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Post by: Crablezworth
If you need a 200pt unit to give your artillery cover, I might suggest playing with some terrain.
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Post by: Ailaros
But come on, are you going to spend 400 points just to improve the cover save of a couple of vehicles by 1?
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Post by: Crablezworth
 Ailaros wrote:But come on, are you going to spend 400 points just to improve the cover save of a couple of vehicles by 1?
Nope.
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Post by: Mr.Omega
I played the following list at 600 today:
CCS, 3 Meltas, Chimera, Astropath
Barebones Priest
Scion Squad of 5, 2 Plasma Guns
Veterans, 3 Meltas, Chimera
Barebones Infantry Platoon
On the second turn of the game, after my opponent jumped his Wraithknight into the midfield and shaved some hull points off my vehicles, I rushed the Chimera squads forwards, the Astropath casted Psychic Shriek and I rolled 17 on the 3D6 after he failed his DTW.
Of those 7 wounds, he passed two with the 5+ invuln, and a meltagun from the CCS finished it off. Bearing in mind that was half my opponent's points, and the fact that the Astropath made his points back literally 10 times over, I think he's quite the reasonable choice in a Mech list.
The Scions deepstruck turn 2, the PCS walked on from reserves (trying to stop my opponent from grabbing first blood) and the former got a hit, landing dead on as the latter issued FFTE!, letting the Scions gun down some Wraithguard before retreating into a forest. Later, some Wraithguard and a Spiritseer charged my platoon blob with the Priest in, and the Priest used the hymn that let me re-roll failed to wounds. The Sergeants alone killed two Wraithguard, the rest of the Guardsmen bayoneted the Seer to death.
Perfect luck this game, undeniably, but I am incredibly impressed with the potential of the Astropath.
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Post by: Kain
 Mr.Omega wrote:I played the following list at 600 today:
CCS, 3 Meltas, Chimera, Astropath
Barebones Priest
Scion Squad of 5, 2 Plasma Guns
Veterans, 3 Meltas, Chimera
Barebones Infantry Platoon
On the second turn of the game, after my opponent jumped his Wraithknight into the midfield and shaved some hull points off my vehicles, I rushed the Chimera squads forwards, the Astropath casted Psychic Shriek and I rolled 17 on the 3D6 after he failed his DTW.
Of those 7 wounds, he passed two with the 5+ invuln, and a meltagun from the CCS finished it off. Bearing in mind that was half my opponent's points, and the fact that the Astropath made his points back literally 10 times over, I think he's quite the reasonable choice in a Mech list.
The Scions deepstruck turn 2, the PCS walked on from reserves (trying to stop my opponent from grabbing first blood) and the former got a hit, landing dead on as the latter issued FFTE!, letting the Scions gun down some Wraithguard before retreating into a forest. Later, some Wraithguard and a Spiritseer charged my platoon blob with the Priest in, and the Priest used the hymn that let me re-roll failed to wounds. The Sergeants alone killed two Wraithguard, the rest of the Guardsmen bayoneted the Seer to death.
Perfect luck this game, undeniably, but I am incredibly impressed with the potential of the Astropath.
Psychic shriek is a pretty awesome power as someone who was quite fond of it back when Tyranids could actually have it rather than need to roll for a downgraded version. It's easily one of the most potentially devastating offensive psychic abilities around and having cheap access to it is a gift.
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Post by: kir44n
Ailaros wrote:But come on, are you going to spend 400 points just to improve the cover save of a couple of vehicles by 1?
Well, 400 no. But The rules for the ogryn state that that it just has to be partially obscured to recieve the bonus. In which case a squad of 3 or 4 (at 145 or 190 respecivily) can do it and be a reasonable buffer for anything that reaches the rear lines. I don't presently have any room for Bullgryn in my present lists, but I could look at using them in the future. Tau and Eldar are under-represented where I am, mostly play against SM, Nids and Orks. And against 2 of those opponents, Ogryn or Bullgryn of either variety aren't a terrible purchase. But time will tell.
I'm currently liking heavy mech lists using vanquisher squadrons for Anti-vehicle, plasma vets for anti- MEQ/ TEQ,manticores/deathstrike for in general barrage schenanigans, and fortifications for anti-air.
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Post by: Red Corsair
 Crablezworth wrote:If you need a 200pt unit to give your artillery cover, I might suggest playing with some terrain.
Well played 
Seriously, bullgryns suck, even with the invuln for one reason. With the extra points you sunk into bullgryn you could put a pair of primaris psychers in that unit and just fish for powers. I mean come on, prescienced ripper guns and a forewarning, way better in and out of hth then the bullgryns.
If I need an aegis I'll by the cheaper ADL get a better hydra (quadgn) and my wall doesn't even shrink when dealt wounds
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Post by: Mr.Omega
 Red Corsair wrote: Crablezworth wrote:If you need a 200pt unit to give your artillery cover, I might suggest playing with some terrain.
Well played
Seriously, bullgryns suck, even with the invuln for one reason. With the extra points you sunk into bullgryn you could put a pair of primaris psychers in that unit and just fish for powers. I mean come on, prescienced ripper guns and a forewarning, way better in and out of hth then the bullgryns.
If I need an aegis I'll by the cheaper ADL get a better hydra (quadgn) and my wall doesn't even shrink when dealt wounds
Ogryns serve one purpose, and that is to charge into a combat they can hopefully win or tarpit in and dish out a small bucket of AP - wounds, that won't break an elite CC unit anyway.
Bullgryns can do exactly that too, only really losing out on mediocre guns, but gaining the ability to synergize with your infantry blobs, tanks and important stuff by giving them a constant 4+ or better cover. They can absorb quite a fair amount of fire so long as they're not being smashed with S10 blasts, which are exceedingly rare, and rarer still worthwhile.
Yes you can buy an ADL, but that ADL can't move, meaning your scoring units evaporate as fast usual if they need to move, and your offensive blobs can't use it for more than a turn. If you need to buy a Quad Gun, you're probably doing something wrong. The wall will take losses, but not quickly, and with every shot thrown at the Bullgryns instead, more of your infantry are going to meet the enemy.
Yes, they're more expensive, but with the supplemental benefits of their inclusion that will always be useful, instead of an unimpressive melee ability that is only sometimes useful, even with a PP or two in there, when you need a Priest too, and you want your PP's elsewhere, the choice is clear for me.
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Post by: Biophysical
Red Corsair wrote:
Seriously, bullgryns suck, even with the invuln for one reason. With the extra points you sunk into bullgryn you could put a pair of primaris psychers in that unit and just fish for powers. I mean come on, prescienced ripper guns and a forewarning, way better in and out of hth then the bullgryns.
If I need an aegis I'll by the cheaper ADL get a better hydra (quadgn) and my wall doesn't even shrink when dealt wounds
This really hit a the nail on the head. Psykers fishing for defensive powers are bringing a lot more for the cost to upgrade Ogs to Bulls.
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Post by: Ailaros
Well, there are two things to credit to bullgryns in general. The first is that they don't need those psychic abilities as much, which means they don't have to rely on you getting certain powers and getting them off at the right time, but they also free up your psykers to do something else. The second is that they're still S+2 Ap4. No psychic power replicates that.
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Post by: Biophysical
Agreed, but that's more of just a nice bonus. Overall killing power per point still favors regular Ogryn.
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Post by: Paradigm
I'd stick with regular Ogryn. I don't like the idea of bringing units just for cover saves (There are better and cheaper options), and I'd rather have something that works in CC and at range (albeit short) that just in CC.
Prescience on Ripper Guns is nice, and the 5+ save isn't that much of an issue, as T5 mitigates a lot of the weakness to small arms. Really, I think Ogryns gained from this codex, as they can now take priests and better/cheaper psykers. The loss of Furious Charge hurt, but I think the other buffing options make up for it.
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Post by: Trickstick
ADL, conscripts, infantry, any vehicle? Something we are not lacking is the ability to shield units.
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Post by: Blacksails
Plus, why bother shielding things when you can just buy more things to kill other things with?
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Post by: Red Corsair
 Blacksails wrote:Plus, why bother shielding things when you can just buy more things to kill other things with?
Give him a cookie. The best defense is a good offense. Turtling hind 400 points of ogryn with absolutely no offense per point is a horrible idea.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ailaros wrote:Well, there are two things to credit to bullgryns in general. The first is that they don't need those psychic abilities as much, which means they don't have to rely on you getting certain powers and getting them off at the right time, but they also free up your psykers to do something else. The second is that they're still S+2 Ap4. No psychic power replicates that.
Your already spending ludicrous amounts of points on bullgryns, more with the stick and shield variety, all that and they still need to be baby sat by a character. Yea sorry that unit is a fail IMO. It's not like regular ogryn with a priest will need the maul to be affective in CC. If I were to field ogryn this edition, its the vanilla variety all the way with a PP.
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Post by: rabidguineapig
Played my first few games today against Eldar and then Dark Eldar w/Eldar allies.
The first list I played had Pask in a Punisher, a couple of Plasma vet squads, a Vendetta, and a 40 man blob with lascannons/plasma guns/Primaris (prescience and 4++)/Priest. The game was against a TAC Eldar list (which means only 2 serpents lol), and despite getting tabled on Turn 7 the Guard put up a solid fight. Pask put a serious hurtin' on some War Walkers and part of a Jetseer squadron and the blob was very resilient.
Second game was against Deldar/Eldar with a couple Venoms, Ravagers, and Raiders along with a small Jetseer council/Crimson Hunter. I had Pask in a Vanquisher with another Vanq. buddy this time and between him and two 30 man blobs with lascannons they made quick work of the Deldar skimmers, and had it not been for the Jetbikes with the Farseer and the Crimson Hunter the game would have been very one sided.
These were the first games I've played with the new Codex, and I was pretty impressed. I was never a foot guard player but the heavy weapons and durability when paired with a primaris and priest was awesome. Pask will be an auto-include for me, as the Punisher with MM and LC was absolutely deadly. I'll probably get another game in on Tuesday to try out some new things...
In terms of the discussions earlier in the thread about blobs vs. MSU, I liked the split approach of having a few medium sized blobs supported by tanks and vets/scions. It makes the opponent prioritize and allows you to split up your firepower to where you need it, the split fire order isn't going to do this for you - trust me.
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Post by: Mr.Omega
 Trickstick wrote:
ADL, conscripts, infantry, any vehicle? Something we are not lacking is the ability to shield units.
ADL can't move, Conscripts suck if not in obscene numbers and with a character attached, and if that character isn't a good challenger say goodbye to the entire unit after your opponent issues one challenge. Plus, you only get at best a 5+ cover. With vehicles either you're affecting their firepower potential adversely, or putting them in peril, or both.
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Post by: Mavnas
Mr.Omega wrote: Trickstick wrote:
ADL, conscripts, infantry, any vehicle? Something we are not lacking is the ability to shield units.
ADL can't move, Conscripts suck if not in obscene numbers and with a character attached, and if that character isn't a good challenger say goodbye to the entire unit after your opponent issues one challenge. Plus, you only get at best a 5+ cover. With vehicles either you're affecting their firepower potential adversely, or putting them in peril, or both.
And your priest that is making this blob fearless accepts that challenge, because?
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Post by: Mr.Omega
Red Corsair wrote: Blacksails wrote:Plus, why bother shielding things when you can just buy more things to kill other things with?
Give him a cookie. The best defense is a good offense. Turtling hind 400 points of ogryn with absolutely no offense per point is a horrible idea.
No offense per point? That's a complete load of toss. A squad of Bullgryns can still do a fair amount of damage to any non-dedicated CC units it charges, and won't go down easily regardless, even without Mauls.
5 Bullgryns and a Priest is 260 points, and can give a squadron of tanks a consistent 4+ cover (that's basically the real winner here) where potentially saving multiple tanks and opening up the opportunities you can exploit (without that 4+ cover, you'd be far less likely to put yourself in the line of fire to get a better shot) is a considerably better investment than 1.5 more,
Yes you could buy more infantry, but that infantry takes up a massive area and by having excessive amounts of them you're forced to cram them together more, just to give one reason not to.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ailaros wrote:Well, there are two things to credit to bullgryns in general. The first is that they don't need those psychic abilities as much, which means they don't have to rely on you getting certain powers and getting them off at the right time, but they also free up your psykers to do something else. The second is that they're still S+2 Ap4. No psychic power replicates that.
Your already spending ludicrous amounts of points on bullgryns, more with the stick and shield variety, all that and they still need to be baby sat by a character.
Yes they're expensive, but a reasonable CC unit, tarpit and wound absorber that lets your vital units, foremost tanks, ignore half of all incoming firepower is invaluable.
Yea sorry that unit is a fail IMO. It's not like regular ogryn with a priest will need the maul to be affective in CC.
I wouldn't take them myself, but I do so some potential with Maulgryns as if you're fighting something like an MC or high initiative unit, if you hit it once after being hit back, you're guaranteed to get a second round of attacks in without any further damage reducing it before it starts because of concussive. Plus, the higher strength is considerably useful against the former. You don't even need your Bullgryns to wind the MC down from full wounds- the rest of your army can weaken it in shooting.
If I were to field ogryn this edition, its the vanilla variety all the way with a PP.
Ogryns are just meh. They give mediocre CC ability that might bully a light/medium infantry unit into submission, and they'll fold easier than Bullgryns under stress without carapace (if you have to face down AP5 from say, Firewarriors or Shuriken weapons, wave goodbye to your unit)
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Post by: Blacksails
Well, I know that for 260pts, I'd just rather have two extra russes, like a pair of Exterminators.
Bringing Bullgryn for the cover save isn't necessarily a bad idea, I'd just much prefer the AV saturation.
Also, I prefer tank hulls over the Ogryn models, but that's just my personal preference.
*Edit* And I know this isn't the first time someone has said this, your method of quoting could at least be improved by a different colour. Would make it pop and stand out a little more.
Like maybe some crimson...or chartreuse...or yellow...no, not yellow.
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Post by: Mr.Omega
Mavnas wrote: Mr.Omega wrote: Trickstick wrote:
ADL, conscripts, infantry, any vehicle? Something we are not lacking is the ability to shield units.
ADL can't move, Conscripts suck if not in obscene numbers and with a character attached, and if that character isn't a good challenger say goodbye to the entire unit after your opponent issues one challenge. Plus, you only get at best a 5+ cover. With vehicles either you're affecting their firepower potential adversely, or putting them in peril, or both.
And your priest that is making this blob fearless accepts that challenge, because?
My bad, I needed to check up on the rules on refusing a challenge. I remembered it as losing conferred special rules and LD, turns out its just the latter.
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Post by: Ailaros
Well, how about this. Bullgryn are S7 Ap4, right? So are autocannons, right? Some people like those.
In this case, you spend 1 or 2 turns (depending on if they accept run orders, etc.) where you're not shooting, but then you arrive with 41 S7 Ap4 attacks.
If it gets set up right, a squad of bullgryns can wipe out an entire parking lot in a single charge. Especially since all those attacks hit on "BS4" and all hit rear armor.
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Post by: Mr.Omega
Blacksails wrote:Well, I know that for 260pts, I'd just rather have two extra russes, like a pair of Exterminators.
Bringing Bullgryn for the cover save isn't necessarily a bad idea, I'd just much prefer the AV saturation.
Also, I prefer tank hulls over the Ogryn models, but that's just my personal preference.
*Edit* And I know this isn't the first time someone has said this, your method of quoting could at least be improved by a different colour. Would make it pop and stand out a little more.
Like maybe some crimson...or chartreuse...or yellow...no, not yellow.
Exterminators are pretty terrible. Autocannons have never impressed me and I see no reason to ever bother with a light anti-tank weapon that is barely decent at its primary role, is useless for the most part against MC's, and extremely poor in comparison to other Russes in anti-infantry. Chant "all round, flexible, yaddi-daddi-da" all you want, that mantra is laughable.
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Post by: Blacksails
Mr.Omega wrote: Blacksails wrote:Well, I know that for 260pts, I'd just rather have two extra russes, like a pair of Exterminators.
Bringing Bullgryn for the cover save isn't necessarily a bad idea, I'd just much prefer the AV saturation.
Also, I prefer tank hulls over the Ogryn models, but that's just my personal preference.
*Edit* And I know this isn't the first time someone has said this, your method of quoting could at least be improved by a different colour. Would make it pop and stand out a little more.
Like maybe some crimson...or chartreuse...or yellow...no, not yellow.
Exterminators are pretty terrible. Autocannons have never impressed me and I see no reason to ever bother with a light anti-tank weapon that is barely decent at its primary role, is useless for the most part against MC's, and extremely poor in comparison to other Russes in anti-infantry. Chant "all round, flexible, yaddi-daddi-da" all you want, that mantra is laughable.
It was an example to illustrate I'd take Russ hulls over Bullgryns that happened to match the exact cost of your example.
I'd probably run some Vanquishers, or Eradicators, or Punishers, or Executioners if I had some divination slaves to go around.
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Post by: Mavnas
So, I just realized that with a senior officer to give the Bring it Down order, the quad gun isn't quite terrible against a Helldrake, if you're willing to forego the Interceptor so that it may be fired on your turn.
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Post by: rabidguineapig
Mavnas wrote:So, I just realized that with a senior officer to give the Bring it Down order, the quad gun isn't quite terrible against a Helldrake, if you're willing to forego the Interceptor so that it may be fired on your turn.
If you don't use interceptor, how long are the guys manning that gun or giving the orders going to last haha?
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Post by: Mavnas
You can move up a new squad to it and fire it.
Edit: When faced with a problem, throw more men at it! (Oppan guardsman style!)
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Post by: rabidguineapig
In theory that sounds great, in practice you won't always have that second unit and there's always the chance it torches the CCS you were going to use to give those orders. I'd rather try to intercept it and stop it from killing anyone than hope that it doesn't torch my guys just for the chance that a unit that likely has crap LD will pass a test so it can re-roll armor pen on 4 shots that are AP4...
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Post by: Mavnas
Well, you can always decide when it's done moving based on what's in range to get BBQd.
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Post by: rabidguineapig
That's true, under certain circumstances it could be definitely be useful but I just wouldn't rely on that as anything more than a hopeful risk.
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Post by: kir44n
 rabidguineapig wrote:Mavnas wrote:So, I just realized that with a senior officer to give the Bring it Down order, the quad gun isn't quite terrible against a Helldrake, if you're willing to forego the Interceptor so that it may be fired on your turn.
If you don't use interceptor, how long are the guys manning that gun or giving the orders going to last haha?
It could depend on where the Helldrake came is coming in on the board at. Because of the 90 degree turn limitation and the speed in which it can move, where your forces are on the board + where you see him having the hellturkey come in at can tell you alot. If it appears that its going for a different unit, save the shots until later. If its going for the quad gun, shoot the sucker and hope for the best.
The ease with which the ADL quad gun is either de-manned is a leading reason I take bastions for the quadguns instead of the ADL. The ADL may provide cover saves, but if I NEED AA, I would rather have it on a far more durable platform. Stick a single allied inquisitor inside a bastion with ADL, and you have an AV 14 psyker that has BS4 Twinlinked skyfire/interceptor, than can cast presciense measuring anywhere from the bastions hull.
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Post by: schadenfreude
 kir44n wrote: rabidguineapig wrote:Mavnas wrote:So, I just realized that with a senior officer to give the Bring it Down order, the quad gun isn't quite terrible against a Helldrake, if you're willing to forego the Interceptor so that it may be fired on your turn.
If you don't use interceptor, how long are the guys manning that gun or giving the orders going to last haha?
It could depend on where the Helldrake came is coming in on the board at. Because of the 90 degree turn limitation and the speed in which it can move, where your forces are on the board + where you see him having the hellturkey come in at can tell you alot. If it appears that its going for a different unit, save the shots until later. If its going for the quad gun, shoot the sucker and hope for the best.
The ease with which the ADL quad gun is either de-manned is a leading reason I take bastions for the quadguns instead of the ADL. The ADL may provide cover saves, but if I NEED AA, I would rather have it on a far more durable platform. Stick a single allied inquisitor inside a bastion with ADL, and you have an AV 14 psyker that has BS4 Twinlinked skyfire/interceptor, than can cast presciense measuring anywhere from the bastions hull.
Or just have conscripts and a primaris man the gun. Turkey comes on and roasts a half dozen or so conscripts who cares the turkey can't snipe the primaris. Next turn the squad passes bring it down on a 9.
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Post by: Mavnas
I also at some point considered putting a canonness on the gun 3+/4++ Eternal Warrior. Even if the turkey got a hit off, it would take awhile get through her 3 wounds.
One thing I didn't really see this book talk about is allied ICs in guard squads. Do they get to use their leadership to accept the orders? Do they get the benefits? RAW would seem to imply yes, precedent and common sense would imply no.
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Post by: Paradigm
Let's look at the options:
ADL: Greater coverage, same save, can take an upgraded weapon to be a threat at range, greater bonus for GtG, Fraction of the cost. Can still combine with Camo Netting, even on several tanks,and still winds up cheaper than ogryn.
Conscripts: easily made fearless, with Camo netting gives a 4+ cover save to vehicles behind it (same as Bullgryn), covers more area (board control), can be pretty shooty or play aggressively while still covering.
Infantry blob: as conscripts, but can take a bunch of Lascannons to be effective at range.
I think each of those adds a lot more than Bullgryn to the army, and generally for a cheaper cost.
To be, the Bullgryns have a conflicted role that relegates them from effectiveness. The Slabshield implies they want to be hanging back and used as mobile cover, which, while a great idea, makes them something of a dead weight in terms of killing power unless the enemy are coming to you (in which case you charge and then lose the covering ability anyway). The high S, T and Wounds suggest they want to be running in and smashing stuff, which they can do only marginally better than equal points of Ogryn, once you factor in Ripper Gun shooting pre-charge.
While, in both of these roles, Bullgryn seem OK, the issue is that they pay for both. If you're playing defensive, they aren't utilising the CC potential, and if you're playing aggressive, then you're not using the covering ability to maximum effect. As such, whichever way you slice it, you're losing some potential that is built into the base cost. You can, of course, swap the Slabshields for Maul+Shield, but then you're paying EVEN more to make them worse at one of those things they originally paid for to make them a bit better at the other. It's not 15ppm for the Maul swap, it's 15ppm+ whatever value one assigns to the Slabshield.
The only time I can see them being used over regular Ogryn is in front of an aggressive buffed (either in-codex or allied) blob, loaded on power axes and melta/flamer. The Bullgryn move up ahead, giving the 4+ cover, and hit a weak target on the enemy front line, opening up the way for the (hopefully relatively intact) blob to hit more valuable targets. Coversely, if the enemy deploy tough units in the front, the Bullgryn tie up that while the blob goes for the weaker elements.
Seems too expensive, though, when those points are another kitted Russ, a Manticore or another blob.
