The difference is in the S of their attacks. S5 isn't going to help you in the long run against anything T6-8. That's a big margin. Aquilons are our best unit. More often than not, they are my last surviving unit.
EDIT: fixed calculations based on S10 and AP4, which I forgot
Comparing the two units against the worst targets for Sagittarum:
Vs T7/T8 3+
3 Aquilons: 1.7 Damage in Shooting, 13.3 Damage in Melee; 15 Total
5 Sagittarum: 4.5 Damage in Shooting, 3.7 Damage in Melee; 8.2 Total
Given the unreliability of deep strike charges, it makes sense to try and calculate an average performance across games by multiplying your melee damage by your odds of making a deep strike charge given a command re-roll (~50%).
Vs T7/T8 (ranged and melee, include charge probability)
3 Aquilons: 8.4
5 Sagittarum: 6.4
265 points for 5 Sagittarum w/ Misericordias vs 234 points for 3 Aquilons also, for comparison.
So Against Sagittarum's worst target and Aquilon's best, Sagittarum do 76% as much damage when accounting for failed charges.
Actually I forgot the gauntlets are ap4 and not ap3, so vs T8 the aquilons do like 5% more damage than the sags if you account for failed charges. I'll update the post later and show the math for that.
How are 5 Sagittarum w/ Misericordias 212 points? IIRC they are 40 base + 10 for bolt calivers + 3 for Misericordias = 53 each, so shouldn't 5 be 265 points?
Also Aquilon terminators are str 10 with fists, so they should be doing the same damage vs t7 3+ and vs t8 3+, not counting invulns.
God damn it. My gak is all fethed up. Yeah 212 points is for 4 of them, and yeah aquilons are actually S10, so they probably land at about 30% more damage than Sagittarum vs T8 when accounting for charges. I've edited my original post with the correct values for the calculations, and it ends up with Sags doing about 3/4s as much damage as Aquilons on a deep strike turn, on average. So no doubt Aquilons are superior for fighting T8 on average, but their variance (chance of doing only 1-2 damage on a failed charge turn) is much higher and of course they have fewer wounds/point and less versatility.
So long story short, you were wrong. Got it. Welcome to 40k, where the math changes so frequently it's hard to keep track, and the rules don't matter.
BTW, I'm the ranking guy who's always wrong. One thing I know for a fact though, until the radically alter the Aquillons, their top spot is NOT in doubt. They outperform even tanks.
With my corrected math of Sagittarum being only 3/4 as effective as Aquilons from deep strike vs T8, they still remain an interesting choice compared to Aquilons, given they will have a much higher degree of reliability. As well, they'll be able to take on elite infantry and other similar units more effectively. I'm not saying Aquilons are inferior, just that Sags may be an alternate choice for a similar role that provides greater versatility, reliability, and more wounds.
Saggitarum are great for mono builds. Also, keep a storm shield or eagle eye on your vexilla if you're going to teleport homer your aquilon in. If your opponent is smart, he's going to target that flag.
SevenSixTwoX39 wrote: Comparing Aquilons to Sagittarum, for about the same points you can pick up 5 Sag for the cost of 3 aquilons and get more of the same quality firepower plus 5 of the S5 AP3 3D shots. More total wounds, more total attacks. Quality of close combat is obviously worse, but how often do aquilons actually make combat anyway? Why not 5-10 sag deep striking in?
I played in a tournament this weekend and my 4 man Aquilon unit made it to combat every game and hat a big impact in every game. I really like them.
I like the Aquilons a lot in terms of their equipment/role. They do what no other Custodes unit really does with their fists. The axes just don't cut it for the most part vs T8 3+. Having not played with them yet though, I'm just very skeptical of a unit that has such an unreliable charge success rate despite people reporting that they like them. I'm just imagining a failed charge from them and then getting shot and stomped to death by a knight crusader. As well, does anyone like the Twin Adrathic Destructor on them? The guns pay for themselves the first time you fire them if you're shooting primaris.
In terms of Terminators now though, has anyone else noticed that with the points drops that Allarus Terminator Captains are now basically just as effective as Allarus Terminators once you account for their reroll 1s aura? For the same points (two captains vs 3 allarus) you get the same number of hits (10), but a greater number of wounds (14 vs 12) and more versatility in terms of DS deployment.
SevenSixTwoX39 wrote: I like the Aquilons a lot in terms of their equipment/role. They do what no other Custodes unit really does with their fists. The axes just don't cut it for the most part vs T8 3+. Having not played with them yet though, I'm just very skeptical of a unit that has such an unreliable charge success rate despite people reporting that they like them. I'm just imagining a failed charge from them and then getting shot and stomped to death by a knight crusader. As well, does anyone like the Twin Adrathic Destructor on them? The guns pay for themselves the first time you fire them if you're shooting primaris.
In terms of Terminators now though, has anyone else noticed that with the points drops that Allarus Terminator Captains are now basically just as effective as Allarus Terminators once you account for their reroll 1s aura? For the same points (two captains vs 3 allarus) you get the same number of hits (10), but a greater number of wounds (14 vs 12) and more versatility in terms of DS deployment.
To get a succseful charge move your vexilla up the board and and use teleport homer for a 3" charge. If you advance your vexilla 2 times the threat range is 2x6 + 2xd6 + 6 + base size = 21.5" to 31.5"
SevenSixTwoX39 wrote: Huh, yeah that is interesting. Is that Vexilla a magnifica, buffing your Caladius etc?
Yes i use the magnifica for that. I play my Caladius pretty agressive most of the time. The tanks can also charge something and soak up the overwatch or keep stuff from shooting if it can't fall back and shoot.
I like the sound of that playstyle. Thanks for the heads up, I guess I hadn't really thought of using the vexilla in a dual-purpose way like that. I'll have to look into picking up some Aquilons!
Yeah againgst most armies your gonna wanna use your caladius tanks pushed up. This is because you can block out a lot of board space with them (since their so large) and really mess with any deep strikers an opponent might have (because of the -2 to charge on them). They also only have 36" range on their bolt cannons, and you will want to be using those againgst infantry the whole game.
The only armies you keep them tucked back againgst are knights, Deamon Primarch lists, and gunline marines.
How do people usually equip their Aquilons?
I am leaning towards the Firepikes but I can see arguements for some of the other guns.
The Flist and the Claw both seem excellent though depending on what you are facing.
They are an extremely attractive option! Tartaros Terminator boxes have all the best bits for conversions or kitbashes. They only have one blaster, but they have 6 power fists, 6 claws, and a couple heavy flamers that double as firepikes?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: They are an extremely attractive option! Tartaros Terminator boxes have all the best bits for conversions or kitbashes. They only have one blaster, but they have 6 power fists, 6 claws, and a couple heavy flamers that double as firepikes?
I'm strongly considering kitbashing some of them from Allarus bodies, and then giving them power fists/bolters from this box.
Now if I could just find a way to easily find 5 allarus terminators without buying 2 boxes of the darn things
Am I right in thinking Custodes Terminators don't get bolter discipline in any form?
So in order to get their double rapid fire they have to always be in half range?
I would like to add in a Supreme Command Detachment to my Custodes. I am ponder two, and am looking for some feedback.
The first would be blood angels. It would consist of two smash captains with jump packs, chaplin with jump pack, and Lt with Jump pack. This ball of killiness has amazing buffs to charging and can ignore overwatch. The two captains should be able to drop whatever they touch.
The second would be black templars. Same make up. This group also gets great buffs to the charge. They have the ability to keep units locked in combat.
Both would be used to counter the ridiculous marine meta that I am running into.
You won't have enough CP's to justify the Smashys to their full extent, and your opponent will see through the gold and just kill anything with red on it. The BT I have no idea, I have never played them or against them. Maybe?
What do you fine people think about using a battalion of the new sisters of battle as objective holders and to give us those extra commands points. A squad of sisters isn't that expensive, puts out some fire and with the order that ignores AP-1 they could be quite durable. Their abundance of melta weapons could also help with AT.
Dantioch wrote: What do you fine people think about using a battalion of the new sisters of battle as objective holders and to give us those extra commands points. A squad of sisters isn't that expensive, puts out some fire and with the order that ignores AP-1 they could be quite durable. Their abundance of melta weapons could also help with AT.
How many points are we talking? Melta is a nice add.
I'll do you one better, I've thought about a battalion of grey knights. They can deepstrike, dump out bolter shots and hit reasonably hard in close combat, plus would provide a bubble of psychic denies (at a +1 no less).
Dantioch wrote: What do you fine people think about using a battalion of the new sisters of battle as objective holders and to give us those extra commands points. A squad of sisters isn't that expensive, puts out some fire and with the order that ignores AP-1 they could be quite durable. Their abundance of melta weapons could also help with AT.
How many points are we talking? Melta is a nice add.
I'll do you one better, I've thought about a battalion of grey knights. They can deepstrike, dump out bolter shots and hit reasonably hard in close combat, plus would provide a bubble of psychic denies (at a +1 no less).
9 pts per sister, min squad 5, can take 2 special weapons for squad. 45pts for basic canoness hq, 37pts for missionary(1 per detachment) that gives extra attack aura(canoness reroll 1).
So 225 with 2 canoness for bare bone bat. Add special weapons(melta, flamer, stormbolter) to taste. And you get miracle dice fun with them. Melta squads become scarier to charge if you can quarantee a hit
Dantioch wrote: What do you fine people think about using a battalion of the new sisters of battle as objective holders and to give us those extra commands points. A squad of sisters isn't that expensive, puts out some fire and with the order that ignores AP-1 they could be quite durable. Their abundance of melta weapons could also help with AT.
How many points are we talking? Melta is a nice add.
I'll do you one better, I've thought about a battalion of grey knights. They can deepstrike, dump out bolter shots and hit reasonably hard in close combat, plus would provide a bubble of psychic denies (at a +1 no less).
9 pts per sister, min squad 5, can take 2 special weapons for squad. 45pts for basic canoness hq, 37pts for missionary(1 per detachment) that gives extra attack aura(canoness reroll 1).
So 225 with 2 canoness for bare bone bat. Add special weapons(melta, flamer, stormbolter) to taste. And you get miracle dice fun with them. Melta squads become scarier to charge if you can quarantee a hit
That's what I had in mind, maybe a squad of retributors for some extra AT or seraphim with inferno pistols if you like deep striking more. Small squads of seraphim could also be useful for fast objective grabbing.
Seraphim can also be used to chaff clear. With 1cp stratagem twin bolt pistols shoot once in move phase, another in shoot phase(so 4 bolt pistol shot per model) or 2 hand flamers shoot once in move phase.
Don't recall wording on stratagem could you use it to clear chaff before next unit deep strikes. I could see that useful to custodians if legal
Tiberias wrote: Does anybody still play dual telemon in their lists or is it just caladius tanks now?
I haven't used any Telemons in a while. I've thought about it though; with the accelerator culverin putting out the same shooting as the caladius you can trade range for durability. The problem is that you're trading ALOT of range for that durability, like 26" of range if you still want to be BS2+. If you can mitigate that though, +1 to toughness and all your saves with 6+++ is totally worth the 32 extra points. The fist is tempting with Centurions running around cause of flat 4 dmg, though you don't have enough attacks to solo a blob. As far as their old "anti-tank" loadout, it's just not worth it for me with only S8.
Tiberias wrote: Does anybody still play dual telemon in their lists or is it just caladius tanks now?
I haven't used any Telemons in a while. I've thought about it though; with the accelerator culverin putting out the same shooting as the caladius you can trade range for durability. The problem is that you're trading ALOT of range for that durability, like 26" of range if you still want to be BS2+. If you can mitigate that though, +1 to toughness and all your saves with 6+++ is totally worth the 32 extra points. The fist is tempting with Centurions running around cause of flat 4 dmg, though you don't have enough attacks to solo a blob. As far as their old "anti-tank" loadout, it's just not worth it for me with only S8.
Has anybody ever tried to play one telemon with twin illiastus (or one arachnus one illiastus) as a solid backline heavy fire base with a captain and a magnifica to babysit him and deepstrike another one with at least one fist (or even dual fists) to provide a massive threat to the enemy backline? Maybe even deepstrike him with a terminator captain for those sweet reroll 1s....
Not sure if this is any good, but the concept is appealing to me. Your opponent has to deal with both, which might provide a safer enviroment for you to maneuver the rest of your army where you want them without drawing too much focused fire?
Tiberias wrote: Does anybody still play dual telemon in their lists or is it just caladius tanks now?
I haven't used any Telemons in a while. I've thought about it though; with the accelerator culverin putting out the same shooting as the caladius you can trade range for durability. The problem is that you're trading ALOT of range for that durability, like 26" of range if you still want to be BS2+. If you can mitigate that though, +1 to toughness and all your saves with 6+++ is totally worth the 32 extra points. The fist is tempting with Centurions running around cause of flat 4 dmg, though you don't have enough attacks to solo a blob. As far as their old "anti-tank" loadout, it's just not worth it for me with only S8.
Has anybody ever tried to play one telemon with twin illiastus (or one arachnus one illiastus) as a solid backline heavy fire base with a captain and a magnifica to babysit him and deepstrike another one with at least one fist (or even dual fists) to provide a massive threat to the enemy backline? Maybe even deepstrike him with a terminator captain for those sweet reroll 1s....
Not sure if this is any good, but the concept is appealing to me. Your opponent has to deal with both, which might provide a safer enviroment for you to maneuver the rest of your army where you want them without drawing too much focused fire?
I actually run a Telemon Twins list in most of my games
Usually i run one with a fist/stormcannon, and the other as twin storm cannons. Pop them under the vexilla, and they become pretty obnoxious to shift. I usually keep Trajann sitting between them (Lets them reroll 1s to wound against non-vehicles if needed), with a squad of Sag Guard for my fire base turn 1.
Thing is, 5 attacks at flat 4 damage is overkill on anything under T7, and it likely won't make it into melee with an even half way intelligent opponent. Against T7/8, why are you spending almost 300pts to melee something? Nope, I'll load up on tanks, and still save on points.
I get that we are a melee army and all, but Twin Giant Fisto-Robotos running around punching opposing armies is a bad fever dream by a dev that clearly had ZERO experience playing 8th.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Thing is, 5 attacks at flat 4 damage is overkill on anything under T7, and it likely won't make it into melee with an even half way intelligent opponent. Against T7/8, why are you spending almost 300pts to melee something? Nope, I'll load up on tanks, and still save on points.
I get that we are a melee army and all, but Twin Giant Fisto-Robotos running around punching opposing armies is a bad fever dream by a dev that clearly had ZERO experience playing 8th.
One thing I found that a gun/fist telemon is very good at handling is invictor warsuits, it will reliably delete one a turn, keeping your shooty elements shooting.
So will the Illastus Cannons. Or the Storm Cannons, or the Jetbikes.
But my point is why are you wasting a turn with your DSing Murderbot on T6 targets? Why not go after the Executioners, the Levis, or the characters?
In the words of Ian Malcomb: "Everyone was so preoccupied with whether or not they could, no one stopped to ask if they should."
Telemons with Fists need to be pointed at the biggest meanest thing on the field. From a design standpoint, they are our biggest and best option against Knights without getting an Ares involved.
A full knight list will always be a bad matchup for custodes. If we build specifically to counter them, we can, but loose againgst any other army.
And if we build a generalist efficient list, we have nothing that can handle knights well.
You have to really just hope you don't go up againgst them at a tourney.
I'd love to run my aquillons, but I cant take both them and my calidius grav tanks in the same list in a workable way.
The aquillon termies are not very useful againgst anything other than knights and vehicle parking lots. They are too easy to kill for their points. If there was someway to make sure they had a 5+++ or a 3+ save all the time they would be worth it, but atm they just melt without making their points back.
Aquillons and Tanks are the most general units in our makeup, and they are generally must-takes. You can Sub Telemons for tanks, but you hurt your ability to sub for hordes.
Eihnlazer wrote: A full knight list will always be a bad matchup for custodes. If we build specifically to counter them, we can, but loose againgst any other army.
