What are peoples thoughts on dealing with Knights now that they're common place?

Here's some maths vs T8 3+/5++ (in shooting),

Rocket Bikes + Captain:
- Shooting does ~5.5W
- On the Charge does ~15W

Axe Wardens + Captain:
- Shooting does ~2.5W
- On the Charge does (with -1AP strat) ~14W

Spear Guards + Captain:
- Shooting does ~2.5W
- On the Charge does (with +1 to wound strat) ~11.5W

Sword Guards + Captain:
- Shooting does ~0.5W
- On the Charge does ~7.5W

Land Raider + re-rolls:
- Shooting does ~7W

Telemon (w/ Culverins) + re-rolls
- Shooting does ~10W

Telemon (w/ double fists) + re-rolls
- Shooting does ~5W
- On the Charge does ~9.5W


As always, Bikes seem to be the answer but we'd need to get a couple of bike units into combat with a Captain to bring down a single knight. Facing a full army of knights could be a tad tricky.

For Custodes bikes would probably be the best way, just add as many bolter bikes as possible and a Telemon + CP Battery etc. I think you can only bring 1 Telemon though.
I also think that Knights will be a tough match-up for Custodes so playing the mission will be key.

From earlier in the thread:

 greyknight12 wrote:
For the FW options:
Caladius does 4 wounds from accelerator cannon+1.1 from bolt cannon (against a 5++)
Telemon does 2.8 from the Las storm, 3.3 from the accelerator culverin, 0.7 from bolt launcher,1.6 per plasma ejector and 8.1 damage in melee
Achillus does 1.7 from dreadspear+0.56 from the lastrum, 8.3 in melee assuming 4.5 damage avg (5.6 minimum, maybe a mortal wound)

For reference, a hurricane bolter does 0.56 wounds at rapid-fire, an axe or spear does 0.28.

Won a local 1250 tournament today, mix of chapter approved and BRB eternal war missions. My first actual tournament with the golden boys, and they did not disapoint.
My list: Outrider detachment
2x Bike captains, hurricane bolters, warlord had misericordia and SC, always gave them both 3++
1x Vexilla w/Magnifica, misericordia
3x3Vertus Praetors, hurricane bolters

Game 1: Up against a mech guard list: Tank commander (plasma sponsons), Executioner, company commander, a patrol of scions with plasma, taurox, and a bunch of guardsmen in chimeras. Front-line assault deployment, went first and pushed up the field and kept everyone within vexilla range (advanced him 4"). Took his shooting to the face and missed a bunch of saves, lost a bike squad+1 more from another squad. My next turn I charged in and wiped his tanks, scions, and a couple disembarked guard squads. Between overwatch and the vexilla the plasma russ was down half its hull points by the time I charged it. From there it was cleanup, I lost another bike from focused shooting but he conceded.

Game 2: 120 Ork boyz+a bit of artillery, 3 weirdboyz a painboy and bike nob. Dawn of War deployment, First turn again, wiped a choppa squad with hurricanes (outside of rapid-fire). I should have chosen second, but it worked out. He pushed 2 squads of shootas at me and Da Jump'd another one behind. No shooting to speak of, the vexilla is brutal on Orks. He failed one charge, 2 squads of shootas and the nob made it to combat and put down 1 squad and a wound on a different one. I backed the survivors out on my next turn and unloaded hurricanes into them. Charged with the unengaged bikes and a shield captain killed the nob with the vexilla's help. I ended the weirdboyz with my warlord next turn and he conceded with only his artillery remaining.

Game 3: 3 DE flyers, a wraithlord HQ, and 5 hornets. Hammer and Anvil deployment. I got first again, and charged headlong down the field (still within vexilla range). The vexilla saved me, and the eldar player rolled poorly. I lost 2 bikes from one squad and took 3 wounds on one in another squad. I chose to deepstrike the warlord, and threw everything at the hornets (the flyers had moved to my starting table edge) and killed all of them. He charged a squad with his wraithlord and whiffed, my next turn saw everyone charge the warlord and killed him. He moved his flyers back for one last salvo to try and pick off some of the single bikes, but I made all my saves or he missed. He conceded.


Small points work well for us, we don't lose a lot of effectiveness and don't feel bloated. The vexilla magnifica is a lifesaver and absolutely brutal against orks and stuff with "gets hot".

Hello Guys,

Briefing:
I am trying to join my Custodes with SM <chapter> forces. Yet, I haven't decided what chapter to joined them with.

Background:
I had few games with my pure Custodes and I found bikes to be too brutal and expensive. It take out all fun from playing tactical when you have 10 models on the table, and wiping multiple enemy units without hassle is also not that fair to the enemy. Sure, he learned now to bring as many anti-tank guns as possible and just shoot me down from multiple angles.

So now both armies are one dimensional, to perform best against each other. Nothing fresh, nothing new. That's why I decided to mix them with SM <chapter> and give them some more dimensions to play in.

Problem to solve:
Which SM chapter would work well with Guards?

Swarm of Crusaders with chain swords/combat knifes shielding them and joining in the CC? Re-roll charge sounds great.

Or maybe more shooty units? But again, they would be rather useless in CC when Guards reach the enemy. Ultras are great, as they can shoot when falling back. But I would have to pull back Guards as well to have any advantage of it.

Raven Guards with vexhila would give -2 to hit for enemy, great for long range support. Put 10 devastators, in two units and create a portable bunker from them. Place them behind cover and they will be indestructible.

Iron Hands with extra feel no pain save for being pure meat shield?

Vexila Magnifica only affects Custodes units, not Imperium units.

So I'm thinking of going to a 1,500 point tournament using NOVA rules. What do you guys think of a list that's basically:

Custodes Outrider: 1 HQ, 3 minimum Jetbike squads.

Imperial Knight: Crusader with Stormspear.

It'd only have 4 CP, but it seems pretty heavy and strong for the point range. I'd probably use 1 CP to give the IK the relic that makes him ObSec and count as 10 models when contesting other ObSec units.

 Filq wrote:
Hello Guys,

Briefing:
I am trying to join my Custodes with SM <chapter> forces. Yet, I haven't decided what chapter to joined them with.

Background:
I had few games with my pure Custodes and I found bikes to be too brutal and expensive. It take out all fun from playing tactical when you have 10 models on the table, and wiping multiple enemy units without hassle is also not that fair to the enemy. Sure, he learned now to bring as many anti-tank guns as possible and just shoot me down from multiple angles.

So now both armies are one dimensional, to perform best against each other. Nothing fresh, nothing new. That's why I decided to mix them with SM <chapter> and give them some more dimensions to play in.

Problem to solve:
Which SM chapter would work well with Guards?

Swarm of Crusaders with chain swords/combat knifes shielding them and joining in the CC? Re-roll charge sounds great.

Or maybe more shooty units? But again, they would be rather useless in CC when Guards reach the enemy. Ultras are great, as they can shoot when falling back. But I would have to pull back Guards as well to have any advantage of it.

Raven Guards with vexhila would give -2 to hit for enemy, great for long range support. Put 10 devastators, in two units and create a portable bunker from them. Place them behind cover and they will be indestructible.

Iron Hands with extra feel no pain save for being pure meat shield?

Depends what you wanna do with your accompanying space marines,if you wanty a gunline, proably raven guard is best, iron hands might give you some durability... Imperial Fists might be an intreasting choice because they can handle any infantry that digs in in ruins.

Audustum wrote:
So I'm thinking of going to a 1,500 point tournament using NOVA rules. What do you guys think of a list that's basically:

Custodes Outrider: 1 HQ, 3 minimum Jetbike squads.

Imperial Knight: Crusader with Stormspear.

It'd only have 4 CP, but it seems pretty heavy and strong for the point range. I'd probably use 1 CP to give the IK the relic that makes him ObSec and count as 10 models when contesting other ObSec units.

Doesn’t seem good to me where’s your cp farm?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ravenguard are not very good. Your best choice is Deathwatch. They are very competitive.

 Primark G wrote:

Audustum wrote:
So I'm thinking of going to a 1,500 point tournament using NOVA rules. What do you guys think of a list that's basically:

Custodes Outrider: 1 HQ, 3 minimum Jetbike squads.

Imperial Knight: Crusader with Stormspear.

It'd only have 4 CP, but it seems pretty heavy and strong for the point range. I'd probably use 1 CP to give the IK the relic that makes him ObSec and count as 10 models when contesting other ObSec units.

Doesn’t seem good to me where’s your cp farm?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ravenguard are not very good. Your best choice is Deathwatch. They are very competitive.

CP IS the major drawback of it. That said, if you take a CP farm you have to either not take an Outrider of all Bikes or not take a Knight. Forgeworld beta rules aren't allowed so I can't slap in a Telemon/Caladius for anti-tank which also limits my long range heavy fire.

If I can slot it sufficient ranged anti-tank to deal with pairs of Leviathans, Tesseract Vaults, Tau in general and Mortarion, all of which I expect to see, then I'm all for adding it. But I'm stumped on ways to add that kind of long range firepower while having the room for a CP farm and the optimal Jetbike detachment.

Leviathan is a relic unit.

 Primark G wrote:
Leviathan is a relic unit.

And that doesn't preclude you from having two? You just have to have enough non-relic units in the slot to support it.

Also, the Chaos version of a Leviathan does not have the Relic rule.

Two at 1500 is auto lose.

 Primark G wrote:
Two at 1500 is auto lose.

My quick math says a Space Marine Battalion with two Relic Leviathans and 2 Devastator units (assuming you give them 8 lascannons, 1 missile launcher and 1 heavy Bolter) is about 1,321. So you still even have flex points. I wouldn't call it auto-lose at all
That said, whatever we think of it, it is still something I have fair odds of facing and need to be ready for.

Don't forget the Chaos version has no Relic rule either. They can just slap two in with no tax.

It’s not a lot of bodies - might be win big/lose big.

Guys, can you join FROM GOLDEN LIGHT THEY COME and VEXILLA TELEPORT HOMER for instant 92% charge success deep strike?

Scenario, 2nd turn
at the end of movement phase:
- Use FGLTC to teleport Vexilus Praetor 9" from the enemy
- Use FGLTC to teleport squad (10 guards )...
- ... use VTH to place them in 6" from Preator, but 3" from enemy.
- Shoot the hell out of them with 20 shoots on rapid fire from guardian spear
- Roll at least 1+2 to charge them.

Now, join it with Black Templars reroll to charge, deepstriking from the other side/another unit and you can pretty much dig in the enemy lines without worry about being shoot down to early.

 Filq wrote:
Guys, can you join FROM GOLDEN LIGHT THEY COME and VEXILLA TELEPORT HOMER for instant 92% charge success deep strike?

Scenario, 2nd turn
at the end of movement phase:
- Use FGLTC to teleport Vexilus Praetor 9" from the enemy
- Use FGLTC to teleport squad (10 guards )...
- ... use VTH to place them in 6" from Preator, but 3" from enemy.
- Shoot the hell out of them with 20 shoots on rapid fire from guardian spear
- Roll at least 1+2 to charge them.

Now, join it with Black Templars reroll to charge, deepstriking from the other side/another unit and you can pretty much dig in the enemy lines without worry about being shoot down to early.

Pretty sure the Vexilla has to be on the field at the start of the turn to use the Teleport Homer Stratagem. Don't have the book with me but I think thats the wording. So you'd have to wait an extra turn before bringing your big squad in and hope your banner guy doesn't die.

 Filq wrote:
Guys, can you join FROM GOLDEN LIGHT THEY COME and VEXILLA TELEPORT HOMER for instant 92% charge success deep strike?

The VTH strat explicitly forbids this, so no.

Yeah and theres no reason to use FGLTC for that combo anyway.

Take an allarus Vexilla with magnifica and drop him in the backfield turn 2. Works great if you have a flyer in your army to park by him and make him unshootable. Then turn 3 your termy squad comes in to counter punch whatever is moving towards him and to lock down the backfield.

If your running a squad of terminators, this guy is a must.

if you are going all in on the Allarus bomb you use the Allarus Vexila with the Praetorian Plate relic. This let's him start on the board and "Teleport" to a tagged character in CC i.e. a Shield-Captain on Bike.
Activate Praetorian Plate, transport Vexilla then use the Vexila Teleport Homer to drop the Allarus Bomb in CC. Then for added fun Unleash the lions.

X078 wrote:
if you are going all in on the Allarus bomb you use the Allarus Vexila with the Praetorian Plate relic. This let's him start on the board and "Teleport" to a tagged character in CC i.e. a Shield-Captain on Bike.
Activate Praetorian Plate, transport Vexilla then use the Vexila Teleport Homer to drop the Allarus Bomb in CC. Then for added fun Unleash the lions.

Which works once, assuming your enemy doesn't read the relic and put two and two together.
And every time after he will simply retreat from combat with your selected character.

If you want to run Allarus just accept your going to have to gamble on a 9" charge from deepstrike.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Filq wrote:
Hello Guys,

Briefing:
I am trying to join my Custodes with SM <chapter> forces. Yet, I haven't decided what chapter to joined them with.

Background:
I had few games with my pure Custodes and I found bikes to be too brutal and expensive. It take out all fun from playing tactical when you have 10 models on the table, and wiping multiple enemy units without hassle is also not that fair to the enemy. Sure, he learned now to bring as many anti-tank guns as possible and just shoot me down from multiple angles.

So now both armies are one dimensional, to perform best against each other. Nothing fresh, nothing new. That's why I decided to mix them with SM <chapter> and give them some more dimensions to play in.

Problem to solve:
Which SM chapter would work well with Guards?

Swarm of Crusaders with chain swords/combat knifes shielding them and joining in the CC? Re-roll charge sounds great.

Or maybe more shooty units? But again, they would be rather useless in CC when Guards reach the enemy. Ultras are great, as they can shoot when falling back. But I would have to pull back Guards as well to have any advantage of it.

Raven Guards with vexhila would give -2 to hit for enemy, great for long range support. Put 10 devastators, in two units and create a portable bunker from them. Place them behind cover and they will be indestructible.

Iron Hands with extra feel no pain save for being pure meat shield?

You can go Blood Angels for more all in combat.
Ravenguard can make a more gunline approach (or also in their face thanks to SftS. Aggressors appearing infront of your lines). Are you shooting them or the bikes they will destroy you the turn after?
Deathwatch if you want to focus on Primaris marines.

Space Wolves might be nice when their codex finally comes. Could be worth waiting for that.

What you and your friend are running into is an inherent problem of Custodes. Its a very one dimensional army. Which is normal considering the amount of units you have access to.

X078 wrote:
if you are going all in on the Allarus bomb you use the Allarus Vexila with the Praetorian Plate relic. This let's him start on the board and "Teleport" to a tagged character in CC i.e. a Shield-Captain on Bike.
Activate Praetorian Plate, transport Vexilla then use the Vexila Teleport Homer to drop the Allarus Bomb in CC. Then for added fun Unleash the lions.

There's a lot of ifs.

Praetorian plate is activated in the opponents charge phase. If they're paying attention, they can fall back so the plate isn't activated.

If your captain kills everything when he charges, again no luck.

If they kill your captain Praetorian plate is worthless, because you choose the only character it can teleport to before the battle starts.

If they swarm your captain such that there is no space within 3" of the Vexilla to teleport to, you can't do it.

If after you Praetorian plate teleport, they kill your vexilla, you're again out of luck. The Vexilla has to be in combat.

And finally, it's 3 CP and 1 relic for a one trick pony that still only gets your terminators in on round 2 at the very earliest, but more likely round 3. If it's not countered.

New to Custodes so forgive me if this question has been answered before.

I play Guard and am allying in some Golden boys. I always take a Guard Warlord - but am afraid now that the Knights have a Shieldbreaker missile and a Stratagem that can kill my little guy outright.
The Custodes’ “Shoulder the Mantle” stratagem allows me to pick a Shield-Captain from my army and make him the new Warlord “when your Warlord is slain”. The wording seems to imply the slain Warlord doesn’t necessarily have to come from the Custodes faction. I didn’t see any clarification in the FAQ either.
Am I correct in this?

Also, if my Custodes Warlord has the Superior Creation trait and takes a mortal Wound, can he roll for his 6+ Aegis then follow up with the Superior Creation (5+ FNP) if he fails the Aegis save?

Shoulder the Mantle indeed does not require your (dead) warlord to be Custodes.

And as per the Rulebook faq, abilities that let you ignore wounds do not stack.
So its either Superior Creation or Aegis but not both (obv Superior Creation is better)

Ok, thanks for the quick reply!!

Question 1. Am I the alone one to feel that the Victor of the blood games stratagem is not mandatory at all? 2cp out of ~8 is a lot. If he dies and my warlord, I'll use Shoulder the Mantle anyway.
Question 2. In any case, can I use this stratagem on more than one character if i want? Has anyone done it?
Question 3. Has anyone tried the warlord trait that let all units within 12'' perform heroic intervention? Since my bikes and captain will ride and stick together, it may be useful often.

Stooping dive is tactically fun.. and brutal.

