70056
Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/duststudio/dust-operation-babylon
And we're live...
It looks to be funding a new "phase" of the Dust game's narrative, essentially the entire African front of the war.
Rumor also suggests add-ons will include all the new Version 2.0 books and unit cards.
Personally i'm really excited for this. Dust has been, in its various forms, one of my absolute favorite board and miniatures games, of all time. The models are amazing and are priced hyper aggressively, with beautiful vehicles, etc... Aesthetically they've been a joy to paint, and i'm hoping this serves as a coming out party for the game as well. It lacks for a playerbase, but not because it doesn't deserve one.
Edit: Incidentally, via there forums and Paolo Parente's FB page it was confirmed that all molds are done, and it looks like they'll be fulfilling this Kickstarter with a fast 3-4 month turn-around. They've likewise said, Kickstarter allows them to roll out a huge release all at once, but these units/models are real and are coming one way or another, just slowly/staggered without crowd-funding.
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Post by: Gamingdog
I think 8 GMT translates to 3 pm EST. oh well I'll be at work. save me an early bird 
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Post by: Uriels_Flame
Links are always good, and I have to question this game already due to your "Dust game's narrative".
Anything coming out anymore touting a "forging the narrative" theme has me on edge...
1037
Post by: Gamingdog
Uriels_Flame, I believe Paolo has an alternative history outlined past 2020 or something like that. currently in the story line we are still around 1947 so there is going to be lots of "Dust game narrative" coming
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Post by: Uriels_Flame
Gotcha.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
Well, and there are comics, etc... The gameplay doesn't profess to "forge a narrative", but their is a macro fiction, as Gamingdog has said.
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Post by: Zond
I'm going to jump on this, do my research on gameplay and models and sales practices and decide an the end.
72319
Post by: highlord tamburlaine
I'd be willing to jump in if the price is right.
Been interested in giving Dust a spin since the original box came out some years past, but just never wanted to commit a ton of money to another game system.
If the deal is too good to pass up, I guess then now will be the time.
Unfortunately my brain is trained to expect a good deal when it comes to an established company jumping on the Kickstarter wagon.
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Post by: Uriels_Flame
Can't get to kickstarter from work - anyone supply a link to it yet?
1478
Post by: warboss
So the molds are done and the stuff is coming out regardless... making this kickstarter 100% just a preorder. It's not against the letter of the rules but feels against the spirit. Eh, it's only the next step in the continuum established by other companies. I'm curious about the prices and whether they'll have any early bird offerings and what discount this will be compared with retail.
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Post by: Necros
I got into Dust a while back, it seemed fun and the models were great, but personally it just wasn't for me. No one ever wanted to play it and everything was just collecting dust (pun?) so I eventually just sold it all. I dunno if I'd be into a KS unless it's some amazing deal, I already have tons of models from other campaigns that need paint and will probably never get any.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
Well, from what they're saying, they're using Kickstarter to leap-frog the normal release schedule. They're saying the KS contents would be about 2 years worth of releases, slowly dripping out, without Kickstarter, versus backers being able to see all the new campaign setting minis in one lump release, and only a few months away.
Essentially, i'm of the mind that, i'm GOING to buy this all either way, so the Kickstarter just has to offer me a "deal" that meets or rather, beats my usual Miniature's Market, price.
As I said in the Dust thread, the "new" starters, if pieced out and bought at online prices, should be roughly $92 each... maybe $100 if it comes with tokens, some basic rule books, etc... Anything more, and its a non-deal.
Regarding the KS link... i'll put it up, as I said, the minute they post it . :-)
123
Post by: Alpharius
Thanks for starting this thread - and promising to keep it updated!
It is much appreciated!
I've been interested in DUST for a long time now - this may get me off the fence.
To be honest, I'm more interested in 'Warfare' then "Tactics" so, we'll see.
I find it hard to resist Weird War II stuff though!
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Post by: Uriels_Flame
Sorry - I misunderstood what you were saying then.
I thought it was set-up already!
Very interesting idea - basically giving those interested a presale event.
I like it! 
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
There aren't any supernatural shenanigans popping up in this, are there?
When I hear Babylon mentioned with alternate history stuff, I instantly start thinking ancient advanced civilizations, spooky supernatural prophecies, magical artifacts... junk like that.
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Post by: Uriels_Flame
I think of Hellboy.
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Post by: Alpharius
I think I'd love that to all be in this game! 
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
Pulp Sci-Fi, yes, (Trained mutant gorillas, and zombies, are common-place), super-natural stuff, no.
So, a quick update...
Paolo Parente, via Facebook, just confirmed that pre-paints of all options in the Kickstarter will be an option, as will be the conventional, pre-assembled, but unpainted version.
Should be about a half-hour now?
Edit: Incidentally, before this all goes mad, or dud (depending on KS offerings), I just wanted to be open and say that I know I have a weird bias for this game. I've published some Weird War 2 fiction, and a screen-play, and this game has always scratched a really specific itch for me.
As I know I am biased, I will do my absolute best to not let my opinion cloud things (as much as possible), and will try to just drop in facts, updates, etc... as I find them. I don't want my love for a thing effecting anyone else's common sense, buying habits, etc...
Also, as a guy with a disability, my hours at the PC are occasionally limited, so anyone seeing an update i've failed to post here... I'd graciously appreciate any help. Post away! :-p
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Post by: Catyrpelius
The models paint up fantastically!
Later tonight I'll post up some pictures of a bunch of Axis models Red Modeling painted for me.
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Post by: Piston Honda
 Alpharius wrote:Thanks for starting this thread - and promising to keep it updated!
It is much appreciated!
I've been interested in DUST for a long time now - this may get me off the fence.
To be honest, I'm more interested in 'Warfare' then "Tactics" so, we'll see.
I find it hard to resist Weird War II stuff though!
Tactics sucks. It's boring and repetitive. Movement is very static.
Warfare was fun but sounds like they are rewriting it? Not sure what is going on there.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
Well, Tactics was a board-game... so um... some static movement isn't exactly a shocker.
Warfare is still being supported, but minimally.
The new "Dust" is Dust Battlefield, which is essentially the hybrid, but this time done with Paolo Parente's blessing. It is gridless Dust Tactics, with a few advanced rules, and templates so... more what we all think of as a proper minis game.
Happily, they've killed off my most despised mechanic from Warfare, an overly restrictive FOC. Now you can use anything from your collection, in faction, and you just get various buffs for keeping certain units in FOC format (now called "Platoons")
Edit: Oh, and i'm a crappy painter, but thought i'd share, because these were a REALLY fun diversion from painting up 2000pts of 'Nids in the last three months. :-p
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Post by: Piston Honda
Axis and allies miniatures is play in a similar fashion (hex grid rather than a square) and movement was no where near as dull.
They could have done a better job with the game rules for tactics.
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Post by: Alpharius
I thought that was supposed to have launched already?
Hurry up and get this thing live - someone!
11558
Post by: Uriels_Flame
4 minutes?
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
http://www.dust-tactics.com/tabid/89/g/posts/t/841/Kickstarter.aspx?p=2
Post #38 is from a vet-poster who has been spot on confirming supplemental news/rumors.
Just sharing this in case this thing doesn't launch in 3 minutes. :-p I don't wanna be Natfka'd :-p
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Post by: UltraPrime
 Piston Honda wrote:Axis and allies miniatures is play in a similar fashion (hex grid rather than a square) and movement was no where near as dull.
They could have done a better job with the game rules for tactics.
Looking forward to the Kickstarter. I assume you are too, otherwise you wouldn't be posting here. Can we keep the merits, or lack thereof, of the rules to a different thread thanks.
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Post by: Uriels_Flame
Looking forward to the Kickstarter. I assume you are too, otherwise you wouldn't be posting here. Can we keep the merits, or lack thereof, of the rules to a different thread thanks.
Agreed.
let's get this started!
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Post by: Piston Honda
UltraPrime wrote: Piston Honda wrote:Axis and allies miniatures is play in a similar fashion (hex grid rather than a square) and movement was no where near as dull.
They could have done a better job with the game rules for tactics.
Looking forward to the Kickstarter. I assume you are too, otherwise you wouldn't be posting here. Can we keep the merits, or lack thereof, of the rules to a different thread thanks.
It is rumored that there will be a new rule book in this kickstarter. That is what caught my interest the most.
Discussing such in comparison would not be a distraction in this thread as is the case with other kickstarter threads.
I'll let you decide if I am interested in this kickstarter as it seems you have already formed an opinion.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyone aware if there is a stretch goal plan for sitting crew for the german transport like flames of war has for the sdk fz 251?
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Post by: edlowe
So any news on when this launches?
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Post by: Alpharius
In about 5 minutes, we think...?
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Post by: jamesk1973
Waiting...
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
Well between people involved on FB, and official forum posters, they were saying 8:00pm GMT. I'm pretty sure that has come and gone. :-p
Don't shoot the messenger!
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Post by: edlowe
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:Well between people involved on FB, and official forum posters, they were saying 8:00pm GMT. I'm pretty sure that has come and gone. :-p
Don't shoot the messenger!
Yep 9.05pm over here
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Post by: Alpharius
WHAT?!?
THEY LIED TO US!!!
Well, I'm sure it will launch...eventually!
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Post by: Todosi
Looks like they are just having technical issues:
From Facebook:
"Hi, everyone. There is going to be a small delay on switching on the Kickstarter, while a couple of important final details are worked out. We’ll update you very soon (almost certainly within an hour) about the new start time.
Very sorry about this - we obviously don’t want to delay, but it’s better than having to take the KS project down again if something vital is messed up. Please bear with us."
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Post by: Catyrpelius
 Todosi wrote:Looks like they are just having technical issues:
From Facebook:
"Hi, everyone. There is going to be a small delay on switching on the Kickstarter, while a couple of important final details are worked out. We’ll update you very soon (almost certainly within an hour) about the new start time.
Very sorry about this - we obviously don’t want to delay, but it’s better than having to take the KS project down again if something vital is messed up. Please bear with us."
They had one job...
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Post by: Uriels_Flame
I like those bull nosed flyers. Nice mix of tech there.
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Post by: Alpharius
Now I just need some DUST vets to tell me if there's a good deal to be had here...
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Post by: Nostromodamus
Having never played it before, do I get everything I need to play?
Does the "campaign book" have the game rules in there?
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Post by: Brian2112
Alpharius wrote:Now I just need some DUST vets to tell me if there's a good deal to be had here...
Nope.
Looking at the picture of the Allied army 'deal' and using the current models pricing, it looks like you are paying full retail.
From an online game store:
Heavy Assault Walker (base model for Devastator) $39.95
Medium Assault Walker (base model for Mickey and Barking Dog) $24.95
Troop Boxes $20.00
Comes out to $149.85.
Miniatures Market, War Store, etc. will have these models discounted. Even my FLGS sells Dust for 20% off.
Unless I'm missing something, the $150 army sets are only getting you the models early. There are no savings.
EDIT:
I forgot to mention that you have to add shipping onto the $150 price tag for the bundle. So full retail plus shipping. Even GW gives you free shipping on orders over $65.
The thing that really turns me off on this is the $10 add on figures. Add on? Really? For full retail you won't throw in a bonus KS figure? No thanks on this whole thing.
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Post by: Nostromodamus
WTF?
Not even a discount for giving them an interest free loan?
Never mind, not gonna back this then.
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Post by: Zond
You had me at Walkers, you lost me at full retail.
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Post by: Nostromodamus
I guess there's always the stretch goals to increase value.
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
Yeah, not seeing the value, especially as I just got a Miniature Market email about another big sale to tempt me out of more money.
Better be some nice stretches once this funds.
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Post by: Gomezaddams
Yup, very silly. I was really looking forward to this one but... far too much for my money.
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Post by: UltraPrime
Pledged for Allied army.
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Post by: edlowe
Had a look due to the cool figs but seems expensive for a ks, very much a preorder with no benefits so far.
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Post by: Alpharius
2112 wrote: Alpharius wrote:Now I just need some DUST vets to tell me if there's a good deal to be had here...
Nope.
Looking at the picture of the Allied army 'deal' and using the current models pricing, it looks like you are paying full retail.
From an online game store:
Heavy Assault Walker (base model for Devastator) $39.95
Medium Assault Walker (base model for Mickey and Barking Dog) $24.95
Troop Boxes $20.00
Comes out to $149.85.
Miniatures Market, War Store, etc. will have these models discounted. Even my FLGS sells Dust for 20% off.
Unless I'm missing something, the $150 army sets are only getting you the models early. There are no savings.
Thank you for that analysis - and...I'm out!
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
Wow. Didn't see that coming. I did not expect full retail, and can only hope stretch-goals add significant value. If not... well, i'm still buying all of it, just at online shop prices. :-p
I do want to thank you guys for posting the links though while I had the audacity to go eat dinner. :-)
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Post by: Nostromodamus
Still not clear if the full game rules are included in this. Certainly doesn't tell you anywhere on their KS page.
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Post by: BrookM
Also, post-campaign shipping calculator, not a fan of those.
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Post by: Alpharius
Without the rules, the 'value' gets even worse.
This is a shockingly horrible Kickstarter in terms of 'deals' or 'value' - wow!
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Post by: RiTides
Oh man, those egg walkers are cool. But you can't pledge only for them, you have to get the full army deal... so not tempted. But seriously, they rock!
I guess I should call them "Steel Wall - Steel Guard Rifle Support Squad", but they really do look like the "egg" hardsuits everyone loved from Defiance Games (but which will never be released). Quite impressive.
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Post by: Moopy
"Shocking, horrible"? Uhhhh... no. That's over reacting.
Is it the best tactic? I don't think so, unless the prices are going up.
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Post by: His Master's Voice
No new models except three characters? Yeah, feth that. Let me know when you have some new robots.
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Post by: RiTides
I thought the models were new...?
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Post by: Nostromodamus
No shipping costs listed, and estimate says "20% of the cost of the models", which seems a bit ridiculous....
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Post by: ironicsilence
so is the appeal here just purely to get it before everyone else? Is this Kickstarter just a preorder vehicle?
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
For what it is worth...
If the Kickstarter proves unappealing, don't dismiss the game. A REAL starter army, of your own choosing, can be had at Miniature's Market for half the current asking price on KS. The majority of the models in these new bundles... oddly enough... are also currently available under different names, with only slightly different load-outs.
The game is terrific and well deserves to be played... this KS... eh... i'll refrain from judging. I'll just say that I am an almost insanely enthusiastic fan of this game, and i'm not so sure i'll be involved as of yet.
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Post by: His Master's Voice
Dunno, maybe the infantry is new. Can't really tell, they all look the same without armour. The machines are slight variations on existing chassis designs. Booooring.
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Post by: Moopy
I think the KS will start to shine when the bonuses start to add up from the stretch goals.
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Post by: jamesk1973
Wow a jump from $20 to $150 right off the bat at full retail and no rules for people just starting.
I am guessing this KS is for the passionate DUST aficionado as opposed to the newbie.
I love the miniatures and the background but not looking to start a new game at full retail.
I have GW for that kind of self-abuse.
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Post by: Floris
A few people here have asked if the KS includes the Dust Tactics core rules.
It does not.
