Imperial Guard is an army that I have only played against once and never in a competitive setting. With this new codex, what are their strengths/weakness vs Tyranids, particularly FMC's and MC's.

I'm leaving this here for fun, not serious tactical consideration.

Because you sometimes have to follow the rabbit down the silliest holes:

CCS (60), Straken (135), MoO (20), Astropath (25), 3 Plasma Gun (45), Medic (15), Carapace (8), Primaris Psyker (50), Primaris Psyker (50), Plasma Priest (40), Plasma Priest (40), Plasma Priest (40) = 528 (12 dudes)

Chimera (65), Camo Netting (15), Relic Plating (3) = 83

1 plasma pistol
6 plasma guns
1 walking ordnance blast
Built-in divination (Primaris Psykers)
FNP
Lots of invulnerable saves
Fearless
Furious Charge
Counter Attack
Priest stuff

So you start in your chimera, headed straight for the enemy, tossing a pie plate out your top hatch. Turn 2 you pile out and Prescience up, unloading at something with 13 re-rolled plasma guns, a pie plate, and whatever the psykers have. In combat you’ve got re-rolling Straken, a couple of re-rolling force axes, a few regular dudes, and whatever the priests bring to the party. Your chant priority against most targets is probably re-roll saves > re-roll wounds > smash. It’s only ~30% of an 1850 list.

 Iechine wrote:
Imperial Guard is an army that I have only played against once and never in a competitive setting. With this new codex, what are their strengths/weakness vs Tyranids, particularly FMC's and MC's.

Against FMCs, IG can force grounding tests left, right and centre, with Chimeras able to potentially hit 4 different targets (Chimera, crew and 2 Lasgun arrays) and any unit potentially having Split Fire with orders. They can bring a lot of plasma for the points, and the same with melta. Hige fearless squads can Tarpit MCs, and meltabombs everywhere can threaten your MCs as well. Wyverns will shred gaunts or gants you have.

That said, without Fearless IG infantry will crumble in assault, and the same with Tanks vs MCs.

 Miguelsan wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

Zengu wrote:
Has anyone tried the improved death strike missile yet?

Take one of your Leman Russ Squadrons and give them long ranged weaponry and camp them around the Deathstrike. Sit back and bombard until its able to fire, watched this happen last night and it literally wiped out 3 quarters of a Tau Gunline army!

Unfortunately the Death Strike is still worthless (but fun specially if you put up a great show when rolling to fire ) A player that keeps castled up when a Death Strike is on the table is a player that can't grasp basic concepts like 1+1=2. The Death Strike is a really fun thing to bring to a casual game but the average player that sees an IG list with it will spread around and rush the IG lines ASAP, it's not like the IG is the ultimate CC army after all and even Tau have better chances at assaulting the damn thing than waiting for the pie plate to wipe them out in one go.

M.

You talk about your opponent rushing your lines like that's an immediate defeat for yourself and the Deathstrike has no use in such a scenario.

Well, it has. You've forced the enemy to go on the offensive. All those slow, cumbersome Tau gunlines? You can force them to spread out thin, meaning you can isolate and destroy them better as their lanes of fire are disrupted, or you can massacre them as they attempt to charge your lines. It doesn't matter what they do, its a win-win-win.

And while defensive orientated armies try to stumble towards your hidden launchers clumsily, they're still going to be relatively close together, especially if you manipulate your own deployment to force their units closer together- for instance, by shoving the launcher, or launchers in a heavily defended corner. Then you nuke them.

 Paradigm wrote:

 Iechine wrote:
Imperial Guard is an army that I have only played against once and never in a competitive setting. With this new codex, what are their strengths/weakness vs Tyranids, particularly FMC's and MC's.

Against FMCs, IG can force grounding tests left, right and centre, with Chimeras able to potentially hit 4 different targets (Chimera, crew and 2 Lasgun arrays) and any unit potentially having Split Fire with orders. They can bring a lot of plasma for the points, and the same with melta. Hige fearless squads can Tarpit MCs, and meltabombs everywhere can threaten your MCs as well. Wyverns will shred gaunts or gants you have.

That said, without Fearless IG infantry will crumble in assault, and the same with Tanks vs MCs.

Stick a 40pt enginseer in the chimera with whatever squad, and then shoot 5 targets. And repair the chimera.

Biophysical wrote:
I'm leaving this here for fun, not serious tactical consideration.

Because you sometimes have to follow the rabbit down the silliest holes:

CCS (60), Straken (135), MoO (20), Astropath (25), 3 Plasma Gun (45), Medic (15), Carapace (8), Primaris Psyker (50), Primaris Psyker (50), Plasma Priest (40), Plasma Priest (40), Plasma Priest (40) = 528 (12 dudes)

Chimera (65), Camo Netting (15), Relic Plating (3) = 83

1 plasma pistol
6 plasma guns
1 walking ordnance blast
Built-in divination (Primaris Psykers)
FNP
Lots of invulnerable saves
Fearless
Furious Charge
Counter Attack
Priest stuff

So you start in your chimera, headed straight for the enemy, tossing a pie plate out your top hatch. Turn 2 you pile out and Prescience up, unloading at something with 13 re-rolled plasma guns, a pie plate, and whatever the psykers have. In combat you’ve got re-rolling Straken, a couple of re-rolling force axes, a few regular dudes, and whatever the priests bring to the party. Your chant priority against most targets is probably re-roll saves > re-roll wounds > smash. It’s only ~30% of an 1850 list.

You forgot the part where they can kill your Chimera laughably easily. Chimerae are kind of durable, in large numbers at range, where they can protect each others' weak flanks Playing them aggressively takes a lot of work and fairly dense terrain.

I was just reading an AM codex review and found this point quite amusing:

"Also, am I missing something or is the allies chart/para missing from the book? I've checked both the BL digital and print copies and don't see it anywhere. When we couldn't find it we pre-emptively house ruled at the shop I go to that they are just IG from the BRB. This could be a tournament nightmare if it is truly missing as with the name change they RAW have NO ALLIES".

LOL

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:

You forgot the part where they can kill your Chimera laughably easily. Chimerae are kind of durable, in large numbers at range, where they can protect each others' weak flanks Playing them aggressively takes a lot of work and fairly dense terrain.

That's why it's for fun, and not serious. You could run screens with hellhounds, but that just keeps piling silliness on top of silliness.

So going back to the conscript blob. With 40 of them at max spacing you could make two 50' long lines. You know instead of marking your deployment area off with dice or whatever, just use 120pts worth of dudes.

I think those long wall of martyrs sections just got more useful.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 Miguelsan wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

Zengu wrote:
Has anyone tried the improved death strike missile yet?

Take one of your Leman Russ Squadrons and give them long ranged weaponry and camp them around the Deathstrike. Sit back and bombard until its able to fire, watched this happen last night and it literally wiped out 3 quarters of a Tau Gunline army!

Unfortunately the Death Strike is still worthless (but fun specially if you put up a great show when rolling to fire ) A player that keeps castled up when a Death Strike is on the table is a player that can't grasp basic concepts like 1+1=2. The Death Strike is a really fun thing to bring to a casual game but the average player that sees an IG list with it will spread around and rush the IG lines ASAP, it's not like the IG is the ultimate CC army after all and even Tau have better chances at assaulting the damn thing than waiting for the pie plate to wipe them out in one go.

M.

You talk about your opponent rushing your lines like that's an immediate defeat for yourself and the Deathstrike has no use in such a scenario.



Well, it has. You've forced the enemy to go on the offensive. All those slow, cumbersome Tau gunlines? You can force them to spread out thin, meaning you can isolate and destroy them better as their lanes of fire are disrupted, or you can massacre them as they attempt to charge your lines. It doesn't matter what they do, its a win-win-win.

And while defensive orientated armies try to stumble towards your hidden launchers clumsily, they're still going to be relatively close together, especially if you manipulate your own deployment to force their units closer together- for instance, by shoving the launcher, or launchers in a heavily defended corner. Then you nuke them.

I think alot of people are underestimating what the deathstrike does. The Deathstirke changes how your opponent might have chosen to deploy (you always gain something forcing the enemy to change according to what you do). In addition, alot of armies like to cluster units up in order to maximize cover saves/block LOS for other units. Deathstrikes discourage this. So what if your enemy is now stringing out his units to prevent the deathstrike from vaporizing half his army, if half of his army is now exposed to your Leman Russes and other long ranged firepower that doesn't ignore cover?

In my opinion the Deathstrike is primarily a psychological weapon used to force your opponent to make strategic mistakes in deployment and movement, and any actual killing it does is just gravy. If you really want it to go off and not get hurt, stick it out of LoS behind a bastion, or put it behind an Aegis (4+), with bulllgryn (3+) and camo-netting(2+). And the rules don't say the bullgryn have to stay upright to confer their save, so you can have them go to ground for their own 2+ cover save as well.

On the Wyvern, I'm not seeing the power here.

I've seen some people quote some obscene numbers of wounds; in an army list post someone worked the math out for an average of 3 wounds per blast. Maybe I'm conscious of blast markers, but I can't understand how anyone could possibly assume 3 wounds average for a single small blast marker when your opponent has 2" of coherency to play with.

Working under the assumption that most opponents would space out properly when facing off against multiple Wyverns, I can't help but think the raw firepower drops off considerably. If someone can consistently show me that in higher end play there's a constant supply of bunched up models waiting to eat a series of small blasts, I'll take it all back. The only scenarios I can think of are deep striking units, and ones either disembarking or had their transport blown up. Tank shocking helps, but that requires a tank to be in close promixity, and I can think of several units that would deal out more hurt than a few S4 small blasts.

At least the Thunderfire cannon brings with it numerous abilities, with different ammo, a techpriest, being artillery, and filling a role the book actually needs help with. The Wyvern is in the same slot as all the AV14 tanks (one of which also conveniently ignores cover with higher S and better AP) and the S9/10 barrage templates useful for hurting nearly everything reliably.

I'm just not buying the hype about the Wyvern. If it was Elite, I could the usefulness, but in the heavy slot? Personally, I have more important things to go there than extra GEQ killing power.

So, am I completely out to lunch?

 Blacksails wrote:
On the Wyvern, I'm not seeing the power here.

I've seen some people quote some obscene numbers of wounds; in an army list post someone worked the math out for an average of 3 wounds per blast. Maybe I'm conscious of blast markers, but I can't understand how anyone could possibly assume 3 wounds average for a single small blast marker when your opponent has 2" of coherency to play with.

Working under the assumption that most opponents would space out properly when facing off against multiple Wyverns, I can't help but think the raw firepower drops off considerably. If someone can consistently show me that in higher end play there's a constant supply of bunched up models waiting to eat a series of small blasts, I'll take it all back. The only scenarios I can think of are deep striking units, and ones either disembarking or had their transport blown up. Tank shocking helps, but that requires a tank to be in close promixity, and I can think of several units that would deal out more hurt than a few S4 small blasts.

