Instead, Kinberg—who’s currently writing one of the as-yet-unnamed standalone Star Wars films that may or may not be about Boba Fett—says the new movies will be about “honoring the original movies, and yet wanting to take a step forward, too, and tell a new story.” And that new story will most likely be one that fans haven’t had years to come to terms with and take fierce ownership of, meaning they’ll just have to adopt an open-minded, optimistic approach to allowing others to freely create them. In other words, everything should work out just fine and everyone will be happy.
On an equally positive note, deviating from the Expanded Universe allows Abrams and others plenty of latitude to start fresh with Lobot. What if the new movies are just everyone talking about how cool Lobot is? #BringBackLobot
Damn. Part of me really really wanted the EU to get booted to the curb and rebuilt from the ground up. Oh well. Star Wars is Star Wars. EDIT: Or way to fail at reading XD Guess I can live with them just ignoring the EU. I've been doing that for years.
I think this is the best angle that they could use to approach this problem. The problem with Star Wars (and a lot of fandoms, really) is, ironically, its fanbase. You have a huge fanbase with conflicting information and very high passion, that is a powder keg and WILL go off no matter what you do with it.
The best way to deal with that kind of problem is to simply start fresh and clean.
That said, I hope that they are not about Boba Fett. Most overrated and incompetent character ever, rivaled only by his idiot father.
It would actually be a decent time to put the origin of the Fett Solo rivalry on film, have Han be a supporting character for whoever the antagonist is who screws Fett over by dumb luck and starts a decades long feud
Sure must be awesome to be one of the writers that spent years working on SW now that all that work will be thrown out in favour of the JJ Abhrams mystery box.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Sure must be awesome to be one of the writers that spend years working on SW now that all that work will be thrown out in favour of the JJ Abhrams mystery box.
At this point, they all deserve it. Bunch of children at a damn kindergarden
H.B.M.C. wrote: Sure must be awesome to be one of the writers that spend years working on SW now that all that work will be thrown out in favour of the JJ Abhrams mystery box.
Is this the same guy who took a dump on Wrath of Khan with his incoherent version?
EDIT: If its not a reboot - thats fine. If he's gong back to old characters thats not good.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Sure must be awesome to be one of the writers that spend years working on SW now that all that work will be thrown out in favour of the JJ Abhrams mystery box.
Is this the same guy who took a dump on Wrath of Khan with his incoherent version?
Yes, it is, which is why I'm apprehensive at best. Given what he did to Wrath of Khan in Into Darkness, I half expect there to be a flashback in which Luke announces he is Vader's father thanks to a time travel accident, and Han to watch as Leia is frozen in carbonite. Episodes 1-3 incapacitated Star Wars, Clone Wars kept it on Life Support, and I fully expect Abrams to take an axe to it.
I'm tentatively hopeful, but I really like some of the good Expanded Universe stuff too (Like the X-Wing novels and Zahn's Thrawn books). I'm willing to be open-minded though, as long as they put out something better than the prequels that feels like Star Wars.
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Jihadin wrote: I want to see a certain blue skin Admiral hit the film....three movies right there...
That would be pretty awesome.
And actually, some of the EU stuff is considered canon. The problem is, is that Lucasfilm has this weird tiered canon system, in which everything that isn't the films falls into a lower tier.
Hordini wrote: I'm tentatively hopeful, but I really like some of the good Expanded Universe stuff too (Like the X-Wing novels and Zahn's Thrawn books). I'm willing to be open-minded though, as long as they put out something better than the prequels that feels like Star Wars.
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Jihadin wrote: I want to see a certain blue skin Admiral hit the film....three movies right there...
That would be pretty awesome.
And actually, some of the EU stuff is considered canon. The problem is, is that Lucasfilm has this weird tiered canon system, in which everything that isn't the films falls into a lower tier.
If we have that character in the new movies. It would quite awesome. He is probably the best villian to date.
The bad: No Thrawn. The good: No sadomasochistic Yuuzhan Vong space crabs. Actually not having yorik crystals and dovin basals and faux-adult emo drama is SO good in my eyes I'm willing to forgive them for the former.
But I'm intrigued by this standalone movie about Boba Fett. I still don't get all this love for him. Going by the original trilogy, he's just a nameless third-rate snitch who dies an undignified death at the Sarlacc pit along with a dozen equally worthless goons.
It was the EU (and the prequels, to a lesser extent) what turned him into the badass space ninja with a tortured past most fans seem to idolize. If Abrams is going to ignore the massive soap-operatic ball the EU has weaved around this particular characters, he's in for some major fan backlash.
Hordini wrote: And actually, some of the EU stuff is considered canon.
Which is why I didn't say the entirety of it was non-canonical. Thrawn is awesome, and I always like Mara Jade as well, but if losing them also means losing the Yuuzhan Vong then out with the trash they go.
Hordini wrote: The problem is, is that Lucasfilm has this weird tiered canon system, in which everything that isn't the films falls into a lower tier.
It was always a terrible system. There are parts of the EU that are far better than the prequels, not that that is a hard bridge to cross, but it is also wildly spun out of control so it probably isn't a bad idea to start fresh.
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Agent_Tremolo wrote: But I'm intrigued by this standalone movie about Boba Fett. I still don't get all this love for him. Going by the original trilogy, he's just a nameless third-rate snitch who dies an undignified death at the Sarlacc pit along with a dozen equally worthless goons.
I think it was just that he had cool armor, shot at Luke, caught Han (sort of), and was just mysterious enough to pique interest.
On one of my many deployment.....seating there reading the Alpha Prime(?) loaded M4 by me.....guy next to me ask me if I've gotten to the part where Chewie dies....
But I'm intrigued by this standalone movie about Boba Fett. I still don't get all this love for him. Going by the original trilogy, he's just a nameless third-rate snitch who dies an undignified death at the Sarlacc pit along with a dozen equally worthless goons.
I think it's probably self-perpetuating. I think he probably has one of the best popularity-to-actual-lines ratio of any film character, so there's already a myth around him when new people discover Star Wars. Regardless of how it started, it's continued by the way that, when a dad shows his kid Empire Strikes Back and goes 'that guy there, he's cool', the myth goes on.
It could also be the fact that this is a guy who can stand shoulder-to-shoulder with Vader and Jabba the Hutt without seeming out of place, so he's pretty badass. He's the guy that manages to take in Han Solo, or at least instigate it, so he's pretty badass. And he has a jetpack and wrist-blaster, so he's pretty badass.
I think the fan backlash is going to be MUCH bigger with them completely trampling over the EU and throwing it out the window, then it would be if they just took liberties with what was already established. I don't see this ending well, at all. I seem to be one of the few that actually enjoyed the EU as a whole, though starting with that Yuuzhan Vong nonsense it got pretty stale IMO.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Sure must be awesome to be one of the writers that spend years working on SW now that all that work will be thrown out in favour of the JJ Abhrams mystery box.
Is this the same guy who took a dump on Wrath of Khan with his incoherent version?
Yes, it is, which is why I'm apprehensive at best. Given what he did to Wrath of Khan in Into Darkness, I half expect there to be a flashback in which Luke announces he is Vader's father thanks to a time travel accident, and Han to watch as Leia is frozen in carbonite. Episodes 1-3 incapacitated Star Wars, Clone Wars kept it on Life Support, and I fully expect Abrams to take an axe to it.
The one difference is that Abrams was not, and still isn't, a fan of the Star Trek universe. He is however a huge fanboy for Star Wars. Or at least that's what I've heard.
chaos0xomega wrote: I think the fan backlash is going to be MUCH bigger with them completely trampling over the EU and throwing it out the window, then it would be if they just took liberties with what was already established. I don't see this ending well, at all. I seem to be one of the few that actually enjoyed the EU as a whole, though starting with that Yuuzhan Vong nonsense it got pretty stale IMO.
But I'm intrigued by this standalone movie about Boba Fett. I still don't get all this love for him. Going by the original trilogy, he's just a nameless third-rate snitch who dies an undignified death at the Sarlacc pit along with a dozen equally worthless goons.
I think it's probably self-perpetuating. I think he probably has one of the best popularity-to-actual-lines ratio of any film character, so there's already a myth around him when new people discover Star Wars. Regardless of how it started, it's continued by the way that, when a dad shows his kid Empire Strikes Back and goes 'that guy there, he's cool', the myth goes on.
It could also be the fact that this is a guy who can stand shoulder-to-shoulder with Vader and Jabba the Hutt without seeming out of place, so he's pretty badass. He's the guy that manages to take in Han Solo, or at least instigate it, so he's pretty badass. And he has a jetpack and wrist-blaster, so he's pretty badass.
I agree with you on his popularity-to-lines ratio, but I think, in addition to that, the lines that he does have are critical, and paint a pretty good picture, and goes hand-in-hand with what you said about him being able to stand with Vader and Jabba without seeming out of place.
A couple examples: When Vader has assembled the bounty hunters, he specifically singles out Fett when Vader demands there be "No disintegrations." Although Fett agrees to Vader's terms, the interaction illustrates that Fett has already established a ruthless reputation, and that reputation is well-known enough that Vader himself is familiar with it.
The other example is when Vader orders Han be encased in carbonite. Fett doesn't hesitate to question Vader, and reminds Vader that Han is worth a lot to Fett. Outside of Grand Moff Tarkin and the officer Vader chokes in A New hope, you don't even see high-ranking Imperial officers confronting Vader, especially not in the way Fett does.
Both of these brief interactions add a lot of weight to Fett's reputation as a badass with relatively minimal lines and screen time. It's actually a pretty effective way to quickly develop a minor supporting character.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Sure must be awesome to be one of the writers that spend years working on SW now that all that work will be thrown out in favour of the JJ Abhrams mystery box.
Is this the same guy who took a dump on Wrath of Khan with his incoherent version?
Yes, it is, which is why I'm apprehensive at best. Given what he did to Wrath of Khan in Into Darkness, I half expect there to be a flashback in which Luke announces he is Vader's father thanks to a time travel accident, and Han to watch as Leia is frozen in carbonite. Episodes 1-3 incapacitated Star Wars, Clone Wars kept it on Life Support, and I fully expect Abrams to take an axe to it.
The one difference is that Abrams was not, and still isn't, a fan of the Star Trek universe. He is however a huge fanboy for Star Wars. Or at least that's what I've heard.
~Tim?
I believe I read the same thing. I think the new trilogy is in pretty good hands, unless you're a diehard fan of that Extended Universe stuff. And even there I expect to see some nods to that material. Mara Jade is a good, popular, bankable character, for instance.
One point of order -- ST Into Darkness was a Space Seed reimagining, with nods to Wrath of Khan. It can't truly be WoK at their first meeting.
But I'm intrigued by this standalone movie about Boba Fett. I still don't get all this love for him. Going by the original trilogy, he's just a nameless third-rate snitch who dies an undignified death at the Sarlacc pit along with a dozen equally worthless goons.
I think it's probably self-perpetuating. I think he probably has one of the best popularity-to-actual-lines ratio of any film character, so there's already a myth around him when new people discover Star Wars. Regardless of how it started, it's continued by the way that, when a dad shows his kid Empire Strikes Back and goes 'that guy there, he's cool', the myth goes on.
It could also be the fact that this is a guy who can stand shoulder-to-shoulder with Vader and Jabba the Hutt without seeming out of place, so he's pretty badass. He's the guy that manages to take in Han Solo, or at least instigate it, so he's pretty badass. And he has a jetpack and wrist-blaster, so he's pretty badass.
I agree with you on his popularity-to-lines ratio, but I think, in addition to that, the lines that he does have are critical, and paint a pretty good picture, and goes hand-in-hand with what you said about him being able to stand with Vader and Jabba without seeming out of place.
A couple examples: When Vader has assembled the bounty hunters, he specifically singles out Fett when Vader demands there be "No disintegrations." Although Fett agrees to Vader's terms, the interaction illustrates that Fett has already established a ruthless reputation, and that reputation is well-known enough that Vader himself is familiar with it.
The other example is when Vader orders Han be encased in carbonite. Fett doesn't hesitate to question Vader, and reminds Vader that Han is worth a lot to Fett. Outside of Grand Moff Tarkin and the officer Vader chokes in A New hope, you don't even see high-ranking Imperial officers confronting Vader, especially not in the way Fett does.
Both of these brief interactions add a lot of weight to Fett's reputation as a badass with relatively minimal lines and screen time. It's actually a pretty effective way to quickly develop a minor supporting character.
Fett also has the "I am so not impressed" stance when Vader talks to the bounty hunters.
I have heard rumours that all the old cast are being rounded up for this.... I just cannot see leias or lukes characters doing it... or even harrison ford.
I assume its just people yanking my chain, any truth to that rumour?
Boba is an awesome character, almost by accident I think.
Id say the really cool costume, and the fact that people have to make up their own "filler" with him a bit, coupled with the numerous "bad @$$" points he gets for looks/attitude/ect make him far more interesting then was intended.