1. I rarely use it and feel it’s unnecessary.

There are some matchups where I expect my captain to do heavy lifting and be threatened so the re-rolls are nice.
Otherwise its probably to expensive. Remember your already re-rolling all your attacks because of his aura and to wounds when charging.
Its mainly about if you expect you will want to re-roll more then 2 saves with him during the battle

2)Its during deployment so the stratagem limit does not apply.

If you are using a guard battalion or brigade it is definitely worth it. I am switching over to two battalions and a vanguard so I will probably use it again.

What are peoples opinion on adding a Knight Castellan to a Custodes army (mostly bikes, minimal guard battalion) to provide long range firepower and a fire magnet to draw shots away from the bikes.

Knights are a pretty strong addition to an army these days, so go for it

 Ordana wrote:
What are peoples opinion on adding a Knight Castellan to a Custodes army (mostly bikes, minimal guard battalion) to provide long range firepower and a fire magnet to draw shots away from the bikes.

It would definitely help the army IMO.

Got a game coming up, the guy wants to play a 1500pts Competitive game in preperation for some local Tournament.

This is the list I'm thinking of taking against him:

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [13 PL, 180pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Regimental Doctrine: Astra Millitarum

+ HQ +

Company Commander [2 PL, 30pts]: Chainsword, Kurov's Aquila, Laspistol

Company Commander [2 PL, 30pts]: Chainsword, Grand Strategist, Laspistol, Warlord

+ Troops +

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Laspistol

++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Imperium - Imperial Knights) [20 PL, 354pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Exalted Court: Exalted Court: 1 Extra Warlord Trait (-1CP)

Heirlooms of the Household: Heirlooms of the Household: 1 Extra Heirloom (-1CP)

Household Choice: House Hawkshroud, Questor Imperialis

+ Lord of War +

Knight Gallant [20 PL, 354pts]: Heavy stubber, Heirloom: The Paragon Gauntlet, Reaper chainsword, Thunderstrike gauntlet, Warlord Trait: Ion Bulwark
. Character: Exalted Court Member

++ Patrol Detachment (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) [50 PL, 964pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Open the Vaults (2 Relics)

+ HQ +

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 164pts]: Eagle's Eye, Hurricane Bolter, Misericordia

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 164pts]: Auric Aquilis, Hurricane Bolter, Misericordia

+ Troops +

Custodian Guard Squad [11 PL, 230pts]
. Custodian: Guardian Spear, Misericordia
. Custodian: Guardian Spear, Misericordia
. Custodian: Sentinel Blade, Storm Shield
. Custodian: Sentinel Blade, Storm Shield

+ Elites +

Vexillus Praetor [6 PL, 124pts]: Castellan Axe, Vexilla Magnifica

+ Fast Attack +

Vertus Praetors [15 PL, 282pts]
. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter, Misericordia
. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter, Misericordia
. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter, Misericordia

++ Total: [83 PL, 1498pts] ++

Thoughts? Haven't had mutch experience with Custodes at 1500pts.

Gallants can be really good - seems like a solid list to me.

It feels a bit of a bummer to take a knight outside a full warlord detachment and you are very low on CPs, but otherwise it’s a solid selection

stratigo wrote:
It feels a bit of a bummer to take a knight outside a full warlord detachment and you are very low on CPs, but otherwise it’s a solid selection

Yeah that's the only problem, after pregame stratagems I only have 3CP left (1 if I take VotBG).

I could switch a Shield Captain for two more Bikes and save 2CP on relics.

Id indeed switch a captain for more bikes. Not worth the CP when your this tight already.

Id also just drop all the Misericordia's and spend the points on a few mortars. That 1 attack isn't going to make a difference and the mortars quickly add up to dead objective squads from your enemy.

Not sure if I would bother with the Paragon Gauntlet either.

 mrhappyface wrote:

stratigo wrote:
It feels a bit of a bummer to take a knight outside a full warlord detachment and you are very low on CPs, but otherwise it’s a solid selection

Yeah that's the only problem, after pregame stratagems I only have 3CP left (1 if I take VotBG).

I could switch a Shield Captain for two more Bikes and save 2CP on relics.

The lower the points of the game, the more powerful Jetbikes are. Jetbikes at lower levels basically force your opponent to field a skew list while not doing the same to you because the Jetbikes themselves are such all rounders.

So yes, cram in every Jetbike you possibly can (you can also reference my 1,500 point list from 2 pages back or so, which is all Jetbikes and 1 Knight).

Unfortunately, super-heavy Auxiliary detachments are excluded from the section of rules that allows Knight Lances and Household traditions, so you're better off making him a Freeblade to get some sort of bonus. Can still pay CP to give him the WL trait and relic of course

I thought all knights got household traditions?

Edit: nevermind. They all get a household, but don't get household traditions in an auxiliary detachment. The difference matters for relic choices.

The codex is very clear on it

IMPERIAL KNIGHTS Detachments (excluding
Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachments) gain the
following abilities:

Ordana wrote:Id indeed switch a captain for more bikes. Not worth the CP when your this tight already.

Id also just drop all the Misericordia's and spend the points on a few mortars. That 1 attack isn't going to make a difference and the mortars quickly add up to dead objective squads from your enemy.

Not sure if I would bother with the Paragon Gauntlet either.

At the moment I only have the one mortar team (I know,i should be flogged!) and it's built using different Guard models than my current guard. Eventually I'll get round to building some mortars but for now I'll have to go without.

Also, I quite like the paragon gauntlet; it's a great Super Heavy killer now that they are common place.

Audustum wrote:
The lower the points of the game, the more powerful Jetbikes are. Jetbikes at lower levels basically force your opponent to field a skew list while not doing the same to you because the Jetbikes themselves are such all rounders.

So yes, cram in every Jetbike you possibly can (you can also reference my 1,500 point list from 2 pages back or so, which is all Jetbikes and 1 Knight).

Alas, much like mortars, I'm lacking in bikes: I only have 3 bikes and 3 bike captains, not enough for an outrider. Unfortunately I've made the mistake of deciding to convert my entire Custodes force, so after 6 bikes I'm running out of unique ways to customize them.

Spartacus wrote:Unfortunately, super-heavy Auxiliary detachments are excluded from the section of rules that allows Knight Lances and Household traditions, so you're better off making him a Freeblade to get some sort of bonus. Can still pay CP to give him the WL trait and relic of course

Any suggestions on what qualities/burdens to take? They all seem a bit lack luster to me.

Or perhaps I should stay with a household in order to use one of the house stratagems, such as the one that basically makes my knight a house Hawkshroud knight for a turn?

I’ve been thinking about adding a Telemon to my list in lieu of adding Knights, but I’ve noticed the Telemon cannot move out of combat and still shoot like a Knight, so it has a real potential of getting tarpitted.
Anyone have experience with the Telemon?

 davidgr33n wrote:
I’ve been thinking about adding a Telemon to my list in lieu of adding Knights, but I’ve noticed the Telemon cannot move out of combat and still shoot like a Knight, so it has a real potential of getting tarpitted.
Anyone have experience with the Telemon?

I do, it's OK, not as good as I thought it was going to be (I've taken it in a few games now and it has yet to kill anything, only wounded stuff) if you keep it with a Vexilla and Custodes Guard Guard then it discourages people from charging it.

Offensively it doesn’t look that scary. In close combat it only has 4 attacks, and shooting the best and cheapest loadout is with double culverins, but to get the 2+ shooting you can’t move, so it limits what you can do. Also, none of the weapons have a high damage profile. I think the Telemon is over-rated.

Came up with a 2k list the other day, would like some feedback on it.

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) [94 PL, 1814pts] ++

+ HQ +

Shield-Captain [7 PL, 122pts]: Guardian Spear

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 175pts]: Salvo Launcher, Warlord

+ Troops +

Custodian Guard Squad [14 PL, 295pts]
. Custodian: Sentinel Blade, Storm Shield
. Custodian: Sentinel Blade, Storm Shield
. Custodian: Sentinel Blade, Storm Shield
. Custodian: Sentinel Blade, Storm Shield
. Custodian: Sentinel Blade, Storm Shield

Custodian Guard Squad [11 PL, 224pts]
. Custodian: Guardian Spear, Misericordia
. Custodian: Guardian Spear, Misericordia
. Custodian: Guardian Spear, Misericordia
. Custodian: Guardian Spear, Misericordia

Custodian Guard Squad [11 PL, 208pts]
. Custodian: Guardian Spear
. Custodian: Guardian Spear
. Custodian: Guardian Spear
. Custodian: Guardian Spear

+ Fast Attack +

Vertus Praetors [25 PL, 480pts]
. Vertus Praetor: Salvo Launcher
. Vertus Praetor: Salvo Launcher
. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter
. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter
. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter

+ Heavy Support +

Telemon Heavy Dreadnought (Beta) [17 PL, 310pts]: Illiastus Accelerator Culverin, Illiastus Accelerator Culverin

++ Battalion Detachment (Faction) (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [13 PL, 180pts] ++

Regimental Doctrine: Cadian

+ HQ +

Company Commander [2 PL, 30pts]: Chainsword, Kurov's Aquila, Laspistol

Company Commander [2 PL, 30pts]: Chainsword, Laspistol

+ Troops +

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Laspistol

++ Total: [107 PL, 1994pts] ++


So I have the obligatory CP farm from IG, giving me 13CP total. Instead of spamming bikes I've gone for 1 squad of 5 backed up by a Captain, while the standard Custodians advance up the board supported by the Telemon.

Thoughts?

The Telemon with Culverins is ok in a pure Custodes list or if you cannot spare another detachment for some heavy support.
But for pure competitiveness there are probably other options. Although if you are playing competitive why not just go Aeldari/Drukhari

X078 wrote:
The Telemon with Culverins is ok in a pure Custodes list or if you cannot spare another detachment for some heavy support.
But for pure competitiveness there are probably other options. Although if you are playing competitive why not just go Aeldari/Drukhari

\

Mixed Imperium is, in my estimation, stronger than mixed eldar.

Why aren't you mixing the storm shields into the other units to give each Guard unit some more staying power?

@Valkerie
I would drop all the salvo launchers, and upgrade your foot captain to a bike one. The bike can do everything the foot captain does, but also has the speed to help out with an assault or reposition quickly. Plus, you don't really need the salvo launchers, we've done the math earlier in the thread showing that hurricanes are generally just fine and you've got the telemon for ranged anti-armor.
I agree with mrhappyface, I would mix the shields into the other squads. Personally I would also go for more smaller squads (3/3/3/4) so you can spread out more. Custodes are good enough individually that even a single guard can tear up a AM infantry squad, so keeping a big unit just becomes a bigger target and an over-concentration of offensive power into something that moves 6" a turn.

I think a couple of Salvo Launchers could be beneficial when you are bringing a Telemon for anti-tank. My ethos is that if you're investing into AT shooting you should at least be able to kill a tank per furn right? Otherwise just bring more bodies.

A single Telemon will fall just short of that statistically (roughly 11 wounds to T7 3+ or 8.5 to T8), so a couple of melta missiles should help you secure that kill.

Particularly vs T8, I wouldn't trust more Hurricane Bolters to finish off hard targets, even when you can get in rapid fire range.

T8 is what custodes bring lances and axes for.

Just thought up a nasty pure custodes list

Outrider
Bike captain, hurricane, WL, SC, auric aquilis
3x3 bikes, 2 salvo in each

Battalion
2x bike captain, hurricane
3x3 guard, 1 S&B in each
Terminator vexilla.


I haven't used it but that sounds nastyyyy for pure custodes. The -1 to hit usually encourages my opponent to shoot at whatevers not got it so that means slow stuff can actually get there. This woild also be absolutely disgusting in my local meta. The salvos. are in there for the ranged AT, if I dropped them I could take a culexus though.
Thoughts?

That would be disgusting, I'm so looking forward to the day that I actually get round to building another two bike units so that I can take a full detachment of them.

Yeah, dropping the Bolters for a Culexus might be an idea if you were to go up against Thousand Sons, Daemons, Eldar, GK, etc.

I'd also personally take a normal Vexilla with an Axe so that he has some offensive capabilities too (also helps when popping transports).

 McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:
Just thought up a nasty pure custodes list

Outrider
Bike captain, hurricane, WL, SC, auric aquilis
3x3 bikes, 2 salvo in each

Battalion
2x bike captain, hurricane
3x3 guard, 1 S&B in each
Terminator vexilla.


I haven't used it but that sounds nastyyyy for pure custodes. The -1 to hit usually encourages my opponent to shoot at whatevers not got it so that means slow stuff can actually get there. This woild also be absolutely disgusting in my local meta. The salvos. are in there for the ranged AT, if I dropped them I could take a culexus though.
Thoughts?

Its nice for a pure Custodes list but suffers from the usual problems of a pure Custodes list.

And I expect it to get worse with the introduction of Knights.
Yes you can charge and poke a knight to death turn 2 but your going to lose models are a pretty decent rate and lose effectiveness before he runs out of Knights.

I like it. Put the bikes in deep strike if you have to so they don't get alpha striked off the table.

Oh I definitely agree that for it to be competitive it needs an ig battery, but for pure custodes I can't think of a better list. (Maybe a telemon list)

@mrhappyface that's a decent idea actually, I've just built mine as a terminator.

@Primark G I think putting the bikes in reserve wastes their initial shock. Having to come down in the deployment zone means you can't maneuver into a nicer spot elsewhere, or pop a first turn charge. Also, if I hide 1-2 squads in the sky, the other will just be shot off.



Tried a list similar to this today (still need 3 more bikes) and boy did it do work. A horde of DG marines got obliterated. He had over 40 of them, by T3 there were none left.The bikrs did all the heavy lifting, and salvo launchers are tasty against vehicles. Lot of fun.

Salvo launchers need some TLC badly like replace heavy with Assault or something. Current points cost is just bad in my view.

Yeah, but only compared to 10 pt hurricane bolters.

If Salvo Launchers were the only option Jetbikes would still be the strongest pick in the codex.

I'd like to see hurricane bolters and Biker shield captains go up a little in cost next CA, while terminators and vehicles go waaaaay down.

I actually think the Hurricane bikers are costed ok.
Unfortunately it is not enough to just lower the points for the Terminators since they still lack movement to do anything worth their points.
My first suggestion would be to drop points and add a stratagem that allows their unit to redeploy via teleportation, basically copy and adapt Blood Angels - Upon Wings of Fire stratagem. THAT would make them worthwhile in my view, though i've never heard of them introducing new Stratagems.

But realistically change the Praetorian Plate relic to allow teleportation without the silly need of being close to the enemies in their charge phase. Then lower points on the Vexilla Teleport Homer to 1 CP. That combo might do the trick, partly at least. Still not as good as getting a BA like stratagem.

These units needs points reductions and/or amendments in various ways.
Trajann
Allarus
Bike Salvo launcher
All Vexilla units, too expensive and lots of redundant strats. besides being a standalone character the vexilla should be wargear in all units.

 McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:


@Primark G I think putting the bikes in reserve wastes their initial shock. Having to come down in the deployment zone means you can't maneuver into a nicer spot elsewhere, or pop a first turn charge. Also, if I hide 1-2 squads in the sky, the other will just be shot off.

Reserving is better than being alpha striked and losing them.

X078 wrote:
I actually think the Hurricane bikers are costed ok.
Unfortunately it is not enough to just lower the points for the Terminators since they still lack movement to do anything worth their points.
My first suggestion would be to drop points and add a stratagem that allows their unit to redeploy via teleportation, basically copy and adapt Blood Angels - Upon Wings of Fire stratagem. THAT would make them worthwhile in my view, though i've never heard of them introducing new Stratagems.

But realistically change the Praetorian Plate relic to allow teleportation without the silly need of being close to the enemies in their charge phase. Then lower points on the Vexilla Teleport Homer to 1 CP. That combo might do the trick, partly at least. Still not as good as getting a BA like stratagem.

These units needs points reductions and/or amendments in various ways.
Trajann
Allarus
Bike Salvo launcher
All Vexilla units, too expensive and lots of redundant strats. besides being a standalone character the vexilla should be wargear in all units.

Allarus Custaodes are a 2+/4++ 4 wound unit. with deep strike and OS. that's a phenominal unit, if custodes didn't have FGLTC they'd likely be a lot more popular. problem is, with that stratigium, your native deep strikers need to be cheap eneugh that taking them instead of burning the CP is worth it.

Just curious if anyone takes the Auric Shackles Relic on any of their Shield-Captains? It seems like a great Relic considering how often we match up vs other Characters, even Knights.

Is it still pretty much bikes or bust with the golden boys? They have such cool minis now. Keep wanting to pick some up. Did the FW units give them other viable approaches?

 Eldarain wrote:
Is it still pretty much bikes or bust with the golden boys? They have such cool minis now. Keep wanting to pick some up. Did the FW units give them other viable approaches?

