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Not all models get access to LoS! Like the meltagunner in the squad. Also, not everybody doesn't care about Ap5.

1 point for a better than 1 in 6 chance per round of shooting to clip out a special weapon? I mean, if you had a blob of 30 dudes, 3 points is enough to give you a most expected result of a precise shot per round of shooting. With an Ap5 weapon.

Almost seems better than sniper rifles (well, against regular infantry).

 Ailaros wrote:
Not all models get access to LoS! Like the meltagunner in the squad. Also, not everybody doesn't care about Ap5.

1 point for a better than 1 in 6 chance per round of shooting to clip out a special weapon? I mean, if you had a blob of 30 dudes, 3 points is enough to give you a most expected result of a precise shot per round of shooting. With an Ap5 weapon.

Almost seems better than sniper rifles (well, against regular infantry).

Okay, sure, but those are very specific instances. You do have to hit and roll a six and then roll to wound on what is more than likely one shot.

I mean, I don't see an issue not taking bolters, but I only would if I had extra points or if I was building a CCS (my fluff rule of thumb is that the CO should have good equitment).

Yes, I know odds are long for a single weapon, but that's why they're cheap, and you can take them in multiples.

I mean, you take that 30-man blob with three boltguns, and you shoot it at a CSM squad. There's a 1 in 6 chance per round of shooting that you snipe out their icon. Or, as mentioned, a special or heavy weapon out of the squad. Even if they have LoS!, most stuff only gets it on a 4+.

These aren't great odds, yes, but the buy in price is super cheap, and when it does happen, it can sometimes be a pretty big deal.

Plus, even without precise shot, it make sergeants quite a bit better against GEq. For one measly point.

 Ailaros wrote:
Yes, I know odds are long for a single weapon, but that's why they're cheap, and you can take them in multiples.

I mean, you take that 30-man blob with three boltguns, and you shoot it at a CSM squad. There's a 1 in 6 chance per round of shooting that you snipe out their icon. Or, as mentioned, a special or heavy weapon out of the squad. Even if they have LoS!, most stuff only gets it on a 4+.

These aren't great odds, yes, but the buy in price is super cheap, and when it does happen, it can sometimes be a pretty big deal.

Plus, even without precise shot, it make sergeants quite a bit better against GEq. For one measly point.

You may have a point with blobs. I run mech vets, so the one point for a bolter really doesn't make any sense.

I see your point Ailaros, and I would totally agree that it is an improvement, but I would suggest it would more be as a way to fill points when you're almost finished with the list building, rather than as a core choice. To me, the chance of actually doing something useful seems too low to make it a first pick for my list.

Just as an example, here's the maths against a MEQ squad, trying to kill their special weapon etc:

Precision Shot: 1/6
Wound: 1/2
Fail Armour: 1/3
Total: 1/36

Supposing you shoot like this four times a game on average, you have a total 4/36 wounds. Taking the cost of the sniped model as 25pts for the example, 4/36 x 25 = 2.7pts

Compared to a laspistol statistic of:
Precision Shot: 1/6
Wound: 1/3
Fail Armour: 1/3
Total: 1/54

4/54 x 25 = 1.85pts

So the one point upgrade gives you a 0.85 point damage increase. Of course these figures are approximate as boltguns can rapid fire and some sniped targets could be worth a lot more, but its a starting point. I think, on average, you are going to about make your points back for the upgrade, but in an individual game, you could just as easily do nothing as kill a key model in the enemy unit.

 Stus67 wrote:
So is there any point to taking Power Axes? It's 2/3 attacks at AP2 for 15 points, but whoever has it is still going last, which usually means they're dead before they can swing. Still better than a 25 point Power Fist, but I think I might just go back Chainswords because 15 points is too much for a Power Sword.

Anybody?

 ultimentra wrote:
Okay guys, so when taking an Enginseer, what is the best way to take him to the battlefield?

Theres a few options here-

1) In a Chimera attachd to vet squad or IS
This is great for giving PoTMS for a nearby Leman Russ. But not much else. He only repairs on a 5+, meaning that taking the repair option over PoTMS is really only viable when you don't have a target for the ability.