No reason to panic as the new Dust Tactics rulebook can be downloaded for free from the Battlefront website.
http://www.dust-tactics.com/Home/tabid/56/entryid/148/Default.aspx
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Post by: jamesk1973
A company that publishes its rules for free....just gives them away....so people might try their game....and perhaps begin playing thereby purchasing their line of models.....heresy!
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Post by: wildger
The only thing worthwhile of purchase is the premium edition. It is still not as good as the original fully painted set which you got 6 squads, 4 walkers, and 2 heroes with tiles and dice for the same price of $300. That may change if the pledge level is high enough to unlock a few bonus. At the time of writing, all Axis sets are gone. I am doubtful that anyone will give it up. If you are new, I suggest the SSU due to the type 4 soldiers.
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Post by: ironicsilence
they need to do something pretty impressive with stretch goals to get me interested. This Kickstarter looks more like a preorder which annoys me
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Post by: Brian2112
Updates:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/duststudio/dust-operation-babylon/posts
The stretch goals are add-ons for $22 each (plus shipping). One of the KS Creator's comments in the comment section says "We have lots of fun options to add later as Paolo has truly surpassed himself on the creative front so fear not as the add-ons come every 10k for a bit as we wanted to get them out for viewing a.s.a.p."
To me that sounds like "no free stuff, just a $22 unit for every $10K".
EDIT:
This was posted a few mintues ago:
"We have no control over the Warfare rules at all as they belong to FFG so they will remain unchanged for the foreseeable future. We are simply making sure that all model units have cards in them for Tactics and Warfare."
This is news to me, but I'm out of the loop and this may be old news to some.
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Post by: Bolognesus
Update 2 confirms freebies on the way.
They'll need a lot of them to make this worth it, though.
83501
Post by: Nostromodamus
LOL, first stretch goals are paid add-ons...
Amateur hour on KS...
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Post by: Alpharius
It all seems horrible.
And shocking.
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Post by: ironicsilence
i think the problem is people are looking at this from a usual mini kickstarter, great value and cool freebies, this is more and more looking like a flat out preorder
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
Well, i'm not concerned as of yet, as freebies are incoming... That said, every time I see a $22 unit, i'm reminded of the fact that I literally today picked up a Dust Command Squad for $12 :-p
I am, however, thrilled in general though, as it looks like there will be plenty of Dust releases for me to pick up over the next couple years, one way or another.
Also, happy accident... but i'd always been painting my Allied minis in African Front colors, so I feel both fancy, and ahead of the curve. :-p
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Post by: -iPaint-
Seems like people are making this out to be a failure from the start, even though it's only been live for a few hours...
Talk about a lack of faith or confidence. If these were the last few hours of the project and nothing had changed, then I might be up in arms with everyone else. As it stands, the project is funded, and it's stretch goals from here on out.
Are people that quick to write this off as a loss already? They weren't asking for half a million, they aren't promising the world in terms of delivery, so I don't understand where the negative feedback is coming from.
Are projects with deep discounts and loads of minis the only thing allowed on Kickstarter now?
~iPaint
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Post by: Alpharius
All kidding aside, there really seems to be little reason to pledge for this one.
It really is a pre-order, and I can certainly wait for these to hit discounted retail.
I suppose the 'freebies' might become so great that this one will become irresistible - but I doubt it.
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Post by: scarletsquig
I gave this a look over... is it really $150 for 14 minis and 3 vehicles?
Are the prepaints totally amazing and exactly what you see in the pictures or something because I'm really not seeing any value here.
Edit: They're just undercoated? Seriously? Not even half-decent prepaints like AT-43?
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
No no...
ALL the models are pre-assembled/based/under-coated.
The pre-paints are fully painted to a surprisingly good quality. I prefer to paint my own which is why I don't buy them, but some folks swear by 'em and won't buy anything else.
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Post by: Spartan Baby Inspector
 scarletsquig wrote:I gave this a look over... is it really $150 for 14 minis and 3 vehicles?
Are the prepaints totally amazing and exactly what you see in the pictures or something because I'm really not seeing any value here.
Edit: They're just undercoated? Seriously? Not even half-decent prepaints like AT-43?
Yes, each army is undercoated in a particular color. Grey for Axis, green for Allies, and kind of a khaki for SSU. That said, the undercoats are very nicely done, and are easy to paint over with no need for priming. The little doodz are a soft bendy plastic while the vehicles are hard plastic, but all have great detail.
Tactics is a fun board game, my 9- and 11-year old kids like the simplicity and the carnage. The minis are really nicely done for Weird WWII, so may have other uses outside of Dust if you are so inclined.
But not for the prices in the KS.
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Post by: Uriels_Flame
This just seems like so much fail.
With 40k going through an upheaval - this was the perfect time to throw something out there and make a great statement.
Instead, it seems we have found a company that takes its' cues from GW....
Disappointed.
77209
Post by: Gallahad
 -iPaint- wrote:Seems like people are making this out to be a failure from the start, even though it's only been live for a few hours...
Talk about a lack of faith or confidence. If these were the last few hours of the project and nothing had changed, then I might be up in arms with everyone else. As it stands, the project is funded, and it's stretch goals from here on out.
Are people that quick to write this off as a loss already? They weren't asking for half a million, they aren't promising the world in terms of delivery, so I don't understand where the negative feedback is coming from.
Are projects with deep discounts and loads of minis the only thing allowed on Kickstarter now?
~iPaint
In response to your last question yes. Battlefront/Dust Studios are asking me to pay upfront for things I won't get for a couple of months. Basically they are asking for a loan, and not offering to pay you any interest on it. In fact, the interest rate on the loan is currently negative (you are paying them to take your money now rather than later) as I can get the same models at retail for a lot less.
This makes Dust Studios look either utterly naive and incompetent, or like they are deliberately trying to screw over fans.
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Post by: Uriels_Flame
Can't even argue this one.
83501
Post by: Nostromodamus
LAWL 
Also, 
EDIT: Creator just said on the comments that he's going to "have a chat" with Neil about the pricing, which I read as "threaten to withhold product unless Neil takes down the preorders for the duration of the kickstarter so it doesn't look like they are ripping off their customer base"...
58873
Post by: BobtheInquisitor
I'm falling in love with Dakka KS threads all over again.
50446
Post by: Piston Honda
Conundrum for a kickstarter.
Most if not all KS give a discount as a thanks for financially backing us. Probably could have better orchestrated and researched. Kingdom Death and CMON, MegaCon KS are probably a good way to research on how to lay out a successful kickstarter (general layout, not carbon copy).
On the other hand, if I were passionate about the product, I wouldn't necessarily mind paying full retail, if it meant the project would not be underestimated and result in dead dog s#!t minis. Also helps knowing I will get some freebies down the road as well.
Not a fan of DT rules at all, but their mechs (or robots) are some the most enjoyable miniatures I have ever painted.
69468
Post by: Spartan Baby Inspector
It is apparent that Battlefront is attempting to monetize Dust The new boxes of the older walkers now only make a single variant and retail for more than the old multi-variant boxes.
I would not be surprised to see online retailers in the future held to a maximum 10% discount, just like FOW.
72319
Post by: highlord tamburlaine
So, do I want to grab one of those $40 Tactics revised core boxes off of Miniature Market's sale?
Would that be totally different than the stuff on offer here?
It's not like I don't have a billion other things to paint, build, or play...
11558
Post by: Uriels_Flame
Hard to say. I was hoping for a grand slam and some different business model. We'll all be able to tell at the end of the kickstarter...
123
Post by: Alpharius
 Alex C wrote:
LAWL
Also,
EDIT: Creator just said on the comments that he's going to "have a chat" with Neil about the pricing, which I read as "threaten to withhold product unless Neil takes down the preorders for the duration of the kickstarter so it doesn't look like they are ripping off their customer base"...
Wow.
39827
Post by: scarletsquig
I had a little dig around and if you look on e-figures distribution site you can see the entire contents of the kickstarter (including stuff that hasn't been "funded" yet) up for retail preorder:
http://www.e-figures.com/store/DustTacticsPreOrder.php
Here's the relevant KS stuff:
BFM D217 Dust Tactics: Babylon Campaign Set ~ TBA PreOrder $20.00 Log in to see cost
BFM D306 Dust Tactics: Axis Ndak Army Box ~ TBA PreOrder $150.00 Log in to see cost
BFM D307 Dust Tactics: Axis Rommel ~ TBA PreOrder $10.00 Log in to see cost
BFM D308 Dust Tactics: Axis Afrika Korps Command ~ TBA PreOrder $25.00 Log in to see cost
BFM D309 Dust Tactics: Axis Konigslothar - Heavy Artillery Walker ~ TBA PreOrder $45.00 Log in to see cost
BFM D310 Dust Tactics: Axis Tropical Light Panzer Walker ~ TBA PreOrder $33.00 Log in to see cost
BFM D401 Dust Tactics: SSU The Butcher ~ TBA PreOrder $10.00 Log in to see cost
BFM D402 Dust Tactics: SSU Spetnaz Army Box ~ TBA PreOrder $150.00 Log in to see cost
BFM D403 Dust Tactics: SSU Spetsnaz Command Team ~ TBA PreOrder $25.00 Log in to see cost
BFM D404 Dust Tactics: SSU Spetsnaz Infiltrators Squad ~ TBA PreOrder $25.00 Log in to see cost
BFM D503 Dust Tactics: Allies Silent Jack ~ TBA PreOrder $10.00 Log in to see cost
BFM D504 Dust Tactics: Allies USMC Army Box ~ TBA PreOrder $150.00 Log in to see cost
BFM D505 Dust Tactics: Allies USMC Command Team ~ TBA PreOrder $25.00 Log in to see cost
BFM D601 Dust Tactics: Mercenary Sisters Demolition ~ TBA PreOrder $25.00 Log in to see cost
BFM D901 Dust Tactics: Archaeological Ruins ~ TBA
The characters are the same RRP as in the KS, too.
This one is the $80k stretch goal:
BFM D403 Dust Tactics: SSU Spetsnaz Command Team ~ TBA PreOrder $25.00
And this one is the "yet to be funded, but retailers have already bought them by the truckload" $90k stretch:
BFM D901 Dust Tactics: Archaeological Ruins ~ TBA
So, you can expect that list to be a spoiler for all the other "stretch goals" that backers will "fund", too.
I think this might be the clearest cut "already funded, just a preorder" KS we've seen in a while. Their cute infographic on the KS front page about how they'd have to wait to release this all really slowly if they didn't use KS is looking a touch ridiculous when retailers have already been buying all the stuff before this even launched.
I also put good odds on the contents of the retail army box ending up being 100% identical to the " KS army box + KS bonus freebies".
I do have some interest in this game, but hopefully FFG will have more to do with it in future than battlefront.
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Post by: Catyrpelius
scarletsquig wrote:I had a little dig around and if you look on e-figures distribution site you can see the entire contents of the kickstarter (including stuff that hasn't been "funded" yet) up for preorder:
http://www.e-figures.com/store/DustTacticsPreOrder.php
Here's the relevant KS stuff:
BFM D217 Dust Tactics: Babylon Campaign Set ~ TBA PreOrder $20.00 Log in to see cost
BFM D306 Dust Tactics: Axis Ndak Army Box ~ TBA PreOrder $150.00 Log in to see cost
BFM D307 Dust Tactics: Axis Rommel ~ TBA PreOrder $10.00 Log in to see cost
BFM D308 Dust Tactics: Axis Afrika Korps Command ~ TBA PreOrder $25.00 Log in to see cost
BFM D309 Dust Tactics: Axis Konigslothar - Heavy Artillery Walker ~ TBA PreOrder $45.00 Log in to see cost
BFM D310 Dust Tactics: Axis Tropical Light Panzer Walker ~ TBA PreOrder $33.00 Log in to see cost
BFM D401 Dust Tactics: SSU The Butcher ~ TBA PreOrder $10.00 Log in to see cost
BFM D402 Dust Tactics: SSU Spetnaz Army Box ~ TBA PreOrder $150.00 Log in to see cost
BFM D403 Dust Tactics: SSU Spetsnaz Command Team ~ TBA PreOrder $25.00 Log in to see cost
BFM D404 Dust Tactics: SSU Spetsnaz Infiltrators Squad ~ TBA PreOrder $25.00 Log in to see cost
BFM D503 Dust Tactics: Allies Silent Jack ~ TBA PreOrder $10.00 Log in to see cost
BFM D504 Dust Tactics: Allies USMC Army Box ~ TBA PreOrder $150.00 Log in to see cost
BFM D505 Dust Tactics: Allies USMC Command Team ~ TBA PreOrder $25.00 Log in to see cost
BFM D601 Dust Tactics: Mercenary Sisters Demolition ~ TBA PreOrder $25.00 Log in to see cost
BFM D901 Dust Tactics: Archaeological Ruins ~ TBA
If you go through the comments it appears that Battlefront is getting ready to take on every major online US retailer....
I backed this on my phone originally, but once I got home and actually looked through it... I'm pretty sure I won't be keeping my pledge.
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Post by: agnosto
LoL. I thought that was against the Kickstarter rules? Wow.
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Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim?
Too bad the only viable KS options for Warfare players start at $150 + ~$30 in shipping. I'm pretty disappointed by this KS - no good discounts and a really steep buy-in if you want figures.
Guess I'll be waiting for retail release + Miniature Market's inevitable 20-30% discounts.
~Tim?
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Post by: Alpharius
Plus free shipping.
Good job here Detective Squig - what a ridiculous 'campaign' this has turned out to be!
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Post by: Catyrpelius
Alpharius wrote:Plus free shipping.
Good job here Detective Squig - what a ridiculous 'campaign' this has turned out to be!
Maybe when they decide to try and strong arm The Warstore we will get a new discount code... This time around it could be Water or Duster...
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Post by: Trasvi
Hmm. I was looking forward to this, but I'm not seeing anything exciting.
I got into Dust with the original box set, the revised box set and now have a decent zombie force and a Soldier/3 Allies force for Dust Warfare.
The Allies pledge level, the equivalent miniatures at full retail price would be $155. At Miniature Market's current prices, $97. Compared to Kickstarter price of $150 . Plus I get them now, not August+.
I'm disappointed they're still continuing with the paper mats. After the original box set with the stiff card boards, and after Deadzone's fantastic neoprene (wetsuit material) mat, I'm not touching the paper ones again.
I've pledged for the Allied force in anticipation of seeing some nice stretch goals, but unless I end up with double what is already on offer I can't see this really being worth my while. Not trying to be 'entitled' here, or sucked into the Mantic kickstarter mould... its that getting these models from Kickstarter is currently significantly more expensive than getting the same models in other ways.
Plus Soldier/1 sucks, and all the kits come with 2 squads of them. How on earth are they supposed to stand up to the Soldier/4s in the SSU team?
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Post by: Moopy
scarletsquig wrote:
So, you can expect that list to be a spoiler for all the other "stretch goals" that backers will "fund", too.
You're missing the point. The point its that the Kickstarter isn't "funding" new minis, it's that it's getting the money together to get them out all at once instead having to wait while they come out piece meal.
That may change but currently it's about getting the funds to cut all the dies for a large splash release.
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Post by: agnosto
 Moopy wrote: scarletsquig wrote:
So, you can expect that list to be a spoiler for all the other "stretch goals" that backers will "fund", too.