And if we build a generalist efficient list, we have nothing that can handle knights well.
You have to really just hope you don't go up againgst them at a tourney.
I'd love to run my aquillons, but I cant take both them and my calidius grav tanks in the same list in a workable way.
The aquillon termies are not very useful againgst anything other than knights and vehicle parking lots. They are too easy to kill for their points. If there was someway to make sure they had a 5+++ or a 3+ save all the time they would be worth it, but atm they just melt without making their points back.
I disagree. With FW units we are pretty good at killing knights. I always build my list so that it can take out knight per turn BC a lot of players played them here. Now not so much anymore but now many play lots of vehicles. So the core of my list is now like this
Trajann
biker captain
Vexilla with axe
2 Caladius with TIAC
1 Caladius with Blaze
Ares
That's 1516 points so you could make it a battalion by adding 3x3 Guards/Sag or bring a melee punch with 6 Aquilon or bring even more firepower with 3 Pallas
Do you think putting a storm shield on him is overkill, considering most of the time they're already -1 to hit, and have a 4++ invuln, and 2+ armor against snipers?
iGuy91 wrote: How do you guys run your Vexilla nowadays?
Do you think putting a storm shield on him is overkill, considering most of the time they're already -1 to hit, and have a 4++ invuln, and 2+ armor against snipers?
normaly with the axe but. If i expect a sniper heavy meta i'll put a SS on him and if i play against many SM sniper stuff i'll give him the 5 FNP.
If your opponent is worth their models, they will hyper focus on the flag or your Heavy model. That being said, I make them cheap as possible while still having a shooting attack. Spear4me.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: If your opponent is worth their models, they will hyper focus on the flag or your Heavy model. That being said, I make them cheap as possible while still having a shooting attack. Spear4me.
You know, the Vexilla might in that case be a good selection to give the 'Gatekeeper' relic spear, gives him a whole custodian guard squad's worth of firepower, and good overwatch abilities if he is in danger
I need your opinion in choosing an army and a playing style for an escalation league. My two armies are custodes and IG, and for the love of god, I can't choose between them. The league is escalation, 500 base, plus 250 every round until 1500 in 5th. Missions are custom, based on the narrative, but generally objective based. Everyone has 11 CP, detachments are not used (1 HQ 2 troop minimum, that's it), rule of 3, fixed warlord, no LoW, armies must be built on the previous one, so the escalation means expansion of previous list. Also, units with FLY will not be able to capture - this might be huge for jetbikes.
Do you have any insights on how should I narrow down my search for a list I'd be successful with? Jetbikes are out of the question at low levels since they cannot capture, so it seems to me that I'll certainly struggle under 1000 with only literal footstodes.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Um...IG. Custodes are disastrously weak in lowpoint games. We can't fit a Battalion in 500pt games. IG, Mortars Mortars Mortars.
Battalions are way less important if everyone has 11CP by fiat and the only detachment is 1 HQ and 2 troops.
Trajann + 2 Saggitarum with Misericordias are like 498 and would be crazy durable at 500.
So after being overseas for a year I've managed to get in a few games since getting home, including one with my Custodes. I wanted to try out a gimmicky idea I had dreamt up while away and somehow it worked amazingly.
Supreme Cmd:
Sheild Captain Allarus with Axe
3 Shield Captains with Sword and Board
Vanguard:
Valoris
Sheild Captain Allarus with Axe
Vexilus Praetor - Magnifica Banner
Vexilus Praetor - Imperius Banner (+1 A)
9 Wardens with Spears
2 Telemon Dreadnoughts, Dual Stormcannons
As you might guess the idea is to advance all characters behind the Telemons, then drop the Wardens with the teleport homer once I hit the lines. Forcing enemy guns to shoot at -1 to hit Telemons for a turn or 2 should limit some of the incoming damage, thanks to how durable they are for the points. I still wasn't expecting much success against my friends Leman Russ spam list with such a slow list on a mostly open table. There was cover but no LOS blocking terrain really.
Spoiler:
We rolled for missions from the new CA and played some eternal war scenario. I was attacker so went first. I forget the name of it but it didn't matter in the end.
His list was
3 x Russ command tanks, 2 with plasma, 1 with relic battlecannon
3 Russ tanks with demolisher cannons
3 Armoured Sentinels with MLs 2 Company Commanders
Straken
Commisar
Ministorum priest
Ogryn bodyguard
3 Astropaths
70 infantry
2x25 Conscripts
1 Chimera
3x3 mortars
First turn I ran everything up towards midfield, and in shooting failed to finish off any of the tanks (he rolled 2 6+ saves to spare one of them). My Telemons were in the lead and he rushed the Chimera forward with 1 Inf. squad, disembarked them with the strat and merged them with another daisy chained squad. The Astropaths buffed this squad and then it charged one of my Telemons to tie it up. His shooting left my other Telemon on one wound after I saved it with a CP
Second turn I moved up further while the Telemons hung back, and dumped the Wardens in-between his Conscripts and the Chimera squad. Between shooting and assault they killed Straken, about 20 infantry, all but 5 of the Conscripts, a Commander and the priest (damn that +1 attack vex is nasty). My characters charged and destroyed the Chimera + the buffed squad and shooting managed to kill the wounded demolisher tank which was left from last turn.
His turn 2 he focused entirely on the Wardens after seeing them kill so much. A few well timed FNP rolls meant I only lost 5 and a bit to his tanks, his last tank tried to finish off my 1w Telemon but whiffed a bit, I again had to save it with my last CP courtesy of Valoris.
Turn 3 I split my forces, most of my characters going for his home objective and one tank on my left and the rest heading towards his other tanks on my right. The Telemons killed another Plasma Russ Commander and shooting from Guardian Spears killed a sentinel. Charges from Wardens and characters killed a bunch of infantry squads, mortars and another sentinel, and 2 Astropaths, also locking up 2 of his tanks after consolidation.
Turn 3 he finished off my Wardens, but was rapidly running out of room. I caught and destroyed his characters and most of his tanks and squads by turn 5 and the game ended on turn 6 with him having just his Battlecannon Russ Commander and a mortar squad left in the back corner. I had lost my Wardens, a Telemon (the other was beat up), and Valoris to unlucky demolisher overwatch. Most other characters had lost a wound or 3 to lasgun fire.
I'm just shocked overall at how well this fun list did against what I used to consider a super tough matchup. My opponent made a few tactical errors which allowed to me move up faster and lock up his tanks, but in general the rolls were pretty even etc, and the terrain certainly favored the Guard. I'd never done so well against IG parking lot before even when using Bike Spam. Telemons are 100% worth it even after the nerfs, they held their own in shooting against LRBT commanders in spite of the human shield role I pressed them into. Warden bombs are absolutely beastly at 55 points per model. And our characters have such combat efficiency that you don't really lose much punch by spamming them in place of squads. I'm keen to go up against our resident Imperial Fists player next and see how they handle shooty marines.
Basically hide/deepstrike the characters, then either deploy or deepstrike the allarus depending on terrain. Pop “unleash the lions” and have 9 dudes body-blocking as my characters run around and grab objectives or kill things. I’d plan on 2 of the bikes getting a 3++, undecided if swapping a sword captain out for a -1 vexilla is worth it (just to make the termies more obnoxious).
Call me wrong, but I don't think your seperate Allarus get Character protection just because they are alone. If you wipe out 9 guys in a 10 man guard squad, that last guy doesn't become a character. OFcourse I may have totally misread your intent, but Characters have to be unique, or carry the keyword. Hence your Allarus are just now very small squads.
Also, I think you can split them once, not 9 times. Can we get a confirmation on this? It's the main reason I've never used it, because it doesn't make them into characters, and it can onlu split a squad into two other squads.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Call me wrong, but I don't think your seperate Allarus get Character protection just because they are alone. If you wipe out 9 guys in a 10 man guard squad, that last guy doesn't become a character. OFcourse I may have totally misread your intent, but Characters have to be unique, or carry the keyword. Hence your Allarus are just now very small squads.
Also, I think you can split them once, not 9 times. Can we get a confirmation on this? It's the main reason I've never used it, because it doesn't make them into characters, and it can onlu split a squad into two other squads.
he is talking about using the single man squads to body block while his characters go around. he isn't saying the allarus are characters. Also the startagem clearly says that each model becomes an individual unit.
Yeah that's right. You don't want them to be characters because they are the tanks. They're tough but trying to engage 9 4w terminators before you can shoot anything else would be a pain in the arse for your opponent. Playing with your opponents target selection when your army is half characters is pretty effective as I've found.
Unfortunately for the Allarus they aren't able to divide into 9 on the turn they deepstrike, as it occurs at the start of the phase, so that's off the table unless you don't mind them getting blasted for a turn. Mind you with yet another points drop they are becoming pretty durable for a 71 point model.
Yeah I’m thinking the allarus would start on the board 98% of the time. Depending on deployment/my opponent, I might wait until turn 2 to split them to avoid giving up a kill/first strike turn 1, especially if I can hide the unit.
It really needs so characters who can shoot hard but I’m specially trying to avoid becoming the space marines I hate, lol.
So with the Allarus, even with the points reduction, they won't earn that many points back. I tried to run an heavy Allarus list back in September (?) and it got roflstomped by shooty lists (See: TAU). They are great for character or elite pack hunting, but other than that it's extremely hard to get your points back with them.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So with the Allarus, even with the points reduction, they won't earn that many points back. I tried to run an heavy Allarus list back in September (?) and it got roflstomped by shooty lists (See: TAU). They are great for character or elite pack hunting, but other than that it's extremely hard to get your points back with them.
Your average tau netlist is a rough fight for custodes are the beta nerfs, and was always a rough fight without forge world.
I need some advice regarding a 750p list for a friendly game against tau. What are must haves except the vexilla with magnifica?
Should I bring a telemon? (disclaimer: I don't own any fw tanks so those are out of the question)
I kinda don't even want to bring any dedicated melee units maybe aside from dreadnoughts, because they never worked for me against tau. A couple months back I played against a friendly 1000p tau list without riptide and I still could not kill or even hurt any of his crisis suits (yes he played crisis suits because he's a nice guy) with my warden bomb because of shield drones.
Tiberias wrote: I need some advice regarding a 750p list for a friendly game against tau. What are must haves except the vexilla with magnifica?
Should I bring a telemon? (disclaimer: I don't own any fw tanks so those are out of the question)
I kinda don't even want to bring any dedicated melee units maybe aside from dreadnoughts, because they never worked for me against tau. A couple months back I played against a friendly 1000p tau list without riptide and I still could not kill or even hurt any of his crisis suits (yes he played crisis suits because he's a nice guy) with my warden bomb because of shield drones.
Jetbikes. Target Hurricane Bolters on the Shield Drones and melt them away.
Tiberias wrote: I need some advice regarding a 750p list for a friendly game against tau. What are must haves except the vexilla with magnifica?
Should I bring a telemon? (disclaimer: I don't own any fw tanks so those are out of the question)
I kinda don't even want to bring any dedicated melee units maybe aside from dreadnoughts, because they never worked for me against tau. A couple months back I played against a friendly 1000p tau list without riptide and I still could not kill or even hurt any of his crisis suits (yes he played crisis suits because he's a nice guy) with my warden bomb because of shield drones.
Jetbikes. Target Hurricane Bolters on the Shield Drones and melt them away.
So I've been working on two lists and I need some advice which one is better
I am honestly not sure if I need the vexilla at 750p since it will only babysit the saggitarum after turn one. On the other hand, even though I like the venatari a lot, they never performed very well for me....though having the possibility to deepstrike them and the added mobility for grabbing objectives might be really nice.
With some careful positioning and move+advance, you can actually keep the vexilla in range of your bikes for at least a couple turns. Additionally, you're going to want to be pushing your sag guard forward because if you give them misericordias (cut the spear from the vexilla if you have to) they are pretty decent in CC, and even without it they are decent against tau. You ultimately want the vexilla in CC too, at that points points limit.
That said, I had an idea of what I thought when I started typing but now I'm not so sure. I normally default to always vexilla, but yeah I think your guys are durable enough without it and the ventari have some utility in the list. So I'd go with list #2, but either way isn't bad.
greyknight12 wrote: With some careful positioning and move+advance, you can actually keep the vexilla in range of your bikes for at least a couple turns. Additionally, you're going to want to be pushing your sag guard forward because if you give them misericordias (cut the spear from the vexilla if you have to) they are pretty decent in CC, and even without it they are decent against tau. You ultimately want the vexilla in CC too, at that points points limit.
That said, I had an idea of what I thought when I started typing but now I'm not so sure. I normally default to always vexilla, but yeah I think your guys are durable enough without it and the ventari have some utility in the list. So I'd go with list #2, but either way isn't bad.
Yeah, I'm gonna go with list 2, also because the vexillus with his magnifica has been present in virtually every game I've played so far. It's kinda refreshing to try something a little bit different for once. I'll give a small report of how the game went down afterwards.
Edit: when going against tau at 750p would you consider taking radiant mantle as your warlord trait, or is superior creation always better, even against tau?
Superior creation is always better, unless you’re going against BS/WS 5+. SC always blocks 1/3 of incoming damage, while RM is going to depend on your opponent’s weapon/ballistic skill.
greyknight12 wrote: With some careful positioning and move+advance, you can actually keep the vexilla in range of your bikes for at least a couple turns. Additionally, you're going to want to be pushing your sag guard forward because if you give them misericordias (cut the spear from the vexilla if you have to) they are pretty decent in CC, and even without it they are decent against tau. You ultimately want the vexilla in CC too, at that points points limit.
That said, I had an idea of what I thought when I started typing but now I'm not so sure. I normally default to always vexilla, but yeah I think your guys are durable enough without it and the ventari have some utility in the list. So I'd go with list #2, but either way isn't bad.
So the 750p game against Tau was fun. Wie tried the new chapter approved maelstrom of war missions and really liked the one we played (was the one with disruptive tactics). I won the roll-off and chose to be the attacker. He played a coldstar commander, a bigger squad of crisis suits with a lot of shield drones, stealth suites and fire warriors, so not a very strong list, which in turn made me feel a bit bad that I brought jetbikes. He deployed all the way back and hid his guys. In my first turn I parked my saggitarum and venatari on two different objectives I had to secure and advanced my bikes and bike-captain up the board into cover. In his turn he came up the board a bit to be able to shoot at my bikes, but made sure to stay in cover. His shooting did nothing basically except take a wound off one bike, cause I was rolling hot on my saves.
In my second turn I got my captain and bikes near enough to shoot at the shield drones of the crisissuit squad and then try an 8" charge. The hurricane bolters melted the drones and my captain managed to make the charge, the bikes failed even with a reroll. The captain proceeded to kill two crisis suits. The venatari also shot at the crisis suits in this turn but did nothing. In his turn he flew out of combat with his cisis and blitzed his commander up the field to target my venatari, cause he neeed to kill a unit with fly and figured the venatari were the easiest targets between them and the jetbikes. His commander killed two venatari in shooting and his stealth suites killed one jetbike.
In my third turn my captain chased his crisis suits and proceeded to murderize them. My other bikes got near his commander and had to make a 5" carge, which they failed...with a re-roll.... My remaining venatari also charged his commander, and took a wound off him or something, nothing special. In his turn he flew his commander to an objective and generally shifted his remaining army to score as much from objectives as possible.
In my fourth turn I managed to kill his commander in shooting because he came in range of my saggitarum and rolled really, really crappy on his saves. He forfeited the game at that point because I was leading on points and I had killed is hardest hitting units and the rest of his army couldn't really hope to kill my captain or the jetbikes.
So yeah, custodes are quite good at low point games, though as I said in the beginning my buddy played a rather weak list. He likes crisis suits and likes to play them even though he knows they are not the best unit in the tau codex. Had he brought a riptide, it would have been considerably more difficult. The jetbikes and the jetbike captain carried the game as was to be expected, the saggitarum were awsome to hold backfield objective and provide some firepower....they are just so much better that our regular guard squad in this shooty edition...it really breaks my heart.
