Alright, codexs are in hands, rules have been leaked, so let's talk IG! I was hoping we could try and have a big "general" thread about the new IG/AM to bounce ideas around.
To get the ball rolling, I have a question: Who or what is the "best" HQ choice?
I think the CCS is still "the best" and Creed gives a TON of options with loads of orders and two warlord traits.
I can see Creed + Tank Commander/Pask lists doin' the deed together.
The buffs to Straken are nuts. His only downside besides being more pts expensive is having to issue challenges and a smaller buff radius (12" down to 6"). However, he's ripe for deathstars, more so when you add in Space Marines or Sisters.
I feel like the true heroes are the Psykers and Priests. They are going to be EVERYWHERE in IG armies. In 1850, why would you not bring 2-3 ML 2 Psykers fishing in Divination for Misfortune?
Misfortune plus Wyverns, Medusas, and Russes all buffed with prescience to snipe buff characters out of other deathstars. I don't know if it's game breaking, but it has a shot.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here's an 1850 I could envision with just being loose with my thought process:
HQ:
Tank Commander (w/ Punisher)
+Std. Russ
+Std. Russ
Basically Psykers and Priests go in blobs. Psykers dispense buffs on the necessary units when needed. You can issue some fancy orders to your guard blobs as needed and they give some good AT to support them.
Hydras be doing what Hydras be doing in two separate units to spread out that love.
3 Wyverns?! it's so your opponent HATES you. Using them as Thudd Guns, basically. Cast prescience on the unit and use your Tank Commander to get them to split fire... vaporizing multiple units with a ton of shots.
Vendetta delivers flamer PCS squad for late game scoring and dig out anything the rest of the stuff cracks.
Divination psykers are very nice, but there are two issues with them; they need units which justify dropping buffs on and they need to be kept safe.
The AM only have a few units which have really significant firepower and benefit a lot from Prescience. Basically, you are looking at Vanquishers, Executioners and Punishers as the best candidates. The nice thing is that you can take a couple of different squadrons and assign your psykers to buff the ones you feel you need most.
As for keeping your psykers alive, you can either put them in Chimeras or hide them in a large squad of cannon-fodder. Neither is especially safe, but at least you get to choose where they go after you know what powers you have and what you are facing.
I agree that Wyrvens are going to be nasty, especially in taken in a Battery format, even moreso with the Tank Commanders ability to give them Split fire. Take one battery of these, x2 Leman Russes and you have a pretty nasty and solid core of Armor and Artillery in your army.
I'm liking the idea of running a pair of cheap CCSs for some delicious ordering goodness. A backfield CCS with MoO, four sniper rifles at 2pts and MoF seems like a reasonably cheap option that will bolster HWTs and any blobs behind an ADL, while still throwing out some hurt.
Wyverns are brutal against the right targets, but you do need to actually have something for them to shoot. With the ability to buy buildings to hide in very few light infantry units should be actually deployed outside these days. They can't really do much to vehicles or artillery and most bike units are tough enough to survive and spread out enough that you won't get many hits.
Misfortune makes them a lot better, but misfortune makes everything better.
I think that Hellhounds are still better for the ignores-cover role, thanks to their AP 4 and the ability to hit units inside buildings.
Tank commander's can only give orders to themselves. I'm liking the idea of an augur on a hellhound or tank and deepstriking a scion platoon with 4 plasma and a plasma pistol other than that I haven't given it too much thought.
TheKbob wrote: In 1850, why would you not bring 2-3 ML 2 Psykers fishing in Divination for Misfortune?
Because Inquisitors. Why pay for ablative wounds when you can just shove the guy into the back of a squad.
Inquisitors are ML 1 at best and slightly more expensive than Primaris Psykers. Inquisitors do have a lot of good options, but there's no reason you can't take both inquisitors and primaris psykers. The cost is low enough and the more rolls you have, the better your chances of getting what you want for each unit.
TheKbob wrote: In 1850, why would you not bring 2-3 ML 2 Psykers fishing in Divination for Misfortune?
Because Inquisitors. Why pay for ablative wounds when you can just shove the guy into the back of a squad.
Inquisitors are ML 1 at best and slightly more expensive than Primaris Psykers. Inquisitors do have a lot of good options, but there's no reason you can't take both inquisitors and primaris psykers. The cost is low enough and the more rolls you have, the better your chances of getting what you want for each unit.
There are two major reasons people take inquisitors. #1 Cheap divination. #2 Servo Skulls. Option 2 is well worth taking to prevent enemy infiltration and scouting. As you mentioned there is no reason you can't take inquisitors and primaris psykers, which I will probably do.
Toughness 5, 3 Wounds each and a semi-decent armour save should make them somewhat viable. If your opponent has AP 3 or better blasts, spread them out to reduce casualties. If they have lots of Heavy Bolters, Autocannons and other AP 4 stuff, clump them together to boost your armour save.
I think they could work well as a screen for Leman Russes. With their slabshields and a camo net on the tank, you can get a 3+ cover save, which is pretty good against most anti-tank. They also guard against assault units and melta-gunners and provide somewhere to hide your enginseer and/or psyker. A priest is probably compulsory if you don't take another character and not a bad choice even if you do.
The bad news is that they are a very tempting target for anyone with a Strength 10 blast weapon and they suck up a lot of points. I think that a unit of three bullgryns with an enginseer is going to cost more than another Leman Russ. Do they offer enough protection that it is better than simply taking more tanks?
Imo, they're not *terrible*, but their points cost is almost prohibitively high, and they don't really bring anything fresh to the Guard. You can already get the vastly less expensive ADL, which also comes with a interceptor/skyfire twin-linked autocannon in addition to the 4+ cover.
Well, an ADL can't follow your tanks around as you move to get better firing positions and it can't punch people who are trying to plant grenades on it.
Depending on the wording of the slabshield rule, it may be the case that the bullgryns cover save bonus stacks with the ADL. In that case, you might be able to have bullgryns going to ground behind the ADL for 2+ cover saves and providing 3+ cover (boostable to 2+ with camo netting) to vehicles behind them.
Could be some shenanigans possible with Bullgryns and camo-cloak veterans or ratlings too.
I'm surprised more people aren't talking about the new and improved Commissar Lord Yarrick. 2 orders, commissar ability, 4++, T4, EW, IC with PE:Orks (which confers to his squad fyi. S6 powerfist and can get back up from death on a 3+, infinite times. Aura of discipline as well as having a fairly awesome Warlord trait that prevents morale checks within 12".
Cerebrium wrote: I can see Armoured Sentinels being a bit of an unsung hero in the new book too, with that rather massive points cut.
PlasCannon and Lascannon Armoured Sentinels are going to be everywhere.
I don't think that Plasma Sentinels can really compete with Executioners. Two Executioners with sponsons have more firepower than three squadrons of sentinels, have much better armour, cost less and fit in one FOC instead of three, making them much easier to buff with psykers. Sentinels suffer a bit less from Gets Hot thanks to having more hull points per gun, but Prescience makes that much less of a risk while also improving the executioner's accuracy.
Lascannon Sentinels are another story. The closest tank would be a vanquisher, which has less firepower than an equivalent-points squadron of sentinels. Vendettas have twin-linked guns, but also have issues with getting in position. Heavy weapon squads can't fire accurately on the move and die to anti-personnel fire. Lascannon sentinels might have a niche.
As far as I can tell, any reference to Codex: Imperial Guard also applies to Codex: Astra Militarum, since the two terms are synonymous, just like 'Sisters of Battle' and 'Adepta Sororitas'.
As far as I can tell, any reference to Codex: Imperial Guard also applies to Codex: Astra Militarum, since the two terms are synonymous, just like 'Sisters of Battle' and 'Adepta Sororitas'.
I'm pretty excited about lascannon armored sentinels as well, especially since HWS didn't get any better. Cheap, mobile, durable. I think it's even worth throwing on HK missiles for a turn one alpha strike. That's an awful lot of turn 1 heavy weapons for 180 points.
Wyverns are also cheap enough to benefit from upgrades. 15 points buys 3 heavy stubbers that you can fire along with the hull heavy bolter and stormshard mortars if your target is in line of sight. This also helps them against the armies of low model count, spaced out units. I could actually see HK missiles on them, also. If you ran into a mostly mechanized list, you could drop your missiles turn one to help with more immediate threats than infantry. In later turns maybe it would be beneficial to use them to help finish off remnants of squads. Probably not worth 10 points per tank, but not the worst use of points. It's main guns being heavy instead of Ordnance is interesting.
I think Guard is doing better massed light armor than ever before. sentinels and wyverns are all cheap and benefit from being in squadrons, so you overcome some of the light armor vulnerability (first blood bait) with mass.
Im hoping that I can continue to use the minis that I have without having to buy much more (although some priests sound like a good idea from what ive read). Does anyone have any views on:
* whether plasma vets in a chimera are still viable or is blob guard better? In the past ive run 3x plasma vet platoons and a blob of 20 Guard
* Imperial Knights as allies? In 1500pts I was thinking of swapping out 2 Vendettas for a Paladin.
I'm going to be running two kinds of playstyles this edition I think, I'll be having Valkyrie airborne dudes with Scions and an Armoured list.
I think the toolbox CCS with OoTF and MoO or Astropath (The Astropath needs to be within 24'', the MoO wants to be still) will be a pretty good bet this Codex.
I'm quite keen on running the Pask Punisher with HB's and a heavy stubber for the hilarity of wrecking everything at 24'' with BS4, preferred enemy, shred (iirc) and rending too.
I'm still not sold on the Wyvern just yet, the Ogryns and Bullgryns are a bit meh, but I am actually very keen on getting Nork Deddog. Often my CCS takes a counter attack role when the line starts faltering (and it works way more often than it should), and Nork is ideal for that sort of action, headbutting non EW characters into oblivion and putting down the hurt on infantry while being very hard to kill without instant death or S10, neither of which are commonly found in CC.
pangloss666 wrote: Im hoping that I can continue to use the minis that I have without having to buy much more (although some priests sound like a good idea from what ive read).
You probably can. The new vehicles seem to be mostly fairly weak: the hydra is not as good as fortification quad guns, the taurox is just a cheap, weak chimera, the taurox prime is probably a waste of points. Only the Wyvern offers anything really significant, with it's cheap cover-ignoring blasts. Still not essential by any means.
Scions are a little better than the old stormtroopers, but nothing you can't live without. Bullgryns might have their uses, but conscript blobs and priests probably do the same thing better.
* whether plasma vets in a chimera are still viable or is blob guard better? In the past ive run 3x plasma vet platoons and a blob of 20 Guard
* Imperial Knights as allies? In 1500pts I was thinking of swapping out 2 Vendettas for a Paladin.
Well, the chimera went up in price and lost a firepoint, but the veteran squad went down in price (especially if you took carapace and/or camo-cloaks) and you can get cheaper dozer blades and heavy stubbers now. Overall, I think that plasma-chimera vets got a bit worse, but it depends on how you use them. If you just want to form a gunline, then blobs buffed by officers and psykers are probably the way to go. If you want a unit that moves forward onto objectives then you pretty much need to be using chimeras regardless and it's just a question of how to field a scoring unit in them and get the best value for your points... which probably means veterans and plasma guns.
Imperial Knights are pretty much always a solid choice. The only concern is if you are losing too much anti-air by removing the vendettas.
Thanks, yes i pretty much used plasma vets with no doctrines or carapace in a basic chimera to hold try and take objectives and blob to sit on them (now i could use the Knight).
From what I am reading - my codex is in the post - a good move would be to put a priest and maybe a psycher too among the blob.
I love the Vendetta models, but whenever i have used them, they come in late, fly around and do some good damage but then fly off again.
People are going to be timid about using the Vendetta now, mostly because it isn't drop-dead obvious amazing anymore.
I still think its an effective support vehicle and MC/Tank killer that will end up finding its way into some tournament builds. I think Leman Russ spam is going to be a popular build given how much they were cheapened, rightfully so given how pants on head stupidly priced the Riptide has been in comparison to our tanks.
With Chimeras only having 2 fire ports, I think Plasma Mech-Vets can be looked at in two ways:
1.) The third plasma gunner is a spare body for when one guy gets burned. In this way they have less plasma firepower, but more lasgun firepower (woo?), and don't cost any more.
2.) Instead of doing drive-bys, you do a move-disembark to put 6 plasma gun shots (that can benefit from the ignore cover order) at point blank. This approach benefits more from upgrades, like carapace armor and a Priest with plasma gun. This is a power unit that merits some Prescience love. You could reasonably get 8 re-rolling plasma gun shots that ignore cover, plus a 2 bolter and 12 lasgun shots. That probably kills a squad. The carapace armor and Priest in there (along with Prescience that is still up) make the squad super nasty to assault without a sizable dedicated assault unit, and carapace armor makes them resistant to casual shooting. I'm going to try this squad out, at least.
Just a little math (the unit is 210 points including the Chimera)
On Overwatch, with Prescience: 8 plasma shots = about 2.4 hits (call it 2). That's probably two dead charging things. The small arms probably net you another wound or two that needs to be saved. You then re-roll hits in close combat, and may get another bonus from the Priest. It's not winning the day against dedicated assault units, but it doesn't have to.
I think blobs are better also. Plasma Priests really add a lot to them. I think I'm going to run two twenty man blobs with plasma and maybe heavy weapons, each with a plasma priest. Depending on the mission and terrain, I either get a reasonably priced trio of plasma rifles with lots of ablative wounds, that takes a lot of effort to take down assault, and is fearless, or I get a 40 man, 6 plasma gun blob that is getting Prescience and orders every turn, putting out a horrific wall of plasma and lasgun fire, that will roll most units that make it into assault with it.
Priests have the downside that they make you fearless so you can't go to ground, so don't put them in units which are there to dig in and survive rather than shoot and die.
Psykers seem like a pretty good option for any infantry unit over 100 points or so. Even just giving prescience to a twenty-man block with two lascannons and two plasma guns will probably justify their points. Probably best to have a couple of different units you can put a psyker in, depending on what power you roll and what you are facing.
From a pure IG army standpoint (read; no allies or other plug ins), the Vendetta is still the best anti-air option in the book. The Hydra not gaining interceptor and simultaneously losing the ignore jinks rule was a pretty big blow to the already stale anti-air tank. Having to pay for closed top is just a drop of lemon juice in the paper cut.
Armoured sentinels getting cheaper is nice, but I have a hard time seeing anything better than the Vendetta in the FA slot for its role. Its still 3x TL Lascannons with a transport capacity (though nerfed, admittedly) and good armour all around.
I think the real winners here are the Russes. Tank commanders combined with cheaper tanks all around is definitely welcome. I'm curious what will happen to the ABG list when it gets updated to the 6th IG book rules/prices.
I'll have to wait until I'm codex in hand to really wrap my head around what will work and what won't. Still disappointed in the culling of all that arty and SCs, and the Taurox still looks awful both model and rule wise.
I am worried with the increase in price for Demolishers. The backbone of my old lists was two demolishers and four squads of vets (2 plasma and 2 melta) in chimeras. Those things got more expensive so I will be needing to really adjust what I am running now.
Yep, went from 165 to 170. They were my "vanguard" units. They roll in and punch the heavy stuff with another russ while the vets move in for clean up duty.
Yep, went from 165 to 170. They were my "vanguard" units. They roll in and punch the heavy stuff with another russ while the vets move in for clean up duty.
Well, I guess that's not awful, but probably irritating, as I imagine your list is now 10pts over.
Good news is that if you ran any other variant before, the reduction on the other variants would cancel it out, but it sounds like that's not the case for you.
Are 3x plasma/3x melta vets in chimeras the same price as before? I know the chimera went up, but didn't vets go down by too?
I don't know if Armored Sentinels really are worse than Vendettas for pure anti-tank, 3 lascannons for 150 points that start with you turn 1 is better than 3 TL lascannons for 170.
In regards to priests, remember that they're independent characters, so if you need to hunker down, you can just split him off from the squad.
Biophysical wrote: I don't know, for pure anti-tank, 3 lascannons for 150 points that start with you turn 1 is better than 3 TL lascannons for 170.
Sure, but the new OotF helps the reserve issue, and TL lascannons are always better than non-TL versions. Plus, the Vendetta only has to deal with stuff with skyfire, while the sentinels can be hit by anything.
That, and the Vendetta is still the best source of native anti-air in the book.
Yep, went from 165 to 170. They were my "vanguard" units. They roll in and punch the heavy stuff with another russ while the vets move in for clean up duty.
We can just hope that the relatively high price of ordnance russes is a sign of things to come in a possible future edition change. Maybe they will relax the restrictions on ordnance weapons, or alter their relationship with the heavy rule. I used to use a lot of ordnance tanks but they just don't seem worth it any more. The exterminator and eradicator seem really good though, as cheap hulls are a massive boon to an armour force.
I used to run a heavy weapon plus 3 meltas in the vet squad. Are we down to three fire points or two? Should I stick those three lascannons into the blob?
I used to run a heavy weapon plus 3 meltas in the vet squad. Are we down to three fire points or two? Should I stick those three lascannons into the blob?
Two firepoints (top hatch), but you shoot the lasguns from the firing ports now.
Is it funny to anyone else that now IG have the pure shooting power to get through most of the deathstars/netlists in the game right now?
Flying MCs? Dont care. We got enough shots and units
Fliers? Twinlinked/tankhunter Dont care
Death stars. twinlinked and 90 shots from one unit of leman russes, some with rending. Now on to unit two. Dont care. O that is before I ally in some space wolves for the 24inch 3+ deny bubble(go Njal)
Leth wrote: Is it funny to anyone else that now IG have the pure shooting power to get through most of the deathstars/netlists in the game right now?
Flying MCs? Dont care. We got enough shots and units
Fliers? Twinlinked/tankhunter Dont care
Death stars. twinlinked and 90 shots from one unit of leman russes, some with rending. Now on to unit two. Dont care. O that is before I ally in some space wolves for the 24inch 3+ deny bubble(go Njal)
Guard have one answer to every issue: Liberal use of overwhelming firepower.
Biophysical wrote: I don't know, for pure anti-tank, 3 lascannons for 150 points that start with you turn 1 is better than 3 TL lascannons for 170.
Sure, but the new OotF helps the reserve issue, and TL lascannons are always better than non-TL versions. Plus, the Vendetta only has to deal with stuff with skyfire, while the sentinels can be hit by anything.
That, and the Vendetta is still the best source of native anti-air in the book.
All true, I just put a pretty high value on turn 1 firepower. I just like that it's in the same ballpark, now.
Something interesting: there's actually a reason to take Elite Scions instead of Allied ones. Elites come in on one reserve roll, and can benefit from codex specific boosts.
Can anyone make a convincing argument for any of the Relics? They mostly seem not worth the price, to me. For example, I think I'd rather have a power axe than the blade of conquest, and it's 10 pts cheaper.
I'm thinking that Tank Commanders will be excellent HQ choices. One squadron of Russes with relatively short range to threaten midfield, plus another squadron mostly to hang back and sling fire, should synergize well. I'm thinking...
Punisher w/ Pask and Heavy Bolter Sponsons: 230 # This is the short-ranged Russ detachment. Main purpose is to butcher light infantry but can also crapshoot vehicles. It moves upfield.
Demolisher: 170
Vanquisher w/ Tank Commander, Multi-melta sponsons, and Hull Lascannon: 195 # This is the long-ranged Russ detachment. Main target is heavy infantry and armor. Stays back.
Executioner w/ Heavy Bolter Sponsons: 175
Inquisitor Coteaz: 100 # Coteaz hangs out with his blob of Acolytes and grants Prescience to one of the Russ squadrons
Mastery Level 1 Inquisitor w/ 2 Servo Skulls: 61 # Keep back infiltrators and grant Prescience to one of the Russ squadrons
Pask's Punisher is putting out 29 Rending shots. The Demolisher is there to be slightly up front and tank hits, and because it also has relatively short range.
The Vanquisher and Executioner are together because, while they'd prefer to split fire, they don't really have to. They're both geared toward killing heavy infantry if firing in unison, while splitting fire means that the Vanquisher can engage armored targets while the Executioner engages infantry.
Coteaz and the Inquisitor are around to kick off Prescience on both of the units. So now, you can have 4 Russes firing at 4 separate targets, all under the effects of Prescience, for a mere 161 point bump. Not bad!
For a Leman Russ squadron I actually like the following-
For heavy Anti-Infantry power-
1 Pask Punisher w/ Hull Heavy Bolter and Heavy Bolter sponsons
2x Eradicators with Heavy Bolters all around
For Anti-Vehicle power-
1x Pask Vanquisher with Lascannon
2x Exterminators with Lascannon (Or Regular Russ, BC can do damage to medium armor with the ordnance rule).
For a generalist mid-field power role-
1x Pask Punisher with Heavy Bolters
2x Exterminators with Lascannon
All of these squadrons could benefit from prescience.
I don't have the codex in my hands yet, but it seems that both mech guard and blobs got significant buffs. With the fact you can shove commisars and priests in every squad I'm starting to think blob got the better end of the deal.
l0k1 wrote: I don't have the codex in my hands yet, but it seems that both mech guard and blobs got significant buffs. With the fact you can shove commisars and priests in every squad I'm starting to think blob got the better end of the deal.
It sounds like there are some buffs at the expense of some of the cheap and cheesy things. Marbo gone, vendettas upped in price. Some people are moaning about the loss of all the tank varieties. It kind of sucks but at the same time, how many other armies have 15 different vehicles in their HS section without FW?
in house psykers are great
edit:
actually, anyone notice that marbo is on the new website. Is he still in the codex, just perhaps toned down?
So, I know it might not be practical but I was thinking hellhound with auger array and deepstriking in flamers to roast the survivors? Mostly for those units camped out in buildings whete the wyvetn cant get to them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hollismason wrote: What are the rules for Psykers they have to be attached to a squad?
The Primaris is a independent character so he can join units, but if you stick him with a commisar dont be suprised if he gets blammed. While the wyrdvanes are a unit unto themselves.
Ir0njack wrote: So, I know it might not be practical but I was thinking hellhound with auger array and deepstriking in flamers to roast the survivors? Mostly for those units camped out in buildings whete the wyvetn cant get to them.
I had an idea on that; Augur array, deep strike troops, then do the shoot+run order to spread the troops out and no invite pie plate to kill,em all come your opponent's turn sounds a good tactics to me.
Ha! I didnt even think of the order part! Drive over to a building, DS in, clear building, order, run in and use now free cover! Jex your brillant! I'm totally trying this against the wife's DE tomorrow.
On a side note,Its a shame that the hydra wont be seeing much table time. I have hands on the kit and its almost so easy to switch the weapons that you dont need magnets.
I think for the Hellhound Auger to deepstrike meltas or plasmas. I mean, you've already got the Inferno cannon right there. I hadn't thought of the shoot+run order for deep strikers. That is really nice for them. You've also got the potential to deep strike close, double tap, and then bug out a bit to make counterassaults more difficult. Even fire, then scuttle behind terrain. FRSRF is probably only really good for larger Scion squads, but isn't bad. I could really see the Split Fire order being useful, it's potentially a way to shut down a couple of tanks with one meltagun going one way and another going somewhere else. A quartet of precision special weapons from the Scion Command Squad could be cool also.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Shoot + run is also great for anybody to contest (or score) an objective. Blast the troops on the objective, run to contest or secure it.
I'm assuming the Techpriest can "Awaken the Machine" while he's embarked in a Chimera. So you give this Chimera an Augur Erray, stick the techpriest in there to continually heal it and give it a couple heavy bolter servitors for cheap additional shots to throw out. You now are buffing your Tanks while giving a mid field deep strike locator beacon equivalent that heals its self.
I've also been thinking about different ways to use Mech-Vets, and I'm wondering if there's an assault role in there.
10 vets, Sgt with power axe and pistol, Heavy Flamer + 2 flamers, 6 shotguns, carapace armor: 110
Priest: 25
Commissar w/ Power Axe: 40
Chimera: 65
Total: 240
So you flat out turn 1, move and get out turn 2, hitting a nearby enemy with 3 flame templates and a bunch of buckshot. Turn 3 you move out and start smoking objective sitters. You're not that scary to, say, Khorne berserkers, but you will beat up an awful lot of stuff, and you score.
Biophysical wrote: I've also been thinking about different ways to use Mech-Vets, and I'm wondering if there's an assault role in there.
10 vets, Sgt with power axe and pistol, Heavy Flamer + 2 flamers, 6 shotguns, carapace armor: 110
Priest: 25
Commissar w/ Power Axe: 40
Chimera: 65
Total: 240
So you flat out turn 1, move and get out turn 2, hitting a nearby enemy with 3 flame templates and a bunch of buckshot. Turn 3 you move out and start smoking objective sitters. You're not that scary to, say, Khorne berserkers, but you will beat up an awful lot of stuff, and you score.
