Hi all. This is my first time ever going to Adepticon and I must say, it was awesome!
I met a lot of dakkalites, including Roci, RiTides, Wyomingfox, Fxeni, Chancetragedy (my roommate for the trip), Eltrain (my Adepticon Team Tournament teammate), Coldsteel (my other Adepticon Team Tournament teammate), Yermom (Nick Nanavati, winner of the Adepticon singles), Mike Brandt and many others.
I'm also very much flattered by the many people who came up to me and said hello - people who either read my battle reports here on dakka or who saw me in one of the Frontline Gaming's videoreps. It is little things like these that motivate me to keep on writing those reports.
I also had some great games against some great people. All of my opponents were really nice and all the armies were beautiful. I also had the pleasure of playing against Tim Gorham (winner of the very recent Torrent of Fire tournament) and his tournament-winning Centurionstar Space Marines and Justin Cook (winner of the Nova Open GT 2013) and his tournament-winning O'vesa-star Tau. Then we got in a 2v2 pickup game between my roommate, Steve "Chancetragedy", and I against Team Zero Comp's Frankie "World's Greatest 40K Player" and his nasty venom-spam Dark Eldar and Geoff "InControl" and his FMC Tyranids.
This was deathstar 40K at its height. Of all the armies I played, only 1 was not a deathstar. The only non-deathstar army I went up against was mechdar with 5 wave serpents and 2 wraithknights. I then played against a Khorne 2++ deathstar (Forewarning + Grimoire), a Farsight-bomb, Tim's Centurionstar and Justin's O'vesa-star.
My only regret is that our team didn't get to participate in the Team Tournament. We were on the waitlist and we actually made it in. However, we were the odd team out. For us to play, there either had to be 1 more team in or 1 team dropping out. However, it wasn't a total loss. Instead, I got to try out the other events at Adepticon such as Combat Patrol and Zone Mortalis as well as to relax.
And I will have reports for every event that I participated in, including reports for the games that I played that weren't official.
Before I get into the meat of my report (and my list as well), I know you all want to see the "Eye Candy" of Adepticon. So without further ado, here are the many beautiful armies that is Adepticon:
BTW, if you recognize any of these armies (and their owners), feel free to give a shout-out.
Chaos
Spoiler:
Chaos and Eldar were probably the 2 most represented armies in this tournament, with Space Marines very close behind. Of course I don't have the data to support this, but from just a cursory glance, it seemed like Chaos and Eldar were everywhere.
I actually ran a very similar Chaos Space Marine army to this before (it was against Reece's Footdar).
Absolutely stunning army.
Honestly, I don't know whether this army was Heretical or Imperial in nature....actually, it looks like it might have included even a little bit of Tau! In any case, awesome conversions.
Bill Kim's (aka Centurian99) Daemons. Bill was my ATC 2013 teammate. This year, he made it to the Adepticon Top 16.
The colors! Me likey!
I really love this Lord of Change model. Superb! Anyone know what model/company it is/made this?
This was actually my Round 1 opponent's Khorne-star army. Skulltaker, 2 Heralds and Karanak with a unit of bloodcrushers. My opponent got lucky and got Forewarning along with re-roll Invuln's on 1 of his Heralds against me to make it actually a tough fight.
I love the presentation here. Reminds me of Gladiatior. Are you not entertained?!?
Helspiders! Love it!
Spidergrinder. Loving all the conversions in these armies.
The screamerstar in action!
This must be one of the Escalation armies.
Eldar
Spoiler:
This is the age of riptides and wraithknights. I've never seen so many of them before in my tournament life!
One of the many beaststar Deldar builds. This one belongs to Sean Nayden (aka OrdoSean), who finished in the Top 4! Way to go!
Watch out! Those hornets will sting you!
This was my teammate, Eltrain728's army.
Beaststar, I think.
That's a lot of jetbikes.
Awesome pose.
One of the few pure Dark Eldar armies.
Wassup bro. Long time no fight.
Spidey-knight.
Just too cool.
They're from the same army!
More jetbike madness!
Imperial Guards
Spoiler:
Guards with Marine allies.
Cool display board.
More guards with Marine allies.
This army and its display board from James Wappel was just sic. Guards + Sisters! I believe he won the award for Best Army.
Oh my goodness! This is GMM quality. Why do I only have 1 pic of this army?!?
Are you kidding me? A converted ork-guard army. I loved it!
Necrons + Orks
Spoiler:
There were a lot of Necrons and it was a decent showing for orks.
Awesome dakkajet conversion.
Loved this army. Very cool!
Necron Scarab-farm! This army kinda bugs me. Hahaha....
Wraithwing with a twist....ghost arks! Loved the color scheme here.
Lovely Forgeworld display board. I just might have to get one of those displays for my army next time.
This must be an early Necron army, before the night scythes came out.
Necrons with...Blood Angels? I find it odd that they are actually Allies of Desperation.
Finally, I knew I was bound to find a Chaos-cron combo. Love his heldrake.
Another early Necron army. You can tell by the night scythes.
This was my teammate, Coldsteel's Necron army. He brought with him the newest trend in deathstars - the Necron spyder-star!
Due to the high number of photos, I have split up the army pics. The rest of the army photos can be found on the link below:
Adepticon is currently THE Mecca of 40K gaming here in the US. It is also one of the more international events other than the ETC. There are people traveling from all over the world to attend. Adepticon is a competitive player's dream come true. There are soooo many good players here. For those coming from smaller venues, competitive-wise, you may think you were the king of your pond, but here, you're just another fish in an ocean full of sharks. That's how strong the competition is over here. Don't be surprised if you bump into a few GT winners in your games because most of them were there. Nick Nanavati, Nick Rose, Ben Mohlie, Tony Kopach, Thomas "Goatboy" Reidy, Eric Hoerger, Alex Fennel, Alan "Pajamapants" Barajmovic, Frankie "The World's Greatest 40K Player" Giampapa, Justin Cook, Bill Kim, Brandon Vallee, Brad Townsend, Andrew Gonyo, Kevin "Janthkin", Alex "Whigwam", Jim "Jy2" Yeh....the list of top players go on. I apologize for not mentioning the European/foreign winners as well as I am not so familiar with them.
But as competitive as Adepticon is, it is also a hobbyist event as well. About 20% of the field were top players. The rest of the players were more casual gamers. For the casual gamer just looking to roll dice and meet people, you may run into 1 super-tough opponent/list (who BTW is also usually pretty nice) but the majority of the guys you play against will most likely be more at your level, which will be casual. There are also many events for the more casual 40K gamer, including the 40K Friendly, Combat Patrol, Warzone, Zone Mortalis, lots of demo games, board games and many tutorial sessions (painting, sculpting, etc.). Then there were the other gaming systems like Warhammer Fantasy, Infinity, Warmachines, Flames of War, Space Hulk and many others. Although our team didn't get into the Team Tournament, in a ways, that wasn't so bad. It gave me the chance to try out some of these other events and they were quite fun. I ended up playing Combat Patrol, Zone Mortalis, Zombicide and some 40K pickup games.
Overall, Adepticon has something for everyone. It's got the Singles event for the competitive players. It's got the casual events for the casual players. It's got the hobby tutorials for those who want to learn or improve their hobby skills. It's got the BIG events for those with the BIG Forgeworld models. It's got many smaller games for those who want to try something different or new. Lastly, it's got its main attraction - the Team Tournament.
The state of the competitive meta is always fluctuating. From spam-lists like MSU to jack-of-all-trade Take-All-Comer's lists to deathstar armies - it has always been somewhat balanced. Then enter the dataslates and formations....no wait, it began even before then. Enter Tau. Yes, it was the Tau codex that shifted the trend in the meta towards deathstar builds. Tau was the perfect instigator for the deathstar armies. They've got one of the best force-multipliers in the game currently - the Toolbox Tau Commander, otherwise known as the Buffmander. That guy could do it all almost. He makes a unit twin-linked and lets them ignore cover. He gives them Tank Hunter, Monster Hunter, Stubborn and various other useful USR's. He could tank shots due to his 2+ save and Toughness 5 and could be given 4++ and FNP as well to make him even better. Finally, he lets them get out of combat with Hit-&-Run. More importantly, with Tau being Battle Brothers to the most armies, you could lend him to many armies to make them even more deadly.
The seer council and the beaststar has always existed ever since the beginning of 6th. But before the new Tau came out, they were more low-key. Even the Daemon screamerstar was just a trial deathstar in the early days before Tau. It wasn't until Tau came out that these deathstars became what they are today. Yes, it was due to how powerful the Tau and their shooting were that brought these deathstars into prominence. Few armies could stand up to the firepower of the Tau. What was needed was a new breed of deathstars, one with the speed to make it into Tau lines with minimal casualties. Enter the era of the super-fast and nigh-invincible deathstars.
To exacerbate the situation, Games Workshop then started releasing dataslates and formations, making every day like Christmas for many of these armies. Most influential of these formations/allies was the Inquisition. Now most armies - more importantly, most deathstars - have access to Divination psychic powers, powerful grenades, anti-deployment countermeasures and the ubiquitous Coteaz! It is a funny sight indeed. You could have Space Marines battling the Grey Knights fighting against Eldar trying to overrun Tau....and all of them with Coteaz in their armies!
Seer Council, beaststar, the O'vesa-star, the Farsight-bomb, Draigowing, screamerstar, centurionstar, nob bikers, wolfstar - the list of deathstars goes on and on. Get used to it, because this is the current state of the competitive meta. Deathstars are just so good nowadays that you will see more and more people running them. Before, they had weaknesses that could be addressed. But with each new release from GW, those weaknesses are getting smaller and smaller and the number of deathstars in tournament play are getting larger and larger. Some of the best TAC armies - armies like Flying Monstrous Creature-spam Daemons, Necron Wraithwing Flyer-spam and White Scars bikers - can still hold their own, but most are finding it hard to keep up with the new crop of deathstars. Even MSU (multiple-small-units) builds will have problems against the faster deathstars like the seer council, beaststar or screamerstar. Pretty soon, the tournament paradigm will be mainly deathstars and anti-deathstars unless either GW take the measures to re-balance their games or we, their customers, take it into our own hands to try to balance out the tournament scene ourselves.
I'm noticing a discrepancy between the competitive East Coast players (I'll just refer to them as EC players) and the competitive West Coast players (I'll call them WC players). As a WC player myself, here we tend to run slightly different competitive builds than the EC players do. I'm noticing that EC players tend to run more deathstar builds. We tend to run more spammy armies. They tend to run more FMC-spam daemons. We tend to run more mixed daemons. They tend to run more iontide riptides. We tend to run more burstide riptides.
Just to give you ideas of what some of the good WC players brought:
Jy2 - Wraithwing Necrons
Reece - Space Marine infantry-spam
Frankie - DE Venom-spam
Janthkin - Tyranids with no spam!!!
Blackmoor - Tyranids
Doug Johnson - IG w/allies
And these are some of the EC players:
Justin Cook/Jesse Newton - O'vesa-star
Nick Nanavati/Rob Tilly - FMC Daemons
Tony Kopach/Alex Fennell - Seer Council
Alan Pajamapants/Tony Grippando/Sean Nayden - Beaststar (don't know if Sean is actually EC)
Tim Gorham - Centurionstar
My opinion is that EC players are actually slightly ahead of the WC players. They are running more of the "newer" competitive power builds whereas we are running more of the "older" competitive power builds. This is partially due to the fact that the tournament scene in the EC is probably more competitive to those in the WC. There in the EC they have Adepticon, Nova, Battle for Salvation, Beakycon, the Michigan GT and a lot more large GT's than we do here in the WC. Also, most of these tournaments have been around much longer than the WC tourneys. Here in the WC, we have the Las Vegas Open, the Bay Area Open, Feast of Blades and the Golden Throne. Moreover, most of our tournaments, with the exception of the Feast of Blades, is still relatively new. Thus, the EC players are much more used to thriving in a more competitive meta, whereas here in the WC, we are slightly more laid back in terms of our approach to gaming. That is not to say that we WC players don't run deathstars or FMC daemons or the same builds as those in the EC, but our top players just don't run them as prevalently as our EC counterparts.
I apologize for not expounding on the Midwest players as well, but I am not as familiar with their competitive meta as I am with the EC/WC players.
For Adepticon, I was really ever considering 2 armies - my Wraithwing Necrons or Tyranids. I took Necrons to my last major tournament, the Las Vegas Open. Normally, I alternate armies between tournaments but for Adepticon, I decided to go with my Necrons again. Why?
1. My Tyranids weren't done.
2. I'm concerned about taking any army that I can't bring as a carry-on on the plane. I would most likely have to check in my bugs.
3. I wasn't really satisfied with the performance of my Necrons at the last tournament, the LVO. I did great, going 4-0 before finally losing in Game #5 to get eliminated from the Top 8 (the Championship rounds). Thus, I still had something to prove with my crons. Adepticon was a chance for their redemption.
4. I wanted to see how a great, balanced Take-All-Comer's army can deal with the current competitive meta that is deathstar 40K. Thus, I had to bring my strongest TAC army in order to see how balanced 40K compares to deathstar 40K. My hypothesis is this - TAC armies can still compete, even against the uber builds of today.
Thus, I was here at Adepticon with a goal. No, it wasn't really to win the whole thing. Rather, my goal was to make it to the Sweet 16. It was also to show that a good TAC army can still stand up to the deathstar armies. A fundamentally sound TAC army should have all the tools to handle deathstar builds. Then again, other than the seer council, I haven't really faced many of these new "super deathstars" yet, so it just may be a learning experience for me.
RiTides wrote: It was fantastic meeting you . Your posts and bat reps have been my guides to starting tyranids, which I and my teammate ran at AdeptiCon!
When I logged in, I didn't check on the "Keep me logged in on this computer" tab. I then closed the browser after I finished. I wonder why my info would still be logged on. Hmmmm....
Great to have met you there. Your converted Tyranids looked awesome. Shoulda took some pictures of it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Byte wrote: Wow, thanks for sharing the great pics! Holy cow, Chaos much? Looks like FMC ruled the lists.
There's going to to be much more pictures coming out, but alas, that is still only a fraction of the armies that were there. Wish I coulda took more pictures.
Yeah, FMC daemons were definitely the predominant Chaos build.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Chancetragedy wrote: Hey JY2 that LOC model is from ultra forge I think. It belongs to a guy named Logan B.something. GEORGOUS army I got to play against at nova.
Awesome! I've seen the model before. I just forgot the name of the company. I actually have the Ultraforge Bloodthirster. Now I just may have to get their LoC as well.
BTW, thanks for sharing your room with me. Great to have met you.
There were a lot of beautiful Eldar and Tau! Although it hurt to play against them (we faced a few that were equal parts beautiful and brutal on the table).
It was defiantly good to meet you. It is always a good time when you get to talk bugs with someone who loves them like I do. I’ll go back and look at my army lists, but I know I played at least one of those Eldar armies. ( 4 out of my 5 games where either quad eldar or taudar)
IG, Necrons and Ork pics posted. Wow, only p. 1 and I've already got 84 pics posted. People watching this on cell phones may have problems viewing all these pics.
Still to come - Marines, Tau and bugs.
RiTides wrote: There were a lot of beautiful Eldar and Tau! Although it hurt to play against them (we faced a few that were equal parts beautiful and brutal on the table).
Thanks for the pics
It was my pleasure!
poppa G wrote: Jealousy consumes me! I wish I could have gone.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Good gravy those armies are amazing!
Oh well, there's next year....or maybe the year after that. No rush. I've been in the hobby for 5 years now and this is the 1st time I've gone.
Chancetragedy wrote: Yah adept icon was an incredible time poppa. If you get a chance I highly suggest making the trip. I'll most likely be back next year.
And Jim it was awesome meeting you and yah I'm definately glad we roomed together! Hopefully I can make it out to LVO next year and we can hangout.
Ah...you'd love it at Vegas. Vegas + gaming = WIN!!! You can even bring the family as there is something there for everyone.
Vegas is going to be a mainstay for me.
Mak_the_Knife wrote: How did I not see any this?! I thought I walked around pretty extensively, but I must have missed the "Cool Warhammer Models" room...
I'll have to do better next year.
Thank you for sharing these!
There are just so many cool armies that these are only a fraction of the armies that I saw. I'm sure even I missed out on a lot of armies there.
jathomas2013 wrote: Some of those wraithknights are JAW DROPPING. I'm now very sad I didn't do anything like that with my three!
Hope they give you some ideas. You can still do some external conversion work if you're into converting.
CitizenVll wrote: Hell yea! Great to see the Adepticon stuff get posted so fast!
I was one of those Dakkanites that ran up to your table when I saw you in the crowd, could'nt help myself to top and shake your hand
Cant wait to read those battlereports, keep them coming!
Thanks! I'm really flattered by all those who came up and said hi to me. I feel like I have friends everywhere now.
Roci wrote: It was defiantly good to meet you. It is always a good time when you get to talk bugs with someone who loves them like I do. I’ll go back and look at my army lists, but I know I played at least one of those Eldar armies. ( 4 out of my 5 games where either quad eldar or taudar)
Nice to have met you Roci. So did you run your bugs for the Singles? I'm planning on bringing bugs to my next major tournament (either the Golden Throne or the Bay Area Open).
I'm in SoCal so the GT SoCal is a given that I will attend!. I am thinking I needa start going to other tournies that are farther away like BAO and LVO...
Roci wrote: It was defiantly good to meet you. It is always a good time when you get to talk bugs with someone who loves them like I do. I’ll go back and look at my army lists, but I know I played at least one of those Eldar armies. ( 4 out of my 5 games where either quad eldar or taudar)
Nice to have met you Roci. So did you run your bugs for the Singles? I'm planning on bringing bugs to my next major tournament (either the Golden Throne or the Bay Area Open).
Unfortunately, like you, my nids are not quite ready. I have a gaggle of FMC that need to be wrapped up. I have the army back up to about 90% complete. I will be bringing them to Nova though. List will very based on if they open the door for formations or not. They will be attending some RTTS and local shop tourneys to put them to the test prior to Nova though.
Due to the high number of photos on this page already, I will post the rest of the army photos on p. 2 of this thread instead when it gets there. Otherwise, certain slower connections (i.e. dialup or cell phones) will take forever to open them. So if you want to see them faster, just bump up the thread with your posts until it gets to p. 2.
Instead, I will post my thoughts on Adepticon and the current competitive meta.
Adepticon
Adepticon is currently THE Mecca of 40K gaming here in the US. It is also one of the more international events other than the ETC. There are people traveling from all over the world to attend. Adepticon is a competitive player's dream come true. There are soooo many good players here. For those coming from smaller venues, competitive-wise, you may think you were the king of your pond, but here, you're just another fish in an ocean full of sharks. That's how strong the competition is over here. Don't be surprised if you bump into a few GT winners in your games because most of them were there. Nick Nanavati, Nick Rose, Ben Mohlie, Tony Kopach, Thomas "Goatboy" Reidy, Eric Hoerger, Alex Fennel, Alan "Pajamapants" Barajmovic, Frankie "The World's Greatest 40K Player" Giampapa, Justin Cook, Bill Kim, Brandon Vallee, Brad Townsend, Andrew Gonyo, Kevin "Janthkin", Alex "Whigwam", Jim "Jy2" Yeh....the list of top players go on. I apologize for not mentioning the European/foreign winners as well as I am not so familiar with them.
But as competitive as Adepticon is, it is also a hobbyist event as well. About 20% of the field were top players. The rest of the players were more casual gamers. For the casual gamer just looking to roll dice and meet people, you may run into 1 super-tough opponent/list (who BTW is also usually pretty nice) but the majority of the guys you play against will most likely be more at your level, which will be casual. There are also many events for the more casual 40K gamer, including the 40K Friendly, Combat Patrol, Warzone, Zone Mortalis, lots of demo games, board games and many tutorial sessions (painting, sculpting, etc.). Then there were the other gaming systems like Warhammer Fantasy, Infinity, Warmachines, Flames of War, Space Hulk and many others. Although our team didn't get into the Team Tournament, in a ways, that wasn't so bad. It gave me the chance to try out some of these other events and they were quite fun. I ended up playing Combat Patrol, Zone Mortalis, Zombicide and some 40K pickup games.
Overall, Adepticon has something for everyone. It's got the Singles event for the competitive players. It's got the casual events for the casual players. It's got the hobby tutorials for those who want to learn or improve their hobby skills. It's got the BIG events for those with the BIG Forgeworld models. It's got many smaller games for those who want to try something different or new. Lastly, it's got its main attraction - the Team Tournament.
Let's get this bumped to page 2. Looking forward to seeing more of your thoughts on the competitive meta. From my understand adepticon is usually very follow the leader and I definately felt you saw that. Hell I'm just as guilty as anyone haha. Karma really kicked my butt event wise but the weekend was incredibly fun and it great to see old friends and meet new ones.
After all the hard work put into giving you a page two, you abandon your work. Can't wait to get home and see what you posted on the front page though. I cannot into Photobucket at work.
those are my Necrons/CSM with the Helldrake controlled by MSS ^.^ Glad you liked em. Also got to chat with you a bit before the Team tourney - Had the purple dark eldar I hope you got photos of bc I failed to take any of my own >.<
Im looking forward for some batreps, especially how this centurionstar is working and how you preasumably beat it (i guess cause i belive in your skills bro, dont know the outcome).
Thanks for pictures, some of those armies are gorgeous!
Someone already gave you half the answer, but that alternate LoC you spotted is the Ultraforge Vrock. Really nice model. Unfortunately it's also really tall and consequently impossible to hide behind terrain. Dealbreaker for me considering how often my LoC rolls poor Greater Rewards and ends up showing up to battle in nothing but his 5++ underpants.
It was nice getting a brief chance to catch up. Hopefully we'll spot each other at some other GT's this year. You still owe me a rematch! Any plans to make the long trip out to NOVA?
DaBenzsta08 wrote: those are my Necrons/CSM with the Helldrake controlled by MSS ^.^ Glad you liked em. Also got to chat with you a bit before the Team tourney - Had the purple dark eldar I hope you got photos of bc I failed to take any of my own >.<
Your army is sic. I like your conversions and the blending on your heldrake.
whigwam wrote: Someone already gave you half the answer, but that alternate LoC you spotted is the Ultraforge Vrock. Really nice model. Unfortunately it's also really tall and consequently impossible to hide behind terrain. Dealbreaker for me considering how often my LoC rolls poor Greater Rewards and ends up showing up to battle in nothing but his 5++ underpants.
It was nice getting a brief chance to catch up. Hopefully we'll spot each other at some other GT's this year. You still owe me a rematch! Any plans to make the long trip out to NOVA?
If I get it, it'll be more for the aesthetics than for the in-game advantages/disadvantages. But in any case, it looks like it could hide behind a bastion.
No NOVA this year, but it's something I will be considering for next year. You should also consider coming to the LVO next year. I think that will be the can't-miss West Coast tournament for those interested. We can play a pick-up game if we ever bump into each other again.
Man after seeing all these beautiful looking armies, I now know what I have to do before going to my next tournament. Make a sweet ass display board. Some of those boards just blow my mind at how much detail and time most of been spent just to carry your army around from one table to the next. Can’t wait to start reading about your battles.
Panzer1944 wrote: Man after seeing all these beautiful looking armies, I now know what I have to do before going to my next tournament. Make a sweet ass display board. Some of those boards just blow my mind at how much detail and time most of been spent just to carry your army around from one table to the next. Can’t wait to start reading about your battles.
You can find my full thoughts on Adepticon on p. 1.
The State of the Meta
The state of the competitive meta is always fluctuating. From spam-lists like MSU to jack-of-all-trade Take-All-Comer's lists to deathstar armies - it has always been somewhat balanced. Then enter the dataslates and formations....no wait, it began even before then. Enter Tau. Yes, it was the Tau codex that shifted the trend in the meta towards deathstar builds. Tau was the perfect instigator for the deathstar armies. They've got one of the best force-multipliers in the game currently - the Toolbox Tau Commander, otherwise known as the Buffmander. That guy could do it all almost. He makes a unit twin-linked and lets them ignore cover. He gives them Tank Hunter, Monster Hunter, Stubborn and various other useful USR's. He could tank shots due to his 2+ save and Toughness 5 and could be given 4++ and FNP as well to make him even better. Finally, he lets them get out of combat with Hit-&-Run. More importantly, with Tau being Battle Brothers to the most armies, you could lend him to many armies to make them even more deadly.
The seer council and the beaststar has always existed ever since the beginning of 6th. But before the new Tau came out, they were more low-key. Even the Daemon screamerstar was just a trial deathstar in the early days before Tau. It wasn't until Tau came out that these deathstars became what they are today. Yes, it was due to how powerful the Tau and their shooting were that brought these deathstars into prominence. Few armies could stand up to the firepower of the Tau. What was needed was a new breed of deathstars, one with the speed to make it into Tau lines with minimal casualties. Enter the era of the super-fast and nigh-invincible deathstars.
To exacerbate the situation, Games Workshop then started releasing dataslates and formations, making every day like Christmas for many of these armies. Most influential of these formations/allies was the Inquisition. Now most armies - more importantly, most deathstars - have access to Divination psychic powers, powerful grenades, anti-deployment countermeasures and the ubiquitous Coteaz! It is a funny sight indeed. You could have Space Marines battling the Grey Knights fighting against Eldar trying to overrun Tau....and all of them with Coteaz in their armies!
Seer Council, beaststar, the O'vesa-star, the Farsight-bomb, Draigowing, screamerstar, centurionstar, nob bikers, wolfstar - the list of deathstars goes on and on. Get used to it, because this is the current state of the competitive meta. Deathstars are just so good nowadays that you will see more and more people running them. Before, they had weaknesses that could be addressed. But with each new release from GW, those weaknesses are getting smaller and smaller and the number of deathstars in tournament play are getting larger and larger. Some of the best TAC armies - armies like Flying Monstrous Creature-spam Daemons, Necron Wraithwing Flyer-spam and White Scars bikers - can still hold their own, but most are finding it hard to keep up with the new crop of deathstars. Even MSU (multiple-small-units) builds will have problems against the faster deathstars like the seer council, beaststar or screamerstar. Pretty soon, the tournament paradigm will be mainly deathstars and anti-deathstars unless either GW take the measures to re-balance their game, or we, their customers, take it into our own hands to try to balance out the tournament scene ourselves.
Honestly nothing in the last year has been that in-ordinary for GW except for the pace of releases.
Competitive 40k has always been kind of a bad joke. I don't mean in a negative way, like this game sucks for tournament play kinda way. But rather, the game has always been unbalanced and wonky, which is the appeal over chess honestly, but this makes the idea of FAIR competition almost impossible, and therefore can't( or shouldn't) be taken too seriously.
to go back to the meta duiscusion, nothing in the last year is unusal for GW. I mean, had the release been like it has in the past like 5th, Tau would have hit the scene and for the last year, until now, we would all be complaining of too much tau like we did with grey knights and then necrons in 5th. Instead we basically have experienced 5 years of meta shift in one year.
It makes people think change is needed to balance the game but it is funny to people like me who have played since 94 and have seen this go unchecked for 20 years. Only now that the meta is moving obviously fast in on negative direction to another are people complaining so much.
Why wasn't 40k "balanced" during the dreaded psybolt spam? Probably because is was one dominant build and it was easier for everyone in "competitive" play to bandwagon and keep up.
For me it eventually became wildly more easily balanced by looking at myslef. What do I want from this hobby, and how can I make my opponents experience what mine was back in 2nd. The simple answer is player responsibility. I hate to say it, but all the people whining for balance and change are the same people showing up with deathstars in their case. I say be the bigger player (not literally lol) and ask, so I really need to bring an inquisitor with my eldar AND tau. D I really need to take that buffmander? I know its "cheesy" and my opponent will hate facing it. Do I want to face this list?
Comp sadly just hurts the bottom line that much more. It always has, and always will. I think 40k should just be accepted for what it always has been. Wildly imbalanced and wonky. I mean, say you make a packet to address the flaws, oh look GW just took down their FAQ's.... whoops. In a month 7th might hit, woops again. Its too unstable to even try at this point.
Look at Nick Nanavatis play style in the singles. Basically grab FB and then fly on and off all game every game until last turn. Wow, that must have been some awesome tournament. At what point do you look at yourself and say, oh hey I am avoiding playing the game due to a loophole, are loopholes a great way to win? Definitely! Doesn't that sort of sour your win though? I don't know, maybe. Maybe not for him, but what about his opponents? Do you think even one of them may have thought, great I flew all the way her to watch a guy book keeping his powers then not engage anything due to premeasuring. If the answer is even one player would have a bad time then i wouldn't play that way myself, this is why so many players are leaving 40k.
Just my take on the meta.
TLDR- The meta: just let it be, nothing has changed except the pace of change.
One glaring question: Where was the Imperial Knight at Adepticon? It's the great leveller of Deathstar armies. Also, why do we keep seeing top players at top tables? Someone is doing something right.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: One glaring question: Where was the Imperial Knight at Adepticon? It's the great leveller of Deathstar armies. Also, why do we keep seeing top players at top tables? Someone is doing something right.
That's not the discussion though. We are discussing the meta or lists not the players. We know they are good at winning (the players), but that just means they will use whatever they can to get there. I personally think it's fine, it just puzzles me why some people want to cherry pick the rules to try and comp the meta, all that does is shift the top build. Ultimately its player responsibility whether they should bring an unfluffy, hammer list that is deigned to win not make overall sense. It is fine at the top seats because they are all the nes that get their like you said. I think turnout is changing though and now or at least in the future only those types will be left. I say that's fine, sharks in the shark tank. They shouldn't complain when their are less species in theat tank in the end though if you will. Sorry, terrible sea life analogy lol.
Again, i think open 40k is fine now. 6th is all about MC's and deathstars. 5th was vehicle msu. Just wait for 7th or maybe 8th and it will be horde maybe. Maybe not. Nothing is any more broken then it ever was really, just different.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: One glaring question: Where was the Imperial Knight at Adepticon? It's the great leveller of Deathstar armies. Also, why do we keep seeing top players at top tables? Someone is doing something right.
