I'm sure dedicated WS players will also suprise us with some fun tricks. but yeah GW's had this odd idea about white scars for awhile in that they keep wanting to make them a melee army.
The White Scars are probably the least respected Chapter with regards to rules/army builds. There is room in 40K for a "bike army" (outside of Custodes). Bikes for troops, loads of special rules, etc. So much potential and it's never been realized. I think this is a huge miss for the 'splash' books --- an incredibly easy way to have made X unit = troops. This also sadly means Eldar won't get it either.
Elbows wrote: The White Scars are probably the least respected Chapter with regards to rules/army builds. There is room in 40K for a "bike army" (outside of Custodes). Bikes for troops, loads of special rules, etc. So much potential and it's never been realized. I think this is a huge miss for the 'splash' books --- an incredibly easy way to have made X unit = troops. This also sadly means Eldar won't get it either.
Eldar windriders as troops was a scourge on balance for several editions. Only recently are they more balanced compared to every other biker unit in the game, and they are still decently strong.
Before they were 1 cannon/3 bikes and losing a few models meant whole squad runs to edge of the board at full move or something like that. Together with joined Autarch sometimes, which was p. hilarious.
The only way you could win with all bike Eldar army was mostly about scoring objectives and hoping you won't die.
Before they were 1 cannon/3 bikes and losing a few models meant whole squad runs to edge of the board at full move or something like that. Together with joined Autarch sometimes, which was p. hilarious.
The only way you could win with all bike Eldar army was mostly about scoring objectives and hoping you won't die.
Exactly. Anyone saying they weren't balanced forgets they existed before 7th edition happened.
Elbows wrote: The White Scars are probably the least respected Chapter with regards to rules/army builds. There is room in 40K for a "bike army" (outside of Custodes). Bikes for troops, loads of special rules, etc. So much potential and it's never been realized. I think this is a huge miss for the 'splash' books --- an incredibly easy way to have made X unit = troops. This also sadly means Eldar won't get it either.
Then again white scars aren't fluff wise bike army. Their absolute core is wait for it...tactical marine! The guy on foot(and rhino). Not one with bike.q
Dudeface wrote: Parity. Death guard and thousand sons are as divergent fluff wise as emperors children. Currently you would have capacity for:
Fulgrim
Lucius
Doomrider
Noise marines
Fabius Bile
Kakophoni (heavy sonic weapons)
The reject experiment marines
Sonic dreads
Subjugators could be repurposed into here
Plus any shared units.
Why do you want "parity" only for Chaos legions? Why can you not see that I want inter-factional parity also?
Dudeface wrote: All previous existing kits or entries, what speed freaks units are missing?
What would there be capacity for, you mean?
Wazzdakka Gutsmek
Speedlord Supreme Krooldakka
Zagboss Skargrim
Jazgob
Warboss on Bike
Big Mek on Bike (KFF and SAG versions, as well as standard)
Painboy on Bike
Boar Boyz (could be a Snakebite codex instead, or both)
Weirdboy Battle Tower
Speedstas
Battle Fortress
Cyborks
To be fair I'd take a supplement but I don't see why one faction deserves sub faction specific codexes and another does not.
Brian888 wrote: It's a fair question. Putting aside real-world economic reasons why the DG and TS got their own codexes, the fluff basically says that they need their own codexes because they are substantially different in structure and operation from the other Traitor Legions.
And Evil Sunz are portrayed as completely different to Goffs and completely different to Snakebites in terms of structure etc in the lore. This isn't a Legion or a Marine only phenomenon.
The big issue here and I promise to drop the topic after this, is that you're still comparing apples to oranges.
If you'd said they deserve the same treatment as farsight enclaves, who are a minor divergence from the main codex rules wise and historically are given their own books/rules, then you'd have a point.
Speed freaks are lists based around speed, so bikers, uggies, trucks, battlewagons etc. Which form the core of their forces. All things that already exist with modern kits. The list of units you gave were mostly generic hq's.
Weird boy battle tower - not clan specific, gw painted them as bad moons and goffs
Battlefortress - not clan specific historically, gw paintscheme was goffs
Cyborks - not clan specific historically, also doesn't fit the theme
Boar boyz - snakebite specific
Speedstas - not clan specific
There is no reason why orks can't have codex supplements and I'd welcome them. There is a difference between a faction that can't represent itself properly on the tabletop, due to not having a single core unit and one who is missing afew hq's. A closer comparison would be if people asked for a flesh tearers book.
On topic - money is on the avatar for next week, although knowing GW and their love for doing things in 3's I'd not be shocked if we see something of what has the eldar under threat instead.
Howling Banshees and Incubi... and it'd be nice if Jain Zar and Drazhar came with them.
Remember a big part of this first bit is the Eldar fighting each other. It'd be great if Harlequins and Ynnari got some new units to flesh out their forces a bit as well. I think that'd really get people's attention.
There is apparently a threath they dont se even as they stare in to oblivion. Also the prophecy has lots of paralells to the great fall and birth of she who thirsts.
I suppose ynnari was really a trick of Slaanesh after all. What other threat would they be blind to?
Surely, the feud between aeldari factions dont qualify for such doomsayings.
Fayric wrote: So, do anyone care about the prophecy at all?
There is apparently a threath they dont se even as they stare in to oblivion. Also the prophecy has lots of paralells to the great fall and birth of she who thirsts.
I suppose ynnari was really a trick of Slaanesh after all. What other threat would they be blind to?
Surely, the feud between aeldari factions dont qualify for such doomsayings.
Jidmah wrote: Why would you want supplement books for the ork codex?
So I can play my clan as it is supposed to be played without completely hamstringing myself so neither my opponent nor me has a good time?
To shake up the meta?
To add more variety to the two primary Ork competitive builds?
Take your pick.
And what exactly do you expect the supplement book to do except charging you extra money for what is basically the vigilus detachment plus what's already in the codex?
Do you really expect it will suck less just because you paid premium for yet another book?
Go ask all the white scars players sitting on their biker armies how well that worked for them.
I think I'll go ask the Iron Hands players how happy they are with their supplement actually.
I think it will potentially 'suck less' (as in, give me the ability to field my army in the way it's actually portrayed) because it will allow a focused set of rules and stratagems bespoke to my clan that should play very differently from a 'standard' Ork green tide.
I expect much more than a Vigilus type detachment. The supplements have had a codex worth of stratagems bespoke to the chapter and 2 sets of relics each.
Jidmah wrote: Why would you want supplement books for the ork codex?
So I can play my clan as it is supposed to be played without completely hamstringing myself so neither my opponent nor me has a good time?
To shake up the meta?
To add more variety to the two primary Ork competitive builds?
Take your pick.
And what exactly do you expect the supplement book to do except charging you extra money for what is basically the vigilus detachment plus what's already in the codex?
Do you really expect it will suck less just because you paid premium for yet another book?
Go ask all the white scars players sitting on their biker armies how well that worked for them.
Speaking of Orks, I think Vigilus worked really well for them. The competitive/tournament Ork armies NOT running a Dread Waaagh are far and few between.
That said, it's a campaign book. There'll be story, linked campaign missions and other goodies.
Also it'll have updated rules for Banshees (including a Ynnari-Banshee variant) and Incubi at the very least.
If there're a few new Strats or Relics and/or possibly even a Doctrine-equivalent for running mono-Craftworld/Drukhari/Harlequins/Ynnari, that'd just be icing on the cake.
Sunny Side Up wrote: Speaking of Orks, I think Vigilus worked really well for them. The competitive/tournament Ork armies NOT running a Dread Waaagh are far and few between.
I wouldn't call one relic+stratagem so good that it is a must-take next to two utterly two useless detachments "worked well".
Dudeface wrote: Parity. Death guard and thousand sons are as divergent fluff wise as emperors children. Currently you would have capacity for:
Fulgrim
Lucius
Doomrider
Noise marines
Fabius Bile
Kakophoni (heavy sonic weapons)
The reject experiment marines
Sonic dreads
Subjugators could be repurposed into here
Plus any shared units.
Why do you want "parity" only for Chaos legions? Why can you not see that I want inter-factional parity also?
Dudeface wrote: All previous existing kits or entries, what speed freaks units are missing?
What would there be capacity for, you mean?
Wazzdakka Gutsmek
Speedlord Supreme Krooldakka
Zagboss Skargrim
Jazgob
Warboss on Bike
Big Mek on Bike (KFF and SAG versions, as well as standard)
Painboy on Bike
Boar Boyz (could be a Snakebite codex instead, or both)
Weirdboy Battle Tower
Speedstas
Battle Fortress
Cyborks
To be fair I'd take a supplement but I don't see why one faction deserves sub faction specific codexes and another does not.
Brian888 wrote: It's a fair question. Putting aside real-world economic reasons why the DG and TS got their own codexes, the fluff basically says that they need their own codexes because they are substantially different in structure and operation from the other Traitor Legions.
And Evil Sunz are portrayed as completely different to Goffs and completely different to Snakebites in terms of structure etc in the lore. This isn't a Legion or a Marine only phenomenon.
The big issue here and I promise to drop the topic after this, is that you're still comparing apples to oranges.
If you'd said they deserve the same treatment as farsight enclaves, who are a minor divergence from the main codex rules wise and historically are given their own books/rules, then you'd have a point.
Speed freaks are lists based around speed, so bikers, uggies, trucks, battlewagons etc. Which form the core of their forces. All things that already exist with modern kits. The list of units you gave were mostly generic hq's.
Weird boy battle tower - not clan specific, gw painted them as bad moons and goffs
Battlefortress - not clan specific historically, gw paintscheme was goffs
Cyborks - not clan specific historically, also doesn't fit the theme
Boar boyz - snakebite specific
Speedstas - not clan specific
There is no reason why orks can't have codex supplements and I'd welcome them. There is a difference between a faction that can't represent itself properly on the tabletop, due to not having a single core unit and one who is missing afew hq's. A closer comparison would be if people asked for a flesh tearers books.