Doesn't have a confused role, puts out an insane amount of high strength AP2. That's the only way I'd use a Priest, mostly because LD8 can be a complete pain with pinning/25% casualty checks and lose you games, and having that extra firepower is always nice.
That said, I'd maybe field max 2 of the above unit, and in conjuction with an LR group for LOS blocking cover.
Nah the priest can take a autogun or a plasmagun. I'm defiantly gonna run a unit of those vets but I want to try out foot guard more. Gonna have to kitbash me a straken to fit with my Knightworlders. So with PoTMS in, Could it be worth it to put lascannons on the vanilla LRBT? And if we have them babysitting the Russes, servitors with HB or PC? The full four, or just two for the heavy weapons?
Biophysical wrote: I've also been thinking about different ways to use Mech-Vets, and I'm wondering if there's an assault role in there.
10 vets, Sgt with power axe and pistol, Heavy Flamer + 2 flamers, 6 shotguns, carapace armor: 110
Priest: 25
Commissar w/ Power Axe: 40
Chimera: 65
Total: 240
So you flat out turn 1, move and get out turn 2, hitting a nearby enemy with 3 flame templates and a bunch of buckshot. Turn 3 you move out and start smoking objective sitters. You're not that scary to, say, Khorne berserkers, but you will beat up an awful lot of stuff, and you score.
Doesn't have a confused role, puts out an insane amount of high strength AP2. That's the only way I'd use a Priest, mostly because LD8 can be a complete pain with pinning/25% casualty checks and lose you games, and having that extra firepower is always nice.
That said, I'd maybe field max 2 of the above unit, and in conjuction with an LR group for LOS blocking cover.
Well, that's the build I suggest on the first page of the thread, and I agree that it's better overall, but sometimes assault can be a useful capability to have.
Las wrote: Wait a second... Is it just me or is pask punisher w/ an enginseer just absolutely a disgusting amount of killing power?
Nope, its pretty good. Someone has already managed to bisect a Land Raider with it, but I think that was with the favor of the dice gods. Also word will get around fast about The Pasknisher and it'll more than likely become a fire magnet. But all those shot used on him will not be used on the other guardsmen so..
Las wrote: Wait a second... Is it just me or is pask punisher w/ an enginseer just absolutely a disgusting amount of killing power?
Nope, its pretty good. Someone has already managed to bisect a Land Raider with it, but I think that was with the favor of the dice gods. Also word will get around fast about The Pasknisher and it'll more than likely become a fire magnet. But all those shot used on him will not be used on the other guardsmen so..
Good luck to all them's that try to shoot up that 14 AV front armor on turn one. With the hull points in 6th ed, people even have trouble with my chimeras, until they get their bolters on that juicy side armor that is.
as I read the rules, Power of the machine spirit reads "The vehicle can fire one more weapon at full BS than normally permitted"
If that is the case first turn I'm dropping 3x 10" Str 10, AP 1 pie plates that ignore cover....
I think the game is thoroughly broken now.
PoTMS doesn't increase the number of times a weapon can fire, only that an additional weapon on a vehicle may fire at full BS rather than snap shooting. So, for example, a Land Raider moves at combat speed, which usually would mean it can only fire one weapon at full BS, with PoTMS it can fire two weapons at full BS and the other weapons must snap fire.
I don't have the AM codex at hand, but I'm pretty sure you can't snap shoot deathstrike missiles turn one, not just because its a blast, but because you can't fire it turn one anyway (unless that's changed).
PoTMS doesn't increase the number of times a weapon can fire, only that an additional weapon on a vehicle may fire at full BS rather than snap shooting. So, for example, a Land Raider moves at combat speed, which usually would mean it can only fire one weapon at full BS, with PoTMS it can fire two weapons at full BS and the other weapons must snap fire.
I don't have the AM codex at hand, but I'm pretty sure you can't snap shoot deathstrike missiles turn one, not just because its a blast, but because you can't fire it turn one anyway (unless that's changed).
You're correct, Deathstrike still can't fire first turn and if PotMS only means you can't snapfire then as far as I'm aware there can be no turn one deathstrike shenanigans.
Ir0njack wrote: So, I know it might not be practical but I was thinking hellhound with auger array and deepstriking in flamers to roast the survivors? Mostly for those units camped out in buildings whete the wyvetn cant get to them.
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Hollismason wrote: What are the rules for Psykers they have to be attached to a squad?
The Primaris is a independent character so he can join units, but if you stick him with a commisar dont be suprised if he gets blammed. While the wyrdvanes are a unit unto themselves.
So he's a straight up IC? Does he take up a FOC, or is that another unit that is 0-3.
Basically what's the rules etc.. for Psykers , cause if he's IC... and has access to Divination?
Holy crap, if your warlord is a tank commander he gets three Really REALLY good warlord traits to pick from....Also he is pask(because why the hell not)
D3 units outflank
A unit of leman russes gets prefered enemy
or no morale tests for 25% within 12
That is pretty huge
Also that one piece of wargear that allows you to re-roll leadership tests(so you know, orders.....yea)
I am not seeing anything that prevents you from issuing the same order multiple times(so creed is gonna be more of a monster)
Lord commissars are meh now that they dont use leadership for orders anymore.
Priests are legit with that built in zealot, great for blobs(except against other blobs with all that precision shot).
Primaris lots of Prescience Easily. Cheap level 2 as well for two shots at some of the best powers in the game(4+ invul, full bs overwatch, etc) for IG.
Not sure who I would realistically use POTMS on. Still they are cheap. Maybe run a few in one unit of servitors(so they all get the buffs) and run them behind a leman russ squadron or something?
Scions platoons with the IG orders are interesting. Really depends on if you want the ally slot for something else or not.
Not a fan of the chimera, especially compared to the taurox(then again I am used to razorback/rhino chassis)
IG has access to so much divination as an easy without eating up slots that it seems like a no brainer as allies for things like knights. Also basically all of your barrage weapons are now twinlinked....Sweet jesus for all those ordanance batteries. Imagine the damage from three twin-linked basilisks. OR a manticore....jesus tank armies are gonna be ssscccaaarrryyyy. Also solves the gets hot problem on plasma variants.
Fan of bullgryns with the upgraded shield. Not only will they be big enough to give everything a save(like leman russes, throw camo on them and now they have a 3+, or behind an aegis for a 2+). Also a really powerful counter assault unit. Combine with straken for str 8 on the charge....hot stuff
Creed is looking pretty decent. Have not run the points on a lot of these units yet.
I like Yarrik for his Eternal warrior but also being an IC that can issue two orders. So he can join a blob squad and then issue them orders that they are taking on leadership 10. Throw the psykers in there and they are also testing on leadership 10 for their powers. Pretty solid IMO
The Aquila looks pretty good, not worth 60 pts and being tied to a command squad imo. But basically getting to re-roll orders might be nice. However at that point you might as well get Creed who has built in re-roll orders
Also the wording says detachment for the supplemental characters. Which means I can get three primaris psykers with a IG allied detachment.....legit
Thats all for now, but I am seeing so much potential in this book
With so much divination spam I don't think I'll be using a DA ally detachment anymore. I lose the power field generator but who cares when I have primaris psykers probably dishing out 4+ saves anyway.
Funny thought, not sure how they work yet, but have a unit of psykers rolling biomancy with a priest and a commissar running around assaulting things.
I'm also starting to warm up to the Taurox Prime. Frailty aside it seems like it might be a decent vehicle to spam for it heavy weapons.
Why can Chimeras fire at 4 different targets per turn?
Why can guard get potentially 6 Presciences up per turn?
Why does the aforementioned 6 presciences only cost 330 points?
why?
I don't know whether to fap or cry.
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l0k1 wrote: With so much divination spam I don't think I'll be using a DA ally detachment anymore. I lose the power field generator but who cares when I have primaris psykers probably didhing out 4+ saves anyway.
Funny thought, not sure how they work yet, but have a unit of psykers rolling biomancy with a priest and commissar running around assaulting things.
I'm also starting to warm up to the Taurox Prime. Frailty aside it seems like it might be a decent vehicle to spam for it heavy weapons.
l0k1 wrote: Ok, I didn't know if they got extra powers or something. Thanks.
Just have a look at how their Brotherhood of Psykers rule is written - see it says they have ML1? They basically count as one psyker for generating psychic powers.
Also I was looking at conscripts.....They might be a great answer to flying monstrous creatures.
150 points gets you 50
Get in triple tap range from order(throwing a commisar or inq in there)
150 shots 25 hits
4 wounds against t6 and 8 wounds against t5 and a grounding check.
They also make great bubble wrap. You can literally fill the board with so many bodies they cant get in melta or assault range.
Decline a challenge until you want to fail with leadership guys. Or hell get the item that allows you to choose to pass or fail for 25 points.
I think they would make great allies to an Imperial Knights army
3x knights
2x div inq with 3x servo skulls each
Tank commander with plasma and second executioner with plasma
Primaris psyker
2x 25 conscripts, or one x 50.
Got a solid body of dudes to throw your ICs in. All are testing on ld 10 for their powers. Got three shots at 4+ invul. Otherwise three presciences (which would be legit on two of the knights and one on the executioner squad)
Servo skulls to reduce scatter all over the place, especially if you go first.
Leth wrote: Also I was looking at conscripts.....They might be a great answer to flying monstrous creatures.
150 points gets you 50
Get in triple tap range from order(throwing a commisar or inq in there)
150 shots 25 hits
4 wounds against t6 and 8 wounds against t5 and a grounding check.
They also make great bubble wrap. You can literally fill the board with so many bodies they cant get in melta or assault range.
Decline a challenge until you want to fail with leadership guys. Or hell get the item that allows you to choose to pass or fail for 25 points.
I think they would make great allies to an Imperial Knights army
3x knights
2x div inq with 3x servo skulls each
Tank commander with plasma and second executioner with plasma
Primaris psyker
2x 25 conscripts, or one x 50.
Got a solid body of dudes to throw your ICs in. All are testing on ld 10 for their powers. Got three shots at 4+ invul. Otherwise three presciences (which would be legit on two of the knights and one on the executioner squad)
Servo skulls to reduce scatter all over the place, especially if you go first.
l0k1 wrote: Ok, I didn't know if they got extra powers or something. Thanks.
Just have a look at how their Brotherhood of Psykers rule is written - see it says they have ML1? They basically count as one psyker for generating psychic powers.
They might have added some sneaky special rule that gave them extra mastery lvls. Had to check. Lol :p
Leth wrote: Holy crap, if your warlord is a tank commander he gets three Really REALLY good warlord traits to pick from....Also he is pask(because why the hell not)
D3 units outflank
A unit of leman russes gets prefered enemy
or no morale tests for 25% within 12
That is pretty huge
Also that one piece of wargear that allows you to re-roll leadership tests(so you know, orders.....yea)
I am not seeing anything that prevents you from issuing the same order multiple times(so creed is gonna be more of a monster)
Lord commissars are meh now that they dont use leadership for orders anymore.
Priests are legit with that built in zealot, great for blobs(except against other blobs with all that precision shot).
Primaris lots of Prescience Easily. Cheap level 2 as well for two shots at some of the best powers in the game(4+ invul, full bs overwatch, etc) for IG.
Not sure who I would realistically use POTMS on. Still they are cheap. Maybe run a few in one unit of servitors(so they all get the buffs) and run them behind a leman russ squadron or something?
Scions platoons with the IG orders are interesting. Really depends on if you want the ally slot for something else or not.
Not a fan of the chimera, especially compared to the taurox(then again I am used to razorback/rhino chassis)
IG has access to so much divination as an easy without eating up slots that it seems like a no brainer as allies for things like knights. Also basically all of your barrage weapons are now twinlinked....Sweet jesus for all those ordanance batteries. Imagine the damage from three twin-linked basilisks. OR a manticore....jesus tank armies are gonna be ssscccaaarrryyyy. Also solves the gets hot problem on plasma variants.
Fan of bullgryns with the upgraded shield. Not only will they be big enough to give everything a save(like leman russes, throw camo on them and now they have a 3+, or behind an aegis for a 2+). Also a really powerful counter assault unit. Combine with straken for str 8 on the charge....hot stuff
Creed is looking pretty decent. Have not run the points on a lot of these units yet.
I like Yarrik for his Eternal warrior but also being an IC that can issue two orders. So he can join a blob squad and then issue them orders that they are taking on leadership 10. Throw the psykers in there and they are also testing on leadership 10 for their powers. Pretty solid IMO
The Aquila looks pretty good, not worth 60 pts and being tied to a command squad imo. But basically getting to re-roll orders might be nice. However at that point you might as well get Creed who has built in re-roll orders
Also the wording says detachment for the supplemental characters. Which means I can get three primaris psykers with a IG allied detachment.....legit
Thats all for now, but I am seeing so much potential in this book
Bullgryns+ Leman Russ Tanks + Allied Dark Angel Land Speeder Shroud?
2+ cover saves on Leman Russ Tanks, consistently. Hmm.
Has anyone noticed that a pask punisher is now one of if not the best anti tank in the game?
With PotMS you can even have the pask punisher cannon fire at a tank and have the HB and the other punishers in the unit fire at infantry. You can even TL the unit for 50 pts.
The chimera fire ports is actually a buff against FMC lists. You now can target 3 FMC a turn with a single chimera to force more grounding checks. You can also buff a single unit to do so.
The new orders are huge. Vox didn't get better but now getting an order off reliably became both harder (lord commissar doesn't give his Ld to all units within range for orders) and much more important as the orders are vastly more powerful.
All the major list types took huge leaps toward becoming more viable and more interesting.
Infantry gained the damage potential to actually matter through orders and powers.
Mechanized cost about the same overall but gained more grounding chances, psychic powers, tank commanders, and PotMS. They even gained their own orders.
Even aircav, though it became more expensive, the actual contents of the planes became much better and more damaging. The units to put down on the board for first turn also got much better.
I am even seeing where ogryn in a priest + primaris star could be really interesting.
Picked up the codex today. There's a lot to like, and it will definitely be changing my play style which is both good and bad. I see myself using a ton of infantry this time around which will be a bit of a hassle, but I have a ton of painted guardsmen and a bunch of Russes that didn't see the table as much as they should have. The Primaris Psyker also sticks out to me. Not quite as good as an Inquisitor when left vanilla, but when you make him ML2 there is a guaranteed prescience roll and plenty of other goodies in divination. If you run 3 of them you are getting 6 shots at a 4++ for a blob (I like my odds there). Eat your heart out Azrael.
I also never used Yarrick in the past, and I may not be seeing all the angles, but for less than the price of a Vanilla Russ you get a nigh invincible IC warlord that can order your blob around without getting picked off because he's in a 5 man squad. Seems legit to me...
Please bring me back to earth if I'm blowing things out of proportion out of "new codex joy" haha.
DA gives you Azrael and a ML2 Libby with a force axe.
HQ of some description 3 ML 2 Primaris Psykers 10 Bulgryns with the grande launcher and slabshield
30 wounds at T5 2+4+ with FNP and IWND, 10 Small blasts to shoot at close range, 41 S5 attacks on the charge with prescience, 12 S4AP2 and 4 S5AP2 attacks as well as Azrael's knocks, and whatever HQ you get for guard. If you're feeling really frisky, throw in ministorium priest for re-rolls so you can focus on getting endurance, and 3 engineseers because 9 extra S4AP2 atacks.
Probably won't be the netlist, but it's food for thought.
Well now that you can get 3 Level 2 Psykers with Divination and they're able to attach themselves to squads. That's not...good. I mean I may be wrong but if it's a IC then it can attach itself to a Space Marine Squad correct, for example Grav Centurions.
Combined with orders the TL will really blow up the use of even basic lasguns. 50 conscripts isn't normally scary but when TL, precision shot, and possibly ignore cover it gets scary.
Blobs can make a serious come back with priests like they are.
As for allied SM grav stars even 3 Lv2 primaris Psyker tigy is far superior and cheaper.
I was a bit dissappointed at the loss of the colossus but what we have gained has made up for it. I think I will be rocking plasma blobs and lots of tanks and psykers. Getting access to divination was huge. The only real pity was the final nail in the coffin of the ordnance russes.
EmilCrane wrote: I was a bit dissappointed at the loss of the colossus but what we have gained has made up for it. I think I will be rocking plasma blobs and lots of tanks and psykers. Getting access to divination was huge. The only real pity was the final nail in the coffin of the ordnance russes.
You haven't lost it, just buy the forgeworld book. Most older opponents will allow it, since the model was in normal 40k.
EmilCrane wrote: I was a bit dissappointed at the loss of the colossus but what we have gained has made up for it. I think I will be rocking plasma blobs and lots of tanks and psykers. Getting access to divination was huge. The only real pity was the final nail in the coffin of the ordnance russes.
You haven't lost it, just buy the forgeworld book. Most older opponents will allow it, since the model was in normal 40k.
I never really used them, I stopped playing guard after a run of bad luck and switched to marines for a while. Definitely going to go back now. But I'm just sad to see options leaving the codex. Also one of our other local guard players swears by them so he will probably be upset at their loss, forge world is fine here but neither he or I has the money for IA:1 at the moment.
I kinda like the astropath, he's cheap enough to take as a nice-to-have but has the potential to really ruin someone's day if they come around hunting for your warlord.
easysauce wrote: marbo is being released in the catachan data slate that will be out soon.
Any source or quote on that?
Yeah, where'd you get that nugget?
EDIT:
I really don't see Pask in a Punisher being the new hotness for 1 reason: 24" range. There's a lot of things with a greater than 24" range that will be zeroing in on that tank.
easysauce wrote: marbo is being released in the catachan data slate that will be out soon.
Any source or quote on that?
Yeah, where'd you get that nugget?
EDIT:
I really don't see Pask in a Punisher being the new hotness for 1 reason: 24" range. There's a lot of things with a greater than 24" range that will be zeroing in on that tank.
easysauce wrote: marbo is being released in the catachan data slate that will be out soon.
Any source or quote on that?
Yeah, where'd you get that nugget?
EDIT:
I really don't see Pask in a Punisher being the new hotness for 1 reason: 24" range. There's a lot of things with a greater than 24" range that will be zeroing in on that tank.
Las wrote: Why is pask in a punisher a drawback at 24" range when he can rock a 4+ cover all day with camo nets, a smoke launcher and the move-shoot-smoke order?
Pask 420
Because my Vanquishers will be shooting at him turn one and out ranging him all day long. He is a killy tank, you just have to be able to deliver him.
I now have the codex in my sweaty mitts, and my initial attempt at a 1500pt list would be:
HQ CCS (4 meltas) in a chimera - the CCS would sit at the back, ideally in cover inside the Chimera. That said I'm drawn to swapping them for Creed
PLT
10 grenadier Vets (4 plasma) w priest (plasma pistol) in a chimera
10 grenadier Vets (4 plasma) w priest (plasma pistol) in a chimera
PCS (4 plasma) with Psyker and 3 platoons each with an autocannon and plasmagun
HS 1 Leman Russ
ALLIES
Imperial Knight Paladin - either sit on an objective or try and dislodge one
The Knight is obviously a lot of points, but if I replaced him it would either be with 2 Vendettas (which Ive always found a bit hit and miss) or 2 more Russ (possibly upgraded), but i'm more sold on the IK
pangloss666 wrote: I now have the codex in my sweaty mitts, and my initial attempt at a 1500pt list would be:
HQ CCS (4 meltas) in a chimera - the CCS would sit at the back, ideally in cover inside the Chimera. That said I'm drawn to swapping them for Creed
PLT
10 grenadier Vets (4 plasma) w priest (plasma pistol) in a chimera
10 grenadier Vets (4 plasma) w priest (plasma pistol) in a chimera
PCS (4 plasma) with Psyker and 3 platoons each with an autocannon and plasmagun
HS 1 Leman Russ
ALLIES
Imperial Knight Paladin - either sit on an objective or try and dislodge one
The Knight is obviously a lot of points, but if I replaced him it would either be with 2 Vendettas (which Ive always found a bit hit and miss) or 2 more Russ (possibly upgraded), but i'm more sold on the IK
Not a fan of the plasma on the PCS. I'd still stick with 4 flamers. Just me.
Plus it gives you 40 points to put to the Russ. Which brings me to my next point.
1 Russ will not last long, normally. Having that IK might keep it safe for a few more turns as they focus on the IK instead.
Yeah, I thought that about the Russ, but im tight with the points. Maybe I could drop the Russ for a Vendetta? or even 3 armoured walkers with lascannons
So...
If I want to use Scion specific orders, I must take Scions as allied detachment, right?
Otherwise, Scions can be taken as Elite for IG and can use commands from C:AM, right?
Damn, they should be able to use their own commands without need to ally. On the other hand, allied Tempestus detachment gives IC commisars...
Seems like this codex is now getting a pretty good reception, then. ALthough the loss of units does hurt, I suppose everything else getting better makes up for it from a tactical points of view, if not from a fluff one.
Are conscripts still brought as part of platoons, or are they their own entry now. Because if they can go solo, then we get even cheaper and better scoring blobs (20 infantry is 100 minimum, and a PCS, 20 conscripts+Commissar is 85). If they are part of platoons, it still means we have plenty of leeway to use the Infantry in a more attacking role with dime-a-dozen conscripts sitting back.
I think one thing that might be worth playing with is a Dragoon-style mech list. Now the Chimera is hurt by loss of fire points, perhaps the best option is to move up+flat out, the move and disembark at point blank range with several squads and deliver a mass melta/plasma salvo. Next turn, get back in, rinse and repeat. Realistically you're only getting to do this 2-3 times per game, but with multiple squads it could be pretty neat. You could also put augurs on the Chimeras and bring in some Scions to add to the initial punch, and then have the Vets rejoin the rest of your army for the second attack, essentially ensuring they're supported each time.
The reduction of Fire Points severely limits the usefulness of a gun-based CCS (you can't use them like above as they don't have the ablative wounds), so are people seeing them in a more supporting/command role, using the Regimental Standard (assuming it's still the same) to bolster the staying power of a gunline? Or is that outclassed by cheap Commissars? Is there a place for CCS these days, given that LCs do their leadership role better (and Yarrik gets orders, to boot) and Command Russes clearly outshine a Chimera-based CCS?
I've been doing the "pop and drop" since 5th edition (where you flat out chimeras up to range then everyone gets out and slaughters the enemy) so I should be able to adjust to the changes to mech pretty easily. For added bonus use your chimeras to block LOS to your vets and separate the parts of your enemy's force that you're murdering from the rest. That said I think the CCS is going to be best used as a support unit, banner, orders, toolbox commander.
EDIT: Posted in the wrong thread but its still relevant...
Paradigm wrote: Is there a place for CCS these days, given that LCs do their leadership role better (and Yarrik gets orders, to boot) and Command Russes clearly outshine a Chimera-based CCS?
The Senior Officer orders alone make them worth considering and regimental advisors are still very nice.
Paradigm wrote: Is there a place for CCS these days, given that LCs do their leadership role better (and Yarrik gets orders, to boot) and Command Russes clearly outshine a Chimera-based CCS?
The Senior Officer orders alone make them worth considering and regimental advisors are still very nice.
True, those orders are very nice. I thing there's still some merit to the Standard+Lascannon+advisors-to-taste setup, but I think the gunboat CCS is probably dead, moving them to a support role. Bearing in mind two of the Warlord traits actually buff those orders that's good as well.
I think they'll need Carapace if on foot, especially now it's so much cheaper. Maybe even swap the LC for a mortar to be able to hide out of LOS.
I think Yarrick is the clear winner for HQ characters, though. He basically combines a souped up Lord Commissar and a CCS, while being able to hide in a blob and dish out more bonuses, as well as being hard to put down.
Pask in Vanquisher with LC/MM sponsons
2x Eradicators
Pask makes the best of his S8/9 shooting, ordering G,KoS while the eradicators deal with an infantry unit of some descript - they could comfortably net first blood for me against the right enemy (not MEQ, although they could do that) while my pask takes on some armour or knocks a wound off a riptide. It seems like a balanced unit that can deal with a lot of targets reliably.
Replace Eradicators with exterminators as you wish.
I think that this would be a better idea. With eradicators, you are wasting a lot of fire if you fail your order check. Exterminators have a better cross over with the vanquisher, both being good against light/medium vehicles and fliers.
I think that this would be a better idea. With eradicators, you are wasting a lot of fire if you fail your order check. Exterminators have a better cross over with the vanquisher, both being good against light/medium vehicles and fliers.
It's touch and go for me. I'm more inclined to risk that 9% chance that I feth it up, than have more middling firepower to make me reliably effective should I fail a leadership check. But, I guess that's because I hate S7AP4 as a class of weapon.
Having read the book, it seems that camo-netting and slabshields do stack with each other and any other effect which offers a bonus to cover saves, so it's pretty easy to get 3+ cover on your vehicles.
I really like the look of the Hot Shot Volly Gun, they seem to have good profiles at strength 4 AP 3. What do we think of these, could we have a command squad of 4 of these things, putting out 16 Str 4 TLAP 3 shots with prescience, that should kill 5/6 MEQ's a turn shouldn't it?
