Even if you put enough custodes (bikes or infantry, doesn't matter which) on the front lines to hold against ork mobs, anything not immediately in melee is getting pummeled by Lootas or smasha guns surrounded by gretchin, and in the case of the Lootas using grot shield. When it's impossible to get to them they become very very nasty
Competitive ork lists don't really run lootas anymore, or even very many boyz for that matter. Lootas should be pretty easy to handle since we have a 2+ in cover and use 3W models. I play against some pretty competitive ork players w/ custodes and I haven't lost a game against them yet. A smart ork player will actually try to outmaneuver and hide from you, not overwhelm you with boyz.
Well I personally find Lootas really nasty. Run right they have a good chance at 3 shots each and can shoot twice, always hitting on 5+ And getting an extra hit on 5+ with Grot shield and Kustom forcefield. Very little we can do against that. I regularly play against a guy who runs them and my 2+ or 1+ in cover doesn’t matter against that many shots. I end up doing what Custodes do well, hiding & just holding objectives as best as I can.
1 custode takes 4 damage, dies, another takes 2 damage.
Seems like a lot of points and CP to kill a 50 point model. Also realistically an ork player wouldn't use more dakka unless forced to because they moved, it's a terrible waste of CP.
And yeah I just hide and take objectives also vs orks, and they just leave me alone to avoid giving up kill points. Not that much dies during the game.
Orks took third place at a recent Major, and so did Chaos. Spikey bits did a article about what a shock it was seeing a Chaos list go to the finals.https://spikeybits.com/2019/06/top-five-1st-place-lists-across-the-latest-40k-tournaments.html
Dude, that’s the 2019 Gentlemen’s GT...I was there and it was a year ago. I also played against Ben Jurek’s list at Battle for LA the month before, and believe me it wasn’t a horde.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Orks took third place at a recent Major, and so did Chaos. Spikey bits did a article about what a shock it was seeing a Chaos list go to the finals.https://spikeybits.com/2019/06/top-five-1st-place-lists-across-the-latest-40k-tournaments.html
Chaos has the “possessed bomb”, which is basically a bunch of Possessed (hence the name) that through stacking traits and abilities are either -4 to hit and/or untargetable by shooting. For Custodes, Chaos has always been a potentially bad matchup since a lot of lists were spamming mortal wounds or at least had the ability to switch into that role. I haven’t played against them, and realistically it’s silly to plan it out since War of the Spider will probably be out before tournaments resume. However, the naturally high BS of Custodes means it’s still possible to shoot the possessed in some cases or simply focus down the other parts of the list, and if you get to swing first hitting the bomb with a killy enough melee unit could kill it before it swings back with a billion attacks.
I think the emergence of Grey Knights will see Possessed bombs disappear tbh. Like you said greyknight the negatives to hit or Alpha Legion shenanigans are largely against shooting so if we can slam them with a hammer unit out of fgltc then I think we can beat them, if and when they show up.
I was merely pointing out the flaw in a previous post that stated Chaos isn't competitive anymore. They still have top placings in many tournaments. Both Chaos vanilla and other blue and green flavors.
Orks are slightly less varied, what with really only one style being effective. Heavy on the Wierd Boys, and nobs(?) I don't know the competitive ORk scene.
My point is, horde armies are out there, and we still have problems with them in 2k games. we can't spare the points to toss a squad of 8 bikes in, and out melee just doesn't have the shooting to make an effective dent.
The best case scenario for us has always been to play to our strengths, and pray for some form of melee/fight phase buff.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I was merely pointing out the flaw in a previous post that stated Chaos isn't competitive anymore. They still have top placings in many tournaments.
No one said Chaos wasn't competitive...I've looked through the past 2 pages. In fact, anyone in who follows the competitive scene would tell you that Chaos is one of the best armies though in a weird place cause of GK.
Orks are slightly less varied, what with really only one style being effective. Heavy on the Wierd Boys, and nobs(?) I don't know the competitive ORk scene.
I'll tell you the competitive Ork scene looks and plays totally different than the competitive Chaos scene
My point is, horde armies are out there, and we still have problems with them in 2k games. we can't spare the points to toss a squad of 8 bikes in, and out melee just doesn't have the shooting to make an effective dent.
Look at the lists again. Nothing from Chaos resembles any semblance of a threatening horde, unless you're concerned about cultists. And if you're concerned about hordes, replace something else in your list with an anti-horde unit. 1 bike kills 4.4 guardsmen a turn (or cultists in cover)...it doesn't take much to cover that base. You don't have to use bikes either, Sag Guard and Caladius tanks are also decent options. That's part of part of competitive list-building, changing the units you take to adapt to the meta.
The best case scenario for us has always been to play to our strengths, and pray for some form of melee/fight phase buff.
Why? The winning-est list Custodes have had this edition, period, has been based around shooting (triple Caladius). I'd like to be a better melee army too because it's fluffy and more fun, but in a shooting edition I'll take more ranged firepower if that's all I've got.
Look man, I'm not trying to pick a fight with you. But literally every one of your posts comes across as an aggressive "hot take", and you defend those wrong opinions hard until they've been picked apart for a full page in depth by every other poster. We're all here to share ideas and get feedback on how to play this army better; we bring facts and experiences and compare notes. If I ask a question, I'm not going to shoot down the answer, especially bearing in mind that tone is hard to communicate on the internet. I'm here to learn with an open mind, and I hope everyone else can keep one too.
The most recent Psychic Awakening short, consequences, mentions a Custodes Shield-captain having a storm bolter on his guardian spear. Probably a typo, but if we get Storm Bolter Guardian Spears that would make hordes a lot more handle-able
Not really, because SC's with spears is possibly the worst configuration for them. Also, if our HQ units being within 24" of a horde is our answer to hordes, count that as a fail. If they make it an option for anthing with a spear, that instantly changes the value of wardens and Spearanators. What this may be is GW saying giving the Aquilon SBs to regular Terminators? Like replace the Launchers with SB's?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Not really, because SC's with spears is possibly the worst configuration for them. Also, if our HQ units being within 24" of a horde is our answer to hordes, count that as a fail. If they make it an option for anthing with a spear, that instantly changes the value of wardens and Spearanators. What this may be is GW saying giving the Aquilon SBs to regular Terminators? Like replace the Launchers with SB's?
He's just saying that a storm bolter would mean the ROF on a guardian spear would double. Which, if it keeps the stats of STR4, AP-1, D2, and just doubles in shots? That would be really nice.
1. That would make spears pretty broken, as they would essentially be rapid fire Primaris SBRs. 2. It would invalidate a huge chuck of current models and weapons. What would be the point of the Axe if the Spear Captain can already do +1 to wound and gets twice the shooting?
What is the point of bikers if Captains can put out better stonger shooting? Nah, this has to be a typo. Regular SBs S4/ap0/d1 maybe, but not at AP1 D2.
Honestly with double rate of fire custodes would still have pretty lousy shooting for their points.
A lastrum storm bolter on a spear does seem like thematic overkill though, yes.
Honestly custodes theming in general does seem a bit wonky in places, especially the baffling codex terminators that just have a little extra bulk and a wimpy wrist gun over normal armour and equipment.
Custodes are not meant to be a Stand alone Faction, they were ccreated back in the Days of Soup, when GW was pushing every army to need 2-3 battalions of Imperial Guard or SM scouts. They never expected Custards to be stand alone.
SM bolters can be AP1/2. Why not us? But what they do to spears should apply to axes and swords too tbh. Still... A few extra shots aren’t going to matter on 3-9 spears. All infantry guns need to be assault 2 so they can be used on the move (while advancing as they’re slow otherwise) to be useful... or my personal favourite is pistol 2 to be fluffy. Spears as 24” S4 AP1 D2 Pistol 2 makes them good. Shooting heretics in the face as you mash them up in melee is thematic as feck.
Allarus have some pretty cool special rules. Run them with the 12” heroic intervention warlord trait and they can do some cool stuff. They’re just overcosted and suffer from the same problem all Custodes do, a 2+ save means squat when every man and his dog is running around with high rof AP1 and AP2.
Custodes as Talons get Sisters etc. so that’s good at least. How useful a bunch of T3 3+ armour saves will be we’ll see. GW could do some cool stuff and allow us to have Sisters in Guard squads buffing their anti psyker capability but they’ll probably just add them as troops/elites.
Basically there’s some cool sh*t that has precedence already you could do to make Custodes unique and thematic. Or you could just add some new strats and give us Sisters. Let’s hope GW come through for us.
Pretty sure that the author of that piece just either forgot the name of the weapon or looked at a picture and said “storm bolter?”.
No other psychic awakening book that I’m aware of has changed stat lines of weapons. The most they might change would be adding a strat or doctrine-like system that changes them to rapid-fire 2, etc. But I can almost guarantee you the basic weapon profiles aren’t changing in their PA book.
greyknight12 wrote: Pretty sure that the author of that piece just either forgot the name of the weapon or looked at a picture and said “storm bolter?”.
No other psychic awakening book that I’m aware of has changed stat lines of weapons. The most they might change would be adding a strat or doctrine-like system that changes them to rapid-fire 2, etc. But I can almost guarantee you the basic weapon profiles aren’t changing in their PA book.
I think you hit the nail on the head when you said make all spears and swords assault 2/3. Our swords should be assault 3.
If this were christmas I'd be asking ffor GW to give Non-FW custodes some love in the realm of Terminator buffs. But our most worthless unit will likely continue to be worthless.
Nah sadly I also don’t think it’s likely weapons or unit profiles will get changed. We’ll get talons keyword whatever that gives us (prob squads of sisters as elites). Some new strats and new WL traits probably based around different hosts/companies and similar to what we’ve seen already in other releases... which could be alright but not changing our real issues. Likely no changes to CPs though so not so helpful at the end of the day when your running 4-8 CPs. We’re a small book and looking at what GSC, DW, or Harlequins got doesn’t fill me with much hope. Nice to dream though!
If this were christmas I'd be asking ffor GW to give Non-FW custodes some love in the realm of Terminator buffs. But our most worthless unit will likely continue to be worthless.
Uh, Allarus clearly aren't our most worthless unit. Surely that would go to the Land Raider or basic Contemptor?
I could see both of those potentially earning their points back. The lascannons could take out something big, and the Multi-Melta could as well. Also it's our most Dakka unit non-FW. So the Assault cannon can potentially clear up mobs. Allarus in the numbers required to be even potentially useful require almost 500 points. Or around 5-6 models. Hell, the base unit is 252 points, which is almost never makes back. I've had success with a unit of 10, but that was 840 points. and even then, they were just immovable objective blockers.
If this were christmas I'd be asking ffor GW to give Non-FW custodes some love in the realm of Terminator buffs. But our most worthless unit will likely continue to be worthless.
Uh, Allarus clearly aren't our most worthless unit. Surely that would go to the Land Raider or basic Contemptor?
I wouldn’t class either of those as custodes units, I wouldn’t even consider taking them unless they were converted to look the part, such as by buying a real custodes dread and giving it an assault cannon.
If we were able to go dual las on the contemptor I'd almost have to buy it as I have no long range anti vehicle in my list. But as it stands the Multinaught might as well have a flashing neon sign saying KILL ME on it.
If Allarus get a 3++ without having to sacrifice the spear or axe in my opinion that would really improve their worth. Or if they got thunder hammers, although that would mean a whole new model, so that's not happening.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I'd rather they make the launcher a S5 AP1 D2 weapon. We are already hilariously hard to kill.
We were, now with the buffs Eldar and SM got it's quite a bit easier. Plus GK and TSons spamming mortal wounds. I'd like a little more durability, but also agree our guns/melee weapons need to be better. Anything Space Marines have (Stalker bolt rifles, etc) we should have a better version of. I'm willing to pay the points for it, but our thing is that we are literally the best and I want that on the tabletop.
T5 2+/4++ dudes is not what it was when 8th came out. There’s an insane amount of -1/-2AP & D2 out there. -2 puts us on our invulnerable save meaning those points we pay for 2+ are wasted. Not to mention mortal wounds simply murder us.
We have to hide and wrap. If we can’t hide or wrap we die.
We are hilariously hard to kill until the heavy weapons start shooting. I don't know about you guys, but I always play against heavy weapons
Automatically Appended Next Post: And when our infantry or bikes go up against someone worthy of their combat prowess like heavy dreadnoughts or even Invictors they tend to get smooshed if they don't wipe it out first fight phase
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: With proper use of SoS, GK are nor really a problem with MW spam. With proper use of flags, shooting shouldn't be either.
A GK Paladin squad without any re-rolls using only storm bolters with Psybolt Ammo in their “Shooting Tide” kills 11.1 sisters of silence, with Astral Aim they do it from out of LOS and with Edict Imperator they do it in the psychic phase. They can additionally benefit from a +1 to hit or re-roll hits buff. And that’s 24” range.
The Vexilla Magnifica is helpful, but against space marines and other armies that now have full re-rolls to hit it’s less effective and with the steady dropping of points in codecies and Chapter Approved there are more guns on the tables.
Im actually betting they are going to give sisters some Custodes love. I'm betting at least a 5++ that would turn into a 4++ for being part of a Custards force. Also they get a 6+++ for Any wounds in the psycic phase.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: With proper use of SoS, GK are nor really a problem with MW spam. With proper use of flags, shooting shouldn't be either.
A GK Paladin squad without any re-rolls using only storm bolters with Psybolt Ammo in their “Shooting Tide” kills 11.1 sisters of silence, with Astral Aim they do it from out of LOS and with Edict Imperator they do it in the psychic phase. They can additionally benefit from a +1 to hit or re-roll hits buff. And that’s 24” range.
The Vexilla Magnifica is helpful, but against space marines and other armies that now have full re-rolls to hit it’s less effective and with the steady dropping of points in codecies and Chapter Approved there are more guns on the tables.
That's an expensive squad killing like a quarter of their points though, and I feel that your army should be in its face pretty fast.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Im actually betting they are going to give sisters some Custodes love. I'm betting at least a 5++ that would turn into a 4++ for being part of a Custards force. Also they get a 6+++ for Any wounds in the psycic phase.
On what planet do you think SoS are going to get the equivalent of Celestine's Moving Castle just for showing up?
The planet where GW has been fairly positive with the fluff surrounding SoS. They are still 1W models at the end of the day, so giving them a 5++ for showing up doesn't seem entirely broken. We aren't giving them a flying assault transport that has a 4++ here. But if they stay elites, and don't go troop choice, it makes sense they will be getting some sos form of a cannoness. You can bet the SoSHQ will have an invuln. Given the Custodes rule that any infantry gets +1 to that, it's not inconcievable that we might see SoSHW with 4++ running around.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: The planet where GW has been fairly positive with the fluff surrounding SoS. They are still 1W models at the end of the day, so giving them a 5++ for showing up doesn't seem entirely broken. We aren't giving them a flying assault transport that has a 4++ here. But if they stay elites, and don't go troop choice, it makes sense they will be getting some sos form of a cannoness. You can bet the SoSHQ will have an invuln. Given the Custodes rule that any infantry gets +1 to that, it's not inconcievable that we might see SoSHW with 4++ running around.
It is entirely inconceivable. Nobody is getting a 3+/4++ model that is immune to psyker powers for 10 points per body. Furthermore, holding up fluff fiction as examples of what things do on the table is the height of lunacy.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: With proper use of SoS, GK are nor really a problem with MW spam. With proper use of flags, shooting shouldn't be either.
A GK Paladin squad without any re-rolls using only storm bolters with Psybolt Ammo in their “Shooting Tide” kills 11.1 sisters of silence, with Astral Aim they do it from out of LOS and with Edict Imperator they do it in the psychic phase. They can additionally benefit from a +1 to hit or re-roll hits buff. And that’s 24” range.
The Vexilla Magnifica is helpful, but against space marines and other armies that now have full re-rolls to hit it’s less effective and with the steady dropping of points in codecies and Chapter Approved there are more guns on the tables.
That's an expensive squad killing like a quarter of their points though, and I feel that your army should be in its face pretty fast.
Sure, but after your sisters are dead your real units are going to be eating D2 smites the rest of the game. And it's not like GK are slouches in close combat. My example was looking at the most common GK build right now (double paladin bomb); and it plays by shooting your screens from range. Then it either jumps in your face or kites you, all the while throwing out smites and buffed storm bolter fire.
I'm back to maining Grey Knights partially because I don't think I can build a custodes list that can beat my grey knights list after their PA update. Custodes will need some specific buffs to deal with them, or a change in list design. That said, Custodes are in a much better place in general after the SM nerf.
You act like GK are made of CP, they aren't. Unless youre playing soup, you don't have nearly enough CP for all the shenanigans GK have that make them scary. At most you might get one deadly round of shooting, taking out maybe a squad of sisters. Then my Terminators and dreadnaughts are in your backfield, crushing your hopes and dreams. GK are still the weakest faction in the entire SM line up. 1W models with a crappy gimmick that doesn't appear anywhere in top lists. Because the people that play the game know GK are a gimmick, not a major threat to be list built around.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: You act like GK are made of CP, they aren't. Unless youre playing soup, you don't have nearly enough CP for all the shenanigans GK have that make them scary. At most you might get one deadly round of shooting, taking out maybe a squad of sisters. Then my Terminators and dreadnaughts are in your backfield, crushing your hopes and dreams. GK are still the weakest faction in the entire SM line up. 1W models with a crappy gimmick that doesn't appear anywhere in top lists. Because the people that play the game know GK are a gimmick, not a major threat to be list built around.
That GK build is a double battalion, giving you a healthy 13 CP. Plus GK can now generate CP with a simple psychic power. Once again you embarrass yourself by not knowing even the most basic facts about what you're talking about.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: You act like GK are made of CP, they aren't. Unless youre playing soup, you don't have nearly enough CP for all the shenanigans GK have that make them scary. At most you might get one deadly round of shooting, taking out maybe a squad of sisters. Then my Terminators and dreadnaughts are in your backfield, crushing your hopes and dreams. GK are still the weakest faction in the entire SM line up. 1W models with a crappy gimmick that doesn't appear anywhere in top lists. Because the people that play the game know GK are a gimmick, not a major threat to be list built around.
That GK build is a double battalion, giving you a healthy 13 CP. Plus GK can now generate CP with a simple psychic power. Once again you embarrass yourself by not knowing even the most basic facts about what you're talking about.
Most of the GK shenanigans now are also based around psychic powers rather than stratagems now as well. My example of paladins shooting costs 2 CP to kill the sisters. Everything else is a psychic power or Tide
Grey Knights are stronger than Salamanders, Ultramarines, Black Templars, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, and possibly also Deathwatch. They're hardly a marginal force.
considering BT are pretty much dog crap right now, there are really only 2-3 viable SM forces. Iron Hands, GK, and maybe Deathwatch, but I have yet to see anyone take them as a main force in any tournament and win.
Does anyone really expect Custodians to suddenly become viable off just PA updates? It is going to take a full re-build of the codex, and that isn't likely until they start getting into whatever 9th is. GW created them as a fluff faction, without putting any effort into them. I bet you dollars to doughnuts that someone said "Lets make an all primarch army. and that was the start of Custodes as a playable faction. They're stat line pretty much preserves them as the most costly race, unless they suddenly make primaris GK. I don't even want to think about that. Primaris Dreadknights anyone?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: considering BT are pretty much dog crap right now, there are really only 2-3 viable SM forces. Iron Hands, GK, and maybe Deathwatch, but I have yet to see anyone take them as a main force in any tournament and win.
Does anyone really expect Custodians to suddenly become viable off just PA updates? It is going to take a full re-build of the codex, and that isn't likely until they start getting into whatever 9th is. GW created them as a fluff faction, without putting any effort into them. I bet you dollars to doughnuts that someone said "Lets make an all primarch army. and that was the start of Custodes as a playable faction. They're stat line pretty much preserves them as the most costly race, unless they suddenly make primaris GK. I don't even want to think about that. Primaris Dreadknights anyone?
I mean, grey knights went from literally the worst book in the game to very playable in PA. So there's always hope.
I keep wanting to point to meta data. If GK were actually competitive, we'd see more of them, and while there are literally no tournaments going on right now, pre-covid there was a single list that managed to go 6-0 at Gentleman's cup (I think that was the title) that was heavy paladin with the usual GMNDK with Draigo, and literally everyone was super surprised. And not because it went 6-0, but because most people in the MEta chasing world still think GK are crap. They still aren't top 5 Meta. Which still I think happens to be varying flavors of Primaris bs. But, ever the Mets Fan, I will hope and pray, and wait for the heart break that is the reveal of Custodes PA.
According to 40kstats.com GK have a higher win % post doctrine FAQ than any SM faction. They're ranked #2 among all factions for win % (if we eliminate the Crimson Fists entry for having a sample size of only 4 games)
They have a higher win rate than almost any other faction post doctrine nerf. Lists that are pure or hybrid GSC have more top 4 finishes in that time period (in tournaments that adopted the errata and didn't exclude it due to timing) than Tau, Aeldari, Orks, or Iron Hands. So yes, they're a top tier army in the current post doctrines nerf meta. The 40kstats numbers and placings are accurate.
