So how are the spears master crafted bolters but the actual bolters they carry are not? I are confused. I mean, I see WHY they did it but still. It would thematically stick that they use master crafted bolters...
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So how are the spears master crafted bolters but the actual bolters they carry are not? I are confused. I mean, I see WHY they did it but still. It would thematically stick that they use master crafted bolters...
They are “master crafted bolters”. It’s why they’re Assault 3.
greyknight12 wrote: Achillus was 140 if you took the storm bolters.
I’m in the sky is falling camp, loss of S8 was huge. Even with Trajan re-rolls (but no -1 to hit) accelerator tanks lose to leman russes while being 30 points more expensive, with the new beam gun they can win but cost 50 points more. And they are much worse against the T4 2 wound spam that is coming.
The flat 2 damage on the new Twin Iliastus accelerator cannon actually makes them very slightly better against T4 2 wound spam (See figures: Left is Strength 8, Damage D3, Right is Strength 7, Damage 2).
greyknight12 wrote: Achillus was 140 if you took the storm bolters.
I’m in the sky is falling camp, loss of S8 was huge. Even with Trajan re-rolls (but no -1 to hit) accelerator tanks lose to leman russes while being 30 points more expensive, with the new beam gun they can win but cost 50 points more. And they are much worse against the T4 2 wound spam that is coming.
The flat 2 damage on the new Twin Iliastus accelerator cannon actually makes them very slightly better against T4 2 wound spam (See figures: Left is Strength 8, Damage D3, Right is Strength 7, Damage 2).
What program are you using there? Looks nifty. Currently I'm using a combo of Anydice and the FoB calc
Also, appspot picked up the update, so update your BS data for the new stuff. (or it could fall over again, try in a couple hours once it fixes itself)
New troop options, big win. nerf on calidius was expected and it makes sense.
Nerf on the aquillon termies was pretty dumb, they needed a points decrease of 5 points not an increase. Its understandable comparing them to the GW ones, but since those were overcosted too it was stupid.
The change to the Telemon makes sense as well, but they should have reduced its points cost a bit with this change.
If they drop regular CG down 4 points each, and add sisters of silence as a -80pt troop option we will be in a good place.
The points drop on venetari is welcome as well, and they might see some action now.
4/9ths as effective against T8
1/2 as effective against T7
1/3rd as effective against T5 and T6 many-wound models
It is ONLY as effective against:
T1-3, T5 and T6 models with 1, 2, or 4 wounds and no FNP.
The IIlastius cannon was never meant to be anti tank is the problem, all of your comments are basically hiding the backdrop of you want the cheaper more shots gun to be good at both anti tank and anti infantry.
You could always take the heavy blaze cannon which has the same number of anti infantry shots or you can fire 2 shots at S9 -4 ap d3+3 damage with a re-roll to the wound roll....which is +d3 more damage per shot than beta rules.
Sneaky buff to the Gallatus - +1d3 extra attacks with the sword. I really like that profile now, it's tanky at 2+/4++/6+++, -1 to hit in CC, and now has enough attacks to somewhat offset its S7 blade. Might be worth a serious revisit.
grouchoben wrote: Sneaky buff to the Gallatus - +1d3 extra attacks with the sword. I really like that profile now, it's tanky at 2+/4++/6+++, -1 to hit in CC, and now has enough attacks to somewhat offset its S7 blade. Might be worth a serious revisit.
The old statline was a flat 3 bonus attacks wasnt it? So that's a nerf.
4/9ths as effective against T8
1/2 as effective against T7
1/3rd as effective against T5 and T6 many-wound models
It is ONLY as effective against:
T1-3, T5 and T6 models with 1, 2, or 4 wounds and no FNP.
The IIlastius cannon was never meant to be anti tank is the problem, all of your comments are basically hiding the backdrop of you want the cheaper more shots gun to be good at both anti tank and anti infantry.
You could always take the heavy blaze cannon which has the same number of anti infantry shots or you can fire 2 shots at S9 -4 ap d3+3 damage with a re-roll to the wound roll....which is +d3 more damage per shot than beta rules.
I'm just providing math. I made no comments to any other effect.
4/9ths as effective against T8
1/2 as effective against T7
1/3rd as effective against T5 and T6 many-wound models
It is ONLY as effective against:
T1-3, T5 and T6 models with 1, 2, or 4 wounds and no FNP.
The IIlastius cannon was never meant to be anti tank is the problem, all of your comments are basically hiding the backdrop of you want the cheaper more shots gun to be good at both anti tank and anti infantry.
You could always take the heavy blaze cannon which has the same number of anti infantry shots or you can fire 2 shots at S9 -4 ap d3+3 damage with a re-roll to the wound roll....which is +d3 more damage per shot than beta rules.
I'm just providing math. I made no comments to any other effect.
Could I ask what you mean by the term 'as effective'.
For example, you say the new guns are half as effective vs a T7 target now. By my calculations the expected damage value for the new Str 7 guns vs a T7 3+ target is 5.55 wounds. The old guns at Str 8 do 7.41 wounds. That would mean that the new guns have about 75% the expected damage output of the old value, not 50%.
4/9ths as effective against T8
1/2 as effective against T7
1/3rd as effective against T5 and T6 many-wound models
It is ONLY as effective against:
T1-3, T5 and T6 models with 1, 2, or 4 wounds and no FNP.
The IIlastius cannon was never meant to be anti tank is the problem, all of your comments are basically hiding the backdrop of you want the cheaper more shots gun to be good at both anti tank and anti infantry.
You could always take the heavy blaze cannon which has the same number of anti infantry shots or you can fire 2 shots at S9 -4 ap d3+3 damage with a re-roll to the wound roll....which is +d3 more damage per shot than beta rules.
I'm just providing math. I made no comments to any other effect.
Could I ask what you mean by the term 'as effective'.
For example, you say the new guns are half as effective vs a T7 target now. By my calculations the expected damage value for the new Str 7 guns vs a T7 3+ target is 5.55 wounds. The old guns at Str 8 do 7.41 wounds. That would mean that the new guns have about 75% the expected damage output of the old value, not 50%.
So, it went from S8 D3 to S7 D2.
Against T7, it went from 2/3 hits wounding at 3 damage apiece (for 2 expected damage per hit, assuming no saves allowed) to 1/2 hits wounding at 2 damage apiece (for 1 expected damage per hit, assuming no saves allowed).
Against T7, it went from 2/3 hits wounding at 3 damage apiece (for 2 expected damage per hit, assuming no saves allowed) to 1/2 hits wounding at 2 damage apiece (for 1 expected damage per hit, assuming no saves allowed).
It was damage D3 before, not a flat 3. That would have been truly bonkers.
They just changed it to a standard damage 2 instead of having to roll D3 damage for each hit, but statistically that's the same amount of expected damage.
Against T7, it went from 2/3 hits wounding at 3 damage apiece (for 2 expected damage per hit, assuming no saves allowed) to 1/2 hits wounding at 2 damage apiece (for 1 expected damage per hit, assuming no saves allowed).
It was damage D3 before, not a flat 3. That would have been truly bonkers.
They just changed it to a standard damage 2 instead of having to roll D3 damage for each hit, but statistically that's the same amount of expected damage.
Hey guys I'm thinking of getting into Custodes as something to run along side my Deathwatch. What is the difference.between the Alarus and Aquilion Terminators?
So it seems like GW is trying to enforce Custodes as a mid range + melee army as opposed to a gunline with these changes and it seems like Aquilons with Power Gauntlets are gonna be the best answer to T8 and Knights. With the sharp points increase to the Orion, could we see the Coronus make a resurgence? Loading them up with Aquilons and providing decent fire support doesn't look half bad and thankfully it made it out of the rules update unscathed. Deep striking a Telemon with a Caestus and a Storm Cannon seems viable as well although making that 9" charge is always going to be a problem. Gotta find some way to get some mileage out of it now and if anything it'll provide for a big distraction that will need to be answered somehow.
grouchoben wrote: Sneaky buff to the Gallatus - +1d3 extra attacks with the sword. I really like that profile now, it's tanky at 2+/4++/6+++, -1 to hit in CC, and now has enough attacks to somewhat offset its S7 blade. Might be worth a serious revisit.
The old statline was a flat 3 bonus attacks wasnt it? So that's a nerf.
Nah, extra hits on a 6 to hit. The new profile is strictly better.
Elfric wrote: Hey guys I'm thinking of getting into Custodes as something to run along side my Deathwatch. What is the difference.between the Alarus and Aquilion Terminators?
Allarus are in the codex and take axes/spears and bastilus grenade launchers. They have a bunch of stratagems that allow them to do fun stuff but they’re generally not seen as a competitive choice.
Aquilons are FW and have a few options, more commonly they take Lastrum Storm Bolters and Solerite Power Gauntlets, Twin Adrathic Destructors and Gauntlets, or Firepikes and Gauntlets. They just got a 5 point increase to put them in line with the base cost of Allarus.
Elfric wrote: Hey guys I'm thinking of getting into Custodes as something to run along side my Deathwatch. What is the difference.between the Alarus and Aquilion Terminators?
Allarus are in the codex and take axes/spears and bastilus grenade launchers. They have a bunch of stratagems that allow them to do fun stuff but they’re generally not seen as a competitive choice.
Aquilons are FW and have a few options, more commonly they take Lastrum Storm Bolters and Solerite Power Gauntlets, Twin Adrathic Destructors and Gauntlets, or Firepikes and Gauntlets. They just got a 5 point increase to put them in line with the base cost of Allarus.
Yeah, you pay for either good stratagems [allarus] or great weapons [aquilons]
I think to possible, that this change from beta was them trying to:
- balance FW against the codex
- make the custodes feel more of a close/mid range army, not a gun line
And it’s possible that they may adjust again in CA19 for overall balance against the game as a whole (ie allarus reduction)
Mr. Funktastic wrote: So it seems like GW is trying to enforce Custodes as a mid range + melee army as opposed to a gunline with these changes and it seems like Aquilons with Power Gauntlets are gonna be the best answer to T8 and Knights. With the sharp points increase to the Orion, could we see the Coronus make a resurgence? Loading them up with Aquilons and providing decent fire support doesn't look half bad and thankfully it made it out of the rules update unscathed. Deep striking a Telemon with a Caestus and a Storm Cannon seems viable as well although making that 9" charge is always going to be a problem. Gotta find some way to get some mileage out of it now and if anything it'll provide for a big distraction that will need to be answered somehow.
I don't think the Orion is strictly bad at it's new points cost though. The Coronus just needs to get the "better" blaze cannon and then it will be quite a good choice, and even with these rules changes being recent I'm not discounting future FAQs changing them again; I think a lot of the push was to bring them into the fold of actual rules and out of beta ahead of the fall FAQ.
I think that (if $$$ isn't an issue) running one of each flyer might be viable; they both have a giant "shoot me" sticker on them and will distract from anything on the ground getting shot at; though if your opponent has no vehicles the Ares is kind of wasted. But if you're taking 2 Caladius in anti-tank mode then the 4 (avg) anti-tank shots from the Ares seems worth losing the 12 lastrum shots for 120 points cheaper.
On the other hand, Aquilons deepstriking and bikes being fast means you can probably spend the points on more dudes instead of a shiny gunboat...488 is another 5 aquilons with firepikes, 5 vertus praetors or even 4 agmatus with pules lasers.
greyknight12 wrote: if you're taking 2 Caladius in anti-tank mode then the 4 (avg) anti-tank shots from the Ares seems worth losing the 12 lastrum shots for 120 points cheaper.
Mr. Funktastic wrote: So it seems like GW is trying to enforce Custodes as a mid range + melee army as opposed to a gunline with these changes and it seems like Aquilons with Power Gauntlets are gonna be the best answer to T8 and Knights. With the sharp points increase to the Orion, could we see the Coronus make a resurgence? Loading them up with Aquilons and providing decent fire support doesn't look half bad and thankfully it made it out of the rules update unscathed. Deep striking a Telemon with a Caestus and a Storm Cannon seems viable as well although making that 9" charge is always going to be a problem. Gotta find some way to get some mileage out of it now and if anything it'll provide for a big distraction that will need to be answered somehow.
I don't think the Orion is strictly bad at it's new points cost though. The Coronus just needs to get the "better" blaze cannon and then it will be quite a good choice, and even with these rules changes being recent I'm not discounting future FAQs changing them again; I think a lot of the push was to bring them into the fold of actual rules and out of beta ahead of the fall FAQ. I think that (if $$$ isn't an issue) running one of each flyer might be viable; they both have a giant "shoot me" sticker on them and will distract from anything on the ground getting shot at; though if your opponent has no vehicles the Ares is kind of wasted. But if you're taking 2 Caladius in anti-tank mode then the 4 (avg) anti-tank shots from the Ares seems worth losing the 12 lastrum shots for 120 points cheaper. On the other hand, Aquilons deepstriking and bikes being fast means you can probably spend the points on more dudes instead of a shiny gunboat...488 is another 5 aquilons with firepikes, 5 vertus praetors or even 4 agmatus with pules lasers.
The problem with deep strike has always been making that 9" charge and Custodes have no way of making that any easier beyond a command reroll. At least with a transport like the Coronus it can make getting them close easier which is why I can see it having some valueand bikes always seem to get targeted first in my games so they don't last too long. Has anyone tried out the Caladius with Twin Arachnus Heavy Blaze Cannons? Only having 2 shots is a bit concerning but it certainly doesn't have trouble hitting or wounding targets. With the nerf to the Telemon's Storm Cannons we can use all the ranged anti-tank we can get without breaking the bank.
What are people’s thoughts on the agamatus with twin las-pulsar? Pricey, at 345 for 3 (same as the new obliterators) but 3 lots of heavy 4, S8, ap-2,D d3. And the lance for melee!
Dice4thedicegod wrote: What are people’s thoughts on the agamatus with twin las-pulsar? Pricey, at 345 for 3 (same as the new obliterators) but 3 lots of heavy 4, S8, ap-2,D d3. And the lance for melee!
They're interesting but they're still too expensive for me, they're also Heavy weapons so they'll be hitting on 3's and plus the models look ugly as sin.
Dice4thedicegod wrote: What are people’s thoughts on the agamatus with twin las-pulsar? Pricey, at 345 for 3 (same as the new obliterators) but 3 lots of heavy 4, S8, ap-2,D d3. And the lance for melee!
I think they are super solid, and make all-bike armies an interesting idea again or just a nice durable midfield support unit for deep strikers. I wish their other guns were better though, because neither of them seem even remotely useful. Ideally we’d be able to mix them into our Vertus praetor squads, but that’s never going to happen...I’d love to be able to do 2-1 las pulsars to hurricane bolters or vice versa in a bike squad.
So the initial response to Sagittarium Guard becoming a troop choice was quite positive.
The standard spear/sword&board guards were often seen as a troop tax, because they obviously want to be up front in melee and are not suited for backfield objective camping.
Now since the Sagittarum can be better used to sit on objectives and also don't suck in melee if you give them misericordias, do you think they will eventually push out the normal guard from most lists?
Until charging stops being a random suck-fest, an infantry troop choice that does its main damage at range will be more effective 95% of the time, especially when they are the same cost pretty much.
They also just as durable (stormshields aside), and can also still blend up something like an IG infantry squad who charges them to try swarming an objective.
I'd say the fit the requirements pretty well indeed. Custodian Guard are really only taken for being troops currently, like you say. They're totally overshadowed by Wardens as CC infantry, or bikes in the general melee role. Stormshields are still their niche of course, so a squad with shields might still be useful in the 'super-tanky-bunker unit' role
Until charging stops being a random suck-fest, an infantry troop choice that does its main damage at range will be more effective 95% of the time, especially when they are the same cost pretty much.
They also just as durable (stormshields aside), and can also still blend up something like an IG infantry squad who charges them to try swarming an objective.
I'd say the fit the requirements pretty well indeed. Custodian Guard are really only taken for being troops currently, like you say. They're totally overshadowed by Wardens as CC infantry, or bikes in the general melee role. Stormshields are still their niche of course, so a squad with shields might still be useful in the 'super-tanky-bunker unit' role
Agreed to everything you said. It's a shame though, I personally really like the spear wielding guard. They are amazing if they can get to their target, but like you said charging can be so damn frustrating in 8th ed. For a melee centered army like the custodes, I never understood why they didn't get any rule to help them charge. I know, I know, Custodes can be a really good shooting army with the forgeworld units, but their codex clearly has them in mind as a melee centered army.
I don't think Sagittarium Guard will push out IG because nothing does point efficient CP like IG does but it does certainly help to make a Custodes Battalion a more attractive option because you don't have 150 points with the firepower of 3 bolters sitting on an objective.
Ordana wrote: I don't think Sagittarium Guard will push out IG because nothing does point efficient CP like IG does but it does certainly help to make a Custodes Battalion a more attractive option because you don't have 150 points with the firepower of 3 bolters sitting on an objective.
I think you have misunderstood me, I was not talking about soup lists. I was talking about Sagittarium pushing out Custodian Guard with Spears or Shields/Swords as troops. But yes you are right, Custodes and IG will still go very well together and Sagittarium Guards most likely will not be used to fill a battalion when playing soup
Ordana wrote: I don't think Sagittarium Guard will push out IG because nothing does point efficient CP like IG does but it does certainly help to make a Custodes Battalion a more attractive option because you don't have 150 points with the firepower of 3 bolters sitting on an objective.
I think you have misunderstood me, I was not talking about soup lists. I was talking about Sagittarium pushing out Custodian Guard with Spears or Shields/Swords as troops. But yes you are right, Custodes and IG will still go very well together and Sagittarium Guards most likely will not be used to fill a battalion when playing soup
I can very much see them pushing out Custodian Guard in battalion yes. If not all 3 squads then atleast 1-2.