If I had to single out one thing as to why he stands out, Id say its the costume.
better then the sotrm troopers, vaders, really, anyones costume in the whole film.
easysauce wrote: I have heard rumours that all the old cast are being rounded up for this.... I just cannot see leias or lukes characters doing it... or even harrison ford.
I assume its just people yanking my chain, any truth to that rumour?
I've seen that too, and at the very least there have been reports of Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher talking to Abrams. I hope they do stay well away, but I expect them to feature.
Also, they've confirmed that R2D2 will be featuring in the new trilogy.
But I'm intrigued by this standalone movie about Boba Fett. I still don't get all this love for him. Going by the original trilogy, he's just a nameless third-rate snitch who dies an undignified death at the Sarlacc pit along with a dozen equally worthless goons.
I think it's probably self-perpetuating. I think he probably has one of the best popularity-to-actual-lines ratio of any film character, so there's already a myth around him when new people discover Star Wars. Regardless of how it started, it's continued by the way that, when a dad shows his kid Empire Strikes Back and goes 'that guy there, he's cool', the myth goes on.
It could also be the fact that this is a guy who can stand shoulder-to-shoulder with Vader and Jabba the Hutt without seeming out of place, so he's pretty badass. He's the guy that manages to take in Han Solo, or at least instigate it, so he's pretty badass. And he has a jetpack and wrist-blaster, so he's pretty badass.
I agree with you on his popularity-to-lines ratio, but I think, in addition to that, the lines that he does have are critical, and paint a pretty good picture, and goes hand-in-hand with what you said about him being able to stand with Vader and Jabba without seeming out of place.
A couple examples: When Vader has assembled the bounty hunters, he specifically singles out Fett when Vader demands there be "No disintegrations." Although Fett agrees to Vader's terms, the interaction illustrates that Fett has already established a ruthless reputation, and that reputation is well-known enough that Vader himself is familiar with it.
The other example is when Vader orders Han be encased in carbonite. Fett doesn't hesitate to question Vader, and reminds Vader that Han is worth a lot to Fett. Outside of Grand Moff Tarkin and the officer Vader chokes in A New hope, you don't even see high-ranking Imperial officers confronting Vader, especially not in the way Fett does.
Both of these brief interactions add a lot of weight to Fett's reputation as a badass with relatively minimal lines and screen time. It's actually a pretty effective way to quickly develop a minor supporting character.
To me the Disintegration point implies he's been careless and disintegrated targets before which isn't really a great thing when you're a bounty hunter
He then procedes to be completely useless in the one fight he's in and dies pretty poorly, never understood that hype around him.
Actually its perfectly fine when you're a bounty hunter, in Star Wars (unlike in real life) being a bounty hunter means bringing in a target dead or alive, depending on the bounty contract.
Keep:
- Rough and ugly ships with lots of scorch marks.
- Insane speed ships with no shielding.
- More combat oriented Jedi.
- Huge freaking space battles.
- A "good guy" that shoots first.
- Can anyone slip in "HK-47" the assassin droid, PLEASE!
I don't really like any of the Star Wars films so I just want to see a good film. Ideally completely removed from the films that already exist since to me they are poor in pretty much every way a film can be.
I don't care if they use or don't use the extended universe and I don't expect the vast majority of people who would go and see the film really care if Bobba Han Vader Hutt is in the film because it was in the EU somewhere either.
Paradigm wrote: There's also something we're forgetting on the Boba Fett matter:How could you not love this ship?
For me this is it, not just the ship it's his whole character. He is a bounty hunter not bound to either side he free roams the galaxy making his own adventures. I know it's not a direct parallel but it's similar to the free roaming of the rogue trader that originally attracted me to 40k, the space adventurer off exploring, Fett allows the story to diverge from the big picture of the politics of the galaxy into something far more interesting. we have lost the rogue trader element in 40k so I would love to see this avenue opened up through the star wars universe.
Jihadin wrote: On one of my many deployment.....seating there reading the Alpha Prime(?) loaded M4 by me.....guy next to me ask me if I've gotten to the part where Chewie dies....
"The question is, if I have gotten to the part where you die." Says Jihadin in my mind as he glances idly down at the weapon beside him.
Also in my mind you are seated on a litter of cushions and a woman clad in pearls (and only pearls) is feeding you grapes with her toes because fetish.
OT, I guess EU = expanded universe? In which case I don't mind them tossing it out and starting over since that stuff is pretty convoluted from what I understand.
djphranq wrote: You know what would be cool? If Karen Traviss got to write for the new Star Wars movies.
I'm hoping you rolled your eyes when you wrote that.
Harrison Ford, Carrie Fisher, and Mark Hamill being in it have passed being a rumor awhile ago; they are reprising their roles for the film(s).
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Ma55ter_fett wrote: OT, I guess EU = expanded universe? In which case I don't mind them tossing it out and starting over since that stuff is pretty convoluted from what I understand.
Jihadin wrote: If I see Rise of the Jawa's....let the burning commmence
Now see, I would love to see that movie!
The Jawas raid Obi-Wan's hut and recover a cache of Jedi training tools. In time, they trade most to another Sandcrawler, which uses the force for evil.Luke detects the disturbance and returns to lead the light Jawa Jedis in an epic race against time to destroy the dark Jedi Jawas. They almost succeed. but Darth Dathcha escapes on his mind controlled Krayt Dragon to his secret base in the maw of the Sarlacc. There, he begins training his apprentice- Boba Fett.
I'm hoping you rolled your eyes when you wrote that.
I did roll my eyes... in utter ecstasy... I <3 KT 4 Life!
I don't have anything against here personally, but she is an incredibly divisive figure, what with referring to people that questioned some of the lore she made up in her books as Star Wars Taliban, err..Talifan, and Nazis.
Talizvar wrote: Keep:
- Rough and ugly ships with lots of scorch marks.
- Insane speed ships with no shielding.
- More combat oriented Jedi.
- Huge freaking space battles.
- A "good guy" that shoots first.
- Can anyone slip in "HK-47" the assassin droid, PLEASE!
Didn't the prequels give us a more combat oriented Jedi already, either way I'm not sure that really makes them anymore interesting as what makes good action on screen isn't the amount of it but how it's used.
I actually liked the YV series, I know I'm a minority. And the whole Han/Lando/Fett hate-triangle was all explained in the Han Solo Trilogy, which is now out. Despite Han and Lando publicly humiliating Fett and tossing his armor into a furnace and making him walk through town in just his underwear. I'd be pissed too, if I was as proud as Fett. And of course, it explains why Lando was upset with Han, and why Han doesn't really give two craps about the rebels until Leia and Luke befriend him. Also explains why Chewie owes Han a life debt. In fact...that trilogy is extremely important. And now gone. Feth!!
Can't say I'm not happy about it.
For all the gems that the EU did have, there was a lot of dross to sort through to find them.
Without Zahn, the EU wouldn't have the presence it does today - they took a chance on something which re-ignited the flagging fan interest in the SW universe. At the time, SW WAS a dying thing.
I'm hoping you rolled your eyes when you wrote that.
I did roll my eyes... in utter ecstasy... I <3 KT 4 Life!
I don't have anything against here personally, but she is an incredibly divisive figure, what with referring to people that questioned some of the lore she made up in her books as Star Wars Taliban, err..Talifan, and Nazis.
My expectations are really low after lucas's last 3 abominations of films and the butchering of the original films. It cannot be worse than that but you never know.
I find the Yhuuzan Vong hate interesting. That was actually where I started reading EU, and it's what got me hooked into it. It caused me to go back and read previous books because I wanted to know more about the characters.
And I'm not mad at Salvatore about killing Chewie. It wasn't his choice, he was told he had to do it.
I don't understand the facsination with Boba Fett either. Even when I was a little kid I didn't know why he was so cool. It was as if Lucas didn't like the attention he got in the Empire Strikes back and killed him in Jedi just to spite everyone.
Then he makes him a big deal in the remakes, changes his voice for the Blu-Rays and includes him in the prequels along with his dad.
djphranq wrote: You know what would be cool? If Karen Traviss got to write for the new Star Wars movies.
Don't you dare suggest such a Travissty. It's bad enough she ruined Halo damn it.
Besides we all know how the story would go. Awesome warrior guy gos and fights evil scientist to show how hypocritical scientist is and warrior guy is way better; like every single book she's ever written.
I don't understand the facsination with Boba Fett
He had the coolest action figure.
And I'm not mad at Salvatore about killing Chewie. It wasn't his choice, he was told he had to do it.
See Chewie is a good example of properly killing a character. Chewie had a great death. One that felt meaningful, in character, and overall was an improvement to the story. I liked Chewie's demise. It was one of the high points of the EU for me. The same for the death of Anakin Solo. Killing characters is hard to do, but the EU, when it leaves them dead, has often done a decent job with most of its major characters (Mara Jade was not one of them ).
Kronk, the dude in that meme picture looks uncannily like a guy I went to high school with. I don't think it actually is, but the resemblance is pretty striking.
I know it'll never happen because LIGHTSABER BATTLES ... but I'd like Jedi to go back to being mysterious, wise dudes who go around solving problems instead of LIGHTSABER BATTLING everything.
Plus retcon some of the 'we take kids from their parents when they are like three and train them to never ever feel emotion or have human connections because we are a creepy ass cult' vibe that the prequels gave them.
.... actually now that I think about it, I just want movies that don't completely revolve around a jedi. Make the jedi an ancillary character or something.
LordofHats wrote: It would actually be a decent time to put the origin of the Fett Solo rivalry on film, have Han be a supporting character for whoever the antagonist is who screws Fett over by dumb luck and starts a decades long feud
No, the EU is OUT. GONE. Shot twice in the head and dumped in a river.
They are not avoiding the EU by placing the film before Jedi. They are avoiding the EU by wiping it from (G level?) canon. The toilet's been flushed. Enjoy the clear air.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: But then how will we know whether the Executor is 5 miles long or 11 miles long?
Its as long as the Lusankya ... duh!
I think the EU does have its gems ... so killing it all does make me a bit sad. The X-Wing series, Republic Commandos, etc.
As for the movie, theres still plenty of possible settings and main characters to chose from. Ill be happy as long as we dont get any more of that slapstick Droid/Gungan crap and the world returns to its grimy original state where strarships dont get polished all day long ...
Bromsy wrote: I know it'll never happen because LIGHTSABER BATTLES ... but I'd like Jedi to go back to being mysterious, wise dudes who go around solving problems instead of LIGHTSABER BATTLING everything.
Plus retcon some of the 'we take kids from their parents when they are like three and train them to never ever feel emotion or have human connections because we are a creepy ass cult' vibe that the prequels gave them.
.... actually now that I think about it, I just want movies that don't completely revolve around a jedi. Make the jedi an ancillary character or something.
Agreed. SW movies were best when "jedi" were just one story among many. Less is more.
Star Wars - Jedi fight without a lot opf flash and of course "trust your feelings Luke"
TESB - some training and epic cool fight at the end but only one story of effectively three.
ROTJ - editing out the furbies and most of the movie is a 1930s serial action.
Frankly, I find the existence of the truly deplorable films as more hopeful for the franchise than the wholesale removal of the EU. If a franchise can retain fans after producing material that bad, it will be able to survive JJ Abrams' tender touch.
djones520 wrote: I find the Yhuuzan Vong hate interesting. That was actually where I started reading EU, and it's what got me hooked into it. It caused me to go back and read previous books because I wanted to know more about the characters.
And I'm not mad at Salvatore about killing Chewie. It wasn't his choice, he was told he had to do it.
For me, the YV bit (and basically everything after) was the 'jump the shark' moment for the EU. I could tolerate even some of the most extremely silly stuff they put out up to that point (like the never-ending parade of evil clones and the sudden existential one-time threat that was the Ssi-Ruuvi Imperium that everyone completely forgot about for the next 40 years until they popped up again for like 5 minutes during the YV invasion and then suddenly went back to being irrelevant and entirely forgotten again), because hey its a big galaxy and next to anything is possible I suppose, but the extragalactic invaders trope (besides being overdone) just doesn't fit. The concept of the YV and all that is too unrealistic and alien in a galaxy thats full of really weird unrealistic aliens, particularly a galaxy in which about 1/3rd of space is basically completely unexplored and therefore full of room for something more interesting and out there without being TOO out there.
Beyond that, in my (unprofessional opinion), Star Wars was up until that point this sort of epic saga of good ultimately prevailing over evil (keeping with GL's original vision), and a new generation atoning for the sins of their fathers and making the world (galaxy) a better place, etc. In my mind, Star Wars, had it continued on that path, would have become the foundation for a legitimate religious belief system within a few centuries (similar to what Scientology attempted to do but far less cult-like, and absolutely unintentionally (unlike Scientology)) and Star Wars would have become this true mythos along the lines of the Norse Sagas, the Kalevala, and ancient Greek mythology, to the point that if at some point in the future all mankind ceased to exist, then whatever intelligent lifeform that succeeded us might one day discover evidence of Star Wars and assume it was our own religious belief system. With the implementation of the YV (and everything thereafter) we once again plunge the Star Wars galaxy into a cycle of destruction and bloodshed, the galaxy goes from being GL's place of hope for a brighter future to this dark, decrepit, unforgiving place. The same mistakes that were made to lead the galaxy to the point it was at when A New Hope began are repeated again, the sins of the father that were paid for with the blood and sweat of their children are the same sins committed by their grandchildren. The New Hope that we promised with the Return of the Jedi is dashed away, the hope for a peaceful and happy future for the heroes who spent their entire lives fighting to make the world a better place is crushed, its undone.
