FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Even then I am willing to bet that bikes are core for Custodes, as they are explicitly mentioned for SMs. I bet this is more for things like Telemons, or the 3 Tanks and Trajann basecamp that was super prevelent in 8th. Also a issue where a HW would sit in the back and just give auras to a death ball of Heavy Artillery like Whirlwinds. I don't see this being a massive issue in 9th. This is a good change.
I think it won't hurt us regardless of what our core units are. All of our things hit on 2s, capped hit/wound modifiers mean we won't get -4s and such, where rerolls matter much. This primarily hurts high volume castles, like SM, especially mechanized ones. Repulsor Executioner is explicitly shown not to have CORE, so I imagine Troops and some select Elites and FA will get CORE.
I can not think of a scenario, in which this hurts us more than any other army, which now has a) lesser firepower, b) needs to substantially change tactics.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Writing a list of 1000 points for a local tourney. What do you think?
Idea is to park the 3 sword and board guardians on a backfield obj, rush up with the rhino and shield cap for another, I can easily get hold more T2 if I start, or escalate with the SC if going 2nd.
So the disgusting news I heard out of my local GW store yesterday afternoon was that GW was personally writing the new FW rules, not just the book. They are completely pulling FW out of the rules process.
As we are the single most (Percentage wise) FW heavy faction on the table, we stand the most to lose from this, or the most to gain. If all powerfists get the same treatment across the board, look out Aquillons. If all the Flamers go to 12", bring on the Fisto-Telemons. If all the Melta weapons go to d6+2 in half range, bring on the melta guardians. That new FW book can't come fast enough.
I think it won't hurt us regardless of what our core units are. All of our things hit on 2s, capped hit/wound modifiers mean we won't get -4s and such, where rerolls matter much. This primarily hurts high volume castles, like SM, especially mechanized ones. Repulsor Executioner is explicitly shown not to have CORE, so I imagine Troops and some select Elites and FA will get CORE.
I can not think of a scenario, in which this hurts us more than any other army, which now has a) lesser firepower, b) needs to substantially change tactics.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Writing a list of 1000 points for a local tourney. What do you think?
Idea is to park the 3 sword and board guardians on a backfield obj, rush up with the rhino and shield cap for another, I can easily get hold more T2 if I start, or escalate with the SC if going 2nd.
Hey fella,
I dig the list!
One critical thing: Replace the Eagle's Eye with the Auric Aquilas - it gives the same 3++, as well as reroll charges Also, I strongly recommend paying 1 CP to give him the Unstoppable Destroyer trait from War of the Spider's Captain-Commander list.
I think it won't hurt us regardless of what our core units are. All of our things hit on 2s, capped hit/wound modifiers mean we won't get -4s and such, where rerolls matter much. This primarily hurts high volume castles, like SM, especially mechanized ones. Repulsor Executioner is explicitly shown not to have CORE, so I imagine Troops and some select Elites and FA will get CORE.
I can not think of a scenario, in which this hurts us more than any other army, which now has a) lesser firepower, b) needs to substantially change tactics.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Writing a list of 1000 points for a local tourney. What do you think?
Idea is to park the 3 sword and board guardians on a backfield obj, rush up with the rhino and shield cap for another, I can easily get hold more T2 if I start, or escalate with the SC if going 2nd.
Hey fella,
I dig the list!
One critical thing: Replace the Eagle's Eye with the Auric Aquilas - it gives the same 3++, as well as reroll charges Also, I strongly recommend paying 1 CP to give him the Unstoppable Destroyer trait from War of the Spider's Captain-Commander list.
Report back with how it goes
Just remember, with Destroyer, you cannot consolidate out of combat if your opponent activates first (like by charging you) and then basing you. 9th does not allow consolidation movement of any kind for based models. Was a bit of a surprise when I had an opponent who couldn't escape because I had based him (just thoughtlessly on my part).
Just remember, with Destroyer, you cannot consolidate out of combat if your opponent activates first (like by charging you) and then basing you. 9th does not allow consolidation movement of any kind for based models. Was a bit of a surprise when I had an opponent who couldn't escape because I had based him (just thoughtlessly on my part).
Could you expand on this?
The rule explicitly states that you don't have to 'end the [consolidation] move closer to the nearest enemy model'. This does not override the other rule?
Just remember, with Destroyer, you cannot consolidate out of combat if your opponent activates first (like by charging you) and then basing you. 9th does not allow consolidation movement of any kind for based models. Was a bit of a surprise when I had an opponent who couldn't escape because I had based him (just thoughtlessly on my part).
Could you expand on this?
The rule explicitly states that you don't have to 'end the [consolidation] move closer to the nearest enemy model'. This does not override the other rule?
Quote from the BRB - digital version page 22:
"CONSOLIDATE
When a unit consolidates, you can move each model in the unit
up to 3" – this is a Consolidation move. Each model must finish its
Consolidation move closer to the closest enemy model. A model
that is already touching an enemy model cannot move, but still
counts as having consolidated. Remember that a unit must finish
any type of move in unit coherency (pg 4)." (emphasis mine)
This means that if he's in base contact, he can't move. The implication is that on the offense you can use this to prevent return swings on their turn, but if they go and pile into you, you are stuck.
Just remember, with Destroyer, you cannot consolidate out of combat if your opponent activates first (like by charging you) and then basing you. 9th does not allow consolidation movement of any kind for based models. Was a bit of a surprise when I had an opponent who couldn't escape because I had based him (just thoughtlessly on my part).
Could you expand on this?
The rule explicitly states that you don't have to 'end the [consolidation] move closer to the nearest enemy model'. This does not override the other rule?
Quote from the BRB - digital version page 22:
"CONSOLIDATE
When a unit consolidates, you can move each model in the unit
up to 3" – this is a Consolidation move. Each model must finish its
Consolidation move closer to the closest enemy model. A model
that is already touching an enemy model cannot move, but still
counts as having consolidated. Remember that a unit must finish
any type of move in unit coherency (pg 4)." (emphasis mine)
This means that if he's in base contact, he can't move. The implication is that on the offense you can use this to prevent return swings on their turn, but if they go and pile into you, you are stuck.
1) Can I shoot concussive grenades on multiple targets to give them -1 to hit? Dont see why not
2) Can I shoot both the rapid fire axes and the ballistus grenade launcher? I think its pistols you cant shoot along with other wpns, but all others can be shot?
3) What do you guys feel about starting them on the board for unleash the lions t1?
1) Can I shoot concussive grenades on multiple targets to give them -1 to hit? Dont see why not
2) Can I shoot both the rapid fire axes and the ballistus grenade launcher? I think its pistols you cant shoot along with other wpns, but all others can be shot?
3) What do you guys feel about starting them on the board for unleash the lions t1?
1) You can only use each stratagem once per phase, so only for one unit, and you have to split fire.
2) Yes, you can shoot with all your ranged weapons, unless otherwise stated. If they have multiple profiles, you have to choose, unless it is a combi weapon, but then you get -1 to hit.
3) You should unleash when they are in position to do what you want with unleash.
1) Can I shoot concussive grenades on multiple targets to give them -1 to hit? Dont see why not
2) Can I shoot both the rapid fire axes and the ballistus grenade launcher? I think its pistols you cant shoot along with other wpns, but all others can be shot?
3) What do you guys feel about starting them on the board for unleash the lions t1?
1) You can only use each stratagem once per phase, so only for one unit, and you have to split fire.
2) Yes, you can shoot with all your ranged weapons, unless otherwise stated. If they have multiple profiles, you have to choose, unless it is a combi weapon, but then you get -1 to hit.
3) You should unleash when they are in position to do what you want with unleash.
Not sure what I want with unleash. Spread out and cause chaos, I guess, make life difficult for the opponent by blocking passageway, drawing fire etc.
Original idea is to vexila drop them midboard or more, shoot at characters with double RF, concussive grenade the unit(s) im charging, buff them defensively in opponents turn and then unleash to spread em out.
The best time to unleash is when your opponent makes a mistake. Unleash is a way to punish a bad move with a character, or a over advance with a vehichle/monster, or when they leave a critical objective open. If you are popping it early, you are just making several easy targets rather than 1 homogenous dangerous target. I usually unleash when I can surround a warlord, or need to break off and finish off an HQ with some quick axe work. Remember, it can be played in your shooting phase OR your opponents. Unless I am massively mistaken, no one has ever stopped me from popping it in my opponent's phase.
Also, you can use it to break unit de-buffs like Jynx, as the "unit" no longer exists. It is now several units. (Nope I am wrong. RAI says it stays. )
Also, you can use it to break unit de-buffs like Jynx, as the "unit" no longer exists. It is now several units.
This is incorrect. Rare Rules explicitly states that if a unit splits mid-game, any effects on the unit are imparted to their sub-units until such time as those effects would normally expire.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Remember, it can be played in your shooting phase OR your opponents. Unless I am massively mistaken, no one has ever stopped me from popping it in my opponent's phase.
This is likewise incorrect. Unleash is only playable at the start of your movement phase.
1) Can I shoot concussive grenades on multiple targets to give them -1 to hit? Dont see why not
2) Can I shoot both the rapid fire axes and the ballistus grenade launcher? I think its pistols you cant shoot along with other wpns, but all others can be shot?
3) What do you guys feel about starting them on the board for unleash the lions t1?
1) You can only use each stratagem once per phase, so only for one unit, and you have to split fire.
2) Yes, you can shoot with all your ranged weapons, unless otherwise stated. If they have multiple profiles, you have to choose, unless it is a combi weapon, but then you get -1 to hit.
3) You should unleash when they are in position to do what you want with unleash.
Not sure what I want with unleash. Spread out and cause chaos, I guess, make life difficult for the opponent by blocking passageway, drawing fire etc.
Original idea is to vexila drop them midboard or more, shoot at characters with double RF, concussive grenade the unit(s) im charging, buff them defensively in opponents turn and then unleash to spread em out.
Think of unleash this way:
If you need to power through stuff do not use Unleash the Lions. Your strats are stronger in a unified unit and it gets very unreliable to take out key targets if your splitting everything up. Both defensivly and offensivly the unit is better together.
If you need table coverage and to make your opponent have to make tough choices, you want to use Unleash the Lions. Grabbing objectives, rooting out 1-2 man infantry units, and stressing out your opponent is what its good for.
If you need to power through stuff do not use Unleash the Lions. Your strats are stronger in a unified unit and it gets very unreliable to take out key targets if your splitting everything up. Both defensivly and offensivly the unit is better together.
If you need table coverage and to make your opponent have to make tough choices, you want to use Unleash the Lions. Grabbing objectives, rooting out 1-2 man infantry units, and stressing out your opponent is what its good for.
Yes, good summary, that is what I am thinking as well. Hence the plan to have them be buffed as a unit for 1 turn - offensively on my round to remove a key threat and/or gain a good starting position on the board from the vexila - stay together through enemy return round - and then split them up, hopefully well rooted on their table half.
Very excited to test this out. They seem a very fun unit!
I like to think about Unleash as a fix value setback for your opponent. You'll set them back a certain amount in their composure, win percent, take what you will. However, it has different impacts on the game depending on the situation you use it in.
In my games so far I've felt that there is a tipping point, where you or your opponent fall below a threshold, and start emergency mode. This means that if you Unleash against a well composed opponent, you will make him reevaluate his plans, reallocate resources etc. If you Unleash against an opponent already ravaged a bit, this might make him go below the threshold, and fall apart completely.
Thing is, the allarus are elites, so they aren't great for holding objectives. A single guardsman can disrupt your points and steal the objective from you. They are both in rules and weapons designed to hunt characters and score points killing the warlord. They pair extremely well with sisters, because they can do semi-character targeting, and really help back up HQ kill teams.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Thing is, the allarus are elites, so they aren't great for holding objectives. A single guardsman can disrupt your points and steal the objective from you. They are both in rules and weapons designed to hunt characters and score points killing the warlord. They pair extremely well with sisters, because they can do semi-character targeting, and really help back up HQ kill teams.
And again incorrect. All of our infantry and our bikes have obsec. So a single guardsman can not steal the objective from you unless you have a just one single allarus on the objective, then it is contested because both have obsec. So yeah, a big unit of allarus is actually great at holding objectives, because they are quite hard to shift with the new stratagem support.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Thing is, the allarus are elites, so they aren't great for holding objectives. A single guardsman can disrupt your points and steal the objective from you. They are both in rules and weapons designed to hunt characters and score points killing the warlord. They pair extremely well with sisters, because they can do semi-character targeting, and really help back up HQ kill teams.
And again incorrect. All of our infantry and our bikes have obsec. So a single guardsman can not steal the objective from you unless you have a just one single allarus on the objective, then it is contested because both have obsec. So yeah, a big unit of allarus is actually great at holding objectives, because they are quite hard to shift with the new stratagem support.
Actually, you are only half right. If the objective is contested, there is no points earned. Hence, "stolen" All I have to do at the end of my turn is move, move, move my squad of troops onto the objective held by your lone Allarus, and end ,my turn. Points are now earned at the start of the turn, so when yours begins, you don't get that objective. Point is, I agree with the above poster, there are very few and far between situations where splitting up a squad of allarus makes sense. Certainly not as objective takers.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Thing is, the allarus are elites, so they aren't great for holding objectives. A single guardsman can disrupt your points and steal the objective from you. They are both in rules and weapons designed to hunt characters and score points killing the warlord. They pair extremely well with sisters, because they can do semi-character targeting, and really help back up HQ kill teams.
And again incorrect. All of our infantry and our bikes have obsec. So a single guardsman can not steal the objective from you unless you have a just one single allarus on the objective, then it is contested because both have obsec. So yeah, a big unit of allarus is actually great at holding objectives, because they are quite hard to shift with the new stratagem support.
Actually, you are only half right. If the objective is contested, there is no points earned. Hence, "stolen" All I have to do at the end of my turn is move, move, move my squad of troops onto the objective held by your lone Allarus, and end ,my turn. Points are now earned at the start of the turn, so when yours begins, you don't get that objective. Point is, I agree with the above poster, there are very few and far between situations where splitting up a squad of allarus makes sense. Certainly not as objective takers.
Oh please, stop the backtracking. You clearly meant allarus are bad at holding because they are elites and a single obsec guardsman can steal an objective from them. Which is incorrect cause they have obsec...
Im a former 40k player, getting back into the game after being in remission form about 10-15 years (not played much since about 2005, stopped completely in 2010 when i moved aboard). im currently building up a 1K Admech force, but looking at custodes as a secondary next/next project. Now, i quite like the look of the custodes lore wise (they weren't a playable faction back when i was active, not even in heresy or other secondary settings, so they are very new to me still), and i quite like the look of the models. anyway, i have some questions about them that i think this is the best place to ask. Im not expecting to play competitive tournament level play, just the casual pick up level games (assuming i can find somewhere thats hosting. oh well)
so, my questions:
1) looking at the 40k app, it seems like they are quite light on ranged anti-tank, with only really the dreadnought multi-melta and the missile launcher on the bikes as options. i understand they can rip it up in CC with S8 attacks with the castellan axe armed guys, but are they a faction that struggles with tanks or fast vehicles?
2) speaking of the jetbikes and the dread, how easy is it to magnetize the weapons on those? i'd like to have the options for both bolters and missles (unless one of them is totally useless), but i'm not really sure how easy a job that is. with the dreadnought, it seems at first glance that the assault cannon might actually be a passible anti-vehicle weapon (6 shots at str 7), but that might just be me not being good at converting modern stat-lines into "in game" effect. Also, is that multi-melta the same as the one thats getting a boost from the new Codex: space marines?
3) I've heard conflicting accounts about the real world cost of getting a custodes army going. My understanding is that the GW "proper" stuff is (relatively) cheap (it seems i can put together a 500 point army for just £70, and a 750 point for £105), but that it can get really expensive if you go heavy with the Forge World stuff. Is the FW stuff A) worth getting? and if it is, it is B) essential, becuase it fills some vital gap in the army?
Automatically Appended Next Post: oh, forgot:
4) Sisters of Silence, are they a separate, allied faction imperial faction, or something we can take as a regular unit choice? Some of the things I have seen seem to imply they are part of the "the custodes army range", but their stat-lines don't have the right keywords or any rules suggesting they can.
Im a former 40k player, getting back into the game after being in remission form about 10-15 years (not played much since about 2005, stopped completely in 2010 when i moved aboard). im currently building up a 1K Admech force, but looking at custodes as a secondary next/next project. Now, i quite like the look of the custodes lore wise (they weren't a playable faction back when i was active, not even in heresy or other secondary settings, so they are very new to me still), and i quite like the look of the models. anyway, i have some questions about them that i think this is the best place to ask. Im not expecting to play competitive tournament level play, just the casual pick up level games (assuming i can find somewhere thats hosting. oh well)
so, my questions:
1) looking at the 40k app, it seems like they are quite light on ranged anti-tank, with only really the dreadnought multi-melta and the missile launcher on the bikes as options. i understand they can rip it up in CC with S8 attacks with the castellan axe armed guys, but are they a faction that struggles with tanks or fast vehicles?
2) speaking of the jetbikes and the dread, how easy is it to magnetize the weapons on those? i'd like to have the options for both bolters and missles (unless one of them is totally useless), but i'm not really sure how easy a job that is. with the dreadnought, it seems at first glance that the assault cannon might actually be a passible anti-vehicle weapon (6 shots at str 7), but that might just be me not being good at converting modern stat-lines into "in game" effect. Also, is that multi-melta the same as the one thats getting a boost from the new Codex: space marines?
3) I've heard conflicting accounts about the real world cost of getting a custodes army going. My understanding is that the GW "proper" stuff is (relatively) cheap (it seems i can put together a 500 point army for just £70, and a 750 point for £105), but that it can get really expensive if you go heavy with the Forge World stuff. Is the FW stuff A) worth getting? and if it is, it is B) essential, becuase it fills some vital gap in the army?
Welcome!
1. Yes that's a fair assessment. There's also the land raider as far as plastic kits go, but of the main codex options a unit of bikes with salvo launchers and Archeotech munitions is your best bet. Doesn't really approach the AT power of some other factions in terms of efficiency.
Forge world on the other hand opens up some fairly strong options, favourite of mine is the Telemon dreadnought with storm cannons.
2. Can't speak for the dreadnought (nor would I recommend it right now), but bikes are super easy to magnetise in that you don't even need to use magnets or glue on the weapons. Just push them in and out as you like, they click snugly into place. Don't follow the instructions which tells you to glue them in early in construction, just wait until the end and pop them in without glue.
3. At this stage Custodes can still function fairly well without being absolutely dependant on forgeworld. People focus on the poor AT shooting during list building but if you are clever about it, it's never really a problem. All you need to be able to do is touch the enemy tanks in assault with a jetbike captain or teleporting terminators and they are neutered for a turn, and Custodes put out enough hurt in combat that you stand a fair chance of knocking tanks out anyway. Vehicle heavy shooty lists are poor at playing objectives really while Custodes infantry are among the best in the game at it, so you can afford to take some shooting from enemy tanks. As long as you still control objectives you're still winning the game so who cares.
The thing to watch out for is the transport-rush style of list which is a challenge for custodes to deal with generally.
