So, for the record, I know they are overcosted and rather mediocre for their intended purpose, and when compared to their FW counterparts, BUT...

In my next game I am going to be playing 2 squads of 5 Allarus Custodians. I am going to be using them as big game hunters and line breakers for my bikes to be able to get in the charge scott free.

I want to see if I can get them to earn their points back and take down something big. If I pop their stratagems, they should be able to do good work, but it depends on how daft my opponent is.

Has anyone had good luck with them?

3 seems to already do what you want them to (all their lovely Strats), and past that point I suspect they drop in viability, but I've never taken more than 3, so my opinion is pretty circumstantial.

Maybe 2x3, but 2x5 seems a bit overindulgent, if you know what I mean

So, veird advice needed but bear with me.
My local scene is really small and have a fluffy tournament coming up, its 1550pts that has few limitations.
Max 2 detachments, no souping (expect for 1 knight).
Eternal war missions with Maelstorm of war secondaries.

Would it be viable to make something with custodes+ a knight (including forgeworld ones), most people play Eldar so no idea what direction to go.

What about a Warden, 2 helverins, a bike captain, 2 squads of vertus and a pallas? That comes in at 1550pt on the nose with 7cp.

TBH, i wouldn't soup a knight into a custodes list. I'd take a telemon either loaded out for all range with twin arachnus storm cannons, or melee with twin fists.

Hmm, i do have a telemon but what should i go with, i have a lot of custodes models but very little game experience with this army.

Souping a knight with Custodes is the quintessential TFG move....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, for the record, I know they are overcosted and rather mediocre for their intended purpose, and when compared to their FW counterparts, BUT...

In my next game I am going to be playing 2 squads of 5 Allarus Custodians. I am going to be using them as big game hunters and line breakers for my bikes to be able to get in the charge scott free.

I want to see if I can get them to earn their points back and take down something big. If I pop their stratagems, they should be able to do good work, but it depends on how daft my opponent is.

Has anyone had good luck with them?

So, with avenge the fallen, their attacks get crazy, and the strat mathematically works out best if a 5 man squad loses 2.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Araablane wrote:
Hmm, i do have a telemon but what should i go with, i have a lot of custodes models but very little game experience with this army.

For all intents and purposes, the Telemon is the best unit in our whole faction. It's top 10 in the whole game for Heavy support units. You basically take a couple, and build your lists around those.

Other other standout units are also FW, but to varying degrees of use. Callidus Tanks, Aquillon Terminators, and Pallas Grav-Tanks.

If you want to be "That guy" you load up several outrider detachments with a SC on Bike, and 3 squads of bikes. You have about 15 bikes, 3 bike captains, and no one wnats to play you.

Right, cause all bike lists have just been dominating the tournament scene lately...

Broadsides
Ravagers
Talos
Dark Reapers
Fire Prisms
Dakkafex
sniper drones
Doomsday ark
Basilisk
heavy weapon squad
Manticore
Leviathan SCA dread
Contemptor mortis
Oblits
Rapier Quads
Hellblasters
Morkanaut
Traktor Kannon
Kastellan dakkabots

... There's some pretty stiff competition for best heavy unit in the game. I don't think the Telemon makes the cut, frankly. It's not even the best heavy in the faction.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Souping a knight with Custodes is the quintessential TFG move....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, for the record, I know they are overcosted and rather mediocre for their intended purpose, and when compared to their FW counterparts, BUT...

In my next game I am going to be playing 2 squads of 5 Allarus Custodians. I am going to be using them as big game hunters and line breakers for my bikes to be able to get in the charge scott free.

I want to see if I can get them to earn their points back and take down something big. If I pop their stratagems, they should be able to do good work, but it depends on how daft my opponent is.

Has anyone had good luck with them?

So, with avenge the fallen, their attacks get crazy, and the strat mathematically works out best if a 5 man squad loses 2.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Araablane wrote:
Hmm, i do have a telemon but what should i go with, i have a lot of custodes models but very little game experience with this army.

For all intents and purposes, the Telemon is the best unit in our whole faction. It's top 10 in the whole game for Heavy support units. You basically take a couple, and build your lists around those.

Other other standout units are also FW, but to varying degrees of use. Callidus Tanks, Aquillon Terminators, and Pallas Grav-Tanks.

If you want to be "That guy" you load up several outrider detachments with a SC on Bike, and 3 squads of bikes. You have about 15 bikes, 3 bike captains, and no one wnats to play you.

The rule of three means you get one outrider since you can have a max of 3 bike squads. My all bike list is three squads of 6 with two captains, and this is what you'll get in 2000 points. You can shuffle models about here and there in the units of course and choose whether to have missiles or not (I have 6, but that's only 30 points, which is a 70 point hole, unpluggable by anything custodes) and make up the difference with misericordia.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 greyknight12 wrote:
Right, cause all bike lists have just been dominating the tournament scene lately...

Bikes are a super solid choice that suffered under the meta. If the meta shifts, they'll return with a vengeance, but both knights and eldar flyers hit them cost effectively, and are so prominent so as to suppress bikes. Eldar flyers in general just feth up custodes though, which is why custodes led armies aren't burning up the top tables. Long as eldar flyer spam's a thing, custodes will struggle. And with the advent of chaos knights and the... uh.... poorly playtested shenanigans they can get up to, I don't think this'll change any time soon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grouchoben wrote:
Broadsides
Ravagers
Talos
Dark Reapers
Fire Prisms
Dakkafex
sniper drones
Doomsday ark
Basilisk
heavy weapon squad
Manticore
Leviathan SCA dread
Contemptor mortis
Oblits
Rapier Quads
Hellblasters
Morkanaut
Traktor Kannon
Kastellan dakkabots

... There's some pretty stiff competition for best heavy unit in the game. I don't think the Telemon makes the cut, frankly. It's not even the best heavy in the faction.

About half of these are worse than a telemon.

The Telemon with double cannons has about the same damage output as the Grav tank.. when not moving. If moving, they don't perform as well. You're essentially paying 62 points for +1 Toughness and +1 Invulnerable save while losing PoTMS and 6" of movement. Decisions decisions....

 _SeeD_ wrote:
The Telemon with double cannons has about the same damage output as the Grav tank.. when not moving. If moving, they don't perform as well. You're essentially paying 62 points for +1 Toughness and +1 Invulnerable save while losing PoTMS and 6" of movement. Decisions decisions....

Uhh, not really? Against a Tank Commander, a Telemon averages 8.89, a Caladius averages 5.55. I don't really consider a 50% bump about the same. Now, if you're shooting against non-vehicles, it'll be a lot closer for sure.

That said, people are rumbling the Caladius gets a point bump next pass. Probably not so the Telemon. The winning list of BAO was a mix with 1 Telemon and 2 Caladii so the 'top' players don't consider it a clear cut difference either.

All that said, Jetbikes will still do brutally efficient work. Imperial Knight shooting actually isn't super great against them: stomps are. Stomps hurt. The reason you don't see a lot of Jetbikes anymore is more because the shooting castle of Trajan+Caladii+Telemons is just so good. You take the castle and then two battalions of chaff. Done. Easy list with lots of power.

Audustum wrote:

 _SeeD_ wrote:
The Telemon with double cannons has about the same damage output as the Grav tank.. when not moving. If moving, they don't perform as well. You're essentially paying 62 points for +1 Toughness and +1 Invulnerable save while losing PoTMS and 6" of movement. Decisions decisions....

Uhh, not really? Against a Tank Commander, a Telemon averages 8.89, a Caladius averages 5.55. I don't really consider a 50% bump about the same. Now, if you're shooting against non-vehicles, it'll be a lot closer for sure.

It is alot closer. In fact, that's what I was basing my calculations on. Against a T8 enemy with a 5++ save, both do 4.44 wounds.

Telemon has, on a 2+ (I will assume rerolling 1s to-hit for a Captain, but not wounds) 4 S9 AP-4 D3 shots, rerolling wounds against vehicles, and 10 S5 AP-1 D1 shots. (Assuming the target is within 24".)
Caladius has, on the same BS, either 2 S9 AP-4 D3 shots, rerolling wounds against vehicles, 12 S7 AP-2 D1 shots, or 8 S8 AP-3 Dd3 shots.

Math time! Because they have a 2+ rerolling BS, I will assume they just hit. 35/36 is close enough to 1/1 I can't be assed to calculate that bit.

Telemon

vs. Leman Russ
4 Storm hits
32/9 wounds
32/9 unsaved
32/3 damage, or 10.67
10 Bolt hits
10/3 wounds
5/3 unsaved
5/3 damage, or 1.4
12.07 total

vs. Knight
4 Storm hits
32/9 wounds
64/27 unsaved
64/9 damage, or 7.11
10 bolt hits
10/3 wounds
5/3 unsaved
5/3 damage, or 1.4
8.51 total

Caladius

vs Russ
2 Storm hits
16/9 wounds
16/9 unsaved
48/9 damage, or 5.33

12 weak Storm hits
4 wounds
8/3 unsaved
8/3 damage, or 2.67

8 Accelerator hits
3 wounds
5/2 unsaved
5 damage, or 5

Not gonna bother doing math against the knight-the Telemon kicks the Caladius's butt hardcore.

They're both solid, the better choice depends on your opponent. The difference in damage output and ideal targets is significant but less so than the other respective features of the units IMO.

Against Tau, Knights, Admech etc the Telemon would the more effective choice with its 2+/4++/6+++.

Against GSC, DE, Orks etc you'll probably find more value in the FLY rule, -2 to charge rule, and POTMS of the Caladius.

When selecting units for my armies I like to think about not only how much damage they will do, but how easy it is for my enemy to gimp/destroy the unit. The Telemon, while clearly more durable vs shooting, is easy to lock up if they have the tools to do so. And if you're not sure on your opponents army perhaps taking 2 of one and one of the other is the best option, as mentioned before.

Audustum wrote:

 _SeeD_ wrote:
The Telemon with double cannons has about the same damage output as the Grav tank.. when not moving. If moving, they don't perform as well. You're essentially paying 62 points for +1 Toughness and +1 Invulnerable save while losing PoTMS and 6" of movement. Decisions decisions....

Uhh, not really? Against a Tank Commander, a Telemon averages 8.89, a Caladius averages 5.55. I don't really consider a 50% bump about the same. Now, if you're shooting against non-vehicles, it'll be a lot closer for sure.

That said, people are rumbling the Caladius gets a point bump next pass. Probably not so the Telemon. The winning list of BAO was a mix with 1 Telemon and 2 Caladii so the 'top' players don't consider it a clear cut difference either.

All that said, Jetbikes will still do brutally efficient work. Imperial Knight shooting actually isn't super great against them: stomps are. Stomps hurt. The reason you don't see a lot of Jetbikes anymore is more because the shooting castle of Trajan+Caladii+Telemons is just so good. You take the castle and then two battalions of chaff. Done. Easy list with lots of power.

The avenger is one of the best anti biker guns in the game, and double avenger is coming with chaos. Even just the castellan, the plasma cannon is pretty efficient. Of course the valiant is the most brutal with its flamer

stratigo wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 _SeeD_ wrote:
The Telemon with double cannons has about the same damage output as the Grav tank.. when not moving. If moving, they don't perform as well. You're essentially paying 62 points for +1 Toughness and +1 Invulnerable save while losing PoTMS and 6" of movement. Decisions decisions....

Uhh, not really? Against a Tank Commander, a Telemon averages 8.89, a Caladius averages 5.55. I don't really consider a 50% bump about the same. Now, if you're shooting against non-vehicles, it'll be a lot closer for sure.

That said, people are rumbling the Caladius gets a point bump next pass. Probably not so the Telemon. The winning list of BAO was a mix with 1 Telemon and 2 Caladii so the 'top' players don't consider it a clear cut difference either.

All that said, Jetbikes will still do brutally efficient work. Imperial Knight shooting actually isn't super great against them: stomps are. Stomps hurt. The reason you don't see a lot of Jetbikes anymore is more because the shooting castle of Trajan+Caladii+Telemons is just so good. You take the castle and then two battalions of chaff. Done. Easy list with lots of power.

The avenger is one of the best anti biker guns in the game, and double avenger is coming with chaos. Even just the castellan, the plasma cannon is pretty efficient. Of course the valiant is the most brutal with its flamer

I just don't see where this comes from. Assuming unbuffed on both sides, an AGC only kills a single Jetbike on average, but it has a standard deviation of 2.58 which means it's INCREDIBLY swingy. It has a 38% chance of only doing between 0 and 2 wounds, meaning a bit more than 1/3 of the time it won't even kill a Jetbike. If the Jetbike has cover (either through actual cover or the stratagem for going second) it only averages 2.67 wounds and has a standard deviation of 2.18. It upgrades to a whopping 60% chance of doing 0-2 wounds, meaning it will fail to kill a Jetbike more than half the time. If the -1 Vexilla is present (but no cover) it averages 3.00 wounds with a 2.29 deviation and has a 55% chance of doing 0-2 wounds. If both cover and the Vexilla are present, it averages 2.00 wounds with a standard deviation of 1.91 and has an enormous 73% chance of doing 0-2 wounds.

That's not terribly good to be honest. Yeah, a Chaos Knight with 2 of them and buffs will put the hurt on the squad, but that's very much a case of 'spending more to hurt less'.

 grouchoben wrote:
Broadsides
Ravagers
Talos
Dark Reapers
Fire Prisms
Dakkafex
sniper drones
Doomsday ark
Basilisk
heavy weapon squad
Manticore
Leviathan SCA dread
Contemptor mortis
Oblits
Rapier Quads
Hellblasters
Morkanaut
Traktor Kannon
Kastellan dakkabots

... There's some pretty stiff competition for best heavy unit in the game. I don't think the Telemon makes the cut, frankly. It's not even the best heavy in the faction.

HAH. You are putting Oblits and Morkanauts ahead of Telemons? And I am fairly positive the Telemon would make happy rape faces against 95% of that list if it goes first. IGOUGO makes list building by effectiveness moot anyway. It's practically worthless.

That being said, 272 points for something that can make 500pt Knights cry tears of regret is awesome in my book. Even the Mortis can't do that.

I'm confused! A Telemon with Trajan rerolls will do what, an expected 5.2 damage with its Arachnus vs a 4++ knight? That won't cause a knight 'to cry tears' of any kind.

A 3-oblit squad with the same buffs, but with votlw and cacophony average 21.8. ... More expensive by about 65pts, but incomparably better. Like, shockingly. Of course Oblits are better than Telemons in the AT roll. They're also better as anti-elites.

You bring up the Mortis - well, that with 4las and the same buffs does exactly the same damage as a Telemon against your example knight, 5.2, for more than a 100pts cheaper.

" IGOUGO makes list building by effectiveness moot anyway." Certainly there's more to a unit's profile than its damage output. I wouldn't claim otherwise. But it's a key factor, especially when weighing up a killer unit like obits or telemons, that's their primary function.

The telemon wins big in toughness, that's true. Both the other units are more glassy. but hey, one of them is over 100pts cheaper, the other does about 4 times the damage. You better be rating toughness awful high in your list-building priorities...

Well, a LOT needs to go right for that Obliterator squad to do that. You could just as easily, with the randomness of their guns, end up doing nothing. Oblits are like Big Meks with Shokk Guns. Sure, you CAN one shot that titan, but more likely you're just gonna do a few wounds and get deleted on the knights shooting phase.

My own opinion, OBlits are not anywhere near Telemon for consistent and dedicated damage.

True enough, and it's 3cp to crank them up like that, but that's the whole point of them: they buff so well.

Those are the averages though, no rerolls from casts or psykers included. Even with the dreaded 'double one' for your damage roll, blits still put out twice the hurt on a knight. But look at it this way: if you literally get 1s on every single roll - S, AP, D, twice over - then they put out 5.4 on the knight - the same expected from the Arachnus. That's how much better they are at deleting knights.

 grouchoben wrote:
True enough, and it's 3cp to crank them up like that, but that's the whole point of them: they buff so well.

Those are the averages though, no rerolls from casts or psykers included. Even with the dreaded 'double one' for your damage roll, blits still put out twice the hurt on a knight. But look at it this way: if you literally get 1s on every single roll - S, AP, D, twice over - then they put out 5.4 on the knight - the same expected from the Arachnus. That's how much better they are at deleting knights.

Which is why three of them cost 345. Almost 100 more.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
True enough, and it's 3cp to crank them up like that, but that's the whole point of them: they buff so well.

Those are the averages though, no rerolls from casts or psykers included. Even with the dreaded 'double one' for your damage roll, blits still put out twice the hurt on a knight. But look at it this way: if you literally get 1s on every single roll - S, AP, D, twice over - then they put out 5.4 on the knight - the same expected from the Arachnus. That's how much better they are at deleting knights.

Which is why three of them cost 345. Almost 100 more.

So, for a less than 50% increase in price, you get the same damage... On a 1/27 chance of rolling 1s across the board (1/81 if you save a CP to reroll one of them).

 JNAProductions wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
True enough, and it's 3cp to crank them up like that, but that's the whole point of them: they buff so well.

Those are the averages though, no rerolls from casts or psykers included. Even with the dreaded 'double one' for your damage roll, blits still put out twice the hurt on a knight. But look at it this way: if you literally get 1s on every single roll - S, AP, D, twice over - then they put out 5.4 on the knight - the same expected from the Arachnus. That's how much better they are at deleting knights.

Which is why three of them cost 345. Almost 100 more.

So, for a less than 50% increase in price, you get the same damage... On a 1/27 chance of rolling 1s across the board (1/81 if you save a CP to reroll one of them).

Honest question:

Anyone got the breakdown for all three potential firing Strengths of the Oblits against a Knight Equivalent? Just want to see wounds generated by 7/8/9, 18 shots, 4++ saves. I'm assuming the 4++ would always be better in this case.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
True enough, and it's 3cp to crank them up like that, but that's the whole point of them: they buff so well.

Those are the averages though, no rerolls from casts or psykers included. Even with the dreaded 'double one' for your damage roll, blits still put out twice the hurt on a knight. But look at it this way: if you literally get 1s on every single roll - S, AP, D, twice over - then they put out 5.4 on the knight - the same expected from the Arachnus. That's how much better they are at deleting knights.

Which is why three of them cost 345. Almost 100 more.

So, for a less than 50% increase in price, you get the same damage... On a 1/27 chance of rolling 1s across the board (1/81 if you save a CP to reroll one of them).

Honest question:

Anyone got the breakdown for all three potential firing Strengths of the Oblits against a Knight Equivalent? Just want to see wounds generated by 7/8/9, 18 shots, 4++ saves. I'm assuming the 4++ would always be better in this case.

