Battlescribe is updated and awaiting appspot to pick up the release.
Anyone who makes an issue about the new beta rules being missing will get godstruck into the sun.
in other news, the Caladius with arachnus looks like a very interesting way to put reliable hurt on heavy vehicles, wounding on 3+ rerollable most of the time.
Also minimum brigade is now 2403 (3 SC, 6 CG, 3 pallas, 3 sagittarum)
WindstormSCR wrote: Battlescribe is updated and awaiting appspot to pick up the release.
Anyone who makes an issue about the new beta rules being missing will get godstruck into the sun.
in other news, the Caladius with arachnus looks like a very interesting way to put reliable hurt on heavy vehicles, wounding on 3+ rerollable most of the time.
Also minimum brigade is now 2403 (3 SC, 6 CG, 3 pallas, 3 sagittarum)
I hate to judge a unit on paper, but the Galatus looks really bad. Like, what do you even throw it at? 4 attacks and str 7 isn't getting past a character's standard T4/5 3++/4++, it can't threaten knights/T8 vehicles because Str 7, it has no shooting worth mentioning, and it costs more than the Achillus which can do all of those things and do mortal wounds on the charge. Can't deal with elite infantry units because 4 attacks will take forever to mulch even a squad of intercessors, much less something like a Deathwatch kill team.
It's not so much more durable than the Aquillus that it has to be gutted of offensive potential but to also give up ranged damage almost entirely all while costing 15 more points than a stock Achillus.
Am I the only one excited about the Pallas? At 100 points a piece filling out an outrider detachment has never been cheaper, plus wounding most vehicles on 4s with rerolls isn't bad.
Hmm I know allot of people like the Heavy Dread but for me the Grav-tank seems to be a steal of a deal at 210 points. Its got great mobility, a 5+ invul, and 14 shots at 2+ BS makes it look pretty solid to me. (Though I do get the Telemon has better survivabilitity with +1 T and +1 Invul.)
Braneric wrote: Am I the only one excited about the Pallas? At 100 points a piece filling out an outrider detachment has never been cheaper, plus wounding most vehicles on 4s with rerolls isn't bad.
Hm i have one and i like it. but for a anti tank option i like the caladius grav tank better. BC almost double the range and double the dmg. Plus the Twin Lastrum bolt cannon. if you have 2 pallas and your opponent deals 8 dmg you lose one. If the caladuis takes 8 dmg it only loses a bit of mobility and dmg.
What are your thoughts on the Orion? Super tempted to include one alongside Telemons as it can provide a mid-table speed bump that'll put some hurt down on hordes as well as tanks.
I really like the Venatari and while I don't think they're bad units at all, they do seem a bit lacking compared to Vertus Praetors (then again, what unit doesn't?). Their battlefield role is a little confusing too, are they meant to be fast ranged elite infantry killers? If so, many other Custodes units already have weapons that fulfill that role from the simple Guardian Spear to Adrathic Destructors and Illiastus Accelerator Culverins. Even Hurricane Bolters from Vertus Praetors (a currently more efficient unit the Venatari are compared to) can put down enough shots to take out elite infantry. The 3+ save does them little favors as well. I ended up sending some suggestions to the rules team proposing that they change the Buckler grant a simple +1 armor save so that the Bucklers actually feel like they add to the Venatari's durability while also fulfilling the the intent of the original Tarsus Buckler rule. Also sent a suggestion for a second profile to their guns to make them better infantry killers, something along the lines of:
Kinetic Destroyer 18" Pistol 2 S5 AP-1 D1 Make 2 hit rolls for each attack made by this weapon instead of 1.
Venatari Lance (shooting) 12" Assault 2 S5 AP-1 D1 Make 2 hit rolls for each attack made by this weapon instead of 1.
Also giving them 4 attacks instead of 3 to reflect their status as veterans much like the Terminators and Jetbikes. Granted I'm still probably gonna pick some up along with Firepike Aquilons and maybe we're all wrong and they perform better on the table than we gave them credit for. Either way, at the very least I hope they'll listen to some of the criticism!
It would, I just wanted it to be a bit fluffier, like maybe the second profile is explosive rounds of some kind with the rounds themselves are generating more hits, not because they're firing the gun more. Same difference really.
I picked up Venatari so I can run a 1000 pt Outrider detachment with 1 Shield Captain on Dawneagle, 2x 3 Vertus Praetors, and 1x 4 Venatari with some Miseracordias thrown throughout.
Given the current rules, how is everyone going to run their Venatari? Leaning towards the Pistols and Buckler myself to try and kite them along while stealing objectives. The jetbikes are way juicier targets so I fully expect them to take most of the attention away from them while the Venatari play the objective/troop harassment game.
As a side note, the Caladius Grav Tank taking ~100 point drop while also getting more durable is huge. And with the Accelerator Culverin nerf on the Telemon, guess I'm using the Accelerator Cannons on the Caladius and the Arachnus Storm Cannon on the Telemon. Great coverage for both anti-vehicle and anti-infantry.
After digging in some more, I’m starting to really like sagittarum with misericordias. they’re faster than CG, since the weapons are assault. They throw out a ton of shots at higher strength, more attacks in CC and as icing on the cake can really mess something up when they get close enough, all for about the same cost as shield CG. As an added bonus they pair very nicely in a spearhead with a telemon or Caladius support!
Proxied this 1k doubles list yesterday:
Valoris 185
3 saggitarium with miser 177
3 saggitarium with miser 177
3 saggitarium with miser 177
Telemon with arachnus 272
988
The saggitarium are just amazing. With Valoris, they advance and then shoot, hit on 3s wound on 3s reroll 1s on both. So reliable at killing infantry, they're quick because of being able to advance, and when they get close unload some superpowerd shooting, and get 4 power axe attacks each. Maybe not too competitive, there are better options eg troops normal guard but they are very fun and good at filling out the spearhead.
The dreadnought, whose model I do have, is beautiful on the table, and its new guns and points make it just fantastic. Reliably killing vehicles, reliably killing heavier infantry too. Overjoyed at the update for it.
That is a nice list with the saggitarium, but unless I'm wrong you don't want them anywhere near combat as it's only 3 base attacks at S5 no ap,and the misericordia allows one additional attack at -2ap.
McMagnus Mindbullets wrote: Proxied this 1k doubles list yesterday:
Valoris 185
3 saggitarium with miser 177
3 saggitarium with miser 177
3 saggitarium with miser 177
Telemon with arachnus 272
988
The saggitarium are just amazing. With Valoris, they advance and then shoot, hit on 3s wound on 3s reroll 1s on both. So reliable at killing infantry, they're quick because of being able to advance, and when they get close unload some superpowerd shooting, and get 4 power axe attacks each. Maybe not too competitive, there are better options eg troops normal guard but they are very fun and good at filling out the spearhead.
The dreadnought, whose model I do have, is beautiful on the table, and its new guns and points make it just fantastic. Reliably killing vehicles, reliably killing heavier infantry too. Overjoyed at the update for it.
Matched play rules will only let you have two units of Sagittarum at 1000 pts. The two lists I’ve been messing around with have a unit of 5 and 4 with Trajann, or two units of 5 with a Bike Captain.
I was initially most excited about the bikes actually, until I really started looking at their weapons. One of the main strengths of my original “all bikes” list was its MSU nature, but now maybe I could circumvent the rule of 3! Problem is, I’m not actually that impressed by the weapons; I’m not even sure they are better than hurricane bolters against ideal targets. Plus, the fact that for 5 more points than the las-pulse you can get 3 salvo launchers which hurt armor more...idk. I’m going to run some math later, I’m also interested in the Telemon vs. Knight helverins, or the Grav tank.
I really wish the Sagittarum were troops even though they make sense as heavy, and I’m probably going to write Forgeworld that the bikes need different profiles...it’s probably a direct port from HH where bikes can move and fire heavy weapons without penalty.
The Twin-Pulsar is probably the best non-Hurricane Bolter. The -1 to Hit after moving on them is bleh though (all of them).
I'm not seeing the hype behind the Saggitarium Guard though. They seem to not really do anything particularly notable, especially compared to other Custodes.
Conversely, the Aquilon seem incredible. Huge strength or re-rolls wounds, great flamers or solid Bolters, imnate deep strike, affordable, just terrific. I love these guys.
I'm not particularly excited by the Agamatus jetbikes. They're more expensive than Vertus Praetors, all their ranged weapons are heavy which means they'll always be shooting on 3+ (keeping them still is a waste of their movement and melee prowess), and neither the Lastrum Bolt Cannon or Adrathic Devastator seem impressive (with the latter dealing mortal wounds to yourself on 1's AND 2's if you move) with the Twin Las Pulsar being decent but way too expensive. Not to mention they're not a good looking model, especially compared to Dawneagle jetbikes.
WindstormSCR wrote: After digging in some more, I’m starting to really like sagittarum with misericordias. they’re faster than CG, since the weapons are assault. They throw out a ton of shots at higher strength, more attacks in CC and as icing on the cake can really mess something up when they get close enough, all for about the same cost as shield CG. As an added bonus they pair very nicely in a spearhead with a telemon or Caladius support!
My thoughts exactly, they're still monsters in CC as long as you remember to buy the Misericordia, they're just each getting to tote around a heavy bolter to boot.
I'm sad that the alternate fire mode is utterly pointless however.
The Venatari need to be cheaper if they're gonna be 3+. I'd prefer if they were made 2+, but if they're gonna be 3+ they need to be more like 40pts than 50pts base I think. The Pallas is awesome for 100pts, I expect we'll see a lot of them.
Doing the math, the twin las-pulsar seems much better than the salvo launchers
Depends on the target, what I am interested in is T8 3+, and against that even a single Salvo launcher does almost equal damage (2.2 dmg for pulsar, 2.1 dmg for salvo). Remember, Salvo launchers re-roll wounds against vehicles. Granted you give up a hurricane bolter for it, but 15 points for a salvo launcher vs 40 for the las-pulsar tips the scale even more.
In pretty much all common cases, the Hurricane bolters out-perform the lastrum bolters...even outside rapid-fire range. The sheer volume of fire at BS 2+ means you can get through even "tough" targets, and as we have pointed out in this thread ad naseum bikes ultimately have spears for those.
The two bikes having the same statline certainly helps out with the fact that I sourced guns to convert plastic bikes to have the forge world weapon setups, but it does look a lot like only the las ones will be hitting the table regularly.
I just realized how much better a Caladius grav tank is when compared to 4 Sagittarum guys.
12 shots with S5 -1 1dmg compared to
6 shots with S6 -2 AP 1dmg and 8 shots with S8 -3 AP d3 dmg for 10 points less.
the tank also has more than double the moving range
60" range with the 8 shots
can move and shoot without a penalty
can lose 9 wounds and still shoot with 3+ BS
nordsturmking wrote: I just realized how much better a Caladius grav tank is when compared to 4 Sagittarum guys.
12 shots with S5 -1 1dmg compared to
6 shots with S6 -2 AP 1dmg and 8 shots with S8 -3 AP d3 dmg for 10 points less.
the tank also has more than double the moving range
60" range with the 8 shots
can move and shoot without a penalty
can lose 9 wounds and still shoot with 3+ BS
how can a rules write not see this?
I suppose it’s cos the Sagittarum get a 2+/4++ whilst the Caladius only gets a 3+/5++. Would have to run the numbers for defensive comparison to determine how favourable it is. The only noticeable difference will prob be vs str 5 weapons, such as Dissie Cannons, the rest will be wounding them both on either 3’s or 5’s.
I’m personally more confused at the Heavy Blaze Cannons costing 50 points each and the Storm Cannons 40 points each, whilst the Storm Cannon gets 2 shots at a longer range, but the Blaze Cannon only gets 1 shot at half the range.
Not to mention the Palas gets a “normal” -twin- Blaze Cannon for 25 points, all be it at str 7 instead of 9.
Having different names for the same/similar weapons allows GW to adjust the points cost as and when, but, they do then appear to struggle to subsequently cost all the versions appropriately.
Doing the math, the twin las-pulsar seems much better than the salvo launchers
Depends on the target, what I am interested in is T8 3+, and against that even a single Salvo launcher does almost equal damage (2.2 dmg for pulsar, 2.1 dmg for salvo). Remember, Salvo launchers re-roll wounds against vehicles. Granted you give up a hurricane bolter for it, but 15 points for a salvo launcher vs 40 for the las-pulsar tips the scale even more.
I'd forgotten about the re-roll. I think the fact they are stronger against T7 3+ would make the argument conclusive, but as you say, 40pts vs 15pts is a fair amount across a whole squad (even at 3 models).
Doing the math, the twin las-pulsar seems much better than the salvo launchers
Depends on the target, what I am interested in is T8 3+, and against that even a single Salvo launcher does almost equal damage (2.2 dmg for pulsar, 2.1 dmg for salvo). Remember, Salvo launchers re-roll wounds against vehicles. Granted you give up a hurricane bolter for it, but 15 points for a salvo launcher vs 40 for the las-pulsar tips the scale even more.
I'd forgotten about the re-roll. I think the fact they are stronger against T7 3+ would make the argument conclusive, but as you say, 40pts vs 15pts is a fair amount across a whole squad (even at 3 models).
For 300 points, you could also run 3 Pallas. They will do –
T3, 5+: 1.67 / 2.22 / 4.44 / 3.333
T3, 4+: 1.39 / 1.67 / 3.33 / 2.778
T4, 3+: 0.89 / 0.83 / 1.66 / 2.222
T4, 2+: 0.67 / 0.42 / 0.84 / 1.667 / 2.778
T7, 3+: 0.44 / 0.56 / 1.12 / 1.296 / 3.75
T8, 3+: 0.44 / 0.28 / 0.56 / 1.296 / 2.778
Now, the Pallas aren’t as survivable, being the same toughness and worse saves, but, they also do provide a decent screen vs deep striking units.
I'm sad that the alternate fire mode is utterly pointless however.
All of the Adrastite weapons are quite inducing IMO. Low volume of fire, mediocre strength and a mortal wound on a 1 (exacerbated on multiple platforms with no PotMS) is a quick trip to the "never gonna see play" bin.
It’s similar to Erik Trocks list that he recently went 4-1 with, but cuts the blob of 9 Wardens for 6 Aquilon and another Culexus. Seems decent to me still.
nordsturmking wrote: I just realized how much better a Caladius grav tank is when compared to 4 Sagittarum guys.
12 shots with S5 -1 1dmg compared to
6 shots with S6 -2 AP 1dmg and 8 shots with S8 -3 AP d3 dmg for 10 points less.
the tank also has more than double the moving range
60" range with the 8 shots
can move and shoot without a penalty
can lose 9 wounds and still shoot with 3+ BS
how can a rules write not see this?
The tank is FAR less durable. The Sags also have Objective Secured (not worth a lot though)
Sagitarii are also reasonable melee combatants if you kit them out with Missies. Did a proxy run a few days ago, they're surprisingly well rounded infantry that make excellent disruptors. Their only real drawback is being HS instead of Troops or Elites.
Sterling191 wrote: Sagitarii are also reasonable melee combatants if you kit them out with Missies. Did a proxy run a few days ago, they're surprisingly well rounded infantry that make excellent disruptors. Their only real drawback is being HS instead of Troops or Elites.
Well 12 attacks at S5 AP-2 does go a long way.
The tank has Fly so that wouldn't matter too much, though it's a nice feeling that when your opponent charges your shooty unit they still get punched hard back.
Sterling191 wrote: Sagitarii are also reasonable melee combatants if you kit them out with Missies. Did a proxy run a few days ago, they're surprisingly well rounded infantry that make excellent disruptors. Their only real drawback is being HS instead of Troops or Elites.
Being troops would be really nice to free up some more space in a battalion.
They do get Sworn Protectors though; so at least they have Obj.Sec.
Sterling191 wrote: Sagitarii are also reasonable melee combatants if you kit them out with Missies. Did a proxy run a few days ago, they're surprisingly well rounded infantry that make excellent disruptors. Their only real drawback is being HS instead of Troops or Elites.
Being troops would be really nice to free up some more space in a battalion.
They do get Sworn Protectors though; so at least they have Obj.Sec.
the tank has the range to sit back and camp in your minus one banner though.
The tank has Fly so that wouldn't matter too much, though it's a nice feeling that when your opponent charges your shooty unit they still get punched hard back.
Moreso it makes them pretty damn good choices for screening squishier units. I'm currently experimenting running them as screens for a Deathwatch list. At T5/3W/2+/4++, +/- a Vexilla they require significant firepower to clear, and anything you run into them (to try and consolidate into the meat of the gunline) that isn't equally nasty up close is gonna get cut to ribbons by those Power Axe equivalent melee attacks.
the tank has the range to sit back and camp in your minus one banner though.
And if you're using Sagitarii to screen a gunline, they're easily gonna be in the bubble too with intelligent placement. Thats their strength, their versatility.
nordsturmking wrote: I just realized how much better a Caladius grav tank is when compared to 4 Sagittarum guys.
12 shots with S5 -1 1dmg compared to
6 shots with S6 -2 AP 1dmg and 8 shots with S8 -3 AP d3 dmg for 10 points less.
the tank also has more than double the moving range
60" range with the 8 shots
can move and shoot without a penalty
can lose 9 wounds and still shoot with 3+ BS
how can a rules write not see this?
The tank is FAR less durable. The Sags also have Objective Secured (not worth a lot though)
I disagree. It takes 14 las canon shots from a SM to kill it.Those 14 shots would also kill 3 Sag. Against anything less than S8 and -3 AP the tank is better off.
The Sagitarri sound quite divisive; which is not necessary a bad thing.
I have read about other players also having had good experience with them in 40k; particularly as you can take the Misacondria to give them power axe attacks.
Personally I'd still prefer a Caladius for it's superior movement stats.
I agree, with a 14" move, POTMS, and Fly you can zip around the board and fire with impunity as well as get cover much more easily than other vehicles should it need it. And with the nerf to the Telemon's Accelerator Culverins, the Caladius' Twin Accelerator Cannons pairs with it nicely to give them a wide range of targets between the both of them. For 210 points I think the Caladius' is a steal IMO.
changemod wrote: The Sagittarum are effectively lighter versions of Aquillon when you give them Misericordia.
That seems like a bit of a strange comparison to me given that they both have different roles and the ideal load out for Aquilons is probably the firepike with power gauntlets.
Darkseid wrote: The Sagitarri sound quite divisive; which is not necessary a bad thing.
I have read about other players also having had good experience with them in 40k; particularly as you can take the Misacondria to give them power axe attacks.
Personally I'd still prefer a Caladius for it's superior movement stats.
Fun part is, they're not mutually exclusive units. There's room, and a role, for both in a list.
changemod wrote: The Sagittarum are effectively lighter versions of Aquillon when you give them Misericordia.
That seems like a bit of a strange comparison to me given that they both have different roles and the ideal load out for Aquilons is probably the firepike with power gauntlets.
(Default) gun that fires heavy bolter rounds, capacity to move and shoot, close combat weapon with four solid attacks. (Plus four BS2+ shots at S5 AP-1 and D6 autohit shots at S6 AP-1 have essentially the same favoured targets.)
The Aquillon gets an extra wound, a better close combat weapon and native deep strike, but they’re pretty compatible in role.
changemod wrote: The Sagittarum are effectively lighter versions of Aquillon when you give them Misericordia.
That seems like a bit of a strange comparison to me given that they both have different roles and the ideal load out for Aquilons is probably the firepike with power gauntlets.
(Default) gun that fires heavy bolter rounds, capacity to move and shoot, close combat weapon with four solid attacks. (Plus four BS2+ shots at S5 AP-1 and D6 autohit shots at S6 AP-1 have essentially the same favoured targets.)
The Aquillon gets an extra wound, a better close combat weapon and native deep strike, but they’re pretty compatible in role.
At their price point, using Aquilons for anything other than ripping and tearing with S10 AP-4 power fists is a waste. 88 ppm for the firepike variant is damn pricey for a skirmisher.
changemod wrote: The Sagittarum are effectively lighter versions of Aquillon when you give them Misericordia.