They are exactly the same thing.
Your list has no unique units either, excluding special characters.
Noise marines - not EC specific
Kakophoni (heavy sonic weapons) - not EC specific
The reject experiment marines - not EC specific
Sonic dreads - not EC specific, weapon option
Subjugators could be repurposed into here - not EC specific
I'm genuinely amazed you think there's a difference here.
As far as I'm concerned EC can represent themselves perfectly on the tabletop, their hallmark unit is the noise marine that exists and can be taken in an EC force. The other units they use are the same as CSM and hence why they belong in the same book. EC are about as unique as Evil Sunz, if not less so.
What you want is for EC to get the TS/DG treatment simply because they have had it. You want a raft of new units with a focus on the Legion and your justification is that your faction can't represent itself 'properly on the tabletop. Which I don't mind by the way. What I find incredible is the fact that you think this is any different or any more justified than my clan (sub faction, exactly like EC) getting exactly the same treatment.
Sunny Side Up wrote: Speaking of Orks, I think Vigilus worked really well for them. The competitive/tournament Ork armies NOT running a Dread Waaagh are far and few between.
I wouldn't call one relic+stratagem so good that it is a must-take next to two utterly two useless detachments "worked well".
Agreed. The Dread Waaaaaggghh relic is a crutch to be honest and the other detachments (there were 3, lest we forget the epic fail that is the Stompa Mob) are a complete waste of the paper they are printed on.
Go ask all the white scars players sitting on their biker armies how well that worked for them.
I think I'll go ask the Iron Hands players how happy they are with their supplement actually.
I think it will potentially 'suck less' (as in, give me the ability to field my army in the way it's actually portrayed) because it will allow a focused set of rules and stratagems bespoke to my clan that should play very differently from a 'standard' Ork green tide.
I expect much more than a Vigilus type detachment. The supplements have had a codex worth of stratagems bespoke to the chapter and 2 sets of relics each.
Well I hope you love painting checkers, because Goff might be our Iron Hands.
You also need to pay 25 GBP for your codex 17.50 for your Evil Suns book which is best used with walkers, boyz and MANz, and then another 17.50 to get access to the Goff relics and stratagems, which are mind-blowing good and use bikes as their core, plus another 17.50 for the Freebootas book because Flash Gits and Badrukk are gone from the main codex, for a grand total of 77.50 to just keep playing your army. Then Goff get a nerf and you need to shell out another 17.50 to switch to Bad Moons.
So, I'm asking again, why would you want GW to split our codex into eight books for a ~50% chance (marines are 2 hit 2 miss right now) to fix problems instead of just fixing the issues (or failing to do so) in one codex?
Contrary to popular believe, GW's rules don't get better because they spread them across more books.
Fayric wrote: So, do anyone care about the prophecy at all?
There is apparently a threath they dont se even as they stare in to oblivion. Also the prophecy has lots of paralells to the great fall and birth of she who thirsts.
I suppose ynnari was really a trick of Slaanesh after all. What other threat would they be blind to?
Surely, the feud between aeldari factions dont qualify for such doomsayings.
Seems like every other bland "we're totally screwed but for a tiny chance we're not" prophecy in 40k. Which is a lot of them.
Agreed. The Dread Waaaaaggghh relic is a crutch to be honest and the other detachments (there were 3, lest we forget the epic fail that is the Stompa Mob) are a complete waste of the paper they are printed on.
Sounds like some seriously entitled whining.
If the Dread Waaagh is a „crutch“, it‘s still lightyears ahead of what literally every faction got out of that book with the possible exception of GSC and Guard.
Space Wolves? Harlequins? Drukhari? Grey Knights? Sister? Deathwatch? Tau? Etc?
So Orks-Players get their entitled asses pampered with both a hard core competitive Option wrecking tournaments since the release and a few fun things like the Stompa Detachment for Apoc-sized weekend-fun, while most factions couldn’t be spared even a page for the latter, which you arrogantly discard as „waste“ thanks to getting stuffed in just about every way on top of well.
Ork players don’t even know what it means to have bad rules.
Well I hope you love painting checkers, because Goff might be our Iron Hands.
Despite my attempts to play as competitively as possible, I'm no meta chaser. It makes no odds to me. I'd take the White Scars book over nothing. Any day.
Jidmah wrote: You also need to pay 25 GBP for your codex
Got that already.
17.50 for your Evil Suns book which is best used with walkers, boyz and MANz,
I think you misunderstand the purpose of the Evil Sunz book.
and then another 17.50 to get access to the Goff relics and stratagems, which are mind-blowing good and use bikes as their core
This makes no sense.
plus another 17.50 for the Freebootas book because Flash Gits and Badrukk are gone from the main codex, for a grand total of 77.50 to just keep playing your army.
You're just rambling at this point and assuming a number of things that are wrong.
Then Goff get a nerf and you need to shell out another 17.50 to switch to Bad Moons.
Regardless so what? I have disposable income. Enough to buy all of those books. And if they had decent amounts of fluff, were interesting and had fun, THEMATIC rules, I'd absolutely pick them up. They're certainly more worthwhile to me than Chapter Approved.
Also did you not realise this hobby is expensive?
Jidmah wrote: So, I'm asking again, why would you want GW to split our codex into eight books for a ~50% chance (marines are 2 hit 2 miss right now) to fix problems instead of just fixing the issues (or failing to do so) in one codex?
Contrary to popular believe, GW's rules don't get better because they spread them across more books.
Because I want more Ork CONTENT dude. It's my schtick. I disagree about Marines being 50/50 hit and miss too - despite some supplements seeming better than others there is no doubt that each and every Marine sub faction has had a buff with their release. Also - buffs for playing a specific sub faction?! Yes please. More of this.
I'm also not primarily concerned with 'better' rules (as in more competitive), what I want is more thematic rules for my army. Rules that are currently missing in the main codex because it is spread too thin.
You're joking right? We're not whining - you claimed that "Vigilus worked really well for Orks" and we're correcting your misguided, wrong belief with the facts. If you consider 1 relic (for 2 CP) and a singular stratagem worth taking in a book with 4 detachments (only 3 of which I can actually use in normal games) a good investment then let me talk to you about ice, my eskimo friend.
If the Dread Waaagh is a „crutch“, it‘s still lightyears ahead of what literally every faction got out of that book with the possible exception of GSC and Guard.
I mean crutch in that you can't really build a competitive list without it. It shows the weakness of the Ork codex.
Space Wolves? Harlequins? Drukhari? Grey Knights? Sister? Deathwatch? Tau? Etc?
So Orks-Players get their entitled asses pampered with both a hard core competitive Option wrecking tournaments since the release and a few fun things like the Stompa Detachment for Apoc-sized weekend-fun, while most factions couldn’t be spared even a page for the latter, which you arrogantly discard as „waste“ thanks to getting stuffed in just about every way on top of well.
Ork players don’t even know what it means to have bad rules.
Yea, it's better than nothing, no doubt. It's still not great and I wish I hadn't purchased Vigilus 1, the fluff wasn't even worth the read in the end.
Fayric wrote: So, do anyone care about the prophecy at all?
There is apparently a threath they dont se even as they stare in to oblivion. Also the prophecy has lots of paralells to the great fall and birth of she who thirsts.
I suppose ynnari was really a trick of Slaanesh after all. What other threat would they be blind to?
Surely, the feud between aeldari factions dont qualify for such doomsayings.
Honestly, I'd laugh like a drain if the Ynnari were a sneaky way to introduce Croneworld Eldar.
Fayric wrote: So, do anyone care about the prophecy at all?
There is apparently a threath they dont se even as they stare in to oblivion. Also the prophecy has lots of paralells to the great fall and birth of she who thirsts.
I suppose ynnari was really a trick of Slaanesh after all. What other threat would they be blind to?
Surely, the feud between aeldari factions dont qualify for such doomsayings.
Honestly, I'd laugh like a drain if the Ynnari were a sneaky way to introduce Croneworld Eldar.
You never know.
Both parts of the prophecy from the two articles have the same source - a 'Visionary of Alaitoc' called Ylocu Shaie. Ylocu seems to be a new character that hasn't made any significant statements before.
The prophecy also relates only to Phoenix Rising by the looks of things. Hard to say what the threat they are blind to might be? Perhaps a Tyranid threat (with the shadow of the warp representing a psychic blindness) or perhaps simply the threat of mutual destruction through civil war? Tough one.
Fayric wrote: So, do anyone care about the prophecy at all?
There is apparently a threath they dont se even as they stare in to oblivion. Also the prophecy has lots of paralells to the great fall and birth of she who thirsts.
I suppose ynnari was really a trick of Slaanesh after all. What other threat would they be blind to?
Surely, the feud between aeldari factions dont qualify for such doomsayings.
Honestly, I'd laugh like a drain if the Ynnari were a sneaky way to introduce Croneworld Eldar.
You never know.
Both parts of the prophecy from the two articles have the same source - a 'Visionary of Alaitoc' called Ylocu Shaie. Ylocu seems to be a new character that hasn't made any significant statements before.
The prophecy also relates only to Phoenix Rising by the looks of things. Hard to say what the threat they are blind to might be? Perhaps a Tyranid threat (with the shadow of the warp representing a psychic blindness) or perhaps simply the threat of mutual destruction through civil war? Tough one.
Going with the simplest answer I would say cw and ynnari at each other’s throats and de decide to attack them both.
Dudeface wrote: Parity. Death guard and thousand sons are as divergent fluff wise as emperors children. Currently you would have capacity for:
Fulgrim
Lucius
Doomrider
Noise marines
Fabius Bile
Kakophoni (heavy sonic weapons)
The reject experiment marines
Sonic dreads
Subjugators could be repurposed into here
Plus any shared units.
Why do you want "parity" only for Chaos legions? Why can you not see that I want inter-factional parity also?
Dudeface wrote: All previous existing kits or entries, what speed freaks units are missing?
What would there be capacity for, you mean?