4. Take a look at the 'War of the spider' book which came out a few months ago. It contains extra rules for custodes (some damn good ones) and also rules for using Sisters of silence in custodes detachments. Basically you can just put them in as elites choices with no problems.
Also: https://www.youtube.com/user/1PlusArmour Can hammer - does great interviews with a lot of the prop players that main Custodes, and he does awesome bat reps
When you say "i wouldn't recommend the plastic dreadnought " , is that " i would recommend something else. Its kinda meh" or "its totally awful, never take it ever"?
When you say "i wouldn't recommend the plastic dreadnought " , is that " i would recommend something else. Its kinda meh" or "its totally awful, never take it ever"?
I will check out those YouTube links, thankyou
It has been in the totally awful category for a long time, however with the recent rules available in War of the Spider combined with perhaps a significant buff to the multi-melta, it could be a nice option potentially in a few weeks time (rules wise).
The only other reason I wouldn't recommend the model is that the plastic Contemptor dreadnought kit itself is just awful. Its the same as the normal Space marines plastic Contemptor. I got one in the 'Talons of the Emperor' kit when plastic custodes first came out, its just the worst looking, boring, generic, lifeless model I've ever put together and you need to do quite a bit of modification to it just to get it into a fighting stance which isn't an impersonation of a tree. Even after all that I've never had the motivation to finish painting it, its just so dull. So if you care about having a cool looking model you're better off going for a Forgeworld Contemptor dreadnought and then converting it to look like it belongs to the Custodes. Dunno if thats important to you or not
When you say "i wouldn't recommend the plastic dreadnought " , is that " i would recommend something else. Its kinda meh" or "its totally awful, never take it ever"?
I will check out those YouTube links, thankyou
Heyhey, welcome home to the hobby
I'm a new custodes player as well - started it 2 months ago - this was the first link I was recommended, it's an article that covers the main strengths and weaknesses, as well as the gamechanging additions that came in War of the Spider.
1) the "sentinel storm" stratagem lets you shoot your sentinel blades pistol shots in the opponents turn, so long as you are in melee. Am i right in saying that this lets you shoot twice in a battle round (once in your turn, once in his)? and is that strat really worth 2CP given the fairly mediocre firepower 3-5 pistol shots can do?
2) I've been looking at the forge world stuff for the custodes. I see what people mean about the telemon being a better dread (though its currently out of stock, so its kinda a moot point at this time). My next question is over the halberd and sword n board dreads that FW do. Personally they seem quite fluffy and reasonably effective for thier points. does anyone use them, or are they just another dead end?
3) the assault-type guardian spear options form FW, any good or a waste of points? I quite like the Adrasite spears but three times the point cost is a steep rise, even if they seem like decent anti-marine weapons.
Anyway, my dirt cheap 500 point starter list:
Shield captain (95) with stentinel blade and Storm shield (17) = 112 pts
Vexilus praetor (85) with guardian spear (5) = 90
3 Custodian guard w. spears (49 each)= 147
3 Custodian guard w spears (49 each) = 147
Total 496 pts.
Seeing as i can build that with just 2 regular custodian guard boxes, I'd say that's easily one of the cheapest 500 point starter armies i have seen. Went with storm shield and sword on the captain so he can damm well stay alive. on the I'm planning to give the shield captain the Sentinel blade relic and have the flag carrier take either the +1 attacks or the -1 to hit standard (leaning towards the latter, cant stabby stabby if i get shot to pieces beforehand!)
planned expansion would be adding a either a FW Contemptor dread or 3 termies, and a trio of bikes, which would likely take me up to 1000 points pretty easily.
is that a hopeless list? ok for causal (the level i plan to play at)? actually someone's tournament list i stumbled upon by accident?
1) the "sentinel storm" stratagem lets you shoot your sentinel blades pistol shots in the opponents turn, so long as you are in melee. Am i right in saying that this lets you shoot twice in a battle round (once in your turn, once in his)? and is that strat really worth 2CP given the fairly mediocre firepower 3-5 pistol shots can do?
2) I've been looking at the forge world stuff for the custodes. I see what people mean about the telemon being a better dread (though its currently out of stock, so its kinda a moot point at this time). My next question is over the halberd and sword n board dreads that FW do. Personally they seem quite fluffy and reasonably effective for thier points. does anyone use them, or are they just another dead end?
3) the assault-type guardian spear options form FW, any good or a waste of points? I quite like the Adrasite spears but three times the point cost is a steep rise, even if they seem like decent anti-marine weapons.
Anyway, my dirt cheap 500 point starter list:
Shield captain (95) with stentinel blade and Storm shield (17) = 112 pts
Vexilus praetor (85) with guardian spear (5) = 90
3 Custodian guard w. spears (49 each)= 147
3 Custodian guard w spears (49 each) = 147
Total 496 pts.
Seeing as i can build that with just 2 regular custodian guard boxes, I'd say that's easily one of the cheapest 500 point starter armies i have seen. Went with storm shield and sword on the captain so he can damm well stay alive. on the I'm planning to give the shield captain the Sentinel blade relic and have the flag carrier take either the +1 attacks or the -1 to hit standard (leaning towards the latter, cant stabby stabby if i get shot to pieces beforehand!)
planned expansion would be adding a either a FW Contemptor dread or 3 termies, and a trio of bikes, which would likely take me up to 1000 points pretty easily.
is that a hopeless list? ok for causal (the level i plan to play at)? actually someone's tournament list i stumbled upon by accident?
1) Yes, and is it worth it? In fringe cases when you have a big unit of shield guys and really need to finish of a unit. Otherwise probably not.
2) I play the galatus dreadnought (shield and sword) in almost all my games because it is my favorite model. I also play the achillus quite often. Both are not very competitive, but can be good sometimes. If you like the models, play them. The telemon is great all around.
3) I haven't personally tried the melta spears from FW so I can't share experiences. Are they worth the cost....I'm not sure honestly.
Your list is fine, but give your shield captain an axe and give him the eagles eye relic so he gets an 3+ invulnerable save. The list is ok for casual play, just talk to your opponent and know that 500p games are often very skewed an unbalanced.
As for army expansion. You can never go wrong with bikes and terminators. Both are great units.
As for FW dreads, just know that the galatus and achillus are not very competitive right now (might change with the new FW indexes), but if you like the models go for them, they are lovely sculpts. Telemon is great all around as I already mentioned.
1) the "sentinel storm" stratagem lets you shoot your sentinel blades pistol shots in the opponents turn, so long as you are in melee. Am i right in saying that this lets you shoot twice in a battle round (once in your turn, once in his)? and is that strat really worth 2CP given the fairly mediocre firepower 3-5 pistol shots can do?
2) I've been looking at the forge world stuff for the custodes. I see what people mean about the telemon being a better dread (though its currently out of stock, so its kinda a moot point at this time). My next question is over the halberd and sword n board dreads that FW do. Personally they seem quite fluffy and reasonably effective for thier points. does anyone use them, or are they just another dead end?
3) the assault-type guardian spear options form FW, any good or a waste of points? I quite like the Adrasite spears but three times the point cost is a steep rise, even if they seem like decent anti-marine weapons.
Anyway, my dirt cheap 500 point starter list:
Shield captain (95) with stentinel blade and Storm shield (17) = 112 pts
Vexilus praetor (85) with guardian spear (5) = 90
3 Custodian guard w. spears (49 each)= 147
3 Custodian guard w spears (49 each) = 147
Total 496 pts.
Seeing as i can build that with just 2 regular custodian guard boxes, I'd say that's easily one of the cheapest 500 point starter armies i have seen. Went with storm shield and sword on the captain so he can damm well stay alive. on the I'm planning to give the shield captain the Sentinel blade relic and have the flag carrier take either the +1 attacks or the -1 to hit standard (leaning towards the latter, cant stabby stabby if i get shot to pieces beforehand!)
planned expansion would be adding a either a FW Contemptor dread or 3 termies, and a trio of bikes, which would likely take me up to 1000 points pretty easily.
is that a hopeless list? ok for causal (the level i plan to play at)? actually someone's tournament list i stumbled upon by accident?
1. Sentinel Storm is a mess. Pass. They're just bolter shots, and it won't pay off.
2. Telemon is boss. The Contemptors are good, not great, but good. The Achillus is a prime candidate to throw eternal penitent on, and stick it in deep strike. Hits like a truck.
3. Waste of points. Stick to the basic dudes with spears if you want spears.
List: At 500 points, i'd drop the vexilla. You don't need it right now. I'd take the shield captain with a spear (I'd suggest gatekeeper relic, with superior fire patterns, he'll fire 12 shots in rapid fire for 1 cp).
Get at least 1 sword and board in each guard squad. Its alright for now. Your growth ideas sound good.
Is the Achillus flamer now 12" or is it still 8", because if it's 12" a trio of them could out telemon a Telemon. Also, how is the Andrathic Destructor (Plasma cannon) on it stock overcharged at base, with only S5. Booooooo
tulun wrote: Do Sagittarum Guard have much play, or is it pretty much always strictly better to just use Spear and/or Sword/board Guard squads?
Well it's a tradeoff. Guard with shield are obviously better at holding objectives, because they are harder to shift due to the 3+ invuln, but sagittarum can actually contribute to shooting in a useful fashion while sitting on objectives.
I think they can be quite useful in holding backfield objectives and plucking a wound or two off something you need shot.
Do they see much play nowadays....right now I don't see them popping up often in armylists.
Thing is, it's really hard to make a definitve judgement unitl we see the new forgeworld indexes. Depending on what they gain in these new rules, they might be really good.
tulun wrote: Do Sagittarum Guard have much play, or is it pretty much always strictly better to just use Spear and/or Sword/board Guard squads?
I think your options are either Shield guard, or Sag Guard. Spears are only 1 pt cheaper than Sag guard and aren't worth it in my experience.
Shields are some of the best objective holders in the game and are about to get buffed via Space Marine rules for storm shields and I have been using them, however I've been finding that if you stick one on a backfield objective it's 160+ pts of your army that doesn't really do anything, while Sagittarum Guard can shoot most of the board AND have a special "anti-gravis option" with their secondary fire mode. There is a chance that when heavy bolters go to damage 2 that their weapon does as well, but that's pure conjecture at this point.
I'm pretty new at custodes, so take everything I say here with a grain of salt until one of the big boys sweep in.
1) Yes, it is rather weak - BUT it adds damage to a otherwise very durable and, not that offensive, unit. Shield Guard are there to take objectives. If something numerous tries to swarm them, it MIGHT be worth it.
2) They are solid. 2+/5++/6+++ hitting with 4attacks on 2+ with S14? That is some good anti tank right there. Add in eternal penitent..
The Galatus is hard to shift. Combine an achillus with a telemon and your opponent has a hard choice in front of him.
3) IMO currently, its either Sagittarum Guard or Sword 'n Board.
I dont think guard with spears is currently worth it - like 2 SnB and 1 spear per unit is probably a good alrounder right now.
Sagittarum are the shooty version - consider those.
A praetor is a character, unless you have something to escort him (galatus, mayhaps?) he's gonna get targeted and die quick. And at that pts level, he is not gonna be a good force amplifier.
In the end, you cant go really wrong with custodes - allarus are good, bikes are good, dreads are good and troops are always needed. Also consider HQs for each - an Allarus Terminator and Blingfucker (Shield Captain on bike) is always useful.
tulun wrote: Do Sagittarum Guard have much play, or is it pretty much always strictly better to just use Spear and/or Sword/board Guard squads?
I think your options are either Shield guard, or Sag Guard. Spears are only 1 pt cheaper than Sag guard and aren't worth it in my experience.
Shields are some of the best objective holders in the game and are about to get buffed via Space Marine rules for storm shields and I have been using them, however I've been finding that if you stick one on a backfield objective it's 160+ pts of your army that doesn't really do anything, while Sagittarum Guard can shoot most of the board AND have a special "anti-gravis option" with their secondary fire mode. There is a chance that when heavy bolters go to damage 2 that their weapon does as well, but that's pure conjecture at this point.
I'm looking into Custodes and was wondering.
I kind of hate the idea of just 3 dudes sitting back and doing nothing -- 160 points is A LOT not contributing. I would be more inclined to do a 1/2 Shield / Spear because at least you're shooting a bit.
But if you do that, you might as well just take Sagitarum guard because their shooting output is a lot better.
Don't forget the spears strat that gives them +1 to wound. Also you could pop avenge the fallen (?) the strat that gives them +1 attack for every model slain that turn, so I forget the math, but for maximum squad, which someone placed highly with in a all infantry list, using 10 man guardian squads and spears, got 5+attacks on his squads after losing 5 to shooting. Thats 5 guys with 7 attacks each at S6 AP2 DD3, and +1 to wound. Pretty disgusting if your opponent doesn't see it coming. Guardians are often overlooked, like the pawns in chess. But they can be deadly if played well.
tulun wrote: Do Sagittarum Guard have much play, or is it pretty much always strictly better to just use Spear and/or Sword/board Guard squads?
I think your options are either Shield guard, or Sag Guard. Spears are only 1 pt cheaper than Sag guard and aren't worth it in my experience.
Shields are some of the best objective holders in the game and are about to get buffed via Space Marine rules for storm shields and I have been using them, however I've been finding that if you stick one on a backfield objective it's 160+ pts of your army that doesn't really do anything, while Sagittarum Guard can shoot most of the board AND have a special "anti-gravis option" with their secondary fire mode. There is a chance that when heavy bolters go to damage 2 that their weapon does as well, but that's pure conjecture at this point.
I'm looking into Custodes and was wondering.
I kind of hate the idea of just 3 dudes sitting back and doing nothing -- 160 points is A LOT not contributing. I would be more inclined to do a 1/2 Shield / Spear because at least you're shooting a bit.
But if you do that, you might as well just take Sagitarum guard because their shooting output is a lot better.
having read some of the tactics links i got upwind, several suggest using a Sisters of Silence bolter squad (Prosecutors), which basically give you a 5 man sisters of battle squad to park on a rear objective (still with Obsec) for like 50 points, with more shooting than a regular custodes guard unit to boot, plus something that can ignore look out, sir rules when shooting at pyskers to claim that anti-psyker secondary. all in all, it sounds like good investment.
So, competitively, the prevailing thought seems to be leaving a shooty Telemon to hold a back objective I think.
There are also builds splashing in Tempestus Scions and using them to auto-score Deploy Scramblers for an easy 10 points.
Remember, since most maps are hold 2 for 10, secondaries frequently matter more than primaries (both players will almost always get 40). My advice is to build your list around secondaries, not around primaries. The odd map where it's 3 for 10 is when you can use your bully ObSec units, like Terminators, to actually do something on the primary front.
the jetbikes will likely be run with missiles to give me some ranged AT weaponry. the Contemptor-Achillus gets in simply because its a cool looking model that happens to just perfectly fit into the points left. The standard bearer will sneak in behind the 5 man squad to keep it alive and the cap and other squad go off to catch something else.
I notice that the Power Level ratings for these units seem a little high for their points. I thought a 1,000 point list was supposed to be about PL 50 or so?
So please correct me Sterling, but SoS don't get ObSec, unless I am mistaken. A lot of videos have people begging for sisters to become troops JUST to be allowed ObSec.
They are elites, and do not share the Custodes Keyword, so I do not believe they get the great Custodes obsec, unfortunately....
Yeah, Canhammer did a thing on them a while back, saying how they would be crucial to the success of Custodes, (Along with the Ares) but that they are just front line meat shields, not objective campers. In their current state. I really hope that will change, they are just beautiful models, some of my favorite, and I'd like to be able to use them one day....
while surfing youtube i came across this video discussing the changes to Codex: Space marines.
what caught my attention was the part at 3:30 where they said that the Storm Shield was changing form a 3++ to a 4++ and +1 to regular saves. seeing as how any changes to SM kit will propagate out to everyone else with the same equipment, this change would affect our sword & board units. given that we already have +2 saves, unless the storm shield lets us ignore a point of AP value, this would be a strict nerf to our troops. i've not seen this mentioned before (then again, that might just be me not paying attention).
so, what do people think of this? it seems like a direct reduction of our sword & board troops to sit on objectives and hold them, unless i am missing something important.
Emperor's Chosen would bring them back to 3++ so it'd be a strict buff, bringing them to 1+/3++. But apparently GW mentioned that the new storm shields won't be immediately ported to everything outside SM so it could still change.
slave.entity wrote: Emperor's Chosen would bring them back to 3++ so it'd be a strict buff, bringing them to 1+/3++. But apparently GW mentioned that the new storm shields won't be immediately ported to everything outside SM so it could still change.
ok, hang on a second.
I havent got the codex for these guys yet (on my payday buy list). are you saying that the "aegis of the Emperor" 5++ is actually 4++ in battle forged Custodes detachments?
xerxeskingofking wrote: ....i didnt realise that. bloody hell, thats a hell of a thing to overlook.
so, storm shields are currently 2++? or is their a FAQ that limits ++ saves to 3++ at best?
The Emperor's Chosen caps at 3++. The primary benefit is that any AP1 weapon will plink off of a 2+ armor save, while AP2+ weapons will hit the invuln.
slave.entity wrote: Emperor's Chosen would bring them back to 3++ so it'd be a strict buff, bringing them to 1+/3++. But apparently GW mentioned that the new storm shields won't be immediately ported to everything outside SM so it could still change.
It doesn't improve the save characteristic. It just gives +1 to the roll. Effectively, it let's us ignore AP-1 permanently (because AP is just a minus to the roll). GW specifically listed our shields as being affected so decent odds we get it in October I'd say.
It's a straight buff all around. We went into details 2-3 pages back.
I just hope the Power sword changes hit our swords, +1S 3AP D2. That alone would make a big buff to us. I wonder what changes they could make to the miseracordia to buff it's usefulness. Right now it's just like a chain sword that costs a few points and can be used with other melee weapons. What if they made them ap4 d1.just to set them apart from chain swords somehow?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I just hope the Power sword changes hit our swords, +1S 3AP D2. That alone would make a big buff to us. I wonder what changes they could make to the miseracordia to buff it's usefulness. Right now it's just like a chain sword that costs a few points and can be used with other melee weapons. What if they made them ap4 d1.just to set them apart from chain swords somehow?
Then having AP at all set them apart. I guess with SM having AP on theirs now a change is in order.
I'd say make them an alt weapon that can do 1D3 additional attack. That way, Spears/axes/Sag could go horde mode with it
slave.entity wrote: Emperor's Chosen would bring them back to 3++ so it'd be a strict buff, bringing them to 1+/3++. But apparently GW mentioned that the new storm shields won't be immediately ported to everything outside SM so it could still change.
It doesn't improve the save characteristic. It just gives +1 to the roll. Effectively, it let's us ignore AP-1 permanently (because AP is just a minus to the roll). GW specifically listed our shields as being affected so decent odds we get it in October I'd say.
It's a straight buff all around. We went into details 2-3 pages back.
The codex entry says it improves the save characteristic. Was it FAQ'd?
EDIT: Oh I see you're referring to the new storm shields, not the Custodes trait. Yes, I'm aware of what the new storm shields do. It's not technically a 1+ sv but it's close enough to call it that. 1s always fail so there is no danger of ambiguity.