There are nine possible shot profiles, assuming a 3+/4++ (since AP is irrelevant). But there's actually 12, since VotLW exists, and they can get 36 shots with Endless Cacophony.

36 shots
24 hits

Wounding on a 5+ gives you 8 wounds and 4 failed saves
Wounding on a 4+ gives you 12 wounds and 6 failed saves
Wounding on a 3+ gives you 16 wounds and 8 failed saves
Wounding on a 2+ gives you 20 wounds and 10 failed saves

Multiplied by 1, 2, or 3 for the damage stat, and that's assuming no rerolls at all.

Since VotLW and EC can't be stopped by an Imperial or Chaos player (and they're the only ones with Knights) that's 6 damage on the low end (S7 and 1 damage) and 30+ damage on the high end (S9, 3 damage, and some rerolls that were not factored in).

Ok, I admit defeat. I had no idea Oblits could do that sorta damage. I've never had an opponent use EC on them. Granted I've never seen them as Slaneshi. Good stuff.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Ok, I admit defeat. I had no idea Oblits could do that sorta damage. I've never had an opponent use EC on them. Granted I've never seen them as Slaneshi. Good stuff.

So instead of being argumentative and picking a fight, maybe try (at a minimum) giving other posters the benefit of the doubt when they contradict something that you personally know you aren’t as familiar with?

Goes for a lot of your posts in this thread.

Has anyone ever actually tried the Aquilon Terminators with the Solerite Power Talons? I know the Energy Fists are always the better choice for their usual task of murderizing big stuff, but I was curious.

(Sorry for derailing this thread with Oblit chat)

Tiberias wrote:
Has anyone ever actually tried the Aquilon Terminators with the Solerite Power Talons? I know the Energy Fists are always the better choice for their usual task of murderizing big stuff, but I was curious.

I've wracked my brain for reasons to run them with talons, but I have yet to find one. 3s rerolling vs flat 2s to wound infantry, loss of 1 ap, and losing d3 damage for flat 1 damage... But they don't get anything like extra attacks. So...no...can't think of a reason.

If you gave talons some reason to exist it might be worth it against hordes? I assume that's what they were going for with the idea of claws, but they lack the attacks. Thing is; give more attacks, you have to up the cost, and the fists just get even more 1 sided.

Honestly if you made the fists lose 1 attack, and the claws gain one attack, I could see that go either way depending on the opponent.

So fellas I have two Telemon Dreds, and no grav tanks. I assume the optimal setup is a shield captain to babysit them both in the twin storm cannon setup with a vexilla, using them to hopefully claim backfield objectives where possible.

Otherwise, would it be better to have one be twin fists, and one shooting?

 iGuy91 wrote:
So fellas I have two Telemon Dreds, and no grav tanks. I assume the optimal setup is a shield captain to babysit them both in the twin storm cannon setup with a vexilla, using them to hopefully claim backfield objectives where possible.

Otherwise, would it be better to have one be twin fists, and one shooting?

Shooting is always better than fists, from a competitive standpoint. You have the right idea on setup. Try not to move them for objectives unless you have to since it: 1. Makes it harder to keep them both in the auras. 2. Gives them -1 to Hit. Try to keep the Vexilla and the Shield-Captain positioned so they can heroically intervene and clear off anyone charging them.

Audustum wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
So fellas I have two Telemon Dreds, and no grav tanks. I assume the optimal setup is a shield captain to babysit them both in the twin storm cannon setup with a vexilla, using them to hopefully claim backfield objectives where possible.

Otherwise, would it be better to have one be twin fists, and one shooting?

Shooting is always better than fists, from a competitive standpoint. You have the right idea on setup. Try not to move them for objectives unless you have to since it: 1. Makes it harder to keep them both in the auras. 2. Gives them -1 to Hit. Try to keep the Vexilla and the Shield-Captain positioned so they can heroically intervene and clear off anyone charging them.

Depending on how chaos knights/disco lords impact the meta there MAY be a reason to have one with one fist just to ward off potential chargers if you're running pure custodes or minimal screens. Most of the nasty chaos stuff can't shoot a Telemon efficiently (so it will go for assault) and aggressive melee is still one of the best methods to deal with knights so I'd expect those components to be aimed at your telemons.
I'm probably wrong; I'm just wary to automatically discount S16 in any form. Against knights, the storm cannon does 2.67 wounds/turn against a 4++ knight (3.56 vs 5++), the fist does 11.11 against no CC invul (8.89 vs 5++ in CC) plus maybe 1 from the plasma projector. Trading a single storm cannon for a fist almost halves your ranged capability, but gives you a tremendous CC capability that you otherwise don't have...obviously if you don't get to punch stuff then it's not worthwhile though.

EDIT: Since I'm on a roll here, Telemons can actually take a charge from a knight fairly well; since they are T8 with a 4++ and effectively 16ish wounds. That means a knight needs to on average wound 6 times with a fist or chainsword and 16 times with feet to kill one. With WS2+ (Gallant class, no re-rolls) that's 10.8 attacks from a chainsword/fist and 12.8 attacks from feet (since they all get multiplied by 3). Combine that with a tanglefoot to deny the charge to begin with and it's unlikely that a single knight kills a telemon on the charge.

I would never advocate 2 fists. To lose such a powerful gun to gain just 1A and the flamer, for roughly the same cost, doesn't make much sense to me. But yes a fist could be a crucial factor if you are facing something like a charging knight.

Another thing to think about is that you're only taking 2 shooting units, which are both T8 2+/4++/6+++. The -1 Vexilla might be wasted on them; if anything you want you opponent to be blunting their big guns against the Telemons great durability, rather than your more fragile Jetbikes or whatever. A -1 to hit on top of that will discourage any shooting at them big time. If you start taking Caladius tanks, then stick the Vexilla back in to account for their relative lack of durability.

I honestly don't know how else besides the tanks, that Custodes are taking down any type of Knight class unit. We just don't have the shooting outside of Tank/Telemon castle. An extremely Lucky Valoris? A 10 man squad of Aquilons with Powerfists that lose two in the charge and pop Remember the Fallen?

5 Aquilons does 25ish wounds on average to a Knight with no invul, not including any damage from their guns or misericordia.

Right, I was wrong on my unit size. So if you take the full squad of 6, then lose 1 say in the charge, pop remember the fallen, you get 25 punches. Without any invuln, that's 27.78 wounds getting through.

I think I can honestly assume if you are sending out a killteam with the express purpose of dropping a knight equivalent, you are going to back it up with a Captain, or Valoris? Giving re-rolls, that boosts it over 28 and it's dead.

That all being said, a LOT has to go right there. It's an incredibly risky play, and you are spending a lot on it going just right. I am just trying to think up ways for Custodes to take down a Knight in a single turn.

Aside from Telemons, and some extremely lucky tank shooting, the other Contemptor DNs?

 greyknight12 wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
So fellas I have two Telemon Dreds, and no grav tanks. I assume the optimal setup is a shield captain to babysit them both in the twin storm cannon setup with a vexilla, using them to hopefully claim backfield objectives where possible.

Otherwise, would it be better to have one be twin fists, and one shooting?

Shooting is always better than fists, from a competitive standpoint. You have the right idea on setup. Try not to move them for objectives unless you have to since it: 1. Makes it harder to keep them both in the auras. 2. Gives them -1 to Hit. Try to keep the Vexilla and the Shield-Captain positioned so they can heroically intervene and clear off anyone charging them.

Depending on how chaos knights/disco lords impact the meta there MAY be a reason to have one with one fist just to ward off potential chargers if you're running pure custodes or minimal screens. Most of the nasty chaos stuff can't shoot a Telemon efficiently (so it will go for assault) and aggressive melee is still one of the best methods to deal with knights so I'd expect those components to be aimed at your telemons.
I'm probably wrong; I'm just wary to automatically discount S16 in any form. Against knights, the storm cannon does 2.67 wounds/turn against a 4++ knight (3.56 vs 5++), the fist does 11.11 against no CC invul (8.89 vs 5++ in CC) plus maybe 1 from the plasma projector. Trading a single storm cannon for a fist almost halves your ranged capability, but gives you a tremendous CC capability that you otherwise don't have...obviously if you don't get to punch stuff then it's not worthwhile though.

EDIT: Since I'm on a roll here, Telemons can actually take a charge from a knight fairly well; since they are T8 with a 4++ and effectively 16ish wounds. That means a knight needs to on average wound 6 times with a fist or chainsword and 16 times with feet to kill one. With WS2+ (Gallant class, no re-rolls) that's 10.8 attacks from a chainsword/fist and 12.8 attacks from feet (since they all get multiplied by 3). Combine that with a tanglefoot to deny the charge to begin with and it's unlikely that a single knight kills a telemon on the charge.

As somewhat noted below, if you're trying to melee a Knight, use Aquilons. Jetbikes also work as long as you hit the magic number connecting the charge (6 plus the Captain). Your math and mine is a little different though because the Telemon should average 5.19 wounds on a 4++ Knight with two Storm Cannons (I did add a Captain for re-rolls to Hit).

Chaos isn't the biggest player on competitive so spec'ing too hard just to fight them isn't advisable. In the last 5 weeks of major tournaments, in the top 4 lists of each, we had:

7 Orks
12 Imperium Soup (No Knights)
6 Imperium Soup (Knights)
5 GSC/Tyranids
8 Chaos Soup
10 Eldar Soup
6 Tau
2 Necrons

Chaos Soup was only 1 ahead of Orks and was behind No Knights Imperium and Eldar Soups in prevelance. Knight+Chaos (so including Imperium Knight lists) lists across the board only comprised 14/56 lists (or 2/8). You're substantially more likely to face lists without Knights in the current meta than lists with Knights. Even if Chaos Knights gives that a buff, there's a lot of other things you should prioritize being ready for first.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Right, I was wrong on my unit size. So if you take the full squad of 6, then lose 1 say in the charge, pop remember the fallen, you get 25 punches. Without any invuln, that's 27.78 wounds getting through.

I think I can honestly assume if you are sending out a killteam with the express purpose of dropping a knight equivalent, you are going to back it up with a Captain, or Valoris? Giving re-rolls, that boosts it over 28 and it's dead.

That all being said, a LOT has to go right there. It's an incredibly risky play, and you are spending a lot on it going just right. I am just trying to think up ways for Custodes to take down a Knight in a single turn.

Aside from Telemons, and some extremely lucky tank shooting, the other Contemptor DNs?

Knights will almost always charge Aquilons first. You want to pair them with a Culexus via Operative Requisition Sanctioned so that the Culexus can use the 'Soul Horror' stratagem to force the Knight to fight last. With Trajann you only need 4 Aquilons to kill a 'standard' Knight (not counting Trajann himself, so really 3+Trajann).

My math was for 1 storm cannon, vs one fist. So about half your number is about right

 greyknight12 wrote:
My math was for 1 storm cannon, vs one fist. So about half your number is about right

Fair enough on that front then!

So, why would one choose the storm cannon over the other ranged weapon? One is 4 shots, one is 8 shots, surely the higher shot weapon would average out more damage, seeing as how AP doesn't matter?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, why would one choose the storm cannon over the other ranged weapon? One is 4 shots, one is 8 shots, surely the higher shot weapon would average out more damage, seeing as how AP doesn't matter?

AP doesn't matter but strength does. The other gun is S7 so you're wounding Knights on 5's. The Storm Cannon is S9 so it wounds on 3's. The Storm Cannon also innately re-rolls all failed wounds against VEHICLE keyword. It ends up averaging out a bit more than the other gun as a result. EDIT: I should add that the Storm Cannon is flat 3 damage while the Accelerator is flat 2 damage too.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, why would one choose the storm cannon over the other ranged weapon? One is 4 shots, one is 8 shots, surely the higher shot weapon would average out more damage, seeing as how AP doesn't matter?

Because one wounds on 5s, the other on 3’s with a reroll and has more damage
Assuming accelerator hits with all the shots:
8 hits, wounding on 5s gives 2.67 wounds, 4++ means 1.33 go through for 4 dmg.

Yeah, took me a hot minute to realize the weapons on the Telemon, and the Weapons on Caladius are not quite the same gun. The Illiastus on the Tank is a better gun since its str8, d3 dmg to the Telemon's STR 7, 2 damage version.

That being said, the telemon's storm cannon is a much better version of the Caladius' blaze cannon, since its the exact same profile, but 72 inches and 36 inches for the beam/burst modes to the Caladius' 36 and 24 inch ranges

 iGuy91 wrote:
Yeah, took me a hot minute to realize the weapons on the Telemon, and the Weapons on Caladius are not quite the same gun. The Illiastus on the Tank is a better gun since its str8, d3 dmg to the Telemon's STR 7, 2 damage version.

That being said, the telemon's storm cannon is a much better version of the Caladius' blaze cannon, since its the exact same profile, but 72 inches and 36 inches for the beam/burst modes to the Caladius' 36 and 24 inch ranges

It's also 2 beam/6 burst to the effectively 1 beam/6 burst of the caladius which is the bigger factor...you can get 4 beam shots off a telemon vs 2 max off a caladius. It would be interesting for them to unify the profiles; it would change up which guns are a auto-take on the tank and telemon and make it more of a debate on which chassis you want it on.

The Callidus has the advantage of extreme movement and "fly". So it can get in and out of hot spots and cover. I haven't used dual telemons ever. I don't know if I could properly screen them enough.

I actually did run two telemons in a list this weekend.
Admittedly, it was a casual kind of game, but having one twin storm cannons, and one with a fist and culverin (thing eats hellblasters)....pretty good results. Ended up blasting the anti-armor elements away pretty fast, and then ran amok the rest of the game.

I do like my telemon twins

 iGuy91 wrote:
I actually did run two telemons in a list this weekend.
Admittedly, it was a casual kind of game, but having one twin storm cannons, and one with a fist and culverin (thing eats hellblasters)....pretty good results. Ended up blasting the anti-armor elements away pretty fast, and then ran amok the rest of the game.

I do like my telemon twins

Tell me they have names?

But of course!
I settled on Allaric and Justinian after the game.

So Custodes just took third (and 4th) at the Show Me Showdown. Here were the lists:

3rd:

Scott Thompson - Show Me Showdown
​
++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) [, 1CP] ++
+ HQ +
Captain-General Trajann Valoris []

+ Elites +
Contemptor-Achillus Dreadnought (Beta) []: 2x Lastrum Storm Bolter
Vexillus Praetor [6 PL, 124pts]: Castellan Axe, Vexilla Magnifica, Warlord

+ Fast Attack +
Pallas Grav-Attack (Beta) ]: Twin Arachnus Blaze Cannon
Pallas Grav-Attack (Beta) []: Twin Arachnus Blaze Cannon

+ Heavy Support +
Caladius Grav-tank (Beta) []: Twin Illiastus Accelerator Cannon, Twin Lastrum Bolt Cannon
Caladius Grav-tank (Beta) []: Twin Illiastus Accelerator Cannon, Twin Lastrum Bolt Cannon
Caladius Grav-tank (Beta) []: Twin Illiastus Accelerator Cannon, Twin Lastrum Bolt Cannon
Telemon Heavy Dreadnought (Beta) []: Arachnus Storm Cannon, Arachnus Storm Cannon, Spiculus Bolt Launcher

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus) [, 8CP] ++
Forge World Choice . Forge World: Graia

+ HQ +
Tech-Priest Enginseer []
Tech-Priest Enginseer []

+ Troops +
Skitarii Rangers []
. Ranger Alpha: Galvanic Rifle
. 4x Skitarii Ranger
. Skitarii Ranger (Transuranic Arquebus): Transuranic Arquebus
Skitarii Rangers [] . Ranger Alpha: Galvanic Rifle . 5x Skitarii Ranger
Skitarii Rangers [] . Ranger Alpha: Galvanic Rifle . 4x Skitarii Ranger

++ Vanguard Detachment (Imperium - Officio Assassinorum) [] ++
+ Elites +
Callidus Assassin []
Eversor Assassin []
Vindicare Assassin []

[]

4th:

Tyler DeVries - Show Me Showdown
​
Custodes spearhead detachment
trajann

Vexillus Praetor, misricordia, Vexilla Magnifica

Caladius Grav-tank Twin Illiastus Accelerator Cannon, Twin Lastrum Bolt Cannon
Caladius Grav-tank Twin Illiastus Accelerator Cannon, Twin Lastrum Bolt Cannon
Caladius Grav-tank Twin Illiastus Accelerator Cannon, Twin Lastrum Bolt Cannon

Stygies Battalion
tech priest dominus
tech priest enginseer

rangers
rangers
rangers

scorpius disintegrator, belleros energy cannon
scorpius disintegrator, belleros energy cannon
scorpius disintegrator, belleros energy cannon

Vostroyan Battalion
Emperors Fist Tank Company -1 cp

tank commander, punisher, x3 heavy bolters
tank commander, battle cannon, x2 plasma cannons, heavy bolter

platoon commander (warlord)

x10 guard
x10 guard
x10 guard

Anyone notice some similarities? It's an impressive amount of heavy shooting in the 3rd place list.

Shooting lists are always gonna be strong. Custodes just don't have any shooty options in the vanilla codex.

People are spazzing out about how strong the grav tanks are when they are needed desperately to be competitive.

They seem to be underpointed, but if we can only place in the top tables with an OP unit obviously the rest of our army needs help.

Two things:

1. What is the benefit of making the flag the warlord?
2. Why have the the LRs in that list? I'd rather drop those for CC and drop in a few more Pallas. I don't understand the value of LR in his list.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Two things:

1. What is the benefit of making the flag the warlord?
2. Why have the the LRs in that list? I'd rather drop those for CC and drop in a few more Pallas. I don't understand the value of LR in his list.

1. If you talking about list 1. Trajan has a set WL trait that kinda sucks for that list so no reason not to swap it to something else. If its list 2. The Platoon Commander can't be targeted and IG has some of the best WL traits in the game.


Yeah I'm kinda regretting posting all those Battle Reports now. Seems like my poor grav-tanks are sticking up too much and likely to get hammered down the next beta release. I just hope not too much or others are made better to compensate.

TCs are there for more dakka and threat saturation. The standard russ is very likely packing the relic battle cannon which is a flat 3 damage, can shoot the table, and with the Vostroyan strat is hitting on 2s (not to mention making the plasma fully safe and hitting out to 42 inches).

Youre looking at 8 different, dangerous tank chasses.

I guess to elaborate on my second question, is going guard for Heavy support a better idea then just going dual CC and throwing more points towards Custodes?

I would love to know if those TCs did their work or even earned their points back. In these specific matches.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I guess to elaborate on my second question, is going guard for Heavy support a better idea then just going dual CC and throwing more points towards Custodes?

I would love to know if those TCs did their work or even earned their points back. In these specific matches.