2) On foot with 3 Servitors in tow.
This makes him vulnerable, but it gives you options. If a Leman Russ gets a weapon knocked off, or a nearby tank has 1 hull point left, you may want to go for the repair which is now a 2+. But, he is slower this way so any fast tanks you might want to keep up with may be out of range of PoTMS.

I am kind of leaning towards the first option at the moment, because if you get a crew shaken or stunned result, which is 50/50 without AP modifiers, PoTMS can help with that, allowing the tank to fire its main gun at least with full BS. It can also boost the CC ability of that vet squad in a pinch.

What do you guys think?

EDIT-
3rd option) With a couple servitors in the back lines giving PoTMS to a Manticore or two for shooting two missiles and repairing any damage.. Or did this tactic get dismissed as illegal?

Last game I set up a firebase with my Tank Commander squadron and some infantry platoons in a large ruin. My Enginseer setup was thusly:

One enginseer with 5x servitors, 2 with Plasma Cannons. Two more enginseers attached to that squad as ICs. (Probably unnecessary, but it was hilarious).

One Atlas recovery vehicle.

That's six re-rollable repair rolls on a 2+, three POTMS handouts, and two plasma-cannon servitors who did spectacularly receiving the Fire on My Target order.

 Stus67 wrote:

 Stus67 wrote:
So is there any point to taking Power Axes? It's 2/3 attacks at AP2 for 15 points, but whoever has it is still going last, which usually means they're dead before they can swing. Still better than a 25 point Power Fist, but I think I might just go back Chainswords because 15 points is too much for a Power Sword.

Anybody?

Generally speaking I have to say "not really." I mean, you might get some utility out of the axe in a blob, but then you're paying points just in case the blob is on combat, whuch may never actually happen.

Foot guard got a little better, but power blobs actually got worse. They gained a source of fearless, but also gained more expensive power weapons, while gaining nothing to fix the structural problems that power blobs have had since 6th edition.

Current thinking is focusing more on getting lots of cheap non-power attacks in than trying to get expensive upgrades on non-hidden models to stick around for a battle of attrition.

 Ailaros wrote:
I don't know if techpriests are worth it JUST for PotMS. On the one hand, it fails over 1/4 of the time, and on the other hand, well, I don't know if it's worth 40 points just to have the chance to give a russ split-fire. I feel like you've got to have a reasonable chance to run out and repair something to make it all that worthwhile.

Why would it fail? There's 0 checks involved. In fact, you could use it as a failsafe if one of your tank commanders fails to issue his fire-splitting order. Actually, now that I read it again, I think the order must be given first and that shooting happens right away, which means that it's only useable as a failsafe here not to give Pask and friends 3 different targets. Honestly Pask would benefit most from it in a punisher, but you can't take him without paying a second tank tax that then can't be fully split from him while still splitting his guns... sigh. I think a lot of my theoretically awesome setups of the last few days fall apart here unless someone can think of a good way to make the engineseer do his thing at the beginning of the phase. (Order to his unit that causes it to shoot immediately? Would that work?)

70 points for a fix a hull point on a 2+ doesn't seem that bad. He's going to be fragile, of course, but he's also going to be very cheap, and if you can give your opponent more important things to shoot at, then he'll survive longer. Plus, a russ is rather big, which means a techpriest and at least a couple of servitors could hide completely out of LOS behind one.

You could also if you wanted to take an inquisitorial henchmen band with servitors in it and attach it to the tech priest, but I think they would technically mindlock if you didn't also throw in the inquisitor. Probably not worth it, but that unit could contain some 3++ crusaders then.

Oh, nevermind. I thought it was one of those "pass a leadership test" things.

And you can take up to 4 squads of russes, if having separate targets were a deal, then just split them up into separate units. Plus, the tank commander already has a split-fire order that they have access to. And generally you're going to want to be shooting a couple of russes at a single target anyways. 40 points just to make a lascannon point somewhere else? That's the cost of 4 lascannons somewhere else that can also point at different targets.

Like, it's not a bad upgrade, but I don't see how it's worth 40 points on its own.

