_SeeD_ wrote: Have any of you seen someone try to use multiple Vexilla Magnificas to stack -1s to hit? I don't see any RAW that prevents that. It would obviously be a dick move to try that. If it were to be accepted, I'd imagine it would get FAQed.
The same ability does not stack unless explicitly allowed to, like Night Lord's morale fethery.
The closest thing we have to that is putting one next to an Orion, so we can be at the same level as Eldar flyers.
The way its worded totally precludes any stacking anyway. Your opponent must take a -1 to hit for shooting at Custodes units within 6 inches of any Vex Praetors with this banner. Any meaning one or more.
I'm not a Custodes player and I'll probably never will, but I got the Caladius Grav Tank because it's a sexy model and I want to use it alongside my Guard.
What are your tactics, tips, and tricks while fielding this thing?
Thanks!
Hawky wrote: I'm not a Custodes player and I'll probably never will, but I got the Caladius Grav Tank because it's a sexy model and I want to use it alongside my Guard.
What are your tactics, tips, and tricks while fielding this thing?
Thanks!
Use it’s range, it hits pretty hard with a threat range of 74” including move. That said, it also makes a good screening unit because of gravitic backwash. To really take advantage of it though, you need a vexilla Magnificat for -1 to hit, and a shield captain for re-roll 1s to hit (or Trajan for re-roll 1s to hit and wound). And at that point...you might as well take the full Custodes castle spearhead.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So can you take multiple of the same vexhilla in the same detatchment?
If you take a second vexilla you can take advantage of the relic banner's. There is one that is quite deadly in the right situations actually, allowing you to do D3 mortal wounds to every enemy unit within 6" of the vexilla every turn on a 4+ dice roll.
Hawky wrote: I'm not a Custodes player and I'll probably never will, but I got the Caladius Grav Tank because it's a sexy model and I want to use it alongside my Guard.
What are your tactics, tips, and tricks while fielding this thing? Thanks!
An excellent addon detachment to guard from custodies is:
Outrider
Shield captain on dawneagle x2 Vexilla magnifica/w axe 3x pallas grav assaults calidius grav tank
Combine this with a brigade instead of a knight if your tired of knights and want a mobile hard hitting force that completely halts your opponents advance across the table while your guard pounds them from afar.
From the looks of it, custodian guard are most likely gonna be reduced in points cost so that you can take 5 of them in a 200 point game.
Allarus termies will likely be 3 and a guard
Shield captain will be over 100 himself.
If you put thunder shield on a guard it will likely bump it to the point you cant take 5.
Still, a stock 5 custodian guard will be a great team. Allarus will be much better in kill team than in regular games as their increased ranged output (even if its short ranged) will help them more there.
A team of 3 allarus and a guard/w storm shield will probably be quite potent.
My list this time brought a loyal 32 + 2 HWTs w/ A custodes spearhead featuring Trajan, 2 Telemon, 3 Callidus, 1 unit of 3 Vertus, and a Vex with Magnifica.
He had a bunch of Genestealers several Units of Blood brothers and Hybrids, 3 HWTs bunch of characters and an Aberrant Bomb. Also had 2 Leman russ commanders
I got to got first and cleared out 1 HWT and almost all the infantry and dinged up the Genestealers pretty good. His turn his stealers charged my bikes and wiped it out them out the Lemans did 3 damage to a Callidus. His mortars dinged up 2 units of infantry but both stuck around.
My turn 2 cleared out the rest of his stealers and his 2 melee characters. Both Tanks took 9 damage. And kill off another unit of HWTs. His turn he droped the Kellermorph in and killer 1 HWT and 1 model out of the other. Tanks couldn't hit anything. Killed off the 2 wounds infantry squads.
Turn 3 I moved up to grab some objectives. Killed the Kellermorph both tanks and a few of his remaining characters and most of the last HWT. His aberants came in and charged the Telemon who kill quite a few in Overwatch. Ended up getting bracketed but was still kicking.
He called it there as he just didn't have enough to deal with the tanks and the abrrerants were really all he had left.
Had another game in which I played imperial soup
Krast knights lance with Gallant, Warglaive and Helreven
Loyal 32 with 2 HWTs
and A custodes spearhead with a unit of 3 Vertus Preators, SCoDEJB and 3 Callidus tanks.
Was playing vs Thousand sons.... I hate Psychic armies so damn much.
Magnus, Arhiman, 2 DPS bunch of Plague bringers you know the drill.
Anyway he got first turn proceed to get max damage on every single smite roll and all his Psychic powers off then warptimed to the knight Gallant and one shotted it with magnus. Fun. I had blown all but 3 of my cp trying to keep gak alive and charge with the Bikes (They failed even with cp reroll) so I conceded. I probably could of pulled it out as mangus was over extended and tied up the plauges with guard.... but I hate playing vs Super Psykic armies with a passion so I just conceded. Probably not the polite thing to do but oh well. Reminds me that I need to fit 85 points in my list so I can always have an Assassin to stop that gak. Lesson Learned.
Thanks for the report, I have been curious about how a force built around “take all the forgeworld tanks” would do, sounds like it still had enough shots to get through GSC. How were your Telemon s equipped? And did the gravitic backwash help vs charges?
greyknight12 wrote: Thanks for the report, I have been curious about how a force built around “take all the forgeworld tanks” would do, sounds like it still had enough shots to get through GSC. How were your Telemon s equipped? And did the gravitic backwash help vs charges?
Both telemon's were Dual storm cannons.
Nothing charged the tanks though I used them to screen a telemon on turn 2 so he couldn't get an easy charge off on it. And yes that list had shooting in spades.
The grav tanks + tanglefoot grenade really puts a hamper on peeps relying on a charge. On average, if you use tanglefoot grenade on a unit that is 8" away they cannot make a charge againgst a tank.
I've even stopped a few 3d6" charge units from making it in (bloodletter bomb) with tanglefoot grenades.
It's also funny to do the following (done it once):
Demon prince 6" away charges one of my tanks. tanglefoot grenade roll was a 5 so he fails his charge handily, taking 3 wounds in overwatch. End of the charge phase, my shield captain on dawneagle uses swooping dive on him and finish's him off with exactly 5 damage.
Granted I did spend 4 CP, but killing a demon prince on his own turn is probably worth it.
I recently killed a 1 wound guilliman with overwatch and almost killed a smash captain the same way; I haven’t had a chance to do it yet but spending the 1 CP for overwatch on a 5+ with one of those tanks on something like a smash captain could be a game changer if you roll well.
Eihnlazer wrote: The grav tanks + tanglefoot grenade really puts a hamper on peeps relying on a charge. On average, if you use tanglefoot grenade on a unit that is 8" away they cannot make a charge againgst a tank.
I've even stopped a few 3d6" charge units from making it in (bloodletter bomb) with tanglefoot grenades.
It's also funny to do the following (done it once):
Demon prince 6" away charges one of my tanks. tanglefoot grenade roll was a 5 so he fails his charge handily, taking 3 wounds in overwatch. End of the charge phase, my shield captain on dawneagle uses swooping dive on him and finish's him off with exactly 5 damage.
Granted I did spend 4 CP, but killing a demon prince on his own turn is probably worth it.
Honestly, when did the Telemon rule change, that you can only take one per list? I am going off the FW rules datasheet, so I am likely behind on the change?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Honestly, when did the Telemon rule change, that you can only take one per list? I am going off the FW rules datasheet, so I am likely behind on the change?
Beta mini-dex that introduced the bulk of the 30k units.
Is that downloadable like the rules off the website, or do I have to purchase it? Not really an issue, but I just want to see if they changed anything else. Thanks!
My list this time brought a loyal 32 + 2 HWTs w/ A custodes spearhead featuring Trajan, 2 Telemon, 3 Callidus, 1 unit of 3 Vertus, and a Vex with Magnifica.
...
I really appreciate you posting this BC i am in the process of replacing the Castellan in my list with 2 Grav tanks and 1 Telemon but i will include the rusty 17.
Don't you think that the rusty 17 will give to the opponent an easy way to score kill points or an easy way to control an objective (due to their low number)?
About the telemon, yes, now it is possible to deploy more than one copy, but it suffered a deep nerf (and a consequent point reduction) respect his only-one-copy version.
What nerf? The reduction in shots? That is STILL a stupidly powerful unit. I mean, it's no 2x cally tanks, but still. Next to the Orion it's the heaviest thing we can put on the board.
It's like the Hound. It's a big Fether and it's hard to kill.
Danarc wrote: Don't you think that the rusty 17 will give to the opponent an easy way to score kill points or an easy way to control an objective (due to their low number)?
About the telemon, yes, now it is possible to deploy more than one copy, but it suffered a deep nerf (and a consequent point reduction) respect his only-one-copy version.
No i thought about them giving up to much kill points. But i don't think it is a problem BC i intend to use whis list in the German TTM tournament format which rarly has kill points. But i think i will really benefit from the MSU that they give me and the teleport and 4+ ban stratagems.
Hey guys, i'm looking for opinion and feedback to starting the custodes army. The plan is to mostly use them to buff my other imperium units, and provide counter assault force. Now, i'm very aware of the jetbikes being ridiculously good, and i'll be planning to add some of them, but not entirely. I'm about to set a limit of 150-200 power level, and i'll appreciate any help on building a list. Here's what i've come up;
- 3x shield captain + 3x vexilla + 3x3 guard (battalion)
- trajann valoris (he seems very powerful)
- 2x shield captain on jetbike + 1-3 units of bikes (not sure)
- terminators (probably 12 models, not sure how to build up)
- custodes wardens (these are optional, to fill up the points)
Spreelock wrote: Hey guys, i'm looking for opinion and feedback to starting the custodes army. The plan is to mostly use them to buff my other imperium units, and provide counter assault force. Now, i'm very aware of the jetbikes being ridiculously good, and i'll be planning to add some of them, but not entirely. I'm about to set a limit of 150-200 power level, and i'll appreciate any help on building a list. Here's what i've come up;
- 3x shield captain + 3x vexilla + 3x3 guard (battalion)
- trajann valoris (he seems very powerful)
- 2x shield captain on jetbike + 1-3 units of bikes (not sure)
- terminators (probably 12 models, not sure how to build up)
- custodes wardens (these are optional, to fill up the points)
Personally thats not my style and I find much of that ineffective.
The star of custodes armies currently is surprisingly their vehicles. Telemon and Achilles dreads are great. Grav-attacks are excellent for their points. And the Grav-tanks for me are an auto-take for all my custodes armies.
I find that if your running pure Custodes you really don't need a battalion but if you want the cp loyal 32 or Rusty 17 are better options. For terminators I would only ever take 3 allarus just for unleash the lion shenanigans if you want to go bulk then Aquilons Terminators are much much better. But don't be surprised if they don't do much. While their offense is great....their defense is a little lacking and they are risky to use. Wardens I really only like in a Orion bomb. Which again is risky but potentially very effective. For shield captains Always go with ones on Jetbikes unless you absolute need the points difference for something important. Jetbikes are really really good if your going without forgeworld units then spamming them is your best bet.
So I ordered some Venatari the other day, and am finding it difficult to decide which weapons to give them. The Kinetic Destroyers are far better shooting but the Lance is much better in CC. Any ideas?
Additionally I'm also looking for some Vertus or Allarus helmets if anyone has any spare. I need 3 of the same type, and have ££ or SM parts to trade.
Because none of the meta lists have a problem killing 9 bikes in 1-2 turns and there is nothing such a list can do about it, it has 1 tactic and no counter play.
Valkyrie wrote: So I ordered some Venatari the other day, and am finding it difficult to decide which weapons to give them. The Kinetic Destroyers are far better shooting but the Lance is much better in CC. Any ideas?
Additionally I'm also looking for some Vertus or Allarus helmets if anyone has any spare. I need 3 of the same type, and have ££ or SM parts to trade.
According to mathhammer in no one situation the spear is better than buckler and pistol. Even in cc the buckler and pistol are better than the spear since you can use the pistol in cc.
From a wider point of view, 3 venetari (with pistols and buckler) can deal a total of 83,19 damage (melee+shooting) against 8+10 targets (T8/2+, T8/3+, T7/3+, T6/3+, T5/2+/3W, T4/2+/2W, T4/3+/1W, T3/5+/1W in melee and against the same plus T7/3+/fly, T6/3+/fly for shooting), that means 0,42 damage per point. with spears the total is equal to 68,039 with a damage per point equal to 0,37.
Moreover, this means that Venetari (with the previous mentioned loadout) are the Custodes third efficient unit per point after Aquilon (0,505) and Wardens (0,422).
I'm starting a Custodes Army, and I want to know the proper ratio of foot soldiers to bikers I should bring. I plan to run biker shield captains for my HQs, but I'm not sure if I still need some bikers in my battalion, and how many. I plan to run an additional Rusty 17.
SirGunslinger wrote: I'm starting a Custodes Army, and I want to know the proper ratio of foot soldiers to bikers I should bring. I plan to run biker shield captains for my HQs, but I'm not sure if I still need some bikers in my battalion, and how many. I plan to run an additional Rusty 17.
Thanks!
If you're running AdMech for CP already, then ditch the Footstodes. Take an Outrider of Jetbikes and load up. Add Onagers to the AdMech for some distance anti-armor or ally in an Imperial Knight too.
Because none of the meta lists have a problem killing 9 bikes in 1-2 turns and there is nothing such a list can do about it, it has 1 tactic and no counter play.
I run 9x bikes. Frankly it's more of a style/preference thing; a lot of people like the infantry and in an imperial soup list the troops fill a niche. The key is that you also absolutely need to have a fire support element like 3x Telemons or Caladius tanks, and plain bikes will get shot off the table if you don't have a way to kill the stuff that chews through them before your bikes spread out across the table. ITC terrain also plays a role; Geoff's reason for not running bikes is partially due to them being unable to enter closed buildings.
I have some batreps with my list back on page 89: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/2640/749151.page#10431202
Used clever deployment to avoid most of his shooting 1st 2 turns, but I basically got tabled by the end. All i had left was a Telemon with 2 wounds. But technically, I was up on points.
My x4 bolter bikes and bike captain kinda fell flat.
What armies do Custodes seem to have good matchups against? Which armies are tough?
Well after the tourney this weekend im really at a loss. I can blame the loss's on the dice but certain armies are honestly just too strong for custodes to compete againgst (dark eldar).
Heres a short breakdown:
Game one- Very close game, 26-25(me) at the end. I honestly should have won this one. My Dawneagle captain was holding a critical objective at the end of the game. He had 2 wounds left and my opponent had one venom in rapid fire range. After shooting he inflicted 4 wounds with no CP and I proceeded to roll 3 1's for armor saves and no FNP rolls, give my opponent 2 points and costing me 1.
Game 2- Grotesque spam with harlies backing them up. I lost this game pretty bad (28-21me), but the opponent was pretty shady. I carefully measured distance with my grav tanks to be out of range of his haywire blasters after consulting him about their range of threat then on his turn he casually says "Oh and I can advance and shoot with no penalty due to this trait" and proceeds to mortal wound my tanks to death. Not to mention towards the end of the game he was scooping his dice rolls before I could see what they were clearly.
3. Chaos knights with some chaos marines also a fire raptor. Won this one 31-22. I got a pretty good start by putting like 11 wounds on the knight in shooting and getting a charge off with both my dawneagle captain and a unit of custodian guard with no overwatch. My opponent retaliated by blowing 2 of my grav tanks up with armigers and lazcannons (swear I couldn't roll a 5+ invun for anything). Turns 3 saw my dawneagle captain charge towards his disk sorc and die ingloriously to a fire rapter and some mortal wounds. After that I managed to bring down the fire raptor with my termy captain and the other tank, but I couldn't do much else but sit around and hold objectives because of model count. His one obliterator sat in my backfield with one wound for 4 turns but I could never kill it. Vindicare assassin does not pull her own for me.
4. Oh joy, dark eldar again. Another loss for me (27-23) Dane was a cool guy though. He had 3 units of wracks, 1 big unit of grots, 3 ravagers, 2 raiders 2 venoms, one big squad of wych's with a succy, 2 archons and a haemonculai. He took engineers on the wracks and ended up maxing it even after I pumped an obscene amount of fire into one of the units. This man could not fail a 4+ invun on his grotesques and I couldn't make a 5+ on my tanks. After a good first 2 turns he basically tabled my long range support by turn 4 and I was stuck in combat in the middle of the table from turns 2-6 with my guardians and dawneagle captain.
Might just drop the assassin and loyal 32 to get a second dawneagle captain and a pallas grav. I get such bad luck with the vindicare and the eversor is really only a backfield distraction. Termy captain can deepstrike but has little shooting presence and is too slow after that so a second biker captain might be the key. It would also make me pure custodes.
Eihnlazer wrote: Well after the tourney this weekend im really at a loss. I can blame the loss's on the dice but certain armies are honestly just too strong for custodes to compete againgst (dark eldar).
Heres a short breakdown:
Game one- Very close game, 26-25(me) at the end. I honestly should have won this one. My Dawneagle captain was holding a critical objective at the end of the game. He had 2 wounds left and my opponent had one venom in rapid fire range. After shooting he inflicted 4 wounds with no CP and I proceeded to roll 3 1's for armor saves and no FNP rolls, give my opponent 2 points and costing me 1.
Game 2- Grotesque spam with harlies backing them up. I lost this game pretty bad (28-21me), but the opponent was pretty shady. I carefully measured distance with my grav tanks to be out of range of his haywire blasters after consulting him about their range of threat then on his turn he casually says "Oh and I can advance and shoot with no penalty due to this trait" and proceeds to mortal wound my tanks to death. Not to mention towards the end of the game he was scooping his dice rolls before I could see what they were clearly.
3. Chaos knights with some chaos marines also a fire raptor. Won this one 31-22. I got a pretty good start by putting like 11 wounds on the knight in shooting and getting a charge off with both my dawneagle captain and a unit of custodian guard with no overwatch. My opponent retaliated by blowing 2 of my grav tanks up with armigers and lazcannons (swear I couldn't roll a 5+ invun for anything). Turns 3 saw my dawneagle captain charge towards his disk sorc and die ingloriously to a fire rapter and some mortal wounds. After that I managed to bring down the fire raptor with my termy captain and the other tank, but I couldn't do much else but sit around and hold objectives because of model count. His one obliterator sat in my backfield with one wound for 4 turns but I could never kill it. Vindicare assassin does not pull her own for me.
4. Oh joy, dark eldar again. Another loss for me (27-23) Dane was a cool guy though. He had 3 units of wracks, 1 big unit of grots, 3 ravagers, 2 raiders 2 venoms, one big squad of wych's with a succy, 2 archons and a haemonculai. He took engineers on the wracks and ended up maxing it even after I pumped an obscene amount of fire into one of the units. This man could not fail a 4+ invun on his grotesques and I couldn't make a 5+ on my tanks. After a good first 2 turns he basically tabled my long range support by turn 4 and I was stuck in combat in the middle of the table from turns 2-6 with my guardians and dawneagle captain.
Might just drop the assassin and loyal 32 to get a second dawneagle captain and a pallas grav. I get such bad luck with the vindicare and the eversor is really only a backfield distraction. Termy captain can deepstrike but has little shooting presence and is too slow after that so a second biker captain might be the key. It would also make me pure custodes.
Thanks for the batraps. What was your list?
I am currently looking for something so replace the Castellan in my list.
The list i plan to use is this
Trajann
Vexilla
3 Caladius with accelerator
2 Telemon with storm cannon
I took a battalion of stodes, one dawneagle captain, one termy captain, 3 units of guardians with one shield. One vexilla magnifica. A spearhead with trajann and 3 calidius.
Loyal 32 and an assassin.
It's got a few bodies, some mobility, hard hitters, but still couldn't beat 3 different dark eldar lists.
