout. How do Sag's do against blight terminators now?
The 18" beam will drop a PM outright. The 36" shot won't do so hot.
I only just mathed 5 Aquillons in range of Trajann's aura quick for melee. 20 attacks, about 18 wounds dealt. No armor save for PM, no invuln for PM, 1 damage each, kills 9 of them. Adrathic Destructors are flat 3 damage I think so probably good to use those. Should be like 9 wounds, 7-8 go unsaved, 3 damage minus 1 is 2 damage so 7-8 dead PM from that too.
Hurricane bolters don't have a great time. In range of a Shield-Captain, 10 Jetbikes kill about 6 PM with Hurricane Bolters. On the charge, one Jetbike should kill 2 PM (4 attacks, all hit, re-roll wounds while wounding on a 3+, 6+ armor save and then -1 damage means probably 3 attacks wound, 2 do 1 damage and 1 does 2 damage after reduction). So a squad of 3 Jetbikes kills 6 PM on the charge. 10 Jetbikes kill 20 PM + 6 from Hurricanes for 26 PM. But basically, 1 Jetbike kills 2.5 PM's between the combo of Hurricanes + melee on the charge. Haven't rough mathed anything else in my head.
so yes, aquillons with destructors are still 10ppm cheaper than bikes and kill more PM on average.
Achilles dreads are very attractive againgst PM's as well, as they have the flat 3 shooting and flat 4 melee to take out the terminators.
Telemon with storm cannons or double fist will be the mainstays still, as their autocannon build just got gutted against DG.
Tanks are once more going down in effectiveness, so even more reason to start phasing our formerly best LR threat out of our lists.
Venetari loose half their effectiveness against PM's, which is big as they were the new best ranged threat after their recent buff. This is no longer the case (at least againgst DG).
The Ares is gaining a slight increase in effectiveness against DG, since the bombs are better and it has flat3/4 dmg shooting.
I only just mathed 5 Aquillons in range of Trajann's aura quick for melee. 20 attacks, about 18 wounds dealt. No armor save for PM, no invuln for PM, 1 damage each, kills 9 of them. Adrathic Destructors are flat 3 damage I think so probably good to use those. Should be like 9 wounds, 7-8 go unsaved, 3 damage minus 1 is 2 damage so 7-8 dead PM from that too.
The Aquillon's won't do that well shooting with their destructors, as they are only two shots and wound on 4s. Closer to 5 or 6 wounds for those. With the PMs saving on a 6+, the Aquillons probably kill between 4 and 5 Plague Marines in shooting with Trajann's aura. Aquillons with bolters under superior fire patterns do relatively comparable damage in Trajann's aura (About 38 or so hits, 19 to 20ish wounds, approximately 9 or 10 failed saves results in about 4-5 dead Plague Marines). My math is just top of my head numbers but it seems like Aquillons of any flavor could be decently effective against Plague Marines.
In the interest of meeting the request to talk more about tactics and strategies:
'm a little hesitant to throw big cost units like telmons into a horde fight against DG, with their new weapon profiles. I'd rather try and tie them up with Shield boys and maybe chip away with swords while they try desperately to kill me.
It's funny how this change changes the meta on autocannon-like weapons. 48"+ D2 weapons. I mean, they are still great primaris killers, but now the DG basically invalidate Plasma, ACs, and HBs. You either roll LCs Meltas. I'm saying Melta Spears and Sags for TAC lists against DG?
What is the cost difference of an all melta spear guardian squad vs. a Blight Terminator squad? Is it more efficient to just SAG them off the table?
I only just mathed 5 Aquillons in range of Trajann's aura quick for melee. 20 attacks, about 18 wounds dealt. No armor save for PM, no invuln for PM, 1 damage each, kills 9 of them. Adrathic Destructors are flat 3 damage I think so probably good to use those. Should be like 9 wounds, 7-8 go unsaved, 3 damage minus 1 is 2 damage so 7-8 dead PM from that too.
The Aquillon's won't do that well shooting with their destructors, as they are only two shots and wound on 4s. Closer to 5 or 6 wounds for those. With the PMs saving on a 6+, the Aquillons probably kill between 4 and 5 Plague Marines in shooting with Trajann's aura. Aquillons with bolters under superior fire patterns do relatively comparable damage in Trajann's aura (About 38 or so hits, 19 to 20ish wounds, approximately 9 or 10 failed saves results in about 4-5 dead Plague Marines). My math is just top of my head numbers but it seems like Aquillons of any flavor could be decently effective against Plague Marines.
I did the math as wounding on 3's for destructors. My bad. Does seem they're about equal but I'd rather spend points than CP.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: In the interest of meeting the request to talk more about tactics and strategies:
'm a little hesitant to throw big cost units like telmons into a horde fight against DG, with their new weapon profiles. I'd rather try and tie them up with Shield boys and maybe chip away with swords while they try desperately to kill me.
It's funny how this change changes the meta on autocannon-like weapons. 48"+ D2 weapons. I mean, they are still great primaris killers, but now the DG basically invalidate Plasma, ACs, and HBs. You either roll LCs Meltas. I'm saying Melta Spears and Sags for TAC lists against DG?
What is the cost difference of an all melta spear guardian squad vs. a Blight Terminator squad? Is it more efficient to just SAG them off the table?
Melta is probably more efficient. It also makes an interesting choice between our Arachnus loadouts (flat 3 damage for Telemons and Grav-Tanks I believe) vs. Accelerator loadouts.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: In the interest of meeting the request to talk more about tactics and strategies:
'm a little hesitant to throw big cost units like telmons into a horde fight against DG, with their new weapon profiles. I'd rather try and tie them up with Shield boys and maybe chip away with swords while they try desperately to kill me.
It's funny how this change changes the meta on autocannon-like weapons. 48"+ D2 weapons. I mean, they are still great primaris killers, but now the DG basically invalidate Plasma, ACs, and HBs. You either roll LCs Meltas. I'm saying Melta Spears and Sags for TAC lists against DG?
What is the cost difference of an all melta spear guardian squad vs. a Blight Terminator squad? Is it more efficient to just SAG them off the table?
Melta is probably more efficient. It also makes an interesting choice between our Arachnus loadouts (flat 3 damage for Telemons and Grav-Tanks I believe) vs. Accelerator loadouts.
close. str8, D 3 for the beam setting on the telemon, Str 9, D3+3 on the tank (which seems to have "heavy" versions of the Arachnus and Accelerator weapons, unless battlescribe is lying to me, as i dont have the new FW book until my sis gets it me for christmas)
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: In the interest of meeting the request to talk more about tactics and strategies:
'm a little hesitant to throw big cost units like telmons into a horde fight against DG, with their new weapon profiles. I'd rather try and tie them up with Shield boys and maybe chip away with swords while they try desperately to kill me.
It's funny how this change changes the meta on autocannon-like weapons. 48"+ D2 weapons. I mean, they are still great primaris killers, but now the DG basically invalidate Plasma, ACs, and HBs. You either roll LCs Meltas. I'm saying Melta Spears and Sags for TAC lists against DG?
What is the cost difference of an all melta spear guardian squad vs. a Blight Terminator squad? Is it more efficient to just SAG them off the table?
Melta is probably more efficient. It also makes an interesting choice between our Arachnus loadouts (flat 3 damage for Telemons and Grav-Tanks I believe) vs. Accelerator loadouts.
close. str8, D 3 for the beam setting on the telemon, Str 9, D3+3 on the tank (which seems to have "heavy" versions of the Arachnus and Accelerator weapons, unless battlescribe is lying to me, as i dont have the new FW book until my sis gets it me for christmas)
I would love to run a flight of storm tanks against terminators, but even that is liable to get messed up by Mortarian or Blight Haulers. They are looking like a really great codex. I hope Custodes will be equally shocking.
Is Mortarian still best countered by Terminators/bikes?
I have decided to build a small Custodian detachment since I can't seem to be able to sell the few models I have.
I've written up a list, in the spoiler, but I cant seem to decide if I want Wardens or Allarus.
What's the concensus on these two as units?
I feel they do a very similar job on paper, only clear distinction is FNP & need the strat to Deep Strike against baked in Deep Strike and an extra wound.
Enough points left over after the Warden/Allarus unit for an assassin or inquisitor.
Idea is two backfield objectives just get camped by the daggerless Sagittarum, the dagger Sagittarum and Shielded Guard squad castle up around the foot captain and the vexilla to push straight up the centre of the field. bikers + captain go up one flank, and the final squad teleports in on an objective somewhere.
I have decided to build a small Custodian detachment since I can't seem to be able to sell the few models I have.
I've written up a list, in the spoiler, but I cant seem to decide if I want Wardens or Allarus.
What's the concensus on these two as units?
I feel they do a very similar job on paper, only clear distinction is FNP & need the strat to Deep Strike against baked in Deep Strike and an extra wound.
Enough points left over after the Warden/Allarus unit for an assassin or inquisitor.
Idea is two backfield objectives just get camped by the daggerless Sagittarum, the dagger Sagittarum and Shielded Guard squad castle up around the foot captain and the vexilla to push straight up the centre of the field. bikers + captain go up one flank, and the final squad teleports in on an objective somewhere.
Any ideas?
Your list looks fine, saggitarum and bikes are awesome. Just scrap the shield captain with the gatekeeper and play either Trajann Valoris or a terminator captain. Our normal shield captains are good units in a vacuum, but our other shield captain variants are better at the moment.
Regarding wardens vs allarus: go allarus terminators always. They are straight up better that the wardens because of their awesome stratagem support.
On another note, I had a friendly game against space wolves this weekend and brought a double fist telemon and it was hilarious. If that guy reaches the enemy he just smashes everything. My telemon chewed through 4 blade guard veterans, a judiciar and ragnar.....I love that chunky bastard.
I have decided to build a small Custodian detachment since I can't seem to be able to sell the few models I have.
I've written up a list, in the spoiler, but I cant seem to decide if I want Wardens or Allarus.
What's the concensus on these two as units?
I feel they do a very similar job on paper, only clear distinction is FNP & need the strat to Deep Strike against baked in Deep Strike and an extra wound.
The rest of the list:
Shield Captain w/ Gatekeeper
Biker Captain w/ Auric Aquilas
Vertus Praetor - -1 to hit or +1 attack, can't decide. Most likely +1 attack.
2x 3 Sagittarum Custodians
1x 3 Sagittarum Custodian w/ Misericordia
1x 5 Custodian Guard - 3 Sword and Shield, 2 Spear
2x 5 Dawneagle Jetbikes - 3 Bolter 2 Salvo
Enough points left over after the Warden/Allarus unit for an assassin or inquisitor.
Idea is two backfield objectives just get camped by the daggerless Sagittarum, the dagger Sagittarum and Shielded Guard squad castle up around the foot captain and the vexilla to push straight up the centre of the field. bikers + captain go up one flank, and the final squad teleports in on an objective somewhere.
Any ideas?
Your list looks fine, saggitarum and bikes are awesome. Just scrap the shield captain with the gatekeeper and play either Trajann Valoris or a terminator captain. Our normal shield captains are good units in a vacuum, but our other shield captain variants are better at the moment.
Regarding wardens vs allarus: go allarus terminators always. They are straight up better that the wardens because of their awesome stratagem support.
Any strats in particular make Allarus that much better? I'm probably just being thick to be honest, but a few mild pointers wouldnt go amiss
I have decided to build a small Custodian detachment since I can't seem to be able to sell the few models I have.
I've written up a list, in the spoiler, but I cant seem to decide if I want Wardens or Allarus.
What's the concensus on these two as units?
I feel they do a very similar job on paper, only clear distinction is FNP & need the strat to Deep Strike against baked in Deep Strike and an extra wound.
The rest of the list:
Shield Captain w/ Gatekeeper
Biker Captain w/ Auric Aquilas
Vertus Praetor - -1 to hit or +1 attack, can't decide. Most likely +1 attack.
2x 3 Sagittarum Custodians
1x 3 Sagittarum Custodian w/ Misericordia
1x 5 Custodian Guard - 3 Sword and Shield, 2 Spear
2x 5 Dawneagle Jetbikes - 3 Bolter 2 Salvo
Enough points left over after the Warden/Allarus unit for an assassin or inquisitor.
Idea is two backfield objectives just get camped by the daggerless Sagittarum, the dagger Sagittarum and Shielded Guard squad castle up around the foot captain and the vexilla to push straight up the centre of the field. bikers + captain go up one flank, and the final squad teleports in on an objective somewhere.
Any ideas?
Your list looks fine, saggitarum and bikes are awesome. Just scrap the shield captain with the gatekeeper and play either Trajann Valoris or a terminator captain. Our normal shield captains are good units in a vacuum, but our other shield captain variants are better at the moment.
Regarding wardens vs allarus: go allarus terminators always. They are straight up better that the wardens because of their awesome stratagem support.
Any strats in particular make Allarus that much better? I'm probably just being thick to be honest, but a few mild pointers wouldnt go amiss
Most notable is maybe "Auramite and Adamantium" for 1CP which makes Allarus (and Aquilons) ignore AP -1 and AP -2 which can be a truly massive boost in survivabilty. Allarus have access to the "inescapable vengeance" strat which lets them target characters in shooting, which is really nice with their dmg2 axes. Their innate deepstrike is very handy with the dread host stratagem "golden light of the moraides", which lets them charge with 3d6 picking the two highest.
All this combined with the new strats that all our units have access to like "arcane genetic alchemy" and "the emperors auspice" makes them better than wardens in almost every way.
Many of our best strats are in war of the spider, though our main codex also has very, very important strats like stooping dive, vexilla teleport homer or the aforementioned inescapable vengeance.
If you can't get your hands on war of the spider, I think goon hammer did a rundown of all the strats, shield host traits and relics from that book to give you an overview.
War of the spider really gave us a push though, strats like superior firing patterns single handedly made venatari viable for example. The archeotech ammunition strat made salvo launcher bikes viable and very dangerous to tanks for example.
IHateNids wrote: Ok.... I think I can get a copy of the book from a friend.