Think about it, Luke, Leia, Han, Chewie, Lando, etc. spend their entire youth, their entire adult lives basically fighting to bring peace, happiness, and freedom to the peoples of the galaxy. They spend 30 friggin years trying to do it, they grow to be old in the process, and though before the YV invasion it isn't perfect, its a better place than it was when Palpatine was running the show, that Hope is still there and within reach. By this point their old, they have been fighting for their WHOLE lives, and these are our heroes, we want them to be able to retire from the business, y'know? We want there to be some 'rest for the wicked', we went them to settle down, find happiness, love, live out the rest of their days in peace, and pass on into the next life knowing that they left the world better than it was when they entered it. What happens? Their best friend Chewie gets smashed by a friggin planet, Luke loses (yet another, he really gets the raw end of the stick a few times in the EU in this regard) his wife and love of his life, the Solos have one son turn into an absolute monster not unlike his grandfather and another son basically sacrifices himself to save everyone else, etc. This isn't the future they were promised, it wasn't what we want for them, it isn't what we hoped for, its not what anyone hoped for, and again just plunges what is supposed to be a hopeful, promising place, a hopeful promising future, right back into this cycle of death, darkness, and drudgery.
I will give the YV bit some credit though, it was really cool how they tied them into some previous loose ends (presuming they didnt have this planned out years in advance), even incorporating something as silly as The Great Heep into their history.
chromedog wrote: There is no more layered canon hierarchy.
No more G: canon, S canon, P, Q or V canon.
There will JUST be "canon".
Some of the old stuff might reappear with a new look - and THEN be canon (but only THAT iteration).
Leland Chee has been doing this shizz for over a decade, looking after canon. They're just making his job easier.
Debatable. I'd say they made his job irrelevant. What was the point of him being the keeper of the Holocron for all those years to meticulously record every name, character, event, object, location, etc. and to try to ensure internal consistency as best as possible and retcon any inconsistencies for all those years (and in the process forming the most consistent and complete mythos the world has possibly ever known) if they were just going to throw it out the window? They basically just killed part of what makes Star Wars Star Wars.
Also, I would say it was unnecessary. The important bits of the core characters story that Lucas wanted us to know has already been told via the films, and what wasn't in the films was told in the EU (much of it adapted from GL's own notes). Their story is over, but its a big galaxy, and while a lot of events are 'locked' in place by honoring the EU, there is still PLENTY of room to tell parallel stories of new characters working within the established framework. For all we know about Boba Fetts activities for example, there is still PLENTY of room to write new material about him within the timeline established by the EU. There is plenty of room to tell the story of entirely new characters - in parallel to the established EU - with the existing characters taking on more minor supporting roles, and still feature great storylines about major life-altering events that could have a major impact on the setting.
There are PLENTY of characters shown on screen or mentioned in EU sources that have PLENTY of room for expansion without stepping over established ground and which fans would LOVE to know more about, and could easily be tied into what only the casual Star Wars fan (read: only seen the movies) knows about the setting. Dash Rendar anyone? Boba Fett obviously... how about some more about Bossk or Dengar? Bib Fortuna? How bout some more about the Max Rebo Band? Ponda Baba?
And lets not forgot all the possible EU works that could have easily been adapted to film: Shadows of the Empire as a one-off (possibly room to make it a two-parter), the Thrawn trilogy, etc.
In my opinion, they are taking a completely wrong direction with their management and handling of the EU and the canon.
Honestly the issue for the EU is probably that its got a massive amount of material spread over 30+ years and the Disney guys are probably completely unaware of 90% of it. Rather than spend all their time catching up on all that material its insurmountably easier to just dump it all and move on.
Add in that the fan base has splintered 3 times in the last decade alone and you have a fanbase that is very bitter and divided over the current EU content.
The only tragedy for me, is that Darkhorse has lost their license. Besides being very successful in the Star Wars imo overall, it also means that they'll never freaking finish Legacy
IIRC, there are 8 films. Let's not forget the FUN that was The Clone Wars, as we watched monstrous caricatures of awful prequel trilogy characters waltz around the galaxy, saving Jabba the Hutt's son!
With Lucasfilm, Disney also inherited many of Lucas's employees, including Leland Chee who is very much aware of ALL of it. If they were intelligent, they would have instead approached Chee to direct them to a good place to start with a film adaptation of something already published (like say Shadows of the Empire or the Thrawn trilogy) to buy themselves time (and some serious goodwill, JJ Abrams wouldn't mess something like that up) while he tracks down a GOOD screenwriter and briefs him on the setting and situation and advises him on whats good and what aint, and who would remain faithful to the canon and read through enough of it to comfortably write new screenplays that fit into the overall framework... instead they gave serious fans the finger and basically destroyed everything that a not insignificant amount of what the Star Wars fanbase knows and loves.
On the flip side, apparrently episode 7 will pick up around 34ABY, so its entirely possible that they're leaving most of the stuff up to around the YV issue intact... but I dont hold out much hope for it.
It also means that Marvel is writing Star Wars comics... they don't have a very good track record of maintaining continuity themselves....
-Shrike- wrote: IIRC, there are 8 films. Let's not forget the FUN that was The Clone Wars, as we watched monstrous caricatures of awful prequel trilogy characters waltz around the galaxy, saving Jabba the Hutt's son!
Don't just Clone Wars on the movie (which was admittedly poor). The rest of the series was waaay better than anything in the Prequels, and some arcs (Carnage of Krell, Return of Darth Maul, Domino Squad) are in my opinion as good story-wise as the Original Triligy
mitch_rifle wrote:Well i dont think the EU could be any worse than half the crap that was put into the movies
You would be wrong. So painfully wrong. Some of it was better, to be sure, but a lot of it was also just incredibly horrible.
chaos0xomega wrote:They basically just killed part of what makes Star Wars Star Wars.
They killed the part of Star Wars that made people think there was something wrong with Star Wars fans, and justifiably so. It was also the completely unnecessary part of the Star Wars universe. Sure some of it was fun, but was still basically pre-internet fan faction for the most part.
chaos0xomega wrote:If they were intelligent, they would have instead approached Chee to direct them to a good place to start
Or they could take control and forge their own path. If he had any special insight he should have shared it with Lucas during the prequels. Instead he debates the number of toes on Yoda. If he was going to create content instead of catalog it he could have done so a long time ago. Still:
After The Walt Disney Company's acquisition of Lucasfilm, Chee was assigned a job within the newly formed Lucasfilm Story Group, whose main purpose is to eliminate the Star Wars franchise's current canon hierarchy and create one cohesive canon.
Outside of KotOR 1/2 (and the background fluff that makes up that setting), the Thrawn Trilogy and Duology, and maybe a handful of other works there is really nothing of value in the EU. Sadly, most of it is just a rehash of the OT and lacks any real imagination or creativity. The Vong had potential, but poor writing kept that series from being great.
mitch_rifle wrote:Well i dont think the EU could be any worse than half the crap that was put into the movies
You would be wrong. So painfully wrong. Some of it was better, to be sure, but a lot of it was also just incredibly horrible.
Your opinion.
chaos0xomega wrote:They basically just killed part of what makes Star Wars Star Wars.
They killed the part of Star Wars that made people think there was something wrong with Star Wars fans, and justifiably so. It was also the completely unnecessary part of the Star Wars universe. Sure some of it was fun, but was still basically pre-internet fan faction for the most part.
What do you mean 'wrong with Star Wars fans'? And I disagree with the fact that it was completely unnecessary, without the EU material, Star Wars would literally just be three movies with a bunch of unexplained continuity gaps. As for fanfic, it was licensed, and a lot of the early works had guidance from GL himself.
chaos0xomega wrote:If they were intelligent, they would have instead approached Chee to direct them to a good place to start
Or they could take control and forge their own path. If he had any special insight he should have shared it with Lucas during the prequels. Instead he debates the number of toes on Yoda. If he was going to create content instead of catalog it he could have done so a long time ago. Still:
After The Walt Disney Company's acquisition of Lucasfilm, Chee was assigned a job within the newly formed Lucasfilm Story Group, whose main purpose is to eliminate the Star Wars franchise's current canon hierarchy and create one cohesive canon.
Right, they took Chee and are completely misusing all his skills and knowledge to destroy everything he knows, etc. instead of building upon it further. As for sharing it with Lucas during the prequels, I would argue that he did, given that those films really didn't tread too heavily on the established EU material, and in fact meshed with them fairly well.
It's a pretty decent one. Mara Jade? Awesome. Thrawn? Awesome. Darth Bane? Super awesome.
Constant clones of the Emperor? Lame. Constant attempts by writers to turn Palpatine into the misunderstood hero? Creepy. Constant stream of Mary Sue characters? Typical of Star Wars' fan fiction writing quality and constant bickering between it's content makers. I think you wrote a decent, if lengthy, bit on why the Vong just don't fit well into Star Wars but they're there now.
There's great stuff in the EU, but there's a lot of trash too. One of the major reasons Knights of the Old Republic caught on so well with fans, was because it completely detached itself from so many of the story elements many fans came to hate in the ABY timeline (it's why Drew Karpyshyn wrote in that time period, because he wanted to avoid all of that stuff).
What do you mean 'wrong with Star Wars fans'? And I disagree with the fact that it was completely unnecessary, without the EU material, Star Wars would literally just be three movies with a bunch of unexplained continuity gaps. As for fanfic, it was licensed, and a lot of the early works had guidance from GL himself.
It's not really a secret that huge sections of the Star Wars fan base hates George Lucas (and that George Lucas hates his fans). Why do they hate George Lucas? No one really knows, unless they're a Star Wars fan and are aware of his constant interference and screwing with EU material that fans are attached to.
It made fans seem baffling and crazy to people who weren't that dedicated.
Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote: Personally out of the EU I'd like to see a Darth Bane trilogy but it has to sell to the general public and after TDKR it'd be harder to sell
There's room for it, as the Prequels did establish Bane as the originator of the Rule of Two on film.
Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote: Personally out of the EU I'd like to see a Darth Bane trilogy but it has to sell to the general public and after TDKR it'd be harder to sell
There's room for it, as the Prequels did establish Bane as the originator of the Rule of Two on film.
It's just non-SW fans may think it's a bit of a rip-off of TDKR because that Bane was very (in)famous
I don't know what all the hate on Yuuzhen Vong is, in the comic series 'Invasion' They are AWESOME. Seriously. Read it.
I dislike most of the star wars Novels. But I love the comics. I was kinda hoping the new trilogy would be about Cade Skywalker. But alas, it seems not to be.
And yes Boba Fett is alive. His armor protected him from the Sarlacc (Well what do you expect, it's Mando Iron) And I know he lived to be at least 70.
I'm actually hoping it'll be Yuuzhen vong as the baddies. Beating up Imps has been done. As well as Battle droids.
It could have also been good if they had done a Old Republic trilogy. Like Mando wars and all that stuff
It could have also been good if they had done a Old Republic trilogy. Like Mando wars and all that stuff
This would be awesome, and where I hoped they would go with the new trilogy when it was announced. It would be what The Hobbit is to LOTR, what the Horus Heresy is to 40k. A whole mytho-history to explore. I want Mandalorian Wars, I want Revan and Malak, I want armies of Jedi and Sith destroying entire planets with the force... instead, we get what I am expecting to be Harry Potter with Lightsabers...
-Shrike- wrote: IIRC, there are 8 films. Let's not forget the FUN that was The Clone Wars, as we watched monstrous caricatures of awful prequel trilogy characters waltz around the galaxy, saving Jabba the Hutt's son!
-Shrike- wrote: IIRC, there are 8 films. Let's not forget the FUN that was The Clone Wars, as we watched monstrous caricatures of awful prequel trilogy characters waltz around the galaxy, saving Jabba the Hutt's son!
-Shrike- wrote: IIRC, there are 8 films. Let's not forget the FUN that was The Clone Wars, as we watched monstrous caricatures of awful prequel trilogy characters waltz around the galaxy, saving Jabba the Hutt's son!
You see, I'm not too uptight about them dropping the EU. As long as they do what they do with the Marvel films and take the best bits out of it and put them on film.
For example, I don't particularly need a film retelling the exact plotline of The Thrawn Trilogy with him planning to conquer the galaxy using the Joruus C Baoth clone and ysalamiri from the planet Myrkkr.