Why exactly are grotesques tougher than custodes to kill? Im not sure why they have a 4++. Doesn't make sense from the fluff tbh.
Eihnlazer wrote: I took a battalion of stodes, one dawneagle captain, one termy captain, 3 units of guardians with one shield. One vexilla magnifica. A spearhead with trajann and 3 calidius.
Loyal 32 and an assassin.
It's got a few bodies, some mobility, hard hitters, but still couldn't beat 3 different dark eldar lists.
Why exactly are grotesques tougher than custodes to kill? Im not sure why they have a 4++. Doesn't make sense from the fluff tbh.
I think they're a 5++, but one of the Coven traits is +1 Invuln.
So, I want to make a list including Allarus Custodians, because I think they can operate fairly well without CP, which is what I am going for. I will likely use the majority of my CP on Blood games, so I want units that can earn points back without costing CP.
Is there a reason everyone poo poos the Allarus? They seem brutally efficient the two times I've used them, sorta how I imagined Terminators should be.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, I want to make a list including Allarus Custodians, because I think they can operate fairly well without CP, which is what I am going for. I will likely use the majority of my CP on Blood games, so I want units that can earn points back without costing CP.
Is there a reason everyone poo poos the Allarus? They seem brutally efficient the two times I've used them, sorta how I imagined Terminators should be.
Too expensive for what they do is what it boils down to. Put into stark contrast when compared to jetbikes. A Jetbike Custodes can largely do everything an Allarus can, but better, for the same price AND it comes with anti-horde capabilities the Allarus simply don't have access to.
If you want something CP independent that's like an Allarus, look at Wardens or Aquillons. Wardens have the same hitting strength but are a lot cheaper. Aquillons are as expensive as Allarus/Jetbikes but do significantly more damage with their Solarite Gauntlets.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, I want to make a list including Allarus Custodians, because I think they can operate fairly well without CP, which is what I am going for. I will likely use the majority of my CP on Blood games, so I want units that can earn points back without costing CP.
Is there a reason everyone poo poos the Allarus? They seem brutally efficient the two times I've used them, sorta how I imagined Terminators should be.
Because everyone likes the hurricane bolter vertus bikes. You get that movement and the gun for a few points more.
The problem with Aquillons is I honestly can't justify keeping that many points off the board for that long. As for the Wardens, I am paying Allarus prices for something that basically has a 5(?)+ FNP, and half the shooting.
I was thinking going Jetbike Custodes, but I haven't seen them used at all, or good techniques.
As for bikes, I love models, the units, everything. But about 600pts in just anti horde leaves me with little anti armor potential. At least the Allarus are fighting on S8 hits. I may just go with the Jetpacks and Gravtanks.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: The problem with Aquillons is I honestly can't justify keeping that many points off the board for that long. As for the Wardens, I am paying Allarus prices for something that basically has a 5(?)+ FNP, and half the shooting.
I was thinking going Jetbike Custodes, but I haven't seen them used at all, or good techniques.
As for bikes, I love models, the units, everything. But about 600pts in just anti horde leaves me with little anti armor potential. At least the Allarus are fighting on S8 hits. I may just go with the Jetpacks and Gravtanks.
Don't let the S6 of the Jetbikes fool you. Since they re-roll all damage on the charge and have one more AP, there isn't much difference. To give a quick comparison:
On the charge, against a T8 3+ target, one Allarus model averages 2.22 wounds with 1.98 standard deviation (27% change of 0 wounds). A Jetbike averages 3.09 with 2.20 standard deviation (14% chance to do 0). Their melee anti-armor is about the same.
For the Aquillons, you should be holding about the same amount of points of them in reserve as you are with Allarus. Footslogging the Allarus is a bad idea and our Land Raider is waaaaaaay too expensive (some people get an Orion to work though).
For the Wardens, they trade 1 Wound, innate Deep Strike and the Balistus Grenade Launcher (which only has a 12" range anyway) for a 5+++ and a fairly steep price reduction.
Anyway, you don't see mass Jetbikes too much anymore because Custodes players are moving onto Grav-Tank lists. Something akin to:
Trajann
-1 to Hit Flag
Caladius
Caladius
Caladius
Which does a huge amount of damage over an immense range while sporting crazy durability (the Caladius has a -2 Charge effect for enemies, can Fall Back and Shoot thanks to Fly, large movement, more than 60" range on its gun, e.t.c.). Thet Jetbikes, despite largely outclassing our Codex, are largely being outclassed by our Flying Tanks.
Hey guys, thinking of something along these lines for attempting to make an as-competitive-as-possible pure Custodes list. I'm wondering if this is the obvious build or if there is something better I'm missing out on. I really actually would prefer infantry-heavy as I feel like the tanks wouldn't be a ton of fun to play as they seem like a sit and shoot death star but maybe I'm wrong.
You are going to have an easy time against knights, and a hard time against an army designed to hold objectives. You don't have a lot that can effectively hold an objective, now that everything has "objective secured" etc.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: You are going to have an easy time against knights, and a hard time against an army designed to hold objectives. You don't have a lot that can effectively hold an objective, now that everything has "objective secured" etc.
Everything in that list except the tanks (and assassin) has ObSec, and if you cant sweep most Troop units off points with that much firepower I dont know what to say.
Right, Except when two units have ObjSec, the one with more models wins. Short of Knights, we aren't getting the objective against other troops.
It's honestly been my biggest struggle playing custodes. Do I use my dakka blowing up the tzangors holding the objective, or do I turn it all at the two daemon princes who are about to murder my tanks in CC?
Horde armies can really dictate the fight against us, which makes it difficult to play anything but wipe the board.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Right, Except when two units have ObjSec, the one with more models wins. Short of Knights, we aren't getting the objective against other troops.
You have hurricane bolters and multiple burst-firing Caladii. Why the hell are enemy troops alive?
iGuy91 wrote: Welp. Got my first game in. 1250 points vs Tau.
Used clever deployment to avoid most of his shooting 1st 2 turns, but I basically got tabled by the end. All i had left was a Telemon with 2 wounds. But technically, I was up on points.
My x4 bolter bikes and bike captain kinda fell flat.
What armies do Custodes seem to have good matchups against? Which armies are tough?
I think tyranids vs Custodes is one of the better matches I get with them. Nids seem to have an advantage but custodes are always in it (especially if there is a central objective). Custodes vs Tau is one of the worst I think. Custodes have almost no chance against Tau.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Right, Except when two units have ObjSec, the one with more models wins. Short of Knights, we aren't getting the objective against other troops.
You have hurricane bolters and multiple burst-firing Caladii. Why the hell are enemy troops alive?
Did you see my post? I literally said we have three main objectives, of at which we can handle 2 at most, and a single one of the three can crush us. We can be anti-horde, anti-armor, or objective holders, but we can't do all three.
Against a squad of 15 tzangors, backed up by tzeench sorcerers, or daemon princes, are -1 to hit, and get a myriad of other buffs, he won't do so hot.
He has 3 separate bikes on his list. given the standard rerolls, each will in the shooting phase, kill about 2 models out of 15. That isn't enough, even if all three focus fire down the squad, to take out a single squad of Tzangors. Then he might just get them all back in moral. It gets even worse if he's up against Deathguard.
Everyone loves to love the bikes, because they are totally awesome, but there are a lot of ways to cheese them out. And before you say what about the tanks, keep in mind there are other more important targets than a squad of entrenched troops.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Right, Except when two units have ObjSec, the one with more models wins. Short of Knights, we aren't getting the objective against other troops.
You have hurricane bolters and multiple burst-firing Caladii. Why the hell are enemy troops alive?
You usually don't have both and that's the Crux of the problem. Running both Caladii AND Jetbikes leaves you very CP starved and short on screens (though Caladii are more screen independent).
In ITC you can balance this out because all you're losing is 'hold more' most likely. You can get kill, kill more, hold one and take kill secondaries. NOVA you can pick endgame scoring. If you're doing ETC or GW missions though it can be much more troublesome.
As someone who plays (and this is all in ITC, mind you) pure knights running 4-6 models and occasionally with up to 2 knights who count as troops or count as 10 troops, I don't find the low model count per unit the issue with holding objectives, it's the relatively low number of units total. Not having enough units to reach various parts of the board, or enough left over to do so on turns 3, 4, and 5. If my opponent has 30 boys holding objective 2 and I want them gone, they're gone. There's no popular troops choice in 40k 8th edition, for the most part, that isn't easily removable, so the numerical models per unit disadvantage isn't a total killer.
SevenSixTwoX39 wrote: As someone who plays (and this is all in ITC, mind you) pure knights running 4-6 models and occasionally with up to 2 knights who count as troops or count as 10 troops, I don't find the low model count per unit the issue with holding objectives, it's the relatively low number of units total. Not having enough units to reach various parts of the board, or enough left over to do so on turns 3, 4, and 5. If my opponent has 30 boys holding objective 2 and I want them gone, they're gone. There's no popular troops choice in 40k 8th edition, for the most part, that isn't easily removable, so the numerical models per unit disadvantage isn't a total killer.
No offense, but a knight player stating they can wipe troops or chaff off the board doesn't mean much. That's like saying 1kSons have psykic. It's the bare minimum. If you play knights and can't wipe troops off the map, well, sorry.
But we are discussing the ability for Custodes to take and hold OBJs. Which we struggle with, because almost EVERYONE now has some form of objective secured. And it's hard for us to dedicate units to both holding objectives and wiping out chaff. It's not the express purpose of Custodes I would argue. The main play style for Custodes is to table the opponent. Nothing else matters. You will lose objectives to larger hordes, and you can't go toe to toe with anything above T8 without FW.
If you mainly win by tabling, but can't take out chaff, how does that work? I'm not suggesting you're ever gonna get Hold More every single turn, but merely that removing your opponent's models is typically the way to go rather than just hoping you get more within 3" for most armies in 8th. 3 Jetbike HQs can take down 28 boys before morale on average. It's definitely in the cards for even the weakest custodes list to remove every single troops model from a single objective in one turn.
You usually don't have both and that's the Crux of the problem.
The list in question explicitly brings both.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Did you see my post? I literally said we have three main objectives, of at which we can handle 2 at most, and a single one of the three can crush us. We can be anti-horde, anti-armor, or objective holders, but we can't do all three.
Against a squad of 15 tzangors, backed up by tzeench sorcerers, or daemon princes, are -1 to hit, and get a myriad of other buffs, he won't do so hot.
He has 3 separate bikes on his list. given the standard rerolls, each will in the shooting phase, kill about 2 models out of 15. That isn't enough, even if all three focus fire down the squad, to take out a single squad of Tzangors. Then he might just get them all back in moral. It gets even worse if he's up against Deathguard.
Everyone loves to love the bikes, because they are totally awesome, but there are a lot of ways to cheese them out. And before you say what about the tanks, keep in mind there are other more important targets than a squad of entrenched troops.
If your opponent is pumping all their buffs into a single squad of objective camping goats, you've already got the advantage (not that any TSons player with a functioning cognitive organ is that stupid). Mobility and range are lethal weapons in the grav-tank era. Destroy the squishy gits without protection.
You usually don't have both and that's the Crux of the problem.
The list in question explicitly brings both.
No, it doesn't. It has 3 HQ's on Bikes. That's not what is normally meant by 'bringing Jetbikes'. That's like taking 1800 points of Wulfen and a single lascannon then saying you 'brought ranged anti-tank'. It's not in enough numbers to really be a leg of the list on its own.
3 HQ's only gets you 36 shots in Rapid Fire range. That's about 12 dead Guardsmen (in cover or with some buff) per round of shooting. Not a lot.
3 HQ's only gets you 36 shots in Rapid Fire range. That's about 12 dead Guardsmen (in cover or with some buff) per round of shooting. Not a lot.
Which is more than enough to uproot a GEQ squad or two huddling on an objective. And thats before getting into the souped up HBs that the Caladii will be firing.
We're not talking about wiping out 90 genestealers here. We're talking about precision strikes to nab objectives.
3 HQ's only gets you 36 shots in Rapid Fire range. That's about 12 dead Guardsmen (in cover or with some buff) per round of shooting. Not a lot.
Which is more than enough to uproot a GEQ squad or two huddling on an objective. And thats before getting into the souped up HBs that the Caladii will be firing.
We're not talking about wiping out 90 genestealers here. We're talking about precision strikes to nab objectives.
Uh, actually, in a competitive setting, tons of Gensstealers (or the Chaos equivalent, 60+ Plaguebearers) is what we're starting to see. You should actually be thinking about "how will I deal with that". Even the Imperial Guard/Castellan lists took 80 Infantry.
Uh, actually, in a competitive setting, tons of Gensstealers (or the Chaos equivalent, 60+ Plaguebearers) is what we're starting to see. You should actually be thinking about "how will I deal with that". Even the Imperial Guard/Castellan lists took 80 Infantry.
Please go back and read the specific context that Fezzik was kvetching about. You're doing some very significant goalpost moving here.
Uh, actually, in a competitive setting, tons of Gensstealers (or the Chaos equivalent, 60+ Plaguebearers) is what we're starting to see. You should actually be thinking about "how will I deal with that". Even the Imperial Guard/Castellan lists took 80 Infantry.
Please go back and read the specific context that Fezzik was kvetching about. You're doing some very significant goalpost moving here.
I'm afraid it appears to be you who has misinterpreted the context. Fezzik was discussing how the list would have a "hard time against an army designed to hold objectives" and that "Horde armies can really dictate the fight against us, which makes it difficult to play anything but wipe the board". If you've interpreted that as only being about CasualHammer, than you're grossly misreading it. It did not specify and is thus open to both.
So my point remains. 3 Hurricane Bolters is nowhere near enough when dealing with real hordes. Custodes do have a hard time holding objectives against them. I'll add now that I also agree that they can really dictate the fight against us.
I think there's a typo in the Forgeworld Custodes rules. The Caladius Grav-Tank has a Twin Heavy Blaze Cannon where the burst mode has a profile that's double the shots of a normal Blaze Cannon, but the Beam profile does not. It should be Heavy 4, especially if it's 100 points!
So the best tactic I have found for holding off hordes and keeping objs is actually Guardian Squads. If I can shoot, charge, and fight, then I usually deplete the squad enough so that it's a toss up as to who's got obj sec. It it's something rediculous like I previously stated;
15 Blood letters with psychic buffs backed by a lord of change and a daemon prince, well, things get really ugly. I either have to put all my shots from multiple units into the squad, or I need to just go the other way and hope they don't score more than 3 points off it.
The main focus of Custodes should often be: How can I kill their warlord as quickly as possible. The whole army is really built with that goal. The pile in rule, the heroic interventions, the strats, etc. So my primary targets are usually:
1. Warlord
2. Characters of Importance (HQ, Assasins, Buffers, psychers)
3. Tanks/Heavy Support
4. Objectives
5. Chaff
Granted I don't win many mission by objectives, but I can usually shut down the meta game pretty early and then it's a battle of attrition to take the game in the next 3 rounds.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So the best tactic I have found for holding off hordes and keeping objs is actually Guardian Squads. If I can shoot, charge, and fight, then I usually deplete the squad enough so that it's a toss up as to who's got obj sec. It it's something rediculous like I previously stated;
15 Blood letters with psychic buffs backed by a lord of change and a daemon prince, well, things get really ugly. I either have to put all my shots from multiple units into the squad, or I need to just go the other way and hope they don't score more than 3 points off it.
The main focus of Custodes should often be: How can I kill their warlord as quickly as possible. The whole army is really built with that goal. The pile in rule, the heroic interventions, the strats, etc. So my primary targets are usually:
1. Warlord
2. Characters of Importance (HQ, Assasins, Buffers, psychers)
3. Tanks/Heavy Support
4. Objectives
5. Chaff
Granted I don't win many mission by objectives, but I can usually shut down the meta game pretty early and then it's a battle of attrition to take the game in the next 3 rounds.
Valkyrie wrote: Considering its a paltry 3 Damage I'm guessing it must be a typo. Either give us more shots or make it D6 damage!
Dunno. I would take D3 any day over Dd6. Average is only 0.5 less but reliability is soooo much better. It's even better when you are shooting anything with 3 or 6 wounds. Even vs 2 wound targets it's better. You'll never even average the 3.5 vs those(2.5 wound vs W3 target actually. 1.83 vs 2 wound targets).
So far my Vertus Praetors have thoroughly underwhelmed. I'm getting them into combat relatively unscathed through good positioning, but my Auric Aquilis biker captain keeps failing charges, and I had 5 bikes on the charge do a measly 5 wounds on Breyarth Ashmantle after using their shooting to clear away his protective screen. Just completely, utterly whiffed.
How the hell do you use these things? The way everyone talks about them they're fantastic...
Because I'm pretty sure he's a T8 2+/4++/4+++ monster of a dreadnought.
Okay, I was wrong-he's only got a 5++, but is TOUGHNESS FLIPPING 9!
So, 5 Vertus Praetors do, on average...
20 swings 175/9 hits (assuming a captain in range) 1,925/324 wounds 1,925/486 unsaved Multiply by 2 for d3 damage, but divide by 2 for 4+ FNP. Total damage: 3.96 Corrected math in next post.
Of course, people with axes do WORSE-they're S8 vs T9, so still wounding on 5s; only AP-2 instead of AP-3; and don't reroll wounds
So, your issue is not that bikes are bad, it's that Ashmantle kicks all the butt. But for 400 points, he SHOULD-that's more than a Knight Gallant!
Because I'm pretty sure he's a T8 2+/4++/4+++ monster of a dreadnought.
Okay, I was wrong-he's only got a 5++, but is TOUGHNESS FLIPPING 9!
So, 5 Vertus Praetors do, on average...
20 swings
175/9 hits (assuming a captain in range)
1,925/324 wounds
1,925/486 unsaved
Multiply by 2 for d3 damage, but divide by 2 for 4+ FNP. Total damage:
3.96
Of course, people with axes do WORSE-they're S8 vs T9, so still wounding on 5s; only AP-2 instead of AP-3; and don't reroll wounds
So, your issue is not that bikes are bad, it's that Ashmantle kicks all the butt. But for 400 points, he SHOULD-that's more than a Knight Gallant!
As the gentleman I played ran him, he had a 2+, 5++/4+++, and I used avenge the fallen after losing a bike to overwatch giving me 25 attacks. They had rerolls but my captain failed to join them.
But its still 5+ to wound, re-rolling. I've been sitting here all evening and rolling 20-25 wounds before FNP, which ought to be enough to drop him if he passed 50% of his FNP. I only managed 12. He saved 7/12 on FNP. Breyarth then murdered the squad over the next turn before I could pull out.
Does that math jive? That seems really off?
Because I'm pretty sure he's a T8 2+/4++/4+++ monster of a dreadnought.
Okay, I was wrong-he's only got a 5++, but is TOUGHNESS FLIPPING 9!
So, 5 Vertus Praetors do, on average...
20 swings
175/9 hits (assuming a captain in range)
1,925/324 wounds
1,925/486 unsaved
Multiply by 2 for d3 damage, but divide by 2 for 4+ FNP. Total damage:
3.96
Of course, people with axes do WORSE-they're S8 vs T9, so still wounding on 5s; only AP-2 instead of AP-3; and don't reroll wounds
So, your issue is not that bikes are bad, it's that Ashmantle kicks all the butt. But for 400 points, he SHOULD-that's more than a Knight Gallant!
As the gentleman I played ran him, he had a 2+, 5++/4+++, and I used avenge the fallen after losing a bike to overwatch giving me 25 attacks. They had rerolls but my captain failed to join them.
But its still 5+ to wound, re-rolling. I've been sitting here all evening and rolling 20-25 wounds before FNP, which ought to be enough to drop him if he passed 50% of his FNP. I only managed 12. He saved 7/12 on FNP. Breyarth then murdered the squad over the next turn before I could pull out.
Does that math jive? That seems really off?