I’m sure this has been discussed before but I’m going to ask again. I love the few custodes models I have but I’m not a fan of FW. I’m wanting to run custodes without FW. At the very least I’d like to soup them with my admech and scions. Would this be possible for a competitive list? I really love the allarus termis I just feel like they may be too expensive
Drdotts wrote: I’m sure this has been discussed before but I’m going to ask again. I love the few custodes models I have but I’m not a fan of FW. I’m wanting to run custodes without FW. At the very least I’d like to soup them with my admech and scions. Would this be possible for a competitive list? I really love the allarus termis I just feel like they may be too expensive
For a competitive list? You may be hard pressed. But I have heard people using the Allarus bombs to be effective, and then there is the Ezra Bridger type list with 2 batallions and like 30 custodian guard hunkering down and scoring objectives.
Jetbikes are also still good units, but everyone know what they can do, and are fire magnets, public enemy #1.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:I could see both of those potentially earning their points back. The lascannons could take out something big, and the Multi-Melta could as well. Also it's our most Dakka unit non-FW. So the Assault cannon can potentially clear up mobs. Allarus in the numbers required to be even potentially useful require almost 500 points. Or around 5-6 models. Hell, the base unit is 252 points, which is almost never makes back. I've had success with a unit of 10, but that was 840 points. and even then, they were just immovable objective blockers.
I think your points are out of date. They've gone down significantly since the codex was released. They're 71pts a pop now. Still too expensive, but they're easier to fit in to a list with the min squad being 40pts cheaper.
SirGunslinger wrote:If Allarus get a 3++ without having to sacrifice the spear or axe in my opinion that would really improve their worth. Or if they got thunder hammers, although that would mean a whole new model, so that's not happening.
Aquilons are the closest we'll get to that. Still d3 damage, but a proper strength and AP make up for a lot. It's just annoying that they lose the awesome stratagem support that Allarus get. And of course they're still too expensive.
Would anyone take another look at the Contemptor if they made the fist 4 damage a pop or a flat 6? I feel six might be broken, but it would at least get some purpose other than back field dakka. It could even get a telport homer and then go Fisto Roboto on something big an ugly.
Drdotts wrote: I’m sure this has been discussed before but I’m going to ask again. I love the few custodes models I have but I’m not a fan of FW. I’m wanting to run custodes without FW. At the very least I’d like to soup them with my admech and scions. Would this be possible for a competitive list? I really love the allarus termis I just feel like they may be too expensive
ATM there is no competitive custodes without FWIMO. Putting 30+ custodian guard on the table and hope you can hide them and not get shot off the board is not competing IMO. Sadly Custodes are in a bad spot and one of the worst army's in 40k right now. I suspect PA: War of the Spyder to come out at the end of this month and i hope it will fix a few of the issues.
Drdotts wrote: I’m sure this has been discussed before but I’m going to ask again. I love the few custodes models I have but I’m not a fan of FW. I’m wanting to run custodes without FW. At the very least I’d like to soup them with my admech and scions. Would this be possible for a competitive list? I really love the allarus termis I just feel like they may be too expensive
Go check out Darren on Canhammer TV (twitch or YouTube - there’s about 15 tactica vids just on Custodes, last one on tanglefoot was very good). He sometimes runs an Allarus list that whilst not competitive in the true ITC sense of the word, played right can hold its own. It’s about wraps, tri-pointing, abusing the Allarus special rules (always take the 12” HI warlord trait) and being clever with pile ins and your use of tanglefoot strat (easily one of the top 5 best strats in the game) etc. You won’t beat optimised Tau, SMs, or Eldar but it’s not a terrible way to play. I own 12 Allarus and find them to be great tbh. Before lockdown I played 2x6 Allarus with 3x3 shield guardians and double Vexilla w/Trajann. Beat GSC and Ultramarines so all is not lost. Would I take them to an ITC tournament? Probably not unless I was going for a laugh or a shot at painted prizes.
Seriously, every Custodes player should watch the Canhammer vids.
So does anyone think that PA will completely revamp the Codex units, or just add the Talons and rules for Valaria et al? Because right now, baring a revamp of the Codex, half our units are either worthless or just plain outdone by non codex (FW) units. I don't see them adding SoS as a troop, because that hasn't happened for anyone else, rebranding elites as troops. I do wish they would give us something, but they can't muck with the rules any more, given our bumpy history with rules. 2 weeks later FAQ and all that.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So does anyone think that PA will completely revamp the Codex units, or just add the Talons and rules for Valaria et al? Because right now, baring a revamp of the Codex, half our units are either worthless or just plain outdone by non codex (FW) units. I don't see them adding SoS as a troop, because that hasn't happened for anyone else, rebranding elites as troops. I do wish they would give us something, but they can't muck with the rules any more, given our bumpy history with rules. 2 weeks later FAQ and all that.
I am pretty sure there won't be a complete revamp of the Codex units. But its hard to tell whats gonna happen. SoS as troops would be nice and realistic if custodes and SoS are in a combied army why would the SOS be elite but the custodes troops?
Has GW ever made a niche elite unit (Referring to slot ) into a troop without any hubbub? I mean, that opens a pandora box of weird requests. Other elite armies will go insane. GK will rightly demand that they be given a 10pt troop choice. We shouldn't look for things majorly changing.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Has GW ever made a niche elite unit (Referring to slot ) into a troop without any hubbub? I mean, that opens a pandora box of weird requests. Other elite armies will go insane. GK will rightly demand that they be given a 10pt troop choice. We shouldn't look for things majorly changing.
Greyknights? You mean like scouts? Why would GW keep them elite is the question IMO.
I'm not saying GW won't, I am saying there is no precedent for it, GW hasn't made major sweeping changes to any faction or sub faction since PA started. Turning a extremely cheap sub faction of niche elite fluff into a troop choice would be a major step.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Has GW ever made a niche elite unit (Referring to slot ) into a troop without any hubbub? I mean, that opens a pandora box of weird requests. Other elite armies will go insane. GK will rightly demand that they be given a 10pt troop choice. We shouldn't look for things majorly changing.
Yes, actually. It's what happened to Custodian Guard. They were released as Elites in 7th and then turned into troops in 7th.
It really won't cause any problems. GK Strikes are already pretty decent for CP farming.
I don't think you can compare 50pt guardians to 10pt sisters. It's not even remotely similar. One unit is 150pts min and one is 50 minimum. Also strikes are 20ppm if I recall my battlescribe list. SoS come as elites because they can target characters with Psker keywords, they have a -1 aura that stacks, and they are armed with rapidfire S4 weapons. Thats a lot of umph for a 10pt unit. If they get the talons keyword, I assume you can put them in custodes transports. I don't envy trying to play lists like GK when you can soup in BNs of SoS that stack -3 to cast in my backfield that can be FGLTC into the backfield on turn 2. That will be broken.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I don't think you can compare 50pt guardians to 10pt sisters. It's not even remotely similar. One unit is 150pts min and one is 50 minimum. Also strikes are 20ppm if I recall my battlescribe list. SoS come as elites because they can target characters with Psker keywords, they have a -1 aura that stacks, and they are armed with rapidfire S4 weapons. Thats a lot of umph for a 10pt unit. If they get the talons keyword, I assume you can put them in custodes transports. I don't envy trying to play lists like GK when you can soup in BNs of SoS that stack -3 to cast in my backfield that can be FGLTC into the backfield on turn 2. That will be broken.
Strikes are 17 points a head including wargear, and they have zero problems killing SoS at range. Burning three CP, plus all of your deep strike capacity, to put three pods of Sisters in a vain attempt to neuter a GK psychic phase is abject lunacy, and a major gift to the GK player.
I also love how, according to you at least, S4 ap1 2d weapons are pathetic and underpowered on Custodians, but when a Sister pops off an S4 ap0 1d bolter they're somehow god tier. Your vaunted SoS deathball of 50 point ownage does a whopping 0.4 damage to a Strike team in Tide of Shadows (And yes, they're going to be in Shadows when you try to drop and nuke them).
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I don't think you can compare 50pt guardians to 10pt sisters. It's not even remotely similar. One unit is 150pts min and one is 50 minimum. Also strikes are 20ppm if I recall my battlescribe list. SoS come as elites because they can target characters with Psker keywords, they have a -1 aura that stacks, and they are armed with rapidfire S4 weapons. Thats a lot of umph for a 10pt unit. If they get the talons keyword, I assume you can put them in custodes transports. I don't envy trying to play lists like GK when you can soup in BNs of SoS that stack -3 to cast in my backfield that can be FGLTC into the backfield on turn 2. That will be broken.
Strikes are 17 points a head including wargear, and they have zero problems killing SoS at range. Burning three CP, plus all of your deep strike capacity, to put three pods of Sisters in a vain attempt to neuter a GK psychic phase is abject lunacy, and a major gift to the GK player.
I also love how, according to you at least, S4 ap1 2d weapons are pathetic and underpowered on Custodians, but when a Sister pops off an S4 ap0 1d bolter they're somehow god tier. Your vaunted SoS deathball of 50 point ownage does a whopping 0.4 damage to a Strike team in Tide of Shadows (And yes, they're going to be in Shadows when you try to drop and nuke them).
I am sorry you so misconstrued my post. I'm simply saying for the cost, they would be one of the best, if not the best troops in the game. What other troop unit does what they do for 10 points? I never implied they are god tier, or that strikes are bad, That was your hyperbole. You have made a strong reputation for yourself being a real forums tough guy. That's fine. My point is for 50 points you have sniper rules against anything wounds with psyker in it's sheet, the same target will roll all psyker tests with -4, and the grenades are just a free weapon that gives mortal wounds. Explain to me why you hate them so much? I just think for 10 points they are really good. Not god teir.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I don't think you can compare 50pt guardians to 10pt sisters. It's not even remotely similar. One unit is 150pts min and one is 50 minimum. Also strikes are 20ppm if I recall my battlescribe list. SoS come as elites because they can target characters with Psker keywords, they have a -1 aura that stacks, and they are armed with rapidfire S4 weapons. Thats a lot of umph for a 10pt unit. If they get the talons keyword, I assume you can put them in custodes transports. I don't envy trying to play lists like GK when you can soup in BNs of SoS that stack -3 to cast in my backfield that can be FGLTC into the backfield on turn 2. That will be broken.
Strikes are 17 points a head including wargear, and they have zero problems killing SoS at range. Burning three CP, plus all of your deep strike capacity, to put three pods of Sisters in a vain attempt to neuter a GK psychic phase is abject lunacy, and a major gift to the GK player.
I also love how, according to you at least, S4 ap1 2d weapons are pathetic and underpowered on Custodians, but when a Sister pops off an S4 ap0 1d bolter they're somehow god tier. Your vaunted SoS deathball of 50 point ownage does a whopping 0.4 damage to a Strike team in Tide of Shadows (And yes, they're going to be in Shadows when you try to drop and nuke them).
I am sorry you so misconstrued my post. I'm simply saying for the cost, they would be one of the best, if not the best troops in the game. What other troop unit does what they do for 10 points? I never implied they are god tier, or that strikes are bad, That was your hyperbole. You have made a strong reputation for yourself being a real forums tough guy. That's fine. My point is for 50 points you have sniper rules against anything wounds with psyker in it's sheet, the same target will roll all psyker tests with -4, and the grenades are just a free weapon that gives mortal wounds. Explain to me why you hate them so much? I just think for 10 points they are really good. Not god teir.
You said they'd be broken.
Against some lists, they're Sisters of Battle but worse (being a point more expensive and with no order traits or support HQs).
Against some lists, they're slightly better, due to having the -Psychic Aura. But then their squishy T3 butts get shot off the table and they no longer exist to make psykery harder.
At best, you'd get one turn of psyker penalties against pretty much any competitive list.
I never implied they are god tier, or that strikes are bad, That was your hyperbole.
Im not the one who has spent two pages going on about how "broken", and yes that is your word, SoS would be as troops. Thats not my hyperbole, that's yours. It's good to know that you're realizing just how ludicrous an argument it is though.
My point is for 50 points you have sniper rules against anything wounds with psyker in it's sheet, the same target will roll all psyker tests with -4, and the grenades are just a free weapon that gives mortal wounds.
The grenade does nothing, the bolter does nothing except against the most paper thin of targets. The null rule is nice, but exceptionally easy to mitigate.
And once again, you're wrong. They're overpriced, underprotected units whose only value is in providing a psychic oriented foe a slight speedbump before they can bring their casters to bear.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I don't think you can compare 50pt guardians to 10pt sisters. It's not even remotely similar. One unit is 150pts min and one is 50 minimum. Also strikes are 20ppm if I recall my battlescribe list. SoS come as elites because they can target characters with Psker keywords, they have a -1 aura that stacks, and they are armed with rapidfire S4 weapons. Thats a lot of umph for a 10pt unit. If they get the talons keyword, I assume you can put them in custodes transports. I don't envy trying to play lists like GK when you can soup in BNs of SoS that stack -3 to cast in my backfield that can be FGLTC into the backfield on turn 2. That will be broken.
Strikes are 17 points a head including wargear, and they have zero problems killing SoS at range. Burning three CP, plus all of your deep strike capacity, to put three pods of Sisters in a vain attempt to neuter a GK psychic phase is abject lunacy, and a major gift to the GK player.
I also love how, according to you at least, S4 ap1 2d weapons are pathetic and underpowered on Custodians, but when a Sister pops off an S4 ap0 1d bolter they're somehow god tier. Your vaunted SoS deathball of 50 point ownage does a whopping 0.4 damage to a Strike team in Tide of Shadows (And yes, they're going to be in Shadows when you try to drop and nuke them).
I am sorry you so misconstrued my post. I'm simply saying for the cost, they would be one of the best, if not the best troops in the game. What other troop unit does what they do for 10 points? I never implied they are god tier, or that strikes are bad, That was your hyperbole. You have made a strong reputation for yourself being a real forums tough guy. That's fine. My point is for 50 points you have sniper rules against anything wounds with psyker in it's sheet, the same target will roll all psyker tests with -4, and the grenades are just a free weapon that gives mortal wounds. Explain to me why you hate them so much? I just think for 10 points they are really good. Not god teir.
You said they'd be broken.
Against some lists, they're Sisters of Battle but worse (being a point more expensive and with no order traits or support HQs).
Against some lists, they're slightly better, due to having the -Psychic Aura. But then their squishy T3 butts get shot off the table and they no longer exist to make psykery harder.
At best, you'd get one turn of psyker penalties against pretty much any competitive list.
You are also forgetting that they are just there to fill out slots for CP farms, for Custodes. I don't want to overstate how improved Custodes would become overnight if they were given 150pt Battaion troops, instead of 350pt troop requirements. That frees up a lot of room for other things, that's almost a free tank.
They could off set this by mandating that Alleya and Valarian have to be taken to unlock them as troops, thus robbing them of their cost benefit.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Would anyone take another look at the Contemptor if they made the fist 4 damage a pop or a flat 6? I feel six might be broken, but it would at least get some purpose other than back field dakka. It could even get a telport homer and then go Fisto Roboto on something big an ugly.
I wouldn't, and that reason is the degrading movement stat.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I don't think you can compare 50pt guardians to 10pt sisters. It's not even remotely similar. One unit is 150pts min and one is 50 minimum. Also strikes are 20ppm if I recall my battlescribe list. SoS come as elites because they can target characters with Psker keywords, they have a -1 aura that stacks, and they are armed with rapidfire S4 weapons. Thats a lot of umph for a 10pt unit. If they get the talons keyword, I assume you can put them in custodes transports. I don't envy trying to play lists like GK when you can soup in BNs of SoS that stack -3 to cast in my backfield that can be FGLTC into the backfield on turn 2. That will be broken.
Strikes are 17 points a head including wargear, and they have zero problems killing SoS at range. Burning three CP, plus all of your deep strike capacity, to put three pods of Sisters in a vain attempt to neuter a GK psychic phase is abject lunacy, and a major gift to the GK player.
I also love how, according to you at least, S4 ap1 2d weapons are pathetic and underpowered on Custodians, but when a Sister pops off an S4 ap0 1d bolter they're somehow god tier. Your vaunted SoS deathball of 50 point ownage does a whopping 0.4 damage to a Strike team in Tide of Shadows (And yes, they're going to be in Shadows when you try to drop and nuke them).
I am sorry you so misconstrued my post. I'm simply saying for the cost, they would be one of the best, if not the best troops in the game. What other troop unit does what they do for 10 points? I never implied they are god tier, or that strikes are bad, That was your hyperbole. You have made a strong reputation for yourself being a real forums tough guy. That's fine. My point is for 50 points you have sniper rules against anything wounds with psyker in it's sheet, the same target will roll all psyker tests with -4, and the grenades are just a free weapon that gives mortal wounds. Explain to me why you hate them so much? I just think for 10 points they are really good. Not god teir.
You said they'd be broken.
Against some lists, they're Sisters of Battle but worse (being a point more expensive and with no order traits or support HQs).
Against some lists, they're slightly better, due to having the -Psychic Aura. But then their squishy T3 butts get shot off the table and they no longer exist to make psykery harder.
At best, you'd get one turn of psyker penalties against pretty much any competitive list.
You are also forgetting that they are just there to fill out slots for CP farms, for Custodes. I don't want to overstate how improved Custodes would become overnight if they were given 150pt Battaion troops, instead of 350pt troop requirements. That frees up a lot of room for other things, that's almost a free tank.
They could off set this by mandating that Alleya and Valarian have to be taken to unlock them as troops, thus robbing them of their cost benefit.
I don't get why 150p troops would make big difference. You can have a whole battalion for 165p if you take Admech.
Because that would be soup, the general feeling is that Talons will grant sisters some form of uni-dex buff, whether it be to be taken as troops for Custodes or that they will be granted some of their sweet sweet keyword custodes buffs like invulns or -1 to hit, or extra attacks. Just giving them access to the flag buffs would be great, I don't think anything else but custodes keyword is allowed to benefit from them. If they change the wording from Custodes, to Talons, suddenly they become slightly better.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I am sorry you so misconstrued my post. I'm simply saying for the cost, they would be one of the best, if not the best troops in the game. What other troop unit does what they do for 10 points?
Last year during the betadex period you would get 5 sisters with three stormbolters (which could be boosted to 2 damage AP -2 for a single CP) for 51 points, and each squad would get you a full two dice deny roll and a strategem for an extra 4+ deny if the first roll failed. Sporting their own morale protection, invulnerable, optional FnP, bonus and reroll to hit and even self-resurrection.
You could drop them straight into a custodes army with no drawbacks, but at the end of the day they didn't even displace guard allies.
As they stand sisters of silence have nothing on them other than potentially (if they are made troops) allowing a custodes player to drop their own troop units. If beta SoB allies didn't break the custodes then the SoS have a long long way to go before they do.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I am sorry you so misconstrued my post. I'm simply saying for the cost, they would be one of the best, if not the best troops in the game. What other troop unit does what they do for 10 points?
Last year during the betadex period you would get 5 sisters with three stormbolters (which could be boosted to 2 damage AP -2 for a single CP) for 51 points, and each squad would get you a full two dice deny roll and a strategem for an extra 4+ deny if the first roll failed. Sporting their own morale protection, invulnerable, optional FnP, bonus and reroll to hit and even self-resurrection.
You could drop them straight into a custodes army with no drawbacks, but at the end of the day they didn't even displace guard allies.
As they stand sisters of silence have nothing on them other than potentially (if they are made troops) allowing a custodes player to drop their own troop units. If beta SoB allies didn't break the custodes then the SoS have a long long way to go before they do.
It all depends on what assocaited buffs come with being part of Talons. I have to presume that Talons allows for merging of the Custodes buffs and strats onto SoS. Which isn't true for SoB.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I am sorry you so misconstrued my post. I'm simply saying for the cost, they would be one of the best, if not the best troops in the game. What other troop unit does what they do for 10 points?
Last year during the betadex period you would get 5 sisters with three stormbolters (which could be boosted to 2 damage AP -2 for a single CP) for 51 points, and each squad would get you a full two dice deny roll and a strategem for an extra 4+ deny if the first roll failed. Sporting their own morale protection, invulnerable, optional FnP, bonus and reroll to hit and even self-resurrection.
You could drop them straight into a custodes army with no drawbacks, but at the end of the day they didn't even displace guard allies.
As they stand sisters of silence have nothing on them other than potentially (if they are made troops) allowing a custodes player to drop their own troop units. If beta SoB allies didn't break the custodes then the SoS have a long long way to go before they do.
It all depends on what assocaited buffs come with being part of Talons. I have to presume that Talons allows for merging of the Custodes buffs and strats onto SoS. Which isn't true for SoB.
+1 Attack is basically useless on anyone but the sword Sisters.
5++ might be useful, if they don't have one normally, but considering you'll be mowing them down with small-arms that rarely hit AP-3, it won't matter much.
-1 on to-hits against them could be very useful, but it won't make them survivable ENOUGH to close in and make use of their anti-psyker aura.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: It all depends on what assocaited buffs come with being part of Talons. I have to presume that Talons allows for merging of the Custodes buffs and strats onto SoS. Which isn't true for SoB.
