A few examples, and that's just the Custodes range. Not to mention the FW stuff will be worst quality and be harder to work with, as well as containing less option/spares.
I mean they charge £17 for 5x heads and 5x guns on the Sagittarum upgrade kit for goodness sake!
Except for the Dread comparrison? You mean except for the best unit in our entire faction? And our only non-land raider transports available to us? I can see you doing a counts as for the Ven Contemptor as a Telemon, they are both 60 bases, but the telemon is a lot taller, and will get true line of sighted now more in 9th, so it's modeling for advantage. What is there that GW sells that could "Counts as" one of the flying transports? A Stormraven? I honestly don't know what the closest possible counts as unit is to the FW flyers. Then there are Sag Guard and Aquillon Terms. You again can't compare the two to their GW counterparts. Allarus are hot garbage right now, and the Aquillons are clearly one of our top 3 units in the faction. (pending potential FW points nerf)
But if you think that paying FW prices for the ability to be even slightly competitive, I don't know where you are at, except you are made of money and don't live in real world economic spheres.
In my personal opinion the level of detail and intricacy of our FW dreadnoughts would warrant a higher price than the standard plastic ones IF and only if the quality of the cast resin parts was almost flawless, which many times it isn't.
Broken parts, lots of slippage etc. are just some of the issues and I'm speaking with experience here.
Though the customer service of forgeworld is usually great, and they will usually immediately replace any faulty parts. Though at that price range it should not happen in the first place.
As for rules value, I think it would be a fair argument to say that having half of our model range only available at forgeworld is a problem, especially for new players trying to get into custodes. Though with our new updates I think it is entirely possible to make decent lists with just games workshop plastic custodes models.
I fully understand people being deterred by forgeworld prices, but on the other hand it is a one time investment in a centerpiece model like the telemon, which you'll probably have and keep forever.
I myself am just glad that we even have these forgeworld options, even though they are so expensive. I mean without it we would have the same model variety like harlequins....
I think running 1 single Telemon would be a waste of that model. It would instantly get shot off the table by any opponent with even half a clue. Oh, that giant model that can totally devestate my forces? Priotity Threat engaged.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I think running 1 single Telemon would be a waste of that model. It would instantly get shot off the table by any opponent with even half a clue. Oh, that giant model that can totally devestate my forces? Priotity Threat engaged.
Well sure, a telemon will be a high priority target, but with a vexilla nearby and the new half dmg strat it's not that easy to remove.
I play mostly one telemon in my lists and it has been really durable even before our psychic awakening buffs...now I am by no means a competitive tournament player, but your statement of it being shot off the board immediately is a bit hyperbolic.
I also disagree, that running a single one is a waste of that models, but that boils down to personal preference and playstile I guess.
Deep striking a Telemon with a 3D6 pick lowest + rerollable charge straight into a unit and then popping the half damage strat when they fire at you after combat ends seems pretty good.
I reckon the Telemon will never be a waste of points as long as they don't nerf the half damage strat. Even one of them will be able to soak up a crazy amount of firepower.
I'm really looking forward to running 2 of them with the double fist build and teleporting them straight into (probable) assaults turn 2.
I compared a telemon with two fists and one with a storm cannon and a fist. i use 9th ed. rules as far as we know them.
The results are:
5 attacks against T8 3+ --> 13.89 dmg (two fists give you one more attack. )
4 attacks against T8 3+ --> 11.11 dmg
The 8" flamer is very situational so i assume you can fire it once before going into melee. And i will ignore 1 flamer because both have at least one.
So 2.78 or 25% more dmg in melee but no anti tank range attacks.
Shooting the storm cannon in melee makes 3 dmg and 3.75 if not in melee.
Shooting the extra flamer in melee will do 1.48 dmg If you're not fight knights the Telemon with two fists makes only 4.12 more dmg in one turn when fighiting a tank.
If you teleport the telemon with the two fists in it will probably not be in charge range to a tank because of a screen.
The fist and cannon telemon can start doing dmg in the fist turn.
If we assume the Telemon makes it in to melee with a tank in turn 3 the telemon with the two fists will make 13.89 + 1.48 = 15.37 dmg to the tank.
The telemon with one fist will do 11.25 by shooting in turn 1 2 and 3 and 11.11 in melee in turn 3 so 22.36
All this means one fist is much better. And i don't think you should take double fists excpet for fun.
So, not going to lie, but in 9th edition a team of telemon can drop a knight in a single turn if properly buffed, for less than 600 points and a few CP. or one can drop it to it's lowest bracket.
That being said if I were a knight player I would be scared. They no longer get Calculated Targeting unless GW makes them exempt from the overwatch restrictions to modifiers.
Yeah +1 attack for the extra Caestus doesn’t outperform the storm cannon. You can run two fists if you want, looks cool and still does it’s job (prob gonna be Dread Host right?).
Right now I’m thinking a patrol along these lines:
Trajann
SC with axe (all seeing annihilator, unstoppable destroyer, Admonimortis)
6 guard (all shield or mix, not sure yet)
6 guard
Allarus +1 attack Vexilla
7 Allarus
That’s like 1600ish so depending on points increases I can either add the Telemon or add more guard. Option to go with strategic mastermind if i feel I need more CP which seems likely. Right now Allarus are a superb unit, they went from being decent (although arguably competing with Wardens etc.) to a really, really good choice.
Alternatively could take a bike SC with Superior Creation, Indomitable Constitution & Auric gives us T6 9W 2+ 3++ 5+++
Send it after thunderfire cannons and the like.
A few examples, and that's just the Custodes range. Not to mention the FW stuff will be worst quality and be harder to work with, as well as containing less option/spares.
I mean they charge £17 for 5x heads and 5x guns on the Sagittarum upgrade kit for goodness sake!
He's got a point though, irrelevant discussion is why these threads are perceived as such an inaccessible mess. Honestly if most of what gets discussed is peoples outrage over FW pricing, and these threads are going to be banned anyway, I'm about ready to move on from dakka.
Spartacus wrote: He's got a point though, irrelevant discussion is why these threads are perceived as such an inaccessible mess. Honestly if most of what gets discussed is peoples outrage over FW pricing, and these threads are going to be banned anyway, I'm about ready to move on from dakka.
I see what you mean, but if this thread was exclusively raw tactics, it’d be dead. .
Imo these ‘megathreads’ make the most sense, acting as a sort of community hub for Custodes players. Where are people supposed to post if they want to discuss, for instance, the aesthetics of a particular Custodes model?
If all the non-tactics discussions for each army ends up being posted as individual topics on the main forum, that would be insane clutter.
Spartacus wrote: He's got a point though, irrelevant discussion is why these threads are perceived as such an inaccessible mess. Honestly if most of what gets discussed is peoples outrage over FW pricing, and these threads are going to be banned anyway, I'm about ready to move on from dakka.
I see what you mean, but if this thread was exclusively raw tactics, it’d be dead. .
Imo these ‘megathreads’ make the most sense, acting as a sort of community hub for Custodes players. Where are people supposed to post if they want to discuss, for instance, the aesthetics of a particular Custodes model?
If all the non-tactics discussions for each army ends up being posted as individual topics on the main forum, that would be insane clutter.
General chat? I'm actually in favor of making things more specific. It is sometimes annoying to see discussion and then find out it's just pricing or painting (things that don't really interest me). It's one of the reasons I've been such a big fan of r/warhammercompetitive.
Part of me just wants to go full blob: Max squad of bikes, max squad of Allarus, HQ and min troops squad for fun. There is probably something still to be said for MSU (5-man) to keep blast weapons from being as efficient though.
greyknight12 wrote: Part of me just wants to go full blob: Max squad of bikes, max squad of Allarus, HQ and min troops squad for fun. There is probably something still to be said for MSU (5-man) to keep blast weapons from being as efficient though.
It depends how point increases shake out, but I was theorizing something like 5 Aquilon, 5 Jetbikes, 1 Saggitarum, Jetbike Captain, Allarus Captain and some extras in a Patrol+Vanguard for 9th. Run the terminators as Dread Host and the Jetbikes as something else. Would keep you under blasts and still present some flexible firepower.
On the other hand, the Forgeworld indexes could change everything. A new Codex would too but we don't know how long that will be.
Spartacus wrote: He's got a point though, irrelevant discussion is why these threads are perceived as such an inaccessible mess. Honestly if most of what gets discussed is peoples outrage over FW pricing, and these threads are going to be banned anyway, I'm about ready to move on from dakka.
They're not inaccessible.
In any case, the fact that forgeworld is a requirement to get the most out of a custodes force is worthy of comment on.
So with the new terrain rules, is it considered modelling for advantage if my bikes are slightly lower profile? (Angling the spears down, not putting them as high on the up on the base stick). As I understand the new terrain rules, and I am likely wrong, the whole unit doesn't have to be on the terrain, just part of the unit. So If my spear tip is in the terrain, is the unit in terrain and thus -1?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So with the new terrain rules, is it considered modelling for advantage if my bikes are slightly lower profile? (Angling the spears down, not putting them as high on the up on the base stick). As I understand the new terrain rules, and I am likely wrong, the whole unit doesn't have to be on the terrain, just part of the unit. So If my spear tip is in the terrain, is the unit in terrain and thus -1?
Models generally aren't in terrain unless their base is
I thought the new Obscuration rule was if part of the model was "obscured" then the unit counted as being in cover. Granted this was from a spikeybits twitch stream, and I admit i likely misheard it. They said it was basically back to 4th, whatever that meant?
But If we are talking tactics, can Custodes now leap frog from cover to cover, and then charge? I mean this is essentially what we have to do now, but I currently run a mostly biker army, and don't see how the terrain rules could positively affect Custodes?Being the largest models for troops in the game, I can't see the benefit for us.
Spartacus wrote: He's got a point though, irrelevant discussion is why these threads are perceived as such an inaccessible mess. Honestly if most of what gets discussed is peoples outrage over FW pricing, and these threads are going to be banned anyway, I'm about ready to move on from dakka.
They're not inaccessible.
In any case, the fact that forgeworld is a requirement to get the most out of a custodes force is worthy of comment on.
1. I agree they're not, Ive argued as such with those who wish to ban these threads.
2. That is not what is being argued though, we all know that FW is essential to a good Custodes army right now. Essentially what is being discussed is an interpretation of what the meaning of "too much" is. If FW resin models cost 20% or 70% more than regular GW plastic ones it is quite reasonable to assess this as either 'just fine' or 'too much' depending on your point of view. Its entirely subjective but being stated as fact. Arguing over semantics over the internet isn't productive or relevant to custodes.
I feel like everybody is talking about 9th, but what about tactics in 8th? Usually the codex that came last each edition has been the best. What does the PA-rules say about our Custodes and/or Imperial soup-army? What will help those who are not willing to spend hundreds of €£¥$ in new books - again? (I have not played enough games of 8th compared to the investment of 7 Big armies... and those 14 books à 30-40€ )
Spartacus wrote: He's got a point though, irrelevant discussion is why these threads are perceived as such an inaccessible mess. Honestly if most of what gets discussed is peoples outrage over FW pricing, and these threads are going to be banned anyway, I'm about ready to move on from dakka.
They're not inaccessible.
In any case, the fact that forgeworld is a requirement to get the most out of a custodes force is worthy of comment on.
1. I agree they're not, Ive argued as such with those who wish to ban these threads.
2. That is not what is being argued though, we all know that FW is essential to a good Custodes army right now. Essentially what is being discussed is an interpretation of what the meaning of "too much" is. If FW resin models cost 20% or 70% more than regular GW plastic ones it is quite reasonable to assess this as either 'just fine' or 'too much' depending on your point of view. Its entirely subjective but being stated as fact. Arguing over semantics over the internet isn't productive or relevant to custodes.
Arguing semantics is at least 50 percent of pretty much every thread on this forum. Opinions on what is good or not are often only loosely connected to hard facts, and are based largely on soft conjecture and second hand experience.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I thought the new Obscuration rule was if part of the model was "obscured" then the unit counted as being in cover. Granted this was from a spikeybits twitch stream, and I admit i likely misheard it. They said it was basically back to 4th, whatever that meant?
But If we are talking tactics, can Custodes now leap frog from cover to cover, and then charge? I mean this is essentially what we have to do now, but I currently run a mostly biker army, and don't see how the terrain rules could positively affect Custodes?Being the largest models for troops in the game, I can't see the benefit for us.
Obscured just means that obscuring terrain more than 5" tall blocks line of sight to things on the other side of it, whether the physical terrain model does or not. I think it mainly benefits jetbikes - there were many times in 8th an opponent could draw line of sight to a speartip peaking over top of a ruin.
Cover is very board dependent. The -1 to hit cover (probably Dense Cover) is pretty good for Custodes outside of Vexilla range and lets you spread out a bit more. Unfortunately, the tournaments I've been too usually have lots of ruins but relatively fewer things like woods.
Covenant wrote: I feel like everybody is talking about 9th, but what about tactics in 8th? Usually the codex that came last each edition has been the best. What does the PA-rules say about our Custodes and/or Imperial soup-army? What will help those who are not willing to spend hundreds of €£¥$ in new books - again? (I have not played enough games of 8th compared to the investment of 7 Big armies... and those 14 books à 30-40€ )
Well, 9th is supposedly a month away. So with most tournaments still shut down for what remains of 8th it makes sense to look ahead.
I think soup is probably mostly dead, and outside of a fringe bodyguard Aquilan Shield build it doesn’t buy you much. Sisters are cheap enough (50 pts/squad) and can fill the role that admech and Astra Militarum did.
I think what is good in 8th to 9th won’t change all that much, depending on points costs. I’m guessing either terminators, bikes, or vehicles will be the “best”, with the other 2 close behind. In 8th a blob of terminators or bikes is ideal for the strategems, in 9th 5-man squads will be better with Blast weapon rules.
Covenant wrote: I feel like everybody is talking about 9th, but what about tactics in 8th? Usually the codex that came last each edition has been the best. What does the PA-rules say about our Custodes and/or Imperial soup-army? What will help those who are not willing to spend hundreds of €£¥$ in new books - again? (I have not played enough games of 8th compared to the investment of 7 Big armies... and those 14 books à 30-40€ )
Well, 9th is supposedly a month away. So with most tournaments still shut down for what remains of 8th it makes sense to look ahead.
I think soup is probably mostly dead, and outside of a fringe bodyguard Aquilan Shield build it doesn’t buy you much. Sisters are cheap enough (50 pts/squad) and can fill the role that admech and Astra Militarum did.
I think what is good in 8th to 9th won’t change all that much, depending on points costs. I’m guessing either terminators, bikes, or vehicles will be the “best”, with the other 2 close behind. In 8th a blob of terminators or bikes is ideal for the strategems, in 9th 5-man squads will be better with Blast weapon rules.
The issue is that you only get 2 elite slots in a patrol, and I think patrols will be the most efficient detachment for custodes considering the low quality of custodes troop choices.
Double patrol looks increasingly likely if we need 3-4 of whatever (elite, fast etc). Patrol is 1CP so double patrol costs 1CP after the refund. Vanguard is 2CP, and you don’t get the CP refunded for warlord In that detachment so it all depends if you want to spend 2CP pre game.
I’m thinking every CP is precious so double patrol, each with whatever HQ we want and then 1 unit of 5 shield guard in each. Let’s you take 4 elite/fast/heavy then.
Malefic666 wrote: Double patrol looks increasingly likely if we need 3-4 of whatever (elite, fast etc). Patrol is 1CP so double patrol costs 1CP after the refund. Vanguard is 2CP, and you don’t get the CP refunded for warlord In that detachment so it all depends if you want to spend 2CP pre game.
Oh, I must have missed this, is it confirmed? Patrol costs 1CP and Vanguard costs 2?
Malefic666 wrote: Double patrol looks increasingly likely if we need 3-4 of whatever (elite, fast etc). Patrol is 1CP so double patrol costs 1CP after the refund. Vanguard is 2CP, and you don’t get the CP refunded for warlord In that detachment so it all depends if you want to spend 2CP pre game.
I’m thinking every CP is precious so double patrol, each with whatever HQ we want and then 1 unit of 5 shield guard in each. Let’s you take 4 elite/fast/heavy then.
Malefic666 wrote: Double patrol looks increasingly likely if we need 3-4 of whatever (elite, fast etc). Patrol is 1CP so double patrol costs 1CP after the refund. Vanguard is 2CP, and you don’t get the CP refunded for warlord In that detachment so it all depends if you want to spend 2CP pre game.
I’m thinking every CP is precious so double patrol, each with whatever HQ we want and then 1 unit of 5 shield guard in each. Let’s you take 4 elite/fast/heavy then.
The issue is trying to limit your troop tax, since custodes troop choices are a tax, both in forgeworld and not forgeworld heavy lists. a patrol require just 1 troop as opposed to three, giving you like 300 extra points minimum of stuff your didn't have to put into 6 guardians or sags.
Malefic666 wrote: Double patrol looks increasingly likely if we need 3-4 of whatever (elite, fast etc). Patrol is 1CP so double patrol costs 1CP after the refund. Vanguard is 2CP, and you don’t get the CP refunded for warlord In that detachment so it all depends if you want to spend 2CP pre game.
I’m thinking every CP is precious so double patrol, each with whatever HQ we want and then 1 unit of 5 shield guard in each. Let’s you take 4 elite/fast/heavy then.
The issue is trying to limit your troop tax, since custodes troop choices are a tax, both in forgeworld and not forgeworld heavy lists. a patrol require just 1 troop as opposed to three, giving you like 300 extra points minimum of stuff your didn't have to put into 6 guardians or sags.
Exactly. Sure we can take a battalion but 3 troop choices is prohibitively expensive and units of 3 just won’t cut it anymore as if one dies the enemy can shoot your Vexilla or SC or whatever. Like I said, we’ll see a lot of Patrol or double Patrol I think... No the CPs isn’t ‘confirmed’ but trust me, this is what they’ll cost.
Edit. We’ll have to see how many troop units we need. Paying the CP for a vanguard or outrider may well be worth it if we only need one blob of guards. We’ll see I guess.
2 units of 5 is more expensive than 3 units of 3 btw.
Yes you only have to kill 1 guy per squad to stop character protection, but you have 3 squads to do that with instead of 2 squads, and thus have to split your fire more (potentially wasting more shots).
Also, since our tanks and big dreads still give character protection just fine, im thinking a battalion will be just fine.
Some love for the battalion on here lol. Go with a battalion then, I’m not arguing that one is ‘better’ than the other but just about taking what fits best. Irrespective of what argument you try to construct, a patrol only requires one troop and so opens up a lot of utility for us. Want to only spend 150pts on guard, check. Want just one/two guard units cos bringing sisters, check. Want dual hosts, check (take dual patrol). Want 1 HQ, check. Just food for thought in our list building.
While it’s too early to tell for sure but I’m already hearing back from folks that 3 guards is just a waste, too expensive to leave back on an obj when we have cheap sisters, not worthy of strat investment, and impacted by the new character rules. If you’re bringing vehicles then cool, that solves one issue to an extent. I’m kinda thinking I want to run two shield hosts anyway so a battalion doesn’t fit my thinking... I’ll run bikes in Shadowkeepers patrol & Allarus & Dreads in a Dreadhost patrol getting all the benefits of both strats. Grim responsibility has real utility on bikes and is a a solid & cheaper alternative to Arcane genetic alchemy. Allarus and Telemon enjoy GLO Moraides.
On another note Ryan Snyder Got top 8 at another event with his Mech Custodes list. List was: Bike Captain, 3 Caladius, 2 Achillus, 1 Ares,1 Knight-Castigator.
I’d completely missed the Strat Vengeance of the Machine Spirit letting you shoot a weapon on top bracket. That’s petty good.
Malefic666 wrote: Exactly. Sure we can take a battalion but 3 troop choices is prohibitively expensive and units of 3 just won’t cut it anymore as if one dies the enemy can shoot your Vexilla or SC or whatever. Like I said, we’ll see a lot of Patrol or double Patrol I think... No the CPs isn’t ‘confirmed’ but trust me, this is what they’ll cost.
Edit. We’ll have to see how many troop units we need. Paying the CP for a vanguard or outrider may well be worth it if we only need one blob of guards. We’ll see I guess.
And source is what? Have you seen it? Because the logic would be pretty much reversed. In 8th they didn't bring many/none CP because they had low tax. Logically the less tax, higher price it would be in 9th then.
Your statement goes against logic and makes brigades/battallions die pretty badly except as solo free one. Would be very illogical and unbalanced. Then again that does sound what GW would do...
No need to be so aggressive & I’m not sure I follow what you’re saying - do you mean it would punish dual battalion or dual brigade more than say battalion & spearhead? Well yeah it would. But I’m not sure who is taking dual battalion now though when they can take a brigade and I’m not sure who is going to want to take a dual brigade at all so the issue is kind of moot. Not going to happen. What we will see is, for example, brigade & spearhead or patrol & vanguard, and those will cost CPs.
Plus I can only go off what I’ve seen and been told and it’s up to you to listen to me or not. I’m not stating my source but he also told me about overwatch, fall back, & character changes so I dunno... I think I’ll believe him until I see otherwise. Now it might not be the full picture etc etc so like everything right now take it with a pinch of salt.
Double or even triple battalion has been a thing for Orks, Genestealer Cult, and Space Marines. Brigades have been super rare except for Astra Militarum...remember that you have mandatory Fast Attack, Elite, and Heavy Support choices in a brigade so it’s not as simple as “double battalion -> brigade”.
I’m curious to see if our troops remain a tax with the smaller boards and new missions. And a lot is going to depend on points values.
Question for you all.
The Shield-Captain Commander traits, those are rules layered on top of whatever warlord traits a model has, correct? Or do they need to go on a non-warlord?
Yeah I played against double & triple battalions a lot, I even ran double battalion Custodes myself a few times. Double or triple battalion was done for CPs though and that’s all changed now. I’m just not sure why you’d need or ever take a double battalion now with the CP changes and points going up. Anyway, they are the changes. I’m designing lists at 1700 right now to buffer the points increases.
Captain Commander trait is in addition to Warlord so have fun with them. There’s some cool combos with CC, WLT and relics depending on what you want your SC to do.
I expect the Telemon will be close to 350 with storm cannons, 300 with firsts, and the Aquillons will be about 90ppm depending, which puts them close to bike cost.
All biker lists will be pretty strong at the start of 9th actually.
Solar watch outrider
2x dawneagle captain. Warlord with unstoppable destroyer and auric aquillus, other captain with eagles eye and extra warlord trait
2 squads of 5 bikes
1 pallas
1 vexilla magnifica with relic spear.
might be able to squeeze in a calidius grav tank as well depending on points adjustments.