That seems like a bit of a strange comparison to me given that they both have different roles and the ideal load out for Aquilons is probably the firepike with power gauntlets.
(Default) gun that fires heavy bolter rounds, capacity to move and shoot, close combat weapon with four solid attacks. (Plus four BS2+ shots at S5 AP-1 and D6 autohit shots at S6 AP-1 have essentially the same favoured targets.)
The Aquillon gets an extra wound, a better close combat weapon and native deep strike, but they’re pretty compatible in role.
At their price point, using Aquilons for anything other than ripping and tearing with S10 AP-4 power fists is a waste. 88 ppm for the firepike variant is damn pricey for a skirmisher.
Also, four shots at BS2+ is actually fractionally more accurate than d6 shots. Spending an additional 30 points on the unit for +1 strength probably isn’t worthwhile.
I have some Firepike terminators regardless because they look cool, but especially given that the kit came with claws I’m not exactly going to be taking them for their optimality.
The Lastrum Storm Bolters are definitely good but in a meta where -1 to hit can run rampant, autohitting can be a big deal especially if your opponent tries to tie your guys up in combat with chaff or backline counter chargers, in which case the overwatch is much better than with the Storm Bolters (not to mention you go from wounding from 3+ to 2+ against T3 and gain the ability to threaten T5 and T6 better). Either seem like a strong option but at least for me the 30 points you save taking the Storm Bolters make little difference to my lists.
Darkseid wrote: The Sagitarri sound quite divisive; which is not necessary a bad thing.
I have read about other players also having had good experience with them in 40k; particularly as you can take the Misacondria to give them power axe attacks.
Personally I'd still prefer a Caladius for it's superior movement stats.
Fun part is, they're not mutually exclusive units. There's room, and a role, for both in a list.
Role for sure; the room is a bit harder to find. Particularly in battalions, where you need to take a second HQ and 3 troops; the spare points are not easy to get by.
Maybe if I drop the Telemon for the Caladius ... but it is such a nice model
Darkseid wrote: The Sagitarri sound quite divisive; which is not necessary a bad thing.
I have read about other players also having had good experience with them in 40k; particularly as you can take the Misacondria to give them power axe attacks.
Personally I'd still prefer a Caladius for it's superior movement stats.
Fun part is, they're not mutually exclusive units. There's room, and a role, for both in a list.
Role for sure; the room is a bit harder to find. Particularly in battalions, where you need to take a second HQ and 3 troops; the spare points are not easy to get by.
Maybe if I drop the Telemon for the Caladius ... but it is such a nice model
Everytime I start building a list I just keep adding Telemons. I have 3 in my list currently.
Audustum wrote: Everytime I start building a list I just keep adding Telemons. I have 3 in my list currently.
The Vertus have been rightfully regarded as the unit that wins games for the custodes. Do the new FW units allow us to leave the Vertus at home and still be somewhat competitive?
Otherwise it's hard to fit all the shiny new tools into a single 1500 list.
Audustum wrote: Everytime I start building a list I just keep adding Telemons. I have 3 in my list currently.
The Vertus have been rightfully regarded as the unit that wins games for the custodes. Do the new FW units allow us to leave the Vertus at home and still be somewhat competitive?
Otherwise it's hard to fit all the shiny new tools into a single 1500 list.
I don't think you can leave the jetbike at home. The Telemon lack of mobility so it can easily be avoided by your enemy or tied up by the hordes.
Audustum wrote: Everytime I start building a list I just keep adding Telemons. I have 3 in my list currently.
The Vertus have been rightfully regarded as the unit that wins games for the custodes. Do the new FW units allow us to leave the Vertus at home and still be somewhat competitive?
Otherwise it's hard to fit all the shiny new tools into a single 1500 list.
I don't think you can leave the jetbike at home. The Telemon lack of mobility so it can easily be avoided by your enemy or tied up by the hordes.
Gotta disagree. The range on the Telemon is huge so nothing you really want to destroy should be able to ignore you with good deployment.
You can keep them out of melee very effectively with a Guard or AdMech CP battery. If you're staying pure, your Custodian Guard (for a battalion) can make an O.K. perimeter with your Shield-Captain+Vexillus heroically intervening anything that charges the gun nest.
I would actually say you should take Telemons/Aquillons/Foot-Sloggers OR Jetbikes. Our stuff is too expensive to bring it all, especially at 1,500.
So right now I am either running Jetbikes+Castellan Knight or Telemons+Aquillons+Allies/Custodians.
I still think Vertus Praetors are still among your best units but with all the new FW units I think you can be successful without spamming them too much, a unit of 3-4 models + a Dawneagle SC should be fine at 1500, and then at 2000 you're fine anywhere between 3-6 models split into 1 unit or 2. It's just really nice to see some variety in pure Custodes lists now and making them look pretty viable.
What's the general consensus on the Pallas? Looks pretty good, not the sturdiest vehicle around but fast, can fly, and has a decent weapon and good stats for 100pts. Was planning on having 2 in my 2k list alongside a Caldius, 3x Vertus' and a Vertus Captain, would this be any good?
Geoff Robinson posted up a video talking about his opinions of the models, and gave some hints at what the testing was like. He said he prefers the Galatus over the Achillus because of the 4+ save. Idk if his opinion will change, from what he was saying the Galatus Warblade gave +5 Str in testing.
KampfKrote wrote: Geoff Robinson posted up a video talking about his opinions of the models, and gave some hints at what the testing was like. He said he prefers the Galatus over the Achillus because of the 4+ save. Idk if his opinion will change, from what he was saying the Galatus Warblade gave +5 Str in testing.
The +5 str makes sense, as every other sword wielded by a robot gives some str bonus. Dreadknights for example are +4 and Armigers are x2 on one profile. I’m half expecting it to be an upload mistake.
Here’s the video for anyone wanting to watch it. NightsAtTheGameTable also posted a free article about the units, however it doesn’t go into as much detail. I’m still wanting to play around with Venatari. I think they could be a bit of a sleeper unit. Getting access to Tanglefoot is pretty big imo.
Also, screening with the Pallas + having a unit with tanglefoot can make your army pretty much unchargeable. -2 + -d6 inch to charge seems good.
The calladius grav tanks are amazing. Each one puts out the firepower of 5 hive guard (granted they dont ignore LOS) but with far more durability, mobility, and are buffable by trajann/shield captains/vexilla banners.
Definately wanna run a spearhead with 3 and trajann.
KampfKrote wrote: Geoff Robinson posted up a video talking about his opinions of the models, and gave some hints at what the testing was like. He said he prefers the Galatus over the Achillus because of the 4+ save. Idk if his opinion will change, from what he was saying the Galatus Warblade gave +5 Str in testing.
+5 STR would certainly change my opinion of it. Cause 4 STR 7 attacks is utter garbage on 155 pt model that has almost no shooting and barely moves faster than an infantry model. STR 7 means you can't even wound a space marine character on a 2+ whereas STR 12 opens up a lot more viable targets.
Darkseid wrote: One of the units I'm still confused about is the Coronus Grav-Carrier. It looks decent as a transport, mind you.
But I struggle to see a role in for it in my Custodes army.
How are you fielding yours?
I think it's good if you really need a transport but don't want a Land Raider. It doesn't have the firepower of a LR, but it's 100pts cheaper, and has fly so less likely to get bogged down.
Darkseid wrote: One of the units I'm still confused about is the Coronus Grav-Carrier. It looks decent as a transport, mind you.
But I struggle to see a role in for it in my Custodes army.
How are you fielding yours?
it's 100pts cheaper, and has fly so less likely to get bogged down.
This here is all that's important.
Less firepower aside (which is debatable for the points), Custodes are already an incredibly expensive army per model. Saving points for that purpose goes a long way, especially when that model won't be stopped from moving forward by a single Gaunt or anything.
KampfKrote wrote: Geoff Robinson posted up a video talking about his opinions of the models, and gave some hints at what the testing was like. He said he prefers the Galatus over the Achillus because of the 4+ save. Idk if his opinion will change, from what he was saying the Galatus Warblade gave +5 Str in testing.
+5 STR would certainly change my opinion of it. Cause 4 STR 7 attacks is utter garbage on 155 pt model that has almost no shooting and barely moves faster than an infantry model. STR 7 means you can't even wound a space marine character on a 2+ whereas STR 12 opens up a lot more viable targets.
Well the thing would have a 3++ for what that's worth. Not a lot of course, but Knights won't kill it in one go at least.
IMO the Venatari Lances are solid but I prefer the pistol + buckler combo personally. Helps mitigate the 3+ save by ignoring AP-1, and the melee is still very solid and can handle GEQs/MEQs just fine. The 18" on the pistol also helps them by keeping them out of rapid fire range and gives them shooting if they're stuck in combat, also helps in their role as a harassment/objective stealer/troop killer unit. Lances are nice if you need even more multi damage melee but we already have plenty of units that can do that.
Mr. Funktastic wrote: IMO the Venatari Lances are solid but I prefer the pistol + buckler combo personally. Helps mitigate the 3+ save by ignoring AP-1, and the melee is still very solid and can handle GEQs/MEQs just fine. The 18" on the pistol also helps them by keeping them out of rapid fire range and gives them shooting if they're stuck in combat, also helps in their role as a harassment/objective stealer/troop killer unit. Lances are nice if you need even more multi damage melee but we already have plenty of units that can do that.
The only AP-1 that would be a threat off the top of my head is the Predator Autocannon. Otherwise they're wounded at a low enough rate that I wouldn't care.
Also keep in mind there's a world of difference between a Marine getting a 5+ save in melee and a 6+ save in melee, and more fast ways to deliver multi-damage weapons isn't exactly a bad thing.
I’m hoping the Venatari are better than they look on paper. I think access to Tanglefoot on a unit with 12” movement is nothing to scoff at. I’ve been working on a few lists with them, and my models should arrive this weekend.
I think the Venatari are just fine and you're right, a highly mobile unit that can use tanglefoot grenade can't be underestimated. Combined with some clever positioning with your grav vehicles to cover your units vulnerable to melee and suddenly you've made charges for your opponent extremely difficult if not impossible.
@Slayer-Fan that's fair, people's biggest gripe with them is their 3+ save but the best weapons against Custodes are typically weapons like plasma, so they would go to their 4++ anyway. And if you're really that concerned about AP0, an infantry unit with that kind of mobility could probably get cover pretty easily. IMO either is a viable option, it just depends on what you are doing with them and it might not be a bad idea to mix weapons in the unit. The Lances definitely help if you face a lot of Primaris though.
Mr. Funktastic wrote: I think the Venatari are just fine and you're right, a highly mobile unit that can use tanglefoot grenade can't be underestimated. Combined with some clever positioning with your grav vehicles to cover your units vulnerable to melee and suddenly you've made charges for your opponent extremely difficult if not impossible.
@Slayer-Fan that's fair, people's biggest gripe with them is their 3+ save but the best weapons against Custodes are typically weapons like plasma, so they would go to their 4++ anyway. And if you're really that concerned about AP0, an infantry unit with that kind of mobility could probably get cover pretty easily. IMO either is a viable option, it just depends on what you are doing with them.
1-2 extra shots with the gun simply isn't worth the exchange from multi-damage melee, especially when, as you said, they're mobile enough to get cover if it is really necessary.
For me personally, the biggest benefit is the 18" range with given their move, it gives them a 30" threat range, with the extra hits being icing on the cake. I face enough autocannons, assault cannons, Gauss weapons, and massed rending claws and not enough Primaris and multi wound elite models without invulnerable saves in my meta to make me consider the Buckler. However, throwing in a single Lance to my 3 man unit is worth considering to at least make them be a threat to multi wound units in a pinch.
So is it just me or do the Aquillon with Solarite Guantlets and Storm Cannon Telemon seem to fulfill the same role, ish? Both have a solid anti-infantry mode and a solid anti-tank power. The difference is one is melee and one is ranged. They're even about the same points.
With no ability to re-roll charge though, the Telemon seem better.
I do have to say, I’m a bit disappointed that the Buckler rule from 30k reduces incoming AP by 1, and the 40K rule just ignores AP -1. Would be much, much better if you could benefit from cover and have the AP reduced by 1.
I haven’t messed around with any lists that run Grav Tanks and Venatari, maybe that is my next project.
Audustum wrote: So is it just me or do the Aquillon with Solarite Guantlets and Storm Cannon Telemon seem to fulfill the same role, ish? Both have a solid anti-infantry mode and a solid anti-tank power. The difference is one is melee and one is ranged. They're even about the same points.
With no ability to re-roll charge though, the Telemon seem better.
If you're talking about purely from a "this unit is good against these types of units" standpoint, then you got a point. I think just the threat of deep striking into your opponent's backline with Aquilons forces your opponent to make different decisions in terms of target priority and being able to tie up a shooting unit with the best melee our army has to offer changes the game differently than getting into a straight up firefight with Telemons.
Speaking of deep striking, has anyone figured out a good strategy in using the Vexilla Teleport Homer, or is using the Praetorian Plate and hoping things work out the best move we have with using that stratagem?
The homer is basically a turn 3 gimmick: you deepstrike the vexilla turn 2, and turn 3 you drop your deepstriking units on top of him. You can already move the vexilla 18+3D6 inches by then, so if you think 12+2D6" is enough you can bring your deepstrikers in turn 2. The problem is that turn 3 is waayyy too late to be bringing in several hundred points of your army. Praetorian Plate can be ok but only if you have a unit that can move fast enough turn 1/2 to make use of it. Cause in the end, remember that by turn 2 a Jetbike captain's charge range is 28+2D6" (assuming you don't advance for an additional 6" T1) from his starting position...that's probably enough.
The Praetorian Plate seems like the best way to use it. Might help if they're an assault army that decides to charge YOU instead, but it's still not particularly reliable if your opponent is wise to what you're doing and decides to fall back on their turn instead to completely shut down that strategy. Shame, Custodes could use a better way to make those 9" deep strike charges a little easier.
If you are willing to use the Orion dropship,
you embark the vexilla turn 1 (the Orion is at -2 to hit if you have second turn) and you move in enemey line.
you disembark turn 2 moving 9’’ and you use the stratagem
But maybe we can’t sonce the model was not on the battlefield...
RenegadeKorps wrote: If you are willing to use the Orion dropship,
you embark the vexilla turn 1 (the Orion is at -2 to hit if you have second turn) and you move in enemey line.
you disembark turn 2 moving 9’’ and you use the stratagem
But maybe we can’t sonce the model was not on the battlefield...
Might as well put the Terminators in the Orion at that stage and save yourself 3 CP
Although you should always have a banner around for that sweet sweet -2 to hit either way.
Yeah at that point I might as well take a Coronus and move them up myself. I've heard people having some success just foot slogging the Vexilla up the board and using it midfield so we'll see. Might be fun to do it in some casual games and see if it's worth it at all, or give the Praetorian Plate a try. Guess it depends on if getting 18 + 2d6 (2 turns of advancing plus 6" on the Vexilla Teleport Homer range) is enough to get to the deep striking unit's targets while still getting better than a 9" charge.
Saw this on Bolter and Chainsword. It was apparently mentioned on the live stream:
Rinion
Good note from the WHTV livestream today, legit GW main Codex team rules, and as legitimate as the Sisters of Battle Beta Codex and the Beta Bolter rule, and allowed at GW events, and not Forge World, so if Sister of Battle are allowed at ETC/ITC etc then these are too, or should be. Some people get uppity about Forge World rules use, but these are not. Only the physical miniatures are FW.
WildWeasel
Yes, you need a paid sub to watch back videos.
What they mean is that these Custodes beta rules have gone through the same process and have the same "weight" as the beta SoB and Bolter Drill rules. What any given event allows is still entirely up to the TO's - even GW and WHW has different events that do different things. Basically, what they are saying is if someone goes "These beta Custodes rules are janky FW rules" they are wrong.
Mark0sian
The legit main codex teams means these rules were written by the same team who wrote all the 8th edition 40k codexes. Originally these Custodes rules were going to be written by the Forgeworld rules team which meant GW could ignore them, however now they are written by GWs own team they have to include them in any GW event. If an independent event disallowed them it would be the equivalent of disallowing the sisters of battle beta codex and when they are finalised it would be the equivalent of disallowing Codex: Orks or any other codex.
Good news if you want to take these to a tournament!
I posed this question in the Deathwatch Tactic thread, but it fits here as well:
I'm building a 2 Battalion DW army with no vehicles and very generous with Stormbolters and Stormshields. But I'm a bit light on anti-tank ranged weapons.
I'll be including 3 Dawneagle Sheild Captains (which is where the question comes in).
Typically I only see lists with them equipped with Hurricane Bolters, which seem to be the better choice for them.
But since my list will already have tons of SIA SBs, would it be worth upgrading to Salvo Launchers for the Shield Capts?
Even at -1 to hit for moving (because why wouldn't you move them) they still hit on 3+ rerolling 1s. and it's only 1 pt more than a regular Melta but twice the range and reroll wounds on vehicles all the time.
So while not the most optimized for the Capts themselves, the nature of my list makes the Hurricane bolters redundant and the Salvo Launcher fills a dire need.
Galef wrote: I posed this question in the Deathwatch Tactic thread, but it fits here as well:
I'm building a 2 Battalion DW army with no vehicles and very generous with Stormbolters and Stormshields. But I'm a bit light on anti-tank ranged weapons.
I'll be including 3 Dawneagle Sheild Captains (which is where the question comes in).
Typically I only see lists with them equipped with Hurricane Bolters, which seem to be the better choice for them.
But since my list will already have tons of SIA SBs, would it be worth upgrading to Salvo Launchers for the Shield Capts?
Even at -1 to hit for moving (because why wouldn't you move them) they still hit on 3+ rerolling 1s. and it's only 1 pt more than a regular Melta but twice the range and reroll wounds on vehicles all the time.
So while not the most optimized for the Capts themselves, the nature of my list makes the Hurricane bolters redundant and the Salvo Launcher fills a dire need.
Thoughts?
-
I haven't rechecked the math in a long time, but last time we discussed the loadouts it's because the difference is negligible against some of the Salvo's preferred targets.
Against a T7 3+ vehicle, the Salvo's Melta shot averages 2.41 damage. Against a 4++ Knight it averages 1.03. Against a 3++ Knight it averages .68.
Against a T7 3+ vehicle, the Hurricane Bolter averages .65/1.30 damage (Out of Rapid Fire/Rapid Fire). Against a 4++ Knight it averages .32/.65 (Out of Rapid Fire/Rapid Fire) Against a 3++ Knight it averages the same.
Basically, the higher the invulnerable on your target, the closer the two weapons become (being about equal in Rapid Fire range against an Ion Bulwark Knight with Rotate Ion Shields). If you're shooting at a lot of T7/3+ 'standard' vehicles, then it could definitely help a list like yours. If you're shooting competitive Imperial Knights, not so much.
Audustum wrote: I haven't rechecked the math in a long time, but last time we discussed the loadouts it's because the difference is negligible against some of the Salvo's preferred targets.
Against a T7 3+ vehicle, the Salvo's Melta shot averages 2.41 damage. Against a 4++ Knight it averages 1.03. Against a 3++ Knight it averages .68.
Against a T7 3+ vehicle, the Hurricane Bolter averages .65/1.30 damage (Out of Rapid Fire/Rapid Fire). Against a 4++ Knight it averages .32/.65 (Out of Rapid Fire/Rapid Fire) Against a 3++ Knight it averages the same.
Basically, the higher the invulnerable on your target, the closer the two weapons become (being about equal in Rapid Fire range against an Ion Bulwark Knight with Rotate Ion Shields). If you're shooting at a lot of T7/3+ 'standard' vehicles, then it could definitely help a list like yours. If you're shooting competitive Imperial Knights, not so much.
Thanx. That's good news. As much as I like the Hurricane Bolters, they just don't seem like they are adding a huge boost to my list, whereas the Melta Missiles seem very necessary.
Although the list I am working on probably won't do very good against a Knight list at all. At least not at range. I've got plenty of Thunder Hammers in the list for Knights though, plus the Shield Captains.
Is the Telemon still good with the nerfs compared to the grav tanks. I am in the process of building mine and its such a great model to build. The tanks on the other hand look ass...