However, I'd be ecstatic about a film with Grand Admiral Thrawn being his space Sherlock Holmes, art studying, Nogri bodyguarded awesome self, with the noble Captain Pallaeon at his side. Having The Emperor's Hand Mara Jade hunting down Luke (and eventually falling in love with him etc) would be awesome as well.
And I'd definitely want 'but it was all so... artistically done...'
-Shrike- wrote: IIRC, there are 8 films. Let's not forget the FUN that was The Clone Wars, as we watched monstrous caricatures of awful prequel trilogy characters waltz around the galaxy, saving Jabba the Hutt's son!
Actually, by ignoring the EU, this means we might get to see something that I was hoping there'd be more of in the EU, but there isn't as much. It's something that harkens to certain elements of Revenge of the Sith (hiss, heresy!) in that RotS showed us things the Republic has that hinted at being predecessors to what we'd see on either side of the conflict in the original trilogy, e.g. the ARC-170s and X-wings, the V-wings and Jedi Starfighters preceding TIE Fighters, and the helmets of the clone pilots were specifically designed to be halfway between Imperial and Rebel pilot helmets. So something which I'd like to see is this coming full-circle: the New Republic acquiring and using Imperial assets. So we see Stormtroopers and Star Destroyers fighting for the New Republic, TIE Fighters fighting alongside X-Wings, etc. or merging technologies to get the best of both worlds.
For over 35 years, the Expanded Universe has enriched the Star Wars experience for fans seeking to continue the adventure beyond what is seen on the screen. When he created Star Wars, George Lucas built a universe that sparked the imagination, and inspired others to create. He opened up that universe to be a creative space for other people to tell their own tales. This became the Expanded Universe, or EU, of comics, novels, videogames, and more.
While Lucasfilm always strived to keep the stories created for the EU consistent with our film and television content as well as internally consistent, Lucas always made it clear that he was not beholden to the EU. He set the films he created as the canon. This includes the six Star Wars episodes, and the many hours of content he developed and produced in Star Wars: The Clone Wars. These stories are the immovable objects of Star Wars history, the characters and events to which all other tales must align.
Now, with an exciting future filled with new cinematic installments of Star Wars, all aspects of Star Wars storytelling moving forward will be connected. Under Lucasfilm President Kathleen Kennedy's direction, the company for the first time ever has formed a story group to oversee and coordinate all Star Wars creative development.
"We have an unprecedented slate of new Star Wars entertainment on the horizon," said Kennedy. "We're set to bring Star Wars back to the big screen, and continue the adventure through games, books, comics, and new formats that are just emerging. This future of interconnected storytelling will allow fans to explore this galaxy in deeper ways than ever before."
In order to give maximum creative freedom to the filmmakers and also preserve an element of surprise and discovery for the audience, Star Wars Episodes VII-IX will not tell the same story told in the post-Return of the Jedi Expanded Universe. While the universe that readers knew is changing, it is not being discarded. Creators of new Star Wars entertainment have full access to the rich content of the Expanded Universe. For example, elements of the EU are included in Star Wars Rebels. The Inquisitor, the Imperial Security Bureau, and Sienar Fleet Systems are story elements in the new animated series, and all these ideas find their origins in roleplaying game material published in the 1980s.
Demand for past tales of the Expanded Universe will keep them in print, presented under the new Legends banner.
On the screen, the first new canon to appear will be Star Wars Rebels. In print, the first new books to come from this creative collaboration include novels from Del Rey Books. First to be announced, John Jackson Miller is writing a novel that precedes the events of Star Wars Rebels and offers insight into a key character's backstory, with input directly from executive producers Dave Filoni, Simon Kinberg, and Greg Weisman.
And this is just the beginning of a creatively aligned program of Star Wars storytelling created by the collaboration of incredibly talented people united by their love of that galaxy far, far away....
Sturmtruppen wrote: Actually, by ignoring the EU, this means we might get to see something that I was hoping there'd be more of in the EU, but there isn't as much. It's something that harkens to certain elements of Revenge of the Sith (hiss, heresy!) in that RotS showed us things the Republic has that hinted at being predecessors to what we'd see on either side of the conflict in the original trilogy, e.g. the ARC-170s and X-wings, the V-wings and Jedi Starfighters preceding TIE Fighters, and the helmets of the clone pilots were specifically designed to be halfway between Imperial and Rebel pilot helmets. So something which I'd like to see is this coming full-circle: the New Republic acquiring and using Imperial assets. So we see Stormtroopers and Star Destroyers fighting for the New Republic, TIE Fighters fighting alongside X-Wings, etc. or merging technologies to get the best of both worlds.
I doubt we'd see Stormtroopers proper fighting for the New Republic, but we definitely might see the use of Imperial Equipment.
IIRC from my limited Star Wars knowledge, the X-wing is superior to the TIE fighter in every way. Having both more onboard firepower and the ability to operate without a carrier.
My guess is we'd see the Republic using repainted Star Destroyers and other Imperial vessels, but continuing to the use B, X, and Y-wing fighter craft. Along with possibly some of the higher end TIE weapons. Imperial ships would get reclassified to distance themselves from the negative connotations of the names. Star Destroyer would have negative PR problems.
Grey Templar wrote: IIRC from my limited Star Wars knowledge, the X-wing is superior to the TIE fighter in every way. Having both more onboard firepower and the ability to operate without a carrier.
In a one on one situation sure, but there is no one on one with a TIE fighter; it is four against one, or more. They are cheaper, quicker to replace, and pack a lot of punch for their size.
I doubt we'd see Stormtroopers proper fighting for the New Republic, but we definitely might see the use of Imperial Equipment.
Nah, for Stormtroopers for the good guys, you need to hit the Legacy period, over 100 years in the Star Wars future. Then you also get "grey" jedi, and a Death-stick smoking Skywalker, who still has R2-D2.
Ahtman wrote: Depends on if you believe Stormtroopers are clones or guys in armor, I suppose.
"Grey Jedi" are a terrible idea.
Aren't Stormtroopers supposed to be both? That is, the first cadres were made up of clones, but the Empire later began recruiting non-clones into the Stormtrooper ranks. None of the officers we see in the films are clones from A New Hope on, and it seems somewhat unlikely that the Empire would have completely separate recruiting paths for Stormtroopers and officers, especially considering almost all of the pilots and other officers during the Clone Wars era were clones.
Ahtman wrote: Depends on if you believe Stormtroopers are clones or guys in armor, I suppose.
"Grey Jedi" are a terrible idea.
Aren't Stormtroopers supposed to be both? That is, the first cadres were made up of clones, but the Empire later began recruiting non-clones into the Stormtrooper ranks. None of the officers we see in the films are clones from A New Hope on, and it seems somewhat unlikely that the Empire would have completely separate recruiting paths for Stormtroopers and officers, especially considering almost all of the pilots and other officers during the Clone Wars era were clones.
Wasn't Han Solo a Stormtrooper in training at some point?
Ahtman wrote: Depends on if you believe Stormtroopers are clones or guys in armor, I suppose.
"Grey Jedi" are a terrible idea.
Aren't Stormtroopers supposed to be both? That is, the first cadres were made up of clones, but the Empire later began recruiting non-clones into the Stormtrooper ranks. None of the officers we see in the films are clones from A New Hope on, and it seems somewhat unlikely that the Empire would have completely separate recruiting paths for Stormtroopers and officers, especially considering almost all of the pilots and other officers during the Clone Wars era were clones.
Wasn't Han Solo a Stormtrooper in training at some point?
Yeah, I thought I had heard something in the past about how he looked "natural" in his trooper armor.
Wasn't it something about transporting Chewbacca as a prisoner/slave that made him change his mind so he rescued him and that's how Chewy owes him a life debt?
Ahtman wrote: Depends on if you believe Stormtroopers are clones or guys in armor, I suppose.
"Grey Jedi" are a terrible idea.
Aren't Stormtroopers supposed to be both? That is, the first cadres were made up of clones, but the Empire later began recruiting non-clones into the Stormtrooper ranks. None of the officers we see in the films are clones from A New Hope on, and it seems somewhat unlikely that the Empire would have completely separate recruiting paths for Stormtroopers and officers, especially considering almost all of the pilots and other officers during the Clone Wars era were clones.
Wasn't Han Solo a Stormtrooper in training at some point?
Navy Officer actually.
But don't Imperial Navy officers lead Stormtrooper units?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
d-usa wrote: Yeah, I thought I had heard something in the past about how he looked "natural" in his trooper armor.
Wasn't it something about transporting Chewbacca as a prisoner/slave that made him change his mind so he rescued him and that's how Chewy owes him a life debt?
I don't know the exact details, but yes. I believe he was a low-level Imperial Navy officer when he helped Chewie escape.
d-usa wrote:Yeah, I thought I had heard something in the past about how he looked "natural" in his trooper armor.
Wasn't it something about transporting Chewbacca as a prisoner/slave that made him change his mind so he rescued him and that's how Chewy owes him a life debt?
Depends on which you read. The more recent version(from the Han Solo trilogy which is not a bad trilogy) is that Chewbacca was part of a slave detail on Coruscant that Han was in charge of during his Academy years, and that Han stepped in and was insubordinate to a superior officer because he "recognized when a Wookiee was about to go into a frenzy and didn't want to see a Wookiee get killed".
Hordini wrote:
But don't Imperial Navy officers lead Stormtrooper units?
Again it depends on what you read. In some stuff, Navy officers lead Stormtrooper units regularly while in other stuff the Navy officers only are in charge when it's shipboard actions or near naval installations. Otherwise they are led by Imperial Army officers wearing Stormtrooper armor.
-Shrike- wrote: IIRC, there are 8 films. Let's not forget the FUN that was The Clone Wars, as we watched monstrous caricatures of awful prequel trilogy characters waltz around the galaxy, saving Jabba the Hutt's son!
What's great about the EU is that there are a number of gems for each fan. What sucks about the EU is that, for that same fan, the rest of it doesn't fit. To wit: For me, yuzhan vong or whatever make no sense in SW. Others can't imagine SW without them.
Sturmtruppen wrote: Actually, by ignoring the EU, this means we might get to see something that I was hoping there'd be more of in the EU, but there isn't as much. It's something that harkens to certain elements of Revenge of the Sith (hiss, heresy!) in that RotS showed us things the Republic has that hinted at being predecessors to what we'd see on either side of the conflict in the original trilogy, e.g. the ARC-170s and X-wings, the V-wings and Jedi Starfighters preceding TIE Fighters, and the helmets of the clone pilots were specifically designed to be halfway between Imperial and Rebel pilot helmets. So something which I'd like to see is this coming full-circle: the New Republic acquiring and using Imperial assets. So we see Stormtroopers and Star Destroyers fighting for the New Republic, TIE Fighters fighting alongside X-Wings, etc. or merging technologies to get the best of both worlds.
I doubt we'd see Stormtroopers proper fighting for the New Republic, but we definitely might see the use of Imperial Equipment.
IIRC from my limited Star Wars knowledge, the X-wing is superior to the TIE fighter in every way. Having both more onboard firepower and the ability to operate without a carrier.
My guess is we'd see the Republic using repainted Star Destroyers and other Imperial vessels, but continuing to the use B, X, and Y-wing fighter craft. Along with possibly some of the higher end TIE weapons. Imperial ships would get reclassified to distance themselves from the negative connotations of the names. Star Destroyer would have negative PR problems.
Just rename them Star Saviours then. It turns out that what I have in mind for my Rebel + Imperial = New Republic idea can be seen in this pic from some Yuuzahn Vong comic:
Spoiler:
Basically, friendlier Stormtrooper armour.
But then that also leads me to think that all this really depends on what angle they're going to go with in terms of the conflict. The New Republic vs Imperial Remnant conflicts seemed pretty indistinguishable from the Rebels vs Empire conflicts, and probably deliberately because then it's easy to distinguish the goodies from the baddies. However, the above example of a half-way between Rebel and Imperial was possible because it was all-new baddies whom they could be contrasted with.
Which also brings up the question, who's going to be fighting these new Star Wars? Are they going to go the Rebels in power vs ousted Imperials route? Or New Republic vs new enemy?
Outside of Dark Empire, Dark Empire II and Empire's End, was this prevalent anywhere else?
Manchu wrote: What's great about the EU is that there are a number of gems for each fan. What sucks about the EU is that, for that same fan, the rest of it doesn't fit. To wit: For me, yuzhan vong or whatever make no sense in SW. Others can't imagine SW without them.
Which is perfectly fine. I mean, there are various SW books that I've hated (Children of the Jedi... oh my God what a slog that was to read). That said it just seems so callous to so casually throw this all away, almost as if the very idea of sorting out and codifying any part of the EU was just shoved in a 'too hard' basket.
Outside of Dark Empire, Dark Empire II and Empire's End, was this prevalent anywhere else?
It's not that it was prevalent overall, but for several years in the early 90's (I think that's when it was) it seemed to be the only plot line in the EU. Stuff would happen and bam, there'd be an Emperor Clone, or a failed Emperor Clone, someone claiming to be the Emperor's Son, his Lover or someone pretending to be an Emperor Clone behind it all. The whole thing just became pedantic.