Very strong list with new strats. you can advance and shoot your bolters with one unit. you can prevent rerolls againgst one unit to keep them alive. You can give -1 to wound againgst high strength shooting.
I don't have 12 bikes but im sure a few of you do.
Eihnlazer wrote: All biker lists will be pretty strong at the start of 9th actually.
Solar watch outrider
2x dawneagle captain. Warlord with unstoppable destroyer and auric aquillus, other captain with eagles eye and extra warlord trait
2 squads of 5 bikes
1 pallas
1 vexilla magnifica with relic spear.
Very strong list with new strats. you can advance and shoot your bolters with one unit. you can prevent rerolls againgst one unit to keep them alive. You can give -1 to wound againgst high strength shooting.
I don't have 12 bikes but im sure a few of you do.
Eihnlazer wrote: All biker lists will be pretty strong at the start of 9th actually.
Solar watch outrider
2x dawneagle captain. Warlord with unstoppable destroyer and auric aquillus, other captain with eagles eye and extra warlord trait
2 squads of 5 bikes
1 pallas
1 vexilla magnifica with relic spear.
might be able to squeeze in a calidius grav tank as well depending on points adjustments.
Very strong list with new strats. you can advance and shoot your bolters with one unit. you can prevent rerolls againgst one unit to keep them alive. You can give -1 to wound againgst high strength shooting.
I don't have 12 bikes but im sure a few of you do.
Why would it be a strong list? You can't charge with the bikes after advancing them. It has no anti tank shooting... and we will probably see a lot of tanks in 9th.
Eihnlazer wrote: All biker lists will be pretty strong at the start of 9th actually.
Solar watch outrider
2x dawneagle captain. Warlord with unstoppable destroyer and auric aquillus, other captain with eagles eye and extra warlord trait
2 squads of 5 bikes
1 pallas
1 vexilla magnifica with relic spear.
might be able to squeeze in a calidius grav tank as well depending on points adjustments.
Very strong list with new strats. you can advance and shoot your bolters with one unit. you can prevent rerolls againgst one unit to keep them alive. You can give -1 to wound againgst high strength shooting.
I don't have 12 bikes but im sure a few of you do.
Why would it be a strong list? You can't charge with the bikes after advancing them. It has no anti tank shooting... and we will probably see a lot of tanks in 9th.
It kills tanks in melee, not shooting. The board is dramatically smaller too so you should be able to get into melee much more easily, especially with our new protective stratagems.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
iGuy91 wrote: Question for you all.
The Shield-Captain Commander traits, those are rules layered on top of whatever warlord traits a model has, correct? Or do they need to go on a non-warlord?
Knight lists still blow bike lists off the table. Also with Baneblades shooting in Melee for possibly max hits you better get some anti-tank or a bigger spear because they will auto-delete bikes at will.
Like everyone has said, vehicles are now going to be stupid popular. If you aren't running telemons in your lists I don't see how you are taking down T8+ vehicles and surviving to the end of the game.
Canhammer just did an interview with Brian Pullen, and they said Custodes just became Top tier overnight due to the new rules and how they affect us. Good to hear. Now can we please make the Venerable Contemptor's fist flat 4d?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Knight lists still blow bike lists off the table. Also with Baneblades shooting in Melee for possibly max hits you better get some anti-tank or a bigger spear because they will auto-delete bikes at will.
Like everyone has said, vehicles are now going to be stupid popular. If you aren't running telemons in your lists I don't see how you are taking down T8+ vehicles and surviving to the end of the game.
Canhammer just did an interview with Brian Pullen, and they said Custodes just became Top tier overnight due to the new rules and how they affect us. Good to hear. Now can we please make the Venerable Contemptor's fist flat 4d?
An Avenger Gatling Cannon, with no mods from anyone in play, averages a single Jetbike per turn. Assuming you have 3 Knights and 3 of those to deal with, that's 3 Jetbikes. If you're in cover (just +1 to Armor Save) it only averages 2.67 wounds, so now you're just down 2 Jetbikes. If you gain benefit from Dense Cover or from the Vexilla Magnifica, the average is a flat 2 wounds so still just 2 Jetbikes down.
(Note: I use the AGC here because most people list it as the most efficient Jetbike killer, other guns should do worse).
With the smaller board size and the plethora of Hurricane Bolters you've brought, you're likely only out of charge range for one turn. Someone mentioned 1,650 as their base for list making now to account for potential price hikes. If you really went pure Jetbikes, HQ + Vexilla leaves you with enough points for 15 Jetbikes. Let's see what hits the Knights.
We'll use 3 Knight Crusaders as our estimate here and we'll guess they're all the Battlecannon/AGC variety with Ironstorm Missile Pods (TAC tournament loadout unless you're Chaos, then you might get two-AGC's or switch the Battlecannons to Thermals).
As we said with the AGC, we lose 1 Jetbike and another is down to half. 14.5 Jetbikes remaining.
For the Battlecannons, you have three squads of 5 Jetbikes so there is no bonus to shooting them. All three Battlecannons combined average 2.33 wounds. 14 Jetbikes remaining. (If we use our -1 to Wound strat on one of the guns the average drops below 2 and there is a chance we don't lose any Jetbikes, though the Knight player also has a strat to make one Battlecannon do a flat 3 damage to compensate).
The Ironstorm Missile Pods, combined, average .88 wounds. 14 Jetbikes remaining.
So now you're in charge range. What does a squad of 5 Jetbikes look like in melee with a Shield-Captain?
22.5 damage on average. You're 1.5 off from finishing the Knight and that's a small enough window you should be able to get it up with your Warlord/Great-Commander/Relic or whatever. The remaining 9 Jetbikes should be able to kill a second Knight (27.78 damage average without a Shield-Captain's re-roll 1's).
There ARE lists that can give all Jetbike lists problems. Knight lists aren't really one of them unless you're not positioning well and getting charged by the Knight yourself (because those feet will shred you). This was all without flashy toys too, which open a lot of options for us.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Knight lists still blow bike lists off the table. Also with Baneblades shooting in Melee for possibly max hits you better get some anti-tank or a bigger spear because they will auto-delete bikes at will.
Like everyone has said, vehicles are now going to be stupid popular. If you aren't running telemons in your lists I don't see how you are taking down T8+ vehicles and surviving to the end of the game.
Canhammer just did an interview with Brian Pullen, and they said Custodes just became Top tier overnight due to the new rules and how they affect us. Good to hear. Now can we please make the Venerable Contemptor's fist flat 4d?
An Avenger Gatling Cannon, with no mods from anyone in play, averages a single Jetbike per turn. Assuming you have 3 Knights and 3 of those to deal with, that's 3 Jetbikes. If you're in cover (just +1 to Armor Save) it only averages 2.67 wounds, so now you're just down 2 Jetbikes. If you gain benefit from Dense Cover or from the Vexilla Magnifica, the average is a flat 2 wounds so still just 2 Jetbikes down.
(Note: I use the AGC here because most people list it as the most efficient Jetbike killer, other guns should do worse).
With the smaller board size and the plethora of Hurricane Bolters you've brought, you're likely only out of charge range for one turn. Someone mentioned 1,650 as their base for list making now to account for potential price hikes. If you really went pure Jetbikes, HQ + Vexilla leaves you with enough points for 15 Jetbikes. Let's see what hits the Knights.
We'll use 3 Knight Crusaders as our estimate here and we'll guess they're all the Battlecannon/AGC variety with Ironstorm Missile Pods (TAC tournament loadout unless you're Chaos, then you might get two-AGC's or switch the Battlecannons to Thermals).
As we said with the AGC, we lose 1 Jetbike and another is down to half. 14.5 Jetbikes remaining.
For the Battlecannons, you have three squads of 5 Jetbikes so there is no bonus to shooting them. All three Battlecannons combined average 2.33 wounds. 14 Jetbikes remaining. (If we use our -1 to Wound strat on one of the guns the average drops below 2 and there is a chance we don't lose any Jetbikes, though the Knight player also has a strat to make one Battlecannon do a flat 3 damage to compensate).
The Ironstorm Missile Pods, combined, average .88 wounds. 14 Jetbikes remaining.
So now you're in charge range. What does a squad of 5 Jetbikes look like in melee with a Shield-Captain?
22.5 damage on average. You're 1.5 off from finishing the Knight and that's a small enough window you should be able to get it up with your Warlord/Great-Commander/Relic or whatever. The remaining 9 Jetbikes should be able to kill a second Knight (27.78 damage average without a Shield-Captain's re-roll 1's).
There ARE lists that can give all Jetbike lists problems. Knight lists aren't really one of them unless you're not positioning well and getting charged by the Knight yourself (because those feet will shred you). This was all without flashy toys too, which open a lot of options for us.
Are you compering
15*90=1620 156 bikes
1*160=160 SC on bike
1*109 =109 vexilla
=> 1620+160+109 = 1889
to 3*494=1482
thats 407 points difference... and no strats for the Knights?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Knight lists still blow bike lists off the table. Also with Baneblades shooting in Melee for possibly max hits you better get some anti-tank or a bigger spear because they will auto-delete bikes at will.
Like everyone has said, vehicles are now going to be stupid popular. If you aren't running telemons in your lists I don't see how you are taking down T8+ vehicles and surviving to the end of the game.
Canhammer just did an interview with Brian Pullen, and they said Custodes just became Top tier overnight due to the new rules and how they affect us. Good to hear. Now can we please make the Venerable Contemptor's fist flat 4d?
An Avenger Gatling Cannon, with no mods from anyone in play, averages a single Jetbike per turn. Assuming you have 3 Knights and 3 of those to deal with, that's 3 Jetbikes. If you're in cover (just +1 to Armor Save) it only averages 2.67 wounds, so now you're just down 2 Jetbikes. If you gain benefit from Dense Cover or from the Vexilla Magnifica, the average is a flat 2 wounds so still just 2 Jetbikes down.
(Note: I use the AGC here because most people list it as the most efficient Jetbike killer, other guns should do worse).
With the smaller board size and the plethora of Hurricane Bolters you've brought, you're likely only out of charge range for one turn. Someone mentioned 1,650 as their base for list making now to account for potential price hikes. If you really went pure Jetbikes, HQ + Vexilla leaves you with enough points for 15 Jetbikes. Let's see what hits the Knights.
We'll use 3 Knight Crusaders as our estimate here and we'll guess they're all the Battlecannon/AGC variety with Ironstorm Missile Pods (TAC tournament loadout unless you're Chaos, then you might get two-AGC's or switch the Battlecannons to Thermals).
As we said with the AGC, we lose 1 Jetbike and another is down to half. 14.5 Jetbikes remaining.
For the Battlecannons, you have three squads of 5 Jetbikes so there is no bonus to shooting them. All three Battlecannons combined average 2.33 wounds. 14 Jetbikes remaining. (If we use our -1 to Wound strat on one of the guns the average drops below 2 and there is a chance we don't lose any Jetbikes, though the Knight player also has a strat to make one Battlecannon do a flat 3 damage to compensate).
The Ironstorm Missile Pods, combined, average .88 wounds. 14 Jetbikes remaining.
So now you're in charge range. What does a squad of 5 Jetbikes look like in melee with a Shield-Captain?
22.5 damage on average. You're 1.5 off from finishing the Knight and that's a small enough window you should be able to get it up with your Warlord/Great-Commander/Relic or whatever. The remaining 9 Jetbikes should be able to kill a second Knight (27.78 damage average without a Shield-Captain's re-roll 1's).
There ARE lists that can give all Jetbike lists problems. Knight lists aren't really one of them unless you're not positioning well and getting charged by the Knight yourself (because those feet will shred you). This was all without flashy toys too, which open a lot of options for us.
Are you compering
15*90=1620 156 bikes
1*160=160 SC on bike
1*109 =109 vexilla
=> 1620+160+109 = 1889
to 3*494=1482
thats 407 points difference... and no strats for the Knights?
1. I didn't use strats for the Custodes OR the Knights. I think strats tilt it farther in the Custodes favor since we have many more ways to protect ourselves now than they do to increase damage.
2. I wasn't really doing 'list vs. list', I was refuting the point that an all Knights list (typically 3 Knights and some chaff, maybe an armiger or two) will crush an all Jetbike list. And I used 1,650 points. 160 + 109 leaves 1381 left over. 1381 divided by 90 is 15.34 (repeating). Three Crusaders leaves the Knights list with 168 points left over for a Guard detachment as chaff (which will be obliterated by the Hurricane Bolters).
No chance in hell I'm buying 16 bikes but I appreciate seeing the math against triple crusaders here. Hopefully our more balanced lists can produce similar results.
slave.entity wrote: No chance in hell I'm buying 16 bikes but I appreciate seeing the math against triple crusaders here. Hopefully our more balanced lists can produce similar results.
I think with Dread Host they can. Our biggest problem was being unable to reliably get into combat. We now have a mechanism.
slave.entity wrote: No chance in hell I'm buying 16 bikes but I appreciate seeing the math against triple crusaders here. Hopefully our more balanced lists can produce similar results.
ATM shooting them is much easier. With an Ares and 3 caladius and you can will a knight in on turn.
So in reading the new reviews by youtubers, they all seem to suggest the 3x5 blobs of Allarus with a Flag and Trajaan, and an allarus SC is the new hot gak with dread host. Basically turn 2 16 allarus drop down mulch any characters, and then charge the lines. the Guardians hold objectives and pick off targets of oppurtunity. I am really liking this new Allarus over Aquillon sentiment. Character targeting more than makes up for everything else they lose out on.
Runs about 1650 which is about where the points adjustments should put us around the old 2000.
This would be my dread host list.
Character targeting will definitely be important, but allarus don't do enough damage at range and taking more than 1 or 2 squads of termies will mean you cant buff all 3 of them very much.
Yeah I think 1 squad of termies and maybe a second one or a bike squad is about the max. The “ignore AP-2” strat is extremely good...that math for the AGC on knights changes a lot when you get 2+ saves. Shadowkeepers is also a lot nicer than I initially thought.
I don’t know if it puts our termies on the same level as GK Paladins (-1 dmg strat, always in cover) but they are much better than they were.
I think our termies can compete with that level of durability. We got so many defensive strats: Arcane Genetic Alchemy for a Transhuman Physiology equivalent, Emperor's Auspice to shut down ALL rerolls, Auramite and Adamantium to ignore up to AP -2. You could even go Shadowkeepers for Grim Responsibility for -1 STR to incoming attacks. Granted it's quite a CP investment but with even 2 of those active on a unit of our termies they're gonna be stupid hard to shift. You could even put a Vexilla Magnifica near them for -1 to hit. WotS gave them a lot of tools to the point where even if they somehow fail the charge it isn't a death knell for them now.
stratigo wrote: As someone who has actually played all jetbikes verse all knights, it is knight advantaged. Or was. Now it is not so clear
Same here i went to a tournament with an all bike list and i had two games against knights. I had no chance of winning against them. The 4 dmg AGC and house krast is so good against bikes.
stratigo wrote: As someone who has actually played all jetbikes verse all knights, it is knight advantaged. Or was. Now it is not so clear
Same here i went to a tournament with an all bike list and i had two games against knights. I had no chance of winning against them. The 4 dmg AGC and house krast is so good against bikes.
You were cheated. The Krast AGC is only 4 dmg against Titanic units, and 3 dmg against models with 10+ wounds.
stratigo wrote: As someone who has actually played all jetbikes verse all knights, it is knight advantaged. Or was. Now it is not so clear
Same here i went to a tournament with an all bike list and i had two games against knights. I had no chance of winning against them. The 4 dmg AGC and house krast is so good against bikes.
You were cheated. The Krast AGC is only 4 dmg against Titanic units, and 3 dmg against models with 10+ wounds.
sorry i meant the 14 shot version with extra hits on 6's. I remembered it wrong. And the lack of big LOSB Terrain was also an issue.
stratigo wrote: As someone who has actually played all jetbikes verse all knights, it is knight advantaged. Or was. Now it is not so clear
Same here i went to a tournament with an all bike list and i had two games against knights. I had no chance of winning against them. The 4 dmg AGC and house krast is so good against bikes.
There's also making the blithe assumption that the knight player is going to be the one getting charged. Knights are a bad shooting platform if that's all you're using them for. They're meant to fight in combat as well as shoot, and against a bike based list, they usually have the initiative of combat, where they can hold back a turn and shoot and then push forward, shoot, and charge, since bikes have no capability to outshoot a knight. I've only had the initative in a charge via deepstrike, or luring the knights into charging a less useful unit and then hitting it with the bikes. But usually deepstriking, which I don't do when I'm running 20 bikes, but I will when I'm running 13 (my standard battalion is 3 bike caps, 9/10 bikes, the recent points changes allowed me to squeeze in an extra bike, a vexilia, and 3 by 3 guard).
Knights are very strong against bikes.
But now with defensive tricks, bikes can manage. I think a good bike/termy split is a way to go, providing 2 big hammers with a lot of defensive tools to worry about. And maybe a telemon. Pending points and rules changes. Forgeworld stuff is generally in flux.
stratigo wrote: As someone who has actually played all jetbikes verse all knights, it is knight advantaged. Or was. Now it is not so clear
Same here i went to a tournament with an all bike list and i had two games against knights. I had no chance of winning against them. The 4 dmg AGC and house krast is so good against bikes.
You were cheated. The Krast AGC is only 4 dmg against Titanic units, and 3 dmg against models with 10+ wounds.
sorry i meant the 14 shot version with extra hits on 6's. I remembered it wrong. And the lack of big LOSB Terrain was also an issue.
Then it's the terrain that partially robbed you. Though, still, Endless Fury should only average one dead Jetbike per turn. It's not enough of a boost to do much more than a normal AGC to Jetbikes.
I fought Alexander Fennell's Knights at a competitive tournament (and others since, but that was the 'biggest' name I ever tangled with for Knights). It's the stomping feet that should tear your Jetbikes apart, not the guns.
stratigo wrote: As someone who has actually played all jetbikes verse all knights, it is knight advantaged. Or was. Now it is not so clear
Same here i went to a tournament with an all bike list and i had two games against knights. I had no chance of winning against them. The 4 dmg AGC and house krast is so good against bikes.
There's also making the blithe assumption that the knight player is going to be the one getting charged. Knights are a bad shooting platform if that's all you're using them for. They're meant to fight in combat as well as shoot, and against a bike based list, they usually have the initiative of combat, where they can hold back a turn and shoot and then push forward, shoot, and charge, since bikes have no capability to outshoot a knight. I've only had the initative in a charge via deepstrike, or luring the knights into charging a less useful unit and then hitting it with the bikes. But usually deepstriking, which I don't do when I'm running 20 bikes, but I will when I'm running 13 (my standard battalion is 3 bike caps, 9/10 bikes, the recent points changes allowed me to squeeze in an extra bike, a vexilia, and 3 by 3 guard).
Knights are very strong against bikes.
But now with defensive tricks, bikes can manage. I think a good bike/termy split is a way to go, providing 2 big hammers with a lot of defensive tools to worry about. And maybe a telemon. Pending points and rules changes. Forgeworld stuff is generally in flux.
Again, I think this is a terrain issue. The Jetbikes have the same movement or better than a Knight and they have FLY. You should be able to angle well enough to charge or control more objectives to get more points. Either way is a win.
stratigo wrote: As someone who has actually played all jetbikes verse all knights, it is knight advantaged. Or was. Now it is not so clear
Same here i went to a tournament with an all bike list and i had two games against knights. I had no chance of winning against them. The 4 dmg AGC and house krast is so good against bikes.
You were cheated. The Krast AGC is only 4 dmg against Titanic units, and 3 dmg against models with 10+ wounds.
sorry i meant the 14 shot version with extra hits on 6's. I remembered it wrong. And the lack of big LOSB Terrain was also an issue.
Then it's the terrain that partially robbed you. Though, still, Endless Fury should only average one dead Jetbike per turn. It's not enough of a boost to do much more than a normal AGC to Jetbikes.
I fought Alexander Fennell's Knights at a competitive tournament (and others since, but that was the 'biggest' name I ever tangled with for Knights). It's the stomping feet that should tear your Jetbikes apart, not the guns.
stratigo wrote: As someone who has actually played all jetbikes verse all knights, it is knight advantaged. Or was. Now it is not so clear
Same here i went to a tournament with an all bike list and i had two games against knights. I had no chance of winning against them. The 4 dmg AGC and house krast is so good against bikes.
There's also making the blithe assumption that the knight player is going to be the one getting charged. Knights are a bad shooting platform if that's all you're using them for. They're meant to fight in combat as well as shoot, and against a bike based list, they usually have the initiative of combat, where they can hold back a turn and shoot and then push forward, shoot, and charge, since bikes have no capability to outshoot a knight. I've only had the initative in a charge via deepstrike, or luring the knights into charging a less useful unit and then hitting it with the bikes. But usually deepstriking, which I don't do when I'm running 20 bikes, but I will when I'm running 13 (my standard battalion is 3 bike caps, 9/10 bikes, the recent points changes allowed me to squeeze in an extra bike, a vexilia, and 3 by 3 guard).
Knights are very strong against bikes.
But now with defensive tricks, bikes can manage. I think a good bike/termy split is a way to go, providing 2 big hammers with a lot of defensive tools to worry about. And maybe a telemon. Pending points and rules changes. Forgeworld stuff is generally in flux.
Again, I think this is a terrain issue. The Jetbikes have the same movement or better than a Knight and they have FLY. You should be able to angle well enough to charge or control more objectives to get more points. Either way is a win.
Under 8th edition terrain rules, bikes are extremely difficult to hide. They take up far more of a footprint than a knight does, and a unit will actually not be fantastically shorter unless you're a hobbyest that's managed to angle all the spears downwards.
Knights especially have a few ways to push their charge envelope out much farther than custodes do with any unit, even now. A full tilt knight will probably bash its way into a squad of jetbikes from really almost anywhere.
stratigo wrote: As someone who has actually played all jetbikes verse all knights, it is knight advantaged. Or was. Now it is not so clear
Same here i went to a tournament with an all bike list and i had two games against knights. I had no chance of winning against them. The 4 dmg AGC and house krast is so good against bikes.
You were cheated. The Krast AGC is only 4 dmg against Titanic units, and 3 dmg against models with 10+ wounds.
sorry i meant the 14 shot version with extra hits on 6's. I remembered it wrong. And the lack of big LOSB Terrain was also an issue.