You're missing the point. The point its that the Kickstarter isn't "funding" new minis, it's that it's getting the money together to get them out all at once instead having to wait while they come out piece meal.
That may change but currently it's about getting the funds to cut all the dies for a large splash release.
You did notice the delivery date of August, right? Dies don't cut themselves overnight or even within a few weeks each. Tooling and die casting is a laborious process that takes a great deal of tweaking so they've either lied about the delivery date or they lied about how far along they are in the prep production process in order to avoid getting shutdown by Kickstarter as a pre-order scheme.
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Post by: Moopy
Here are the lists of reportable violations. You'll see that "pre-orders" aren't part of that.
1. This project creator is spamming me. Project creators are not permitted to spam. This includes sending unsolicited mass emails and unsolicited @messages on Twitter.
2. This is a charity project. Funding for charities or causes is not permitted. This includes solicitations for charity organizations, awareness campaigns, and raising funds for personal (non-project) expenses.
3. This is not a project. A project is something with a clear end, like making an album, a film, or a new game. A project will eventually be completed, and something will be produced as a result.
4. Prohibited rewards. Raffles, discounts, coupons, contests, and investment offers are prohibited. For more, please review what's not allowed.
5. I see abusive behavior on this project. If you see inappropriate comments or other activity, let us know.
6. Intellectual property violation. A project is infringing on your copyright or trademark.
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Post by: scarletsquig
Yeah, you're allowed to run a pre-order scheme on KS, even large ones like Ogre straight-up stated that the game was being made anyway, regardless of KS success or failure.
Nothing wrong with it from Kickstarter's perspective, which can generally be summed up as "as long as we get our 10% and don't get sued, we don't care".
Even offering the entire contents of your webstore as add-ons is supposed to be be against the rules, and smaller projects do have it enforced... larger ones get away with it.
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Post by: Moopy
Can you show me where it says that? I'm not being combative, I'm actually interested in where that is. Especially since I backed the Ogre project.
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Post by: agnosto
Hmm you're right. I seem to recall that they used to prohibit such but it appears by what you posted that they've foregone all pretense.
It still leaves a bad impression with me though. I thought that Dust was far enough along that they wouldn't have to resort to KS as a preorder mechanism but they appear desperate enough to do so. Sad really.
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Post by: scarletsquig
@Moopy: If I remember correctly it was in the video.. I think, or wherever they talked about the history and production of it. It has been a while. It was more along the lines of "we want to figure out what kind of production run we'll need to do for this edition so that's why we're using KS, not because it won't get made if we don't fund".
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Post by: cincydooley
Alex C wrote:
LAWL
Also,
EDIT: Creator just said on the comments that he's going to "have a chat" with Neil about the pricing, which I read as "threaten to withhold product unless Neil takes down the preorders for the duration of the kickstarter so it doesn't look like they are ripping off their customer base"...
If I was Neil I'd tell him to feth off. Battlefront is a gak company.
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Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim?
BF is going to be biting the proverbial hand that feeds them if they start cracking down on discounters like Miniature Market. They move crap-tons of Dust models. Heck, for a lotta people, MM's discounts are what got them into Dust in the first place.
The fanbois over on the Dust FB groups just have this to say about discounters and those that have decided to wait for retail release to get the Babylon units : "They seem to just like stirring the gak it seems and those that stir the gak should be forced to lick the spoon."
Real classy, guys.
~Tim?
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Post by: Moopy
 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:BF is going to be biting the proverbial hand that feeds them if they start cracking down on discounters like Miniature Market. They move crap-tons of Dust models. Heck, for a lotta people, MM's discounts are what got them into Dust in the first place.
The fanbois over on the Dust FB groups just have this to say about discounters and those that have decided to wait for retail release to get the Babylon units : "They seem to just like stirring the gak it seems and those that stir the gak should be forced to lick the spoon."
Real classy, guys.
~Tim?
Jerks are everywhere. Dakka has a reputation of being fully of uppity know-it-alls who enjoy belittling new people. Painting a group with a broad brush is a bad idea.
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Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim?
Moopy wrote: Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:BF is going to be biting the proverbial hand that feeds them if they start cracking down on discounters like Miniature Market. They move crap-tons of Dust models. Heck, for a lotta people, MM's discounts are what got them into Dust in the first place. The fanbois over on the Dust FB groups just have this to say about discounters and those that have decided to wait for retail release to get the Babylon units : "They seem to just like stirring the gak it seems and those that stir the gak should be forced to lick the spoon." Real classy, guys. ~Tim?
Jerks are everywhere. Dakka has a reputation of being fully of uppity know-it-alls who enjoy belittling new people. Painting a group with a broad brush is a bad idea.
FWIW, I'm a member of the group in question and have been for over a year. Still, you've got a good point. The group in question is pretty good - there's just a handful that drag the atmosphere down. ~Tim?
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Post by: Moopy
Me too. Although I don't post much- I just like looking at all the conversion work people do on their figures.
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Post by: gunslingerpro
Kind of a disappointing showing so far. I know it's early, but the direction it seems to be headed in is less than promising.
I suppose I'll put Dust off for another year.
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Post by: warboss
 agnosto wrote:You did notice the delivery date of August, right? Dies don't cut themselves overnight or even within a few weeks each. Tooling and die casting is a laborious process that takes a great deal of tweaking so they've either lied about the delivery date or they lied about how far along they are in the prep production process in order to avoid getting shutdown by Kickstarter as a pre-order scheme.
According to the OP:
Edit: Incidentally, via there forums and Paolo Parente's FB page it was confirmed that all molds are done,
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Post by: Barzam
 gunslingerpro wrote:Kind of a disappointing showing so far. I know it's early, but the direction it seems to be headed in is less than promising.
I suppose I'll put Dust off for another year.
Aside from the vehicles, it all looks so normal. When I think Dust, what comes to mind is zombies, cyborg gorillas, lasers, and Germans with jet packs. Where's all the funk?
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
Funk is a $22 dollar stretch goal.
It's only available if you pledge for both an army and the campaign rules.
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Post by: Jehan-reznor
Hm, bummer. I'll just order them when i see it on the Japanese Amazon.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
While I don't mind paying what will turn out to be full retail on a KS I really want to support (and that's usually a smaller company)
I really don't like being what looks like flat out lied to,
If they've already 'sold' all this through to distributors, cut the moulds they should be offering some sort of basic discount to the RRP on top of any 'stretch goals'
I really hope they re-think things otherwise I forsee a real funding crash towards the end
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Post by: Sining
I like how BF thinks Neil from Thewarstore has a conspiracy to sell everything off at 25% discount. Isn't that what discount online stores do??
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Post by: Fenrir Kitsune
I'm interested in the book and $20 seems a decent price. Is that what it'd be in RRP? If so, I'll just wait until I get it off the shelf in DS or somewhere.
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Post by: Azazelx
Not all that surprised at the pricing or the "going after" Neal, etc. Battlefront have a good game (FoW) but they're well known for being a bunch of dicks - including bs like regional pricing (it was cheaper for me to get Open Fire from the UK than locally!) Just because they're not as bad as GW doesn't mean it's not also true of them.
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Post by: Hekal Xul
How very disappointing. I was quite enthusiastic about this but now it seems the whole thing is a little dodgy.
To me at least it basically seems like an attempt by the parent company to cut the retailer out of the equation by selling directly to the customer and claim the mark-up for themselves.
Its an abuse I feel of the basic intent of the Kickstarter program as well when this is so blatantly a pre-order program..
Does not bode well for the future of the game when (here at least) its hardly supported in the first place.
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Post by: Alpharius
 highlord tamburlaine wrote:Funk is a $22 dollar stretch goal.
It's only available if you pledge for both an army and the campaign rules.
Or if you wait until retail and get them cheaper, and get to use your money now on other things...
Have they tried to explain the whole "all already available to distributors" thing yet?
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Post by: Malika2
Please make that terrain you have on your banner available!
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Post by: His Master's Voice
Alpharius wrote: highlord tamburlaine wrote:Funk is a $22 dollar stretch goal.
It's only available if you pledge for both an army and the campaign rules.
Or if you wait until retail and get them cheaper, and get to use your money now on other things...
Have they tried to explain the whole "all already available to distributors" thing yet?
You think they can come up with anything beyond "we want more money"? Kinda hard given the circumstances...
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Post by: overtyrant
 His Master's Voice wrote: Alpharius wrote: highlord tamburlaine wrote:Funk is a $22 dollar stretch goal.
It's only available if you pledge for both an army and the campaign rules.
Or if you wait until retail and get them cheaper, and get to use your money now on other things...
Have they tried to explain the whole "all already available to distributors" thing yet?
You think they can come up with anything beyond "we want more money"? Kinda hard given the circumstances...
But but but they said they were all about supporting retailers.....
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Post by: Catyrpelius
Just to answer the two good points raised by Michael below.
1. You are absolutely correct about the fact we always wanted to put heroes in the army deals. The difference is that they were created to be sold at a higher retail price, US$170. These armies at full retail have $177 of product in them already, effectively giving you one of the infantry squads for free. The additional figure is another $10 so at the $100k threshold you will be getting $187 of models for $150 or 25% discount on what you purchased. Not even close to the retail price if you bought them separately, in fact quite a good deal really.
2.This is the first time we have split the campaign set out into its parts. The book is double the size and content of anything done before with four double sided posters and a three sheets of card terrain for $20. This is cheap compared to any other "book" product on the market from any company even if you threw the card and posters away.
The models are to be sold separately so that both Tactics and Warfare players can choose to just get the one they really want, something all previous sets did not give you the choice to do.
Lastly let me say that all of these models come with cards for both Tactics and Warfare, something Warfare players appreciate seeing as they have never been given cards before we came along.
Taken from the the Kickstarter comments....
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Post by: Uriels_Flame
Is that a serious comment?
Wow - good to see they are sticking to their guns I guess.
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Post by: Catyrpelius
 Uriels_Flame wrote:Is that a serious comment?
Wow - good to see they are sticking to their guns I guess.
It was a comment made by the creator of the porject roughly 6 hours ago...
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Post by: Alpharius
They've dug their heels in - and who's to say it isn't working?
I still can't believe the total is as high as it is already!
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Post by: RogueRegault
Interesting that their $150 "deal" would have cost about $100 through online retailers back when FFG was producing the game. Even now, the MSRP of $170 suggests a price of $136 on MM or Coolstuffinc.
Will have to see what stretch goals they'll add.
Personally I'm hoping for at least a pack of the heroes that are currently expansions only, for those of us Warfare players who don't want a bunch of map tiles we'll never use.
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Post by: Catyrpelius
Alpharius wrote:They've dug their heels in - and who's to say it isn't working?
I still can't believe the total is as high as it is already!
You could also argue that looking at the comments alot of people are in the same boat as me... I'm in not because there was an early bird, but if the deal doesn't get much better or their tone doesn't change I'm going to back out towards the end. Automatically Appended Next Post: RogueRegault wrote:Interesting that their $150 "deal" would have cost about $100 through online retailers back when FFG was producing the game. Even now, the MSRP of $170 suggests a price of $136 on MM or Coolstuffinc.
Will have to see what stretch goals they'll add.
Personally I'm hoping for at least a pack of the heroes that are currently expansions only, for those of us Warfare players who don't want a bunch of map tiles we'll never use.
FFG sold a hero pack... A quick look on The Warstores website shows that each are instock and sell for $14.99, their called hero packs.
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Post by: Triple9
My take is that they are applying a European model (ie., no discounts) on a US crowdfunding site in USD Not even shipping is included. Absolutely no reason for me to back this one. They seriously misjudged their target audience here and their responses in the comments pretty much prove it.
A hint to established companies going on KS. If you are skipping distributors and going directly to consumers, you have to think of a happy medium between wholesale and retail pricing to make the deal worthwhile.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
You know... I wanted to keep my opinion out of this, but i'm feeling a little personally irked.
Last night, I commented, harmlessly, but honestly, on their KS comments about the troublesome pricing. I told them what I pay on a regular basis for their products, and was told by the official KS creator/rep that clearly I had been buying product at a pricing error, or somehow got a deal BELOW what they sell their products at, at the distribution level.
They literally didn't believe my prices could be correct...
... at which point I mentioned Coolstuff, Miniatures Market, etc... and the fact that even a lazy consumer without any saavy shopping could fall onto a significantly better price, without trying.
If these attitudes and prices are marking the new normal for this system, now that Battlefront is in charge... well then I am truly well out.
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Post by: PomWallaby
I was suckered in by the Early Bird pledge levels (again). A free mini is a free mini but it is all too easy to slap some Early Bird deals on a project for an early spike and call a project a success.
All this Dust Kickstarter has shown me so far is just how many good deals are already out there for Dust. (Without the Kickstarter Risk).
I am going to take a rain check on this and come back in 30 days.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
Honestly... there were a few units I wanted a couple more of, and I obviously want a V2.0 rulebook, and new cards...
I'm not looking for strech-goal miracles, etc... but if the Battlefront folks (who we now know are the ones actually posting all the "official responses) don't come across as less belligerent, i'll probably just place one big order online elsewhere, and forget about all the Babylon models until I can find them similarly priced.
This isn't one of those times were're quibbling about value when it is a matter of +/- 5% or couple more freebie models... This is an instance where I can literally buy almost twice the product, just by going to any webstore which I already frequent.
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Post by: Alpharius
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:You know... I wanted to keep my opinion out of this, but i'm feeling a little personally irked.
Last night, I commented, harmlessly, but honestly, on their KS comments about the troublesome pricing. I told them what I pay on a regular basis for their products, and was told by the official KS creator/rep that clearly I had been buying product at a pricing error, or somehow got a deal BELOW what they sell their products at, at the distribution level.
They literally didn't believe my prices could be correct...
... at which point I mentioned Coolstuff, Miniatures Market, etc... and the fact that even a lazy consumer without any saavy shopping could fall onto a significantly better price, without trying.
If these attitudes and prices are marking the new normal for this system, now that Battlefront is in charge... well then I am truly well out.
While it is clearly, and obviously, well within their rights to run their business however they like, this is very much SOP for Battlefront.
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Post by: Catyrpelius
Alpharius wrote:NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:You know... I wanted to keep my opinion out of this, but i'm feeling a little personally irked.
Last night, I commented, harmlessly, but honestly, on their KS comments about the troublesome pricing. I told them what I pay on a regular basis for their products, and was told by the official KS creator/rep that clearly I had been buying product at a pricing error, or somehow got a deal BELOW what they sell their products at, at the distribution level.
They literally didn't believe my prices could be correct...
... at which point I mentioned Coolstuff, Miniatures Market, etc... and the fact that even a lazy consumer without any saavy shopping could fall onto a significantly better price, without trying.
If these attitudes and prices are marking the new normal for this system, now that Battlefront is in charge... well then I am truly well out.
While it is clearly, and obviously, well within their rights to run their business however they like, this is very much SOP for Battlefront.
Yup, historically Battlefront holds retailers to a maximum of a 10% discount...
I like both Dust and Flames of War, but I honestly can't remember the last time I saw either being played at any of the FLGS's I frequent.
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Post by: Necros
So, did they purposely launch the campaign on the same day as the release date for the new Wolfenstein game?
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Post by: KalashnikovMarine
overtyrant wrote: His Master's Voice wrote: Alpharius wrote: highlord tamburlaine wrote:Funk is a $22 dollar stretch goal.
