Looking for advice on how to handle a 6 Heldrake list.
This is not something I would normally want to ask about, but there's a guy who recently started coming to my FLGS and is running a CSM list that features 6 heldrakes, Typhus, and 6 large blobs of plague zombies (2000+ points, double FOC). He's there's at least 3 nights of the week, he's winning every game he plays, and other players are starting to refuse to play CSM armies (calling them OP and cheesy.)
I talked to him a couple days ago. He doesn't see what the problem is b/c his list is legal, he purchased all the models at the store, and it's not his fault for winning. I agree with that logic right to the point where it stops being fun for others, which is something I can't seem to get across. Definitely a very special personality.
I think the reason he is winning so many games is because of a tactics gap, but I have no clue how to fight a list like this with other armies. I would like to at least give other players advice on what to do when they face him.
How would you deal with a 6 Heldrake list in games between 2k and 3,500 points? About 30% of the people at my FLGS are play Tau, and I know a lot of people who are planning to buy Tyranid armies once the new Codex comes out. The other major armies people play are Eldar, Necrons, Space Marines, IG and Orks.
6 Drakes means that he plays double FoC, refuse to play double FoC, its only optional so he can't enforce it to you, so with only 3 Drakes its more manageable, even if it is still problematic.
Play Termies, the AP3 flamer won't do much more on 2+ armors.
SM guys can take Tantalus or Tartaros, can't really rmember, AA gunsentries from FW.
SW player of ours plays 3 per HS slot for a totla of 9.
SM can take Hydras to take care of them, with Stormtalons and Vendettas.
Also in a objectif hold scenario try to blast the zombies, once he is out of troups he can't take those, even if neither you due to the drakes flamers but hey...
6Drakes will also restrict a bit where he can put them on the table, try to simply cancel areas with your units, so that he can't VS past them.
If you play Deamons, use a flying circus list, you can VS him and use your shootings, while he with his flamers can't scratch you.
Taus should use and abuse of their AA upgrade on Broadsides with missiles and Riptides with a Novaed Burst cannon, 12 S8 shots, thats something nasty.
SM can also invest in Hunter/stalker tanks, Crons have the Scyths and flying bakery, and can Gauss them to death.
We CSM / Daemon players don't really like to play each other, so no screamerstars or fighting fire with fire.
Also, his list has about 120 plague zombies. Part of the problem is that it's really hard to kill all of them, and the Heldrakes wreck their opposition pretty quickly.
Four piece vengeance battery with Icarus pattern, quad-linked lascannons (300 pts). That is 8 Str9 AP2 BS2 TL Skyfire/Interceptor. Add in some reserves manipulation and a bit more skyfire and he will be sorry.
Or Tau Firebase Support Cadre; max broadsides with EWO and VT on all the suits can effectively remove his ability to even play the game. Depends on the list though as not all armies can ally with Tau.
I would just talk to him and explain in clear terms that this is a GAME and in a game both players should have FUN. Therefore his list which diminishes other's fun is not in the spirit of this being a game. Logically he should change his list or be prepared to not play the game with others...which does he prefer?
Helldrakes excel at killing troops. They are mediocre at anything else. 6 Riptides with Skyfire, multiple Sky Rays. Flyers counter flyers. Use Stormravens, etc... Nids will have a harder time of it. I would say try to go second and DS your Flyrants onto the board behind the Drakes when they come on. The important thing is to reserve the troops they kill to limit their damage.
ansacs wrote: I would just talk to him and explain in clear terms that this is a GAME and in a game both players should have FUN. Therefore his list which diminishes other's fun is not in the spirit of this being a game. Logically he should change his list or be prepared to not play the game with others...which does he prefer?
Yeah, I have talked to him. The player just has one of those personalities and doesn't get it. The owner of the FLGS and I both feel a little sorry for him, he's not making any friends and just seems to be there to run his 6 Heldrakes.
Well then. That is unpleasant. I would recommend perhaps pooling the players money and buying 4 vengeance battery with Icarus pattern, quad-linked lascannons or converting some. Keep them in the club and each person can throw them into their list when ever they play this person. Each turn the first helldrake that comes on will have a ~50% chance to be exploded for coming on and cannot even scratch the building in return. You can improve them with an upgrade (all the rules are in stronghold assault) but it may not be necessary.
Run a Sang Guard Spam! You will butcher his zombies! Probably the only list I would competitively take The Sanguinor against (goina need those +1 attacks against a zombie horde).
Land raider redeemer/crusader spam.
Assault centurions with tl flamers and hurricanes will also do a number on them. Take 3 squads!
Serp spam with NOTHING outside the serps.
6 Annihilation barges with everything else in nightscythes.
Riptides.
Heavy MC spam.
Automatically Appended Next Post: (First 3 lists just ignore the drakes)
Honestly, I'd just stop playing him. Explain that no one enjoys the games where he spams that much stuff. If he does not agree, tell him you refuse to play because it is not fun at all. If he doesn't like that, sucks for him. If he rages that he bought the stuff and can play what he wants if it is legal, you can acknowledge that he did, but remind him that so did you, and you can play WHO you want. You need the rest of the club to get on board too, however, or at least large chunks.
I don't know how plague zombies do against LRs, but I might also suggest LR Redeemers or Crusaders, filled with terminators. Just have one person make a list that he's going to hate to play against, and only play that person and list against him.
Tau currently have some of the best AA in the game. Just kit some broadsides out with skyfire and railrifles and you should be able to bring those drakes down with very little return fire to pressure you. Remember, you need to fight spam with spam.
Use your massed tau str 5/6/7 fire to focus on the zombies. You won't kill them all but your aim is to at least wipe a squad or 2 out to stop them getting an objective.
If you have access to psychic powers, try and get terrify. Get that on a zombie squad to get them off an objective, get them off the board, or to sweeping advance them.
Edit: And no, his list is legit. Any cultist squad can be upgraded to zombies. (Edit 2: sorry I should have said nominated, rather than upgraded, as it costs no points).
Dedicated Transports
LRC - MM, Deathwing Vehicle
LRC - MM, Deathwing Vehicle
LRC - MM, Deathwing Vehicle
2000pts
This is a win big/lose big list I like to play.
Not fully optimized to fight the list you posted, however very effective due to AV14, 2+ saves and 72 TL bolter shots a turn. If it was optimized then you could of course remove the techmarine, DW vehicle, the 3 Chainfists and all the TH/SS, this would give you another 265 points to play with. This would get you another LRC, or 2 lvl 2 librarians to try and get terrify.
That guy sounds like a tool. Feel free to tell him everyone on the internet thinks he's a doosh.
If that doesn't work, try these units for killing Turkeys:
-Riptides with HBC, TLFB, VT, and EWO -Broadsides with HYMP and VT
-Annihilation Barges
-Night Scythe
-Stormravens with MM + LC/AC -Wave Serpents with SL
Massed s6 fire is great at killing Zombies as it negates FNP, Wave Serpents work best, as do Annihilation Barges. Or just mass basic fire, though your troopers will need to hide in transports until the Turkey Hunt has progressed a little. Also, s6 templates. With 6 Turkeys and 120 Zombies, he isn't going to have room to spread out. Heavy Incinerators, Flamestorm Cannons, Hellhounds, ThunderFire Cannons, etc.
Also, take advantage of his mass bodies/fliers to predict flight paths and force your opponent into poor maneuvers.
Terrify is great for running down entire blocks of Zombies.
Well placed 2+ save characters can work wonders for protecting squads from Turkeys.
In general, the Chaos player will likely run into problems dealing with anything AV13 or higher. Just make sure those units are also contributing to the fight. A GK Land Raider Crusader with Psybolt Ammo comes to mind.
I really don't think you or anyone else should spend money and effort trying to tailor a list to beat this. Double FOC is by no means the standard format for game-store-level 40k. This guy made a 2000 point list, so he could bring 6 Helldrakes and a ton of zombies, which is a completely backwards approach to the game.
Don't play him at 2000 points. Other people may continue to give him games; that's their choice. In the spirit of sportsmanship, challenge him to some lower-points games and see if he's still willing to play. If he's not, just play other people. No sweat.
Otherwise, you're gonna spend a lot of headspace and a lot of money trying to win against someone who clearly has an antisocial approach to the hobby.
U're talking like helldrakes are so good there's no point playing vs them. There are lots of counters vs drakes. I'm thinking of a build that can handle this army hands down. Ig platoon with inquisitor and tigurius. They get a free 6' redeployment forward. They're likely to get 4++ and they'll kill everything in mellee. If you spread them - each drake is gona kill like 4 guardsmen per turn. U got 50. And that's just 350 pts for 50 of them. U might get 50 more or 50 conscripts with a comissar for 200+85 for comissar wirth pf. That's like 800 pts that's gona beat his 2k dragon list Until you get REALLY not lucky and he kills u'r inquisitor with a 2+ los and 4++. Even so u'll just have no grenades but will still be able to kill any zombies (though i'm sure he can take only 1 squad of zombies). On the leftover points you can have whatever you want.
That's just an example how 6 drakes with nothing more than zombies can be easilly countered. Just think something up and proxy a few models. Nothing terrifying is gona happen.
The deathwing list with triple LRC's and standard of devastation will effectively neuter his entire army. The Land Raiders are impervious to pretty much everything in his entire army.
Hell any army with 3x Land Raiders or more will just form an AV14 wall and laugh. Of course, unfortunately the guy is probably a guy that doesn't get it, and he will just show up with 5 heldrakes, typhus and a demon prince next time, or something like that, and keep trying till he finds the right mix while still being annoying to play against.
The best solution is to just not play the guy, or just play 1500 to 1850 pt games. Then he just can't run dual FoC's and it becomes a moot point. Also, at that point you're not refusing to play the guy, so he can't feel all butthurt about being excluded, he'll just whine that he can't use all his toys. He may just disappear on his own then.
I agree pretty much everything so far.
Dont forget squads of hydras. 6 full squads of them could put a hurting on them as well and at only 75 points each, you'll have plenty of points left.
Refusing to play the guy and getting everyone on board is the best idea. When he asks why, yes, tell him exactly why and dont debate it. otherwise he will whine and justify till the cows come home. say why and nd the conversation. Be sure tolet him know that it is because of his rmy and not him and that if he brings something reasonable, you would be happy to play him then.
You guys could also say something along the lines of sure. i'd be glad to play a 2k game with a single force slot. this will still let you field your normal army and remove his 2nd force slot and get rid of half his turkeys (although, then he could use guard allies and bring in 3 vendettas).
smaller games. instead of 2k, try 1500.
Keep in mind that my lists tend to be on the extreme side, but they are also Take-All-Comer's (TAC) lists as well. I also enjoy the mental exercise of coming up with these types of balanced lists, though I don't necessarily always play them.
Also, I wouldn't run any of these lists in a casual setting, just like your Chaos friend shouldn't be running 6 heldrakes in casual play as well. He'll learn soon enough when people start refusing to play against his list.
EVIL INC wrote: Arent the sabre playforms also forgeworld?
I remember checking them out. was a bit pricey at over $40 a model (altough this was a few years ago).
Yeah they are. They are such a good unit, both against air and ground targets. And the fact that they are scoring is a bonus.
Havnt seen the actual rules for them, but think they look amazingly cool and from what I hear of the rules, they are nice.
just cant justify that price tag. if i get my hands on the rules, may hafta convert me some.
was just asking to make sure cause you made a point to say the last list was FW. Seemed like the guard list wasnt and i had gotten excited there for a minute thinking of taking some to a tourney. lol
Fast Troops that can get into assault with the Zombies before the heldrakes hit the table is what you're looking for. Those Zombie combats will last awhile, giving the heldrakes no targets. If the troops in question have a 2+ armor save, all the better.
For example, full Dante Wing (Dante with Sanguinary Guard as troops) with 3 vindicators to pummel whatever unit Typhus is in could defeat the 6 Heldrake list without ever targeting the heldrakes. It's a bad example, as no one in their right mind is running full Dante Wing these days, but it just goes to show how counterable a list can be if you know what you're up against.
Obviously, it's not economic to buy and build a list just to beat one guy at your FLGS, but if he actually purchased all of those models from said store, it's a bummer that no one wants to play him just because he's crushing the local Meta.
In regards to refusing to play this guy, yeah, some people are kind of doing that already with Chaos players. But our local club is pretty friendly, I don't think anybody wants to be actively chasing anyone away. That guy might not possess many redeeming social values, but other people there have their own personality defects too. It would be hard to figure out where to draw the line, so there's some value in not having one.
That said, he has been tearing up everyone he faces in long, boring games. For the record, he has other models in his army, the Zombies and the Drakes are just the obnoxious part of his list. I haven't paid particularly close attention to his games, but I have seen plague marines, predators, obliterators and terminators there, too.
I really think we could do best by having the tactics to simply beat this list. There's the issue of the Heldrakes and there's the issue of the Zombies. Some questions:
- With the 4 vengeance battery with Icarus pattern, quad-linked lascannons: any army can take that, right? How do the rules actually work against flyers? Doesn't it have some rule about only being able to shoot the closest model?
- With 6 Riptides with HBC, TLFB, VT, and EWO - how many points is that? There are a lot of Tau players there, maybe some of them could loan each other models.
- With Annihilation Barges and Night Scythes - do these do anti-air?
- How would a good Eldar list deal with them?
- How about IG? He has really upset some Guard players by outnumbering them on the field and taking out large blobs with the Heldrakes.
That said, he has been tearing up everyone he faces in long, boring games. For the record, he has other models in his army, the Zombies and the Drakes are just the obnoxious part of his list. I haven't paid particularly close attention to his games, but I have seen plague marines, predators, obliterators and terminators there, too.
I really think we could do best by having the tactics to simply beat this list. There's the issue of the Heldrakes and there's the issue of the Zombies. Some questions:
If he has 6 heldrakes, 6 blobs of 20+ zombies and Typhus, and MORE stuff, than you are clearly playing 2000+ points, and the game really becomes nuts at that level. Sure your group may be friendly, but to defeat him you're going to have to play some "unfun" combo's and units yourself, and if that's the direction you want everyone going for your "friendly" game club, it seems like a sure-fire path to destruction.
Seriously, play games at 1850 or less and the problem magically goes away without having to hurt anyone's feelings.
You can always also just say, no double force orgs. if you play a smaller point level, he can still use 3 and have almost the same effect. Play single force org at 2k and those 3 wont have near the effect as 6 does at that points level.
In regards to refusing to play this guy, yeah, some people are kind of doing that already with Chaos players. But our local club is pretty friendly, I don't think anybody wants to be actively chasing anyone away. That guy might not possess many redeeming social values, but other people there have their own personality defects too. It would be hard to figure out where to draw the line, so there's some value in not having one.
That said, he has been tearing up everyone he faces in long, boring games. For the record, he has other models in his army, the Zombies and the Drakes are just the obnoxious part of his list. I haven't paid particularly close attention to his games, but I have seen plague marines, predators, obliterators and terminators there, too.
I really think we could do best by having the tactics to simply beat this list. There's the issue of the Heldrakes and there's the issue of the Zombies. Some questions:
- With the 4 vengeance battery with Icarus pattern, quad-linked lascannons: any army can take that, right? How do the rules actually work against flyers? Doesn't it have some rule about only being able to shoot the closest model?
- With 6 Riptides with HBC, TLFB, VT, and EWO - how many points is that? There are a lot of Tau players there, maybe some of them could loan each other models.
- With Annihilation Barges and Night Scythes - do these do anti-air?
- How would a good Eldar list deal with them?
- How about IG? He has really upset some Guard players by outnumbering them on the field and taking out large blobs with the Heldrakes.
The list you presented should not have room at 2000 pts for much else. If he is bringing stuff like you indicate then you may want to pay close attention to his list.
The vengeance battery with quad las that I recommended can be taken in any army (except perhaps tyranids if rumours are correct) and fires on the nearest target but with priority targeting of flyers and then vehicles (so until the hellturkeys die they will be shooting those).
Annihilation barges and night scythes are excellent AA.