Then it's the terrain that partially robbed you. Though, still, Endless Fury should only average one dead Jetbike per turn. It's not enough of a boost to do much more than a normal AGC to Jetbikes.
I fought Alexander Fennell's Knights at a competitive tournament (and others since, but that was the 'biggest' name I ever tangled with for Knights). It's the stomping feet that should tear your Jetbikes apart, not the guns.
stratigo wrote: As someone who has actually played all jetbikes verse all knights, it is knight advantaged. Or was. Now it is not so clear
Same here i went to a tournament with an all bike list and i had two games against knights. I had no chance of winning against them. The 4 dmg AGC and house krast is so good against bikes.
There's also making the blithe assumption that the knight player is going to be the one getting charged. Knights are a bad shooting platform if that's all you're using them for. They're meant to fight in combat as well as shoot, and against a bike based list, they usually have the initiative of combat, where they can hold back a turn and shoot and then push forward, shoot, and charge, since bikes have no capability to outshoot a knight. I've only had the initative in a charge via deepstrike, or luring the knights into charging a less useful unit and then hitting it with the bikes. But usually deepstriking, which I don't do when I'm running 20 bikes, but I will when I'm running 13 (my standard battalion is 3 bike caps, 9/10 bikes, the recent points changes allowed me to squeeze in an extra bike, a vexilia, and 3 by 3 guard).
Knights are very strong against bikes.
But now with defensive tricks, bikes can manage. I think a good bike/termy split is a way to go, providing 2 big hammers with a lot of defensive tools to worry about. And maybe a telemon. Pending points and rules changes. Forgeworld stuff is generally in flux.
Again, I think this is a terrain issue. The Jetbikes have the same movement or better than a Knight and they have FLY. You should be able to angle well enough to charge or control more objectives to get more points. Either way is a win.
Under 8th edition terrain rules, bikes are extremely difficult to hide. They take up far more of a footprint than a knight does, and a unit will actually not be fantastically shorter unless you're a hobbyest that's managed to angle all the spears downwards.
Knights especially have a few ways to push their charge envelope out much farther than custodes do with any unit, even now. A full tilt knight will probably bash its way into a squad of jetbikes from really almost anywhere.
I have no idea what your local tables are like. On a standard (NOVA/LVO) board the center ruin(s) are big enough to hide Jetbikes as are the deployment zone ruin on each side (note LVO only uses standard terrain for top tables, NOVA uses it for all tables).
While some Knights definitely go fast, they can't go through walls AND your Vexilla can hit them with a Tanglefoot grenade. Slows them down a lot. Conversely, the Jetbikes can jump over a wall in their movement phase.
In addition, you have Stooping Dive. You should be keeping your Jetbike squads within a reasonable distance so you can counter-charge and smash a bum rushing Knight.
While I know we all have 15+!bikes lying around from when the codex first came, let’s not sit and pretend a bike list is going to be good in 9th. Terminators get tangle foot grenade, vexilla teleportation, ignores up to AP -2, and dreadhost deepstrike (although be careful with this one, only use it when you’re ok with failing the charge.) Most importantly, they are cheaper than bikes (assuming nothing crazy happens to points) and are infantry. I think having a large blob of guys who can hold the center is going to important in 9th and terminators are going to be key for this. I think most of you guys agree with me here, I just wanted inform anyone reading this thread that an biker army isn’t going to very competitive.
The real question is whether or not a single biker unit in general list is going to be good. Points will be a big deciding factor here, but as a general concept I like the having idea of 4-5 man biker unit with my bike captain. You can hid this blob turn 1, then jump them out as you deepstrike with your terminators. That said Brian Pullen (a playtester for 9th) said that he doesn’t think bikers are going to be good enough. This could mean their points are going to increase more in proportion to something like an allarus terminator (which Pullen thought would be quite good). It could also mean Pullen just doesn’t like bikes much, and that’s it’s only his opinion that bikes will bad. We’ll have to wait and see, but I would really love to use more than just 1 of my 18 biker models for my competitive army.
Salt donkey wrote: While I know we all have 15+!bikes lying around from when the codex first came, let’s not sit and pretend a bike list is going to be good in 9th. Terminators get tangle foot grenade, vexilla teleportation, ignores up to AP -2, and dreadhost deepstrike (although be careful with this one, only use it when you’re ok with failing the charge.) Most importantly, they are cheaper than bikes (assuming nothing crazy happens to points) and are infantry. I think having a large blob of guys who can hold the center is going to important in 9th and terminators are going to be key for this. I think most of you guys agree with me here, I just wanted inform anyone reading this thread that an biker army isn’t going to very competitive.
The real question is whether or not a single biker unit in general list is going to be good. Points will be a big deciding factor here, but as a general concept I like the having idea of 4-5 man biker unit with my bike captain. You can hid this blob turn 1, then jump them out as you deepstrike with your terminators. That said Brian Pullen (a playtester for 9th) said that he doesn’t think bikers are going to be good enough. This could mean their points are going to increase more in proportion to something like an allarus terminator (which Pullen thought would be quite good). It could also mean Pullen just doesn’t like bikes much, and that’s it’s only his opinion that bikes will bad. We’ll have to wait and see, but I would really love to use more than just 1 of my 18 biker models for my competitive army.
So on a largescale sense, I do agree that an all Jetbike list is not going to do great in 9th. Sadly, I am sorely tempted to take just ONE: a Shield-Captain. If you give him the Captain-Commander trait that allows consolidation in any direction, he can hit a target and then immediately leave combat before retaliation. Stack him out with the usual 3++, re-roll charges, 5+++, Victor of the Blood Games and he can go hold an objective in your opponent's backfield by himself without much concern. He might even be able to assassinate a character and escape without much/any retaliation.
That said, I am currently planning to run one sizable Jetbike squad and one sizable Aquilon squad as the core of an army.
Has anyone considered that (Arcane Genetic Alchemy) can go on their bikes to make sure they are only wounded on 4s, and with another stratagem (The Emperor’s Auspice), you can turn off all rerolls against that one squad of bikes for a turn?
So for 4 CP for those stratagems, you have a squad of bikes that is
-1 to hit from a Vexilla or the new dense terrain rules
No rerolls to hit, no rerolls to wound, no rerolls for random shots, no rerolls for random damage.
Can only be wounded on 4s,
Still has a 2+, 4++
iGuy91 wrote: Has anyone considered that (Arcane Genetic Alchemy) can go on their bikes to make sure they are only wounded on 4s, and with another stratagem (The Emperor’s Auspice), you can turn off all rerolls against that one squad of bikes for a turn?
So for 4 CP for those stratagems, you have a squad of bikes that is
-1 to hit from a Vexilla or the new dense terrain rules
No rerolls to hit, no rerolls to wound, no rerolls for random shots, no rerolls for random damage.
Can only be wounded on 4s,
Still has a 2+, 4++
It's pretty sweet! You can do it for a terminator unit too I think though so it's a wash when comparing the two.
Don’t sleep too hard on allarus. Their ability to target characters with a strat merges with the Bolter buff could give them the ability to wipe out two key combo chars from, say, a marine army, and still follow that up with smashing face with their axes.
stratigo wrote: Don’t sleep too hard on allarus. Their ability to target characters with a strat merges with the Bolter buff could give them the ability to wipe out two key combo chars from, say, a marine army, and still follow that up with smashing face with their axes.
I think it's like 11 shots on average to down a 3+ marine captain, I might be wrong. It's possible but you're gonna need a fair number of terminators.
On the other hand, if you back them up with a Vindicare you might be able to work some magic and recoup some of that CP while you're at it!
stratigo wrote: Don’t sleep too hard on allarus. Their ability to target characters with a strat merges with the Bolter buff could give them the ability to wipe out two key combo chars from, say, a marine army, and still follow that up with smashing face with their axes.
I think it's like 11 shots on average to down a 3+ marine captain, I might be wrong. It's possible but you're gonna need a fair number of terminators.
On the other hand, if you back them up with a Vindicare you might be able to work some magic and recoup some of that CP while you're at it!
You can combo the shoot characters with the double your bolter shots and hit characters
Allarus are going to be so good in 9th, they were already good but now with the way 9th missions are is going to be about holding the centre of the table their utility is just so good.
I think bikes will see use but this edition isn’t shaping up to be a horde edition from what the play testers have been saying, they could be wrong but bikes are going to suffer from not having the infantry keyword and us maybe not needing hurricane bolters so much. Only time will tell on this one but I’ve shelved my bikes and I’m working on another 6 Allarus so I can run 2 units of 6 with a Dreadhost Allarus SC.
I think the Telemon will be a really good unit, a good few sources have said dreads are going to be really good and the Telemon is the best dread out there with the new strats (though surely the half damage strat will get FAQd). I can also see Achillus being good too. I’ve heard from playtesters that vehicles are getting a big boost and dreads will benefit greatly so I’m really happy about that. Also Brian from Tabletop Titans said most Custodes will be bringing Battalions so I concede defeat there, seems troops and infantry keyword is going to be super important that we’ll need 3 x guard units anyway.
I'd caution everyone to wait on making any additional forgeworld purchases until after GW reveals what they are doing with forgeworld rules. Provided that's why you are looking at the models. Forge world usually experiences a lot of fluctuation in its rules
Ok so I’m going to power rank all the captain commander traits here.
Tier 1 good and almost all situations
1) + 2 W: I think people are sleeping in this one a bit. The reason I like this is due to how it synergizes with supreme creation. With that 5+++ this trait gives you’re shield captain an effective +3 wounds, as it takes 3 unsaved wounds on average to do 2 wounds to a model with a 5+++. This effective means a 2+, 3++ captain with this combination will give you an extra T6 storm shield guardian for your list in terms of wounds provided.
Extremely good.
2) 5+ cp regan trait: you know this one, and you know why it will be good. Next
Teir 2 situational great
3) unstoppable destroyer. I like this one but think people are overrated it a bit for 9th. The problem is the main use this trait provides is to back out of Combat before your opponent swings. In the 8th this is good because you are preventing a whole round of attack backs even if your opponent will recharges you. This is because your opponent’s unit would get to strike first during its turn. However, since order of activation is different in 9th, during your opponents turn that same unit will now strike after your shield captain, meaning staying in combat with a unit you failed to kill is less punishing than it was before. Obviously, there are still plenty of movement shenanigans you can still use this for, and you still use this to force your opponent to charge a shield captain that they might have been able to kill during you assault phase. These reasons keep this trait as situationally good, but because of the 9th Ed assault changes it’s a tier below the 2 best traits
4) + 1 to M, Adv, and charge. Do you want your dreadhost terminator captain to make a charge from deepstrike, without having to banner him? We’ll have I got the trait for you! For real 3 d6 pick the 2 highest gets a lot better on an 8 inch charge, especially with a CP re-roll.
Power gap
Teir 3 situational usable (honestly you probably wouldn’t be too wrong to just ignore everything past this point)
5) +3 ‘ to aura’s: this one could be nice if you got a warlord trait that you really want extended. Maybe the solar watch one? However, outside of the stuff like this I just think there are better choices.
6) +2 A vs 6+ model units: 2 attacks are always great, so against armies that have Deathstars this could be useful. Np That said the fact that this turns off once your opponents units grow smaller is big negative against it.
7) re-roll wounds against vehicles and monsters: certain vehicle and monster heavy lists you’ll want this but there are also plenty of times you’ll want something like unstoppable destroyer instead.
Tier 4 trash that is always bad.
8) double damage on 6’s. This is the side benefit that the nurgle demon’s power virulent blessing gives. Best in case is you get like 3 more damage on something dangerous with a dreadhost captain. That’s still well below what the top tier choices gives you as a baseline.
9) more attack when hurt: just straight bad. “Yes I know my shield captain is now more dangerous because you’ve hurt him, but I’d really like it if you didn’t finish him off.”
I disagree on tier 4's. A SC biker with the trait could take down a lot of big things, it's very swingy, but on a bike it's godly. especially paired with VOTBG and missile launchers? Now you are talking knight Territory damage, also they would disengage and fall back before the knight gets to retort.
Automatically Appended Next Post: How does the Gate keeper work with the new Overwatch rules?
Salt donkey wrote: Ok so I’m going to power rank all the captain commander traits here.
Tier 1 good and almost all situations
1) + 2 W: I think people are sleeping in this one a bit. The reason I like this is due to how it synergizes with supreme creation. With that 5+++ this trait gives you’re shield captain an effective +3 wounds, as it takes 3 unsaved wounds on average to do 2 wounds to a model with a 5+++. This effective means a 2+, 3++ captain with this combination will give you an extra T6 storm shield guardian for your list in terms of wounds provided.
Extremely good.
2) 5+ cp regan trait: you know this one, and you know why it will be good. Next
Teir 2 situational great
3) unstoppable destroyer. I like this one but think people are overrated it a bit for 9th. The problem is the main use this trait provides is to back out of Combat before your opponent swings. In the 8th this is good because you are preventing a whole round of attack backs even if your opponent will recharges you. This is because your opponent’s unit would get to strike first during its turn. However, since order of activation is different in 9th, during your opponents turn that same unit will now strike after your shield captain, meaning staying in combat with a unit you failed to kill is less punishing than it was before. Obviously, there are still plenty of movement shenanigans you can still use this for, and you still use this to force your opponent to charge a shield captain that they might have been able to kill during you assault phase. These reasons keep this trait as situationally good, but because of the 9th Ed assault changes it’s a tier below the 2 best traits
4) + 1 to M, Adv, and charge. Do you want your dreadhost terminator captain to make a charge from deepstrike, without having to banner him? We’ll have I got the trait for you! For real 3 d6 pick the 2 highest gets a lot better on an 8 inch charge, especially with a CP re-roll.
Power gap
Teir 3 situational usable (honestly you probably wouldn’t be too wrong to just ignore everything past this point)
5) +3 ‘ to aura’s: this one could be nice if you got a warlord trait that you really want extended. Maybe the solar watch one? However, outside of the stuff like this I just think there are better choices.
6) +2 A vs 6+ model units: 2 attacks are always great, so against armies that have Deathstars this could be useful. Np That said the fact that this turns off once your opponents units grow smaller is big negative against it.
7) re-roll wounds against vehicles and monsters: certain vehicle and monster heavy lists you’ll want this but there are also plenty of times you’ll want something like unstoppable destroyer instead.
Tier 4 trash that is always bad.
8) double damage on 6’s. This is the side benefit that the nurgle demon’s power virulent blessing gives. Best in case is you get like 3 more damage on something dangerous with a dreadhost captain. That’s still well below what the top tier choices gives you as a baseline.
9) more attack when hurt: just straight bad. “Yes I know my shield captain is now more dangerous because you’ve hurt him, but I’d really like it if you didn’t finish him off.”
I mostly agree with this! I'd rate 3 in Tier 1 because it is still useful to prevent interrupts. Let's say my opponent has something big and nasty that I hurt, but don't kill, like a Daemon Prince. I can now 'nope' out and either force it's attacks on to my regular units or expose it to a Stooping Dive next turn before it gets a chance to kill my Shield-Captain.
I agree with the +2W being solid. I didn't originally have it that high but writing this post sold me. The aforementioned Daemon Prince probably won't be able to kill my Shield-Captain with +2W and 5+++.
stratigo wrote: Don’t sleep too hard on allarus. Their ability to target characters with a strat merges with the Bolter buff could give them the ability to wipe out two key combo chars from, say, a marine army, and still follow that up with smashing face with their axes.
I think it's like 11 shots on average to down a 3+ marine captain, I might be wrong. It's possible but you're gonna need a fair number of terminators.
On the other hand, if you back them up with a Vindicare you might be able to work some magic and recoup some of that CP while you're at it!
You can combo the shoot characters with the double your bolter shots and hit characters
Right, but that doesn't change the number of shots required to kill a marine captain.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I disagree on tier 4's. A SC biker with the trait could take down a lot of big things, it's very swingy, but on a bike it's godly. especially paired with VOTBG and missile launchers? Now you are talking knight Territory damage, also they would disengage and fall back before the knight gets to retort.
Automatically Appended Next Post: How does the Gate keeper work with the new Overwatch rules?
The problem here is the “very swingy” part. Is there games were your jet bike captain does 12 to a knight and then comes in finish the job with his melee? Yes there will be. However, there’s also going to be games where you don’t roll a 6 with your melta Missile wound, or your opponent makes his save, or you just miss in general. In fact there will be games where you won’t get a single double damage attack through, and that seems more likely to me then the first example. In a beer in pretzel game where you just want to roll dice this is a fine trait. In a competitive game where you are trying to control as many variables as possible this simply isn’t a good option. I could never see myself taking this over the +2W trait or unstoppable destroyer.
So for clarification, would this make the damage a d6 roll, or (d3=x)2 Just asking because that SC has the chance to shoot for 12 damage then do 30 damage in melee. Tell me that isn't a distraction carnifex that a knight list runner wouldn't crap his pants over. Now he would obviously be more scared of the triple Telemon threat and dread host. But the SC Vertus with this strat is easily a good and useful option, it's not trash tier.
considering vehicles will be able to shoot into combat with non-blast weaponry it isnt a huge deal for the caladius.
Its a pretty difficult feat to charge one with tanglefoot and gravitic backwash, so if they get it off im fine with not being able to shoot any target i want.
Any unit that charges one and doesnt kill it is gonna take a butt whipping though.
Biker captains will have to change how they play now, but you could always give one the Destroyer trait so they cant be tied up and still play it like it used to.
Well Pullen did good job explaining why he doesn’t like bikes in 9th edition here. Also RIP eldar.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Also the 5+ CP regen isn't good since you can get an Inquisitor to do the same thing and give that Shield Captain something else.
The inquisitor warlord trait only works when your opponent uses a stratagem, and you roll once for each stratagem they use. This means in a majority of games you won’t be getting as much CP back from it, as lot of opponents will spend their CP on expensive stratagem/ might play around your ability.
Also, an inquisitor is a 55 point HQ. The deny and power they offer is a nice bonus, but not worth a full HQ slot by itself and is pricey for the cost you pay. I think most lists in 9th are going to want a combination of a bike captain, terminator captain, and Valoris. Also, most lists are going to be a single battalion meaning their is now an opportunity cost beyond 1 CP and 55 points to take an inquisitor (either an HQ model you wanted to take, or whatever the CP cost an extra detachment will cost you).
Salt donkey wrote: Well Pullen did good job explaining why he doesn’t like bikes in 9th edition here. Also RIP eldar.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Also the 5+ CP regen isn't good since you can get an Inquisitor to do the same thing and give that Shield Captain something else.
The inquisitor warlord trait only works when your opponent uses a stratagem, and you roll once for each stratagem they use. This means in a majority of games you won’t be getting as much CP back from it, as lot of opponents will spend their CP on expensive stratagem/ might play around your ability.
Also, an inquisitor is a 55 point HQ. The deny and power they offer is a nice bonus, but not worth a full HQ slot by itself and is pricey for the cost you pay. I think most lists in 9th are going to want a combination of a bike captain, terminator captain, and Valoris. Also, most lists are going to be a single battalion meaning their is now an opportunity cost beyond 1 CP and 55 points to take an inquisitor (either an HQ model you wanted to take, or whatever the CP cost an extra detachment will cost you).
You mean that my opponent might not spend their CP as well to just avoid the 55 point investment from doing its own thing? Shouldn't that be considered a win? Also those Powers and Denying are more than worth it. Don't forget Xenos, which have that Warlord Trait, get Veil as a power which is worth a lot.
Salt donkey wrote: Well Pullen did good job explaining why he doesn’t like bikes in 9th edition here. Also RIP eldar.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Also the 5+ CP regen isn't good since you can get an Inquisitor to do the same thing and give that Shield Captain something else.
The inquisitor warlord trait only works when your opponent uses a stratagem, and you roll once for each stratagem they use. This means in a majority of games you won’t be getting as much CP back from it, as lot of opponents will spend their CP on expensive stratagem/ might play around your ability.
Also, an inquisitor is a 55 point HQ. The deny and power they offer is a nice bonus, but not worth a full HQ slot by itself and is pricey for the cost you pay. I think most lists in 9th are going to want a combination of a bike captain, terminator captain, and Valoris. Also, most lists are going to be a single battalion meaning their is now an opportunity cost beyond 1 CP and 55 points to take an inquisitor (either an HQ model you wanted to take, or whatever the CP cost an extra detachment will cost you).
You mean that my opponent might not spend their CP as well to just avoid the 55 point investment from doing its own thing? Shouldn't that be considered a win? Also those Powers and Denying are more than worth it. Don't forget Xenos, which have that Warlord Trait, get Veil as a power which is worth a lot.
You’re opponent has a lot of latitude to play around this. They could not spend CP at a point to completely deny you, they might spend less to give less of chance, they could try to spend more after you gotten your already got CP back for the battle round, or they could just ignore this ability. The point here is this trait gives your opponents choices to play around it, which is always worse than not given them a choice. You could also be playing someone who spends a lot of CP pregame/ for detachments, where this becomes worse by default. As a someone who’s run plenty of the these types of relics in 8th, I can assure you that the captain commander trait is much better than the inquisitors.
Also you ignored my biggest problem with generic inquisitor. He/she takes up an extremely valuable HQ slot. You defeat the purpose of the warlord trait if you take a detachment just for an inquisitor. And if you want a pysker for your army now you can take that new sister’s woman and harlequin they just previewed.
Now I won’t argue that an inquisitor is a good pick up for a 2 detachment list, but that’s not going to be every list.
So how are people equipping their Sisters of Silence when run in a Talons list? It seems like the bolt guns may be the way to go because it allows you to put pressure on psychic characters earlier on, but I wanted to see what everyone else was having luck with?
godswildcard wrote: So how are people equipping their Sisters of Silence when run in a Talons list? It seems like the bolt guns may be the way to go because it allows you to put pressure on psychic characters earlier on, but I wanted to see what everyone else was having luck with?
Bolters or flamers for sure. I like the bolters because they're cheap but they inherently make the Sisters want to stay in the back, which means their aura isn't doing much. It's short range and they need to get close to have it take some effect (and body block Smite), so flamers seem ideal. The flamers are Assault so Move 7" then +1D6" for Advance then flame if something is close. Should keep them up ahead of the Custodes while still having a more palatable threat range than the swords.
This is what I thought too. Assassins can also go in our detachments now and not take up a slot. Patrol detachments, as a base for a 1 detachment build, seem ideal. CP cost is still refunded by Warlord and you get 2 slots for Elites + free slot Inq and free assassin.
Oh that’s good to know. Not sure why I thought otherwise. That does make them a better choice then.
