Pretty much that. I mean I think it's a possible worthwhile investment if you have the points.

The thing is, as Camo+Carapace is cheaper now than just one or the other was before, those of us running Grenadiers before and not wanting to change the list too much can basically add Camo Cloaks 'for free' and still save a few points.

I might try an all-camo+carapace list at some point and see how it works out.

What does having both do for us that having just one doesn't? Are we assuming that our vets are in cover and being shot at with a combination of regular and ignores cover weapons?

With the amount of Ap5 ignore cover that tau can put out. Having that 4+ is crucial. Same with eldar having Ap-ignore cover. and IG having AP-ignore cover. Or if your vehicle explodes

It gives you a really good save most of the time and a better save the rest of the time.

Would I do it for 6 squads? Nope, at that point you should just be buying more cheap troopers.

It means that you can play defensive, but aren't hopelessly slaughtered as soon as you break cover, which you will have to do.

It also gives you a better save at going to ground against those nasty AP4s. I mean a vet squad behind a Aegis and going to ground is a 2+ I think.

That's pretty good.

It also has the get back in there or whatever the order is that rallies you and sort of negates going to ground I think.

Hollismason wrote:
It also gives you a better save at going to ground against those nasty AP4s. I mean a vet squad behind a Aegis and going to ground is a 2+ I think.

That's pretty good.

It also has the get back in there or whatever the order is that rallies you and sort of negates going to ground I think.

Going to ground behind the ADL already gets you to 2+.

Carapace is amazing right now, my vets are doing stunning facing the 'nids. I've played 2 games, one i was 850 and my opponent 1500, the second game i had today was both roughly 1000 and i beat him twice. Both times the Vets performed well in close combat when Gaunts attacked positions while in cover. The Scions (who gaunts ghosts have made a brilliant command squad for) did well deepstriking behind enemy lines with. Even the mortar team wiped about a unit in the first game.

The real star are the SWT of snipers which although may not kill the warlord every time do inflict hard wounds and force the hand of my player to reconsider priming it for close combat.

On the other hand my center piece Valkyrie's have not been so useful, usually missing large blat shots or having trouble steering onto the board strangely. Although this i'm more putting down to bad rolling rather than a nerf.

Finally i see no reason to get a leman russ or Hydra, my ADL and Basilisk are pounding the enemy into the floor before they arrive at my board edge anyway.

My wish list is now;

Regimental advisers (to help my scions/planes to get on, along with a free pie plate.),

Another Chimera (these have been really nasty suppressing the enemy.),

Vendetta(just for lascannons)

Maybe another basilisk,

Creed.

tau tse tung wrote:Finally i see no reason to get a leman russ or Hydra, my ADL and Basilisk are pounding the enemy into the floor before they arrive at my board edge anyway.

Just wait until you come across some fliers, monstrous creatures, terminators, or heavy vehicles, or your opponents learn how to use ruins cover or displace.

Best 500 point ally for Imperial guard??

Space Marine Commander w/ Bike

Bike Squad w/ Grav Guns

Yes or no?

Hollismason wrote:
Best 500 point ally for Imperial guard??

Space Marine Commander w/ Bike

Bike Squad w/ Grav Guns

Yes or no?

I've been thinking of doing this

Captain w/ Bike, Power Axe, Shield Eternal
x5 Bikes w/ x2 Grav Gun, Multi-Melta
x4 Bikes w/ x2 Grav Gun

It comes out to 500 points exactly, and I think it would go well with my mech Guard

I got a 378 pts ally force consisting of;

Captain with AA, Storm botler, Relic Blade
5 scouts with bolters, heavy bolter+ hellfire shells, melta bomb
5 scouts with sniper rifles, camo-cloaks, Tellion.
LSS for the botler scouts

Outflank the bolter scouts on the LSS with the sniper starting on the board. As I also use scout sentinels, it can hold up a little more a flank and provide a more lasting diversion, not to mention hold onto an objective.

I also got a Sgt and an officer with bolt pistols for fill in those 2 loose points to round up the points.

I like

Beatstick Chapter Master
5 man bike squad
5 man bike squad

I'm going to figure out how to include a Hellhound, Manticore, my Griffins and mortar teams in a list.

I can't wait until I can afford the codex.

So many toys, so much fun.

Twin linking a Basilisk. 4++ to a 3pt/model blob squad.. & re-roll said save in Close Combat! Give BS4 overwatch to some cultists. The Wyvern. The Hydra (because its still worth it). Hellhounds, Chimeras, orders.

AM is the new black.

Razerous wrote:
So many toys, so much fun.

Twin linking a Basilisk. 4++ to a 3pt/model blob squad.. & re-roll said save in Close Combat! Give BS4 overwatch to some cultists. The Wyvern. The Hydra (because its still worth it). Hellhounds, Chimeras, orders.

AM is the new black.

So we can put you on the undecided/on the fence category? !

If only that rerollable 4++ had a better than half chance of working on any given turn, I might almost get excited about it.

What kind of leadership 9 or 10 tests are you rolling?

I'm rather conflicted about the lowered cost on 4+ armor.

I'm not sold on using it as a solution for ignore cover weapons because of who the top 3 threats are.

Tau with tons of Ap4 MP
Eldar with ap- serp shields
IG with ap-flashlights and ap2 plasma

None of those threats crank out lots of ignore cover ap5 dakka. Tau and Eldar can crank out a lot of ap5, but their ap5 isn't their ignore cover shots.

I am sold on 4+ saves helping with squads in the open since there are a lot of ap5 small arms in the game, but not every squad needs it. Not every squad can stay in cover so it's really for the squads that are going to have a high likelyhood of having to brave open ground.

Leth wrote:What kind of leadership 9 or 10 tests are you rolling?

The psyker needs to roll forewarning in the first place

Then the psyker needs to pass a leadership test to pass out the 4++.

Then the priest needs to pass out a leadership test to make it rerollable.

That's pretty crappy odds of working correctly in any given phase, and even then, it only works in close combat.

schadenfreude wrote:Tau with tons of Ap4 MP
Eldar with ap- serp shields
IG with ap-flashlights and ap2 plasma

Tau also have a lot of Ap5 pulse weapons as well.

And for SM, DA, BA, GK, SW, CSM, Eldar, DE, SoB, and Tau all have basic troops choices with Ap5 weapons, and odds are you'll see at least one of those armies occasionally. And that's to say nothing for the grab bag of non-small-arms that are also Ap5 like flamers, big shootas, etc.

And last I checked, Sv4+ made you less likely to be killed by Ap- weapons as well.

Yeah, carapace won't make you better against meltaguns, but then congratulations, your opponent is shooting slightly expensive guardsmen with meltaguns. The only time when carapace is seriously unuseful is against those weapons which are both Ap4 (or better) and ignores cover. They're out there, of course, but having a hard counter doesn't make it useless in every other case that isn't the hard counter.

 Ailaros wrote:

Leth wrote:What kind of leadership 9 or 10 tests are you rolling?

The psyker needs to roll forewarning in the first place

Then the psyker needs to pass a leadership test to pass out the 4++.

Then the priest needs to pass out a leadership test to make it rerollable.

That's pretty crappy odds of working correctly in any given phase, and even then, it only works in close combat.

schadenfreude wrote:Tau with tons of Ap4 MP
Eldar with ap- serp shields
IG with ap-flashlights and ap2 plasma

Tau also have a lot of Ap5 pulse weapons as well.

And for SM, DA, BA, GK, SW, CSM, Eldar, DE, SoB, and Tau all have basic troops choices with Ap5 weapons, and odds are you'll see at least one of those armies occasionally. And that's to say nothing for the grab bag of non-small-arms that are also Ap5 like flamers, big shootas, etc.

And last I checked, Sv4+ made you less likely to be killed by Ap- weapons as well.

Yeah, carapace won't make you better against meltaguns, but then congratulations, your opponent is shooting slightly expensive guardsmen with meltaguns. The only time when carapace is seriously unuseful is against those weapons which are both Ap4 (or better) and ignores cover. They're out there, of course, but having a hard counter doesn't make it useless in every other case that isn't the hard counter.

Necrons and Tyranids also mostly use AP5 or Worse on their most commonly seen models.

Orks do get quite a bit of Ap4 from Lootas, but they have practically no ignores cover at all, so feel free to bunker down with camocloaks.

Going from 5+ to 4+ means 33% more survivability. Now obviously if your squad is taking more than enough firepower to kill it, that won't matter.

Oh, also, to reiterate, the #1 killer of my veterans has always been caused by the explosion of their transport. When my vets bail out of the wreckage of their chimera with half their number, and no abblative wounds, that really stinks.

 Kain wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

Leth wrote:What kind of leadership 9 or 10 tests are you rolling?

The psyker needs to roll forewarning in the first place

Then the psyker needs to pass a leadership test to pass out the 4++.

Then the priest needs to pass out a leadership test to make it rerollable.

That's pretty crappy odds of working correctly in any given phase, and even then, it only works in close combat.

schadenfreude wrote:Tau with tons of Ap4 MP
Eldar with ap- serp shields
IG with ap-flashlights and ap2 plasma

Tau also have a lot of Ap5 pulse weapons as well.

And for SM, DA, BA, GK, SW, CSM, Eldar, DE, SoB, and Tau all have basic troops choices with Ap5 weapons, and odds are you'll see at least one of those armies occasionally. And that's to say nothing for the grab bag of non-small-arms that are also Ap5 like flamers, big shootas, etc.

And last I checked, Sv4+ made you less likely to be killed by Ap- weapons as well.

Yeah, carapace won't make you better against meltaguns, but then congratulations, your opponent is shooting slightly expensive guardsmen with meltaguns. The only time when carapace is seriously unuseful is against those weapons which are both Ap4 (or better) and ignores cover. They're out there, of course, but having a hard counter doesn't make it useless in every other case that isn't the hard counter.

Necrons and Tyranids also mostly use AP5 or Worse on their most commonly seen models.

Orks do get quite a bit of Ap4 from Lootas, but they have practically no ignores cover at all, so feel free to bunker down with camocloaks.

The huge # of ap5 shots are not ignore cover.

My point is the meta will usually throw

ap5 firepower that can be saved with cover (the huge list)

Tau ap4 ignore cover (4+ moot)

wave serp ap- ignore cover (5+ still works)

IG ignore cover (ap- flashlights, heavy/special weps)

Final verdict was 4+ armor is only really good for having a 4+ armor ie upgrading a 5+ cover/armor to a 4+ and will rarely be used to upgrade a completely negated save to a 4+. The decision to buy it should be based on if you feel that's worth 1.5 points. IMO that's a big maybe depends on what you're planing to do with the squad, but not needed on 100% of your troops.

Just to add to your list:

-Tau SMS are AP5, ignore cover, ignore LoS weapons that can be spread throughout the army. The mainline S7 AP4 cover ignoring weapons are usually clumped up in 1 or 2 groups, and they're going after tanks.

This doesn't really negate your point (which I think is sound), but it's something to think about with Tau. Additionally, though, I'd say you take carapace armor to get a save vs AP5 small arms when you're not in cover. That can be pretty huge on a unit moving for an objective. Carapace gives you a chance to spend a turn in the open to make an objective grab.

schadenfreude wrote:ap5 firepower that can be saved with cover (the huge list)

But Sv4+ isn't beholden to cover. They get a save without being forced to cower somewhere, or worse, being in 5+ cover and being forced to go to ground to get a 4+.

One might as well ask what's the point of Sv2+ when you can always get a 2+ cover save by going to ground behind an aegis? But we know that terminators are still useful for lots of reasons, regardless.

Sometimes better is just better.

schadenfreude wrote:wave serp ap- ignore cover (5+ still works)

Final verdict was 4+ armor is only really good for having a 4+ armor ie upgrading a 5+ cover/armor to a 4+ and will rarely be used to upgrade a completely negated save to a 4+.

Yes, a Sv5+ works on Ap-, but what also works against Ap-? Sv4+, and Sv4+ works even better than Sv5+.

And there's a pretty big pile of things that both get to make saves against where Sv4+ gets to make a better save. Everything from being caught in vehicle explosions, to being in close combat, to dangerous terrain checks, to going up against Ap6 or worse weapons.

And sometimes things do ignore cover, whether Ap5 barrage, or things like flamers. And sometimes you won't always get cover saves even when you would otherwise get cover, like drop pod showing up behind your aegis, or your opponent using the focus fire rule.

The conclusion you've come to is only a not non-sequitur in that tiny band of cases where you're just playing against missileside tau or always get to take cover saves against every attack that is made against you. If you can always engineer these circumstances, then yeah, carapace is going to be less useful. Once again, though, just because there are hard counters to something doesn't make that something worthless, as everything has hard counters to it.

More broadly, carapace can be useful, which means you're much more likely to get use out of it than to happen to be up against one of those hard counters.

Mechanized units usually suffer 1 of 3 fates when the transport goes.

#1 It assplodes which kills about half the squad and leaves the rest in a 5+ cover area terrain. Small arms can then tear the unit up and they will be forced to g2g. The unit would still suffer badlosses with a 4+, but would have a reasonable chance of keeping special weapons alive 1 more turn to get a shot off.

#2 It wrecks and the squad gets caught out in the open by small arms before they can get into cover. This is where caraprice will really shine.

#3 It wrecks but the wreck blocks los and the squad gets into cover. Camo cloaks is probably better in this situation, but this situation can never be counted on to happen.

Overall caraprice seems like a good idea for mech vets.

Backfield objective holders are another story. They don't have to leave cover, are a safer range for enemy flamers, and need to worry more about long range dakka. In this case 5 point models with a 5+ are going to be more durable than 7.5 point models with a 4+ making platoons or camo vets a better option.

I'm not dismissing a 4+, I am saying some IG players are going overboard with it.

@Ailaros- Terminators are useless. They are the worst example you could use IMO. Terminators get better the MORE expensive their opponent gets generally. They are also grossly over priced in this edition.

I think you make good points that a 4+ can be a huge boon though. The problem I have is foot vets aren't going to seize ground well anyway. Their just are not enough of them in a squad is the issue. Then you can only get so many squads (6 max) If you could field platoons of vets that would be one thing, you can't though. So a couple 4+ stealth units aren't going to do much except add up in points. Buy them a transport and now your wasting the cloaks for the most part. I think if you want to go for linebreaker and backfield disruption you had better take Scions, they are fairly priced and come in platoons this edition.

For SM allies I think you should take as much advantage of their CT as possible. Take a CM or captain and then a techmarine and forget the priests in your blobs. Now pick WS to hit and run with your blobs or RG to scout or outflank blobs.