The IG guys need to take more vendettas, sabre platforms, and/or hydras and space their troops out more. To deal with the zombies they can effectively rely of FRFSRF and their artillery.
If he has 6 heldrakes, 6 blobs of 20+ zombies and Typhus, and MORE stuff, than you are clearly playing 2000+ points, and the game really becomes nuts at that level. Sure your group may be friendly, but to defeat him you're going to have to play some "unfun" combo's and units yourself, and if that's the direction you want everyone going for your "friendly" game club, it seems like a sure-fire path to destruction.
Seriously, play games at 1850 or less and the problem magically goes away without having to hurt anyone's feelings.
Sorry, I tried to be clear about that in the original post. Most of the games played at my FLGS are between 2,000 and 3,500 points. Some people play for less, but the majority of games are at this level.
Mech IG with Vendatta should sort him rather quickly. Start dropping pie plates and massed fire on the Cultists and wait for his heldrakes to come in. They shouldn't be able to do too much about your tanks for a turn or 2 with his drakes.
Don't leave any room for his heldrakes to place their bases and make him either hover or crash. When he hovers, anything that can hurt it will have free reign at full BS.
I'm really surprised no one has said anything about the Tau Firebase formation. Kit the one broadside squad with HRR and VT, and the other with HYMP and VT, and HBC riptide with VT/EWO. All 2+ armor, all tank hunting, all skyfire. And it comes in one box that is actually a discount.
The simplest solution is often best, in my opinion.
If flyers cannot move legally they crash and die. Render legal movement impossible. He has 120+ infantry and six flyers; That takes up a significant amount of board space and any opponent who brings a foot list should find it fairly simple to crowd the field to the point where he cannot legally place more than one or two of his drakes. Green tide would be particularly effective due to obscenely high model count and high number of attacks/shots to clear zombies. PK's hiding in the units can whittle down whatever else he has backing his guys up, and once you spread across the table each drake he manages to place can only kill 6-8 Boyz a turn. Green tide laughs at those kind of casualties, and cares even less once they get stuck into close combat. This kind of full-field coverage also negates Vector Strike by preventing him from crossing a unit and landing safely.
Turns are won in the shooting and assault phases, but games are won in the movement phase.
Eldar, A huge nonconventional counter to flyers is warp spiders. They are the fastest units in the game. and can easily stay behind a flyer and out of retaliation range. Each has 2 str7 BS 4 shots.
Or FW Firestorm transports.
Then load up on mass infantry killing elves to take out the zombie hoard
2500 Points gets you 5x 20 boys in battlewagons (to flood his half of the center-board on turn one), 4x 30 boys (to flood YOUR half of the center) and a combination of 2x 30 grots/3 runtherds and 4x 15 man big gunz cannon squads (to fill your own deployment zone) with 150 points left for your choice of two HQ's.
Just try to maneuver 6 flyers around 346 infantry models and six tanks.
He can't win if you kill all his zombie troops. Take 3 Blood Angel Furiosos with Blood Talons. The Heldrakes will have trouble killing those and they should tear through the Zombie squads in short order.
Tuagh wrote: The simplest solution is often best, in my opinion.
If flyers cannot move legally they crash and die. Render legal movement impossible. He has 120+ infantry and six flyers; That takes up a significant amount of board space and any opponent who brings a foot list should find it fairly simple to crowd the field to the point where he cannot legally place more than one or two of his drakes. Green tide would be particularly effective due to obscenely high model count and high number of attacks/shots to clear zombies. PK's hiding in the units can whittle down whatever else he has backing his guys up, and once you spread across the table each drake he manages to place can only kill 6-8 Boyz a turn. Green tide laughs at those kind of casualties, and cares even less once they get stuck into close combat. This kind of full-field coverage also negates Vector Strike by preventing him from crossing a unit and landing safely.
Turns are won in the shooting and assault phases, but games are won in the movement phase.
Except that Flyers can end their movement above models, even if they have to respect the 1" away from the base, you do has with the Wobbly models rule, you place a token where the Thing is reality, even if the base and model are before that.
Pg80 flyers and movement.
DarthDiggler wrote: He can't win if you kill all his zombie troops. Take 3 Blood Angel Furiosos with Blood Talons. The Heldrakes will have trouble killing those and they should tear through the Zombie squads in short order.
..;Nope... Drakes have absolutly no difficulties to VStriking to death AV12 walkers, its even their fav thing to VStrike.
Except that Flyers can end their movement above models, even if they have to respect the 1" away from the base, you do has with the Wobbly models rule, you place a token where the Thing is reality, even if the base and model are before that.
Pg80 flyers and movement.
This is incorrect. Wobbly model only allows you to mark position for a model that you can place legally, but not physically. In all instances, you treat the model as if it were in the marked position. Is that position legal? No: There are enemy models within 1" and a flyer cannot be placed within 1" of such a model.
It doesn't even work for landing with your base over your own models. Other models are treated as impassable terrain. Flyers/skimmers/jump units may land on impassable terrain, but only if they can be physically placed at that location, which disallows use of the wobbly model rule. In addition I believe there is, toward the beginning of the book, a specific restriction against stacking models (other than wrecked vehicles, which are then terrain anyhow).
I'm pretty sure some of the battlefield obstacles from stronghold assault would be good here too. Razor wire being dangerous terrain for infantry or something ~ if enough zombies walk over it they'll just cut themselves to shreds on a "1"
Except that Flyers can end their movement above models, even if they have to respect the 1" away from the base, you do has with the Wobbly models rule, you place a token where the Thing is reality, even if the base and model are before that.
Pg80 flyers and movement.
This is incorrect. Wobbly model only allows you to mark position for a model that you can place legally, but not physically. In all instances, you treat the model as if it were in the marked position. Is that position legal? No: There are enemy models within 1" and a flyer cannot be placed within 1" of such a model.
It doesn't even work for landing with your base over your own models. Other models are treated as impassable terrain. Flyers/skimmers/jump units may land on impassable terrain, but only if they can be physically placed at that location, which disallows use of the wobbly model rule. In addition I believe there is, toward the beginning of the book, a specific restriction against stacking models (other than wrecked vehicles, which are then terrain anyhow).
Pg 80, says that a Flyer can end his movement over other models, that other models that can physically passe under can do it, and that ennemy models must be at 1" form its base.
While he still must respect the 1" from ennemy models, the Flyer can still end his movement over those models, you then use the Wobbly model rule, just like you stated, if you can't put the model, but you could legally put it there, you place a marker.
With necrons it would be really easy to beat that list. Run mech spam.
6 annihilation barges is enough to make most armies wet themselves.
3 units of warriors in ghost arks
4 units of warriors in night scythes
Overlord.
If you roll 10 warriors in each ark, you have 30 shots within 12" at plague zombies, which are super slow and you can easily outrun. Heldrakes are vector striking your AV13 armor and glancing on a 6, so they are useless now, even with the autocannon, unless they can hit rear armor they are not hurting anything.
4 night scythes will be able to make some quick work of the drakes as well. On the flipside, you could go full on air force, but then you lack the amount of shots needed to take out some zombies who might make it to an objective. Or spread out enough to box your fliers in.
Best of all is that alst turn you can drop warriors out of all your vehicles to contest as much as you want.
I think your best answer to this problem depends on the environment at your local game store. You may want to avoid an arms race situation where you buy stuff to counter him, then people have to buy things to counter you and so on. Some game stores thrive in an "arms race" situation, everyone gets a bit more competitive and you can have fun competition without the complexity of social regulations. Some communities (I have seen this personally) can all but die if a competitive player forces an arms race. You alienate your new, young, broke and the fluff fiends. All of them used to enjoy the game and contribute to the community in some way, but now they don't see the point.
If you are in an environment where there are frequent events, most of the players are adults with a paycheck, and most of the gamers want to be better players, an arms race is good. It will grow local interest, and players will be there more days.
If you are in a "shoot the gak" environment where people show up and eventually someone throws everyone in some huge free for all or a "you play him, I'll play him" situation, an arms race might really hurt.
I would say, depending on your local environment and if other players really aren't having fun:
1. Tech him and teach him a lesson (or tech him a lesson haha). Almost any newer competitive list could do this, as others have mentioned.
2. Alienate him socially. He will eventually find another clique more accepting if you guys are through with him.
Never seen six 'Drakes but there's a few 4 'Drake and zombie lists at my LGS. The Iron Hands air force mops 'em up pretty good from what I've seen. I forget the actual composition but it's something like 3 Stormravens and 3 Stormtalons. If you're going double FOC use the extra set of heavy slots for a bunch of TFC and that should clean up the zombies as well.
OT: You say you've had a discussion with him to try explain what others want from a game.... have you asked what he wants from a game? Is he wanting no holds barred, balls to the wall games? or is he after the thrill of the win (regardless of the level of the competition).
Either way, I reckon indulge him, play him occasionally and give him the victory he apparently craves. Just don't play him too often if fit is a difficult game to enjoy.
With regards to tailoring, OP, even though I don't recommend an arms race, what models do you have available?
Slayer le boucher wrote: Pg 80, says that a Flyer can end his movement over other models, that other models that can physically passe under can do it, and that ennemy models must be at 1" form its base.
While he still must respect the 1" from ennemy models, the Flyer can still end his movement over those models, you then use the Wobbly model rule, just like you stated, if you can't put the model, but you could legally put it there, you place a marker.
I interpreted these rules differently. I understood them to mean there needs to be space for the base (+1 inch) but it is okay for parts of the flyer that overhang the base to be positioned over enemy models.
Slayer le boucher wrote: Pg 80, says that a Flyer can end his movement over other models, that other models that can physically passe under can do it, and that ennemy models must be at 1" form its base.
While he still must respect the 1" from ennemy models, the Flyer can still end his movement over those models, you then use the Wobbly model rule, just like you stated, if you can't put the model, but you could legally put it there, you place a marker.
I interpreted these rules differently. I understood them to mean there needs to be space for the base (+1 inch) but it is okay for parts of the flyer that overhang the base to be positioned over enemy models.
Nareik has stated the most common interpretation. I have never heard of anyone playing as Slayer le boucher has described. It doesn't mean Slayer is wrong, just not how I have ever seen it played. IMHO This is the wrong forum for it, as this is a YMDC type discussion.
OP - I'd just play single force org battles. Try to show him that two 1500 point games can be played in the same amount of real time as this huge debacle he is forcing on you now. Not to mention it is going to be a hell of a lot more fun for all parties involved.
1) Don't play him at 2000+ points and/or double FOC.
2) Hard counter his list with air force or Tau EWO/VT spam.
Option 2 makes me feel sort of queezy. However, the good news is, there really aren't the tools in the CSM codex to come back at most of the counters you'll bring for his turkey spam. It may (probably not, but may) teach him a valuable lesson about buying your way to wins.
Slayer le boucher wrote: Pg 80, says that a Flyer can end his movement over other models, that other models that can physically passe under can do it, and that ennemy models must be at 1" form its base.
While he still must respect the 1" from ennemy models, the Flyer can still end his movement over those models, you then use the Wobbly model rule, just like you stated, if you can't put the model, but you could legally put it there, you place a marker.
I interpreted these rules differently. I understood them to mean there needs to be space for the base (+1 inch) but it is okay for parts of the flyer that overhang the base to be positioned over enemy models.
Nareik has stated the most common interpretation. I have never heard of anyone playing as Slayer le boucher has described. It doesn't mean Slayer is wrong, just not how I have ever seen it played. IMHO This is the wrong forum for it, as this is a YMDC type discussion.
Well it might be the easiest way to interpret it mind you, but then why not simply state that "parts of the model (wings etc) can be over other models" rather then saying "the model can end his movement over other models", the sentence end his movement over other models is what make the difference with simply parts or the wings of the model can beover them.
After all it makes sens, why should a flyer who is 100 feet above the ground care about the crawling infantry when moving over them?, you could argue that its the same for Skimemrs and other anti-grav contraptions, but for them its clearly stated that they doesn't actually fly, they just Hoover a dozen or so feet above the ground.
But yeah its a YMDC case, it was just to make a remark that just overruning the board with models to hinders the movement of the drakes isn't the solution.
HiiC wrote: I think your best answer to this problem depends on the environment at your local game store. You may want to avoid an arms race situation where you buy stuff to counter him, then people have to buy things to counter you and so on. Some game stores thrive in an "arms race" situation, everyone gets a bit more competitive and you can have fun competition without the complexity of social regulations. Some communities (I have seen this personally) can all but die if a competitive player forces an arms race. You alienate your new, young, broke and the fluff fiends. All of them used to enjoy the game and contribute to the community in some way, but now they don't see the point.
There's no chance of an arms race breaking out. No one's trying to outspam that guy so much as figure out what tactics work against his army.
In a world dominated by Tau and Eldar, it's a bummer to exile someone for playing Chaos Space Marines, even if it is CHEESE. You gotta figure if he's playing at 2000+, so are his opponents...they should have the resources to put up a fight...
To the OP, what army do you play? What are you throwing at him when you play the 6 Heldrakes?
I don't play that guy, the Chaos players at my FLGS are outnumbered as it is and we don't usually play each other.
I was there last night and got to watch that guy play a game. In addition to his army choice, it turns out he's a legitimate hard case. Throughout the game, he was laughing to himself over choices his opponent made and telling him things like 'you aren't going to win, might as well give up.' At one point, he decided the time had come for arguments about the rules. He spent 45 minutes trying to make a case for why it was legal to tank shock his own zombies with a Predator (which seemed like he was really just trying to move a zombie blob up a couple extra inches). I thought that guy was about to start yelling throughout the entire game.
His movement phases all took like 20 minutes and he positions every model on the board around terrain. The highlight of the game happened when his glasses fell off and knocked some models around. He was putting his Obliterators back upright and moved them like a foot away from where they were into cover. We called him on it, he said he wasn't cheating but had a stigmatism that messed up his depth perception.
The worst part about the game is that nothing really happened until turn 4. Before that, it's mostly just pathfinders and 3 Riptides shooting up Zombies. Then 5 Heldrakes come in, vector strike and flame everything, and the Tau player is down to an ethereal, a Riptide and one squad of pathfinders. That's when the Tau player gave up, after putting up with 3 hours of semi-abuse to reach an anticlimactic slaughter.
When they were cleaning up, the Tau player couldn't find some of his models. I think that guy is keeping trophies to boot.
I think I am going to buy some vengeance batteries and just leave them at the store for anyone to use.
The worst part about the game is that nothing really happened until turn 4. Before that, it's mostly just pathfinders and 3 Riptides shooting up Zombies. Then 5 Heldrakes come in, vector strike and flame everything, and the Tau player is down to an ethereal, a Riptide and one squad of pathfinders.
Guy sounds like a douche, but ignoring that..
How did 5 drakes kill so much, including 2 riptides? They should at worst take 5 flame hits (or maybe some autocannon hits), and get 2+ saves, which would be a massive waste of the drakes potential and leave everything else untouched, more than likely not killing a single riptide.
How did 5 drakes kill so much, including 2 riptides? They should at worst take 5 flame hits (or maybe some autocannon hits), and get 2+ saves, which would be a massive waste of the drakes potential and leave everything else untouched, more than likely not killing a single riptide.
The Riptides had already been shot up a little bit by that turn. A blob of Zombies managed to put wounds on one of them, and the Predators and Obliterators managed to shoot up one of the others.
As a previous GW store manager, I have to ask what the store management thinks? An FLGS isn't just a sell and move them along operation. You have to nurture and develop a community.
You stated that the store sold him the 6 heldrakes. I would have considered it irresponsible and damaging to the community to sell one person 6 heldrakes and would have tried to guide the purchases in a different direction. At the end of the day, a person is going to buy what the want, but sometimes saying no to one person enhances revenue from everyone else.
How did 5 drakes kill so much, including 2 riptides? They should at worst take 5 flame hits (or maybe some autocannon hits), and get 2+ saves, which would be a massive waste of the drakes potential and leave everything else untouched, more than likely not killing a single riptide.
