Tiberias wrote: The nerf to ancient artifice is slightly annoying, but hey...the strat is still decent.
Has anyone given the venatari a spin in 9th already?
I gave them a whirl. I think I got unlucky though. They lost like two models to a Plagueburst Crawler, 1 to another weapon and then a 4th to morale (rolled a 6) after failing to kill a 4 wounds Malignant Plaguecaster with Superior Fire Patterns on their pistols.
Well that's not a great showing, but it seems the dice gods hated you that day.
Do the venatari have any good targets against tau? I have a Friendly game against the space communists coming up and was thinking of bringing venatari.
They do good against crisis suits.
But otherwise, no.
Venatari have a very stong niche which is killing heavy infantry. They are less strong, but still passible at light infantry and armor. Against standard tau nonsense you'll just be killing drones or firewarriors because their big suits have around 30 to 50 wounds
Thanks for the advice...maybe I'll swap them for some allarus.
How would you guys go about actually killing a riptide? My buddy never plays triptide thankfully, but every time I played against even just one of those suckers I felt that I just had to ignore it and play the mission, because I just couldn't kill it. Or it would have taken me way too many resources to take it down.
It just feels unkillable, when you have to weather overwatch, kill all the drones with massed shots and then still have to overcome a 3++ most of the time.
Jetbikes with Hurricane Bolters melt drone screens. Target the drones directly. Then direct Grav-Tank/Telemon fire at the Riptide and/or bring Hector Rex to deep strike in and shut off Overwatch.
Sadly no excpetion for thr Vindicare to ingore the new character rule so he is still pretty much useless because will just be shot to without a baby sitter unit
I don't think this is necessarily true. Sit him with some Sagittarum in cover and I think he'll still shine. After reading the FAQ, to me it reads that the Vindicare could get a -2 to hit as long as what is shooting at him doesn't have a +1 to hit. The -1/+1 to hit rule is after other modifiers have been taken. Negative stacks seem still possible.
Regardless, I don't think I'll stop using a Vindicare.
Hey, haven't played in about a year or so now, me and a mate are gonna play our first game of 9th ed next week. Don't really know much about 9th, gonna learn it as I play.
I've already made a list from just what I have lying around:
2x Bike Captains
1x Shield Captain
9x Guard
3x Wardens
1x Vexillus
1x Galatus Dreadnought
3x Bikes
1x Telemon Dreadnought
Has anything really changed about any of these guys from 8th? The only thing that I saw was that I can now give my bike captain +2W with a stratagem, which made me squeal a bit.
Anything else about running Custodes I should know that's changed before I play this game?
Sadly no excpetion for thr Vindicare to ingore the new character rule so he is still pretty much useless because will just be shot to without a baby sitter unit
I don't think this is necessarily true. Sit him with some Sagittarum in cover and I think he'll still shine. After reading the FAQ, to me it reads that the Vindicare could get a -2 to hit as long as what is shooting at him doesn't have a +1 to hit. The -1/+1 to hit rule is after other modifiers have been taken. Negative stacks seem still possible.
Regardless, I don't think I'll stop using a Vindicare.
Any modifiers to-hit or to-wound cap at 1.
If you would have a larger number, reduce it to 1.
mrhappyface wrote: Hey, haven't played in about a year or so now, me and a mate are gonna play our first game of 9th ed next week. Don't really know much about 9th, gonna learn it as I play.
I've already made a list from just what I have lying around:
2x Bike Captains
1x Shield Captain
9x Guard
3x Wardens
1x Vexillus
1x Galatus Dreadnought
3x Bikes
1x Telemon Dreadnought
Has anything really changed about any of these guys from 8th? The only thing that I saw was that I can now give my bike captain +2W with a stratagem, which made me squeal a bit.
Anything else about running Custodes I should know that's changed before I play this game?
Cheers.
Terminators and telemons are really good now. Everything else is still solid. You are playing one of the top tier armies of 9th edition so there's not much to say. Take whatever you want.
Has anyone of you faced ghazghkull in 9th? I had a friendly game against orks recently and ran into kind of a conundrum with old ghaz. I am not quite sure how I'm supposed to deal with him best.
Since the game now very much focuses on the midboard and having board presence there, you can't really avoid him while trying to score. At least I couldnt manage to do so.
I found it hard to screen him out because of our low numbers and because he just shreds through basically every unit we have because his claw is the perfect custodes killing weapon.
I managed to win that game by points, but it was very close and I felt I couldn't to much against ghaz because we basically only have the shooting phase and the fight phase to damage him, which is not enough. I tried to slow him and his entourage of nobz down with some tanglefoot grenades to prevent an early charge, but I rolled terribly on that one and he made all his charges.
So while I don't have a problem with orks having a character that shreds our golden boys, I'm still left wondering how to handle him best.
Also note that in these kind of friendly games I never soup and almost never tech in an Inquisitor (just out of personal preference and because my group isn't super competitive, thankfully)
Only things I can think of would be to shred his screen, plunk the 4 wounds off him in shooting. Clear whatever character heals him each turn, charge a squad with storm shields in, put another 4 wounds on him, and then for the return attacks pop Arcane Genetic Alchemy so he can't wound them any better than on 4s, and hope your saves are good.
Bikes and Sword and Board Guardians melt him down pretty fast, though he is essentially a green Bobby G. He hits like a truck and is hard to put down. Sword and Board groups or Allarus Terminators with Spears and the Spear strat for +1 to wound can drop him relatively quickly I've found, but then you have basically created a weaker squad of expensive elites with basically no purpose till the end of the game.
iGuy91 wrote: Only things I can think of would be to shred his screen, plunk the 4 wounds off him in shooting. Clear whatever character heals him each turn, charge a squad with storm shields in, put another 4 wounds on him, and then for the return attacks pop Arcane Genetic Alchemy so he can't wound them any better than on 4s, and hope your saves are good.
Tried that, didn't work. I'm notoriously bad at making 3++ saves, but the main issue is that ghaz has a shitton of attacks and everything that gets through kills one of our guys, whether it's a guard with storm shield, a terminator or a bike. He shred through a three man unit of shield guys, even though I popped arcane genetic alchemy and emperors auspice so he cant reroll 1s.
I immediately like that list, simply because he brought an achillus.
Also, allarus with spears?! Consider me shocked!
Edit: also venatari without the pistols? Wasn't their whole point after war of the spider that their pistols got amazing because of the superior firing patterns strat? I'd love to hear the reasoning for the lances....better melee potential?
Balanced for what though? It's all over the place. Nothing here is really great for locking down objectives, the bikes won't earn their points back unless they are hunting large T7+ flyers, and the Allarus won't actually see much use outside of maybe character hunting? I really don't see the purpose of a list like this. It's not really great at anything, and doesn't use the real strengths of the army.
That's precisely the point. This is a very tactically flexible and mobile list. 9th edition matched play games are won or lost on secondaries and point denial, and every pick in this list has multiple ways to contribute to both functions.
Eihnlazer wrote: That may be true, but I certainly wouldnt use venetari with the spears personally.
The pistols are good all the time and they get the benefit of ignoring AP-1 with the bucklers.
Litterally the only target i'd rather the spears againgst is Bullgryns with the +2 save shield.
I'd agree with that. I used the venatari once in 9th with their pistols and they really did some work and presented quite a threat for my opponent with the superior firing patterns strat.
I'm not a top placing competitive player though....so maybe I'm missing the bigger picture.
The spears look way cooler though, maybe that's the reason
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Balanced for what though? It's all over the place. Nothing here is really great for locking down objectives, the bikes won't earn their points back unless they are hunting large T7+ flyers, and the Allarus won't actually see much use outside of maybe character hunting? I really don't see the purpose of a list like this. It's not really great at anything, and doesn't use the real strengths of the army.
With equalized points to hurricanes, salvo launchers are quite useful for plinking tank wounds off.
Spears are actually a contention now, especially with all space marines and now custodes having access to transhuman meaning wounding on 2s is less useful and it's half the points of an axe. It's not so clear cut as it used to be
With the current prevalence of vehicles and other high toughness models combined with the nerf to hordes and our other anti infantry weapons on most models I think the salvo launcher is a good choice.
No -1 for moving now, same cost as a hurricane with better optimal range and it has blast if you really need to fire at a horde so not a total waste.
The ability to put some very accurate re-roll wounds, -4 Ap shots into something with the strat for rolling 2D6 and choosing the highest makes for a solid anti tank option which we lack outside of forgeworld.
WisdomLS wrote: With the current prevalence of vehicles and other high toughness models combined with the nerf to hordes and our other anti infantry weapons on most models I think the salvo launcher is a good choice.
No -1 for moving now, same cost as a hurricane with better optimal range and it has blast if you really need to fire at a horde so not a total waste.
The ability to put some very accurate re-roll wounds, -4 Ap shots into something with the strat for rolling 2D6 and choosing the highest makes for a solid anti tank option which we lack outside of forgeworld.
Since I brought up Ghazghkull....there is another unit I wanted to discuss, that is similarly annoying to deal with, namely the wulfen.
Their 3++ and 5+++ makes it rather difficult to just shoot them off the board and it seems to me that there is not point in getting into melee with them with any of our units, since we would probably fight last anyway. And even if you manage to wipe the wulfen squad, they will most likely take a large chunk of your unit with them.
Since they are quite fast and can advance and charge, it's also rather difficult to keep them at a distance. Even if you keep throwing tanglefoot grenades at them.
They seem like the perfect unit to bully our guys. What are you pro tips when facing them?
WisdomLS wrote: .
The ability to put some very accurate re-roll wounds, -4 Ap shots into something with the strat for rolling 2D6 and choosing the highest makes for a solid anti tank option which we lack outside of forgeworld.
Would just like to point out, that you don't have to pick the. highest die with the strat. It allows you to pick any die, just like Eradicators. I know you always want to pick the highest, but if you have to shoot at Necrons with QS, this small change can be useful
Tiberias wrote: Since I brought up Ghazghkull....there is another unit I wanted to discuss, that is similarly annoying to deal with, namely the wulfen.
Their 3++ and 5+++ makes it rather difficult to just shoot them off the board and it seems to me that there is not point in getting into melee with them with any of our units, since we would probably fight last anyway. And even if you manage to wipe the wulfen squad, they will most likely take a large chunk of your unit with them.
Since they are quite fast and can advance and charge, it's also rather difficult to keep them at a distance. Even if you keep throwing tanglefoot grenades at them.
They seem like the perfect unit to bully our guys. What are you pro tips when facing them?
A Single squad of Wulfen can be treated like a Distraction Carnifex. If you simple must destroy them, treat them like other heavy Elites. Bikes or Wardens back up with a flag. They should fight first, and handily wipe them off the table. As with literally everything else vs. Custodes, our answers seem to be bikes or Allarus. They would rip through our troop choices unless you get lucky with the blaster sags and they fail their invuln. Still a single Wulfen would tear through sag guard alarmingly fast.
My bikers have had really good luck in the past shooting enough off the board, then charging. If you didn't bring bikes, just try to play keep away with terrain. Anyone who brings multiple squads of 10 man Wulfen Packs is just asking to be gunlined.
Tiberias wrote: Since I brought up Ghazghkull....there is another unit I wanted to discuss, that is similarly annoying to deal with, namely the wulfen.
Their 3++ and 5+++ makes it rather difficult to just shoot them off the board and it seems to me that there is not point in getting into melee with them with any of our units, since we would probably fight last anyway. And even if you manage to wipe the wulfen squad, they will most likely take a large chunk of your unit with them.
Since they are quite fast and can advance and charge, it's also rather difficult to keep them at a distance. Even if you keep throwing tanglefoot grenades at them.
They seem like the perfect unit to bully our guys. What are you pro tips when facing them?
A Single squad of Wulfen can be treated like a Distraction Carnifex. If you simple must destroy them, treat them like other heavy Elites. Bikes or Wardens back up with a flag. They should fight first, and handily wipe them off the table. As with literally everything else vs. Custodes, our answers seem to be bikes or Allarus. They would rip through our troop choices unless you get lucky with the blaster sags and they fail their invuln. Still a single Wulfen would tear through sag guard alarmingly fast.
My bikers have had really good luck in the past shooting enough off the board, then charging. If you didn't bring bikes, just try to play keep away with terrain. Anyone who brings multiple squads of 10 man Wulfen Packs is just asking to be gunlined.
Thanks for the advice. But I don't think I'd agree that wulfen can be treated as a distraction carnifex. Correct me if I'm wrong here but a distraction carnifex by definition is something that looks scarier than it is and is therefore used to draw attention away from more important units. Well, wulfen are scary. They hit harder then we do and even if you manage to kill them, they are going to take a massive chunk of your, probably more expensive, unit with them.
Also how do you recon we do in fact fight first when we choose to charge a squad of wulfen with our bikes for example? Things like the armor of russ and the new judicar can turn off your charge quite easily.
But let's say no judicar and no character with the relic is near the wulfen unit and you decide to charge them with a 5man bike squad. Even if you manage to wipe the wulfen squad, chances are you are going to lose multiple bikes in return. I don't get how that could ever be a desirable exchange considering our low model number and expensive units.
Tiberias wrote: Since I brought up Ghazghkull....there is another unit I wanted to discuss, that is similarly annoying to deal with, namely the wulfen.
Their 3++ and 5+++ makes it rather difficult to just shoot them off the board and it seems to me that there is not point in getting into melee with them with any of our units, since we would probably fight last anyway. And even if you manage to wipe the wulfen squad, they will most likely take a large chunk of your unit with them.
Since they are quite fast and can advance and charge, it's also rather difficult to keep them at a distance. Even if you keep throwing tanglefoot grenades at them.
They seem like the perfect unit to bully our guys. What are you pro tips when facing them?
A Single squad of Wulfen can be treated like a Distraction Carnifex. If you simple must destroy them, treat them like other heavy Elites. Bikes or Wardens back up with a flag. They should fight first, and handily wipe them off the table. As with literally everything else vs. Custodes, our answers seem to be bikes or Allarus. They would rip through our troop choices unless you get lucky with the blaster sags and they fail their invuln. Still a single Wulfen would tear through sag guard alarmingly fast.
My bikers have had really good luck in the past shooting enough off the board, then charging. If you didn't bring bikes, just try to play keep away with terrain. Anyone who brings multiple squads of 10 man Wulfen Packs is just asking to be gunlined.
Thanks for the advice. But I don't think I'd agree that wulfen can be treated as a distraction carnifex. Correct me if I'm wrong here but a distraction carnifex by definition is something that looks scarier than it is and is therefore used to draw attention away from more important units. Well, wulfen are scary. They hit harder then we do and even if you manage to kill them, they are going to take a massive chunk of your, probably more expensive, unit with them.
Also how do you recon we do in fact fight first when we choose to charge a squad of wulfen with our bikes for example? Things like the armor of russ and the new judicar can turn off your charge quite easily.
But let's say no judicar and no character with the relic is near the wulfen unit and you decide to charge them with a 5man bike squad. Even if you manage to wipe the wulfen squad, chances are you are going to lose multiple bikes in return. I don't get how that could ever be a desirable exchange considering our low model number and expensive units.
I will fully admit that losing bikes to what is essentially one of the single best melee units in the game is going to be inevitable. But honestly, how many SW players do you have at your store. I have exactly 0, it's somewhat rare to see them, but if an opponent throws 30 Wulfen backed up by Ragnar and a captain, with Storm shields and thunder hammers, Just go BOHICA mode. We don't have the perfect counter to them, which is hordes. We also don't have useless cheap screen units, unless you are taking a bunch of sisters with flamers/bolters. Our best option, of the few we have is to shoot them off the board. Unless you plan on using tanks and dreads with the Long Range d2 guns, you are basically hoping for lucky bike shooting. The Aquilons with Flamers and Powerfists might work too, but that is a lot of points to dedicate to eliminating a single unit, which he will likely kill on the fight back.
Like I said, it's one of the best units in the game at melee. which is basically our entire game. They are hard to kill and hit like a coked up dumptruck.
When I said treat them like a carnifex, I mean don't plan your list around them, because thats going to lose you points on objectives.
Gotcha, thanks for the advice. I believe that venatari with their pistol load out are our best option to deal with Wulfen. With the new strat a 6man squad should dish out enough d2 shots to at least severely cripple a Wulfen unit.
Your argument about the frequency of playing space wolves players is fair. My personal case is different though, because I don't play at stores. I always play with the same 4 buddies of mine and one just started space wolves as his second army with the indomitus Box, so I am going to face them and Wulfen quite often.
I'll try the venatari angle against them and report back whether it worked at all.
Tiberias wrote: Gotcha, thanks for the advice. I believe that venatari with their pistol load out are our best option to deal with Wulfen. With the new strat a 6man squad should dish out enough d2 shots to at least severely cripple a Wulfen unit.
Your argument about the frequency of playing space wolves players is fair. My personal case is different though, because I don't play at stores. I always play with the same 4 buddies of mine and one just started space wolves as his second army with the indomitus Box, so I am going to face them and Wulfen quite often.
I'll try the venatari angle against them and report back whether it worked at all.
Yeah I played the 2nd place Space wolf player in the Adelaide GT and his Wulfen basically invalidated my entire list. I've already ordered a unit of Venatari to hopefully fix that problem. With the seeming growing meta of elite infantry, bikes and (Depending where you play) the higher prevalence of light cover Venetari are looking to be a very solid choice even if its just a single unit of 5.
The Telemon with Illiastus Accelerator Culverins or the Grav-Tank with the same are also good options, but watch out of the psyker power to make the Wulfen untargetable to shooting.
Another option would be to put a Culexus assassin in with a big melee squad. The assassin can force the Wulfen to fight last, hopefully allowing you to do enough damage.
So It may not surprise anyone here, but I completely forgot about assassins. A single Eversor backed up with a Calidus will wipe the smile off any Wulfen Squad. If the Callidus doesn't kill them, the resulting 16 attacks from the Eversor will, and if that doesn't the Frenzon pop will kill any stragglers.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So It may not surprise anyone here, but I completely forgot about assassins. A single Eversor backed up with a Calidus will wipe the smile off any Wulfen Squad. If the Callidus doesn't kill them, the resulting 16 attacks from the Eversor will, and if that doesn't the Frenzon pop will kill any stragglers.
That combination kills precisely two Wulfen protected by storm shields. Including the fight twice.
Where am I messing up the math? Am I missing that the Callidus melee ignores all invuln saves, and is AP3 D2. If it touches a wulfen that wulfen dies. So on average with 5 attacks hitting on 2+ thats 4 dead wulfen. Then it gets a D1 attack against another wulfen that hits on 2+ and wounds on a 3.
Then the Eversor fights and gets possibly 16 attacks at S5 AP1 that gets to reroll all wound rolls. If they shoot first or the Eversor throws his Melta bomb that is way more than 2 dead.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Where am I messing up the math? Am I missing that the Callidus melee ignores all invuln saves, and is AP3 D2. If it touches a wulfen that wulfen dies. So on average with 5 attacks hitting on 2+ thats 4 dead wulfen. Then it gets a D1 attack against another wulfen that hits on 2+ and wounds on a 3.
Then the Eversor fights and gets possibly 16 attacks at S5 AP1 that gets to reroll all wound rolls. If they shoot first or the Eversor throws his Melta bomb that is way more than 2 dead.
5 attacks.
25/6 hits.
25/12 wounds, or about two failed saves
Then the Wulfen get their FNP, so you only kill 1 on average with the main weapon.
So on the Callidus all of them would wound, because the AP would eliminate a armor save, and they don't get an invuln. So it's just a 5+++ on ever point of damage, which would be 5 hits, 10 damage, where did I mess up?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So on the Callidus all of them would wound, because the AP would eliminate a armor save, and they don't get an invuln. So it's just a 5+++ on ever point of damage, which would be 5 hits, 10 damage, where did I mess up?
5 attacks.
25/6 hits-so you're already down to just over 4 hits, and then you have to wound.
25/12 wounds-which means, on average, you get two wounds on them, at D2 each. A Wulfen has a 5/9 chance of surviving a D2 swing with at least 1 wound left, meaning you've got good odds of killing one real hard, and not touching another.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So on the Callidus all of them would wound, because the AP would eliminate a armor save, and they don't get an invuln. So it's just a 5+++ on ever point of damage, which would be 5 hits, 10 damage, where did I mess up?
The Callidus is S4 on the weapon that ignores invulns, and wounds on a 3+ on its other weapon but faces the invuln with that additional attack. There isnt an auto-wound. None of her special weapon abilities are specific to her datasheet, theyre specific to the individual weapons she carries.
Dont get me wrong, I love the unit as its just mayhem incarnate on the table, but against Wulfen its a baaaaaaaaad pairing.
So what then? Inquisitor Mortal spam? Is there anything that we can bring to battle Space wolves? Triple Orions with beams, lol? I mean, I feel like sacrificing a squad of bikes to eliminate their best unit on the table makes sense. It hurts, don't get me wrong, but bikes are about the only this that has enough oomph to take them on, right?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So what then? Inquisitor Mortal spam? Is there anything that we can bring to battle Space wolves? Triple Orions with beams, lol? I mean, I feel like sacrificing a squad of bikes to eliminate their best unit on the table makes sense. It hurts, don't get me wrong, but bikes are about the only this that has enough oomph to take them on, right?
Terminators + Culexus. Armor of Russ makes you fight last, Culexus makes them fight last, you fight first because it's your turn. Aquilons and Jetbikes do about the same amount of damage.
Shooting is the real answer though. 10 Jetbikes kill about 6 Wulfen with just Hurricane Bolters. 10 Allarus with Superior Fire stratagem should do about the same if they can get their Ballistus Grenade Launchers in range too (a little less otherwise).