Wazzdakka Gutsmek
Speedlord Supreme Krooldakka
Zagboss Skargrim
Jazgob
Warboss on Bike
Big Mek on Bike (KFF and SAG versions, as well as standard)
Painboy on Bike
Boar Boyz (could be a Snakebite codex instead, or both)
Weirdboy Battle Tower
Speedstas
Battle Fortress
Cyborks
To be fair I'd take a supplement but I don't see why one faction deserves sub faction specific codexes and another does not.
Brian888 wrote: It's a fair question. Putting aside real-world economic reasons why the DG and TS got their own codexes, the fluff basically says that they need their own codexes because they are substantially different in structure and operation from the other Traitor Legions.
And Evil Sunz are portrayed as completely different to Goffs and completely different to Snakebites in terms of structure etc in the lore. This isn't a Legion or a Marine only phenomenon.
The big issue here and I promise to drop the topic after this, is that you're still comparing apples to oranges.
If you'd said they deserve the same treatment as farsight enclaves, who are a minor divergence from the main codex rules wise and historically are given their own books/rules, then you'd have a point.
Speed freaks are lists based around speed, so bikers, uggies, trucks, battlewagons etc. Which form the core of their forces. All things that already exist with modern kits. The list of units you gave were mostly generic hq's.
Weird boy battle tower - not clan specific, gw painted them as bad moons and goffs
Battlefortress - not clan specific historically, gw paintscheme was goffs
Cyborks - not clan specific historically, also doesn't fit the theme
Boar boyz - snakebite specific
Speedstas - not clan specific
There is no reason why orks can't have codex supplements and I'd welcome them. There is a difference between a faction that can't represent itself properly on the tabletop, due to not having a single core unit and one who is missing afew hq's. A closer comparison would be if people asked for a flesh tearers books.
They are exactly the same thing.
Your list has no unique units either, excluding special characters.
Noise marines - not EC specific
Kakophoni (heavy sonic weapons) - not EC specific
The reject experiment marines - not EC specific
Sonic dreads - not EC specific, weapon option
Subjugators could be repurposed into here - not EC specific
I'm genuinely amazed you think there's a difference here.
As far as I'm concerned EC can represent themselves perfectly on the tabletop, their hallmark unit is the noise marine that exists and can be taken in an EC force. The other units they use are the same as CSM and hence why they belong in the same book. EC are about as unique as Evil Sunz, if not less so.
What you want is for EC to get the TS/DG treatment simply because they have had it. You want a raft of new units with a focus on the Legion and your justification is that your faction can't represent itself 'properly on the tabletop. Which I don't mind by the way. What I find incredible is the fact that you think this is any different or any more justified than my clan (sub faction, exactly like EC) getting exactly the same treatment.
Sunny Side Up wrote: Speaking of Orks, I think Vigilus worked really well for them. The competitive/tournament Ork armies NOT running a Dread Waaagh are far and few between.
I wouldn't call one relic+stratagem so good that it is a must-take next to two utterly two useless detachments "worked well".
Agreed. The Dread Waaaaaggghh relic is a crutch to be honest and the other detachments (there were 3, lest we forget the epic fail that is the Stompa Mob) are a complete waste of the paper they are printed on.
Again, I don't have nor want to play emperors children. It's not "my faction".
Happy to end the debate but I have no personal investment in a faction being fleshed out, just I see it as hole in the current setting and range.
Fayric wrote: So, do anyone care about the prophecy at all?
There is apparently a threath they dont se even as they stare in to oblivion. Also the prophecy has lots of paralells to the great fall and birth of she who thirsts.
I suppose ynnari was really a trick of Slaanesh after all. What other threat would they be blind to?
Surely, the feud between aeldari factions dont qualify for such doomsayings.
Honestly, I'd laugh like a drain if the Ynnari were a sneaky way to introduce Croneworld Eldar.
You never know.
Both parts of the prophecy from the two articles have the same source - a 'Visionary of Alaitoc' called Ylocu Shaie. Ylocu seems to be a new character that hasn't made any significant statements before.
The prophecy also relates only to Phoenix Rising by the looks of things. Hard to say what the threat they are blind to might be? Perhaps a Tyranid threat (with the shadow of the warp representing a psychic blindness) or perhaps simply the threat of mutual destruction through civil war? Tough one.
Going with the simplest answer I would say cw and ynnari at each other’s throats and de decide to attack them both.
Possibly but Burnage does raise an interesting point about Croneworld Eldar. I did a quick google-fu research as it's been a looong time since I knew all the Eldar fluff and a few things stood out to me as very interesting;
1. They are the only source of new spirit stones. Haven't all of the new Ynnari models got a ton of spirit stones all over them, the Avatar of Ynnead is literally in a vortex of them?
2. The resident trapped souls (Aeldari) desperately yearn for the sweet release of death. Aren't the Ynnari utterly focused on death?
3. One of the Ynnari already use the a Crone Sword they took from a Crone World.
Hmmmm. Not a bad shout Burnage. Even if there is no direct fluff link between the Ynarri and Croneworlds there is certainly a thematic one.
On another note, the ruins our banshees are leaping over are very similar in appearance to the broken ruin from the Avatar of Ynnead model.
Fayric wrote: So, do anyone care about the prophecy at all?
There is apparently a threath they dont se even as they stare in to oblivion. Also the prophecy has lots of paralells to the great fall and birth of she who thirsts.
I suppose ynnari was really a trick of Slaanesh after all. What other threat would they be blind to?
Surely, the feud between aeldari factions dont qualify for such doomsayings.
Honestly, I'd laugh like a drain if the Ynnari were a sneaky way to introduce Croneworld Eldar.
You never know.
Both parts of the prophecy from the two articles have the same source - a 'Visionary of Alaitoc' called Ylocu Shaie. Ylocu seems to be a new character that hasn't made any significant statements before.
The prophecy also relates only to Phoenix Rising by the looks of things. Hard to say what the threat they are blind to might be? Perhaps a Tyranid threat (with the shadow of the warp representing a psychic blindness) or perhaps simply the threat of mutual destruction through civil war? Tough one.
Going with the simplest answer I would say cw and ynnari at each other’s throats and de decide to attack them both.
Possibly but Burnage does raise an interesting point about Croneworld Eldar. I did a quick google-fu research as it's been a looong time since I knew all the Eldar fluff and a few things stood out to me as very interesting;
1. They are the only source of new spirit stones. Haven't all of the new Ynnari models got a ton of spirit stones all over them, the Avatar of Ynnead is literally in a vortex of them?
2. The resident trapped souls (Aeldari) desperately yearn for the sweet release of death. Aren't the Ynnari utterly focused on death?
3. One of the Ynnari already use the a Crone Sword they took from a Crone World.
Hmmmm. Not a bad shout Burnage. Even if there is no direct fluff link between the Ynarri and Croneworlds there is certainly a thematic one.
On another note, the ruins our banshees are leaping over are very similar in appearance to the broken ruin from the Avatar of Ynnead model.
I still think it’s likely to be a more simple answer but I guess other spikey elder could be a thing. But in answer to you points from my knowledge of the older fluff and gathering storm.
1. Not sure as I don’t remember that particular bit of fluff but I don’t remember a shortage of stones ever being mentioned and the value is normally considered high once there’s an elder in it not before although there is symbolism in them as they are given at birth.
2. Not really the infinity circuit and stones provide a shadowy but not unpleasant existence a bit like being sedated or half asleep. Ynnari provides a solution to that anyway in that they can bring wraith constructs etc back to full sentience and a proper existence.
3. The crone swords are nothing to do with the croneworlds directly, they are named after the goddess the crone but one is/was on a crone world but that was it.
Warhammer Community wrote:Check back next Monday for part 3 of this prophecy – and a miniature reveal that you simply can’t afford to miss!
Fixed that for you Warhammer Community.
Jokes aside. I'm stoked for more plastic Eldar. Great fodder for corsair conversions. Although it's a complete longshot since they seem to be focused on building up the Ynnari, a little corsair love would be appreciated, even if just by Forgeworld.
Possibly but Burnage does raise an interesting point about Croneworld Eldar. I did a quick google-fu research as it's been a looong time since I knew all the Eldar fluff and a few things stood out to me as very interesting;
1. They are the only source of new spirit stones. Haven't all of the new Ynnari models got a ton of spirit stones all over them, the Avatar of Ynnead is literally in a vortex of them?
2. The resident trapped souls (Aeldari) desperately yearn for the sweet release of death. Aren't the Ynnari utterly focused on death?
3. One of the Ynnari already use the a Crone Sword they took from a Crone World.
Hmmmm. Not a bad shout Burnage. Even if there is no direct fluff link between the Ynarri and Croneworlds there is certainly a thematic one.
On another note, the ruins our banshees are leaping over are very similar in appearance to the broken ruin from the Avatar of Ynnead model.
1. Those Spirit Stones come from dead Craftworlders, entrusting their souls to Ynnead rather than a Craftworlds Infinity Circuit, they are also the source of power for some of the crazier things Yvraine pulls off.
2. Ynnead is the Aeldari God of the Dead, not Death (a subtle but important distinction). Dead Aeldari are in a weird position, whilst their bodies are very defintiely dead their souls remain bound to realspace by Spirit Stones and the Infinity Circuits and so after a fashion can be considerd to live on. They don't want this but can't be allowed to naturally return to the warp as Slaanesh would just munch on them. The Ynnari's goal is to fully awaken Ynnead (it's not a fully formed and awake entity like the other warp gods are yet) and somehow bring about the destruction of Slaanesh.
3. There are 5 Croneswords, Yvraine and the Visarch already seemed to have one each whilst the Avatar gained it's on their journey into the Eye of Terror in the Gathering Storm, but had to abandon the 4th that was on the same planet as they couldn't get to it through the Hamenonculi forces and Daemon hordes. The 5th is Prince Yriel's Spear of Twilight.