FW beta rules (and they’re still beta) gave us anti-big vehicle: shooting/punching them with dreadnoughts or shooting them with a tank. Hopefully they get some points drops/rules updates, but the remaining models really have the interesting potential when they get rules:
Heavy ranged custodian guard
Flamer-armed terminators (with maybe a 3++?)
Dreadnought with a storm shield
If done well, any of those things would be very worthwhile to include.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 davidgr33n wrote:
Just curious if anyone takes the Auric Shackles Relic on any of their Shield-Captains? It seems like a great Relic considering how often we match up vs other Characters, even Knights.

-1 attack isn’t better than +1 invul. Since you can have 2 3++ for a single CP (warlord and one other), spending an extra 2 CP to get a third relic that isn’t as good doesn’t make sense a lot considering the other things you can do especially when your CP pool is limited.

 Eldarain wrote:
Is it still pretty much bikes or bust with the golden boys? They have such cool minis now. Keep wanting to pick some up. Did the FW units give them other viable approaches?

At the top levels of competition. Yes, its bikes or bust.

That said can't hurt to pick up some minis you like the look of, I suspect custodes will get a points adjustment come CA.

I’ve seen a good number of lists that’s not all jetbikes... knew this would come up again.

 Primark G wrote:
I’ve seen a good number of lists that’s not all jetbikes... knew this would come up again.

I have too, but right now jetbikes are definatly the best choice. I expect GW'll address this, and I'm hoping they points discount Allarus custodes instead of nerf the bikes.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
I’ve seen a good number of lists that’s not all jetbikes... knew this would come up again.

I have too, but right now jetbikes are definatly the best choice. I expect GW'll address this, and I'm hoping they points discount Allarus custodes instead of nerf the bikes.

I hope so as well. The Bikes aren't actually overpowered in relation to other Codices, it's just that non-Bike Custodes are underpowered compared to other Codices so the Bikes seem overtly strong WITHIN the Codex by comparison.

But if you just nerfed Jetbikes we'd drop down to below mid-tier unless FW saves us.

I meant to say I’ve seen a good number of lists that aren’t all jetbikes.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
I’ve seen a good number of lists that’s not all jetbikes... knew this would come up again.

I have too, but right now jetbikes are definatly the best choice. I expect GW'll address this, and I'm hoping they points discount Allarus custodes instead of nerf the bikes.

They do need to nerf the captain on bike, but I hope the squads stay roughly the same cost

What do Adeptus Custodes have for optimal anti-tank options? Thanks!

 Primark G wrote:
I meant to say I’ve seen a good number of lists that aren’t all jetbikes.

No you haven't. At minimum you see some Custodes Guard being ran and granted they're pretty decent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
I’ve seen a good number of lists that’s not all jetbikes... knew this would come up again.

I have too, but right now jetbikes are definatly the best choice. I expect GW'll address this, and I'm hoping they points discount Allarus custodes instead of nerf the bikes.

Nerfing bikes won't make any of the Elite choices more appealing though.

BillyN831 wrote:
What do Adeptus Custodes have for optimal anti-tank options? Thanks!

Custodes don’t really have any “optimal” choices for anti-tank. Everything is expensive. That said, our options are:
1. Axes and Lances: beat it to death in CC.
2. Salvo launchers should be good, but for some reason no one has ever really got them to work and they aren’t much better than hurricanes against a lot of targets.
3. FW: the Telemon can punch or shoot at tanks, the Achillus can spear tanks, the Callidus Tank can shoot them. They are all varying degrees of overcosted though, and don’t have good way to defend against being the only vehicle in your army.

The Telemon dreadnaught and grav tank are both good anti tank but are presently overcosted.

BillyN831 wrote:
What do Adeptus Custodes have for optimal anti-tank options? Thanks!

Hit them with the pointy end.
That's basically it.

BillyN831 wrote:
What do Adeptus Custodes have for optimal anti-tank options? Thanks!

Punch them to death or bring allies, pretty much. Salvo launchers are a thing but aren’t particularly impressive.

Well.....LandRaiders have lascannons…..LOL, I could barely suggest that with a strait face. I converted two of them, but outside of friendly mega battles and photo shoots they will likely be case Queens.

 cuda1179 wrote:
Well.....LandRaiders have lascannons…..LOL, I could barely suggest that with a strait face. I converted two of them, but outside of friendly mega battles and photo shoots they will likely be case Queens.

The Land Raider was my favorite model growing up. I’m still bitter that all variants of LRs just straight up suck in every army this edition. AC probably have the worst, though.

Thanks!

stratigo wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
I’ve seen a good number of lists that’s not all jetbikes... knew this would come up again.

I have too, but right now jetbikes are definatly the best choice. I expect GW'll address this, and I'm hoping they points discount Allarus custodes instead of nerf the bikes.

They do need to nerf the captain on bike, but I hope the squads stay roughly the same cost

they just need to ban the supreme command detachment from ranked play

BrianDavion wrote:

stratigo wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
I’ve seen a good number of lists that’s not all jetbikes... knew this would come up again.

I have too, but right now jetbikes are definatly the best choice. I expect GW'll address this, and I'm hoping they points discount Allarus custodes instead of nerf the bikes.

They do need to nerf the captain on bike, but I hope the squads stay roughly the same cost

they just need to ban the supreme command detachment from ranked play

You’d just see other ways to get them in

stratigo wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

stratigo wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
I’ve seen a good number of lists that’s not all jetbikes... knew this would come up again.

I have too, but right now jetbikes are definatly the best choice. I expect GW'll address this, and I'm hoping they points discount Allarus custodes instead of nerf the bikes.

They do need to nerf the captain on bike, but I hope the squads stay roughly the same cost

they just need to ban the supreme command detachment from ranked play

You’d just see other ways to get them in

I don't want people being stopped from taking them, but I think people taking JUST Bike captains is a problem.

People just taking 3 of any HQ is a problem

 greyknight12 wrote:
People just taking 3 of any HQ is a problem

I agree 100% HQs should be HQs. not the entire basis of your army.

I'm with Brian. That detachment was a mistake.

Maybe 3 SC on bike and a Allrus Contemptor Dreadnought (that spear holding Dread)?

 Eldarain wrote:
I'm with Brian. That detachment was a mistake.

I mean I get why they did it, they promised 8th edition wouldn't make any armies "illegal" and they had to account for stuff like the Librarian conclave, but it really is a sacrifice they should have just made.

Particularly since battalions allow for 3 commanders in any regards and even patrols fit, I believe, 2. It's not at all hard to jam hqs into the game.

Hi, I'm about to go to a (NOVA) tourney and it's my first time fielding custodes. I have a bunch of custodes questions, but first...

The list:


The tactics:


Questions:
1. Is Victor of the Blood Games worthwhile on my lead warlord biker(s), or should I just save a point or two for command rerolls? An opponent of mine took VotBG on his lead 3++ warlord in a recent tournament game - I took him out with hellfire shells and flakk missiles, bypassing both. In what matchups should I go for VotBG?
2. Suppose you're facing this with a custodes biker spam list. Say with a knight and IG Cp battery. How do you deal with my list? What do you fear and target early?
3. What should I NOT assault with my bikers? What has been capable of withstanding your bikers' assault?
4. How have your shield-captains fared against demon princes?
5. Do your opponents tend to fear biker captains? Most of the point is to draw fire away from my devastators, mortars, and NOVA engineer units, and then tank all day.
6. This will be my first fight fielding custodians. What should I watch for as a newb?
7. Other pointers?

Celerior wrote:
Questions:
1. Is Victor of the Blood Games worthwhile on my lead warlord biker(s), or should I just save a point or two for command rerolls? An opponent of mine took VotBG on his lead 3++ warlord in a recent tournament game - I took him out with hellfire shells and flakk missiles, bypassing both. In what matchups should I go for VotBG?
2. Suppose you're facing this with a custodes biker spam list. Say with a knight and IG Cp battery. How do you deal with my list? What do you fear and target early?
3. What should I NOT assault with my bikers? What has been capable of withstanding your bikers' assault?
4. How have your shield-captains fared against demon princes?
5. Do your opponents tend to fear biker captains? Most of the point is to draw fire away from my devastators, mortars, and NOVA engineer units, and then tank all day.
6. This will be my first fight fielding custodians. What should I watch for as a newb?
7. Other pointers?

1. VotBG is a must if you want your warlord to go tanking the enemy all day (though be careful of those times when you send your shield captain to tank everything but immediately go down because you rolled triple 1 for saves and rolled a 1 and a 2 for CP re-roll and VotBG: this is something that did happen to me).
2. The Mortar teams, the Devastators and the Captains would be my targets if I went up against you; keep your Devastators and Mortars hunkered down in the back field and use your Captains to draw people away from parts of the board or possibly to scare them away from an area (depending on how aggressive your opponent is).
3. Anything that is Super tough, see: Primarchs, DeathGuard, Nurgle, Imperial Knights, etc. Don't let your bikes get bogged down, try to charge things you know you'll kill in a round or 2 (unless your charging a tank to stop it from shooting).
4. Normal DPs can be taken by a Captain or 2 but be careful of Tzeentch/DeathGuard DPs because they'll tank a Captain for a few turns.
5. Everyone fears Bike Captains but some people react to that fear by throwing everything they have at them and others try to bog the Captains down and focus on something else.
6. Watch out for mortal wound factories like Psyker armies and DeathGuard as well as Knight armies that can ignore wounds, squeeze you to death and explode in your face. Mortal wounds are the death of a Custodes army.
7. Be the most agressive with your warlord since it doesn't matter if he dies.

Good luck!

1. Is Victor of the Blood Games worthwhile on my lead warlord biker(s), or should I just save a point or two for command rerolls? An opponent of mine took VotBG on his lead 3++ warlord in a recent tournament game - I took him out with hellfire shells and flakk missiles, bypassing both. In what matchups should I go for VotBG?

It is worth if you have a good number of command points to start the game after you have paid for relics and pre-game stratagems (say at least 8).

2. Suppose you're facing this with a custodes biker spam list. Say with a knight and IG Cp battery. How do you deal with my list? What do you fear and target early?

Focus on killing the Knight first but don't unnecessarily suicide units to do so.

3a. What should I NOT assault with my bikers?

Super killy overwatch mostly like Yhvarra and Knight super flamer.


3b. What has been capable of withstanding your bikers' assault?

Knights and some vehicles mostly.


4. How have your shield-captains fared against demon princes?

Make sure you charge them - use Stooping Dive if you have to.

5. Do your opponents tend to fear biker captains? Most of the point is to draw fire away from my devastators, mortars, and NOVA engineer units, and then tank all day.

Depends on the army really I say.

As someone that is building a Knight + bike spam army I say your main target should be the bikes.

Its going to take a lot of firepower to get the Knight down (esp if it gets a 3++ from WL+Strat) and that buys the time for all the bikes to close the distance and inflict their damage.
And runaway bike units are going to do a lot more then a Knight can do per turn.

You have a lot of CP so VotBG can be nice. I use it in matchups where I expect my captains to operate alone and draw lots of attention. Which for your list is probably every game?
If you make a Company Commander your warlord for Grand Strategist you can actually try to regain the CP spend on VotBG since it is done during deployment.

As said be careful with charging stuff like Knight and Primarchs. While bike spam armies can try to overwhelm these targets you won't have the volume of attacks for it. (a captain being almost double the cost of a normal bike but with only 1 attack more).

 Ordana wrote:
As someone that is building a Knight + bike spam army I say your main target should be the bikes.

Its going to take a lot of firepower to get the Knight down (esp if it gets a 3++ from WL+Strat) and that buys the time for all the bikes to close the distance and inflict their damage.
And runaway bike units are going to do a lot more then a Knight can do per turn.

You have a lot of CP so VotBG can be nice. I use it in matchups where I expect my captains to operate alone and draw lots of attention. Which for your list is probably every game?
If you make a Company Commander your warlord for Grand Strategist you can actually try to regain the CP spend on VotBG since it is done during deployment.

As said be careful with charging stuff like Knight and Primarchs. While bike spam armies can try to overwhelm these targets you won't have the volume of attacks for it. (a captain being almost double the cost of a normal bike but with only 1 attack more).

this BTW is why I think Bike Captains are over rated. the additional attacks normal bikes have should not be dismissed lightly.

Yeah regular bikes are definitely stronger. They’re just harder to fit into non-AC armies because a Custodes Outrider is most of your list (and a Patrol isn’t all that much cheaper).

meleti wrote:
Yeah regular bikes are definitely stronger. They’re just harder to fit into non-AC armies because a Custodes Outrider is most of your list (and a Patrol isn’t all that much cheaper).

which is honestly why I think they need to do away with supreme command detachments. 8th edition is stuck with em and I have a hunch we're not apt to see that change with 9th. but if the various tounries started saying "supreme command detachments are not accepted as valid here" it'd proably be a good thing

Could be a beta rule for matched play specifically. They aren't adverse to going in and tweaking one gameplay mode.

If GW gets rid of the supreme command detachment for matched play it’d only be a good thing. TOs can ban it as well.

What is the best mono Custodes list that doesn't spam bikes (a unit or two is ok)

Obviously not for a hyper competitive environment (most pickup games here are going for the win but there isn't the extreme hyper min maxing of guard battalions for all etc)

Min units of SS Guard? Is there value in going heavy on Allarus and splitting them or is that just entertaining jank?

Keep in mind it doesn't have to be very strong, more a thought experiment trying to make the most of a tough situation.

 Eldarain wrote:
What is the best mono Custodes list that doesn't spam bikes (a unit or two is ok)

Obviously not for a hyper competitive environment (most pickup games here are going for the win but there isn't the extreme hyper min maxing of guard battalions for all etc)

Min units of SS Guard? Is there value in going heavy on Allarus and splitting them or is that just entertaining jank?

Keep in mind it doesn't have to be very strong, more a thought experiment trying to make the most of a tough situation.

You don't need a lot of Storm Shields. I've done 3 units of 4 dudes, and that's 3 Spears and 1 Sword/Shield. It does pretty good.

 Primark G wrote:
If GW gets rid of the supreme command detachment for matched play it’d only be a good thing. TOs can ban it as well.

might be something to write GW about, as well as message the folks who manage the various tournment types.

 Eldarain wrote:
What is the best mono Custodes list that doesn't spam bikes (a unit or two is ok)

Obviously not for a hyper competitive environment (most pickup games here are going for the win but there isn't the extreme hyper min maxing of guard battalions for all etc)

Min units of SS Guard? Is there value in going heavy on Allarus and splitting them or is that just entertaining jank?

Keep in mind it doesn't have to be very strong, more a thought experiment trying to make the most of a tough situation.

A few min squads for objectives. prob 1 SS in them. A big squad to teleport and some Allarus probably. Or scrap the big squad and bring more Allarus.

I agree that supreme command detachments are pretty lame. This will be my first time fielding one.

Bike captains don't make sense next to regular bikers when it comes to damage output, but on the other hand with 7 wounds, the character rule, and a 3++, bike captains have well over twice the survivability of regular praetors.

Compared against vertus praetors, captains do less damage. But compared to other options in other codices in their roles, they're hopefully going to be worth their points. For example, suppose I'm trying to hunt down my opponent's pesky engineer rangers. Those hurricane bolters will force my opponent to spend a command point on the alaitoc stratagem, and then the other two bike captains can target a different unit, and I can throw lasguns or mortars (hitting on 6es anyway) at the first engineer unit.

I see it like this.
If you want to spend 1000+ points bring an Outrider of bikes.
If you want to spend less bring a Supreme Command of bike captains.

And yes I would be totally fine with removing the Supreme Command detachment. Its only use is to bring abusive HQ units without paying a tax of other units.

So I placed an order for an Achillus Dread yesterday, and while I was reading over the instructions online it occurred to me that it'd be pretty easy to just magentise the spear so I could run him as an Exemplar Dread if I wanted to. The Exemplar seems to be a bit forgotten-about, probably due to him lacking a model. Looks like a decent piece of kit, 210 points basic, but can take Heavy Flamers or Plasma Ejectors, as well as a Las Pulsar for a bit of anti-tank.

Is he worth it at all? 280pts gets me a Plasma Ejector and Las Pulsar for 2D3 S9 shots, but then again, I could pay 30pts more and get a twin-Illiastus Telemon.

I'd say wait for the IA book before making any rash decisions. How good are you at magnetizing?

I've already got a FW Custodes Contemptor, they have inbuilt recesses in the arm joints for sticking a magnet in, no need for drilling.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:I'd say wait for the IA book before making any rash decisions. How good are you at magnetizing?

Pretty good, I've magnetised a variety of things from Combi-Weapons to Reaver Titans.

mrhappyface wrote:I've already got a FW Custodes Contemptor, they have inbuilt recesses in the arm joints for sticking a magnet in, no need for drilling.

Even better, that's great to hear Still unsure about the Exemplar however.

 mrhappyface wrote:
I've already got a FW Custodes Contemptor, they have inbuilt recesses in the arm joints for sticking a magnet in, no need for drilling.

Thats good to know, how big are the magnets? Is the same true of the telemon?