I'd say make them an alt weapon that can do 1D3 additional attack. That way, Spears/axes/Sag could go horde mode with it
If you restrict the Mizzy attacks, its a net nerf for Sags. The Mizzy *is* their primary melee weapon, and reducing them to punches would be problematic.
xerxeskingofking wrote: So if i understand correctly, that +1 to regular saves would mean we basically ignore -1ap, because we'd still be at 2+ anyways?
Yes. To put another way, reduce all AP against you by 1, which means that in cover, you'd still get a 2+ against AP-2.
That is, once the Custodes Dex is updated. For now, it's just a 3++.
I'd say make them an alt weapon that can do 1D3 additional attack. That way, Spears/axes/Sag could go horde mode with it
If you restrict the Mizzy attacks, its a net nerf for Sags. The Mizzy *is* their primary melee weapon, and reducing them to punches would be problematic.
I didn't mean to be saying that. 'additional attacks' is just how GW phrases that stuff (like the current Miseri). So they could still do all their attacks with them.
slave.entity wrote: Emperor's Chosen would bring them back to 3++ so it'd be a strict buff, bringing them to 1+/3++. But apparently GW mentioned that the new storm shields won't be immediately ported to everything outside SM so it could still change.
It doesn't improve the save characteristic. It just gives +1 to the roll. Effectively, it let's us ignore AP-1 permanently (because AP is just a minus to the roll). GW specifically listed our shields as being affected so decent odds we get it in October I'd say.
It's a straight buff all around. We went into details 2-3 pages back.
The codex entry says it improves the save characteristic. Was it FAQ'd?
EDIT: Oh I see you're referring to the new storm shields, not the Custodes trait. Yes, I'm aware of what the new storm shields do. It's not technically a 1+ sv but it's close enough to call it that. 1s always fail so there is no danger of ambiguity.
The big difference is a 1+ save is effectively a 2++ and would ignore even infinite AP because AP modifies the roll, not the characteristic. 2+ with a +1 to the roll functions a little different (ignore AP-1). But yes, it won't matter most of the time.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Sag's only really get 1 attack per model right? how does giving them the potential for 3 extra attacks nerf them?
No, they get their 3 stat line attacks, plus the extra misa attack, ALL WITH the misa profile as you can just choose to use it for your regular attacks. If they had another melee weapon (like spear or sword armed Guards), they could use that for their normal three with that weapon, then one with the misa profile.
In theory they could choose to make their normal 3 with default "close combat weapon" profile, but since they have the misa, why would they when they can make 4 with the misa profile?
In theory they could choose to make their normal 3 with default "close combat weapon" profile, but since they have the misa, why would they when they can make 4 with the misa profile?
GW changed this in 9th edition, models no longer get access to the basic ccw if they already have another melee weapon. So they have no choice but to make their attacks with a misericordia if you equip them with one.
However the wording of a misericordia is that you 'may' make an additional attack with it, so you can still choose to only make 3 attacks with each model (if you don't want to wipe out what you're fighting for example).
Has anyone brought Land Raiders to the party for Custodes recently? I've been having fun with one as my back objective holder that take out tanks while the Terminators/Wardens/Praetors rush upfield. I'm going to build and try out a dual Land Raider list and see if they survive.
Also, for the points, the basic Shield Captain with an Axe is fantastic. 105 points and a CP to get an 8W 3++ killer has been great.
Ditch it for more firepower (like the terminus Ultra) or drop the points cost.
There is litterally no reason to put people inside the land raider as a custodes player so why am i being forced to pay points for it?
Righto, I understand you now. However, there's a few good reasons to start in the transport. One is protection from first turn shooting. Two is the 3" of bonus movement getting out, to propel upfield in your first turn. Combine that with the Solar Watch warlord trait and you've got a 10" move upfield right from the start.
Solar watch wouldnt work, as they would be in the transport and not be affected by it. You have to be inside the aura at the start of the movement phase to get the bonus.
Also, a LR isnt that hard to kill, and loosing both it and potentially one or more 50+ pt models to a bad roll is not exactly an attractive proposition.
Eihnlazer wrote: Solar watch wouldnt work, as they would be in the transport and not be affected by it. You have to be inside the aura at the start of the movement phase to get the bonus.
Also, a LR isnt that hard to kill, and loosing both it and potentially one or more 50+ pt models to a bad roll is not exactly an attractive proposition.
Good call on the Solar Watch movement bonus, forgot how it was worded. Still a 9" move for the Infantry, which is nice. I agree it's worrisome to lose the LR and then roll some 1s. I'll give it a go and report back in!
List looks great. Speedy, flexible and hard hitting.
Couple small things I'd consider:
swapping all of the hurricanes out for salvoes. I've found their lack of AP to make them criminally underwhelming, and you have some lastrum that can serve as light horde clearing. Salvoes are simply amazing with the new stratagem to pop vehicles, something your list only has in the telemon. In addition from that they provide beautiful, high quality shots, that can serve as late game character popping when the enemies screens fall apart or to plink a couple guys from an expensive squad.
Another would be to swap the magnifica for an Imperius. With a list this fast, the magnifica won't have as much of a bearing on the game as +1 att will. When you want something to be protected from shooting in 9th, you can hide it. And then this makes the already killy terminators into absolute machines after a teleport homer. With these 10 points you can grab a S+B guy for the guard, which is absolutely necessary if you take them for objective grabbing.
Also; not a change I'd suggest necessarily, but see how you like Valoris. His free 3cp is so amazing, but other than that he often feels too slow/underwhelming, especially in a list this quick. I've found duo bike captains to be a little more flexible and provide more of a nuisance to the enemy in some cases (also allowing you to triple up on S+B): have a play around and see what you think.
Not going to lie, but that is a nice list, and as an opponent I would find that hard to play capture the flag against. That being said an all heavy support list could crush it easily. You have basically 2 units that are dedicated anti-tank, the rest are anti-horde or less optimal at anti-t8. I would swap out the bikes for a second set of terms. But that's just me, and I usually like to come prepped to face off against at least 1-2 Repulsors/T8 Gun platforms.
Wasn't Greyknight saying something like this would do well? Just got 3rd at a GT (I think a Major too):
ADEPTUS CUSTODES
Shield Company: Shadowkeepers
Patrol Detachment -2/+2
(HQ Warlord) Ryokom and Shynobi – Shield Captain, Dawn eagle jet bike, Salvo launcher, Auric aquilas, Emperor’s companion, Slayer of the unclean -1CP 175pts
So my problem with the melta spears is that you are literally not able to use the +1 to wound strat on them, as they are not guardian spears. Also they suck at their intended purpose. 6" s8 shot for d3+3 damage?
Nah, just stick with regular spears and get the wound strat.
So, reading goonhammer marine article, thunderhammers seemingly did not go up to damage 4, unless they made a mistake. And honor the chapter was nerfed in what it effects.
These are two really big deals for custodes in a marine matchup as it limits the attritional damage our units take against the enemy in combat. And stops a slam captain from like acing a terminator squad (slam captains are still a thing)
stratigo wrote: So, reading goonhammer marine article, thunderhammers seemingly did not go up to damage 4, unless they made a mistake. And honor the chapter was nerfed in what it effects.
These are two really big deals for custodes in a marine matchup as it limits the attritional damage our units take against the enemy in combat. And stops a slam captain from like acing a terminator squad (slam captains are still a thing)
Spot on. The other really big change is that only one unit is getting full hit re-rolls now, the rest of the army is only re-rolling ones. This makes (for me at least) the Vexilla Magnifica debate more interesting, as it will be more effective but is probably also less necessary.
I am still planning on leaning heavy on bikes cause I love em, so magnifica will remain my go to for a first turn survivability buff to a mega squad of bikes.
On another not, hurricane bikes could be cycling back into the meta as hordes get more dominant, with marines getting a pretty hard nerf on their former best anti horde option. Not entirely sure what marines do for efficient anti horde work now.
Custodes have a real weakness at both AT and at anti horde. I find that hurricanes simply do not make up the difference now they're priced equally- they do just not enough.
Salvoes, for me, are quite a bit more multi purpose. The fact they have the d3 profile that you can use too makes them far better in terms of adaptability. And while custodes are weak at AT, everyone knows that a couple of lucky salvo shots has the potential to shore up that weakness, whereas the hurricanes generally don't.
I think that salvoes are better for when you have one squad of bikes, but if you begin to lean in heavier and take another squad then that one should definitely be hurricanes.
McMagnus Mindbullets wrote: Custodes have a real weakness at both AT and at anti horde. I find that hurricanes simply do not make up the difference now they're priced equally- they do just not enough.
Salvoes, for me, are quite a bit more multi purpose. The fact they have the d3 profile that you can use too makes them far better in terms of adaptability. And while custodes are weak at AT, everyone knows that a couple of lucky salvo shots has the potential to shore up that weakness, whereas the hurricanes generally don't.
I think that salvoes are better for when you have one squad of bikes, but if you begin to lean in heavier and take another squad then that one should definitely be hurricanes.
I'll stake out the anti-position here. Salvos are largely unneeded unless you are almost pure Jetbikes. Telemons, Aries and Caladii, not to mention *melee* provide plenty of anti-T8. When I run Jetbikes, I take 8-10 of them. Stocking them all with hurricanes (and Sally Forth for Advance and Fire) gives you immense range and 96-120 shots.
Hordes, from Orks to Guard to Shield Drones to Tyraniid, will melt. You even get some adaptability against T7. 120 shots, Re-Rolling 1's to Hit, still rips off 12.96 wounds on average from a T7 3+ profile. The only time it doesn't work 'in a pinch' is T8+ or 2+'s which are less common to run into outside the Knight meta.
When you go almost pure though, you'll want some Salvos for those T8 targets.
stratigo wrote: there's a huge difference between 12 shots and 3. Salvos only, really, gain 1 ap and wound 1 better for a quarter of the firepower.
And lances are a solid AT tool, so you need it less than you'd think. Custodes lack RANGED AT, not all AT.
The main issue right now is everyone is teching to beat custodes.
Well said. This is our first time on top of the mountain. Now everyone needs 3 squads of Exterminators(? Meltas) and 3 aggressor squads. It's basically waiting until the pendulum swings back to anti-cheap horde. Here's praying that IG conscripts and Bloodletters are horrifically broken to take the lens off us.
they aren't, but ork boyz, nurglings, and demonettes are appearing in vast quantities now.
Eradicators are so good that they will be in every competitive marine list regardless of what the marine player is teching for until they get a nerf though.
From the FAQ: Storm shields do the Marine thing now (+1 save / 4++) and heavy bolters+melta got the upgraded profiles...which just affects the Land Raider and Contemptor. So buff to Custodian Guard and Codex Vehicles.
With everyone else rocking new heavy bolters and melta, possibly a nerf to Custodes overall.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Too bad the spears dont get the Melta buff, and too bad our contemptor didn't get the buff. Or did it? Is it a Heavy Multi-melta? 2 shots of d6+4?
My bad, the multi-melta did get the buff. I’ll update. No Forgeworld stuff got updated, my guess is GW is holding off on anything with that until the new Imperial Armor comes out (and it will probably already be included).
It sucks that most of our good stuff is FW, and thus doesn't fall under "Must have these special words" rule. Poor Pythrite Spears and Plasma flame fists.
We need our FW update badly. firepikes need to be free for aquilons and the telemons plasma flamers need 12" range + he needs the -1 damage update other dreads got. Calidius tanks are probably gonna get the same treatment SM grav tanks got so I expect points drops on them or +2 wounds.
Aquilons could even gain a wound for +5pts. They are chonkier than allarus afterall.
Custodes need a full rework that they aren't gonna see for a year or two. But hey, hopefully covid will be over by the time it's out and I can actually play with them again
Automatically Appended Next Post: What kind of irritates me is that, like, sanquinary guard weapons all got an updated profile including sticking them to damage 2, but GW couldn't spend the effort to just give custodes weapons damage 2? Or make our power swords equal to other power swords?
stratigo wrote: Custodes need a full rework that they aren't gonna see for a year or two. But hey, hopefully covid will be over by the time it's out and I can actually play with them again
Automatically Appended Next Post: What kind of irritates me is that, like, sanquinary guard weapons all got an updated profile including sticking them to damage 2, but GW couldn't spend the effort to just give custodes weapons damage 2? Or make our power swords equal to other power swords?
But we're not marines, so, git fethed I guess.
Thats easy. They had a new release they want to sell. No one was buying plastic Custodes before the updates, so why waste rules one them. They wanted people buying the new release, not models from 2017.
GW also had upgraded relic blades to D2 in the main marine codex (which is basically the Sanguinary guard weapon) so the focus is obviously going to be on updating marine factions. They also lost all of their psychic awakening stuff.
There are LOTS of factions that didn’t get similar profiles updated; look at Tau/Eldar players complaining about fusion weapons and grey knights about still having one wound. It’s not a comprehensive update for the game, so acting like Custodes got shafted is pretty short-sighted. Custodes have been a top tier faction so far in 9th and will probably remain that way for awhile; if anything I see the marine codex as a slight nerf to the SM factions (we’ll see how the supplements go). The biggest impact of the broader updates will be a buff to sisters of battle (who were already being talked about as a top tier faction) and the absurd buff to Dark Angels terminators which may get FAQ’d again.
I think saying anyone is a "x" tier faction in 9th is pretty short sighted. It's been the edition for what, 4 months, and all of that has been covid, so there are no real good top GTs to gauge what is or is not top tier. Custodes were top for a hot second, but the recent changes to marines shift that heavily.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I think saying anyone is a "x" tier faction in 9th is pretty short sighted. It's been the edition for what, 4 months, and all of that has been covid, so there are no real good top GTs to gauge what is or is not top tier. Custodes were top for a hot second, but the recent changes to marines shift that heavily.
Let me spell this out for you:
Marines
Got
Nerfed.
They may have changed up some wargear options, but the loss of full re-rolls and re-rolls on their characters means they connect with alot less attacks. Their storm shield changes mean the plethora of AP-1/2 D2 weaponry is going to chew them up at range (including the new heavy bolters). Transhuman only works on primaris marines (and Dark Angels) now. They got some new options, but nothing they didn't have at the start of 9th other than Heavy Intercessors.
I'm not saying Custodes are the best army, nor that Marines aren't. Neither is anyone else. But Custodes have had a series of strong showings in the events that have happened and been doing just fine so far, which is frankly where I'd like them to be rather than OP instant win button.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I think saying anyone is a "x" tier faction in 9th is pretty short sighted. It's been the edition for what, 4 months, and all of that has been covid, so there are no real good top GTs to gauge what is or is not top tier. Custodes were top for a hot second, but the recent changes to marines shift that heavily.
Let me spell this out for you:
Marines
Got
Nerfed.
They may have changed up some wargear options, but the loss of full re-rolls and re-rolls on their characters means they connect with alot less attacks. Their storm shield changes mean the plethora of AP-1/2 D2 weaponry is going to chew them up at range (including the new heavy bolters). Transhuman only works on primaris marines (and Dark Angels) now. They got some new options, but nothing they didn't have at the start of 9th other than Heavy Intercessors.
I'm not saying Custodes are the best army, nor that Marines aren't. Neither is anyone else. But Custodes have had a series of strong showings in the events that have happened and been doing just fine so far, which is frankly where I'd like them to be rather than OP instant win button.
Marines didn't actually get nerfed.
No really, all the competitive marine lists? They didn't lose power. Salamanders are gonna remain the terror of the table for some time to come.
The only real difference is in casual games a marine player can't be completely ignorant of his strats and not put any effort into list building and still skate to victory against their buddies with ease. But no one competitive is that laize faire about list building, which is where marines are utterly and completely fine and their power hasn't changed at all.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I think saying anyone is a "x" tier faction in 9th is pretty short sighted. It's been the edition for what, 4 months, and all of that has been covid, so there are no real good top GTs to gauge what is or is not top tier. Custodes were top for a hot second, but the recent changes to marines shift that heavily.
Let me spell this out for you:
Marines
Got
Nerfed.
They may have changed up some wargear options, but the loss of full re-rolls and re-rolls on their characters means they connect with alot less attacks. Their storm shield changes mean the plethora of AP-1/2 D2 weaponry is going to chew them up at range (including the new heavy bolters). Transhuman only works on primaris marines (and Dark Angels) now. They got some new options, but nothing they didn't have at the start of 9th other than Heavy Intercessors.
I'm not saying Custodes are the best army, nor that Marines aren't. Neither is anyone else. But Custodes have had a series of strong showings in the events that have happened and been doing just fine so far, which is frankly where I'd like them to be rather than OP instant win button.
Marines didn't actually get nerfed.
No really, all the competitive marine lists? They didn't lose power. Salamanders are gonna remain the terror of the table for some time to come.
The only real difference is in casual games a marine player can't be completely ignorant of his strats and not put any effort into list building and still skate to victory against their buddies with ease. But no one competitive is that laize faire about list building, which is where marines are utterly and completely fine and their power hasn't changed at all.
This isn't entirely true. Grav-devs were pretty important, especially to WS, and they lost their strat from what I read.
grav devs werent giving us any problems either since Emporer's auspice completely shut them down.
Aggressors loosing double shoot? Not an issue for us, as even double shooting they were doing like 3 wounds to one of our squads.
As far as custodes go, Marines got a buff. They can now take more eradicators, and they can take more bladeguard.
Not to mention their dreadnoughts dont have to pay CP for the -1 dam strat anymore.
Also, how are we gonna chew through 5 obsec DW outriders? We have nothing efficient for that. Yeah i guess i can throw terminators at it, but thats a bad exchange.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I think saying anyone is a "x" tier faction in 9th is pretty short sighted. It's been the edition for what, 4 months, and all of that has been covid, so there are no real good top GTs to gauge what is or is not top tier. Custodes were top for a hot second, but the recent changes to marines shift that heavily.
Let me spell this out for you:
Marines
Got
Nerfed.
They may have changed up some wargear options, but the loss of full re-rolls and re-rolls on their characters means they connect with alot less attacks. Their storm shield changes mean the plethora of AP-1/2 D2 weaponry is going to chew them up at range (including the new heavy bolters). Transhuman only works on primaris marines (and Dark Angels) now. They got some new options, but nothing they didn't have at the start of 9th other than Heavy Intercessors.
I'm not saying Custodes are the best army, nor that Marines aren't. Neither is anyone else. But Custodes have had a series of strong showings in the events that have happened and been doing just fine so far, which is frankly where I'd like them to be rather than OP instant win button.
Marines didn't actually get nerfed.
No really, all the competitive marine lists? They didn't lose power. Salamanders are gonna remain the terror of the table for some time to come.
The only real difference is in casual games a marine player can't be completely ignorant of his strats and not put any effort into list building and still skate to victory against their buddies with ease. But no one competitive is that laize faire about list building, which is where marines are utterly and completely fine and their power hasn't changed at all.
This isn't entirely true. Grav-devs were pretty important, especially to WS, and they lost their strat from what I read.
They did.
The best devs are multi melta devs now, which are suppressed by how good eradicators are. If eradicators get nerfed.... marines will all break out 4 multimelta dev squads for a very minimal change on the meta.