The beta SoB brought their own 5++ and could roll with +1 attack AND strength if they wanted (and yes both at the same time, and the 2d6 deny on top).
(disclaimer - should be noted none of this applies to the current SoB, but rather the SoB as they were during the beta when there was a long stretch of time and tournaments they could have been running alongside custodes)
If they are troops and if you want to run custodes without guardians or sagittarum then they'll bring you a few extra points but otherwise they are nothing the custodes didn't have a year ago with allies. And i'm not suggesting they are bad, just that the game didn't break when the custodes had it better.
So, again, there is no way of knowing what Talons will bring. They might get re-rolls on shooting towards characters, which makes the flamers pretty saucy. They might get increased Aura. They might get re-roll charges. There is literally no knowing. But in all honesty, if they simply became troops, it wouldn't be worth it, because you likely have to take the HQ tag team terrible, which would obliterate any points savings. Then again, if they get a semi-reasonable HQ unit, that isn't 300+ points, then who knows?
nordsturmking wrote: What kind of model or kit would Custodes need next? I thought of these:
some kind of long range anti tank on foot.
Smaller shooty flyer.
An HQ that is not another standard shield captain. Something with a spcial role.
I’d say the biggest gap in the army is out-of-LOS shooting, not even the FW units have it (though the spiculus on the Telemon looks like it should). The other gap is psychic defense, which Talons integration should fix.
Different generic or even special characters (appropriately written!) would be good, perhaps the heads of the various different sects within the AC, with some weird and wonderful relics for interesting rules.
I don't think they particularly need to have a unit filling every kind of military battlefield role like Marines for example, because they're not really military. Custodes are the big bulletproof dudes who run up and hit stuff really hard, a few buffs to allow them to do that better would suit me.
I'll point it out again, Custodes were designed with soup in mind back in the start of 8th, when they could be freely augmented to have all their glaring flaws fixed by soup. without much effort, Guard mortars backed up by primaris Pskers would fill two of out more glaring weaknesses. That being said, if we are sticking with the theme that everything in 8th must be mono-dex to be considered viable, everything good that we have is FW. Our best vehicles, our best naughts, our best infantry. I would like to see some form of Custodes Librarian/Chaplain, and a major overhaul of the land raider system, if not just an ability to paint a Impulsor Gold and call it "Venerable Impulsor".
Simple idea: There are multiple sects(?) of Custodes, why not open up the lore for Custodes with varying strats. Night watchers(?) Solar Watch (?) etc. Solar could have a negative to hit ability in overwatch. I forget what the other Chapters are, but then we also have the Custodes who leave the armor behind, and become spies/galactic travelers. I would love to see them get somehow incorporated as a unit. Slightly less perfect beings that are still basically custodes, but so old that they can no longer hold the line. Venerable Guardians essentially.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Or just make the Spears/Axes Assault 2 and the Sword Pistol 3 that can be used to advance and still shoot.
Yeah, that would be neat. Though the only things I want from war of the spider is some buffs to charges and some consistency to our melee weapon dmg. Oh yeah, and something like transhuman physiology, because marines and paladins being tougher than us is actual heresy....
Have you seen the leaked stuff the harlequins are going to get? I thought the murderclowns got shafted by being pushed into a white dwarf, but the stuff they get is really tasty. If we get similarly nice stuff, it'll give us a good boost. I'll keep my fingers crossed.
Oh, and I want some decent rules for valerian, the black library celebration rules for him and aleya are a joke.
Edit: Also I want some updated FW rules for my galatus and achillus so they become good. I know it won't happen in PA, but still....those models deserve better rules!
Has GW ever produced rule changes for FW models? I mean other than nerfs? It seems like would anyone be shocked if GW just forgot that we were in the pipe, and left us alone with our Talons mistake?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Has GW ever produced rule changes for FW models? I mean other than nerfs? It seems like would anyone be shocked if GW just forgot that we were in the pipe, and left us alone with our Talons mistake?
Well, no but FW will bring out new and updated indexes in book form for all their units some time this year if I'm not mistaken and I really hope for some updated rules for our 3 forgeworld dreads. And the venetari while we're at it, because the models are bitchin, but their rules and cost are rather lackluster.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Has GW ever produced rule changes for FW models? I mean other than nerfs? It seems like would anyone be shocked if GW just forgot that we were in the pipe, and left us alone with our Talons mistake?
Well, no but FW will bring out new and updated indexes in book form for all their units some time this year if I'm not mistaken and I really hope for some updated rules for our 3 forgeworld dreads. And the venetari while we're at it, because the models are bitchin, but their rules and cost are rather lackluster.
GW took over making FW rules. They made the current datasheet for the Custodes units.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Has GW ever produced rule changes for FW models? I mean other than nerfs? It seems like would anyone be shocked if GW just forgot that we were in the pipe, and left us alone with our Talons mistake?
Well, no but FW will bring out new and updated indexes in book form for all their units some time this year if I'm not mistaken and I really hope for some updated rules for our 3 forgeworld dreads. And the venetari while we're at it, because the models are bitchin, but their rules and cost are rather lackluster.
GW took over making FW rules. They made the current datasheet for the Custodes units.
Well then, here's even more hoping that they will update our three FW dreads.
While we're at, do you guys think that FW will expand their custodes line in the future even more or is that line done? I'd Personally like to see special hetaeron guard models.
I don’t know enough about the Heresy line (or Heresy fluff even) unfortunately, and that has been the source of all FW Custodes units. I do know that that are or at least were considered a somewhat OP army in that game, and if I had to speculate based on the other releases FW will probably keep churning out more specialist units for the legions. But who knows.
I'd love that, I'm not sure if it would be too strong though. T7 with a 2+, 3++ and 6+++ is extremely tanky.
I'd rather they give his sword two profiles: a piercing profile With S 2x, AP - 4 and flat 3 dmg And a slashing profile with S user, AP - 3, D 1 and when the bearer fights every attack in his profile counts as 2
This would be fitting I think for a dread that has no real ranged ability and is entirely focused on melee.
Also I want a stratagem for the galatus for...I don't know... 1-2 CP where he can shoot his flamer into melee.
It would be hotness if our contemptor was suddenly even close to worth it's points. Right now it's completely worthless. Unless you use it as a countas model for a Telemon.
So something that popped into my head last night while I was falling asleep (strange I know). As Custodes were designed with soup in mind when 8th was released, wouldnt the easiest thing be to give them a "servants of the emprah" ability which means they could soup in Imperial allies with no negatives. At least that way there would be access to the Loyal 32 or some Admech to help balance out the glaring weaknesses in the Custodes lineup.
Garrlor wrote: So something that popped into my head last night while I was falling asleep (strange I know). As Custodes were designed with soup in mind when 8th was released, wouldnt the easiest thing be to give them a "servants of the emprah" ability which means they could soup in Imperial allies with no negatives. At least that way there would be access to the Loyal 32 or some Admech to help balance out the glaring weaknesses in the Custodes lineup.
Right now, there ARE no negatives to souping. Neither AdMech, Astra Militarium, or Custodes themselves lose any benefits from having other faction’s detachments alongside them, and that is even after the PAAM update. In fact, the only armies that have to be 100% pure for special bonuses are Space Marine variants at this point. Also, IIRC the “Imperium can’t be a faction keyword” FAQ came out before the codex was released or extremely shortly thereafter, and Custodes enjoyed an extremely high monofaction win rate last summer (thanks FW!).
Point is, Custodes aren’t “designed with soup” any more or less than any other army. The reason their win-rates are down is the same every other army has also dropped: Iron Hands had a 70+% win rate in some cases with other Space Marine flavors dominating everyone except for a couple Tau and Eldar builds. We haven’t really seen the impact of the SMFAQ yet since Covid-19 happened about the same time it dropped.
They absolutely were designed with soup in mind. When they were developed for 8th, soup was clearly the way GW wanted their armies to go. They had done nothing to stop the trend, and even actively encouraged it. The first several released press about the Custodes featured them with SM, AM, and Ad-mech allies. To say GW didn't create armies in the start of 8th with Soup in mind is just a flat out misreading of the well established history of 8th. Also, their soupiness has nothing to do with win/loss rates, but just an argument as to their creation in 8th.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:They absolutely were designed with soup in mind. When they were developed for 8th, soup was clearly the way GW wanted their armies to go. They had done nothing to stop the trend, and even actively encouraged it. The first several released press about the Custodes featured them with SM, AM, and Ad-mech allies. To say GW didn't create armies in the start of 8th with Soup in mind is just a flat out misreading of the well established history of 8th. Also, their soupiness has nothing to do with win/loss rates, but just an argument as to their creation in 8th.
Garrlor wrote:So something that popped into my head last night while I was falling asleep (strange I know). As Custodes were designed with soup in mind when 8th was released, wouldnt the easiest thing be to give them a "servants of the emprah" ability which means they could soup in Imperial allies with no negatives. At least that way there would be access to the Loyal 32 or some Admech to help balance out the glaring weaknesses in the Custodes lineup.
I would just argue that factions should be designed to be able to stand on their own, at least I think that is the way they should be going with their faction development.
Now here is hoping that with our psychic awakening debut we will get some stuff to hold up better
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Except for the ever undying rumor that 9th will just wipe the slate clean, in which case why bother?
Well the argument I made still stands, 9th Ed or not. If they release 9th edition this year, I'd want them to design the factions to be able to stand on their own without requiring soup.
And let's remember, 9th Ed coming this year or coming at all for that matter it still just a rumor. Maybe we'll know more on Saturday, though I am more in favor of a juicy necron preview.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Except for the ever undying rumor that 9th will just wipe the slate clean, in which case why bother?
I hope so.
For an edition that was supposed to be 'streamlined', there's so much bloat and power creep already.
I'd love to see an end to the constant re-roll spam that armies chuck out nowadays, and for strategems to stop being such a huge deciding factor in games.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Except for the ever undying rumor that 9th will just wipe the slate clean, in which case why bother?
Why would they do a full rules reboot again that fast? There were decades between 2nd and 8th.
Can't tell if joking. The majority of editions have been between 3-5 years apart. Guess where 8th is? Also, almost every new Edition is heralded by the release of SoB about 6-10 months prior. Guess what dropped in late 2019.
They are trying to go to a "Living" rule set according to several insiders/influencers. But that being said, this is one undying field that needs to be divine smited back to the netherrealm of matt Ward's butt hole.
Marines are just barely less OP than they used to be, half the races/factions are flat garbage and don't even see competitive meta, and the majority of the top lists are heavy on the FW side, which means even from a financial stake, GW's investors, which are not the same as FW's investors, aren't making their money back. Oh, and the lore they are coming out with is utter trash. Godo level trash.
The Silent king is back, and oh wait, he created the Nid's, but only before he did that he created a planet sized death star and has been chasing them around the universe for the last 60k (?) years. And the rumors are, that Hive Fleets aren't trying to wipe out the galaxy, they are literally running from the Silent King. Because he knows something about how to end their existence.
I'm telling you, the sooner we end this horrific abomination of an edition we can get back to the good fluff, where Ad-Mech are traitors and heretics, and the only living primarch is also a anime fan race traitor.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Except for the ever undying rumor that 9th will just wipe the slate clean, in which case why bother?
Why would they do a full rules reboot again that fast? There were decades between 2nd and 8th.
Can't tell if joking. The majority of editions have been between 3-5 years apart. Guess where 8th is? Also, almost every new Edition is heralded by the release of SoB about 6-10 months prior. Guess what dropped in late 2019.
They are trying to go to a "Living" rule set according to several insiders/influencers. But that being said, this is one undying field that needs to be divine smited back to the netherrealm of matt Ward's butt hole.
Marines are just barely less OP than they used to be, half the races/factions are flat garbage and don't even see competitive meta, and the majority of the top lists are heavy on the FW side, which means even from a financial stake, GW's investors, which are not the same as FW's investors, aren't making their money back. Oh, and the lore they are coming out with is utter trash. Godo level trash.
The Silent king is back, and oh wait, he created the Nid's, but only before he did that he created a planet sized death star and has been chasing them around the universe for the last 60k (?) years. And the rumors are, that Hive Fleets aren't trying to wipe out the galaxy, they are literally running from the Silent King. Because he knows something about how to end their existence.
I'm telling you, the sooner we end this horrific abomination of an edition we can get back to the good fluff, where Ad-Mech are traitors and heretics, and the only living primarch is also a anime fan race traitor.
Please don't take this the wrong way, but in the posts and topics you seem passionate about, you tend towards hyperbole.
The recent lore is not goto level trash, there have been well written codices and books this edition, our own faction is a good example of that.
I don't know where you got the idea that the silent King created the tyranids, but that's nothing but a rumor at best.
Also many factions not seeing competitive meta might be true or has been true at some point, but you have to give it to gw that they at least tried to fix things more often this edition via FAQs and light faction updates like psychic awakening.
Though I'll grant you that the psychic awakening fluff has been very subpar at best.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Except for the ever undying rumor that 9th will just wipe the slate clean, in which case why bother?
Why would they do a full rules reboot again that fast? There were decades between 2nd and 8th.
Can't tell if joking. The majority of editions have been between 3-5 years apart. Guess where 8th is? Also, almost every new Edition is heralded by the release of SoB about 6-10 months prior. Guess what dropped in late 2019.
They are trying to go to a "Living" rule set according to several insiders/influencers. But that being said, this is one undying field that needs to be divine smited back to the netherrealm of matt Ward's butt hole.
Marines are just barely less OP than they used to be, half the races/factions are flat garbage and don't even see competitive meta, and the majority of the top lists are heavy on the FW side, which means even from a financial stake, GW's investors, which are not the same as FW's investors, aren't making their money back. Oh, and the lore they are coming out with is utter trash. Godo level trash.
The Silent king is back, and oh wait, he created the Nid's, but only before he did that he created a planet sized death star and has been chasing them around the universe for the last 60k (?) years. And the rumors are, that Hive Fleets aren't trying to wipe out the galaxy, they are literally running from the Silent King. Because he knows something about how to end their existence.
I'm telling you, the sooner we end this horrific abomination of an edition we can get back to the good fluff, where Ad-Mech are traitors and heretics, and the only living primarch is also a anime fan race traitor.
Please don't take this the wrong way, but in the posts and topics you seem passionate about, you tend towards hyperbole.
The recent lore is not goto level trash, there have been well written codices and books this edition, our own faction is a good example of that.
I don't know where you got the idea that the silent King created the tyranids, but that's nothing but a rumor at best.
Also many factions not seeing competitive meta might be true or has been true at some point, but you have to give it to gw that they at least tried to fix things more often this edition via FAQs and light faction updates like psychic awakening.
Though I'll grant you that the psychic awakening fluff has been very subpar at best.
No offense taken, it was very hyperbolic.
As for the Tyranids, in a recent White Dwarf lore bit (Cannon)
...there he bred horrors of infinite hunger. Finally pleased with their form, he showed the the shining light of the world and unleashed them upon it, where they moved from kingdom to kingdom, devouring everything." PRETTY SURE THAT's the nommy horde.
As for Goto Level trash, We have the lore writers behind DoW3, where a SM Captain in Terminator armor does literal foward flips. Granted this isn't lore per-se. However we have lore breaks aplenty. Leader of the Cogboys has been hoarding geneseed that even the Lords of Terra didn't know about, oh, and he has some of the original traitor legions geneseed on stock as well. So he basically is somehow as smart or smarter than the emperor, which is kinda heresy, and creates new SM legions. Somehow Rowboat violates his own father's edicts, and essentially conspires with heretics, xenos and using banned knowledge somehow is restored to life. Oh, and this whole time, Cadia, the symbol of Imperial Lawful/Good, has been using Necron Tech and working with Alderi witches.
I don't even want to get into the 40k for Kids lore.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Except for the ever undying rumor that 9th will just wipe the slate clean, in which case why bother?
Why would they do a full rules reboot again that fast? There were decades between 2nd and 8th.
Can't tell if joking. The majority of editions have been between 3-5 years apart. Guess where 8th is? Also, almost every new Edition is heralded by the release of SoB about 6-10 months prior. Guess what dropped in late 2019.
...No, I said full rules reboot. The only times that's happened are 2nd, 3rd and 8th. 3rd through 7th was one continuous evolving ruleset.
9th is completely unlikely to wipe the slate clean, it's far more likely to be a minor update like most editions are.
Hey uh feel like I'm breaching a very heated topic atm, but anyway
Got a telemon, because cool. Its one of the only large models I've ever painted that I'm actually happy with- I stuck about 100 purity seals all over it hehe.
What's the best way to use it in an army? Ive got both sets of the arachnus guns, and the fists, fully magnetised.
ps maybe bring the discussion back to custodes lol
Got a telemon, because cool. Its one of the only large models I've ever painted that I'm actually happy with- I stuck about 100 purity seals all over it hehe.
What's the best way to use it in an army? Ive got both sets of the arachnus guns, and the fists, fully magnetised.
ps maybe bring the discussion back to custodes lol
Arachnus guns are great, best overall choice I think.
I take at least one of my Telemons in about 2/3rds of my games. Thinking back, I always do well and win handily when my opponent focusses on killing it/them. I'm still convinced that 14 wounds of T8 2+ 4++ 6+++ for under 300 points is a steal. The tricky part of course is getting the idea that it needs to die into your opponents head. I'll take either dual guns or a gun and a fist usually. Dual fists is a bit of a waste imo (unfortunate because they look great like this).
Set it up front and center with as flashy a paint scheme as you can muster, and use plenty of imaginative description when you place him, being sure to explain his offensive capability in as dramatic a way as possible, especially the damage 4 fist.
The fisto Roboto is a great distraction Carnifex. Theory wise, our Telemon is one of our best, if not the best unit. They are practically auto include now.
I am getting increasingly nervous. As time marches on, we have yet to hear a single, solitary detail about anything in War of the Spider about the Custodes getting some help/some love.
If we get only lip service changes, the army is pretty much toast til 9th ed.
Regarding Telemons. I have several lists running 2. They were a bucket better before they got nerfed into the ground, but they are still rock solid. Sticking one of them next to a vexilla magnifica makes them absurdly hard to shift. I usually run one twin arachnus, and the other with an arachnus and a fist, sometimes out of deep strike, other times hoofing it behind bikes.
So, did Telemon's get exempted from the Codex stratagems? Can you still FGLTC 2 Telemons and give them re-roll ones? Or do they not get that as FW?
Also, I would LOVE to know who the "Ancient" Custodes are that are piloting the Naughts. Because when a Custodes gets too old, they go off and do that "travel the galaxy" self banishment thing. So if they get even OLDER, they become Dreadnaughts? How does a Custodes even make it to Dreadnaught phase?
They haven't been out battling anything like actually strong enough to pose much of a threat of Terra, so when does a Custodes suffer enough damage to get interred into a Dreadnaught? I assume it's more age than anything, hence why would they get interred if they get banished, etc?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, did Telemon's get exempted from the Codex stratagems? Can you still FGLTC 2 Telemons and give them re-roll ones? Or do they not get that as FW?
Telemons have the Custodes and Dreadnought keywords, making them legal targets for FGLtC and Wisdom of the Ancients. There is no errata that changes this.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, did Telemon's get exempted from the Codex stratagems? Can you still FGLTC 2 Telemons and give them re-roll ones? Or do they not get that as FW?
Also, I would LOVE to know who the "Ancient" Custodes are that are piloting the Naughts. Because when a Custodes gets too old, they go off and do that "travel the galaxy" self banishment thing. So if they get even OLDER, they become Dreadnaughts? How does a Custodes even make it to Dreadnaught phase?
They haven't been out battling anything like actually strong enough to pose much of a threat of Terra, so when does a Custodes suffer enough damage to get interred into a Dreadnaught? I assume it's more age than anything, hence why would they get interred if they get banished, etc?
Telemons are not exempt from codex stratagems as far as I know.
Custodes get interred into dreads when they are too greviously wounded. And as you well know they face and have faced a lot more threats than stuff on Terra in the last couple thousand years.
They become eyes of the emperor when they are physically fine generally, but become ever so slightly slower than before, therefore not meeting their high standards.
Someone please pick up that phone. BECAUSE I and about 7000 others, CALLED IT.
Reason why this sucks. I am currently paying a patreon 60/month to send me interesting and new models, and now that has to stop, because I bet Custodes WONT be one of the first revealed factions. Meaning we can't play them until they are, which means they are worthless.
quick correction, we can "still" play, according to the release, but all the core rules have changed, and points will change, also everything FW is getting a re-do apparently. So kiss half the Custodes army goodbye.
If CP starts at a fixed amount instead of being generated buy detachments, I’d think Custodes and Knights will be the Factions that are the biggest beneficiaries of such a change.
in theory but both of those factions soup for other reasons than cp such as objective holding. You really need full details of the new system to make an assessment
So did anyone see the new Exploding weapon rules? Did the Baneblade just become the single best anti-infrantry weapon in the game? I have toi believe this will do amazing things for the Terminator Grenade launchers too!
nordsturmking wrote: Since custodes are on of the worst factions in 40k it can only get better ^^ and they specifically addressed custodes have problems generating CP.