Ehhh, you have to take a generic for the 5+ regen. Hector Rex is right there and he is really good with a ton of denies and a psychic hood. The warlord trait is locked to Xenos and he's Malleus.
That said, maybe the new Xenos inquisitor from the PA after ours will be worth it. She might be able to take the 5+ trait.
godswildcard wrote: So how are people equipping their Sisters of Silence when run in a Talons list? It seems like the bolt guns may be the way to go because it allows you to put pressure on psychic characters earlier on, but I wanted to see what everyone else was having luck with?
Haven’t made much other than a sketch of a couple lists (waiting for 9th points values) but I’m leaning toward boltguns for the cheapness, flamers might have a place if there are more detailed terrain rules incoming. The swords just aren’t that good in a list that already has Custodes.
I know it’s a lot of points, but I’ve been thinking of the Talon combo, not because either is impressive but having the sisters strats on a character makes it more likely you’ll get to use them...that said Aleya is a couple Eliminator squads from seeing the Emperor. I’m thinking if you do include sisters, they might be worthwhile as reserves in some cases since they are low power level and the stuff that sucks (smites, deepstrike suicides) aren’t happening until turn 2.
stratigo wrote: I'd caution everyone to wait on making any additional forgeworld purchases until after GW reveals what they are doing with forgeworld rules. Provided that's why you are looking at the models. Forge world usually experiences a lot of fluctuation in its rules
I agree but fwiw the rules have been done by GW and have been playtested in 9th. Also Brian Pullen said the single biggest winner for our whole faction was the Telemon so I reckon we’ll be seeing plenty of them.
stratigo wrote: I'd caution everyone to wait on making any additional forgeworld purchases until after GW reveals what they are doing with forgeworld rules. Provided that's why you are looking at the models. Forge world usually experiences a lot of fluctuation in its rules
I agree but fwiw the rules have been done by GW and have been playtested in 9th. Also Brian Pullen said the single biggest winner for our whole faction was the Telemon so I reckon we’ll be seeing plenty of them.
Sure. I think this'll be the case. But you're dropping almost 200 dollars on a model that you don't know the rules for yet, and that's a risky endeavor. But mostly I'd eye terminators to see if their points fluctuate wildly.
godswildcard wrote: So how are people equipping their Sisters of Silence when run in a Talons list? It seems like the bolt guns may be the way to go because it allows you to put pressure on psychic characters earlier on, but I wanted to see what everyone else was having luck with?
I'm planning on running 2x5 Prosecutors to hold 'safe' objectives, and 1x5 Vigilators to help protect my forward elements from cover.
I find it kind of hilarious that we were all excited for our changes, and thought we were hot stuff, then GW drops the Tau changes and they completely break the Overwatch rules, and I'm just sitting here, barely containing my ire. Whelp, here's another edition of watching my deepstrikers get shot off the table by skinny blue space Marxists.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I find it kind of hilarious that we were all excited for our changes, and thought we were hot stuff, then GW drops the Tau changes and they completely break the Overwatch rules, and I'm just sitting here, barely containing my ire. Whelp, here's another edition of watching my deepstrikers get shot off the table by skinny blue space Marxists.
Cheer up! Take Hector Rex! For 100 points you get a deep striking Inquisitor that can shut off Overwatch!
We’re good against Tau now. So Tau weapons are mostly AP1/2 (check our strats), Allarus can shut down overwatch, and how many Tau units have fly? Plus they can’t just castle now, we take the centre and then they’ve got to come to us.
It’s gonna be Ad Mech (everyone is gonna struggle there) and maybe a few others like Space Wolves who give us a run for our money. Though they may be factions that see significant points increases (people already working out the 22PL examples featured today).
So I strongly advise you to play more Tau Players. They can get 5 Markerlights put on any charging unit for 1 CP, and they can get +1 in overwatch, so 5-6 to hit, then they can re-roll 1s. They also can somehow turn their weapons into pistols 2 and shoot before the fight phase (I think I got cheated on this) Basically, they can shoot you off the table in overwatch with their base infantry. Honestly, I am really confused to how elite melee armies are supposed to take on Tau now, if GW is just going to go backwards on the whole overwatch BS. That was such a buff to us, and now there is a precedent for saying you can ignore it. So expect Eldar and others to get similar buffs.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So I strongly advise you to play more Tau Players. They can get 5 Markerlights put on any charging unit for 1 CP, and they can get +1 in overwatch, so 5-6 to hit, then they can re-roll 1s. They also can somehow turn their weapons into pistols 2 and shoot before the fight phase (I think I got cheated on this) Basically, they can shoot you off the table in overwatch with their base infantry. Honestly, I am really confused to how elite melee armies are supposed to take on Tau now, if GW is just going to go backwards on the whole overwatch BS. That was such a buff to us, and now there is a precedent for saying you can ignore it. So expect Eldar and others to get similar buffs.
Literally none of this is true. The Coordinated Engagement strat functions only in the shooting phase, and only benefits XV8 units. Furthermore, Markerlights do not allow for 5+ Overwatch (Hit bonuses do not impact Overwatch accuracy). The only interaction Markerlights have during the Charge phase is for Enclave units who innately count as having 1 when firing at close range (which encompasses most Charges).
Point Blank Volley likewise only functions in the shooting phase, and only changes Pulse Blaster, Rifle and Carbine weapons to Pistol 2. It does not for a second grant the ability to shoot them in your opponents turn, or use them as de facto melee weapons.
Eihnlazer wrote: Ive honestly never had a problem againgst tau with my custodes.
They certainly can build anti-custodes lists, but if they arent tailoring then they arent all that nasty for us.
I've had more trouble against chaos daemon engines and harlequins personally.
Competitive Tau are and have always been a hard counter to custodes melee. The only time tau don't do good against custodes is when custodes forge world tanks were rocking up the meta, and that's because they outshot tau, EVEN considering the drones. But this wasn't a good thing.
We'll see if they make any changes to charging, better terrain may make it easier to play against tau. Provided you have enough of it. But that's more terrain than the big competitive boards usually brought, and tau durability is essentially makes a 1 turn alpha strike attempt a non issue. There's no way in one fight phase to do enough damage to a tau castle that it cannot be absorbed by an arbitrary amount of drones.
Eihnlazer wrote: Ive honestly never had a problem againgst tau with my custodes.
They certainly can build anti-custodes lists, but if they arent tailoring then they arent all that nasty for us.
I've had more trouble against chaos daemon engines and harlequins personally.
Competitive Tau are and have always been a hard counter to custodes melee. The only time tau don't do good against custodes is when custodes forge world tanks were rocking up the meta, and that's because they outshot tau, EVEN considering the drones. But this wasn't a good thing.
We'll see if they make any changes to charging, better terrain may make it easier to play against tau. Provided you have enough of it. But that's more terrain than the big competitive boards usually brought, and tau durability is essentially makes a 1 turn alpha strike attempt a non issue. There's no way in one fight phase to do enough damage to a tau castle that it cannot be absorbed by an arbitrary amount of drones.
Hard counter is a bit too strong. I fought two Tau at last NOVA with a Jetbike list and it was nail-biting but I won both. These were decently ranked players so we're not talking total newbies.
I would say it's a rough fight but hard counter goes a bit far unless you're foot slogging the whole army.
Eihnlazer wrote: Ive honestly never had a problem againgst tau with my custodes.
They certainly can build anti-custodes lists, but if they arent tailoring then they arent all that nasty for us.
I've had more trouble against chaos daemon engines and harlequins personally.
Competitive Tau are and have always been a hard counter to custodes melee. The only time tau don't do good against custodes is when custodes forge world tanks were rocking up the meta, and that's because they outshot tau, EVEN considering the drones. But this wasn't a good thing.
We'll see if they make any changes to charging, better terrain may make it easier to play against tau. Provided you have enough of it. But that's more terrain than the big competitive boards usually brought, and tau durability is essentially makes a 1 turn alpha strike attempt a non issue. There's no way in one fight phase to do enough damage to a tau castle that it cannot be absorbed by an arbitrary amount of drones.
Hard counter is a bit too strong. I fought two Tau at last NOVA with a Jetbike list and it was nail-biting but I won both. These were decently ranked players so we're not talking total newbies.
I would say it's a rough fight but hard counter goes a bit far unless you're foot slogging the whole army.
What kind of list did those two tau player play? was it the 40+ shield drone and 3 Riptides?
So what is everyone suggesting for troop load out? At this point I'm kinda leaning towards sword and board x 9 for troops, just as obj holders and maybe some late game (once they trundle up the board) action. They aren't exactly meant for speedy wins, and there are no super beneficial strats for our troop options?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So what is everyone suggesting for troop load out? At this point I'm kinda leaning towards sword and board x 9 for troops, just as obj holders and maybe some late game (once they trundle up the board) action. They aren't exactly meant for speedy wins, and there are no super beneficial strats for our troop options?
Sagittarum Custodians.
For roughly the same price as guard, you get a squad that can camp objectives and punish with heavy bolter equivalents. Guard are slightly more durable, but they're generalists that fail to shine and are left trundling up the board.
I could see maybe a 2 Sag/1 Guard combination to fill out a Battalion for a bit more defense/mid-field pressure, but Guard are in a really awkward state unless they get some strats that don't punish a mixed loadout and/or a competitive points drop.
There may be value in non-min squads so that we aren't at such risk for losing character protection, but Biker Captains are great Distraction Carnifexes and it may not be worth running a defensive Vexilus.
Personally I don’t see Sags being any good at all. Their shooting is mediocre and you want troops to perform actions (giving up their shooting etc). That 3++ is invaluable and hard to see last for obj campers.
So I've not been up to date with the discussion, but is the jury still out on whether a telemon with double fist is now worth considering, or is the fist/storm cannon combo still always better?
Also the new combat patrol mode looks kinda fun, especially since when I am going to finish my allarus captain I'd have a fully painted combat patrol with 3 guards, a galatus dread and said captain, which would be the first time I'd have a fully painted "army".
Malefic666 wrote: Personally I don’t see Sags being any good at all. Their shooting is mediocre and you want troops to perform actions (giving up their shooting etc). That 3++ is invaluable and hard to see last for obj campers.
What do you mean by giving up shooting to perform actions? Have I completely missed something in the rules?
Eihnlazer wrote: Ive honestly never had a problem againgst tau with my custodes.
They certainly can build anti-custodes lists, but if they arent tailoring then they arent all that nasty for us.
I've had more trouble against chaos daemon engines and harlequins personally.
Competitive Tau are and have always been a hard counter to custodes melee. The only time tau don't do good against custodes is when custodes forge world tanks were rocking up the meta, and that's because they outshot tau, EVEN considering the drones. But this wasn't a good thing.
We'll see if they make any changes to charging, better terrain may make it easier to play against tau. Provided you have enough of it. But that's more terrain than the big competitive boards usually brought, and tau durability is essentially makes a 1 turn alpha strike attempt a non issue. There's no way in one fight phase to do enough damage to a tau castle that it cannot be absorbed by an arbitrary amount of drones.
Hard counter is a bit too strong. I fought two Tau at last NOVA with a Jetbike list and it was nail-biting but I won both. These were decently ranked players so we're not talking total newbies.
I would say it's a rough fight but hard counter goes a bit far unless you're foot slogging the whole army.
What kind of list did those two tau player play? was it the 40+ shield drone and 3 Riptides?
The first one did. The second one was 3 Riptides and 3 Broadsides with a bit less support as a result.
For the first, I hid in the L ruins (I had 10 Jetbikes) until bottom of turn 2. Then I jumped out and put about 100 hurricane bolter shots into the shield drones to cut down on his bodyguard ability and one squad + captain made a charge I believe.
As someone who regularly plays against Custodes, Sword and Board troops with a vexilla are a nightmare to deal with. Just the perspective from the other side
Thing is, I don't like the range on Sag. At that shooting range they are well within heavy vehicle range, which will delete them pretty easily for their cost. 9th is shaping up to be heavy on the vehicles, so I am banking on guard squads that a maxed on survivability and objective holding. Shooting be damned. They are there to score objectives, and dissuade charges. Like all Custodes they will still struggle with a mob of boys or blood letters, but then you should be able to defend their flanks with the rest of your stuff. The only thing I don't see happening is anyone using the melta spears or pyrite weapons? Like, I don;t see the point.
Tiberias wrote: So I've not been up to date with the discussion, but is the jury still out on whether a telemon with double fist is now worth considering, or is the fist/storm cannon combo still always better?
Someone did some math earlier in the thread, it looks like having a gun is generally better.
Tiberias wrote: So I've not been up to date with the discussion, but is the jury still out on whether a telemon with double fist is now worth considering, or is the fist/storm cannon combo still always better?
Someone did some math earlier in the thread, it looks like having a gun is generally better.
That someone was me. It's on page 141 of this thread
Tiberias wrote: So I've not been up to date with the discussion, but is the jury still out on whether a telemon with double fist is now worth considering, or is the fist/storm cannon combo still always better?
Someone did some math earlier in the thread, it looks like having a gun is generally better.
That someone was me. It's on page 141 of this thread
Thank you showing me where to look and for doing the math.
Only reason to run double fist is to save points. I might do it in my list since it came out to 1650 even. The storm cannon is usually always worth taking though.
Eihnlazer wrote: Only reason to run double fist is to save points. I might do it in my list since it came out to 1650 even. The storm cannon is usually always worth taking though.
For now.
Again, careful. Even it telemons stay awesome (and they probably will), their best loadouts may change.
People dislike paying 30 points for +1 melee attack, but techniqually you are also getting a second plasma flamer as well.
They probably should discount the second fist by 5 points though, like they do with most paired weaponry since its not even close to as useful as the first.
Malefic666 wrote: Personally I don’t see Sags being any good at all. Their shooting is mediocre and you want troops to perform actions (giving up their shooting etc). That 3++ is invaluable and hard to see last for obj campers.
What do you mean by giving up shooting to perform actions? Have I completely missed something in the rules?
“ Actions
These are used instead of shooting and swinging a weapon. here are some examples shared in the Warhammer 40k Article.
"The new edition also adds actions to Warhammer 40,000. Traditionally, your models could either stand near objectives or shoot/punch. No longer! Now you can perform rituals, plant homing beacons, raise banners on key objectives and more. This creates dynamic moments where you may need to decide between firing at the enemy or bravely accomplishing a mission."
We know that some of our troops are probably going to perform actions. This is just another reason why Sags aren’t first choice imo.
We don't know are there any primary objectives that require that. For secondaries just pick killy stuff or something else custodians excel at. Just because there's secondary with actions doesn't mean you have to take it.
We have no idea what FW changes are in store for 9th. Just like no one here has any idea what will be good in 9th. We could say Telemon with Dread host will be boss, until they drop a release that shows Deathguard get +2 to wound Dreadnaughts on their bolters, or some such stupidity. I caution anyone against dropping 200 USD on a model that may be nerfed into oblivion by the time we are actually able to start playing again in 2022, that is if the War of the South Part 2 doesn't end up killing us all. Hold off, use this time to paint up the models you have in boxes, but haven't assembled. We all have them. But don't make any big purchases right as a new edition is dropping. Seriously.
Malefic666 wrote: Personally I don’t see Sags being any good at all. Their shooting is mediocre and you want troops to perform actions (giving up their shooting etc). That 3++ is invaluable and hard to see last for obj campers.
What do you mean by giving up shooting to perform actions? Have I completely missed something in the rules?
“ Actions
These are used instead of shooting and swinging a weapon. here are some examples shared in the Warhammer 40k Article.
"The new edition also adds actions to Warhammer 40,000. Traditionally, your models could either stand near objectives or shoot/punch. No longer! Now you can perform rituals, plant homing beacons, raise banners on key objectives and more. This creates dynamic moments where you may need to decide between firing at the enemy or bravely accomplishing a mission."
We know that some of our troops are probably going to perform actions. This is just another reason why Sags aren’t first choice imo.
Which means they're still better than regular Guard since, when they aren't performing actions, they can actually contribute with shooting. You're really not doing a good job of defending them. The superior shooting > 3++, simply because if the opponent wants either gone it'll be through Mortal Wounds.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: We have no idea what FW changes are in store for 9th. Just like no one here has any idea what will be good in 9th. We could say Telemon with Dread host will be boss, until they drop a release that shows Deathguard get +2 to wound Dreadnaughts on their bolters, or some such stupidity. I caution anyone against dropping 200 USD on a model that may be nerfed into oblivion by the time we are actually able to start playing again in 2022, that is if the War of the South Part 2 doesn't end up killing us all. Hold off, use this time to paint up the models you have in boxes, but haven't assembled. We all have them. But don't make any big purchases right as a new edition is dropping. Seriously.
This might come as a surprise, but many people buy centerpiece models like a telemon because the actually enjoy building and painting it. Sure, we don't know what 9th will bring in its entirety, but that should not deter people to buy something they really enjoy. Also you can play models that are bad and still have fun if you are not constantly playing tournaments. I've been playing my galatus dread in most of my games in 8th and had a blast with it, even though it's terrible objectively.
Malefic666 wrote: Personally I don’t see Sags being any good at all. Their shooting is mediocre and you want troops to perform actions (giving up their shooting etc). That 3++ is invaluable and hard to see last for obj campers.
What do you mean by giving up shooting to perform actions? Have I completely missed something in the rules?
“ Actions
These are used instead of shooting and swinging a weapon. here are some examples shared in the Warhammer 40k Article.
"The new edition also adds actions to Warhammer 40,000. Traditionally, your models could either stand near objectives or shoot/punch. No longer! Now you can perform rituals, plant homing beacons, raise banners on key objectives and more. This creates dynamic moments where you may need to decide between firing at the enemy or bravely accomplishing a mission."
We know that some of our troops are probably going to perform actions. This is just another reason why Sags aren’t first choice imo.
Which means they're still better than regular Guard since, when they aren't performing actions, they can actually contribute with shooting. You're really not doing a good job of defending them. The superior shooting > 3++, simply because if the opponent wants either gone it'll be through Mortal Wounds.
Take Sags if you want to. My opinion is their shooting is mediocre, and as the game will be smaller and focussed around the centre of the board, I want the defensive boost of 3++ for my troops, especially since with a cheap inquisitor we’re not bad at stopping psychic mortals now. I’m not trying to persuade you otherwise, whatever makes us happy at the end of the day.
So, aside from the Ares, what do we have that has titanic keyword of is Superheavyonly?
Because this new rule really hurt me (Just bought 2 Baneblades to paint up) Now they are still viable if the Blast thing continues, but 6CP cost if you take a superheavy?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, aside from the Ares, what do we have that has titanic keyword of is Superheavyonly?
Because this new rule really hurt me (Just bought 2 Baneblades to paint up) Now they are still viable if the Blast thing continues, but 6CP cost if you take a superheavy?
The Ares doesn't have the titanic keyword and it is not a LoW it is normal flyer. That could change in 9th but i really hop it doesn't.
greyknight12 wrote: No forgeworld stuff in the leaks, but the Allarus grenade launchers are on the list of “blast weapons”. Also Valerian and Aleya are 200 pts
Valerian and Aleya being 200 points seems pretty legit, as that is high enough to ensure they never see any use whatsoever. Certainly you won’t be putting them on the table for Valerian’s good looks. “No I’m not salty they ruined some of BL best characters, what gave you that idea?”
On a more serious note Allarus continue to look better and better. Hopefully their points aren’t too high as at the moment they look very competitive.
So Siegler played Perry 3 days ago. Siegler used Custodes. They used what 9th rules they know + ITC Champion Missions. Custodes bodied Perry's Chaos/Disco-Lord list (score was 36-15).
Reviewing it after, Siegler said the Achillus was the worst thing in there and an easy remove for revisions. He was a huge fan of the Aquillons and the Telemon, saying they were the two best things in the list.
So without even seeing the other list, it is pretty simple in this flux period to completely shut down weak chaos lists with Custodes. Although the choice of Aquillon over allarus is confusing, given their recent buffs. The SoS will play hell over a Chaos caster list fairly well, and then you are facing everything else. Good stuff.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So without even seeing the other list, it is pretty simple in this flux period to completely shut down weak chaos lists with Custodes. Although the choice of Aquillon over allarus is confusing, given their recent buffs. The SoS will play hell over a Chaos caster list fairly well, and then you are facing everything else. Good stuff.
I don't have a read out of the whole list, but it seems to have been 3 Patrol Detachments and included some cultists, Bile and 2 Disco-Lords. He didn't have much psychic powers but they did mention Warptime in there which Siegler was concerned about.
Both players agreed Custodes could show up at any major GT and go positive. They said you'd need some bracket luck to get 1st at something like SoCal/LVO. Perry thinks we'll have issues having enough bodies for screens. Siegler thinks certain armies will be able to bring a withering amount of power and melt us. Namely, AdMech.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So without even seeing the other list, it is pretty simple in this flux period to completely shut down weak chaos lists with Custodes. Although the choice of Aquillon over allarus is confusing, given their recent buffs. The SoS will play hell over a Chaos caster list fairly well, and then you are facing everything else. Good stuff.
Aquillons got a similar amount of buffs and they get the benefit of a strictly superior melee weapon. Like vastly superior.
I just saw the Eradicator squad. I honestly don't care anymore. 3 man squads with 3w, t5. that essentially have Assault 2 multimeltas? Yeah, We were all like, wow the Telemons look amazing. Meanwhile GW is like, we need to make super-overpowered Devestator guys.
I give up trying to figure out what is of any value. GW is just making up stuff at this point. Oh, and they are +1 to wound with the Salamander trait.
GW walks into a bank: I have come here to destroy knights, and create Balance, and I'm all out of balance.
So the only thing I have to fall back on here is that no matter what the outcome of a Custodes matchup is, the Administratum will classify it as a victory for the Custodes and shoot anyone who disagrees.
holy mother of pearls is this a nerf to transports.
You have to disembark wholly within 3" so it nerfs their movement alot and when disembarking destroyed transports makes it alot hard to escape surrounding enemy models. There is a strat that lets you disembark wholly with 6" though for 1 CP.
Psychers cant fall back and cast anymore either. And you have to cast all your powers with a psycher before you move to a second one. No more doing your best spells then bouncing back to smite after you see what succeeds. Big bonus for us.
However, you can now hit units that have heroic interventioned just as though you declared them the target of a charge. They no longer get a free round.
Change to CP reroll hurts us. You have to reroll the whole dice roll, so both dice for the charge. This makes it slightly harder to get reliable charges in with our new-fangled 3D6-drop-one strat.