Croneworld Aeldari would make for a very weird faction, they'd be very heavily warp tainted and in all likelyhood would be soulless as well, other than for some cool models I'm not sure what the point would be.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fayric wrote: GW threatened to reveal some old mysteries from the fluff with this campaign -perhaps Altansar finally takes off their helmets.
The_Evergrey_One wrote: I'm wondering if we will also get plastic Striking Scorpions & plastic Mandrakes as they are also usable in Killteam.
Plastic Mandrakes would be interesting, they have a better role/place in the DE lineup (than incubi). I can understand why GW might hesitate on the rest of the court and the beasts, but I'm hoping to see plastic mandrakes and more aspects.
Part of the problem with this piecemeal approach to PR is it gives no indication if they're just doing one or two kits or if they're going to update the range (and rules) to match 8.5 edition marines.
Because at this point it really feels like they've shifted the design paradigm mid-horse, once again.
1. Those Spirit Stones come from dead Craftworlders, entrusting their souls to Ynnead rather than a Craftworlds Infinity Circuit, they are also the source of power for some of the crazier things Yvraine pulls off.
2. Ynnead is the Aeldari God of the Dead, not Death (a subtle but important distinction). Dead Aeldari are in a weird position, whilst their bodies are very defintiely dead their souls remain bound to realspace by Spirit Stones and the Infinity Circuits and so after a fashion can be considerd to live on. They don't want this but can't be allowed to naturally return to the warp as Slaanesh would just munch on them. The Ynnari's goal is to fully awaken Ynnead (it's not a fully formed and awake entity like the other warp gods are yet) and somehow bring about the destruction of Slaanesh.
3. There are 5 Croneswords, Yvraine and the Visarch already seemed to have one each whilst the Avatar gained it's on their journey into the Eye of Terror in the Gathering Storm, but had to abandon the 4th that was on the same planet as they couldn't get to it through the Hamenonculi forces and Daemon hordes. The 5th is Prince Yriel's Spear of Twilight.
Croneworld Aeldari would make for a very weird faction, they'd be very heavily warp tainted and in all likelyhood would be soulless as well, other than for some cool models I'm not sure what the point would be.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fayric wrote: GW threatened to reveal some old mysteries from the fluff with this campaign -perhaps Altansar finally takes off their helmets.
Already happened in the Gathering Storm book.
Thank you for the clarification, very interesting and useful.
I can see Ynnari as a thematic replacement for Croneworlders perhaps, but it sounds like they definitely aren't literally one and the same.
Yea both Banshees and Scorpions need something to make them a little more useful.
Banshees suffer from the weird problem of having powerswords on S3 models (though their native -1 to hit in melee is cool) and Scorps as you have stated are basically worse Assault Marines with a mortal wounds gimmick.
Both need a buff to make any new models a worthwhile purchase.
the_scotsman wrote: I've been using Namarti as my replacement for Mandrakes personally, but I'd love plastic Striking Scorps.
I really hope they give them rules to make them functional, though. Striking Scorpions currently basically are
"Do you like Assault Marines but wish they were T3, didn't have Fly and only move 7"?
6 pts.
i would field them.
I would rather see them given special rules to give them a uniquely useful role rather than have them become ridiculously cheap chaff-tier infantry.
+3" to charge range if they declare a charge against a single unit claiming the benefits of cover would be good. Or give them the new Phobos marine deployment and +2 to their sv from Cover rather than +1, to make them actually perform like ambush hunters that lurk in the shadows and then leap out and attack their prey.
The problem with scorps isn't that their damage output is necessarily terrible (though it isn't great) it's just that they're a hyper-unreliable, super fragile deep strike assault unit.
If you're gonna make me choose between 3x S4 AP- attacks and 4x S3 AP- attacks on the deep strike (Swooping Hawks) with both having some "roll for 6" unreliable mortal wound ability then you'd better make both of them pretty much guaranteed to happen. As it stands, the swooping hawks are 100% guaranteed and the scorps are a measly 28% chance...and they get overwatched.
other than for some cool models I'm not sure what the point would be.
Thats not enough ? rather have interesting / cool models than more gak lke Centurions or Santa Logan.
Chaos Eldar have been present in the lore since the begining but long time since any models.
New Drazhar vs. Jain Zar
Intersting pic - Pheonix Lord should be the clear winner.....plus Banshees have loads of cool new stars etc - incubi and co don't
An incubi kills 1 banshee per turn.
A banshee kills .55 incubi per turn.
By current stats, incubi are clear winners there. an extra attack and S4 with 3+ vs 4+ makes a huge difference.
Jain does beat the ever loving gak out of current drazar though. Drazar does get the glorious moral victory of "Aha, I BENEFIT FROM MY STUPID +1 TO HIT!!!"
other than for some cool models I'm not sure what the point would be.
Thats not enough ? rather have interesting / cool models than more gak lke Centurions or Santa Logan.
Chaos Eldar have been present in the lore since the begining but long time since any models.
New Drazhar vs. Jain Zar
Intersting pic - Pheonix Lord should be the clear winner.....plus Banshees have loads of cool new stars etc - incubi and co don't
An incubi kills 1 banshee per turn.
A banshee kills .55 incubi per turn.
By current stats, incubi are clear winners there. an extra attack and S4 with 3+ vs 4+ makes a huge difference.
Is that with the new strats etc?
The only "new strat etc" we know of from the HB exarch makes them worse against incubi. It gives up War Shout (-1 to hit) for a higher strength, higher damage attack profile...which is worse vs Incubi.
If you're talking about theoretical new strats/abilities that we don't know about yet, well I'd turn that back on you - what about the new strats/abilities that Incubi are going to get?
Because there's a looooooot of ground that banshees have to make up. And we do know for sure that all the new abilities give up War Shout.
Wait, sorry - .462 Incubi per turn, not .55. I forgot Power From Pain 6++.
other than for some cool models I'm not sure what the point would be.
Thats not enough ? rather have interesting / cool models than more gak lke Centurions or Santa Logan.
Chaos Eldar have been present in the lore since the begining but long time since any models.
New Drazhar vs. Jain Zar
Intersting pic - Pheonix Lord should be the clear winner.....plus Banshees have loads of cool new stars etc - incubi and co don't
An incubi kills 1 banshee per turn.
A banshee kills .55 incubi per turn.
By current stats, incubi are clear winners there. an extra attack and S4 with 3+ vs 4+ makes a huge difference.
Jain does beat the ever loving gak out of current drazar though. Drazar does get the glorious moral victory of "Aha, I BENEFIT FROM MY STUPID +1 TO HIT!!!"
Power from Pain already cancels out the -1, so Drazhar doesn't even come close to benefiting from his own aura. Brilliant rules writing.
other than for some cool models I'm not sure what the point would be.
Thats not enough ? rather have interesting / cool models than more gak lke Centurions or Santa Logan.
Chaos Eldar have been present in the lore since the begining but long time since any models.
New Drazhar vs. Jain Zar
Intersting pic - Pheonix Lord should be the clear winner.....plus Banshees have loads of cool new stars etc - incubi and co don't
An incubi kills 1 banshee per turn.
A banshee kills .55 incubi per turn.
By current stats, incubi are clear winners there. an extra attack and S4 with 3+ vs 4+ makes a huge difference.
Jain does beat the ever loving gak out of current drazar though. Drazar does get the glorious moral victory of "Aha, I BENEFIT FROM MY STUPID +1 TO HIT!!!"
Power from Pain already cancels out the -1, so Drazhar doesn't even come close to benefiting from his own aura. Brilliant rules writing.
I never assume anything is happening in a game of warhammer 40,000 8th edition after the 2nd turn, so I didn't give them the turn 3 bonus.
other than for some cool models I'm not sure what the point would be.
Thats not enough ? rather have interesting / cool models than more gak lke Centurions or Santa Logan.
Chaos Eldar have been present in the lore since the begining but long time since any models.
New Drazhar vs. Jain Zar
Intersting pic - Pheonix Lord should be the clear winner.....plus Banshees have loads of cool new stars etc - incubi and co don't
An incubi kills 1 banshee per turn.
A banshee kills .55 incubi per turn.
By current stats, incubi are clear winners there. an extra attack and S4 with 3+ vs 4+ makes a huge difference.
Jain does beat the ever loving gak out of current drazar though. Drazar does get the glorious moral victory of "Aha, I BENEFIT FROM MY STUPID +1 TO HIT!!!"
Power from Pain already cancels out the -1, so Drazhar doesn't even come close to benefiting from his own aura. Brilliant rules writing.
I never assume anything is happening in a game of warhammer 40,000 8th edition after the 2nd turn, so I didn't give them the turn 3 bonus.
There is a strat to boost your PfP table by 1 turn which would be useful here, and most of my games go beyond turn 3 anyway.
Isn't it rumored that Drazhar is the founder of the Striking Scorpions? As in, the original Phoenix Lord? If so, Jain doesn't have an ice cube's chance in hell against him.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Isn't it rumored that Drazhar is the founder of the Striking Scorpions? As in, the original Phoenix Lord? If so, Jain doesn't have an ice cube's chance in hell against him.
Even if that is the case - they are both the same then?
It may be the standard comic book team up - meet - fight then face the real enemy together
That picture of Drazhar looks too similar to the Klaivex we saw the other day. It's effectively a Klaivex with a ponytail. Hopefully the actual Drazhar miniature would look more elaborate with unique 'phoenix lord' weapons. Double Skull daggers for example.
So nobody else noticed the reaper floating in the middle? It looks like a reaper anyway. I wonder if they are making a new kit?
All I can think of is a reaper but it looks different slightly is why I wonder if they are redesigning it or maybe dare I say it could be a Dais... I wish anyway. The rear pontoon blades are huge compared to the FW model.
Elbows wrote: The White Scars are probably the least respected Chapter with regards to rules/army builds. There is room in 40K for a "bike army" (outside of Custodes). Bikes for troops, loads of special rules, etc.
Yes but White Scars cannot be it because then it would cannibalize the white green marines! It's more important to give dark angels YET MORE STUPID.
GW is bad.