I am grinning at the idea of sticking a CCS and a Primaris near some Lascannon HWS and making them twin-linked and Ignoring cover. Could even throw a cheap commissar on the HWS just to make sure the orders are going off.
Reading the codex a bit more, I think Im going to run one of two lists at 1500pts
HQ CCS (4 meltas) in a Chimera
TROOPS
10 Veterans - grenadiers (3 plasma) in a Chimera plus a priest w plasma
10 Veterans - grenadiers (3 plasma) in a Chimera plus a priest w plasma
PCS (4 flamers) and 3 platoons (autocannon and plasma) with a Psyker
FA armoured sentinel w lascannon - ideally keep in cover and just use as a lascannon platform
HS Hydra
Hydra
ALLIES
Imperial Knight Paladin
OR
HQ CCS (4 melta) - OR Creed
TROOPS
10 Veterans - grenadiers (3 plasma), Chimera, priest w plasma
10 Veterans - grenadiers (3 plasma), Chimera, Priest w plasma
PCS (4 flamers), 2 platoons w autocannon & plasma
10 Guard w autocannon & plasma
Primaris Psyker
HS leman russ (w lascannon)
leman russ (w lascannon)
Las wrote: Why is pask in a punisher a drawback at 24" range when he can rock a 4+ cover all day with camo nets, a smoke launcher and the move-shoot-smoke order?
Pask 420
Because my Vanquishers will be shooting at him turn one and out ranging him all day long. He is a killy tank, you just have to be able to deliver him.
You're assuming a lot of variables aren't in effect here. There's LOS and the rest of both of our armies also in play.
So, I was skimming though the codex just now and I noticed that some folks are talking about Bullgryns with a 4+ re-rolls when we stick em with a preist, but with the slab shield and being in base contact it would be 3+ re-rolls. Are folks just not planning to run them in base contact with each other? At the same cost as a heavy weapons team per head but with S5 T5 W3 Sv 3+ providing mobile cover I don't think they are as bad as some folks made them out to be in the rumors thread.
They are really starting to grow on me, I think the Crimson Cavaliers might be getting a Bullgryn phalanx soon enough.
DaddyWarcrimes wrote: I'd love to see a phalanx of T5 models packed together in base to base so I can double out six or eight of them with one Demolisher she'll.
I'm sure you would but I don't think you would be getting six or eight, maybe four or five considering they use larger bases. You also have to take into account cover, they're not bikers so I doubt anyone will be running them up field without it. Also to top it all off you might well lose your Demolisher in a counter stroke. There are a lot of variables to be taken into account and by no means are the Bullgryns a new super unit but it's not quite so cut and dry. I think they are just a interesting and fun new niche unit.
DaddyWarcrimes wrote: I'd love to see a phalanx of T5 models packed together in base to base so I can double out six or eight of them with one Demolisher she'll.
Also they only need to be in base to base with ONE other model. So each one would be touching one other dude. So you might get two? especially if they are maxing out spacing.
Was anyone saying that Bullgryns were going to be rubbish? I only saw complaints about ogryn, who did turn out to be ridiculously overcosted.
I think the Militarum will be a much more complicated army to play than the old Guard was, more like Tau or Eldar, but slow moving and tough. You need a selection of specialised units and support units which can bolster the things you need at any given moment, then switch to powering up something else as you select a new target.
I think with the option of taking priests, the option of taking more divination psykers all of which do not require a FOC purchase pretty much makes the army more viable than it did before.
It got a ton of buffs, I'm more interested in how this interacts with Space Marines, specifically when you start allying in Space Marines w/ Bikes etc...
I kind of think that the heavy builds like before will rely on rerollables, forcing rerollables, ignoring cover, all while taking advantage of Battle Brothers, Imperial Knights along with Space Marines.
It lost a lot but now it just seems like even more than before a combination of Imperial Forces seems to be the way to "tip " scales in competitive.
The way I am reading Pask on PG 59, Rending is not conferred to the heavy bolter sponsons or other guns on the Leman Russ.
"Furthermore, the turret-mounted weapon on Pask's vehicle gains an additional benefit depending on its type:"
That is weapon singular.
"An exterminator autocannon or punisher gatling cannon fired by Pask has the Rending special rule."
Just the gatling cannon. So that is just 20 rending shots. The heavy bolters and other guns on the Russ are not rending. It clearly states in the rule only applies to the turret mounted weapon so it is only 20 rending shots and not the 32 other people were talking about.
For the pask in leman russ squads I would seriously consider 2 leman russ' and pask, 1 primaris prescience slave, and 2 techpriests. That way you either pass you get 2 ablative leman russ' and can maximize prescience on 3 leman russ' with a single psyker. You use the order first and if it fails you use the tech priests to split pasks' main weapon off to it's ideal target and one of the other russ' main weapons. Just get HBs on the sponsons and an anti infantry on the 3rd russ' main weapon. This would make the ideal situation 3 TL russ' firing at 4 different targets and the worst case would be 3 different targets with some possible anti infantry overkill.
What are people's opinions on the Militarum Tempestus codex/suppliment? I've always wanted to run Storm Troopers (guess they're called Scion now), but last dex they were pretty crappy. Are they finally god enough to be run as troops now?
I have a question about how people are going to be getting their prescience slaves around with their Russes? Are you going to keep your tanks mobile or stationary? Are you prescience slaves just going to walk along with the tank?
Not having a copy in hand yet,but after reading over several reviews,,,something I am pondering,is including an astropath in my ccs with telepathy ,plan being to use puppet master when folks show up with knight titans,,,aim at another unit close by and hope to flob the distance roll so it lands back on the knight itself,,,or use it against fliers or any other big nasty things,,,,so for 30pts you could take out 10xs the points.
alarmingrick wrote: I have a question about how people are going to be getting their prescience slaves around with their Russes? Are you going to keep your tanks mobile or stationary? Are you prescience slaves just going to walk along with the tank?
Tank squadrons are probably going to need 'bubble wrap' units to protect them from short-ranged anti-tank, like fusion crisis suits, deep striking melta squads, grav bikers and so on. Might as well just stick the psyker in with them. The LR is slow enough that you can keep up with it by walking. I'd go with a small squad of Bullgryn and a 20-man conscript block, I think. Psyker and Priest with the Bullgryn, Commissar with the conscripts.
I have been seeing lists with Pask and a second tank commander, I think that this is a mistake. You are not getting what you pay for with the tank commander, as you do not get his warlord trait. You are also locking yourself out of getting a CCS, with the good orders and access to an OoF and astropath. It just seems like a waste just for bs4 on a single tank, which is forced to squadron. It would be better to take a couple of single russes than a second commander.
The following is written up to go over the new AM codex specifically focusing on how this codex is different from the old codex. A separate article discussing what the codex is like absolutely - independent from its past - will be forthcoming.
Fluff
Before getting into the meat, let me touch on the fluff a bit. GW decided to give IG a name change, but then treated it very, very softly (probably knowing the level of nerdrage it will produce). It's still called the Imperial Guard in many places, they're still called guardsmen, etc. It seems more of a formal name change, but that's it. Probably just to get people used to the idea for the next codex.
Anyways, the fluff itself is pretty crummy, and, interestingly enough, is crummy in the exact same way that it's been making crummy fluff in all of the codices over the last year and a half. They did add a bit of new stuff, but they also completely forgot to include some pretty important bits of the old fluff. They also savagely hacked down some other parts as well. Just as they basically forgot to include legions in the CSM codex, they took away all of the fluff of the various armies save cadians and catachan. Everyone else got a one-sentence blurb. They also cut down a lot of fluff for the units as well, several entries that once had full-page spreads got hacked down to a paragraph.
Probably the biggest problem, though, is style, which is another problem they've been having. They're defining, rather than describing. Almost all of the wit and sparkle is gone from the language. It's about as entertaining as reading a user manual now. More like a reluctant child being forced to write an essay for their homework while they'd rather be playing outside than a labor of love.
Also, the orange cadians are kind of obnoxious.
Warlord Traits
The new warlord traits are interesting, but, being warlord traits, are random, and that's what really kills it. Being able to outflank units or give orders to a model who doesn't get them is nice, but they're SO disparate, that you can't really make any kind of strategy around them. In the CSM codex, for example, they're more or less all based around close combat, but here they're very far apart. Because of this, I almost think I'd still use book traits rather than the new ones for general play.
The main purpose of them, it seems, is to give out certain warlord traits to special characters, which is where I'd look favorably on them. The traits are good, but it's the randomness that's the problem. Take out the randomness, and you take out the problem.
The other things to note are that the warlord traits seems to strongly favor lord commissars as there's a 1/3rd chance that he gets to use orders (and those same warlord traits are much less useful for a warlord who can already issue them). Also, the tank commander is interesting as you only need roll on the top three. That means you have a 2/3ds chance of getting one of the two best traits for the commander. But it's still one of the best traits, you don't know which.
I feel like there is plenty of times when you're going to step on your own toes with warlord traits, like doing things to boost your leadership, and then getting the "don't worry about morale" one. A 1/6 chance isn't good enough to NOT take standards, priests, and commissars, but there is a 1/6 chance that a lot of their usefulness will get pushed aside.
Orders
Orders are much the same as they were, but did get a few structural tweaks. Inspired tactics makes all orders auto-pass instead of an extra order. Receiving an order no longer prevents an officer from giving one. You no longer need to follow the chain of command with orders, and you no longer need line of sight from both the officer and the receiving unit for orders like fire on my target. Otherwise, it's the same, including some annoying things like an officer still not being able to give orders to his own unit if they're in a transport, and voxes still being the same.
Orders themselves got a bit stronger. Fire on my target now just flat ignores cover and bring it down gives hunters rule (so heavy bolters now might have a use as an anti-MC weapon?). There are new orders that confer a special rule to a shooting attack like pinning, and split fire. I don't imagine using these that often, but they're nice to have.
The two things I'd note are that while incoming is gone, they replaced it with al'rahem's like the wind, which was easily my favorite order of the old codex. That and one of those special rule orders is precise shot. As far as I'm concerned, guard squads can now be ordered to use sniper rifles against non-MCs. Either by getting a ton of them through mass lasgun fire, or one or two but with special weapons goodness, you can all but guarantee that your opponent doesn't get to use hidden anything. Not that you could properly hide upgrades in 6th edition anyways, but you certainly can't against guard anymore. It should be reasonably trivial for a guard player to ensure that whatever they're shooting at doesn't have special or heavy weapons next turn, and possibly doesn't have a sergeant either.
Upgrades
Most annoyingly, they made generic weapon upgrades more expensive. Plasma pistols and power weapons got a nonsensical price hike, and powerfists got much more expensive. I guess guardsmen were too good in close combat...
Special and heavy weapons look the same, except for a merciful price drop in sniper rifles and, continuing the trend, grossly overpriced flakk missiles. Vehicle upgrades were largely the same, except they all got universally cheaper, which means that rather than none of them being worth taking, now they're all worth taking. The price drop for heavy stubbers now makes me actually consider taking them. They did get two new upgrades that are particularly intriguing. They also got an upgrade that gives them a one-shot overwatch (that's a little bit pricey... maybe), and their track guards were equipped with a worse version that lets you auto-repair immobilized results like a rhino.
The one thing that they got that's VERY interesting is a teleport homer, which is odd because they've been doing a decent job of scouring these from all the rest of the codices. Now guard, of all armies, has access to scatterless deepstriking, and on any vehicle. I find this strange, but I can also imagine that this will see a lot of use. Not that the guard has that much of interest to deepstrike, but the beacon also works on allies, which means scatterless terminators or vanguard vets, or whatever.
To my delight, guard also got relics. There's nothing that stands out as a must-have, but they have some nice spice that you can add to change things up a bit. I like the one that turns your officer into Calgar where he can just decide if people fail morale or not with the consequences of everybody getting pinned when he dies (which seems likely, given how fragile CCSs still are), and there's the mask of beatstick +1 that's kind of nice as well. Nothing particularly outrageous or powerful, but interesting nonetheless.
CCS
Not much to say, the CCS is the CCS. It got a little bit more expensive to reflect its slightly better orders. This is somewhat offset by advisers being different.
Lord Commissar
This is also much the same, getting a slight price drop because they're not quite as good and their wargear became more expensive. They gained a special rule where you can't take them as your warlord if there's a senior officer also in your army, and, much more importantly, aura of discipline now ONLY works for morale and morale-like tests. You can no longer cast a Ld10 bubble of accept orders better.
I'll also use this spot to talk about the same to summary execution. Honestly, the old version of the rule left a better flavor in my mouth, what with the at the first sign of trouble, the commissar instantly shoots whoever looks like they should have been in command of the situation. The new rule is much softer and friendlier. Firstly, they fixed it so that now summary execution kicks in AFTER rerolls (so it can work with a regimental standard now). Also, it no longer zaps the highest leadership model, which means you can actually include commissars in a CCS without feeling stupid. It's also, curiously enough, no longer mandatory, which means that you can choose to be soft and fuzzy and not kill anyone if you don't want to. The way you choose who gets killed is a cute mechanic, though.
The one really important thing to note about summary execution is that they lifted the prohibition against one commissar shooting another. Now that there's a chance that your opponent can pick a model to get the bolt to the brain, this is important if you have two commissars in the same squad.
Commissars
These guys got a price drop, mostly commensurate with the increased cost of wargear - a fancy weapon being necessary as they're no longer the best leadership buff. They also got returned to their adviser role. Rather than being a unit upgrade, you can now take a certain number in your army (based on the number of officers), and then you dole them out like independent characters, except they're not independent, so they're stuck with the squad.
This means that you're likely to have rather fewer of them in your army than you could before. It also hurts blobs (like they needed it) because it's now basically impossible to double up on commissars in a blob, which means all those 6th ed rules that make commissars vulnerable make blobs even moreso now that you can't take out insurance policies in the form of extra commissars. Even if you could, they now have an explicit rule stating that no more than one regular commissar can join a squad (and that joining happens AFTER you choose if you're using combined squads or not).
There is one main difference, though, other than that their summary execution became friendlier, and that is that regular commissars can now take powerfists. They're still vulnerable, and powerfists are still way too expensive, but you can take them.
Master of Ordnance
No different whatsoever. The only change is a price drop.
Officer of the Fleet
The officer of the fleet still retains its old ability, but also gained the ability of the astropath, so the "reserves advisor" is now just a single model (who also got cheaper). The only catch is that you can do one or the other, and not both. They stack now, though, so there's that. At least it's not just that one ability that was on all the time that actually helped certain armies rather than hurt them.
The one interesting thing is that, as per a new trend, their ability only goes on if they successfully pass a leadership test. There is a lot of stuff that works this way in the guard codex, from orders to psychic powers, to the officer of the fleet, to priests and techpriests. The idea is that you have some very neat little abilities that provide nice buffs in a versatile way... but they're nearly as likely to fail to go off as to succeed. As such, all of these things are nice, but not something to get too carried away with, as they're just so unreliable.
Astropaths
Now they're just a level one psyker with telepathy. Note that this is the only place in the codex where you can take this ability.
Priests
THEY GOT RID OF EVISCERATORS!!! BOOOOOO!!! There is no balm that can soothe this rage-filled wound. They should have at least given them the option, even if it was ridiculously priced (I'd still consider buying them if they were 50 points apiece if for rule of cool alone).
But it's time to be calm, and look at what priests do now, as they have several changes. Priests are absurdly cheap now. You can only take up to 3, but what you get for 75 points makes them almost, dare I say it, an auto-include. Because for pittance, you get a lot.
The first thing they get is a replacement of their old hatred rule with zelot. That means that they still have hatred, but they now also have fearless. I'm just going to let that soak in for a moment. Three independent character sources of fearless that can move around to wherever they're needed. This is enormous.
Not only does it mean that you sort of don't need to care about morale with key units anymore, but it makes a big step towards making blobs not stupid anymore. Fearless is just straight better than stubborn (and priests won't execute sergeants like commissars used to), and with a 4++ and a 2+ LoS! you might actually be able to keep fearless on them, unlike a commissar with its 4+ LoS! and flak armor. It doesn't single-handedly save blobs, who also have other serious issues like the by-model cover save rules and wound allocation, but it's a sweet odor nonetheless.
The second big change is that they became even better at buffing close combat, as if hatred and fearless weren't already enough. Now they have "priest orders" where if they pass a (crummy) leadership test, they get to choose one of three things to give the squad that little extra bite. One choice is to let you reroll failed armor saves (in close combat only), and to give the squad shred (likewise), and the other is to give the priest himself smash. On the one hand, this does something to ameliorate the loss of the eviscerator, as it gives the priest a source of S6 Ap2. It's at initiative, but it also lacks armorbane, which is still very sad. On the plus side, though, smash just turns him into an Ap2 monster of sorts, getting 4 S3 I3 Ap2 rerollable attacks on the charge. For a very, very modest price tag.
It makes it so that you're no more likely to get into close combat in the first place, but it means that if you do somehow manage to make it there, at least you'll be doing more damage. Also, an important thing to note - priest finally work on ogryn. Give that a thought or two. A bullgryn squad with three priests...
The third change they made is giving the priest the ability to take a plasma gun. An independent character with a plasma gun. You want 0-3 extra plasma guns in any squad? Done. That would be good enough in and of itself without the fearless and close combat buffs. How they thought 25 points was an appropriate price for this unit escapes me.
Primaris Psykers
They also, surprise surprise, got a price drop. They are no longer a stand-alone HQ choice though, but instead work like priests. They also lost codex powers, being merely book power units.
Of course, that loss, and the loss of telepathy, was more than made up for by the fact that they now have access to divination. Just as I can imagine a bunch of armies spamming priests to get army-wide fearless, I can easily imagine all high-power guard armies spamming these to get army-wide prescience. That and fishing for allowing russes to ignore cover saves, fishing for blobs and russ squadrons to get a 4++, fishing for blobs to get foreboding, and generally just trying to throw around misfortune.
Expect to see a lot of these.
Techpriest Enginseers
These were one of the worst units in the whole game, and I'm glad to see that they were plucked from "never use" to "probably don't use".
To continue the trend that all of these advisers have been taking, they got cheaper, and they got better. They still have the low-chance fix-it power that they did before, but now they have the ability to use "techpriest orders", their one order being to temporarily give a unit power of the machine spirit. The "free" extra armor is nice, but most of what this will be used for is to give squadrons of leman russes split fire. I don't know if it's quite worth the price for this, but given that it has both that and the fix, it's starting to become a better buff unit.
Two other things to note. Firstly, the servo harness changed. Techpriests now just have a powerfist, rather than their regular weapons and a free powerfist attack, making them stronger in close combat. Secondly, you can now take squads of servitors just on their own (per techpriest). They suffer from mindlock, but they don't need to follow the priest around. This means that you can make a tiny two-plasma-cannon heavy weapons squad for only 50 points. Of course, they're super fragile and might mindlock, but it is pretty cheap, assuming you're already bringing a techpriest.
Tank Commander
Treadheads rejoice! A squad of leman russes as your HQ!
On the surface, this doesn't actually mean that much. Really, it's more that you're removing the HQ tax for running an armored company (you still need to take mechvets, though. The tank commander doesn't make russes troops). The commander does get "tank orders" though, which are like the adviser orders of a passed leadership test allowing him to buff his tank command squad. Nothing fancy, so much as just alleviating some of the problems that you get with big squads of russes (like giving them split fire, and allowing them to move more than 6").
Nothing too powerful, but it's also really cheap. A nice, fluffy choice for treadheads.
The only big thing it will affect is allies, as it's now possible to bring a squad of 3 russes as an HQ choice and a squad of 3 russes as an HS choice, effectively allowing other armies to ally in a guard armored company.
Infantry Platoons
These remained virtually unchanged. They fixed the typo where special weapons squads didn't get frag grenades, and they use the new prices for plasma pistols, sniper rifles, and the like, but that's it. That, and like everywhere else, they can now take a chimera or taurox.
The only thing particularly interesting about them is conscripts. Conscripts lost SitNW! which is pretty much what made conscripts worth taking in the first place. No more permanent scoring unit. There are only two things that ameliorate this. The first is that conscripts now cost THREE POINTS apiece. Say hello to the cheapest, crappiest infantry in 40k, gentlemen.
The other difference is now you can assign them commissars and new priests. This makes conscripts an alternative to infantry squad blobs. They now stand a reasonable chance of taking orders, which means 150 points becomes 100 lasgun shots with precision strike, or 150 lasgun shots with first rank fire. It also means 150 points for 50 fearless bodies with the possibility of twin-linking or a 4++. Put another way, it is now possible to buff conscripts up to the point of being useful in their own right.
Veterans
A great reason for why you should never believe in rumors, veterans wound up being exactly the same, except they got a little bit cheaper (especially in doctrines). Their base price is the same if you re-buy krak grenades, but if you didn't want them anyways, then veterans are just straight cheaper.
Mechvets were very strong last codex, and thankfully they decided to handle this by fixing the chimera, rather than screwing up vets.
Chimera
Speaking of, this tank basically reverted to what it was before the previous codex came out. Its price went back up, its hatch went back down to 2 models firing from it, and the side lasgun ports went back to being side lasgun ports. The only real difference is that the banks of lasguns can now fire completely independently of the chimera or the crew, and they're no longer stuck with a limited side-armor firing arc. In any case, chimeras got returned to being reasonable again, which is fine by me.
The one other thing to note, though, is that because a chimera and the squad inside can now fire at four different targets, it is theoretically possible to force grounding tests on four different flying monstrous creatures simultaneously, if that situation somehow ever comes up.
Taurox
A new edition to the codex, and, sad to say, a pretty weak one. And not just because it has an ugly model.
For some reason, someone at GW looked at imperial guard and decided that what we need is rhinos. We don't. We have chimeras. There's pretty much no reason to take a taurox over a chimera.
The taurox prime does get fast, but it still has that crappy armor and lower troop carrying capacity. In a way, the taurox prime looked like an attempt at giving guard a razorback, but this failed miserably, as the taurox's weapons are crummy. A small blast autocannon? A missile launcher? The gatling gun isn't SO bad, but with low S and no Ap... well, it's just not a punisher cannon, and it's not mounted to the much more fearsome russ chassis, or have the option of taking anti-tank weapons as well. If someone wanted firepower, I think a chimera would still be better, as I'd take 6 shots against 10 if it meant +1S, and Ap4.
Maybe I can see their use as part of a bigger rush strategy (like with a bunch of hellhounds where everything charges turn 1), but even then... fast just isn't as good as AV12, especially when you consider that tauroxes are more expensive, both moneywise and in points than a chimera.
Ogryn
Regular ogryn are almost exactly the same. They lost furious charge in favor of hammer of wrath, which gives them a slightly different damage profile.
The only real gripe is that they upgraded from bulky to very bulky, which means you can't fit as many in a chimera. Given that you can no longer do a 5-ripper-gun drive-by, though, it's not a big loss.
Bullgryn
We did get these, though. Just as ogryn were our tactical terminators (more concentrated form of our regular infantry), we now have gotten ourselves assault terminators. They come in two forms.
The first are shield bullgryn. Their ripper gun is massively downgraded to a mere guard grenade launcher (that can only fire frag mode). Sure, throw around a bunch of small blasts, but their killing power now rests almost exclusively in close combat (which you would expect). The problem, though, is that they didn't gain anything to make them punch harder in close combat. In a way, it's like a terminator armored with a storm bolter and a storm shield... rather fangless.
The one thing they get, though, is the durability buff. To begin with, they get a 4+ armor save. So long as you pair them up so that each of them is in base contact with one other, that save upgrades to 3+. T5 W3 Sv3+ has some sticking around ability. They also have the thing where they improve the cover saves of everything behind them by 1, which does stack with cover saves they already have, including an aegis. By themselves, they're a mobile aegis of their own, giving a 4+ cover save to whatever is behind them.
The idea of a mobile aegis and a really hard to kill squad of ogryn does sound nice, but I have my doubts. Bullgryn are pretty expensive, and you don't get that many, which means that that "mobile aegis" is much, much shorter than a real aegis. Spending 200 points for what basically amounts to giving a single unit a +1 cover save isn't really worth it. Meanwhile, their killing power still isn't the best of best.
I could see this as a tarpit unit, or as a way to deliver priests or lord commissars across the board on foot. With good rolling with primarises, you could be talking about a unit with a 3+/4++ with T5 and a big pile of wounds. It does have rule of cool on its side, though, and it might be fun to play, but it still suffers from the problems of ogryn, generally.
But you can also swap out shield bullgryn for mace bullgryn. This is where things promise to get real. Their armor save goes back up to 4+, but they gain a latent 5++. Less crazy durable, but they also gain shred on their hammer of wrath hits, and they also get a power maul. Yeah, still stuck with just Ap4, and they no longer have furious charge to give them that +1S, but they still get +2S. That's still S7. Times four attacks per bullgryn on the charge. In a way, this makes orgyn the bully unit that you always wanted them to be.