It's just example of a larger EU problem, which is that for every awesome idea in the EU, there's something equally terrible.
Which is perfectly fine. I mean, there are various SW books that I've hated (Children of the Jedi... oh my God what a slog that was to read). That said it just seems so callous to so casually throw this all away, almost as if the very idea of sorting out and codifying any part of the EU was just shoved in a 'too hard' basket.
See I'm a little more optimistic on this point. They've made it clear they're not going to play by the EU's rules and no one should expect them to, but that doesn't mean they're not going to take things that are popular and use them in their own ways. I'm not going to be shocked if we see Coran Horn, Mara Jade, Thrawn, or the Solo children at some point in the new Disney Canon. They might not be what we remembered, but their names alone have a lot of $$ behind them, and deciding to throw out the current EU canon as too difficult or unweildy is different from never touching any of its ideas ever again.
So I'm really not taking this news well, they've basically thrown out 5000 years of Star Wars history (technically more if you count the Dawn of the Jedi series set like 25,000-30,000 BBY) and everything I thought I knew about Star Wars is a lie. This is a big deal for me, it was my childhood, Star Wars was basically all I had for a number of years after my parents made me change schools and I pretty much had no friends and was picked on relentlessly, now thats pretty much all gone. Sure they *might* revisit concepts and such, but it won't be the same. As much as I hated the Yuuzhan Vong and everything after, and as silly as some of the storylines were (especially some of the earlier works), I would sooner take that than a whole reboot of the series....
On the flip side, I suppose this means I'll be able to actually keep pace with the setting now that theres only a handful of 'canon' sources :/
On the flip side, I suppose this means I'll be able to actually keep pace with the setting now that theres only a handful of 'canon' sources :/
I think that regardless, this is what makes this a good thing. The EU as we have it now is spread over 30+ years of games, books, comics, films, tv shows, and other materials.
One reason why Lucas probably became so bitter about the EU is that it grew even beyond his ability to keep pace with it. And while we can all praise the Keeper of the Holocron, he too is only human. There have been numerous minor continuity errors under his tenure and that's understandable with something so large.
The fans are now attached to something I don't think anyone can reasonably be expected to keep up with and Disney certainly can't base an entire marketing strategy on appeasing simply Star Wars fans attached to the EU when the wider public has probably never even heard of most of it. This is the only direction they can realistically take.
I disagree, Disney could easily have kept the main existing EU continuity intact (by which I mean the overarching storyline, etc.) and selectively pruned out the weaker elements of the canon. For every Grand Admiral Thrawn there is a Jaxxon, I can understand wanting to eliminate the latter, but the former???
Instead they just wholesale eliminated basically everything, wiping out Shadows of the Empire and the Thrawn series alongside Droids and Ewoks.
I suppose this is probably a better approach, as it allows them to effectively start over in an additive process which is way easier than a subtractive one... but if thats the path they're taking, why not begin by revising and reprinting some of the existing works? There is no reason they can' t make revisions to Shadows or the Thrawn trilogy, etc. to suit their new vision for the series and republish them. In fact, they would effectively be making money by selling us the same product twice, so fiscally it would be a genius move on their part, as well as one that keeps some of the top tier elements of continuity intact.
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Apparently this is what Disney considers worthy of 'canon'.
It would have been so easy for them to have kept large story arcs (Like Thrawn, Shadows of the Empire, Rogue Squadron, etc) and drop all the weird small stuff. the Yuuzang Vong are a non-entitiy, as they could place their stuff before it happens, and worry about keeping/dropping later.
It's painfully obvious to me which parts of the EU are considered canon to the majority of Star Wars fans, and I have not even read all the most popular stuff.
Most of the most popular story arcs are considered more important to the universe than the prequel trilogy, so that speaks to their quality.
Disney just wants to make it so that anything they put out, regardless of quality, is the "one and only".
Not really, and even if it was, I know I wouldn't want to come in being beholden to decades worth of side projects with varying levels of sub canon. A cleansing fire to clear the forest and start over is needed sometimes, and this is one of those times. Of course I'm not really one for sacred cows, so I don't mind a little steak. I'm more concerned with them doing the next trilogy well far more than adhering to Timothy Zahn's vision.
Does this mean KOTOR is no longer cannon? Disappointing, I really liked that era. Honestly wish the movies were going to be set then. I'd pay to see the Mando wars or the Sith-Republic conflict.
They just will not be using ANY of the post-jedi stuff for inspiration for the new movies.
So no Luke marries mara jade, hand and leia have precocious jedi, chewbacca mauled by a hungry gundark (or whatever) IN THE MOVIES.
They are STILL going to be published as is whilst people will buy them, under their OWN label of "legends". Think of them as that section of the fluff that is locked away in its own universe.
LordofHats wrote: It's not that it was prevalent overall, but for several years in the early 90's (I think that's when it was) it seemed to be the only plot line in the EU. Stuff would happen and bam, there'd be an Emperor Clone, or a failed Emperor Clone, someone claiming to be the Emperor's Son, his Lover or someone pretending to be an Emperor Clone behind it all. The whole thing just became pedantic.
I recall a series of books (one of was "The Glove of Darth Vader", IIRC) that dealt with a guy with three eyes claiming that, but those books were declared non-canon years and years ago. So really it was just Dark Empire (and its subsequent sequel and wrap-up comics). Hardly an epidemic, and hardly representative of the EU as a whole. Super-weapons were the thing that was proliferated far too often (although a lot of that comes down to Kevin J. Anderson, who gave us the World Destroyers in Dark Empire, the Galaxy Gun in Dark Empire II, the Eclipse I and Eclipse II in both Dark Empire books, the Sun Crusher in the Jedi Academy series, the prototype Death Star in the same series, the Darksaber in Darksaber, and so on).
LordofHats wrote: It's just example of a larger EU problem, which is that for every awesome idea in the EU, there's something equally terrible.
Something that's not unique to SW either, and certainly not a reason to throw it all away.
LordofHats wrote: See I'm a little more optimistic on this point. They've made it clear they're not going to play by the EU's rules and no one should expect them to, but that doesn't mean they're not going to take things that are popular and use them in their own ways. I'm not going to be shocked if we see Coran Horn, Mara Jade, Thrawn, or the Solo children at some point in the new Disney Canon. They might not be what we remembered, but their names alone have a lot of $$ behind them, and deciding to throw out the current EU canon as too difficult or unweildy is different from never touching any of its ideas ever again.
I guess we'll see, but in the end the point I made originall stands: I think this is a cruel fate for the writers of these works, regardless of their quality or however much you or I like them. I mean look at the last SW novel produced before this announcement. How do you think it feels to write a book that gets (essentially) invalidated faster than any other? I kinda know what that's like, so that's why I sympathise with them.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I guess we'll see, but in the end the point I made originall stands: I think this is a cruel fate for the writers of these works, regardless of their quality or however much you or I like them. I mean look at the last SW novel produced before this announcement. How do you think it feels to write a book that gets (essentially) invalidated faster than any other? I kinda know what that's like, so that's why I sympathise with them.
Why would it feel any different than normal? Lucas' stance on the EU was always, "Anything not done by me isn't really canon, but on the other hand, I fething LOVE licensing money, so, yeah, write away, and we'll give it some 'kinda but not really canon' label."
chromedog wrote: No, the existing canon that was IS STILL THERE.
The video games are as canon as the books: They're both C-canon, which means KotoR and all the Lucas Arts games are out, too.
Being made by a Lucas company didn't give anything more canonicity in the Holocron.
Basically, the only things we know are IN for definite are G and T-canon(movies and Clone Wars show).
LoL! I cannot wait for someone to group the various canons into a multicolored graph for my momentary amusement. I sounds like a full 21 gun salute at this point!
chromedog wrote: No, the existing canon that was IS STILL THERE.
The video games are as canon as the books: They're both C-canon, which means KotoR and all the Lucas Arts games are out, too.
Being made by a Lucas company didn't give anything more canonicity in the Holocron.
Basically, the only things we know are IN for definite are G and T-canon(movies and Clone Wars show).
LoL! I cannot wait for someone to group the various canons into a multicolored graph for my momentary amusement. I sounds like a full 21 gun salute at this point!
That's as good as you're gonna get and as much as anyone outside of Lucasfilm/arts has ever seen of the Holocron. They won't publish it as the Holocron contains upcoming projects as well as everything past.
Another thing I'd like to see in Star Wars 7 is the return of a truly under-appreciated (at least by the fans, the EU has been using him loads) staple of Star Wars. Forget Boba Fett - who at the end of the day didn't really do much besides tie Luke up with a toy he kept on his wrist before getting owned. I want to see the guy who survived the attack on the first Death Star, took down an AT-AT on Hoth, and then did half the job of destroying the second Death Star: Wedge Antilles.
Seaward wrote: Why would it feel any different than normal? Lucas' stance on the EU was always, "Anything not done by me isn't really canon, but on the other hand, I fething LOVE licensing money, so, yeah, write away, and we'll give it some 'kinda but not really canon' label."
It wasn't that at all. There was a specific system set up, and there were people who looked after the history of SW (pre- and post-movies). Disney is saying that these are now, basically, an alternate timeline.
The problem I have is that if all the EU is out for Disney, how are they planning on explaining what happened during all those intervening years from Episode 6-7 when doing the setup for this movie? That's a huge time lapse to simply wave away. Just say "nothing of note" happened for several decades, in the crawl before the movie?
AegisGrimm wrote: The problem I have is that if all the EU is out for Disney, how are they planning on explaining what happened during all those intervening years from Episode 6-7 when doing the setup for this movie? That's a huge time lapse to simply wave away. Just say "nothing of note" happened for several decades, in the crawl before the movie?
They aren't saying nothing happened in that time period, they are just going to come up with their own stories for it instead of using old fan faction with terrible rankings like T-Canon, G-Canon, and C-Canon. Now there will just be canon.
AegisGrimm wrote: The problem I have is that if all the EU is out for Disney, how are they planning on explaining what happened during all those intervening years from Episode 6-7 when doing the setup for this movie? That's a huge time lapse to simply wave away. Just say "nothing of note" happened for several decades, in the crawl before the movie?
If only there was a way to quickly explain, at the beginning of the movie, whats been going on over the past few years...
Well come on man. The point of the opening crawl is to set the stage. We don't need to know every event of the past 15 years to catch up for a 2-3 hour story (and lets be honest, between all the special effects and action sequences, its gonna be more like a 1 hours story with regular intermission).
H.B.M.C. wrote: It wasn't that at all. There was a specific system set up, and there were people who looked after the history of SW (pre- and post-movies). Disney is saying that these are not, basically, an alternate timeline.
That's what LucasArts said, yes.
If you've ever listened to Lucas himself speak on the EU, though? It's pretty clear he regards none of it as canon. His habit of purloining ideas, characters, designs, etc. and incorporating them without regard for whether or not such incorporation makes sense given their original source should tell you all you need to know about his opinion of the EU.
I think it's pretty apparent that Lucas came to hate his fans, and likewise came to regard the works that fans often loved more than his own with maybe more hate than what he felt for his fans.
I mean, he renamed Korriban, one of the most iconic planets of the EU to Moraband for like no damn reason. It's like he was just trying to find a minor way to spite the fan base.
LordofHats wrote: I think it's pretty apparent that Lucas came to hate his fans, and likewise came to regard the works that fans often loved more than his own with maybe more hate than what he felt for his fans.
I mean, he renamed Korriban, one of the most iconic planets of the EU to Moraband for like no damn reason. It's like he was just trying to find a minor way to spite the fan base.
Like anybody cared about the new name he gave Korriban.
While I enjoy playing in some mocking hate of Lucas, I mostly pity the man. He was riding high when everyone only had positive things to say about his work, but when he made something less than good and everyone called him out on it, he freaked. He's the most childish creator in Hollywood, throwing temper tantrums because people had the gaul to tell him his newest movies just weren't that good.
So so started a downward spiral of Lucas being a big baby and his fans growing more and more spiteful. He got more, far more, than he deserved, but he's hardly the only creator with haters. What he is is one of the few creators to respond to his haters with hate and to lump in everyone who still liked him with the haters in a scorched earth campaign against his own franchise*.
I guess he just got sick of it all in the end. Hopefully he's happier now that he's not involved.
*An illustrious position he shares with Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
LordofHats wrote: I think it's pretty apparent that Lucas came to hate his fans, and likewise came to regard the works that fans often loved more than his own with maybe more hate than what he felt for his fans.
I mean, he renamed Korriban, one of the most iconic planets of the EU to Moraband for like no damn reason. It's like he was just trying to find a minor way to spite the fan base.
Like anybody cared about the new name he gave Korriban.
Perhaps the planet was just renamed in the thousands of years between the Old Republic Era and the Clone Wars era, or perhaps someone finally figured out that this was where all the sith were coming from and nuked it from orbit like they should have done in the first place.