But the very best, salamanders, are gonna stay the very best, and their aggressors continue to rock that anti infantry fire power while they buff the metlas that are the new meta.
So am I still wrong, or did Custodes fall off the Meta shelf for the time being?
Marines still have disgustingly efficient ways of deleting our boys, bikes, and bots, I don't think anything has changed. We will not see any major changes to the Meta until COVID drops off and we can start seeing actual GTs again, and the top lists begin to emerge.
Till then we are still stuck fielding stupidly expensive FW lists just to break into the competitive brackets. Ares, Aquillons, and Telemons.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So am I still wrong, or did Custodes fall off the Meta shelf for the time being?
Marines still have disgustingly efficient ways of deleting our boys, bikes, and bots, I don't think anything has changed. We will not see any major changes to the Meta until COVID drops off and we can start seeing actual GTs again, and the top lists begin to emerge.
Till then we are still stuck fielding stupidly expensive FW lists just to break into the competitive brackets. Ares, Aquillons, and Telemons.
I mean, your third line kind of answers your first. We do, indeed, do well in the meta, but only if we're primarily forgeworld and jetbikes (as the one list I posted that podium'd a GT shows). The new storm shield change is great for us and make sword+board the clear winner of troops in my opinion.
Both an Astra Militarum infantry list and a Tyranid horde list did well in GT's recently too. The marine list that got 1st (WS) used two squads of grav-devs he can't rely on anymore. Impulsors were also important and got smacked. So marines are going to have to adjust and we'll see what happens from there. Chaos is still strong with both a mass nurgling (40+) variant for Death Guard and a monster mash list for daemons. Harlequins+Dark Eldar are still tearing up. AdMech/Imperial Knight combos leaning heavily on Cerbrys Raiders, or however you spell it, are also doing well.
So end result is the podium placing factions look something like:
Astra Militarum
Tyranids
Space Marines
Custodes
Death Guard
Chaos Daemons
Harlequins
Dark Eldar
AdMech
Imperial Knights
Making soup lists with each other or standing solo. The meta is actually shaping up to be pretty healthy at this point.
Can we really trust GT's in COVID right now? I mean, yes, they are GT's, but are the top players really leaving to go to GT in California right now? Or Europe?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Can we really trust GT's in COVID right now? I mean, yes, they are GT's, but are the top players really leaving to go to GT in California right now? Or Europe?
Sure, there are top players still sheltering (and I don't look down on that as I am too), but it's the data we have. There are people going, some of them are quite good and these are what are doing well at those. It's more concrete data than forum speculation so it's the most likely of what we've got available to us in terms of information.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Can we really trust GT's in COVID right now? I mean, yes, they are GT's, but are the top players really leaving to go to GT in California right now? Or Europe?
Sure, there are top players still sheltering (and I don't look down on that as I am too), but it's the data we have. There are people going, some of them are quite good and these are what are doing well at those. It's more concrete data than forum speculation so it's the most likely of what we've got available to us in terms of information.
The main issue is, as stated before, while everyone used to be able to tech to kill a knight in one turn, everyone has teched to kill a squad of custodes terminators in a turn.
For space marine you can even do both with the same unit .
Yeah i dont know who was the moron at GW that looked at the rules and said "Thunder hammers on characters is a bit broken. Lets nerf those and then give the new space marines a unit that can throw 12 of them at 24". Since they dont have character protection its way more balanced."
You know it's actually funny. Harlequins and Eldar(both Colors) have been able to wipe us out almost since the start of their factions. We die very easy to Psykers. Something tells me GW doesn't like Psykers any more. Everything has to be shooty as all get out.
No really, all the competitive marine lists? They didn't lose power. Salamanders are gonna remain the terror of the table for some time to come.
Let's see. They lost rerolls to vehicles bar dreadnoughts. Funny thing you mention salamanders since their trait got hit by nerfbat itself. Aggressors lost twin shooting, centurions no more rerolls. No more 3++ period(unlike custodians who still enjoy 3++. Not many other armies in the game that can go to 3++ anymore. Necrons also lost all access to 3++ plus obviously their trick to get 2++)
Aggressors getting nerfed brings them not into D tier, but from S tier down to maybe A+ tier. They still put out a disgusting ammount of shots for the cost, and they are easily one of the most points effective units in the game.
SM dreads are still a major threat with the right chapter. IH still has UGLY Dread options. If you think SM are "nerfed" then I'd love to know what you considered a buff.
No really, all the competitive marine lists? They didn't lose power. Salamanders are gonna remain the terror of the table for some time to come.
Let's see. They lost rerolls to vehicles bar dreadnoughts. Funny thing you mention salamanders since their trait got hit by nerfbat itself. Aggressors lost twin shooting, centurions no more rerolls. No more 3++ period(unlike custodians who still enjoy 3++. Not many other armies in the game that can go to 3++ anymore. Necrons also lost all access to 3++ plus obviously their trick to get 2++)
Salamander aggressors can still double shoot with a stratagem
Their trait nerf was extremely minor. And never Really mattered anyways.
Space marine vehicles had been out of meta for almost half a year through repeated nerfs, and centurions ate enough nerfs at the same time to kick them out of the top meta, this is more rubbing salt into the wound of centurions.
iGuy91 wrote: Any ideas about going up against Grey Knights nowadays with Custodes? I'm not sure what to expect at 1500, but I've been told its not a paladin bomb.
Right, they're not Paladin bombing anymore. Probably not optimal to do so at 1,500 anyway, but that doesn't mean you won't see it, just that it's unlikely.
I -think- nowadays it's swung to Terminator spam. You get most of the same benefits as a Paladin bomb, but ObSec. It's just a bit less shooty and durable (though cheaper). They did get some ranged weapon upgrades so watch out for Astral Aim on a Purgation Squad or 10 man Terminator Squad. GMDK's aren't too favored so not likely to be seen.
Hemming and hawing my way through that I realized I can really just sum it up like this. Your opponent is likely to do one of two things:
Old Meta: Paladins/Terminators in big squads making use of stratagem buffs and astral aim. This army can charge and it does hurt, but that's not the focus. The focus is on shooting and Smite'ing you down while holding objectives. Gate and Deep Strike are used for positioning.
Assault: If their warlord has First to the Fray then expect this. The focus is melee and using re-rollable charges on as many units as possible to connect as much as possible on a massive strike.
Some time ago people in this thread thought wounding a whole army only on 4+ would be totaly broken. Well you can now field an army where almost all units have transhuman active all the time.
and then there is this:
Deathwing knights now have 3 wounds.
Hit on 2's, can only be wounded on a 4+, have weapons with strength 8 -2 ap and flat 3 damage.
4+ invulnerable saves with 2+ armour saves ignoring -1 AP.
On top of doctrines and shock assault all for 47 points.
When a custode has less than that for 2 more points
So i think with marines and necrons getting a boost in toughness custodes will fallow.
GW tries to make units tougher but also increases the damage output of a lot of units. This makes little sense to me. the games needs to be less deadly IMO.
On another note, what secondaries do you pick? Do you built your army with some sceondaries in mind? Since most action-secondaries are not easly done by custodes and we don't have psykers 40% of the secondaries are not doable for us. I used to go for engage on all fronts grind them down and either assassinate or bring it down. But engage is really hard to max. and not all lists have a lot of monsters or vehivles and/or characters
Do you use sisters to hold objectives?
nordsturmking wrote: Some time ago people in this thread thought wounding a whole army only on 4+ would be totaly broken. Well you can now field an army where almost all units have transhuman active all the time.
and then there is this:
Deathwing knights now have 3 wounds.
Hit on 2's, can only be wounded on a 4+, have weapons with strength 8 -2 ap and flat 3 damage.
4+ invulnerable saves with 2+ armour saves ignoring -1 AP.
On top of doctrines and shock assault all for 47 points.
When a custode has less than that for 2 more points
So i think with marines and necrons getting a boost in toughness custodes will fallow.
GW tries to make units tougher but also increases the damage output of a lot of units. This makes little sense to me. the games needs to be less deadly IMO.
On another note, what secondaries do you pick? Do you built your army with some sceondaries in mind? Since most action-secondaries are not easly done by custodes and we don't have psykers 40% of the secondaries are not doable for us. I used to go for engage on all fronts grind them down and either assassinate or bring it down. But engage is really hard to max. and not all lists have a lot of monsters or vehivles and/or characters
Do you use sisters to hold objectives?
I guess that raises the questions:
How far can you fairly buff custodes? Right now we are all Character level infantry. Top that off with our cheapest unit is 3w a model. Give us more wounds and bikes become pointless. Give Bikes more wounds and tanks/dredds become pointless. Lower the cost and our entire faction becomes broken.
How can you possibly buff what is already a borderline "everything is a chapter master" army?
Space Marines creep on everyone's design space.. well, except hordes maybe.
They won't buff custodes.
Just looking at what TWC got - +1A, +1W, Move and Charge and a price drop, e.g.
The aforementioned Deathwing Knights.
I got into Custodes because I wanted the marine itch scratched, but not delve into the bloated mess that are SM and support that further after dropping my DA years ago. I wanted the biggest and baddest... but when has lore ever mattered to the rules team?
There is so much they could do to buff us and makes us more interesting..
I've posted these before, but just these profile changes to our main weapons would give us a buff and make for more interesting choices:
Sentinel Blade:
S: User; AP: -3; D: D3
Abilities: every time the user fights with this weapon, he can make D3 additional attacks in this fight phase.
Guardian Spear (two profiles!): every time the bearer fights, choose which weapon profile you are going to use for this fight phase.
Profile1:
S: User; AP: -2; D: D3
Abilities: when choosing this profile treat every attack from the users profile as 2 attacks instead.
Profile2:
S: +2; AP: -3; D: 2
Castellan Axe:
S: +3; AP: -2; D: 2
Abilities: In a turn in which the bearer has successfully charged, change the weapon profile to the following for the fight phase: S: x2; AP: -2; D: D3+1
They could give our units more interesting special rules. In 7th guardian spears could be used to block incoming attacks if you rolled above what your opponent rolled on his attack roll. They could give our wardens a 5+ feelnopain to make them more viable again etc...
My point is there is a plethora of possibilities and opportunities to buff our guys slightly, without making them over the top
stratigo wrote: Proliferation of grav armor ate the niche of custodes at being better marines pretty hard
So give custodes more special abilities to distinguish them from Marines an hammer home the point of them being martial paragons. That's the only serious option in my opinion
You can't inflate the profile stats of custodes more except for maybe wounds and attacks. If you make them S6 base, or even worse T6 base, it would be too much obviously.
Now I'm not saying you think custodes should be T6 base, but my point is that you can't really go another direction than to give them more special abilities....and buff their weapons of course to be on par with marines.
stratigo wrote: Proliferation of grav armor ate the niche of custodes at being better marines pretty hard
So give custodes more special abilities to distinguish them from Marines an hammer home the point of them being martial paragons. That's the only serious option in my opinion
You can't inflate the profile stats of custodes more except for maybe wounds and attacks. If you make them S6 base, or even worse T6 base, it would be too much obviously.
Now I'm not saying you think custodes should be T6 base, but my point is that you can't really go another direction than to give them more special abilities....and buff their weapons of course to be on par with marines.
I totaly agree Custodes need to be way better than marines model per model. But at this point custodes pretty much need army wide transhuman, 1+ armor, 4-5 attacks, 4-5 wounds or they are just golden space marines which i would really hate.
Oh i forgot the deathwing kights also get:
Once per battle, this unit can attempt to Deny the Witch as if it were a Psyker. If the model attempting to manifest the psychic power is a Chaos Psyker, you can re-roll that Deny the Witch test.
and:
Each time a Morale test is taken for this unit, it is automatically passed.
stratigo wrote: Proliferation of grav armor ate the niche of custodes at being better marines pretty hard
So give custodes more special abilities to distinguish them from Marines an hammer home the point of them being martial paragons. That's the only serious option in my opinion
You can't inflate the profile stats of custodes more except for maybe wounds and attacks. If you make them S6 base, or even worse T6 base, it would be too much obviously.
Now I'm not saying you think custodes should be T6 base, but my point is that you can't really go another direction than to give them more special abilities....and buff their weapons of course to be on par with marines.
I totaly agree Custodes need to be way better than marines model per model.
Oh i forgot the deathwing kights also get:
Once per battle, this unit can attempt to Deny the Witch as if it were a Psyker. If the model attempting to manifest the psychic power is a Chaos Psyker, you can re-roll that Deny the Witch test.
and:
Each time a Morale test is taken for this unit, it is automatically passed.
Deathwing knights are stupid right now and everyone agrees that they are dumb. Free transhuman on top of everything else is not ok.
I would be Very surprised if the current inner circle rule will also be in the 9th ed dark angels codex. If it remains, gw better throw us a bone...
I would really love it if we were granted some form of special detachment for a sort of low cost Grey Knight option. We need psykers/chaplains....badly. We could easily create the lore around Emperor blessings or "boons" that manifest in the start of battles. Give a unit an attack twice thing, or +1 to wound blessing direct from big daddy.
We need to involve the emperor's will somehow into our force, and it should be through a chaplain/librarian unit.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I would really love it if we were granted some form of special detachment for a sort of low cost Grey Knight option. We need psykers/chaplains....badly. We could easily create the lore around Emperor blessings or "boons" that manifest in the start of battles. Give a unit an attack twice thing, or +1 to wound blessing direct from big daddy.
We need to involve the emperor's will somehow into our force, and it should be through a chaplain/librarian unit.
I mean, we have sisters now for anti-psyker.
My personal take is that Custodes should just have whatever buffs built-in to their datasheets. They fight individually and are the manifestation of the Emperor outside the Palace, they don't need a random dude to inspire them. Acts of heroism, etc are perfectly fine as stratagems.
The Imperial Armor index may give some clues as the what direction Custodes will take, but I'm guessing the codex is far enough away that it will be basically just be the rules we already have give or take. I wouldn't be surprised if this time next year we're talking about the Talons of the Emperor codex previews.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I would really love it if we were granted some form of special detachment for a sort of low cost Grey Knight option. We need psykers/chaplains....badly. We could easily create the lore around Emperor blessings or "boons" that manifest in the start of battles. Give a unit an attack twice thing, or +1 to wound blessing direct from big daddy.
We need to involve the emperor's will somehow into our force, and it should be through a chaplain/librarian unit.
I mean, we have sisters now for anti-psyker.
My personal take is that Custodes should just have whatever buffs built-in to their datasheets. They fight individually and are the manifestation of the Emperor outside the Palace, they don't need a random dude to inspire them. Acts of heroism, etc are perfectly fine as stratagems.
The Imperial Armor index may give some clues as the what direction Custodes will take, but I'm guessing the codex is far enough away that it will be basically just be the rules we already have give or take. I wouldn't be surprised if this time next year we're talking about the Talons of the Emperor codex previews.
I agree. No chaplains or psykers for us, doesn't fit in the slightest. We're not marines
and, just to play devils advocate, do we actaully need a buff at the moment, given how we seem to be doing pretty well so far in 9th (anecdotally)?
however, I agree they need to re-carve our design space and give us back a "niche" that isnt totally shared with marines, as difficult as that may be. they can't really make us much more "elite" without starting to go into literal one man armies, so im not sure where they should take us. one option would be giving us bonus CP as a detachment ability, to let us make more use of the "Individual heroics" stratagems and such.
I think when it becomes time for a new codex (Which will be quite a long while from now) these things I'd like to see.
Make Spears, axes etc assault rather than rapid fire.
Make Missile Launchers 2 shots instead of 1.
Give the hurricane bolters ap-1
Make the 1 damage weapons 2 damage.
As far as toughness goes....I don't know. I'm spitballing here. I know Gravis is eating at our niche. Maybe consider making the terminators t6? Adding 1 wound to the 3 wound dudes? Its just so easy to over buff this army.
iGuy91 wrote: I think when it becomes time for a new codex (Which will be quite a long while from now) these things I'd like to see.
Make Spears, axes etc assault rather than rapid fire.
Make Missile Launchers 2 shots instead of 1.
Give the hurricane bolters ap-1
Make the 1 damage weapons 2 damage.
As far as toughness goes....I don't know. I'm spitballing here. I know Gravis is eating at our niche. Maybe consider making the terminators t6? Adding 1 wound to the 3 wound dudes? Its just so easy to over buff this army.
Can't change Hurricanes because it's a shared profile. It'd need a new name.
That said, we're really strong and sword+board just got buffed. I'd say all we really need are:
Culexus/Sisters range increased to 24" (maybe 30").
Sisters on Jetbikes (okay not really, but I can dream).
+1W on all infantry/Jetbikes units across the board.
1D3 melee changed to flat 2 across the board.
Matching our melee to power weapons (+1S on Sentinel Blades, +2 on spears, axes get -1AP).
xerxeskingofking wrote: and, just to play devils advocate, do we actaully need a buff at the moment, given how we seem to be doing pretty well so far in 9th (anecdotally)?
....
Yes. The new marines are gonna be almost as OP as last years iron hands. 12-18 eradiacators are gonna delete custodes armies in no time.
Just a quick side note, how would you guys approach a necron list with the nightbringer? It feels like that guy can solo half a custodes army.
I kinda like the nightbringer being the best beatstick in the game, since he is the actual grim reaper of 40k, but it seems like he counters us very, very hard.
Tiberias wrote: Just a quick side note, how would you guys approach a necron list with the nightbringer? It feels like that guy can solo half a custodes army.
I kinda like the nightbringer being the best beatstick in the game, since he is the actual grim reaper of 40k, but it seems like he counters us very, very hard.
I have no idea beyond playing keep away from him, weakening him with shooting, and trying to charge to finish him off. That, or using a small squad of 3 guard to beat 3 wounds off him as a sacrifice to try and weaken him faster.
1. Sisters get moved to Troops and get obsec
2. Terminators get some sort of damage reduction strat. Anything 1-3 is reduced to 1. etc. I feel giving them a buff to Toughness is actually feasible. They should be roughly as tough as a jet bike...
3. Speaking of jetbikes, make them T7.
4. Make guardians 40ppm base, make spears 2 and sword 0 shield 5.
5. Make the Miser free
1. Sisters get moved to Troops and get obsec
2. Terminators get some sort of damage reduction strat. Anything 1-3 is reduced to 1. etc. I feel giving them a buff to Toughness is actually feasible. They should be roughly as tough as a jet bike...
3. Speaking of jetbikes, make them T7.
4. Make guardians 40ppm base, make spears 2 and sword 0 shield 5.
5. Make the Miser free
9. New Redemptor options?
1) Not going to happen, espically with SM scouts moving over into Elites out of troops. Clearly, they feel that troops should be the core building blocks of a army and that anything not part of that core should be specialist/elite option. sisters are not our core, guardian squads are.
2) & 3): the strats i can see, but im doubtful about stat increases, if only becuase they would have to come with significant points increases.
4) thats a significant cut in costs. you think they'd go for that?
5) i doubt free, but they may make it cheaper.
6) you mean access to all the SM dread arm-weapons like the lascannon, plasma cannon, volkite baster etc? possible but unlikely, unless they let it in via FW index which i honestly doubt.