But, of course, they're expensive, and they don't do THAT much damage for their cost. I'm interested in trying a mixed bullgryn unit, though, with two or three with shields in front and 3 or 4 with mauls in the back, and a priest or two to give all of those S7 attacks shred (ARMOR SAVES NOW!)
Ratlings
Ratlings are ratlings. The only new thing is that they gained "shoot n' scoot". I imagine this being used rarely, and only on turn 1 at that. Strangely enough, though, if you're willing to snap fire, guard have their first MSM unit.
Wyrdvane Psykers
Other than a name change, these guys behave the same. The only big difference is that they no longer have codex powers, and instead have the book powers, including divination again.
It's hard to see why you would ever want these when you can take primarises which are so much better in every way (independent, better psychic mastery, higher leadership, force weapon, etc.). They don't buff or hurt anyone else any better either. The only thing they do is buff themselves better. Iron arm, for example, effects the entire squad, rather than just the single model, and precognition could possibly make this squad scary, if properly kitted with support models. But those are low odds of working out.
It's tough to see why you would ever take these now.
Stormtroopers
This change fills me with a touch of nostalgia. In a way, by becoming cheaper, and in higher numbers, they become more common, which makes them less special. No longer do they have all of the special missions that made them interesting, and they lost their extra hellpistol, so they're less versatile in that way as well.
But that misty-eyed sentiment doesn't change the fact that they just got better. Instead of taking one squad, you take a platoon of up to 4 squads. That means up to 12 squads in a full FoC, all of them raining down melticide, or whatever. You can now use the stormtrooper ability of opening up a second front with 105 carapace armored models with hot-shot lasguns, instead of just 30, and you even now get orders to boot (like first rank fire, which now works on those hellguns). If you want to do a mass-drop army, you can pretty much do it, so long as everything else is taken care of.
The units did also get cheaper, and you can still take single 5-man melticide squads, but I feel like now they're a more go-big-or-go-home kind of thing (especially since you can't rely on pinpoint melta anymore) thanks to platoons. My guess is that stormtroopers will become more of a list style and less of an add-on with people playing stromtrooper lists with lots of them.
Interestingly enough, because they have platoons, you can now more seriously run mech stormies. You can now take a bunch of squads with a bunch of chimeras, and the missing special weapon won't be felt too harshly as you can only shoot two out of the top hatch anyways. And there's all the orders, and their special equipment.
It seems like there's now a smooth progression from conscripts to infantry squads to veterans to stormtroopers where you can sort of use the same strategy, you just have to decide how much special gear they'll be showing up with and what their statline will look like.
Scout Sentinels
The same, except lascannons got half as expensive. Golden.
Armored Sentinels
Of the two, this was the big winner. Much cheaper both at base and in upgrades.
The biggest thing about armored sentinels is that for pretty darn cheap you get 6 HP of AV12. That's a pretty decent amount of durability, especially for a squad that can give cover saves to stuff behind it, and can get into close combat. Furthermore, they retain the advantages they already had over vendettas (starting to shoot turn 1, being able to shoot at the same target over and over again, easier cover saves and no vulnerability to interceptor or skyfire), and they keep the advantages they had over russes (not totally stupid in close combat, and having a better long-range weapon profile.
Except now they're just cheaper. Not break the bank overpowered, but I bet you'll start to actually see these in lists more commonly rather than very infrequently. My only complaint is that this unit behaves like a heavy support choice, not like a fast attack choice.
Rough Riders
They did get restored to their 3.5 codex glory (albeit with one worse Ap on their lances), but they're still rough riders. That huge steaming dump that 6th edition took on them had nothing done to scrub them clean, or at least cover some of the odor.
Hellhound
Is the hellhound. A tiny points drop, but they still forgot the smoke launcher and searchlight.
Devil Dog
Likewise, except that for reasons I can't possibly imagine, it got more expensive. It's now the same cost as the vanquisher, but with worse armor, shorter range, and fewer options. Too bad, as I vaguely almost liked this tank before.
Banewolf
Exactly the same as it was before, which means it's exactly as useless.
Valkyrie
Got more expensive and lost scouts and deepstrike, all congruent with its change to flier. Rocket pods got cheaper, but otherwise it's the same. A pretty big disappointment, really.
Vendettas
Which is the same I could say for vendettas. Vendettas needed to be fixed. Instead they just tweaked it by making it more expensive and pointlessly reducing its transport capacity by a little bit. It's a transport, and it's a heavy support choice, and they badly shoehorned it into the fast attack slot. Once again, rather disappointed.
Hydras
The only thing that's a bigger disappointment than the vendetta is the hydra. The poor vehicle went from being our rifleman dread that ignored jink saves to... crap. Still doesn't have interceptor, which means airplanes can still blow it up before it gets a chance to shoot, and it still can't do anything against ground targets. At least it used to be good against skimmers, but I guess they thought that wave serpents weren't strong enough...
You already didn't need dedicated anti-air before, and now what is supposed to be the premier anti-air weapon has just gotten worse. It's all the more painful given how much better the rest of the HS choices got that they just made the hydra straight worse. Open topped only adds insult to injury. It looks like they came out with a hydra kit just in time for nobody to want to buy it. So much for only writing rules to drive sales.
Leman Russes
RUSSES! If there's anything to be said about this codex, one could cynically (or exuberantly) call it Codex: Leman Russ.
Russes are the same as they were before, but saw MASSIVE points cuts. The hulls are much cheaper (120 points can field you a piece of AV14. Unbelievable), and their weapons are much cheaper as well (discounts to multimeltas, lascannons, and plasma cannons). The best I can guess for why these firesale prices is because GW finally figured out how much worse tanks are than monstrous creatures, and how much worse heavy, non-skimmer tanks are compared to skimmers. I expected them to get a little cheaper, but this almost seems too much.
There are a few exceptions to this craziness, though. The first is the executioner. Yeah, it did get nearly 40 points cheaper, but it also gained gets hot for its main gun, which means its firepower has been reduced and its much more likely to kill itself turn 2 or 3. It's become more of a specialist anti-MC unit, which would bother me, except that it's just so much cheaper now.
The other exceptions are the ordnance large blast tanks. The LRBT and the demolisher already were easily on the bottom of the barrel, what with large blast weapons being useless against fliers and MCs, and much less useful against targets that displaced or made good use of multi-level cover. The snap-firing of (now cheaper) hull weapons also did them in. Yet, for all this, the LRBT stayed exactly the same, which means it stays at the bottom of the list, gathering dust. The only thing stranger was that they decided to make the demolisher MORE expensive. The eradicator, punisher and executioner all got 40 points cheaper or more, but the demolisher got more expensive? Poor, poor, useless demolisher. It's almost like it was a typo - the person writing a codex typing a "7" instead of a "2". At a 50 point discount, it would be in line with the cost of a vindicator, which has the same gun, worse armor, but is faster. I really don't know what they were thinking.
As for how you use them, it's all exactly the same as before. You now can just field more of them.
Basilisk
The poor basilisk returns to being the only big-gun lobber. It is otherwise exactly the same as it's been for the past decade (or more). Nothing really to say.
Wyvern
This new tank seems to take the old griffon and roll it up with the old colossus and old 5th ed hydra make it better. It's still accurate, but it uses several small blasts instead of a single big one. This means more accuracy and flexibility, and it also means that you can rack up more hits, and cause multiple wounds to single targets. With shred and ignores cover, it's pretty much guaranteeing that every time you shoot, you're going to force some armor saves.
... But, unfortunately, that's all it can do. It's no longer ordnance, and it's now just S4, which means it's now virtually useless against vehicles, and with just S4 and Ap6, it's not good against monstrous creatures either.
I'm sure a lot of people are going to swoon over this unit, and I'm sure it's going to be popular, and generate a lot of hate, but I predict that this will easily be the most over-rated new unit in the codex. The main reason is that while it can do a few things, it can only do one thing really well - killing light infantry (and sort or MEq). The problem is that the guard codex is literally choking on units that fill this role. It's hard to say why you'd need a wyvern when you have hellhounds and punishers and endless waves of FRF lasguns and chimera heavy bolters and, and, and.
It fills a role very well, but it's just not all that necessary, really. I don't imagine that will stop people from whining about it, though.
Manticores
Once again, much the same. They got a tiny bit more expensive, but that's in part because they correctly undid the bad FAQ ruling about weapon destroyed results.
Otherwise it's the same tank designed to strip hull points and unnecessarily murder hordes. Don't know if it's worth nearly the same price as 3 wyverns just to annoy vehicles, and given that I'm already not that sold on the wyvern...
The fluff on them worshiping their missiles was kind of cute, though.
Deathstrikes
These guys got a HUGE boost. For slightly cheaper, these guys got their maximum 5" radius, rather than an up to 5" radius, and now they get to shoot if you roll above a FOUR, just just rolling a 6. Pack in a few of these and you're looking at ludicrous damage in the first few turns.
The main problem, though, is that they still can't squadron, and russes just got so much cheaper that it feels bad to clog up valuable russ real estate with just a single missile. I can imagine these being pretty overpowered in low-points games, though, where FOC slots are less of a concern, and you're going to be running up against fewer fliers and monstrous creatures.
Yarrick
Yarrick had a bunch of changes happen to him. Yes, he's still the maybe-he-gets-back-up power claw bale eye cranky old man (his equipment is completely unchanged), but the rest of him is different.
Firstly, he got MUCH cheaper. But this comes at a cost. Aura of discipline got worse like for all commissars. Gone is fearless. Gone is the 12" bubble of stubborn. Gone is hatred. He also gained summary execution.
Pretty much he went from a beatstick buffmaster, to nothing more than a beatstick. His force field did change to make him a bit better at this (and invul save instead of an anti-shred field), but that's it. He's now just a dude with a power fist. An up-priced lord commissar.
Except there's one other main difference. He's now an officer. Without a CCS, so you can throw him in with some vets or something. This makes his role really rather different than before. He's not a commissar valiantly inspiring his men. He's now a senior officer that's a little bit more beaty. Really, it's best to think of him now as an alternative to straken. The problem is, though, why not just bring straken?
Creed
I'd hate to say Yarrick was the only casualty, but he's not. Creed also got worse. Gone is the extra huge command radius. Gone is the extra orders - you now get the same number, but he counts as a one-way vox caster. Gone is the making things outflank. Done is the for the honor of cadia order.
Like how Yarrick has been hacked down to a slightly better lord commissar, creed has been hacked down to a slightly better senior officer. Really, the only thing particularly interesting about him is that he can roll for two warlord traits. Ho hum. Like yarrick, he's no longer the force multiplier he once was
Kell
Kell also got worse - a lot worse. Gone is his ability to make infantry obey orders better (that went to creed before it got dumbed down), and all that's left of listen up maggots! is making it so that you can use KELL'S pathetic leadership of 8 (and only when he's in a squad with creed), which practically everything already has, or better. Meanwhile, a primaris in the squad will raise it up to Ld9, and then you'll get psychic powers, and the psyker is even cheaper.
Basically, he's now just an expensive way to add another powerfist to a CCS.
Straken
In case you missed the trend, straken also got worse. Like the above, he lost his best buff abilities and force multipliers and became a much more one-dimensional character.
He still dishes out fearless to his squad, and still has a nice stat line, but the respectable 12" bubble of furious charge and counterattack is now down to a measly 6", turning it from an army ability to just him and nearby squads. He still has Ap2, but he lost armorbane, replacing it with monster hunter, which seems rather worse.
The only thing he gained was that he can now do smash attacks, which means you have a guardsmen who has a source of S10 Ap2 (and at-initiative to boot), which means against some things he's scarier than he was before. Interestingly enough with monster hunter and smash combined, you actually have a pretty decent MC killer... if you can ever, EVER manage to get into close combat with one (that doesn't also kill you first).
The main problem is that for this change in abilities, he comes in at a prohibitive 35 points more expensive. He's almost more expensive than yarrick, and for at best not really any better.
Nork!
Nork is largely the same, with the most obvious changes being the changes that were made to ogryn in general (FC to HoW and very bulky). His loyalty changed a little bit (no longer will he kill commissars if they kill the officer, for example). His heroic sacrifice went from D6 S6 to 4 S5, but he also gained the hilarious headbutt ability which is like an Ap3 version of a smash attack.
The only thing particularly interesting is that he got a lot cheaper.
Pask
Now this one is actually different, and not for the worse for a change.
Pask is still an upgrade for a tank, but he is, more importantly, an upgrade for a tank commander (meaning Pask gets tank orders, etc.). To start with, he still makes the tank BS4, but his "if you sit still, you're +1S against vehicles and shred vs. MCs" went away. Firstly, the part about MCs is just gone, but the +1S instead depends on which russ you put him in. Before going over what they do, it's important to note that he no longer has a prohibition against moving in order to use this rule.
With most russes, the +1S gets turned over into twin-linked, and without dragging a psyker into it. This is better for vanquishers (which already likely penetrate armor), and eradicators (which weren't an anti-vehicle weapon in the first place). It also does somewhat ameliorate the problems of the large blast ordnance tanks. You're going to get so few shots off and do so little damage, that at least it's twin-linked, but it's rather too little too late.
With the executioner, pask gives you a wonky large blast template he can fire instead that I can't imagine ever wanting. That just leaves the exterminator and the punisher. The exterminator gets rending, which is a pretty good rule for this. The loss of +1S hurts a S7 weapon pretty badly, but at least you've got a roughly 2/3ds chance of getting +D3 strength and gaining that all-important Ap2. More importantly, it was a tank that suffered from not doing anything well, and this upgrades it to still a generalist tank, but at least it can now somewhat threaten harder targets like TEq, MCs and heavier vehicles.
But what steals the show, of course, is the pask punisher. A RENDING PUNISHER. People are getting excited about this for very, very good reason. The punisher was already arguably the best tank in the fleet, as it had the ability to be good against everything through both volume of fire AND a bunch of good high-S low-Ap weapons as well. You still have BS4 against light targets, but now you're causing rending against TEq (which you will now absolutely annihilate), and against monstrous creatures (which was better than shred against them), and against vehicles. A punisher cannon now has the ability to damage AV14 with its main gun as well as its hull weapons.
This is absolutely insane.
The only thing that held back the punisher was because it had only a 24" range and was stuck moving a maximum of 6" per turn. But remember the part where pask was a tank commander? That means he gets tank orders. That means he can move a leman russ up to 18" in a single turn if he forgoes shooting. That makes a 24" weapon much, MUCH scarier with a two-turn threat range of 48". Deployed reasonably centrally, that's practically the whole board.
Plus, he can still order split-fire for his squad and do the shoot-'n-smoke as well.
Last but not least, of course, he gets preferred enemy if he's your warlord. I'll just let that sink in. A pask tank squad is now a 3-tank army in its own right. I expect to see this a lot in guard armies, but I REALLY expect to see this a lot in people who ally in guard as a secondary detachment. We could easily see this showing up at tournaments soon.
For All Our Homies
Of course, not everything made it into the codex. For some reason, they decided to trim things down. The particularly distressing thing is the loss of all those special characters. There's rumors they're coming back as dataslates, but rumors are just that - rumors. Unless I actually see something different, I'm going to assume they're gone.
Bastonne
Not the biggest loss, but then there was no real reason to cut them. It seems like the changes in orders finally made him worth taking, and then they decided to give him the axe. Was useful in outflanking lists and especially air-cav. Don't know why he's gone.
Marbo
He was always just there for the yukks, so he's no real loss. That said, he was a super fluffy part of the imperial guard. I'll be sad to see him go.
Al'Rahem
This one actually hurts as there was an entire guard playstyle based off of him. I don't understand why they decided not to allow for outflanking armies anymore, but clearly this is the trend, as creed doesn't outflank and neither does harker. Don't know why they cut him. It's pretty clear that he's going to be gone, though, especially since they gave that one order of his into the general pool.
Chenkov
This one also really bites. I guess, on principle, infinitely respawning conscripts could be considered cheesy, but I never found any problems with it being overpowered in any case. Plus, SitNW was SUPER DUPER FLUFFY for a guard army. Being able to callously send your own men to their deaths and when the squad took 50% casualties figure that well, they were done for anyways and sending in the next infantry wave was awesome. Plus, being able to shout "To a man, you say? SEND IN THE NEXT WAVE!" in your local gaming store was worth it.
I dearly, dearly hope this gets a dataslate, but given that they were steering conscripts back towards the 4th ed ones, it seems tragically unlikely.
Mogul
Did anyone ever use him? Still, why the cut?
Penal Legions
These WERE the worst unit in the game. They were also not terribly fluffy. They should have either continued with the Last Chancers motif, or they should have made them more like conscripts. Now, if you want penal legionaires, you go back to using them as conscripts like you probably were before.
They could have tried to save them rather than cut them, but I guess it just wasn't worth the effort.
Colossus and Griffon
As mentioned, these both sort of just merged to become the Wyvern, and that's not that bad of a thing, really. They were both only so-so against vehicles anyways, and the loss of Ap3 is mitigated by just causing a lot more hits in the first place, and the wyvern is just straight better than the griffon used to be (and the griffon was a dubious unit with a silly looking model anyways).
This is more of an apotheosis than a loss, I think.
Medusa
This was, though, and I'm scratching my head for why. Having a field gun was nice, and having an artillery piece that could actually hurt hard targets rounded out the artillery section nicely. It's not the biggest loss, but it still does make me wonder why it was lost.
Play Styles
In 5th edition, foot guard was roughly as strong as mech guard (even during leafblower days), but 6th ed gave mech guard a gentle verbal chastisement while it bent foot guard over the barrel and beat it bloody.
Foot guard did get a bit of a helping hand this time around. We still don't have hidden upgrades, but we can make up for the fact that we can't hide commissars etc. by just being able to take more of them. Maybe it's the end of MSU blobs, but the blob might just possibly be able to make a slight comeback. There are an awful lot of sources of buffs for infantry platoons now, and they're very cheap, but they're not free, and they're not limitless. They also rely to a dangerous amount on several different units passing leadership tests to trigger their abilities, making the support that foot guard is going to be relying on rather unreliable.
MSU foot guard came out mostly the same, as the buffs won't help it as much, but then it was also hurt less by 6th ed. The real question is blobs. The real question is "can I run my whole army across the table and actually arrive there with some of it?". I hate to say it, but this still seems pretty weak. Blobs will now arrive with more strength, what with powerfist commissars and plasma gun priests and psychic shriek psykers, but there wasn't really added anything to make it more likely that they'll actually survive long enough to make it to engagement ranges.
Blobs are less bad, though, so I might give them a try again.
Mech guard will still stay mech guard. You might, on rare occasions, actually need to get guys out of their chimeras to bring the extra special weapon into play, but that's countered by the fact that if they get out, they now have better orders. Mechvets are still a superb defensive weapon, they just got rationalized a bit with their points costs and abilities.
The new mass-stormtrooper ability is kind of interesting, though, and was a playstyle I liked to run. Really, though, what steals the show is the new armored company guard. I'm looking forward to trying this out, and I can't believe I'm the only one.
Anyways, that's it for my summary of the codex based only on how it changed from the last codex. At some point in the near future, I'll do a writeup about the units based on their own merits.
Conclusion
In the run-up to this new codex the only thing I wanted was for them not to screw it up, and thankfully, my hopes and prayers were answered. The new guard codex will play very similarly to the old guard codex, and most of the old stuff is there that's been pretty much just slightly tweaked. Not a whole lot of big changes.
To talk about what changed in general, the most obvious thing to say was that lots of stuff got cheaper. Thankfully, though, this isn't some brute exercise in codex creep. The stuff that got cheaper was all from the low-power end of the codex and the combination of lower prices and better abilities really just served to make bad units usable again. The stuff from the middle of the codex, the stuff that just worked right in the first place, was scarcely touched. The most obvious examples were infantry platoons and the CCS. Plus, it wasn't all just in one direction either. A few things did get more expensive or lost options, and these were generally from the higher-power end of the codex.
The end result is pretty much exactly what you'd want. An army that uses the same models and plays in the same ways, with the overpowered stuff toned down a bit, and the big mass of stuff that had become bad or difficult to use getting revitalized. They also managed to do this without making any ultra thundernerfs, or without introducing a new pile of grossly overpowered units (excepting possibly pask).
The end result is a more thoughtful and internally-sensical codex with more options given to the player. I could hardly ask for more.
... well, then except for them to get someone new to write the fluff.
The Master of the Fleet seems pretty redundant now. He has to pass a leadership test at Ld 7 in order to have any impact on the battle at all, which makes him very unreliable.
Gomericus wrote:Not having a copy in hand yet,but after reading over several reviews,,,something I am pondering,is including an astropath in my ccs with telepathy ,plan being to use puppet master when folks show up with knight titans,,,aim at another unit close by and hope to flob the distance roll so it lands back on the knight itself,,,or use it against fliers or any other big nasty things,,,,so for 30pts you could take out 10xs the points.
Puppet master is not very useful against an imperial knight. Their ranged weapons are actually very tame. Not bad but not something that will kill an imperial titan. It would be much more effective to just hammer it with tank hunter lascannons (which is crazy easy to do now).
Telepathy is still pretty great though but each of the powers has a different optimal target. Keep your options open and hope the opponent brought Tau without an ethereal.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:What are people's opinions on the Militarum Tempestus codex/suppliment? I've always wanted to run Storm Troopers (guess they're called Scion now), but last dex they were pretty crappy. Are they finally god enough to be run as troops now?
They are pretty great in both of the dexs. The big thing is the prime has an order he can give. In the Scions dex a unit of 10 scions with plasma and the rending order can hunt any AV10 tank with ease killing it instantly. The sniper order from the same book with make wraithknights and nids MC cry. In the AM codex the scions can get tank hunter and MC hunter which is also brutal against both (except wraithknights where it is sad, you loose some you gain some)
Yarrick had a bunch of changes happen to him. Yes, he's still the maybe-he-gets-back-up power claw bale eye cranky old man (his equipment is completely unchanged), but the rest of him is different.
Firstly, he got MUCH cheaper. But this comes at a cost. Aura of discipline got worse like for all commissars. Gone is fearless. Gone is the 12" bubble of stubborn. Gone is hatred. He also gained summary execution.
Pretty much he went from a beatstick buffmaster, to nothing more than a beatstick. His force field did change to make him a bit better at this (and invul save instead of an anti-shred field), but that's it. He's now just a dude with a power fist. An up-priced lord commissar. Too bad.
You missed the fact he gets orders now, which is a really nice addition. I think his best quality is that he is the most durable warlord you can have now. If you add him to a blob, conscript squad or bullgryns then you no longer have the usual problem of warlord/orders locked up in a 5 man T3 squad of squishiness. I don't know, he just seems really good to me. His warlord trait is a pseudo-banner too.
Maybe I am just overestimating him, but he seems like a good choice for warlord, at least if you want durability. Pask makes a great warlord, but Yarrick is much less likely to die.
I'm still not sold on him though. He seems just an IC version of straken, except he's worse in close combat than straken against a lot of stuff.
---
Added a conclusion as well.
I guess if there was only one thing I'd want, I'd say that if guard's schtick is going to be "big pile of buffs that sometimes work and sometimes don't", then I would like to have had an option for increasing Ld values. It could easily get overpowered, but if the upgrade were on a T3 W1 Sv5+ model, or were expensive, or maybe was an upgrade or an order (temporary +1Ld perhaps?), then it could be balanced out.
I agree with what you're saying Ailaros in some respects with some of your more overly critical analysis, but I think you're dismissing some things way too easily without considering context.
The Wyvern, true, is an anti-infantry unit in an army that doesn't exactly lack them. However, it is accurate, so reliable and a cheap fix for IG armies that can't fit in anything specifically good at wiping the floor completely with light infantry ranging from Guardians to Firewarriors that are extremely annoying. While an LR Eradicator is cheaper than 2 Wyverns, 2 Wyverns give you more redundancy, which is pretty significant in competitive lists.
I think that I have gone blind. Which page is the ally section on? I can't seem to spot it.
Edit: Is there not supposed to be one, and you just use the rule book? My only other codex, since the previous IG one, is the MT codex. That had a section on who it could ally with, although as a completely new army I suppose it would have to,
"big pile of buffs that sometimes work and sometimes don't",
Which bothers me. I'm more of a not all of the eggs in one basket type. I don't like hoping the stars align.
Nice write up A-man!
Mr.Omega wrote:I agree with what you're saying Ailaros in some respects with some of your more overly critical analysis, but I think you're dismissing some things way too easily without considering context.
The Wyvern, true, is an anti-infantry unit in an army that doesn't exactly lack them. However, it is accurate, so reliable and a cheap fix for IG armies that can't fit in anything specifically good at wiping the floor completely with light infantry ranging from Guardians to Firewarriors that are extremely annoying. While an LR Eradicator is cheaper than 2 Wyverns, 2 Wyverns give you more redundancy, which is pretty significant in competitive lists.