I really like the Telemon with two Illiastus Culverins. For 242 pts it is a “mini” Leviathan Dreadnought with a FNP. I’ve also been toying around with the Galatus, the 4++ has been really good. I think for 155 pts, it’s a pretty good character/elite killer.
I would expect the Galatus to have it's CC strength increased based on previous discussion. S:User on a Dreadnought CCW must surely be a typo.
Telemon has been readjusted but not significantly nerfed I'd say. Compared to the old Accelerator cannons (which I think were too cheap before), a Storm cannon Telemon now has about the same chaff clearing ability, and improved damage vs T8 vehicles, at greater range, all for 40 points less. It lost some performance vs multi wound infantry and certain niche targets such as Daemon primarchs. Still has the same A+++ durability with only a wound (or 2?) less.
As I posted a while ago it can now reasonably be expected to knock out a LRBT or equivalent target every turn, whereas before it would do about 8 or 9 wounds. In a Custodes list where it's likely that the Telemon is your only solid source of ranged AT, that's an important breakpoint. I'm considering ordering a second at this stage.
I think double Arachnus Storm Cannons is the way to go for the Telemon. Great anti-vehicle and anti-infantry in one makes it a very versatile weapon and with the nerf to the Accelerator Culverins the Arachnus Storm Cannons out performs it against both vehicles and infantry now but not against multi wound elite infantry, which we have plenty of other units that can address those. With the overall points decrease, it's at least as good as it was before all things considered. Definitely still one of Custodes' best units.
Not exactly tactica but I figure I'll ask here anyway. So I have a few custom bases left over from the rest of my army I'd like to use for my Venatari but the flight stems don't sit flat on the bases at all, the whole surface is at an angle. Would it be in bad taste/modeling for advantage if I modeled them on foot without the flight stems? They would only be losing about 1/4" in height, which may make a difference in obscuring their model behind barricades (possibly affecting whether or not they get a cover save).
It certainly is a nice model to put together. With 2 I think you'd be committing to mono-custodes but I dont feel that is viable. Are people still committed to making it work?
Erik Trock and Shane Watts are both playing Mono Custodes at LVO. We will see how the event goes for them. I’m super interested in Trock. He keeps playing lists with these 9 Warden blobs.
Speaking of, it seems like Wardens are fitting a role like Bullgryns. I’m gonna try out his list soon, obviously I won’t replicate his play, but I’m still trying to understand how footslogging Custodians can win in the current meta. With the amounts of Orks I’ve seen, not having Hurricane Bolters feels bad.
It certainly is a nice model to put together. With 2 I think you'd be committing to mono-custodes but I don't feel that is viable. Are people still committed to making it work?
Yeah sure is, I love how it's pre-prepped for magnets. Could still go outrider of bikes, plus 2 Teleboys, banner guy and battalion of Guard if you wanna min-max it. But I don't go to tournaments, pure Custodes is funner, and strong enough for my games.
KampfKrote wrote: Erik Trock and Shane Watts are both playing Mono Custodes at LVO. We will see how the event goes for them. I’m super interested in Trock. He keeps playing lists with these 9 Warden blobs.
Speaking of, it seems like Wardens are fitting a role like Bullgryns. I’m gonna try out his list soon, obviously I won’t replicate his play, but I’m still trying to understand how footslogging Custodians can win in the current meta. With the amounts of Orks I’ve seen, not having Hurricane Bolters feels bad.
I am definitely interested in these lists if you don't mind sharing them.
KampfKrote wrote: Erik Trock and Shane Watts are both playing Mono Custodes at LVO. We will see how the event goes for them. I’m super interested in Trock. He keeps playing lists with these 9 Warden blobs.
Speaking of, it seems like Wardens are fitting a role like Bullgryns. I’m gonna try out his list soon, obviously I won’t replicate his play, but I’m still trying to understand how footslogging Custodians can win in the current meta. With the amounts of Orks I’ve seen, not having Hurricane Bolters feels bad.
I am definitely interested in these lists if you don't mind sharing them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also Shane Watts has a thread going on Bolter & Chainsword discussing his LVO list. It's basically just bikes, banner, and a min battalion, nothing radical but no allies.
He said that the Loyal 32 he used to bring would often die easily in the backfield, turning some of his wins into losses (I assume due to the ITC objectives format, not that familiar with it).
KampfKrote wrote: Erik Trock and Shane Watts are both playing Mono Custodes at LVO. We will see how the event goes for them. I’m super interested in Trock. He keeps playing lists with these 9 Warden blobs.
Speaking of, it seems like Wardens are fitting a role like Bullgryns. I’m gonna try out his list soon, obviously I won’t replicate his play, but I’m still trying to understand how footslogging Custodians can win in the current meta. With the amounts of Orks I’ve seen, not having Hurricane Bolters feels bad.
I am definitely interested in these lists if you don't mind sharing them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also Shane Watts has a thread going on Bolter & Chainsword discussing his LVO list. It's basically just bikes, banner, and a min battalion, nothing radical but no allies.
He said that the Loyal 32 he used to bring would often die easily in the backfield, turning some of his wins into losses (I assume due to the ITC objectives format, not that familiar with it).
Hmm, interesting. I personally would've dropped the Terminators for 1 additional member each for the troops and then an Eversor for dirty and cheap horde destroying.
More importantly, he's not running any bikers outside a Captain. That's interesting to me.
Also what you're talking about might be Reaper, where you score an additional VP for killing a squad of 10+ models. If you wanna avoid that, typically you take a heavy weapon. Was he not doing that?
3 Melta Spear is 180
3 Las Pulsar bike is 360
3 salvo bike is 285
Spears will cost a CP as you don't want to run them up the field being only 12 inch range, and bikes are obviously faster. Bikes though hit on 3s most of the time as a big part of them being useful is on the charge.
I think they are pretty point efficient, and looks even better as 5 guys since they are only 15 points more then the 3 salvo bikes, hit on 2s and get 5 shots to the 3 of bikes.
I feel the Las Pulsar bikes are pretty terrible all over. They don't really have a role. You can get lots of other anti tank or anti chaf for cheaper
Also what you're talking about might be Reaper, where you score an additional VP for killing a squad of 10+ models. If you wanna avoid that, typically you take a heavy weapon. Was he not doing that?
Reaper no longer works like that. Its kill every 20 models to get 1 point. In a custodes list even with loyal 32, no one will pick this secondary as at best it will give you 2 out of 4.
Loyal 32 can however easily give away Kill One primary.
I'm writing a custodes list, and I've got 1210 points to play with. Trying to figure out the best possible loadout.
I only have seven Jetbikes in total, and will be getting ten command points from my other detachments of Sisters of Battle. I don't have any Terminator models, but I do have Traajan.
What's the best configuration for what I can take? If I have points leftover I can spend them on the Sisters of Battle.
I can't work out any way to take a Battalion and all of my bikes without going over on points. I could take a Battalion with two Jetbike captains and only four bikes in a squad, but that seems suboptimal.
I can always just take a Patrol detachment with a Jetbike captain, six Jetbikes, and then one great big unit of Custodians - This did pretty well for me at a previous tournament, albeit a tournament with a smaller points value. I'd be able to take Nine custodians, which is a pretty imposing unit to be able to Deep Strike.
Or, as a variant of that, I could take a smaller unit of Custodians with a buff character - I'm leaning towards Trajan, for the rerolls and the Command Point refund, or else a Vexilus with the standard Magnifica, to give my bikes more durability in the earlygame and save a possibility for super-close Deep Strikes. (Autocharging Custodes from Deep Strike, if I can get in close and lucky.)
NOTE: It occurs to me that I could make it a battalion if I wanted to, by dropping one of my Sisters of Battle battalions. This wouldn't gain me any command points, but if I wanted to take more custodians it would be possible.
I don't think that's worth it, but it's something to consider.
Waaaghpower wrote: I'm writing a custodes list, and I've got 1210 points to play with. Trying to figure out the best possible loadout.
I only have seven Jetbikes in total, and will be getting ten command points from my other detachments of Sisters of Battle. I don't have any Terminator models, but I do have Traajan.
What's the best configuration for what I can take? If I have points leftover I can spend them on the Sisters of Battle.
I can't work out any way to take a Battalion and all of my bikes without going over on points. I could take a Battalion with two Jetbike captains and only four bikes in a squad, but that seems suboptimal.
I can always just take a Patrol detachment with a Jetbike captain, six Jetbikes, and then one great big unit of Custodians - This did pretty well for me at a previous tournament, albeit a tournament with a smaller points value. I'd be able to take Nine custodians, which is a pretty imposing unit to be able to Deep Strike.
Or, as a variant of that, I could take a smaller unit of Custodians with a buff character - I'm leaning towards Trajan, for the rerolls and the Command Point refund, or else a Vexilus with the standard Magnifica, to give my bikes more durability in the earlygame and save a possibility for super-close Deep Strikes. (Autocharging Custodes from Deep Strike, if I can get in close and lucky.)
NOTE: It occurs to me that I could make it a battalion if I wanted to, by dropping one of my Sisters of Battle battalions. This wouldn't gain me any command points, but if I wanted to take more custodians it would be possible.
I don't think that's worth it, but it's something to consider.
You could take a Supreme Command det of 3x Shield Captains as well as a unit of 3-4 Vertus. Not sure if Sisters would be a good combo, as from what I've read they're still only mid-tier and their main gimmick (AoF) will ever hardly perform miracles (ironically).
I think you'll have to decide between wanting all your bikes or trimming some points off elsewhere from your Sisters. Personally I'd go for the latter.
You could take a Supreme Command det of 3x Shield Captains as well as a unit of 3-4 Vertus. Not sure if Sisters would be a good combo, as from what I've read they're still only mid-tier and their main gimmick (AoF) will ever hardly perform miracles (ironically).
I think you'll have to decide between wanting all your bikes or trimming some points off elsewhere from your Sisters. Personally I'd go for the latter.
I played a similar version of this list at a 1750pt tournament and was quite happy with the Sisters' performance. They function a lot like the Loyal 32, acting as extremely efficient Command Point batteries, then to boost up my anti-tank since I'm quite low on it, I added in four meltaguns and two combi-meltas, and threw some of the squads into Repressors. I run them as Bloody Rose, which means they also have a decent, (if not great,) amount of counter-charge capacity. Against light infantry or hordes they can actually hold their own and kick some serious butt. (One Canoness will actually be able to deal serious damage to enemy beatsticks and monsters, too - She'll have 5 or 6 WS2+, S6, AP-3, D3 attacks that reroll hits and wounds.
More importantly, if I need Deny the Witch I take the Brazier of Eternal Flame and I suddenly have four or five DtW rolls that can easily shut down enemy psykers, on top of a 1cp Strategem to shut down powers on a 4+.
All in all, I've got ten Command Points, four or five Deny the Witch, six mobile Meltaguns with a pair of 12w boxes to keep them safe, four mobile Heavy Flamers, and a massive amount of board control for 790pts. You're right, though - The Acts of Faith to jack all and might as well not exist.
Supreme Command Detachments only allow for HQ and Elites, so how would I bring in the Vertus Praetors? I'm limited to three detachments and already have two full Battalions of sisters of battle.
Incidentally, I did work out a variant where I drop two of the Heavy Flamers from the repressor and I have just enough points to bring two Shield Captain bikes, 3x three-man squads of Custodians, and five regular jetbikes. That's all my bikes, but I'm worried the three-man Custodians won't have enough weight behind them to be worth deep striking, and they're incredibly slow on foot.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Okay, I have two "Good" options:
Jetbike Captain
8x Custodians with Spears
Vexillus Magnifica (-1 To Hit)
2x 3 Jetbikes
OR
2x Jetbike Captain
3x Three Custodians with Spears
5 Jetbikes
The points cost is identical.
Option A has the advantage of a denser unit, better durability for my jetbikes on turn one (Because -1 To Hit,) and much more efficient use of Strategems on the big squad. I can Deep Strike them all together, (Directly adjacent to the Vexillus, if I want, allowing for a short range charge,) Piercing Strike is fabulous on a giant unit, and Avenge the Fallen allows for a huge amount of attacks if I get charged by a threatening unit. (What's that? You killed two or three of my Custodians? I now have more attacks than I had before.)
Option B gives me a bit more flexibility in deployment and five more Command Points, but I lose out on durability for my jetbikes the first time I get blasted, and three small squads are a lot less Command Point efficient.
So I have been waffling on guardian squad load outs. When considering a battalion formation I am wondering how necessary is a storm shield in a 3 man squad? And how viable is a storm shield and blade shield captain?
BrotherGecko wrote: So I have been waffling on guardian squad load outs. When considering a battalion formation I am wondering how necessary is a storm shield in a 3 man squad? And how viable is a storm shield and blade shield captain?
I always like to run a shield in my 3 man squads. When I run a mostly foot list, anything without a 3++ tends to be the target of heavy weapons, so the best remedy is to give every unit a 3++. Different story if you're going to teleport a bigger squad, or put them in a transport - you can probably afford to go all spears.
Storm shield on a Captain is fine, but if you can its better to give him the Eagles eye relic and have the best of both worlds. Better yet, put him on a bike.
I have been running the grav tanks with The captain-general. They do work.
Just did a game with 2 Bike captains 2 units of Vertus 1 Grav-attack, Trajann, and 3 Grav tanks (w/ 3 Assassins) vs an Admech force with a Gallant. Ran roughshod over him. Only model I lost was the grav-attack. Several got banged up but were still kicking in the end.
They're like, what, 7 points more than a Guardian, get two extra attacks (including the misercordia) and a 6+ ignore wounds roll? Why are these guys not the staple of every Custodes list???
...no, really, why? In other words, how to use Wardens effectively, from a tactical standpoint. Should they basically supplant/replace my regular Guardians? What do I dooo.
Note, I'm not asking whether to take Wardens, or if they're better than Allarus - that argument is done to death. I just want to know tactically the best way to use them.
Deep Strike them and enjoy the fact the opponent has to really commit to killing them.
Sole purpose of Guardians is to make sure those objectives are kept and generating CP. Assuming you run Guard alongside though, this would not be an argument in their favor.
In my opinion if your going to use them best as a Deepstrike unit or in an Orion. They are tough customers bit not durable enough to take a pounding in the open. Getting them to their target seems to be a bit of a trick.
Even though they are on fairly large bases, they still come in a unit of 3, which is fairly easy to squeeze in with their deep strike. With the 12" range, they can pop in like 11" away from a character on turn 2/3 and snipe them off as long as your opponent isn't a perfectionist with his placement.
Eihnlazer wrote: The game fell a bit short but let me tell you, the firepikes are probably the best assassin weapon in the game atm.
3d6 str6 hits with -1 ap hitting a character is pretty effective at killing them.
Took 5 wounds off a C'tan, and one shot an overlord with the two squads I took.
the 12" range from deep strike really gives you some flexability in their deep strike to hit characters that aren't completely surrounded by troops.
Huh, maybe I will give them a second chance. Last time I used them, I deep struck them into a GSC backfield. On the GSC player's turn, they ate 20D6 S3 auto-hits from his infantry squad, which he brought in from deep strike in response. Hurt them pretty bad.
guys, I am trying to build a custodes/militarum list focussed on a vexilia drop and i am pretty sure, someone from the top custodes players played this kind of a list at LVO. Does somebody have a screenshot of that list? i am torn between a allarus, a quilons and warden drop and need some advice
when comboing Custodes with AM you either take the loyal 32 and max your custodes or you take the AM brigade and max dawneagles.
You can take an AM catachan brigade and a custodes outrider with 13 bikes + biker captain in a 2000 point list. This list will destroy any infantry army your opponent can pull together, but its fairly weak againgst knights, which is why you don't see it often.
Im running a list with more custodes (less bikes) atm and the loyal 32.
COLD CASH wrote: So who thinks custodes with assassin's is now a thing, strangely enough it both boosts and counters custodes!
I like assassins, I would happily run 3 Culexus in almost any Imperial list.
The problem is room.
Getting Custodes with something else to give CP and stuff to be able to deal with Knights often doesn't have room, in points or detachments, to also put in Assassins.
If you want to compromise on anti-knight stuff then yeah sure, you can. And I suspect it will be quite good.
Okay just ran a game With my Custodes/Guard/Knight list. Captain on Dawneagle(Warlord) with a Unit of Bikers and 3 Grav tanks. Guard was loyal 32 with 2 HWTs(Mortars). IK was Krast Gallant and 2 Warglaives.
Failed to get turn 1 even with the +1 vs Tau Gunline. Also the long table delpoyment. He had 3 Riptides and a Unit of 3 broadsides. A unit of 10(?) I think shield drones making sure his big boys were a pain to kill. Rest was mostly stuff that didn't impact the game much (Darkstrider, Shadowsun, FWs and some Sniper drones)
Turn 1 He takes out 2 of the Bikers (Had left 1 just slightly out form behind a ruin. And puts a Warglaive to 2 Health. Mortars manage to knock out a FW team holding an object and a Sniper drone team. The Grav Tanks blow away all his shield drones and put a few wounds on a riptide and Broadside. All knights advance up the field.
Turn 2 he takes out Both Armigers and Dings up the Knight to just above half. Grav tanks take out a full HP riptide and 2 of the Broadsides. The Remaining biker and Knight attempt charges on the 2 Remaining Riptides only to fail both charges.
Turn 3 Erases The Knight, Biker and 1 of my Grav Tanks. Return fire kills 1 of the remaining Riptides and the mortars have Killed everything not a character except for 2 Fire warriors, 1 Broadside and the last riptide.
Turn 4 sees a few guard dying but he is now having to to advance a bit. The Riptide get put to 4 health and the last FW squad and Broadside is killed.
Turn 5 he concedes as by points I'm up 23 to 8.
The Grav-tanks oh my goodness. Those things literally picked up the game on their shoulders and carried the whole game. I couldn't make any saves to save my life and my opponent was rolling pretty good. (Not great he definitely had some sub-par save rolls but his shooting was fantastic) But they focused down target after target. Mortars did good clearing out chaff too but the Grav tanks were pure murder. Couldn't have been happier with them.
Eihnlazer wrote: when comboing Custodes with AM you either take the loyal 32 and max your custodes or you take the AM brigade and max dawneagles.
You can take an AM catachan brigade and a custodes outrider with 13 bikes + biker captain in a 2000 point list. This list will destroy any infantry army your opponent can pull together, but its fairly weak againgst knights, which is why you don't see it often.
Im running a list with more custodes (less bikes) atm and the loyal 32.
Hmmm bikes dont work that well anymore over here. Too much terrain esp. ruins. Thats why i was thinking about a working vexila drop with alarus or wardens and would like to see that list. Thanks anyway though.
Khadorstompy wrote: Okay just ran a game With my Custodes/Guard/Knight list. Captain on Dawneagle(Warlord) with a Unit of Bikers and 3 Grav tanks. Guard was loyal 32 with 2 HWTs(Mortars). Custodes was Krast Gallant and 2 Warglaives.
Spoiler:
Failed to get turn 1 even with the +1 vs Tau Gunline. Also the long table delpoyment. He had 3 Riptides and a Unit of 3 broadsides. A unit of 10(?) I think shield drones making sure his big boys were a pain to kill. Rest was mostly stuff that didn't impact the game much (Darkstrider, Shadowsun, FWs and some Sniper drones)
Turn 1 He takes out 2 of the Bikers (Had left 1 just slightly out form behind a ruin. And puts a Warglaive to 2 Health. Mortars manage to knock out a FW team holding an object and a Sniper drone team. The Grav Tanks blow away all his shield drones and put a few wounds on a riptide and Broadside. All knights advance up the field.
Turn 2 he takes out Both Armigers and Dings up the Knight to just above half. Grav tanks take out a full HP riptide and 2 of the Broadsides. The Remaining biker and Knight attempt charges on the 2 Remaining Riptides only to fail both charges.
Turn 3 Erases The Knight, Biker and 1 of my Grav Tanks. Return fire kills 1 of the remaining Riptides and the mortars have Killed everything not a character except for 2 Fire warriors, 1 Broadside and the last riptide.