Getting CP based on the points level, and not needing CP to soup in the things we need anymore will be massive boon for Custodes. Can't wait.
quick correction, we can "still" play, according to the release, but all the core rules have changed, and points will change, also everything FW is getting a re-do apparently. So kiss half the Custodes army goodbye.
Custodians gets more CP as pure. Not bad. How core rules change is hard to say how it affects. Terrain helps elite units generally more in 8th ed so if terrain gets even more detailed odds are good it could help elite more than horde. Points changing...How that's bad? You are already declaring custodians get relatively higher % increase than rest of factions? Rather than even point drop? Where's the source for such a claim?
They said FW will be getting points changes. What have you seen of the last few FW points changes that Custodes have gotten? Terminators up, tanks up, Dreads up. If they decide the new rules make FW units too powerful, it stands to simple reason they would nerf them. Unfortunatly, Custodes are a faction now where more than 50% of our playable units don't come from Codex. Especially if they make Talons a thing, and SoS become troops. We'd be depending on a white dwarf article for basis. That will obviously get changed, as no one has quick and easy access to that specific issue.
If CP are no longer tied to formations, then Talons making SoS troops is useless anyway.
Finally, if the exploding weapons rumors ruleset is true and to be believed, you best believe any and every tank in the game with a cannon is getting a re-do.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: They said FW will be getting points changes. What have you seen of the last few FW points changes that Custodes have gotten? Terminators up, tanks up, Dreads up. If they decide the new rules make FW units too powerful, it stands to simple reason they would nerf them. Unfortunatly, Custodes are a faction now where more than 50% of our playable units don't come from Codex. Especially if they make Talons a thing, and SoS become troops. We'd be depending on a white dwarf article for basis. That will obviously get changed, as no one has quick and easy access to that specific issue.
If CP are no longer tied to formations, then Talons making SoS troops is useless anyway.
Finally, if the exploding weapons rumors ruleset is true and to be believed, you best believe any and every tank in the game with a cannon is getting a re-do.
Custodes don't even have any tanks with a random number of hits...
This thread is about discussing tactics, if you want to moan about your imaginary future balance changes I would suggest you go to the News & Rumors section or something. Maybe you can pay your patreon to listen.
Not happy to hear the mortal wounds are unchanged. Hurts us a lot, and it feels like such a stupid mechanic to begin with, especially when it's spammed.
Also still a bit wary about what's going to be the situation with our PA, considering 9th is right around the corner.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: They said FW will be getting points changes. What have you seen of the last few FW points changes that Custodes have gotten? Terminators up, tanks up, Dreads up. If they decide the new rules make FW units too powerful, it stands to simple reason they would nerf them. Unfortunatly, Custodes are a faction now where more than 50% of our playable units don't come from Codex. Especially if they make Talons a thing, and SoS become troops. We'd be depending on a white dwarf article for basis. That will obviously get changed, as no one has quick and easy access to that specific issue.
If CP are no longer tied to formations, then Talons making SoS troops is useless anyway.
Finally, if the exploding weapons rumors ruleset is true and to be believed, you best believe any and every tank in the game with a cannon is getting a re-do.
Custodes gets rules in war of spider don't they? No need for wd(which would be reprinted elsewhere anyway)
Points are changing anyway for all likely. Not just fw.
Troops won't be useless.
Exploding cannon thing is specific weapons. Not every weapon. Rulebook will have specific list of weapons.
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nemesis464 wrote: Not happy to hear the mortal wounds are unchanged. Hurts us a lot, and it feels like such a stupid mechanic to begin with, especially when it's spammed.
Also still a bit wary about what's going to be the situation with our PA, considering 9th is right around the corner.
It's going to remain legal. Unless custodians are early to get codex not much to worry there.
I'm really excited about the explosive weapons rules. Terminators just became worth their points if they get max hits on their launchers. Anyone wanna guess what constitutes a "Horde"?
So with the new Explosive Weapons rules, does that mean Psych out grenades now auto-hit 3 times? What constitutes a "Horde"? I hope it's more than 5 models, otherwise Krak grenades and Guardsmen Grenade launchers just became the new Cheese.Forget about Thunder Cannons, take a look at max hitting Earth Shakers or jesus, manticores and Wyverns. Automatically 24 shots per round,
Seriously, who was looking at 8th and said, "You know what is really hurting this edition? Shooting!"
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So with the new Explosive Weapons rules, does that mean Psych out grenades now auto-hit 3 times? What constitutes a "Horde"? I hope it's more than 5 models, otherwise Krak grenades and Guardsmen Grenade launchers just became the new Cheese.Forget about Thunder Cannons, take a look at max hitting Earth Shakers or jesus, manticores and Wyverns. Automatically 24 shots per round,
Seriously, who was looking at 8th and said, "You know what is really hurting this edition? Shooting!"
More than 5?
I'm hoping for 11+ at a MINIMUM. A Squad of 10 Marines or Guardsmen is not a horde, nor is a min squad of Lesser Daemons.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So with the new Explosive Weapons rules, does that mean Psych out grenades now auto-hit 3 times? What constitutes a "Horde"? I hope it's more than 5 models, otherwise Krak grenades and Guardsmen Grenade launchers just became the new Cheese.Forget about Thunder Cannons, take a look at max hitting Earth Shakers or jesus, manticores and Wyverns. Automatically 24 shots per round,
Seriously, who was looking at 8th and said, "You know what is really hurting this edition? Shooting!"
More than 5?
I'm hoping for 11+ at a MINIMUM. A Squad of 10 Marines or Guardsmen is not a horde, nor is a min squad of Lesser Daemons.
That makes fair, what at that size, unless they aren't autohits, wouldn't it get slightly broken if a grenade launcher on a lowly guardsman took out half a "horde" in one round of shooting? Hell, a stormshard battery could eliminate twice it's cost in points per turn, which makes zero sense.
The picture accompanying that announcement showed a battle cannon, and mentioned adding keywords to certain weapons. I don’t think grenade launchers or even wyvrens will get it.
The specific words they used were "Explosive Weapons" and "hordes". It might jut be tank weapons, but even then, why do we need better shooting? Was that really what people were saying? I can't shoot armies off the table with 3 Baneblades?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: The specific words they used were "Explosive Weapons" and "hordes". It might jut be tank weapons, but even then, why do we need better shooting? Was that really what people were saying? I can't shoot armies off the table with 3 Baneblades?
'Big weapons that go BANG are EVEN BETTER at going BANG!!!'probably sells more models to their increasingly younger target audience than buffing melee does.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: The specific words they used were "Explosive Weapons" and "hordes". It might jut be tank weapons, but even then, why do we need better shooting? Was that really what people were saying? I can't shoot armies off the table with 3 Baneblades?
'Big weapons that go BANG are EVEN BETTER at going BANG!!!'probably sells more models to their increasingly younger target audience than buffing melee does.
.
I'm not going to lie, that is likely the most logical and insightful thing I've ever read on the explanation of their decision making process.
Well the mods said that 1) There will be no more mega-threads and 2) that the transition will happen once 9th drops (which would necessitate a new thread anyway). So, no we are not keeping it (unless the mods change their minds) but it will be open until 9th edition is released.
I have zero motivation to remain on Dakkadakka if the mega threads go. They're the only game-centric discussion worth browsing on the site. Make sure you've made yourselves heard if you appreciate these threads as much as I do.
It was in General Discussion. With 9th, they want Tactics threads to focus on specific questions rather than be megathreads. I think it's an O.K. change since it IS hard to search for things if you miss a few pages.
It was in General Discussion. With 9th, they want Tactics threads to focus on specific questions rather than be megathreads. I think it's an O.K. change since it IS hard to search for things if you miss a few pages.
Hmm not the biggest fan of that actually- is there going to be a suitable replacement to the megathreads for people who want to casually discuss Custodes but without sole focus on tactics question?
It was in General Discussion. With 9th, they want Tactics threads to focus on specific questions rather than be megathreads. I think it's an O.K. change since it IS hard to search for things if you miss a few pages.
Hmm not the biggest fan of that actually- is there going to be a suitable replacement to the megathreads for people who want to casually discuss Custodes but without sole focus on tactics question?
So honest question, if the exploding weapons rules do affect non tank weapons, would anyone give a second look at 3 extra shots of S4 AP3 D1 from their Allarus? Does that make then suddenly worth the points? Granted they are still assault 18" I believe, but even that can do some pretty serious mob munching now.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So honest question, if the exploding weapons rules do affect non tank weapons, would anyone give a second look at 3 extra shots of S4 AP3 D1 from their Allarus? Does that make then suddenly worth the points? Granted they are still assault 18" I believe, but even that can do some pretty serious mob munching now.
On D3 shots they already average 2, so you're only 'gaining' one shot per model. Doesn't seem like like much to get excited about to me.
Look at Firepike Aquilon terminators by comparison. They go from average 3.5 shots to 6, which is a bit more significant for mob mulching.
Except one is AP3 and one is AP 0. Also one is assault, and one is heavy, not that it matters being a fire weapon, but they don't get max hits being a fire weapon, the launcher does. I will take 9 extra shots of S4 AP3 D1 character targeting over the firepikes random number of shots that can't target characters or be fired after advancing.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Except one is AP3 and one is AP 0. Also one is assault, and one is heavy, not that it matters being a fire weapon, but they don't get max hits being a fire weapon, the launcher does. I will take 9 extra shots of S4 AP3 D1 character targeting over the firepikes random number of shots that can't target characters or be fired after advancing.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Except one is AP3 and one is AP 0. Also one is assault, and one is heavy, not that it matters being a fire weapon, but they don't get max hits being a fire weapon, the launcher does. I will take 9 extra shots of S4 AP3 D1 character targeting over the firepikes random number of shots that can't target characters or be fired after advancing.
Firepikes are ap 1 and strength 6.
Also, what is simultaneously a Character (to be targeted) AND a horde?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Except one is AP3 and one is AP 0. Also one is assault, and one is heavy, not that it matters being a fire weapon, but they don't get max hits being a fire weapon, the launcher does. I will take 9 extra shots of S4 AP3 D1 character targeting over the firepikes random number of shots that can't target characters or be fired after advancing.
Flamers could easily get the max shots. We don't know what weapons are blast. We do know it will be by the weapon. Not generic "all random shot weapons"
Just curious, how many CPs did you guys normally run in a 2000pt game (with or without souping)
Having 12 automatically regardless of army compensation feels like a big burden has been taken off my shoulders, although I’ve seen lots of complaints for IG players for example who ran over quadruple this number.
nemesis464 wrote: Just curious, how many CPs did you guys normally run in a 2000pt game (with or without souping)
Having 12 automatically regardless of army compensation feels like a big burden has been taken off my shoulders, although I’ve seen lots of complaints for IG players for example who ran over quadruple this number.
I ran 5 plus Trajann in my tournament list. In my casual lists i go with 8 plus maybe Trajann.
I am looking forward to having 15+ CP. Really pump for the new edition and War of the Spider. I a bit consered that troopswill be played a lot less. The new Action thing they previewed could be a reason to take cheap troops but.
12+5+D3 = 18-20 CPs if taking Trajann who is likely back to his original 250 price tag.
That lets us use stooping dive or Vexilla homer without blowing our load. We can tanglefoot twice a turn with complete freedom and who knows what the new strats are... Exciting stuff.
I’d likely go with a battalion of 2 min shields and 1 spear bomb. Then either Allarus or bikes. Trajann & bike SC and a vexilla.
A patrol is another attractive options so we can just take 1 HQ and 2 troops but still get the 2 elites.
So far 9th is shaping up nicely imo. Could be we just use a few min squads of sisters to perform actions while our golden boys go smash heads.
Yeah I was running outrider+spearhead a lot, so starting with anything more than 5 is a win. If we get sisters as troops a single battalion will probably be a go-to, and even if not the action system makes regular guard more interesting.
I’m also scared/hopeful for the points changes, if we get a relative points rebalance compared to other factions then that could be a buff or nerf.
I think if you only want 2 elite or 2 fast attack then the patrol is great (proving you get it for net free). I think I’ll still be going for the battalion as I’ll want 2 units of guards and then maybe a unit or two of cheap sisters to complete objectives. No point bringing expensive models if they can’t fight or shoot.
I’m seriously eyeing up my Telemon. If it can shoot in melee (big if) then two flamer fists and FGLTC sounds great. I’d never do that in 8th because it was ineffective against chaff and it was too many CPs if I wanted to bring Wardens, Allarus, or spear blob... but now it sounds pretty fun.
So I'm REALLY thinking about starting up a Custodes force when the new PA drops, and I was curious about what you veteran janitorial players thought was likely to be included for them in that new book.
I was also curious what you would really LIKE to see from the new PA...
So I'm REALLY thinking about starting up a Custodes force when the new PA drops, and I was curious about what you veteran janitorial players thought was likely to be included for them in that new book.
I was also curious what you would really LIKE to see from the new PA...
I am fairly sure sisters of silence will be folded in to and included with custodes.
Other than that, it is pretty much a mystery. There's no way to tell. There's no one theme in PA, some armies got a lot of buffs and benefits, some just got shafted, and there's no way to tell until they start dropping previews.
Hopefully June is the preview/release month for “War of the Spider” since Engine War is out and Pariah and 9th Edition are supposedly end of July (no one really knows but that’s my local gossip)
So I'm REALLY thinking about starting up a Custodes force when the new PA drops, and I was curious about what you veteran janitorial players thought was likely to be included for them in that new book.
I was also curious what you would really LIKE to see from the new PA...
I wrote out a more lengthy reply to your post on a phone and then accidently swipe refreshed and it was gone.
So in shorter form, what we know from GW, and what I expect based on previous PA books:
Basically confirmed by GW:
- Custodes and Sisters of Silence receiving some mechanism to combine their forces into a legal, battleforged detachment, possibly via a TALONS OF THE EMPEROR keyword.
- Rules for Valerian and Aleya models, hopefully not just a reprint of the original rules which were sent out with them which are bad and non-functional.
Highly likely (in my opinion) based on previous PA books:
-New stratagems
-New relics and WL traits
Less likely (in my opinion) based on previous PA books:
-Faction applicable buffs for being a pure army à la SM combat doctrines
-Roll-your-own sub faction rules
-Unit specific options added (like Eldar Exarch powers)
A lot of people are expecting to see a doctrine like bonus to help with how apparently Custodes are struggling on the tabletop (not my experience but hey...). While it would be nice, I don't see it happening really. The only factions who got it were SM factions who didn't get their equivalent doctrines in the updated SM codex version 2. Namely Grey Knights, Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Black Templars. Everyone else has just had some other form of faction type rule like the roll-your-own systems of Eldar, Dark Eldar, Imperial Guard etc which were cool but not blatant buffs. The Talons of the Emperor will be 'the faction thing' Custodes get. There is a slight chance GW could do something with the sects within the Adeptus Custodes, but unlikely I think.
As far as what I'd like to see, some cool new stratagems to make use of all the upcoming 9th edition CP would be good. Im hoping for at least one defensive stratagem for infantry units, something like Transhuman Physiology which would really help my Warden-star. Also more strats that play off the subterfuge aspect of the Eyes of the emperor(would an 'Agents of Vect' equivalent be too much to ask??).
JNAProductions wrote: CSM didn't get any doctrines or similar. The heck you talking about?
Really? My Tsons player friend has mislead me then. I haven't played 'regular' CSM since the PA books. Ill remove that.
Exactly my point though, if you're not Marines, don't expect doctrines.
TSons got cults, but they're not like Doctrines. I don't play TSons myself, so I can't validate exactly what they are, but if that's what he's talking about, then he's been on the up and up.
JNAProductions wrote: CSM didn't get any doctrines or similar. The heck you talking about?
Really? My Tsons player friend has mislead me then. I haven't played 'regular' CSM since the PA books. Ill remove that.
Exactly my point though, if you're not Marines, don't expect doctrines.
TSons got cults, but they're not like Doctrines. I don't play TSons myself, so I can't validate exactly what they are, but if that's what he's talking about, then he's been on the up and up.
Yeah the Tsons cults are just Psychic powers, WL traits and Relics. He seemed to think that the vanilla legions got some new rules equivalent to doctrines though, evidently not the case as you said.
So with the new shooting into combat and Heavy weapons rules, it looks like the Telemon is back on the menu? Can shoot into combat now with a penalty and can move and shoot freely now is huge. Could also make a hybrid option with one storm cannon and caestus viable now? I can also see Agamatus bikes benefiting from these changes as well.
Mr. Funktastic wrote: So with the new shooting into combat and Heavy weapons rules, it looks like the Telemon is back on the menu? Can shoot into combat now with a penalty and can move and shoot freely now is huge. Could also make a hybrid option with one storm cannon and caestus viable now? I can also see Agamatus bikes benefiting from these changes as well.
I didn’t even know this was a thing to be honest, where are you finding these new rules?
Great news though- I’ve got 2 hybrid Telemon and they felt so torn between 2 roles before.
Is the heavy weapons that all random dice equal max hits? Because that is a massive let down. We don't have much in the way of random shot heavy weapons. The Plasma Flamers are nice for anti hordem but that telemon will get nuked on the first turn, Also, given GW's threat to re-do all FW model rules, I doubt you will see this thing survive it's current state in 8th into 9th. 24 S7 AP3 autohitting shots? Yeah, call me crazy but I don't see that making the cut.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I doubt you will see this thing survive it's current state in 8th into 9th. 24 S7 AP3 autohitting shots? Yeah, call me crazy but I don't see that making the cut.
Am I missing something? Isn’t it just 12 S6 AP2 shots (+the bolt launcher)?
The 2x plasma projector only spit out 6 each (2xD3) because they’re not actually twin linked.
We also have no idea on what weapons will get the Blast keyword. That hasn’t been released yet. Today’s info was just in regards to tanks shooting in combat, and helping everyone see the light on my precious Agamatus bikes by revealing that the -1 to hit penalty for moving and shooting with heavy weapons only applies to infantry.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I doubt you will see this thing survive it's current state in 8th into 9th. 24 S7 AP3 autohitting shots? Yeah, call me crazy but I don't see that making the cut.
Am I missing something? Isn’t it just 12 S6 AP2 shots (+the bolt launcher)?
The 2x plasma projector only spit out 6 each (2xD3) because they’re not actually twin linked.
Thats my feth up, I was looking at the pre nerf stats of 2d6 shots of S7 AP 3. Still, 12 auto-hitting S6 AP2 it either overkill for trash hordes, or underwhelming for it's real purpose, Big target hunting. Besides, the guy above is right. It's pointless to say something is or isn't going to be awesome. Telemons are getting a rules review per GW, as are all FW. Other than Telemons, we don't have any random shot heavy weapons so this is a fairly pointless tactic for us.
My question is what is the definition of "horde". I would hope it's more than 10, but even that does nothing for us. Thank god I never assembled that Lehman Russ. Punisher tanks with flamers backing up lines of bikes or Telemons. Welcome back to Dakkahammer 40k.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I doubt you will see this thing survive it's current state in 8th into 9th. 24 S7 AP3 autohitting shots? Yeah, call me crazy but I don't see that making the cut.
Am I missing something? Isn’t it just 12 S6 AP2 shots (+the bolt launcher)?
The 2x plasma projector only spit out 6 each (2xD3) because they’re not actually twin linked.
Thats my feth up, I was looking at the pre nerf stats of 2d6 shots of S7 AP 3. Still, 12 auto-hitting S6 AP2 it either overkill for trash hordes, or underwhelming for it's real purpose, Big target hunting. Besides, the guy above is right. It's pointless to say something is or isn't going to be awesome. Telemons are getting a rules review per GW, as are all FW. Other than Telemons, we don't have any random shot heavy weapons so this is a fairly pointless tactic for us.
My question is what is the definition of "horde". I would hope it's more than 10, but even that does nothing for us. Thank god I never assembled that Lehman Russ. Punisher tanks with flamers backing up lines of bikes or Telemons. Welcome back to Dakkahammer 40k.
In terms of the upcoming "blast" weapon rule, it may or may not be useful for the Telemon, we just don't know enough about it yet. The thing to get excited about now is the fact that Dreadnoughts and vehicles like the Telemon can now move and shoot its heavy weapons without penalty and even if it gets tied up in combat it can pretty easily get itself out of it especially if it goes with a hybrid loadout.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Is the heavy weapons that all random dice equal max hits? Because that is a massive let down. We don't have much in the way of random shot heavy weapons. The Plasma Flamers are nice for anti hordem but that telemon will get nuked on the first turn, Also, given GW's threat to re-do all FW model rules, I doubt you will see this thing survive it's current state in 8th into 9th. 24 S7 AP3 autohitting shots? Yeah, call me crazy but I don't see that making the cut.
We can safely tell it's not blanket random shots is blast. For starter rulebook will have appendix telling by weapon which has blast. Not needed if it's blanket. Also blast can't be used in melee and heavy flamers were called out as nasty for vehicles in melee
There's whole bunch of factions covered. All factions will get preview before saturday. Same as every PA book
Fair enough, just seemed like quite a squeeze to fit Custodes, SoS and Assassins all into 2 days, considering Chaos have had a full 3 days of previews now.