 Red Corsair wrote:
@Ailaros- Terminators are useless. They are the worst example you could use IMO. Terminators get better the MORE expensive their opponent gets generally. They are also grossly over priced in this edition.

 daedalus wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
@Ailaros- Terminators are useless. They are the worst example you could use IMO. Terminators get better the MORE expensive their opponent gets generally. They are also grossly over priced in this edition.

Whats the confusion?

 daedalus wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
@Ailaros- Terminators are useless. They are the worst example you could use IMO. Terminators get better the MORE expensive their opponent gets generally. They are also grossly over priced in this edition.

Are you doubtful about terminators being borderline useless? Or confused by the proposition that they are better against more expensive units?

If it's the first thing...well, that should be self-evident at this point.

If it's the second...Think about it this way: A unit of terminators charge a 10 man guard infantry squad and slaughter them; they killed maybe 60-70 points worth of dudes. OR Those same terminators charge a tac marines squad and slaughter ~170 points worth of dudes. In which situation where those terminators better?

I'm confused over the initial premise. I just can't say I've ever seen a situation where Terminators were useless. You don't take nothing but terminators and expect to win, obviously, but I think that calling them useless has got to be some excessive exaggeration.

The problem is that for terminators everything you pay for is easily negated in the current environment.

With ignore cover Tau shooting AP 2 large blasts on interceptor you cant really deep strike them in a tournament setting. As such you need to either walk them across the board against said guns, meaning they are not doing anything for a few turns or buy them an expensive vehicle. At this point you are 400-500 points in just to make them work. And then you can get other things that do it better for cheaper.

So instead of "Useless" these people really mean very sub optimal

Now that sounds closer to reality.

As far as the competitive scene, I've decided I'm done with it until such a time that a 5 model 1000 point unit teamed up with a superheavy that somehow got legal for play isn't shooting entire armies off of tables.

I enjoy wargames. I'm not sure what competitive play is, but it's not one of those anymore.

Oh yea, sorry. I should have said sub optimal but I am a bit of a cynic in that department as I have a 2500pt logan wing army collecting dust currently. They are useful for looking at but not much else, and those are scoring terminators that start at 33 pt rather then 40 and can field combi weapons....yup still terrible.

The problem is how many points your spending per wound which is why I don't like vets being overly cost. I like the carapace but I am not a fan of camo gear. If they still had infiltrate it would be another story, but the problem is you need to get them to cover. Home field doesn't count really because then why not just camp with a platoon? So they gain nothing while they ride or walk to their goal really.

Now carapace is almost an auto buy. A vet squad used to be 70 naked now its 75 with a 4+ at the loss of something they almost never got to use, Krak grenades.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Oh yea, sorry. I should have said sub optimal but I am a bit of a cynic in that department as I have a 2500pt logan wing army collecting dust currently. They are useful for looking at but not much else, and those are scoring terminators that start at 33 pt rather then 40 and can field combi weapons....yup still terrible.

The problem is how many points your spending per wound which is why I don't like vets being overly cost. I like the carapace but I am not a fan of camo gear. If they still had infiltrate it would be another story, but the problem is you need to get them to cover. Home field doesn't count really because then why not just camp with a platoon? So they gain nothing while they ride or walk to their goal really.

Now carapace is almost an auto buy. A vet squad used to be 70 naked now its 75 with a 4+ at the loss of something they almost never got to use, Krak grenades.

Fair enough. The only termies I ever field are either Deathwing, or GK, and then those are used sparingly, so I'm a little biased in that I at least have scoring ones, but I could see where they become diminishing returns otherwise.

And in any case, it doesn't relate to the point. Sv2+ is still better than Sv3+ a vast majority of the time.

 Ailaros wrote:
And in any case, it doesn't relate to the point. Sv2+ is still better than Sv3+ a vast majority of the time.

In the abstract, yes. In actual fact, the points GW charges for 3+ or 2+ saves are frequently not worth it even a little.

That makes no sense. The only time when Sv2+ isn't just straight better is against AP1 and 2 weapons. Take any codex, and tell me what the ratio of Ap2 to Ap3+ weapons is. Then look at the carriers (I'm going to have a lot more lasguns than plasma guns in my guard army, I can tell you that for sure). Then look at non-shooting ways of doing damage.

Once again, you're looking at a tiny, tiny slice of hard counters and then extrapolating that they're useless. EVERYTHING looks useless when only compared to their hard counters. Of course Sv2+ is going to look expensive if you just shout "meta" and mean that to mean only things that support your point of view.

No, I'm saying that instead of paying 200+ points for 5 terminators, I'd prefer to buy double the number of power armor marines (and end up with points left over). Even if I was only ever facing lasguns or wyverns or autocannons, with a hard guarantee that there would be no plasma or lascannons or whatever, I would prefer power armor marines, because terminators are not good.

Anyway, I'm sorry. This is off topic for an IG thread.

The price for vets to get the grenadiers doctrine is well worth the points, which I think we all agree on.

tomjoad wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
And in any case, it doesn't relate to the point. Sv2+ is still better than Sv3+ a vast majority of the time.

In the abstract, yes. In actual fact, the points GW charges for 3+ or 2+ saves are frequently not worth it even a little.

Exactly, terminators are way over priced.

Ailaros wrote:That makes no sense. The only time when Sv2+ isn't just straight better is against AP1 and 2 weapons. Take any codex, and tell me what the ratio of Ap2 to Ap3+ weapons is. Then look at the carriers (I'm going to have a lot more lasguns than plasma guns in my guard army, I can tell you that for sure). Then look at non-shooting ways of doing damage.

Once again, you're looking at a tiny, tiny slice of hard counters and then extrapolating that they're useless. EVERYTHING looks useless when only compared to their hard counters. Of course Sv2+ is going to look expensive if you just shout "meta" and mean that to mean only things that support your point of view.

This is ridiculous. It all boils down to resiliency per point. a 2+ save is 16% better then a 3+ yet terminators are 300% the price of marines. Sure lets look at small arms shall we. A single bolter wound has a 16% chance to kill a single terminator or a 0% chance to kill the same points in marines (33% chance to off 1 of 3 wounds). This is why terminators suck. With fewer models you pay much more for hitting the bell curve for your armor saves. We don't even need to look at low AP weapons which ironically the most popular currently, 2, is more damaging to 2+ saves.

Back OT
Has anyone tried deep striking a platoon of SW scions yet? I am curious to hear of it's effectiveness.

Actually I'd be interested to hear about scions. I've always wanted to build an inquisitorial force and one of those aspects would be building Inquisitorial Storm Troopers which would be taken to represent a support branch to IG forces that are being besieged. Will they work or is it more worth just keeping a set of small units?

 Red Corsair wrote:
a 2+ save is 16% better then a 3+...

Isn't it 100% better, as you will take half the number of wounds (ignoring AP weapons)?

tomjoad wrote:No, I'm saying that instead of paying 200+ points for 5 terminators, I'd prefer to buy double the number of power armor marines (and end up with points left over).

And you lose powerfists, deepstrike, and an invul save.

Which should also enter into calculations. A +1 to Sv helps terminators over tac marines because there's more to protect. Likewise, veterans can have over half the models in the squad upgraded with a Ap2 or better weapon. Wounds are scarcer with vets, and the bodies need to be preserved more.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
a 2+ save is 16% better then a 3+...

Isn't it 100% better, as you will take half the number of wounds (ignoring AP weapons)?

Yes. The percentage of the change in number isn't what's important, it's the number of wounds that goes unsaved.

Which is one part of why terminator armor is so pricey, among many other reasons.

 Red Corsair wrote:

tomjoad wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
And in any case, it doesn't relate to the point. Sv2+ is still better than Sv3+ a vast majority of the time.

In the abstract, yes. In actual fact, the points GW charges for 3+ or 2+ saves are frequently not worth it even a little.

Exactly, terminators are way over priced.

Ailaros wrote:That makes no sense. The only time when Sv2+ isn't just straight better is against AP1 and 2 weapons. Take any codex, and tell me what the ratio of Ap2 to Ap3+ weapons is. Then look at the carriers (I'm going to have a lot more lasguns than plasma guns in my guard army, I can tell you that for sure). Then look at non-shooting ways of doing damage.

Once again, you're looking at a tiny, tiny slice of hard counters and then extrapolating that they're useless. EVERYTHING looks useless when only compared to their hard counters. Of course Sv2+ is going to look expensive if you just shout "meta" and mean that to mean only things that support your point of view.

This is ridiculous. It all boils down to resiliency per point. a 2+ save is 16% better then a 3+ yet terminators are 300% the price of marines. Sure lets look at small arms shall we. A single bolter wound has a 16% chance to kill a single terminator or a 0% chance to kill the same points in marines (33% chance to off 1 of 3 wounds). This is why terminators suck. With fewer models you pay much more for hitting the bell curve for your armor saves. We don't even need to look at low AP weapons which ironically the most popular currently, 2, is more damaging to 2+ saves.

Back OT
Has anyone tried deep striking a platoon of SW scions yet? I am curious to hear of it's effectiveness.

Um, what?

A single Lasgun wound has a 66% chance to kill a Veteran but a 0% chance to kill that many points in Guardsmen! Aiiiie! Vets must suck.

Now I'd repeat this ad infinitum just to point out how lacking in credit that statement is but I am in fact typing on a phone. As Ailaros points out, context and looking at the wider strengths is everything.

Terminators aren't fantastic for most armies but they're not useless, some variants of them especially are quite reasonable.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

tomjoad wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
And in any case, it doesn't relate to the point. Sv2+ is still better than Sv3+ a vast majority of the time.

In the abstract, yes. In actual fact, the points GW charges for 3+ or 2+ saves are frequently not worth it even a little.

Exactly, terminators are way over priced.

Ailaros wrote:That makes no sense. The only time when Sv2+ isn't just straight better is against AP1 and 2 weapons. Take any codex, and tell me what the ratio of Ap2 to Ap3+ weapons is. Then look at the carriers (I'm going to have a lot more lasguns than plasma guns in my guard army, I can tell you that for sure). Then look at non-shooting ways of doing damage.

Once again, you're looking at a tiny, tiny slice of hard counters and then extrapolating that they're useless. EVERYTHING looks useless when only compared to their hard counters. Of course Sv2+ is going to look expensive if you just shout "meta" and mean that to mean only things that support your point of view.

This is ridiculous. It all boils down to resiliency per point. a 2+ save is 16% better then a 3+ yet terminators are 300% the price of marines. Sure lets look at small arms shall we. A single bolter wound has a 16% chance to kill a single terminator or a 0% chance to kill the same points in marines (33% chance to off 1 of 3 wounds). This is why terminators suck. With fewer models you pay much more for hitting the bell curve for your armor saves. We don't even need to look at low AP weapons which ironically the most popular currently, 2, is more damaging to 2+ saves.

Back OT
Has anyone tried deep striking a platoon of SW scions yet? I am curious to hear of it's effectiveness.

Um, what?

A single Lasgun wound has a 66% chance to kill a Veteran but a 0% chance to kill that many points in Guardsmen! Aiiiie! Vets must suck.

Now I'd repeat this ad infinitum just to point out how lacking in credit that statement is but I am in fact typing on a phone. As Ailaros points out, context and looking at the wider strengths is everything.

Terminators aren't fantastic for most armies but they're not useless, some variants of them especially are quite reasonable.

A single Lascannon has a higher-than-zero percent chance of killing a Leman Russ, and a 0% chance of killing the equivalent points in guardsmen.

Therefore, guardsmen > Leman Russ.

derp

MEQ are far superior to TEQ when it comes to durability per point when being shot at.

TEQ are far superor in CC which isn't happening much in 6e. If 7e goes back to 5e assault out of transports rules then we will see teq return to the meta.

we should get back on topic.

 schadenfreude wrote:
MEQ are far superior to TEQ when it comes to durability per point when being shot at.

TEQ are far superor in CC which isn't happening much in 6e. If 7e goes back to 5e assault out of transports rules then we will see teq return to the meta.

we should get back on topic.

The only transport that Terminators can ride in can already be assaulted out of...

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
MEQ are far superior to TEQ when it comes to durability per point when being shot at.

TEQ are far superor in CC which isn't happening much in 6e. If 7e goes back to 5e assault out of transports rules then we will see teq return to the meta.

we should get back on topic.

The only transport that Terminators can ride in can already be assaulted out of...

If Eldar and MEQ can assault out of rhinos and wave serpents then the meta goes cc crazy. Once the meta goes cc crazy the ability to ignore ap3 ap4 power weapons matters again. Now wer're double off topic with 7e speculation.

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm having a lot of trouble fitting in all the Troops I want, plus having points left over for support. I don't know if it's a effect of New Codex Syndrome making my want to try new things, or there's something else going on. Mathematically, there's no reason I shouldn't be able to make my exact army list I used to run, but with some Priests using the points saved on Leman Russ tanks. I think I'm just indecisive.

Just build a hierarchy and then go from there.

Problem is that I am guessing you are trying to fit too many combos into the same list. Which is really easy to do. I have yet to find myself keeping special weapons in a squad.

Biophysical wrote:
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm having a lot of trouble fitting in all the Troops I want, plus having points left over for support. I don't know if it's a effect of New Codex Syndrome making my want to try new things, or there's something else going on. Mathematically, there's no reason I shouldn't be able to make my exact army list I used to run, but with some Priests using the points saved on Leman Russ tanks. I think I'm just indecisive.

That's the issue I've been having. The biggest problem is that there's new stuff you "need", but nothing really got cheaper to be able to take it.

The game I played on Monday I could barely fit in 5 chimeras at 1750. I was using only the cheapest russes too. Between the vendetta's massive point hike, mech infantry getting more expensive, and nothing really getting cheaper than upgrades (which are really easier to justify taking than before, so more points), it's hard to feel like you have as much on the table as you did before. Unless someone comes up some obnoxious killer combo, I think guard will be firmly a "mid-tier" army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Leth wrote:

Problem is that I am guessing you are trying to fit too many combos into the same list. Which is really easy to do. I have yet to find myself keeping special weapons in a squad.

You mean to say you're not running special weapons? I don't understand.

Yep, but the things that were optimal before are not as optimal now, so it doesnt make sense to run them. If you are still running more than 2 vendettas it is probably not as optimal, without buying krak grenades the veterans in chimera only went up 5 points. Personally I think the carapace upgrade is worth it for 15 points so 20 more.

I dont run special weapons because I am finding it better to spend those points else where. I will take a wyvern anyday over 4 plasma guns. One concept I want to test is running units with only a lascannon or Autocannon. In my armies I need more bodies on the table to protect my other assets than I do needing an extra heavy or special weapon.

Why dont you throw up your list as a tactica exercise more so than a critique

 Leth wrote:

Why dont you throw up your list as a tactica exercise more so than a critique

Sure. Still have it in Evernote even.