Make Spears, axes etc assault rather than rapid fire.
to again play devils advocate, we already HAVE assault type spear options, via FW. I must note that they dont seem that popular.
Matching our melee to power weapons (+1S on Sentinel Blades, +2 on spears, axes get -1AP).
Jetbikes going to T7 is a bit much don't you think?
How about this, in addition to the weapon changes I proposed:
Guard gets another wound and maybe another attack.
Terminators get another wound and attack.
Our whole army gets a 6+ feelnopain, wardens get a 5+ feelnopain.
Our whole army gets a 5+ shrug against mortal wounds in psychic.
I'd personally like to give our guard units some special abilities to make them more interesting and hammer home the point of our guys being melee specialists. For example:
"as long as this unit still contains at least two custodian guard equipped with storm shield in the fight phase, enemy units have to subtract 1 from their hit roll when targeting this unit"
This could represent the enemy running into a shield wall and having a harder time hitting our guys. It would help against lots of attacks, and would do nothing against thunder hammers for example because of the -1 cap...so it would not punish other elite units with high value attacks too much.
And
"as long as this unit still contains at least two custodian guard equipped with guardian spears in the fight phase, if this unit was charged by an enemy unit, roll a d6 for every enemy model eligible to fight in this fight phase. On a 6+ the enemy unit suffers one mortal wound."
I'd give them a strat to buff this to do mortal wounds on a 5+. I think charging our spear guys should come with some risk. Running head on into golden demigods of War, holding massive spears shouldn't come without risk.
You could do similar things for wardens and terminators. Things like these distinguish would help to distinguish us once more as THE elite faction I believe.
I'm not saying my suggestions are the be all end all solution, but my point is, there is SO much they could do.
So I think a big problem with our faction is that we suffer from what I like to call "Captain Marvel/Superman" problems. How do you show how powerful Superman is without completely invalidating everyone else in the established fluff?
If 1 Custode in fluff is supposed to be the literally perfect warrior, how to you rep that numerically and not break the game or make SM's worthless? You can't.
Which is why we don't base our rules off what fluff says we should be able to do. If you give our entire army S7 spears and D6 axes, on top of a 1+/3++6+++ you might as well just not play anything else.
The only option I can see is us giving up something to get something. Give up the Army wide 5++ or the Psykic 6+++, and maybe get something. I dunno, but right now we are still damn good, and you can't buff us reasonably anymore, and keep costs managable. I mean our troop tax alone is an entire battalion for some armies. You start raising those numbers, and we start losing matches....
Can't lose the army wide 5++ that goes to a 4++, we need that more than any other army in the game.
Also like I said, you don't need to inflate our stats to distinguish us from marines, I even gave some suggestions. And while those might not be the best ideas, since I'm not a game designer, you get my point. There is a lot you can do.
To be fair, one thing that already sets us apart now is that we are the only army in the game that still gets a 3++ on their stormshields (and we ignore AP -2 in cover with them, which is also nice).
I hope they keep that in our new codex.
Edit: another thing that needs attention is Trajann Valoris. His axe should have always been flat 3 dmg, but I'd go as far as making it flat 4dmg. He's our biggest, baddest dude and right now he's laughable in combat.
I don't think 5 attacks at S10 AP3 d3 damage (Rerolling all misses and wounds) is "Laughable" but oh well. He's not Ragnar or Thrakka, but then he doesn't need to be. He's a buff bot that can act like a beat stick if needed. With the new CORE rules, I doubt he'll be a mainstay of any lists now, as our tanks aren't core. If you want to use him like Trakka then yeah, he'll need better damage. Flat 4 sounds nice but I seriously doubt it'll happen.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I don't think 5 attacks at S10 AP3 d3 damage (Rerolling all misses and wounds) is "Laughable" but oh well. He's not Ragnar or Thrakka, but then he doesn't need to be. He's a buff bot that can act like a beat stick if needed. With the new CORE rules, I doubt he'll be a mainstay of any lists now, as our tanks aren't core. If you want to use him like Trakka then yeah, he'll need better damage. Flat 4 sounds nice but I seriously doubt it'll happen.
Unfortunately he is, especially for his cost. He is outfought by ragnar by on every day of the week and ragnar is considerably cheaper. Look, we are at a stage in the game where a unit with 3wounds T5, 2+, 4++ and 6+++ (wardens) is considered not tough enough to compete. 5 attacks at S10 AP3 and D D3 should be great, but it just isn't nowadays. I dislike this trend as much as the next person, but here we are.....that's one of the many issues with constant power creep.
Edit: and he shouldn't fething be a buffbot, but this hopefully won't be possible anymore once our codex drops. I always hated it that the best strategic use for characters like trajann or abaddon for example, was to let them sit back and buff some stuff.
Audustum wrote: The easiest, if not the best fix, for Trajann is to just let him use all 3 Moment Shackle abilities each battle instead of just one.
Wardens are our most meh unit and need a redesign. They're out-classed by every other infantry and are poor generalists.
That would be neat, but flat 3 dmg on his axe minimum is also required once he can't give his aura to a telemon or caladius anymore.....well assuming the telemon and caladius will not be CORE which I think is to be expected.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Just an idea, move Wardens to Troop slot and allow them to take some form of ranged weapon? Such as the Aquillon weapons?
Call me crazy but what about painting the new Land Speeders gold and calling them Venerable Land Speeders? Heavy Melta Support in a pinch!
Ok, but what would wardens then do better than our standard guard or sagittarum? The stormshields on our normal guard are too good to pass up and if you were to make wardens good at shooting, you run a risk of completely invalidating saggitarum guard as a unit, which would be bad also.
No, wardens need their own niche. Keep them in elite and either give them a 5+++ and/or give the unit the ability to deny psychic powers, essentially baking the strat into their profile. That way they would have more specific purpose.
The new landspeeders do not have nearly enough eagle iconography on them to be usable for us Our own variant of a landspeeder would be cool though.
One thing is for certain tough, once our new codex drops....whenever that is going to be, I seriously hope that GW manages to give valerian and aleya some useful rules for once. It's kinda hilarious and sad at the same time how much they botched these characters ingame.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Just an idea, move Wardens to Troop slot and allow them to take some form of ranged weapon? Such as the Aquillon weapons?
Call me crazy but what about painting the new Land Speeders gold and calling them Venerable Land Speeders? Heavy Melta Support in a pinch!
Ok, but what would wardens then do better than our standard guard or sagittarum? The stormshields on our normal guard are too good to pass up and if you were to make wardens good at shooting, you run a risk of completely invalidating saggitarum guard as a unit, which would be bad also.
No, wardens need their own niche. Keep them in elite and either give them a 5+++ and/or give the unit the ability to deny psychic powers, essentially baking the strat into their profile. That way they would have more specific purpose.
The new landspeeders do not have nearly enough eagle iconography on them to be usable for us Our own variant of a landspeeder would be cool though.
One thing is for certain tough, once our new codex drops....whenever that is going to be, I seriously hope that GW manages to give valerian and aleya some useful rules for once. It's kinda hilarious and sad at the same time how much they botched these characters ingame.
Aleya is really useful for getting access to the Sisters denial strat and aura on a model with character protection (and can thus potentially get close enough to use them without dying). The Valerian tax for her is just too high.
Ok, but Giant golden Land speeders of Melty Goodness with a 5++ and a 6+++?
Also, we literally don't need Wardens right now. They are more costly than basic troops but crappier than terminators (their closest counterpart). We need to make "Warden" a thing that you can assign to a model/unit before hand. Basically make them have a 6+++ for 2cp.
Otherwise, there is no real reason to have another foot slogging heavy elite infantry unit. It's already half our army. No, we need some form of T8/9 shooting that doesn't come from a tank. Some form of venerable Devastator squad.
Honestly the entire army should have Transhuman across the line and weapons a flat 2 at the very least
I will say not having another phase of damage really hurts as the increase the range of models across armies that can ghaz/void dragon our damage to nothing.
There are only a handful of armies that can reliably do the kind of damage you’re asking for across 3+ phases, and those that do pay exorbitantly for those options.
C’Tans in their current form are a balancing nightmare, and asking for the means to one-turn them is asking to open up a lethality arms race the likes of which this game hasn’t seen. You don’t want to go down that road.
I get the part about ghazghkull and the c'tan, especially the nightbringer, but I'm generally ok with there being some models in the game that just counter us very well, as long as they are rather rare. Like sterling said, how do you give us the means to down a ctan in one turn without making us over the top?
Coming back to wardens though, I agree with the general consensus that they don't really have a place in any custodes list right now, but I would not go as far as to make a strat to assign any unit the "warden" status. Simply because we actually have dedicated warden models (which are actually quite cool looking) and I think they deserve to get a rules update to be able to stand on their own as a unit. Just giving them a 5+++ would make them at least interesting...well in my opinion at least.
I dunno, I would like to see more utility thrown to the Wardens, because of the rule of cool, but at the same time, they are, at the end of the day, slightly better Guadians, or slightly worse Terminators. I don't see the point of them, like at all. What do they do well? Terms are better in Melee, Guardians with s/s are better at obj camping, bikes are better at hordes and charging. They are Crappier Terminators that need a lot of CP to even approach useful. They're single best thing is they can be taken in groups of 10, which if you are literally doing that in Custodes, then why?
I say give Wardens some sort of alternate weapon spru that either (Breaks Invulns in melee- Make them really good character killers) or let them take some form of anti-horde weapon. Either Melee or Ranged, like Lightning claws or Assault 3 s5/6 shooty bits. Like, I dunno, an assault HB? It would go a long way to sealing up a big weakness for us (Hordes) and making them slightly less worthless.
Audustum wrote: 5+++ isn't really enough. If we want to go the FnP route
What else would it take in your opinion?
So I previously proposed to change castellan axes to this profile:
Castellan Axe:
S: +3; AP: -2; D: 2
Abilities (on allarus termis only): In a turn in which the bearer has successfully charged, change the weapon profile to the following for the fight phase: S: x2; AP: -2; D: D3+1
How about you make that special ability on the charge unit specific. Say allarus termis get the above ability on the charge to up their dmg on the axes since they are the heavy hitters and wardens get a profile that lets them deal with hordes better like this:
Castellan Axe:
S: +3; AP: -2; D: 2
Abilities (on wardens only): In a turn in which the bearer has successfully charged, this weapon gains the following ability: excess damage from this weapon is not lost, instead keep allocating damage to another model until all damage has been allocated or the target has been destroyed. So basically on the charge it becomes a deathwing knight flail.
This would distinguish allarus as the high damage dealers and wardens as horde clearers. Would that be enough to give them a purpose in a custodes list nowadays....maybe?
Audustum wrote: 5+++ isn't really enough. If we want to go the FnP route
What else would it take in your opinion?
So I previously proposed to change castellan axes to this profile:
Castellan Axe:
S: +3; AP: -2; D: 2
Abilities (on allarus termis only): In a turn in which the bearer has successfully charged, change the weapon profile to the following for the fight phase: S: x2; AP: -2; D: D3+1
How about you make that special ability on the charge unit specific. Say allarus termis get the above ability on the charge to up their dmg on the axes since they are the heavy hitters and wardens get a profile that lets them deal with hordes better like this:
Castellan Axe:
S: +3; AP: -2; D: 2
Abilities (on wardens only): In a turn in which the bearer has successfully charged, this weapon gains the following ability: excess damage from this weapon is not lost, instead keep allocating damage to another model until all damage has been allocated or the target has been destroyed. So basically on the charge it becomes a deathwing knight flail.
This would distinguish allarus as the high damage dealers and wardens as horde clearers. Would that be enough to give them a purpose in a custodes list nowadays....maybe?
Sorry, typing on the go. Meant it should be a 4+++ if going that route.
I don't see the infatuation with creating multiple profiles for our weapons. This leads us to game table debates as to how many attacks get rolled. Say you have a squad of 6 Wardens with axes. 3 go Reaping swing, and 3 go heavy chop. Which attacks get resolved first? Who gets to choose the Targets? There are too many variables.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I don't see the infatuation with creating multiple profiles for our weapons. This leads us to game table debates as to how many attacks get rolled. Say you have a squad of 6 Wardens with axes. 3 go Reaping swing, and 3 go heavy chop. Which attacks get resolved first? Who gets to choose the Targets? There are too many variables.
There's literally zero debate about this. 9ths sequencing rules are quite clear.
Sorry, typing on the go. Meant it should be a 4+++ if going that route.
You want a 2+/4++/4+++?
Be prepared for Wardens to be 100+ points apiece then.
They'd be overcosted in that case.
If you just make them more durable in the traditional sense (like ignoring AP or better invuln) then they're treading on the design space of terminators. If you give them a hefty FnP, however, they get a bit unique. I'd say make them a 6++/4+++ (thus 5++/4+++ with the detachment bonus). Terminators are strong against multi-damage weapons with weak AP (like autocannons) because of their stratagem. Sword+Board are strong against low-volume, high damage weapons (because of the 3++). High FnP Wardens would be strong against high-volume, multi-damage attacks but weak(er) to low-volume ones and strong against MW's. It gives them a unique design space in terms of durability.
With all the gravis marines, do we think the flat 3 FW weapons have a place? My gut says no, it's overcosted and you get more efficiency out of the stuff with D2 weapons and if marines are rocking an apothecary 3 wounds gives a 50% chance to save one of them, which hugely invalidates the 3 dmg. I'm personally leaning towards taking triple telemon (with accelerator cannons) to spew out damage and be durable enough to have a hope of surviving the eradicators.
greyknight12 wrote: With all the gravis marines, do we think the flat 3 FW weapons have a place? My gut says no, it's overcosted and you get more efficiency out of the stuff with D2 weapons and if marines are rocking an apothecary 3 wounds gives a 50% chance to save one of them, which hugely invalidates the 3 dmg. I'm personally leaning towards taking triple telemon (with accelerator cannons) to spew out damage and be durable enough to have a hope of surviving the eradicators.
Nice that someone still wants to talk tactics in the Tactica thread. I think considering the factors you've mentioned, as well as the price difference and the T5 breakpoint of Gravis, it probably is the way to go. If you do go Storm cannons on the other hand, you might get better results by firing the first storm cannon, then the Spiculus, then the other cannon.
I think triple Pallas might be a good route too, vs a storm cannon Telemon you get 50 percent more dmg 3 shots for only slightly more points. Only got 2 myself but gonna try em against Marines this weekend
greyknight12 wrote: With all the gravis marines, do we think the flat 3 FW weapons have a place? My gut says no, it's overcosted and you get more efficiency out of the stuff with D2 weapons and if marines are rocking an apothecary 3 wounds gives a 50% chance to save one of them, which hugely invalidates the 3 dmg. I'm personally leaning towards taking triple telemon (with accelerator cannons) to spew out damage and be durable enough to have a hope of surviving the eradicators.
The time has come that we get flat 3D weapons. They should have been from the start. Custodes are supposed to be the melee experts in all of the Imperium. Our melee was never better then our shooting most of the time it was worse.
Eradicators are going to kill 3 telemons pretty fast.
6 Eradicators with heavy metla rifes and 2 multi meltas will do 21 dmg to a T8 5++ target when in half range.
If they get in to 12" to a Telemon they will do 13.3 dmg to it.
If you use grim resolve(S:-1 ) and ancient artefice(D:-1) the will do 7.4 and then they will just shoot the two other Telemons to death in the same turn.
If the Eradicators stay the same will delete Custodes pretty hard. We might have to go back to use a lot of 3++ models
Sterling if I didn't know better I'd say you literally wait until I post and pop up. You are like a windows 95 paperclip helper, but your only help is to point out how I'm wrong. Not saying you are wrong, but it's hilarious that it's basically every time. Do you know me personally? Because it seems personal.
Secondly. I still say dynamic melee "abilities" would be broken. These aren't even abilities, they are something that doesn't exist. Weapon profiles that dynamically change the attack profile You get 5 attacks, but if they all go reaping you get 3 for each attack, so 15? Add in exploding 6s, maybe 20? Yeah, 20 S8 attacks at AP2 D3? Suddenly we've gone to plaid on a 70 point model? Don't even want to know why you think that's a good idea.
Yeah, no. A model that simply by virtue of showing up can shrug off 92% of AP0 fire and 75% of AP2+ fire (and this isnt taking into account hitting and wounding) is ungodly durable.
Yeah, no. A model that simply by virtue of showing up can shrug off 92% of AP0 fire and 75% of AP2+ fire (and this isnt taking into account hitting and wounding) is ungodly durable.
I think you're focusing a bit on the wrong aspect? That said, your numbers ignore that the protective swing isn't that large cause they're already durable.
120 hurricane Bolter shots (standard Jetbike list) goes from doing 5 wounds to Wardens to...3? 3.5? It's not a huge change. They're already strong against volume AP zip 1 damage. Mass AP1 will be similar. Why? Cause the armor save and hit/wound do more than 6+++ to 4+++ is.
6+++ to 4+++ makes the bigger difference against stuff like Leviathan Butcher Cannons (swing of 12.9 to 7.7 I believe). A 5+++ would be like 10.2.
Does anyone have any personal practical evidence of Custodes being deleted by SM lists in the 2k Realm, not conquest or 500pt games. 2k matches. Are we really losing droves of units to SM lists, or is the sky not really falling?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Does anyone have any personal practical evidence of Custodes being deleted by SM lists in the 2k Realm, not conquest or 500pt games. 2k matches. Are we really losing droves of units to SM lists, or is the sky not really falling?
I haven't fought the new, new Codex, but last time I went against a bleeding edge hard White Scar list, it was basically a tie and I was not being deleted off the map.
I think you're focusing a bit on the wrong aspect? That said, your numbers ignore that the protective swing isn't that large cause they're already durable.
120 hurricane Bolter shots (standard Jetbike list) goes from doing 5 wounds to Wardens to...3? 3.5? It's not a huge change. They're already strong against volume AP zip 1 damage. Mass AP1 will be similar. Why? Cause the armor save and hit/wound do more than 6+++ to 4+++ is.
6+++ to 4+++ makes the bigger difference against stuff like Leviathan Butcher Cannons (swing of 12.9 to 7.7 I believe). A 5+++ would be like 10.2.
You're asking for a defensive statline that's better than Mortarion's, then kvetching that it's not good enough. That's insanity.
I honestly don't get how people's instant reaction is "Buff the durability of Custodes" as if that somehow even remotely addresses the problem. Eradicators and Melta weaponry in general took a MASSIVE pendulum swing into knocking down big targets. This will pass, it will not remain the standard. IH got nerfed in time, Castellans got nerfed. Hell, even Agressors got nerfed into basically not worth the points now. We will survive this. We are currently still one of the top factions with the toughest Dread in the game, and the strongest Heavy Flyer. We have a baseline 2+4++ across most of our units, and we have ingrained psychic defense that other factions can only dream of.
I can't believe I am the one saying this, but everyone chill out. We are still doing great. We don't need any massive game altering buffs because of one broken unit.
That all being said if FW:Index turns our Aquillons into giant dog turds I'll still wanna cut the rules director in half with a ninja sword.
Aquilons are simple. +1 wound with no points change. Firepikes become a free swap with the bolters. Claws give +1 attack.