Turn 4 sees a few guard dying but he is now having to to advance a bit. The Riptide get put to 4 health and the last FW squad and Broadside is killed.
Turn 5 he concedes as by points I'm up 23 to 8.
The Grav-tanks oh my goodness. Those things literally picked up the game on their shoulders and carried the whole game. I couldn't make any saves to save my life and my opponent was rolling pretty good. (Not great he definitely had some sub-par save rolls but his shooting was fantastic) But they focused down target after target. Mortars did good clearing out chaff too but the Grav tanks were pure murder. Couldn't have been happier with them.
Iago40k wrote: guys, I am trying to build a custodes/militarum list focussed on a vexilia drop and i am pretty sure, someone from the top custodes players played this kind of a list at LVO. Does somebody have a screenshot of that list? i am torn between a allarus, a quilons and warden drop and need some advice
Khadorstompy wrote: Okay just ran a game With my Custodes/Guard/Knight list. Captain on Dawneagle(Warlord) with a Unit of Bikers and 3 Grav tanks. Guard was loyal 32 with 2 HWTs(Mortars). Custodes was Krast Gallant and 2 Warglaives.
Spoiler:
Failed to get turn 1 even with the +1 vs Tau Gunline. Also the long table delpoyment. He had 3 Riptides and a Unit of 3 broadsides. A unit of 10(?) I think shield drones making sure his big boys were a pain to kill. Rest was mostly stuff that didn't impact the game much (Darkstrider, Shadowsun, FWs and some Sniper drones)
Turn 1 He takes out 2 of the Bikers (Had left 1 just slightly out form behind a ruin. And puts a Warglaive to 2 Health. Mortars manage to knock out a FW team holding an object and a Sniper drone team. The Grav Tanks blow away all his shield drones and put a few wounds on a riptide and Broadside. All knights advance up the field.
Turn 2 he takes out Both Armigers and Dings up the Knight to just above half. Grav tanks take out a full HP riptide and 2 of the Broadsides. The Remaining biker and Knight attempt charges on the 2 Remaining Riptides only to fail both charges.
Turn 3 Erases The Knight, Biker and 1 of my Grav Tanks. Return fire kills 1 of the remaining Riptides and the mortars have Killed everything not a character except for 2 Fire warriors, 1 Broadside and the last riptide.
Turn 4 sees a few guard dying but he is now having to to advance a bit. The Riptide get put to 4 health and the last FW squad and Broadside is killed.
Turn 5 he concedes as by points I'm up 23 to 8.
The Grav-tanks oh my goodness. Those things literally picked up the game on their shoulders and carried the whole game. I couldn't make any saves to save my life and my opponent was rolling pretty good. (Not great he definitely had some sub-par save rolls but his shooting was fantastic) But they focused down target after target. Mortars did good clearing out chaff too but the Grav tanks were pure murder. Couldn't have been happier with them.
What 3 Grav tanks you running? Pallas?
Caladius is the actual only grav-TANK atm. the Pallas is a grav-ATTACK.
Its really easy to set aside 85 points in a custodes list too. My new list is REALLY good. Problem is I don't have all the models yet. FW needs to crank out some more tanks fast.
10 Wardens
1 Captain Dawn Eagle on Jetbike
1 Vexelus Preator with Magnifica
1 Orion Drop Ship
3 Calidus Grav Tanks.
Vs Nids
3 Stone Crusher Fex
1 Old one Eye
3 Venomthropes
6 Zoanthropes
1 Nuerothrope
1 Swarmlord
3 Tyrant Guard
1 Broodlord
20 GeneStealers
60 Termagaunts
I got turn one and Moved the Orion (Loaded with the Wardens and Preator) pretty close to the Fexs and Stealers.
My shooting killed the Tyrant Guard and the Swarmlord and pinging off a few Genestealers and Gaunts. Between his Psychic Phase and Shooting he drop the orion to half health. He failed his Test to double move the genestrealers so nothing he had could make a charge.
Turn 2 The Wardens and Vexilus piled out. The Horrored Orion took out 1 Zoanthrope. The Calidus killed the Venomthropes and 2 Dexes. The wardens in shooting and charge finished off the Genestealers the last dex and old one eye. His whole turn 2 killed 2 Wardens and put 2 more wounds on the Orion. (And saw the broodlord dead when it charged the Custodes.)
Turn 3. He conceded as All he had left was 2 Zoanthropes after my Turn.
Dear Lord what a blender the Wardens were. With the vex giving them +1 attack they were little murder machines fielding 40 attacks plus +10 miscordiea. Orion didn't do much but I really wasn't expecting it too. It was there to transport the super unit and it did its job. Grav-tanks continue to be my favorite unit.
COLD CASH wrote: So who thinks custodes with assassin's is now a thing, strangely enough it both boosts and counters custodes!
Ive seen quite a few lists run single or triple culexus prior so it only got better as we dont always want a culexus in every game.
The next question is, of course, which assassin adds value to Custodes. The Eversor does anti-horde, which is something to consider.
well the good thing is we dont have to specify before the game which assassin will turn up so we can choose according to our opponents. I feel the Vindicare and Culexus are the best ones to go. We really dont need more anti horde, at least not if you play bikes. Callidus could be nice if the opponent starts already low on CP. Culexus is a go to if the opponent is psyker heavy OR if you dont know which one to pick since the stratagem for fighting last is insanely good. Vindicare brings something to the table we lack of, which is character sniping.
Took the same all custodes list this time vs a Grey Knight/Admech mix
2 GM Dreadknights
Draigo
Apocathary
5 Paladins
Voldus
Cawl
Tech Priest
3 Units of rangers
Autocannon Dread
3 Onagers 2 with Icarus 1 with elimination
Well he seized and put 10 wounds on the Orion and 2 on a grav-tank. And my sorrows began. Lets just say he made more 5++ saves this game then all my saves rolls together. He was rolling very hot and I not. After 3 rounds of shooting I finally killed his onagers. His deep strike + gate failed most of their charges. only draigo made his 11" charge to get into a Grav tank but mostly whiffed on damage doing only 3.
My custodes counterchange was majorly underwhelming though not terrible. The warden charged a GMK, Voldus, and the Paladins in one go. Killed Voldus and the Paladin did a meager 3 wounds on the GM. The Vexulus and Captain charge draigo and only did about 4 wounds. He put 3 on the Vexulus. Hits turn he just managed to kill the Vexilus but draigo went down. Grav tanks took some damage and 2 got busted to 2nd bracket Orion was long gone. GM gated out of combat with the Wardens. my Shooting finished off his 2 remaining Dune Crawlers and a GM. I charge into cawl and a tech priest. I get cawl down to 1 hp but I fail all but 1 of my 4 3++ saves and my warlord gets killed by cawl and the tech priest servo arm. Cawl moves up an blows away one of my Wounded tanks with this Solar gun and charges another tank dealing some damage to it. The Dread fails its Psykic power for once and lacks line of sight to anything for a small mercy. The GM also fails a 6" charge. (We where both out of CP at this point) My remaining tanks fall back and blow Cawl away. He concedes and this point with my 7-8 strong wardens bearing down on his remaining GM. He was down to it, a unit of Rangers, the dread and a 1 health apothecary.
Honestly though I pulled out the win in the end I don't think I have ever been so frustrated by the shear amount of 5+ saves ever so much. We were rolling the same dice so wasn't like they were loaded or anything but man I couldn't hardly buy a save and he was making I swear at least 75% of his saves.
Wardens and Grav tanks really showed off their worth again. Orion sigh... Its supremely useful as insuring the turn 2 charge with the Custodes. Beyond that its not very useful other then drawing fire away from the Grav tanks. If its main guns I think were heavy 2 instead of 1 would be much better.
Same Doom bus list this time vs GSC. My first time playing against it.
His list was something like
Patriarch (Warlord, Mental Onslaught build
90 Guard infantry
8 Bullgryns
Primarus
Nexos
Commander Commander
3 Units of Jackals
3 Sets of Mortar Teams.
1 Unit of Aberrants
3 Units of Hybrids.
Few other character I didn't know and didn't do much.
My inexperience vs this army GREATLY showed. My fire from the first round focus on killing the 3 Jackals squads 1 Bullgryn and 1 mortar team. Unfortunately me not thinking about the mental onslaught bombo cost me the Orion Turn 1 along with 2 wardens that went down with the ship. He had helpfully advanced all of his units though trying to hold the 2 middle of the field objectives.
My round of turn 2 shooting focused mainly on the infantry squads screening the Patriarch and I got into close combat with it....Only to find out he could pass the wounds the Patriarch took on to units within 3in of it. Luckily I did ask that BEFORE I Took my swings so the custodes wardens blendered most of the infantry squads and the few that did attacks on the Patriarch got 4 wounds through. His turn 2 was incredibly unlucky for him. During his Psychic phase he only got off 1 power. Which smote the Warden for 2 wounds. His aberrants had come in under the perfect ambush strat. And were just over 4 inches away from my Grav tanks. He then proceeded to fail that charge with a CP reroll. My Vexilus and Dawn-eagle Captain killed his remaining Bullgryn. (One thing to note I complete forgot my Wardens were 4 BASE attacks this game and never gave them their Vex Magnifica bonus attacks.) After the fighting was done he was down to a smattering of depleted units and I still had 4 wardens left alive. I was majorly up in points as My list made it really hard to score secondaries.
After my turn 3 he conceded as his Patriarch and most of the characters with it were dead. I had lost 6 total Wardens and all my Grav tanks were full health My Bike Captain was at 3 Vex at full. His aberrants were majorly depleted by the tanks shooting and there was only 1 Bullgryn left. He had 2 mortar teams 4 Characters the Halved Squad of Aberrants (Which my tanks were a long way from now) and the 3 Squads Hybrids which he had deployed to 3 Table corners I think to try and get Recon points. He controlled no Objectives.
The wardens proved that they can deal with Hordes nicely (Least when they stay nice and clustered) and the Orion continues to not do much. I learned to be more careful with the Orion as losing it in one go to a single psykic power was kinda BS. (Vs this list I really Shouldn't have worried about keeping it in flyer mode.) Grav-tanks continue to astound me.
Grav tanks are gonna be good for a while too. Until the knights aren't being used as much and Custodes win a GT or a major they cant nerf them. I finally was able to purchase my 3 off of ebay. Really excited to use my new list when they all get here.
Your list sounds brutal! 3 grav tanks and a warden death ball!? Ouch!
Sounds like you've pretty well mulched everyone you've played, and with that list it doesn't really surprise me. You mentioned the wardens having 4 base attacks, +miser, +banner. You doing five attacks + miser each? That is horrible... What do you arm them with? Feed them CP and give them spears or do you go more reliable with the axes?
How do you do in objective based missions or do you literally rely on blasting the opponent off the board?
Hello all I'm getting into custodes but need advice. If you go mono custodes but don't want to use forgeworld do you have a hope in hell staying in and even winning games?
I'm thinking of a Battalion and an outrider the standard bike and bike captains. What else are good choices in a 2000 point game.
I imagine the Tanglefoot grenade stratagem will be useful when up against GSC, they are all about making those charges with big nasty units of Abberants and taking D6 inches off their result could be critical more often than not I'd guess.
Khardorstompy - Thanks for posting your analysis of the new vehicles. Keep it up! I'm interested to know how your list is able to deal with mass bodies so well. That GSC army included 90 Guard infantry and you barely even mentioned them as a problem.
I only ask because I tend to have massive issues with hordes unless I bring heaps of Bikes.
Spartacus wrote: I imagine the Tanglefoot grenade stratagem will be useful when up against GSC, they are all about making those charges with big nasty units of Abberants and taking D6 inches off their result could be critical more often than not I'd guess.
Khardorstompy - Thanks for posting your analysis of the new vehicles. Keep it up! I'm interested to know how your list is able to deal with mass bodies so well. That GSC army included 90 Guard infantry and you barely even mentioned them as a problem.
I only ask because I tend to have massive issues with hordes unless I bring heaps of Bikes.
Well Guard bodies weren't really much of an issue because since he didn't have really any other priority targets for my grave tanks durring round 2 they ended up takes most of their fire. And Hitting on 2s woundsing on 2s with no save with the tanks tends to clear them out fast with effectively 14 shots per tank. Then add in the custodes wardens with 20 shots then 12 from the biker captain then 30 from the Orion and yeah while I certainly don't have a huge volume of fire its surprisingly effective when everything is hitting on 2s.
And though I rag on the Orion for not doing terribly much.... It does (Usually) soak a tremendous amount of punishment.
Also Trying a new list that drops the Orion and 1 Grave Tank for a Grav-Carrier and 5 Aquilons. Puting the wardens in Deep Strike with the goal of the Grav Carrer surging up turn one. Turn 2 Spitting out the Vex and the Aquilons then Deep Striking the Wardens using the Vex Strat. So far I have only gone against a Primaris only list....that wasn't even running hell blasters or any antitank at all so that wasn't really much of a game.
A single rapid-firing bike kills 4.44 guardsmen without any re-rolls, and with 2+ saves and multiple wounds Custodes are very resistant to small arms...I’m not surprised the guardsmen aren’t a problem.
greyknight12 wrote: A single rapid-firing bike kills 4.44 guardsmen without any re-rolls, and with 2+ saves and multiple wounds Custodes are very resistant to small arms...I’m not surprised the guardsmen aren’t a problem.
Note people were talking about a specific list that didn't include bikes...
Please keep up with the conversation if your going to comment.
greyknight12 wrote: A single rapid-firing bike kills 4.44 guardsmen without any re-rolls, and with 2+ saves and multiple wounds Custodes are very resistant to small arms...I’m not surprised the guardsmen aren’t a problem.
Note people were talking about a specific list that didn't include bikes...
Please keep up with the conversation if your going to comment.
It actually does have a Jetbike, as a HQ, I believe. Be nice.
greyknight12 wrote: A single rapid-firing bike kills 4.44 guardsmen without any re-rolls, and with 2+ saves and multiple wounds Custodes are very resistant to small arms...I’m not surprised the guardsmen aren’t a problem.
Note people were talking about a specific list that didn't include bikes...
Please keep up with the conversation if your going to comment.
More a general comment about Custodes vs guardsmen in general, I just knew that stat off the top of my head. Point is that Custodes have the tools to deal with guardsmen (you can mulch them with grav tanks, as was said earlier) while being largely unaffected by them.
For those who have had some experience with the grav tanks and/telemon, are you babysitting your firebase with Trajain or do you think he would be helpful with the re-roll wounds of 1 aura?
List was
20 man unit of Guardians
10 man unit of Grotesques
3 Units of Wracks
Hameculos
Urien
Eldrad
2 Units of Rangers
1 Warlock on bike
9 man unit of Shinning Spear
10 man unit of Wind Riders
1 Avatar of Ynead
Okay he stole turn 1 from me. Basically moved everything up. Fired into the Grav-Carrier and took it to 9. My turn 1 shooting took his Windriders down to 1 model. (Technically he had is Haemculous out too far and I blew it away but I let him move it back some.) Aquilons popped out the the transport and proceeded to Smash all but 1 of the Shinning spears but lost 1 of their own. (The Heamonclus had that damn attack last artifact. And though I did put an Aquilon into attacking them he only did 2 damage.)
His turn turn two the Immune to morale SS and WR moved far to the back he dropped the Rangers to grab an Objective then blew the Aquilons away in Psychic/shooting. My shooting I Took out the not deep strike ranger squad. a unit of wracks and 14 of the Guardians. Deepstruck in the using the vex homer. Between the Captain and the Wardens they took out half the Grotesques. Lost I think 1 warden and a wound off the captain.
His turn 3 he didn't have much shooting left charged all his characters in. Killed the captain and another couple wardens. They wardens trying again to kill the Haemculous but did no damage. Killed another Grotesque or 2. His Ynari leader got left out of combat thought. My turn 3 I maneuvered my grave tanks to blow away the Rangers sitting in my backfield both the remain Shinning spear and Wind rider. Also put 6 wounds on the Avatar. The depleted Custodes took out the Warlock and another Grotesque. (Again only did 1 wound to the damn Haemculous) I charge the Vex to attempt to finish off the 3 heath Avatar but failed miserably doing only 1 damage. The Vex then got cut down by the Avatar.
Turn 4 he managed to finish of the Warden (Again he made a mistake with the Haemculous and left it in combat so he technically shouldn't have been able to shoot the Custodes but let him move the unit) My Turn 4 shooting finished off his Avatar at which point he conceded. Though he was up in point 15 to my 11 He was going to have a rough time gaining any more. I was in good position to force his units off objectives. He also had no way left damaging significantly my remaining tanks. He had 2 units of Wracks left, 6 Guardians, 2 Grotesques, Eldrad, Uriel, and the Hamcelous. And I still had 2 and 1/2 tanks left to fire and would have a fairly easy time of completing my remaining secondary Objectives while killing and holding more.
In hindsight I down know if I should have waited a turn on spiting out the Aquilons because they got gunned down in a single turn not doing really enough but if I had dropped them both in together might have gone better even if I probably would have lost the Grav-Carrier. (Though the Grav-carrier did do some decent damage this game.
Next game I think i will try dropping the Custodes Wardens to 9 putting both the units in deep-strike reserve and take out the Grav-Carrier to bring back my 3rd Grav-tank and add a Grav-attack. (Might even drop the Vex for a 2nd Grav-attack. But am unsure.)
I’m kinda surprised your opponent conceded that game. Sure, you might have been able to start picking up more points, but if all you had left was the 2 and a half tanks, I feel like he could have killed the one on half wounds and tried to stay on objectives and out of LoS.
I am pleasantly surprised as well in regards to the big blob of Wardens, though, I’d like to see what happens when they face a more “overall” meta competitive list.
Maybe he didn't quite get the meaning of the idiom: "Quit while you're ahead"
He did say he had '2.5 tanks left to fire', so perhaps a few other elements were still alive as well.
Edit: Wait, no. Everything else was killed off beforehand.
But yeah I would never concede while still ahead on VP, in the normal BRB mission formats anyway. You never know what might happen.
The aquillon termies really do a lot of damage but good lord they die quick to anything -2/3 AP considering how expensive they are.
I'd like like to get off a charge with 6 solorite gauntlets with a vexilla imperialis one day. 30 str10 -4ap d3 attacks hitting on 2 seems like it would hurt.
Kdash wrote: I’m kinda surprised your opponent conceded that game. Sure, you might have been able to start picking up more points, but if all you had left was the 2 and a half tanks, I feel like he could have killed the one on half wounds and tried to stay on objectives and out of LoS.
I am pleasantly surprised as well in regards to the big blob of Wardens, though, I’d like to see what happens when they face a more “overall” meta competitive list.
The issue was we were playing ITC rules and the score I gave of 15-11 was just what I had scored currently for the turn (Hold 1 kill 1.) Odds were I was going to be scoring kill more, bonus objective, Behind Enemy lines, and probably 1 of my 2 remaining mark for death with desent odds on hold more. His remaining Secondary Objectives were marked for Death (My Grav Carrier and a Grav-tank) and Behind Enemy lines which would be...unlikely for him to score with what he had left. With 2 turns left to go after that and no way to tie up my tanks to prevent them from shooting not a great place to be in.
I want to try a new army and I love elite armies with low models count.
Do you think is it possible to field a competitive army with only custodes, no FW models (unallowed in my LGS) and which not involved a lot of jetbikes ?
I want to try a new army and I love elite armies with low models count.
Do you think is it possible to field a competitive army with only custodes, no FW models (unallowed in my LGS) and which not involved a lot of jetbikes ?
Thank you guys !
Competitively? Imo no. But i do know of others who have had success with Foot custodes.
I want to try a new army and I love elite armies with low models count.
Do you think is it possible to field a competitive army with only custodes, no FW models (unallowed in my LGS) and which not involved a lot of jetbikes ?
Thank you guys !
Competitively? Imo no. But i do know of others who have had success with Foot custodes.
I feel foot Custodes need Forgeworld to be really competitive. Maybe ask your LGS for an exception (seriously, the Forgeworld Custodes rules were written by GW's team, not Forgeworld, there is no good reason to ban them in my opinion). Some players have found some luck with, what I believe to be, specifically tailoring their list to the tournament missions without Forgeworld, but there's not a lot of them I believe.