The battlecannons on the tanks are considered quite strong. Tyler seemed to be following the conventional wisdom very heavily in his list so I doubt he would spend points on Telemons, Pallas or other 'off-brand' units. As he had hit the 3 Max or the Caladius, going to Tank Commanders would be the next 'meta' move.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I guess to elaborate on my second question, is going guard for Heavy support a better idea then just going dual CC and throwing more points towards Custodes?

I would love to know if those TCs did their work or even earned their points back. In these specific matches.

You'd only have 320-ish points to work with by swapping out the TCs for CCs. Given the entire list is based around long range shooting, you're not going to get a lot out of those 320 points in additional Custodes blingery. TCs of the non-Pask variety arent flashy in the era of Knights, but they get gak done.

Is there a bad side to Pallas Grav attack tanks? The twin linked cannon, 16" move, T6, 6 wounds, PotMS, Grav Wash, for 100 points....why is no one taking these? 3+/5++, that's a lower costing harder hitting Shield Captain on a bike.

Lemans were kept down by the dominance of the castellan. With its influence waning people will catch on quick. While they are vulnerable to High AP due to the abundance of Invul saves most have been going to lower AP weapons with greater number of shots.

The LR:Conqueror I think is going to be the new sneaky unit. Just a few points more then a "Basic" LR it has a co-axial Storm bolter that lets it reroll hits within 24" (30" if Vostroyan) That 2d6 S8 shots with a 35" threat range AP -2 Dd3 for 155 points. (Not to mention the storm bolter counter as a turret weapon and get to shoot twice as well lol.) With T8 Toughness and 75% accuracy when firing at say a knight it averages 3.5 damage to a Tank Commanders 3.63 despite being Spam-able (You can bring 9 of them and still have 600 points to play around with in a 2k game) And the WL trait Old grudge is wonderful for making them incredible knight/whatever unit you really want dead hunters.

Really their primary weakness is being caught in melee. As unlike the Caladus Tank no fly keyword. So a strong screen is needed for them. And their optimal effectiveness a bit short so smart tank hunters that get a long field can out range them some what (There cannon still have 48/54" range just only get rerolls within 24") Also the 2d6 shots are feast/famine. I have had games where I was averaging 9-10 shots a tank and games where I was getting 4-5 shots. That lack of consistency can be rough.

If you want to check out the AM tactics thread I just did a mini bat rep for a tourney Saturday that I fielded 2 TC and 3 LR:C.

Hello

Pardon me if this has already been adressed, but I didnt fancy trying to read th entire thread looking for it....

I have a Supreme Command Detachment of Custodians (Yes, Dawneagle trio, I'm a bad man) to go with my Space Marines, and I was wondering if it is worth buying something to go into the elite slot?

I understand that all of the Custodian Infantry has ObSec when in a bound army, so I am likely to use such a unit to drop in on an objective and steal/contest it for me while my "main" force defends my own.
This unit would likely be put in position to shield and be supported by one of the Bikers.

Any collective wisdom on what unit would be best for this, if any at all?

Many thanks

 IHateNids wrote:
Hello

Pardon me if this has already been adressed, but I didnt fancy trying to read th entire thread looking for it....

I have a Supreme Command Detachment of Custodians (Yes, Dawneagle trio, I'm a bad man) to go with my Space Marines, and I was wondering if it is worth buying something to go into the elite slot?

I understand that all of the Custodian Infantry has ObSec when in a bound army, so I am likely to use such a unit to drop in on an objective and steal/contest it for me while my "main" force defends my own.
This unit would likely be put in position to shield and be supported by one of the Bikers.

Any collective wisdom on what unit would be best for this, if any at all?

Many thanks

The Jetbike Captains have ObSec too, just FYI.

As for Elites, we don't have much in the way of 'hang back and chill' elites. A Vexilla Praetor with the Vexilla Magnifica is the usual recommendation, but your other Custodes all have the Character keyword anyway so he likely wouldn't do much. My recommendation is to take an Aquillon squad (3 models). Then the Jetbike Captains won't have to hang around and support them.

Depending on what your marine force has, another option is the much-maligned Vexilla Defensor! He gives all imperium infantry units wholly within 9” of him 5++ against shooting. Since Space Marines already have a 3+ it only comes into play if you get hit with AP-3 or better, but for about 100 points it could make a difference for things like centurions that will draw heavy fire. Then you can give him a Castellan axe and he will be at least a decent speed bump. Cons are that the aura only applies to infantry, you have to be wholly within 9” and it’s only against shooting.

 greyknight12 wrote:
Depending on what your marine force has, another option is the much-maligned Vexilla Defensor! He gives all imperium infantry units wholly within 9” of him 5++ against shooting. Since Space Marines already have a 3+ it only comes into play if you get hit with AP-3 or better, but for about 100 points it could make a difference for things like centurions that will draw heavy fire. Then you can give him a Castellan axe and he will be at least a decent speed bump. Cons are that the aura only applies to infantry, you have to be wholly within 9” and it’s only against shooting.

Centurions are a 2+ actually, so you'd need AP-4 before it'd help them. AP-5 if they were in cover. The Vexilla helps Astra Militarum and AdMech a lot more than he helps the poor Space Marines (who need some help).

Apologies, I misinformed

When I say drop in, I meant to be used offensively rather than defensively

I play very defensive under 95% of circumstances with all 3 of my armies, so I am looking for the "over there" guys

to my understanding, isnt there a stratagem that lets people Deep Strike in? If there is, great, if not I'm limiting myself to Terminators of sorts....

Thats more what I meant, teleport into position rear/on a hard-to-fight-my-way-to objective, without sarcificing my central gunline

So, can someone tell me if they use Pallas Grav Attacks?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, can someone tell me if they use Pallas Grav Attacks?

I do. They are perfectly function-able just over shadowed by their bigger kin. They are great light/medium tank hunters and Light infantry hunters and can finish off even bigger tanks. Good for their points but They are just Good not great. The new Skorpius Disentergrator is on par with it being Toughter, more wounds, with more firepower. While the Pallus is Faster, Doesn't degrade, and can't be tied up. Both are pretty close in points.

I just love the idea that for 300 points, I get this attack squad of 3 little stupidly fast weapon platforms that I can use to flank opponents who are attempting to go after my larger targets.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I just love the idea that for 300 points, I get this attack squad of 3 little stupidly fast weapon platforms that I can use to flank opponents who are attempting to go after my larger targets.

It's actually not a bad pick at all, from a competitive standpoint. You're not handicapping yourself at all for taking them!

Yeah, they're basically super Sentinels that are actually dangerous, mobile and somewhat durable. Caladii get all the love right now, but Palles are a solid pick for non bleeding edge games.

In a similar vein, here's a Custodes update: Caladius Grav-Tanks continue to annihilate.

Andrew Gonyo took 1st at the Summer Slaughter. He had:

Super Heavy Detachment 3CP (Imperial Knights) [43PL, 822pts]
Household: Krast

-Lord of War-
• Knight Crusader [25pl, 498pts] Avenger Gatling Cannon, Rapid-Fire Battle Cannon, 2x Heavy Stubber, Heavy Flamer, Twin Icarus Autocannon
• Armiger Warglaive [9pl, 162pts] Thermal Spear, Reaper Chain Cleaver, Heavy Stubber
• Armiger Warglaive [9pl, 162pts] Thermal Spear, Reaper Chain Cleaver, Heavy Stubber

Spearhead Detachment 1CP (Adeptus Custodes) [39PL, 794pts]

-HQ-
• Shield Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9pl, 164pts] Interceptor Lance, Hurricane Bolter, Misercordia

-Heavy Support-
• Caladius Grav-Tank [10pl, 210pts] Twin Iliastus Accelerator Autocannon, Twin Lastrum Bolt Cannon
• Caladius Grav-Tank [10pl, 210pts] Twin Iliastus Accelerator Autocannon, Twin Lastrum Bolt Cannon
• Caladius Grav-Tank [10pl, 210pts] Twin Iliastus Accelerator Autocannon, Twin Lastrum Bolt Cannon

Battalion Detachment 5CP (Astra Militarum) [26PL, 384pts]
Regiment: Vostroyan
Specialist Detachment: Emperor's Fist Tank Company (-1CP)

-HQ-
• Tank Commander [12pl, 194pts] Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolter, 2x Plasma Cannon Sponson, Heavy Stubber (Free Relic: Hammer of Sunderance)
• Company Commander [2pl, 30pts]: Chainsword, Las Pistol [Warlord - Grand Strategist]

-Troops-
• Infantry Squad [3pl, 40pts] x10: Sgt with Las Pistol/Chain Sword
• Infantry Squad [3pl, 40pts] x10: Sgt with Las Pistol/Chain Sword
• Infantry Squad [3pl, 40pts] x10: Sgt with Las Pistol/Chain Sword
• Infantry Squad [3pl, 40pts] x10: Sgt with Las Pistol/Chain Sword

Total Points: 2000

Custodes also got 2nd and 3rd at GK Open:

2nd:

++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) [54 PL, 980pts] ++

+ HQ +
Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 160pts]: Hurricane Bolter . Auric Aquilis

+ Fast Attack +
Pallas Grav-Attack (Beta) [5 PL, 100pts]: Twin Arachnus Blaze Cannon

Vertus Praetors [20 PL, 360pts]
. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter
. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter
. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter
. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter

Vertus Praetors [20 PL, 360pts]
. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter
. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter
. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter
. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) [46 PL, -2CP, 1,020pts] ++
Operative Requisition Sanctioned [-2CP, 85pts]

+ HQ +
Constantine Valdor [10 PL, 185pts]

+ Elites +
Vexillus Praetor [6 PL, 120pts]: Storm Shield, Vexilla Magnifica, Warlord

+ Heavy Support +
Caladius Grav-tank (Beta) [10 PL, 210pts]: Twin Illiastus Accelerator Cannon, Twin Lastrum Bolt Cannon
Caladius Grav-tank (Beta) [10 PL, 210pts]: Twin Illiastus Accelerator Cannon, Twin Lastrum Bolt Cannon
Caladius Grav-tank (Beta) [10 PL, 210pts]: Twin Illiastus Accelerator Cannon, Twin Lastrum Bolt Cannon

++ Total: [100 PL, -2CP, 2,000pts] ++

3rd:

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) [46 PL, 935pts, 1CP] ++

+ HQ [10 PL, 185pts] +
Captain-General Trajann Valoris [10 PL, 185pts]

+ Elites [6 PL, 120pts] +
Vexillus Praetor [6 PL, 120pts]: Storm Shield [10pts], Vexilla Magnifica [30pts]

+ Heavy Support [30 PL, 630pts] +
Caladius Grav-tank (Beta) [10 PL, 210pts]: Twin Illiastus Accelerator Cannon [90pts], Twin Lastrum Bolt Cannon [20pts]
Caladius Grav-tank (Beta) [10 PL, 210pts]: Twin Illiastus Accelerator Cannon [90pts], Twin Lastrum Bolt Cannon [20pts]
Caladius Grav-tank (Beta) [10 PL, 210pts]: Twin Illiastus Accelerator Cannon [90pts], Twin Lastrum Bolt Cannon [20pts]

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [19 PL, 368pts, 5CP] ++
Operative Requisition Sanctioned [85pts, -2CP]
Regimental Doctrine: Regiment: Tallarn
Vigilus Defiant [-1CP]: Emperor's Wrath Artillery Company [-1CP]

+ HQ [4 PL, 60pts] +
Company Commander [2 PL, 30pts]: Chainsword, Emperor's Wrath, Laspistol, Warlord
Company Commander [2 PL, 30pts]: Chainsword, Emperor's Wrath, Laspistol, Relic (Emperor's Wrath): Agripinaa-Class Orbital Tracker

+ Troops [9 PL, 120pts] +
Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts] . 9x Guardsman [36pts]
. Sergeant [4pts]: Laspistol
Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts] . 9x Guardsman [36pts]
. Sergeant [4pts]: Laspistol
Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts] . 9x Guardsman [36pts]
. Sergeant [4pts]: Laspistol

+ Heavy Support [6 PL, 103pts] +
Wyverns [6 PL, 103pts]: Emperor's Wrath
. Wyvern [6 PL, 103pts]: Heavy Bolter [8pts]
​
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [45 PL, 696pts, 4CP] ++
Regimental Doctrine: Regiment: Tallarn
Vigilus Defiant [-1CP]: Emperor's Fist Tank Company [-1CP]

+ HQ [36 PL, 576pts] +
Tank Commander [12 PL, 192pts]: Emperor's Fist, Heavy Bolter [8pts], Plasma Cannons [20pts] . Command Battle Tank [22pts]: Battle Cannon [22pts]
Tank Commander [12 PL, 192pts]: Emperor's Fist, Heavy Bolter [8pts], Plasma Cannons [20pts] . Command Battle Tank [22pts]: Battle Cannon [22pts]
Tank Commander [12 PL, 192pts]: Emperor's Fist, Heavy Bolter [8pts], Plasma Cannons [20pts] . Command Battle Tank [22pts]: Battle Cannon [22pts]

+ Troops [9 PL, 120pts] +
Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts] . 9x Guardsman [36pts]
. Sergeant [4pts]: Laspistol
Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts] . 9x Guardsman [36pts]
. Sergeant [4pts]: Laspistol
Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts] . 9x Guardsman [36pts]
. Sergeant [4pts]: Laspistol
​
++ Total: [110 PL, 10CP, 1,999pts] ++

At least one of them brought some Jetbikes!

The level of mobility in that last list makes me extremely happy.

Damn that summer Slaughter list is almost exactly the same as the list I had made.

Well, it looks like the Caladius is an absolute shoe in for a good nerfing soon.

What do you Guys think of that one? Fully loaded Orion with backfield gunline:

@morkphoiz I think it definitely has some potential. I do personally like Trajan though for gunline support if you can find the points simply because I tend to roll a lot of 1s with my tanks. He also helps to mitigate the low CP that I generally have


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, my absolute favorite list from Slaughterfest, it went 4-2:

Chris Cole
Captain-General Trajann Valoris 185
Shield-Captain in Allarus Armor: castellan axe; misericordia 128
Vexilus Praetor: Vexilla Magnifica; castellan axe; misericordia 128
Palas Grav-Attack 100
Palas Grav-Attack 100
Palas Grav-Attack 100
Caladius Grav-Tank 210
Caladius Grav-Tank 210
Caladius Grav-Tank 210
Telemon Heavy Dreadnought: 2 Arachnus Storm Cannon 272
Telemon Heavy Dreadnought: 2 Arachnus Storm Cannon 272
Allied Officio Assassinorum
Operative Requisition Sanctioned 85 -2CP

Take all the good shooty things!
There were also 2 lists (one had 3 gallants and went 5-1) that were 3 Knights and a Caladius spearhead.

Does anyone have any actual experience with the Galatus? Someone's selling a pair and I'm tempted to pick them up. -1 to hit, 4++/6+++ is a pretty tough profile. Is there anyway to leverage this aspect of them?

I understand that they're weak sauce when it comes to threatening heavy targets, but they do look like capable roadblocks.

 grouchoben wrote:
Well, it looks like the Caladius is an absolute shoe in for a good nerfing soon.

Yeah hopefully it wont be too bad. If they go up 20-30 points I think they well still be in a good spot. And they are no where near as game defining as the Castellan. But they are forgeworld thus in all likelyhood going to be hammered to where they are completely useless... sigh why did I post all those Battle Reports...

I'm surprised it hasn't happened already, to be frank. They're only beta rules, FW/GW don't have to wait for the six-monthly window to swing the bat, they just need to finalise them.

Khadorstompy wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
Well, it looks like the Caladius is an absolute shoe in for a good nerfing soon.

Yeah hopefully it wont be too bad. If they go up 20-30 points I think they well still be in a good spot. And they are no where near as game defining as the Castellan. But they are forgeworld thus in all likelyhood going to be hammered to where they are completely useless... sigh why did I post all those Battle Reports...

Don’t beat yourself up too much...you can only do so much when someone wins games on stream with them.

 greyknight12 wrote:

Khadorstompy wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
Well, it looks like the Caladius is an absolute shoe in for a good nerfing soon.

Yeah hopefully it wont be too bad. If they go up 20-30 points I think they well still be in a good spot. And they are no where near as game defining as the Castellan. But they are forgeworld thus in all likelyhood going to be hammered to where they are completely useless... sigh why did I post all those Battle Reports...

Don’t beat yourself up too much...you can only do so much when someone wins games on stream with them.

Sigh its going to really depress me if they get nerfed too much. My AoS army got squatted after I JUST had it painted I just dropped a bunch on custodes and am shopping around to get them painted. I'm sure as soon as I get them painted the same thing will happen.... sigh.

My favorite issue facing my latest army is the fact that Custodes are on the verge of being replaced by Primaris armies. As it stands right now, based off the color of his armor, an Intercessor can shoot his bolter twice at a four man squad and kill all 4.

I demand Custodes get exploding 6s on shooting basic weaponry. And a pony.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
My favorite issue facing my latest army is the fact that Custodes are on the verge of being replaced by Primaris armies. As it stands right now, based off the color of his armor, an Intercessor can shoot his bolter twice at a four man squad and kill all 4.

I demand Custodes get exploding 6s on shooting basic weaponry. And a pony.

I think we're honestly still better in a general sense. T5, 3W and 2+/4++ is just way beyond an Intercessor, even a souped up one.

We are turning into a MUCH more melee focused faction than them though.

I am looking for some advice in playing vs GSC.

My general list is:
Bike Capt
Trajann
3x3 Custodians with a shield
5 bikes
5 Allarus Termie
-1 to hit banner in termie armor
and the Rusty 17 for CP

My opponent will be running GSC with Nids for the Hive Guard.
At least 20 Aberrants, genestealers, a couple of crazy psykers, and a patriarch.

Thoughts on what has worked against GSC?

Thanks!

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
My favorite issue facing my latest army is the fact that Custodes are on the verge of being replaced by Primaris armies. As it stands right now, based off the color of his armor, an Intercessor can shoot his bolter twice at a four man squad and kill all 4.

I demand Custodes get exploding 6s on shooting basic weaponry. And a pony.

Right... Assuming he gets two 6s to-hit (1/36 chance), wounds with all four (assuming a Grot, for maximum odds of success, for 625/1,296) and they fail all saves (Grot again, so no save against an AP-1 Bolt Rifle) then yes, they can kill four models.

If you're relying on a 625/46,656 chance (better expressed as just over a 1.3% chance) to get something done, you've lost.

And yes, they can get rerolls to-hit and to-wound. But we can triple the odds and it's STILL insanely unlikely.

This list came in 3rd over the weekend. Double Orions that can cap points due to being LoW's and not flyers is pretty hilarious.