For a Custodes Battalion I think running 2x3 units of Sagittarum and one big squad of Guardian Spear Guardians deep striking in to take advantage of Piercing Strike could work as like a budget Warden bomb option for those of us looking to still use our Custodian Guard models. Throw in a Storm Shield or 2 for extra durability in case they don't make their charge and need to weather return fire.
iGuy91 wrote: I've been toying with running the following for my battalion troops
2x3 Saggitarum with Misericordia
1x3 Guard with Pytherite Spears (DS)
Toying with using from golden light they come to make drop melta squads 3 bs2 meltas is sure to land some damage.
friend of mine stuffed 5x pyr spears and a captain into a coronus as some nice troops-based anti-tank, coupled with raiment of sorrows to increase the punishment if they were targeted afterwards. Proved to be an excellent armor breaker.
iGuy91 wrote: I've been toying with running the following for my battalion troops
2x3 Saggitarum with Misericordia
1x3 Guard with Pytherite Spears (DS)
Toying with using from golden light they come to make drop melta squads 3 bs2 meltas is sure to land some damage.
friend of mine stuffed 5x pyr spears and a captain into a coronus as some nice troops-based anti-tank, coupled with raiment of sorrows to increase the punishment if they were targeted afterwards. Proved to be an excellent armor breaker.
That....is an interesting combination...hadn't considered that relic....wonder if its better with the Coronus, or better with From Golden Light they Come....
See, this really bothers me in one respect. One more army has been made FW or bust. I love throwing my Custodian Guard into the fray, and love the rewards they are possible of reaping. Now all the suqads I've built and painted are instantly invalidated by Sagitarium guard. I mean, I'm hoping the new CA or FAQ will address the inadequacy of the Non-FW units now.
I would like to see Guard lowered in cost by at least 5-10ppm, and maybe dropping the cost of bikes?
I would also love to see a special detachment rule just for Sisters of Silence, where they can generate CP, and be integrated into the Custodes rules. Maybe as an Elite slot?
iGuy91 wrote: I've been toying with running the following for my battalion troops
2x3 Saggitarum with Misericordia
1x3 Guard with Pytherite Spears (DS)
Toying with using from golden light they come to make drop melta squads 3 bs2 meltas is sure to land some damage.
friend of mine stuffed 5x pyr spears and a captain into a coronus as some nice troops-based anti-tank, coupled with raiment of sorrows to increase the punishment if they were targeted afterwards. Proved to be an excellent armor breaker.
That....is an interesting combination...hadn't considered that relic....wonder if its better with the Coronus, or better with From Golden Light they Come....
The issue with FGLTC is all your opponent needs is a screen in front of their tough target and you’re not getting within 12”. The Coronus allows us to move 14” as a flyer in a nice safe T8 W18 shell. I’d put 5 Pyrithite Guard in there with a Vexilla. Get out and shoot the meltas then drop down 8 Wardens and Trajann and have the whole lot charge into stuff.
iGuy91 wrote: I've been toying with running the following for my battalion troops
2x3 Saggitarum with Misericordia 1x3 Guard with Pytherite Spears (DS)
Toying with using from golden light they come to make drop melta squads 3 bs2 meltas is sure to land some damage.
friend of mine stuffed 5x pyr spears and a captain into a coronus as some nice troops-based anti-tank, coupled with raiment of sorrows to increase the punishment if they were targeted afterwards. Proved to be an excellent armor breaker.
That....is an interesting combination...hadn't considered that relic....wonder if its better with the Coronus, or better with From Golden Light they Come....
The issue with FGLTC is all your opponent needs is a screen in front of their tough target and you’re not getting within 12”. The Coronus allows us to move 14” as a flyer in a nice safe T8 W18 shell. I’d put 5 Pyrithite Guard in there with a Vexilla. Get out and shoot the meltas then drop down 8 Wardens and Trajann and have the whole lot charge into stuff.
I've also been intrigued by Pyrithite Guard and their potential since they're Troops now and we need all the anti-armor we can get. Right now I'm thinking about a Battalion with 1x3 Guardians to take and hold midfield, 1x3 Sagittarum to hold the backfield objective, and 1x3 Pyrithite Guard that will go inside a Coronus with 3 Power Gauntlet + Firepike Aquilons to act as tank busters and screen melters. The Raiment of Sorrows is also an interesting relic that could get the most out of those Pyrithite Spears as we can possibly can. Also with the Vexilla Teleport Homer strat the Vexilla needs to be on the battlefield at the start of the turn to use it, so disembarking it and using it won't work if that was your plan.
iGuy91 wrote: I've been toying with running the following for my battalion troops
2x3 Saggitarum with Misericordia
1x3 Guard with Pytherite Spears (DS)
Toying with using from golden light they come to make drop melta squads 3 bs2 meltas is sure to land some damage.
friend of mine stuffed 5x pyr spears and a captain into a coronus as some nice troops-based anti-tank, coupled with raiment of sorrows to increase the punishment if they were targeted afterwards. Proved to be an excellent armor breaker.
That....is an interesting combination...hadn't considered that relic....wonder if its better with the Coronus, or better with From Golden Light they Come....
The issue with FGLTC is all your opponent needs is a screen in front of their tough target and you’re not getting within 12”. The Coronus allows us to move 14” as a flyer in a nice safe T8 W18 shell. I’d put 5 Pyrithite Guard in there with a Vexilla. Get out and shoot the meltas then drop down 8 Wardens and Trajann and have the whole lot charge into stuff.
I've also been intrigued by Pyrithite Guard and their potential since they're Troops now and we need all the anti-armor we can get. Right now I'm thinking about a Battalion with 1x3 Guardians to take and hold midfield, 1x3 Sagittarum to hold the backfield objective, and 1x3 Pyrithite Guard that will go inside a Coronus with 3 Power Gauntlet + Firepike Aquilons to act as tank busters and screen melters. The Raiment of Sorrows is also an interesting relic that could get the most out of those Pyrithite Spears as we can possibly can. Also with the Vexilla Teleport Homer strat the Vexilla needs to be on the battlefield at the start of the turn to use it, so disembarking it and using it won't work if that was your plan.
Oh right. So disembarking and then using the Vexilla is out? Meh that sucks. I suppose then the Coronus takes 5 dudes and a captain, might as well be Trajann to get reroll 1s on hits & wounds for those meltas. I’m into the idea of taking the Pyrithite Guard and really want to find a way to make them work but without the option for storm shields in the unit they’ll get blown away if we try footslogging them.
I’ve been thinking about just running the Vexilla on foot with a 3 man storm shield bodyguard unit as an alternative option, then when you get close enough use the teleport homer for FGLTC. Dunno, I find that only sword and board cut it running around on foot in my games as armies are packing so much -2AP D2 that 4++ W3 just isn’t enough when we have 3-5 models in most Guard units. It’s pretty disheartening that I get shot off the table or drop 9” away and roll <9” more than 50% of the time... so maybe I’ll try a few Coronus. Just seems a lot of points in an already eye-wateringly points expensive army.
I am a big fan of 5x Regular Custodes Terminators, and a Shield Captain in Terminator Armor with Gatekeeper. Pop the CP to do Tanglefoot/Concussion, fire off everything else, and charge.
I’ve been thinking about just running the Vexilla on foot with a 3 man storm shield bodyguard unit as an alternative option, then when you get close enough use the teleport homer for FGLTC. Dunno, I find that only sword and board cut it running around on foot in my games as armies are packing so much -2AP D2 that 4++ W3 just isn’t enough when we have 3-5 models in most Guard units. It’s pretty disheartening that I get shot off the table or drop 9” away and roll <9” more than 50% of the time... so maybe I’ll try a few Coronus. Just seems a lot of points in an already eye-wateringly points expensive army.
Alternative: a wall of allied units/vehicles advancing in front to block line of sight to the custodes.
When you're talking about 500 points of transports, allies seem to become cheap :p
Its actually really funny. I find that Custodes are one of the armies that benefit the most from cover, since it means all those -1 AP weapons have no impact on armor saves.
Strange to think about, but I swear keeping them in cover, and moving with a Vexilla Magnifica tends to keep my guys alive for a long time.
iGuy91 wrote: Its actually really funny. I find that Custodes are one of the armies that benefit the most from cover, since it means all those -1 AP weapons have no impact on armor saves.
Strange to think about, but I swear keeping them in cover, and moving with a Vexilla Magnifica tends to keep my guys alive for a long time.
Louder for the people in back. I never understand the player who thinks his/her/its life goal is to get across the board in the next 5 seconds, cover be damned. The only time that basically makes sense is an all daemon army where there might be 6 models with a shooting attack in the whole list.
I love using Custodes to teach new players, because it helps teach them the value of no wasting models. The No-LOS charge, the Vertical Charge rule, the cover charge, etc. Teach them to make a plan for each model.
So, I hesitate to use CP this way, but can we load up a 6 man squad of guard with Melta guns, FGLTC them into the backfield, and let them eat tanks? Or is there a better way to use them?
6x Guard with Pyrite Spears, about 340pts, can take an hold a location, and thats a hell of a lot of melta to drop on someone, followed by a charge. They would be useless for anything but a tank buster squad, but for 340 points and 1 CP, thats 6 S8 AP4 D6 shots. Throw Trajan in there and you just made your opponent cry, which is worth 1d3 victory points.
For 1 CP it’s a bargain to put your Guard where you need them but who is going to leave their backfield open to that? Most (if not all) players have units stopping DS and you’re likely to face screens on the front. It’s a damn shame that DS is nerfed so heavily because a unit like this could offer us an alternative way to deal with T8.
That said, for the points cost the Melta spear is far better than the bolter spear, only 1 less shot (at <12”) @ S8 Ap4 Dd6(2d6 pick highest @ <6”) all at BS2+ is sweet. It’s just the age old problem of getting our guys there.
iGuy91 wrote: Its actually really funny. I find that Custodes are one of the armies that benefit the most from cover, since it means all those -1 AP weapons have no impact on armor saves.
Strange to think about, but I swear keeping them in cover, and moving with a Vexilla Magnifica tends to keep my guys alive for a long time.
It makes sense when you think about it tho.
Going from a 2+ to a 3+ save is a 100% more failed saves
doing from 3+ to a 4+ is 'only' 50% more fails.
The better your save is the bigger the effect from improving that save becomes.
Could anyone tell me what size base the Telemon uses? Is it 80mm round? I'm living away from my collection at the moment and can't measure myself. I want to get a scenic resin base to do up while I'm away and wanna make sure it's the appropriate size.
Spartacus wrote: Could anyone tell me what size base the Telemon uses? Is it 80mm round? I'm living away from my collection at the moment and can't measure myself. I want to get a scenic resin base to do up while I'm away and wanna make sure it's the appropriate size.
It's on a 100mm round base according to the Forge World website.
Spartacus wrote: Could anyone tell me what size base the Telemon uses? Is it 80mm round? I'm living away from my collection at the moment and can't measure myself. I want to get a scenic resin base to do up while I'm away and wanna make sure it's the appropriate size.
It's on a 100mm round base according to the Forge World website.
I can confirm this my Telemons came with 100mm bases.
Great thanks a bunch. Its been a long time away from home!
On another note I've been mucking around with some maths to do with the Sagittarum's combi gun, and see what the most optimal way to fire it is: i.e. Either just the bolter, just the Adrathic beamer, or both (assuming both are in range).
I was gonna post some numbers but its pretty clear cut: Always fire both if you can.
Even when I thought of the most ideal possible target for the Adrathic gun (something like a GK Paladin), firing both will always result in more average damage done than firing just one of the guns. I didn't calculate with any rerolls, but reroll ones shouldn't affect the result much, if at all.
Even when shooting a GEQ, you'll get more kills on average firing both guns. The differences between the two are generally quite small, and it probably won't matter than much really, I image it works that way because they are both S5.
There was 1 list with all Standard Custodes. 8 wardens, 5 Alarus Termies, and about 12 guard squads. I see that guy winning it all. I want him to do well.
Pestilens wrote: I see in most list, that the vertus praetors, have been cut down to one unit or none, Can somebody tell me why???
My reason for not including bikes anymore are knights bikes can't deal with them that good.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I am looking for something to replace my 2 Telemons. They had 2 storm cannons each. I will keep the Caladius because they are still great but i need long range anti knight shooting. So i thought a Castellan wood be a good idea what do you think?
With the over-saturation of T7/8 with 4/5++ units in the Meta today, S4/6 weapons don't really make the cut. On the other hand, the melta missile sucks because an almost 100pt platform isn't a great start for a 1 shot weapon that does D6 damage.
Now, if GW were to say, upgrade the Melta missile to a halfway decent state, then we could talk. Say, Heavy 2, D6+3?
Pestilens wrote: I see in most list, that the vertus praetors, have been cut down to one unit or none, Can somebody tell me why???
My reason for not including bikes anymore are knights bikes can't deal with them that good.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I am looking for something to replace my 2 Telemons. They had 2 storm cannons each. I will keep the Caladius because they are still great but i need long range anti knight shooting. So i thought a Castellan wood be a good idea what do you think?
I haven't really had a chance yet to try a new list yet after the nerf regarding the telemons.
But I usually run one with x2 Stormcannons, and one with storm cannon and a fist.
TBH, with -1 to hit, nobody....really ever shoots them.
Losing range means we have to be smarter in objective placement, and be smarter in deployment with them. Probably need to move them into an optimal position turn 1.
A thought I had is a twin-fist telemon will give a knight the business in melee. 5 attacks hitting on 2s, wounding on 2s, AP-4, at flat 4 damage is good odds of 20 damage in a fight phase. Keeping Trajann nearby almost guarentees it. Maybe some Vexilla Teleport homer shenanigans?
Alternatively, the Aquillon Terminators are monsters vs knights as well.
Pestilens wrote: I see in most list, that the vertus praetors, have been cut down to one unit or none, Can somebody tell me why???
My reason for not including bikes anymore are knights bikes can't deal with them that good.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I am looking for something to replace my 2 Telemons. They had 2 storm cannons each. I will keep the Caladius because they are still great but i need long range anti knight shooting. So i thought a Castellan wood be a good idea what do you think?
I haven't really had a chance yet to try a new list yet after the nerf regarding the telemons.
But I usually run one with x2 Stormcannons, and one with storm cannon and a fist.
TBH, with -1 to hit, nobody....really ever shoots them.
Losing range means we have to be smarter in objective placement, and be smarter in deployment with them. Probably need to move them into an optimal position turn 1.
A thought I had is a twin-fist telemon will give a knight the business in melee. 5 attacks hitting on 2s, wounding on 2s, AP-4, at flat 4 damage is good odds of 20 damage in a fight phase. Keeping Trajann nearby almost guarentees it. Maybe some Vexilla Teleport homer shenanigans?
Alternatively, the Aquillon Terminators are monsters vs knights as well.
Thanks for the idea. I tryed it yesterday and i have to say i am not onvinced it is a viable option in highly competitive games. The Telemon moves only 8" so getting him into melee might not be that easy all the time. And the fist is only AP-3 not -4. I need a highly competitive long range anti knight fire power.
I’m probably going to proxy an Ares and/or keep my Orion in lists for the next few games to try and fill that shooting gap. Still see a lot of potential from agmatus bikes.
As far as the Telemon goes, my old loadout was storm cannon+fist hiding in the caladius castle; when knights got close he’d step out and punch them. I don’t think the extra attack is worth trading all your ability to contribute throughout the game with shooting.
There is also a strat that gives all Naughts re-rolls of 1 for hit, so you don't NEED trajan there. Without Trajan, 1 model gets about 10 wounds, 2 drops the knight 20 wounds. With trajan, 1 gets 12 wounds, and 2 hitting the knight kill it.
So, if you don't exclusively put trajan there, you can still drop it to bottom tier, and make it virtually useless for the rest of the game, allowing you to focus on other things.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: There is also a strat that gives all Naughts re-rolls of 1 for hit, so you don't NEED trajan there. Without Trajan, 1 model gets about 10 wounds, 2 drops the knight 20 wounds. With trajan, 1 gets 12 wounds, and 2 hitting the knight kill it.
So, if you don't exclusively put trajan there, you can still drop it to bottom tier, and make it virtually useless for the rest of the game, allowing you to focus on other things.
Fun fact, Machine Spirit Resurgent works in all phases. Never count a Knight out.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: There is also a strat that gives all Naughts re-rolls of 1 for hit, so you don't NEED trajan there. Without Trajan, 1 model gets about 10 wounds, 2 drops the knight 20 wounds. With trajan, 1 gets 12 wounds, and 2 hitting the knight kill it.
So, if you don't exclusively put trajan there, you can still drop it to bottom tier, and make it virtually useless for the rest of the game, allowing you to focus on other things.
Fun fact, Machine Spirit Resurgent works in all phases. Never count a Knight out.
Ok, so I didn't even think about the fact that the second unit would be punching at a significantly weakened knight. Also, if he pops the strat then, he'd be saving the Knight, but he'd have to pop it AGAIN on his turn to be able to do anything. So, I mean, right there we cost him 2CP he could have used on rotating shields, So my plasma shots just dropped him.
Knights are the equivalent of a kid on the playground going "I have infinite shields!" They are lamely designed meta breakers that don't belong, and the fact that we have to have a strategy in every army to deal with knights or we completely suck, is dumb. Because god forbid we get lucky enough to devote 700pts and the 3CP to take this thing down, it's got a 1CP move that totally invalidate everything.
Question about using the Praetorian Plate. If I put it on an Allarus SC and wanted to use it to teleport him down to a Dawneagle SC I nominated, could I use it while he's in deep strike reserves or does he need to be on the battlefield for it to work?
I'm not too surprised, the range being cut in half on the Storm Cannons is a big deal but it mostly means you might need to spend a turn walking him up 8" to get better range instead of parking him somewhere and cheesing it. STR8 rerolling failed wounds is still formidable so even with some of the changes I still expect the Telemon to put in some solid work, just not as great as it used to. What loadout did you use?