The venatary however underperform in every game I play them. I really like them, but their shooting with their pistols isn't good enough for how much they cost....it's just too few shots.....I don't know maybe I am using them wrong, but in my experience they are just not worth it....which also kinda breaks my heart, because the models are quite awsome.
So yeah, custodes are quite good at low point games, though as I said in the beginning my buddy played a rather weak list. He likes crisis suits and likes to play them even though he knows they are not the best unit in the tau codex. Had he brought a riptide, it would have been considerably more difficult. The jetbikes and the jetbike captain carried the game as was to be expected, the saggitarum were awsome to hold backfield objective and provide some firepower....they are just so much better that our regular guard squad in this shooty edition...it really breaks my heart.
The venatary however underperform in every game I play them. I really like them, but their shooting with their pistols isn't good enough for how much they cost....it's just too few shots.....I don't know maybe I am using them wrong, but in my experience they are just not worth it....which also kinda breaks my heart, because the models are quite awsome.
I agree with the low points games comment. The Venatari don’t do a bad job for me. They’re more of small vehicle and character hunting type unit for me. They really do a good job of clearing out forward scout squads and Primaris Infiltrators/Incursors.
To be brutally honest, there is no use for Venatari. They barely do the jump troops slot well, because they cost so much and are too damn fragile for the cost. The point of jump pack troops is that you can bully and harass the flanks. They aren't character hunters or tank busters. They are there to tie up elite units on the early turns and force your opponent into changing their game plan.
They attempt to do the same thing as bikes do, but they completely fail, and for roughly the same points. They need to make them an equipment option for HQ and kill off the entire unit. OTherwise they are a completely bonkers unit that is a waste of money.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: To be brutally honest, there is no use for Venatari. They barely do the jump troops slot well, because they cost so much and are too damn fragile for the cost. The point of jump pack troops is that you can bully and harass the flanks. They aren't character hunters or tank busters. They are there to tie up elite units on the early turns and force your opponent into changing their game plan.
They attempt to do the same thing as bikes do, but they completely fail, and for roughly the same points. They need to make them an equipment option for HQ and kill off the entire unit. OTherwise they are a completely bonkers unit that is a waste of money.
As in all things Custodes, just use bikes.
I thought they had some decent shooting profile on one of their weapons? Otherwise yeah why not just use Bikes?
They don't have bike shooting, that's for sure. But they have S5/6 pistols, at 18 inch range, with 3 shots. Or did that get changed? I may be going off old info. Otherwise they have Lances, which no one takes because the Buckler is so much better.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: They don't have bike shooting, that's for sure. But they have S5/6 pistols, at 18 inch range, with 3 shots. Or did that get changed? I may be going off old info. Otherwise they have Lances, which no one takes because the Buckler is so much better.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: They don't have bike shooting, that's for sure. But they have S5/6 pistols, at 18 inch range, with 3 shots. Or did that get changed? I may be going off old info. Otherwise they have Lances, which no one takes because the Buckler is so much better.
They have S6 AP-2 D2 pistol 2, 18" range.
Yeah, not that impressive. I'd rather take the extra guardian squad, or even a allarus terminator squad, over this. In a army that has enough melee threat, pistol weapons are practically useless. They are worse than useless as a unit, they are a negative on an army. They do nothing well. And their primary job is done better by roughly everything else, including troops.
They are one of our better shooting units actually. A full squad of 9 with a captain is landing 20.66 hits. Againgst anything T5 or lower that's 14.55 wounds. -2 AP means most of those get through and at 2 damage a pop they shred even primaris infantry.
They even do work againgst knights doing as much damage as one of our tanks.
Yes, it blows having only a 3+ save but most of the targets giving us problems were going againgst our 4++ anyway.
I don't think you take more than the min 3-man unit. It puts out enough shots to kill an eliminator unit or an unscreened character. The pistol means that you can shoot into the unit you charged,and flat 2 dmg is perfect against primaris marines.
I hate Venetari because they don't have a 2+ save. But they are definitely ok.
The fact that you have to theory craft a potential niche enemy unit for it to take down shows how crap it is. There is literally nothing it does that is not done better by Bikes.
Also, if you are taking a 9 man unit of these, that's almost 600pts. 750 if you include the captain. For a bully unit that hunts a specific type of elite unit in a specific army. I wish we didn't have an army where we had to justify using crap like this.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: The fact that you have to theory craft a potential niche enemy unit for it to take down shows how crap it is. There is literally nothing it does that is not done better by Bikes.
Also, if you are taking a 9 man unit of these, that's almost 600pts. 750 if you include the captain. For a bully unit that hunts a specific type of elite unit in a specific army. I wish we didn't have an army where we had to justify using crap like this.
This is a good point. It's a very bizarre niche for shooting, and it isn't like 12 Bolter shots is going to be THAT much worse at the job, right? Now if they had some additional rules they might be useful, like if they could advance and charge and still fire with their stuff, but as is there is little point.
I don’t take them because I like them. I take them because I have 175 points and need to fill out an outrider detachment. Again, you definitely don’t take more than a few, 9 is absurd. Their innnate deepstrike and being fly infantry makes them a niche unit but they can be useful against the right targets.
Here is the math on their shooting against primaris marines:
3-man Ventari with pistols: 6 hits / 4 wounds / 2.67 unsaved / 5.33 dmg. 174 pts, 32.6 pts/dmg 2-man Vertus Praetor (rapid-fire): 20 hits / 10 wounds / 3.33 unsaved. 180 pts, 54 pts/dmg
The math gets worse for the bikes if you’re outside 12” cause of the double-whammy of stealthy and no rapid-fire. Obviously the bikes will be better in combat, but you can’t charge into an enclosed building with them. The Venetari also can benefit from cover more easily so they can also be a 2+.
I don’t really like them all that much, and I wish they had a 2+ save or pistols+multi damage CC in the same loadout. But I’ve used them a bit a now and they don’t suck as bad as I thought they would.
Honestly, I've never had much concern for Primaris Infantry, but I play on mostly standardized terrain so there's usually no more then 2 enclosed buildings (0 on NOVA format). You can fairly easily hold more if they're just camping objectives by the buildings (one of which should be in your deployment zone).
If I was playing on a table with a bunch of magic boxes I could see some use for them, but otherwise I agree with all Jetbikes all the time.
greyknight12 wrote: I don’t take them because I like them. I take them because I have 175 points and need to fill out an outrider detachment. Again, you definitely don’t take more than a few, 9 is absurd. Their innnate deepstrike and being fly infantry makes them a niche unit but they can be useful against the right targets.
Here is the math on their shooting against primaris marines:
3-man Ventari with pistols: 6 hits / 4 wounds / 2.67 unsaved / 5.33 dmg. 174 pts, 32.6 pts/dmg 2-man Vertus Praetor (rapid-fire): 20 hits / 10 wounds / 3.33 unsaved. 180 pts, 54 pts/dmg
The math gets worse for the bikes if you’re outside 12” cause of the double-whammy of stealthy and no rapid-fire. Obviously the bikes will be better in combat, but you can’t charge into an enclosed building with them. The Venetari also can benefit from cover more easily so they can also be a 2+.
I don’t really like them all that much, and I wish they had a 2+ save or pistols+multi damage CC in the same loadout. But I’ve used them a bit a now and they don’t suck as bad as I thought they would.
You know what else kills Primaris? Regular Custodes shooting! I will make note the enclosed buildings bit though.
greyknight12 wrote: I don’t take them because I like them. I take them because I have 175 points and need to fill out an outrider detachment. Again, you definitely don’t take more than a few, 9 is absurd. Their innnate deepstrike and being fly infantry makes them a niche unit but they can be useful against the right targets.
Here is the math on their shooting against primaris marines:
3-man Ventari with pistols: 6 hits / 4 wounds / 2.67 unsaved / 5.33 dmg. 174 pts, 32.6 pts/dmg 2-man Vertus Praetor (rapid-fire): 20 hits / 10 wounds / 3.33 unsaved. 180 pts, 54 pts/dmg
The math gets worse for the bikes if you’re outside 12” cause of the double-whammy of stealthy and no rapid-fire. Obviously the bikes will be better in combat, but you can’t charge into an enclosed building with them. The Venetari also can benefit from cover more easily so they can also be a 2+.
I don’t really like them all that much, and I wish they had a 2+ save or pistols+multi damage CC in the same loadout. But I’ve used them a bit a now and they don’t suck as bad as I thought they would.
I'm sorry, but the best use for them, that I can see, is as building clearing infantry with fly. Since the new rules basically make it impossible to clear out ruins with bikes now in ITC missions, these are the next best thing with fly and still infantry. I would love to see them just be able to either A. Take the Sag guard bolters, or B. take some form of heavy flamer. Then we'd have a great bully unit, that can take down hordes/elites in ruins. The current shooting loses to ruins rules, so the heavy flamer would basically be the fix. I would take them if they could take a flamer.
greyknight12 wrote: I don’t take them because I like them. I take them because I have 175 points and need to fill out an outrider detachment. Again, you definitely don’t take more than a few, 9 is absurd. Their innnate deepstrike and being fly infantry makes them a niche unit but they can be useful against the right targets.
Here is the math on their shooting against primaris marines:
3-man Ventari with pistols: 6 hits / 4 wounds / 2.67 unsaved / 5.33 dmg. 174 pts, 32.6 pts/dmg 2-man Vertus Praetor (rapid-fire): 20 hits / 10 wounds / 3.33 unsaved. 180 pts, 54 pts/dmg
The math gets worse for the bikes if you’re outside 12” cause of the double-whammy of stealthy and no rapid-fire. Obviously the bikes will be better in combat, but you can’t charge into an enclosed building with them. The Venetari also can benefit from cover more easily so they can also be a 2+.
I don’t really like them all that much, and I wish they had a 2+ save or pistols+multi damage CC in the same loadout. But I’ve used them a bit a now and they don’t suck as bad as I thought they would.
I'm sorry, but the best use for them, that I can see, is as building clearing infantry with fly. Since the new rules basically make it impossible to clear out ruins with bikes now in ITC missions, these are the next best thing with fly and still infantry. I would love to see them just be able to either A. Take the Sag guard bolters, or B. take some form of heavy flamer. Then we'd have a great bully unit, that can take down hordes/elites in ruins. The current shooting loses to ruins rules, so the heavy flamer would basically be the fix. I would take them if they could take a flamer.
If they're going to have the ONE melee weapon that isn't multi-damage, they should at least have rerolling to wound in some form on them.
Yep can't wait to try that kind of list composition when my Sagg conversion bits turn up. Theyre a decent option for the anti deepstrike strat too.
It just pains me to put Custodian guard with Spears into a list when Wardens are so much more powerful for just 6 ppm more. I've found I can get by without the CP lately when you just take more effective models.
So I need some advice again for a 3000p list where I am going to play against 3 of my buddies at the same time. One of our group has just startet orks and has just 500p now approximately. He'll be teamed up with necrons and tau with 1250p each. So it's basically the golden boys VS a bunch of filthy xenos.
I won't be playing a super competitive list since this is just a friendly game and the ork player obviously won't be able to play a strong list since he just started out and doesn't have the models.
Regarding strategy: the two telemon are supposed to represent a solid heavy fire base along with the standard shield captain and the vexilla. This fire base along with the bike squad and the bike captain are to represent the main threats for my opponents which they have to decide which they want to focus on.
The allarus are supposed to be a backfield threat along with the terminator captain and the terminator vexilla. They probably won't make their charges in turn two because I always roll like crap but that's why I gave the terminator vexilla also the magnifica, so that they might survive a shooting phase. On turn 3 the terminator vexilla is key to advance and drop in my warden bomb who should murderize any priority target they come in contact with.
I also wanted to give the venatari another shot. I said myself that they underperform in my last posts, but I like the models so...why not.
Also I added a vindicate because I never did before and I think they are cool, also there are going to be a lot of valuable targets to snipe in that game, especially with necrons.
Tiberias wrote: So I need some advice again for a 3000p list where I am going to play against 3 of my buddies at the same time. One of our group has just startet orks and has just 500p now approximately. He'll be teamed up with necrons and tau with 1250p each. So it's basically the golden boys VS a bunch of filthy xenos.
I won't be playing a super competitive list since this is just a friendly game and the ork player obviously won't be able to play a strong list since he just started out and doesn't have the models.
Regarding strategy: the two telemon are supposed to represent a solid heavy fire base along with the standard shield captain and the vexilla. This fire base along with the bike squad and the bike captain are to represent the main threats for my opponents which they have to decide which they want to focus on.
The allarus are supposed to be a backfield threat along with the terminator captain and the terminator vexilla. They probably won't make their charges in turn two because I always roll like crap but that's why I gave the terminator vexilla also the magnifica, so that they might survive a shooting phase. On turn 3 the terminator vexilla is key to advance and drop in my warden bomb who should murderize any priority target they come in contact with.
I also wanted to give the venatari another shot. I said myself that they underperform in my last posts, but I like the models so...why not.
Also I added a vindicate because I never did before and I think they are cool, also there are going to be a lot of valuable targets to snipe in that game, especially with necrons.
You think that list might work?
I think the vindicare is going to be crucial for you to crack a solid Tau castle, killing a few buffing characters if their drones are not placed properly will drastically reduce the damage you have coming in. Make sure your telemons are under your vexilla bubble to keep them more safe. If you don't go first, prepared positions should help weather the storm mostly unscathed if you deploy well.
Otherwise, if the Orks are casual, you should be able to brush them aside in assault, and necrons are going to struggle to land tesla against -1 to hit targets. If they have destroyers, focus them down with the telemons. Remember, necrons have a strat for 1cp to get a 50/50 shot at bringing back a character after they die. So your mileage against them with the vindy may be limited some.
Thank you for the suggestions. Correct me if I am wrong but I always thought the tau have the worst targets for the vindicare. Their commanders are not infantry as far as I know and sniping an etherial is not really worth it, is it?
I was more hoping to take out a cryptek or an overlord with him to hinder reanimation protocols and my will be done. Yes, they can be brought back with a strat, but they are so crucial to the necrons strategy and usually very well screened that I feel they are the highest priority target for the vindicare, along with an ork psyker, if the ork player brings one to the table.
Tiberias wrote: Thank you for the suggestions. Correct me if I am wrong but I always thought the tau have the worst targets for the vindicare. Their commanders are not infantry as far as I know and sniping an etherial is not really worth it, is it?
I was more hoping to take out a cryptek or an overlord with him to hinder reanimation protocols and my will be done. Yes, they can be brought back with a strat, but they are so crucial to the necrons strategy and usually very well screened that I feel they are the highest priority target for the vindicare, along with an ork psyker, if the ork player brings one to the table.
The Tau have things like darkstrider, firesight marksmen etc which usually end up being 40 point buff characters to make their dudes triple tap, they usually have 4 wounds, and like 4+ armor save, making them ideal targets. Ork Pyskers would be good too for that.
Regarding the Termies and Wardens, why not advance the vexilla into LOS blocking terrain, then move and advance again turn 2, pop the teleport homer, and drop both in danger close, with the bikes following them in for support? On paper, seems like a fine idea. Beware Da Jump sending boys to tie up your telemons all game.
Tiberias wrote: Thank you for the suggestions. Correct me if I am wrong but I always thought the tau have the worst targets for the vindicare. Their commanders are not infantry as far as I know and sniping an etherial is not really worth it, is it?
I was more hoping to take out a cryptek or an overlord with him to hinder reanimation protocols and my will be done. Yes, they can be brought back with a strat, but they are so crucial to the necrons strategy and usually very well screened that I feel they are the highest priority target for the vindicare, along with an ork psyker, if the ork player brings one to the table.
The Tau have things like darkstrider, firesight marksmen etc which usually end up being 40 point buff characters to make their dudes triple tap, they usually have 4 wounds, and like 4+ armor save, making them ideal targets. Ork Pyskers would be good too for that.