Went up against a drop pod SW army that had a Whirlwind. Kill points, Dawn of War. He must have heard my roommate talking about how good the DP/DW combo was for him, because he reinvented the wheel on that one. Psykers went one in each IS chimera, and then one in the blob. Blob held down the Aegis with the PCS on the quadgun for the BS4 from the commander on the shots. Chimeras rolled forward to get the infantry in range with everything else shooting around it. The vendetta managed to miss its target the first two times I shot it (pretty bad luck on the die rolls). I'll spare you the full batrep, but I actually held my own pretty solidly until the bottom of the 5th, when he wound up taking 3 more kill points than me. I might have been able to make up to two KP back, but I was poised to lose at least another one or two, and it was getting late in the right, so we called it then and there.

Looking at the list, the camo cloaks and carapace armor on the vets/CCS were expensive, but worth it I think. I made use of the camo cloaks twice on the CCS, and they saved their lives each time. The carapace armor I rolled for frequently, and I think it's an autoinclude now, especially since it got so cheap.

Astropath managed to take out a Lone Wolf that was wrecking my tanks. I was kind of impressed, though I don't know if he's worth his points in a unit already so killy. Priest sat in the blob for a fearless unit. The original idea with that was to make an amazing objective holder. Armored sentinels are nice now for how cheap they are. I feel like the PP/PG idea for IS Chimera squads is too expensive to really be effective, even with some prescience loving. I mean, if you could somehow get them close enough to repeatedly use the guns, it would be more worth it, but as it stands, I think I got maybe one use out of each one. I'd rather have had another squad at that point. I'm actually thinking about only taking 2 special weapons on my Vets now that the Chimera fire points are different.

Your thoughts?

So i have a crazy idea I want to explore. I have now some unused bullgryns and roughriders. I want to make a list using bullgryns/cypher/psychic/priest in one infiltarting squad, deathriders following behind a DKoK Chim w/ dozers in the anoither squad and fill in the blanks from there. I guess it would be AM main and DKoK allies.

Company Commander with T.A.R.T.

Still makes me chuckle...

I'm not sure infiltrate is bestowed upon units that way.

It is allowed in many tournaments - we won't argue it but assume it is

 daedalus wrote:

 Leth wrote:

Why dont you throw up your list as a tactica exercise more so than a critique

Sure. Still have it in Evernote even.

[spoiler]
CCS
- Tactical Autoreliquary of Tyberius
- Carapace armor
- Plasmagun x 3
- Medipack
- Camo Cloaks
- Astropath
- Chimera
- Searchlight

Why do you have three plasma guns in this unit as well as the astropath? While in a chimera you can only fire two things from the hatch

Primaris Psyker x 3

Priest x 1

Platoon Command Squad
- Autocannon
Infantry Squad
- Autocannon
Infantry Squad
- Autocannon

Infantry Squad
- Plasmagun
- Plasma Pistol
- Chimera
- Searchlight
Infantry Squad
- Plasmagun
- Plasma Pistol
- Chimera
- Searchlight

Why are you taking plasma pistols? They are way overpriced for what they do? Would it make more sense to take veterans in a chimera for 10 extra points with the option of carapace?

SWS
- Sniper Rifle x 3

I would be careful with these, they are not really going to do much and are a easy first blood against armies like tau with SMS, or anyone with barrage

Veteran Squad
- Metagun x 3
- Grenadiers
- Camo Cloaks
- Chimera
- Searchlight
I think in general you are gonna want grenadiers more than camo cloaks, especially in a chimera, both is kinda meh

Armored Sentinel
- Plasma Cannon

Armored Sentinel
- Plasma Cannon

Vendetta

Leman Russ Punisher
- Heavy Bolters

Leman Russ Eradicator

Why not take these two as a HQ choice with pask. A regular punisher just doesnt hold a candle to pask and he is worth every point. Especially if you can get prescience on him by throwing one of the primaris in the infantry blob
Aegis Defence Line with Quad-gun

I think that in this list you are getting into the classic trap of over spending on things. I can see an easy 100+ points that you can remove to get more points in. One of the big things with guard is that you are not durable in general, so the more points spend on things that easily die the worse. Spend points on the things that will live, keep the things that will die cheap.

I like it overall however and I think your strategy is sound. I dont see a good way for you to take out enemy heavy armor. You only have 3 melta guns and thats it for what can hurt AV 14.
Any thoughts?

I'm colorblind. For whatever reason, the red coloring against the quote box is actually painful on my eyes to read. I don't mind making the effort, I just like to point it out to spread awareness though.

Why do you have three plasma guns in this unit as well as the astropath? While in a chimera you can only fire two things from the hatch

I'm expecting the chimera to blow up, honestly, or I'm expecting those guys to bail out and then wipe out a squad. In this case, I put them against the side of the board that had a wolf prist, four terminators, and two thunderwolf cavalry. Honestly, I figured the astropath would just suck and die. I was surprised this time. I may go buff heavy on the CCS and just have one plasma and astropath in the future.

Why are you taking plasma pistols? They are way overpriced for what they do? Would it make more sense to take veterans in a chimera for 10 extra points with the option of carapace?

I was trying a theory proposed earlier in this thread (I think by Ailaros). The short range doesn't make up for the lack of firepower. It was experimental and I came to the same conclusion you have.

I would be careful with these, they are not really going to do much and are a easy first blood against armies like tau with SMS, or anyone with barrage

Something else experimental. The argument was that they were the cheapest troop unit you could have next to allying in henchmen. A source of pinning and another unit to have to worry about shooting is nice too. They didn't do much, but for as cheap as they were (and making my points come out even with the searchlights) I figured it was worth it. I'm skeptical of them, but I think they warrant another shot. I might take two next time to see how it goes.

I think in general you are gonna want grenadiers more than camo cloaks, especially in a chimera, both is kinda meh.

I agree, it's just sooo cheap. I'll probably drop a melta next time. I may or may not keep the camo cloaks. I just keep picturing the chimera blowing up and wishing I had the bonus in the crater.

Why not take these two as a HQ choice with pask. A regular punisher just doesnt hold a candle to pask and he is worth every point. Especially if you can get prescience on him by throwing one of the primaris in the infantry blob

I did on the same set of tanks in the first game I played. It was nifty, and he's worth his points, but you need to be able to have the points to begin with. There were things I could have dropped to get them, but I wanted to see how they performed without Pask this time. Pask might be an include for the next one, but I think I'm going to try vanilla russes first.

I think that in this list you are getting into the classic trap of over spending on things. I can see an easy 100+ points that you can remove to get more points in. One of the big things with guard is that you are not durable in general, so the more points spend on things that easily die the worse. Spend points on the things that will live, keep the things that will die cheap.

I like it overall however and I think your strategy is sound. I dont see a good way for you to take out enemy heavy armor. You only have 3 melta guns and thats it for what can hurt AV 14.
Any thoughts?

AV14 isn't really in my meta, or the tournament meta from what I've seen. I'd run it in a heartbeat personally, but until I start seeing it, I'm not really worried about it. I sometimes bring a manticore also, but in this case, I figured between the vendetta and the meltas, if I saw it, I'd have at least SOMETHING to deal with it.

After playing my first game with the new Guard, I'm left seriously considering bringing only 2x plasma/melta on my vets, backed up by a heavy flamer. I can never shoot all three out the hatch at once, so the third weapon is only useful disembarked. However, the heavy flamer adds some genuine versatility when dismounted too; 2x specials and a heavy flamer is still pretty damn good compared to most troop choices in game. Its also nice versatility if you happen up against a horde army for shooting the heavy flamer out the hatch instead.

At 10pts, its a pretty good deal now. I know that in my last game I would have enjoyed the template weapon, seeing as I rarely got to shoot all three specials even after disembarking. Anyone have any experiences on the matter, or even general theory hammer? All of my theoretical lists/shopping list for my army are planned around 3x specials still, but I'm seriously considering doing up a bunch of heavy flamer dudes.

I can see dropping a plasma/melta in chimera vet squads. The 10-15 points you save can buy a LOT. But if you're going to cut one, I cannot imagine then replacing it with a heavy flamer. You still can't fire it while embarked, and it has grossly different ideal targets than plasma and melta once you get out, so the unit will be forced to fire sub-optimally. I say 2 or 3 specials makes sense for different reasons, but I would never mix them in a squad.

I think it wouldn't be a bad idea. (Best to play test it)

It at least makes for an ok assault deterrent as well as a back up anti infantry weapon.

 Blacksails wrote:
After playing my first game with the new Guard, I'm left seriously considering bringing only 2x plasma/melta on my vets, backed up by a heavy flamer. I can never shoot all three out the hatch at once, so the third weapon is only useful disembarked. However, the heavy flamer adds some genuine versatility when dismounted too; 2x specials and a heavy flamer is still pretty damn good compared to most troop choices in game. Its also nice versatility if you happen up against a horde army for shooting the heavy flamer out the hatch instead.

At 10pts, its a pretty good deal now. I know that in my last game I would have enjoyed the template weapon, seeing as I rarely got to shoot all three specials even after disembarking. Anyone have any experiences on the matter, or even general theory hammer? All of my theoretical lists/shopping list for my army are planned around 3x specials still, but I'm seriously considering doing up a bunch of heavy flamer dudes.

I would be very interested in reading about how they worked out if you did so.

 daedalus wrote:


I would be very interested in reading about how they worked out if you did so.

I would too!

Unfortunately, my entire IG collection has a new owner, and I likely won't play another game for another few months while I figure out my move to a new province.

Hence why I've come to you lovely lot to see if anyone has either tried it, or plans on trying it, and reporting back for further analysis.

Fair enough. I'll play counts-as with my regular flamers and report back after. I expect I'll get to play sometime next week, though I might lucky and get a game in this weekend.

I don't hate the idea of the HF as a third option. I think it matches up against a lot of targets just fine, any infantry, even heavy, is a good target for a heavy flamer. It's not good against MCs, but that can still be okay. If you view the vets as "short range firepower delivery" instead of MC/tank killers, then it's got a spot. If you only want your vets going after MCs/tanks, then you leave it at home.

I keep thinking about in on the CCS, certainly. You can take an Astropath, plasma gun, and heavy flamer, and have a pretty good spread of powerful, short ranged weapons for your CCS.

I would consider running two specials and a heavy flamer.

two specials allow you to use the two fire points and the heavy flamer can be used on overwatch if the vehicle gets assaulted.

Or if they dont want to get out and use the flamer to clear some area it offers a lot of versatility.

I did the 2 specials/ heavy flamer combo in my first game with the new Codex. I fired it as overwatch from a chimera hatch along with a Plasma Gun. It did 2 hits on a unit of plaguebearers who promptly failed their charge. It has it's uses I suppose.

konst80hummel wrote:
I did the 2 specials/ heavy flamer combo in my first game with the new Codex. I fired it as overwatch from a chimera hatch along with a Plasma Gun. It did 2 hits on a unit of plaguebearers who promptly failed their charge. It has it's uses I suppose.

You can overwatch the passengers of a transport vehicle as the vehicle is getting assaulted?

 tomjoad wrote:
I can see dropping a plasma/melta in chimera vet squads. The 10-15 points you save can buy a LOT. But if you're going to cut one, I cannot imagine then replacing it with a heavy flamer. You still can't fire it while embarked, and it has grossly different ideal targets than plasma and melta once you get out, so the unit will be forced to fire sub-optimally. I say 2 or 3 specials makes sense for different reasons, but I would never mix them in a squad.

If you put a hull heavy flamer on the chimera, that would give you two heavy flamers, a multilaser, and two meltas/ plasma. Two heavy flamers would be really handy for clearing an objective, and it can be useful in overwatch I guess.

I'd be more interested in sticking one in a PCS that's deepstriking in from a Valk/vendetta, but I could see it on a meltavet squad that's getting close in a chimera. Wish SWS's could get them. 50pts for a unit with 2 flamers and a heavy flamer would be neat.

Vehicles can not overwatch, only their passengers (limited by fire points).

 Blacksails wrote:
After playing my first game with the new Guard, I'm left seriously considering bringing only 2x plasma/melta on my vets, backed up by a heavy flamer. I can never shoot all three out the hatch at once, so the third weapon is only useful disembarked. However, the heavy flamer adds some genuine versatility when dismounted too; 2x specials and a heavy flamer is still pretty damn good compared to most troop choices in game. Its also nice versatility if you happen up against a horde army for shooting the heavy flamer out the hatch instead.

At 10pts, its a pretty good deal now. I know that in my last game I would have enjoyed the template weapon, seeing as I rarely got to shoot all three specials even after disembarking. Anyone have any experiences on the matter, or even general theory hammer? All of my theoretical lists/shopping list for my army are planned around 3x specials still, but I'm seriously considering doing up a bunch of heavy flamer dudes.

That's the same build I'm planning on using.

2 plasma, heavy flamer, with shotgun vets in a chimera. Can use the lasgun arrays while embarked and the plasma from the hatch. Disembark and lay down the law with shotguns and heavy flamer.

Hey guys, wanted to pose a question. Is the Aegis Defense Line still an auto-take if you have a platoon or two? My Guard is usually a little bit of Mech and a little bit of Platoon, but I always take the Aegis line to protect my command squad and my Platoon. Oftentimes I am playing at a local GW, so it has the standard fare for terrain, craters, mostly forests, and a few of those "L" shaped ruins with one or two stories, but thats really it. Is the Aegis still worth the 50 points?

I'd say that it isn't worth the 50 points, but that it is worth 100. I'm still including it in my lists because I like it for anti-air. Otherwise, I'd drop it for a Skyshield in a heartbeat.

I find the ADL very useful, simply as having good cover where you want it is far better than relying on the setup to do that for you.

The Quad-Gun is also nice to give a Commander/Commissar something to do with his better BS, and Forward Sentries+ADL gives you a 3+ cover save rather cheaply.

Not to mention that you can order the squad in the gun to ignore cover or have tank hunters.

I basically never use the ADL with my IG since I don't play defensively because I both hate the trend and because I don't rate it. IG at mid/long range mostly just have their pie plates and you've got a couple of iffy standard issue Imperial heavy weapons. Your Guardsmen aren't even paying to be meatshields fully because you have cover you can sit behind and the ADL. If your opponent isn't playing super aggressive at least some of your firepower is being wasted.

I don't usually spam my Heavy Supports to shoot (no pun intended) for overwhelming firepower, I have 2-3 Russes to work as a chisel against threats like infantry and MC's in support of my elements like Chimeras. I've heard some people put the Chimeras in front of the Russes, but I do the opposite, allowing the scoring units to not get molested by AT/Anti-Infantry in their transports full stop with LOS blockage.