Richard Martin - Super Secret GT

+ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) [22 PL, 448pts] ++
+ Lord of War +
Orion Assault Dropship (Beta) [22 PL, 448pts]: 2x Arachnus Heavy Blaze Cannon, 2x Spiculus Heavy Bolt Launcher, 2x Twin Lastrum Bolt Cannon

++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) [22 PL, 448pts] ++
+ Lord of War +
Orion Assault Dropship (Beta) [22 PL, 448pts]: 2x Arachnus Heavy Blaze Cannon, 2x Spiculus Heavy Bolt Launcher, 2x Twin Lastrum Bolt Cannon


++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) [55 PL, 1,103pts] ++
+ HQ +
Captain-General Trajann Valoris [10 PL, 185pts]
Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 160pts]: Hurricane Bolter

+ Elites +
Vexillus Praetor [6 PL, 128pts]: Castellan Axe, Misericordia, Vexilla Magnifica, Warlord

+ Heavy Support +
Caladius Grav-tank (Beta) [10 PL, 210pts]: Twin Illiastus Accelerator Cannon, Twin Lastrum Bolt Cannon
Caladius Grav-tank (Beta) [10 PL, 210pts]: Twin Illiastus Accelerator Cannon, Twin Lastrum Bolt Cannon
Caladius Grav-tank (Beta) [10 PL, 210pts]: Twin Illiastus Accelerator Cannon, Twin Lastrum Bolt Cannon


++ Total: [99 PL, 1,999pts] ++

raddman33 wrote:
I am looking for some advice in playing vs GSC.

My general list is:
Bike Capt
Trajann
3x3 Custodians with a shield
5 bikes
5 Allarus Termie
-1 to hit banner in termie armor
and the Rusty 17 for CP

My opponent will be running GSC with Nids for the Hive Guard.
At least 20 Aberrants, genestealers, a couple of crazy psykers, and a patriarch.

Thoughts on what has worked against GSC?

Thanks!

I have a game against GSC this weekend, not played them with Custodes before but I have several dozen times with my Death Guard and I honestly find them a bit underwhelming, they seem to rely on successfully making multiple charges and now you can’t DS on turn 1 they kinda got a nerf imo. I’m bringing a Culexus as GSC psychic powers can be really nasty, not just mortal wound spam but powers like Psionic Blast and Mental Onslaught can be pretty devastating for us so have a plan to shut them down or take them out. GSC unit’s themselves are not all that, our 3+W T5 2+\4+ should go some way to mitigate their damage, they really need to charge and get into melee so if we can use stratagems like Tanglefoot grenades or overwatch on 5+ then that’ll help as will our offensive output.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
My favorite issue facing my latest army is the fact that Custodes are on the verge of being replaced by Primaris armies. As it stands right now, based off the color of his armor, an Intercessor can shoot his bolter twice at a four man squad and kill all 4.

I demand Custodes get exploding 6s on shooting basic weaponry. And a pony.

Right... Assuming he gets two 6s to-hit (1/36 chance), wounds with all four (assuming a Grot, for maximum odds of success, for 625/1,296) and they fail all saves (Grot again, so no save against an AP-1 Bolt Rifle) then yes, they can kill four models.

If you're relying on a 625/46,656 chance (better expressed as just over a 1.3% chance) to get something done, you've lost.

And yes, they can get rerolls to-hit and to-wound. But we can triple the odds and it's STILL insanely unlikely.

Right, my point in being a pedantic and whiney player was to point out they get logically impossible abilities, and I want those too. Hence "...and a pony." to emphasis on the ridiculousness of my request. I wasn't trying to actually advocate new shooting rules that would end up being worthless for a heavy melee army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 slave.entity wrote:
This list came in 3rd over the weekend. Double Orions that can cap points due to being LoW's and not flyers is pretty hilarious.


Richard Martin - Super Secret GT

+ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) [22 PL, 448pts] ++
+ Lord of War +
Orion Assault Dropship (Beta) [22 PL, 448pts]: 2x Arachnus Heavy Blaze Cannon, 2x Spiculus Heavy Bolt Launcher, 2x Twin Lastrum Bolt Cannon

++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) [22 PL, 448pts] ++
+ Lord of War +
Orion Assault Dropship (Beta) [22 PL, 448pts]: 2x Arachnus Heavy Blaze Cannon, 2x Spiculus Heavy Bolt Launcher, 2x Twin Lastrum Bolt Cannon


++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) [55 PL, 1,103pts] ++
+ HQ +
Captain-General Trajann Valoris [10 PL, 185pts]
Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 160pts]: Hurricane Bolter

+ Elites +
Vexillus Praetor [6 PL, 128pts]: Castellan Axe, Misericordia, Vexilla Magnifica, Warlord

+ Heavy Support +
Caladius Grav-tank (Beta) [10 PL, 210pts]: Twin Illiastus Accelerator Cannon, Twin Lastrum Bolt Cannon
Caladius Grav-tank (Beta) [10 PL, 210pts]: Twin Illiastus Accelerator Cannon, Twin Lastrum Bolt Cannon
Caladius Grav-tank (Beta) [10 PL, 210pts]: Twin Illiastus Accelerator Cannon, Twin Lastrum Bolt Cannon


++ Total: [99 PL, 1,999pts] ++

Wow. that is one EXPENSIVE army. The orions alone are over $1k when fully done. The tanks are another 4-5 hundred. Wow. That is almost a dollar a point list.

That’s fair, Fezzik.

Tones hard to read on the internet, but my bad.

 JNAProductions wrote:
That’s fair, Fezzik.

Tones hard to read on the internet, but my bad.

Judging by the crap that I have spewed in the past, I can understand the response.

Currently a big fan of the following list:

Spearhead

Trajaan
Vexilla magnifica
Pallas Grav
Calidius grav tank x3

Spearhead

Dawneagle warlord/w auric aquillus, superior creation, VotBG

Telemon/w Double storm cannon
3x Sagittarum Guard x3/w miser's



2000 points on the dot, Sag guard either hang back with trajan buff's or advance around the table to take objectives (hopefully hugging cover for the nice 1+ save). Pallas and bike captain tear up a weak flank. If your opponent is playing a concentrated force you keep your sag guard near your tanks to toss tanglefoots and counterassault.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Currently a big fan of the following list:

Spearhead

Trajaan
Vexilla magnifica
Pallas Grav
Calidius grav tank x3

Spearhead

Dawneagle warlord/w auric aquillus, superior creation, VotBG

Telemon/w Double storm cannon
3x Sagittarum Guard x3/w miser's



2000 points on the dot, Sag guard either hang back with trajan buff's or advance around the table to take objectives (hopefully hugging cover for the nice 1+ save). Pallas and bike captain tear up a weak flank. If your opponent is playing a concentrated force you keep your sag guard near your tanks to toss tanglefoots and counterassault.

You will have very few CPs! What is the point of giving misers to the sagitarius guard, when they are almost pure shooters? If I am thinking of the right unit, it's the ones with bolters right? You're better off giving the misers to the bike and the vexhilla. You will be sure to kill anything that looks at you funny with this list!

miser's are an auto-include on sag guard. for 4 points you go from 3 attacks at str 5 no app to 4 attacks str 5 with 2 ap.

There are very few things in the game more efficient.

Since we’re all posting lists, here’s one I just tried:

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) ++

Captain-General Trajann Valoris

Vexillus Praetor: Misericordia, Vexilla Magnifica

Caladius Grav-tank (Beta): Twin Illiastus Accelerator Cannon, Twin Lastrum Bolt Cannon
Caladius Grav-tank (Beta): Twin Illiastus Accelerator Cannon, Twin Lastrum Bolt Cannon
Caladius Grav-tank (Beta): Twin Illiastus Accelerator Cannon, Twin Lastrum Bolt Cannon
Telemon Heavy Dreadnought (Beta): Arachnus Storm Cannon, Spiculus Bolt Launcher, Telemon Caestus: Twin Plasma Projector

++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) ++

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike: Hurricane Bolter, Misericordia
Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike: Hurricane Bolter

Pallas Grav-Attack (Beta): Twin Arachnus Blaze Cannon
Pallas Grav-Attack (Beta): Twin Arachnus Blaze Cannon
3x Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter

Went up a chaos “all the purge guns+Discos+knights” list and thankfully went first for the win. The idea of the Telemon is to be a countercharge unit for knights and such and can contribute from turn 1 and be a good countercharge unit along with Trajann, he replaced my Aquilons for anti-knight melee. It was an experiment, but I really like the idea of fist+gun Telemon...shoots well enough and S16 D4 is nothing to sneeze at.

I think we all have to be prepared for point increases on the pallus, calladus, telemon, and aquilon units. They are certainly under pointed and overused in the tournament setting.

I have not been including those in my list lately for those reasons.

Thoughts?

Not sure the telemon needs a price increase. Points reduction on the fists would be better in my view. They are ridiculously priced but would be nice in some scenarios since the tele can be neutralized by being stuck in cc.

Aquillons are overcosted actually, and the pallas is dead on.

If they nerf the tanks (which they probably should) they need to reduce points cost on all custodies infantry to make up for it.

We cannot compete at top tables without the tanks atm (imo) so we need some kind of compensation if they nerf them.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
miser's are an auto-include on sag guard. for 4 points you go from 3 attacks at str 5 no app to 4 attacks str 5 with 2 ap.

There are very few things in the game more efficient.

My Kingdom to be able to run Sagitarii as Troops.

I would say the Caladius should get a points buff to be similar to the shooty Telemon. Pallas...maybe a small one? I think it's fine though. Aquilons are also O.K. Their issue is delivery not cost.

raddman33 wrote:
I think we all have to be prepared for point increases on the pallus, calladus, telemon, and aquilon units. They are certainly under pointed and overused in the tournament setting.

I have not been including those in my list lately for those reasons.

Thoughts?

I could see the gravs going up but not the rest. Aquilons die too easy and honestly most time don't make their points back. Telemons honestly if anything are a bit overcosted as well. Their "Best" setup is double arachnus which leaves them very vulnerable to being tied up in melee and unless the opponent is running a bunch of vehicles again is just mediocre.

The mobility of the Gravs and their inability to get tied up is what makes them kingly. Honestly though they only need a minor bump at best as they very vulnerable to S8 weapons and ap -2 weapons. They are not the dominating presence that Knights are and are must easier to deal with.

That being said this is GW and they have a tenancy to over correct. So I fully expect to see custodes reduced to a bottom tier army. Though I will give credit and say they have been doing better lately and think Castellean was spot on. (The FW Knights one however was still pretty bad.)

I love that the second we get a few top 10 finishes, people are saying Custodes need a nerf. Can't we point to the Meta and say hey, there are like 3 armies that have consistently dominated the meta for the past few months. But sure, let's beat down Custodes.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Currently a big fan of the following list:

Spearhead

Trajaan
Vexilla magnifica
Pallas Grav
Calidius grav tank x3

Spearhead

Dawneagle warlord/w auric aquillus, superior creation, VotBG

Telemon/w Double storm cannon
3x Sagittarum Guard x3/w miser's



2000 points on the dot, Sag guard either hang back with trajan buff's or advance around the table to take objectives (hopefully hugging cover for the nice 1+ save). Pallas and bike captain tear up a weak flank. If your opponent is playing a concentrated force you keep your sag guard near your tanks to toss tanglefoots and counterassault.

I'm honest not sure what the apeal of Sag guard is. They basically have an assault hb with a kinda crappy alt mode. Coming in at nearly 60 points a pop too they need a rework.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I love that the second we get a few top 10 finishes, people are saying Custodes need a nerf. Can't we point to the Meta and say hey, there are like 3 armies that have consistently dominated the meta for the past few months. But sure, let's beat down Custodes.

Sometimes its best to hope for a quick small nerf then a gigantic ban hammer later.

Ultimately I think Caladii (I made that up) are going to be less and less of a “problem” in tournaments as people start planning to kill them; even in my own games I’ve seen a shift in focus to killing them vs targeting my bikes. And unlike the T8 3++ Castellan they replaced, a -1 to-hit Caladius is a stormraven with a 5++...and we’ve been killing stormravens since the beginning of 8th edition. They just hit hard enough that you have to kill them, and a lot of lists don’t bring the means to do so or focus on them appropriately.
What I would really like though is to change the other gun to match the Telemon version. Give some variety.

Yeah and has anyone SEEN the new stuff marines are getting. Yeah I don't think after that dex drops we are going to be on anyones radar for awhile.

Khadorstompy wrote:
Yeah and has anyone SEEN the new stuff marines are getting. Yeah I don't think after that dex drops we are going to be on anyones radar for awhile.

Eh, it's good, but it's still debatable if it will be enough to make them competitive. The Caladius will almost certainly be taking a hit at some point. The rest of us is probably fine though.

The point is, if marines are getting +to hit, exploding 6s, FnP against mortal wounds, and basically a ton of other buffs, I don't see how they nerf Custodes. If these changes go live as is, I can see SMs get a major boost up the rankings, especiallys CS and RG.

I really hope there are some boosts to Custodes coming, because right now the base units are basically subpar, and you have to go FW if you want any chance of success. Callidi, Telemons, Aquilons, and Trajan. Forget bikes, forget Custodes Guard, forget anything in the base codex.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The point is, if marines are getting +to hit, exploding 6s, FnP against mortal wounds, and basically a ton of other buffs, I don't see how they nerf Custodes. If these changes go live as is, I can see SMs get a major boost up the rankings, especiallys CS and RG.

I really hope there are some boosts to Custodes coming, because right now the base units are basically subpar, and you have to go FW if you want any chance of success. Callidi, Telemons, Aquilons, and Trajan. Forget bikes, forget Custodes Guard, forget anything in the base codex.

Do you think the codex units are bad in general, or just in this current meta? Because it hard for me to believe that S5, T5 units that all hit on 2+ with 2+/4++ saves is bad. They still hit very hard in melee.....once and if they get there.

Tiberias wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The point is, if marines are getting +to hit, exploding 6s, FnP against mortal wounds, and basically a ton of other buffs, I don't see how they nerf Custodes. If these changes go live as is, I can see SMs get a major boost up the rankings, especiallys CS and RG.

I really hope there are some boosts to Custodes coming, because right now the base units are basically subpar, and you have to go FW if you want any chance of success. Callidi, Telemons, Aquilons, and Trajan. Forget bikes, forget Custodes Guard, forget anything in the base codex.

Do you think the codex units are bad in general, or just in this current meta? Because it hard for me to believe that S5, T5 units that all hit on 2+ with 2+/4++ saves is bad. They still hit very hard in melee.....once and if they get there.

The big problem is 'if". It plagues the Aquilons too to be honest. We have no good delivery system and so the melee aspect of the army, while statistically powerful, falls apart. Even a re-roll charges aura (which barely gets it above 50% success rate for coming out of Deep Strike) would go a long way.

In contrast to Fezzik, I do think Jetbikes are fine though. A Jetbike/Caladius list even just placed well at a GT. They're as strong as ever.

Audustum wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The point is, if marines are getting +to hit, exploding 6s, FnP against mortal wounds, and basically a ton of other buffs, I don't see how they nerf Custodes. If these changes go live as is, I can see SMs get a major boost up the rankings, especiallys CS and RG.

I really hope there are some boosts to Custodes coming, because right now the base units are basically subpar, and you have to go FW if you want any chance of success. Callidi, Telemons, Aquilons, and Trajan. Forget bikes, forget Custodes Guard, forget anything in the base codex.

Do you think the codex units are bad in general, or just in this current meta? Because it hard for me to believe that S5, T5 units that all hit on 2+ with 2+/4++ saves is bad. They still hit very hard in melee.....once and if they get there.

The big problem is 'if". It plagues the Aquilons too to be honest. We have no good delivery system and so the melee aspect of the army, while statistically powerful, falls apart. Even a re-roll charges aura (which barely gets it above 50% success rate for coming out of Deep Strike) would go a long way.

In contrast to Fezzik, I do think Jetbikes are fine though. A Jetbike/Caladius list even just placed well at a GT. They're as strong as ever.

Yes I agree with you on that. It's a pity though...for example I really love the Custodes Warden models and I like to play them, but it is just frustrating that very often they just don't make the assault. I mostly play them in reserve with from golden light they come, but even then making the charge is often very tough.
I do like the bikes and the caladius generally, but I hate that you basically HAVE to take them. I mean don't get me wrong, if you just play with your best buddies and you all agree not to take super maxed out meta lists you can play what you want, but even then it can be very frustrating if you play a mostly infantry custodes list.

Wardens would be worth their points if they dropped the FnP by 1, or they gave them access to other strats. At they are, they are a slightly less crappy version of custodes terminators. I would love to see Wardens gain access to some form of Anti-tank weapon, or make the GW terminators get access to like a Krak round for their launchers.

It's obvious GW was trying to make an all infantry melee elite army, which is fine, unless you don't give them any anti-tank, or a way to get into melee. FGLTC is fine, but you have to wait until turn 2, and they match could be over by then.

GW needs to give non-FW Custodes something to handle tanks, infantry based, long range, and they need a boost to their charging.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wardens would be worth their points if they dropped the FnP by 1, or they gave them access to other strats. At they are, they are a slightly less crappy version of custodes terminators. I would love to see Wardens gain access to some form of Anti-tank weapon, or make the GW terminators get access to like a Krak round for their launchers.

It's obvious GW was trying to make an all infantry melee elite army, which is fine, unless you don't give them any anti-tank, or a way to get into melee. FGLTC is fine, but you have to wait until turn 2, and they match could be over by then.

GW needs to give non-FW Custodes something to handle tanks, infantry based, long range, and they need a boost to their charging.

Help with charges for custodes infantry would be nice, but a +5 FnP for Wardens would be too powerful to be honest in my opinion. That would arguably make them the best infantry melee unit in the game

Seriously? They cost almost 70pts per. They have a S8 3d weapon, and a S5 1d weapon. They have week shooting. They have a 5++ just for being custodes. They are pretty much the gold standard for hard to kill elite infantry. But no where near over powered.

1. Cost
2. Elite Slot
3. Can't FGLTC without CP
4. Hard to get into charge distance
5. Kinda worthless until turn 2/3 cus of their movement speed.

You want a T5 BS2+ 2+/4++/5+++ 3W 4A model for 57 points?

Yeah that aint happening.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Seriously? They cost almost 70pts per. They have a S8 3d weapon, and a S5 1d weapon. They have week shooting. They have a 5++ just for being custodes. They are pretty much the gold standard for hard to kill elite infantry. But no where near over powered.

1. Cost
2. Elite Slot
3. Can't FGLTC without CP
4. Hard to get into charge distance
5. Kinda worthless until turn 2/3 cus of their movement speed.