At least the Thunderfire cannon brings with it numerous abilities, with different ammo, a techpriest, being artillery, and filling a role the book actually needs help with. The Wyvern is in the same slot as all the AV14 tanks (one of which also conveniently ignores cover with higher S and better AP) and the S9/10 barrage templates useful for hurting nearly everything reliably.

I'm just not buying the hype about the Wyvern. If it was Elite, I could the usefulness, but in the heavy slot? Personally, I have more important things to go there than extra GEQ killing power.

So, am I completely out to lunch?

I don't think the Wyvern will have a place in my army either, it might only be 65 points but I can't see it reliably killing anything but bunched up squads of Ork Boyz in my own meta. If anything, it will only make my idiots friends deploy their guys in L shaped formations because for some reason they find that hilarious because it apparently renders my IG shooting useless.

I'm thinking Imperial Guardstar is going to be pretty freaking brutal...


Coteaz: 100

Ordo Xenos Inquisitor in Power Armor w/ Force Sword, Rad Grenades, Liber Heresius and 2 Servo Skulls: 99

Azrael: 215

Priest:25
Priest:25


Infantry Platoon: 30
Infantry Squad, Sergeant w/ Melta Bombs & Power Axe: 70
Infantry Squad, Sergeant w/ Melta Bombs & Power Axe: 70
Infantry Squad, Sergeant w/ Melta Bombs & Power Axe: 70
Infantry Squad, Sergeant w/ Melta Bombs & Power Axe: 70
Infantry Squad, Sergeant w/ Melta Bombs & Power Axe: 70




It's ~850 points, BUT has 55 scoring bodies, and combines some of the nastiest synergy imaginable, getting rerolls on invuln saves, to-hit, and to-wound in H2H, precision shots at range with the PCS close behind issuing the order, strength boosts from 2x Hammerhand, and target T reductions from Rad Grenades. The weakest sucker has a 4+ invuln save which will be rerollable in H2H.

What about the primaris psykers??

I think even if you look at the Wyvern as averaging 1 model hit per blast, against a spread out foe it still ends up being pretty useful. Take a squadron of 3, which is sub 200 points. Against GEQs, that's 7 kills, anywhere on the board. Against MEQs, it's 3 kills. Those are only okay numbers, but the real utility is that you can reach out and do it to whatever objective campers you can't get to with other stuff, and you can do it while hiding.

On top of that, add in the ability to focus your wounds on important support characters

I also think severely punishing deepstrikers and taking advantage of bailed out squads is a real benefit. All those blasts are twin-linked, so you really increase your odds of hammering those small, bunched up targets.

Just for fun, look at 5 terminators that dropped in. If the first one hits, you'll probably get 6 more hits on the scatter die. That's 35 hits (not including the odd hit from linked-off scatters), for ~26 wounds, for ~ 4 kills. And that's against Terminators. For MEQs and lighter that are bailed out you're removing whole squads with a full salvo. And the Wyverns can always get to the bailed out squad, because they can hit anything on the board. Now, if you don't get that first hit in a good place, you're not going to do nearly as much, but at least it's twin-linked, so your odds are good.

So what do you all think is the best setup for the PowerPask?

I was thinking either:

1. Pask in Punisher, 2 LR vanquishers with Lascannons- 500pts
2. Pask in Punisher, 2 Punishers- 490pts
3. Pask in Punisher, 2 Exterminators with Lascannons- 520pts

For that much you get your HQ as well as 2 great Russes and 1 Amazing Russ. Obviously Pask's Punisher can be used against everything, the vanquishers would be hunting heavy armor, the punisher spam would be mowing down infantry, and the exterminators are for light armor/ heavy infantry.

Those are just some ideas, what do you think the best use for pask is?

edit: vanquisher= 72" armorbane str8 ap2, Punisher=24" str5 20 shots, Exterminator= 2 TL autocannons

 Ryan_A wrote:
So what do you all think is the best setup for the PowerPask?

I was thinking either:

1. Pask in Punisher, 2 LR vanquishers with Lascannons- 500pts
2. Pask in Punisher, 2 Punishers- 490pts
3. Pask in Punisher, 2 Exterminators with Lascannons- 520pts

For that much you get your HQ as well as 2 great Russes and 1 Amazing Russ. Obviously Pask's Punisher can be used against everything, the vanquishers would be hunting heavy armor, the punisher spam would be mowing down infantry, and the exterminators are for light armor/ heavy infantry.

Those are just some ideas, what do you think the best use for pask is?

edit: vanquisher= 72" armorbane str8 ap2, Punisher=24" str5 20 shots, Exterminator= 2 TL autocannons

I just strongly feel that Pask in a tank with a range of 24" will be killed more often before he gets to be amazing.
Exterminator/Vanquisher would probably be my first choice.

 alarmingrick wrote:

 Ryan_A wrote:
So what do you all think is the best setup for the PowerPask?

I was thinking either:

1. Pask in Punisher, 2 LR vanquishers with Lascannons- 500pts
2. Pask in Punisher, 2 Punishers- 490pts
3. Pask in Punisher, 2 Exterminators with Lascannons- 520pts

For that much you get your HQ as well as 2 great Russes and 1 Amazing Russ. Obviously Pask's Punisher can be used against everything, the vanquishers would be hunting heavy armor, the punisher spam would be mowing down infantry, and the exterminators are for light armor/ heavy infantry.

Those are just some ideas, what do you think the best use for pask is?

edit: vanquisher= 72" armorbane str8 ap2, Punisher=24" str5 20 shots, Exterminator= 2 TL autocannons

I just strongly feel that Pask in a tank with a range of 24" will be killed more often before he gets to be amazing.
Exterminator/Vanquisher would probably be my first choice.

What's going to kill him though if he's all bubblewrapped up?

Because the Russes are heavy, they're only moving 6" per turn anyway so you can have their bubblewrap advance without worrying about it impeding their movement. This is why I think IG-star is going to be brutal - it's basically an infantry + AV14 deathstar that all rolls around together, either assaulting things with 50 4++ reroll to hit and to wound bros with +1 str against -1 target toughness, or shooting the crap out of them with Russes and Precision Shots.

Blacksails wrote:On the Wyvern, I'm not seeing the power here.

So, am I completely out to lunch?

Nope, I completely agree

Biophysical wrote: I think even if you look at the Wyvern as averaging 1 model hit per blast, against a spread out foe it still ends up being pretty useful. Take a squadron of 3, which is sub 200 points. Against GEQs, that's 7 kills, anywhere on the board. Against MEQs, it's 3 kills. Those are only okay numbers, but the real utility is that you can reach out and do it to whatever objective campers you can't get to with other stuff, and you can do it while hiding.

On top of that, add in the ability to focus your wounds on important support characters

I also think severely punishing deepstrikers and taking advantage of bailed out squads is a real benefit. All those blasts are twin-linked, so you really increase your odds of hammering those small, bunched up targets.

Just for fun, look at 5 terminators that dropped in. If the first one hits, you'll probably get 6 more hits on the scatter die. That's 35 hits (not including the odd hit from linked-off scatters), for ~26 wounds, for ~ 4 kills. And that's against Terminators. For MEQs and lighter that are bailed out you're removing whole squads with a full salvo. And the Wyverns can always get to the bailed out squad, because they can hit anything on the board. Now, if you don't get that first hit in a good place, you're not going to do nearly as much, but at least it's twin-linked, so your odds are good.

St 4/ AP 6 is the only thing I see when I look at the WhyVern.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 alarmingrick wrote:

 Ryan_A wrote:
So what do you all think is the best setup for the PowerPask?

I was thinking either:

1. Pask in Punisher, 2 LR vanquishers with Lascannons- 500pts
2. Pask in Punisher, 2 Punishers- 490pts
3. Pask in Punisher, 2 Exterminators with Lascannons- 520pts

For that much you get your HQ as well as 2 great Russes and 1 Amazing Russ. Obviously Pask's Punisher can be used against everything, the vanquishers would be hunting heavy armor, the punisher spam would be mowing down infantry, and the exterminators are for light armor/ heavy infantry.

Those are just some ideas, what do you think the best use for pask is?

edit: vanquisher= 72" armorbane str8 ap2, Punisher=24" str5 20 shots, Exterminator= 2 TL autocannons

I just strongly feel that Pask in a tank with a range of 24" will be killed more often before he gets to be amazing.
Exterminator/Vanquisher would probably be my first choice.

What's going to kill him though if he's all bubblewrapped up?

Because the Russes are heavy, they're only moving 6" per turn anyway so you can have their bubblewrap advance without worrying about it impeding their movement. This is why I think IG-star is going to be brutal - it's basically an infantry + AV14 deathstar that all rolls around together, either assaulting things with 50 4++ reroll to hit and to wound bros with +1 str against -1 target toughness, or shooting the crap out of them with Russes and Precision Shots.

So you give a Punisher Pask bubble wrap it and leave it in your deployment zone? Or move it 6" a turn wrapped in bodies?
He's going to have to get within 30" to do his magic. I'd prefer him have more range. I hope I'm wrong about him. I just don't feel comfortable with him having a 24" - 30" threat range.

Considering that you have to take another tank with Pask, don't squadrons require that the closest vehicle to the shooter is the one that gets hit?

I don't have a rulebook handy to double check that but the odds of Pask + 1-2 AV14 shields behind a blob for a 5+ along with Camo netting for a 4+ even when moving AND smoke on turn 1 the odds of him making it to within 24" is pretty good IMO. Put a Lascannon on him and boohoo you lose maybe 1-2 turns of the punisher cannon shooting while getting him into position with an extra deadly lascannon to hit a vehicle at range while he advances. This, and he gives preferred enemy to his squadron of tanks and can order them to split fire... He is a boss.

 alarmingrick wrote:


So you give a Punisher Pask bubble wrap it and leave it in your deployment zone? Or move it 6" a turn wrapped in bodies?
He's going to have to get within 30" to do his magic. I'd prefer him have more range. I hope I'm wrong about him. I just don't feel comfortable with him having a 24" - 30" threat range.

If he's in a squadron I'm pretty sure so long as you have his squadron buddies ahead of him hits are resolved against him last from your opponent's deployment based AT.

I see, very, very few people capable of killing multiple AV14 vehicles in a turn from the front, or even two turns, even Dark Eldar lances in Venom Spam builds will probably only kill at best 1 or 2 a turn before being blown to smithereens.

And then, if AV14 isn't enough, you have a massive defence in the offensive potential of issuing Full Throttle for 12+D6 movement on the first turn, should range even be an issue to begin with, and if you are in range but are still concerned with losing the tank Strike and Shroud, combined with perhaps camo-netting gives you a 5+/4+ cover after firing.

You make that even better, and consistent, by putting some Bullgryns in front with plate shields.