Anything other than that is a fail. There is no reason for them to cost 10 points more than allarus/w axe's in their bolter/fist layout. +2 strength and -1 ap isnt worth 10 points and reduced stratagem support.
Giving them +1 wound covers their larger size over allarus and the fact that they cant take as many per unit.
Eihnlazer wrote: Aquilons are simple. +1 wound with no points change. Firepikes become a free swap with the bolters. Claws give +1 attack.
Anything other than that is a fail. There is no reason for them to cost 10 points more than allarus/w axe's in their bolter/fist layout. +2 strength and -1 ap isnt worth 10 points and reduced stratagem support.
Giving them +1 wound covers their larger size over allarus and the fact that they cant take as many per unit.
So the new buff with lightning claws that I saw is that they count as two seperate weapons, so it's actually +2 attacks....Still, who takes claws when you have fists?
In unrelated-to-anything-previously-discussed news, my codex: custodes and first box of custodes guard have finally turned up (I ordered them online on the 3rd of this month. thats the last time I do that for a while.....). once I have them painted and assembled, I will add pics to my gallery to be ridiculed admired.
on the topic of new edition wishlisting, what i would like would be a second troops option. we have spear guard, and sword/board guard... and thats about it. even with the FW stuff, we are still looking at 3 types of spear guard, sword guard, and the bolt caster guard, all of which are just flavours of the same frigging plastic kit. i'd like some more variety in our troops. not sure what we could have, lore-wise. the only thing i can think of is guardsmen form the imperial palace garrison, but i could never see that happening, what with it giving us cheap chaff units.
I think you're focusing a bit on the wrong aspect? That said, your numbers ignore that the protective swing isn't that large cause they're already durable.
120 hurricane Bolter shots (standard Jetbike list) goes from doing 5 wounds to Wardens to...3? 3.5? It's not a huge change. They're already strong against volume AP zip 1 damage. Mass AP1 will be similar. Why? Cause the armor save and hit/wound do more than 6+++ to 4+++ is.
6+++ to 4+++ makes the bigger difference against stuff like Leviathan Butcher Cannons (swing of 12.9 to 7.7 I believe). A 5+++ would be like 10.2.
You're asking for a defensive statline that's better than Mortarion's, then kvetching that it's not good enough. That's insanity.
I'd say it's not better than Mortarion's. T7 is a huge improvement over T5. High T is still one of the best ways to protect a model in the game I believe, followed by invulnerable save and preceded by CHARACTER rule protection.
That said, blame GW if you want for too much lethality. Mortarion isn't very tough and there's a reason we don't see too much of him: he dies too fast. Even with the caveat that he ALSO usually gives himself -1 to be Hit.
As a note, however, I wasn't 'asking' for anything. I simply said that if you're going the route of improving the FnP on Wardens to make them viable, it probably needs to be 4+++ rather than 5+++ before they'd be competitive. I do stand by that analysis.
Giving wardens a 5+++ makes them more durable than Mortarian. Durability is different than ability to wound. For instance run the math of two squads of 3w T5 Wardens (Or 18 wounds total)with a 2+/4++/5+++ vs Mortarian at T7 18W with a 3+/4++/6+++ against a squad of 4 Vertus Praetors. Each get shot in RF range so 48 shots of S4 AP0 D1. Mortarian would take about 3.7 wounds unsaved. The Wardens would take about 1.4. You have better defense than Mortarian against baseline shooting.
xerxeskingofking wrote: and, just to play devils advocate, do we actaully need a buff at the moment, given how we seem to be doing pretty well so far in 9th (anecdotally)?
however, I agree they need to re-carve our design space and give us back a "niche" that isnt totally shared with marines, as difficult as that may be. they can't really make us much more "elite" without starting to go into literal one man armies, so im not sure where they should take us. one option would be giving us bonus CP as a detachment ability, to let us make more use of the "Individual heroics" stratagems and such.
In the context of 9th as it stands right this second with but 2 codexes out? No, not really.
In the congtext of a 9th that has had 4 or 5 or more codexes out plus a bunch of supplements? Almost certainly. GW rarely makes armies WORSE in their codexes.
Space marines got a lot worse with their codex. The introduction of <CORE> and the nerfs to Chapter Masters and Aggressors (on top of the earlier nerfs to Centurions) means that suddenly horde armies are looking significantly more viable. Especially plaguebearers and daemons in general.
Obviously Custodes have excellent tools for mowing down horde and elite alike. They are in great shape right now.
artific3r wrote: Space marines got a lot worse with their codex. The introduction of <CORE> and the nerfs to Chapter Masters and Aggressors (on top of the earlier nerfs to Centurions) means that suddenly horde armies are looking significantly more viable. Especially plaguebearers and daemons in general.
Obviously Custodes have excellent tools for mowing down horde and elite alike. They are in great shape right now.
I disagree, almost all the marine units that where strong in 9th before the new codex are core even dreads which got buffed(-1D).
Transhuman is 1CP now for units of 5.
Apothecary can bring models back to life for 0CP
Eradiacators are ridiculously OP now
Deathwing is totally broken OP.
Until we see the first born chapter dexs, we can't declare SM nerfed. As we saw with Deathwing, the specialist groups are STILL incredibly deadly. I have a bad feeling about CSM getting two wound marines, then TSs will really eat our lunch....
Had a tag team game this weekend against newcrons and orks. Played with a buddy of mine who just started admech. Every player brought 1000p.
Ork player brought ghazghkull and necron player brought the nightbringer. Was a total slaughter, admech player didn't have a very optimized list cause he just started and I couldn't do gak against both ghazghkull and the nightbringer.
Now such a game is not representative in any competitive or tournament setting of course and I think if you face just either the nightbringer or ghazghkul, you can try to play the mission, slow them down or force tough choices on them. Having both those guys against you is bs though.
The nightbringer is really freaking good against us as expected. Was a bit pissed and disappointed in my buddies honestly that they brought such cheese against me and a buddy who just startet out, cause it wasn't that much fun to play. They had a comfortable >50 point lead in the end and I had no models left by turn 4.
Anyway my main point is that while the nightbringer is really rather good against us, in a pure newcrons vs custodes match I think it's possible to outplay him.
Any of the C'tans is a nightmare for custodes as we dont have a psychic phase to damage them, and they can laugh at us in the fight phase too.
You cant kill the model in only the shooting phase, and they can spit out so many mortal wounds we cant afford to let him live more than 2 turns.
I think its great they increased the C'tans durability cause they were a joke before, but completely ignoring Invuns is just a bit too much for us. Should have been -1 to the save roll just like our lockwarden WL trait imo.
That could make sense. I'd imagine that wherever the Custodes go they'd have a pretty solid entourage as well. And that'd include a psyker or two for sure.
cody.d. wrote: That could make sense. I'd imagine that wherever the Custodes go they'd have a pretty solid entourage as well. And that'd include a psyker or two for sure.
Ive seen fluff in the codex that says the custodes deliberately exclude psykers because they are too much of a security risk, too unreliable. I doubt that will change, given that we have a lore friendly selection of anti psyker tricks, and that lacking psykers is basically a intentional weakness for us
I dont want psykers, but they really need to fix some of our useless stuff to help with mortal wounds.
currently, nobody will ever take the relic banner's, cause they suck extremely. Why not redo them?
The one banner that was interesting was the one that dealt out mortal wounds to everyone in range, but you had to give up your -1 to hit aura and it still hit your own guys.
If your gonna make us give up our actual buff, why are we dealing damage to our own people? It should have been something like this:
Icon of the Blazing sun- The wielder must replace their Vexilla but can deny one power per turn from any visible psyker with +1 to the attempt. If they fail to deny the power they suffer 1 mortal wound. Additionally, at the start of the psychic phase, all Daemons within 12" suffer -1 to hit in both the shooting and assault phase.
Vexilla of Imperial Majesty- This relic vexilla adds the following ability to its normal ability: Any model within 6" that rolls a wound roll of unmodified 6 do maximum damage on thier damage roll.
My problem with that solution is that our entire faction is literally cut out of certain missions because we can't score on psker requirements. I want a unit that can cast spells and use Psker actions that doesn't force me to soup. Even if it's just our own special little lore break of fluff. I don't care. Nothing in this game matches the fluff, or Cherubiel(sp? the one Eisenhorne used to kamehameha a WARLORD TITAN) would be a S20 30W 20A model with AP5 D10 attacks. And every Custode would be S10 base. Fluff arguments go out the wind when the table top is concerned. We badly need some form of Psyker unit that is attachable to a Pure Custodes element without breaking the rules.
6+ fnp is useless on our expensive models. If your rolling 6s you be wrecking harder on an army with more dice anyway. I chose custodes because I roll 2s.
We spend cp to deny and can fail that or get a 50% chance to stop a power. I'm glad we have something but its not enough.
iGuy91 wrote: Ehhh - With war of the spider, and the new psyker mechanics, I think we generally can hold our own against all but the nastiest of psychic barrages.
In my recent game vs GK, i think i might have taken 2-3 mortal wounds all game between decent rolling on the FNP, and using the deny strats.
I might chalk that up to your opponent not being good at GK. I faced a TS player last week and had around 5 smites per turn to either deflect or FNP, and I ended up eating most of those wounds. A 6+ FNP is useless on mass, and a once per turn deny strat might as well be farting into a hurricane. I'm much more focused on denying the big stuff like Warp Time than smites. Warp time can pack my lunch in, smite just obliterates 1 or 2 models. Either way, I was still eating 6-10 mortals per phase which was enough to bounce my bike captain and my squad of 3x Wallaruses. It's still a ton of unstoppable wounds and there is only 1 deny per turn.
We need a psyker unit that can deny and cast. Inquisitors are worthless, and my best and only idea is to make Aleya a stand alone character and give her some form of Deny once per turn. and make it good. It would be incredibly easy to manifest in the fluff. "Once per turn Aleya is infused with the will of the God Emperor of Mankind and can dispel any foul warp emanation" Once per turn Aleya can Deny a Psychic action within 18 inches, no roll.
There is a deny with a +1 warlord trait (impregnable mind)
There is a 12" regular deny stratagem (Spark of divinity, 1 cp)
There is a deny targeted abilities on a 4+ stratagem for 1 CP There is a 3+ deny stratagem for 1 CP for sisters of silence
Also, sisters can't be affected by psychic powers and give a -1 to cast per unit within 18" of the psyker (up to -4)
You can also take a culexus assassin or psychic inquisitor and still be "pure" for detachment purposes
Not including the Vexilla upgrade since we all know it's trash
You can totally tech for psykers with custodes, it's just that no one does it. Fluffwise the whole point of the Talons combo (heresy and beyond) was so Custodes had psychic defense.
Practically speaking though, I'd say a good start would be spending the CP for an extra warlord trait on a character for the deny. And if you're regularly facing smite barrages, a single sister unit would be useful OR you could really bite the bullet and take a single culexus plus Valerian/Aleya, which would give a net -3 to cast 18" bubble around the assassin and Aleya while benefiting from character protection.
Nobody takes that because its useless against anything else. List tailoring isn't a thing at tournaments, and its hard to justify taking 33% army comp to protect against your weakness when it makes you loose against other armies.
Eihnlazer wrote: Nobody takes that because its useless against anything else. List tailoring isn't a thing at tournaments, and its hard to justify taking 33% army comp to protect against your weakness when it makes you loose against other armies.
The Inquisitor is 60 points, consumes no FoC slots and when kitted appropriately has hilarious debuffing / disruptor spells. A single Prosecutor squad is equally cheap. If blocking in 120 of 2000 points for enhanced Psyker defense is losing you games, then I genuinely dont know what to tell you.
If you play in a psyker heavy meta and are fishing for defense (as opposed to opting for Abhor the Witch and hoping the "easy" VPs are enough to counterbalance the possible thrashing from aggressive space wizards), there are multiple viable options available to Custodes above and beyond the baked in FnP.
Sterling191 wrote: Aleya / SoS teeing up an Alpha Malleus Psyker Inquisitor packing three Denys is hardly worthless.
No one should use that combo ever.
1. You lose at minimum 200 points for bringing the worst 2 person unit in the game.
2. She is a S4 melee attacker with a worthless grenade that only wounds on a 6+ and 4 ap3 d3 attacks. 4 wounds and a 3+ armor save. Shiver my timbers and clutch the pearls.
3. She's a commemorative gimmick model to sell books and editions. Just like Raine, Ripper, Jackson, and Marbo. No one will actually ever use them seriously, as they are worthlessly statted. Marbo is the only one who's remotely worth taking, and he is only slightly worthless for the cost.
3. There are several top players who are using sisters combos, but the Sisters and Golden boys have yet to actually take a major event. Even the new Ares lists are worthless now in 9th: Age of Eradication.
4. If they gave the sisters Rhino the same deny ability as the SoB rhino, I would use them in a heartbeat.
3. There are several top players who are using sisters combos, but the Sisters and Golden boys have yet to actually take a major event. Even the new Ares lists are worthless now in 9th: Age of Eradication.
So it's Eradicators fault that Custodians have problems with Psykers? That makes sense.
4. If they gave the sisters Rhino the same deny ability as the SoB rhino, I would use them in a heartbeat.
You realize the Sororitas Rhino deny is a 1d6 right? And that (even in this pipe-dream where Custodians get magic anti-magic boxes) you have no way to ever push it to a level that will actually deny a must-stop spell?
artific3r wrote: Space marines got a lot worse with their codex. The introduction of <CORE> and the nerfs to Chapter Masters and Aggressors (on top of the earlier nerfs to Centurions) means that suddenly horde armies are looking significantly more viable. Especially plaguebearers and daemons in general.
Obviously Custodes have excellent tools for mowing down horde and elite alike. They are in great shape right now.
No they didn't. Space marines merely require more thought. They are pretty much on the level they were before the codex.
artific3r wrote: Space marines got a lot worse with their codex. The introduction of <CORE> and the nerfs to Chapter Masters and Aggressors (on top of the earlier nerfs to Centurions) means that suddenly horde armies are looking significantly more viable. Especially plaguebearers and daemons in general.
Obviously Custodes have excellent tools for mowing down horde and elite alike. They are in great shape right now.
No. It LOOKED like they got nerfed for about brief second. Then you realize they got power UP. Just change on what's broken. But that's the usual for GW. Got to make people buy new models. So marine codex only got nerf IF you stick with SAME MODELS. If you adapt and replace your army composition your power level GOES UP.
I still don't understand how people are viewing Marines as "nerfed" it's like they aren't playing the same game. Marines are easily the top tier faction bar none in 9th. No granted no one has codex's yet, but for all the non-codex (9th) factions out there, they just don't have the options to effectively deal with Mass Gravis and the new Indomitus stuff. I really hope they don't over compensate in the shift and suddenly Tau Fire warriors become WS2+ or something dumb.
artific3r wrote: Space marines got a lot worse with their codex. The introduction of <CORE> and the nerfs to Chapter Masters and Aggressors (on top of the earlier nerfs to Centurions) means that suddenly horde armies are looking significantly more viable. Especially plaguebearers and daemons in general.
Obviously Custodes have excellent tools for mowing down horde and elite alike. They are in great shape right now.
No. It LOOKED like they got nerfed for about brief second. Then you realize they got power UP. Just change on what's broken. But that's the usual for GW. Got to make people buy new models. So marine codex only got nerf IF you stick with SAME MODELS. If you adapt and replace your army composition your power level GOES UP.
Having flipped through the Space Marine Codex, I have to disagree a bit. I think they were overall nerfed, but only very slightly, which is O.K. because they weren't that bad to begin with. TJ Lanigan has defeated them when encountered with his Nurgling spam Death Guard I believe (I haven't heard of any major defeats and he's won a few events, I think he's currently the top player for his faction in ITC too). They failed to take 1st away from a Chaos monster mash list at a GT. Harlequins and Custodes have been running with them too. Now that's all pre-codex but the codex is so new we don't really have results for it yet.
As an side note, Null Zone was hilariously nerfed as it friendly fires now.
They're basically the same as they were, just configured different, and that's O.K. I think what is causing some issues for Custodes is that we all thought, with the new buffs, Terminator spam was really going to work. The answer is that it's decent, but our real power is either still a heavy vehicle shooting list (see the one that placed and is posted earlier in this thread) or jetbike spam. They're stale, but they're still strong. Our new, viable, configuration is third option to spam the heck out of sword+boards and just hold on objectives while not dying till T4ish. Thus racking up a lead that there isn't time to break. It feels not fun, but it's there as a strategy.
Man, an entire Troop army of Sword and Board, each box is $60 for 6, so two squads of 3. That's around 300pts. $360 for an entire army, with a few points left over. That is actually a remarkably cheap army and theoretically viable!
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Man, an entire Troop army of Sword and Board, each box is $60 for 6, so two squads of 3. That's around 300pts. $360 for an entire army, with a few points left over. That is actually a remarkably cheap army and theoretically viable!
Yeah, I would say you would want a battalion with 4-5 squads of 5 (to escape blast and cohesion rules) with two Shield-Captains. You're gonna get bodied if you run into a MW spam list, but otherwise the goal is to just hold 4 objectives until you, eventually, get worn down. Your secondaries probably look something like:
Domination
Raise the Banners (you're planning to camp 4 objectives with tough, obsec bodies anyway)
Grind Them Down/While We Stand, We Fight (depending on how aggro you can be)
You'd be especially strong on maps that are 2 for 5 and 3 for 10 (3 of the 9 maps I believe) since you'd be choking your opponent down to 5 primary for 3-4 rounds while scoring 15's yourself (3 rounds is enough to max you there).
From there you just shut off re-rolls as necessary or use Shadowkeeprs/Arcane Genetic Alchemy to reduce wounding chances. You've got between 60-75 T5 2+/3++ ignore AP-1 (and maybe AP-2) wounds. Maybe squeeze in a flag if you can to give -1 to Hit. Use Slayers of Nightmares to help your S5 swords wound T7+ if something big comes to contest in melee.
. Aegis of The Emperor: Description:Models with the Aegis of the Emperor special rule have a 5+ invulnerable save. In Addition, roll a D6 each time a model with this ability suffers a mortal wound in the Psychic phase. On a 6 that mortal wound is ignored.
. Auramite Halo: Description:Trajann Valoris has a 3+ invulnerable save.
. Eagle's Eye: Description:Improve this model's invulnerable save by 1 (to a maximum of 3+)
. Explodes: Description:If this model is reduced to 0 wounds, roll a D6 before removing it from the battlefield. On a 6, it explodes and each unit within 6" suffers D6 mortal wounds.
. From Golden Light: Descriptionuring deployment, you can set up this model in a Godstrike-pattern teleportarium array instead of placing it on the battlefield. At the end of any of your movement phases this model can teleport into battle - set it up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" away from any enemy models
. Inspirational Fighter: Description:You can re-roll hit rolls of 1 made for friendly ADEPTUS CUSTODES units within 6" of this model.
. Legendary Commander: Description:You can re-roll hit rolls and wound rolls of 1 made for friendly ADEPTUS CUSTODES units within 6" of Trajann Valoris.