The Riptides had already been shot up a little bit by that turn. A blob of Zombies managed to put wounds on one of them, and the Predators and Obliterators managed to shoot up one of the others.
How many points is this? 6 heldrakes, typhus and 6 large blobs of zombies, preds and oblits? These stories sound like the chaos player has much more stuff than opponent, is anyone checking his lists?
Getting assaulted by zombies seems a bit daft of a riptide..
I don't play that guy, the Chaos players at my FLGS are outnumbered as it is and we don't usually play each other.
I was there last night and got to watch that guy play a game. In addition to his army choice, it turns out he's a legitimate hard case. Throughout the game, he was laughing to himself over choices his opponent made and telling him things like 'you aren't going to win, might as well give up.' At one point, he decided the time had come for arguments about the rules. He spent 45 minutes trying to make a case for why it was legal to tank shock his own zombies with a Predator (which seemed like he was really just trying to move a zombie blob up a couple extra inches). I thought that guy was about to start yelling throughout the entire game.
His movement phases all took like 20 minutes and he positions every model on the board around terrain. The highlight of the game happened when his glasses fell off and knocked some models around. He was putting his Obliterators back upright and moved them like a foot away from where they were into cover. We called him on it, he said he wasn't cheating but had a stigmatism that messed up his depth perception.
The worst part about the game is that nothing really happened until turn 4. Before that, it's mostly just pathfinders and 3 Riptides shooting up Zombies. Then 5 Heldrakes come in, vector strike and flame everything, and the Tau player is down to an ethereal, a Riptide and one squad of pathfinders. That's when the Tau player gave up, after putting up with 3 hours of semi-abuse to reach an anticlimactic slaughter.
When they were cleaning up, the Tau player couldn't find some of his models. I think that guy is keeping trophies to boot.
I think I am going to buy some vengeance batteries and just leave them at the store for anyone to use.
Do people not understand that you don't have to play him? Also, if he wants a game, say "Sure! Let's do 1500 points!"
Sounds like asperger syndrome, but I'm not a Doctor.
How did 5 drakes kill so much, including 2 riptides? They should at worst take 5 flame hits (or maybe some autocannon hits), and get 2+ saves, which would be a massive waste of the drakes potential and leave everything else untouched, more than likely not killing a single riptide.
The Riptides had already been shot up a little bit by that turn. A blob of Zombies managed to put wounds on one of them, and the Predators and Obliterators managed to shoot up one of the others.
Sounds like something odd is going on here. Zombie's, IIRC, don't have a shooting weapon, they only have a CC weapon, so they shouldn't have been able to put wounds on a riptide due to shooting. If they were in CC, do Riptides have Hit and Run, I don't remember, but if they were in CC the drakes shouldn't have been able to hit them at all.
Also, the Riptides optimal configuration should include Interceptor, so the heldrakes may have been able to vector strike (not sure which goes first, vector strikes or interceptor) but the Riptides should have had a reasonable chance of downing one or two before the baleflamers came down. Also, the Riptide has a 2+ save meaning it should have relatively little to fear from a Vector Strike and Baleflamer attack themselves, unless they were incredibly unlucky.
So, yea, something just seems off about all this to me.
Ok, so with that many tau players I'm sure you could cobble together a sextide list (I'm not sure if that's even right I just wanted to write "sextide"). But in all seriousness, six riptides would grief the living gak out of that list. I'm not even sure it matters how you kit them. I'd maybe go 2x HBC's. Then just pie plate his troops with the others. Smash like 4 skyrays in there. Then just butt loads of FoF's.
Then you can show him how cheese should really smell without spending a dime.
Edit: I'm just trying to think of a way to do it on the cheap, to avoid an arms race. And I. Sure your players would let you borrow some tides and rays to see the life drain from his eyes as you slap down six riptides..
If you're doing dual force org with allies, you could actually ally Tau Empire to Farsight Enclaves to get a total of 6 Tau Empire Riptides, 2 Farsight Enclave Riptides and O'Vesa. If you include the experimental R'Varna rules, you'd be able to add in 6 Heavy Support XV107 Riptides. Farsight's crew can't take them unfortunately.
That would be 15 Riptide battlesuits of varying armament in a single, legal dual FOC list. Way over 2000 points, but it's pretty easy to make things ridiculous.
Automatically Appended Next Post: 2,226 points for Farsight, 2x Ethereals, 4x 6man Fire Warrior Squads, O'Vesa and 8 Riptides
Add in 6 R'Varnas if allowed or Tau Fire Support Cadres for extra Riptides as needed at hight point level games.
Hey, thank you again for all the advice. I have put some of this together and will start passing it along to other players.
Feels like every time I post, I have to apologize about not being a little sterner with that guy. You know, I probably should be telling people not to play him, maybe we will get there someday. It's just hard to say that when I am not the one playing him.
@Chaos chump @whitedragon - yes, one of the riptides got charged by zombies and took 2 wounds. The other riptide that was damaged failed a save (or a couple - can't remember) from Obliterators and predators. It happens when you are able to cover about 3 square feet with models all at once. One of the riptides went down to a vector strike, the other got shot up by something.
@reiner - yes, it's sad when people feel like they have to steal. That's what is so hard about all this - I really feel sorry for that guy.
@Imnewherewheresthebathroom - I don't think anyone else in my FLGS wants to fight cheese with cheese. There are enough models between all the players to put together just about any army we want. More than anything, the point of this was just to assess what tactics are strong against such an army. I am not up on Stronghold or most fortification rules, and I don't know the specifics about anti-air for Necrons, Eldar and Tau (but I know they're good.) My Heldrakes always seem to go down to a random bolter shot or something equally stupid, not MC quad laser tesla suit redoubts.
@Kriswall - I would point that out to other players at my FLGS, except they might come back at me with it someday. The majority of games we play are 2500 points and over, so I am sure someone could afford it.
The other thing I forgot to mention about that guy is last night he talked to me about painting. I was there to paint. He described his armies as being painted to a high standard, which meant 3 color schemes. He literally painted 3 colors on each model - like with the zombies - flesh on the fleshy parts, blue on the cloth parts, brown on the boots, all block colors. No shading, no highlighting, just flat colors. His Heldrakes are all painted a flat color plus silver - yellow plus silver, blue plus silver, etc. He put a big red chaos star across their wings in order to achieve the third color.
He also mentioned he doesn't like GW paints and finds Testors to be more satisfying. It's all kind of funny when you think about it.
Well its not really anyones fault really when you think about it.
Sure he seems like an ass for doing this, and you guys seems to not really knowing how to deal with it, but in the end, its hard to "police" someone, who isn't a close friend, a family member or simply someone you don't know.
The real giulty here is GW for permitting those kind of things.
At the era where you had 0-1 or 0-2 on some units because they where deemed too unbalanced if you took them more then once or twice, those kind of things din't really occur.
okay there where still some abuse with other stuff but all in all, something really powerfull or broken was fearly rare.
Now the only limit is your wallet and your patience abd motivation to make that much units, and who's fault is that?
GW?, sure, but also parttly the players, where they pleaded that they wanted the ability to play lore of thoses limited units because for various reasons, good or bad.
So now we end up with this kind of situations, where you have to ask someone to not play something, that like he said, he payed for it and he have the right to play it, like you guys are has rightfull has him to not accept it.
But in the end it always leads to awkward situations, and thats what is hurtfull for a gaming community i think.
Now if the guy is also stubborn about it, then yes there is no 36 solutions to the problem.
Got to bite your tongue and do what you see fit to do in the end.
After reading this thread it seems the problem isn't 6 Heldrakes, but the player. I've seen this kind of player before, and it's really sad. The only thing they have in life is 40K.
The testors thing is hilarious. Also what he calls a high standard. I would love to see him smack his models down next to a truly we'll painted army and say that. But at least he painted them. Painting is a skill that just escapes some people and they can't be blamed.
Now the bread and butter. If you refuse to cheese him back you won't win. Not impossible maybe but close. And really at 2500+ points six riptides a isn't that cheesy. It's competitive. Comp tau players run 3 tides. So double foc means 6 to be competitive. Then run something awesome, like 8 fish of fury. Then you can make a mobile assault defense line. Line then up in a vanguard then deploy to the center and dakka their faces off, jump back in and back up.
Imnewherewheresthebathroom wrote: The testors thing is hilarious. Also what he calls a high standard. I would love to see him smack his models down next to a truly we'll painted army and say that. But at least he painted them. Painting is a skill that just escapes some people and they can't be blamed.
Now the bread and butter. If you refuse to cheese him back you won't win. Not impossible maybe but close. And really at 2500+ points six riptides a isn't that cheesy. It's competitive. Comp tau players run 3 tides. So double foc means 6 to be competitive. Then run something awesome, like 8 fish of fury. Then you can make a mobile assault defense line. Line then up in a vanguard then deploy to the center and dakka their faces off, jump back in and back up.
I definitely agree with you here. At 2500+ points 6 Heldrakes is not ridiculous at all. There are too many counters.
Let's all be realistic here. The real problem with the guy is not 6 helldrakes (which is actually a terribly unbalanced list). Rather it appears to be the player attitude and the inability of the community to deal with him.
Some more tactical advise would require some idea of the armies. For example white scars or ravenwing can just charge into the zombies and stay in combat during the helldrake shooting phases. Imperial guard will be fine if they take anywhere near the number of vendettas this guy is taking helldrakes. Many of the pieces of advise here should take care of the winning aspect.
Sadly it sounds like winning will not necessarily fix the "fun" of the games with this player. If taking the player aside and explaining the principles of games, gamership, and mutual fun doesn't work then it may be an immaturity issue (regardless of age immaturity is a real issue). Hopefully he can be reasoned with to provide for better games. I would recommend smaller point levels just to reduce the pain of time lost when playing him if you still want to play him.
i agree with single force charts and not allowing doubles. This will stop the 6 birdies and force him to take a more "balanced" list.
As for the behavior..earlier, i would given him the benefit of the doubt but with the way ihas been described, I would refuse to play him at all and if i did, I would literally watch him like a awk and if I had to use the water closet or step away, i would have a buddy 'watch him' and make sure he heard you ask. If you have others who watch games or arenearby, It ght be a good ideato let him realize that everyone is tratinghim likeTFG and whe hegets aroundto asking why or voicing, it, lehimknow.
ansacs wrote: Let's all be realistic here. The real problem with the guy is not 6 helldrakes (which is actually a terribly unbalanced list). Rather it appears to be the player attitude and the inability of the community to deal with him.
The real problem isn't with the guy, or the community, or the attitude. They might be contributing factors or symptoms, but they aren't the core issue.
The core issue is the game itself. If the game didn't have dual force org, or the silly ally system, or was even remotely balanced, this problem wouldn't exist.
That's the real issue. The rest of the stuff are symptoms really.
Blacksails wrote: The real problem isn't with the guy, or the community, or the attitude. They might be contributing factors or symptoms, but they aren't the core issue.
The core issue is the game itself. If the game didn't have dual force org, or the silly ally system, or was even remotely balanced, this problem wouldn't exist.
That's the real issue. The rest of the stuff are symptoms really.
Except this guys list is not actually that great of a list. Notice that not a single one of the dual FOCGTs has been won by something like this. This list has huge numbers of hard counters and is in fact not a great list. What it is is a mono dimensional list that if played against people without the resources available to them will steam roll them. In any game where list design has an effect on the game the same thing would be observed. I will not say that 40K is perfectly balanced or even particularly well balanced but if you want a game where what you take has an effect on the game then there will always be imbalance in the list construction. This is why perfectly balanced games, ie checkers, most board games, and chess all require both players to take the same starting state.
People tend to compare 40K to chess, checkers, or battleship but 40K is much closer to DnD or other roleplaying games where the design choice was maximize options not minimize imbalance. Therefore there is a preface to the rule book that says in the spirit of the game and there are numerous portions of the rule book that repeatedly state that you should try to create a fun gaming experience for all.
The issue IS with this guy. I've read through this thread and started feeling that talking to him and involving the community in bettering him was the way to go. However, as soon as you said he is stealing property I lost all compassion. The manager of the store MUST ban a known thief from entering the premises. There's no other way. Get rid of him.
Blacksails wrote: The real problem isn't with the guy, or the community, or the attitude. They might be contributing factors or symptoms, but they aren't the core issue.
The core issue is the game itself. If the game didn't have dual force org, or the silly ally system, or was even remotely balanced, this problem wouldn't exist.
That's the real issue. The rest of the stuff are symptoms really.
Except this guys list is not actually that great of a list. Notice that not a single one of the dual FOCGTs has been won by something like this. This list has huge numbers of hard counters and is in fact not a great list. What it is is a mono dimensional list that if played against people without the resources available to them will steam roll them. In any game where list design has an effect on the game the same thing would be observed. I will not say that 40K is perfectly balanced or even particularly well balanced but if you want a game where what you take has an effect on the game then there will always be imbalance in the list construction. This is why perfectly balanced games, ie checkers, most board games, and chess all require both players to take the same starting state.
People tend to compare 40K to chess, checkers, or battleship but 40K is much closer to DnD or other roleplaying games where the design choice was maximize options not minimize imbalance. Therefore there is a preface to the rule book that says in the spirit of the game and there are numerous portions of the rule book that repeatedly state that you should try to create a fun gaming experience for all.
Again, no, the problem isn't the person, its the game.
If the game was balanced, or had checks to stop this kind of list, then we wouldn't be here in this thread even discussing it. You're confusing a symptom with a problem.
The problem is the game; dual force org, poor internal balance, poor external balance.
The symptom is the players using lists that exploit any one of those issues.
If you address the problem (fix the game in some meaningful way) the symptom (cheese list) will go away.
*Edit* Either way, no one is forcing you to play against a list you don't like. If the guy is an ass anyways, leave the lists out of it and address him as a person.
Again, no, the problem isn't the person, its the game.
If the game was balanced, or had checks to stop this kind of list, then we wouldn't be here in this thread even discussing it. You're confusing a symptom with a problem.
The problem is the game; dual force org, poor internal balance, poor external balance.
The symptom is the players using lists that exploit any one of those issues.
If you address the problem (fix the game in some meaningful way) the symptom (cheese list) will go away.
*Edit* Either way, no one is forcing you to play against a list you don't like. If the guy is an ass anyways, leave the lists out of it and address him as a person.
Exactly, this conversation would go exactly the the same if he had taken 6 wave serpents, screamer star, cron air or vendetta spam. There is always crumby units and great units in a codex. It's the ability to spam that unit that makes it a problem, a problem that is greatly increased at 2k double force org.
I wouldn't recommend buying lots of X unit because it counters his list (that's list tailoring anyway), just don't play him if you don't think it will be a fun game.
ansacs wrote: Let's all be realistic here. The real problem with the guy is not 6 helldrakes (which is actually a terribly unbalanced list). Rather it appears to be the player attitude and the inability of the community to deal with him.
The real problem isn't with the guy, or the community, or the attitude. They might be contributing factors or symptoms, but they aren't the core issue.
The core issue is the game itself. If the game didn't have dual force org, or the silly ally system, or was even remotely balanced, this problem wouldn't exist.
That's the real issue. The rest of the stuff are symptoms really.
Do people not understand that you don't have to play him? Also, if he wants a game, say "Sure! Let's do 1500 points!"
Sounds like asperger syndrome, but I'm not a Doctor.
As someone who has the listed condition, I can assure you that this analysis is flawed at best.
There is no indication that he is having difficulty understanding social interactions. Could he be? Sure. It's possible. But it doesn't look that way.
It seems far more likely that he's just a dick.
I have to agree with that as well. I too suffer the effects o asrgers and while it does interfere with a lot of things and make some stuff harder, it doesnt make you act like that. I know I never have.
I think a few of those who are biased towards us here would bet well served to research the condition before attributing it to all negative behavior.
I have to agree with that as well. I too suffer the effects o asrgers and while it does interfere with a lot of things and make some stuff harder, it doesnt make you act like that. I know I never have.
I think a few of those who are biased towards us here would bet well served to research the condition before attributing it to all negative behavior.