You forgot to mention str 4 ap 6.
I will not be getting any of these. More for you Omega!
And why dump ~$150.00 USD on a unit that could very well get dumped in the next go around.
If I want to be completely simplistic about the codex:
we traded Chimera spam for Russ spam (dunno if its better or worse)
we turned our CCS into Tau pathfinders
I see Guard being primarily run 2 ways; Blob, and ABG
a bunch of blobs playing gunline with plasma/melta and lascannon support buffed by orders and divination is stupid crazy, drop in a preferred enemy for 60 more points and things are going to die.
Dakka tanks are really good, vanquishers and punishers being able to fill almost all roles.
The thing I keep trying to wrap my head around are the new kits
Taurox: rules wise meh, seems kinda like a glass cannon (and not a necessarily large cannon at that) models wise I think its horrid
Ogryns/Bullygruns: just too dang expensive, 40-60 points, heck I might as well run Paladins at that point. model wise they are ....ok i guess
Hydra: way too nerf an already nearly unused model, model wise finally we got a hydra
Scions: I can see a use for them especially if you start seeing more Imperial Knight armies, they are about where they need to be, model wise I really like the kit, (except the torso) well done GW
GW why dont you make toys that I want to play with....such vast potential,,,but your wasting your time on hookers and blow.
AkhilleusK42 wrote:Off topic, but every time I read the title of the thread I have the Priest of Sigmar from Warhammer: Mark of Chaos screaming it at me.
To me, sons of Terra!
I just played a game today with the new codex; granted it was a 6 players pseudo-Apocalypse game (not FoC, big numbers, forgo strategic assets, Warlord special rules and reserves rules- really just a big battle with super units when you think about it) but at least I got to play with lots of toys in one go.
Pask as a tank commander; deadly. The somewhat split fire he can give himself is wonderful. He was in a Vanquisher with a back up LRBT, and him taking shots as vehicle while his wingman was taking care of blobs in infantry was great. Plus with cheap camo-gear, 4+ save made him see the whole battle.
Primaris Psyker spend his whole time hiding in cover with an infantry squad (vox and ML+GL) giving to hit re-rolls. Said Squad took care of a squad of bonecrushers and crippled another squad of bloodletters thanks to receiving FRFSRF on top of the Psyker's help with an average of 6 wounds per volley; with only 5++ , lasguns actually was the winner on their part of the table.
MoO+Fire on my target on the CCS itself means good bye anything in cover that gets wounded. That or given to a HWT.
12inch range for orders is also great, now the PCS are not forced to be sticking like glue to IS to be order worthy.
Sadly, I never made my rolls with my scions, so I dind't had the chance to try them out yet...
Perfect Organism wrote: Having read the book, it seems that camo-netting and slabshields do stack with each other and any other effect which offers a bonus to cover saves, so it's pretty easy to get 3+ cover on your vehicles.
RegulusBlack wrote:we turned our CCS into Tau pathfinders
It's pretty far from this.
The CCS is more fragile than a squad of pathfinders, and the unit they're giving an order to has to be close enough (instead of the entire army), and you have to use those orders at the beginning (instead of using them at any time during the shooting phase), and they only work for the single unit shooting (instead of the entire army), and they only work on units that pass their leadership test (which is crummy, unlike pathfinders, who just need to roll to hit). The CCS can't also give +BS buffs as well.
In a way, CCSs work in the way that pathfinders should have worked, instead of the wonky PCP-induced insanity of how they actually do.
Mr.Omega wrote:The Wyvern, true, is an anti-infantry unit in an army that doesn't exactly lack them. However, it is accurate, so reliable and a cheap fix for IG armies that can't fit in anything specifically good at wiping the floor completely with light infantry ranging from Guardians to Firewarriors that are extremely annoying. While an LR Eradicator is cheaper than 2 Wyverns, 2 Wyverns give you more redundancy, which is pretty significant in competitive lists.
As mentioned, though, S4 Ap6.
Take a moment to compare them to a mortar HWS. They are a bit more accurate. They ignore cover, but since they're already barrage and Ap6, this isn't really that much of a benefit. They have an extra shot, and they have shred as well. But in the end, they're just an up-damaged version of a mortar HWS.
I mean, at least the griffon had Ap4. And the eradicator DOES have Ap4, and better strength, and can upgrade with anti-tank weapons, and is on closed-top AV14.
In a way, the wyvern is sort of a multi-shot blast lasgun. Hmm...
alarmingric wrote:Which bothers me. I'm more of a not all of the eggs in one basket type. I don't like hoping the stars align.
Nice write up A-man!
Thanks!
It only sort of bothers me, to be honest. The wonkiness of a dice game is rather why 40k is 40k in the first place, and randomness is a decent way of preventing overpoweredness.
I guess the real test of a guard commander in the future will be one who knows how to take advantage of all of these leadership-based buffs, while on the other hand learning not to rely on them. That will be a tricky middle-ground to figure out.
RegulusBlack wrote: Ive been saying for a while, weve got a psuedo Colossus in the CCS now. Glad you had success with it.
do you think that Pask with another tank is better than a CCS (MoO) and a small lascannon blob squad?
I'm thinking of running 3x triple squad platoons with plasma/lascannon for the FoMT orders, but I might try the Pask build.
Perhaps in term of damage output an durability (AV14 is a tough nut to crack) , Pask with a tank is better, but the lack of scoring, orders and well, let's call it 'flexibility' the CCS and a blob is better in the long run. blob means a PCS as well, so that's 2 (small) units that can give orders.
Really, the nice think with Pask is that he's got re-rolls for the long range tanks, BS4 and those tank orders. I would personally go with a mix with one CCS and a tank commander with the other, quite possibly Pask if I can spare the 40 pts extra.
Right, also, how many people were consistently filling up both HQ slots for their guard armies before? To my recollection, most players only ever used one slot for their CCS, or occasionally just a lord commissar, and if there was another HQ at all it was spent on a cheap primaris psyker.
It's more of a case of "we have a reason to take two HQs" than a case of "we have too much stuff competing for HQ slots".
Ailaros wrote: Right, also, how many people were consistently filling up both HQ slots for their guard armies before? To my recollection, most players only ever used one slot for their CCS, or occasionally just a lord commissar, and if there was another HQ at all it was spent on a cheap primaris psyker.
It's more of a case of "we have a reason to take two HQs" than a case of "we have too much stuff competing for HQ slots".
I agree. In fact, I think that the heavy and slots are a lot less crowded now, and the HQ slots are really hard to pick. After a tank commander takes up two or three russes, it is hard to fill out three heavy slots without using up too many points.
Ailaros wrote: Right, also, how many people were consistently filling up both HQ slots for their guard armies before? To my recollection, most players only ever used one slot for their CCS, or occasionally just a lord commissar, and if there was another HQ at all it was spent on a cheap primaris psyker.
It's more of a case of "we have a reason to take two HQs" than a case of "we have too much stuff competing for HQ slots".
Personally I always used 2 CCS, for the CCS-only orders, having 2 standards and a few BS4 plasma guns. I used a standard commissar once or twice, never had any interest in a Commissar Lord, and a Primaris once.
Now, I'm actually thinking of downsizing that to a single CCS with a tank commander in the other slot, and even then I'm hesitant to loose FomT and BiD
I've got to be honest, I cried a little inside when I thought that Sanario might have to give up his Eviscerator. That bothered me more than the fact that my own priest with Eviscerator was relegated to ally status.
That being said, Priests are, in my book, are a gigantic boost for blob guard. They do exactly what helps blob guard the most in 6th, and they do it on the cheap. In my 6th edition experience, blob guard is good because it is super durable for the points if you don't upgrade it too much, and massed lasguns with Divination are really effective. Priests only make them better. First, they are a source of leadership. Second, they're cheap enough that they're not diluting the firepower of the blob too much, and are in fact adding to it with their (precision shooting) plasma gun. Finally, they add to the close-combat power of the blob in exactly the right way, by boosting regular guys.
Assault is bad in 6th, so you don't need to be that good, you just need to be good enough to beat whoever gets through your guns in a battle of attrition. That's exactly what priests do. They give you the battle of attrition while boosting your psychology and your shooting.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, the shoot+run order makes blobs faster while still killing guys with their guns.
I've slapped together a weird list full of a bunch of stuff that I'd never used with the old Codex, and with a bit of creative Counts As (my LRBTs became Vanquishers, my Medusas became Basalisks, and my Griffon just got promoted or demoted to Wyvern) I'm going to poke around with it at a 3 round RTT in Ashburn, VA tomorrow.
Somehow, I won't be surprised if I end the day buying more boxes of WFB ogres to build a lot more Bullgryns. I also don't have high hopes for the Wyvern, though three Servo Skullls might turn it (and the battery of Basalisks, and the Demolisher) into horrific engines of first turn destruction.
They are codex legal thudd guns that can snipe characters out of deathstars.
Bring Coteaz, either go first or double effort for seize, bless squads of them, and force so many saves on a deathstar, preferably on the major buff elements,... and Bob's your uncle.
I think we'll be seeing a lot of this for the alpha strike capabilities alone. Most Deathstars HAVE to start the game on the board to get their powers off. Pound away at the support elements and you'll either flatten enough heavy lifters or actually kill the primary support meaning GG deathstar.
Basically, if you circumvent the wound sponges up front and get the squishy bits in the back, you're making people have bad saves. Yes, it's only S4 Ap6 instead of S5 AP5, but it can move and not be required to reload. Shred also makes up for it in spades.
These facts alone will make a unit of 3 or 2 units of 2 Wyverns a main stay in a competitive guard army.
I would never give a priest a plasmagun. Just too much of a risk to your support character. Also it almost doubles his points. Not worth it IMO. It is easy to get the fire power you need elsewhere.
Leth wrote: I would never give a priest a plasmagun. Just too much of a risk to your support character. Also it almost doubles his points. Not worth it IMO. It is easy to get the fire power you need elsewhere.
Just so I can give folks some aid, Sisters allies might be worth it for more priests. The SoB priests are better and can carry the Litanies of Faith which allows priests in a unit to auto-pass war hymns tests. This means if you're building a wicked power blob with 50 IG + 8 Priests + 3 Psykers. Get Forewarning, Foreboding, Prescience and then reroll all saves and wounds in close combat.
Slice of fried gold. Put St. Celestine in there for Hit and Run, bring 5 cheap sisters in a rhino and go to town. Get an Exorcist if you love the model, good support tank.
Really dig the Tank Commander and that ability. That's over all just really amazing. Being able to free up a Heavy Support slot like that is pretty amazing.
The main problem with blobs have had in 6th ed, though, wasn't that they lacked killing power, or had leadership problems. The reason they were bad is because of durability problems thanks to by-model cover, and the new wound allocation regime.
Unfortunately, none of that got fixed. A 50-guardsmen-with-priests deathstar sounds cool, but then you're going to play against tau and watch as it instantly evaporates, or you're going to play against eldar and all that shuricannon spam cleans it off the board in two turns before it gets to do anything.
This kind of thing only works if you can actually advance up the table, and the new guard codex did nothing to fix this problem. Other than spending a bunch of points and hoping for a 4++, but that's still subject to failed leadership/perils and just not drawing the power in the pre-game rolls. You could already get a 4++ blob with DA, but that didn't save blobs. Neither will this.
I respectfully disagree. Str 4 ap 6, period. I'm not giving up a HS slot for that over a Bassy, Russ or Manticore.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ailaros wrote: The main problem with blobs have had in 6th ed, though, wasn't that they lacked killing power, or had leadership problems. The reason they were bad is because of durability problems thanks to by-model cover, and the new wound allocation regime.
Unfortunately, none of that got fixed. A 50-guardsmen-with-priests deathstar sounds cool, but then you're going to play against tau and watch as it instantly evaporates, or you're going to play against eldar and all that shuricannon spam cleans it off the board in two turns before it gets to do anything.
This kind of thing only works if you can actually advance up the table, and the new guard codex did nothing to fix this problem. Other than spending a bunch of points and hoping for a 4++, but that's still subject to failed leadership/perils and just not drawing the power in the pre-game rolls. You could already get a 4++ blob with DA, but that didn't save blobs. Neither will this.
Ailaros wrote: The CCS is more fragile than a squad of pathfinders, and the unit they're giving an order to has to be close enough (instead of the entire army), and you have to use those orders at the beginning (instead of using them at any time during the shooting phase), and they only work for the single unit shooting (instead of the entire army), and they only work on units that pass their leadership test (which is crummy, unlike pathfinders, who just need to roll to hit). The CCS can't also give +BS buffs as well.
How is the CCS, which can have 4+ armour, +1 cover saves and use it's ability from inside a chimera far more fragile than a unit of pathfinders?
You do know that you have to spend markerlight tokens per shooting attack, right? It works on any unit, but a very limited number of times.
Pathfinders also don't give you the ability to have monster/tank hunters, can't buff their own attacks, don't give you a cheap psyker, etc.
Just used the new IG in a game vs demons. I lost, mostly due to a blobs inability to fail a ld test get swept like they should have. However the firepower the guard put out was awesome. I clumped two eradicators a manticore and some heavy weapons around a CCS with the preferred enemy bubble and their firepower was hideous. Orders plus high strength shots plus PE is the way to go.
Great write-up Ailaros, I agree with most of it wholeheartedly.
I'm still going to at least give Yarrick a try, combining a beatstick, pseudo-CCS and a Lord Commissar with the best way of protecting Slay The Warlord. To my mind, he's one of the few SCs (alongside Pask and Nork) that actually got a buff.
Creed, Kell and Straken got worse, really. It's hard to argue with that, given that Creed is no longer the Tactical Genius (why couldn't they just guve him the outflank Warlord Trait), Creed stole Kell's ability to make orders more reliable and is now absurdly expensive, and Straken took a hit to his main ability.
Mr.Omega wrote: I agree with what you're saying Ailaros in some respects with some of your more overly critical analysis, but I think you're dismissing some things way too easily without considering context.
The Wyvern, true, is an anti-infantry unit in an army that doesn't exactly lack them. However, it is accurate, so reliable and a cheap fix for IG armies that can't fit in anything specifically good at wiping the floor completely with light infantry ranging from Guardians to Firewarriors that are extremely annoying. While an LR Eradicator is cheaper than 2 Wyverns, 2 Wyverns give you more redundancy, which is pretty significant in competitive lists.
I would seriously consider you have a look at either leman russ punishers or exterminators with 3 heavy bolters. While not the most efficient way to wipe clean a unit, a pair of those with commander's orders up and prescience could wipe out an enemy in a matter of a turn or two - 3 Punishers with 9 heavy bolters (sponsons on each) can take off 25 orks without re-rolls, 38 with them. They only do more wounds against other forms of swarms, although tyranids may provide some issues with their 3+ cover saves (they kill 18 termagants with a 3+ cover save). While I won't deny that the wyvern is undoubtedly a cheap and powerful blast caddy, there are most definitely units very capable of wiping the floor completely with light infantry within this codex. The other issue with Punishers over wyverns is that they have a minute range, meaning you'll be getting hit by the time you've brought fire to bear.
AS a side note, the same build should punch through any AV10/11 hull (2.41 hull points to an AV11 flyer, but that's you firing without re-rolls and at your absolute limit.) The same unit can deal an average of 2.41 wounds to a riptide. Given that it's a hail of low strength firepower, that's a testament to his capabilities.
Dunno where this idea that Sergeants can take Plasma Guns came from but they can't. They can take from Ranged Weapons and that is Bolt Pistols, boltguns and Plasma Pistol.
Oh and to silence any discussion on the topic of Precision Shot as a rule: The iPad version of the codex always includes hyperlinked summaries of special rules and Precision Shot means "Roll a 6 to hit and you allocate the shot" not that you allocate every shot like some people were arguing in the old rumours thread.
I dont get why the relic boltpistol has precision shot on it, when the only guy that can wield it is a commissar lord... who obviously has precision shot as a character.
Another case of the rules writers not understanding the rules?
Ailaros wrote: The main problem with blobs have had in 6th ed, though, wasn't that they lacked killing power, or had leadership problems. The reason they were bad is because of durability problems thanks to by-model cover, and the new wound allocation regime.
I disagree. That is the main problem with close combat blobs, shooty blobs that are also competent in close combat are dangerous to the enemy on turn one, don't need their killing power up front, and have excellent durability per point. Furthermore, priests as a source of leadership are about four times more durable than commissars, do more to help in combat, more to boost shooting, and better leadership buffs for less points.
Priests don't let you go to ground and also don't boost leadership for orders. This means that you can't do the "Get back in the fight" trick and test orders on an 8.
The Quad-Mortar tank, its shells are better-than-Str5 vs infantry.
Are there any ways to access mobile troops outside of transports (chimera, School Bus or Valkyrie's)?
When is the codex being released? I've checked everywhere and I cannot find a release date - please help! I live in the UK, fyi.
Was released yesterday. You don't get mobile troops without transports really, although you can ally in Scions from the Militarum Tempestus codex. That gets you deep strike troops which score,
That is the main problem with close combat blobs, shooty blobs that are also competent in close combat are dangerous to the enemy on turn one, don't need their killing power up front, and have excellent durability per point. Furthermore, priests as a source of leadership are about four times more durable than commissars, do more to help in combat, more to boost shooting, and better leadership buffs for less points.
You shooty blob will be reduced to ashes with enemy fire (can be prevented by aegis and camping in one place) or tarpited in melee by monstrous creatures (cant reliably prevent this one, especially with FMC Daemons and Nids...). Still, durability is great with aegis, but there is a danger of tarpit by cheaper unit...
Blobs firepower is very cost ineffective (aegis + 50 men LC blob + priest for fearless + primaris for TL + CCS voxed for orders....5 LC shots, which are TL, ignores cover, but cost about 550 points and cant move to better position, which is VERY important in wh40k.....that a big no no...)
How exactly can your priest buff a squads firepower? There is no bonus afaik. He also does not boost leadership, he is LD 7.
What does anyone think of this ABG (as in, forgeworld) allied detachment for guard?:
Command Vanquisher with beast-hunter shells, co-axial heavy stubber - 190pts
Commissar Vanquisher with beast-hunter shells, co-axial heavy stubber - 190pts
Armoured fist squad w. lascannon in autocannon chimera - 130pts
So for 510pts, we get two tanks which murder armour and monstrous creatures, and one provides a Ld10 bubble to all your dudes for orders and stuff. We also get a scoring unit in a vehicle that adds some lascannon and autocannon fire. Thoughts?
My blobs sergeants carry meltabombs so I welcome MCs. Anyway, an enemy army can destroy any unit, but blobs are the toughest for the points while still retaining versatile firepower.
I'm looking at 3 squads with meltabombs and plasma guns, plus a plasma priest. 250 points, scoring, not a huge investment, firepower to threaten anything but heavy armor, 31 bodies.
Biophysical wrote:I disagree. That is the main problem with close combat blobs, shooty blobs that are also competent in close combat are dangerous to the enemy on turn one, don't need their killing power up front, and have excellent durability per point. Furthermore, priests as a source of leadership are about four times more durable than commissars, do more to help in combat, more to boost shooting, and better leadership buffs for less points.
But why use blobs? Why not just use MSU?
The small increase in orders efficiency is more than outweighed by all the other benefits of MSU, and you don't have to spend points on those support characters to boot.
Foot guard as per hiding behind an aegis with a gunline got a little bit better, but it wasn't really the point of taking blobs in the first place. If all you wanted was some lascannons, you have options for lascannons elsewhere in the codex. If you wanted blobs, the point was go go somewhere with them.
Taurox with some 3rd party tires doesn't look so bad.
That is amazing and if you do not link a tutorial or source for those wheel I'm reporting you to the commissar for tech heresy! (But seriously, we need to know how to do this. It is that awesome.)
After dinking around with a few builds against the wife's DE I'm liking Vets in auger taurox, scion bomb, with castled up blob support. The Bullgryns were able to tarpit her wytchs and provide a good buffer between those nasty DE and the little'uns but that was about it, I still like them I just feel like I used them poorly. (note to self, keep ogryns away from kabalite warriors.) I'm way out of practice and the game I get are few and far between so I'm relegated to mainly theory crafting, but i do like the new dex. Once i get back stateside and into a regular scene I think I'll be able to really get a handle on it though.
1.) Kill points
2.) MSU is easy to push off objectives in the last turn because of bad leadership (although new Commissar rules may make MSU more interesting in this regard)
3.) MSU is bad at pushing tough enemies off objectives because of almost non-existent close-combat ability
4.) MSU can make far less use of important order and psykic buffs. It's not a small increase efficiency, it's 3-4 times the number of heavy and/or special weapons that can make use of Fire on My Target/Bring it Down and/or Prescience or any other of the great Divination buffs.
5.) MSU squads can be swept off the field by casual close combat (anything better in close combat than half a squad of tac marines can assault and destroy a lone infantry squad in one go.
6.) MSU is bad at protecting independent characters (although you probably just don't take them).
What do you get for all these drawbacks? The opportunity for your opponent to waste a little firepower by overkilling 10-man squads.
When running power blobs what do you guys do with your PCS and CCS? 5 dudes giving orders that need to be nearby would seem like an easy target. Put them in chimeras?
The Pask Punisher is great, I took it with a Vanquisher with MM's in a squadron. Pask killed a Chimera with Melta Vets inside and then proceeded to wipe the entire squad, despite the fact they were in hard cover, in the following turn. The Vanquisher just split-fired every turn using "Gunners, Kill On Sight" and ended up killing a Taurox and another Chimera, the rest was handled by 20 Forward Sentry melta vets on foot.
Other things of note - Forwards For The Emperor is one of the best new orders, and combined with cloaked Vets It gives me some great light infantry elements and on the cheap. Being able to pop out from behind cover, blast off some meltaguns and lasgun shots and then run back behind it is pretty brutal.
I had my opponent in the second game use Suppressive Fire, kill one Vet in my heavily entrenched Vet squad in one turn, and then pin me, which was pretty surprising because I'd already forgotten it exists- it does, and against low LD infantry it works a treat.
Thus far I am really happy with this Codex. The only unit loss that really bothers me is Al'Rahem, he'll sorely be missed. I can still use Cypher to outflank a blob but I wouldn't want to miss out on the awesome new orders.
That's a question I've never satisfactorily answered. The two best I've found are with nothing added, on foot. It's basically a kill point anyway, so don't give your opponent any more than that. A chimera with quad flamers is probably the best overall option, used as a mobile order dispenser and counter-attacker.
In the new dex, I kind of like quad snipers on foot. The squad is still super-vulnerable, but it's still cheap, and has some capability. No practical experience, yet.
Mr.Omega wrote: I played two 600 games with the new 'Dex today.
The Pask Punisher is great, I took it with a Vanquisher with MM's in a squadron. Pask killed a Chimera with Melta Vets inside and then proceeded to wipe the entire squad, despite the fact they were in hard cover, in the following turn. The Vanquisher just split-fired every turn using "Gunners, Kill On Sight" and ended up killing a Taurox and another Chimera, the rest was handled by 20 Forward Sentry melta vets on foot.
...
Thus far I am really happy with this Codex.
You should try a few games against Eldars...you probably wont be happy anymore...
Mr.Omega wrote: I played two 600 games with the new 'Dex today.
The Pask Punisher is great, I took it with a Vanquisher with MM's in a squadron. Pask killed a Chimera with Melta Vets inside and then proceeded to wipe the entire squad, despite the fact they were in hard cover, in the following turn. The Vanquisher just split-fired every turn using "Gunners, Kill On Sight" and ended up killing a Taurox and another Chimera, the rest was handled by 20 Forward Sentry melta vets on foot.
...
Thus far I am really happy with this Codex.
You should try a few games against Eldars...you probably wont be happy anymore...
You should probably learn to take advantage of Eldar weaknesses. They're nothing scary if you don't get blinded by illusions of their supposed unstoppable strength. Target and destroy the Psykers, don't present infantry unless you have a strict numbers/'defensive advantage, use such tools as Vendettas and Leman Russes to obliberate Wraithknights.
HWS teams with Fire On My Target, that can now be issued twice a phase is a strong counter to Wave Serpents, taking away their precious 4+ cover saves. And before you whinge at me about leadership you can always take a Lord Commissar to give both HWS LD10.
1.) Kill points
2.) MSU is easy to push off objectives in the last turn because of bad leadership (although new Commissar rules may make MSU more interesting in this regard)
3.) MSU is bad at pushing tough enemies off objectives because of almost non-existent close-combat ability
4.) MSU can make far less use of important order and psykic buffs. It's not a small increase efficiency, it's 3-4 times the number of heavy and/or special weapons that can make use of Fire on My Target/Bring it Down and/or Prescience or any other of the great Divination buffs.
5.) MSU squads can be swept off the field by casual close combat (anything better in close combat than half a squad of tac marines can assault and destroy a lone infantry squad in one go.