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Post by: Perfect Organism
Seems to me that the way to go with Bullgryn is to pack a bunch of cheap characters into the unit, preferably with low-T, but decent armour saves and plenty of wounds. Inquisitors look especially good for that. Keep the characters at the front, then divert anything which ignores their armour or threatens to ID them to the Bullgryn using LOS!
Take a couple of power-maul guys to take out vehicles, keep the others with slabshields and support them with short-ranged, slow-but-mobile units like punishers, armoured sentinels or pretty much any infantry without a heavy weapon. Maybe even a unit of ogryn with psykers following the bullgryn with their inquisitors and priests, plus a few melta/plasma veteran squads with camo gear to handle really tough targets.
Suddenly, the guard aren't all about sitting back and shooting; they become an aggressive horde, capable of pushing into the midfield while laying down lots of short-range firepower. Maybe not as efficient as lurking at maximum range and hoping to wipe the enemy off the field, but it's a different playstyle and possibly a fun one.
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Post by: Unit1126PLL
 Perfect Organism wrote:Seems to me that the way to go with Bullgryn is to pack a bunch of cheap characters into the unit, preferably with low-T, but decent armour saves and plenty of wounds. Inquisitors look especially good for that. Keep the characters at the front, then divert anything which ignores their armour or threatens to ID them to the Bullgryn using LOS!
Take a couple of power-maul guys to take out vehicles, keep the others with slabshields and support them with short-ranged, slow-but-mobile units like punishers, armoured sentinels or pretty much any infantry without a heavy weapon. Maybe even a unit of ogryn with psykers following the bullgryn with their inquisitors and priests, plus a few melta/plasma veteran squads with camo gear to handle really tough targets.
Suddenly, the guard aren't all about sitting back and shooting; they become an aggressive horde, capable of pushing into the midfield while laying down lots of short-range firepower. Maybe not as efficient as lurking at maximum range and hoping to wipe the enemy off the field, but it's a different playstyle and possibly a fun one.
This is what I was thinking as well. An attached cadre of good-armor-save characters (such as an IH supplement to attach 3 techmarines and one MotF) can also add to the durability and combat punch, as well as leadership.
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Post by: Comrade
If ogryns carried Power Axes rather then power mauls, they would be OK imo... nut no, they have AP4 power weapons.... which no one ever takes unless they are forced to.
Ogryns are over priced for the utility they provide, maybe at 30 points base they would be alright
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Post by: kir44n
I think one of the Ogryns core problems is that they are too specialized for their costs. Against certain enemies (orks, small to medium nids, Firewarriors that somehow didn't kill the ogryn before reaching close combat) they can do well. The problem is that means they are ill-suited for TAC lists due to their very specific nature. This doesn't mean they won't be good for fun games against above mentioned lists...but I don't think they'll be featured in the standard netbuilds we'll see in a few months time.
On the otherhand, I see a pretty good future for the reworked Deathstrike. I need a few more games to get a more accurate opinion, but it has been working well so far.
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Post by: Perfect Organism
 Comrade wrote:Ogryns are over priced for the utility they provide, maybe at 30 points base they would be alright
Pretty much. An ogryn has around six times the survivability of a guardsman, six times the firepower under ideal circumstances, but eight times the cost. Their main advantage is that they let you take a 300 point infantry unit which is actually practical to move around, but then they slapped a 100 point additional cost on top of that and made them fairly useless. It's a huge shame, because I really like the new ogryn models; at 35 points each, I'd take some. At 30 points each, I'd take as many as I could.
Maybe we'll get a dataslate formation which gives them some extra special rules. Giving them Furious Charge back and adding Feel No Pain would redeem them, although that seems like a lot to hope for.
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Post by: UlrikDecado
I like idea of Bullgryn as shock assault troop supported by priest and commisar. Delivered by chimera. Its just no option seems ideal to me. Make falanx with shield? Good, but the weapons itself are...mediocre. OK, drop falanx, use brute shields and...power mauls? OK, it looks fluffy, but power mauls are...mediocre at best. Damn! Why I cant have Bullgryns with axes or, better, power fists? And not deliberately "OK, this is good, so lets make them not so strong" solutions..
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Post by: Ailaros
Perfect Organism wrote:Pretty much. An ogryn has around six times the survivability of a guardsman, six times the firepower under ideal circumstances, but eight times the cost.
They gain other benefits as well. For example, they don't care about flamers, or blast weapons (like these wyverns everyone is raving about). They also have much better force concentration - it's going to be much more possible for 10 ogryn to get all their attacks in than 50 guardsmen. They also get hammer of wrath, which guardsmen never do, and they also have the ability to smush vehicles in close combat in a way where you'd have to give all those guardsmen krak grenades to counter for (so, there's where a lot of the points are made up).
The idea that having concentrated guardsmen has no value is only true if concentration has not value.
schadenfreude wrote:Or just have conscripts and a primaris man the gun. Turkey comes on and roasts a half dozen or so conscripts who cares the turkey can't snipe the primaris. Next turn the squad passes bring it down on a 9.
Lol.
Sir? Sir! Are you sure it's safe for us to be manning the quad gun, sir? Wouldn't that make us pretty big targets sir?
Sorry, can't hear you from all the way back here. Just keep manning the gun, conscript.
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Post by: Ratius
Quick Q: When taking Pask do you have to pay for the basic tank commander first and then Pask i.e. 30+40 points? Or just Pask at 40?
30489
Post by: Trickstick
 Ratius wrote:Quick Q: When taking Pask do you have to pay for the basic tank commander first and then Pask i.e. 30+40 points? Or just Pask at 40?
Pask is an upgrade to a normal tank commander, which needs to be purchased first.
83653
Post by: Mavnas
kir44n wrote:I think one of the Ogryns core problems is that they are too specialized for their costs. Against certain enemies (orks, small to medium nids, Firewarriors that somehow didn't kill the ogryn before reaching close combat) they can do well. The problem is that means they are ill-suited for TAC lists due to their very specific nature. This doesn't mean they won't be good for fun games against above mentioned lists...but I don't think they'll be featured in the standard netbuilds we'll see in a few months time.
On the otherhand, I see a pretty good future for the reworked Deathstrike. I need a few more games to get a more accurate opinion, but it has been working well so far.
Hammer Hand and rad grenade inquisitor bumps them up to S8. At that point they're really more of a vehicle killer or Multi-wound T5 or less killer. Though, at the cost for the unit, I'm not sure they're cost effective.
56122
Post by: Perfect Organism
Ailaros wrote:The idea that having concentrated guardsmen has no value is only true if concentration has not value.
Oh, absolutely. I don't think that concentration is worthless... just that it's not worth anything like the cost they are charging. Not just in points, but also in lost range, inability to use FRFSRF, lack of special weapons and vulnerability to instant death.
Like I said, at five points less per model or with a few decent special rules they would be pretty good.
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Post by: Valhalla130
Looking forward to reading more of this thread. I last played my IG around 2000. And I always lost with them. I'm looking forward to learning how to build a list and how to use that list to its full advantage.
10127
Post by: Happygrunt
Played my first game with AM today. Was 1500 points against an assault themed CSM army. Slaanesh/nurgle with lots of spawn and maulerfiends. Here are my thoughts:
The chimera nerf meant I was out of my tanks more often. This meant that I was moving in pairs and having my vets cover each other with the Chimeras providing support. Chimeras were acting as excellent APC.
Primaris pskyer + Executioner = awesome. Rerolling to hit on plasma cannons is a thing of beauty.
The new orders are FANTASTIC. Because I had to get out of my tanks to make use of all my guns, I found my self using shoot and run and ignore cover a lot. The precision shot order was also rad, although less effective than I would like.
CCS with three snipers, a banner and a boltgun with stealth was a good cheap CCS. But them behind an Aegis with a quadgun and had them anchor my backfield. Banner saved a couple times. Will probably try a different load out with more "punch" next time, although the banner will probably stay.
Overall, I am happy with the new book. Obviously, with this being my first outing, there are something that will change. I will probably be re-working my HQ slots to include command tanks, but I am very excited to see more of what I can do with this book.
46
Post by: alarmingrick
So if one were to run mech vets and not platoons, what besides primaris psykers would you put with them? Would it be worth the points to put priests too? I can see the benefit, but points wise the psykers are pushing the squads almost too high. Thoughts?
56122
Post by: Perfect Organism
 alarmingrick wrote:So if one were to run mech vets and not platoons, what besides primaris psykers would you put with them? Would it be worth the points to put priests too? I can see the benefit, but points wise the psykers are pushing the squads almost too high. Thoughts?
I wouldn't want to give veterans a priest, because that gives them fearless, which prevents them from going to ground.
Commissars don't add much once you already have the psyker's Ld. but I guess they will make extra sure that the unit doesn't break and add another bolter to the squad. Not really enough to justify the cost IMO.
Techpriests can keep the squad's transport alive a little longer and hop over to nearby tanks to buff them up. Could be a good choice if you don't have dedicated infantry support units for your tanks.
Inquisitors are a good alternative to psykers, but it's probably overkill to have both in one unit.
I'd generally stick with just putting one character in each veteran squad. They are too delicate to invest a massive number of points in. If I did go with two characters, the second one would probably be an enginseer.
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Post by: Razerous
I'm struggling to find a place for my Psykers. I have about 590 for troops (& an optional CCS) in a 1500pt army.
Can a Pysker use a LOS power on the unit or vehicle he is embarked with - as I've read on the FAQ that Pyskers cannot make use of the fire points for LOS power (except witchfire powers).
How many mechvets and/or Infantry platoon units would be suitable in 1500pts?
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Post by: Perfect Organism
Razerous wrote:Can a Pysker use a LOS power on the unit or vehicle he is embarked with - as I've read on the FAQ that Pyskers cannot make use of the fire points for LOS power (except witchfire powers).
Yes. Main rulebook, page 67, upper right, under the heading 'declare target'.
Razerous wrote:How many mechvets and/or Infantry platoon units would be suitable in 1500pts?
There's no easy answer, I'm afraid. I'd generally recommend anywhere from a quarter to half your points on troops. Maybe one platoon (~45 guys) and a couple of veteran squads. Depends how infantry-heavy you want to play.
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Post by: Biophysical
Still brainstorming about Bullgryn. What about 3 with hammer/shield upgrades and a priest in a Taurox or Chimera? 215 for the dudes plus transport cost. Flat out turn 1, get out turn 2, charge turn 3. You go after tanks and support units. You can soak a bit of fire, and if you actually get through you ought to do some damage.
10335
Post by: Razerous
Okay so here's my quandary with orders & Psykers. Psykers need to be on foot to benefit the best targets (Basilisk, leman russes, blobs) & orders only effect foot-based infantry.
However mobility is key & that is attained via either dedicated transport or a 6-man troop & vendettas.
So far I'm considering a hybrid approach, as even a minute sized platoon provides 3 units + that value 5man (& options for SWS's).
Plus orders either need quantity for IS (massed HWS/lasguns) or lots of specials. Could I rely on hard hitting CCS & PCS that buff themselves. CAN they buff themselves (via the command vehicle rule)??
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Post by: Paradigm
Biophysical wrote:Still brainstorming about Bullgryn. What about 3 with hammer/shield upgrades and a priest in a Taurox or Chimera? 215 for the dudes plus transport cost. Flat out turn 1, get out turn 2, charge turn 3. You go after tanks and support units. You can soak a bit of fire, and if you actually get through you ought to do some damage.
The problem here is that you're talking in the region of 250 points, and there's not a huge change they're going to make that back on tanks and support units. You can't hurt AV14, so Land Raiders and Monoliths are out (the tanks closest to recouping the cost), and support units tend to be fairly cheap. If you hit something like a tank squadron or can run a huge infantry unit off the board, it might be worth it (ironically, IG are the best target here) but otherwise you're not going to make a big enough dent to be worth it.
That said. this might be useful in a mass-mech charge, where you've got half a dozen Chimera/Taurox flat-outing to unload vets and a CCS in the enemy line. Rather than charging the biggest, baddest target, throw them at the biggest threat ( cc or shooting) to the vets to tie it up or kill it. Kind of an aggressive-defence tactic.
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Post by: Mr.Omega
Creedstar:
Mr.Omega wrote:HQ
Company Command Squad -183
-Creed
-Officer of the Fleet
-Camo Cloaks for the Vets
-Regimental Standard
Cypher, Lord of the Fallen -190
Primaris Psyker, Lvl1 x3 -150
Troops
Infantry Platoon -590
4x Infantry Squads with Meltaguns
Lascannon HWS
Lascannon HWS
Lascannon HWS
PCS, 1x Flamer
Veteran Squad -101
-Bolter
2x Plasma Gun
Heavy Flamer
Veteran Squad -101
-Bolter
2x Plasma Gun
Heavy Flamer
Fast Attack
Vendetta Gunship - 170
Vendetta Gunship - 170
Heavy Support
Wyvern
Wyvern
Wyvern
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
This list is probably hard to read, so allow me to elaborate.
Each Primaris Psyker goes in one of the Lascannon HWS, giving them LD9 and dishing out Prescience each turn. Creed then gives them the most suitable order, which will probably be Fire On My Target or Bring It Down! most of the time to massively amp their fire against MC's and vehicles. The orders are reliable thanks to the conferred LD9 on each HWS and Creed's special rule that lets him re-roll all failed orders.
To avoid being alpha-striked into oblivion, there are two counters I can employ - the first, is simply to concede giving out fire on the first turn with the HWS and walking them on, or out of cover, depending on the board. The second is to form a wall of Wyverns in front of the Creedstar to inhibit LOS/give cover saves. If a group of Wave Serpents wipes the Wyverns first turn, big deal - I lose only 195 points, and they no longer get the anti-penetrate gimmick when I retaliate with Vendettas, the Cypher blob and the Creedstar.
If I get first turn, then the Wyverns put out a blistering anti-infantry salvo, or at the very least force my opponent to reconsider his deployment and use of infantry.
Cypher goes with the Infantry Squad blob of 40 and outflanks them to grab backfield/midfield objectives, be a distraction and lay down additional AT/AMC/Anti-Infantry and be a pain in the ass. Unless the blob gets wiped in a single turn by an assault, Cypher can Hit and Run with an 83% chance of success to shoot several meltaguns and his own fire into the aggressors - the blob automatically regroups if routed because of ATSKNF, and even if they get routed Cypher's initiative 8 should make fleeing relatively easy.
The 40 man blob has a constant 5+ cover save in the open because Cypher confers Shrouded, and in even the crappiest cover you get 3+ cover- in hard cover, that's a 2+. MC's should at least take a wound against Cypher's attacks, or will have to challenge one of the weakling Sergeants before the Hit and Run.
The Veteran Squads go in the Vendettas, and sit there until either their fire is desperately needed, or they need to snatch an objective. They're designed to fulfill either role by blasting more holes in the hard stuff, and wiping light infantry off such objectives. If somehow, an alpha strike gets dangerously close to the Creedstar, a PCS with flamer and these Vets immediately move to deal with it, the latter by having their skimmers hover on to the board and disembark- easy, since Creed will be near my board edge.
To better all of the reserve based antics, the Officer of the Fleet can add to my reserves rolls.
Reposting from Army Lists.
Edit: Just realized you can't shove the Vets into the Vendetta, I need to rethink that bit. Suggestions?
83767
Post by: Stus67
So is there any point to taking Power Axes? It's 2/3 attacks at AP2 for 15 points, but whoever has it is still going last, which usually means they're dead before they can swing. Still better than a 25 point Power Fist, but I think I might just go back Chainswords because 15 points is too much for a Power Sword.
73480
Post by: ultimentra
Okay guys, so when taking an Enginseer, what is the best way to take him to the battlefield?
Theres a few options here-
1) In a Chimera attachd to vet squad or IS
This is great for giving PoTMS for a nearby Leman Russ. But not much else. He only repairs on a 5+, meaning that taking the repair option over PoTMS is really only viable when you don't have a target for the ability.
2) On foot with 3 Servitors in tow.
This makes him vulnerable, but it gives you options. If a Leman Russ gets a weapon knocked off, or a nearby tank has 1 hull point left, you may want to go for the repair which is now a 2+. But, he is slower this way so any fast tanks you might want to keep up with may be out of range of PoTMS.
I am kind of leaning towards the first option at the moment, because if you get a crew shaken or stunned result, which is 50/50 without AP modifiers, PoTMS can help with that, allowing the tank to fire its main gun at least with full BS. It can also boost the CC ability of that vet squad in a pinch.
What do you guys think?
EDIT-
3rd option) With a couple servitors in the back lines giving PoTMS to a Manticore or two for shooting two missiles and repairing any damage.. Or did this tactic get dismissed as illegal?
4820
Post by: Ailaros
I don't know if techpriests are worth it JUST for PotMS. On the one hand, it fails over 1/4 of the time, and on the other hand, well, I don't know if it's worth 40 points just to have the chance to give a russ split-fire. I feel like you've got to have a reasonable chance to run out and repair something to make it all that worthwhile.
70 points for a fix a hull point on a 2+ doesn't seem that bad. He's going to be fragile, of course, but he's also going to be very cheap, and if you can give your opponent more important things to shoot at, then he'll survive longer. Plus, a russ is rather big, which means a techpriest and at least a couple of servitors could hide completely out of LOS behind one.
They'd be especially useful to hide behind a baneblade too.
---
And no, PotMS doesn't let a vehicle shoot one weapon twice, nor does it overrule the manticore's limited amunition special rule. Specific trumps general, which means a rule specific to just the manticore trumps something from the special rules section of the rulebook.
---
Also, another small thing. Veteran sergeants can now take bolters, and the price for them went down to a measly 1 point. Especially given that everything else got 5+ points more expensive, is there something worthwhile to sergeants with bolters?
I mean, we're in 6th ed, so they DO get precise shot...
10127
Post by: Happygrunt
Ailaros wrote:
---
Also, another small thing. Veteran sergeants can now take bolters, and the price for them went down to a measly 1 point. Especially given that everything else got 5+ points more expensive, is there something worthwhile to sergeants with bolters?
I mean, we're in 6th ed, so they DO get precise shot...
They do, but one shot is just going to be LOS or ignored because it is a bolter.
I think that is a "trap" choice. Those 1 point upgrades add up and it adds very little to the squad.
4820
Post by: Ailaros
Not all models get access to LoS! Like the meltagunner in the squad. Also, not everybody doesn't care about Ap5.
1 point for a better than 1 in 6 chance per round of shooting to clip out a special weapon? I mean, if you had a blob of 30 dudes, 3 points is enough to give you a most expected result of a precise shot per round of shooting. With an Ap5 weapon.
Almost seems better than sniper rifles (well, against regular infantry).
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Post by: Happygrunt
Ailaros wrote:Not all models get access to LoS! Like the meltagunner in the squad. Also, not everybody doesn't care about Ap5.
1 point for a better than 1 in 6 chance per round of shooting to clip out a special weapon? I mean, if you had a blob of 30 dudes, 3 points is enough to give you a most expected result of a precise shot per round of shooting. With an Ap5 weapon.
Almost seems better than sniper rifles (well, against regular infantry).
Okay, sure, but those are very specific instances. You do have to hit and roll a six and then roll to wound on what is more than likely one shot.
I mean, I don't see an issue not taking bolters, but I only would if I had extra points or if I was building a CCS (my fluff rule of thumb is that the CO should have good equitment).
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Post by: Ailaros
Yes, I know odds are long for a single weapon, but that's why they're cheap, and you can take them in multiples.
I mean, you take that 30-man blob with three boltguns, and you shoot it at a CSM squad. There's a 1 in 6 chance per round of shooting that you snipe out their icon. Or, as mentioned, a special or heavy weapon out of the squad. Even if they have LoS!, most stuff only gets it on a 4+.
These aren't great odds, yes, but the buy in price is super cheap, and when it does happen, it can sometimes be a pretty big deal.
Plus, even without precise shot, it make sergeants quite a bit better against GEq. For one measly point.
10127
Post by: Happygrunt
Ailaros wrote:Yes, I know odds are long for a single weapon, but that's why they're cheap, and you can take them in multiples.
I mean, you take that 30-man blob with three boltguns, and you shoot it at a CSM squad. There's a 1 in 6 chance per round of shooting that you snipe out their icon. Or, as mentioned, a special or heavy weapon out of the squad. Even if they have LoS!, most stuff only gets it on a 4+.
These aren't great odds, yes, but the buy in price is super cheap, and when it does happen, it can sometimes be a pretty big deal.
Plus, even without precise shot, it make sergeants quite a bit better against GEq. For one measly point.
You may have a point with blobs. I run mech vets, so the one point for a bolter really doesn't make any sense. 
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Post by: RaptorsTalon
I see your point Ailaros, and I would totally agree that it is an improvement, but I would suggest it would more be as a way to fill points when you're almost finished with the list building, rather than as a core choice. To me, the chance of actually doing something useful seems too low to make it a first pick for my list.
Just as an example, here's the maths against a MEQ squad, trying to kill their special weapon etc:
Precision Shot: 1/6
Wound: 1/2
Fail Armour: 1/3
Total: 1/36
Supposing you shoot like this four times a game on average, you have a total 4/36 wounds. Taking the cost of the sniped model as 25pts for the example, 4/36 x 25 = 2.7pts
Compared to a laspistol statistic of:
Precision Shot: 1/6
Wound: 1/3
Fail Armour: 1/3
Total: 1/54
4/54 x 25 = 1.85pts
So the one point upgrade gives you a 0.85 point damage increase. Of course these figures are approximate as boltguns can rapid fire and some sniped targets could be worth a lot more, but its a starting point. I think, on average, you are going to about make your points back for the upgrade, but in an individual game, you could just as easily do nothing as kill a key model in the enemy unit.
83767
Post by: Stus67
 Stus67 wrote:So is there any point to taking Power Axes? It's 2/3 attacks at AP2 for 15 points, but whoever has it is still going last, which usually means they're dead before they can swing. Still better than a 25 point Power Fist, but I think I might just go back Chainswords because 15 points is too much for a Power Sword.
Anybody?
42382
Post by: Unit1126PLL
 ultimentra wrote:Okay guys, so when taking an Enginseer, what is the best way to take him to the battlefield?
Theres a few options here-
1) In a Chimera attachd to vet squad or IS
This is great for giving PoTMS for a nearby Leman Russ. But not much else. He only repairs on a 5+, meaning that taking the repair option over PoTMS is really only viable when you don't have a target for the ability.
2) On foot with 3 Servitors in tow.
This makes him vulnerable, but it gives you options. If a Leman Russ gets a weapon knocked off, or a nearby tank has 1 hull point left, you may want to go for the repair which is now a 2+. But, he is slower this way so any fast tanks you might want to keep up with may be out of range of PoTMS.
I am kind of leaning towards the first option at the moment, because if you get a crew shaken or stunned result, which is 50/50 without AP modifiers, PoTMS can help with that, allowing the tank to fire its main gun at least with full BS. It can also boost the CC ability of that vet squad in a pinch.