It is worth noting that every Wulfen I've ever seen, aside from the pack leader, takes a storm shield.
I'd propose the best way to kill them is Aquilon Terminators with Storm Bolters, and Superior Fire Patterns, or Hurricane Bolter bikes.
Remember, Wulfen fight in melee when they die. You don't want to engage them in melee unless you absolutely have to, and if you do, be prepared to lose the squad fighting them in kind.
iGuy91 wrote: It is worth noting that every Wulfen I've ever seen, aside from the pack leader, takes a storm shield.
I'd propose the best way to kill them is Aquilon Terminators with Storm Bolters, and Superior Fire Patterns, or Hurricane Bolter bikes.
Remember, Wulfen fight in melee when they die. You don't want to engage them in melee unless you absolutely have to, and if you do, be prepared to lose the squad fighting them in kind.
The biggest hurdle on the Aquilons is you can't take more than 6 in a unit while the Allarus can take 10. It's one of the few times you're better off with Allarus (because you want as many as possible to be affected by Superior Fire Patterns).
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: How many S4 AP1 D2 shots would it take to wipe a 5 man wulfen squad with ss off the table?
BS2+ re-rollable S4 AP-1 D2 shots
Vs
T4 3++/5+++ 2W?
About 46 shots to kill all 5, not taking into account the chance of saving 1 of the 2 damage with the ignore wounds save which would invalidate maybe a 1/6th of the wounds dealt? So maybe over 50 shots?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: How many S4 AP1 D2 shots would it take to wipe a 5 man wulfen squad with ss off the table?
Lets see.....
36 Shots
Assuming No Rerolls,
30 Hits on 2+
15 Wounds on 4+
5 Wounds go through against a 3++
This would rely on them failing every single FNP however, so it takes closer to 40 shots.
So if I dropped a squad of 10 allarus with axes 9" from them, and popped the double rapid fire strat, that is 40 shots. Then factor in their launchers, add in a captain for re-rolls.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So if I dropped a squad of 10 allarus with axes 9" from them, and popped the double rapid fire strat, that is 40 shots. Then factor in their launchers, add in a captain for re-rolls.
Yeah. If you drop 710 points of Allarus terminators in, with a 110 Point Captain, you can successfully kill 226 Points of Wulfen.
Alternatively, you should be able to do that amount of damage with 6 Aquilon Termies with superior Fire patterns, as they're getting 8 shots apiece in rapid fire range, being able to wound on 3s is very useful.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: How many S4 AP1 D2 shots would it take to wipe a 5 man wulfen squad with ss off the table?
Or use Venatari, which are S6 AP-2 D2 shots with the pistols.
A squad of six will put down (Edited because I forgot Wulfen get a 5++. Does the Mechanicus know they're given wolf men precious artifice?)
A squad of 6 will put down 1.21 in shooting on their own, 1.43 when rerolling 1's, and 2.96 with the double shots strat. It's not a wipe, but Venatari are quite versatile and it's better than what our other shooting options can do.
If you have to go into melee, Venatari still have a 4++.
I'm not going to lie, I don't like the idea of using a unit that really has no specific purpose post wulfen elimination. They don't hold objectives well, they don't deal well against hordes, and they can't hunt characters. I may be showing my anti-FW bias here, but everything that Venetari do "well" is done better by existing units in most base lists, SC on bikes, bike squads, Allarus Terminators, Wardens, and Sword and Board troop teams.
I think a 5-man bike squad with hurricane bolters and some backup might work, single damage high-rate-of-fire weapons are your best change to deal with the multi-wound FNP combo.
Bike squad with Trajan re-rolls and 1CP for Blood Games Veterans does 58.3 hits, 9.7 of which auto-wound. The remaining 48.6 shots get 28.35 additional wounds, for 38.05 wounds. 3++ takes that down to 12.7, FNP means 8.5 or 4.2 dead wulfen.
Also, FWIW 5-man aquilons with Trajan and Superior Fire Patterns gets 38.9 hits, which become 30.2 wounds, 10.1 unsaved with 6.7 making it through FNP for 3.4 dead wulfen.
Additionally, if they get to close combat they have 4 attacks base at S10 AP-3 flat 3, hitting on 3's (4's outside assault doctrine, assuming no bonuses). Scary, but we can 1) Arcane Genetic Alchemy and 2) Emperor's Auspice so now they are wounding only on a 4+ with no re-rolls. Now you can punch them in the face and they each do 1.3 wound to a Custodian before he takes a 4++, and it takes 2 unsaved wounds to kill a terminator. So to wipe a 5-man terminator unit, you need a squad of at least 7 wulfen if the terminators charge and strike first. It's still a miserable trade though for us even if it works out. Hopefully their storm shields go to 4++ and then they become alot less durable and we can kill them easier.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I'm not going to lie, I don't like the idea of using a unit that really has no specific purpose post wulfen elimination. They don't hold objectives well, they don't deal well against hordes, and they can't hunt characters. I may be showing my anti-FW bias here, but everything that Venetari do "well" is done better by existing units in most base lists, SC on bikes, bike squads, Allarus Terminators, Wardens, and Sword and Board troop teams.
They’re an great unit that have a much greater potential than wardens do, anything the wardens do allarus do better, while the ventari hit a perfect sweet spot of been able to damage anything, superior firepower Helps them munch hordes,light vehicles and when primaris marines are everywhere s6 -2 d2 is amazing, they’re infantry so they get to abuse cover, tanglefoot to bait charges and they’re mobility allows them to be where they need to be.
White Scars running the new Primaris bikes. What are our best ways to prevent them from Move+Advance+Charging all over the board and keeping us hemmed back into a deployment zone?
Our bikes are fast, but the stats are somewhat comparable. Looks like first to hit wins that exchange.
White Scars running the new Primaris bikes. What are our best ways to prevent them from Move+Advance+Charging all over the board and keeping us hemmed back into a deployment zone?
Our bikes are fast, but the stats are somewhat comparable. Looks like first to hit wins that exchange.
Maybe stay on top of objectives, screen your bikes and keep characters near by so you can use the charge in their turn stratagem, the two interupt stratagems and heroically intervene. If they make multiple charges in one turn you should hopefully do significant damage to them at the cost of one unit and a lot of CP.
White Scars running the new Primaris bikes. What are our best ways to prevent them from Move+Advance+Charging all over the board and keeping us hemmed back into a deployment zone?
Our bikes are fast, but the stats are somewhat comparable. Looks like first to hit wins that exchange.
Maybe stay on top of objectives, screen your bikes and keep characters near by so you can use the charge in their turn stratagem, the two interupt stratagems and heroically intervene. If they make multiple charges in one turn you should hopefully do significant damage to them at the cost of one unit and a lot of CP.
Their damage output doesn't rack up until turn 3 in assault doctrine, up until that point you're winning exchanges with them. Bikes of our own and aggressively running our terminators up the board to wait for the charge is probably a good bet. Shadowkeepers is great against space marines if you're running bikes cause most marines will wound you on 6's now. Space Marines also rarely get above AP-2 in melee outside of a few guys with thunder hammers, so you get a 2+ on terminators against them with Araumite and Adamantium. I've only played 2 games of 9th so far but one was against blood angels; my biggest mistake was 1) deepstriking my terminators and 2) not shoving my entire army forward. I think being aggressive in kind against melee armies is probably the way to go, I know for me I have to get out of the "castle in the back around the Vexilla!" mindset.
I completely dropped the vexilla from my dread host list.
For one, he's a bit overcosted for his stats. For 2 since im only down to 2 tanks instead of my previous 3 and dense terrain is a thing, the magnifica just isn't as needed. For 3 he's a character and gives up 3 points from secondaries.
I just ditched him. Freed up enough points for me to get a 6th aquillon and daggers on everyone.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: How many S4 AP1 D2 shots would it take to wipe a 5 man wulfen squad with ss off the table?
Lets see.....
36 Shots
Assuming No Rerolls,
30 Hits on 2+
15 Wounds on 4+
5 Wounds go through against a 3++
This would rely on them failing every single FNP however, so it takes closer to 40 shots.
With rerolls, the odds of course improve.
5+++ will negate one wound about half the time(55% to be more exact) soaking another.g d2 So basically you kill 2 per 3 past save. think you are underestimating effect of fnp. It's very good for w2 models vs dam2 weapons. Basically another 4+ save.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Ok, wait, how is a 5/6 equate to 55%? It's literally a 32% chance that they make the roll.
Because a Wulfen only needs to make a single FNP roll to make killing them (even more) incredibly inefficient when you're trying to kill them with bolters. You're rolling for each point of damage, not per unsaved wound. If they save one damage on a 2d attack, by definition it requires another unsaved wound to kill it (at minimum).
As stated, a 5+++ is exceptional at keeping 2w models alive against 2d attacks.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Ok, wait, how is a 5/6 equate to 55%? It's literally a 32% chance that they make the roll.
If it's 5+++ you have 55% chance of passing at least one. Which means next dam2 hit is required. Basically same reason why d3 weapons aren't as good as flat 2 vs 2 wound models. When you roll 1 you need another and it doesn't matter how much damage next cause. Over average doesn't compensate failing to kill.
So out of 2 hits one will fail both 5+++ and wolfen dies, another will pass 1 and require another hit. 3 through past shield, 2 dead.
There's another good example. There's 4w model in de that has 6+++ fnp. Doesn't sound much. Unless you are crazy enough to attack them with flat 4 damage weapon that's fairly inefficient as i found causing 4 past reqular save and killing 2. Then i got eaten. That 6+++ was more like 4++. All he needed was roll single 6 out of 4 and one model required another dam4 hit to finish last wound.
That's why vs w2 fnp target you prefer twice the shots at dam1 than half the shots at dam2.
Also means if custodians can get even 6+++ that will really ruin day for lots of weapons and in particular flat3 damage weapons will hate that.
edit: It's possible I have made logic mistake in my code but simulating 100,000 shots by dam2 weapons vs 2 wound 5++ I came to result that it took basically 100 shots to kill 59 models. Obviously even less dead models vs d3 damage weapons.
Awesome, thank you for explaining that. So I just learned that our 6+++ applies to any wounds in the psyker phase, not just psychic wounds. So that is fun.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Awesome, thank you for explaining that. So I just learned that our 6+++ applies to any wounds in the psyker phase, not just psychic wounds. So that is fun.
Interesting.
Are there any ways to take damage that aren't from MW in the psychic phase? Off the top of my head I can't think of any
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Awesome, thank you for explaining that. So I just learned that our 6+++ applies to any wounds in the psyker phase, not just psychic wounds. So that is fun.
Interesting.
Are there any ways to take damage that aren't from MW in the psychic phase? Off the top of my head I can't think of any
Only one I can think of is the Grey Knight psychic power that enables a unit to move and shoot in the psychic phase. But the rule explicitly says “mortal wound in the psychic phase”.
White Scars running the new Primaris bikes. What are our best ways to prevent them from Move+Advance+Charging all over the board and keeping us hemmed back into a deployment zone?
Our bikes are fast, but the stats are somewhat comparable. Looks like first to hit wins that exchange.
Maybe stay on top of objectives, screen your bikes and keep characters near by so you can use the charge in their turn stratagem, the two interupt stratagems and heroically intervene. If they make multiple charges in one turn you should hopefully do significant damage to them at the cost of one unit and a lot of CP.
WS outriders are no real threat to a custodian until T3. If they were to advance and charge straight in (why they would do that I don't know), they would 'only' chuck out 19 str4 attacks, which equates to 4.2 wounds so around 1.5 wounds done. Even if they used the 'still shoot after advance' strat it'd only equate to another wound or so on top, so on average would not even kill a model.
In return, outriders are almost the perfect target for custodes. T5 so wounding on 3s, putting them onto a 6++, and doing multi damage. a squad of 3 spears nearly wipes the squad, let alone any of our other options.
Then seeing as they cost quite a bit and can only be taken in 3s, I doubt even 3 outrider squads in our face T1 would trouble a custodes army. Best they'd serve is as a roadblock.
As someone starting WS for this edition, I'd be very scared of custodes
However if they're saved for T3... then I'd get worried. Mulch bikes and termies completely
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Awesome, thank you for explaining that. So I just learned that our 6+++ applies to any wounds in the psyker phase, not just psychic wounds. So that is fun.
Interesting.
Are there any ways to take damage that aren't from MW in the psychic phase? Off the top of my head I can't think of any
Only one I can think of is the Grey Knight psychic power that enables a unit to move and shoot in the psychic phase. But the rule explicitly says “mortal wound in the psychic phase”.
I've had quite a few vehicles pop in the psyker phase. Those count. Also, certain armies have shooting that does mortal wounds that can be triggered in the psyker phase. Also if a psyker pops and goes all perils of the warp, that counts.
So did anyone see the buffs/changes to heavy flamers and melee weapons? Power swords are now S+1, and Power fists are now Sx2 AP3 D2. Heavy Flamers are now 12", and Chain fists are now Sx2 AP4 D3
If this goes over to Custodes, I expect Sword and board to be hella good now. Slight nerf to Aquilons, but I'll take it for Primaris munching.
Yes, you are right, but signs point to the shields applying, and if they universally apply the SS rules, then is it unreasonable to dream the swords would go that way as well?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, Heavy Flamer is a pretty universal weapon type. Almost every race/faction has one. Just dreaming here, but Telemon with 12" fist flamers?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So did anyone see the buffs/changes to heavy flamers and melee weapons? Power swords are now S+1, and Power fists are now Sx2 AP3 D2. Heavy Flamers are now 12", and Chain fists are now Sx2 AP4 D3
If this goes over to Custodes, I expect Sword and board to be hella good now. Slight nerf to Aquilons, but I'll take it for Primaris munching.
What Shield Hosts are everyone taking? Looking through them, there's nothing there I'd particularly want to take over the codex WTs and relics. I've just been going Solar Watch since their Stratagem is free and really bloody strong; in a game where CP and stratagems can make or break a game, a free strat that is basically just -1CP from your opponant per turn is great.
mrhappyface wrote: What Shield Hosts are everyone taking? Looking through them, there's nothing there I'd particularly want to take over the codex WTs and relics. I've just been going Solar Watch since their Stratagem is free and really bloody strong; in a game where CP and stratagems can make or break a game, a free strat that is basically just -1CP from your opponant per turn is great.
Opinions?
Shadowkeepers is arguably the strongest, because of the grim responsibility strat. It's a very strong defensive buff on top of the other already very good defensive strats we got in psychic awakening.
I personally like dread host the best, because I like to play a terminator captain with the relic axe. Also the dread host strat is very strong in my opinion especially when you combine it with a dreadnought (telemon) which has been buffed with the eternal penitent strat to give re roll charges. So when said dreadnought comes into play from deepstrike, it can charge with 3d6 drop the lowest dice and reroll those 3d6, which boosts the chance to make the charge from deepstrike considerably.
Dread host is objectively not the most competitive shield host though, because due to the smaller board size in 9th it has become easier to screen deepstriking unit out.
mrhappyface wrote: What Shield Hosts are everyone taking? Looking through them, there's nothing there I'd particularly want to take over the codex WTs and relics. I've just been going Solar Watch since their Stratagem is free and really bloody strong; in a game where CP and stratagems can make or break a game, a free strat that is basically just -1CP from your opponant per turn is great.
Opinions?
Shadowkeepers is arguably the strongest, because of the grim responsibility strat. It's a very strong defensive buff on top of the other already very good defensive strats we got in psychic awakening.
I personally like dread host the best, because I like to play a terminator captain with the relic axe. Also the dread host strat is very strong in my opinion especially when you combine it with a dreadnought (telemon) which has been buffed with the eternal penitent strat to give re roll charges. So when said dreadnought comes into play from deepstrike, it can charge with 3d6 drop the lowest dice and reroll those 3d6, which boosts the chance to make the charge from deepstrike considerably.
Dread host is objectively not the most competitive shield host though, because due to the smaller board size in 9th it has become easier to screen deepstriking unit out.
I would disagree. I would say Dread Host and Shadowkeepr are about tied. The -1S helps in some matchups but in, say, a Death Guard matchup (another very competitive faction), it doesn't do much for you. Most Death Guard lists will be striking at S7 or S8 (Blightlords + PBC's). Against your infantry, lowering that by 1 doesn't change anything. The weapons they have where it does matter already aren't that scary. Against Space Marines, however, the -1S might be very good. So it's a bit match-up dependent.
Dread Host might not be competitive if your goal is to land and immediately earn back their points by destroying a big, juicy, target, but it is good for objective flipping. You land, kill a sub 100 point chaff unit and immediately flip an objective. That can do a lot for primary scoring. Most reserves have an issue because they land T2, can't really charge and thus don't affect the game until T3 when it's more than half-over. Dread Host gets around that. You're safe from T1 shooting and having an effect T2.
mrhappyface wrote: What Shield Hosts are everyone taking? Looking through them, there's nothing there I'd particularly want to take over the codex WTs and relics. I've just been going Solar Watch since their Stratagem is free and really bloody strong; in a game where CP and stratagems can make or break a game, a free strat that is basically just -1CP from your opponant per turn is great.
Opinions?
Shadowkeepers is arguably the strongest, because of the grim responsibility strat. It's a very strong defensive buff on top of the other already very good defensive strats we got in psychic awakening.
I personally like dread host the best, because I like to play a terminator captain with the relic axe. Also the dread host strat is very strong in my opinion especially when you combine it with a dreadnought (telemon) which has been buffed with the eternal penitent strat to give re roll charges. So when said dreadnought comes into play from deepstrike, it can charge with 3d6 drop the lowest dice and reroll those 3d6, which boosts the chance to make the charge from deepstrike considerably.
Dread host is objectively not the most competitive shield host though, because due to the smaller board size in 9th it has become easier to screen deepstriking unit out.
I would disagree. I would say Dread Host and Shadowkeepr are about tied. The -1S helps in some matchups but in, say, a Death Guard matchup (another very competitive faction), it doesn't do much for you. Most Death Guard lists will be striking at S7 or S8 (Blightlords + PBC's). Against your infantry, lowering that by 1 doesn't change anything. The weapons they have where it does matter already aren't that scary. Against Space Marines, however, the -1S might be very good. So it's a bit match-up dependent.
Dread Host might not be competitive if your goal is to land and immediately earn back their points by destroying a big, juicy, target, but it is good for objective flipping. You land, kill a sub 100 point chaff unit and immediately flip an objective. That can do a lot for primary scoring. Most reserves have an issue because they land T2, can't really charge and thus don't affect the game until T3 when it's more than half-over. Dread Host gets around that. You're safe from T1 shooting and having an effect T2.
Thats a fair point about getting onto crucial objectives with the dread host deepstrike. I hadn't considered that when I wrote my initial reply. So yeah, you can't really go wrong with either of them, just consider your matchups.
I would like to recommend a new tactics thread be started. While a lot of the army hasn’t changed (even with PA and 9th), I feel like the new edition merits a new thread. Any takers?
mrhappyface wrote: What Shield Hosts are everyone taking? Looking through them, there's nothing there I'd particularly want to take over the codex WTs and relics. I've just been going Solar Watch since their Stratagem is free and really bloody strong; in a game where CP and stratagems can make or break a game, a free strat that is basically just -1CP from your opponant per turn is great.
Opinions?
All the Hosts are good, it's mostly about what appeals to you the most. Shadowkeepers are probably the best, Dread Host is good, but I'm in the camp that believes it's more of a trap. The deepstrike isn't as reliable as it appears, the WLT is ok, but we don't have that many attacks, so the exploding 6s are. not as great. The relic axe is neat, but you have to take a footcaptain, so it depends.
Aquilan shield is probably better than many people give it credit for and Emissaries feel like they will be better than they appear on paper. Solar Watch is obviously a great one too.
I played against SM recently and the Shadowkeepers strat did a lot of work to be honest. They are probably worth it just for that alone. I tried the wlt against TS before and if you want to make Unstoppable Destroyer character hunter, it can be a lot of fun If you can't decide, safest bet in my opinion are Shadowkeepers.
So it might be some time until we get our 9th Ed codex, but with the multimelta change let's assume for a second that GW is going to reevaluate our weapon profiles. What would you like to see?
Here would be my wishlist for our bog standard infantry weapons:
Sentinel blade: S user; AP - 3; D D3
Abilities: everytime the user fights, he can make d3 additional attacks with this weapon.
Guardian Spear:
Two profiles: each time the bearer fights he has to choose which weapon profile he uses
Profile 1
S user; AP - 2; D D3
Abilities: each time the bearer fights, count every attack the makes as 2 attacks
Profile2
S +2; AP - 3; D 2
Castellan Axe:
S +3; AP - 2; D 2
Abilities: in a turn in which the bearer has successfully charged, change the weapon profile to S x2; AP - 2; D D3+1
I think that would offer some interesting choices.
I would also give our standard guard units the following abilities to make them more interesting:
-when this unit still contains at least 3 custodian guard with storm shields, improve the save characteristic of this unit by 1 (not including invulnerable saves)
-when this unit still contains at least 3 custodian guard with guardian spears the unit always fights first in the fight phase, even if it was charged (when the enemy unit has the same ability the charging unit fights first)
Yeah, there is no way GW makes us more powerful than their beloved Primaris. Give up on the multiple profiles. I'd settle for just the +1s on our swords, and our axes to be like hammers. x2 strength with flat 4 damage. Give them some small benefit for the cost over the damn spears whixch get +1 to wound.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Yeah, there is no way GW makes us more powerful than their beloved Primaris. Give up on the multiple profiles. I'd settle for just the +1s on our swords, and our axes to be like hammers. x2 strength with flat 4 damage. Give them some small benefit for the cost over the damn spears whixch get +1 to wound.