. Lockwarden: Description:When resolving an attack made by a CHARACTER model against this Warlord, subtract 1 from the hit roll. When resolving an attack made by this Warlord against an enemy CHARACTER unit, subtract 1 from the saving throw (including invulnerable saves).
. Moment Shackle: Description:Once per battle, if Trajann Valoris is on the battlefield, you can do one of the following: - Regain D3 wounds lost by Trajann Valoris during this phase (you cannot do this during an attack or if Trajann Valoris is slain) - At the end of the Fight phase, pile in and attack with Trajann Valoris an additional time - The next Stratagem you use this phase costs 0 Command Points.
. Reinforced Atomantic Barriers: Description:This model has a 4+ invulnerable save.
. Spiculus Volley: Description:When this model fires Overwatch or is chosen to shoot with, it can shoot with its spiculus bolt launcher twice if it has not moved this turn.
. Storm shield: Description:A model with a storm shield has a 3+ invulnerable save.
. Strategic Mastermind: Description:Whilst this model is on the battlefield, you can roll one D6 for each Command Point you spend to use a Stratagem; on a 5+ that Command Point is refunded. You can only have 1 Command Point refunded per battle round by this ability.
. Unyielding Ancient: Description:Roll a D6 each time this model loses a wound; on a 6 the damage is ignored and the wound is not lost.
. Captain-General Trajann Valoris: M:6"|WS:2+|BS:2+|S:5|T:5|W:7|A:5|Ld:10|Save:2+
. Custodian: M:6"|WS:2+|BS:2+|S:5|T:5|W:3|A:3|Ld:8|Save:2+
. Sagittarum Custodian: M:6"|WS:2+|BS:2+|S:5|T:5|W:3|A:3|Ld:8|Save:2+
. Shield Captain in Allarus Terminator Armor: M:6"|WS:2+|BS:2+|S:5|T:5|W:7|A:5|Ld:9|Save:2+
. Telemon Heavy Dreadnought: M:*|WS:*|BS:*|S:8|T:8|W:14|A:4|Ld:8|Save:2+
. Adrastus Bolt Caliver: Range:|Type:|S:|AP:|D:|Abilities:When you choose this weapon to shoot with, select one or both of the profiles below. If you select both, subtract 1 from hit rolls for attacks made with this weapon.
. Adrastus Bolt Caliver (Bolt Volley): Range:36"|Type:Assault 3|S:5|AP:-1|D:1|Abilities:-
. Adrastus Bolt Caliver(Disintegration beam): Range:15"|Type:Assault 1|S:5|AP:-3|D:3|Abilities:
. Ballistus Grenade Launcher: Range:12"|Type:Assault D3|S:4|AP:-3|D:1|Abilities:Blast
. Castellan Axe (Melee): Range:Melee|Type:Melee|S:+3|AP:-2|D3|Abilities:
. Castellan Axe (Ranged): Range:24"|Type:Rapid Fire 1|S:4|AP:-1|D:2|Abilities:
. Iliastus Accelerator Culverin: Range:48"|Type:Heavy 4|S:7|AP:-3|D:2|Abilities:
. Misericordia: Range:Melee|Type:Melee|S:User|AP:-2|D:1|Abilities:When the model fights, it may make 1 additional attack with this weapon unless using a storm shield
. Sentinel Blade (Melee): Range:Melee|Type:Melee|S:User|AP:-3|D3|Abilities:
. Sentinel Blade (Ranged): Range:12"|Typeistol 2|S:4|AP:0|D:1|Abilities:
. Spiculus Bolt Launcher: Range:24"|Type:Heavy 5|S:5|AP:-1|D:1|Abilities:-
. Watcher's Axe (Melee): Range:Melee|Type:Melee|S:x2|AP:-3|D3|Abilities:
. Watcher's Axe (Shooting): Range:24"|Type:Rapid Fire 1|S:5|AP:-1|D:2|Abilities:
. Telemon Heavy Dreadnought Wound Track 1: Remaining W:8-14+|Characteristic 1:8"|Characteristic 2:2+|Characteristic 3:2+
. Telemon Heavy Dreadnought Wound Track 2: Remaining W:4-7|Characteristic 1:6"|Characteristic 2:3+|Characteristic 3:3+
. Telemon Heavy Dreadnought Wound Track 3: Remaining W:1-3|Characteristic 1:4"|Characteristic 2:4+|Characteristic 3:4+
Telemon and sag guard to help againgst hoards, and 20 sword and board boys. Plenty of CP with Trajann and CP regen trait. Shadowkeepers Captain is there to help againgst something really nasty. Its not fast, but you should take secondaries that are about board control and actions.
If you go full sword and board you dont have enough Damage output to get rid of hoards. Backfield telemon with grim resolve is very hard for your opponent to get rid of so he should be good for 3 turns unless againgst harlies, in which case you use him as a lure by hiding him in a corner.
My point was the original footstodes list of all Guardians would cost about 400 bucks. The Telemon ALONE costs $400, hell, the Sag are 70 a kit right now. with shipping. An All futstodes would, if viable, give you possibly the cheapest viable tournament list in all of 40k. All you need are 5-6 boxes of guardians. The SC come out of the boxes of guardians, as do the flag bearers. So you could do it. Hell, throw in a box of bikes and give yourself a FA option for another $60....
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: My point was the original footstodes list of all Guardians would cost about 400 bucks. The Telemon ALONE costs $400, hell, the Sag are 70 a kit right now. with shipping. An All futstodes would, if viable, give you possibly the cheapest viable tournament list in all of 40k. All you need are 5-6 boxes of guardians. The SC come out of the boxes of guardians, as do the flag bearers. So you could do it. Hell, throw in a box of bikes and give yourself a FA option for another $60....
A Telemon with 2 weapons costs 121$ so very close to 400$
Custodes still looking strong with a 1st place finish at Northern Front GT. We got Trajann, some sword 'n board, a block of Allarus, a Pallas, and a Shadowkeepers Ares gunship.
Crazy idea I had, but hear me out: what about the Orion??
Basic plan would be this: also take a 5-6 man unit of allarus. Turn 1, unleash the lions, all walk into the flyer, fly to opponents deployment zone. Turn 2, everyone gets out and scatters. Secondaries would be linebreaker (or engage on all fronts) and deploy scramblers. Orion flies around and shoots stuff like the Ares does, while your opponent is faced with killing all those terminators or letting you max a juicy secondary. Obviously it's vulnerable to the same deployment zone issues the Ares is, but that would still give you scoring at the end of turn 3, which using linebreaker gives 12 points assuming you can keep 2 terminators alive for 3 turns.
The problem I am seeing is that the Orion is much less capable of earning its points back, as the Ares. Anything the Ares looks at dies. It's like a flying Shadowsword. The Orion takes up almost a 4th of your points, for a few gimmicky moves the opponent will see coming, and try to blow it out of the sky. I'd much prefer using the Teleport, then scatter.
greyknight12 wrote:Crazy idea I had, but hear me out: what about the Orion??
Basic plan would be this: also take a 5-6 man unit of allarus. Turn 1, unleash the lions, all walk into the flyer, fly to opponents deployment zone. Turn 2, everyone gets out and scatters. Secondaries would be linebreaker (or engage on all fronts) and deploy scramblers. Orion flies around and shoots stuff like the Ares does, while your opponent is faced with killing all those terminators or letting you max a juicy secondary. Obviously it's vulnerable to the same deployment zone issues the Ares is, but that would still give you scoring at the end of turn 3, which using linebreaker gives 12 points assuming you can keep 2 terminators alive for 3 turns.
If you have an orion, please try this and report back how it worked out for you, because I really dig that idea.
Varied from my original plan and started both the terminators and a custodian guard squad in the flyer. Planned to unleash once I got out and wanted another durable unit back there. I went first, raised banners on 3 objectives and blasted at his leviathan dreadnought with the Orion and whiffed doing only 7 wounds. Big lesson for was turn 2; despite all my defensive buffs he shot the flyer down (it shot a blaze cannon on death for another 5 wounds to the dreadnought. But ravenwing plasma knights and devastator squad plus other shooting is overwhelming, worst though I rolled three 1s on the disembark. Killed a terminator and 2 shield guard, remaining shield guard and 1 more terminator died from extra shooting. Still split out the 3 terminators and did my thing, they ran around and tied up stuff until my bikes got there while my other shield guard hung out in combat on an objective. My characters existed solely to raise banners and on turn 3 I think I had 5.
His death wing knights deepstruck in on my shield-captain hiding in my backfield but he tanglefooted away the first charge and survived with 1 wound the next turn when they actually did charge. Some thoughts:
I didn’t think about a worst case with casualties from the disembark. Make sure to have enough ablative wounds!
Storm shields ignoring AP-1 in close combat is way more useful than I thought it would be.
Vital Intelligence is just as lopsided for go-first win as Goonhammer says it is.
Unless Valdor comes back from self-imposed exile, I highly doubt that’ll ever happen. But in truth, it would be waaaaaaay cooler if he did instead of another loyalist Primarch.
nordsturmking,
Aren't all SOS units in the war of the Spider book already (granted there aren't many)?
only outstanding 30k/ 40k potential unit is the rather snazzy transport I thought?
Brass eye wrote: nordsturmking,
Aren't all SOS units in the war of the Spider book already (granted there aren't many)?
only outstanding 30k/ 40k potential unit is the rather snazzy transport I thought?
Yes the 3 elites are in WotS but the 30k stuff would have been nice.
I doubt we will see more without some form of severe re-con. In the books it talks about them being a dying race, and Robby is sad that they were "allowed to wither". Alleya laments at the fact that there are less than 500 Battle trained sisters left, when before there were many times that. I guess they could just be like, hey we trained more sisters, but considering the pariahs are a 1/1000000 being, I don't see how many initiates they could suddenly "find". Let alone train and arm. But still, Cawl ret-con magic and a few upgrades, and suddenly we might have Plasma squads of SoS
I would have liked to get the 30k SoS transport, as its pretty awsome looking and has some interesting rules, but I guess they didnt want to try to convert it.
and would have ignore cover, -1 to hit in the shooting phase, light cover if being shot at from more than 12" away, D3 mortal wounds on a 4+ if it charges, and -2" Mv to a unit that it hits in the shooting phase.
Okay im a real fething negative person and GWS and FW have really screwed me in the past and as much as i want this book (im ordering it) I do not want to see what they're gonna do to my Saggitarrum Guard, Telemon and Galatus Noughts. Galatus is already overpriced for what it can do and Telemon will probably be 300+ points and the Sagittarum Guard will follow along suit and get a 5-10 points increase making them not worth it anymore. These are my predictions based on FW's/GWS past and their 9th edition points wise increase. I hope to god im wrong and Telemon stays under 300, but i think its highly unlikely.
I am curious if they will amend any of the weapon damages to align with the latest fixes to power weapons or if they will even do it as an FAQ prior to a new codex if it comes out next year. It still doesn't feel right that nearly all custode melee weapons are D3 damage. I just hope the FW point adjustments align with the other custode 9th edition point increases. who knows maybe the 'new' points in the FW book will be a bench mark for what the new codex points will be? i assume the codex/ points is already sorted and just waiting its release somewhere.
Is the telemon really worth less than 300 though? It's not a repulsor, obviously, but it can do at least as much damage as one. They are amazingly under costed.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Is the telemon really worth less than 300 though? It's not a repulsor, obviously, but it can do at least as much damage as one. They are amazingly under costed.
I disagree. I think their damage output for their price is fairly low. I think they are are sufficiently durable for their cost however.
At max, a twin cannon telemon can do....12+10 wounds, standing still.
A twin cannon leviathan can lay out 20 shots at 2 damage each (40 damage max), not counting the heavy flamers, and is only roughly 50 points more.
I see your point, and yes, I agree. The most OP unit in SMFW is superior to our Dreadnaught. So a unit that was outright blocked at multiple tournaments is better than our unit. You are correct.
That being said, it doesn't change the point of my argument. What do you think the Telemon should cost? At 250 it costs less than a squad of bikes/Terminators. So the difference is 275, which I still think is way less than it's worth. I'd say the unit alone should be 200, and the weapons could be tweaked around, but it should be close to 300 with anything but fists. Fists should make it around 250.
If the flamers get the change to 12, which is doubtful, I am still convinced they are at the right price. Are there any other models that hit 5 Strength 16 AP-3 D4 attacks at WS2 re-rolling 1s for a CP that also get built in 4d3 Blast flamers at 12" S6AP2 D1 for less than 30 points? I think 15 points would be raising the flags for NERF US TO HELL.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: If the flamers get the change to 12, which is doubtful, I am still convinced they are at the right price. Are there any other models that hit 5 Strength 16 AP-3 D4 attacks at WS2 re-rolling 1s for a CP that also get built in 4d3 Blast flamers at 12" S6AP2 D1 for less than 30 points? I think 15 points would be raising the flags for NERF US TO HELL.
The problem is that with the prevalence of invulnerable saves, 5 attacks isn't doing much. 4++'s are handed out fairly frequently so you should really read it more as S16 AP-1 D4 attacks (which would put the ubiquitous 3+ save on a 4+). Realistically, only 1 or 2 of those wounds are going through the 4++ and then only 1 if they re-roll the save. Volume is king once you're S7 or over.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: If the flamers get the change to 12, which is doubtful, I am still convinced they are at the right price. Are there any other models that hit 5 Strength 16 AP-3 D4 attacks at WS2 re-rolling 1s for a CP that also get built in 4d3 Blast flamers at 12" S6AP2 D1 for less than 30 points? I think 15 points would be raising the flags for NERF US TO HELL.
The problem is that with the prevalence of invulnerable saves, 5 attacks isn't doing much. 4++'s are handed out fairly frequently so you should really read it more as S16 AP-1 D4 attacks (which would put the ubiquitous 3+ save on a 4+). Realistically, only 1 or 2 of those wounds are going through the 4++ and then only 1 if they re-roll the save. Volume is king once you're S7 or over.
Good points. My point was bringing that kind of titan smacking strength comes at a cost. saying they need a drop in points isn't fair. They are priced at their potential ability. They can drop a knight to it's weakest bracket in a single melee phase, and if it did any wounds in the shooting phase (Likely) then it's likely a dead knight. For under 300 points. That is insane. Imagine if the Shadowsword was only 250 points, because it has no invuln, and it's 2d3 shots of 2d6 damage are VERY swingy?
No, I think the Telemon is fine where it is. Things cost what they cost based off their potential, not off their averages. If that were the case, our Guardians would cost s lot less.
YEah thats what im saying man, Forgeworld does odd things to Elite Armies and it's units making them over costed for no good reason (Blight Drone). Telemon i've got a bad feeling is gonna creep on 300-350 points making it Dead in the water. I'm also thinking Sagittarum Guard are gonna be 55-60 points a model making them dead in the water as well. It sad but this is what FW does best.
Rahdok wrote: YEah thats what im saying man, Forgeworld does odd things to Elite Armies and it's units making them over costed for no good reason (Blight Drone). Telemon i've got a bad feeling is gonna creep on 300-350 points making it Dead in the water. I'm also thinking Sagittarum Guard are gonna be 55-60 points a model making them dead in the water as well. It sad but this is what FW does best.
Keep in mind that FW is no longer writing the rules.
Right. GW wants their armies with new books to do really well in COVID, so there is more of a press on SMs right now. Have no doubt when Custodes Dex time comes around we will see significant changes, or my name isn't
ALWAYS MCWRONGABOUTGW III. Esq.
Honestly, I don’t want custodes to be a forge world faction. It’s just inflating the cost of the army beyond the means of many, and the value to cost of forgeworld models is fething insane in how poor it is
Too late. All our best units are already FW except for our sword and board guardians, bikes, and Trajann. I wonder what the Core rules will do to Trajann and Bikes costs though.
I am hoping not too much. I cant see how you can make units much more expensive and still keep it viable to build an army with. Making troops over 60 points a model for example, will just be too much to make them workable as a unit.
yes, which is why im fine with our standard 40mm infantry not gaining an extra wound.
The only models that could use extra wounds atm are the aquillon termies (+1 no points change) and calidius grav tanks (+2 no points change).
What i'd really want from our new codex is for our melee weapons to be reworked, our dreads to get the permanent -1 damage ability, our LR get a 5++, and wardens to go up to a 5+++ permanently.
We could also use some points revisions (why does a guardian blade cost 7 points and the spear cost 5 for a better weapon profile?).
Vexilla are overcosted atm too. they all need about a 20pt drop tbh..
Brass eye wrote: I am hoping not too much. I cant see how you can make units much more expensive and still keep it viable to build an army with. Making troops over 60 points a model for example, will just be too much to make them workable as a unit.
Yes but GW even said that they wanted "Armies to be smaller to make games quicker and building them easier!" They can increased the points across everything aside from a few. Even Custodes got points increases (albeit small oneS) but it was enough to make us go from like 30 to like 22 units. Now ad in FW which is notorious for fething up everything (Blight Drone) and you get custodes losing a Telemon and dropping to like 19-20 models.
Saggitarum guards bolter profile went to damage 2.
Aquillons fist went to flat 2 damage, and the claw got the +1 attack treatment. No extra wound though. They also got a points drop on the flamers and their base cost.
Flamers all went up to 12".
Fist telemon got buffed. 12 range on its plasma flamers and +1 attack per fist. This thing now can get 7 attacks and has the -1damage permanently on. Its also got a points drop for everything cept the storm cannons.
Bombs on the ares got changed to "Pick a point and all units take D3 mortal wounds on a 4+ (-1 to the roll for vehicles and characters).
Custodian Guard Squad with Adrasite and Pyrithite Spears:
Pyrithite spear got the new melta rule and went from 0 to 5points
Got the core keyword
Sagitarum
bolt volly goes from 1D per shot to 2D per shot
Got the core keyword
Aquilon
the fist went from 5 to 0 points so 75ppm with fist
Twin Adrathic Destructor went from 15 to 10 points
Aquillons fist went to flat 2 damage, and the claw got the +1 attack treatment.
Got the core keyword
Galatus
is 170ppm instead of 175
got the new minus 1 damage ability like all the marine dreads
flamer has 12" range now
has 5 attacks instead of 4
went down to 9 wounds and no longer have a damage table
Got the core keyword
Achillus
Twin Adrathic Destructor went from 15 to 10 points
got the new minus 1 damage ability like all the marine dreads
flamer has 12" range now
has 5 attacks instead of 4
lost the MW on charge
spears shooting is 3Dmg instead of D3Dmg
went down to 9 wounds and no longer have a damage table
Got the core keyword
Agamatus
went down from 100ppm to 95ppm
Twin las-pilser is 15 instead of 30 points
Got the core keyword
Venatari
Kinetic Destroyer and Tarsus Buckler down 5 point so 0
bucklers give 2+ instead of ignore ap Got the core keyword
Pallas
went down from 105 to 95
lost its Gravitic Backwash but still has the fly keyword
Caladius
lost its Gravitic Backwash but still has the fly keyword
Telemon
got the new minus 1 damage ability like all the marine dreads
went to 260 points but all war gear is 0 points except for the storm cannon which 15 per cannon so still 290 with two
flamer has 12" range now
he spiculus no longer shoots twice, you just change the profile to heavy 10 if you didn't move. we also lose the overwatch bit
Coronus Grav-Carrier
now 15 points cheaper 250 instead of 265
lost its Gravitic Backwash but still has the fly keyword
Orion
no changes
Ares
went from 430 to 450 points
the bomb ability is way different now:
"Once per turn after the bearer has moved you can select on point on the battle field the bearer has moved across roll a D6 for each unit in within 6" of that point (substract 1 if that model is a non VEHICLE or non MONSTER CHARACTER) on a 4+ that model suffers D3 mortal wounds."
here my thoughts:
i don't get why the Bolt cannon is still at 1 dmg and a heavy bolter has 2 dmg...
we don't have a strat for the back wash so it is gone completly
yeah telemon is 260 with any weapon combo cept for storm cannons, which you have to pay for. And you get +1 attack per ceastus, so +2 for double now.