What do you guys think?
EDIT-
3rd option) With a couple servitors in the back lines giving PoTMS to a Manticore or two for shooting two missiles and repairing any damage.. Or did this tactic get dismissed as illegal?
Last game I set up a firebase with my Tank Commander squadron and some infantry platoons in a large ruin. My Enginseer setup was thusly:
One enginseer with 5x servitors, 2 with Plasma Cannons. Two more enginseers attached to that squad as ICs. (Probably unnecessary, but it was hilarious).
One Atlas recovery vehicle.
That's six re-rollable repair rolls on a 2+, three POTMS handouts, and two plasma-cannon servitors who did spectacularly receiving the Fire on My Target order.
45133
Post by: ClockworkZion
Stus67 wrote: Stus67 wrote:So is there any point to taking Power Axes? It's 2/3 attacks at AP2 for 15 points, but whoever has it is still going last, which usually means they're dead before they can swing. Still better than a 25 point Power Fist, but I think I might just go back Chainswords because 15 points is too much for a Power Sword.
Anybody?
Generally speaking I have to say "not really." I mean, you might get some utility out of the axe in a blob, but then you're paying points just in case the blob is on combat, whuch may never actually happen.
4820
Post by: Ailaros
Foot guard got a little better, but power blobs actually got worse. They gained a source of fearless, but also gained more expensive power weapons, while gaining nothing to fix the structural problems that power blobs have had since 6th edition.
Current thinking is focusing more on getting lots of cheap non-power attacks in than trying to get expensive upgrades on non-hidden models to stick around for a battle of attrition.
83653
Post by: Mavnas
Ailaros wrote:I don't know if techpriests are worth it JUST for PotMS. On the one hand, it fails over 1/4 of the time, and on the other hand, well, I don't know if it's worth 40 points just to have the chance to give a russ split-fire. I feel like you've got to have a reasonable chance to run out and repair something to make it all that worthwhile.
Why would it fail? There's 0 checks involved. In fact, you could use it as a failsafe if one of your tank commanders fails to issue his fire-splitting order. Actually, now that I read it again, I think the order must be given first and that shooting happens right away, which means that it's only useable as a failsafe here not to give Pask and friends 3 different targets. Honestly Pask would benefit most from it in a punisher, but you can't take him without paying a second tank tax that then can't be fully split from him while still splitting his guns... sigh. I think a lot of my theoretically awesome setups of the last few days fall apart here unless someone can think of a good way to make the engineseer do his thing at the beginning of the phase. (Order to his unit that causes it to shoot immediately? Would that work?)
70 points for a fix a hull point on a 2+ doesn't seem that bad. He's going to be fragile, of course, but he's also going to be very cheap, and if you can give your opponent more important things to shoot at, then he'll survive longer. Plus, a russ is rather big, which means a techpriest and at least a couple of servitors could hide completely out of LOS behind one.
You could also if you wanted to take an inquisitorial henchmen band with servitors in it and attach it to the tech priest, but I think they would technically mindlock if you didn't also throw in the inquisitor. Probably not worth it, but that unit could contain some 3++ crusaders then.
4820
Post by: Ailaros
Oh, nevermind. I thought it was one of those "pass a leadership test" things.
And you can take up to 4 squads of russes, if having separate targets were a deal, then just split them up into separate units. Plus, the tank commander already has a split-fire order that they have access to. And generally you're going to want to be shooting a couple of russes at a single target anyways. 40 points just to make a lascannon point somewhere else? That's the cost of 4 lascannons somewhere else that can also point at different targets.
Like, it's not a bad upgrade, but I don't see how it's worth 40 points on its own.
83653
Post by: Mavnas
Yeah, I always envisioned a single one for Pask in a Punisher. You may have seen the kind of damage you can do to light vehicles. Being able to split it from a couple melta sponsons and the lascannon would net you two dead vehicles.
edit: The problem is if you could also split the rest of the unit off, it would kill 50% more vehicles per turn.
4820
Post by: Ailaros
But pask's punisher cannon has rending. Anything you're going to want to point the multimeltas and lascannon at you're also going to want to point pask's punisher cannon against.
And, as mentioned, you can always split things up. Take a MM/LC vanquisher and a bolter boat punisher and put them in different squads. Now they can always fire on different targets, rather than having to hope that a techpriest survives.
42382
Post by: Unit1126PLL
Mavnas wrote:Yeah, I always envisioned a single one for Pask in a Punisher. You may have seen the kind of damage you can do to light vehicles. Being able to split it from a couple melta sponsons and the lascannon would net you two dead vehicles.
edit: The problem is if you could also split the rest of the unit off, it would kill 50% more vehicles per turn.
you can with the squadron's split fire order from Pask. Automatically Appended Next Post: Ailaros wrote:But pask's punisher cannon has rending. Anything you're going to want to point the multimeltas and lascannon at you're also going to want to point pask's punisher cannon against.
And, as mentioned, you can always split things up. Take a MM/ LC vanquisher and a bolter boat punisher and put them in different squads. Now they can always fire on different targets, rather than having to hope that a techpriest survives.
Right, but a vanquisher plus a paskisher can kill 3 vehicles per turn instead of 2.
83653
Post by: Mavnas
Ailaros wrote:But pask's punisher cannon has rending. Anything you're going to want to point the multimeltas and lascannon at you're also going to want to point pask's punisher cannon against.
And, as mentioned, you can always split things up. Take a MM/ LC vanquisher and a bolter boat punisher and put them in different squads. Now they can always fire on different targets, rather than having to hope that a techpriest survives.
That's true if you fire the cannon at heavy infantry. If you fire the punisher's canon at AV10-11, you want all the other guns on something else because that thing will be dead before they fire, and with Pask rerolling armor pen, there's a decent chance a couple melta shots and lascannon will erase something else even if not in melta range.
Still I suppose with the split, you get the choice of fire all of Pask's guns at target A, fire squad's guns at target B or fire all the guns but the gatling cannon at target A then fire the gatling cannon at either A or B. (I wonder if you have to choose the target before or after the other guns are shot... I'm thinking before?) The good news is this guarantees your ability to hit two targets even if he fails his check for the order (because in that case he doesn't immediately shoot and the engineseer can do his thing.)
So, I'd say it's worth it on just Pask because his gatling cannon ability is just that awesome, not so much on other things.
The other thing someone pointed out was the 3 Engineseers with 3 servo-arm servitors. I think that highly situational, but in a list that's very tank heavy, being able to regain up to 3 HP per turn on 2+ would be worth 150 points. Actually... if you have one the guard super heavies or some knights.
And keep in mind the Engineseer can make an attack at S6 AP2 or two at S4 AP2 if you hide him in the bubblewrap blob around your tank. Automatically Appended Next Post:  Unit1126PLL wrote:Mavnas wrote:Yeah, I always envisioned a single one for Pask in a Punisher. You may have seen the kind of damage you can do to light vehicles. Being able to split it from a couple melta sponsons and the lascannon would net you two dead vehicles.
edit: The problem is if you could also split the rest of the unit off, it would kill 50% more vehicles per turn.
you can with the squadron's split fire order from Pask.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ailaros wrote:But pask's punisher cannon has rending. Anything you're going to want to point the multimeltas and lascannon at you're also going to want to point pask's punisher cannon against.
And, as mentioned, you can always split things up. Take a MM/ LC vanquisher and a bolter boat punisher and put them in different squads. Now they can always fire on different targets, rather than having to hope that a techpriest survives.
Right, but a vanquisher plus a paskisher can kill 3 vehicles per turn instead of 2.
The problem is that the order must be given at the beginning of your shooting phase and results in immediate shooting attack. This means, unless the engineseer can do his thing at the beginning of the shooting phase as well, he's giving the unit PotMS too late in the phase. I could see though, if the engineseer is in a unit that's ordered to make an immediate shooting attack himself, he could use his power before Pask gives his order, but now there's a lot of things that can go horribly wrong. Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually, this brings up another point.
A Pasknisher that uses PotMS to split its fire rather than the order, doesn't have to fire before most of your other things fire. If you use the order, you have to fire it before any un-ordered unit fires. This might matter... like if you have other anti-vehicle tools that will pop open a transport and you want Pask to mop up the contents. For example if you have a Vendetta with no air targets to shoot at, it will never fire before units that take orders fire.
4820
Post by: Ailaros
Unit1126PLL wrote:Right, but a vanquisher plus a paskisher can kill 3 vehicles per turn instead of 2.
Sure.
I don't know if that's going to be the best decision, though. I mean, if you had a vanquisher cannon with its lascannon in range, is it going to be better to fire one gun at one target and the other at the other? It seems like the risk of overkill for firing both at the same target is going to be less bad than the risk of underkill by possibly just throwing a single hull point off of two different vehicles.
I mean, it's a better decision when it's a better decision, but it isn't always the right move, which you have to pay 40 points for whether you use it or not.
66847
Post by: HeraldofDisease
I feel like Bullgryns are kinda nice. Personally anyway. I don't know if its wishful thinking on my part but what is everyone elses opinions?
694
Post by: kir44n
To Ailoros on splitting a Vanquishers Main Gun & Lascannon, I agree that splitting the guns might not be best. I will point out that while the Vanquisher can easily pen a vehicle, at AP 2 it only has a 33% chance to explode a vehicle. If I'm using a Vanquisher, I personally want the vehicle dead dead dead, not immoblized or having lost a weapon. I'm not sure if splitting the shots for a 33% chance on two vehicles is the best idea.
I will say that a Paskisher (I do like that, whomever came up with it) with a hull Lascannon & Multimelta's is a fun idea. it gives you a platform that won't do as good vs med/light infantry, but will do far better wounding against MEQ/TEQ and Monstrous Creatures. Hell, a Paskisher at that loadout has a good chance to kill in one round of shooting most MCs. It may only be a 24" range, but if you're shielding pask with the other 2 tanks in his squadron, you should be able to gib an MC or termy squad something aweful
20677
Post by: NuggzTheNinja
Stus67 wrote: Stus67 wrote:So is there any point to taking Power Axes? It's 2/3 attacks at AP2 for 15 points, but whoever has it is still going last, which usually means they're dead before they can swing. Still better than a 25 point Power Fist, but I think I might just go back Chainswords because 15 points is too much for a Power Sword.
Anybody?
In a 50 man blob with 5 Sergeants with axes, only one is going to step up to a challenge. The rest are there to lay the smack down. They're still worth taking.
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Post by: Ailaros
Power blobs aren't any less dead.
The reason why we're starting to talk about blobs again is because lasguns can now get precise shot and plasma guns can get tank hunters and FRF lasguns can get prescience. It's the bonus to infantry squad shooting that's made foot guard stronger.
---
Oh, another thing that I missed until just today. You can no longer take dual plasma pistols. Not anywhere.
In the armory it says "may replace laspistol with", and in those places where there isn't a laspistol, like commissars, it says in their entry things like "may replace bolt pistol with".
Plasma pistols just got prohibitively expensive, but even if they hadn't, it's strange that everyone lost the ability to go akimbo with them.
82422
Post by: Zengu
Has anyone took the armored sentinels for a drive yet? I'm thinking they'd be good plasma boats because the opponent would be focused on the wave of chimera/ troops and av14 coming there way. Allowing the sentinels to launch plasma shots at important things.
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Post by: l0k1
Did I misread something or did they restrict combined squads to infantry squads only?
8218
Post by: Raxmei
 l0k1 wrote:Did I misread something or did they restrict combined squads to infantry squads only?
That's how it works, just like it did before.
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Post by: Perfect Organism
Why would you pay for a power weapon on a sergeant when you can take a priest for only a few points more? I'd rather keep the sergeants cheap and use them to handle unwinnable challenges. Maybe give them a boltgun and melta bombs.
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Post by: MrMoustaffa
I'm really hating this codex. It's making me want to play IG again.
I don't think I would be going full crazy and charging the enemy with a ton of guys on turn 1, but I would definitely be packing blobs with priests, commissars, etc. to use as a counterattack element that the objective holding platoon can use to finish off something that gets too close. I may chuck a 25 point commissar or priest in a unit of 50 conscripts and just chuck them at the enemy to eat fire too. 175pts for a unit that the opponent has to deal with if they want to get anything done is pretty cool.
Back that up with an allied Stormtrooper detachment deepstriking in to help snag objectives, and a large amount of russes backing up the infantry would be a lot of fun to try.
Plus, I'm surprised I'm not seeing more love for Enginseers. They allow Russ squadrons to be a lot more flexible with the Power of the Machine spirit ability. Having that guaranteed split fire ability as in addition to the order the tank commander has is nice, and it can be used on non HQ squadrons as well. On top of that, you're paying a mere 10pt extra for the ability to repair tanks, hide the character in a blob that's probably already guarding your tanks anyways, and give units like conscripts a good LD of 8 if you don't feel like using a Commissar/priest on them. If I get back in, I'll probably always have at least one around when I'm using more than a couple of russes.
Right now I'm waiting on somebody to make a battlescribe file for the codex so I can play with lists more easily. I already have one I made for the stormtrooper mini dex, it's just the IG book takes a lot more work and I just don't have the time right now to put one together. I hate using pen and paper since the super flexible nature of IG lists means I'm constantly switching units around and options.
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Post by: BlaxicanX
Honestly, you don't even need to put them in a blob. An Enginseer and a couple of servitors can easily be hidden behind the hull of a Russ. Since the tanks can only move 6'' anyway, you can spend the entire game huddling the enginseer behind your tanks. lol
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Post by: koooaei
Power weapons have become better taking into consideration easy access to Zealot and prescience. I think it justifies this small price increase.
Priests and comissars are awesome. 3 pts conscripts are a steal. Now you can have 50 fearless scoring bodies for 175 pts. The only thing they're afraid of is sniping out characters but i think that if the enemy wastes his barrage on conscripts - they've allready payed for themselves. Besides, you can get Lord comissar in there for 2 extra wounds and 2+ look outs.
Yesterday i've seen a game with 2*30 platoons with 2 power axes and a couple meltabombz, 2*50 conscripts, CCS with master of ordnance in chimera, 3 priests, 1 comissar - 1000 pts - playing vs tau - 12 fw with fireblade, 2*6 fw, riptide, sniper drones, 3*stealth team with burst cannons, 3*crysis with plazmas and flamers and piranha.
Know that joke about ig?
- Commander, intelligence reports that enemy can't swim.
- Good. Drown them in bodies!
That's exactly what happened. Fearless blobs are truly awesome. Ig just marched across the field shooting down everything and stabbing lucky survivors with bayonetes. Yep, the lists were not 'optimised' to the max, but it was so on both sides. Tau didn't have broadsides while ig didn't have their mighty russes and artillery. Ig player didn't spread his enormous platoons. At all. The turn piranha arrived, it killed like 20 guards and proceeded doing around so every next. Riptide killed minimum 10 every turn. But it still wasn't enough.
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Post by: Mavnas
 BlaxicanX wrote:Honestly, you don't even need to put them in a blob. An Enginseer and a couple of servitors can easily be hidden behind the hull of a Russ. Since the tanks can only move 6'' anyway, you can spend the entire game huddling the enginseer behind your tanks. lol
In the blob they also add 2 S5 AP2 or 1 S6 AP1 attack and buff its leadership.
Has anyone thought about allying with Raven Guard and outflanking blobs? Should be able to take a Librarian and Techpriest and attach them each to a blob. It would make getting to the enemy's deployment zone, AKA, your second deployment zone a lot easier. With a 50 man blob, you can string a thin line of guys back towards your zone to put the unit in psyker buff/order. At 2" spacing, that's 4 guys per foot of distance away from command squads (though they'd have to be on the board edge you just outflanked from).
40823
Post by: wildboar
With the profile for the Emperors Benediction including Precision Shot that can only be taken by a unit capable of obtaining Precision Shots would you say this pistol always hits who you like in a squad?
Reading the wording for Precision Shots on pg 63 would lead me to believe that is the case also.
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Post by: DOOMONYOU
Has anyone tried Kurovs Aquilla? I tried it in a game and it payed its points back many times.
Nestled a CCS in between HWT, a russ, veterans and several other squads so they all got the PE buff. It cuts down the need for prescience,
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Post by: RaptorsTalon
What's peoples opinion of heavy weapons teams in mech vet squads?
Personally, I don't see the point in using them as the chimera only gets two fire points, which special weapons already use, but I was wondering if anyone else has come up with a way for them to be useful.
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Post by: Biophysical
I don't see any reason to use them. You probably want to move that unit anyway.
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Post by: kir44n
If they ever gave reletless to units riding inside of chimeras, sure. Right now though having to snapshot HW's on a chimera that should be moving every turn is kind of a waste.
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Post by: Biophysical
Just for the sake of thoroughness, I'm trying to analyze options without my normal Guard preconceived notions. Looking at Infantry Platoon options, at least on Heavy Weapon choice may have changed enough to merit some additional consideration.
The Heavy Bolter. Yes, it's the same price as an Autocannon, and that's just dumb, but it gets that extra shot. The old argument was that the range and strength of the AC made it pretty much always better than the HB. The new Fire on My Target order and the changing meta make the HB a little more valuable, I think. A shooty blob of 3 squads with Heavy Bolters makes a good light-infantry killer. You'd use this sort of squad to clear objectives and small squads manning Quad Guns. It also can hold your own objective (you can plant the HB teams and move lasguns/special weapons into range).
225 points for a triple HB triple plasma, triple bolter blob
Vs. T3 4+
Fire on My Target
9 HB shots ignoring cover: 3.75 wounds,
18 lasgun shots ignoring cover: 2.25 wounds
3 Plasma shots ignoring cover: 1.25 wounds
7.25 total wounds
FRFSRF
9 HB shots = 3.75 wounds out of cover, 1.88 wounds with 4+ cover/1.25 with 3+ cover/ 0.625 with 2+ cover
36 lasgun shots = 4.5 wounds/3 with 3+ cover/1.5 with 2+
3 Plasma Gun shots: 1.25 wounds in the open, 0.625 wounds in 4+ cover, 0.42 wounds in 3+ cover, 0.21 wounds in 2+ cover
Total: 9.5 in the open, 7 in 4+ cover, 4.67 in 3+, 2.04 in 2+ cover
Punisher w/ Heavy Bolters (180 points)
Main Gun + Heavy Bolters
Open: 4.17 + 3.75 = ~8 kills
4+ cover: 4.17 + 1.88 = ~6 kills
3+ cover: 2.78 + 1.25 = ~ 4 kills
2+ cover: 1.39 +0.65 = ~2 kills
Eradicator with Heavy Bolters (140 points)
or
Hellhound (125)
You basically kill most of the models that fit under the template. The Hellhound is reliable, but the Eradicator is tough. Thinking about it this way, you may consider leaving the HB sponsons off the Eradicator and just take your bargain basement AV14 tank.
Conclusions: For digging stuff out of cover, a light infantry platoon doesn't do too badly for a small premium over a Punisher. It may do substantially worse for the points vs. Hellhound or Eradicator, but the performance of those tanks are somewhat more dependent on the displacement of the enemy and luck (for the Eradicator). A platoon based unit for this role can do reasonably well for the points because of the scoring ability, and if the unused Heavy Support or Fast Attack slot is used for some other valuable purpose.
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Post by: UlrikDecado
Im thinking about supporting Leman Russ for my army... basic coneption is one backbone blob and few vets and scions in chimeras and tauroxes, Basilisk, Hellhound and (maybe) Vendetta...and now Im thinking about two variants - Vanquisher and Executioner.
First thought was Vanquisher but I have 2 LC in blob, probably another one or two in the remaining infantry, hellhound has MM, Taurox carries missile launcher with kraks...even without Vendetta it seems to me like enough for dedicated anti-tank. And Executioner has 1) amazing turret  2) drops three plasma blasts which seems to me better... but still... Vanquisher with two plasma sponsons... or Executioner with two plasma sponsons and hull LC? Or just plain Executioner? So many questions...
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Post by: Paradigm
If you're taking just one Russ, , I'd default to either a LC/PC Vanquisher (this one has never let me down) if you need to take out heavy targets, or a 3xHB Exterminator for lighter targets.
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Post by: kir44n
 UlrikDecado wrote:Im thinking about supporting Leman Russ for my army... basic coneption is one backbone blob and few vets and scions in chimeras and tauroxes, Basilisk, Hellhound and (maybe) Vendetta...and now Im thinking about two variants - Vanquisher and Executioner.
First thought was Vanquisher but I have 2 LC in blob, probably another one or two in the remaining infantry, hellhound has MM, Taurox carries missile launcher with kraks...even without Vendetta it seems to me like enough for dedicated anti-tank. And Executioner has 1) amazing turret 2) drops three plasma blasts which seems to me better... but still... Vanquisher with two plasma sponsons... or Executioner with two plasma sponsons and hull LC? Or just plain Executioner? So many questions...
I don't think the Vanquisher synergizes well with the plasma sponsons. Sure it will help you against terminators & light vehicles, but your Lascannon & main gun will deal with those just fine. Throw in the extra cost and gets hot chance, I feel the Multi-melta is a more solid choice. The meltas give your more AP2 like the plasma, but are cheaper, higher-strength, and hit more reliably than a scattering small blast. Plus the melta will ID T4 models while the plasma will not.
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Post by: RaptorsTalon
For Leman Russ tanks, what do you think about pairing a Pasknisher (2x MM, HB) with an Eradicator (3x HB) for HQ and then taking a Vanquisher (LC, 2x MM) in HS?
The Pasknisher and Eradicator can either chew through infantry or split fire to allow the Pasknisher to break open transports and the Eradicator to kill the contents.
The Vanquisher is then very simply antitank, designed to deal with higher AV targets or targets at longer range.
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Post by: Ailaros
koooaei wrote:Power weapons have become better taking into consideration easy access to Zealot and prescience. I think it justifies this small price increase.
Umm, but priests already gave out rerolls to hit because they had Hatred. The only difference Zealot gives is fearless. Meanwhile, prescience only lets you reroll failed hits, which priests have always been able to do, and without a psychic check.
Mechvets are still a defensive weapon - driving up to whatever is threatening something else and then spilling a bunch of short-range special weapons on them.
Heavy weapons, meanwhile, give the mechvet squad something to do if your opponent isn't racing CC units towards your russes (or whatever). I used to give my mechvets lascannons, and I still would.
Biophysical wrote:The old argument was that the range and strength of the AC made it pretty much always better than the HB.
Well, the range wasn't so much of a deal, as it was would you rather have +2S or +1A. The fact that you were more likely to damage vehicles made that +2S better.
That advantage did get diluted a little bit with 6th ed's switch to hull points, but it wasn't enough - you still needed more of a reason to take that extra shot. That extra reason which you now have - it works better with orders.