Why not change the profiles in a more interesting way? It would give our boys their super elite status back and actually make them somewhat scary in a fight. I haven't given up hope that GW might do something interesting for once with our profiles.
Tiberias wrote: So it might be some time until we get our 9th Ed codex, but with the multimelta change let's assume for a second that GW is going to reevaluate our weapon profiles. What would you like to see?
Here would be my wishlist for our bog standard infantry weapons:
Sentinel blade: S user; AP - 3; D D3
Abilities: everytime the user fights, he can make d3 additional attacks with this weapon.
Guardian Spear:
Two profiles: each time the bearer fights he has to choose which weapon profile he uses
Profile 1
S user; AP - 2; D D3
Abilities: each time the bearer fights, count every attack the makes as 2 attacks
Profile2
S +2; AP - 3; D 2
Castellan Axe:
S +3; AP - 2; D 2
Abilities: in a turn in which the bearer has successfully charged, change the weapon profile to S x2; AP - 2; D D3+1
I think that would offer some interesting choices.
I would also give our standard guard units the following abilities to make them more interesting:
-when this unit still contains at least 3 custodian guard with storm shields, improve the save characteristic of this unit by 1 (not including invulnerable saves)
-when this unit still contains at least 3 custodian guard with guardian spears the unit always fights first in the fight phase, even if it was charged (when the enemy unit has the same ability the charging unit fights first)
realisticly i expect
spears:
shooting 30" -1AP 2dmg (marine bolters go to 30" if the leaks are correct)
melee +1S -3AP 2dmg +1 attack
Tiberias wrote: So it might be some time until we get our 9th Ed codex, but with the multimelta change let's assume for a second that GW is going to reevaluate our weapon profiles. What would you like to see?
Here would be my wishlist for our bog standard infantry weapons:
Sentinel blade: S user; AP - 3; D D3
Abilities: everytime the user fights, he can make d3 additional attacks with this weapon.
Guardian Spear:
Two profiles: each time the bearer fights he has to choose which weapon profile he uses
Profile 1
S user; AP - 2; D D3
Abilities: each time the bearer fights, count every attack the makes as 2 attacks
Profile2
S +2; AP - 3; D 2
Castellan Axe:
S +3; AP - 2; D 2
Abilities: in a turn in which the bearer has successfully charged, change the weapon profile to S x2; AP - 2; D D3+1
I think that would offer some interesting choices.
I would also give our standard guard units the following abilities to make them more interesting:
-when this unit still contains at least 3 custodian guard with storm shields, improve the save characteristic of this unit by 1 (not including invulnerable saves)
-when this unit still contains at least 3 custodian guard with guardian spears the unit always fights first in the fight phase, even if it was charged (when the enemy unit has the same ability the charging unit fights first)
realisticly i expect
spears:
shooting 30" -1AP 2dmg (marine bolters go to 30" if the leaks are correct)
melee +1S -3AP 2dmg +1 attack
it's really hard to increase the stats on the axe without making the relic axe useless. But the relics will probably also change.
In this case the blade would be waaay to strong, you would have absolutely no incentive to take a guardian spear, ever. With the blade having identical stats and the added benefit of being able to get a 3++ with a shield, the spear would just suck in comparison.
The way I set it up is so that every weapon can fulfill a certain role. Especially the guardian spear, which just isn't that good right now, but if you were to give it those two profiles it would be quite an interesting choice in my opinion because you have the flexibility of flat 2 damage with good strength, or lots of attacks with swingy damage and lower strength.
Differentiating the normal castellan axes from the relic would be easy in my opinion. In my suggestion they hit at better strength than the spear with worse AP, but on the charge they hit like a truck with S x2 and damage D3+1, which is as good as the spears flat 2 dmg with the added potential to take out a 4 wound obliterator with one swing.
The relic axe could just always be S x2; AP -3 and flat 3 dmg, not just on the charge. That is a smaller buff, but would it would still be a very reliable beatstick weapon.
Tiberias wrote: So it might be some time until we get our 9th Ed codex, but with the multimelta change let's assume for a second that GW is going to reevaluate our weapon profiles. What would you like to see?
Here would be my wishlist for our bog standard infantry weapons:
Sentinel blade: S user; AP - 3; D D3
Abilities: everytime the user fights, he can make d3 additional attacks with this weapon.
Guardian Spear:
Two profiles: each time the bearer fights he has to choose which weapon profile he uses
Profile 1
S user; AP - 2; D D3
Abilities: each time the bearer fights, count every attack the makes as 2 attacks
Profile2
S +2; AP - 3; D 2
Castellan Axe:
S +3; AP - 2; D 2
Abilities: in a turn in which the bearer has successfully charged, change the weapon profile to S x2; AP - 2; D D3+1
I think that would offer some interesting choices.
I would also give our standard guard units the following abilities to make them more interesting:
-when this unit still contains at least 3 custodian guard with storm shields, improve the save characteristic of this unit by 1 (not including invulnerable saves)
-when this unit still contains at least 3 custodian guard with guardian spears the unit always fights first in the fight phase, even if it was charged (when the enemy unit has the same ability the charging unit fights first)
realisticly i expect
spears:
shooting 30" -1AP 2dmg (marine bolters go to 30" if the leaks are correct)
melee +1S -3AP 2dmg +1 attack
it's really hard to increase the stats on the axe without making the relic axe useless. But the relics will probably also change.
In this case the blade would be waaay to strong, you would have absolutely no incentive to take a guardian spear, ever. With the blade having identical stats and the added benefit of being able to get a 3++ with a shield, the spear would just suck in comparison.
The way I set it up is so that every weapon can fulfill a certain role. Especially the guardian spear, which just isn't that good right now, but if you were to give it those two profiles it would be quite an interesting choice in my opinion because you have the flexibility of flat 2 damage with good strength, or lots of attacks with swingy damage and lower strength.
Differentiating the normal castellan axes from the relic would be easy in my opinion. In my suggestion they hit at better strength than the spear with worse AP, but on the charge they hit like a truck with S x2 and damage D3+1, which is as good as the spears flat 2 dmg with the added potential to take out a 4 wound obliterator with one swing.
The relic axe could just always be S x2; AP -3 and flat 3 dmg, not just on the charge. That is a smaller buff, but would it would still be a very reliable beatstick weapon.
The changes you are proposing would be nice but they are not going to happen. I think the changes i posted are more likely to happen.
The real issue with the stats inflation is, if they to it codex by codex armys will drop down in the power ranking. custodes for example will become mid tier or low tier but armies that are weak now will become unplayble.
Ended up running my Custodes using the Shadowkeeper Shield Host vs Marines at 1750 yesterday.
Using a 5 man squad (3 salvo/2 Hurricane) with a shield captain (salvo) i was able to cripple a repulsor (left 1 darn wound on it.) using Archeotech munitions.
They then weathered the return fire on that flank with Emperor's Auspice and Grim Responsibility, losing 1 hurricane bike.
They're rock solid for the purposes of pinning your opponent deep in their deployment zone.
I am completely sold on the salvo launchers at this point as marines get more prevalent, with a hurricane bolt bike or two to soak damage. They were later on very useful rooting out eliminators in cover.
Got a very important question for a game I'm about to play.
Vexilla teleport homer vs alpha legion stratagem 'scrambled coordinates'
vexilla homer is used 'at the end of the phase, when you set up a teleporting ADEPTUS CUSTODES unit from reserve' obviously within 6" and 3" away from an enemy.
The AL strat is used 'simultaneously' (end of enemy movement phase, as a unit is set up) and disallows deep strike within 12".
which trumps in this interaction? I'll pop it in YMDC as well.
If they both happen at the same time, on your turn, sequencing should control. Your turn, your choice. You teleport homer first so the unit is already landed and then let AL's strat fizzle.
I've recently read a FAQ excerpt from 8th ed on reddit that specifically addressed this question and said that the ability inhibiting deepstrike always takes precedence.
I don't have the link to that FAQ right now, but there is definitely one that addresses this question specifically
Tiberias wrote: I've recently read a FAQ excerpt from 8th ed on reddit that specifically addressed this question and said that the ability inhibiting deepstrike always takes precedence.
I don't have the link to that FAQ right now, but there is definitely one that addresses this question specifically
Ooo, that reminds me.
Do all the FAQs and erratas from 8th ed still count for the 9th ed core rules? Me and a mate were discussing and decided we'd continue to use the 8th ed rulings on everything.
Tiberias wrote: I've recently read a FAQ excerpt from 8th ed on reddit that specifically addressed this question and said that the ability inhibiting deepstrike always takes precedence.
I don't have the link to that FAQ right now, but there is definitely one that addresses this question specifically
Ooo, that reminds me.
Do all the FAQs and erratas from 8th ed still count for the 9th ed core rules? Me and a mate were discussing and decided we'd continue to use the 8th ed rulings on everything.
Technically, 8th edition FAQ's are advisory. It's prooooobably how GW will rule again but it's not technically 9th so it's not technically binding.
That said, even as a fairly strong RAW-advocate, I follow the 8th FAQ's for 9th questions.
Tiberias wrote: I've recently read a FAQ excerpt from 8th ed on reddit that specifically addressed this question and said that the ability inhibiting deepstrike always takes precedence.
I don't have the link to that FAQ right now, but there is definitely one that addresses this question specifically
Ooo, that reminds me.
Do all the FAQs and erratas from 8th ed still count for the 9th ed core rules? Me and a mate were discussing and decided we'd continue to use the 8th ed rulings on everything.
Technically, 8th edition FAQ's are advisory. It's prooooobably how GW will rule again but it's not technically 9th so it's not technically binding.
That said, even as a fairly strong RAW-advocate, I follow the 8th FAQ's for 9th questions.
From what I know, all of the FAQ'd stuff that was done in 8th was carried over to the newer 9th edition FAQs. So therefore anything not mentioned in FAQs for books which have a 9th edition FAQ is surely not a ruling anymore.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Audustum wrote: If they both happen at the same time, on your turn, sequencing should control. Your turn, your choice. You teleport homer first so the unit is already landed and then let AL's strat fizzle.
And in reference to this post, here is the YMDC thread which has a seemingly clear resolution. I think I will email the rules team and ask for clarification/an FAQ.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/791066.page tl;dr alpha legion stratagem changes the 9" deepstrike to a 12" from AL units, while the vexilla homer does not state 9" anywhere therefore the teleport homer trump's (AL strategem is inapplicable)
Wow, compared to what they've previewed for changes of space marine weapons... custodes CC stuff looks like gak. Like really bad. And that makes me sad.
stratigo wrote: Wow, compared to what they've previewed for changes of space marine weapons... custodes CC stuff looks like gak. Like really bad. And that makes me sad.
Hopefully Custodes get a similar buff in their codex. But you know what they say about Hope...
Tiberias wrote: I've recently read a FAQ excerpt from 8th ed on reddit that specifically addressed this question and said that the ability inhibiting deepstrike always takes precedence.
I don't have the link to that FAQ right now, but there is definitely one that addresses this question specifically
Ooo, that reminds me.
Do all the FAQs and erratas from 8th ed still count for the 9th ed core rules? Me and a mate were discussing and decided we'd continue to use the 8th ed rulings on everything.
Technically, 8th edition FAQ's are advisory. It's prooooobably how GW will rule again but it's not technically 9th so it's not technically binding.
That said, even as a fairly strong RAW-advocate, I follow the 8th FAQ's for 9th questions.
So, as an example, Captain Commander - Strategic Mastermind: in 8th ed we'd only be able to gain back 1CP per turn due to tactical restraint, is this still in place or can we regen as many CP as we want now?
Tiberias wrote: I've recently read a FAQ excerpt from 8th ed on reddit that specifically addressed this question and said that the ability inhibiting deepstrike always takes precedence.
I don't have the link to that FAQ right now, but there is definitely one that addresses this question specifically
Ooo, that reminds me.
Do all the FAQs and erratas from 8th ed still count for the 9th ed core rules? Me and a mate were discussing and decided we'd continue to use the 8th ed rulings on everything.
Technically, 8th edition FAQ's are advisory. It's prooooobably how GW will rule again but it's not technically 9th so it's not technically binding.
That said, even as a fairly strong RAW-advocate, I follow the 8th FAQ's for 9th questions.
So, as an example, Captain Commander - Strategic Mastermind: in 8th ed we'd only be able to gain back 1CP per turn due to tactical restraint, is this still in place or can we regen as many CP as we want now?
That rule has been incorporated into the main rules, see the command points section.
stratigo wrote: Wow, compared to what they've previewed for changes of space marine weapons... custodes CC stuff looks like gak. Like really bad. And that makes me sad.
Hopefully Custodes get a similar buff in their codex. But you know what they say about Hope...
Hope and belief in the emperor is what carries our army!
But seriously, our CC is hopefully going to get buffed a little.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wait.... gak gets converted to gak? Damn I thought it was just everyone using that term
Tiberias wrote: I've recently read a FAQ excerpt from 8th ed on reddit that specifically addressed this question and said that the ability inhibiting deepstrike always takes precedence.
I don't have the link to that FAQ right now, but there is definitely one that addresses this question specifically
Ooo, that reminds me.
Do all the FAQs and erratas from 8th ed still count for the 9th ed core rules? Me and a mate were discussing and decided we'd continue to use the 8th ed rulings on everything.
Technically, 8th edition FAQ's are advisory. It's prooooobably how GW will rule again but it's not technically 9th so it's not technically binding.
That said, even as a fairly strong RAW-advocate, I follow the 8th FAQ's for 9th questions.
So, as an example, Captain Commander - Strategic Mastermind: in 8th ed we'd only be able to gain back 1CP per turn due to tactical restraint, is this still in place or can we regen as many CP as we want now?
Abilities like the Captain Commander option that net you CP are capped at 1 per turn. However, strats that net you CP, such as Priority Threat Neutralized for an Assassin is not affected by the cap, as per the recent FAQ.
Not to sound out of sorts here, but if they let marines go live hitting harder in melee than dedicated melee classes, I might as well sell my still in box minis. What is the point of building all 4 boxes of bikes and terminators if they get out swung by basic level marines. This is just silly. I am struggling to understand what the incentive is to make a single faction so ungodly op? More people are buying non-SM than SM.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Not to sound out of sorts here, but if they let marines go live hitting harder in melee than dedicated melee classes, I might as well sell my still in box minis. What is the point of building all 4 boxes of bikes and terminators if they get out swung by basic level marines. This is just silly. I am struggling to understand what the incentive is to make a single faction so ungodly op? More people are buying non-SM than SM.
Sorry, I'm not caught up, besides the slight changes to melee weapons, what's making marines better than Custodes in cc?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Not to sound out of sorts here, but if they let marines go live hitting harder in melee than dedicated melee classes, I might as well sell my still in box minis. What is the point of building all 4 boxes of bikes and terminators if they get out swung by basic level marines. This is just silly. I am struggling to understand what the incentive is to make a single faction so ungodly op? More people are buying non-SM than SM.
Sorry, I'm not caught up, besides the slight changes to melee weapons, what's making marines better than Custodes in cc?
They seem to be giving marines a flat across the board set of buffs. Plus 1 str on powerswords takes away one of the utilities of, like, the guardian spear. Everything is getting AP, further devaluing having a good save. And HBs are going to 2 damage.
But the big thing is thunderhammers IMHO. On of the saving graces of Custodes elite units (termies and bikes) is that they had 1 more wound then a thunder hammer could one shot (barring a couple of tricked out slam captains that paid out the nose in CP for the privilege). Now any slam captain will trivially attrition down a squad of terminators by about 4 or more, providing marines with a rather big hard counter to custode's primary tool in this new edition.
Also, death guard getting 2 wounds is going to make fighting plague marine infuriating. Like truly the worst.
Yeah... Death guard. That is going to suck some major ass.
And on the thunder hammers point, here's hoping we go up a wound across the board bois But seriously this is also going to suck. The worst part is that even if you price thunder hammers at about 50 points per character they are still worth it. I hate it.
While it's wrong that marines hitting in combat will be better than us (aside from specific situations where they're better regardless), it is about time we see some upgrades to our melee. Most importantly A FLAT DAMAGE VALUEE. Because while I might be able to roll saves, the number of times a character has survived with a wound because I roll triple 1 on d3... Agh.
I don't think that custodes should be made tougher per se just yet, it might be sensible (if it is needed) if they end up absorbing their 6+++ in the psychic into their basic statline. This would massively increase their durability due to the ability to negate damage spilling over if you pass 1 each time you roll. This would probably up the cost considerably of every custodian however and probably have us starting with 1 or even 2 less models
Aside from that, some upgrades to our combat consistency across the board could be nice. While an extra attack would do this, I feel like this would be buffing the damage potential of custodes too far, which would be wrong especially when paired with +1A banner. So as I mentioned earlier, getting some flat dmg on weapons feels right.
Ps buff valoris to flat 3dmg !!! That boy embarasses himself whenever he charges something with more than 1W.
Just because this was the point of discussion recently, I had a friendly game against space wolves who brought Wulfen, again.
This time tough I brought a 4man squad of venatari in anticipation of his Wulfen. He deployed the Wulfen just a bit too aggressively and I was able too shoot them first turn with the venatari and they severely crippled the Wulfen squad by killing 3 out of 5. Which really isn't bad in my book (was just a 1000point game so no huge units of either Wulfen or venatari).
A sqaud of Wulfen without a priest is just a dead squad of wulfen. Also, I think if a space marine is going to hit for flat 4 damage with a damn thunder hammer, or a flat 3 damage with a relic sword, then Our axes and spears should be 4/3 respectively. Our swords should be flat S+2 with AP3 and D2. Unfortunately, we are likely not going to get any buffs, because we are a FW heavy faction, and this is GW flooding the market with FW like statted minis, to drown out the market of non-plastic models. This is GW heavy swinging back in the opposite direction. over compensating. We don't sell many models for GW, and those we do are relatively small potatoes. We don't have any expensive models by GW. We don't have (For instance) Baneblades, knights, Daemon Primarchs, or 150+ dollar model kits that GW can push hard. We won't be seeing anything until they come around on the codex, and even then, unless they severely Primaris-ize the Custodes plot fluff, we won't be seeing anything major.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: A sqaud of Wulfen without a priest is just a dead squad of wulfen. Also, I think if a space marine is going to hit for flat 4 damage with a damn thunder hammer, or a flat 3 damage with a relic sword, then Our axes and spears should be 4/3 respectively. Our swords should be flat S+2 with AP3 and D2. Unfortunately, we are likely not going to get any buffs, because we are a FW heavy faction, and this is GW flooding the market with FW like statted minis, to drown out the market of non-plastic models. This is GW heavy swinging back in the opposite direction. over compensating. We don't sell many models for GW, and those we do are relatively small potatoes. We don't have any expensive models by GW. We don't have (For instance) Baneblades, knights, Daemon Primarchs, or 150+ dollar model kits that GW can push hard. We won't be seeing anything until they come around on the codex, and even then, unless they severely Primaris-ize the Custodes plot fluff, we won't be seeing anything major.
Sorry mate, but this is pure hyperbole. I would argue that custodes sell quite well, especially now where many tactics channels on YouTube habe hailed them as the new hotness in 9th, a LOT of people are jumping on the golden bandwagon right now.
As for new rules, just wait man...if we really get absolutely nothing compared to space marines you are free to say I told you so, but until then there is hoping that we get some interesting stuff.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Also, I think if a space marine is going to hit for flat 4 damage with a damn thunder hammer, or a flat 3 damage with a relic sword, then Our axes and spears should be 4/3 respectively. Our swords should be flat S+2 with AP3 and D2.
Do you want 15 point Sentinel Blades, 20 point Spears and 25 point Axes? Because thats what the point equivalents for what you're demanding are going to be, if not more.
Im as sick of endless marine upgrades as anyone, but you're being absurdly unrealistic. The units that can actually take the upgraded weapons en masse (IE: arent paying 40 points a model for a Thunder Hammer) are S4 with a WS of 3+, barring hyper-specialized edge cases.
Demanding S7 / S8 with 2/3/4 flat damage on the basic melee profiles across an entire army is a ludicrous position to take.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Also, I think if a space marine is going to hit for flat 4 damage with a damn thunder hammer, or a flat 3 damage with a relic sword, then Our axes and spears should be 4/3 respectively. Our swords should be flat S+2 with AP3 and D2.
Do you want 15 point Sentinel Blades, 20 point Spears and 25 point Axes? Because thats what the point equivalents for what you're demanding are going to be, if not more.
Im as sick of endless marine upgrades as anyone, but you're being absurdly unrealistic. The units that can actually take the upgraded weapons en masse (IE: arent paying 40 points a model for a Thunder Hammer) are S4 with a WS of 3+, barring hyper-specialized edge cases.
Demanding S7 / S8 with 2/3/4 flat damage on the basic melee profiles across an entire army is a ludicrous position to take.
While I generally agree with you I understand the frustration at the ongoing stat increase of space marines.
There are other ways to boost weapon profiles instead of just continuing to slap additional Ap and dmg on the profile.
I suggested altered profiles for our melee weapons on the previous page of this thread:
Spoiler:
Sentinel blade: S user; AP - 3; D D3
Abilities: everytime the user fights, he can make d3 additional attacks with this weapon.
Guardian Spear:
Two profiles: each time the bearer fights he has to choose which weapon profile he uses
Profile 1
S user; AP - 2; D D3
Abilities: each time the bearer fights, count every attack the makes as 2 attacks
Profile2
S +2; AP - 3; D 2
Castellan Axe:
S +3; AP - 2; D 2
Abilities: in a turn in which the bearer has successfully charged, change the weapon profile to S x2; AP - 2; D D3+1
I think that would offer some interesting choices.