Considering the absurd brute strength of 29 S5 and 3 S4 shots with rending, P.E and BS4, its silly to not at least consider the PaskPunisher.

Weapon profile doesn't take into account volume of fire, accuracy, or opportunity, which the Wyvern has in spades. Math reveals things that initial impression does not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As far as Pask is concerned, I'm not too comfortable having my Warlord that close. I like him sitting in the back raining he'll with long range tanks, where your Prescience support is well protected.

Does, PotMS give you the ability to shoot at what pops out of a transport you shot with your other guns? If yes, I can see giving Pask a couple melta sponsons and a las cannon with a tech priest in tow.

Mavnas wrote: I can see giving Pask a couple melta sponsons and a las cannon with a tech priest in tow.

I'm seeing two problems with this new techpriest. The first is keeping the priest alive and in range (you can keep him in a chimera, but still...), and the second is the fact that his special ability only works like half the time.

easysauce wrote:not at all... why do you think the blobs are worthless against those targets? 700pts for 50 GI's, 50 conscripts, bare PCS, 2 priests, 3 psykers, caouple M bombs and two INQ with divination is pretty good.

they have, priests, pykers and / or INQ psykers in them if you do them right. Hammer hand gives you str 8 smash, psykers can have force staves +2 str +1 from HH, INQ's can take decent anti armour gear.

Firstly, there really isn't much that threatens tanks here. None of those 100 infantry models will, and the rest is just a couple of fragile models.

And that's the bad part. The priest, in your example, needs to be towards the front of the squad. Otherwise, when the squad charges, he just won't get close enough to use his ability. But if he's that close to the front of the squad, say hello to 6th ed's wound allocation. It's just going to get the priest killed, and now suddenly all of those conscripts lose fearless. No, in order for this to work, the characters need to be in the back of the squad, hiding, and passing out buffs, but then the squad has no anti-tank.

Also, I'd note that it's unreliable. The priest or inquisitor could still be sniped out, and for the S8 smash to work, you need to pass two leadership tests, one of them only on a 7.

Happygrunt wrote:In that case, the answer might be build some anti-tank with armor. The Tank Commander w/ vanquishers seems to be a popular option and stormtroopers can provide you with DS melta.

Forgive me for being semantic, here, but it seems like the former option would be playing russ guard with some conscripts, not foot guard.

The stormies could work, but I'd be a little concerned as they don't show up right away, and now will scatter further away from their targets, and will mishap more. I played plenty of stormies when they had pinpoint deepstrike, and they already had a nasty tendency to wander off-target. I suppose at least you can take a lot more of them now... but still...

Comrade wrote:True, thats why you back it up with a static combined platoon with a non upgraded commie or priest w/ lascannons, along with back field support from orders from CCS, PCS or a prescience psyker which we have easy access too.

An expensive way just to get a couple more lascannons. Inefficiency of killing power is already hurting this list.

Comrade wrote:Not to mention, ok.... he ignores your conscripts, you now hold an objective. you win. those exact vehicles you mentioned cant do much to a 50 man blob of fearlessness unless they specifically tailored a heavy flamer list against you. or he shoots your concripts, you shoot w/ lascannons, or LRMBTs

Conscripts aren't a serious threat.. (well actually to other light infantry they are a threat) in a damage sense, they still have be dealt with in the sense they cant be moved through, they take up allllooottt of space, and they are scoring troops.

I like it in principle, but will it work in practice?

The biggest problem I see is time. Yes, your conscripts are unmolested until turn 3, wherein they start clogging up stuff... but then once your bigger threats are handled, now it's the conscript's turn. I've seen 40 guardsmen blown off the board in a single turn before - there's still time to handle the conscripts. Plus, once those mech lists start tank shocking them off of objectives and bringing template weapons to bear, I don't know if they'd be reliably able to keep those objectives choked.

MrMoustaffa wrote:The priest's zealot rule confers rage as well right?

It doesn't.

Anyways, I'm reasonably convinced about the anti-infantry killing power here. Prescienced FRF lasguns, even if you only assume 30 of the tightly-clustered buggers are in double-tap range, still puts down 72 lasgun hits, and if they're fearless in close combat should be able to grind stuff down.

Biophysical wrote:So you start in your chimera, headed straight for the enemy, tossing a pie plate out your top hatch.

That won't work. Infantry models with ordnance weapons can't move and fire at the same time.

In any case, this is just like the old way of doing guard deathstars. Lots and lots of stuff... all on T3 models that can get wiped out in a single round of shooting. The joke I used to tell in 4th edition was...

Blacksails wrote:I've seen some people quote some obscene numbers of wounds; in an army list post someone worked the math out for an average of 3 wounds per blast. Maybe I'm conscious of blast markers, but I can't understand how anyone could possibly assume 3 wounds average for a single small blast marker when your opponent has 2" of coherency to play with.

So, am I completely out to lunch?

No, as expected, there's a group of people who are going crazy bonkers well, WELL beyond the scope of the weapon itself.

Small blasts mean one hit per hit, just like it's always been. In the case of multiple barrage, you might be able to swing a couple over to get an extra hit or two, but that's at most 7 hits against even reasonable displacement (and it doesn't work correctly against opponents in ruins, and doesn't work at all against infantry in transports). 7 S4 shred hits that they get to make armor saves against. Yawn. That's good for a couple of marines or a half a squad of guardsmen. Yay.

And it competes for slots against proper HS choices, and it only does what your infantry or chimera weapons are already doing.

It seems like there are only two real advantages to the wyvern, the first is that it's stupidly cheap, and the second is that it's a souvenir launcher. Otherwise, it's just an up-powered mortar HWS.

Yeah, at 3 marines per turn, it only takes 6 turns for them to make their points back. Yay?

Only real use I see is to kill an MSU deep in the enemy backfield over the course of several turns.

 Ailaros wrote:

Biophysical wrote:So you start in your chimera, headed straight for the enemy, tossing a pie plate out your top hatch.

That won't work. Infantry models with ordnance weapons can't move and fire at the same time.

In any case, this is just like the old way of doing guard deathstars. Lots and lots of stuff... all on T3 models that can get wiped out in a single round of shooting. The joke I used to tell in 4th edition was...

Straken makes his squad Relentless!


Yeah, it's still a terrible unit, I was just seeing what the command squad deathstar would look like if you went crazy-nuts.

Aeileros,
I would hardly brush off str 8 attacks, and melta bomb atttacks at being worthless against vehicles... especially when you are getting re rolls to hit, and can chain back to your CCS for monster/tank hunter, im pretty sure preists just make a LD check for the hymn, i dont recall the codex saying it has to be the preists Ld as it is with psyker powers, so Im pretty sure you get to use the best ld in the unit (so 10) add to this the fact that you have acces to force staves/axes to one shot MC's, and its a very effective unit against all targets.

also considering that 50-100 of the guard will be str 4, thats more then enough to glance to death anything with av 10 on the back, as for "sniping the characters... thats 7 characters to snipe in two turns... not going to happen. And no, they wont die to wound allocation, its simple enough to place them in the unit behind 50 ablative wounds and still get them into combat engagement range.

Also, people see to overlook LOS! An IC hiding in a blob has only a 1 in 6 chance of being sniped. (This is a big advantage for Guard and SoB priests over inquisition ones who are only characters.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Biophysical wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

Biophysical wrote:So you start in your chimera, headed straight for the enemy, tossing a pie plate out your top hatch.

That won't work. Infantry models with ordnance weapons can't move and fire at the same time.

In any case, this is just like the old way of doing guard deathstars. Lots and lots of stuff... all on T3 models that can get wiped out in a single round of shooting. The joke I used to tell in 4th edition was...

Straken makes his squad Relentless!


Yeah, it's still a terrible unit, I was just seeing what the command squad deathstar would look like if you went crazy-nuts.

He's relentless, does he have some special rule to spread that to his squad?

 easysauce wrote:
Aeileros,
I would hardly brush off str 8 attacks, and melta bomb atttacks at being worthless against vehicles... especially when you are getting re rolls to hit, and can chain back to your CCS for monster/tank hunter, im pretty sure preists just make a LD check for the hymn, i dont recall the codex saying it has to be the preists Ld as it is with psyker powers, so Im pretty sure you get to use the best ld in the unit (so 10) add to this the fact that you have acces to force staves/axes to one shot MC's, and its a very effective unit against all targets.

also considering that 50-100 of the guard will be str 4, thats more then enough to glance to death anything with av 10 on the back, as for "sniping the characters... thats 7 characters to snipe in two turns... not going to happen. And no, they wont die to wound allocation, its simple enough to place them in the unit behind 50 ablative wounds and still get them into combat engagement range.

The book just says "Leadership Test."

In addition, Ailaros might be reading the War Hymn rule wrong. The actual text says, "A Ministorum Priest can take a Leadership Test at the beginning of each Fight sub-phase in which he is locked in combat."

It doesn't say he has to be an engaged model, just that he has to be "locked in combat." He could be all the way at the back singing the Emperor's praises just the same.

It's the Relentless warlord trait, which spreads it to the squad.

I'm still planning on running 2 platoons, but I'm rethinking PCS.

115 for a LC or quad flames in a chimera is just too much.

50 for quad flamers is still priced well, but with all the ignore cover IG can pull off now I don't think it's needed.

38 for 4 sniper rifles and maybe 1 more for a bolt gun sounds better.

I was confusing him with the named Sergeant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
All the squads in a platoon are individual scoring units, right?

Has anyone figured out if some of these HQs are getting 2 warlord traits? I see Pask as automatically having the Old Grudges... does he also get to roll on the table?

 schadenfreude wrote:


50 for quad flamers is still priced well, but with all the ignore cover IG can pull off now I don't think it's needed.

38 for 4 sniper rifles and maybe 1 more for a bolt gun sounds better.

I think flamers still have it, to be honest. In general, they aren't taken for ignoring cover, they're used to burn to a crisp whatever breaks your line by killing the infantry, which they still do just as well as ever.

Snipers is now a reasonably costed option, but I'd still pick flamers, for the above reason.

So I haven't really wanted to think about it, because the model is just so damn ugly and I love my Chimeras, but I think there might be something to the base Taurox. It's durability is definitely lower, but it's at least cheaper. At the same time its on-the-go firepower is substantially better than the Chimera's. It even has usable 12" movement firepower thanks to the twin-linked nature of it's guns. It's also cheap, even cheaper than the old Chimera. It's an interesting option as a transport that gets your guys somewhere, then fights on its own, and I could actually see Taurox spam being a decent part of a list.