Meatgrinder wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
I've already got a FW Custodes Contemptor, they have inbuilt recesses in the arm joints for sticking a magnet in, no need for drilling.

Thats good to know, how big are the magnets? Is the same true of the telemon?

I've used 5mm but there's space for a 6mm I reckon and, yes, the Telemon has the same spaces for magnets.

Meatgrinder wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
I've already got a FW Custodes Contemptor, they have inbuilt recesses in the arm joints for sticking a magnet in, no need for drilling.

Thats good to know, how big are the magnets? Is the same true of the telemon?

Yes there is, I put mine together using 6mm magnets last night. They've put holes slightly bigger than 6mm on the arms (where the weapon part purchased joins to the base kit above the elbow) and on the missile pod on top. However I like to magnetise my bigger humanoid models at the waist as well, so had to drill a hole into the ball joint there.

You could probably do with far smaller magnets as there's not much weight for them to bear, but 6mm fits quite conveniently.

 Valkyrie wrote:

Is he worth it at all? 280pts gets me a Plasma Ejector and Las Pulsar for 2D3 S9 shots, but then again, I could pay 30pts more and get a twin-Illiastus Telemon.

Double Iliastus Telemon is the more shooty-killy choice while being a lot more survivable. That being said, the Telemon will still go down if focused and benefits greatly from a Vexilus Praetor (carrying a Magnifica) babysitter.

Though I am playing Custodes with IG most of the time, I am starting to feel the burn out. IG as allies, being a CP farm, are simply not exciting. As such, I tried to play most games solo Custodes and it was a blast.

Seeing as CP farming may take a hit in the big FAQ, what do you guys think is a good combination for Custodes? Play them solo with their FW units? Assassins? IK? Something to spice things up without sacrificing too much of power.

 Trade_Prince wrote:
Though I am playing Custodes with IG most of the time, I am starting to feel the burn out. IG as allies, being a CP farm, are simply not exciting. As such, I tried to play most games solo Custodes and it was a blast.

Seeing as CP farming may take a hit in the big FAQ, what do you guys think is a good combination for Custodes? Play them solo with their FW units? Assassins? IK? Something to spice things up without sacrificing too much of power.

I do SoB for my CP, and b.c i like them better, sure they are double the points, but they are more fun!

I'm actually wondering if custodes and space wolves might work together alright, I don't expect it to be a power combo but could be a fun intreasting thing. Properio Redux!

For fun you can do whatever you want.

For competitive. I don't see how SW's complement Custodes. They don't provide much to mitigate Custodes weaknesses.

 Ordana wrote:
For fun you can do whatever you want.

For competitive. I don't see how SW's complement Custodes. They don't provide much to mitigate Custodes weaknesses.

yeah thats what I'm thinking, although if they don't patch choser of the slain a rune priest to escort your main force could be REALLY good.

It'd be really bloody good in a meta that has a lot of GSC and Daemons. But do you want to pay the extra points for a Rune Priest and scouts just in case you come up against one of the above mentioned?

 mrhappyface wrote:
It'd be really bloody good in a meta that has a lot of GSC and Daemons. But do you want to pay the extra points for a Rune Priest and scouts just in case you come up against one of the above mentioned?

Space Wolves scouts are elites so even worse

 Ordana wrote:
For fun you can do whatever you want.

For competitive. I don't see how SW's complement Custodes. They don't provide much to mitigate Custodes weaknesses.

Wolves are competing with blood angels, not custodes.

Custodes are out of cycle as they match up worse against knights than smash captains do, though some people are still making them work at the competitive level.

stratigo wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
For fun you can do whatever you want.

For competitive. I don't see how SW's complement Custodes. They don't provide much to mitigate Custodes weaknesses.

Wolves are competing with blood angels, not custodes.

Custodes are out of cycle as they match up worse against knights than smash captains do, though some people are still making them work at the competitive level.

SW\s cant compete with BA.
No 3d6 charge, no extra attacks, no ignore overwatch no redeploy and no normal scouts.

Custodes need help killing Knights that is true. But I still like a Custodes outrider detachment and dropped my BA detachment for a Castellan to help with Knights and provide long range firepower
Custodes outrider + IG battery + Knight.

Sadly havn't had a chance to try it out against a Knight list tho.

Ignoring Overwatch is very overrated and only necessary for the Flamer knight which, surprise surprise, gets no use for the most part.

stratigo wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
For fun you can do whatever you want.

For competitive. I don't see how SW's complement Custodes. They don't provide much to mitigate Custodes weaknesses.

Wolves are competing with blood angels, not custodes.

Custodes are out of cycle as they match up worse against knights than smash captains do, though some people are still making them work at the competitive level.

no one ever said competing with custodes, they said COMPLIMENTING Custodes.

I'm still EXTREMELY happy with my admech battalion. The arquebus snipe out important heroes, the dunecrawler(s) provide some much needed high damage. They lack the CP farm abilities, but I have a strong feeling theyre looking at changing those items anyway.

BrianDavion wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
For fun you can do whatever you want.

For competitive. I don't see how SW's complement Custodes. They don't provide much to mitigate Custodes weaknesses.

Wolves are competing with blood angels, not custodes.

Custodes are out of cycle as they match up worse against knights than smash captains do, though some people are still making them work at the competitive level.

no one ever said competing with custodes, they said COMPLIMENTING Custodes.

XD I was obviously too tired when I read that

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Ignoring Overwatch is very overrated and only necessary for the Flamer knight which, surprise surprise, gets no use for the most part.

Ignoring Overwatch is very useful; I wish I'd had that ability when I charged my Shield Captain into Shadowsword (I was throwing everything at it and thought the Captain would be able to soak up the damage with a re-rollable 3++) only for him to be vaporised by defensive gunners.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Ignoring Overwatch is very overrated and only necessary for the Flamer knight which, surprise surprise, gets no use for the most part.

Ignoring Overwatch is very useful; I wish I'd had that ability when I charged my Shield Captain into Shadowsword (I was throwing everything at it and thought the Captain would be able to soak up the damage with a re-rollable 3++) only for him to be vaporised by defensive gunners.

So something bad happens once? I think I'll take my chances on my odds.

 Ordana wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
For fun you can do whatever you want.

For competitive. I don't see how SW's complement Custodes. They don't provide much to mitigate Custodes weaknesses.

Wolves are competing with blood angels, not custodes.

Custodes are out of cycle as they match up worse against knights than smash captains do, though some people are still making them work at the competitive level.

SW\s cant compete with BA.
No 3d6 charge, no extra attacks, no ignore overwatch no redeploy and no normal scouts.

Custodes need help killing Knights that is true. But I still like a Custodes outrider detachment and dropped my BA detachment for a Castellan to help with Knights and provide long range firepower
Custodes outrider + IG battery + Knight.

Sadly havn't had a chance to try it out against a Knight list tho.

actually space wolves do have ignore over watch to a degree. heroic interventions are NOT subject to over watch.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
For fun you can do whatever you want.

For competitive. I don't see how SW's complement Custodes. They don't provide much to mitigate Custodes weaknesses.

Wolves are competing with blood angels, not custodes.

Custodes are out of cycle as they match up worse against knights than smash captains do, though some people are still making them work at the competitive level.

SW\s cant compete with BA.
No 3d6 charge, no extra attacks, no ignore overwatch no redeploy and no normal scouts.

Custodes need help killing Knights that is true. But I still like a Custodes outrider detachment and dropped my BA detachment for a Castellan to help with Knights and provide long range firepower
Custodes outrider + IG battery + Knight.

Sadly havn't had a chance to try it out against a Knight list tho.

actually space wolves do have ignore over watch to a degree. heroic interventions are NOT subject to over watch.

I think opponent will move stuff you want to ignore away or shoot you first rather than let that easily happen

Also if you go within 6" but don't charge one could say overwatch did it's job already...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Ignoring Overwatch is very overrated and only necessary for the Flamer knight which, surprise surprise, gets no use for the most part.

Ignoring Overwatch is very useful; I wish I'd had that ability when I charged my Shield Captain into Shadowsword (I was throwing everything at it and thought the Captain would be able to soak up the damage with a re-rollable 3++) only for him to be vaporised by defensive gunners.

So something bad happens once? I think I'll take my chances on my odds.

The point was that there are things in this game that have Overwatch that is almost as powerful as their shooting (IG tanks with defensive gunners, anything Tau, flamers, etc.); it would be best to have some way of ignoring such an overwatch.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Ignoring Overwatch is very overrated and only necessary for the Flamer knight which, surprise surprise, gets no use for the most part.

Have fun charging a Hemlock without ignore overwatch.

 Ordana wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Ignoring Overwatch is very overrated and only necessary for the Flamer knight which, surprise surprise, gets no use for the most part.

Have fun charging a Hemlock without ignore overwatch.

We've already done the math that says a 3++/5+++ Shield Captain on a bike can probably survive the overwatch from a Valiant. Victor of the Blood Games+a command re-roll means you have a decent chance of taking no wounds from a Hemlock.

Had a game yesterday with my Custodes/AdMEch Stygies list and testet the Telemon. Not bad not bad. I was running a Knight Crusader beforehand but since its pretty obvious that CP farming will get nerfed and I practice for the Alliance Open GT where they already nerfed CP farming, the Knight got kicked out of the list because its way too CP intense. Now. I tested the Telemon dropping in with the 20 shots S7. He killed 2 units of Hive Guard pretty handily (over 2 turns) but the S7 sucks against the big bugs. Also -1 is just crap. So I was thinking taking the S8 weapon. Anyone got experience with it? The Telemon is basically my "drop in and kill what I cant get to in melee" unit since I run a lot of infiltrating E-Priests and Dragoons with my Custodes^^

Iago40k wrote:
Had a game yesterday with my Custodes/AdMEch Stygies list and testet the Telemon. Not bad not bad. I was running a Knight Crusader beforehand but since its pretty obvious that CP farming will get nerfed and I practice for the Alliance Open GT where they already nerfed CP farming, the Knight got kicked out of the list because its way too CP intense. Now. I tested the Telemon dropping in with the 20 shots S7. He killed 2 units of Hive Guard pretty handily (over 2 turns) but the S7 sucks against the big bugs. Also -1 is just crap. So I was thinking taking the S8 weapon. Anyone got experience with it? The Telemon is basically my "drop in and kill what I cant get to in melee" unit since I run a lot of infiltrating E-Priests and Dragoons with my Custodes^^

I haven't used twin illastrus culverins on the telemon however I have used the calladius grav tank and had good success with that, which is 5 points more expensive and much less survivable (not to mention less shots) than a telemon with dual culverin so I can only imagine good things

Bananarama wrote:

Iago40k wrote:
Had a game yesterday with my Custodes/AdMEch Stygies list and testet the Telemon. Not bad not bad. I was running a Knight Crusader beforehand but since its pretty obvious that CP farming will get nerfed and I practice for the Alliance Open GT where they already nerfed CP farming, the Knight got kicked out of the list because its way too CP intense. Now. I tested the Telemon dropping in with the 20 shots S7. He killed 2 units of Hive Guard pretty handily (over 2 turns) but the S7 sucks against the big bugs. Also -1 is just crap. So I was thinking taking the S8 weapon. Anyone got experience with it? The Telemon is basically my "drop in and kill what I cant get to in melee" unit since I run a lot of infiltrating E-Priests and Dragoons with my Custodes^^

I haven't used twin illastrus culverins on the telemon however I have used the calladius grav tank and had good success with that, which is 5 points more expensive and much less survivable (not to mention less shots) than a telemon with dual culverin so I can only imagine good things

Yeah they rock - S8 is such an important stat point vs 7, that and the extra AP more than make up for the reduced amount of shots, at a cheaper point cost for some reason. The Telemon is a beast of a shooty platform that can only really be efficiently neutered by tarpitting - the T8 2+ 4++ and a -1 banner to hit really limits any shooting directed at thim. When you're playing pure Custodes, forcing enemies to come to you is always a good thing. A must take in any pure Custodes force that is looking to be a true TAC list IMO.

One note on tarpitting - a shooty Telemon is a great candidate for the Unflinching stratagem. All that dakka hitting on 5s for overwatch can dissuade pretty much anything aside from a big infantry mob. On my last game my DG/Nurgle opponent attempted to charge mine with a couple of plague drones and a bloat-drone. After I used the stratagem and the plague drones got pasted he quickly reconsidered sending in the bloat drone.

the problem with the telemon is that is still is a big target. A smash captain will kill it. Any army with a castellan will probably kill it. I imagine a eldar based army will probably kill it. All within a turn or two.

stratigo wrote:
the problem with the telemon is that is still is a big target. A smash captain will kill it. Any army with a castellan will probably kill it. I imagine a eldar based army will probably kill it. All within a turn or two.

Deep strike it. Bring it in t1 whether you go first or second and let it do its work.

Meatgrinder wrote:

stratigo wrote:
the problem with the telemon is that is still is a big target. A smash captain will kill it. Any army with a castellan will probably kill it. I imagine a eldar based army will probably kill it. All within a turn or two.

Deep strike it. Bring it in t1 whether you go first or second and let it do its work.

So I just did the math and then accidentally erased the post, but the answer is this:

Optimized Captain Slamguinus 1-shots a Telemon.

Optimized Castellan 1-shots a Telemon.

'Average' Slamguinus or the -1 to Hit Flag means it takes 2 rounds to kill the Telemon. So he won't get to do much before kaboom.

Audustum wrote:

Meatgrinder wrote:

stratigo wrote:
the problem with the telemon is that is still is a big target. A smash captain will kill it. Any army with a castellan will probably kill it. I imagine a eldar based army will probably kill it. All within a turn or two.

Deep strike it. Bring it in t1 whether you go first or second and let it do its work.

So I just did the math and then accidentally erased the post, but the answer is this:

Optimized Captain Slamguinus 1-shots a Telemon.

Optimized Castellan 1-shots a Telemon.

'Average' Slamguinus or the -1 to Hit Flag means it takes 2 rounds to kill the Telemon. So he won't get to do much before kaboom.

Thats why you keep him in reserve, drop him in your deployment t1, open up on your priority targets. If you go second his smashcaptains will either have to reserve until t2, reducing their effectiveness, or redirect into other targets. Same goes for the castellan, they'll have to hit another target. Either way you're getting at least one round of shooting off with it.

The slam captain won’t always be optimized, but the castellan will

Meatgrinder wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Meatgrinder wrote:

stratigo wrote:
the problem with the telemon is that is still is a big target. A smash captain will kill it. Any army with a castellan will probably kill it. I imagine a eldar based army will probably kill it. All within a turn or two.

Deep strike it. Bring it in t1 whether you go first or second and let it do its work.

So I just did the math and then accidentally erased the post, but the answer is this:

Optimized Captain Slamguinus 1-shots a Telemon.

Optimized Castellan 1-shots a Telemon.

'Average' Slamguinus or the -1 to Hit Flag means it takes 2 rounds to kill the Telemon. So he won't get to do much before kaboom.

Thats why you keep him in reserve, drop him in your deployment t1, open up on your priority targets. If you go second his smashcaptains will either have to reserve until t2, reducing their effectiveness, or redirect into other targets. Same goes for the castellan, they'll have to hit another target. Either way you're getting at least one round of shooting off with it.

Slamguinus is waiting till T2 anyway because of the beta reserves rule. He also doesn't mind staying in reserve for as long as your Telemon does cause he's less than half the Telemon's cost. He's already helping just by making you hide.

The Castellan really doesn't care if you shoot him first. He's VERY unlikely to even be bracketed by the Telemon's shooting and has Machine Spirit Resurgent for 1CP even if he is.

Ultimately, it's not really cost effective to drop 300+ points on a model for 1-2 rounds of shooting unless it's some REALLY good shooting (which he's only slightly above mid-tier).

stratigo wrote:
The slam captain won’t always be optimized, but the castellan will

not really as an optimzied castellan requires you to be running a specific knight house hold. and not everyone will choose to do that

BrianDavion wrote:

stratigo wrote:
The slam captain won’t always be optimized, but the castellan will

not really as an optimzied castellan requires you to be running a specific knight house hold. and not everyone will choose to do that

Every list that remotely matter will have their Castellan as Raven because it literally doubles its firepower through 1 stratagem.

The main problem is that if the Telemon was super good, you’d bring three of them. It’s a model that works better in mass

That said we are, as usual, falling into the trap of myopic focus on the very best lists in the game, and most games it’s going to work out fine as part of the army

But competetively, its natural predator is going to wreck it for less than half the price. Slam captains suppress the use of heavy armor. You either rock cheap gun platforms like ravagers or go straight to super heavies. The knight meta make that even tougher as every army is gearing to take out 1 to 4 knights in a game at the competetive level. The telemon just isn’t as hard a target as a knight

 Ordana wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

stratigo wrote:
The slam captain won’t always be optimized, but the castellan will

not really as an optimzied castellan requires you to be running a specific knight house hold. and not everyone will choose to do that

Every list that remotely matter will have their Castellan as Raven because it literally doubles its firepower through 1 stratagem.