Yeah, I always envisioned a single one for Pask in a Punisher. You may have seen the kind of damage you can do to light vehicles. Being able to split it from a couple melta sponsons and the lascannon would net you two dead vehicles.

edit: The problem is if you could also split the rest of the unit off, it would kill 50% more vehicles per turn.

But pask's punisher cannon has rending. Anything you're going to want to point the multimeltas and lascannon at you're also going to want to point pask's punisher cannon against.

And, as mentioned, you can always split things up. Take a MM/LC vanquisher and a bolter boat punisher and put them in different squads. Now they can always fire on different targets, rather than having to hope that a techpriest survives.

Mavnas wrote:
Yeah, I always envisioned a single one for Pask in a Punisher. You may have seen the kind of damage you can do to light vehicles. Being able to split it from a couple melta sponsons and the lascannon would net you two dead vehicles.

edit: The problem is if you could also split the rest of the unit off, it would kill 50% more vehicles per turn.

you can with the squadron's split fire order from Pask.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ailaros wrote:
But pask's punisher cannon has rending. Anything you're going to want to point the multimeltas and lascannon at you're also going to want to point pask's punisher cannon against.

And, as mentioned, you can always split things up. Take a MM/LC vanquisher and a bolter boat punisher and put them in different squads. Now they can always fire on different targets, rather than having to hope that a techpriest survives.

Right, but a vanquisher plus a paskisher can kill 3 vehicles per turn instead of 2.

 Ailaros wrote:
But pask's punisher cannon has rending. Anything you're going to want to point the multimeltas and lascannon at you're also going to want to point pask's punisher cannon against.

And, as mentioned, you can always split things up. Take a MM/LC vanquisher and a bolter boat punisher and put them in different squads. Now they can always fire on different targets, rather than having to hope that a techpriest survives.

That's true if you fire the cannon at heavy infantry. If you fire the punisher's canon at AV10-11, you want all the other guns on something else because that thing will be dead before they fire, and with Pask rerolling armor pen, there's a decent chance a couple melta shots and lascannon will erase something else even if not in melta range.

Still I suppose with the split, you get the choice of fire all of Pask's guns at target A, fire squad's guns at target B or fire all the guns but the gatling cannon at target A then fire the gatling cannon at either A or B. (I wonder if you have to choose the target before or after the other guns are shot... I'm thinking before?) The good news is this guarantees your ability to hit two targets even if he fails his check for the order (because in that case he doesn't immediately shoot and the engineseer can do his thing.)

So, I'd say it's worth it on just Pask because his gatling cannon ability is just that awesome, not so much on other things.

The other thing someone pointed out was the 3 Engineseers with 3 servo-arm servitors. I think that highly situational, but in a list that's very tank heavy, being able to regain up to 3 HP per turn on 2+ would be worth 150 points. Actually... if you have one the guard super heavies or some knights.

And keep in mind the Engineseer can make an attack at S6 AP2 or two at S4 AP2 if you hide him in the bubblewrap blob around your tank.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Mavnas wrote:
Yeah, I always envisioned a single one for Pask in a Punisher. You may have seen the kind of damage you can do to light vehicles. Being able to split it from a couple melta sponsons and the lascannon would net you two dead vehicles.

edit: The problem is if you could also split the rest of the unit off, it would kill 50% more vehicles per turn.

you can with the squadron's split fire order from Pask.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ailaros wrote:
But pask's punisher cannon has rending. Anything you're going to want to point the multimeltas and lascannon at you're also going to want to point pask's punisher cannon against.

And, as mentioned, you can always split things up. Take a MM/LC vanquisher and a bolter boat punisher and put them in different squads. Now they can always fire on different targets, rather than having to hope that a techpriest survives.

Right, but a vanquisher plus a paskisher can kill 3 vehicles per turn instead of 2.

The problem is that the order must be given at the beginning of your shooting phase and results in immediate shooting attack. This means, unless the engineseer can do his thing at the beginning of the shooting phase as well, he's giving the unit PotMS too late in the phase. I could see though, if the engineseer is in a unit that's ordered to make an immediate shooting attack himself, he could use his power before Pask gives his order, but now there's a lot of things that can go horribly wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, this brings up another point.