Yeah, just to be clear, in no way am I saying that guy has aspergers or any kind of psychological issue. If he does, I am not trying to make fun of him. As a gamer, he simply has a unique personality and perspective on the game.
There is one other thing about the way he plays that is very interesting tho, and that is worth talking about.
It's with his zombies and the way he lines them up. When I have seen him play, he is meticulous about the placement of models. He creates 2 lines of zombies that occupy almost the width of the board, and has everything else marching behind them. He creates gaps between these two lines for units from his army to shoot through. You can tell those gaps are very strategic, they allow other models to shoot at opponents at specific angles that allow focus fire.
The front line troops are being used to provide cover for the ones behind them. When he loses some models, he's spreading them out the next turn, and looking very carefully at the placement. He's putting his head near the board sometimes into order to figure out true line of sight from one unit to the next. This is why his glasses keep falling off on the table, and why his movement phases take forever.
The result is that anything is his army that matters always has a cover save. There's no way to shoot at his other units without shooting through them first. It was watching the way he handled his zombies that made me want to start adding cultists to my own.
More and more dickheadedness with each revelation.
I say never play him and warn anyone who might as to what their in for. My group has seen folks like this come and go. The group will learn to not play him or he will learn to stop being such a gigantic donkey-cave.
I say never play him and warn anyone who might as to what their in for. My group has seen folks like this come and go. The group will learn to not play him or he will learn to stop being such a gigantic donkey-cave.
I wouldn't call this being a dill weed. My point is he really knows how to use his meatshields well.
I say never play him and warn anyone who might as to what their in for. My group has seen folks like this come and go. The group will learn to not play him or he will learn to stop being such a gigantic donkey-cave.
I'm sorry, and not trying to sound confrontational or sarcastic, but how does playing by the rules and using them properly to maximize the potential of his units make him an donkey-cave?
I'm not seeing it, honestly. He's not bending the rules, or using shady interpretations, he's just doing what the book allows him to create artificial firing lanes. If you have a problem with that kind of play, maybe this ruleset is what's giving you problems, not the people.
But once more, all this points to flaws in the game, not the people playing it. When you blame the player, all you're really doing is pointing out that you may not like the way someone else plays/enjoys the game, the same way they might think the same of you.
It's with his zombies and the way he lines them up. When I have seen him play, he is meticulous about the placement of models. He creates 2 lines of zombies that occupy almost the width of the board, and has everything else marching behind them. He creates gaps between these two lines for units from his army to shoot through. You can tell those gaps are very strategic, they allow other models to shoot at opponents at specific angles that allow focus fire.
The front line troops are being used to provide cover for the ones behind them. When he loses some models, he's spreading them out the next turn, and looking very carefully at the placement. He's putting his head near the board sometimes into order to figure out true line of sight from one unit to the next. This is why his glasses keep falling off on the table, and why his movement phases take forever.
The result is that anything is his army that matters always has a cover save. There's no way to shoot at his other units without shooting through them first. It was watching the way he handled his zombies that made me want to start adding cultists to my own.
It's unfortunate that he acts in an unpleasant manner, as it appears he's a good tactical player and peeps could actually learn some tricks from observing his games.
Like you've been saying all along, forget about his personal nature and focus on how to beat him. As a few of us have already pointed out, get your units into assault with his zombies so they cannot be Baleflamed (or vector striked) ASAP, and have a few units in your backfield that have a punchers chance in bringing down a heldrake or 2.
I asked before, but do not recall you giving an answer (though I may have missed it). What army do you play?
It's unfortunate that he acts in an unpleasant manner, as it appears he's a good tactical player and peeps could actually learn some tricks from observing his games.
Like you've been saying all along, forget about his personal nature and focus on how to beat him. As a few of us have already pointed out, get your units into assault with his zombies so they cannot be Baleflamed (or vector striked) ASAP, and have a few units in your backfield that have a punchers chance in bringing down a heldrake or 2.
I asked before, but do not recall you giving an answer (though I may have missed it). What army do you play?
I play Chaos, but that's besides the point. The Chaos players at my FLGS don't really play each other, we're heavily outnumbered by Tau / Eldar / SMs / IG as it is. There's really never going to be a situation where I play that guy.
You are getting to my original point, I don't have any interest in telling him how to play or trying to chase him away. I put this in the tactics forum to discuss tactics for how to beat him. What I am really seeking is some advice I could give to other players, it's actually an interesting tactical question. I have gotten some already, but this remains an interesting topic for other reasons.
That guy is playing by the rules with a legal list, and he is an above average player in just about any way I can think of. TBH, I have learned a few things by watching him play. At the same time, he has a challenging personality and is getting a lot of attention because of the nature of his list and the outcomes of games.
More than anything, people's responses in this thread have been not to play him. That's not the point of the thread, but it is an interesting reaction. Some of the other players at my FLGS have started talking about Chaos being OP and I can think of a couple times where someone refused games against other CSM players. So there's this question of managing people's reactions. I mean, I can get some quad guns and leave them at the store, but how do you deal with people getting pissed playing against a legal list and refusing games? That's a whole other side to this that's worth discussing since it has the potential to ruin the environment of an otherwise friendly community.
Anyways, yes, I guess I should just repeat that I appreciate everyone's advice and would like to keep the conversation going. This doesn't affect me directly since I won't be playing him, but it does in terms of understanding people's anxieties.
SlaveToDorkness wrote: That stacked on top of the other revelations in this thread makes him an ass that I wouldn't enjoy playing. So I wouldn't.
Taking way too long to set your models each and every turn is asinine. Especially in a "friendly" game.
These sound like problems with the game, not the people. He's following the rules, using the 'tactical' allowances in the rules, and playing in a way he obviously enjoys. Knowing nothing else about him, I can't judge him as an ass from that alone. He maybe be an ass, I don't know, but judging him as one on the way he takes a while to move models seems a little extreme to me.
But again, all this stems from the game and the rules that create scenarios like this. If the cover system made sense, if TLOS was removed, if any number of changes were made, this sort of thing wouldn't exist.
The way I see it, this is coming from someone with a different army. If he can field it, you need to deal with it. So he has a very Air Force heavy list. You gotta find a way to deal with it. Or don't play the guy.
This does not have a single thing to do with the rules. If someone doesnt like the rules, they may do their own house rules when playing at home or play a different game.
It is 100% the behavior of the player. Some are just so competitive that they will treat every single game, even friendly ones, as though it was the final game of the world tournament and lives were on the line. The trash talking and stealing of other's miniatures are the characteristics of TFG or a total jerk.
So you are having characteristics of two seperate types of gamer, unfortubnately, when one person exhibits BOTH of these together, you just get someone your better off not playing to begin with. OR you can follow some of the other suggestions such as out-cheesing him or limiting the games to a single force org chart.
This is all about the rules GW put out. People can't be held responsible for taking legal options in their list. The *options themselves* should be better balanced, so this kind of thing is *impossible*. Gamers are not known for self-nerfing. They are known for power gaming.
People like this who complain and moan about how the list is cheesy instead of finding ways to beat it really bug me. Is it a nasty army? Yes, is it unbeatable? Hell no, if he has 6 flyers just realize that you need to bring some more anti-air or even "Mech Up" your army. Someone brought a nearly identical list to our store and he lost EVERY GAME, once to my own flyer heavy Elysians and then to a Deathwing DA army as it was pure landraiders and Landraider Crusaders and his Helldrakes were useless. Its not an unbeatable list, people just need to change up their tactics, or as others have mentioned, say you don't want to play double FOC.
1) the OP's question: how do you tactically play against this? Take any tournament style Tau or Eldar list at this level and you have a decent chance. Tau are particularly well prepped for this at this level. Easy to take 6x2 missile side units with EWO. Riptides should be tearing his zombies down well before he gets a chance to get near you.
2) is he a douche? Which the OP is stating is not their question, but they have obviously brought up at the same time. I haven't met him, but he sounds like he is annoying and a bit rude.
In the UK there isn't much dual FOC play. It's mostly 1500/1750/1850. I guess single org reduces the chances of kinda dull games.
This does not have a single thing to do with the actual rules. if that were the case, each and every single player who plays 40k would be 'this way", so the whole "its the rules fault" theory is bogus.
It is 100% the issue of the player himself.
Blaming the player rather than the rules only means that you don't like the way someone else plays.
If someone genuinely enjoys playing a list with heldrakes and cultists, then they shouldn't be berated and told they're horrible people because you don't like it. They might think the same of you for running a helter skelter marine list, or rough riders, or any other combination.
It is absolutely a rules issue. If the rules/game were balanced, there wouldn't be this arbitrary line between what constitutes 'casual, fun, rainbow' lists and 'I'm gong to club baby seals and eat your first born child competitive' lists.
Don't act like playing a more 'casual' list makes you a superior gamer who plays only for fun. Different strokes and all that.
Don't judge people on the lists they play or how they play the game, but on how they act and behave. A list does not equal a person.
techsoldaten wrote:I was there last night and got to watch that guy play a game. In addition to his army choice, it turns out he's a legitimate hard case. Throughout the game, he was laughing to himself over choices his opponent made and telling him things like 'you aren't going to win, might as well give up.' At one point, he decided the time had come for arguments about the rules. He spent 45 minutes trying to make a case for why it was legal to tank shock his own zombies with a Predator (which seemed like he was really just trying to move a zombie blob up a couple extra inches). I thought that guy was about to start yelling throughout the entire game.
His movement phases all took like 20 minutes and he positions every model on the board around terrain. The highlight of the game happened when his glasses fell off and knocked some models around. He was putting his Obliterators back upright and moved them like a foot away from where they were into cover. We called him on it, he said he wasn't cheating but had a stigmatism that messed up his depth perception.
When they were cleaning up, the Tau player couldn't find some of his models. I think that guy is keeping trophies to boot.
techsoldaten wrote:
The other thing I forgot to mention about that guy is last night he talked to me about painting. I was there to paint. He described his armies as being painted to a high standard, which meant 3 color schemes. He literally painted 3 colors on each model - like with the zombies - flesh on the fleshy parts, blue on the cloth parts, brown on the boots, all block colors. No shading, no highlighting, just flat colors.
Just wanted to remind everyone that, based on the above quotes, the guy IS a pretty large tool.
The significant problem is that people at his FLGS are starting to think CSM are overpowered and not wanting to play against the codex. The OP happens to play CSM, so he's feeling the effects of this guys dooshyness by simply playing the same army (not list) as the offender. It's crazy to think that a FLGS that has Tau and Eldar players are complaining about CSM, but every meta is different...
There's one guy at my LGS that I refuse to play, but he doesn't know it. I don't have to be rude to him to not play him...I just will not ever accept a game against him. I assume that if everyone did the same, he's quit coming around as often...
You need to point out to your crew although they struggle with this one chaos space marine list, that doesn't mean all chaos space marine lists are too powerful for them.
It's absurd to refuse to play against a Khorne ground pounding list because they don't like nurgle zombies and heldrakes!
Edit: Still, there is plenty of variety in the chaos codex once you step away from plaguedrake lists. If CSM players get completely ostracized you can always have plenty of interesting games against eachother :p
Just wanted to remind everyone that, based on the above quotes, the guy IS a pretty large tool.
The significant problem is that people at his FLGS are starting to think CSM are overpowered and not wanting to play against the codex. The OP happens to play CSM, so he's feeling the effects of this guys dooshyness by simply playing the same army (not list) as the offender. It's crazy to think that a FLGS that has Tau and Eldar players are complaining about CSM, but every meta is different...
There's one guy at my LGS that I refuse to play, but he doesn't know it. I don't have to be rude to him to not play him...I just will not ever accept a game against him. I assume that if everyone did the same, he's quit coming around as often...
Might be better to say he's an enigma and leave it at that. There's a part of me that finds him repulsive, and a part of me that recognizes he is an above average player.
Like when he was arguing about the rules for the predator being able to tank shock his own troops, it was this complicated argument about the model being stuck between 2 blobs and having to move because of some other coherency issue (can't have 2 units pass through each other). While we eventually all agreed he had to leave the tank where it was, I had this feeling I was really missing some point I just couldn't appreciate. It's easy to see there's some brilliance in what he does with those zombies, he gets a ton of them up the board.
Not sure what to make of it, but calling him names just seems wrong. I know his list makes some people mad, it will be interesting to see how people adjust. I have put together a short list of the suggestions from this thread and will be talking them through with other people at my FLGS this weekend. It's pretty awesome how this forum can come together to share ideas.
And I might take photos of some of those models if he comes around.
EVIL INC wrote: This does not have a single thing to do with the actual rules. if that were the case, each and every single player who plays 40k would be 'this way", so the whole "its the rules fault" theory is bogus.
It is 100% the issue of the player himself.
It is the rules fault. Helldrakes are undercosted and there are not real alternatives in the CSM fast attack slot. Quit expecting people to self-nerf.
Actually, I have seem him in a game versus 2. Like I said, he hasn't lost any games with this list. He has more than Heldrakes and Zombies, those are just the spam. Obliterators kill LRs just fine.
Blaming the rules and totally forgiving the player gives them a free pass to do literally anything they like, cheat, steal models (where oes the rules say to do that anyway?).
The simple fact is that if the rules caused people to act this way, each and every single 40k player worldwide would be doing the things this guy is doing and this thread would not have even been started because that sort of behavior would not only be the norm but it is what would be expected. This proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that the rules do not have a single iota of responsibility for the behavior displayed by this player. If rule bashing is your agenda, by all means start a thread on it but as it has nothing to do with THIS thread, we can move past that and address the ACTUAL issue, which is his behavior.
Sorry, saying "the rules MADE me take a cheesy spam list and MADE me act like a jerk and MADE me trash talk and insult my opponents, and MADE me take 20 minutes mathmatically GPSing each and every single model on the table and they MADE me steal other player's models is a cop out.
the 6 helldrakes are not the problem. There have been a dozen or more different ways to nullify them using the same rules. Purposely letting someone beat me because I am afraid to respond in kind to spank him into taking reasonable lists or ask him to play a lower point cost game or to limit the game to a single force org does not mean the rules are making me not do those things.
Unitil someone addresses the ACTUAL issue, it will continue. Sitting around placing blame elsewhere instead of taking responsibility for my own actgions or holding someone else responsible for their own actions just doesnt cut it for me.
Wow. You are really silly. That is a serious slippery slope argument. I'm not talking about trash talking or any of that crap. I'm talking about list construction.
6 drakes are LEGAL and FAIR in a double FOC game. It is 100% GW's fault that this set up is legal.
Players are not going to self nerf to give other players a better experience. GW needs to write rules that take this into account. They are denying reality with their current philosophy.
You have proven nothing other than perhaps you share GWs pollyanna view of gamers. If GW wrote better rules, these players you are talking about WOULD BE TOTALLY HELPLESS to make these kinds of lists.
If you read through the thread, you will see that the 6 birds are not the issue at ll. The actual issue is his trash talking and his stealing models and his taking so long to move his models.
the thread is not actually about list construction at all. The OP has ben given a dozen or more ways to spank down that list easily. thats the problem with any one trick pony list, another one can out trick it.
Does that mean that i dont think that there are issues with the rules? No it does not. I can think of several issues off the top of my head. The simple fact though is that many people pin EVERY single issue that ever arises on the rules and jumps up on a soapbox with the ANTI GW agenda. Personally, I think they started off with a great product but have been running it into the ground over the years.that doesnt mean I'm going to blame ehavior issues on them. o do that WOULD be a slippery slope. I am ony holding the man responsible for his own actions. I take full responsibility for my own and I expect others to do the same.
likewise, the players who are complaining abouthis actual list ARE self nerfing. they have the knowledge and resources to beat him but refuse to do so.
again, the issue is not his list at all and no matter how poorly written or grandly written the rules are, they just do not have a single thing to do with his behavior.
now, if i wanted to talk about how bad the rules are, i would start a thread about it instead of hijacking another unrelated thread.
Yeah, some people are jerks. Welcome to gaming. I suspect a few losses will fix his behaviour as well. GW enables jerks by letting them build bully lists.