Except not everyone runs a list like that. yes the WAAC types might but thats not every list.

Re a Slam Captain or a Castellan, you could say the same thing about pretty much anything in the game.

Comparing anything Custodes have to tryhard WAAC netlists spamming OP units that are 99 percent likely to be nerfed in the next 2 weeks has no relevance unless you frequent GTs *puke*, or have a particularly toxic local community who play to the same loft standards. Certainly not a good measure of general effectiveness.

Funnily enough most people in the real world like to play their models as they are painted, in armies that make sense thematically and are a fair matchup vs their opponent. I pity those poor sods who don't.

Spartacus wrote:
Re a Slam Captain or a Castellan, you could say the same thing about pretty much anything in the game.

No, you really can't. Almost any other Imperial Knight sporting the Ion Bulwark trait will fair significantly better. Artillery squads are also a good alternative because they're generally lower cost than even Captain Slammy so they aren't worth his time or capable of playing LoS shenanigans on the Castellan (and also being low point value and thus not worth his time).

Comparing anything Custodes have to tryhard WAAC netlists spamming OP units that are 99 percent likely to be nerfed in the next 2 weeks has no relevance unless you frequent GTs *puke*, or have a particularly toxic local community who play to the same loft standards. Certainly not a good measure of general effectiveness.

Funnily enough most people in the real world like to play their models as they are painted, in armies that make sense thematically and are a fair matchup vs their opponent. I pity those poor sods who don't.

Well aren't you a cheery, accepting sort of person. I hope others are more kind to your favored modes of play than you are to theirs. Generally, tactical advice is given on the consideration that your opponent is running an 'optimal' list and making minimal mistakes. This is because if you are facing opponents with unoptimized lists and/or who make many mistakes, you can basically work around any deficiency in your own list with pure skill (i.e. raise your skill ceiling to overcome the gap). When facing optimal lists and skilled opponents, however, you need to bring tools that can get their value even against the opponent's preparation. That is something people might need help analyzing and what we can contribute as fellow players in a tactical replay without having to analyze a batrep in order to aid a player in increasing his/her skill ceiling.

Audustum wrote:

Spartacus wrote:
Re a Slam Captain or a Castellan, you could say the same thing about pretty much anything in the game.

No, you really can't. Almost any other Imperial Knight sporting the Ion Bulwark trait will fair significantly better. Artillery squads are also a good alternative because they're generally lower cost than even Captain Slammy so they aren't worth his time or capable of playing LoS shenanigans on the Castellan (and also being low point value and thus not worth his time).

Comparing anything Custodes have to tryhard WAAC netlists spamming OP units that are 99 percent likely to be nerfed in the next 2 weeks has no relevance unless you frequent GTs *puke*, or have a particularly toxic local community who play to the same loft standards. Certainly not a good measure of general effectiveness.

Funnily enough most people in the real world like to play their models as they are painted, in armies that make sense thematically and are a fair matchup vs their opponent. I pity those poor sods who don't.

Well aren't you a cheery, accepting sort of person. I hope others are more kind to your favored modes of play than you are to theirs. Generally, tactical advice is given on the consideration that your opponent is running an 'optimal' list and making minimal mistakes. This is because if you are facing opponents with unoptimized lists and/or who make many mistakes, you can basically work around any deficiency in your own list with pure skill (i.e. raise your skill ceiling to overcome the gap). When facing optimal lists and skilled opponents, however, you need to bring tools that can get their value even against the opponent's preparation. That is something people might need help analyzing and what we can contribute as fellow players in a tactical replay without having to analyze a batrep in order to aid a player in increasing his/her skill ceiling.

no he's absolutely right, this kind of rediculas over the top stuff isn't the way most people play. sure it's worth ntoing that someone could take over powered unit X and that it's worth pondering ways to handle it, but a statement like "EVERYONE WILL RUN X THIS WAY" is silly.

Audustum wrote:

Spartacus wrote:
Re a Slam Captain or a Castellan, you could say the same thing about pretty much anything in the game.

No, you really can't. Almost any other Imperial Knight sporting the Ion Bulwark trait will fair significantly better. Artillery squads are also a good alternative because they're generally lower cost than even Captain Slammy so they aren't worth his time or capable of playing LoS shenanigans on the Castellan (and also being low point value and thus not worth his time).

Comparing anything Custodes have to tryhard WAAC netlists spamming OP units that are 99 percent likely to be nerfed in the next 2 weeks has no relevance unless you frequent GTs *puke*, or have a particularly toxic local community who play to the same loft standards. Certainly not a good measure of general effectiveness.

Funnily enough most people in the real world like to play their models as they are painted, in armies that make sense thematically and are a fair matchup vs their opponent. I pity those poor sods who don't.

Well aren't you a cheery, accepting sort of person. I hope others are more kind to your favored modes of play than you are to theirs. Generally, tactical advice is given on the consideration that your opponent is running an 'optimal' list and making minimal mistakes. This is because if you are facing opponents with unoptimized lists and/or who make many mistakes, you can basically work around any deficiency in your own list with pure skill (i.e. raise your skill ceiling to overcome the gap). When facing optimal lists and skilled opponents, however, you need to bring tools that can get their value even against the opponent's preparation. That is something people might need help analyzing and what we can contribute as fellow players in a tactical replay without having to analyze a batrep in order to aid a player in increasing his/her skill ceiling.

With that attitude, I don't think Custodes are the best choice for your needs. Better everyone just bring a Castellan, 2 Slam Captains and a Catachan Brigade to play it safe. That's the epitome of internet tactical analysis right now.

-----

Talking seriously though, what else would you recommend for Custodes against this stuff if we need to be so worried about it? If Slammy isn't coming in to kill a 310 point Telemon hes coming in to kill a 270 point Vertus Praetor Squad instead. Its still gonna be a massive win for your opponent either way, and thats the only other really solid unit option for Custodes. Your post is only useful in proving that Custodes are not top dog in the power rankings at the moment, which probably 90% of people here already know.

Audustum wrote:
Slamguinus is waiting till T2 anyway because of the beta reserves rule. He also doesn't mind staying in reserve for as long as your Telemon does cause he's less than half the Telemon's cost. He's already helping just by making you hide.

Slamquinus can come DS'ing where-ever on T1 if he wants. There's the 1CP strategem that allows him to reposition himself like he were DS'ing. That's why putting Telemon on reserve is a way to ensure he survives. If he starts on table and you go 2nd slamquinus will DZ, charge and kill him.

If you can effect things from your DZ then reserve and deep strike can be handy. Going against dark eldars for example you can expect ravagers to often start in reserve to ensure they don't get pasted before shooting.

Bringing Slamguinius and a Knight (as combo) to this debate is really unnecessary since the combo will get nerfed via FAQ. Plus, the Telemon will always deliver at least once since you will put it into deepstrike reserve. So thanks for the feedback, I think I wil order one of them after the FAQ dropped.

BrianDavion wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Spartacus wrote:
Re a Slam Captain or a Castellan, you could say the same thing about pretty much anything in the game.

No, you really can't. Almost any other Imperial Knight sporting the Ion Bulwark trait will fair significantly better. Artillery squads are also a good alternative because they're generally lower cost than even Captain Slammy so they aren't worth his time or capable of playing LoS shenanigans on the Castellan (and also being low point value and thus not worth his time).

Comparing anything Custodes have to tryhard WAAC netlists spamming OP units that are 99 percent likely to be nerfed in the next 2 weeks has no relevance unless you frequent GTs *puke*, or have a particularly toxic local community who play to the same loft standards. Certainly not a good measure of general effectiveness.

Funnily enough most people in the real world like to play their models as they are painted, in armies that make sense thematically and are a fair matchup vs their opponent. I pity those poor sods who don't.

Well aren't you a cheery, accepting sort of person. I hope others are more kind to your favored modes of play than you are to theirs. Generally, tactical advice is given on the consideration that your opponent is running an 'optimal' list and making minimal mistakes. This is because if you are facing opponents with unoptimized lists and/or who make many mistakes, you can basically work around any deficiency in your own list with pure skill (i.e. raise your skill ceiling to overcome the gap). When facing optimal lists and skilled opponents, however, you need to bring tools that can get their value even against the opponent's preparation. That is something people might need help analyzing and what we can contribute as fellow players in a tactical replay without having to analyze a batrep in order to aid a player in increasing his/her skill ceiling.

no he's absolutely right, this kind of rediculas over the top stuff isn't the way most people play. sure it's worth ntoing that someone could take over powered unit X and that it's worth pondering ways to handle it, but a statement like "EVERYONE WILL RUN X THIS WAY" is silly.

This is simply something we don't know and can't prove in either direction. There is no stat for 'garage games' vs. 'toutnament games' and what was fielded in each. I can say at last NOVA, for example, even the mid and low tier tables were fielding Dominus class Knights and groups of Knights everywhere. It's just a stat in a void though.

Basically, we DON'T actually know it's not how most people play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spartacus wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Spartacus wrote:
Re a Slam Captain or a Castellan, you could say the same thing about pretty much anything in the game.

No, you really can't. Almost any other Imperial Knight sporting the Ion Bulwark trait will fair significantly better. Artillery squads are also a good alternative because they're generally lower cost than even Captain Slammy so they aren't worth his time or capable of playing LoS shenanigans on the Castellan (and also being low point value and thus not worth his time).

Comparing anything Custodes have to tryhard WAAC netlists spamming OP units that are 99 percent likely to be nerfed in the next 2 weeks has no relevance unless you frequent GTs *puke*, or have a particularly toxic local community who play to the same loft standards. Certainly not a good measure of general effectiveness.

Funnily enough most people in the real world like to play their models as they are painted, in armies that make sense thematically and are a fair matchup vs their opponent. I pity those poor sods who don't.

Well aren't you a cheery, accepting sort of person. I hope others are more kind to your favored modes of play than you are to theirs. Generally, tactical advice is given on the consideration that your opponent is running an 'optimal' list and making minimal mistakes. This is because if you are facing opponents with unoptimized lists and/or who make many mistakes, you can basically work around any deficiency in your own list with pure skill (i.e. raise your skill ceiling to overcome the gap). When facing optimal lists and skilled opponents, however, you need to bring tools that can get their value even against the opponent's preparation. That is something people might need help analyzing and what we can contribute as fellow players in a tactical replay without having to analyze a batrep in order to aid a player in increasing his/her skill ceiling.

With that attitude, I don't think Custodes are the best choice for your needs. Better everyone just bring a Castellan, 2 Slam Captains and a Catachan Brigade to play it safe. That's the epitome of internet tactical analysis right now.

-----

Talking seriously though, what else would you recommend for Custodes against this stuff if we need to be so worried about it? If Slammy isn't coming in to kill a 310 point Telemon hes coming in to kill a 270 point Vertus Praetor Squad instead. Its still gonna be a massive win for your opponent either way, and thats the only other really solid unit option for Custodes. Your post is only useful in proving that Custodes are not top dog in the power rankings at the moment, which probably 90% of people here already know.

My post was not talking about "how do we counter X" it was in response to "how useful is a Telemon". The answer is: not super. It's a bit overpriced at the moment and needs to Hit harder or be more durable.

And no, Slamguinus doesn't kill the Preators nearly as bad as he wrecks the Telemon for two reasons: 1. They get to swing back before his second fight. 2. With the average Slamguinus doing 3 damage per wound, 2 damage gets lost on overkill Everytime he kills a Bike. To give you an idea, Slamguinus's first 7 attacks should average about 2.27 wounds. That kills 1 Bike (90 points, less than Slammy himself).

2 surviving Bikes average 2.88 return damage and have a 34% of killing Slamguinus outright, ish. With Overwatch it's between 35% and 40%. With his average wounds, Slammy isn't guaranteed to kill the two remaining Bikes on his turn. It actually makes charging the Bikes a dicey prospect for him that has to be carefully evaluated, unlike the Telemon.

A fun thing about this too is that the bigger you make the Bike squad the worse it is for Slammy too. He will only ever average that 1.5ish wounds, but each Bike you add on massively increases your odds of killing him before his second attack phase.

If you want advice on what to actually bring, you should look at the "Peace Through Dakka" list that made NOVA's top 10. It's literally just a AM CP ally and as many Jetbikes as you can cram into the points level from there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

Audustum wrote:
Slamguinus is waiting till T2 anyway because of the beta reserves rule. He also doesn't mind staying in reserve for as long as your Telemon does cause he's less than half the Telemon's cost. He's already helping just by making you hide.

Slamquinus can come DS'ing where-ever on T1 if he wants. There's the 1CP strategem that allows him to reposition himself like he were DS'ing. That's why putting Telemon on reserve is a way to ensure he survives. If he starts on table and you go 2nd slamquinus will DZ, charge and kill him.

If you can effect things from your DZ then reserve and deep strike can be handy. Going against dark eldars for example you can expect ravagers to often start in reserve to ensure they don't get pasted before shooting.

If you want to blow even more CP on him you might be able to swing him around T1, yeah, but if the big juicy target you want is in Deep Strike itself there is no reason to. He can just sit and wait for you.

No one disputed Telemon would get 1 turn of shooting if you Deep Strike it. The dispute was over whether that was actually useful OR worth the points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Iago40k wrote:
Bringing Slamguinius and a Knight (as combo) to this debate is really unnecessary since the combo will get nerfed via FAQ. Plus, the Telemon will always deliver at least once since you will put it into deepstrike reserve. So thanks for the feedback, I think I wil order one of them after the FAQ dropped.

I am far less sure than you. CP regen is on the chopping block for sure. I'm not as certain what they'll do about the other two (if anything, they will already be vastly weakened by loss of the big CP allies).

I was also bringing them up individually as threats, not as a combo.

That said, remember very much that our Telemon is in beta rules. He is ALSO capable of change before release.

Audustum wrote:


I am far less sure than you. CP regen is on the chopping block for sure. I'm not as certain what they'll do about the other two (if anything, they will already be vastly weakened by loss of the big CP allies).

I was also bringing them up individually as threats, not as a combo.

That said, remember very much that our Telemon is in beta rules. He is ALSO capable of change before release.

Well they can keep the Knight and the BA Captain as they are since they are far less likely to be comboed together if there arent 5000 CP to throw around. Thats the only thing that makes this list work.
And yes you are right, they can still change the Beta rules for the Telemon. I wait till the FAQ drops...as we all do I guess

Spartacus wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Spartacus wrote:
Re a Slam Captain or a Castellan, you could say the same thing about pretty much anything in the game.

No, you really can't. Almost any other Imperial Knight sporting the Ion Bulwark trait will fair significantly better. Artillery squads are also a good alternative because they're generally lower cost than even Captain Slammy so they aren't worth his time or capable of playing LoS shenanigans on the Castellan (and also being low point value and thus not worth his time).

Comparing anything Custodes have to tryhard WAAC netlists spamming OP units that are 99 percent likely to be nerfed in the next 2 weeks has no relevance unless you frequent GTs *puke*, or have a particularly toxic local community who play to the same loft standards. Certainly not a good measure of general effectiveness.

Funnily enough most people in the real world like to play their models as they are painted, in armies that make sense thematically and are a fair matchup vs their opponent. I pity those poor sods who don't.

Well aren't you a cheery, accepting sort of person. I hope others are more kind to your favored modes of play than you are to theirs. Generally, tactical advice is given on the consideration that your opponent is running an 'optimal' list and making minimal mistakes. This is because if you are facing opponents with unoptimized lists and/or who make many mistakes, you can basically work around any deficiency in your own list with pure skill (i.e. raise your skill ceiling to overcome the gap). When facing optimal lists and skilled opponents, however, you need to bring tools that can get their value even against the opponent's preparation. That is something people might need help analyzing and what we can contribute as fellow players in a tactical replay without having to analyze a batrep in order to aid a player in increasing his/her skill ceiling.

With that attitude, I don't think Custodes are the best choice for your needs. Better everyone just bring a Castellan, 2 Slam Captains and a Catachan Brigade to play it safe. That's the epitome of internet tactical analysis right now.

-----

Talking seriously though, what else would you recommend for Custodes against this stuff if we need to be so worried about it? If Slammy isn't coming in to kill a 310 point Telemon hes coming in to kill a 270 point Vertus Praetor Squad instead. Its still gonna be a massive win for your opponent either way, and thats the only other really solid unit option for Custodes. Your post is only useful in proving that Custodes are not top dog in the power rankings at the moment, which probably 90% of people here already know.

he has more trouble with the praetors, and the praetors significantly less trouble with him


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Iago40k wrote:

Audustum wrote:


I am far less sure than you. CP regen is on the chopping block for sure. I'm not as certain what they'll do about the other two (if anything, they will already be vastly weakened by loss of the big CP allies).

I was also bringing them up individually as threats, not as a combo.

That said, remember very much that our Telemon is in beta rules. He is ALSO capable of change before release.