Looking at it as a Chimera alternative in a mech-vet list with 6 squads, it saves you 90 points and gets you 9 autocannon hits a turn vs. 9 multilaser hits + whatever hull weapon the chimera brings. The side ports also let you deploy your melta/plasma vets further forward without exposing rear armor. I'd actually sort of like it if it weren't for the 10-man transport limit. Any vets that are going to be put near the enemy could really use a support character. Oh well.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm definitely going to start trying the sniper PCS. Unless you have a ton of LOS blocking cover, the flamers just get hit when it's convenient for your opponent. The snipers let the squad start doing something early, and are really cheap. If the enemy wants to go after them early, they're going after a 39 point squad. It's also a cheap way to get not-terrible sniper rifles, so if you have cool sniper models you want to use, that's where they go.

 schadenfreude wrote:
I'm still planning on running 2 platoons, but I'm rethinking PCS.

115 for a LC or quad flames in a chimera is just too much.

50 for quad flamers is still priced well, but with all the ignore cover IG can pull off now I don't think it's needed.

38 for 4 sniper rifles and maybe 1 more for a bolt gun sounds better.

I have always used my pcs with 4 flamers, as a sort of deterrent or fAilsafe if the blob gets overrun. But now I am considering running the pcs attached to static blobs (ie those with heavy weapons) with lascannons instead. Same cost, maybe more useful for more of the game.

Biophysical wrote:
So I haven't really wanted to think about it, because the model is just so damn ugly and I love my Chimeras, but I think there might be something to the base Taurox. It's durability is definitely lower, but it's at least cheaper. At the same time its on-the-go firepower is substantially better than the Chimera's. It even has usable 12" movement firepower thanks to the twin-linked nature of it's guns. It's also cheap, even cheaper than the old Chimera. It's an interesting option as a transport that gets your guys somewhere, then fights on its own, and I could actually see Taurox spam being a decent part of a list.

Looking at it as a Chimera alternative in a mech-vet list with 6 squads, it saves you 90 points and gets you 9 autocannon hits a turn vs. 9 multilaser hits + whatever hull weapon the chimera brings. The side ports also let you deploy your melta/plasma vets further forward without exposing rear armor. I'd actually sort of like it if it weren't for the 10-man transport limit. Any vets that are going to be put near the enemy could really use a support character. Oh well.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm definitely going to start trying the sniper PCS. Unless you have a ton of LOS blocking cover, the flamers just get hit when it's convenient for your opponent. The snipers let the squad start doing something early, and are really cheap. If the enemy wants to go after them early, they're going after a 39 point squad. It's also a cheap way to get not-terrible sniper rifles, so if you have cool sniper models you want to use, that's where they go.

We also lose the cheap hull H flamer.

Atheos wrote:Has anyone figured out if some of these HQs are getting 2 warlord traits? I see Pask as automatically having the Old Grudges... does he also get to roll on the table?

No. He replaces the roll with a set one. Only creed can get two warlord traits.

Biophysical wrote:Looking at it as a Chimera alternative in a mech-vet list with 6 squads, it saves you 90 points and gets you 9 autocannon hits a turn vs. 9 multilaser hits + whatever hull weapon the chimera brings.

Yeah, but is a couple of autocannon hits worth it to have your vehicles explode and fall apart more easily?

I can almost see the taurox prime in a list filled with hellhounds. All fast vehicles, all move 12" forward turn 1, and then flat-out another 12", so you start turn 2 in your opponent's deployment zone.

But this depends to a dangerous extent on getting first turn.

Biophysical wrote:It's the Relentless warlord trait, which spreads it to the squad.

Ah. Clever.

easysauce wrote:I would hardly brush off str 8 attacks, and melta bomb atttacks at being worthless against vehicles...

I'll easily brush off attacks I'll never get to make. Not without seriously risking key models to do it. Wound allocation's a bitch.

easysauce wrote:also considering that 50-100 of the guard will be str 4, thats more then enough to glance to death anything with av 10

There we go.

How many inquisitors can you ally into your army though? Would this just work for a single blob?

 Ailaros wrote:

Atheos wrote:Has anyone figured out if some of these HQs are getting 2 warlord traits? I see Pask as automatically having the Old Grudges... does he also get to roll on the table?

No. He replaces the roll with a set one. Only creed can get two warlord traits.

Biophysical wrote:Looking at it as a Chimera alternative in a mech-vet list with 6 squads, it saves you 90 points and gets you 9 autocannon hits a turn vs. 9 multilaser hits + whatever hull weapon the chimera brings.

Yeah, but is a couple of autocannon hits worth it to have your vehicles explode and fall apart more easily?

I can almost see the taurox prime in a list filled with hellhounds. All fast vehicles, all move 12" forward turn 1, and then flat-out another 12", so you start turn 2 in your opponent's deployment zone.

But this depends to a dangerous extent on getting first turn.

Biophysical wrote:It's the Relentless warlord trait, which spreads it to the squad.

Ah. Clever.

easysauce wrote:I would hardly brush off str 8 attacks, and melta bomb atttacks at being worthless against vehicles...

I'll easily brush off attacks I'll never get to make. Not without seriously risking key models to do it. Wound allocation's a bitch.

easysauce wrote:also considering that 50-100 of the guard will be str 4, thats more then enough to glance to death anything with av 10

There we go.

How many inquisitors can you ally into your army though? Would this just work for a single blob?

You can bring in 2 Allied inquisitors at 25 points a piece, upgrade them to ML1 for 30 points (total 55), then add 3 servo skulls @ 3 points a piece (because, you know, servo skulls) to bring them to 64 points.

I can't recall, but you may be able to use hammerhands twice with two seperate inquisitors. If so, using hammerhands twice in one unit will give you base guardsmen with S5 attacks, and your poweraxe sergeants striking at S6. Since the sergeants strike at a lower initiative, have them towards the rear of the unit and move up at their initiative step when several of your normal guardsmen have died. They'll be exposed for the next round of combat, but with all the wounds you should be putting out, you should be winning the combat anyways.

Or if I'm wrong on the hammerhands, you can give hammerhands to two different blob squads. Either way is decent.

You can only use a single psychic power once per turn, so it would be up to two S4 blobs. It's promising, but it also requires a leadership test (like most of the rest of the guard buffing). It would be nice to have something a bit more reliable.

Also, it would be nice to have an in-house solution, rather than needing allies to work.

 Ailaros wrote:
You can only use a single psychic power once per turn, so it would be up to two S4 blobs. It's promising, but it also requires a leadership test (like most of the rest of the guard buffing). It would be nice to have something a bit more reliable.

Also, it would be nice to have an in-house solution, rather than needing allies to work.

Hammerhand stacks, I believe it was in the FAQ (not that it exists right now, but whatever).

If you can find some good way to make Straken's 6" buff radius work for you, he'd obviously be a great HQ for a blob list. With conscripts and an Inquisitor you could get S5 charging conscripts. With regular guard blobs you could get S6 power axes (and with rad grenades, they would ID T4). Lots of things have to go right for that to work, though.

why on earth do you keep acting like the 5 M bomb holders and characters are auto dead?

they have to chew through 45 guys to get to them, in a single turn, or I just move the characters to the next squad..


I dont think you are actually thinking this through, you will get to make those attacks.. its not some fantasy land to think that 7 IC's with 100 ablative wounds will make it 24" in 2-3 turns before suffereing 100 casualties.

all the IC's but one preist go with conscripts, if he wants to even touch the IC's he has 50 wounds to go through.

he isnt getting to allocate wound to your IC's... even if he has 6+ snipers, to get one precision shot, you are an IC ignoreing it on a 2+... AND you have a 4++ failing that.

once he has chewed through 3-45 guys, you can put the IC's in the full 50 man GI squad.

first turn charge gives you rerolls to hit, hammer hand, rad grenades, two preist abilities, 4 force weapons with charges left, and 5 melta bomb attacks, and you can even get tank hunter/monster hunter VERY easily. 5 mbomb attacks, hitting on 3's, re rolling to hit, armour pen at 2d6 and a reroll... ap 1...

and you are just ignoring that completly....

believe me, I have been playing this list against the best build inthe game right now (eldar WS and FW spam) and its WRECKING them. never had less then 25GI's + the IC's by the time I charged.

why a ld 10 test is "risky" to you... I dont know, thats as safe as it gets,








Automatically Appended Next Post:

 rabidguineapig wrote:

Hammerhand stacks, I believe it was in the FAQ (not that it exists right now, but whatever).

it was not in the FAQ, its one of the most hotly argued things in 40k if the same power stacks with itself by default. not getting into this argument here, but all the tournaments I have been to do NOT allow stacking (as powers that DO stack with themselves all explicitly say it in their text)

that being said, withing a few months with the rules update that is rumoured, I hope GW will actually answer some FAQ"s for the first time in over a year so we at least have a concrete answer.

Inquisitors are Ld 10, they're pretty reliable. Unlike priests. We'll, priests reliably give fearless and hatred.

 Ailaros wrote:
You can only use a single psychic power once per turn, so it would be up to two S4 blobs. It's promising, but it also requires a leadership test (like most of the rest of the guard buffing). It would be nice to have something a bit more reliable.

Also, it would be nice to have an in-house solution, rather than needing allies to work.

While I understand your sentiment, Inquisitors would be weird to have access to inside the IG codex, and allying them in is somewhat fluffy (inquisitor being around before whatever conflict your fighting erupted into needing IG to sort out).

As it is, I'm having a wicked time trying to make 2000 point lists, theres just too much I want to try and experiment with. Thankfully my local scene isn't super strict on WYSIWIG as long as we declare the "counts as" before the game starts and have the army list available during play. Lets me try and deep strike two full storm trooper platoons without shelling out the $500+ it would cost to buy that many scions and such.

Reading through the 'dex at this point, I think the biggest threat to IG right now is....other IG. Enemy taking large amounts of blob squads. if you have a deathstrike, laugh as they try to make 2" spacing w/ 50 models and not occupy their whole deployment zone. They have Pask in a Punisher? Your Pask in a vanquisher will gib him and his squadron with ease, or you can use deepstriking Stormies.

Mavnas wrote:
Inquisitors are Ld 10, they're pretty reliable. Unlike priests. We'll, priests reliably give fearless and hatred.

dont have my codex on hand, ill check when I get home,

but your preists are LD 10 in effect, as I believe the hymm rule just calls for a standard LD test (which can be on the highest LD in the unit) as it is not called out like psychic powers are as being the casters specific LD.

that being said, even with ld 7, you pass more then you fail, and he is worht it for the zealot rule and fearless alone,

rabidguineapig wrote:Considering that you have to take another tank with Pask, don't squadrons require that the closest vehicle to the shooter is the one that gets hit?

I don't have a rulebook handy to double check that but the odds of Pask + 1-2 AV14 shields behind a blob for a 5+ along with Camo netting for a 4+ even when moving AND smoke on turn 1 the odds of him making it to within 24" is pretty good IMO. Put a Lascannon on him and boohoo you lose maybe 1-2 turns of the punisher cannon shooting while getting him into position with an extra deadly lascannon to hit a vehicle at range while he advances. This, and he gives preferred enemy to his squadron of tanks and can order them to split fire... He is a boss.