Elbows wrote: The White Scars are probably the least respected Chapter with regards to rules/army builds. There is room in 40K for a "bike army" (outside of Custodes). Bikes for troops, loads of special rules, etc.
Yes but White Scars cannot be it because then it would cannibalize the white green marines! It's more important to give dark angels YET MORE STUPID.
GW is bad.
How about we instead don't make YET another marine army?
And first release Sisters and FW indexes (including Corsairs) propperly?
casvalremdeikun wrote: Isn't it rumored that Drazhar is the founder of the Striking Scorpions? As in, the original Phoenix Lord? If so, Jain doesn't have an ice cube's chance in hell against him.
Asurman is believed to be the first Phoenix Lord. Arha was the original *scorpion* Phoenix Lord.
I don't think I've been this excited for a model release in ages.
For some reason these new Eldar releases are very fun, probably because they are sadly so rare.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Isn't it rumored that Drazhar is the founder of the Striking Scorpions? As in, the original Phoenix Lord? If so, Jain doesn't have an ice cube's chance in hell against him.
Even if that is the case - they are both the same then?
Maybe? Do the various Phoenix Lords pass on their experiences each time they overwrite the mind of an Exarch? If so, then yes. They would be on even playing field (though the Striking Scorpions booted their original Phoenix Lord, Arhra, out because he was TOO brutal in an aspect noted for its brutality). If not, it is implied Drazhar is the original Arhra. Not a reincarnation like Jain Zar. He is THE guy. So Jain would be fighting an uphill battle.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Isn't it rumored that Drazhar is the founder of the Striking Scorpions? As in, the original Phoenix Lord? If so, Jain doesn't have an ice cube's chance in hell against him.
Asurman is believed to be the first Phoenix Lord. Arha was the original *scorpion* Phoenix Lord.
That is what I meant. He is the original Phoenix Lord of the Striking Scorpions. That they kicked out because he was too awesome.
At any rate, the cool thing it is Eldar vs Dark Eldar. The even cooler thing is that the Dark Eldar is actually the Eldar and the Eldar is actually the Dark Eldar.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Isn't it rumored that Drazhar is the founder of the Striking Scorpions? As in, the original Phoenix Lord? If so, Jain doesn't have an ice cube's chance in hell against him.
Even if that is the case - they are both the same then?
Maybe? Do the various Phoenix Lords pass on their experiences each time they overwrite the mind of an Exarch? If so, then yes. They would be on even playing field (though the Striking Scorpions booted their original Phoenix Lord, Arhra, out because he was TOO brutal in an aspect noted for its brutality). If not, it is implied Drazhar is the original Arhra. Not a reincarnation like Jain Zar. He is THE guy. So Jain would be fighting an uphill battle.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Isn't it rumored that Drazhar is the founder of the Striking Scorpions? As in, the original Phoenix Lord? If so, Jain doesn't have an ice cube's chance in hell against him.
Asurman is believed to be the first Phoenix Lord. Arha was the original *scorpion* Phoenix Lord.
That is what I meant. He is the original Phoenix Lord of the Striking Scorpions. That they kicked out because he was too awesome.
At any rate, the cool thing it is Eldar vs Dark Eldar. The even cooler thing is that the Dark Eldar is actually the Eldar and the Eldar is actually the Dark Eldar.
If anything I would think Jain Zar would have the advantage vs Drazhar. She was the first disciple of Asurmen and has the knowledge and experience of every warrior to wear the armour. Though I suppose even if he is the fallen phoenix Drazhar's armour may work the same way as a normal Phoenix Lord in which case they are probably evenly matched.
Well, Maugan Ra and Jain Zar are the best Phoenix Lords, so I'm glad if Jain is the first Phoenix Lord model to be updated. Drazhar is pretty lame, I really don't care about him.
Crimson wrote: Well, Maugan Ra and Jain Zar are the best Phoenix Lords, so I'm glad if Jain is the first Phoenix Lord model to be updated. Drazhar is pretty lame, I really don't care about him.
Edit: Screw it, it isn't letting post an image I want. Anyway, you are entitled to your opinion. It's wrong. But you are entitled to it.
Jain hopefully getting a new model is good though. I am hoping for an Eldar v. Dark Eldar boxed set, for sure.
An Actual Englishman wrote: So you all get that the artwork is from last year and may have absolutely no bearing on this campaign? It could just be a bit of nice art.
Depends. Do you think they commission artwork a week ahead of release time or do they get a huge lead time on paintings? If this art is from an actual product that was released, then there would be a reason to think it has nothing to do with anything. If it isn't, it is bound to pop up somewhere.
Where did the original “Jain likely getting a model” come from?
I haven’t read all the articles and prophecy stuff or any of all that, but it is mentioned so often like it’s a dead cert..
An Actual Englishman wrote: So you all get that the artwork is from last year and may have absolutely no bearing on this campaign? It could just be a bit of nice art.
Depends. Do you think they commission artwork a week ahead of release time or do they get a huge lead time on paintings?
Oh I'm quite sure they commission artwork way ahead of when it's due to release. I doubt they release that artwork to be purchased in print before the actual release itself though.
Danny76 wrote: Where did the original “Jain likely getting a model” come from?
I haven’t read all the articles and prophecy stuff or any of all that, but it is mentioned so often like it’s a dead cert..
Not certain. But the first part is called 'Phoenix Rising' and we're getting plastic banshees, so it is not exactly a far-fetched conclusion...
As much as I am happy we’re finally seeing plastics, I’m nervous whether the other aspects will be getting this treatment and how far spaced the releases will be if we are. I’m concerned the plastic banshees are a “test the waters” release, and if they sell poorly if the remaining aspects are in risk of being forgotten.
Most of all, I’m over GW costs. A few years ago, I would have jumped at replacing my 2E(?) metals. Now, that seems unlikely.
My guess is Jain and Drazhar show up, fight, and then Fulgrim shows up as the Phoenix; they put their fight aside to deal with him and then the Ynnari pop in too since Ynnead was birthed to be the anti-Slaanesh god. Let’s see if I think like GW. Lol
Did noone notice the peculiar Dark Eldar skimmer in the upper right? That's nothing we've seen so far and nowadays GW rarely releases artwork of things that aren't available to purchase.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Isn't it rumored that Drazhar is the founder of the Striking Scorpions? As in, the original Phoenix Lord? If so, Jain doesn't have an ice cube's chance in hell against him.
Asurman is believed to be the first Phoenix Lord. Arha was the original *scorpion* Phoenix Lord.
Asurman *is* the first Phoenix Lord. He begat the Aspect system - invented it whole cloth. The Phoenix Lords are him and his students. So "believed" is a bit of.
An Actual Englishman wrote: So you all get that the artwork is from last year and may have absolutely no bearing on this campaign? It could just be a bit of nice art.
Depends. Do you think they commission artwork a week ahead of release time or do they get a huge lead time on paintings?
Oh I'm quite sure they commission artwork way ahead of when it's due to release. I doubt they release that artwork to be purchased in print before the actual release itself though.
It was only put up today, it’s not been available since last year or anything.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Isn't it rumored that Drazhar is the founder of the Striking Scorpions? As in, the original Phoenix Lord? If so, Jain doesn't have an ice cube's chance in hell against him.
Even if that is the case - they are both the same then?
Maybe? Do the various Phoenix Lords pass on their experiences each time they overwrite the mind of an Exarch? If so, then yes. They would be on even playing field (though the Striking Scorpions booted their original Phoenix Lord, Arhra, out because he was TOO brutal in an aspect noted for its brutality). If not, it is implied Drazhar is the original Arhra. Not a reincarnation like Jain Zar. He is THE guy. So Jain would be fighting an uphill battle.
Jain Zar is THE gal, too. Only with additional souls and memories. And she never got her ass kicked by a student.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Isn't it rumored that Drazhar is the founder of the Striking Scorpions? As in, the original Phoenix Lord? If so, Jain doesn't have an ice cube's chance in hell against him.
Asurman is believed to be the first Phoenix Lord. Arha was the original *scorpion* Phoenix Lord.
That is what I meant. He is the original Phoenix Lord of the Striking Scorpions. That they kicked out because he was too awesome.
It's not a simple story of "He was too brutal and so they shunned him". He didn't simply get kicked out. He wasn't strong enough. He lost in a duel to one of his students (Karrandas). To date, the only Phoenix Lord I know of that couldn't cut it and was replaced.
Did noone notice the peculiar Dark Eldar skimmer in the upper right? That's nothing we've seen so far and nowadays GW rarely releases artwork of things that aren't available to purchase.
Bharring wrote: [
It's not a simple story of "He was too brutal and so they shunned him". He didn't simply get kicked out. He wasn't strong enough. He lost in a duel to one of his students (Karrandas). To date, the only Phoenix Lord I know of that couldn't cut it and was replaced.
Where is this story featured? My recollection is that the only time Karandras and Arhra fought Karandras was not able to defeat him and so instead goaded him into a killing rage before retreating.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Rear chunk sweeps downward, covering the engine. Ravager/Raider doesn’t have that.
Ah I see it now! The Raider doesn't have the curved rear bladey bits at all. Thanks for the clarification! It does look a lot like the Reaper (was it?) that you posted but the rear blades are larger.
I'm not too sure how certain I'd be about brand new models, but I'd not discount the possibility of some. I'm still thinking this "campaign" is mostly about eliminating what non-plastic things are still lingering in the catalog.
Speaking of which, does anyone have a list of current models are still Failcast? The GW website sure does not make it easy to search for that.
H wrote: I'm not too sure how certain I'd be about brand new models, but I'd not discount the possibility of some. I'm still thinking this "campaign" is mostly about eliminating what non-plastic things are still lingering in the catalog.
Speaking of which, does anyone have a list of current models are still Failcast? The GW website sure does not make it easy to search for that.
From Tyranids theres:
Pyrovore
Biovore (includes the sporemines which are also sold on their own - both also in resin)
Lictor
Deathleaper
Red Terror
For them 2 releases could cover the vores and the lictors simply by using duel kits like they did for several others from the Tyranid line. Red Terror might get replaced or might vanish, hopefully replaced with a neat new plastic kit.