That's not the discussion though. We are discussing the meta or lists not the players. We know they are good at winning (the players), but that just means they will use whatever they can to get there. I personally think it's fine, it just puzzles me why some people want to cherry pick the rules to try and comp the meta, all that does is shift the top build. Ultimately its player responsibility whether they should bring an unfluffy, hammer list that is deigned to win not make overall sense. It is fine at the top seats because they are all the nes that get their like you said. I think turnout is changing though and now or at least in the future only those types will be left. I say that's fine, sharks in the shark tank. They shouldn't complain when their are less species in theat tank in the end though if you will. Sorry, terrible sea life analogy lol.
Again, i think open 40k is fine now. 6th is all about MC's and deathstars. 5th was vehicle msu. Just wait for 7th or maybe 8th and it will be horde maybe. Maybe not. Nothing is any more broken then it ever was really, just different.
Red this honestly is the truest thing I've ever heard. Well done.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: One glaring question: Where was the Imperial Knight at Adepticon? It's the great leveller of Deathstar armies. Also, why do we keep seeing top players at top tables? Someone is doing something right.
That's not the discussion though. We are discussing the meta or lists not the players. We know they are good at winning (the players), but that just means they will use whatever they can to get there. I personally think it's fine, it just puzzles me why some people want to cherry pick the rules to try and comp the meta, all that does is shift the top build. Ultimately its player responsibility whether they should bring an unfluffy, hammer list that is deigned to win not make overall sense. It is fine at the top seats because they are all the nes that get their like you said. I think turnout is changing though and now or at least in the future only those types will be left. I say that's fine, sharks in the shark tank. They shouldn't complain when their are less species in theat tank in the end though if you will. Sorry, terrible sea life analogy lol.
Again, i think open 40k is fine now. 6th is all about MC's and deathstars. 5th was vehicle msu. Just wait for 7th or maybe 8th and it will be horde maybe. Maybe not. Nothing is any more broken then it ever was really, just different.
Red this honestly is the truest thing I've ever heard. Well done.
So what you guys are saying is that TOs should depend on 30-300 people all self regulating for the continued survival of their tournament? I imagine they should also continue to run said tournaments risking tens of thousands of dollars? Rather than destroy even the possibility of large community events I would much rather TOs make whatever restriction are needed. It would be nice if they could do it is a community of big event TOs for consistency.
Honestly poor balance and ambiguous rules is the bane of everyone. The least affected are highly competitive players and narrative players. The people that truly suffer from poor balance are the middle ground players who show up to tournaments and get stomped and have to spend an hour just agreeing on ground rules before they can play a pick up game.
So what you guys are saying is that TOs should depend on 30-300 people all self regulating for the continued survival of their tournament?
Nah, forget that.
Theres a sizeable portion of players who rock up to tournaments just 'to play some games' or, more elegantly, 'to push toy tanks around and make laser noises'. These are the people who will be bringing the fluffy or casual armies to the meatgrinder, and the species who will subsequently 'become extinct' to use the sealife metaphor earlier.
I reckon the answer is to remove the charade of a 'tournament' entirely for these players. Stop running tournaments and start running 'events' where people just play one another. And sure, the riptides and the hellturkeys can bash heads together on a few of the tables to.
Adepticons Casual and Competitive events is somewhat similar to that. Would love to hear how the casual events went.
(also back on topic these armies are goddamn beautiful)
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: One glaring question: Where was the Imperial Knight at Adepticon? It's the great leveller of Deathstar armies. Also, why do we keep seeing top players at top tables? Someone is doing something right.
Its not that hard when a large portion of the event is filled with "fun" players. The core competitive players will naturally rise to the top. Then once those play, skill levels will begin to show.
First of all, Imperial Knights did not make the cut-off time for Adepticon. I believe Adepticon doesn't allow for new codices if they came out less than a month before the event. That was the case with the Imperial Knights.
Ok, now my personal thoughts about the meta. Honestly, I am not concerned at all about competitive players. Competitive players will adjust with the meta. They are here to stay, no matter how wonky the rules become, even if they don't necessarily like all the changes.
What I am more concerned about is the overall health of the hobby. You make the changes too fast and too extreme and you are going to start losing players, both to tournament play and in the worst case, to the entire hobby as well. We are bleeding players, especially the veteran players, left and right. With loose, unbalanced rules, armies that no longer resemble the fluff (yes, many people actually care about the fluff) and the price gouging of GW models, it's no wonder GW is having so much problems. Create a tight ruleset and people may overlook the overpriced models or have cheap but awesome models and people may tolerate the looser rules. But to have both shoddy rules (and rules balance) and overpriced models, that's never a good thing....but that is a topic of conversation for another day.
The same goes for Tournament Organizers. If they allow unrestricted, do-everything-the-rules-allows-you-to-do approach to tournament play, they are going to lose attendees. For smaller tournaments, it's not a big deal, but for the larger ones, they stand to lose a lot of money if they aren't able to maintain good attendance. What these TO's want to do is to encourage a lot of the newer tournament goers (and also a lot of the veteran gamers) to come. In order to do that, they need to make an environment that is more fun and "fair" so that Casual Joe isn't blown out in almost every single game due to the disparities in the power levels in terms of army builds and then decide never to go back to tournaments anymore.
In any case, I just wanted to touch upon my views briefly. But since these opinions are really beyond the scope of this thread, I will be moving on to some actual battle reports coming up very soon.
East Coast vs West Coast
I'm noticing a discrepancy between the competitive East Coast players (I'll just refer to them as EC players) and the competitive West Coast players (I'll call them WC players). As a WC player myself, here we tend to run slightly different competitive builds than the EC players do. I'm noticing that EC players tend to run more deathstar builds. We tend to run more spammy armies. They tend to run more FMC-spam daemons. We tend to run more mixed daemons. They tend to run more iontide riptides. We tend to run more burstide riptides.
Just to give you ideas of what some of the good WC players brought:
Jy2 - Wraithwing Necrons
Reece - Space Marine infantry-spam
Frankie - DE Venom-spam
Janthkin - Tyranids with no spam!!!
Blackmoor - Tyranids
Doug Johnson - IG w/allies
And these are some of the EC players:
Justin Cook/Jesse Newton - O'vesa-star
Nick Nanavati/Rob Tilly - FMC Daemons
Tony Kopach/Alex Fennell - Seer Council
Alan Pajamapants/Tony Grippando/Sean Nayden - Beaststar (don't know if Sean is actually EC)
Tim Gorham - Centurionstar
My opinion is that EC players are actually slightly ahead of the WC players. They are running more of the "newer" competitive power builds whereas we are running more of the "older" competitive power builds. This is partially due to the fact that the tournament scene in the EC is probably more competitive to those in the WC. There in the EC they have Adepticon, Nova, Battle for Salvation, Beakycon, the Michigan GT and a lot more large GT's than we do here in the WC. Also, most of these tournaments have been around much longer than the WC tourneys. Here in the WC, we have the Las Vegas Open, the Bay Area Open, Feast of Blades and the Golden Throne. Moreover, most of our tournaments, with the exception of the Feast of Blades, is still relatively new. Thus, the EC players are much more used to thriving in a more competitive meta, whereas here in the WC, we are slightly more laid back in terms of our approach to gaming. That is not to say that we WC players don't run deathstars or FMC daemons or the same builds as those in the EC, but our top players just don't run them as prevalently as our EC counterparts.
I apologize for not expounding on the Midwest players as well, but I am not as familiar with their competitive meta as I am with the EC/WC players.
My opinion is that EC players are actually slightly ahead of the WC players.
I was going to make a timezone joke of how EC players are specifically 3 hours ahead of WC players, but it just didn't sound right, so I will just toss the general idea out here and let everyone make up something funny in their own minds.
From what you saw at adepticon; how will this affect your Tyranid builds in the future? Also, if dataslates aren't allowed, what is the fallback plan for not being able to use skyblight?
As is, Tyranids don't have what it takes to win a major GT. I would take them to a major GT. I may even do well with them, but it'll be a longshot to win it all.
Enter dataslates. Currently, Skyblight is the most powerful of the Tyranid dataslates. It is so good that it actually gives Tyranids a chance to compete against the top-tier tournament armies. Without dataslates, expect an uphill battle against the top tournament armies with bugs. You can still win, but it will be more like a David vs Goliath type of battle, with the odds stacked against the bugs.
omerakk wrote: I was going to make a timezone joke of how EC players are specifically 3 hours ahead of WC players, but it just didn't sound right, so I will just toss the general idea out here and let everyone make up something funny in their own minds.
This is me telling every joke ever Have an exalt -TG
You named three of the Midwest players in your East coast list. Gorham, Grippando and Bajramovic are all from Chicago. Do you count Chicago as East Coast? Because we here in Chicago count it as Midwest.
I guess from the perspective of a West Coast player, Chicago is much closer to the East Coast than it is to the West Coast.
To me, it seems like the Midwest closer to the East Coast (i.e. Chicago) tend to run more similar builds as the East Coast players mainly because they compete largely in the same tournaments. Then the Midwest boys closer to the West Coast - the BoLS guys from Texas, guys like Nick Rose, Paul Murphy and Thomas "Goatboy" - tend to run strong builds more like those in the West Coast.
I think its best not to divide the hobby and shove people into boxes when it comes to such an individualistic hobby. Honestly this country is WAY to massive and the hobby way to niche to draw any meaningful data from logistics.
I think you'd be better off defining "top" player.
To me, a top player is that guy who spent the last 3 years modeling his army to finally meet the theme and standards he wanted to show off to an events audience. That paired with a great attitude to try and make the day enjoyable for all his opponents.
Unfortunately top player for most is devolved into WAAC list building, with in a lot of cases, awful looking armies. If not hobby wise, then theme wise.
Heres an example, in your list of photos is James Wapel and his AMAZING guard army which took best army. Second year running actually. Heres his blog:
Yet all anyone talks about on any forum is Nick Nanavatis second win in the singles back to back. To me, Wapels title is MUCH more venerable, and his presence brings more to any event then some Silly cricus list that is tailored to actually avoid engaging with your opponents until last turn where you land on "objectives".
I think there is a middle ground here for sure. It is hilariously sad however when no one recognizes some one like Wapel. I intentionally held back for a while just to see if anyone else would recognize him, apparently not. It just shows the community isn't recognizing these aspects anymore.
In conclusion I'll reiterate that player responsibility should have more weight. The community should pat that "top 16" on the back less and maybe they will come around a bit. As long as people only recognize a seat number nothing will get changed though. So be it, let the sharks get sick of eating shark for a change lol.
Red Corsair wrote: It is hilariously sad however when no one recognizes some one like Wapel. I intentionally held back for a while just to see if anyone else would recognize him, apparently not. It just shows the community isn't recognizing these aspects anymore.
The what now?
I saw an awful lot of people stopping and checking out his army, and chatting to him about it. He was most definitely 'recognised'.
The fact that the guy who won the event got more attention than the guy with the prettiest army is hardly a sign that there is something wrong with the community.
Red Corsair wrote: I think its best not to divide the hobby and shove people into boxes when it comes to such an individualistic hobby. Honestly this country is WAY to massive and the hobby way to niche to draw any meaningful data from logistics.
Red Corsair wrote: Unfortunately top player for most is devolved into WAAC list building, with in a lot of cases, awful looking armies. If not hobby wise, then theme wise.
Yet all anyone talks about on any forum is Nick Nanavatis second win in the singles back to back. To me, Wapels title is MUCH more venerable, and his presence brings more to any event then some Silly cricus list that is tailored to actually avoid engaging with your opponents until last turn where you land on "objectives".
You are contradicting yourself. Both should be congratulated on their accomplishments and saying things like one is better than the other directly contradicts your previous statement. Interestingly enough Jy2 has done exactly what you said people should do and started this off with pictures of armies he enjoyed seeing and is going on to batreps which will be a mixture of competitive and funsies events. Good job BTW Jy2 always a please
To me, a top player is that guy who spent the last 3 years modeling his army to finally meet the theme and standards he wanted to show off to an events audience. That paired with a great attitude to try and make the day enjoyable for all his opponents.
This is actually painting and not "playing" 40K as the painting aspect is normally done by himself. Now if he were to paint part of a model and pass it to another and so on then we could play 40K painting with each other. Alas I would definitely ruin his paint jobs as he is several skill levels above me.
Red Corsair wrote: I think there is a middle ground here for sure. It is hilariously sad however when no one recognizes some one like Wapel. I intentionally held back for a while just to see if anyone else would recognize him, apparently not. It just shows the community isn't recognizing these aspects anymore.
Not true Nick doesn't even have his own blog as far as I am aware of, therefore Wapel does have his own fandom and recognition. If there is indeed a large awareness difference what you are seeing is the ratio of gamers vs painters in the hobby as are on the internet and that site. Considering the number of bare grey armies out there I would say the gamer tends to be a bit more prevalent in the hobby but I could be wrong.
Red Corsair wrote: In conclusion I'll reiterate that player responsibility should have more weight. The community should pat that "top 16" on the back less and maybe they will come around a bit. As long as people only recognize a seat number nothing will get changed though. So be it, let the sharks get sick of eating shark for a change lol.
Personal responsibility in a group is a fascinating topic. As it turns out the more people who have to be responsible the less responsible each of them are as they will all think that their actions have less weight. Asking a group of more than 10 people to all be responsible and restrain themselves is a great thing to talk about but is so far removed from reality that it is similar to talking about how every person on this site can bench 300 pounds, actually getting everyone to bench 300 pds might be easier.
Also sharks never get sick of eating sharks. There are even ecosystems where some of the sharks have evolved to become the krill eaters, etc. that the other sharks prey on.
Also to be fair you knock on Nick and his FMC circus a lot in your post. FMC is not an easy list to play and if you mess up you loose huge chunks of it and can easily loose in a single turn. If the player wasn't seriously skilled he would have lost to any of those lists in the top 16 and most any list you put together with some forethought can engage a FMC circus but a good player can use the FMC circus strengths to win. Nick deserves some serious props for his win and so does Wapel for his excellent army, Wapel gets his every time someone looks at that fantastic art piece of an army but Nick only gets his when he wins a GT.
Red Corsair wrote: It is hilariously sad however when no one recognizes some one like Wapel. I intentionally held back for a while just to see if anyone else would recognize him, apparently not. It just shows the community isn't recognizing these aspects anymore.
The what now?
I saw an awful lot of people stopping and checking out his army, and chatting to him about it. He was most definitely 'recognised'.
The fact that the guy who won the event got more attention than the guy with the prettiest army is hardly a sign that there is something wrong with the community.
I mean online after the fact. I here WAY more chatter on dakka about top 16. Sorry to be unclear.
@redcorsair-just wondering: How awful looking is my army (Justin Cooks O'vesa Star)? I think that would fall into the category of those WAAC lists. How about Andrew Gonyo's Ovesa star army with 8 piranha (also in JY2s pictures?) You can be honest, not gonna hurt my feelings...I just think its very sweeping to say that most armies you likely consider waac also look 'awful'
@ansacs
Sorry but I am not trying to pick on Nick. Being in the spot light means you are open for discussion. He is a top notch player and I think he'll do well no matter what, as I said of all the top players, but his list does not engage the other player much at all. As it stands though I am actually really glad he won as I think flying circus was less of an evil looking at the field.
In regard to sharks never getting tired of eating sharks, maybe your right, then again maybe your not. When attendance falls below a certain number for an event in a grand tournament, suddenly the win i less meaningful to those types. If the top 16 becomes the top 16 in an even of 50, suddenly it's not as impressive or shocking when one of them wins it.
I also agree both should be congratulated, but the sad fact is the MASSIVE disparity between the two currently on the web at least. That was more was trying to get across I guess. When you say this is painting and not playing, I see you missed my point. The hobby isn't just the rules, maybe this is me missing the old GT's though.
I guess for me it is just mind boggling to hear so many competitive players outcry for TO's to make changes when most of them make no effort not to bring the silly lists they currently hate.
Asking large groups to act responsibly isn't worth it now? Just because the event gets larger and the odds of everyone acting responsibly goes down doesn't mean we should declare open season and expect them all to act out.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
thanatos67 wrote: @redcorsair-just wondering: How awful looking is my army (Justin Cooks O'vesa Star)? I think that would fall into the category of those WAAC lists. How about Andrew Gonyo's Ovesa star army with 8 piranha (also in JY2s pictures?) You can be honest, not gonna hurt my feelings...I just think its very sweeping to say that most armies you likely consider waac also look 'awful'
Jim unveil your list, the masses want to know!
Sorry, I actually regret typing that as I try not to call out specific people. I have seen some accomplished players lists/armies and they were not impressive to me, I shouldn't say most, I apologize. At the risk of sounding less credible I would rather not call anyone out. I also didn't mean it as a rule, your army is clean looking and cohesive, the pics aren't the best (read close) so I am not going to overly judge it. It looks like it could be better if I saw it in person though, but like I said as it stands yours looks clean, and yes your list (not you) is very WAAC. Your friends army is really, really nice however. To me I would be much happier being blown off the table by nice looking armies. Small victories.
I hope your not taking my remarks personally, everyones ability varies, its just sad when you see armies rushed to the table. I have seen top players with a polished army and then 3 weeks later bring the next best thing with busted looking models as they were in a rush to get the army together more concerned with winning.
@Red Corsair
Fair enough about Nick. I honestly find the FMC circus to be a fun list to play and play against. I think this is the biggest problem with a call for responsibility. What is a WAAC list? Is a white scars bike army a WAAC list? Can I not take a white scars list as presented in the fluff because it is too powerful? Jet seer council is a ridiculously powerful list but it is a fluffy list that can easily come about from fluff and modeling decisions.
Heck I see posts on this site every weak on how riptides, heldrakes, centurions, and wraithknights are overcosted and garbage units. You can literally find threads started every weak.
I did not miss the point. Painting is part of the hobby and can supplement the gaming experience as well. In fact I paint more than I have time to game. However it is not playing a game of 40K, you do not call a painter a player and a player is often not a painter or painting services would not exist.
GT winner's fame is short lived but explosive. Painter's fame is slowly accrued and is always a low key thing but it lasts for as long as their works or records of their works last. There is also something to be said about this discussion being held in the batrep section...where it is all about games played. From what I see the painting section has more about gorgeous models that win showings.
The thing is you are asking people to restrain themselves to a completely undefined level. Not only this but for those people that actually have some idea of what they are doing but are also unscrupulous enough (gasp!) to field a jet seer council, etc. they will win and get the best positions. So should we automatically scorn those who win games. You have also reverted back to TOs hosting events and not doing anything to ensure those event succeed. Why should they risk tens of thousands of usd so you can have your sharks make others extinct events where you appear to think the event will fail? If you want to prove a point then shouldn't you put up the money to do so?
I will stop replying to this discussion on this thread, please feel free to have the last word. If you want we could move it to another thread but I think some of this thread should definitely be Jy2's fantastic and entertaining reports! TM
For Adepticon, I was really ever considering 2 armies - my Wraithwing Necrons or Tyranids. I took Necrons to my last major tournament, the Las Vegas Open. Normally, I alternate armies between tournaments but for Adepticon, I decided to go with my Necrons again. Why?
1. My Tyranids weren't done.
2. I'm concerned about taking any army that I can't bring as a carry-on on the plane. I would most likely have to check in my bugs.
3. I wasn't really satisfied with the performance of my Necrons at the last tournament, the LVO. I did great, going 4-0 before finally losing in Game #5 to get eliminated from the Top 8 (the Championship rounds). Thus, I still had something to prove with my crons. Adepticon was a chance for their redemption.
4. I wanted to see how a great, balanced Take-All-Comer's army can deal with the current competitive meta that is deathstar 40K. Thus, I had to bring my strongest TAC army in order to see how balanced 40K compares to deathstar 40K. My hypothesis is this - TAC armies can still compete, even against the uber builds of today.
Thus, I was here at Adepticon with a goal. No, it wasn't really to win the whole thing. Rather, my goal was to make it to the Sweet 16. It was also to show that a good TAC army can still stand up to the deathstar armies. A fundamentally sound TAC army should have all the tools to handle deathstar builds. Then again, other than the seer council, I haven't really faced many of these new "super deathstars" yet, so it just may be a learning experience for me.
Skulltaker - Juggernaut
Karanak
Khorne Herald - Juggernaut, 1x Greater Gift, 1x Lesser Gift - Axe of Khorne, Re-roll Inv's Khorne Herald - Juggernaut, 1x Greater Gift, 1x Lesser Gift - Axe of Khorne, +1 Wound, It Will Not Die
Adepticon uses only Primary and Secondary objectives. The Primary Objectives always consists of 2 missions. It's actually quite simple. If you get more Primary Objectives than your opponent, you earn a Crushing Victory. Otherwise, if the Primary is tied, then you go on to the Secondaries. The Secondaries consist of First Blood, Linebreaker and Slay the Warlord. If you tie on the Primary and win via Secondaries, then it is a Minor Victory.
My opponent, Gary, is a Chicago native. For those not very familiar, Chicago has an extremely competitive group of 40K players. Here is the home of Adepticon and the former GW Battle Bunker, where the Ard Boyz Championships used to be hosted. There are many great players here, including Alan "Pajamapants" Barajmovich, Tim Gorham, Tony Grippando as well as many others. Gary actually plays against them on a constant basis. So he geared his deathstar to be more of an "anti-deathstar" (or rather, more of an "anti-centurionstar"). Well, after taking a look at my army, he knew he would be in trouble. Mindshackle Scarabs and 3++ wraiths isn't exactly the type of army he wanted to face. Moreover, he had no answers to my 4 flyers.
On the other hand, he hit the mother-lode in terms of powers/gifts. With only a 1 in 6 chance, Fateweaver got Forewarning. Now with the Grimoire, that means his Khorne deathstar will be getting 2++, with one of the Heralds having re-rollable 2++. And his DP....oh my goodness! You can't get any better than Iron Arm and Warp Speed for him, but on top of that, he gets Enfeeble as well! That means his Heralds on the charge will potentially be insta-gibbing my wraiths if he gets Enfeeble off on them.
I think I should be able to take this matchup, but with powers/gifts that Gary rolled, it isn't going to be as easy as I had thought. Good, I don't want any easy games.
Daemons advance. Every power goes off except Forewarning (unless I mention otherwise, assume psychic powers are cast successfully every turn). Good. That means his Khorne-star is vulnerable with only a 3++ save.
Necrons 1
Spoiler:
Without Forewarning, the wraiths smell blood and begin to swarm the Khorne-star.
However, my actual goal is to down Fatey and to finish him off in Assault. I train all my guns at him.
The other wraiths go after the Khorne-dogs. They will be my First Blood.
Barges bring Fatey down to just 1W remaining with shooting but fail to ground him.
Then it's onto Assault we go. I fail to get the First Blood as I kill 3 dogs and they kill 1.5 wraiths in return.
In the main assault, things go poorly for my wraiths and I begin to sweat. His re-rollable Herald is locked in a challenge with my D-lord. Both him and 1 crusher fail their Mindshackle tests. However, Skulltaker is a boss and insta-gibs 2 wraiths all by himself. The rest of the unit manages to kill another 1 wraith. In return, I do 15 wounds to the Khorne-star and my opponent proceeds to pass 14 out of 15 3++ saves!!!
Crap, I hope this isn't going to be one of those games....
Daemons 2
Spoiler:
Fatey has no choice but to fly off the table, but not before casting Forewarning on the Khorne-star.
2 units of plaguebearers come in, one in my deployment zone and the other in his.
A buffed-up DP goes after my annihilation barge (AB).
In close-combat, I can do nothing to his 2++ Khorne-star. However, he would fail both of his MSS tests once again and only manage to cause 1W to my wraiths this turn.
Here, Gary makes a huge mistake. He chooses to resolve this combat first. What he should have done was to do the DP-annihilation barge combat first for First Blood. If this were a casual game, I would have told him so. Alas, in tournament play, I believe you need to learn from your mistakes.
Fortunately for him, I fail to finish off his hounds. 1 hound with 1W remaining survives!
My opponent ends up getting First Blood anyways despite his big mistake. Lucky....
Daemons: 1, Necrons: 0
Necrons 2
Spoiler:
With no other real targets to go after, I go for his DP. Unfortunately for me, only 1 of my night scythes come in!
Despite being on the ground, I fail to kill his DP due to T7-8 from Iron Arm and good saves on his part. I think I do 1 or 2W to him.
We go straight to combat. Gary rolls poorly in combat, killing only 1 wraith. I then take out 1 Herald in combat and then 1 crusher with Daemonic Instability.
Daemons: 1, Necrons: 1
My other unit of wraiths finish off his lone flesh hound.
Daemons: 1, Necrons: 2
Daemons 3
Spoiler:
This turn, the tide begins to turn.
Plaguebearers come in but scatter off the table. My opponent then rolls a on the Mishap table - they are destroyed! Now he has a decision to make. Does he use Fatey's re-roll now or save it for later. He decides to save it for later.
Daemons: 1, Necrons: 3
It's actually a good thing he saved the re-roll, because the Khorne-star would fail their Grimoire attempt! He then uses Fatey's re-roll to pass the Grimoire.
Fatey comes in and goes after my wraiths. BTW, this turn, his DP Enfeebles the unit of wraiths that Fatey is about to shoot down!
Aaaargh! Disaster strikes for my opponent as he Perils with Fatey on box-cars (6,6) while trying to cast Flickering Fire. The Perils also kill off Fatey, who only had 1W remaining.
Daemons: 1, Necrons: 4
Karanak, who had split off from the unit of Turn 1, charges into the main melee.
His DP charges another AB. He immobilizes it and takes off its secondary gun, but it is still alive.
My opponent's woes continue. He whiffs brutally in combat. None of his guys have passed Mindshackles all game. I then wipe out his bloodcrushers and Karanak evaporates through Daemonic Instability as well!
Daemons: 1, Necrons: 6
Wow, what a brutal turn for my opponent. I actually felt really bad for him this turn and was secretly rooting for him to kill my wraiths. Unfortunately, his dice just took a major dump this turn.
Necrons 3
Spoiler:
Bye bye Daemon Prince. It was nice knowing you.
He actually survives my shooting!
Wraiths and 1 flyer goes after his plaguebearers on my objective.
I shoot down 3.
Assault finishes off the rest.
Daemons: 1, Necrons: 7
I then assault his DP.
Mindshackle forces the DP to insta-gib himself (S6 + Staff of Change + Iron Arm).
Daemons: 1, Necrons: 8
Daemons 4
Spoiler:
Grinder shoots down 1 wraith.
In combat, I finish off his re-rollable Herald and he finishes off my lone wraith.
Necrons 4
Spoiler:
Now it's just a matter of clean-up.
Flyers zig-zag around.
I go after his last troops.
Wraithstar assaults the grinder.
He loses both the grinder....
....and Skulltaker in combat.
My opponent only has 1 troop left on the table and next turn, I will be assaulting them with my wraiths. With that, my opponent concedes.
Crushing Victory to the Metallic Dead - Necrons!!!
That was a brutal game for my opponent. It started off well enough for him - me failing to hurt his Khorne-star with only 3++ saves, me failing to get the easy First Blood and with only 1 of my flyers coming in on T2. Then on T3, his dice just took a nosedive. Almost everything that could have gone wrong for him did. But Gary was very cool about it despite his awful dice and he took it with a smile (though a painful one). It was a pleasure playing against Gary. He was one of my favorite opponents in the event because of his great attitude and I would gladly give him a rematch if ever we meet again in the future.
Red Corsair wrote: It is hilariously sad however when no one recognizes some one like Wapel. I intentionally held back for a while just to see if anyone else would recognize him, apparently not. It just shows the community isn't recognizing these aspects anymore.
The what now?
I saw an awful lot of people stopping and checking out his army, and chatting to him about it. He was most definitely 'recognised'.
The fact that the guy who won the event got more attention than the guy with the prettiest army is hardly a sign that there is something wrong with the community.
I mean online after the fact. I here WAY more chatter on dakka about top 16. Sorry to be unclear.
It was a competitive event. There will be alot of chatter on who won, who lost, whose dice screwed them, etc. Just look at those pictures. Any given painter, modeler etc does not stand out in cases like that. And you can go on the internet and find lots of "pro" painters
Red Corsair wrote: It is hilariously sad however when no one recognizes some one like Wapel. I intentionally held back for a while just to see if anyone else would recognize him, apparently not. It just shows the community isn't recognizing these aspects anymore.
The what now?
I saw an awful lot of people stopping and checking out his army, and chatting to him about it. He was most definitely 'recognised'.
The fact that the guy who won the event got more attention than the guy with the prettiest army is hardly a sign that there is something wrong with the community.
I mean online after the fact. I here WAY more chatter on dakka about top 16. Sorry to be unclear.
It was a competitive event. There will be alot of chatter on who won, who lost, whose dice screwed them, etc. Just look at those pictures. Any given painter, modeler etc does not stand out in cases like that. And you can go on the internet and find lots of "pro" painters
That's a very fair point.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @jy2- can't wait to see this. Your list is a 5th to 6th adaption basically trading ghost arcs for NS and not utilizing allies at all which I am a fan of. Through back I suppose . I have been using only primary detachment myself lately. I fear the adepticon mission packet is working against you though. Maybe .
Not that its a terribly big deal, but you said the tzeentch prince instakilled himself in combat while having ironarm up-he can't do that as ironarm gives eternal warrior to the caster. You probably would have still wiped him out it seems, but good to know.
thanatos67 wrote: Not that its a terribly big deal, but you said the tzeentch prince instakilled himself in combat while having ironarm up-he can't do that as ironarm gives eternal warrior to the caster. You probably would have still wiped him out it seems, but good to know.
Good catch. We forgot about that, though he only had 1 or 2W left anyways with my Lord yet to attack.
I do love your reports, some of the most detailed and fun to read ones on Dakka and show case high level play very well.
The only thing i would of liked to see was if you used your Tyranids instead as i find your Necron list, well to be blunt, a little bit repetitive. That is no indication on you and just my personal preference but i am simply thinking i would of preferred you to play an army not commonly referred to as top tier and still win as who doesn't like to route for the underdog? It's hard to be the underdog when you are trolling with MSS :(
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: I do love your reports, some of the most detailed and fun to read ones on Dakka and show case high level play very well.