Twilight Pathways wrote: Change to CP reroll hurts us. You have to reroll the whole dice roll, so both dice for the charge. This makes it slightly harder to get reliable charges in with our new-fangled 3D6-drop-one strat.
I can live with it, pretty minor difference really if you look at the percentages. The more significant loss on our part is not being able to reroll things like Tanglefoot, but every faction will have something like that which was lost (Vect etc).
edit:
Actually - doing the math myself I'm getting a significantly better chance of hitting a 9 inch charge by re-rolling the whole '3d6 drop one' test than just rerolling a single dice, ~69% vs ~77%. Maybe I'm a little fuzzy this morning, can anyone else confirm?
Eihnlazer wrote: holy mother of pearls is this a nerf to transports.
You have to disembark wholly within 3" so it nerfs their movement alot and when disembarking destroyed transports makes it alot hard to escape surrounding enemy models. There is a strat that lets you disembark wholly with 6" though for 1 CP.
Psychers cant fall back and cast anymore either. And you have to cast all your powers with a psycher before you move to a second one. No more doing your best spells then bouncing back to smite after you see what succeeds. Big bonus for us.
However, you can now hit units that have heroic interventioned just as though you declared them the target of a charge. They no longer get a free round.
Transports weren't terribly popular this edition anyway unless they were a gunboat too.
I'm not seeing anything that different than how it used to be? Quote the issue?
Im assuming its to do with how attacks must continue to be allocated to a particular model throughout the entire phase now, regardless of whether or not it has taken damage, so you can't chop and change allocating high AP attacks to Shield Guard, and lasguns onto spear models. Its in the 'Making attacks' section, under the heading 3. ALLOCATE ATTACKS (on the next page).
Minor issue, ignore that guys militant "NERFS" hyperbole.
Ok, then I misread it's intent. I thought it was stictly Melee phase, where by if my unit deals 1 attack to a model, all further melee attacks by that unit have to be directed at that model. That is a big nerf if you think about a squad of 5 bikes charging a mob of 30 boys. Can you clear up the confusion? Do all my unit's attacks then have to go at that one model, or can they overflow to the rest of the unit?
Reviewing it after, Siegler said the Achillus was the worst thing in there and an easy remove for revisions. He was a huge fan of the Aquillons and the Telemon, saying they were the two best things in the list.
So they didn't change fall back after all....that is really disappointing.
My main gripe with 8th was that you can just fall back from melee and then shoot the enemy unit that just charged you with your whole army. I guess we'll see whether the new terrain rules can mitigate this a bit, but I think it still sucks, that they didn't change it.
Eihnlazer wrote: The model they are refferring to in the allocate section is the model attacking.
You dont declare which enemy model your attacks are going into.
You just can no longer say stuff like "I want to send 2 spear attacks, one sword, and one misericordia attack into this dude".
You have to do all of a single models attacks before moving onto another models attacks.
That is of course correct, but in my opinion it won't help at all. The unit that actually falls back was never the issue, but the rest of the enemy army that will delete your unit in their next shooting phase. You still can't deny fall back except your faction has a special rule to do so and now you can escape even when tri pointed, which is a bargain because when you can delete an expensive unit like most of ours in your next shooting phase paying 2cp to fall back is a small price to pay.
If anything these new rules make me hate falling back even more. Such an utterly dumb rule.
The leak that is more intriguing is the new Primaris stormshield guys, because the rules for a stormshield on their dataslate are: 4++, +1 to save.
Assuming that is universally how they work, it's great news for shield-guard who will still have a 3++ because of Aegis but now walk around with a 1+/3++ in the open. Meanwhile shields on opposing armies are stopping less of our (generally) AP-3 melee attacks.
1. Fly keyword doesnt allow you to shoot after falling back.
2. Psychers cant cast powers after they fall back.
3. Because of new coherancy rules its harder to fall back without loosing models.
4. Tri-pointing a model from more than one unit will still keep you locked in since only one can float out for 2 CP.
The loss of tripointing is a big nerf to every combat army in the game. Custodes have tough enough models that it isn't deadly to us, just kind of frustrating. But bloodletter bombs, GSC assault units? They're pretty much non viable to play with now.
For what its worth, the 'Crusade Relics' section of the new rules has the following generic rules device:
So the rules team are cognisant of the possibility of a 1+ save characteristic, and hopefully also the mechanics of how they ought to work. Bodes well for the chances of Custodes Storm Shields adopting the same rules that the new marine ones just have, and a revised FAQ set that doesn't break how this kind of thing should interact with AP.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So is that where people are getting the 1+3++ idea from? That can't be serious? If they are in cover then what they are untargetable?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So is that where people are getting the 1+3++ idea from? That can't be serious? If they are in cover then what they are untargetable?
I mean, even if they change it so that its just +1 to the dice roll its good. Means if your in light cover you ignore ap 1 and 2 with your stormshield boys.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So is that where people are getting the 1+3++ idea from? That can't be serious? If they are in cover then what they are untargetable?
Basically there's a clause in the rulebook that a dice can't be modified past a 1. Since the new stormshield is +1 to the save characteristic not dice roll you effectively auto-pass armour saves since Ap can never bring the dice roll below your save. Unmodified 1's always fail however so stormshields on anything with a 2+ save are essentially 2+ invul saves.
nordsturmking wrote: The question is: Do you think GW wants everyone with 1+ armor save from a storm shield to ignore AP? No in don't think so. It is not going to happen.
I also don't think its going to happen. But don't be so quick to think that GW automatically doesn't want it to happen, there is a precedent in Age of Sigmar as I've recently found out.
The Bastiladon model in its most recent rules iteration has a +1 save characteristic and the same kind of questions were raised about it ignoring AP. GW released an FAQ dealing with it, and actually ruled IN FAVOR of a +1 Sv Characteristic functionally ignoring all weapon Rends (what they call AP in AoS). See this link explaining it:
Now its not quite as game breaking as it might be in 40k, as mortal wounds are even more significant in Sigmar and I also believe that there is some mechanism that reduces save characteristic as the model takes damage (don't quote me, I don't play that game). Food for thought anyway.
Hey everyone, I've been skimming over this and other threads recently but I'm not really all caught up on everything changing in 9th. Can anyone tell me a list of the major changes to the game that will really affect custodes? Aside from the obvious of 12CP (very happy about that )
Can't wait to get back playing something fresh
This does make sword-and-board custodian better, but then they need to be because space marines basically have their own very close equivalent, with S5 T5 Sv2+ AP-3 D2 heavy melee infantry in the form of bladeguard.
locarno24 wrote: This does make sword-and-board custodian better, but then they need to be because space marines basically have their own very close equivalent, with S5 T5 Sv2+ AP-3 D2 heavy melee infantry in the form of bladeguard.
locarno24 wrote: This does make sword-and-board custodian better, but then they need to be because space marines basically have their own very close equivalent, with S5 T5 Sv2+ AP-3 D2 heavy melee infantry in the form of bladeguard.
I think Blageguard are only T4.
Yep. Blade guard didn't get into the aggressor suits, though they still were granted a third wound inexplicably.
Indeed, blade guard are probably, in the context of a space marine army and all the support they can get, better than custodian guard.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
McMagnus Mindbullets wrote: Hey everyone, I've been skimming over this and other threads recently but I'm not really all caught up on everything changing in 9th. Can anyone tell me a list of the major changes to the game that will really affect custodes? Aside from the obvious of 12CP (very happy about that )
Can't wait to get back playing something fresh
Truthfully? Until we know the points, 9th itself has had very little effect on custodes. But PA had a big change, particularly in the viability of terminators and dreadnoughts and venatari. GW could still clobber all the units PA buffed with points increases, or they could decide they sold enough bikes and make them 120 points each and untakeable. But from just the core rules of 9th and the missions, custodes aren't super effected outside CP.
So I was watching Table top tactics new "How to play Custodes in 9th" and he mentioned a different interpretation of the Stooping Dive Strat then I have ever used, and I wanted to check with the group to see if you think this is how to use it.
His Version:
1. Enemy declares charge on bikes.
2. Enemy makes charge rolls
3. Enemy moves unit.
4. Declare Swooping dive strat and charge
5. Put you bikes BEHIND the charging unit, and proceed with phases.
My version is basically always been when my opponent declares a charge, I can basically play Counterspell. But I have to declare it prior to him moving models. Have I always been doing it wrong? Is there a gentlemen's rule for when you should declare your counter charge? The specific wording is that it has to be used at THE END of the opponent's charge phase, isn't that after all charges have been declared and rolled out?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So I was watching Table top tactics new "How to play Custodes in 9th" and he mentioned a different interpretation of the Stooping Dive Strat then I have ever used, and I wanted to check with the group to see if you think this is how to use it.
His Version:
1. Enemy declares charge on bikes.
2. Enemy makes charge rolls
3. Enemy moves unit.
4. Declare Swooping dive strat and charge
5. Put you bikes BEHIND the charging unit, and proceed with phases.
My version is basically always been when my opponent declares a charge, I can basically play Counterspell. But I have to declare it prior to him moving models. Have I always been doing it wrong? Is there a gentlemen's rule for when you should declare your counter charge? The specific wording is that it has to be used at THE END of the opponent's charge phase, isn't that after all charges have been declared and rolled out?
I saw the same video. Re-reading the wording of the card, it does specify "End of your opponent's charge phase"
So, I agree with their interpretation.
The whole point in the video was that he is playing two squads of bikes beside each other. If one squad gets charged, the second bike squad can then immediately do a stooping dive and cripple the enemy unit before it can hit its original target.
He also mentions in the video that is the main reason he plays two squads and not one big unit bikes
I can only say that dread host is a lot of fun. I played a friendly game against orks and tau last weekend and the 3d6 charge from deepstrike is really nice.
I brought a bigger unit of allarus that did some work, an allarus shield captain with the dread host relic and warlord trait who was an absolute beast (albeit not as durable) and an achillus who finally was able to do some work without being immediately shot off the board, though a telemon will almost always be better unfortunately.
Also the captain commander trait that regenerates CP is absolutely amazing. That trait will be my go to in 9th for sure, cause our new strats are way too good to pass up those extra CP.
I loved the part of the video where he talked about the two JBSC combo, where he spent like 12 CP before the game even started just buffing up the two captains. It's going to be a wild ride. Hopefully the points don't shift too wildly to compensate. This waiting on points reveal is killing me.
His idea about the Telemon being a bully blocker for the Flag seems ill-conceived though. The Telemon is still just as vulnerable to massed shooting. Wouldn't a squad of 4 shields be a better bully blocker to move up the board with before Homer-porting in the big stuff? Better yet, just put the flag in a suit of teminator armor and have him drop in turn 2.
locarno24 wrote: This does make sword-and-board custodian better, but then they need to be because space marines basically have their own very close equivalent, with S5 T5 Sv2+ AP-3 D2 heavy melee infantry in the form of bladeguard.
I think Blageguard are only T4.
Yep. Blade guard didn't get into the aggressor suits, though they still were granted a third wound inexplicably.
Indeed, blade guard are probably, in the context of a space marine army and all the support they can get, better than custodian guard..
Apologies - looking at the model I incorrectly though gravis armour. Must be the shoulder pads.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I loved the part of the video where he talked about the two JBSC combo, where he spent like 12 CP before the game even started just buffing up the two captains. It's going to be a wild ride. Hopefully the points don't shift too wildly to compensate. This waiting on points reveal is killing me.
His idea about the Telemon being a bully blocker for the Flag seems ill-conceived though. The Telemon is still just as vulnerable to massed shooting. Wouldn't a squad of 4 shields be a better bully blocker to move up the board with before Homer-porting in the big stuff? Better yet, just put the flag in a suit of teminator armor and have him drop in turn 2.
Our Dreads have a strat to reduce incoming damage by half. It's also already T8 2+/4++/6+++ with 14W. That's probably sliiiiiiightly more durable than 4 shields (12W, T5, 2+/3++ ignore AP-1 and AP-2) but I haven't mathed it. 5 shields will probably hold better, but a Telemon has some ranged contribution to make at least. I'd say it's six of one and half-dozen of the other.
The shields ignore AP currently and can surround the flag. The Telemon wouldn't make it impossible to get to the flag, just difficult. They could charge the flags with MSU. I'm not sure it's better, but the 4x storm shields would be an easier way to defend the flag.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: The shields ignore AP currently and can surround the flag. The Telemon wouldn't make it impossible to get to the flag, just difficult. They could charge the flags with MSU. I'm not sure it's better, but the 4x storm shields would be an easier way to defend the flag.
Good points except 1. The Storm Shield change only applies to Indomitus Marines at the moment, not to anybody else.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I hadn't realized that, but most people I have spoken to apply it to all Storm Shields. So we will have to wait and see.
Yeah, right now we're expecting it to be given to everyone OR FAQ'd out of not working for Indomitus, but until 9th's initial FAQ drops we don't know for sure which way it will go.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I hadn't realized that, but most people I have spoken to apply it to all Storm Shields. So we will have to wait and see.
Yeah, right now we're expecting it to be given to everyone OR FAQ'd out of not working for Indomitus, but until 9th's initial FAQ drops we don't know for sure which way it will go.
Good to know, thank you. That being said I'm really glad I didn't model up 12 new Shield boys. I can only pray to the emperor that GW's normal ineptitude with rules FAQs continues to be a shining example of the effort devoted to the task.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, we haven't seen points yet. Shields could go from a point to 15 per.
It will be very interesting if that becomes the rule for storm shields across the board- personally I like the reduction of 3+ inv everywhere. Always felt a little too good(highly justified for points you pay though), especially on a full, tough, unit.
I'm hoping that the FW stuff doesn't get destroyed. They said they're looking at new indexes, no?
McMagnus Mindbullets wrote: It will be very interesting if that becomes the rule for storm shields across the board- personally I like the reduction of 3+ inv everywhere. Always felt a little too good(highly justified for points you pay though), especially on a full, tough, unit.
I'm hoping that the FW stuff doesn't get destroyed. They said they're looking at new indexes, no?
McMagnus Mindbullets wrote: It will be very interesting if that becomes the rule for storm shields across the board- personally I like the reduction of 3+ inv everywhere. Always felt a little too good(highly justified for points you pay though), especially on a full, tough, unit.
I'm hoping that the FW stuff doesn't get destroyed. They said they're looking at new indexes, no?
Same time as 9th drops I think.
If those would be released at the same time wouldn't we know about is already? I think the FW books will come out at least a few weeks after 9th.
McMagnus Mindbullets wrote: It will be very interesting if that becomes the rule for storm shields across the board- personally I like the reduction of 3+ inv everywhere. Always felt a little too good(highly justified for points you pay though), especially on a full, tough, unit.
I'm hoping that the FW stuff doesn't get destroyed. They said they're looking at new indexes, no?
Same time as 9th drops I think.
If those would be released at the same time wouldn't we know about is already? I think the FW books will come out at least a few weeks after 9th.
People were saying it back in News and Rumor thread in June I think. That's about all I got.
So I got a game in against Death Guard under 9th. We played 1,500 points to simulate price increases for both armies (figure we'll be pleasantly surprised if the price hikes aren't that bad).
I took a Telemon (Arachnus + Caestus), 5x Aquilons (Lasbolters), 5x Custodian Guard (Sword+Board), Trajann, Shield-Captain (Allarus), 10x Witchseekers and 1 Culexus Assassin (so -3 if you're in their combined aura). I gave the Shield-Captain Victor of the Blood Games + Captain-Commander (+2W) and Superior Creation. Shield-Host was Dread Host.
Here are my thoughts as a reasonably competitive player:
1. Custodian Guard did some solid scoring. I parked them, alone and without a HQ, on a more remote objective and made use of Tangle Foot Grenade when they were threatened. The end result was it took way too much of my opponent's resources to even try contesting that spot to be worth it (18x Possessed Bomb).
2. Our version of Transhuman Physiology was great. It let the Custodian Guards also survive that Possessed Bomb, along with Tangle Foot.
3. +2W is probably not necessary as a Captain-Commander trait. It's super strong with Superior Creation, buuuut my the Shield-Captain was already so tough it didn't really matter. He didn't take a single wound the whole game because my opponent mostly ignored him and focused on my non-HQ units.
4. The Telemon was good. I recommend not deep striking him. Just have him walk to a central position while firing your choice of gun arm and Spiculus. He can wall off a good portion of the center of the board as a big bully.
5. A Sisters of Silence unit, just one, is incredibly valuable. Having access to a stratagem to deny a power on a 3+ was crucial to keeping buff units away from the fighting and shutting down an important buff when they got too close.
6. Culexus is great less for the aura and more for forcing enemies to fight last (though I didn't end up using that this game). Pairs well with Aquilons to always make sure they get the first whack even when charged.
7. Trajann is actually kinda 'eh' overall, but the 1D3 CP regen gives him a place I think.
8. Dread Host was great. Rather than try and beta strike an important unit (I went second), I put them on the other side of the board of his Possessed bomb and immediately charged and flipped an objective marker with the stratagem using the Aquilons. They then were positions to shut down half the board unless the Possessed bomb pivoted and thus left the Custodian Guard controlled section alone.
Audustum wrote: So I got a game in against Death Guard under 9th. We played 1,500 points to simulate price increases for both armies (figure we'll be pleasantly surprised if the price hikes aren't that bad).
I took a Telemon (Arachnus + Caestus), 5x Aquilons (Lasbolters), 5x Custodian Guard (Sword+Board), Trajann, Shield-Captain (Allarus), 10x Witchseekers and 1 Culexus Assassin (so -3 if you're in their combined aura). I gave the Shield-Captain Victor of the Blood Games + Captain-Commander (+2W) and Superior Creation. Shield-Host was Dread Host.
Here are my thoughts as a reasonably competitive player:
1. Custodian Guard did some solid scoring. I parked them, alone and without a HQ, on a more remote objective and made use of Tangle Foot Grenade when they were threatened. The end result was it took way too much of my opponent's resources to even try contesting that spot to be worth it (18x Possessed Bomb).
2. Our version of Transhuman Physiology was great. It let the Custodian Guards also survive that Possessed Bomb, along with Tangle Foot.
3. +2W is probably not necessary as a Captain-Commander trait. It's super strong with Superior Creation, buuuut my the Shield-Captain was already so tough it didn't really matter. He didn't take a single wound the whole game because my opponent mostly ignored him and focused on my non-HQ units.
4. The Telemon was good. I recommend not deep striking him. Just have him walk to a central position while firing your choice of gun arm and Spiculus. He can wall off a good portion of the center of the board as a big bully.
5. A Sisters of Silence unit, just one, is incredibly valuable. Having access to a stratagem to deny a power on a 3+ was crucial to keeping buff units away from the fighting and shutting down an important buff when they got too close.
6. Culexus is great less for the aura and more for forcing enemies to fight last (though I didn't end up using that this game). Pairs well with Aquilons to always make sure they get the first whack even when charged.
7. Trajann is actually kinda 'eh' overall, but the 1D3 CP regen gives him a place I think.
8. Dread Host was great. Rather than try and beta strike an important unit (I went second), I put them on the other side of the board of his Possessed bomb and immediately charged and flipped an objective marker with the stratagem using the Aquilons. They then were positions to shut down half the board unless the Possessed bomb pivoted and thus left the Custodian Guard controlled section alone.
Great breakdown. Thanks for posting your experience. I'm still getting used to how tiny armies are going to be next edition. It's nice to see a complete lack of bikes in your list.
Did your units feel more durable with 500 fewer points of enemy gunfire coming their way?
Audustum wrote: So I got a game in against Death Guard under 9th. We played 1,500 points to simulate price increases for both armies (figure we'll be pleasantly surprised if the price hikes aren't that bad).
I took a Telemon (Arachnus + Caestus), 5x Aquilons (Lasbolters), 5x Custodian Guard (Sword+Board), Trajann, Shield-Captain (Allarus), 10x Witchseekers and 1 Culexus Assassin (so -3 if you're in their combined aura). I gave the Shield-Captain Victor of the Blood Games + Captain-Commander (+2W) and Superior Creation. Shield-Host was Dread Host.
Here are my thoughts as a reasonably competitive player:
1. Custodian Guard did some solid scoring. I parked them, alone and without a HQ, on a more remote objective and made use of Tangle Foot Grenade when they were threatened. The end result was it took way too much of my opponent's resources to even try contesting that spot to be worth it (18x Possessed Bomb).
2. Our version of Transhuman Physiology was great. It let the Custodian Guards also survive that Possessed Bomb, along with Tangle Foot.
3. +2W is probably not necessary as a Captain-Commander trait. It's super strong with Superior Creation, buuuut my the Shield-Captain was already so tough it didn't really matter. He didn't take a single wound the whole game because my opponent mostly ignored him and focused on my non-HQ units.
4. The Telemon was good. I recommend not deep striking him. Just have him walk to a central position while firing your choice of gun arm and Spiculus. He can wall off a good portion of the center of the board as a big bully.
5. A Sisters of Silence unit, just one, is incredibly valuable. Having access to a stratagem to deny a power on a 3+ was crucial to keeping buff units away from the fighting and shutting down an important buff when they got too close.
6. Culexus is great less for the aura and more for forcing enemies to fight last (though I didn't end up using that this game). Pairs well with Aquilons to always make sure they get the first whack even when charged.
7. Trajann is actually kinda 'eh' overall, but the 1D3 CP regen gives him a place I think.
8. Dread Host was great. Rather than try and beta strike an important unit (I went second), I put them on the other side of the board of his Possessed bomb and immediately charged and flipped an objective marker with the stratagem using the Aquilons. They then were positions to shut down half the board unless the Possessed bomb pivoted and thus left the Custodian Guard controlled section alone.
Great breakdown. Thanks for posting your experience. I'm still getting used to how tiny armies are going to be next edition. It's nice to see a complete lack of bikes in your list.
Did your units feel more durable with 500 fewer points of enemy gunfire coming their way?
Thanks! Yeah, I wanted to see how foot-slogging felt on the smaller board and so I left the Jetbikes at home. Turns out I was right: the mobility they used to offer isn't nearly as necessary as it is now.
Units felt incredibly durable. Possessed bombs aren't huge shooting lists, but there were still 2 Plagueburst Crawlers shelling me every turn. I lost 2 Custodian Guard, Trajann took some wounds and the Telemon+Culexus+Aquilons ate some mortals when he out-detonated one of Plagueburst Crawlers with a stratagem (the Witchseekers were wiped out by Crawler fire and a charge of Chaos Spawn which are now MUCH faster through most terrain and can get a 5++). The Custodes felt amazingly resilient because:
1. The Custodian Guard took little punishing fire.
2. Forcing powerful units to only wound on a roll of 4+ cuts down their threat significantly.
3. The Aquilons can afford to ignore AP-1 and AP-2 effectively every shooting phase.
4. The new engagement rules made it fairly difficult to get lots of enemies in fighting range while the Custodes, with a much smaller model count, didn't have that issue for counter-attacking.