Mr. Funktastic wrote: Question about using the Praetorian Plate. If I put it on an Allarus SC and wanted to use it to teleport him down to a Dawneagle SC I nominated, could I use it while he's in deep strike reserves or does he need to be on the battlefield for it to work?
Yeah you could do that as it says ‘you can remove the bearer from the battlefield (if they are on the battlefield) and, even if they were not on the battlefield, set them up within 3” of that character and within 1” of an enemy model’.
I am going to try and pull off the following. Take a Vexilus Praetor in Allarus with this relic. Send my Dawneagle Shield Captain into combat (either get charged or use Swooping Dive) to drop my Vexilus down next to him. Then in my turn I can drop my Warden bomb on the enemy using Vexila Teleport Homer. Take the Vexila Imperius and those Wardens will have 6 attacks, 5 with axes and 1 with Misericordia. Could be brutal enough to swing the game right there.
Thanks for the reply. Sounds brutal but a really expensive strategy, we're talking about potentially 7 CP spent (+1 if you're taking an additional relic, +3 for possibly using Stooping Dive, +3 for the Vexilla Teleport Homer) which is pretty much all our CP if you're rolling with a Custodes Battalion. It could very well swing the game but I feel like a savvy enough opponent could play around it.
Mr. Funktastic wrote: Thanks for the reply. Sounds brutal but a really expensive strategy, we're talking about potentially 7 CP spent (+1 if you're taking an additional relic, +3 for possibly using Stooping Dive, +3 for the Vexilla Teleport Homer) which is pretty much all our CP if you're rolling with a Custodes Battalion. It could very well swing the game but I feel like a savvy enough opponent could play around it.
Yeah possibly. Also remember that some times you’ll not need to use Swooping Dive, say against Orks or GSC. In addition there will be games where you just get chance to drop in without needing the teleport homer strat also. I’m always using FGLTC on my Wardens anyway so it’s just a little trick to have up your sleeve if you take an Allarus Vexila. Right now I bring 13-14 CPs (Custodes battalion & Ad mech battalion) as any less than 8 CPs and I feel Custodes are not playing to their strengths, almost always paying 2CP for the reroll strat on my Dawneagle SC with 3++ and 1CP for Praetorian Plate too.
Mr. Funktastic wrote: I'm not too surprised, the range being cut in half on the Storm Cannons is a big deal but it mostly means you might need to spend a turn walking him up 8" to get better range instead of parking him somewhere and cheesing it. STR8 rerolling failed wounds is still formidable so even with some of the changes I still expect the Telemon to put in some solid work, just not as great as it used to. What loadout did you use?
One game i used a twin storm cannon
The other game i used a storm cannon and a fist, and a twin storm cannon.
So, I TOTALLY missed the Melta Missile update. Instead of 2d3, it's now a flat 4 shots. Anyone see this as having a large impact on their loadouts? I'm thinking at least 2 squads, 2x3, with 2/1 hurr/melta load out. 4 Melta shots per bike is a pretty good start for making bikes actually worth throwing against tanks now.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, I TOTALLY missed the Melta Missile update. Instead of 2d3, it's now a flat 4 shots. Anyone see this as having a large impact on their loadouts? I'm thinking at least 2 squads, 2x3, with 2/1 hurr/melta load out. 4 Melta shots per bike is a pretty good start for making bikes actually worth throwing against tanks now.
Wot?
Standard bikes didnt get touched. The Agamatus pulse laser was updated to be less streaky. They're not melta weapons and they cant be taken in the same squad as Vertus bikes.
I wanted to give my opinion of the galatus contemptor dread after the FW rules update:
In my opinion the d3 extra attacks everytime he fights, were a slight buff. The sword is still not great against T7 or above, but hey, better than nothing.
I tried him with the "from golden light they come" strategem and also as a footslogging distraction carnifex against my buddies necrons and tau. Also played him once against a more melee heavy chaos space marine army, which was fun.
This is basically just anecdotal, because I did not play enough games to give meaningfull numbers, but in my biased opinion he is reather good against medium and heavy infantry. He is also not that bad as a rock against melee hordes either, because the -1 to hit shield and his 4++ make him quite tough to take down....at least in melee.
When you play against shooting armies like I did with Tau and Necrons, he did not perform very well, at least for me. If you deepstrike him with the stratagem and he makes the charge he can make back his points if he gets to hit a unit of necron destroyers for example, but if he doesn't make the charge he's dead most of the time before he can do anything.
The other thing you can do with him against shooting armies of course is to just play him as a distraction carnifex and walk him as far up on the board as you can with the vexilla until he eventually dies (and most of the time he will), but if he draws enough fire your other units might get up the board faster without losing to many models.
I tried this in two games and it worked to some extent, but it was really no fun. Just my opinion, but I dislike playing a unit that I know will be dead no later than turn 2, especially with a low model count army.
I honestly don't understand the purpose of an entirely melee based dreadnaught with weaker than normal attacks. I get it's more defensive, but still. Units like this tend to get focused down, due to their inherent risk. So something that has a harder time earning points back seems pointless. The spear version looks better in every respect except the 4++ vs 5++. I mean, I guess it's a pretty effective bully unit for tieing up mobs, but I don't feel like paying 200pts for something that I could just as easily do with bikes, terminators, or wardens...the last two of which are getting S8 attacks
Aquilons are better than both the Galatus and the Achillus if you want to kill something in melee for sure.
I play the Galatus mainly because I like the model very much and because I don't play tournaments.
But yeah...compared to other stuff it has a hard time to make its points back, I'm just saying it's not completely useless.
I can see it as a valuable and durable base for Re-roll ones to hit, and I can see it as a fairly good heavy infantry stabber, like you said. But the main issue is the cost. It just needs to up that attack to S8 and then it would be pretty hard to pass up.
Best bet though is still to air drop it on turn 2 with an Orion. The Teleport drops it outside shooting range, and too far out of charge to be reliable.
So is there ever any reason NOT to run Saggitarum Guard as your troops choices now? The fact that they can fire their weapons on both profiles (-1 to hit), and take a misericordia to give them 4 attacks each, makes them a lot more versatile than standard Custodes. I notice they're sold out on Forgeworld, and for good reason... I think this might make pure Custodes a lot more viable now.
I’ve used Sag Guard a few times and they are good. Their guns do well against most troops, hitting on 2s and wounding on 3s. But I wouldn’t rule out spear or shield guard too quickly. We are an army that does its best work in melee and the damage output spears can do in melee is far superior to the shooting of sag guard. Incidentally I put misericordia on my sag guard and they never got into melee due to them sitting on objectives shooting all game. I think we now have 3 troops that do 3 jobs well. Sag camp backfield objectives and add a dozen heavy bolter shots, spears are superb melee, and sword/shield tank anything and do better melee against hordes. What still hurts us is the price tag we pay for a battalion, even 3x3 sag guard is a touch under 500 pts.
grouchoben wrote: So is there ever any reason NOT to run Saggitarum Guard as your troops choices now? The fact that they can fire their weapons on both profiles (-1 to hit), and take a misericordia to give them 4 attacks each, makes them a lot more versatile than standard Custodes. I notice they're sold out on Forgeworld, and for good reason... I think this might make pure Custodes a lot more viable now.
I think there's a case to be made for taking some Guardians with at least 1 storm shield for midfield objective defending and a squad of 3-5 Pyrithite Spears for some tank busting as we can use any anti armor we can get. I think any Custodes Battalion should have at least 1 unit of Sagittarum though for sure.
Pestilens wrote: What we should play now with custodes, footodes or bikes???
I'm usually running a pure force, so I get a mix of both. It seems to work well enough for non-tournament play.
Seconded. Sagitarii, Wardens, Bikes and stickboys are a solid lineup for casual throwdowns. Adjust the ratios to taste, and consider sprinkling in some melta or sword and board guard depending on what your local scene looks like.
Mr. Funktastic wrote: Question about using the Praetorian Plate. If I put it on an Allarus SC and wanted to use it to teleport him down to a Dawneagle SC I nominated, could I use it while he's in deep strike reserves or does he need to be on the battlefield for it to work?
Personally I would rather go Ground and Pound, but I don't have the money for an All FW list.
So it's the Fast Attack Flyer list for me. That being said, I am really glad that with everything else these days, the Custodes Bike list is no longer TFG Meta list it once was.
Am I a complete madman for wanting to make a 3 musketeers list for casual play? Do you think i'd be better using deep strike for the contemptor, or slogging him at -1 to hit with his bigger brothers.
I feel like Custodies have the added advantage of being able to survive pretty much any Turn 1 attack due to their extremely hard to remove nature.
That being said, I tried to make this an "All in 1 round" type of list. Anything that survives the Gunships will get obliterated when the boys get out of the grav carrier and unload their HBs. Also, There is too much to target here. Either take down one of the Flying knights, or go after the ground troops and try to win by objectives. Either way The gunships should be able to wipe anything off the map easily.
I need some opinions on my footstodes list. This just a fun list for casual games against my buddies. In my next game I'll be facing necrons who will most likely run two big units of necron warriors for screening with a cryptek and a ghost ark right behind them. The necron list will also for sure run some immortals and at least one unit of destroyers, which is the single unit that always causes most troubles for me because of annihilation protocols.
My "strategy" if you can even call it that, is to run my units of guards up the field within the vexilla bubble. I'll keep my warden bomb in deepstrike with the stratagem and hopefully get them in a good spot on turn 2 with the vexilla teleport homer an delete anything they can get their hands on. The allarus are meant to port into his backfield and threaten his most valuable units like the destroyers (I know aquilon are way better, but I don't own them...yet)
I know this is far from a competitive list, but I'd be happy for any input.
changemod wrote: In general, given that you already need to shell out points for 2-3 shield captains. Is a vexilla actually worthwhile?
I've played my buddies necron list a couple of times now and yes, the vexilla with the magnifica is definitely worth it. Massively helps your guard to survive the shooting phase better.....though against destroyers with annihilation protocols, nothing really helps, they can consitently take out a unit of guards per shooting phase.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, mad at myself I never picked up on this, but does the flag make Overwatch impossible against Custodes without +1 modifiers?
No. Overwatch doesnt care about BS, or BS modifiers. Unless otherwise stated, it always hits on a 6.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, mad at myself I never picked up on this, but does the flag make Overwatch impossible against Custodes without +1 modifiers?
No. Overwatch doesnt care about BS, or BS modifiers. Unless otherwise stated, it always hits on a 6.
Also the rules of the Vexilla Magnifica specifically state that the -1 to hit only applies in the shooting phase.
Tiberias wrote: I need some opinions on my footstodes list. This just a fun list for casual games against my buddies. In my next game I'll be facing necrons who will most likely run two big units of necron warriors for screening with a cryptek and a ghost ark right behind them. The necron list will also for sure run some immortals and at least one unit of destroyers, which is the single unit that always causes most troubles for me because of annihilation protocols.
My "strategy" if you can even call it that, is to run my units of guards up the field within the vexilla bubble. I'll keep my warden bomb in deepstrike with the stratagem and hopefully get them in a good spot on turn 2 with the vexilla teleport homer an delete anything they can get their hands on. The allarus are meant to port into his backfield and threaten his most valuable units like the destroyers (I know aquilon are way better, but I don't own them...yet)
I know this is far from a competitive list, but I'd be happy for any input.
1) Swap the DJB captain for Trajann.
2) Consolidate the 4 units of guard into 3, 2 small & 1 big, add more shields - I find I need the 3++ if slogging it and you still benefit from cover on your 2+ save too if it’s there.
Aquilon with fists are good but Allarus are not that far behind tbh unless you need to take out Knights. I quite like dropping mine in and shutting down overwatch/giving them -1 hit; this is actually a thing worth doing against Tau and SM now they have their new codex. Plus an extra 4-5 axes isn’t bad melee at all.
That's the real kicker for me. I love my Allarus Custodians, and their axes do fine work, but you can't pass up that +3 damage per wound the fists now give. I mean, the Axes make sure you are wounding anything T8 or lower on a 4+ or better, and they cost less. Also, all the shenanigans you can do with the launchers is bananas.
I will stick with my Allarus, but I wish they would give their axes the same oomfh that the fists get.
Tiberias wrote: I need some opinions on my footstodes list. This just a fun list for casual games against my buddies. In my next game I'll be facing necrons who will most likely run two big units of necron warriors for screening with a cryptek and a ghost ark right behind them. The necron list will also for sure run some immortals and at least one unit of destroyers, which is the single unit that always causes most troubles for me because of annihilation protocols.
My "strategy" if you can even call it that, is to run my units of guards up the field within the vexilla bubble. I'll keep my warden bomb in deepstrike with the stratagem and hopefully get them in a good spot on turn 2 with the vexilla teleport homer an delete anything they can get their hands on. The allarus are meant to port into his backfield and threaten his most valuable units like the destroyers (I know aquilon are way better, but I don't own them...yet)
I know this is far from a competitive list, but I'd be happy for any input.
1) Swap the DJB captain for Trajann.
2) Consolidate the 4 units of guard into 3, 2 small & 1 big, add more shields - I find I need the 3++ if slogging it and you still benefit from cover on your 2+ save too if it’s there.
Aquilon with fists are good but Allarus are not that far behind tbh unless you need to take out Knights. I quite like dropping mine in and shutting down overwatch/giving them -1 hit; this is actually a thing worth doing against Tau and SM now they have their new codex. Plus an extra 4-5 axes isn’t bad melee at all.
Thank you for the advice. I know Trajann is good because of the re-roll 1 to wound aura, but the shield dawneagle shield captain has been invaluable in my last games....he's just so incredibly tanky. Is Trajann strictly better because of the bubble he provides?
Should I play two units of 3 guards with just spears and put all shields in the large unit? Also if I would add more shields, I'd have to scrap a guard because points. Regarding your advice to consolidate into a big unit of guards. I am asking this because I honestly don't know: what is the main benefit to have such a large unit? Avenge the fallen strategem? To create a sort of distraction carnifex, to ensure your other units can get to the enemy?
Tiberias wrote: I need some opinions on my footstodes list. This just a fun list for casual games against my buddies. In my next game I'll be facing necrons who will most likely run two big units of necron warriors for screening with a cryptek and a ghost ark right behind them. The necron list will also for sure run some immortals and at least one unit of destroyers, which is the single unit that always causes most troubles for me because of annihilation protocols.
My "strategy" if you can even call it that, is to run my units of guards up the field within the vexilla bubble. I'll keep my warden bomb in deepstrike with the stratagem and hopefully get them in a good spot on turn 2 with the vexilla teleport homer an delete anything they can get their hands on. The allarus are meant to port into his backfield and threaten his most valuable units like the destroyers (I know aquilon are way better, but I don't own them...yet)
I know this is far from a competitive list, but I'd be happy for any input.
1) Swap the DJB captain for Trajann.
2) Consolidate the 4 units of guard into 3, 2 small & 1 big, add more shields - I find I need the 3++ if slogging it and you still benefit from cover on your 2+ save too if it’s there.
Aquilon with fists are good but Allarus are not that far behind tbh unless you need to take out Knights. I quite like dropping mine in and shutting down overwatch/giving them -1 hit; this is actually a thing worth doing against Tau and SM now they have their new codex. Plus an extra 4-5 axes isn’t bad melee at all.
Thank you for the advice. I know Trajann is good because of the re-roll 1 to wound aura, but the shield dawneagle shield captain has been invaluable in my last games....he's just so incredibly tanky. Is Trajann strictly better because of the bubble he provides?
Should I play two units of 3 guards with just spears and put all shields in the large unit? Also if I would add more shields, I'd have to scrap a guard because points. Regarding your advice to consolidate into a big unit of guards. I am asking this because I honestly don't know: what is the main benefit to have such a large unit? Avenge the fallen strategem? To create a sort of distraction carnifex, to ensure your other units can get to the enemy?
Running a foot list I just rate Trajann. Reroll 1s to hit and wound on Wardens and Allarus has won me games. I’m not saying the DJBSC is a bad pick but there is a case for Trajann. Either is a solid pick & a matter of taste.
The main reason why I say more shields and a larger unit is that on foot you’re going to get shot at a lot getting into melee. I find that 1 shield or 3 spears just die a touch too easy if they get caught out of cover or are shot by ap-2+. Taking say 5 shields escorting your Vexilla ensures that it gets where it needs to be to allow your Wardens etc to drop. If you’re not sure then try your build, it’s fine and often it can be a case of what you play against, I played ultramarines packing lascannon dreads, scorpius and a storm talon and he was removing 3/4 man single shield squads a turn.
Ultimately I’m saying give it a go and see if 1 shield is enough for you. I’m a huge fan of a 3++ and it infuriates my opponents no end
Automatically Appended Next Post:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: That's the real kicker for me. I love my Allarus Custodians, and their axes do fine work, but you can't pass up that +3 damage per wound the fists now give. I mean, the Axes make sure you are wounding anything T8 or lower on a 4+ or better, and they cost less. Also, all the shenanigans you can do with the launchers is bananas.
I will stick with my Allarus, but I wish they would give their axes the same oomfh that the fists get.
Both solerite power gauntlets and castellan axes are D3 damage. Am I missing something re: damage of gauntlets?
Both solerite power gauntlets and castellan axes are D3 damage. Am I missing something re: damage of gauntlets?
It's not the damage characteristic, moreso the Str and AP of the fists that make them so effective.
Consider a T8 3+ target model like a Knight. With the Aquilon fists you go from wounding on a 4+ to a 3+, and their armour save goes from 5+ to no save. Just those 2 factors alone actually DOUBLE your expected damage output per Terminator (2.66 wounds per Allarus vs 5.33 per Aquilon).
A squad of 5 Aquilons is highly likely to 1-hit KO a Knight on thier own, whereas 5 Allarus almost certainly will not unless you start helping them out with strats and shooting. A Knight type target is exactly the kind of thing these guys should be thrown at so that's what makes Aquilons so much more appealing currently.