Necrons have
ALL their named characters,
Flayed Ones
At least one generic lord
Some of the destroyer upgrades
So for Necrons a new Destroyer kit and new flayed ones would be easy. The characters are harder unless GW does an amazing multiple option character kit in plastic; otherwise I could see them losing a lot of characters as GW removes finecast simply as casting up that many plastic sculpts in character form would be expensive. The other option might be two necron character "packs". A higher unit price, but giving you 3 or so characters in each pack - thus cutting down on the number of moulds needed.
Genestealer Cults are 100% Finecast Free
Orks have
Kommandoes
Tank Bustas
Deffkopta which is actually still in metal
In theory GW could combine the two troops into a single duel kit and replace the kopta with a new plastic variation. Another "small" (in terms of numbers) fix; even if GW used individual kits for them its still only 3 new kits required.
Interesting. The Necron ones were the only ones I knew off the top of my head. There are still some Eldar ones besides the ones already previewed, I think.
I also think there are still some Blood Angels characters, plus the Sisters line.
We know Sisters are coming, the map implies (IIRC from what was "hacked" out of it) Necrons, Blood Angels and a big "dead spot" that could be Tyranids.
I still think this is plausibly the main "trust" of this campaign, to be Finecast free by/in 2020. I'm unsure how they would do the Necron characters, but the Finecast ones are terrible, so bad that I didn't even bother to buy any more after that first one was so very, very bad.
I suspect we'll be with fine cast characters for awhile to come. with GW slooowly introducing new characters in plastic. characters whom "just ain't that popular" will likely remain finecast.
H wrote: I'm not too sure how certain I'd be about brand new models, but I'd not discount the possibility of some. I'm still thinking this "campaign" is mostly about eliminating what non-plastic things are still lingering in the catalog.
Speaking of which, does anyone have a list of current models are still Failcast? The GW website sure does not make it easy to search for that.
Spoiler:
From Tyranids theres:
Pyrovore
Biovore (includes the sporemines which are also sold on their own - both also in resin)
Lictor
Deathleaper
Red Terror
For them 2 releases could cover the vores and the lictors simply by using duel kits like they did for several others from the Tyranid line. Red Terror might get replaced or might vanish, hopefully replaced with a neat new plastic kit.
Necrons have
ALL their named characters,
Flayed Ones
At least one generic lord
Some of the destroyer upgrades
So for Necrons a new Destroyer kit and new flayed ones would be easy. The characters are harder unless GW does an amazing multiple option character kit in plastic; otherwise I could see them losing a lot of characters as GW removes finecast simply as casting up that many plastic sculpts in character form would be expensive. The other option might be two necron character "packs". A higher unit price, but giving you 3 or so characters in each pack - thus cutting down on the number of moulds needed.
Genestealer Cults are 100% Finecast Free
Orks have
Kommandoes
Tank Bustas
Deffkopta which is actually still in metal
In theory GW could combine the two troops into a single duel kit and replace the kopta with a new plastic variation. Another "small" (in terms of numbers) fix; even if GW used individual kits for them its still only 3 new kits required.
I think you forgot a couple, namely;
Ghazghkull Thraka
Warboss with Big Choppa (metal)
Snikrot
Badrukk
Weirdboy
Zagstruk
Mad Dok Grotsnik
Nob with WAAAGGHHH Banner
Mostly special characters to be fair but the Weirdboy, lack of MA Warboss/Ghazzy and lack of generic warboss are strange, in addition to the Kommandos and Tankbustas you've already mentioned.
H wrote: I'm not too sure how certain I'd be about brand new models, but I'd not discount the possibility of some. I'm still thinking this "campaign" is mostly about eliminating what non-plastic things are still lingering in the catalog.
Speaking of which, does anyone have a list of current models are still Failcast? The GW website sure does not make it easy to search for that.
Could be that they also want to eliminate some FW resin models, such as the Reaper.
BrianDavion wrote: I suspect we'll be with fine cast characters for awhile to come. with GW slooowly introducing new characters in plastic. characters whom "just ain't that popular" will likely remain finecast.
You are most probably right. I do think Necron characters would be a perfect case where dual-Character plastic kits would be possible, but I doubt they'd do it for a number of reasons.
It would also be a great time to just redo the characters and make them more play-worthy, but what am I saying, what is this, 4th Edition accidentally good Necron days again?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eldarsif wrote: Could be that they also want to eliminate some FW resin models, such as the Reaper.
This would also make sense, since didn't they mention "big changes" for Forgeworld?
Ghazghkull Thraka
Warboss with Big Choppa (metal)
Snikrot
Badrukk
Weirdboy
Zagstruk
Mad Dok Grotsnik
Nob with WAAAGGHHH Banner
Mostly special characters to be fair but the Weirdboy, lack of MA Warboss/Ghazzy and lack of generic warboss are strange, in addition to the Kommandos and Tankbustas you've already mentioned.
Ack you're right! I meant to put "all those characters" into a catch all in the list and forgot!
That said characters is a big issue because they were always metal because they were limited production options beyond the expected volume for plastic. So investing into them is a bigger "cost" for GW in terms of recouping investments. Since for things like troops they can hope to see multiple copies to the same person. Of course GW is much larger today and so this might be a moot point in terms of covering costs and is purely a case of finding enough investment money to do so many sculpts.
Personally I hope they focus on the troops and such. Get all the "generic" units off finecast and leave it the sole domain of characters where GW can steadily clean them up over time
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Rear chunk sweeps downward, covering the engine. Ravager/Raider doesn’t have that.
Ah I see it now! The Raider doesn't have the curved rear bladey bits at all. Thanks for the clarification! It does look a lot like the Reaper (was it?) that you posted but the rear blades are larger.
I have a Reaper, it looks very similar to one, a few libities on the details but thats it, still hase the huge Vortex Projector on the front, the large scythe vane underneath that gun and the large scythe blades at the rear. Would not be the first time we've seen an artist take liberties with minor details (the White Scars Landspeeder speculation was only a few months ago now).
Bharring wrote: [
It's not a simple story of "He was too brutal and so they shunned him". He didn't simply get kicked out. He wasn't strong enough. He lost in a duel to one of his students (Karrandas). To date, the only Phoenix Lord I know of that couldn't cut it and was replaced.
Where is this story featured? My recollection is that the only time Karandras and Arhra fought Karandras was not able to defeat him and so instead goaded him into a killing rage before retreating.
Nowhere, Bharring is wrong on this. As far as I can tell the only bits of info on Arhra/Drazhar are the 17 day duel with Karandras that ended with Karandras running away and Drazhar/Arhra going on a rampage killing other Incubi, and a very old stroy of how he fell to Chaos, summoned Daemons into the Temple of Asur, destroying it, and defeated the other Phoenix Lords before escaping into the webway. At no point has Karandras faught and defeated Arhra.
H.B.M.C. wrote: GW said that mysteries would be revealed. Maybe they'll reveal who Arhra is/where he is/etc.
the cynic in me expects the mysteries revealed will be stuff like "where is *X* Primarch" which will be answered with "returned from Y. he's now avaliable for sale!"
BrianDavion wrote: the cynic in me expects the mysteries revealed will be stuff like "where is *X* Primarch" which will be answered with "returned from Y. he's now avaliable for sale!"
That's not cynical enough. The reveal won't be "On sale now". The reveal will be a 20 second YouTube video showing off parts of a mini in the dark with a "Coming Soon" tag at the end.
Orks have
Kommandoes
Tank Bustas
Deffkopta which is actually still in metal
In theory GW could combine the two troops into a single duel kit and replace the kopta with a new plastic variation. Another "small" (in terms of numbers) fix; even if GW used individual kits for them its still only 3 new kits required.
Thrakka, Grotznik, Snirkot, Badrukk, Zagstrukk, Banner Nob, Warboss with BC and Weirdboy are also finecast. I think orks would rather have those character updated than our "boyz with additional bits" kits.
Bharring wrote: [
It's not a simple story of "He was too brutal and so they shunned him". He didn't simply get kicked out. He wasn't strong enough. He lost in a duel to one of his students (Karrandas). To date, the only Phoenix Lord I know of that couldn't cut it and was replaced.
Where is this story featured? My recollection is that the only time Karandras and Arhra fought Karandras was not able to defeat him and so instead goaded him into a killing rage before retreating.
To my knowledge all that's happened in terms of Arhra V Karandras is they fought in a ruined Craftworld and Karandras couldn't win outright so he spent 2 1/2 weeks annoying Arhra then vanished as he killed all of his students.
Arhra wasn't really kicked out either. He straight up went traitor and brought Chaos to Asur so the Phoenix Lords had to flee and lost their base. Karandras just took his place and created the Scorpions out of whatever Arha. Incubii have a story about their founder where he got corrupted and had his students butcher him to purge the weakness IIRC. So piecing it together Arhra brought Chaos to Asur, returned to his shrine and was killed by his students and at some point someone donned his armour to become Drahzar.
Orks have
Kommandoes
Tank Bustas
Deffkopta which is actually still in metal
In theory GW could combine the two troops into a single duel kit and replace the kopta with a new plastic variation. Another "small" (in terms of numbers) fix; even if GW used individual kits for them its still only 3 new kits required.
Thrakka, Grotznik, Snirkot, Badrukk, Zagstrukk, Banner Nob, Warboss with BC and Weirdboy are also finecast. I think orks would rather have those character updated than our "boyz with additional bits" kits.
Huh. I can't actually imagine prioritizing characters over units. A single model is a lot easier to kit bash or just deal with a different material (and it helps that the metal/finecast characters are several price rises behind, so are less than $20 rather than $30-35 for a single model that many new characters launch at).
But holes in the unit lineup are more difficult to deal with. Especially for something like Kommandos, which should never just look like boys with additional bits on. They've got a distinct look.