Yeah your gonna have a hard time without the FW models. The new FW beta rules are absolutely legal everywhere. I bet if you picked up just 1 or 2 at a time and put them on the table you could convince your opponent to play you.
Just make sure you have the rules printed out so no one can complain about not being able to see them.
If you'd like, you can PM me with details on what kinda list you want and i'll write you somthing up that should do well for local play (about how much CP and bodies you want in the list).
I want to try a new army and I love elite armies with low models count.
Do you think is it possible to field a competitive army with only custodes, no FW models (unallowed in my LGS) and which not involved a lot of jetbikes ?
Thank you guys !
Yes, there was a mono Custodes list at the LVO did placed well without using a lot of jetbikes.
Trajann
Bike Captain
3x3 Guard (2x shield I think)
3 Allarus
Vexilla
9? Wardens.
Vexillus Praetor in Allarus Terminator Armor: Vexilla Imperius
It is the most competitive pure custodes list not using FWatm. You use FGLTC on the wardens to deep strike them and they will have the allarus captain and imperialis banner to buff them. with trajann's ability to get some CP back you end up averaging 11cp per game (probably use his ability to recoup the 2 CP on Victor of the Blood games on your warlord during deployment).
10 wardens with reroll 1's will crush almost anything they charge, however your literally sticking all your guns in one basket here. It can kill a knight, which is something pure custodes had trouble with until the FW rules came out, and it has enough attacks in melee that its not worried about hoards, but its fairly slow, and if you get unlucky on your warlords saves your board control is pretty much nil.
Yeah other then ITC I don't like that list as a Very competative list. I still think at least 3 squads of bikes and shield captains are the best option
Tried to test the updated list tonight vs the same guy as last night. (You know the one who I let move his Haemculous twice last game) I move up my 3 Callidus to take shots on first turn at his hemlock wraithfighter. Measure everything out. (We were playing on a really terrible map to. I always get into arguments with people on this map) Anyway gets to shooting and the guy is like 2 of your grav tanks are out of range. I was like no I measured and show and he said I was measuring wrong. Your out like a 1/10th of an inch. I'm kinda shocked after what I let him do last game. And he like well ill be nice and let you have 1 be able to shoot. (Keep in mind both these tanks moved about 3" or less on my turn with a movement of 14"). So I just quit. Wasn't going to put up with that tonight especially after last night and in a regular game (Wasn't for league or tournament or anything)
I want to try a new army and I love elite armies with low models count.
Do you think is it possible to field a competitive army with only custodes, no FW models (unallowed in my LGS) and which not involved a lot of jetbikes ?
Thank you guys !
Competitively? Imo no. But i do know of others who have had success with Foot custodes.
I feel foot Custodes need Forgeworld to be really competitive. Maybe ask your LGS for an exception (seriously, the Forgeworld Custodes rules were written by GW's team, not Forgeworld, there is no good reason to ban them in my opinion). Some players have found some luck with, what I believe to be, specifically tailoring their list to the tournament missions without Forgeworld, but there's not a lot of them I believe.
The reason is that some shop managers are donkey-caves who decide that if every purchase isn't going in their ledger to stroke their numbers, then you don't get to use it.
Khadorstompy wrote: Tried to test the updated list tonight vs the same guy as last night. (You know the one who I let move his Haemculous twice last game) I move up my 3 Callidus to take shots on first turn at his hemlock wraithfighter. Measure everything out. (We were playing on a really terrible map to. I always get into arguments with people on this map) Anyway gets to shooting and the guy is like 2 of your grav tanks are out of range. I was like no I measured and show and he said I was measuring wrong. Your out like a 1/10th of an inch. I'm kinda shocked after what I let him do last game. And he like well ill be nice and let you have 1 be able to shoot. (Keep in mind both these tanks moved about 3" or less on my turn with a movement of 14"). So I just quit. Wasn't going to put up with that tonight especially after last night and in a regular game (Wasn't for league or tournament or anything)
Good on you. Players like that need to realize their bs has consequences. Sorry that your time was wasted as well but you did the right thing.
I want to try a new army and I love elite armies with low models count.
Do you think is it possible to field a competitive army with only custodes, no FW models (unallowed in my LGS) and which not involved a lot of jetbikes ?
Thank you guys !
Competitively? Imo no. But i do know of others who have had success with Foot custodes.
I feel foot Custodes need Forgeworld to be really competitive. Maybe ask your LGS for an exception (seriously, the Forgeworld Custodes rules were written by GW's team, not Forgeworld, there is no good reason to ban them in my opinion). Some players have found some luck with, what I believe to be, specifically tailoring their list to the tournament missions without Forgeworld, but there's not a lot of them I believe.
The reason is that some shop managers are donkey-caves who decide that if every purchase isn't going in their ledger to stroke their numbers, then you don't get to use it.
Aha, that would make more sense. Bad sales policy though: you need a fun atmosphere that makes people want to be there. Then they make incidental purchases.
I want to try a new army and I love elite armies with low models count.
Do you think is it possible to field a competitive army with only custodes, no FW models (unallowed in my LGS) and which not involved a lot of jetbikes ?
Thank you guys !
Competitively? Imo no. But i do know of others who have had success with Foot custodes.
I feel foot Custodes need Forgeworld to be really competitive. Maybe ask your LGS for an exception (seriously, the Forgeworld Custodes rules were written by GW's team, not Forgeworld, there is no good reason to ban them in my opinion). Some players have found some luck with, what I believe to be, specifically tailoring their list to the tournament missions without Forgeworld, but there's not a lot of them I believe.
The reason is that some shop managers are donkey-caves who decide that if every purchase isn't going in their ledger to stroke their numbers, then you don't get to use it.
Which makes no sense because they can't guarantee your army was bought in that store in the first place.
Khadorstompy wrote: Tried to test the updated list tonight vs the same guy as last night. (You know the one who I let move his Haemculous twice last game) I move up my 3 Callidus to take shots on first turn at his hemlock wraithfighter. Measure everything out. (We were playing on a really terrible map to. I always get into arguments with people on this map) Anyway gets to shooting and the guy is like 2 of your grav tanks are out of range. I was like no I measured and show and he said I was measuring wrong. Your out like a 1/10th of an inch. I'm kinda shocked after what I let him do last game. And he like well ill be nice and let you have 1 be able to shoot. (Keep in mind both these tanks moved about 3" or less on my turn with a movement of 14"). So I just quit. Wasn't going to put up with that tonight especially after last night and in a regular game (Wasn't for league or tournament or anything)
Good on you. Players like that need to realize their bs has consequences. Sorry that your time was wasted as well but you did the right thing.
Yeah. ESPECIALLY since it was just a regular game.
It's not worth your time to deal with that jackheel
1 Swarmlord
1 Hive-Tyrant Winged
1 Patriarch
1 unit of 3 Rippers
1 unit of 3 Venomthropes
2 units of 20 Genestealers
1 Primus
1 Abominant
1 Magus
1 unit of 10 Aberrants
1 Icon Ward
3 Units of 5 Hybrids
1 Biophagus
1 Calmavous
1 Kellermorph
Well this is the First Misson my Wardens I feel underpreformed.
I got turn 1 and proceeded to blow away the Swarmlord and the Venomthropes along with dinging up the Genestealers. His turn 1 he moved up the field took a few shots with the hive tyrant a Grav tank that didn't do much and that was really it.
My turn 2 Dropped in the Wardens and Aquilons. Shooting saw 1 unit of genestealers massacared the other heavily beat up and the Hive tyrant heavily wounded. Wardens charged and finished of the Tyrant. His turn 2 deepstruck in the Abominants and all his GS Cult characters. His Psychic Phase saw 9 wounds on a Grav tank via Mental onslaught. (I misplayed here and had the tank roll a 6 up FNP but forgot my vechicles dont get that. Would have been another 2-3 wounds I think.) Kellermorph did 6 damage to the Aquilons. And his charge phase his abominants and characters made all there charges (Excepting the Patriach) and wiped out the Wardens. The hybrids he charged into the Aquilons didn't do anything and got mulched in return.
My turn 3. Aquilons firepikes eliminated the Partiarch. The Dawneagle captain finished off the 2nd Genstealer groups and 2 of the Grav tanks and Telemon took out 8 of the 10 abominants. The last grav tank took out the magus and a charge from the Aquilons killed the Iconward and Kellermorph.
Down to 2 units of hybrids and Rippers that were holding table quarters. 2 Abominants and 3 characters. He decided to call it.
Next time I will be sure to save a cp for tanglefoot grenades probably as I vastly underestimated the amount of damage the abominants could dish out. Telemon did okay but not great. Grav Tanks continue to carry the list for the most part. Aquilons did good this game. I do like having 2 Threatening
Melee units to be able to drop in.
In spite of all their strengths with the new codex I expect Custodes to be a tough matchup for GSC. With the new beta units we obviously outshoot them. When the other half of the army turns up in knife fighting range, I don't imagine they'll deliver enough of a true knockout blow to avoid getting mulched by golden supermen, being so flimsy.
Nice when those big units of yours make those 9 inch charges on turn 2. I imagine it gets a bit more difficult if they don't. I never have any luck teleporting big melee units onto the field.
Edit: Now you're just spoiling us Khador Living in a place with no 40k and watching all these new rules and releases isn't so bad with your batreps to read.
I brought 2 units of Allarus 1 with firepike and 1 with Bolters
a unit of Vertus and my typical Shield captain 3 Grav tanks.
Not much to say on this one as it was a bit of a stomp. Only thing I lost with the vertus who drew fire for one turn. The dude kept his Onagers oddly out of LOS for most of the game and I took him apart piecemeal (Was a list with 3 Onagers, Cawl, Rangers, 6 dragoons, and 4 Robots and A unit of preist melee kind)
Next game was vs Pure Imp soup cheese.
I took
3 units of Vertus (1 5 and 2 3 man)
1 Trajen
1 SHield captain on dawneagle
3 Grav tanks
2 Wolf Lords
1 Relic tank
1 unit of Wulfen
1 Knight Castelean
2 Grey Hunters
1 Blood Claws
3 units of Infantry
2 Company Commanders
3 Basilisks
First game with Light Terrain in awhile (Gee I wonder why)
1st turn. I think I did 9 wounds to the big ugly even with 20 in movement there was no where to hide my guys to I just ran them up the board best I could. His turn 1 he kills 4 vertus and 1 Grav tank.
2nd turn My tanks only manage 5 more wounds on the Castelean (Though he is out of CP now) Kill a squad of Grey hunters and the 2 wolf lords. His turn 2 shooting deals 8 damage another grav tank and kills 3 more vertus. His charge with the Wolfven that outflankes kills another and they lose only 1.
3rd Turn My shooting does 1 damage to the Castlean (He made 6 out 7 4 up saves.... He wolves made 5 out 5 3 ups saves too.)
I charge my Captain into the castellean it gets 6 shots with the volcano cannon for the 3rd time this game. Makes 2 hits. I fail a save use a cp to reroll it. Still fail. He rolls 8 damage with the gun. I don't make enough FNPs Shield-captain dies and I call it quits.
Dice games gonna be dice games. Would have preferred more cover for a list like this. As I just got pounded at range and made exactly 1 successful charge all game. But it was good to test out the Vertus to see if they are worth it inmase. Answer is No.
Now that I have tried Various. I think the answer to the castellean would be to ignore it with the Grav-tanks and instead blow away its screens and instead let a doombus unit or DS unit take care of it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Next Bat rep Vs Thousand Sons this time.
Went back to the Doombus this time.
10 Wardens
1 Captain Dawn Eagle on Jetbike
1 Vexelus Preator with Imperilas
1 Orion Drop Ship
3 Calidus Grav Tanks.
He was fielding
Magnus
3 Deamon Princes
Arhim
Blue Scribes
Changeling
3 Units of Brimstone Horrors
1 unit of Scrab Terminators
1 Giant unit of Tzagors
Ill just start with this. This game My dice were hot and his were not.
Turn 1 I unloaded everything into magnus....and got him to 2 hp doombus moved up the field. His turn 1 he moved up with most and with his large amount of Psykic powers put Doombus low enough that a charge from a DP finished it off. Lost 2 Wardens in the Crash. He also did 9 damage to a Grav tank.
Turn 2. Shooting finished off magnus cleared out 2 units of horrors and a couple of Scarb termies. My Charges killed 1 DP put another to 1, killed Ahriman, and Scribes lost the vex though. His turn 2 He deep struck the Tz to hold 2 objectives and charged the wardens with some of them the Dp and the Scrab termies. In the fight phase I killed the Changeling the wounded Dp a Termis and did a few wounds to the healthy DP and killed 5 Tzagors, lost a warden and 3 health on the Shield captain.
Turn 3 Had the Shield captain break for his Deployment and killed the remaining horrors as everything else was in close combat. Finished off the DP and another handful of Tazgors. Lost I think 1 warden. His turn 3 did a wound to a warden and lost all but 3 of his Tzagors and also lost another Scrab Termi.
Though he was up in points he called it as the Taz wouldnt be able to hold the objectives next round the termis were going to get the full brunt of the Wardens and I would hold all objectives.
Wish i had a way to keep the Orion alive for at least 2 rounds but I don't really see how.
Definitely thing I need to work in an assassin some how.
So I'm thinking of starting a Custodes army (I've never played Imperium before so this is gonna be different). I've also heard that they are more of a soup thing which is fine considering I find Admech interesting and have a couple start collectings for them sitting around. So with that in mind is Admech/Custodes a decent combination and how would I go about building my Custodes?
Custodes work fine as soup but with rules coming out for their FW line they can hold their own as a mono faction army just fine. That being said if you wanted to soup, Ad Mech is a good complement as they have strong shooting and cheap troops to the Custodes strong melee and durable elite models. I would start with a cheap Ad Mech battalion and then invest in a jetbike shield captain or 2 and between 3-5 Vertus Praetor jetbikes. After that you can go pretty much any direction, Aquilon/Allarus terminators or a Contemptor Achillus to deep strike, Venatari to harass and fly around to midfield objectives, a Caladius or a Telemon for fire support to aid whatever Dunecrawlers or Kastelan Robots you bring, etc.
So Custodes seem to be able to plug the hole in their AT firepower with some of the forgeworld stuff (Caladius and Telemon it seems). I don't see the other forgeworld units adding anything they can't do already (except the Orion, but it's too expensive for me), just more ways of achieving the same thing? I'd be interested to hear if I've overlooked anything. Pyrithite Guard maybe, but they just seem such an excruciatingly expensive way of adding 12" melta.
Secondly, I have thought about souping up for CP purposes, but then it seems almost negligent to forego the AT options afforded by this. Is the general consensus that Guard is the way to go, over Mechanicus? A couple of Russes seem more effective than Dunecrawlers.
Ordana wrote: Admech is good but nothing can beat Guard in point effectiveness.
I dunno, Guard give you 5 more wounds per unit and Orders, but AdMech gives you 6++, Canticles and your CP battery is -1 to be Hit. It might be a better objective squatter.
Im sorry that im asking this but im looking for a 2000 pts list that I would start working towards.
I currently have a lot of GSC and need something that does not have 100 models
If possible, i would like to use Telemon and other FW models.
What would be a decent list, my local meta is small and does not really have knights.
Araablane wrote: Im sorry that im asking this but im looking for a 2000 pts list that I would start working towards.
I currently have a lot of GSC and need something that does not have 100 models
If possible, i would like to use Telemon and other FW models.
What would be a decent list, my local meta is small and does not really have knights.
Well you have a couple of options.
Going forgeworld heavy.
I find 1 telemon to be enough and prefer the Grav-tanks.
Aquilons are quite nice though Wardens are pretty similar. Mainly depends on what are are dealing with. Aquilons hit in melee with +2 S and additional -2 AP. (Which makes them far better vs units T5, T8+, and No invul) Vs hordes I think the Wardens come out a ahead slightly due to thier more attacks per point but the Aquiilons are no slouches and make up some of it with there superior shooting. However they BOTH get shot to pieces if left out in the open. A 4++ just doesn't cut it.
Araablane wrote: Im sorry that im asking this but im looking for a 2000 pts list that I would start working towards.
I currently have a lot of GSC and need something that does not have 100 models
If possible, i would like to use Telemon and other FW models.
What would be a decent list, my local meta is small and does not really have knights.
Well you have a couple of options.
Going forgeworld heavy.
I find 1 telemon to be enough and prefer the Grav-tanks.
Aquilons are quite nice though Wardens are pretty similar. Mainly depends on what are are dealing with. Aquilons hit in melee with +2 S and additional -2 AP. (Which makes them far better vs units T5, T8+, and No invul) Vs hordes I think the Wardens come out a ahead slightly due to thier more attacks per point but the Aquiilons are no slouches and make up some of it with there superior shooting. However they BOTH get shot to pieces if left out in the open. A 4++ just doesn't cut it.
With Gauntlets, Aquilons hit at X2 so S10 rather than S7. If you give them the flamers, I bet they do better against hordes too (while being more expensive).
Khadorstompy -- Why use the Vexilus with Imperius banner? Is it really worth it considering it gives you at best 11 more attacks (on 10 wardens + the Vexilus himself) while costing the price of almost 3 Wardens? Isn't better to add more bodies?
RenegadeKorps wrote: Khadorstompy -- Why use the Vexilus with Imperius banner? Is it really worth it considering it gives you at best 11 more attacks (on 10 wardens + the Vexilus himself) while costing the price of almost 3 Wardens? Isn't better to add more bodies?
I think it's a concentration of force thing and not a strict efficiency thing. If you are bringing a unit of 10 wardens to a part of the battlefield, you are increasing their local presence by 10 attacks. Those 10 additional attacks are also benefiting from any stratagems you use on them which should make whatever you're fighting super dead.
I tried this list against Eldar soup -1 or -2 to hit everything (grotesques, sky weavers and way too much mortal wounds against my vehicles, etc.) It went well! There were 5 objectives to control. He conceded turn 3 (I had first turn) knowing he'll have nothing left by the end of turn 4 except 1-2 flyers. He focused too much on the Caladius and the assassins. The latter did a good job sniping warlord and psykers. I feel like the callidus assassin would be good too. People use so many stratagems in the first battle round. I'm not sure Valoris is worth it. A dawneagle captain would have been more useful. I had only 4 command points but didn't know what to do with them except +1 to wound on the wardens against the grotesques. Our stratagems are of limited usefulness. Orion + 10 wardens is the same price as 10 dawneagle bikes. I'm not sure which option is better.
RenegadeKorps wrote: I tried this list against Eldar soup -1 or -2 to hit everything (grotesques, sky weavers and way too much mortal wounds against my vehicles, etc.)
It went well! There were 5 objectives to control. He conceded turn 3 (I had first turn) knowing he'll have nothing left by the end of turn 4 except 1-2 flyers.
He focused too much on the Caladius and the assassins. The latter did a good job sniping warlord and psykers. I feel like the callidus assassin would be good too. People use so many stratagems in the first battle round.
I'm not sure Valoris is worth it. A dawneagle captain would have been more useful.
I had only 4 command points but didn't know what to do with them except +1 to wound on the wardens against the grotesques. Our stratagems are of limited usefulness.
Orion + 10 wardens is the same price as 10 dawneagle bikes. I'm not sure which option is better.