A Pasknisher that uses PotMS to split its fire rather than the order, doesn't have to fire before most of your other things fire. If you use the order, you have to fire it before any un-ordered unit fires. This might matter... like if you have other anti-vehicle tools that will pop open a transport and you want Pask to mop up the contents. For example if you have a Vendetta with no air targets to shoot at, it will never fire before units that take orders fire.

Unit1126PLL wrote:Right, but a vanquisher plus a paskisher can kill 3 vehicles per turn instead of 2.

Sure.

I don't know if that's going to be the best decision, though. I mean, if you had a vanquisher cannon with its lascannon in range, is it going to be better to fire one gun at one target and the other at the other? It seems like the risk of overkill for firing both at the same target is going to be less bad than the risk of underkill by possibly just throwing a single hull point off of two different vehicles.

I mean, it's a better decision when it's a better decision, but it isn't always the right move, which you have to pay 40 points for whether you use it or not.

I feel like Bullgryns are kinda nice. Personally anyway. I don't know if its wishful thinking on my part but what is everyone elses opinions?

To Ailoros on splitting a Vanquishers Main Gun & Lascannon, I agree that splitting the guns might not be best. I will point out that while the Vanquisher can easily pen a vehicle, at AP 2 it only has a 33% chance to explode a vehicle. If I'm using a Vanquisher, I personally want the vehicle dead dead dead, not immoblized or having lost a weapon. I'm not sure if splitting the shots for a 33% chance on two vehicles is the best idea.

I will say that a Paskisher (I do like that, whomever came up with it) with a hull Lascannon & Multimelta's is a fun idea. it gives you a platform that won't do as good vs med/light infantry, but will do far better wounding against MEQ/TEQ and Monstrous Creatures. Hell, a Paskisher at that loadout has a good chance to kill in one round of shooting most MCs. It may only be a 24" range, but if you're shielding pask with the other 2 tanks in his squadron, you should be able to gib an MC or termy squad something aweful

 Stus67 wrote:

 Stus67 wrote:
So is there any point to taking Power Axes? It's 2/3 attacks at AP2 for 15 points, but whoever has it is still going last, which usually means they're dead before they can swing. Still better than a 25 point Power Fist, but I think I might just go back Chainswords because 15 points is too much for a Power Sword.

Anybody?

In a 50 man blob with 5 Sergeants with axes, only one is going to step up to a challenge. The rest are there to lay the smack down. They're still worth taking.

Power blobs aren't any less dead.

The reason why we're starting to talk about blobs again is because lasguns can now get precise shot and plasma guns can get tank hunters and FRF lasguns can get prescience. It's the bonus to infantry squad shooting that's made foot guard stronger.

---

Oh, another thing that I missed until just today. You can no longer take dual plasma pistols. Not anywhere.

In the armory it says "may replace laspistol with", and in those places where there isn't a laspistol, like commissars, it says in their entry things like "may replace bolt pistol with".

Plasma pistols just got prohibitively expensive, but even if they hadn't, it's strange that everyone lost the ability to go akimbo with them.

Has anyone took the armored sentinels for a drive yet? I'm thinking they'd be good plasma boats because the opponent would be focused on the wave of chimera/ troops and av14 coming there way. Allowing the sentinels to launch plasma shots at important things.

Did I misread something or did they restrict combined squads to infantry squads only?

 l0k1 wrote:
Did I misread something or did they restrict combined squads to infantry squads only?

That's how it works, just like it did before.

Why would you pay for a power weapon on a sergeant when you can take a priest for only a few points more? I'd rather keep the sergeants cheap and use them to handle unwinnable challenges. Maybe give them a boltgun and melta bombs.

I'm really hating this codex. It's making me want to play IG again.

I don't think I would be going full crazy and charging the enemy with a ton of guys on turn 1, but I would definitely be packing blobs with priests, commissars, etc. to use as a counterattack element that the objective holding platoon can use to finish off something that gets too close. I may chuck a 25 point commissar or priest in a unit of 50 conscripts and just chuck them at the enemy to eat fire too. 175pts for a unit that the opponent has to deal with if they want to get anything done is pretty cool.