Well, I might try the book written by Hearne. He's the only author in that group I've heard of and I enjoy the Iron Druid novels.
That said outside of the Heir of Empire trilogy, Rogue Squadron, and I, Jedi (I like Horn damnit!) I don't give a crap about the EU. It jumped the shark for me a long time ago with the Vong. Till that point I read everything Star Wars put out regardless of how good or bad it was. And there were some stinkers.
Oddly I think one of my biggest issues with the prequels was how Lucas spit on the world Zhan had helped revitalize. And then the actual movies happened
I'm trusting Disney on this. They've given us a Marvel universe that is only getting better. So I'm hoping they can do the same with Star Wars.
I have to admit, I really like the deliberate way Disney is beginning this universal reboot- and I hold no illusions that that is what has taken place here. Heir to the Jedi as the initial standalone novel, meant to revitalize a franchise as Heir to the Empire did all those years ago is too self aware a reference to the Star Wars meta. After 'Empire', you had 'Jedi', and so this universe is the natural sequel to a time that pushed the Star Wars Universe to the darkest brinks of destruction.
I admit, I would rather have a clean break like this than the constant revisions that were previously implemented. 'Han shot first', or the twenty origins of Boba Fett remain in my eyes as the worst offenders of the old EU's shifting realities.
May this usher in a time of peace and order in the galaxy! I'll show my respect by getting these titles form the library once they are out. Star Wars literature has always required previewing before purchasing.
AegisGrimm wrote: The problem I have is that if all the EU is out for Disney, how are they planning on explaining what happened during all those intervening years from Episode 6-7 when doing the setup for this movie? That's a huge time lapse to simply wave away. Just say "nothing of note" happened for several decades, in the crawl before the movie?
If only there was a way to quickly explain, at the beginning of the movie, whats been going on over the past few years...
So... I'm actually wondering if the opening crawl is going to remain... you see, the opening of the Star Wars films is actually in violation of Screen Actors Guild or Film Directors Guild rules, which requires that there be opening credits or whatever. George Lucas got around this by leaving the Guild and using non-union actors, but Lucasfilm was a privately owned company that could get away with that... Disney... not so much.
LordofHats wrote: I think it's pretty apparent that Lucas came to hate his fans, and likewise came to regard the works that fans often loved more than his own with maybe more hate than what he felt for his fans.
I mean, he renamed Korriban, one of the most iconic planets of the EU to Moraband for like no damn reason. It's like he was just trying to find a minor way to spite the fan base.
Didn't the episode state that Korriban was the ancient name for the planet though?
That said outside of the Heir of Empire trilogy, Rogue Squadron, and I, Jedi (I like Horn damnit!) I don't give a crap about the EU. It jumped the shark for me a long time ago with the Vong. Till that point I read everything Star Wars put out regardless of how good or bad it was. And there were some stinkers.
Agreed (also you forgot Shadows!!!)
Oddly I think one of my biggest issues with the prequels was how Lucas spit on the world Zhan had helped revitalize.
What you mean the timeline/historical inconsistencies with the Thrawn trilogies description of the Clone Wars? Well, to be fair, Zahn was provided all that information by Lucas, so he really wasn't 'spitting' on Zahn, as Zahn didn't come up with any of that stuff, if anything he was spitting on himself (which isn't surprising considering how many revisions and changes the films have gone through in their production histories). As they say, the Lucas giveth, and the Lucas taketh away again.
I'm trusting Disney on this. They've given us a Marvel universe that is only getting better. So I'm hoping they can do the same with Star Wars.
This is perhaps one of the few things I can sorta agree with, though I'm still adverse to reading Marvel comics, and this only lasts until Dinsey-Marvel decides to reboot the entire universe AGAIN, otherwise it isn't *that* big an improvement, ffs the superior spiderman is becoming peter parker again... let the dead stay dead damnit!
Also, is there anything really substantial to go on with this whole Lucas hates Star Wars fans thing? or is it all just butthurt fan-slander?
Zhan still brought the god awful idea of Lucas's to life with his outline of the old republic and clone wars so it's still spitting (to me) on the author who revitalized your brand. Especially when Zhan probably had to fix the idea like so many of Lucas's writers/directors in the initial trilogy had to
But then again I pretty much loathe Lucas so I might be a bit biased.
I dont understand the Lucas hate. I mean, I understand not being happy with him for his ceaseless revisions to the films, and some poor choices made with the prequels, and the retcons to things that EU authors made, but it is his universe and setting, and without him none of it would exist.
chaos0xomega wrote: I dont understand the Lucas hate. I mean, I understand not being happy with him for his ceaseless revisions to the films, and some poor choices made with the prequels, and the retcons to things that EU authors made, but it is his universe and setting, and without him none of it would exist.
And without his collaborators it would have been a much shittier universe that very few cared about. I'm sure you have seen the making of documentaries on the original trilogy, and know how much of it was changed by the directors/producers/actors involved. It wasn't developed in a vacuum until the prequels, and those are terrible. I agree that hate is to strong an emotion, though I do get it as people tend to get emotional when you stomp all over something they love with such disregard for both them and it. I think he is just a great producer and terrible at everything else involved in film making.
As they say, the Lucas giveth, and the Lucas taketh away again.
Which is why the authors of the EU should have seen this coming a mile away.
Call me weird, but frankly, this is why any good agent, publisher, or lawyer, warns writers about fan fiction.
Fan fiction is a dangerous thing for multiple reasons for a creator. At one point, Lucas gave people the go ahead to write in his universe and develop it. Yes he owns it. Yes he set up a teired canon. But it's a pandora's box. Fans became attached to the EU. They loved it like they loved the films. Once you've done that, you can't just disregard it and not expect consequences.
I enjoyed the Dark Fleet trilogy and Shadows of the Empire. However, I am looking forward to completely new material, because, you know, surprises and stuff!
So, I was just revisiting some EU stuff in my free time at work...
I think Grand Admiral Thrawn's last words are quite fitting, and given that he is perhaps the most iconic and memorable figure of the EU, and his trilogy perhaps one of the greatest losses in the reset, it seems appropriate that he would be the one to utter them:
I do think that Lucas not being the director is healthy for the brand. He is such an awesome idea guy, but then he does a complete 180 when it comes to being a director, and is absolute crap. I credit most of what's wrong with the prequels to everyone around him being absolute yes-men, so every harebrained idea got greenlit, because he's a "genius".
I mean isn't he the one that demanded Hayden Christiansen be "more melodramatic" with his deliveries? That was one of the worst things about the entire trilogy!
chaos0xomega wrote: I dont understand the Lucas hate. I mean, I understand not being happy with him for his ceaseless revisions to the films, and some poor choices made with the prequels, and the retcons to things that EU authors made, but it is his universe and setting, and without him none of it would exist.
And without his collaborators it would have been a much shittier universe that very few cared about. I'm sure you have seen the making of documentaries on the original trilogy, and know how much of it was changed by the directors/producers/actors involved. It wasn't developed in a vacuum until the prequels, and those are terrible. I agree that hate is to strong an emotion, though I do get it as people tend to get emotional when you stomp all over something they love with such disregard for both them and it. I think he is just a great producer and terrible at everything else involved in film making.
As they say, the Lucas giveth, and the Lucas taketh away again.
Which is why the authors of the EU should have seen this coming a mile away.
Didn't he direct THX 1138 and American Graffiti? Then again he could of got lucky and accidentally made good films.
chaos0xomega wrote: I dont understand the Lucas hate. I mean, I understand not being happy with him for his ceaseless revisions to the films, and some poor choices made with the prequels, and the retcons to things that EU authors made, but it is his universe and setting, and without him none of it would exist.
And without his collaborators it would have been a much shittier universe that very few cared about. I'm sure you have seen the making of documentaries on the original trilogy, and know how much of it was changed by the directors/producers/actors involved. It wasn't developed in a vacuum until the prequels, and those are terrible. I agree that hate is to strong an emotion, though I do get it as people tend to get emotional when you stomp all over something they love with such disregard for both them and it. I think he is just a great producer and terrible at everything else involved in film making.
As they say, the Lucas giveth, and the Lucas taketh away again.
Which is why the authors of the EU should have seen this coming a mile away.
Didn't he direct THX 1138 and American Graffiti? Then again he could of got lucky and accidentally made good films.
He WAS a good director. The issue is he forgot that being a good director means accepting criticism and advice/input from those around you and not just having a vision.
Hulksmash wrote: Zhan still brought the god awful idea of Lucas's to life with his outline of the old republic and clone wars so it's still spitting (to me) on the author who revitalized your brand. Especially when Zhan probably had to fix the idea like so many of Lucas's writers/directors in the initial trilogy had to
But then again I pretty much loathe Lucas so I might be a bit biased.
Hey, no. The Old Republic's not so bad. KotOR II remains the best Star Wars story told, in no small part because it deconstructs Star Wars stories.
Original Indiana Jones trilogy. Spielberg and Lucas. Awesome.
Star Wars A New Hope. Spielberg and Lucas. Also awesome.
Empire Strikes Back. Irvin Kirshner. One of the best films ever.
Return of the Jedi. Some guy I don't know, plus Lucas. Good and bad parts.
Compel wrote: Indiana Jones 4 - Lucas and Spielberg. Terrible
Lucas wanted the movie that we got and lobbied hard for it. Ford and Spielberg weren't keen on the Alien idea but eventually relented.
Steven Spielberg wrote:I sympathize with people who didn’t like the MacGuffin because I never liked the MacGuffin. George and I had big arguments about the MacGuffin. I didn’t want these things to be either aliens or inter-dimensional beings. But I am loyal to my best friend. When he writes a story he believes in – even if I don’t believe in it – I’m going to shoot the movie the way George envisaged it. I’ll add my own touches, I’ll bring my own cast in, I’ll shoot the way I want to shoot it, but I will always defer to George as the storyteller of the Indy series. I will never fight him on that.
Hulksmash wrote: Zhan still brought the god awful idea of Lucas's to life with his outline of the old republic and clone wars so it's still spitting (to me) on the author who revitalized your brand. Especially when Zhan probably had to fix the idea like so many of Lucas's writers/directors in the initial trilogy had to
But then again I pretty much loathe Lucas so I might be a bit biased.
Hey, no. The Old Republic's not so bad. KotOR II remains the best Star Wars story told, in no small part because it deconstructs Star Wars stories.
Man I still wish that they could have had the time to truly complete the game.
chaos0xomega wrote: I dont understand the Lucas hate. I mean, I understand not being happy with him for his ceaseless revisions to the films, and some poor choices made with the prequels, and the retcons to things that EU authors made, but it is his universe and setting, and without him none of it would exist.
And without his collaborators it would have been a much shittier universe that very few cared about. I'm sure you have seen the making of documentaries on the original trilogy, and know how much of it was changed by the directors/producers/actors involved. It wasn't developed in a vacuum until the prequels, and those are terrible. I agree that hate is to strong an emotion, though I do get it as people tend to get emotional when you stomp all over something they love with such disregard for both them and it. I think he is just a great producer and terrible at everything else involved in film making.
As they say, the Lucas giveth, and the Lucas taketh away again.
Which is why the authors of the EU should have seen this coming a mile away.
Didn't he direct THX 1138 and American Graffiti? Then again he could of got lucky and accidentally made good films.
I think it was because back then he couldn't go "Greenscreen dat schiz" or "we'll add all the stuff in with the effects" and actually had to have real sets, and real actors.
Lucas did decent when he didn't have all the money in the world. When he actually had to be creative to solve budgetary problems and take risks.* When you don't have much to work with, you have to be creative. It's the only way to make it work. You crash or you burn. When you have a gak ton of money, sure you can make something great, but damn do you stop really thinking in the same constrained terms.
*and no, there is a difference between taking a gamble, and just splooging on something that looks cool.
Hey, speaking of MacGuffins, that's something the EU loved to bring in that I really hope doesn't happen in the new trilogy. Something the Jedi and Sith are absolutely obsessed with in almost every single EU story featuring them is finding relics, usually because the Sith know it'll give them unlimited POWER!™ and the Jedi want it either so the Sith don't get it or so that they can use it for the powers of GOOD!™
It makes Palpatine look a bit weird in comparison - what with him relying on the non-force-related technology of the Death Star to rule the galaxy.
You do know that (by definition) 'MacGuffins' are common to pretty much *every* story/plot ever, right? Even those that were written before the term MacGuffin was created... complaining about MacGuffins in Star Wars is like complaining about that characters have names, its pointless.
Otherwise, yes, I do agree it seems a silly trope that keeps popping up in Star Wars, the ancient Sith/Jedi/Alien/Space Wizard relic/superweapon that will let evil conquer the galaxy... its like, seriously how many of these damned things do they just have lying around, and how are they never properly secured by a resource-rich government body BEFORE it becomes an issue?
chaos0xomega wrote: You do know that (by definition) 'MacGuffins' are common to pretty much *every* story/plot ever, right? Even those that were written before the term MacGuffin was created... complaining about MacGuffins in Star Wars is like complaining about that characters have names, its pointless.