But I'm seeing this thing on Battlescribe, "Captain-Commander"
Would you think thats a better use of a CP than a second relic? I was only running Gatekeeper to make the mid-board dakka brick a bit more potent
its pretty useful, it adds one a set of not-quite warlord traits to the character. of note is "Swift as the eagle", which is can advance and charge, and +1 to adavance and charge rolls.
also of note is "ten thousand heros", for 1cp, which lets one other character pick a warlord trait, in addition to the actaul warlord.
Disgustingly Resilient is a flat -1 reduction of incoming damage, to a minimum of 1.
So....2 damage weapons will do 1 damage to a plague marine.
Actually. It means our D3 wound weaponry might start spiking in effectiveness for those 5-6 damage rolls, and the rest are going to be 1 damage.
It appears to be replacing the old FNP mechanic.
But. That does mean Accelerator Culverins, and Sag Guard 2 Damage Bolter Calivers are not particularly efficient at killing a plague marine.
With their terminators getting +1 wound, and damage reduction, you'll be needing flat 4 damage to drop them easily.
This means, roughly, Custodes will always suck against Death Guard. There's no way to effectively point out an army that is relying on d3s or damage 2 verse an army that hard counters that throughout the entire roster. If Death Guard is pointed at all aggressively, there's not a lot custodes are going to be able to do, now or in the future.
Disgustingly Resilient is a flat -1 reduction of incoming damage, to a minimum of 1.
So....2 damage weapons will do 1 damage to a plague marine.
Actually. It means our D3 wound weaponry might start spiking in effectiveness for those 5-6 damage rolls, and the rest are going to be 1 damage.
It appears to be replacing the old FNP mechanic.
But. That does mean Accelerator Culverins, and Sag Guard 2 Damage Bolter Calivers are not particularly efficient at killing a plague marine.
With their terminators getting +1 wound, and damage reduction, you'll be needing flat 4 damage to drop them easily.
This means, roughly, Custodes will always suck against Death Guard. There's no way to effectively point out an army that is relying on d3s or damage 2 verse an army that hard counters that throughout the entire roster. If Death Guard is pointed at all aggressively, there's not a lot custodes are going to be able to do, now or in the future.
Our galatus dread would in theory be good against plague marines with a bunch of S7 flat3dmg attacks and a double fist telemon would be awesome against 3wound terminators with its flat 4dmg fists.
All our dreads will effectively mulch through DG lists, and bikes will still drop Morty with relative efficiency. Our tanks and our Terminators still outclass theirs, we just can't run full Footstodes against them anymore.
There is no sky is falling moment here. They are good, but not that good. We still have multiple ways of, as Vegeta says: "Wrecking their gak."
GW wants to offload inventory cluttering up warehouses? Since their launch no one ever really took to the redemptor, I mean there were always a bunch of leftovers at any store I went to. I'm guessing this is GW wanting to clear the 2018 inventory out to make way for the new stuff.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: All our dreads will effectively mulch through DG lists, and bikes will still drop Morty with relative efficiency. Our tanks and our Terminators still outclass theirs, we just can't run full Footstodes against them anymore.
There is no sky is falling moment here. They are good, but not that good. We still have multiple ways of, as Vegeta says: "Wrecking their gak."
Dreadnoughts are not a good choice for killing plague marines. They don't actually do it cost effectively.
Durable infantry getting a minus 1 damage is pretty brutal.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: All our dreads will effectively mulch through DG lists, and bikes will still drop Morty with relative efficiency. Our tanks and our Terminators still outclass theirs, we just can't run full Footstodes against them anymore.
There is no sky is falling moment here. They are good, but not that good. We still have multiple ways of, as Vegeta says: "Wrecking their gak."
Dreadnoughts are not a good choice for killing plague marines. They don't actually do it cost effectively.
Durable infantry getting a minus 1 damage is pretty brutal.
So...Saggitarum with their flat 3 dmg shots? Seems like the next best thing, though I still think the galatus would be a good fit when you know you are up against death guard, he might not be super cost effective, but his weapon profile is really nice against plague marines and he now has quite a lot of attacks.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: All our dreads will effectively mulch through DG lists, and bikes will still drop Morty with relative efficiency. Our tanks and our Terminators still outclass theirs, we just can't run full Footstodes against them anymore.
There is no sky is falling moment here. They are good, but not that good. We still have multiple ways of, as Vegeta says: "Wrecking their gak."
Dreadnoughts are not a good choice for killing plague marines. They don't actually do it cost effectively.
Durable infantry getting a minus 1 damage is pretty brutal.
So...Saggitarum with their flat 3 dmg shots? Seems like the next best thing, though I still think the galatus would be a good fit when you know you are up against death guard, he might not be super cost effective, but his weapon profile is really nice against plague marines and he now has quite a lot of attacks.
And he will eat like 5 multimeltas to the face. Death guard are gonna be going pretty hard on blight haulers I predict.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: All our dreads will effectively mulch through DG lists, and bikes will still drop Morty with relative efficiency. Our tanks and our Terminators still outclass theirs, we just can't run full Footstodes against them anymore.
There is no sky is falling moment here. They are good, but not that good. We still have multiple ways of, as Vegeta says: "Wrecking their gak."
Dreadnoughts are not a good choice for killing plague marines. They don't actually do it cost effectively.
Durable infantry getting a minus 1 damage is pretty brutal.
So...Saggitarum with their flat 3 dmg shots? Seems like the next best thing, though I still think the galatus would be a good fit when you know you are up against death guard, he might not be super cost effective, but his weapon profile is really nice against plague marines and he now has quite a lot of attacks.
And he will eat like 5 multimeltas to the face. Death guard are gonna be going pretty hard on blight haulers I predict.
Dreadhost makes a comeback! I don't think Death Guard will spam Poxwalkers too much, unless they get a solid buff too, so the stuff they're using to screen (PM's) are things you'd like a Galatus to slam into. FGLTC, re-rolling 3D6, drop 2 or 3 of those as your deep strike component. Should clear out a fair amount.
It'll be up to the rest of your army, about 1,450 points if you took 3 Galatus (note: 2 is probably optimal) to deal with the rest.
See the beauty of the new Blood Angels codex is that we all missed how powerful that will be in exchange for DG, which still are just really hard to kill Chaos marines. I'm still worried about a bunch of two wound assault marines with their +1 to almost everything super chapter tactic.
I'm guessing until our codex drops in late 2021, I'm going with all bikes again. It's still not as cheese as the current lists we will be seeing in 9th.
Go full BN, shield guardians squads x3 two Biker captains, rest bikers.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: See the beauty of the new Blood Angels codex is that we all missed how powerful that will be in exchange for DG, which still are just really hard to kill Chaos marines. I'm still worried about a bunch of two wound assault marines with their +1 to almost everything super chapter tactic.
I'm guessing until our codex drops in late 2021, I'm going with all bikes again. It's still not as cheese as the current lists we will be seeing in 9th.
Go full BN, shield guardians squads x3 two Biker captains, rest bikers.
Consider Solar Watch for pure Jetbike lists. Advance+fire Hurricanes is incredibly powerful and intensely mobile. 21" movement on ObSec units, pumping out 100+ shots (even low S ones) that hit on 3's, re-rolling 1's is crazy board control. I actually mirror matched a Custodes terminator list with that setup and won by just avoiding him and playing the corner objectives.
I love bike lists because you control so much. Not just board space, but with your strats, you basically can choose when and where you fight, and how. Unless you are going against another high speed flier list (See: Blood Angels Assault lists/Eldar bikes) you can agressively push anywhere on the board, and your opponent HAS to respect you. You can't be deleted easily, and you need dedicated high value shooting to even threaten you, so basically I assume if we don't see more Terminator lists, 9th with be Bikes, bikes, bikes. Or until the nerf the crap out of SMs.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I recently saw a box of Sanuinary guard in the store I play at, and wanted to know if they would make an acceptable "counts as" for our Custodian Jetpacks? Paint the wings gold, etc.
Did anyone get a look at the new Drukari Incubi stat line? Without knowing the cost, they now have a basic unit with +2WS, and all their weapons are flat 2 damage, with 3 attacks each.
I feel like this is a pretty great indicator of where 9th is heading. Melee is now becoming a larger focus for a lot of armies. They want more assault focused games, less stand back and shoot. That bodes very well for our chosen faction.
Now for those much more verse in Dark Eldar, what are we needing to worry about with a group of 1 wound models with no invuln?
I think if you get charged by a unit of incubi you kinda need to worry due to flat D2, especially if they get buffed by drazhar with +1 to wound.
If you can tanglefoot them and counter charge they're dead. Incubi have a decent armor save, but I think a squad of our bikes would shred them with hurricane bolters due to sheer weight of dice and being able to wound on 3+, due to incubi still being T3.
So I think we definitely shouldn't ignore them as a potent melee threat, but they fold over pretty easily to both our melee and shooting.
This is just my opinion of course and take it with a grain of salt because the new dark eldar codex could change all of my assessments. Maybe incubi get an amazing strat that massively boosts their survivability for a turn....we'll just have to wait and see.
On an unrelated note, many of our (imo) coolest units got better with the FW update (venatari, telemon for example) but how do you guys feel about the coronus? I've been thinking about getting one for some time now, but I am not sure our faction benefits that much from transports. It's also rather epensive both money and points wise.
We have rather good delivery mechanisms with vexilla teleport homer and the dread host deep strike, would a transport offer any additional value?
I think if you get charged by a unit of incubi you kinda need to worry due to flat D2, especially if they get buffed by drazhar with +1 to wound.
If you can tanglefoot them and counter charge they're dead. Incubi have a decent armor save, but I think a squad of our bikes would shred them with hurricane bolters due to sheer weight of dice and being able to wound on 3+, due to incubi still being T3.
So I think we definitely shouldn't ignore them as a potent melee threat, but they fold over pretty easily to both our melee and shooting.
This is just my opinion of course and take it with a grain of salt because the new dark eldar codex could change all of my assessments. Maybe incubi get an amazing strat that massively boosts their survivability for a turn....we'll just have to wait and see.
On an unrelated note, many of our (imo) coolest units got better with the FW update (venatari, telemon for example) but how do you guys feel about the coronus? I've been thinking about getting one for some time now, but I am not sure our faction benefits that much from transports. It's also rather epensive both money and points wise.
We have rather good delivery mechanisms with vexilla teleport homer and the dread host deep strike, would a transport offer any additional value?
Honestly, outside of large games (3,000 points or more) I don't see transports working for Custodes. At least not the ones we have now. 250 for a Coronus, or 300 for a Landraider is silly. I'd rather have 5 footsloggers. The only way I see either working is if they had the old-school assault vehicle rules. What I'd really like to see is an open-topped version of the Pallas with a transport capacity of 4.
some points of note for us:
generally, they've added the cost of the default wargear onto the unit agian, so that the "Points a model" now is the cost to put that guy down with no upgrades
for example sheild cap has changed to 100pts, but thats just the cost of 95pt cap with a 5pt spear
guardian squads appear to be cheaper now. 45pts with spear, 52pts sword and shield. thats about 5pts cheaper unless i cant count.
Allarus are now 5pts more expensive, 70pts base. Wardens are also more, about 3 pts more.
on the other hand, vertus jetbikes are now only 85ps each, a drop of 10 points.
The points nerf to allarus had to happen. They would have been too good with the new NWSWF secondary.
A unit of 10 with spears at 650 pts just had to have a single one live to get you 5 points.
Now that same unit is 700pts, which puts them more in line with our other heavy lifting options.
Guard going down is great, bikes going down is great, and we can only hope that the vex gets his flag for free (as he was overcosted).
Also officially the ares/orion can be deployed on any map and not be useless for a turn. We had already come to that consensus here on dakka, but many did not agree.
On the flip side, our tanks get yet another nerf, not being able to use Vengence of the Machine Spirit strat anymore (its only useable by Ven Land Raiders). Pretty much killed them honestly. With the loss of rerolls incoming with our new book they are grossly inefficient in the current state of the game. Being able to shoot the main gun after getting blown up was really their only saving grace.
the drop in cost makes the special spear types on offer from FW a lot less competitive, as its 45 for a normal spearman and 55 for a Adrasite (flat damage 3 spear) and 60 for a Pyrithite (melta spear). Sagittarum guard also gain cost relative guardian spearmen (53 with misa), but they are different enough its not quite a straight comparison.
im mildly suprised by the raise to the Wardens, i was under the impression they they were kinda meh at 3ppm more than guardians, now they've paying 10 points over regular spearmen for.....what? a 6+FNP, one extra attack and a point of Ld? that seems a little steep, frankly.
the cheaper jetbikes is cool. saving 30 points of a squad of them is a non-trivial saving. hell, saving 12 odd points off a guardian trio will add up pretty quickly as well. Even with our high PPM costs, that starting to turn into a extra man or two into a squad.
ran some quick maths on my current (planned) 2k list. I reckon this saves me about 60-80 points form units dropping costs (assuming the standard is free). which is rather annoying, because if i had known that was coming i would have built my Aquillons with the Adrathic Destructors instead of the storm bolters. Oh, well.
Huh, I did not expect them to make dawneagle bikes cheaper, but I'll take it.
Also, am I missing something or is the new "while we stand we fight" secondary really good now with a large blob of allarus termis that you can then split up with unleash the lions? Correct me if I'm wrong here but after you split them up, you could just hide one single terminator of that original big unit and still score the 5 points...isnt that bonkers good?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: How many extra bikes does this shake out to in an all bike list? 1-2? Extra shields in an all shield list? guessing about 5-7?
If we're just spamming an Outrider:
Old Points: 1 Jetbike Captain and 19.2ish Jetbikes.
New Points: 1 Jetbike Captain and 21.5ish Jetbikes.
So a difference of about 2 Jetbikes. I imagine the major benefit will be allowing Jetbikes to more easily slot solid numbers into hybrid lists of Jetbikes + other Custodes rather than massively boosting pure Jetbikes.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: How many extra bikes does this shake out to in an all bike list? 1-2? Extra shields in an all shield list? guessing about 5-7?
If we're just spamming an Outrider:
Old Points: 1 Jetbike Captain and 19.2ish Jetbikes.