I would also give our standard guard units the following abilities to make them more interesting:
-when this unit still contains at least 3 custodian guard with storm shields, improve the save characteristic of this unit by 1 (not including invulnerable saves)
-when this unit still contains at least 3 custodian guard with guardian spears the unit always fights first in the fight phase, even if it was charged (when the enemy unit has the same ability the charging unit fights first)
And while I adjusted the dmg, the main way forward to make especially melee armies with low model counts interesting and on par with space marines, is to work with extra abilities and multiple profiles for the weapons, that other non-elite armies don't have access to.
This way you can make the faction, in this example custodes, more interesting and unique. And provide meaningful and interesting choices.
This is also the main thing I feel nobody is really talking about. Everybody is complaining that space marines are OP and get constant buffs, so everybody calls for their faction to get similar buffs to be in line with space marines.
The problem in the long run with this stat inflation will inevitably be though, that different factions and units will feel less and less special and distinct from one another. This thing started with the introduction of a fixed to-hit WS stat and the removal of the initiative stat and is only exacerbated by all those new releases that constantly buff weapon stats and profiles on a D6 system. You lose granularity, which is crucial for a game with that many interesting and unique factions.
We are not getting WS values and a comparison chart or the initiative stat back, that ship has sailed with the dawn of 8th ed. So the only way forward in my opinion, especially for melee armies like custodes or harlequins, is to give them interesting special abilities on their weapons that make up for their low model count and also provide interesting options and some form of flexibility, because you can't inflate stats infinitely or you will end up with a custodian guard that costs 100points and has S6, T6 and 5-6 wounds.....it does not work on a D6 system and with stat limitations from 1-10.
Tiberias wrote: We are not getting WS values and a comparison chart or the initiative stat back, that ship has sailed with the dawn of 8th ed. So the only way forward in my opinion, especially for melee armies like custodes or harlequins, is to give them interesting special abilities on their weapons that make up for their low model count and also provide interesting options and some form of flexibility, because you can't inflate stats infinitely or you will end up with a custodian guard that costs 100points and has S6, T6 and 5-6 wounds.....it does not work on a D6 system and with stat limitations from 1-10.
Thing is, alot of Custodes players WOULD like that profile. Look at how many of our posters cross-post in the IK and GK threads...we want to play an elite army, and are willing to pay the points for it to feel like that. Custodes fluffwise are to space marines what space marines are to guardsmen, the least I want is that same relationship on the tabletop.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: A sqaud of Wulfen without a priest is just a dead squad of wulfen. Also, I think if a space marine is going to hit for flat 4 damage with a damn thunder hammer, or a flat 3 damage with a relic sword, then Our axes and spears should be 4/3 respectively. Our swords should be flat S+2 with AP3 and D2. Unfortunately, we are likely not going to get any buffs, because we are a FW heavy faction, and this is GW flooding the market with FW like statted minis, to drown out the market of non-plastic models. This is GW heavy swinging back in the opposite direction. over compensating. We don't sell many models for GW, and those we do are relatively small potatoes. We don't have any expensive models by GW. We don't have (For instance) Baneblades, knights, Daemon Primarchs, or 150+ dollar model kits that GW can push hard. We won't be seeing anything until they come around on the codex, and even then, unless they severely Primaris-ize the Custodes plot fluff, we won't be seeing anything major.
Sorry mate, but this is pure hyperbole. I would argue that custodes sell quite well, especially now where many tactics channels on YouTube habe hailed them as the new hotness in 9th, a LOT of people are jumping on the golden bandwagon right now.
As for new rules, just wait man...if we really get absolutely nothing compared to space marines you are free to say I told you so, but until then there is hoping that we get some interesting stuff.
Custodes weapons need, at the least, fixed damage profiles. And the axes should get damage 3 in my opinion.
First off good look and have fun on your tourney. As for your list: dread host is strong, and bike captains are always strong and will definitely do much work for you.
Custodian guard with spear are fine, though the storm shield and sentinel blade configuration is considered better right now, because objective holding is so crucial in 9th and the guards with the storm shields are considerably harder to shift.
Also if you go dread host and want a strong hard hitting unit to deepstrike, allarus or aquilon terminators are going to be more consistent at deleting whatever they reach than a squad of spear custodians. They are also a bit more survivable with the new strats.
Sisters of silence I personally would not take unless I expect a very psyker heavy meta. So depending on your local meta they might be worth their points.
That's my honest take. So welcome to the golden boys and have fun.
Can choose to ds the 9 guard, and 3d6 charge them for 2 cp total
Can shoot them twice, +1 to wound in melee, 1cp each
Can fire the 10 persecturos as assault 3 for 30 s4 shots, rerolling wounds against psyker units
List is locked in
Thoughts?
Otherwise, that 5 woman squad looks good for holding a backfield, and the 9 woman squad perhaps as a midfield holder.
Its a little late for it, but i'd have suggested splitting your 9 man squad into a 4 and 5 man squad, or 2 4 man squads with some shields for board control and durability. Looks fun, good luck and let us know how it goes!
Is there are reason you took all-seeing annihilator and unstoppable destroyer? I would have thought taking the -1 to hit WLT and the CP regen upgrade would be better?
mrhappyface wrote:Is there are reason you took all-seeing annihilator and unstoppable destroyer? I would have thought taking the -1 to hit WLT and the CP regen upgrade would be better?
Hello, yes.
1) My thinking is since use 3-4(or even -6) of my 6 CP pre-game, there is little use for the 5+ cp regen.
2) As to the -1 to hit, I don't know if it's better than the 3+ invu! I figured terrain might help in some cases.
3) As to all-seeing annihilator, it pairs with my big unit of guardians. They are all in one unit to be buffed with +1 to wound, double shooting, 3d6 charge from strat, reroll 1s and exploding 6's from dawneagle
4) unstoppable destroyer i thought would be nice to go in, hit a dangerous melee unit, and get out before they can strike back. Example knight, demon prince, some of the new skorpekh destroyers etc
Thoughts? I have no strong opinions on any of this
iGuy91 wrote:
dicerage wrote: New stodes player, trying this at a local 1k pts tourney:
Can choose to ds the 9 guard, and 3d6 charge them for 2 cp total
Can shoot them twice, +1 to wound in melee, 1cp each
Can fire the 10 persecturos as assault 3 for 30 s4 shots, rerolling wounds against psyker units
List is locked in
Thoughts?
Otherwise, that 5 woman squad looks good for holding a backfield, and the 9 woman squad perhaps as a midfield holder.
Its a little late for it, but i'd have suggested splitting your 9 man squad into a 4 and 5 man squad, or 2 4 man squads with some shields for board control and durability. Looks fun, good luck and let us know how it goes!
Thank you for the feedback.
1)Yes I'm thinking exactly that with the two woman squads, and again the 10 man can be buffed for 1 cp to fire 30 shots at 18", and for another 1cp can be buffed to reroll all hits if a nearby stodes unit attacked first. So against psykers where there are automatic rerolls, like 1k sons and gk and nid monsters etc, maybe they can be worthwhile, I don't know.
2) As to splitting the squads, yes, I think you are right. I went with one 9 man squad for the strategem buffs + dawneagle buffs (see post above) and dread host for the deep strike 3d6 hammer charge. But upon reflection, I would go solar watch, and either as you say 4/5man, or even 3/3/3 man. As well as 5/5/5 for the sisters of silence as well.
We'll see!
Tiberias wrote:First off good look and have fun on your tourney. As for your list: dread host is strong, and bike captains are always strong and will definitely do much work for you.
Custodian guard with spear are fine, though the storm shield and sentinel blade configuration is considered better right now, because objective holding is so crucial in 9th and the guards with the storm shields are considerably harder to shift.
Also if you go dread host and want a strong hard hitting unit to deepstrike, allarus or aquilon terminators are going to be more consistent at deleting whatever they reach than a squad of spear custodians. They are also a bit more survivable with the new strats.
Sisters of silence I personally would not take unless I expect a very psyker heavy meta. So depending on your local meta they might be worth their points.
That's my honest take. So welcome to the golden boys and have fun.
Thanks, I think you make very good points. Only thing I have to say is that Allarus are sold out everywhere! My ideal list looks like this:
How is it hyperbole to state that right now, Vanguard Vets outhit and cost less than the nearest comparable Custodes Models?
Stat wise, our BEST unit is either out bikes or our Telemons. Both cost WAY more than a full squad of Vanguard Vets with Thunder hammers and 2w each. How is that hyperbole? Marines go live right now with an unprecedented edge.
Not since the Tau of 7th has there been this level of cheese in a faction.
And to the "People are flocking to the golden bandwagon" argument. BS.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: How is it hyperbole to state that right now, Vanguard Vets outhit and cost less than the nearest comparable Custodes Models?
Because it's not true. A five man team of VanVets with hammers and shields are the same cost as four basic Custodians with Spear (roughly, there's some uncertainty as to whether non-Tac units are going to see a greater cost increase given their increased ability sets). The Hammer Vets do better against heavy armor, but are comparable to the Custodians against mid-toughness targets, and fall faaaaaaaar behind against infantry. The former also dies in spades to massed AP0/AP1 fire, which custodians shrug off with their T5 and innate 2+, and has zero function if they are prevented from making their charge.
The equation swings considerably towards Custodes when you look at say, four Wardens with Axes instead (which come in slightly more expensive than a five pack of VanHammers, but still within the expected MoE of the 2W bump cost).
Wait till the marine book is actually out, complain about its brokenness when its actually broken and you know what the rules and more importantly the points are.
I think people are deluding themselves if they think that multimeltas will double in shots, hammer will hit harder and everything will have more wounds without appropriate point increases.
Personally I think it is part of an overall plan to up the wounds of tougher things to create more design space for weaker units. They seem to be increasing the damage of various weapons as well to give them a more defined anti elite roll at the same time.
If this is the approach GW is taking i would expect Custode to get similar buffs (and pts increases) to keep them in line.
Why is it literally every time GW creates an utterly game breaking unit (Castellan, Iron Hands Leviathan lists, Riptides, Conscript deathstars, etc.) There is an equally vocal contingent that says "It's not broken, we need to wait and see how it plays on tournament lists before nerfing it." and almost without fail, it's the same people who cry what a terrible shame it was when the offending tactic/unit is inevitably nerfed into oblivion? How many people claimed the Castellen was not broken, that Iron hands were just fine, and that a good player could overcome a triptide list?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Why is it literally every time GW creates an utterly game breaking unit (Castellan, Iron Hands Leviathan lists, Riptides, Conscript deathstars, etc.) There is an equally vocal contingent that says "It's not broken, we need to wait and see how it plays on tournament lists before nerfing it." and almost without fail, it's the same people who cry what a terrible shame it was when the offending tactic/unit is inevitably nerfed into oblivion? How many people claimed the Castellen was not broken, that Iron hands were just fine, and that a good player could overcome a triptide list?
You mean like how its the same people who routinely make histrionic assertions about how particular things do or do not function, and when called on how their hysterics arent grounded in reality drive right into another exuberant rant?
We dont have 9th edition rules for any army right now, with the exception of a handful of Marine or Necron units. Stomping around and making blanket statements about how everything is broken when we quite literally do not know what is happening with every army in the game is not productive.
So i have a fun allegorical story from a game recently to share.
I was playing vs Space Marines and used a Shield Captain with 'Gatekeeper', plus the Superior Firing Patterns Stratagem to make him rapid fire 6 on his spear (base is rapid fire 3), and mow down half a squad of assault intercessors by himself before charging, and mowing down the rest in melee +morale. So that was cool, and is a neat little synergy to bully marines off objectives.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Why is it literally every time GW creates an utterly game breaking unit (Castellan, Iron Hands Leviathan lists, Riptides, Conscript deathstars, etc.) There is an equally vocal contingent that says "It's not broken, we need to wait and see how it plays on tournament lists before nerfing it." and almost without fail, it's the same people who cry what a terrible shame it was when the offending tactic/unit is inevitably nerfed into oblivion? How many people claimed the Castellen was not broken, that Iron hands were just fine, and that a good player could overcome a triptide list?
You mean like how its the same people who routinely make histrionic assertions about how particular things do or do not function, and when called on how their hysterics arent grounded in reality drive right into another exuberant rant?
We dont have 9th edition rules for any army right now, with the exception of a handful of Marine or Necron units. Stomping around and making blanket statements about how everything is broken when we quite literally do not know what is happening with every army in the game is not productive.
Part of the issue is, how long will it be until all armies get updated?
Sure, Orks might be top-tier with their new Dex... but if that doesn't come out for two years, fat lot of good that does any Ork players for now.
JNAProductions wrote: Part of the issue is, how long will it be until all armies get updated?
Sure, Orks might be top-tier with their new Dex... but if that doesn't come out for two years, fat lot of good that does any Ork players for now.
As someone who plays several armies that fall into that category, I understand and agree unreservedly. Piecemeal codex rollout is a major concern of mine across the board, and something GW has absolutely gotten wrong in the past.
Played a game yesterday taking a old-fashioned leadblower list. Spearhead detachment. Trajan, -1 banner, 4 aquilon 1 Pallas and 3 Caladius tanks, plus 2 Telemons with storm cannons (1 had a fist). Almost tabled an admech player; he went first and didn’t shoot much while I pummeled his units the whole game with invincible terminators holding the middle. It was my opponent’s first game of 9th, but he had a pretty decent admech list.
Good to see that some of the old staples still have play, in particular I think the accelerator cannons add a lot of value as a generalist ranged weapon.
I have been wracking my brain to try and create a kit bash callidus, and I think the impulsor with the predator dual lascannon turret do a respectable job, I can't find a good kit bash for the storm cannons though.
dicerage wrote: Feeling more and more stupid about my choice to take a 9 man unit of guardians to a 1k tournament.
Unless the mission secondary is one of those score big X for holding enemy objective (and a lot of them are), I'm in trub.
Gonna hold the feth out of at least one objective though.
Don't feel stupid, are there arguably better options? Sure. But as you said your list is locked and you gotta work with what you have now.
Also a 9 man squad of spears deepstriking in and potentially making a charge with the 3d6 dread host strat is still quite strong.
Keep the sisters on some backfield objectives in cover and use your bike captains to bully your opponent. At 1000 points the bike captains are exceptionally hard to kill.
If you try to go for a charge from deepstrike with your 9man spear squad, use the dreadhost strat to increase the odds of success and try to keep your bike captain with the all seeing annihilatior trait in range of them to benefit from the exploding 6s to hit. This way at 1000 points they are going to delete most things they reach anyway. Don't forget the +1 to wound strat against dreadnoughts and other high toughness stuff and that squad 9man squad will so some work for you.
dicerage wrote: Feeling more and more stupid about my choice to take a 9 man unit of guardians to a 1k tournament.
Unless the mission secondary is one of those score big X for holding enemy objective (and a lot of them are), I'm in trub.
Gonna hold the feth out of at least one objective though.
Don’t feel stupid. There haven’t been nearly enough consistent tournaments to know what the “best” list is. There have been a few examples, but at this point almost everything is confirmation bias because literally everyone is running what the pre-9th preview play testers/and YouTube channels said they thought was good. At Flying Monkey Con this past weekend every Custodes player ran pretty much the same list, and finished everywhere from 6th place to 2-4.
So if anything, you’re doing the community a favor by breaking the mold a little bit. Let us know how it goes, and don’t be afraid to keep experimenting!
Anyone have any advice for running against TSons lists running magnus at 1500 points? I dont have any super long range FW firepower, and feel like SoS will be murdered turn 1 by all the non basic Rubric weapons. I'm just not quite sure how to survive even past T3 with D6 mortal wounds coming from one big model.
th3proj3ct wrote: Anyone have any advice for running against TSons lists running magnus at 1500 points? I dont have any super long range FW firepower, and feel like SoS will be murdered turn 1 by all the non basic Rubric weapons. I'm just not quite sure how to survive even past T3 with D6 mortal wounds coming from one big model.
Don't know about the whole list but you could maybe deal with Magnus using a melee Dreadnought, use the half damage strat and Magnus will only do 1 damage per wound.
th3proj3ct wrote: Anyone have any advice for running against TSons lists running magnus at 1500 points? I dont have any super long range FW firepower, and feel like SoS will be murdered turn 1 by all the non basic Rubric weapons. I'm just not quite sure how to survive even past T3 with D6 mortal wounds coming from one big model.
The obvious answer would be to take a Cullexus, plus remember that you can cancel that Smite on a 4+ with your Custodes stratagem.
The psychic focus smite nerf really stomped smite heavy armies like GK and TS. Word is still out if that will change in a new FAQ but GW has said it was a mistake and it will change back.
Question - Does anyone know if rules were ever released to allow people to USE Valerian and Aleya in a game? Or are they still some kind of weird hybrid that isn't an HQ, and can't be brought in a game?
iGuy91 wrote: Question - Does anyone know if rules were ever released to allow people to USE Valerian and Aleya in a game? Or are they still some kind of weird hybrid that isn't an HQ, and can't be brought in a game?
From what I know, they can be used in any IMPERIUM detachment without breaching the detachment keyword. Similar to how inquisitors work, but can be used as well as them.
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th3proj3ct wrote: Anyone have any advice for running against TSons lists running magnus at 1500 points? I dont have any super long range FW firepower, and feel like SoS will be murdered turn 1 by all the non basic Rubric weapons. I'm just not quite sure how to survive even past T3 with D6 mortal wounds coming from one big model.
Use a culexus as someone already mentioned, and try and get a squad of termies/bikes charged into him. A squad of 5 should put some serious hurt on him in 1 round, and because they have 4W each he doesn't kill too many in return in combat.
The MW are definitely a problem. Magnus is never a good matchup for us, we aren't equipped to delete him off the table.
There was a good video by Table Top Titans, where he showed bolter bikes as nearly taking him out in a single turn. Granted they needed to make a pretty ugly charge, and literally everything has to go right with character rules, but Bikes can drop him in one turn, theoretically.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: The psychic focus smite nerf really stomped smite heavy armies like GK and TS. Word is still out if that will change in a new FAQ but GW has said it was a mistake and it will change back.
I've heard quite the opposite, that Tsons and GK having psychic focus removed was completely intentional.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: The psychic focus smite nerf really stomped smite heavy armies like GK and TS. Word is still out if that will change in a new FAQ but GW has said it was a mistake and it will change back.
I've heard quite the opposite, that Tsons and GK having psychic focus removed was completely intentional.
GW have clearly stated it was intentional and they willl not be adding it back in the GKFAQ:
But hey, Facebook rumors are more reliable than GW's own word right?
th3proj3ct wrote: Anyone have any advice for running against TSons lists running magnus at 1500 points? I dont have any super long range FW firepower, and feel like SoS will be murdered turn 1 by all the non basic Rubric weapons. I'm just not quite sure how to survive even past T3 with D6 mortal wounds coming from one big model.
Don't know about the whole list but you could maybe deal with Magnus using a melee Dreadnought, use the half damage strat and Magnus will only do 1 damage per wound.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: How is it hyperbole to state that right now, Vanguard Vets outhit and cost less than the nearest comparable Custodes Models?
Stat wise, our BEST unit is either out bikes or our Telemons. Both cost WAY more than a full squad of Vanguard Vets with Thunder hammers and 2w each. How is that hyperbole? Marines go live right now with an unprecedented edge.
Not since the Tau of 7th has there been this level of cheese in a faction.
And to the "People are flocking to the golden bandwagon" argument. BS.
2w? They have 1w. If you refer to wound they get we don't know how much price will go up. While it's safe to bet too cheap still can't use current price as comparison. You either use current price and 1w or 2w and can"t compare prices
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: How is it hyperbole to state that right now, Vanguard Vets outhit and cost less than the nearest comparable Custodes Models?
Stat wise, our BEST unit is either out bikes or our Telemons. Both cost WAY more than a full squad of Vanguard Vets with Thunder hammers and 2w each. How is that hyperbole? Marines go live right now with an unprecedented edge.
Not since the Tau of 7th has there been this level of cheese in a faction.
And to the "People are flocking to the golden bandwagon" argument. BS.
2w? They have 1w. If you refer to wound they get we don't know how much price will go up. While it's safe to bet too cheap still can't use current price as comparison. You either use current price and 1w or 2w and can"t compare prices
So my comparison is based off the fact that our guys are literally the closest possible comparison bar point cost. They have a 12" fly move, a free deepstrike ability, fallback and charge (Or is that just Death Watch) S8 hitting a T4 3+ defense (With a possible 5++SS that may end up making them just +1 to all saves, we still don't know.), 2Ws, and the ability to get even more broken if you toss in a smash captain. Lets not forget Chapter Tactics because these guys can take Meltas bombs and Flamers so give them +1 to wound if they are Salamanders. You can take them in squads of 10. I don't know of many units that share this statline and possibilities. Granted I'm not Nostradomus of 40k. But what would you consider a "Fair" point cost for these guys?
th3proj3ct wrote: Anyone have any advice for running against TSons lists running magnus at 1500 points? I dont have any super long range FW firepower, and feel like SoS will be murdered turn 1 by all the non basic Rubric weapons. I'm just not quite sure how to survive even past T3 with D6 mortal wounds coming from one big model.
Don't know about the whole list but you could maybe deal with Magnus using a melee Dreadnought, use the half damage strat and Magnus will only do 1 damage per wound.
That strat got changed to minus 1 damage
Did the Space Marine strat get changed as well or did Custodes get shafted?
th3proj3ct wrote: Anyone have any advice for running against TSons lists running magnus at 1500 points? I dont have any super long range FW firepower, and feel like SoS will be murdered turn 1 by all the non basic Rubric weapons. I'm just not quite sure how to survive even past T3 with D6 mortal wounds coming from one big model.