There's whole bunch of factions covered. All factions will get preview before saturday. Same as every PA book
Fair enough, just seemed like quite a squeeze to fit Custodes, SoS and Assassins all into 2 days, considering Chaos have had a full 3 days of previews now.
Each PA book has had one faction get the lion share of the upgrades. In this case, it appears to be Death Guard.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Is the heavy weapons that all random dice equal max hits? Because that is a massive let down. We don't have much in the way of random shot heavy weapons. The Plasma Flamers are nice for anti hordem but that telemon will get nuked on the first turn, Also, given GW's threat to re-do all FW model rules, I doubt you will see this thing survive it's current state in 8th into 9th. 24 S7 AP3 autohitting shots? Yeah, call me crazy but I don't see that making the cut.
We can safely tell it's not blanket random shots is blast. For starter rulebook will have appendix telling by weapon which has blast. Not needed if it's blanket. Also blast can't be used in melee and heavy flamers were called out as nasty for vehicles in melee
So Punishers with 3 heavy flamers is what 350ish points, jesus. That is disgusting for charging hordes now.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Is the heavy weapons that all random dice equal max hits? Because that is a massive let down. We don't have much in the way of random shot heavy weapons. The Plasma Flamers are nice for anti hordem but that telemon will get nuked on the first turn, Also, given GW's threat to re-do all FW model rules, I doubt you will see this thing survive it's current state in 8th into 9th. 24 S7 AP3 autohitting shots? Yeah, call me crazy but I don't see that making the cut.
We can safely tell it's not blanket random shots is blast. For starter rulebook will have appendix telling by weapon which has blast. Not needed if it's blanket. Also blast can't be used in melee and heavy flamers were called out as nasty for vehicles in melee
So Punishers with 3 heavy flamers is what 350ish points, jesus. That is disgusting for charging hordes now.
Where do you get the number 350 from? A Punisher with 3 heavy flamers is 179p ATM and with the 20 percent point increase in 9th it will be 200ish
One would hope it's more than 20% for that sort of seeing the things it is killing are getting more than 20%...Then again GW isn't being subtle in pricing so having hordes suffering nerfs AND getting higher than average point increase % fits the bill
From the Twitch stream:
Shield Hosts will get warlord trait and relic's and strat's.
Dreadnoughts can become characters.
Chapter-master like upgrade strat for Shield-captains to make them shield-captain -commander with different ability's.
SoS can be in a detachment with Custodes. The detachment will still be a Custodes detachment it works like incubi in a drukhari detachment
And lots of new strats. One of them lets a unit make heroic intervention.
assassin rules will also be in war of the spider and will be updated. But no details on those. Guess we already new that
That Lockwarden Warlord Trait paired with Victor of the Blood games could make for a very interesting Dawneagle Jetbike Captain to assassinate enemy characters.
Considering the trait, that means most HQs only get a 5+ invuln save. If they don't have an invuln, anything but 2+ armor, has no save at all......now if only we could get past those stupid d3 damage rolls.
SoS can be in a detachment with Custodes. The detachment will still be a Custodes detachment it works like incubi in a drukhari detachment
Drukhari Obsession are like chapters or shield-host
From the codex:
BLADES FOR HIRE DRUKHARI BEASTS, INCUBI, Mandrakes and Scourges units can be included in a Drukhari Detachment without preventing other units in that Detachment from gaining a Drukhari Obsession. Note, however, that these units listed can never themselves benefit from a Drukhari Obsession.
So that means SoS can be in a Custodes detachment without negatively affecting the Custodes. but the SoS don't get the inv. save
I didn't see any mention of Shield Hosts getting chapter tactics equivalent rules. Did they mention if they would get anything like that on the stream or just specific relics, WLTs, and stratagem?
I think a big winner for the "Superior Fire Patterns" stratagem is going to be Aquilon Terminators. Their storm bolters are rapid fire weapons, which will go from Rapid Fire 2, to Rapid Fire 4, giving you a whopping 8 str 5 AP-1 shots per model out of deep strike.
I hope there’s a lot more to come, felt a bit underwhelming.
Our already-top-tier bike captain became stronger and there’s a good shooting stratagem for a small handful of units, but no sign of the army-wide rules we badly need.
nemesis464 wrote: I hope there’s a lot more to come, felt a bit underwhelming.
Our already-top-tier bike captain became stronger and there’s a good shooting stratagem for a small handful of units, but no sign of the army-wide rules we badly need.
all points will change so that could help us. And they said the will be Shield Host and i think there will be sub faction rules for those.
Well I'm rather suspicious about the shield host rules. The article says there will be a (as in singular) stratagem, relic and warlord trait.
No mention of a shield host specific trait that applies to all units who belong to said shield host....
To me the stuff revealed so far seems...fine I guess? Making our characters better at killing stuff and/or more durable won't fix our most glaring issues.
But hey, we haven't seen everything so maybe I'm suspicous about the whole thing for no reason.
I really hope we get an advance and charge stratagem for our units though.
Edit: I meant of course a singular strat, relic and warlord trait per shield host
I don't think they have ever listed new things in a preview but omitted a huge arny-changing feature without a hint. I could be wrong, but when they say Shield Hosts unlock a strat, relic, and warlord trait, I believe they mean just that. It's the same as Thousand Sons, who can choose from 9 different cults, none of which unlock any army-wide benefits :( Still, I'm stoked to see the rest of what we gain
My main hope is that the FW units are brought into line with the GW models. Some of the FW units are pretty overcosted (Venatari), and are overall lacking compared to what you pay for them. The Strats are nice, and I doubt we'll see a full re-boot of the datasheets, but here's what I'd like to see.
- Better ranged output from standard Custodes
- Change the DS Strat to "1CP per unit" instead of "1/3CP for 1/2 units".
- Access to better re-rolls, particularly wounds.
Valkyrie wrote: My main hope is that the FW units are brought into line with the GW models. Some of the FW units are pretty overcosted (Venatari), and are overall lacking compared to what you pay for them. The Strats are nice, and I doubt we'll see a full re-boot of the datasheets, but here's what I'd like to see.
- Better ranged output from standard Custodes
- Change the DS Strat to "1CP per unit" instead of "1/3CP for 1/2 units".
- Access to better re-rolls, particularly wounds.
If my Galatus, Achillus and Venatari get better rules I'd be really, really happy. I'm skeptical though to be honest.
I agree with your points in general, though I feel what we need most of all is help charging. Advancing and charging (via a stratagem for example), and something to make charges from deepstrike more consistent. Those I feel would be the most important points.
All things aside the lockwarden warlord trait is really cool I think. I'm a bit doubtful that it is going to be worth it, but reducing the armor save as well as invuln save of enemy characters is really badass.
I think the sister’s strat is probably one of the big winners...note that it’s after any denies. Having a way to shut down psychic stuff is going to help a lot. But I think the most useful preview is the heroic intervention for one CP. We already have the warlord trait, but being able to use it on any Custodes unit anywhere is a nice thing to have in your back pocket.
How do you read this strat? For one CP you basicly ignore everything except for LOS
Spoiler:
now that i have watched the preview another time and read everything again, i think will not get SM chapter like subfaction rules for the Shield Hosts :(
I am not native english speaker and in the twitch preview at 25:05 wade talk's about something with a WL trait and something about "adds to the attacks of the dread... reroll charge.." can anyone figure out waht he is saying? Thanks
Assuming you can make a Telemon dreadnought a character as has been reported, you could give him the Lockwarden trait. It applies to ranged attacks as well, so if there's anything targetable with the character keyword he could blow it to smithereens with -1 invuln dakka.
Superior Fire Patterns looks disgusting. Guess who's 3 boxes of unpainted bikes just became very relevant. Bikes now shoot possibly up to 24 shots each. For a squad of 3 thats 72 shots per shooting phase. Add in 2-4 more bikes in that unit, and thats a dead horde. Sisters are slightly less worthless than they were. Sword maidens are still hot garbage, bolter variants are cheap backfield objective campers, and the Witchseekers are not slightly less garbage where you need to waste a CP to get 4-6 shots per model. So from average 15 up to 19 hits, for 1 CP or 2 if the unit is over 6 models. Worthless. Still, I think the Caladus Tanks are going to be hot, and the bikes are back on top again. Can you give them the +2 attack ability or is that only the non-bike SC?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Superior Fire Patterns looks disgusting. Guess who's 3 boxes of unpainted bikes just became very relevant. Bikes now shoot possibly up to 24 shots each. For a squad of 3 thats 72 shots per shooting phase. Add in 2-4 more bikes in that unit, and thats a dead horde. Sisters are slightly less worthless than they were. Sword maidens are still hot garbage, bolter variants are cheap backfield objective campers, and the Witchseekers are not slightly less garbage where you need to waste a CP to get 4-6 shots per model. So from average 15 up to 19 hits, for 1 CP or 2 if the unit is over 6 models. Worthless. Still, I think the Caladus Tanks are going to be hot, and the bikes are back on top again. Can you give them the +2 attack ability or is that only the non-bike SC?
It's only useful for aquillons with their special storm bolters.
nordsturmking wrote: How do you read this strat? For one CP you basicly ignore everything except for LOS
Spoiler:
now that i have watched the preview another time and read everything again, i think will not get SM chapter like subfaction rules for the Shield Hosts :(
I am not native english speaker and in the twitch preview at 25:05 wade talk's about something with a WL trait and something about "adds to the attacks of the dread... reroll charge.." can anyone figure out waht he is saying? Thanks
Does it ignore "cannot be wounded better than X+" type of things is what I'm trying to get my heads around. Is that negative modifier for to wound roll? I would say no but not 100% on that one.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Superior Fire Patterns looks disgusting. Guess who's 3 boxes of unpainted bikes just became very relevant. Bikes now shoot possibly up to 24 shots each. For a squad of 3 thats 72 shots per shooting phase. Add in 2-4 more bikes in that unit, and thats a dead horde. Sisters are slightly less worthless than they were. Sword maidens are still hot garbage, bolter variants are cheap backfield objective campers, and the Witchseekers are not slightly less garbage where you need to waste a CP to get 4-6 shots per model. So from average 15 up to 19 hits, for 1 CP or 2 if the unit is over 6 models. Worthless. Still, I think the Caladus Tanks are going to be hot, and the bikes are back on top again. Can you give them the +2 attack ability or is that only the non-bike SC?
The stratagem is keyed to "Adeptus Custodes Infantry', so sadly, we won't be able to use it on Bolter Bikes
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spartacus wrote: Assuming you can make a Telemon dreadnought a character as has been reported, you could give him the Lockwarden trait. It applies to ranged attacks as well, so if there's anything targetable with the character keyword he could blow it to smithereens with -1 invuln dakka.
Woah, i missed this entirely. I would use this every single bloody game.
Nothing official yet, just some vague words during the daily stream about something giving dreadnoughts more attacks and rerolling charges. I'd rein in the excitement about that in particular until we see something definitive.
iGuy91 wrote: I think a big winner for the "Superior Fire Patterns" stratagem is going to be Aquilon Terminators. Their storm bolters are rapid fire weapons, which will go from Rapid Fire 2, to Rapid Fire 4, giving you a whopping 8 str 5 AP-1 shots per model out of deep strike.
Not too shabby.
Venatari are also good, a 5-man unit puts out 20 shots with pistols and hits ~23 times if you have re-roll 1’s. I also think it’s not half bad on the codex units, like a warden bomb. 40 S4 D2 shots will hurt, especially with the “no modifiers” strat.
iGuy91 wrote: I think a big winner for the "Superior Fire Patterns" stratagem is going to be Aquilon Terminators. Their storm bolters are rapid fire weapons, which will go from Rapid Fire 2, to Rapid Fire 4, giving you a whopping 8 str 5 AP-1 shots per model out of deep strike.
Not too shabby.
Venatari are also good, a 5-man unit puts out 20 shots with pistols and hits ~23 times if you have re-roll 1’s. I also think it’s not half bad on the codex units, like a warden bomb. 40 S4 D2 shots will hurt, especially with the “no modifiers” strat.
I'll admit I've never used Venetari. They seem like a real oddball unit I'm not sure how to fit into lists.
iGuy91 wrote: I think a big winner for the "Superior Fire Patterns" stratagem is going to be Aquilon Terminators. Their storm bolters are rapid fire weapons, which will go from Rapid Fire 2, to Rapid Fire 4, giving you a whopping 8 str 5 AP-1 shots per model out of deep strike.
Not too shabby.
Venatari are also good, a 5-man unit puts out 20 shots with pistols and hits ~23 times if you have re-roll 1’s. I also think it’s not half bad on the codex units, like a warden bomb. 40 S4 D2 shots will hurt, especially with the “no modifiers” strat.
24 STR 6 AP -2 2D shots with exploding 6's from a unit of 6 is going to turn them into Primaris killers. That's better than 2 AGCs.
With terrain favoring infantry and especially with the maneuverability of Fly I think it'll be easy enough for them to get cover. Plus anything shooting at Custodes is likely to have AP -2 or better so the 3+ save doesn't matter as much to me. Their Bucklers ignore AP -1 as well which people often forget.
Yeah, not going to lie, this makes squads of sword and board teams as objective campers a lot more effective. 4 guys each would get 4 shots each which is now respectable for at least dissuading charges at least. Too bad they won't be good for anything else.
I will never understand what the intended purpose behind the sag guard now is. I would rather have 3 Bolter spears than the shooters.
Okay so the shield captain buffs are really cool- shame our troops still kinda suck. Maybe with points and terrain changes- which also look excellent- they could improve?
Speaking of terrain rules, it looks like they've taken the good bits of the aos system to put it in 40k- which is great. Plus, obscuring is perfect.
And IF dreadnoughts can become characters (as they should be !!) I will be using that strat every game on my telemon, because cool
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ps venatari looking quite attractive with that stratagem. Maybe if they're useful I'll have an excuse to pick up those beautiful models
I will never understand what the intended purpose behind the sag guard now is. I would rather have 3 Bolter spears than the shooters.
Backline objectives if you’re playing pure Custodes I guess. A cheap squad of 3 firing their 3 heavy bolters every turn is better to have sat on a deployment-zone objective than a melee unit which can only fire 3 bolter shots at 24”
This is what i have translated so far. I will update this poste
War of the Spider - Adeptus Custodes and Sisters of Silence Rules
40k Discussion
Adeptus Custodes
Detachment rules
If your army is in battle forged and contains detachments of the Adeptus Custodes, you can choose from the armies on the following pages, which armies each of those detachments belongs to. If you do this, all Adeptus Custodes units of the respective detachment (with the exception of captain general trajann valoris) will receive the appropriate <Shield Host> faction key word.
Note that some relics are weapons or items of equipment that replace existing weapons or items of equipment of the character model. Where this is the case, in a game that uses point values, you still have to pay the point cost of the weapons or equipment you replaced. Record relics bearing your character models on your army list.
For example, if your army contains a detachment of adeptus custodes consisting of a shield captain, Captain General Trajann Valoris and three units of custodian guards, and you decide that that detachment belongs to the Shadowkeepers, then units (other than Captain General Trajann Valoris) contain the keyword.
A contingent of adeptus custodes belonging to one of the armed forces has access to the following rules.
Talons of the Emperor: Sisters of Silence can be included in an Adeptus Custodes detachment without losing your Sworn Guardians of Aegis of the Emperor abilities.
Shadowkeepers
WT: Lockwarden: When resolving an attack made by a character model against this warlord, subtract 1 from the hit roll. When resolving an attack made by this warlord against a character, subtract 1 from their save, including invulnerable.
Relic: Stasis Dungeon. At the beginning of the fight phase, choose an enemy character model unit within 3 inches of a model with this relic. Halve the attack value of models in that unit (rounded up) until the end of that phase, and reroll wound rolls of 1 from attacks from friendly Shadowkeeper models against that character model unit.
Strat: Responsibility is Heavy: 1CP Use this Stratagem in any phase in which a shadowkeeper unit of your army is chosen as the target of an attack. Subtract 1 from the strength value until the end of that phase if you attack that unit.
The Solar Watch
WL: Forward March: Add at the beginning of the movement phase add 1" on the movement value of friendly Solar Watch units who are within 6 inches of this warlord. Units inside of 6”, they may also shoot with rapid fire weapons as if they were assault weapons after they advanced.
Relic: The Quicksilver Claw: advance and charge, assault 4 guardian spear as per GW site.
Strat: The Approaching Eagle: 0CP. If you kill a character, the next stratagem the enemy uses costs 1cp more!
Emissaries Imperiatus
WL: Voice of the Imperator: If you are within 9 inches of this warlord, friendly Imperium units can use that warlord's moral value. Also add 3 inches to the range of the aura of this warlord, this has already been taken into account in the aura of this talent of the warlord.
Relic: Vexillum dominates: Emissary of the imperator vexilla: Reroll failed morale within 6” of this banner. If your unit is within 6 inches of a model with this relic, friendly models who count as 3 models when it comes to determining which player controls a mission objective.
Strat: The Emperors Hand: 1CP Use this stratagem in any phase when an Emissaries Imperiatus unit from your army is chosen to shoot or fight with. Until the end of that phase, when resolving an attack made by a model in that unit, ignore any negative hit roll, wound roll and AP characteristic modifier and any benefit to the saving throw as a result of cover for that attack.
Aquilon Shield
WL: Honest Companion. If you deal an attack against this warlord, halve the damage inflicted (rounded up).
Relic: Praesidius Only for a model with a stormshield. If you make an attack against a model with this relic, subtract 1 from the wound roll.
Strat: Shield of Honor: Use this Stratagem in any phase when an Empire character model unit of your army is chosen as the target for an attack of an enemy unit model. Choose an exhilarated Aquilon Shield Infantry or Aquilon Shield Dreadnought unit within 3 inches of that imperial character model unit. Until the end of that phase, you measure the distance to that imperial character model unit when you deal with attacks of a model of the enemy unit, but you deal with the attacks from models of the enemy loan unit against the unit you selected. If the selected unit is destroyed, all remaining attacks expire.
Dread Host
WL: All Seeing Devastator: If you deal an attack with a melee weapon of a model in a friendly Dread Host unit within 6 inches of this warlord, an unmodified hit of 6 will result in 1 additional hits.
Relic: Admonimortis: only for a model with castellated axe. This relic from terra replaces a castellan axe and has the following profile. Range 24” Rapid Fire 1, S4, Ap-1, D2, Melee, S+3, Ap-3, 3D.
Strat: The Golden Light of the Moiraides: use this Stratagem at the beginning of your attack phase. Choose for 1CP, a Dread Host unit of your army that was teleported to the battle this turn, or for 2 CP up to three such units. Until the end of that phase, you throw an additional d6 if you make a charge roll for one of those units and then discard one of the dice.
Captain Commander
Stratagem: 1CP once per game, pick a non-named shield captain and give them one of the following traits:
· Wound roll of 6 doubles damage (e.g. d3 > 2d3)
· +1 move characteristic and +1 to advance & charge
· 5+ CP refund max 1 per round
· Reroll wounds vs monsters and vehicles
· +2 wounds characteristic
· +2A against units with >6 models
· d3+3 when pile in and consolidate
· +1A for every wound lost to a max of 3
· +3” auras
Stratagems
· 1CP Choose a character and generate WL trait for them.
· 1CP Choose a dreadnought +1A and reroll charges.
· 1CP Half damage for dreadnought
· 1CP 5+ ignore mortals on vehicle same as knights strat
· 2CP When vehicle with machine spirit dies it can either attack or auto explode
· 2CP Wound rolls of 1-3 against infantry unit will always fail.
· 2CP +1 to wound in fight phase when fighting unit with higher toughness
· 1CP On an opponent’s successful cast targeting a unit, a roll of 4+ negates the power, add one if the target is a warden unit
· 1CP/2CP In shooting 6s auto hit and wound, cost 2cp for units >6 models
· 1CP When a unit wounds with a d6 weapons roll 2d6 choose highest.
· 1CP If an infantry unit didn’t advance, double rapid fire and pistol shots
· 2CP When a unit of terminators are targeted, AP 1 & 2 are treated as 0.
· 2CP No rerolls against a chosen unit for a phase
· 1CP At the end of the charge phase pick a unit that can heroically intervene as if it were a character
Sisters of Silence
Stratagems:
· Negate a psychic power on 3+ (from preview)
· After a custodes unit as shot or fought select a SoS-infantry unit in 6" they can reroll hit rolls for 1cp
· One prosecutor unit can change their bolter profil to be 18" range and assault 3 for 1cp
· When a unit within 18" of a SoS-infantry unit suffers a perils of the warp it suffers d3 additional mortal wounds for 1cp
· -1 to hit for an enemy unit within 6" to a SoS-infantry unit for 1cp
· Plus 1 to wound for a phase for a vigilator unit in melee for 1 cp
· Witchseeker flamer do min 4 hits for 1/2 cp (from the preview)
· When you hit a psyker or a demon with a psyk-out grenade they can overwatch and the SoS unit can reroll 1's to hit for 1cp
Not gonna lie, here come the all Telemon Lists. How can the current Telemon even survive this? All we need now is dual fist telemons getting ported in by a deep striking flag homer and then boom you have 3 of those in your face doing ungodly things with their revised flamer weapons, which may or may not be max hitting, then a likely charge with rerolls, then melee, oh, and one can be a character? Sure. I can live with that.