New Points: 1 Jetbike Captain and 21.5ish Jetbikes.
So a difference of about 2 Jetbikes. I imagine the major benefit will be allowing Jetbikes to more easily slot solid numbers into hybrid lists of Jetbikes + other Custodes rather than massively boosting pure Jetbikes.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: How many extra bikes does this shake out to in an all bike list? 1-2? Extra shields in an all shield list? guessing about 5-7?
If we're just spamming an Outrider:
Old Points: 1 Jetbike Captain and 19.2ish Jetbikes.
New Points: 1 Jetbike Captain and 21.5ish Jetbikes.
So a difference of about 2 Jetbikes. I imagine the major benefit will be allowing Jetbikes to more easily slot solid numbers into hybrid lists of Jetbikes + other Custodes rather than massively boosting pure Jetbikes.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: How many extra bikes does this shake out to in an all bike list? 1-2? Extra shields in an all shield list? guessing about 5-7?
If we're just spamming an Outrider:
Old Points: 1 Jetbike Captain and 19.2ish Jetbikes.
New Points: 1 Jetbike Captain and 21.5ish Jetbikes.
So a difference of about 2 Jetbikes. I imagine the major benefit will be allowing Jetbikes to more easily slot solid numbers into hybrid lists of Jetbikes + other Custodes rather than massively boosting pure Jetbikes.
Can I presume this is with zero Miseracordias?
Oh, yeah, no Misericordias.
Also gonna go out on a limb and say no Melta Rockets?
Confusion as to whether those Melta rocket's ever got the upgrade to melta weapons. I thought they did, because a dev said "All Melta Weapons" but it appears they have not. so Full Hurricanes?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: How many extra bikes does this shake out to in an all bike list? 1-2? Extra shields in an all shield list? guessing about 5-7?
If we're just spamming an Outrider:
Old Points: 1 Jetbike Captain and 19.2ish Jetbikes.
New Points: 1 Jetbike Captain and 21.5ish Jetbikes.
So a difference of about 2 Jetbikes. I imagine the major benefit will be allowing Jetbikes to more easily slot solid numbers into hybrid lists of Jetbikes + other Custodes rather than massively boosting pure Jetbikes.
Can I presume this is with zero Miseracordias?
Oh, yeah, no Misericordias.
Also gonna go out on a limb and say no Melta Rockets?
Confusion as to whether those Melta rocket's ever got the upgrade to melta weapons. I thought they did, because a dev said "All Melta Weapons" but it appears they have not. so Full Hurricanes?
The Salvo launcher was never a melta weapon. It just gets called that sometimes, because of the strat from war of the spider that let's you roll 2d6 pick the highest for the dmg and you also don't have to be in half range to do this(archeotech ammunitions).
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I swear there was a "Melta Missile" strat or something. Where am I getting that from, damnit.
The Salvo Launcher has 2 Profiles
Flakkburst (Blast d3, str 7, ap-1, d3 damage, +1 to hit vs fly)
Melta (1 shot, str 8, ap-4,, d6, reroll to wound vs vehicles)
Probably where it came from.
The Archeotech Munitions Stratagem lets you roll 2 dice for a weapon that has a random damage value, and select the greater.
So the 'melta missile' is a weird hybrid sort of thing.
Yes the melta missile name for the weapon profile is kinda misleading. I just meant that it never had the old melta rule, it just got a better version of that rule through the archeotech ammunition strat, which is what made them viable in the first place as before they were too unreliable.
I am guessing the missile came from the actual model? Where it's a missile pod/rack? Doesn't matter, my question has been answered, thank you to those who did. Did our Ares get changed at all? Or Sisters?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: How many extra bikes does this shake out to in an all bike list? 1-2? Extra shields in an all shield list? guessing about 5-7?
If we're just spamming an Outrider:
Old Points: 1 Jetbike Captain and 19.2ish Jetbikes.
New Points: 1 Jetbike Captain and 21.5ish Jetbikes.
So a difference of about 2 Jetbikes. I imagine the major benefit will be allowing Jetbikes to more easily slot solid numbers into hybrid lists of Jetbikes + other Custodes rather than massively boosting pure Jetbikes.
Can I presume this is with zero Miseracordias?
Oh, yeah, no Misericordias.
Also gonna go out on a limb and say no Melta Rockets?
Confusion as to whether those Melta rocket's ever got the upgrade to melta weapons. I thought they did, because a dev said "All Melta Weapons" but it appears they have not. so Full Hurricanes?
So I didn't see a new price for Salvos in the Munitorum Errata. Seems to be the same price regardless of loadouts still.
sprugly wrote: I believe wardens work out the same as their misericordia is included in their base cost.
Sprugly
ah, yes your right. still, my base point of them being 7-10 points more than a regular guardian still stands, as those stat increases are not really worth that much extra on our already high baseline stats.
I am guessing the missile came from the actual model? Where it's a missile pod/rack? Doesn't matter, my question has been answered, thank you to those who did. Did our Ares get changed at all? Or Sisters?
the missile launcher is part of the base plastic kit, and replaces the hurricane bolters in the front (it looks very simmilar, but its a cluster of 5 warheads not a cluster of 6 bolter barrels).
sisters of silence have had no points changes, all still the same cost. Ares is 450points still.
So apparently the different choices of vexilla for our vexillus praetor remain free on the official 40k app. And the vexillus remains at what, 85 points or something?(without the castellan axe equipped though I believe)
That seems too good to be true. Do you think they will amend it or did we just come out of these points updates extremely lucky?
I think there are a lot of errors, and we should hold off trusting any digital source until GW confirms it. Like the extra 50 points to all Baneblade variants.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I think there are a lot of errors, and we should hold off trusting any digital source until GW confirms it. Like the extra 50 points to all Baneblade variants.
You are right. Either way I am happy with the point updates even if we don't get to keep our super cheep vexillus praetor.
That does raise the question: What form would confirmation of a FAQ take? I don't think GW has ever FAQ'd a FAQ, other than a day 1 change/FAQ to the SM Supplements(?) that came out back in 8th. I don't think there are still CA's going on, but we might get some answer from their official twiiter/Facebook, although I doubt anyone has asked. No one cares about Custodes flags or Baneblades right now, given the changes to everything else.
Would it be too much of a TFG move to replace my Ares (counts as) with a Knight as my AT platform in an all Infantry list? I like the idea of an giant Golden Knight with AT guns dispensing hot death. Would this get me never invited to game night again?
In light of the Death Guard leaks today, I can say now I'm a bit worried. They have access to a lot of non-psychic phase mortal wounds (such as Eruption of Filth and Blight Bombardment). That will hurt quite a bit. Fleshmowers are also pretty potent and for 135 points seem like they'd bring down 2 Terminators per-combat, on average.
DP's with malefic talons also increased in power, with one DP being able to be S8 while also lowering toughness by 1 due to their new doctrine-esque ability. End result, that DP is wounding Custodes infantry on 2's with a flat 2 damage weapon.
Mortarion is also more fearsome than originally expected now that we see his warlord traits. He'll be T8 with -1 damage, a 5+++ and shuts off auras within 3" (meaning our HQ's have to hang back outside of combat to buff the combatants inside combat).
The Blightspawn with his flamer is also more deadly. With a Pathogen he can re-roll number of hits and get a permanent +1S.
I do not think DG is overpowered by any means, but our particular match-up against them is no longer about even. We are decided underdogs.
Well, according to the latest links, there can only be a SINGLE dp Per list now, so that's a big relief, also they completely gutted chaff spam, so our two biggest threats went away. As for Psyker defense, we have more than enough counters for those. And if you let their pskers suvive too long, I would tell you, don't do that.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Well, according to the latest links, there can only be a SINGLE dp Per list now, so that's a big relief, also they completely gutted chaff spam, so our two biggest threats went away. As for Psyker defense, we have more than enough counters for those. And if you let their pskers suvive too long, I would tell you, don't do that.
I was specifically referring to non-psychic MW. They have a lot of them.
I think DP's are just one per detachment, not one per army.
Audustum wrote: In light of the Death Guard leaks today, I can say now I'm a bit worried. They have access to a lot of non-psychic phase mortal wounds (such as Eruption of Filth and Blight Bombardment). That will hurt quite a bit. Fleshmowers are also pretty potent and for 135 points seem like they'd bring down 2 Terminators per-combat, on average.
DP's with malefic talons also increased in power, with one DP being able to be S8 while also lowering toughness by 1 due to their new doctrine-esque ability. End result, that DP is wounding Custodes infantry on 2's with a flat 2 damage weapon.
Mortarion is also more fearsome than originally expected now that we see his warlord traits. He'll be T8 with -1 damage, a 5+++ and shuts off auras within 3" (meaning our HQ's have to hang back outside of combat to buff the combatants inside combat).
The Blightspawn with his flamer is also more deadly. With a Pathogen he can re-roll number of hits and get a permanent +1S.
I do not think DG is overpowered by any means, but our particular match-up against them is no longer about even. We are decided underdogs.
That’s actually not how that WL trait works. It says units within 3” of the warlord do not get the benefit of auras from models from that unit’s army. So he doesn’t actually turn off auras like the AdMech copters do, he just prevents units within 3” of himself from benefitting from them.
Audustum wrote: In light of the Death Guard leaks today, I can say now I'm a bit worried. They have access to a lot of non-psychic phase mortal wounds (such as Eruption of Filth and Blight Bombardment). That will hurt quite a bit. Fleshmowers are also pretty potent and for 135 points seem like they'd bring down 2 Terminators per-combat, on average.
DP's with malefic talons also increased in power, with one DP being able to be S8 while also lowering toughness by 1 due to their new doctrine-esque ability. End result, that DP is wounding Custodes infantry on 2's with a flat 2 damage weapon.
Mortarion is also more fearsome than originally expected now that we see his warlord traits. He'll be T8 with -1 damage, a 5+++ and shuts off auras within 3" (meaning our HQ's have to hang back outside of combat to buff the combatants inside combat).
The Blightspawn with his flamer is also more deadly. With a Pathogen he can re-roll number of hits and get a permanent +1S.
I do not think DG is overpowered by any means, but our particular match-up against them is no longer about even. We are decided underdogs.
That’s actually not how that WL trait works. It says units within 3” of the warlord do not get the benefit of auras from models from that unit’s army. So he doesn’t actually turn off auras like the AdMech copters do, he just prevents units within 3” of himself from benefitting from them.
Eihnlazer wrote: The points nerf to allarus had to happen. They would have been too good with the new NWSWF secondary.
A unit of 10 with spears at 650 pts just had to have a single one live to get you 5 points.
Now that same unit is 700pts, which puts them more in line with our other heavy lifting options.
Guard going down is great, bikes going down is great, and we can only hope that the vex gets his flag for free (as he was overcosted).
Also officially the ares/orion can be deployed on any map and not be useless for a turn. We had already come to that consensus here on dakka, but many did not agree.
On the flip side, our tanks get yet another nerf, not being able to use Vengence of the Machine Spirit strat anymore (its only useable by Ven Land Raiders). Pretty much killed them honestly. With the loss of rerolls incoming with our new book they are grossly inefficient in the current state of the game. Being able to shoot the main gun after getting blown up was really their only saving grace.
"Nerfs to Allarus had to happen considering how GW is mega buffing everyone else's terminators" Ummm... what mate?
Releasing the lions for NWSWF is a hilariously niche tactic. Because you are taking your best hammer and combat unit that you have, by necessity, spent a good chunk of points on, and you need to, you know, take objectives and win the game and making them extremely inefficient and weak. For a whole 5 points. *Anime Wow*
Tiberias wrote: Huh, I did not expect them to make dawneagle bikes cheaper, but I'll take it.
Also, am I missing something or is the new "while we stand we fight" secondary really good now with a large blob of allarus termis that you can then split up with unleash the lions? Correct me if I'm wrong here but after you split them up, you could just hide one single terminator of that original big unit and still score the 5 points...isnt that bonkers good?
For a whole 5 points.
Guys, 5 points.
By ruining the combat efficiency of your hammer unit.
DO NOT DO THIS. You will lose all your games.
Eihnlazer wrote: You can run a spearhead with 20 allarus, 5 aquillons, a termy captain, and a vexilla (assuming the banner is free) or Greyfax.
It plays similar to the all shield guard list (which also got better).
Unleash the lions and hide. 20 allarus terminators hiding out of LOS will be basically unkillable as one man units.
WOO you get 15 points now. Too bad ya ain't killing gak by doing this and lose your games hard.
Audustum wrote: In light of the Death Guard leaks today, I can say now I'm a bit worried. They have access to a lot of non-psychic phase mortal wounds (such as Eruption of Filth and Blight Bombardment). That will hurt quite a bit. Fleshmowers are also pretty potent and for 135 points seem like they'd bring down 2 Terminators per-combat, on average.
DP's with malefic talons also increased in power, with one DP being able to be S8 while also lowering toughness by 1 due to their new doctrine-esque ability. End result, that DP is wounding Custodes infantry on 2's with a flat 2 damage weapon.
Mortarion is also more fearsome than originally expected now that we see his warlord traits. He'll be T8 with -1 damage, a 5+++ and shuts off auras within 3" (meaning our HQ's have to hang back outside of combat to buff the combatants inside combat).
The Blightspawn with his flamer is also more deadly. With a Pathogen he can re-roll number of hits and get a permanent +1S.
I do not think DG is overpowered by any means, but our particular match-up against them is no longer about even. We are decided underdogs.
I said earlier deathguard were looking to be a hard counter to us from the previews. So, yes. They gonna kick the poop out of us.
Now, that said, with their full rule reveal, wellp, DG using some of their plagues are broken AF. The movement and reroll denial ones for sure.
Everything this guy said, I didn't quote you because your post was massive as is.
But I'm, really sick of the rubber band Terminators we have. It literally feels month to month with these guys, and it's always they are trash or they are better than Aquilons, nothing inbetween. Really confused as to what GW expects our TERMINATOR CUSTODES units to be when the Primaris and Deathguard units get slightly lesser but just as hard hitting if not moreso, for roughly half the cost.
Eihnlazer wrote: lmao I can tell from your reply you arent actually doing well in competitive 9th.