Wait, maybe I'm reading this wrong, but are you rolling FNP against WOUNDS or against DAMAGE? Because it should be the latter. If I wound you with a lance, I roll 1D3 for damage. The result of that 1D3 is what you roll FNP against. So if I got a 2, you make 32 FNP rolls, one for each point of damage. 1 wound, 2 damage. 1 invulnerable save, 2 FNP rolls.
Because I'm pretty sure he's a T8 2+/4++/4+++ monster of a dreadnought.
Okay, I was wrong-he's only got a 5++, but is TOUGHNESS FLIPPING 9!
So, 5 Vertus Praetors do, on average...
20 swings
175/9 hits (assuming a captain in range)
1,925/324 wounds
1,925/486 unsaved
Multiply by 2 for d3 damage, but divide by 2 for 4+ FNP. Total damage:
3.96
Of course, people with axes do WORSE-they're S8 vs T9, so still wounding on 5s; only AP-2 instead of AP-3; and don't reroll wounds
So, your issue is not that bikes are bad, it's that Ashmantle kicks all the butt. But for 400 points, he SHOULD-that's more than a Knight Gallant!
As the gentleman I played ran him, he had a 2+, 5++/4+++, and I used avenge the fallen after losing a bike to overwatch giving me 25 attacks. They had rerolls but my captain failed to join them.
But its still 5+ to wound, re-rolling. I've been sitting here all evening and rolling 20-25 wounds before FNP, which ought to be enough to drop him if he passed 50% of his FNP. I only managed 12. He saved 7/12 on FNP. Breyarth then murdered the squad over the next turn before I could pull out.
Does that math jive? That seems really off?
Wait, maybe I'm reading this wrong, but are you rolling FNP against WOUNDS or against DAMAGE? Because it should be the latter. If I wound you with a lance, I roll 1D3 for damage. The result of that 1D3 is what you roll FNP against. So if I got a 2, you make 32 FNP rolls, one for each point of damage. 1 wound, 2 damage. 1 invulnerable save, 2 FNP rolls.
Yeah, sure, 20-25 damage from the damage. Still doesn't change the fact that the damn bikes whiffed horribly. i played it right. Just used the wrong word in the post.
I will admit, bikes are big shiney models with one express purpose. Charging and grabbing points. I've only played a scant 6-8 games with my custodes, but every time the Bkes don't earn their points back unless the opponent is being a doofus.
Strengths: hard to kill, great shooting, awesome charging, great movement, OBJSEC, and fly for locking up flyers.
Weakness: Every model lost hurts BADLY, high cost, big target on their back.
That being said, I can't justify taking the bikes in the numbers required to make them useful. You either take multiple squads, or 1 big squad of like 9. Then you are sitting around 1k points for 9 models. And the rest of the game plan becomes moot. Also, you kinda become THAT GUY.
_SeeD_ wrote: Seems to me that a Telemon would deal with Ashmantle pretty well. How much does Ashmantle cost?
Around 400 pts and is also slow as hell.
And his max range is 8". Just run around him.
Yep. Don't do what I did when I first faced it with orks I had not bothered to check stats beforehand so "bit" underestimated his toughness so by the time I realized my mistake I was pretty much committed to HAVE to take it out. Should have just skitted around and then feed unit of boyz to it. Overwatch would hurt but then it would take too long to take down boyz to really matter.
The thing is designed to soak up damage. However it's speed and threat range isn't that impressive. Okay custodians are better target than horde but due to it's range just keep distance, pummel rest of army and don't focus too much resources early up taking it out. That's basically what he wants you to do.
Custodes Spearhead
HQ: Trajann
Elite: 3 Aquillons with Flamers and Gauntlets
Heavy: Telemon with 2 Arachnus
Heavy: Caladius with Accelerator
Heavy: Caladius with Accelerator
Catachan Battalion
HQ: Company Commander
HQ: Company Commander
Troops: 3x8 with 1 Mortar each
Heavy: Wyvern (Heavy Bolter)
Heavy: Basilisk (Heavy Bolter)
Custodes Spearhead
HQ: Trajann
Elite: 3 Aquillons with Flamers and Gauntlets
Heavy: Telemon with 2 Arachnus
Heavy: Caladius with Accelerator
Heavy: Caladius with Accelerator
Catachan Battalion
HQ: Company Commander
HQ: Company Commander
Troops: 3x8 with 1 Mortar each
Heavy: Wyvern (Heavy Bolter)
Heavy: Basilisk (Heavy Bolter)
Look at the other list, the one with 14 jetbikes...that one made it to the top 8 too (though I’m really not sure how). Jetbikes are good, it’s just that in a shooting game our tanks are better and in an imperium list so are guardsmen. In Geoff’s list the only potential place for bikes is to replace the terminators, but the Aquilons provide an otherwise lacking heavy melee in that list and Geoff has said before he’s concerned about bikes dealing with ITC magic boxes. And you don’t need hurricane bolters with a vigilus wyvren and a bunch of mortars.
I wasn’t too worried about them before this event, but now I’m legitimately worried our FW stuff is going to take a heavy nerf. It’s just so brutally efficient.
Other pure lists: Bridger Hahn went 5-1 with almost the same list I run and Colin came in 24th with an Orion Dropship. Congrats guys!
The production on the stream is some of the best I've ever seen with clear audio and excellent camera angles.
The match was also fantastic. Great comeback by Geoff T4: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/430379093
There is no reason to nerf our FW stuff. Its efficient compared to the rest of the custodes range yes, but its just barely floating compared to DE and AM.
If anything, i'd reduce the points cost on custodian guard by 3-4 points per model and all termies by 5ppm.
The Caladius is definitely much better than I gave it credit for when I first saw it. It doesn't have nearly the durability of a leviathan dread or telemon... but man, that 14" fly move is a game-changer.
Dreads require a lot of babysitting against melee to continue doing damage effectively, whereas grav-tanks don't care...
Well, we don't have to worry about point changes for another 4-6 months. That being said, I don't expect FW stuff to take a nerf, how often does GW nerf FW?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Well, we don't have to worry about point changes for another 4-6 months. That being said, I don't expect FW stuff to take a nerf, how often does GW nerf FW?
Lot. GW doesn't want players to buy resin as it's less profitable as plastic. That's how you get with 300% price hike to units that already were underperforming for points.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Well, we don't have to worry about point changes for another 4-6 months. That being said, I don't expect FW stuff to take a nerf, how often does GW nerf FW?
Lot. GW doesn't want players to buy resin as it's less profitable as plastic. That's how you get with 300% price hike to units that already were underperforming for points.
It's not because GW thinks they are overpowered. They have been gradually phasing out especially titanic forgeworld with point cost hikes because they don't want to see those units in matched play(=tournaments), but none of the point costs have changed their power levels
Question. Friend in my FLGC is starting a 1ksons army. Can Custodes hang with that sort of mortal wound output? i know smite and most powers rely on LOS. If i'm clever about it, I can hopefully reduce the pain some.
Would that be a good reason to take impregnable mind for the WL, rather than superior creation? Seems an uphill battle, but at least we have answers to tzangor bombs. (tanglefoot grenades)
iGuy91 wrote: Question. Friend in my FLGC is starting a 1ksons army. Can Custodes hang with that sort of mortal wound output? i know smite and most powers rely on LOS. If i'm clever about it, I can hopefully reduce the pain some.
Would that be a good reason to take impregnable mind for the WL, rather than superior creation? Seems an uphill battle, but at least we have answers to tzangor bombs. (tanglefoot grenades)
It can be tough and i highly recommend a culexus Assassin
iGuy91 wrote: Question. Friend in my FLGC is starting a 1ksons army. Can Custodes hang with that sort of mortal wound output? i know smite and most powers rely on LOS. If i'm clever about it, I can hopefully reduce the pain some.
Would that be a good reason to take impregnable mind for the WL, rather than superior creation? Seems an uphill battle, but at least we have answers to tzangor bombs. (tanglefoot grenades)
It's basically the Rock/Paper/Scizzors counter to our army. It's got all the strengths to perfectly target our weaknesses. Some take a Culexus, some take Sister's of Silence. With the recent CP/points nerf to Assasins, I usually take SoS over Culexus. Only played two games against 1KSons, but SoS earned their 150pts back and then some. They are amazing psycker hunters, and are great at denying psyckic at all with their Null properties.
If you're opponent is dumb enough to charge your guys, eat his lunch, but I would recommend going heavy infantry over large killy bots and tanks. You want bodies over bullets against 1kSons.
Prosecutors, the ones with Bolters. It's 50pts for a squad of 5 bolters with 4+ shooting. Not too shabby. They don't get Bolter Drill, but they still do alright. I want to try and use the Wytchseekers, or the ones with all flamers? That seems like a scary thing for 1ksuns to have to deal with when I get in range of their psyckers.
You might be better of with a Vindicare to remove Ahriman/DP's then a Culexus. Esp since 1k sons have 24" range smite and can just stay out of the Culexus range.
Ordana wrote: You might be better of with a Vindicare to remove Ahriman/DP's then a Culexus. Esp since 1k sons have 24" range smite and can just stay out of the Culexus range.
Though, to be fair. If the Culexis is out front, he will absorb the smites for no damage.
Vindy aint a bad idea though.
SoS aint bad either, use them as bubble wrap for screens, also smite-immune.
Though, to be fair. If the Culexis is out front, he will absorb the smites for no damage.
Vindy aint a bad idea though.
SoS aint bad either, use them as bubble wrap for screens, also smite-immune.
Tzangors are uniquely empowered to fight Culexii. A single Shaman with Presience will have foot goats hitting 4s. The same Shammy with flyin goats will have them hitting and auto-wounding on 4s.
And I really hate to rain on the parade, but TSons are exquisitely well equipped to shred T3/3+ screens. At the point levels youd need to effectively screen with them for more than one turn, you might as well just bring in some allied psykers.
The SoS bubble wrap best because they are always the closest target, so Smite is negated at any time. As for the targeted psychic attacks and buffs, you really can't help that.
Any good 1ksons player will have +2 to casts, so the -1/-2 aura from null/culexus won't effect much. The best you can hope for with the culexus is a super powered anti-psyker offensive game, while SoS is a pretty decent defensive game with a basic level shooting game that can target psykers.
Also 15 models/wounds for 150pts, vs, 2cp and 85pts for 1 model, 4 wounds. Also a good time to include that the SoS will gain far better advantage from Vexhilla Praetor buffs than the assassin will.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: The SoS bubble wrap best because they are always the closest target, so Smite is negated at any time. As for the targeted psychic attacks and buffs, you really can't help that.
Any good 1ksons player will have +2 to casts, so the -1/-2 aura from null/culexus won't effect much. The best you can hope for with the culexus is a super powered anti-psyker offensive game, while SoS is a pretty decent defensive game with a basic level shooting game that can target psykers.
Also 15 models/wounds for 150pts, vs, 2cp and 85pts for 1 model, 4 wounds. Also a good time to include that the SoS will gain far better advantage from Vexhilla Praetor buffs than the assassin will.
A couple notes I'm just adding on:
1. SoS aura stacks with itself up to -4 I believe and their Rhinos make one too. You can make a bit sturdier wall of transports.
2. SoS SHOULD also stack with Culexus aura. Similar name but different rules.
3. TSons out ranges the both of them though so it won't save a lot unless you bring a lot (something we have issue with due to our high point costs).
I mean, you could waste 100-120 points to give your 150 point screen that wont survive to turn two a 5++ that they'll never benefit from. But that doesnt strike me as a terribly intelligent decision.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Well, we don't have to worry about point changes for another 4-6 months. That being said, I don't expect FW stuff to take a nerf, how often does GW nerf FW?
Lot. GW doesn't want players to buy resin as it's less profitable as plastic. That's how you get with 300% price hike to units that already were underperforming for points.
It's not because GW thinks they are overpowered. They have been gradually phasing out especially titanic forgeworld with point cost hikes because they don't want to see those units in matched play(=tournaments), but none of the point costs have changed their power levels
It's not just titanic. Basically anything players mlght want to take gw wants to smack away so only collectors who don't spam same unit buys them. Gw wants that 500 pound spent on plastic they make automatedly with practically free material rather than 500 pound on more expensive material that is more labour intesive as it's not as automated as plastic.
It's simple business. Gw doesn't care about balance. It's just manipulating what people buy.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: The SoS bubble wrap best because they are always the closest target, so Smite is negated at any time. As for the targeted psychic attacks and buffs, you really can't help that.
Any good 1ksons player will have +2 to casts, so the -1/-2 aura from null/culexus won't effect much. The best you can hope for with the culexus is a super powered anti-psyker offensive game, while SoS is a pretty decent defensive game with a basic level shooting game that can target psykers.
Also 15 models/wounds for 150pts, vs, 2cp and 85pts for 1 model, 4 wounds. Also a good time to include that the SoS will gain far better advantage from Vexhilla Praetor buffs than the assassin will.
A couple notes I'm just adding on:
1. SoS aura stacks with itself up to -4 I believe and their Rhinos make one too. You can make a bit sturdier wall of transports.
2. SoS SHOULD also stack with Culexus aura. Similar name but different rules.
3. TSons out ranges the both of them though so it won't save a lot unless you bring a lot (something we have issue with due to our high point costs).
3. - Doesn't matter. Smite must target the nearest visible model. Unless you are a doof you will keep your Sisters between your enemy's psykers and your units. They cannot be targeted by Smite. Period. Nor can Culexus Assassins. Please forgive me if I misread your point, but it seems like you are saying they don't lock down psyker smite.
2. Should doesn't really matter?
1. -3. And even then, if you death star up your sister squads, you are missing the point of having them in the first place. They bubble shield all custodes from having to take mortal wounds. Don't consolidate them, spread them out. Thus, their stacking buff doesn't really ever come into play.
Sterling191 wrote: I mean, you could waste 100-120 points to give your 150 point screen that wont survive to turn two a 5++ that they'll never benefit from. But that doesnt strike me as a terribly intelligent decision.
You're right! They took it away! In 7th, SoS Rhino's had Psychic Abomination and I got my wires crossed.
S'all good sir. Edition changes do that. Excepting Assasins, most of the fragmented "Agents of the Imperium" really need some love right now.
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: They bubble shield all custodes from having to take mortal wounds. Don't consolidate them, spread them out. Thus, their stacking buff doesn't really ever come into play.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: The SoS bubble wrap best because they are always the closest target, so Smite is negated at any time. As for the targeted psychic attacks and buffs, you really can't help that.
Any good 1ksons player will have +2 to casts, so the -1/-2 aura from null/culexus won't effect much. The best you can hope for with the culexus is a super powered anti-psyker offensive game, while SoS is a pretty decent defensive game with a basic level shooting game that can target psykers.
Also 15 models/wounds for 150pts, vs, 2cp and 85pts for 1 model, 4 wounds. Also a good time to include that the SoS will gain far better advantage from Vexhilla Praetor buffs than the assassin will.
A couple notes I'm just adding on:
1. SoS aura stacks with itself up to -4 I believe and their Rhinos make one too. You can make a bit sturdier wall of transports.
2. SoS SHOULD also stack with Culexus aura. Similar name but different rules.
3. TSons out ranges the both of them though so it won't save a lot unless you bring a lot (something we have issue with due to our high point costs).
3. - Doesn't matter. Smite must target the nearest visible model. Unless you are a doof you will keep your Sisters between your enemy's psykers and your units. They cannot be targeted by Smite. Period. Nor can Culexus Assassins. Please forgive me if I misread your point, but it seems like you are saying they don't lock down psyker smite.
2. Should doesn't really matter?
1. -3. And even then, if you death star up your sister squads, you are missing the point of having them in the first place. They bubble shield all custodes from having to take mortal wounds. Don't consolidate them, spread them out. Thus, their stacking buff doesn't really ever come into play.
Only partially misunderstood.
3. Yeah, I wasn't disputing they can shut it off that way (though I was intimating it might not be worth spending enough points on them to make a big wall that couldn't be shot down easy). The range is more important for keeping enemy psykers in range for when they cast things like Glamour and Death Hex and the huge boost they have make it hard to do that.
2. I can't see how it wouldn't. If you're trying to drag down your opponent's casting with modifiers, stacking yourself up to -6 seems pretty significant (if you can manage the positioning, which is hard against TSons).
1. My Index says -4. Did they FAQ it somewhere? Anyway, my thoughts were that if you only take a minimum, you won't have enough to play the positioning war with TSons and/or they'll just get shot off the board. You'd need a lot of them, thus also making it easier to stack.
My main point is, Any 1kSons army you are facing with a half-decent setup is going to be casting on +2 and I think +3 is possible but I also think it's now illegal(?). That being said, Any negative modifiers you apply are just reducing them back to normality. +/- 0 to cast. It would take a lot to drop them into negatives.
If we are still talking a Custodes/SoS soup army, you don't have the points, or the time, to waste setting up a big SoS faction going around debuffing Ahriman. You just don't.
You're going to be getting charged by daemons and tzangors by turn 2, so you can't play keep away, or hope your opponent tries to be a shooting army. 1kSons are almost a majority fight army, a lot of their daemons and stuff don't even have guns.
So, in my summation, if you are going up against a 1ksons army, as a custodes army, build your list around a small force of Null maidens or a single Culexus, but don't expect it to make a major difference. They are there to dull the psychic phase, but you are still gonna get smacked with a full psyker army.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So,
Here's the list I play against my friend's Chaos Soup (mostly 1kSons with other nurgle flavor):
Fast Attack: Squad of 3x Vertus Praetors w/ Bolters
Heavy: Two Callidus Tanks with Accelerators
Vanguard Det of 3x SoS Prosecutor Squads 5x bolters
1749pts - 8CP
I form ranks from my SoS to hold off any smites and back them up with guard squads, send out my Vertus to hold a point. Trojan, Tanks, and Flag sit on the back field and take shots at anything that looks funny at my lines.
Turn two I go hunting with the tanks and Trojan, and start walking my lines forward. I will get charged next turn likely, so I charge my guys instead.
I have won 1-3 matches. But it could have ended 3-0 or 0-3. Dice play a large part in the massive rolls offs of Psyker stuff.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Well, we don't have to worry about point changes for another 4-6 months. That being said, I don't expect FW stuff to take a nerf, how often does GW nerf FW?
Lot. GW doesn't want players to buy resin as it's less profitable as plastic. That's how you get with 300% price hike to units that already were underperforming for points.
It's not because GW thinks they are overpowered. They have been gradually phasing out especially titanic forgeworld with point cost hikes because they don't want to see those units in matched play(=tournaments), but none of the point costs have changed their power levels
It's not just titanic. Basically anything players mlght want to take gw wants to smack away so only collectors who don't spam same unit buys them. Gw wants that 500 pound spent on plastic they make automatedly with practically free material rather than 500 pound on more expensive material that is more labour intesive as it's not as automated as plastic.
It's simple business. Gw doesn't care about balance. It's just manipulating what people buy.
But, it's bad business to limit forgeworld like they have done, since it decreases sales. If the only interest would be profits, it would be counter-productive to their interests to phase FW out like they have done, since they are essentially sabotaging the sales of their own products.
Re: the economics of FW stuff, its not just the cost of the manufacturing material that needs to be considered.
The reason FW was created and also why they continue to produce new kits, is that resin casting has a far smaller startup cost than plastic molding for a new kit.
Basically it costs less to use resin to make a model when the number of model kits made is small, and less to use plastic when the number of models kits made is large. Games Workshop long ago discovered that there was a niche market within 40k for players who wanted giant monstrosities to put on the table, and there still is.They know people buy this stuff for reasons other than cut-thoat tabletop performance so they're not scared to price it out of competitive play points wise. It got a bit muddled along the way when FW was given responsibility for supporting 30k, chapter upgrade kits etc, so they produce a lot of smaller kits too. This is why we Custodes players find ourselves in the mess of having to buy half our range from FW.