Heavy bolters, for example make better use of monster hunters, as it makes the heavy bolter and autocannon basically the same against most monstrous creatures. They're also more likely to force a pinning check with the pinning order, and they're more likely to be able to put a S5 Ap4 precise shot on a meltagunner or a banner/icon bearer, or whatever.
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Post by: Biophysical
I was just looking at denying cover, but you make a good point about the other orders also. Combined with an increased prevalence of Xenos, I might start running them more often in infantry squads.
In addition, I think the 6th ed movement rules helped Heavy Bolters in a way I never really noticed. They have pretty much the same target as lasguns, so you want to move to get the lasguns in range. Previously, that meat a turn of giving up HB shots to get your lasguns in position. Now, you can move most of the lasguns and special weapons to be in range of the front of your opponent's deployment zone and keep the HB teams standing still to put your shots out first turn. Now from the get-go everybody can fire.
56122
Post by: Perfect Organism
 RaptorsTallon wrote:What's peoples opinion of heavy weapons teams in mech vet squads?
Personally, I don't see the point in using them as the chimera only gets two fire points, which special weapons already use, but I was wondering if anyone else has come up with a way for them to be useful.
I think you should always look at the Chimera as a temporary boost for mech-vets, not a permanent feature. They are too easily blown up to build around them. Whether they will have any use for a Heavy weapon once they are on foot is another question, but I wouldn't dismiss anything on the basis that you can't use it in the Chimera.
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Post by: Ailaros
You can use a heavy weapon from a chimera, though.
Back in 4th ed, my favorite chimera setup was 2x heavy bolters + heavy stubber + PIS with grenade launcher and heavy bolter. It was my little dakka box.
Of course, now we have punishers, but I digress...
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Post by: Mavnas
RaptorsTallon wrote:For Leman Russ tanks, what do you think about pairing a Pasknisher (2x MM, HB) with an Eradicator (3x HB) for HQ and then taking a Vanquisher ( LC, 2x MM) in HS?
The Pasknisher and Eradicator can either chew through infantry or split fire to allow the Pasknisher to break open transports and the Eradicator to kill the contents.
The Vanquisher is then very simply antitank, designed to deal with higher AV targets or targets at longer range.
You can't shoot at the contents of a transport with the rest of the unit because the attacks happen at the same time.
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Post by: Ailaros
Yeah, and that's really, really, REALLY important.
If someone declares they're using PotMS, you have to make sure that they declare both targets before they make their first die roll.
You can't roll against your primary target, whiff horribly, and then say "well, I guess I'll shoot my PotMS at it too". The shooting happens simultaneously, not sequentially.
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Post by: TheCustomLime
So, is there any purpose to the Taurox\Prime or would I be better served by a Chimera?
801
Post by: buddha
Since Pask is a character is there any reason to think that he doesn't benefit from precision shot?
With a prescienced buffed punisher I'm thinking he might be perfect for taking out otherwise hard to reach characters (but themselves squishy) in deathstars such as grimoire holders or tigarius.
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Post by: Mavnas
He can do that, but keep in mind ICs get a 2+ LoS! If you twin link the punisher's gun and go full HB an heavy stubber you still only get 4-5 precise shots mostly at AP -. Good for making sure special weapons die though.
4820
Post by: Ailaros
Wait, if Pask is a character, that means his russ gets a 4+ LoS!
interesting...
34243
Post by: Blacksails
Well, both Pask and the normal commander are characters. Not Independent, but characters nonetheless.
Interesting indeed.
I have no clue how normal character rules would apply.
71953
Post by: Tactical_Genius
Ailaros wrote:Wait, if Pask is a character, that means his russ gets a 4+ LoS!
interesting...
LOS! requires a wound, and vehicles cannot be wounded.
4820
Post by: Ailaros
touche
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Post by: tomjoad
But that get's into the arena of whether or not Ignores Cover should work v vehicles, and most people seem to agree that it does now.
Still, from a Forging the Narrative view point, being able to LOS with Pask DOES seem mighty silly.
34243
Post by: Blacksails
So I got a game in with my buddy who runs Ravenwing. My list consisted of two melta vet squads, a plasma command squad, and three executioners with hull heavy bolters. Oh, and a single Primaris running prescience.
I had three chimeras and three russes with a lot of AP2, where he had two 6-man squads, a three man squad, a single attack multi-melta bike, a typhoon speeder and Sammy.
I eeked out a win, with neither of us grabbing any objectives and me coming out with Slay the warlord and First blood, while he got Linebreaker. Game ended with his single remaining biker in CC with my company commander, and one untouched Russ. Three models on the table.
As for the plasma boats, I don't run sponsons as an aesthetic choice, and the hull heavy bolter was there because its glued in, but I was pleasantly surprised. Prescience helped mitigate what would have undoubtedly been a few extra gets hot rolls, and in the end, only ended up stripping two HPs; one from two different russes.
They did most of the heavy lifting that game, and I was reminded of the pitfalls of small blasts against an opponent spread out or conga lined. Most of my shots were doing only 1 wound each time, but it worked out okay considering his low body count.
Mechvets feel mostly the same, though the lack of fire points hurt in one or two occasions, forcing me to get out and brave some bolter rounds. The orders would have been nice if I passed any of my rolls late game. I also rolled perils on turn 1; my first time ever using a psychic power in my history of 40k and I roll perils right off the bat. The psyker recovered and went on to cast Prescience successfully for the next four turns.
All in all, I was pleased with how my list performed. I have now officially sold my entire army and re-building from the ground up, so I'm excited to build exactly what I want for this book.
I would recommend always bringing at least one prescience slave for the opportunities it affords you, and the Executioner without sponsons is fairly survivable, especially with prescience. I'd probably run hull lascannons though if I did it again.
83653
Post by: Mavnas
 tomjoad wrote:
But that get's into the arena of whether or not Ignores Cover should work v vehicles, and most people seem to agree that it does now.
Still, from a Forging the Narrative view point, being able to LOS with Pask DOES seem mighty silly.
Maybe. If they were in fast vehicles I could totally see it. In heavies I have visions of Ships of the Line in PotBS maneuvering to force the enemy to split their firepower, but I think that's better represented by normal movement and using the other tank to block shots.
71953
Post by: Tactical_Genius
tomjoad wrote:
But that get's into the arena of whether or not Ignores Cover should work v vehicles, and most people seem to agree that it does now.
Still, from a Forging the Narrative view point, being able to LOS with Pask DOES seem mighty silly.
Most people agree on it from a HYWPI perspective, myself included, with regards to ignores cover, but very few think so from a RAW perspective. I would suggest viewing the AM thread in YMDC for this though.
83653
Post by: Mavnas
Was th at psyker ML1?
34243
Post by: Blacksails
In reference to my post?
Yes.
83653
Post by: Mavnas
Seems like an inquisitor is still much better unless you're taking ML2. Higher ld, extra wound, better armor, and doesn't get executed by commissars.
34243
Post by: Blacksails
Mavnas wrote:
Seems like an inquisitor is still much better unless you're taking ML2. Higher ld, extra wound, better armor, and doesn't get executed by commissars.
If we're talking purely competitive, sure.
I don't want to bring allies though. I don't want to shell out for a (legal) Inquisition book just to bring a slightly better option, when I can stay in-book for largely the same effect. Its also less to carry around, the references are on one page, and there's no confusion for my opponent.
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Post by: Raxmei
Probably been pointed out before, but tank commanders being characters means they can make precision shots. Pask in a Punisher with all the bolters would be rolling on average just under five sixes a turn.
34243
Post by: Blacksails
 Raxmei wrote:Probably been pointed out before, but tank commanders being characters means they can make precision shots. Pask in a Punisher with all the bolters would be rolling on average just under five sixes a turn.
As if we needed another reason to run him.
Not only are his sixes rending, but you can also assign these conveniently rending shots.
10127
Post by: Happygrunt
Blacksails wrote: Raxmei wrote:Probably been pointed out before, but tank commanders being characters means they can make precision shots. Pask in a Punisher with all the bolters would be rolling on average just under five sixes a turn.
As if we needed another reason to run him.
Not only are his sixes rending, but you can also assign these conveniently rending shots.
I am beginning to think someone didn't think character tanks through. 
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Post by: Ailaros
especially with a heavy 20 rending weapon...
I think the pask punisher just became the first thing in our new codex that's actually overpowered. Which is a shame, because I like the idea of a pask punisher.
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Post by: Blacksails
 Happygrunt wrote: Blacksails wrote: Raxmei wrote:Probably been pointed out before, but tank commanders being characters means they can make precision shots. Pask in a Punisher with all the bolters would be rolling on average just under five sixes a turn.
As if we needed another reason to run him.
Not only are his sixes rending, but you can also assign these conveniently rending shots.
I am beginning to think someone didn't think character tanks through.
Its also the whole warlord thing with who gets to be it if you have another HQ with higher leadership because they don't have a Ld value. I mean, I can't help but think that simply adding a Ld value to their stat lines would have been infinitely simpler than using this whole workaround shenanigans.
Oh, GW.
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Post by: Raxmei
Blacksails wrote: Raxmei wrote:Probably been pointed out before, but tank commanders being characters means they can make precision shots. Pask in a Punisher with all the bolters would be rolling on average just under five sixes a turn.
As if we needed another reason to run him.
Not only are his sixes rending, but you can also assign these conveniently rending shots.
Not quite that bad. Rending goes off on the roll to wound, so a precision rending shot would only be one out of thirty-six shots from Pask's Punisher cannon. A bit over an even chance of that happening. Of course that's still scary especially alongside all the normal hits.
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Post by: Blacksails
Right...I knew that.
I was...uhhh...just checking that you knew.
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Post by: Red Corsair
Ailaros wrote:especially with a heavy 20 rending weapon...
I think the pask punisher just became the first thing in our new codex that's actually overpowered. Which is a shame, because I like the idea of a pask punisher.
Its not over powered. hes 350 minimum with a eradicator escort, gets more expensive from there. I actually think he is way to pricey, by the time you finish making his squad mate actually useful your looking at over 400 points that's in a squadron. My marines love expensive vehicle squadrons. He still only has 3 HP and blows sky high to things like orbital bombardments or drop podding melta. If you buy him 12" of bubble wrap you now have even more invested in the guy and that same bubble wrap keeps him that much farther from getting that 24" range gun to bare.
He's awesome fun and a big threat but I don't think he is broken or overpowered by any stretch of the imagination. You definitely pay for what you get. Automatically Appended Next Post: So how funny would it be to ally Tigurius and GoI an entire power blob 24" first turn...
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Post by: Biophysical
I finally figured out the use of the Relentless warlord trait: Lord Commissars. If you have one of these guys as your warlord, it's actually an awesome trait, because you could attach him to a blob and make it walk and shoot heavy weapons, or even fire everything and assault if the opportunity arose. Better than a walking MoO, that's for sure.
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Post by: Blacksails
I think the Lord Commissar benefits the most from the new warlord table. There really isn't a dud for him, as you can deploy him wherever you want after you figure out what you get. A third of the time you get to issue an order, and giving relentless of preferred enemy is pretty righteous. The other two are still workable as well.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
Blacksails wrote:I think the Lord Commissar benefits the most from the new warlord table. There really isn't a dud for him, as you can deploy him wherever you want after you figure out what you get. A third of the time you get to issue an order, and giving relentless of preferred enemy is pretty righteous. The other two are still workable as well.
Just can't take a CCS to take him as the Warlord which is a bit of a downside for some armies (no Senior Officer Orders for instance).
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Post by: Blacksails
 ClockworkZion wrote:
Just can't take a CCS to take him as the Warlord which is a bit of a downside for some armies (no Senior Officer Orders for instance).
Yeah, but that's a reasonable choice.
Plus, the Lord Commissar model is bitchin'.
Also, you can't just go and change your avatar willy-nilly like that. Warn a brother.
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Post by: kir44n
Blacksails wrote:I think the Lord Commissar benefits the most from the new warlord table. There really isn't a dud for him, as you can deploy him wherever you want after you figure out what you get. A third of the time you get to issue an order, and giving relentless of preferred enemy is pretty righteous. The other two are still workable as well.
While he did gain on the Warlord tables, I think he lost more when he lost the generic "leadership" bubble and became a morale bubble. Right now I feel that the Lord Commissar is the weakest of the HQ choices we can take as a warlord at the present moment.
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Post by: Blacksails
kir44n wrote: Blacksails wrote:I think the Lord Commissar benefits the most from the new warlord table. There really isn't a dud for him, as you can deploy him wherever you want after you figure out what you get. A third of the time you get to issue an order, and giving relentless of preferred enemy is pretty righteous. The other two are still workable as well.
While he did gain on the Warlord tables, I think he lost more when he lost the generic "leadership" bubble and became a morale bubble. Right now I feel that the Lord Commissar is the weakest of the HQ choices we can take as a warlord at the present moment.
He's also dirt cheap though. You'd never take a naked Command Squad, which often puts its cost in the 100+ range, while you can take a cheap Lord for 70pts with the Emperor's Benediction to buff out a large blob squad or for playing at small point levels to give a squad a little extra zing.
I think its a fair choice, though I admit it'd be better if he had his old bubble back, but them's the breaks.
But seriously, look at that model. Dat pose.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
Blacksails wrote: ClockworkZion wrote:
Just can't take a CCS to take him as the Warlord which is a bit of a downside for some armies (no Senior Officer Orders for instance).
Yeah, but that's a reasonable choice.
Plus, the Lord Commissar model is bitchin'.
Also, you can't just go and change your avatar willy-nilly like that. Warn a brother.
Don't like the mustache twirling?
I decided change was good and with starting a Vostroyan army as my primary army it fits.
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Post by: Blacksails
ClockworkZion wrote:
Don't like the mustache twirling?
I decided change was good and with starting a Vostroyan army as my primary army it fits.
Are you just starting a Guard army? And a Vostroyan at that?
If so, carry on with my blessing. Go forth fellow commander!
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Post by: ClockworkZion
Blacksails wrote: ClockworkZion wrote:
Don't like the mustache twirling?
I decided change was good and with starting a Vostroyan army as my primary army it fits.
Are you just starting a Guard army? And a Vostroyan at that?
If so, carry on with my blessing. Go forth fellow commander!
Well I'm not running off to join the military (again).
And yes, a second all metal army full of models with bling. Because the table needs more armies with bling.
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Post by: Biophysical
I think the LC is really the only choice (but still pretty questionable) for the Death Mask also. Makes him a pretty tough Warlord. Those Senior Officer orders are so painfully good, though.
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Post by: Blacksails
Funny enough, I just managed to find someone to buy all my current Guard so I can focus on turning my old metal stuff into new resin stuff.
Though the Vostroyans have always been a close second for me.
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Post by: kir44n
Don't get me wrong, I love the Lord Commissar Model. I picked him up first day when finecast came out, and used him alot for my 2nd HQ choice in alot of my lists.
Its just that, right now, for foot lists I can't imagine not having orders, nor the command squads close-range firepower, and in a tank list not taking pask as the warlord. And if you are looking to fill up a 2nd HQ slot, a CCS is still 10 points cheaper naked, and in my eyes the orders alone make it outweigh the Lord Commisssars morale bubble.
I myself have two full platoons of cadians, but have built up a 3rd platoon of steel legion. Currently decided on whether I'll continue fleshing out a 2nd army in Steel Legion, or pick up a different regiment.
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Post by: Blacksails
I guess this comes back to my dislike of all things random, or at least random tables that could have just been selections.
The Lord Commissar would be a great budget choice if you could pick exactly what you want to do with him. Want PE for a blob? Or maybe relentless?
Ah well. I think the Lord got a bit of a buff overall, but then again, so did the command squad with the new orders.
My only gripe with tank commanders is that I want to be able to run him alone, like in the ABG list. Also, beast hunter shells.
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Post by: kir44n
Blacksails wrote:I guess this comes back to my dislike of all things random, or at least random tables that could have just been selections.
The Lord Commissar would be a great budget choice if you could pick exactly what you want to do with him. Want PE for a blob? Or maybe relentless?
Ah well. I think the Lord got a bit of a buff overall, but then again, so did the command squad with the new orders.
My only gripe with tank commanders is that I want to be able to run him alone, like in the ABG list. Also, beast hunter shells.
the relentless trait, then sticking him inside a full platoon with heavy weapons? Yes please, that would be magnificent.
As for beast-hunter shells...one of my brothers mains Nids, and the primary reason he won't vote for FW in our gaming group is because he fears the Beast-Hunter shells deleting his Tervigons & Trygons. Well, that and he thinks autocannon chimeras are too good XD.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
Blacksails wrote:Funny enough, I just managed to find someone to buy all my current Guard so I can focus on turning my old metal stuff into new resin stuff.
Though the Vostroyans have always been a close second for me.
I guess I just can't play an army that can't be used to blugeon muggers to death with.
Though considering how big Guard armies can get I'll probably be able to beat a bear to death with this one.
I looked at Krieg, and while I love the models I had two major quibbles with them and one minor one: first there was the rules. I didn't really feel like playing WWI: the Army but at the same time I didn't feel like they felt right being used normally like other Guard armies. The second major problem is the colors are drab. And while I know that's intentional I see a lot of drab armies (especially a lot of plain black armies, because they're so easy to paint) and I wanted an army that would "pop" on the table. The last issue I had is with resin: namely it's a pain to deal with, it's not hard to accidently break and even as good as FW is about their models I just didn't want to go down that road with them.
That pretty much left me with Cadia (*yawn*), Catachan (buff macho men: the army isn't really my thing) or one of the metal Guard armies. And frankly Vostroyans are the only ones of them that look good, and it's probably because they're a lot younger than the other model lines. Plus they fit 40k (looking VERY much like Blanche's concept for them) very well, and give me an excuse to play with snow flocking.
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Post by: kir44n
ClockworkZion wrote: Blacksails wrote:Funny enough, I just managed to find someone to buy all my current Guard so I can focus on turning my old metal stuff into new resin stuff.
Though the Vostroyans have always been a close second for me.
I guess I just can't play an army that can't be used to blugeon muggers to death with.
Though considering how big Guard armies can get I'll probably be able to beat a bear to death with this one.
I looked at Krieg, and while I love the models I had two major quibbles with them and one minor one: first there was the rules. I didn't really feel like playing WWI: the Army but at the same time I didn't feel like they felt right being used normally like other Guard armies. The second major problem is the colors are drab. And while I know that's intentional I see a lot of drab armies (especially a lot of plain black armies, because they're so easy to paint) and I wanted an army that would "pop" on the table. The last issue I had is with resin: namely it's a pain to deal with, it's not hard to accidently break and even as good as FW is about their models I just didn't want to go down that road with them.
That pretty much left me with Cadia (*yawn*), Catachan (buff macho men: the army isn't really my thing) or one of the metal Guard armies. And frankly Vostroyans are the only ones of them that look good, and it's probably because they're a lot younger than the other model lines. Plus they fit 40k (looking VERY much like Blanche's concept for them) very well, and give me an excuse to play with snow flocking.
I will point out that color only matters if you're going off of one of the established regiments/color patterns. My main guard is in blue-grey uniform, with my stormtroopers and special weapons squads going for black uniforms & gold armor. Because being ostentatious is amazing on the battlefield.
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Post by: Blacksails
Those are all reasonable points. I'm using Vic Minis for my army now; she does Mordians better than GW, and I'd sacrifice a little bit of durability and ease of assembly (read: none) for multi-part, more details and options, version with constant support. Not to mention the future female version to make the force look even better.
Metal was nice for some things, but a pain for others. Slopes always made me uncomfortably angry.
Krieg models are certainly nice, but, like you, not for me. I like fairly bright colours, hence Mordian Guard for the dress uniform aspect.
Vostroyans always kind of scared from a painting aspect too. There's just so much on each model I don't know if I could ever make it look good. I'll stick to my simpler models with uniforms I'm more comfortable with.
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Post by: kir44n
Blacksails wrote:Those are all reasonable points. I'm using Vic Minis for my army now; she does Mordians better than GW, and I'd sacrifice a little bit of durability and ease of assembly (read: none) for multi-part, more details and options, version with constant support. Not to mention the future female version to make the force look even better.
Metal was nice for some things, but a pain for others. Slopes always made me uncomfortably angry.
Krieg models are certainly nice, but, like you, not for me. I like fairly bright colours, hence Mordian Guard for the dress uniform aspect.
Vostroyans always kind of scared from a painting aspect too. There's just so much on each model I don't know if I could ever make it look good. I'll stick to my simpler models with uniforms I'm more comfortable with.
I take it you never put on magnetic bases, or glued magnets underneath your models & did the same to your battleboard?
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Post by: Blacksails
kir44n wrote:
I take it you never put on magnetic bases, or glued magnets underneath your models & did the same to your battleboard?
You're assuming I have even an iota of modelling ability.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
Blacksails wrote:Those are all reasonable points. I'm using Vic Minis for my army now; she does Mordians better than GW, and I'd sacrifice a little bit of durability and ease of assembly (read: none) for multi-part, more details and options, version with constant support. Not to mention the future female version to make the force look even better.
Metal was nice for some things, but a pain for others. Slopes always made me uncomfortably angry.
Krieg models are certainly nice, but, like you, not for me. I like fairly bright colours, hence Mordian Guard for the dress uniform aspect.
Vostroyans always kind of scared from a painting aspect too. There's just so much on each model I don't know if I could ever make it look good. I'll stick to my simpler models with uniforms I'm more comfortable with.
Oddly a lot going on with the infantry, but not the tanks. The tanks are pretty easy to paint honestly (I did a Stormblade up as a kind of experiment and all really it takes a steel color (which you may or may not wash with Nuln Oil), a brass color (which you may or may not age with Nihilakh Oxide or a watered down turquoise) Karnak Stone for the armoured panels, and a heavy drybrushing of Screaming Skull over that (to texture it a bit, and pick out raised details) the add stripes in Metephiston Red and pick out details in that with a lighter red to make it look not flat) I used an airbrush and was done in 3 hours. I'll probably take longer next time but I'll be doing it in parts and trying to make it as swappable as possible, so more parts to paint).
I'm currently soaking my Vostroyans (all 8 of them because the Heavy Bolter team escaped unpainted for the moment because that darned arm doesn't want to stay on) in Simple Green to give them another go this weekend as I wasn't 100% satisfied with how things were going on parts of them. Namely on the leather and wood bits (I've never painted leather or wood grain before so I'm learning with both). I may end up making a tutorial out of this stuff just to share how I did/do things.
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Post by: Mavnas
Blacksails wrote:I don't want to bring allies though. I don't want to shell out for a (legal) Inquisition book just to bring a slightly better option, when I can stay in-book for largely the same effect. Its also less to carry around, the references are on one page, and there's no confusion for my opponent.
Fair. I think I just find inquisitors cooler than random psyker dudes.