The only thing i would of liked to see was if you used your Tyranids instead as i find your Necron list, well to be blunt, a little bit repetitive. That is no indication on you and just my personal preference but i am simply thinking i would of preferred you to play an army not commonly referred to as top tier and still win as who doesn't like to route for the underdog? It's hard to be the underdog when you are trolling with MSS :(
I think the point JY2 is trying to make is that this list is still competitive in today's meta.
Weird choice to have Nurgle's Soulgrinder with Baleful torrent. It has no reach and when it eventually gets anywhere it can't use the torrent as everyone is already in CC. That said I run mine with the same setup
A very interesting list on your opponent, but some of it doesn't make sense.
I don't see the point of MoN over MoS on that grinder, MoS is amazing with that setup.
That heraldstar is really cool! The only problem is mindshackle scarabs kill them without repurcussion, especially with daemons having such low native leadership.
thanatos67 wrote: Not that its a terribly big deal, but you said the tzeentch prince instakilled himself in combat while having ironarm up-he can't do that as ironarm gives eternal warrior to the caster. You probably would have still wiped him out it seems, but good to know.
Good catch. We forgot about that, though he only had 1 or 2W left anyways with my Lord yet to attack.
Not to mention the extra toughness (so the DP would be min. T6 ergo immune to insta-gibbing except by force or weapons with ID) which is all negated by it having EW :-P
Why did Karanak only get involved turn 3? It looks like he split off from the other heralds, and could have gotten involved in either wraiths vs. flesh hounds or the crushers vs. wraiths combat pretty easily. Also why did he not enfeeble the wraiths turn 2? That could have been huge, especially with Karanak charging in with his 6 Str6 attacks re-rolling to hit and to wound, not to mention it'd make the crushers harder to hurt(T5 majority) and they'd be wounding more easily against the wraiths.
herpguy wrote: A very interesting list on your opponent, but some of it doesn't make sense.
I don't see the point of MoN over MoS on that grinder, MoS is amazing with that setup.
That heraldstar is really cool! The only problem is mindshackle scarabs kill them without repurcussion, especially with daemons having such low native leadership.
The way round it is to get the charge, as MSS and scarabs both occur before blows are struck you choose to resolve MSS before issuing/accepting challenges, that way you get a bloodcrusher to suck up the MSS test, while the herald goes to town on the DLord in the challenge. However as Jy2 got the charge (controlling player) he gets to choose the order of MSS and challenges.
Shandara wrote: Mind-shackle trumps daemons again I see, poor Heralds.
Yeah, I think Necrons can match up well against certain Daemon armies. They've got teslas to take on those FMC's and Mindshackles for the really nasty CC-daemons.
I would have loved to play against Nick Nanavati's tournament-winning FMC daemons to test out my theory.
Iechine wrote: I always read your stuff and have wondered for a while, how do you keep track of everything that happened for your reports?
Do you note things down on paper as the game goes or does your memory serve you particularly well for batreps?
I only take notes for psychic powers, warlord traits and things like that. Otherwise, I go by pictures and memory. Pictures really do help a lot to recall the battle, especially when you use markers to let the audience know what is happening (for example, I use dice to show how many have died in close combat).
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: I do love your reports, some of the most detailed and fun to read ones on Dakka and show case high level play very well.
The only thing i would of liked to see was if you used your Tyranids instead as i find your Necron list, well to be blunt, a little bit repetitive. That is no indication on you and just my personal preference but i am simply thinking i would of preferred you to play an army not commonly referred to as top tier and still win as who doesn't like to route for the underdog? It's hard to be the underdog when you are trolling with MSS :(
I promise, the next major GT I attend will be with bugs. Don't worry, they will get their time to shine. But for this tourney, I felt that I still had something to prove (or to test out) with my crons.
Also keep in mind that, as much as I like to write my reports to share with the audience, ultimately, what I take to the tournament is my choice/preference and that I love all my armies equally. Bugs will get their chance. It's just that Adepticon wasn't it.
Naw wrote: Weird choice to have Nurgle's Soulgrinder with Baleful torrent. It has no reach and when it eventually gets anywhere it can't use the torrent as everyone is already in CC. That said I run mine with the same setup
herpguy wrote: A very interesting list on your opponent, but some of it doesn't make sense.
I don't see the point of MoN over MoS on that grinder, MoS is amazing with that setup.
That heraldstar is really cool! The only problem is mindshackle scarabs kill them without repurcussion, especially with daemons having such low native leadership.
Personally, I'd go with the MoS on the grinder also. I don't know why exactly he chose to give it the MoN, but I have a feeling that he uses it more as a defensive counter-assault unit than an aggressively forward-rushing unit. In such a case, the Shroud ability of the MoN is probably better.
Yeah, MSS is a daemon player's worst nightmare. I've killed many a FMC with them.
CaptainJay wrote: Why did Karanak only get involved turn 3? It looks like he split off from the other heralds, and could have gotten involved in either wraiths vs. flesh hounds or the crushers vs. wraiths combat pretty easily. Also why did he not enfeeble the wraiths turn 2? That could have been huge, especially with Karanak charging in with his 6 Str6 attacks re-rolling to hit and to wound, not to mention it'd make the crushers harder to hurt(T5 majority) and they'd be wounding more easily against the wraiths.
I think he uses Karanak to hunt down MSU troops and such. Him rushing into combat was a last-ditched desperation attempt by my opponent to try to turn the tide of combat.
I didn't mention it, but he did Enfeeble one of my wraithstars on T2. It's just that I was making my saves and he didn't roll so well on his attacks.
On T3, he decided to Enfeeble my freed unit of wraiths so that Fatey could shoot them down.
His crushers were majority T5 throughout the battle.
Have you considered unit of ~30 hormagaunts with poison? Good, fast unit, capable of killing wraithknight in combat and much more, moreover nice tarpit, and its scoring. overall.
Also quad-gun on bastion is fine.
Venom&Zoan is nice choose, I would take it either myself. Harpy is interesting, better than triple crone?
Red Corsair wrote: Heres an example, in your list of photos is James Wapel and his AMAZING guard army which took best army. Second year running actually. Heres his blog:
Thanks for pointing him out. I've seen his work online. I just didn't know that that was him at Adepticon. His army and display was just jaw-droppingly gorgeous.
SabrX wrote: Wow, so many beautifully painted armies! I look forward to reading this battle report. I also look forward to seeing what list Jy2 brought.
Hi SabrX, long time no talk.
I look forwards to the day you come back to 40K. Sisters FTW!
DirtyDeeds wrote: Thanks for the very detailed and interesting report on Adepticon! It's very interesting and incredibly enlightening!
You're welcome!
Red Corsair wrote: @jy2- can't wait to see this. Your list is a 5th to 6th adaption basically trading ghost arcs for NS and not utilizing allies at all which I am a fan of. Through back I suppose . I have been using only primary detachment myself lately. I fear the adepticon mission packet is working against you though. Maybe .
Yeah, while I do run competitive armies, I prefer to keep allies to a minimal. I'm more of a "purist" in that I prefer to run pure armies as opposed to adding in allies and all that new stuff.
I feel that the Necrons are still so strong that no matter what type of mission/opponent you throw at them, they still have a decent chance for victory. Wraithwing necrons are incredibly balanced if anything.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SwistakCZC wrote: Have you considered unit of ~30 hormagaunts with poison? Good, fast unit, capable of killing wraithknight in combat and much more, moreover nice tarpit, and its scoring. overall.
Also quad-gun on bastion is fine.
Venom&Zoan is nice choose, I would take it either myself. Harpy is interesting, better than triple crone?
Hormagants with poison is just too expensive for my taste. I will run them for fun, but I most likely won't be taking them in my tournament TAC bug list.
Harpy is mainly because of the points. Currently, if I take 3x Crones, I would have to drop something, either the Comms, my 10-gant unit or 1 biovore. Harpy lets me keep them. He can also be quite useful against Imperial Knights, which will be more prevalent in future tournaments, and for his anti-infantry capabilities as well.
I am very psyched that the new IG book (stupid renaming) looks to be very doable as a purist. If I ally at all it will be for modeling purposes for my iron warriors/sm counts as army. Something about iron warriors goading conscripts in prison orange into a meat grinder makes me grin ear to ear
Its been hard these last few months making pure DE lists that have much variety while having an edge.
Necrons have the advantage of being a dex with durable entries, those books generally age better then the armies with fragile units from my experience. I think they will be good until their update, then heaven help us! I look forward to MSS possibly getting nerfed but dread what new large kit they probably will gain Super sized space shrimp anyone?
jy2 wrote: Yeah, I think Necrons can match up well against certain Daemon armies. They've got teslas to take on those FMC's and Mindshackles for the really nasty CC-daemons.
I would have loved to play against Nick Nanavati's tournament-winning FMC daemons to test out my theory.
My friend who I playtest against most frequently plays a version of FMC Spam Daemons, and in my experience it's a slightly uphill battle for the Necrons. Especially if the Daemon player is smart enough to recognize that Biomancy doesn't really do much for them and roll on Telepathy instead (or brings Be'lakor). Terrify and Hallucinate really make Wraith squads sad (especially when backed by Fateweaver's reroll for the Hallucinate table). I haven't tried it with 3 Wraith squads though, maybe that would swing things. It's definitely a close match and getting 2nd turn is almost required for the Necrons to have a chance.
The biggest problem is that while Tesla does a good job of hitting and wounding, the 3+ Reroll 1's Armor save is a pain to get through. And with Fateweaver's reroll in your turn, it's a pain to ground the FMCs so that the Wraiths can actually do something.
jy2 wrote: Yeah, I think Necrons can match up well against certain Daemon armies. They've got teslas to take on those FMC's and Mindshackles for the really nasty CC-daemons.
I would have loved to play against Nick Nanavati's tournament-winning FMC daemons to test out my theory.
My friend who I playtest against most frequently plays a version of FMC Spam Daemons, and in my experience it's a slightly uphill battle for the Necrons. Especially if the Daemon player is smart enough to recognize that Biomancy doesn't really do much for them and roll on Telepathy instead (or brings Be'lakor). Terrify and Hallucinate really make Wraith squads sad (especially when backed by Fateweaver's reroll for the Hallucinate table). I haven't tried it with 3 Wraith squads though, maybe that would swing things. It's definitely a close match and getting 2nd turn is almost required for the Necrons to have a chance.
The biggest problem is that while Tesla does a good job of hitting and wounding, the 3+ Reroll 1's Armor save is a pain to get through. And with Fateweaver's reroll in your turn, it's a pain to ground the FMCs so that the Wraiths can actually do something.
Yeah, Daemons become super-tough with Be'lakor around. Terrify, Hallucinate and Misfortune are probably the wraiths' biggest nightmares. I also spent all my firepower and still couldn't kill 1 DP in my 1st game (granted, he was T7-8 for the turns I was shooting at him).
The thing is, you have to surgically remove 1 FMC at a time, starting with Fatey, Be'lakor or the Grimoire holder (take your pick on whoever is most vulnerable). Keep in mind that the turn they fly off the table, when they come back in next turn, they won't be able to cast those psychic buffs. Also, keep your wraiths together for counter-assault purposes.
If they get good psychic powers, then you're in trouble. When daemons get good psychic powers, there is no army they can't beat.
jy2 wrote: Keep in mind that the turn they fly off the table, when they come back in next turn, they won't be able to cast those psychic buffs.
per RBFAQ controlling player choose what occurs first so IMO it is legal that DP enter from reserve and cast psychic buffs
Q: Blessings are manifested ‘at the start of the Psyker’s Movement
phase’ – does this mean they happen simultaneously with Reserves
rolls, Outflanking rolls etc and if so which is resolved first? (p68)
A: They do occur simultaneously – as such, the player whose
turn it is decides in what order these things occur as per
page 9 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook
In the BRB, it explicitly states that a unit coming in from Reserves cannot cast any psychic powers that are done at the beginning of the Movement phase. Sorry, don't have my BRB with me so can't quote the page #.
However, if there is a psyker on the table already, then the player can choose to bring in Reserves and then have the psyker on the table cast the power on the newly arrived unit.
Ignoring the joke about that FAQ entry being illegal now that they're not on the GW website ;p. that is not what that FAQ means.
Roll reserves, cast psychic powers;end of "before movement" phase; move reserves onto table.
That's the order of operations so it is illegal to cast blessing/maledictions by or on you the turn you come on from reserves. That's meant to be able to use scriers gaze.
Adepticon uses only Primary and Secondary objectives. The Primary Objectives always consists of 2 missions. It's actually quite simple. If you get more Primary Objectives than your opponent, you earn a Crushing Victory. Otherwise, if the Primary is tied, then you go on to the Secondaries. The Secondaries consist of First Blood, Linebreaker and Slay the Warlord. If you tie on the Primary and win via Secondaries, then it is a Minor Victory.
Primary Objectives:
1. The Relic
2. Holy Ground - The player that controls the most Terrain features at the end of the game with Scoring units.
Secondary Objectives: First Blood, Linebreaker and Slay the Warlord
What am I smoking? I actually won the roll to go 1st, but in a fit of insanity, I decided to let my opponent, Chuck, go first. Even he was surprised. So I am willing to risk his alpha-strike in order to get the final say on the objectives. He has 5 wave serpents and 2 wraithknights shooting, all of his shooting will practically be twin-linked and wounding on 2's and he's going to get at least 2 turns of shooting before I am even anywhere within striking range. Gulp!
It's a risky gamble. Then again, I'm one to takes those risks. I'm prepared to lose a lot of wraiths. My strategy is just to keep him away from the middle (and the Relic). This is my strategy of Positional Dominance. Control the Movement phase and you have the advantage in an objectives-based scenario. While he is busy killing my wraiths, his troops are going to be out of position relative to the objectives. That is how I am going to win this game, not by my offense but by good positioning. Or so I hope.
In any case, I am expecting heavy casualties this game. I am also hoping for the game to end on Turn 5. I have a feeling that I am going to need it!
I deploy hard to the left. The only way to survive his shooting is to deny as much of it as possible. By refusing his flank, I deny the shooting of possibly his 2 right-most serpents.
Mechdar movement. I believe he fails to get Guide off on one of the Wraithknights (WK's).
The Scatter Lasers of 2 of his serpents are out of range. He actually makes a mistake here (and I didn't catch it) and fires their Serpent Shields despite them being "out-of-range" due to Night-fight.
He ends up killing 2 wraiths from each of my wraithstar units.
Necrons 1
Spoiler:
I advance. D-lord joins the unit of fresh wraiths. My barges have to move 12" to get into range to shoot so they will only be snap-firing this turn.
Despite snap-firing and 3+ cover due to Night-fight and Holo-fields, my barge gets a lucky shot which hits the fusilage of his serpent and blows it up! 1 dire avenger dies to the burning flames.
First Blood to the crons!
Wraiths then run.
Mechdar 2
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 2.
The Eldar continues to back away from my wraiths.
Serpent and dires back away as well.
My opponent makes a mistake and casts Hallucination on my big wraithstar unit in the Shooting phase (it should have been done at the beginning of the Movement phase). Unfortunately, I didn't catch this until the end of the phase so I let it go. My wraithstar gets stuck this turn (cannot move, shoot or fight in combat)! Ouch!
Eldar shooting then takes out 3 wraiths and downs my non-Warlord Destroyer Lord.
Fortunately for me, he gets back up.
Despite 2 gaffes from my opponent and the fact that one of my wraithstars are "pinned", I'm actually not that far behind thanks to a couple of lucky rolls - First Blood and my D-lord getting back up.
Now for my Master Plan to unfold. Heh, heh....
Necrons 2
Spoiler:
This wasn't my original plan, but then I noticed it after Turn 1. As I advanced, my opponent was backing up....slowly towards my side of the table. My eyes begin to light up and I could barely contain my excitement. Now for my master plan to come to fruition.
My opponent forgot to check his six (that's pilot lingo for check his rear)!
BAM! All 4 of my flyers come in from reserves and I had him right where I wanted....with his backdoor to my guns!
Wraiths advance (except for the Hallucinated unit). Barges move 12".
This is a devastating turn for my opponent. I take out 2 serpents and drop the other down to just 1 HP remaining. 1 avenger dies in the explosion but none gets pinned.
Barge takes out 2 avengers.
Wraiths run.
Mechdar 3
Spoiler:
The tide has turned. I've taken out 3 serpents already. Eldar continues to back away from my wraiths.
Avengers head towards terrain.
Crap. His farseer Hallucinates my Warlord's unit and they become paralyzed!
Eldar shooting kills 1 wraith, puts 1W on my Warlord and immobilizes an AB.
Necrons 3
Spoiler:
I go after his troops.
This is why Immortals are better than Warriors.
Their S5 AP4 gauss blasters wipe out the avengers.
Flyers have options for targets, including the farseers, 1 wave serpent and the wraithknights. Guess which ones I go after? I'll give you a hint....f*ck Hallucination.
The rest of my army - other than my Warlord's unit - advances.
I kill both the Hallucination farseer and his 4th wave serpent. I believe arcing (or maybe my barges) does some wounds to the other farseer and a WK.
Wraiths then assault and wipe out another unit of avengers. I then consolidate into terrain in case he assaults the wraithstar with this WK.
Another great turn for me. I wipe out 1 farseer, 1 serpent and 2 troops this turn.
Mechdar 4
Spoiler:
It's not over yet. Eldar has got a lot of fight in them still.
Serpent goes after my immortals.
WK's now go on the offensive.
Inquisitor finally comes in. Avengers back away from my wraiths.
The wave serpent only manages to take down 2 immortals (after Reanimation Protocols).
WK shoots and then assaults my AB.
He leaves behind a crater.
Necrons 4
Spoiler:
Time to get into position for the win.
Flyer moves close to the Relic in preparation for dropping off my troops on it next turn. Wraithstar prepares to tie up the WK's. Lone wraith with 1W remaining go after his farseer with 1W remaining.
Immortals try to take cover behind terrain. 1 night comes in from Ongoing Reserves and goes after the last wave serpent. I fail to get through its holo-fielded saves.
Night scythe drops off warriors to go after the avengers. I roll poorly to hit and they make their saves. I think I only manage to kill 1 or 2 avengers.
I also drop off my other unit of immortals to take out his troops. However, they go-to-ground and only 1 avenger dies.
Night scythe takes out the farseer.
Both wraithstars assault both WK's.
He fails Mindshackles for both and I end up doing a total of 4W to them.
Mechdar 5
Spoiler:
His last serpent targets my other unit of immortals. This time, he wipes them out! Crap, that's not good.
The other avengers shoot at my warriors. I go-to-ground. They kill 1 but he gets back up. My opponent then charges in with the avengers and the Inquisitor.
Fortunately for me, they hold.
In the other combat, I finish off his Warlord WK and he kills 1 of my wraiths.
Necrons 5
Spoiler:
So here's the situation. We currently both have 1 terrain (his avengers, my immortals) with 1 terrain being contested (avengers, Inquisitor and warriors). I will get the Relic. However, to make it into the round of Sweet 16 (Game #5), I need to try to get as many objective points as I can. Thus, I need to try to wrestle the Terrain objective from my opponent.
Dun dun dun dun. Here comes Necron death!
Night scythe drops off my warriors onto the Relic.
Other night scythe goes after his avengers.
I finally wreck his last serpent.
I also manage to kill his avengers in terrain!
WK dies to mindshackles and warscythes.
Last but not least, I make it into combat and wipe out both the avengers and Inquisitor.
At this point, my opponent only has 1 unit of dire avengers left and there is no chance for them to do anything so we end it here. I get full points.
Crushing Victory to the Metallic Dead - Necrons!!!
Wow...I did not expect Necron domination in this game. I actually expected a barn-burner of a game in which I had to fight both tooth and nail just to scrape by with a very close victory. I took a huge gamble going 2nd, but it turned out to be quite a successful gambit. Never in my wildest dreams did I expect my opponent to gift-wrap this game for me by giving me rear armour to shoot. Despite him going 1st and despite 2 successful Hallucinations, I really caught some big breaks in this game:
1. Getting First Blood with snapshots and 3+ cover for my opponent.
2. My D-lord getting back up on a 5+.
3. All my flyers coming in on Turn 2 when I really needed them to.
4. My opponent failing all but 1 MSS test for his WK's (I believe he failed 5-6 of them!).
5. My opponent made a huge mistake by exposing the rear of his serpents to me.
Overall, this game turned out much better than I had hoped. But now with almost full points (just missed out on full points by First Blood in my 1st game), I know I'm going to have a tough, tough matchup next turn. I can't wait!
I look forward to seeing this batrep. I played against a VERY similar list to this at a tournament and it was a very uphill battle with my daemons. I think I was in place to win if it ended turn 5 but it didn't and the serpent shields did oh so much damage...
Good going so far! And you say "my barges have to snap-shoot" as if that's a BAD thing... I'm pretty sure its more likely to blow up a Serpent that way!
herpguy wrote: I look forward to seeing this batrep. I played against a VERY similar list to this at a tournament and it was a very uphill battle with my daemons. I think I was in place to win if it ended turn 5 but it didn't and the serpent shields did oh so much damage...
Yeah, mechdar firepower is scary good. If you can't take out those serpents early, you're in trouble.
jifel wrote: Good going so far! And you say "my barges have to snap-shoot" as if that's a BAD thing... I'm pretty sure its more likely to blow up a Serpent that way!
Haha....true dat! Teslas are the best guns to have when you need to roll 's to hit.
quickfuze wrote: Wow, min/max wave serpent spam with double knight and a servo-skull caddy. How frigg'n original. I hope you stomp this list.
Well, I wouldn't call my list original either. Both are tried and true tournament builds. However, most just don't like serpent spam because....well, just because they're Eldar.
Thanks for theses great pictures and battle reports !
One thing i don't understand. In game 2, how can you put your flyers like you did when they come in whereas they must make a 18ps movement minimum and they must come only from your side of the board ?
tetsuo666 wrote: Thanks for theses great pictures and battle reports !
One thing i don't understand. In game 2, how can you put your flyers like you did when they come in whereas they must make a 18ps movement minimum and they must come only from your side of the board ?
They did come in from my board edge. Keep in mind that this was Vanguard Strike and not Hammer & Anvil.
jifel wrote: Good going so far! And you say "my barges have to snap-shoot" as if that's a BAD thing... I'm pretty sure its more likely to blow up a Serpent that way!
Yeah, I chuckle every time a Necron player says "despite snap firing..." Only GW would design a weapon that averages more hits then it has shots while under a BRB "disadvantage" LOL
Great game, I would have been smiling ear tpo ear if I saw the backs of my opponents WS, good job containing your excitement. Though Had I been playing only 1 or 2 NS would have arrived
To steal someones coined phrase: Positional Dominance ftw...
The dice gods where on your side for the most part, I still think without a few of those things happening your play would have given you the win. Maybe not the crushing victory but a win none the less.
Was brave to go second but someone earlier said it, and I agree, crons do their best going second. Esp on missions like this. Eldar are far to fast to allow them last turn to grab things.
tetsuo666 wrote: Thanks for theses great pictures and battle reports !
One thing i don't understand. In game 2, how can you put your flyers like you did when they come in whereas they must make a 18ps movement minimum and they must come only from your side of the board ?
They did come in from my board edge. Keep in mind that this was Vanguard Strike and not Hammer & Anvil.
He did not catch that the Eldar player was kiting to his left, which put him at your board edge. Although it does look like the Scythe closest to the edge did not go far enough.
jy2 wrote: They did come in from my board edge. Keep in mind that this was Vanguard Strike and not Hammer & Anvil.
Flyers can't rotate after moving if i well remember so your flyer nearest of the board edge can't be there and for the others it seems very limit.
He isn't rotating at all, he is just coming in at an extreme facing.
Guys I am sure it was legit, I have been fooled by some of these batrep pics. The angles and depth in some of the pictures just makes it look like the distance and spacing is wrong, I am sure he played it correct.
tetsuo666 wrote: Thanks for theses great pictures and battle reports !
One thing i don't understand. In game 2, how can you put your flyers like you did when they come in whereas they must make a 18ps movement minimum and they must come only from your side of the board ?
They did come in from my board edge. Keep in mind that this was Vanguard Strike and not Hammer & Anvil.
He did not catch that the Eldar player was kiting to his left, which put him at your board edge. Although it does look like the Scythe closest to the edge did not go far enough.
jy2 wrote: They did come in from my board edge. Keep in mind that this was Vanguard Strike and not Hammer & Anvil.
Flyers can't rotate after moving if i well remember so your flyer nearest of the board edge can't be there and for the others it seems very limit.
I just didn't angle my night scythe perfectly.
There was enough room for it to move 18" and I still had rear armour, even if I hadn't positioned my night scythe 100% perfectly (I was playing kinda fast).
My opponent knew my intent and the legality of the move and didn't even bother to tell me to re-adjust my scythe's final positioning.
Commander_Farsight wrote: Great game! Yet another amazing batrep too! Thanks, and I'm looking forward to the next game.
Thanks. The next battle is going to be against a "new" old-school deathstar - the Farsight-bomb!
I am really looking forward to it!! I'll see how it compares to my Farsight Bomb (I have gotten a lot better with my O'Vesa star in general too if you are up for a rematch)
This round I get paired up against Kevin and this deathstar Taudar army. Kevin must be up there in points if he was to face me, and I can easily see why. Tau are very, very good and the Farsight-bomb is one of the best Deathstars out there IMO. As a matter of fact, at one point, I was considering running Tau just because I wanted to run the Farsight-bomb (or rather, the Farsun-bomb). The only difference between Kevin's builds and a lot of the other Farsight-bomb builds out there is that his is slightly fluffier (no Shadowsun) and he is running an Autarch ally rather than a Farseer (IMO, the Farseer would have been a much more efficient choice). In any case, his army is going to be a HUGE obstacle to my Necrons in their quest to make it to the Sweet 16.
Farsight
Tau "Toolbox" Commander (aka the Buffmander) - Command & Control Node, Multi-spectrum Sensor Suite, Puretide Engram Neurochip, Neuroweb System Jammer, Repulsor Impact Field, Stimulant Injector, Vectored Retro-thrusters, Iridium Armor, 2x Flamers
Riptide - Early Warning Override, Ion Accelerator, Velocity Tracker, TL-Smart Missile Systems
Riptide - Early Warning Override, Ion Accelerator, Velocity Tracker, TL-Smart Missile Systems
Adepticon uses only Primary and Secondary objectives. The Primary Objectives always consists of 2 missions. It's actually quite simple. If you get more Primary Objectives than your opponent, you earn a Crushing Victory. Otherwise, if the Primary is tied, then you go on to the Secondaries. The Secondaries consist of First Blood, Linebreaker and Slay the Warlord. If you tie on the Primary and win via Secondaries, then it is a Minor Victory.
Primary Objectives:
1. Victory Points
2. The Scouring - Fast Attacks are scoring. However, if you kill a FA, then it counts as 2 VP's for Primary Objective #1 instead. You must control 7+ pts worth of objectives to win this!
Secondary Objectives: First Blood, Linebreaker and Slay the Warlord
Of all the armies that I've faced with my crons, Tau is one of the toughest matchups for them consistently. They give me more problems than even Eldar. And what's worse than playing against Tau(dar) is playing against Tau(dar) in Hammer & Anvil deployment. I swear, I hate playing against Tau in H&A deployment. There are very few cases where I would want to go 1st with my Necrons. This is actually one of them. Tau shooting is just brutal. Playing against them in Hammer & Anvil, I would actually prefer to go 1st despite this being an objectives-based mission. Seriously, even my wraithwing crons can't sustain prolonged shooting from the Tau.
I feel that this might actually be a slightly uphill battle for my crons. Normally, my crons are strong in the Scouring missions due to scoring Wraiths. However, in Adepticon's Scouring, you actually have to secure at least 7-pts worth of objectives to win the Scouring! That means I'd have to get 2 of the 3-pt objectives and a 1-pt objective (or any similar combos) without any of them being contested. That's actually damn hard to do, especially in face of Tau firepower. I have a feeling that neither of us is going to get the Scouring, which means that we're basically looking at Victory Points as the deciding factor. In this case, Tau actually have a slight advantage IMO. First of all, they have less VP's. Secondly, some of their VP's (riptides, his deathstar) are actually quite hard to get. Third, my wraiths - which will die - are worth double-VP's because they are Fast Attack. Lastly, his Farsight-bomb could potentially kill all 3 of my Annihilation Barges on the turn it comes in!
In order to play against Kevin's army, I am going to have to play the denial game. That means I am going to have to put my AB's in reserves....in Hammer & Anvil deployment! Fortunately for me, I do have 1 HUGE advantage. I get the Warlord Trait that lets me re-roll my Reserves. The last time I beat Tau in tournament play was because I got this Warlord trait (Game #3 vs Israel's Tau + Eldar). Now let's see if I can do it again.
I get the Warlord Trait that let's me re-roll my reserves.
Taudar deployment. Troops and his deathstar in reserves. With any luck, hopefully his deathstar doesn't come in until Turn 4.
My deployment. Because of all the Ion Accelerators, I am forced to spread out my wraiths. Also, because of Kevin's Farsight-bomb being in reserves, I am force to put my Annihilation Barges (AB's) in reserves as well.
Overview of our deployment.
Kevin then infiltrates 1 unit of kroots and outflanks with the other one.
Due to me spreading out, his shooting only kills 1 wraith, takes off 1W from the other one and puts 1W on one of my D-lords.
Necrons 1
Spoiler:
Wraiths full speed ahead!
Taudar 2
Spoiler:
The Farsight-bomb comes in. Kroots back away.
The cowardly Tau continue to retreat.
My opponent makes a slight mistake here. He fires his kroots at my wraiths and actually kill 3 out of 4! This limited how many wraiths his Farsight-bomb could kill, as their fusions were only in range of the 1 remaining wraith.
The rest of his shooting finishes off the unit for First Blood. It also takes out 2 wraiths from my Warlord's unit.
VP's - Necrons: 0, Taudar: 2
His guys then do their jump moves in the Assault phase to get away. Unfortunately for him, his Farsight-bomb jumps only 4".
Necrons 2
Spoiler:
This turn, ALL of my reserves come in. My opponent makes a mistake. He actually places his Farsight-bomb too close to my deployment zone. Well, I can't say it was completely his mistake. The 4" JSJ assault move of theirs last turn didn't exactly help their cause. In any case, all 7 of my teslas are in range, though I had to move my AB's 12" in order to do so (they will be snap-shooting).