Don't know about the whole list but you could maybe deal with Magnus using a melee Dreadnought, use the half damage strat and Magnus will only do 1 damage per wound.
That strat got changed to minus 1 damage
Did the Space Marine strat get changed as well or did Custodes get shafted?
Technically, our version as custodes was out of date, it was half damage for marines, which was nerfed to -1 damage. Then we got the version with half damage, which was promptly brought back into line with the marine version.
So my comparison is based off the fact that our guys are literally the closest possible comparison bar point cost. They have a 12" fly move, a free deepstrike ability, fallback and charge (Or is that just Death Watch) S8 hitting a T4 3+ defense (With a possible 5++SS that may end up making them just +1 to all saves, we still don't know.), 2Ws, and the ability to get even more broken if you toss in a smash captain. Lets not forget Chapter Tactics because these guys can take Meltas bombs and Flamers so give them +1 to wound if they are Salamanders. You can take them in squads of 10. I don't know of many units that share this statline and possibilities. Granted I'm not Nostradomus of 40k. But what would you consider a "Fair" point cost for these guys?
Youve combined multiple different chapter tactics and (illegal) wargear configurations here, while also making wildly inaccurate rules statements.
For the second time, point for point Custodes *still* outperform VanHammer squads using new marine rules and old Custodes rules. And thats an equation I expect to see swing further in the Custodes direction as 9th edition updates roll out.
th3proj3ct wrote: Anyone have any advice for running against TSons lists running magnus at 1500 points? I dont have any super long range FW firepower, and feel like SoS will be murdered turn 1 by all the non basic Rubric weapons. I'm just not quite sure how to survive even past T3 with D6 mortal wounds coming from one big model.
Don't know about the whole list but you could maybe deal with Magnus using a melee Dreadnought, use the half damage strat and Magnus will only do 1 damage per wound.
That strat got changed to minus 1 damage
Did the Space Marine strat get changed as well or did Custodes get shafted?
Technically, our version as custodes was out of date, it was half damage for marines, which was nerfed to -1 damage. Then we got the version with half damage, which was promptly brought back into line with the marine version.
Ah me and my mate (he plays Space Marines) have both been playing it wrong then. Not that it matters, the only time I used the strat I managed to make all my invul saves.
So what's everyone's thoughts on the Craftworld match-up? Seems like we have a lot more objective claiming power, but they still have a ton of multi-damage and high AP at their disposal. Plus Wave Serpents.
Audustum wrote: So what's everyone's thoughts on the Craftworld match-up? Seems like we have a lot more objective claiming power, but they still have a ton of multi-damage and high AP at their disposal. Plus Wave Serpents.
I think Eldar shooting is mainly scary thanks to Doom and Jinx which we now have the mechanisms to get rid of. I'd be taking the Deny WLT as my extra and using whatever stratagems necessary to prevent those powers going off/functioning. Between Auspice, the 4+ auto-deny and the original deny strat you can be fairly confident of avoiding one or both.
Fly nerf really hit Craftworlds hard and all their troops went up a bit, so I really dont think they'll be able to contest objectives well at all like you say. Wave serpents are still solid but they're now 150 points each so they ought to be, they aren't tough in CC so only the mortal wounds to worry about really. Watch out for war walkers or Dark reapers fire and fading back behind ruins to get out of LOS.
Unfortunately I'm the only Eldar player in my group so unlikely to face them myself anytime soon.
Audustum wrote: So what's everyone's thoughts on the Craftworld match-up? Seems like we have a lot more objective claiming power, but they still have a ton of multi-damage and high AP at their disposal. Plus Wave Serpents.
I think Eldar shooting is mainly scary thanks to Doom and Jinx which we now have the mechanisms to get rid of. I'd be taking the Deny WLT as my extra and using whatever stratagems necessary to prevent those powers going off/functioning. Between Auspice, the 4+ auto-deny and the original deny strat you can be fairly confident of avoiding one or both.
Fly nerf really hit Craftworlds hard and all their troops went up a bit, so I really dont think they'll be able to contest objectives well at all like you say. Wave serpents are still solid but they're now 150 points each so they ought to be, they aren't tough in CC so only the mortal wounds to worry about really. Watch out for war walkers or Dark reapers fire and fading back behind ruins to get out of LOS.
Unfortunately I'm the only Eldar player in my group so unlikely to face them myself anytime soon.
Yeah, I was mostly worried about the mortal wounds flying off of Serpent Shields. What are your thoughts on Hornets?
Yeah, I was mostly worried about the mortal wounds flying off of Serpent Shields. What are your thoughts on Hornets?
Absolutely horrifying
6 shots of S6 AP-3 D2 for that price is crazy good. As a unit they can be buffed up easily or individually they benefit hugely from Expert Crafters. Don't know if there's an efficient answer to them for Custodes.
The more I think about it, the more I see the answer to stuff like hornets being massive firepower of our own, like bringing back triple caladius (or Telemon). The only way to deal with glass cannon-type stuff is to kill it, and I think one of the weaknesses of a lot of the Custodes lists I’ve seen is (potentially) a sole reliance on durability and close combat. Both of those got buffed with War of the Spider, but Space Marine shooting is just as dominant as ever and the threats that killed us before are still out there; we can’t afford to let stuff just shoot us for 5 turns.
So I think Custodes lists need to include a decent “heavy shooting” base, my thoughts of some candidates:
Caladius Tank
Telemon Dread (and I think the accelerator cannons are more general purpose)
A few Pallas tanks
Agamatus bikes
Big Vertus Praetor squad with missiles for re-roll damage strat, can use grim responsibility and no rerolls to keep them alive plus you get close and the mulch you.
Tried crusade for the first time today with a buddy of mine. Just 25pl, so I could play everything I have painted which is my terminator captain, a 3man guard squad and my galatus.
The rules and narrative possibilities are cool in general, but this was the most frustrating game I've ever played
My buddy played space wolves and brought Wulfen and eradicators. He basically tabled me in turn 3 without me being able to do anything against it. I managed to kill a single model, which was one wulfen.
I'm not going to play crusade again in the foreseeable future. I like the idea, but my personal experience was just awful.
Tiberias wrote: Tried crusade for the first time today with a buddy of mine. Just 25pl, so I could play everything I have painted which is my terminator captain, a 3man guard squad and my galatus.
The rules and narrative possibilities are cool in general, but this was the most frustrating game I've ever played
My buddy played space wolves and brought Wulfen and eradicators. He basically tabled me in turn 3 without me being able to do anything against it. I managed to kill a single model, which was one wulfen.
I'm not going to play crusade again in the foreseeable future. I like the idea, but my personal experience was just awful.
You played a 500 point(ish) game against a list that was perfectly suited to hard counter yours. That's how micro games of 40k end up more often than not. The scale means that individual lists Rock/Paper/Scissors extremely fiercely, and if you're on the wrong end of the equation you're going to have a bad day.
It isnt the fault of the Crusade ruleset. A Matched Play game under the same circumstances is going to have the same result.
I get the frustration quotient here. I really do. Nobody wants to be on the receiving end of a curbstomp. All I can suggest is to play at larger scales (doesnt quite sound like an option based on your model collection, but I cant stress enough how poorly balanced 40k is at tiny points levels), and have a chat with your opponent about the level of competitiveness that their lists are at.
Tiberias wrote: Tried crusade for the first time today with a buddy of mine. Just 25pl, so I could play everything I have painted which is my terminator captain, a 3man guard squad and my galatus.
The rules and narrative possibilities are cool in general, but this was the most frustrating game I've ever played
My buddy played space wolves and brought Wulfen and eradicators. He basically tabled me in turn 3 without me being able to do anything against it. I managed to kill a single model, which was one wulfen.
I'm not going to play crusade again in the foreseeable future. I like the idea, but my personal experience was just awful.
You played a 500 point(ish) game against a list that was perfectly suited to hard counter yours. That's how micro games of 40k end up more often than not. The scale means that individual lists Rock/Paper/Scissors extremely fiercely, and if you're on the wrong end of the equation you're going to have a bad day.
It isnt the fault of the Crusade ruleset. A Matched Play game under the same circumstances is going to have the same result.
I get the frustration quotient here. I really do. Nobody wants to be on the receiving end of a curbstomp. All I can suggest is to play at larger scales (doesnt quite sound like an option based on your model collection, but I cant stress enough how poorly balanced 40k is at tiny points levels), and have a chat with your opponent about the level of competitiveness that their lists are at.
Me saying I'll refrain from playing crusade is not because I think the ruleset is bad. I think it's quite cool actually.
But in my playgroup everyone but me just started new factions and they wanted to start playing those new factions in crusade, so those low point games are going to continue for some time at least.
I don't think my buddy intentionally took a list that counters mine, but the end result was still the same, Wulfen are just ridiculously overpowered against custodes specifically. Especially since I didnt bring venatari, which he knew, cause I haven't painted them yet.
But yeah, like you said, being on the receiving end of such a curbstomp in truly not fun, especially when losing every unit can bring permanent negative effects. Like it did in this case.
Sterling191 wrote: Remember, units can be discharged and replaced for free on your order of battle if youve accrued battle scars you want to get rid of..
Kinda sucks though if it's your warlord. And a character you've spent a lot of time to paint and tried to craft a backstory.
Like I said, I know you can fix all that. It's just really demoralizing for all that kind of bad stuff to happen to your crusade force in your first game.
Tiberias wrote: Tried crusade for the first time today with a buddy of mine. Just 25pl, so I could play everything I have painted which is my terminator captain, a 3man guard squad and my galatus.
The rules and narrative possibilities are cool in general, but this was the most frustrating game I've ever played
My buddy played space wolves and brought Wulfen and eradicators. He basically tabled me in turn 3 without me being able to do anything against it. I managed to kill a single model, which was one wulfen.
I'm not going to play crusade again in the foreseeable future. I like the idea, but my personal experience was just awful.
Had the opposite experience.
25PL vs White Scars Space Marines
I took 2 *wounds* total during the fight.
I think its more an indictment of the smallest games and POWER LEVEL as a whole than the crusade system. Remember, those Wulfen in the PL mode, get all their suped up wargear for *free*. Technically, PL benefits any faction with a ton of wargear choices that don't come standard on their models, as you can take anything for no change in price.
Tiberias wrote: Tried crusade for the first time today with a buddy of mine. Just 25pl, so I could play everything I have painted which is my terminator captain, a 3man guard squad and my galatus.
The rules and narrative possibilities are cool in general, but this was the most frustrating game I've ever played
My buddy played space wolves and brought Wulfen and eradicators. He basically tabled me in turn 3 without me being able to do anything against it. I managed to kill a single model, which was one wulfen.
I'm not going to play crusade again in the foreseeable future. I like the idea, but my personal experience was just awful.
Had the opposite experience.
25PL vs White Scars Space Marines
I took 2 *wounds* total during the fight.
I think its more an indictment of the smallest games and POWER LEVEL as a whole than the crusade system. Remember, those Wulfen in the PL mode, get all their suped up wargear for *free*. Technically, PL benefits any faction with a ton of wargear choices that don't come standard on their models, as you can take anything for no change in price.
Yeah I really don't get why GW is trying to force PL down peoples throats. Its systemically imbalanced as you've described, and poor balance is not fun for anyone, no matter what kind of game you're playing.
It's especially strange since they've obviously gone to such lengths to make sure points are balanced in 8th and 9th compared to previous editions.
Tiberias wrote: Tried crusade for the first time today with a buddy of mine. Just 25pl, so I could play everything I have painted which is my terminator captain, a 3man guard squad and my galatus.
The rules and narrative possibilities are cool in general, but this was the most frustrating game I've ever played
My buddy played space wolves and brought Wulfen and eradicators. He basically tabled me in turn 3 without me being able to do anything against it. I managed to kill a single model, which was one wulfen.
I'm not going to play crusade again in the foreseeable future. I like the idea, but my personal experience was just awful.
Had the opposite experience.
25PL vs White Scars Space Marines
I took 2 *wounds* total during the fight.
I think its more an indictment of the smallest games and POWER LEVEL as a whole than the crusade system. Remember, those Wulfen in the PL mode, get all their suped up wargear for *free*. Technically, PL benefits any faction with a ton of wargear choices that don't come standard on their models, as you can take anything for no change in price.
You are absolutely right. We checked after the game, his 25PL basically came down to around 612 points or so and my 25PL came down to 456 points. So yeah, power level sucks (also wulfen suck).
Glad to hear you had a more positive experience with crusade.
iGuy91 wrote: Remember, those Wulfen in the PL mode, get all their suped up wargear for *free*. Technically, PL benefits any faction with a ton of wargear choices that don't come standard on their models, as you can take anything for no change in price.
Lets clarify something right here: PL bakes into its value unit wargear upgrades, and some of the hardest hit units are those with individual upgrade setups like Wulfen, Deathwatch Veterans or Crisis Suits.
The Points -> PL formula is very simple: (Base cost of unit (IE: the cost of the model plus the cost of any mandatory basic warger) + The cost of the unit with its most expensive upgrades) / 40, rounded to the nearest whole number (there are edge cases where specific adjustments are made, DW Vets being an example because for an entire edition they were priced as if every model was packing a Thunder Hammer and Combi Melta but were dropped slightly in the last update).
What this does mean though, is that unless you take a good chunk of wargear, you're overpaying on PL. Eldar grav tanks are a prime example of this as they have nearly 3 PL of "optional" upgrades that nobody takes in points games, but are baked into their PL costs.
For armies like Custodes, PL is a fairly accurate representation of their points costs because of the lack of customization. For others, its a moving target that if you chrome to the gills you overperform for your cost. But the argument that the PL system allows units to get things "for free" is completely inaccurate.
iGuy91 wrote: Remember, those Wulfen in the PL mode, get all their suped up wargear for *free*. Technically, PL benefits any faction with a ton of wargear choices that don't come standard on their models, as you can take anything for no change in price.
Lets clarify something right here: PL bakes into its value unit wargear upgrades, and some of the hardest hit units are those with individual upgrade setups like Wulfen, Deathwatch Veterans or Crisis Suits.
The Points -> PL formula is very simple: (Base cost of unit (IE: the cost of the model plus the cost of any mandatory basic warger) + The cost of the unit with its most expensive upgrades) / 40, rounded to the nearest whole number (there are edge cases where specific adjustments are made, DW Vets being an example because for an entire edition they were priced as if every model was packing a Thunder Hammer and Combi Melta but were dropped slightly in the last update).
What this does mean though, is that unless you take a good chunk of wargear, you're overpaying on PL. Eldar grav tanks are a prime example of this as they have nearly 3 PL of "optional" upgrades that nobody takes in points games, but are baked into their PL costs.
For armies like Custodes, PL is a fairly accurate representation of their points costs because of the lack of customization. For others, its a moving target that if you chrome to the gills you overperform for your cost. But the argument that the PL system allows units to get things "for free" is completely inaccurate.
Fair enough, but that still means that in practical terms, PL is not worth using and points are the more granular and balanced alternative.
I for one won't be playing crusade with PLanymore, ever.
If you want balance you use neither PL nor points. Both are equally imbalanced. Just what is best changes. Neither is fit for even remote glance if you are looking for balance.
tneva82 wrote: If you want balance you use neither PL nor points. Both are equally imbalanced. Just what is best changes. Neither is fit for even remote glance if you are looking for balance.
Yeah ok, but there are shades to this....saying both are equally imbalanced is simply not true.
I honestly think PL was implemented to give first time players (SM or some other Elite heavy Army) an easy way to play the game without all the confusing maths. It's like Babys first 40k, or DND without any of the rolled dice, just use the average, id8=4 etc.
I don't think they ever intended PL to be the basis for balance throughout the game. That wouldn't make sense, because it would eliminate the swing that comes with variation.
It also has some use as a reference. Like for some units being put into deepstrike, costs more if the PL reaches a certain threshold. Would be a little more gamey if it was points. You'd see someone take or not take a stormbolter on a vehicle just so they could put it in deepstrike. (a silly example but you get the gist)
tneva82 wrote: If you want balance you use neither PL nor points. Both are equally imbalanced. Just what is best changes. Neither is fit for even remote glance if you are looking for balance.
When people say balance they're aren't meaning perfect balance as you seem to imply. Obviously it needs to be assessed against a relative level of choice of action and customizability in army building, which are some of the main attractions of tabletop and miniature gaming. Otherwise we would all end up playing chess (which is still not a balanced game according to that definition).
What solution would you propose to achieving such a thing if points are not the answer?
The main issue seems to be the inability of GW to see past their Loyalist SM focus. To all the old timers, has any race or faction ever gotten a full 150% rebuild from scratch, all new models, even new models that aren't replacing an old models. Looking at you ATV and Impulsor Variants. You know what this hover transport needs? Long Range Anti-Tank capability. But seriously, has this ever happened? Maybe what we are seeing isn't imbalance, but a new GW approach to faction based rebuilds?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: The main issue seems to be the inability of GW to see past their Loyalist SM focus. To all the old timers, has any race or faction ever gotten a full 150% rebuild from scratch, all new models, even new models that aren't replacing an old models. Looking at you ATV and Impulsor Variants. You know what this hover transport needs? Long Range Anti-Tank capability. But seriously, has this ever happened? Maybe what we are seeing isn't imbalance, but a new GW approach to faction based rebuilds?
Necrons right now, Sisters & Deathguard last edition all getting a complete range refresh and brand new units.
SM sell too well to ever not be the first to get attention when ever anything big happens (1st to get chapter tactics/army traits, amongst the 1st to get formations, 1st to get a doctrines style ability but they won't be the last), and given how well marines sell there is no incentive not to continue releasing new stuff.
Are you saying there is a different thread we need to post on, or that we have become irrelevant, or that we need to talk more tactics?
Because your post ism honestly hard to discern the meaning from.
As far as tactics, we are discussing the likelihood of Custodes getting new models in the new edition, if any. Is wishlisting forbidden?
It's certainly more interesting than;
"hurr Wulfen ROFLstomped my custodes 500 point army" Even though we are clearly built to not play well in small games due to our cost.
Are you saying there is a different thread we need to post on, or that we have become irrelevant, or that we need to talk more tactics?
Because your post ism honestly hard to discern the meaning from.
As far as tactics, we are discussing the likelihood of Custodes getting new models in the new edition, if any. Is wishlisting forbidden?
It's certainly more interesting than;
"hurr Wulfen ROFLstomped my custodes 500 point army" Even though we are clearly built to not play well in small games due to our cost.
I am really not sure if you are intentionally trying to be a douchebag, but it is really getting harder and harder for me to take your misinformed, hyperbolic posts seriously. Also custodes usually overperform at low points due to our inherent toughness.
As to your question: if we are getting new models in this edition, my bet is on forgeworld and not gw.
We wont be getting any new FW models. The FW stuff we got is all for Horus Heresy converted to 40k and they arent gonna be making anything new for HH.
We could possibly get more options gear-wise from FW such as being able to take Solarite gauntlets on guardians but there wont be any new kits.
Custodes dont really have much more new stuff they could get.
There are units like Epherioa assassins', characters (such as valdor), and a possibly that our new codex will be Talons of The Emperor (so sisters wrapped into our dex).
I'd love a new plastic kit from GW but theres not much from the lore to support it. What we need is to gain access to a scout type unit of some type and a smaller flyer (i so wish we could put a custode piloting a xiphon for example).
Eihnlazer wrote: We wont be getting any new FW models. The FW stuff we got is all for Horus Heresy converted to 40k and they arent gonna be making anything new for HH.
We could possibly get more options gear-wise from FW such as being able to take Solarite gauntlets on guardians but there wont be any new kits.
Custodes dont really have much more new stuff they could get.
There are units like Epherioa assassins', characters (such as valdor), and a possibly that our new codex will be Talons of The Emperor (so sisters wrapped into our dex).
I'd love a new plastic kit from GW but theres not much from the lore to support it. What we need is to gain access to a scout type unit of some type and a smaller flyer (i so wish we could put a custode piloting a xiphon for example).
The only counter point I have is that there is going to be an emperor model coming out for 30k, likely when the last book of the heresy comes out. I am basing this on the fact that the emperor has been mentioned in the 30k custodes rules specifically already.
My personal guess is that when the 30k model for the emperor is released, they will also release something for the custodes...my guess is the heteaeron guard. Just my guess, could be wrong of course.
Honestly the sisters arent all that useful, but the fact that we can take their 65pt rhinos for cheap ablative wounds and LOS blockers is way more interesting to me.
Eihnlazer wrote: Honestly the sisters arent all that useful, but the fact that we can take their 65pt rhinos for cheap ablative wounds and LOS blockers is way more interesting to me.
A 5-sister unit can form a 12” long line that projects a 9 inch “can’t come in from reserves” aura around it. Plus being able to have even cheaper backfield objective holders would be nice.
Eihnlazer wrote: We wont be getting any new FW models. The FW stuff we got is all for Horus Heresy converted to 40k and they arent gonna be making anything new for HH.
We could possibly get more options gear-wise from FW such as being able to take Solarite gauntlets on guardians but there wont be any new kits.
Custodes dont really have much more new stuff they could get.
There are units like Epherioa assassins', characters (such as valdor), and a possibly that our new codex will be Talons of The Emperor (so sisters wrapped into our dex).
I'd love a new plastic kit from GW but theres not much from the lore to support it. What we need is to gain access to a scout type unit of some type and a smaller flyer (i so wish we could put a custode piloting a xiphon for example).
New units don't need to be mentioned in the fluff befor they come out. Almost all of the primaris stuff was never mentioned in the fluff befor release.
Back to the main topic. I am thinking about tournament list with only two obsec models but i am not sure if that is enough. If both players have obsec the only thing that matters is the number of models and we are almost allways outnumbered. what are your thoughts and experiences.