I like to deploy the aegis between deployment and mid field and then advance into it for the first turn, gives me a solid foundation to fire from, more things are in range and I can safely bunker down.

Well, I guess you could deploy it on the center line, attach a scout to a blob to advance it 6" then first turn move up to the wall.

Not sure about how i feel about chimeras being bumped in price. although using a taurox instead gives me the excuse to convert haldtracks for my guard

So I just thought of a good combo, not sure if anyone posted this yet. If you are the kind of player to run 9-15 heavy weapons teams, take creed, take kell, take a regimental standard, and now your ignores cover orders are on Ld8 rerolabble, and you re roll morale checks. Maybe not tournement worthy, but a definite slightly trolltastic firepower combo.

Kell comes with a standard.

Consider how many points you've paid for Creed+Kell. Now consider how many commissars you can have for those points.

How are you going to fit 9-15 large bases in cover in a 12 inch bubble around Creed?

Yea Commisars are where its at. I am seriously looking at them for most of my needs instead of priests. Priests only help in CC really, with yarrick and commisars you get orders off more reliably, are not running from shooting anyway and can still go to ground.

 daedalus wrote:
Kell comes with a standard.

Consider how many points you've paid for Creed+Kell. Now consider how many commissars you can have for those points.

How are you going to fit 9-15 large bases in cover in a 12 inch bubble around Creed?

It's possible, you only need 1 base in range for the order anyway. True, but is anyone taking enough command squads to get 4 commissars? I guess a lord commy could help out with ld10 orders?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Leth wrote:
Yea Commisars are where its at. I am seriously looking at them for most of my needs instead of priests. Priests only help in CC really, with yarrick and commisars you get orders off more reliably, are not running from shooting anyway and can still go to ground.

G2G is huge in my meta. Haven't had a blob down past 20 men since my game with tau in march, and that's cause I didn't kill their marker lights.

The few times I've played in the past year has seen alot of g2g as well, hence my love of hellhounds. Only problem is getting them up field to get to work. I suspect once I finish moving I'll see if wyverns can take their place so I can start clearing cover guaranteed turn one instead of sometimes having to wait turn two on bigger tables.

I prefer to use commissars over priests from a thematic point of view, but they are much easier to kill. A couple of precision shots can kill a commissar, whereas a priest gets a better LoS! and invulnerable save.

 Trickstick wrote:
I prefer to use commissars over priests from a thematic point of view, but they are much easier to kill. A couple of precision shots can kill a commissar, whereas a priest gets a better LoS! and invulnerable save.

Comissar doesn't give up first blood so far as I can tell.

I'd run both personally - for 50 pts you get fearless and ld9 war hymns.

Both negates the point of the commissar. If you are really worried about precision shots I would just hide him outside of LOS so they cant be allocated to him anyway.

Yeah, if you're thinking both, you could just add an inquisitor with 0 upgrades. He's Ld10, and an IC for the better LOS!

In terms of tactics, from what I have fought I know that bringing Inquisition into play with AM is very powerful, just add Prescience to everything from inquisitors and psykers and cast onto barrage weapons and tanks as well as big blobs of infantry, this combined with orders is very powerful

Well that may change in a couple of weeks. I don't think Prescience is going to survive 7th edition so , yeah its gonna suck.

 Leth wrote:
Both negates the point of the commissar. If you are really worried about precision shots I would just hide him outside of LOS so they cant be allocated to him anyway.

Comissar is an easy challenge caddy because he's only one wound to throw away, and you're still fearless because priest.

Unit sergent is a better challenge caddy since when he dies nothing really happens.

I am not saying the priest is bad. I just feel that most of the time it is beneficial to be able to go to ground.

 Leth wrote:
Unit sergent is a better challenge caddy since when he dies nothing really happens.

I am not saying the priest is bad. I just feel that most of the time it is beneficial to be able to go to ground.

Because not everyone and their mum is packing ignores cover?

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Unit sergent is a better challenge caddy since when he dies nothing really happens.

I am not saying the priest is bad. I just feel that most of the time it is beneficial to be able to go to ground.

Because not everyone and their mum is packing ignores cover?

Not really its just 1-2 riptides or one of a wave serpents guns.

Most armies dont have that much.

I just played a game. PASK IS A MURDERER.

He wiped out a 7 man plague marine squad in one volley with a punisher cannon! Coupled with an executioner as a back up tank, thats a really powerful and tough warlord. Ignores cover on a vet squad with plasma and lascannon is really nice. Took out a squad of 3 nurgle flies in one volley. One vendetta drew just enough fire to be worth its points, but I think to be most competitive you have to be running at least ! vendetta and 1 barebones valk with a vet squad w/ 3 meltas inside.

Yeah I had a Pask Punisher take out an Exorcist tank (AV13) and that is with me forgetting I can re-roll armor pen. Putting my executioner in with pask saved 5 get's hots over the course of the game as well. Big investment for a chance of a big payoff.

I've had great luck with blobs and conscripts my last two games. I'm quite happy I tried it out as I hated having to use vets in chimeras. I don't think I'll go back to straken assaulty blobs but more defensive protecting my tanks.

Have we figured out how we're going to deal with Eldar yet?

Played last night. Dealing with as many wave serpents as I have chimeras is... unfun.

How many wave serpents is that?

In that case, it was 5.

Wave serpents can and should beat chimeras for the same number. They are at least twice as expensive. However IG have the Bane of Wave Serpents which is a Crap ton of autocannons that we can then give tank hunter.

Also things like the Leman Russ varients will destroy a Wave Serpent army. Remember when they fire their shields they can be penned reliably. If they are not firing their shields their offensive power is cut in more than half. Use that to your advantage. Even if you dont kill them you are forcing them to do nothing(since they cant hurt the russes.)

Pask in a vanquisher with a lascannon and a sidekick Vanqusher with a lascannon will mess up a wave serpent every turn and if their shield is down its probably gonna blow.

 Leth wrote:
Wave serpents can and should beat chimeras for the same number. They are at least twice as expensive. However IG have the Bane of Wave Serpents which is a Crap ton of autocannons that we can then give tank hunter.

That works in a vacuum. What you forget is that you're (in theory) buying them as an accessory to what is inside them, not the other way around. The chimera with meltavets and carapace armor costs almost as much as the wave serpent with 5 dire avengers. Unless you're going deliberately cheap with the contents of your Chimera, an Eldar player can spam almost as many Serpents as you have Chimeras, at least, as far as points is concerned.

Also, where are you getting these autocannons from? Not Hydras or foot guard I hope.

Also things like the Leman Russ varients will destroy a Wave Serpent army. Remember when they fire their shields they can be penned reliably. If they are not firing their shields their offensive power is cut in more than half. Use that to your advantage. Even if you dont kill them you are forcing them to do nothing(since they cant hurt the russes.)

Pask in a vanquisher with a lascannon and a sidekick Vanqusher with a lascannon will mess up a wave serpent every turn and if their shield is down its probably gonna blow.

This i can agree with. I brought a regular punisher and a eradicator last game and it wasn't enough, but there wasn't much they could do to them. I think i need a vanquisher too. Pask may join along as well.

Yes if you include the contents then they will be the same price, but a striaght wave serpent to Chimera fight a wave serpent is nearly twice the points, so should be much more effective.
However an infantry squad inside a chimera with autocannon and grenade launcher is about the same points as a wave serpent.

Also yes I was talking about heavy weapons in blob guard units behind an aegis. Backed up with things like vanquishers and other leman russ variants if he fires his shield o no 20 or so guardsman died. Now everything gets to fire and will get a significant number of hull points off even through cover saves. Most likely he will not risk firing is shields meaning you have won half the battle.

Add in a unit or two of scions with meltas to make sure he keeps those shields up and you will wipe him off the table while still having a decent all comers force.

Here is a quick 1850 I threw together as an example

Pask in Vanquisher Camo Netting with lascannon - Warlord
Vanquisher with Lascannon

Priest
3x Primaris, two level 2, one level 1

Tempestus Platoon
Cmd Squad with 4 melta
5 man squad with 2 melta

Infantry platoon 1
3x infantry squad Autocannon Grenade
cmd squad - Nothing

Infantry Platoon two
3x infantry squad Autocannon
cmd squad - Nothing

Twox executioner with plasma sponsons

2x wyvern

Aegis with quadgun.

Good anti elite/anti infantry coverage. Lots of divination and prescience coverage as well.

Edit: If you want to be SUPER dickish, take a skyshield instead of a aegis and throw the Leman Russes and wyverns up there. 4+ saves for EVERYONE

That's actually kind of interesting.

I assume you would deep strike the temptestus?

Yep, tempestus are there to be deep struck in and threaten whatever.

The cmd squad can throw an order on themselves such as monster/tank hunter or ignore cover if they are close enough. Thats a solid dead wave serpent right there even with shields up.

Naturally that is not the best list, I could probably finagle and move some points around to make it better but just an example that I think would do well against the current meta right now.

If you want to run INQ allies then drop two primaris psykers and the priest and bring in coteaz and a level one xenos with book, grenade and servo skull.

So you have two level twos and a level 1 and now both of your blobs are stubborn leadership 10.

This is what I came up with.


Mostly wanted an excuse to try out Straken. I don't think I like it though. Straken's squad might turn into a big plasma squad, the two hellhounds might turn into another tank, and then the Vanquisher gets bumped up to having Pask on board.

Another unit that is good against eldar tanks is the pask plasmacutioner due to it's reroll failed armour pen and the small blasts it will almost always strip ~2 HP and explodes the serpent almost 50% the time (that figure includes the 5+ jink).

I actually much prefer the lascannons in a blob with ignore cover and prescience to take down a serpent. They deal out (LC vs AC) 2.5 vs 2.7 HP but if the serpent shield is fired the lascannons also have a ~50% chance to explode the serpent. This gives my opponent the justification to not fire the shield...which is a mistake as he will reduce his offense output by 2/3 in most cases. If the opponent does fire the shield I have a better chance of taking out the tank in a single turn this way. Additionally if the opponent takes holo fields or has night fighting, ruins, etc. then I have a much better chance to kill it with ignore cover and lascannons than I would with the autocannons.

DS melta units are great for limiting serpents so they cannot shoot their shield for a turn and will regret moving forward. They are not an answer in themselves but they are a great piece in the puzzle. Another unit which can be brutal is a CCS suicide plasma squad dropping from a vendetta. Within 12" one of these is murder to AV12 and AV10 is a sure fire kill.

Finally if you planned to move forward anyways and you don't mind the limited range the pask punisher is of course excellent at killing anything. You can actually abuse the squadron rules by pointing a tank to front and the two sides each and using spacing so only AV14 can be hit.

Lascannons are better when their shield is down and with ignore cover. Autocannons are better when its up IMO and with tank hunter.

But we have a lot of tactical options right? That is one of the things I love about the guard book right now is that turn to turn you have a mix of options that changes up effectiveness

Yeah, so many options. I think we will see guard win a big name tournement soon enough. Any guesses on the list? I think big blobs and cheap Valkyries.

 Leth wrote:
Lascannons are better when their shield is down and with ignore cover. Autocannons are better when its up IMO and with tank hunter.

But we have a lot of tactical options right? That is one of the things I love about the guard book right now is that turn to turn you have a mix of options that changes up effectiveness

Definitely there are a wide variety of options in the new dex. I have been pretty happy with it because of this.

The thing about LC vs AC is that the only time that the AC is better is when the serpents have their shields up and a 5+ or worse cover save (AC 2.8 HP vs LC 2.5 HP) whereas when the shield is lowered and/or the cover is 4+ or better the LC is better (AC+tank hunter 2.1 HP, AC+ignore cover 2.5 HP vs LC 2.5 HP). There are of course other considerations so either option could be better depending on the list but against waveserpents, wraithknights, and even warp spiders (lol) which are the units to be feared in a serpent spam type list. (btw I would recommend a 5 IS w/ lascannons, inquisitor or primaris, and yarrick for this all behind an ADL w/ quadd gun or icarus, depending on the HWTs you chose)

A wave serpent is only a 25 points cheaper than a lascannon vanquisher.

I know which of the two will win that fight.

I also like autocannons because they double as decent anti flier in my list which is really helpful. Another reason is those lascannons add up pretty quick

Autocannons are no better than any other weapon against fliers. The reduction to snap shot sinks all boats equally. A lascannon is exactly the same amount better than the autocannon at BS 1 as it is at BS3.

One quad gun = 9 autocannons and even it is merely ok. I don't see the point of autocannons except maybe when you can guarantee tank hunter.

I like autocannons because A. they are significantly cheaper and B. They have more shots and a higher max threshold than lascannons as well as more shots will smooth out the probability curve.

Its sort of like the two-shot versus twin-linked arguement as it were.

A smoother curve? The transition from 1 to 2 doesn't bring you from the world of small numbers to the world of large numbers. They are cheaper? Sure, but it's scarcely noticeable once you include carrier costs. Higher max threshold? Sure, but why not ally marines to shoot bolters, then? After all, they could cause TWENTY vehicle explosion results on a single target in a single volley if the dice roll right.

And it's not like the difference between two shots and twin-linked. That's a completely different statistics problem. It would be like saying autocannons are better than lascannons because AV14 is much more reliable than AV12.

In any case, the arguments you just made should be proof in your eyes that the heavy bolter is superior to the autocannon.

 Leth wrote:
Yes if you include the contents then they will be the same price, but a striaght wave serpent to Chimera fight a wave serpent is nearly twice the points, so should be much more effective.
However an infantry squad inside a chimera with autocannon and grenade launcher is about the same points as a wave serpent.

Also yes I was talking about heavy weapons in blob guard units behind an aegis. Backed up with things like vanquishers and other leman russ variants if he fires his shield o no 20 or so guardsman died. Now everything gets to fire and will get a significant number of hull points off even through cover saves. Most likely he will not risk firing is shields meaning you have won half the battle.

Add in a unit or two of scions with meltas to make sure he keeps those shields up and you will wipe him off the table while still having a decent all comers force.

Here is a quick 1850 I threw together as an example

Pask in Vanquisher Camo Netting with lascannon - Warlord
Vanquisher with Lascannon

Priest
3x Primaris, two level 2, one level 1

Tempestus Platoon
Cmd Squad with 4 melta
5 man squad with 2 melta

Infantry platoon 1
3x infantry squad Autocannon Grenade
cmd squad - Nothing

Infantry Platoon two
3x infantry squad Autocannon
cmd squad - Nothing

Twox executioner with plasma sponsons

2x wyvern

Aegis with quadgun.

Good anti elite/anti infantry coverage. Lots of divination and prescience coverage as well.