Have 3 Calidus Grav tanks (and a Telemon) in the mail, my new list to try is going to be 2x Bike captains, 3x3 bikes, a vexilla (w/magnifica), and 3x calidus grav tanks. The outrider of bikes will stay, I’m just looking to experiment and refine the list for the next few months. I have 126 pts leftover, any recommendations? My leading idea right now is another vexilla to deepstrike via strat to keep the -1 going once my bikes get stuck in so I can have the other babysit my tanks with an axe. I’m not looking to add a loyal 32 or anything chaff-like; with ITC missions my bikes and fire support (right now IK or AM Tank commanders) are pretty good at denying kills and secondaries. I also don’t really need much in the way of CP since my units are small and my offense is pretty reliable; that said I’ve considered Trajan to replace a bike captain for re-roll ones to wound.
greyknight12 wrote: Have 3 Calidus Grav tanks (and a Telemon) in the mail, my new list to try is going to be 2x Bike captains, 3x3 bikes, a vexilla (w/magnifica), and 3x calidus grav tanks. The outrider of bikes will stay, I’m just looking to experiment and refine the list for the next few months. I have 126 pts leftover, any recommendations? My leading idea right now is another vexilla to deepstrike via strat to keep the -1 going once my bikes get stuck in so I can have the other babysit my tanks with an axe. I’m not looking to add a loyal 32 or anything chaff-like; with ITC missions my bikes and fire support (right now IK or AM Tank commanders) are pretty good at denying kills and secondaries. I also don’t really need much in the way of CP since my units are small and my offense is pretty reliable; that said I’ve considered Trajan to replace a bike captain for re-roll ones to wound.
My Caladius sqaudron is still in the mail also, so take what I say with a pinch of salt, but in all the batreps I have seen with mutiple grav tanks/Telemon for shooting the Custodes player always wins if the tanks/Telemon are focussed on. There isn't any army in the game that can kill an outrider of bikes with small arms fire before they hit and do a tonne of damage. People hate shooting at stuff with -1 to hit, so if you put your banner in the back to babysit them, theres no way anyone with a brain will shoot them with any big guns until all your foot boys and bikes are dead.
My Telemon with the cannons in the old beta rules was a horrifying firebase unit when accompanied by Valoris and his aura, Im planning to do the same with 2 tanks + Telemon. That is who I would recommend to babysit any Custodes shooty units. They can even advance with Valoris to stay in his arua when he moves up, with no hit penalty, which is awesome I think.
Also if you're using an assassin, it'll take you down to just 3 CP. So Valoris will be extra useful whenever you decide to pop off Stooping Dive or the Vexilla Teleport beacon strat.
I lost to a guard player who spammed valkyries and tempestus scions, but I just realized the Orion can control objectives since it's a LoW and not a Flyer ! (People confuse Flyers and Fly units.) I think I would have won!
What would be the best allied for objective controlling? Is there something at -2 to hit?
@Spartacus I was weighing the mind games factor as well, so right now I’m really liking the idea of 2 vexilla. One will be thrown into deepstrike, the other will cover everyone T1, then drop 2nd vexilla T2 to cover the bikes as they move up the rest of the way and charge. First Vexilla will hang back with the tanks. That said, the whole thing is kinda gimmicky so idk how it will work out...I’ll let you guys know.
greyknight12 wrote: @Spartacus I was weighing the mind games factor as well, so right now I’m really liking the idea of 2 vexilla. One will be thrown into deepstrike, the other will cover everyone T1, then drop 2nd vexilla T2 to cover the bikes as they move up the rest of the way and charge. First Vexilla will hang back with the tanks. That said, the whole thing is kinda gimmicky so idk how it will work out...I’ll let you guys know.
Seems good to me. I feel like the bike in particular need the -1 to hit to survive. It's crucial. The only problem is when they move first turn: they won't be in range if you want the vexilla to protect at the same time the backfield tanks, although you could ''plant the vexilla''.
You would have to deploy the Vexilla directly behind the bikes and advance it as the bikes move up 14", which should keep them in the aura as long as you roll at least a 2 for the advance (6" move, +d6 advance + 6" aura). The shooting lost by the Vexilla is pretty much negligible and if you want a shot to use the Vexilla Teleport Homer on turn 2 advancing to where you need to be is the best bet.
This list only has 4 CP, but I don't think that there are many vital stratagems apart from the Vexillus deep strike one, command re-rolling and Tanglefoot. Sure some others are nice to have, but not worth it when the goal is the play pure Custodes. Also Trajann can get d3 back when using one of the more expensive stratagems which could be useful in certain matchups. The Sagittarums seem good since they can stay backfield, hold objectives and still contribute to the fight, They do shoot really hard against infantry and they hit hard very hard too (4 S5 AP-2 D1 attacks each). I think they are underrated. The Aquilus are tough as nails and can deepstrike down on round to to kill a Knight (without buffs they average a dead Castellan in CC) or anything else basically. Praetors are Praetors and the entire list is very good at shooting infantry dead. The Telemon deletes a vehicle per turn. What do you think?
3 4-Man units of Skyweavers
4 Star Weavers
3 Troupes
3 Troupe Masters
1 Solitare
1 Shadoweaver
2 Death Jesters
Front-line assault Deployment. Put doombuss in center, Gravs behind ruins and Calidus in DS.
Roll for turn 1 I lose but he gives me first turn. Why I really don't know. He had deployed his characters too far foward... REALLY too far forward and I guess he forgot that my grav tanks could move so much. Anyway My turn 1 ended with 1 of his Death Jesters dead and the Solitare down to 2 health. 2 Skyweavers dead and 4 wounds off a Starweaver.
His turn 1 moving and shooting he getting up close on the orion with several units and moves the Solitare up some. His shooting does 10 wounds to the Orion and 6 to a Grav tank. He charges with the weakened unit of Skyweavers first...that gets blow away by the Orions overwatch then loses 2 more from the 2nd charge attempt. They don't do any wounds.
My turn 2 everyone Piles out. His poor positioning again lets a Grave tank take shots at his characters and puts 3 wounds on a Troupemaster and All saves made on a Solitare. The wounded grav tank takes out 2 more of the Skyweavers. Shooting from the Orion and last grave tank pop 2 of the Skyweavers. The Dread rushes deep into the backline finishes of the Troupe master with the Spear in shooting and flames 2 of the Disembarked Harlies. In the Charge step I realize I had completely forgotten about the Callidus and do a facepalm. Trajan finishes off 2 more skyweavers, the Aquilons kill a Troupe and and another Skyweaver. (Had the weaver encircled but forgot he could measure from the hull so he was about to place 4 guys.) The dread finished off the last Sky weaver.
His turn 2 the Solitare blitzed right at Trajan, The 2 remaining Skyweaver went for the Wounded Grav, 1 Troupe went for the Aquilon and the other for the Orion. The Orion and Grav tank lost a few more wounds and lost 2 Aquilons to Fusion Pistols. In the charge phase 1 Troupe and Troupemaster charge the Aquilons, the solitare Trajan and the Sky weaver the Grav tank. End result was a few wounds on the Grav tank A dead Troupe, Troupe master, and Solitare and Zlich damage to any of my infantry.
With score being 2 to 18 we decided to call it.
I felt this game my opponent had abysmal positioning combine with quite bad save rolls and terrible number of shots from the Haywire cannons to have me never really feel much pressure.
Orion actually felt good this game. Grav tanks did work but fell short of what I have come to expect out of them. Trajan and the Aquilons felt a bit weak. for their points they just seem a bit too vulnerable and lack maneuverability though there offensive power is 2nd to none. Trajan I need to find a better use for as I feel I am just not getting my value out of him. Dread feels good.
For the group:
How important is dedicated psychic defense these days? I remember back in the early days post-codex we looked at a couple different options but with the smite nerf it became largely unnecessary. With more codecies now and a new meta, is that assumption still correct?
Personally my gut still says we don’t need it, give your warlord and/or vexilla a deny ability and you cover the 1-2 spells that can actually hurt you. That said, if you’re already throwing in a loyal 32 with assassin option then having a culexus on standby is a solid option.
RenegadeKorps wrote: @Khadorstompy
What kind of list would you choose against the Castellan lists out there?
In pure custodes? The best options we have to deal with Castelleans are Aquilons, Achilles Dreads, and Vertus in CC. Getting them there can be tricky.
For ranged My much vaunted Grav-tanks sadly don't do so hot. Telemons are your best bet here but they are unlikely to win a ranged duel even with 3 of them and the Castellean will pop 1 of the on average where as they will only deal Roughly 10 in return.
There just isn't a magic bullet for the Castellean. All the things that can kill it in CC often have a hard time getting into CC with it due to its High movement and insane damage killing anything before they get to it.
Aquilions have by far the Easiest time of of killing it in melee and a deep strike squad of 6 should kill it in one go. However at best they will need a 9" charge and even with a reroll that is a roughly 52% chance.
Another mini Bat rep too here
Took a mixed list the time
IG: Battlion
2 CC 3 Infantry Squad (2 with mortars)
2 HWTs (Mortars
Had 4 Assassins (1 Culuxes, 2 Eversors, 1 Callidus, May have had 1 more not sure)
Any way Spearhead assault set-up we both set up out Main melee units across from each other and Vechicles flanking. I get turn 1. My Mortars take out 1 Mortar Squad of his and kills one more out of another squad.
Then I dump everything else into the Bullgryn. And frankly he rolled like gak. Result is of shooting is 7 Dead bullgryn my vertus and Captain make succesful charge into his 2 remaining Bullgryn, Priest and Culuxes. His Culuxes uses Soul Horror to let his guys go first....And I make every save. My attacks kill the final 2 bullgryn and he concedes before I finish the rest of my attacks on his characters. His objectives were Butchers bill and Gang busters and (Recon I think?) so I think he was pretty well screwed at that point. My objectives were Gang Busters which was already maxed. Headhunter, Thing weren't looking good for 2 of his characters, and Big Game hunters. Mission was nexus.
RenegadeKorps wrote: @Khadorstompy
What kind of list would you choose against the Castellan lists out there?
In pure custodes? The best options we have to deal with Castelleans are Aquilons, Achilles Dreads, and Vertus in CC. Getting them there can be tricky.
For ranged My much vaunted Grav-tanks sadly don't do so hot. Telemons are your best bet here but they are unlikely to win a ranged duel even with 3 of them and the Castellean will pop 1 of the on average where as they will only deal Roughly 10 in return.
There just isn't a magic bullet for the Castellean. All the things that can kill it in CC often have a hard time getting into CC with it due to its High movement and insane damage killing anything before they get to it.
Aquilions have by far the Easiest time of of killing it in melee and a deep strike squad of 6 should kill it in one go. However at best they will need a 9" charge and even with a reroll that is a roughly 52% chance.
Maybe the DS stratagem on the vexilla could help, but the problem, in this case, would be bringing the vexilla near the castellan.
Rynner wrote: Have anyone used the Pallas Grav Attack tanks? Are they worth 100 points?
If you consider them cheaper, slightly less durable assault cannon dreadnoughts with no melee but a ton more mobility then you would be right on the money. If that's the kind of unit you need in your army then they are perfect.
3 of them is only 300 points and they do quite well at ganging up on other units. If I was doing a fullout jetbike army i'd include them as they don't eat up much of your points and help you crack open transports for your bikes as well as provide that fun -2 to charge rule to support your bikes from getting swamped.
Yeah I dont have the models currently but I really want to run an all grav/flying Custode list. i think it would be really fun, efficient, and look amazing on the table top.
I'm bringing 3x Calidus's to Adepticon, I might pick up 3x Pallas while I'm here.
This is currently what im using, no point hiding it anymore as its already up on battlescribe for a RTT I attended. Works extremely well and I probably would have won the overall were it not for a simple mistake I made in my first round (ending in a draw).
With the change to ITC faction rankings, you could drop the guard battery and add in a second biker captain with no real issues. You loose some backfield campers, but get another highly durable character than can go solo quite well. You also loose 5 CP, but the list isnt super CP heavy depending on which assasin you take (and you can always get lucky and get CP back with the assasin as well). Keep your tanks close to your CG until you need them to jump forward and kill a demon prince or something. Gravitic backwash + tanglefoot grenade shuts down almost any charge your opponent can throw at you.
nordsturmking wrote: What do you guys think is the best ranged anti tank option in a soup list if can't take the Forgeworld stuff?
I am thinking about getting a Castellan but due to it most likely being nerfed in the upcoming big FAQ I don't want to waste my money.
Depends on what kind of tanks you’re trying to kill. Helverins are nice cause of their flat 3 damage and 72” range; I had a lot of success with a supreme command detachment of Leman Russ tank commanders (which replaced the knights in my list). I had battlecannons and plasma sponsons on mine and ran them as Tallarn so they could JSJ and keep up with my bikes without shooting penalties. I have also experimented with suicide drop plasma via scions.
I replaced the tank commanders with 3x Calidus tanks though, and I think the forgeworld options are just as good as anything you can get from another codex. BS2+ means almost all their shots hit and invul saves and a -1 to hit banner makes them fairly survivable. The only thing you can’t get from pure Custodes now is D6 damage at range, best we can do is flat 3.
nordsturmking wrote: What do you guys think is the best ranged anti tank option in a soup list if can't take the Forgeworld stuff?
I am thinking about getting a Castellan but due to it most likely being nerfed in the upcoming big FAQ I don't want to waste my money.
Depends on what kind of tanks you’re trying to kill. Helverins are nice cause of their flat 3 damage and 72” range; I had a lot of success with a supreme command detachment of Leman Russ tank commanders (which replaced the knights in my list). I had battlecannons and plasma sponsons on mine and ran them as Tallarn so they could JSJ and keep up with my bikes without shooting penalties. I have also experimented with suicide drop plasma via scions.
I replaced the tank commanders with 3x Calidus tanks though, and I think the forgeworld options are just as good as anything you can get from another codex. BS2+ means almost all their shots hit and invul saves and a -1 to hit banner makes them fairly survivable. The only thing you can’t get from pure Custodes now is D6 damage at range, best we can do is flat 3.
Thanks for your input. The tank commander look really good. How do you get the Helverins range up to 72" the normal range is 60? The problem is the FW Beta rules are not allowed at the tournament i want to attend.
nordsturmking wrote: What do you guys think is the best ranged anti tank option in a soup list if can't take the Forgeworld stuff?
I am thinking about getting a Castellan but due to it most likely being nerfed in the upcoming big FAQ I don't want to waste my money.
Depends on what kind of tanks you’re trying to kill. Helverins are nice cause of their flat 3 damage and 72” range; I had a lot of success with a supreme command detachment of Leman Russ tank commanders (which replaced the knights in my list). I had battlecannons and plasma sponsons on mine and ran them as Tallarn so they could JSJ and keep up with my bikes without shooting penalties. I have also experimented with suicide drop plasma via scions.
I replaced the tank commanders with 3x Calidus tanks though, and I think the forgeworld options are just as good as anything you can get from another codex. BS2+ means almost all their shots hit and invul saves and a -1 to hit banner makes them fairly survivable. The only thing you can’t get from pure Custodes now is D6 damage at range, best we can do is flat 3.
Thanks for your input. The tank commander look really good. How do you get the Helverins range up to 72" the normal range is 60? The problem is the FW Beta rules are not allowed at the tournament i want to attend.
If we're talking soup and no FW, the single best tank killer is the Castellan. How was this missed? Cawl's Wrath and the Volcano Lance can each destroy whatever you want that doesn't have an invulnerable.
I am 99% confident it's not getting a Nerf in this FAQ. They had many opportunities to nerf it and chose not to. They've also said they're mostly keeping points out of the FAQ's. You might see a tweak to relics or a warlord trait. That's about it I'd say.
Ordana wrote: I think I would actually take a Krast Crusader instead.
Speaking from experience you simply don't have the CP to effectively use the Castellan when playing Custodes, even with the loyal 32 added in.
Depends what you take. Footstodes are far less CP hungry than their Jetbike counterparts (assuming we aren't touching Allarus cause they're not very good in general). You can also run a Custodes Battalion + a Super-Heavy of 2 Armigers and a Castellan For about 1,650. That's 11 CP, 350 points to spare (for if you want even more CP or bells and whistles) and you don't have to spend 2 CP on upgrading the Castellan: he can just be your Warlord. Just shoulder the mantle if he dies.
In general, I also think it's cheaper to let him get shot at without Rotate for the first and second turn. With a 4++ he usually still won't die and it's cheaper to just Machine Spirit Resurgent him if he brackets.
Audustum wrote: I am 99% confident it's not getting a Nerf in this FAQ. They had many opportunities to nerf it and chose not to. They've also said they're mostly keeping points out of the FAQ's. You might see a tweak to relics or a warlord trait. That's about it I'd say.
Geoff on frontline’s podcast strongly implied that the Castellan would be getting a bit of a hike and knights would be capped at a 4++. That said, I agree that it’s offensive power is still phenomenal.
Audustum wrote: I am 99% confident it's not getting a Nerf in this FAQ. They had many opportunities to nerf it and chose not to. They've also said they're mostly keeping points out of the FAQ's. You might see a tweak to relics or a warlord trait. That's about it I'd say.
Geoff on frontline’s podcast strongly implied that the Castellan would be getting a bit of a hike and knights would be capped at a 4++. That said, I agree that it’s offensive power is still phenomenal.
Geoff also thought the Galatus would have like +5S on the sword so sometimes his info's a bit off, even when he's direct. That said, as long as it's only a marginal change you're right: still a amazing anti-tank unit.
nordsturmking wrote: what would you take in your custodes soup 32 AM or the Ad Mech?
Loyal 32 are generally considered more durable and flexible due to more bodies and orders, though if you’re taking knights the enginseers have some merit. AM detachments also open up a ton of useful options. However, super non-standard opinion:
Take a scion battalion armed up with plasma, or some tanks, or something that increases your firepower more than a bunch of lasguns. Sure it adds CP, but Custodes don’t need much. With ITC being commonplace, a loyal 32 is a real easy way to guarantee your opponent 5 “kill one” points that are a lot harder to get if you’re shooting at -1 to hit 3++ Custodian Guard.
nordsturmking wrote: what would you take in your custodes soup 32 AM or the Ad Mech?
Loyal 32 are generally considered more durable and flexible due to more bodies and orders, though if you’re taking knights the enginseers have some merit. AM detachments also open up a ton of useful options. However, super non-standard opinion:
Take a scion battalion armed up with plasma, or some tanks, or something that increases your firepower more than a bunch of lasguns. Sure it adds CP, but Custodes don’t need much. With ITC being commonplace, a loyal 32 is a real easy way to guarantee your opponent 5 “kill one” points that are a lot harder to get if you’re shooting at -1 to hit 3++ Custodian Guard.
I mean, everyone can ditch the loyal 32 and get an extra dawneagle captain and 5 Misericordia for the points.
If your using the new assassin strat though (and you probably should) you might need a few more CP. It also doesn't hurt to get victor of the blood games on any of your characters if you can afford it. 2 CP for rerolls all game is kinda good even if you only make it to turn 3.
nordsturmking wrote: what would you take in your custodes soup 32 AM or the Ad Mech?
Loyal 32 are generally considered more durable and flexible due to more bodies and orders, though if you’re taking knights the enginseers have some merit. AM detachments also open up a ton of useful options. However, super non-standard opinion:
Take a scion battalion armed up with plasma, or some tanks, or something that increases your firepower more than a bunch of lasguns. Sure it adds CP, but Custodes don’t need much. With ITC being commonplace, a loyal 32 is a real easy way to guarantee your opponent 5 “kill one” points that are a lot harder to get if you’re shooting at -1 to hit 3++ Custodian Guard.
Cannot agree with this more. An MSU Scion drop batallion is 300 points, but gives you 3x5 plasma shots (4 of which can generate additional shots on the drop thanks to their regimental tactics). You get the same amount of CP.
You'll still be giving up kill points, but your chances of deleting one to two big targets (or crippling a big-un) is well worth the trade off. They're a staple in most of my lists.
Venatari are good to take in an outrider detachment as they are cheaper than a squad of 3 bikes.
Their best use is character hunting/backfield harassment.
Basically if you wanna use a larger squad of bikes to take advantage of swooping dive and the strat that gives +1 attack for each guy in the squad that died, then you take 2 squads of 3 venatari and an 8-9 man dawneagle squad in an outrider.
The dawneagles will be your main force, charging up the field with a captain and on turns 2-3 your venatari can drop in behind buffer's/psychers and hopefully pop a cap in em.
Accelerator cannons all the way. 8 multi-damage shots at -3 AP is way better than 2 lascannon shots or 12 uncharged plasma shots.
EDIT: The Telemon does the blaze cannons better since it doubles the amount of anti-vehicle shots if you like the dual profile idea.
I am going to a big Tournament. I want to play custodes as my main faction and i really like the bikes.