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Post by: Ailaros
So, the pask punisher has a 50% chance to stick a lascannon or a multimelta shot on the model of his choice (which will probably wound, and ignores armor). Then, on top of that, he puts down slightly over 3 more precise shots with the gatling gun, which means another 50% chance for an Ap2 shot that this time DOES auto-wound.
That means, on average, you should expect to put one Ap2 wound on the model of your choice, with a roughly even chance of doing it twice as not at all. Plus, you also will usually get another two S5 Ap- hits on the model of your choice as well, including that huge pile of hits and wound which will allow you to pick out "hidden" stuff with just wound allocation.
On a tank that's already good against everything.
And the only cost is being forced to take another leman russ to put him with. Boo hoo.
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Post by: Mavnas
Blacksails wrote: Raxmei wrote:Probably been pointed out before, but tank commanders being characters means they can make precision shots. Pask in a Punisher with all the bolters would be rolling on average just under five sixes a turn.
As if we needed another reason to run him.
Not only are his sixes rending, but you can also assign these conveniently rending shots.
6s to hit are Precision, 6s to wound are Rending. You have a 1 in 36 chance of getting both.
especially with a heavy 20 rending weapon...
I think the pask punisher just became the first thing in our new codex that's actually overpowered. Which is a shame, because I like the idea of a pask punisher.
I think it's fair for the points and the short range. In the sisters codex, I can put 8 heavy bolters that rend for 2 turns on the table for 244 points, that's 24 shots at 36", but they are squishier and can run out of uses of their abilities. Getting Pask that close to the enemy makes him vulnerable to being charged unless you spend even more points to bubble-wrap him, at which point, he had better be murdering things.
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Post by: Ailaros
Yeah, they're squishier and can't put down precise shots, and can't also take multimeltas, lascannons, AV14 bodyguards, and tank orders. Pask is much, MUCH better.
And that short range is rather mitigated by the tank order that lets them spend a turn moving like a normal tank.
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Post by: Mavnas
Blacksails wrote: ClockworkZion wrote:
Don't like the mustache twirling?
I decided change was good and with starting a Vostroyan army as my primary army it fits.
Are you just starting a Guard army? And a Vostroyan at that?
If so, carry on with my blessing. Go forth fellow commander!
Well, I'm going to attempt to start a Praetorian Guard army, which isn't even mentioned in the current codex :( Going to see how far eBay gets me before I have to do some serious converting/3rd party stuff. Not sure how to handle the vehicles.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
Mavnas wrote: Blacksails wrote: ClockworkZion wrote:
Don't like the mustache twirling?
I decided change was good and with starting a Vostroyan army as my primary army it fits.
Are you just starting a Guard army? And a Vostroyan at that?
If so, carry on with my blessing. Go forth fellow commander!
Well, I'm going to attempt to start a Praetorian Guard army, which isn't even mentioned in the current codex :( Going to see how far eBay gets me before I have to do some serious converting/3rd party stuff. Not sure how to handle the vehicles.
Vehicles for Guard are largely standardized so you shouldn't need to go too special with those. I read Victoria Lamb does some stuff that would fit rather nicely, but that was some posts from a few years ago so take that with salt just in case I'm wrong.
And it's actually because Praetorian Guard were phased out like they were that I'm looking at starting Vostroyans before it's too late. I've already noticed that there are models (Commander with Power Fist, Officer with Chainsword for instance) missing and if I wait too long they'll disappear completely before I can field them as an army, so I'm not stalling anymore.
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Post by: Mavnas
Ailaros wrote:So, the pask punisher has a 50% chance to stick a lascannon or a multimelta shot on the model of his choice (which will probably wound, and ignores armor). Then, on top of that, he puts down slightly over 3 more precise shots with the gatling gun, which means another 50% chance for an Ap2 shot that this time DOES auto-wound.
That means, on average, you should expect to put one Ap2 wound on the model of your choice, with a roughly even chance of doing it twice as not at all. Plus, you also will usually get another two S5 Ap- hits on the model of your choice as well, including that huge pile of hits and wound which will allow you to pick out "hidden" stuff with just wound allocation.
On a tank that's already good against everything.
And the only cost is being forced to take another leman russ to put him with. Boo hoo.
You mean he has a 1 in 3 chance of making a guy fail a LoS! test, and if that guy is T5, you get to strip off a wound if you beat his 4++? Otherwise you do get to ID something, but anything worth a lot isn't going to die. Some special weapons, sure, but at the amount of points you'd spent, you're really needing to sweep squads off the table for it to be worthwhile. Not saying Pask can't make his points back, but I'm saying he's not over costed given the odds that a single penetrating hit will instantly cost you about 250 points. It's not like your enemy can't take Vendettas or Vanquishers and snipe at him as he's forced to come forward to make use of his 24" gun. Automatically Appended Next Post: ClockworkZion wrote:And it's actually because Praetorian Guard were phased out like they were that I'm looking at starting Vostroyans before it's too late. I've already noticed that there are models (Commander with Power Fist, Officer with Chainsword for instance) missing and if I wait too long they'll disappear completely before I can field them as an army, so I'm not stalling anymore.
The good news about Praetorian guards is that I can get Zulu wars era British minis for about $1-2 per dude (which will be important when I start thinking about multiple blobs). The downside is that's a lot of dudes who will need a lasgun conversion of some sort.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
Mavnas wrote:You mean he has a 1 in 3 chance of making a guy fail a LoS! test, and if that guy is T5, you get to strip off a wound if you beat his 4++? Otherwise you do get to ID something, but anything worth a lot isn't going to die. Some special weapons, sure, but at the amount of points you'd spent, you're really needing to sweep squads off the table for it to be worthwhile. Not saying Pask can't make his points back, but I'm saying he's not over costed given the odds that a single penetrating hit will instantly cost you about 250 points. It's not like your enemy can't take Vendettas or Vanquishers and snipe at him as he's forced to come forward to make use of his 24" gun.
Put the wound on their Melta gunner instead of the character then.
And I've seen Pask butcher things back before he had Rending on that thing, so him re-rolling 1s to hit and to wound against the codex of your choice that game, AND having Rending AND getting to allocate wounds to things to pick off key support models in a squad (special/heavy weapons mostly) is pretty useful.
Mavnas wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:
ClockworkZion wrote:And it's actually because Praetorian Guard were phased out like they were that I'm looking at starting Vostroyans before it's too late. I've already noticed that there are models (Commander with Power Fist, Officer with Chainsword for instance) missing and if I wait too long they'll disappear completely before I can field them as an army, so I'm not stalling anymore.
The good news about Praetorian guards is that I can get Zulu wars era British minis for about $1-2 per dude (which will be important when I start thinking about multiple blobs). The downside is that's a lot of dudes who will need a lasgun conversion of some sort.
Lasguns come in many forms, and failing getting away with that, just say they're stubbers instead (which have the same profile but use regular ammo).
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Post by: Mr.Omega
Mavnas wrote: Ailaros wrote:So, the pask punisher has a 50% chance to stick a lascannon or a multimelta shot on the model of his choice (which will probably wound, and ignores armor). Then, on top of that, he puts down slightly over 3 more precise shots with the gatling gun, which means another 50% chance for an Ap2 shot that this time DOES auto-wound.
That means, on average, you should expect to put one Ap2 wound on the model of your choice, with a roughly even chance of doing it twice as not at all. Plus, you also will usually get another two S5 Ap- hits on the model of your choice as well, including that huge pile of hits and wound which will allow you to pick out "hidden" stuff with just wound allocation.
On a tank that's already good against everything.
And the only cost is being forced to take another leman russ to put him with. Boo hoo.
You mean he has a 1 in 3 chance of making a guy fail a LoS! test, and if that guy is T5, you get to strip off a wound if you beat his 4++? Otherwise you do get to ID something, but anything worth a lot isn't going to die. Some special weapons, sure, but at the amount of points you'd spent, you're really needing to sweep squads off the table for it to be worthwhile. Not saying Pask can't make his points back, but I'm saying he's not over costed given the odds that a single penetrating hit will instantly cost you about 250 points. It's not like your enemy can't take Vendettas or Vanquishers and snipe at him as he's forced to come forward to make use of his 24" gun.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ClockworkZion wrote:And it's actually because Praetorian Guard were phased out like they were that I'm looking at starting Vostroyans before it's too late. I've already noticed that there are models (Commander with Power Fist, Officer with Chainsword for instance) missing and if I wait too long they'll disappear completely before I can field them as an army, so I'm not stalling anymore.
The good news about Praetorian guards is that I can get Zulu wars era British minis for about $1-2 per dude (which will be important when I start thinking about multiple blobs). The downside is that's a lot of dudes who will need a lasgun conversion of some sort.
Yes he is 250 points, but there are some key things to remember -the squadron buddy will absorb hits first, we're talking about AV14 so the odds are absurdly low to begin with, and even with a penetrating hit your average AT weapon will at best have a 1/3 chance to destroy the squadron buddy from there. If you let melta get near it you've made a strategic error.
Plus, Strike and Shroud now means that you get a 5+ cover in the most dangerous turn of shootinf,.
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Post by: RaptorsTalon
How does split fire work in regards to shooting the contents of a transport? It allows you to shoot a different unit, but is it still simultaneous?
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Post by: Paradigm
RaptorsTallon wrote:How does split fire work in regards to shooting the contents of a transport? It allows you to shoot a different unit, but is it still simultaneous?
Yes, it is, so no transport-popping with Commander and content-mulching with his mates.
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Post by: RaptorsTalon
Hmm... Perhaps then it is more sensible to pair the Pasknisher with another russ that would benefit more from shooting a different target all together then? Perhaps a Vanquisher or an Exterminator?
When shooting at light vehicles, the pasknisher will easily kill it meaning the other tank has to split fire to be useful anyway.
Then, if there is another target as well as light armour, such as infantry, the escort tank can pop the transport and the pasknisher can kill infantry instead, again with split fire, whereas with the Eradicator, the tank is useless unless there is an infantry target, which it may be more likely to find from it's own squadron.
The only point when this setup is worse is when there is either only infantry or when the split fire order is failed, meaning either you overkill a vehicle or some poor infantryman takes a vanquisher round to the face.
Is there any merit to this idea?
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Post by: Mavnas
Yes he is 250 points, but there are some key things to remember -the squadron buddy will absorb hits first, we're talking about AV14 so the odds are absurdly low to begin with, and even with a penetrating hit your average AT weapon will at best have a 1/3 chance to destroy the squadron buddy from there. If you let melta get near it you've made a strategic error.
Plus, Strike and Shroud now means that you get a 5+ cover in the most dangerous turn of shootinf,.
He's likely got shorter range than his squad mates. Making sure that they eat incoming fire means the second tank is giving up its normal range to cover for Pask. AV14 is nice, but a melta hit still has about a 25% chance to wipe it out in one hit. Tank hunting lascannons have a 1 in 9 or there abouts to explode it. Now that's not too bad unless your opponent could put 5 in a blob, prescience that blob and the order them to kill tanks an MCs. Look at the bright side, if he only took one ML2 Psyker, there's only a 1 in 3 chance he can ignore your cover too. Most 5 LC blobs will have to choose, but if he gets both, he's stripping away slightly more than 2 HP from 48" away. Depending how close that blob started, Pask may never get to do more than strip away the first rank. I'm not saying he can't murder them, I'm saying he actually requires decent tactics to murder things to his full potential.
Also, the second tank makes the unit's footprint bigger so more difficult to protect from melee assault.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
RaptorsTallon wrote:Hmm... Perhaps then it is more sensible to pair the Pasknisher with another russ that would benefit more from shooting a different target all together then? Perhaps a Vanquisher or an Exterminator?
When shooting at light vehicles, the pasknisher will easily kill it meaning the other tank has to split fire to be useful anyway.
Then, if there is another target as well as light armour, such as infantry, the escort tank can pop the transport and the pasknisher can kill infantry instead, again with split fire, whereas with the Eradicator, the tank is useless unless there is an infantry target, which it may be more likely to find from it's own squadron.
The only point when this setup is worse is when there is either only infantry or when the split fire order is failed, meaning either you overkill a vehicle or some poor infantryman takes a vanquisher round to the face.
Is there any merit to this idea?
Pask's biggest strength IMO is that his ideal target is anything. He murders infantry of all types and even has a decent shot at vehicles at AV14. The only bad target for him is a 35 point rhino or something similarly cheap. His partner can specialize in shooting anything, but ideally has better range and targets whatever your enemy brought most of. The only other thing Pask can't really hurt is T9 or 10 with a lot of W or good cover/invuln, but that's OK, no one is particularly good at hitting transcendent c'tans except maybe grav centurions.
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Post by: Ailaros
Mavnas wrote:You mean he has a 1 in 3 chance of making a guy fail a LoS! test, and if that guy is T5, you get to strip off a wound if you beat his 4++?
I said the most likely result is that he puts an Ap2 wound on the model of his choice, with 3 more regular ones on the model of his choice.
I didn't say he was going to snipe tigurius or abbadon to death at a blow. If you don't apply the wounds to things with a 2+ LoS! then you've got a half chance, and if you don't apply it to a character at all (like a special wargear model, or the model closest to an objective, or whatever), then he doesn't get a LoS! roll at all. Plus, only a tiny number of models get a 4++ anyways.
If you don't assign those 4 picked wounds to the worst possible targets, that ability gets a whole lot better.
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Post by: Mavnas
If your opponent leaves that many non-characters with cool special weapons out in the open within 24" inches of Pask, then he deserves to be Punished for it. I think his precision shots are a highly situational side benefit. What you paid your points was a guy who is truly versatile in his ideal targets.
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Post by: Ailaros
Within 30" or within up to 48" over two turns.
And the lascannon on the tank lets him throw wounds further.
And not every unit in the game exists to do damage from further than 30".
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Post by: Biophysical
More silliness, just because.
Scion Command Squad
Plasma pistol
Plasma gun x4
Priest with plasma gun
Primaris Psyker optional
Transport of choice
"...but this one goes to eleven (plasma shots)"
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Post by: Paradigm
Biophysical wrote:More silliness, just because.
Scion Command Squad
Plasma pistol
Plasma gun x4
Priest with plasma gun
Primaris Psyker optional
Transport of choice
"...but this one goes to eleven (plasma shots)"
That's... erm... possibly the most awesome thing ever. Although you could add 2 more Priests...
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Post by: Mavnas
Biophysical wrote:More silliness, just because.
Scion Command Squad
Plasma pistol
Plasma gun x4
Priest with plasma gun
Primaris Psyker optional
Transport of choice
"...but this one goes to eleven (plasma shots)"
I tried something like that with dominions with melta, 4 melta shots 3 plasma shots that outflank and ignore cover for one turn. It just wasn't that effective. The unit is too much of a glass cannon. Units that fragile only survive if the don't shoot up to the top of your opponent's target priority.
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Post by: daedalus
 Paradigm wrote:Biophysical wrote:More silliness, just because.
Scion Command Squad
Plasma pistol
Plasma gun x4
Priest with plasma gun
Primaris Psyker optional
Transport of choice
"...but this one goes to eleven (plasma shots)"
That's... erm... possibly the most awesome thing ever. Although you could add 2 more Priests...
If you did it with a ccs, you could also toss in an astropath with psychic shriek for more ignores armor fun..
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Post by: Biophysical
But then it wouldn't be 11, and that is half of why this is cool.
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Post by: Mavnas
If you take the primaris psyker and make him biomancy/div you can get 4 more shots at S4AP2 from him.
83767
Post by: Stus67
So I guess taking Creed and Pask would be a bit ridiculous, but I want both for the potential 4 orders and Pask's Punisher Circus with Prescience.
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Post by: TheKbob
I think the best compliment to a Pask Punisher Regiment is an Imperial Knight.
You suddenly shift weight away from the Av14 squad due to the Av13 Super Heavy Walker/Mini-Titan that's advancing with Pask that wants so bad to give you the D.
Arm it with a melta cannon to crack the sweet goods of even the toughtest transports and then let pask and pals vaporize the sweet, sweet goodies on the inside.
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Post by: Mavnas
If you're paying almost 400 points to have a less than 50% chance to pop open a Rhino each turn...
I'm less and less sold on knights. Has anyone done the math for how many guardsmen they kill per turn if your blob of 50 engages a knight? I've never played the pile in rules too well, but never had units that big. I'm wondering how much they force you to bunch up under the stomp templates, because that epic chainsword is only going to cut down 2 guardsmen a turn.
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Post by: Ailaros
You can't charge a unit you can't hurt, and you can't stay in close combat against one you can't hurt either.
And you can't just keep that one meltagun guy at the very back of the squad either. Not without tripping the above rule.
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Post by: Mavnas
Ailaros wrote:You can't charge a unit you can't hurt, and you can't stay in close combat against one you can't hurt either.
And you can't just keep that one meltagun guy at the very back of the squad either. Not without tripping the above rule.
This does not apply to walkers anymore. Also a single melta bomb or any S bump to a priest would have gotten around this.
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Post by: Red Corsair
Ailaros wrote:So, the pask punisher has a 50% chance to stick a lascannon or a multimelta shot on the model of his choice (which will probably wound, and ignores armor). Then, on top of that, he puts down slightly over 3 more precise shots with the gatling gun, which means another 50% chance for an Ap2 shot that this time DOES auto-wound.
That means, on average, you should expect to put one Ap2 wound on the model of your choice, with a roughly even chance of doing it twice as not at all. Plus, you also will usually get another two S5 Ap- hits on the model of your choice as well, including that huge pile of hits and wound which will allow you to pick out "hidden" stuff with just wound allocation.
On a tank that's already good against everything.
And the only cost is being forced to take another leman russ to put him with. Boo hoo.
Big whoop. You spent 400+ points and you seriously are nit picking over precision shots? When I buy a dedicated shooter for over 400 points, it had better wipe its target out, if its not then its a failure from the word go. If it's last turn and you can't wipe scoring bodies off that objective you have done something horribly wrong.
I honestly think your way better off just taking a bog standard squadron and giving it prescience and orders to suit. A loaded vanquisher is 165, with TL and orders for tank hunting or cover striping or heck why not both, you can easily cripple if not destroy that paskisher turn 1. If he has a blocker then he is that much further back and you'll get another go at him anyway since he is further back and his range isn't awesome.
Hes cool, but he is not broken at his cost. In fact the only tank he really buffs is the punisher, because your going to want to prescience your russes either way, ie. his squadron mates which makes his tank buff for all the others redundant. Since you want to run him in a punisher 99% of the time, he needs to constantly use his fire+flat out order which means they aren't splitting fire without help, yet more investment. This also means he won't have bubble wrap that can keep up with him, meaning DS melta will chew through him, or you stay somewhere safe and don't earn your keep.
I am not saying he is bad, but he is situational, and very expensive, to the point where you will need to model a list around him. Because of these reasons he is in no way close to broken.
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Post by: Mavnas
You can't order tanks to ignore cover, you can only give them the tank specific orders.
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Post by: Ailaros
A pask punisher is only 240 points. If you're going to talk about all those extra points, you have to also talk about all the extra stuff you get for them.
What we're talking about is taking pask for a tank. We're only talking about what pask does, which means we should be talking about 70 points here.
70 points to take a punisher and make it rending and give it precise shot along with BS4 and preferred enemy. That's a hell of an upgrade.
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Post by: Mavnas
Also it's not fire and flat out. It's just a better flat out.
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Post by: ansacs
If you are going to run forward blobbs and have a lot of knights to contend with you should think about melta bombs on the sarges. They will also help against walkers and MCs.
The Knight will deal out an average of ~14 guardsmen per stomp assuming you have enough models to place the blast marker over (so ~28 models an assault phase). Knights are brutal against hordes, MCs, and Vehicles. Now the funny thing is if you take a unit of ten and get them all in b2b then the max casualties per stomp is 3 models...
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Post by: Leth
I think pask as warlord then you are gonna want to go vanquisher. Just for that extra protection. Even looking at the cheapest russ as his sidekick(the 120 pts one). However when not a warlord I would say punisher all day.
I think it also has to do with your flier defense. If I am low on flier defense I am going to want pask in a punisher all day long.
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Post by: zoat
I don't know if anyone mentioned this already, but the wording is that "The Tank Commander's tank is a character...."
So the precision shot thingy is not limited to Pask or the main gun for that matter.
Also this would imply that the Tank Commander's tank gets a 4+ "Look out sir" making Tank Commander's tank rather hard to kill.
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Post by: TheKbob
Ailaros wrote:You can't charge a unit you can't hurt, and you can't stay in close combat against one you can't hurt either.
And you can't just keep that one meltagun guy at the very back of the squad either. Not without tripping the above rule.
Incorrect on two accounts... Pg 4 of the BRB FAQ, you can charge units you cannot hurt.
I don't have the page, but the "Our Weapons Are Useless!" is not mandatory. It's an optional elect.
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Post by: tomjoad
I cannot imagine taking Pask and NOT making him your Warlord. For the very high price you pay to get him, why would you deny yourself the Preferred Enemy?
 TheKbob wrote: Ailaros wrote:You can't charge a unit you can't hurt, and you can't stay in close combat against one you can't hurt either.
And you can't just keep that one meltagun guy at the very back of the squad either. Not without tripping the above rule.
Incorrect on two accounts... Pg 4 of the BRB FAQ, you can charge units you cannot hurt.
I don't have the page, but the "Our Weapons Are Useless!" is not mandatory. It's an optional elect.
Not to get into the semantics of whether or not pg 4 applies to walkers, I'll point out that, at the least, many tournaments are reading this the same way as Ailaros is, and tourney FAQs are the best source we have to go on for a lot of these issues.
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Post by: Red Corsair
Mavnas wrote:You can't order tanks to ignore cover, you can only give them the tank specific orders.
Where does it say you can't give orders to tanks outside command tank units? I thought unless otherwise stated a vehicles LD was a 10 or is that only a grey knight thing?
Ailaros wrote:A pask punisher is only 240 points. If you're going to talk about all those extra points, you have to also talk about all the extra stuff you get for them.
What we're talking about is taking pask for a tank. We're only talking about what pask does, which means we should be talking about 70 points here.
70 points to take a punisher and make it rending and give it precise shot along with BS4 and preferred enemy. That's a hell of an upgrade.
Except where not, you can't get pask without fulfilling all the requirements so he is not just 70 points. He MUST take a squadron, that makes him a minimum of 310 if you buy two Eradicators to upgrade. 330 for a punisher with no sponsons. It just gets more expensive from there. We also aren't looking at BS 4, that is what you get for 30 points from a normal tank commander, we are really looking at +40 for preferred enemy ONLY IF hes your warlord and then the tank specific buffs of which only the punisher is really that good. Which then makes him MORE restrictive when you realize he needs to drive close turn 1 and forfeit shooting for him and his squad all in the name of getting set up for turn two, which makes him incredibly vulnerable from the get go. I have no problem whatsoever killing russ squadrons with my marines when they get close with me.