Voss wrote: But holes in the unit lineup are more difficult to deal with. Especially for something like Kommandos, which should never just look like boys with additional bits on. They've got a distinct look.
Wat?
They literally have never been anything else. Kommadoz used to be an upgrade kit for the current ork boyz. Warbikers, burnas, lootas and spanners are indistinguishable from regular boyz if you leave the extra gear off. They are the very same model!
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Ork-Kommandos-2018 The difference between a regular boy and a kommando is a bag-pack and a gas mask. You can get almost all of those choppas and sluggas from the boyz box, the only truly unique sculpts is the nob.
Meanwhile, most of our unique characters have unique poses, gear and other bits. Kit-bashing them is impossible for most of them unless you start scratch-building stuff. All of them a prior metal models, so the fine-cast versions tend to be badly damaged or out of shape.
Voss wrote: But holes in the unit lineup are more difficult to deal with. Especially for something like Kommandos, which should never just look like boys with additional bits on. They've got a distinct look.
Wat?
They literally have never been anything else. Kommadoz used to be an upgrade kit for the current ork boyz. Warbikers, burnas, lootas and spanners are indistinguishable from regular boyz if you leave the extra gear off. They are the very same model!
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Ork-Kommandos-2018 The difference between a regular boy and a kommando is a bag-pack and a gas mask. You can get almost all of those choppas and sluggas from the boyz box, the only truly unique sculpts is the nob.
Meanwhile, most of our unique characters have unique poses, gear and other bits. Kit-bashing them is impossible for most of them unless you start scratch-building stuff. All of them a prior metal models, so the fine-cast versions tend to be badly damaged or out of shape.
Voss wrote: But holes in the unit lineup are more difficult to deal with. Especially for something like Kommandos, which should never just look like boys with additional bits on. They've got a distinct look.
Wat?
They literally have never been anything else. Kommadoz used to be an upgrade kit for the current ork boyz. Warbikers, burnas, lootas and spanners are indistinguishable from regular boyz if you leave the extra gear off. They are the very same model!
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Ork-Kommandos-2018 The difference between a regular boy and a kommando is a bag-pack and a gas mask. You can get almost all of those choppas and sluggas from the boyz box, the only truly unique sculpts is the nob.
Meanwhile, most of our unique characters have unique poses, gear and other bits. Kit-bashing them is impossible for most of them unless you start scratch-building stuff. All of them a prior metal models, so the fine-cast versions tend to be badly damaged or out of shape.
Fingers crossed for an awesome BSF expansion with Orks, then?
Voss wrote: Huh. I can't actually imagine prioritizing characters over units. A single model is a lot easier to kit bash or just deal with a different material (and it helps that the metal/finecast characters are several price rises behind, so are less than $20 rather than $30-35 for a single model that many new characters launch at).
They are also not plastics so don't have plastic hero tax. We have GW's fixation to plastic to thank for expensive character models.
timetowaste85 wrote: My guess is Jain and Drazhar show up, fight, and then Fulgrim shows up as the Phoenix
I know it's sacrilegious but maybe this part is just Eldar vs Eldar release and actually no marines show up.
I will be shocked if the total amount of models released for all other factions combined matches that for the main Marine subfaction and all its sub-sub factions
Voss wrote: Huh. I can't actually imagine prioritizing characters over units. A single model is a lot easier to kit bash or just deal with a different material (and it helps that the metal/finecast characters are several price rises behind, so are less than $20 rather than $30-35 for a single model that many new characters launch at).
They are also not plastics so don't have plastic hero tax. We have GW's fixation to plastic to thank for expensive character models.
No we don't. They just set their prices for character models high, largely because customers still keep buying after every price hike.
It has nothing to do with the material.
timetowaste85 wrote: My guess is Jain and Drazhar show up, fight, and then Fulgrim shows up as the Phoenix
I know it's sacrilegious but maybe this part is just Eldar vs Eldar release and actually no marines show up.
Given what we "see" (extrapolated from the things garnered from the map files uncovered), paired with what I think still is a focus on pushing out some Finecast-replacement plastics, I think we see at least some Blood Angels characters. In fact, a quick look on the GW site says that almost all the Blood Angels (unique) characters are not plastic and some are quite old sculpts. While that isn't evidence of anything, in itself, I consider it still plausible that the main thrust of all this will be to get some-to-most of the Finecast stuff out of the line and replaced with plastics.
Given what we "see" (extrapolated from the things garnered from the map files uncovered), paired with what I think still is a focus on pushing out some Finecast-replacement plastics, I think we see at least some Blood Angels characters. In fact, a quick look on the GW site says that almost all the Blood Angels (unique) characters are not plastic and some are quite old sculpts. While that isn't evidence of anything, in itself, I consider it still plausible that the main thrust of all this will be to get some-to-most of the Finecast stuff out of the line and replaced with plastics.
This isn't supposed to be a one and done.
"Phoenix Rising" is the first of the campaigns. It appears to be Aeldari in nature.
"Phoenix Rising" is the first of the campaigns. It appears to be Aeldari in nature.
I know. I'm not sure what you are refuting in my statement. I am only saying that, in my opinion, the main thrust of "Psychic Awakening" from a miniatures standpoint, is to get models in the plastic that were not before. I know that the "Phoenix Rising" part, so far, is seemingly Eldar focused.
What I was getting at was that it seems, to me, to be really unlikely that there are no Marines to be had in Psychic Awakening and that Blood Angels seem, to me, to be very likely to get some character models somewhere along the line. Which is exactly intended as an acknowledgement that this is a multi-stage, multi-part, multiple faction "campaign." I guess I wasn't clear enough in stating that though.
I keep wondering what the Thousand Sons are going to get out of all this. Hopefully it's something to help prevent Magnus from getting tabled on the first turn.
Shadenuat wrote: I am not sure what are you refuting in mine, since I also said "this part", not the whole campaign.
I am going to bet that next part would be Black Templars in fact.
Well, actually, that was just a failure of reading comprehension on my part.
I can see Black Templars as probable as well. If Pheonix Rising is an Eldar vs. Eldar part, I could imagine there being good reason to shift back to Marine vs. something for the next part, to which the whole Black Templar vs. Orks rumor (both factions having Finecast stuff still in the line) makes a good bit of sense.
Brian888 wrote: I keep wondering what the Thousand Sons are going to get out of all this. Hopefully it's something to help prevent Magnus from getting tabled on the first turn.
There's still a Chaos Sorcerer backpack vent from the rumour engine to be revealed, but given the generic sorcerer is finecrap, I don't think it'll be for thousand sons specifically. Maybe they'll get an actual marine based unit with some luck, or something to boost the rubrics?
There's so many threads now with all the new stuff that I can't remember which thread or who posted it, but I REALLY like the idea that the first part of the campaign is Eldar vs Dark Eldar fighting over the future of their species, then the next campaign has Fulgrim returning to take advantage of the mayhem and the Aeldari having to unite against him and his EC's
It could kill several birds with 1 campaign. It's and excuse to release several MUCH NEEDED plastic revamps for both CWE and DE, then you bleed it into an EC release with Fulgrim, plastic Noise Marines & maybe Lucius and Fabius Bile kits.
It would be a very efficient way to all but get rid of every remaining fine cast model left.
Galef wrote: There's so many threads now with all the new stuff that I can't remember which thread or who posted it, but I REALLY like the idea that the first part of the campaign is Eldar vs Dark Eldar fighting over the future of their species, then the next campaign has Fulgrim returning to take advantage of the mayhem and the Aeldari having to unite against him and his EC's
It could kill several birds with 1 campaign. It's and excuse to release several MUCH NEEDED plastic revamps for both CWE and DE, then you bleed it into an EC release with Fulgrim, plastic Noise Marines & maybe Lucius and Fabius Bile kits.
It would be a very efficient way to all but get rid of every remaining fine cast model left.
-
The implied nature of these things is that they're a single book, not two.
But we have quite a few campaigns. I believe the datamining showed something like 6 at least?
Voss wrote: Huh. I can't actually imagine prioritizing characters over units. A single model is a lot easier to kit bash or just deal with a different material (and it helps that the metal/finecast characters are several price rises behind, so are less than $20 rather than $30-35 for a single model that many new characters launch at).
They are also not plastics so don't have plastic hero tax. We have GW's fixation to plastic to thank for expensive character models.
No we don't. They just set their prices for character models high, largely because customers still keep buying after every price hike.
It has nothing to do with the material.
Probably more that people tend to only need a single character model, whereas they will likely buy multiple boxes of troops, transports etc.
Brian888 wrote: I keep wondering what the Thousand Sons are going to get out of all this. Hopefully it's something to help prevent Magnus from getting tabled on the first turn.
There's still a Chaos Sorcerer backpack vent from the rumour engine to be revealed, but given the generic sorcerer is finecrap, I don't think it'll be for thousand sons specifically. Maybe they'll get an actual marine based unit with some luck, or something to boost the rubrics?
I'd put that down as just the made-to-order re-release of the old model...
Official WarCom article went up after the art leak. The wording used seems to indicate that both Jain Zar and Drazhar are indeed getting an updated model.
Official WarCom article went up after the art leak. The wording used seems to indicate that both Jain Zar and Drazhar are indeed getting an updated model.
Huh. More interesting is the 'wont be long' bit. I thought this was going to be a slow burn preview.
Crispy78 wrote: I'd put that down as just the made-to-order re-release of the old model...
It's not, there is far more detail on the rumour engine one to the existing metal backpacks. It will be a new sorcerer.
From the WC article:
Now you’ve seen the amazing illustration, wouldn’t you love to recreate that scene on the battlefield with plastic miniatures? Well, it won’t be long before you can!
Crispy78 wrote: I'd put that down as just the made-to-order re-release of the old model...
It's not, there is far more detail on the rumour engine one to the existing metal backpacks. It will be a new sorcerer.
From the WC article:
Now you’ve seen the amazing illustration, wouldn’t you love to recreate that scene on the battlefield with plastic miniatures? Well, it won’t be long before you can!