Wraiths are too far from the Farsight-bomb and will go after his kroots instead.
The rest of my wraiths advance.
Another successful beta-strike by the crons! I kill a total of 4 suits and 2 drones, including his Toolbox Commander!
VP's - Necrons: 1, Taudar: 2
I also kill 4 kroots. They may be falling back (not quite sure).
Taudar 3
Spoiler:
Kroots come in. They rapid-fire into my wraiths but roll horribly and fail to kill any wraiths.
Tau movement. Farsight-bomb tries to get within plasma double-tap/fusion range of my wraithstar. Riptides move to the edge of the world. If they're not careful, they just might fall off next turn.
Marker drones back away as well.
The Tau manage only to kill 1 wraith and to put another 1W on my Warlord. That's not what I call "getting it done".
Necrons 3
Spoiler:
Barges go after his deathstar once again. Night scythes go after other targets. Another night scythe goes after the Marker drones and the last scythe flies off the table.
I shoot down 2 marker drones.
Wraiths will definitely be within range to assault this turn. Both D-lords join the same unit.
Other wraiths go after the newly arrived kroots.
Shooting takes out another 2-3 crisis bodyguards and 3 kroots.
Wraiths charge his kroots.
Kroots actually kill a wraith, but I break the unit in return. They fall back.
My wraithstar then charges what's left of his Farsight-bomb.
I have Farsight hit himself first due to Mindshackles and then issue a challenge afterwards. His Autarch accepts. I actually win combat but the unit is Stubborn and hold.
Taudar 4
Spoiler:
Windrider jetbikes finally come in.
Kroots regroup.
I believe it may have been the skyray which blows up my night scythe.
VP's - Necrons: 1, Taudar: 3
Other shooting takes off 1 HP from one of my flyers.
In combat, Farsight passes his Mindshackle test! My D-lord only has 1W left on him. However, Farsight whiffs with all his attacks and I manage to cause another 1W to Farsight. His deathstar then fails morale and flees!
Necrons 4
Spoiler:
Warriors come in from Ongoing Reserves onto my 1-pt Scouring objective.
I pursue after his HQ's unit.
Barges advance 12" once again.
Night scythe goes after his jetbikes/marker drones. My other night scythe drops off its warriors and then fly off the table.
Shooting wipes out the jetbikes but the marker drones survive.
VP's - Necrons: 2, Taudar: 3
I believe I shoot down his 1st unit of kroots this turn.
VP's - Necrons: 3, Taudar: 3
Wraiths re-assault his kroots and wipe them out.
VP's - Necrons: 4, Taudar: 3
So far, I haven't touched his riptides at all, but I am doing a damn good job taking out his troops. Only 1 left - the marker drones (Fast Attack in the Scouring).
And then I deliver the coup 'de grace. My wraithstar re-charges his Farsight unit. Because they are already falling back, they have to take another LD test to regroup. He fails and they are destroyed! That's Farsight (thus giving me Slay the Warlord), his Autarch and the bodyguards!
VP's - Necrons: 7, Taudar: 3
That was just absolutely brutal, failing 2 LD 10 tests in a row! I'm beginning to feel the frustration of my opponent now.
Taudar 5
Spoiler:
His riptides have no choice but to play aggressively now. Then again, both of my D-lords are down to just 1W left. BTW, I believe that all the wounds on his riptides so far were self-inflicted due to his own Nova Reactor.
My opponent manages to take out another Necron flyer, sending my Immortals back into reserves.
VP's - Necrons: 7, Taudar: 4
Riptides then jump into contesting range of the objective and away from my wraithstar.
Necrons 5
Spoiler:
Night scythe comes in and drops off my Immortals onto a 3-pt objective. Barges advance.
I then split up my forces, with each D-lord going after a riptide and my lone wraith staying to claim the other 3-pt objective.
Warriors move towards the 1-pt objective, making his riptide having to choose between going after them or going after my D-lord.
BTW, my wraiths are on a 2-pt objective.
I believe one of this riptides Intercepts and blows up my 3rd night scythe.
VP's - Necrons: 7, Taudar: 5
My Warlord dies to Overwatch while trying to charge in. The other one makes it into combat.
However, my Warlord would get back up!
His other riptide actually passes his Mindshackle test and proceeds to beat down my other D-lord. Unfortunately for my opponent, he gets back up as well!
Again, I surprised myself in this game. I didn't think I would be able to dominate this matchup. However, I did due to a number of factors:
1. Getting the Warlord Trait allowing me to re-roll my Reserves was absolutely vital to my plans (and also really lucky!). Firstly, it let me preserve some easy VP's. Secondly, it gave me an even more effective Turn 2 beta-strike which really crippled my opponent's firepower.
2. My opponent made the crucial mistake of positioning his Farsight-bomb within striking range of my Turn 2 beta-strike. Of course it didn't help when he rolled low for their assault moves, but he essentially gift-wrapped this win for me with his mistake.
3. The dice. Mine were good. His were bad. I rolled well for my teslas. He rolled poorly on his LD tests.
It was a frustrating game for Kevin, but sometimes, those things just happen. I just hope he was able to shrug it off. In any case, I am beginning to feel the pressure. After 3 strong wins, my opponent next turn will no doubt be a super-strong player. But there is just only 1 more game to go before the Sweet 16. If I can beat my next opponent, then I will make it to Day #2 and the Sweet 16. If not, then I will be done with the Championships (most likely). What I didn't know at the time was that next round, in Game #4, I will be facing an extremely strong player and the winner of the recent Torrent of Fire Tournament of Champions - Tim Goreham and his Centurionstar Space Marines!
The f-bomb in that config loses a number of elements which make the it super-efficient;
-Gun drones for AI and tanking
-All target locked to maximise targeting potential
-SM allies for gate (critical omission to get your deathstar where it needs to be and able to alpha-strike)
-Shadowsun (as mentioned) for 2+ cover (massive increase in survivability)
It is quite vulnerable and must be about 800 points, if he deep strikes it then that's at least a turn of shooting lost.
1. He has bottom of turn in an objective primary with cronair
2. His opponent has rubbish for troops
3. His opponent failed to bring the most crucial elements to the F-bomb, the biggest being the lack of target locks.
4. His wraiths all score and outpace his deathstar, split them in different directions and he can't kill more then one unit in the game I am guessing. That's if he can focus down one unit of wraiths.
800 points that can only move 6 and target one unit a turn isn't gonna slice it.
Will be entertaining I am sure, but I don't think it is a close match at all unless the dice and decisions are wild.
Can't wait to see how my predictions pan out.
How was the terrain this year? The quality has always been nice but I am wondering how much was LoSB?
Great thread JY2! By the way the 6th eldar army on the picture list is mine... the one with orange warriors and turquoise bikes, with the healthy beast pack. And you are right I am from the east coast (Sean Nayden).
The f-bomb in that config loses a number of elements which make the it super-efficient;
-Gun drones for AI and tanking
-All target locked to maximise targeting potential
-SM allies for gate (critical omission to get your deathstar where it needs to be and able to alpha-strike)
-Shadowsun (as mentioned) for 2+ cover (massive increase in survivability)
It is quite vulnerable and must be about 800 points, if he deep strikes it then that's at least a turn of shooting lost.
Hard fought victory for the Necrons IMO.
Yeah, his F-bomb is not the most optimized, but I attribute that to personal taste than probably building a cut-throat list.
Personally, I prefer a jetbike farseer with Shard over SM allies. Unless he goes for Sevrin Loth, Gate is too unreliable to try to get.
1. He has bottom of turn in an objective primary with cronair
2. His opponent has rubbish for troops
3. His opponent failed to bring the most crucial elements to the F-bomb, the biggest being the lack of target locks.
4. His wraiths all score and outpace his deathstar, split them in different directions and he can't kill more then one unit in the game I am guessing. That's if he can focus down one unit of wraiths.
800 points that can only move 6 and target one unit a turn isn't gonna slice it.
Will be entertaining I am sure, but I don't think it is a close match at all unless the dice and decisions are wild.
Can't wait to see how my predictions pan out.
How was the terrain this year? The quality has always been nice but I am wondering how much was LoSB?
All good points. Just 2 counter-points:
1. Fortunately, my opponent's lack of troops (3 + 1 FA drones) is somewhat mitigated by the wonky Scouring mission where you have to win by 7-pts!
2. He does have Target Locks for his fusions and that is all that really matters IMO. Each fusion guy can go for a tank whereas the rest of the army targets infantry. IMO, not everyone in the F-bomb needs Target Locks.
3. Wraiths being scoring actually hurts more than it helps. Even with scoring wraiths, it will be hard to get the Scouring due to its high requirements. However, it actually makes it easier for my opponent to win Victory Points as he will target them anyways and they are worth 2-VP's each.
Terrain is good. There is 6 large pieces of terrain, of which usually 2-3 are LOS-blocking (to a degree). I actually really like the terrain-placing dynamic of Adepticon. With solid terrain, it actually adds another layer of strategy to the game.
OrdoSean wrote: Great thread JY2! By the way the 6th eldar army on the picture list is mine... the one with orange warriors and turquoise bikes, with the healthy beast pack. And you are right I am from the east coast (Sean Nayden).
Cool, I will make a note of your army.
BTW, congrats on your Top 4 finish. Very impressive. Maybe one of these days, we will get to play each. I need some more practice against the beaststar.
herpguy wrote: Great game! It's clearly a pattern for people who bring these netlists to make easy mistakes like this.
That's a bit harsh, it suggests he doesn't know his army. Honestly he could have forgoten jy2's warlord trait (easy thing to do) or was unfamiliar with Necrons (I know it sound strange but it does happen) Mostly it seems like dice were insanely lopsided. The only time the Tau rolled well and jy2 rolled poorly seemed to be his kroot killing the wraiths which actually HURT him ha ha.
Did adepticon use that crappy BAO flier FAQ where they check LOS using 180 degree vertical or did your warriors kill his bikes? If so that ruling is just so game breaking, it makes it impossible to hide anything from fliers like that. It wouldn't matter in this game at all, just curious though.
Good game, but it is game 4 that I have been itching to read TBH. Game 4 is the gateway to your goal and definitely where the highest competition will be other then the top 16. I had to play a centurion star last month in a tournament with farsight, toolbox commander and tigurious (who got gate) and I managed to beat it by playing the mission and because my thunderfires and an unfortunate first turn perils bombed tiggy out of the unit leaving them stranded by their last overkill Oh man that felt so good ha ha. It will be hard for you lacking any barrage weapons but the mission is the most important factor.
Chancetragedy wrote: Wow that was brutal haha. Add insult to injury your D-Lords getting back up that last turn was hilarious, res orbs FTW!
Yeah, my D-lords have been rolling well with their Everliving rolls so far. I just hope the streak can continue, at least for 1 more game. When they keep getting up like that, Necrons can become super-tough to beat.
Mythra wrote: Did you ever roll 4s on the res orbs or were they all 5&6s? Did they ever make the difference?
I don't remember off the top of my head what I rolled, but one of my D-lords was only getting back up on a 5+ (no ResOrb). I would say that about half of my Everliving rolls are passed on a 4+ and the other half on a 5+ so yeah, I believe it does make a difference. That 30-pt wargear gives you a 50% chance to bring back a 190-pt unit. That's almost a 6x return on your investment!
herpguy wrote: Great game! It's clearly a pattern for people who bring these netlists to make easy mistakes like this.
That's a bit harsh, it suggests he doesn't know his army. Honestly he could have forgoten jy2's warlord trait (easy thing to do) or was unfamiliar with Necrons (I know it sound strange but it does happen) Mostly it seems like dice were insanely lopsided. The only time the Tau rolled well and jy2 rolled poorly seemed to be his kroot killing the wraiths which actually HURT him ha ha.
Did adepticon use that crappy BAO flier FAQ where they check LOS using 180 degree vertical or did your warriors kill his bikes? If so that ruling is just so game breaking, it makes it impossible to hide anything from fliers like that. It wouldn't matter in this game at all, just curious though.
Good game, but it is game 4 that I have been itching to read TBH. Game 4 is the gateway to your goal and definitely where the highest competition will be other then the top 16. I had to play a centurion star last month in a tournament with farsight, toolbox commander and tigurious (who got gate) and I managed to beat it by playing the mission and because my thunderfires and an unfortunate first turn perils bombed tiggy out of the unit leaving them stranded by their last overkill Oh man that felt so good ha ha. It will be hard for you lacking any barrage weapons but the mission is the most important factor.
Yeah, Adepticon ruled it the same way as the BAO with regards to flyers and their firing arcs. You may not know this, but the various TO's - Reece, Mike Brandt, the guys from Adepticon and others - actually worked together to try to create a uniform FAQ for tournament play. That's why you're going to see most of the larger tournaments have very similar FAQ rulings.
I don't recall exactly, but 1 unit (either my warriors or night scythe) wiped out the jetbikes and the other unit shot at the marker drones but then my opponent made all of his saves for them.
Yeah, the dice was a factor the whole game. I was mainly rolling above-average and IMO my opponent was rolling below-average. Otherwise, I think the game would have been much closer.
Game #4, which will be coming up later today, will actually be the very first time I have ever faced Centurions before. It's actually quite a brutal combo with 2 2+/3++ Chapter Masters, Tigurius, Coteaz and an Inquisitor to boot! Fortunately for me, Wraithwing is probably his worst matchup. Wraiths could care less about grav-weapons.
Yea, in my win, I used combat squads to my advantage as that unit, unlike farsight bomb can't target multiple things. I made him excessively overkill each target, of which there were too many for him to handle it turned out. I actually think tau do it much better, they lack the resilience of the SM but they can handle multiple threats much more easily which makes them less of a one trick pony.
I'm a Sharks fan too, that was a hell of a blowout!! Beat L.A.!
It didn't start off that way. Less than a minute in, LA scored its first goal. Then less than 5 min later, they score another one! I was like, oh sh*t, Sharks are down 0-2 and in major trouble. Who could have predicted that they would then go on to score 7 unanswered goals?!? Amazing!
Red Corsair wrote: Yea, in my win, I used combat squads to my advantage as that unit, unlike farsight bomb can't target multiple things. I made him excessively overkill each target, of which there were too many for him to handle it turned out. I actually think tau do it much better, they lack the resilience of the SM but they can handle multiple threats much more easily which makes them less of a one trick pony.
I believe Centurions have split-fire (either from the omniscope or the Inquisitor, can't remember which). They're not as efficient in killing multiple targets as Tau, but one thing they are great in is overkilling more expensive, non-MSU units. I believe Tim brought the Centurionstar in response to the meta - fight deathstar with deathstar. Yeah, they will definitely have trouble against MSU armies. However, Tim actually brought some great supporting units that actually complemented his deathstar well. In any case, I will go more into his army in Game #4.
Yea the omniscope lets the Sargent split fire if you buy it, but one centurians fire isn't all that worrisome tbh. They really only do one thing well, pound other deathstars. Although with tau as allies you can always split farsight and the toolbox commander late game to contest things which can be nice.
Many don't think about this but wraiths do have a 3+ armor save... so those grav shots will be wounding them on 3s with rerolls.. so they should have the vof to put the unit down if done right.
Question is, can you keep them away long enough then close quickly to take them out...or put them down with tesla dun dun dunnnnnnn!
Interesting game, I was waiting to see the Tau throw out some pain, but it didn't really eventuate. That farsight bomb neutered itself with those dice rolls which made the Necrons job easier.
I completely agree with Jy2s pre game thoughts about hammer and anvil versus Tau... it is painful to say the least!
I'm keen to see the next game, oddly enough I have never played against a space marine army. My playing group is Necron, Tau, and Dark Eldar.
Naw wrote: I wonder how competitive Necrons would be without that annoying resurrection, which btw Jy2 always seems to make.
I can't see that going away for Necrons, it's a part of who they are. Plus it's factored into their points costs.
However, I can almost guarantee Mindshackle scarabs will go away or be majorly toned down. If they simply made you not be able to attack at all if they go off they still would be amazing.
It actually might have been better to start with the FS bomb deployed on the table. I know tuts goes against conventional wisdom but I think it has it's merits in a game like this one.
Dozer Blades wrote: It actually might have been better to start with the FS bomb deployed on the table. I know tuts goes against conventional wisdom but I think it has it's merits in a game like this one.
It might have been better if he brought a better, more competitive list.
He made it that far undefeated and I respect that. I have found Necrons are a tough counter to Tau and jy2 knows how to take advantage of any weaknesses.
Dozer Blades wrote: It actually might have been better to start with the FS bomb deployed on the table. I know tuts goes against conventional wisdom but I think it has it's merits in a game like this one.
It might have been better if he brought a better, more competitive list.
I hate when the internet starts being list elitist. The guy was level with jy2 going into that game, and had his dice not fallen off a cliff and he chose to do one or two things different that whole games outcome would be way different. By all means though, keep preaching for less diversity
Sorry guys, didn't get a chance to work on Game #4 today. Will do so tomorrow.
In the meantime, you can enjoy this. Nothing quite like being live at the games come Playoff time.
San Jose Sharks, 2014 NHL Playoffs, Round #1 Game #2 - One of their 7 goals. Yes, that's 7 goals!
Naw wrote: I wonder how competitive Necrons would be without that annoying resurrection, which btw Jy2 always seems to make.
Reanimation Protocols is good, but it isn't game-breaking. Necrons have had it all along. In the previous edition, they actually came back on 4+ and even their wraiths got to come back.
However, necron troops in flyers is another thing. They are the real "secret sauce" to the Necron's success.
Dozer Blades wrote: I played Tim last year the first round at ATC... It was a brutal game. This should be a great report !!!
Yeah, he basically ran at the ATC what I ran here at Adepticon - Wraithwing Necrons - and cleaned house with them, going 6-0 and winning Best Necron Player.
If anyone can make any list work, Tim would be the one.
Roci wrote: Many don't think about this but wraiths do have a 3+ armor save... so those grav shots will be wounding them on 3s with rerolls.. so they should have the vof to put the unit down if done right.
Question is, can you keep them away long enough then close quickly to take them out...or put them down with tesla dun dun dunnnnnnn!
Yeah, VoF is what is dangerous to wraiths. The centurionstar can hurt them, but at least they will be getting 3++ saves whereas others would be getting 5+ cover or no saves (actually, in our game, Tim got Perfect Timing so not even cover saves).
Interesting game, I was waiting to see the Tau throw out some pain, but it didn't really eventuate. That farsight bomb neutered itself with those dice rolls which made the Necrons job easier.
I completely agree with Jy2s pre game thoughts about hammer and anvil versus Tau... it is painful to say the least!
I'm keen to see the next game, oddly enough I have never played against a space marine army. My playing group is Necron, Tau, and Dark Eldar.
I hate playing against Tau in H&A. They are soooo good and unless you are running one of those 2+ re-rollable armies, it is such an uphill battle for most.
Naw wrote: I wonder how competitive Necrons would be without that annoying resurrection, which btw Jy2 always seems to make.
I can't see that going away for Necrons, it's a part of who they are. Plus it's factored into their points costs.
However, I can almost guarantee Mindshackle scarabs will go away or be majorly toned down. If they simply made you not be able to attack at all if they go off they still would be amazing.
MSS needs a bump in price to about 25-30-pts. At the same time, it kinda boggles my mind how storm shield 3++'s cost only 15-20 points for Marine characters and yet necrons have to pay 45-pts for their 3++'s! And if bikes and jetbike characters can get Invuln's, why can't Destroyer Lords?!?
We'll see what happens when the next edition Necron codex comes out.
Dozer Blades wrote: It actually might have been better to start with the FS bomb deployed on the table. I know tuts goes against conventional wisdom but I think it has it's merits in a game like this one.
I'd have played it like he played it because:
1. The way to play against the wraiths is to force them to split up. Thus, I would always try to throw something into their backcourt to force them to backtrack.
2. Normal players would deploy their Annihilation Barges. Since he went 1st, he had no idea whether I was going to deploy them or keep them in Reserves. I'm not sure if he knows how unconventional I play sometimes, but perhaps he assumed I was going to deploy them. In any case, they would have been easy VP's for his F-bomb when they came in.
3. With 3 bodyguards equipped only with fusions, his range was too short for them to really be of use. That means only half of his F-bomb would most likely be firing had he deployed them, unless he wanted to risk getting into my assault range.
4. Against most armies and especially against my wraithwing, it is all about positioning. If he deployed his deathstar in his own deployment zone, it would just make it easier for me to execute my Positional Dominance strategy and box in his army.
Dozer Blades wrote: It actually might have been better to start with the FS bomb deployed on the table. I know tuts goes against conventional wisdom but I think it has it's merits in a game like this one.
It might have been better if he brought a better, more competitive list.
I actually applaud and respect people who bring different lists. He is taking a well-known deathstar and trying to make it his own. There's never anything wrong with that.
Dozer Blades wrote: He made it that far undefeated and I respect that. I have found Necrons are a tough counter to Tau and jy2 knows how to take advantage of any weaknesses.
Yeah, it's no easy feat getting to Game #3 undefeated. As for Necrons being a tough counter to Tau, that would depend on a number of factors - actual army composition, mission, deployment and terrain. Depending on those factors, it could just as well be Tau are a tough counter to Necrons as it is the other way around. But you are right about mistakes/weaknesses....I will make you pay for it in a tournament game.
Dozer Blades wrote: It actually might have been better to start with the FS bomb deployed on the table. I know tuts goes against conventional wisdom but I think it has it's merits in a game like this one.
It might have been better if he brought a better, more competitive list.
I hate when the internet starts being list elitist. The guy was level with jy2 going into that game, and had his dice not fallen off a cliff and he chose to do one or two things different that whole games outcome would be way different. By all means though, keep preaching for less diversity
I think we all start off a certain way in terms of gaming philosophy. But over time (and actual tournament experiences), our gaming philosophies will change. I think that happens to almost every gamer. Basically, you mature as a gamer and your viewpoints become less drastic and more thoughtful the longer you stay in this hobby.
DirtyDeeds wrote: As a fellow Tau player I felt bad for your opponent. :x Either way, here to hoping for a game #4 on Page 5!
In a ways, me too....though at the same time, I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't admit that I was glad that I was the one advancing instead of my opponent.
Sorry guys, didn't get a chance to work on Game #4 today. Will do so tomorrow.
In the meantime, you can enjoy this. Nothing quite like being live at the games come Playoff time.
San Jose Sharks, 2014 NHL Playoffs, Round #1 Game #2 - One of their 7 goals. Yes, that's 7 goals!
The SAP Center was crazy!! Sharks games are (most of the time) fun. Hopefully we can win the next two in LA. It looks like we're going to play the Ducks next round too, easy wins until western conference final.
I don't want a new Necron codex. Night Scythes will go up in price.
In fun games I love bringing back my crypteks w/ ghost arks.
MSS will get nerfed. They Nerf everything that people really hate or remove it altogether. The Doom, Eldar anti psyker runes, and Vendettas to name a few. MSS have to be way up on that list. I wonder what will happen to Necrons with way more expensive Scythes and nerfed MSS.
But the thing with that is that those are things that need to be balanced, and most people see it that way. 100 point fliers with TL s7 4 shot weapons that get statistically BETTER with snapshotting and caries up to 15 models that it can drop off safely before or after moving and they still fire normally as well as taking no damage from the flier exploding...
all for 100 points.
So I'm sorry, but I find it hard to feel bad for you if it goes up 30-50 points
And MSS is something universally recognized as being hilariously points-efficient.
Yes, GW pays about as much attention to the rules as a high school senior does to homework, but nonetheless, occasionally they fix things that were undercosted. Vendetta? The fact that it was never, ever, ever, EVER a choice to bring a vendetta vs a valkyrie means there is an issue in rules that needs to be fixed.
As for Doom...I recognize the frustration with him being removed altogether. I get that. I have seen some truly fantastic conversions for him that are now just really fancy Zoanthropes. But many(I won't say all) agree that guy was one of the most undercosted characters in 5th edition. He made up his points like a Bike Army vs grots.
I am not saying "Ah HA! GW does us a service continually that we should be grateful for and overlook all the abuses they put us through!" But I am saying, recognize when something you are playing is undercosted. I have, at one time or another, owned every army except for Black Templar and SoB.
I know when something I am playing is undercosted. I play DE currently, and fully expect to see Baron reduced in power. I hope he does. I play Daemons, and am prepared for if the codex becomes even more about killing my own models. I played CSM in 5th, and knew that Lash would get nerfed(Though did not think it would get removed...Drat!)
In short, understand your codex. This is not an insult, but an exhortation. It makes games more enjoyable when the person doesn't say
"Pfft, Jetlock Council? That's not broken. My Jetlock council is totally beatable!".
Instead the person could say something like
"Rough game. Here are some ways you can better play against it. It is a tough list, but not invincible. One day your codex will have its day in the sun dude, don't sweat about it!".
See the difference? Hope this helps, and I genuinely apologize for the long-winded post
I actually hope they make the next dark eldar codex more powerful... I don't think they have a chance without eldar as an ally. Really only BeaStar and Venomspam is competitive now. They should be able to stand on their own. It was very disappointing for me that Vect is T3 and not Eternal Warrior... You never see Drazhar in any competitive builds.
As far as Necrons go I think their power level continues to slowly ebb with each new codex that's released so it's not a big deal to me.
Dozer Blades wrote: I actually hope they make the next dark eldar codex more powerful... I don't think they have a chance without eldar as an ally. Really only BeaStar and Venomspam is competitive now. They should be able to stand on their own. It was very disappointing for me that Vect is T3 and not Eternal Warrior... You never see Drazhar in any competitive builds.
As far as Necrons go I think their power level continues to slowly ebb with each new codex that's released so it's not a big deal to me.
I know exactly how you feel. I have over 6k in DE and I would love to field them standalone, but I know that I need a Farseer, 2x5 DA in serpents, 8 warp spiders and 3 war walkers :(
Vect, there is no reason whatsoever why he should be t3 without EW. Drazhar is EW...But Vect, the oldest dude in the codex? Naw...
I am actually fine with Vect not having EW and T3. In the fluff he is very old because he is smart bot because he can tank shots. ALL DE have the ability to postpone death through soul eating. I do think he needs a point drop to address this however, since he is basically a 1w model who pops after his first failed shadow field. If he were closer to the 200 mark and his weapon became AP2 I'd be happy. They need to redo the dais from the bottom up though. Hopefully by next year we get a new book with army wide point decreases (scourge are 22pt come on).
Be fair though, Vect is Murder on wheels to anything with a 3+ save or less. Yeah he relies on the Shadowfield, but that's something all Archon's do, the thing is IF he loses it then as long as you are careful what shot's he takes he still has 4 Wounds with a 4+ save and Feel No Pain, all with the ability to gain wounds back. For an Eldar, that is pretty dam survivable against bolter fire.
I would agree, down to 210pts with an AP 2 weapon. Just remember he has 6 attacks BASE which usually hit on 3's re-rolling 1's and wound on 3's re-rolling ones, it is not unusual to cause 5/6 wounds on the norm. On the charge i have had Vect single handedly kill a Wraithknight. Don't under estimate his combat ability, for who i think is the oldest mortal in existance he packs a hell of a punch.
Roci wrote: A good friend plays DE, so I hope they get some love. At the same time, I sure hope it doesn't add to the Eldar/DE power builds if they do it.
Not sure how you get one without the other though.
I love my DE, and believe me they are still awesoem as a single detachment if you play them tight. I am looking forward to point drops and some of the silly artifacts getting tweaked into useful. Aside from that I am more frightened by the prsopect of losing things without models like hmmmm
Duke
Lady
Baron
Decapitator
technically Vect, but I know he will remain but that just shortens the list of who will get a model and survive the cut :/
I am sure they don't all make it, I like the Duke and Baron the most so I'll be happy if I keep them.
jy2 wrote: MSS needs a bump in price to about 25-30-pts. At the same time, it kinda boggles my mind how storm shield 3++'s cost only 15-20 points for Marine characters and yet necrons have to pay 45-pts for their 3++'s! And if bikes and jetbike characters can get Invuln's, why can't Destroyer Lords?!?
We'll see what happens when the next edition Necron codex comes out.
At the same time with the current codex, even at 45 points for the 3++, I would pay it gladly for my Destroyer Lords. They would go from ridiculous to amazing 1 man wrecking crews. Plus they would be even better tanks for the wraith stars.
I am not saying they aren't under cost but if you fix all those Nercon issues they won't be competitive. I want a competitive army. The Eldar aren't getting any fixes anytime soon and are one of the most competitive armies out there. I want to see more competitive armies not less.
I mean really 60" ignores cover gun on a transport is just as silly as the Necron Night Scythe.
The problem is they release an under balanced codex like the Dark Angels then release an over powered like the Eldar and then release a middle of road codex like the Tyranids.
They have no concept of balance between one army vs the next. I hadn't lost a game with the last Tyranid codex and now I play them mostly for fun. Losing drop pods really hurt. I don't what they were thinking. They don't and that is the real problem.
Seems to be a lot of talk about Necrons and DE in their current/future states, so before I get into Game #4, I will share my thoughts on them.
Dark Eldar:
They are a glass cannon army and always will be. They will never be completely balanced. Will do good against many armies but will have difficulties against certain ones. To me, honestly, they are fine as they are. To play DE is to play a certain playstyle that is uniquely theirs - fast, shooty, fragile, lots of units. Now Eldar do make them much more powerful, but there's nothing we can really do about that until 7th Ed. come out.
Every army will have excellent units and units that we will hardly ever see in competitive play. With the exception of Eldar and Tau, honestly, most codices will be lucky if the players use even 25% of the units in their dex. Someone mentioned that Dhrazar is never used in competitive play. Well, neither will you see the Swarmlord nowadays or a bunch of other characters in competitive play. But if you really like him, then to hell with what everyone else does or say....just run him!
Yeah, there will be changes when the new DE comes out. But whatever those changes are, I have a feeling that DE will still play like they did for aeons....they will still be good.
Necrons:
Ok, necrons is more in my area of expertise. This is how I feel some of the current Necron units should be:
Minshackle Scarabs - 25-pts
Phase Shifter (for Lords and Overlords) - 30-pts
Phase Shifter (for Destroyer Lords) - 45-pts
Night Scythe - 120-pts, can only disembark/re-embark if move maximum 24".