Your over estimating him by a long margin. Hes good, but again your paying through the nose for it. I thinhk he will work best in lists built around him from the bottom up. He is a terrible unit to just tack on to any army.
Automatically Appended Next Post: zoat wrote:I don't know if anyone mentioned this already, but the wording is that "The Tank Commander's tank is a character...."
So the precision shot thingy is not limited to Pask or the main gun for that matter.
Also this would imply that the Tank Commander's tank gets a 4+ "Look out sir" making Tank Commander's tank rather hard to kill.
Except you can only LoS wounds so it doesn't even matter because hes a vehicle.
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Post by: Mr.Omega
Red Corsair wrote: Ailaros wrote:So, the pask punisher has a 50% chance to stick a lascannon or a multimelta shot on the model of his choice (which will probably wound, and ignores armor). Then, on top of that, he puts down slightly over 3 more precise shots with the gatling gun, which means another 50% chance for an Ap2 shot that this time DOES auto-wound.
That means, on average, you should expect to put one Ap2 wound on the model of your choice, with a roughly even chance of doing it twice as not at all. Plus, you also will usually get another two S5 Ap- hits on the model of your choice as well, including that huge pile of hits and wound which will allow you to pick out "hidden" stuff with just wound allocation.
On a tank that's already good against everything.
And the only cost is being forced to take another leman russ to put him with. Boo hoo.
Big whoop. You spent 400+ points and you seriously are nit picking over precision shots? When I buy a dedicated shooter for over 400 points,
We're talking about two tanks here, not one. And precision shots are a bonus, if the unit is massive, or has exceptional defensive bonuses, the precision shots are a winner.
it had better wipe its target out, if its not then its a failure from the word go.
The combined fire of two Leman Russes, if with reasonable luck, will definitely give a target a grilling that will on a fair number of occasions give a wipe, or near wipe. And your idea here is for the most part false. Model for model, you are getting a very reasonable amount of firepower for cost.
You should not treat 40k as a game where 400 points = Guaranteed unit wipe insurance. You should consider the benefits and pro's of each choice, not whether they can tick one box.
If it's last turn and you can't wipe scoring bodies off that objective you have done something horribly wrong.
State-the-obvious theoryhammer like this is completely pointless. This is a flaw of your own strategy before your army list predominantly unless your list is garbage, which it certainly is not because Pask is included.
I honestly think your way better off just taking a bog standard squadron and giving it prescience and orders to suit.
A Primaris for 50 gives you re-rolls to hit. Pask for 70 gives a tank BS4, twinlinks and gives specific USR's to himself and gives preferred enemy to his entire squadron (re-roll to hit's and wounds, extremely helpful for squad wiping with re-roll's on 2+'s) if the Warlord. In addition, if you don't need orders particularly, you're getting more efficiency out of your points.
A loaded vanquisher is 165, with TL and orders for tank hunting or cover striping or heck why not both, you can easily cripple if not destroy that paskisher turn 1.
Those orders are infantry exclusive. The minimum you need to twinlink a Vanquisher is 185, and that's just one TL BS3 S8 AP2 2d6 pen shot - in short, garbage. Pask gets tank hunter, twinlinked and BS4 on his Vanquisher for 205.
If he has a blocker then he is that much further back and you'll get another go at him anyway since he is further back
Are we trying to think while typing? This makes very limited sense. At most he's 6'' back, which only makes a difference if he has a punisher - and you can instead just be 1-2'' back, or get an extra squadron member.
and his range isn't awesome.
His range varies greatly.
Hes cool, but he is not broken at his cost. In fact the only tank he really buffs is the punisher. because your going to want to prescience your russes either way, ie. his squadron mates which makes his tank buff for all the others redundant.
This is complete toss. Presciencing Russes is nice but far from mandatory are not always practical, especially if your build uses the PP's somewhere else, and there is a point where investing in support characters becomes detrimental.
He buffs the Vanquisher considerably, making it far more reliable with the penetrate re-roll, and he also buffs the sponsons/hull Lascannon too. The Executioner is quite interesting, because he gives built in anti-gets hot insurance for his entire squadron, and a blind pie plate that can nerf low init infantry like Firewarriors, Guardsmen, Cultists and even on a 1/3 chance Marines into the ground with BS1.
He gives all members of the squadron, if your warlord, re-rolls to wound (period on most variants with 2+ to wound sort of guns) of a 1, which no psychic power can grant. Besides, giving double, or up to a third more movement for a turn, split-fire for more autonomous tanks, or a 5+/4+ cover for a turn even out in the open after firing at a critical moment is also exclusive to tank commanders.
Since you want to run him in a punisher 99% of the time, he needs to constantly use his fire+flat out order
[colour=red] This is a complete theoryhammer fallacy. You probably won't even need to use it once if you didn't put Pask in a poor position, at most you'll need to use it once.[/color]
This also means he won't have bubble wrap that can keep up with him,
Chimeras, Hellhound variants, Move-Move-Move'ing infantry, you're not exactly without options. Plus, you don't need to move the full distance.
meaning DS melta will chew through him, or you stay somewhere safe and don't earn your keep.
You say this like DS Melta is common outside of drop pods, in which case laugh as you roll onto the board turn 2 and wipe his pitifully overpriced Marines off the board - and drop pod armies like this aren't even commonly competitive or seen either. You're just taking the worst case doomsday scenario and pretending that the person using the unit is completely incompetent. There are simple ways to mitigate DS AT for sure that you can pull.
I am not saying he is bad,
No no no. You don't get to write scathing criticism without praise and claim this. You effectively called the build a failure.
but he is situational, and very expensive, to the point where you will need to model a list around him.
Not really. Its more a case of whether he fits the list better than a CCS or Lord Commissar. Besides, modelling your list around your strategy should always be done anyway.
Because of these reasons he is in no way close to broken.
He is close to broken in a Punisher with his ability to massacre infantry and destroy all but the heaviest tanks, but not quite.
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Post by: Red Corsair
You really need to figure out how to quote better because I refuse to even read your posts anymore. I am sure you made some decent points in there, I just refuse to fish for them.
edit, maybe just cut and paste your rebuttal under the quote box.
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Post by: Blacksails
Red Corsair wrote:You really need to figure out how to quote better because I refuse to even read your posts anymore. I am sure you made some decent points in there, I just refuse to fish for them.
edit, maybe just cut and paste your rebuttal under the quote box.
Even different colours would be a huge step.
It'd be better if he just figured out how to block off each line he was responding to.
As it is, its just awful to read, I agree.
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Post by: Mavnas
Pask shouldn't be your warlord unless you he's your only HQ. The rest of his squad is BS3. You need to twin link their guns with a psyker. So all he gives is re-rolls to wound on 1s. So nothing while shooting enemy vehicles.
You take him for rending or for his personal Tank hunters (this seems to be missing in this discussion)
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Post by: ninjafiredragon
Mr.Omega wrote: Red Corsair wrote: Ailaros wrote:So, the pask punisher has a 50% chance to stick a lascannon or a multimelta shot on the model of his choice (which will probably wound, and ignores armor). Then, on top of that, he puts down slightly over 3 more precise shots with the gatling gun, which means another 50% chance for an Ap2 shot that this time DOES auto-wound. That means, on average, you should expect to put one Ap2 wound on the model of your choice, with a roughly even chance of doing it twice as not at all. Plus, you also will usually get another two S5 Ap- hits on the model of your choice as well, including that huge pile of hits and wound which will allow you to pick out "hidden" stuff with just wound allocation. On a tank that's already good against everything. And the only cost is being forced to take another leman russ to put him with. Boo hoo.
Big whoop. You spent 400+ points and you seriously are nit picking over precision shots? When I buy a dedicated shooter for over 400 points, We're talking about two tanks here, not one. And precision shots are a bonus, if the unit is massive, or has exceptional defensive bonuses, the precision shots are a winner. it had better wipe its target out, if its not then its a failure from the word go. The combined fire of two Leman Russes, if with reasonable luck, will definitely give a target a grilling that will on a fair number of occasions give a wipe, or near wipe. And your idea here is for the most part false. Model for model, you are getting a very reasonable amount of firepower for cost.
You should not treat 40k as a game where 400 points = Guaranteed unit wipe insurance. You should consider the benefits and pro's of each choice, not whether they can tick one box. If it's last turn and you can't wipe scoring bodies off that objective you have done something horribly wrong. State-the-obvious theoryhammer like this is completely pointless. This is a flaw of your own strategy before your army list predominantly unless your list is garbage, which it certainly is not because Pask is included. I honestly think your way better off just taking a bog standard squadron and giving it prescience and orders to suit.
A Primaris for 50 gives you re-rolls to hit. Pask for 70 gives a tank BS4, twinlinks and gives specific USR's to himself and gives preferred enemy to his entire squadron (re-roll to hit's and wounds, extremely helpful for squad wiping with re-roll's on 2+'s) if the Warlord. In addition, if you don't need orders particularly, you're getting more efficiency out of your points. A loaded vanquisher is 165, with TL and orders for tank hunting or cover striping or heck why not both, you can easily cripple if not destroy that paskisher turn 1. Those orders are infantry exclusive. The minimum you need to twinlink a Vanquisher is 185, and that's just one TL BS3 S8 AP2 2d6 pen shot - in short, garbage. Pask gets tank hunter, twinlinked and BS4 on his Vanquisher for 205.
If he has a blocker then he is that much further back and you'll get another go at him anyway since he is further back Are we trying to think while typing? This makes very limited sense. At most he's 6'' back, which only makes a difference if he has a punisher - and you can instead just be 1-2'' back, or get an extra squadron member. and his range isn't awesome. His range varies greatly. Hes cool, but he is not broken at his cost. In fact the only tank he really buffs is the punisher. because your going to want to prescience your russes either way, ie. his squadron mates which makes his tank buff for all the others redundant. This is complete toss. Presciencing Russes is nice but far from mandatory are not always practical, especially if your build uses the PP's somewhere else, and there is a point where investing in support characters becomes detrimental.
He buffs the Vanquisher considerably, making it far more reliable with the penetrate re-roll, and he also buffs the sponsons/hull Lascannon too. The Executioner is quite interesting, because he gives built in anti-gets hot insurance for his entire squadron, and a blind pie plate that can nerf low init infantry like Firewarriors, Guardsmen, Cultists and even on a 1/3 chance Marines into the ground with BS1.
He gives all members of the squadron, if your warlord, re-rolls to wound (period on most variants with 2+ to wound sort of guns) of a 1, which no psychic power can grant. Besides, giving double, or up to a third more movement for a turn, split-fire for more autonomous tanks, or a 5+/4+ cover for a turn even out in the open after firing at a critical moment is also exclusive to tank commanders. Since you want to run him in a punisher 99% of the time, he needs to constantly use his fire+flat out order This is a complete theoryhammer fallacy. You probably won't even need to use it once if you didn't put Pask in a poor position, at most you'll need to use it once.[/color] This also means he won't have bubble wrap that can keep up with him, Chimeras, Hellhound variants, Move-Move-Move'ing infantry, you're not exactly without options. Plus, you don't need to move the full distance. meaning DS melta will chew through him, or you stay somewhere safe and don't earn your keep. You say this like DS Melta is common outside of drop pods, in which case laugh as you roll onto the board turn 2 and wipe his pitifully overpriced Marines off the board - and drop pod armies like this aren't even commonly competitive or seen either. You're just taking the worst case doomsday scenario and pretending that the person using the unit is completely incompetent. There are simple ways to mitigate DS AT for sure that you can pull. I am not saying he is bad, No no no. You don't get to write scathing criticism without praise and claim this. You effectively called the build a failure. but he is situational, and very expensive, to the point where you will need to model a list around him. Not really. Its more a case of whether he fits the list better than a CCS or Lord Commissar. Besides, modelling your list around your strategy should always be done anyway. Because of these reasons he is in no way close to broken. He is close to broken in a Punisher with his ability to massacre infantry and destroy all but the heaviest tanks, but not quite.
Lol quoted it to fix the color right as he fixed the color. Facepalm
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Post by: MaxZ
So is there a way to get Pask as your warlord yet still get CCS orders to units? I imagine this is why people don't make him their warlord right? The CCS orders seem rather vital...
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Post by: Mr.Omega
Blacksails wrote: Red Corsair wrote:You really need to figure out how to quote better because I refuse to even read your posts anymore. I am sure you made some decent points in there, I just refuse to fish for them.
edit, maybe just cut and paste your rebuttal under the quote box.
Even different colours would be a huge step.
It'd be better if he just figured out how to block off each line he was responding to.
As it is, its just awful to read, I agree.
Please don't refer to me in the third person when I'm literally 2 posts above. It's awfully rude.
Whinge whinge whinge. If I take the time to answer each and every point precisely someone should spare the extra few seconds to find it, or better yet, discover the magical properties of that which is known as the drag and drop highlight one can use with the mouse.
See. Magic.
But nonetheless, I have now coloured my responses.
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Post by: Blacksails
How else do you me to respond? Seems like a weird thing to be upset about.
Ironically enough, claiming someone to be rude when adding in things like 'whinge whinge whinge' to your post.
If you're going to participate in a discussion, its imperative your posts are clear. Its been pointed out several times by several members that your manner of quoting is particularly difficult to read.
I do thank you for the colours. It makes it much clearer.
Do you have a manner of posting that isn't abrasive and confrontational? You could seriously do without the sarcasm and general negativity. It certainly isn't helping your arguments.
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Post by: Mavnas
Chimeras, Hellhound variants, Move-Move-Move'ing infantry, you're not exactly without options. Plus, you don't need to move the full distance.
Move, move, move doesn't give you 12+ d6. At that point he's either outrunning his bubble wrap or it's thinning out to the point where it can be shot through reasonably effectively. Besides, any turn where you have to give that order is a turn you've lost his whole squad's shooting. If you do this more than once in what turns into a 5 turn game...
No no no. You don't get to write scathing criticism without praise and claim this. You effectively called the build a failure.
Have you been reading the part of the thread where I was talking about how awesome he is at being able to pick any target that's within range, and probably murder it (well not so much with a CM with Shield Eternal)? All, I'm saying is he isn't an instant I-Win choice.
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Post by: Ailaros
In any case, talking about carrier cost when just looking at an upgrade is pointless.
It would be like saying that it's a bad idea to give a las/plas executioner squad a heavy stubber, because you're spending 590 points for a S4 Ap6 heavy 3 weapon.
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Post by: Mr.Omega
Mavnas wrote:Chimeras, Hellhound variants, Move-Move-Move'ing infantry, you're not exactly without options. Plus, you don't need to move the full distance.
Move, move, move doesn't give you 12+ d6.
6'' move, plus a high chance of rolling at least one 6, and you don't need to move the full distance with the tanks.
At that point he's either outrunning his bubble wrap
Well, uh, don't go the extra inch?
or it's thinning out to the point where it can be shot through reasonably effectively.
At which point you immediately trigger Strike and Shroud. Unless you just drove your tank formation to a place where they're in excessive DS AT risk on turn 1/2 or in risk of being charged, in which case, you should probably rethink your strategy. A teeny bit.
Besides, any turn where you have to give that order is a turn you've lost his whole squad's shooting. If you do this more than once in what turns into a 5 turn game...
You won't do it more than once unless your positioning at the beginning of the game was exceptionally, laughably poor, you have zero patience and aren't using your sponsons.
No no no. You don't get to write scathing criticism without praise and claim this. You effectively called the build a failure.
Have you been reading the part of the thread where I was talking about how awesome he is at being able to pick any target that's within range, and probably murder it (well not so much with a CM with Shield Eternal)? All, I'm saying is he isn't an instant I-Win choice.
I was quoting Red Corsair's post, not yours.
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Post by: Mavnas
Ailaros wrote:In any case, talking about carrier cost when just looking at an upgrade is pointless.
It would be like saying that it's a bad idea to give a las/ plas executioner squad a heavy stubber, because you're spending 590 points for a S4 Ap6 heavy 3 weapon.
The heavy stubber doesn't force you to buy a second tank. As some building a guard force from scratch, I am most likely to take them as allies, which means having to shell out 500 points at least to even consider Pask is steep. It means I can't take a Vendetta or a blob without spending more on my allies than on my main.
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Post by: Leth
Then take something else lol.
Are we complaining that someone elses dex doesnt let me conveniently take what I want as allies?
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Post by: Mavnas
Pask and his unit are the most expensive HQ in all the codexes I'm aware of. Someone was claiming he was OP and under costed. If that were true I would be taking him.
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Post by: Inquisitor Jex
zoat wrote:I don't know if anyone mentioned this already, but the wording is that "The Tank Commander's tank is a character...."
So the precision shot thingy is not limited to Pask or the main gun for that matter.
Also this would imply that the Tank Commander's tank gets a 4+ "Look out sir" making Tank Commander's tank rather hard to kill.
I do know he can precise shot by himself, as a character; I used it a few times in my (only) game I played with the new codex, shooting on a chosen squad with a warpsmith (had a vanquisher and no vehicle in range), did managed to force a couple of look out sir rolls.
As for look out sir...he's AV 14, so if he got hit, my opponent had a few 6s on them' bones.
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Post by: Red Corsair
Ailaros was making the claim he (pask) was broken... I made counter points why he was good, but definitely expensive for what you got.
Omega decided to play alter ego on Ailaros behalf and ignore the context of my posts and assume I was saying Pask was rubbish when I clearly was advocating that he was cost appropriately and a situational character and not an auto include or broken.
He then got offended for no real reason when I an Mavnas asked him to remedy his terrible quoting convention, all the while he posts:
No no no. You don't get to write scathing criticism without praise and claim this. You effectively called the build a failure.
Basically telling me I don't have the right to my opinion in his opinion lol.
Oh and he accused someone else of whining.
@Omega, you have some good points but I feel you aren't respecting other posters opinions. Just quote them and make a counter claim, there's no need to pick over every line and tell others they can or can't share or to get personal.
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Post by: TheKbob
tomjoad wrote:
Not to get into the semantics of whether or not pg 4 applies to walkers, I'll point out that, at the least, many tournaments are reading this the same way as Ailaros is, and tourney FAQs are the best source we have to go on for a lot of these issues.
There's zero argument? This is the GW issued FAQ that says you may charge targets you cannot hurt. What discussion further exists?
Edit: The LVO and Adepticon FAQs state that you can charge walkers you cannot hurt, but not vehicles. Leave it to GW to contradict their own rule with their own FAQs. But per their own FAQ, which trumps BRB, they changed it completely. Nice going, GW.
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Post by: Hollismason
So what are peoples thoughts on Command Squad in Chimera w/ Aquila backed up by two Manticores and a gunline of 30 Imperial Guard w/ 3 Autocannons in front.
Everything with in 6 gets Preferred Enemy and you can put a priest and one or two psykers in there somewhere to get prescience on the Manticores
Worth it?
Command Squad w/ Chimera and Aquila is 185 minimum but you also get orders.
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Post by: daedalus
Mr.Omega wrote: Blacksails wrote: Red Corsair wrote:You really need to figure out how to quote better because I refuse to even read your posts anymore. I am sure you made some decent points in there, I just refuse to fish for them.
edit, maybe just cut and paste your rebuttal under the quote box.
Even different colours would be a huge step.
It'd be better if he just figured out how to block off each line he was responding to.
As it is, its just awful to read, I agree.
Please don't refer to me in the third person when I'm literally 2 posts above. It's awfully rude.
Whinge whinge whinge. If I take the time to answer each and every point precisely someone should spare the extra few seconds to find it, or better yet, discover the magical properties of that which is known as the drag and drop highlight one can use with the mouse.
See. Magic.
But nonetheless, I have now coloured my responses.
Actually, as a colorblind person who frequents these forums, the red-against-quote-box is literally one of the most painful color combinations to read I think I've ever seen. Yellow or a light green would be more pleasant, at least to me. I don't mind the inline responses in a different color (though separate quote boxes is the convention around here) but the color you select makes not just the person you are responding to have to suffer through it, but potentially anyone else trying to read along too. Bold or italics instead of color would be fantastic too, but I'd just be happy with something other than red.
I also find a strange amount of arrogance in you seeming to consider the person to which you're responding to almost be lucky enough for you to deign to respond to them. When writing, it's usually understood that you write to accommodate your audience, as they expend effort to understand you as much as you're expending effort to be heard, and you presumably want to be hear enough to make words to begin with, so you need to extend the olive branch and all. I may be old fashioned though.
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Post by: Red Corsair
 Leth wrote:Then take something else lol.
Are we complaining that someone elses dex doesnt let me conveniently take what I want as allies?
Sure he can and probably will take someone else, that's the point he was making, his cost is restrictive. I play guard as primary and secondary and I personally won't be field Pask either way as I don't think hes worth his points in my meta.
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Post by: daedalus
ON topic, I just got finished with a 1500 point game, well, massacre, and neither I nor my opponent were incredibly impressed.
He went first. Played a SM list with DA allies, and combined DW Assault with drop pods to put about 75% of his points on my side of the table turn one. I did an IG hybrid list with a few pyskers and priests thrown in. Also a Pask Punisher/Exterminator combo.
I think it was bottom of turn 2 by the time we called it.
Now, that was against a list designed to murder me. He had first turn. We wound up with killpoints and Hammer and Anvil, so everywhere I was was his killzone. And I played a totally lightweight list compared with what he was throwing at me. I did glean some things out of the mess though. It may or may not be objective at this point:
- Priests have waaay too gakky of leadership to be something you can depend on in melee.
- We were given cool new characters that dole out fearless and prescience and cool stuff like that, but we didn't get the point reduction that SM and other armies got to actually be able to USE those things without cutting anything else.
- Pask is probably too expensive for 1500 points.
- Hybrid lists probably can't work sub-2000 points, and probably aren't viable period. If you are running any chimeras, I just feel like you need to overwhelm target priority with so much AV12 that it can't all be stopped.
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Post by: Mavnas
Right, and that's a good point. Your local meta matters a lot. Right now, I'm thinking a lot about a 1k list for my escalation league, where my opponents are eldar, tau, necrons, 2x SM, DA, and CSM (so majority MEQ and not terribly squishy otherwise either other than the fire warriors and whatever those eldar guys were that won't be showing up at higher point values because they were filler). This is the reason that I initially disdained the Wyvern, came to like it in theory, then again realized it doesn't do much for me that's useful. (Against a guard army, using it to pummel a CCS or even PCS that's trying to hide could be amazing.)
I really like the idea of guard and orders, but I worry the units that give them will die almost instantly. Automatically Appended Next Post:  daedalus wrote:
- Priests have waaay too gakky of leadership to be something you can depend on in melee.
- We were given cool new characters that dole out fearless and prescience and cool stuff like that, but we didn't get the point reduction that SM and other armies got to actually be able to USE those things without cutting anything else.
- Pask is probably too expensive for 1500 points.