Its important to note however that the 40k beta rules for the Custodes FW range did NOT come from Forgeworld. They are a product of the main GW rules team, so any nerfing/buffing/updating will be handled probably the same way that most other rule sources are.
GW definitely manipulate balance in order to get their kits selling well, but remember this isn't a typical situation like with a plastic kit. The big money incentive to sell truck loads of kits isn't as strong with Forgeworld resin ones for the reason I mentioned above, so I would hope that in the future, things just get balanced according to how they perform in game, and feedback given.
Edit: But who knows really, GW have proven many times that they sometimes choose to use the headless chicken approach when deciding what to nerf or buff.
Yes I think that's fair to say, I was underwhelmed by the Caladius (assume thats what you mean), comparing it to the old Telemon it has far less shots which initially put me off, but all the extra useful rules and cheaper price really makes it a nice shooty option along with Valoris or a Captain. And certainly durable enough with the invuln and a banner.
Callidus is going to have to take a nerf. For 120 base points it outperforms pretty much everything in it's class. It really needs to be a higher base cost. Fly, PoTMS, Invuln, high strength long range dakka, lotsa dakka....I'd say it's more realistic at 180-200 base. Are we really saying that it should only cost 30-40 points more than Trojan?
The Caladius is a T7 3+/5++ platform. That's a gak defensive statline.
By comparison the Onager has the same defensive statline, a comparable (albeit not 1:1) main gun in either the Neutron or Icarus and PoTMS. It clocks in 100 points less.
100 points for a BS2+, Fly and -2 to charges? Thats reasonable math.
The onnager is 119pts for 11 W T7 3+ 5++ however it has canticles so will often have cover on 2+turns so is functionally a 2+ and it rerolls 1's on its invul save
Compareing 2 neutron onager at 238 to a calladius is a closer example
The onager outperforms it defensively 22w-14 better save better invul
The onager can also if stygies have a -1 without paying for the banner
Meanwhile the onagers main gun replaces the +1bs with +2S +1AP
And balances half the shots with double the damage
The onager olso has 2 extra stubbers so that 12 boltgun shots for the 2 as a bonus
The onager has 48" range and can move 6" without penalty so both models can shoot the board
So we have fly which is great for objective grabbing late game and the -2 from chargeing but this is at the expense of survivability and shooting.
Im not saying its not competative but it doesnt outclass everything
Wow, this is almost as bad as the Guard apologetics. We can't say there are many tanks out there with 14' fly moves, with the weaponry this thing boasts, for 210 points.
Sure, it's outclassed by things, but the max potential of this thing, -1 to hit, and re-rolling 1s with a captain around, or wounds with Trojan. I mean, come on. It's not the Castellan of old, but it's pretty cheese for 210 points. This can be abused, and needs to be prevented from doing so. Points are the best way.
You really, really dont want to open the can of worms that is "well if you give this thing hundreds of points worth of support its super effective, and therefore is OP and must be nerfed into uselessness". Do that and you're calling for nerfs to well, everything.
But then again simple non-histrionic logic isnt exactly your strong suit. So here we are.
I feel the Caladius is undercosted, but not by a lot. You pump it up 100 points and it's basically useless in a competitive sense. 20 points is probably about right in my opinion.
Since you can't come up with any lists that don't include a Shield Captain, or a Praetor, I'll just go ahead and state you can't, and I'm right on that.
You brought up "death star". Ok, here's a strawman, beat it to death, because that's about the totality of your skill in arguing here. I never brought up death stars. And for the record, I don't think you know what a "death star" is in relation to 40k.
3 HW, 1 HQ, and 1 Elite hardly constitute a death star.
Now that I've beaten you on two points, please come back to the point. What argument is there to justify keeping the Callidus in the same points level it's at currently?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Since you can't come up with any lists that don't include a Shield Captain, or a Praetor, I'll just go ahead and state you can't, and I'm right on that.
You brought up "death star". Ok, here's a strawman, beat it to death, because that's about the totality of your skill in arguing here. I never brought up death stars.
You're literally bringing them up earlier on this page. Right here:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Wow, this is almost as bad as the Guard apologetics. We can't say there are many tanks out there with 14' fly moves, with the weaponry this thing boasts, for 210 points.
Sure, it's outclassed by things,but the max potential of this thing, -1 to hit, and re-rolling 1s with a captain around, or wounds with Trojan. I mean, come on. It's not the Castellan of old, but it's pretty cheese for 210 points. This can be abused, and needs to be prevented from doing so. Points are the best way.
When that's half of a list, it absolutely does. But this is the person who thinks 150 points of SoS makes an army immune to mortal wounds so its no surprise that you have a tenuous at best grip on reality.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Now that I've beaten you on two points, please come back to the point. What argument is there to justify keeping the Callidus in the same points level it's at currently?
Yes, I bow to your superior ability to be completely incoherent and not know what the hell you're talking about.
As to your question, the Caladius is decently costed for what it brings to the table: reliability. It is inherently squishy, not particularly lethal in relation to other heavy armor, and not the most mobile platform around. But as long as its on the table it *will* contribute and can't be ignored.
While seeing a unit used in every competitive army is definitely a way to measure if its a good unit, it is by far not an overpowered or undercosted unit.
It preforms better than most custodes units because most custodes units are overcosted.
If bikes are considered the best things in the codex, why are terminators the same cost when they are obviously not as good.
Deep strike is nice, but its not worth the same points as +1 toughness and a 14" fly move. Oh termies also happen to be supremely outclassed in anti-horde capabilities because they don't have a hurricane bolter.
All versions of termies need to be cheaper by 5-10 points, even the forgeworld ones, because they die just as easy. They pay more points for their weapons anyway.
Custodian guard need to be cheaper as well because they never make their points back unless they get lucky on their saves.
As to your question, the Caladius is decently costed for what it brings to the table: reliability. It is inherently squishy, not particularly lethal in relation to other heavy armor, and not the most mobile platform around. But as long as its on the table it *will* contribute and can't be ignored.
How do you reckon it's decently costed?
I posted this on reddit, but it's equally relevant here:
It's closest imperial comparison would be a Tank Commander w/ Battle Cannon and 3x Heavy Bolters. That Tank Commander costs 188 points, the Caladius costs 22 points more. For that cost, you get:
+1 Ballistic Skill
5+ Invuln Save
fixed 8 shots instead of random 2D6 (even with re-rolls, I'd take a flat 8)
-3 AP instead of -2 AP Fly keyword
+2 wounds
SIGNIFICANTLY more manuverable... 14" move and fire at full effect, if the russ moves at all it has a penalty on sponsons, moving more than 5" means you lose half your main cannon firepower.
-2 to enemy charge rolls against it
The cost of all this?
-1 toughness (almost always mitigated by a Vixilia Magnfica for -1 to hit)
22 poitns.
Yea... this unit needs a price hike.
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Sterling191 wrote: The Caladius is a T7 3+/5++ platform. That's a gak defensive statline.
By comparison the Onager has the same defensive statline, a comparable (albeit not 1:1) main gun in either the Neutron or Icarus and PoTMS. It clocks in 100 points less.
100 points for a BS2+, Fly and -2 to charges? Thats reasonable math.
The Str 8 AP -3 D3 damage from the Caladius is in no way comparable to the Onager.
The Neutron laser is D3 shots... so generally 2 shots. 1/4 the number of shots, and it doesn't have the back up Str6 AP-2 Heavy 6 guns of the Caladius.
The Icarus array is also worse against all targets. -1 BS vs all tanks, and mostly autocannon equivalent shells or weaker... while the Caladius is firing battlecannon rounds with better AP.
Not if your looking at one onager, which is significantly cheaper.
2 onagers is closer to the proper price, and puts out a far more comparable damage, in fact better damage againgst targets with 3/6/9 wounds as their big gun never does less than 3 damage and can do 6.
Lemon russ isn't comparable because you can take 12 lemon russ's in an army whereas the calidius can only be taken 3 of.
Eihnlazer wrote: Not if your looking at one onager, which is significantly cheaper.
2 onagers is closer to the proper price, and puts out a far more comparable damage, in fact better damage againgst targets with 3/6/9 wounds as their big gun never does less than 3 damage and can do 6.
Lemon russ isn't comparable because you can take 12 lemon russ's in an army whereas the calidius can only be taken 3 of.
Nobody takes Leman Russ in a tournament list, you only take Tank Commanders. Those are a 0-3 choice, unless you take Pask, then you can get 4. At most.
2 Dunecrawlers is about the same damage done as 1 caladius... Consider firing against a Knight.
2 Neutron laser Onagers will do average 3.556 damage against a Knight with a 4++ invuln, assuming you roll average of 4 damage.
1 Caladius will do on average 3.333 damage against a Knight with a 4++ invuln.
2 Dunecrawlers have more wounds, but are very vulnerable to melee, and much less manuverability, and you can only take 3 per army, so 3 Caladius have significantly more firepower.
A more interesting comparison is to throw plasma cannons on the tank commander (192 points), and make it either Tallarn (no move+shoot penalty) or Catachan (re-rollable number of shots). Remember that the Tank Commander will always be re-rolling 1s to hit thanks to the orders it will be giving itself.
Eihnlazer wrote: Not if your looking at one onager, which is significantly cheaper.
2 onagers is closer to the proper price, and puts out a far more comparable damage, in fact better damage againgst targets with 3/6/9 wounds as their big gun never does less than 3 damage and can do 6.
Lemon russ isn't comparable because you can take 12 lemon russ's in an army whereas the calidius can only be taken 3 of.
Nobody takes Leman Russ in a tournament list, you only take Tank Commanders. Those are a 0-3 choice, unless you take Pask, then you can get 4. At most.
2 Dunecrawlers is about the same damage done as 1 caladius... Consider firing against a Knight.
2 Neutron laser Onagers will do average 3.556 damage against a Knight with a 4++ invuln, assuming you roll average of 4 damage.
1 Caladius will do on average 3.333 damage against a Knight with a 4++ invuln.
2 Dunecrawlers have more wounds, but are very vulnerable to melee, and much less manuverability, and you can only take 3 per army, so 3 Caladius have significantly more firepower.
so yes pts per effectiveness dunecrawlers are better in terms of shooting defence and will have shot up some squishy guard squad with their stubbers as a bonus they also dont need the maneuvarabilty due to huge range
the rule of 3 is the limitation on dunecrawlers but its not admechs only AV
Saying that dunecrawlers don't need maneuverability due to huge range is disengenuous at best. 14" fly move is so ridiculously amazing that anything else in this game is horrible compared to that. It's nearly impossible to hide from a vehicle like that, while against a Dunecrawler any good table will have big LOS blocking terrain pieces you can use to your advantage.
Besides, Dunecrawlers with Neutron Lasers are nearly equal point for point with the Caladius against Knights, but the Caladius does much better against heavy infantry and light tanks. The Icarus Array Dunecrawler does pretty well against light infantry, but the Caladius is better, and also better against all other targets.
The Caladius is just good against everything, impossible to hide against, and has literally zero weaknesses... and is priced a solid 30-40 points too low for how good it is.
Okay typing from my phone here so I'll keep this short. The grab-tank is great for its points but I do not think it needs a price hike if anything some of the other need price reductions of 10 or so points and gechicles need a back out and shoot at -1.
Man it is going to get extremely confusing if every keeps referring to this tank as the Callidus. Especially when the Callidus assassin is also a competitive unit
I think the Caladius has distinct weaknesses. It is only T7/3+/5++ so it's actually fairly squishy as far as competitive tanks go. It's got about the same armor as a chaos decimator or relic contemptor, both of which are significantly cheaper for similar firepower. Most gunlines should have the tools to take one down in one turn. And even when it survives, it's 200 pts that only outputs 8 shots a turn which isn't that scary unless it shoots every turn for 3-4+ turns.
As a chaos player I'm used to paying 140pts for decimators that have the same number of S8 shots on a T7/5++ body. Decimators go down like paper.
Would I pay 60pts more for 60" range, fly, and significantly better BS at all wound brackets? Maybe. Depends on the rest of my list. But it ends up being a much more expensive way to buy S8 shots compared to cheap 140pt decimators, or even 293pt butcher leviathans (the latter having way more durability and significantly cheaper S8 shots compared to a Caladius).
I'd love to see someone run a pure Custodes list with bike spam + 3x Caladius. 24 S8 shots for 600pts.... isn't amazing. But then you compensate for that with shield captains...
Slave entity, your decimators have what, 8 wounds? A Caladius grav tank has 14. If it had like 10 wounds or so, fine, I'd agree, it's a glass cannon. But 14 wounds T7 / 3+/5++ with an easy way to make it -1 to hit is not very fragile.
It's not even really a glass cannon since it's not at all heavily armed for its points. I think it's a solidly competitive, high mobility medium tank in terms of survivability and firepower.
A 40pt increase would put the Caladius at over 80% the cost of a tsons butcher leviathan which is T8 2+/5++, BS2, double the firepower, easily buffed by Ahriman to -1 to hit, 1+/4++. And while tsons levis are competitive, they aren't exactly dominating the meta, even with significantly more durability/firepower per point compared to a Caladius.
Fly is definitely really good but 8 shots just isn't that much for 200pts.
You could also compare the offensive/defensive output of 2 Caladius tanks to the dual avenger gatling Chaos knight. The chaos knight is way scarier and only appears occasionally in competitive games.
I think you're underestimating fly and 14" move, and just how good that is. A Tsons Levi, I can lock down its shooting in close combat. The Caladius doesn't have that weakness, it cannot be locked in melee. It may not increase its firepower, but it's a great rule that should have a cost associated with it, not be something it just gets for free. The Caladius may only have 8 main gun shots, but its backup gun is what, heavy 6 str 6 AP-2, right? That's nothing to sneeze at.
Definitely agree that 14" fly is the main strength and I have underestimated that before. It will never stop shooting and can move-block stuff with its massive hull.
I mean, yeah the Caladius is pretty good for its points, but the comparisons shown here only really show that its comparable to other options in the Imperium. Only slightly different in relative value for points
A banner and Valoris/Shield captain really turn it up to 11 as well, but make sure you remember that in order to do that, you basically have to spend 300 points in babysitters.
Maybe the points could go up a tad, but I wouldn't be surprised if you get some hostile reactions in the Custodes tactics thread when you suggest that it be increased by 80 points, as some have said. That would just push it into the "never gets played" pile.
Ok, so again, everyone is stating you need a 300pt tax to play these guys. You can't make a list with these guys without an HQ, and every HQ gives the re-roll aura, so that is a given. The Praetor, well, that is 114pts minimum which isn't that much to ask for a -1 to hit buff.
As a custodes player, I would give these guys a auto-include upto about 250 points with the stock cannons. Or a 40pt increase.
slave.entity wrote: Definitely agree that 14" fly is the main strength and I have underestimated that before. It will never stop shooting and can move-block stuff with its massive hull.
Will be interesting to see how the meta reacts.
It’s kind of like a Custodes biker: take your stock space marine/imperial thing and make it +1 in everything. You get a unit that is tough, fast, and hits hard. It’s hard to cost that, and it ends up not having the same weaknesses of some similarly costed units. I think that the meta will find a way to kill it though
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Ok, so again, everyone is stating you need a 300pt tax to play these guys. You can't make a list with these guys without an HQ, and every HQ gives the re-roll aura, so that is a given. The Praetor, well, that is 114pts minimum which isn't that much to ask for a -1 to hit buff.
As a custodes player, I would give these guys a auto-include upto about 250 points with the stock cannons. Or a 40pt increase.
As a custodes player I would say not to nerf these unless they make some of our other units cheaper. Right now that tank is proping up custodes to decent level. Also while very good unlike something like the Castellean which I agreed with the nerfs for that was because it was nigh impossible to deal with. There was no really effective way to deal with in a point for point basis. Now our grav-tank on the other hand is no where near so durable. And while it does have great mobility and thankfully fly to let it function. If you are saying it one of the few usable vehicles then I say thats more damning of Vehicles in general then saying that the grav tank is too good.
Had a short home kitchen table game against my mates brand new CSM list.
I was using -
Valoris
Bike captain, standard stuff, salvo
3x3 dudes 1s&b
Vexillor
2x4 bikes, 2 salvo + 2 hurricane in each
Telemon.
Pretty basic, just cobbled it together as I had time for a game.
His list was something like:
Discordant, 3 maulers, ex champ, apostle, prince w wings, with 3x5 marines + 3x10 cultists in two Corsairs battalion
And an alpha legion spearhead of another prince, a rhino , 3x5 havocs(chain,las,auto) and a rhino
Chose to play tactical gambit because it's fun- adds another edge to the game, and as it's at home, its always go big or gohome . Used hammer and anvil. He deployed his core of maulers on the right, centre havocs, and on the left was his screens.
I deployed so everything was -1 to hit, but spread out so one squad of bikes flanked my right with the captain, the other squad flanking left behind a big terrain bit.
I failed to seize, he went first. Importantly, he made the centre bricked with vehicles and got 1 to a first turn charge into one squad and some bikes (his leftish, my rightish, near centre. Only killed a bike and the SS dude. Not bad.
My turn 1 I jumped out with the captain to go at the discordant and champion holding center hoping to get rid of his rerolls to wound. Bikes flanked around left hitting a mauler a prince and the rhino to no avail. Core moved up, got charges off with everything. Lots of killing and chopping, both left depleted.
From there it was a true scrap in the centre of the board, with the telemon licking off the odd squad of havocs and the custodes getting smashed in the middle.
By the end of round 3 all his maulers were dead as well as both princes and the discordant, with me set up for a nice next turn charge.
Unfortunately we ran out of time there, but with me doubling him in points 16-8 we called it a win for me. The next wave of havocs and the like would have definitely hurt me, but with a little left (couple members of each guards squad, vexulla, valoris and the dread) ig was looking good for the bringers of the emporers justice.
In reflection,, mauler fiends are tough. Thought to move, tough to be in combat with. And double firing ahtocannond bring the pain. They killed the whole second squad of bikes in one round.
He's got a strong list, now needs to learn how to use it properly and make some refinements.
Enjoyed the game, a needed break from my pointy eared sadists from the new army which my opponent really hates
I think we're fine as a mono faction in a casual environment, and a very fun army to use. Tough nuts to crack alot of the time.
Cheers guys, hopefully you enjoyed my first attempt at a battle report
So, my experience has been they are extremely hard to remove from the table, which sets up really long games, which is fun. I have played 6 games so far, and every time I have almost my complete army heading into the 3rd turn.
I just know when I play against GSC I will get wrecked though. Too many good weaknesses for them to exploit.
Me: Please don't mind control my Telemon....
Them: No.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, my experience has been they are extremely hard to remove from the table, which sets up really long games, which is fun. I have played 6 games so far, and every time I have almost my complete army heading into the 3rd turn.
I just know when I play against GSC I will get wrecked though. Too many good weaknesses for them to exploit.
Me: Please don't mind control my Telemon....
Them: No.
Don't know about anything else, but just have one model stand next to telemon, and you will be pretty safe.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, my experience has been they are extremely hard to remove from the table, which sets up really long games, which is fun. I have played 6 games so far, and every time I have almost my complete army heading into the 3rd turn.
I just know when I play against GSC I will get wrecked though. Too many good weaknesses for them to exploit.
Me: Please don't mind control my Telemon....
Them: No.
Don't know about anything else, but just have one model stand next to telemon, and you will be pretty safe.
When did range factor into Mind Control? They have to shoot the closest model now? I didn't know that. I thought they could make one shooting attack/melee attack against any model they can see? And that means a dead unit.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, my experience has been they are extremely hard to remove from the table, which sets up really long games, which is fun. I have played 6 games so far, and every time I have almost my complete army heading into the 3rd turn.
I just know when I play against GSC I will get wrecked though. Too many good weaknesses for them to exploit.
Me: Please don't mind control my Telemon....