It's only available if you pledge for both an army and the campaign rules.
Or if you wait until retail and get them cheaper, and get to use your money now on other things...
Have they tried to explain the whole "all already available to distributors" thing yet?
You think they can come up with anything beyond "we want more money"? Kinda hard given the circumstances...
But but but they said they were all about supporting retailers.....
From what my LGS is telling me (Games and Stuff in Bodymore, Murderland) we, being the consumer, can go to our local retailer, and purchase anything from the KS via your local retailer. You don't pledge to the KS, just make an order with your FLGS. When fulfillment comes they ship straight to your store, no shipping costs incurred to yourself, etc.
Triple9 wrote:My take is that they are applying a European model (ie., no discounts) on a US crowdfunding site in USD Not even shipping is included. Absolutely no reason for me to back this one. They seriously misjudged their target audience here and their responses in the comments pretty much prove it.
Just shy of 100k in under 24 hours says you're wrong.
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Post by: Catyrpelius
 KalashnikovMarine wrote:overtyrant wrote: His Master's Voice wrote: Alpharius wrote: highlord tamburlaine wrote:Funk is a $22 dollar stretch goal.
It's only available if you pledge for both an army and the campaign rules.
Or if you wait until retail and get them cheaper, and get to use your money now on other things...
Have they tried to explain the whole "all already available to distributors" thing yet?
You think they can come up with anything beyond "we want more money"? Kinda hard given the circumstances...
But but but they said they were all about supporting retailers.....
From what my LGS is telling me (Games and Stuff in Bodymore, Murderland) we, being the consumer, can go to our local retailer, and purchase anything from the KS via your local retailer. You don't pledge to the KS, just make an order with your FLGS. When fulfillment comes they ship straight to your store, no shipping costs incurred to yourself, etc.
Triple9 wrote:My take is that they are applying a European model (ie., no discounts) on a US crowdfunding site in USD Not even shipping is included. Absolutely no reason for me to back this one. They seriously misjudged their target audience here and their responses in the comments pretty much prove it.
Just shy of 100k in under 24 hours says you're wrong.
In the world of Kickstarters 100k in the first 24 hours is not really even worth noticing...
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Post by: KalashnikovMarine
100k isn't anything to sniff at, in KS or no. It doesn't need to do a million dollars, most KS don't. It needs to get the product made and delivered and that's happened for sure. One hour to hit the pledge goal ain't bad at all my man.
scarletsquig wrote:
I think this might be the clearest cut "already funded, just a preorder" KS we've seen in a while. Their cute infographic on the KS front page about how they'd have to wait to release this all really slowly if they didn't use KS is looking a touch ridiculous when retailers have already been buying all the stuff before this even launched.
I do have some interest in this game, but hopefully FFG will have more to do with it in future than battlefront.
FFG got bought out by Battlefront so they have nothing to do with them.
As to Efigs, you do realize that distributors get info sheets well in advance from established companies like Battlefront. That doesn't mean they're able to purchase the product now, or even be able to put pre-orders in with Battlefront's distribution system.
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Post by: Alpharius
At least $100K will finally see 1 free miniature added to each set.
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Post by: Piston Honda
Alpharius wrote:They've dug their heels in - and who's to say it isn't working?
I still can't believe the total is as high as it is already!
Dust has a small but very vocal and loyal community.
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Post by: Triple9
I may be wrong; I may be right. What we'll have to wait and see is if there is a backslide when the mid-KS lull occurs and if the perceived value is not there. If it happens, will they throw gobs of shinies at it and be recoverable ala Mantic or go into Thon territory.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
Piston Honda wrote: Alpharius wrote:They've dug their heels in - and who's to say it isn't working?
I still can't believe the total is as high as it is already!
Dust has a small but very vocal and loyal community.
See... i'd concur... but I AM said loyal community, and even I am not drunk enough to buy things at inflated prices while the company is being an ass to me as a bonus. :-p
Like I said earlier... I enthusiastically bought at least one of every single item they had ever released... until this Kickstarter which leaves me feeling uncomfortable... especially while preorders are already up at TheWarStore for the exact same items and at the price i'd have expected all along.
Now they're claiming the sets MSRP is $170, and TheWarStore is outright wrong saying their MSRP is $150. In either case, TWS has preorders up for $112, meaning they're offering a better deal than the Kickstarter, or an ABSURDLY better deal. :-p
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Post by: KalashnikovMarine
Orrrr The War Store's flat out wrong. Why in the nine circles of hell would the manufacturer offer it for an MSRP higher then what they'd do with it for standard retailers? Further more, why would Neil price it at below the standard 45% trade discount? He'd be losing money. If who ever's answering on the Kickstarter is saying TWS/Efigs (same company) has their pricing off... chances are they're right.
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Post by: Catyrpelius
KalashnikovMarine wrote:Orrrr The War Store's flat out wrong. Why in the nine circles of hell would the manufacturer offer it for an MSRP higher then what they'd do with it for standard retailers? Further more, why would Neil price it at below the standard 45% trade discount? He'd be losing money. If who ever's answering on the Kickstarter is saying TWS/Efigs (same company) has their pricing off... chances are they're right.
If you assume an MSRP of $150 (which TWS has this listed as) and a standard trade discount of 45%, it only costs TWS $82.50 to buy an army box... Even selling it at $112 their making money on the deal...
The manufactuer in this case is including additional "incentives" to justifiy their pricing, at the $150 KS level you get the army box and a free hero. At the $170 level you get the army, the free hero and the campign book.
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Post by: Alpharius
Maybe?
Not sure how much I'd 'trust' Battleground either though.
But, even without all that, people have already shown how the starter sets being offered are not a good deal, even compared to The Miniature Market's prices on the same exact things.
More or less?
Either way, this one looks like at best a completely mediocre deal, and at worst, a really bad deal.
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Post by: Nostromodamus
Worst run kickstarter that still makes a ton of money since Shadows of Brimstone?
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Post by: Uriels_Flame
I'm pretty sure we can let this go as of this point we're just piling on.
Let's check back on this one nearer the end.
60720
Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
The UK pre-orders have shown up on Wayland games http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/pre-orders/dust/cat_1950.html?utm_source=Wayland+Games+Ltd+List&utm_campaign=222e09a49a-Great_New_Releases_for_Magic_Dust_Hitech_and_Mercs&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_78b62ac9ee-222e09a49a-312506669 only a 10% discount from RRP (free shipping for orders over £40), so the KS may make sense from a European point of view if not a US one I'll leave it to those interested to work out whether this is the case
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Post by: warboss
It seems that maybe Battlefront preemptively made Wayland an offer they couldn't refuse... I'm curious if the warstore or MM will backtrack/refund the better deals.
37701
Post by: Zond
Dust models inexplicably always cost more in the UK, so not surprised. Either way if prices get backtracked it's not a good sign either, so I'm out regardless, but they've done well so no need to wish them luck.
42144
Post by: cincydooley
This is not true.
At all.
FFG let the license expire. The game wasn't hitting the margins they wanted for the amount of support it required.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
Eh... if anyone wants a pre-painted SSU slot, i'm probably going to have to respectfully bow out.
Keeping with my plan, I had no qualms about throwing Neal over at TWS a $300 order, which includes all the V2.0 cards and hardbound rules.
Seeing them even pre-selling those for 30% off was too tempting, knowing full well that the KS will make them full MSRP add-ons this afternoon (they've said as much).
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Post by: KalashnikovMarine
 cincydooley wrote:
This is not true.
At all.
FFG let the license expire. The game wasn't hitting the margins they wanted for the amount of support it required.
Which is why Battlefront paid FFG for the distribution license? Huh. Whatever you say man.
42144
Post by: cincydooley
No.
The right to license is owned by Dust Studios.
FFG allowed that license to expire.
Battlefront picked it up from Dust Studios.
And a quote:
"The last year, however, as FFG experienced phenomenal growth across many of our publishing categories, it became clear that Paolo and the Dust games would be better served by a partner who specializes in the unique business of miniature games. We’re confident that Paolo’s partner choice in Battlefront Miniatures is a strong one, and we wish nothing but the best to them, to Paolo, and to the fantastic Dust fan community.”
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
Dust Studio 8 minutes ago
Good morning from the land of Hobbits. It is 8am and we are preparing the first update of the day. Being in New Zealand does mean our clocks are not quite in the same timezone as the US but we will be working through our day to keep the information coming.
BF is a group of businesses and brands and our DUST distribution partnership is a very, very small part of that. We agreed to help Paolo do this for his brand as we have never used KS to help us launch anything and maybe that tells you more about our business model. We generate more revenue in a single board game release or month of FOW sales than DUST is worth all year so this project is all about the DUST Studio and their needs and we as partners are doing our part to help.
See... We should be grateful that Battlefront sees fit to share their strategy of belligerence and price gouging with us Dust-playing peasants. :-p
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Post by: Alpharius
I probably shouldn't be shocked when a wargame/boardgame company shows that they don't really understand customer service/PR...
11558
Post by: Uriels_Flame
Being transparent, I'll give them that.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
And to think.... there was a time when I urgently wanted to see Battlefront's take on a 15mm version of Dust...
:-p
25 pledges for each prepainted army just went live, btw.
55738
Post by: CaulynDarr
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Dust Studio 8 minutes ago
Good morning from the land of Hobbits. It is 8am and we are preparing the first update of the day. Being in New Zealand does mean our clocks are not quite in the same timezone as the US but we will be working through our day to keep the information coming.
BF is a group of businesses and brands and our DUST distribution partnership is a very, very small part of that. We agreed to help Paolo do this for his brand as we have never used KS to help us launch anything and maybe that tells you more about our business model. We generate more revenue in a single board game release or month of FOW sales than DUST is worth all year so this project is all about the DUST Studio and their needs and we as partners are doing our part to help.
See... We should be grateful that Battlefront sees fit to share their strategy of belligerence and price gouging with us Dust-playing peasants. :-p
To me that reads as, "We don't actually trust in Dust as a brand enough to invest our money in it, but If you want to, then by all means."
And I'm totally confused. It sounds like BF is running a Kickstater for Dust Studios under the name of Dust Studios. Only it's really Battlefront who's giving all the money to Paolo. So that he can make the miniatures Battlefront doesn't want to pay for. So that Battlefront can make money selling them to the warstore. Who's selling them at 40% off of what Battlefront as Dust Studio is pre-selling them through the Kickstarter. If this makes no sense, you must acquit.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
 CaulynDarr wrote:NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Dust Studio 8 minutes ago
Good morning from the land of Hobbits. It is 8am and we are preparing the first update of the day. Being in New Zealand does mean our clocks are not quite in the same timezone as the US but we will be working through our day to keep the information coming.
BF is a group of businesses and brands and our DUST distribution partnership is a very, very small part of that. We agreed to help Paolo do this for his brand as we have never used KS to help us launch anything and maybe that tells you more about our business model. We generate more revenue in a single board game release or month of FOW sales than DUST is worth all year so this project is all about the DUST Studio and their needs and we as partners are doing our part to help.
See... We should be grateful that Battlefront sees fit to share their strategy of belligerence and price gouging with us Dust-playing peasants. :-p
To me that reads as, "We don't actually trust in Dust as a brand enough to invest our money in it, but If you want to, then by all means."
And I'm totally confused. It sounds like BF is running a Kickstater for Dust Studios under the name of Dust Studios. Only it's really Battlefront who's giving all the money to Paolo. So that he can make the miniatures Battlefront doesn't want to pay for. So that Battlefront can make money selling them to the warstore. Who's selling them at 40% off of what Battlefront as Dust Studio is pre-selling them through the Kickstarter. If this makes no sense, you must acquit.
Oh, they are... People called them out on it last night, even having the "Admin" poster using Paolo Parente's image as their icon.
When you look at the payment info, you're paying Battlefront, not Dust Studios. Their name is all over everything, but this KS is absolutely lead by BF.
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Post by: warboss
I guess we know exactly why FFG passed on the license which confirms the common sense speculation... it simply doesn't sell well. I don't think this KS will help that much though in the end. I don't think it'll go down in flames and unfund but I do expect it to eventually dip down in the mid campaign lull instead of plateuaing as the news of how mediocre at best the "deal" apparently is.
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Post by: wildger
The second and probably the last patch of the premium sets is up and it is going away fast.
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Post by: Ernster
I was excited when I heard this was going to KS....then I saw the prices. The comments from the creators also did not help in the selling of this KS for me. The prices have increased and attitude has as well. I thought I had walked into GW's first KS.
I love Dust and have spent a large sum of money on all three armies. I will wait until this hits my online store, that's if Battlefront has not already created a minimum discount price for stores to sale their product like a certain company. I do not know why people are arguing with the Creators about discounts and providing them company names. I never tell people the best fishing spot unless it is among friends. You can now bet that 30 percent discount you received online will now be significantly slashed.
The prices on the troops have increased but doubt the material has. Those prices are great had they went with had plastic like GW. The bendy weapons,mold lines and often distorted faces are not worth that price.
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Post by: basement.dweller
Wow - this is kind of sad. Not personally vested, but I've been interested in the "mechs" and people have generally said good things about the quality. BF does not really come through as a sympathetic company and I cringed when I read that quote about how little money DUST makes them.
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Post by: Uriels_Flame
Ok, but someone is buying this stuff!?
123
Post by: Alpharius
P. T. Barnum was right!
All kidding aside, there are some freebies here, and the deal might get better as this moves along.
Granted, 4 of the first 5 fake 'stretch goals' were for paid add-ons, but, who knows?
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Post by: His Master's Voice
That quote from BF... I guess silence is golden.
I'm trying to find something that would get me to spend money on this but I simply can't. A bunch of boring infantry models that may or may not be new (it's so boring I can't tell, I just instantly doze off after looking at them) and mechs that are essentially repaints of existing kits.
Where's my Japan Imperial Army? Where's my Vk? Heck, where's a proper mech for the SSU?
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Post by: Ernster
Hmmmmm, they are also showing the Medium Mech's at a price of $33 rrp when they just raised the price to $30. Is this another price increase fire warning? The troops have also gone up by $2 dollars. The Ally marine devil Dogs released by Battle front are $20.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
His Master's Voice: I was right there with you until you said, "proper mech for SSU". :-p I play them primarily and love my junky, cobbled-together walkers. :-)
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Post by: draugadan
I was excited about this. Not so sure now. I have a pretty good sized Axis army, and I enjoy DUST:Warfare. I have pledged to a few KS'ers, but I can't see myself giving to this one unless stuff changes. I really don't see the point in pre-ordering this.
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Post by: Azazelx
PomWallaby wrote:I was suckered in by the Early Bird pledge levels (again). A free mini is a free mini but it is all too easy to slap some Early Bird deals on a project for an early spike and call a project a success.
All this Dust Kickstarter has shown me so far is just how many good deals are already out there for Dust. (Without the Kickstarter Risk).
I am going to take a rain check on this and come back in 30 days.
Oldest retail trick in the book.
Reminds me of a local FLGS retailer. He had a large travel-luggage style figure case for $220, and offers a flat 10% on all his products.
When I went to the manufacturer's website to see where else they're sold, I noticed that their MSRRP for those cases was $200....
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Post by: Ernster
Just as expected, the medium walkers at the battlefront store that had increased to $30 have now just been increased $33. Of course the troops have also been increased as well.