Hurting us was actually quite the chore. Our widespread possession of ObSec was also quite important since it allowed the Aquilons and Shield-Captain to steal objectives rather than just contest them. I focused most of my attacks on wiping enemy troops and then just tanked the damage from more elite units while scoring.
Audustum wrote: So I got a game in against Death Guard under 9th. We played 1,500 points to simulate price increases for both armies (figure we'll be pleasantly surprised if the price hikes aren't that bad).
I took a Telemon (Arachnus + Caestus), 5x Aquilons (Lasbolters), 5x Custodian Guard (Sword+Board), Trajann, Shield-Captain (Allarus), 10x Witchseekers and 1 Culexus Assassin (so -3 if you're in their combined aura). I gave the Shield-Captain Victor of the Blood Games + Captain-Commander (+2W) and Superior Creation. Shield-Host was Dread Host.
Here are my thoughts as a reasonably competitive player:
1. Custodian Guard did some solid scoring. I parked them, alone and without a HQ, on a more remote objective and made use of Tangle Foot Grenade when they were threatened. The end result was it took way too much of my opponent's resources to even try contesting that spot to be worth it (18x Possessed Bomb).
2. Our version of Transhuman Physiology was great. It let the Custodian Guards also survive that Possessed Bomb, along with Tangle Foot.
3. +2W is probably not necessary as a Captain-Commander trait. It's super strong with Superior Creation, buuuut my the Shield-Captain was already so tough it didn't really matter. He didn't take a single wound the whole game because my opponent mostly ignored him and focused on my non-HQ units.
4. The Telemon was good. I recommend not deep striking him. Just have him walk to a central position while firing your choice of gun arm and Spiculus. He can wall off a good portion of the center of the board as a big bully.
5. A Sisters of Silence unit, just one, is incredibly valuable. Having access to a stratagem to deny a power on a 3+ was crucial to keeping buff units away from the fighting and shutting down an important buff when they got too close.
6. Culexus is great less for the aura and more for forcing enemies to fight last (though I didn't end up using that this game). Pairs well with Aquilons to always make sure they get the first whack even when charged.
7. Trajann is actually kinda 'eh' overall, but the 1D3 CP regen gives him a place I think.
8. Dread Host was great. Rather than try and beta strike an important unit (I went second), I put them on the other side of the board of his Possessed bomb and immediately charged and flipped an objective marker with the stratagem using the Aquilons. They then were positions to shut down half the board unless the Possessed bomb pivoted and thus left the Custodian Guard controlled section alone.
nice break down. i think the points increase wont be that high more like 200ish on a 2k list.
stratigo wrote: Custodes might be the army to beat now with how the points have shaken out.
No one had as generous a touch.
hm i don't think so Custodes were one of the worst army befor PA and points changes. we still need to see the FW datasheets and the tournament missions.
stratigo wrote: Custodes might be the army to beat now with how the points have shaken out.
No one had as generous a touch.
hm i don't think so Custodes were one of the worst army befor PA and points changes. we still need to see the FW datasheets and the tournament missions.
Literally everyone with a competitive eye is going "Wow custodes are looking amazing".
Those new points look tasty compared to other armies. Can someone explain to me though why our worst FW dread, namely the galatus, got more expensive??
Ordana wrote: Custodes finally getting lots of CP without having to soup in a big boon. Point costs are looking good for them.
The biggest 'issue' with 9th might be missions. Putting expensive units on objectives where they do nothing is not great.
I've only done one 9th game so far, but my experience with that was the objects score so many points that it's a fine use for them even at price. Especially if they're Sagittarum and can still shoot.
Reading the values again and looking at the points from other factions we are one of, if not the biggest winner in this.
Somehow this seems strange though. Some units from other factions got a massive hit that does not even seem to be intentional, but an oversight on GWs part.
What I mean by that is, GW has increased the base cost for many units across all factions. In some cases they have increased the base cost quite a bit, but have also reduced the cost of equipment for those units at the same time, so that the total increase in cost was not as steep.
They seem to have forgotten to reduce the equipment cost for some units in relation to the price hike for the base cost of the unit.
What this means in my opinion is that there will be an FAQ shortly for this whole mess.
Given the flaming dumpster fire that was the indomitus release, people are going to be even more upset about this. Well, unless you play custodes, or harlequins for that matter.
Edit: also be prepared for, in stead of space marines, we are going to be the new faction, which is going to be bombarded with frothing hatred from the community for getting one of the lowest points increase overall.
So it's pretty much Allarus and Bikes, and you can forget the double bike captains, at almost 175 a pop it's not worth it.
I don't understand the point behind the Landraider increase or the Venerable Naught increase. Who is using those? I'll tell you, this looks ugly for Telemons.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So it's pretty much Allarus and Bikes, and you can forget the double bike captains, at almost 175 a pop it's not worth it.
I don't understand the point behind the Landraider increase or the Venerable Naught increase. Who is using those? I'll tell you, this looks ugly for Telemons.
Aquilons actually down a little bit in points I think and are still superior to an Allarus in almost every way in my opinion. So I'd say Terminator/Dreadnought (not the Galatus though, seems he got roughed up a bit). Jetbikes are only up a small amount too so while I don't think they'll be the hot pick they're usable. One shield-captain on jetbike is likely sufficient.
Sag guard are in a good place though. Still competitive with our sword+board loadout. Spears seem the weakest of the three.
FAQs on the Warhammer Community sites for all the factions are up:
Trajanns moment shackle ability got changed. Only the part that used to regenerate d3 command points though: now when you choose to use it the next stratagem you use in this phase costs 0 commant points.
That's a straight buff in my opinion.
Some other minor changes in wording and stuff, but this is the big one in my opinion
Tiberias wrote: FAQs on the Warhammer Community sites for all the factions are up:
Trajanns moment shackle ability got changed. Only the part that used to regenerate d3 command points though: now when you choose to use it the next stratagem you use in this phase costs 0 commant points.
That's a straight buff in my opinion.
Some other minor changes in wording and stuff, but this is the big one in my opinion
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So it's pretty much Allarus and Bikes, and you can forget the double bike captains, at almost 175 a pop it's not worth it.
I don't understand the point behind the Landraider increase or the Venerable Naught increase. Who is using those? I'll tell you, this looks ugly for Telemons.
Aquilons actually down a little bit in points I think and are still superior to an Allarus in almost every way in my opinion. So I'd say Terminator/Dreadnought (not the Galatus though, seems he got roughed up a bit). Jetbikes are only up a small amount too so while I don't think they'll be the hot pick they're usable. One shield-captain on jetbike is likely sufficient.
Sag guard are in a good place though. Still competitive with our sword+board loadout. Spears seem the weakest of the three.
Allarus are mostly considered superior now by the majority of beta testers, due to their ability plop down phase 2, to knock out characters in the shooting phase, and then charge the chaff. Plus S12 punching isn't really that much better than s8 chopping. You aren't meeting the +2 to wound on anything over t6, and if you are using them to punch T5/6 things, you are using them wrong. Their shooting is still sub par. Allarus can wipe HQ's off the map in a single turn. It forces your opponent to change their strategy. Aquillons aren't as scary as people make them out. Without character targeting, they are good for big monster hunting. Which is still done better by Allarus with strats.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So it's pretty much Allarus and Bikes, and you can forget the double bike captains, at almost 175 a pop it's not worth it.
I don't understand the point behind the Landraider increase or the Venerable Naught increase. Who is using those? I'll tell you, this looks ugly for Telemons.
Aquilons actually down a little bit in points I think and are still superior to an Allarus in almost every way in my opinion. So I'd say Terminator/Dreadnought (not the Galatus though, seems he got roughed up a bit). Jetbikes are only up a small amount too so while I don't think they'll be the hot pick they're usable. One shield-captain on jetbike is likely sufficient.
Sag guard are in a good place though. Still competitive with our sword+board loadout. Spears seem the weakest of the three.
Allarus are mostly considered superior now by the majority of beta testers, due to their ability plop down phase 2, to knock out characters in the shooting phase, and then charge the chaff. Plus S12 punching isn't really that much better than s8 chopping. You aren't meeting the +2 to wound on anything over t6, and if you are using them to punch T5/6 things, you are using them wrong. Their shooting is still sub par. Allarus can wipe HQ's off the map in a single turn. It forces your opponent to change their strategy. Aquillons aren't as scary as people make them out. Without character targeting, they are good for big monster hunting. Which is still done better by Allarus with strats.
I honestly don't know who you mean by 'beta testers' but Siegler put his money on Aquilons when he made a list and he is quite good at the game. I haven't seen anyone else with that kind of profile weigh in.
That said, Allarus are actually pretty bad at 'deleting' a character. Let's look at a lowly Space Marine Captain. We won't give him anything but starting gear and we'll give our Allarus the benefit of re-rolling 1's. It's going to take you approximately 9 shots to kill him. 9. So a recommended size 5 squad of Allarus might get him if he's not Primaris, doesn't have a storm shield and/or isn't in cover. Against the commonly occurring daemon prince you're way out of luck. Basically, anything T5 or 2+ armor and you're going to need more than 5 Allarus. This is assuming your opponent doesn't screen you out of rapid fire range either (forcing you to use strat to double shots). 20 shots kill about 3.24 Primaris. 40 shots kill 6.48 of them. You'll decimate a horde too. It's not jaw dropping like a hurricane bolter, but not bad.
Aquilons punch at S10 vs. the S8 of Allarus. That means anything T5 or below is a 2+ without any strat support (and AP-4 to boot). 3+ armor saves don't get armor saves against them while they'd still get a 5+ vs. the Allarus. The Aquilons can use Slayers of Nightmares just as often as the Allarus (as it's unit toughness vs. unit toughness I believe) so with strat support they're 2+'ing anything T9 or less. The Allarus, by contrast are only 2+'ing T4 or less innately and T7 or less with strat support.
Let's look at the standard vehicle profile: T7 and a 3+. We'll give both the Aquilons and the Allarus Slayers of Nightmares. One Aquilon averages 5.55 damage. One Allarus averages 3.7. They're both wounding on a 2+ here, but the difference is striking. When fighting Primaris and Gravis armor the Aquilons will also keep the same consistent performance above.
They're just hands down better save for, like, getting a shot at sniping an old marine captain or astra militarum officer. The argument to be made for Allarus is that they are slightly cheaper. That's a nice little benefit of them. Is it worth the loss in effectiveness? That's a much more grey area up to each player I think.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So it's pretty much Allarus and Bikes, and you can forget the double bike captains, at almost 175 a pop it's not worth it.
I don't understand the point behind the Landraider increase or the Venerable Naught increase. Who is using those? I'll tell you, this looks ugly for Telemons.
Aquilons actually down a little bit in points I think and are still superior to an Allarus in almost every way in my opinion. So I'd say Terminator/Dreadnought (not the Galatus though, seems he got roughed up a bit). Jetbikes are only up a small amount too so while I don't think they'll be the hot pick they're usable. One shield-captain on jetbike is likely sufficient.
Sag guard are in a good place though. Still competitive with our sword+board loadout. Spears seem the weakest of the three.
Allarus are mostly considered superior now by the majority of beta testers, due to their ability plop down phase 2, to knock out characters in the shooting phase, and then charge the chaff. Plus S12 punching isn't really that much better than s8 chopping. You aren't meeting the +2 to wound on anything over t6, and if you are using them to punch T5/6 things, you are using them wrong. Their shooting is still sub par. Allarus can wipe HQ's off the map in a single turn. It forces your opponent to change their strategy. Aquillons aren't as scary as people make them out. Without character targeting, they are good for big monster hunting. Which is still done better by Allarus with strats.
I honestly don't know who you mean by 'beta testers' but Siegler put his money on Aquilons when he made a list and he is quite good at the game. I haven't seen anyone else with that kind of profile weigh in.
That said, Allarus are actually pretty bad at 'deleting' a character. Let's look at a lowly Space Marine Captain. We won't give him anything but starting gear and we'll give our Allarus the benefit of re-rolling 1's. It's going to take you approximately 9 shots to kill him. 9. So a recommended size 5 squad of Allarus might get him if he's not Primaris, doesn't have a storm shield and/or isn't in cover. Against the commonly occurring daemon prince you're way out of luck. Basically, anything T5 or 2+ armor and you're going to need more than 5 Allarus. This is assuming your opponent doesn't screen you out of rapid fire range either (forcing you to use strat to double shots). 20 shots kill about 3.24 Primaris. 40 shots kill 6.48 of them. You'll decimate a horde too. It's not jaw dropping like a hurricane bolter, but not bad.
Aquilons punch at S10 vs. the S8 of Allarus. That means anything T5 or below is a 2+ without any strat support (and AP-4 to boot). 3+ armor saves don't get armor saves against them while they'd still get a 5+ vs. the Allarus. The Aquilons can use Slayers of Nightmares just as often as the Allarus (as it's unit toughness vs. unit toughness I believe) so with strat support they're 2+'ing anything T9 or less. The Allarus, by contrast are only 2+'ing T4 or less innately and T7 or less with strat support.
Let's look at the standard vehicle profile: T7 and a 3+. We'll give both the Aquilons and the Allarus Slayers of Nightmares. One Aquilon averages 5.55 damage. One Allarus averages 3.7. They're both wounding on a 2+ here, but the difference is striking. When fighting Primaris and Gravis armor the Aquilons will also keep the same consistent performance above.
They're just hands down better save for, like, getting a shot at sniping an old marine captain or astra militarum officer. The argument to be made for Allarus is that they are slightly cheaper. That's a nice little benefit of them. Is it worth the loss in effectiveness? That's a much more grey area up to each player I think.
Very Great points. My "beta testers" comment was based off Table Top Titans (Self identified Custodes rep for GW play tester team, Don't know if it's true) and other prominent youtubers who are all major Custodes honks. My point was mainly that Aquillon over Allarus used to be a slam dunk. Now it's a lot closer. And a lot of people think Character targeting inches out the win, also the Heroic intervention shenanigans. They are a lot more mobile than Aquillons.
To the point of the post however, I will concede if you want something dead now, Aquillons are the way to go. But I think Allarus will start to see way more use than they used to, just off their recent buffs. They are now at worst, even in practicality.
I only wished the twin adrathic destructor was a bit cheaper still. 15 points instead of 20 is better, still 5 points too much for me. Or am I being unrealistic here?
Knights came off well from the update as well, you can still fit 4 big knights into a 2k army according to goonhammer. As far as competitive events go Aquilons are now the obvious choice, they hit big things so much harder point for point.
Bike captains were punished the most but only went up 10 percent in total, not bad when you consider some armies went up 20 percent on average! I'll definitely still take one as my first HQ to take advantage of the bike relic. And Telemon is still golden at under 300 points, in fact the twin Accellator cannon variant is really cheap now and excellent for primaris harvesting, I'm gonna try that as my go to.
I still think if you want terminators, storm bolter/fist aquilons are the way to go here.
Now here is an interesting thing. Considering that the Hurricane Bolter Bikes, and Missile Bikes cost the same number of points now, is it worth running a mix of the two considering
A. the new strat to help (archeotech munitions)
B. Gaining the blast quality, and
C. No longer getting worse to hit than a -1 on anything since the salvo launcher is heavy??
iGuy91 wrote: I still think if you want terminators, storm bolter/fist aquilons are the way to go here.
Now here is an interesting thing. Considering that the Hurricane Bolter Bikes, and Missile Bikes cost the same number of points now, is it worth running a mix of the two considering
A. the new strat to help (archeotech munitions)
B. Gaining the blast quality, and
C. No longer getting worse to hit than a -1 on anything since the salvo launcher is heavy??
Remember, salvo launcher no longer got the negative from moving.
Someone on Facebook pointed out that Trajan’s Moment Shackle doesn’t specify “Custodes Strategems” so if you’ve always wanted try a 4CP allied inquisition orbital bombardment, you can now do so for free.
iGuy91 wrote: I still think if you want terminators, storm bolter/fist aquilons are the way to go here.
Now here is an interesting thing. Considering that the Hurricane Bolter Bikes, and Missile Bikes cost the same number of points now, is it worth running a mix of the two considering
A. the new strat to help (archeotech munitions)
B. Gaining the blast quality, and
C. No longer getting worse to hit than a -1 on anything since the salvo launcher is heavy??
iGuy91 wrote: I still think if you want terminators, storm bolter/fist aquilons are the way to go here.
Now here is an interesting thing. Considering that the Hurricane Bolter Bikes, and Missile Bikes cost the same number of points now, is it worth running a mix of the two considering
A. the new strat to help (archeotech munitions)
B. Gaining the blast quality, and
C. No longer getting worse to hit than a -1 on anything since the salvo launcher is heavy??
you no longer even get the -1.
I think they may be worth bringing some now yes.
Innnnteresting. That will take some getting used to. Still, able to hit something like a flyer on 3s is really solid. What do folks think the best mix would be? 4 Bolters, 2 Launchers? 3 and 3?
so whats the opinion on the best loadout for the telemon now? twin storm still? or does the cheapness of the culverins make them any better. I do own two magnetised fists, might be fun to give that a whirl
McMagnus Mindbullets wrote: so whats the opinion on the best loadout for the telemon now? twin storm still? or does the cheapness of the culverins make them any better. I do own two magnetised fists, might be fun to give that a whirl
I will take my Telemon with fist and storm cannon. And i plan on walking him up to the middel of the board.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So it's pretty much Allarus and Bikes, and you can forget the double bike captains, at almost 175 a pop it's not worth it.
I don't understand the point behind the Landraider increase or the Venerable Naught increase. Who is using those? I'll tell you, this looks ugly for Telemons.
Aquilons actually down a little bit in points I think and are still superior to an Allarus in almost every way in my opinion. So I'd say Terminator/Dreadnought (not the Galatus though, seems he got roughed up a bit). Jetbikes are only up a small amount too so while I don't think they'll be the hot pick they're usable. One shield-captain on jetbike is likely sufficient.
Sag guard are in a good place though. Still competitive with our sword+board loadout. Spears seem the weakest of the three.
Allarus are mostly considered superior now by the majority of beta testers, due to their ability plop down phase 2, to knock out characters in the shooting phase, and then charge the chaff. Plus S12 punching isn't really that much better than s8 chopping. You aren't meeting the +2 to wound on anything over t6, and if you are using them to punch T5/6 things, you are using them wrong. Their shooting is still sub par. Allarus can wipe HQ's off the map in a single turn. It forces your opponent to change their strategy. Aquillons aren't as scary as people make them out. Without character targeting, they are good for big monster hunting. Which is still done better by Allarus with strats.
I honestly don't know who you mean by 'beta testers' but Siegler put his money on Aquilons when he made a list and he is quite good at the game. I haven't seen anyone else with that kind of profile weigh in.
That said, Allarus are actually pretty bad at 'deleting' a character. Let's look at a lowly Space Marine Captain. We won't give him anything but starting gear and we'll give our Allarus the benefit of re-rolling 1's. It's going to take you approximately 9 shots to kill him. 9. So a recommended size 5 squad of Allarus might get him if he's not Primaris, doesn't have a storm shield and/or isn't in cover. Against the commonly occurring daemon prince you're way out of luck. Basically, anything T5 or 2+ armor and you're going to need more than 5 Allarus. This is assuming your opponent doesn't screen you out of rapid fire range either (forcing you to use strat to double shots). 20 shots kill about 3.24 Primaris. 40 shots kill 6.48 of them. You'll decimate a horde too. It's not jaw dropping like a hurricane bolter, but not bad.
Aquilons punch at S10 vs. the S8 of Allarus. That means anything T5 or below is a 2+ without any strat support (and AP-4 to boot). 3+ armor saves don't get armor saves against them while they'd still get a 5+ vs. the Allarus. The Aquilons can use Slayers of Nightmares just as often as the Allarus (as it's unit toughness vs. unit toughness I believe) so with strat support they're 2+'ing anything T9 or less. The Allarus, by contrast are only 2+'ing T4 or less innately and T7 or less with strat support.
Let's look at the standard vehicle profile: T7 and a 3+. We'll give both the Aquilons and the Allarus Slayers of Nightmares. One Aquilon averages 5.55 damage. One Allarus averages 3.7. They're both wounding on a 2+ here, but the difference is striking. When fighting Primaris and Gravis armor the Aquilons will also keep the same consistent performance above.
They're just hands down better save for, like, getting a shot at sniping an old marine captain or astra militarum officer. The argument to be made for Allarus is that they are slightly cheaper. That's a nice little benefit of them. Is it worth the loss in effectiveness? That's a much more grey area up to each player I think.
Very Great points. My "beta testers" comment was based off Table Top Titans (Self identified Custodes rep for GW play tester team, Don't know if it's true) and other prominent youtubers who are all major Custodes honks. My point was mainly that Aquillon over Allarus used to be a slam dunk. Now it's a lot closer. And a lot of people think Character targeting inches out the win, also the Heroic intervention shenanigans. They are a lot more mobile than Aquillons.
To the point of the post however, I will concede if you want something dead now, Aquillons are the way to go. But I think Allarus will start to see way more use than they used to, just off their recent buffs. They are now at worst, even in practicality.
Good points!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Darkseid wrote: I only wished the twin adrathic destructor was a bit cheaper still. 15 points instead of 20 is better, still 5 points too much for me. Or am I being unrealistic here?
I kind of feel like 15 is O.K., but we'll have to try and see. They're nice for Primaris hunting if you don't want to use the strat to shoot the bolters twice.
iGuy91 wrote: I still think if you want terminators, storm bolter/fist aquilons are the way to go here.
Now here is an interesting thing. Considering that the Hurricane Bolter Bikes, and Missile Bikes cost the same number of points now, is it worth running a mix of the two considering
A. the new strat to help (archeotech munitions)
B. Gaining the blast quality, and
C. No longer getting worse to hit than a -1 on anything since the salvo launcher is heavy??
you no longer even get the -1.
I think they may be worth bringing some now yes.
Innnnteresting. That will take some getting used to. Still, able to hit something like a flyer on 3s is really solid. What do folks think the best mix would be? 4 Bolters, 2 Launchers? 3 and 3?