Edit: If you want to be SUPER dickish, take a skyshield instead of a aegis and throw the Leman Russes and wyverns up there. 4+ saves for EVERYONE

I like this list, but I would change one thing in particular - you have no offensive scoring to take midfield/their backfield. Cypher, a 3 IS Platoon (+ PCS) and 3 meltaguns (one per IS) runs you 400 points, which I'd get by scrapping the Wyverns, the Scions and the level 2 upgrades on the Primaris Psykers.

Wyverns aren't that important honestly and having a 30 man super-blob running around in your enemy's lines is good anti-infantry, you've got still got melta and the only reason you take PP's is for prescience, the full BS overwatch power isn't always that useful, you already have ignores cover with orders and they should be in cover - if he's dumb enough to lower shields to kill Guardsmen meatshields, I'm happy.

Over 6-8 squads it adds up pretty quick. thats 12 shots instead of 6. over the course of the game and many others it should provide more reliable results. It also can hit twice compared to a lascannon only ever hitting once. My point with the twinlinking thing was saying that two shots is always better than one twin-linked shots, but I didnt elaborate because I was on my phone.

As to your point about heavy bolters in certain situations it is better, however the number of situations where it isnt outweighs it. Lascannon is better in certain situations, autocannons are better in others. Lascannons are good at going for explosions, Autocannons are good at getting those hullpoints.

With tank hunter

Autocannon gets .56 hullpoints against armor 12 and 5% chance of destroyed
Lascannon gets .44 hull points and 6.25% chance of destroyed

Unbuffed
Autocannon .33 2.8% destroyed
LAscannon .33 4.2%

Against armor 11 autocannon gets better, against armor 13+ lascannon is better.

We've been over the math on autocannons vs. lascannons a million times over the years. The lascannons always win.

Against AV11, 3 lascannons deal 1.26 HP with a 1 in 3 chance of wrecking the vehicle outright, compared to 3 autocannon's 1.5 HP with a 1 in 6 chance to wreck the vehicle outright. A tiny loss of average hull points for twice as likely to explode the vehicle (and bringing it to good enough odds you'll actually have it happen). The lascannon is better here.

Which leaves the autocannon better against AV10, and against a bunch of stuff that neither weapon is good against (like GEq, for example), while the lascannon is better against AV12, AV13, AV14, TEq, MEq, and all MCs.

Which means, now as always, the autocannon is a niche weapon designed only to hunt down light vehicles, while the lascannon kills whatever it points at.

As it should for twice as many points. The superiority of the lascannon was not in question. However the additional expendature versus returns was the question.

I agree that autocannons are very useful. I would actually say that the decision is much more dependent on meta but against almost all MCs, any AV12+ with cover the lascannon is better as you can afford to give it ignore cover and still get good glance/pen averages.

These include Waveserpent, Wraithkights, Riptides, CD MCs, Nids not Harpy MCs, landraiders, leman russ'.

Flyers they are equally bad/good against with the jink actually being somewhat desirable to force the opponent into but reducing damage and the high damage cap being negated by single turn kills being much more desirable.

Autocannons do have a place though. With tank hunters they are better against harpies, certain high T infantry, and AV10 and they cost 50 pts less over 5 AC/LC.

When you say they are half the cost this is somewhat disingenuous as the carrier cost, prescience, and tank hunters all have costs associated with them. The autocannons are not doing a lot without those buffs and IS's to protect them. In a way you can ask is it worth 50 pts to save 110 pts so you don't have to get another CCS and primaris?

You are correct, however I am taking them for a specific purpose right now which is to get more shots at fmc. I like having 6 shots to try and get that hit rather than relying on three. But like I said in my list they fill a specific role and my other needs are taken care of by other units.

As to your argument you are already spending those points to give the lascannon tank hunter/twinlink/ignore cover so it is moot to add them to the cost.

However it is 60 points versus 70 points so a 16.6% increase in cost.

Also against the most worrisome AV12 I believe that the Autocannon is better(Wave serpent with shield up)

Leth wrote:As it should for twice as many points.

Carrier costs.

A PIS with a lascannon isn't twice as expensive as a PIS with an autocannon.

Leth wrote:However it is 60 points versus 70 points so a 16.6% increase in cost.

For being much better at practically everything, 16% is a bargain.

Leth wrote: I am taking them for a specific purpose right now which is to get more shots at fmc.

Then why take an autocannon. Why not take a heavy bolter? Why bother with heavy weapons at all? You get more shots per point from lasguns.

Leth wrote:You are correct, however I am taking them for a specific purpose right now which is to get more shots at fmc. I like having 6 shots to try and get that hit rather than relying on three. But like I said in my list they fill a specific role and my other needs are taken care of by other units.

Fair enough. I definitely believe the AC has it's uses. I have 6 of the DKoK AC models after all.

Leth wrote:As to your argument you are already spending those points to give the lascannon tank hunter/twinlink/ignore cover so it is moot to add them to the cost.

However it is 60 points versus 70 points so a 16.6% increase in cost.

That's the thing though. You are taking 500-700 pts to ensure all this and get it off properly. Therefore the difference in those two lists is 50 pts out of 500 pts. That is a 10% difference.

Also against the most worrisome AV12 I believe that the Autocannon is better(Wave serpent with shield up)

I think my problem is that I feel like my list will contain a bunch of rending S5 shots and some lascannons. I don't really see a place for ACs there. (Other than the obvious quadgun ones... and the quadgun is likely to be the squad that definitely gets the Tank hunters order with it being twin-linked and 2 ACs worth of shots + 1 extra AC/LC from the squad.)

I think my problem is I'm having trouble remembering the last time AP 4 was useful against anything I've faced, whereas AP2 is twice the explodes chance and many times the armor save fail chance.

fair enough, you guys are making solid points. I will have to reconsider my position.

So used to my lists being so tight I literally cant find 5 points to spare, so when I see a reasonable opportunity to cut 10 I guess it overrides reason.

I will have to try out both

Lascannons are better in almost every situation in my opinion.

Autocannons are great for killing things that the Guard has no trouble killing already. If you really really want to get medium-strength AP4 shots, grenade launchers are even cheaper, and we all know how much garbage they are...

 Leth wrote:
fair enough, you guys are making solid points. I will have to reconsider my position.

So used to my lists being so tight I literally cant find 5 points to spare, so when I see a reasonable opportunity to cut 10 I guess it overrides reason.

I will have to try out both

Excellent. I would say this is the best answer to any question in 40K. Play more games and try out the options.

I have no problem being wrong. They presented solid evidence when I was going on intuition of the math instead of calculating it myself.

I will admit half of it was biased by the fact that I just got 3 DKOK autocannon teams, but I also got 3 lascannon teams. Eventually I will probably try a autocannon heavy weapons team see how that works

 ansacs wrote:

 Leth wrote:
fair enough, you guys are making solid points. I will have to reconsider my position.

So used to my lists being so tight I literally cant find 5 points to spare, so when I see a reasonable opportunity to cut 10 I guess it overrides reason.

I will have to try out both

Excellent. I would say this is the best answer to any question in 40K. Play more games and try out the options.

Yea. its weird how many things work well on paper, or even mathhammer out better, but once you get them on the table you see how things actually work in concert together. That just takes practice on the table.

Its not like pask where the guns are so different in stats that it is hard to do a direct comparison but with lascannon and autocannons it is pretty straight forward.

However with the change to the vehicle damage table, assuming rending does not get AP 2 for vehicles as well as losing reliable prescience I think vanquisher pask is going to pull ahead. With having to glance to get a kill the AP1/2 shots will be needed when you want to go for some serious damage.

7th ed vehicle damage chart

1-3 shaken
4 stunned
5 weapon destroyed
6 immobilized
7+ explodes

Well that reopens the LC v AC debate and causes us to rethink anti tank. LC only have a 50% chance of exploding before 3 hp are stripped and AC can only destroy by hp stripping.

LC and AC are even in HP stripped against av12 until a unit gets tank hunters through orders, then AC strip 25% more HP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ratio of hp lost with tank hunters

av10 ac1.77 to lc 1
av11 ac 1.54 to lc1
av12 ac 1 to lc 0.8
av13 ac 1 to lc 1.2

 Leth wrote:
I have no problem being wrong. They presented solid evidence when I was going on intuition of the math instead of calculating it myself.

I will admit half of it was biased by the fact that I just got 3 DKOK autocannon teams, but I also got 3 lascannon teams. Eventually I will probably try a autocannon heavy weapons team see how that works

 ansacs wrote:

 Leth wrote:
fair enough, you guys are making solid points. I will have to reconsider my position.

So used to my lists being so tight I literally cant find 5 points to spare, so when I see a reasonable opportunity to cut 10 I guess it overrides reason.

I will have to try out both

Excellent. I would say this is the best answer to any question in 40K. Play more games and try out the options.

Yea. its weird how many things work well on paper, or even mathhammer out better, but once you get them on the table you see how things actually work in concert together. That just takes practice on the table.

Its not like pask where the guns are so different in stats that it is hard to do a direct comparison but with lascannon and autocannons it is pretty straight forward.

However with the change to the vehicle damage table, assuming rending does not get AP 2 for vehicles as well as losing reliable prescience I think vanquisher pask is going to pull ahead. With having to glance to get a kill the AP1/2 shots will be needed when you want to go for some serious damage.

I think sometimes too the problem is the thing that mathhammers well is the obvious first thing for your opponent to kill or hide from. I'm almost wondering if maybe I should go through and find things that feel weak intuitively, but mathematically are scary (like Pask's punisher to someone that forgets he can reroll armor pen or doesn't understand how Rending works when you're getting 15+ hits.) or the Wyvern if the enemy clumps up thinking, oh it's only S4, lol. Awesome units that are obviously awesome make big targets.

One thing I really want to try, and I'm not sure it's the most efficient unit but it kind of grew up organically as I plan to upgrade existing units in an escalation league is: vet squad with a LC, on the Aegis quad gun, with terminator inquisitor with psycannon. 8 S7 AP4 shots (half of them rending) and 1 S9 AP2 shot. With tank hunters that unit becomes scary to sub AV13 things at long range. The vets can have a 3+ cover save the inquisitor has a 2+/5++. The main weakness is the cost and the T3. On the bright side they will do far better manning that quad gun than any of my small sisters squads because of the tank hunter and the larger model count.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 schadenfreude wrote:
7th ed vehicle damage chart

1-3 shaken
4 stunned
5 weapon destroyed
6 immobilized
7+ explodes

Well that reopens the LC v AC debate and causes us to rethink anti tank. LC only have a 50% chance of exploding before 3 hp are stripped and AC can only destroy by hp stripping.

LC and AC are even in HP stripped against av12 until a unit gets tank hunters through orders, then AC strip 25% more HP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ratio of hp lost with tank hunters

av10 ac1.77 to lc 1
av11 ac 1.54 to lc1
av12 ac 1 to lc 0.8
av13 ac 1 to lc 1.2

The non-melta knight can't kill a Rhino/Taurox/any cheap 3 HP transport in a single turn now... The melta one has a <33% chance. I'm thinking this makes Rhino/Chimera/taurox spam more viable now. (Sadly, this isn't a thing i can test anytime soon given my speed at painting vehicles :()

Chimera are very unlikely to explode now and provide good cover when they wreck.

I'm thinking I want to play a more mobile Guard force this Sunday, since my oppponent said last week he hates facing gunlines. I wonder how Rough Riders would work. Maybe some melta vets?

Sentinels just got a bit better since most weapons that you want to fire at something that cheap/in armored can't blow them up right away now.

So here's something I noticed now that we have easy access to deep striking scoring troops in our ally slot.

Previously, IG had no option like this without allying in Space Marines with drop pods. Even with that, you're getting bolters plus 1 special 1 heavy, not a whole lot of firepower IMO if you compare that to two special weapons plus S3 AP3 (which is very good against xeno sv4+ infantry, okay against MEQ in a pinch), on top of the option for orders buffing the squad. The scoring storm troopers cost in this case using deep strike is comparable to the Marines with the pod.

Even take the Sternguard veterans in a pod, which needs a 185point HQ tax in order to score, which are the supposed to be ultimate end all be all of special forces, for a unit of 10 and a couple special weapons comes to almost 500 points.

The deep striking Scion command squad + 10 man scion squad and two plasma or melta is HALF that cost! With Sv 3+ not being worth much nowadays, the fifteen bodies of Scions seems like the superior option in all cases.

Thoughts?

I played my first battle with the new guard dex the other day against a tyranid opponent. Despite successfully using mech guard for a good few years, I though I'd try out the new cheap conscripts combined with a few priests, plus standard infantry blobs and a few supporting Leman Russes.

Well it was the exact same result as blob guard in the old dex, which is to say they were destroyed by shooting and the remainders crushed in assault. Priests made them a lot better in close combat sure, but they're still squishy, have a huge footprint, and have crappy firepower at any range.

Next time I'll try out the new super cheap carapace vets and more leman russes. At about 1250 points I can bring 3 squads with plasma guns and a CCS for 450 points, leaving me 800 to spend on my tanks. I could get about 5 Leman Russes in, I'd like to diversify more but I'm limited in what I can proxy.

Conscripts are like violence. If they don't solve all your problems you're not using enough of them.

I've been running about 75 of them. They take heavy losses but tend to box people into their deployment zone giving me mid field control. They can become really scary if an inquisitor attaches right before they charge.

How are you guys fitting out your CCS now? I'm starting to think I should run them naked and just hide them near my squads. Also I am finding with priests and psykers it is easier to be more aggressive with even 30 man blobs of guard.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
How are you guys fitting out your CCS now? I'm starting to think I should run them naked and just hide them near my squads. Also I am finding with priests and psykers it is easier to be more aggressive with even 30 man blobs of guard.

I just give mine Kurov's Aquila then bury them amongst my thudds and sabres.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
How are you guys fitting out your CCS now? I'm starting to think I should run them naked and just hide them near my squads. Also I am finding with priests and psykers it is easier to be more aggressive with even 30 man blobs of guard.

The CCS is largely the same as it was. Bare, or with a Mortar or Lascannon are all good options, the Regimental Standard is a must-take if you're running infantry, and the various Advisers are all good pics.

Aggressive blobs certainly benefit from the support options, as it generally puts up their damage output at any given range with a Psyker/Priest combo.

Ive been giving my CCS snipers and camo, and letting them camp a quad gun. the snipers give a little extra reach.

Or packing it with GL for dirt cheap extra punch in a pinch.

I still run them how i used to; Vox, Standard 2 palsmaguns, commander is either naked or with a shotgun, rarely with any other gear.

I did ran some speudo-apocalypse game, I had everyone in carapace and camo-gear, but it ranks up the cost; 16 for the vet and 15 for the commander alone...