Them: No.
Don't know about anything else, but just have one model stand next to telemon, and you will be pretty safe.
When did range factor into Mind Control? They have to shoot the closest model now? I didn't know that. I thought they could make one shooting attack/melee attack against any model they can see? And that means a dead unit.
Shooting range has nothing to do with it, if the Telemon is standing within 1" of your model it's considered in close combat then, because it's within 1" of an "enemy" model, since the opponent controls it. It cannot shoot you the.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, my experience has been they are extremely hard to remove from the table, which sets up really long games, which is fun. I have played 6 games so far, and every time I have almost my complete army heading into the 3rd turn.
I just know when I play against GSC I will get wrecked though. Too many good weaknesses for them to exploit.
Me: Please don't mind control my Telemon....
Them: No.
Don't know about anything else, but just have one model stand next to telemon, and you will be pretty safe.
When did range factor into Mind Control? They have to shoot the closest model now? I didn't know that. I thought they could make one shooting attack/melee attack against any model they can see? And that means a dead unit.
Shooting range has nothing to do with it, if the Telemon is standing within 1" of your model it's considered in close combat then, because it's within 1" of an "enemy" model, since the opponent controls it. It cannot shoot you the.
Just shoot me. I'm too dumb to live.
But then he will melee that unit, which will still die or be severely crippled. Maybe a Sister of silence squad...
Take it with a pair of Storm Cannons, it only has 4 attacks in melee, Str 8 but no AP and only 1 damage... not really a serious threat to any Custodes model.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, my experience has been they are extremely hard to remove from the table, which sets up really long games, which is fun. I have played 6 games so far, and every time I have almost my complete army heading into the 3rd turn.
I just know when I play against GSC I will get wrecked though. Too many good weaknesses for them to exploit.
Me: Please don't mind control my Telemon....
Them: No.
Don't know about anything else, but just have one model stand next to telemon, and you will be pretty safe.
When did range factor into Mind Control? They have to shoot the closest model now? I didn't know that. I thought they could make one shooting attack/melee attack against any model they can see? And that means a dead unit.
Shooting range has nothing to do with it, if the Telemon is standing within 1" of your model it's considered in close combat then, because it's within 1" of an "enemy" model, since the opponent controls it. It cannot shoot you the.
Just shoot me. I'm too dumb to live.
But then he will melee that unit, which will still die or be severely crippled. Maybe a Sister of silence squad...
Another little known fact about mind control is that you are only allowed to make a single melee attack when controlled.
Hey question for you. My friend plays dark angels and tends to run a 10 man hellblaster squad with Azrael and a LT for rerolls. Azrael lets them reroll everything of course, and also gives them a 4++ invuln save. He also runs a banner which allows them to shoot/fight when they die on a 3+. Between overcharge and Weapons from the Dark Age, they do 3 damage, so are super lethal to my doods in theory.
How would you best crack this unit? My gut says concussion grenades from Allarus to deny overwatch, and then beat the hell out of them in melee. But that 4++ blunts a lot of our power weapons.
iGuy91 wrote: Hey question for you. My friend plays dark angels and tends to run a 10 man hellblaster squad with Azrael and a LT for rerolls. Azrael lets them reroll everything of course, and also gives them a 4++ invuln save. He also runs a banner which allows them to shoot/fight when they die on a 3+. Between overcharge and Weapons from the Dark Age, they do 3 damage, so are super lethal to my doods in theory.
How would you best crack this unit? My gut says concussion grenades from Allarus to deny overwatch, and then beat the hell out of them in melee. But that 4++ blunts a lot of our power weapons.
Thoughts?
shoot them with bikes, charge them with a Shield captain biker, then slaughter in melee. It's simple, but it pretty much sums up the entire Custodes manual. Shoot, Charge, Melee. Rinse Repeat.
However, their banner will let the hellblasters fire back at me when i shoot them, and then again, rerolling all misses on overwatch. (Assuming 6 bikes, thats roughly 5 hellblasters, half of them rapid fire back, roughly 6-7 saves to make in kind. Then overwatch is maybe another 4-5 saves to make.
I won't have much left of my bikes at that point. In fact, i think that i'd lose that trade point wise.
Try taking an Assassin. An Eversor or Calidus would work great. They could assault the Hellblasters hopefully from out of line of sight of them (or the Eversor is probably durable enough to survive being overwatched by them) and tie them up, so your Custodes can get in there without casualties.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Well, no. Math Hammer gives 1.63 wounds taken off a Shield captain on a Jet bike.
12 shots, hitting on 6s, not overcharged, will likely never kill a SCjet Bike.
Its an Azrael Hellblaster star. They're going to be overcharged (and likely backed by an Apothecary that'll bring them back when they inevitably self-immolate). Its also 50/50 whether they're gonna pop WotDA if you're sending in bikes. Thats more than enough firepower to slag at least one 4++ bike in Overwatch, and dangerously close to annihilating a 3++ bike cappy. Flat 3 damage makes the equation excruciatingly swingy. Bonus points for the hilarity the banner introduces to the equation, as any model that does explode doubles its firepower, and also screws with your charge distance.
Horst wrote: Try taking an Assassin. An Eversor or Calidus would work great. They could assault the Hellblasters hopefully from out of line of sight of them (or the Eversor is probably durable enough to survive being overwatched by them) and tie them up, so your Custodes can get in there without casualties.
Eversor dropping out of LoS if possible, then using the 3d6 charge to get in would get my vote. That said, if you're playing the disruptor game, a Callidus can make WotDA prohibitively expensive.
Ok, help me with the math then, because I'm not sure what I'm missing. Even at 3 damage, still it would take 3 rounds of shooting to kill a Biker captain.
Assuming a 9-inch charge at an oblique angle against a full squad with a 15" rapid fire range, you're looking at ~15 shots (probably more depending on how they're arranged, that additional range the plasma incinerators get is MURDER). Plus you're not factoring in the LT buff in the Azzy castle.
Remember, you're dealing with a flat 3 damage hit here if WotDA is in play. That makes averages of hits/wounds via probabilities far less reliable. Especially with a Banner in the equation.
And you are *not* wiping a 10-man Primaris squad sporting a 4++, in cover, plus or minus a Darkshroud (and lets face it, if its an Azzy star, there's gonna be a Darkshroud), with a single bike cappy. Even with combined shooting and stabbing.
Each Hellblaster has 2 shots (with 15" Rapid Fire range, if you want a good charge, you ain't avoiding the two shots) hitting on 6s, rerolling; wounding on 3s, rerolling 1s. I'll assume the banner is out of range, so they only die on a 1, but if they DO die, they shoot again on a 3+, hitting on a 3+ (due to how GW rules it).
2 shots 11/18 hits, with a 335/1,296 chance of dying (I'll calculate at the end) 77/162 wounds .475 wounds
335/648 shots from death 335/729 hits 2,345/6,561 wounds .357 wounds
Total of .832 wounds per Hellblaster. Times 1.5 for normal Bikes (3 damage but a 4++ save) for 1.248 damage per Hellblaster, or needing 3-4 Hellblasters shooting to kill a Bike.
Against a Captain with a 3++ but no VotBG, it's .832 damage per Hellblaster, or about eight and a half to kill him.
Where are you getting 11/18 hits? On 6's? Thats 3/18, w/ re-rolls that's only 5/11. So of those 5 hits, wounding on 3s, 3 get through. and 2 are wiped out by the invuln. So 1 shot, for overwatch.
This is strictly overwatch. I am not factoring in all the future phases. The captain will survive overwatch of 18 shots from these guys.
Again, unless there is some stupid rule that lets them overwatch on 5+, they aren't killing anything close to a Biker Captain.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Where are you getting 11/18 hits? On 6's? Thats 3/18, w/ re-rolls that's only 5/11. So of those 5 hits, wounding on 3s, 3 get through. and 2 are wiped out by the invuln. So 1 shot, for overwatch.
This is strictly overwatch. I am not factoring in all the future phases. The captain will survive overwatch of 18 shots from these guys.
Again, unless there is some stupid rule that lets them overwatch on 5+, they aren't killing anything close to a Biker Captain.
5/6 chance of missing.
Multiply that by itself to get the total odds of missing with a reroll, for 25/36 chance of missing.
Subtract that from 1 to get your odds of hitting, for 11/36.
With 2 shots, that's 22/36, or 11/18 hits per Hellblaster on Overwatch.
It's an 11/18 chance of making ONE hit per model. Not an 11/18 chance to hit per shot. You're also once again not factoring in the banner, or the LT buff (the former of which is the massive force multiplier that nearly doubles damage output).
Sterling191 wrote: It's an 11/18 chance of making ONE hit per model. Not an 11/18 chance to hit per shot. You're also once again not factoring in the banner, or the LT buff (the former of which is the massive force multiplier that nearly doubles damage output).
Yeah. When I put it in with all the appropriate buffs (except the banner) I get 4.278 damage from 18 shots.
JNAProductions wrote: Yeah. When I put it in with all the appropriate buffs (except the banner) I get 4.278 damage from 18 shots.
I want to once again re-emphasize how, when dealing with flat damage weapons of greater than 1 damage, probabilistic models become much more variable as the damage value increases. All it takes is a slight shift in overwatch dice overperforming and you're suddenly putting a dozen damage through.
The bottom line is that there is a significant non-zero chance of your bike cappy getting atomized on the charge in this particular scenario. Which makes him absolutely not an ideal choice as a counterplay.
JNAProductions wrote: Yeah. When I put it in with all the appropriate buffs (except the banner) I get 4.278 damage from 18 shots.
I want to once again re-emphasize how, when dealing with flat damage weapons of greater than 1 damage, probabilistic models become much more variable as the damage value increases. All it takes is a slight shift in overwatch dice overperforming and you're suddenly putting a dozen damage through.
True. TO ANYDICE!
5 Hellblasters gives you a just under 4% chance of killing a Captain.
6 gives just over 6%.
7 gives just under 10%.
8 gives nearly 13%.
9 gives almost 17%.
10 gives over 20%.
Here's the link to the program for a single Hellblaster.
And once again, no Banner. That MASSIVELY ups the damage.
JNAProductions wrote: Yeah. When I put it in with all the appropriate buffs (except the banner) I get 4.278 damage from 18 shots.
I want to once again re-emphasize how, when dealing with flat damage weapons of greater than 1 damage, probabilistic models become much more variable as the damage value increases. All it takes is a slight shift in overwatch dice overperforming and you're suddenly putting a dozen damage through.
The bottom line is that there is a significant non-zero chance of your bike cappy getting atomized on the charge in this particular scenario. Which makes him absolutely not an ideal choice as a counterplay.
Yup. It's statistically not likely, but we've all seen someone roll 5-6 6's out of 20. It's not uncommon enough that I'd feel safe risking a captain on it not happening.
Actually, the ideal solution here is to use an Allied Guard detachment. Take a Guard Detachment w/ the Emperor's Wrath Artillery Company, and either a Basilisk or a Wyvern. Use the stratagem for "Suppression Fire" to prevent the enemy from being able to overwatch.
Primaris Suppressors are a similar countermeasure (albeit not nearly as competitive of one). Run em as Raven Guard and they mitigate one of the major Primaris weaknesses vs. Dark Angels (vulnerability to plasma-like weapons). Less reliable as they need a kill to lock down overwatch, but if you dont want to run Guard theyre an option, and probably a whole lot cheaper ($$$) to acquire than bassies.
JNAProductions wrote: Yeah. When I put it in with all the appropriate buffs (except the banner) I get 4.278 damage from 18 shots.
I want to once again re-emphasize how, when dealing with flat damage weapons of greater than 1 damage, probabilistic models become much more variable as the damage value increases. All it takes is a slight shift in overwatch dice overperforming and you're suddenly putting a dozen damage through.
The bottom line is that there is a significant non-zero chance of your bike cappy getting atomized on the charge in this particular scenario. Which makes him absolutely not an ideal choice as a counterplay.
I think a better option is to kill them from range...long range. That unit is a substantial points investment, and a significant chunk of their firepower...so kill them with Caladius tanks before they get in range and this be unable to shoot back when they die. A single accelerator cannon with a shield captain nearby puts 3-4 D3 dmg wounds (after saves) on the hellblasters, you get another 2 dmg from the bolt cannon. Running the triple-tank spearhead you can kill almost all of them in a single volley, after which your bikes/termies can go in and kill the other stuff.
greyknight12 wrote: I think a better option is to kill them from range...long range. That unit is a substantial points investment, and a significant chunk of their firepower...so kill them with Caladius tanks before they get in range and this be unable to shoot back when they die. A single accelerator cannon with a shield captain nearby puts 3-4 D3 dmg wounds (after saves) on the hellblasters, you get another 2 dmg from the bolt cannon. Running the triple-tank spearhead you can kill almost all of them in a single volley, after which your bikes/termies can go in and kill the other stuff.
Thats fair.
Also makes me wish I had 3 of those bad boys. That castle is a nasty piece of work.
Could probably make it happen as well with a pair of telemon dreds.
Thats fair.
Also makes me wish I had 3 of those bad boys. That castle is a nasty piece of work.
Could probably make it happen as well with a pair of telemon dreds.
To this i say why not both? my current list has 2 Telemon and 3 Grav tanks
Thats fair.
Also makes me wish I had 3 of those bad boys. That castle is a nasty piece of work.
Could probably make it happen as well with a pair of telemon dreds.
To this i say why not both? my current list has 2 Telemon and 3 Grav tanks
Noob question here:
I keep seeing people mix other armies in with their Custodes. When this happens, do those Custodes still get the "Emperor's Chosen" and "Sworn Guardians" rules? I guess what I'm trying to ask is - doesn't "Battle Forged" mean you have to be a pure army?
_SeeD_ wrote: Noob question here:
I keep seeing people mix other armies in with their Custodes. When this happens, do those Custodes still get the "Emperor's Chosen" and "Sworn Guardians" rules? I guess what I'm trying to ask is - doesn't "Battle Forged" mean you have to be a pure army?
Battleforged only applies to detachments, not armies, at least in the sense you're thinking. So if I have a detachments of Imperial Guard and one of Custodes, the army is battleforged and they each get their bonuses.
_SeeD_ wrote: Noob question here:
I keep seeing people mix other armies in with their Custodes. When this happens, do those Custodes still get the "Emperor's Chosen" and "Sworn Guardians" rules? I guess what I'm trying to ask is - doesn't "Battle Forged" mean you have to be a pure army?
Battleforged only applies to detachments, not armies, at least in the sense you're thinking. So if I have a detachments of Imperial Guard and one of Custodes, the army is battleforged and they each get their bonuses.
_SeeD_ wrote: Noob question here:
I keep seeing people mix other armies in with their Custodes. When this happens, do those Custodes still get the "Emperor's Chosen" and "Sworn Guardians" rules? I guess what I'm trying to ask is - doesn't "Battle Forged" mean you have to be a pure army?
Battleforged only applies to detachments, not armies, at least in the sense you're thinking. So if I have a detachments of Imperial Guard and one of Custodes, the army is battleforged and they each get their bonuses.
OK, so when are armies not Battle Forged?
All armies must be linked by one shared keyword. So if I took a detachment from the Imperium and ia detachment from craftworld that would not be a battle forged army. An army can be battleforged but still lose its chapter tactic. An example of this would be if I took one detachment and in that single detachment I placed space wolves and blood angels. This is a legal detachment that is Battle forged because they are unified by the adeptus astartes keyword but it is not a pure to detachment so they lose their chapter tactic.
_SeeD_ wrote: Noob question here:
I keep seeing people mix other armies in with their Custodes. When this happens, do those Custodes still get the "Emperor's Chosen" and "Sworn Guardians" rules? I guess what I'm trying to ask is - doesn't "Battle Forged" mean you have to be a pure army?
Battleforged only applies to detachments, not armies, at least in the sense you're thinking. So if I have a detachments of Imperial Guard and one of Custodes, the army is battleforged and they each get their bonuses.
OK, so when are armies not Battle Forged?
All armies must be linked by one shared keyword. So if I took a detachment from the Imperium and ia detachment from craftworld that would not be a battle forged army. An army can be battleforged but still lose its chapter tactic. An example of this would be if I took one detachment and in that single detachment I placed space wolves and blood angels. This is a legal detachment that is Battle forged because they are unified by the adeptus astartes keyword but it is not a pure to detachment so they lose their chapter tactic.
For this list I'd give up the flexibility of the Assassin stratagem and just pick one. Slap him in an Auxiliary detachment for 1CP. If you go 2 for Operative, I wouldn't also spend 2 on Blood Games.
If you do use Operative, consider using the Moment Shackle right away unless you're planning to use Stopping Dive, in which case use it then
Question hive mind. What flavor of contemptor drednought do you think is best? I'm leaning towards getting a Contemptor-Achillus, and keeping it cheap with the stormbolters, or maybe the flamers.
Um, there is really no competition in the Dreadnaught department. It's Telemon or bust. If you want flavor the contemptor with a glaive is pretty bamf.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Um, there is really no competition in the Dreadnaught department. It's Telemon or bust. If you want flavor the contemptor with a glaive is pretty bamf.
Basically this. The Telemon is the competitive dreadnought. If you're determined to take a Contemptor, the Achillus is probably best (currently). One of the testers for this (inControl) thought the Galatus was going to have S12 or so on his sword instead of the S7 he ended up with, so it's possible his strength will be buffed in the future, which would probably make him better than the Achillus.
I might also add that if you are dead set on using Dreadnaughts, you are playing thematically, and meta doesn't really matter. Use the model that makes you happy and call it whatever you want. I'm sure if you called your contemptor a counts as Telemon in my store, you'd be just fine. It's not like it's getting confused with anything in the Custodes line up
I'm looking to add some hard-hitting firepower to my Custodes, and I'd prefer not to use Caladiuses because, as has been noted before, of their prohibitive pricing. What would be the best course to go? A Knight? Some Leman Russes? Some Onager Dunecrawlers? Thanks.
Um, staying inside the Custodes for now, a squad of Aquilons with fire pikes and power fists dropping into your opponent's back field has a pucker factor of 11 and causes most people to cry when they see it. 12" heavy flamers and 4 attacks at S10 ap3 damage 3? Yeah, THE QUARTERBACK IS TOAST!
But seriously, the Aquilons are my go to when I want something dead now. Unless it's toughness 10 or greater, in which case I'm dealing with a titan, and why are you allowing your opponent to field a titan?
So I've been on a bit of a binge and have a pretty decent Custodes collection built up, and I'm wondering what would be an effective list for this?
I have the following units at my disposal
Valoris
2x Shield Captains
13x Custodes (5x Sword/Board, 8x Spear)
1x Vexilla
5x Wardens (2x Spear, 3x Axe, 1 can be converted to Vexilla)
2x Achillus Dreadnoughts
3x Aquilon Terminators w. Firepikes
6x Jetbikes (can also be used as Captains)
3x Venatari w. Kinectic/Tarsus
5x Sagittarum Guard
2x Caladius
1x Telemon
I don't want to go too competitive but want to put up a decent fight. My regular opponent runs a mean Tau list which has tabled my Castellan Knights, armoured Guard and Custodes force in the past, using 3x HYMP XV88s, 2x Riptides and a ton of Drones and buffs.
Here's a list I came up with:
Valoris
Jetbike Captain
3x3 Custodes (1x Sword/Board, 2x Spear)
3x Aquilon w. Firepikes
3x Jetbikes
2x Caladius
3x Sagittatum
It seems a bit light on numbers, even by Custodes standards. I'm thinking the firepower should be decent however, 16x S8 DD3 shots from the Caladius, buffed with Valoris should provide a threat to his Broadsides, while the lighter firepower such as the Jetbikes and Sagittarum could go for his Drones.
I don't know how to best counter Tau with Custodes, but against that much shooting, it's best to get in quick for slice and dice mode. You could look at their LoW flying troop ship. It's basically a Thunderhawk with a Callidus strapped to the hull.