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Post by: Sining
 Azazelx wrote:PomWallaby wrote:I was suckered in by the Early Bird pledge levels (again). A free mini is a free mini but it is all too easy to slap some Early Bird deals on a project for an early spike and call a project a success.
All this Dust Kickstarter has shown me so far is just how many good deals are already out there for Dust. (Without the Kickstarter Risk).
I am going to take a rain check on this and come back in 30 days.
Oldest retail trick in the book.
Reminds me of a local FLGS retailer. He had a large travel-luggage style figure case for $220, and offers a flat 10% on all his products.
When I went to the manufacturer's website to see where else they're sold, I noticed that their MSRRP for those cases was $200....
Better than the cafeteria shop at my friends workplace. Where they sold 1 puff for 30 cents and 3 for 1 dollar. And people still bought the 1 dollar option -_-
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Post by: endtransmission
well, THAT explains the higher than original rrp price for the add-ons. The last update from them before closing down for the day was that the next stretch goal "allows them to drop the price" of the add-ons by 10%.
Sounds exactly like that cafeteria and shop...
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Post by: Azazelx
Sining wrote: Azazelx wrote:
Better than the cafeteria shop at my friends workplace. Where they sold 1 puff for 30 cents and 3 for 1 dollar. And people still bought the 1 dollar option -_-
Well, that's just people not paying attention or not caring about 10 cents. As opposed to lying about the RRP of a $200 item and then claiming to give a 10% discount on it...
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Post by: Mr. Burning
I'm still on the fence with this one.
Wanted to dip my toes into the DUST universe and a KS seems a good idea to do that, but BF are making such an awful job of this - right from the off - that I probably won't touch this unless something stunning happens.
Looks like it will fund though so......
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Post by: Azazelx
I'd recommend looking to see if you can find an older Dust Tictacs starter set in a FLGS or online store somewhere.
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Post by: Catyrpelius
Azazelx wrote:I'd recommend looking to see if you can find an older Dust Tictacs starter set in a FLGS or online store somewhere.
Definatly this, the original boxed game was a fantastic value. I really wish I had picked up another one when they announced the newer boxed set. Automatically Appended Next Post: Jean the $150 armies are not starter sets really as they are new force boxes that give you $187 of new Babylon items for $150. Starter sets have rules and dice etc, so everything you need to play in them and that is what we are about to add to the pledge levels. The new $60 starter sets are just that, a hero, a unit, a walker, some dice and the new rules. $106 for $60 and themed to Babylon.
Yeyy for new math...
People always bust on the education system in the USA, but it looks like we can't even hold a candel to New Zealand...
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Post by: Azazelx
Candle.
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Post by: Catyrpelius
There is a reason why I'm an engineer and not someone that writes inteligably for a living...
72319
Post by: highlord tamburlaine
For those interested, Miniature Market still has the revised core set of Dust for $40.00. That's the cheapest I've seen it. Supposedly they still have quite a few copies too.
Too bad nobody wants to give it a go with me. 
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
$40 is a STEAL for that box. It has decent play value, self contained, as is, for the price, but more-so its an awesome starting point to build from.
I mean, I play Malifaux, and expect to get... oh... six models, maybe one is 40mm for that price, whereas the Dust Revised Starter gets you more than quadruple that, especially considering the awesome walkers.
It feels weird because i'm simultaneously ragging on this awful Kickstarter, but wanting to support the amazing game.
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Post by: Alpharius
You can do both!
The game may be fun, the miniatures (especially the walkers) may be nice, but the Kickstarter can still be a 'bad deal'.
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Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim?
Yeah, even though this KS has been a PR nightmare, the game itself is still loads of fun. If/when everything blows up or fizzles out and dies (starting to feel more like a "when" these days) at least we'll still have a great game and figures to use.
~Tim?
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
Oh, I know Alpharius... It just feels weird. You'd think as a 40k player i'd be familiar with the dicotomy of "I love the game, and loath the publisher". :-p
I guess i'm just a touch heart-broken. Maybe working for Mantic has spoiled me, but I know the value of going all-in... and letting ambition even exceed your grasp a little, when it comes to launching a game.
I love Dust, and it both deserves to be, and could be a wildly played game, and a major player in our hobby... if the stewards of it just tried a bit harder.
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Post by: porkuslime
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:$40 is a STEAL for that box. It has decent play value, self contained, as is, for the price, but more-so its an awesome starting point to build from.
What do you get in that box? I went to MM and did not really see a parts/miniature list..
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Post by: Catyrpelius
 porkuslime wrote:NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:$40 is a STEAL for that box. It has decent play value, self contained, as is, for the price, but more-so its an awesome starting point to build from.
What do you get in that box? I went to MM and did not really see a parts/miniature list..
1 Blackhawk Walker
1 Rhino Hero
5 Hell Boys Soldiers
5 Death Dealers Soldiers
3 The Hammers Soldiers
1 Hans Walker
1 Lara Hero
5 Sturmpioniere Soldiers
3 Heavy Laser Grenadiers Soldiers
3 Heavy Flak Grenadiers Soldiers
It use to be that you could only get the walkers from this starter set, I don't know if thats changed or not though.
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Post by: Twelvecarpileup
Have they said anything about Dust Warfare? Or is that just dead?
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Post by: warboss
If you click on their name on the kickstarter, you'll see their individual comments and there is an interesting bit there that was at least news to me as a casual observer of this game.
The core rules belong to FFG games until they have sold every single copy of them and then they revert to Paolo so he can choose what to do next. BF has no ability to change this so we are supporting it, making cards, giving away free campaign material and doing our best to keep it alive. Warfare is ours to support but unlike Tactics that we are tasked with managing directly it will rest with FFG for the foreseeable future.
I don't know if that is "news" to those who follow it more regularly but it doesn't give me personally much hope in battlefront doing anything more than cards on the warfare front. edit: forgot the link... https://www.kickstarter.com/profile/duststudio/comments
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Post by: KalashnikovMarine
Cards (aka stat updates) with every release and every new model, and supplements as they come. I think they're doing the supplements for free.
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Post by: CaulynDarr
KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Cards (aka stat updates) with every release and every new model, and supplements as they come. I think they're doing the supplements for free.
I would characterize Warfare as being on life support. It's in a precarious position. Paolo never liked it, Battlefront is limited on what they can do with it because of licensing, and they can't just kill it as the game's margins are too slim to loose the Warfare players.
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Post by: KalashnikovMarine
Battlegrounds is the answer to that I believe
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Post by: Crimson Devil
BF can't say or do anything that undermines FFG's remaining stock. That we know. So regardless of whether BF intends to kill Warfare or release 2nd edition, they can't tell us yet. Thus leaving a void filled with everyone's hopes, fears, and groundless speculation.
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Post by: Alpharius
Is that the boardgame/wargame hybrid?
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Post by: CaulynDarr
Yeah, except if you happen to actually like Warfare as a self contained game. Battlefront seems to want it both ways. Either have the stones to kill Warfare and get people to play Battlegrounds, or buy the rules and remaining stock off of FFG to support Warfare properly.
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Post by: Crimson Devil
That would probably depend on the amount of FFG stock and BF's future plans. Why buy it if they plan to update or kill it?
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Post by: Catyrpelius
Well this is a thing...
150k, 225k and 300k are free ones with add-ons in between. We will get a little more ahead each day and show things further in advance but each one must be done as a separate update and you can only do one at a time so James is typing as fast as he can and the rest of the team are feeding him images and graphics as he needs them.
My guess is this KS is never going to reach the level of actually being a good deal and is going to quietly fade into irrelevance.
72319
Post by: highlord tamburlaine
Took the plunge and ordered myself up a core set and a few extra squads of axis junk, along with an allies fuchikoma tank.
Was not aware that there were pile driving, rocket tossing, killer apes on the loose.
Hope to get in a game or two before the KS ends, or before I end up back in Japan. Not sure which will actually occur first.
-dumb question, but have there ever been talks of a Japanese Dust army at some point?
36
Post by: Moopy
CaulynDarr wrote: KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Cards (aka stat updates) with every release and every new model, and supplements as they come. I think they're doing the supplements for free.
I would characterize Warfare as being on life support. It's in a precarious position. Paolo never liked it, Battlefront is limited on what they can do with it because of licensing, and they can't just kill it as the game's margins are too slim to loose the Warfare players.
If that were the case they wouldn't bother putting the warfare cards in with all the new releases. Here's a bit from the #10 update on the KS. "Dust Warfare players - we haven't forgotten you guys, but we don't have images of the cards for these available yet. Don't worry, though, they will be ready quite soon, and you can rest assured that every model for Operation Babylon will come with its card for both Tactics and Warfare."
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Post by: Trasvi
highlord tamburlaine wrote:Took the plunge and ordered myself up a core set and a few extra squads of axis junk, along with an allies fuchikoma tank.
Was not aware that there were pile driving, rocket tossing, killer apes on the loose.
Hope to get in a game or two before the KS ends, or before I end up back in Japan. Not sure which will actually occur first.
-dumb question, but have there ever been talks of a Japanese Dust army at some point?
No plans for Japanese faction. Japanese are currently a subset of the Axis, and they have a few re-badged Axis walkers on the Dust Models site.
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Post by: Barzam
What ever happened to bringing in the Vril, or whatever the aliens were called? I thought that was going to be the next step in the game's story.
They need to add some more funk to this one. Maybe some mummies or mutated Axis giant scorpions with mounted machine guns. Or some Soviet Cyborg tank-men. SOMETHING
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
Battle Accountants.
I'd buy them.
55738
Post by: CaulynDarr
Moopy wrote:
If that were the case they wouldn't bother putting the warfare cards in with all the new releases. Here's a bit from the #10 update on the KS. "Dust Warfare players - we haven't forgotten you guys, but we don't have images of the cards for these available yet. Don't worry, though, they will be ready quite soon, and you can rest assured that every model for Operation Babylon will come with its card for both Tactics and Warfare."
That's the bare minimum though. I've heard that the warfare play-testing is minimal, and they haven't done anything in terms of enhancing or maintaining the core rules.
Like I said, they can't afford to loose the warfare players, but there aren't in a position to support it properly. I'm sure they would rather all the Warfare players switch to Battlefields.
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Post by: RogueRegault
 Barzam wrote:What ever happened to bringing in the Vril, or whatever the aliens were called? I thought that was going to be the next step in the game's story.
They need to add some more funk to this one. Maybe some mummies or mutated Axis giant scorpions with mounted machine guns. Or some Soviet Cyborg tank-men. SOMETHING
They just need to add a couple more factions. My brother was already pissed as all hell when every new Axis model for a year was either zombies or gorillas.
If they added Vril and gave Ryu some Chi-ro, Chi-ha, Chi-nu based walkers instead of German castoffs, that'd be great.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
They have said, in the past that Vril and Japanese would be full factions at some point. I can't help but believe that if the game had done better that we would've easily seen them by now. As it stands they're a white-whale, and Paolo will just occassionally mention that he still really wants to do them.
Plus, I want him to do them, so I can have my inevitable, cheap, "Not-a-Riptide". :-p
Meanwhile... how about those freebies huh?
So... for a BONUS as a backer of MSRP priced, direct-sales product... I get the option that until RIGHT NOW, was a standard, free option, with every single kit i've purchased.
Terrific. Its almost a comically bad deal when they try to make the stretch-goal bonuses things I have already had.
Speaking of which... that last "free" Allied hero in the new goals looks conspicuously like Bazooka Joe... again. :-p
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Post by: Cergorach
It could be me, but when I do the math, that $150 KS army deal is as expensive as the preorder at Wayland Games (at the 10% discount), only Wayland includes shipping. And your not telling me that Dust is making an army deal without at least one hero included?
I'm not even talking about the value compared to the previous Dust Tactics starters, but the price of the KS army deal buys me three starters at full retail. That's also including specialty dice and a basic rulebook. 1 Walker, 2 infantry units and 1 hero. So a bigger armydeal at $150 I would expect at least 3 walkers (check!), 6 units (bleep!) and 3 hero's (bleep!). Maybe if the KS ever gets to this level for the army deals I might be tempted...
I also get the distinct impression that they are trying to sell existing fans a new army but with doing as little new miniatures as possible (the basic infantry wears less/no winter gear?), all the tanks and heavy units are not even repaints as we get them primed...
Don't get me wrong I like the idea of Dust, it always reminds me of dp9's Gear Krieg, it just never took off...
I'm half tempted to buy a couple of boxes of Dreamforge Stormtroopers you get 10 for the same price as you got 5 Dust troopers, they also have 30mm bases... Would make excellent Germans ;-)
Now if/when that DF Black Widow comes out in plastic Paolo is going to cry ;-)
36
Post by: Moopy
CaulynDarr wrote: Moopy wrote: If that were the case they wouldn't bother putting the warfare cards in with all the new releases. Here's a bit from the #10 update on the KS. "Dust Warfare players - we haven't forgotten you guys, but we don't have images of the cards for these available yet. Don't worry, though, they will be ready quite soon, and you can rest assured that every model for Operation Babylon will come with its card for both Tactics and Warfare."
That's the bare minimum though. I've heard that the warfare play-testing is minimal, and they haven't done anything in terms of enhancing or maintaining the core rules. Like I said, they can't afford to loose the warfare players, but there aren't in a position to support it properly. I'm sure they would rather all the Warfare players switch to Battlefields.
Until we can quantify what you heard soundly, its rumors. They I see it is this: when a company releases a product they want it to make a splash. They're not going to tout up other projects in the works as much because they want to get the most bang for their buck in the current release. That's not saying they're not working on the next release, it's that they're just not talking about it. If you want a 40k example it would be players saying GW is killing off orks because they're not talking about orks during an Eldar release. To me there's a difference betweening shelving a project and not talking about a project. They said Warfare is still in the works, I'll believe that until proven that they're not. If that happens I'll be super pissed because they fooled me, but I'm not jumping to that point yet.
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Post by: Cergorach
Moopy wrote:[
If you want a 40k example it would be players saying GW is killing off orks because they're not talking about orks during an Eldar release.
At one point GW certainly talked about Orks during an Eldar release, they don't now because 40k is a 25+ year brand where we know the score. There will always be another Ork release and a new edition...
The problem here is that Dust is now in the hands of a third licensor (AEG, => FFG => BF) and the magic eight-ball says "Future unsure", that's why a lot of folks are being so antsy regarding dust because they don't know if BF is even planning to have Dust around for their next edition...
This KS isn't helping, the Dust/ BF guys have either not researched other miniatures KS or are letting their BF 'arrogance' lead them on, and after I read some of the comments I think "Both!"...
36
Post by: Moopy
The ork/eldar example was pulled out of the air. The point was currently they don't talk about one product during another product release. I've seen this with many other companies.
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Post by: Ernster
@Cergorach, do you have any more info on The Black Widow? Release date or price...it may make Paolo cry but I smiled.
53523
Post by: Sining
Man, Bfront's comments are so full of bs. They talk about how they want to support retailers so they're not giving away lots of stuff and yet this KS is nothing more than a blatant attempt to grab a larger slice of the pre-order pie for themselves than they would through retailers. Especially since they want to 'talk' to online discounters about their discounts.
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Post by: Phobos
So is this a bad time to get into this game?