I think you do one or the other and it's based on what else you brought. If you've got lastrum storm bolters or Arachnus Stormcannons (multiple) then go with the missiles. You have enough horde clearing power and hordes are supposed to be less common now anyway.
McMagnus Mindbullets wrote: so whats the opinion on the best loadout for the telemon now? twin storm still? or does the cheapness of the culverins make them any better. I do own two magnetised fists, might be fun to give that a whirl
I will take my Telemon with fist and storm cannon. And i plan on walking him up to the middel of the board.
That's the spirit! I think if you're bringing one Telemon, this is the go-to loadout. Especially if you just have one terminator/warden squad. That said, if you are bringing multiple Telemons or lots of terminators/wardens, loading some or all of them up with guns seems advisable.
The Telemon is going to the middel of the board or somewhere near it in cover.Tanks in the back field with Trajann Allarus and Termin cap. are going to deep strike and use Golden light of the Moiraides. I will try to DS within 12" of an enemy character so i can shoot it and then charge in with 78% chance (including CP reroll) of making it.
I am pretty sure hordes are dead with all the nerfs to them. And i think we will see a LOT of vehicles thats why i focus on anti tank shooting.
McMagnus Mindbullets wrote: so whats the opinion on the best loadout for the telemon now? twin storm still? or does the cheapness of the culverins make them any better. I do own two magnetised fists, might be fun to give that a whirl
Having watched a number of games with the Telemon in fist and gun config, double storm. You don’t get to use the fist enough and the cannons provide a good, consistent, and, most importantly, and extremely hard to removed ranged threat in an army that only has a handful of those.
McMagnus Mindbullets wrote: so whats the opinion on the best loadout for the telemon now? twin storm still? or does the cheapness of the culverins make them any better. I do own two magnetised fists, might be fun to give that a whirl
Having watched a number of games with the Telemon in fist and gun config, double storm. You don’t get to use the fist enough and the cannons provide a good, consistent, and, most importantly, and extremely hard to removed ranged threat in an army that only has a handful of those.
Agreed, a Telemon trying to get into melee is just another thing which will be screened out by your enemy. Rather have your infantry carving their way through to capture objectives while Telemons knock out the enemy guns and sit on the backfield objectives.
The Telemon is going to the middel of the board or somewhere near it in cover.Tanks in the back field with Trajann Allarus and Termin cap. are going to deep strike and use Golden light of the Moiraides. I will try to DS within 12" of an enemy character so i can shoot it and then charge in with 78% chance (including CP reroll) of making it.
I am pretty sure hordes are dead with all the nerfs to them. And i think we will see a LOT of vehicles thats why i focus on anti tank shooting.
any thoughts?
Seems exceptionally killy, but I think it's really going to struggle to hold any objectives/play the mission, especially when you only really have a single telemon to hold any ground in the centre. And if you end up with a mission where you have to carry out 'actions' then you'd be in a lot of trouble- sacrificing any shooting here would be a deathwish.
Although, maybe if you can exterminate their army (which will be made easier if it is hinged around a few units/characters) you'll be able to spread out and mop up points after.
McMagnus Mindbullets wrote: so whats the opinion on the best loadout for the telemon now? twin storm still? or does the cheapness of the culverins make them any better. I do own two magnetised fists, might be fun to give that a whirl
Having watched a number of games with the Telemon in fist and gun config, double storm. You don’t get to use the fist enough and the cannons provide a good, consistent, and, most importantly, and extremely hard to removed ranged threat in an army that only has a handful of those.
Agreed, a Telemon trying to get into melee is just another thing which will be screened out by your enemy. Rather have your infantry carving their way through to capture objectives while Telemons knock out the enemy guns and sit on the backfield objectives.
Might as well give both a go really. If taken with double guns it is much more sensible to sit backfield, so I might try gun/fist if I need to hold middle ground in some games.
I need to try a deepstriking dual fist though, even if it sucks
The Telemon is going to the middel of the board or somewhere near it in cover.Tanks in the back field with Trajann Allarus and Termin cap. are going to deep strike and use Golden light of the Moiraides. I will try to DS within 12" of an enemy character so i can shoot it and then charge in with 78% chance (including CP reroll) of making it.
I am pretty sure hordes are dead with all the nerfs to them. And i think we will see a LOT of vehicles thats why i focus on anti tank shooting.
any thoughts?
Seems exceptionally killy, but I think it's really going to struggle to hold any objectives/play the mission, especially when you only really have a single telemon to hold any ground in the centre. And if you end up with a mission where you have to carry out 'actions' then you'd be in a lot of trouble- sacrificing any shooting here would be a deathwish.
Although, maybe if you can exterminate their army (which will be made easier if it is hinged around a few units/characters) you'll be able to spread out and mop up points after.
Yes the whole "action" thing could be a problem. But first we have to see the GT mission pack. I am curious how it all works if you need infantry and the the "action" is mendetory how will pure knights list handle that?
I am also thinking about taking a patrol(instead of the spearhead) with a small guardian unit with shields that would give me 3 more CP and good objective holders
wannabmoy wrote: If anyone's interested, we got our first 9th edition bat rep in with Custodes vs Orks. Below is the list I played.
<Snip>
I would drop the 6th termi. 6 feels like a really bad number this edition. Your enabling Blast and more difficult Coherency for minimal upside.
6 is fine for allarus termies. Indeed you can push it to 8 or even 10 for CP efficiency. The unit and base size isn't that unwieldy. Aquillons, with their massive bases, might be a bit more awkward at 6.
Custodes terminaters are not dying to 3 shots of any blast weapon in the game.
So being new to Custodes (I only got my models a couple of weeks ago) I was pleasantly surprised with the light touch they got with the points changes.
I've put together a rough list to start with and would appreciate some feedback.
One caveat, I got into custodes as they are a small force and that they are cheap to purchase, please don't suggest I go out and buy forgeworld versions of everything. I know they are likely better on the table but I like the cheapness of the plastic (as does my wife) I may get a centrepiece dread from FW in the future (have my eye on the Achillus) but for now I'm sticking to the GW plastic line.
The sisters are in there as I own them and what I had brought came in as less points than expected.
I've magnetised the Allarus so I can use one as a SC or Vexilla, I can also swap out the weapons on some of them.
I've assumbled the Guard looking to the future of better stormshields.
My base idea is for TV and the vexilla to move to the centre of the board and claim an objective with the larger guard squad. The Bikes take a flank and shoot up some tanks whilst the SC on bike goes for the throat as I'll power him up with pregame stuff to make him unpleasant to kill. The Allarus come in turn two and target a characters then go for a charge (I'll be going dreadhost for the 3D6). The other Guard units move for objectives whilst the sisters sit back or push forward depending on what psykers my opponents have.
I might be wrong on this, but what are your opinions about custodes after the point changes and meta chasers? It seems to me that, with the golden boys shaping up to be the new hotness in 9th, there are quite a lot of people jumping on the golden bandwagon.
That's not necessarily a bad thing, though it might be harder to get some FW stuff if suddenly everyone wants a telemon or two.
Tiberias wrote: I might be wrong on this, but what are your opinions about custodes after the point changes and meta chasers? It seems to me that, with the golden boys shaping up to be the new hotness in 9th, there are quite a lot of people jumping on the golden bandwagon.
That's not necessarily a bad thing, though it might be harder to get some FW stuff if suddenly everyone wants a telemon or two.
Harder to get a telemon? Man the allarus have been sold out on the webstore for like a week .
Custodes are, I'd say, a top 3 faction. I think there's a few that still play really well into us (Grey knights actually comes to mind.), as custodes don't have a huge amount of depth in the model line. But custodes play fantastically to the objectives of the new edition tween the extra toughness we gained from strategems and more CP and full obsec. It will be extremely difficult to hold an objective against a custodes assault, especially with any obec units. And once on an objective, it takes real, concerted effort to push custodes off of one. Indeed, terminators are almost immune to being destroyed for about 2 turns until you've burned out of CP, and you can score, easily, 30 points on the primary, in those two turns.
Tiberias wrote: It seems to me that, with the golden boys shaping up to be the new hotness in 9th, there are quite a lot of people jumping on the golden bandwagon
Tbh that happens with everything- competitive board games, card games, sports teams, cellphone brands etc.
though it might be harder to get some FW stuff if suddenly everyone wants a telemon or two.
There are other better options for getting Telemons beside buying from Forge World if you get what I mean
Written a list that I'm going to give a spin against some CSM using the new rules tomorrow. results might be a little skewed because of lack of good terrain/board size (table is too thin- like 34x60- and will be using some very makeshift terrain
Decided to go with the shadowkeepers because 1) that's how my army is painted, and 2) I feel like the dread host strat won't be all so exceptionally useful as I'm using the vexilla homer(5CP for 2 charges is a little much tbh). only got 3 S&B guys because thats what was good last edition lol. Already did a vexilla swap to get an extra termie. Got two tooled up shield captains because why the hell not, so will start with 7CP (6 if bikes get deep struck, which is the intention)
That said:
Shadowkeepers patrol detachment
Bike captain w/salvo + mis 178
-warlord: lockwarden
-relic:auric aquilis
-captain commander: unstoppable destroyer
VotBG
Bike captain w/salvo + mis 178
-ten thousand heroes: superior creation
-open the vault: eagles eye
3 man guard squad, 2 S&B 158
3 man guard squad, 1 S&B 154
Vexilla with storm shield + mis 128
-vexilla imperius
6 allarus with axes
Telemon with fist and storm cannon 2̶6̶0̶ 295
5 vertus praetors, all hurricane+4mis. probably FGLTC in this game. will depend though. 475
1999
Very obvious idea here. A backfield guard squad to run around objectives, a bigger one to do the same/ push midboard. the captains will either stick with them t1, or try and hide/ hop on objectives.
Then the fun. big boy telemon pushing midboard with vexilla behind him. If hes about to come under heavy fire, pop half dmg/no rerolls and theres no point even shooting him anymore. then vexilla advances up front and down come 6 allarus and five bikes in your face t2 to destroyy some stuff.
After that one will see what happens. Before playing with it it seems pretty darn good, which I'm very happy about for my kinda limited collection.
One change I considered was dropping to a 5man guard squad for a 6th bike, but I like the utility of a couple units and it felt unnecessary to bulk out that unit any further
Please critique and give me ideas, this is of course my first list with the new pts. no major changes here, but I love the freedom of no 3x3 tax.
Custodes still have to contend with the ever growing might of the new Primaris forces, who get about a new release a month it seems. Custodes are still easily countered by the same things as before, mass high value shooting (Primaris) and Mass mortal wounds (GK/Chaos) I expect we will never see the IH levels of crazyness, where every tournament is 75% of some IH Variant. We may see a slight shine before GW steps in and says ok, We need to sell more eliminators/flavor of the month. Point being, my local game store still has a fully stocked Custodes section. The worst possible thing that could happen to our faction is for it to become the new "best in show".
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Custodes still have to contend with the ever growing might of the new Primaris forces, who get about a new release a month it seems. Custodes are still easily countered by the same things as before, mass high value shooting (Primaris) and Mass mortal wounds (GK/Chaos) I expect we will never see the IH levels of crazyness, where every tournament is 75% of some IH Variant. We may see a slight shine before GW steps in and says ok, We need to sell more eliminators/flavor of the month. Point being, my local game store still has a fully stocked Custodes section. The worst possible thing that could happen to our faction is for it to become the new "best in show".
Custodes are vastly less vulnerable to mass shooting now.
Telemon with fist and storm cannon 260 (260!!! fists sure went wayyy down)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that Telemon is 295 points
200 base, Arachnus Storm Cannon 40, 1 Fist 30, Plasma Projector 15, Spiculus 10
I wouldn't have been surprised at this at all.
From a check back to the spreadsheet posted a couple pages back, it seems I'm not wrong
Telemon 200 base, arachnus 40, spiculus 10, caestus is 10 for single, plasma is 0. 260.
It'd make sense to me if this is an error, feels wrong to have a telemon that low points. We will see when CA is fully released.
Edit: Just realised that it is 0 for a pair of fists. 0!!! And twin plasma projectors are also 0. That means we can (supposedly) run a full telemon dreadnought for 210 points. That's pretty crazy to me.
I wonder how two double fist, CP upgraded dreads deep striking would fare..... Enticing.
Telemon with fist and storm cannon 260 (260!!! fists sure went wayyy down)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that Telemon is 295 points
200 base, Arachnus Storm Cannon 40, 1 Fist 30, Plasma Projector 15, Spiculus 10
This is correct.
I wouldn't have been surprised at this at all.
From a check back to the spreadsheet posted a couple pages back, it seems I'm not wrong
Telemon 200 base, arachnus 40, spiculus 10, caestus is 10 for single, plasma is 0. 260.
It'd make sense to me if this is an error, feels wrong to have a telemon that low points. We will see when CA is fully released.
Edit: Just realised that it is 0 for a pair of fists. 0!!! And twin plasma projectors are also 0. That means we can (supposedly) run a full telemon dreadnought for 210 points. That's pretty crazy to me.
I wonder how two double fist, CP upgraded dreads deep striking would fare..... Enticing.
The "changes" section showed the difference in points from old to new. I renamed it to "difference" to make it more clear.
The fist went from 20p for 1 to 30p for 1 and from 30 for 2 to 40 for 2. The plasma projector was never free.
Sorry i had an error in the spread sheet. I uploaded a new version.
Ah. Yes, I see, that is me being very stupid. oops. I will edit my list accordingly.
So while I was 30 points or so over, the game went very well (around 80-20).
A couple things of note that I found: the teleport homer is fantastic as always, coming down so close to their lines is just filthy.
The telemon is far less tanky than I first thought, even with the stratagem to half dmg, getting wiped t1 . however I did deliberately position it so it would be the only feasible thing to shoot at from a full CSM list.
Axes are still great. Allarus in general are very very nice. however a squad of 6 means they have to pretty much be in base contact with each other when they come down due to new coherency, which restricts things a little bit.
Choosing the right secondaries is very very important. I chose better than my opponent, who scored very few pts from his.
Finally, it somewhat feels like our game is won in the movement phase- very careful positioning to maximise objective grabbing and area denial is so much more important than killing loads of models.
edit(s)-getting quoted text wrong haha
Played my first game with custodes today vs a shooty ork list.
My take aways after one game: dawn these boys are tough! Didn't lose any full squads, between defensive straps, vexilla and good amounts of terrain I was aways able to put my units in a position to survive and hold.
Firepower wise I need more ranged anti vehicle, three salvo launchers was not enough (to the surprise of noone). Thinking a dread will be joining the list.
The bikes and bike captain were great, would like an additional one to get them up to 4. There movement and firepower were key.
Allurus were total boss, just an anvil the the opponent broke himself against.
Really please.so far but it was a good match up that played to my strengths. Admech next week...
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Custodes still have to contend with the ever growing might of the new Primaris forces, who get about a new release a month it seems. Custodes are still easily countered by the same things as before, mass high value shooting (Primaris) and Mass mortal wounds (GK/Chaos) I expect we will never see the IH levels of crazyness, where every tournament is 75% of some IH Variant. We may see a slight shine before GW steps in and says ok, We need to sell more eliminators/flavor of the month. Point being, my local game store still has a fully stocked Custodes section. The worst possible thing that could happen to our faction is for it to become the new "best in show".
In what may be another sign of the Apocalypse, I kind of agree with Fezzik. I think a lot of the threats that menaced Custodes before are still there and while I agree with the play tester reviews and positive feedback I wouldn’t be surprised if we weren’t quite as good as everyone says.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Custodes still have to contend with the ever growing might of the new Primaris forces, who get about a new release a month it seems. Custodes are still easily countered by the same things as before, mass high value shooting (Primaris) and Mass mortal wounds (GK/Chaos) I expect we will never see the IH levels of crazyness, where every tournament is 75% of some IH Variant. We may see a slight shine before GW steps in and says ok, We need to sell more eliminators/flavor of the month. Point being, my local game store still has a fully stocked Custodes section. The worst possible thing that could happen to our faction is for it to become the new "best in show".
In what may be another sign of the Apocalypse, I kind of agree with Fezzik. I think a lot of the threats that menaced Custodes before are still there and while I agree with the play tester reviews and positive feedback I wouldn’t be surprised if we weren’t quite as good as everyone says.
Which is a good thing on my opinion. I don't want our boys to be too dominant in 9th. For if we were, we would be the target of the pitchfork wielding mob that hates primaris right now (which would be annoying enough) and we'd probably be hit by an early FAQ that would take us down a notch.
Though I still believe that our greatly improved toughness through new strats and more CP will make us one of the top 5 factions in 9th until new codices are released.
If say, dark Eldar get the first codex release in 9th, their new rules could make them utterly dominant, until the next faction gets their 9th Ed codex an is going to be the new hotness.
So enjoy our spot in the limelight, for it will probably be brief enough.
Oh and everybody seems to forget that the updated forgeworld indexes are still to be released. These updated could provide us with an additional small powerspike, or even be a small nerf, based on the nature of the changes.
The telemon for example has found his way in to most new lists in 9th, because he can act as an incredibly tough anvil for the opponent to break himself against. Now if they were to nerf his weapons or rules in the new FW indexes, this would also hit us quite a bit, wouldn't be the end of the world by any stretch, but it would still sting.
Have people been finding the Dread Host to be effective outside of Terminator-focused lists?
I'm really liking Solar Watch a lot more than I thought I would, currently running:
Spoiler:
Solar Watch Battalion:
Shield Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike w/ Salvo Launcher & Misericordia - Superior Creation & Auric Aquilas
Shield Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike w/ Salvo Launcher & Misericordia
Shield Captain with Guardian Spear - Warlord with Sally Forth, Swiftsilver Talon Relic, and Captain Commander w/ 5+ CP regen (sometimes the 3" auras)
- He rolls with the Sag Guard and generates value
3x3 Sagittarum Guard w/ Misericordias (I've swapped some out for Custodian Guard in the past, but they still don't feel great. That will probably change if we get the new Storm Shield rules).
6 Venatari w/ Pistols and Bucklers
6 Vertus Praetors with Hurricane Bolters & Misericordias
Vexilus Praetor with Magnifica and Misericordia - I've been toying with the +1 attack aura and deepstriking it, but it's difficult to pull off and feels like it needs a critical mass of melee that my list simply doesn't have.
- Slayer of Nightmares makes the bikes (and Venatari) into potent anti-tank once they get into melee.
- An Inquisitor might be a better include than the Vexilus. Alternatively, 2 Prosecutor squads to sit on points and perform actions, but that price increase did not help.
- Custodes with 7+" movement feel very good. I'm finding that it's quite possible to both grab objectives more effectively and bully some factions (especially Knights) off of theirs.
- 7/12 CP available (2 for an additional WL trait & Relic, 1 for Captain-Commander, and 2 for VotBG) at the start of the game also feels incredible, especially with being able to get more on with the 5+ or by killing characters.
People will start getting wise to the Teleport homer + terminator bomb tactic. It's pretty easy to predict where the vexilla is going and just drop a cheap screen in front of him which stumps him for next turn, I've seen it happen already. I wonder if we might see a resurgence of Dread Host as a result once the meta has established. It's nice to have the strat in your back pocket so that your opponent is forced to cover all sides again with his screens, not just where your vexilla is.
Spartacus wrote: People will start getting wise to the Teleport homer + terminator bomb tactic. It's pretty easy to predict where the vexilla is going and just drop a cheap screen in front of him which stumps him for next turn, I've seen it happen already. I wonder if we might see a resurgence of Dread Host as a result once the meta has established. It's nice to have the strat in your back pocket so that your opponent is forced to cover all sides again with his screens, not just where your vexilla is.
You say it like it wasn't a thing in 8th edition. People are "wise" to it for a long time, yet it's still the most reliant deepstrike option for Custodes. If you feel lucky, Dread Host might work out. But I think DH is a trap. If you want a reliable deepstrike, you still need the vexilla, especially now with the smaller board, when it's easier to screen out regular 9" ds. I think it'll be the other way around. After the initial hype for DH, people will abandon it for the other shield hosts, after getting burned by the "3d6" charge.
Spartacus wrote: People will start getting wise to the Teleport homer + terminator bomb tactic. It's pretty easy to predict where the vexilla is going and just drop a cheap screen in front of him which stumps him for next turn, I've seen it happen already. I wonder if we might see a resurgence of Dread Host as a result once the meta has established. It's nice to have the strat in your back pocket so that your opponent is forced to cover all sides again with his screens, not just where your vexilla is.
You say it like it wasn't a thing in 8th edition. People are "wise" to it for a long time, yet it's still the most reliant deepstrike option for Custodes. If you feel lucky, Dread Host might work out. But I think DH is a trap. If you want a reliable deepstrike, you still need the vexilla, especially now with the smaller board, when it's easier to screen out regular 9" ds. I think it'll be the other way around. After the initial hype for DH, people will abandon it for the other shield hosts, after getting burned by the "3d6" charge.
The odds of failing all three charges are very small I think. Even without re-rolls each charge has something like a 52% chance of success, individually. With a CP re-roll on one, you've got consistent odds I think.
I believe the trap may be in trying to use it to get one unit in. That's when it could let you down. You need three units that are all worth getting into melee.
Basically, Dread host is telling your opponent that your entire hope of victory is tied to one unit. There is no subtlety either. This is my lynch pin, and I am hoping you can't take it down by turn 3. The others are much more adept at keeping your opponent guessing and on the back foot.
Spartacus wrote: People will start getting wise to the Teleport homer + terminator bomb tactic. It's pretty easy to predict where the vexilla is going and just drop a cheap screen in front of him which stumps him for next turn, I've seen it happen already. I wonder if we might see a resurgence of Dread Host as a result once the meta has established. It's nice to have the strat in your back pocket so that your opponent is forced to cover all sides again with his screens, not just where your vexilla is.
You say it like it wasn't a thing in 8th edition. People are "wise" to it for a long time, yet it's still the most reliant deepstrike option for Custodes. If you feel lucky, Dread Host might work out. But I think DH is a trap. If you want a reliable deepstrike, you still need the vexilla, especially now with the smaller board, when it's easier to screen out regular 9" ds. I think it'll be the other way around. After the initial hype for DH, people will abandon it for the other shield hosts, after getting burned by the "3d6" charge.
The odds of failing all three charges are very small I think. Even without re-rolls each charge has something like a 52% chance of success, individually. With a CP re-roll on one, you've got consistent odds I think.
I believe the trap may be in trying to use it to get one unit in. That's when it could let you down. You need three units that are all worth getting into melee.