Both solerite power gauntlets and castellan axes are D3 damage. Am I missing something re: damage of gauntlets?
It's not the damage characteristic, moreso the Str and AP of the fists that make them so effective.
Consider a T8 3+ target model like a Knight. With the Aquilon fists you go from wounding on a 4+ to a 3+, and their armour save goes from 5+ to no save. Just those 2 factors alone actually DOUBLE your expected damage output per Terminator (2.66 wounds per Allarus vs 5.33 per Aquilon).
A squad of 5 Aquilons is highly likely to 1-hit KO a Knight on thier own, whereas 5 Allarus almost certainly will not unless you start helping them out with strats and shooting. A Knight type target is exactly the kind of thing these guys should be thrown at so that's what makes Aquilons so much more appealing currently.
Thanks, I’m aware of this. I was just confused because he said +3 damage, when he means +3 strength. The S10 certainly gives them the edge against T8 doesn’t it. I think post beta rules the Aquilon actually are our best bet at taking down knights.
Thanks, I’m aware of this. I was just confused because he said +3 damage, when he means +3 strength. The S10 certainly gives them the edge against T8 doesn’t it. I think post beta rules the Aquilon actually are our best bet at taking down knights.
Ah sorry I didn't see who you were replying to. Those posts of his always seem to be full of misinformation re: Rules.
Yeah absolutely, there's certainly no way to shoot them efficiently anymore. I think Wardens might also be an option seeing how cheap they are for the pain they put out, but you'll probably want to use castellan strike and FGLTC so needs CPs. Telemons with a fist continue to intrigue me as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yeah 8 Wardens will out damage 6 Aquilons vs a Knight for less points, as long as you use the Strat to make the axes AP -3. They're tougher per point also.
So, just was browsing the webstore for the cost of the ebook codex on Custodes, and noticed they sell a "warden vexhilla". Is this just a model, or can you give a warden with an axe a Vexhilla, and his 6+++? I thought it was just Allarus or regular?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, just was browsing the webstore for the cost of the ebook codex on Custodes, and noticed they sell a "warden vexhilla". Is this just a model, or can you give a warden with an axe a Vexhilla, and his 6+++?
Its just the Warden kit, which always came with a Vexilla. Simply more modeling options. Doesnt change the underlying datasheet.
iGuy91 wrote: So, do we have any real answers to the new breed of Iron Hands cheese coming down the pipe.
Roll 6s, and only 6s. Get into Melee without getting shot to pieces.
Honestly though, I am less worried about gimmicky elite armies that will likely get balanced when sales start to drop. As is, with everything else, teleport in Terminators, or a Vexhilla, and drop the Teleport Beacon. There is still very little that can handle a squad of 8 bikes with hurricane bolters dropping into the backfield, because of the teleport homer, and all those attacks.
Roll 6s, and only 6s. Get into Melee without getting shot to pieces.
Honestly though, I am less worried about gimmicky elite armies that will likely get balanced when sales start to drop. As is, with everything else, teleport in Terminators, or a Vexhilla, and drop the Teleport Beacon. There is still very little that can handle a squad of 8 bikes with hurricane bolters dropping into the backfield, because of the teleport homer, and all those attacks.
Perhaps you don't quite understand exactly what sort of cheese has been released in this new codex.
8 bikers charging an IH Leviathan dreadnought will do a grand total of.....
~7 expected damage, assuming it's affected by the Ironstone, and the Duty Eternal (I think it's called) stratagem. That's also assuming you don't lose a biker in overwatch to it's autocannons, which you probably will. Aquilons fare only a little better.
The IH player proceeds to fall back, effortlessly repair whatever damage you did, then wipe out your squad with his other 2 Leviathans.
----------------------
If you're unlucky enough to match up vs one of these lists I would go for characters to improve your odds a little, and just hope and pray basically. A trio of allied Vindicares might make your opponent a little more cagey when exposing his shooty castle, because it's pretty hard to hide characters behind either Leviathans or Repulsors. You might be able to go for objectives in that case and just hope that Custodes durability lasts long enough.q
Roll 6s, and only 6s. Get into Melee without getting shot to pieces.
Honestly though, I am less worried about gimmicky elite armies that will likely get balanced when sales start to drop. As is, with everything else, teleport in Terminators, or a Vexhilla, and drop the Teleport Beacon. There is still very little that can handle a squad of 8 bikes with hurricane bolters dropping into the backfield, because of the teleport homer, and all those attacks.
Perhaps you don't quite understand exactly what sort of cheese has been released in this new codex.
8 bikers charging an IH Leviathan dreadnought will do a grand total of.....
~7 expected damage, assuming it's affected by the Ironstone, and the Duty Eternal (I think it's called) stratagem. That's also assuming you don't lose a biker in overwatch to it's autocannons, which you probably will. Aquilons fare only a little better.
The IH player proceeds to fall back, effortlessly repair whatever damage you did, then wipe out your squad with his other 2 Leviathans.
----------------------
If you're unlucky enough to match up vs one of these lists I would go for characters to improve your odds a little, and just hope and pray basically. A trio of allied Vindicares might make your opponent a little more cagey when exposing his shooty castle, because it's pretty hard to hide characters behind either Leviathans or Repulsors. You might be able to go for objectives in that case and just hope that Custodes durability lasts long enough.q
Falling back from melee combat is too easy in this edition. There are so many flying unit that you can't tie down anyway and wrapping a leviathan so that it can't fall back is rather hard to do, considering we have nothing in our rules to help us charge.
The thing I was contemplating when facing iron hands is to just play a complete gunline list with only saggitarium, all the telemons you can field and some caladius....maybe with some aquilon to threaten the backfield. I hate that playstyle though and that would be a list that is again entirely dependent on forgeworld, which sucks because we have cool units in our codex that are simply not as good anymore (at least against stuff like iron hands). Also I would assume that if you were to play a more melee or even infantry focused custodes list against iron hands, that the 5+ overwatch (which can be buffed to 4+ I think with a stratagem) would be really brutal.
Roll 6s, and only 6s. Get into Melee without getting shot to pieces.
Honestly though, I am less worried about gimmicky elite armies that will likely get balanced when sales start to drop. As is, with everything else, teleport in Terminators, or a Vexhilla, and drop the Teleport Beacon. There is still very little that can handle a squad of 8 bikes with hurricane bolters dropping into the backfield, because of the teleport homer, and all those attacks.
Perhaps you don't quite understand exactly what sort of cheese has been released in this new codex.
8 bikers charging an IH Leviathan dreadnought will do a grand total of.....
~7 expected damage, assuming it's affected by the Ironstone, and the Duty Eternal (I think it's called) stratagem. That's also assuming you don't lose a biker in overwatch to it's autocannons, which you probably will. Aquilons fare only a little better.
The IH player proceeds to fall back, effortlessly repair whatever damage you did, then wipe out your squad with his other 2 Leviathans.
----------------------
If you're unlucky enough to match up vs one of these lists I would go for characters to improve your odds a little, and just hope and pray basically. A trio of allied Vindicares might make your opponent a little more cagey when exposing his shooty castle, because it's pretty hard to hide characters behind either Leviathans or Repulsors. You might be able to go for objectives in that case and just hope that Custodes durability lasts long enough.q
I was gonna say, ally in a vindicare or two, and snipe out the iron stone, techmarines, or librarians who can enact repairs.
Yeah, I don't expect the IH damage reduction to last another month. Tournaments are already banning Levis and outlawing certain IH combos. Expect GW to go back to common sense here shortly.
That being said, and I sound like Goku here, but punching things REALLY HARD remains our best option.
Well there's the 2 week FAQ where nerf might come. CA is too early for changes there so if it's not in the 2 week faq it's going to get nerfed next spring faq. So prepare for long slog over IH armies.
I just hope they don't run in the same direction, and all the sudden in order to compensate weapons suddenly become a LOT more damaging. Because GW doubling down on the dumb dumb is not unheard of.
My question for new list:
2 squads of 6x bikes w/ bolters = 1080 pts
or
2x squads of 6x Allarus 948.
The Termies will be better at destroying the big stuff and wiping out the back field. The bikes are better at wiping out chaff and holding positions. I've never based a list around Allarus but I want to see if they can perform for their points, and I have a local small event coming up. I feel the Termies will earn their points back better than the Bikes.
I really like the allarus terminators and they have nice stratagems. They can work well if you pull off a vexilla teleport homer, but if you have to count on them to make a charge if you port them into the enemy backfield without the vexilla, they become unreliable in my opinion.
The bikes are more agile, can clear hordes better with their hurricane bolters and hit as hard as the allarus against most things (at least on the charge).
I'd say go for the allarus and see if it works. They are a cool unit and they can do a lot of work if they manage to get to their target, I just think the bikes are more versatile in general
So here's the list I played with last night at a local FLGS. I had two games, one against a pretty much all Mech IH player, and one against a Tau player. The first game I actually won, mostly due to my opponent not knowing how to run IH yet, and how to really cheese me out. I took down both his repulsors and his contemptor on turn 2, which scared the hell out of him. VERY lucky charges by my termies, and a few unlucky wound saves by him. If he had more experience with IH, I would have easily lost.
The Tau whipped my butt. Just, nothing survived to turn 4. I'm not used to playing against Tau, and even when I got in close, his overwatch killed almost half my force, and then I couldn't effectively clear his shield drones without overwhelming firepower from Jetbikes, so I was screwed.
All in all, great anti-elite, anti-Heavy list. Loved how it completely chewed through the IH. TERRRIBLE at horde or gunline armies. That being said, I would chalk up a lot of the Tau loss to my personal mistakes and not being able to account for his defensive strategy.
+ HQ [16 PL, 248pts] +
Shield Captain in Allarus Terminator Armor [8 PL, 124pts]: Castellan Axe [14pts], Superior Creation, Warlord
. Raiment of Sorrows
Whats the point of running a squad of guards with swords, but without shields? Just to fill up a battalion?
Have you been able to pull off some teleport homer shenanigans with your terminator or do you just port them via standard deep strike and hope that they make their charges?
Some reviews of new units:
Sagittarium Guard: 8/10. Played a few games with these guys, and they are a solid Swiss Army knife of a unit (as long as you give them misericordias). They just quietly do work every turn, and in a list with bikes and terminators they just kind of get ignored. They are great at dealing with hordes and chaff units though I definitely missed the fly from my normal all-bikes/grav Tanks. One of the big benefits is the ability to use the ever-vigilant strat, which was largely wasted on normal guard or allarus. My main complaint is that with only 1 damage in shooting and melee they aren’t as efficient against Primaris as I would like though I had them shred normal marines. Definitely worth building a shooty battalion around.
Agmatus bikes: 7/10. Pulse lasers are great, though a bit situational. Definitely valuable in the space marine matchup, downsides are the heavy weapons and D3 damage since you’ll often be moving them. That said, starting at BS2 makes it not so bad and explaining them as “4 shot battlecannons” probably draws them a bit of extra firepower. Because they have fly they don’t get bogged down, but I miss 36 hurricane bolter shots so they are a bit situational with everything else I have in my list which bike unit to take.
Orion: 6/10. Works as a bunker, has a lot of shots. However, there is no shooting list which can’t down this thing in 2 turns even with -2 to hit for one of those. Screens will still keep you from getting your cargo from getting where it needs to. It draws all the shots, which can be nice but it’s still a big chunk of your points in an expensive army. Again on this one, wish more of the guns were D2 to make it a better elite-killing weapon.
Played a Space Wolf player last night, and I had TOTALLY forgotten they existed. I hadn't even seen their models since early 2018 and even then it was only one player.
Long story short, got stomped. I wasn't prepared for someone who wanted to get into melee more than me. I mean, I've been up against daemon lists that are 100% melee, but their "True Grit" strat that lets them shoot all their bolters in melee as Pistol 2 really got me.
I wasn't prepared. Is there a best way to counter Wulfen/Grey Hunter lists as Custodes?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Played a Space Wolf player last night, and I had TOTALLY forgotten they existed. I hadn't even seen their models since early 2018 and even then it was only one player.
Long story short, got stomped. I wasn't prepared for someone who wanted to get into melee more than me. I mean, I've been up against daemon lists that are 100% melee, but their "True Grit" strat that lets them shoot all their bolters in melee as Pistol 2 really got me.
I wasn't prepared. Is there a best way to counter Wulfen/Grey Hunter lists as Custodes?
The only thing in the Space Wolves Roster that could scare custodians in melee i can think of is Wulfen and Thunderwolf Cavalry.
This would be a case where i'd say your shooting gets dedicated to taking down whatever transport the Wulfen are in, and then blasting them off the board with either shooting or an assault.
Using a lot of tanglefoot grenades (movement and charge phase) can limit both these units mobility badly. You just need to dictate when and where you will engage them. Wulfen if they don't have storm shields are not by any means hard to kill.
Right, so they get +1 attacks in the charge phase, or if they are charged, they hit on 3s, and wound on 3s with their frost weapons. Each one carries about 3 attacks, and they each deal 2 damage. There are a lot more of them than of mine. They have a fight first thing, can't remember if it was psychic or just that unit, and they get extremely strong the more you kill. Their Primaris are even worse.
Maybe he just rolled well and I rolled crap, but it was only a 1k game so that likely had a lot to do with it.
Frost weapons are *NOT* D2. They're D1 souped up power weapons. The only way they get an army wide fight first is to kill one of your characters with their warlord, and I have no sodding clue what they used to beef up their lads as squad sizes drop.
In short, it sounds like you got rolled cause rules were misplayed. Custodians should have zero issues slicing grey hunters to ribbons. Wulfen can be an issue, but thats where you put your shooting.
Sad day for me. As you can tell by my lack of post I have decided to quit the army and 40k. I just can't work up the interest anymore and being burned so repeatedly by GW make decide to cut my losses and run. If anyone want my army its listed in the swap page.
I had a lot of fun doing battle reports with all of you and analyzing custodes. I wish you all the best and thank you for the fun times. Maybe Ill get back in later but a fond farewell for a least a good while from me.
Khadorstompy wrote: Sad day for me. As you can tell by my lack of post I have decided to quit the army and 40k. I just can't work up the interest anymore and being burned so repeatedly by GW make decide to cut my losses and run. If anyone want my army its listed in the swap page.
I had a lot of fun doing battle reports with all of you and analyzing custodes. I wish you all the best and thank you for the fun times. Maybe Ill get back in later but a fond farewell for a least a good while from me.
Khadorstompy wrote: Sad day for me. As you can tell by my lack of post I have decided to quit the army and 40k. I just can't work up the interest anymore and being burned so repeatedly by GW make decide to cut my losses and run. If anyone want my army its listed in the swap page.
I had a lot of fun doing battle reports with all of you and analyzing custodes. I wish you all the best and thank you for the fun times. Maybe Ill get back in later but a fond farewell for a least a good while from me.
I find a lot of enjoyment in post here, theorizing, building armies, getting called an idiot, being told I'm stupid.....yeah F this place.
But seriously, I wish you the best, and hope you find something else that gives you the enjoyment you deserve!
Ah I see. So he's trying to exploit the index wargear flowchart.
Pretty sure it doesn't work that way. It only lets you take wargear that doesn't have a codex equivalent. Which isn't the case here.
I'm sure we could argue back and forth for a while over whether a combination of equipment being more restrictive in the codex counts as 'not having a codex equivalent'. But it's not an debate I really care enough to have. I was merely pointing out a list building error.
So I'll leave it at that.
Do you guys regularly give your warlord victor of the blood games? It obviously makes shield captains incredibly tanky, especially if you also give him superior creation. I just wonder if it is worth the 2 cp.
Tiberias wrote: Do you guys regularly give your warlord victor of the blood games? It obviously makes shield captains incredibly tanky, especially if you also give him superior creation. I just wonder if it is worth the 2 cp.
It can be really good. If your warlord will be doing anything aside from providing reroll bubbles, I find it worthwhile. Its great on jetbike captains, eagle's eye terminator captains, and Trajann.
I generally deploy Trajann first, and then the character getting VOTBG, and then use the Moment Shackle to refund the CP, and basically get it for free.
Tiberias wrote: Do you guys regularly give your warlord victor of the blood games? It obviously makes shield captains incredibly tanky, especially if you also give him superior creation. I just wonder if it is worth the 2 cp.
I stopped shortly into playing the army. The cps I spent were almost always more impactful in other positions
To make it more clear, a jetbike captain is usually rerolling hits and wounds already and so it’s utility is mostly is saves, but you are already so tanky that it is unlikely the enemy will burn through your saves to kill you and to the reroll only gets a few uses a game, if any
Eihnlazer wrote: don't forget it also lets you reroll his damage roll. Pretty useful in finishing off a character you don't quite kill with a 1 damage roll.
It easily pays for itself in rerolls over the course of a game. Even if you don't use it on turn one, its potentially worth 10 CP in a 6 turn game.
There is a difference between 'is it worth the CP' and 'Do I need the CP elsewhere'.
Are those potential 10 re-rolls going to win you the game, or is that extra Stooping Dive/Avenge the Fallen or Tanglefoot Grenade going to have more impact?
Yes Victor of the Bloodgames is very good value over the course of a game but I find that most games I would rather have a key stratagem to use then a couple of re-rolls on a Shield Captain.
Eihnlazer wrote: don't forget it also lets you reroll his damage roll. Pretty useful in finishing off a character you don't quite kill with a 1 damage roll.
It easily pays for itself in rerolls over the course of a game. Even if you don't use it on turn one, its potentially worth 10 CP in a 6 turn game.
No damage rolls, just hit, wound and save rolls according to the strat description.