-1 to hit Vexillae hurt Tau more than most (50% 33% accuracy penalty), but you're still going to eat a Shadowsun double-Kauyon CnC boosted deathstrike from a Broadside star the first two turns.
Ideally you want to clear the drones before you light up the battlesuits, otherwise savior protocols are gonna seriously blunt whatever you put out. There's a reason the double Riptide + Broadside list is one of the nastiest out there.
Sterling191 wrote: -1 to hit Vexillae hurt Tau more than most (50% accuracy penalty), but you're still going to eat a Shadowsun double-Kauyon CnC boosted deathstrike from a Broadside star the first two turns.
Ideally you want to clear the drones before you light up the battlesuits, otherwise savior protocols are gonna seriously blunt whatever you put out. There's a reason the double Riptide + Broadside list is one of the nastiest out there.
They usually hit on a 4+. That's a 33% penalty, not 50%.
Depends on how you're running your force IMO. You absolutely want one for your Caladii / Telemon castle. If you're sending in a bunch of bikes to try to shut down the suits, you may want to consider dropping one with an MSU allarus team (for the overwatch shutdown strat) plus or minus a Warden team for maximum stabbing.
Ultimately though, it's gonna be a *very* hard match. Tau weapons are pretty universally suited to shredding low-model count armies like Custodes through weight of multi-damage attacks.
I can't say I was too worried about Tau before, but now I am. I was honestly more worried about the Dark Elves, or the pure IG. Tau seemed like more shooty guard, which sounds weird, but other than battle reports I just have never played against them. Which bugs me. They look amazing.
New question: Bikes come with two different types of stands, clear or matte black. Any preference?
When i last played Tau, they struggled to damage my Telemon with a -1 to hit. I also used LOS to really avoid his worst firepower until I got in. Made his big suits leave the castle to come to me, to get LOS.
Technically, the Orion with a Vexilla is -2 to hit, good luck getting a decent number of hits on it until it hurts you. (Shrug)
iGuy91 wrote: When i last played Tau, they struggled to damage my Telemon with a -1 to hit. I also used LOS to really avoid his worst firepower until I got in. Made his big suits leave the castle to come to me, to get LOS.
Technically, the Orion with a Vexilla is -2 to hit, good luck getting a decent number of hits on it until it hurts you. (Shrug)
As a Tau player myself, I can say definitively anything that gives you penalties to an already lackluster BS is crippling. Shadowsun Kauyon can ameliorate this somewhat for two turns, but at the cost of mobility. A Vexilla Magnifica would be nasty against Tau, and pairing this with maybe a backfield of Stygies VIII Dunecrawlers would be basically an autowin. (agianst Tau, definitely not a general-purpose list) Definitely use the From Golden Light stratagem, as turns 1 and 2 are the Tau's best turns, what with Kauyon and all, and denying them shooting against two of your units which can then appear right in their face is scary.
Also, who is using DS on turn 1? And im not going to lie, on super elite armies like the Custodes, not having any models on the table during the first turn is tough to deal with. Especially if you go second. So at most, I might leave a Squad of Regular or FW Terminators in the slot, with maybe a Shield captain? But saying I'm keeping these several squads in the teleporter with a flag, that's like half the army...
greyknight12 wrote: Tau will most likely be rocking full re-rolls to hit, so the -1 is a lot less effective than you’d think.
How? Seriously, how?
Edit: And unless they have Cawl or Abaddon levels of rerolls, they can only reroll 1s, 2s, and 3s.
Kauyon is a full (but not Cawl/Abby-grade) reroll bubble that a Commander can impart for one round of shooting. Shadowsun gets to do it twice. This typically gets paired with the Command and Control Node strategem that allows a battlesuit unit close to a Commander to reroll all wounds.
Bonus points to the Tau sept strat that imparts a +1 to wound after damage is done to a model, and Darkstrider's ability to simply point and give a unit another +1. End result is Missilesides wounding anything T7 and below on 2s, and anything T14 and below on 3s, rerolling.
Its the secret sauce that makes the broadside star so dangerous (and isnt shabby on a Riptide either).
So after some research, still not an expert, but I know a little. Broadsides are wicked expensive for the amount of shooting they put out. If my opponent wants to tie up 600pts in 3 units that maybe take out a squad....go for it.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So after some research, still not an expert, but I know a little. Broadsides are wicked expensive for the amount of shooting they put out. If my opponent wants to tie up 600pts in 3 units that maybe take out a squad....go for it.
A Shadowsun and Darkstrider boosted Missileside star is doing a hell of a lot more than "tak[ing] out a squad". And they go for ~400 these days for a full trio, plus or minus extra equipment and/or drones.
Its a unit that can, by itself, cripple to liquefy a knight per turn depending on how well one rolls on d3s. Dismiss it at your own peril.
Assuming player skills are equal, you'll need to tailor your list a bit, but winning against a Broadsides, Riptides, and Shadowsun list is possible.
The first thing to think about is your backfield. A vindicare would be good against Shadowsun if they're careless with their drones (I once lost a whole game that way) Don't take Caladiuses because they'll get outshot and the Tau are fairly good at killing things that FLY but aren't SUPERSONIC, due to their Velocity Trackers. Dawneagle Shield-Captains are iffy for the same reason, but if they survive the shooting and the overwatch they'll wreak havoc. This actually goes for the whole army. If you can survive the shooting and the overwatch and break into melee range you'll win.
Off the top of my head, I'd say there are a few ways to do this. The first is a Distraction Carnifex. This could be a cheap Knight rushing them, a squad of Dunecrawlers or, if you're strapped for points, a squad of sword-and-board Custodians. It depends on the caliber of your opponent, but I very frequently find myself, when playing Tau, prioritizing targets based not on mission significance, but on what I can shoot most effectively. The second is deepstriking. I would say a 9" charge isn't great when you're facing the sheer devastation Tau overwatch can unleash, but Allarus Concussion grenades can mitigate this a bit if you get some good positioning, but you're still going to be dealing with For the Greater Good. Remember that units that fire Greater Good can't fire overwatch, so if their whole army Greater Goods one of your units (which probably means they kill it), you can charge into a unit that just fired Greater Good with impunity. Make sure you kill enough screening drones in your shooting phase to open gaps so you can get to the juicy targets. Be mindful that Riptides and Crisis suits can FLY, but Broadsides can't.
That's just all killing-wise. Points-wise, be aware that drones have morale 6, so if the other player forgets to position them within 6" of their Ethereal morale attrition could be getting you a Kill More, and maybe even Butcher's Bill. Their infantry is vulnerable, so if they're taking Strike Teams for the CPs, make them regret it. If you want to really lean on cheating soup, spamming Leman Russes can outrange their broadsides, making them move and thus spread out. (I say take Leman Russes but not Caladiuses although Caladiuses are better point-for-point because of the velocity tracker and you can field more Leman Russes. Remember, we're talking about spamming here.)Speaking of which, despite their mobility, movement is not Shadowsun Bubble Tau's friend, so if you're not getting Hold More every turn, something's wrong.
_SeeD_ wrote: OK quick question:
Victor of the Blood Games. Do I get to reroll once during my turn and once during my opponent's turn, or just once per round?
"Use this Stratagem when you set up an ADEPTUS
CUSTODES CHARACTER from your army during
deployment. You can re-roll one hit roll, one wound roll
or one save roll for this model in each turn."
You can reroll once during your turn and once during your opponent's turn.
The best way to beat tau is to outrange them with Telemon and Caladius.
_SeeD_ wrote: OK quick question:
Victor of the Blood Games. Do I get to reroll once during my turn and once during my opponent's turn, or just once per round?
"Use this Stratagem when you set up an ADEPTUS
CUSTODES CHARACTER from your army during
deployment. You can re-roll one hit roll, one wound roll
or one save roll for this model in each turn."
You can reroll once during your turn and once during your opponent's turn.
Well if that's the case, VotBG is an auto include.
_SeeD_ wrote: OK quick question:
Victor of the Blood Games. Do I get to reroll once during my turn and once during my opponent's turn, or just once per round?
"Use this Stratagem when you set up an ADEPTUS
CUSTODES CHARACTER from your army during
deployment. You can re-roll one hit roll, one wound roll
or one save roll for this model in each turn."
You can reroll once during your turn and once during your opponent's turn.
Well if that's the case, VotBG is an auto include.
yeah it's pretty good but only if you can make good use of lot of re-rolls on important rolls. I think it's best use is on a bike captain that has the supirior creation WL trait and the Auric Aquilas that combined with VotBG makes him VERY tough.
_SeeD_ wrote: OK quick question:
Victor of the Blood Games. Do I get to reroll once during my turn and once during my opponent's turn, or just once per round?
"Use this Stratagem when you set up an ADEPTUS
CUSTODES CHARACTER from your army during
deployment. You can re-roll one hit roll, one wound roll
or one save roll for this model in each turn."
You can reroll once during your turn and once during your opponent's turn.
Well if that's the case, VotBG is an auto include.
It sounds really awesome, lots of free re-rolls, but I've stopped using it unless I have heaps of CP:
You pretty much always spend the rerolls on saves right? (most AC characters already reroll everything else pretty much) You have to make 3 save rerolls before taking VotBG becomes better value than just saving the CP for a normal reroll. That means a minimum of 3 rounds of combat where my Shield Captain or Trajaan has been in combat during the game.
I find that if he has been in the thick of combat for this long during the game he has probably killed whatever was a threat to him (i.e forcing him to make the saves), and honestly, if your Custodes have been in combat for 3 turns you're probably close to winning the game.
You do gain the added benefit of being able to double up, and reroll 2 saves in one round for example, if you have to. But you lose access to that 2CP that could have been used in a more efficient way depending on what happens in the mission and how the battle goes. If you character spends all game running around and not fighting anything serious, those CP might've been better used on the unit(s) that were in the thick of fighting.
Definitely not a terrible choice, but I wouldn't say auto-include unless you have heaps of CP. I don't find myself with that many these days, hardly ever even take a battalion.
_SeeD_ wrote: OK quick question:
Victor of the Blood Games. Do I get to reroll once during my turn and once during my opponent's turn, or just once per round?
"Use this Stratagem when you set up an ADEPTUS
CUSTODES CHARACTER from your army during
deployment. You can re-roll one hit roll, one wound roll
or one save roll for this model in each turn."
You can reroll once during your turn and once during your opponent's turn.
Well if that's the case, VotBG is an auto include.
It sounds really awesome, lots of free re-rolls, but I've stopped using it unless I have heaps of CP:
You pretty much always spend the rerolls on saves right? (most AC characters already reroll everything else pretty much) You have to make 3 save rerolls before taking VotBG becomes better value than just saving the CP for a normal reroll. That means a minimum of 3 rounds of combat where my Shield Captain or Trajaan has been in combat during the game.
I find that if he has been in the thick of combat for this long during the game he has probably killed whatever was a threat to him (i.e forcing him to make the saves), and honestly, if your Custodes have been in combat for 3 turns you're probably close to winning the game.
You do gain the added benefit of being able to double up, and reroll 2 saves in one round for example, if you have to. But you lose access to that 2CP that could have been used in a more efficient way depending on what happens in the mission and how the battle goes. If you character spends all game running around and not fighting anything serious, those CP might've been better used on the unit(s) that were in the thick of fighting.
Definitely not a terrible choice, but I wouldn't say auto-include unless you have heaps of CP. I don't find myself with that many these days, hardly ever even take a battalion.
The way I see it, if you run a 5 CP battery, that gives me 9 CP for my particular army. That's 2 for VotBG on my bike captain, 6 for Vexilla Homer and/or Stooping Dive and 1 for Tanglefoot, Concussion, or a Spear/Axe buff.
Also, does anyone else think Aquilon Terminators should have the "Slayer of Tyrants" rule? That would really push me over the edge.
_SeeD_ wrote: OK quick question:
Victor of the Blood Games. Do I get to reroll once during my turn and once during my opponent's turn, or just once per round?
"Use this Stratagem when you set up an ADEPTUS
CUSTODES CHARACTER from your army during
deployment. You can re-roll one hit roll, one wound roll
or one save roll for this model in each turn."
You can reroll once during your turn and once during your opponent's turn.
Well if that's the case, VotBG is an auto include.
It sounds really awesome, lots of free re-rolls, but I've stopped using it unless I have heaps of CP:
You pretty much always spend the rerolls on saves right? (most AC characters already reroll everything else pretty much) You have to make 3 save rerolls before taking VotBG becomes better value than just saving the CP for a normal reroll. That means a minimum of 3 rounds of combat where my Shield Captain or Trajaan has been in combat during the game.
I find that if he has been in the thick of combat for this long during the game he has probably killed whatever was a threat to him (i.e forcing him to make the saves), and honestly, if your Custodes have been in combat for 3 turns you're probably close to winning the game.
You do gain the added benefit of being able to double up, and reroll 2 saves in one round for example, if you have to. But you lose access to that 2CP that could have been used in a more efficient way depending on what happens in the mission and how the battle goes. If you character spends all game running around and not fighting anything serious, those CP might've been better used on the unit(s) that were in the thick of fighting.
Definitely not a terrible choice, but I wouldn't say auto-include unless you have heaps of CP. I don't find myself with that many these days, hardly ever even take a battalion.
The way I see it, if you run a 5 CP battery, that gives me 9 CP for my particular army. That's 2 for VotBG on my bike captain, 6 for Vexilla Homer and/or Stooping Dive and 1 for Tanglefoot, Concussion, or a Spear/Axe buff.
Also, does anyone else think Aquilon Terminators should have the "Slayer of Tyrants" rule? That would really push me over the edge.
I would say no to the Aquilon idea because then there's no point at all to Allarus. The Aquilons are already better in so many ways that it'd just be a total blowout at that point.
On a competitive note, I'm preparing for a tournament, how are my fellow Custodes dealing with the Eldar flyer spam list?
I'm talking about the heavy flyer list rather than the Ravager spam list. So something along the lines of:
3 Crimson Hunter Exarxhs (which re-roll failed wounds against Jetbikes and Caladii and -2 to be Hit thanks to Alaitoc + Hard to Hit)
3 Razorwing Jetfighters
About 6 squads of Guardians/Rangers
Farseers and Warlocks
Audustum wrote: On a competitive note, I'm preparing for a tournament, how are my fellow Custodes dealing with the Eldar flyer spam list?
I'm talking about the heavy flyer list rather than the Ravager spam list. So something along the lines of:
3 Crimson Hunter Exarxhs (which re-roll failed wounds against Jetbikes and Caladii and -2 to be Hit thanks to Alaitoc + Hard to Hit)
3 Razorwing Jetfighters
About 6 squads of Guardians/Rangers
Farseers and Warlocks
Only possibility I see is charging them out of the air with bikes. But the deck is stacked against you.
Audustum wrote: On a competitive note, I'm preparing for a tournament, how are my fellow Custodes dealing with the Eldar flyer spam list?
I'm talking about the heavy flyer list rather than the Ravager spam list. So something along the lines of:
3 Crimson Hunter Exarxhs (which re-roll failed wounds against Jetbikes and Caladii and -2 to be Hit thanks to Alaitoc + Hard to Hit)
3 Razorwing Jetfighters
About 6 squads of Guardians/Rangers
Farseers and Warlocks
Salvo launchers on your bikes have you shooting D3 missiles, hitting flyers on 2s, S7, -1 AP, Dd3. There's also a 1 CP strat that lets you reroll wounds on the Flakburst Missiles from the salvo launchers:
BURST MISSILE NET
Adeptus Custodes Stratagem
Use this Stratagem in your Shooting phase, when
choosing a unit of Vertus Praetors from your army to
make their ranged attacks. If they all fire flakkburst
missiles at the same target with the FLY keyword, you can
re-roll failed wound rolls for these attacks
Audustum wrote: On a competitive note, I'm preparing for a tournament, how are my fellow Custodes dealing with the Eldar flyer spam list?
I'm talking about the heavy flyer list rather than the Ravager spam list. So something along the lines of:
3 Crimson Hunter Exarxhs (which re-roll failed wounds against Jetbikes and Caladii and -2 to be Hit thanks to Alaitoc + Hard to Hit)
3 Razorwing Jetfighters
About 6 squads of Guardians/Rangers
Farseers and Warlocks
3x Caladius tanks, bikes, and Trajann will help; even though they have the re-roll to wound you are -1 to hit. I lost to a flyer list because I went second...and that's basically the main reason; whoever gets the first shooting phase has a big advantage in that matchup. Castle up into the center of the board, and when the flyer box pattern gets too close charge it or at least get inside 12" so they are only -1 to hit. And then hope you roll good, a Telemon instead of a grav tank might be nice for the extra toughness and save.
The ground forces may be inside wave serpents, so harder to kill. If you have the points/CP to drop something like aquilon terminators in their backfield you might mess them up, but in ITC you're probably better off hiding in a magic box and scoring "behind enemy lines". Bottom line, with our low model count you have to kill the flyers. Salvo launchers unfortunately suck against everything else so I'm still undecided on taking them in a tournament when rapid-fire hurricane bolters are almost as good.
Audustum wrote: On a competitive note, I'm preparing for a tournament, how are my fellow Custodes dealing with the Eldar flyer spam list?
I'm talking about the heavy flyer list rather than the Ravager spam list. So something along the lines of:
3 Crimson Hunter Exarxhs (which re-roll failed wounds against Jetbikes and Caladii and -2 to be Hit thanks to Alaitoc + Hard to Hit)
3 Razorwing Jetfighters
About 6 squads of Guardians/Rangers
Farseers and Warlocks
3x Caladius tanks, bikes, and Trajann will help; even though they have the re-roll to wound you are -1 to hit. I lost to a flyer list because I went second...and that's basically the main reason; whoever gets the first shooting phase has a big advantage in that matchup. Castle up into the center of the board, and when the flyer box pattern gets too close charge it or at least get inside 12" so they are only -1 to hit. And then hope you roll good, a Telemon instead of a grav tank might be nice for the extra toughness and save.
The ground forces may be inside wave serpents, so harder to kill. If you have the points/CP to drop something like aquilon terminators in their backfield you might mess them up, but in ITC you're probably better off hiding in a magic box and scoring "behind enemy lines". Bottom line, with our low model count you have to kill the flyers. Salvo launchers unfortunately suck against everything else so I'm still undecided on taking them in a tournament when rapid-fire hurricane bolters are almost as good.
An Icarus Array dunecrawler might help? Even when facing the few armies without anything with FLY, it could score points or absorb fire, and it's pretty cheap
In regards to the VotBG, from the Tactics page of 1d4chan:
Most of time this is going to be used on a Shield Captain. Unless he's taking a negative on his to-hit rolls for some reason, he's already rerolling all his 1's, so you can't spend the reroll there. That leaves only the wound rolls and saves that will ever get used for this. While still AMAZING to have that sort of insurance in your back pocket, for a CP hungry army like this, this (usually) two-option single reroll may not be worth a whole 2CP. Against certain lists it definitely could be, but you should always consider what you're going to get out of it first. If you don't think your shield-captain on jetbike will be threatened by much or have trouble wounding in a certain match, consider saving the 2CP for something else.
I'd spend it on Trojan, and Vexhilla teleport him into the back lines, but it really doesn't do much for Biker captains. With the ammount of dakka getting tossed around in the 8th, it's hard to validate 2cp for a single die roll.
Maybe I'm misplaying it? It's 1 single die, not all the die rolled in the act right? So, it's not all the hurricane bolter shots, it's one single miss.
Most of time this is going to be used on a Shield Captain. Unless he's taking a negative on his to-hit rolls for some reason, he's already rerolling all his 1's, so you can't spend the reroll there. That leaves only the wound rolls and saves that will ever get used for this. While still AMAZING to have that sort of insurance in your back pocket, for a CP hungry army like this, this (usually) two-option single reroll may not be worth a whole 2CP. Against certain lists it definitely could be, but you should always consider what you're going to get out of it first. If you don't think your shield-captain on jetbike will be threatened by much or have trouble wounding in a certain match, consider saving the 2CP for something else.