I have the revised starter set, and just ordered the warfare book and the SSU starter set from miniature market. Should I just back out and return the stuff? Is it all going to be compatible with whatever is coming out? Miniature market has some other dust kits and expansions on sale too, what is the deal with those?
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Post by: Piston Honda
Nice they want to support local game shops, but my not all that local game shop refuses to order any product from battle front ever again.
My only option is to purchase from online shops. Steep discounts is a big reason why I purchased dust in the first place.
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Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim?
 Phobos wrote:So is this a bad time to get into this game?
I have the revised starter set, and just ordered the warfare book and the SSU starter set from miniature market. Should I just back out and return the stuff? Is it all going to be compatible with whatever is coming out? Miniature market has some other dust kits and expansions on sale too, what is the deal with those?
Contrary to what people on this thread have to say, it's actually a good time to get into the game. The only real issue is the crappy Kickstarter campaign, which won't affect you if you don't pledge for it. TBH, this thread is getting a little over-the-top in the negativity department...
Anyways, if you have a buddy to play the game with and/or just like the models, hold on to them. Nothing's going to be made incompatible.
~Tim?
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
Isn't that the beauty of most tabletop games?
Even when companies run games into the ground, you'll still have all the models and rules available, and opponents willing, the game you invested in really isn't going anywhere.
I'm in the same boat though. I know one store about 40 minutes away or so that still supports Dust, so I could probably scrounge up players.
More than likely I'll just sucker friends and family into playing. Hopefully Tactics plays as easy as I've heard, and I can get everyone into the game quickly.
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Post by: Alpharius
That's only 'the beauty' if you've got friends/gaming group invested in and committed to playing a 'dead game'.
That isn't always the case, it isn't always easy to find, and if so, it means that Dead Game is well and truly Dead.
Not saying that's what's happening here though!
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Post by: warboss
Alpharius wrote:That's only 'the beauty' if you've got friends/gaming group invested in and committed to playing a 'dead game'.
That isn't always the case, it isn't always easy to find, and if so, it means that Dead Game is well and truly Dead.
Not saying that's what's happening here though!
I wholeheartedly agree. If you can't play the game, it is effectively a wasted purchase regardless of whether the company is continuing to screw up or long ago folded because of their screw ups.
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Post by: Sean_OBrien
Alpharius wrote:That's only 'the beauty' if you've got friends/gaming group invested in and committed to playing a 'dead game'.
That isn't always the case, it isn't always easy to find, and if so, it means that Dead Game is well and truly Dead.
Not saying that's what's happening here though!
I've found the older I get the more interested my peers are in playing dead games. They would rather buy in once, amass a decent sized collection, learn the rules and play till they die as opposed to deal with new releases, new rules and change for the sake of change.
Granted, I really haven't seen anything that makes me think Dust is a dead or dying game at all. It is stuck in the middle of some transitional issues which no doubt has upset a number of players. Battlefront no doubt wanted change for the sake of change so they can make a bit of money on the deal. There is also no shortage of Weird War II games out there - so the vast majority of the figures can live on for a long time should Dust implode on itself.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
Beasts of War was talking about this KS on their weekender
http://www.beastsofwar.com/the-weekender/weekender-40k-7th-edition-big-dust-news/
Generally enthusiastic (not too surprising), but one interesting bit came up
There is supposed to be some sort of shipping thing going on with FLGS (presumably those plugged in to the BF distribution network) where pledges will be shipped to the store for free
(and the store will get a 'cut' of the pledge from BF)
worth keeping an eye out for when they announce it officially if you're backing and have a nearby game store that ends up being able to take part
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
I enjoy BoW, but also treat it as a well intentioned commercial. They love everything, gloriously spread corporate kool-aid, etc...
If it had gone on much longer, I think they would've started felating Battlefront. :-p
That said... someone asked if now was a good time to get into Dust, and I say absolutely yes.
The game is incredible, and the older models can be had extremely cheaply on sites like Miniature's Market. You can bypass nearly all of Battlefront's non-sense, and be playing a terrific game, at a big scope, and good price, right away.
Likewise, it really does look like the Tactics 2.0 rulebook and cards are a decent purchase. The battlefield rules look like a good middle-ground between board and full table-top game (but it still plays quickly), and with the stat cards you can just proxy or buy up the excellent, and cheaper FFG Dust models, and stick up your nose at Battlefront in general.
Plus, sooooo many of the "new" Kickstar models are slight reworks of old models, with power-creep new super stats, so it seems we might be able to ignore them. The new walkers almost across the board are identical molds/sculpts with one slight weapon tweak, and a raised price... but in exchange they seem more loaded with super-guns than ever... :-p Even the new Infantry 1, generic infantry units seems to roll walls of dice compared to old infantry.... so i'll just be opting out of mixing those in for a while.
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Post by: KalashnikovMarine
Sining wrote:Man, Bfront's comments are so full of bs. They talk about how they want to support retailers so they're not giving away lots of stuff and yet this KS is nothing more than a blatant attempt to grab a larger slice of the pre-order pie for themselves than they would through retailers. Especially since they want to 'talk' to online discounters about their discounts.
Then why did they make all the KS deals available through your local retailer? That's how I'm getting my stuff for the KS. I don't even have to pay shipping. The other benefit whether it was Dust Studio's or Battlefront's idea to run the KS (I doubt it was Battlefront, this is a business decision and they (Battlefront) are just the distributor for Dust) is this does make a splash, successful kickstarters always generate noise and interest and that's a purely positive thing for getting more people to try out a fun game.
As to the latter... why in the nine hells wouldn't they talk to people violating Battlefront's long standing discount policy that only serves to devalue an already cheap game? That's just poor business sense.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Likewise, it really does look like the Tactics 2.0 rulebook and cards are a decent purchase. The battlefield rules look like a good middle-ground between board and full table-top game (but it still plays quickly), and with the stat cards you can just proxy or buy up the excellent, and cheaper FFG Dust models, and stick up your nose at Battlefront in general.
You mean the same models Dust Studios has been manufacturing all along right? Not like FFG was making any product, just mismanaging the one they had. You should probably just stick with V1 rules though, why give BF and DS any of your money until they perform they way you want them to and never change anything ever? Oh no I got my Konigsluther for $45 and supported a game I enjoy and a studio I want to see continue to do great things. Damn. However shall I survive? Especially when an equivalent sized kit from workshop likely would have been at least $75.
I am starting to think about shelving my Dust army though, much as I like the game. If this thread's any representation of the Dust Community it might not be a group I want to be associated with in the first place. Some of you are worse than the whiniest dregs of the Workshop fanboy community. Especially when a bunch of you spent the last six months to a year whining about a lack of support and releases. So when something finally does break and things do start happening to show you that hey! The game still lives and should continue to for the foreseeable future, but best to complain because goddess forbid things change.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
Man... I thought I was a fanboy....
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Post by: KalashnikovMarine
Don't worry, you are. The worst kind too apparently since you and several others in this thread wouldn't even pay to support the studio and the game at retail.
With customers and fans like you, who needs enemies?
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
I made this thread out of genuine enthusiasm.
I've purchased 1-3 of every single release to date and will continue to do so even in the age of Battlefront.
I, more than most, have earned the opportunity to be critical, and disapprove of a belligerant, virtually hostile company harming a game I love.
I don't think i've said a single thing about the game being bad, or not wanting to support it.
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Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim?
Both Kalashnikov AND NewTruth have fair points. Yes, BF hasn't come across well both during this KS and the transition phase. And yes, some of the posters on this thread are being ridiculously hypercritical/making it sound like their problem is with the game and not the company, which does nothing to help the game and just drags everyone down.
~Tim?
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
So there's aliens in the mix somewhere?
Has there ever been any official art of them?
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Post by: MajorTom11
Let's everyone play nice here, you can disagree with a position and argue the point, but you can't attack the person. If you are riled up and are in a long-running argument 1 to 1, then I suggest all parties who can't keep it cool lay off this thread for a few days.
It's just toy soldiers guys, supposed to be fun...
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Post by: Phobos
OK, so like I said, I've got the revised starter set. Should I learn to play with these rules or what? Will the SSU starter set I bought work wits this rule book?
Also what is the deal with the cards? I see 2 different sets of cards for sale. What are they?
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Post by: Moopy
Yes, you should learn with the current rule set because you are more likely in finding people to play against.
Better yet you can get get the OLD starter sets, with lots of great models and then just update the cards that go along with them. All the old models work 100% fine.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the question about the cards, the figures can be used in two different versions of DUST.
Tactics/Battlefield more of fast paced simplified game that's lots of fun. I haven't tried Battlefield yet, but it's similar to Tactics except it doesn't use a square based map.
Warfare is a tactical game more like 40K. It's ruleset is a little more involved than Tactics and doesn't use a square based map.
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Post by: Phobos
How do I know which is an Old starter set?
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
The new ones (in the KS) are not yet available,
so if you can buy it now )for delivery now) it's old,
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Post by: Syndrom
So i want to start collecting dust tactics/battlefield and try to introduce it in my local gaming club.
So for demo games i would need two armies.
My question is, can i just buy the current starter sets and the current rulebook? Or am i wrong?
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Post by: KalashnikovMarine
The current $50 factional starter sets are V2 rules and will work just fine. They come with rules and then you'll be able to pick up the new full rule book which includes Battlefield which is not as simplified as people are saying from my understanding, when it releases in the next month or so as I recall.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
Over night the Kickstarter saw a few new pledge-tiers added, the higher of which are finally adding unquestionable "value" in terms of legitimate, outright freebies.
Pledges at the $300 unpainted tier get two armies, with all stretch-goals, as well as the hardcover rule-book and campaign expansion (Operation Babylon)
Pledges at $450 unpainted, and up get the above plus acrylic token sets and Dust Tactics card decks for all previous faction units as well.
In both cases, Battlefront is letting people trade out Tactics stuff for credit towards more minis, etc... afterwards if you don't need a given item.
Not a HUGE paradigm shift, but the needle is moving in the direction of "value" again, and the pledges are all set to receive another free stretch-goal sometime today.
I'm still not jumping for joy... but they're obviously at least mulling over ways to right the course.
Also, comments over-night very coyly alluded to, but did in fact mention the Japanese faction being something in the cooker for the Dust universe, going forward... so that is still happening, it seems.
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Post by: Twelvecarpileup
So despite my initial hesitation I've jumped on board with it.
For Dust Warfare I looked into it in depth. Basically, they can't publish any of the current Dust Warfare books stuff until FFG completely sells off their stock. Fair enough. In the meantime though, they did just come out with the every unit in card form (something I've been dying for), and have said they'll be publishing all new units warfare stats on their web page. So a bit of support, but not major support. But Warfare never really had major support.
I still think Warfare is a great rule system and will continue to play it. As for getting into it now? Why not, minis are cheap, there's still support for it.
Seriously, what's the investment for a full army for dust right now? $100?
Totally worth it if you even have one friend who plays it. The tanks alone are worth it just to own.
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
If the total keeps climbing at the rate it does, then I can see even the single army pledges becoming a bit more of a deal, especially as more heroes, mats, and terrain pieces end up added to the pile.
The true value will be there for me if any more units (or walkers, which I doubt) get added to the pledges rather than as just another add on.
At the very least I'll probably end up with a walker or two.
Now if they *DO* go through with the Japanese.... then I'm done for. Hell, my kids said they'd give the game a try if the Japanese get added, and they tend to despise "soldier" games as they call it. Fantasy and space if fine, but anything that reeks of reality and it's all of a sudden a big fat "NO." Odd.
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Post by: Twelvecarpileup
Ha, I wouldn't say Dust "reeks' of reality...
I don't expect us to see a walker, I think with the current pace of the kickstarter we might see it hitting all it's current stretch goals.
I could see them throwing in a five man squad after maybe? Or another hero?
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
Reality for my kids means anything human these days.
They live in a house full of dinosaurs, Ultraman and Godzilla kaiju, old horror and scifi comics, and piles of monster miniatures all over the place.
Non- heroic scale humans in traditional uniforms with guns that aren't as big as their bodies are a bit of an anomaly unfortunately.
They were all for pile- driving, flame throwing apes and walking tanks however.
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Post by: Dullspork
One frame of one comic back in the early days. I doubt that it's even considered official at this point.
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Post by: Starfarer
 Dullspork wrote:
One frame of one comic back in the early days. I doubt that it's even considered official at this point.
Errr.. what? The Aliens are the entire backstory of the Dust universe. That's how all the human factions have the technology they do, recovered alien tech. Anyway, they stated they will add the Vril at some point, so it is completely official. That's like saying The Emperor in 40k is unofficial because it doesn't have a model.
As for the kickstarter, I wasn't too happy with the idea at first, but if it gets the entire Babylon wave out now, I'm all for it. I'm personally not super excited about the setting, but most of the models are very cool. I'm just ready for the Pacific campaign and the Japanese to launch. The current factions are all great, but the one drawback of Dust is the lack of variety in factions.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
Well the first of what people would consider a normal, "hefty" freebie stretch-goal was just announced, with each "Army Deal" getting a free walker chassis if the campaign reaches $450,000. In essence it adds about 20-30 to each $150 pledged as it lets those extra arm freebies actually be fielded concurrently.
Not bad, but that is a high goal to reach for the first genuinely exciting stretch-goal.
Especially with the freebies included in the higher tiers (rules books, dice, card sets...) there is SLOWLY a value trickling into this KS, but its also very rigid, making me still feel like i'm inclined to get more bang for my buck by waiting for discounted retail and cherry picking the exciting items.
Also, the shadowed upcoming stretch-goals FINALLY show models that don't seem to be reusing chassis and body molds from earlier units.
So many units, Walkers and Infantry alike are using repeat poses from existing Dust models which does drive me crazy though.
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Post by: warboss
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
So many units, Walkers and Infantry alike are using repeat poses from existing Dust models which does drive me crazy though.
So alot of the new stuff is just repaints of older items?
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Post by: Scott
No, not repaints of older items.
From what I can see, new units of Soldier 1 category (basically, fatiques and helmet, no armor vests) - truly basic grunts - are in the works for the existing three factions: light troops for tropical/desert environment.
Also, there are new Soldier 3 - Marines in powered armor, and the equivalent for the Krauts as well (the SSU skipped that category of soldier and went right up to Soldier 4 but I haven't seen any images of them for Babylon).
Many of the light walkers appear to be given an "open-top" variant, with some new weapon systems.
There also appear to be new variants of Medium and Heavy walkers.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
Its an aesthetic thing, but my problem is that they seem to reuse sculpts very, very often.
Why, for instance, are new Infantry 1, Axis units using identical poses as the later Axis Zombie models?
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Post by: Scott
Yes, they do seem to reuse poses/sculpts often.
Why? To annoy you! On a mostly serious not - I imagine to save on production costs... 'so the savings can be passed to you!'
Not really serious, sorry, but I can't help it - if you are looking for truly unique sculpts for every grunt and variant thereof, I'd recommend a different game.
However, if you like the setting, relatively low cost, and generally tight rule-set, I'd stick with Dust.
I'm not knocking your concerns, I just don't believe those particular issues will ever be addressed by Dust Studios for the forseeable future - it is just not that high on their list of priorities, since everything available is "good enough".