If a person is a terrible gamer, leave the list out of it. At this point its the players in the local area who will decide what is cool and what isn't.
If the list isn't the issue, then tactically there's nothing left to discuss.
If the list is the issue, then I suggest you look at how you play and consider that someone else may enjoy playing the game differently.
But once more, all this boils down to the fact that 40k is a pooly balanced game that creates artificial boundaries between so called 'casual' and 'competitive.
EVIL INC wrote: Which has nothing to do with the out of game behavior of the players which this thread is about.
Did you read the original post? He's asking for tactical advice for fighting a 6 helldrake list. People MADE it about player behavior.
Most people have been giving -very- sound tactical advice. Such as refusing to play against lists you don't like. Sounds like a great way to get games in.
What really stumps me is how he mentioned 30% of his FLGS played TAU which have the MOST access to skyfire and interceptor in the game. It's really their own faults if they choose not to adjust their army list to combat a new threat, especially if they have all the tools available to them.
This is an interesting thread for a number of reasons! If you get the chance to watch him play again, techsoldaten, I'd love to hear another battle report (abbreviated or just the high points) including any psychological perspectives you might be able to add... I may have missed it, where do you guys play?
It does sound like he's a good player, but has a lot of other qualities that would make him even harder to play against. I'd be so annoyed with him by turn 2, that I'd make some critical error and lose horribly on turn 3. lol.
it doesn't sound much like aspergers, just that he doesn't have many social skills and is just rude.
I'm hoping you'll see him lose soon (or hear about it) and you can describe what happened (i.e., both details on the list that beat him... and how he handled the loss!).
Maybe the victor could sneakily take one of his helldrakes and stick it under his coat as a trophy?
EVIL INC wrote: Which has nothing to do with the out of game behavior of the players which this thread is about.
Did you read the original post? .
did you read any posts AFTER the original post?The OP explained that the issue is not actually with the list itself and explained that the issue is actually with the behavior.
If you hate the game so much, dont play it, hijacking threads to get on a soapbox and preach is not the way to address the issue that the thread is actually about.
The OP has been gien a dozen or more different ways to address the list problem and that issue has been addressed and solved. That is why we have been addressing the real issues that caused him to make the thread to begin with which is the behavior.
5 heldrake list does still have to have 2 full force org charts. That is 2 HQ's and 4 Troops. If he doesn't have that on the table. Politely remind him.
Dunno if it's been said, but a good tactic with Deathwing versus heavy flyer lists is to deepstrike everything close to his table edge.
This only works if he's flying on of course. But when he does, he has to fly past your army, then spend a few turns turning around. All the while you can concentrate on his troops.
Your tau player should be jumping the riptide back and forth in front of his troop choices after every shooting phase. It creates a cover save for those troops. And yes, I know what I said does not make sense, due to flamers denying cover save, but listen to Night Lords player with a single drake, who plays against a HUGE Tau meta in Memphis, aka pay to win central. All the possible wounds the heldrake creates from flame are absorbed into the 2+ riptides leaving the troops behind completely safe. The drake though formidable is not with out its flaws. Riptides and broadsides with EWO and smart missiles ruin their day. Priority of shots matters. Deployment style matters. The drake can only come in from owning players table edge. The max it may fly is 36". Give it no targets to VS. Interceptor happens after movement of the model. Pathfinders should if able focus fire on the space chicken to take jink away with two marker lights. Tau should have an eldar contingent (small) to get a Farseer who can grant reroll to hit with markers to a minimum of two pathfinders. With the eldar take a single squad of dire avengers in a wave to fire volleys of shots into zombies. The Vaul weapon platforms are stupid useful. 90 points for 3 barrage shots, that can ignore cover. These are all valid tactics. Oh and at DFO, you can ally two units. Data slates give you nonrestrictive allies.
Edit: to actually sidebar to a poster, blacksails, the game is not the problem. The player in question has take the time to meticulously understand what the rules allow him to do as you go have mentioned, which I agree. But blaming the rules for not causing fun is hilarious (not funny haha, but funny that is totally lame) to me. We all agree that this is no longer a previous edition, but always comparing it to them does it no justice. I personally only had one game in 3.5, 4th, & 5th ed (each) I enjoyed playing. 6th has given me dramatically more, some I have won, some I have lost by the skin of my teeth. I am in no way saying it is better or worse. But we are a year and a half into this edition, I'm think we can give up on it being 2ed again. Rant done, sorry for any vitriol that came out in that. Once again, sorry for calling a particular poster out.
To OP, flyers do well against other fliers, the eldar crimson hunter has the ability to almost constantly see the aft-hole of the heldrake. Have you considered doing the one rule in the book that tends to be over looked, make house rules. Sometimes trying new, hopefully fair player created rules can create fun for all parties. Sit down as a group, DO NOT ATTACK THAT PLAYER VERBALLY. And see if your players are cool with that idea.
Edit: to actually sidebar to a poster, blacksails, the game is not the problem. The player in question has take the time to meticulously understand what the rules allow him to do as you go have mentioned, which I agree. But blaming the rules for not causing fun is hilarious (not funny haha, but funny that is totally lame) to me. We all agree that this is no longer a previous edition, but always comparing it to them does it no justice. I personally only had one game in 3.5, 4th, & 5th ed (each) I enjoyed playing. 6th has given me dramatically more, some I have won, some I have lost by the skin of my teeth. I am in no way saying it is better or worse. But we are a year and a half into this edition, I'm think we can give up on it being 2ed again. Rant done, sorry for any vitriol that came out in that. Once again, sorry for calling a particular poster out.
Okay, well I never once compared 6th to any other edition, so I don't know where the points about the previous editions come into this.
You seem to have slightly contradicted yourself. You're saying the player is the problem, yet the player is doing what is permitted in the rules (as you've admitted) and I'm assuming also having fun. If his opponent isn't enjoying the game because of totally allowable moves and rules interactions, then it is absolutely the games fault, not the player.
Once more, if you continue to insist the player is at fault, all you're doing is claiming that someone's way of having fun is wrong, and that your way of playing is superior. You can't claim that someone is 'playing the game incorrectly' if everything they've done is permitted in the rule set.
Here's the thing though, the rule set is actually what creates discussions like these in the first place. If the rules were clearer and the codices balanced, we wouldn't be here complaining about this list, or how he used basic cover for his units, or how he moved his units in a tedious fashion. A properly done rule set would eliminate this artificial divide between 'fun, casual and rainbows at all costs' players and 'I'm going to eat your first born child competitive' players. Just take a look at any of the other games on the market or on their forums. These discussions rarely pop up, as 'competitive' and 'casual' don't exist as two different camps of players. There are just players.
So yes, it is absolutely the rules fault. We wouldn't be having this discussion if it wasn't.
Blacksails wrote: So yes, it is absolutely the rules fault. We wouldn't be having this discussion if it wasn't.
The rules allow the list, so sure, the rules are the root of the problem. but really, that's not relevant to the discussion.
He wants tactics about how to deal with the army, and while "don't play that army" and "don't play double force org" are valid, improving your play style to cope with harder lists (without entering an "arms race") is what it seems the thread is for.
useful, and generic, tips (some of which have already been presented) include:
- 2+ armour saves, high toughness and/or AV13/14 (stormravens are only AV12 but a MUCH better flyer than the helldrake and can do wonders against ground targets as well, IG flyers are also good against armour/helldrakes; thunderfire cannons are a great way to reach out and touch units)
- prioritising things that threaten those units (since the list has more than just helldrakes and zombies)
- careful objective placement; where the objectives are determines where the game is going to be played. given his love of hoards and spacing out, where you place the objectives allows you to ignore 1/2 the table (making it hard for him to manoeuvre; better for elite, resilient armies) or play the whole thing (make him fight a battle on both fronts (better for large IG armies that have enough troops and fire power to keep him engaged up and own the table preventing him from focusing on a particular unit with his whole army)
- use plenty of LOS blocking terrain. The rule book recommends LOTS of terrain (10~12 pieces is average) which will make manoeuvring a hoard harder, make finding fire lanes harder for him, and prevent casualties on your part since they can only kill what they can see (so those obliterators can only kill that one crisis suit that couldn't quite get out of LOS even though they're in range of all of them)
yes, the player is indeed at fault. I have looked through the rulebook and tried to find the parts where it specifically states that you must take 20 minute movement phases or trash talk degrading your opponent and steal their miniatures. Feel free to cite those rules and the actual page numbers where the rest of us can find them in the book. I'm willing to bet though that that is a player issue instead of a rule issue though. This is because if it WAS in the rules that you act like that, this particular player would not stand out from the others who also followed the rules.
The list issue has already been solved. Either dont play him, play smaller games, play single force or at the points level or just outcheese him. Problem solved on the list issue. The REAL problem that we are discussing his out of game behaviors while playing the game.
Spaz431 wrote: Your tau player should be jumping the riptide back and forth in front of his troop choices after every shooting phase. It creates a cover save for those troops. And yes, I know what I said does not make sense, due to flamers denying cover save, but listen to Night Lords player with a single drake, who plays against a HUGE Tau meta in Memphis, aka pay to win central. All the possible wounds the heldrake creates from flame are absorbed into the 2+ riptides leaving the troops behind completely safe.
I was curious about it myself. I thought that you placed the small end of the template closest to the model firing itand then only the models actually covered by it took the hits/wounds. Am i correct to think that if the template was simply laid across the models behind the riptide, that the riptide would not even be touched?
@pancakeonions - For the record, I have never played that guy. There may come a day, but it's unlikely since we both have Chaos armies.
@Zarkin - yeah, but it's the zombies they would have to worry about. Even terminators have to watch out for blobs, that could turn into a lot of saves. Not to mention Typhus and his psychic powers...
@Spaz431 - those are good and constructive insights, thanks. We have some house rules at our FLGS, but most of them revolve around things that need to be FAQed. Those sound like great Tau tactics, and I will be sure to mention them sometime. From what I have seen, Tau players spend a lot of time trying to shoot up the zombie horde, and run into firepower issues before the drakes arrive. I think the basic issue is more list composition and not bringing enough anti-air.
I just got back from my FLGS. That guy had been hanging out there earlier today, but did not play a game. He was talking to some other CSM players, which was basically to tell them to buy more Heldrakes and zombies. He also took the time to explain some tactics that revolved around cover and focus fire, which everybody seemed to think were pretty good. A couple of my friends were still talking about it when I got there.
The other thing he did was read through Codex Tyranids, cover to cover. He bought a copy and ordered a bunch of models. He also told some people the Codex seemed very strong.
Perhaps the 6 Heldrake issue gets solved by him switching to another army? Not sure what to expect and wondering what he's going to come back with.
Spaz431 wrote: Your tau player should be jumping the riptide back and forth in front of his troop choices after every shooting phase. It creates a cover save for those troops. And yes, I know what I said does not make sense, due to flamers denying cover save, but listen to Night Lords player with a single drake, who plays against a HUGE Tau meta in Memphis, aka pay to win central. All the possible wounds the heldrake creates from flame are absorbed into the 2+ riptides leaving the troops behind completely safe.
You are saying that if you put a riptide in front of a unit of troops, and the drake shoots the troops behind it, the riptide somehow soaks the wounds?
Here are the ways that would be ineffective:
1) the heldrake can come in at an angle to not worry about it
2) the heldrake can fly over your whole army and toast you from behind.
Now let's see why this doesn't work in the rules:
1) wounds are resolved per-unit. If it hits the riptide and the troops behind it, say covering 6 fire warriors and the riptide, the riptide would take 1 wound and the warriors would take 6. This means that the riptide makes 1 save, and the warriors DIE. They have their own wound pool. The riptide doesn't get to make 7 2+ saves and spare the unit.
2) If you are talking about the IC riptide from farsight enclave, you COULD do this, but the majority toughness in the unit would be 3 or 4 depending on the kind of squad he joined, meaning he would be taking way more wounds than normal and die very quickly.
So no, this is not a good tactic at all and is completely against the rules.
For me if that guy is nice and he has a super ultra cheesy list and really wants to play it, I'm all for it; I can play, lose, learn gel from mistakes and try to come up with a better list. But if the guy is a complete dick I don't care what list he brings. I'll bring a trololol list. If it's the 3500 point game:
1 Phantom Titan (I think ForgeWorld FAQ to allow its use)
1 Farseer on Jetbike with Mantle of the Laughing God
2 Minimum squads of guardian jet bikes
3 Crimson Hunter Exarch
List comes to be around 3400. For anyone else besides jerks, I save the titan for apocalypse.
Point being I don't mind facing super ultra lists for the most part. I find the personality of the player to be a more important factor.
Spaz431 wrote: Your tau player should be jumping the riptide back and forth in front of his troop choices after every shooting phase. It creates a cover save for those troops. And yes, I know what I said does not make sense, due to flamers denying cover save, but listen to Night Lords player with a single drake, who plays against a HUGE Tau meta in Memphis, aka pay to win central. All the possible wounds the heldrake creates from flame are absorbed into the 2+ riptides leaving the troops behind completely safe
I think it's not working like this. Every squad makes saves separately. if there's a wound to a riptide and 5 wounds to fire warriors behind him, riptide takes 1 save and 5 firewarriors die. So actually u're just forcing urself to make an extra save on a riptide...
koooaei wrote: I think it's not working like this. Every squad makes saves separately. if there's a wound to a riptide and 5 wounds to fire warriors behind him, riptide takes 1 save and 5 firewarriors die. So actually u're just forcing urself to make an extra save on a riptide...
The only way for a fire warrior to survive a bale flamer is to have 2 firewarrior buddies on the floor of the ruins above him.
Zarkin wrote: Dunno if it's been said, but a good tactic with Deathwing versus heavy flyer lists is to deepstrike everything close to his table edge.
This only works if he's flying on of course. But when he does, he has to fly past your army, then spend a few turns turning around. All the while you can concentrate on his troops.
That also makes it easier to get the [insert name] attack they get when they fly over you. Dangerous.
Alright, first off, thank you to everyone again for your comments in this thread.
That guy was around again last night. He played against SMs with his 6 Heldrake list. The SM player had a firestorm redoubt with quad lasers, and tailored his list to beat the drakes. He was able to take out 2 of the Heldrakes but that was it. That guy won.
Can someone who understands the rules for the firestorm / vengeance battery confirm some things for me? I honestly don't and think there is some confusion going on here. Here is what I think I know about the fortification.
1) The cannons shoot at BS2. They are automated and cannot be manned. They always shoot at BS2.
2) They have interceptor and can shoot at things when they arrive in the opponent's turn.
3) They have access points. A unit can go into one for cover if they need to.
4) The cannons MUST target the closest MC or flyer each turn. Afterwards, it moves onto ground targets.
5) The cannons are twin linked. You reroll any misses.
6) The fortification is AV12. It can be blown up with meltas.
techsoldaten wrote: Alright, first off, thank you to everyone again for your comments in this thread.
That guy was around again last night. He played against SMs with his 6 Heldrake list. The SM player had a firestorm redoubt with quad lasers, and tailored his list to beat the drakes. He was able to take out 2 of the Heldrakes but that was it. That guy won.
Can someone who understands the rules for the firestorm / vengeance battery confirm some things for me? I honestly don't and think there is some confusion going on here. Here is what I think I know about the fortification.
1) The cannons shoot at BS2. They are automated and cannot be manned. They always shoot at BS2.
2) They have interceptor and can shoot at things when they arrive in the opponent's turn.
3) They have access points. A unit can go into one for cover if they need to.
4) The cannons MUST target the closest MC or flyer each turn. Afterwards, it moves onto ground targets.
5) The cannons are twin linked. You reroll any misses.
6) The fortification is AV12. It can be blown up with meltas.
Heldrakes don't die easily. The 5+ invul can really be bad news. You need more AA that is mobile and not static. Get some marine or IG air cav to help out.
Gangrel767 wrote: why are you guys so set on playing above 1999 point battles?