Mr.Omega wrote:

 alarmingrick wrote:


So you give a Punisher Pask bubble wrap it and leave it in your deployment zone? Or move it 6" a turn wrapped in bodies?
He's going to have to get within 30" to do his magic. I'd prefer him have more range. I hope I'm wrong about him. I just don't feel comfortable with him having a 24" - 30" threat range.

If he's in a squadron I'm pretty sure so long as you have his squadron buddies ahead of him hits are resolved against him last from your opponent's deployment based AT.

I see, very, very few people capable of killing multiple AV14 vehicles in a turn from the front, or even two turns, even Dark Eldar lances in Venom Spam builds will probably only kill at best 1 or 2 a turn before being blown to smithereens.

And then, if AV14 isn't enough, you have a massive defence in the offensive potential of issuing Full Throttle for 12+D6 movement on the first turn, should range even be an issue to begin with, and if you are in range but are still concerned with losing the tank Strike and Shroud, combined with perhaps camo-netting gives you a 5+/4+ cover after firing.

You make that even better, and consistent, by putting some Bullgryns in front with plate shields.

Considering the absurd brute strength of 29 S5 and 3 S4 shots with rending, P.E and BS4, its silly to not at least consider the PaskPunisher.

I feel that if I'm spending that much for Pask, I want him dealing death as fast as possible. I feel the 48" to 72" range suits my plans better.
I'm not saying the Punisher Pask combo won't rock face, it just takes too long and has to get too close before it does.

And I don't care how many different ways people approach the Wyvern, it boils down to Str 4/ AP 6.
No way I'm giving up a HS slot to that over a Basilisk, Manticore or Russ variant. Not even if it's buy one, get one free.

The best vehicle I honestly feel Pask is best in is a Punisher or a Executioner.

Add in some psychic support and you could have a squad with 20 shots that are twinlinked with rending at BS4.

That's nothing to just ignore. Especially if you back it up with him having a 20 shot Punisher, then Heavy bolters, then the two additional tanks with the 4 shot Autocannon. All rerolling misses, yeah that may not destroy vehicles but it will brutalize most infantry.

FYI pask only gives rending to the main gun, not the sponsons.

but that is another great strat out of this book, precision shots from lemen russes are awesome.

rending is pretty darn good on the main weapon alone, it would be rediculous if it actually applied to sponsons.

and as has been said, av 14 is a tough nut to crack when there is only 3 HP worth... 9+ is relly hard to deal with.

Yeah , I know the H. Bolters don't get rending.

You've also got to remember "cover" , Camo Cloaks, etc.. etc.. even out in the open it's a 6+ which isn't bad. Also, I am unsure if it stacks but they can shoot and fire smoke. So I am unsure if they get a additional bonus due to the camo cloaks.

I think it's a great combo to have him in a squad w/ a punisher. Having 20 Possibly precision , rending shots is not pleasant. He'll tear apart Heldrakes and Flying Creatures. Especially if you have a Primaris Backing that squad up.

 Ailaros wrote:

Biophysical wrote:Looking at it as a Chimera alternative in a mech-vet list with 6 squads, it saves you 90 points and gets you 9 autocannon hits a turn vs. 9 multilaser hits + whatever hull weapon the chimera brings.

Yeah, but is a couple of autocannon hits worth it to have your vehicles explode and fall apart more easily?

Maybe. I'm just saying it's not terrible. I don't know exactly what sort of army it would work best in, and I doubt I'll ever find out (butt-ugly model at $1 per point is hard to get over), but it's obviously not complete trash.

Biophysical wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

Biophysical wrote:Looking at it as a Chimera alternative in a mech-vet list with 6 squads, it saves you 90 points and gets you 9 autocannon hits a turn vs. 9 multilaser hits + whatever hull weapon the chimera brings.

Yeah, but is a couple of autocannon hits worth it to have your vehicles explode and fall apart more easily?

Maybe. I'm just saying it's not terrible. I don't know exactly what sort of army it would work best in, and I doubt I'll ever find out (butt-ugly model at $1 per point is hard to get over), but it's obviously not complete trash.

But from my, just my, point of view it is terrible trash.
I've been collecting/playing for a long time. So long that it is not worth it for me to spend $200+ USD to get four to find out if the AC shots are worth it over the ML.
I'll take my chances that I'm missing out on how awesome that ugly truck is.

 rabidguineapig wrote:

Hammerhand stacks, I believe it was in the FAQ (not that it exists right now, but whatever).

it was not in the FAQ, its one of the most hotly argued things in 40k if the same power stacks with itself by default. not getting into this argument here, but all the tournaments I have been to do NOT allow stacking (as powers that DO stack with themselves all explicitly say it in their text)

that being said, withing a few months with the rules update that is rumoured, I hope GW will actually answer some FAQ"s for the first time in over a year so we at least have a concrete answer.

easysauce wrote:why on earth do you keep acting like the 5 M bomb holders and characters are auto dead?

they have to chew through 45 guys to get to them, in a single turn, or I just move the characters to the next squad..


I dont think you are actually thinking this through, you will get to make those attacks.. its not some fantasy land to think that 7 IC's with 100 ablative wounds will make it 24" in 2-3 turns before suffereing 100 casualties.

I've played foot guard long enough to see this happen dozens of times. Killing through 45 guardsmen isn't that difficult.

What happens is that you move 6"+D6" forwards, and then your opponent kills off 30 guardsmen, and they all are taken from the front, which means the blob in effect moves backwards several inches, which means that you really didn't get to move forward that much. It could take several turns to get to where you want to go - and in that time, they'll be made dead. The only way to mitigate this problem is by bunching up, which means you take more casualties and probably advance across the table more slowly.

And then you have those characters. If they're near the front of the squad, they get killed because you have to assign wounds to the closest model, and if you keep them in the back, then it takes them longer to actually get to use their close combat abilities - and in that time, they'll be dead.

I don't think you've seen enough opponents who are serious about their anti-infantry capabilities. Guardsmen melt like snow to the blowtorch against opponents who know what they're doing.

The only reason why I'm even considering it at all is because two infantry platoons can put down 200 dudes, which just might get some models somewhere other than an early grave. But it only counts if they can do something once they get there. Having a couple of priests and a couple of psykers isn't going to cut it, especially if your opponent has a lot of vehicles on their side of the table (or worse, speedbumps).

Ideas of guardsmen triumphantly breaking cover and storming the other side of the board, smashing into whatever dares oppose them is a figment of the rules and meta that existed 4 years ago. It's just imaginary now.

rabidguineapig wrote:Hammerhand stacks, I believe it was in the FAQ (not that it exists right now, but whatever).

Even if it does, we're talking about a single blob, though. That does not a foot guard list make. Yeah, they do get to abandon ship once the squad in front gets massacred, but still...

Ailaros, that's why you throw Azrael in there - to give them all 4++.

I think stacking Hammerhand was a GK thing that didn't translate over to inquisition.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Ailaros, that's why you throw Azrael in there - to give them all 4++.

Bullgryns can give them a 4+ cover save, a wall of Russes can move in time with them too up the board completely blocking LOS, Cypher can give them shrouded and fleet, you can use Conscript meatshields as a first wave, Sentinels also provide cover and fire support, as well as potentially Heavy Flamer deterrents. The list goes on.

I have also just realised that Straken's Company Command Squad can take, move, shoot and charge with Sniper Rifles. Interesting against MC's for sure.

Unless I'm missing something Pask is only worth it if he's getting 20 rending shots or your warlord. In a tank he only twin links you'd be better off saving the points and getting a generic tank commander since a psyker should be twin linking the whole unit, or am I missing something?

I should mention I'm thinking about this in terms of an allied detachment so he won't be warlord.

 easysauce wrote:
but your preists are LD 10 in effect, as I believe the hymm rule just calls for a standard LD test (which can be on the highest LD in the unit) as it is not called out like psychic powers are as being the casters specific LD.

The rule states that the Priest can take a leadership test, not the unit. You only use the highest value when it is the unit that is taking the test.

Mavnas wrote:
Unless I'm missing something Pask is only worth it if he's getting 20 rending shots or your warlord. In a tank he only twin links you'd be better off saving the points and getting a generic tank commander since a psyker should be twin linking the whole unit, or am I missing something?

I should mention I'm thinking about this in terms of an allied detachment so he won't be warlord.

I disagree.

For a start, Pask gives Preferred Enemy to his entire squadron. If you're fielding any of the Russes that wound on 2's, that's effectively re-rolls to wound on those tanks, which no psyker can give you.

The Executioner large pie plate has blind - in some cases, its extremely useful for reducing more average enemy infantry to WS/BS1. This effect even has a 1/3 chance to work against Marines. Plus, its a built in, cheaper way to make Executioners viable without prescience bots by re-rolling all of those damned Gets Hot! rolls.

I've already lost an Executioner because to one of those random GH! HP losses.

 Mr.Omega wrote:


For a start, Pask gives Preferred Enemy to his entire squadron. If you're fielding any of the Russes that wound on 2's, that's effectively re-rolls to wound on those tanks, which no psyker can give you.

As Mavnas said, only if he's your warlord. His preferred enemy rule is due to the 'Old Grudges' trait, which is only usable if he's your warlord.

Firstly, Azrael requires you to ally space marines, and can only work on a single unit.

Secondly, the invul save does help, of course, but it's a matter of scale not of scope. It limits casualties, but it doesn't fix wound allocation rules, for example.

Well I guess the Hammerhand discussion is a big bunch of garbled gak haha, so we should probably leave that for another thread.

Honestly despite the general discussion of this thread being less geared toward tactics and more geared toward what units we perceive to be good and bad without play testing, the vibe I'm getting is that there are a ton of OPTIONS in this Codex which is awesome. Hopefully a few weeks of play testing will uncover more than one option for a competitive list.

 Ailaros wrote:

Atheos wrote:Has anyone figured out if some of these HQs are getting 2 warlord traits? I see Pask as automatically having the Old Grudges... does he also get to roll on the table?

No. He replaces the roll with a set one. Only creed can get two warlord traits.

Well then on that note, if I purchase two tank commanders and nominate one as Pask and the standard one as Warlord... does his given warlord trait become null?

 Atheos wrote:


Well then on that note, if I purchase two tank commanders and nominate one as Pask and the standard one as Warlord... does his given warlord trait become null?

Yes.

Seeing as how only your warlord can use a warlord trait. The other guy just gets to roll D3 per normal, and has a 1/3 chanced to get exactly what Pask does anyways, unless you're hoping for outflanking units or something.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Atheos wrote:


Well then on that note, if I purchase two tank commanders and nominate one as Pask and the standard one as Warlord... does his given warlord trait become null?

Yes.