6.) MSU is bad at protecting independent characters (although you probably just don't take them).
What do you get for all these drawbacks? The opportunity for your opponent to waste a little firepower by overkilling 10-man squads.
MSU is harder to push off of objectives because your opponent can't cause one failed morale check or blow a single squad off the table with concentrated firepower. Meanwhile, no configuration of infantry platoon is going to be able to go across the table and push something off of an objective. Meanwhile, MSU is only less efficient for orders in infantry squads, which, given that you're losing a single lascannon or maybe two isn't that much. MSU is also better if your opponent is getting into close combat as speedbumping is FAR superior to getting stuck in, especially with these better orders we have.
Meanwhile, MSU has much more flexible firepower, and suffers less from overkill, and it also makes your opponent have to target many squads, and can force overkill on your opponent. They are better at holding and contesting objectives as more units means more objectives you can hold and more turns required to remove your units from them. They're more durable not only because of the time and targeting problem, but they can also give cover saves to each other. As mentioned, speed bumping is much better, and forcing disordered charges isn't bad either. You also don't need to have coherency for all of your dudes, so can split them up (more flexibility in deployment), and you don't have to watch as all of them get drug off an objective by a single model getting into close combat.
The only thing that blobs are straight better for is KP, as you say, but that's only 1 in 6 missions. For the other 5 in 6, the MSU is better.
Now, if we were talking about a blob that was designed to be good in close combat, then that would be a different matter, as you actually want to get all those guys stuck in and overkill is a much lower risk than losing combat, and getting drug off of objectives by close combat is going to be much less of a problem. Blobs worked well because of power blobs. Shooty blobs haven't ever been as good of a use for blobs because the small benefit you get of buffing more models at a time doesn't make up for the drawbacks. Meanwhile, of course, MSU power blobs probably wouldn't work well at all.
The real question, then is if the new codex brought back power blobs. They're certainly better than they used to be, but I don't have confidence that they've actually been fixed from being completely broken.
Mr.Omega wrote: I played two 600 games with the new 'Dex today.
The Pask Punisher is great, I took it with a Vanquisher with MM's in a squadron. Pask killed a Chimera with Melta Vets inside and then proceeded to wipe the entire squad, despite the fact they were in hard cover, in the following turn. The Vanquisher just split-fired every turn using "Gunners, Kill On Sight" and ended up killing a Taurox and another Chimera, the rest was handled by 20 Forward Sentry melta vets on foot.
...
Thus far I am really happy with this Codex.
You should try a few games against Eldars...you probably wont be happy anymore...
You should probably learn to take advantage of Eldar weaknesses. They're nothing scary if you don't get blinded by illusions of their supposed unstoppable strength. Target and destroy the Psykers, don't present infantry unless you have a strict numbers/'defensive advantage, use such tools as Vendettas and Leman Russes to obliberate Wraithknights.
HWS teams with Fire On My Target, that can now be issued twice a phase is a strong counter to Wave Serpents, taking away their precious 4+ cover saves. And before you whinge at me about leadership you can always take a Lord Commissar to give both HWS LD10.
Mr.Omega wrote: I played two 600 games with the new 'Dex today.
The Pask Punisher is great, I took it with a Vanquisher with MM's in a squadron. Pask killed a Chimera with Melta Vets inside and then proceeded to wipe the entire squad, despite the fact they were in hard cover, in the following turn. The Vanquisher just split-fired every turn using "Gunners, Kill On Sight" and ended up killing a Taurox and another Chimera, the rest was handled by 20 Forward Sentry melta vets on foot.
...
Thus far I am really happy with this Codex.
You should try a few games against Eldars...you probably wont be happy anymore...
You should probably learn to take advantage of Eldar weaknesses. They're nothing scary if you don't get blinded by illusions of their supposed unstoppable strength. Target and destroy the Psykers, don't present infantry unless you have a strict numbers/'defensive advantage, use such tools as Vendettas and Leman Russes to obliberate Wraithknights.
HWS teams with Fire On My Target, that can now be issued twice a phase is a strong counter to Wave Serpents, taking away their precious 4+ cover saves. And before you whinge at me about leadership you can always take a Lord Commissar to give both HWS LD10.
What's this "whinge" you keep whining about?
whinge wɪn(d)ʒ/Submit BRIT.informal verb 1. complain persistently and in a peevish or irritating way. "stop whingeing and get on with it!" synonyms: complain, grouse, grouch, grumble, whine, moan, carp, mutter, murmur, whisper; More noun noun: whinge; plural noun: whinges 1. an act of complaining persistently and peevishly. "she let off steam by having a good whinge" synonyms: complaint, grouse, moan, grouch, grumble, whine, carp, mutter, murmur, whisper; More
MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]
MSU is harder to push off of objectives because your opponent can't cause one failed morale check or blow a single squad off the table with concentrated firepower.
You can grab LD10 stubborn for 25 points off an Inquisitor, LD9 from a Commissar at the same price. The former also gives the entire blob the boons of prescience easily. A blob is not going anywhere.
Meanwhile, no configuration of infantry platoon is going to be able to go across the table and push something off of an objective.
I disagree. Even just dozens of Lasguns will easily dislodge Marines and infantry from weight of wounds, especially now that we can give those lasgun shots the ability to pick out the worst anti-infantry killers in each squad, if they're low LD (Cultists, Guardsmen, Guardians, etc) we can have a go at pinning them, we can throw buckets of dice with FRFSRF, we can split our fire if multiple types of threats are encountered, and move across open ground quickly with a far more safe PCS from 12'' back.
Meanwhile, MSU is only less efficient for orders in infantry squads, which, given that you're losing a single lascannon or maybe two isn't that much.
Definitely at least two heavy weapons, and about 16~ men at least aren't getting the benefits of the order. Considering we can literally give ignores cover and splitfire to neutralize the issues of hard cover and wasting the Lasguns,I would not do MSU Infantry Squads.
MSU is also better if your opponent is getting into close combat as speedbumping is FAR superior to getting stuck in, especially with these better orders we have. That just means that given time he rips apart your defences easily piece by piece with no chance at all of fighting back effectively. A horde of Guardsmen will take quite some casualties, but will have attacks to throw back all at once, will last more than a turn and likely have an LD buffer so they stay in the fight longer.
Meanwhile, MSU has much more flexible firepower, and suffers less from overkill, and it also makes your opponent have to target many squads, and can force overkill on your opponent. Our Command Squads can now give any infantry unit split fire, so this is kind of a moot point, even if it was particularly a concern in the first place - I rarely see overkill outside of having to mop up small squads with a bucket of Lasgun dice.
They are better at holding and contesting objectives as more units means more objectives you can hold
A large blob can spread out and capture multiple objectives anyway if this is an issue.
and more turns required to remove your units from them. This is both balanced out by the fact that a large CC fight will take longer to resolve given the mandatory includes of morale buffers and the fact that it takes considerably more effort to force morale tests, which are done at considerably better LD.
They're more durable not only because of the time and targeting problem, but they can also give cover saves to each other.
They should be in cover to begin with.
As mentioned, speed bumping is much better, For reasons mentioned above, having a longer protracted single combat is probably better (and for purposes of avoiding contesting the size of the blob in the combat will mean the guys at the back will still be holding it) as it will last multiple turns, with Priests put out more oomph, and won't fold like wet tissue paper as easily.
You also don't need to have coherency for all of your dudes, so can split them up (more flexibility in deployment), and you don't have to watch as all of them get drug off an objective by a single model getting into close combat.
Smatterings of naffness is worse than a concentration resulting in a strong unit.
This is more of a tactics and strategy concern if a single model is able to reach your Guardsmen and wipe them off the objective. The simple answer is to blow it to pieces long before that happens or add in hard counters to the unit itself - if its an MC, a Priest can smash, a Lord Commissar can use a power fist, Straken can counter-charge, just to state a few.
The only thing that blobs are straight better for is KP, as you say, but that's only 1 in 6 missions. For the other 5 in 6, the MSU is better.
I disagree for the reasons outlined above
The real question, then is if the new codex brought back power blobs. They're certainly better than they used to be, but I don't have confidence that they've actually been fixed from being completely broken.
I don't think precision shots were ever an issue, as they're so rare, and even rarer effective. Yeah, you might face one GK player one day with a Vindicare who snipes your Priest turn 1, but how many armies have a Vindicare?
We can put down more models on the table, we can safer spam Move Move Move and to multiple units per Command Squad, and now we have Bullgryns to give our blobs a mobile ADL.
But really, I think the best CC blob we're going to be seeing is Conscripts with a Lord Commissar or Inquisitor or equivalent inserted, and a Priest or two added. Even with WS2 S3, you're getting re-rolls to hit and re-rolls to wound, with the latter of the morale buffers you're also getting CC buff/nerf gadgets too.
Mr.Omega wrote: I played two 600 games with the new 'Dex today.
The Pask Punisher is great, I took it with a Vanquisher with MM's in a squadron. Pask killed a Chimera with Melta Vets inside and then proceeded to wipe the entire squad, despite the fact they were in hard cover, in the following turn. The Vanquisher just split-fired every turn using "Gunners, Kill On Sight" and ended up killing a Taurox and another Chimera, the rest was handled by 20 Forward Sentry melta vets on foot.
...
Thus far I am really happy with this Codex.
You should try a few games against Eldars...you probably wont be happy anymore...
You should probably learn to take advantage of Eldar weaknesses. They're nothing scary if you don't get blinded by illusions of their supposed unstoppable strength. Target and destroy the Psykers, don't present infantry unless you have a strict numbers/'defensive advantage, use such tools as Vendettas and Leman Russes to obliberate Wraithknights.
HWS teams with Fire On My Target, that can now be issued twice a phase is a strong counter to Wave Serpents, taking away their precious 4+ cover saves. And before you whinge at me about leadership you can always take a Lord Commissar to give both HWS LD10.
What's this "whinge" you keep whining about?
whinge
wɪn(d)ʒ/Submit
BRIT.informal
verb
1.
complain persistently and in a peevish or irritating way.
"stop whingeing and get on with it!"
synonyms: complain, grouse, grouch, grumble, whine, moan, carp, mutter, murmur, whisper; More
noun
noun: whinge; plural noun: whinges
1.
an act of complaining persistently and peevishly.
"she let off steam by having a good whinge"
synonyms: complaint, grouse, moan, grouch, grumble, whine, carp, mutter, murmur, whisper; More
Its dialect, you cretin.
There are ways to make a point or provide information with out being a dick.
Stay classy Mr. O!
I'll agree that you don't expect any blob to cross the table and take an objective. I don't plan on mine doing that. I want a blob that can move to midfield and take an objective, and that's a perfectly reasonable thing to expect 30 guardsmen to do. I don't understand how you say that order efficiency is only of slight benefit to the blob. There's a lot of 4+ cover saves out there. Removing them is a 100% firepower efficiency for a squad. You can order two blobs per turn with a single CCS, getting you ~six squad's worth of weapons ignoring cover instead of two. Throw in Divination and blobs seriously outshoot MSU per point. Similarly, you say the shoot+run order is one of your favorites. Would you rather be able to advance (or withdraw) 20-30 guys or 10?
Just as a mathematical comparison, look at this blob:
3 squads, 3 bolters, 3 plasma guns, 3 meltabombs, vox, plasma priest: 258
vs these guys in MSU format
4 squads, 4 bolters, 4 plasma guns: 264
Without supporting units, the MSU has 25% more lasguns (same number of plasma guns), 25% more bodies, is much worse in close combat, and will occasionally lose elements to failed morale checks, but does have some interesting advantages Alairos listed above.
The thing is, the first group can blob up or it can remain separate if the mission favors it. The second group blobbing up is still powerful, but will has a huge leadership liability if it does. I know kill points are only 1 in 6 missions, but I don't want to ever just have to admit defeat turn 1 in any mission.
I'll concede that blobs can be pulled off of objectives, although a blob with Prescience can defend an objective mightily. I'll also note that a blob can't provide a cover save to itself, although this is less important because lots of stuff these days can get around cover. Sometimes, though, that ability to assault can be a huge boon. You can deny and even take an objective that way, you can hide in combat, or tie up a valuable enemy unit.
I don't mean to say MSU is flat out bad. I just think blobs bring a lot of options to the table that MSU don't.
HWS teams with Fire On My Target, that can now be issued twice a phase is a strong counter to Wave Serpents, taking away their precious 4+ cover saves. And before you whinge at me about leadership you can always take a Lord Commissar to give both HWS LD10.
Aura of discipline is no more for order tests. Only for Fear, Morale and Pinning Tests.
HWS teams with Fire On My Target, that can now be issued twice a phase is a strong counter to Wave Serpents, taking away their precious 4+ cover saves. And before you whinge at me about leadership you can always take a Lord Commissar to give both HWS LD10.
Aura of discipline is no more for order tests. Only for Fear, Morale and Pinning Tests.
Dang. Creed is the only other way to improve the odds of getting those order bonuses, since he gets re-rolls on the orders.
The idea of Pask in a Punisher along with 2 Leman Russ Exterminators splitting fire and then the whole unit having a chance to reroll to hit with psychic powers is terrifying.
HWS teams with Fire On My Target, that can now be issued twice a phase is a strong counter to Wave Serpents, taking away their precious 4+ cover saves. And before you whinge at me about leadership you can always take a Lord Commissar to give both HWS LD10.
Aura of discipline is no more for order tests. Only for Fear, Morale and Pinning Tests.
Dang. Creed is the only other way to improve the odds of getting those order bonuses, since he gets re-rolls on the orders.
False. The Commissar Tank from the Armored Battlegroup makes any Imperial Guard unit within 12" Leadership 10.
Blobs vs MSU is an interesting debate, and I think the advantages of both sides have been pretty well outlined by now. The best bit, however, is that you don't have to commit yourself to one or the other until deployment. Admittedly, there are some options (multiple priests/Commissars) that lend themselves to blobs more, but on the whole, you won't lose an awful lot compared to the versatility of choosing.
Times I would use blobs:
- Against shooty armies like Tau to try and mitigate leadership issues from heavy firepower.
- When planning on playing aggressively, as with Forward For The Emperor you can advance blobs far faster than MSU.
- When using allies for buffs- better point-for-point return on investment.
- In KP missions for obvious reasons.
Times I would use MSU:
- Against CC-heavy armies. You aren't ever beating orks or Nids in CC with Guard, so you might as well get more speedbumps .
- On boards with a lot of terrain. MSU is easier to manoeuvre and less likely to logjam itself.
- In missions where you're planning to win on objectives rather than a stand-up fight. If you know you're outclassed, then splitting up and trying to survive one unit at a time is probably a better option.
I don't see blobs being all that great versus eldar serpent shields and Riptides' ion accelerators (ignoring cover as well). Seems like the new IG will matchup better versus Tau than eldar.
Hollismason wrote: They army has a veritable cornucopia of ignore cover abilities, which seems specifically designed to deal with annoying 2+ rerollable cover saves.
With orders, Wyverns, etc.. etc.. I mean it really denies you that cover save.
But str 4 ap 6 means more than no cover saves.
I'd rather take my chances with str 9 and 10 pie plates.
Wait, blobs move faster than MSU? Are we talking platoon MSU or mechanized? Because I see little reason to run MSU without transports, which gives them worlds of mobility ahead of blobs. Least of all wasting an order on moving.
Blobs are not going to be reliable in capturing an enemy's backfield objectives, but are going to be very good at capturing midfield.
An aegis line placed midfield will make them very difficult to dislodge. Once midfield a blob + conscripts can lay down an obscene # of shots out to 24" with LD9 commissar bubble and FRFSRF.
MC can tarpit most blobs. Allied white scars or Celistine for hit and run make that a terrible idea. Charging a mid field blob that has hit and run with a MC will likely result in the blob getting 3D6" of free movement forward moving the blob from midfield to 2" from the enemy deployment zone and the blob charging backfield objective holders.
With 36 point sniper SWS and 12" of PCS orders range it's also easy to run blob and MSU at the same time. The extra range on the PCS means it can stay in your deployment zone and issue FRFSRF to blobs or conscripts midfield.
obsidiankatana wrote: Wait, blobs move faster than MSU? Are we talking platoon MSU or mechanized? Because I see little reason to run MSU without transports, which gives them worlds of mobility ahead of blobs. Least of all wasting an order on moving.
In terms of infantry, yes, as you can order the whole lot to shoot+run or a 3d6-pick-the-highest Run. Of course transports change this, but then you're factoring in a lot of extra cost and I was talking specifically about infantry.
Maybe it's just me, but running 3 10man groups of guardsman up the board footslog style seems like a terrible idea all around. I wouldn't consider running MSU guard without vets or swarms of platoon guard in chimera.
obsidiankatana wrote: Maybe it's just me, but running 3 10man groups of guardsman up the board footslog style seems like a terrible idea all around. I wouldn't consider running MSU guard without vets or swarms of platoon guard in chimera.
Which is why you use blobs to move up. MSU works better as a defensive tool, as each enemy attack can kill a maximum of 10 guys. Of course running them across the board will get them killed, but MSU are easier to hide and harder to completely eradicate if you put your mind to keeping them alive. Split up, block units with others, use them as speedbumps, and you can get a fair bit of army-wide survivability at the expense of firepower.
Im still stinking about Scions... what I dislike is fact I had to make them allies to use their own codex.
So... maybe they can still work in their Elite AM version... maybe stuck them with (lord) commisar to Vendetta and bring their plasma love to the target? Or drive taurox/ chimera with augur fast forward and deep strike them there? Or Hellhound?
UlrikDecado wrote: Im still stinking about Scions... what I dislike is fact I had to make them allies to use their own codex.
So... maybe they can still work in their Elite AM version... maybe stuck them with (lord) commisar to Vendetta and bring their plasma love to the target? Or drive taurox/ chimera with augur fast forward and deep strike them there? Or Hellhound?
Im digging the auger on a hellhound and deep striking a full platoon. 10 special weapons baby!
Biophysical wrote:I don't mean to say MSU is flat out bad. I just think blobs bring a lot of options to the table that MSU don't.
How dare you have a nuanced opinion!
Seriously, though, I hope the arguments for blobs are stronger than MSU. It would be nice to be able to run blobs again without feeling silly.
Still, it needs an adversary, so I digress...
Biophysical wrote: Removing them is a 100% firepower efficiency for a squad. You can order two blobs per turn with a single CCS, getting you ~six squad's worth of weapons ignoring cover instead of two. Throw in Divination and blobs seriously outshoot MSU per point. Similarly, you say the shoot+run order is one of your favorites. Would you rather be able to advance (or withdraw) 20-30 guys or 10?
Yes, the percentage is high, but we're still going from 1 to 2 in the base case. That's still just an increase of 1. Plus there's still the fire focus and overkill. I'd rather have three lascannons pointing at three different venoms than having all 3 point at a single one, even if it gives one or two more of them tank hunters. The bigger the blob gets, the more efficiency of orders, but the greater chance of overkill. Likewise, pooling all 30 dudes can give all of them a 4++, but it also makes it so that your opponent only needs to focus on one unit instead of splitting fire. If the other 20 dudes didn't even get shot at in the first place, then they have effectively a 1++.
I suppose we could really frame it like this. MSU is better in every way, but if blobs can get enough extra killing power (or some other aggregate benefit), then it might be worth it to take all those disadvantages if at least you kill stuff better. The question is if enough of a case can really be made. Just having the chance of accepting orders on more guys doesn't quite cut it for me. Not if it's just getting a few extra tank hunters shots or making it so infantry that aren't going to make it anywhere without being killed get there slightly faster. There needs to be a bigger narrative here.
Biophysical wrote: Just as a mathematical comparison, look at this blob:
3 squads, 3 bolters, 3 plasma guns, 3 meltabombs, vox, plasma priest: 258
vs these guys in MSU format
4 squads, 4 bolters, 4 plasma guns: 264
So, what's the purpose of this?
I mean, I get the idea of hiding a bunch of expensive-yet-scoring lascannons somewhere and pretending that they're an HS slot. But what you're setting up here is either one of two things. Either it's a defensive weapon (hide somewhere and then spring out of the bushes and shoot plasma), but if that's the case, why not give them lascannons, and then we're back to where we started. The other side of this is that you actually want to move these guys somewhere. Somewhere where you're going to be close enough to double-tap plasma and maybe get into close combat.
If you're wanting to get somewhere then the most important factor is durability. You have to actually survive long enough to get there. The blob doesn't have to deal with morale (but that's also alleviatable through things outside of this vacuum, like a nearby regimental standard - plus, most guard squads tend to get butchered to a man (or nearly that) before they break and run), but the blob does have to deal with 9 fewer models.
Because what happens when you put this up against tau? In this case, the blob hurts, rather than helps, because now markerlights only need to attach to a single squad (among overkill problems, etc.), and you have fewer dudes. In both cases, you're talking about missileside or pulse weapons blowing them clean off the board in approximately one turn of shooting. What happens when you're up against bolter banner DA? Against wave serpent spam Eldar? Against mass, mass BS4 Ap5 dark eldar splinternado?
Why should we expect guardsmen to make it up to mid-field, much less to the other side, or to survive to the end of the game? How do blobs solve this problem?
With Inq. and PP Divination bots (about 350 pts wise) your going to hit a 4++ save for blob (about 8-9 chances of rolling a 4)
your Lascannon blobs with priest, PP coupled with orders will make short work of most things shooting
The primary issue your running into with blobs is time.
you have about 2.25-2.5 hours to complete a game, meaning after you roll all your traits/psychic powers/sides/mission/etc. plus you and your opponets initial deployment. you have about 3x 20-25 minute turns. which means in a tournament setting you have to be able to seize said objectives by at least turn 3
Obviously if you play non competitive its a non factor, but running blobs in a tournament can be....frustrating
vs. vets with maxed doctrines you get 2 vet squads with camo/carapace/lascannon/3x plasma for 300 points on the nose.
for "roughly" the same we can get 3 inf squads 3xplasma/3x lascannon/3x power axes (not counting your aditional scoring unit PCS for about 38 points)
you can only divinate bot one unit, you can only run 3 priests, orders can be split equally, but I think I would take the Inf Blob based off of Wave Serpents and MC alone. priests with power axes or Hammerhand Inq make blob very killy in HtoH
but again your usually only hitting turn 4 at the max.
UlrikDecado wrote: Im still stinking about Scions... what I dislike is fact I had to make them allies to use their own codex.
So... maybe they can still work in their Elite AM version... maybe stuck them with (lord) commisar to Vendetta and bring their plasma love to the target? Or drive taurox/ chimera with augur fast forward and deep strike them there? Or Hellhound?
Im digging the auger on a hellhound and deep striking a full platoon. 10 special weapons baby!
I think this could end up being a very good option. You only have to worry about 1 reserve roll, removing the weakness of coming in piecemeal that multiple ST squads had before, and only fill one Elite slot, meaning you've got space to take Bullgryns or Ratlings.
Ailaros wrote:
Because what happens when you put this up against tau? In this case, the blob hurts, rather than helps, because now markerlights only need to attach to a single squad (among overkill problems, etc.), and you have fewer dudes. In both cases, you're talking about missileside or pulse weapons blowing them clean off the board in approximately one turn of shooting. What happens when you're up against bolter banner DA? Against wave serpent spam Eldar? Against mass, mass BS4 Ap5 dark eldar splinternado?
True, blobs do struggle as much if not more than MSU against those type of fairly static, mass-small-arms lists, but at that point, you can just make the call not to blob and run MSU, depending on the opponent. That's the real power of Combined squads, that fact that you can tailor to your opponent before the game begins, depending on what you're up against, what the table looks like, how confident you feel with attack/defence and a bunch of other variables.
There are certainly situations that favour blobs, like one-squad buffs such as Orders, Psychic powers or ally tricks. There are situations that favour MSU, such as when no amount of buffs will allow you to outshoot/outfight your opponent and the emphasis is on survivability. But the fact you don't have to commit yourself to one or the other means that you have the ability to make an informed decision pre-game and plan accordingly.
Biophysical wrote:I don't mean to say MSU is flat out bad. I just think blobs bring a lot of options to the table that MSU don't.
Why should we expect guardsmen to make it up to mid-field, much less to the other side, or to survive to the end of the game? How do blobs solve this problem?
Numbers and expendability. 60 Guardsmen in a pair of 30 blobs, 6 melta bombs, and 100 conscripts=630 points. We also have to buy 2 PCS which gives us 2 more sets of orders, and may as well buy 4 sniper rifle SWS while we are at it (128 for the 4 SWS squads).
There's probably a 25 point commissar in there somewhere that can't detach from a conscript squad. The priests can always jump ship to a fresh unit after too many casualties.
Move the aegis up to midfield, toss out lots of FRFSRF, and watch an opponent struggle to kill that many guardsmen with shooting. Even a good shooting army will struggle to kill 160 guardsmen and have enough dakka left to sweep the 6 MSUPCS and SWS holding your backfield. CC units would risk getting swarmed by priest buffed guardsmen.