From facebook: Someone translated the 3 visible Shield Host stuff:
Pick a Shield host, all units except Trajan get the key word.
Shadowkeepers:
Relic: pick enemy character unit inside of 3 inches, half its A value, reroll wound rolls of 1’s for everyone attacking
Warlord Trait: -1 to hit against characters, -1 save for enemy characters
Strategem: 1cp, use in any phase, deduct 1 from enemy strenght value when they attack one of your units.
Solar watch:
Relic: Spear with four shots, assault 24 inches, lets you retreat and advance and still atack after
Warlord Trait: Add 1 to the movement value of units inside of 6, they may also shoot with rapid fire weapons as if they were assault weapons after they advanced
Strategem: 0cp If you kill a character with your solar watch custodes the enemy has to spend an additional command point next time he uses a strategem.
Emissaries of the emperor (?):
Relic: Reroll leadership checks for units inside of 6 inches oft this vexilla, custodes count as three models for the purposes of scoring
Warlord Trait: Use the Warlords Leadership value of 9 for any imperium units inside of 9 inches. Add 3 inches to other auras.
Strategem: 1cp, unit ignores any modifiers to your to hit or to wound roll, ignore ap modifiers as well. Combat and shooting
> dread host WL trait: All Seeing Devastator: If you deal an attack with a melee weapon of a model in a friendly Dread Host unit within 6 inches of this warlord, an unmodified hit of 6 will result in 1 additional hits.
Strat is: 3d6 charge and discard the lowest
Relic: 3D axe
Automatically Appended Next Post: Aquilon Shield
WL: Honest Companion. If you deal an attack against this warlord, halve the damage inflicted (rounded up).
Relic: Praesidius Only for a model with a stormshield. If you make an attack against a model with this relic, subtract 1 from the wound roll.
Strat: Shield of Honor: Use this Stratagem in any phase when an Empire character model unit of your army is chosen as the target for an attack of an enemy unit model. Choose an exhilarated Aquilan-shield-infantry-or Aquilan-shield-dreadnought unit within 3 inches of that imperial character model unit. Until the end of that phase, you measure the distance to that imperial character model unit when you deal with attacks of a model of the enemy unit, but you deal with the attacks from models of the enemy loan unit against the unit you selected. If the selected unit is destroyed, all remaining attacks expire
Dread Host
WL: All Seeing Devastator: If you deal an attack with a melee weapon of a model in a friendly Dread Host unit within 6 inches of this warlord, an unmodified hit of 6 will result in 1 additional hits.
Relic: Admonimortis: only for a model with castellated axe. This relic from terra replaces a castellan axe and has the following profile. Range 24” Rapid Fire 1, S4, Ap-1, D2, Melee, S+3, Ap-3, 3D.
Strat: The Golden Light of the Moiraides: use this Stratagem at the beginning of your attack phase. Choose for 1CP, a Dread Host unit of your army that was teleported to the battle this turn, or for 2 CP up to three such units. Until the end of that phase, you throw an additional d6 if you make a charge roll for one of those units and then discard one of the dice.
And also remember that you can stack that 3D6 with a re-roll charges warlord trait for one model, and +1 to charge for another upgraded character. So one bike captain 3D6 with re-rolls, another character 3D6+1, and another unit 3D6 (with CP re-roll option).
Also based on the strat, it looks like it’s when they teleport in, not “at the start of the battle” so you can use it multiple times.
So dread host is more or less mandatory, the other options don't come even close....or am I missing something here?
As for warlord traits, I don't see anything that beats out codex options, which is a shame.
The 3d castellan axe relic is really rather nice though on a terminator captain
Question: for 1 CP I can give a dreadnought +1 attack and reroll charges. So if i use the dread host stratagem where I can roll 3d6 from deepstrike and discard one dice, can I reroll 3d6 with that buffed dreadnought?
Edit: also, can I turn a dreadnought into a character now or not? Somebody mentioned that on the stream right? Also what about valerian and aleya?
Tiberias wrote: So dread host is more or less mandatory, the other options don't come even close....or am I missing something here?
As for warlord traits, I don't see anything that beats out codex options, which is a shame.
The 3d castellan axe relic is really rather nice though on a terminator captain
Question: for 1 CP I can give a dreadnought +1 attack and reroll charges. So if i use the dread host stratagem where I can roll 3d6 from deepstrike and discard one dice, can I reroll 3d6 with that buffed dreadnought?
Edit: also, can I turn a dreadnought into a character now or not? Somebody mentioned that on the stream right? Also what about valerian and aleya?
Still no word on character dreads though that was intimated on stream. Dread should be able to re-roll the 3D6, yeah. Valerian and Aleya should be a valid HQ for a Custodes detachment though we don't know exactly how yet.
Tiberias wrote: So dread host is more or less mandatory, the other options don't come even close....or am I missing something here?
As for warlord traits, I don't see anything that beats out codex options, which is a shame.
The 3d castellan axe relic is really rather nice though on a terminator captain
Question: for 1 CP I can give a dreadnought +1 attack and reroll charges. So if i use the dread host stratagem where I can roll 3d6 from deepstrike and discard one dice, can I reroll 3d6 with that buffed dreadnought?
Edit: also, can I turn a dreadnought into a character now or not? Somebody mentioned that on the stream right? Also what about valerian and aleya?
Still no word on character dreads though that was intimated on stream. Dread should be able to re-roll the 3D6, yeah. Valerian and Aleya should be a valid HQ for a Custodes detachment though we don't know exactly how yet.
But hasn't gw hinted at updated rules for them, since so many people were pissed that the rules they came with were so atrocious? Also their points cost is still stupid.
Tiberias wrote: So dread host is more or less mandatory, the other options don't come even close....or am I missing something here?
As for warlord traits, I don't see anything that beats out codex options, which is a shame.
The 3d castellan axe relic is really rather nice though on a terminator captain
Question: for 1 CP I can give a dreadnought +1 attack and reroll charges. So if i use the dread host stratagem where I can roll 3d6 from deepstrike and discard one dice, can I reroll 3d6 with that buffed dreadnought?
Edit: also, can I turn a dreadnought into a character now or not? Somebody mentioned that on the stream right? Also what about valerian and aleya?
Still no word on character dreads though that was intimated on stream. Dread should be able to re-roll the 3D6, yeah. Valerian and Aleya should be a valid HQ for a Custodes detachment though we don't know exactly how yet.
But hasn't gw hinted at updated rules for them, since so many people were pissed that the rules they came with were so atrocious? Also their points cost is still stupid.
War of the Spider had already been printed at the time the rules for them came out..
All the points are changing with the 9th ed. release next month and again in December with Chapter Approved 2020, so at least there's some hope there.
Tiberias wrote: So dread host is more or less mandatory, the other options don't come even close....or am I missing something here?
As for warlord traits, I don't see anything that beats out codex options, which is a shame.
The 3d castellan axe relic is really rather nice though on a terminator captain
Question: for 1 CP I can give a dreadnought +1 attack and reroll charges. So if i use the dread host stratagem where I can roll 3d6 from deepstrike and discard one dice, can I reroll 3d6 with that buffed dreadnought?
Edit: also, can I turn a dreadnought into a character now or not? Somebody mentioned that on the stream right? Also what about valerian and aleya?
Still no word on character dreads though that was intimated on stream. Dread should be able to re-roll the 3D6, yeah. Valerian and Aleya should be a valid HQ for a Custodes detachment though we don't know exactly how yet.
But hasn't gw hinted at updated rules for them, since so many people were pissed that the rules they came with were so atrocious? Also their points cost is still stupid.
War of the Spider had already been printed at the time the rules for them came out..
All the points are changing with the 9th ed. release next month and again in December with Chapter Approved 2020, so at least there's some hope there.
Wait, wait....so the two complaints were that one, valerian and aleya were not usable in a custodes detatchment and two, their rules are utter crap and gw said: wait for war of the spider and all will be fine.
So now you can take them in a talons detatchment no problem, but their rules and point cost are still utter gak and will probably never be fixed since they are a black library release? The nail in the coffin is that the sculpts are also still utterly atrocious. Screw gw on this one, seriously.
But I shouldn't be too salty, at least we got one usable shield host, which is nice.
Question?
With the strat that gives +1 to wound a target with higher toughness
Is that before or after weapon str modifers? Because if before than axes will wound on 2 vs anything
NOLA_tiger wrote: Question?
With the strat that gives +1 to wound a target with higher toughness
Is that before or after weapon str modifers? Because if before than axes will wound on 2 vs anything
The toughness of the custodes unit is compared to the targets toughness.
NOLA_tiger wrote: Question?
With the strat that gives +1 to wound a target with higher toughness
Is that before or after weapon str modifers? Because if before than axes will wound on 2 vs anything
It will be after weapon strength modifiers, because you don't know what the wound roll is until you've calculated the final strength of the attack. Nice for axes to wound T8 on 3+ and T6-7 on 2+ still. Spears could use it in conjunction with Piercing Strike too to potentially gain +2 to wound.
So the English pdf has leaked. It’s pinned on Canhammer discord for anyone that wants it. A few of the rules are stronger in English than the German translation doc above but are largely the same. Also Canhammer has a twitch broadcast covering the PA Sunday 9PM EST.
Is anyone inclined to include sisters more frequently into their lists now that we have all the rules leaked? They can surely do some work against thousand sons and Grey knights.
Another thing I've been thinking about is our CP pool in 9th. Let's assume we start with 12 CP, this is how I'd spend some of them before the game starts (in this scenario I'd choose dread host as my shield host):
-1cp to open the vaults
-1cp to buff one SC to captain commander
-3 CP to put one dreadnought into deepstrike and throw in a warden bomb aswell
-1 cp to buff one dreadnought to get +1 attack and reroll charges (achillus is a nice candidate for this I believe)
-1 cp to generate an additional warlord trait since this can be quite a power up for one additional shield captain
That leaves us with 5CP. Now let's be generous and assume we only have to pop our version of transhuman physiology for 2CP in the first battle round to keep a key unit alive or something. That's 3CP left.
In the second battle round we simply have to use the dread host stratagem for 2CP to increase the odds of a successful alpha strike with our deepstriking units. That leaves 1CP.
Now I understand that we generate 1CP per command phase in 9th, but given how strong many of our new stratagems are and how crucial they will probably be to keep our army just semi competitive, isn't the captain commander trait that generates CP on a 5+ once per battle round by far the best option?
You’d want Trajan and pay 1CP to give another Warlord Trait and grab then 5+ CP regen. Then you’re looking at 12+d3+~2+5 (-1) which is like 20ish across the 5 turns. Still, a great deal of our strength is now tied to CP.
out of all the new strats Golden Light of Moiraides and Eternal Penitent are my favourite, puts our dreads firmly back in the game which I’m so happy to see.
EDIT: also reading your ideas once more I think you’re going to leave Wardens at home for Terminators because of the free deep strike and also because Auramite and Adamantium is so good for 1CP. Wardens didn’t get much to help them in this but whatever. I also can’t wait to use Arcane Genetic Alchemy on my blob of Allarus.
Malefic666 wrote: You’d want Trajan and pay 1CP to give another Warlord Trait and grab then 5+ CP regen. Then you’re looking at 12+d3+~2+5 (-1) which is like 20ish across the 5 turns. Still, a great deal of our strength is now tied to CP.
out of all the new strats Golden Light of Moiraides and Eternal Penitent are my favourite, puts our dreads firmly back in the game which I’m so happy to see.
EDIT: also reading your ideas once more I think you’re going to leave Wardens at home for Terminators because of the free deep strike and also because Auramite and Adamantium is so good for 1CP. Wardens didn’t get much to help them in this but whatever. I also can’t wait to use Arcane Genetic Alchemy on my blob of Allarus.
It pains me a bit, but I think you are right. With the new strats allarus termis is the way to go, or aquilons for that matter. Bit of a shame, since I really like the wardens.
Do you think with the +1 attack and reroll charges the achillus dread will finally be worth taking?
Agreed, in spite of using Wardens extensively I'm now firmly in the Aquilons camp after seeing the new rules. Certainly helps that I have 6 fresh out of the spray booth.
Auramite and Adamantium, and Superior Fire Patterns are both incredible for 1 CP. And the Emperors Auspice is similarly incredible for 2.
I think in Dread Host the Telemon is a big winner by giving it Golden Light & Eternal Penitent (using Ancient Artifice as and when needed) but I own 3 Achillus too and yeah I plan on trying 1-3 out. Right now they’re 140 points which is a fair price for something that can deep strike in and roll 3d6 discard lowest on the charge.
The strength of this release is that nothing really lost out (bikes and wardens didn’t get big buffs) but everything we’re good at got a bump up. We’ll just have to see if 9th keeps all of this as strong as it appears in 8th.
Malefic666 wrote: I think in Dread Host the Telemon is a big winner by giving it Golden Light & Eternal Penitent (using Ancient Artifice as and when needed) but I own 3 Achillus too and yeah I plan on trying 1-3 out. Right now they’re 140 points which is a fair price for something that can deep strike in and roll 3d6 discard lowest on the charge.
The strength of this release is that nothing really lost out (bikes and wardens didn’t get big buffs) but everything we’re good at got a bump up. We’ll just have to see if 9th keeps all of this as strong as it appears in 8th.
True, the only caveat to this for me is that all our new strength is tied to CP. Which is not a bad thing necessarily, but I think we are going to have to be very economical with our CP, even in 9th and especially now.
Hence why I believe the 5+ regain CP captain commander ability is going to be almost mandatory.
On another note, how many of you are going to try out the new dread host relic axe on a terminator shield captain? Because I sure as hell am going to try that right away. It probably won't be as good as a 3++, but having one of our characters finally hit at d3 is gonna feel really good
Unstoppable Destroyer for the d3+3” pile in to any enemy model and d3+3 consolidate in any direction is the stand out WLT for me but I’ll prob consider taking the 5+ regen one in most games. We’ll have to play both and see which is best.
The axe is solid and if you’re footslogging say an Terminator SC then it’s probably an okay pick if he’s hanging with Allarus and Aquillons. I think the elite nature of Custodes just makes anything defensive more attractive but it’ll prob be down to personal taste and builds. There is some real tanky HQ builds in our PA if we wanted to go that route (Aquilan Shield).
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: It's funny that GW seems to be pushing players HARD to go FW. I mean, no one is going to buy thePrimaris Mario Cart if everyone is buying FW stuff.
I don't quite get your point. You mean GW pushed Custodes players to go buy from Forgeworld, or everyone? Primaris players are the only ones who would consider buying the mario cart buggy and those guys probably won't shop at forgeworld anyway.
I mean everyone. The FW space marine Dreadnaught models are still the single best unit in the game, point for point. And the competitive Custodes lists are pretty much entirely made up of FW models. There are very few races/ractions which are based off GW models. This was a great oppurtunity for GW to show up and be like, our models are aweseome too! But instead they literally push us towards their FW line. Even our newest rules are practically made for the Telemon or Galatus. Anyone here rushing out to do charges with a Venerable Contemptor?
^ Yeah I can agree with this. The Codex units didn’t really get that much better, but the FW stuff like Aquilons, Venetari and all types of dreads really did.
Some of the better stratagems feel pretty much custom written for FW units.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I mean everyone. The FW space marine Dreadnaught models are still the single best unit in the game, point for point. And the competitive Custodes lists are pretty much entirely made up of FW models. There are very few races/ractions which are based off GW models. This was a great oppurtunity for GW to show up and be like, our models are aweseome too! But instead they literally push us towards their FW line. Even our newest rules are practically made for the Telemon or Galatus. Anyone here rushing out to do charges with a Venerable Contemptor?
1. That's because of all the GW Dreads being overall terrible compared to the FW ones
2. GW didn't give Custodes any options so of course they need FW to create a rounded list or at least close to one.
If GW had written the stratagems only for codex units people would have been moaning about that as well. Can't they just be happy for new rules and new ways to play Custodes?
And I think if you're trying to compare the Custodes plastic line with the SM one and say they should be equal in terms of choice, you're gonna have a bad time. This is Games "Space Marines" Workshop after all.
I think that a 6-model squad of Venatari could become a very useful bomb.
Against Primaris marines (T4 and a 3+ save, 2 wounds), they'll kill an average of 5.33 with no buffs. This goes up to 6.22 near a Shield Captain and 7.26 near Trajann.
With the double shot strat, that goes up ti 10.66/12.44/14.52.
Pop the strat against a T8 and 3+ save unit (i.e. most vehicles) for 10.67 wounds base, 12.44 with hit rerolls, and 14.52 near Trajann. 348 points for the squad (until 9th hits) seems fairly reasonable.
That's enough damage to pop Rhinos and Daemon Princes (the ones without Disgustingly Resilient, anyway) if you can clear the chaff. With a charge, they're genuinely able to put down some flyers in a single turn.
It's not the end-all for a death star, but it's also only 1 CP and a 336 pt unit that's incredibly mobile and can then charge with power axe equivalents. It's a very versatile unit.
Comparatively, the Caladius (which is still a very good tank) runs 220 pts with the D2 autocannon equivalent.
Against Primaris marines, the Caladius will kill 4.56 on its own, 5.37 with hit rerolls, and 6.03 with hit and wound rerolls. This is fairly comparable for 116 points less. It's still maneuverable and is sturdy, but will eat anti-tank fire and definitely doesn't have good melee. Once you factor in the stratagem though, Venatari start becoming very good.
Some more arguments in favor of the Venatari:
- You can hold them in reserve by default, so no paying for ftGLtC.
- This doesn't include melee damage, which is S6 and AP -2, though only D1. Terminators won't be able to hit anywhere near as hard in shooting, but will be better at punching vehicles. The melee can still be buffed and if you're running Dread Host, the charge can be too.
- Being able to keep them off board means that you aren't hurt as badly for going second.
- They'll eat Eldar jetbikes, Centurions, Aggressors, and be able to finish off anything with < 15 wounds in melee if shooting doesn't do it.
I'd still pair them with Jetbikes, a Pallas, and/or some Caladius tanks, but Venatari seem like a very strong option.
I mean, GW did only write strategems for codex units. They just couldn't write them in a way that excluded applicable forge world units. It would have been very awkward to do so.
Fezzik im just curious, but do you just hate the fact that we have to use FW competivly or do you hate FW itself?
The custodes book itself isn't competititve because it lacks options.
We get amazing HQ's, durable troops, take all comer bikes, and some gimicky terminators/infantry bomb (wardens).
That is literally all that's in the book. The LR and Dreads in the book are either overcosted or just not all that competitive compared to what other armies get. Therefore we use FW models, which give us some long range firepower (desperately needed) and some faster mobility stuff.
Bikes are amazing, but everyone knows about them, and can kill them over 2/3 turns so they wont win at tournaments. You cant just make a one trick poney list and expect to be competitive.
The new strats greatly improve the dreadnoughts (all of em, not just FW). They also give us more options with our older stuff.
Now we can take SoS to help with psychic stuff which is also a great help.
Don't hate on FW for giving us stuff we needed please.
Dr. What wrote: I think that a 6-model squad of Venatari could become a very useful bomb.
Against Primaris marines (T4 and a 3+ save, 2 wounds), they'll kill an average of 5.33 with no buffs. This goes up to 6.22 near a Shield Captain and 7.26 near Trajann.
With the double shot strat, that goes up ti 10.66/12.44/14.52.
Pop the strat against a T8 and 3+ save unit (i.e. most vehicles) for 10.67 wounds base, 12.44 with hit rerolls, and 14.52 near Trajann. 348 points for the squad (until 9th hits) seems fairly reasonable.
That's enough damage to pop Rhinos and Daemon Princes (the ones without Disgustingly Resilient, anyway) if you can clear the chaff. With a charge, they're genuinely able to put down some flyers in a single turn.
It's not the end-all for a death star, but it's also only 1 CP and a 336 pt unit that's incredibly mobile and can then charge with power axe equivalents. It's a very versatile unit.
Comparatively, the Caladius (which is still a very good tank) runs 220 pts with the D2 autocannon equivalent.
Against Primaris marines, the Caladius will kill 4.56 on its own, 5.37 with hit rerolls, and 6.03 with hit and wound rerolls. This is fairly comparable for 116 points less. It's still maneuverable and is sturdy, but will eat anti-tank fire and definitely doesn't have good melee. Once you factor in the stratagem though, Venatari start becoming very good.
Some more arguments in favor of the Venatari:
- You can hold them in reserve by default, so no paying for ftGLtC.
- This doesn't include melee damage, which is S6 and AP -2, though only D1. Terminators won't be able to hit anywhere near as hard in shooting, but will be better at punching vehicles. The melee can still be buffed and if you're running Dread Host, the charge can be too.