Annihilation Barges - 110-pts
Canoptek Spiders - 60-pts
Also, they need some type of anti-psyker wargear.
As long as they have flyer transports in their next edition, Necrons will continue to be good. What Necrons lack to be the top dog are force-multiplication combos. They are probably the most efficient army currently out there in terms of a brute-force army (efficiency vs cost). They do have some force-multiplication wargear/characters, but not to the crazy extent of Tau and Eldar. Tau and Eldar are brutally good with their force-multiplication capabilites - lots of psychic powers, Toolbox commanders, markerlights, etc. Not only that, but Tau and Eldar can take some crazy battle brother allies to geometrically increase their force-multiplication powers as well. Necrons, they're stuck with Allies of Convenience at best only.
The next edition of Necrons will probably still be good, but the current trend of the competitive meta is gamebreaking combos/force-multipliers. Anything else will be just a step behind.
Dont want to hijack the thread anymore then it already has been... but to add my $.01. Like JY2 said sadly not every unit is always good, its a fact of creme rising to the top and people using the most obviously good things. But to counter that you can usually find a way to use most of the things in any books. Drahzar may not be any good now... but he was a staple of my competitive webway dark eldar in 5th ed, his rules interactions worked in 5th and dont have as much pull anymore in 6th. Counter that with Vect who was much worse in 5th and is now super good, and I havent played a game without him competitively in well over a year, while I havent used Baron in that same period of time because Vect is better for how I want to play.
I actually am more afraid of a DE update then excited. I think they stand to lose more then they gain. The only issues they have currently are price costs do to internal balance isues and codex creep. There is no reason a scourge should cost 6 pts more then a swooping hawk just like their is no reason a hellion should only be 3 points less then warp spiders or 1pt less then windriders lol... I mean come on.
And shame on whoever it was who insulted the Lady, she is great in my grotesque bomb as she protects them from enfeeble and force weapons.
I think Dark Eldar could get a buff that makes them internally more viable and not require eldar allies as much if they take away Baron. Baron is the reason why Jetseer Council and the Beaststars are so effective, yet the Dark Eldar don't need him to play well. Many pure Dark Eldar players take Vect or a custom Archon anyways.
I agree with pretty much every price change you're recommending Jy2 except for MSS. I still think 25 pts is too cheap to make them be able to kill any beatstick in the game. If they put somethig like that in the CSM codex it would be over 50 points. I think it's not a price issue but more of a changing how it works. If it was just changed to simply not allowing you to attack if you failed it would still be amazing but not over the top IMO. I used to play Necrons a lot and I always thought MSS was the dumbest thing and always felt extremely dirty when my opponent just kept killing themself and being punished for bringing a killy character (which nowadays in 6th don't need anything else to hamper bringing them).
Automatically Appended Next Post: As a whole though the necron codex needs to be rebalanced because even though it's not that old it's falling into the same mono-build patterns that Orks are in and Tyranids were very recently. All the aforementioned units are overcosted in a vacuum but the necron codex is barely top tier now. The problem is if you're not taking nightscythes, annihilation barges, and wraiths you're screwed (unless you're very adventurous and take spyders).
Game #4 vs Centurionstar Space Marines/Inquisition
I am playing against Tim Gorham and his tournament-winning Centurionstar Space Marines. With just a couple of slight modifications, this was essentially the list he used to win the Torrent of Fire Tournament of Champions. For those not familiar, the ToF tournament was a tournament by invitation only of some of the best players here in the US. Almost everyone there has won a GT or has consistently done well. It was basically a who's-who of competitive and successful tournament US players, and for Tim to take the top spot was an honour indeed. Tim is also a very successful Necron Wraithwing player as well. He won a GT in the Midwest (can't remember its name) with his crons. He also took best Necron Player at the ATC 2013 last year (the year my team won it).
Going into this, I can't help but notice the similarities between my current situation here with that at the Las Vegas Open GT just a few months prior. Both games are the last game before heading into Day #2 and the Championships. Both games are my last obstacles in making it to the Sweet 16 (or Elite 8 at the LVO). Going into both games, I was undefeated. In each game, I will be playing against an accomplished player and GT winner - Eric Hoerger at the LVO and Tim here. Both players are running Marine armies with their main offense being Grav-weaponry. Before my game with Eric, I got wasted by one of those humongous mixed drinks that you can only find at Vegas. Before my game with Tim, I got sloshed by half-priced beers and happy hour at the restaurant/bar in our hotel (it was dinner time). Finally, with both games, it would be the first time in each tournament where my Necrons would be going 1st. Now I'm hoping that's where the similarities end, because I lost to Eric at the LVO....
1850 NECRONS
Destroyer Lord - 2+, Mindshackle Scarabs, ResOrb
Destroyer Lord - 2+, Mindshackle Scarabs
5x Immortals - Gauss Blasters, Night Scythe
5x Immortals - Gauss Blasters, Night Scythe
5x Warriors - Night Scythe
5x Warriors - Night Scythe
Adepticon uses only Primary and Secondary objectives. The Primary Objectives always consists of 2 missions. It's actually quite simple. If you get more Primary Objectives than your opponent, you earn a Crushing Victory. Otherwise, if the Primary is tied, then you go on to the Secondaries. The Secondaries consist of First Blood, Linebreaker and Slay the Warlord. If you tie on the Primary and win via Secondaries, then it is a Minor Victory.
Primary Objectives:
1. Victory Points
2. Big Guns - Heavy Supports are scoring. However, if you kill a Heavy, then it counts as 2 VP's for Primary Objective #1 instead. 5 Objectives total.
Secondary Objectives: First Blood, Linebreaker and Slay the Warlord
Listwise, I actually think that Wraithwing is a bad matchup for Centurionstar:
1. Yeah, he has the volume-of-fire (VoF) to actually hurt my wraiths. However, whereas most units won't be getting any saves except Invuln's (not even cover as my opponent got Perfect Timing), the majority of my guys on the ground will be getting 3++.
2. I've got the speed and the resiliency to catch him in combat.
3. I've got 2 Mindshackles for his Chapter Masters. My flyers should be able to get the alpha-strike on his stalkers due to the lack of Interceptor.
4. His thunderfire really won't have any good targets to shoot at.
5. Most importantly, I've got a huge mobility advantage over my opponent. That is the real weakness of his list compared to mine.
Now for the intangibles, which are actually in favor of my opponent.
1. Psychic powers. That is the primary weakness of my wraiths. Once again, my opponent hit the mother-lode of psychic powers. No, he didn't go for Gate. Instead, he went for the sure powers from Divination. Misfortune, Forewarning, Perfect Timing, Prescience....another jackpot by my opponents. Misfortune in particular could play a huge role in this game.
2. He is going 2nd.
3. This is Big Guns. He's got 4 heavy supports, of which 2 will be hard to get. I can take out the 2 stalkers, but the thunderfire and his Centurionstar will be tough to get or even shift off of an objective.
4. Experience is in Tim's favor. I have never played against the Centurionstar before. Tim is an expert in Wraithwing Necrons. He definitely knows my army much better than I know his.
I definitely feel that my army can take on his. I think that my army can even potentially dominate his just based on the lists. Don't take that to mean that I am under-estimating him or his army. You just can't under-estimate a player of his caliber. However, we will see what role the intangibles play in this battle. Given that the intangibles favor my opponent, I am actually thinking that this will be a much closer battle than I would normally expect. But in the end, the Marines are just another obstacle that my crons will trample over in the quest for the Adepticon Sweet 16.
Wraiths advance. I move my barges very cautiously, forgoing shooting for 1 turn in order to stay 31" away from his Centurionstar. That is mainly because I didn't want his deathstar to shoot at and immobilize them.
In retrospect, there was no need to be so cautious. I should have just lit up his deathstar.
Wraiths run to get even closer.
Marines 1
Spoiler:
Psykers cast their powers and Misfortune my left wraithstar unit (my Warlord's unit). Then centurionstar then advances. My opponent was debating whether to make a tactical retreat or to play aggressively. IMO, he did the right thing to move forwards. It was what I would have done as well.
Shooting takes out my wraithstar for First Blood. He also takes out 1 wraith from my other unit.
VP's - Marines: 2, Necrons: 0
Fortunately for me, my Warlord gets back up.
VP's - Marines: 1, Necrons: 0
But wow! Misfortune really hurt me that turn.
Necrons 2
Spoiler:
2 of my flyers come in.
I close in for the kill.
Barges move in. They were just biding their time for when the night scythes come in.
Unfortunately, my shooting is dismal (couldn't roll those 6's) and my opponent's saves are good. I maybe cause 1 or 2W but that is about it.
Wraiths then assault.
I mindshackle both Chapter Masters and declare a challenge. I cause 2W to his Shield Eternal Chapter Master and I think I kill 1 centurion. In return, he kills 2 of my wraiths due to Misfortune and force weapons.
Marines 2
Spoiler:
The legion of the Damned comes in and blows up one of my AB's with their meltas (Relentless and ignore cover). He gets 2VP's due to killing a Heavy Support.
VP's - Marines: 3, Necrons: 0
I can't believe what is going on!!! Both Chapter Masters pass their Mindshackle tests. He Misfortunes my wraiths once again. I believe I cause a couple of wounds. However, Tim wipes out 1 unit of wraiths and down both Destroyer Lords!!! #$%&@*# Misfortune!!!
VP's - Marines: 6, Necrons: 0
Fortunately for me, both D-lords get back up.
VP's - Marines: 4, Necrons: 0
Necrons 3
Spoiler:
Only 1 night scythe comes in this turn. My other 2 night scythes go after his stalker. Apparently my flyers survived his stalkers' shooting last turn.
Die, Imperial scum! 1 Marine Heavy Support down.
VP's - Marines: 4, Necrons: 2
The other one survive with just 1 HP left.
The battle rages on. This time, my opponent fails both Mindshackle tests once again. I thought I had killed him, but apparently, Space Marine Chapter Masters now have 4W instead of the 3 they used to have. I lose another 2 wraiths to Misfortune and force weapons once again.
Marines 3
Spoiler:
Needing 6's to hit, the legion gets a lucky hit with their multi-melta and blows up 1 of my night scythes.
VP's - Marines: 5, Necrons: 2
Stalker shoots down another 1 night scythe. I must say, my opponent is rolling well so far.
VP's - Marines: 6, Necrons: 2
In combat, the centurionstar finishes off the wraiths and downs my normal D-lord. My Warlord then fails morale and falls back. My D-lord would finally stay down.
VP's - Marines: 8, Necrons: 2
Damn, things are going rough for my crons so far. The centurionstar is doing surprisingly well in combat thanks to Prescience, Forewarning, force weapons and most of all, Misfortune. I did make a mistake however. For some reason, I thought Tigurius' weapon was Fleshbane and AP2 (because he was wounding my wraiths on 2+'s). What it was was a force maul (S6 AP4 only). So this turn, I thought Tigurius was wounding me on 2+ and with no saves on my part (when he should have been wounding me on 4+ and I still get my 2+ saves). However, it really wasn't my opponent's fault. I did not verify with him with regards to Tigurius' weapon and he probably thought I knew what I was doing. Also, it probably wouldn't have mattered because Coteaz had yet to attack with his S6 AP2 force hammer (though both Chapter Masters couldn't fight due to Mindshackles).
In any case, my crons are hurting right now.
Necrons 4
Spoiler:
Warriors walk in from Ongoing Reserves.
As do my immortals. The last scythe comes in.
The other scythe drops off its immortals before flying off the table.
Rapid-fire gauss blasters from my immortals kill only 1 legion of the damned (LotD).
I kill all but 1 marine with my other immortals and a night scythe.
Barge goes after and finishes off his stalker.
VP's - Marines: 8, Necrons: 4
Marines 4
Spoiler:
The LotD goes after my immortals.
Both henchmen units finally come in.
I think my opponent must have gotten Scrier's Gaze as a psychic power. Most of the stuff he wanted to come in late came in late and his stalkers came in early.
The centurionstar gets ready to re-charge my Warlord, but not before they immobilize one of my annihilation barge with a split-fire shot.
BTW, his Shield Eternal jump master splits off from the unit and goes after my immortals.
Honestly, I don't remember how he shot down my night scythe.
VP's - Marines: 9, Necrons: 4
Thunderfire takes out 3 warriors.
LotD takes out 2 immortals.
Assault.
I get knocked down, but I get up again cuz you're never gonna keep me down.
The LotD assaults my immortals and they stay locked in combat.
Necrons 5
Spoiler:
I go after another Heavy Support - his TFC.
Warriors come in from the reserves. They stay as close to the combat as possible to protect them from the TFC blasts.
In the only bad rolling of the game for my opponent, Tim roll's 3 1's in a row on his saves and loses both his TFC and the techmarine. I get another Heavy Support.
VP's - Marines: 9, Necrons: 6
However, my AB shoots at his scouts in cover (they are obscured by the ruins in the photo above) but he passes all of their saves.
Finally I re-charge his centurionstar, hoping to lock them down in combat, all the while contesting the middle objective.
In retrospect, I should have just let him assault/shoot my Warlord instead.
Warriors go after the objective. The LotD is actually outside of contesting range so I actually have this objective.
I mindshackle his Chapter Master, then issue a challenge, of which my opponent declines. I then deny Coteaz his attacks. However, Tigurius kills my Warlord and he fails to get back up!
VP's - Marines: 10, Necrons: 6
Warriors charge into combat as well. My troops are actually in claiming range while his LotD are out of contesting range.
Another LotD member goes down. They would remain stuck in combat for the rest of the game.
Marines 5
Spoiler:
Centurionstar stays on the center objective. They shoot down my unit of 2 warriors on an objective.
VP's - Marines: 11, Necrons: 6
Scouts have another objective after his jump Chapter Master finishes off my other unit of Immortals in assault.
VP's - Marines: 12, Necrons: 6
I only have 1 objective.
Tim also gets First Blood (wraiths), Linebreaker (LotD) and my Warlord for full points.
So this is a first. First time where my Lords got up, what 3 or 4 times, and I still lost the game. Well, actually, this may have been the 2nd time. The 1st time I believe was actually against Skyblight nids. In any case, where was I off? What went wrong in this game?
1. Tim was rolling well. He was making his saves and what little skyfire he had was getting the job done. I should have been able to take out his Centurionstar, especially when most of my Mindshackles were going through, but his Chapter Masters just wouldn't fail their last saves. He only had 1 string of bad rolling and that was when he lost his thunderfire cannon and techmarine.
2. I did roll well with my Everliving, get-back-up rolls, but for the most part, my dice were somewhat subpar, both in my offense and with my saves. I couldn't finish off his straggling units for those easy VP's due in part to my poor offense and good saves by my opponent.
3. Misfortune's a b*tch. Still can't believe that Tigurius b*tch-slapped my wraiths with Misfortune and force weapons. Surprisingly (at least to me), he was actually the main workhorse in the unit. While his Chapter Masters were busy pounding on themselves, Tigurius was busy killing wraiths and even my D-lords. Go figure.
4. Tim played great. He played like a true champion. Usually when I play in what I felt was a bad matchup for me, I would normally play the denial game with as many units in reserves as possible. That was exactly what Tim did. He knew how devastating my shooting could be and thus, gave me no targets other than his deathstar.
5. I made 2 mistakes. Now these weren't major mistakes, but they could have made a difference. The first was to avoid his deathstar with my barges on Turn 1. That extra turn of shooting could have made a difference. With 3 barges, even snapfiring, if I could have caused even 1W to one of his Chapter Masters, I could have killed one of them. That could have been a difference-maker in the main combat between his Centurionstar and my 2 wraithstars.
6. The 2nd mistake was to assault his deathstar on Turn 5 with my D-lord. I should have just contested the middle objective and force my opponent to focus on him instead. Now, I wouldn't have won with this tactic, but I could have potentially came out with a minor defeat instead of a crushing defeat. With a minor defeat, I still had a sliver of a chance to make it into the Sweet 16 (I believe there were 1 or 2 players with 1 minor defeat who made it).
Oh well, it was a great game. Win or lose, I'm glad I got the opportunity to play against a great player like Tim and one of the new super-powered deathstars like the Centurionstar. Tomorrow will be just relaxation and a lot of no-pressure, fun games.
Still to come....
I get in a pick-up game against Justin Cook's GT-winning O'vesastar.
And....
Team Roommates vs Team Zero Comp.
My roommate Stephen "Chancetragedy" and I, Jim "Jy2" pit our armies - Wraithwing Necrons and White Scars - against Team Zero Comp's "World's Greatest 40K Player" Frankie's GT-winning Venom-spam Dark Eldar/Eldar and "InControl" Geoff's FMC-spam Tyranids.
I think Tim has got this. A super experienced player who has won with Wraithwing before. So not only does he know his own list very well, but he also knows Jim's list. Add the fact that he has final turn for objectives and I think it will be a decently solid win for SM.
If Jim moves too aggressively first turn he risks an entire wraithstar getting pulped. Also, the 2 orbital bombardments can further punish him. I think it'll depend on the fliers tho, if Jim takes out the Stalkers in time than he can fly around and pew pew stuff. If he gets poor rolls and they come on peicemeal and don't kill the Stalkers...sucks to suck
I am assuming he got gate, get has three chances with rerolls one at a time so it actually gets easier each time he misses gate as the list gets smaller.
Since this is 6th edition I have to put my money on the side going second. SM win this as they get last say on objectives.
Listwise, I actually think that Wraithwing is a bad matchup for Centurionstar:
1. Yeah, he has the volume-of-fire (VoF) to actually hurt my wraiths. However, whereas most units won't be getting any saves except Invuln's (not even cover as my opponent got Perfect Timing), the majority of my guys on the ground will be getting 3++.
2. I've got the speed and the resiliency to catch him in combat.
3. I've got 2 Mindshackles for his Chapter Masters. My flyers should be able to get the alpha-strike on his stalkers due to the lack of Interceptor.
4. His thunderfire really won't have any good targets to shoot at.
5. Most importantly, I've got a huge mobility advantage over my opponent. That is the real weakness of his list compared to mine.
Now for the intangibles, which are actually in favor of my opponent.
1. Psychic powers. That is the primary weakness of my wraiths. Once again, my opponent hit the mother-lode of psychic powers. No, he didn't go for Gate. Instead, he went for the sure powers from Divination. Misfortune, Forewarning, Perfect Timing, Prescience....another jackpot by my opponents. Misfortune in particular could play a huge role in this game.
2. He is going 2nd.
3. This is Big Guns. He's got 4 heavy supports, of which 2 will be hard to get. I can take out the 2 stalkers, but the thunderfire and his Centurionstar will be tough to get or even shift off of an objective.
4. Experience is in Tim's favor. I have never played against the Centurionstar before. Tim is an expert in Wraithwing Necrons. He definitely knows my army much better than I know his.
I definitely feel that my army can take on his. I think that my army can even potentially dominate his just based on the lists. Don't take that to mean that I am under-estimating him or his army. You just can't under-estimate a player of his caliber. However, we will see what role the intangibles play in this battle. Given that the intangibles favor my opponent, I am actually thinking that this will be a much closer battle than I would normally expect. But in the end, the Marines are just another obstacle that my crons will trample over in the quest for the Adepticon Sweet 16.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: Only when the dice gods conspire against him, I can't recall a battle report where he has been actively out played.
Neither can I. I haven't been out-played in a long, long time. I have been out-rolled, however.
Mythra wrote: I am not saying they aren't under cost but if you fix all those Nercon issues they won't be competitive. I want a competitive army. The Eldar aren't getting any fixes anytime soon and are one of the most competitive armies out there. I want to see more competitive armies not less.
I mean really 60" ignores cover gun on a transport is just as silly as the Necron Night Scythe.
The problem is they release an under balanced codex like the Dark Angels then release an over powered like the Eldar and then release a middle of road codex like the Tyranids.
They have no concept of balance between one army vs the next. I hadn't lost a game with the last Tyranid codex and now I play them mostly for fun. Losing drop pods really hurt. I don't what they were thinking. They don't and that is the real problem.
Making those changes will actually put Necrons more in line with the non-Eldar/Tau armies. Eldar and Tau are just ridiculously over-the-top good currently. I would say they need a good nerfing as well if you're trying to balance them out with all the other armies.
It seems like when GW release their next generation of codices, usually 1 or 2 will be super-good. Another 1 or 2 will be really good, and the rest will be alright. Don't expect GW to consistently come out with all the new codices in the really good to the super good range. Those dexes are more anomalies than the norm. My thoughts are that you curb the extremes (the Taus and the Eldar) rather than to make all the codices just like them.
Red Corsair wrote: I actually am more afraid of a DE update then excited. I think they stand to lose more then they gain. The only issues they have currently are price costs do to internal balance isues and codex creep. There is no reason a scourge should cost 6 pts more then a swooping hawk just like their is no reason a hellion should only be 3 points less then warp spiders or 1pt less then windriders lol... I mean come on.
And shame on whoever it was who insulted the Lady, she is great in my grotesque bomb as she protects them from enfeeble and force weapons.
Well, one trend that we are seeing is that many things do get cheaper and usually only the really undercosted things (tervigons, vendettas, chimeras, daemon princes, etc.) get a price hike. I think you will see units like the scourge and hellions adjusted accordingly in the next edition.
Red Corsair wrote: I am assuming he is reserving both his stalkers so he can get the drop on your fliers? Otherwise I don't see how they will survive until his turn 2.
Yes, that is correct. He actually reserves everything but his deathstar and the TFC. He too likes to play the denial game.
Yea well thats the best play, it makes you waste shots on that deathstar then he rolls in and nabs your fliers I'd guess.
With TL twin orbitals I am assuming he grabs FB off a barge. edit: ignores cover too lol
From their the games his to lose. That's my biggest problem with 6th. Some of these deathstars are so consistent that predetermined plays become a thing, which ironically reminds me more of chess.
We should probably stop distracting jim from the batrep. Poor guy is writing this mammoth post with several batreps and we sidetrack him on points-costs for DElol
jathomas2013 wrote: We should probably stop distracting jim from the batrep. Poor guy is writing this mammoth post with several batreps and we sidetrack him on points-costs for DElol
Thank you! This next game is going to be very interesting. For some reason I have a bad feeling its going to be the game that ends Jim's tournament hopes. Not doubting his skill at all, just a weird feeling I have.
jathomas2013 wrote: We should probably stop distracting jim from the batrep. Poor guy is writing this mammoth post with several batreps and we sidetrack him on points-costs for DElol
Thank you! This next game is going to be very interesting. For some reason I have a bad feeling its going to be the game that ends Jim's tournament hopes. Not doubting his skill at all, just a weird feeling I have.
Well his tone changed in this Batrep, you may be right.
jathomas2013 wrote: We should probably stop distracting jim from the batrep. Poor guy is writing this mammoth post with several batreps and we sidetrack him on points-costs for DElol
Thank you! This next game is going to be very interesting. For some reason I have a bad feeling its going to be the game that ends Jim's tournament hopes. Not doubting his skill at all, just a weird feeling I have.
Well his tone changed in this Batrep, you may be right.
Hmm. I didn't notice it the first time, but now I see what you're talking about.
jathomas2013 wrote: We should probably stop distracting jim from the batrep. Poor guy is writing this mammoth post with several batreps and we sidetrack him on points-costs for DElol
Thank you! This next game is going to be very interesting. For some reason I have a bad feeling its going to be the game that ends Jim's tournament hopes. Not doubting his skill at all, just a weird feeling I have.
Or you can look at the top 16 lists that have been everywhere for the past month.
Ok, necrons is more in my area of expertise. This is how I feel some of the current Necron units should be:
Minshackle Scarabs - 25-pts
Really? A piece of wargear that dominates all challenges and MCs at least 50% of the time (and frequently more, with lower Ld targets), with no downside, and allows the nercon warlord to engage and defeat enemies that cost substantially more than it should only cost 25 points? Personally, I think this is the worst piece of equipment in the game, in terms design, at the moment, and should be removed (at best) or made to cost substantially more than 25 points (at worst). Any item that makes winning/losing an engagement come down to a flip of a coin is poor game design.
Also, they need some type of anti-psyker wargear.
Them, and Tau and Orks and Dark Eldar, and half of the game...
Ok, necrons is more in my area of expertise. This is how I feel some of the current Necron units should be:
Minshackle Scarabs - 25-pts
Really? A piece of wargear that dominates all challenges and MCs at least 50% of the time (and frequently more, with lower Ld targets), with no downside, and allows the nercon warlord to engage and defeat enemies that cost substantially more than it should only cost 25 points? Personally, I think this is the worst piece of equipment in the game, in terms design, at the moment, and should be removed (at best) or made to cost substantially more than 25 points (at worst). Any item that makes winning/losing an engagement come down to a flip of a coin is poor game design.
I understand that opinions will differ on this. I look at it from the perspective that while it is good against buffed-up characters, it is a waste on models like ork boys, gants, infantry guardsmen, fire warriors, zombies/cultists and even normal marines.
In any case, I have a feeling that it will get scrapped altogether in the next edition. GW has a tendency to do that with anything that people feel are too good, like the Lash Prince, the old Runes of Warding, S10 railguns, auto-Fortune, Doom of Ma'lantai, etc.
Also, they need some type of anti-psyker wargear.
Them, and Tau and Orks and Dark Eldar, and half of the game...
I believe orks will probably have something like it next edition. DE and Tau have it (Lady Malys, the Talisman of Moloch or whatever-it's-called). Moreover, they can both ally in farseers, which is actually quite common in many Tau and DE builds.
I understand that opinions will differ on this. I look at it from the perspective that while it is good against buffed-up characters, it is a waste on models like ork boys, gants, infantry guardsmen, fire warriors, zombies/cultists and even normal marines.
All examples of models that you don't need it to beat. A destroyer lord is not even remotely threatened by any of the models you mention here. Combat effectiveness of predominantly combat-oriented models should be based on their cost. You pay 150 points for a destroyer lord, you should expect to beat a 30 point guard officer. But you should also expect to lose to a 250 point bloodthirster. Instead MSS give you a better than 50% chance of beating it. That's just wrong.
In any case, I have a feeling that it will get scrapped altogether in the next edition. GW has a tendency to do that with anything that people feel are too good, like the Lash Prince, the old Runes of Warding, S10 railguns, auto-Fortune, Doom of Ma'lantai, etc.
We can only hope.
On anti-psyker stuff wrote: I believe orks will probably have something like it next edition. DE and Tau have it (Lady Malys, the Talisman of Moloch or whatever-it's-called). Moreover, they can both ally in farseers, which is actually quite common in many Tau and DE builds.
Tau don't have it, Farsight has it, and gives up other things to get it. Lady Malys? I can count on no hands how often I've seen her in a game... And both of these suffer from the same problem as psychic hoods do; they only affect psychic stuff targeted at your unit, not the real psychic threats, which are mostly buffs. At least the rumours for the new 7th seem to suggest they'll be adding a 'psychic phase', which means, hopefully, all races will get some innate anti-psychic ability, much like the chance to dispel anything in fantasy. Having "Deny the Witch" and tweaks to it as the only real anti-psych in the game is horrible design when the most powerful spells are buffs that can't be denied.
Necrons do have anti psycher, it's called the gloom prism
I think it's safe to say MSS will be a VERY expensive relic if it does manage to stick around, though I doubt it does.
Back on topic, Tigurius has the ability to re-roll reserves, so he doesn't even need scriers gaze. Tiggy is one of the best characters in print right now.
I think it's funny that he didn't use his orbital bombardments at all. He easily could have split the unit last turn and nabbed the remaining barges. He obviously didn't need to though.
Disappointed for you here Jy2, that centurion star looked terrifying. Despite the loss, I've loved reading this tournament series. If it's any consolation, I've learnt so much from your reports over the years I've even started winning with my Nids! Look forward to seeing more of your reports and hopefully the next tournament will see you in the finals.
All examples of models that you don't need it to beat. A destroyer lord is not even remotely threatened by any of the models you mention here. Combat effectiveness of predominantly combat-oriented models should be based on their cost. You pay 150 points for a destroyer lord, you should expect to beat a 30 point guard officer. But you should also expect to lose to a 250 point bloodthirster. Instead MSS give you a better than 50% chance of beating it. That's just wrong.
This is exactly how I feel about MSS. When I played Necrons I never felt good when my destroyer lord completely punked out a 200+ point MC with utter ease. For lack of a better description, it just felt wrong.
Wow tough game Jy2. Centurions are just extremely durable. Plus he had 4 ICs piled in there. I know I'm being captain hindsight but I didn't get why you didn't charge forward and shoot them with your barges, because it probably would have been a plus to you if they shot a barge instead of the wraiths. However you mentioned that too so whatevs. Awesome tournament man and thanks again for the best batreps on here.
Hey JY, in your game against Tim, did the Jump Pack Chapter Master never take a wound from his own Thunderhammer from the Mindshackle Scarabs? If he did why didn't he die from Instant Death?
MikhailLenin wrote: Hey JY, in your game against Tim, did the Jump Pack Chapter Master never take a wound from his own Thunderhammer from the Mindshackle Scarabs? If he did why didn't he die from Instant Death?
Shield eternal.
He had it set up so it was literally impossible for his CM's to ID themselves.
MikhailLenin wrote: Hey JY, in your game against Tim, did the Jump Pack Chapter Master never take a wound from his own Thunderhammer from the Mindshackle Scarabs? If he did why didn't he die from Instant Death?
Relic gives eternal warrior. Never leave home without it!!!
If the current trend of only two sources sticks on the tourney scene.. lists like this become a lot less of an issue. You can still do tig and a cent star but you have to pick and choose what you want to go with them. Can't get all the candy... just a couple of pieces. I'm sure some other list will evolve to take its place... but that is the nature of the game.
He had it set up so it was literally impossible for his CM's to ID themselves.
Roci wrote:
Relic gives eternal warrior. Never leave home without it!!!
If the current trend of only two sources sticks on the tourney scene.. lists like this become a lot less of an issue. You can still do tig and a cent star but you have to pick and choose what you want to go with them. Can't get all the candy... just a couple of pieces. I'm sure some other list will evolve to take its place... but that is the nature of the game.