Regarding the Termies and Wardens, why not advance the vexilla into LOS blocking terrain, then move and advance again turn 2, pop the teleport homer, and drop both in danger close, with the bikes following them in for support? On paper, seems like a fine idea. Beware Da Jump sending boys to tie up your telemons all game.
Fair enough, I'll keep my eye out for those tau targets, thanks for the suggestion.
I chose to take a terminator vexilla, because in my gaming group everybody knows what the vexilla can do and they avoid them like the plague. Generally amongst my buddies I am the only one playing a melee centered army (except maybe from the one who just started orks, but well see) so they generally try to keep clear from my guys and especially the vexilla.
Now if you plant a deepstriking termi-vexilla in their backline within some LOS blocking terrain they have two options: stay in the threat radius of the termi-vexilla who will drop some mean stuff right in their face via the stratagem in turn 3, or shift their valuable backline units forwards up the board, away from the termi-vexilla....which is where my jetbikes will most likely be hanging around (if they survive). This approach has worked better for me in my recent experiences.
Also before anyone asks why I took the allarus terminators over the aquilon: I know the aquilon are better in almost every situation, but for this kind of game the allarus are just fine. If they manage to get to their target, they'll do some decent work. Also like I said in the beginning, I did not want to bring a super competitive list.
Edit: Forgot to mention, the saggitarum are meant to hold backfield objectives and stay in relative proximity to my telemon castle to protect them from deepstrikes.
jUST GET 10-15 BIKES AND A CAN of Golf spray paint. Maybe trajann and a vouple boxes of the custodian guard. bam. Instant tournament list BN. Bikes are the only thingwoth it's points Unless you go FW in which case you are WAAC and you shouldn't be playing custodes
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: jUST GET 10-15 BIKES AND A CAN of Golf spray paint. Maybe trajann and a vouple boxes of the custodian guard. bam. Instant tournament list BN. Bikes are the only thingwoth it's points Unless you go FW in which case you are WAAC and you shouldn't be playing custodes
That's one hell of a troll post there. All bike lists haven't been competitive for awhile. Bikes get blown off the board by anyone with common sense at this point.
Actual lists that have been doing well in previous tournaments (recently) have all been infantry based lists with Trajann, one/two bike captains, troop tax and then warden blob, allarus/aquilons and a banner babe. Though the reason these lists are winning is they hide in terrain and force people to play into Custodes strength; being hard to remove and very good in melee. (Or replace troop tax with Rusty 17 / Loyal 32 and some psychic defense and just run a vanguard of custodes).
Supposedly there is a Codex: Custodes 2.0 coming, there's a few leaks of shipping manifests in the N&R threads. But no one knows anything about content or release date,.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: jUST GET 10-15 BIKES AND A CAN of Golf spray paint. Maybe trajann and a vouple boxes of the custodian guard. bam. Instant tournament list BN. Bikes are the only thingwoth it's points Unless you go FW in which case you are WAAC and you shouldn't be playing custodes
That's one hell of a troll post there. All bike lists haven't been competitive for awhile. Bikes get blown off the board by anyone with common sense at this point.
Actual lists that have been doing well in previous tournaments (recently) have all been infantry based lists with Trajann, one/two bike captains, troop tax and then warden blob, allarus/aquilons and a banner babe. Though the reason these lists are winning is they hide in terrain and force people to play into Custodes strength; being hard to remove and very good in melee. (Or replace troop tax with Rusty 17 / Loyal 32 and some psychic defense and just run a vanguard of custodes).
This isn't entiiiirely true. There's one guy pushing hard and doing well with Infantry and maybe one or two copycats. Plurlarity Custodes are still Caladius gunline when you see them I think.
greyknight12 wrote: Supposedly there is a Codex: Custodes 2.0 coming, there's a few leaks of shipping manifests in the N&R threads. But no one knows anything about content or release date,.
Yeah I've seen that picture, it says a production run of only 1530 books though which seems really small for a totally new codex release from GW, even Custodes. If its a genuine thing I've got a suspicion that its actually just a second print run of the original codex to top up their stores. Either print run #2 or perhaps revision #2 fixing spelling and editing etc.
There's a spikey bits article pointing out a couple of issues with the ideas of a second custodes codex. The most compelling one is that the version number on the manifest matches that of the current codex.
Why would GW waste money on a faction that most owners spend the majority of their purchases on FW not GW. Thinking Calli tanks, Telemons, Sag Guard kits, not to mention Aquillons
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Why would GW waste money on a faction that most owners spend the majority of their purchases on FW not GW. Thinking Calli tanks, Telemons, Sag Guard kits, not to mention Aquillons
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Why would GW waste money on a faction that most owners spend the majority of their purchases on FW not GW. Thinking Calli tanks, Telemons, Sag Guard kits, not to mention Aquillons
Because GW and FW are the same company?
They are owned by GW ye, but every FW modfel sold directly affects the bottom line of GW...Listen the the Long WAr podcast. They talk about how th new ITC rules were pushed by GW to stop FW model usage at tables with cameras
Spartacus wrote: If anything Custodes are one of the more $$ efficient factions, with how few kits they had to design for the codex.
uNLESS YOU ARE interedsted in competitive, then you have to go FW, and efficiency cost goes out the window with your wallet. Even Ebay doesn't have good deal on Custodes.
Spartacus wrote: If anything Custodes are one of the more $$ efficient factions, with how few kits they had to design for the codex.
uNLESS YOU ARE interedsted in competitive, then you have to go FW, and efficiency cost goes out the window with your wallet. Even Ebay doesn't have good deal on Custodes.
I'm not talking about buying a cheap army from the players point of view, your original comment was why GW would bother putting out rules for Custodes because they don't make any money and players only buy FW. Having only 5 plastic kits for the entire codex is fantastic for GW because the investment to design and tool up for each different kit is so big, while production costs after the setup are small. Pretty basic economics.
Re: FW - GW aren't solely concerned with competitive though are they. 'Casual' players make up the majority of their customers. And if GW is so significantly hurt by 40k Custodes players buying FW models then why bother writing up and publishing 3 iterations of rules recently to support exactly that? Makes no sense.
Spartacus wrote: If anything Custodes are one of the more $$ efficient factions, with how few kits they had to design for the codex.
uNLESS YOU ARE interedsted in competitive, then you have to go FW, and efficiency cost goes out the window with your wallet. Even Ebay doesn't have good deal on Custodes.
I'm not talking about buying a cheap army from the players point of view, your original comment was why GW would bother putting out rules for Custodes because they don't make any money and players only buy FW. Having only 5 plastic kits for the entire codex is fantastic for GW because the investment to design and tool up for each different kit is so big, while production costs after the setup are small. Pretty basic economics.
Re: FW - GW aren't solely concerned with competitive though are they. 'Casual' players make up the majority of their customers. And if GW is so significantly hurt by 40k Custodes players buying FW models then why bother writing up and publishing 3 iterations of rules recently to support exactly that? Makes no sense.
What three rules are you talking about. And if you can't understand how losing business to the Primary modelling competition in the entire industry hurts their bottom line, I dunno, repeat high school econ classes. FW exists to compete with GW. Right now Custodes are ONLY barely Viable because of their FW stuff, No one is winning locals with the base codex. Unless Custodes2.0 drops before 9th (Extremely unlikely) we won't see any major changes.
@Fezzik Forge World is part of Games Workshop. Saying one steals sales from the other is like saying Ford’s truck line is stealing sales from their sedan line. GW makes the same amount of sales whether you buy $120 of caladius grav tanks or $120 of wardens.
Now if you’re trying to say that people are buying RECAST Forgeworld instead of actual FW/GW products, you might have a point. But that’s not what your words are saying.
greyknight12 wrote: @Fezzik Forge World is part of Games Workshop. Saying one steals sales from the other is like saying Ford’s truck line is stealing sales from their sedan line. GW makes the same amount of sales whether you buy $120 of caladius grav tanks or $120 of wardens.
Now if you’re trying to say that people are buying RECAST Forgeworld instead of actual FW/GW products, you might have a point. But that’s not what your words are saying.
However 120$ spent on wardens with plastic sprues machine cast sprue after sprue after sprue automatically vs resin castin that involves more human work provides higher PROFIT MARGIN.
There's reason GW studio has been nerfing resin units. Even units that never dominated tournaments to begin with have been hit by 300% price hikes.
What three rules are you talking about. And if you can't understand how losing business to the Primary modelling competition in the entire industry hurts their bottom line, I dunno, repeat high school econ classes. FW exists to compete with GW. Right now Custodes are ONLY barely Viable because of their FW stuff, No one is winning locals with the base codex. Unless Custodes2.0 drops before 9th (Extremely unlikely) we won't see any major changes.
The three sets of rules are the three iterations of Custodes FW Beta/final rules (written by the GW40k rules team) which have been released over the last 24 months.
What on earth are you talking about, competition? FW and GW are different divisions of the same company. Your comment that they compete with each other is patently false. If the smaller FW business model was any sort of significant detriment to the larger main GW one, it would simply be shut down to earn Games Workshop Group PLC more money. But they aren't, in fact FW continues to be included in 40k (see aforementioned rules), therefore they must be complimentary. How is that so difficult to see?
You don't even seem to know what you're arguing about honestly, your topic changes from post to post.
with the Recent pts changes to land raiders, does anyone see them as a legit alternative to the airship?? Also, posible suggestion to make viable, make all the different LRs venerable and choseable. Venerable landraider Crusader???
Uhhhh.......wow thats....quite an oddball list. Hide, and rack up points with a Vexilla Teleport homer bomb, and concussion grenades from the captain i guess?
Its one of the toughest armies you can make. However, it has no shooting presence and will have to completely anticipate where its opponent is gonna move to in order to score points.
It's ironically far better at taking out knights that a biker spam list though, just from sheer number of ap-3 d3 damage attacks.
Allarus captains can't use the grenades unfortunately, the stratagem specifically targets 'Allarus Terminators' i.e. the squad, exclusively. No other datasheet can make use of it.
No Vex magnifica for a list trying to be super tough is also interesting, shows once again how far hit modifiers have fallen in importance. With how cagey ITC seems to play of late I'm not surprised you can get away without shooting. In the final matches between shooty-as-hell marine lists there was basically no shooting until about turn 3.
Also not surprised the Vex Imperius showed up, it has been game winning for me recently at it's new cost. The Teleport Homer bomb just obliterates everything it can touch when he's around.
Wow, This seriously forces me to re-think my modelling choices I mean who would have ever guessed that shield/sword combo would be this cheap? In a way, it outperforms Sag Guard, because they likely aren't surviving till turn 4
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:There is a reason why GW is telling ITC that they refuse to sponser events where they film tables with non-GW minis.
This is true. Games Workshop do not want non-GW models on stream at their sponsored events. But FW models ARE GW models.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:Why would GW waste money on a faction that most owners spend the majority of their purchases on FW not GW. Thinking Calli tanks, Telemons, Sag Guard kits, not to mention Aquillons
Everything you buy from FW makes GW money. I'm not sure what you're not getting here.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:What three rules are you talking about. And if you can't understand how losing business to the Primary modelling competition in the entire industry hurts their bottom line, I dunno, repeat high school econ classes. FW exists to compete with GW. Right now Custodes are ONLY barely Viable because of their FW stuff, No one is winning locals with the base codex. Unless Custodes2.0 drops before 9th (Extremely unlikely) we won't see any major changes.
What on earth are you talking about? Forge World is a part of Games Workshop PLC. FW does not compete with GW. Whether you spend your money in a Warhammer/GW store or at FW, it all goes into GW PLC's coffers. If you think that a specialist branch of a company is in direct competition with that company, it's you who needs to repeat econ classes mate.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:There is a reason why GW is telling ITC that they refuse to sponser events where they film tables with non-GW minis.
This is true. Games Workshop do not want non-GW models on stream at their sponsored events. But FW models ARE GW models.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:Why would GW waste money on a faction that most owners spend the majority of their purchases on FW not GW. Thinking Calli tanks, Telemons, Sag Guard kits, not to mention Aquillons
Everything you buy from FW makes GW money. I'm not sure what you're not getting here.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:What three rules are you talking about. And if you can't understand how losing business to the Primary modelling competition in the entire industry hurts their bottom line, I dunno, repeat high school econ classes. FW exists to compete with GW. Right now Custodes are ONLY barely Viable because of their FW stuff, No one is winning locals with the base codex. Unless Custodes2.0 drops before 9th (Extremely unlikely) we won't see any major changes.
What on earth are you talking about? Forge World is a part of Games Workshop PLC. FW does not compete with GW. Whether you spend your money in a Warhammer/GW store or at FW, it all goes into GW PLC's coffers. If you think that a specialist branch of a company is in direct competition with that company, it's you who needs to repeat econ classes mate.
FW money makes less profit though than GW does. Resin has lower rate of profit than plastic. One is machine produced press button and sprues are automatically cast. Other takes human work in casting process.
tneva82 wrote: FW money makes less profit though than GW does. Resin has lower rate of profit than plastic. One is machine produced press button and sprues are automatically cast. Other takes human work in casting process.
Which is why FW are way more expensive than normal models. As a business, they pass those extra costs on to the customer. I'm sure their margins are very similar or they wouldn't even be in business for as long as they have been. Warlord titans and Tau Mantas (or other big ticket FW items) are not exactly flying off the shelves. So I'm sure this has been calculated into operating cost too.
Forgeworld is a 22 year old business. You don't make it that long in the gaming industry without knowing basic economics.
tneva82 wrote: FW money makes less profit though than GW does. Resin has lower rate of profit than plastic. One is machine produced press button and sprues are automatically cast. Other takes human work in casting process.
Sure, margins are different across the product ranges. I'm sure that's the case within GW's plastic range as well. And yes, they definitely increase the prices of FW models to account for the production costs.
But the other user stated that Forge World is in competition with GW, that GW were trying to stifle coverage of FW models at tournaments, and that trying to drive sales of FW models was a waste of money for GW. That is patently false.
As an aside, Forge World models are resin cast because of the lower demand. If you're selling fewer of something, you won't incur the initial costs of creating the injection moulding tools as there's a good chance you won't make that back in the volume of sales you expect to have. An interesting talking point is around the future of FW and its viability in the face of the ever-increasing quality of today's plastics, but that's getting way off topic.
So, how are we all feeling now that the FAQ that dropped today NERFED Custodes further? Aquilons, Caladius, and Telemons got the bat...again? For some reason?
iGuy91 wrote: So, how are we all feeling now that the FAQ that dropped today NERFED Custodes further? Aquilons, Caladius, and Telemons got the bat...again? For some reason?
Sticking to casual play with mine while waiting for Psychic Awakening. Played with them yesterday in a monthly league against an Iron Hands list with Thunderfires, Chaplain Dreads, Repulsor Executioners, Eliminators and the supporting characters. Never felt the decisions I made really affected the outcome very much.
I'm fairly positive the"Rules committee" is just a petulant 13 year old who gets the crap kicked out of his IH army each week at his FLGS. And which ever race/faction beats him gets the nerf bat. I mean, what was the point of forcing us to buy all those stupid FAQs just to nerf us back to pre FAQ levels.
iGuy91 wrote: So, how are we all feeling now that the FAQ that dropped today NERFED Custodes further? Aquilons, Caladius, and Telemons got the bat...again? For some reason?
I don't actually believe this is an intentional nerf. I mean it's a functional nerf, sure, but I think this is more a sign of poor communication or incompetence on the part of GW.
I say this because Chapter Approved changed the points back to the beta rules points, a few months after the August (I believe) finalised rules increased the points along with the changes to the Caladius, Telemon and the troops. It looks to me like CA got published, mistakenly, with the original points from the beta rules. This FAQ then re-corrects the points to the finalised rules version.
Not that this is much of an excuse, but I think we should understand the CA points drops as a mistake rather than a conscious balance fix.
Ok, but if that's true, I want my money back for the CA books. If GW releases a change that invalidates a book they are STILL currently selling, that book should be free.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So, rquestion: seeing as how our models are roughly twice the size of other infantry models, with way more area coverages (Spears and axes), I have struck out on buying model travel kits on line. The ones on FLG are for standard marines armies, and don't even fit my guardians with shields. I'm loath to go to the shoebox method just because I hate having to repair travel damage.