Have played a few games in the past with a pretty skilled Tau player. He often takes part in tournaments, and while I've never done so (and have no real urge to), we've played some real competitive games for us both to practice. He generally runs the following list:
HQ
Ethereal
Shadowsun
Cadre Fireblade
Quad-Fusion Coldstar OR Quad-Ion Commander
Troops
6x5 Fire Warriors
Elites
3x Sa'cea Marksmen
2x Riptides w. HBC
Fast Attack
3x6 Shield Drones
2x5 Pathfinders
Heavy Support
3x Broadsides w. HYMP + SMS
Now I've run every list I own against it and I've only been able to beat it once, that was down to really gakky deployment on his part letting my Leviathan mow down his Broadsides while he survived the Quad-Fusion. My other lists including Raven Castellan Knights are just useless due to his standard tactics:
1. Castle up and use Kau'yon
2. Advance Broadsides into LoS.
3. Marksmen pop 3 Markerlights on target of choice, pretty much guaranteed to hit thanks to Sa'cea. Use Uplinked Markerlight for extra counters.
4. Command and Control Node destroys everything.
We have a game planned on Monday in which I'm hoping to give my new Custodes units a go. Here's what I have planned.
HQ Trajan Valoris
Dawneagle Captain w. Auric Aquillas
Troops
5x Sagittarum w. Misericordias
2x3 Custodes w. SB/SS and 2x GS
Fast Attack
3x Vertus Praetors
Heavy Support
2x Caladius w. Arachnus Cannon
Telemon w. 2x Arachnus
I also have at my disposal, should I swap out anything for any of these?
3x Venatari
3x Aquilon Terminators
5x Wardens
2x Vexilla
2x Achillus Dreadnoughts
Orion Dropship
Is this list viable against them at all? What tactics should I be going for, and what should I avoid?
First of all, you need a vexilla magnifica. Even with -1 gradually getting nerfed it still has a lot of utility, especially against native BS4-5 armies. Your strategy basically needs to be the following: start as far away as you can, then spend the first 2 turns killing all his shield drones and pathfinders with your caladius. Nothing in that Tau list shoots as far as they do, so out range him. Once the drones are dead, kill the broadsides from range (bring the Telemon into range if he isn’t). As he moves up the table, move up your infantry but keep them out of LOS so he’s forced to move within charge range if he advances. If you’re playing ITC, sitting on more objectives than him while staying out of range and getting kills will win you the game but if you need to kill the other suits then just play the waiting game. There’s a very real possibility that the real bloody fighting will happen turn 5 and 6 if you’ve been real cagey, so make sure enough of your army is alive for when that happens.
In short, kill the pathfinders (get rid of marker lights) and kill the drones, cause until you do you you won’t be able to hurt anything else. Stay out of range.
greyknight12 wrote: First of all, you need a vexilla magnifica. Even with -1 gradually getting nerfed it still has a lot of utility, especially against native BS4-5 armies. Your strategy basically needs to be the following: start as far away as you can, then spend the first 2 turns killing all his shield drones and pathfinders with your caladius. Nothing in that Tau list shoots as far as they do, so out range him. Once the drones are dead, kill the broadsides from range (bring the Telemon into range if he isn’t). As he moves up the table, move up your infantry but keep them out of LOS so he’s forced to move within charge range if he advances. If you’re playing ITC, sitting on more objectives than him while staying out of range and getting kills will win you the game but if you need to kill the other suits then just play the waiting game. There’s a very real possibility that the real bloody fighting will happen turn 5 and 6 if you’ve been real cagey, so make sure enough of your army is alive for when that happens.
In short, kill the pathfinders (get rid of marker lights) and kill the drones, cause until you do you you won’t be able to hurt anything else. Stay out of range.
In that case what should I drop to get the Vexilla? Swapping out the 2 Arachnus for Illiastus Cannons on the Caladius and dropping a Sagittarum would work.
Additionally, is it worth swapping out one of the Custodes units for another squad of Sagittarum?
Lastly, one idea I had in mind would be to proxy the Aquilon Terminators as Allarus and drop them in. Use Concussive Grenades to deny Overwatch for 3 units, then charge in, at least locking the Broadsides up for a turn. Bit risky as if they fail the charge they're pretty screwed.
I'd not rely on a single squad of allarus making the necessary 9 inch charge. It is also easy for the tau player to screen his valuable units with small drone units. So even if you pull off the charge, you can only make it into a unit of drones, and next turn they get shot to bits
Concussive strat only works against infantry. I would pare down the custodian guard squads to fit the vexilla in, or swap to a different detachment (vanguard and/or spearhead) and use wardens and Aquilons instead. But up to you, the durability of the shield guard may be more useful if you’ve got a lot of objectives to hold.
I'm curious, if we were to ever get a custodes codex 2.0, what would you like to see in it?
I would like to see the sisters of silence baked into the codex for some awsome talons of the emperor action. Creating different boni for taking sisters in a detatchment would be awsome too. Like you get a bonus if you play pure custodes, you get a different one if you play pure sisters (yes, I'd want that to be possible too) and you get antoher bonus if you play a mixed detachment.
I'd also like to see more flavourful special rules for the custodian guard to emphasize their elite warrior status. Like if you have at least 2 sword and board guys in a unit, the unit is -1 to hit in melee only.
Or if you have at least 2 spear guys in a unit, they get something akin to the block rule they briefly had in 7th ed.
They're already so Elite in stats and rules to begin with. Just appropriate pricing (so many things are pretty close to begin with) and we would be solid. That said, better Dreads would be good, and Land Raiders already have universal problems that can't be fixed in the codex itself.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: They're already so Elite in stats and rules to begin with. Just appropriate pricing (so many things are pretty close to begin with) and we would be solid. That said, better Dreads would be good, and Land Raiders already have universal problems that can't be fixed in the codex itself.
Are they though? Sure they are very good against other multi wound, elite infantry, not so much against hordes and sure they are very durable according to their stats, but stats don't really matter as much as who gets the charge. If you get charged by khorne berzerkers, you die. If you get chargen by ork boyz you're probably dead also because of the absolutely ridiculous number of dice thrown at you.
The changes I proposed would only make them more durable against stuff thats already amazingly strong in melee.
Edit: Also I think this whole changing of point values to fix balance in this edition just doesn't tackle the underlying issue of the stupid number of dice, ridiculous abundance of re-rolls and dependence to get the charge.
Full choppa unit charging and somehow getting into combat(never happened to me vs custodes even with my 25mm bases as opponents position correctly) gets less than 5 wounds in average vs custodians. In practice less
You think in absolute ideal scenario full ork unit costing over 200 pts vs carelessly positioned unit shouldn't kill even 1 custodian?
Agreed with above, math above all not anecdotal experiences.
Think about if from the other players POV, if they charged your unit with a horde of 20 bio-engineered CC killing machines and failed to do any meaningful damage on a regular basis, would they be likely to cry out for buffs to Ork Boyz in the Ork version 2 codex?
I also disagree wholeheartedly that there is anything that cannot be appropriately balanced with points. Lets take it to the extreme and say that Custodian Guard go down to 10ppm or something crazy in the upcoming CA. Do you think being vulnerable to weight of dice and failing charges would still be one of your balance complaints when you can afford to bring 5 times as many into the same sized army? Of course not, they would be crazy overpowered and the nasty Orks or Khorne Beserkers you're worried about wouldn't stand a chance.
That's never gonna happpen but it does show that between 50+ ppm and 10ppm there must be a point at which your perceived idea of balance between these two types of units is effectively equal, right?
Tiberias wrote: So you think if we ever were to get an updated codex, only points values should be adjusted?
I don't think that's what anyone said.
I'd like our Codex to get scrapped and replaced with Codex: Talons of the Emperor. Bring in FW's line of Sisters of Silence too. Give us like 3-6 'Chapters' to pick from for bonuses. Some type of Lieutenant-eauivalent would be nice too (ideally a SoS generic HQ since we could use one of those anyway).
Probably very unlikely, but I'd love if a SoS unit could also be turned into Troops (I guess the Bolter squad is most likely).
Tiberias wrote: So you think if we ever were to get an updated codex, only points values should be adjusted?
I don't think that's what anyone said.
I'd like our Codex to get scrapped and replaced with Codex: Talons of the Emperor. Bring in FW's line of Sisters of Silence too. Give us like 3-6 'Chapters' to pick from for bonuses. Some type of Lieutenant-eauivalent would be nice too (ideally a SoS generic HQ since we could use one of those anyway).
Probably very unlikely, but I'd love if a SoS unit could also be turned into Troops (I guess the Bolter squad is most likely).
Maybe I expressed myself badly, I did not infer that this was the only thing you thought should change. As I've mentioned previously, I completely agree with you, a codex Talons of the Emperor would be really great.
I was just wondering if you thought that regarding for example the custodian guard, only points values should change. Also I don't claim that my suggestions were great and should be implemeted as is, I just think they would be very flavourful and fit the unit well. Now I just personally think that giving them a flavourful special rule for including a certain amout of shield/spear guys in a unit or mixing them, would be really cool considering we do not have a lot of variety as far as units are concerned. This might combat that lack of variety when you can tailor the unit and the bonuses they get based on their composition of sword/board and spear guys according to your matchup.
Tiberias wrote: So you think if we ever were to get an updated codex, only points values should be adjusted?
I don't think that's what anyone said.
I'd like our Codex to get scrapped and replaced with Codex: Talons of the Emperor. Bring in FW's line of Sisters of Silence too. Give us like 3-6 'Chapters' to pick from for bonuses. Some type of Lieutenant-eauivalent would be nice too (ideally a SoS generic HQ since we could use one of those anyway).
Probably very unlikely, but I'd love if a SoS unit could also be turned into Troops (I guess the Bolter squad is most likely).
Maybe I expressed myself badly, I did not infer that this was the only thing you thought should change. As I've mentioned previously, I completely agree with you, a codex Talons of the Emperor would be really great.
I was just wondering if you thought that regarding for example the custodian guard, only points values should change. Also I don't claim that my suggestions were great and should be implemeted as is, I just think they would be very flavourful and fit the unit well. Now I just personally think that giving them a flavourful special rule for including a certain amout of shield/spear guys in a unit or mixing them, would be really cool considering we do not have a lot of variety as far as units are concerned. This might combat that lack of variety when you can tailor the unit and the bonuses they get based on their composition of sword/board and spear guys according to your matchup.
I don't think squad composition bonuses make sense for Custodes when viewed with their background of being high individual soldiers that don't really fight together as a single unit.
Tiberias wrote: So you think if we ever were to get an updated codex, only points values should be adjusted?
I don't think that's what anyone said.
I'd like our Codex to get scrapped and replaced with Codex: Talons of the Emperor. Bring in FW's line of Sisters of Silence too. Give us like 3-6 'Chapters' to pick from for bonuses. Some type of Lieutenant-eauivalent would be nice too (ideally a SoS generic HQ since we could use one of those anyway).
Probably very unlikely, but I'd love if a SoS unit could also be turned into Troops (I guess the Bolter squad is most likely).
Maybe I expressed myself badly, I did not infer that this was the only thing you thought should change. As I've mentioned previously, I completely agree with you, a codex Talons of the Emperor would be really great.
I was just wondering if you thought that regarding for example the custodian guard, only points values should change. Also I don't claim that my suggestions were great and should be implemeted as is, I just think they would be very flavourful and fit the unit well. Now I just personally think that giving them a flavourful special rule for including a certain amout of shield/spear guys in a unit or mixing them, would be really cool considering we do not have a lot of variety as far as units are concerned. This might combat that lack of variety when you can tailor the unit and the bonuses they get based on their composition of sword/board and spear guys according to your matchup.
I don't think squad composition bonuses make sense for Custodes when viewed with their background of being high individual soldiers that don't really fight together as a single unit.
You're right actually, can't really argue with that. Well, disregard what I said
You could make “unleash the lions” apply to any Custodes unit, not just Allarus. Or make it a pre-game deployment option for some units, like combat squads.
greyknight12 wrote: You could make “unleash the lions” apply to any Custodes unit, not just Allarus. Or make it a pre-game deployment option for some units, like combat squads.
That would be really cool.I hope they do that if our codex ever get updated
The melta spears seem like a real win, only 4 points more than regular spears. Take your off misericordia and slap them on your guys. I'm thinking 5 melta spears and a storm shielded Magnifica go into the Coronus, dump the guys into melta range and next turn vexilla homer your terminators in.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
greyknight12 wrote: You could make “unleash the lions” apply to any Custodes unit, not just Allarus. Or make it a pre-game deployment option for some units, like combat squads.
Man that would be frustrating for the other guy. I would be unleashing like 10 guys at a time. Can you imagine facing 20+ custodes and only being able to charge or shoot at them one at a time?
_SeeD_ wrote: The melta spears seem like a real win, only 4 points more than regular spears. Take your off misericordia and slap them on your guys. I'm thinking 5 melta spears and a storm shielded Magnifica go into the Coronus, dump the guys into melta range and next turn vexilla homer your terminators in.
Yeah they're pretty sweet for the cost, Adrasite spears are solid as well being Assault and the same cost as Guardian Spears - you don't sacrifice all your shooting while hoofing it up the field if the squad is footslogging. One point of interest I noted recently is that 'Piercing Strike' only works for conventional Guardian Spears from the codex, as the strat mentions them by name. Maybe we can petition GW to have the stratagem wording extended to cover the new unit as well.
_SeeD_ wrote: The melta spears seem like a real win, only 4 points more than regular spears. Take your off misericordia and slap them on your guys. I'm thinking 5 melta spears and a storm shielded Magnifica go into the Coronus, dump the guys into melta range and next turn vexilla homer your terminators in.
Yeah they're pretty sweet for the cost, Adrasite spears are solid as well being Assault and the same cost as Guardian Spears - you don't sacrifice all your shooting while hoofing it up the field if the squad is footslogging. One point of interest I noted recently is that 'Piercing Strike' only works for conventional Guardian Spears from the codex, as the strat mentions them by name. Maybe we can petition GW to have the stratagem wording extended to cover the new unit as well.
The forgeworld terminators don't get the vanilla terminator rules or strats. I don't see this happening, either, unfortunately. Maybe in a Custodes Supplement? That would be dope.
_SeeD_ wrote: The melta spears seem like a real win, only 4 points more than regular spears. Take your off misericordia and slap them on your guys. I'm thinking 5 melta spears and a storm shielded Magnifica go into the Coronus, dump the guys into melta range and next turn vexilla homer your terminators in.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
greyknight12 wrote: You could make “unleash the lions” apply to any Custodes unit, not just Allarus. Or make it a pre-game deployment option for some units, like combat squads.
Man that would be frustrating for the other guy. I would be unleashing like 10 guys at a time. Can you imagine facing 20+ custodes and only being able to charge or shoot at them one at a time?
But you could just declare charges against all of them if you can reach them, can you not? Even if there are 10 seperate units of singleton custodes.
_SeeD_ wrote: The melta spears seem like a real win, only 4 points more than regular spears. Take your off misericordia and slap them on your guys. I'm thinking 5 melta spears and a storm shielded Magnifica go into the Coronus, dump the guys into melta range and next turn vexilla homer your terminators in.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
greyknight12 wrote: You could make “unleash the lions” apply to any Custodes unit, not just Allarus. Or make it a pre-game deployment option for some units, like combat squads.
Man that would be frustrating for the other guy. I would be unleashing like 10 guys at a time. Can you imagine facing 20+ custodes and only being able to charge or shoot at them one at a time?
But you could just declare charges against all of them if you can reach them, can you not? Even if there are 10 seperate units of singleton custodes.
_SeeD_ wrote: The melta spears seem like a real win, only 4 points more than regular spears. Take your off misericordia and slap them on your guys. I'm thinking 5 melta spears and a storm shielded Magnifica go into the Coronus, dump the guys into melta range and next turn vexilla homer your terminators in.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
greyknight12 wrote: You could make “unleash the lions” apply to any Custodes unit, not just Allarus. Or make it a pre-game deployment option for some units, like combat squads.
Man that would be frustrating for the other guy. I would be unleashing like 10 guys at a time. Can you imagine facing 20+ custodes and only being able to charge or shoot at them one at a time?
But you could just declare charges against all of them if you can reach them, can you not? Even if there are 10 seperate units of singleton custodes.
Would still be rather tough for opponent to deal with though. Do you split fire? Say hello to multiple wounded but 100% damage outputting models. Concentrate? Say hello to wasted firepower.
_SeeD_ wrote: The melta spears seem like a real win, only 4 points more than regular spears. Take your off misericordia and slap them on your guys. I'm thinking 5 melta spears and a storm shielded Magnifica go into the Coronus, dump the guys into melta range and next turn vexilla homer your terminators in.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
greyknight12 wrote: You could make “unleash the lions” apply to any Custodes unit, not just Allarus. Or make it a pre-game deployment option for some units, like combat squads.
Man that would be frustrating for the other guy. I would be unleashing like 10 guys at a time. Can you imagine facing 20+ custodes and only being able to charge or shoot at them one at a time?
But you could just declare charges against all of them if you can reach them, can you not? Even if there are 10 seperate units of singleton custodes.
Yup. I hope I didn't confuse you.
Confuse me? I just don't understand the issue then. It would not make a big difference when charging them and shooting is too strong in 8th anyway. You couldn't focus fire the entire unit...so what? Custodes are very low in numbers anyway and we usually do not have many cp, so in combination with re-rolls and other strategems, you most likely could not split up every unit. Making it a bit harder to shoot your infantry off the table would maybe enable lists that don't play caladius tanks and telemons every single time to be competitive.
I think it could just be a bit of an administrative nightmare within the game if abused, mostly for your opponents shooting. With Allarus its kind've curtailed by their relative cost, but if you could split up Custodian Guard squads it would just be unwieldy if your opponent had to constantly split shooting to be efficient.
One thing I'd like to see is making the basic custodes gun a bit more efficient, in the end, it's just a master crafted bolter. The 2 damage is nice, but it's not often when it comes into play considering that you dont really do a whole lot of shooting(or have guys with the guns for that matter) outside of praetors who have different guns.