- Hybrid lists probably can't work sub-2000 points, and probably aren't viable period. If you are running any chimeras, I just feel like you need to overwhelm target priority with so much AV12 that it can't all be stopped.
Priests can be reliable only with Sisters as allies. I've also discovered that they're not worth it in smallish squads. I've always wondered about their poor leadership, but I realize the Sisters codex has two ways of working around that. (One that only works if it's your primary.) I'm a little surprised Inquisition and Guard got the priests but with none of the help making them work. I guess for a guard blob, fearless for 25 points is good enough and the inquisition priests are just straight worse, though you can take as many as you can afford. (Fun fact: for 480 points you can field 12 priests with plasma guns as a squad, scoring if Inquisition is your primary. All in guard and sisters and you can build a 20 plasmagun blob for 800 points... don't though... that would be really dumb.) In the Sisters' codex the priest is literally the only unit with an Ld under 8, and he's the guy that has to make the Ld checks by himself  .
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Post by: Red Corsair
You still get to use the highest LD in the unit. Only psychic checks specify that the psycher must use his base LD. So if you have a commissar or PP in the unit he tests on a 9 RAW.
I don't like priests for blobs in general however. I would rather be able to go to ground when I need to and get ordered back into the fight. Just because I have 30 or more guys doesn't mean I want to throw them away.
Conscripts are another animal though and I feel you always want a priest in there plus another character to hike the LD for hymn tests.
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Post by: ansacs
Red Corsair wrote:You still get to use the highest LD in the unit. Only psychic checks specify that the psycher must use his base LD. So if you have a commissar or PP in the unit he tests on a 9 RAW.
I don't like priests for blobs in general however. I would rather be able to go to ground when I need to and get ordered back into the fight. Just because I have 30 or more guys doesn't mean I want to throw them away.
Conscripts are another animal though and I feel you always want a priest in there plus another character to hike the LD for hymn tests.
I would agree. I really like the priest + primaris combo. The primaris gives the Ld, priest keeps the ablative wounds on the board, and the primaris can chuck around prescience.
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Post by: Razerous
Hollismason wrote:So what are peoples thoughts on Command Squad in Chimera w/ Aquila backed up by two Manticores and a gunline of 30 Imperial Guard w/ 3 Autocannons in front.
Everything with in 6 gets Preferred Enemy and you can put a priest and one or two psykers in there somewhere to get prescience on the Manticores
Worth it?
Command Squad w/ Chimera and Aquila is 185 minimum but you also get orders.
How valuable is the PE bubble hmm. PE with a bunch of punishers or/and T-prime party buses. Its a shorter ranged persistent buff, works on vehicles? No need to roll.
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Post by: Mavnas
The PE is nice because it says unit within 6", not model within 6". As long as any part of a blob or tank squad are within 6" the whole unit gets it. Automatically Appended Next Post:  ansacs wrote: Red Corsair wrote:You still get to use the highest LD in the unit. Only psychic checks specify that the psycher must use his base LD. So if you have a commissar or PP in the unit he tests on a 9 RAW.
I don't like priests for blobs in general however. I would rather be able to go to ground when I need to and get ordered back into the fight. Just because I have 30 or more guys doesn't mean I want to throw them away.
Conscripts are another animal though and I feel you always want a priest in there plus another character to hike the LD for hymn tests.
I would agree. I really like the priest + primaris combo. The primaris gives the Ld, priest keeps the ablative wounds on the board, and the primaris can chuck around prescience.
I stand corrected. Leadership tests are special that way. Can non-guard ICs be used for the orders Leadership test? I see nothing in the new codex that forbids it and RAW things that apply to the unit apply to everyone in the unit.
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Post by: Hollismason
I'll go ahead and make the prediction that what you'll see coming out of the codex in tournament lists is lists that abuse the ability of orders and psychic powers to negate or completely ignore specific aspects of the game such as rolling to hit.
Being able to mass boost your army into having a equivalent ballistic skill of 5 on base troops with rerolls , ignoring cover etc..
Is really the way I see it going. It's such a powerful mechanic to work around. That along with being able to "break " your FOC, something Imperial Guard already was good at it is kind of powerful.
They're now the most shooty gunline , maybe Tau can outgun them? Maybe?
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Post by: Mr.Omega
Red Corsair wrote:Ailaros was making the claim he (pask) was broken... I made counter points why he was good, but definitely expensive for what you got.
Omega decided to play alter ego on Ailaros behalf and ignore the context of my posts and assume I was saying Pask was rubbish when I clearly was advocating that he was cost appropriately and a situational character and not an auto include or broken.
He then got offended for no real reason when I an Mavnas asked him to remedy his terrible quoting convention, all the while he posts:
No no no. You don't get to write scathing criticism without praise and claim this. You effectively called the build a failure.
Basically telling me I don't have the right to my opinion in his opinion lol.
Oh and he accused someone else of whining.
@Omega, you have some good points but I feel you aren't respecting other posters opinions. Just quote them and make a counter claim, there's no need to pick over every line and tell others they can or can't share or to get personal.
Well, first of all, let's address the fact that you've essentially made this post to avoid refuting what I've said. Whilst I find it most satisfactory that it reads "I concede", the way in which you've chosen to avoid having said that is pretty adorable to watch.
You directly implied Pask was a failure, which I would equate to calling it rubbish.
Now, your personal complaints:
1) I answered Mavnas by saying I was quoting you.
2) You have got the ass on that quote so backwards it is unreal. Please re-read it. You were trying to trivialise the point you were making to discourage someone to refute you. I was merely pointing out that with a post like that you are not avoiding scrutiny.
It does not in any way imply I don't respect your opinion, or want you to stop speaking it. In fact, I want you to speak it. Instead of attempting to shut down the value of my opinion and using that as an excuse to not answer it- that is not respecting an opinion.
3) Because, well, that's exactly what it was?
4) I analyse every line to answer every point thoroughly because I see anything else as poor conduct in a debate- if not, I usually state what or where I concede. It's also so people can't misconstrue the same points in a lump of text so easily.
And yes, I probably have a persecution complex. So I personally apologise for my ranty parts last night to people in this thread. Is that sufficient?
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Post by: Mavnas
Meh, no matter how good your lasguns are, they're not hurting anything T7 or above or doing anything to any vehicle except with your special weapons.
Even at BS4.5 (no, 75% is not 83%, though it's close) you're still doing S3 AP - hits and you will have issues with concentrating your firepower if your enemy has template weapons to force your blobs to be more spread out. The army is very versatile, but you're still limited to one order per unit, and really not even that if the enemy has long range guns to knock out your command squads.
I think some people will make excellent use of all the options available, and other people will overinvest in support or build armies whose parts don't work well together and flop horribly. I feel like this IG codex require a lot better coordination between your various squads and support chars than slapping a few grav guns on some bikes and charging towards the enemy.
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Post by: Hollismason
In a game of odds, the person who can tip the odds the hardest through manipulation or strategy wins. It's why people gravitate towards units or "deathstars" if you want to call them that, that do not rely on chance because the odds are in your favor and you've removed the fundamental mechanic of the game from the equation for that particular unit or army. The fundamental strategy of every army in Warhammer 40k is to have better odds than your opponent has and negating chance.
Anything that manipulates that aspect of the game is "powerful" or "good" or "positive" or whatever adjective you want to use that decrees it to be a positive outcome or view.
When ever you play the game you are playing ultimately a game of chance, it's a fundamental part of the game. Manipulating that is what you do as a player, any time you can manipulate things into being more favorable or eliminate the portion of the game that is 'chance" increases your ability to win. The AM now has a lot of abilities that increase it's ability to manipulate chance that makes it stronger as army now , manipulation of that is going to be a key aspect stronger builds.
Or put simply. " You're leaving nothing to chance".
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Post by: Razerous
Because;
The Emperor Protects
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Post by: Happygrunt
Played a 2k team game yesterday. I am beginning to think the AM book has a lot of "trap" choices. What I mean is, there are a LOT of upgrades that sound really good, but it means that my CCS ended up around 200 points.
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Post by: Hollismason
Yeah CCS very quickly can become very expensive. They do have some nice built in Combo's though with Aquila , Master of Ordinance, and Preferred Enemy. It's unfortunate that CCS is so expensive but I generally think of them as just one "character" I don't know why. Anyway yeah, having a CCS in a Transport with a Enginseer, Aquila, MoO is pretty great.
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Post by: Mavnas
I mean if you want to spend all the points on the CCS buff bubble, sisters would allow you to add banners that either make everyone fearless (and give counter-attack?) or give +1 attacks and reroll a few types of leadership tests, both in a 12".
My problem with this approach is that trying to put this many units in a buff bubble is just asking for templates to be lobbed in your direction because they will probably scatter onto something.
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Post by: tomjoad
Mavnas wrote:I mean if you want to spend all the points on the CCS buff bubble, sisters would allow you to add banners that either make everyone fearless (and give counter-attack?) or give +1 attacks and reroll a few types of leadership tests, both in a 12".
My problem with this approach is that trying to put this many units in a buff bubble is just asking for templates to be lobbed in your direction because they will probably scatter onto something.
Although, I'd prefer my Guardsmen to have the option of going to ground, so the magic flag allowing rerolls to moral checks is preferable to just being Fearless. Plus, if I took a Sisters command squad, I'd have to take at least one other squad of Sisters...no thanks.
200 points for a CCS, Kurov's Aquila, Company Standard, and a Chimera to hide them in is pricey, but I suspect it will be worth it. I'm playing my first game with the new codex tonight, so I'll have a better idea soon.
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Post by: Hollismason
Please take a Master of Ordinance and tell us how that worked out for you. Also with the Aquila the Chimera itself get's Preferred Enemy as well which isn't to shabby.
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Post by: Mavnas
Yeah, the fearless banner is the cheap one since it comes on an HQ choice, the sisters command squad banner... I want to like it, I really do, but it's just so many points to be able to think about taking it.
Do inquisitor servo skulls reduce MoO scatter? Without those I'd imagine the MoO is only good against concentrations of force like a bunch of units clustered in a buff bubble.
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Post by: tomjoad
Mavnas wrote:...I'd imagine the MoO is only good against concentrations of force like a bunch of units clustered in a buff bubble.
Even if this is correct (and it may be, I really don't know), it's still probably worth 20 points. After all, when you face another IG army or even the odd Tau gun line, this could be an all star and having the edge in the semi-mirror match at such a low point cost is very valuable.
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Post by: Hollismason
I don't see why they wouldn't.
Okay new tactic to bring up. The Alpha Strike.
What's a good starting basis for an Alpha Strike Army?
The Cheap Route :
Primaris 50
Primaris 50
Manticore 170
Manticore 170
3 x Wyvern 195
Minimum Point Total : 635
2D3 ST 10 AP 4 , that with Prescience Reroll hit
12 ST 4 Twin Linked, Shred
Or
Expensive Route
2 Primaris Psykers 100
2 Basilisks 250
1 Manticore 170
3 Wyverns 195
Total : 715
Total : 2 St 9 AP 3 w/ minimum range of 36
1-3 ST 10 AP 4 with minimum range 24
12 St 4 Ignore cover, shredding, T
Basically what is the best combination that you can get out of indirect fire, alpha strikingwith ordinance with Imperial Guard for less that 800 points which is more efficient? Add in a gunline with H. Weapon Mortars and be near a CCS? 2 CCS w/ MoO and near a Aquila? Are master of ordance worth it if you have two CCSs with them?
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Post by: easysauce
honestly... with over 140 regular GI, 6+ HWTeams, and some tanks thrown in (almost maxxed out pskers preists and inquisitors)... people have been having a lot of trouble with target saturation...
as well as underestimating all that st 3 shooting and CCW...
case in point, just played some nids, and the conscripts and GI blob were walking through tyrants like butter... sure, I need 4's or even 5's to hit, and 6's to wound... but i get to reroll them ALL, and there is a feth ton of tem.
+ all I need is one wound from a psyker/INQ guy to get through (and with the choice of force axe, sword, and mace, odds are at least ONE wound will get through) where as all my casualties are easy to shrug off.
I have been finding that the HWT's combine with precience and orders are just owning the table... sure they die to a lightbreese, but that means the rest of the army is unmolested.
it seems to be, that if I get first turn, I auto win, even with only 6 HWTS.... they just wreck everything with re rolls to hit and wound/pen or ignore cover. Since i only have 4 senior officer orders, I actually plan on losing two HWT's at least, so it takes a lot of fire power to actually get rid of these guys.
which again, is great, my CCS's with snipers, bolter, and MOO have been untouched last few games because they just dont get shot at like the blobs/HWT's do.
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Post by: Sargow
I played my first game last night with a 30 man guard squad with yarrick, a priest, prymaris psyker and inquisitor with all 3 gernades. It was one of the funniest things i have seen. st4 4 guards men tore a bike squad apart. with the 4++ rerol save in Close combat auto hitting and wounding on 4's. Hammerhands makes that squad scary.
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Post by: Crablezworth
Codex psyker blob, I am le sad.
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Post by: Hollismason
Yeah, the Alpha Striking Imperial Guard of Death gun line seems like it's going to not be a very pleasant army to play against. Especially first turning it with Coteaz.
Just trying to figure out the best 1000 point gun line to buy... with support from CCS or maybe a Tank Commander?
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Post by: Red Corsair
Well I play iron warriors cants as space marines and I am allying in an AM penal colony and I realized how much more deadly a bike chaptermaster is in a blob. Basically he starts in the blob and you use Yarrick to give the unit fire on my target testing on ld10 ( CM) and you prescience the whole unit and now you have a twin linked strength 10 AP1 ignores cover barrage with unlimited range, and with SM as primary you can double this by adding a second chapter master. Even with IG as secondary your getting up to 13 scoring units per platoon if you want, and you can get 4 storm trooper squads in one platoon. then with vehicle squads... and then.. and then... You get my point. IG as secondary may as well by primary, so allying with SM gets you CM which are better then any commissar or priest and basically come with their own turn 1 deathstrike missile that is easily buffed. Choose white scars CT and now your blob and conscripts have HnR 
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Post by: easysauce
yeah... IG as allies has a huge amount of potential, as you basically still get acess to 100% of the codex even as allies since the squadrons pretty much nullify the 1 slot choice restriction.
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Post by: UlrikDecado
ORDNANCE, ITS MASTER OF ORDNANCE, NOT ORDINANCE!!!! 
Ahem...sorry, it has to go out...could not hold it any longer...
For the CCS, my way is cheap, but effective way. So no extra relics that burn with my T3 guys. But yes to Master of ORDNANCE...yeah...better...I give him as friend Mortar team so CCS can be digged out of LOS and carapace, so the bodies hold a little longer. Maaaaaybe vox, because mine CCS should shout orders, provide small target and drop hilariously strong and scattering pieplates. No heroic charges, no challenges and when such challenge comes, its time for Master of OrdNANCE to stoically accept it and draw his big knife and fight for the Colonel.
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Post by: daedalus
I can't speak for YOUR officers, but mine are exclusively demanding that the cannons shell the enemy with municipal bills. EXCLUSIVELY.
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Post by: Hollismason
This would be why my opponents are angry I insist they pay my water bill when I play them.
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Post by: tjnorwoo
I just played the closest game of 40k in my life! It was IG vs Tyranids.
A unit of 30 guardsmen killed 2 blobs of gaunts in close combat, and a carnifex with shooting. The priest and psycker made them the ultimate tanking unit. If it wasn't for the fact that the tyranid prime was near unkillable to the guards attacks the guard would have annahilated them.
The warlord traits are so awesome. The IG player had draconian discipline and in a shootout that ability is invaluable, better than stubborn.
The game ended with the IG warlord's command squad as well as the platoon command squad killing a hive guard blocking the final objective. If the game hadn't ended that round then the Nids carnifex and prime would have won it.
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Post by: Ailaros
daedalus wrote:
I can't speak for YOUR officers, but mine are exclusively demanding that the cannons shell the enemy with municipal bills. EXCLUSIVELY.
That's why the master of ordnance can't move and shoot at the same time. He's too busy filling out the artillery support request form in triplicate.
Hollismason wrote:Yeah, the Alpha Striking Imperial Guard of Death gun line seems like it's going to not be a very pleasant army to play against. Especially first turning it with Coteaz.
Yeah, I really hope the new guard doesn't turn into leafblower, except with platoons hiding behind an aegis instead of mechvets hiding behind an aegis.
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Post by: Hollismason
I could see a Ravengard or White Scars Space Marine Bike list combined with Imperial Guard as being absolutely brutal when allied in. Mobile, able to get in combat and get out, Grav Guns, Commander that is Nigh indestructible etc.. the mobility and toughness is what's going to come into play really though. Grav Guns are excellent ; plus hit and run ; or scouting ahead on first turn.
Seem's it worked really well with a Gun Line, Manticore list. There's probably a Sweet Spot for the points on bikes but being able to take up to 3 ish bike squads is pretty nasty.
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Post by: alarmingrick
What about us that want to stay more in the Mech role? Priest, Commissar and Psyker discussion has been focused mostly on Foot/blob roles.
How does the "revised" Techpriest Enginseer fit with the mobile IG/AM lists of the new dex? Or do they?
Right now I'm thinking of adding a couple of the TPE and a couple of PP to my list. With the increase in the Chimera price tag and drop in the Vet squads
they kind of wash. But that still leaves ~100 points (mol) to come up with from a list that usually can be tight point wise anyway. Does anyone else see a
big plus, or any viable ideas about Mech IG? Are the TPE, PP and Astropath of any help to the Mech lists?
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Post by: obsidiankatana
Price jump of Vendettas hurts Mech quite a bit, imo. Stronghold Assault leaves blobguard and gunline with plenty of options, but to match the mobility of mech you sort of HAVE to take Vendettas for AA. That said, this opens up a position for the Officer of the Fleet. That aside, Techpriests for the Chimeras have some potential. Keep them moving, add a Pfist model to three squads, HF one squad and Multi-Laser another with PotMS. Etc.
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Post by: alarmingrick
 obsidiankatana wrote:Price jump of Vendettas hurts Mech quite a bit, imo. Stronghold Assault leaves blobguard and gunline with plenty of options, but to match the mobility of mech you sort of HAVE to take Vendettas for AA. That said, this opens up a position for the Officer of the Fleet. That aside, Techpriests for the Chimeras have some potential. Keep them moving, add a Pfist model to three squads, HF one squad and Multi-Laser another with PotMS. Etc.
Plus if you run Pask/tank commander I feel the TPE could help keep them around and PotMS shenanigans. TPE could help keep vets mobile. The Vendetta hit we knew was coming. At this point I'm just biting the bullet and budgeting in the price of 2.
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Post by: daedalus
Ailaros wrote: daedalus wrote:
I can't speak for YOUR officers, but mine are exclusively demanding that the cannons shell the enemy with municipal bills. EXCLUSIVELY.
That's why the master of ordnance can't move and shoot at the same time. He's too busy filling out the artillery support request form in triplicate.
I need a Futurama Hermes Conrad miniature for a MoO now.
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Post by: Red Corsair
In regard to mech guard:
Well a pair of CCS with OoTF pretty much handles your AA IMO.
-2 to their reserve rolls is CRIPPLING to heavy flier builds like cron air.
Then you only need 2 vendettas rather then 3, so theirs your missing points.
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Post by: Inquisitor Jex
Red Corsair wrote:In regard to mech guard:
Well a pair of CCS with OoTF pretty much handles your AA IMO.
-2 to their reserve rolls is CRIPPLING to heavy flier builds like cron air.
Then you only need 2 vendettas rather then 3, so theirs your missing points.
True, but you still need to make 2 Ld test at..7 if I'm not mistaken, which is somewhat shakey to rely on it to go off every turn.
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Post by: alarmingrick
Inquisitor Jex wrote: Red Corsair wrote:In regard to mech guard:
Well a pair of CCS with OoTF pretty much handles your AA IMO.
-2 to their reserve rolls is CRIPPLING to heavy flier builds like cron air.
Then you only need 2 vendettas rather then 3, so theirs your missing points.
True, but you still need to make 2 Ld test at..7 if I'm not mistaken, which is somewhat shakey to rely on it to go off every turn.
Being in a CCS would it be tested on the OotF or the Co.commander's ld?
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Post by: Hollismason
Yeah, I'm super curious about blob squads now.
1 Platoon Command Squad w/ Autocannons 40
4 Infantry Platoons w/ auto cannons 240
50 Conscripts 150
Priest 25
x2
Total : 455 Points .. 910 minimum
180 + models...
Kind of curious how this would work. I mean okay with a 900 point limit on infantry just basic dudes, what's the most efficient break down for Platoons and CCS?
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Post by: ClockworkZion
alarmingrick wrote:Inquisitor Jex wrote: Red Corsair wrote:In regard to mech guard:
Well a pair of CCS with OoTF pretty much handles your AA IMO.
-2 to their reserve rolls is CRIPPLING to heavy flier builds like cron air.
Then you only need 2 vendettas rather then 3, so theirs your missing points.
True, but you still need to make 2 Ld test at..7 if I'm not mistaken, which is somewhat shakey to rely on it to go off every turn.
Being in a CCS would it be tested on the OotF or the Co.commander's ld?
Just says "leadership test" so unless GW says otherwise: highest leadership goes.
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Post by: Red Corsair
2 LD 9 tests is pretty easy honestly, your at least pinging them with one, add a commissar and now its a 10.
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Post by: Trickstick
Red Corsair wrote:2 LD 9 tests is pretty easy honestly, your at least pinging them with one, add a commissar and now its a 10.
Only Lord Commissars get LD10, and you wouldn't get the second CCS if you took one. You could take Creed, but he isn't very good for mech.
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Post by: Dannyevilguy
Any good Forgeworld potential with the new codex?
Biggest one I am seeing is giving the Ignores Cover order to the Artillery Carriage. Str 9 AP 3 Ignores Covers is a nice replacement for the Collossus.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
Well you no need it for the missing Ordnance Battery guns. Plus Autocannon Chimeras. So it still belongs I think.
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Post by: Mavnas
Red Corsair wrote:2 LD 9 tests is pretty easy honestly, your at least pinging them with one, add a commissar and now its a 10.
If by commissar you mean inquisitor, then yes. That's your only cheap option for Ld 10 that doesn't take one of your guard HQ slots..
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Post by: Happygrunt
 Dannyevilguy wrote:Any good Forgeworld potential with the new codex?
Biggest one I am seeing is giving the Ignores Cover order to the Artillery Carriage. Str 9 AP 3 Ignores Covers is a nice replacement for the Collossus.
Don't know. FW has said they will be doing a big IG update soon-ish, so we will see.
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Post by: Mr.Omega
Mavnas wrote: Red Corsair wrote:2 LD 9 tests is pretty easy honestly, your at least pinging them with one, add a commissar and now its a 10.