I'd spend it on Trojan, and Vexhilla teleport him into the back lines, but it really doesn't do much for Biker captains. With the ammount of dakka getting tossed around in the 8th, it's hard to validate 2cp for a single die roll.
Maybe I'm misplaying it? It's 1 single die, not all the die rolled in the act right? So, it's not all the hurricane bolter shots, it's one single miss.
Might be better with a Salvo Launcher Biker then. But (shrug)
Most of time this is going to be used on a Shield Captain. Unless he's taking a negative on his to-hit rolls for some reason, he's already rerolling all his 1's, so you can't spend the reroll there. That leaves only the wound rolls and saves that will ever get used for this. While still AMAZING to have that sort of insurance in your back pocket, for a CP hungry army like this, this (usually) two-option single reroll may not be worth a whole 2CP. Against certain lists it definitely could be, but you should always consider what you're going to get out of it first. If you don't think your shield-captain on jetbike will be threatened by much or have trouble wounding in a certain match, consider saving the 2CP for something else.
I'd spend it on Trojan, and Vexhilla teleport him into the back lines, but it really doesn't do much for Biker captains. With the ammount of dakka getting tossed around in the 8th, it's hard to validate 2cp for a single die roll.
Maybe I'm misplaying it? It's 1 single die, not all the die rolled in the act right? So, it's not all the hurricane bolter shots, it's one single miss.
This is actually a great point. Even though VotBG would be used over and over again during save rolls, the reroll during your turn would be rare. Like you said, we always hit on 2s and reroll 1s, and reroll wounds on the charge anyway.
Do you think 2 squads of 3, or 1 squad of 6 is a better configuration? I think 2x3 is more flexible, but 6 allows you to use avenge the fallen on them more effectively.
Do you think 2 squads of 3, or 1 squad of 6 is a better configuration? I think 2x3 is more flexible, but 6 allows you to use avenge the fallen on them more effectively.
Which do you think is better and why?
So it's a trade off. 1 squad of 6 not only improves Avenge the Fallen, but it strengthens Ever Vigilant if your opponent deploys anything from reserves in range. It also strengthens Stooping Dive if you have other units to keep the 6 Jetbikes from being charged by an enemy first.
2x3, however, allows the Jetbikes to screen each other for Stooping Dive, thus making it more reliable to pull off, if less powerful. It also allows them to split apart for objective grabbing as necessary since they are ObSec and can move 20" in a single turn.
I personally do 3x3 as an Outrider with a Shield-Captain on a Jetbike. I prefer the extra flexibility on Stooping Dive rather than the buffed power. Sadly, they rarely lose units in the same turn they are going to melee in my experience so I don't get much use out of Avenge the Fallen.
Do you think 2 squads of 3, or 1 squad of 6 is a better configuration? I think 2x3 is more flexible, but 6 allows you to use avenge the fallen on them more effectively.
Which do you think is better and why?
So it's a trade off. 1 squad of 6 not only improves Avenge the Fallen, but it strengthens Ever Vigilant if your opponent deploys anything from reserves in range. It also strengthens Stooping Dive if you have other units to keep the 6 Jetbikes from being charged by an enemy first.
2x3, however, allows the Jetbikes to screen each other for Stooping Dive, thus making it more reliable to pull off, if less powerful. It also allows them to split apart for objective grabbing as necessary since they are ObSec and can move 20" in a single turn.
I personally do 3x3 as an Outrider with a Shield-Captain on a Jetbike. I prefer the extra flexibility on Stooping Dive rather than the buffed power. Sadly, they rarely lose units in the same turn they are going to melee in my experience so I don't get much use out of Avenge the Fallen.
Ever Vigilant is Infantry only.
Unless you have some master plan for a big unit of Jetbikes, its generally best to split them up. Swooping dive and maybe FGLTC are the only 'buffs' worth applying to them and there are many reasons to argue for MSU in an army with so few units, not to mention being more resistant to enemy debuffs and the like.
Do you think 2 squads of 3, or 1 squad of 6 is a better configuration? I think 2x3 is more flexible, but 6 allows you to use avenge the fallen on them more effectively.
Which do you think is better and why?
So it's a trade off. 1 squad of 6 not only improves Avenge the Fallen, but it strengthens Ever Vigilant if your opponent deploys anything from reserves in range. It also strengthens Stooping Dive if you have other units to keep the 6 Jetbikes from being charged by an enemy first.
2x3, however, allows the Jetbikes to screen each other for Stooping Dive, thus making it more reliable to pull off, if less powerful. It also allows them to split apart for objective grabbing as necessary since they are ObSec and can move 20" in a single turn.
I personally do 3x3 as an Outrider with a Shield-Captain on a Jetbike. I prefer the extra flexibility on Stooping Dive rather than the buffed power. Sadly, they rarely lose units in the same turn they are going to melee in my experience so I don't get much use out of Avenge the Fallen.
Ever Vigilant is Infantry only.
Unless you have some master plan for a big unit of Jetbikes, its generally best to split them up. Swooping dive and maybe FGLTC are the only 'buffs' worth applying to them and there are many reasons to argue for MSU in an army with so few units, not to mention being more resistant to enemy debuffs and the like.
Fair enough on Ever Vigilant but it wasn't a huge portion of the rationale.
Despite favoring 3x3 myself, most tournament placing lists I see of squad Jetbikes take 2x4 or 2x5 or something along those lines.
The problem with a squad of 6 is, the pain of each model lost becomes multiplicative. Two squads of 4 is a good start.
If you have two squads, they can hold two different objectives. A giant squad of 6 is going to be target numero uno for any opponent with a brain, and it won't be hard to take it down.
Then, your tying 540 points up in a single unit, that likely won't survive round 2.
Bikes have two main objectives as I see it. Grabbing points, and eliminating chaff and heavy infantry. You can send them up against tanks/heavy support, but then you aren't doing much.
Fair enough. I may start trying to run 2 squads of 3 then, each with a shield captain on a bike to back them up on opposite flanks, see how that works.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: The problem with a squad of 6 is, the pain of each model lost becomes multiplicative. Two squads of 4 is a good start.
If you have two squads, they can hold two different objectives. A giant squad of 6 is going to be target numero uno for any opponent with a brain, and it won't be hard to take it down.
Then, your tying 540 points up in a single unit, that likely won't survive round 2.
Bikes have two main objectives as I see it. Grabbing points, and eliminating chaff and heavy infantry. You can send them up against tanks/heavy support, but then you aren't doing much.
You teleport the bikes. It’s not harder to kill 8 bikes in 2 squads than 8 in 1 unless your opponent is completely oblivious to statistics
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: The problem with a squad of 6 is, the pain of each model lost becomes multiplicative. Two squads of 4 is a good start.
If you have two squads, they can hold two different objectives. A giant squad of 6 is going to be target numero uno for any opponent with a brain, and it won't be hard to take it down.
Then, your tying 540 points up in a single unit, that likely won't survive round 2.
Bikes have two main objectives as I see it. Grabbing points, and eliminating chaff and heavy infantry. You can send them up against tanks/heavy support, but then you aren't doing much.
You teleport the bikes. It’s not harder to kill 8 bikes in 2 squads than 8 in 1 unless your opponent is completely oblivious to statistics
So why would you hold 8 bikes, no matter how you break them up, in reserve until turn 2? That's a lot to keep off the board. Besides, I'd rather move them myself and make the charge on my terms than DS them, and have to roll 9s or better just to get the charge off.
And it's harder to kill two squads that are on separate objectives on the board. If you place both squads on the same objective you aren't trying to do what I was trying to do.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: The problem with a squad of 6 is, the pain of each model lost becomes multiplicative. Two squads of 4 is a good start.
If you have two squads, they can hold two different objectives. A giant squad of 6 is going to be target numero uno for any opponent with a brain, and it won't be hard to take it down.
Then, your tying 540 points up in a single unit, that likely won't survive round 2.
Bikes have two main objectives as I see it. Grabbing points, and eliminating chaff and heavy infantry. You can send them up against tanks/heavy support, but then you aren't doing much.
You teleport the bikes. It’s not harder to kill 8 bikes in 2 squads than 8 in 1 unless your opponent is completely oblivious to statistics
So why would you hold 8 bikes, no matter how you break them up, in reserve until turn 2? That's a lot to keep off the board. Besides, I'd rather move them myself and make the charge on my terms than DS them, and have to roll 9s or better just to get the charge off.
And it's harder to kill two squads that are on separate objectives on the board. If you place both squads on the same objective you aren't trying to do what I was trying to do.
On squad, DS. 8 bikes isn’t enough to run two squads in my opinion. They can’t afford to be wasted on objectives. You can use your other units for that. 8 bikes represents your hitting power. They need to kill and not die. Literally any elite unit in the game with the ability to I would DS, unless you have truly epic amount of terrain. 40k is too lethal to try and just eat the firepower. And your bike will have a turn with their asses in the breeze without a deepstrike. With a deepstrike they can unleash their full firepower and have a 54 percent chance of a charge. No army I have played against has not either had an extreme on the table first turn alpha strike or a hefty off the table beta strike. If you’re using 8 bikes, you aren’t going to have a strong alpha, but bikes are an extremely good beta strike. They just need to not all die to the enemy alpha
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: The problem with a squad of 6 is, the pain of each model lost becomes multiplicative. Two squads of 4 is a good start.
If you have two squads, they can hold two different objectives. A giant squad of 6 is going to be target numero uno for any opponent with a brain, and it won't be hard to take it down.
Then, your tying 540 points up in a single unit, that likely won't survive round 2.
Bikes have two main objectives as I see it. Grabbing points, and eliminating chaff and heavy infantry. You can send them up against tanks/heavy support, but then you aren't doing much.
You teleport the bikes. It’s not harder to kill 8 bikes in 2 squads than 8 in 1 unless your opponent is completely oblivious to statistics
So why would you hold 8 bikes, no matter how you break them up, in reserve until turn 2? That's a lot to keep off the board. Besides, I'd rather move them myself and make the charge on my terms than DS them, and have to roll 9s or better just to get the charge off.
And it's harder to kill two squads that are on separate objectives on the board. If you place both squads on the same objective you aren't trying to do what I was trying to do.
On squad, DS. 8 bikes isn’t enough to run two squads in my opinion. They can’t afford to be wasted on objectives. You can use your other units for that. 8 bikes represents your hitting power. They need to kill and not die. Literally any elite unit in the game with the ability to I would DS, unless you have truly epic amount of terrain. 40k is too lethal to try and just eat the firepower. And your bike will have a turn with their asses in the breeze without a deepstrike. With a deepstrike they can unleash their full firepower and have a 54 percent chance of a charge. No army I have played against has not either had an extreme on the table first turn alpha strike or a hefty off the table beta strike. If you’re using 8 bikes, you aren’t going to have a strong alpha, but bikes are an extremely good beta strike. They just need to not all die to the enemy alpha
Only thing is, out of deep strike, the chance for making a 9 inch 2d6 charge is something like 33%. With a reroll its 45%. Meaning they won't get in until t3 more than half the time, and have a turn of being in the open.
Right. DSing your bikes is statistically more likely to get them killed, in my experience. Which I will add, is limited as far as Custodes goes. I have 2 years of experience DSing units to 9" and watching them fail charges.
The key in this game (for me) is to keep all your units at about the same point cost so that one doesn't become too much of a priority over the other, making the decision to attack one over the other a problem for your opponent. My main custodes force keeps my units at about 270~ points. That means 3 model bike squads.
Honestly everyone who was running 3x3 bike squads should have swapped to 2x4 with a grav speeder for their outrider detachment anyway.
Its only 30 extra points and gets you a slightly better anti-tank capability along with 4 extra wounds (the grav speeders are pretty good at soaking smites and reducing enemy charges againgst the bikes as well.
Eihnlazer wrote: Honestly everyone who was running 3x3 bike squads should have swapped to 2x4 with a grav speeder for their outrider detachment anyway.
Its only 30 extra points and gets you a slightly better anti-tank capability along with 4 extra wounds (the grav speeders are pretty good at soaking smites and reducing enemy charges againgst the bikes as well.
I switched to this recently (well, 2x3 and a pallas) cause I wanted to run aquilons. After Gentleman's GT I've realized that I need a better way to kill knights because even 3x Caladius doesn't do it fast enough against multiple knights. The pallas will add a bit extra shooting...I'm a bit nervous about the eldar flyer matchup now without the extra bike squad but I think the anti-vehicle shots from the pallas and a squad of termies to drop in will be about even with what I had. I view the Pallas as an "Attack bike" (ala the custodes version).
General idea is to have the Sword&Board guys in the backfield for objective grabbing and protection of the dakka Telemon. The dakka Telemon also stays back and does its thing. The other 6 Guardians will be riding the pimp mobile into battle alongside the captains while the vexillus praetor advances with the choppy dreads as the second wave. I count on the enemy to focus on the coronus or the fisto telemon being the scariest/fastest targets so that the achillae will reach battle relatively safe.
Yes I know that the Coronus is probably not the most competitive choice as it is not that great at dealing damage and also pretty expensive. It is fast and really tough though. And it is gorgeous! I love the model.
The army should be compact enough to be completely shielded by the praetor should I not get the first turn. I'm tempted to give the Captains VotBG though that would leave me with only 3 CP for the game. I guess I could also FGLTC the achillus dreads to Keep them safe but then they also dont get to shoot the first turn. FGLTC for the Telemon does not seem smart as he'd not be able to fire his Plasma projectors after DS....
Fill out your last eight points with misericordia...seems like a fun list. The Coronus is a bit underwhelming IMO. I'd swap it with a caladius if you can.
iGuy91 wrote: Fill out your last eight points with misericordia...seems like a fun list. The Coronus is a bit underwhelming IMO. I'd swap it with a caladius if you can.
Can't. They are on my Shopping list tho. I'm curious how it will perform. It seems tough enough to deliver my Guardians into battle quickly and be a nuisance after. Noone ever seems to use one, i have never seen one fielded
The corvus is quite good in 30k, as it has almost the same amount of firepower as the calidius and still transports stuff, but in 40k its not nearly as killy as the battle tank.
Not to mention, its rare you'd want to put custodies in a transport anyway, as every 1 you roll kills a 3 wound or more model.
The Orion is the only real option custodies have for transport as it tends to live more than 1 turn even when focused by most armies.
I'm seriously considering giving the spear dreadnaughts a play at my next plays as match. They look like they can do serious damage, but they are resilient and not as costly as say, a Telemon. Well, about 140 vs 230(? I forget). If I can will it into melee, it can pretty consistently take tanks to pound town.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I'm seriously considering giving the spear dreadnaughts a play at my next plays as match. They look like they can do serious damage, but they are resilient and not as costly as say, a Telemon. Well, about 140 vs 230(? I forget). If I can will it into melee, it can pretty consistently take tanks to pound town.
The problem is that 'IF' is pretty big.
Against a decent player its not making melee, its always going to be in the open for atleast 1 turn and 1 turn is all that is needed against a decent list.
Eihnlazer wrote: The corvus is quite good in 30k, as it has almost the same amount of firepower as the calidius and still transports stuff, but in 40k its not nearly as killy as the battle tank.
Not to mention, its rare you'd want to put custodies in a transport anyway, as every 1 you roll kills a 3 wound or more model.
The Orion is the only real option custodies have for transport as it tends to live more than 1 turn even when focused by most armies.
Huh, the Orion is double the cost and 4 wounds more. Set up next to a vexilla it also has a -1 to hit against Alphastrike. Not sure how an Orion is much more durable than a coronus. Especially for the Points.
Its good but its a one hit wonder. It rarely survives past turn 2 and quite often does make it past turn 1. However it does often get your payload where they need to be and is good at blowing away screens. So I find it effective but don't think it will stick around.
Now the Achilles I think is quite underated atm. Now it is a very conditional unit. Its got to cross the field somehow and with only 4 attacks even in melee it gets bogged down in tarpits. However it is an exceptional monster/tank/heavy infantry hunter. And its cheapest loadout is around 140 point making it great for its points.
Deep striking them or having one catch a ride on an Orion. Can help get them get where they need to go.
And that cheap load out I mentioned they have 2 Rapid 2 S5 AP -1 guns so even if your opponent has a screen you can drop effectively 8 heavy bolter shots hitting on 2s. Then take a pot shot with their S8 gun at whatever was being protected. Its heavy D3 so hitting on 3s and low number of shots but honestly I see it as more of an extra then anything. If you don't make your charge. Then you have a dread or two threating them for the next turn. I advise doing this with 2 dreads to box in your target. And if it does work and they blow away the 2 dreads. Well you have lost 280 points. And they have draw fire away from more valuable things like your grav-tanks or bike squads.
If you wanting to try and take out Knights in a Ranged Duel. Then your going to want Telemons But even then I would say your odds aren't great. 2 Telemons vs for example a crusader might do the job. But its going to be close and definitely wont be in one turn. Also telemons are fairly easy to tie up in melee So you will need to screen them. Plus they don't want to move so they don't take negatives to hit.
Our best point for point Knight killers are Aquilon terminators but they do have difficulty getting in melee like everything else and are more vulnerable DSimo. (Higher Invul yes but the lower toughness I think is worse.) Also much more expensive then our Spear Dreads.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also forgot to mention Point for point Pallas are almost as good as the Telemon for Knight hunting. 3 Pallas do on average 2.8 wounds compared to a Telemons 2.96.
Pallas aren't as durable but more mobile and keeps you from having all your eggs in one basket. Also they can't be tied up in melee as easily.
Question about a stratagem:
"INDOMITABLE GUARDIANS
Adeptus Custodes Stratagem
Use this Stratagem in your opponent’s Fight phase after an
enemy unit that charged has fought. Choose an ADEPTUS
CUSTODES unit from your army that is within 3" of an
objective marker and fight with it next."
Does this work like Stooping Dive where I can just attack out of turn, maybe even fight twice with the same unit? I'm not sure about the wording here.
_SeeD_ wrote: Question about a stratagem:
"INDOMITABLE GUARDIANS
Adeptus Custodes Stratagem
Use this Stratagem in your opponent’s Fight phase after an
enemy unit that charged has fought. Choose an ADEPTUS
CUSTODES unit from your army that is within 3" of an
objective marker and fight with it next."
Does this work like Stooping Dive where I can just attack out of turn, maybe even fight twice with the same unit? I'm not sure about the wording here.
It's basically the same as Counter-Charge, but cheaper and requires you to be on an objective.
You CANNOT fight twice with just this. It just allows you to fight immediately after an enemy charger has gone.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So we'd be looking at a max 8CP army? What would the Custodes Castle look like?
BN
Valoris, Sh Captain = HQ 3x3 squads of Guard = troops
1x Vexhilla
2x Callidus
2x Telemon
? 1x Pallas Grav-attack bike
1999pts.
Does anyone else not like taking Custodian Guards? They are subpar shooting at 4 Str, slow, and just die all the time. Not to mention they often play as overpriced objective holders.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So we'd be looking at a max 8CP army? What would the Custodes Castle look like?
BN
Valoris, Sh Captain = HQ 3x3 squads of Guard = troops
1x Vexhilla
2x Callidus
2x Telemon
? 1x Pallas Grav-attack bike
1999pts.
Does anyone else not like taking Custodian Guards? They are subpar shooting at 4 Str, slow, and just die all the time. Not to mention they often play as overpriced objective holders.