Has anyone found a perfect case or method for transporting Adeptus Custodes around? All Bikes and infantry here.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Ok, but if that's true, I want my money back for the CA books. If GW releases a change that invalidates a book they are STILL currently selling, that book should be free.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So, rquestion: seeing as how our models are roughly twice the size of other infantry models, with way more area coverages (Spears and axes), I have struck out on buying model travel kits on line. The ones on FLG are for standard marines armies, and don't even fit my guardians with shields. I'm loath to go to the shoebox method just because I hate having to repair travel damage.
Has anyone found a perfect case or method for transporting Adeptus Custodes around? All Bikes and infantry here.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Ok, but if that's true, I want my money back for the CA books. If GW releases a change that invalidates a book they are STILL currently selling, that book should be free.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So, rquestion: seeing as how our models are roughly twice the size of other infantry models, with way more area coverages (Spears and axes), I have struck out on buying model travel kits on line. The ones on FLG are for standard marines armies, and don't even fit my guardians with shields. I'm loath to go to the shoebox method just because I hate having to repair travel damage.
Has anyone found a perfect case or method for transporting Adeptus Custodes around? All Bikes and infantry here.
My transport solution on pretty much anything that's not on transparent bases(like necron vehicles): Any random box(I use plastic boxes I get from local supermarket for like 7e), metal sheet to bottom and magnets to bottom of base.
I can carry models upside down(indeed I put on bigger boxes sheet on bottom and on lid and carry 2 layers, one upside down) and even shake the box upside down and models stay where they are.
No bumping into each other. They are essentially standing freely just as if they were on bookshelf or gaming table except even fingers not touching them. Top of that no fitting them to foam slots or anything. Just put on suitable position and let magnet do it's job.
Since a lot of armies already have gotten some updates in psychic awakening, I was wondering how your custodes are holding up so far.
I am asking because I have a creeping feeling that we might be one of the last armies to get something out of psychic awakening (just my guess) and I already have quite some trouble keeping up with my buddies armies.
tneva82 wrote: My transport solution on pretty much anything that's not on transparent bases(like necron vehicles): Any random box(I use plastic boxes I get from local supermarket for like 7e), metal sheet to bottom and magnets to bottom of base.
If you paint the transparent bases you can then glue thin magnetic discs underneath, such as https://magneticdisplays.co.uk/magnetic-displays/standard-range/Mag-Discs-30mm (similar ones available from eBay etc, which may be cheaper). They're adhesive-backed but I always superglue them for good measure. There are different sizes available and I usually glue 3 under the base to avoid wobble. They only raise the model by like a milimeter.
That's of course possibility. And if you paint other options are available as well i guess. Like what i do with rhinos where i drill holes to tracks and put magnets there.
Hmm...that is idea. Could put bases to look like others as well. Definitely an idea. Have to get spare one and try it out. Necron vehicles been biggest things that bug me to transport
Do you think it would be better to split the bike squads in 2x3? or run them 1x6? Should i run the Aquilons 2x3, or 1x6?
Right now, they'll be riding in front of the guard squad who is bodyguarding the Vexilla, so I can teleport homer in Trajann and the Aquilons.
I think you should keep the Aquilons together and split the bikes. Bikes are great board control and still threatening as 3-man units, and a giant blob of Aquilons will kill whatever it touches. You need at least 4 to reasonably kill a knight so you might as well keep them together especially with the homer.
Aquilons may or may not earn their points back, esp if your opponent knows what they are and decides to wipe them out first turn ala mortals. Bikes will always earn their points back with capturing points and holding objectives. I'd go bikes over foot soldiers, especially after the recent points nerf to our FW models.
As to stacking or splitting, I usually try to run at least two squads if I run bikes, because they are so darn good at what they do. Just make sure you have a bike captain with them backing them up. So it really becomes 8 models instead of 6.
Do you think it would be better to split the bike squads in 2x3? or run them 1x6? Should i run the Aquilons 2x3, or 1x6?
Right now, they'll be riding in front of the guard squad who is bodyguarding the Vexilla, so I can teleport homer in Trajann and the Aquilons.
Unfortunately your list is now 30pts over since the Aquilons went back up to 65pts. This is quite a problem for lists like yours, as there isn't an easy way to drop that 30pts elsewhere to make it work. Maybe drop a guard and give some bikes misericordias?
Fixesd, and then FAQ'd into wrongness again. Currently you have to take both at the same time, for 336 points. No thanks, they won't earn that back, and I'd rather take a tank or a dreadnaught.
Can you literally say that it's a typo? Because it wouldn't blow me away if he cost more than Trajann, because GDubs. Also, He alone in the universe swings a spear at S7? Is that a mistake? Please tell me that's a mistake.
Why even put out characters like this for the game, they're so close to plain old generic units it basically makes no difference.
All that cool fluff, I'd be chomping at the bit to make up some cool unique rules for these 2 if I had the chance. What do they get given? He gets +1 Str and a free reroll. She gets +1 movement and an otherwise boring hq statline. How dull.
... these new models REALLY dissapoint and annoy me.
at the very least they should have been separate datasheets, because then at least sisters of silence would have a viable HQ. they dont even have a generic one, STILL!
but on top of them both being boring, they can't even fulfill that? and they use the Talons of the emperor phrasing as a rule.. for THIS?! a pair as expensive as trajan last i checked? even if they don't disrupt anything, that is to much.
Well assuming no disruption you get minor benefits from against Psykers, but then again you could just get a Culexus or an Inquisitor to do the same things.
at the end of the article they mention that their "non playability" will be fixed in their Psychic awakening book. Could we possibly be seeing sisters and custodes merged into talons of the emperor (and finally make it so sisters are aactually palyable in 8th)?
Sisters would give a cheaper troop choice to farm CP, but they themselves aren't really good for much otherwise. I could see two Battalions, with one with Sisters and another Sags.
I'm so sick of the constant crapping on the customer by GW. Heres a new model for your army, it's not bad, but it's broken and completely worthless as is.
VladimirHerzog wrote: at the end of the article they mention that their "non playability" will be fixed in their Psychic awakening book. Could we possibly be seeing sisters and custodes merged into talons of the emperor (and finally make it so sisters are aactually palyable in 8th)?
I think this goes without saying considering the last sentence in the WC article says: "However, you need not worry, for it won’t be long before both factions will be able to fight as one once more, when the Talons of the Emperor join the epic battles of the Psychic Awakening…"
The question is how they'll do it. Personally I think GW is going to create a new TALONS OF THE EMPEROR faction that will retroactively apply to all Custodes and SoS units. Hence the reason Valerian & Aleya don't have faction keywords is because they'll ONLY be able to play in a Talons detachment, and not a regular Custodes detachment.
There are also other possibilities:
- Worst case scenario, this is ALL they do; simply allow SoS units to be included in Custodes detachments as elites. No new rules, no force org changes, nothing.
- TALONS OF THE EMPEROR as its own separate sub-faction with new traits, strategems and relics.
- Best case scenario, as above but also include other Custodes sub-factions like Shadowkeepers, Solar Watch, Dread watch etc with their own traits/strats/relics.
The question is whether they'd be bold enough to make Sisters a Troops choice. Possibly in a TALONS OF THE EMPEROR detachment, but surely it will come with some downsides as well, like more limited selection of Custodes units. I think simply giving Custodes a perfect solution to our troop tax in the form of 50-point squads (that are as hard counter to psykers as you can get) would simply be too OP.
As for the models, at least the Valerian and Aleya models are so unspectacular that we can easily use a regular Shield Captain and SoS model to represent them without paying such a silly price.
I would say with the massive nerfing that marines just received, there may be hope yet for Custodes. With forced doctrine shifts, we don't have to worry quite as much about being blown off the table by marine gunlines anymore, or charged turn 1 by packs of 'stealth assault centurions'.
Just play cagey turn 1 while dev doctrine is in effect, then move out once some of the threat has passed.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Why are we wasting time considering the possible good rammifications of this, when it's another instance of GW gaking all over the customer base.
...Because this is a tactica thread, meant to talk tactics. And since marines are so prevalent in the meta....it effects how we play our plastic doodz?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Why are we wasting time considering the possible good rammifications of this, when it's another instance of GW gaking all over the customer base.
...Because this is a tactica thread, meant to talk tactics. And since marines are so prevalent in the meta....it effects how we play our plastic doodz?
Amen, if you want to bitch about GW then make a thread for it. I know several others that should join you in it.
Im just hoping when we get SoS we keep our +1 invun and get a few other knick knacks.
Rerolling 1's on the charge would be such a big help to Custodes and making axe's flat 2 damage would be pretty nice as well. Im fine with spears staying d3 but we need some consistency in the assault phase.
I don't want to give up the possability for 3 damage weapons. We are a swingy army, we live and die on rolls more than most armies. I would welcome a + to minimum damage, so D3+1 for axes, or abilities; Sweeping axe swing: target 3 enemies within an inch of model for each attack. Two handed swing: on successful wound, taget takes 2d3 damage, takes 2 attacks of model.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I don't want to give up the possability for 3 damage weapons. We are a swingy army, we live and die on rolls more than most armies. I would welcome a + to minimum damage, so D3+1 for axes, or abilities; Sweeping axe swing: target 3 enemies within an inch of model for each attack. Two handed swing: on successful wound, taget takes 2d3 damage, takes 2 attacks of model.
Too complicated. We actually do have a pretty good number of attacks already too.
If they don't move us to flat damage, I'd love a generic HQ that let's us re-roll melee damage rolls (not wound rolls). That'd need a new model though so probably not likely. Though they could make a warlord trait do it. Gets around the new model.
Really? +1 is too complicated? I can understand flat damage being great and all, but as it is right now, every single model we have, no matter what they are armed with, has a damn good chance of one-shotting an infantry character that isn't named Guilliman. Our bas infantry can do 6 damage with spears or swords, or 9 with the right flag, and another 1 with Miseracordia. I'd take the potential over a flat 4 damage if the attacks both go through.
But mileage may vary. I'm not the best player, but I enjoy making my opponent think about where they put their characters, or I might kill them with Terminators, or just a single Custodian guard with sword/shield.
We all know the feeling when we're hitting a squad of terminators and get like 5 wounds through then roll on d3 damage aaaaan: 1,3,1,2,1. Killing 2 models. Wasting all the other damage because you keep rolling 1 damage. Sucks.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ie a warlord trait for reroll damage would be an absolute godsend
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Really? +1 is too complicated? I can understand flat damage being great and all, but as it is right now, every single model we have, no matter what they are armed with, has a damn good chance of one-shotting an infantry character that isn't named Guilliman. Our bas infantry can do 6 damage with spears or swords, or 9 with the right flag, and another 1 with Miseracordia. I'd take the potential over a flat 4 damage if the attacks both go through.
But mileage may vary. I'm not the best player, but I enjoy making my opponent think about where they put their characters, or I might kill them with Terminators, or just a single Custodian guard with sword/shield.
I meant the two different ways of using the axe were too complicated, sorry.
We do have a Warlord Trait that allows damage re-roll, but just for the Captain who is your Warlord. It'd be great if they just turned that into an aura.
So this just me spitballing ideas but I was thinking about how you could make our guardian spears more flexible and interesting.
Now since all our guys are individual warriors in the fluff how about this:
I think it would be interesting if you could choose between two profiles for every model in the unit every time the unit fights. I know that sounds tedious to choose for every model, but we never really have a lot of models in our units anyway.
so you would have choose between these two profiles:
Guardian Spear (sweeping strike)
S: user; AP:-2; D: 1
every time the user chooses to fight with this profile, every attack made with this weapon counts as 2 attacks.
It would make our spear guys better at horde clearing with the sweeping strike profile, which would give every guy 6 attacks basically. It would also make them more consistent at killing things like multi wound elite infantry with the second profile in my opinion
It seems to me that our Sword/Spear/Axe weapons are meant to mimic Sword/Axe/Fist weapons of Space Marines (even capping us at S8 on the Fist equivalent). GW probably wants to keep any changes to following that theme (nevermind Aquillons since FW initially conceptualized those).
Audustum wrote: It seems to me that our Sword/Spear/Axe weapons are meant to mimic Sword/Axe/Fist weapons of Space Marines (even capping us at S8 on the Fist equivalent). GW probably wants to keep any changes to following that theme (nevermind Aquillons since FW initially conceptualized those).
That's a fair assumption I suppose, though if it were really the case, it would be a really quite boring design philosophy. The custodes don't have the model range or equipment flexibility Space marines have, also they are depicted in the fluff as singular martial paragons, the likes of which you won't find anywhere else in the imperium. So at least give them some flexibility when using the few weapon option that they have. Im not saying my idea would be the best solution for this, but I'd like some thing added.
Also while we're at it, there has been some talk that castellan axes should be flat 3 damage and while I'd freaking love that as a custodes player, I am not sure if that would border on overpowered. I'd like however for wardens and allarus terminators to have an innate rule to re-roll damage. And if that would prove to be too powerful in playtesting, at least slap that rule to a character as an aura, as has been discussed already. And I am not even talking about a named character...give generic terminator shield captains that ability or something, then you'd actually have a reason to run them in your lists instead of only bike captains and trajann because they are just simply better.
So in my extremely limited experience, our biggest threat is Melee Hordes (Zerg rush) or Smite Spam (1k Sons, GK) or Gunlines (Guard, admech, SMs) I don't see how adding flat damage or damage re-rolls helps us defeat any major weakness. Right now a full squad of Blood letters and Gaunts can drop any squad I can put on the table in melee. That's insane. Flat 2 damage won't help that. Flat 2 damage and rerolls are only good against elite armies, ( Not even a little problem for us). We need to be able to generate more attacks against hordes, and have more shooty guns. I think spears/swords need to be assault 2, and axes need assault 3.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So in my extremely limited experience, our biggest threat is Melee Hordes (Zerg rush) or Smite Spam (1k Sons, GK) or Gunlines (Guard, admech, SMs) I don't see how adding flat damage or damage re-rolls helps us defeat any major weakness. Right now a full squad of Blood letters and Gaunts can drop any squad I can put on the table in melee. That's insane. Flat 2 damage won't help that. Flat 2 damage and rerolls are only good against elite armies, ( Not even a little problem for us). We need to be able to generate more attacks against hordes, and have more shooty guns. I think spears/swords need to be assault 2, and axes need assault 3.
So thats what I was proposing. With the two profiles to the guardian spear you could either choose to get 6 "weaker" attacks per dude or 3 stronger attacks with flat 2 damage depending on what enemy you are going to face.
A big blob of bloodletters of khorne berserkers killing basically any infantry we have on the charge is another matter entirely. Getting the charge is simply too crucial to melee combat outcomes in this edition. But yes, our guys don't feel as tough as they should.
I think if we had stronger shooting, not at all related to damage, but to shots, we could survive the ensuing charge better.
One other thing is any racial ability that allows mobs to "fight first". So the Blood letter thing is because they can charge first, and fight first, before we've even swung an axe we're dead. If we had a "This unit always fights first no matter what" ability it would go a long way to dissuading horde rushes against us. But I also like your extra attacks.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I think if we had stronger shooting, not at all related to damage, but to shots, we could survive the ensuing charge better.
One other thing is any racial ability that allows mobs to "fight first". So the Blood letter thing is because they can charge first, and fight first, before we've even swung an axe we're dead. If we had a "This unit always fights first no matter what" ability it would go a long way to dissuading horde rushes against us. But I also like your extra attacks.
We do. It's Stooping Dive. Fights before charges. Jetbikes with Hurricane Bolters are the horde answer.
I meant for our Infantry. This whole time we've been talking Infantry. And I agree, Jetbikes are the answer to everything. So, when they are inevitably nerfed by GW for being too OP, the other 95% of our units will need a swooping dive, or easy access to massive shooting.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I meant for our Infantry. This whole time we've been talking Infantry. And I agree, Jetbikes are the answer to everything. So, when they are inevitably nerfed by GW for being too OP, the other 95% of our units will need a swooping dive, or easy access to massive shooting.