These are my personal opinions.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
Oh, i'm not going anywhere as a fan. :-p
Reused sculpts are only a pet peeve because I own every single release for all three factions to date. As such, I am used to it. Stuff like the "Hellboys" being identical sculpts to a unit in the original/revised core set, but which had different stats. :-p
In a couple cases, i'm pretty sure I own four identical sculpts that came with four entirely different squads, and even in one case, across factions. :-p
That said, the cost has always been low, the quality high, and tons of my stuff also doubles as "Not 40k" models. :-p Namely SSU Tanks that can easily become Leman Russ' at half the cost or less.
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Post by: Twelvecarpileup
My one thought with this kickstarter is "why didn't we see a new faction"? That would have been huge and could have easily brought in far more money.
Dust really needs a fourth faction (Aliens, Japanese). I know we're somewhat limited by the story containing three blocs.
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
A fourth faction would get me more likely to want to add a significant chunk more than I have currently pledged.
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Post by: Starfarer
 Twelvecarpileup wrote:My one thought with this kickstarter is "why didn't we see a new faction"? That would have been huge and could have easily brought in far more money.
Dust really needs a fourth faction (Aliens, Japanese). I know we're somewhat limited by the story containing three blocs.
With the success(and quicker release schedule due to funding) we're very likely to see The Japanese sooner rather than later. Likely via another kickstarter this Fall.
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Post by: Twelvecarpileup
Dust Battlefield rules are out:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/duststudio/dust-operation-babylon/posts/864114
Thoughts?
Seems like a really basic wargame to me... not sure if I want to jump from warfare to this quite yet.
Automatically Appended Next Post:  Starfarer wrote: Twelvecarpileup wrote:My one thought with this kickstarter is "why didn't we see a new faction"? That would have been huge and could have easily brought in far more money.
Dust really needs a fourth faction (Aliens, Japanese). I know we're somewhat limited by the story containing three blocs.
With the success(and quicker release schedule due to funding) we're very likely to see The Japanese sooner rather than later. Likely via another kickstarter this Fall.
Probably, but I think they would have been better off releasing a new faction before these African themed units. A new faction could have revitalized it more then this kickstarter. Don't have a problem with what we're seeing, but I just think they would have been better off with a new faction first.
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Post by: KalashnikovMarine
Should maybe start a new thread for the Battlefields rule set?
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Post by: Starfarer
Twelvecarpileup wrote:
Probably, but I think they would have been better off releasing a new faction before these African themed units. A new faction could have revitalized it more then this kickstarter. Don't have a problem with what we're seeing, but I just think they would have been better off with a new faction first.
I don't disagree. However, Babylon was already announced and people were expecting it. Dust needs a 4th faction for sure. I've held off on starting an Allies or SSU army waiting for the Japanese to be released, so believe me, I want them to come out as soon as possible! As I said, I'm guessing the success of this Kickstarter will lead to more. I think they can maintain more interest this way, as well as accelerate the release schedule. It is really win-win for Dust Studios and the players.
As for this Kickstarter, it is almost to the tipping point of good enough deal to jump in for the army deal even though I don't have much interest in the basic Axis troops for Babylon. I do want just about everything else though. Just waiting to see if that $275k unlock is indeed a quad-laser heavy walker the silhouette seems to indicate. If it is, I'm in.
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Post by: gunslingerpro
It seems some of the 'Kickstarter' models have hit Miniature Market
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Post by: scarletsquig
^ And at a 30% discount. Nice!
Anyone know what international delivery from Miniaturemarket is like?
The prices in that store are fantastic and they stock other niche non-miniature stuff I buy as well (complete MLP CCG range!).
Edit: Even with shipping, a lot of stuff on there works out way cheaper than buying in the UK. Customs is the only wildcard though, could randomly make it more expensive since I've heard of import fees being as high as 33%. /:
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
These are the numbers (for the UK) to keep in mind
The 'safe' zone (you can easily figure out possible costs)
£15.01 to £135 (calculated from exchange rate on the day of arrival)
◾ No customs duty
◾ Import VAT due on goods + postage (20% unless it's a paper book which is vat free)
◾Collection fee £8 from RM, couriers can be more
The 'complicated zone'
£135.01 and greater (calculated from exchange rate on the day of arrival)
◾ Import VAT due on goods + postage (20% unless it's a paper book which is vat free)
◾ Collection fee £8 from RM, couriers can be more
◾ Customs duty due, but . complicated and hard to figure out, 'human' figures attract different rates than 'non-human', boardgames are zero rated, but some boardgames aren't classified as boardgames etc. waived if the amount calculated due is less than £9
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Post by: Schmapdi
Ouch - it's one thing if some products hit retail before the backers get them.
It's another if they hit retail before the KS is even over.
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Post by: frozenwastes
Schmapdi wrote:Ouch - it's one thing if some products hit retail before the backers get them.
It's another if they hit retail before the KS is even over.
This project was about accelerating the release of a product line that was going to be made anyway, so I'm going to guess that the ones that are releasing now were going to release now KS or no.
It is funny though.
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Post by: Alpharius
I'm pretty sure that all of these miniatures were going to be released via retail chains in a rather timely fashion anyway.
This is one silly 'Kickstarter'!
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Post by: KalashnikovMarine
Schmapdi wrote:Ouch - it's one thing if some products hit retail before the backers get them.
It's another if they hit retail before the KS is even over.
That model was in stores before the KS even started. gak I think it was around under Fantasy Flight too... I'd guess it's just thematic to include it with the armies.
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Post by: rich1231
Sining wrote: Azazelx wrote:PomWallaby wrote:I was suckered in by the Early Bird pledge levels (again). A free mini is a free mini but it is all too easy to slap some Early Bird deals on a project for an early spike and call a project a success.
All this Dust Kickstarter has shown me so far is just how many good deals are already out there for Dust. (Without the Kickstarter Risk).
I am going to take a rain check on this and come back in 30 days.
Oldest retail trick in the book.
Reminds me of a local FLGS retailer. He had a large travel-luggage style figure case for $220, and offers a flat 10% on all his products.
When I went to the manufacturer's website to see where else they're sold, I noticed that their MSRRP for those cases was $200....
Better than the cafeteria shop at my friends workplace. Where they sold 1 puff for 30 cents and 3 for 1 dollar. And people still bought the 1 dollar option -_-
You know in situations like that its possible the MSRRP has gone up and no one has told the retailer. This industry is astoundingly poor for product management information from manufacturers. By astoundingly poor I mean mind boggling in how poor it can be. Just to add, Bfront are one of the better in this industry but some manufacturers seem to want to keep their product information a secret.
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Post by: Starfarer
Schmapdi wrote:Ouch - it's one thing if some products hit retail before the backers get them.
It's another if they hit retail before the KS is even over.
There are no exclusive items in this kickstarter, aside from different colored dice and stuff like that. NOthing in this kickstarter is about giving backers something other can't get. It's about accelerating the release of the entire campaign, rather than having it stretch out over a longer period of time.
That Jadgluther has been available from Dust Studios for years in a resin kit and has been out on Warstore for over a month. Now the variant kits for the Jadgleopold and Jadgwotan are new and coming out with this kickstarter.
Alpharius wrote:I'm pretty sure that all of these miniatures were going to be released via retail chains in a rather timely fashion anyway.
This is one silly 'Kickstarter'!
That's not really the case. They are already into releases for the second North Africa campaign(Babylon being the first) so this has pushed the release schedule 9-12 months going off of the previous release time frames. This also serves to get us that much closer to the release of the Japanese faction, which Dust studios is already dropping hints and teases of in the kickstarter comments.
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Post by: Wayniac
So this might not be the right place to ask this but is Dust a board game or a miniatures game? It looks pretty neat as an alternative-WW2 style game, but like I can't find a lot of information regarding what type of game it is. It'd be pretty neat I think as an actual Miniatures game, a la Bolt Action, but it seems like it's something kinda like the old Battletech where you have a little battle map to play games with (and could buy more that I recall), but later you can "graduate" to a table and terrain later if you want.
Might have to check it out; seems like it'd be a good way to play a WW2 style game without the constraints of history.
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Post by: NTRabbit
WayneTheGame wrote:So this might not be the right place to ask this but is Dust a board game or a miniatures game? It looks pretty neat as an alternative-WW2 style game, but like I can't find a lot of information regarding what type of game it is. It'd be pretty neat I think as an actual Miniatures game, a la Bolt Action, but it seems like it's something kinda like the old Battletech where you have a little battle map to play games with (and could buy more that I recall), but later you can "graduate" to a table and terrain later if you want.
Might have to check it out; seems like it'd be a good way to play a WW2 style game without the constraints of history.
It looks like Dust Tactics is a board game, and Dust Battlefield is a miniatures game, with the kind of graduation from a grid map to a table and terrain but using the same miniatures and a few shared base rules that you're talking about. At least that's how it was described on BoW anyway.
I'm still interested, but holding fire for now.
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Post by: Alpharius
Same here.
Something just seems 'off' or 'wrong' with this KS.
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Post by: warboss
Agreed. Other campaigns are criticized for just being glorified preorders but this one takes it another step further and is partly just a glorified "order" for stuff you can already get apparently.
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Post by: Starfarer
WayneTheGame wrote:So this might not be the right place to ask this but is Dust a board game or a miniatures game? It looks pretty neat as an alternative-WW2 style game, but like I can't find a lot of information regarding what type of game it is. It'd be pretty neat I think as an actual Miniatures game, a la Bolt Action, but it seems like it's something kinda like the old Battletech where you have a little battle map to play games with (and could buy more that I recall), but later you can "graduate" to a table and terrain later if you want.
Might have to check it out; seems like it'd be a good way to play a WW2 style game without the constraints of history.
Dust Tactics is a grid based miniature game. It falls somewhere between miniatures boardgame and a wargame. Tactics:Battlefield uses the same core rules, but removes the grid and it is just played on a table and has some advanced rules. Terrain can be used in both. Tactics sets will come with 2D terrain on the grids or as separate card tiles. You can buy the 3D terrain or use your own. Both rules sets are contained in the 2nd edition rules which are on pre-order and release next month. You can get free downloads of the rules on the Dust website right now though: http://www.dust-tactics.com/Gaming/tabid/90/entryid/187/Default.aspx
edit: Also forgot to talk about the expansions. So new units and scenarios are released via campaign expansions. These add new units, which all have their rules on unit cards which come with every model in the box. The expansions aren't necessary to play or use the new models, but they do allow you to run a campaign or just play new scenarios. These typically are rolled out in waves over several months to a year. This kickstarter is basically to allow them to splash release the whole campaign at once, rather than releasing over an extended period. I think this is generally well received among the current Dust community, as we get everything sooner as opposed to having to wait like we have in the past.
There is also a separate game using the Dust models called Dust Warfare. This has a separate rulebook and expansion books. You can buy Warfare unit cards now and skip the expansion purchases I believe, although you may need Zverograd for the SSU. Anyway, this play a little more like 40k or similar scaled wargames. It is supposed to be really good, and was designed in part by Andy Chambers. I have the rulebook but haven't read it thoroughly or played it yet, so my knowledge of this is a bit limited. Since Fantasy Flight Games has the rights to Warfare until their current stock runs out, and Battlefront has the rights to Tactics, there is a bit of uncertainty on how it will continue, although BF does produce cards for every unit released, so it is supported in that regard. However, it may become the case the Tactics: Battlefield eventually replaces Warfare.
There is also a Tabletop RPG called Dust Adventures in the works that will use the same models, and the rules are being developed by Modiphius Entertainment: http://www.modiphius.com/dust-adventures.html
If you are looking to get started with the game and wanted to get 2 forces to lure friends in or just for your own use, I think the best way is to do the following. You can currently get the starter sets on Miniature Market for 30% off, so $35. These include 1 hero, 2 units and 1 walker each, as well as a paper mat for Tactics and a starter rulebook. You can also do the New Recruit option in the kickstarter that has the rulebook, 1 hero, 1 walker and 1 unit for 2 factions of your choice. If you combined this with 2 starter sets, you're going to have 2 decent armies and a hardcopy of the rules for under $200.
Lastly, their are a lot of people who "Dustify" existing 28mm WW2 vehicles for use in Tactics and people make unit cards for them online. So if you're looking to go slightly sci-fi instead of Zombies, war gorillas and lasers level sci-fi, it can be done fairly easily.
Needless to say, I'm a pretty big fan of it. If you have any other questions, I'll try to answer them if I can.
 warboss wrote:
Agreed. Other campaigns are criticized for just being glorified preorders but this one takes it another step further and is partly just a glorified "order" for stuff you can already get apparently.
That's quite a bit of an exaggeration. One unit can be purchased that came out within the last month as part of the Babylon expansion. It's core chassis an a single weapon variant at that. All other variants are only available through the kickstarter. So that's kind of like saying a SM Stalker isn't a new unit because a Rhino already exists.
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Post by: KalashnikovMarine
One item is all the KS being out at retail?
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Post by: warboss
Starfarer wrote:That's quite a bit of an exaggeration. One unit can be purchased that came out within the last month as part of the Babylon expansion. It's core chassis an a single weapon variant at that. All other variants are only available through the kickstarter. So that's kind of like saying a SM Stalker isn't a new unit because a Rhino already exists.
You forgot to add the all important "so far" to all of your sentences. It is a bit naive to think that a company that is using kickstarter to sell an EXISTING product (which is technically against the website's rules) even in one case wouldn't do so again. Also, weren't online retailers preselling (or even just selling... don't recall) the same kits as in the kickstarter for cheaper as reported earlier in this thread? I'll admit that I follow this peripherally but the whole campaign from day 1 has persistently had a fishy odor from the subpar "deals" to the attitude in posts and now to select "kickstarted" items already being available.
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Post by: scarletsquig
 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:These are the numbers (for the UK) to keep in mind
The 'safe' zone (you can easily figure out possible costs)
£15.01 to £135 (calculated from exchange rate on the day of arrival)
◾ No customs duty
◾ Import VAT due on goods + postage (20% unless it's a paper book which is vat free)
◾Collection fee £8 from RM, couriers can be more
The 'complicated zone'
£135.01 and greater (calculated from exchange rate on the day of arrival)
◾ Import VAT due on goods + postage (20% unless it's a paper book which is vat free)
◾ Collection fee £8 from RM, couriers can be more
◾ Customs duty due, but . complicated and hard to figure out, 'human' figures attract different rates than 'non-human', boardgames are zero rated, but some boardgames aren't classified as boardgames etc. waived if the amount calculated due is less than £9
Thanks for the info, 20% VAT on item+shipping really does murder a good deal. Interesting to know about paper books being VAT-free though, think I'll be making a few barnes and noble orders for stuff with that in mind.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
Shipping is the big hit for books,
I used to buy loads from B&N when it was cheaper, but now it's mainly better to go to Amazon.co.uk
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Post by: Starfarer
warboss wrote:
You forgot to add the all important "so far" to all of your sentences. It is a bit naive to think that a company that is using kickstarter to sell an EXISTING product (which is technically against the website's rules) even in one case wouldn't do so again. Also, weren't online retailers preselling (or even just selling... don't recall) the same kits as in the kickstarter for cheaper as reported earlier in this thread? I'll admit that I follow this peripherally but the whole campaign from day 1 has persistently had a fishy odor from the subpar "deals" to the attitude in posts and now to select "kickstarted" items already being available.