I dumped my CCS but run 2 platoons and have had good results from my 2 quad sniper PCS. The officer no longer needs LOS to I place a backfield objective near a LOS blocker and stick out the 4 snipers to shoot with the officer out of view.

Ok boys here is one for you :-)

How aboot a full conscript squad with an inquisitor with the null rod and the psyocculum, and just go hunting any psychic on the table.
True its a very linear unit but with the new rules for psykers my guess is most armies are going to pack a few. And most of the top tier lists are based around psychic powers. This is a cheap unit that will have to be dealt with.

Gonna have to be careful with precision shot from a few armies but other than that, sounds good.

I would add something else to it to give it more punch but that is me. Really depends on the rest of the unit(maybe give the inquisitor the scout book as well?)

Your saying 50 Bs10 shots hasnt got punch? Lol you could add the scout book but I was trying to keep the unit nice and cheap. You dont really want to be in combat just get into firing range give them an order and laugh manically :-)

Personally i rather drop the psyocculum on a infantry blob that has some nice heavy weapons and maybe some specials.

Useless Sidekick wrote:Your saying 50 Bs10 shots hasnt got punch? Lol you could add the scout book but I was trying to keep the unit nice and cheap. You dont really want to be in combat just get into firing range give them an order and laugh manically :-)

Desubot wrote:Personally i rather drop the psyocculum on a infantry blob that has some nice heavy weapons and maybe some specials.

I would agree with putting it on IS's with heavies and specials. The problem with conscript's ranged damage is two fold; 1) you will never get 50 models into range of anything your speed or better (which is everything) and if you do you are so bunched up they die immediately and 2) they are still lasguns so there are a lot of things they will bounce off of.

Conscripts are hilarious for giving them precision shot and prescience. If you get into double tap range you are looking at 30 precision shots. The look on the other player's face is priceless.

Useless Sidekick wrote:
Your saying 50 Bs10 shots hasnt got punch? Lol you could add the scout book but I was trying to keep the unit nice and cheap. You dont really want to be in combat just get into firing range give them an order and laugh manically :-)

He's saying strength 3 ap6 guns with an 18'' range don't have punch.

Thats my usual game plan but doesnt prescience work better on them? Bs3 re-roll will get more hits than Bs2 re-roll? The psyocculum is turning a pretty weak shooting unit into an absolute nightmare. Saving your blob to shoot at other units. And putting it into a kitted out blob is asking for every weapon to be shot at the blob. If they are only shooting at you conscripts its a win win :-)


I see your point about the movement. I will still give it a go and see how it does :-)

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Useless Sidekick wrote:
Your saying 50 Bs10 shots hasnt got punch? Lol you could add the scout book but I was trying to keep the unit nice and cheap. You dont really want to be in combat just get into firing range give them an order and laugh manically :-)

He's saying strength 3 ap6 guns with an 18'' range don't have punch.

Sorry, but you're wrong on two accounts here. Lasguns are AP- and 24'' range, rapid fire.

Maybe if you don't even understand the fundamental basic weapon on an army you shouldn't make smart ass comments concerning it? Perhaps?

A 30 man blob under the effects of FRFSRF, or even at double tap alone will put out relatively quite a considerable amount of firepower. I've certainly had far better kill tallies with them than with full strength Tactical Squads.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Useless Sidekick wrote:
Your saying 50 Bs10 shots hasnt got punch? Lol you could add the scout book but I was trying to keep the unit nice and cheap. You dont really want to be in combat just get into firing range give them an order and laugh manically :-)

He's saying strength 3 ap6 guns with an 18'' range don't have punch.

Sorry, but you're wrong on two accounts here. Lasguns are AP- and 24'' range, rapid fire.

Maybe if you don't even understand the fundamental basic weapon on an army you shouldn't make smart ass comments concerning it? Perhaps?

U mad bro? I've been looking at Stormtroopers with 18'' range HSLG's all day- mistakes happen. Regardless, I'll be making as many smartass comments as I like; keep crying about it though.

A 30 man blob under the effects of FRFSRF, or even at double tap alone will put out relatively quite a considerable amount of firepower. I've certainly had far better kill tallies with them than with full strength Tactical Squads.

Good luck getting a 6'' move squad within 12'' of a lynch-pin enemy psyker, which is what this fellow wants to do. 100 lasgun shots is indeed "relatively" scary, whatever that means, but there's better options for what he wants to do.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Useless Sidekick wrote:
Your saying 50 Bs10 shots hasnt got punch? Lol you could add the scout book but I was trying to keep the unit nice and cheap. You dont really want to be in combat just get into firing range give them an order and laugh manically :-)

He's saying strength 3 ap6 guns with an 18'' range don't have punch.

Sorry, but you're wrong on two accounts here. Lasguns are AP- and 24'' range, rapid fire.

Maybe if you don't even understand the fundamental basic weapon on an army you shouldn't make smart ass comments concerning it? Perhaps?

U mad bro? Regardless, I'll be making as many smartass comments as I like; keep crying about it though.

A 30 man blob under the effects of FRFSRF, or even at double tap alone will put out relatively quite a considerable amount of firepower. I've certainly had far better kill tallies with them than with full strength Tactical Squads.

Good luck getting a 6'' move squad within 12'' of a lynch-pin enemy psyker, which is what this fellow wants to do. 100 lasgun shots is indeed "relatively" scary, whatever that means, but there's better options for what he wants to do.

U mad bro? Regardless, I'll be making as many smartass comments as I like; keep crying about it though.

Lololo umad? Umad-umad-umad?

Lolololo are you 12?

The fact that here you're literally using it as a trigger response without me even being obviously agitated only goes to show that you're a pot calling a white tea cup black with the latter part. Does this in itself make me mad? Nah. In fact I'm satisfied with reading this statement since you've denigrated your appearance to that of a pubescent child having just discovered internet memes.

I could have just replaced this with the Navy Seal copy pasta. Think of how much effort that would have taken, and how smart and matured that would have me seem. Gee.

Good luck getting a 6'' move squad within 12'' of a lynch-pin enemy psyker, which is what this fellow wants to do. 100 lasgun shots is indeed "relatively" scary, whatever that means, but there's better options for what he wants to do.

Getting effectively 46~+ automatic S3 hits on a Psyker's unit from 24'' away, combined with a 6'' scout, 6'' move, in the preceding turn MMM and in that turn possibly FFTE so they can't evade as easily means distance is not such an issue with that strategy, so long as your deployment is competent. Maybe it'll take 1-2 turns to get there, but still, Psykers are probably the most long lasting models you can get and don't often get massacred by turn 3 or even 2 - alternatively the mere threat or deterrent can restrict their movement, particularly with Psychic MC's.

With FRFSRF you're getting 90~+ automatic S3 hits max in the higher end of the spectrum at 24'' and maybe around 50-60-70 if not all are in range and FRFSRF is in effect.

Seems like a lot invested in a relatively situational strategy. I would still rather get some nice lascannons in the unit so I can take advantage of the ignore cover order and get some guaranteed wounds on.

Also I tried a 3 infantry squads blob with lascannons and yarrick on a icarus with the ignore cover power.....With an attached Inqusitor for LD 10 stubborn

nice.....wiped out two units of jetbikes and a unit of broadsides.

Also twinlinked my conscript squad, gave them the ignore cover order, and dropped my ordanance barrage taking out his buff commander and skyray.


Nice....

Yeah, the Yarrick blob is murder on almost anything. It is not even something most units want to charge.

I agree it is very situational but with a big step in the new 7th ed rules towards psychics it might be worth it and its only around 200pts.
On the out manoeuvring thing thats ok too if they are trying to keep away from it. Its restricting what the psykers can buff/debuff. Cleaver deployment can really screwed up their game plan.

I think if you are already taking the conscripts its not bad but I would rather give a blob of infantry squads with some heavy weapons for a few points more the same abilities.

I mean would you rather fire lasguns at a farseer squad with a 2+ re-rollable at 24 inchs, or would you rather fire lascannons putting them at a 4+ re-rollable and causing instant death at 48 inchs

The lascannon blob is the better choice. But it also makes it the biggest target in the game and every weapon the eldar player has will be fired at you big expensive blob to neutralise it.
Now if you prescience the lc blob and have the bs10 conscripts he has to choose between the two. And if the conscripts take a pounding just move the inquisitor into the big blob :-).

I have been running the lc/plasma blob with the inquisitor and it does take a beating after ave used it to shoot a psychic unit :-) good job they are on a landing platform :-)

Thing is that the blob is relatively cheap its 210 points for a 3 man unit and then 30 for platoon cmd. Easily fit 2 in a list with conscript blobs as well

I'm really second guessing LC in 7th ed because of the new vehicle damage chart where they only explode on a 7+.

I'm thinking mechanized melta and foot AC might be the way to go now.

AC gain more from tank hunters than LC.

I'm also thinking mech is back the new black.

2 vets can hit on a 5+ while the vehicle goes 12" per turn.

That increases to 5/9 chance of hitting if a lvl1 primaris joins the squad.

The Chimera has objective secured so scoring for mech will be even easier than in 5th.

Chimera can only explode from AP2 and AP1 weapons.

Ye I suppose ave been running a 50 man squad combining as and when needed :-) ave not played that many games so still learning the new dex :-/

I think the conscript squad works for me because I face nids and having the bs10 plus 'bring it down' really puts wounds on my mates m/c's.

On another note am guessing the precision shot will have a usr now as well to stop the order from being used wrong.

Am thinking mech vets, valks/dettas and scicons are going to be the way to go! With the new rules 'every unit is scoring am glad I havent downloaded the MT book :-/

Autocannons are meh at best against anything Av12 and above. If you do the tank hunters you are not getting ignore cover.

Dear god I am now arguing the opposite side of the coin now...

 Mr.Omega wrote:

Good luck getting a 6'' move squad within 12'' of a lynch-pin enemy psyker, which is what this fellow wants to do. 100 lasgun shots is indeed "relatively" scary, whatever that means, but there's better options for what he wants to do.

Getting effectively 46~+ automatic S3 hits on a Psyker's unit from 24'' away, combined with a 6'' scout, 6'' move, in the preceding turn MMM and in that turn possibly FFTE so they can't evade as easily means distance is not such an issue with that strategy, so long as your deployment is competent. Maybe it'll take 1-2 turns to get there, but still, Psykers are probably the most long lasting models you can get and don't often get massacred by turn 3 or even 2 - alternatively the mere threat or deterrent can restrict their movement, particularly with Psychic MC's.

With FRFSRF you're getting 90~+ automatic S3 hits max in the higher end of the spectrum at 24'' and maybe around 50-60-70 if not all are in range and FRFSRF is in effect.

50 conscripts would go up to BS10 versus a psyker's unit which pretty much means auto hits. Threat range from deployment with the book is 24" range +6" move +6" scout=36" threat range for single shot rapid fire range which goes up to double tap with FRFSRF scoring about 100 hits. That's 50 wounds against a t3 target, 33 versus a t4 target, and 16 wounds versus a t5 or t6 target. With 7th ed rules they would also be BS8 versus a psychic FMC and would land a reliable 16 wounds or so on fateweaver, flyrants, or a deamon prince.

It's a good combo but only witch hunter inquisitors can take the BS10 v psykers item and only xeno can take rad grenades so it's a tough call.

 Leth wrote:
Autocannons are meh at best against anything Av12 and above. If you do the tank hunters you are not getting ignore cover.

Dear god I am now arguing the opposite side of the coin now...

Lol, welcome to the darkside

If you look at the math the LC is almost even on the HP (2.5 LC vs 2.7 AC) against AV12 when the cover save is 5+ (as the LC can afford to use ignore cover orders instead of tank hunters). Even though the explodes goes to 7+ this evens out as the autocannon looses all ability to explode the vehicle while the lascannon just gets a bit worse at it. The biggest consideration though is that the lascannon stays better against AV13+ and MC's other than crones.

There are a lot of factors we don't know yet though. If ignore cover changes, jink, and snap fire all change then it could go either way depending.

 Leth wrote:
Autocannons are meh at best against anything Av12 and above. If you do the tank hunters you are not getting ignore cover.

Dear god I am now arguing the opposite side of the coin now...

Ignore cover is only a -2 to cover saves.

Against AV12

Tank hunters brings the chance of a HP strip up from 1/3 to 5/9.

LC has a natural 2/3 chance to strip HP so 6/9 to make math easy. Explodes will be as rare as current AC explodes, and 50% of the time LC will strip 3 hp before they explode anything.

Without cover the base is 10 tank hunting AC HP lost to every 6 LC ignore cover HP lost.

4+ cover from jink brings that ratio down to 5 AC and 5 LC HP stripped.

3+ cover brings the ratio down to 3.33 and 3.333

So dead even against AV12. The AC is cheaper and strips a lot of HP from anything that doesn't decide to jink while the LC has a 25% chance to explode before wrecking.

Ratio of tank hunting LC to AC against AV12 8 LC HP to every 10 AC HP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rhinos may be back in the meta.

Tac marines in a rhino can move 12" and fire a special + heavy weapon at BS2.

Strikes and Purifiers in a Rhino can move 12" and fire 8 psycannon shots in heavy 4 mode at BS2 for a 36" threat range. They also can hit flyers and FMC at BS2.

Rhinos are objective denied scoring units.

AC v LC against rhinos is a lot different than AV12.

AC will strip 1.5 HP to every .97 HP a LC strips. A pair of AC will strip 3HP wrecking a rhinio in the same time a pair of LC will strip 1.96HP. A pair of LC pens will explode a rhino 25.3% of the time while the 3HP stripped by AC will wreck a rhino 100% of the time.

 schadenfreude wrote:
50 conscripts would go up to BS10 versus a psyker's unit which pretty much means auto hits. Threat range from deployment with the book is 24" range +6" move +6" scout=36" threat range for single shot rapid fire range which goes up to double tap with FRFSRF scoring about 100 hits. That's 50 wounds against a t3 target, 33 versus a t4 target, and 16 wounds versus a t5 or t6 target. With 7th ed rules they would also be BS8 versus a psychic FMC and would land a reliable 16 wounds or so on fateweaver, flyrants, or a deamon prince.

It's a good combo but only witch hunter inquisitors can take the BS10 v psykers item and only xeno can take rad grenades so it's a tough call.

Saying such a unit has even a 24" range is completely misleading. Saying it has a 36" threat range means you have never put the models out and measured.