For my first time at Adepticon as well I think it was an absolute blast. When you make it out to the EC or maybe the ATC we will have to get in our game
Well Jim you had three solid wins in the beginning and then terrible luck on the last game. Your opponent rolled really good psychic powers which contributed to the majority of your defeat. Seems like you keep falling one game shy every tourney of reaching the final 16. I think it is time you switched back to your Nids.
Considering how significant psychic abilities wound up being in the matchup, do you think running Spyder-Star as opposed to dual Wraith-star could have been a better meta call?
Tactical error in holding the barges back on the first round. Your Wraiths are target priority over the barges for him so there was no need to stick them back at 31". You may have forced an extra wound or two there.
Tim's army is one of those that can catch you out. Hindsight is always 20-20. That said I would have either ignore the deathstar or throw everything plus the kitchen sink at it.
Every time I see the first image of this report I can't help but think of that seen at the end of those super hero movies where Nick Fury says "I am forming a team.....The avenger initiaive!" I keep playing it over and over except with Corteaz instead of Nick Fury
Then I imagine how this report played out as being the plot for Expendables 3 and I chuckle some more.
Deathstar 40k is annoying and silly but I have to be honest and say that particular one has made me smirk a bit... Perhaps not in the best way, but still pretty funny...
Why would you charge in w/ Legion of the Damned? They had Meltas. Is that just to get the charge bonus and to avoid the next turn shooting? Was he going to get his LotD charged anyway?
Tough break jy2. Well done for getting so far with an older army. Whats next are you sticking with the crons or back to nids or daemons for rournaments?
Wow wasn't expecting such a big loss. It seems as though your opponents army was better than yours in all respects - they outshot you, and were better in CC. If the D-Lords hadn't kept getting back up it could even have been worse.
Thanks for sharing these reports, really enjoyed them.
I think most people are forgetting how much misfortune swayed the game in his opponents favor. Forget prescience, forget forewarning, forget pretty much every psychic power he got except misfortune.
On a unit with 3++ which should SAVE wounds 2/3 of the time, now you're FAILING almost 3/4 of them.
This is what really screwed JY2. Yeah, maybe he sent the barges in closer right away, but I don't think that it would have outweighed the advantage Tim got with Misfortune.
Anyways, hard fought loss Jim. I still look forward to seeing the rest of the tournament and you dropping Crons for the Nids soon ;-)
roxor08 wrote: I think most people are forgetting how much misfortune swayed the game in his opponents favor. Forget prescience, forget forewarning, forget pretty much every psychic power he got except misfortune.
On a unit with 3++ which should SAVE wounds 2/3 of the time, now you're FAILING almost 3/4 of them.
This is what really screwed JY2. Yeah, maybe he sent the barges in closer right away, but I don't think that it would have outweighed the advantage Tim got with Misfortune.
Anyways, hard fought loss Jim. I still look forward to seeing the rest of the tournament and you dropping Crons for the Nids soon ;-)
Why drop Crons for Nids? Crons has the tools to put up a better fight here. Spyders with a gloom prison can give a 4+ save to all psychic and certainly slow the bleed out from misfortune.
Also, Death and Despairtek (via Nemesor Zandrekh Express Delivery Night Scythe) can be brutal against Death stars, bringing couple hundred ultra killy points against in some cases 900 or more points in these Deathstars.
JY2 brought a very solid all-around list and a list he knew how to pilot well and did indeed pilot very well but the meta had shifted so heavily to Psychic and Deathstar that the Double Wraithwing list that JY2 fielded needed some significant tweaks to bring the list up to date and compensate for the meta. That's my take on the match. This is also just echoing what JY2 said on page one of this thread, where he said that the West Coast players were bringing older competitive builds against the newer competitive builds brought by the East Coast players.
shogun wrote: I'am trying to figure out why the centurion-star got a chapter master with jumppack instead of another bike.
Isn't it also better to replace the hurricane bolters with missle launchers and field them as allies with imperial fist chapter tactics(tank hunter)?
Great report..as always!
Pretty simple acctually.
WIth the bike master, you have a jink save and enemy can focus fire to ignore your tankmaster. You give one the jetpack, put him up front to tank, and can LOS to the second if you get overwhelmed with firepower. Majority toughness in the unit is still 5, and since the jetpack one has the shield eternal you dont have to worry about him being instagibbed.
As for the missles, its widely accepted that hurricane bolters are fine since you need the extra anti-infantry for hordes and your saving 40 points for the 4 cents. Also, you take the Iron hands CT for the fnp, since tank hunters does nothing for grav cannons and would be a waste.
shogun wrote: I'am trying to figure out why the centurion-star got a chapter master with jumppack instead of another bike.
Isn't it also better to replace the hurricane bolters with missle launchers and field them as allies with imperial fist chapter tactics(tank hunter)?
Great report..as always!
Pretty simple acctually.
WIth the bike master, you have a jink save and enemy can focus fire to ignore your tankmaster. You give one the jetpack, put him up front to tank, and can LOS to the second if you get overwhelmed with firepower. Majority toughness in the unit is still 5, and since the jetpack one has the shield eternal you dont have to worry about him being instagibbed.
As for the missles, its widely accepted that hurricane bolters are fine since you need the extra anti-infantry for hordes and your saving 40 points for the 4 cents. Also, you take the Iron hands CT for the fnp, since tank hunters does nothing for grav cannons and would be a waste.
But with two bikes you can still put the one with "shield eternal" up front and LOS to the second. The both have the 5+ jinx save so you can still not focus fire the other tankmaster if theirs another with the same coversave up front.
The Iron hands characters are great with "it will not die" and also the feel no pain but I thought its possible to add the "imperial fists" as allies, but then I forgot that you got an ultra marine Tigurius.
roxor08 wrote: I think most people are forgetting how much misfortune swayed the game in his opponents favor. Forget prescience, forget forewarning, forget pretty much every psychic power he got except misfortune.
On a unit with 3++ which should SAVE wounds 2/3 of the time, now you're FAILING almost 3/4 of them.
This is what really screwed JY2. Yeah, maybe he sent the barges in closer right away, but I don't think that it would have outweighed the advantage Tim got with Misfortune.
Anyways, hard fought loss Jim. I still look forward to seeing the rest of the tournament and you dropping Crons for the Nids soon ;-)
No ones ignoring it, you really might look over his opponents list and realize how easily he can get whatever power he feels he needs from that the divination table.
roxor08 wrote: I think most people are forgetting how much misfortune swayed the game in his opponents favor. Forget prescience, forget forewarning, forget pretty much every psychic power he got except misfortune.
On a unit with 3++ which should SAVE wounds 2/3 of the time, now you're FAILING almost 3/4 of them.
This is what really screwed JY2. Yeah, maybe he sent the barges in closer right away, but I don't think that it would have outweighed the advantage Tim got with Misfortune.
Anyways, hard fought loss Jim. I still look forward to seeing the rest of the tournament and you dropping Crons for the Nids soon ;-)
No ones ignoring it, you really might look over his opponents list and realize how easily he can get whatever power he feels he needs from that the divination table.
^^This. It's not all that unlikely for Tiggy to get exactly what he wants. That's why ya bring him.
Hey Jy2, love reading your reports, gives me great insight into playing. (you might have seen a few of my posts in your other reports).
I think that marine list is very interesting and I want you opinion: do you think the list a GOOD list or more of a meta games list? Do you think it was mostly bad luck for you that you lost?
I am thinking of building a list similar to this and want to know it it would be a good call. Also what kinda armies does this army struggle against?
Ecstasy in Service wrote: Hey Jy2, love reading your reports, gives me great insight into playing. (you might have seen a few of my posts in your other reports).
I think that marine list is very interesting and I want you opinion: do you think the list a GOOD list or more of a meta games list? Do you think it was mostly bad luck for you that you lost?
I am thinking of building a list similar to this and want to know it it would be a good call. Also what kinda armies does this army struggle against?
(sorry for all the questions, thanks!)
I'm not Jim, but I'll give my input!
This list is good regardless I feel. It has the tools to handle just about anything from the meta, and I think the only concerns might be something like Screamerstar? Not sure, but it would be able to shoot the crap outta stuff any pretty much never lose anything. Besides that it'll handle AM, FMC Circus, Nids, Seer Council, BeastStar, O'vesa Star, etc just fine.
Of course, one thing to keep in mind: Tim won with a good list, yes, but he is also an incredibly good player. He won the Torrent of Fire Invitational, where 32 top players in the country competed in a tournament. So don't expect to be able to take his list and then "I KILL EVERYTHING". It takes skill too
roxor08 wrote: I think most people are forgetting how much misfortune swayed the game in his opponents favor. Forget prescience, forget forewarning, forget pretty much every psychic power he got except misfortune.
On a unit with 3++ which should SAVE wounds 2/3 of the time, now you're FAILING almost 3/4 of them.
This is what really screwed JY2. Yeah, maybe he sent the barges in closer right away, but I don't think that it would have outweighed the advantage Tim got with Misfortune.
Anyways, hard fought loss Jim. I still look forward to seeing the rest of the tournament and you dropping Crons for the Nids soon ;-)
Why drop Crons for Nids? Crons has the tools to put up a better fight here. Spyders with a gloom prison can give a 4+ save to all psychic and certainly slow the bleed out from misfortune.
Also, Death and Despairtek (via Nemesor Zandrekh Express Delivery Night Scythe) can be brutal against Death stars, bringing couple hundred ultra killy points against in some cases 900 or more points in these Deathstars.
JY2 brought a very solid all-around list and a list he knew how to pilot well and did indeed pilot very well but the meta had shifted so heavily to Psychic and Deathstar that the Double Wraithwing list that JY2 fielded needed some significant tweaks to bring the list up to date and compensate for the meta. That's my take on the match. This is also just echoing what JY2 said on page one of this thread, where he said that the West Coast players were bringing older competitive builds against the newer competitive builds brought by the East Coast players.
Sorry, I'm not saying that in THIS particular tournament he should have taken Nids, I would just rather see him play Nids. I play Nids, I think he plays Nids extremely well and I learn a lot from him.
Other than that, I agree with the rest of your post.
Red Corsair wrote:
roxor08 wrote: I think most people are forgetting how much misfortune swayed the game in his opponents favor. Forget prescience, forget forewarning, forget pretty much every psychic power he got except misfortune.
On a unit with 3++ which should SAVE wounds 2/3 of the time, now you're FAILING almost 3/4 of them.
This is what really screwed JY2. Yeah, maybe he sent the barges in closer right away, but I don't think that it would have outweighed the advantage Tim got with Misfortune.
Anyways, hard fought loss Jim. I still look forward to seeing the rest of the tournament and you dropping Crons for the Nids soon ;-)
No ones ignoring it, you really might look over his opponents list and realize how easily he can get whatever power he feels he needs from that the divination table.
I think you're probably right, I don't know much of the ridiculously over powered combinations since I strictly play Nids. I probably should familiarize myself more. I have a hesitation with that though because I'm sure someday when GW takes their head out of the @$$ the divination table will either disappear or get extremely nerfed....
I am actually hopeful that they alter the tables heavily with the reboot. There is no need for every army in the game to have access to blanket re-rolls. It really is making the game stupid. TL weapons cost a lot for a reason, sadly they seem way over priced now only because entire units get everything TL, oh and it works in HtH.... We shall see though.
Ok, after a brief hiatus, I'm happy to say that.....
....I'M BACK!
First off, let me wrap up Game #4 with my Post-game thoughts.
Game #4 Post-game Thoughts:
Spoiler:
So this is a first. First time where my Lords got up, what 3 or 4 times, and I still lost the game. Well, actually, this may have been the 2nd time. The 1st time I believe was actually against Skyblight nids. In any case, where was I off? What went wrong in this game?
1. Tim was rolling well. He was making his saves and what little skyfire he had was getting the job done. I should have been able to take out his Centurionstar, especially when most of my Mindshackles were going through, but his Chapter Masters just wouldn't fail their last saves. He only had 1 string of bad rolling and that was when he lost his thunderfire cannon and techmarine.
2. I did roll well with my Everliving, get-back-up rolls, but for the most part, my dice were somewhat subpar, both in my offense and with my saves. I couldn't finish off his straggling units for those easy VP's due in part to my poor offense and good saves by my opponent.
3. Misfortune's a b*tch. Still can't believe that Tigurius b*tch-slapped my wraiths with Misfortune and force weapons. Surprisingly (at least to me), he was actually the main workhorse in the unit. While his Chapter Masters were busy pounding on themselves, Tigurius was busy killing wraiths and even my D-lords. Go figure.
4. Tim played great. He played like a true champion. Usually when I play in what I felt was a bad matchup for me, I would normally play the denial game with as many units in reserves as possible. That was exactly what Tim did. He knew how devastating my shooting could be and thus, gave me no targets other than his deathstar.
5. I made 2 mistakes. Now these weren't major mistakes, but they could have made a difference. The first was to avoid his deathstar with my barges on Turn 1. That extra turn of shooting could have made a difference. With 3 barges, even snapfiring, if I could have caused even 1W to one of his Chapter Masters, I could have killed one of them. That could have been a difference-maker in the main combat between his Centurionstar and my 2 wraithstars.
6. The 2nd mistake was to assault his deathstar on Turn 5 with my D-lord. I should have just contested the middle objective and force my opponent to focus on him instead. Now, I wouldn't have won with this tactic, but I could have potentially came out with a minor defeat instead of a crushing defeat. With a minor defeat, I still had a sliver of a chance to make it into the Sweet 16 (I believe there were 1 or 2 players with 1 minor defeat who made it).
Oh well, it was a great game. Win or lose, I'm glad I got the opportunity to play against a great player like Tim and one of the new super-powered deathstars like the Centurionstar. Tomorrow will be just relaxation and a lot of no-pressure, fun games.
Still to come....
I get in a pick-up game against Justin Cook's GT-winning O'vesastar.
And....
Team Roommates vs Team Zero Comp.
My roommate Stephen "Chancetragedy" and I, Jim "Jy2" pit our armies - Wraithwing Necrons and White Scars - against Team Zero Comp's "World's Greatest 40K Player" Frankie's GT-winning Venom-spam Dark Eldar/Eldar and "InControl" Geoff's FMC-spam Tyranids.
I understand that opinions will differ on this. I look at it from the perspective that while it is good against buffed-up characters, it is a waste on models like ork boys, gants, infantry guardsmen, fire warriors, zombies/cultists and even normal marines.
All examples of models that you don't need it to beat. A destroyer lord is not even remotely threatened by any of the models you mention here. Combat effectiveness of predominantly combat-oriented models should be based on their cost. You pay 150 points for a destroyer lord, you should expect to beat a 30 point guard officer. But you should also expect to lose to a 250 point bloodthirster. Instead MSS give you a better than 50% chance of beating it. That's just wrong.
Nonetheless, there is actually more of a chance for the D-lords to encounter the "normal" guys over the rather bloated ones. You may want to compare apples to apples, but the truth of the matter is that in most games, the apples are going to encounter the oranges probably more than 50% of the time.
Also, without Mindshackles, necrons will get destroyed by assault armies. MSS is to give them even a modicum of a chance against those armies.
Red Corsair wrote: Necrons do have anti psycher, it's called the gloom prism
I think it's safe to say MSS will be a VERY expensive relic if it does manage to stick around, though I doubt it does.
Back on topic, Tigurius has the ability to re-roll reserves, so he doesn't even need scriers gaze. Tiggy is one of the best characters in print right now.
I think it's funny that he didn't use his orbital bombardments at all. He easily could have split the unit last turn and nabbed the remaining barges. He obviously didn't need to though.
Oops. Forgot about the gloom prism. Well, I take it back about our lack of psychic defense.
I didn't mention it, but Tim did use his orbitals on T1 to help kill off my wraith unit for First Blood.
No worries. Despite the shellacking, I was still glad to have played against my opponent.
Dozer Blades wrote: Oh well - you lost to one of the top players in the country so no shame.
I like to think of it more like....my opponent managed to beat one of the top players in the country. Haha....
Shandara wrote: So lucky with the res rolls, it's like you get 3 warlords for the price of one!
Yeah, those ResOrbs are a great investment. I always take 1 for my Warlord and I'd take 2 if I could afford to.
Doombiscuit wrote: Disappointed for you here Jy2, that centurion star looked terrifying. Despite the loss, I've loved reading this tournament series. If it's any consolation, I've learnt so much from your reports over the years I've even started winning with my Nids! Look forward to seeing more of your reports and hopefully the next tournament will see you in the finals.
Thanks. I'm not disappointed at all (well, maybe just a little). My goal at this point wasn't really to win it all. It was to:
All examples of models that you don't need it to beat. A destroyer lord is not even remotely threatened by any of the models you mention here. Combat effectiveness of predominantly combat-oriented models should be based on their cost. You pay 150 points for a destroyer lord, you should expect to beat a 30 point guard officer. But you should also expect to lose to a 250 point bloodthirster. Instead MSS give you a better than 50% chance of beating it. That's just wrong.
This is exactly how I feel about MSS. When I played Necrons I never felt good when my destroyer lord completely punked out a 200+ point MC with utter ease. For lack of a better description, it just felt wrong.
Wow tough game Jy2. Centurions are just extremely durable. Plus he had 4 ICs piled in there. I know I'm being captain hindsight but I didn't get why you didn't charge forward and shoot them with your barges, because it probably would have been a plus to you if they shot a barge instead of the wraiths. However you mentioned that too so whatevs. Awesome tournament man and thanks again for the best batreps on here.
Thanks!
I'm sure GW will hit MSS with the nerfbat when the new Necron dex comes out.
It was a mistake not to shoot with my barges but I did it mainly because:
1. Unfamiliarity with the Centurionstar. Thus, I played a little more conservatively.
2. Barges are triply important in this matchup. First off, killing 1 takes out a scoring unit. Second and thirdly, they are worth 2x VP's.
3. Easy First Blood. It is much easier for him to kill a barge than it is to kill my wraiths (which BTW I rolled poorly on their saves even without Misfortune to lose them all).
MikhailLenin wrote: Hey JY, in your game against Tim, did the Jump Pack Chapter Master never take a wound from his own Thunderhammer from the Mindshackle Scarabs? If he did why didn't he die from Instant Death?
What the others said. The Jump CM is that one with the Shield Eternal, which gives him Eternal Warrior.
If the current trend of only two sources sticks on the tourney scene.. lists like this become a lot less of an issue. You can still do tig and a cent star but you have to pick and choose what you want to go with them. Can't get all the candy... just a couple of pieces. I'm sure some other list will evolve to take its place... but that is the nature of the game.
Yeah, that is the purpose of the 2-sources limitations - to make sure some armies/units don't become too crazy.
For my first time at Adepticon as well I think it was an absolute blast. When you make it out to the EC or maybe the ATC we will have to get in our game
Glad to have met you bud.
Hey Rob! Congrats on your 2nd place finish! Awesome job. I must say, you really made me eat my words with regards to East Coast/West Coast players. Don't worry though, I will make it to Day #2 the next time.
Nonetheless, there is actually more of a chance for the D-lords to encounter the "normal" guys over the rather bloated ones. You may want to compare apples to apples, but the truth of the matter is that in most games, the apples are going to encounter the oranges probably more than 50% of the time.
Also, without Mindshackles, necrons will get destroyed by assault armies. MSS is to give them even a modicum of a chance against those armies.
Guard seem to manage. Tau seem to manage. Destroyer Lords + Wraiths are still a strong option, even without MSS. MSS don't give Necrons a modicum of a chance against assault armies, it gives Necrons a coin-flip to beat any assault model in the game, regardless of how many points that model cost. That's poor game design. Again, I don't believe that the 150 point CC model should have a 55% chance of beating the 250 point CC model. With things like Bloodthirsters getting LD 9, that's exactly what MSS do. As an army with plenty of valid shooty options (some of the best mid-range shooting in the game), their modicum of a chance should be based on weakening those assault units ahead of the assault, not in some poorly designed wargear that just wins.
As a side note, everliving rolls mean that destroyer lords pose a serious threat to all the oranges in the game (the oranges are the generic guys, right, not the tooled up bosses? Sorry, not really following the analogy) because unlike any other model in the game, they can't shoot them down and cease to worry about them. Pour enough fire into anything else in the game and it will drop and not assault you. Pour enough fire into a destroyer lord and it still has a 50% chance to get right back up and eat all your oranges. You're right, MSS aren't about the oranges, because MSS aren't needed against the oranges.
y0disisray wrote: Well Jim you had three solid wins in the beginning and then terrible luck on the last game. Your opponent rolled really good psychic powers which contributed to the majority of your defeat. Seems like you keep falling one game shy every tourney of reaching the final 16. I think it is time you switched back to your Nids.
Lol. Yeah, next time it will be bugs, though the reasons for switching isn't because they are a better or worse army. It's mainly for variety in playstyle and to give each of my army a chance in competitive play.
Red Corsair wrote: Back on topic, Tigurius has the ability to re-roll reserves, so he doesn't even need scriers gaze.
Only from his own detachment, though.
Must've been coincidence for both of his henchmen units to come in on T4 then.
col_impact wrote: Considering how significant psychic abilities wound up being in the matchup, do you think running Spyder-Star as opposed to dual Wraith-star could have been a better meta call?
It really depends on what you go up against. Wraithwing will do better against some armies and the spyderstar will do better against others. Neither is superior to the other.
In this matchup, while the spyderstar gives some resistance to Misfortune, it would have been shot up by the Centurionstar. It's high Toughness means nothing to grav-weaponry and the lack of Invuln's means it doesn't have a prayer of a chance against the shooting of the Centurionstar (which also ignored cover due to Perfect Timing).
Fragile wrote: Tactical error in holding the barges back on the first round. Your Wraiths are target priority over the barges for him so there was no need to stick them back at 31". You may have forced an extra wound or two there.
Yeah, should have just risked him shooting at my barges.
Dozer Blades wrote: Tim's army is one of those that can catch you out. Hindsight is always 20-20. That said I would have either ignore the deathstar or throw everything plus the kitchen sink at it.
Well, he did do a great job of denying me everything else and I did throw everything at it.
But now that I am no longer a Centurion-virgin, I will have a better idea next time on how to deal with them.
herpguy wrote: Yeah centstar is always a Catch-22. You can't ignore it because it can do so much, but you will waste so much time trying to put it down.
It shares the same weaknesses as Draigowing - a slow deathstar without much maneuverability and that can target only a limited number of units. However, it was actually his supporting units who were beating my supporting units. I think that is the actual difference-maker there.
In a deathstar army, the one who kills the the most supporting units will have the advantage. ALWAYS go after the supporting units. Tim understood this, which was why he reserved almost all of his support units.
Red Corsair wrote: Every time I see the first image of this report I can't help but think of that seen at the end of those super hero movies where Nick Fury says "I am forming a team.....The avenger initiaive!" I keep playing it over and over except with Corteaz instead of Nick Fury
Then I imagine how this report played out as being the plot for Expendables 3 and I chuckle some more.
Deathstar 40k is annoying and silly but I have to be honest and say that particular one has made me smirk a bit... Perhaps not in the best way, but still pretty funny...
Fething cyber eagles
Haha....nice imagery.
Yeah, I think we can call it Superfriends 40K.
Mythra wrote: Why would you charge in w/ Legion of the Damned? They had Meltas. Is that just to get the charge bonus and to avoid the next turn shooting? Was he going to get his LotD charged anyway?
To hopefully sweep my troops? They're getting 3 attacks on the charge. They could potentially finish off my immortals. Moreover, even if he doesn't finish them off, he was hoping to lock my immortals in place so that they couldn't get to the objectives.
It was also to avoid my shooting next turn. 5-man marine squads go down fairly easily to enough rapid-fire.
No, I wasn't planning on charging his LotD. I was planning to rapid-fire on them some more.
djn wrote: Tough break jy2. Well done for getting so far with an older army. Whats next are you sticking with the crons or back to nids or daemons for rournaments?
Great reports as always, thanks for sharing them.
Thanks.
Crons will be retired from tournament play for a while. I will run bugs in the next big GT and probably daemons after that.
tyrannosaurus wrote: Wow wasn't expecting such a big loss. It seems as though your opponents army was better than yours in all respects - they outshot you, and were better in CC. If the D-Lords hadn't kept getting back up it could even have been worse.
Thanks for sharing these reports, really enjoyed them.
Yeah, my opponent out-rolled me in this game.
I still think, however, that my crons match up better against his army than most.
roxor08 wrote: I think most people are forgetting how much misfortune swayed the game in his opponents favor. Forget prescience, forget forewarning, forget pretty much every psychic power he got except misfortune.
On a unit with 3++ which should SAVE wounds 2/3 of the time, now you're FAILING almost 3/4 of them.
This is what really screwed JY2. Yeah, maybe he sent the barges in closer right away, but I don't think that it would have outweighed the advantage Tim got with Misfortune.
Anyways, hard fought loss Jim. I still look forward to seeing the rest of the tournament and you dropping Crons for the Nids soon ;-)
Misfortune was huge. Misfortune + my inability to make saves (I normally don't do that bad, even against Misfortune) = a big whooping!
Actually, statistically, I should be only failing 5/9 of the time. Well, I beat the statistical norm and was actually failing about 3/4 of the time.
shogun wrote: I'am trying to figure out why the centurion-star got a chapter master with jumppack instead of another bike.
Isn't it also better to replace the hurricane bolters with missle launchers and field them as allies with imperial fist chapter tactics(tank hunter)?
Great report..as always!
Thanks!
So he could kill/contest guys/objectives on top of ruins. Bikes can't go up. That's what the jump pack CM is for.
Hurricane bolters are necessary against daemons and other horde armies with poor saves. Otherwise, his grav-guns will be wounding the likes of zombies, orks, termagants and daemons on 6's.
roxor08 wrote: I think most people are forgetting how much misfortune swayed the game in his opponents favor. Forget prescience, forget forewarning, forget pretty much every psychic power he got except misfortune.
On a unit with 3++ which should SAVE wounds 2/3 of the time, now you're FAILING almost 3/4 of them.
This is what really screwed JY2. Yeah, maybe he sent the barges in closer right away, but I don't think that it would have outweighed the advantage Tim got with Misfortune.
Anyways, hard fought loss Jim. I still look forward to seeing the rest of the tournament and you dropping Crons for the Nids soon ;-)
Why drop Crons for Nids? Crons has the tools to put up a better fight here. Spyders with a gloom prison can give a 4+ save to all psychic and certainly slow the bleed out from misfortune.
Also, Death and Despairtek (via Nemesor Zandrekh Express Delivery Night Scythe) can be brutal against Death stars, bringing couple hundred ultra killy points against in some cases 900 or more points in these Deathstars.
JY2 brought a very solid all-around list and a list he knew how to pilot well and did indeed pilot very well but the meta had shifted so heavily to Psychic and Deathstar that the Double Wraithwing list that JY2 fielded needed some significant tweaks to bring the list up to date and compensate for the meta. That's my take on the match. This is also just echoing what JY2 said on page one of this thread, where he said that the West Coast players were bringing older competitive builds against the newer competitive builds brought by the East Coast players.
Actually, IMO the spyderstar would have done worse here. While they have defense against Misfortune, they can't do much against grav-weaponry which also ignored cover. He would have blown away the spyderstar in no time.
When I run bugs, it isn't really whether it would have done better or worse here (it would have most likely done worse). It would mainly be because I wanted a change in play-styles. Had my bugs actually been completed, it would have been almost a coin-flip with regards to which army I would have taken here to Adepticon.
shogun wrote: I'am trying to figure out why the centurion-star got a chapter master with jumppack instead of another bike.
Isn't it also better to replace the hurricane bolters with missle launchers and field them as allies with imperial fist chapter tactics(tank hunter)?
Great report..as always!
Pretty simple acctually.
WIth the bike master, you have a jink save and enemy can focus fire to ignore your tankmaster. You give one the jetpack, put him up front to tank, and can LOS to the second if you get overwhelmed with firepower. Majority toughness in the unit is still 5, and since the jetpack one has the shield eternal you dont have to worry about him being instagibbed.
As for the missles, its widely accepted that hurricane bolters are fine since you need the extra anti-infantry for hordes and your saving 40 points for the 4 cents. Also, you take the Iron hands CT for the fnp, since tank hunters does nothing for grav cannons and would be a waste.
And that too!
Ricedaddy wrote: Tough luck on that last game, Jy2. Still, a great showing as always (and great bat reps!)
roxor08 wrote: I think most people are forgetting how much misfortune swayed the game in his opponents favor. Forget prescience, forget forewarning, forget pretty much every psychic power he got except misfortune.
On a unit with 3++ which should SAVE wounds 2/3 of the time, now you're FAILING almost 3/4 of them.
This is what really screwed JY2. Yeah, maybe he sent the barges in closer right away, but I don't think that it would have outweighed the advantage Tim got with Misfortune.
Anyways, hard fought loss Jim. I still look forward to seeing the rest of the tournament and you dropping Crons for the Nids soon ;-)
No ones ignoring it, you really might look over his opponents list and realize how easily he can get whatever power he feels he needs from that the divination table.
Even with Tiggy's re-rolls, there's still a chance of not getting what he needs. Without doing the math, my estimate is that he probably has about a 3/4 chance of getting what he wants.
Ecstasy in Service wrote: Hey Jy2, love reading your reports, gives me great insight into playing. (you might have seen a few of my posts in your other reports).
I think that marine list is very interesting and I want you opinion: do you think the list a GOOD list or more of a meta games list? Do you think it was mostly bad luck for you that you lost?
I am thinking of building a list similar to this and want to know it it would be a good call. Also what kinda armies does this army struggle against?
(sorry for all the questions, thanks!)
It's a good list but you have to understand it's limitations. It's very similar in playstyle to Draigowing in that you have 1 huge but slow deathstar that can target limited units. In our game, several factors went my opponent's way which actually made it into a favorable matchup for him. Firstly, it was Big Guns, which gave him 4 extra scoring units, including an ultra-durable deathstar. Secondly, good psychic powers against an army with no psychic defense. Thirdly, being able to go 2nd against an army which really doesn't have great alpha-strike capabilities (my army is more of a beta-strike army, or an army that hits hard starting on Turn 2 instead of on Turn 1).
It isn't an easy army to play, but it is an army that will give many other armies some problems. Basically, it is a finesse list and actually requires a lot of tactical play to make it work well. As a deathstar army, it's got poor mobility and limited resources. You really need to understand your limitations to get the most out of your army, but once you do, it's a proven army that has the potential to win tournaments.