We all have a lot of models and like to use them. It's just how it is. There are some people who play smaller games, but it's been like 2 years since I have.
fair enough. Personally I enjoy smaller games. We usually play 1500-1850 point battles in my group. The game is much more manageable at that level. You are essentially playing Apocalypse.... bring some titans. lol
Well, my games are pleasant affairs full of charm, wit, good humor and excellently painted models. You know, the kind that get girls.
That guy's games are shrieking, horrid affairs full of arguments, gigantic turns, taunting, open mockery, and picking on people 5 - 10 years younger than him. Models are sometimes missing at the end. People genuinely have bad feelings. I have seen one guy who looked like he was going to cry. They take five-ever because four is not enough.
When people are getting on well, it's not that big a deal having a ton of models on the table, the games go by fast. When there are a lot of models on the table and the other guy wants to look up whether or not your infantry can move on open terrain in the movement phase despite the fact they don't have slow and purposeful or whatever other misinterpretation he wants to waste your time with, it's another matter.
I actually like to play larger games. Seriously, try them with a single force org. that will get rid of things like the 6 drake spam list and will add in an extra element of strategy. Because with multiple orgs, you can just everything in. With a single force org, you will actually have to do some thinking about what you have, what you want to use, what you need to use and so forth.
Use the Stronghold Assault rules and bring plenty of interceptor and skyfire using the fortification option where you get a number of bastions and aegis lines.
Along that, you could also bring in the much maligned (and very useful) void shield. Use a pretty big building (like 12" x 12") in order to cover around 36" x 36" of table space. Put that as close to the middle as you can and all of your objectives and troops within it. His heldrakes won't penetrate it and will be useless as he'll have to go inside to get to you.
@clively - Sounds like good advice. I have been thinking fortifications is the best defence against the Rain of Fire list (which is what we have started calling the 6 heldrakes). I am just not up to speed on the Stronghold Assault rules though, and want to understand a little more before I go spouting off on it.
Some questions:
1) Void shield generator - how does someone take down a void shield? Is it just by shooting at the tower? Can you shoot through a void shield at a unit? What kind of saves does it offer people within the void shield? How does it work against something that is already in the shield - i.e. if a Heldrake is within the range of the shield generator, what kind of protection does that offer the Heldrake and it's target?
2) Fortification option - does this mean people can just start spending points on fortifications?
Johnnytorrance wrote: The way I see it, this is coming from someone with a different army. If he can field it, you need to deal with it. So he has a very Air Force heavy list. You gotta find a way to deal with it. Or don't play the guy.
Tailoring isnt always a viable option, might not even be allowed or even possible.
So deal with it is as productive statement as water is wet.
I don't know if your local IG player has the units or funds to get a bunch of Vendettas and tanks, but Helldrake Spam has lots of trouble tackling mechanized guard armies. I recently beat a list with 3 Helldrakes at 2k points. They didn't even do a whole lot in the game, since I had 2 Vendettas and an Aegis Defense Line + a nice wall of Chimeras full of melta & plasma veterans. Getting in range to hit rear armor of the Chimeras with his flamer templates, meant being in range of basically my whole army. The Chimera heavy flamers would be rather nice against the zombie wave as well!!!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, as other have said, it couldn't do ANYTHING against a new Dark Angel Land Raider Crusader + invulnerable save + bolter salvo spam lists...
Ignore Helldrakes....
One million bolter shots into zombies each round...
They do always hit side armor, but Vendettas + Quad Gun + all the firepower coming from the veterans and Chimeras can be enough to overwhelm most flyers.
If everyone at the store told him "sorry, I only brought a 1500, 1850 point list ... guess we can't play tonight" Remember, you guys have the ultimate veto ... to not play him.
Just a quick update, that guy finally lost a game last night against a CSM list in a 2,500 point game.
There was a little irony to it - the other player had 3 Heldrakes and a ton of plague zombies himself. I wasn't there to see it, but it sounds like Heldrake spam is it's own worst enemy.
I would like to go at this list with perhaps 6-12 griffons to handle the plague zombies, 6 vendettas, and 2 infantry platoons. The vendettas can be loaded up with 4 infantry squads with flamers, and 2 platoon command sections with 4 flamers. I think I could fit all that into 2000 points. I probably wouldn't take 12 griffons ( I don't even have 6!) but there are plenty of other great artillery options for the IG.
techsoldaten wrote: Just a quick update, that guy finally lost a game last night against a CSM list in a 2,500 point game.
There was a little irony to it - the other player had 3 Heldrakes and a ton of plague zombies himself. I wasn't there to see it, but it sounds like Heldrake spam is it's own worst enemy.
I seriously don't understand how you or the community just don't communicate to him how you he's being a bit of dick. Sounds like your putting a lot of effort into beating a guy that is ultimately not worth it since I wouldn't be surprised if you started regularly beating him and then he just changes his army to another version of cheese. Explain to him the purpose of 40k isn't about the winning, its much more than that.
Also to the guy who keeps blaming the rules for this, seriously the rules don't make doushebags his list sure can be legal, but it isn't fun and fun to me is more important than legal lists.
First, Any troops not in Typhus' detachment would have to be non-Zombie. Still easy to fit 2 min cultist units into the non typhus detachment to handle the requirements though, if that's what he does.
At 2500 points, new Nids could tailor a list to shred a 6 drake dual FOC list:
HQ:
4 Dakka Flyrants, 2 have Hive Commander
Troops:
2 Units of 30 Termigants
2 Tervigons w/Thorax templates
Fast Attack:
4 Crones
2 Harpies w/Stranglethorns
Honestly, not a fun list to play, but if someone is going to bring 6 drakes to the table knowingly, I'm going to counter with something like that. If we go to 3k-3500, ill bring mawlocs to handle the zombies too. Nids can also play the board covering game.. Oval bases available in every FOC slot
Typhus, 6 drakes and 120 zombies clocks in at just under 1800... What else is he using besides that core? It's too easy to list tailor for drakes if you know what is coming, he must fill his army out with other stuff to counter the anti drake units??
Valiant SoR wrote: I seriously don't understand how you or the community just don't communicate to him how you he's being a bit of dick. Sounds like your putting a lot of effort into beating a guy that is ultimately not worth it since I wouldn't be surprised if you started regularly beating him and then he just changes his army to another version of cheese. Explain to him the purpose of 40k isn't about the winning, its much more than that.
Also to the guy who keeps blaming the rules for this, seriously the rules don't make doushebags his list sure can be legal, but it isn't fun and fun to me is more important than legal lists.
The reason is that many players have mentality that if you refuse the game, it's effectively a game lost, especially when deep down inside you know that you really can't handle that list.
If I had problems against something like that, I'd try to kitbash some Hyperios platforms (you'll probably need a lot of them), simply because it's relatively easy and may be cheap enough in real money, especially if you already have bits that can pass for launchers (magnetized cyclone launchers anyone?). Ofc that "strategy" will fall apart if your FLGS is very demanding when it comes to official GW/FW models and WYSIWYG ("dude, Hyperios launchers are nothing like Cyclones!"). I'm suggesting this because you probably won't be willing to buy a lot of stuff or kitbash complex models just to beat one TFG.
Other than that, you may try to use something AA that can shoot zombies effectively when nothing is in the air. Also using some generic fortifications that can hide your template bearers at least from vector strikes while shooting at drakes is useful.
P.S. Really I think that the reason Helldrake spam is that scary is that a majority of AA in basic codexes is either ineffective or doesn't do anything to win you games that don't have a lot of enemy flyers. Maybe I'm just too inexperienced.
Build the hypios launchers out of drinking straws enclosed by cardboard. Maybe find a guard player who has extra missiles from the heavy weapons teams or just a few spare ones from somewhere to stick in the ends of some of the straws. That will work if they get pissy about cyclones not being big enough.
The easiest way to stop the guy flat out besides refusing to play him is telling him sure, no double force orgs. Perfectly reasonable and it puts the ball in his court so that HE looks like the bad guy if he refuses.
If money doesn't matter and I want to beat a 6 Helldrake list I would field 5 Land Raiders, put all my Troops in there and clear the field with them while the helldrakes do exactly nothing. Do it all the times and this guy wont have fun anymore.
I'm sure that there are enough players with land raiders in your area that they could loan them for that purpose. From the way you tell it, they would be more than happy to.
maybe counts as them all as redeemers. lol
Use the new Stronghold Assault And bring and Imperial Strongpoint. I'm running 2 Bastions and 4 Aegis, all with Quadguns. 550pts worth of This is my airspace. Plus a ton of 4+ cover saves. Throw in an extra 30 pts and make a line of Dangerous Terrain 4 inches in front of the Defence Line and watch the horde of zombies get a couple of rounds of overwatch fire. And this works for anyone..other than Tyranids I guess.
I have to agree with the 'player is the problem' argument.
It's his choice to use the broken parts of the rules, he's not being /forced/ by GW to take a 6 Heldrake double force org, and he's not being /forced/ by GW to give his units firing lines through groups of zombies. That is his judgment to try and play such a cheesy army.
There's a reason not all of us play Heldrakes. Because it's our choice to pick an army we like, not an army who we can exploit. I play Black Tide Templars. I don't do well, but I love watching 40 marines charging up the field at the enemy, and watching the enemy crap themselves about it. He clearly loves beating them into submission with OP and ridiculous army lists, and paying to win.
It's his choice to use the broken parts of the rules, he's not being /forced/ by GW to take a 6 Heldrake double force org, and he's not being /forced/ by GW to give his units firing lines through groups of zombies. That is his judgment to try and play such a cheesy army.
There's a reason not all of us play Heldrakes. Because it's our choice to pick an army we like, not an army who we can exploit. I play Black Tide Templars. I don't do well, but I love watching 40 marines charging up the field at the enemy, and watching the enemy crap themselves about it. He clearly loves beating them into submission with OP and ridiculous army lists, and paying to win.
This is his choice.
There are two parts to the problem.
The first is the player's attitude/personality. If he's a generally unpleasant person and ruins games through his social skills (lack thereof) than its obviously a player issue.
The second is the list/game. If the reason a game was unpleasant was due to the list, its the game's fault for allowing such a list to be legal.
There are obvious solutions to this exact list which have been stated multiple times now, but blaming the player for taking 6 Heldrakes ignores the real problem. Players making choices to bring strong units is merely a symptom of awful balance, both internally and externally. That's not even touching on whether or not the player question may genuinely love the model and wants as many as possible to represent a concentrated force of them working together.
The only time it should be acceptable to blame the player is through the actions outside of the game or where they break the parameters of the game.
A player with a legal list who plays within the rules and is otherwise friendly and sociable shouldn't be punished and ostracized purely on the contents of their list. Obviously compromises should be struck within the game group, but its not always possible for any number of reasons. Besides, if you expect other players to play by your preferred standards, style, and power level, why shouldn't other people expect the same of you?
nareik wrote: It will be interesting to see what he does with these nids on the table once he gets his 3 colours on them.
.
18 Carnifexes.
Seriously, it sounds like this guy is king DBag. The obvious answer to the problem is don't play him. Barring that, SM Air Cav, Icarus lascannons and/or Deathwing should put him in his place.
On another note, its the player, not the game. Is GW culpable for allowing this stupid Gak in game? Yes.
Should the player in question hold some responsibility to not literally ruin everyone else's gaming experience by exploiting GWs lack of product quality and generally acting like a horses ass? Double yes.
@Martel Not every gamer is here to powergame. Plenty of players will and do self nerf to ensure both parties have fun playing a game of toy soldiers. I know because people at my FLGS do every weekend. Myself included.
I have had the amusing thought that the Tyranid response to this would be hilarious. You brought 6 Heldrakes? Cute. I brought 6 Crones. Vector Strikes ahoy! If anything I'd favour crones in that match up. That's before you mention the 4 Twin-devourer Flyrants that would be tagging along.
Valiant SoR wrote: I seriously don't understand how you or the community just don't communicate to him how you he's being a bit of dick.
Yeah, and what is the point of that? People have spent time talking to him, he's set in his ways. You seem to think talking changes people's behaviors.
Valiant SoR wrote: Sounds like your putting a lot of effort into beating a guy that is ultimately not worth it since I wouldn't be surprised if you started regularly beating him and then he just changes his army to another version of cheese. Explain to him the purpose of 40k isn't about the winning, its much more than that.
Also to the guy who keeps blaming the rules for this, seriously the rules don't make doushebags his list sure can be legal, but it isn't fun and fun to me is more important than legal lists.
Thank you for the feedback. Bottom line is he's a dick / douchebag / whatever name you want to call him, but he's our dick / douchebag / whatever. There is nothing wrong with a discussion about the tactics of taking on 6 Heldrakes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Barrogh wrote: P.S. Really I think that the reason Helldrake spam is that scary is that a majority of AA in basic codexes is either ineffective or doesn't do anything to win you games that don't have a lot of enemy flyers. Maybe I'm just too inexperienced.
From what I can tell, most people don't bring enough of it.
Seriously, it sounds like this guy is king DBag. The obvious answer to the problem is don't play him. Barring that, SM Air Cav, Icarus lascannons and/or Deathwing should put him in his place.
On another note, its the player, not the game. Is GW culpable for allowing this stupid Gak in game? Yes.
Should the player in question hold some responsibility to not literally ruin everyone else's gaming experience by exploiting GWs lack of product quality and generally acting like a horses ass? Double yes.
Yeah, that guy has some serious personality defects. But he's honestly not the worst person who shows up at my FLGS.
Saying that he's ruining other people's games is too strong a way of putting it. It's more that he can't grasp the fun part of 40k, it's just a different concept for him.
Principled stands don't really address the question of how do you beat this otherwise legal list. All respect, but this is not about when to walk away from a game or how to put someone in their place.
Well, you have been given more than a doen ways to handle the issue. It is up to you to decide whether to wor to solve the issue using the effective tools you ave been given or to let it go on. The ball is pretty much in your court.
let us know how it turns out if you choose to solve it.
We have given each and every possiblility of what lists and counters to take as well as given him all the possible advice and measures of how to solve the issue. The ball is in his court. Literally, there is no more advice or possible lcounter lists to give him that hasnt already been posted. either he will take action or not.
Heavy vauls support battery with 3 shadow weavers-90
Comes to 2k exactly and has 9 serpents with SL/SC you don't need holo fields because vector strike and flamers ignore them, Good luck winning with no flyers by turn 3 and after that his blobs die fast.
Meching up wouldn't hurt... until the last turn. Medium strength and no bonus to the Damage table makes any given Drake unlikely to destroy a Vehicle. If you have an army with access to plentiful transports, that would solve a great deal of the trouble.
I haven't played a Double FOC game in 6th, the casual store limit is 1850 pts... but as a Guard player, I usually have a Vendetta, a Quad-gun, and a couple of units to "Twin-link" weapons, so even though they're snap-shooting at flyers, they still have a decent chance to hit.
Using a Skyshield Landing pad should hypothetically cut his damage in half, to the units on top, unless that's been changed in the latest releases.
Hmm. take any HQ then use/proxy 6 units of assault cent in LRC/LRR and for troops take whatever and there you have it, his heldrakes cant touch any LRs and you assault cents couldn't care less and as for zombies they be fearless so you get to slaughter them all mwuahahha.
I saw it said earlier, but get people to play 1850 or something.
Or just use anti TFG tactics. Have a tailored list ready and just let people use it over and over against him until things start to sink in. Don't play him with any other list. Make sure it's a boring spammy list too. No exciting moving parts, just a spam of an anti-flyer, and a spam of zombie solution. Skipped too much of the thread to see what army you play, but I'm sure those possibilities have been mentioned.
SURELY, he'll eventually say something about "not wanting to face the same boring list again," at which point you can say NEITHER DO WE!
Tell him he should play with the big boys in a tourney.
Just play cron air n zap him out of the air with scythes
I'm not currently playing CSM, I'm glad you think about me a lot though! . Also, it's "Dalymiddleboro" and I don't GT much but I have put away a few RTs!
I think the 6-helldrake list exemplifies what is wrong with 40k.
- Take the best model in the codex
- Take 6 of that model.