15 points is huge considering your opponent cant get any good secondaries against you and primary caps out at 45.
But, your right that it does weaken our already subpar offence.
I get stratigos point, breaking up your allarus and hiding one model would only amount to 5 points of that secondary, though those 5 points are almost guaranteed. You'd have to keep your other 2 most expensive units alive as well to get 15
And if those other two units are also allarus squads....lets be honest, you probably won't get to play unleash the lions on all of them.
I disagree with his point however that if you do it for one squad it's a bad idea because it breaks up you hammer unit. If you play a big squad of allarus and deepstrike them turn two via teleport Homer or dread host deepstrike, you can't unleash them anyway. So that turn they are going to wreck something as a squad. Unleashing them the next turn and hiding one model of the squad can be a decent strategy imo depending on the match up.
Though for this strategy to work, it also largely depends on what your other two most expensive units are, because I don't think going 3 big squads of allarus is a good idea in general.
In the list i posted (which may or may not be the best way to take advantage of WWSWF), I had 2 units of 5 allarus and a unit of 5 aquillons that would have been the 3 units for the secondary.
You would start one unit of 5 on the board and immediately split them up, and have the other 2 units off the board (if dread host). If not dread host i would keep the second unit on the board and running up a flank.
Your opponent, knowing that they were worth points to you would then have to focus a chunk of his force to that flank and try to deal with them, leaving alot of his kill power away from the opposite side of the table.
Turn 2 comes around and you have options. You can either try to counter smash your opponents main force (that went for your second allarus unit) by dropping your aquillons on them, or go to the weak side, knowing the aquillons would wipe that side up and be hard to kill by the end of the game.
The second units of allarus could also split up (because they shouldnt have been completely wiped out in one turn between Auramite and steel and arcane genetic alchemy).
So now your opponent has to either deal with your whole army at close quarters for 4 turns, or reposition over the rest of the game to try and reclaim a table side you took (while leaving you 10 potential points alive).
Eihnlazer wrote: In the list i posted (which may or may not be the best way to take advantage of WWSWF), I had 2 units of 5 allarus and a unit of 5 aquillons that would have been the 3 units for the secondary.
You would start one unit of 5 on the board and immediately split them up, and have the other 2 units off the board (if dread host). If not dread host i would keep the second unit on the board and running up a flank.
Your opponent, knowing that they were worth points to you would then have to focus a chunk of his force to that flank and try to deal with them, leaving alot of his kill power away from the opposite side of the table.
Turn 2 comes around and you have options. You can either try to counter smash your opponents main force (that went for your second allarus unit) by dropping your aquillons on them, or go to the weak side, knowing the aquillons would wipe that side up and be hard to kill by the end of the game.
The second units of allarus could also split up (because they shouldnt have been completely wiped out in one turn between Auramite and steel and arcane genetic alchemy).
So now your opponent has to either deal with your whole army at close quarters for 4 turns, or reposition over the rest of the game to try and reclaim a table side you took (while leaving you 10 potential points alive).
I mean, that's a cool idea and all, but wouldn't such a list be rather one sided? I mean you have one secondary covered, but you have to consistently also score other secondaries and primaries. You are not mobile and you don't have any anti tank fire power or long range firer power. Sure your guys are tough, especially with stratagem support, but would that be a well rounded list? I'm honestly not sure, but like I said, I think it's a cool idea. If you personally have the models for it, I'd love to hear how it performed.
Eihnlazer wrote: lmao I can tell from your reply you arent actually doing well in competitive 9th.
15 points is huge considering your opponent cant get any good secondaries against you and primary caps out at 45.
But, your right that it does weaken our already subpar offence.
If you are taking three allarus squads... well your army has already failed at the conceptual stage for competitive gaming, but if you are doing that with the intention to unleash the lions on them, you are also failing on the table because it is a bad plan.
Unleashing ONE squad, which is all you should be taking most of the time, is 5 points. For neutering your hammer unit. It is a bad idea except in niche scenarios. It DOES NOT justify a point hike.
don't take allarus, take aquillons, they're superior for actually winning games with
So, on another note. What is, just hypothetically, our most efficient way to kill mortarion now that he is even more of a monster than before.
I am not very good at math hammer, but I would argue that considering he is -1 dmg now, really hurts aquilons in dealing with him with their dmg2 fists. So, could a double fist telemon with eternal penitent punch him to death? I don't think so actually, at least not in one round. A bunch of bikes and try to do some chip dmg with a million hurricane bolter shots and then charge him? I don't know...
So how do we deal with him? Ignore him and play the mission? Can we even afford to do that considering that he can dish out a lot of mortals each turn and is really nasty in combat?
Tiberias wrote: So, on another note. What is, just hypothetically, our most efficient way to kill mortarion now that he is even more of a monster than before.
I am not very good at math hammer, but I would argue that considering he is -1 dmg now, really hurts aquilons in dealing with him with their dmg2 fists. So, could a double fist telemon with eternal penitent punch him to death? I don't think so actually, at least not in one round. A bunch of bikes and try to do some chip dmg with a million hurricane bolter shots and then charge him? I don't know...
So how do we deal with him? Ignore him and play the mission? Can we even afford to do that considering that he can dish out a lot of mortals each turn and is really nasty in combat?
Death Guard is a hard counter, and mortarion is part of it.
I think I'd prefer bikes because of their inbuilt charge reroll and ability to get him from a distance. But Aquillons are probly the best mathmatically.
Tiberias wrote: So, on another note. What is, just hypothetically, our most efficient way to kill mortarion now that he is even more of a monster than before.
I am not very good at math hammer, but I would argue that considering he is -1 dmg now, really hurts aquilons in dealing with him with their dmg2 fists. So, could a double fist telemon with eternal penitent punch him to death? I don't think so actually, at least not in one round. A bunch of bikes and try to do some chip dmg with a million hurricane bolter shots and then charge him? I don't know...
So how do we deal with him? Ignore him and play the mission? Can we even afford to do that considering that he can dish out a lot of mortals each turn and is really nasty in combat?
I don't think you can ignore him. His board presence is too big.
Aquillons only deal 1 damage to him. Out. MW are the most efficient way to hurt him and we've got about zip there so skip. It takes about 550 Hurricane Bolter shots to kill him (over 3k points of Jetbikes).
Slamming 3 Achillus into him might not be a bad idea. I don't like using planes to hit him because their volume of fire is too low.
Tiberias wrote: So, on another note. What is, just hypothetically, our most efficient way to kill mortarion now that he is even more of a monster than before.
I am not very good at math hammer, but I would argue that considering he is -1 dmg now, really hurts aquilons in dealing with him with their dmg2 fists. So, could a double fist telemon with eternal penitent punch him to death? I don't think so actually, at least not in one round. A bunch of bikes and try to do some chip dmg with a million hurricane bolter shots and then charge him? I don't know...
So how do we deal with him? Ignore him and play the mission? Can we even afford to do that considering that he can dish out a lot of mortals each turn and is really nasty in combat?
Death Guard is a hard counter, and mortarion is part of it.
I think I'd prefer bikes because of their inbuilt charge reroll and ability to get him from a distance. But Aquillons are probly the best mathmatically.
Or, most most likely, shooting him with an ares.
A rare case of the d3 dmg lances actually being better than flat 2dmg weapons. Correct me if I'm wrong here but 60 hurricane bolter shots would do about 3 unsaved wounds on morty and that is before considering the 5+ feelnopain he still has. So yeah, weight of dice is a nice idea, but I don't see it working against him now that he is T8 also.
What about allarus with the strat to give them +1 to wound? Yes, you can and would do that on the aquilons also for sure, but with the castellan axes you have a chance to high roll on the dmg.
The best option against morty now is a VERY lucky Ares Gunship. If all the dice swing in their favor, the Ares is the only thing that can reliably drop him now, fast. Sorry to say it, but Morty is now basically a Shadowsword/Castellan Knight Level threat. HE's priority 1 for all competitive lists. Just his physical damage capability aside, Charging him is useless because he will usually fight first with that stupid ability. There is nothing short of a Custodes Aquillon squad of 5+ guys that can withstand 7 S16 AP4 D3+3 attacks. He will DELETE pretty much anything that tries to charge him. Better to go heavy long range. Storm cannons and up from max range. Ares now has to become the focus of our builds. We have knight level characters running around.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: The best option against morty now is a VERY lucky Ares Gunship. If all the dice swing in their favor, the Ares is the only thing that can reliably drop him now, fast. Sorry to say it, but Morty is now basically a Shadowsword/Castellan Knight Level threat. HE's priority 1 for all competitive lists. Just his physical damage capability aside, Charging him is useless because he will usually fight first with that stupid ability. There is nothing short of a Custodes Aquillon squad of 5+ guys that can withstand 7 S16 AP4 D3+3 attacks. He will DELETE pretty much anything that tries to charge him. Better to go heavy long range. Storm cannons and up from max range. Ares now has to become the focus of our builds. We have knight level characters running around.
I honestly don't want to seem pessimistic or overly critical or anything, but I don't understand how the ares would do the trick either. Isn't it just too few shots against T8 and 4++?
Edit: I get you said the ares would have to be lucky, but aren't we talking astronomical here? What I am saying is, that if you tech in an ares when you play against death guard, I would argue that it won't make its points back most of the time.
Almost nothing drops mortarion in one turn. Like, it's literal titans that are capable of it.
He's going to be the heart of many a DG list because he is that hard to kill and has that much effect on the board. He's pretty brutal. And it'll be half a year to almost a year before he gets an adjustment.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: The best option against morty now is a VERY lucky Ares Gunship. If all the dice swing in their favor, the Ares is the only thing that can reliably drop him now, fast. Sorry to say it, but Morty is now basically a Shadowsword/Castellan Knight Level threat. HE's priority 1 for all competitive lists. Just his physical damage capability aside, Charging him is useless because he will usually fight first with that stupid ability. There is nothing short of a Custodes Aquillon squad of 5+ guys that can withstand 7 S16 AP4 D3+3 attacks. He will DELETE pretty much anything that tries to charge him. Better to go heavy long range. Storm cannons and up from max range. Ares now has to become the focus of our builds. We have knight level characters running around.
I honestly don't want to seem pessimistic or overly critical or anything, but I don't understand how the ares would do the trick either. Isn't it just too few shots against T8 and 4++?
Edit: I get you said the ares would have to be lucky, but aren't we talking astronomical here? What I am saying is, that if you tech in an ares when you play against death guard, I would argue that it won't make its points back most of the time.
Well, I mean yeah, it's almost back to 1st turn losses of 8th edition here. Is the Ares cant shoot him with the main gun, and kill him with 1-3(2) shots of s14 ap4 d3+6, and he would have to fail his saves, we are pretty boned. Just do a low detachment with a Shadowsword? That can one shot him. I just feel like there is no point in charging him with his movement stopping aura. You pretty much have to kill him at range.
stratigo wrote: Almost nothing drops mortarion in one turn. Like, it's literal titans that are capable of it.
He's going to be the heart of many a DG list because he is that hard to kill and has that much effect on the board. He's pretty brutal. And it'll be half a year to almost a year before he gets an adjustment.
He's still not even the best thing about new DG.
I mean, armies are figuring out ways. Ultramarines and Deathwatch seem able to down him with 3 units of Eradicators/Hellblasters next to Guilliman or a Watch Master. Not the worst thing in the world. Others are going to pop up too.
The problem is for us Custodes because Death Guard has been redesigned as something we hate. It's super tanky, like us, but does a lot of damage, not like us. It also has a lot of non-psychic MW which is extra bad for us.
I still think Achillus Dread shooting + charging is likely the best solution. You'll need Eternal Penitent on all 3.
From what I read, he has a 6-9 inch aura that halves all movement, so you would need a 12 to charge him at 6 inches, and that makes it practically impossible to charge him inside of 9 inches. The only clear way I can see is either he does -1 to all damage, so our d3 weapons are basically pointless unless we roll 3s, and even then we would need too many. Even the Aquilons flat damage fists are ugly up close to him and he will destroy the entire squad in a single turn of cc. I feel like large squads of bikes with missiles, then charge?
stratigo wrote: Almost nothing drops mortarion in one turn. Like, it's literal titans that are capable of it.
He's going to be the heart of many a DG list because he is that hard to kill and has that much effect on the board. He's pretty brutal. And it'll be half a year to almost a year before he gets an adjustment.
He's still not even the best thing about new DG.
I mean, armies are figuring out ways. Ultramarines and Deathwatch seem able to down him with 3 units of Eradicators/Hellblasters next to Guilliman or a Watch Master. Not the worst thing in the world. Others are going to pop up too.
The problem is for us Custodes because Death Guard has been redesigned as something we hate. It's super tanky, like us, but does a lot of damage, not like us. It also has a lot of non-psychic MW which is extra bad for us.
I still think Achillus Dread shooting + charging is likely the best solution. You'll need Eternal Penitent on all 3.
So let me get this straight, you are suggesting to run 3 achillus in a list to down mortarion?! I'm in! That sounds freakin epic Would be kind of a meme list, but I like it. How would you consistently deliver 3 achillus though?
Anyway, my best friend started his death guard army end of last year, so I assume I'll be facing mortarion soon enough.
Another thing that is a real bummer for me personally are venatari against death guard. I love those guys and I love running them against space marines with their dmg2 pistols... Well yeah, against death guard they don't seem that appealing anymore suddenly.
A lot of death guard players apparently were upset about losing the 5+++, but honestly an army wide -1 dmg is just as nasty...in some matchups even more so imo.
Honestly, with the multitude of melee abilities that DG have now, I am really not interested in playing them as anything other than a top WAAC list. The DG vs the Custodes match is going to be ugly, long, and boring, where our melee fights might last the entire game, and our non-existent psyker presence means we can't shut down their spells. No thanks, pass. I'll just wait till our codex comes out. There are already 5 DG players in my FLGS, and dear god the state of DG right now makes me salty.