Not necessarily. MacGuffins are often lazy writing, not always, but often. They're oftne used as a call to action in place of any sort of character development, and then they end up being used in place of any plot development. Basically, a MacGuffin becomes a bad thing when in its role as an inanimate object it removes from characters their ability to act. The story becomes the story of the MacGuffin's tragic abuse at the hands of others, rather than the story of any particular character. As you might expect, its rather commonly used in this manner in a lot of pop fiction.
EDIT: Also, given how obviously common the MacGuffin is, the general plot line of any story revolving around one becomes ludicrously predictable.
Writing Tip #456; Use the MacGuffin at your own peril.
Almost *every* story has a plot device of some sort at some point in them that can be labeled as a MacGuffin, even going as far back as greek mythology, and those fethers knew how to tell a good story. A MacGuffin does not need to be a central point of a plot to be a MacGuffin, its only when the MacGuffin *IS* the central point of a plot that it becomes a serious issue.
I would argue, btw, that the Crystal Skull is not a MacGuffin, as a MacGuffin is defined as something that is otherwise interchangeable (in other words you can substitute 'microwave bean burrito' in for whatever it is and it will still tell the same story. If you recall, the crystal skull is utilized towards the end of the film by placing it on the err... statue corpse thing, resulting in some crazy gak... and not the sort of crazy gak that would happen with a microwave bean burrito. It only seems to be a MacGuffin due to poor writing (in my opinion) not making it clear what the impact of that event was on the characters, and possibly it also being due to the fact that the event was at the very end of the film not allowing for further character development/exposition, etc.
Really the Crystal Skull is no different than Ark in Raiders of the Lost Ark (in fact, the two might as well be the same film), and similar could *almost* be said of The Last Crusade. The only reason people are up in arms over the Crystal Skull is because Shia LeB... Beeeooof... Biff... Beuof... you know who I mean...
chaos0xomega wrote: Almost *every* story has a plot device of some sort at some point in them that can be labeled as a MacGuffin, even going as far back as greek mythology, and those fethers knew how to tell a good story.
Even as a centerpoint, it's all an issue of handling. Take for example the typical video game MacGuffin; random ancient object that is found early in the story then taken by bad guy then heroes pursue badguy all over the place going through some typical plot points before they reach the end. Now, movies and games often get away with this. They only have 2-3 hours to tell a story (majority of game time is spent playing, not narrating) and often have to use lazy writing to expediate but that's fine because the plot is only part of a movie/game. There's also visuals and sound, and a good actor can turn a terrible plot into gold simply via charisma. Literature is another story and one where the flaws of the MacGuffin often become more problematic. Literature is almost pure narration, unmasked by anything else.
And as I often say when this comes up; just cause the Greek stuff is classic, doesn't mean following in their footsteps is a good idea. Otherwise every story would involve overtly mysoginist heroes raping women and then leaving them to die
I would argue, btw, that the Crystal Skull is not a MacGuffin, as a MacGuffin is defined as something that is otherwise interchangeable (in other words you can substitute 'microwave bean burrito' in for whatever it is and it will still tell the same story.
The crystal skull is interchangeable. It could have been any number of things. A tablet, a map, a rock, a statue, etc. Fundamentally, interchangeability is not critical to a MacGuffin imo anyway. A MacGuffin takes whatever is the most convenient form for the plot. What that is is kind of irrelevant to the MacGuffin's story role.
Platuan4th wrote: He WAS a good director. The issue is he forgot that being a good director means accepting criticism and advice/input from those around you and not just having a vision.
Peter Jackson was a good director until no one could tell him to cut the damn film anymore.
M. Night was a good director until he lost confidence following the reaction to Unbreakable.
Coppola gave us the Godfather movies and Apocalypse Now, and then later Bram Stoker's Dracula.
The Star Wars team is thrilled to announce the cast of Star Wars: Episode VII.
Actors John Boyega, Daisy Ridley, Adam Driver, Oscar Isaac, Andy Serkis, Domhnall Gleeson, and Max von Sydow will join the original stars of the saga, Harrison Ford, Carrie Fisher, Mark Hamill, Anthony Daniels, Peter Mayhew, and Kenny Baker in the new film.
Director J.J. Abrams says, "We are so excited to finally share the cast of Star Wars: Episode VII. It is both thrilling and surreal to watch the beloved original cast and these brilliant new performers come together to bring this world to life, once again. We start shooting in a couple of weeks, and everyone is doing their best to make the fans proud."
Star Wars: Episode VII is being directed by J.J. Abrams from a screenplay by Lawrence Kasdan and Abrams. Kathleen Kennedy, J.J. Abrams, and Bryan Burk are producing, and John Williams returns as the composer
I would like to see a larger version of the pic so that it is easier to see everyone. I can make out most of the original cast, but the new faces are harder to recognize.
Andy Serkis is the only name in that list I recognise (With the exception of the old guys, of course). Is it just me being out of touch, or have they really just gone an started making a film with complete unknowns?
I mean, do they really expect this to ride on the title and old actors alone?
The Star Wars team is thrilled to announce the cast of Star Wars: Episode VII.
Actors John Boyega, Daisy Ridley, Adam Driver, Oscar Isaac, Andy Serkis, Domhnall Gleeson, and Max von Sydow will join the original stars of the saga, Harrison Ford, Carrie Fisher, Mark Hamill, Anthony Daniels, Peter Mayhew, and Kenny Baker in the new film.
Director J.J. Abrams says, "We are so excited to finally share the cast of Star Wars: Episode VII. It is both thrilling and surreal to watch the beloved original cast and these brilliant new performers come together to bring this world to life, once again. We start shooting in a couple of weeks, and everyone is doing their best to make the fans proud."
Star Wars: Episode VII is being directed by J.J. Abrams from a screenplay by Lawrence Kasdan and Abrams. Kathleen Kennedy, J.J. Abrams, and Bryan Burk are producing, and John Williams returns as the composer
Max Von Sydow. Cool I thought he was dead.
Andy Serkis? I have visions of Gollum as the Emperor.
@LordofHats: I suppose they were, but that was when Star Wars was just an idea. These days, it's one of the most popular/well-known franchises around, with a huge company backing them. I'm not says that unknown actors are poor (a lot of the time they're not).
My point is just that you'd have thought they'd have got some bigger names involved with the huge clout behind the IP.
Paradigm wrote:Andy Serkis is the only name in that list I recognise (With the exception of the old guys, of course). Is it just me being out of touch, or have they really just gone an started making a film with complete unknowns?
About half are up and coming and the other half are new.
LordofHats wrote:Save Harrison Ford, weren't most of the cast of the original films unknowns?
Harrison wasn't even really known at the time. He was "antagonist in car" in American Graffiti. Remember he was doing a lumber project and called over to fill in, as Lucas knew him from the previous film, as they needed a third for the casting test of Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher, and well, everything went from there.
IDK, I think people inflat the value of big names. I mean, when's the last time Tom Cruise was in a great movie? Not a decent movie or a passable movie, but a truely great movie. Johnny Depp? I think big name actors have probably starred in more bombs than unknown actors XD
Big name actors aren't there because they're good they're there because they have big names. You cast them to suck people into seeing the film, not because they have talent (or you know w/e). Star Wars being the title is sufficient to suck people into the film, so at that point why bother with big name actors?
Yeah, there are only 1 or 2 of them that are out of nowhere which is reasonable. The two that are probably the Solo male kids have both got solid portfolios. Though the girl likely playing the Solo daughter is a complete unknown.
Meh, I'm happy with what are likely to be the main male kids so it's a step in the right direction. I mean, it's not the crew of the new Star Trek (which is pretty damn stellar cast wise) but it's got a shot.
And really most of the good actors in the right age band are busy already doing super hero movies or Star Trek
I also imagine having much of the orignal cast plus Max Von Sydow takes care of their big name quota and they can just focus on fresh faces instead of trying to find another 'name'. Plus it is Star Wars, it isn't like people are going to skip it because it doesn't have any superstars in it either way; the franchise is the big name.
Paradigm wrote: Andy Serkis is the only name in that list I recognise (With the exception of the old guys, of course). Is it just me being out of touch, or have they really just gone an started making a film with complete unknowns?
I mean, do they really expect this to ride on the title and old actors alone?
MAX VON SYDOW! He's got to be a Sith Lord or something.
That's a fair point. As I say, I'm just surprised, as most blockbuster films these days have at least someone easily recognised putting their name to it.
I'm not expecting ep VII to be a 'truly great film', but it will certainly be a blockbuster affair.
Anyone saying Mark Hamil isn't good has clearly not paid attention to his prolific voice acting career The reason you never saw Mark Hamil again is cause he got fethed up;
On January 11, 1977, one day before he was set to shoot one of the needed scenes in Star Wars, Hamill was in a car accident in which he fractured his nose and left cheekbone, requiring seven hours of surgery. As a result, a double was used for the landspeeder pickup shots. ~ Wikipedia
Paradigm wrote: Andy Serkis is the only name in that list I recognise (With the exception of the old guys, of course). Is it just me being out of touch, or have they really just gone an started making a film with complete unknowns?
I mean, do they really expect this to ride on the title and old actors alone?
MAX VON SYDOW! He's got to be a Sith Lord or something.
I just looked him up after my dad told be he was quite famous, and then struggled for 5 minutes to actually name something he was in. The only thing on his list of credits I've seen is Skyrim.
Paradigm wrote: Andy Serkis is the only name in that list I recognise (With the exception of the old guys, of course). Is it just me being out of touch, or have they really just gone an started making a film with complete unknowns?
I mean, do they really expect this to ride on the title and old actors alone?
MAX VON SYDOW! He's got to be a Sith Lord or something.
I just looked him up after my dad told be he was quite famous, and then struggled for 5 minutes to actually name something he was in. The only thing on his list of credits I've seen is Skyrim.
One supposes that at least part of the reason they want to sign up less well known actors/actresses for the parts is the number of films they'll want them to do.
reds8n wrote: One supposes that at least part of the reason they want to sign up less well known actors/actresses for the parts is the number of films they'll want them to do.
My point is just that you'd have thought they'd have got some bigger names involved with the huge clout behind the IP.
See my previous point about the Screen Actors/Directors Guild, there is (likely) a reason for why they aren't going with bigger names (hint: they're not using unionized actors).
Yeah, there are only 1 or 2 of them that are out of nowhere which is reasonable. The two that are probably the Solo male kids have both got solid portfolios. Though the girl likely playing the Solo daughter is a complete unknown.
Who says there is a Solo daughter? Who says there are Solo kids (plural)? Who says there are even Solo kids at all??
Personally, I'm glad to see some more non-caucasian actors getting some screentime in the series.
reds8n wrote: One supposes that at least part of the reason they want to sign up less well known actors/actresses for the parts is the number of films they'll want them to do.
Like the Harry Potter movie kids!
Partially.
But, IIRC, Downey Jr. is reckoned to have pocketed $50M from The Avengers, but his co stars earned considerably less. And his earnings were linked to the films takings.
Less well known actors won't be able to negotiate such rich rewards --- with regards to the older cast members.. well...... Ford I'm sure never has to do anything ever again and i reckon Fisher and Hamill are comfortable enough anyway, but I doubt they're getting a mega deal ... Ford aside perhaps not exactly had a lot of acting work really have they ?
Thought there might be some more women in it, but early days yet one supposes.
They're either Solo kids or Skywalker kids. Either way they are someone from the original trilogies kids. And let's not forget that Star Wars has always been about the Skywalker family. I don't seem them changing that part of it.
Just because the EU isn't going to be followed doesn't mean they won't use some of the basic story arcs or ideas. Characters may still exist, but the specific details could change completely.
Abso Bar Binks only appears in the story Tantive IV, published in Star Wars Manga: Black issue of Tokyopop's Star Wars Manga. Originally published in Japan, those stories were considered to be of "fuzzy" continuity by Lucasfilm.[1] Since then, they have been republished in English in the United Kingdom under Infinities label, which established the material in them as non-canonical.
Thankfully of course we can ignore this and start up a campaign insisting that this character is in the new films.
Max Von Sydow picks the strangest roles, but I'm so happy we have a couple actors with some clout in this. Hamil's voice work is good, but lets face it, you get Harrison Ford to play Harrison Ford, he's the same character every time he's on screen. Not that thats bad, he just lacks variety, and Carrie Fisher hasn't really done anything after Star Wars of note.
Not too concerned about unknowns, look at LOTR, new Star Trek, Avengers (sort of) and Star Wars, people rise to the occasion.
EmilCrane wrote: Max Von Sydow picks the strangest roles, but I'm so happy we have a couple actors with some clout in this. Hamil's voice work is good, but lets face it, you get Harrison Ford to play Harrison Ford, he's the same character every time he's on screen. Not that thats bad, he just lacks variety, and Carrie Fisher hasn't really done anything after Star Wars of note.