If by commissar you mean inquisitor, then yes. That's your only cheap option for Ld 10 that doesn't take one of your guard HQ slots..
Except you can't put that Inquisitor in any of your Chimera/Taurox transports in a Mech list, and the CCS is extremely useful to have supporting the advance in its own Chimera, especially with an Astropath and Senior Officer Orders.
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Post by: tomjoad
I played my first game with the new book last night and all I can say is" Geez...these guys are good."
Game was against Eldar, and my friend is still pretty new to 6th edition, so I took a list that I thought was good, but not super-charged-mega-good. I failed most of my orders on turn one, failed my psychic checks, had to fire almost my entire army at his rangers to get first blood, and then lost my Primaris straight away on his first turn. After that, though...carnage ensued. Pask was unstoppable and everybody else preformed as well as you'd expect and he was tabled on my turn 5. (The MoO killed two Dire Avengers the whole game and missed everything else.)
For friendly games in the future, I think I'll have to tone this army down. The dice were in my favor some, but this was overkill any way you look at it.
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Post by: Kain
tomjoad wrote:I played my first game with the new book last night and all I can say is" Geez...these guys are good."
Game was against Eldar, and my friend is still pretty new to 6th edition, so I took a list that I thought was good, but not super-charged-mega-good. I failed most of my orders on turn one, failed my psychic checks, had to fire almost my entire army at his rangers to get first blood, and then lost my Primaris straight away on his first turn. After that, though...carnage ensued. Pask was unstoppable and everybody else preformed as well as you'd expect and he was tabled on my turn 5. (The MoO killed two Dire Avengers the whole game and missed everything else.)
For friendly games in the future, I think I'll have to tone this army down. The dice were in my favor some, but this was overkill any way you look at it.
Winning in spite of virtually everything that could go wrong going wrong on the first turn?
Impressive.
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Post by: daedalus
 Kain wrote:
Winning in spite of virtually everything that could go wrong going wrong on the first turn?
Impressive.
He killed a squad of rangers first turn. It didn't go THAT wrong for him.
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Post by: Kain
daedalus wrote: Kain wrote:
Winning in spite of virtually everything that could go wrong going wrong on the first turn?
Impressive.
He killed a squad of rangers first turn. It didn't go THAT wrong for him.
By firing just about his entire army at it.
That kind of counts as going wrong given the alpha strike capacity the guard can offer.
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Post by: daedalus
Kain wrote:
By firing just about his entire army at it.
That kind of counts as going wrong given the alpha strike capacity the guard can offer.
Eh, maybe. He never said he actually went first. Assuming he went second and a large enough size squad of Rangers with Fortune, I could actually see them being almost unkillable. Hell, even a large enough size squad of Rangers without Fortune at far enough range out would be hard to kill if you can't get into lasgun range. That's likely 2+ saves you're looking at there.
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Post by: Mavnas
Seems like a wyvern or 3 would make short work of them.
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Post by: daedalus
Mavnas wrote:Seems like a wyvern or 3 would make short work of them.
A hellhound would potentially be better still.
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Post by: Ailaros
alarmingrick wrote:What about us that want to stay more in the Mech role?
Things will stay roughly the same. Mech guard is still easily going to be the strongest way to run a guard army. A squad of melta mechvets costs virtually the same as it did before, and while it did lose a special weapon shooting out the top hatch, it also gained much cheaper vehicle upgrades, much cheaper doctrines, and access to better buffing through techpriests, primarises, and better orders for those times they get out.
Meanwhile, mech guard also gained VASTLY cheaper russes, and much cheaper sentinels as well, while on the other hand, there is now a fast transport for certain units, and hellhounds &co. are the same as they were before.
Foot guard got less useless, but so long as mech gunlines are the strongest way to play 40k, they're going to be the strongest way to play guard.
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Post by: Biophysical
You know, 2 Dire Avengers is still worth the points for a MoO.
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Post by: daedalus
Ailaros wrote:alarmingrick wrote:What about us that want to stay more in the Mech role?
Things will stay roughly the same. Mech guard is still easily going to be the strongest way to run a guard army. A squad of melta mechvets costs virtually the same as it did before, and while it did lose a special weapon shooting out the top hatch, it also gained much cheaper vehicle upgrades, much cheaper doctrines, and access to better buffing through techpriests, primarises, and better orders for those times they get out.
Meanwhile, mech guard also gained VASTLY cheaper russes, and much cheaper sentinels as well, while on the other hand, there is now a fast transport for certain units, and hellhounds &co. are the same as they were before.
Foot guard got less useless, but so long as mech gunlines are the strongest way to play 40k, they're going to be the strongest way to play guard.
Would you say that hybrid and mech platoon are both effectively dead?
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Post by: easysauce
Trickstick wrote: Red Corsair wrote:2 LD 9 tests is pretty easy honestly, your at least pinging them with one, add a commissar and now its a 10.
Only Lord Commissars get LD10, and you wouldn't get the second CCS if you took one. You could take Creed, but he isn't very good for mech.
this is why my preists go in the blobs along side the inquisitors.... ld 10 all the way baby... also more precience and force weapon goodness, ant at I 4 too!
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Post by: Ailaros
daedalus wrote:Would you say that hybrid and mech platoon are both effectively dead?
Well, I would, but that's likely only because I didn't like hybrid in the first place. Doubling down on weaknesses without adding strength.
Certainly if you were running a foot+russ list your army just got stronger because of the cheaper russes, mostly. Much of the boosts to foot guard come in the Ld department, which wasn't their weakness in the first place.
Mech platoons are slightly interesting, though. They didn't lose anything from the chimera hatch change and actually gained, thanks to the new lasgun port rules. But of course, then lost because chimeras got more expensive, but gained because their upgrades cost less. I guess for mech platoons, it's roughly a wash.
The biggest loss, though, is the loss of al'rahem letting a giant wad of them outflank. That one will be missed.
Not to say you couldn't do an updated version of nasguard, though...
CCS - 2x melta, OotF, chimera
Priest - plasma
Priest - plasma
Priest - plasma
PCS - 4x melta guns, chimera
PIS - melta, kraks, chimera
PIS - melta, kraks,chimera
PCS - 4x melta guns, chimera
PIS - melta, kraks,chimera
PIS - melta, kraks,chimera
Hellhound - multimelta
Hellhound - multimelta
Devil dog - multimelta
For 1500 points.
The idea is that everything charges forwards turn 1, and then a small amount of melta and plasma and stuff go zap, but the infantry really get stronger once they leave the cans as they gain orders and starting on turn 3 rerollable krak grenades against vehicles. In the meantime the vehicles ram or flamer everything.
I don't know if 56 guard infantry models are going to cut it, though. I suppose I'm not a mech platoon commander, though.
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Post by: daedalus
That's interesting.
This gives me the idea of supplementing the lack of the second gun in the IS with a priest. That still gives them Vet levels of firepower (though at reduced BS) while still running them SLIGHTLY cheaper and more numerous.
I will have to think about it. I'm going to have a game with a friend on Monday. After my hybrid fiasco, I'm probably either going to throw mech or foot guard at him. If I go mech, it'll probalby be strongly based off of this.
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Post by: Valhalla130
I'm not that great at figuring out which units work well together. Could I take a list that would have sentinels (armored with LC's) and hellhounds in it, and it be okay?
I really just want to play with all my toys. That's why I love the IG. I have some Leman Russ, chimeras, infantry, but nowhere the amount I see in some of these lists, some Rough Riders, which I will paint up one day and play with. And I have one basilisk, two griffins, and a Demolisher I have to include. Without using the griffins, I suppose I would need to buy at least one more basilisk, or something.
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Post by: Kain
 Valhalla130 wrote:I'm not that great at figuring out which units work well together. Could I take a list that would have sentinels (armored with LC's) and hellhounds in it, and it be okay?
I really just want to play with all my toys. That's why I love the IG. I have some Leman Russ, chimeras, infantry, but nowhere the amount I see in some of these lists, some Rough Riders, which I will paint up one day and play with. And I have one basilisk, two griffins, and a Demolisher I have to include. Without using the griffins, I suppose I would need to buy at least one more basilisk, or something.
Hounds and armored sentinels are totally workable.
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Post by: Mavnas
I'm not a fan of giving priests a plasma gun unless you can guarantee they will also get a reroll. That's almost a 1 in 6 chance he will kill himself and leave his unit not fearless. Having vets with plasma gun is cheaper at better BS.
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Post by: Hollismason
I asked earlier but whats a good like 800 to 950 point gun line? Not including Psykers. CCS , PCS etc..
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Post by: Inquisitor Jex
Mavnas wrote:I'm not a fan of giving priests a plasma gun unless you can guarantee they will also get a reroll. That's almost a 1 in 6 chance he will kill himself and leave his unit not fearless. Having vets with plasma gun is cheaper at better BS.
I hear that; he got equal chance of burning himself than he is to precise shot his shots...I'd rather go with the free autogun, since hey, it's free!
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Post by: Ailaros
Yeah. He has only a 1 in 12 chance to kill himself per shot, and the reason why you put a priest in a mech PIS isn't to give them fearless - they'll get wiped out long before they have to worry about leadership, and you don't make many pinning checks in a transport.
The priest does two things. The first, as mentioned, is to give a mech PIS a second special weapon to shoot out the hatch. The second is that it's a cheap way (not counting the plasma gun) to give the squad extra oomph once it gets somewhere.
It seems to me that the point of having a big swarm of infantry squads in chimeras is going to involve them swarming somewhere and likely getting out, which the priest will help better with.
Not so much for vets, who don't need the extra slot, and are going to be used much more defensively and prefer not to leave their ride at all.
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Post by: daedalus
Hrm. I might be on to something, here. Camo cloaks don't give stealth, they give a +1 to cover (IIRC).
Can any of the independent characters get camo cloaks still?
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Post by: Biophysical
Yep, it's 10 points for anyone with access to "special issue equipment".
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Post by: easysauce
daedalus wrote:Hrm. I might be on to something, here. Camo cloaks don't give stealth, they give a +1 to cover ( IIRC).
Can any of the independent characters get camo cloaks still?
yeah camo cloaks are pretty nifty, I really like how them and carapce armour are very cost effective right now.
not sure how effective they will be on characters since it wont confer to the unit though.
combined with ogryns, you can get a 3+ cover out in the open pretty much, and keep moving. heck GTG for a 2+ if you really need.
same with camo nets, being a straight up +1 is really nice.
If you are able to alpha strike out their "no cover" stuff pretty quick it just gets mean.
personally though, 7.5 pts for a BS 4 guards man with a 4+ is pretty good, I just wish there were some good carapace models that didnt have the silly hot shot las guns modeled on them :(
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Post by: daedalus
I'm going home, but I wanted to post this to see what people thought. I'm not sure how serious I am about it, but I thought I would clown around with the codex a little.
Shrike, Ahazra Redth (FW), 50 guardsmen with 5 plasma, 5 priests with 5 plasma guns, 5 plasma pistols
975 points.
57 bodies, 25 plasma shots within 12". It's a troop choice with a psyker with access to Divination and Telepathy. it has a 2+ cover save in terrain, and a 4+ save in the open. Oh, and it can infiltrate.
You can't shoot 50 bodies with 2+ cover saves directly very well. You can't exactly assault it, especially if you dump extra points for power weapons, and I'm not sure about yours, but my meta doesn't include lots of flamers....
My question, can anyone do it cheaper and better?
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Post by: Mavnas
Ailaros wrote:Yeah. He has only a 1 in 12 chance to kill himself per shot, and the reason why you put a priest in a mech PIS isn't to give them fearless - they'll get wiped out long before they have to worry about leadership, and you don't make many pinning checks in a transport.
The priest does two things. The first, as mentioned, is to give a mech PIS a second special weapon to shoot out the hatch. The second is that it's a cheap way (not counting the plasma gun) to give the squad extra oomph once it gets somewhere.
It seems to me that the point of having a big swarm of infantry squads in chimeras is going to involve them swarming somewhere and likely getting out, which the priest will help better with.
Not so much for vets, who don't need the extra slot, and are going to be used much more defensively and prefer not to leave their ride at all.
I need to do the math here, but I'm almost certain with such a tiny squad of S3 dudes, his best bet is to take a mace and give himself smash for the 3-4 S5AP2 attacks rather than trying to buff the squad.
40 points to have a second special weapon to shoot at BS3, is not a good use of points. Heck, for 50 points you could have a primaris psyker ML1, take the primaris in biomancy and get 4 shots at S4 AP2. Perils is a lot less likely than Gets Hot.
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Post by: Raxmei
Oh fudge, the change to camo gear means the Lord Commissar's magic cloak that hides an entire massive block of infantry no longer works. Not that I ever did that anyway.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
Raxmei wrote:Oh fudge, the change to camo gear means the Lord Commissar's magic cloak that hides an entire massive block of infantry no longer works. Not that I ever did that anyway.
That combo is probably why it changed too.
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Post by: Biophysical
Priest doesn't get a mace. Too bad.
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Post by: Mavnas
Wow... my mistake. leave it to GW to give three armies a model with the same statline, abilities, and name and then make their options different. The inquisition one isn't an IC, the guard one can't take the full selection of melee weapons. Although if you activate smash and make the special attack you still get S6 AP2, you just lose an attack in the process.
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Post by: Ailaros
Yeah, the inability to take priest melee options is a huge drag.
But don't gripe about how they can't take power maces. That's a flashlight with dying batteries next to the horrid, blazing inferno of how they lost eviscerators.
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Post by: Inquisitor Jex
Well, at least they strike at ST6 AP2 AND...at initiative 3 as well.
Granted Init 3 is nothing to sneeze at..but know alot of AP2 weapons at hit at init 3?
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Post by: Biophysical
They're the 40kiest of all weapons.
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Post by: Mavnas
Ailaros wrote:Yeah, the inability to take priest melee options is a huge drag.
But don't gripe about how they can't take power maces. That's a flashlight with dying batteries next to the horrid, blazing inferno of how they lost eviscerators.
I used to think that way too, but I'm coming to the realization that maces may just be better if you're going to Smash. The only thing I could see is if the +2 gets added in before the x2, then you're only getting S8 AP2 instead of S10 AP2, but you're getting it at initiative. Just think... a month ago, I still thought taking melta bombs on a priest was a good way to fight a knight...
I just re-read the BRB FAQ today. I had been operating on the assumption that you only got 2 Smashing Attacks ever... I was wrong.
Q: The rulebook says that you halve your Attacks characteristic if you perform a Smash attack. However, if a Monstrous Creature has an uneven number of Attacks, (3 for example), but has charged that turn, does it receive the bonus Attack for charging before or after halving its Attacks? (p42)
A: You halve the model’s Attacks characteristic first, then apply any additional modifiers. In the example above, the model would halve its Attacks first (rounding up to 2), then receive a bonus Attack for charging
Sadly priests only get 2 attacks base, but they do have two weapons and can charge for an extra +1, meaning 3 Smash Attacks per priest. Smashing attacks also lets them re-roll attempts to penetrate. Now... thinking about it, I'm thinking the mace only gets them to S8 (+2 added after doubling, right?)... getting them to S10 would be hard, but 3 S8 AP2 attacks, reroll to pen will make a lot of vehicles sad.
Their max theoretical, I spent too many points on this configuration would get them to 4 S10 AP2 attacks per turn. At that point they do on average 4 * .75 * 8/9 = 2 2/3 (glancing + pen) + 4 * .75 * 2/3 * 1/3 * 2 (destroyed result) 1 1/3, 4 HP to a knight on a charge each. At I3, which means no stomp if you kill it. Yeah... guard got the short end of this stick with the inability to give them a proper melee weapon (since the guard version can never be strong enough to hurt a knight in melee). Of course if an opponent let me knock over his knight with 2 priests' worth of melee attacks... well, it would probably be because he thought the melta guns in nearby units were the real threat.
Is there a way to give non- IC priests or a guard blob furious charge? The only thing I can think of right now is Celestians with their act of faith, but that only works on AM and SoB priests not in the inquisition guys, which someone limits the number of priests. (I find with units like this that require multiple buffs, redundancy might be important.)
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Post by: Leth
You can take a inquisitor and give them hammerhand(which kicks in before multipliers)
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Post by: obsidiankatana
Kor'sarro Khan.
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Post by: Mavnas
Leth wrote:You can take a inquisitor and give them hammerhand(which kicks in before multipliers)
I thought it didn't? If it does, that fixes everything. Of course if the mace kicks in before multipliers that makes them not dependent on anything except random troops to eat blows for them (yay, 1 million guardsmen!!) and someone with a Ld score better than 7 (the inquisitor also solves that one). Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually the inquisitor means the IG priests can also get their smashing attacks to respectable levels.
Remember, with pile in, you only need to be about 4-5" away from the enemy after the charge. Just close enough to get within 2" of a model actually in base to base after you pile in 3" more.
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Post by: Lothar
Mavnas - Priest can take mace...he just have close combat weapon, which means S3
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Post by: Leth
It used to be that hammerhand was before multipliers(In the GK book). However not sure since the wording in inquisition is different.
I think it still does because it modifies the profile, not a addition
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Post by: TheLionOfTheForest
Mavnas wrote: Leth wrote:You can take a inquisitor and give them hammerhand(which kicks in before multipliers)
I thought it didn't? If it does, that fixes everything. Of course if the mace kicks in before multipliers that makes them not dependent on anything except random troops to eat blows for them (yay, 1 million guardsmen!!) and someone with a Ld score better than 7 (the inquisitor also solves that one).
I believe the hammerhand confusion comes from the fact that hammerhand in codex:grey knights kicks in before multipliers and hammerhand from codex:inquisition kicks in after multipliers.
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Post by: Ailaros
So, thinking about the bolters in the other thread, I was just thinking about plasma pistols. Yes, they got more expensive, and yes, you can no longer dual wield them for great justice, and yes, you no longer have an extra chimera slot to fire out of with a vet squad...
But what about for mech platoons? You only have two fire ports, but you also only have one special weapon. Would it be worth the cost in this case?
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Post by: alarmingrick
Ailaros wrote:So, thinking about the bolters in the other thread, I was just thinking about plasma pistols. Yes, they got more expensive, and yes, you can no longer dual wield them for great justice, and yes, you no longer have an extra chimera slot to fire out of with a vet squad...
But what about for mech platoons? You only have two fire ports, but you also only have one special weapon. Would it be worth the cost in this case?
If it was on a bs4 model or better, maybe. A bs 3 sgt in a pis, hell no.
I'm not going to pay premium prices just to help my enemy kill my troops.
Being in a mech pis there's probably less of a chance for a reroll.
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Post by: Leth
I would rather spend less points and snap fire an autocannon than fire a plasma pistol.
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Post by: NuggzTheNinja
 easysauce wrote: daedalus wrote:Hrm. I might be on to something, here. Camo cloaks don't give stealth, they give a +1 to cover ( IIRC).
Can any of the independent characters get camo cloaks still?
yeah camo cloaks are pretty nifty, I really like how them and carapce armour are very cost effective right now.
not sure how effective they will be on characters since it wont confer to the unit though.
combined with ogryns, you can get a 3+ cover out in the open pretty much, and keep moving. heck GTG for a 2+ if you really need.
same with camo nets, being a straight up +1 is really nice.
If you are able to alpha strike out their "no cover" stuff pretty quick it just gets mean.
personally though, 7.5 pts for a BS 4 guards man with a 4+ is pretty good, I just wish there were some good carapace models that didnt have the silly hot shot las guns modeled on them :(
Thought about using scouts?
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Post by: alarmingrick
 NuggzTheNinja wrote: easysauce wrote: daedalus wrote:Hrm. I might be on to something, here. Camo cloaks don't give stealth, they give a +1 to cover ( IIRC).
Can any of the independent characters get camo cloaks still?
yeah camo cloaks are pretty nifty, I really like how them and carapce armour are very cost effective right now.
not sure how effective they will be on characters since it wont confer to the unit though.
combined with ogryns, you can get a 3+ cover out in the open pretty much, and keep moving. heck GTG for a 2+ if you really need.
same with camo nets, being a straight up +1 is really nice.
If you are able to alpha strike out their "no cover" stuff pretty quick it just gets mean.
personally though, 7.5 pts for a BS 4 guards man with a 4+ is pretty good, I just wish there were some good carapace models that didnt have the silly hot shot las guns modeled on them :(
Thought about using scouts?
If they weren't so " SM scout" looking, I'd agree. Another, expensive option could be using the new Scions with different arms. But it could get pricey fast.
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Post by: ultimentra
Go with forgeworld Cadian Hostile Environment troopers, those guys are perfect for carapace troopers. You could also take the gas masks you get with the command box and have those signify use of Carapace. If you combine a gas mask from the Command box and the "sunglasses" cadian head from the Heavy Weapon box, it looks much like a Kasrkin visored head, giving it the carapace look.
You could also go with 3rd party chests or heads. Not sure how anal your LGS is about things like that.
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Post by: NuggzTheNinja
alarmingrick wrote: NuggzTheNinja wrote: easysauce wrote: daedalus wrote:Hrm. I might be on to something, here. Camo cloaks don't give stealth, they give a +1 to cover ( IIRC).
Can any of the independent characters get camo cloaks still?
yeah camo cloaks are pretty nifty, I really like how them and carapce armour are very cost effective right now.
not sure how effective they will be on characters since it wont confer to the unit though.
combined with ogryns, you can get a 3+ cover out in the open pretty much, and keep moving. heck GTG for a 2+ if you really need.
same with camo nets, being a straight up +1 is really nice.
If you are able to alpha strike out their "no cover" stuff pretty quick it just gets mean.
personally though, 7.5 pts for a BS 4 guards man with a 4+ is pretty good, I just wish there were some good carapace models that didnt have the silly hot shot las guns modeled on them :(
Thought about using scouts?
If they weren't so " SM scout" looking, I'd agree. Another, expensive option could be using the new Scions with different arms. But it could get pricey fast.
I don't have pictures...looked for a while...but it's pretty easy to de- SM them by shaving off the chest eagles, swapping heads, and adding some pouches to cover the chest pieces.
Think something like this (pic not mine):
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Post by: Ailaros
For the PIS, you're talking about a model that can get precise shot with a plasma pistol, and puts out a lot more firepower at close range for the squad firing out the hatch.
And yeah, vet doctrines are so cheap now, that I could easily see people doubling up both camo cloaks and carapace armor, which makes SM scouts a great model to start with.
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Post by: Hollismason
Your basically paying 8.5 points for a model that has Camo Cloaks , 4+ armour which is a pretty good deal honestly.
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Post by: Lothar
Hollismason wrote:Your basically paying 8.5 points for a model that has Camo Cloaks , 4+ armour which is a pretty good deal honestly.
The problem is that model only has a humble lasgun.
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Post by: Ailaros
Yes, but he's an abblative shield for 3 guys with plasma guns and two guys with a lascannon.
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