With 2" spacing the 50 conscripts (10x5 formation for ease of calculation, usually worse due to terrain) has a ~450" surface area or rather if the target is right in the center of the front rank (ie in melee) then the models on the edges of the front rank will be almost 15" from the target, the model in the back rank is ~15", and the models in the back corners are 21". So a model 24" from the front rank will allow 1-5 models to shoot. Even if we are generous as assume a 24" threat range (6" move, 6" scout) then at least a third of your models will be out of range. If you bunch up then you will loose most of the unit turn 1 from TFC, wyverns, etc. so 50 models will never happen unless your opponent does it for you (BTW with 6" scout and 6" movement you will only be at the edge of your deployment zone). Also 33 wounds sounds like a lot until you consider what you said you are shooting at; ie seer councils, screamer stars, FMC, etc. Most of the critters that are both psykers, going to be within 24" of the front line, and in LoS.

 ansacs wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
50 conscripts would go up to BS10 versus a psyker's unit which pretty much means auto hits. Threat range from deployment with the book is 24" range +6" move +6" scout=36" threat range for single shot rapid fire range which goes up to double tap with FRFSRF scoring about 100 hits. That's 50 wounds against a t3 target, 33 versus a t4 target, and 16 wounds versus a t5 or t6 target. With 7th ed rules they would also be BS8 versus a psychic FMC and would land a reliable 16 wounds or so on fateweaver, flyrants, or a deamon prince.

It's a good combo but only witch hunter inquisitors can take the BS10 v psykers item and only xeno can take rad grenades so it's a tough call.

With 2" spacing the 50 conscripts (10x5 formation for ease of calculation, usually worse due to terrain)

This is fallacial theory hammer, sorry. You are not putting 50 Conscripts in a neat 5 rank 2'' coherency maxed formation, not practically, not if you're competent. This makes the crux of your point here effectively moot.

The front ranks might be more spaced, but the back ranks are probably not as there is often very little need if you're not facing barrage en masse. There is also the pitch fork model formation at the front you can pull where in you have two cross linked strands moving up the table that minimises template coverage even more.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 ansacs wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
50 conscripts would go up to BS10 versus a psyker's unit which pretty much means auto hits. Threat range from deployment with the book is 24" range +6" move +6" scout=36" threat range for single shot rapid fire range which goes up to double tap with FRFSRF scoring about 100 hits. That's 50 wounds against a t3 target, 33 versus a t4 target, and 16 wounds versus a t5 or t6 target. With 7th ed rules they would also be BS8 versus a psychic FMC and would land a reliable 16 wounds or so on fateweaver, flyrants, or a deamon prince.

It's a good combo but only witch hunter inquisitors can take the BS10 v psykers item and only xeno can take rad grenades so it's a tough call.

With 2" spacing the 50 conscripts (10x5 formation for ease of calculation, usually worse due to terrain)

This is fallacial theory hammer, sorry. You are not putting 50 Conscripts in a neat 5 rank 2'' coherency maxed formation, not practically, not if you're competent. This makes the crux of your point here effectively moot.

The front ranks might be more spaced, but the back ranks are probably not as there is often very little need if you're not facing barrage en masse. There is also the pitch fork model formation at the front you can pull where in you have two cross linked strands moving up the table that minimises template coverage even more.

An IC can jump ship between blobs/conscripts to give whichever one needs it the BS bonus.

It's still a 36" turn 1 and 30" turn 2+ threat range per conscript/guardsman. The psyker still needs to close the gap. There are also some other factors.

Dispell dice can focus on fortune.

You're operating under the assumption that the psyker is going to cower in his own deployment zone for the entire game. If psykers have to hide outside of masses of guardsmen then that's also a win. If the psyker isn't part of a resiliency death star then BS10 will be very punishing if the psyker steps foot into no man's land or my side of the board.

Blobs can be quite mobile with move move move if nothing is within 24".

Ranks usually work best with 3 ranks of 15 plus some stragglers somewhere.

70 hits from 35 conscripts in range is still some pretty staggering dakka.

Some opponents don't bring blasts/templates. I have faced many Eldar lists that leave them at home and they really struggle with large numbers of guardsmen.

I don't need max 2" scatter when dealing with 5" pies. If a few 5" pies are all they have I really don't care if 8 conscripts die instead of 5 it's not worth sweating over 9 points. If it's a wyvern or thudd sure scatter as much as possible, but a pair of demolisher cannons is nothing for conscripts to be afraid of. A single TFC can only kill 12 conscripts a turn if they are poorly scattered and will probably still bag 6 if they are well scattered. It all depends on the list I am facing. .

I am actually coming around on that idea, I can still get servo skulls, I can still get the book. For 50 points min I am considering it. 89 points with level 1 and 3 skulls. I could see it being useful I will give it a try since I have never actually used my grenades. I can still get scout from my white scar characters.....hummm I dig it

I definitely need more practice moving and deploying that many models on the table though before I will be tournament ready with it. Getting two more games in this week so hopefully I will be more ready

Going from about 35 models to over 100 is a bit difficult to adjust to deployment wise, especially with good terrain.

Who cares aboot 2" spacing if I know I can get all the conscripts into range on the first turn and shoot at a seer council with a First rank second rank fire order or the fire and run order (might not be much of a move but it spaces me out a bit? It might not kill them all but I am going to take a big chunk out of the unit (how many points is a standard seerstar???) And if the conscripts get killed big deal they were only 200pts.

The problem is you assume that you are going first, the the jetseer council deployed in LoS and within 30" of you, and that they didn't deploy any infiltrators or scout forward to block you.

Have you seen the new psychic powers BTW. It looks like your idea just took a big improvement from misfortune giving rending and a new power which gives you a 12" movement. Lots of useful stuff.

I am not BTW against the big conscript blob with inquisition support. I personally run a double hammer hand with Azzy for a 4+ invulnerable unit of 50 when I feel like messing around. However you are drastically overestimating how easy it is to get 50 lasguns into firing range of anything important. All the talk about scouting and crescent shapes is all fine and dandy but you cannot deploy the unit more that 6" outside your deployment zone and you get 6" of movement. You do not get to move your crescent edges 8" so as to get that crescent shape and the models have 1" bases. Even with 3 deep you are still at least 3" away with the 4th rank. Also there is absolutely no reason the other player has to accommodate you and deploy an expensive seerstar within 30" of a conscript blob, especially when you count on going first so the seer star is not a rerollable 2+. It is something to keep in mind but I would not be counting on this.

Just tried it out today. If i had been facing someone other than FMC it would have been fantastic.

I would have just moved him over to my lascannon blob to ignore cover as well as ignore cover. If they get close, then every one of the death stars that requires a psyker gets unloaded on. from either conscripts or a blob. I think its awesome. I am definately going to keep one in my list

So what force weapon are you guys utilizing on you primaris's ? I have been using staffs just because I have this compulsion to adhere to wysiwyg but I am about to kitbash my own primaris and want to see what the consensus is on the most useful weapon with the new changes coming tomorrow.

Axe in 6th, axe in 7th.

Best overall damage. Doesn't lose much with crappy I3.

 schadenfreude wrote:
Axe in 6th, axe in 7th.

Best overall damage. Doesn't lose much with crappy I3.

Also you are not likely to be spending your warp charges giving them force anyway so might as well get the ap2

Well, what are you going to do with your IG army after the psychic changes, dakka players?

I myself am considering one of the two changes:
1. Drop psykers totally - benefit is a lot of points saved
2. Spam as many psykers as we can - benefit is prescience or other bonuses plus chance to deny enemy blessings..., negative is a huge point cost of that spam without any adding to the army list except the psychic bonuses...

I sadly can not use psykers as i was used to (2x ML1 inq psykers for two presciences...110 points, 91.66 chance for two blessing) - now those two ML1 psykers have SMALLER chance to cast ONE prescience than they had when casting TWO in 6th edition...and there will be a lot of dispelling from psyker heavy lists (Eldar, GKs, Daemons...), so dont expect to cast anything if you are not also psyker heavy

 Lothar wrote:

I myself am considering one of the two changes:
1. Drop psykers totally - benefit is a lot of points saved

That "a lot of points" is something like 225 when done right, not a big deal at all IMHO. Especially if you are not afraid using the Daemon Snowball. Also, 3++ Conscripts are neat .

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Lothar wrote:

I myself am considering one of the two changes:
1. Drop psykers totally - benefit is a lot of points saved

That "a lot of points" is something like 225 when done right, not a big deal at all IMHO. Especially if you are not afraid using the Daemon Snowball. Also, 3++ Conscripts are neat .

225 points is 3x ML2 Primaris...and what will be the bonus? 6 dices to warp pool...which means I still have smaller chance to cast 2 prescience blessings than before AND am paying 225 premium cost...so for total of 335 points i have a bit smaller chance to cast something I was casting for 110 points in 6th edition...you get what i want to say? Is that worth it? Thats my dilema (and considering i am playing against eldar all the time, the chance to deny my prescience is very big, because they easily generate 9 dices to warp pool + D6...which means almost certainly that one of the blessings will be denied...)

EDIT: I will NOT use daemon snowball...i play IG because i want to play IG...if i wanted to play daemons, I would have...

 Lothar wrote:

225 points is 3x ML2 Primaris...and what will be the bonus? 6 dices to warp pool...which means I still have smaller chance to cast 2 prescience blessings than before AND am paying 225 premium cost...so for total of 335 points i have a bit smaller chance to cast something I was casting for 110 points in 6th edition...you get what i want to say?

Maybe cast something else than Prescience? You can get 10 Warp Charges (6+D6), can burn 4 for a ~100% Prescience and use the rest for whatever you want. Like Forewarning+Sanctuary. Not to mention that in the enemy Psychic phase, you will have +6 dices to try to dispel stuff.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Lothar wrote:

225 points is 3x ML2 Primaris...and what will be the bonus? 6 dices to warp pool...which means I still have smaller chance to cast 2 prescience blessings than before AND am paying 225 premium cost...so for total of 335 points i have a bit smaller chance to cast something I was casting for 110 points in 6th edition...you get what i want to say?

Maybe cast something else than Prescience? You can get 10 Warp Charges (6+D6), can burn 4 for a ~100% Prescience and use the rest for whatever you want. Like Forewarning+Sanctuary. Not to mention that in the enemy Psychic phase, you will have +6 dices to try to dispel stuff.

Maybe this is a problem in your logic. I dont want to be rude, but you math is false...with 4 dice you have about 69% chance to cast ONE prescience (you need 6 dice to make it 89%, which also means 21%chance to perils)...not counting the enemy deny (which will be very important - if you are playing against psyker heavy list, you will not cast a thing, because the 20 dices in your opponents warppool sais NO...)...

That why I think there are only two options with psychic powers - go big or go home...

Nah I think a small middle ground is perfectly fine. I personally dont plan on having more than 6-8 mastery levels, and there are relatively cheap ways to buy things that increase the pool size.

I think a middle amount is the best. Get a few dice to dispel as well as some protection around while not being overly invested to the point where you get serious diminishing returns on your points spent.

 Leth wrote:
Nah I think a small middle ground is perfectly fine. I personally dont plan on having more than 6-8 mastery levels, and there are relatively cheap ways to buy things that increase the pool size.

I think a middle amount is the best. Get a few dice to dispel as well as some protection around while not being overly invested to the point where you get serious diminishing returns on your points spent.

Well, 8 mastery levels is "going big" pointswise in my opinion. Thats 3 ML 2 primaris psykers and coteaz for example. Which is a lot of points, actually (325!) for psychic support only . 8+D6 dices..lets say 11,5...thats one warp charge2 power and one warp charge1 power cast with good chance (81% for WC2 and 87.5 for WC1) or 4 WC1 powers (or 6 WC 1 if you feel lucky )...a lot of points for that support.

Which is why I plan to try and get psykers that offer additional utility, or are very cheap per point.

For example: 2x acolyte and mystic is 18 points. three of thoose with coteax is 154. That is 5 dice right there. Throw in a inquisitor with x upgrades and that is 254 that offers a crap ton of utility brings 6 dice with two shots at prescience, and three super scoring units. Not bad.

Coteaz and for example a xenos or hereticus inquisitor bring a lot to the table and buff guard units quite well.

It is 225 pts. (3x75)

Also you get prescience and two rolls on the divination table (as far as the rumors I have seen go). This means that you will have several WC1 powers to use hopefully getting ignore cover or a 4++. In fact without the daemon snow ball taking a single psyker gives you the highest dice to powers ration you can have as it is 1d6+ML so with a Lv2 you should get ~5 dice average which gives you a ~81% chance to get prescience off.

This also ignores the fact that you might want to take a different discipline with your primaris now. Telepathy, Biomancy, and Telekinesis have some really useful WC1 powers and Sanctic powers are pretty good though you are likely to detonate the psyker using them (unless GK or Inq).

I think the big thing is that having a psyker or two gives you extra DtW dice and as far as the rumors appears to make the rolls easier. This can make a very big difference if you can block a fortune or stop cursed earth from going off (or at least make the opponent chuck more dice at any one power due to fear of DtW).

 Leth wrote:
Which is why I plan to try and get psykers that offer additional utility, or are very cheap per point.

For example: 2x acolyte and mystic is 18 points. three of thoose with coteax is 154. That is 5 dice right there. Throw in a inquisitor with x upgrades and that is 254 that offers a crap ton of utility brings 6 dice with two shots at prescience, and three super scoring units. Not bad.

Coteaz and for example a xenos or hereticus inquisitor bring a lot to the table and buff guard units quite well.

If Mystic gives you one dice (I am not sure if he has a Mastery level1), why not take 12 of them?

Anyway, trying two prescience with only 6 dice means only 69% success chance...minus DtW from your enemy. Not really reliable if you ask me. Not a a bit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ansacs wrote:

I think the big thing is that having a psyker or two gives you extra DtW dice and as far as the rumors appears to make the rolls easier. This can make a very big difference if you can block a fortune or stop cursed earth from going off (or at least make the opponent chuck more dice at any one power due to fear of DtW).

I dont think you will be able to block fortune if the Eldar player want to play it...but the DtW is nice, you are absolutely right in this.

They are brotherhood of psykers so I would only get 1 regardless

Er we can get a 25pt ml 1 astropath in the ccs as well dont forget? :-)

Guys!

Guys!

...

Invisibility...

...

On Pask and friends.

Who needs re-rolls to hit when you can just make three AV14 nigh unkillable?

Alternatively, bring a titan and cast invisibility on that.

That sir is truly vile :-) I love it

And after the first turn the enemy uses every dispel dice to DtW lol

 Blacksails wrote:
Guys!

Guys!

...

Invisibility...

...

On Pask and friends.

Who needs re-rolls to hit when you can just make three AV14 nigh unkillable?

Alternatively, bring a titan and cast invisibility on that.

\

Reminds me of this:




But ya, what's hilarious is that pasks unit scores. Le sigh. I don't know why they had to mess with the program for scoring. They could have just made a mission where elites scored and called it a day.