Well they can keep the Knight and the BA Captain as they are since they are far less likely to be comboed together if there arent 5000 CP to throw around. Thats the only thing that makes this list work.
And yes you are right, they can still change the Beta rules for the Telemon. I wait till the FAQ drops...as we all do I guess

that's not true at all. Blood angels have farm abilities and scouts are cheap enough to spam. You could easily gather 10 CP (plus your 3) for use on slamguiniuous plus a farm. And then add a still effective castellan or another hard hitting option for an army. The farming now is excessive enough that you literally never run out of CPs, but ending the game with 20 more cps than you started just means you haven't had use out of any cp unspent. Using your last CPs on turn 5 before the game ends is equally CP efficient. The farmers will change, but the farming won't really.

I think the castellan will be further nerfed, but the slam captain is hard to nerf. He's too good, but only in that specific set of combos that a BA player gets and if you just start nerfing the captain or thunder hammers then you are hurting the people playing at the local club with the model they like.

What are people's opinions on the FW Contemptor-Achillus? I'm loving the look of the model but is it just straight-up outclassed by the Telemon? I don't play competitively but I'd like something that can run my mates' MCs through in CC without relying solely on bikes.

Iago40k wrote:
Bringing Slamguinius and a Knight (as combo) to this debate is really unnecessary since the combo will get nerfed via FAQ. Plus, the Telemon will always deliver at least once since you will put it into deepstrike reserve. So thanks for the feedback, I think I wil order one of them after the FAQ dropped.

You ASSUME it gets nerfed. GW doesn't care for balanced game so about only reason we might expect is nerf is GW figures it has sold enough of those so time to sell something else instead(which btw would likely not nerf it into balance but into level of uselessness, again fitting in GW's strategy)

tneva82 wrote:

Iago40k wrote:
Bringing Slamguinius and a Knight (as combo) to this debate is really unnecessary since the combo will get nerfed via FAQ. Plus, the Telemon will always deliver at least once since you will put it into deepstrike reserve. So thanks for the feedback, I think I wil order one of them after the FAQ dropped.

You ASSUME it gets nerfed. GW doesn't care for balanced game so about only reason we might expect is nerf is GW figures it has sold enough of those so time to sell something else instead(which btw would likely not nerf it into balance but into level of uselessness, again fitting in GW's strategy)

You, uh, don’t understand game design or how gw understands game design

stratigo wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Iago40k wrote:
Bringing Slamguinius and a Knight (as combo) to this debate is really unnecessary since the combo will get nerfed via FAQ. Plus, the Telemon will always deliver at least once since you will put it into deepstrike reserve. So thanks for the feedback, I think I wil order one of them after the FAQ dropped.

You ASSUME it gets nerfed. GW doesn't care for balanced game so about only reason we might expect is nerf is GW figures it has sold enough of those so time to sell something else instead(which btw would likely not nerf it into balance but into level of uselessness, again fitting in GW's strategy)

You, uh, don’t understand game design or how gw understands game design

You don’t understand that GW doesn’t understand game design.


Though to be fair I’m more inclined to go with incompetence rather than a devious plan on their part.

 Sandyman11 wrote:
What are people's opinions on the FW Contemptor-Achillus? I'm loving the look of the model but is it just straight-up outclassed by the Telemon? I don't play competitively but I'd like something that can run my mates' MCs through in CC without relying solely on bikes.

I have one half-assembled and it looks pretty good on paper. My tactic will be to FGLTC it in, get it in combat as quick as possible. The Lastrum Bolters are nice as well, 8x Heavy Bolter shots isn't to be ignored. It's only got 4 attacks though, so don't send it after swarms, and it helps if you can get a Captain in range for those re-rolls.

Spartacus wrote:
Re a Slam Captain or a Castellan, you could say the same thing about pretty much anything in the game.

Comparing anything Custodes have to tryhard WAAC netlists spamming OP units that are 99 percent likely to be nerfed in the next 2 weeks has no relevance unless you frequent GTs *puke*, or have a particularly toxic local community who play to the same loft standards. Certainly not a good measure of general effectiveness.

Funnily enough most people in the real world like to play their models as they are painted, in armies that make sense thematically and are a fair matchup vs their opponent. I pity those poor sods who don't.

I love when people come into threads discussing competitive warhammer and get offended when we discuss competitive warhammer. I also love how the attitude towards competitive events and 'toxic local community' is, in fact, horribly toxic.

For the record, comparing lists to the current top lists is really the only measure of effectiveness in a competitive environment. If you cant beat these lists, you cant expect to do well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sandyman11 wrote:
What are people's opinions on the FW Contemptor-Achillus? I'm loving the look of the model but is it just straight-up outclassed by the Telemon? I don't play competitively but I'd like something that can run my mates' MCs through in CC without relying solely on bikes.

Its just really expensive in its current iteration, all contemptors are. For the same role I'd be leaning more towards an armiger warglaive now that theyre much cheaper and have the two melee profiles. Yes the contemptor is better, but is it 80 points better?

The telemon is pretty good, but not amazingly so. I feel its definately more resonably priced than the contemptors.

 greyknight12 wrote:

stratigo wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Iago40k wrote:
Bringing Slamguinius and a Knight (as combo) to this debate is really unnecessary since the combo will get nerfed via FAQ. Plus, the Telemon will always deliver at least once since you will put it into deepstrike reserve. So thanks for the feedback, I think I wil order one of them after the FAQ dropped.

You ASSUME it gets nerfed. GW doesn't care for balanced game so about only reason we might expect is nerf is GW figures it has sold enough of those so time to sell something else instead(which btw would likely not nerf it into balance but into level of uselessness, again fitting in GW's strategy)

You, uh, don’t understand game design or how gw understands game design

You don’t understand that GW doesn’t understand game design.


Though to be fair I’m more inclined to go with incompetence rather than a devious plan on their part.

GW is neither so malicious or stupid as you assume. GW in fact does care about balance. It is why every major tournament is followed by rules addressing the primary issues revealed there. The problem is that they seem to be farming balance off on the public at large.

GW doesn't make something over powered and then nerf it later as a business practice. Primaris marines did not come out and be better than old marines. Indeed they are generally a worse choice. And you'd think the flagship product would be the OP one. It is not.

So we haven't had much discussion post FAQ. Is GW's change to Fly effecting anybody's decision making or are you still shaking things down about the same?

Audustum wrote:
So we haven't had much discussion post FAQ. Is GW's change to Fly effecting anybody's decision making or are you still shaking things down about the same?

With the large bases on the Jetbikes I really never found that I had much opportunity to jump over screening stuff that was positioned well, my regular Guard opponent has already learned that lesson. And what else are we gonna use right?

The going 2nd cover stratagem is golden (if you'll pardon the expression). Having 1+ armor saves on everything is sweet, depending on the board jetbikes aren't that easy to fit into cover while staying obscured, now you can just line them up at the front of your deployment zone to close that distance ASAP.

Spartacus wrote:

Audustum wrote:
So we haven't had much discussion post FAQ. Is GW's change to Fly effecting anybody's decision making or are you still shaking things down about the same?

With the large bases on the Jetbikes I really never found that I had much opportunity to jump over screening stuff that was positioned well, my regular Guard opponent has already learned that lesson. And what else are we gonna use right?

The going 2nd cover stratagem is golden (if you'll pardon the expression). Having 1+ armor saves on everything is sweet, depending on the board jetbikes aren't that easy to fit into cover while staying obscured, now you can just line them up at the front of your deployment zone to close that distance ASAP.

Agree to both points. Jetbikes are still the best and when you're dropping avg 5.2 guardsmen per bike with hurricane bolters there isn't much of a screen left to jump over. And layered on top of our -1 to hit bubble, 1+ saves are pretty clutch. The deepstrike beta rule doesn't hurt us at all.
My hope is that all the bandwagon praetor captain users go away so our normal bikes get spared the nerfbat come chapter approved.

So I’m pretty new to custodes. I originally wanted to include them in my nova list but wanted to primarily play guard(that’s been my army for 8 years). And so after doing some reading up went the cheese route to just include some shield captains.

Now that the tournament is over with and I’m back to casual play I’m slowly building up some detachments (other than 3 cheese shield caps on bikes). I’ve got 3 units of 3 custodian guard. Each with 1 sword/shield and 2 guys with spears. And then I got 1 dude with a vexilla.

The models that appeal to me the most though are the allarus terminatora. Are there and detachments to to use them effectively? They seem to have some awesome strats. How would you include them in a detachment? Also what’s everyone’s preference on squad size? Small units of 3 or a larger unit?

And before anyone says it, I already have bikes so I’m not interested in how much better they might be lol. This is more so for casual play but also trying to make the best of these models.

I appreciate any and all help! They are some expensive models so I want to figure out how I want to run them before I invest in anything more.

 tankboy145 wrote:
So I’m pretty new to custodes. I originally wanted to include them in my nova list but wanted to primarily play guard(that’s been my army for 8 years). And so after doing some reading up went the cheese route to just include some shield captains.

Now that the tournament is over with and I’m back to casual play I’m slowly building up some detachments (other than 3 cheese shield caps on bikes). I’ve got 3 units of 3 custodian guard. Each with 1 sword/shield and 2 guys with spears. And then I got 1 dude with a vexilla.

The models that appeal to me the most though are the allarus terminatora. Are there and detachments to to use them effectively? They seem to have some awesome strats. How would you include them in a detachment? Also what’s everyone’s preference on squad size? Small units of 3 or a larger unit?

And before anyone says it, I already have bikes so I’m not interested in how much better they might be lol. This is more so for casual play but also trying to make the best of these models.

I appreciate any and all help! They are some expensive models so I want to figure out how I want to run them before I invest in anything more.

the consensus of Allarus Termies is that "you're better off taking jet bikes instead" (granted thats the consensus of every unit thats bnot bikes in codex custodes) but I think they can have a place as a backlines deepstrike unit. use em to drop in and mutilate your opponents gunlines etc

Yea a lot of the reading up I had done before was that bikes were better. I won’t argue that because the fly key word is extremely powerful, they’re fast and they hit hard. With the game having to do with hitting your opponent hard and grabbing objectives the bikes are just in a perfect spot. Sadly the allarus will only be reasonable if they see points drop.

But like I said I’m just looking to see if anyone has tried them, how people have included them in their armies and stuff like that. As well as the take on the unit size. The strat unleash the lions seems great for large units. But I just wasn’t sure if the other stats seemed good to use as well.

What I was thinking of using was:
VANGUARD
shield captain on bike
Shield captain on bike

x3 allarus
x3 allarus
-for the 3rd option I’m not sure if I want to use a regular vexilla guy or a allarus vexilla. Because if I use the allarus he can deepstrike with the 2 allarus units. Then I can spend the cp to deepstrike the bikes. Where as if I use the regular vexilla I would have to use him and a shield captain on the bike to deepstrike. And the 2nd shield captain would just have to chill with my guard line until his buddies come on.

 tankboy145 wrote:
So I’m pretty new to custodes. I originally wanted to include them in my nova list but wanted to primarily play guard(that’s been my army for 8 years). And so after doing some reading up went the cheese route to just include some shield captains.

Now that the tournament is over with and I’m back to casual play I’m slowly building up some detachments (other than 3 cheese shield caps on bikes). I’ve got 3 units of 3 custodian guard. Each with 1 sword/shield and 2 guys with spears. And then I got 1 dude with a vexilla.

The models that appeal to me the most though are the allarus terminatora. Are there and detachments to to use them effectively? They seem to have some awesome strats. How would you include them in a detachment? Also what’s everyone’s preference on squad size? Small units of 3 or a larger unit?

And before anyone says it, I already have bikes so I’m not interested in how much better they might be lol. This is more so for casual play but also trying to make the best of these models.

I appreciate any and all help! They are some expensive models so I want to figure out how I want to run them before I invest in anything more.

You'd best be cautious calling anything Custodes 'Cheese' around here after admitting to playing IG

Allarus have good stratagems which makes them a hoot to play with. Custodes don't have that many CP which means they are so rarely seen at their full potential - but alongside a Guard army they should do fine. They have a big enough bag of tricks to make up for their hefty points cost in more relaxed play, if you can feed them CP. In terms of enjoyable games it's this kinda stuff that can really make for a good time.

I thought we concluded you were better off with Wardens if you wanted to go that route.

Haha my bad I wasn’t saying custodes themselves had cheese. But bringing only 3 shield captains in an imperial army is cheese lol.

I run a pretty fun guard army with leman russes and either infantry on foot or in transports in support of the tanks. Now I’m just trying to add some allarus to that as well!

 tankboy145 wrote:
Haha my bad I wasn’t saying custodes themselves had cheese. But bringing only 3 shield captains in an imperial army is cheese lol.

I run a pretty fun guard army with leman russes and either infantry on foot or in transports in support of the tanks. Now I’m just trying to add some allarus to that as well!

Haha just joshing around.

If you're a sucker for themed armies like me, you could paint your Custodes as the Dread Host Shield Company, famed for using Allarus:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Dread_Host

Pretty much just black trim rather than red. They basically march into a battle unbeknownst to those Imperium forces around them, bust some heads and take off again. Could fit in with your humble Guardsmen, just as shocked to see a bunch of giant gold Terminators teleport in as the enemy are.

Spartacus wrote:

 tankboy145 wrote:
Haha my bad I wasn’t saying custodes themselves had cheese. But bringing only 3 shield captains in an imperial army is cheese lol.

I run a pretty fun guard army with leman russes and either infantry on foot or in transports in support of the tanks. Now I’m just trying to add some allarus to that as well!

Haha just joshing around.

If you're a sucker for themed armies like me, you could paint your Custodes as the Dread Host Shield Company, famed for using Allarus:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Dread_Host

Pretty much just black trim rather than red. They basically march into a battle unbeknownst to those Imperium forces around them, bust some heads and take off again. Could fit in with your humble Guardsmen, just as shocked to see a bunch of giant gold Terminators teleport in as the enemy are.

Fancy you say that because that’s actually the shield host I decided to go with!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry about the side ways photos. I forgot they do that on here. Lol

Spartacus wrote:

Audustum wrote:
So we haven't had much discussion post FAQ. Is GW's change to Fly effecting anybody's decision making or are you still shaking things down about the same?

And what else are we gonna use right?
.

I really just wanted to highlight this point when it comes to talking about the faq change. Allarus won't be good as long as deep strike isnt good, footslogging is meh, we lack any decent transports, our dreadnoughts are garbage, telemon is decent but wont win us games alone. We are kind of pigeonholed here on what we can take, we dontt have a lot of other viable options available to us. Bikes just do everything better and the alternatives all come with huge downsides.

The FAQ kinda killed my Telemon idea, that is for sure. On the other hand it could be still useable in combination with the redeploy relic.
I am not a fan of this faq because it is a nerf to jetbikes and esp. stooping dive but on the other hand looking at some comments before the FAQ dropped I cant hide a slight grin.
Although there is no doubt that Ynnari will reign again and there really isnt much custodes can bring to the table to prevent that.

How do you guys like your Guard squads, I'm pretty sure 3x is the way to go, but how do you arm them? A single shield, misericordias?

I wouldn't bother with a shield, your already 4++ and the rest of your army will likely draw more fire.
Only take misericordia's to fill in any points you can't spend on more bodies.

 Perth wrote:
How do you guys like your Guard squads, I'm pretty sure 3x is the way to go, but how do you arm them? A single shield, misericordias?

For 3-man squads I'll keep them equipped with spears. For 5-man squads I'll throw a sword/shield in the squad. A big squad with a 3++ tends to draw some fire which keeps pressure of other elements in my army.

For knives, I only equip them on things to use up those last 8-12 points. They never really do anything of note.

I would do four man squads with 1 shield. You really don't need more than one unless you're purposely trying to exploit those sword Stratagems.

So post FAQ 2 question: can trajann valoris’ ability still give you d3 command points or did the faq limit it? I don’t see anything about it either way

I would argue it falls in line with the traits that give multiple CP at once which still do so.

Drdotts wrote:
So post FAQ 2 question: can trajann valoris’ ability still give you d3 command points or did the faq limit it? I don’t see anything about it either way

Theres an exemption in the first line of the second paragraph of Tactical Restraint:

"This does not apply to the Moment Shackle..."

Spartacus wrote:

Drdotts wrote:
So post FAQ 2 question: can trajann valoris’ ability still give you d3 command points or did the faq limit it? I don’t see anything about it either way

Theres an exemption in the first line of the second paragraph of Tactical Restraint:

"This does not apply to the Moment Shackle..."

Moment Shackle is seen as "not a problem" as it's a one time thing. (and Valoris is expensive eneugh that people aren't siding him into every detachment they can as a CP battery)

Hey, Primark: get ready to rejoice.

Blood of Kittens says rumored leaks include a drop in price for both Wardens and Allarus. Specifically, Wardens drop to 45 PPM (before wargear) and Allarus drop to 60 PPM (before wargear). 4 and 10 point drops, respectively.

Allarus might actually be worth a bit of investment if this holds.

Audustum wrote:
Hey, Primark: get ready to rejoice.