- Being able to keep them off board means that you aren't hurt as badly for going second.
- They'll eat Eldar jetbikes, Centurions, Aggressors, and be able to finish off anything with < 15 wounds in melee if shooting doesn't do it.
I'd still pair them with Jetbikes, a Pallas, and/or some Caladius tanks, but Venatari seem like a very strong option.
Venatari in bigger squads really do sound tasty now that we have access to that new strat. Damn you FW, my wallet is going to suffer...
I'm just a tiny bit sad that the pistol option for the venatari is now always the best configuration for them, because the lances are still pretty damn cool. But hey, at least they are actually playable now, which is awsome!
I’ve been looking into combos for the captain-commander with warlord traits/relics, a couple good ones on the bike side. +1 to a re-rollable charge or 9 wounds with FNP and a 3++ and VOTBG looks nice. I guess the advantage of these is they can be customized at the table.
now that i have thought about it a bit more, i think the stuff from war of the spider really helps. And with the new deny strat for psychic powers i don't think we have much use for SoS. you can take the WL trait for deny and now we have 1 meh strat and the new really good deny start. all in all it is too little too late. I really hope Custodes get buffed with 9th.
greyknight12 wrote: I’ve been looking into combos for the captain-commander with warlord traits/relics, a couple good ones on the bike side. +1 to a re-rollable charge or 9 wounds with FNP and a 3++ and VOTBG looks nice. I guess the advantage of these is they can be customized at the table.
Sure you COULD customize at the beginning of the game, but how often are you really not going to choose to go with 9 FNP wounds? Keep in mind you can just buy an Inquisitor and camp it in the corner for extra CP. Rerolling wounds against big stuff is nice, but the Lance already does that on the charge.
greyknight12 wrote: I’ve been looking into combos for the captain-commander with warlord traits/relics, a couple good ones on the bike side. +1 to a re-rollable charge or 9 wounds with FNP and a 3++ and VOTBG looks nice. I guess the advantage of these is they can be customized at the table.
Sure you COULD customize at the beginning of the game, but how often are you really not going to choose to go with 9 FNP wounds? Keep in mind you can just buy an Inquisitor and camp it in the corner for extra CP. Rerolling wounds against big stuff is nice, but the Lance already does that on the charge.
Being able to consolidate out of combat is really good too. I might prefer it over 2W.
I need to play with 9th CP before I know how badly we need the CP regen one.
greyknight12 wrote: I’ve been looking into combos for the captain-commander with warlord traits/relics, a couple good ones on the bike side. +1 to a re-rollable charge or 9 wounds with FNP and a 3++ and VOTBG looks nice. I guess the advantage of these is they can be customized at the table.
Sure you COULD customize at the beginning of the game, but how often are you really not going to choose to go with 9 FNP wounds? Keep in mind you can just buy an Inquisitor and camp it in the corner for extra CP. Rerolling wounds against big stuff is nice, but the Lance already does that on the charge.
Being able to consolidate out of combat is really good too. I might prefer it over 2W.
I need to play with 9th CP before I know how badly we need the CP regen one.
Like I said, an Inquisitor is only 55 points and VERY easy to hide if you need that regen.
Do we have the exact wording of the Aquilon Shield strat? If the shooting attacks have to target the AS unit, it seems like it will be super broken as a bodyguard. Consider a Vexilla Praetor with Magnifica, Radiant Mantle (for now, once mods cap at -1, probably the AS trait or SC) and the new Storm Shield relic. -2 to hit, -1 to wound (T5, so even Lascannons are 4+) and a 3++.
Put that in front of a Castellan and make people miss the days of ion bulwark and rotate ion shields stacking.
JDarion wrote: Do we have the exact wording of the Aquilon Shield strat? If the shooting attacks have to target the AS unit, it seems like it will be super broken as a bodyguard. Consider a Vexilla Praetor with Magnifica, Radiant Mantle (for now, once mods cap at -1, probably the AS trait or SC) and the new Storm Shield relic. -2 to hit, -1 to wound (T5, so even Lascannons are 4+) and a 3++.
Put that in front of a Castellan and make people miss the days of ion bulwark and rotate ion shields stacking.
The Canhammer discord has all of the rules, pinned in the Custodes discussion section. Yes it appears to work that way. Not sure for how long, I'd say an FAQ is inbound.
You can also take the 5+++ over Radiant Mantle, its often better anyway.
JDarion wrote: Do we have the exact wording of the Aquilon Shield strat? If the shooting attacks have to target the AS unit, it seems like it will be super broken as a bodyguard. Consider a Vexilla Praetor with Magnifica, Radiant Mantle (for now, once mods cap at -1, probably the AS trait or SC) and the new Storm Shield relic. -2 to hit, -1 to wound (T5, so even Lascannons are 4+) and a 3++.
Put that in front of a Castellan and make people miss the days of ion bulwark and rotate ion shields stacking.
The Canhammer discord has all of the rules, pinned in the Custodes discussion section. Yes it appears to work that way. Not sure for how long, I'd say an FAQ is inbound.
You can also take the 5+++ over Radiant Mantle, its often better anyway.
The Aquillon Shield warlord trait that halves all damage might be better than both. Depends what you're fighting I guess. Turning all 2 damage wounds to 1 damage is nice. 3 damage becoming 2 damage isn't as amazing
Inquisitor only gets to regen the opponents CPs so isn’t quite as strong. I think the Captain Commander abilities are mostly great. Swift as the Eagle on a Solar Watch SC is good (I think SW may be the sleeper host and better than most people think), Startegic Mastermind might end up being an auto take as we are so CP hungry, even with Trajann), Indomitable Constitution and Unstoppable Destroyer are both fantastic with both putting forward a strong case for being taken. I think the way one builds their army and the way 9th Move, Charge & Fight works might be key. My gut still says Unstoppable Destroyer on a Dread Host SC with the Axe is just so good.
Hi all, just dipping my toes into Custodes, I brought a couple of models when they first came out but have only used them a couple of times. With the new edition I've decided that custodes will be my new army to add to the collection and just wanted a few pointers incase I'm doing something badly wrong.
These are my thoughts for a basic list, its about 1750 which I'm hoping will be around 2000 in 9th.
Bike Shield Captain - Seems an auto include beatstick Trajan - Again, too good not to use.
3x3 Troops - Intend to have one shield in each. Is it worth taking bigger units?
Vexila - -1 to hit still seems the obvious choice and going with a shield.
3 Vertus Jetbikes with Salvo Launchers - The launchers don't seem popular but the list needs some anti tank and having it mobile is likely a good idea with the new terrain.
5/6 Terminators - The new durability strats make these very hard to shift and the built in deepstrike and new strats for double shooting and rolling an extra charge dice seem to make a bigger unit more valuable.
Relic Dreadnought - I own the Forgeworld Spear variant which can happily proxy for the codex version. Obviously the forgeworld version is much better but those rules are going to swiftly change with 9th.
A few general questions:
How do we kill tanks? The new edition seems to favour armour so I expect to see more of it around, I can hit them in melee but other options are thin on the ground. Mobility - Other than making an army of jetbikes this is an issue, smaller tables may well help with this as will better terrain. Forgeworld - I'm not adverse to FW just trying to keep the cost down as the army is a nice cheap option - If you had to choose one thing with current role what would you choose? (the rules are going to change but they will likely still do a similar job on the field).
Our basic army rules seem a bit lacking, many primaris marines are better than us model for model (an intercessor Srg has 4 thunder hammer attacks!) I'm hoping for a real upgrade whenever a new 9th codex drops, more attacks and maybe a general "reduce AP by one" trait is needed to combat all the AP-1/-2 that is out there negating our armour.
WisdomLS wrote: Hi all,
just dipping my toes into Custodes, I brought a couple of models when they first came out but have only used them a couple of times. With the new edition I've decided that custodes will be my new army to add to the collection and just wanted a few pointers incase I'm doing something badly wrong.
These are my thoughts for a basic list, its about 1750 which I'm hoping will be around 2000 in 9th.
Bike Shield Captain - Seems an auto include beatstick
Trajan - Again, too good not to use.
3x3 Troops - Intend to have one shield in each. Is it worth taking bigger units?
Vexila - -1 to hit still seems the obvious choice and going with a shield.
3 Vertus Jetbikes with Salvo Launchers - The launchers don't seem popular but the list needs some anti tank and having it mobile is likely a good idea with the new terrain.
5/6 Terminators - The new durability strats make these very hard to shift and the built in deepstrike and new strats for double shooting and rolling an extra charge dice seem to make a bigger unit more valuable.
Relic Dreadnought - I own the Forgeworld Spear variant which can happily proxy for the codex version. Obviously the forgeworld version is much better but those rules are going to swiftly change with 9th.
A few general questions:
How do we kill tanks? The new edition seems to favour armour so I expect to see more of it around, I can hit them in melee but other options are thin on the ground.
Mobility - Other than making an army of jetbikes this is an issue, smaller tables may well help with this as will better terrain.
Forgeworld - I'm not adverse to FW just trying to keep the cost down as the army is a nice cheap option - If you had to choose one thing with current role what would you choose? (the rules are going to change but they will likely still do a similar job on the field).
Our basic army rules seem a bit lacking, many primaris marines are better than us model for model (an intercessor Srg has 4 thunder hammer attacks!) I'm hoping for a real upgrade whenever a new 9th codex drops, more attacks and maybe a general "reduce AP by one" trait is needed to combat all the AP-1/-2 that is out there negating our armour.
Ah, the bandwagon starts rolling eh... (joking)
Valoris, some Custodian Guard, a box of bikes and some sort of Terminators would be what I would buy in your position. While you paint those up we will learn more about 9th edition rules and points, which could obviously make a big difference to what effective Custodes armies look like in the near future. But I think you're pretty safe starting with those core units based on what we've seen already.
Tanks - My take has always been (and moreso with the recent PA rule leaks) that Custodes should survive shooting from tanks and kill them in assault. We now have the tools defensively and mobility-wise to make it into combat to make this more achievable.
Speaking of Mobility - Movement speed isn't everything. The upcoming Psychic Awakening rules have given us another good stratagem to help make deepstriking as a dependable strategy rather than just a helpful tactic. Bike units pay for their high movement speed in points and not being infantry (I suspect this will be a major thing in 9th with new terrain rules).
FW - As I said just start with some of the core units first then worry about FW later, Telemon Dreadought and Aquilon Terminators are good right now but who knows if that will change in a months time.
WisdomLS wrote: Hi all,
just dipping my toes into Custodes, I brought a couple of models when they first came out but have only used them a couple of times. With the new edition I've decided that custodes will be my new army to add to the collection and just wanted a few pointers incase I'm doing something badly wrong.
These are my thoughts for a basic list, its about 1750 which I'm hoping will be around 2000 in 9th.
Bike Shield Captain - Seems an auto include beatstick
Trajan - Again, too good not to use.
3x3 Troops - Intend to have one shield in each. Is it worth taking bigger units?
Vexila - -1 to hit still seems the obvious choice and going with a shield.
3 Vertus Jetbikes with Salvo Launchers - The launchers don't seem popular but the list needs some anti tank and having it mobile is likely a good idea with the new terrain.
5/6 Terminators - The new durability strats make these very hard to shift and the built in deepstrike and new strats for double shooting and rolling an extra charge dice seem to make a bigger unit more valuable.
Relic Dreadnought - I own the Forgeworld Spear variant which can happily proxy for the codex version. Obviously the forgeworld version is much better but those rules are going to swiftly change with 9th.
A few general questions:
How do we kill tanks? The new edition seems to favour armour so I expect to see more of it around, I can hit them in melee but other options are thin on the ground.
Without FW, killing tanks and especially knights is tough. Allarus or bikes are your best option without FW i use an Ares gun ship(ridiculously expensive mony wise) to destroy tanks and a Caladius with the blaze cannon
Mobility - Other than making an army of jetbikes this is an issue, smaller tables may well help with this as will better terrain.
Forgeworld - I'm not adverse to FW just trying to keep the cost down as the army is a nice cheap option - If you had to choose one thing with current role what would you choose? (the rules are going to change but they will likely still do a similar job on the field).
I would wait until we know more about the FW books. But right now i would buy a Telemon
Our basic army rules seem a bit lacking, many primaris marines are better than us model for model (an intercessor Srg has 4 thunder hammer attacks!) I'm hoping for a real upgrade whenever a new 9th codex drops, more attacks and maybe a general "reduce AP by one" trait is needed to combat all the AP-1/-2 that is out there negating our armour.
Every army lacks when compared to SM they are just too good and to easy to play(point and click and win).
Thanks for the replies guys, it seems like a decent force to jump on the bandwagon with, with the bits I already own it around £100 quid for a near 2K force, plus its so small it wont take up much space so my wife might not notice ;-)
You're right I shouldn't compare everything to marines, they just seem to be moving into the super elite territory.
The telemon is certainly a model I like, can't resist a dreadnought :-)
The Anti-tank is just something I've have to play around then, unless allies are a viable option - I have most other imperial forces.
WisdomLS wrote: Thanks for the replies guys, it seems like a decent force to jump on the bandwagon with, with the bits I already own it around £100 quid for a near 2K force, plus its so small it wont take up much space so my wife might not notice ;-)
You're right I shouldn't compare everything to marines, they just seem to be moving into the super elite territory.
The telemon is certainly a model I like, can't resist a dreadnought :-)
The Anti-tank is just something I've have to play around then, unless allies are a viable option - I have most other imperial forces.
I forgot to mention, the Telemon is also a decent anti tank option with 2 cannons. But it is vulnerable to the bad touch aka getting tied up in melee. That will change in 9th and the telemon looks already really good now but that might all change with 9th ed.
So I've been toying with this list for our new update in war of the spider and I wanted to share it with you guys and get some opinions. (when 9th Ed drops the models from the Vanguard detatchment in this list would just migrate into the battalion to get maximum CP)
Since I'm playing a big blob of allarus terminators I'm naturally playing dread host. I'd make my bike captain into a captain commander for 1cp and give him the recycle CP on a 5+ ability.
I'd also pay a CP for open the vaults to give my allarus shield captain the dread host relic axe with flat 3 dmg because it's awesome, put the achillus into deepstrike and buff him with the new strat to give him +1 attack and reroll charges.
I am not sure if in this case whether I would pay the extra CP to generate an extra warlord trait for my allarus captain because I am already spending quite a lot before the game even starts, but the dread host one that gives exploding 6s in melee would be tasty with the allarus bomb....not sure if it's worth it though
Game plan would be rather straight forward. Keep Trajann and the vexilla near the telemon. Use Trajann moment shackle to regain CP.
Park the guard squads on some objectives or carefully advance them up the board.
On the second turn unleash hell with our new dread host stratagem to increase our chances to charge from deepstrike and in the 3rd turn, if there are any CP left, play unleash the lions on the allarus blob to create utter chaos and mayhem.
Agree that an army-wide “ignores AP-1” is what Custodes need most defensively. Something to also keep in mind is with smaller board sizes CC of all types is going to be buffed.
For bikes, I still think hurricane bolters are the way to go: they are really good at what they are supposed to do, while missiles are only mediocre against their ideal targets. Against T7 3+ the missile does 2.22 wounds (assuming 4 damage and no more -1 to hit, less damage if there’s an invulnerable save) while the bolters do 1.11 inside 12”. 4 lance attacks do 3.1 damage in CC. In other words, you can cover your “anti-horde” bases with bolters, but you can’t cover your anti-tank with missiles and you’re not much better off against your typical targets (and still worse than your basic CC). If you want anti-tank shooting, right now FW is the only real place to get it with Telemon, Caladius, and Agamatus bikes or even the flyers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Tiberias it will depend on the matchup, but I’d pay the CP to give your Allarus captain the 5++ FNP warlord trait.
greyknight12 wrote: Agree that an army-wide “ignores AP-1” is what Custodes need most defensively. Something to also keep in mind is with smaller board sizes CC of all types is going to be buffed.
For bikes, I still think hurricane bolters are the way to go: they are really good at what they are supposed to do, while missiles are only mediocre against their ideal targets. Against T7 3+ the missile does 2.22 wounds (assuming 4 damage and no more -1 to hit, less damage if there’s an invulnerable save) while the bolters do 1.11 inside 12”. 4 lance attacks do 3.1 damage in CC. In other words, you can cover your “anti-horde” bases with bolters, but you can’t cover your anti-tank with missiles and you’re not much better off against your typical targets (and still worse than your basic CC). If you want anti-tank shooting, right now FW is the only real place to get it with Telemon, Caladius, and Agamatus bikes or even the flyers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Tiberias it will depend on the matchup, but I’d pay the CP to give your Allarus captain the 5++ FNP warlord trait.
An army wide ignore - 1 ap would be awsome.
I just saw that in my list I've not chosen a warlord trait. Cause I had planned to give the bike captain the 5+++. Do you think the allarus captain is the better target for the 5++?
I would consider it on the Allarus captain simply because you’ll be able to give the bike a 3++, you can make the bike captain ultra survivable by also giving him FNP or you can split the buffs; a lot will depend on how aggressive you’re going to be with each.
I'm really liking the Bike Captain with the 3++ Bike Relic, 5+++ Warlord Trait and then the +2 wound General Captain buff - Add in victor of the Blood games and he'll be nie on indestructible!
greyknight12 wrote:I would consider it on the Allarus captain simply because you’ll be able to give the bike a 3++, you can make the bike captain ultra survivable by also giving him FNP or you can split the buffs; a lot will depend on how aggressive you’re going to be with each.
WisdomLS wrote:I'm really liking the Bike Captain with the 3++ Bike Relic, 5+++ Warlord Trait and then the +2 wound General Captain buff - Add in victor of the Blood games and he'll be nie on indestructible!
The 5+++ on the bike captain is obviously very strong combined with the auric aquilis, it also really good on the allarus captain. It's just that I am notoriously bad at making successful invuln saves. I know that this is just personal bias, but it's already become sort of a meme in my playing group. I have had so many bad instances of our seemingly incredible durable characters just die randomly while at the same time failing even do serious dmg before dying because of our notoriously swingy d3 dmg weapons.
Therefore if I am going to pay a CP for an extra warlord trait I'd personally rather give the allarus captain the dread host trait with exploding 6s in melee when he is already carrying the relic axe with flat d3 dmg. This way I can at least be quite sure that everything the allarus captain and his terminator squad touch in combat will just evaporate.
I also like the captain commander ability to give our bike captain +2 wounds to make him even more tough, but I think the recycling CP ability on 5+ will always outshine every other option, because our new stratagems are so good.
greyknight12 wrote:I would consider it on the Allarus captain simply because you’ll be able to give the bike a 3++, you can make the bike captain ultra survivable by also giving him FNP or you can split the buffs; a lot will depend on how aggressive you’re going to be with each.
WisdomLS wrote:I'm really liking the Bike Captain with the 3++ Bike Relic, 5+++ Warlord Trait and then the +2 wound General Captain buff - Add in victor of the Blood games and he'll be nie on indestructible!
The 5+++ on the bike captain is obviously very strong combined with the auric aquilis, it also really good on the allarus captain. It's just that I am notoriously bad at making successful invuln saves. I know that this is just personal bias, but it's already become sort of a meme in my playing group. I have had so many bad instances of our seemingly incredible durable characters just die randomly while at the same time failing even do serious dmg before dying because of our notoriously swingy d3 dmg weapons.
Therefore if I am going to pay a CP for an extra warlord trait I'd personally rather give the allarus captain the dread host trait with exploding 6s in melee when he is already carrying the relic axe with flat d3 dmg. This way I can at least be quite sure that everything the allarus captain and his terminator squad touch in combat will just evaporate.
I also like the captain commander ability to give our bike captain +2 wounds to make him even more tough, but I think the recycling CP ability on 5+ will always outshine every other option, because our new stratagems are so good.
Remember, the 5+ CP is still restricted to once per-battle-round. So we're looking at 6ish. You also gain one natively each battle round. So you'll have 18 already over the course of a game.
greyknight12 wrote:I would consider it on the Allarus captain simply because you’ll be able to give the bike a 3++, you can make the bike captain ultra survivable by also giving him FNP or you can split the buffs; a lot will depend on how aggressive you’re going to be with each.
WisdomLS wrote:I'm really liking the Bike Captain with the 3++ Bike Relic, 5+++ Warlord Trait and then the +2 wound General Captain buff - Add in victor of the Blood games and he'll be nie on indestructible!
The 5+++ on the bike captain is obviously very strong combined with the auric aquilis, it also really good on the allarus captain. It's just that I am notoriously bad at making successful invuln saves. I know that this is just personal bias, but it's already become sort of a meme in my playing group. I have had so many bad instances of our seemingly incredible durable characters just die randomly while at the same time failing even do serious dmg before dying because of our notoriously swingy d3 dmg weapons.
Therefore if I am going to pay a CP for an extra warlord trait I'd personally rather give the allarus captain the dread host trait with exploding 6s in melee when he is already carrying the relic axe with flat d3 dmg. This way I can at least be quite sure that everything the allarus captain and his terminator squad touch in combat will just evaporate.