Back that up with an allied Stormtrooper detachment deepstriking in to help snag objectives, and a large amount of russes backing up the infantry would be a lot of fun to try.

Plus, I'm surprised I'm not seeing more love for Enginseers. They allow Russ squadrons to be a lot more flexible with the Power of the Machine spirit ability. Having that guaranteed split fire ability as in addition to the order the tank commander has is nice, and it can be used on non HQ squadrons as well. On top of that, you're paying a mere 10pt extra for the ability to repair tanks, hide the character in a blob that's probably already guarding your tanks anyways, and give units like conscripts a good LD of 8 if you don't feel like using a Commissar/priest on them. If I get back in, I'll probably always have at least one around when I'm using more than a couple of russes.

Right now I'm waiting on somebody to make a battlescribe file for the codex so I can play with lists more easily. I already have one I made for the stormtrooper mini dex, it's just the IG book takes a lot more work and I just don't have the time right now to put one together. I hate using pen and paper since the super flexible nature of IG lists means I'm constantly switching units around and options.

Honestly, you don't even need to put them in a blob. An Enginseer and a couple of servitors can easily be hidden behind the hull of a Russ. Since the tanks can only move 6'' anyway, you can spend the entire game huddling the enginseer behind your tanks. lol

Power weapons have become better taking into consideration easy access to Zealot and prescience. I think it justifies this small price increase.

Priests and comissars are awesome. 3 pts conscripts are a steal. Now you can have 50 fearless scoring bodies for 175 pts. The only thing they're afraid of is sniping out characters but i think that if the enemy wastes his barrage on conscripts - they've allready payed for themselves. Besides, you can get Lord comissar in there for 2 extra wounds and 2+ look outs.

Yesterday i've seen a game with 2*30 platoons with 2 power axes and a couple meltabombz, 2*50 conscripts, CCS with master of ordnance in chimera, 3 priests, 1 comissar - 1000 pts - playing vs tau - 12 fw with fireblade, 2*6 fw, riptide, sniper drones, 3*stealth team with burst cannons, 3*crysis with plazmas and flamers and piranha.

Know that joke about ig?

- Commander, intelligence reports that enemy can't swim.
- Good. Drown them in bodies!

That's exactly what happened. Fearless blobs are truly awesome. Ig just marched across the field shooting down everything and stabbing lucky survivors with bayonetes. Yep, the lists were not 'optimised' to the max, but it was so on both sides. Tau didn't have broadsides while ig didn't have their mighty russes and artillery. Ig player didn't spread his enormous platoons. At all. The turn piranha arrived, it killed like 20 guards and proceeded doing around so every next. Riptide killed minimum 10 every turn. But it still wasn't enough.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Honestly, you don't even need to put them in a blob. An Enginseer and a couple of servitors can easily be hidden behind the hull of a Russ. Since the tanks can only move 6'' anyway, you can spend the entire game huddling the enginseer behind your tanks. lol

In the blob they also add 2 S5 AP2 or 1 S6 AP1 attack and buff its leadership.

Has anyone thought about allying with Raven Guard and outflanking blobs? Should be able to take a Librarian and Techpriest and attach them each to a blob. It would make getting to the enemy's deployment zone, AKA, your second deployment zone a lot easier. With a 50 man blob, you can string a thin line of guys back towards your zone to put the unit in psyker buff/order. At 2" spacing, that's 4 guys per foot of distance away from command squads (though they'd have to be on the board edge you just outflanked from).

With the profile for the Emperors Benediction including Precision Shot that can only be taken by a unit capable of obtaining Precision Shots would you say this pistol always hits who you like in a squad?

Reading the wording for Precision Shots on pg 63 would lead me to believe that is the case also.

Has anyone tried Kurovs Aquilla? I tried it in a game and it payed its points back many times.

Nestled a CCS in between HWT, a russ, veterans and several other squads so they all got the PE buff. It cuts down the need for prescience,