Helldrake is a good unit in its own right, being durable in multiple ways (AV12 when most anti-air is S7, flyer for snap shots, 3 HP, regenerate and ward save) as well as deadly in a large number of ways (moderate combat ability via vector strike, AP3 flamer to kill all except TEQ, with 360* torrent to effectively counter flyer's supposed lack of maneuverability.
Which overall means that it is good against 99% of army lists, while 99% of lists need to be tailored to beat it.
Luckily with Tau I'm in a decent position to beat an army like this - because Riptides and Broadsides suffer from the same 'problem' as helldrakes.
I'd take something like:
5 riptides (Fusion Blasters, Ion Cannon, Skyfire, Interceptor) ~1000pts
3x3 Broadsides, Interceptor. ~750.
Commander w/ PENC, Marker Drones, Iridium Armour
Lots of outflanking Kroot
A few pathfinders
2x Sky Rays
I should be able to make a sizable dent in his lines with first turn shooting. Broadsides alone could take out ~45 zombies on average.
RIptides move up to center field. Don't leave anywhere safe for the bastards to come on.
Turn 2, if I had first turn, I could potentially have WON by now.
4 Helldrakes come on. Each riptide can nearly knock out a helldrake, each skyray takes a helldrae and each broadside squad half a helldrake. He can't hurt anything seriously.
Turn 3, I mop up. High probability ot tabling opponent by this stage as helldrakes with locked velocity fall off the board..
Trasvi wrote: I think the 6-helldrake list exemplifies what is wrong with 40k.
- Take the best model in the codex
- Take 6 of that model.
Helldrake is a good unit in its own right, being durable in multiple ways (AV12 when most anti-air is S7, flyer for snap shots, 3 HP, regenerate and ward save) as well as deadly in a large number of ways (moderate combat ability via vector strike, AP3 flamer to kill all except TEQ, with 360* torrent to effectively counter flyer's supposed lack of maneuverability.
Which overall means that it is good against 99% of army lists, while 99% of lists need to be tailored to beat it.
Luckily with Tau I'm in a decent position to beat an army like this - because Riptides and Broadsides suffer from the same 'problem' as helldrakes.
I'd take something like:
5 riptides (Fusion Blasters, Ion Cannon, Skyfire, Interceptor) ~1000pts
3x3 Broadsides, Interceptor. ~750.
Commander w/ PENC, Marker Drones, Iridium Armour
Lots of outflanking Kroot
A few pathfinders
2x Sky Rays
I should be able to make a sizable dent in his lines with first turn shooting. Broadsides alone could take out ~45 zombies on average.
RIptides move up to center field. Don't leave anywhere safe for the bastards to come on.
Turn 2, if I had first turn, I could potentially have WON by now.
4 Helldrakes come on. Each riptide can nearly knock out a helldrake, each skyray takes a helldrae and each broadside squad half a helldrake. He can't hurt anything seriously.
Turn 3, I mop up. High probability ot tabling opponent by this stage as helldrakes with locked velocity fall off the board..
hmm.. really tempted to try this now.
Beating cheese with even more cheese just creates an even bigger problem. That's like introducing Cane Toads to take care of Cane Beetles. We all know how that worked out...
I honestly fail to see how the LGS players are failing to beat him with his faildrake list. It's not like he changes it up every game, or tailors his list, he's literally bringing the same list every time.
Spam AA, which is plentiful come start of 2014. If this was 2013, I'd understand this thread, but how difficult is it to come up with a decent AA list post Stronghold Assault with a ground assault element to wipe zombies?
Are you honestly telling me you can't beat a player who looks at the Tyranid codex... and then buys a few models, with the conclusion it's a strong codex?
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: I honestly fail to see how the LGS players are failing to beat him with his faildrake list. It's not like he changes it up every game, or tailors his list, he's literally bringing the same list every time.
Spam AA, which is plentiful come start of 2014. If this was 2013, I'd understand this thread, but how difficult is it to come up with a decent AA list post Stronghold Assault with a ground assault element to wipe zombies?
Are you honestly telling me you can't beat a player who looks at the Tyranid codex... and then buys a few models, with the conclusion it's a strong codex?
Exactly. You don't even need a cheesy list at all to beat this. This list is very unbalanced and too easy to make a hard counter.
Trasvi wrote: I think the 6-helldrake list exemplifies what is wrong with 40k.
- Take the best model in the codex
- Take 6 of that model.
Helldrake is a good unit in its own right, being durable in multiple ways (AV12 when most anti-air is S7, flyer for snap shots, 3 HP, regenerate and ward save) as well as deadly in a large number of ways (moderate combat ability via vector strike, AP3 flamer to kill all except TEQ, with 360* torrent to effectively counter flyer's supposed lack of maneuverability.
Which overall means that it is good against 99% of army lists, while 99% of lists need to be tailored to beat it.
Luckily with Tau I'm in a decent position to beat an army like this - because Riptides and Broadsides suffer from the same 'problem' as helldrakes.
I'd take something like:
5 riptides (Fusion Blasters, Ion Cannon, Skyfire, Interceptor) ~1000pts
3x3 Broadsides, Interceptor. ~750.
Commander w/ PENC, Marker Drones, Iridium Armour
Lots of outflanking Kroot
A few pathfinders
2x Sky Rays
I should be able to make a sizable dent in his lines with first turn shooting. Broadsides alone could take out ~45 zombies on average.
RIptides move up to center field. Don't leave anywhere safe for the bastards to come on.
Turn 2, if I had first turn, I could potentially have WON by now.
4 Helldrakes come on. Each riptide can nearly knock out a helldrake, each skyray takes a helldrae and each broadside squad half a helldrake. He can't hurt anything seriously.
Turn 3, I mop up. High probability ot tabling opponent by this stage as helldrakes with locked velocity fall off the board..
hmm.. really tempted to try this now.
Beating cheese with even more cheese just creates an even bigger problem. That's like introducing Cane Toads to take care of Cane Beetles. We all know how that worked out...
They're now increasing the population of Meat Ants by feeding them cat food to eat the Cane Toads! Apparently all the local fauna just run away when Meat Ants try to eat them but Cane Toads just stop and play dead.... Introduce toad to kill bug > Feed bug to kill toad. Surely there will be no negative consequences this time!
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: I honestly fail to see how the LGS players are failing to beat him with his faildrake list. It's not like he changes it up every game, or tailors his list, he's literally bringing the same list every time.
Spam AA, which is plentiful come start of 2014. If this was 2013, I'd understand this thread, but how difficult is it to come up with a decent AA list post Stronghold Assault with a ground assault element to wipe zombies?
Are you honestly telling me you can't beat a player who looks at the Tyranid codex... and then buys a few models, with the conclusion it's a strong codex?
I think the problem comes down to the fact no one really builds really strong AA armies. 3 Heldrakes is one thing, 6 is another. A few turrets or units with Skyfire is not really the answer.
I bet you could have seen this coming... now he's got his Tyranid army all painted up. It's built around Flyrants and he's 'playtesting' it.
Last weekend, he was in the shop asking people if they were willing to do a doubles match with him playing CSM and Tyranids. You know, play 2 armies at the same time since they can't ally.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: I honestly fail to see how the LGS players are failing to beat him with his faildrake list. It's not like he changes it up every game, or tailors his list, he's literally bringing the same list every time.
Spam AA, which is plentiful come start of 2014. If this was 2013, I'd understand this thread, but how difficult is it to come up with a decent AA list post Stronghold Assault with a ground assault element to wipe zombies?
Are you honestly telling me you can't beat a player who looks at the Tyranid codex... and then buys a few models, with the conclusion it's a strong codex?
If people are failing with a tailored list, that's one problem. But a lot of people hate tailoring lists. The helldrake/zombie combo is a decent power build and will perform decently against a wide range of armies, but you need to build a specifically heavy anti air list to beat it.
One of the easiest ways to make a power list in 40k is to take as many as possible of the best units you can. A normal take-all-comers list might have 3 anti-air units in the list and be able to deal with 1 average flyer per turn. If you take 6 of the toughest flyers in the game, that is near impossible to deal with. Some lists (eg daemons) struggle to deal with even one flyer due to lack of solid anti-air shooting.
Exactly. You don't even need a cheesy list at all to beat this. This list is very unbalanced and too easy to make a hard counter.
Easy to *make* a hard counter... but most lists won't be a hard counter. Thus, the cheese list.
The Tau list is probably actually fairly competitive against most other armies though - riptides and broadsides excel against a wide range of targets, especially if you take them in the formation.
I'd plain ignore drakes. It's never a good thing to focus on killing specific hard stuff. Here you spam lotsa aa and manage to beat 6 drakes winning 11 to 9 but next game you face a greentide with 0 flyers and they stomp you into the ground.
But if you got a few landraiders or a bunch of battlewagonz you can plain ignore most of his army and concentrate on killing zombies. Even if u're a regular sm player. 2 landraiders with vanguard vets and/or honor guards are gona plain annihilate his scoring in a few turns.
Easy to *make* a hard counter... but most lists won't be a hard counter. Thus, the cheese list.
The Tau list is probably actually fairly competitive against most other armies though - riptides and broadsides excel against a wide range of targets, especially if you take them in the formation.
Yeah, if people had unlimited resources and could just bring whatever they want, I am sure this army would not be so tough to beat. That's not the reality for most people tho. His opponents either don't have the models to counter him, or underestimate the mechanics of this list. He's also bringing Obliterators, preds, Typhus, some Plague Marines, and other units as part of the list, I have just talked about the cheesy parts in this thread.
That guy's record stands at something like 24-2. He lost once against CSMs and once against Tau. In both cases, the mission was The Relic.
How many points is the game? Because at 2000 square after Typhus, 120 Plague Zombies, a bare naked Nurgle Lord (to satisfy the minimum FoC requirements) and 6 Heldrakes he's only got 130 points to spend on anything else.
They're now increasing the population of Meat Ants by feeding them cat food to eat the Cane Toads! Apparently all the local fauna just run away when Meat Ants try to eat them but Cane Toads just stop and play dead.... Introduce toad to kill bug > Feed bug to kill toad. Surely there will be no negative consequences this time!
Wow I can't imagine anything going wrong by intentionally pushing the population of voracious ants! *insert sarcasm*
Storm Ravens, Vendettas, Riptides/Broadsides, having a 2+ armor save, Anything that throws lots of dice (Eldar Wave Serpents), Hydras, the Necron Bakery...
I can understand some Xenos armies (like Orks or Dark Eldar) being annoyed, but even still, Dakkajets can probably deal with them when combined with lootas...
At 2500-3000 how is it so hard to fight this? Goodness me take 6 CMs on bikes with AA and power mauls and just murder them while the drakes fly around and do nothing........
I would think of a Necron List based on tesla. Tesla Immortals for troops, then annihilation barges for heavy support. Doomsday arks may be viable, those large blasts will love zombies. Also a nightscythe spam to counter the heldrakes.
For Tyranids, Flyrants, Crones, and possibly even harpies would have a good time against that list. Tyrannofexes with acid spray shieled by gaunt screens would have a great time. Mawlocs would punch holes in the zombie blobs, but are probably not the best thing to take in this situation.
Tying up the zombie blobs with fearless gaunts will help too.
As stated earlier in the thread, I am looking for ideas about how to deal with this list using non-Chaos armies. It's easy to say just take X unit / fortification / special rule / weapon and you are all good. In practice, tho, results have been wildly different.
@Arbiter - Thank you for the heads up. Necron Bakery - other people have mentioned this, and a couple people at my FLGS are playing what they call a bakery. Can you help me understand what this is specifically?
@Fragile, @Veteran of The Long War - you would think that. Played properly, lists with 6 Heldrakes and 100+ zombies are pretty tough. They tarpit across the board and strike at your backlines while support units take out anything else that matters. It is tough to take out squads of 20 zombies efficiently, I have seen him play in games where none of those units go down.
That Guy is a skilled player who does know how to work the rules to his advantage. Tediously. I have seen him drag out a movement phase over 30 minutes on several occasions. I only mention this because part of his game is about making it very hard to shoot at his units.
@Der Metzgermeister - it's funny you mention Tyranids, That Guy just bought a huge Tyranid army. From all accounts, it's the same thing - lots of cheap ground troops, lots of flying things, and a couple strong HQ units. I haven't seen him play it, but supposedly it's the same strategy. He's 5 - 0 right now with it.
Just to be clear, no one at my FLGS really likes That Guy so much as tolerates him. I would not call him a WAAC player so much as a spam player.
How many Flyrants can you take in a 2k+ point list with Double FOC? And how about crones?
techsoldaten wrote: Y I have seen him drag out a movement phase over 30 minutes on several occasions. I only mention this because part of his game is about making it very hard to shoot at his units.
There is no excuse for a 30 minute movement phase. That is just downright dickish and more than enough reason to tell him to take a long walk off a short pier. I have seen Green Tide and Swarm-nid players get their movement phase done in less than a third that time at similar points values. Hells, the 20k a side Apocalypse game I was in a few weeks back had quicker movement phases (in all honesty the longest turn phases were shooting and assault) and that was moving a total of close to five hundred gaunts and hormagaunts across the field, if not more.
How many Flyrants can you take in a 2k+ point list with Double FOC? And how about crones?
You can have 2 Flyrants and 3 Crones/Harpies in a FOC, so that's 4/6 in double FOC for a total of 10 FMC's. However that would be around 1800-1900 points, so you'd struggle to squeeze in mandatory troops unless you were playing 2500+ pts.
I'd actually love to see that Nid list fight his Heldrake spam. That's alot of S6 Skyfire and S8 vector striking, not to mention all the options for massed template attacks to kill zombies. Crones have an S6 flamer that will negate FNP, and Flyrants can take a Fleshbane template weapon for just 10pts. Throw in some double-template Tyrannofexes it would be quite a massacre.
The necron air force consists of (normal FOC) 5 x5 necron warriors in night scythes, then 3 MORE night scythes for heavy, with a basic necron lord, pretty simple and cheesy as hell.
I can't believe no one at op's flgs can figure out how to counter 6 heldrakes and spammed zombies. tell them to get acquainted with skyfire, blast templates, and baleflamer stats.
There is no excuse for a 30 minute movement phase. That is just downright dickish and more than enough reason to tell him to take a long walk off a short pier. I have seen Green Tide and Swarm-nid players get their movement phase done in less than a third that time at similar points values. Hells, the 20k a side Apocalypse game I was in a few weeks back had quicker movement phases (in all honesty the longest turn phases were shooting and assault) and that was moving a total of close to five hundred gaunts and hormagaunts across the field, if not more.
Tell me about it. The guy sweats the placement of every single model. I have never played him, but have had to watch this in action multiple times. Other players will walk out to get refreshments during his movement phases, that's how long they can be.
He plays the game like a typewriter. Everything is mechanical, he's looking at the angles of his troops relative to scenery, he's making sure the units out in front are providing full cover for everything behind them, he's creating focus fire for everything in front of them, he's looking at psychic ranges, etc. He keeps 3 tape measures on him at all times and has no problem with measuring his opponents units to see how far they can get in the next turn. He has been in arguments with other players telling them they can't move as far as they did because he measured it for them during his movement phase. Doesn't matter if he's right or not, it's just plain rude.
But mostly he's positioning units so the enemy has to come to him. The most frustrating part about all this - his army doesn't ever move that far. That Guy is all about having the enemy close enough that he can do something to them the turn the Heldrakes start popping in. His troops don't move too far past his deployment zone most of the game.
And BTW, he NEVER forgets things like checks for damage from warpflame gargoyles, it will not die rolls, boon rolls, etc. If there's something that needs to happen at the top of the turn, he has his dice in hand before you are done with assaults. He's telling opponents all the things that are about to go wrong with their armies the entire game, to the point where other people are forgetting their special stuff. I saw a Tau player forget to shoot with half his troops once there was so much dialog going on.
Don't get me started about what represents a cocked die to him. Unless it's flat, it didn't count. He can't process that a 2 degree incline is not grounds for rerolling a die. It's incredible.