Seeing as how only your warlord can use a warlord trait. The other guy just gets to roll D3 per normal, and has a 1/3 chanced to get exactly what Pask does anyways, unless you're hoping for outflanking units or something.

I tend to run hellhounds/banewolves, so I'd prefer the outflanking units quite honestly. It's why I was hoping Pask could have 2 traits lol.

Pask is still crazy good for what he does point wise and otherwise if you take a Leman Russ Squadron you should take him, the only reason you shouldn't is if you don't want really good tanks.

Why is everyone trying to build deathstar? Beside the fact most *-stars are boring as hell, trying to make it from guard seems really unreasonable to me. Maybe some tricks with Pask, but so far new IG benefits heavily from rather many effective units and ability to soak up damage with a lot of bodies meanwhile surviving ones kicks and bites thanks to amazing orders.

IMO is more effective to go totally different way. Have more options, use fakt that even mere footsloggers can snipe important models from unit, solid firepower across the table and abilty to improvise with wide scale of orders and gakton of troops.

Hollismason wrote:
Pask is still crazy good for what he does point wise and otherwise if you take a Leman Russ Squadron you should take him, the only reason you shouldn't is if you don't want really good tanks.

Well, points could come into play too in all fairness. I still feel quantity is still a form of quality with the IG/AM.
I've never been big on too many upgrades, and try to keep from dumping too many points in one place.

 UlrikDecado wrote:
Why is everyone trying to build deathstar? Beside the fact most *-stars are boring as hell, trying to make it from guard seems really unreasonable to me. Maybe some tricks with Pask, but so far new IG benefits heavily from rather many effective units and ability to soak up damage with a lot of bodies meanwhile surviving ones kicks and bites thanks to amazing orders.

IMO is more effective to go totally different way. Have more options, use fakt that even mere footsloggers can snipe important models from unit, solid firepower across the table and abilty to improvise with wide scale of orders and gakton of troops.

Totally agree! Even with a 4++ from Belial (which, frankly, means wasting points of Dark Angels units and is probably a bad idea), we're still talking about T3 models that don't do a ton of damage, especially against armor or high toughness units. I cannot imagine Tau or Eldar NOT blowing one of these "stars" off the table before they do anything of use. Having some obscene number of guardsmen and/or conscripts on the table sounds good, and making them fearless sounds VERY good, but pouring 500 points into one IG unit and expecting it to do the damage or have the impact that a Jet-star or Beast-star or O'Vesa-star have sounds ludicrous to me.

Sorry if its been asked/discussed. But how decent is the telepathy psyker in the command squad?

In all my years I have almost never used powers (used the battle squad a few times), but my current list has tones of them with the new codex. I have a telepathy guy who got invisibility (which looks awesome on paper) for my next game.

He was pretty cheap I thought, but the primaris power kinda sucks, any good or better off just using the primaris psykers (which are cool on paper too it seems)?

 Coyote81 wrote:
I'm surprised more people aren't talking about the new and improved Commissar Lord Yarrick. 2 orders, commissar ability, 4++, T4, EW, IC with PE:Orks (which confers to his squad fyi. S6 powerfist and can get back up from death on a 3+, infinite times. Aura of discipline as well as having a fairly awesome Warlord trait that prevents morale checks within 12".

Seems too good to be true honestly.

Too silly to be true is more like it.

 tomjoad wrote:

 UlrikDecado wrote:
Why is everyone trying to build deathstar? Beside the fact most *-stars are boring as hell, trying to make it from guard seems really unreasonable to me. Maybe some tricks with Pask, but so far new IG benefits heavily from rather many effective units and ability to soak up damage with a lot of bodies meanwhile surviving ones kicks and bites thanks to amazing orders.

IMO is more effective to go totally different way. Have more options, use fakt that even mere footsloggers can snipe important models from unit, solid firepower across the table and abilty to improvise with wide scale of orders and gakton of troops.

Totally agree! Even with a 4++ from Belial (which, frankly, means wasting points of Dark Angels units and is probably a bad idea), we're still talking about T3 models that don't do a ton of damage, especially against armor or high toughness units. I cannot imagine Tau or Eldar NOT blowing one of these "stars" off the table before they do anything of use. Having some obscene number of guardsmen and/or conscripts on the table sounds good, and making them fearless sounds VERY good, but pouring 500 points into one IG unit and expecting it to do the damage or have the impact that a Jet-star or Beast-star or O'Vesa-star have sounds ludicrous to me.

That's only because you're biased against the idea of S3 T3 Guardsmen. Forget that they're Guardsmen.

Instead, imagine that they're a unit with a 4++, S5, 2A each on the charge, fearless, rerolling failed invulns, failed to-hit rolls, and failed to-wound rolls, against targets that are -1 Toughness.

The power of the IG Deathstar has to do with throwing a red carpet of Special Characters in there and buffing them far beyond the power of regular Guardsmen...

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 tomjoad wrote:

 UlrikDecado wrote:
Why is everyone trying to build deathstar? Beside the fact most *-stars are boring as hell, trying to make it from guard seems really unreasonable to me. Maybe some tricks with Pask, but so far new IG benefits heavily from rather many effective units and ability to soak up damage with a lot of bodies meanwhile surviving ones kicks and bites thanks to amazing orders.

IMO is more effective to go totally different way. Have more options, use fakt that even mere footsloggers can snipe important models from unit, solid firepower across the table and abilty to improvise with wide scale of orders and gakton of troops.

Totally agree! Even with a 4++ from Belial (which, frankly, means wasting points of Dark Angels units and is probably a bad idea), we're still talking about T3 models that don't do a ton of damage, especially against armor or high toughness units. I cannot imagine Tau or Eldar NOT blowing one of these "stars" off the table before they do anything of use. Having some obscene number of guardsmen and/or conscripts on the table sounds good, and making them fearless sounds VERY good, but pouring 500 points into one IG unit and expecting it to do the damage or have the impact that a Jet-star or Beast-star or O'Vesa-star have sounds ludicrous to me.

That's only because you're biased against the idea of S3 T3 Guardsmen. Forget that they're Guardsmen.

Instead, imagine that they're a unit with a 4++, S5, 2A each on the charge, fearless, rerolling failed invulns, failed to-hit rolls, and failed to-wound rolls, against targets that are -1 Toughness.

The power of the IG Deathstar has to do with throwing a red carpet of Special Characters in there and buffing them far beyond the power of regular Guardsmen...

But you can't forget that they're guardsmen. That's the problem. Too fragile.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Instead, imagine that they're a unit with a 4++, S5, 2A each on the charge, fearless, rerolling failed invulns, failed to-hit rolls, and failed to-wound rolls, against targets that are -1 Toughness.

The power of the IG Deathstar has to do with throwing a red carpet of Special Characters in there and buffing them far beyond the power of regular Guardsmen...

... but they're still just T3, WS3. Relying on a 4++ save to stay alive, which, even as a re-rollable isn't good odds.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 tomjoad wrote:

 UlrikDecado wrote:
Why is everyone trying to build deathstar? Beside the fact most *-stars are boring as hell, trying to make it from guard seems really unreasonable to me. Maybe some tricks with Pask, but so far new IG benefits heavily from rather many effective units and ability to soak up damage with a lot of bodies meanwhile surviving ones kicks and bites thanks to amazing orders.

IMO is more effective to go totally different way. Have more options, use fakt that even mere footsloggers can snipe important models from unit, solid firepower across the table and abilty to improvise with wide scale of orders and gakton of troops.

Totally agree! Even with a 4++ from Belial (which, frankly, means wasting points of Dark Angels units and is probably a bad idea), we're still talking about T3 models that don't do a ton of damage, especially against armor or high toughness units. I cannot imagine Tau or Eldar NOT blowing one of these "stars" off the table before they do anything of use. Having some obscene number of guardsmen and/or conscripts on the table sounds good, and making them fearless sounds VERY good, but pouring 500 points into one IG unit and expecting it to do the damage or have the impact that a Jet-star or Beast-star or O'Vesa-star have sounds ludicrous to me.

That's only because you're biased against the idea of S3 T3 Guardsmen. Forget that they're Guardsmen.

Instead, imagine that they're a unit with a 4++, S5, 2A each on the charge, fearless, rerolling failed invulns, failed to-hit rolls, and failed to-wound rolls, against targets that are -1 Toughness.

The power of the IG Deathstar has to do with throwing a red carpet of Special Characters in there and buffing them far beyond the power of regular Guardsmen...

There has to be a tipping point where their immobility (helped slightly by orders) mixed with their lack of firepower makes the point cost of all those buffs pointless, and better spent on firepower elsewhere. They are more than regular guardsmen for sure but seriously, dumping 1/3 of a guard army into something that can't shoot worth a might be a bad idea.

Its also just so gimmicky.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Instead, imagine that they're a unit with a 4++, S5, 2A each on the charge, fearless, rerolling failed invulns, failed to-hit rolls, and failed to-wound rolls, against targets that are -1 Toughness.

The power of the IG Deathstar has to do with throwing a red carpet of Special Characters in there and buffing them far beyond the power of regular Guardsmen...

... but they're still just T3, WS3. Relying on a 4++ save to stay alive, which, even as a re-rollable isn't good odds.

except there are 100 of them.....

would you buy a t3 character with 50 wounds and EW? yes you would, and you would never scoff at his durability...

t3 x 50 @ 5pts or 3 pts for conscripts is hugely durable...

you guys keep saying 50-100 guard will be wiped out in two turns, yet even WS spam, 6 WS's rolling 6 cover ignoring wounds per turn (they wont, but lets pretend they roll significantly ABOVE average for # of shots, auto hit, and auto wound),

even that mythical 6 WS with perfect rolls will not wipe out 100 guard before they charge with 20+IC's left....

so pray, do tell me, what mythical army gets more anti infantry then WS spam? because if WS spam isnt killing all of them, nothing else is.

you are also ignoring that they need to dedicate their entire army to shooting 700 pts worth blob+Ic's... and they are not shooting your artillary/HW's/tanks.

I think a good approach to foot guard is to try and thread that (rather large) needle between 100% chaff and deathstar. Guardsmen die quickly, but are cheap, so you have to figure how how to get a lot of them and add the right amount of support to get your buffs but not get diminishing returns or put all your eggs in once basket.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Instead, imagine that they're a unit with a 4++, S5, 2A each on the charge, fearless, rerolling failed invulns, failed to-hit rolls, and failed to-wound rolls, against targets that are -1 Toughness.

The power of the IG Deathstar has to do with throwing a red carpet of Special Characters in there and buffing them far beyond the power of regular Guardsmen...

... but they're still just T3, WS3. Relying on a 4++ save to stay alive, which, even as a re-rollable isn't good odds.

It's saving your meager 5 point dude 50% of the time. If it's rerollable it's saving him 75% of the time. What do you consider "good odds?"