Math hammer: how many Telemon Fist punches would it take to reliably down Morty now?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Honestly, with the multitude of melee abilities that DG have now, I am really not interested in playing them as anything other than a top WAAC list. The DG vs the Custodes match is going to be ugly, long, and boring, where our melee fights might last the entire game, and our non-existent psyker presence means we can't shut down their spells. No thanks, pass. I'll just wait till our codex comes out. There are already 5 DG players in my FLGS, and dear god the state of DG right now makes me salty.
Math hammer: how many Telemon Fist punches would it take to reliably down Morty now?
It doesn't look appealing to fight them, but I will hold of judgment until I actually had a match against them. Regarding the Telemon: again I am not good at doing quick-maffshammer, so take this with a grain of salt, but I think a double fist telemon with eternal penitent would do about 3 unsaved wounds on morty. So with them -1dmg thats 9dmg and then he still has his 5+ feelnopain...so he'll take what...6-7dmg in total? I love double fist telemons to death, but that's not a great showing. Even if morty would fail more saves than average, I am doubtful that a double fist telemon could down him in one turn.
stratigo wrote: Almost nothing drops mortarion in one turn. Like, it's literal titans that are capable of it.
He's going to be the heart of many a DG list because he is that hard to kill and has that much effect on the board. He's pretty brutal. And it'll be half a year to almost a year before he gets an adjustment.
He's still not even the best thing about new DG.
I mean, armies are figuring out ways. Ultramarines and Deathwatch seem able to down him with 3 units of Eradicators/Hellblasters next to Guilliman or a Watch Master. Not the worst thing in the world. Others are going to pop up too.
The problem is for us Custodes because Death Guard has been redesigned as something we hate. It's super tanky, like us, but does a lot of damage, not like us. It also has a lot of non-psychic MW which is extra bad for us.
I still think Achillus Dread shooting + charging is likely the best solution. You'll need Eternal Penitent on all 3.
So let me get this straight, you are suggesting to run 3 achillus in a list to down mortarion?! I'm in! That sounds freakin epic Would be kind of a meme list, but I like it. How would you consistently deliver 3 achillus though?
Anyway, my best friend started his death guard army end of last year, so I assume I'll be facing mortarion soon enough.
Another thing that is a real bummer for me personally are venatari against death guard. I love those guys and I love running them against space marines with their dmg2 pistols... Well yeah, against death guard they don't seem that appealing anymore suddenly.
A lot of death guard players apparently were upset about losing the 5+++, but honestly an army wide -1 dmg is just as nasty...in some matchups even more so imo.
That's exactly what I was proposing.
Delivery method: Dread Host. 3D6, re-rolling charge with Eternal Penitent. As pointed out, Morty doesn't lower the charge range. He's also way too big and important on the frontlines to screen out for more than T1. Even screening on T2 the DG player is starting to cripple himself.
Due to delivery method, however, you should just put two Achillus because an Allarus Captain is the third since you can only Golden Light two Dreads. Put Twin Adrathic Destructors on both. The Captain gets Admonimortis (flat 3 damage) and Bane of Monsters (re-roll wounds against Vehicle/Monster). Math looks like this (leaving out Miasma of Pestilence):
8 shots of Twin Adrathic Destructor (combined both Dreads): Averages 1.73 damage on Morty (29% chance of 0).
4 shots of Dreadspear: Averages 1.30 damage (38% chance of 0).
2 shots of Castellan Axe: .22 average (80% chance of 0, but you might as well)
Ballistus Grenade Launcher: .11 average (90% chance of 0, but you might as well still)
Total shooting average: 3.36. Morty's down to about 15-16 on average, so some chip got through. Now we fight.
Achillus Melee is 6 attacks at S14 AP-3 1D3+3 damage base, hitting on 2's, wounding on 3's. Averages 4.44 damage on Morty (15% chance of 0, yes I took his -1 damage into account too). Multiply that by two and it's 8.88 damage. Pop Slayers of Nightmares on an Achillus though because it's 1CP and gives a boost (you can use it on Dreads too). With Slayers of Nightmares on one of the Achillus, that would add an extra two wounds to the total average pull, so about ~10 wounds from the two Achillus with Slayers.
Now to the Captain (save 1 CP to give the Captain a re-roll charge if you need it, puts him on the same reliability as the Dreads). He gets 5 attacks hitting on 2's, wounding on 3's re-rolling (Bane isn't an aura so Morty doesn't shut it off). He gets 2.5 damage average (14% chance of 0).
Total melee average: 12.5 damage.
Melee + shooting average: 15.86, rounding puts it at ~16. So 15-16 wounds from this three punch combo. It costs you 475 points and 6-7 CP so it's not a small investment, but you should be able to chip off the remaining 2-3 wounds of Morty's life from there (if we COULD get 3 Achillus on Morty it would increase the average to take him down).
If you change ONE Achillus to a Telemon, it reworks like this:
Telemon Shooting Average (double Caeustus):
4D3 Twin Plasma Injector: 1.11 (32% chance of 0)
Spiculus: 1.08 (33% chance of 0)
Average shooting: 2.19
Average Shooting combined with 1 Achillus and 1 Captain: 4.035. Morty's at ~14.
Telemon Melee Average: 6 attacks at S6 AP-3 flat 4 damage base = 8.33 average damage (standard deviation is ~4 though so it's swingy).
Average Melee combined with 1 Achillus and 1 Captain (Slayers of Nightmares on Achillus): ~16 damage average
Total Average: 4 + 16 = ~20 average.
With Miasma up, Morty probably survives unless it's 2 Telemons and a Captain Dread Hosting in. Without Miasma you can get away with 1 Telemon and 1 Achillus. 1 Telemon and 1 Achillus + the Captain will cost you 555 points. About comparable to Morty's 490.
EDIT: Keep in mind too that Morty's player can Counter-Offensive to interrupt you and try to break the combo by smashing a Dread. Counter-play is an option here.
@Audustum:
Thabks for doing the math! One thing though, the allarus captain with admonimortis wounds on 4s, except if you spend the +1to wound strat on him, but the achillus would be the better target for that though as you said. So the dmg of the captain might go down a smidge.
What about giving the allarus captain all seeing annihilator as his wl trait to give him an the achillus exploding 6s to hit? That might boost the melee dmg a bit.
One consideration in all of this is though you probably won't get all of that dmg through, even if you make all the charges and roll well, simply because of the fact that the DG player will 100% interrupt with morty and in all probability kill one of the achillus.
Tiberias wrote: @Audustum:
Thabks for doing the math! One thing though, the allarus captain with admonimortis wounds on 4s, except if you spend the +1to wound strat on him, but the achillus would be the better target for that though as you said. So the dmg of the captain might go down a smidge.
What about giving the allarus captain all seeing annihilator as his wl trait to give him an the achillus exploding 6s to hit? That might boost the melee dmg a bit.
One consideration in all of this is though you probably won't get all of that dmg through, even if you make all the charges and roll well, simply because of the fact that the DG player will 100% interrupt with morty and in all probability kill one of the achillus.
I wrote 3 but did the math with 4 I believes so math should be good, sorry!
I thought about Annihilator but Morty shuts off aura benefits within 3" so it won't help anyone, even the Captain. He doesn't reduce their range to 0, he just shuts them off. Bane gets by because it's not an aura at all.
Counter-offensive is the big wrinkle in any melee plan. You need to either get the DG player to use it somewhere else or be down on CP enough it's safe (unlikely).
Another math piece: 10 Jetbikes, on the charge (so they get to re-roll wounds), only do ~7-~8 wounds to him. That's 850 points of Jetbike. Not a good solution.
stratigo wrote: Almost nothing drops mortarion in one turn. Like, it's literal titans that are capable of it.
He's going to be the heart of many a DG list because he is that hard to kill and has that much effect on the board. He's pretty brutal. And it'll be half a year to almost a year before he gets an adjustment.
He's still not even the best thing about new DG.
I mean, armies are figuring out ways. Ultramarines and Deathwatch seem able to down him with 3 units of Eradicators/Hellblasters next to Guilliman or a Watch Master. Not the worst thing in the world. Others are going to pop up too.
The problem is for us Custodes because Death Guard has been redesigned as something we hate. It's super tanky, like us, but does a lot of damage, not like us. It also has a lot of non-psychic MW which is extra bad for us.
I still think Achillus Dread shooting + charging is likely the best solution. You'll need Eternal Penitent on all 3.
Goonhammer did the math, a fully buffed Ultramarine eradicator squad does not one round him with any regularity.
Tiberias wrote: @Audustum:
Thabks for doing the math! One thing though, the allarus captain with admonimortis wounds on 4s, except if you spend the +1to wound strat on him, but the achillus would be the better target for that though as you said. So the dmg of the captain might go down a smidge.
What about giving the allarus captain all seeing annihilator as his wl trait to give him an the achillus exploding 6s to hit? That might boost the melee dmg a bit.
One consideration in all of this is though you probably won't get all of that dmg through, even if you make all the charges and roll well, simply because of the fact that the DG player will 100% interrupt with morty and in all probability kill one of the achillus.
I wrote 3 but did the math with 4 I believes so math should be good, sorry!
I thought about Annihilator but Morty shuts off aura benefits within 3" so it won't help anyone, even the Captain. He doesn't reduce their range to 0, he just shuts them off. Bane gets by because it's not an aura at all.
Counter-offensive is the big wrinkle in any melee plan. You need to either get the DG player to use it somewhere else or be down on CP enough it's safe (unlikely).
Another math piece: 10 Jetbikes, on the charge (so they get to re-roll wounds), only do ~7-~8 wounds to him. That's 850 points of Jetbike. Not a good solution.
You are obviously right, I forgot about his ability to shut down auras.....damn he really nasty! Well again thanks for doing the math
stratigo wrote: Almost nothing drops mortarion in one turn. Like, it's literal titans that are capable of it.
He's going to be the heart of many a DG list because he is that hard to kill and has that much effect on the board. He's pretty brutal. And it'll be half a year to almost a year before he gets an adjustment.
He's still not even the best thing about new DG.
I mean, armies are figuring out ways. Ultramarines and Deathwatch seem able to down him with 3 units of Eradicators/Hellblasters next to Guilliman or a Watch Master. Not the worst thing in the world. Others are going to pop up too.
The problem is for us Custodes because Death Guard has been redesigned as something we hate. It's super tanky, like us, but does a lot of damage, not like us. It also has a lot of non-psychic MW which is extra bad for us.
I still think Achillus Dread shooting + charging is likely the best solution. You'll need Eternal Penitent on all 3.
Goonhammer did the math, a fully buffed Ultramarine eradicator squad does not one round him with any regularity.
Yeah, that's why I said 3 units of Eradicators and/or Hellblasters (max size squad, fully buffed). As an example, 15 Eradicators with a Watch Master (and Malleus on one set of 5, combat squad it out of a Kill Team) is:
8.89 average wounds for the Malleus 5.
13.83 average wounds for the non-Malleus 10 (and pick the protocol that lets them re-roll 1's to wound against LoW and Heavy Supports if facing Morty's, obviously).
This is conservative averaging as I did it assuming the Eradicators were outside 12" and rounded down (damage averages 5.5 per successful wound, pre-FNP, I lowered that to 4).
stratigo wrote: Almost nothing drops mortarion in one turn. Like, it's literal titans that are capable of it.
He's going to be the heart of many a DG list because he is that hard to kill and has that much effect on the board. He's pretty brutal. And it'll be half a year to almost a year before he gets an adjustment.
He's still not even the best thing about new DG.
I mean, armies are figuring out ways. Ultramarines and Deathwatch seem able to down him with 3 units of Eradicators/Hellblasters next to Guilliman or a Watch Master. Not the worst thing in the world. Others are going to pop up too.
The problem is for us Custodes because Death Guard has been redesigned as something we hate. It's super tanky, like us, but does a lot of damage, not like us. It also has a lot of non-psychic MW which is extra bad for us.
I still think Achillus Dread shooting + charging is likely the best solution. You'll need Eternal Penitent on all 3.
Goonhammer did the math, a fully buffed Ultramarine eradicator squad does not one round him with any regularity.
Yeah, that's why I said 3 units of Eradicators and/or Hellblasters (max size squad, fully buffed). As an example, 15 Eradicators with a Watch Master (and Malleus on one set of 5, combat squad it out of a Kill Team) is:
8.89 average wounds for the Malleus 5.
13.83 average wounds for the non-Malleus 10 (and pick the protocol that lets them re-roll 1's to wound against LoW and Heavy Supports if facing Morty's, obviously).
This is conservative averaging as I did it assuming the Eradicators were outside 12" and rounded down (damage averages 5.5 per successful wound, pre-FNP, I lowered that to 4).
Three units is overkill for anything else though and is leaving your list dramatically vulnerable in other ways
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Didn't I read somewhere that Morty has a "always fight first" ability or stratagem, that basically allows him to straight up slaughter chargers?
Not that I heard, but if a Blightspawn is nearby he has an aura to make chargers fight last (some kind of noxious stench).
stratigo wrote: Almost nothing drops mortarion in one turn. Like, it's literal titans that are capable of it.
He's going to be the heart of many a DG list because he is that hard to kill and has that much effect on the board. He's pretty brutal. And it'll be half a year to almost a year before he gets an adjustment.
He's still not even the best thing about new DG.
I mean, armies are figuring out ways. Ultramarines and Deathwatch seem able to down him with 3 units of Eradicators/Hellblasters next to Guilliman or a Watch Master. Not the worst thing in the world. Others are going to pop up too.
The problem is for us Custodes because Death Guard has been redesigned as something we hate. It's super tanky, like us, but does a lot of damage, not like us. It also has a lot of non-psychic MW which is extra bad for us.
I still think Achillus Dread shooting + charging is likely the best solution. You'll need Eternal Penitent on all 3.
Goonhammer did the math, a fully buffed Ultramarine eradicator squad does not one round him with any regularity.
Yeah, that's why I said 3 units of Eradicators and/or Hellblasters (max size squad, fully buffed). As an example, 15 Eradicators with a Watch Master (and Malleus on one set of 5, combat squad it out of a Kill Team) is:
8.89 average wounds for the Malleus 5.
13.83 average wounds for the non-Malleus 10 (and pick the protocol that lets them re-roll 1's to wound against LoW and Heavy Supports if facing Morty's, obviously).