OK, so just to clarify, the only kit currently available for purchase that is in the Kickstarter(aside from the new rulebook, which is on pre-sale and can be purchased as an add-on or as part of the starter set deal on Kickstarter) is the Jagdluther Axis walker. This kit has been available for pre-sale on Warstore for the past month maybe and I think just became available to ship a week or so back. This model was the first wave of the Babylon campaign, so technically it is part of the Babylon Kickstarter; it is the first model of Wave 1.
Now Dust campaign expansions generally come out in 3-5 waves over several months, I think in some cases up to a year. So you aren't really wrong that all these models are existing models, we've seen photos of a number of these things for several months(some date back to GenCon 2013 I believe), some have not been seen outside this Kickstarter. Everything in this campaign was coming out anyway. All the $50,000 the goal was for was to pay for the production costs to get enough units produced to launch all at once. Otherwise, they would wait on Wave 1 to generate enough money to move on to Wave 2 and so on. Admittedly, I was a bit skeptical of this idea, but I really just prefer a quicker turn around on this stuff so we can have the models and the rules out now. A lot of us existing Dust players have been clamoring for the 2nd edition rules and the new cards and kits for about a year, so this is awesome we're getting everything by end of summer now.
If all you're looking for is a models by the shovel-full at a ridiculously low price, this Kickstarter probably isn't for you. This isn't Myth. They also didn't set their goal for that in the first place either. That said, at $150+ you currently get about over $100 worth of free stuff, so it isn't like it's just a pre-sale at retail prices either. Frankly I'm backing because there's enough free stuff to be a better deal than me waiting and buying at 30% off from Miniature Market.
And to your question about discounted items being less than Kickstarter prices, yes, since Miniature Market has always sold Dust Tactics at 30% off, that includes the new stuff. So since the Jagdluther has been released, it is 30% off. The Kickstarter items are roughly 10% off individually, but cheaper in the bundles.
Nothing about any of this is unusual. It seems you are looking for a scandal where it simply isn't.
scarletsquig wrote:
Thanks for the info, 20% VAT on item+shipping really does murder a good deal. Interesting to know about paper books being VAT-free though, think I'll be making a few barnes and noble orders for stuff with that in mind.
If you are going through Miniature Market, it may make more sense to order a few smaller orders that bypass any customs duties. Not sure how practical that is, but might be worth looking in to.
Another thing to note for the Kickstarter, is that if you have an FLGS that stocks Battlefront products, you can have them call their Battlefront rep and place a Kickstarter pledge for you and they will ship your items direct to your FLGS for free. This works for North America, EU and AUS/NZ. This allows you to avoid shipping charges AND any potential customs duties.
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Post by: KalashnikovMarine
Starfarer wrote:
And to your question about discounted items being less than Kickstarter prices, yes, since Miniature Market has always sold Dust Tactics at 30% off, that includes the new stuff. So since the Jadgluther has been released, it is 30% off. The Kickstarter items are roughly 10% off individually, but cheaper in the bundles.
Knowing Battlefront's discounting policy, I would not be surprised to see Miniature Market's discounting scheme for dust change very soon.
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Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim?
KalashnikovMarine wrote: Starfarer wrote:
And to your question about discounted items being less than Kickstarter prices, yes, since Miniature Market has always sold Dust Tactics at 30% off, that includes the new stuff. So since the Jadgluther has been released, it is 30% off. The Kickstarter items are roughly 10% off individually, but cheaper in the bundles.
Knowing Battlefront's discounting policy, I would not be surprised to see Miniature Market's discounting scheme for dust change very soon.
From what I've gathered from the KS comments section, BF has no control over Miniature Market's prices - MM seem to be working independently of Battlefront's distribution scheme. BF sounded fairly pissed about it.
~Tim?
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Post by: Azazelx
rich1231 wrote: Azazelx wrote:
Oldest retail trick in the book.
Reminds me of a local FLGS retailer. He had a large travel-luggage style figure case for $220, and offers a flat 10% on all his products.
When I went to the manufacturer's website to see where else they're sold, I noticed that their MSRRP for those cases was $200....
You know in situations like that its possible the MSRRP has gone up and no one has told the retailer. This industry is astoundingly poor for product management information from manufacturers. By astoundingly poor I mean mind boggling in how poor it can be. Just to add, Bfront are one of the better in this industry but some manufacturers seem to want to keep their product information a secret.
Uh.... Rich. You might want to read that again. The MSRP was $200 and the retailer was selling them for a claimed MSRP of $220 with a "discount" of 10% off. oh, and it was like that for months. From the time they first announced the wonderful new figure cases that he was getting in from a local supplier right until he clearance them out with a "40%" discount.
It was a matter of "we offer 10% off all products" being done by raising the "RRP" of pretty much everything that's not GW/ BF with an actual visible AURRP by 10%, then "discounting" it by 10% at the register. Just a dodgy small business practices older than any of us here.
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Post by: frozenwastes
I thought they were up front from the beginning that this Kickstarter is to accelerate their release schedule. Regardless of whether or not you have a strong opinion about what Kickstarter "should be used for" or whatever, this is probably the safest Kickstarter to date. It's all stuff that is going to get made and as a result of the KS, made sooner than originally planned.
Sure, it's "off" if you have an idea that KS should only be used to fund products that could not exist without it, but that's a very difficult standard for KS as a company to enforce.
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Post by: Jehan-reznor
 frozenwastes wrote:I thought they were up front from the beginning that this Kickstarter is to accelerate their release schedule. Regardless of whether or not you have a strong opinion about what Kickstarter "should be used for" or whatever, this is probably the safest Kickstarter to date. It's all stuff that is going to get made and as a result of the KS, made sooner than originally planned.
Sure, it's "off" if you have an idea that KS should only be used to fund products that could not exist without it, but that's a very difficult standard for KS as a company to enforce.
What i wonder is, is this KS allowed according its guidelines?
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Post by: frozenwastes
Report it and find out. I doubt it'll get cancelled or even reviewed. There's a process before the KS launches to check if it's in accordance with the guide lines or not.
I happen to think it's legit to use KS to make a project happen in a much faster timeline. Both of Reaper's KS were exactly that. Reaper had already started making 30 different Bones miniatures before their KS launched it into the hundreds.
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Post by: Azazelx
Kickstarter's guidelines are just that. Guidelines. Not hard and fast rules, nor are they laws of the land. Kickstarter can let whatever it likes through onto their website with any number of exceptions, and I understand that they also like money.
Let's not go down the "Kickstarter is only for projects that _____." road again. It's for whichever projects they approve to let run.
And I say this all as someone who doesn't especially like Battlefront, and has no interest in contributing to this particular campaign.
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Post by: frozenwastes
I completely agree. I always thought Dust was cool and like the idea of accelerating production by going to the fans. If I didn't have the backlog of unpainted stuff to work through, Dust would have gotten me as a customer, for sure.
I love weird WW2 and Dust does it really well. I'm also become more and more enamoured with slightly larger figures and the Dust infantry are just tall enough to be noticably bigger than 40k stuff.
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Post by: Alpharius
Azazelx wrote:Kickstarter's guidelines are just that. Guidelines. Not hard and fast rules, nor are they laws of the land. Kickstarter can let whatever it likes through onto their website with any number of exceptions, and I understand that they also like money.
Let's not go down the "Kickstarter is only for projects that _____." road again. It's for whichever projects they approve to let run.
And I say this all as someone who doesn't especially like Battlefront, and has no interest in contributing to this particular campaign.
Agreed!
That would just summon RhodeIslandTides, and net us another boring lecture.
Kickstarter has these somewhat vague guidelines for a reason - it allows them a certain amount of latitude to basically do whatever they want.
Plus, since this one is already at $278K with 10 more days to go, no way are they going to give up their 5 to 10 percent cut!
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Post by: Catyrpelius
Making each playable unit a separate piece is the way forward and does mean you are not just choosing one of the version you have play with. Some boxes will come with two pairs of arms or turrets and we have some two unit boxes at reduced rates coming as well but gone are the days when a single walker had four variants in the box.
This makes me sad. It was one of the biggest selling point of the original game.
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Post by: KalashnikovMarine
Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote: KalashnikovMarine wrote: Starfarer wrote:
And to your question about discounted items being less than Kickstarter prices, yes, since Miniature Market has always sold Dust Tactics at 30% off, that includes the new stuff. So since the Jadgluther has been released, it is 30% off. The Kickstarter items are roughly 10% off individually, but cheaper in the bundles.
Knowing Battlefront's discounting policy, I would not be surprised to see Miniature Market's discounting scheme for dust change very soon.
From what I've gathered from the KS comments section, BF has no control over Miniature Market's prices - MM seem to be working independently of Battlefront's distribution scheme. BF sounded fairly pissed about it.
~Tim?
Whoever they're buying from has to buy from BF at some point. If BF can't lean on MM they'll lean on their supplier.
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Post by: Alpharius
It might be a lot harder to lean on some distributors though...
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
Also lean too hard on a distributor/retailer with any of the old FFG stock in they system and they may dump it at very low prices
which both soaks up full price spending on the BF version, and sends a 'this game is dead' message to gamers who aren't following things too closely
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Post by: mikhaila
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:Also lean too hard on a distributor/retailer with any of the old FFG stock in they system and they may dump it at very low prices
which both soaks up full price spending on the BF version, and sends a 'this game is dead' message to gamers who aren't following things too closely
FFG always does a yearly sale and dumps an incredible amount of older or slower product. Want the Beowulf boardgame for 5 bucks?
At some point the older dust product will go this route.
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Post by: Twelvecarpileup
It basically comes down to: Does this seem like a decent deal to you?
Looking at the current stretch goals, it looks slightly cheaper for me then retail. Plus it helps the company directly support a game I like. So win/win.
As for the fact that one model's out, it doesn't bother me. Kickstarter is basically a pre-order for most major mini companies...
Did Warmachine need a kickstarter? Did Super Dungeon Explorder? Bones 2?
Probably not, those were basically pre-orders. The fact that Dust seemingly has most of the models ready to go is a big plus for me.
How often have we been burned by a kickstarter? Or seen it delayed for up to a year? If they're almost ready to go then I know they'll be shipping close to the goal.
Kickstarter isn't some altruistic magical web page. It's a funding system for small-medium companies ran by a massive corporation.
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Post by: Wyrmalla
Are there much prospects for seeing any nuclear weapons in Dust? Perhaps a little off topic, but I'd be interested in seeing some man portable weapons, or larger mech versions. I'm just curious as it seems like the period where those kind of weapons could be in development, but given that alternative fuel/weapons have been found, nukes may have fallen by the sidelines. I've hardly played the game, so this matter may already have been handled in the fluff, and well, hell I'm just looking for another Dust model to throw in with my Fallout stuff really, but it'd be nice to know. 
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Post by: warboss
What would be the point? Even at only a few kilotons, a man portable nuke at the DUST scale of battle would be the equivalent of just flipping over the gaming mat and calling the game a draw.
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Post by: Wyrmalla
Ah, I'm meaning more in the fluff, but as far as games go why couldn't they just scale down the weapons to something much smaller? A nuke mixed with the alien tech would be an interesting prospect for the fluff, but perhaps nuclear weapons would put an end to the style of warfare going on in the series right now (I mean great you have fancy mechs, but what use are those against a single plane that can glass the place). I suppose there's ways to defend against that kind of attack in Dust, but I'm guessing the subject's been avoided as it would just unbalance everything.
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Post by: KalashnikovMarine
 mikhaila wrote: OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:Also lean too hard on a distributor/retailer with any of the old FFG stock in they system and they may dump it at very low prices
which both soaks up full price spending on the BF version, and sends a 'this game is dead' message to gamers who aren't following things too closely
FFG always does a yearly sale and dumps an incredible amount of older or slower product. Want the Beowulf boardgame for 5 bucks?
At some point the older dust product will go this route.
They already did.
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
I'm holding out for a 4th of July sale.
I'm thinking they've had them before, right?
I'll say this about Tactics- with a bit of guidance and early game hand-holding, I was able to get a pretty random selection of 7 and 8 year olds pretty well into the thick of things.
Are the new Tactics rules going to be about roughly the same?
For the Warfare/ Battlefield rules, do I at least get to spread my squads out? I wasn't a big fan of having everyone all clumped up in one square. I would assume you could to avoid area attacks. I'll have to see about printing some out when I get home.
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Post by: Moopy
 Jehan-reznor wrote: frozenwastes wrote:I thought they were up front from the beginning that this Kickstarter is to accelerate their release schedule. Regardless of whether or not you have a strong opinion about what Kickstarter "should be used for" or whatever, this is probably the safest Kickstarter to date. It's all stuff that is going to get made and as a result of the KS, made sooner than originally planned.
Sure, it's "off" if you have an idea that KS should only be used to fund products that could not exist without it, but that's a very difficult standard for KS as a company to enforce.
What i wonder is, is this KS allowed according its guidelines?
Bring up the Kickstarter Report Menu.
Trying and find something this Kickstarter violates according to the list of violations so you can complete the action.
Close it because you can't.
Move on folks.
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Post by: KalashnikovMarine
highlord tamburlaine wrote:
I'll say this about Tactics- with a bit of guidance and early game hand-holding, I was able to get a pretty random selection of 7 and 8 year olds pretty well into the thick of things.
Are the new Tactics rules going to be about roughly the same?
For the Warfare/ Battlefield rules, do I at least get to spread my squads out? I wasn't a big fan of having everyone all clumped up in one square. I would assume you could to avoid area attacks. I'll have to see about printing some out when I get home.
The game is fast and simple enough for kids, with the stuff ready to go right out of the box, but I know the guys I work with are all playing and enjoying it too. Honestly this is the tabletop game we all probably should have started with when we were 10, and it's the game I'd recommend to a new player who didn't already have friends into a game, or a strong interest in a specific game or background, e.g. the kid is huge into WW2 (Flames of War is over yonder youngster!)
Battlefield is a proper table top, so dispersion's a thing, I don't remember what the command distance is for coherency on a given squad though.
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Post by: UltraPrime
Dropped out. Decided Orks more important...
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Post by: Catyrpelius
According to Kicktraq your not the only one...
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Post by: Twelvecarpileup
highlord tamburlaine wrote:
For the Warfare/ Battlefield rules, do I at least get to spread my squads out? I wasn't a big fan of having everyone all clumped up in one square. I would assume you could to avoid area attacks. I'll have to see about printing some out when I get home.
Warfare is within six inches of the squad leader I believe.
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Post by: Starfarer
I dropped mine from $170 to $1 for now. I can still pledge $150+ with a $1 pledge level and get all the free add-ons. Basically it keeps me from being tied into a specific lot and I can just buy what I want.
Besides, once they show the actual models of the new Mercenaries faction they teased in the Backer emails, people are going to start backing like crazy.
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Post by: Ernster
Well miniature market increased their Battlefront Dust Tactics miniature. Not by much but an increase nonetheless.
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Post by: SilverMK2
Just went in for $150 of Germans. Annoyed that there are none of the early birds left (he says with 8 days to go... but I pledged within about 20 minutes of seeing the KS, so  ).
Not so fussed about the rules - just love the models.
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Post by: Azazelx
Looks like Paelo's girls to me. Underboob, ahoy!
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