There is also the option to attach an inquisitor with scout to outflank 50 conscripts and a priest. They don't need to sweep clean the enemy deployment zone, just sweep troops off or survive to contest an objective.
It's not the end all be all I autowin against everyone list, but it is a competitive all comers list
RegulusBlack wrote:With Inq. and PP Divination bots (about 350 pts wise) your going to hit a 4++ save for blob (about 8-9 chances of rolling a 4)
your Lascannon blobs with priest, PP coupled with orders will make short work of most things shooting
But congratulations, you just spent 350 points on a couple of lascannons. MSU would handle this much better, as you'd get a lot more lascannons, and a lot more bodies. More durable and with more killing power, in this case.
And stationary blobs don't take very long because you basically never move them. Running up-field blobs are certainly more tricky, but it goes a lot faster once your opponent all but tables your army turn 3. It doesnt' take very much time to move dead guardsmen.
Paradigm wrote:There are situations that favour MSU, such as when no amount of buffs will allow you to outshoot/outfight your opponent and the emphasis is on survivability. But the fact you don't have to commit yourself to one or the other means that you have the ability to make an informed decision pre-game and plan accordingly.
But now you've wasted hundreds of points on priest, commissars, and psykers that aren't fulfilling the role that you took them in the first place for.
Is there even any point in Commissars anymore though, now that Priests give fearless for the same price? It seems a bit silly.
The priest even comes with massive unit CC buffs, and can become AP2, whereas the Commissar at best is taking a power axe which puts him at I1 and gives him S4, but the Priest can beat that still by doubling his strength to 6.
The Priest is harder to kill even - at best the Commissar has a camo cloak or carapace, the Priest always gets a 4+ invulnerable. What am I missing?
Commissars can take power fists now, which means they get S6 Ap2 without having to pass a leadership test first. They also give you the ability to go to ground and give you some ability to fail morale tests if you'd ever want to do that, for some reason.
I do agree, though, priests are usually going to be better.
Mr.Omega wrote: Is there even any point in Commissars anymore though, now that Priests give fearless for the same price? It seems a bit silly.
The priest even comes with massive unit CC buffs, and can become AP2, whereas the Commissar at best is taking a power axe which puts him at I1 and gives him S4, but the Priest can beat that still by doubling his strength to 6.
The Priest is harder to kill even - at best the Commissar has a camo cloak or carapace, the Priest always gets a 4+ invulnerable. What am I missing?
Commisar is more classy!
And, I use Get to the Ground a lot, which fearless denies, so in some units, I will go for commisar. For CC, yeah, Priest, no question, but I dont plan to CC, because his Ld7 will fail me every time (and humans are still squishy)...and dont talk to me about statistic! And BS4 isnt half bad...well, depends on the unit, I guess...and my obsession with commisars...
What is the point of having regular infantry squads anyway (apart the fluff), as veterans cost only ten points more now? Or if you want platoon commands, then at least there is no point having more than the minimum two squads per PCS, as veteran squads are just better infantry squads at bargain price.
RegulusBlack wrote:With Inq. and PP Divination bots (about 350 pts wise) your going to hit a 4++ save for blob (about 8-9 chances of rolling a 4)
your Lascannon blobs with priest, PP coupled with orders will make short work of most things shooting
But congratulations, you just spent 350 points on a couple of lascannons. MSU would handle this much better, as you'd get a lot more lascannons, and a lot more bodies. More durable and with more killing power, in this case.
And stationary blobs don't take very long because you basically never move them. Running up-field blobs are certainly more tricky, but it goes a lot faster once your opponent all but tables your army turn 3. It doesnt' take very much time to move dead guardsmen.
Paradigm wrote:There are situations that favour MSU, such as when no amount of buffs will allow you to outshoot/outfight your opponent and the emphasis is on survivability. But the fact you don't have to commit yourself to one or the other means that you have the ability to make an informed decision pre-game and plan accordingly.
But now you've wasted hundreds of points on priest, commissars, and psykers that aren't fulfilling the role that you took them in the first place for.
Oh, also, commissars have a higher Ld, so they make stuff pass orders better.
Really, it seems that it's commissars for stuff hanging back (orders, hiding in cover), and priests for charging forward (fearless, better in CC, extra special weapon).
Paradigm wrote:There are situations that favour MSU, such as when no amount of buffs will allow you to outshoot/outfight your opponent and the emphasis is on survivability. But the fact you don't have to commit yourself to one or the other means that you have the ability to make an informed decision pre-game and plan accordingly.
But now you've wasted hundreds of points on priest, commissars, and psykers that aren't fulfilling the role that you took them in the first place for.
I think 'hundreds of points' is something of an overstatement, maybe 200-odd at most. Any more than that in a 1500 list and I'd say you're probably spending too much on support units anyway.
Psykers are easy to find a use for, as there will always be something to benefit from Prescience, either tanks, arty or Vets. Commissars with the 6" bubble can still feasibly cover 2-3 units if you need them too. Priests, I admit, are a bit more of a dead weight, but if you've also got some conscripts that's a good place for them.
Ailaros, what are MSU, small units that are flooding the field, they are beneficial based on the fact of target de-saturation, I can only kill 5 units a turn, MSU has 20 units so I should survive till turn 4.
However they also suffer from target desaturation based on available Force Multipliers are also limited. So they trade a little survivability, but are offensively limited as well.
By going Blobs (3x, 4x or even 5x Squads) you alleviate the force multiplier issue for target redundancy.
I think that if they are going to blow your blob off the board, they are going to blow your MSU units off just as easy, and while it might take more time you may not have the killing power to affect the eventual outcome if you go MSU.
Zengu wrote: Has anyone tried the improved death strike missile yet?
Take one of your Leman Russ Squadrons and give them long ranged weaponry and camp them around the Deathstrike. Sit back and bombard until its able to fire, watched this happen last night and it literally wiped out 3 quarters of a Tau Gunline army!
In regards to the MSU vs Blob argument going on, if you are going MSU utilize Chimeras for mobility and 12 armor shields, your guys do not even need to be mounted inside of them but could use it as a mobile form of fire support and cover. Personally I still like the idea of Veterans in Chimeras for MSU but can see the benefit of utilizing standard platoons as well. Blob IG tactics work great for defensive and mid field objectives but struggle to reach your opponents backfield, that is where you ally in a formation of Scion (they are troops in it) or put a few squads of Veterans or if you want to keep it cheap, Special Weapon Squads in a Flyer and have them focus on backfield objectives.
You can't think of any time when you might want a squad of guardsmen to break and run? Like maybe when a super awesome cc unit is bearing down on you and you need a turn to shoot them?
Crimson wrote: What is the point of having regular infantry squads anyway (apart the fluff), as veterans cost only ten points more now? Or if you want platoon commands, then at least there is no point having more than the minimum two squads per PCS, as veteran squads are just better infantry squads at bargain price.
Crimson wrote: What is the point of having regular infantry squads anyway (apart the fluff), as veterans cost only ten points more now? Or if you want platoon commands, then at least there is no point having more than the minimum two squads per PCS, as veteran squads are just better infantry squads at bargain price.
1) You can get squads bigger than 10 men.
2) You can unlock other platoon elements, the most useful of which are Conscripts and Sabres.
3) In larger games, your 6 Troops slots can actually fill up with Vets. Platoons allow you to get more firepower/bodies per FOC slot.
What about middle-sized infantry squad blobs? We have talked about the merits of MSU versus "true" blobs, but could there be a point to having 20 or 30 guardsmen in a unit, finding a "sweet spot" between unit cost, efficiency with orders and buffs, and frailty? Also, what about using mid-size blobs in lots of different platoons in order to maximize number of PCSs?
Why should we expect guardsmen to make it up to mid-field, much less to the other side, or to survive to the end of the game? How do blobs solve this problem?
Blobs don't solve this problem, but neither does MSU. The rest of the army solves this problem. These troops are there to score and defend the midfield objectives. The rest of your army has to help them by cutting the worst bits out of the enemy army fast enough to keep enough of your units alive. But that's the real trick with any army, right? Personally, I want to try out armored sentinels. They are tough and punchy for their points. Tough, cheap, mobile lascannons go a long way toward solving a lot of problems. Against the aforementioned Tau, they'll tear up broadside suits or help provide mobile cover for advancing infantry.
Anyone give any thought to Straken for an assault-oriented guard list? His Counter-attack and Furious Charge bubble may have some potential. Coupled with rad + psychotroke inquisitors, power axes, meltabombs, and priests... you can have two blobs of doom.
Also we need to take into account Allies and Formations if we want to really get in depth into this, for Allies one of the best I have seen is taking Azrael from the Dark Angels and tossing him into a squad of x50 Guardsmen or Conscripts. Run them up the table and you have a MASSIVE tarpit to deal with those pesky Wraith Knights, FMC, ect.
1. Special weapon squads can take 3 demo charge and the ignore cover order...
2. 3 divination psychers can guide 3 manticores...
3. Storm troopers lost infiltrate/scout!!!!
Unit1126PLL wrote: Also people seem to forget that the ABG commissar tank still grants ld 10 for orders in a 12" bubble....
Which gets me excited for when they FAQ/update the ABG list to reflect the new point values and such.
Who doesn't want an even cheaper pair of Beast Hunter-quishers as your warlord? And even cheaper troop tanks?
IKR? I am so excited to see what they do!
Cause what's better than Pask/Tank commanders with tank orders?
The same thing with beast hunter shells, co-axial weapons, extra HP, and troop tanks.
Still a shame about the Hydra. Really the Vendetta will remain the top contender in the FA slot for being the only viable source of anti-tank native to the book.
The book's fluff is kind of sad...nothing about my beloved Mordians except a one line blurb under a picture.
I think this codex, overall, is a sidegrade at best. Whatever combinations exist that make it competitive still don't make me any happier about all the cut units/characters and strange nerfs/absence of buffs on units that need it.
I'm not sure we need a vendetta for anti tank anymore.
A bs4 commissar can man a quad gun or icarus lascannon.
Armored sentinels are a decent lc platform that start on the board and can get an easy 4+ save..
Platoon LC can be vicious. 140 for 2 or 210 for 3. Could also attach the unit to a quad/ici lc. The ability to combine prescience and ignore cover/tank hunters make them really solid. Plus they are a scoring unit. They are a bit more expensive than other anti tank options, but they are a 20 to 30 wound thick scoring unit.
Well, you don't know how they're going to fix it. It's not a guarantee that the forgeworld version will get a points cost. There's not even a guarantee that the commissar tank will still get a leadership bubble.
Biophysical wrote:Blobs don't solve this problem, but neither does MSU. The rest of the army solves this problem.
Blobs are, at best, merely equal to MSU here. But even that's not true, because MSU are still more survivable because you get more stuff due to lower costs.
Not that MSU is the magic answer to all its own problems. Foot guard is really weak right now, but it seems that blobs are just a weaker form of an already weak army style.
schadenfreude wrote:Conscripts is the new black.
As an IC bus?
I don't know... I feel like sniping barrage weapons and precision shots would still grind you down.
Maybe. If only the conscripts themselves weren't so useless. I guess you could do this with naked blobs... but still...
I guess you could take 100 guardsmen (50 guardsmen, 50 conscripts), and have it all run forward and then retire the ICs as needed to the rearward squad. Displacement would be a nightmare, and it would basically be guaranteed extra-casualties (which would offset the durability of bringing that many in the first place). Plus, are the characters themselves going to be doing enough damage? And they're still not hidden...
Blacksails wrote:The other option is to ignore anti-air entirely and play the ground game.
I'd also note that a LC/MM vanquisher is basically the same price as a vendetta. In a 1 on 1, I'm not certain the vendetta would win, and against ground targets, the vanquisher is a little better (not quite as many hits, but better hits when it does).
Ailaros wrote: Well, you don't know how they're going to fix it. It's not a guarantee that the forgeworld version will get a points cost. There's not even a guarantee that the commissar tank will still get a leadership bubble.
The other option is to ignore anti-air entirely and play the ground game.
The second option is actually viable nowadays, since Mech Vets probably aren't "the thing" anymore. The Heldrake was the biggest flying threat to that army since you'd have situations where it could Vector Strike a Chimera open, then flame the dudes inside.
If you're running nothing but Russes and a foot-star, you can pretty much ignore the things. The CSM player is stuck either killing a couple of Joes or trying to glance AV13 with the Vector Strikes, and the Baleflamer is no more threatening to the unit than a regular flamer.
I hope that at least the beast hunter stays .... IG kind of needs something like that against some MC. Depending on the build of guard... On another note I'm sad they did not get give anything of ours interceptor.
Yeah, plus its appealing just doubling down and spending those 340pts on more russes instead of a pair of 'Dettas.
That, and personally, Vendettas have always felt like an all or nothing thing. I either want to go balls out on an Elysian Valk spam list, or not run them at all. I don't want to buy a new case just to haul a few around.
schadenfreude wrote: If you're going to mostly ignore air a pair of astropaths and an icarus might be adequate.
-2 to reserves will really put a hurt on triple helldrake/cron air.
A single icarus doesn't look like much. I wouldn't even intercept with it. The next turn though prescience + bring it down=deadly.
Astropaths don't cause a minus to reserve rolls, MotF can pick to either +1 AM reserve rolls or -1 enemy reserve rolls but has to pass a leadership to do either
And they have to pass a leadership test to do it, so it's not exactly a for-sure thing. You also still have to take two CCSs to get two of them as well.
The prescience icarus of anger sounds like a good idea, though. Especially convenient that the psyker himself is BS4.
I don't know... I feel like sniping barrage weapons and precision shots would still grind you down.
Maybe. If only the conscripts themselves weren't so useless. I guess you could do this with naked blobs... but still...
I guess you could take 100 guardsmen (50 guardsmen, 50 conscripts), and have it all run forward and then retire the ICs as needed to the rearward squad. Displacement would be a nightmare, and it would basically be guaranteed extra-casualties (which would offset the durability of bringing that many in the first place). Plus, are the characters themselves going to be doing enough damage? And they're still not hidden...
It's more of an IC shortbus for 1 priest and maybe 1 allied character with hit and run. I think the key is to keep conscripts cheap.
I'm thinking more along the line of a pair of double LC mini 20 blobs that stay in my deployment zone to hold objectives & tank hunt, 4 sniper SWS also for objective camping, and 2 blocks of conscripts for midfield control.
The IC can stay in the rearward squad until they need to join the conscripts or in the conscripts depending on the situation. Shooting LD tests are all good as long as the conscripts are within 6" of a lord commissar. If CC seems eminent all conscripts need is a single priest.
Protecting an IC can be accomplished by hiding the IC out of LOS. All a priest needs to do is be in the unit.
As far as the usefulness of conscripts they pay 9 points per flashlight hit (divided by # of shots) compared to 10 points (divided by # of shots) for regular guardsmen. On a point for point basis they hit 60% harder in CC than regular guardsmen against WS3 and WS4 opponents. They are mostly there to FRFSRF, but if something gets to close swarms of conscripts can be deadly to anything that's not a MC. Against MC they need hit n run. A space marine captain on a bike with a pfist will also go nuts against a MC once he gains hatred and shred, hit n run out, and allow the rest of the army to gun it down.
schadenfreude wrote: If you're going to mostly ignore air a pair of astropaths and an icarus might be adequate.
-2 to reserves will really put a hurt on triple helldrake/cron air.
A single icarus doesn't look like much. I wouldn't even intercept with it. The next turn though prescience + bring it down=deadly.
Astropaths don't cause a minus to reserve rolls, MotF can pick to either +1 AM reserve rolls or -1 enemy reserve rolls but has to pass a leadership to do either
I meant OOF, and they have a 5/6 chance of passing LD tests because of the company commander's ld9. The odds are good of both passing their roll.
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Ailaros wrote: And they have to pass a leadership test to do it, so it's not exactly a for-sure thing. You also still have to take two CCSs to get two of them as well.
The prescience icarus of anger sounds like a good idea, though. Especially convenient that the psyker himself is BS4.
Ow yea I forgot he's BS4. I also like you're nickname for it.
A pair of CCS sounds really nice to me. That's 4 sets of orders and 2 squads with access to lots of special weapons. Then again I'm not thinking of taking scions or Leman Russ tanks so I won't be as scrapped for points.
Zengu wrote: Has anyone tried the improved death strike missile yet?
Take one of your Leman Russ Squadrons and give them long ranged weaponry and camp them around the Deathstrike. Sit back and bombard until its able to fire, watched this happen last night and it literally wiped out 3 quarters of a Tau Gunline army!
Unfortunately the Death Strike is still worthless (but fun specially if you put up a great show when rolling to fire ) A player that keeps castled up when a Death Strike is on the table is a player that can't grasp basic concepts like 1+1=2. The Death Strike is a really fun thing to bring to a casual game but the average player that sees an IG list with it will spread around and rush the IG lines ASAP, it's not like the IG is the ultimate CC army after all and even Tau have better chances at assaulting the damn thing than waiting for the pie plate to wipe them out in one go.
The other option is to ignore anti-air entirely and play the ground game.
To quote myself from the other thread:
TheCaptain wrote: I think that provided you are not using The Vendetta mainly as a transport (and why would you be) a squadron of 3 Twin-Linked Lascannons at T7 with a 3+ armor/4+ Aegis Line (You are taking an Aegis line, right?) may rival the Vendetta for IG's premier tank-hunter/anti-air.
Vendetta:
-Hit on 6's
-Can Jink for 5+
-Can Maneouvre for better shots on AV -Transport
Sabrex3:
-Scout move
-Can get Tank/Monster Hunter (As well as the other solid orders)
-20 Points cheaper
-9 Wound unit that can't be instakilled/exploded by non-force/D
-Benefits from Aegis Line
-Interceptor
-Shoots turn 1
-Doesn't take FOC
It seems that if all you're looking For is three twin-linked Lascannons, we have a clear winner in both staying power and damage output. Think it over, Dakka. I think this price hike will see even more Sabres in lists nowadays.
The Vendetta is no longer the best anti-tank/anti-air. It is merely a contender
It seems that if all you're looking For is three twin-linked Lascannons, we have a clear winner in both staying power and damage output. Think it over, Dakka. I think this price hike will see even more Sabres in lists nowadays.
The Vendetta is no longer the best anti-tank/anti-air. It is merely a contender
I always forget about Sabres.
Yeah, they are pretty outstanding. Works well by having a whole platoon to sit around a home objective shooting lascannons. Add a few measures of mech vets, and liberal Russes to taste. Stir, and let simmer for an hour.
schadenfreude wrote: I meant OOF, and they have a 5/6 chance of passing LD tests because of the company commander's ld9. The odds are good of both passing their roll.
The model has to take the test, not the unit. So it is on LD 7. Unless I am misunderstanding the rule, which would be nice.
I'm not too worried about MCs getting into close combat with conscripts. Even if by some happenstance they did, conscripts are now cheap enough that I wouldn't get too bothered even if they did. The priest just keeps on denying the challenge and passing out fearless. Sounds like a permanently tarpitted MC.
The biggest threats to conscripts are going to be multi-shot Ap5 en-masse. And there's an awful lot of mass to that.
And really, what are the conscripts going to do? They're not going to bring down tanks or fliers, that's for sure. I guess you can throw a lot of orders at them, but they're still so flakey. They still just have BS2 lasguns, what does it matter if you can give them...
... monster hunter. Hang on. 50 conscripts, 100 shots, 33 hits, 10 wounds. Hmm... And FRF is 50 hits, so 25 armor saves against T4.
The big problem, though, is that there's nothing to make them good against vehicles, now that priests lost their eviscerators and frag grenades are only S3. And throwing in some meltabombs means that you're running into problems where the meltabombs need to be in the front to get used at all, but wound allocation means you lose those meltabombs right away. Commissars can now take powerfists, but same problem. Less so if there are meltabomb sergeants, but that means spending nearly twice as many points on them to make them infantry squads.
You'd also have to have an insane number of models, of course, but that's not a tactical concern other than if you're up against blast weapons, but even the wyvern is going to struggle to make points back against conscripts.
What are we all thinking about vets, particularly in chimeras?
Still planning on running 3x specials, or doing 2x special plus heavy flamer due to the chimeras two firepoints? Grenadiers a reasonable option, or the cheaper the vets, the better they are?
I find myself lamenting the loss of easy twin linking with bring it down. Monster hunter and tank hunter are pretty awesome don't get me wrong, but I think they benefit veterans more than they benefit regular Guardsmen. Re-rolling penetration rolls and wounds won't help if you can't actually hit your targets in the first place. Yes, we can take a primaris psyker for prescience, but this only works on one unit a turn.
I don't mean to sound like a downer, it might just be a case of resistance to change Guess it's time for a little harmless experimentation.
Mechvets didn't change that much. If you really need the third special weapon to shoot, then pop them out of the transport. If you do that, then suddenly they can receive orders, which are better now. And you still don't need to get them out if only two plasma or melta guns will suffice.
And if you want them to camp and shoot a lascannon, they do this exactly as well now as they did before.
Blacksails wrote: What are we all thinking about vets, particularly in chimeras?
Still planning on running 3x specials, or doing 2x special plus heavy flamer due to the chimeras two firepoints? Grenadiers a reasonable option, or the cheaper the vets, the better they are?
I like the better armor saves on vets for plasma gunner and the death rate for me from chimeras are down. Cant say about meta vets with the armor.
Ailaros wrote: Mechvets didn't change that much. If you really need the third special weapon to shoot, then pop them out of the transport. If you do that, then suddenly they can receive orders, which are better now. And you still don't need to get them out if only two plasma or melta guns will suffice.
And if you want them to camp and shoot a lascannon, they do this exactly as well now as they did before.
That's what I'm thinking too. I'm pleased the heavy flamer is at least an option worth considering, as are the doctrines, though I'll likely just stick to my standard 3x specials. Also saves me from modelling carapace.
schadenfreude wrote: I meant OOF, and they have a 5/6 chance of passing LD tests because of the company commander's ld9. The odds are good of both passing their roll.
The model has to take the test, not the unit. So it is on LD 7. Unless I am misunderstanding the rule, which would be nice.
Current understanding of the BRB is models always use the highest LD in the squad for unit or individual tests. There was some debate about it with AS/Inquisition priests, but it seems that the highest LD is always used unless it's a psychic tests.
Blacksails wrote:That's what I'm thinking too. I'm pleased the heavy flamer is at least an option worth considering, as are the doctrines, though I'll likely just stick to my standard 3x specials. Also saves me from modelling carapace.
Also, when did you become a DCM?
They could always take a heavy flamer, they just worded it more awkwardly in the new codex. That said, it is a little more useful now, I suppose. If you have no intention whatsoever of disembarking, you can make the third vet's weapon a heavy flamer (which is now much cheaper) and have him just sort of chill out and provide overwatch deterrent. They stack with fire barrels too. Don't know how often your chimeras are getting tangled in close combat, though.
And I became a DCM like a week ago, I think. Finally got around to paying for my addiction...
Blacksails wrote:That's what I'm thinking too. I'm pleased the heavy flamer is at least an option worth considering, as are the doctrines, though I'll likely just stick to my standard 3x specials. Also saves me from modelling carapace.
Also, when did you become a DCM?
They could always take a heavy flamer, they just worded it more awkwardly in the new codex. That said, it is a little more useful now, I suppose. If you have no intention whatsoever of disembarking, you can make the third vet's weapon a heavy flamer (which is now much cheaper) and have him just sort of chill out and provide overwatch deterrent. They stack with fire barrels too. Don't know how often your chimeras are getting tangled in close combat, though.
And I became a DCM like a week ago, I think. Finally got around to paying for my addiction...
Oh, I never even thought of being an assault deterrent. At 10pts its tempting, especially if you swap out for shotguns to make a hilarious pseudo assault unit.
I don't know what will be 'best', but I am liking the options so far.
Ailaros wrote: I'm not too worried about MCs getting into close combat with conscripts. Even if by some happenstance they did, conscripts are now cheap enough that I wouldn't get too bothered even if they did. The priest just keeps on denying the challenge and passing out fearless. Sounds like a permanently tarpitted MC.
The biggest threats to conscripts are going to be multi-shot Ap5 en-masse. And there's an awful lot of mass to that.
And really, what are the conscripts going to do? They're not going to bring down tanks or fliers, that's for sure. I guess you can throw a lot of orders at them, but they're still so flakey. They still just have BS2 lasguns, what does it matter if you can give them...
... monster hunter. Hang on. 50 conscripts, 100 shots, 33 hits, 10 wounds. Hmm... And FRF is 50 hits, so 25 armor saves against T4.
The big problem, though, is that there's nothing to make them good against vehicles, now that priests lost their eviscerators and frag grenades are only S3. And throwing in some meltabombs means that you're running into problems where the meltabombs need to be in the front to get used at all, but wound allocation means you lose those meltabombs right away. Commissars can now take powerfists, but same problem. Less so if there are meltabomb sergeants, but that means spending nearly twice as many points on them to make them infantry squads.