It could be a myriad of different thing in the end. Rapid fire 2 would be my choice.
EDIT: with the caveat that forge world is not really played around here, otherwise I'd be down with them sagittarum - they seem ace.
Spartacus wrote:I think it could just be a bit of an administrative nightmare within the game if abused, mostly for your opponents shooting. With Allarus its kind've curtailed by their relative cost, but if you could split up Custodian Guard squads it would just be unwieldy if your opponent had to constantly split shooting to be efficient.
So all those Iron Hands players would suddenly have to think how they focus all their shooting?! You're right we couldn't do that, how would they ever cope?
wighti wrote:One thing I'd like to see is making the basic custodes gun a bit more efficient, in the end, it's just a master crafted bolter. The 2 damage is nice, but it's not often when it comes into play considering that you dont really do a whole lot of shooting(or have guys with the guns for that matter) outside of praetors who have different guns.
It could be a myriad of different thing in the end. Rapid fire 2 would be my choice.
EDIT: with the caveat that forge world is not really played around here, otherwise I'd be down with them sagittarum - they seem ace.
I get that, however it seems to me as though GW has designed custodes as a melee focused force. I say keep our shooting crappy in the sense that we have a low volume of fire, but if we wound we do more damage like the guardian spears do, but give us better tools to really be a melee centered army. Like giving one of our weapons two profiles: a focused attack with high strength and ap and a sweep attack where every attack counts as three, but with lower strength to be able to deal with hordes.
I think we're already plenty deadly to hordes and armor (Hurricane Jetbikes, Aquilons, e.t.c.). What we could really use for melee is more reliability GETTING into combat. Some type of re-roll charge aura, maybe a 3D6 stratagem, e.t.c. This would help us out IMMENSLY I think.
Audustum wrote: I think we're already plenty deadly to hordes and armor (Hurricane Jetbikes, Aquilons, e.t.c.). What we could really use for melee is more reliability GETTING into combat. Some type of re-roll charge aura, maybe a 3D6 stratagem, e.t.c. This would help us out IMMENSLY I think.
Getting at least some help charging would be great I agree. Like a 2-3cp stratagem that lets us advance and charge.
Also yes, our jetbikes are very good against hordes. I am just advocating for our infantry to get something useful in that regard also (leaving forge world aside for a moment, because we all know that our uber-terminators from forgeworld basically do everything better than our codex units). With sagittarium becoming troops I fear that our normal custodian guard will fade into obscurity in time should they not get at least something, doesn't have to be as powerful as the buttload of hurricane bolter shots our bikes can dish out, but something.
Because let's be honest, if someone goes for a battalion nowadays the sagittarium are just more attractive as a troop choice that you can park on a backfield objective in good conscience. If you do that with our normal custodian guard they just feel wasted. The sagittarium are cheaper, shoot better, and are no slouch in melee either if you give them misericordias.
You can magnetize your guardians to equip guardian spears, adrasite spears, melta spears, sentinal blade/SS or the Sagittarum loadout depending on what situation you think you're going to face.
_SeeD_ wrote: You can magnetize your guardians to equip guardian spears, adrasite spears, melta spears, sentinal blade/SS or the Sagittarum loadout depending on what situation you think you're going to face.
You could with the adrasite and phyrrite spears, but I disagree that you could do it very well with the sword/shield and the sagittarium loadout. I've built 16 custodian guard so far. Most of them with spears, some with sword n board and I was very adamant about giving every single one a different pose, because that was just something that was important to me and I was able to do so quite well by mixing them with the warden kit. If I initially build a guard in a pose that looks good with a spear for example I could never bring myself to magnetize that model just so I can slap a sword and a shield on it in a weird position, it would just look horrendously awful in my opinion. So just for me personally, that would never be an option.
Also I kinda fail to see your point in regards to my previous post.
_SeeD_ wrote: You can magnetize your guardians to equip guardian spears, adrasite spears, melta spears, sentinal blade/SS or the Sagittarum loadout depending on what situation you think you're going to face.
You could with the adrasite and phyrrite spears, but I disagree that you could do it very well with the sword/shield and the sagittarium loadout. I've built 16 custodian guard so far. Most of them with spears, some with sword n board and I was very adamant about giving every single one a different pose, because that was just something that was important to me and I was able to do so quite well by mixing them with the warden kit. If I initially build a guard in a pose that looks good with a spear for example I could never bring myself to magnetize that model just so I can slap a sword and a shield on it in a weird position, it would just look horrendously awful in my opinion. So just for me personally, that would never be an option.
Also I kinda fail to see your point in regards to my previous post.
I wasn't responding to you, broski. That's why I didn't use a quote. =)
_SeeD_ wrote: You can magnetize your guardians to equip guardian spears, adrasite spears, melta spears, sentinal blade/SS or the Sagittarum loadout depending on what situation you think you're going to face.
Can't magnatize Sagittarum. They're a different base size (smaller) than the rest. Otherwise good!
_SeeD_ wrote: You can magnetize your guardians to equip guardian spears, adrasite spears, melta spears, sentinal blade/SS or the Sagittarum loadout depending on what situation you think you're going to face.
Can't magnatize Sagittarum. They're a different base size (smaller) than the rest. Otherwise good!
Are tournaments picky about stuff like that? Casual play (I hope) would be alright.
I'm looking at the forgeworld page and I'm a little baffled. Why the hell are the bases smaller? The custodian guard sprues that are supplied are EXACTLY the same as the GW ones.
Edit: Also, forgeworld sells the Sagittarum as an upgrade kit, expecting you to add it on to your guardians. Makes no sense.
_SeeD_ wrote: You can magnetize your guardians to equip guardian spears, adrasite spears, melta spears, sentinal blade/SS or the Sagittarum loadout depending on what situation you think you're going to face.
Can't magnatize Sagittarum. They're a different base size (smaller) than the rest. Otherwise good!
Are tournaments picky about stuff like that? Casual play (I hope) would be alright.
I'm looking at the forgeworld page and I'm a little baffled. Why the hell are the bases smaller? The custodian guard sprues that are supplied are EXACTLY the same as the GW ones.
Edit: Also, forgeworld sells the Sagittarum as an upgrade kit, expecting you to add it on to your guardians. Makes no sense.
I'd be surprised if that doesn't change soon (the bases they come with I mean). Doesn't make sense to be different from Custodian Guard.
Regarding different base sizes, GW says to use whatever bases the unit came on. Since the majority of the model is in fact Custodian Guard (and you just upgrade them with a sprue) its reasonable to call the normal sized base the one it came with. A while ago I read that the general/GW stance is that any base size is fine as long as its reasonable and not smaller than what they're normally on, so keeping them on Custodian Guard size bases should be ok either way (not sure where I read that tbh).
Additionally, no player you come across is likely to ever try and call you on it because who the hell would know aside from other Custodes players.
I honestly think that the base size for the sagittarium that is mentioned on the FW site is an honest mistake.
As far as I understand it the sagittarium come with the standard custodian guard kit plus the resin upgrade kit for the sagittarium and the standard custodian guard kit has 40mm bases
Or does someone have confirmation that they specifically come with extra 32mm bases.
Edit: also if you look at the stock pictures of the sagittarium on FWs site, they clearly all have 40mm bases, because if you were to build a custodes with a wide stance, his feet would probably touch the edges of a 32mm base, and they clearly don't if you look at the pictures.
Also they would have to specifically include 32mm bases if you just buy the upgrade kit, which I don't think they do.
I just ordered 3 sag kits. I'll let you know when they come in, but the pics shown are 40mm based and it's a resin upgrade that goes into the standard plastic kit. Anything on the FW page stating otherwise is very likely a typo. I'll check back in when my models arrive.
I'm guessing they really are on different bases. The bases that came with my Aquilon terminators are significantly larger than the ones I see on Allarus terminators for some weird reason.
slave.entity wrote: I'm guessing they really are on different bases. The bases that came with my Aquilon terminators are significantly larger than the ones I see on Allarus terminators for some weird reason.
The aquilon have 50mm bases, I can confirm this. They are also a bit bigger and thicker than the allarus.
It does not automatically follow however that the sagittarium have 32 bases, since like we already discussed, they are an upgrade kit for the standard custodian guard, which have 40mm bases.
Another question for those who play wardens on a more regular basis: do you have good experiences getting them into combat with a coronus?
Spartacus wrote:I think it could just be a bit of an administrative nightmare within the game if abused, mostly for your opponents shooting. With Allarus its kind've curtailed by their relative cost, but if you could split up Custodian Guard squads it would just be unwieldy if your opponent had to constantly split shooting to be efficient.
So all those Iron Hands players would suddenly have to think how they focus all their shooting?! You're right we couldn't do that, how would they ever cope?
Do you fancy orks shooting their units 3 guy at a time times 10?-) then same for next unit
Spartacus wrote:I think it could just be a bit of an administrative nightmare within the game if abused, mostly for your opponents shooting. With Allarus its kind've curtailed by their relative cost, but if you could split up Custodian Guard squads it would just be unwieldy if your opponent had to constantly split shooting to be efficient.
So all those Iron Hands players would suddenly have to think how they focus all their shooting?! You're right we couldn't do that, how would they ever cope?
Do you fancy orks shooting their units 3 guy at a time times 10?-) then same for next unit
So what? Orks throw a ridiculous number of dice every turn anyway. You sound like that is some unthinkable scenario, but you can do this with your allarus already and if you change the stratagem to be usable on other infantry units, you would have to up the cost which means you could probably only split up 2 units max every game with how many cp custodes usually have. So this is not some game changing administrative nightmare you make it out to be.
It's different rolling 30 dice at once and 30 dices in 10 batches of 3. And then again. And then again.
The picker the pool you can roll the faster it goes. If they get split to 3 dice pools that's going to slow down obviously. And 8th ed is already the slowest edition only kept somewhat sane by the ridiculous kill rate.
tneva82 wrote: It's different rolling 30 dice at once and 30 dices in 10 batches of 3. And then again. And then again.
The picker the pool you can roll the faster it goes. If they get split to 3 dice pools that's going to slow down obviously. And 8th ed is already the slowest edition only kept somewhat sane by the ridiculous kill rate.
I am not sure what your point is. That unleash the lions should be removed alltogether? Because again, if you break up a bigger unit of allarus, your horror scenario would also come to pass.
tneva82 wrote: It's different rolling 30 dice at once and 30 dices in 10 batches of 3. And then again. And then again.
The picker the pool you can roll the faster it goes. If they get split to 3 dice pools that's going to slow down obviously. And 8th ed is already the slowest edition only kept somewhat sane by the ridiculous kill rate.
I am not sure what your point is. That unleash the lions should be removed alltogether? Because again, if you break up a bigger unit of allarus, your horror scenario would also come to pass.
As I alluded to in my original post on this topic, it doesn't really apply to Allarus because they are:
1. More points/wounds per model so less prone to overkill when shot at one by one,
2. Max squad size of 6, and Elites
3. Pretty inefficient in terms of offensive power relative to Wardens, Jetbikes, Custodian Guard etc, so they need the exclusive stratagems to maintain their niche
Look, its not going to totally bust the game wide open if this does somehow get changed to affect all infantry squads for some random reason, I don't know why you keep misrepresenting peoples posts and weirdly bringing balance vs OP stuff like IH into everything, it's not really related to balance at all. Hell, I'm a Custodes player, it'd be great to have another option to play with. I'm only explaining what I think is the reason behind that strat being Allarus only from GW's point of view, who have said that they want to try and focus 8th ed. rules into being as streamlined as possible. As tneva82 pointed out, there are potential shooting/assault scenarios where the drudgery of splitting heaps of attacks from a unit to target 10 micro units to avoid overkill, is not streamlined.
It's not going to happen anyway, not at least until another Custodes codex swings around. Normally I wouldn't have bothered to reply but to be honest your posts in this thread just seem full of needless spite and making big deals out of nothing. I'm sure I speak for many posters here when I say maybe just tone it down a little, this isn't the General Discussion section.
Not to mention, Unleash The Lions is the start of the movement phase, correct?
So the opponent pretty much always gets a chance to retort BEFORE the Lions get Unleashed. The only time they wouldn't would be if you get first turn, start your Allarus on the board, and Unleash them T1.
tneva82 wrote: It's different rolling 30 dice at once and 30 dices in 10 batches of 3. And then again. And then again.
The picker the pool you can roll the faster it goes. If they get split to 3 dice pools that's going to slow down obviously. And 8th ed is already the slowest edition only kept somewhat sane by the ridiculous kill rate.
I am not sure what your point is. That unleash the lions should be removed alltogether? Because again, if you break up a bigger unit of allarus, your horror scenario would also come to pass.
As I alluded to in my original post on this topic, it doesn't really apply to Allarus because they are:
1. More points/wounds per model so less prone to overkill when shot at one by one,
2. Max squad size of 6, and Elites
3. Pretty inefficient in terms of offensive power relative to Wardens, Jetbikes, Custodian Guard etc, so they need the exclusive stratagems to maintain their niche
Look, its not going to totally bust the game wide open if this does somehow get changed to affect all infantry squads for some random reason, I don't know why you keep misrepresenting peoples posts and weirdly bringing balance vs OP stuff like IH into everything, it's not really related to balance at all. Hell, I'm a Custodes player, it'd be great to have another option to play with. I'm only explaining what I think is the reason behind that strat being Allarus only from GW's point of view, who have said that they want to try and focus 8th ed. rules into being as streamlined as possible. As tneva82 pointed out, there are potential shooting/assault scenarios where the drudgery of splitting heaps of attacks from a unit to target 10 micro units to avoid overkill, is not streamlined.
It's not going to happen anyway, not at least until another Custodes codex swings around. Normally I wouldn't have bothered to reply but to be honest your posts in this thread just seem full of needless spite and making big deals out of nothing. I'm sure I speak for many posters here when I say maybe just tone it down a little, this isn't the General Discussion section.
My posts are full of needless spite because I genuenly asked you what your point was, seriously? Regarding unleash the lions I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
wandering back into the hobby, building out my custodes. trying to clear the dust off my gaming brain, please refresh my memory. i know wardens aren't the best, but if taking them, iirc you build them with spears instead of axes because the +1 to wound spear strat is better than the -1AP axe strat.
does that still hold, or have things changed? building them with spears also opens up just proxying them as guard for larger squads if that ever becomes a thing.
gigasnail wrote: wandering back into the hobby, building out my custodes. trying to clear the dust off my gaming brain, please refresh my memory. i know wardens aren't the best, but if taking them, iirc you build them with spears instead of axes because the +1 to wound spear strat is better than the -1AP axe strat.
does that still hold, or have things changed? building them with spears also opens up just proxying them as guard for larger squads if that ever becomes a thing.
Indeed it is still the same.
I wish the Piercing Strike strat applied to the melta spears too.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Has anyone crunched the numbers to determine whether Superior Creation or Radiant Mantle prevents more damage? My gut says SC, but I could be wrong.
It's situational. Against armies with trash BS, (orks) then -1 to hit is great, and FNP isn't. Against Elite armies with high damage shooting and good BS, the FNP is better.
Also, I will always take axes over spears on Wardens. What are you going to attack with a Warden that a S6 weapon with Plus 1 to wound is better than a S8 weapon?
Tank T7/8: Spears wound on 4s. Axes wound on 4s.
Infantry: Spears will wound on 2/3s. Axes will wound on 2s.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: It's situational. Against armies with trash BS, (orks) then -1 to hit is great, and FNP isn't. Against Elite armies with high damage shooting and good BS, the FNP is better.
Also, I will always take axes over spears on Wardens. What are you going to attack with a Warden that a S6 weapon with Plus 1 to wound is better than a S8 weapon?
Tank T7/8: Spears wound on 4s. Axes wound on 4s.
Infantry: Spears will wound on 2/3s. Axes will wound on 2s.
What am I missing?
T5 the spears can wound on 2s, T9 the spears wound on 4s (axes are 3 and 5 respectively). Considering those aren’t super common, I’d stick with axes.
The radiant mantle vs superior creation has been run much earlier in the thread, but I’ll summarize: SC reduces all incoming damage by 1/3 effectively, RM reduces by the same amount against WS/BS 4 and by half against WS/BS 5. However, that doesn’t take into account hit modifiers or re-rolls, even re-roll 1s would make RM worse against WS/BS 4 than SC. There are fringe cases where the magnifica banner+RM are quite good, but the character rule means that he’s probably not going to be targeted anyway. Finally, the things a shield captain is really worried about (especially a bike one) are WS/BS 2-3 and often packing re-rolls so SC is better.
ok great, i was just mis-remembering then. thanks.
also, i just got the kits for my sag. guard. it's the standard custodian guard kit, with an upgrade package with the arms/heads. they do not come with any other bases than what is in the guard kit, which are 40mm.
gigasnail wrote: ok great, i was just mis-remembering then. thanks.
also, i just got the kits for my sag. guard. it's the standard custodian guard kit, with an upgrade package with the arms/heads. they do not come with any other bases than what is in the guard kit, which are 40mm.
Can confirm. I built 10 of my own a few weeks ago. Its the standard base that comes with a custodian guard.
Can someone confirm what base to use for a Caladus tank? I see the photos on the FW website show it with a really small one, but I don't think it needs one? I am making kitbash and I didn't know if it needed to be based.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Can someone confirm what base to use for a Caladus tank? I see the photos on the FW website show it with a really small one, but I don't think it needs one? I am making kitbash and I didn't know if it needed to be based.
The base it needs is the 170x105mm oval base as posted above. The model will not balance on the small base in the pic you’ve posted above, that small base is superglued to the large oval base. I’d guess that FW have just edited the photo.
As long as you don't play with the SoCal open terrain rules, you can put a tank with fly just about anywhere you want.