This is conservative averaging as I did it assuming the Eradicators were outside 12" and rounded down (damage averages 5.5 per successful wound, pre-FNP, I lowered that to 4).
Three units is overkill for anything else though and is leaving your list dramatically vulnerable in other ways
I am getting into Deathwatch and I found a big squad of Eradicators + Plasma Inceptors + Hellblasters pretty affordable.
How does a squad 7 of missile bikes with a Captain that has Lockwarden (-1 to all saves) do against Morty? I feel like a ton of S8 D6 shots forcing him to take 5++ Invuln saves would at least be better than any other shooting....If my math hammer is correct that's 9 damage in one round of shooting. If they charge after that, that is 9 more damage. Lock Warden really messes up his day.
EDIT: Forgot the FNP, that drops it to 12 total wounds. My bad.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: How does a squad 7 of missile bikes with a Captain that has Lockwarden (-1 to all saves) do against Morty? I feel like a ton of S8 D6 shots forcing him to take 5++ Invuln saves would at least be better than any other shooting....If my math hammer is correct that's 9 damage in one round of shooting. If they charge after that, that is 9 more damage. Lock Warden really messes up his day.
EDIT: Forgot the FNP, that drops it to 12 total wounds. My bad.
My mathammer says the 8 Jetbikes will deal, on average, 3.8. Lockwarden only affects the warlord's attacks, unfortunately.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: How does a squad 7 of missile bikes with a Captain that has Lockwarden (-1 to all saves) do against Morty? I feel like a ton of S8 D6 shots forcing him to take 5++ Invuln saves would at least be better than any other shooting....If my math hammer is correct that's 9 damage in one round of shooting. If they charge after that, that is 9 more damage. Lock Warden really messes up his day.
EDIT: Forgot the FNP, that drops it to 12 total wounds. My bad.
My mathammer says the 8 Jetbikes will deal, on average, 3.8. Lockwarden only affects the warlord's attacks, unfortunately.
Thank you! you just saved me from a very ugly loss at the hands of misunderstanding a rule. I thought it was all attacks against a model targeted by the lock warden. oh well!
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: How does a squad 7 of missile bikes with a Captain that has Lockwarden (-1 to all saves) do against Morty? I feel like a ton of S8 D6 shots forcing him to take 5++ Invuln saves would at least be better than any other shooting....If my math hammer is correct that's 9 damage in one round of shooting. If they charge after that, that is 9 more damage. Lock Warden really messes up his day.
EDIT: Forgot the FNP, that drops it to 12 total wounds. My bad.
My mathammer says the 8 Jetbikes will deal, on average, 3.8. Lockwarden only affects the warlord's attacks, unfortunately.
Thank you! you just saved me from a very ugly loss at the hands of misunderstanding a rule. I thought it was all attacks against a model targeted by the lock warden. oh well!
Glad to help and good luck! Let us know how it goes!
How many wounds would get through on a Death Strike With Vortex Missile Strat, against Morty? Does he count as Titanic?
Morty does not count as Titanic (keyword).
You sure pick interesting ones!
3D6 shots averages 12 shots. BS4+ means 6 hits (assuming Miasma is not cast on Morty). Vortex Missile adds 3 more hits for 9 total. Morty's FNP takes 3 off. 6 MW get through. You then have a 1 in 6 chance of doing 1D6 more MW.
3 Deathstrikes would almost get him, on average. 6 MW from the Vortex Missile one. 8 from the combined other 2. Gives you 14W and 3D6 to fish for a 6 for 1D6 more MW.
It's silly how hard Morty is to kill now. It's almost DISGUSTING. Buy seriously, without the Ares, our Bikes with missiles might be the only option. I hope Burst missile net gets some sort of buff, that would almost make it worth it. How do our dick bikes with the lasers do?
So..a few days ago I had a battle vs a friends Tempestus Scions...I got completely slaughtered and thought to myself "arent Custodes supposed to be top tier and Astra kinda bad" but maybe it was just bad playing on my part.
Anyway these were the forces:
1500p game, Surround and destroy
AC Patrol Shadowkeepers:
1 Shieldcaptain on dawneagle
4 Custodians with S/B
3 Vertus Praetors (2 with Hurricane stormbolters, 1 with salvo-launcher)
1 Telemon with 2 Arachnus
1 Contemptor Galatus
3 Aquilon with twin adrathic/solerite
+ Agents of the Imperium 1 Vindicare assassin
vs
Astra Battalion:
133rd Lambdan Lions
Agents of the imperium:Lord Hector Rex
Tempestor Prime x 2
Scions
5xScions with frag/krak + hot-shot lasgun
4xScions with frak/krak + plasma gun
1 Tempestor with hot-shot las pistol
Scions
5xScions with frag/krak + hot-shot lasgun
4xScions with frak/krak + hot-shot volley gun
1 Tempestor with hot-shot las pistol
Scions
4xScions with frag/krak + hot-shot lasgun
1 Tempestor with hot-shot las pistol
Astropath
Command Squad
4xScions with frak/krak + hot-shot volley gun
Valkyrie with Multilaser/hellstrike missiles/Advanced Countermeasures/heavy Boltersx4
Taurox Prime w Gatling + hot -shot volley guns
Taurox Prime w Taurox Missile Launcher + 2 Autocannons
Taurox Prime w Taurox Missile Launcher + 2 Autocannons
+
Astra Patrol Detachment
Tempestor Prime
Scions
5xScions with frag/krak + hot-shot lasgun
4xScions with frag/krak + meltagun
1 Tempestor with hot-shot las pistol
Scions
5xScions with frag/krak + hot-shot lasgun
4xScions with frag/krak + meltagun
1 Tempestor with hot-shot las pistol
Command Squad
4xScions with frag/krak + meltagun
So, he gets first turn, flies his valkyrie into my deployment zone and drops a squad next to my Telemon standing on one of the objectives, shoots at him with the Valkyrie, but only manages to do 1 wound,
then he takes a few potshots at my vindicare with his vehicles but only manages to wound him slightly. All my other units were hiding or out of range.
My turn my army moved as far as they could in the movement turn but have no good targets since all are hiding or are in the tauroxes
I unload on the valkyrie with the telemon taking it to 3 wounds and not having los on any char with my vindicare, shoots penetrator rounds at valkyrie taking it to one wound. Telemon and guardians cant move since they need to stay on the objectives
Second turn the carnage begins, he flies out of the battlefield with the 1-wound Valkyrie, deep strikes in the command squads close to my telemon and the rest unload from the tauroxes close to my biker squads. He unloads on my Telemon with 8 meltaguns, BS 3 rerolling 1s, rerolling wounds promptly killing it, and 4 plasma rapidfire + 4 meltas and a gakload of hot-las on bikers, killing all of them.
By now he had already won
my turn, im left with 4 guardians on one objective, the galatus and shield-captain charging forward and deep-striking in my aquilons, but having to do it close to the tauroxes out of range of the auspex scan possible squads. I managed to kill one of them, Shield-captain attacks Hector but fails to kill him
Galatus fails charge against one Taurox.
Anyways, the battle was over, since he could just take his time falling back in his movement phase and then shooting my guys down
So, how the heck do you deal with that amount of alpha strike, high strength, at least -3 AP, high dmg shooting as custodes? At the same time having to hold objectives etc. My imperial knights have also struggled against this force.
Totto wrote: So..a few days ago I had a battle vs a friends Tempestus Scions...I got completely slaughtered and thought to myself "arent Custodes supposed to be top tier and Astra kinda bad" but maybe it was just bad playing on my part.
Anyway these were the forces:
1500p game, Surround and destroy
AC Patrol Shadowkeepers:
1 Shieldcaptain on dawneagle
4 Custodians with S/B
3 Vertus Praetors (2 with Hurricane stormbolters, 1 with salvo-launcher)
1 Telemon with 2 Arachnus
1 Contemptor Galatus
3 Aquilon with twin adrathic/solerite
+ Agents of the Imperium 1 Vindicare assassin
vs
Astra Battalion:
133rd Lambdan Lions
Agents of the imperium:Lord Hector Rex
Tempestor Prime x 2
Scions
5xScions with frag/krak + hot-shot lasgun
4xScions with frak/krak + plasma gun
1 Tempestor with hot-shot las pistol
Scions
5xScions with frag/krak + hot-shot lasgun
4xScions with frak/krak + hot-shot volley gun
1 Tempestor with hot-shot las pistol
Scions
4xScions with frag/krak + hot-shot lasgun
1 Tempestor with hot-shot las pistol
Astropath
Command Squad
4xScions with frak/krak + hot-shot volley gun
Valkyrie with Multilaser/hellstrike missiles/Advanced Countermeasures/heavy Boltersx4
Taurox Prime w Gatling + hot -shot volley guns
Taurox Prime w Taurox Missile Launcher + 2 Autocannons
Taurox Prime w Taurox Missile Launcher + 2 Autocannons
+
Astra Patrol Detachment
Tempestor Prime
Scions
5xScions with frag/krak + hot-shot lasgun
4xScions with frag/krak + meltagun
1 Tempestor with hot-shot las pistol
Scions
5xScions with frag/krak + hot-shot lasgun
4xScions with frag/krak + meltagun
1 Tempestor with hot-shot las pistol
Command Squad
4xScions with frag/krak + meltagun
So, he gets first turn, flies his valkyrie into my deployment zone and drops a squad next to my Telemon standing on one of the objectives, shoots at him with the Valkyrie, but only manages to do 1 wound,
then he takes a few potshots at my vindicare with his vehicles but only manages to wound him slightly. All my other units were hiding or out of range.
My turn my army moved as far as they could in the movement turn but have no good targets since all are hiding or are in the tauroxes
I unload on the valkyrie with the telemon taking it to 3 wounds and not having los on any char with my vindicare, shoots penetrator rounds at valkyrie taking it to one wound. Telemon and guardians cant move since they need to stay on the objectives
Second turn the carnage begins, he flies out of the battlefield with the 1-wound Valkyrie, deep strikes in the command squads close to my telemon and the rest unload from the tauroxes close to my biker squads. He unloads on my Telemon with 8 meltaguns, BS 3 rerolling 1s, rerolling wounds promptly killing it, and 4 plasma rapidfire + 4 meltas and a gakload of hot-las on bikers, killing all of them.
By now he had already won
my turn, im left with 4 guardians on one objective, the galatus and shield-captain charging forward and deep-striking in my aquilons, but having to do it close to the tauroxes out of range of the auspex scan possible squads. I managed to kill one of them, Shield-captain attacks Hector but fails to kill him
Galatus fails charge against one Taurox.
Anyways, the battle was over, since he could just take his time falling back in his movement phase and then shooting my guys down
So, how the heck do you deal with that amount of alpha strike, high strength, at least -3 AP, high dmg shooting as custodes? At the same time having to hold objectives etc. My imperial knights have also struggled against this force.
It's tough to comment on one battle as far as play goes, but it seems you got a little unlucky on the Telemon dying to 8 melta guns. The Shadow keeper strat and/or Emperors Auspice would've saved him for sure.
As far as your list goes, some of the units seem a bit toothless. Telemon and Shield Guard are good, but your Terminators and bike squad at 3 men each just won't do much. The are your hammer units and should wreck whatever they charge, as well as take a bit of punishment to knock out. A 3 man unit is not worth using defensive strats on and I find they tend to be easy to wipe out.
I would bump the terminators up to 5 and take a vexilla with the intent to teleport homer them. That way they will get in a garunteed charge and 5 termies should smash up anything. Lose the Vindicate for sure, they suck. Perhaps dump the bikes or the Galatus to allow points to bulk out the termies.
Vex is definitely worth taking in any list with terminators and even some without atm with his price reduction.
He was too expensive before but i wasnt expecting them to just give him the banner for free. Now the magnifica is worth it again for bike and dread heavy lists, where the +1 attack you take on infantry heavy lists.
Generally, unless you are expecting to do a lot of warlord popping,, Allarus are better than Vindicare for killing characters, better to take them and let your opponent deal with them. There is no really good synegy atm with Custodes and Any assassin. All our built in units do the job better.
Is it just me or did your opponent take a purposely weak list with Command squads that were just las guns? Why not go melta/plasma?
Anyway, your list is a little all over the place, you may be going foTAC, but you are left as others have said, toothless.
Hope you had a good game at least.
EDIT:
And remember, after the battle, you were still declared the winner on imperial records, and his whole army was summarily executed.
Totto wrote: So..a few days ago I had a battle vs a friends Tempestus Scions...I got completely slaughtered and thought to myself "arent Custodes supposed to be top tier and Astra kinda bad" but maybe it was just bad playing on my part.
Anyway these were the forces:
1500p game, Surround and destroy
AC Patrol Shadowkeepers:
1 Shieldcaptain on dawneagle
4 Custodians with S/B
3 Vertus Praetors (2 with Hurricane stormbolters, 1 with salvo-launcher)
1 Telemon with 2 Arachnus
1 Contemptor Galatus
3 Aquilon with twin adrathic/solerite
+ Agents of the Imperium 1 Vindicare assassin
vs
Astra Battalion:
133rd Lambdan Lions
Agents of the imperium:Lord Hector Rex
Tempestor Prime x 2
Scions
5xScions with frag/krak + hot-shot lasgun
4xScions with frak/krak + plasma gun
1 Tempestor with hot-shot las pistol
Scions
5xScions with frag/krak + hot-shot lasgun
4xScions with frak/krak + hot-shot volley gun
1 Tempestor with hot-shot las pistol
Scions
4xScions with frag/krak + hot-shot lasgun
1 Tempestor with hot-shot las pistol
Astropath
Command Squad
4xScions with frak/krak + hot-shot volley gun
Valkyrie with Multilaser/hellstrike missiles/Advanced Countermeasures/heavy Boltersx4
Taurox Prime w Gatling + hot -shot volley guns
Taurox Prime w Taurox Missile Launcher + 2 Autocannons
Taurox Prime w Taurox Missile Launcher + 2 Autocannons
+
Astra Patrol Detachment
Tempestor Prime
Scions
5xScions with frag/krak + hot-shot lasgun
4xScions with frag/krak + meltagun
1 Tempestor with hot-shot las pistol
Scions
5xScions with frag/krak + hot-shot lasgun
4xScions with frag/krak + meltagun
1 Tempestor with hot-shot las pistol
Command Squad
4xScions with frag/krak + meltagun
So, he gets first turn, flies his valkyrie into my deployment zone and drops a squad next to my Telemon standing on one of the objectives, shoots at him with the Valkyrie, but only manages to do 1 wound,
then he takes a few potshots at my vindicare with his vehicles but only manages to wound him slightly. All my other units were hiding or out of range.