There wasn't any rule saying we were only talking about Infantry. That said, it's been over a year. I don't think GW is going to change our jet bikes.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I meant for our Infantry. This whole time we've been talking Infantry. And I agree, Jetbikes are the answer to everything. So, when they are inevitably nerfed by GW for being too OP, the other 95% of our units will need a swooping dive, or easy access to massive shooting.
In what way are our jetbikes op? The problem is rather that our infantry can't really compete with the jetbikes, they are just simply better at most things. Also they have the fly keyword, which is way to good in general this edition.
Its stuff like this that I'm hoping we get as rules for Custodes in PA. Shield Host traits to build on our current rules set. Stuff like, rerolls or bonus distance to charge, fighting first, maybe a better FNP vs mortal wounds.
There is a lot of unbroken ground for them to look at there that wouldn't completely break the faction, but help us stay relevant.
iGuy91 wrote: Its stuff like this that I'm hoping we get as rules for Custodes in PA. Shield Host traits to build on our current rules set. Stuff like, rerolls or bonus distance to charge, fighting first, maybe a better FNP vs mortal wounds.
There is a lot of unbroken ground for them to look at there that wouldn't completely break the faction, but help us stay relevant.
Agreed. Even a simple change like making our FNP apply to ALL mortal wounds (not just the psychic phase) would be helpful.
iGuy91 wrote: Its stuff like this that I'm hoping we get as rules for Custodes in PA. Shield Host traits to build on our current rules set. Stuff like, rerolls or bonus distance to charge, fighting first, maybe a better FNP vs mortal wounds.
There is a lot of unbroken ground for them to look at there that wouldn't completely break the faction, but help us stay relevant.
Agreed. Even a simple change like making our FNP apply to ALL mortal wounds (not just the psychic phase) would be helpful.
Ewwww. Given the proclivity for mortal wounds to be generated in 8th now with Psychic Awakening, I don't even want to consider those re-rolls. I would settle for a "Chaplain" unit for our guys that give litanies: +1 to attacks, +1 to damage in fight phase, +1 to charge rolls?
iGuy91 wrote: Its stuff like this that I'm hoping we get as rules for Custodes in PA. Shield Host traits to build on our current rules set. Stuff like, rerolls or bonus distance to charge, fighting first, maybe a better FNP vs mortal wounds.
There is a lot of unbroken ground for them to look at there that wouldn't completely break the faction, but help us stay relevant.
Agreed. Even a simple change like making our FNP apply to ALL mortal wounds (not just the psychic phase) would be helpful.
Ewwww. Given the proclivity for mortal wounds to be generated in 8th now with Psychic Awakening, I don't even want to consider those re-rolls. I would settle for a "Chaplain" unit for our guys that give litanies: +1 to attacks, +1 to damage in fight phase, +1 to charge rolls?
Chaplain unit would be neat, but we're less religious so not sure how it'd work. Maybe a Throne Room Guard who bellows out the Emperor's insight?
Shield-Host traits would be great.
I have a feeling SoS are our big gift in PA, but I'm currently worried they'll function like Ynnari. 'Take Aleya and her partner and your detachment becomes Talons of Emperor! Replace their special abilities with the following'.
iGuy91 wrote: Its stuff like this that I'm hoping we get as rules for Custodes in PA. Shield Host traits to build on our current rules set. Stuff like, rerolls or bonus distance to charge, fighting first, maybe a better FNP vs mortal wounds.
There is a lot of unbroken ground for them to look at there that wouldn't completely break the faction, but help us stay relevant.
Agreed. Even a simple change like making our FNP apply to ALL mortal wounds (not just the psychic phase) would be helpful.
Ewwww. Given the proclivity for mortal wounds to be generated in 8th now with Psychic Awakening, I don't even want to consider those re-rolls. I would settle for a "Chaplain" unit for our guys that give litanies: +1 to attacks, +1 to damage in fight phase, +1 to charge rolls?
Chaplain unit would be neat, but we're less religious so not sure how it'd work. Maybe a Throne Room Guard who bellows out the Emperor's insight?
Shield-Host traits would be great.
I have a feeling SoS are our big gift in PA, but I'm currently worried they'll function like Ynnari. 'Take Aleya and her partner and your detachment becomes Talons of Emperor! Replace their special abilities with the following'.
So according to the lore videos I just watched, When Gman met with Big E, he says something about how he realizes the Emperor views him notas a son, but as a tool. And from then on, Big E goes onto talk about using the current Echliesiarchy as a tool, and possible expanding on it as a weapon against chaos. So I could see the Echliesiarchy mandating inclusion in and battle with the Astartes, up to and including the Custodes. Thus, Custodes Chaplains in Terminator armor with arcanum maces and plasma pistols. While we are dreaming I would like a pony.
The emporer always comes out looking like a big pringle from the point of the primarch's since they all look up to him as a father figure (which he is), and he certainly wont win any father of the year awards, but, if you look at it from an outside view, he did try at first to be that to them.
His mind is just so detached from theirs, it was impossible for him to maintain that connection for long. It's a problem you get with most higher IQ humans in real life. They can form attachments and even love with others, but cant form a true brother to brother bond with others who cant keep up with their way of thinking.
They become either tools for you to further your ambition, or pets to keep you occupied at the end of it. It's sad, but very true.
Except for sub factions like Death Guard, all Factions have chapter-like rules Custodes, Assassins inquisition, Ynnari are the only factions that don't have chapter tactics. So I'm pretty sure Custodes will get a detachment wide chapter tactic like thing. Probably shield hosts.
These factions have not been announced for PA: Harlequins, Deathwatch, Necrons, Death Guard, Sisters of Battle, and Custodes. So Custodes will probably get new rules in May or June.
what do you think?
Edit: changed: army wide --> detachment wide
deleted Thousend Sons because they have cults.(I forgot that.)
I highly doubt the May-June prediction everyone is tossing around. If only because that would mean that 9th is not being worked on, instead they are working on new books for 8th, which is frankly a bloated frankenstien's monster now, and needs to be put down. I don't want to keep buying books, which are only invalidated 2 months later. Wipe the slate clean I say, Everyone, go back to your corners, and we start from 0 in July/August.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I highly doubt the May-June prediction everyone is tossing around. If only because that would mean that 9th is not being worked on, instead they are working on new books for 8th, which is frankly a bloated frankenstien's monster now, and needs to be put down. I don't want to keep buying books, which are only invalidated 2 months later. Wipe the slate clean I say, Everyone, go back to your corners, and we start from 0 in July/August.
In what world wouldn’t 9th increase bloat? They aren’t going to do full rules reboot #4 two years after full rules reboot #3 (and even if they did, it’s still the same rules team that turbo-bloated 6th/7th then completely unsurprisingly did the same when allowed to do their own system from the ground up)
I doubt we'll see a 9th edition. It wouldn't surprise me if we saw a re release of the main rulebook with all the rule changes from the last few years consolidated into it however.
see: updated BRB would solves exactly 1% of the current problems of 8th. Right now to play a game with IF, you need 3 books, numerous CAs, those CAs Erratas, and several out of print White Dwarf issues. And thats BEFORE you touch a box of models. They need to from scratch, redo the entire racial structure of information relevant to the game. Or make it a living digital rule set, with free updates to core racial rules. This FAQ/CABS is failing worse than Millie Vanilli at a Trump Rally. It's completely butchered the idea and intent of the implementation. To streamline fixes and reduce player expenditure. Instead we have a FAQ/CA that we HAVE TO BUY, which is later invalidated by digitally posted, albeit free, rules, 2 months later. 9th would completely burn all this bloat to the ground, and start over, no more listening to WAAC players questions like "Can you define what the Shooting phase is?" or "Movement does not include disembarking, does it"?
Anyone see a reason to take a bunch of sos even if they get "Talons of the Emperor" keyword? They are likely not going to be troops, but Elites, and we are already tight for points and overloaded on the Elite Department. Assassins can do the job better and cheaper.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Anyone see a reason to take a bunch of sos even if they get "Talons of the Emperor" keyword? They are likely not going to be troops, but Elites, and we are already tight for points and overloaded on the Elite Department. Assassins can do the job better and cheaper.
I go back and forth on this. Jetbikes will outrun them, which makes their aura mostly a non-factor. Thousand Sons outrange the aura, which makes it a non-factor. They really seem mostly useful as a cheap screen (as Bolters squads) for a Custodes artillery list (which was nerfed in the last updates).
Hopefully, we'll get some model releases for them in the FW book. They have better options there.
Since the custodes are going to be featured in a book with four factions I am a little worried that the "only" thing we are going to get is a sisters of silence integration.
Don't get me wrong, finally being able to use the sisters is great, but we really need some updated to our core stuff....
Do we? We are already the best Melee Imperium faction, the hardest to kill at just base stats, we have the best Dreadnaugt, some of the best tanks in the game, the best flying super-heavy, and our terminators not only get free deepstrike but can one shot knights. Our Jetbikes are eldar wetdreams.
Our biggest drawback is cost, and that won't get fixed in this book unless they make the SoS Troop choices, which would never happen. I don't see this book doing anything other than what other lesser factions have gotten. A few meaningless Characters. We need a psyker unit. I would love to see "Talons of the Emperor" to include the Inquisition or the SoB, but that would be utterly broken.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Do we? We are already the best Melee Imperium faction, the hardest to kill at just base stats, we have the best Dreadnaugt, some of the best tanks in the game, the best flying super-heavy, and our terminators not only get free deepstrike but can one shot knights. Our Jetbikes are eldar wetdreams.
Our biggest drawback is cost, and that won't get fixed in this book unless they make the SoS Troop choices, which would never happen. I don't see this book doing anything other than what other lesser factions have gotten. A few meaningless Characters. We need a psyker unit. I would love to see "Talons of the Emperor" to include the Inquisition or the SoB, but that would be utterly broken.
Much of this is no longer true. Space marine specialist flavors out fight, or out survive or out tank or out dreadnought custodes rather easily these days. Custodes need not cost reductions so much as they need stratagems to abuse in the way other factions do and a way to generate CPs. Like, say, transhuman resilience and such.
Also, lul, the best flying superheavy. Compared to... the thunderhawk? Fire raptor? It's like being the strongest kindergartner.
Custodes need real help to compete, particularly against SM and GK who are now better at us in every department. New Paladins make our units into a bit of a joke. Some new stratagems to help us out would go a long way but I’m not sure we’ll see the level of help GK just got. Fingers crossed.
The meta of warfare in 40k from what I've seen, just like in real life, is armor screened by infantry. The only good Custodes lists I've seen have been triple caladiuses, vexillus magnifica, maybe valoris, and some screening guard or sisters infantry and armor. Maybe a knight or two. If you're running pure Custodes, your cheapest infantry units are 50-points per dude, and while they're fantastic heavy infantry, they can't screen. They don't come in bulk like Intercessors, and they aren't all that survivable once some heavy weapons start shooting or when they get rushed by Repentia. They also can't attack, because they're way too slow, even if you spend the points to deepstrike them, a good player with a non-elite army will have their backfield blocked off so that it takes the custodians a turn or two to get into close combat, if they survive long enough. Terminator bombs are just too expensive, and Land Raider rushes will get shut right down by an Executioner or a few Exorcists.
Really pumped for some love, especially as I usually run 3 or 4 assassins with my Custodes as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If Custodes could get transhuman resilience on a wound of 1-4 I might actually cry
I'm personally hoping we get Shield-Host traits (chapter tactics) with a warlord trait, strategem and relic each. Sisters integration is almost a given. A re-roll charge would be huge for us because our actual biggest problem is *getting* in melee.
I primarily want Sisters to be troops because we need to take a lot to screen with them, but taking a lot of Elites handicaps CP potential. Sisters on Jetbikes would be sweet though...
Audustum wrote: I'm personally hoping we get Shield-Host traits (chapter tactics) with a warlord trait, strategem and relic each. Sisters integration is almost a given. A re-roll charge would be huge for us because our actual biggest problem is *getting* in melee.
I primarily want Sisters to be troops because we need to take a lot to screen with them, but taking a lot of Elites handicaps CP potential. Sisters on Jetbikes would be sweet though...
I wouldn’t count on getting a huge number of new models
Audustum wrote: I'm personally hoping we get Shield-Host traits (chapter tactics) with a warlord trait, strategem and relic each. Sisters integration is almost a given. A re-roll charge would be huge for us because our actual biggest problem is *getting* in melee.
I primarily want Sisters to be troops because we need to take a lot to screen with them, but taking a lot of Elites handicaps CP potential. Sisters on Jetbikes would be sweet though...
I wouldn’t count on getting a huge number of new models
No, me either. I pin my hopes on FW for more Sisters support. Bike Sisters are a pipe dream. The rest is just rules though. I hope for rules.
Would it be too hopeful to Vilagors and Wytchseekers granted some type of buff? Extra 4" of flamer range, maybe the greatswords do 2 damage against infantry? Also, the sisters need some form of ++/+++ they are too squishy.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Would it be too hopeful to Vilagors and Wytchseekers granted some type of buff? Extra 4" of flamer range, maybe the greatswords do 2 damage against infantry? Also, the sisters need some form of ++/+++ they are too squishy.
I think it's O.K. if they're squish, but cheap. The bolter ones are appropriately priced. The swords and flamers both need to come down though. Hard in the case of the latter.
If they get more of a buff, like a faction purity buff since they don't currently have one, I'd happily take extra range on their null zone. Right now, they're only effective at stopping offensive psychic powers. If your opponent has a bunch of buff bots in the back, such as Eldar or TSons, they don't really anti-psker well.
Thing is, they are only good at the cost if they are troops. As elites they are worthless, I'd rather take assassins. Has anyone seen any chance they might be troops?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Thing is, they are only good at the cost if they are troops. As elites they are worthless, I'd rather take assassins. Has anyone seen any chance they might be troops?
They're troops in 30k. That's about the only basis for hoping out there I think.
Ok, well, if they become troops, we become broken as a faction. No one has 10pt null troops that target characters and do mortal wounds. So they have to be elites? Maybe a new weapon for the Vigilators? instead of bolters give them Stalkers? Raise them to 25pts?
IHateNids wrote: Arent the generic Bolter SoS funtionaly identical to SoBs?
switching out Acts of Faith for a mini Null Zone?
I think SoS are slightly faster (7" Move vs. 6") and they might have Psyk-Out Grenades. They can also target Characters that are Psykers even if not the closest.
Annnnnd that's it. Honestly, I don't think they'd be OP as troops. Most Psykers are staying out of range of them (hi TSons) or don't care about massed S4 AP0 1D shots at 31" threat range.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Ok, well, if they become troops, we become broken as a faction. No one has 10pt null troops that target characters and do mortal wounds. So they have to be elites? Maybe a new weapon for the Vigilators? instead of bolters give them Stalkers? Raise them to 25pts?
40k wouldnt implode, nor would Talons suddenly become unbeatable if SoS were allowed to be used as Troops.
Right, because Cheap mass troops has never caused an uproar in 40K. Query: would you think a SoS should cost more than a SM Scout or a IG trooper? If the answer is yes, then how much? I think less than a Space Marine classic, but more than a Sion. I Think 20PPM is entirely fair for the hell they would bring in the Meta. 300pt Battalions? Seems fair. May more so than currently 150pt Battalions that we are theorizing.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Right, because Cheap mass troops has never caused an uproar in 40K. Query: would you think a SoS should cost more than a SM Scout or a IG trooper? If the answer is yes, then how much? I think less than a Space Marine classic, but more than a Sion. I Think 20PPM is entirely fair for the hell they would bring in the Meta. 300pt Battalions? Seems fair. May more so than currently 150pt Battalions that we are theorizing.
A SM classic is 14ppm, and a scout is 11, so make these ladies 12?