Love the change to the firebombs on the ares. It was so situationally useful or a dud before. Now you can use it every game and it should do something. Also, it becomes a mortal wound generator againgst castles, which we lacked before. You can enter hover mode on turn 2 and basically drop it anywhere within 10" then fly back to where you were. Really makes it an amazing tool.
I dont know how I feel about the galatus still being S7....yeah, he got one more attack which is nice, but the sword being S user is still dumb.
The achillus losing his MW on charge ability is also dumb.
Both the achillus and galatus losing the dmg table is nice though.
I dont know if anyone noticed, but they buffed the venatari lance. It is now flat 2dmg instead of D3 dmg and each time the bearer fights he makes 1 additional attack. Thats....not bad at all I think.
Oh and I think the telemon went down to 4 attacks base. So thats a small nerf as well.
Edit: Nvm my comment about the telemon, with the new rules for the fists he gets the same amount of attacks, I just misread that. Also, since the venatari lance is now flat 2 dmg, I think guardian spears going to flat 2 dmg in our 9th ed codex is pretty likely.
Galas wrote: Yeah, we have heavely buffed in nearly all respects.
Just look at the SM Leviathan to see how things could have gone. I'm very glad with this.
The Levi dread drop to T7 WS/BS 3+ and to 16 shots S7 -1AP 2D with two storm cannons
5++ instead of 4++ It's ~100 points cheaper too but man what a nerf
really glad Telemon is still good. i think i will play him with 1 fist now because the he is 275 with 1 fist and a storm cannon instead of 295 and has 5 attacks always minus -1 damage
Oh my god...thank you forgeworld you didin't destroy my hopes and dreams T_T my sagittarum guard aren't gak! That being said how are the FW spear upgrades? I'm thinking of fielding my like 6 custode guard with them?
So, what I infer by these changes for the non forgeworld army. Our damage is getting simplified to 2 for everything, we aren't getting more wounds. And thas it outside points tweaks.
Automatically Appended Next Post: An aside, ares lists are gonna struggle hard against hordes with the bomb change. I'm on the opinion the bomb change is a nerf overall since it gives us tools we already do already with while taking away a tool we have more trouble fitting into the list.
If axes don't go to flat 2 then Aqiullons just took a lead in the "popping big targets" battle. Then again I don't see how you can't claim that clawwed up Aquillons with fire pikes aren't the best for clearing hordes in our entire faction now either. Then again if you are wasting your aquillons on clearing hordes you are missing something big.
I can and will claim that bikes with hurricane bolters are better for horde clearing.
I’m really liking the agamatus point costs, and 2+ on the Venetari means that you can run a pretty well-rounded list that is all T5, 2+, 4++(or better) and ignores AP-1 thanks to the terminator strat and new storm shields. Another thing to note is that almost everything barring tanks, flyers, and the telemon is core, meaning that when our auras change most stuff still gets re-rolls. That said, I’m not reading too much into statlines at this point, my personal hunch is that Custodes (or Talons) codex is probably close to a year away and the probably not even been thought out yet. If they change stuff there, FAQs are easy.
I am seriously considering running a 6 man squad of venatari, 3 guys with pistols and 3 with lances, because I think the melee potential of the lances is nothing to be sniffed at.
I also have to agree with what seems to be the general consensus that the telemon is even better now, which is obviiously really nice. FW custodes gonna be sold out....
Tiberias wrote: I am seriously considering running a 6 man squad of venatari, 3 guys with pistols and 3 with lances, because I think the melee potential of the lances is nothing to be sniffed at.
I also have to agree with what seems to be the general consensus that the telemon is even better now, which is obviiously really nice. FW custodes gonna be sold out....
on the US site the Custodes have been sold out for ~2 months aside from pieces like the spears or weapons or Sagittarum. I have had Telemon on my list for like 4 months and nothing so far.
If this has been covered I apologize in advance, but how does our -1dmg strat for our dreadnoughts work now that our dreads have permanent duty eternal? If I pop the strat for a dreadnought, will the damage be reduced by 2 now?
Tiberias wrote: If this has been covered I apologize in advance, but how does our -1dmg strat for our dreadnoughts work now that our dreads have permanent duty eternal? If I pop the strat for a dreadnought, will the damage be reduced by 2 now?
It is useless on the FW dreads now.
From the war of the spider FAQ:
Page 38 – Ancient ArtificeChange this Stratagem to read:
‘Use this Stratagem when an Adeptus Custodes Dreadnought model
from your army is chosen as the target for an attack. Until the end of
the phase, when resolving an attack made against that model, you can
reduce any damage suffered by 1, to a minimum of 1
(this is not cumulative with any other rules that reduce the damage).’
Tiberias wrote: If this has been covered I apologize in advance, but how does our -1dmg strat for our dreadnoughts work now that our dreads have permanent duty eternal? If I pop the strat for a dreadnought, will the damage be reduced by 2 now?
It is use less on the FW dreads now.
From the war of the spider FAQ:
Page 38 – Ancient ArtificeChange this Stratagem to read:
‘Use this Stratagem when an Adeptus Custodes Dreadnought model
from your army is chosen as the target for an attack. Until the end of
the phase, when resolving an attack made against that model, you can
reduce any damage suffered by 1, to a minimum of 1
(this is not cumulative with any other rules that reduce the damage).’
My main problem with the Ares is still the cost. In an extremely low model count army, we are still dumping a quarter of our entire force for a coked up Thunderhawk. I would have rather we see some form of cheap transport if we see anything.
we wont get a cheap transport. It wouldnt make sense logistically to put 150-300pts worth of models inside something that costed 100pts or less anyway.
If you need mobility, you take bikes or venetari.
Venetari are certainly viable now with the 2+ save however so i might pick some up.
We won’t get a cheap anything, lol. We’re Custodes. Honestly the only thing I want is out of LOS shooting, it’s the one major gap I’ve run into in games.
Had another good game with the Orion fun bus, this time I put my shield captain and vexilla in it and took “while we stand, we fight” for the secondary. Plan was to fly off the board once I dropped the Unleashed Allarus in my opponent’s backfield. Unfortunately had something come up and had to call the game early. I want to try the tactic again, basically if the rest of my army dies slowly enough I can easily get a decent amount of VPs out of the 700 pts that flies off the board every other turn.
If they do that and keep swords d3 I'd be pumped. I don't want my swordies to loose their danger factor. If they went to flat 1 they'd be practically worthless.
Just throwing this out there, what about a 2D3 Miseracordia strat or relic? I feel like we have these super special awesome totally not combat knives (Seriously don't even say that) and we never use them. I wish there was a way to make them viable and not broken.
well, thinking back to the conversation a few pages ago about how to make wardens more useful, i thought maybe some strats keyed off them specifically. i don't know, maybe a strat that turns their 6+ FNP into a 5+? or even a 4+ in a specific situation? something like
"when face to face and blade to blade with those that seek to kill the God-Emperor, the wardens iron will to fulfil their Oaths to the Emperor Himself lets them fight though wounds that would kill a mere astartes. the wardens Binding Oaths ability works on 5+ against melee attacks for this turn"
Just throwing this out there, what about a 2D3 Miseracordia strat or relic? I feel like we have these super special awesome totally not combat knives (Seriously don't even say that) and we never use them. I wish there was a way to make them viable and not broken.
its mentioned that the custodes have a habit/superstition of using their Miseracordia on chaos marines (page 20 of the current codex, Miseracordia box). maybe a bonus to Miseracordia attacks on Chaos keyworded units?
I dunno, I'm still a fan of making Wardens like a Hoplite unit. Spears and Shields. Screw their current "We're guardians but slightly tougher" schtick.
I wish our dreads hat obsec i would really like to play more of them.
I really hope all custodes units get obsec in the new codex since necrons can have it i don't see any reson why we can't and troops should count as 3 models.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I dunno, I'm still a fan of making Wardens like a Hoplite unit. Spears and Shields. Screw their current "We're guardians but slightly tougher" schtick.
As much as I'd love to have some space hoplites, they would have to redesign the weapons simply from a modelling perspective.
If you carry a shield and a spear, regardless whether you are a oiled up superhuman demigod or a normal bloke, you have to have the ability to grab the spear handle by the midsection to deliver an effective strike.
The guardian spears only have a handle right where the gun part of the spear starts and down near the pommel. If you were to model a warden in a classic hoplite pose, shield up and spear held over the shield, it wouldn't work. It would just look unbelievably stupid.
Now you can say, yeah it's a game where fungus people fight against bdsm elves...you just have to suspend your disbelief. But trust me, modeling a guardian spear with a shield would look really, really stupid in any action pose.
So yeah, simple solution. GW has to give us a new kit! Preferably a companion kit. You know the 300 guys that stand beside the emperor 24/7. Give them a new pole weapon option that can be used with a shield as well as some sort of special custodes power fist that can also be used with a shield. Problem solved....
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I dunno, I'm still a fan of making Wardens like a Hoplite unit. Spears and Shields. Screw their current "We're guardians but slightly tougher" schtick.
nice idea, but it would mean changing the current plastic kits for them, while invalidating the existing purchased models and any kits stockpiled at GW for sale, which adds a lot of expense to the equation. thats a hell of a hard sell, much easier to use a soft change like a strat to boost them than a hard change to the models. might be possible with a upgrade sprue like the GCS brood brothers one, or the various chapter specific "Upgrade" kits they did.
that, and if they have a shield in their off hand, how are they going to fire those their spears? the trigger is at the lower hand placement point.
Tiberias wrote: Sure, only works in idle positions though, and they can't fire their spear, which is dumb even by 40k standards
Not sure what you mean by this? As in you can only model them in idle? Or the 12' super giant human is incapable of shooting it's fluff gun? I'm not sure where you are pointing the dumb sign at? It's literally a game of space soldiers of the space god. I'm sure we can fluff up the shooting of their space spears 1 handed.
See my point is that when the spear is grabbed at the front and held above the shield like in the Pic it has basically the same reach as the sentinel blade. If it is grabbed in the back it would increase the reach but would look absolutely moronic.
Grabbing the spear by the midsection like in historic equivalents would be the optimal modeling choice, but that is not possible due to the design of the guardian spear.
maybe, but the other problem is that the guardian "spear" isnt actually very spear like. its much more of a glaive, or halberd, or bill hook (theirs a lot of historical names for fairly similar weapons, all of which would be fairly similar in actual use). Its not a stabbing weapon, which tend to have small, narrow heads to focus the energy behind the point to push through armour (like the lances on the jetbikes), much more of a cutting weapon, a axe on a stick (though obviously you can stab a bit with it, just its not designed for that as the main use), and every historical method of fighting with a glaive type weapon is two handed, to make proper use of the reach and to actually manoeuvre such a long weapon effectively. historical shield and spear armed people almost always used the spear to stab with.
I think you could effectively manage to wield the spear by the middle of the haft, as a stabbing or chopping weapon.
The other thing about making the shields usable by other models is that we can make all sorts of cool stratagems based off "shield combat".
1CP - Lock together - If two or more models in the unit have shields, they form an impenetrable wall of defense. Any models in this unit count as in dense cover if two or more models are equipped with shields.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I think you could effectively manage to wield the spear by the middle of the haft, as a stabbing or chopping weapon.
The other thing about making the shields usable by other models is that we can make all sorts of cool stratagems based off "shield combat".
1CP - Lock together - If two or more models in the unit have shields, they form an impenetrable wall of defense. Any models in this unit count as in dense cover if two or more models are equipped with shields.
Sorry but how? In the midsection there is this wider are with the trigger, how would you even hold that?
Getting benefits based how your squad is equipped I really like. I proposed something similar some time ago but people didn't like the idea because custodes are described as singular warriors in the lore, everyone fighting for themselves. I personally like your idea though, not sure if dense cover is worth 1cp though.
See i'd like the "Hoplite Wardens" to get a spear thats like a shotgun or simply make it a pistol OR have them have a special like THERMAL lance that plants into an enemy and then explodes dealing 2d3 mortal wounds to that squad and every squad within 3 inches of it. They could have ability called "Shields Held High" that protects them from explosive damage from vehicles/explosives.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I think you could effectively manage to wield the spear by the middle of the haft, as a stabbing or chopping weapon.
The other thing about making the shields usable by other models is that we can make all sorts of cool stratagems based off "shield combat".
1CP - Lock together - If two or more models in the unit have shields, they form an impenetrable wall of defense. Any models in this unit count as in dense cover if two or more models are equipped with shields.
Sorry but how? In the midsection there is this wider are with the trigger, how would you even hold that?
Getting benefits based how your squad is equipped I really like. I proposed something similar some time ago but people didn't like the idea because custodes are described as singular warriors in the lore, everyone fighting for themselves. I personally like your idea though, not sure if dense cover is worth 1cp though.
Considering a Shielded Guardian is already 1+3++, it would make them effectively able to negate anything less than a Melta/Lascannon shot to the face. Which is slightly hilarious.
I don't think we need more durability right now. The buffs to our storm shields right now, make that good.
Right now our issue is more the reliance on that blasted d3 damage roll everywhere. Moving away from that, and into a more consistent state, is a good thing. (Also means, less dice rolling in the game)
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I guess my concern is what is the "flat damage" rate for the individual weapons where they still maintain some distinctness?
Do spears, axes, swords, and lances all do flat 2 damage? Certainly axes and spears should do more than spears and swords?
Maybe D+1 on the charge?
I think, like power weapons, we can distinguish with stats other than damage. Make them all flat 2. Swords are S+1 AP-3, spears S+2 AP-2 and axes S+3 and AP-1.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I guess my concern is what is the "flat damage" rate for the individual weapons where they still maintain some distinctness?
Do spears, axes, swords, and lances all do flat 2 damage? Certainly axes and spears should do more than spears and swords?
Maybe D+1 on the charge?
I think, like power weapons, we can distinguish with stats other than damage. Make them all flat 2. Swords are S+1 AP-3, spears S+2 AP-2 and axes S+3 and AP-1.
I agree with you in general, but I think you can distinguish them even more without just relying on chaning AP and S around. Everybody says our sentinel blades need to get S+1 to be in line with space marine power swords, but I disagree that you can only bring our power swords in line by giving them S+1. We are already S5 base, which is a sweet spot as we all know, so you could instead do something like this:
Sentinel Blade:
S user; AP-3; D D3 abilities: every time the bearer fights he can make d3 additional attacks with this weapon.
What this would do is make our sword and board guards into a mini galatus. Yes the dmg is only D3, but the swords arent our main damage dealers anyway, and giving them more attacks would give them an additional role other than just being tough: clearing hordes.
Give the Spear S +2; AP -3 and flat 2 dmg and were golden. I'd personally even go further and give the spear two profiles, one with high strength and damage and one with more attacks, but that won't ever happen probably.
To make the axes feel more special I'd give them S +3;AP-2 and flat 2 dmg, but on the charge I'd change it to S x2 and damage D3+1.
That way our 3 weapon option all can fill a specific role and feel more unique in comparison.
It's funny, everyone is always trying to add attack profiles to our weapons. Swords shouldn't be great at clearing hordes, They already get pistol attacks and melee attacks in combat, they are insane as they are for hordes.
Your problem with the axe is it's going to completely invalidate bikes for attacking big things? One thing I love about my Custodes is they each have a purpose. The bikes are for hordes or big targets, the Terminators/wardens are for Big things and characters, the Guardians are the objective holders. The FW is just there for cheese.
I say keep the axes S+3 but make them AP4 3 damage, and bump the cost to 15. Make the spears 10 points and S+2 ap3 d2. Make swords S+1 AP2 D2. with a shooting profile that does S5 AP1 d2 per shot = cost 5
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: It's funny, everyone is always trying to add attack profiles to our weapons. Swords shouldn't be great at clearing hordes, They already get pistol attacks and melee attacks in combat, they are insane as they are for hordes.
Your problem with the axe is it's going to completely invalidate bikes for attacking big things? One thing I love about my Custodes is they each have a purpose. The bikes are for hordes or big targets, the Terminators/wardens are for Big things and characters, the Guardians are the objective holders. The FW is just there for cheese.
I say keep the axes S+3 but make them AP4 3 damage, and bump the cost to 15. Make the spears 10 points and S+2 ap3 d2. Make swords S+1 AP2 D2. with a shooting profile that does S5 AP1 d2 per shot = cost 5
Biker spears leave as is.
I think we just kind of have to disagree there. I would not consider them insane against hordes as they are.
Giving the axes Ap -4 would make allarus contest even more with aquilon and maybe even push them out of viability, which is never a good thing. I think the axes having AP -2 is a good thing.
Giving the axes more strength on the charge and the potential of more dmg with d3+1 would not invalidate bikes in my opinion. The bikes speed and toughness is their main asset in comparison, as well as their re-roll wounds on the charge. No unit would lose its purpose with those changes, it would open up new niches.
So a Custodes Guardian squad with swords, shields, and misers, gets in combat:
6 pistol shots at S4 AP0 D1 (Meh but still) 9x attacks at S5 AP3 D3, and 3 attack at S5 AP 2 D1.
That's still 18 attacks in combat, if they have a flag they get another 3x sword attacks. That is insane for 150ish points per squad against most "hordes" which are usually T3/4 1W.
Toss in Superior Fire patterns and that's now 12 pistol shots. Make it a unit of 5 and give them BL Vets, then any 6s auto wound. We really don't have the horde problem we think we do.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: That makes no sense, that an axe is worse at chopping through armor than a sword. I'd say reverse all those APs and you have it.
Haha, I just copied what GW does for power. So, you know, GW logic.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: That makes no sense, that an axe is worse at chopping through armor than a sword. I'd say reverse all those APs and you have it.
maybe*, but we arent trying to model reality, but are trying to create a viable niche for every weapon to sit in. having the big axes give high str bonus but poorer AP, and he swords a low str bonus but better AP, with the spear as a "happy medium", creates a range of options that work better against different targets, giving you choices in your selection.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: That makes no sense, that an axe is worse at chopping through armor than a sword. I'd say reverse all those APs and you have it.
maybe*, but we arent trying to model reality, but are trying to create a viable niche for every weapon to sit in. having the big axes give high str bonus but poorer AP, and he swords a low str bonus but better AP, with the spear as a "happy medium", creates a range of options that work better against different targets, giving you choices in your selection.
Also, I strongly recommend paying 1 
.
istol 2|S:4|