My turn my army moved as far as they could in the movement turn but have no good targets since all are hiding or are in the tauroxes
I unload on the valkyrie with the telemon taking it to 3 wounds and not having los on any char with my vindicare, shoots penetrator rounds at valkyrie taking it to one wound. Telemon and guardians cant move since they need to stay on the objectives
Second turn the carnage begins, he flies out of the battlefield with the 1-wound Valkyrie, deep strikes in the command squads close to my telemon and the rest unload from the tauroxes close to my biker squads. He unloads on my Telemon with 8 meltaguns, BS 3 rerolling 1s, rerolling wounds promptly killing it, and 4 plasma rapidfire + 4 meltas and a gakload of hot-las on bikers, killing all of them.
By now he had already won
my turn, im left with 4 guardians on one objective, the galatus and shield-captain charging forward and deep-striking in my aquilons, but having to do it close to the tauroxes out of range of the auspex scan possible squads. I managed to kill one of them, Shield-captain attacks Hector but fails to kill him
Galatus fails charge against one Taurox.
Anyways, the battle was over, since he could just take his time falling back in his movement phase and then shooting my guys down
So, how the heck do you deal with that amount of alpha strike, high strength, at least -3 AP, high dmg shooting as custodes? At the same time having to hold objectives etc. My imperial knights have also struggled against this force.
Emperor's Auspice the melta on your Telemon is my first recommendation (FYI, even without Emperor's Auspice, 8 Melta shots, re-rolling 1's to Hit, in melta range, is only 5-6 wounds average on a Telemon, anything more is bad luck).
My second is don't deep strike units UNLESS:
1. You have a source of re-roll charges at the very minimum (Dread Host).
2. You want the unit's shooting more than it's melee (Allarus against characters).
3. It's a throwaway to score something like deploy scramblers (we don't really have these).
My third recommendation: Take more Jetbikes over Terminators. Your opponent is fond of flying vehicles it seems. Jetbikes can charge those and make them pay. Drop all Terminators from the list for Jetbikes.
My fourth recommendation: Decide on a role for your Jetbikes! Don't split them! If you want them to kill the flyers, give them ALL salvo-missiles and have them shoot/charge flyers. If you want them to harvest infantry and charge whatever, give them ALL hurricane bolters and wipe his squads off the board. Remember, Salvo missiles get +1 to Hit on the flyers (negating their hard to hit ability).
My fifth recommendation: Bring a -1 to Hit flag. It's super important against Guard (Tau too).
My sixth recommendation: Don't forget Arcane Genetic Alchemy (usable on Infantry AND Jetbikes). If your opponent has a blizzard of high strength weapons, throw this on a target (and Emperor's Auspice on a DIFFERENT target if it needs protection).
My seventh recommendation: Since I recommend taking Jetbikes, go Solar Watch over Shadowkeepers. Put the Jetbike Captain with them. 21" Move+Advance and shooting on 3's, re-rolling 1's, with a big squad can punch serious holes T1. There's not much that can hide from it.
My eighth recommendation: Choose objectives wisely. You want Bring It Down (because of his vehicles), Grind Them Down/Thin Their Ranks and Map-Specific/Domination/Linebreaker depending on map.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: It's silly how hard Morty is to kill now. It's almost DISGUSTING. Buy seriously, without the Ares, our Bikes with missiles might be the only option. I hope Burst missile net gets some sort of buff, that would almost make it worth it. How do our dick bikes with the lasers do?
Not great. 1 Agamatus with Twin-Las Pulsar averages ~.65-.80 wounds on Morty (49% chance of 0). 10 them would average ~6-8 wounds (and cost about 1,000 points).
Man, I am beginning to think the best way to defeat Morty is to make him irrelevent? Keep away with Jetbikes and Missiles? Just keep shooting and running away from him. He can't catch anything with his movement speed, except for infantry. So our tanks and bikes should be able to just kite him around the table? Obviously this means no infantry bare minimum, no dreads, just flyers. The Ares would be good for an all flyers list.
2x bike captains salvo launchers
2x5 bikes Salvo launchers
Ares gunship
2x3 sag guard
1x4 sag guard
1980? Is there a better way to optimize a flyer list?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Man, I am beginning to think the best way to defeat Morty is to make him irrelevent? Keep away with Jetbikes and Missiles? Just keep shooting and running away from him. He can't catch anything with his movement speed, except for infantry. So our tanks and bikes should be able to just kite him around the table? Obviously this means no infantry bare minimum, no dreads, just flyers. The Ares would be good for an all flyers list.
2x bike captains salvo launchers
2x5 bikes Salvo launchers
Ares gunship
2x3 sag guard
1x4 sag guard
1980? Is there a better way to optimize a flyer list?
The trick is, indeed, looking to kill the army around morty. You can hold him up with a fair sized shield squad with some Strat support. Not for too long because he pumps mortals as well as just damage.
Thing is, he's fast enough to, uh, not get caught by foot guard.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Generally, unless you are expecting to do a lot of warlord popping,, Allarus are better than Vindicare for killing characters, better to take them and let your opponent deal with them. There is no really good synegy atm with Custodes and Any assassin. All our built in units do the job better.
Is it just me or did your opponent take a purposely weak list with Command squads that were just las guns? Why not go melta/plasma?
Anyway, your list is a little all over the place, you may be going foTAC, but you are left as others have said, toothless.
Hope you had a good game at least.
EDIT:
And remember, after the battle, you were still declared the winner on imperial records, and his whole army was summarily executed.
Totto wrote: So..a few days ago I had a battle vs a friends Tempestus Scions...I got completely slaughtered and thought to myself "arent Custodes supposed to be top tier and Astra kinda bad" but maybe it was just bad playing on my part.
Anyway these were the forces:
1500p game, Surround and destroy
AC Patrol Shadowkeepers:
1 Shieldcaptain on dawneagle
4 Custodians with S/B
3 Vertus Praetors (2 with Hurricane stormbolters, 1 with salvo-launcher)
1 Telemon with 2 Arachnus
1 Contemptor Galatus
3 Aquilon with twin adrathic/solerite
+ Agents of the Imperium 1 Vindicare assassin
vs
Astra Battalion:
133rd Lambdan Lions
Agents of the imperium:Lord Hector Rex
Tempestor Prime x 2
Scions
5xScions with frag/krak + hot-shot lasgun
4xScions with frak/krak + plasma gun
1 Tempestor with hot-shot las pistol
Scions
5xScions with frag/krak + hot-shot lasgun
4xScions with frak/krak + hot-shot volley gun
1 Tempestor with hot-shot las pistol
Scions
4xScions with frag/krak + hot-shot lasgun
1 Tempestor with hot-shot las pistol
Astropath
Command Squad
4xScions with frak/krak + hot-shot volley gun
Valkyrie with Multilaser/hellstrike missiles/Advanced Countermeasures/heavy Boltersx4
Taurox Prime w Gatling + hot -shot volley guns
Taurox Prime w Taurox Missile Launcher + 2 Autocannons
Taurox Prime w Taurox Missile Launcher + 2 Autocannons
+
Astra Patrol Detachment
Tempestor Prime
Scions
5xScions with frag/krak + hot-shot lasgun
4xScions with frag/krak + meltagun
1 Tempestor with hot-shot las pistol
Scions
5xScions with frag/krak + hot-shot lasgun
4xScions with frag/krak + meltagun
1 Tempestor with hot-shot las pistol
Command Squad
4xScions with frag/krak + meltagun
So, he gets first turn, flies his valkyrie into my deployment zone and drops a squad next to my Telemon standing on one of the objectives, shoots at him with the Valkyrie, but only manages to do 1 wound,
then he takes a few potshots at my vindicare with his vehicles but only manages to wound him slightly. All my other units were hiding or out of range.
My turn my army moved as far as they could in the movement turn but have no good targets since all are hiding or are in the tauroxes
I unload on the valkyrie with the telemon taking it to 3 wounds and not having los on any char with my vindicare, shoots penetrator rounds at valkyrie taking it to one wound. Telemon and guardians cant move since they need to stay on the objectives
Second turn the carnage begins, he flies out of the battlefield with the 1-wound Valkyrie, deep strikes in the command squads close to my telemon and the rest unload from the tauroxes close to my biker squads. He unloads on my Telemon with 8 meltaguns, BS 3 rerolling 1s, rerolling wounds promptly killing it, and 4 plasma rapidfire + 4 meltas and a gakload of hot-las on bikers, killing all of them.
By now he had already won
my turn, im left with 4 guardians on one objective, the galatus and shield-captain charging forward and deep-striking in my aquilons, but having to do it close to the tauroxes out of range of the auspex scan possible squads. I managed to kill one of them, Shield-captain attacks Hector but fails to kill him
Galatus fails charge against one Taurox.
Anyways, the battle was over, since he could just take his time falling back in his movement phase and then shooting my guys down
So, how the heck do you deal with that amount of alpha strike, high strength, at least -3 AP, high dmg shooting as custodes? At the same time having to hold objectives etc. My imperial knights have also struggled against this force.
Emperor's Auspice the melta on your Telemon is my first recommendation (FYI, even without Emperor's Auspice, 8 Melta shots, re-rolling 1's to Hit, in melta range, is only 5-6 wounds average on a Telemon, anything more is bad luck).
My second is don't deep strike units UNLESS:
1. You have a source of re-roll charges at the very minimum (Dread Host).
2. You want the unit's shooting more than it's melee (Allarus against characters).
3. It's a throwaway to score something like deploy scramblers (we don't really have these).
My third recommendation: Take more Jetbikes over Terminators. Your opponent is fond of flying vehicles it seems. Jetbikes can charge those and make them pay. Drop all Terminators from the list for Jetbikes.
My fourth recommendation: Decide on a role for your Jetbikes! Don't split them! If you want them to kill the flyers, give them ALL salvo-missiles and have them shoot/charge flyers. If you want them to harvest infantry and charge whatever, give them ALL hurricane bolters and wipe his squads off the board. Remember, Salvo missiles get +1 to Hit on the flyers (negating their hard to hit ability).
My fifth recommendation: Bring a -1 to Hit flag. It's super important against Guard (Tau too).
My sixth recommendation: Don't forget Arcane Genetic Alchemy (usable on Infantry AND Jetbikes). If your opponent has a blizzard of high strength weapons, throw this on a target (and Emperor's Auspice on a DIFFERENT target if it needs protection).
My seventh recommendation: Since I recommend taking Jetbikes, go Solar Watch over Shadowkeepers. Put the Jetbike Captain with them. 21" Move+Advance and shooting on 3's, re-rolling 1's, with a big squad can punch serious holes T1. There's not much that can hide from it.
My eighth recommendation: Choose objectives wisely. You want Bring It Down (because of his vehicles), Grind Them Down/Thin Their Ranks and Map-Specific/Domination/Linebreaker depending on map.
.
So aside from Morty, what are the other "Lords of" that we need to watch out for? DPs and the like are easily planned for, but do their casters or other HQ's present any specific issues for us that we need to game for?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So aside from Morty, what are the other "Lords of" that we need to watch out for? DPs and the like are easily planned for, but do their casters or other HQ's present any specific issues for us that we need to game for?
Really, just DP's as far as I know. Malefic Talon DP's were already good at chewing up terminators/jetbikes. They can be even better at it now.
The Blightspawn (flamer Elite character) used to be a huge problem too, but he got hit with the nerf bat. Should be manageable UNLESS you see one with a relic and/or pathogen. THAT will be like fighting the old ones.
Fleshmowers got better at hurting us too. Keep an eye on them but they have no guns so you can play around it.
The flails on PM's got weaker against us but the cleavers got better and now they can have both. Generally, see any unit those things get to swing on as finished unless you've got Emperor's Auspice and maybe Arcane Genetic Alchemy running.
Cloud of Flies is still around so any big unit of PM's or terminators will be protected from shooting unless you're within 12".
Possessed are a sleeper unit. They're about as powerful as the PM's but not getting anywhere near as much attention.
Chaos Spawn got buffed too but I don't think they're at incredible dangerousness.
Plague Burst Crawlers got their flamers nerfed so we're a bit tougher against them than we used to be.
iGuy91 wrote: Does Emperor's Auspice prevent rerolls for plague weapons? I believe it does.
That's a lotta precious CP to stop us from eating attacks. Unless I was lied to this weekend that only stops the to-hit rerolls, not the to-wound, or the command re-rolls.
Regarding characters we need to watch out for: the foul blightspawn.
It has an aura that makes charging units not count as charging. Tabletop Titans mentioned this tactic: if you put a foul blightspawn in front of a unit of deathshroud terminators, you make that terminator unit basically unchargeable and you won't be able to shoot the foul blightspawn either because of the bodyguard ability of the deathshorud terminators...really annoying.
I also think that you can't even take out the foul blightspawn with a unit of allarus and the "inescapable vengeance" strat, if the foul blightspawn is within of 3" of deathshroud terminators, because their bodyguard aura takes precedence over the strats "ignore look out sir" rule
iGuy91 wrote: Does Emperor's Auspice prevent rerolls for plague weapons? I believe it does.
That's a lotta precious CP to stop us from eating attacks. Unless I was lied to this weekend that only stops the to-hit rerolls, not the to-wound, or the command re-rolls.
You were lied to. It's all re-rolls from all sources, including commanf re-rolls, plague weapons, e.t.c. The text is that it stops all re-rolls when resolving an attack. Resolving includes hit, wound and damage.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tiberias wrote: Regarding characters we need to watch out for: the foul blightspawn.