12ppm, and alter the bolter variant to be slower, maybe lose the grenade if really pushed. Would that work?
as a necron player primarily, having my "cheap" battalion option roll in at 350, 300 doesn't seem bad, but I can see the appeal for a little cheaper if they dont do that much else.
12-15 points as troops is fine. Make the Prosecutors troops and the others elites or just all troops. Give them a few HQ choices and maybe an elite, rhinos as fast attack. I think that works.
How they fix Custodes is a whole other matter though. Codex storm shields and hide needs some work. Shame there’s little chance our FW units get looked at too
How they fix Custodes is a whole other matter though. Codex storm shields and hide needs some work. Shame there’s little chance our FW units get looked at too
Do you think there's any chance we'll get FW units integrated in? We're probably the army that needs those units the most- the base codex is so barebones.
I hope they massively improve our Land Raider. I've always loved the model but it's so hard to justify taking as it's arguably the weakest unit in the codex+FW combined.
IHateNids wrote: A SM classic is 14ppm, and a scout is 11, so make these ladies 12?
12ppm, and alter the bolter variant to be slower, maybe lose the grenade if really pushed. Would that work?
as a necron player primarily, having my "cheap" battalion option roll in at 350, 300 doesn't seem bad, but I can see the appeal for a little cheaper if they dont do that much else.
Their closest rules analog, the basic Battle Sister, is 9ppm, has vastly better rules support from their codex, and access to better weapons. 10ppm for an un-customizeable bolter SoS who moves slightly faster and has the null rule is more than fine. The grenade is abysmal.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Right, because Cheap mass troops has never caused an uproar in 40K. Query: would you think a SoS should cost more than a SM Scout or a IG trooper? If the answer is yes, then how much? I think less than a Space Marine classic, but more than a Sion. I Think 20PPM is entirely fair for the hell they would bring in the Meta. 300pt Battalions? Seems fair. May more so than currently 150pt Battalions that we are theorizing.
50 points for five T3 bodies isnt remotely "cheap" or "mass".
How they fix Custodes is a whole other matter though. Codex storm shields and hide needs some work. Shame there’s little chance our FW units get looked at too
Do you think there's any chance we'll get FW units integrated in? We're probably the army that needs those units the most- the base codex is so barebones.
I hope they massively improve our Land Raider. I've always loved the model but it's so hard to justify taking as it's arguably the weakest unit in the codex+FW combined.
Chances of FW units getting integrated into Psychic Awakening is pretty close to zero.
There will be new Forge World books later this year done by the studio team, It's a coin-flip whether the FW units get better or worse as a result though.
On raw capabilities a sister of silence has no real business costing more than a battle sister, even if they are both troops and grabbing up a 5++ or 6++ from 'the emperors chosen' as part of a mono talons force.
The reason being this - the beta codex battle sisters had more firepower, better anti-psyker capabilities, and could be freely mixed with custodes.
They didn't break the custodes, so no reason the SoS will unless the update _significantly_ buffs them.
How they fix Custodes is a whole other matter though. Codex storm shields and hide needs some work. Shame there’s little chance our FW units get looked at too
Do you think there's any chance we'll get FW units integrated in? We're probably the army that needs those units the most- the base codex is so barebones.
I hope they massively improve our Land Raider. I've always loved the model but it's so hard to justify taking as it's arguably the weakest unit in the codex+FW combined.
Prooobably no FW integration. That will be in the indicis.
So, if we can start decking out cheap battalions, it would be GW abandoning Soup, as now every Imperial Faction is practically stand alone, which is alright with me. I really do hope they become troops, but I don't thinki GW would do it. The SoS cost a lot less than the Guardians box, and GW would be shooting themselves, not to mention their FW side, in the foot financially. No one would even bother buying Guardians anymore. Why pay 500 for the guadians + HQ when you can pay 400 for the Sisters +a SC, and fill out the rest of the points with Wardens and Terminators? I don't see GW making that mistake, then again, this could be a shelf clearing technique before 9th drops.
I disagree. How many of us are yet to buy Guardians for our Custodes armies?... And how many of us are itching to add Sisters? Yeah, I can totally see GW doing that. Also, I’d prob run 2x10 Sisters and 10 Guardians anyway as my battalion. Guardians are still very good units, (especially with some nice stratagem support), if means we don’t have to run our troops as 3x3 mono shields then I’m all for it.
As for FW being in this release. 0% chance of that imo. We’re stuck with overly nerfed/ineffective Dreadnoughts and lacklustre/overpriced tanks for the foreseeable future.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I have 3x3 squads of guardians, I don't see why anyone who plays Purestodians right now wouldn't.
Most guys have all the guardians they need right now, I agree. But it really depends what we are going to get in war of the spider which is going to determine whether people want to stack up on their spear custodian guards for example. Maybe they get crazy good for some reason with some new rule or stratagem and suddenly everyone wants to play them in larger squads because they actually pose a threat.
Maybe everyone will want to play 10 wardens with the new update, it all depends on what we are going to get.
The value of cheaper troops won’t be as much for the CP as it will for the screening to push back deep strikers and charging units. And if that screen can stop a whole bunch of smites too, that’s a bonus.
I tried Bridger Hahn’s double battalion with 25 guard in it, did quite well. I always try to take more than 3x3 but it’s often at the expense of other units. I wanted to try 5x2 & 10 then some Allarus as a variant and then this bloody virus hit.
If we could deepstrike for free... I wonder if that would change things enough for us?
Well given the seeming everyone gets a deepstrike for free rules dropping for Astartes, I always was left wondering when FGLTC would go back to it's oG version of Turn 1. If GK can do a 4" DS, we should be allowed to as well. Also, we need a transport with the assault rule. It's baffling to me that Primaris Marines are currently better at getting into melee than Custodes.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Well given the seeming everyone gets a deepstrike for free rules dropping for Astartes, I always was left wondering when FGLTC would go back to it's oG version of Turn 1. If GK can do a 4" DS, we should be allowed to as well. Also, we need a transport with the assault rule. It's baffling to me that Primaris Marines are currently better at getting into melee than Custodes.
You do realize you can't charge from an Impulsor that moved, right?
Is there a massive difference between what the Impulsar can do turn 1 now, and what FGLTC used to be able to do turn 1? Not to mention GK, or the new Drop pod beta rules? Are the beta rules confirmed or is that still up in the air? I'm just saying we should be able to turn 1 DS if Astartes are able to. Or give us a vehicle that does.
And to the person who says our shooting sucks, have you taken a look at our multi-melta spears, or our HB profile standard issue bolter conversions? Our shooting is not the single most OP thing on earth, but I still say Sag Guardians and guardians with melta spears can earn their pts back very quickly.
Drop pods can deepstrike turn 1.
GK, like GSC have a strat that allows them to deepstrike outside 3” rather than 9”...still subject to turn restrictions and can’t charge after.
You can disembark from an impulsor after it moves, however you cannot charge that turn.
All of those are typically used for Suicide units with high shooting/psychic damage output.
Our issues with DS are part of our bigger problem of mobility and dealing with screens. Since DS leaves you horribly exposed and screening is a thing in any decent list we need some way to drop in and charge that doesn’t cost 3+ CP. It’s as simple as that. We struggle for CP as an army and usually want to tanglefoot something twice a turn or throw out an opportunistic stooping dive or piercing strike so our 4-8 CP doesn’t extend to spending lots of CPs doing other things armies can do for free... never mind using blood games.
Another issue is too many of our weapons are Dd3. Everything should just be D2 or D3. Period. I’d make basic spears rapid fire 2 S4 D2. In melee the same profile but flat D3. Then add a strat to make 5+ hit do an extra hit in shooting OR melee. Might give us a way to use basic spear guardians to remove swarms and still put out some damage to tough units.
Melta spears sadly aren’t really much of a solution because of invul saves. I’ve tried 5 guys with melta spears and they just whiff. Those 5 shots look great doing 5xd6 wounds on paper and then you realise only 2 get through and you roll bad. YMMV obviously.
EDIT: I really think that GW have a task on their hands with Custodes. By pushing SM up to the levels of killy they have they’ve left us in a tough spot. They won’t want to make us OP so they may well just leave us be and make some small changes using the Talons keyword. I at least hope we lose the random damage we have on so many of our weapons. Dd3 just needs to go.
Right now we suffer from our cost, and our durability. I would be willing to go from a 3++ to a 4++ if it meant I would cost less or just hit harder. Right now Wardens have a stupid cost efficiency rating. I wish someone in Sabermetrics could create a coefficient that details per point how effective a unit is. Because Custodes have to be the Oakland A's of 40k.
Personally I’d argue that what really holds us back is cost efficient mobility that doesn’t draw a target and a lack of any defensive stratagems tanglefoot aside, just looking at what either the books that have stayed decent like eldar have or the new marine lists we don’t have ways to heal wounds,have little access to fnp and don’t have strats to mitigate the damage the inevitably makes it through the invul saves
Shinymarine wrote: Personally I’d argue that what really holds us back is cost efficient mobility that doesn’t draw a target and a lack of any defensive stratagems tanglefoot aside, just looking at what either the books that have stayed decent like eldar have or the new marine lists we don’t have ways to heal wounds,have little access to fnp and don’t have strats to mitigate the damage the inevitably makes it through the invul saves
Yeah agree, this is what I’d like to see...
Talons keyword. Custodes units keep Aegis and Chosen of the Emperor.
A Sisters elite or HQ character that can be tucked in amongst Custodes units for cheapish psychic defence.
New Vexilla: Gives all units within 6” 5+++ (can be buffed to 12” for 1CP)
New Strat: 2CP - that unit halves all damage taken to a min of 1.
New Strat: 1CP- Shooting from spear, sword, axe. Each 4+ to hit does 2 hits & each 6 to hit does 3 hits.
New Strat: 1CP - Spears forgo +1S, -3Ap D3 (cos it should be flat 3 now) for double the amount of attacks at S user AP1 D1.
New Strat: 3CP - unit can move, advance, and charge
Bringers of Emperors Justice: 6+ all units, 4+ Chaos keyword
Vexilla Teleporter Homer: 1CP per unit
I like it all except spears. We already have less then expected results from most guardian attacks, let's not completely nerf them. Also, at that point, what is the benefit of spears over sword/shield. 6 attacks per model would be hilariously broken for Wardens.
I can proffer this strat I saw suggested for Custodes, anti-horde needs:
"Rise to the occaision" - 3CP. In the fight phase, the chosen Custodes non-HQ Infantry unit gets an extra ammount of attacks equal to the difference in the number of models between the attacking and the defending unit."
This would make a single Guardian with a spear get 19 extra attacks against say, a Cultist blob. But to be fair, A Single custodian could, can, and routinely does, destroy entire groups of cultists/traitor guard, or zenos.
I'd suggest same like Cyclone melta? for Leviathans or the other weapon so 1 additional attack for each 5 models in enemy unit. With fresh ork mob that would be 6 additional attacks... more realistic for GW, or even 1 per each 10 models...
Lol, giving them extra attacks for the difference in models would be too broken. 6 guard vs 30 ork boyz would get what... 162 attacks!? No that won’t work. The idea of +1 attack per every 5-10 models would work though as a 1CP strat.
My idea behind the spear was that they could have two profiles for melee. One that we’re familiar with S+1 AP3 D2 or D3 (just not Dd3) and then a weaker one that does more attacks (S-user AP1 D1). Sword and shield would still have their place for the 3++ and being able to shoot in combat - let’s be honest if we could take spear and shield we would.
I actually think we need something solid for defence besides a FNP Vexilla. Maybe a way to get -1 to wound like Harlequins can get. A Wardlord trait or Vexilla that gave all incoming wounds -1 to wound would be good.
Also as it stands right now mortal wounds are just far too powerful against us. Those new Ork bombers are sick, 3 mortal wounds to all units within 6” just murders Custodes.
As much as I'd love a change to the damage of our melee weapons, I just can't see this happening. Have any of the other PA books fundamentally changed weapon rules on an army-wide scale?
If we get rules for different shield hosts, there's scope for it. A trait for +1 damage to melee weapons, for example. If there were other options, such as improved resistance to shooting or mortal wounds, and something that increases the speed of infantry, then it would create some legitimate choices between the traits. Again, I'm hopeful for something like this but I don't think it's particularly likely.
Realistically, we'll get some form of Talons rule (which will make SoS troops if we're lucky), some extra stratagems, and maybe some new warlord traits. Anything beyond that is just pipe dreaming at this point, given how underwhelming some of the other updates have been.
Sure, some factions have got good, comprehensive rules (GK and Eldar, for example), but most of them haven't added enough to change the overall competitiveness of the faction. In the interest of avoiding disappointment, I'm limiting my expectations.
Robtype0 wrote: As much as I'd love a change to the damage of our melee weapons, I just can't see this happening. Have any of the other PA books fundamentally changed weapon rules on an army-wide scale?
If we get rules for different shield hosts, there's scope for it. A trait for +1 damage to melee weapons, for example. If there were other options, such as improved resistance to shooting or mortal wounds, and something that increases the speed of infantry, then it would create some legitimate choices between the traits. Again, I'm hopeful for something like this but I don't think it's particularly likely.
Realistically, we'll get some form of Talons rule (which will make SoS troops if we're lucky), some extra stratagems, and maybe some new warlord traits. Anything beyond that is just pipe dreaming at this point, given how underwhelming some of the other updates have been.
Sure, some factions have got good, comprehensive rules (GK and Eldar, for example), but most of them haven't added enough to change the overall competitiveness of the faction. In the interest of avoiding disappointment, I'm limiting my expectations.
Agreed I find it highly unlikely they’ll change any weapon profiles, statlines point costs and I doubt we’ll get warlord traits either but what we will get, stratagems and relics should assuming it’s not all sisters related give us a pretty solid boost, we have some very good stratagems and relics but most are way too niche to consider using regularly, likewise even updating our special rules to include dreads and tanks would give the book a pretty decent bump
It bothers me heavily that from some inane reason we don’t have a single assault weapon profile on any of our bikes or tanks. Likewise confused as to why we can’t have multiple weapon profiles for all of our equipment, we have a small range of models and haven’t been an army long, it feels like gw and forgeworld both missed the boat, if you won’t make a unit without it having a model, and have a small range make weapons with lots of profiles that look the same
iGuy91 wrote: The Melta missiles on bikes really only need a small overhaul to be useful
Change both to Assault from Heavy
Melta goes to d3 shots
The Flakkburst missiles go to 2d3 shots.
This is a really good point. I have never used anything other than hurricane bolters, and the one time I played against someone who did, it was only because he'd modelled them that way before reading the rules!
The codex is really hurting for proper anti-armour weaponry (and no, the land raider doesn't count). Of course FW brings some options, but I'm of the opinion that a faction shouldn't have to rely on FW units in order to be viable. They should be interesting units with awesome models that add flavour and options, not the crutch that holds up the entire book.
I would love to see Custodians get some buffs to flags? The Flag is really the backbone of any Custodes infantry force what if for 1 CP you can change the Vexhilla to any of the 3? And buff the 3?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I would love to see Custodians get some buffs to flags? The Flag is really the backbone of any Custodes infantry force what if for 1 CP you can change the Vexhilla to any of the 3? And buff the 3?
I'd say, having a base effect, and then maybe stratagems to buff that effect would be neat. But more synergy with the banners would be nice
1 CP to give 5+ FNP for a phase to models within 6 inches, or something like that.
1 CP to allow all units within 6 to reroll charges
1 CP to give units within 6 inches 2 additional attacks per model
I also would love to see bikes advance and charge. It just makes too much sense.
I also love the idea of playing more with tanglefoot weapons. call me a loser but I love our terminators. I would love to see some form of tanglefoot strat on more than just terminators. If we can't get the charge off, we should at least be able to lock people down.
Fluff-wise and aesthetics wise, infantry is easily the best thing about the Custodes, but in my opinion they're just not worth it compared to armor+chaff, even if they get buffed. I hope Venerable Land Raiders get a point reduction and bikes get an advance+charge. If terminators get a point reduction terminator blobs might become viable, but they'd need a serious point reduction.