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xttz wrote: You can have 2 Flyrants and 3 Crones/Harpies in a FOC, so that's 4/6 in double FOC for a total of 10 FMC's. However that would be around 1800-1900 points, so you'd struggle to squeeze in mandatory troops unless you were playing 2500+ pts.
I'd actually love to see that Nid list fight his Heldrake spam. That's alot of S6 Skyfire and S8 vector striking, not to mention all the options for massed template attacks to kill zombies. Crones have an S6 flamer that will negate FNP, and Flyrants can take a Fleshbane template weapon for just 10pts. Throw in some double-template Tyrannofexes it would be quite a massacre.
That sounds about right. I haven't seen his new army, but I heard it has about 10 FMCs. He has a couple big HQ units on the ground, and everything else is small bugs.
He's been playing people really hard with them. We do play around 2500 - 3000 points in most games, so I gather all his power in that list is in the air.
Something else maybe you could help me with. A Tau player was complaining to me about an argument he got into with That Guy over markerlights. Are markerlights supposed to ground FMCs? The house rule is yes, That Guy was livid about it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
sand.zzz wrote: I can't believe no one at op's flgs can figure out how to counter 6 heldrakes and spammed zombies. tell them to get acquainted with skyfire, blast templates, and baleflamer stats.
The reasons for this are complex:
- Most people don't build armies to fight massed anti-air. The massed zombies are what they focus on, and they are resilient.
- The people who do aren't getting great results with what they have.
For example: a Space Marine player had a firestorm redoubt with quad lasers along with a dedicated anti-air vehicle. He downed 2 of the Heldrakes, the others tore up the rest of his forces in the backfield. He came into the game thinking the FR is a silver bullet that was just going to sort things with the Heldrakes, it wasn't nearly that effective.
Everyone knows That Guy's list is a problem but he still gets away with winning. He has lost 2 games since I started this thread, but he's probably won 8 others.
My most effective counter to Heldrakes is my Punisher Vulture; I've only had to fight a three-Heldrake list, praise be to the Emperor, but I downed two with the Vulture and the last got hit with a lucky shot in the behind with a grenade launcher and exploded.
Spamming AA isn't necessarily going to help since the Heldrakes and the zombie horde are focused on air to ground (unless he's foregoing the baleflamer for the gun, any word on the weapon distribution amongst the Heldrakes?); I doubt this list would have an easy time with Flyer-heavy Necrons or Guard (my Punisher Vulture will reliably down two flyers a game with Vector Dancer to get into their rear arc), or Space Marines for that matter. The zombies aren't much of a problem for Elysians if you take out the Heldrakes, drop enough MRP templates on them and they will go down.
The biggest problem with fighting this list is that you're probably going to have to throw a lot of money at your army to down it.
Tell me about it. The guy sweats the placement of every single model. I have never played him, but have had to watch this in action multiple times. Other players will walk out to get refreshments during his movement phases, that's how long they can be.
He plays the game like a typewriter. Everything is mechanical, he's looking at the angles of his troops relative to scenery, he's making sure the units out in front are providing full cover for everything behind them, he's creating focus fire for everything in front of them, he's looking at psychic ranges, etc. He keeps 3 tape measures on him at all times and has no problem with measuring his opponents units to see how far they can get in the next turn. He has been in arguments with other players telling them they can't move as far as they did because he measured it for them during his movement phase. Doesn't matter if he's right or not, it's just plain rude.
But mostly he's positioning units so the enemy has to come to him. The most frustrating part about all this - his army doesn't ever move that far. That Guy is all about having the enemy close enough that he can do something to them the turn the Heldrakes start popping in. His troops don't move too far past his deployment zone most of the game.
And BTW, he NEVER forgets things like checks for damage from warpflame gargoyles, it will not die rolls, boon rolls, etc. If there's something that needs to happen at the top of the turn, he has his dice in hand before you are done with assaults. He's telling opponents all the things that are about to go wrong with their armies the entire game, to the point where other people are forgetting their special stuff. I saw a Tau player forget to shoot with half his troops once there was so much dialog going on.
Don't get me started about what represents a cocked die to him. Unless it's flat, it didn't count. He can't process that a 2 degree incline is not grounds for rerolling a die. It's incredible.
You know, up until you mentioned Heldrakes, I thought you might be talking about me. Where do you guys play at? Other than the 'telling you what you're doing wrong tactically' thing, sounds like someone I'd like to get a game in with.
In all seriousness, although I would prefer a careful, measured game where both opponents are trying to win, and are playing competitively, I can definitely understand how it can be incredibly frustrating to show up for a casual/fluffy game and not be able to get the other guy to do anything other than hardcore competition all the time.
I guess I'm confused on a couple of the points, though. How is not forgetting must-occur events a bad thing? Or did I misunderstand? (A complete possibility.) And I TOTALLY agree with him on the die rolls. I've seen too many opponents who decide that slanted dice are a little TOO cocked when it's a bad roll, but perfectly fine when it's a good roll. Letting the only rolls that count be perfectly flat rolls on the open table solves that particular shenanigan.
Jimsolo 571387 6559350 wrote:
I guess I'm confused on a couple of the points, though. How is not forgetting must-occur events a bad thing? Or did I misunderstand? (A complete possibility.) And I TOTALLY agree with him on the die rolls. I've seen too many opponents who decide that slanted dice are a little TOO cocked when it's a bad roll, but perfectly fine when it's a good roll. Letting the only rolls that count be perfectly flat rolls on the open table solves that particular shenanigan.
+1
Unless a dice lands entirely flat on open field, it's cocked. Screwing around with "It's not cocked because it's a 6", "Its not cocked because another die won't slide off the top" is just frustrating and wastes everyone's time.
Jimsolo 571387 6559350 wrote:
I guess I'm confused on a couple of the points, though. How is not forgetting must-occur events a bad thing? Or did I misunderstand? (A complete possibility.) And I TOTALLY agree with him on the die rolls. I've seen too many opponents who decide that slanted dice are a little TOO cocked when it's a bad roll, but perfectly fine when it's a good roll. Letting the only rolls that count be perfectly flat rolls on the open table solves that particular shenanigan.
+1
Unless a dice lands entirely flat on open field, it's cocked. Screwing around with "It's not cocked because it's a 6", "Its not cocked because another die won't slide off the top" is just frustrating and wastes everyone's time.
Best strategy? Roll into a spare box. Dice don't escape, they don't land on terrain, and they almost never land in a debatable position.
Something else maybe you could help me with. A Tau player was complaining to me about an argument he got into with That Guy over markerlights. Are markerlights supposed to ground FMCs? The house rule is yes, That Guy was livid about it.
I can't see anything in the rules to prevent it. Markerlights are shooting attacks, and shooting attacks cause Grounding Checks. It's just as dumb as lasguns grounding something like a Harridan they can't even wound, but hey that's 40k.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: I honestly fail to see how the LGS players are failing to beat him with his faildrake list. It's not like he changes it up every game, or tailors his list, he's literally bringing the same list every time.
Spam AA, which is plentiful come start of 2014. If this was 2013, I'd understand this thread, but how difficult is it to come up with a decent AA list post Stronghold Assault with a ground assault element to wipe zombies?
Are you honestly telling me you can't beat a player who looks at the Tyranid codex... and then buys a few models, with the conclusion it's a strong codex?
Couldnt agree more.
Heldrakes arent all that. I dont understand why people are so terrified of them. Unless you're running an all power armour, all footslogging marine list, 6 heldrakes is incredibly inefficient list design. Just take some AA. Proxy if you have to, there's *loads* off stuff out there now that'll blow them out of the sky with interceptor.
Or just ignore his heldrakes and beat him on the ground. 6 Heldrakes is not a strong list. Even in the heyday of heldrakes I think 6 would have been far too many to be efficient.
Take insane amounts of autocannons as ig or any other army that has s7 ap4 double or more shot guns. I know ig can spam ac on thier troops, tanks, flyers?
U will rely on sheer volume of fire to chew thru zombies n drakes.
If i was csm n had to fight that list then i would cry since i could only take ac on helbrutes n havocs. Brutes get vector striked n havocs cant hide from baleflamers.
Don;t understand why so many people feel that this guy needs to justify his list. He's not a GW games developer, and he's picked a legal list that he feels will give him the best chance to win the game.
If you're worried about not being able to beat him, then don't play him. Just because you think that 6 Heldrakes is cheese doesn't invalidate his legal list.
I find that it's mostly Space Marine players that get all hot and bothered by Heldrakes because they hate to see their invincible superhumans get toasted so easily, which is maybe why the people at your GW aren't having 'fun'. So yeah, take terminators. Daemons, flying circus?
I would bring my AV13 necron parking lot list. He doesn't seem to have any anti tank outside of vector strike, which will only glance my vehicles on a 6.
The list is pretty much:
2 night scythes with 5 dudes
3 ghost arks filled with dudes
3 annihilation barges
I think I could get a 3rd scythe in there. Sometimes I bring a CCB, but it wouldn't do much vs this list. The tesseract ark could have some fun with its straight beam weapon. Gauss from the warriors would ignore the t-shirt, but they still get the FnP, no biggie. It will be 30 shots a turn in rapid fire range.
Daemons could be interesting to play against it. A GUO would be nearly untouchable. Some torrent soul grinders would feel right at home too. Again, vector strike would only glance on a 6, and soul grinders have skyfire, glancing on 5s. I doubt they would take down more than one or two though.
I probably wouldn't play him, just for how long it would take him to move every turn.
I probably wouldn't play him, just for how long it would take him to move every turn.
In which case, all horde armies [foot Guard, Orks and Nids] should be banned.
Horde armies can get their movement phase at that point level out of the way in less than 30 minutes. Dragging your movement phase on that long is suspicious. Like I aid, a 20k point Apocalypse game featuring close to 500 Gaunts finished its movement phase quicker than that.
I probably wouldn't play him, just for how long it would take him to move every turn.
In which case, all horde armies [foot Guard, Orks and Nids] should be banned.
Horde armies can get their movement phase at that point level out of the way in less than 30 minutes. Dragging your movement phase on that long is suspicious. Like I aid, a 20k point Apocalypse game featuring close to 500 Gaunts finished its movement phase quicker than that.
Point I'm making is that the two reasons that have been given for not playing this guy, cheese and taking too long, are, in my opinion, invalid, He has a legal list, and has taken a 'horde' army, which takes time to move.
Seems as though the OP should retitle the thread 'How should I beat this dick that I don't like?" as he has made quite a few personal attacks on the guy.
one thing that might be worth considering is taking dark angels land raider spam with bolter banner
libby - 65
command squad (5 vets with bolters, banner of devastation) - 165
two squads to go into the raiders (tactical squads or deathwing knights - tacts can get the benefit of the banner, knights can be good at countering charges before they happen)
3 land raider crusaders (deathwing vehicle, multi-melta) - 290
each land raider puts out 24 twin-linked bolter shots a turn while in the banner bubble (and is projected from the hull) + an a TLAC & MM .... it will shred the zombies easily and the hell drakes wont be able to touch it.
ive run it at 1500 points and it works really well, you could even go DA primary and use belial and take the land raiders as dedicated transports (although it ups the cost) and take whirlwinds (terrain LOS'd from the helldrakes) for the HS for thinning out the zombies and at worst you lose a few 65 pt whirlwinds.
Tell Mr. Aspergers, just because you can do something, doesn't mean it's right. If your group would like to spend time over coming this list, out rule, out think him. Otherwise, tell this kid to pound sand.
So after i had some games with 2 drakes at 1750 pts( that guy will bring more...) and my list was as following(i play carcharodons) :
Tyberos the red wake
Captain with TH/Shield eternal, and artificer armor( to soak up wounds gor honorguard)
7x honorguard with chapter banner, power axes and champion with powersword
Troops:
7xRed brethren(tyberoswing assault terminators with LC, you can take one unit of them if you got tyberos) in a LRC 5x scout snipers
HEAVY SUPPORT: land raider redeemer
Fast attack
2x skyhammer stormtalons(included them because i forgot you can vectorstrike flyers...)
To do: take as MANY Landraiders as you can,he can't crack them open with vectorstrike, and as many 2+save units since flame and vectorstrike are both ap3, and for decent alpha strike, you can drop out captain and talons for nice 10 combi weapon armed sternguard which WILL hurt the enemy/,or atleast secure FB, hunter and stalker are also good options as well as an ADL, and when he kills these few units like 5 scouts and 10 vets, he will probably do VERY little damage to your honorguard and termies, and drakes will get sodomized one by one by an adl(you can also include captain withnotning. but artificer armor behind quadgun note: i am really a noob.but i managed to beat 2 drakes and ahriman/abbadon and loads of termies with this list
You can fit 4 Dakka Wave Serpents, 3 Crimson Hunters, 9 Scatter Laser War Walkers, and an Autarch in a 2000 point list. This would troll a 6 drake + zombie list so hard if not table it.
Hey guys - thank you for the messages. This is all helpful stuff.
@CDRAlbrecht - It's completely normal in our local meta to play larger games. There's not really an issue with playing up to 3500 points, most other people have armies of at least that size. I played 4,000 points myself over the weekend in a game with no superheavies or fortifications.
The real challenge for us has been how NOT to refuse to play That Guy, or anyone else for that matter. We have a pretty friendly FLGS. When I started this thread, other players had been stepping away from games against CSM armies, saying Chaos is too powerful. Before you stop laughing, That Guy had won about 10 games in a row before I first posted about his army. That and his antics at the table suddenly had a lot of people saying bad things about Chaos.
It's not the right way to think about 40k. I really don't like the idea of people not getting along, at the end of the day we're all there to play a game. The real threat is that we end up with a bunch of people with cheese lists, or people spend more time refusing to play other people, or we all just stop getting together to play. There's been some of all of those things specifically because of this list, and I don't really want to contribute to it be declaring someone Exterminatus. He's a pain, his list is a pain, but they are our pains.
@koooaei - You're right, there are a lot of counters versus Drakes. That specific build would probably clean up against That Guy's army.
What I am figuring out is that the problem is not that Heldrake armies are so good, but that it's not easy to put together an army just to fight them. People don't want to spend money just to beat this list or proxy half their army or coordinate with models from several other armies. Adding simple things like Icarus Quad Cannons hasn't really made a difference either.
If I am making it sound like this list is all powerful, sorry, that's not the point. This list is just very efficient against other TAC armies - it wipes out everything it can and ignores the rest. Most lists are constructed mostly of things that Drakes can destroy and Zombies can tarpit. I stopped paying close attention about a month ago, but he was 25 - 2 with this list last I heard.
I guess the more interesting question is what kinds of TAC lists could go up against a list like this at around 2500 points. Is there anything out there where people would not need to buy a whole new army or proxy one. We have a lot of Tau and Eldar players, followed by Space Marines / Tyranids / Necrons, and then some people with IG and Ork lists.
This would be a fun challenge with my Orks but not an overly hard one.
My list would probably consist of:
Warboss PK Warboss PK 4 Manz in trukk
4 Manz in trukk
3 x 12 lootas in squaded Big Trakks
2 x 15 Burnas in Battle Wagons
3 x 19 Choppa boys in Battle Wagons
3 Dakka Jets
Cant do the points here but should be around 2500 and work quite well.
Poly Ranger wrote: Run a Sang Guard Spam! You will butcher his zombies! Probably the only list I would competitively take The Sanguinor against (goina need those +1 attacks against a zombie horde).
Land raider redeemer/crusader spam.
Assault centurions with tl flamers and hurricanes will also do a number on them. Take 3 squads!
Serp spam with NOTHING outside the serps.
6 Annihilation barges with everything else in nightscythes.
Riptides.
Heavy MC spam.
Automatically Appended Next Post: (First 3 lists just ignore the drakes)
This list literally has 0 options that can crack AV 14. Just park 2 land raiders /w very cheap troops inside on Objectives and use the other 4 slots as Thunderfire Cannons. You could even go 6 x Mortis Contemptor Dreads if you're packing Forgeworld and absolutely wreck his anti air in seconds, and then spew all over his zombies in turn 2. Or now you can ally in an imperial knight.
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