Eihnlazer wrote: We wont be getting any new FW models. The FW stuff we got is all for Horus Heresy converted to 40k and they arent gonna be making anything new for HH.
We could possibly get more options gear-wise from FW such as being able to take Solarite gauntlets on guardians but there wont be any new kits.
Custodes dont really have much more new stuff they could get.
There are units like Epherioa assassins', characters (such as valdor), and a possibly that our new codex will be Talons of The Emperor (so sisters wrapped into our dex).
I'd love a new plastic kit from GW but theres not much from the lore to support it. What we need is to gain access to a scout type unit of some type and a smaller flyer (i so wish we could put a custode piloting a xiphon for example).
New units don't need to be mentioned in the fluff befor they come out. Almost all of the primaris stuff was never mentioned in the fluff befor release.
Back to the main topic. I am thinking about tournament list with only two obsec models but i am not sure if that is enough. If both players have obsec the only thing that matters is the number of models and we are almost allways outnumbered. what are your thoughts and experiences.
ObSec is critically important and you want tons of it. Not only does it score/deny primaries, but it does things like burn down Raise the Banners flags and open the door to scoring stuff like Domination consistently.
Back to the main topic. I am thinking about tournament list with only two obsec models but i am not sure if that is enough. If both players have obsec the only thing that matters is the number of models and we are almost allways outnumbered. what are your thoughts and experiences.
How are you managing to get 2 obsec models? Bearing in mind that all Custodes infantry and bikes get it, including characters. Unless you're taking all vehicles or something?
It's terribly important. I'm convinced that Custodes are the strongest objective holders in the game all things considered, but that only goes for infantry and bikes who have the strats and obsec to be tough and scrappy in close quarters (the heroic intervene strat is particularly good to prevent enemies stealing your objectives).
Back to the main topic. I am thinking about tournament list with only two obsec models but i am not sure if that is enough. If both players have obsec the only thing that matters is the number of models and we are almost allways outnumbered. what are your thoughts and experiences.
How are you managing to get 2 obsec models? Bearing in mind that all Custodes infantry and bikes get it, including characters. Unless you're taking all vehicles or something?
It's terribly important. I'm convinced that Custodes are the strongest objective holders in the game all things considered, but that only goes for infantry and bikes who have the strats and obsec to be tough and scrappy in close quarters (the heroic intervene strat is particularly good to prevent enemies stealing your objectives).
Yeah- how do you write such a list in custodes? is it all vehicles?
If so, the all vehicle lists that shined last edition really really do not now. objectives are far far more important and as custodes we play them very well.
I thought going into 9th that the lack of 3x3 battalion tax was a blessing, but I've quickly gone back to using 3x3 guard, even more, to provide a backbone to the armies objective power.
I think you'd really struggle at a tournament with only 2 such models.
Also keep in mind that vehicle only lists can give up multiple secondaries very, very easily. One of the biggest strengths of elite armies (and one that's generally underrated) is their capacity to construct lists in such a way that they only give up maybe half of a given secondary's value, not the full 15.
Preventing an opponent from scoring 25 points just by list construction is not something to take lightly.
Eihnlazer wrote: We wont be getting any new FW models. The FW stuff we got is all for Horus Heresy converted to 40k and they arent gonna be making anything new for HH.
We could possibly get more options gear-wise from FW such as being able to take Solarite gauntlets on guardians but there wont be any new kits.
Custodes dont really have much more new stuff they could get.
There are units like Epherioa assassins', characters (such as valdor), and a possibly that our new codex will be Talons of The Emperor (so sisters wrapped into our dex).
I'd love a new plastic kit from GW but theres not much from the lore to support it. What we need is to gain access to a scout type unit of some type and a smaller flyer (i so wish we could put a custode piloting a xiphon for example).
New units don't need to be mentioned in the fluff befor they come out. Almost all of the primaris stuff was never mentioned in the fluff befor release.
Back to the main topic. I am thinking about tournament list with only two obsec models but i am not sure if that is enough. If both players have obsec the only thing that matters is the number of models and we are almost allways outnumbered. what are your thoughts and experiences.
ObSec is critically important and you want tons of it. Not only does it score/deny primaries, but it does things like burn down Raise the Banners flags and open the door to scoring stuff like Domination consistently.
I know how important ObSec is but guards are not good enough in my opinion to be included in my next tournament list. The last tournament i played was in 8th.
Spartacus wrote:
Back to the main topic. I am thinking about tournament list with only two obsec models but i am not sure if that is enough. If both players have obsec the only thing that matters is the number of models and we are almost allways outnumbered. what are your thoughts and experiences.
How are you managing to get 2 obsec models? Bearing in mind that all Custodes infantry and bikes get it, including characters. Unless you're taking all vehicles or something?
It's terribly important. I'm convinced that Custodes are the strongest objective holders in the game all things considered, but that only goes for infantry and bikes who have the strats and obsec to be tough and scrappy in close quarters (the heroic intervene strat is particularly good to prevent enemies stealing your objectives).
Yeah i know everything has obsec except for vehicels. IMO Custodes are good at holding objectives but are not the best at it we just have to few models.
I was thinking about a list like this
Back to the main topic. I am thinking about tournament list with only two obsec models but i am not sure if that is enough. If both players have obsec the only thing that matters is the number of models and we are almost allways outnumbered. what are your thoughts and experiences.
How are you managing to get 2 obsec models? Bearing in mind that all Custodes infantry and bikes get it, including characters. Unless you're taking all vehicles or something?
It's terribly important. I'm convinced that Custodes are the strongest objective holders in the game all things considered, but that only goes for infantry and bikes who have the strats and obsec to be tough and scrappy in close quarters (the heroic intervene strat is particularly good to prevent enemies stealing your objectives).
Yeah- how do you write such a list in custodes? is it all vehicles?
If so, the all vehicle lists that shined last edition really really do not now. objectives are far far more important and as custodes we play them very well.
I thought going into 9th that the lack of 3x3 battalion tax was a blessing, but I've quickly gone back to using 3x3 guard, even more, to provide a backbone to the armies objective power.
I think you'd really struggle at a tournament with only 2 such models.
The thing is, i would include guardians but i can't justify 150+ points and have them to nothing other then stand on a marker. I think of it this way ii i have to have something on the maker it schould be able shoot other wise it is not doing anything.
Sterling191 wrote:Also keep in mind that vehicle only lists can give up multiple secondaries very, very easily. One of the biggest strengths of elite armies (and one that's generally underrated) is their capacity to construct lists in such a way that they only give up maybe half of a given secondary's value, not the full 15.
Preventing an opponent from scoring 25 points just by list construction is not something to take lightly.
I agree you could deny your opponent some points but more like 10 not 25. But i think i need to consider doing it.
I ran a list like that as an experiment, though instead of the ares I had a 4-man terminator squad. The list you have is also well over 2000 points, you’ll need to drop some stuff. Played against an admech list of breachers and almost tabled them. I don’t think takes full advantage of Custodes strats though.
I’ll be the contrarian here, obsec is nice but in my 3 games I haven’t seen it be all that important. YMMV, but most of the objective grabs happen by obsec units, which often outnumber ours. I think an obsec block of terminators to hold center objectives make sense, but my experience has been if I’m kicking a unit off an objective I’m killing it outright.
Triple telemon is not competitive. You can't support 3 with strats, and harlequins are a thing. Their range is an issue as well, unless your running their bad gun. If you want that type of list just play knights.
Every actually competitive list in 9th is going to have a termy blob, one or two telemons, and some other spattering of characters/troops that don't cost them cp (i.e. patrol or battalion).
The thing is, i would include guardians but i can't justify 150+ points and have them to nothing other then stand on a marker. I think of it this way ii i have to have something on the maker it schould be able shoot other wise it is not doing anything.
That's good logic but it doesn't always work that way. Yes you definitely want some units that can move to and sit on an objective to be armed with guns, but for the centre board objectives which are almost certainly going to be contested by your opponent, a unit like a Telemon or caladius will likely end up as a bit of a liability. You'll get charged by something cheap, tough/numerous and obsec and be unable to clear them which means you need to either fall back to finish them with shooting (and your unit does nothing), or charge in with another unit in support to help claim the objective, in which case your original unit wasn't a very good choice to take it in the first place. You'll also have almost no chance of having held that objective in your command phase because you would have needed to destroy the whole enemy squad in the fight phase (which Caladius tanks/Telemons can't do).
If that unit was a squad of shield guard or terminators on the other hand, you remove your opponents option to charge them and easily steal the objective. A squad can cut the enemy unit to bits when it charges in, and even if you don't wipe them out you'll probably still hold the objective at the start of your turn because of your multiple models + obsec. To push them off your opponent needs to commit a large investment of shooting and/or assault firepower which they don't always have the option to do depending on how the battle is going.
Infantry can also prevent an enemy from sneaking a few models onto the edge of an objective as well, either by the tanglefoot strat or the heroic intervene strat, both of which I have found to be so powerful when fighting over objectives.
Hopefully that all reads clearly , my experience with 9th so far is that you really need a split of shooty vehicles to hold rear objectives and do the damage from far away, and squads who can push onto the mid field and enemy held objectives to hold them without being swarmed.
Something to also consider with Vehicles is that an enemy doesn’t need to steal an objective to keep you from scoring. Simply charging a Rhino (or other cheap transport) into your single tank can null the objective. This can be the break point for Hold More while simultaneously denying your capacity to score simply by virtue of nulling the objective for a single turn.
Yeah... telemons are seriously not killy enough for them to be the backbone of your force. They rely pretty heavily on using the defensive stratagems, otherwise with any dedicated AT fire they simply die.
Basic shield guard don't ostensibly bring a lot to the table when compared to a telemon or a caladius, but they provide so much utility and flexibility while also being a real bugger to shift off an objective.
the rule obsec itself is often not all that massively important, in my experience it is everything else they do that is the important bit- screen, move quickly, hide, stay on objectives and bring some real skirmishing power. (a unit of say 5 intercessors isnt going to want to get charged/charge you, they'll die in two rounds of combat)
And you say that 150+ points to do nothing isn't that favourable, but in my experience they don't impact what you kill, but how well you score.
I don't know how I feel about the ares, I've never seen it used. But I do feel like getting more boots on the ground and maybe running 1 telemon 2 caladius and/or a couple pallas would work far far better in a tournament setting. The playstyle of the mechastodes list of 8th is massively punished in how the game is played now.
But, maybe playing intelligently you can still do well. Give it a shot and report back I will be interested to see how you fare.
greyknight12 wrote: I ran a list like that as an experiment, though instead of the ares I had a 4-man terminator squad. The list you have is also well over 2000 points, you’ll need to drop some stuff. Played against an admech list of breachers and almost tabled them. I don’t think takes full advantage of Custodes strats though.
I’ll be the contrarian here, obsec is nice but in my 3 games I haven’t seen it be all that important. YMMV, but most of the objective grabs happen by obsec units, which often outnumber ours. I think an obsec block of terminators to hold center objectives make sense, but my experience has been if I’m kicking a unit off an objective I’m killing it outright.
All those lists are 2000 points. yup i think i will include a units of terminators for holding the midfield objectives.
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Eihnlazer wrote: Triple telemon is not competitive. You can't support 3 with strats, and harlequins are a thing. Their range is an issue as well, unless your running their bad gun. If you want that type of list just play knights.
Every actually competitive list in 9th is going to have a termy blob, one or two telemons, and some other spattering of characters/troops that don't cost them cp (i.e. patrol or battalion).
The bad gun is the same as the caladius gun minus 12" range. It is very good for killing marines.
The thing is, i would include guardians but i can't justify 150+ points and have them to nothing other then stand on a marker. I think of it this way ii i have to have something on the maker it schould be able shoot other wise it is not doing anything.
That's good logic but it doesn't always work that way. Yes you definitely want some units that can move to and sit on an objective to be armed with guns, but for the centre board objectives which are almost certainly going to be contested by your opponent, a unit like a Telemon or caladius will likely end up as a bit of a liability. You'll get charged by something cheap, tough/numerous and obsec and be unable to clear them which means you need to either fall back to finish them with shooting (and your unit does nothing), or charge in with another unit in support to help claim the objective, in which case your original unit wasn't a very good choice to take it in the first place. You'll also have almost no chance of having held that objective in your command phase because you would have needed to destroy the whole enemy squad in the fight phase (which Caladius tanks/Telemons can't do).
If that unit was a squad of shield guard or terminators on the other hand, you remove your opponents option to charge them and easily steal the objective. A squad can cut the enemy unit to bits when it charges in, and even if you don't wipe them out you'll probably still hold the objective at the start of your turn because of your multiple models + obsec. To push them off your opponent needs to commit a large investment of shooting and/or assault firepower which they don't always have the option to do depending on how the battle is going.
Infantry can also prevent an enemy from sneaking a few models onto the edge of an objective as well, either by the tanglefoot strat or the heroic intervene strat, both of which I have found to be so powerful when fighting over objectives.
Hopefully that all reads clearly , my experience with 9th so far is that you really need a split of shooty vehicles to hold rear objectives and do the damage from far away, and squads who can push onto the mid field and enemy held objectives to hold them without being swarmed.
Thanks you made some good points. But the vehicles don't need to leave combat or the objective they can just shoot in combat and overwatch on 5+. You are right screening the table edges might be importet against some armies.
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McMagnus Mindbullets wrote: Yeah... telemons are seriously not killy enough for them to be the backbone of your force. They rely pretty heavily on using the defensive stratagems, otherwise with any dedicated AT fire they simply die.
Basic shield guard don't ostensibly bring a lot to the table when compared to a telemon or a caladius, but they provide so much utility and flexibility while also being a real bugger to shift off an objective.
the rule obsec itself is often not all that massively important, in my experience it is everything else they do that is the important bit- screen, move quickly, hide, stay on objectives and bring some real skirmishing power. (a unit of say 5 intercessors isnt going to want to get charged/charge you, they'll die in two rounds of combat)
And you say that 150+ points to do nothing isn't that favourable, but in my experience they don't impact what you kill, but how well you score.
I don't know how I feel about the ares, I've never seen it used. But I do feel like getting more boots on the ground and maybe running 1 telemon 2 caladius and/or a couple pallas would work far far better in a tournament setting. The playstyle of the mechastodes list of 8th is massively punished in how the game is played now.
But, maybe playing intelligently you can still do well. Give it a shot and report back I will be interested to see how you fare.
Telemon is as killy as a Caladius but 3 Telemon is probably to much. The problem is, with Eradicators everywhere the Caladius dies very fast. The ares is really great tougher than 2 Caladius and cheaper but more damage output. And those boms really clear inv. hordes like demons.
I will test a few lists one is this:
Trajann
SC on bike
3 guardians with shields
4 Aquilon with 4 mis.
vex
Telemon
Telemon
Ares
I could also swap one Telemon vor a fifth Aquilon and a Caladius.
Thanks you made some good points. But the vehicles don't need to leave combat or the objective they can just shoot in combat and overwatch on 5+. You are right screening the table edges might be importet against some armies..
Here's the thing: against a delaying play that doesnt matter. Shutting down a Telemon or a Caladius for a single turn is worth the price of a Rhino (or equivalent cheap throwaway disruptor unit). Keeping the firepower from one of your very limited fire pieces from affecting the table for even a turn, while simultaneously denying you victory points, is a massive thing, and a trade skilled players are delighted to make.
Is there any chance that in the future Custodes might get a Super ObSec, where we control anything we are standing on? Is there a precedent for a unit with a rule like that in the past? Also, if we have some pretty large based land units, how many shields would it take to completely crowd an objective?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Is there any chance that in the future Custodes might get a Super ObSec, where we control anything we are standing on? Is there a precedent for a unit with a rule like that in the past? Also, if we have some pretty large based land units, how many shields would it take to completely crowd an objective?
The only thing that comes close is a 3cp strat that the Black Legion gets. It isnt "super ObSec", but it turns off enemy ObSec if an appropriate unit is on an objective.
As to whether Talons will get it? Not a chance. Theyre an army that already gets substantially better access to ObSec via their core army rules (any infantry or bike, regardless of FoC placement).
Eihnlazer wrote: We wont be getting any new FW models. The FW stuff we got is all for Horus Heresy converted to 40k and they arent gonna be making anything new for HH.
We could possibly get more options gear-wise from FW such as being able to take Solarite gauntlets on guardians but there wont be any new kits.
Custodes dont really have much more new stuff they could get.
There are units like Epherioa assassins', characters (such as valdor), and a possibly that our new codex will be Talons of The Emperor (so sisters wrapped into our dex).
I'd love a new plastic kit from GW but theres not much from the lore to support it. What we need is to gain access to a scout type unit of some type and a smaller flyer (i so wish we could put a custode piloting a xiphon for example).
Custodes need a plastic naught and tank that are not SM handmedowns
Eihnlazer wrote: We wont be getting any new FW models. The FW stuff we got is all for Horus Heresy converted to 40k and they arent gonna be making anything new for HH.
We could possibly get more options gear-wise from FW such as being able to take Solarite gauntlets on guardians but there wont be any new kits.
Custodes dont really have much more new stuff they could get.
There are units like Epherioa assassins', characters (such as valdor), and a possibly that our new codex will be Talons of The Emperor (so sisters wrapped into our dex).
I'd love a new plastic kit from GW but theres not much from the lore to support it. What we need is to gain access to a scout type unit of some type and a smaller flyer (i so wish we could put a custode piloting a xiphon for example).
Custodes need a plastic naught and tank that are not SM handmedowns
Please, no more elites slot choices....
I'd settle for a Plastic heavy tank/transport that isn't dog crap. Ala Venerable Impulsor/Repulsor Exectutioner. A solid T8 transport with a +++6 invuln stock.
Not going to lie, a single list in a vacuum like this does create more questions than answers. What was the opposition like? Aggregate Skill level? What were/was the missions? What did the match ups shake out to?
I'm guessing here, but the Rhinos were for grabbing objectives quickly and holding, or at least denying, the Ares/Terminators were for character slaying and monster killing on turn 2, possibly turn 1, and the tanks just provided long range killy dakka? I mean no clue here, but it scares me how prevelent the Ares is becoming. 4th list I've seen it in. Don't like our competitiveness tied to a giant air Gallant that costs more than the rest of the army combined? (500USD w/ S&H)
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Not going to lie, a single list in a vacuum like this does create more questions than answers. What was the opposition like? Aggregate Skill level? What were/was the missions? What did the match ups shake out to?
Opponents were Farsight Enclaves Tau (Brandon Brown), Harlequins (Ray Ahumada), Orks (Jeff Poole), and Chaos Space Marines (Richard Cozart, Loss). GT mission pack, skill level was high. From what I saw on the stream, it looked like most opponents chose to not kill the Ares or were incapable of doing so. My personal theory is that with Shadowkeepers it's just durable enough that people give up trying to kill the Ares, and since everyone has bought into "YoU hAvE To PlAy ThE oBjEcTiVeS" so hard no one (except Salamanders) is bringing enough firepower in their lists. I mean, the gold standard in 8th was "Can you drop a Knight in 1 turn?" and like you said Fezzik the Ares isn't that much more durable than one even with strat support.
Custodes got a lot of durability from PA, but I think it's being exaggerated right now cause no one is trying to kill anyone anymore. I think once more tournaments start up we're going to see a shift back to more "leafblower style" lists, though that's just my opinion.
I think it's hard to "catch" an ares, just like it's hard to catch a bike captain, and lock it down. You either shoot it out of the sky, or prey you can get a lucky combat phase. I just think it's a lot of points to basically tie into a gimmicky model that people are going to learn how to just shoot off the table in one turn. But by then, you may have dropped your troops and roasted a tank or two. But if you go second, and your opponent nails your big beautiful transport full of 1k of Terminators, you may have just lost turn 1. It's a risky strat, and if it pays off it's glorious, but people will spot it and prep for it. Hell, how many shots of full shooting would it take a Executioner to drop an Ares? Given all the strat support that Marines can muster?
I just want to see land raiders get buffed. Why does a Venerable Landraider cost almost the same as a Coronus?
Also, I wonder if an Orion wouldn't be a better Strategy now? Get in, drop elite murder squads, fly around and distract?
Very interesting list. There's no good way of scoring secondaries against it and it is very nicely killy. I like the inclusion of the two rhinos and sister squads, transports are really THAT GOOD.
Maybe I underrate the Ares. I need to see it in action I think. I'm interested he chose shadowkeepers here when he has 2 squads of termies. Would've thought dread host is nicer for double termie squads. Maybe he used vexilla homer twice per game?
Seems like it plays the objective really well despite the gigantic points sinks. I like it.
I reckon the Shadowkeepers strat Grim Resolve is pretty much a mandatory take for a list with an Ares, pop it every turn to drag that things life out as long as possible.
The battle reports I've seen with 2 units of termies either start with one on the board or even both depending on the board and opponent. Just barrel them up the middle. In trying 5 of each this weekend.
Is anyone else kinda amazed they are doing in person tournaments during a pandemic? I mean it boggles my mind. Unless the average unkempt table top gamer has suddenly become the Avatar of washed hands in the last 10 months, how is this happenening?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Is anyone else kinda amazed they are doing in person tournaments during a pandemic? I mean it boggles my mind. Unless the average unkempt table top gamer has suddenly become the Avatar of washed hands in the last 10 months, how is this happenening?
Not every country is the clusterfeth that is the United States.
THe UK is loosening restrictions in ways that are questionable, for the same reasons only with less insanity that the US has been bumbling about in the pandemic.
Since I can't be bothered looking through 158 pages I'm gonna post my question here, sorry if it has been asked before.
I'm having trouble deciding on Allarus or Aquilons. I'll mostly go up against SM or DG.