I tried a list with 16 bikes but the custodes really need some anti-tank fire power.
FW-beta rules are not allowed.
And with Custodes my main concern are tau and knights.
The liste i now want to use is
3x3 bikes
1 x shield captain on bike
1 x Vexilus preator
1 x Castellan
and the loyal 32
You would have 9 CP actually with that list. Are you spending 4 on VotBG and some on the knight?
Honestly the castellan is all the anti-tank you'll ever need. You are a bit light on CP but its because you took the bikes.
If you really want to fuel your castellan properly, you would need a guard brigade, the castellan, and a Supreme command detachment with 2 bike captains (both with a 3++) and a termy captain.
Eihnlazer wrote: You would have 9 CP actually with that list. Are you spending 4 on VotBG and some on the knight?
Honestly the castellan is all the anti-tank you'll ever need. You are a bit light on CP but its because you took the bikes.
If you really want to fuel your castellan properly, you would need a guard brigade, the castellan, and a Supreme command detachment with 2 bike captains (both with a 3++) and a termy captain.
Wont even need a vexilla at that point.
Very rare to see that many bikes and a castellan.
Rare but MUCH more optimal if you're not taking a whole Guard Brigade. There's nothing stopping you from winning an event with his list.
Eihnlazer wrote: You would have 9 CP actually with that list. Are you spending 4 on VotBG and some on the knight?
Honestly the castellan is all the anti-tank you'll ever need. You are a bit light on CP but its because you took the bikes.
If you really want to fuel your castellan properly, you would need a guard brigade, the castellan, and a Supreme command detachment with 2 bike captains (both with a 3++) and a termy captain.
Wont even need a vexilla at that point.
Very rare to see that many bikes and a castellan.
Thanks for the feedback I will spent 2 CP on the Castellan giving him iron bulwak and the relic plasma gun.
1 CP for the Assasin
1CP the auric aquils
I might be able to get some CP during the game with a Vindicare. And with the company commander i will get a few more.
Hopefully the Castellan will not be nerfed into the ground and still be playable.
nordsturmking wrote: I am going to a big Tournament. I want to play custodes as my main faction and i really like the bikes.
I tried a list with 16 bikes but the custodes really need some anti-tank fire power.
FW-beta rules are not allowed.
And with Custodes my main concern are tau and knights.
The liste i now want to use is
3x3 bikes
1 x shield captain on bike
1 x Vexilus preator
1 x Castellan
and the loyal 32
I would have 5 CP at the start of the game
What do you think?
I've played basically this exact same list for a while. Instead of an assassin I took 9 Mortars tho cause the new assassins rules weren't a thing yet.
I would drop the relic bike as a standard thing to take. You want a guaranteed 6 CP so you can get 2 uses of Order of Companions/Rotate Ion Shield.
nordsturmking wrote: I am going to a big Tournament. I want to play custodes as my main faction and i really like the bikes.
I tried a list with 16 bikes but the custodes really need some anti-tank fire power.
FW-beta rules are not allowed.
And with Custodes my main concern are tau and knights.
The liste i now want to use is
3x3 bikes
1 x shield captain on bike
1 x Vexilus preator
1 x Castellan
and the loyal 32
I would have 5 CP at the start of the game
What do you think?
I've played basically this exact same list for a while. Instead of an assassin I took 9 Mortars tho cause the new assassins rules weren't a thing yet.
I would drop the relic bike as a standard thing to take. You want a guaranteed 6 CP so you can get 2 uses of Order of Companions/Rotate Ion Shield.
This is my experience, but I find it's usually better to scrap Rotate entirely and just lean on Machine Spirit Resurgent. Few things kill a 4++ Knight in 1 round and you would have to Machine Spirit Resurgent 3 times to equal the cost of a single Rotate. The 3 turns it gives him generally lets him do whatever I need him to do before he explodes and, if he does it in less than 3 uses of Resurgent, I get a spare CP or two for re-rolls.
I used to think that. Then I lost my Castellan 2 games in a row in turn 1. First to an Assault cannon Contemptor + Stom cannon Leviathan and then to a Krast Crusader.
Ordana wrote: I used to think that. Then I lost my Castellan 2 games in a row in turn 1. First to an Assault cannon Contemptor + Stom cannon Leviathan and then to a Krast Crusader.
Its not worth the risk to losing it.
Maybe do the math on it. Doesn't sound like either should be particularly likely to do that. That krast crusade(presumably krast for the relic to boost damage vs titanic models) you average _10_ wounds. You need 28 wounds. Care to guess how often you are going to do that?
Preparing for worst is sometimes good but there's limit there. How do you dare to advance forward if you are thinking about worst possible results? Do you dare to lead your unit of custodians within 17" of 30 grots fearing they will do the once in a blue moon thing and kill half your squad in shooting?-)
karandrasss wrote: Cool! Gonna share the results of your number crunching?
When I get 20-30 minutes to write it all in a Dakka post, sure! We've had a lot going on in the neighborhood recently though. Town hall meetings, e.t.c., so there's not a lot of free time. I basically snipe out these one-liners at work.
I use 3 of em myself with trajann. Without him they are at the borderline between good and too easy to kill. With him they are amazing.
As a side note for people that play ultramarines, you could get the same buff trajann gives with RG. So taking an ultramarines SC detachment is an option for a list as well.
Eihnlazer wrote: I use 3 of em myself with trajann. Without him they are at the borderline between good and too easy to kill. With him they are amazing.
As a side note for people that play ultramarines, you could get the same buff trajann gives with RG. So taking an ultramarines SC detachment is an option for a list as well.
You actually might want to go mixed. Booby G in the Superheavy slot, with at least one Black Templar unit in there for access to their 4+ Deny strat.
Castellan (standard meta loadout) = 604 points + 2 CP
The Caladius squad averages 18.16 wounds to a 5++ Knight, 13.60 to a 4++ and 9.07 to a 3++. Standard deviation is 5.36/4.90/4.20 respectively. They kill the Castellan in 2/3/3 rounds of shooting (and that against the 4++ it's reaaaaaally close to being 2 rounds). This is just the main gun. We will assume the smaller gun is out of range.
In return, the Castellan averages (Volcano/Cawl/Siegbreaker/Shieldbreaker) 1.94/4.67/1.99/1.17 with a deviation of 2.09/3.67/2.08/1.93 and the chance of doing 0 damage of 37%/21%/35%/67%. Total average damage is 9.77, meaning it takes 2 rounds of shooting for the Castellan to destroy 1 Caladius on average. If the Castellan spends 3 CP for re-rolls then it's (approximates, my math is hazier here): 3.10/7.26/2.80/2.00 average damage per weapon with a standard deviation of 2.10/3.90/2.30/1.60 and 14%/6%/21%/54% to do 0 damage. Total average damage is 15.16, meaning it defeats 1 Caladius per turn.
Now to note the soft factors: the Caladius can Fly while the Castellan can Fall Back over Infantry and Hordes (but not ignore terrain). The Caladius are hobbed a bit by needing to stay near their characters, the Castellan is not. The Caladius technically outrange the Castellan everywhere except the volcano lance (72"/74" effective range for the Caladius vs. like 58" for the Castellan) so on a big enough table the Caladius could kite him if they ditch their characters. The Caladius give -2 to enemy chargers (and have two good melee characters to heroically intervene) the Castellan has Stomp attacks. Both can Fall Back and shoot.
They're basically both very comparable, but the Caladius squad is higher on points while the Castellan is higher on CP (needing 2 at start and 3+ per turn to function). Due to their speed and Fly, the Caladius are also good at breaking off near the end of the match to grab objectives.
Castellan (standard meta loadout) = 604 points + 2 CP
The Caladius squad averages 18.16 wounds to a 5++ Knight, 13.60 to a 4++ and 9.07 to a 3++. Standard deviation is 5.36/4.90/4.20 respectively. They kill the Castellan in 2/3/3 rounds of shooting (and that against the 4++ it's reaaaaaally close to being 2 rounds). This is just the main gun. We will assume the smaller gun is out of range.
In return, the Castellan averages (Volcano/Cawl/Siegbreaker/Shieldbreaker) 1.94/4.67/1.99/1.17 with a deviation of 2.09/3.67/2.08/1.93 and the chance of doing 0 damage of 37%/21%/35%/67%. Total average damage is 9.77, meaning it takes 2 rounds of shooting for the Castellan to destroy 1 Caladius on average. If the Castellan spends 3 CP for re-rolls then it's (approximates, my math is hazier here): 3.10/7.26/2.80/2.00 average damage per weapon with a standard deviation of 2.10/3.90/2.30/1.60 and 14%/6%/21%/54% to do 0 damage. Total average damage is 15.16, meaning it defeats 1 Caladius per turn.
Now to note the soft factors: the Caladius can Fly while the Castellan can Fall Back over Infantry and Hordes (but not ignore terrain). The Caladius are hobbed a bit by needing to stay near their characters, the Castellan is not. The Caladius technically outrange the Castellan everywhere except the volcano lance (72"/74" effective range for the Caladius vs. like 58" for the Castellan) so on a big enough table the Caladius could kite him if they ditch their characters. The Caladius give -2 to enemy chargers (and have two good melee characters to heroically intervene) the Castellan has Stomp attacks. Both can Fall Back and shoot.
They're basically both very comparable, but the Caladius squad is higher on points while the Castellan is higher on CP (needing 2 at start and 3+ per turn to function). Due to their speed and Fly, the Caladius are also good at breaking off near the end of the match to grab objectives.
This comparison is a bit off. If we want sort of equal points on both sides the Castellan should at least have a CP farm with it so 604 +180 784 points vs 815 points for Trajann and 3 Caladius. This gives the Castellan the 3 CP needed for the rerolls or 3++.
If you take the 3++ the Caladius deals only 9 dmg to the Castellan.
If you take the rerolls the Volcano lance and plasma decimator alone will deal 16.72 damage to a Caladius without a vexilla.
Either way the Castellan wins the shootout.
And CPs spend a much more effective on the Castellan BC you spent them on one 604p model not on 3 210p model's. And when Castellan has taken 27 damage you can spent 1 CP and shoot as if it had not lost any wounds...
Castellan (standard meta loadout) = 604 points + 2 CP
The Caladius squad averages 18.16 wounds to a 5++ Knight, 13.60 to a 4++ and 9.07 to a 3++. Standard deviation is 5.36/4.90/4.20 respectively. They kill the Castellan in 2/3/3 rounds of shooting (and that against the 4++ it's reaaaaaally close to being 2 rounds). This is just the main gun. We will assume the smaller gun is out of range.
In return, the Castellan averages (Volcano/Cawl/Siegbreaker/Shieldbreaker) 1.94/4.67/1.99/1.17 with a deviation of 2.09/3.67/2.08/1.93 and the chance of doing 0 damage of 37%/21%/35%/67%. Total average damage is 9.77, meaning it takes 2 rounds of shooting for the Castellan to destroy 1 Caladius on average. If the Castellan spends 3 CP for re-rolls then it's (approximates, my math is hazier here): 3.10/7.26/2.80/2.00 average damage per weapon with a standard deviation of 2.10/3.90/2.30/1.60 and 14%/6%/21%/54% to do 0 damage. Total average damage is 15.16, meaning it defeats 1 Caladius per turn.
Now to note the soft factors: the Caladius can Fly while the Castellan can Fall Back over Infantry and Hordes (but not ignore terrain). The Caladius are hobbed a bit by needing to stay near their characters, the Castellan is not. The Caladius technically outrange the Castellan everywhere except the volcano lance (72"/74" effective range for the Caladius vs. like 58" for the Castellan) so on a big enough table the Caladius could kite him if they ditch their characters. The Caladius give -2 to enemy chargers (and have two good melee characters to heroically intervene) the Castellan has Stomp attacks. Both can Fall Back and shoot.
They're basically both very comparable, but the Caladius squad is higher on points while the Castellan is higher on CP (needing 2 at start and 3+ per turn to function). Due to their speed and Fly, the Caladius are also good at breaking off near the end of the match to grab objectives.
This comparison is a bit off. If we want sort of equal points on both sides the Castellan should at least have a CP farm with it so 604 +180 784 points vs 815 points for Trajann and 3 Caladius. This gives the Castellan the 3 CP needed for the rerolls or 3++.
If you take the 3++ the Caladius deals only 9 dmg to the Castellan.
If you take the rerolls the Volcano lance and plasma decimator alone will deal 16.72 damage to a Caladius without a vexilla.
Either way the Castellan wins the shootout.
And CPs spend a much more effective on the Castellan BC you spent them on one 604p model not on 3 210p model's. And when Castellan has taken 27 damage you can spent 1 CP and shoot as if it had not lost any wounds...
Are you sure you're using your math right, because I checked this twice and it's more than a bit off. A Castellan is only tagging a Caladius between .9 and 1.5 times (depending if Companions was used) with the Volcano. Cawl's Wrath (not the Decimator, it sucks) averages 3-7 damage (again, depending on Companions). In either case, you're not getting to 18. Are you using the right profile for the Caladius?
You should always assume the -1 Flag is present (and maybe that's your math problem) for the Custodes because that's a component of what we were discussing: the loadout Geoff took to Broadside Bash (basically a Custodes castle).
You should NOT factor in the cost of the CP battery to the Castellan because you take it for lots of reasons, not just as his jet fuel.
The Castallen DOESN'T get points for more efficient spending of CP because part of the point of the Caladius loadout is to not have to spend CP on it at all.
You don't get point efficient CP thingie maybe but you do have to factor in stratagems in use for the castellan. Plus obviously you need to factor in something else than castellan. 900 pts winning over 600 pts isn't that much of a surprise. If 50% more points dedicated AT battery wouldn't win over big vehicle things would be odd...
But yeah castellan will have support, he will have CP's for stratagems and those stratagems will boost that quite a lot. Those stratagems should be factored in as well.
tneva82 wrote: You don't get point efficient CP thingie maybe but you do have to factor in stratagems in use for the castellan. Plus obviously you need to factor in something else than castellan. 900 pts winning over 600 pts isn't that much of a surprise. If 50% more points dedicated AT battery wouldn't win over big vehicle things would be odd...
But yeah castellan will have support, he will have CP's for stratagems and those stratagems will boost that quite a lot. Those stratagems should be factored in as well.
I DID factor in the main strategem for him (Order of Companions) and the cost of it. Did no one actually read the post?
And the point of it wasn't that one 'wins out', the point was that they are about comparable. So it's a trade-off as to whether you want to be more CP dependent or more point dependent in bringing your AT. Thus, what Geoff brought to the broadside bash is competitive which was my original underlying point if you check the post prior to that one. He used custodes to make a separate but just as effective AT shooting squad by trading slightly more points for slightly less CP dependance.
Hi guys i am still contemplating about my list. Since FW stuff is now allowed i changed my list quite a bit. I have two lists.
The only differnce between the two is one has 2 battalions and 13 CP and the other one has Battalion and 8 CP. so the first has 3x3 Guardians to get the extra 5 CP and the other one has a telemon and only 1x3 Guardians.
Which one would take to a GT?
patrol with:
2 Biker Captains
1x3 Guardians with S&S
1 Vexillus Preator with Vexilla Magnifica
1 Caladius Grav-tank withTwin Illiastus Accelerator
1 Telemon with 2 x Arachnus Storm Cannon 1 Assassin
battalion with:
loyal 32 with warlord and Primaris Psyker
super aux with:
Castellan with 4++, cawls wrath, raven
this gives me 5 CP at the start of the game. The company commander and assassin should generate a few more.
I have only one Telemon and 1 Grav tank.
My previous list had 3x3 bikes because FW was not allowed. but now it is so i thought i'd give a go. The Telemon shoots hordes almost as good as 3 bikes and costs only 2 points more. But it is effective from turn 1 and can shoot everything.
FAQ is out...Nothing really changed for us (2 stratagems) in the codex, biggest change in the BRBFAQ is Fly units can charge over screens again and custodes are definitely not getting beta bolters. For the Imperium players, Castellans are 100 pts more expensive, max invul on a knight is 4++ and the assassin strat costs 2 CP now.
Played in Battle for LA GT this past weekend, summary incoming. Bottom line, every Custodes list had 3 heavy supports with some mix of Calidus grav tanks and Telemon dreads. The "Custodes Castle" is now a thing we can say, it consists of shooty heavy supports with a character for re-rolls and a vexilla magnifica bunched up. Also, the black armor custodes hipsters have become mainstream...everyone's doing it.
I don't own Custodes at this point.
They are beautiful models. I've been sorely tempted to pick them up.
My favorite model so far has gotta be the Alarus Terminators...any way to get them to work? I'm thinking deep striking with the Vexilla Magnifica to keep them alive after landing , paired with that forgeworld tank, or a telemon.
I don't own Custodes at this point.
They are beautiful models. I've been sorely tempted to pick them up.
My favorite model so far has gotta be the Alarus Terminators...any way to get them to work? I'm thinking deep striking with the Vexilla Magnifica to keep them alive after landing , paired with that forgeworld tank, or a telemon.
Any tips for building a list around Alarus?
Honestly? They're not great and they're outshone in nearly every way by their Forgeworld cousins the Aquillon Terminators:
If you're determined to stick with Allarus though, it's probably best to use them similar to how Erik Trock used Wardens at LVO (he also had 4 Allarus in there).
He basically took a big single unit of them, plopped it in the center of the board and used it to zone enemies.
.
Nowadays, I might pair them with some of Forgeworlds heavy fire support (Telemon/Caladius/Pallas). This was designed for ITC though and I'm not sure how well it would work on other mission types.
The field at Battle for LA GT was pretty stacked, there were a bunch of well-known players there and I had a blast. I took an outrider+spearhead+1 CP for assassin: 2 bike captains, 3x3 bikes, vexilla magnifica, and 3x Calidus grav-tanks with accelerator cannons; misericordia on everything to fill points. 1998 pts, 3 CP after spending one for the extra 3++ on a bike captain (warlord always had it) and assassin strat. ITC missions, fairly standard terrain.
Spoiler:
First game was against a Deathwatch list, he had a smattering of deathwatch characters, 4 vet squads with a variety of special weapons and 2 intercessor squads plus a Knight Errant and 2 helverins. Based in how deployment was going I opted to spend a CP to put a bike squad in reserve, and when he seized (I originally had first turn) I opted for prepared positions so I played the game without CP. He killed nothing first turn, I shot down a helverin and that was it. The second turn he made almost all his saves while I made almost none of mine…armor or invul. It put a decent amount of hurt on my list; he finished a bike squad and killed a tank. I dropped all my reserves in and hurricane bolters+charges went to work, the callidus assassin did nothing but provide a giant distraction. My remaining tanks thinned down the intercessors and vets, I had shot at the big knight once turn one to burn CP but ignored it until turn 3. From turn 3 on my tanks+vexilla played run away and shoot with the knight, I charged the remaining helverin with my deepstruck bikes who went on to spear and bolter the remaining vets in the vicinity. My other bikes fly around and grabbed objectives. He was pretty spread out so it took some time to hunt everyone down, finished by tabling on turn 6.