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Instead, imagine that they're a unit with a 4++, S5, 2A each on the charge, fearless, rerolling failed invulns, failed to-hit rolls, and failed to-wound rolls, against targets that are -1 Toughness.

None of which matters if they don't survive long enough to use them.

This all looks like the same problem with wyverns. Look, they're twin-linked! And they have shred, and barrage, and ignores cover, and can be made to split-fire, and has lots of shots, and, and, and...

... and they're still an AV12 open-topped vehicle doing crummy damage with S4 Ap6.

The absolute top line of what they can do isn't a good way to judge squads. It's better to be more realistic.

UlrikDecado wrote:Why is everyone trying to build deathstar? Beside the fact most *-stars are boring as hell, trying to make it from guard seems really unreasonable to me. Maybe some tricks with Pask, but so far new IG benefits heavily from rather many effective units and ability to soak up damage with a lot of bodies meanwhile surviving ones kicks and bites thanks to amazing orders.

IMO is more effective to go totally different way. Have more options, use fakt that even mere footsloggers can snipe important models from unit, solid firepower across the table and abilty to improvise with wide scale of orders and gakton of troops.

Personally, I'm not trying to make a deathstar (and am slightly hostile to the idea as well).

What I want from foot guard is for them to play like foot guard. I want them to not be stuck cowering behind an aegis, but to be able to run forward and, despite horrible casualties, be able to get stuck in and grind stuff down through attrition.

The problem is that I'm just not seeing how the new codex fixed this. They still have durability problems just getting somewhere, much less surviving an attrition fight, much less doing enough damage to win said fight. I really want this to be true, and badly, but I'm not going to get suckered into an illusion of past glory (which is why I'm arguing so hard against it). I don't think that having a single deathstar blob is seriously better now than it was before this codex came out, and it's sort of against the point of what I'm trying to do. I want to make a foot guard army that does well (well enough, rather), not to make a single deathstar while a bunch of dudes and russes hide behind an aegis and shout "zap" a bunch.

 easysauce wrote:


Logical things...

Precisely.

 easysauce wrote:
so pray, do tell me, what mythical army gets more anti infantry then WS spam? because if WS spam isnt killing all of them, nothing else is.

Imperial Guard, I think.

 Ailaros wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Instead, imagine that they're a unit with a 4++, S5, 2A each on the charge, fearless, rerolling failed invulns, failed to-hit rolls, and failed to-wound rolls, against targets that are -1 Toughness.

None of which matters if they don't survive long enough to use them.

This all looks like the same problem with wyverns. Look, they're twin-linked! And they have shred, and barrage, and ignores cover, and can be made to split-fire, and has lots of shots, and, and, and...

... and they're still an AV12 open-topped vehicle doing crummy damage with S4 Ap6.

The absolute top line of what they can do isn't a good way to judge squads. It's better to be more realistic.

UlrikDecado wrote:Why is everyone trying to build deathstar? Beside the fact most *-stars are boring as hell, trying to make it from guard seems really unreasonable to me. Maybe some tricks with Pask, but so far new IG benefits heavily from rather many effective units and ability to soak up damage with a lot of bodies meanwhile surviving ones kicks and bites thanks to amazing orders.

IMO is more effective to go totally different way. Have more options, use fakt that even mere footsloggers can snipe important models from unit, solid firepower across the table and abilty to improvise with wide scale of orders and gakton of troops.

Personally, I'm not trying to make a deathstar (and am slightly hostile to the idea as well).

What I want from foot guard is for them to play like foot guard. I want them to not be stuck cowering behind an aegis, but to be able to run forward and, despite horrible casualties, be able to get stuck in and grind stuff down through attrition.

The problem is that I'm just not seeing how the new codex fixed this. They still have durability problems just getting somewhere, much less surviving an attrition fight, much less doing enough damage to win said fight. I really want this to be true, and badly, but I'm not going to get suckered into an illusion of past glory (which is why I'm arguing so hard against it). I don't think that having a single deathstar blob is seriously better now than it was before this codex came out, and it's sort of against the point of what I'm trying to do. I want to make a foot guard army that does well (well enough, rather), not to make a single deathstar while a bunch of dudes and russes hide behind an aegis and shout "zap" a bunch.

Ailaros, let's be honest here...you got roughed up playing foot guard when the game transitioned from 5th to 6th edition, and you're experiencing proactive interference to the idea that a new codex could actually open up new options.

Did you ever actually try making your Guardsmen more resilient? Not as far as I could tell from your batreps. This is merely a rehashing of your attitude toward the Vendetta: it's "cheesy" so you're hostile to it, yet the way you argue against it is to say that it sucks. Very disingenuous IMO.

You're saying that you want to play foot IG as foot IG: "I want them to not be stuck cowering behind an aegis, but to be able to run forward and, despite horrible casualties, be able to get stuck in and grind stuff down through attrition." That's your first problem. Guys with a 4++ and 4++ rerollable in H2H aren't "fragile" any more than Space Marines are fragile, with their non-invulnerable 3+ in an environment where everything is AP3 or better.

In case you haven't noticed, this isn't a "sit behind the Aegis" kind of idea, and the Guardstar actually prefers to be in H2H where it can reroll to hit, to wound, with a gak ton of S5 attacks against -1 T enemies. It's aggressive as hell, and it's not really that expensive. It's also got great situational flexibility. Enemy fielding missile 'sides or Serpent Spam? Put the Russes in front of the infantry. Enemy fielding lots of melta guns? Guardsmen go up front.

 alarmingrick wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 tomjoad wrote:

 UlrikDecado wrote:
Why is everyone trying to build deathstar? Beside the fact most *-stars are boring as hell, trying to make it from guard seems really unreasonable to me. Maybe some tricks with Pask, but so far new IG benefits heavily from rather many effective units and ability to soak up damage with a lot of bodies meanwhile surviving ones kicks and bites thanks to amazing orders.

IMO is more effective to go totally different way. Have more options, use fakt that even mere footsloggers can snipe important models from unit, solid firepower across the table and abilty to improvise with wide scale of orders and gakton of troops.

Totally agree! Even with a 4++ from Belial (which, frankly, means wasting points of Dark Angels units and is probably a bad idea), we're still talking about T3 models that don't do a ton of damage, especially against armor or high toughness units. I cannot imagine Tau or Eldar NOT blowing one of these "stars" off the table before they do anything of use. Having some obscene number of guardsmen and/or conscripts on the table sounds good, and making them fearless sounds VERY good, but pouring 500 points into one IG unit and expecting it to do the damage or have the impact that a Jet-star or Beast-star or O'Vesa-star have sounds ludicrous to me.

That's only because you're biased against the idea of S3 T3 Guardsmen. Forget that they're Guardsmen.

Instead, imagine that they're a unit with a 4++, S5, 2A each on the charge, fearless, rerolling failed invulns, failed to-hit rolls, and failed to-wound rolls, against targets that are -1 Toughness.

The power of the IG Deathstar has to do with throwing a red carpet of Special Characters in there and buffing them far beyond the power of regular Guardsmen...

But you can't forget that they're guardsmen. That's the problem. Too fragile.

If you find guardsmen too fragile, you need to find another army to play. You aren't playing the super-humans in plot armor, or insane xenos.The IG are the loads of grunts and scrubs, designed to die in droves. There is a reason that it costs 130-140 points for TEN space marines, but 130 points is 20 guardsmen + a PCS, or 150 points for 30 guardsmen/50 conscripts. Those 10 space marines can kill at most 10 guardsmen at 24", or 20 within 12". 20 Guardsmen can put out 20 shots at 24"/40 shots with FRFSRF. Guards entire design philosophy is to be less effective per model, just have many more models to make up for it.

The idea of guard deathstars is that they won't exist in a vacuum. Any deathstar should be accompanied by conscript hordes and standard MSU's to claim objectives, then take 1 or 2 Russes/Deathstrike Missiles in your backline to absorb some of their shooting as the proverbial distraction carnifexes. Basically, you should be along the strategic philosophy of having more bodies than they have bullets, or time in which to shoot them all.

I wouldn't claim it to be an a perfect idea, but certain xenos armies would have a harder time of dealing with it than say, IG themselves. The way I'm looking at the codex, I'm seeing more counters to what IG can do in their very own Codex. A swarmy footguard list would be reamed by a pask/punisher squad accompanied by deathstrike missiles. Said pask/punisher list would be destroyed by a list heavy on vanquishers. And so forth.

Biophysical wrote:
I think a good approach to foot guard is to try and thread that (rather large) needle between 100% chaff and deathstar. Guardsmen die quickly, but are cheap, so you have to figure how how to get a lot of them and add the right amount of support to get your buffs but not get diminishing returns or put all your eggs in once basket.

Spot on^^, if all you want is an annoying objective holder just toss a Primaris Psyker and a Priest or two in a squad of 50 conscripts for a grand total of ~250 points and at a bare minimum they have twin-linked lasgun shooting and won't get knocked off an objective because of a failed morale test. Spread them out a bit and even with a bunch of large blasts it'll take your opponent a while to kill ALL of them. And seriously, who wants to waste a bunch of shooting on conscripts when there is so much else that is shooting them to pieces? If your opponent wants to focus fire them, that means something else far shootier is living an extra turn or two.

If you're going to buff the crap out of a squad you might as well make it something that can shoot, like say 40-50 standard guardsmen (you have to take 20 of them to get Conscripts anyway) with Lascannons and Plasma Guns that will threaten anything on the table at both range and in CC. Conscripts are just not versatile/shooty enough to warrant 300+ points of special characters to buff them.

yeah, thats my favorite thing about the two blobs + the various IC's as a cornerstone of the IG army.

if I dont need to send 100 guys into the enemies deployment zone, I can move around the IC's as required, and since one of my blobs is regular GI's, I can split them up as needed.

same with the pyskers, they can stay back and twin link all the artillary/HWS/tanks/ect or they can move forward to engage MC's or things that need force weaponing.

green tide, or guard blast/template spam are very hard counters to this kind of thing, but again, play your army right, split the combined squad up and spread out against other guard while you advance, or simply shoot the orks while they close and counter charge.

this build has a lot more tactical flexability then you are giving it credit for... and its laughable to hear it called "harmless" against vehicles with everyone in the blob being str 4, and having 5 meltabombs, all with rerolls to hit at WORST, at best rerolls to hit, pen, with armbane for 2d6, and half of your pens blowing the famn thing up, it become a very effective unit against pretty much anything.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Ailaros, let's be honest here...you got roughed up playing foot guard when the game transitioned from 5th to 6th edition

"Poor Ailaros got his little feelings hurt" is irrelevant. It also won't make a single blob "deathstar" survive long enough to be useful. I don't need to have subjective experience to see how plainly the new codex didn't change the core rules, and the core problems.

Nor am I going to be convinced by arguments that are little more than "it will just work out somehow" and "it's totally good enough", while ignoring all of the underlying detail. Force of will alone won't make a blobstar work.