Any suggestions?
Also since we mostly play 1k games I kinda expect being crushed by eradicators and bladeguard veterans etc so any tips for a good 1K list would be nice The one I'm thinking of is:
Shield Captain on bike
Custodian sword and board x3
Praetors with salvo launchers x3
Allarus x3 OR Aquilons with gauntlet + twin adrathic x3
Totto wrote: Since I can't be bothered looking through 158 pages I'm gonna post my question here, sorry if it has been asked before.
I'm having trouble deciding on Allarus or Aquilons. I'll mostly go up against SM or DG.
Any suggestions?
Also since we mostly play 1k games I kinda expect being crushed by eradicators and bladeguard veterans etc so any tips for a good 1K list would be nice The one I'm thinking of is:
Shield Captain on bike
Custodian sword and board x3
Praetors with salvo launchers x3
Allarus x3 OR Aquilons with gauntlet + twin adrathic x3
thats over 900 pts already and only 10 dudes...
Aquilons are better unless you want to do character sniping. If you're going to try sniping, it won't help on the Death Guard since you're wounding on 5's. So my recommendation is the Aquilons.
Keep the Aquilons with Lastrum Bolters. You can use the 1CP strat from Psychic Awakening to double the shots.
Salvo Launchers can be useful sometimes, but with your list I'd recommend Hurricane Bolters. You're killing heavy armor in melee, not shooting. Use the Hurricane and Lstrum Bolters to clear anything in your path, then slam the rest.
Sword+Board and Jetbike Captain are good. Think about taking an Assassin or Inquisitor with your remaining points.
I've been thinking about bringing wardens to a friendly game, but even then they are just so lackluster compared to our other elite choices like allarus or aquilon. I just can't see a reason why you would run them right now.
What are your experiences with warden in 9th? Have any of you brought any warden recently? And what do you think would have to happen to make them viable again compared to our more superior options....a 5+++? More attacks?
Tiberias wrote: I've been thinking about bringing wardens to a friendly game, but even then they are just so lackluster compared to our other elite choices like allarus or aquilon. I just can't see a reason why you would run them right now.
What are your experiences with warden in 9th? Have any of you brought any warden recently? And what do you think would have to happen to make them viable again compared to our more superior options....a 5+++? More attacks?
5+++, 4W should do it if they don't already have 4W. I haven't used them in forever.
Wardens have the cheapest 4 attack models in our line up, and are relatively good at horde fighting with their survivability. But in 8th, they were almost as good as Allarus, given the cost. now in 9th with the buffs and strats going mostly to Allarus and Aquilons, Wardens are kinda bottom tier now. Hopefully they get a further points decrease to put them more in line with good elite options. Or just move them out of Elite Slot entirely. We have waaay too many same style elites. Who would bother taking anything but terminators or our lesser Dreadnaughts.
Wardens have no business being on a table in their current state unless they are counts as.
If wardens get a 5+++ right now and stay at their points cost, they'll be a fantastic unit and maybe be in contention with terminators. They could almost be seen as favourable/an alternative to guard squads as they get similar durability(depending on the weapon)+ are far more killy than base guard. A good take and hold unit.
Because right now terminators get 4W, a free deepstrike, a blast weapon and loads of CP potential for 10 points.
Night and day in terms of competitiveness.
It'd be great to see wardens get a buff though, would finally give me an excuse to buy some
See, my problem with the Wardens is that they are so easy to buff. Just give them A, better ranged options (a special grenade maybe) or b. give them the ability to get the allarus launcher as a weapon. They are distinct enough from Allarus so that last change wouldn't make too much difference. But honestly, giving wardens the ability for a blast dakka weapon would seriously increase their usefullness.
Right now they are the worst at everything, given the options. Allarus are better at character hunting, Aquillons are better at Monster/tank busting, Shield Guard are better at holding objectives, and Bikes are better for hordes.
Seriously, give them the ability to use launchers or some special Warden strat.
That being said I bought 2 boxes back in 8th, and they are essentially worthless to me now. I hope the new dex drops in 2020, so I can sell them on ebay for something. If nothing else, the axes are useful for bits.
Random question, and I'm not generally in this topic much (though I am actually considering starting a custodes army, which I'll return to later), but I figured this would be the most likely place to find someone who could help.
Anyone here own a Pallas? If so, could you measure the length of the 'nacelles' please? The overall width of the model would be useful too, if possible.
Niiru wrote: Random question, and I'm not generally in this topic much (though I am actually considering starting a custodes army, which I'll return to later), but I figured this would be the most likely place to find someone who could help.
Anyone here own a Pallas? If so, could you measure the length of the 'nacelles' please? The overall width of the model would be useful too, if possible.
The model is 131mm (5.16 inches) long in total, the nacelles covering the front part of the engine are 75mm long. The width of the model is about 85mm.
Niiru wrote: Random question, and I'm not generally in this topic much (though I am actually considering starting a custodes army, which I'll return to later), but I figured this would be the most likely place to find someone who could help.
Anyone here own a Pallas? If so, could you measure the length of the 'nacelles' please? The overall width of the model would be useful too, if possible.
The model is 131mm (5.16 inches) long in total, the nacelles covering the front part of the engine are 75mm long. The width of the model is about 85mm.
Thanks, appreciate it
While I'm here, is it possible (re: effective) to try and run a mech custodes list? I guess it would be Jetbikes, pallas, contemptors... maybe a big grav tank if its worthwhile
Niiru wrote: While I'm here, is it possible (re: effective) to try and run a mech custodes list? I guess it would be Jetbikes, pallas, contemptors... maybe a big grav tank if its worthwhile
Yes it is. So much so. And while no one wants admits it right now, "Leafblower" style lists will be the meta in 3 months.
The only non-mech thing I would include is a unit of terminators, they are simply the best choice to control board area with their strats. I think the best vehicles are (in order):
Telemon dreadnought
Caladius Grav tank
Pallas Grav attack
Ares gunship
Orion
Land raider
Galatus/Spear guy
Contempter
Bikes are always good, a large block with missiles and archeotech munitions will hurt vehicles bad, and hurricane bolters are always good.
Niiru wrote: While I'm here, is it possible (re: effective) to try and run a mech custodes list? I guess it would be Jetbikes, pallas, contemptors... maybe a big grav tank if its worthwhile
Yes it is. So much so. And while no one wants admits it right now, "Leafblower" style lists will be the meta in 3 months.
The only non-mech thing I would include is a unit of terminators, they are simply the best choice to control board area with their strats. I think the best vehicles are (in order):
Telemon dreadnought
Caladius Grav tank
Pallas Grav attack
Ares gunship
Orion
Land raider
Galatus/Spear guy
Contempter
Bikes are always good, a large block with missiles and archeotech munitions will hurt vehicles bad, and hurricane bolters are always good.
You seem to have missed out the achillus contemptor? (assuming your final contemptor is just the standard venerable). Though the orion and ares are so expensive in points, I'm surprised they beat contemptors (that are usually rated pretty highly!).
Edit: Also... bikes with missiles? I'm not seeing those
the Ares has recently become the lynchpin in a lot of high placing competitive lists. I and others expect that will slowly change when the AA of oposing armies get buffed. Then it will be a giant waste of 500 dollars. Terminators are also a staple of most lists. The Telemon remains one of our strongest units, but it also has stark vulnerabilities that will be exposed in time. A team of the new Multi-Melta SMs can down one in a single turn without spending half as much in points or CP. Right now our Homer strat is somewhat obvious to see coming, and without an oblivious and stupid opponent, we still rely on the same strategies as 8th. Get up close and punch them REALLY hard. That being said, we have almost zero answer to most hordes, MW spam armies, or massed high value shooting. (Multi Meltas and Aggressors etc)
Sorry I blanked on the Achillus and wrote “spear guy”. My bad.
For the bikes, now there is a 1 CP strategem to allow D6 damage weapons to roll 2 dice and pick the highest. It makes the melta missile reliable enough to be decent anti-armor.
With a mechstodes list, I'd definitely go for what's cool. I'm pretty sure it's confirmed that there are going to be updates to FW models, so they might change up the viability of certain units.
Anyway, right now, the telemon is the best FW model (and definitely the coolest) for the custodes, so consider at least getting one or two of those.
The other dreadnoughts are all ok. The grav vehicles are good, the massive ares gunship is pretty awesome.
I would definitely go for quite a few bikes, maybe a couple units of 3-5. Them and 2 captains, then vehicles. The hurricanes are always good, but the salvo missile is actually reallyy quite good now.
@Fezzik, Telemon’s are relatively survivable against 3-man Eradicators, even before you factor in strategems they get 4 hits, 2 wounds, and you save one with your 4++ for D6 damage. The Salamanders ones hit harder, but -1 to wound from Shadowkeepers is big, so is stopping all the re-rolls. Then the Eradicators die. If they didn’t come in from reserve and started on the table, they should already be dead.
Let’s say 9 Regular Eradicators show up, and blast a single Telemon. That’s 18 shots, 12 hits, 6 wounds, 3 unsaved. Even if they get 5 damage apiece, that’s still only 12.5 wounds after the 6++. And that is without a vexilla, -1 to wound, -1 damage strat or re-rolling any saves. If they brought in re-roll auras you can stop them, and get the bonus of whacking one of their characters who showed up within charge range of your army.
greyknight12 wrote: @Fezzik, Telemon’s are relatively survivable against 3-man Eradicators, even before you factor in strategems they get 4 hits, 2 wounds, and you save one with your 4++ for D6 damage. The Salamanders ones hit harder, but -1 to wound from Shadowkeepers is big, so is stopping all the re-rolls. Then the Eradicators die. If they didn’t come in from reserve and started on the table, they should already be dead.
Let’s say 9 Regular Eradicators show up, and blast a single Telemon. That’s 18 shots, 12 hits, 6 wounds, 3 unsaved. Even if they get 5 damage apiece, that’s still only 12.5 wounds after the 6++. And that is without a vexilla, -1 to wound, -1 damage strat or re-rolling any saves. If they brought in re-roll auras you can stop them, and get the bonus of whacking one of their characters who showed up within charge range of your army.
I will wager a box of Walmart model paints that We don't see the Telemon being a major center piece in 9th. Also, the Ares replacing it. I just don't see GW keeping the FW stuff viable. I am betting the Telemon sees further nerfs and cost increases. I have no way to prove any of this, but they are predictions, not statements of fact. I don't trust telling people to "buy a couple" of a set of models that costs almost as much as the rest of the army, and might not survive the FW changes.
Until then, yes, they are good. Far from our "Best unit" I think that goes to the Aquillons, or if the Ares shenanigans continue, the Ares.
So i actually tried a crazy Solar watch list on TTS just now.
CC on bike/w stratagist, sally forth, relic bike, dagger.
10 vertus preators with HB 5/w dagger
9 allarus termies one with dagger
4 shield guard
2000 points, 4 units.
Opponent had guard with a blood angel ally battalion.
Mephiston, smash captain, one squad of bladeguard, 2 scout squads, and some incursors for the BA.
2 astropaths, 2 guard squads, a squad of crusaders, 3 tank commanders, and 2 manticors for the guard. Oh and some scions.
He gave me first turn after hearing i wouldnt be able to advance and charge.
So i advanced the bikes up and Blood game vetted them before dumping 120 bolter shots into all his infantry with auto wounds.
Turn one i basically took out all the guardsmen, and half the incursors and 2 of the 3 bladeguard with the HB's.
Had also rolled a 6 on the advance for my allarus (which i kept on the board) and so had them run 13" into the unoccupied section of the board.
On his turn he gave his crusaders their 2++ and moved them up. He sent in smash captain and mephiston with the last blade guard and buffed his tanks with reroll's to hit.
as he starting shooting my bikes with all his tanks I used Emporer's auspice on them and he only managed to kill 4 of the bikes. I managed to tanglefoot o'l mephy and the smash captain and bladeguard took down 1 bike. I swung back, killing them both and he fought again with the captain killing another bike. I auto-passed morale so as to keep at least 4 bikes.
On my turn i managed to kill one of the tank commanders with the last 4 bikes and take out half the crusaders. Moving all my allarus into position for the next turn.
He killed the bikes off, and managed to take 1 wound off my CC with the rest of his army, but a single brave crusader held him up in combat.
He wasnt feeling good at this point, but with his deep striking scions he still had good board pressence and he wasnt horribly far down in points. Buf after meph whiffed on my CC he kinda gave up.
We walked through the remaining turns and due to some lucky manticor shots he took my shield guard out and ended up bringing the game very close.
@Einlazer I'm so glad someone finally ran the crazy list we were probably all thinking of! Only question I have is if you thought Solar Watch was the best Shield Host, I've always though Shadowkeepers since T6 on the bikes is kind of a break point for alot of weapons out there but sounds like you made that extra 6" of movement work for you.
I think the biggest issue with solar watch is that you are relying on bikes, which looking back all through 8th people realized couldnt win tournaments.
They are hands down the best overall unit in the game stat-wise, but are expensive and didnt have much stratagem support.
Considering how most armies focused on being able to take down durable stuff in 8th, bikes werent gonna stand up.
In 9th though, due to how important holding objectives are, your gonna see a whole lot more infantry running around. Bikes counter infantry pretty hard.
Solar watch can work, you just need to remember that it will be utterly crucial in the first 2 turns to remove at least 80% of your opponents infantry, because thats about all your gonna get with the bikes before they get taken out. Hilariously enough, White Scars will have a very rough time againgst solar watch. Outriders are a bit faster than our bikes, but just bounce off of them.
Im personally a big fan of Dread Host, but the solar watch are beautiful if you can actually get it all painted up.
Auric Aquilas, the bike character relic that gives +1 invul and reroll charges yeah? I usually use it with another biker running Eagles Eye for some nicely tough bike characters dashing around.
Match 1: Ultras vehicle heavy
This was an odd list and was hard-countered by mine. He had 2 inf squads, captain and lieutenant, a repulsor executioner and a redemptor dreadnought. Most of it bounced off my invu/armor and the 9-man squad chopped down the tank eventually while captains took out the rest. Sisters held objectives. Dominant victory, with lucky invu saves.
Match 2: 1k Sons, 'standard'
He had 2 terminator squads, 2 rubrics, ahriman, sorc on disc, tzaangors, chaos spawn and a maulerfiend. He deployed dick-first, so I decided to gamble on winning the roll and deployed dick-first too. Won the roll-off. Captains got both his hq's turn 1, was able to shut down casting with strategems and Sisters. Got lucky, but the result was a turn 1 win.
Match 3: Ultras inf heavy
Tigurius with invu removal, 4-5 squads of intercessors, a redemptor dreadnought and gravis captain. didn't know how to approach this, so decided to keep my distance. The castle was unapproachable. divided my forces in 2, and luckily he did the same. Managed to pull off a pincer maneuver, decimated most of his army in a couple of turns. Close until then, and if he didn't split, I don't know what I would have done. Lucky win.
Match 4: Necrons melee heavy list
This was a nightmare. 9 wraiths, ctaan shard, skorpekh destroyers + hq, some dude with a tachyon arrow thing, some immortals. The wraiths are a nightnare with those 3+. Got a better deploy on him - put my sisters up front, stodes right behind, and gave him turn 1. He rushed up, and I tanglefooted his charge and stopped the wraiths. Even with this, as I wiped out one group of wraiths, i couldnt get the other, and he spent a strategem to get reanimation on them. Rolled 4 dice, 5, 5, 5, 6. FML. Stodes got beaten down over a couple of turns in a clusterfeth of wraiths, skorpekhs and ctaan shard. It was looking OK points wise until I lost the stodes and a bike, then it was downhill fast.
All in all, for my very first outing with this new army, and without optimal troops, Stodes seem extremely promising and quite powerful. Very enjoyable to play, too. Feels like you've got raw power, and a trick up your sleeve for most opponents.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Wow, how far have we come when Two Ultra lists and a 1kSons list are the Easy stuff, and NECRONS are the hard part?
Trust me. As a primarily Necron player, the odds of getting all of them back (4 of them on 5+) are abysmal. When it happens, it can break a game open. But more often than not, you get 1, maybe 2 back, and then they die to the Custodes d3 weapons.
Call that a bad run of luck, but still, a good showing vs marines and 1ksons! Marines are a hard matchup.
GT win for Custodes with 1x4 Aquilons, triple Caladius and Ares! 2 squads of prosecutors, 1 guard, trajan and tanky allarus shield captain rounded the list off.
If you wanted to field 1 questoris and 2 armigers with your goldbois, what would you bring?
I feel like we're missing some AT - was thinking an errant and 2 warglaives, not that expensive and bring mobility and AT to the team
sacrifice on the rest of the army too big? Model count too low?
Errant's not bad but I think the RFBC is probably better than the Thermal now. So you should look at a Paladin or Crusader. Meta has shifted to more invulns so volume of fire is better and the AP doesn't get so wasted.
That said, a Warden with the Avenger Gatling Cannon might be better as the meta has also shifted towards elite infantry over vehicles.
Note: there are two major exceptions to this. HARLEQUINS and Sisters of Battle. Harlequins bring lots of weak vehicles spamming Haywire so Thermal is probably better there. Sisters use Exorcists which are T8 and just a 6++. So Thermal is probably better there.
Helverins are good Armigers to bring if you are looking at those. FW Moirax's are also extremely good.
Errant's not bad but I think the RFBC is probably better than the Thermal now. So you should look at a Paladin or Crusader. Meta has shifted to more invulns so volume of fire is better and the AP doesn't get so wasted.
That said, a Warden with the Avenger Gatling Cannon might be better as the meta has also shifted towards elite infantry over vehicles.
Yes... I would also highly recommend folks kit out their knights with AP-1/-2 guns. Muahahaha!
Custodes + Castellan is just about the most That Guy list I have seen in a local meta, and it's an easy way to have no one bother to play with you in a casual setting. It's never made it to the big tables for many reasons, least of which is it's not worth the points. Our Telemon is basically a better/cheaper knight, and we get to keep our keywords.
Its a single upgraded heavy bolter that can only be taken if the Heavy Intercessor unit takes their version of Stalker Bolt Rifles. Heavy 2 S5, AP2 D3. Theyre not spammable. At most there can be two in a squad that costs ~300 points or so.
Eihnlazer wrote: I think the biggest issue with solar watch is that you are relying on bikes, which looking back all through 8th people realized couldnt win tournaments.
They are hands down the best overall unit in the game stat-wise, but are expensive and didnt have much stratagem support.
Considering how most armies focused on being able to take down durable stuff in 8th, bikes werent gonna stand up.
In 9th though, due to how important holding objectives are, your gonna see a whole lot more infantry running around. Bikes counter infantry pretty hard.
Solar watch can work, you just need to remember that it will be utterly crucial in the first 2 turns to remove at least 80% of your opponents infantry, because thats about all your gonna get with the bikes before they get taken out. Hilariously enough, White Scars will have a very rough time againgst solar watch. Outriders are a bit faster than our bikes, but just bounce off of them.
Im personally a big fan of Dread Host, but the solar watch are beautiful if you can actually get it all painted up.
Bikes won several tournaments. But the meta changes, new codexes drop, and bikes didn't keep up. Which is just how 40k goes. Any suggestions made now are not going to be valid in half a year's time.
Marines are getting 3 damage heavy bolters now on t5 3w heavy intercessors....sigh.
Custodes were kinda fethed when they previewed 4 damage thunder hammers. So many of the meta combat marine choices rely on thunderhammers that halving the number of wounds that have to go through terminators really skews the points in favor of slam captains. Wulfen and death company also come with piles of thunderhammers and remain meta relevant. A squad of death company is going to absolutely delete a squad of terminators, even using transhuman, and has the benefit of marines having a lot more chaff and choices to push contesting objectives first to all the DC to stay in reserve longer than a custodes player can afford to keep his termies off the table.
Slam captain just make an awful matchup though. They'll do some real attrition for not too serious investment in points, and a super blood angel one has a good chance of wiping a squad.
Also, heavy intercessors are just better Sags, yes. XD
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, like there's a lot of thunderhammer sergeants too that will add a bit of attrition just fighting intercessors.
Im frankly much more scared of the 3 shot Heavy Meltas on the Speeders, that also by the way have some primaris BS krak missile launchers on the back. So they took a Repulsor, a Whilwind, an Eradicator, and a Land Speeder, made them all hate feth, and they had an equally hateful 10w t6 baby with fly and a 16" move.. Yeah, I'm not liking my 10 new Shield guardians for holding objectives now. I'm guessing 175pts for the new land speeders, that with 3 shots of S8 AP4 D6+2 damage plus whatever their missiles get them that are flat 3d each, thats a dead squad of anything on an objective, sans bikes.
They're too easy to kill. I don't think the meta will shift around the speeders unless the marine codex or a supplement has a number of tricks to make them survive. 10w of t6 at 3 plus with now invuls is easy for even custodes shooting to get through.
I think the meta for marines will remain mobs of elite troops aggressively costed.
Right, They are easy to wipe off the board, but not before they run up and toast that squad of terminators, or the Telemon. Or run the guardians off the objective. I'm honestly not sure why GW is deciding to just level up all the damage of weapons across the board. What was "too difficult to kill" that deserved 3 shot meltas that essentially do 3d6+6 damage? That is potentially a dead baneblade. For likely half the cost. I don't understand the direction GW is going, unless Custodians and other elite factions get doubled wounds. 10 wound Custodians anyone?
I mean, it's gonna be a bummer for custodes comparing weapon damages until custodes get an update in... a year or so. Just gotta hope custodes get a weapon update when we eventually get attention.
At this point, I won't lie. I'm taking Sisters with Bolters for holding objectives.