Yes I am serious, and you sound like hitting with S8 AP-2 is not good? They don't have the best shooting but I would not call doing 2dmg per shot weak while always hitting on 2+.

And yes, if they also had a 5+ FnP they would be a very strong contender for the best melee infantry unit in the game.

Tiberias wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Seriously? They cost almost 70pts per. They have a S8 3d weapon, and a S5 1d weapon. They have week shooting. They have a 5++ just for being custodes. They are pretty much the gold standard for hard to kill elite infantry. But no where near over powered.

1. Cost
2. Elite Slot
3. Can't FGLTC without CP
4. Hard to get into charge distance
5. Kinda worthless until turn 2/3 cus of their movement speed.

Yes I am serious, and you sound like hitting with S8 AP-2 is not good? They don't have the best shooting but I would not call doing 2dmg per shot weak while always hitting on 2+.

And yes, if they also had a 5+ FnP they would be a very strong contender for the best melee infantry unit in the game.

Ehh, I don't agree with that either. They're already 6++ and resoundingly 'meh'. The BS is good but the gun is fairly lame (not enough AP for TEQ, not enough volume for GEQ and not enough strength for armor). The melee is great but, as noted before, they don't really survive to get there. 5++ might actually get them there.

I think they should give us more command points (either by making it easier to fill out a battalion or reducing the cost of strategems). Everyone else has a ton of good stuff. Why can't we have some more goodies?

CrabstuffedMushrooms wrote:
I think they should give us more command points (either by making it easier to fill out a battalion or reducing the cost of strategems). Everyone else has a ton of good stuff. Why can't we have some more goodies?

Because our basic troops are HQ's in any other army, and our Elites can punch knights to death?

Audustum wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Seriously? They cost almost 70pts per. They have a S8 3d weapon, and a S5 1d weapon. They have week shooting. They have a 5++ just for being custodes. They are pretty much the gold standard for hard to kill elite infantry. But no where near over powered.

1. Cost
2. Elite Slot
3. Can't FGLTC without CP
4. Hard to get into charge distance
5. Kinda worthless until turn 2/3 cus of their movement speed.

Yes I am serious, and you sound like hitting with S8 AP-2 is not good? They don't have the best shooting but I would not call doing 2dmg per shot weak while always hitting on 2+.

And yes, if they also had a 5+ FnP they would be a very strong contender for the best melee infantry unit in the game.

Ehh, I don't agree with that either. They're already 6++ and resoundingly 'meh'. The BS is good but the gun is fairly lame (not enough AP for TEQ, not enough volume for GEQ and not enough strength for armor). The melee is great but, as noted before, they don't really survive to get there. 5++ might actually get them there.

Ok all things aside am I the only one to whom it's absolutely ridiculous that the game has evolved into something where a unit like Wardens is considered "meh" and if you were to give them a 5+++ they would just make the cut. I am not talking about the meta here. If the game requires such absurd levels of powercreep for non titanic and flying units to be viable, there is something wrong with the game on a deeper level.

Tiberias wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Seriously? They cost almost 70pts per. They have a S8 3d weapon, and a S5 1d weapon. They have week shooting. They have a 5++ just for being custodes. They are pretty much the gold standard for hard to kill elite infantry. But no where near over powered.

1. Cost
2. Elite Slot
3. Can't FGLTC without CP
4. Hard to get into charge distance
5. Kinda worthless until turn 2/3 cus of their movement speed.

Yes I am serious, and you sound like hitting with S8 AP-2 is not good? They don't have the best shooting but I would not call doing 2dmg per shot weak while always hitting on 2+.

And yes, if they also had a 5+ FnP they would be a very strong contender for the best melee infantry unit in the game.

Ehh, I don't agree with that either. They're already 6++ and resoundingly 'meh'. The BS is good but the gun is fairly lame (not enough AP for TEQ, not enough volume for GEQ and not enough strength for armor). The melee is great but, as noted before, they don't really survive to get there. 5++ might actually get them there.

Ok all things aside am I the only one to whom it's absolutely ridiculous that the game has evolved into something where a unit like Wardens is considered "meh" and if you were to give them a 5+++ they would just make the cut. I am not talking about the meta here. If the game requires such absurd levels of powercreep for non titanic and flying units to be viable, there is something wrong with the game on a deeper level.

The problem started when GW thought a Melee heavy low unit count army could compete with horde armies on a d6 probability system.

The d6 system is a problem, but removing things like the weapon skill system completely instead of expanding and improving it was also stupid. It devalued elite units more than average ones and placed way more importance on who gets the charge.
What I mean by that is, when a unit of genestealers charges another infantry unit, it doesn't matter if the charged unit are space marines or custodians, they'll most likely die because of the sheer number of attacks....but there should be a difference, Custodes should be harder to overcome since they are fewer. And yes, they have better saves etc, but again the sheer number of attacks forces wounds anyway, no matter the save.

Also they could have made way more interesting special abilities for low model count infantry armies.
For example the custodes are described as indomitable guardians, to represent this they could have given them a melee overwatch with their spears on a 5+ when they are charged and the charging enemy unit has a certain size....like when it exeeds the number of the custodes unit by at least 5. Thats just off the top of my head, but you get my point.

Tiberias wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Seriously? They cost almost 70pts per. They have a S8 3d weapon, and a S5 1d weapon. They have week shooting. They have a 5++ just for being custodes. They are pretty much the gold standard for hard to kill elite infantry. But no where near over powered.

1. Cost
2. Elite Slot
3. Can't FGLTC without CP
4. Hard to get into charge distance
5. Kinda worthless until turn 2/3 cus of their movement speed.

Yes I am serious, and you sound like hitting with S8 AP-2 is not good? They don't have the best shooting but I would not call doing 2dmg per shot weak while always hitting on 2+.

And yes, if they also had a 5+ FnP they would be a very strong contender for the best melee infantry unit in the game.

Ehh, I don't agree with that either. They're already 6++ and resoundingly 'meh'. The BS is good but the gun is fairly lame (not enough AP for TEQ, not enough volume for GEQ and not enough strength for armor). The melee is great but, as noted before, they don't really survive to get there. 5++ might actually get them there.

Ok all things aside am I the only one to whom it's absolutely ridiculous that the game has evolved into something where a unit like Wardens is considered "meh" and if you were to give them a 5+++ they would just make the cut. I am not talking about the meta here. If the game requires such absurd levels of powercreep for non titanic and flying units to be viable, there is something wrong with the game on a deeper level.

There are definitely some issues, yeah. The problem is shooting is SO lethal. If you can't survive a round of fire pouring into you and keep MOST of your strength intact, you need to be able to Hit INSTANTLY or you're obsolete. A shooting unit is good if it can hide and then fire (our Caladius out runs and put ranges most anything, for example, part of what makes Tank Commanders great is the board clearing range) or if it can eat a round and return fire (all Mechanicum Knights with Machine Spirit Resurgent).

Melee just isn't made tough enough to do that, even our melee. So it needs to Hit INSTANTLY or fall by the wayside (like Jetbikes who have Fly and 14" Move or Blood Angels with 3D6" charge, e.t.c.).

Character rule also helps here because you can hide them behind an advancing screen (Daemon Princes and Plaguebearers).

See, your suggestion actually would be game breaking, because there is no way to counter or avoid it. Custodians with spears just become unchargable.

My suggestion was just aimed at making JUST THE WARDENS way harder to kill.

Small elite armies suffer from the d6 system the worst. Because it's easy for Guard to shrug off losses if they don't matter. But every single model in a Custodes army matters. And each model has to earn it's points back, or it fails.

That means that 1 squad of three custodes guard need to kill 3 squads of guard just to not be worthless. We need to expand the d6 systems or Custodes will continue to fall farther off the chart.

That all being said, has anyone seen the new stuff from GW for Ultras? Dear god....

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
See, your suggestion actually would be game breaking, because there is no way to counter or avoid it. Custodians with spears just become unchargable.

My suggestion was just aimed at making JUST THE WARDENS way harder to kill.

Small elite armies suffer from the d6 system the worst. Because it's easy for Guard to shrug off losses if they don't matter. But every single model in a Custodes army matters. And each model has to earn it's points back, or it fails.

That means that 1 squad of three custodes guard need to kill 3 squads of guard just to not be worthless. We need to expand the d6 systems or Custodes will continue to fall farther off the chart.

That all being said, has anyone seen the new stuff from GW for Ultras? Dear god....

Like I said, my suggestion was just an example off the top of my head, but I don't see how it would be gamebreaking. You still only hit on 5s and the whole thing only comes into play if the enemy unit exceeds your own units model count by a certain extent. If you were to playtest this and it proved too strong you could also limit it to only apply when your custodes are currently holding and defending an objective or something like that. My point is there are so many interesting directions GW could go with this.
Also don't get me wrong, I am a custodes player myself so I would of course love to have Wardens with a 5+++, but I also think that would be a small bandaid to a bigger problem, like we have already discussed.

As an update on our FW stuff, London GT just banned all Custodes beta units.

Audustum wrote:
As an update on our FW stuff, London GT just banned all Custodes beta units.

I thought London GT followed ETC rules and didn’t allow FW anyway?

 greyknight12 wrote:

Audustum wrote:
As an update on our FW stuff, London GT just banned all Custodes beta units.

I thought London GT followed ETC rules and didn’t allow FW anyway?

London GT is ITC, actually.

Considering London GT doesn't even know how to ban known cheaters, maybe this is a step in the wrong direction?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
See, your suggestion actually would be game breaking, because there is no way to counter or avoid it. Custodians with spears just become unchargable.

My suggestion was just aimed at making JUST THE WARDENS way harder to kill.

Small elite armies suffer from the d6 system the worst. Because it's easy for Guard to shrug off losses if they don't matter. But every single model in a Custodes army matters. And each model has to earn it's points back, or it fails.

That means that 1 squad of three custodes guard need to kill 3 squads of guard just to not be worthless. We need to expand the d6 systems or Custodes will continue to fall farther off the chart.

That all being said, has anyone seen the new stuff from GW for Ultras? Dear god....

That would be good logic if the game came down to tableing as the only way to win. Killing two guard squads would put you up on kill points even if you were down on total points and tge value of a unit is not just in what it kills

what kind of moron decides to ban models that GW themselves made the rules for at a major GT?

Oh well, its their tourney and Im not even close enough to think about going so not my loss.

Audustum wrote:
As an update on our FW stuff, London GT just banned all Custodes beta units.

LGT is not exactly a high point in the 40k scene. After last year I'm suprised anyone considers it a major event.

Curious, what do current lists that aren't just 1500+ points in tanks look like? my main army is sisters so I can supplement troops from there

Don't need to be super competitive, just get my feet wet.

Essentially they are 1500pts of Aquillons Terminators, Custodes Terminators, Troops, and Jetbikes.

However I hold out slim hopes that GW will somehow fix the problem they have recently created where the NuMarines are basically better at assaulting then the GodMarines.

I mean, there isn't much we can buff without breaking Custodes, but I am seriously stunned by the new buffs to Marines.

Just starting out with Custodes here, taking them as my casual army (so no Calladius.)

Next on the building block are Venetari, whats considered the better load out? Pistol and buckler or Lances?

Sneggy wrote:
Just starting out with Custodes here, taking them as my casual army (so no Calladius.)

Next on the building block are Venetari, whats considered the better load out? Pistol and buckler or Lances?

If i remember the math right, the pistol and buckler are better 100% of the time.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

However I hold out slim hopes that GW will somehow fix the problem they have recently created where the NuMarines are basically better at assaulting then the GodMarines.

I mean, there isn't much we can buff without breaking Custodes, but I am seriously stunned by the new buffs to Marines.

Wait is it really that bad, or is it just that marines are almost as good but much cheaper?

 iGuy91 wrote:

Sneggy wrote:
Just starting out with Custodes here, taking them as my casual army (so no Calladius.)

Next on the building block are Venetari, whats considered the better load out? Pistol and buckler or Lances?

If i remember the math right, the pistol and buckler are better 100% of the time.

There are one or two niche instances where the pointy stick wins out, but they’re very unlikely to actually occur. Gunslinger is the way to go.

 Grundz wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

However I hold out slim hopes that GW will somehow fix the problem they have recently created where the NuMarines are basically better at assaulting then the GodMarines.

I mean, there isn't much we can buff without breaking Custodes, but I am seriously stunned by the new buffs to Marines.

Wait is it really that bad, or is it just that marines are almost as good but much cheaper?

There is a very good chance I am being chicken little here, but yes. Primaris marines are getting buffs that make Custodes look silly. Re-roll charges, D2 shooting, extra attacks on melee, extra shooty auto bolters (4 shot assault), exploding 6s, no cover vs their shooting, character sniping, anti-tank sniper weapons, flying transports, assault transports that potentially act as a turn 1 DS, and they cost about half what Custodes do.

Now, custodes have the wounds, a blanket 4++ on their infantry, a 5+++ on Psychic, and the melee to bully knights, but we also cost 75pts per troop model, and our terminators cost just under 100 per model. We can't

A basic custodian is 52 points. 56 if you opt for the missy. 57 if you go sword and board.

I get that you're upset, but at least be accurate with your objections.

Thing is, d3 damage is still really, really good vs primaris. We have d3 damage in spades, and most primaris shooting wounds on 5s. We might need to re-tool some things though. Their vehicles are still stupidly over-priced, so we're not likely going to need to worry about our anti-tank a ton.

 iGuy91 wrote:
Thing is, d3 damage is still really, really good vs primaris. We have d3 damage in spades, and most primaris shooting wounds on 5s. We might need to re-tool some things though. Their vehicles are still stupidly over-priced, so we're not likely going to need to worry about our anti-tank a ton.

I'm still pushing around points to figure out a list, but it really seems like custodes in cover with -1 to hit are going to come on top vs anything but absolutely withering firepower

So my big problem has been keeping my flag with my units I want to protect, ala tanks with fly and or terminators. He's a character, so he can and usually does get targeted by a sniper or something with character rules, a psyker or something, and dropped like he's hot. Or, he can't keep up with the tanks and I have to FGLTC him, which costs CP.

I am having trouble keeping him alive, or with the units he's supposed to buff. I want to start experimenting with the flag guy in terminator armor. His shooting isn't terrible, and he can come in with the terminators for no CP.

I just footslog the Vexila and keep him out of los as much as possible. Hardly groundbreaking but I’ve just started Custodes & I must admit I’m finding their bolter equiv shooting (spears & axes) a bit lacklustre. The d2 is nice but honestly they feel like they should be rapid fire 2. I know that melee is where it’s at but it’s painful to take down screens without bikes.

Malefic666 wrote:
I just footslog the Vexila and keep him out of los as much as possible. Hardly groundbreaking but I’ve just started Custodes & I must admit I’m finding their bolter equiv shooting (spears & axes) a bit lacklustre. The d2 is nice but honestly they feel like they should be rapid fire 2. I know that melee is where it’s at but it’s painful to take down screens without bikes.

Lastrum Bolters on the Aquilons can help you there since they are Rapid 2, but yeah, screens are tough without allies or Jetbike Bolters.

So, for the nearest living specimens to the holy E himself, they are surprisingly bad at shooting compared to their weaker/lesser brethren.

They still follow OLD bolter rules, they basically have master crafted bolters. That all being said, if you are shooting with Custodes Infantry, you're doing it wrong.

It's like the old Pistol saying in the Army. A Pistol is only good for getting to another Rifle. Shooting for Custodes is just icing on the cake that is Custodes Melee attacks. Hello Mr. squad of anything, I would like to hit you 12 times right now with my Axe/Spear/Sword/Fist for obscene damage, then I would like to stab you with this S5 dagger. Because I hate your existence.

I like to use a vex in terminator armor and give him the Castellan relic, nominate trajann. DS DS trajann in, and when he is attacked, jump the vex in to him. This works well with the +1 attack and with the -1 to hit.

This is an effective way to make sure the banner keeps up.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, for the nearest living specimens to the holy E himself, they are surprisingly bad at shooting compared to their weaker/lesser brethren.

They still follow OLD bolter rules, they basically have master crafted bolters. That all being said, if you are shooting with Custodes Infantry, you're doing it wrong.

It's like the old Pistol saying in the Army. A Pistol is only good for getting to another Rifle. Shooting for Custodes is just icing on the cake that is Custodes Melee attacks. Hello Mr. squad of anything, I would like to hit you 12 times right now with my Axe/Spear/Sword/Fist for obscene damage, then I would like to stab you with this S5 dagger. Because I hate your existence.

Maybe we’ll get better shooting now SM have been thrown a bone. If we could have the beta guns as troops or maybe rapid fire 2 / assault 3 spears that would help.

I get that and understand Custodes are all about melee (though not everything is ‘that’ good at actually wounding) but with no transports and only FTGLTC for 9” charges I’m all ears for how to ensure that melee happens? Especially with our footslogging units like Custodian Guard.

I’m genuinely struggling a bit with Custodes as I regularly play against lists with 90 Plaguebearers / 60-80 Gaunts & Stealers, mech Guard with 60+ IG... Or Knights/CSM Knights

Against Nids recently my DAShield Captain charged a Flyrant, hit 5 or 6 times (basically didn’t miss) and wounded once (5+ to wound with re-roll), he did no wounds.. I was like WTf? A SC should take a good chunk of wounds off a Flyrant. My 3x3 Custodian Guard tanked a lot of shooting (thanks to the SS/sword) from those horrible Hive Guard that don’t need LOS but hardly saw melee despite me pushing them up as aggressively as possible. Their shooting was negligible, a few Gaunts a turn.

My next build is to drop the 2 x Caladius for 9 Wardens with axes. Drop them in aggressively with a TA Vexilla and Trajan.

Im seriously wondering if the 5 CPs the Custodes Guard bring is worth bringing the Guard for. For their price I can have 5 bikes. 5 bikes that do 60 shots at 12” and move quickly around the board.

So, vs. Hordes axes are rather pointless. Sure, they'll drop the big stuff fast, but against hordes, sword and board work great in my experience. You get added suitability, and still wound on 3s. You can also go spears and do just as well.

Hordes do well against Custodes if you don't have a lot of CP especially. There are a lot of strats that allow us to fight first, or fight out of turn, or just get a free fight phase. Also, the spear buffs or sword buffs. You need to have a lot of CP to take down hordes as Custodes, in my experience.

Malefic666 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, for the nearest living specimens to the holy E himself, they are surprisingly bad at shooting compared to their weaker/lesser brethren.

They still follow OLD bolter rules, they basically have master crafted bolters. That all being said, if you are shooting with Custodes Infantry, you're doing it wrong.

It's like the old Pistol saying in the Army. A Pistol is only good for getting to another Rifle. Shooting for Custodes is just icing on the cake that is Custodes Melee attacks. Hello Mr. squad of anything, I would like to hit you 12 times right now with my Axe/Spear/Sword/Fist for obscene damage, then I would like to stab you with this S5 dagger. Because I hate your existence.