Having played about 9 games with Las-Pulsar Agamatus bikes so far (all in the past week), against everything from Iron Hands to GSC...they are the bomb. The amount of damage they put out is impressive and fills the gap left by the caladius nerf. I really wish we could mix and match in squads with the hurricane bolter dudes, but with the rise of power armor I'm going with battle cannon equivalents for the foreseeable future.
greyknight12 wrote: As long as you don't play with the SoCal open terrain rules, you can put a tank with fly just about anywhere you want.
Having played about 9 games with Las-Pulsar Agamatus bikes so far (all in the past week), against everything from Iron Hands to GSC...they are the bomb. The amount of damage they put out is impressive and fills the gap left by the caladius nerf. I really wish we could mix and match in squads with the hurricane bolter dudes, but with the rise of power armor I'm going with battle cannon equivalents for the foreseeable future.
greyknight12 wrote: As long as you don't play with the SoCal open terrain rules, you can put a tank with fly just about anywhere you want.
Having played about 9 games with Las-Pulsar Agamatus bikes so far (all in the past week), against everything from Iron Hands to GSC...they are the bomb. The amount of damage they put out is impressive and fills the gap left by the caladius nerf. I really wish we could mix and match in squads with the hurricane bolter dudes, but with the rise of power armor I'm going with battle cannon equivalents for the foreseeable future.
Face any Knights?
Yep, played ad mech list and a 3xCaladius/tank commander list that both had a Krast crusader. My last game was against pure Chaos knights.
Lost to the the leaf blower list cause I went second but beat the others. My list was basically 2 3-man Agamatus squads (las pulsars) and 3x Caladius (accelerator cannon). For the chaos knights game, I actually deepstruck the bike squads when I really shouldn’t have, gave up a lot of points initially but tabled him turn six. I rolled insanely well that whole game, but the math for that shooting is:
3x Caladius w/Trajan = 9.1+3.4 for 12.5 wounds against a 4++
6 bikes (that moved) w/Trajan = 10.9 avg wounds against a 4++
So combined, it’s basically enough to kill a Knight, the numbers go up if the bikes don’t move or the Knight is at a 5++. Ultimately I’m not trying to kill it all the way, just make it shoot worse and move slower until the bikes or Trajan can charge in and finish it. The vexilla magnifica bubble makes knights effectively one damage tier lower than they actually are and I can outrun them.
I'll defer to you of course as you have the experience with them, but man they seem so expensive for just a better gun. 25 ppm on top of normal Jetbikes is punishing when trying to fit them in, while also giving up your Hurricane bolter dakka.
I suppose they make an 'all jetbike' list doable in Highlander format heheh .
Ey guys, after a pretty expensive FW purchase I'm planning to do this list. What are your toughts on it? I know that TANKS are better than anything but is not like I love them too much.
The strategy behind the list is having the Vexillus and Valoris with the Saggitarum in the back, move with the jetbikes and deepstrike everything else.
I have found Saggitarum to perform very well after the buffs out of beta rules, and being able to fire both fire modes now. They are very cool as a moving mini-gunline. I have them misericordias so each one in combat has A4 5F -2AP 1D that isn't bad for a shooting unit. But I don't found that many people that thake them over spear guardians even for Batallion tax. Are they that much worse? I mean, in meele they are much inferior yeah, but their shooting is soo superior and they cost basically the same (2ppm more with Misericordia)
Also the Allaron Custodians... I really try to use them but I haven't found them to perform really well. I suppose the obvious response is "Change them for Vertus Praetors", but I'm asking if anybody has found a proper use for them.
Galas wrote: Ey guys, after a pretty expensive FW purchase I'm planning to do this list. What are your toughts on it? I know that TANKS are better than anything but is not like I love them too much.
The strategy behind the list is having the Vexillus and Valoris with the Saggitarum in the back, move with the jetbikes and deepstrike everything else.
I have found Saggitarum to perform very well after the buffs out of beta rules, and being able to fire both fire modes now. They are very cool as a moving mini-gunline. I have them misericordias so each one in combat has A4 5F -2AP 1D that isn't bad for a shooting unit. But I don't found that many people that thake them over spear guardians even for Batallion tax. Are they that much worse? I mean, in meele they are much inferior yeah, but their shooting is soo superior and they cost basically the same (2ppm more with Misericordia)
Also the Allaron Custodians... I really try to use them but I haven't found them to perform really well. I suppose the obvious response is "Change them for Vertus Praetors", but I'm asking if anybody has found a proper use for them.
No good use for Allarus in my opinion. Change them to Aquilons, which do what they do better. I put mine with a Culexus so I can pop Soul Horror if anyone charges them (make all enemies fight last). I use them more for area denial on a quadrant of the board than charging and attacking.
Saggitarum are the best troops, no question in my view. I think any lack of presence is due to the fact that people don't have a ton of them yet (FW was sold out for a bit I think).
I'll defer to you of course as you have the experience with them, but man they seem so expensive for just a better gun. 25 ppm on top of normal Jetbikes is punishing when trying to fit them in, while also giving up your Hurricane bolter dakka.
I suppose they make an 'all jetbike' list doable in Highlander format heheh .
They are expensive, my list is an outrider and spearhead and they still take a chunk of my points. The thing is that they are significantly better against vehicles and primaris marines than their hurricane bolter friends, and based on other list choices I simply didn’t have the points for Aquilons or something else, and getting those into combat has always been a struggle anyway.
Basically, I’m deliberately skewing my list towards the marine matchup and hoping that against a true horde my toughness and Caladius tanks will carry me.
_SeeD_ wrote: Does anyone have any experience with the Coronus Grav Carrier? I think because it's 14" move and fly, it can get its load wherever.
I’m curious about this as well. Seems like it could be good (and looks great).
Big though! I find fitting a land raider between terrain can be tricky... and this thing looks even bigger!
I've decided against it. You're essentially paying close to a 200 point premium just to truck 6 infantry around. If you're concerned with getting units into the fray, there are better options, namely Bikes, Tanks, Deep Strike, and the 3cp teleport homer from an advancing Vexilla.
greyknight12 wrote: The Grav carrier really just needs a better gun (like the Caladius version of the storm/arachnus cannon).
I think a points reduction is in order. Also, if I put a Vexilla on the Coronus and deploy him wherever, can I Vexilla Teleport Homer that turn, or is the model considered "other than one that was
set up in this turn"?
Has anyone used Agamatus Custodians? They seem pretty pricey but the firepower of the Twin Las-Pulsars is very tempting for an army that needs anti-armor options. Been converting 3 extra Dawneagle bikes I had by adding leftover Lascannon bits to them and I'm trying to justify myself in using them on the table.
Mr. Funktastic wrote: Has anyone used Agamatus Custodians? They seem pretty pricey but the firepower of the Twin Las-Pulsars is very tempting for an army that needs anti-armor options. Been converting 3 extra Dawneagle bikes I had by adding leftover Lascannon bits to them and I'm trying to justify myself in using them on the table.
See my previous post, but I’ll elaborate.
They are extremely solid against vehicles, keeping them close to Trajan or a Bike captain if you’re moving fast helps mitigate their -1 from heavy weapons. They are 75 pts/squad more expensive than hurricane bolters, but do about twice the damage to primaris marines. The main reason I take them is to kill vehicles and primaris marines from range, and being Custodes bikes with their damage range you have a lot of options and they can do something every turn. The lower number of shots is somewhat balanced by the fact that you wound a lot of chaff on 2’s denying armor saves, but I have Caladius tanks for that (a squad of vertus praetors would do the job too). They do most of their damage in shooting, but as with all Custodes units moving them so they can also melee gets you the most out of the unit. They are pretty survivable, one big advantage they have over the caladius is that 4++ and/or 1+ save in cover or from Prepared Positions.
Killing armor and T7+ has always kind of been a problem for Custodes, and with the meta shifting to Space Marines I think they are a very solid choice for tailoring your list to that matchup. I don’t think any other weapon options are worth it either on them, you can get that kind of firepower elsewhere and they are too expensive for what they do.
Mr. Funktastic wrote: Has anyone used Agamatus Custodians? They seem pretty pricey but the firepower of the Twin Las-Pulsars is very tempting for an army that needs anti-armor options. Been converting 3 extra Dawneagle bikes I had by adding leftover Lascannon bits to them and I'm trying to justify myself in using them on the table.
See my previous post, but I’ll elaborate.
They are extremely solid against vehicles, keeping them close to Trajan or a Bike captain if you’re moving fast helps mitigate their -1 from heavy weapons. They are 75 pts/squad more expensive than hurricane bolters, but do about twice the damage to primaris marines. The main reason I take them is to kill vehicles and primaris marines from range, and being Custodes bikes with their damage range you have a lot of options and they can do something every turn. The lower number of shots is somewhat balanced by the fact that you wound a lot of chaff on 2’s denying armor saves, but I have Caladius tanks for that (a squad of vertus praetors would do the job too). They do most of their damage in shooting, but as with all Custodes units moving them so they can also melee gets you the most out of the unit. They are pretty survivable, one big advantage they have over the caladius is that 4++ and/or 1+ save in cover or from Prepared Positions.
Killing armor and T7+ has always kind of been a problem for Custodes, and with the meta shifting to Space Marines I think they are a very solid choice for tailoring your list to that matchup. I don’t think any other weapon options are worth it either on them, you can get that kind of firepower elsewhere and they are too expensive for what they do.
Thanks for that detailed assessment, that's just what I was looking for! They do seem like they can definitely contribute either in melee or in shooting against a wide variety of targets and certainly against Primaris which seem prevalent in the meta these days. Paying the premium for those twin las-pulsars hurts but it sounds like they do a solid job in making back their points. I only have 3 so I'm hoping 12 S8 AP-2 D3 damage shots are enough to put in work, I'll probably throw in some other threats to try and take the heat off of them and try and have them survive as long as I can.
@Mr Funktastic I would definitely run a couple games with them, you’ll have a much better feel for the unit after a couple practice games (I’ve found that Custodes on the table are often better than Custodes on paper for some reason). You’ll get an idea of how they fit into your list and what they can replace.
Another note I’d add is that they tended to be the main targets for my opponents, and drew fire off my other stuff...namely the 3 caladius tanks. A lot of good “anti-vehicle” shots were effectively wasted on the 2 squads of bikes. So I’d mentally be prepared for your bikes to die, and your other “distraction unit” to actually do a decent bit of the heavy lifting. A lot depends on what else you’re running, so practicing a couple friendly games with them will be good. I’ve proxied or used almost everything in the data sheets at this point and it’s definitely been a helpful practice.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So with the new OM rules, does anyone think adding an inquisitor to their Custodes group would help out? Greyfax?
I see two good options: Greyfax, for her +1 denies and "no escape" warlord trait. She's more durable than any other inquisitor with that trait you can make.
The other option is an Ordo Xenos inquisitor with the "esoteric lore" warlord trait for a bit of CP farming and potentially the mental interrogation power (all inquisitors should take that one anyway). Basically use him/her as a CP farm. It's not a lot but when you only start with 5 CP...it can be a big deal.
The biggest issue I see with them is their lack of durability in a sniper-heavy meta, unlike our other support characters these guys will die. But yeah, I see a potential use for No Escape and the CP farming. The crazy idea (if you're willing to break pure custodes) is to take a vanguard of 6 individual acolytes to sit on objectives while your more durable units push up or use them as a really cheap / expendable screen; combined with psychic veil you might be able to deny a fair amount of deepstrike-charges.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So with the new OM rules, does anyone think adding an inquisitor to their Custodes group would help out? Greyfax?
I see two good options: Greyfax, for her +1 denies and "no escape" warlord trait. She's more durable than any other inquisitor with that trait you can make.
The other option is an Ordo Xenos inquisitor with the "esoteric lore" warlord trait for a bit of CP farming and potentially the mental interrogation power (all inquisitors should take that one anyway). Basically use him/her as a CP farm. It's not a lot but when you only start with 5 CP...it can be a big deal.
The biggest issue I see with them is their lack of durability in a sniper-heavy meta, unlike our other support characters these guys will die. But yeah, I see a potential use for No Escape and the CP farming. The crazy idea (if you're willing to break pure custodes) is to take a vanguard of 6 individual acolytes to sit on objectives while your more durable units push up or use them as a really cheap / expendable screen; combined with psychic veil you might be able to deny a fair amount of deepstrike-charges.
Rule Of Three says only three units of Acolytes.
But the rest of that seems pretty accurate and good.
Given the cost of my Holy C3POs I don't expect I can do more than 150pts of SoS. The cost of an inquisitor, and a retinue seems excessive just to garner CPs.
If you’re going to farm CP just take the 55 pt inquisitor and hide it (until you need the psychic powers). Also forgot to mention the Terrify power for denying overwatch...there’s not as much utility in it but could be situationally useful.
Thanks JNA, I always seem to forget about the rule of 3 on here (even while I defend it in other places)!
iGuy91 wrote: So wait, do the new inquisitor rules allow inquisitors to be HQs for SoS?
Yes, but no. The Inquisitor doesnt use a slot, so you'd still need a Primaris Psyker if you want to run a real Vanguard of SoS.
Ah...shucks.
Been running my Sag. Guard some more. Been pretty happy with them thusfar. Last time running 1 squad of the regular guard to move upfield, and 2 squads of Sag. Guard was pretty effective. Between the shooting, then melee, they deal quite a lot of damage to MEQ units.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Anyone wanna bet the next change the Custodes get is to make the Guardian's Spears Assault 3?
What makes you think Custodes are getting any changes at all? We were defined by the grav tank, and that got changed but outside of a few appearances here and there we're kind of under the radar now.
Not to be insensitive, but the only influential person who really cared about Custodes as a faction is dead.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Anyone wanna bet the next change the Custodes get is to make the Guardian's Spears Assault 3?
What makes you think Custodes are getting any changes at all? We were defined by the grav tank, and that got changed but outside of a few appearances here and there we're kind of under the radar now.
Not to be insensitive, but the only influential person who really cared about Custodes as a faction is dead.
With the recent buff's to marines, custodes need some love.
We are severely outgunned by most armies now and most custodes lists ive watched and played myself either get tabled or have 2 models left on the board by turn 6.
We cant expect any major points changes (even though we need almost a 4 points per model reduction for everything), but i'd like super-traits for the different Shield Hosts of custodes added at least.
This is in addition to our normal +1 invun and works on our vehicles too.
Good options:
Solar Guard (the crusaders) - +1 attack on the charge and when charged. Colsolidation/Heroic intervention range increased by 2".
Shadow Keepers (the watchmen) - Ignore cover.
Aquillon Shield (the outnumbered) - cannot be wounded on natural 1's and 2's.
Emmisaries (the heralds) -Add +1 to the moral check roll and Any casualties from moral by enemy units are doubled.
@Fezzik Geoff Robinson was a huge Custodes fan and his success with them is why the Caladius grav tank became famous. He passed away not too long ago. Really good guy too.
Regarding buffs, I think the main thing we need is a better way to successfully make charges. We have a lot of melee ability with exactly one model that can re-roll charges, and only with a relic. We need bonuses, advance+charge, more re-rolls, or something. Getting into melee is hard.
Some of our strategems can come probably down in cost or be innate abilities of Custodes units.
I think that making our tanks stronger is reasonable, giving them +1 T, 2+ save or a 4++ would keep our firepower from getting shot off the table.
It’s hard to buff the Custodes defensive stat line without making them ridiculous, going to 3++ or a 5+++ would probably be too much. A universal 6+++ wouldn’t be bad.
I agree I would like to get better charge chance on a personal level, but boy I gotta say custodes are scary if they make the charge more often than 50% of the time.
I'd honestly not mind just having a 7" move on all my basic infantry and reroll 1's on the charge dice as a free upgrade though. Its a very minor tweak that would be very welcome and not really warrant a points increase.
Eihnlazer wrote: I agree I would like to get better charge chance on a personal level, but boy I gotta say custodes are scary if they make the charge more often than 50% of the time.
I'd honestly not mind just having a 7" move on all my basic infantry and reroll 1's on the charge dice as a free upgrade though. Its a very minor tweak that would be very welcome and not really warrant a points increase.
Custodes are no more scary than smash captains, lord discordants, and knights on the charge (for their points), and all those have a way to make their charge more reliable. In fact, the best comparison is probably Assault centurions, and those have extremely reliable charge mechanics with White Scars and Raven Guard plus a fight twice strategem from the vanilla codex. Dedicated assault units across the game usually have some sort of speed boost mechanic, at least the good ones do.
Our problem is damage. Marine access to fixed three damage melee weapons makes marine characters vastly better at taking down tanks/lords of war than Custodes captains.
I came up with a few ideas spitballing. But this might just belong in the proposed rules section.
Add <Talons of the Emperor> Keyword to Assassins and SoS.
Solar Watch - The Crusading Host - Add +1 to the number of attacks models from this shield host have when charging or being charged. Add +2 inches to consolidation and heroic intervention ranges.
The Shadowkeepers - The Unseen Blades - Units of this Shield Host ignore cover with ranged weapons, and count as being in cover if outside 12" inches.
Aquilon Shield - The Shield of Terra - Units of this Shield Host may advance, and treat any weapons they wield as assault weapons, and may fall back from combat, and shoot at a -1 to hit. Units of this Shield Host add +1 to hit on overwatch rolls.
The Dread Host - Rapid Response - Units of this Shield Host may advance and still charge, and always strike first, unless an enemy unit has a similar ability, in which case, alternate units.
The Gilded Fist - Indomitable Host - Terminator Units of this Shield Host may roll 3d6 to charge on a turn they deep strike, and have a 5+ Feel No Pain save.
To add a bit of uniqueness back to the custodes I'd like to see first turn deepstrike return for custodes, FGLTC should be 1cp per unit to take advantage of this, possible strat/relic that gives a 3d6 charge, 5+++ Vs mortal, 6+++ across the board.