Why spend 150 points on Guardians when you can just hold objectives with the Sisters for 50points a pop? I'd rather have cheap chaff then expensive chaff. And now even our best units are chaff to the new SM Toys.
I wonder if they will give us some way to take more than 3 squads.....
Anyone else hopeful for some small tweaks and buffs for our forgeworld units in the new imperial armor compendium? Maybe even the achillus becomes playable with some tweaks, just give it more attacks and a 4++ or something and it would be really interesting.
What would you like to see?
Tiberias wrote: Anyone else hopeful for some small tweaks and buffs for our forgeworld units in the new imperial armor compendium? Maybe even the achillus becomes playable with some tweaks, just give it more attacks and a 4++ or something and it would be really interesting.
What would you like to see?
I think that's the most likely rescue source given marine buffs. If Sag go up in wounds or something in there it's a good sign.
Does this mean SOS flamer units now get a 12" flamer? So a squad of 10 of them can be Golden lighted to 9" out? Or do they still not get access to out strats?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Does this mean SOS flamer units now get a 12" flamer? So a squad of 10 of them can be Golden lighted to 9" out? Or do they still not get access to out strats?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Does this mean SOS flamer units now get a 12" flamer? So a squad of 10 of them can be Golden lighted to 9" out? Or do they still not get access to out strats?
They don't have the right keywords do they?
Sisters cannot be teleported in with FGLTC. They can be brought on via Strategic Reserves.
Also I am really glad to see all their melee options remained D1. Those early leaks of flat 3 damage options and flat 2 damage swords/mauls scared the hell out of me.
Although a Baneblade with 10HBsl, might now be a better plan than 10 Heavy Flamers? That would be an ugly thing to try and take down no matter the force.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Also I am really glad to see all their melee options remained D1. Those early leaks of flat 3 damage options and flat 2 damage swords/mauls scared the hell out of me.
The only multi damage melee weapons shown off in datasheets were the Power Fist, Relic Blade, MC Sword, Chainfist and Thunder Hammer. Basic axes, swords and mauls were never going to D2.
Would it be too That Guyish to bring a ShadowSword/Custodes List to a local Meta? I have never been able to field this thing once. I bought it just to build it and paint it, and it's just sitting on my book case. But I would love to Break out Zappy in a list of Custodian Shield guards, Captains with shield, and bikes.
Sterling191 wrote: Its a single upgraded heavy bolter that can only be taken if the Heavy Intercessor unit takes their version of Stalker Bolt Rifles. Heavy 2 S5, AP2 D3. Theyre not spammable. At most there can be two in a squad that costs ~300 points or so.
They seem to be quite evil anyways. On the datasheet for the heavy intercessors it says every model in the 7 PL unit is equipped with a heavy bolt rifle. It then lists stats for the following weapons:
Executor bolt rifle
Executor heavy bolter
Heavy bolt rifle
Heavy bolter
Hellstorm bolt rifle
Hellstorm heavy bolter
Then it says:
If no model in this unit is equipped with a heavy bolter you can take one of the following options:
* All models in the unit can have their heavy bolt rifles replaced with 1 hellstorm bolt rifle each.
* All models in the unit can have their heavy bolt rifles replaced with 1 executor bolt rifle each.
And then:
For every 5 models in this unit, 1 heavy intercessors heavy bolt rifle can be replaced with 1 heavy bolter, 1 heavy intercessors heavy auto bolt rifle(where is this in the listed weapons? is this the hellstorm bolt rifle?) can be replaced with 1 hellstorm heavy bolter,
or 1 heavy intercessors heavy stalker bolt rifle (or this? or is this the executor bolt rifle?) can be replaced with 1 executor heavy bolter
Besides winning the award for the most uses of heavy and bolt/bolter in a datasheet, I find it very confusing. To me it seems i can either have 4 heavy bolt rifles and a heavy bolter OR 4 hellstorm bolt rifles and a hellstorm heavy bolter
OR 4 executor bolt rifles and one executor heavy bolter. The last one being 4 shots at str5 ap-2 and 2dmg and 1str5 -2 and 3 dmg for potentially 11 dmg at range 42.
Compared to Sagittarum, i think these guys have the same dmg output and resilience. Fewer shots, worse BS (and heavy weap) for BS4 but dmg 2 weaps, vs more shots, better BS but dmg 1 weapons. In a shootout i think the Heavy Intercessors would win, due to having 5 guys with 3 wounds vs 3 guys.
Totto wrote: To me it seems i can either have 4 heavy bolt rifles and a heavy bolter OR 4 hellstorm bolt rifles and a hellstorm heavy bolter OR 4 executor bolt rifles and one executor heavy bolter?
The Hellstorm and Executor are the Heavy Intercessor variant of the Auto Bolt Rifle and Stalker Bolt Rifle respectively.
Yes, its a convoluted wording (and its actually incorrect because it uses deprecated weapon names). What it means is that you must take the Heavy Bolter variant that corresponds to the armament of the squad. IE: If you take the Heavy Bolt Rifle, you can only take a single Heavy Bolter per 5 marines. Likewise if you take the Hellstorm Bolt Rifles, you have to take the Hellstorm Heavy Bolter. You're still only getting one D3 weapon per 5 models, and only if you take the single shot variant of the basic rifle.
Custodes should be far more terrified of Heavy Plasma Cannons.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Would it be too That Guyish to bring a ShadowSword/Custodes List to a local Meta? I have never been able to field this thing once. I bought it just to build it and paint it, and it's just sitting on my book case. But I would love to Break out Zappy in a list of Custodian Shield guards, Captains with shield, and bikes.
Wouldn't bother me in the least. Those things go down fast, iirc.
Thinking of souping in some firepower from Admech. 4 kastelans and some change
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Would it be too That Guyish to bring a ShadowSword/Custodes List to a local Meta? I have never been able to field this thing once. I bought it just to build it and paint it, and it's just sitting on my book case. But I would love to Break out Zappy in a list of Custodian Shield guards, Captains with shield, and bikes.
Wouldn't bother me in the least. Those things go down fast, iirc.
Thinking of souping in some firepower from Admech. 4 kastelans and some change
Does this mean that in the right cover, they ignore AP2?
Yes, that's right. Effectively, the shield gives you a +1 to your armor save rolls. So you're always 1D6+1. Cover gives a different +1. Since there are two different sources for bonuses, they stack (and unlike Hits/Wounds aren't capped at -1/+1). So in cover you're 1D6+2. AP-2 gives you a -2 to your roll, so you're still 1D6+0 on a 2+ save characteristic. You need AP-3 to get forced to an invuln.
Edit Note: The shield makes no mention of the shooting phase too, which means you can also ignore AP-1 in the Fight phase and AP-2 in the Fight phase IF the model is in Heavy Cover and the attacker did not charge (see rules for Heavy Cover).
I don't see this as being THAT major a change for a few reasons:
1. Custodes infantry don't spend a lot of time in cover, sniping. so We likely won't get the heavy cover bonus anyway. Besides, who ever puts objective in heavy cover?
2. If you are using sword and board as the new primary infantry, which is at least advisable, you likely won't be doing much with them except camping objectives. Your transports are too costly to waste on Guardians when they could be transporting terminators, flags, SCs, or naughts.
3. finally, if the rest of these changes to weapons go through, We'll still be taking the Invuln save everytime, because It'll be the same thing kicking our butts in 9th as in 8th. Massed high value shooting, (Eradicators, Melta Speeders, S6+ AP3/4 D2-3 weapons that will still get through and wipe them out. Or just straight up mortal wounds. This just makes us harder to kill be massed low value shooting, which was never a problem we had.
I may be a pessimist but I don't expect to start seeing 3x5 Shield Guardians in every list. Or Even 3x3. They don't really do anything other than sit in one place and not die. And 9th is about mobility and objectives.
Guys, I presumably already know the answer, which is - well, tough luck.
I just lost 2 games, one 100 VP to 0 and the other getting tabled T1. Supremely frustrating.
But I'd like some advice on how to deal with harlequins. Its just 500 pts in a crusade narrative setting, but I dont see this changing at like 1000 pts or above...
The problem is Shadowseers in transports.
The transport can move 22", disembark and has like a 30" movement range T1.
Afterwards he just sits there, and if the dice are nice, casts 3 psychic powers dealing around 10 MW in 1 turn. Trying to deny a 11 pt smite is pointless (which also happened twice).
Then a few Fusion pistols afterwards and you have lost 2 thirds of your army to a single model.
Not the pistol, but psychic powers. Smite, Mirror of Minds, Shards of Light. You cannot hide with that movement range, the troupe in the transport add a few fusion pistols and pop go the custodes. It is very, very frustrating to be pasted so thoroughly not once, but twice.
But I see, I said to a single model - well technically the fusions wipe off the scraps.
Perhaps it would be useful if you detail the lists and tone down the exaggerations so everyone can assist you to analyse what happened.
A full boat of 5 fusions should only kill one custodian on average. And thats before you consider storm shields or -1 vexillas etc. All I can guess from what you've described is that you had 2 games full of absolutely terrible luck. The chances of a properly built Custodes army being tabled turn 1 are astronomically low, even by Harlequins.
Spartacus wrote: All I can guess from what you've described is that you had 2 games full of absolutely terrible luck.
Effectively this. A super-smite is a 6/36 chance. Each of the other powers you've described are 21/36 casts (notwithstanding how theyve got a 3rd power unless they've been seriously burning through games), one of which does d3 mortals, the other that is hilariously convoluted to calculate but has a significant chance of doing nothing. If they were truly putting out 10+ mortals per casting phase, it was an exceedingly rare set of results.
Those weren't actually exaggerations... this is what happened.
I had my shield-captain in the back with 3 Sagittarum Guard. The allarus in deepstrike so I can catch something and not play ring around the rosey.
I gave him T1, knowing that I would basically do nothing if I ho go first. Shadowseer drove up in a transport, cast a 10 power smite on the sag guard - 3 MW, fnp didn't catch one. Mirror of mind went off, failed the deny, captain lost 4MW. Again no Fnp took. Fusions took another Guard with 3D. I killed the shadowseer in assault and a few troupes. Got mobbed up in his turn, allarus came in, failed the charge, failed the re roll and I lost 100 - 0.
Second game was similar. I don't recall the extreme details...11 power smite, 11 power shards of light, hallucinogens launcher caused a further d3 wounds. Then the 5 fusions and other shooting did the rest before the allarus could come in.
So on avg I suffered like 10 mw on avg in 1 turn with 15 on the table.
Afaik a Shadowseer has smite and 2x phantasmancy, no?
Oin the end, I got boned HARD by dice. Twice. How refreshing...
Thairne wrote: Well that is good to know and an honedt mistake in his part. So you helped a great deal already!
Just checking but are you aware of the new rules for Custodes which were released in the War of the Spider book?
If not there are some stratagems in there which could certainly help survive the blow from enemy psykers. Custodes get a stratagem which allows you to deny any psychic power on a roll of 4+ if they are targeted. And if you take a unit of Sisters of silence, they get another similar one which works on a 3+.
Not to mention all of the other great options from shield hosts and the new captain-commander system.
Also did you use the Teleport homer strat when your Allarus teleported in? I'd highly recommend getting a Vexilua Praetor and doing that so your expensive unit doesn't sit around doing nothing for too long.
Well so that "hope" tanked pretty quick.
Vessel of Fate, a Stratagem, allows the Shadowseer to cast another psychic power. So no mistake.
I was faintly aware but some fethup with my dropbox didnt allow me to access the ebook from my mobile device and since this was my first game against anything with psykers I remembered the strat, but thought I have to do a "real" deny the witch. And against a 10+ roll that would've been pretty rare. A 4+ would have been more useable indeed...
Didnt know a SoS unit unlocks another stratagem... That might taking one pretty useful alone for that.
I couldnt fit a vexila in at 500 pts, but I definately have 2 already sitting around, painted, one as an allarus and a standard praetor for that.
So, not going to lie, but right now the 500 pt game is hard to play for us, especially against psyker heavy forces. But honestly, in a 500pt game, if you are losing "half your force" to smites and stuff turn 1, you are not playing your new stratgems. Like others have said, we can flat out deny on a 4+ now, so don't save your CP for some elusive trick on turn 3, just survive turn 1.
Also, Elday (of any variety) are one of our worst match-ups. Don't expect a lot of fun from that game.
Yeah the unavailabilty of stratagems screwed me over hard in addition to the dice.
I did some mathhammer and it turns out, if I use a Culexus at 750pts, I can reduce his chance to get off a critical power to 14% using the 4+, like a 11 power smite, with the other strat "saved" for a possible low roll for a Deny the Witch test.
That at least would have given me a fighting chance, but there still was no way of me winning with the mobility the transports gave him to control objectives. Any objective based mission feels like an autoloss, especially at that point level.
I also agree with the worst matchup - but luckily the other players are SoB and SW, which runs way better in my favor.
Thairne wrote: Well so that "hope" tanked pretty quick.
Vessel of Fate, a Stratagem, allows the Shadowseer to cast another psychic power. So no mistake.
I was faintly aware but some fethup with my dropbox didnt allow me to access the ebook from my mobile device and since this was my first game against anything with psykers I remembered the strat, but thought I have to do a "real" deny the witch. And against a 10+ roll that would've been pretty rare. A 4+ would have been more useable indeed...
Didnt know a SoS unit unlocks another stratagem... That might taking one pretty useful alone for that.
I couldnt fit a vexila in at 500 pts, but I definately have 2 already sitting around, painted, one as an allarus and a standard praetor for that.
In my opinion, opponents can see the Teleport Homer strat coming from a mile away and play around it so it doesn't deserve the hype it gets on this board. If you try it, let us know (especially let us know if your opponent knows about the stratagem and what it can do beforehand).
You can do the 4+ deny strat after trying to deny the witch (or you can choose not to deny the witch and still use the 4+ strat, the point is that you get to see the result, if any, before deciding whether to use the 4+ strat). Knowing odds of beating a psyker power are important in deciding whether you should deny or not. In general, you have a less than 50% chance of denying anything that rolled a 7+.
There is a warlord trait to deny with a +1 as well. If you face psyker heavy armies a lot it may be worth it.
Sisters can help with Eldar but they may not be too useful against most other armies (maybe daemons?). If you're making a TAC list be careful.
At 500 points, an 'optimal' TAC probably looks something like:
HQ: Shield-Captain on Jetbike (Hurricane Bolter, you want lots of Hurricane Bolters if possible when fighting Harlies cause they're all invulns/1W).
Troop: 3x Sword+Board or Saggitarum (depends if you want to be hard to move off an objective or, again, lots of bolter fire).
Troop: 3x Sword+Board or Saggitarum again.
If you want to run your terminators though, the Jetbike Captain needs to turn into an Allarus and then you should be able to squeeze them in (as you probably know).
If you're running Allarus and MW are giving you a problem, consider starting them on the board and using Unleash the Lions. Then the MW can't spill over from one model to another.
Just for this 500 point Harlie scenario, consider using Valerian and Aleya as your HQ. Aleya gives you access to the Sisters strats without taking any other Sisters (and is a mini-Culexus Assassin herself). Valerian isn't great but he'll be functional at that level.
That is some very good advice and a lot food for thought.
As I mentioned I run in a Crusade context and currently run
Shield Captain with Veiled Blade, Stormshield
3xSagittarum Guard
3xAllarus /w Castellan Axes
That list I deprived from a "target" list I had in mind when I started Custodes just a few weeks ago
Said Shield-Captain (ofc without the veiled blade)
Shield-Captain in Allarus TA Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike
3x3 Sagittarum Guard
5x Allarus /w Castellan Axes
5x Vertus Praetors
1x Telemon Dreadnought with Arachnus Stormcannons
I then dumped it down to a "core" at 500 pts from which I want to build up.
So I have the models available (though not yet painted which would give me all matters of sarcastic comments if I fielded those) but I can do a second Sagittarum quickly, add them to the Order of Battle and run a more troop heavy list like you proposed. I think I have enough Supply Limit left to add those in at least.
Thairne wrote: That is some very good advice and a lot food for thought.
As I mentioned I run in a Crusade context and currently run
Shield Captain with Veiled Blade, Stormshield
3xSagittarum Guard
3xAllarus /w Castellan Axes
That list I deprived from a "target" list I had in mind when I started Custodes just a few weeks ago
Said Shield-Captain (ofc without the veiled blade)
Shield-Captain in Allarus TA Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike
3x3 Sagittarum Guard
5x Allarus /w Castellan Axes
5x Vertus Praetors
1x Telemon Dreadnought with Arachnus Stormcannons
I then dumped it down to a "core" at 500 pts from which I want to build up.
So I have the models available (though not yet painted which would give me all matters of sarcastic comments if I fielded those) but I can do a second Sagittarum quickly, add them to the Order of Battle and run a more troop heavy list like you proposed. I think I have enough Supply Limit left to add those in at least.
Huh, I'm not as familiar with Crusade rules (I'm almost exclusively a tournament player). Let me say this before you upend the house; you *can* win with what you've got. Nothing says you need a bleeding edge optimal list (especially since your opponent doesn't have one either from the sounds of it). 'Optimal' can be relative too as I'm mostly building for scoring GT 2020 secondaries.
*In the current tournament meta* your eventual list is solid. The Telemon might want to switch to Illiastus Accelerators because there is a focus on heavy-infantry over vehicles, but a Crusade meta may be different. 5x Allarus can use both Superior Fire Patterns and their character targeting stratagem do an inordinate amount of assassination at close range. Note that Stooping Dive makes it so the enemy *can't fight the Jetbikes back* if it charged. So they can counter-charge and remain punch free (9th has odd wording in the 'Select Targets' section that makes this possible).
If I were to take your current list and fight that Eldar player, I would switch to the warlord trait for deny the witch (if I am allowed to do pre-game selection of WT like in 8th, tournament 9th you can't anymore). If I can't switch it, Superior Creation is probably the better trait for the improved FnP which helps with MW. Use my deny the witch strat whenever it's a 6 or less and dealing MW to me. Use the 4+ strat when it's 7 or over (like when he rolls 11+ to Smite). Probably run myself as Shadowkeepers or Solar Watch (start the Allarus on the board if Solar Watch). You can then Move 7", Advance and fire the Rapid Fire portion of the axes at -1 to Hit. May get some chip damage through.
For positioning, the goal is to keep the Smite on the Sag guard so they want to be closest. If your opponent is using transports (tournament Harlies usually don't I believe) you can use Salvo Launchers instead of Hurricane Bolters on Jetbikes (once you have them). Should blow them out of the water.
An important distinction for your list to keep in mind is you don't want an over-redundancy in roles. If the Telemon is going anti-heavy infantry (Illiastus) you can put Salvo Launchers on the Jetbikes to help with armor. If the Telemon is going anti-armor (Arachnus) then use Hurricane Bolters to take out infantry. Once you move fast, however, you can use melee to bring down armor and switch to double anti-infantry to blast open pathways to get to it (Illiastus+Hurricane Bolter).
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So at 500 points, you may just want to go ham with full bikes and a Telemon. Also, why take a SC with a shield?
On a non-crusade level, I figured with just 3 man Sagittarum to "protect" him, the planned Allarus and Dawneagle being offensively minded I was pretty sure he would be targeted early and often. So I made him very defensive to move around with a Sagittarum "castle" whereas the most use for him would be the rerolling aura for those all around and heroicly intervene.
On a narrative scale, this makes him the battle field commander which adds 2 CP (-2 if slain) and the Strategic Mastermind Commander trait (with the Superior Creation WLT). I have enough kit left to build a different loadout later on.
Those things are locked on the first time you basically play the unit and cannot be changed.
The Telemon is a bit of a struggle for me to fit in so far tbh, I currently only have him planned in 1500 pts upwards - running him with Illiastus however makes him just that bit cheaper that I need to make him viable.
Audustum wrote:
Very sound advice, tyvm! I didnt even consider that the jetbikes were basically immune - but it makes sense!
Crusade differs from tournament in some major ways.. firstly, you cannot switch around units at will. They stay as they are, with wargear and especially unit size. You can switch wargear through some other points ressource, but that cuts into some other benefits you can get.
The same ressource can be used to purchase WLT, Relics and Commander Traits for EVERY character you run without a cost of CP, so you can have a defensive Shield-Captain in the backline, a all-seeing Annihilator/unstoppable destroyer Allarus Captain and a Swift as the Eagle Dawneagle Captain with Radiant Mantle. And then add some other inane stuff to it like +1" for charge and advance moves for the Allarus.
I dont HAVE to uppend the house as you say, but since those all are units I need to get done and on the board for the eventual 2k finale and inbetween it really is not much of a bother. It basically just switched around what I need to paint next My original plan was to bring the Allarus up to 5 man at 750 and those are close to done and painted, so getting Sag Guard instead is not a major shakearound for the next game, which wont be earlier then next week. I did however notice that I need a bit more "dakka" and speed
In my second game, I learned fast and placed the Sag Guard closer to the enemy. They did intercept the smite, but, well, didn't end helping since I didn't know about the stratagems basically. Since then I cheated a bit and added the stratagems to Battlescribe so I have datacards in one hand and the other strats on my printout I'll get the Illiastus (and some fists too) and add them to may painting backlog soon
Even then I am willing to bet that bikes are core for Custodes, as they are explicitly mentioned for SMs. I bet this is more for things like Telemons, or the 3 Tanks and Trajann basecamp that was super prevelent in 8th. Also a issue where a HW would sit in the back and just give auras to a death ball of Heavy Artillery like Whirlwinds. I don't see this being a massive issue in 9th. This is a good change.
, my experience with 9th so far is that you really need a split of shooty vehicles to hold rear objectives and do the damage from far away, and squads who can push onto the mid field and enemy held objectives to hold them without being swarmed.