Maybe we’ll get better shooting now SM have been thrown a bone. If we could have the beta guns as troops or maybe rapid fire 2 / assault 3 spears that would help.

I get that and understand Custodes are all about melee (though not everything is ‘that’ good at actually wounding) but with no transports and only FTGLTC for 9” charges I’m all ears for how to ensure that melee happens? Especially with our footslogging units like Custodian Guard.

I’m genuinely struggling a bit with Custodes as I regularly play against lists with 90 Plaguebearers / 60-80 Gaunts & Stealers, mech Guard with 60+ IG... Or Knights/CSM Knights

Against Nids recently my DAShield Captain charged a Flyrant, hit 5 or 6 times (basically didn’t miss) and wounded once (5+ to wound with re-roll), he did no wounds.. I was like WTf? A SC should take a good chunk of wounds off a Flyrant. My 3x3 Custodian Guard tanked a lot of shooting (thanks to the SS/sword) from those horrible Hive Guard that don’t need LOS but hardly saw melee despite me pushing them up as aggressively as possible. Their shooting was negligible, a few Gaunts a turn.

My next build is to drop the 2 x Caladius for 9 Wardens with axes. Drop them in aggressively with a TA Vexilla and Trajan.

Im seriously wondering if the 5 CPs the Custodes Guard bring is worth bringing the Guard for. For their price I can have 5 bikes. 5 bikes that do 60 shots at 12” and move quickly around the board.

This all sounds like you aren't optimized enough but were facing fairly optimized lists (except the Shield-Captain, that was just unlucky).

Long ago, before the FW units got rules, we learned that outside a rare scenario or two, an optimized Custodes list is 10+ Jetbikes and the Vexillus. FW now has also made Orions, Caladii, Pallas and Telemons viable.

As an example, take an Outrider of Jetbikes with a Jetbike Captains, the Rusty 17 and 2 Caladii. Do whatever with the extra points. You'll drop them like a sack of dirt.

I cannot for the life of me make a 1.5k pure Custodes list I like. Not enough points to wiggle in fun toys and a battalion...

 iGuy91 wrote:
I cannot for the life of me make a 1.5k pure Custodes list I like. Not enough points to wiggle in fun toys and a battalion...

Keeping pure hurts, a lot. From an optimization standpoint you could just drop the battalion idea. You can do a Spearhead and an Outrider of: Shield-Captain, 3x Caladius Grav-Tanks, Vexillus Praetor with Magnifica, Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike, 1x Vertus Praetors and 2x Pallas for 1,498. You'll have 5 CP, but all you really want it for is Stooping Drive and some re-rolls so it should work.

If all you want is 1500 points, I mean, go ham on infantry and HQ bikes. Make it fun. Everything in the game has to work overtime to kill one of our guys.

After a couple games, I’m really liking the gun+fist Telemon. He’s been a huge help as a countercharge unit, and unlike Aquilons can contribute from turn 1 with shooting while putting similar damage on knights in CC. I don’t think he’s a replacement for a caladius, but rather a substitute for a bike squad or Aquilons. I’m also rediscovering 2 3++ bike captains as bully units rather than simply taking the one; basically bike captain+Pallas instead of a bike squad. I’ve got a series of games against some fairly good players in a single elimination tourney league coming up, so I’ll be putting both concepts through the ringer over the next few weeks.

Which of these lists do you think is stronger? I have a game vs marines coming up.

Both are a 2k battalion.

Custodes 2k



Custodes Twins 2k

List 2 just cos of the 2 Telemons. Also I prefer bikes in squads of 5-6, 3 is too small as if you lose one 2 aren’t doing much.

I would ditch as much infantry as possible for more Jetbikes, ESPECIALLY Allarus.

2 Jetbikes still do plenty. I've run 3x3 forever and it doesn't let me down BUT 2x4 or 2x5 increases efficiency of your stratagems (namely Stooping Dive).

I'd go with 2. Keep the Jetbikes as a counter force and nail him with an out of sequence charge if he gets close. Ideally, make both Telemons full guns and have the Bikes protect them.

Either way, you are going to lose board control, so you better play to table.

So what's everyone's opinion on the Coronus? Seems like a good option for people who don't have money/points to drop on an Orion and it's fast and mobile enough to get your guys a turn 2 charge without relying on an unreliable 9" charge from deep strike. It also offers decent firepower and at T8, 18W, and a 3+/5++ it's gonna take a lot of AT firepower to take it out turn 1 (shooting that isn't going into your Caladius or Telemon).

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
So what's everyone's opinion on the Coronus? Seems like a good option for people who don't have money/points to drop on an Orion and it's fast and mobile enough to get your guys a turn 2 charge without relying on an unreliable 9" charge from deep strike. It also offers decent firepower and at T8, 18W, and a 3+/5++ it's gonna take a lot of AT firepower to take it out turn 1 (shooting that isn't going into your Caladius or Telemon).

370 points iirc is a lot to transport just 6 models. I like that it’s T8 with 18 wounds but I don’t think I’ll be using one. I just don’t see where we’re supposed to get the points to fit one in. Would probably be handy though against SM now they have drop pods, grav weapons, and dirt cheap storm shields back on the menu.

yeah coronus is just too expensive.

Considering that when it crash's every one is another 50pt+ model dead and you can see why its not as liked.

It is amazing in 30k games though, where it is cheaper and just as deadly as the calidius almost.

They did make it fairly durable, but if I take a transport for custodies, it'll be the orion as that will almost assuredly survive turn 1 to drop off 10 models in the opponents face.

Malefic666 wrote:

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
So what's everyone's opinion on the Coronus? Seems like a good option for people who don't have money/points to drop on an Orion and it's fast and mobile enough to get your guys a turn 2 charge without relying on an unreliable 9" charge from deep strike. It also offers decent firepower and at T8, 18W, and a 3+/5++ it's gonna take a lot of AT firepower to take it out turn 1 (shooting that isn't going into your Caladius or Telemon).

370 points iirc is a lot to transport just 6 models. I like that it’s T8 with 18 wounds but I don’t think I’ll be using one. I just don’t see where we’re supposed to get the points to fit one in. Would probably be handy though against SM now they have drop pods, grav weapons, and dirt cheap storm shields back on the menu.

It's 245 pts, which I think is fairly reasonable for what you're getting, but you're right, Custodes have a lot of good units and it's tough to make room to bring everything you want. I do agree though, with SM getting new tricks and increased firepower I can see the Coronus being more useful to protect our footslogging troops. For me I see the appeal in it as a way for our infantry to get off easier charges as opposed to relying on getting the 9" charge from deep strike.

So i ran the twin telemon list against a Guilliman Castle yesterday. Happy to report the list performed very well. A solid victory for the golden boys!

 Grundz wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

However I hold out slim hopes that GW will somehow fix the problem they have recently created where the NuMarines are basically better at assaulting then the GodMarines.

I mean, there isn't much we can buff without breaking Custodes, but I am seriously stunned by the new buffs to Marines.

Wait is it really that bad, or is it just that marines are almost as good but much cheaper?

It isn’t. There isn’t a marine unit that will outdamage a custodes unit point for point in melee against each other. Some marine units can clear GEQs more cost effective in melee now. Specifically vanvets with double chainsword.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grundz wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
Thing is, d3 damage is still really, really good vs primaris. We have d3 damage in spades, and most primaris shooting wounds on 5s. We might need to re-tool some things though. Their vehicles are still stupidly over-priced, so we're not likely going to need to worry about our anti-tank a ton.

I'm still pushing around points to figure out a list, but it really seems like custodes in cover with -1 to hit are going to come on top vs anything but absolutely withering firepower

While it will, it also will not contribute to the game meaningfully, and so can be ignored safely

Quick question: when you use from golden light they come on a dreadnought and you want to cheat him close to the enemy with vexilla teleport homer, do you use a normal vexillus praetor with the magnifica or do you use one in terminator armor to deepstrike him behind enemy lines (preferably with a group of deepstriking terminators) and hope he survives a turn?

Mr. Funktastic wrote:

Malefic666 wrote:

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
So what's everyone's opinion on the Coronus? Seems like a good option for people who don't have money/points to drop on an Orion and it's fast and mobile enough to get your guys a turn 2 charge without relying on an unreliable 9" charge from deep strike. It also offers decent firepower and at T8, 18W, and a 3+/5++ it's gonna take a lot of AT firepower to take it out turn 1 (shooting that isn't going into your Caladius or Telemon).

370 points iirc is a lot to transport just 6 models. I like that it’s T8 with 18 wounds but I don’t think I’ll be using one. I just don’t see where we’re supposed to get the points to fit one in. Would probably be handy though against SM now they have drop pods, grav weapons, and dirt cheap storm shields back on the menu.

It's 245 pts, which I think is fairly reasonable for what you're getting, but you're right, Custodes have a lot of good units and it's tough to make room to bring everything you want. I do agree though, with SM getting new tricks and increased firepower I can see the Coronus being more useful to protect our footslogging troops. For me I see the appeal in it as a way for our infantry to get off easier charges as opposed to relying on getting the 9" charge from deep strike.

Yeah, 245... I think I added the wrong weapon options. Actually, I've been thinking about this and I think if we put a threatening unit in it then it probably works well. In addition, one of the issues we can run into is that if we want to run a few large deep strike units (i.e. Vexilus Praetor, Wardens, Trajan, Aquillons) then we end up not being able to have the PL or pts to deep strike anything else, like a Telemon.

If we take the Coronus and then say 5 Guardians with Pyrithite Spears with a Shield Captain then we get a unit that can seriously threaten armour, with a 14" move the Coronus should get them within melta range quickly. I personally find Knight and mech lists tough to beat so this could help.

Plus the Coronus is T8 with W18 & 3+/5++ so if your opponent wants it dead it will take a serious amount of firepower, leaving your Calidius free to shoot away.

I think if I run rusty 17 for CPs then I can rationalise taking Pyrithite spears, then yeah a Coronus totally makes sense...

Had a bit of laugh this Saturday. Was accused by two separate people of "Net listing" the tournament list I used. (Was my standard Loyal 32/Krast Crusader/Custodes.) They claimed that I was bandwagoning the Custodes.

Won the tournament but man their were a BUNCH of salty people this time.

That’s sad, lol it’s a tournament - some people are just poor losers. What did they have?

Thing is. Take a 100% Custodes list and the beta stuff isn’t really that OP. Take a loyal 32 & a Knight & then 3 x Caladius & SC and that’s a full on tournament list. But what GW will do is nerf Custodes when they should be toning down soup lists. But they won’t tone down soup because everyone imperial brings loyal 32/rusty 17 & cheapest you’re buying them for is £60/$80+.

I don't know about anyone else, but I would need a shower after using that list. It's too OP lol.

Right now I am experimenting with Two Telemons, 3x guardians, Trajan, a Bike Captain, Flag, and a BN of Phobos CPTs and 3x squads of Intercessors with Stalkers.

2k points with 2 out of 3 squads using misers. What I want is a campy base with my SM BN keeping the heat off my Telemons, while my Guardians go out and find targets/objectives.

So far I'm 1 out of 3 matchs, all Eldar.

Malefic666 wrote:
That’s sad, lol it’s a tournament - some people are just poor losers. What did they have?

Thing is. Take a 100% Custodes list and the beta stuff isn’t really that OP. Take a loyal 32 & a Knight & then 3 x Caladius & SC and that’s a full on tournament list. But what GW will do is nerf Custodes when they should be toning down soup lists. But they won’t tone down soup because everyone imperial brings loyal 32/rusty 17 & cheapest you’re buying them for is £60/$80+.

I went vs 2 tau lists and a 1k sons.

Big thing was I went first every game.... And none of the tau lists thought to hide their drones out of sight so I chewed them up first round both times then started ripping into their Tides.

The 1k sons was 2 units of 20 rubrics a unit of 10 scarbs. 2 rhinos 1 Landraider, Arhiman and a bunch of sorcerers/psykers. And he deployed all of those terminators in the open.

Needless to say I probably did bring an op list to the tournement but last time in the same venue there was a triple knight list with lots of plaguebearers, a much better tau player, and a castelean list.

The last tau player I played had just gone to the GT in Texas and did very poorly to my understanding.

Well congrats on the win. Tau are never an easy opponent for Custodes. Sounds like they made serious errors in their deployment and that cost them.

I’m assuming you ran loyal 32, knight, triple caladius?

Malefic666 wrote:
Well congrats on the win. Tau are never an easy opponent for Custodes. Sounds like they made serious errors in their deployment and that cost them.

I’m assuming you ran loyal 32, knight, triple caladius?

Full list was

Loyal 32

2 Armiger Warglaives
1 Krast Crusader

Jetbike shield captain
2 Pallus
3 Caladius

Wow, you didn't even take the vexilla and tau player couldn't take out your caladius?

That's just bad luck/play from them. -1 to hit is one of the best things we have againgst tau and you didn't even take it. lmao

Malefic666 wrote:

Mr. Funktastic wrote:

Malefic666 wrote:

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
So what's everyone's opinion on the Coronus? Seems like a good option for people who don't have money/points to drop on an Orion and it's fast and mobile enough to get your guys a turn 2 charge without relying on an unreliable 9" charge from deep strike. It also offers decent firepower and at T8, 18W, and a 3+/5++ it's gonna take a lot of AT firepower to take it out turn 1 (shooting that isn't going into your Caladius or Telemon).

370 points iirc is a lot to transport just 6 models. I like that it’s T8 with 18 wounds but I don’t think I’ll be using one. I just don’t see where we’re supposed to get the points to fit one in. Would probably be handy though against SM now they have drop pods, grav weapons, and dirt cheap storm shields back on the menu.

It's 245 pts, which I think is fairly reasonable for what you're getting, but you're right, Custodes have a lot of good units and it's tough to make room to bring everything you want. I do agree though, with SM getting new tricks and increased firepower I can see the Coronus being more useful to protect our footslogging troops. For me I see the appeal in it as a way for our infantry to get off easier charges as opposed to relying on getting the 9" charge from deep strike.

Yeah, 245... I think I added the wrong weapon options. Actually, I've been thinking about this and I think if we put a threatening unit in it then it probably works well. In addition, one of the issues we can run into is that if we want to run a few large deep strike units (i.e. Vexilus Praetor, Wardens, Trajan, Aquillons) then we end up not being able to have the PL or pts to deep strike anything else, like a Telemon.

If we take the Coronus and then say 5 Guardians with Pyrithite Spears with a Shield Captain then we get a unit that can seriously threaten armour, with a 14" move the Coronus should get them within melta range quickly. I personally find Knight and mech lists tough to beat so this could help.

Plus the Coronus is T8 with W18 & 3+/5++ so if your opponent wants it dead it will take a serious amount of firepower, leaving your Calidius free to shoot away.

I think if I run rusty 17 for CPs then I can rationalise taking Pyrithite spears, then yeah a Coronus totally makes sense...

Personally I think putting a squad of either 6 Aquilons with Power Gauntlets or 3 Aquilons and 3 Allarus so you can get charges off with all of them and have Allarus deny overwatch. Also the issue with having too many things in deep strike is not having enough board presence early which your opponent can take advantage of.

Malefic666 wrote:
That’s sad, lol it’s a tournament - some people are just poor losers. What did they have?

Thing is. Take a 100% Custodes list and the beta stuff isn’t really that OP. Take a loyal 32 & a Knight & then 3 x Caladius & SC and that’s a full on tournament list. But what GW will do is nerf Custodes when they should be toning down soup lists. But they won’t tone down soup because everyone imperial brings loyal 32/rusty 17 & cheapest you’re buying them for is £60/$80+.

I'm hoping that when the bat hits custodes, it falls solidly on the calladius and spares my precious bikers

stratigo wrote:

Malefic666 wrote:
That’s sad, lol it’s a tournament - some people are just poor losers. What did they have?

Thing is. Take a 100% Custodes list and the beta stuff isn’t really that OP. Take a loyal 32 & a Knight & then 3 x Caladius & SC and that’s a full on tournament list. But what GW will do is nerf Custodes when they should be toning down soup lists. But they won’t tone down soup because everyone imperial brings loyal 32/rusty 17 & cheapest you’re buying them for is £60/$80+.

I'm hoping that when the bat hits custodes, it falls solidly on the calladius and spares my precious bikers

Bikers still show up in top 4's but it's WAY less common. Like 1 every couple of months. Probably safe!

stratigo wrote:

Malefic666 wrote:
That’s sad, lol it’s a tournament - some people are just poor losers. What did they have?

Thing is. Take a 100% Custodes list and the beta stuff isn’t really that OP. Take a loyal 32 & a Knight & then 3 x Caladius & SC and that’s a full on tournament list. But what GW will do is nerf Custodes when they should be toning down soup lists. But they won’t tone down soup because everyone imperial brings loyal 32/rusty 17 & cheapest you’re buying them for is £60/$80+.

I'm hoping that when the bat hits custodes, it falls solidly on the calladius and spares my precious bikers

I’m hoping, in vain, that GW have to the good sense to realise that letting players cherry pick soup detachments with no down sides is actually the issue. I’d be happier to see a series of bonuses to mono factions, say +3/5CP or a new army special rule for each.

You mean like the exact thing they’ve started phasing in with the new Marine Codex?

I would love seeing the other sub factions of the Custodes get special benefits.

Also, please nerf the Callidus/Telemon, drop Trajan's cost by 20pts, maybe drop the cost of troops by 5/10pts each, and give Bikers a better anti-tank stat-line.

Respectfully. i think the telemon is at a pretty good place.
I think the grav tanks need to go up about 30-40 points to be close to reasonable.
Dropping Trajan and troops costs slightly would be welcome, sure.

I also think telemons are in a good spot. They're very shooty and durable but they suffer from the same weakness as nearly all tanks/dreads in that they can be tied up by 40 points of guardsmen and effectively removed from the game.

The same cannot be said for the caladius.

I dunno. I think the Telemon "is in a good place..." for people who like to run it in tournaments and dominate local FLGSs.

Otherwise, it's another meta toy that raises the ceiling further and further towards Knights or GTFO. For the cost, you are getting something that completely eclipses other like costed units.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think the Telemon "is in a good place..." for people who like to run it in tournaments.

Can't argue with that. Thing is, in tournaments telemons are just OK. They're decent but not overly represented and nerfing them would be removing a perfectly valid option for tournament-level play.

It's been great seeing non-biker spam lists placing highly at events. In fact, just this weekend a pure footstodes list took 2nd at a GT with nearly 1000 points invested in 2 beefy units of aquilon terminators. Not a single caladius, telemon, or vertus praetor in the list.