You'd also have to have an insane number of models, of course, but that's not a tactical concern other than if you're up against blast weapons, but even the wyvern is going to struggle to make points back against conscripts.
Can they really make it across the table, though?
They only need to make it halfway to FRFSRF 24" into T3/T4 models in the back of an enemy deployment zone and/or hold a mid field objective. Also as an IG player I no longer need to dread the relic as a mission. 50 fearless conscripts advancing towards it is going to cause people problems.
Powerfists are not as good as putting a power maul on a priest. Smash can take the priest to to 1 +1 CCW +1 charge=3attacks at S8 AP2. With hatred they hit rear armor of a vehicle 8/9 times.
creeping-deth87 wrote: I find myself lamenting the loss of easy twin linking with bring it down. Monster hunter and tank hunter are pretty awesome don't get me wrong, but I think they benefit veterans more than they benefit regular Guardsmen. Re-rolling penetration rolls and wounds won't help if you can't actually hit your targets in the first place. Yes, we can take a primaris psyker for prescience, but this only works on one unit a turn.
I don't mean to sound like a downer, it might just be a case of resistance to change Guess it's time for a little harmless experimentation.
its better now, before two CCS's that could "cast" 2 twin link each ,
now you have access to 5 ~50pt pskyers that you can hide in 50 man blobs to twin link AND MH + TH rules!
efficient pts wise, survivable, cool models, very adaptable and effective.
Im loving the chance to model some cool characters for priests and psykers, like you say, experiment a bit, you might be surprised how much you like it!
Ailaros wrote: And really, what are the conscripts going to do?
I think that the offensive power of conscripts is simply a bonus for their primary purpose: getting in between you and your enemy and making them go through them. If my main aim is to have the squad die in turns one and two, why spend more on them than I have to? They keep drop pods away from my tanks, they make it so that assault armies have to go through them first. With their low leadership, it is easy to make sure they break in the enemies assault turn and not yours, simply by killing off the LD booster or moving a lord commissar out of range. A well equipped Guardsman squad is double the cost of a conscript squad but not really any more durable. At worst, they are a cheap and mobile cover save for the infantry behind them with the guns.
I like to imagine using them like a Guard commander would: they are meat. You put the meat in the right place so that it can die in a useful way. You don't expect meat to really do much damage, although if needed you can throw a mass of meat at something and drown it.
For the conscripts, the main thing isnt that there are 50 of them, its that you should have another 50 of then, or normal guard even if you have the pts, backing them up.
I fit 140 guard into my list @1750, easily, plenty of space for specials and tanks,
so with 50 consripts, and 50 GI's, one preist per squad, two inquisitors, three pskers,
SOME armies will shoot the first squad down by turn three when I charge. Even WS spam wont get 100 wounds in 3 turns (assuming 6 WS, lets say above average rolling, 6 no cover wounds per turn, average save 4 wounds per turn, should leave you with 20 guardsmen or more left by turn three when you charge, assuming you didnt go first, (denying the other guy a turn of shooting)
why is that a win?
A. your enemy just spent 3 turns shooting your cheapest unit, and not all the guns shootinghim from the back feild.
B. 20-30 guys, with the prests psykers, and inquisitors, will still cause some damage/distruption ect against most tau/eldar players.
C. you have probably made him hold almost his whole army back in his zone, giving you board control with the other pts you brought.
Surprised I haven't seen much talk of the Auto Tactical Reliquary or whatever it's called.
It's a relic that gives you inspired tactics any time you roll doubles and pass. Inspired tactics by the way, has changed from last edition. It's no longer get one free order that auto passes. Now it's all orders issued FOR THE REST OF THE TURN pass automatically. For an IG army, that is huge. It's still not great odds, but you've got roughly a 1/10 chance of pulling it off every turn. For an infantry army that should be spamming orders like crazy, that's awesome.
Obviously there's the downside of an actual double 1's shutting it off, but it still works as normal that turn as well. Since orders are going to be most important the first couple of turns, I would consider it a worthwhile risk for just 25pts.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Surprised I haven't seen much talk of the Auto Tactical Reliquary or whatever it's called.
It's a relic that gives you inspired tactics any time you roll doubles and pass. Inspired tactics by the way, has changed from last edition. It's no longer get one free order that auto passes. Now it's all orders issued FOR THE REST OF THE TURN pass automatically. For an IG army, that is huge. It's still not great odds, but you've got roughly a 1/10 chance of pulling it off every turn. For an infantry army that should be spamming orders like crazy, that's awesome.
Obviously there's the downside of an actual double 1's shutting it off, but it still works as normal that turn as well. Since orders are going to be most important the first couple of turns, I would consider it a worthwhile risk for just 25pts.
I'm not really a fan of it; I can just imagine always rolling the bonus on the last order of the turn. I would rather spend those 25 points on a vox network. They are much better at making sure orders go off reliably, are not centralised in one squad an look cool.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Surprised I haven't seen much talk of the Auto Tactical Reliquary or whatever it's called.
It's a relic that gives you inspired tactics any time you roll doubles and pass. Inspired tactics by the way, has changed from last edition. It's no longer get one free order that auto passes. Now it's all orders issued FOR THE REST OF THE TURN pass automatically. For an IG army, that is huge. It's still not great odds, but you've got roughly a 1/10 chance of pulling it off every turn. For an infantry army that should be spamming orders like crazy, that's awesome.
Obviously there's the downside of an actual double 1's shutting it off, but it still works as normal that turn as well. Since orders are going to be most important the first couple of turns, I would consider it a worthwhile risk for just 25pts.
1/9 per roll, 2 orders so 2/9 turns it activates. The only downside I see is cheap ld9 bubbles mean orders pass 5/6 times anyways.
Do I get a sticker? Other than the snazzy new title, it seems that's about it, given how little there appears to be in the DCM forums.
schadenfreude wrote: Also as an IG player I no longer need to dread the relic as a mission. 50 fearless conscripts advancing towards it is going to cause people problems.
lol, I'm imagining they just keep passing the relic back like a bucket brigade.
schadenfreude wrote: Powerfists are not as good as putting a power maul on a priest. Smash can take the priest to to 1 +1 CCW +1 charge=3attacks at S8 AP2. With hatred they hit rear armor of a vehicle 8/9 times.
Priests can't take power mauls.
If they had ANY melee weapon upgrade options, I'd be singing a different tune, but they don't.
Trickstick wrote:I like to imagine using them like a Guard commander would: they are meat. You put the meat in the right place so that it can die in a useful way. You don't expect meat to really do much damage, although if needed you can throw a mass of meat at something and drown it.
But meat to what end? The sacrifice is only worth it if you gain something from it.
There's no reason that your opponent can't shoot over your conscripts and just ignore them, whether we're talking gunline, or talking firing meltaguns over bubblewrap at tanks. Plus, bubblewrap makes less sense in a world of more expendable russes (and it wasn't that necessary or useful in the first place). For assaulters, if you even see them anymore, lots of them can fly over stuff, and some stuff can still beat them in close combat (well... eventually). Is it worth it to spend 175 points just for the chance to tarpit something?
This was the problem in the old codex. SitNW was strategic platinum, but even then, they had this problem where the fact that they didn't kill anything almost overcame the fact that they were a permanent scoring unit. Now they're not even that.
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schadenfreude wrote:
MrMoustaffa wrote:Surprised I haven't seen much talk of the Auto Tactical Reliquary or whatever it's called.
1/9 per roll, 2 orders so 2/9 turns it activates. The only downside I see is cheap ld9 bubbles mean orders pass 5/6 times anyways.
Yeah, there might not be that many orders left to auto-pass when it activates in a given turn. Also, the order has to pass. That means that double 5's and 6's won't trigger it (and sometimes double 4's either), and if you get double 1's, the thing breaks.
It seems like this wouldn't wind up doing much a big majority of the time.
Plus, even though orders got better... they're still just orders. If vox sets are still of dubious value, a relic that occasionally works like a vox set isn't going to be THAT great.
Funny fluff, though, and a great modelling opportunity.
I had to take a 2nd look, yep IG priests can't take the power mauls available to AS and Inq.
Looks like the blob just ignores vehicles and shoots scoring units.
Platoons based LC with tank hunters will just have to do the job.
I disagree with the notion that conscipts are just meat. Conscipts have quality through their quantity, and anybody who disagrees by ending their movement phase next to conscipts can find 100 cc attacks is no joke when hate/shred turns that into 75 hits with shred. Conscripts are too slow to relaibly count on getting charges, but anybody wanting to get into cc with the rest of the army is going to need to worry about getting too close to the conscripts.
Trickstick wrote:I like to imagine using them like a Guard commander would: they are meat. You put the meat in the right place so that it can die in a useful way. You don't expect meat to really do much damage, although if needed you can throw a mass of meat at something and drown it.
But meat to what end? The sacrifice is only worth it if you gain something from it.
There's no reason that your opponent can't shoot over your conscripts and just ignore them, whether we're talking gunline, or talking firing meltaguns over bubblewrap at tanks. Plus, bubblewrap makes less sense in a world of more expendable russes (and it wasn't that necessary or useful in the first place). For assaulters, if you even see them anymore, lots of them can fly over stuff, and some stuff can still beat them in close combat (well... eventually). Is it worth it to spend 175 points just for the chance to tarpit something?
This was the problem in the old codex. SitNW was strategic platinum, but even then, they had this problem where the fact that they didn't kill anything almost overcame the fact that they were a permanent scoring unit. Now they're not even that.
You gain time, control over your opponent and one of the most durable scoring units we have.
Without bubble wrap the enemy can obliterate russes in a single charge or drop. Melta drop pods that have combat squad can come down on turn one and wipe out your tanks before they even fire. With infantry, you can make it impossible for the enemy to get within 6" of your tanks on turn one, you can even manage 12", at least from certain angles. You can leave a single weak spot if you want, setting up the enemy to drop where you want them to drop. They also work well to stop the movement of fliers, and those jet bikes and stuff can't fly over them if there is no where to land in a sea of bodies. You don't even need to use 175 point squads. 30 conscripts with a priest or commissar can bubble wrap an entire flank for a turn or two, combined with the 20 Guardsmen you need anyway.
I just think that for controlling the game and the avenues that the enemy has to attack you, infantry is key. That makes the cheapest infantry in the Codex, which is just as survivable as more expensive squads, full of uses.
Aileros, I don't understand your disdain for blob guard now.
Ok, 50 conscripts w/ priest = 175. thats slightly more expensive then a tooled SMTac squad, its a melta vet squad w/ a chim and carapace
Yeah, they have BS2, but there is 50 of them. They march towards an objective.
If they get shot, good, they make it so other units heading towards the same objective arent shot.
If they don't get shot, good, they got closer to the objective.
FMC charges them, good, thing probably cost more then the conscripts.
Tooled CC squad hits them, good, they're stuck there for at least 2 turns.
50 Fearless bodies on an objective is pretty hard to remove or eliminate the chance of them contesting, unless your marching them in close order drill just for flamers and templates.
and not make half the table? you can easily start 12" on, then move lets say an average of 8" (w/ run) on the first turn. that gives you 20", turn 2, you move 6". your at the center line.
Okay, I'm starting to get the idea of "powerless blobs" congealing. Power blobs only worked because of hidden power weapons, but what if the burden of killing power were put on the regular, non-powered attacks.
The main problem I'm still seeing, though, is vehicles, especially mech gunlines. I know the moment I show up with a list like this against a mech gunline, I'm going to see that C-shape magically form up and just obliterate the infantry. If only a few models make it, they've got to be able to handle this.
You could talk about the PISs and PCS with lascannons, but what happens when they shoot at the lascannons? Yes, the conscripts make it further upfield unmolested, but so what? Now they're standing around not doing anything to those raiders/venoms/chimeras/razorbacks/wave serpents/etc.
It's the fact that the units in front aren't, themselves, a serious threat that's the problem in this circumstance. Taken two platoons as a whole, you're talking about paying over 700 points, and the only anti-tank is the lascannons sitting on fragile squads and in BS3 hands. That's a pretty big deficit to make up for.
Ailaros wrote: Okay, I'm starting to get the idea of "powerless blobs" congealing. Power blobs only worked because of hidden power weapons, but what if the burden of killing power were put on the regular, non-powered attacks.
The main problem I'm still seeing, though, is vehicles, especially mech gunlines. I know the moment I show up with a list like this against a mech gunline, I'm going to see that C-shape magically form up and just obliterate the infantry. If only a few models make it, they've got to be able to handle this.
You could talk about the PISs and PCS with lascannons, but what happens when they shoot at the lascannons? Yes, the conscripts make it further upfield unmolested, but so what? Now they're standing around not doing anything to those raiders/venoms/chimeras/razorbacks/wave serpents/etc.
It's the fact that the units in front aren't, themselves, a serious threat that's the problem in this circumstance. Taken two platoons as a whole, you're talking about paying over 700 points, and the only anti-tank is the lascannons sitting on fragile squads and in BS3 hands. That's a pretty big deficit to make up for.
In that case, the answer might be build some anti-tank with armor. The Tank Commander w/ vanquishers seems to be a popular option and stormtroopers can provide you with DS melta.
The way I am seeing IG now is you buy your HQ and Troops and then build the list around those choices.
Ailaros wrote: Okay, I'm starting to get the idea of "powerless blobs" congealing. Power blobs only worked because of hidden power weapons, but what if the burden of killing power were put on the regular, non-powered attacks.
The main problem I'm still seeing, though, is vehicles, especially mech gunlines. I know the moment I show up with a list like this against a mech gunline, I'm going to see that C-shape magically form up and just obliterate the infantry. If only a few models make it, they've got to be able to handle this.
You could talk about the PISs and PCS with lascannons, but what happens when they shoot at the lascannons? Yes, the conscripts make it further upfield unmolested, but so what? Now they're standing around not doing anything to those raiders/venoms/chimeras/razorbacks/wave serpents/etc.
It's the fact that the units in front aren't, themselves, a serious threat that's the problem in this circumstance. Taken two platoons as a whole, you're talking about paying over 700 points, and the only anti-tank is the lascannons sitting on fragile squads and in BS3 hands. That's a pretty big deficit to make up for.
True, thats why you back it up with a static combined platoon with a non upgraded commie or priest w/ lascannons, along with back field support from orders from CCS, PCS or a prescience psyker which we have easy access too.
Not to mention, ok.... he ignores your conscripts, you now hold an objective. you win. those exact vehicles you mentioned cant do much to a 50 man blob of fearlessness unless they specifically tailored a heavy flamer list against you. or he shoots your concripts, you shoot w/ lascannons, or LRMBTs
Conscripts aren't a serious threat.. (well actually to other light infantry they are a threat) in a damage sense, they still have be dealt with in the sense they cant be moved through, they take up allllooottt of space, and they are scoring troops.
Ailaros wrote: Okay, I'm starting to get the idea of "powerless blobs" congealing. Power blobs only worked because of hidden power weapons, but what if the burden of killing power were put on the regular, non-powered attacks.
The main problem I'm still seeing, though, is vehicles, especially mech gunlines. I know the moment I show up with a list like this against a mech gunline, I'm going to see that C-shape magically form up and just obliterate the infantry. If only a few models make it, they've got to be able to handle this.
You could talk about the PISs and PCS with lascannons, but what happens when they shoot at the lascannons? Yes, the conscripts make it further upfield unmolested, but so what? Now they're standing around not doing anything to those raiders/venoms/chimeras/razorbacks/wave serpents/etc.
It's the fact that the units in front aren't, themselves, a serious threat that's the problem in this circumstance. Taken two platoons as a whole, you're talking about paying over 700 points, and the only anti-tank is the lascannons sitting on fragile squads and in BS3 hands. That's a pretty big deficit to make up for.
not at all... why do you think the blobs are worthless against those targets? 700pts for 50 GI's, 50 conscripts, bare PCS, 2 priests, 3 psykers, caouple M bombs and two INQ with divination is pretty good.
they have, priests, pykers and / or INQ psykers in them if you do them right. Hammer hand gives you str 8 smash, psykers can have force staves +2 str +1 from HH, INQ's can take decent anti armour gear.
+ thats half the reason why I take a full 50 normal GI's as well as 50 conscripts, as the GI's get 5pt m bombs on the srgts too.
Leth wrote: I would never give a priest a plasmagun. Just too much of a risk to your support character. Also it almost doubles his points. Not worth it IMO. It is easy to get the fire power you need elsewhere.
Just so I can give folks some aid, Sisters allies might be worth it for more priests. The SoB priests are better and can carry the Litanies of Faith which allows priests in a unit to auto-pass war hymns tests. This means if you're building a wicked power blob with 50 IG + 8 Priests + 3 Psykers. Get Forewarning, Foreboding, Prescience and then reroll all saves and wounds in close combat.
Slice of fried gold. Put St. Celestine in there for Hit and Run, bring 5 cheap sisters in a rhino and go to town. Get an Exorcist if you love the model, good support tank.
If you really want to go all out for that blob, take a cannoness with a command squad with the banner. It gives +1 attack to all friendly units within 12" not just other SoB squad. Best part is, with a blob you can have a thin line of guys 2" apart connecting the bulk of the blob back to within 12" of the banner allowing it to be far apart.
But really... consider this:
50 conscripts
1+ priests (really just enough to pass one of the buffs)
1 inquisitor with hammerhand and rad grenades
On the charge you'd get 100 attacks at S4, vs. an enemy at -1 T.
So instant death vs. enemy T3.
Or vs. MEQ 75 hits, 66.66 wounds, 22.22 failed saves. (Granted they'd go first, so you can't wipe out a 20 marine blob with conscripts in a single phase, but... still. Although if you had re-rollable 4++ (second priest buff + psyker), 20 tactical marines would kill 2 of your guys in melee total.) I'm not sure how often this would come up (or if you can really get all the models in a 50 vs. 20 fight close enough to participate), but imagine how awesome it would be to trade 2 conscripts for 20 marines.
Actually, with primaris psykers making prescience easy to get, there's no reason not to be able to take an inquisitor with Hammerhand and Rad Grenades if you think that there's any chance you want to put some of your dudes in an assault +1 S -1 enemy T is just a massive force multiplier when you're relying on S3 attacks. Heck... with this guy, guardsmen can hurt up to T8 in melee and a blob bringing a ton of attacks and priest giving you a chance to reroll to hit and to wound even 2+ T6-8 models aren't so good at not being overwhelmed.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually, I just had a scarier thought. If you could find a scout IC to attach to the conscript blob to give it outflanking, you could fill up an entire board edge at a time.
Honestly the only reason I won't run a conscript blob is because painting 50 guys is a giant pain (also moving 50 of them during a game).
Rostere wrote:What about middle-sized infantry squad blobs? We have talked about the merits of MSU versus "true" blobs, but could there be a point to having 20 or 30 guardsmen in a unit, finding a "sweet spot" between unit cost, efficiency with orders and buffs, and frailty? Also, what about using mid-size blobs in lots of different platoons in order to maximize number of PCSs?
Personally, I'd never consider running 50 as one squad. Having tried it once or twice with the last codex, I found it just too unwieldy. 40 is the upper limit of what I'd use, 30 is what I generally run. 30 guys gives you a fair benefit from orders, 3 special/heavy weapons and tends to clock in under 250 points even with LC/melta.
Blacksails wrote:What are we all thinking about vets, particularly in chimeras?
Still planning on running 3x specials, or doing 2x special plus heavy flamer due to the chimeras two firepoints? Grenadiers a reasonable option, or the cheaper the vets, the better they are?
I think that running a drive-and-drop setup would be worth trying. 12"+Flat Out on T1, then move+disembark on T2, hopefully putting you in Rapid-fire range with several squads (2 Vets and 1 CCS gives you plenty of special weapons and orders). Give them carapace to have some chance of surviving, and next turn, get back on board with whatever was left, rinse and repeat.
This would work even better with a Scion platoon DSing around an Augur, essentially opening a second front on T2.
50 conscripts
1+ priests (really just enough to pass one of the buffs)
1 inquisitor with hammerhand and rad grenades
On the charge you'd get 100 attacks at S4, vs. an enemy at -1 T.
So instant death vs. enemy T3.
Or vs. MEQ 75 hits, 66.66 wounds, 22.22 failed saves. (Granted they'd go first, so you can't wipe out a 20 marine blob with conscripts in a single phase, but... still. Although if you had re-rollable 4++ (second priest buff + psyker), 20 tactical marines would kill 2 of your guys in melee total.) I'm not sure how often this would come up (or if you can really get all the models in a 50 vs. 20 fight close enough to participate), but imagine how awesome it would be to trade 2 conscripts for 20 marines.
Actually, with primaris psykers making prescience easy to get, there's no reason not to be able to take an inquisitor with Hammerhand and Rad Grenades if you think that there's any chance you want to put some of your dudes in an assault +1 S -1 enemy T is just a massive force multiplier when you're relying on S3 attacks. Heck... with this guy, guardsmen can hurt up to T8 in melee and a blob bringing a ton of attacks and priest giving you a chance to reroll to hit and to wound even 2+ T6-8 models aren't so good at not being overwhelmed.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually, I just had a scarier thought. If you could find a scout IC to attach to the conscript blob to give it outflanking, you could fill up an entire board edge at a time.
Honestly the only reason I won't run a conscript blob is because painting 50 guys is a giant pain (also moving 50 of them during a game).
+1
Except instead of outflanking, why not scout your conscript blob? I love my Inq with the Liber Heresius . They'll be in the center of the board after T1, possibly even shooting with that shoot&run order.
The Inq is really taking the blob over the top, conscripts or guardsmen. MW10 for orders, 'nades, Hammerhand or Divination are all supergood.
Leth wrote: I would never give a priest a plasmagun. Just too much of a risk to your support character. Also it almost doubles his points. Not worth it IMO. It is easy to get the fire power you need elsewhere.
Just so I can give folks some aid, Sisters allies might be worth it for more priests. The SoB priests are better and can carry the Litanies of Faith which allows priests in a unit to auto-pass war hymns tests. This means if you're building a wicked power blob with 50 IG + 8 Priests + 3 Psykers. Get Forewarning, Foreboding, Prescience and then reroll all saves and wounds in close combat.
Slice of fried gold. Put St. Celestine in there for Hit and Run, bring 5 cheap sisters in a rhino and go to town. Get an Exorcist if you love the model, good support tank.
If you really want to go all out for that blob, take a cannoness with a command squad with the banner. It gives +1 attack to all friendly units within 12" not just other SoB squad. Best part is, with a blob you can have a thin line of guys 2" apart connecting the bulk of the blob back to within 12" of the banner allowing it to be far apart.
But really... consider this:
50 conscripts
1+ priests (really just enough to pass one of the buffs)
1 inquisitor with hammerhand and rad grenades
On the charge you'd get 100 attacks at S4, vs. an enemy at -1 T.
So instant death vs. enemy T3.
Or vs. MEQ 75 hits, 66.66 wounds, 22.22 failed saves. (Granted they'd go first, so you can't wipe out a 20 marine blob with conscripts in a single phase, but... still. Although if you had re-rollable 4++ (second priest buff + psyker), 20 tactical marines would kill 2 of your guys in melee total.) I'm not sure how often this would come up (or if you can really get all the models in a 50 vs. 20 fight close enough to participate), but imagine how awesome it would be to trade 2 conscripts for 20 marines.
Actually, with primaris psykers making prescience easy to get, there's no reason not to be able to take an inquisitor with Hammerhand and Rad Grenades if you think that there's any chance you want to put some of your dudes in an assault +1 S -1 enemy T is just a massive force multiplier when you're relying on S3 attacks. Heck... with this guy, guardsmen can hurt up to T8 in melee and a blob bringing a ton of attacks and priest giving you a chance to reroll to hit and to wound even 2+ T6-8 models aren't so good at not being overwhelmed.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually, I just had a scarier thought. If you could find a scout IC to attach to the conscript blob to give it outflanking, you could fill up an entire board edge at a time.
Honestly the only reason I won't run a conscript blob is because painting 50 guys is a giant pain (also moving 50 of them during a game).
The priest's zealot rule confers rage as well right? Wouldn't that mean you're theoretically getting 150 attacks on the charge, if you somehow magically got ALL of them into assault range?
Mavnas wrote: On the charge you'd get 100 attacks...
Except it is pretty much impossible to get this, the same way it it impossible to get the "150 rapid fire shots with FrF". People cite these best case scenarios that are stupidly hard to do. Try moving 50 conscripts in to 12" range of a unit, or within 2" of an engaged close combat model. When using calculating these situations you need to take into account how many models are likely go get in combat or rapid fire range. Not to mention the expectation of casualties.
other than that I haven't given it too much thought.
And BS4 isnt half bad...well, depends on the unit, I guess...and my obsession with commisars...