They are less useful than bikers, for sure. But, they are still a fairly effective unit that is essential to getting that extra 5 CP for use on the Custodes's fantastic stratagems. They are indeed slow, but not cripplingly so, especially if you use the From Golden Light stratagem. Also, from my (limited) experience, the Custodes, especially during Custodes Castle Ops, tend to find themselves on the defensive, and if you can fortify yourself with a layer of 10 guardsmen backed by 3 Custodians on three sides, your big shooty stuff in the middle might survive that Harlequin charge a turn or two extra. Especially if you can put 1 group of Custodians within 3" of an objective, and maybe support them with stooping dive bikers. If you're on the offensive and have sufficient fire support, you won't need to be shooting with them, so you can Advance them up the field, which improves their mobility significantly. They might be in combat turn 3, just as your bikes are starting to give out. Also, From Golden Light will help.
If you're rolling with a mono-faction build, custodian guards are OK. But if I'm souping, I just replace the guards with guardsmen. Easy and cheap command points. Easy and cheap screening and objective holding.
There are a few good players around who post games and lists using a pure Custodes Castle list without any battalion in tournament event and vanilla 40k formats, KhardorStompy in this thread and ShaneWatts over on Bolter&Chainsword come to mind first.
Jetbikes and Caladius tanks are generally the backbone of the army (aside from a few notable variations) and they don't really need that many CP do they? So long as you have the CP to get off a few crucial rerolls, or a crucial Swooping Dive if it comes up. And Valoris' ability to steal a few back can help enough in that regard.
Not going by my own experience here, can't play any 40k this year , just what I read about them.
I don't use troops; my list has basically been bikes and tanks though I've recently been playing around with swapping a bike squad for 3 aquilon terminators. My take is that custodian guard simply aren't the best units in the army, and are too expensive to be cheap objective holders. They don't have the volume of fire/attacks to take on hordes nor the strength/damage to kill tough units as well as other units in the codex/beta rules. Don't get me wrong, they are a very solid troops choice...it's just that other units are better. and in my army of points-expensive models I've chosen to focus on killing things.
One of the arguments in their favor is that they are tough and can survive on objectives, unfortunately in a world of plaguebearers and catachan hordes 3 Obsec bodies isn't enough to hold an objective since they'll be out-manned. Furthermore, nothing in 8th edition is truly "survivable"; everything can be killed eventually. You could spam them and it might work, but going partial is tough...if 450ish points of your army isn't contributing to the fight it's putting your other units at a disadvantage. You'd have to go some sort of double battalion of infantry but frankly if the 18-bike list can be tabled then probably so can 30 custodian guard though I've yet to see anyone truly try it.
With command points, you don't really need that many simply because your high WS/BS+innate re-rolls reduces a lot of the normal CP expenditure. And frankly, not a lot of our stratagems are really game-changing, and the ones that are aren't spamable. Put another way, Custodes don't need their stratagems to function, all their units are good and merely get better (with a few exceptions) unlike some other armies whose stratagems turn ok units into great ones.
The last point I'll make is that one of the strengths of the "Custodes Castle" is it's mobility. 14" Fly move on your tanks mean that you can move around the table a lot, and it means that the tanks actually pair really well with bikes and a bunch of hurricane bolters are a welcome addition.
Guard don't have the attacks to take on hordes?
HHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHA
Each one gets three attacks, 4 if you use the vexhilla, 5 if you give them daggers, and then add 2-3 more per model if you lose two in the squad and pop the stratagem. Then they can charge, fight twice.
I have watched a squad of 6 Custodes Guard shoot, charge, and then proceed to tear through Morty and a unit of poxwalkers like a sword through butter. It's kinda disgusting how powerful they are for just "troops".
But if you don't like their shooting, ok. But their attacks can still threaten armor, die slightly easier than a bloat drone, and they have shenanigans slightly more fearsome than Matt Ward in a nighty waiting in your closet.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Guard don't have the attacks to take on hordes?
HHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHA
Each one gets three attacks, 4 if you use the vexhilla, 5 if you give them daggers, and then add 2-3 more per model if you lose two in the squad and pop the stratagem. Then they can charge, fight twice.
I have watched a squad of 6 Custodes Guard shoot, charge, and then proceed to tear through Morty and a unit of poxwalkers like a sword through butter. It's kinda disgusting how powerful they are for just "troops".
But if you don't like their shooting, ok. But their attacks can still threaten armor, die slightly easier than a bloat drone, and they have shenanigans slightly more fearsome than Matt Ward in a nighty waiting in your closet.
They can wreck. your. sh!3t.
I agree with this. Custodian Guard can plow through stuff. The problem for them is always footslogging means they never get anywhere interesting anytime soon. (6 of them cutting through Morty is dumb luck though, haha).
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Guard don't have the attacks to take on hordes?
HHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHA
Each one gets three attacks, 4 if you use the vexhilla, 5 if you give them daggers, and then add 2-3 more per model if you lose two in the squad and pop the stratagem. Then they can charge, fight twice.
I have watched a squad of 6 Custodes Guard shoot, charge, and then proceed to tear through Morty and a unit of poxwalkers like a sword through butter. It's kinda disgusting how powerful they are for just "troops".
But if you don't like their shooting, ok. But their attacks can still threaten armor, die slightly easier than a bloat drone, and they have shenanigans slightly more fearsome than Matt Ward in a nighty waiting in your closet.
They can wreck. your. sh!3t.
I agree with this. Custodian Guard can plow through stuff. The problem for them is always footslogging means they never get anywhere interesting anytime soon. (6 of them cutting through Morty is dumb luck though, haha).
They're great mid-field objective campers.
Yeah, the Custodes player dropped 3 models off a 6 man unit, and popped the strat, giving 3 models 7 attacks each, hitting on 3/4s. Doing d3 damage. He failed 14 out of the 20ish hits, and those did about 26 damage to him. With DR, he whittled that down to 19. Still dead.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Yeah, the Custodes player dropped 3 models off a 6 man unit, and popped the strat, giving 3 models 7 attacks each, hitting on 3/4s. Doing d3 damage. He failed 14 out of the 20ish hits, and those did about 26 damage to him. With DR, he whittled that down to 19. Still dead.
21 attacks (assuming none are misericordias) hitting on 2's does 17.5 hits, 5.83 wounds, Morty saves 2.92 (with no re-rolls) and you do 5.83 dmg on average, 3.89 after DR. You're wounding on 5's and he has a 4++, not to mention a potential -1 to hit (which I didn't include). What you saw was insane luck, or you mistook wardens with axes for guard (which would still only do 7.78 damage even without the -1).
All the things you mentioned can also be done to Wardens, bikes, or aquilons...they can take misericordia and benefit from the banner and the strat. But all those units hit harder or are faster. We've re-hashed the bikes vs other stuff ad nauseum, but I'll give a quick rundown again: 3 bikes (270 points) vs 5 guard
Bikes: 12 wounds T6, 12 attacks S6 re-roll wounds, rapid fire 18 boltguns, 14" move. 2+/4++
Guard: 15 wounds T5, 15 attacks S5/6, rapid fire 5 -1AP 2dmg, 6" move, 2+/4++ (a couple 3++ if you take a shield).
If you want to take them as objective holders fine, just realize that other stuff is more lethal and still capable of doing that mission (everything is obsec!), and really consider what your army needs to win the game before prioritizing CP over unit choices.
What is the best way to use a Galatus Contemptor Dread? I really want to use it because I love the model, though I know it is not as good as the Achillus or the Telemon.
Do you just go for "from golden light they come" into the enemy backline and hope he makes the charge?
Tiberias wrote: What is the best way to use a Galatus Contemptor Dread? I really want to use it because I love the model, though I know it is not as good as the Achillus or the Telemon.
Do you just go for "from golden light they come" into the enemy backline and hope he makes the charge?
Not going to lie, with the exception of our tanks and giant Gundam, that is literally the strat for most everything in our codex. Get close, charge, wreck face. Very little is hang back and shoot. You "could" also use them for bullying tanks but they are mostly good for heavy infantry munching, T6 or less. Attacks against T7 is just wasted.
Otherwise, the problem with the Galatus is it's a giant lump of crap until you can get it into melee range. It's designed purpose is to scare the crap out of the back field, but Aqullion Custodes do they 50x better. I'd rather be punching at S12 than S6, and they can shoot at 24".
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Guard don't have the attacks to take on hordes?
HHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHA
Each one gets three attacks, 4 if you use the vexhilla, 5 if you give them daggers, and then add 2-3 more per model if you lose two in the squad and pop the stratagem. Then they can charge, fight twice.
.
Just checking, how do they fight twice? Did I miss a stratagem?
iGuy91 wrote: Regarding Aquillon Custodes, I assume the optimal loadout is stormbolter and fist?
Is it worth mixing the firepikes in there? The destructors seem really expensive for what they do at str 5.
So i was thinking squad of 3 with 2 stormbolters, 1 firepike to hopefully help deter people from charging chaff at them to tie them up.
I saw the math a long time ago. The Bolters do equivalent damage or better damage than the Firepikes EXCEPT against: T3, T5, T6, T10, T11 and Overwatch. Aside from Overwatch, the difference in damage between the two was fairly negligible, however.
Basically: if you're planning to GET charged, load up on Firepikes. If you're not anticipating your opponent slamming into you, take Bolters.
Aqulion Custodian with Storm Bolter and Fist is 78 points. Replace the Bolter with a Firepike, and it jumps to 88.
They have the same AP and damage, so it's just Strength and number of hits that differ.
Even without a Captain, you average 3.33 hits in Rapid Fire, whereas the Infernus averages 3.5 but ONLY within 12", cannot fire further. Add a captain and that jumps to 3.89, making it better in number of hits.
The main reason I think the Pikes ain't so worth it is that what chaff unit is gonna survive contact with even just 3 Aquilons?
They have 12 S10 AP-4 Dd3 swings, plus Misericordias if you want. I could see Plaguebearers surviving that, but they generally multicharge a bunch of stuff to try to tie it all up. If they do do that, kill your way out. If they don't, fall back and cream 'em with shooting.
Edit: Math, for fun. This is the number of wounds assuming 3.5 shots with the Pike, 3.33 hits with the Storm Bolter, and 3.89 with Captain-aided Bolters.
JNAProductions wrote: Aqulion Custodian with Storm Bolter and Fist is 78 points. Replace the Bolter with a Firepike, and it jumps to 88.
They have the same AP and damage, so it's just Strength and number of hits that differ.
Even without a Captain, you average 3.33 hits in Rapid Fire, whereas the Infernus averages 3.5 but ONLY within 12", cannot fire further. Add a captain and that jumps to 3.89, making it better in number of hits.
The main reason I think the Pikes ain't so worth it is that what chaff unit is gonna survive contact with even just 3 Aquilons?
They have 12 S10 AP-4 Dd3 swings, plus Misericordias if you want. I could see Plaguebearers surviving that, but they generally multicharge a bunch of stuff to try to tie it all up. If they do do that, kill your way out. If they don't, fall back and cream 'em with shooting.
The Firepikes are brutal for Deepstriking back lines and character hunting. They ignore all the negatives to hit that a lot of HQs put out now.
I've had some do good work against sorcerers and Company commanders, etc. Then again, they should ONLY be shooting that one phase. After that they should be in melee or dead. So quiblling over the one shooting round they get isn't really that important. Go SBs and spend the points elsewhere. It's like a 11B Lieutenant worrying about what pistol he carries. It only matters if your main weapon stops working.
JNAProductions wrote: Why are they brutal for Deepstriking and Character hunting? The Bolters perform nearly as well even without a captain against most Toughnesses.
sorry, I edited after the post. Because a lot of HQ's have negatives to hit. Hell, hunting assassins, Space Elves, Space Murder clowns, Rapey Space Elves, Pestilence of somethingorother....etc. It goes on and on. Redo the math with the Lastrums hitting on 3's and 4's.
Whereas the Pikes autohit, and you can re-roll the shots with a CP.
JNAProductions wrote: Why are they brutal for Deepstriking and Character hunting? The Bolters perform nearly as well even without a captain against most Toughnesses.
sorry, I edited after the post. Because a lot of HQ's have negatives to hit. Hell, hunting assassins, Space Elves, Space Murder clowns, Rapey Space Elves, Pestilence of somethingorother....etc. It goes on and on. Redo the math with the Lastrums hitting on 3's and 4's.
Whereas the Pikes autohit, and you can re-roll the shots with a CP.
One assassin has a neg to-hit (Vindicare) and another is useless against Custodes (Culexus) but does make you hit on 6s. There's not that many characters with negatives to-hit, and moreover, any competent player SCREENS. So you CAN'T shoot them at all.
And three Aqulion Custodes with Pikes average 10.5. I'll be generous and say they roll a 1, 5, and 5. Rerolling the 1 nets you 2.5 extra, so call it 13 hits.
Against a Vindicare, that's 8.67 wounds, or with their 4++, a live Vindicare. Especially since THEY can CP reroll a save.
Edit: With a slightly more likely 12 shots, you have (assuming they don't bother with a CP reroll) a 36.85% chance of killing a Vindicare.
JNAProductions wrote: Why are they brutal for Deepstriking and Character hunting? The Bolters perform nearly as well even without a captain against most Toughnesses.
sorry, I edited after the post. Because a lot of HQ's have negatives to hit. Hell, hunting assassins, Space Elves, Space Murder clowns, Rapey Space Elves, Pestilence of somethingorother....etc. It goes on and on. Redo the math with the Lastrums hitting on 3's and 4's.
Whereas the Pikes autohit, and you can re-roll the shots with a CP.
One assassin has a neg to-hit (Vindicare) and another is useless against Custodes (Culexus) but does make you hit on 6s. There's not that many characters with negatives to-hit, and moreover, any competent player SCREENS. So you CAN'T shoot them at all.
And three Aqulion Custodes with Pikes average 10.5. I'll be generous and say they roll a 1, 5, and 5. Rerolling the 1 nets you 2.5 extra, so call it 13 hits.
Against a Vindicare, that's 8.67 wounds, or with their 4++, a live Vindicare. Especially since THEY can CP reroll a save.
Edit: With a slightly more likely 12 shots, you have (assuming they don't bother with a CP reroll) a 36.85% chance of killing a Vindicare.
Again, assuming no screens.
I'm not going to argue with your math, and you are one of the people to trust on these boards. That being said, a lot of HQ's have the ability to make negatives to hit. Libbys, or any psyker in general has a negative to hit spell, Eldar have eldar stuff, I think GSC have a spell or an ability, I'm not sure, Necrons have an ability, Death guard can be negative 2 to hit, I mean, it's not UNCOMMON. And if you are wasting deep striking Aquillons on chaff, what is the point of the attack?
DSing any Custodes into the backfield is done, in my (admittedly less experienced) view, to take down characters or to take out heavy support. I don't want to waste aquillons as objective grabbers, or chaff shooters. I'd rather then punch the tank, or kill the Captain behind the lines.
It doesn't ALWAYS go as planned, but I don't see the value of including them in a list if not to use them in this fashion. Not being a smart-ass, but can you please give some wisdom here, what do you use aquillons for?
Space Marine Librarians do not have a -1 hit spell, except maybe the Phobos one.
CSM Sorcerers only have it if they're Nurgle.
Eldar have one power, one stratagem, and one relic, I believe-they can (in theory) all be stacked on the same model, but then just shoot something else.
GSC can inflict hit penalties on enemy units and have one -1 hit Warlord Trait, if I recall correctly.
The main point is that, if you have Deep Strikers, your foe will screen their characters from Deep Strike if at all possible. Punching a Leman Russ to death is a great use of them-going character hunting is not. Take a Vindicare if you want characters dead.
Negatives to hit arent used to keep characters alive. <CHARACTER> is used to keep characters alive. Those accuracy maluses are instead used to protect big heavy hitters that cant hide behind screens from massed fire.
Aquilons are there to murderize T8+ centrepiece models. Everything else is secondary.
The firepikes are there for if the Aquilons fail the 9" and get counter-charged. Are they worth the extra 10 points? Why not? Custodes just gobble up the points up anyway lol.
_SeeD_ wrote: The firepikes are there for if the Aquilons fail the 9" and get counter-charged. Are they worth the extra 10 points? Why not? Custodes just gobble up the points up anyway lol.
So what I've been doing for that is taking a Culexus and deep striking it in with them. Then I pop Soul Horror if someone charges them.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Guard don't have the attacks to take on hordes?
HHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHA
Each one gets three attacks, 4 if you use the vexhilla, 5 if you give them daggers, and then add 2-3 more per model if you lose two in the squad and pop the stratagem. Then they can charge, fight twice.
I have watched a squad of 6 Custodes Guard shoot, charge, and then proceed to tear through Morty and a unit of poxwalkers like a sword through butter. It's kinda disgusting how powerful they are for just "troops".
But if you don't like their shooting, ok. But their attacks can still threaten armor, die slightly easier than a bloat drone, and they have shenanigans slightly more fearsome than Matt Ward in a nighty waiting in your closet.
They can wreck. your. sh!3t.
It is all relative. Like a horde is 100 to 200 models. Back before the guard commissar nerf (and the custodes codex) I've have a squad sucked into a unit of conscripts for 2 turns, and that was it for them, they did nothing that game.
For true horde armies, actual custodes guard will struggle to kill their points back, and sometimes struggle to survive against, say, a supported boyz squad.
Custodes guard are a fine unit against an enemy melee army though. I actually prefer a second shield per unit to up the survivability though, mostly as I use them to pin an enemy melee unit down. They're a bit wasted if you line up against tau and go "Well they're never going to do anything but eat firepower."
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Yeah, the Custodes player dropped 3 models off a 6 man unit, and popped the strat, giving 3 models 7 attacks each, hitting on 3/4s. Doing d3 damage. He failed 14 out of the 20ish hits, and those did about 26 damage to him. With DR, he whittled that down to 19. Still dead.
21 attacks (assuming none are misericordias) hitting on 2's does 17.5 hits, 5.83 wounds, Morty saves 2.92 (with no re-rolls) and you do 5.83 dmg on average, 3.89 after DR. You're wounding on 5's and he has a 4++, not to mention a potential -1 to hit (which I didn't include). What you saw was insane luck, or you mistook wardens with axes for guard (which would still only do 7.78 damage even without the -1).
All the things you mentioned can also be done to Wardens, bikes, or aquilons...they can take misericordia and benefit from the banner and the strat. But all those units hit harder or are faster. We've re-hashed the bikes vs other stuff ad nauseum, but I'll give a quick rundown again: 3 bikes (270 points) vs 5 guard
Bikes: 12 wounds T6, 12 attacks S6 re-roll wounds, rapid fire 18 boltguns, 14" move. 2+/4++
Guard: 15 wounds T5, 15 attacks S5/6, rapid fire 5 -1AP 2dmg, 6" move, 2+/4++ (a couple 3++ if you take a shield).
If you want to take them as objective holders fine, just realize that other stuff is more lethal and still capable of doing that mission (everything is obsec!), and really consider what your army needs to win the game before prioritizing CP over unit choices.
Having played extensively with both troops and bikes and just bikes, troops and bikes are the better list. The CP is really that valuable, Bikes aren't appreciably more durable than storm shield guard for cost, and if you are setting up your entire army on the battlefield, against any enemy, a large chunk of it is going to be dead before it is in combat no matter what you do, or you'll be charged first (or you're not fighting a very optimal list).
_SeeD_ wrote: The firepikes are there for if the Aquilons fail the 9" and get counter-charged. Are they worth the extra 10 points? Why not? Custodes just gobble up the points up anyway lol.
So what I've been doing for that is taking a Culexus and deep striking it in with them. Then I pop Soul Horror if someone charges them.
Not a bad idea though I tend to find my Aquilons more in shooting then anything else.
I had not bothered to check stats beforehand so "bit" underestimated his toughness so by the time I realized my mistake I was pretty much committed to HAVE to take it out. Should have just skitted around and then feed unit of boyz to it. Overwatch would hurt but then it would take too long to take down boyz to really matter.
, just what I read about them.