Basically, if you want to play Custodes, you have to go FW, with the lone exception of Trajan and the Flag bearer. Our troops cost too much to make their cost back, our terminators cost too much to even be a consideration, and our non-FW units are hot garbage (when was the last time someone honestly took a Venerable Landraider or Naught) and our Bikes are considered "that guy".

We are either TFG for being Soupy, or we are TFG for being Mr. FW. There is no inbetween for Custodes.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Basically, if you want to play Custodes, you have to go FW, with the lone exception of Trajan and the Flag bearer. Our troops cost too much to make their cost back, our terminators cost too much to even be a consideration, and our non-FW units are hot garbage (when was the last time someone honestly took a Venerable Landraider or Naught) and our Bikes are considered "that guy".

We are either TFG for being Soupy, or we are TFG for being Mr. FW. There is no inbetween for Custodes.

Tournament players don't see you as TFG! Embrace CompHammer!

Nothing wrong with taking bikes. Actually bikes haven't been meta for a long time because they can't deal with knights. Not just knights, but they can't deal with any sort of vehicle-based list whatsoever. Even discolords and wave serpents have nothing to fear from bikes.

Also that footstodes list I mentioned has a pure Custodes battalion in addition to the 1000 pts of aquilons, so apparently Custodes troops are just fine.

EDIT: Actually the whole list was just a single battalion. Trajann, a bike captain, 3 units of custodian guard, 2 units of aquilons, and a vexillus praetor. Took 2nd place at "Canada's largest Warhammer 40k event". Only outscored by Jim Vesal's daemons list. Man what a beastly list. 2000 points of just 23 infantry and a bike-captain. The only FW units are the terminators. There you go. No more excuses

 slave.entity wrote:
Nothing wrong with taking bikes. Actually bikes haven't been meta for a long time because they can't deal with knights. Not just knights, but they can't deal with any sort of vehicle-based list whatsoever. Even discolords and wave serpents have nothing to fear from bikes.

Also that footstodes list I mentioned has a pure Custodes battalion in addition to the 1000 pts of aquilons, so apparently Custodes troops are just fine.

Just because it placed well once doesn't mean they're 'fine'. We have zero clue what the terrain on those tables was and that's a huge factor. We also don't know if they ran unmodified ITC missions. Someone with a subscription to BCP can at least make sure he didn't get a lucky bracket.

When the Warden Custodes list did well, it was also only on one occasion and specifically exploited a terrain piece on the table. The tables at that tournament all had one very large, LoS blocking L in the center. The Wardens would go in there and deny a huge, central nexus of the board. That won't work on a table with a more open center or a terrain piece with, say, windows. Point being, it's not always a transferable concept and you can bet competitive tournament players prepare for the type of terrain they expect to see at the tournament.

Also, Jetbikes deal with vehicle lists just fine. S6, re-rolling fails tanks most vehicles pretty hard. They're also a natural bane to flyer lists because they can charge and melee flyers. You never saw them much, even when they were supposedly 'popular' (before FW rules came out). Shane Watts did well with them at NOVA, but he still placed worse than the much more popular variant: jamming 3 Shield-Captains on Jetbikes into a list of Astra Militarum and a Castellan Knight.

Knights are a problem for Jetbike spam lists, no doubt, but one bad matchup doesn't disqualify you.

Wait, S6 takes T7/8 "just fine? How? Hits on 2s, wounds on a 5? Nothing about that screams "look out here I come!"




EDIT:So.....I just learned you can place a Vexhilla Banner IN a unit of Custodian guard. I ALWAYS thought it was a separate unit. Independent Character. Are there other units you can slide it into, or just Custodian guard??

I wouldn't expect bikes to be good against the current 7+ eldar flyer lists that are currently meta if only because at best your two units of bikes can charge two flyers while the others simply move to the other side of the map and shoot them apart. And they could easily have a hard time getting a T1 charge too which means a bunch of them will simply be dead before they even have the chance to charge a plane.

Bikes are good and bike spam is a very "pub-stomp" style list, but they're certainly not TFG competitive compared to the caladius or loyal 32. And taking any sort of super spammy list to a casual game is a pretty silly thing to do anyway so I wouldn't expect to see it much in pick-up games. It's just very one-dimensional. Unlike the actual competitive Custodes lists we're seeing at the moment. No one spams bikes anymore because it doesn't work and probably because it's pretty boring to play.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wait, S6 takes T7/8 "just fine? How? Hits on 2s, wounds on a 5?

They re-roll failed wounds on the charge, remember? Which gives each hit a 55% chance to wound. And every wound that does get through is AP-3, D3 damage. Not as good as aquilons or fist Telemon, but still decent.
8 bikes with no aura will do 24.4 wounds on average to a Knight with no CC invul save. Not the best; but the bigger issue is that knights have the ideal ranged and CC weapons to kill bikes efficiently.

On the topic of nerfs, a really great way to change the Caladius would be be to make it only available to pure Custodes armies (since it’s a rare relic and all that). Could do the same for other FW units as well.

People haven't even taken bikes in top placing lists for months now. It's all triple caladius spearhead for the most part. Every once in a while you'll see some aquilons or maybe a single telemon, but rarely actual units of vertus praetors. Even the supreme command of 3 shield-captains has fallen out of favor lately. I can't remember the last time I saw one of those, wow.

Ever since Geoff Robinson won BAO competitive Custodes players pretty much ditched bikes in favor of grav tanks, dreadnoughts, and terminators. May he rest in peace.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wait, S6 takes T7/8 "just fine? How? Hits on 2s, wounds on a 5? Nothing about that screams "look out here I come!"




EDIT:So.....I just learned you can place a Vexhilla Banner IN a unit of Custodian guard. I ALWAYS thought it was a separate unit. Independent Character. Are there other units you can slide it into, or just Custodian guard??

Independent Character is 7th Edition, not 8th. You can't put a Vexilla into a squad.

Jetbikes re-roll failed wounds on the charge and are AP-3. Against a standard T7 3+ vehicle, 3 Jetbikes average (assuming Captain for re-roll 1's to Hit) 10.81 wounds. They body most vehicles pretty solidly (even Tank Commanders only have 12 wounds). They one-shot most Eldar flyers.

Sterling191 wrote:
You mean like the exact thing they’ve started phasing in with the new Marine Codex?

Yes exactly. That’s what I was thinking of, it’s great Marines have an incentive to play mono but this should happen for all factions ASAP.

 slave.entity wrote:
I wouldn't expect bikes to be good against the current 7+ eldar flyer lists that are currently meta if only because at best your two units of bikes can charge two flyers while the others simply move to the other side of the map and shoot them apart. And they could easily have a hard time getting a T1 charge too which means a bunch of them will simply be dead before they even have the chance to charge a plane.

Bikes are good and bike spam is a very "pub-stomp" style list, but they're certainly not TFG competitive compared to the caladius or loyal 32. And taking any sort of super spammy list to a casual game is a pretty silly thing to do anyway so I wouldn't expect to see it much in pick-up games. It's just very one-dimensional. Unlike the actual competitive Custodes lists we're seeing at the moment. No one spams bikes anymore because it doesn't work and probably because it's pretty boring to play.

Okay, a lot to unpack here.

1. Lots of Jetbike lists take 3 squads, not 2. 2 is also common though. You'd see both.

2. Most Eldar flyers don't have fantastic volume of fire on their big guns. A Crimson Hunter Exarch gets 2 Bright Lance shots and 2 Pulsar shots per-turn. That's it. You're supposed to use terrain to get close to them (meaning they have to get closer to you than they want to if they want to draw line of sight). Even if you take fire, the CHE only averages 2.28 damage from both Bright Lances combined (with a whopping 46% chance of doing 0 damage) and 1.94 from the Pulse Laser (also with a 46% chance of doing 0). The end result is that a sing CHE only has about a 50% chance of killing a single Jetbike model (so using a 175 point model to kill a 90 point model) if it dedicates the entirety of its shooting). FYI, that is if there is no Vexilla. You put in a Vexilla and one CHE can't even kill one Jetbike on average.

That said, the Razorwing Jetfighter (what you frequently see besides the CHE) doesn't have Wings of Kaine so you can also abuse his comparative lack of pivots to get close.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 greyknight12 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wait, S6 takes T7/8 "just fine? How? Hits on 2s, wounds on a 5?

They re-roll failed wounds on the charge, remember? Which gives each hit a 55% chance to wound. And every wound that does get through is AP-3, D3 damage. Not as good as aquilons or fist Telemon, but still decent.
8 bikes with no aura will do 24.4 wounds on average to a Knight with no CC invul save. Not the best; but the bigger issue is that knights have the ideal ranged and CC weapons to kill bikes efficiently.

On the topic of nerfs, a really great way to change the Caladius would be be to make it only available to pure Custodes armies (since it’s a rare relic and all that). Could do the same for other FW units as well.

Right, I was going to add that. Knights are the only vehicle class that's a huge problem for Jetbikes because of their exact tools. They have enough ranged to weaken the squad when it's incoming and Stomp is actually REALLY painful if the Knight gets to fight first (and with his comparative movement, it's definitely possible).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 slave.entity wrote:
People haven't even taken bikes in top placing lists for months now. It's all triple caladius spearhead for the most part. Every once in a while you'll see some aquilons or maybe a single telemon, but rarely actual units of vertus praetors. Even the supreme command of 3 shield-captains has fallen out of favor lately. I can't remember the last time I saw one of those, wow.

Ever since Geoff Robinson won BAO competitive Custodes players pretty much ditched bikes in favor of grav tanks, dreadnoughts, and terminators. May he rest in peace.

This is wrong. Jetbikes placed top 4 just recently. I'll go get it and edit it in.

EDIT: Bridger Hahn took 2nd Place at the GK Open with this list:

++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) [54 PL, 980pts] ++

+ HQ +
Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 160pts]: Hurricane Bolter . Auric Aquilis

+ Fast Attack +
Pallas Grav-Attack (Beta) [5 PL, 100pts]: Twin Arachnus Blaze Cannon

Vertus Praetors [20 PL, 360pts]
. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter
. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter
. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter
. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter

Vertus Praetors [20 PL, 360pts]
. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter
. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter
. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter
. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) [46 PL, -2CP, 1,020pts] ++
Operative Requisition Sanctioned [-2CP, 85pts]

+ HQ +
Constantine Valdor [10 PL, 185pts]

+ Elites +
Vexillus Praetor [6 PL, 120pts]: Storm Shield, Vexilla Magnifica, Warlord

+ Heavy Support +
Caladius Grav-tank (Beta) [10 PL, 210pts]: Twin Illiastus Accelerator Cannon, Twin Lastrum Bolt Cannon
Caladius Grav-tank (Beta) [10 PL, 210pts]: Twin Illiastus Accelerator Cannon, Twin Lastrum Bolt Cannon
Caladius Grav-tank (Beta) [10 PL, 210pts]: Twin Illiastus Accelerator Cannon, Twin Lastrum Bolt Cannon

++ Total: [100 PL, -2CP, 2,000pts] ++

Audustum wrote:
The end result is that a sing CHE only has about a 50% chance of killing a single Jetbike model (so using a 175 point model to kill a 90 point model) if it dedicates the entirety of its shooting).

Did you remember to factor in jinx as well the CHE's re-roll 1s to hit/re-roll wounds against fly? My math is showing me that a single CHE kills ~1.5 bikes on average. Also, competitive CHE's don't take bright lances, they take starcannons.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wait, S6 takes T7/8 "just fine? How? Hits on 2s, wounds on a 5? Nothing about that screams "look out here I come!"




EDIT:So.....I just learned you can place a Vexhilla Banner IN a unit of Custodian guard. I ALWAYS thought it was a separate unit. Independent Character. Are there other units you can slide it into, or just Custodian guard??

Wait...we can what now? I don't understand.

 slave.entity wrote:

Audustum wrote:
The end result is that a sing CHE only has about a 50% chance of killing a single Jetbike model (so using a 175 point model to kill a 90 point model) if it dedicates the entirety of its shooting).

Did you remember to factor in jinx as well the CHE's re-roll 1s to hit/re-roll wounds against fly? My math is showing me that a single CHE kills ~1.5 bikes on average.

You shouldn't be getting jinxed. CHE are not casters like their Hemlock brethren. Jinx only has a 18" range. Your Operative Request Sanctioned Culexus should be zoning that away or you should be chasing the flyers far enough from their psyker support (remember, they have large minimum moves) to keep yourself out of it one way or the other (if the Eldar is sloppy he might also get within 12" for you to 1CP Deny it).

I did include the re-roll 1's on the CHE. I did forget the Fly wounds. I'll add that in a sec.

See my edit. CHE's take don't take bright lances, they take starcannons.

The bikes will definitely be getting jinxed because one of those 7-9 flyers will be a hemlock. And don't forget that CHE's have built-in doom against fly keyword so their S6 starcannons (and S8 pulse lasers of course) re-roll all failed wounds for free.

Anyway, on average 3 CHE's does about 17-18 damage to a unit of bikes so with slightly above average rolls that kills one of those 4-man biker units in a single turn. And if the bikes aren't in range of a T1 charge which is probable, they're going to have to weather two turns of CHE shooting.


EDIT: Also, interesting that the one high placing custodes list you found that used bikes (in a sea of caladius spearheads from the past few months) apparently lost 1st place... to an eldar list with 3 CHEs

 iGuy91 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wait, S6 takes T7/8 "just fine? How? Hits on 2s, wounds on a 5? Nothing about that screams "look out here I come!"




EDIT:So.....I just learned you can place a Vexhilla Banner IN a unit of Custodian guard. I ALWAYS thought it was a separate unit. Independent Character. Are there other units you can slide it into, or just Custodian guard??

Wait...we can what now? I don't understand.

Sorry, I appear to be mistaken (?). My friend sent me a pic of a rule that shows guardian squads get +1 attack if they take the vexhilla in the squad. I am at work and haven't looked at my codex in over a year, and thought I had just MISSED this rule. Apparently it's 30k?

I'd also like to add, speaking completely anecdotally as an eldar player who runs a CHE air wing... yeah CHE's wreck custodes bikes lol. I know bikes seem like a good counter to eldar flyers on paper but in practice they don't have the mobility to keep up. Not that bikes are bad. But in the current competitive meta they're not particularly amazing. They're solid picks for sure though.

Also, I don't run a hemlock alongside my CHE's but even without a hemlock I have absolutely no trouble jinxing a biker unit with a warlock skyrunner's 22" move. Especially since the bikes are forced to deploy aggressively if they want to even have a remote chance of making it into charge range.

 slave.entity wrote:
See my edit. CHE's take don't take bright lances, they take starcannons.

The bikes will definitely be getting jinxed because one of those 7-9 flyers will be a hemlock. And don't forget that CHE's have built-in doom against fly keyword so their S6 starcannons (and S8 pulse lasers of course) re-roll all failed wounds for free.

Anyway, on average 3 CHE's does about 17-18 damage to a unit of bikes so with slightly above average rolls that kills one of those 4-man biker units in a single turn. And if the bikes aren't in range of a T1 charge which is probable, they're going to have to weather two turns of CHE shooting.

Alright, there's some issues with this.

1. CHE take both, but alright, we'll factor in the Starcannons too.

2. Most lists don't take 7-9 flyers anymore. That hasn't been a prevalent thing for ages. It's 3-6. Hemlocks are starting to appear, but I only found 2 lists in the last 3 months that made top 4 at a GT with Hemlocks (about as common as seeing Void Raven Bombers). It's not something you should really expect. As I said, you really shouldn't be getting jinxed.

3. Strictly speaking, Starcannons are about a wash against Jetbikes compared to Bright Lances.

Anyway, math to prove the point:

1 CHE with Starcannons against 1 squad of Vertus Praetors:
Starcannons: 2.92 (16% chance of 0 damage, 64% chance of 3 damage or less). Less than half the time the Starcannons kill a single model (and yes, that includes the re-rolls to Wound).
Pulse Laser: 1.73 (32% chance of 0 damage, 66% chance of 3 or less). Same here.

So the average is a hair over a single model of (and you just used 161 points to kill 90 points), but about 1/3 of the time the Eldar player won't even kill a single Jetbike.

1 CHE with Bright Lances against 1Squad of Vertus Praetors:
Bright Lances: 3.02 (32% chance of 0 damage, 58% chance of 3 damage or less).
Pulse Laser: 1.73 (32% chance of 0 damage, 66% chance of 3 or less). Same here.

Looks about the same. We're only talking the difference of .1 wounds average.

1 CHE with Starcannons against 1 squad of Vertus Praetors with Vexilla:
Starcannons: 2.33 (25% chance of 0 damage, 73% chance of 3 or less damage)
Pulse Laser: 1.38 (43% chance of 0 damage, 92% chance of 3 or less damage)

Doesn't even kill a model on average, huge chance of whiffing.

1 CHE with Bright Lances against 1Squad of Vertus Praetors:
Bright Lances: 2.43 (43% chance of 0 damage, 67% chance of 3 damage or less).
Pulse Laser: 1.73 (32% chance of 0 damage, 66% chance of 3 or less).

As expected, about the same.

If you multiply all that by three:

The Starcannon loadout averages 13.95 damage to a Jetbike squad, with a solid chance of leaving a survivor due to the volatility (high chances of 0 damage) and because wounds don't spill over. That is without a Vexilla. You also just spent 483 points against 270 and may have only gotten 180.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wait, S6 takes T7/8 "just fine? How? Hits on 2s, wounds on a 5? Nothing about that screams "look out here I come!"




EDIT:So.....I just learned you can place a Vexhilla Banner IN a unit of Custodian guard. I ALWAYS thought it was a separate unit. Independent Character. Are there other units you can slide it into, or just Custodian guard??

Wait...we can what now? I don't understand.

Sorry, I appear to be mistaken (?). My friend sent me a pic of a rule that shows guardian squads get +1 attack if they take the vexhilla in the squad. I am at work and haven't looked at my codex in over a year, and thought I had just MISSED this rule. Apparently it's 30k?

It's 7th Edition and 30k. Take your pick.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 slave.entity wrote:
I'd also like to add, speaking completely anecdotally as an eldar player who runs a CHE air wing... yeah CHE's wreck custodes bikes lol. I know bikes seem like a good counter to eldar flyers on paper but in practice they don't have the mobility to keep up. Not that bikes are bad. But in the current competitive meta they're not particularly amazing. They're solid picks for sure though.

Also, I don't run a hemlock alongside my CHE's but even without a hemlock I have absolutely no trouble jinxing a biker unit with a warlock skyrunner's 22" move. Especially since the bikes are forced to deploy aggressively if they want to even have a remote chance of making it into charge range.