Game 2 I played Brandon Grant’s Catachan list, in one of the best games I’ve ever had. He had 3 tank commanders (plasma), basilisk, wyvern, chimeras, a ton of infantry+straken, and 10 bullgryn. Vanguard deployment meant I castled in a corner, and he took first turn w/first full deployment (ITC mission 2). He killed nothing turn one but moved his infantry forward to claim the center objective, my return salvo from the grav tanks took one commander down to 5 wounds and sniped his basilisk which was on his home objective, giving me kill more and we both held one. Turn 2 he spread out more, moved his wyvern to claim his home objective and brought his other tank commanders out to play (they had been behind LOS-blocking). The bullgryns just kept foot slogging towards me and he finished off my tank and put soume wounds on another. I elected to keep my deepstrike bikes in reserve, as well as my vindicare since there wasn’t anything for them to do. I shot down his wounded commander tank, wounded another, and killed a guard squad with bolters. 3-3 on primaries that turn, and every turn after that except the last. Turn 3 he failed to kill my wounded tank, and I finished off his commander and seriously hurt his remaining one. I brought my bikes in from reserve into my own deployment zone, and the vindicare dropped in to try and assault some guard camped in a building. I think I also killed a chimera this turn. Turn 4 the wounded tank died, and so did his commander. My bikes had moved up along the table edge to his deployment zone, he killed some of them with heavy flamers from the chimeras and I bolstered+assaulted them back. I was also spreading out away from the bullgryns to avoid assaults. Turn 5 was very similar, my vindicare was beat down by a now combined squad of catachan and my bikes killed some back. At some point over these turns he had killed a full bike squad and taken one squad down to a single wound; his tanks had shifted their fire to the bikes before they died. Top of turn 6 he says “ok, let’s talk this out a bit”. We totaled up points and to my utter shock, if we did what we could easily do/expected, I would win 23-22. We had plenty of time in the round, so he took his time and figured his only play was to kill the one wound bike with his wyvern. He had enough range for a full move and shoot; he rolled high for his number of shots but poorly to hit/wound, I had 3 2+ saves to make with 0 CP. I failed one. That gave him another marked for death unit and kill one. That swing meant the the game was basically over unless I did something extreme so I needed to crack open a chimera and kill the guards inside. I did not. I assaulted his bullgryns for good measure to try and get a few kills for reaper but did nothing. He won, 26-19 with me having failed to do anything on my last turn. It was such a good game and he was such a good opponent that I didn’t even feel bad that I was one 2+ save away from potentially winning.
Next game was against Pablo (Peteypab from FLG’s podcast). He brought essentially an army of sniper scouts, some eliminators, 4 assassins and a castellan. Hammer and anvil, so I outranged him from turn one and picked off snipers or random dudes for kill more every turn. Eventually I opened up on the castellan and killed it turn 4 I think. Not a lot interesting here, his assassins died when they fought the bikes and sniper rifles aren’t that great against 2+ armor. He also didn’t have Cawl’s wrath on the castellan and targeted the bikes with the decimator (no overcharge cause of the -1 to hit from vexilla). I deepstruck my bikes again and they died this time (turn 3). He conceded top of 5; at this point I was set up for kill more+hold more every turn with two tanks still alive.
Game 4 was against Ben Jurek’s Freebooterz; probably one of the most unusual ork lists out there but I quickly saw how he won a GT with it. Basically it shoots a lot. A lot. I got first turn, but didn’t prioritize the right things or kill enough of them. There was simply too much MSU that each hit too hard for me to win the attrition battle (not to mention that tractor kannon induced explosions in a cluster of custodes really, really hurt). I made a bit of a game of it and got 22 points, but lost. My turn 3/4/5 my shield captains managed to make a ton of 3++ saves, FNP, and kill enough to get me some points. I was tabled bottom of 5, definitely learned the most from this game.
Last game was against chaos; he had some horrors, oblits, deredo+scorpios, havocs, cultists, and nurgle beasts+nurglings. He had first turn but killed nothing, I killed his deredo in return, and while he did flatten a tank once his oblits came in I didn’t take a lot of damage from turn 2 on. He eventually managed to kill another tank, but I systematically killed his havocs, mutilators, a dark apostle, and his scorpios; especially since he failed almost every charge out of deepstrike his turn 2 while I made the one that mattered (deepstrike bikes into scorpios). I eventually started working on shooting his oblits with my remaining tank hanging out of range but he conceded after turn 4.
I finished 12th of 49 with the top “pure” custodes list (I had an assassin), Geoff Robinson won the whole thing with a Custodes spearhead+Castellan+admech battalion. Big lesson for me was assassin selection; I definitely could have made some better picks (eversor would have been better against Grant and callidus instead of vindicare for Jurek) and recognizing that they are one of the few units in my list that can penetrate the ITC “magic box”. As I mentioned before every custodes list had some variant of 3 FW heavy supports with vexilla and buffing character; and they perform extremely well. The fact that they can be -1 to hit and barely degrade is huge. I’ll probably try swapping out a shield captain and the misericordias for trajan in the next list iteration. Great event and some great games!
1 Telemon Drednaught with Caestus and I want to say the autocannon from the appearance
I think the only thing I need is a few more Custodians to fill out a battalion. Any advice how to use what I have?
Right now? Put it all in a battalion. You do need 9 Guardians to fill out your 3x3 troop requirement (so 4 more or 1 more Vertus Praetor to make an Outrider). Put the Vexilla Magnifica on the Vexillus Praetor for -1 to Hit, start your Jetbikes near him. Deep Strike the Allarus (and spend 1 CP to put Trajann with them). The auto-cannon loadout (called an Arachnus Storm Cannon) is the best loadout for the Telemon. If you can somehow change his Caestus to be a second one of those, he can stay in the backfield by the Vexilla Magnifica, which affects him too, and lay down some heavy fire support.
_SeeD_ wrote: If I equip a Vexilus Praetor with a stormshield and misericordia, can I make his attacks with the misericordia or not?
Nope, you can't. It specifies specifically on the Misericordia that if the model is equipped with a storm shield you don't get to have an extra attack with it.
Telemon is very good, but your not gonna be using 3 of them.
3 caladius grav tanks are great for their price point.
The extra durability on the Telemon only really extends to Strength 8 weaponry. The extra armor save only helps againgst small arms fire (as any high AP weapons are going up againgst the invun anyway.
The big loss is the mobility. No 14" fly limits him a lot compared to the tanks. They can get on top of buildings (for better LOS and potentially cover). They can jet across the table (to run from melee threats or get on an objective at the end of the game). He also wont be popping over screens and sniping characters out like the tanks can.
Are the units on board at the start of turn 1? If yes it can be used. If they are put on deep strike during deployment then no. Outside summon NOTHING in the game that isn't on board at the start of T1 or in transport comes from reserves T1.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Can someone please correct me? I thought I read way back that FGLTC can be triggered turn 1, outside of the DS rules for turn 1 now in effect?
Is that still the case? You can do FGLTC on turn 1?
Why? They go into reserve during deployment, they are never on the table so they follow all the normal rules.
Previously you could DS into your own deployment zone. That is no longer allowed.
Eihnlazer wrote: Telemon is very good, but your not gonna be using 3 of them.
3 caladius grav tanks are great for their price point.
The extra durability on the Telemon only really extends to Strength 8 weaponry. The extra armor save only helps againgst small arms fire (as any high AP weapons are going up againgst the invun anyway.
The big loss is the mobility. No 14" fly limits him a lot compared to the tanks. They can get on top of buildings (for better LOS and potentially cover). They can jet across the table (to run from melee threats or get on an objective at the end of the game). He also wont be popping over screens and sniping characters out like the tanks can.
Some additional benefits are the ability to leave combat (Fly) and the -2 to charge; additionally they don’t suffer the penalty to move+shoot. I personally like the gun as well due to the higher volume of shots at range.
That said, the Telemon is generally better against vehicles and takes a lot of firepower to bring down.
Eihnlazer wrote: Telemon is very good, but your not gonna be using 3 of them.
3 caladius grav tanks are great for their price point.
The extra durability on the Telemon only really extends to Strength 8 weaponry. The extra armor save only helps againgst small arms fire (as any high AP weapons are going up againgst the invun anyway.
The big loss is the mobility. No 14" fly limits him a lot compared to the tanks. They can get on top of buildings (for better LOS and potentially cover). They can jet across the table (to run from melee threats or get on an objective at the end of the game). He also wont be popping over screens and sniping characters out like the tanks can.
Some additional benefits are the ability to leave combat (Fly) and the -2 to charge; additionally they don’t suffer the penalty to move+shoot. I personally like the gun as well due to the higher volume of shots at range.
That said, the Telemon is generally better against vehicles and takes a lot of firepower to bring down.
Yeah, the Telemon also has a better invulnerable. It's more durable all around but the Caladius will have an easier time positioning and even grabbing end game objectives.
I'd also add that not all tournaments let you land on buildings (NOVA for example doesn't have much in the way of buildings and says you can't land on center ruins). Falling back and shooting still makes Fly incredibly useful though.
I get torn. The Telemon is a better Knight slayer, but if you're trying to blow up T7 vehicles or Primarchs, the Caladius is a good call too.
iGuy91 wrote: Do you believe the Telemon or the Caladius is the superior weapons platform for backing up the golden boys?
I think the Telemon is probably better, as you get the bolt launcher, better armor, and +1 Toughness. But you lose a few inches of movement.
They're both extremely solid units. it comes down to the role you need them to play. Telemons are generally better at holding ground, while Caladii are generally better at taking it. I personally tend towards the Telemon as its defensive statline is absolutely amazing (especially with Vexilla support), and already have other parts of the army it plays in designed to do the kinds of things that Caladii do.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Does the +1 to invuln if pure detachment rule also apply to the telemon/caladius?
No. Only infantry and bikes.
Was that in an FAQ, or am I just misreading my Dex?
page 72 in the AC codex
"ABILITIES
If your army is Battle-forged, all INFANTRY and BIKER units in ADEPTUS CUSTODES
Detachments gain the Sworn Guardians and
the Emperor’s Chosen abilities."
Speaking of which, my telemon arrives tomorrow next to a good chunk of the rest of my army! I've gotten very good deals on everything so far, but I bought the telemon full price from FW.
Just two boxes to go and I'm set for 2k games.
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Here's my initial list of what I'll have to field (There'll be a second banner on the side to be used later when I have more variety to field).
Drop your allarus custodians and praetor into a separate vanguard detachment, work out the numbers to make it 3x squads of 3, might have to drop a bike or make the praetor a normal one. Then you get an extra CP.
I don't know where people got the idea the miseracordia is a must take, but drop em. Put a pair on your warlords, because they should always be in melee.
Don't know why you upgraded the praetor to terminator edition, but DS'ing him isn't worth it. He can shoot, and he can do a 6" bubble. You want to keep him out of the fight phase.
Finally, you need psyker defense, or 1ksons will eat your lunch. 85pts and 2cp will get you an assasin, which gives an 18" anti psyker bubble. Worth it.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Drop your allarus custodians and praetor into a separate vanguard detachment, work out the numbers to make it 3x squads of 3, might have to drop a bike or make the praetor a normal one. Then you get an extra CP.
I don't know where people got the idea the miseracordia is a must take, but drop em. Put a pair on your warlords, because they should always be in melee.
Don't know why you upgraded the praetor to terminator edition, but DS'ing him isn't worth it. He can shoot, and he can do a 6" bubble. You want to keep him out of the fight phase.
Finally, you need psyker defense, or 1ksons will eat your lunch. 85pts and 2cp will get you an assasin, which gives an 18" anti psyker bubble. Worth it.
You realize that this list would need to cut ~300 points to make what you're suggesting happen right?
Not really. You just need to drop some of the current over stuffed units.
The 4x praetors could go down to 3, the allarus could go down to 3, that's 150pts right there.
You can drop about 40-50pts in Miseracordias as well, since those aren't required I don't think.
The three storm shields are kinda of superfluous, as the squads will have 4++ anyway across the board...
There are places to make cuts, and I like to take CPs over models in a pure Custodes list, plus the psycher defense is gonna cost CPs no matter which way you slice it. Either you're burning cp on the strat, or you are straight locking down psychic shenanigans with a Culexus?
Adding a Vanguard requires, at minimum, one additional HQ and another Allarus. That's 200+ points. Add in the assasin you want to bring, and you're pushing 300 minimum for a net minus one CP, as well as the loss of strategem cohesion on the Allarus bomb.
Fair argument, however I would state that the Assasin shuts down a hundred percent of the psychic in his range, for as long as he's alive. The strat only shuts down an average of 35% of the psychic, when you have cp, the first cast of the phase.
So, great, you blocked warp time, but the other 4 smites went off and deleted a unit or two. It's worth it at a min to take the assassin just as psychic defense. Just my opinion. 2 cp, his own little special det, for the cost of 1 bike.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Fair argument, however I would state that the Assasin shuts down a hundred percent of the psychic in his range, for as long as he's alive. The strat only shuts down an average of 35% of the psychic, when you have cp, the first cast of the phase.
So, great, you blocked warp time, but the other 4 smites went off and deleted a unit or two. It's worth it at a min to take the assassin just as psychic defense. Just my opinion. 2 cp, his own little special det, for the cost of 1 bike.
A Culexus is -2 to cast. Not shut down everything.
If he's the closest model, he also shuts down Smite (since it has to target him, and he's immune) but that's tricky to pull off.
Ok, well, I guess my only remaining argument is the Culexus will kill the psycher before anything else can, with the exception of a Vindicaire.
But I will bow to the group on this one. Culexus isn't that important.
Next point - when did SSs on Guardian squads become a thing? Is it really better to have one model with a 3+ over a 4+, and weaker offense? Surely the offensive power of the spear would overcome any 3++/4++ debate?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Ok, well, I guess my only remaining argument is the Culexus will kill the psycher before anything else can, with the exception of a Vindicaire.
But I will bow to the group on this one. Culexus isn't that important.
Next point - when did SSs on Guardian squads become a thing? Is it really better to have one model with a 3+ over a 4+, and weaker offense? Surely the offensive power of the spear would overcome any 3++/4++ debate?
The shooting is pretty meager either way. The main issue to me is cost.
Edit: Also, is the Culexus' gun still D1? Because if it is, it will NOT be killing Psykers at any reasonable rate.
Edit: Also, is the Culexus' gun still D1? Because if it is, it will NOT be killing Psykers at any reasonable rate.
Yes. There's a strat that boosts it to d3 damage for one shooting phase.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I would state that the Culexus isn't shooting to kill, it's tossing a Psych-out grenade, then charging.
The shooting is meager? 2 S5 ap3 D2 is meager? That's a dead marine squad, primaris or otherwise.
Speculum is Assault d3 S5 AP4 D1. It becomes d6 shots if a psyker is nearby.
Grenade is d3 S2 AP0 d1 with a mortal wound on a 6+ to hit against psykers or demons.
All of which boils down to a whopping...one and a bit wounds (before saves) on average.
You aint killing gak reliably with its shooting, or punching.
Well, I think you're wrong. Mostly because your psycher can't take saves against my punches. Do, as the previous person said, D6 shots at d3 damage, it's going to hit. So let's say 3 wound. It's gonna be the invuln save. Lets say they have a 4++. So maybe two get by. 2 wounds at d2, Maybe a grenade gets a 6. Thats a dead psycher. If not here comes 4 St 4 punches, which all hit on 2s, that you can't take armor saves against. There is maybe 2 more wounds.
So for 85pts, you are likely getting 3-5 wounds on a model that in most cases only has 3-5 wounds. If nothing else, for 85pts I've forced my opponent to keep his psycher back, or risk him. It's worth 85 points to keep Arihman off my board, and a unit that basically can't get touched by anything but a 6, and can with a strat lock down a unit, and force it to fight last, blunt entire charges, and regain wounds.
I mean, long story short, what is a better option for psycher defense for custodes?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Well, I think you're wrong. Mostly because your psycher can't take saves against my punches. Do, as the previous person said, D6 shots at d3 damage, it's going to hit. So let's say 3 wound. It's gonna be the invuln save. Lets say they have a 4++. So maybe two get by. 2 wounds at d2, Maybe a grenade gets a 6. Thats a dead psycher. If not here comes 4 St 4 punches, which all hit on 2s, that you can't take armor saves against. There is maybe 2 more wounds.
So for 85pts, you are likely getting 3-5 wounds on a model that in most cases only has 3-5 wounds. If nothing else, for 85pts I've forced my opponent to keep his psycher back, or risk him. It's worth 85 points to keep Arihman off my board, and a unit that basically can't get touched by anything but a 6, and can with a strat lock down a unit, and force it to fight last, blunt entire charges, and regain wounds.
I mean, long story short, what is a better option for psycher defense for custodes?
You think you're killing Ahriman with a Culexus in h2h? Or that you're intimidating him with it? Oh you sweet summer child.
If you want psyker defense, bring a passel of Sisters with a Brazier cannoness, or spring for a Grey Knights supreme command. The Culexus is a tarpit unit, not a psyker lockdown unit.
I meant the CUSTODIAN GUARD shooting is meager. Culexus is reasonably shooty... But only reasonably.
Against a T4 Psyker, you get 3.5 or 7/2 shots.
35/12 hits
35/18 wounds
A little under 4 damage, assuming no Invuln save and you pop the start. If you're targeting, say, Ahriman with his 4++, halve that.
The grenade does 2 shots.
5/3 hits.
5/18 wounds before saves and 5/18 mortals. Or, assuming a 3+ save, 10/27 wounds with the mortal, for about one third of a wound.
So, a Culexus can pretty reasonably drop a 4-wound T4 Pysker with no invuln with shooting, if they get a little lucky or are in grenade range.
I'm still confused. The Guard squad w/ 3x spears, shooting,
is 3/6 shots at S5, AP3, D2 damage. Hitting on 2s. I'll take those shots over an entire squad of Primaris marines with bolter rules. What am I not understanding?
My Culexus takes down more than he costs. All my assasins do. I don't have trouble earning their worth in matches.
The sisters (of silence or battle?) I did consider, but I'd rather go Supreme command det with 3 Primaris Psychers. Or 3 Primaris Librarians. Either or. GEQ null units make me meh.
As for the GK suggestion....I really don't want to buy any more GK models. I learned my lesson in that regard already this edition. You won't fool me again.
You take a shield in the Guard because they are not doing anything in a game anyway but stand on an objective and look pretty in gold.
A storm shield lets you tank big shots on him and makes the enemy spend more firepower on removing the unit, sparing the rest of your army as a result.
Their shooting is not impressive at all unless you regularly play against minimum squads of Primaris Marines.
Literally everything YOU have said has been wrong. Don’t roll into a thread telling people who have been discussing this army since the codex dropped that they are all stupid.
is 3/6 shots at S5, AP3, D2 damage. Hitting on 2s. I'll take those shots over an entire squad of Primaris marines with bolter rules. What am I not understanding?
My Culexus takes down more than he costs. All my assasins do. I don't have trouble earning their worth in matches.
The sisters (of silence or battle?) I did consider, but I'd rather go Supreme command det with 3 Primaris Psychers. Or 3 Primaris Librarians. Either or. GEQ null units make me meh.
As for the GK suggestion....I really don't want to buy any more GK models. I learned my lesson in that regard already this edition. You won't fool me again.
Yes stats are nice. How many points that is though? IG doesn't outshoot marine infantry by having superior guns but by having superior numbers.
Also dead guardian isn't shooting anything anyway and you don't need SS on every model.
My Culexus takes down more than he costs. All my assasins do. I don't have trouble earning their worth in matches.
Making your points back with an 85 point model that can, in the right hands, easily liquefy several hundred points of targets isnt an accomplishment. Its doing so in a way that justifies its opportunity cost.
The sisters (of silence or battle?) I did consider, but I'd rather go Supreme command det with 3 Primaris Psychers. Or 3 Primaris Librarians. Either or. GEQ null units make me meh.
As for the GK suggestion....I really don't want to buy any more GK models. I learned my lesson in that regard already this edition. You won't fool me again.
You're...wanting to run Primaris Libbies but refuse to look at the options that get you nearly double to triple the deny-efficiency on a per points basis while simultaneously being better beatsticks? Yeah that explains a lot.
Have any of you seen someone try to use multiple Vexilla Magnificas to stack -1s to hit? I don't see any RAW that prevents that. It would obviously be a dick move to try that. If it were to be accepted, I'd imagine it would get FAQed.
_SeeD_ wrote: Have any of you seen someone try to use multiple Vexilla Magnificas to stack -1s to hit? I don't see any RAW that prevents that. It would obviously be a dick move to try that. If it were to be accepted, I'd imagine it would get FAQed.
The same ability does not stack unless explicitly allowed to, like Night Lord's morale fethery.
_SeeD_ wrote: Have any of you seen someone try to use multiple Vexilla Magnificas to stack -1s to hit? I don't see any RAW that prevents that. It would obviously be a dick move to try that. If it were to be accepted, I'd imagine it would get FAQed.
The same ability does not stack unless explicitly allowed to, like Night Lord's morale fethery.
The closest thing we have to that is putting one next to an Orion, so we can be at the same level as Eldar flyers.
inducing 