I also like the captain commander ability to give our bike captain +2 wounds to make him even more tough, but I think the recycling CP ability on 5+ will always outshine every other option, because our new stratagems are so good.
Remember, the 5+ CP is still restricted to once per-battle-round. So we're looking at 6ish. You also gain one natively each battle round. So you'll have 18 already over the course of a game.
Yes, and we are going to need all the CP, trust me. Most of your buffs in psychic awakening is tied to stratagems, which is why I think that captain commander ability way outshines the other ones, even though I think many of the other options are way cooler. Unstoppable Destroyer for example is awsome with the 3+d3 pile in and consolidate in any direction, thats nuts. But I think the 5+ regain a CP is still better overall.
Think about it, our version of transhuman physiology and the new strat that prevent any enemy rerolls are really, really strong, especially if you can combine them. If you can get those off one additional time due to the 5+ CP recycling it is already stronger than all other options in my opinion.
With the new strats our guys are finally as durable as they should have been in the first place, so anything that lets us use those stratagems more often is just golden in my book.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: We also have to wait and see what GW does in nerfing FW units. I am betting the Telemon will get a change.
What makes you think they will nerf the FW units? Did I miss something and they announced that they will?
I am still hoping we see little buffs to the achillus and galatus, though the galatus will already receive a buff since in 9th he can shoot his flamer into melee, which is really juicy.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: We also have to wait and see what GW does in nerfing FW units. I am betting the Telemon will get a change.
Remember when Custodes FW got an update about 6 months ago and all our stuff got ‘nerfed’ for no reason, points increases/ranges cut. Well... I think that was done with 9th in mind, we already know boards are smaller and points are going up. At the time this happened GW would’ve been writing and finalising All the PA books and 9th. Do we really think they’re going to make changes again? My theory is that the FW stuff won’t change at all and it’s already done with 9th in mind.
FWIW I don’t think we’re going to see huge point changes. It’s not like Custodes have been tearing up the competitive scene and we all know what units are criminally undercosted.
The Achillus got all the buffs the Galatus did. The Galatus is still crap imo but the Achillus is decent for the points. Dreads got a big buff with what we know about 9th.
When 9th was "dropped" they specifically mentioned that all FW models would be getting a point review. They were still usable, but changes would be coming. Given the recent buffs to our dreads, I sincerely believe that GW will not allow the Telemon to exist at it's current cost. a 3d6 charge? Shoot in melee with 2d6 (Possibly max shots by design) auto hitting S7 AP2 D1? Yeah, that is slightly better than intented me thinks.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: When 9th was "dropped" they specifically mentioned that all FW models would be getting a point review. They were still usable, but changes would be coming. Given the recent buffs to our dreads, I sincerely believe that GW will not allow the Telemon to exist at it's current cost. a 3d6 charge? Shoot in melee with 2d6 (Possibly max shots by design) auto hitting S7 AP2 D1? Yeah, that is slightly better than intented me thinks.
They mentioned a point review and also (accidentally) let slip that FW would be released at the same time as 9th and that it’s already done. My argument is that logically ours has probably been done and as we recently saw changes why was that not already with 9th in mind?
A Telemon can’t get a 3d6 charge, it’s 3d6 discard one for 1/2CP, lasts 1 phase, and is a host choice (admittedly a strong one), that isn’t that OP. Not sure what’s 2d6 S7 AP2 d1 but I assume you mean 2 Arachnus storm cannons in burst mode? 12 shots in melee, great you’re not rocking a Caestus (big mistake) so likely not doing too much in melee then anyway. I hated bad touch as a mechanic anyway.
I mean can we at least just stick to facts and be happy about the fantastic PA we just received. Let’s go with what we know and put the GW hates us tin hats away for now.
I think that is a fine sentiment, but there are people here telling new players to run out and buy Telemon's and other FW stuff, like it's going to never get changed. I don't think it's tin foil to look at what GW stated, FW books are all getting a review, and think oh, maybe I'll hold off on the three tanks and 2 telemon for right now until GW actually fully launches 9th and slightly more people know what GW is actually doing to my army.
And to the person above who asked if I was pissed at FW or just the army in general? I am pissed that the army I chose to play and invest in became GW's least invested in faction. More than half our faction comes from a provider I can't walk into and buy off a shelf, or pay reasonable prices for (Unless I go EBAY or China market). I am pissed my Bikes got zero buffs over the least used models in the entire codex. I am pissed that my army looks like straight fire, and all I get to see are Primaris Carts and Bikes.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I think that is a fine sentiment, but there are people here telling new players to run out and buy Telemon's and other FW stuff, like it's going to never get changed.
Who though? Who is saying this?
If you're referring to WisdomLS post, every single poster who replied recommended waiting before touching FW because 9th is just around the corner.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I am pissed that the army I chose to play and invest in became GW's least invested in faction.
Its like you have nothing of value to add in your posts so you manufacture this bizzare sounding outrage over GW's product portfolio to get replies. Its not a conspiracy theory, theyre just selling miniatures. They don't owe you anything and if you are unsatisfied just stop spending money on their products. People come to 40k forums because they like 40k, not to come and hear how bad GW is.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I am pissed that the army I chose to play and invest in became GW's least invested in faction.
This is demonstrably false while GSC, Drukhari, Harlequins and Deathwatch still exist as factions.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I am pissed my Bikes got zero buffs over the least used models in the entire codex.
You're...pissed that one of the Custodes best units didnt get buffed? Then you werent paying attention to PA at all. The overwhelming majority of attention was focused on units that didnt see competitive level play (the end result of that attention is highly variable, but the intent was pretty clearly to buff up the lesser used models and units).
What did you expect, a shiny big "I-Win" button to glue onto your Praetors and Shield-Captains on Bikes?
Eihnlazer wrote: Fezzik im just curious, but do you just hate the fact that we have to use FW competivly or do you hate FW itself?
The custodes book itself isn't competititve because it lacks options.
We get amazing HQ's, durable troops, take all comer bikes, and some gimicky terminators/infantry bomb (wardens).
That is literally all that's in the book. The LR and Dreads in the book are either overcosted or just not all that competitive compared to what other armies get. Therefore we use FW models, which give us some long range firepower (desperately needed) and some faster mobility stuff.
Bikes are amazing, but everyone knows about them, and can kill them over 2/3 turns so they wont win at tournaments. You cant just make a one trick poney list and expect to be competitive.
The new strats greatly improve the dreadnoughts (all of em, not just FW). They also give us more options with our older stuff.
Now we can take SoS to help with psychic stuff which is also a great help.
Don't hate on FW for giving us stuff we needed please.
I dislike forgeworld for their abusive pricing policies, dislike how GW chose to approach releasing and now updating custodes, and wish for more substantial options that don't rely on, well, extra abusive pricing. Forgeworld is literally priced to be exclusionary so rich hobbyests (and more than a few poorly self controlled not rich hobbyests spending money they don't have) can buy it and then sneer at people who can't afford it and man does that burn my buns. That FW is what custodes needs is kind of damning on GW for not... just giving Custodes enough options.
WisdomLS wrote: Hi all,
just dipping my toes into Custodes, I brought a couple of models when they first came out but have only used them a couple of times. With the new edition I've decided that custodes will be my new army to add to the collection and just wanted a few pointers incase I'm doing something badly wrong.
These are my thoughts for a basic list, its about 1750 which I'm hoping will be around 2000 in 9th.
Bike Shield Captain - Seems an auto include beatstick
Trajan - Again, too good not to use.
3x3 Troops - Intend to have one shield in each. Is it worth taking bigger units?
Vexila - -1 to hit still seems the obvious choice and going with a shield.
3 Vertus Jetbikes with Salvo Launchers - The launchers don't seem popular but the list needs some anti tank and having it mobile is likely a good idea with the new terrain.
5/6 Terminators - The new durability strats make these very hard to shift and the built in deepstrike and new strats for double shooting and rolling an extra charge dice seem to make a bigger unit more valuable.
Relic Dreadnought - I own the Forgeworld Spear variant which can happily proxy for the codex version. Obviously the forgeworld version is much better but those rules are going to swiftly change with 9th.
A few general questions:
How do we kill tanks? The new edition seems to favour armour so I expect to see more of it around, I can hit them in melee but other options are thin on the ground.
Without FW, killing tanks and especially knights is tough. Allarus or bikes are your best option without FW i use an Ares gun ship(ridiculously expensive mony wise) to destroy tanks and a Caladius with the blaze cannon
Mobility - Other than making an army of jetbikes this is an issue, smaller tables may well help with this as will better terrain.
Forgeworld - I'm not adverse to FW just trying to keep the cost down as the army is a nice cheap option - If you had to choose one thing with current role what would you choose? (the rules are going to change but they will likely still do a similar job on the field).
I would wait until we know more about the FW books. But right now i would buy a Telemon
Our basic army rules seem a bit lacking, many primaris marines are better than us model for model (an intercessor Srg has 4 thunder hammer attacks!) I'm hoping for a real upgrade whenever a new 9th codex drops, more attacks and maybe a general "reduce AP by one" trait is needed to combat all the AP-1/-2 that is out there negating our armour.
Every army lacks when compared to SM they are just too good and to easy to play(point and click and win).
I actually think Custodes got a big bump in knight nuking with strategems making for easier DS charges and plus 1 to wound. Especially bikes. 4 plus rerolling is a world of difference compared to a 5 plus rerolling.
Custodes did become quite CP hungry though, so I hope everyone's got their loyal 32 until 9th. I mean, if you're actually playing games in lockdown.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: When 9th was "dropped" they specifically mentioned that all FW models would be getting a point review. They were still usable, but changes would be coming. Given the recent buffs to our dreads, I sincerely believe that GW will not allow the Telemon to exist at it's current cost. a 3d6 charge? Shoot in melee with 2d6 (Possibly max shots by design) auto hitting S7 AP2 D1? Yeah, that is slightly better than intented me thinks.
They mentioned a point review and also (accidentally) let slip that FW would be released at the same time as 9th and that it’s already done. My argument is that logically ours has probably been done and as we recently saw changes why was that not already with 9th in mind?
A Telemon can’t get a 3d6 charge, it’s 3d6 discard one for 1/2CP, lasts 1 phase, and is a host choice (admittedly a strong one), that isn’t that OP. Not sure what’s 2d6 S7 AP2 d1 but I assume you mean 2 Arachnus storm cannons in burst mode? 12 shots in melee, great you’re not rocking a Caestus (big mistake) so likely not doing too much in melee then anyway. I hated bad touch as a mechanic anyway.
I mean can we at least just stick to facts and be happy about the fantastic PA we just received. Let’s go with what we know and put the GW hates us tin hats away for now.
The PA's aren't all that well working with 9th in mind though. They claim they were written with that in mind yet includes stuff that is excelent in 8th ed and literally loses all point in 9th. Get to ignore -1 for moving with heavy weapon! Great. Except in 9th ed only applies to vehicles(which gets it in 9th ed) and stuff that have natively anyway...Only one weapon on characters and bad one at that actually benefits from this PA addition.
Plus GW doesn't want players to buy resin. Plastic instead. Bigger profit margin.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: When 9th was "dropped" they specifically mentioned that all FW models would be getting a point review. They were still usable, but changes would be coming. Given the recent buffs to our dreads, I sincerely believe that GW will not allow the Telemon to exist at it's current cost. a 3d6 charge? Shoot in melee with 2d6 (Possibly max shots by design) auto hitting S7 AP2 D1? Yeah, that is slightly better than intented me thinks.
They mentioned a point review and also (accidentally) let slip that FW would be released at the same time as 9th and that it’s already done. My argument is that logically ours has probably been done and as we recently saw changes why was that not already with 9th in mind?
A Telemon can’t get a 3d6 charge, it’s 3d6 discard one for 1/2CP, lasts 1 phase, and is a host choice (admittedly a strong one), that isn’t that OP. Not sure what’s 2d6 S7 AP2 d1 but I assume you mean 2 Arachnus storm cannons in burst mode? 12 shots in melee, great you’re not rocking a Caestus (big mistake) so likely not doing too much in melee then anyway. I hated bad touch as a mechanic anyway.
I mean can we at least just stick to facts and be happy about the fantastic PA we just received. Let’s go with what we know and put the GW hates us tin hats away for now.
The PA's aren't all that well working with 9th in mind though. They claim they were written with that in mind yet includes stuff that is excelent in 8th ed and literally loses all point in 9th. Get to ignore -1 for moving with heavy weapon! Great. Except in 9th ed only applies to vehicles(which gets it in 9th ed) and stuff that have natively anyway...Only one weapon on characters and bad one at that actually benefits from this PA addition.
Plus GW doesn't want players to buy resin. Plastic instead. Bigger profit margin.
Forge World's prices more than compensates for that margin.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: When 9th was "dropped" they specifically mentioned that all FW models would be getting a point review. They were still usable, but changes would be coming. Given the recent buffs to our dreads, I sincerely believe that GW will not allow the Telemon to exist at it's current cost. a 3d6 charge? Shoot in melee with 2d6 (Possibly max shots by design) auto hitting S7 AP2 D1? Yeah, that is slightly better than intented me thinks.
They mentioned a point review and also (accidentally) let slip that FW would be released at the same time as 9th and that it’s already done. My argument is that logically ours has probably been done and as we recently saw changes why was that not already with 9th in mind?
A Telemon can’t get a 3d6 charge, it’s 3d6 discard one for 1/2CP, lasts 1 phase, and is a host choice (admittedly a strong one), that isn’t that OP. Not sure what’s 2d6 S7 AP2 d1 but I assume you mean 2 Arachnus storm cannons in burst mode? 12 shots in melee, great you’re not rocking a Caestus (big mistake) so likely not doing too much in melee then anyway. I hated bad touch as a mechanic anyway.
I mean can we at least just stick to facts and be happy about the fantastic PA we just received. Let’s go with what we know and put the GW hates us tin hats away for now.
The PA's aren't all that well working with 9th in mind though. They claim they were written with that in mind yet includes stuff that is excelent in 8th ed and literally loses all point in 9th. Get to ignore -1 for moving with heavy weapon! Great. Except in 9th ed only applies to vehicles(which gets it in 9th ed) and stuff that have natively anyway...Only one weapon on characters and bad one at that actually benefits from this PA addition.
Plus GW doesn't want players to buy resin. Plastic instead. Bigger profit margin.
You must’ve seen more of 9th than me then because right now we still don’t know more than a few bits they’ve shared on community.
Automatically Appended Next Post: For what it’s worth I’m planning on running a big unit of shield guards, 7 Allarus, Trajann, a bike captain and depending on how important actions are either some shield/spear guard or my Telemon. Take the Telemon out and that’s all plastic and all good. I might even take some bikes and make them Solar Watch instead of the Telemon anyway, prob if a dual patrol is an option. Our PA made all of our codex units better (save the woeful Contemptor and sure the Land Raider is still a no no) but otherwise Allarus are solid now, bikes are great with arcane genetic alchemy, Wardens didn’t get much on the face of it but they’re no bad pick, and a bike captain can be made so tough now too it’s untrue. I mean, nobody is forcing anyone to play the game or collect the hobby so if it’s that bad maybe just eBay your army and go be negative on another forum? I’m beyond happy with what Custodes got and can’t wait to have fun playing them again.
So what if any impact will the new overwatch rules have on Custodes? I have never really been scared of charging anything short of guard blobs or tanks, and this doesn't really change that. We still need to get into melee to be maximally effective, and this just forces Guard to pick and choose which charge to stop. Still, charging hordes will be dicey, as unmodded 6's always hit and cannot be altered. But I don't see this as a major change to the play style.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So what if any impact will the new overwatch rules have on Custodes? I have never really been scared of charging anything short of guard blobs or tanks, and this doesn't really change that. We still need to get into melee to be maximally effective, and this just forces Guard to pick and choose which charge to stop. Still, charging hordes will be dicey, as unmodded 6's always hit and cannot be altered. But I don't see this as a major change to the play style.
What guard blob is scary to charge?
A 20-man combined squad has 38 shots.
6.33 hits
2.11 wounds
They'd be lucky to do a single point of damage to T5 Custodes. If you're charging in Bikes, cut that in half, since they only wound on 6s.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So what if any impact will the new overwatch rules have on Custodes? I have never really been scared of charging anything short of guard blobs or tanks, and this doesn't really change that. We still need to get into melee to be maximally effective, and this just forces Guard to pick and choose which charge to stop. Still, charging hordes will be dicey, as unmodded 6's always hit and cannot be altered. But I don't see this as a major change to the play style.
? Have you played against Tau or Admech or i don't know Iron hands? The 3 rip tide blob is almost impossible to charge... i think this is great step in the right direction. And helps us not as much as other armys.
I saw somewhere that certain armies/factions were "exempt" from the overwatch rule if they had a special keyword, one was IG, the other was Tau. I thought ok, if tau infantry get it exempted, what is the point? Also the Riptides can still shoot in melee right? So you will still get shot to hell in the next turn. Same with Punishers or any Russ tank honestly. This doesn't really alleviate the pain, you can no longer modify overwatch rolls, so the only thing hitting now are 6's, until that changes, so this really hurts Eldar right?
Eihnlazer wrote: Fezzik im just curious, but do you just hate the fact that we have to use FW competivly or do you hate FW itself?
The custodes book itself isn't competititve because it lacks options.
We get amazing HQ's, durable troops, take all comer bikes, and some gimicky terminators/infantry bomb (wardens).
That is literally all that's in the book. The LR and Dreads in the book are either overcosted or just not all that competitive compared to what other armies get. Therefore we use FW models, which give us some long range firepower (desperately needed) and some faster mobility stuff.
Bikes are amazing, but everyone knows about them, and can kill them over 2/3 turns so they wont win at tournaments. You cant just make a one trick poney list and expect to be competitive.
The new strats greatly improve the dreadnoughts (all of em, not just FW). They also give us more options with our older stuff.
Now we can take SoS to help with psychic stuff which is also a great help.
Don't hate on FW for giving us stuff we needed please.
I dislike forgeworld for their abusive pricing policies, dislike how GW chose to approach releasing and now updating custodes, and wish for more substantial options that don't rely on, well, extra abusive pricing. Forgeworld is literally priced to be exclusionary so rich hobbyests (and more than a few poorly self controlled not rich hobbyests spending money they don't have) can buy it and then sneer at people who can't afford it and man does that burn my buns. That FW is what custodes needs is kind of damning on GW for not... just giving Custodes enough options.
WisdomLS wrote: Hi all,
just dipping my toes into Custodes, I brought a couple of models when they first came out but have only used them a couple of times. With the new edition I've decided that custodes will be my new army to add to the collection and just wanted a few pointers incase I'm doing something badly wrong.
These are my thoughts for a basic list, its about 1750 which I'm hoping will be around 2000 in 9th.
Bike Shield Captain - Seems an auto include beatstick
Trajan - Again, too good not to use.
3x3 Troops - Intend to have one shield in each. Is it worth taking bigger units?
Vexila - -1 to hit still seems the obvious choice and going with a shield.
3 Vertus Jetbikes with Salvo Launchers - The launchers don't seem popular but the list needs some anti tank and having it mobile is likely a good idea with the new terrain.
5/6 Terminators - The new durability strats make these very hard to shift and the built in deepstrike and new strats for double shooting and rolling an extra charge dice seem to make a bigger unit more valuable.
Relic Dreadnought - I own the Forgeworld Spear variant which can happily proxy for the codex version. Obviously the forgeworld version is much better but those rules are going to swiftly change with 9th.
A few general questions:
How do we kill tanks? The new edition seems to favour armour so I expect to see more of it around, I can hit them in melee but other options are thin on the ground.
Without FW, killing tanks and especially knights is tough. Allarus or bikes are your best option without FW i use an Ares gun ship(ridiculously expensive mony wise) to destroy tanks and a Caladius with the blaze cannon
Mobility - Other than making an army of jetbikes this is an issue, smaller tables may well help with this as will better terrain.
Forgeworld - I'm not adverse to FW just trying to keep the cost down as the army is a nice cheap option - If you had to choose one thing with current role what would you choose? (the rules are going to change but they will likely still do a similar job on the field).
I would wait until we know more about the FW books. But right now i would buy a Telemon
Our basic army rules seem a bit lacking, many primaris marines are better than us model for model (an intercessor Srg has 4 thunder hammer attacks!) I'm hoping for a real upgrade whenever a new 9th codex drops, more attacks and maybe a general "reduce AP by one" trait is needed to combat all the AP-1/-2 that is out there negating our armour.
Every army lacks when compared to SM they are just too good and to easy to play(point and click and win).
I actually think Custodes got a big bump in knight nuking with strategems making for easier DS charges and plus 1 to wound. Especially bikes. 4 plus rerolling is a world of difference compared to a 5 plus rerolling.
Custodes did become quite CP hungry though, so I hope everyone's got their loyal 32 until 9th. I mean, if you're actually playing games in lockdown.
Honestly this post reads like you never looked at FW's pricing. It really isn't much more, if at all, compared to GW's modern pricing.
(joking)