1st turn DS wouldn't really address our issues. We would still fail charges and do ineffective damage to big targets. Also, it would reinforce the "first turn victory" style of play that is rapidly becoming the norm it seems, which I personally dislike.
To each their own, but I would rather see us get some form of rule where we can just straight up ignore defenses. Like, our axes invalidate invuln saves, or our attacks against infantry always do max damage. .
With the recent rules update I’m guessing FW Custodes at least are going to stay the same. And we’re so far off anyone’s radar that I doubt we’ll be seeing any changes at all.
How would you guys use the venatari. My awsome best friend got me a squad for my birthday and I've been playing them in every game, but they did not perform very well for me. I always played a squad with two pistols and one lance, because that is how I built them.
I know most people don't play them, but I'd like to make them work somehow
Tiberias wrote: How would you guys use the venatari. My awsome best friend got me a squad for my birthday and I've been playing them in every game, but they did not perform very well for me. I always played a squad with two pistols and one lance, because that is how I built them.
I know most people don't play them, but I'd like to make them work somehow
I built all mine with pistols, but I don’t think that will make too much of a difference. I deepstrike mine to grab and objective or kill backfield units. If you can catch a character they are solid, but are good at just putting another tough threat in a different place for your opponent to deal with.
Main things I see are storm shields (non-characters) down to 5 points, Axes down to 11 and all terminators down 5. A basic warden w/axe now costs 54 pts, a shield guard costs 52. The+1 attack banner is now 20 pts, and misericordia are now 3 pts.
both axes and spear got down in points. Do you guys think the overall changes in chapter approved will help footstodes? Or are we stuck playing tanks to be somewhat competitive?
It’s going to depend a lot on what happens to the other armies. In a vacuum the changes certainly help, but the reason people take tanks is because they are super efficient at killing things and simply hiding in cover doesn’t win you the game. With enough terrain Footsotdes do fine, with the attack bonus being cheaper I could see a couple big blocks of Wardens or Aquilons dropping in to menace big chunks of the board.
Do fottstodes really do fine even with terrain? May it's just me but I find it really hard to get our regular guys across the board and even if they do make it to the enemy they do too little in my opinion. For a super elite melee focused army, we have very few attacks.
The only infantry thing that hits good in melee are the wardens and the aquilons in my opinion and those don't make it into melee more often than not because they fail their deepstrike charge.
I only play frendly games with my buddies, but all of my last games were very frustrating. I don't mind losing if the game was fun and had interesting moments. There is nothing fun getting shot off the table by a tau player in turn 2....might as well not have played at all.
The points changes helped my current list out a good bit.
I gained 105 points or so and daggers on all my spear boys.
I can upgrade my termy captain to a bike captain and take another squad of guard, along with a few more blings, or I can just add a pallas grav assault and take a plasma pistol on one of my company commanders.
All Custodes points changes from CA19. If it is not listed it didn't change.
Trajann -5 to 180
Allarus: -5 to 60
Shield captain: -10 to 90
Shield captain in ATA: -10 to 100
Land Raider: -12 to 205
Vexilus praetor in ATA: -10 to 100
Castellan axe: -3 to 11
Guardian spear: -3 to 9
Assault cannon -2 to 23
Multi-melta: -4 to 22
Dread combat weapon -20 to 20
misercordia: -1 to 3
Storm shield(other models): -5 to 5
Vexilla Imperius: -30 to 20
Aquilon -5 to 60
Caladius: -20 to 100
Telemon caestus (single/pair): +10 to 30/40
Adrasite spear: +1 to 13
Arachnus storm cannon: -5 to 40
Iliastus accelerator culverin -10 to 25
Infernus incinerator: +1 to 16
Lastrum bolt cannon +2 to 12
Twin iliastus accelerator cannon + 10 to 90
Twin las-pulser: + 5 to 40
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So now Aquillons cost as much as allarus? Who thought that was a good idea? SMH.
no they don't
Allarus with axe are 71 now
Aqilon qith bolter and fist are 78 now
Telemon Fists now back to higher costs than the storm cannon....
Landraider is now slightly less worthless. Venerable melta dreads look....better?
Venerable melta dreads looks better yes but still not as good as the achillus
Since they did not nerf the Ares is will get one and replace the Castellan in my list.
Using the Strat? But that strat works on any Dread, so I don't think it makes the Ven Contemptor any more or less appealing than the FW options.
IMO, the only real reason to take the Ven Dread is because you both A) want a Dread in your list and B) want to avoid FW models
If A, but not B, I agreed the Achillus is better, IMO
So what is the cost "presumed" for a Melta Contemptor? Because they do have some pretty gnarly toughness and they could be a nice "suddenly in your backfield" distraction, for I'm guessing half the cost of the Telemon?
I am currently working on an analysis of all the custodes units. This is the first part a simple tier list for all units. I was inspired by the first post in the Necron tactics thread. I would really like to hear you feedback and what you think. I am thinking of adding another Tier named S to better differentiate between A and B and C. Maybe we could pin this in the first post in this thread when the ranking is finalised. I based the ranking on my mathhammer analysis of the units and on the last 24 Custodes lists that went to top 4 in an ITC tournament that i could find on http://40kstats.com or http://bloodofkittens.com/
A = auto include
B = really good
C = can be situationally decent
D = generally not worth it
F = straight up bad
A
Vexillus Praetor with Magnifica: The -1 to hit bubble is really good in this shooty meta.
Caladius with Twin Illiastus Accelerator Cannon: really good shooting. pretty good mobility.
Captain-General Trajann Valoris: Pretty tough with his 3++ and his reroll aura really boosts the damage output of nearby units. his ability regain up to 3 CP is also great in a low CP army like Custodes.
Shield Captain on Dawneagle jetbike: Great mobility. Can be super durable with a 3++ relic and 5+ FNP
B
Pallas Grav-Attack: Great for keeping deepstriking units away from you main army.
Vertus Praetors: Lots of dakka hit really hard in melee vs. non T7/8 targets.
Ares Gunship: Our best ranged anti tank. Great mobility and survivability.
Orion Assault Dropship: Our best transport a bit too expansive.
Caladius with Twin Heavy Blaze Cannon: Great against Tanks and T8 not so great vs elite infantry.
C
Telemon Heavy Dreadnought: Really tough even for Custodes and decent shooting
Aquilon Custodian: Very good melee but a little expansive
Sagittarum Custodians: Like guardians but better shooting and less good melee
Shield Captain in Allarus Terminator Armor: Biker captains are just so much better
Custodian Guard Squad: Decent option to fill troop slots in pure Custodes lists
Custodian Guard Squad with Adrasite and Pyrithite Spears: Adrasite version is decent vs. Elite infantry
Allarus Custodians: Not as good as Aquilon but a little cheaper
Venatari Custodians: basically guardians with 12" movement
Agamatus Custodians: Not great except for the Puls laser version which can be decnet.
Contemptor-Achillus Dreadnought: Really good melee but lacks mobility
Contemptor-Galatus Dreadnought: Really tough and good vs. Non T8 but lacks mobility
Custodian Wardens: Better melee than guardians but not a troops choice
Shield-Captain: Other options in the HQ slot are much better
D
Coronus Grav-Carrier: Just a much better Land Raider except for shooting at T8 stuff. but for 77 points less. Shoots only a little better than a Pallas.
Venerable Contemptor Dreadnought: The Achillus but worse shooting and melee.
Vexillus Praetor in Allarus Terminator Armor: Can't take a good melee weapon.
F
Venerable Land Raider: Can't fallback and shoot. waaay to expansive for what it does.
Edit:
changes: Caladius with Twin Heavy Blaze Cannon moved up to B.
Shield-Captain moved up to C
I like it. I appreciate that you're using an evidence based approach to ranking the units, too many of these lists are super heavily skewed by the posters own experience of his local meta and plain old opinion.
How recent is the data? Are these tournament results all since the Forgeworld FAQ hit? (I notice the Caladius is still A tier) I also imagine the recent CA might shift general meta things around a bit so might need to review things soon.
Im also interested to hear if anyone has first hand experience of the Ares. It doesn't seem that exciting to me with just D3 shots on the main gun, but many people seem to rate it.
Disagree on the Agamatus. Rate it wherever you want (I’d give it a “B”, personally) but anything other the las pulsars, not the adrasite is garbage.
No one has run really an ares, and the Orion lists got schwacked once marines showed up, so not sure how current your data set is. Most lists that place decently (Carlos Kaiser @SoCal being one) use lots of plain guard and some Aquilons.
Not for nothing, but the Blaze cannon Callidus seems to outperform the Accelerator cannon version in most of the Meta.
The Orion is a giant hunk of useless crap - should be an F.
Ares is not a B. Literally one person has used it successfully in a list. Ares suffers the same problem as the Orion. Way too costly, for the ability to delete maybe one or two vehicles per turn, and will likely get deleted by turn 2.
Finally, Aquillons are the best unit in the entire faction. Even better than the Dawneagle Captain. Nothing comes close to the damage these guys can do, for the cost.
No, Fists and blasters. You will get essentially the same amount of hits, at double the range, and less cost. The S5 vs S6 is negligible at the targets you should be shooting in the first place.
Spartacus wrote: I like it. I appreciate that you're using an evidence based approach to ranking the units, too many of these lists are super heavily skewed by the posters own experience of his local meta and plain old opinion.
Thank you
How recent is the data? Are these tournament results all since the Forgeworld FAQ hit? (I notice the Caladius is still A tier) I also imagine the recent CA might shift general meta things around a bit so might need to review things soon.
oldest data is from april 2019. And CA19 is already taken in to account.
Im also interested to hear if anyone has first hand experience of the Ares. It doesn't seem that exciting to me with just D3 shots on the main gun, but many people seem to rate it.
I would also be very interested. If yout opponent does not have an inv. it disdroys 2 tanks per turn. Or puts 10 wounds per turn on a knight with a 4++.
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greyknight12 wrote: Disagree on the Agamatus. Rate it wherever you want (I’d give it a “B”, personally) but anything other the las pulsars, not the adrasite is garbage.
No one has run really an ares, and the Orion lists got schwacked once marines showed up, so not sure how current your data set is. Most lists that place decently (Carlos Kaiser @SoCal being one) use lots of plain guard and some Aquilons.
I agree on the las pulser.
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Not for nothing, but the Blaze cannon Callidus seems to outperform the Accelerator cannon version in most of the Meta.
I disagree the Meta is SM Primaris and the Accelerator cannon is really at killing them.
The Orion is a giant hunk of useless crap - should be an F.
Why do you think so?
Ares is not a B. Literally one person has used it successfully in a list. Ares suffers the same problem as the Orion. Way too costly, for the ability to delete maybe one or two vehicles per turn, and will likely get deleted by turn 2.
I strongly disagree. If yout opponent does not have an inv. it disdroys 2 tanks per turn. Or puts 10 wounds per turn on a knight with a 4++. It shoots better against T8 and is tougher than 2 caladius with blaze cannon it's mobility is also much better.
Finally, Aquillons are the best unit in the entire faction. Even better than the Dawneagle Captain. Nothing comes close to the damage these guys can do, for the cost.
I agree to some extend they are great but not the best. Yes if they get into melee with a worthy unit they will destory it quick. but they lack mobility to be great.
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Dantioch wrote: I assume you would be using the aquilons with fists and flamers?
yes ore fists and adrathic destructor to kill primaris infantry.
Are Twin Adrathic Destructors ever worth it on Aquilons? Sure they look badass but at 20 pts, they're really expensive and I feel like you'd rather have a Firepike or Lastrum Storm Bolter 99% of the time.
It really depends. If you know ahead of time you are going up against a list with a lot of multi-wound infantry (Anything with Primaris or Chaos boys) then they make a lot of sense. They are great Elite Poppers.
But that would be essentially list tailoring your opponent, and that is while not outright illegal, heavily frowned upon in a casual sense. On the other hand if you are going competitive, let rip.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: It really depends. If you know ahead of time you are going up against a list with a lot of multi-wound infantry (Anything with Primaris or Chaos boys) then they make a lot of sense. They are great Elite Poppers.
But that would be essentially list tailoring your opponent, and that is while not outright illegal, heavily frowned upon in a casual sense. On the other hand if you are going competitive, let rip.
I'd think the bolters are a fine TAC sort of choice, they're also cheap. The other two options seem more niche to me. Would you agree?
I tend to take the flamers only if I'm worried about being counter charged by something like Genestealers or I want some extra wounds on Eldar flyers. Otherwise the Lastrums work fine.
The big problem for the big boys is the lack of delivery.
greyknight12 wrote: Disagree on the Agamatus. Rate it wherever you want (I’d give it a “B”, personally) but anything other the las pulsars, not the adrasite is garbage.
Do you still feel like Las Pulsar Agamatus are still worth running even though they apparently went up 5 pts in CA? 360 pts for 3 is a pretty tough pill to swallow.
The Agamatus were overcosted before the nerf, so I don't consider them. Our main source of anti-tank is still axes/fists, Melta spears, and Telemon/Calladi. We don't have a lot of options, but the options we do have are pretty baller.
greyknight12 wrote: Disagree on the Agamatus. Rate it wherever you want (I’d give it a “B”, personally) but anything other the las pulsars, not the adrasite is garbage.
Do you still feel like Las Pulsar Agamatus are still worth running even though they apparently went up 5 pts in CA? 360 pts for 3 is a pretty tough pill to swallow.
Yes I do. It’s the only S8 shooting at volume we can do. They went up by 5 pts but the caladius went down by 10, so my current list is the same. IF you’re building for ranged firepower, they do good work. The other option is to go for heavy blaze cannons on the caladius or take an ares (I’ll review once my model gets here and I get some games in. Lots of little shots is usually more versatile than a few big shots but we’ll see.
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: The Agamatus were overcosted before the nerf, so I don't consider them. Our main source of anti-tank is still axes/fists, Melta spears, and Telemon/Calladi. We don't have a lot of options, but the options we do have are pretty baller.
Agree that they’re a bit overcosted, but if your opponent screens you won’t have a way to get any of the melee/melta tech within range before you get shot off the table by a gunline. My meta has enough leaf blower-style lists that I’m not willing to simply write off any gunline as a loss. Infantry and playing the durability game can totally work if you have the right terrain, and the Custodes lists that are doing well (that I have seen) do just that. Yes we punch tanks the best, but I played GK too long to be able to count on melee as my sole way of killing things that shoot back.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Pallas are generally better for the anti-tank thing, if you are going fast attack.
If you only have 100 pts to spend, yes. They are great. But for 120 pts, you get 4 S8 shots vs 2 S7. Against T8 that is (assuming all hit) 2 wounds/4 dmg average for the las pulsars and 1.1 wounds/3.3 dmg for the Pallas. The Pallas looks better as well when you factor in the reduced accuracy of the bikes on the move. Against T7 it’s 5.33 for the bikes, 4.5 for the Pallas. Those numbers don’t factor in a Trajan re-roll to wound. So while it looks like the numbers are close, the bikes do have more potential damage against some targets, like primaris marines. The bikes also have a 2+/4++ vs the 3+/5++ on the Pallas and come with 4 melee attacks apiece.
Not saying the Pallas is bad at all, far from it. But I do think the bikes for the points are going to do a little more damage.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: No, Fists and blasters. You will get essentially the same amount of hits, at double the range, and less cost. The S5 vs S6 is negligible at the targets you should be shooting in the first place.
The flamers are a hard counter for melee hordes like orks and GSC, but GSC got cycled out of the competitive meta hard by marines.
They might still do some damage to the centurion super blob? I haven't run those numbers.
The big thing about the flamers is they have the "I can DS and flame on" factor. Only problem is, your Aquillons aren't present for the first turn, which usually has most mobs moving up the board. All the big stuff (the things Aquillons SHOULD be targeting) is in the back, where you want to DS. There are very few players that put their hordes in the back of the map in my experience.
That all being said, if you are waiting to DS on turn 2, on the middle of the board, just to toast the mobs in the center, and totally avoiding the Heavy support in the back that is going to frag your dudes, that's a play style I guess, just not mine.
I prefer to send my terminators at the big stuff, not the mobs. Also, I don't want them to be dakkanators, I want them in melee, S10 punching the crap out of Elites and Tanks. Not punching T3/4 mobs that my bikes, sag, and dreadnaughts can take care of.
One thing I will say about Deep striking your dudes in flamer range vs marines, is you will get auspex scanned. Be wary of that, you'll take a ton of damage from souped-up Dev Centurions.
Right, great point. Most armies have some form of auspex scan.
I generally don't do DS nowadays unless my opponent is hopeless at setup, and leaves tanks unguarded. I generally save my DS for last on setup, so I can see where he/she is going.
I generally don't do DS nowadays unless my opponent is hopeless at setup, and leaves tanks unguarded. I generally save my DS for last on setup, so I can see where he/she is going.
So, the SM is good, the Tau one is best, the Eldar have one but I forget how good it is, Necrons....dont? Orks do with a proper setup, and same with Guard. Sisters have one, and so does GSC. Do Nids?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, the SM is good, the Tau one is best, the Eldar have one but I forget how good it is, Necrons....dont? Orks do with a proper setup, and same with Guard. Sisters have one, and so does GSC. Do Nids?
The elder one is alright. But it specifically has to be good against a toughness 5 4 wound 2+/4+ model. That is, well, largely marines. And even then only so good.
The Tau intercept is bloody terrible. It costs points, can only be fitted to Battlesuits and consumes an equipment slot that is needed for other things.
Then I was lied to in my last game. I was told they had some "scan" or another, worked like Auspex scan. Entire squad of firewarriors at 4+ shot my new Allarus off the table.
Comparing Aquilons to Sagittarum, for about the same points you can pick up 5 Sag for the cost of 3 aquilons and get more of the same quality firepower plus 5 of the S5 AP3 3D shots. More total wounds, more total attacks. Quality of close combat is obviously worse, but how often do aquilons actually make combat anyway? Why not 5-10 sag deep striking in?
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