Ecstasy in Service wrote: Hey Jy2, love reading your reports, gives me great insight into playing. (you might have seen a few of my posts in your other reports).
I think that marine list is very interesting and I want you opinion: do you think the list a GOOD list or more of a meta games list? Do you think it was mostly bad luck for you that you lost?
I am thinking of building a list similar to this and want to know it it would be a good call. Also what kinda armies does this army struggle against?
(sorry for all the questions, thanks!)
I'm not Jim, but I'll give my input!
This list is good regardless I feel. It has the tools to handle just about anything from the meta, and I think the only concerns might be something like Screamerstar? Not sure, but it would be able to shoot the crap outta stuff any pretty much never lose anything. Besides that it'll handle AM, FMC Circus, Nids, Seer Council, BeastStar, O'vesa Star, etc just fine.
Of course, one thing to keep in mind: Tim won with a good list, yes, but he is also an incredibly good player. He won the Torrent of Fire Invitational, where 32 top players in the country competed in a tournament. So don't expect to be able to take his list and then "I KILL EVERYTHING". It takes skill too
But yes, I think the list is very solid
Agreed. It takes skill to play this list well. It's not as straight-forwards as the seer council, screamerstar, beaststar or some of the other deathstar armies. It's more of a thinking man's deathstar. You really have to plan your next moves in advance due to your lack of mobility.
Sorry, I'm not saying that in THIS particular tournament he should have taken Nids, I would just rather see him play Nids. I play Nids, I think he plays Nids extremely well and I learn a lot from him.
Don't worry. Nids will be coming soon to a GT near you. Or in batreps for the time being....
Red Corsair wrote: I am actually hopeful that they alter the tables heavily with the reboot. There is no need for every army in the game to have access to blanket re-rolls. It really is making the game stupid. TL weapons cost a lot for a reason, sadly they seem way over priced now only because entire units get everything TL, oh and it works in HtH.... We shall see though.
Re-rolls are the real new "king of the metas", whether it is twin-linked, Prescience, Prefered Enemy, Hatred or re-roll saves. IMO, if you don't have re-rolls in spades, then you aren't top-tier. Unfortunately, they are here to stay and I don't see next edition taking them away. That's because it is still so under the radar. Most people think deathstars are OP, but I wonder if they truly considered why deathstars are truly OP.
Nonetheless, there is actually more of a chance for the D-lords to encounter the "normal" guys over the rather bloated ones. You may want to compare apples to apples, but the truth of the matter is that in most games, the apples are going to encounter the oranges probably more than 50% of the time.
Also, without Mindshackles, necrons will get destroyed by assault armies. MSS is to give them even a modicum of a chance against those armies.
Guard seem to manage. Tau seem to manage. Destroyer Lords + Wraiths are still a strong option, even without MSS. MSS don't give Necrons a modicum of a chance against assault armies, it gives Necrons a coin-flip to beat any assault model in the game, regardless of how many points that model cost. That's poor game design. Again, I don't believe that the 150 point CC model should have a 55% chance of beating the 250 point CC model. With things like Bloodthirsters getting LD 9, that's exactly what MSS do. As an army with plenty of valid shooty options (some of the best mid-range shooting in the game), their modicum of a chance should be based on weakening those assault units ahead of the assault, not in some poorly designed wargear that just wins.
As a side note, everliving rolls mean that destroyer lords pose a serious threat to all the oranges in the game (the oranges are the generic guys, right, not the tooled up bosses? Sorry, not really following the analogy) because unlike any other model in the game, they can't shoot them down and cease to worry about them. Pour enough fire into anything else in the game and it will drop and not assault you. Pour enough fire into a destroyer lord and it still has a 50% chance to get right back up and eat all your oranges. You're right, MSS aren't about the oranges, because MSS aren't needed against the oranges.
Guards manage by have a lot of sacrificial units. Tau manage by shooting and some ridiculous Overwatch. Necrons, unless they opt to go the flyer route, don't have a lot of anti-assault options, especially against the faster armies. In any case, my point isn't that Necrons can potentially beat a 300-pt Daemon Princes in combat. Rather, it is due to the opportunity cost that more than half of the time, Mindshackles are actually rather useless because many of the units that they do face are weaker infantry units in which MSS really doesn't make a difference.
But I understand that our viewpoints differ in this regard. That's fine. I'm pretty sure MSS will get nerfed heavily in the next edition anyways. My viewpoint is actually more conservative, but I'm afraid it's going to get hit even harder than that. Think Runes of Warding....
Thanks for the reply Jy2, I did think it was a slow army, I might fool around with bikes, drop pods or something to give the army a bit of reach.
I am still interested in trying the army as I do like a little thinking in my 40k, after playing gun line for a while I like some interesting strategy, which is the reason I play the game anyway
roxor08 wrote: I think most people are forgetting how much misfortune swayed the game in his opponents favor. Forget prescience, forget forewarning, forget pretty much every psychic power he got except misfortune.
On a unit with 3++ which should SAVE wounds 2/3 of the time, now you're FAILING almost 3/4 of them.
This is what really screwed JY2. Yeah, maybe he sent the barges in closer right away, but I don't think that it would have outweighed the advantage Tim got with Misfortune.
Anyways, hard fought loss Jim. I still look forward to seeing the rest of the tournament and you dropping Crons for the Nids soon ;-)
Why drop Crons for Nids? Crons has the tools to put up a better fight here. Spyders with a gloom prison can give a 4+ save to all psychic and certainly slow the bleed out from misfortune.
Also, Death and Despairtek (via Nemesor Zandrekh Express Delivery Night Scythe) can be brutal against Death stars, bringing couple hundred ultra killy points against in some cases 900 or more points in these Deathstars.
JY2 brought a very solid all-around list and a list he knew how to pilot well and did indeed pilot very well but the meta had shifted so heavily to Psychic and Deathstar that the Double Wraithwing list that JY2 fielded needed some significant tweaks to bring the list up to date and compensate for the meta. That's my take on the match. This is also just echoing what JY2 said on page one of this thread, where he said that the West Coast players were bringing older competitive builds against the newer competitive builds brought by the East Coast players.
Actually, IMO the spyderstar would have done worse here. While they have defense against Misfortune, they can't do much against grav-weaponry which also ignored cover. He would have blown away the spyderstar in no time.
When I run bugs, it isn't really whether it would have done better or worse here (it would have most likely done worse). It would mainly be because I wanted a change in play-styles. Had my bugs actually been completed, it would have been almost a coin-flip with regards to which army I would have taken here to Adepticon.
I guess you are thinking Spyder Star would try to tackle Centstars or other Deathstars head on. I don't think that's necessarily the approach. The gutshot to pull off is to deploy a Deathmark(x5) and Despairtek(x2) killteam via Nightscythe 1" away from the Centstar, to punish the opponent from putting so many points into a single unit. Running Obyron means you can take a guerilla rather than head-on approach and keep your own Deathstar safe via teleport, even teleporting directly out of combat. Running Nemesor means you can get that Nightscythe anytime enemy reserves come on. What stops a Death and Despairtek team from wiping a good chunk of the Centstar and otherwise being a solid tool in such a Deathstar heavy field?
jy2 wrote: Ok, after a brief hiatus, I'm happy to say that.....
....I'M BACK!
First off, let me wrap up Game #4 with my Post-game thoughts.
Game #4 Post-game Thoughts:
Spoiler:
Still to come....
I get in a pick-up game against Justin Cook's GT-winning O'vesastar.
And....
Team Roommates vs Team Zero Comp.
My roommate Stephen "Chancetragedy" and I, Jim "Jy2" pit our armies - Wraithwing Necrons and White Scars - against Team Zero Comp's "World's Greatest 40K Player" Frankie's GT-winning Venom-spam Dark Eldar/Eldar and "InControl" Geoff's FMC-spam Tyranids.
Great to have you back! I think I am going to sh*t myself this looks so good!! I really cant even describe how much I have wanted you to take on Justin. Playing the Frontline guys will be great too!
As you can see, jim has home turf advantage (necron table). Will it save him from one of the cheesiest armies ever ?
Tims gravstar list is really strong, and misfortune is pretty much as good of a malediction as fortune is a blessing. I like his switch over to a jump pack on the e-shield master as it circumvents the focus fire issue the bikemaster has. Shame you lost, you were so close to that top 16 bid sir!
@jy2- actually they have removed the rulebook AND psychic cards in preparation for the rules update. This gives me hope at least that they will change the tables. I think we can all agree that those tables aren't remotely balanced. Prescience shouldn't be a power in my opinion (maybe 2 warp charges) let alone a primaris. I literally don't even remember all the pyromancy spells off the top of my head that's how bad they are.
Ecstasy in Service wrote: Thanks for the reply Jy2, I did think it was a slow army, I might fool around with bikes, drop pods or something to give the army a bit of reach.
I am still interested in trying the army as I do like a little thinking in my 40k, after playing gun line for a while I like some interesting strategy, which is the reason I play the game anyway
You're welcome.
Oftentimes, I find the fun to be in the experimenting. It's fun to try different stuff out until you find the combo that is just right for your taste. Have fun!
I guess you are thinking Spyder Star would try to tackle Centstars or other Deathstars head on. I don't think that's necessarily the approach. The gutshot to pull off is to deploy a Deathmark(x5) and Despairtek(x2) killteam via Nightscythe 1" away from the Centstar, to punish the opponent from putting so many points into a single unit. Running Obyron means you can take a guerilla rather than head-on approach and keep your own Deathstar safe via teleport, even teleporting directly out of combat. Running Nemesor means you can get that Nightscythe anytime enemy reserves come on. What stops a Death and Despairtek team from wiping a good chunk of the Centstar and otherwise being a solid tool in such a Deathstar heavy field?
I will admit that my experience with the spyderstar is somewhat limited. From what I've seen so far, most spyderstar players are running something like this:
Zandrehk
Obyron
Destroyer Lord
Troops in Night Scythes
2x6 Wraiths
2x Annihilation Barges
3x Spyders
Spyderstar would teleport near the enemy to soak up their firepower whereas the wraiths advance to help out (or they deepstrike in on the opponent's turn). This tactic won't work against the Centurionstar as the spyders would only get shot to heck. Then the Centurionstar is only dealing with 2 units of wraiths instead of 2 units of wraiths + 2 Destroyer Lords.
Of course other spyderstar builds could exist. But in any case, if I was playing the Centurionstar against the spyderstar, I would keep all my units close to the Centurionstar. Thus, even if the spyderstar was to try to go after my other units (a la guerilla tactics), they'd most likely have to move into the potential 30" threat range of the Centurions.
D&D (Death & Despair) crons can potentially hurt the Centurionstar, but they won't be able to cripple them, even if you run 2 units. The Centstar can minimize the damage as long as they spread out and put those 2+/3++ Chapter Masters at the ends (were the enemy is most likely coming), they should take a couple of wounds at most. And in the case they get Forewarning (like they did in my game), damage can even be limited furthermore. Keep in mind that the centurions are T5 with 2W each and can't be insta-killed by the Despair-teks. Neither can the Chapter Masters (T5 for one, Eternal Warrior for the other).
Now I'm not saying that the spyderstar wouldn't work against the Centurionstar. IMO, I just think that wraithwing Necrons actually match up better against the Centurionstar, but this is just my cursory impressions without any playtesting of the spyderstar yet.
thanatos67 wrote: As you can see, jim has home turf advantage (necron table). Will it save him from one of the cheesiest armies ever ?
Tims gravstar list is really strong, and misfortune is pretty much as good of a malediction as fortune is a blessing. I like his switch over to a jump pack on the e-shield master as it circumvents the focus fire issue the bikemaster has. Shame you lost, you were so close to that top 16 bid sir!
So says the Tau player in Hammer & Anvil deployment. Goodness, if there's anything I hate playing against more, it's 2+ re-rollable's and Tau in H&A deployment. I'm just glad the Ovesastar can't also take a farseer for Fortune as well. Haha....
Well, I already played against 1 Tau player in H&A at Adepticon so far. Let's see if my luck against them can continue.
Yeah, it just wasn't meant to be. I've been lucky so far. In almost every major tournament that I've been to so far in my brief tournament career (see my sig below), I've won something. This was actually the first one where I didn't. I know I could take on his (Tim's) list. I still feel that it is actually a favorable matchup for me, but I guess I'm just going to have to try again next time.
Thanks for the game Justin. Our battle will be coming out soon.
Red Corsair wrote: @jy2- actually they have removed the rulebook AND psychic cards in preparation for the rules update. This gives me hope at least that they will change the tables. I think we can all agree that those tables aren't remotely balanced. Prescience shouldn't be a power in my opinion (maybe 2 warp charges) let alone a primaris. I literally don't even remember all the pyromancy spells off the top of my head that's how bad they are.
Heres to hoping anyway.
The thing they really need to change the most is the Allies matrix. With the exception of Tau and Eldar, that matrix is just so biased against the Xenos armies it isn't even funny.
And for the armies without access to psychic powers, they should at least give them better psychic defense to balance it out.
I guess you are thinking Spyder Star would try to tackle Centstars or other Deathstars head on. I don't think that's necessarily the approach. The gutshot to pull off is to deploy a Deathmark(x5) and Despairtek(x2) killteam via Nightscythe 1" away from the Centstar, to punish the opponent from putting so many points into a single unit. Running Obyron means you can take a guerilla rather than head-on approach and keep your own Deathstar safe via teleport, even teleporting directly out of combat. Running Nemesor means you can get that Nightscythe anytime enemy reserves come on. What stops a Death and Despairtek team from wiping a good chunk of the Centstar and otherwise being a solid tool in such a Deathstar heavy field?
I will admit that my experience with the spyderstar is somewhat limited. From what I've seen so far, most spyderstar players are running something like this:
Zandrehk
Obyron
Destroyer Lord
Troops in Night Scythes
2x6 Wraiths
2x Annihilation Barges
3x Spyders
Spyderstar would teleport near the enemy to soak up their firepower whereas the wraiths advance to help out (or they deepstrike in on the opponent's turn). This tactic won't work against the Centurionstar as the spyders would only get shot to heck. Then the Centurionstar is only dealing with 2 units of wraiths instead of 2 units of wraiths + 2 Destroyer Lords.
Of course other spyderstar builds could exist. But in any case, if I was playing the Centurionstar against the spyderstar, I would keep all my units close to the Centurionstar. Thus, even if the spyderstar was to try to go after my other units (a la guerilla tactics), they'd most likely have to move into the potential 30" threat range of the Centurions.
D&D (Death & Despair) crons can potentially hurt the Centurionstar, but they won't be able to cripple them, even if you run 2 units. The Centstar can minimize the damage as long as they spread out and put those 2+/3++ Chapter Masters at the ends (were the enemy is most likely coming), they should take a couple of wounds at most. And in the case they get Forewarning (like they did in my game), damage can even be limited furthermore. Keep in mind that the centurions are T5 with 2W each and can't be insta-killed by the Despair-teks. Neither can the Chapter Masters (T5 for one, Eternal Warrior for the other).
Now I'm not saying that the spyderstar wouldn't work against the Centurionstar. IMO, I just think that wraithwing Necrons actually match up better against the Centurionstar, but this is just my cursory impressions without any playtesting of the spyderstar yet.
Abyssal Staff aint working like that. You resolve ID against target LD value (cf. Necron FAQ) Im running now triple death&despair squads in scythes nowadays so im pretty well informed Moreover in todays meta this list with marks is very well and can play against most enemies, including deathstars, taudar-porn (possible draw, but still better than wraithwing) and so on. I woulndt try to kill this deathstar with them, probably I would try to avoid them and kill troops, if you have 6 abyssal staffs with triple deathmarks and 7 night scythes it is very easy to acheive.
And youre right that pure wraithwing without spyders/scarabs is more effective against centurionstar.
Normally, that would be true. I even thought that the first time I heard about the spyderstar, but after examining the list more carefully, I can see it functioning just as well without the scarabs if used in "deathstar-threat-overload" mode.
Here's how it would work. Spyders hide 1st turn. Then on Turn 2, they teleport into the enemy backfield. Then on your opponent's turn, when his reserves come in, you bring in your reserves as well via Zandrekh's Phased Reinforcements. Deepstrike both of your wraiths and your night scythes will come in as well. All of a sudden, it's not just the spyderstar they have to deal with. It's the spyderstar and 2 units of wraiths in their backfield, all of your flyers and your AB's as well. Basically, all of a sudden, your opponent has to deal with your entire army in their face and all at once!
I guess you are thinking Spyder Star would try to tackle Centstars or other Deathstars head on. I don't think that's necessarily the approach. The gutshot to pull off is to deploy a Deathmark(x5) and Despairtek(x2) killteam via Nightscythe 1" away from the Centstar, to punish the opponent from putting so many points into a single unit. Running Obyron means you can take a guerilla rather than head-on approach and keep your own Deathstar safe via teleport, even teleporting directly out of combat. Running Nemesor means you can get that Nightscythe anytime enemy reserves come on. What stops a Death and Despairtek team from wiping a good chunk of the Centstar and otherwise being a solid tool in such a Deathstar heavy field?
I will admit that my experience with the spyderstar is somewhat limited. From what I've seen so far, most spyderstar players are running something like this:
Zandrehk
Obyron
Destroyer Lord
Troops in Night Scythes
2x6 Wraiths
2x Annihilation Barges
3x Spyders
Spyderstar would teleport near the enemy to soak up their firepower whereas the wraiths advance to help out (or they deepstrike in on the opponent's turn). This tactic won't work against the Centurionstar as the spyders would only get shot to heck. Then the Centurionstar is only dealing with 2 units of wraiths instead of 2 units of wraiths + 2 Destroyer Lords.
Of course other spyderstar builds could exist. But in any case, if I was playing the Centurionstar against the spyderstar, I would keep all my units close to the Centurionstar. Thus, even if the spyderstar was to try to go after my other units (a la guerilla tactics), they'd most likely have to move into the potential 30" threat range of the Centurions.
D&D (Death & Despair) crons can potentially hurt the Centurionstar, but they won't be able to cripple them, even if you run 2 units. The Centstar can minimize the damage as long as they spread out and put those 2+/3++ Chapter Masters at the ends (were the enemy is most likely coming), they should take a couple of wounds at most. And in the case they get Forewarning (like they did in my game), damage can even be limited furthermore. Keep in mind that the centurions are T5 with 2W each and can't be insta-killed by the Despair-teks. Neither can the Chapter Masters (T5 for one, Eternal Warrior for the other).
Now I'm not saying that the spyderstar wouldn't work against the Centurionstar. IMO, I just think that wraithwing Necrons actually match up better against the Centurionstar, but this is just my cursory impressions without any playtesting of the spyderstar yet.
Abyssal Staff aint working like that. You resolve ID against target LD value (cf. Necron FAQ) Im running now triple death&despair squads in scythes nowadays so im pretty well informed Moreover in todays meta this list with marks is very well and can play against most enemies, including deathstars, taudar-porn (possible draw, but still better than wraithwing) and so on. I woulndt try to kill this deathstar with them, probably I would try to avoid them and kill troops, if you have 6 abyssal staffs with triple deathmarks and 7 night scythes it is very easy to acheive.
And youre right that pure wraithwing without spyders/scarabs is more effective against centurionstar.
Don't have my book right now, but isn't ID still resolved against the enemy's Toughness. I thought it was the wounding that was resolved against LD, no? BTW, I don't run the D&D-crons.
Game #5 - Necrons + White Scars vs Venom-spam + FMC Tyranids
Since I was out of the running for the Singles event, I got in a couple of pickup games on Day #2 of Adepticon. First up, my roomate, Stephen "Chancetragedy" and I had a 2-vs-2 game against Frankie and Geoff from Team Zero Comp. Now a little history on our opponents. I've been playing against Frankie "The World's Greatest 40K Player" forever. In our games, either I have the best of luck against him (and him the worst of luck against me) or my lists just dominate his. For whatever reason, Frankie has yet to beat me one-on-one. He's only ever beaten me once. Ironically, that was the first time I ever faced him and it was also a 2-v-2 game between me and SabrX against Frankie and Reece:
So fast forward a few years into the future. Now, we are going 2-vs-2 once again and this will be the 1st time I am playing against Frankie and Geoff together. Hmmmm....could this be deja vu? As for Geoff, Geoff is a Starcraft stud (and former "professional" Starcraft player and celeb) who just started playing 40K recently. However, his bugs are not to be taken lightly. I've only played against Geoff once so far. He was my Wraithwing Necron's first loss ever in 6th Edition:
As for my partner, Stephen, he is also my roommate for this trip. Stephen is more of a casual-competitive player. He actually runs pretty strong tournament lists, though from what he's told me, hasn't had too much success at the larger GT's. All 3 of us - me, Frankie and Geoff - are running our Adepticon 1850 lists. Stephen is actually running something different. For the tournament, he ran beaststar Deldar. For our 2-on-2, he's running White Scars.
Anyways, without further ado, our lists.
Team Roommates
1850 Jy2's Wraithwing Necrons
Destroyer Lord - 2+, Mindshackle Scarabs, ResOrb
Destroyer Lord - 2+, Mindshackle Scarabs
5x Immortals - Gauss Blasters, Night Scythe
5x Immortals - Gauss Blasters, Night Scythe
5x Warriors - Night Scythe
5x Warriors - Night Scythe
8x Bikers - 2x Gravguns, Attack Bike w/Multi-melta, Combi-grav
8x Bikers - 2x Gravguns, Attack Bike w/Multi-melta
8x Bikers - 2x Gravguns, Attack Bike w/Multi-melta
Stormtalon - Skyhammer
Stormtalon - Skyhammer
Thunderfire Cannon
Thunderfire Cannon
Allies:
Space Wolf Rune Priest - 2+, Bike, Jaws + another power
5x Grey Hunters - Flamer
----------------------------------- Versus -----------------------------------
Team Zero Comp
1850 Frankie's Venom-spam Deldar
Vect
Haemonculus - Hexrifle, Crucible of Malediction
5x Warriors - Venom w/Splinter Cannon, Night Shields & Grisley Trophies
5x Warriors - Venom w/Splinter Cannon, Night Shields
5x Warriors - Venom w/Splinter Cannon, Night Shields
5x Warriors - Venom w/Splinter Cannon, Night Shields
5x Warriors - Venom w/Splinter Cannon, Night Shields
Ravager - Dark Lances, Night Shields, Torment Grenade Launchers
Ravager - Dark Lances, Night Shields, Torment Grenade Launchers
Ravager - Dark Lances, Night Shields, Torment Grenade Launchers
Adepticon uses only Primary and Secondary objectives. The Primary Objectives always consists of 2 missions. It's actually quite simple. If you get more Primary Objectives than your opponent, you earn a Crushing Victory. Otherwise, if the Primary is tied, then you go on to the Secondaries. The Secondaries consist of First Blood, Linebreaker and Slay the Warlord. If you tie on the Primary and win via Secondaries, then it is a Minor Victory.
Primary Objectives:
1. Victory Points
2. The Scouring - Fast Attacks are scoring. However, if you kill a Heavy, then it counts as 2 VP's for Primary Objective #1 instead. 5 Objectives total.
Honestly, I don't quite remember exactly whether we played the Adepticon missions or a LVO mission. But regardless, it was VP's and the Scouring.
Secondary Objectives: First Blood, Linebreaker and Slay the Warlord
I'll say this plainly. Whoever is going first has a huge advantage. We both have super-shooty armies. We both have devastating alpha-strike potential. Now it's a matter of whoever can strike the first crippling blow. Honestly, even though Team Roommates (that's us) are going first, I really don't know if that is a good thing. Because of Vect's ability to steal the initiative on a 4+, there's a 50/50 chance of us getting caught "with our pants down." It almost makes me want to go 2nd. At least that way, we could brace for their alpha-strike by counter-deploying. We would also get the final say on objectives.
With regards to Victory Points, I think we have a slight advantage. Frankie's army just bleeds kill points (VP's). However, they've got enough skyfire (FMC's) to down my fliers and my partner will be combat-squadding so VP's might actually be close.
With regards to objectives. We both have a lot of troops. Frankie's troops outnumber mine. However, as it is the Scouring, my wraiths will be scoring. And while Geoff only has 2 scoring units, he can pump out more with his tervigon and 3 of his FMC's will be scoring as well. As for my teammate Stephen, I believe he's got 9 scoring units after combat squadding (that's including his 2 stormravens).
Our strategy is this. With his Scout moves, the White Scars will form the vanguard of our assault. My wraiths would then be the 2nd wave as well as counter-assault punch. We dare them to assault our bikers backed by my wraiths. Meanwhile, I plan to focus down on the Dark Eldar with our shooting. Gravguns go after MC's. Everything else after the DE skimmers. Oh, and thunderfires will pick out those annoying venomthropes, after which they will focus on trying to double-out Vect.
But all that depends on if we really get to go first or not. If we do, Team Zero Comp will be in trouble. If they steal, we're going to be in deep sh*t. Right now, I'd say the game is a 50/50. Anyone can take it.
I don't remember exactly what psychic powers Frankie's farseer got, but Prescience and Misfortune were definitely among them (probably Guide for the 3rd power).
Our (Team Roommates) deployment.
Frankie & Geoff's (Team Zero Comp) deployment.
Stephen then does his Scout moves for his bikers. With Jaws and grav-weaponry, we will be going after the bugs first (actually, I will be going after Frankie's skimmer).
Ok, now for the make-it-or-break-it moment.
Vect attempts to steal and I start to sweat a little. Needing a 4+ to steal, Frankie then rolls and....
We actually make a little mistake. It turns out that Stephen's Rune Priest is just out of range to jaws the tervigon. Instead, Jaws hit the exocrine but it passes its Initiative test.
Due to bad scatter, we are forced to fire both Thunderfires just to take out 1 venomthrope, which nets us First Blood. We also kill 5 gants in the process (between biker shooting and the TFC's).
VP's - Roommates: 1, Team Zero Comp: 0
My barges manage to explode 1 venom. 2 troops die in the explosion and they fall back.
VP's - Roommates: 2, Team Zero Comp: 0
Finally, we also take out 1 of the hive crones. Because it is a Fast Attack, it is worth double-VP's.
VP's - Roommates: 4, Team Zero Comp: 0
Not bad, but honestly, our alpha-strike was a little underwhelming. I was actually expecting us to do a lot more damage, including taking out the tervigon, both venomthropes and probably another hive crone or venom. But I'm not going to complain.....
Team Zero Comp 1
Farseer is out of range to cast Misfortune but does cast his other powers (assume they would go off each turn unless otherwise noted).
Hive crones fly off the table, but not before killing 4 bikers.
DE move.
Flyrants fly off the table as well. Tyrannofex (T-fex) gets ready to assault.
Practically the entire DE army (except the guardians w/Vect) focus on my wraithstar. They kill 4 wraiths and put 2W on my non-Warlord Destroyer Lord (D-lord). Fortunately for me, his farseer was out of range to Misfortune them.
Shooting and then assault by Vect's unit wipes out a bike combat squad.
VP's - Roommates: 4, Team Zero Comp: 1
F-fex shoots and then assaults. The unit survives. However, I believe they fail their Hit-&-Run test.
Turn 2
Spoiler:
Team Roommates 2
3 out of 4 flyers come in. Well, actually 4 out of 6 if you count the stormtalon.
Necrons and the White Scars advance.
We continue to apply the pressure. The lone surviving jetbike falls back onto an objective.
Thunderfires (TFC's) drop their pie plates onto the guardians and kill 10. Vect survives unharmed.
Teslas take out 1 venom and 1 ravager here. I also take off 1-2 Hull Points from a 2nd ravager. A few Kabalite warriors die in the explosion.
VP's - Roommates: 6, Team Zero Comp: 1
Without any flying Tyranid targets, my crons (and the stormtalon) continue to decimate Frankie's Deldar.
I wipe out another 3 venoms and take off 1-HP from the last one. 2 units of warriors either die from the explosions or more shooting or they run away.
VP's - Roommates: 11, Team Zero Comp: 1
Mercy is for the weak. We take out the Haemonculus as well.
VP's - Roommates: 12, Team Zero Comp: 1
Finally, 2 units of wraiths plus my Warlord and Stephen's command squad bikerstar assault into and completely wipe out the screening 30-termagant unit.
VP's - Roommates: 13, Team Zero Comp: 1
Did I tell you that Necron Tesla-crons vs DE Venom-spam is about as unfair as DE Venom-spam vs Tyranids? Well, now you can see why.
Team Zero Comp 2
Here come the Tyranid reinforcements.
The farseer tries to Misfortune one of my wraith units but I deny it. Why the heck couldn't I do that against the Centurionstar?!?
The wraithknight (WK) and Vect go for some payback.
Ravager darklances take off 2-HP's and the secondary gun on my AB. DE shooting also wipes out my D-lord and wraiths.
VP's - Roommates: 13, Team Zero Comp: 3
Fortunately for me, my D-lord got back up (on a 5+).
WK takes out an annihilation barge (AB).
VP's - Roommates: 13, Team Zero Comp: 4
Wow!!! Tyranid shooting is incredibly effective. My saves are not. They take out all 3 of my night scythes.
VP's - Roommates: 13, Team Zero Comp: 7
Not only that, but the flyrant also takes out the stormtalon as well!
VP's - Roommates: 13, Team Zero Comp: 9
If Team Zero Comp manages to win this, I'm going to have to give the credit to Geoff's bugs. Just an awesome turn of shooting from them!
Tervigon produce more gants. Geoff then charges all 3 of his TMC's into my Warlord-less wraiths.
He ends up killing 3. 1 exocrine and the tervigon consolidate out of combat because they can't make it into base-to-base with my wraiths after combat.
Turn 3
Spoiler:
Team Roommates 3
The other stormtalon comes in.
Bikers go for an objective (or maybe they regrouped from last turn, not 100% sure).
We shoot down another 1 hive crone.
VP's - Roommates: 15, Team Zero Comp: 9
Other than that, our shooting isn't very effective. We cause a few Wounds here and there but fail to kill anything else.
Stephen's bikerstar shoots at and then charges the T-fex...
....and takes him out.
VP's - Roommates: 16, Team Zero Comp: 9
My D-lord assaults and takes out the last venom.