Then you're playing bad Jetbike opponents I'd say. Flyers don't have the firepower alone to put them down without getting bodied unless you happen to be spamming Hemlocks. The Warlock should be forced into the Culexus aura and potentially Deny the Witch (and the Custodes Deny the Witch strat is unaffected by the Culexus aura, meaning they effectively get +2 over the Warlock on the roll).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 slave.entity wrote:
See my edit. CHE's take don't take bright lances, they take starcannons.

The bikes will definitely be getting jinxed because one of those 7-9 flyers will be a hemlock. And don't forget that CHE's have built-in doom against fly keyword so their S6 starcannons (and S8 pulse lasers of course) re-roll all failed wounds for free.

Anyway, on average 3 CHE's does about 17-18 damage to a unit of bikes so with slightly above average rolls that kills one of those 4-man biker units in a single turn. And if the bikes aren't in range of a T1 charge which is probable, they're going to have to weather two turns of CHE shooting.


EDIT: Also, interesting that the one high placing custodes list you found that used bikes (in a sea of caladius spearheads from the past few months) apparently lost 1st place... to an eldar list with 3 CHEs

My point wasn't that Jetbike tournament lists are everywhere, it was to directly counter your statement that they haven't been seen in months. I even said in this very thread that when they were at their most popular they still weren't actually that common (for other reasons than Eldar flyers though).

Any more examples of jetbike spam placing highly in the past few months though? Because I could easily point to a ton of triple caladius lists. Even the one you posted included triple caladius. And even that list lost to a CHE air wing.

None of this seems to contradict the fact that bikes are no longer the de facto competitive Custodes unit and the fact that bikes don't really work well against eldar flyer spam.

Have you ever actually fielded custodes bikes against a CHE air wing? There's really not much they can do against a unit that can simply fly 60" across the map and shoot them with free re-roll wounds for the entire game.

 slave.entity wrote:
Any more examples of jetbike spam placing highly in the past few months though? Because I could easily point to a ton of triple caladius lists. Even the one you posted included triple caladius. And even that list lost to a CHE air wing.

None of this seems to contradict the fact that bikes are no longer the de facto competitive Custodes unit and the fact that bikes don't really work well against eldar flyer spam.

Have you ever actually fielded custodes bikes against a CHE air wing?

Uh, goalposts much? I didn't say Jetbikes were the de facto competitive. I actually said they were never that popular even in their prime (twice already). I've also never said Caladius lists weren't good or weren't everywhere? I actually didn't comment on the Caladius lists at all (which are great and are super strong). I'm saying the Jetbikes should be fine against Eldar flyer spam and are 'competitive' lists even if they aren't dominating like some others are. Nothing has a 100% win rate (even Nick Nanavati )

Have you ever actually fielded custodes bikes against a CHE air wing? There's really not much they can do against a unit that can simply fly 60" across the map and shoot them with free re-roll wounds for the entire game.

Sure, on planet bowling ball. Like I said, to get LoS on standard terrain (like NOVA's, which you can find an example of in their primer) they do need to endanger themselves.

You didn't even factor in CHE starcannons or re-roll wounds against fly keyword dude. If you're going to make posts telling me I'm wrong about stuff, at least try to make it convincing.

 slave.entity wrote:
You didn't even factor in CHE starcannons or re-roll wounds against fly keyword dude. If you're going to make posts telling me I'm wrong about stuff, at least try to make it convincing.

I did factor it in? All of that math in the latest post assumes re-rolls to Wound. I also did a separate post including all the starcannons, clearly labelled, just for you.

I mean yeah you factored it in after I explained how competitive flyer lists work... anyway... moving on...

I regret getting wrapped up in this...

 slave.entity wrote:
I mean yeah you factored it in after I explained how competitive flyer lists work... anyway... moving on...

I regret getting wrapped up in this...

Not quite. The re-roll wounds was just because I was multi-tasking too heavily (mea culpa). Bright Lances are also very prevalent in Eldar flyer lists. You asked for Starcannons so I gave them to you though.

What we should really do now is put our collective brainpower together and try to figure out how exactly that footstodes list took 2nd at CCBB with 1000 points of firepike Aquilons.

My guess is he teleported both squads? But that's roughly 40 autohits at S6 AP1 D1. Enough to mulch a bunch of obsec troops I guess. And have them replaced with your own, impossible to remove, objective-holding golden god terminators.

Meanwhile the 3 units of custodian guard are probably sitting on objectives near their deployment zone while providing fire support for the midfield?

I'm really tempted to expand my custodes collection to field this list now.

Were they actually all with firepikes? I guess that helps vs flyers. But i thought inside 12 the bolters were technically a slightly more consistent (and cheaper) option.

 slave.entity wrote:
What we should really do now is put our collective brainpower together and try to figure out how exactly that footstodes list took 2nd at CCBB with 1000 points of firepike Aquilons.

My guess is he teleported both squads? But that's roughly 40 autohits at S6 AP1 D1. Enough to mulch a bunch of obsec troops I guess. And have them replaced with your own, impossible to remove, objective-holding golden god terminators.

Meanwhile the 3 units of custodian guard are probably sitting on objectives near their deployment zone while providing fire support for the midfield?

I'm really tempted to expand my custodes collection to field this list now.

It might be similar to the Warden list. Drop a squad in LoS blocking terrain (like a magic box) and use it to zone out. Another squad can go backfield.

With that list, he's also denying "kill more" fairly reliably.

It was a unit of 5 and a unit of 6 aquilons, all firepikes. It is a buttload of shots and if he really teleported both units in then he seems to have a pretty good chance of just flat out wiping the opponent's obsec units off a midfield or backfield point. After that, you have a 44 wounds of T5/2+/4++ which almost feels like DE grotesque-level durability but with 12" flamers. It'd be an extremely difficult pair of units to shift. Fat units of Aquilons is so dope, I love it.

 iGuy91 wrote:
Were they actually all with firepikes? I guess that helps vs flyers. But i thought inside 12 the bolters were technically a slightly more consistent (and cheaper) option.

If I remember right, the Bolters are basically equal to the Pikes except on Overwatch and against T10-T11. The math is somewhere in this thread. If he's expecting lots of penalties to Hit, could be another reason.

Oh yeah, denying kill more is also huge. Forgot about that. This is the hyper elite, custodes infantry list of our dreams guys, complete with fat units of teleporting golden terminators and none of that feeble guardsman nonsense dragging us down.

If only the FW models were semi-reasonably priced...

Most people would probably be fine if you ran allarus terminators as aquilons. They're just big terminators.

Although.... aquilons are on 50mm bases and allarus are on 40mm. But your opponent doesn't have to know that

So, I've had exactly 3 people comment on base size in my, admittedly small, experience with 8th and Custodes.

1. Used the matt black bases for my bikes (It comes with the clear and matt black) and he said they were different and I was modelling for advantage

2. I put Trajan on a pre-made base (the one with rubble) that was apparently smaller than his normal base. I have to snap it off and put on his normal one.

3. My terminators - same thing as trajan. Used the cool looking store bought bases, got called out for cheating.

I said he look, if you want to be in melee with Trajan and my terminators, I am more than willing to give you an extra inch and a half for all distance checks. PLEAAAASSE get into melee with me. As a matter of fact, I will give you 50 inches. From now on, Trajan is in melee with your whole army.

People think smaller base sizes are an advantage....

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, I've had exactly 3 people comment on base size in my, admittedly small, experience with 8th and Custodes.

1. Used the matt black bases for my bikes (It comes with the clear and matt black) and he said they were different and I was modelling for advantage

2. I put Trajan on a pre-made base (the one with rubble) that was apparently smaller than his normal base. I have to snap it off and put on his normal one.

3. My terminators - same thing as trajan. Used the cool looking store bought bases, got called out for cheating.

I said he look, if you want to be in melee with Trajan and my terminators, I am more than willing to give you an extra inch and a half for all distance checks. PLEAAAASSE get into melee with me. As a matter of fact, I will give you 50 inches. From now on, Trajan is in melee with your whole army.

People think smaller base sizes are an advantage....

They can be, but not really for Custodes.

For Orks and other hordes, smaller bases mean more rows in Close Combat. For Custodes... Doesn't really matter.

For plaguebearer hordes, the larger 32mm bases are an advantage because it allows them to control so much more ground. But practically speaking yeah base size makes a negligible difference on non-horde infantry. Giving someone a hard time over non-standard Custodes base sizes would be the TFG thing to do in my book. There aren't enough models for it to make a difference.

I just want to play my army and learn how to be a better player. If you are going to complain about base sizes, you aren't trying to play for fun.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I just want to play my army and learn how to be a better player. If you are going to complain about base sizes, you aren't trying to play for fun.

I hear that. I still have an army's worth of necrons still on their original gw-provided bases....too much effort to re-base 6000 points of infantry

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, I've had exactly 3 people comment on base size in my, admittedly small, experience with 8th and Custodes.

1. Used the matt black bases for my bikes (It comes with the clear and matt black) and he said they were different and I was modelling for advantage

2. I put Trajan on a pre-made base (the one with rubble) that was apparently smaller than his normal base. I have to snap it off and put on his normal one.

3. My terminators - same thing as trajan. Used the cool looking store bought bases, got called out for cheating.

I said he look, if you want to be in melee with Trajan and my terminators, I am more than willing to give you an extra inch and a half for all distance checks. PLEAAAASSE get into melee with me. As a matter of fact, I will give you 50 inches. From now on, Trajan is in melee with your whole army.

People think smaller base sizes are an advantage....

Tournament rules are you can use the base it came with usually, so black for Jetbikes should be fine. Hilariously, I used black for my Jetbikes because I didn't want to get accused of using a 'display only' base in the clear ones!

Audustum wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, I've had exactly 3 people comment on base size in my, admittedly small, experience with 8th and Custodes.

1. Used the matt black bases for my bikes (It comes with the clear and matt black) and he said they were different and I was modelling for advantage

2. I put Trajan on a pre-made base (the one with rubble) that was apparently smaller than his normal base. I have to snap it off and put on his normal one.

3. My terminators - same thing as trajan. Used the cool looking store bought bases, got called out for cheating.

I said he look, if you want to be in melee with Trajan and my terminators, I am more than willing to give you an extra inch and a half for all distance checks. PLEAAAASSE get into melee with me. As a matter of fact, I will give you 50 inches. From now on, Trajan is in melee with your whole army.

People think smaller base sizes are an advantage....

Tournament rules are you can use the base it came with usually, so black for Jetbikes should be fine. Hilariously, I used black for my Jetbikes because I didn't want to get accused of using a 'display only' base in the clear ones!

OH CRAP. Why didn't I think of that? I had NO idea why there are two sets of bases, I was really confused. In the end I chose to go with what they had on the box.

Why do they come with both? I've always used the clear ones because they make the bikes look more floaty. Personally not a fan of the extra visual weight that the oval bases add underneath a bike.

I thought honestly one was for painting, and one was for like, you can't see the base, I'm flying...woooooo.

Honestly I wish I could get slightly taller stands. I was trying to make mine pose in a more "swooping dive" style.

Man, my bikes are on the black long-oval bases and if anyone was giving me crap about that I'd go find another player to play. I mean, putting a model on clearly the wrong base is way out of line, but putting a model on the base it comes with (or a base 10mm smaller/bigger) come on!

On the Aquilon route, we can magnetise Terminator arms to fit our Allarus, the arms are about the right size. I say just grab a load of Terminator heavy flamers and power fists/claws and convert away, at least until you can afford to pay £17 per model or until beta has settled. Imagine dropping £204+shipping on 12 models only for the nerf bat to slap them. Even with the pre-Brexit pound crumbling to dust faster than Walter Donovan in Indinia Jones and the Last Crusade it's an awful lot of money.

Re: Aquilons, I prefer the Solerite power gauntlet with the Fire pike, sad that GW/FW doesn't sell that model combo, such as shame imo as it's clearly the best as you threaten troops and high toughness, add Trajann for those sweet reroll 1s to wound and an Allarus Praetor Vexilla Imperius and I think Knights would have issues too if they were charged by that. Not to mention the fun this unit can have with Tanglefoot grenade strat, the 12" range is just perfect really.

Does anybody use the Achillus or the Galatus dread still? I know everyone loves the Telemon, but I rarely see the other two FW dreads being used.
Out of all FW units I think the Galatus dread deserves a small buff, I think he really should hit at least with strength 8.

Also I recently played against my best friends necron army and learned that quantum shielding is hilariously op against an Achillus dread.

I want to like the 2 new dreads, but I'd almost rather just have guardian squads to get CP than take them as they do almost the same thing.

Agreed. Dreads of all types just don’t have enough attacks to justify melee, they need a mechanic to let damage spill over into the unit like the blightlord flail does, or a mode of attack that’s less S but double/triple the attacks.

I would love to see Custodes get some form of shock troops rule..

Hi all. I'm much more a Horus Heresy player and have a big Talons of the Emperor force. I'd like to play a bit more 8th 40k and wondered if you think making a purely codex custodes force is viable for semi competitive or even competitive but not tournament necessarily play?

If so would this be possible without jetbikes? Would like to bring in a few assassins now and then too. Cheers.

 slave.entity wrote:
I wouldn't expect bikes to be good against the current 7+ eldar flyer lists that are currently meta if only because at best your two units of bikes can charge two flyers while the others simply move to the other side of the map and shoot them apart. And they could easily have a hard time getting a T1 charge too which means a bunch of them will simply be dead before they even have the chance to charge a plane.

Bikes are good and bike spam is a very "pub-stomp" style list, but they're certainly not TFG competitive compared to the caladius or loyal 32. And taking any sort of super spammy list to a casual game is a pretty silly thing to do anyway so I wouldn't expect to see it much in pick-up games. It's just very one-dimensional. Unlike the actual competitive Custodes lists we're seeing at the moment. No one spams bikes anymore because it doesn't work and probably because it's pretty boring to play.

I use 20 bikes now.

Goeskan wrote:
Hi all. I'm much more a Horus Heresy player and have a big Talons of the Emperor force. I'd like to play a bit more 8th 40k and wondered if you think making a purely codex custodes force is viable for semi competitive or even competitive but not tournament necessarily play?

If so would this be possible without jetbikes? Would like to bring in a few assassins now and then too. Cheers.

Just last page someone had a list with 1000 points of terminators and did well. Also, right now, the custodes' biggest thing is the caladius grav tanks, however they are probably going to get hit with the nerf bat.
Assassins IMO mesh well with custodes.

Custodes are definitely viable, but to win a tourney you will be relying on matchups.

We just don't stand a chance against certain competitive lists. As long as you don't have to play one of those you can win.


You don't need to take bikes at all. They are very good but are very simplistic. A good opponent will know how to handle them.

Current successful custodes players do well by taking the forgeworld tanks and telemons for crippling long range firepower and by being cautions with the other parts of their army, trying to keep as much alive as possible till turn 3.

As it stands, we lose and lose hard to anything that can spam mortal wounds, anything that has a lot of T8+ units, anything that takes a long time to die, and anything with units that contain more than 10-15 models.

So:
Chaos lists
Daemons lists
Chaos Daemon soup lists
1kSons Exclusively
Deathbringers exclusively
Knights of every flavor
Orks
Guard Conscript spam
Eldar
Dark Eldar
Tau
GK have the ability to be tricky....
And the new Space Marines with all their Mortal wound rifles.


Never played against Nids, I have no idea, but being hordes with Psychic I would assume so.

Thanks all. I have lots of FW due to playing HH, but want to build a basic list that doesn't rely on it as not everyone is cool with FW in pick up games I find.

Will look into codex terminators and wardens then maybe, after bikes theres not much left apart from the contemptor and land raider.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
As it stands, we lose and lose hard to anything that can spam mortal wounds, anything that has a lot of T8+ units, anything that takes a long time to die, and anything with units that contain more than 10-15 models.

So:
Chaos lists
Daemons lists
Chaos Daemon soup lists
1kSons Exclusively
Deathbringers exclusively
Knights of every flavor
Orks
Guard Conscript spam
Eldar
Dark Eldar
Tau
GK have the ability to be tricky....
And the new Space Marines with all their Mortal wound rifles.


Never played against Nids, I have no idea, but being hordes with Psychic I would assume so.

Custodes are super efficient at eliminating hordes....

Nids are good at getting multiple Smites off. They also have psychic scream which is basically a WC5 Smite. I play them regularly and an assassin is mandatory, they usually get off around 4-5 Smites easy.

Malefic666 wrote:
Nids are good at getting multiple Smites off. They also have psychic scream which is basically a WC5 Smite. I play them regularly and an assassin is mandatory, they usually get off around 4-5 Smites easy.

Gonna echo this. They can smash us with mortal wounds spam about effectively as 1kSons.

Just played a game against necrons and tau. Was just a game between friends, but it was hell honestly.
Was just 1000 points and I played a vanguard detatchment with some wardens, a vexillus praetor, a galatus dread and some jetbikes.
Lost all my jetbikes in the first enemy shooting phase and screwed up every single charge even with rerolls.

Just my opinion, but I think custodes need some rule to help them charge. If you play a mostly footslogging infantry list like myself you are just f****d against shooting armies. I know, I know...I could play a couple of caladius tanks or telemons, but I don't want to.
I don't even really care about winning, I just wanna have a good time with my buddies, but I just hate it when you feel like you can't do anything with your stuff during a game.....my jetbikes failed their charge and died. My galatus dread deepstriked behind enemy lines, failed his charge and died.

I know I had some bad luck that game, but beeing that dependent on lucky charge rolls just feels really terrible.

What did your Necron and Tau opponents run?

 slave.entity wrote:
What did your Necron and Tau opponents run?

Necron player had a bunch of destroyers and a big blob of warriors for screening, the tau player just started out an had two squads of fire warriors and 3 crisis battlesuits and a bunch of drones. (Necron and Tau player teamed up, I played 1000points, they played 500points each....main purpose of this was to let the tau player try out his new army)

Necron destroyers with annihilation protocols were the primary problem, those ridiculous rerolls just make them so lethal against any heavy infantry....and my galatus dread for that matter....and my jetbikes. Couldn't get to them because I failed all charges (with rerolls). The only charge I managed to pull of was with the 2 remaining wardens I had in turn 3 against the 3 crisis battlesuits of the tau player and some shield drones...I managed to kill one drone in that fight phase...

In that entire game I managed to kill 4 necron warriors in shooting and 1 tau shield drone in melee and lost almost my entire army after turn 3. Now you can say I am just a bad player. I would not claim to be a good player, but I don't think I made that many major mistakes with the stuff I had. I took advantage of cover as best as I could (we had some line of sight blocking terrain, but not very much) and brought my vexillus with magnifica.

Like I said, I don't mind losing as long as I could play an interesting game, but this was just pure frustration.