With the re-roll, your chance is around 75% with DH. So on average, even the re-rolled charges you fail every 4th charge. If you are fine with these odds, when as a custodes you have so few units in the game and every failed charge tends to be a big problem, then go for it. Without re-roll, you have, as you say, around 50/50 chance to get it. I hope you don't fail your most important charge then...
I think we all wanted more reliable charges from PA and that's why we got all excited about DH. But it's a trick. I don't trust the odds after trying it in my last game of 8th a month ago. Even Emissaries I think might see more play at the tournaments than DH I believe.
I think the bigger issue with Dread Host will be the return of screens...people stopped screening after GSC got nerfed to death but as soon as strategic reserves start coming in speed bumps will make a comeback. Custodes do have some great chaff-clearers, but is still going to have trouble dealing with say an out-of-LOS scout squad. With multi-charges being effectively dead the initial deepstrike will not be as deadly either. I actually think that deepstriking bikes may be more valuable because with the vexilla they can get close but also jump over a screen on their charge.
I was initially psyched for dread host but I think I’m now on team Shadowkeepers.
Dread Host Eternal Penitent LoTM Dual Fist Telemon, roll 3d6, take 2 highest, rerolling all 3 for free is pretty darn reliable. The Captain Commander trait to add +1 to charge plus LoTM, pretty reliable.
That, and with two fists, 6 attacks from the dreadnoughts hitting and wounding on 2s is just gonna ruin something's day
greyknight12 wrote: I think the bigger issue with Dread Host will be the return of screens...people stopped screening after GSC got nerfed to death but as soon as strategic reserves start coming in speed bumps will make a comeback. Custodes do have some great chaff-clearers, but is still going to have trouble dealing with say an out-of-LOS scout squad. With multi-charges being effectively dead the initial deepstrike will not be as deadly either. I actually think that deepstriking bikes may be more valuable because with the vexilla they can get close but also jump over a screen on their charge.
I was initially psyched for dread host but I think I’m now on team Shadowkeepers.
Spartacus wrote: People will start getting wise to the Teleport homer + terminator bomb tactic. It's pretty easy to predict where the vexilla is going and just drop a cheap screen in front of him which stumps him for next turn, I've seen it happen already. I wonder if we might see a resurgence of Dread Host as a result once the meta has established. It's nice to have the strat in your back pocket so that your opponent is forced to cover all sides again with his screens, not just where your vexilla is.
You say it like it wasn't a thing in 8th edition. People are "wise" to it for a long time, yet it's still the most reliant deepstrike option for Custodes. If you feel lucky, Dread Host might work out. But I think DH is a trap. If you want a reliable deepstrike, you still need the vexilla, especially now with the smaller board, when it's easier to screen out regular 9" ds. I think it'll be the other way around. After the initial hype for DH, people will abandon it for the other shield hosts, after getting burned by the "3d6" charge.
The odds of failing all three charges are very small I think. Even without re-rolls each charge has something like a 52% chance of success, individually. With a CP re-roll on one, you've got consistent odds I think.
I believe the trap may be in trying to use it to get one unit in. That's when it could let you down. You need three units that are all worth getting into melee.
With the re-roll, your chance is around 75% with DH. So on average, even the re-rolled charges you fail every 4th charge. If you are fine with these odds, when as a custodes you have so few units in the game and every failed charge tends to be a big problem, then go for it. Without re-roll, you have, as you say, around 50/50 chance to get it. I hope you don't fail your most important charge then...
I think we all wanted more reliable charges from PA and that's why we got all excited about DH. But it's a trick. I don't trust the odds after trying it in my last game of 8th a month ago. Even Emissaries I think might see more play at the tournaments than DH I believe.
I think there's two issues in these logics.
For greyknight: I don't think the goal every game should be to charge and smash some big, juicy armored target. That's nice, but you're right that screens can be a problem.
For Balerion: The issue seems to be you're putting everything in one basket or some type of huge beta strike.
Dread Host lets you do 3D6, drop the lowest, on 3 units. The goal here should be to take a backfield objective. Preferably 2 of them. You're not striking in a death star and trying to smash your opponent's army with it: you're trying to claim out of reach positions and then hold them with a very dangerous and very durable force.
One of the ideal setups I keep coming back to looks like:
The dreadnought should go for a completely different objective than the terminator squad and Shield-Captain. Scoring is fast in the new edition and it is hard to recover points if you fall behind. Reserves aren't looking to be highly favored because you're looking at losing so much potential scoring time with your units not on an objective. If you can land T2 and flip two objectives, that's going to be huge. Even flipping just one will be solid for you. So the terminators come down, shoot at something that isn't whatever chaff they need to charge to reach an objective, dreadnought does the same for a different objective and then you charge that chaff. The chaff is the target.
Your opponent now has to decide if they want to completely surrender the center of the board to bring the strength of their force back to their own deployment zone to get that stuff back or if they want to surrender their deployment zone. This tactic also makes it very easy to max out something like Linebreaker.
I'm not saying Dread Host is hands down the best, but it's definitely one of our top hosts.
@Audustum I think you have it right on how you want to use the deepstrike; however I think that smaller board sizes are going to inhibit a lot of deep-field objective grabs. For example, in the “only war” mission released with the core rules, each deployment zone is 18”x44” which means that 2 units can zone out the entire deployment zone from deep strikers.
greyknight12 wrote: @Audustum I think you have it right on how you want to use the deepstrike; however I think that smaller board sizes are going to inhibit a lot of deep-field objective grabs. For example, in the “only war” mission released with the core rules, each deployment zone is 18”x44” which means that 2 units can zone out the entire deployment zone from deep strikers.
I'll admit, I've largely just ignored that one because the GT missions leaked. That said, you may need to deep strike off-position and charge. As long as you can keep it to a 9 roll it doesn't really matter where you start.
One thing that's popped in my head today too is that verticality will be more relevant than before. Ruins are both scaleable and breachable. That means we can land on top of them and keep our distance and charge measurements the same (unlike, say, a hill, where you'd measure straight diagonal for the 9" deep strike restriction but then have to measure every part of the hill for moving up and down).
iGuy91 wrote: Dread Host Eternal Penitent LoTM Dual Fist Telemon, roll 3d6, take 2 highest, rerolling all 3 for free is pretty darn reliable. The Captain Commander trait to add +1 to charge plus LoTM, pretty reliable.
That, and with two fists, 6 attacks from the dreadnoughts hitting and wounding on 2s is just gonna ruin something's day
Yeah, tried that. My double fist telemon, that was going to ruin someone's day, ended being stuck in no man's land, getting bracketed to 3rd row in subsequent turn. The only day he ruined, was mine.
EDIT: and why would you pick that commander trait anyway, when there's unstoppable destroyer, or cp refund trait? If you are going for 'in your face' SC, it's going to be most likely on bike, right? At least in my case for sure. Then you shouldn't have too much trouble getting a bike cap into a close range for reliable charge anyway, at which point unstoppable destroyer is soooo tasty!
For Balerion: The issue seems to be you're putting everything in one basket or some type of huge beta strike.
Dread Host lets you do 3D6, drop the lowest, on 3 units. The goal here should be to take a backfield objective. Preferably 2 of them. You're not striking in a death star and trying to smash your opponent's army with it: you're trying to claim out of reach positions and then hold them with a very dangerous and very durable force.
One of the ideal setups I keep coming back to looks like:
The dreadnought should go for a completely different objective than the terminator squad and Shield-Captain. Scoring is fast in the new edition and it is hard to recover points if you fall behind. Reserves aren't looking to be highly favored because you're looking at losing so much potential scoring time with your units not on an objective. If you can land T2 and flip two objectives, that's going to be huge. Even flipping just one will be solid for you. So the terminators come down, shoot at something that isn't whatever chaff they need to charge to reach an objective, dreadnought does the same for a different objective and then you charge that chaff. The chaff is the target.
Your opponent now has to decide if they want to completely surrender the center of the board to bring the strength of their force back to their own deployment zone to get that stuff back or if they want to surrender their deployment zone. This tactic also makes it very easy to max out something like Linebreaker.
I'm not saying Dread Host is hands down the best, but it's definitely one of our top hosts.
Again, in theory, it sounds great. And if it works for you, then that's amazing. Because one thing you want with your deepstriking custodes, is to get them to their target immediately.
I tried it on a combination of double fist Telemon, SC with the relic axe and allarus vexila with +1 attack banner (allarus squad was held back to come a turn later, to keep them as a counter for Scarab termies squad deepstriking). It ended up with my telemon not making the charge, even with 8th ed. re-roll which is even more reliable than 9th ed. I'm just not going to trust a 9" inch charge, even with 78% chance. You'd think it's reliable, but it's going to fail on you at the worst moment.
Now, with smaller boards, I think Homer is even better than before.
But to each their own. I don't trust the odds personally and I strongly believe the other shield hosts are better than DH. I'm also team Shadowkeeper I tried them and Aquilan Shiled in 9th ed so far, and liked both, planning to try Solar Watch soon, they look very good too. DH failed me, so will take a while for me to give them another chance.
Also people seem to forget we aren't the only army with heroic intervention. Nothing sucks worse than not being able to make your charge and then get slaughtered by a heroically intervening warlord. Had it happen twice already, once with a smash captain, once with a smash SGT, and in 8th it would happen all the time with Daemon Princes/primarchs.I really don't see Dread coming out on top. It's too obvious. At least the other hosts don't hold up a blinking neon sign that says "Kill this unit to stop my entire plan". If I were my opponent, I would take the odds of killing a Dread host Telemon over a squad of buffed up Terminators with Val behind them, any day and twice on Sunday. The Telemon based army also is going to lose more than it wins on missions.
I’m going to have to agree with anti-dreadhost side here. In fact, I’m beginning to be anti-deepstrike in general. Banner drops are great and all, but you’re giving up 3 CP for the privilege which IMO isn’t needed. The reason for this is that pre-war is the spider, terminators not in reserve would just instantly be shot off the board, so you needed banner drop in order to allow them to do their job before horribly dying. Now with the changes to 9th and is getting so many defensive strats, I’ve found that opponents can no longer decimate a squad in a single (and in fact often times 2-3) rounds of shooting. Smaller board sizes also allow your guys to make it into great position by turn 2, meaning I’ve found deploying terminators to actually increase their positional ability.
With all that said I’ve been playing solar watch for +1 movement warlord trait. Their strat to cost the opposing player CP has also been better than I expected, as many armies have disposable characters which need to be mid board. I’m not sure if watch is better than shadow-keepers, but to me it’s a debate IMO.
Salt donkey wrote: I’m going to have to agree with anti-dreadhost side here. In fact, I’m beginning to be anti-deepstrike in general. Banner drops are great and all, but you’re giving up 3 CP for the privilege which IMO isn’t needed. The reason for this is that pre-war is the spider, terminators not in reserve would just instantly be shot off the board, so you needed banner drop in order to allow them to do their job before horribly dying. Now with the changes to 9th and is getting so many defensive strats, I’ve found that opponents can no longer decimate a squad in a single (and in fact often times 2-3) rounds of shooting. Smaller board sizes also allow your guys to make it into great position by turn 2, meaning I’ve found deploying terminators to actually increase their positional ability.
With all that said I’ve been playing solar watch for +1 movement warlord trait. Their strat to cost the opposing player CP has also been better than I expected, as many armies have disposable characters which need to be mid board. I’m not sure if watch is better than shadow-keepers, but to me it’s a debate IMO.
Well you can spend 3 cp dropping them in somewhere awesome, or 5 a turn making sure they aren't shot to death.
It's more CP efficient to DS them because the amount of Cp to dump keeping them alive is dramatic. They're not any more durable as a base statline than they were before, you spend CP to keep them alive.
Salt donkey wrote: I’m going to have to agree with anti-dreadhost side here. In fact, I’m beginning to be anti-deepstrike in general. Banner drops are great and all, but you’re giving up 3 CP for the privilege which IMO isn’t needed. The reason for this is that pre-war is the spider, terminators not in reserve would just instantly be shot off the board, so you needed banner drop in order to allow them to do their job before horribly dying. Now with the changes to 9th and is getting so many defensive strats, I’ve found that opponents can no longer decimate a squad in a single (and in fact often times 2-3) rounds of shooting. Smaller board sizes also allow your guys to make it into great position by turn 2, meaning I’ve found deploying terminators to actually increase their positional ability.
With all that said I’ve been playing solar watch for +1 movement warlord trait. Their strat to cost the opposing player CP has also been better than I expected, as many armies have disposable characters which need to be mid board. I’m not sure if watch is better than shadow-keepers, but to me it’s a debate IMO.
Well you can spend 3 cp dropping them in somewhere awesome, or 5 a turn making sure they aren't shot to death.
It's more CP efficient to DS them because the amount of Cp to dump keeping them alive is dramatic. They're not any more durable as a base statline than they were before, you spend CP to keep them alive.
If you are having trouble keeping a character properly screened with out stat lines, then your dice flat out stink and they need to go to the time out corner. The Homer drop will get them there free, likely on turn 2, well within achievable charge distance, without the need to spend gobs of CP. Just because we now have more CP shouldn't mean we need to spend it all in the first 2 turns.
What does this group value a CP at, points wise. If the Telemon costs 3 CP to drop down next to a screen of troops and a HQ or two, and annialates them, that's maybe a 100pts? Was that worth it? No. Now if the Telemon could DS and take out a knight on turn 2, which it cannot, then I would say 4-500pts is worth the CP. obviously those are two wildly different scenarios. But what is the worth of 3CP to drop essentially a giant kill bot within 9 inches of a enemy unit that may very well obliterate it? I would rather give my Terminators or bikes a big buff, and let them do their jobs. I don't see the Dread host Telemon earning it's points or it's CP cost back before it gets killed.
The thing with the DS list is that its a complete one trick pony. It works, you win, it doesn't, you lose.
I also agree with the anti-dread host here. You get a good strategem (the WL trait is rubbish) which requires things to have deep struck that turn. there's so much more utility in shadowkeepers or solar watch- their strats happen for the full game rather than for 1-3 charges in one turn. Plus, if you run a vexilla and your'e 3' away then whats the point of the stratagem?
Quick question - Unleash the lions, is this intended for units of 3 or can I spend 2cp to unleash 10 lions and make them little character hunters and charge blockers.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Quick question - Unleash the lions, is this intended for units of 3 or can I spend 2cp to unleash 10 lions and make them little character hunters and charge blockers.
Do it at the start of the battle and you essentially have 10 character-level threats running round the board all game- that have obsec. A great little 'alternative' strategy
Dreadhost locks your into a specific play style, and with how small our army is and the small board sizes deep striking a huge bomb is a less consistent than shadow keepers stratagem while the emissaries stratagem is huge offensively and been able to add another 3 inches to your vexilla allows you to spread out to avoid mw bombs
Shinymarine wrote: Dreadhost locks your into a specific play style, and with how small our army is and the small board sizes deep striking a huge bomb is a less consistent than shadow keepers stratagem while the emissaries stratagem is huge offensively and been able to add another 3 inches to your vexilla allows you to spread out to avoid mw bombs
I wouldn't say it locks you in, precisely the opposite. Most custodes lists will probably have offensive deepstrike elements of some kind, so to not have to tie them in to always use Vexilla Teleport homer like they all do now gives you a huge amount of flexibility in the games where using the homer strat isn't possible or isn't the best option. If you're not putting anything in deepstrike reserve then clearly your aren't gonna be taking dreadhost, I thought that was obvious enough that it didn't have to be said.
I totally agree that having an extra defensive strat is by far the strongest when taken at face value with zero context. My comment earlier in the thread wasn't that Dreadhost is better than Shadowkeepers (it isn't), merely that if Custodes become a popular choice for tournaments, Dreadhost may provide something of an answer to an anti-Custodes meta which could potentially develop in the future (i.e where people are building lists to screen or snipe vexillas to prevent DS units from charging).
When I look at the new Primaris Impulsor, I am so glad I went Custodes over Primaris. I can't believe they are springing 100% new Codexes on a faction that JUST had a Codex re-release less than 6 months ago? How do you justify a new mandatory Codex re-release.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: When I look at the new Primaris Impulsor, I am so glad I went Custodes over Primaris. I can't believe they are springing 100% new Codexes on a faction that JUST had a Codex re-release less than 6 months ago? How do you justify a new mandatory Codex re-release.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: When I look at the new Primaris Impulsor, I am so glad I went Custodes over Primaris. I can't believe they are springing 100% new Codexes on a faction that JUST had a Codex re-release less than 6 months ago? How do you justify a new mandatory Codex re-release.
Cash money.
In the words of the great Randy Moss: "Straight CASH HOMEY!"
Has anyone given thought to running twin accelerator culverins on a Telemon? With the new points he costs just 35 more points than a Caladius with the same firepower (more if he doesn’t move) but ALOT more durability. With all the supposed heavy infantry running around, intercessors and a whole army whose thing is ignoring AP-2, it seems like that gun might be nice to have. Obviously not as good as the storm cannons against vehicles, but with twice the shots and being 30 pts cheaper is it good enough?
greyknight12 wrote: Has anyone given thought to running twin accelerator culverins on a Telemon? With the new points he costs just 35 more points than a Caladius with the same firepower (more if he doesn’t move) but ALOT more durability. With all the supposed heavy infantry running around, intercessors and a whole army whose thing is ignoring AP-2, it seems like that gun might be nice to have. Obviously not as good as the storm cannons against vehicles, but with twice the shots and being 30 pts cheaper is it good enough?
If you're bringing Aquilons or Jetbikes, yes I think it may be worth it. You need anti-vehicle somewhere, but we don't have to rely exclusively on ranged anymore.
As was expected:
Only custodes units can get Sworn Guardians and the Emperor’sChosen abilities.
No tanking for a knight via Shield of Honour
No double WLT via shoulder the mantle
Vengeance of the Machine Spirit got fixed
Ancient Artifice is now minus 1 dmg so same as the SM strat.
A nerf to The Emperor’s Auspice Stratagem. doesn't effect number of shots anymore.
Sadly no excpetion for thr Vindicare to ingore the new character rule so he is still pretty much useless because will just be shot to without a baby sitter unit
Tiberias wrote: The nerf to ancient artifice is slightly annoying, but hey...the strat is still decent.
Has anyone given the venatari a spin in 9th already?
I gave them a whirl. I think I got unlucky though. They lost like two models to a Plagueburst Crawler, 1 to another weapon and then a 4th to morale (rolled a 6) after failing to kill a 4 wounds Malignant Plaguecaster with Superior Fire Patterns on their pistols.
Tiberias wrote: The nerf to ancient artifice is slightly annoying, but hey...the strat is still decent.
Has anyone given the venatari a spin in 9th already?
I gave them a whirl. I think I got unlucky though. They lost like two models to a Plagueburst Crawler, 1 to another weapon and then a 4th to morale (rolled a 6) after failing to kill a 4 wounds Malignant Plaguecaster with Superior Fire Patterns on their pistols.
Well that's not a great showing, but it seems the dice gods hated you that day.
Do the venatari have any good targets against tau? I have a Friendly game against the space communists coming up and was thinking of bringing venatari.
Tiberias wrote: The nerf to ancient artifice is slightly annoying, but hey...the strat is still decent.
Has anyone given the venatari a spin in 9th already?
I gave them a whirl. I think I got unlucky though. They lost like two models to a Plagueburst Crawler, 1 to another weapon and then a 4th to morale (rolled a 6) after failing to kill a 4 wounds Malignant Plaguecaster with Superior Fire Patterns on their pistols.
Well that's not a great showing, but it seems the dice gods hated you that day.
Do the venatari have any good targets against tau? I have a Friendly game against the space communists coming up and was thinking of bringing venatari.
They do good against crisis suits.
But otherwise, no.
Venatari have a very stong niche which is killing heavy infantry. They are less strong, but still passible at light infantry and armor. Against standard tau nonsense you'll just be killing drones or firewarriors because their big suits have around 30 to 50 wounds
Tiberias wrote: The nerf to ancient artifice is slightly annoying, but hey...the strat is still decent.
Has anyone given the venatari a spin in 9th already?
I gave them a whirl. I think I got unlucky though. They lost like two models to a Plagueburst Crawler, 1 to another weapon and then a 4th to morale (rolled a 6) after failing to kill a 4 wounds Malignant Plaguecaster with Superior Fire Patterns on their pistols.
Well that's not a great showing, but it seems the dice gods hated you that day.
Do the venatari have any good targets against tau? I have a Friendly game against the space communists coming up and was thinking of bringing venatari.
They do good against crisis suits.
But otherwise, no.
Venatari have a very stong niche which is killing heavy infantry. They are less strong, but still passible at light infantry and armor. Against standard tau nonsense you'll just be killing drones or firewarriors because their big suits have around 30 to 50 wounds
Thanks for the advice...maybe I'll swap them for some allarus.
How would you guys go about actually killing a riptide? My buddy never plays triptide thankfully, but every time I played against even just one of those suckers I felt that I just had to ignore it and play the mission, because I just couldn't kill it. Or it would have taken me way too many resources to take it down.
It just feels unkillable, when you have to weather overwatch, kill all the drones with massed shots and then still have to overcome a 3++ most of the time.
Tiberias wrote: The nerf to ancient artifice is slightly annoying, but hey...the strat is still decent.
Has anyone given the venatari a spin in 9th already?
I gave them a whirl. I think I got unlucky though. They lost like two models to a Plagueburst Crawler, 1 to another weapon and then a 4th to morale (rolled a 6) after failing to kill a 4 wounds Malignant Plaguecaster with Superior Fire Patterns on their pistols.
Well that's not a great showing, but it seems the dice gods hated you that day.
Do the venatari have any good targets against tau? I have a Friendly game against the space communists coming up and was thinking of bringing venatari.
They do good against crisis suits.
But otherwise, no.
Venatari have a very stong niche which is killing heavy infantry. They are less strong, but still passible at light infantry and armor. Against standard tau nonsense you'll just be killing drones or firewarriors because their big suits have around 30 to 50 wounds
Thanks for the advice...maybe I'll swap them for some allarus.
How would you guys go about actually killing a riptide? My buddy never plays triptide thankfully, but every time I played against even just one of those suckers I felt that I just had to ignore it and play the mission, because I just couldn't kill it. Or it would have taken me way too many resources to take it down.
It just feels unkillable, when you have to weather overwatch, kill all the drones with massed shots and then still have to overcome a 3++ most of the time.
I would use Terminators and Auramite and Adamatium. Do you have access to FW units?
)
) I may get a centrepiece dread from 
. however I did deliberately position it so it would be the only feasible thing to shoot at from a full