Blood of Kittens says rumored leaks include a drop in price for both Wardens and Allarus. Specifically, Wardens drop to 45 PPM (before wargear) and Allarus drop to 60 PPM (before wargear). 4 and 10 point drops, respectively.

Allarus might actually be worth a bit of investment if this holds.

This news excites me greatly.

Now if you excuse me gentlemen, I must change my undergarments for they have become soiled with joy juice.

Audustum wrote:
Hey, Primark: get ready to rejoice.

Blood of Kittens says rumored leaks include a drop in price for both Wardens and Allarus. Specifically, Wardens drop to 45 PPM (before wargear) and Allarus drop to 60 PPM (before wargear). 4 and 10 point drops, respectively.

Allarus might actually be worth a bit of investment if this holds.

Isn't Trajann dropping as well? Hopefully the point decreases will make up for the speculated bike increase.

Radikus wrote:

Audustum wrote:
Hey, Primark: get ready to rejoice.

Blood of Kittens says rumored leaks include a drop in price for both Wardens and Allarus. Specifically, Wardens drop to 45 PPM (before wargear) and Allarus drop to 60 PPM (before wargear). 4 and 10 point drops, respectively.

Allarus might actually be worth a bit of investment if this holds.

Isn't Trajann dropping as well? Hopefully the point decreases will make up for the speculated bike increase.

Trajann is said to be going down by 75!

So far, none of the leaks are saying point hikes for bikes. Crossing my fingers...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dr. Mills wrote:

Audustum wrote:
Hey, Primark: get ready to rejoice.

Blood of Kittens says rumored leaks include a drop in price for both Wardens and Allarus. Specifically, Wardens drop to 45 PPM (before wargear) and Allarus drop to 60 PPM (before wargear). 4 and 10 point drops, respectively.

Allarus might actually be worth a bit of investment if this holds.

This news excites me greatly.

Now if you excuse me gentlemen, I must change my undergarments for they have become soiled with joy juice.

Exalted.

The -10 sounds great for Allarus Custodians but personally I think Wardens should drop another 5 really.

The points changes make a lot of sense to me.
Valoris down to 175 is a bit excessive and unbelievable though... But it's about how much he's worth tbh.
Allarus down 10 is refreshing, I really enjoy using them and man that makes em worth it.
Cross fingers bikes at least stay where they are, they feel a bit overcosted with that rubbish charge atm.

A small points drop across the board for custodes would be very helpful to us, as we are a monofaction.

Where did those rumors come from?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Where did those rumors come from?

All the websites point to this as the original source - I've not been able to find it on FB myself.

Will a 10pt drop actually help Allarus though? From the last couple of posts there doesn't seem to be any mention of Vertus getting a points hike, it still seems it'll be just better to take them over the Allarus. Same with Wardens, 4pts doesn't look like it'll help them.

https://imgur.com/a/ldiBCNR
CA 18 leaks: Custodes are cheaper bikes did not go up in points

It's almost like Bikes aren't OP, people are just bad.

 nordsturmking wrote:
https://imgur.com/a/ldiBCNR
CA 18 leaks: Custodes are cheaper bikes did not go up in points

Some great stuff there.

On a side note and I know this is a bit off-topic but this is the first time I've seen these leaks, are they still not planning to reduce the points of the big bastards like Titans and such, or is that part not shown in the Imgur link?

 Valkyrie wrote:

 nordsturmking wrote:
https://imgur.com/a/ldiBCNR
CA 18 leaks: Custodes are cheaper bikes did not go up in points

Some great stuff there.

On a side note and I know this is a bit off-topic but this is the first time I've seen these leaks, are they still not planning to reduce the points of the big bastards like Titans and such, or is that part not shown in the Imgur link?

this is the only other link i have.
https://imgur.com/gallery/PVf1Vsr

 nordsturmking wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:

 nordsturmking wrote:
https://imgur.com/a/ldiBCNR
CA 18 leaks: Custodes are cheaper bikes did not go up in points

Some great stuff there.

On a side note and I know this is a bit off-topic but this is the first time I've seen these leaks, are they still not planning to reduce the points of the big bastards like Titans and such, or is that part not shown in the Imgur link?

this is the only other link i have.
https://imgur.com/gallery/PVf1Vsr

Thanks for that one too Shame the Telemon and other FW bits aren't getting the significant price drop they need.

Sword and Board Custodian guards are down 2 points because of sentinel blade dropping to 7 points.

I made this. I hope i got everything right.



I hoped for more reduction on allarus and some other things but i am quiet happy with this.

Edit: Landraider points a now correct. i assumed the Lascannon is down to 40 buts ist still 50p.
Warden points are now correct.

Yeah, as long as they didn’t dramatically boost other armies Custodes came out just fine

Yeah this is looking good for us. I'm liking this!

Our Forgeworld units probably weren't touched because they're still 'beta'.

Tajann Valoris seems pretty good now. I am definitely gonna try him out nest game.

Now all we need is the Talons book to be released so we can get some fire support.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Now all we need is the Talons book to be released so we can get some fire support.

Someone mentioned in the CA thread somewhere that it's been binned as of the vigilius weekender. Very upset!

Dudeface wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Now all we need is the Talons book to be released so we can get some fire support.

Someone mentioned in the CA thread somewhere that it's been binned as of the vigilius weekender. Very upset!

It's in the same position as Fires of Cyraxus: "Eventually, when we get to it".

Basically, they were making Fires (for like multiple years I think). Then they announced they were delaying Fires to make the Talons Index for 8th. Then they announced they were delaying Talons (and thus Fires) because 30k didn't feel loved or something and they were gonna focus on that more. Then at the weekender they said Talons is 'some point, eventually' more or less.

Anyone think the 2 point drop on Sentinel Blades raises their attractiveness compared to Spears? I don't think it was quite enough, but it's nice!

I think you took sentinel blades cause you wanted a shield, so it doesn’t really change the calculus that much for me. But it does make sword and board guys more interesting

I am pretty sure I am taking Custodes to LVO. Need a bit of advice on which direction to go with them. Looks like truly competitive lists boil down to 2 list:

Heavy bikes list + loyal 32
Custodes Battalion + Bikes + Loyal 32 + Assassin's

Now I definitely lean more towards the Custodes Battalion + Bikes + Loyal 32 + Assassin's list where I can fit in Trajann and the banner fella. Does anyone have much experience running this? I am going to start test games soon, and I have see these kind of lists floating around a lot. What are some of the tricks it provides and what are some weaknesses to look out for.

Alternatively, I am interested in what some of the competitive lists that you, the Dakka custodes community have had success with.

Radikus wrote:
I am pretty sure I am taking Custodes to LVO. Need a bit of advice on which direction to go with them. Looks like truly competitive lists boil down to 2 list:

Heavy bikes list + loyal 32
Custodes Battalion + Bikes + Loyal 32 + Assassin's

Now I definitely lean more towards the Custodes Battalion + Bikes + Loyal 32 + Assassin's list where I can fit in Trajann and the banner fella. Does anyone have much experience running this? I am going to start test games soon, and I have see these kind of lists floating around a lot. What are some of the tricks it provides and what are some weaknesses to look out for.

Alternatively, I am interested in what some of the competitive lists that you, the Dakka custodes community have had success with.

I haven't seen the Custodes Battalion list in a long time. It was kind of displaced by the Imperial Knight meta. Nowadays it's more like this I think:

Bikes + IG CP Battery (and I mean Bikes, all Bikes, look at Shane Watt's "Peace Through Dakka").

Bike Captains + IG Battery with artillery + Imperial Knights

Audustum wrote:

Radikus wrote:
I am pretty sure I am taking Custodes to LVO. Need a bit of advice on which direction to go with them. Looks like truly competitive lists boil down to 2 list:

Heavy bikes list + loyal 32
Custodes Battalion + Bikes + Loyal 32 + Assassin's

Now I definitely lean more towards the Custodes Battalion + Bikes + Loyal 32 + Assassin's list where I can fit in Trajann and the banner fella. Does anyone have much experience running this? I am going to start test games soon, and I have see these kind of lists floating around a lot. What are some of the tricks it provides and what are some weaknesses to look out for.

Alternatively, I am interested in what some of the competitive lists that you, the Dakka custodes community have had success with.

I haven't seen the Custodes Battalion list in a long time. It was kind of displaced by the Imperial Knight meta. Nowadays it's more like this I think:

Bikes + IG CP Battery (and I mean Bikes, all Bikes, look at Shane Watt's "Peace Through Dakka").

Bike Captains + IG Battery with artillery + Imperial Knights

Took a look at that list and holy crapola that is a lot of bikes. Kinda bummed the Custodes Battalion list died a meta death to knights as that was the list I was most excited about. Wouldn't the "Peace Through Dakka" list suffer the same fate? Seems like the 7 man bike squads would just get housed by a castellan. It kinda feels like if I bring the golden boys I will be playing dodge the Knights lists

The biggest problem with the knights for custodes is that Relic flamer, which not many knight players took.


It, on average, dealt enough overwatch damage to kill a Bike captain, which means custodes couldn't do anything to it.

Radikus wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Radikus wrote:
I am pretty sure I am taking Custodes to LVO. Need a bit of advice on which direction to go with them. Looks like truly competitive lists boil down to 2 list:

Heavy bikes list + loyal 32
Custodes Battalion + Bikes + Loyal 32 + Assassin's

Now I definitely lean more towards the Custodes Battalion + Bikes + Loyal 32 + Assassin's list where I can fit in Trajann and the banner fella. Does anyone have much experience running this? I am going to start test games soon, and I have see these kind of lists floating around a lot. What are some of the tricks it provides and what are some weaknesses to look out for.

Alternatively, I am interested in what some of the competitive lists that you, the Dakka custodes community have had success with.

I haven't seen the Custodes Battalion list in a long time. It was kind of displaced by the Imperial Knight meta. Nowadays it's more like this I think:

Bikes + IG CP Battery (and I mean Bikes, all Bikes, look at Shane Watt's "Peace Through Dakka").

Bike Captains + IG Battery with artillery + Imperial Knights

Took a look at that list and holy crapola that is a lot of bikes. Kinda bummed the Custodes Battalion list died a meta death to knights as that was the list I was most excited about. Wouldn't the "Peace Through Dakka" list suffer the same fate? Seems like the 7 man bike squads would just get housed by a castellan. It kinda feels like if I bring the golden boys I will be playing dodge the Knights lists

Peace Through Dakka puzzled me for a long time too, but I *think* the gimmick is to take the losses on the chin and then retaliatorily smash the offending Castellan with Avenge the Fallen to compensate for damage dealt.

There's something to be said for Mass hurricane bolter fire too. He has 216 shots in Rapid Fire Range. Unloading them all into the Castellan (instead of clearing chaff) gets you an average 11.67 wounds despite only wounding on 6's. A 7 Jetbike charge adds another 25.21.

So basically, mass Bolters fire the chaff around it to oblivion then slam it with about 20+ attacks from either a full squad or by using Avenge the Fallen.

EDIT: Regarding the Battalion, I think it can still work but it's an anti-meta list. Meaning it's destined to counter a specific kind of opponent (Captain Slamguinus + Guard). It will have problem with IK because foot sloggers take too much punishment getting in range.

You could ally the much cheaper AdMech in now though. Cawl plus 3 Mars Neutronagers is only like 550 total for a Spearhead. That might do some punishment.

An interesting train of thought is that Knights are on the decline due to the FAQ and now the buffing (points wise) of units while they stayed the same. I think the predicted shift is towards more heavy infantry armies potentially meaning the Custodes battalion could make a come back. However, why do the battalion when more storm bolter shots is the answer .

I kinda like going all in on the bikes anyways. I believe Ad Mech has the cheapest battalions now, basically can run 2 of those for 10 cp, outrider with 2 caps and as many bikes as I can fit and hope for the best? I prefer 2 caps over 1 just for scalpel purposes. They can get to needed objectives, find gaps in the line and in general break away to deal with issues, or just deep strike 1 of them. It feels like getting the 10 cp is fairly critical to have consistent access to the counter charge strat etc.. Playing just bikes hurts me on the insides, because I know we would all prefer to have some Allarus and other cool stuff around.

It's just a shame they put the "all the bullets" guns on the bikes. Mobility and the application of dakka has always been king in 40k. If they made the bikes more formidable in melee and had a chaff clearing foot based squad would have really opened things up in army design.

Radikus wrote:
An interesting train of thought is that Knights are on the decline due to the FAQ and now the buffing (points wise) of units while they stayed the same. I think the predicted shift is towards more heavy infantry armies potentially meaning the Custodes battalion could make a come back. However, why do the battalion when more storm bolter shots is the answer .

I kinda like going all in on the bikes anyways. I believe Ad Mech has the cheapest battalions now, basically can run 2 of those for 10 cp, outrider with 2 caps and as many bikes as I can fit and hope for the best? I prefer 2 caps over 1 just for scalpel purposes. They can get to needed objectives, find gaps in the line and in general break away to deal with issues, or just deep strike 1 of them. It feels like getting the 10 cp is fairly critical to have consistent access to the counter charge strat etc.. Playing just bikes hurts me on the insides, because I know we would all prefer to have some Allarus and other cool stuff around.

I think you're on the right track. Let's look at why the Battalion worked last time and see if we can duplicate it.

1. The Battalion itself was the counter to Captain Slamguinus and Guard camping objectives. Custodians are touch enough to tank the Captain's damage AND punish him for it. Custodes are both ObSec and can clear lots of Infantry off objectives.

2. The Assassins. The Culexus was used to protect you from psyker armies. The Callidus was used to screw up the CP expenditures of your typical smash list T1.

What has changed in the meta since then?

Captains are on the decline and thus so is the CP expenditure T1. Psykers are less prevalent as IK drove down TSons and, to a lesser extent, Ynnari.

So now we need less of the Assassins by a longshot. We also don't need as much touch meat to kill Captains (who can't jump over chaff now either). What do we need?

1. We need anti-armor for IK. They weren't nerfed in CA so I'd still expect to see a lot of them.

2. Still gotta clear lots of hordes.

3. Shooting is still king. We need to tie it up or kill it.

What does our battalion bring to this, at a minimum?

1. We can clear hordes.

So from your other two detachments, you need two things:

1. Anti-armor (in fast charging or shooting form).

2. A way to decapitate shooting.

AdMech can give you 1 in spades and for cheap now plus another 5 CP. You're above 1,000 points now though. So what do we bring for 2?

Audustum wrote:

Radikus wrote:
An interesting train of thought is that Knights are on the decline due to the FAQ and now the buffing (points wise) of units while they stayed the same. I think the predicted shift is towards more heavy infantry armies potentially meaning the Custodes battalion could make a come back. However, why do the battalion when more storm bolter shots is the answer .

I kinda like going all in on the bikes anyways. I believe Ad Mech has the cheapest battalions now, basically can run 2 of those for 10 cp, outrider with 2 caps and as many bikes as I can fit and hope for the best? I prefer 2 caps over 1 just for scalpel purposes. They can get to needed objectives, find gaps in the line and in general break away to deal with issues, or just deep strike 1 of them. It feels like getting the 10 cp is fairly critical to have consistent access to the counter charge strat etc.. Playing just bikes hurts me on the insides, because I know we would all prefer to have some Allarus and other cool stuff around.

I think you're on the right track. Let's look at why the Battalion worked last time and see if we can duplicate it.

1. The Battalion itself was the counter to Captain Slamguinus and Guard camping objectives. Custodians are touch enough to tank the Captain's damage AND punish him for it. Custodes are both ObSec and can clear lots of Infantry off objectives.

2. The Assassins. The Culexus was used to protect you from psyker armies. The Callidus was used to screw up the CP expenditures of your typical smash list T1.

What has changed in the meta since then?

Captains are on the decline and thus so is the CP expenditure T1. Psykers are less prevalent as IK drove down TSons and, to a lesser extent, Ynnari.

So now we need less of the Assassins by a longshot. We also don't need as much touch meat to kill Captains (who can't jump over chaff now either). What do we need?

1. We need anti-armor for IK. They weren't nerfed in CA so I'd still expect to see a lot of them.

2. Still gotta clear lots of hordes.

3. Shooting is still king. We need to tie it up or kill it.

What does our battalion bring to this, at a minimum?

1. We can clear hordes.

So from your other two detachments, you need two things:

1. Anti-armor (in fast charging or shooting form).

2. A way to decapitate shooting.

AdMech can give you 1 in spades and for cheap now plus another 5 CP. You're above 1,000 points now though. So what do we bring for 2?

I spent some time plugging in lists to get an idea of point ranges. Right now, pre-CA for 1199 points we can get:

--Custodes Battalion

Trajann
Shield Cap on Bike

3x3 Guard Squads

1x Banner Boi

--Ad Mech Battalion

2x Engiseer

3x5 Rangers

I tried to hunt down the exact point drops from CA, but it wasn't very easy. We know Trajann is down 65 and I believe the admech min battalion gets us another 20-30 points off, so let's say 20. So, from 1199 = 85 this base setup costs us 1114. Add in a 5x Bike squad and 4x Bike squad and we get to 1924 points. From here we can upgrade Banner Boi to Allarus, get some salvo launchers around (which also dropped I think) that can potentially help with our anti armor problem. Ideally i'd have loved to find the points for another bike captain, doable by cutting another bike (might be worth).