VP's - Roommates: 17, Team Zero Comp: 9
Last but not least, my wraithstar (with my Warlord) assaults and kills the tervigon. The ensuing explosion then takes out 1 unit of termagants.
VP's - Roommates: 19, Team Zero Comp: 9
Exocrine and 2 wraiths continue to whiff against each other. I believe Vect finishes off a unit of bikers.
VP's - Roommates: 19, Team Zero Comp: 10
Team Zero Comp 3
Tyranids and Deldar go after Stephen's Bikerstar. I believe the farseer successfully Misfortunes them.
Ravager takes out an AB.
VP's - Roommates: 19, Team Zero Comp: 11
DE shooting takes out my D-lord. This time, he doesn't get back up.
VP's - Roommates: 19, Team Zero Comp: 12
Shooting reduces the bike squad down to 1 guy and I believe kills one of the IC's (I think the Rune Priest). Vect and his cronies then assault into the bikerstar. They would remain locked in combat.
VP's - Roommates: 19, Team Zero Comp: 13
Turn 4
Spoiler:
Team Roommates 4
My last flyer comes in. Necron troops (from my downed flyers) move towards the objectives.
Shooting takes out the hive crone. I believe this turn, we also take out one of the flyrants (not the Warlord one).
VP's - Roommates: 22, Team Zero Comp: 13
Wraithstar goes after Vect's unit or the wraithknight.
Dammit! My wraithstar fails a 4" charge into the Vect-bikerstar combat.
On the other hand, Vect and his unit finishes off the bikerstar. That's the biker unit, Chapter Master and Khan, thus giving our opponent 1 Slay the Warlord (each Team has 2 Warlords).
VP's - Roommates: 22, Team Zero Comp: 16
Team Zero Comp 4
Again, the farseer tries to Misfortune my wraithstar and once again, I manage to deny it!
The Warlord flyrant (with Catalyst on) goes after our troops.
He shoots down my last night scythe.
VP's - Roommates: 22, Team Zero Comp: 17
Exocrine kill another wraith in combat.
Finally, Vect's unit and the WK charges my wraithstar.
They kill 3 wraiths. I wipe out the guardians.
VP's - Roommates: 23, Team Zero Comp: 17
Turn 5
Spoiler:
Team Roommates 5
We focus our entire army and bring down the Warlord flyrant, thus netting us Slay the Warlord as well.
VP's - Roommates: 24, Team Zero Comp: 17
We grab all 3 Scouring objectives on our side.
My lone wraith finally win the battle of attrition against the exocrine (I have been slowly taking 1-2W from it each turn).
VP's - Roommates: 25, Team Zero Comp: 17
In combat, the Deldar finally finishes off my wraiths.
VP's - Roommates: 25, Team Zero Comp: 18
Team Zero Comp 5
This will be the last turn due to time.
Ravager takes out the stormtalon, which went into Hovering mode last turn.
VP's - Roommates: 25, Team Zero Comp: 20
In combat, Vect takes out my Warlord Destroyer Lord.....
....well, not really. He gets back up.
Finally, exocrine takes out my last wraith.
VP's - Roommates: 25, Team Zero Comp: 22
Aftermath of the battle.
While the VP-count isn't exact, I'm pretty sure we won VP's. For objectives, we take 3 of the objectives whereas Team Zero Comp takes 2. I believe they take the 1-pt and 2-pt objectives, whereas we take the 3-pt, 3-pt and 2-pt objectives. Going by LVO rules, we take the Scouring. Going by Adepticon rules, it is a draw as we didn't beat our opponents by 7-pts or more in the Scouring.
We get First Blood. We tie on Warlord (they kill Khan (or maybe the Chapter Master), we kill the flyrant). Neither of us gets Linebreaker. For both Adepticon and LVO missions, we win both the Primary and the Secondary.
Don't have my book right now, but isn't ID still resolved against the enemy's Toughness. I thought it was the wounding that was resolved against LD, no? BTW, I don't run the D&D-crons.
They FAQ'd the staff.
Q: When using an abyssalstaf , do you use the target’s Toughness or
Leadership for the purposes of working out if Instant Death applies?
(p84)
A: You use the target’s Leadership.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for the match, I like that you and Chance have the first turn. I think that gives you a fair edge.
Lets scout do its job and get some early hits. Should give you guys FB for sure. The nids won't be in the air or rolling powers yet..ABS getting up in the mix fast, put down the ravs and crones and the ABs run free rest of the game....
I will say running beast star at the championships was such a big mistake I feel like if I had taken my bikes I go 2-2 at worst. I would say I lean more toward the competitive side of things but I'm also not gonna let losing ruin my good time.
As to my list Jy2 that's close as in the parts are all there just organized a little a little different. The biker troops squads are all 8man +attk bike with 2 grav each and then they just combat squad.
And say what?!? The rune priest can take another power besides jaws? ;p. anyways he always takes living lightning as the non jaws power. Also the grey hunters have a flamer.
Edit: actual list cause I'm bored a work
Chapter master - bike, hammer, Winshield, artificer
Khan - moonbike
Rune priest - runic armor, bike
8 bikers - mm attk bike, 2 grav, combi grav
8 bikers - mm attk bike, 2 grav
8 bikers - mm attk bike, 2 grav
5grey hunters - flamer
2xstorm talon - skyhammers
2xTFC
Normally, that would be true. I even thought that the first time I heard about the spyderstar, but after examining the list more carefully, I can see it functioning just as well without the scarabs if used in "deathstar-threat-overload" mode.
Here's how it would work. Spyders hide 1st turn. Then on Turn 2, they teleport into the enemy backfield. Then on your opponent's turn, when his reserves come in, you bring in your reserves as well via Zandrekh's Phased Reinforcements. Deepstrike both of your wraiths and your night scythes will come in as well. All of a sudden, it's not just the spyderstar they have to deal with. It's the spyderstar and 2 units of wraiths in their backfield, all of your flyers and your AB's as well. Basically, all of a sudden, your opponent has to deal with your entire army in their face and all at once!
I guess you are thinking Spyder Star would try to tackle Centstars or other Deathstars head on. I don't think that's necessarily the approach. The gutshot to pull off is to deploy a Deathmark(x5) and Despairtek(x2) killteam via Nightscythe 1" away from the Centstar, to punish the opponent from putting so many points into a single unit. Running Obyron means you can take a guerilla rather than head-on approach and keep your own Deathstar safe via teleport, even teleporting directly out of combat. Running Nemesor means you can get that Nightscythe anytime enemy reserves come on. What stops a Death and Despairtek team from wiping a good chunk of the Centstar and otherwise being a solid tool in such a Deathstar heavy field?
I will admit that my experience with the spyderstar is somewhat limited. From what I've seen so far, most spyderstar players are running something like this:
Zandrehk
Obyron
Destroyer Lord
Troops in Night Scythes
2x6 Wraiths
2x Annihilation Barges
3x Spyders
Spyderstar would teleport near the enemy to soak up their firepower whereas the wraiths advance to help out (or they deepstrike in on the opponent's turn). This tactic won't work against the Centurionstar as the spyders would only get shot to heck. Then the Centurionstar is only dealing with 2 units of wraiths instead of 2 units of wraiths + 2 Destroyer Lords.
Of course other spyderstar builds could exist. But in any case, if I was playing the Centurionstar against the spyderstar, I would keep all my units close to the Centurionstar. Thus, even if the spyderstar was to try to go after my other units (a la guerilla tactics), they'd most likely have to move into the potential 30" threat range of the Centurions.
D&D (Death & Despair) crons can potentially hurt the Centurionstar, but they won't be able to cripple them, even if you run 2 units. The Centstar can minimize the damage as long as they spread out and put those 2+/3++ Chapter Masters at the ends (were the enemy is most likely coming), they should take a couple of wounds at most. And in the case they get Forewarning (like they did in my game), damage can even be limited furthermore. Keep in mind that the centurions are T5 with 2W each and can't be insta-killed by the Despair-teks. Neither can the Chapter Masters (T5 for one, Eternal Warrior for the other).
Now I'm not saying that the spyderstar wouldn't work against the Centurionstar. IMO, I just think that wraithwing Necrons actually match up better against the Centurionstar, but this is just my cursory impressions without any playtesting of the spyderstar yet.
Abyssal Staff aint working like that. You resolve ID against target LD value (cf. Necron FAQ) Im running now triple death&despair squads in scythes nowadays so im pretty well informed Moreover in todays meta this list with marks is very well and can play against most enemies, including deathstars, taudar-porn (possible draw, but still better than wraithwing) and so on. I woulndt try to kill this deathstar with them, probably I would try to avoid them and kill troops, if you have 6 abyssal staffs with triple deathmarks and 7 night scythes it is very easy to acheive.
And youre right that pure wraithwing without spyders/scarabs is more effective against centurionstar.
Don't have my book right now, but isn't ID still resolved against the enemy's Toughness. I thought it was the wounding that was resolved against LD, no? BTW, I don't run the D&D-crons.
Scarabs are so good for the points. I can't see SpyderStar doing as well overall as Scarab Farming. Plus all the Scarabs you generate are free points and it can get really crazy. Certainly it's RPS but that's true of most every meta net list you see now.
I think Team 0Comp has this. A ton of FMC's, and enough shooting to kill every biker turn 1. If Chance scouts he loses all his bikes. Tentaclids will also be handy for dropping AB's. The Wraiths might a problem unless the Farseer can land Misfortune, or the Guardian blob is left alone, they could seriously cripple a wraith squad.
SwistakCZC wrote: Abyssal Staff aint working like that. You resolve ID against target LD value (cf. Necron FAQ) Im running now triple death&despair squads in scythes nowadays so im pretty well informed Moreover in todays meta this list with marks is very well and can play against most enemies, including deathstars, taudar-porn (possible draw, but still better than wraithwing) and so on. I woulndt try to kill this deathstar with them, probably I would try to avoid them and kill troops, if you have 6 abyssal staffs with triple deathmarks and 7 night scythes it is very easy to acheive.
I'm curious what your list is with triple D&D squads. I really like that squad / combo, but I just haven't been able to come up with a list that utilizes them effectively.
SwistakCZC wrote: Abyssal Staff aint working like that. You resolve ID against target LD value (cf. Necron FAQ) Im running now triple death&despair squads in scythes nowadays so im pretty well informed Moreover in todays meta this list with marks is very well and can play against most enemies, including deathstars, taudar-porn (possible draw, but still better than wraithwing) and so on. I woulndt try to kill this deathstar with them, probably I would try to avoid them and kill troops, if you have 6 abyssal staffs with triple deathmarks and 7 night scythes it is very easy to acheive.
I'm curious what your list is with triple D&D squads. I really like that squad / combo, but I just haven't been able to come up with a list that utilizes them effectively.
Yup, I really like the combo and models too. So my list is in fact scythe spam, but D&D squads are truly engine of this list. After a lot of evolutions I created list like this for 1850pts:
2 OL (both 2+, one with warscythe and mss) 6 Flamers 3 Haywires
3 Deathmarks in Scythes 1 Gauss Immortals in Scythe 3 Warriors in Scythes
Bastion, comms
In defiance of common beliefs its very versatile. Can play almost everything in todays meta. I tried also to combine av13 spam (ccb, 3xab, 2xga) with double deathmarks squads and it had also done well.
SwistakCZC wrote: Yup, I really like the combo and models too. So my list is in fact scythe spam, but D&D squads are truly engine of this list. After a lot of evolutions I created list like this for 1850pts:
2 OL (both 2+, one with warscythe and mss)
6 Flamers
3 Haywires
3 Deathmarks in Scythes
1 Gauss Immortals in Scythe
3 Warriors in Scythes
Bastion, comms
In defiance of common beliefs its very versatile. Can play almost everything in todays meta. I tried also to combine av13 spam (ccb, 3xab, 2xga) with double deathmarks squads and it had also done well.
Interesting, I'm going to have to play around with something like this. I've been considering more of a Flying Circus / Scythe Spam build for a while, just to change it up, and I really like the idea of having 3x D&D squads (3x Marks and the ability to slap 6 super flamers down on one squad just sounds mean.
I'll say this plainly. Whoever is going first has a huge advantage. We both have super-shooty armies. We both have devastating alpha-strike potential. Now it's a matter of whoever can strike the first crippling blow. Honestly, even though Team Roommates (that's us) are going first, I really don't know if that is a good thing. Because of Vect's ability to steal the initiative on a 4+, there's a 50/50 chance of us getting caught "with our pants down." It almost makes me want to go 2nd. At least that way, we could brace for their alpha-strike by counter-deploying. We would also get the final say on objectives.
With regards to Victory Points, I think we have a slight advantage. Frankie's army just bleeds kill points (VP's). However, they've got enough skyfire (FMC's) to down my fliers and my partner will be combat-squadding so VP's might actually be close.
With regards to objectives. We both have a lot of troops. Frankie's troops outnumber mine. However, as it is the Scouring, my wraiths will be scoring. And while Geoff only has 2 scoring units, he can pump out more with his tervigon and 3 of his FMC's will be scoring as well. As for my teammate Stephen, I believe he's got 9 scoring units after combat squadding (that's including his 2 stormravens).
Our strategy is this. With his Scout moves, the White Scars will form the vanguard of our assault. My wraiths would then be the 2nd wave as well as counter-assault punch. We dare them to assault our bikers backed by my wraiths. Meanwhile, I plan to focus down on the Dark Eldar with our shooting. Gravguns go after MC's. Everything else after the DE skimmers. Oh, and thunderfires will pick out those annoying venomthropes, after which they will focus on trying to double-out Vect.
But all that depends on if we really get to go first or not. If we do, Team Zero Comp will be in trouble. If they steal, we're going to be in deep sh*t. Right now, I'd say the game is a 50/50. Anyone can take it.
Don't have my book right now, but isn't ID still resolved against the enemy's Toughness. I thought it was the wounding that was resolved against LD, no? BTW, I don't run the D&D-crons.
They FAQ'd the staff.
Q: When using an abyssalstaf , do you use the target’s Toughness or
Leadership for the purposes of working out if Instant Death applies?
(p84)
A: You use the target’s Leadership.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for the match, I like that you and Chance have the first turn. I think that gives you a fair edge.
Lets scout do its job and get some early hits. Should give you guys FB for sure. The nids won't be in the air or rolling powers yet..ABS getting up in the mix fast, put down the ravs and crones and the ABs run free rest of the game....
My prediction... crushing victory for WW/WS
Cool. Glad that it's been FAQ'd. Like I said, I don't normally play the D&D-crons.
Chancetragedy wrote: I will say running beast star at the championships was such a big mistake I feel like if I had taken my bikes I go 2-2 at worst. I would say I lean more toward the competitive side of things but I'm also not gonna let losing ruin my good time.
As to my list Jy2 that's close as in the parts are all there just organized a little a little different. The biker troops squads are all 8man +attk bike with 2 grav each and then they just combat squad.
And say what?!? The rune priest can take another power besides jaws? ;p. anyways he always takes living lightning as the non jaws power. Also the grey hunters have a flamer.
Edit: actual list cause I'm bored a work
Chapter master - bike, hammer, Winshield, artificer
Khan - moonbike
Rune priest - runic armor, bike
8 bikers - mm attk bike, 2 grav, combi grav
8 bikers - mm attk bike, 2 grav
8 bikers - mm attk bike, 2 grav
5grey hunters - flamer
2xstorm talon - skyhammers
2xTFC
Scarabs are so good for the points. I can't see SpyderStar doing as well overall as Scarab Farming. Plus all the Scarabs you generate are free points and it can get really crazy. Certainly it's RPS but that's true of most every meta net list you see now.
My prediction is Team Zero Comp wins.
Combining both the spyderstar and scarabfarm will definitely make for an interesting build. I may have to try that one of these days.
jathomas2013 wrote: I think Team 0Comp has this. A ton of FMC's, and enough shooting to kill every biker turn 1. If Chance scouts he loses all his bikes. Tentaclids will also be handy for dropping AB's. The Wraiths might a problem unless the Farseer can land Misfortune, or the Guardian blob is left alone, they could seriously cripple a wraith squad.
SwistakCZC wrote: Abyssal Staff aint working like that. You resolve ID against target LD value (cf. Necron FAQ) Im running now triple death&despair squads in scythes nowadays so im pretty well informed Moreover in todays meta this list with marks is very well and can play against most enemies, including deathstars, taudar-porn (possible draw, but still better than wraithwing) and so on. I woulndt try to kill this deathstar with them, probably I would try to avoid them and kill troops, if you have 6 abyssal staffs with triple deathmarks and 7 night scythes it is very easy to acheive.
I'm curious what your list is with triple D&D squads. I really like that squad / combo, but I just haven't been able to come up with a list that utilizes them effectively.
Yup, I really like the combo and models too. So my list is in fact scythe spam, but D&D squads are truly engine of this list. After a lot of evolutions I created list like this for 1850pts:
2 OL (both 2+, one with warscythe and mss)
6 Flamers
3 Haywires
3 Deathmarks in Scythes
1 Gauss Immortals in Scythe
3 Warriors in Scythes
Bastion, comms
In defiance of common beliefs its very versatile. Can play almost everything in todays meta. I tried also to combine av13 spam (ccb, 3xab, 2xga) with double deathmarks squads and it had also done well.
Interesting build. I am of the philosophy that you need durable units on the ground, but I can definitely see this army doing well.
It's just hard to give up on the 3 annihilation barges.
TehCheator wrote: Interesting, I'm going to have to play around with something like this. I've been considering more of a Flying Circus / Scythe Spam build for a while, just to change it up, and I really like the idea of having 3x D&D squads (3x Marks and the ability to slap 6 super flamers down on one squad just sounds mean.
If you play list approximately like this you could pm me and write how it goes, its always favourable to exchange outlook
jy2 wrote: Interesting build. I am of the philosophy that you need durable units on the ground, but I can definitely see this army doing well.
It's just hard to give up on the 3 annihilation barges.
Yeah you've hitted home, its not easy to give up those little beatuies. Thats why I tried to combined Av13 spam with 2 deathmark units. Pure aircraft list is also some inconvenience due to unhandy maneuverability. I dont have any tough ground units but with bastion and OL behind it (and possibility to have some additional units on the table), its easy to survive first turn and then you start to rock. In this list its good that you play not only with flyers but also with units embarked in (with powerful firepower), but truly it is hard to name those suicides durable units.
Game against 0comp seems difficult for you guys. I hope that batrep gonna be positive for you
And regarding game vs centurionstar, damn it was very hard for you Jy. Those gravs backed up with misfortune was so devastating... overall its sad that everything was against you in this game. It was even hard to hide in reserves and out of his range in order to attack later his weaker spots to score some easy kill points, beacause there was objectives and his deathstar was actually scoring. It was probably the best thing you could undertake.
But I dont feel this centstar, I think it is weak against any horde army and daemons. They can fight daemons back in hth, but generally I think such game is not so easy for this particular sm. Centstar has also some problems with mobility, gate is not perfect. Infiltration is whole lot better for them
And regarding game vs centurionstar, damn it was very hard for you Jy. Those gravs backed up with misfortune was so devastating... overall its sad that everything was against you in this game. It was even hard to hide in reserves and out of his range in order to attack later his weaker spots to score some easy kill points, beacause there was objectives and his deathstar was actually scoring. It was probably the best thing you could undertake.
But I dont feel this centstar, I think it is weak against any horde army and daemons. They can fight daemons back in hth, but generally I think such game is not so easy for this particular sm. Centstar has also some problems with mobility, gate is not perfect. Infiltration is whole lot better for them
Thanks.
The Centstar isn't easy to play. But I feel that one of its advantages is that it is easily under-estimated. Though I felt that my Necrons actually matched up well against it, Tim is a really, really good player and he plays the Centurionstar extremely well.
Just to give you an idea of some of the competition he has had to go through, these were his matchups at the Torrent of Fire Invitational.
2nd Rd - beat Nick Nanavati's Plaguestar Soulgrinder Daemons. BTW, as most of you know, Nick ended up winning Adepticon this year. Actually, he's won it 2 years in a row.
3rd Rd - beat Matt Schuchmann's Seer Council Eldau (yes, that's Eldar and Tau!). Matt ended up 3rd overall at the ToF Invitational. He also made it to the Top16 at this Adepticon.
4th Rd - beat John Parson's (I believe krootman here on dakka) FMC-spam Daemons w/Black Mace DP/helturkey ally.
5th Rd - beat Matt DeFranza's Seer Council Deldar to win the ToF Invitational.
6th Rd - beat me here at Adepticon. Lol. Ok, so not really a ToF game, but it shows the extent of some of the top players and armies Tim has beaten with his list.
Chancetragedy wrote: Yah until stuff really gets thinned out we were basically playing with 7200 points so stuff died hard and heavy till the end ;p
Actually, 7400-pts.
Yeah, with all that firepower on the table, units disappear at an alarming rate. Turn 2 was just incredible for both teams.
The Centstar isn't easy to play. But I feel that one of its advantages is that it is easily under-estimated. Though I felt that my Necrons actually matched up well against it, Tim is a really, really good player and he plays the Centurionstar extremely well.
2nd Rd - beat Nick Nanavati's Plaguestar Soulgrinder Daemons. BTW, as most of you know, Nick ended up winning Adepticon this year.
3rd Rd - beat Matt Schuchmann's Seer Council Eldau (yes, that's Eldar and Tau!). Matt ended up 3rd overall at the ToF Invitational. He also made it to the Top16 at this Adepticon.
4th Rd - beat John Parson's (I believe krootman here on dakka) FMC-spam Daemons w/Black Mace DP/helturkey ally.
5th Rd - beat Matt DeFranza's Seer Council Deldar to win the ToF Invitational.
6th Rd - beat me here at Adepticon. Lol. Ok, so not really a ToF game, but it shows the extent of some of the top players and armies Tim has beaten with his list.
Thanks a lot for info! I have to admit that Im interested in centurionstar and Im gonna build my own list with co-starring Centurions and check them out. I like lists that are not obvious, I belive that the key to beat top players is to suprise them, its a way harder to achieve with typical list.
I know Eldau Council, its still very powerful build even excluding Baron, still can have some h&r via Tau Commander.
So thats a lot of lists that was beaten with this particular cenurionstar, pretty impressive how many good players didint manage to win with Tim. I think it would be hard for Tim's centstar to fight screamerstars backed up with hounds without h&r and virtually any decent dakka (screamstars are very popular in my country) as well as DE venom spam very good in todays meta (DE are too mobile, with NS not easy to catch with gravs and able to put down everything except deathstar), but its obvious that every list have some difficulty from time to time, no matter how strong build it is.
herpguy wrote: Are there people out there who actually have fun sitting back and shooting all game?
I see, another person against The Greater Good. Well to be honest when I play Tau, I don't really "sit back", but I think that it all comes down to what your play style is, which then kinda dictates what armies you might play.
True, the farsight bomb is more along the lines of "stay just outside of assault range and shoot". Though I play Nids, if I ever did cross over to the dark side, that is definitely how I would play Tau. That and 9000 Broadsides
herpguy wrote: Are there people out there who actually have fun sitting back and shooting all game?
I see, another person against The Greater Good. Well to be honest when I play Tau, I don't really "sit back", but I think that it all comes down to what your play style is, which then kinda dictates what armies you might play.
Tau was my first army because a kind friend gave me some for free to get me in the game. After I had a huge Tau army I sold them all because they were just so boring.
In my opinion everything glorious and fun that happens in 40K is up close and personal. To each their own but I don't think it makes for fun games when somebody is just sitting there and removing your models from across the board.
herpguy wrote: Are there people out there who actually have fun sitting back and shooting all game?
I see, another person against The Greater Good. Well to be honest when I play Tau, I don't really "sit back", but I think that it all comes down to what your play style is, which then kinda dictates what armies you might play.
Tau was my first army because a kind friend gave me some for free to get me in the game. After I had a huge Tau army I sold them all because they were just so boring.
In my opinion everything glorious and fun that happens in 40K is up close and personal. To each their own but I don't think it makes for fun games when somebody is just sitting there and removing your models from across the board.
To be fair, I won my last game at nova on the back of one solo riptide killing off a unit of tomb spyders in close combat, then another one surviving being mindshackled and a unit of wraith/dlord swinging up on him without a 3++. Work has to be done (usually) in close combat to win-but having 4 mcs and farsight rolling around is usually enough.
herpguy wrote: Are there people out there who actually have fun sitting back and shooting all game?
I see, another person against The Greater Good. Well to be honest when I play Tau, I don't really "sit back", but I think that it all comes down to what your play style is, which then kinda dictates what armies you might play.
Tau was my first army because a kind friend gave me some for free to get me in the game. After I had a huge Tau army I sold them all because they were just so boring.
In my opinion everything glorious and fun that happens in 40K is up close and personal. To each their own but I don't think it makes for fun games when somebody is just sitting there and removing your models from across the board.
To be fair, I won my last game at nova on the back of one solo riptide killing off a unit of tomb spyders in close combat, then another one surviving being mindshackled and a unit of wraith/dlord swinging up on him without a 3++. Work has to be done (usually) in close combat to win-but having 4 mcs and farsight rolling around is usually enough.
Yeah, I also saw you cripple Matt Defaranza's Seer Council with your O'Vesa Star. The only thing that always confuses me is when the right time to strike in CC is... Like for me, I sometimes put it in cruise control and sit back and shoot a little too much, and then realize that should I have gone into assault with the Riptides, I could have done a lot more damage.
Riptides are in many ways the best MC in the game right now. They can take down Wraight Knights fairly easy in close combat due to the 3++. They are really good.
It's a tough call for me to pick who I'd think wins this match. Necrons are a good counter to Tau... Probably will come down to superior tactics and who has the better luck.
Dozer Blades wrote: Riptides are in many ways the best MC in the game right now. They can take down Wraight Knights fairly easy in close combat due to the 3++. They are really good.
It's a tough call for me to pick who I'd think wins this match. Necrons are a good counter to Tau... Probably will come down to superior tactics and who has the better luck.
This is another reason why I hate Tau. For some reason they have a MC that can pretty reliably beat a Daemon Prince in combat. Juggerlords don't stand a chance.
This is going to be a very uphill battle for the Necrons in my opinion, it's really hard for them to fight Riptides.
Dozer Blades wrote: Riptides are in many ways the best MC in the game right now. They can take down Wraight Knights fairly easy in close combat due to the 3++. They are really good.
It's a tough call for me to pick who I'd think wins this match. Necrons are a good counter to Tau... Probably will come down to superior tactics and who has the better luck.
Necrons are good counter to Tau? Typical well played taudar crushes Wraithwing easily. Didint play with ovesastar but i find it as hard matchup for crons still.
Redbeard wrote: Servoskulls prevent people from scouting (and infiltrating) near them. So they stop you getting rolled up on too early.
Although it is unlikely, in the case that the O'Vesa star gets tied up for even a turn, it could be game changing, especially when you have two players like Jim and Justin going at it
The skulls are mostly to prevent infiltrating character deathstars, specifically karandras and shadowsun in things like grav centurions or beast star.
I wanted to offer up some thoughts going into this matchup. The deployment type is hammer and anvil, which generally favors tau with their long range units such as iontides and skyrays. The mission we're playing is interesting in that you need to hold at least 3 objective markers to score the one primary objective whilst you only need to win kill points by one in order obtain that primary. Fast attack units (wraiths) are also worth two kill points. Jim has last turn with necron flyers, which helps him score, but with the abnormal objective win criteria it'll be tough for him and essentially impossible for me to obtain that objective even though his wraiths are scoring. I'm going to focus on blowing out the killpoint margin as much as possible while keeping enough riptides alive to sit on objectives in the end game in order to win that way. The bastionsides will deploy in my deployment zone-this deployment style provides me optimal coverage of the table. Couple that with the fact that warscythes are the only real threat to the bastion itself and these guys will be pumping shots into wraiths all game. I'll probably dump both skyrays into the abarges turn 1-that might seem counter intuitive given the 4 scythes in Jims army, but I'll use the skyrays' markerlights later to make the broadsides and ovesa star to even the odds on the flyers. The sooner I eliminate the barges the sooner my deathstar can stubborn/shield up and tango with the wraiths. Not to say I 'want' to charge into combat, but it's an eventuality you have to confront so having a valid plan going in is really good.
thanatos67 wrote: The skulls are mostly to prevent infiltrating character deathstars, specifically karandras and shadowsun in things like grav centurions or beast star.
I wanted to offer up some thoughts going into this matchup. The deployment type is hammer and anvil, which generally favors tau with their long range units such as iontides and skyrays. The mission we're playing is interesting in that you need to hold at least 3 objective markers to score the one primary objective whilst you only need to win kill points by one in order obtain that primary. Fast attack units (wraiths) are also worth two kill points. Jim has last turn with necron flyers, which helps him score, but with the abnormal objective win criteria it'll be tough for him and essentially impossible for me to obtain that objective even though his wraiths are scoring. I'm going to focus on blowing out the killpoint margin as much as possible while keeping enough riptides alive to sit on objectives in the end game in order to win that way. The bastionsides will deploy in my deployment zone-this deployment style provides me optimal coverage of the table. Couple that with the fact that warscythes are the only real threat to the bastion itself and these guys will be pumping shots into wraiths all game. I'll probably dump both skyrays into the abarges turn 1-that might seem counter intuitive given the 4 scythes in Jims army, but I'll use the skyrays' markerlights later to make the broadsides and ovesa star to even the odds on the flyers. The sooner I eliminate the barges the sooner my deathstar can stubborn/shield up and tango with the wraiths. Not to say I 'want' to charge into combat, but it's an eventuality you have to confront so having a valid plan going in is really good.
Wow, you are a master at the game... Thats so fething smart.
Hope everything is going well on your end, have a lot of us looking forward to seeing how this match up turns out. You are becoming a master of suspense.
. Your posts and bat reps have been my guides to starting tyranids, which I and my teammate ran at AdeptiCon!
(we faced a few that were equal parts beautiful and brutal on the table).
Have an exalt 
on the Mishap table - they are destroyed! Now he has a decision to make. Does he use Fatey's re-roll now or save it for later. He decides to save it for later.
's to hit. 
I really cant even describe how much I have wanted you to take on Justin. Playing the Frontline guys will be great too!