"Always ready for Duty": Prior to game start spend 2 CP per unit case on. This Custodes Unit will always fight first in the Fight Phase if the unit had a successful charge.
It would boost our ability to do damage in melee before getting creamed by mobs, and it would be fairly unbroken. I mean the most broken thing you could do is a trio of 3 Terminator squads, but that's 6CP and god nows how many points for basically the hope that they get off a charge. The bikes already have it kinda with Swooping dive, but What do you guys think?
"Always ready for Duty": Prior to game start spend 2 CP per unit case on. This Custodes Unit will always fight first in the Fight Phase if the unit had a successful charge.
It would boost our ability to do damage in melee before getting creamed by mobs, and it would be fairly unbroken. I mean the most broken thing you could do is a trio of 3 Terminator squads, but that's 6CP and god nows how many points for basically the hope that they get off a charge. The bikes already have it kinda with Swooping dive, but What do you guys think?
I think for 1 CP that might see use.
I’ve been really mulling this over and I’ve come to a conclusion. Custodes needs 3 things...
1) Aegis = 5++ inv and 5++ against all mortal wounds or wounds caused by psychic powers.
2) The Emperors Chosen = +1 inv and a battleforged talons army get +3 CP 3) some cool strats to mitigate incoming damage and make us hit better along with random shots/damage going and some weapons rewritten.
Sisters as troops would be cool too.
5+++ against all mortals and psychic powers would be so welcome and more CPs is so what we need. We have some of the best strats in the game right now, it’s CPs we sorely lack.
"Always ready for Duty": Prior to game start spend 2 CP per unit case on. This Custodes Unit will always fight first in the Fight Phase if the unit had a successful charge.
It would boost our ability to do damage in melee before getting creamed by mobs, and it would be fairly unbroken. I mean the most broken thing you could do is a trio of 3 Terminator squads, but that's 6CP and god nows how many points for basically the hope that they get off a charge. The bikes already have it kinda with Swooping dive, but What do you guys think?
Sounds a bit steep and fairly corner case seeing as you're commuting the 2CP in advance whereas interrupt CPs are allocated ad-hoc. You're also telehraphing which units have the ability, so unless it's Terminators the enemy can focus down those units first at range...
So I know this is old, but for the Impulsor Charge, I thought this was still the rule:
BRB update 1.6
Q. The rules for reinforcements say that when a unit is set up
on the battlefield as reinforcements, it cannot move or Advance
further that turn, but can otherwise act normally (shoot,
charge, etc.).
Can such a unit make a charge move? Can it pile in
and consolidate?
A: Yes to both questions – the unit can declare a charge
and make a charge move, and if it is chosen to fight, it
can pile in and consolidate.
I hate to sound like Bacon Cat bug here, but what is the argument against saying that the devs clearly wanted units from off map (Reinforcments or disembarking) to be allowed to shoot, move( pile in/consolidate), and charge? Was this addressed in a recent FAQ? Honestly asking here, because I'm seeing people move, disembark, Shoot, charge.
To clarify, disembarking is not coming in from reserves, therefore normally you can hop out of a party bus and go to town. The Impulsor disallows said festivities specifically because it allows for disembarkation after movement.
So does coming out of a drop pod count as reserves or disembarking? Not that it matters to custodes, but I clearly seem to have reinforcements confused. I always thought any unit that comes from off the map onto the map counts as a reinforcement. Which is why the argument came about for taking a -1 to heavy weapons for Devs getting out of drop pods, because they count as having moved right? Thank you to anyone who clears this up, but this has to be one of the most confusing aspects of 40k for me. And I run a charity org that teaches kids with learning disabilities how to play DND.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So does coming out of a drop pod count as reserves or disembarking? Not that it matters to custodes, but I clearly seem to have reinforcements confused. I always thought any unit that comes from off the map onto the map counts as a reinforcement. Which is why the argument came about for taking a -1 to heavy weapons for Devs getting out of drop pods, because they count as having moved right? Thank you to anyone who clears this up, but this has to be one of the most confusing aspects of 40k for me. And I run a charity org that teaches kids with learning disabilities how to play DND.
Pods are a transport. Getting out of them is disembarking. Their datasheet explicitly forces a disembark when the pod arrives in fact. The pod arriving is coming in from reserves. Its why things like Auspex Scan or Forewarned can attack the pod, but not the lads getting out of it.
"Always ready for Duty": Prior to game start spend 2 CP per unit case on. This Custodes Unit will always fight first in the Fight Phase if the unit had a successful charge.
It would boost our ability to do damage in melee before getting creamed by mobs, and it would be fairly unbroken. I mean the most broken thing you could do is a trio of 3 Terminator squads, but that's 6CP and god nows how many points for basically the hope that they get off a charge. The bikes already have it kinda with Swooping dive, but What do you guys think?
So, what do you guys think about the trailer for war of the spider.
I am really trying to stay positive, but with that last shot of the trailer I am quite worried that custodes will get the short end of the stick in the lore department, especially considering how moronic some of the psychic awakening lore has been written so far.
I really fear that they will pull some chaos custodes out of their asses or something along those lines.
Badly written lore doesn't bother some people as much as it does bother myself, but my greatest worry is that we'll also just be a sidenote in the rules department.
Slap together custodes and sisters of silence so they have the talons keyword and can be selected in the same detachment without penalty and call it a day....maybe give the sisters 2-3 new strats and a relic...
I'd really like to be proven wrong here, cause our golden boys definitely could use some love.
The cynic inside me thinks the only thing we’ll get is a few minor tweaks and the addition of Sisters, and the book will only really be packed full of Fabius Bile goodies to quickly sell a new sub-faction to people.
We’re 100% getting shafted in the fluff too, you can tell by the video. The fact the the Custoded are said to be the ones outnumbering is a joke.
"Always ready for Duty": Prior to game start spend 2 CP per unit case on. This Custodes Unit will always fight first in the Fight Phase if the unit had a successful charge.
It would boost our ability to do damage in melee before getting creamed by mobs, and it would be fairly unbroken. I mean the most broken thing you could do is a trio of 3 Terminator squads, but that's 6CP and god nows how many points for basically the hope that they get off a charge. The bikes already have it kinda with Swooping dive, but What do you guys think?
Mobs aren't really a problem for melee Custodes
120 ork boyz beg to disagree. Never won against that list
"Always ready for Duty": Prior to game start spend 2 CP per unit case on. This Custodes Unit will always fight first in the Fight Phase if the unit had a successful charge.
It would boost our ability to do damage in melee before getting creamed by mobs, and it would be fairly unbroken. I mean the most broken thing you could do is a trio of 3 Terminator squads, but that's 6CP and god nows how many points for basically the hope that they get off a charge. The bikes already have it kinda with Swooping dive, but What do you guys think?
Mobs aren't really a problem for melee Custodes
120 ork boyz beg to disagree. Never won against that list
120 boys is not that much If you postion well and use tangle foot grenade. my list can shoot 60 normal boys i 1 turn.
"Always ready for Duty": Prior to game start spend 2 CP per unit case on. This Custodes Unit will always fight first in the Fight Phase if the unit had a successful charge.
It would boost our ability to do damage in melee before getting creamed by mobs, and it would be fairly unbroken. I mean the most broken thing you could do is a trio of 3 Terminator squads, but that's 6CP and god nows how many points for basically the hope that they get off a charge. The bikes already have it kinda with Swooping dive, but What do you guys think?
Mobs aren't really a problem for melee Custodes
120 ork boyz beg to disagree. Never won against that list
My friend plays 150 boyz. We can’t shoot them off the board, we can’t screen them out. So... The only thing I can think of is to have a double battalion of as many Custodian Guard as possible mixed as shields and spears and tanglefoot twice every-turn. Hope for anything except Dawn of War deployment and use Champion of the Imperium Warlord trait to heroically intervene as much as possible to mess up their movement and Counter Offensive & Indomitable Guardians to hit out of sequence whenever possible. It’s still probably impossible for us to win but I was going to try before the coronavirus lockdown.
Yeah between Hurricane bolters, Dakka telemons and Wardens with +1 attack banner I have never had issues with hordes of any kind. Guardsmen, poxwalkers, boyz, GSC all melt pretty fast. The issue for me that actually requries thought is how to deal with the big guns or mortal wound spam that sits behind it all.
show me a tournament list that has bikes, dakkanauts, wardens and the attack flag.
Custodes come in two play styles, melee infantry that lean on terminators and trajaan,
Or shooty lists that lean on Trajaan and tanks. Hardly anyone uses the dakka nauts now, given their return on cost ratio.
Mob lists overwhelm Custodesm plain and simple. My friend runs lists of bloodletters bombs and DPs. You can either loose on points or lose on getting bombed off the map turn 2 by 30-50 screaming daemons with 61A WS2+ S6 AP-3 1D(2D). Oh and they get death to the False Emperor, and they can fight twice. Show me a Custodes unit that survives 122 attacks with DTFE.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: show me a tournament list that has bikes, dakkanauts, wardens and the attack flag.
Custodes come in two play styles, melee infantry that lean on terminators and trajaan,
Or shooty lists that lean on Trajaan and tanks. Hardly anyone uses the dakka nauts now, given their return on cost ratio.
Mob lists overwhelm Custodesm plain and simple. My friend runs lists of bloodletters bombs and DPs. You can either loose on points or lose on getting bombed off the map turn 2 by 30-50 screaming daemons with 61A WS2+ S6 AP-3 1D(2D). Oh and they get death to the False Emperor, and they can fight twice. Show me a Custodes unit that survives 122 attacks with DTFE.
That's moving the goalposts, we were talking about Ork boyz who have little to no AP on their CC attacks.
But on the subject of bloodletter bombs...of course you cant survive that amount of attacks, so you screen, you tanglefoot, and shoot them to death. The "tank list" you talk about has a huge number of shots, plus -2 to charge in spades and is probably also running (you guessed it) bikes. Let a pallas or even a 3-man guard squad eat the charge when they come in from deepstrike, then shoot the bloodletters to death. Even if you're running pure infantry, a full Sag Guard squad with Ever Vigilant will make a dent when they come out of deepstrike.
No one's saying you won't take casualties, but against a an army like that winning is still possible. It just might be a close game.
And finally, show me a tournament Custodeslist that wins...period. Custodes got largely exterminated by Space Marines like everyone else, and we haven't had a lot of big events since the FAQ. Plus, with the rise of the other formerly downtrodden faction we all play (Grey Knights), a lot of people aren't even trying to make those lists.
Bikes aren’t stopping 120-150 Orks. They just tellyport & da jump 2 units of 30 and then you’re in trouble. If they were we would see them as a viable build in the meta more, they’ve not been popular for a while now. Nearly 100 points each is just too much but GW won’t budge on their cost.
And arguments about meta aside that’s just the point @spartacus. Most of these horde builds can throw out insane levels of moral wounds. Mortal wounds are just too powerful against us. Those Ork burnerbombers or smites really are our Achilles heel.
If we want any hope moving forward we need something to mitigate mortal wounds and psychics.
We can kind of mitigate psychics, and you can always throw in an inquisitor or something. I hope Assassins get some nice buffs in war of the spider, because a few eversors thins out an work horde quite nicely. The only problem is that they're not usually worth their 95 if you have to try to deepstrike them, so I can't generally justify taking 2 or 3, much less 1
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Mob lists overwhelm Custodesm plain and simple. My friend runs lists of bloodletters bombs and DPs. You can either loose on points or lose on getting bombed off the map turn 2 by 30-50 screaming daemons with 61A WS2+ S6 AP-3 1D(2D). Oh and they get death to the False Emperor, and they can fight twice. Show me a Custodes unit that survives 122 attacks with DTFE.
Daemons don't actually have Death to the False Emperor.
Malefic666 wrote: Bikes aren’t stopping 120-150 Orks. They just tellyport & da jump 2 units of 30 and then you’re in trouble.
I don't have the math here for ork boyz specifically, but 120 WS3+ S4 AP0 attacks do just 4.44 wounds to T5/6 2+. Power Clawz on the Nob will hurt more, but in general even enormous amounts of AP0 doesn't hurt 2+ saves.
Here's how that event you described likely goes down: Tanglefoot 1 of the mobs, swooping dive the other. Now there are fewer boyz attacking in the 1 squad that made the charge, and the other squad of 30 is hanging out for you to shoot/assault next turn. And as I mentioned before, 3 bikes kills 20 a turn in rapid-fire range, which equates to 120 dead boyz from their shooting alone by turn 6. Not saying that Orks aren't a threat, but the boyz are an easy problem to solve. It's mek gunz, burna bombers, and SAQ Meks that are going to cause you problems.
Malefic666 wrote: If they were we would see them as a viable build in the meta more, they’ve not been popular for a while now. Nearly 100 points each is just too much but GW won’t budge on their cost.
Let me be absolutely clear: They haven't been a viable build ONLY BECAUSE OF SPACE MARINES. The Caladius nerf happened roughly the same time SM 2.0 dropped, and Iron Hands stalker bolt rifles are an almost perfect tool to kill bikes with. The reason people switched to pure infantry isn't because bikes are bad, it's because the only way to survive Space Marine firepower was to hide out of LOS. And thanks to ITC terrain rules, Custodes infantry can try to play the objective game and bully/trade with infantry that try and climb into their ruin with them. That's it, plain and simple. Now that you don't have to fight through 6 turns of devastator doctrine, you're already seeing other armies (mainly Astra Militarium and Eldar) taking "un-hideable" things like vehicles again and doing well. You have options other than "hide", and I'm sure that you're going to see a swing back towards "killing" rather than just trying to survive for 6 turns across the board. For Custodes, a lot will depend on what they get in psychic awakening.
Well yeah, I stopped using bikes when I just couldn’t beat Eldar flying spam & I’ve only ever managed a win against IH once, even now they’re not devastator doctrine all game they’re still so good. But yeah I’d absolutely love to get bikes on the table again and even more so if they were viable to bring to a tournament or just against all comers. Bikes can’t tanglefoot so I still think they need to be played carefully/defensively with good Vexilla/Trajann placement.
Well yeah, anything we get given is going to help us. Personally I find extra damage to be the worst boost to us because it’s usually the least of my worries, I’d do dirty things to get access stratagems that all the marines get like more relics,extra traits and those defensive stratagems, transhuman,duty eternal, the tank mortal wound save,
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: show me a tournament list that has bikes, dakkanauts, wardens and the attack flag.
Custodes come in two play styles, melee infantry that lean on terminators and trajaan,
Or shooty lists that lean on Trajaan and tanks. Hardly anyone uses the dakka nauts now, given their return on cost ratio.
Mob lists overwhelm Custodesm plain and simple. My friend runs lists of bloodletters bombs and DPs. You can either loose on points or lose on getting bombed off the map turn 2 by 30-50 screaming daemons with 61A WS2+ S6 AP-3 1D(2D). Oh and they get death to the False Emperor, and they can fight twice. Show me a Custodes unit that survives 122 attacks with DTFE.
I hate to break it to you mate, but there isn’t a tourney custodes list right now. But lucky for you, Orks also don’t have a tourney winning list
Also, like, dude, tournaments are all about learning the meta. If 150 ork boys became meta, things would shift to kill hordes. But they aren’t, so things are focused on trying to chunk through marines
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Malefic666 wrote: Bikes aren’t stopping 120-150 Orks. They just tellyport & da jump 2 units of 30 and then you’re in trouble. If they were we would see them as a viable build in the meta more, they’ve not been popular for a while now. Nearly 100 points each is just too much but GW won’t budge on their cost.
And arguments about meta aside that’s just the point @spartacus. Most of these horde builds can throw out insane levels of moral wounds. Mortal wounds are just too powerful against us. Those Ork burnerbombers or smites really are our Achilles heel.
If we want any hope moving forward we need something to mitigate mortal wounds and psychics.
Jetbikes absolutely trounce ork boys and are mostly vulnerable to ork shooting. If you are using bikes, they should be a teleport bomb themselves