It has an aura that makes charging units not count as charging. Tabletop Titans mentioned this tactic: if you put a foul blightspawn in front of a unit of deathshroud terminators, you make that terminator unit basically unchargeable and you won't be able to shoot the foul blightspawn either because of the bodyguard ability of the deathshorud terminators...really annoying.
I also think that you can't even take out the foul blightspawn with a unit of allarus and the "inescapable vengeance" strat, if the foul blightspawn is within of 3" of deathshroud terminators, because their bodyguard aura takes precedence over the strats "ignore look out sir" rule
Blightspawns were nerfed to only target one unit to fight last UNLESS you give them a relic, but yes, still dangerous.
Thank you for clearing that up for me Audustum, truth be told, I really have no doubt he would have won regardless. My list was pretty badly represented in all facets/phases. I think I may have gotten about 15 of his models off the board before he just walloped me. We, as the most "Elite" army/faction in the game save Knights, cannot afford to lose even a single model. DG can loose half their force and still be effective at holding objectives and running out the clock.
I will say 9th is very confusing for me, I am struggling to forget 8th still.
I will say 9th is very confusing for me, I am struggling to forget 8th still.
if it makes you feel better, as and when the lockdown allows me to actually PLAY a game, i will end up trying to forget 3rd/4th edition ideas of how to play.
I will say 9th is very confusing for me, I am struggling to forget 8th still.
if it makes you feel better, as and when the lockdown allows me to actually PLAY a game, i will end up trying to forget 3rd/4th edition ideas of how to play.
Now I just feel bad for you. That sounds like my having to go from DND 3rd to DND 5th. I still hate how every character is a goddamned super hero by level 5 with minimal effort. I assume it will be the same for you in this edition. I learned 7th just as 8th dropped, and then 9th completely flipped the script again. Not that it's bad changes, just not used to it yet. Then again I am playing the simplest faction in the game, so there is that.
Custodes are far and bye not a simple faction. In fact, we have some of the hardest decisions to make as far as how we deploy and judging how much of our force to dedicate to any particular front on the table.
Since our invuns and damage rolls are so swingy, we cant trust our damage output or durability to know exactly how much we should push or hide.
You almost have to know other factions better than our own to do well competitively.
Eihnlazer wrote: Custodes are far and bye not a simple faction. In fact, we have some of the hardest decisions to make as far as how we deploy and judging how much of our force to dedicate to any particular front on the table.
Since our invuns and damage rolls are so swingy, we cant trust our damage output or durability to know exactly how much we should push or hide.
You almost have to know other factions better than our own to do well competitively.
I don't mean to demean our faction, but we are NOT complicated. Take deathwatch for instance, they are super micro heavy, and have 50 possible alternative actions they can take every turn. Custodes have one job, get in close and punch things until they are off the board. We don't even have psykers because that would be complicated and get in the way of our punchiness. Nope, just good old fashioned charge, punch, repeat. Unless you are an all sword and board, then it's even worse. Just sit there and wait to get punched, then punch back. I know you CAN do a lot with Custodes, but you should really just focus on the one strength we have, which is punching stuff, REALLY HARD. We are Goku from DBZA.
Yeah if your talking about simple as in amount of things we have to do.
Im talking about how even though we have the stat block that looks like point and click, we are definately not.
In the competitive scene its a litteral gamble to charge forward every time with custodes. Plans on the tabletop will never hold up for an entire tournament because of our swingy nature.
The other army that has to worry about 4+ saves and random damage (harlequins) doesnt have to worry about positioning (because of their insane speed) or running out of dudes (cause they outnumber us 3-1 and have transports worth using).
Eh, no point discussing what faction is hard to play or not.
Every faction is difficult to master, because to really master your faction, you not only need to know everything about your own, but you also need extensive knowledge about most other factions as well and how they play against you. It kinda evens out.
Also yeah, gsc has a lot of micromanagement for example, but custodes have to arguably make really tough choices with the few models they have available etc.
yhea, i can see it being a "paucity of options" vs "analysis paralysis" situation. Its one type of diffcult if you have to get 4 units to co-operate to make a effect on the enemy, but its a equal but different type of difficult if your faced with 3 objectives and 2 units to take them with.
having actually ALSO gone form 3.x to 5th ed DnD in the last year, i can say that wasn't actually that big a switch, honestly. A lot less of a change than the one between 2nd and 3rd, frankly.
On 40K again, i think my issues will not so much be in the actual mechanics of the game (many of which havent changed that much, and frankly are simpler now, with less table lookups), but rather in intuiting the "game effect" of a given potential action. For example, i wont be able to quik-maff the potential targets for a units shooting with any degree of accuracy, so i'll either assigning too much, too little, or both in the same phase, or i working out when to use a re-roll or defensive strat, and when to just take it on the chin.
xerxeskingofking wrote: yhea, i can see it being a "paucity of options" vs "analysis paralysis" situation. Its one type of diffcult if you have to get 4 units to co-operate to make a effect on the enemy, but its a equal but different type of difficult if your faced with 3 objectives and 2 units to take them with.
having actually ALSO gone form 3.x to 5th ed DnD in the last year, i can say that wasn't actually that big a switch, honestly. A lot less of a change than the one between 2nd and 3rd, frankly.
On 40K again, i think my issues will not so much be in the actual mechanics of the game (many of which havent changed that much, and frankly are simpler now, with less table lookups), but rather in intuiting the "game effect" of a given potential action. For example, i wont be able to quik-maff the potential targets for a units shooting with any degree of accuracy, so i'll either assigning too much, too little, or both in the same phase, or i working out when to use a re-roll or defensive strat, and when to just take it on the chin.
Regarding "intuiting the game effect of a given potential action": you'll have that down in no time for sure. It's also easier in 9th in my opinion because EVERYTHING is so deadly now. I am still of the opinion that it is just ridiculous that our statline is basically nothing impressive anymore, our T5, +2save 4+invuln demigods will just die like flies against weight of dice against most factions (mass shooting, repentias etc.).
This sucks from a game design standpoint imo, but I think it also simplifies things. For example, if you have a unit of allarus terminators on the board and you need them to stick around for at least one turn, you need plan ahead and save at least 3CP for "auramite and adamantium" and "emperors auspice" (maybe transhuman) for them to survive. You can be almost certain that, despite the impressive statline of your allarus, most opponents will certainly have the tools to remove them in a turn, so you also know with a degree of certainty that you need to save some CP for defensive strats to keep them alive. Well, except when your opponent doesn't have any CP left and/or all his strongest units are already dead, but those scenarios are going to be few far between.
My main point is this: you are going to learn the strong wombo combos from other factions pretty quick and you'll then know which of your wombo combos you need to save or have at the ready to counter theirs.
If you had told me 2 years ago that a army comprised of base-line S/T5 W3 2+/4++ models would be "soft" in the next edition, I would have broken my paintbrush in surprise.
Off the aspect of 9th, GW has a real design problem on their hands. How can you promote ELITE style army/faction lists, and still maintain horde gunline style lists? You can't. They tried to give Primaris gunline level shooting at the end of 8th, and people really hated it. They created the Castellan, and people hated it, because it could outshoot anything on the table, and take an army's worth of punishment in return.
I think this is why they still have SoS as Elites, because they know if they were troops it would be broken as all hell.
++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) ++
+ Configuration +
Battle Size: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Detachment Command Cost
Shield Host: Dread Host
+ HQ +
Captain-General Trajann Valoris
Shield Captain in Allarus Terminator Armor: Admonimortis, Captain-Commander, Castellan Axe, Misericordia, Superior Creation, Swift as the Eagle, Warlord
I have additionally a telemon, a third grav tank, and an achilles. 3 addtional bolter aquillons, and 5 additional spear allarus. 1 squad of wichseeker SoS with a rhino, 2 pallas grav assaults, and some assasins. A regular vexilla with a miser, and 6 spear guardians.
++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) ++
+ Configuration +
Battle Size: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Detachment Command Cost
Shield Host: Dread Host
+ HQ +
Captain-General Trajann Valoris
Shield Captain in Allarus Terminator Armor: Admonimortis, Captain-Commander, Castellan Axe, Misericordia, Superior Creation, Swift as the Eagle, Warlord
I have additionally a telemon, a third grav tank, and an achilles. 3 addtional bolter aquillons, and 5 additional spear allarus. 1 squad of wichseeker SoS with a rhino, 2 pallas grav assaults, and some assasins. A regular vexilla with a miser, and 6 spear guardians.
The shadowkeeper list seems to be a very strong shooting package. Caladius and Trajann are still decently good with he rerolls. Though I would drop the lockwarden shield captain and add a vexillus with magnifica instead. The -1 to hit bubble is still valuable and the lockwarden shield captain with stormshield is hard to shift, but he is slow and not that good at killing stuff.
I really like the dreadhost list. Do you plan on starting the allarus squad on the board and deepstrike the aquilon, terminator captain and vexillus together with the dread host strat in turn 2? I also really love the galatus, but I speak from experience when I say that if you don't deepstrike him or give him some added protection with a -1 to hit banner, he might have a tough time footslogging across the field. If you just plan on having him as a cool distraction carnifex, then footslogging him across the field is fine, but chances are that he won't reach the enemy (depending on matchup), despite being quite a tough cookie.
Eihnlazer wrote: Lockwarden cap goes with the shield guard up one flank usually and is good at tying up really nasty stuff.
I usually deepstrike the termies and captain, keeping the vex on the table to buff my guard and giving me access to the Homer strat if need be
If you keep the vex on the board, why not opt for a normal one? The terminator vexillas only advantage imo is that he can deepstrike. Take normal one and slap a stormshield on him, so he can tank a bit too. No downsides to switching to a normal vexilla as far as I can see.
Regarding the lockwarden captain, I get the idea, but does he rally reach the nasty stuff he's supposed to tank when you need him to? He's rather slow and easy to avoid.
stratigo wrote: XD Man deathshrouds are so much better than allarus XD XD. Or even Aquillon. They're 25 points cheaper for just a much better set of tools
Well, let's see what happens when our codex is released. Until then, I still think the most efficient way to remove deathshroud and blightlord terminators is with a double fist telemon or an achillus, though the telemon is more efficient I believe.
A double fist telemon would take out about 2-3 deathshroud and take 2-3 dmg in return (quickmaffs don't quote me on this, I'm not the best at mathhammer).
Everything else in our codex really gets hit hard by the -1 dmg and loses efficiency. And all of our terminators don't trade well into deathshroud.
I actually won out last night with my all flyers list against a Blood Angels player.
It was all jetbikes and a counts as Ares. I may end up swapping out the Ares for a big pack of jetpack Custodes, because unless I am going up against Morty (I thought I was) the Ares is really over costed for what it can do. The Venetari are really more TAC focused, but the Bikes were the stars of the show. My missile bikes rolled hot all game and took out his entire contingent of jetpack boys on turn 2. The rest of the bikes charged his assault intercessors and made short work of them. I lost 5 bikes however to a set of eradicators and a repulsor.
I really forgot to appreciate how resilient we are.
Ok, hold up...let me get this straight. So deathwing gets to keep permanent transhuman, it also works on bladeguard veterans now and they get a relic "pennant of remembrance" where you can pick a deathwing unit in your command phase and that unit is -1dmg from all attacks.
So you can have bladeguard veterans that have permanent transhuman, 2+, 4++, -1dmg and have better weapons than our shield guys ...all for less points? Dude, what?
If that's the baseline I want shootier swords and spears, +1 strength on swords in close combat, +2 strength for spears in Close combat, transhuman on everyone (or something like it), and some new uber unit.
I wouldn't mind our bolters going to S5 ap2, but that's a pipe dream. I would love to know if there is any benefit to us getting into the doctrine game. Or for Sisters to get ObSec.
I dont want doctrines, but not getting a free turn based bonus is gonna put us behind the game.
I'd rather we got something like:
The Emporer's Will Manifest: On all odd numbered battle round (1,3,5), all custodes units gain +1 to advance and charge rolls. On all even number battle round (2, 4) you gain 2 CP in the command phase instead of 1.
So we get 3 turns of slightly better mobility on our units and 2 extra CP per game.
Eihnlazer wrote: I dont want doctrines, but not getting a free turn based bonus is gonna put us behind the game.
I'd rather we got something like:
The Emporer's Will Manifest: On all odd numbered battle round (1,3,5), all custodes units gain +1 to advance and charge rolls. On all even number battle round (2, 4) you gain 2 CP in the command phase instead of 1.
So we get 3 turns of slightly better mobility on our units and 2 extra CP per game.
Havin those buffs fixed to certain turns would be awful imo. Just give our shield hosts some decent passive buffs and we're golden (pun intended).
I was thinking about this last night while looking at the Deathwing Knights rules, which I may be wrong but are the closest non-custodes unit to a Guardian out there. 4/4 that can become 5/4, with a 2+4++5+++ and 4-5 attacks depending on litany, phase, and spells, has re-roll wounds, and can get + to wounds, for around 47 points. And you can squad them in groups of 3-5 I think. They also get the Mace of absolution that is a TH with no neg to hit.
We have roughly the same stat line with better S/T, less attacks, less but stonger shooting, and weaker attacks, S5/6 depending on weapon. We get a better invuln option with shield, but we get more cost.
I think we need to get nerfed in order to get buffed. If we intend to stay at S5T5, then we need to go UP in costs before we can start talking about Buffs to weapon S.
I would rather see us go to S/T4, get a drop in price, but get Plus 1/2 in Weapon Strength. If we stay S/T5, I think raise us to base 60 points, and give us the Weapon buffs. The S/T tax is really the breaker for us. With it we need to cost more and can't have stronger weapons without being broken, without it we are just Golden Astartes and why even have us as a faction?
We need to go up in cost if we are getting any buffs.
Changing swords to S+1 and spears to S+2 should be free since it's just keeping us in line with the changes to Force weapons, which our profiles were copied from.
I was thinking a 'pure' bonus for us could be re-rolling invuln saves of 1 and upping the MWFNP to 5+++. As a general quality of life that should be changed to all MW, not just psychic phase ones too. Probably gets us where we need to be.