Holy gak, yeah, he scores too!

And he's a character so his shots are all precision shots.

And he can be taken as your warlord even if you have a CCS.

Remember we need to think about scoring not as a 5th or 6th edition mindset, but 7th. Everyone scores, so what matters is contesting and super scoring units, that is where the currency is. So things with decent mobility or deployment options are going to be very important. I see new purpose for the taurox now honestly. It is 50 points of mobile super scoring. With objectives claimed at the end of your turn they become quite powerful as they will deny your opponent so they have to deal with it while claiming for you. Same with things like sws in vendettas. Really need to open the book back up and approach it differently

 Blacksails wrote:
Guys!

Guys!

...

Invisibility...

...

On Pask and friends.

Who needs re-rolls to hit when you can just make three AV14 nigh unkillable?

Alternatively, bring a titan and cast invisibility on that.

Only the Astropath has access to telepathy though, so it is hard to get that power.

speaking of psykers, the psyker cards have a tick box section where is says we have access to all the rulebook powers. Does this mean there will be a section in the rules where we no longer need to abide by the psyker restrictions?

Otherwise we wouldnt be able to summon demons for example either. So it may well be the case that invisibility is easy to get.

Trickstick wrote:
Only the Astropath has access to telepathy though, so it is hard to get that power.

See below...

Swastakowey wrote:speaking of psykers, the psyker cards have a tick box section where is says we have access to all the rulebook powers. Does this mean there will be a section in the rules where we no longer need to abide by the psyker restrictions?

Otherwise we wouldnt be able to summon demons for example either. So it may well be the case that invisibility is easy to get.

I'm expecting a FAQ for each codex that will remedy this. Perhaps the Astropath will still have the restriction, but the Primaris and Wyrdvanes won't?

Yea it will be the first thing I look for. Because it will open many doors for the guard in what power they can possible posses.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I just asked someone who has the rule book on another thread. Ill come back with an answer if im lucky.

 Blacksails wrote:

Trickstick wrote:
Only the Astropath has access to telepathy though, so it is hard to get that power.

See below...

Swastakowey wrote:speaking of psykers, the psyker cards have a tick box section where is says we have access to all the rulebook powers. Does this mean there will be a section in the rules where we no longer need to abide by the psyker restrictions?

Otherwise we wouldnt be able to summon demons for example either. So it may well be the case that invisibility is easy to get.

I'm expecting a FAQ for each codex that will remedy this. Perhaps the Astropath will still have the restriction, but the Primaris and Wyrdvanes won't?

I think it is likely that daemonology will simply be added, with the current restrictions remaining in place. The tick boxes would still be correct, as the army as a whole would still have access to all of the disciplines. If they were going to let the primaris have access to telepathy, it is unusual that it would not be available in the codex.

There is nothing in the BRB to say what powers you get, it states this is found in your codex. The card thing is pretty crap, for example Space mairnes have divination ticked, but only tiggy can access divination from the SM codex.

For daemons, tzeentch heralds and GD can access divination, nurgle biomancy, slaanesh telepathy, princes bio telekinese and telepathy, Fatey all of them. So while the ticks may be correct OVERALL they do not replace what is found in your codex. (unless you have old codex in which case hope for a faq).




So its up to FAQ for now.

Hmm, yeah I saw your post in the news thread 'Kowey.

Well, just means I'll be taking an astropath now to fish for Invisibility.

Or see if a FAQ changes anything.

I got invisibility before, out of 3 rolls. But at least the telepathy primaris is decent enough if you dont get it.

 Swastakowey wrote:
I got invisibility before, out of 3 rolls. But at least the telepathy primaris is decent enough if you dont get it.

Yeah, and the Astropath still adds a die to your total in the psychic phase. Not to mention helps against targeted powers for your CCS.

Still not digging what I know of 7th overall, but at least I'm aware of what to expect. That and I think I'll be keeping my Guard for now.

The rules where looking great, but then some questionable ones started popping up. But I too am keeping mine. Just the look of my models is enough to keep them. Time will tell.

What are your thoughts on the regimental standard versus a voxcaster? The standard lets you reroll failed morale, fear and pinning tests and the voxcaster lets you reroll failed orders Ld tests. It seems to me that the voxcaster is the better choice there, especially as it's so much cheaper, or it seems to be, but it adds up quick.

I didn't like much of the changes 6th brought from 5th, and 7th is just moving more in that direction. For those that liked 6th, I can see liking more things about 7th, but there's still a lot of poor design choices, as far as I'm concerned.

Ah well.

Apparently there's a small group of people I partly know in the city I'm moving to in a month, so maybe they'll be awesome and we can fix the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Valhalla130 wrote:
What are your thoughts on the regimental standard versus a voxcaster? The standard lets you reroll failed morale, fear and pinning tests and the voxcaster lets you reroll failed orders Ld tests. It seems to me that the voxcaster is the better choice there, especially as it's so much cheaper, or it seems to be, but it adds up quick.

I've never bothered with either.

Just use priests/commissars for leadership puproses for blobs; nothing else really benefits.

If voxes allowed you to receive orders in vehicles, and anywhere on the board if the CCS had it as well, while also allowing re-rolls within command radius, then I'd buy them.

 Valhalla130 wrote:
What are your thoughts on the regimental standard versus a voxcaster? The standard lets you reroll failed morale, fear and pinning tests and the voxcaster lets you reroll failed orders Ld tests. It seems to me that the voxcaster is the better choice there, especially as it's so much cheaper, or it seems to be, but it adds up quick.

For fluff reasons and looks I take them both.

Its never bad to have more re rolls if you arent highly competitive. Plus its awesome to make the bits. But I draw the line there, I will never take a platoon standard as its pretty awful.

I take the vox to represent discipline with my praetorians and the banner to represent company colours. doesnt feel like wasted points most games.

Fearless Power blobs with Objective Secured laying on an objective accumulating points every turn seems like a pretty good deal.

Yeah I've been having great luck using 3 fearless blobs for objectives, it should be even better with points every turn (objective cards willing)

Only downside is that pulling out and putting up as well as moving that many dudes gets very tiring. Also you can jam up your deployment very quick.

Yep, my first question is usually how many blasts they got. That determines how much effort I put into spacing. Also thank god puppet master is going. I lost 40 guardsmen to my wyvern...

 Leth wrote:
Yep, my first question is usually how many blasts they got. That determines how much effort I put into spacing. Also thank god puppet master is going. I lost 40 guardsmen to my wyvern...

What you really need is invisibility... it would make answering the blasts question really easy

Mavnas wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Yep, my first question is usually how many blasts they got. That determines how much effort I put into spacing. Also thank god puppet master is going. I lost 40 guardsmen to my wyvern...

What you really need is invisibility... it would make answering the blasts question really easy

I agree, however I don't want to build my strategy around something that unreliable. I am thinking 6 mastery levels total in my army with 4 levels I actually plan to cast

If you really want invisibility Tigurius is the safe bet.

 schadenfreude wrote:
If you really want invisibility Tigurius is the safe bet.

Sevrin Loth is a good choice too, as he can select his powers with no risk at all. You can combine invisibility with shrouding and be very hard to kill.

So I just looked into stronghold assault since it is the only source for fortifications now.

Ammo dumps let you re-roll ones for everyone within two.

So now just get within 2 inches of a ammo dump with any blast based weapon they get to re-roll everything. So don't need prescience anymore for plasma cutioners, just invest the 50 points in an aegis, and then 20 points in an ammo dump. Throw in camo cloaks and now you have 3+ cover saves and re-roll anything. Best part, ammo dumps cant be destroyed.

Anyone notice that ordnance no longer makes vehicles snap fire? Sponsons for everyone!

 generalchaos34 wrote:
Anyone notice that ordnance no longer makes vehicles snap fire? Sponsons for everyone!

It does. Look in the vehicle shooting bit.

I heard the heavy USR allows ordinance + regular weapons to be fired. Great news for treadheads.

 schadenfreude wrote:
I heard the heavy USR allows ordinance + regular weapons to be fired. Great news for treadheads.

Well, It at least makes them more appealing, but honestly, comparing the points prices, I'm still not won over. The Demolisher is 15 points more than an Executioner, the LRBT 5 points less, only the Demolisher really has anything significant to offer over the Executioner but still loses out on the Anti-MC capability and you have to pay more.

 schadenfreude wrote:
I heard the heavy USR allows ordinance + regular weapons to be fired. Great news for treadheads.

Correction: the restriction on vehicles firing ordnance is still in place. All other shots must be snap shots. The text is unchanged. There's nothing under heavy vehicles that exempts them from the rule.

 TheSilo wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
I heard the heavy USR allows ordinance + regular weapons to be fired. Great news for treadheads.

Reading it, there only seems to be restrictions on non-vehicle models.

Which means, MOAR DAKKA! Also i noticed that flamers can fry the occupants of an open topped transport as well. So while flamers can't toast vehicles to explode very well (not that they ever had) now your hellhounds can fry up Orks, necrons, and Dark Eldar for dinner.

 generalchaos34 wrote:

 TheSilo wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
I heard the heavy USR allows ordinance + regular weapons to be fired. Great news for treadheads.

Reading it, there only seems to be restrictions on non-vehicle models.

Which means, MOAR DAKKA! Also i noticed that flamers can fry the occupants of an open topped transport as well. So while flamers can't toast vehicles to explode very well (not that they ever had) now your hellhounds can fry up Orks, necrons, and Dark Eldar for dinner.

Reading through, nothing has changed from 6th. All vehicles firing ordnance are only allowed to snap shot with other weapons, whether that vehicle is heavy or not.

No, Vehicles can only make snap shots when firing ordnance.

Page 73

 Mr.Omega wrote:
Lololo umad? Umad-umad-umad?

Lolololo are you 12?

The fact that here you're literally using it as a trigger response without me even being obviously agitated only goes to show that you're a pot calling a white tea cup black with the latter part. Does this in itself make me mad? Nah. In fact I'm satisfied with reading this statement since you've denigrated your appearance to that of a pubescent child having just discovered internet memes.

I could have just replaced this with the Navy Seal copy pasta. Think of how much effort that would have taken, and how smart and matured that would have me seem. Gee.

>Not agitated.

>Paragraph-long rant in response to 1 and a half words.

k.

Getting effectively 46~+ automatic S3 hits on a Psyker's unit from 24'' away, combined with a 6'' scout, 6'' move, in the preceding turn MMM and in that turn possibly FFTE so they can't evade as easily means distance is not such an issue with that strategy, so long as your deployment is competent. Maybe it'll take 1-2 turns to get there, but still, Psykers are probably the most long lasting models you can get and don't often get massacred by turn 3 or even 2 - alternatively the mere threat or deterrent can restrict their movement, particularly with Psychic MC's.

With FRFSRF you're getting 90~+ automatic S3 hits max in the higher end of the spectrum at 24'' and maybe around 50-60-70 if not all are in range and FRFSRF is in effect.

As a Daemons player, I can't say this sounds terribly frightening to me. That's a lot of points you're investing into a unit that I can effectively cripple with one or two flickering fires, and since they're coming to me, and not the other way around, I'll almost definitely get in range to hit it before it hits me.

Vacuum, and all that. But I'll be playing against someone who is using this type of blob in a tournament this weekend. So we'll see.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:
Lololo umad? Umad-umad-umad?

Lolololo are you 12?

The fact that here you're literally using it as a trigger response without me even being obviously agitated only goes to show that you're a pot calling a white tea cup black with the latter part. Does this in itself make me mad? Nah. In fact I'm satisfied with reading this statement since you've denigrated your appearance to that of a pubescent child having just discovered internet memes.

I could have just replaced this with the Navy Seal copy pasta. Think of how much effort that would have taken, and how smart and matured that would have me seem. Gee.

>Not agitated.

>Paragraph-long rant in response to 1 and a half words.

k.

Getting effectively 46~+ automatic S3 hits on a Psyker's unit from 24'' away, combined with a 6'' scout, 6'' move, in the preceding turn MMM and in that turn possibly FFTE so they can't evade as easily means distance is not such an issue with that strategy, so long as your deployment is competent. Maybe it'll take 1-2 turns to get there, but still, Psykers are probably the most long lasting models you can get and don't often get massacred by turn 3 or even 2 - alternatively the mere threat or deterrent can restrict their movement, particularly with Psychic MC's.

With FRFSRF you're getting 90~+ automatic S3 hits max in the higher end of the spectrum at 24'' and maybe around 50-60-70 if not all are in range and FRFSRF is in effect.

I wouldn't say so. As a Daemons player, I can't say this sounds terribly frightening to me. That's a lot of points you're investing into a unit that I can effectively cripple with one or two flickering fires, and since they're coming to me, and not the other way around, I'll almost definitely get in range to hit it before it hits me.

Vacuum, and all that. But I'll be playing against someone who is using this type of blob in a tournament this weekend. So we'll see.

What can I say; posts like that are fun.

I just want to draw attention to the fact you're saying "That I can effectively cripple with two flickering fires" and "vacuum" in the same post to denigrate my argument.

How many units with one or more Psykers can cripple a blob of Guardsmen just like that? Even with T3, I now only need to give some of the models cover (Focus fire is gone) and area terrain is flat out gone, making it far easier to do so without crippling movement.

If the flickering fire is from a different unit, I can always neutralise that if it is a threat, and failing that, you're not shooting at anything else with those presumably powerful units.

The point to bringing up vacuum was to preemptively acknowledge that this conscript blob isn't sitting in the middle of an empty field with no other supporting units on the table. Once you start bringing in arguments about threat saturation (if you shoot at these guys then you're not shooting at these others guys) and "you move this way I move these guys that way", etc. you're delving into a realm of hypothetical discussion that is much murkier, which isn't something I'm going to do.

Having not yet gotten on my hands on a 7E book, isn't cover on a by-model basis now? I'm dubious of the notion that you'd be able to hide the bulk of them behind cover; we're talking about a 50+ model squad here, afterall.

Ramming is now a viable tactic. A Leman Russ does a str10 hit when it rams. It can also take a dozer blade, so that it counts as av15 against the return hit. I am really thinking over trying a full ABG list again, as troop Russes can score and have objective secured. Both of the ABG's main weaknesses have been reduced now: it has access to decent scoring units and the effect of melta has been significantly reduced. Sure, you still pay more than AM tanks until a FW FAQ comes out, but it is a lot better than it was last week.

I did make a fun 1500 list, just to see if an armoured assault could work:

Command Vanquisher - Lascannon, Meltas, Co-ax stubber, beast-hunter shells

3x Demolishers - Heavy Flamer, Dozer Blade

Vulture - Punishers

Stormsword - 4x HB/LC sponsons