1. Anti-armor - This one will be our biggest weakness as it comes down to our bikes getting into melee or the ever unreliable salvo launchers.

2. A way to decapitate shooting - This I think we do much better against than anti-armor with the bikes. Especially if we are smart about using LOS terrain to our upmost advantage. A Tau gun castle is the scariest form of this with their overwatch, but making it in usually ends the game and if we can hit a nice consolidation it's super over (most Tau players will be outside of 3 for the consolidation anyways but not always). Alternatively, we can punish them very hard on objectives, again with LOS or cover, sitting Guard Squads on an objective basically nullifies all small strength no AP guns and anything that could dislodge them from the objective is frantically shooting at our bikes or trying escape their charges. That scenario is even worse for the Tau castle.

I think I am willing to concede the point to the anti-armor problem. Playing those games cagey and objective minded is our best hope. The other thing i'd be concerned with is the low body count not being the IG battalion and potential psyker armies, but as you said, the psyker armies aren't really heavily represented. Overall, it feels very hard to make it all work, I think we are always going to have some area we will be weak to and just have to accept that weakness.

Another decent addon is an Air wing Detachment with 3 Deathwatch Xiphos air superiority fighters. They went down to 680 pnts due to the twin lascannons dropping in cost.

Its 33 wounds t7 3+ hard to hit that carry 12 lazcannons and 3 str6 3 shot missles at ap -2 that deal flat 3 damage.


Very decent fire output. Use deathwatch for their anti-xenos strats on a very mobile unit.

I dont think my list is going to change at all, i only got Custodes for the looks and dont care if they are amazing or not, i also only have 2CP.

++ Total: [106 PL, 1973pts] ++
++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) [70 PL, 1260pts] ++

+ HQ +
Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike: Hurricane Bolter
Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike: Hurricane Bolter

+ Elites +
Vexillus Praetor Terminator Armor: Vexilla Magnifica

+ Fast Attack +
Vertus Praetors x3: Hurricane Bolters
Vertus Praetors x3: Hurricane Bolters
Vertus Praetors x3: Hurricane Bolters


++ Auxiliary Support Detachment -1CP (Imperium - FW Adeptus Astartes) [11 PL, 240pts] ++

+ Flyer +
Xiphon Interceptor 2x Twin lascannon, Xiphon missile battery

++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Imperium - Imperial Knights) [25 PL, 473pts] ++

+ Lord of War +
Knight Crusader [25 PL, 473pts]: Heavy Stubber, Ironstorm Missile Pod, Thermal Cannon
. Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer: Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer


Its my Rule of Cool Army

I think the base price of the Xiphon went up by 20 so the price stayed the same (as far as I can tell).

I'd run them as dark angels and include a dark shroud to give them native -2 to hit. If you have room for samuel on sable claw and the xiphons that is a strong anti-armor, hard to kill, very mobile detachment.

Problem is, its not killing a 3++ knight. 12 lascannons hitting on 3s, re-rolling 1s is 9 hits, 6 wounds, 4 saves for 7 wounds with the 9 missiles, 7 hits, 3 wounds, 2 saves so 3 more so a total of 10 wounds. Not nothing but melee does it better. They crush things without invulns though. Also that's like a 1k point detachment that gives you 1 cp...

Radikus wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Radikus wrote:
An interesting train of thought is that Knights are on the decline due to the FAQ and now the buffing (points wise) of units while they stayed the same. I think the predicted shift is towards more heavy infantry armies potentially meaning the Custodes battalion could make a come back. However, why do the battalion when more storm bolter shots is the answer .

I kinda like going all in on the bikes anyways. I believe Ad Mech has the cheapest battalions now, basically can run 2 of those for 10 cp, outrider with 2 caps and as many bikes as I can fit and hope for the best? I prefer 2 caps over 1 just for scalpel purposes. They can get to needed objectives, find gaps in the line and in general break away to deal with issues, or just deep strike 1 of them. It feels like getting the 10 cp is fairly critical to have consistent access to the counter charge strat etc.. Playing just bikes hurts me on the insides, because I know we would all prefer to have some Allarus and other cool stuff around.

I think you're on the right track. Let's look at why the Battalion worked last time and see if we can duplicate it.

1. The Battalion itself was the counter to Captain Slamguinus and Guard camping objectives. Custodians are touch enough to tank the Captain's damage AND punish him for it. Custodes are both ObSec and can clear lots of Infantry off objectives.

2. The Assassins. The Culexus was used to protect you from psyker armies. The Callidus was used to screw up the CP expenditures of your typical smash list T1.

What has changed in the meta since then?

Captains are on the decline and thus so is the CP expenditure T1. Psykers are less prevalent as IK drove down TSons and, to a lesser extent, Ynnari.

So now we need less of the Assassins by a longshot. We also don't need as much touch meat to kill Captains (who can't jump over chaff now either). What do we need?

1. We need anti-armor for IK. They weren't nerfed in CA so I'd still expect to see a lot of them.

2. Still gotta clear lots of hordes.

3. Shooting is still king. We need to tie it up or kill it.

What does our battalion bring to this, at a minimum?

1. We can clear hordes.

So from your other two detachments, you need two things:

1. Anti-armor (in fast charging or shooting form).

2. A way to decapitate shooting.

AdMech can give you 1 in spades and for cheap now plus another 5 CP. You're above 1,000 points now though. So what do we bring for 2?

I spent some time plugging in lists to get an idea of point ranges. Right now, pre-CA for 1199 points we can get:

--Custodes Battalion

Trajann
Shield Cap on Bike

3x3 Guard Squads

1x Banner Boi

--Ad Mech Battalion

2x Engiseer

3x5 Rangers

I tried to hunt down the exact point drops from CA, but it wasn't very easy. We know Trajann is down 65 and I believe the admech min battalion gets us another 20-30 points off, so let's say 20. So, from 1199 = 85 this base setup costs us 1114. Add in a 5x Bike squad and 4x Bike squad and we get to 1924 points. From here we can upgrade Banner Boi to Allarus, get some salvo launchers around (which also dropped I think) that can potentially help with our anti armor problem. Ideally i'd have loved to find the points for another bike captain, doable by cutting another bike (might be worth).

1. Anti-armor - This one will be our biggest weakness as it comes down to our bikes getting into melee or the ever unreliable salvo launchers.

2. A way to decapitate shooting - This I think we do much better against than anti-armor with the bikes. Especially if we are smart about using LOS terrain to our upmost advantage. A Tau gun castle is the scariest form of this with their overwatch, but making it in usually ends the game and if we can hit a nice consolidation it's super over (most Tau players will be outside of 3 for the consolidation anyways but not always). Alternatively, we can punish them very hard on objectives, again with LOS or cover, sitting Guard Squads on an objective basically nullifies all small strength no AP guns and anything that could dislodge them from the objective is frantically shooting at our bikes or trying escape their charges. That scenario is even worse for the Tau castle.

I think I am willing to concede the point to the anti-armor problem. Playing those games cagey and objective minded is our best hope. The other thing i'd be concerned with is the low body count not being the IG battalion and potential psyker armies, but as you said, the psyker armies aren't really heavily represented. Overall, it feels very hard to make it all work, I think we are always going to have some area we will be weak to and just have to accept that weakness.

This is really good and I think I can fill in some blanks!

The minimum AdMech battalion post-CA is 165 points. Trjann + Jetbike Captain and 3 Spear squads grafted onto that gets us two Battalions for just 978.

In this setup, I would take 1 big squad of Jetbikes instead of two mediums. The reasoning being that we want to capitalize on Avenge the Fallen to overcome our losses. Hurricane Bikes are 90 PPM, so 8 of them brings us to 1,698. You can Deep Strike them for 1 CP with Golden Light. They should only take one round of shooting before being able to reliably charge. Maybe 2 if you don't Deep Strike. With Avenge, you have to lose 5 Jetbikes before their melee capability is actually degraded (32 attacks in melee).

From here you have 302 points to spruce up AdMech or add something else. Another Jetbike Captain, add a Vexillus (124 points for one with axe and Magnifica) some heavy guns on the AdMech, e.t.c.

If we turn Trajann into a normal Shield-Captain or even an Allarus or Bike one, we'd save an addition 50-60 points and be around 350-370 for sprucing.

I think my only disagreement here is putting all 9 bikes in one group. Even though we are deep striking them they account for such a large investment that missing a charge out of DS might lose the game on the spot. The 5/4 split allows tactical flexibility, start the 4 on the board if sufficient LOS and the 5 in DS, or vice-versa, whichever seems appropriate given the circumstance. I think if the 5/4 split is used then the vexilla is required to weather a first turn (even with LOS we must except some shots to see a pointy spear ).

However, I am not inclined to dismiss the 9 bike star with out trying it, I have a game or potentially 2 games time permitting this weekend and I plan to run the 9 bike group first. Going with one big group I think cutting the vexilla is correct. If I get the second game I will run the 4/5 with vexilla. My final thoughts is if going with a 2nd shield captain to add an outrider and go 3x3 bike squads. The 3x3 is more to see how it goes rather than any additional benefits that doing the 4/5 or the 9 would provide.

Radikus wrote:
I think my only disagreement here is putting all 9 bikes in one group. Even though we are deep striking them they account for such a large investment that missing a charge out of DS might lose the game on the spot. The 5/4 split allows tactical flexibility, start the 4 on the board if sufficient LOS and the 5 in DS, or vice-versa, whichever seems appropriate given the circumstance. I think if the 5/4 split is used then the vexilla is required to weather a first turn (even with LOS we must except some shots to see a pointy spear ).

However, I am not inclined to dismiss the 9 bike star with out trying it, I have a game or potentially 2 games time permitting this weekend and I plan to run the 9 bike group first. Going with one big group I think cutting the vexilla is correct. If I get the second game I will run the 4/5 with vexilla. My final thoughts is if going with a 2nd shield captain to add an outrider and go 3x3 bike squads. The 3x3 is more to see how it goes rather than any additional benefits that doing the 4/5 or the 9 would provide.

Oh yeah, you make that deepstrike charge or you lose against knights.

I've done the matchup plenty, knights are super common in my meta.

Radikus wrote:
I think my only disagreement here is putting all 9 bikes in one group. Even though we are deep striking them they account for such a large investment that missing a charge out of DS might lose the game on the spot. The 5/4 split allows tactical flexibility, start the 4 on the board if sufficient LOS and the 5 in DS, or vice-versa, whichever seems appropriate given the circumstance. I think if the 5/4 split is used then the vexilla is required to weather a first turn (even with LOS we must except some shots to see a pointy spear ).

However, I am not inclined to dismiss the 9 bike star with out trying it, I have a game or potentially 2 games time permitting this weekend and I plan to run the 9 bike group first. Going with one big group I think cutting the vexilla is correct. If I get the second game I will run the 4/5 with vexilla. My final thoughts is if going with a 2nd shield captain to add an outrider and go 3x3 bike squads. The 3x3 is more to see how it goes rather than any additional benefits that doing the 4/5 or the 9 would provide.

So my view on it is that you WOULD fail the deep strike charge. You're not getting a reliable charge off till the second turn your Jetbikes are on the table (Round 3). Avenge the Fallen would be used to mitigate any losses since you are highly unlikely to lose 5 or more Jetbikes before their second turn of action.

For instance, a Gallant with 5A when stomping should only kill about 2 Jetbikes. Hurts, but Avenge the Fallen retaliation (on the turn the Gallant charged YOU after you arrived from Deep Strike) would average 19.43 wounds back on the Gallant. He definitely takes the worse of it. Even if your opponent tries to shoot you off the table the turn you arrive, taking out 5+ Jetbikes is a tall order. Assuming a Space Marine statline with re-roll 1's on a magic autocannon with -2 AP (basically the best profile for killing Jetbikes), it would take a whopping 40 shots to destroy 5 Jetbikes on average. Cawl's Wrath with re-roll everything from House Raven only averages 1 destroyed Jetbike and 1 wounded Jetbike, for example.

I personally do like the 3x3 setup though and use it myself. 1 Outrider, 1 CP Battery, then usually 1 detachment of heavy shooting from somewhere.

9 jetbikes is just under half your army. If every knight in the enemy army gets on target, and they will, you’ll probably lose the squad, or have it crippled

stratigo wrote:
9 jetbikes is just under half your army. If every knight in the enemy army gets on target, and they will, you’ll probably lose the squad, or have it crippled

8 Jetbikes* is 720, so it's 36% of your army. It really depends on comp from there. If you're fighting another assault army, you can likely easily deep strike somewhere your 14" Move will get you into position next turn and most of his stuff can't assault you. If it's a heavy shooting army, daisy-chain out to get a toe into the Vexillus and hang on. You'd be hard pressed to lose the squad though. An entire Castellan Knight with Cawl's Wrath and Raven Stratagem only averages about 12 wounds and that's if he also fires the Oathbreaker Missile at the Jetbikes. That's 604 points and 3 CP of your opponent's army to kill 3. He'd still have to kill 2 more to get you at your break even point and then 3 more beyond even that to wipe the squad (effectively, it would take 3 Knight Castellan's all with Cawl's Wrath and all using the House Raven strat to 1-round the Jetbikes with shooting).

Re: the discussion on the Big Bike Sqaud; Avenge the Fallen functions based on casualties sustained in that turn only.

As I understand the term 'turn', that basically means overwatch casualties only, unless your opponent foolishly decides to charge your half dead squad. Doesn't seem like something to be relied on.

However one other stratagem I've used to great effect in bikes is Unflinching: over watch on 5+. Used on even a min squad of bikes it makes them very difficult to charge with chaff squads and tarpit, and a big squad of 8+ might be almost immune. Doesn't help much vs knights, but might help prevent that bike star from being unable to charge on your next turn, especially in the age of 30 strong squads of Boys.

Spartacus wrote:
Re: the discussion on the Big Bike Sqaud; Avenge the Fallen functions based on casualties sustained in that turn only.

As I understand the term 'turn', that basically means overwatch casualties only, unless your opponent foolishly decides to charge your half dead squad. Doesn't seem like something to be relied on.

However one other stratagem I've used to great effect in bikes is Unflinching: over watch on 5+. Used on even a min squad of bikes it makes them very difficult to charge with chaff squads and tarpit, and a big squad of 8+ might be almost immune. Doesn't help much vs knights, but might help prevent that bike star from being unable to charge on your next turn, especially in the age of 30 strong squads of Boys.

Ah, you are right and I had neglected that restriction. That said, with Swooping Dive you can use it on a turn you were shot.

That said, Swooping Dive is a good reason to take 2 squads. Your opponent will have to entangle both or risk getting alpha struck by the other.

Audustum wrote:

stratigo wrote:
9 jetbikes is just under half your army. If every knight in the enemy army gets on target, and they will, you’ll probably lose the squad, or have it crippled

8 Jetbikes* is 720, so it's 36% of your army. It really depends on comp from there. If you're fighting another assault army, you can likely easily deep strike somewhere your 14" Move will get you into position next turn and most of his stuff can't assault you. If it's a heavy shooting army, daisy-chain out to get a toe into the Vexillus and hang on. You'd be hard pressed to lose the squad though. An entire Castellan Knight with Cawl's Wrath and Raven Stratagem only averages about 12 wounds and that's if he also fires the Oathbreaker Missile at the Jetbikes. That's 604 points and 3 CP of your opponent's army to kill 3. He'd still have to kill 2 more to get you at your break even point and then 3 more beyond even that to wipe the squad (effectively, it would take 3 Knight Castellan's all with Cawl's Wrath and all using the House Raven strat to 1-round the Jetbikes with shooting).

Don't get me wrong, bike armies will beat MOST enemies. It just WON'T beat a knight based army. Knights trade more effectively against you than you against them.

Thinking about trying my hand at a pure Custodes army, but want to avoid bike spam. Thinking along the lines of:


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) ++

+ HQ +

Captain-General Trajann Valoris

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike: Auric Aquilis, Hurricane Bolter, Superior Creation, Warlord

+ Troops +

Custodian Guard Squad
3x Custodian: Guardian Spear

Custodian Guard Squad
3x Custodian: Guardian Spear

Custodian Guard Squad
3x Custodian: Guardian Spear

+ Elites +

Vexillus Praetor: Misericordia, Vexilla Magnifica

+ Fast Attack +

Vertus Praetors
5x Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter

++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) ++

+ HQ +

Shield Captain in Allarus Terminator Armor: Castellan Axe

+ Elites +

Custodian Wardens
3x Warden: Castellan Axe, Misericordia

Venerable Contemptor Dreadnought: Combi-bolter, Dreadnought Combat Weapon, Kheres Pattern Assault Cannon

Venerable Contemptor Dreadnought: Combi-bolter, Dreadnought Combat Weapon, Kheres Pattern Assault Cannon