To be fair, she spent a lot of time during and after Star Wars in a drug induced stupor.
So with that red hair, Domhnall Gleeson has a good chance of being Ben Skywalker (or some kind of Ben remix), right? I'm sure the fan sites have this stuff more or less figured out, but I don't frequent those hives of scum and villainy.
Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if JJ Abrams changed all the former EU archetype characters names and 'personalities' ever so slightly to try to reinforce the fact that its all dead and everything is new. Almost like a little attempt to say 'see we're starting over from scratch, this is all brand new, I'm so original and creative, didn't borrow this from established sources AT ALL.'
Ahtman wrote: While it is possible they may use some elements of the EU I wouldn't make any prognostications based on anything in them, like specific characters.
Eh, it's random message board speculation...I'm not wagering souls here. At least not mine.
@chaos: I don't get the impression that Abrams and Kasdan will refuse to use any aspect from the EU out of pride or spite, even if it feels that way to you. Abrams is an admitted SW fanboy. EU elements that work for the story they want to tell are probably have a chance to make the cut. Given that Star Trek was a reboot, he was actually fairly respectful to the old ST material with the exception of one unfortunate scene in the second movie. He even found a way to reboot the franchise while keeping the old stuff canon. I realize it might be all or nothing with you, but I think you should give the guy a chance.
Ahtman wrote: While it is possible they may use some elements of the EU I wouldn't make any prognostications based on anything in them, like specific characters.
Eh, it's random message board speculation...I'm not wagering souls here. At least not mine.
@chaos: I don't get the impression that Abrams and Kasdan will refuse to use any aspect from the EU out of pride or spite, even if it feels that way to you. Abrams is an admitted SW fanboy. EU elements that work for the story they want to tell are probably have a chance to make the cut. Given that Star Trek was a reboot, he was actually fairly respectful to the old ST material with the exception of one unfortunate scene in the second movie. He even found a way to reboot the franchise while keeping the old stuff canon. I realize it might be all or nothing with you, but I think you should give the guy a chance.
I think you and I have different viewpoints on his Star Trek films then. They were great action films, I appreciate that he kept the original canon intact with his time paradox nonsense (which is something that I actually absolutely hate in general, same reason I dont watch Dr. Who) but they were terrible, terrible Star Trek films, and I find the second film to actually be an insult to The Wrath of Khan.
Frazzled wrote: There was nothing in second movie he was respectful about, including a coherent plot.
The second star trek film from JJ Abrahamlincolns happens when Kirk and Spock are young pups. In the original TV series, they first meet Khan when they're young pups. While the timeline was fethed up by the first Star Trek, the meeting of Khan and Kirk in the second movie parallels Kirk and Khan's first meeting. The first met in the Original TV Series. Space Seed (Season 1 Episode 22).
Space Seed is the first meeting between Khan and the Enterprise, Wrath of Khan is the about the second meeting years later. Into Darkness was about the first meeting of Khan and the Enterprise. In Space Seed Khan tries to take over the Enterprise and kill most of the crew, in the second he is just out for revenge. As you can see here the stunt doubles also fought for the first time:
kronk wrote: Dang she's cute. I'll over look the mom-shorts!
It was the '80s. Those were hot back then.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
chaos0xomega wrote: ..., and I find the second film to actually be an insult to The Wrath of Khan..
Strokes and folks, I guess. I enjoyed the second movie, and found the parralels to the Wrath of Khan amusing. Laughed like hell at the whole 'if you were here, you would have done the same' bit.
No..Prometheus got on my nerves while I was watching it
I'm also a fan of Into Darkness. But I also think that outside of Nemoy and Sulu the entire new cast is head and shoulders above the old cast. And even new Spock and new Sulu are on par with their predecessors.
Looking forward to seeing what he does with Star Wars. Especially since he's a fan.
I find it one of those movies I enjoy when I watch it, but if I think about it afterward it gets on my nerves. On Bluray 3D it looks amazing.
Prometheus syndrome.
It's Avatar Syndrome, because that has to be the poster child for that. The whole time I was watching it in IMAX 3d I was all "Whoa this is amazing!" I'd bet 99+% of people get so caught up in the visuals and everything that it is basically impossible to criticize whilst in the theater.
Then I got home and was talking about it with my buddy and we realized just how pandering, manipulative and two dimensional it was. Still looks amazing, though.
I have never seen an episode of Star Trek. I have never watched any of the movies, barring the Abrams ones. So I have no real frame of reference as to their faithfulness to anything.
I found the Abrams movies to be a little like a stripper: fun to watch, but vapid to the core. I also frequently found myself wondering how these kids from a CW show found themselves in charge of a military (?) ship.
Seaward wrote: I also frequently found myself wondering how these kids from a CW show found themselves in charge of a military (?) ship.
Starfleet isn't a military force, it's an exploratory science force. And the Enterprise is a science vessel with guns, not a warship.
Having said that, the cadets winding up in charge of the Federation's new flagship was a little contrived. Still fun, though... I didn't go into a Star Trek film expecting anything too deep.
I find it one of those movies I enjoy when I watch it, but if I think about it afterward it gets on my nerves. On Bluray 3D it looks amazing.
Prometheus syndrome.
It's Avatar Syndrome, because that has to be the poster child for that. The whole time I was watching it in IMAX 3d I was all "Whoa this is amazing!" I'd bet 99+% of people get so caught up in the visuals and everything that it is basically impossible to criticize whilst in the theater.
Then I got home and was talking about it with my buddy and we realized just how pandering, manipulative and two dimensional it was. Still looks amazing, though.
I fell asleep during Avatar. It bored me to tears.
Original ST was an exploration vessel. However its forgotten the Enterprise was classed as a battle cruiser (at least by the klingons ). Everything about the movie Enterprise and other Fed ships screams heavy cruiser.
Space Seed is the first meeting between Khan and the Enterprise, Wrath of Khan is the about the second meeting years later. Into Darkness was about the first meeting of Khan and the Enterprise. In Space Seed Khan tries to take over the Enterprise and kill most of the crew, in the second he is just out for revenge. As you can see here the stunt doubles also fought for the first time:
AH! Okay, now I know what you mean, I thought Space Seed was a separate show entirely lol. Okay that makes sense, I forgot this episode even existed...
chaos0xomega wrote: I think you and I have different viewpoints on his Star Trek films then. They were great action films, I appreciate that he kept the original canon intact with his time paradox nonsense (which is something that I actually absolutely hate in general, same reason I dont watch Dr. Who) but they were terrible, terrible Star Trek films, and I find the second film to actually be an insult to The Wrath of Khan.
Here are my thoughts.
- I'm primarily an original series fan (DS9 had its moments). So I don't mind a more action-focused shoot-em-up. Certainly every OS episode wasn't that, but you saw the western influences everywhere in that series. In a lot of ways I think Abrams recaptured some of those roots. I don't want a ST OS reboot to have a TNG feel, if that makes sense.
- I don't think Into Darkness was a great movie by any stretch. But how many good ST films have there been? I figure II, III, IV, and First Contact are the leaders. IMO, Abrams' first effort is right in that mix. And is ID worse than I, V, VI, Generations, Insurrection or Nemesis? I know you're arguing something different -- that it wasn't a good TREK film -- but I wanted to share that thought anyway.
- I think the reactor scene showed a lack of respect for the older material. It was a dumb stunt. Otherwise, I think he kept a lot of elements intact even in the context of a significant reboot. Sure, he blew up Vulcan, but I put that more in the category of a story change than an awkward "wink, wink" stunt like the reactor. Abrams' penance should be to watch Tim Burton's Planet of the Apes film for 24 straight hours. After that, I'm willing to give him absolution.
- SW fanboy that he is, I think he'll easily avoid any reactor-scene equivalents or majorly sour notes. Besides, Kasdan's on board and Lucas isn't. Personally, I think SW is in excellent hands. You're obviously allowed to feel differently, but I still think you should be optimistic.
I can see Luke being the only one that would need it, seeing as he'll probably be serving as a Yoda equivalent.
IIRC, the rumor was that in the original draft, Luke, Leia and Han were minor characters. In this new draft, they're more prominent, because Abrams wants to give those characters a proper curtain call before the focus shifts to the younger cast members in future installments.
Personally, I like the notion. We'll see about the execution.
IIRC, the rumor was that in the original draft, Luke, Leia and Han were minor characters. In this new draft, they're more prominent, because Abrams wants to give those characters a proper curtain call before the focus shifts to the younger cast members in future installments.
That works for me in a big way. As long as no one s with the fastest hunk of junk in the galaxy!
In a lot of ways I think Abrams recaptured some of those roots. I don't want a ST OS reboot to have a TNG feel, if that makes sense.
Something people are too busy mocking lens flare and contrived special effects sequences to really give the man due credit for.
I Like Captain Picard the best of the captains, but the movies were constantly throwing Patrick Stewart into the role of an action hero, and that just doesn't fly when you look as brittle as Patrick Stewart. Sisko doesn't do fist fights. He just stares you down till you surrender or he fires a full spread of torpedos because you're wasting his time. We don't talk about Janeway.
Abrams put the adventure back in Star Trek. People could at least give him some credit for that.
IIRC, the rumor was that in the original draft, Luke, Leia and Han were minor characters. In this new draft, they're more prominent, because Abrams wants to give those characters a proper curtain call before the focus shifts to the younger cast members in future installments.
That works for me in a big way. As long as no one s with the fastest hunk of junk in the galaxy!
Grey Templar wrote: I want Han Solo to go all grumpy old man on someone trying to steal the Falcon
Nah, they're gonna have a touchy-feely scene where he reluctantly gives it to his son to carry on his legacy and then they hug for the first time since he was a child. Leia looks on tearfully.
My observation on the Abrams Star Trek films is that the first one was reasonable if you can get around a couple of glaring plot holes (mostly to do with the sheer improbability of certain events as portrayed in the film and the absurdity of some of the technological changes the plot hinges on), and Into Darkness was (for the most part) a compilation of thirty-second clips of all ten pre-Abrams films with updated CGI arranged in a somewhat nonsensical manner with a meandering plot. My largest objection to Abrams' work is he seems completely and totally averse to actually creating new content in favour of taking older scripts, swapping a name or two, using shinier visuals, and calling it a "reboot"; I've got some confidence that if he actually goes and moves the story forward the new movies aren't going to be bad but if he takes the "let's do the original movies with new actors and destroy half the drama by offering quick and easy solutions to seriously challenging problems!" approach again I'm going to be fairly disappointed.
You forgot the fact that Star Trek NEVER should have been made into an action movie. Its space opera, and every fight has the elegance of a barroom brawl.
Seaward wrote: I also frequently found myself wondering how these kids from a CW show found themselves in charge of a military (?) ship.
Starfleet isn't a military force, it's an exploratory science force. And the Enterprise is a science vessel with guns, not a warship.
Having said that, the cadets winding up in charge of the Federation's new flagship was a little contrived. Still fun, though... I didn't go into a Star Trek film expecting anything too deep.
Starfleet is a military force though. Their primary role is exploration and science, but they do double duty as Earth's primary space-based military/defense force. I would class them as a multi-role force with a focus on exploration and science, but isn't really true to say they're not a military force. If they're not a military force, then Earth has no military force, which certainly is not true.
Automatically Appended Next Post: P.S. - Sisko is the best captain.
Hordini wrote: If they're not a military force, then Earth has no military force, which certainly is not true.
Earth has no military force. Roddenberry meant for that specifically to be true. He wrote the Federation to be a utopian society : post-scarcity with no need for a military. In the original, the fleet purely exists in an exploratory, scientific function.
More accurately it should be said(thanks to DS9 and later series), Earth/the Federation has no permanent military force. In events such as the Dominion War, the fleet is recalled to act as a military.
Grey Templar wrote: I want Han Solo to go all grumpy old man on someone trying to steal the Falcon
Nah, they're gonna have a touchy-feely scene where he reluctantly gives it to his son to carry on his legacy and then they hug for the first time since he was a child. Leia looks on tearfully.
The prequel movies really could have used a wisecracking rogue character (among other things) to provide some balance to all the holy Jedi spouting stilted dialogue. Here's hoping Abrams gets that right. One of the new actors -- Oscar Isaac -- has that look about him, so we can cross our fingers that we get some classic Han in this one, plus a new guy to fill that role.
*Best negotiator: Picard.
*Best ship to ship and close combat specialist: Kirk
*Best Commander to stand toe to toe against evil space nazis (as long as you keep him focused and not wandering off on some god complex thing) - Sisko.
*Captain most likely to pull the ship over and ask for directions: Janeway.
*Voted best captain by Team Wienie? Porthos. Team Wienie really liked Porthos and his second in command Captain Archer.
*Best Captain to go barhopping with-Worf. You will be almost guaranteed to have at least one duel to the death, and a head butting contest. Just watch out when he starts talking about prune juice.
).
Put me in Star Wars and baby, you've got a stew going! 