Biophysical wrote:I think a good approach to foot guard is to try and thread that (rather large) needle between 100% chaff and deathstar. Guardsmen die quickly, but are cheap, so you have to figure how how to get a lot of them and add the right amount of support to get your buffs but not get diminishing returns or put all your eggs in once basket.

Okay, so how?

Honestly, if it weren't such a pain to move 200 guys, I think you'd be better off moderately buffing multiple guardsmen blobs.

A SM CM is more expensive than a conscript blob. Adding 25 pt priests and 78 point inquisitors with grenades and Hammerhand aren't too expensive.

Heck, priest + inquisitor + 50 conscripts is just over 250 pts. Enemy manages to kill them in a couple turns? So what... Send in the next wave (At 250 points you can do that without the special rule).

What's the cheapest IC that can let them flank? Moving 4 blobs all from your deployment zone will get crowded fast.

 kir44n wrote:
If you find guardsmen too fragile, you need to find another army to play. ........

I know what I'm playing, Thanks!!!
I just use their fragility in a different way. More like accept it and work around it as best as possible.
Not saying you can't go hog wild, just don't tell me to find another army if I don't want to go down the same path.

Infantry Guard thought experiment:

40 Conscripts, priest = 145
40 Conscripts, priest = 145
6 Infantry Squads (2 blobs, each with an inquisitor) = 620
2 Platoon Command Squads, with some stuff = 100

This is about a 1000 point core of infantry. It's got 154 dudes. That's going to be hard to kill, no matter how you run it. It has rock-hard psychology, with 6 scoring units (4 that are durable). The conscripts can't really take any vehicles on, but you've got 500+ points to add some stuff that can eliminate problem units at range. Maybe stormtroopers so you can strike them in and remove the thing that the conscripts can't deal with, then let the conscripts hold the objective.

It's quite true that 40 guardsmen can be killed under the proper circumstances, how hilarious is it if your opponent is shooting at conscripts? They're 3 points a model! It's got to be the most inefficient thing there is for any unit to shoot at.

 alarmingrick wrote:

 kir44n wrote:
If you find guardsmen too fragile, you need to find another army to play. ........

I know what I'm playing, Thanks!!!
I just use their fragility in a different way. More like accept it and work around it as best as possible.
Not saying you can't go hog wild, just don't tell me to find another army if I don't want to go down the same path.

Its not a matter of going down the same path. I just don't find the idea of the deathstar instantly worthless as it has been implied due to guard "frailty". When you examine the majority of the criticism, its that guardsmen themselves are too "soft" to warrant buffing. And honestly that is getting on my nerves. I mean, lets look at the whole azreal + 50 guardsmen one. With 50 guardsmen you need at minimum of 50 shots hitting, wounding, and failing the saves to do that. If your shooting at BS 3, you need ~100 shots to achieve just the hitting. At BS 4 you'd need ~77 shots to achieve that. Factoring in wounding you can increase the number alittle more. Now with the 4+ invuln save, you can double that number again. And thats the number of shots you need to make to kill said unit in shooting. That amount of shooting should damn near kill anything outside of the truly ludicrious deathstars. And since you won't get an entire blob into close combat anyways due to spacing, most of that blob is just there to GET you to the other end of the table, not be effective in combat.

So I'm not really trying to tell you to stop playing guard, its just I find the "oh, guardsmen are too weak at T3 to worth it" to be a little stale. We all know guardsmen die. Thats why we have the 50 man blob instead of 10. And outside of large blast/apoc blasts, you need a crapton of shooting to get through 50 models with a 4++. I mean, if 50 guardsmen is too vulnerable with 4++, do you need 60, 70, 100 guardsmen at 4++ to be survivable? Or do we need to increase it to 3++ at 50? At what point do we transition from "this is decently survivable" to "now its nearly unkillable".

And now, because I can, I'll drop the Forgeworld/Escalation argument. If people find the only problem with the deathstar is getting it across the board, get a Crassus. Or if your meta doesn't allow FW, use escalations Stormlord. And if people find AV14 9HP super-heavies too vulnerable to use....I'll go back to asking where is the line between survivable and unkillable?

The above list is 4 durable blobs, each of which is deadly to infantry and some other targets.

Still just brainstorming, I wonder if you just start the game with 2 priests, 2 Primaris Psykers, and 2 Inquisitors and the above 4 blobs + PCS. Depending on what you face, you can alter your strategy and psykic powers. Enemy all meched up? Inquisitors go in with Conscripts to give hammerhand to the front rank to glance vehicles to death. Playing against a shooty castle? Use your four psyker rolls to fish for Forwarning for the 4++ and use that squad to help protect the rest.

You really have a ton of flexibility in what you want each unit to do. You can just make new units based on what you want to complete the mission, with strengths dependent on the psykic powers that your 4 psykers can roll for (or just get automatically).

 kir44n wrote:

 alarmingrick wrote:

 kir44n wrote:
If you find guardsmen too fragile, you need to find another army to play. ........

I know what I'm playing, Thanks!!!
I just use their fragility in a different way. More like accept it and work around it as best as possible.
Not saying you can't go hog wild, just don't tell me to find another army if I don't want to go down the same path.

Its not a matter of going down the same path. I just don't find the idea of the deathstar instantly worthless as it has been implied due to guard "frailty". When you examine the majority of the criticism, its that guardsmen themselves are too "soft" to warrant buffing. And honestly that is getting on my nerves. I mean, lets look at the whole azreal + 50 guardsmen one. With 50 guardsmen you need at minimum of 50 shots hitting, wounding, and failing the saves to do that. If your shooting at BS 3, you need ~100 shots to achieve just the hitting. At BS 4 you'd need ~77 shots to achieve that. Factoring in wounding you can increase the number alittle more. Now with the 4+ invuln save, you can double that number again. And thats the number of shots you need to make to kill said unit in shooting. That amount of shooting should damn near kill anything outside of the truly ludicrious deathstars. And since you won't get an entire blob into close combat anyways due to spacing, most of that blob is just there to GET you to the other end of the table, not be effective in combat.

So I'm not really trying to tell you to stop playing guard, its just I find the "oh, guardsmen are too weak at T3 to worth it" to be a little stale. We all know guardsmen die. Thats why we have the 50 man blob instead of 10. And outside of large blast/apoc blasts, you need a crapton of shooting to get through 50 models with a 4++. I mean, if 50 guardsmen is too vulnerable with 4++, do you need 60, 70, 100 guardsmen at 4++ to be survivable? Or do we need to increase it to 3++ at 50? At what point do we transition from "this is decently survivable" to "now its nearly unkillable".

And now, because I can, I'll drop the Forgeworld/Escalation argument. If people find the only problem with the deathstar is getting it across the board, get a Crassus. Or if your meta doesn't allow FW, use escalations Stormlord. And if people find AV14 9HP super-heavies too vulnerable to use....I'll go back to asking where is the line between survivable and unkillable?

If that is your playstyle, go for it. I feel they are too weak to buff up past a certain point.
instead of putting alot of points on one squad, I'd rather have smaller cookie cutter squads.
If it's good take 3 or 4 has been the IG/AM motto for a long time.

I'm no where near ready to start throwing out lists. Still waiting on my dex.
But I tend to go more for a CCS maxed with SW instead of characters. If I run tank cs, I feel I'd be more inclined to go with two regular ones than pask and a generic.

HOnestly, Its not my playstyle. I play heavily mechanized lists that will occassionally use footguard for orders/light infantry fighters. And it sucks you're still waiting on your dex. I picked mine up last night, made 4 lists today that I'm waiting on my group to use ^^

Ailaros wrote:
What I want from foot guard is for them to play like foot guard. I want them to not be stuck cowering behind an aegis, but to be able to run forward and, despite horrible casualties, be able to get stuck in and grind stuff down through attrition.

Ailaros, I think you may be an Ork player at heart. Im glad to see you back on the IG boards and hope to see an IG batrep soon.

 Trickstick wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
but your preists are LD 10 in effect, as I believe the hymm rule just calls for a standard LD test (which can be on the highest LD in the unit) as it is not called out like psychic powers are as being the casters specific LD.

The rule states that the Priest can take a leadership test, not the unit. You only use the highest value when it is the unit that is taking the test.

Reread the rulebook however. AM Priest warhyms entry is written poorly like everything which is why it gets confused often but you can use the highest LD in the unit for any LD checks with the exception being psychic tests. Strict RAW a priest checks on a 10 if an Inquisitor is in the unit. It doesn't matter that it says he must make a check, he can still use the Inq LD.

I've been thinking large blobs, and well, 50 guys is awesome, but really a pain to move. Why not multiple more modest sized blobs? Say maybe one 30 man blob and a 20 man squad or two? Pepper in some special/heavy weapons for utility and whatnot, and who cares if one squad get wiped out, when there maybe two to three more of similarly sized squads advancing.

I think there may be a utility in movement trays, and I'm not really joking. Make 5 man lines so you can still shift the shape of the unit for terrain or other needs. Just take them off the trays when you assault. Magnetize them and store the models in the trays. Makes deployment and movement quick and easy for a slight loss of efficiency but great gain in speed and enjoyment.

You guys know there are things called movement trays right? Makes moving 200 IG a breeze...

Seriously I've been playing blob guard for years. It's really not a big deal. What is a big deal is rolling 150 die....

Pro tip, color coded die per squad subtract die as guys die.

 Iechine wrote:
Imperial Guard is an army that I have only played against once and never in a competitive setting. With this new codex, what are their strengths/weakness vs Tyranids, particularly FMC's and MC's.

it depends on what build you run.

let's say you run no tanks. you are going to be able to do fairly well against nids. that would be because you are putting a lot of shots in the air from heavy weapons squads, you've got some plasma guns running around in chimeras, and you're using psykers to prescience the heavy weapons squads.

however, let's say you run a lot of tanks. from my experience the nids players are going to salivate. take the monstrous creatures and assault the tanks asap. if the tanks are in squadrons, you'll have an easier time. i hate it when i have a good gun line going and i face MCs. they pop the tanks very easily and take advantage of the squadron rules to explode multiple tanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mavnas wrote:
Does, PotMS give you the ability to shoot at what pops out of a transport you shot with your other guns? If yes, I can see giving Pask a couple melta sponsons and a las cannon with a tech priest in tow.

unfortunately, they specifically mention that you cannot do that in the codex.

screaming flayers wrote:

 Iechine wrote:

Mavnas wrote:
Does, PotMS give you the ability to shoot at what pops out of a transport you shot with your other guns? If yes, I can see giving Pask a couple melta sponsons and a las cannon with a tech priest in tow.

unfortunately, they specifically mention that you cannot do that in the codex.

They forbid you from using the order that lets the squad fire at different targets be used in that way, but that doesn't prevent Pask from shooting both himself if PotMS would allow it.