They’re talking about the rumour engine sorcerer backpack.
So yea, Jain Zar next Monday and Drahzar the following Monday I guess.
Then we get a week or 2 of trickle-fed rules information then the books go up for pre-order.
Kinda funny GW had to post the preview for their 2 new Primaris Lieutenants I mean character models for Salamanders and IF. They just can't have Xenos in the spotlight I guess.
I've found some more rumours from a French source if anyone is interested, they claim the following (and have been 100% correct on their claims so far);
- New Drahzar/Incubi and Jain Zar/Banshees only new models for Eldar this phase.
- May well be that a Battlebox is planned for the first Psychic Awakening book. It will be 100% Aeldaris and 100% plastic.
- BT will feature next/very soon in Psychic Awakening and are vexed (perhaps Helbrecht or other major character dead?)
- Orks feature in a boxed set fighting SW, updated Ragnar model, possibly updated Ghazzy but definitely new Ork model (he didn't seem sure of this, more of a guess).
There may be other model releases later down the line, but not now.
If this is the designated "All Eldar" book, then I doubt we'd see more eldar stuff after.
Rats. I was really hoping we'd be seeing the first new Harlequin models since their initial release in 7th.
You know, since we've never had a named character, except for that one time we got a named character but he didn't have a model outside the regular Death Jester model...and he just added one rule to the death jester rules....and he didn't make the transition from 7th to 8th...and he got shot in the face by a deathwatch in the very same booklet he was introduced.
Harlequins didn't even get Grukk Facerippad. At least Grukk Facerippa had a model, we got sub-Grukk'd.
dan2026 wrote: Its going to be super dissapointing if its only Incubi and Banshees that get new models.
We literally got confirmation today of Drazhar and Jain Zar. It's not "only" Incubi and Banshees.
Considering Space Marines have been literally drowning in new gak.
Gee, it's almost like they had a codex release...
Which, I might add, is still getting dragged out even further. It looks like we're not seeing the Infiltrator/Incursor set until October with IF and Salamanders.
But I believe it....
Ever think that maybe Psychic Awakening is GW priming the pump for codex revamps next year with kit updates?
I consider Drazhar and Jain Zar part of the Banshees/Incubi.
But fair point.
However Marines are getting an absolute crap ton of new stuff
Including like 5 or 6 new character models or character redos.
Remember Eldar still have the vast majority of their range in finecast.
Dragons, Hawks, Spears, Rangers, Spiders, Scorpions, Reapers, Grotesques, Mandrakes, Beastmasters/Beasts, all the court of the Archon models (apart from Ur-ghuls)
There is so much that is behind its silly.
I want to believe that the winds are changing I really do.
I just have this sinking feeling.
Then we get a week or 2 of trickle-fed rules information then the books go up for pre-order.
Kinda funny GW had to post the preview for their 2 new Primaris Lieutenants I mean character models for Salamanders and IF. They just can't have Xenos in the spotlight I guess.
I've found some more rumours from a French source if anyone is interested, they claim the following (and have been 100% correct on their claims so far);
- New Drahzar/Incubi and Jain Zar/Banshees only new models for Eldar this phase.
- May well be that a Battlebox is planned for the first Psychic Awakening book. It will be 100% Aeldaris and 100% plastic.
- BT will feature next/very soon in Psychic Awakening and are vexed (perhaps Helbrecht or other major character dead?)
- Orks feature in a boxed set fighting SW, updated Ragnar model, possibly updated Ghazzy but definitely new Ork model (he didn't seem sure of this, more of a guess).
They posted the Salamander and IF because there was a leak.
dan2026 wrote: I consider Drazhar and Jain Zar part of the Banshees/Incubi.
But fair point.
That's fine. If that's how we're doing it...
However Marines are getting an absolute crap ton of new stuff
Including like 5 or 6 new character models or character redos.
And out of those "5 or 6 new character models or character redos", there's been very few that aren't named or tied to a subfaction.
Again, we're seeing a "crap ton of new stuff" for Marines because they just had a codex drop. We're seeing all these characters because they've split all the individual subfactions into their own sub-books and are taking the opportunity to drag out the release of the Marine stuff(which was five new items outside of the named characters! FIVE! Eliminators, Reiver Lieutenant, Infiltrators/Incursors dual box, Impulsor, and the Invictor Warsuit. There was also the individual release of the Phobos Captain and Librarian) into three months worth of releases with other stuff interspersed.
Remember Eldar still have the vast majority of their range in finecast.
Dragons, Hawks, Spears, Rangers, Spiders, Scorpions, Reapers, Grotesques, Mandrakes, Beastmasters/Beasts, all the court of the Archon models (apart from Ur-ghuls)
There is so much that is behind its silly.
I want to believe that the winds are changing I really do.
I just have this sinking feeling.
Literally nobody is saying they don't want Eldar to get other stuff updated. We don't know anything about what is coming or how it's coming out.
From my perspective? This looks like it might be a Shadowspear styled setup of all new items right off the bat. I'm very much wondering if there's going to be a Patrol Detachment for each side, or if the Craftworlder side of things might be a Vanguard.
hmm. You know if this does turn out to be a box, I hope it doesn't play out like Wrath and Ruin (or Tooth and Claw) with the box being the only source of the new kits for months, and packaged with a lot of old stuff.
stonehorse wrote: I was hoping it would be Arhra the Fallen Phoneix, would be nice to see that bit of background fleshed out. A new Drazhar model is still pretty cool.
Aren't they one and the same? Arhra and Drazhar?
I doubt they'll fill the background out much though, the whole point of it is to keep the mystery.
stonehorse wrote: I was hoping it would be Arhra the Fallen Phoneix, would be nice to see that bit of background fleshed out. A new Drazhar model is still pretty cool.
Aren't they one and the same? Arhra and Drazhar?
I doubt they'll fill the background out much though, the whole point of it is to keep the mystery.
What mystery? It’s practically a open secret by now. I mean they could then pull a “twist” and make the two not the same after all to jerk players around but IMO this whole “Is he or isn’t he?” is effectively played out and no longer interesting.
Warhammer Community wrote:The iconic triskele in the Howling Banshee’s right hand can mean only one thing – it’s Jain Zar! But who is her opponent, and – more crucially – how are they able to go blade-to-blade with the legendary Phoenix Lord without being cut to ribbons?
We know who her opponent is. The artwork was called "Jain Zar vs Drazhar".
Warhammer Community wrote:The iconic triskele in the Howling Banshee’s right hand can mean only one thing – it’s Jain Zar! But who is her opponent, and – more crucially – how are they able to go blade-to-blade with the legendary Phoenix Lord without being cut to ribbons?
We know who her opponent is. The artwork was called "Jain Zar vs Drazhar".
It's also pulled off the Warhammer Art website and the file here isn't called that.
Crimson wrote: Originally Arhra specifically fell to Chaos, which Drazhar presumably didn't do, so there's certain disconnect.
It's been always a shadowy part of the Lore, Incubi believe Drazhar is Arhra and is often sold as that but it's not sure since Drazhar never spoke a single word. GW can anytime pull the string and surprise anyone like
no it's Drastanta!
it's was just an elaborate penance she choose for failing in protect Asurmen life in the past.
Unless who Drazhar really is is resolved in Psychic awakening.
dan2026 wrote: I consider Drazhar and Jain Zar part of the Banshees/Incubi.
But fair point.
That's fine. If that's how we're doing it...
However Marines are getting an absolute crap ton of new stuff
Including like 5 or 6 new character models or character redos.
And out of those "5 or 6 new character models or character redos", there's been very few that aren't named or tied to a subfaction.
Again, we're seeing a "crap ton of new stuff" for Marines because they just had a codex drop. We're seeing all these characters because they've split all the individual subfactions into their own sub-books and are taking the opportunity to drag out the release of the Marine stuff(which was five new items outside of the named characters! FIVE! Eliminators, Reiver Lieutenant, Infiltrators/Incursors dual box, Impulsor, and the Invictor Warsuit. There was also the individual release of the Phobos Captain and Librarian) into three months worth of releases with other stuff interspersed.
Remember Eldar still have the vast majority of their range in finecast.
Dragons, Hawks, Spears, Rangers, Spiders, Scorpions, Reapers, Grotesques, Mandrakes, Beastmasters/Beasts, all the court of the Archon models (apart from Ur-ghuls)
There is so much that is behind its silly.
I want to believe that the winds are changing I really do.
I just have this sinking feeling.
Literally nobody is saying they don't want Eldar to get other stuff updated. We don't know anything about what is coming or how it's coming out.
From my perspective? This looks like it might be a Shadowspear styled setup of all new items right off the bat. I'm very much wondering if there's going to be a Patrol Detachment for each side, or if the Craftworlder side of things might be a Vanguard.
I'm really loving this new dudley dursley act you're putting on every time someone complains that the endless marine releases are overshadowing the new chaos release (4 new characters, 4 new kits) the new sisters release (4 new characters, 4 new kits) and the new eldar/drukhari release (2 new characters, 2 new kits).
The fact that gw evidently believes that marine players have such short attention spans that if we aren't getting at least 1-2 marine clampacks, a new kit and two new supplements every two weeks or they'll have a fit is hilarious.
Oh no chaos marines got a new codex and some new units, quick better release 5 marine kits 10 marine characters and what are we at now, 7 marine codexes? That oughta compensate for the indignity of someone, anyone getting anything.
dan2026 wrote: I consider Drazhar and Jain Zar part of the Banshees/Incubi.
But fair point.
That's fine. If that's how we're doing it...
However Marines are getting an absolute crap ton of new stuff
Including like 5 or 6 new character models or character redos.
And out of those "5 or 6 new character models or character redos", there's been very few that aren't named or tied to a subfaction.
Again, we're seeing a "crap ton of new stuff" for Marines because they just had a codex drop. We're seeing all these characters because they've split all the individual subfactions into their own sub-books and are taking the opportunity to drag out the release of the Marine stuff(which was five new items outside of the named characters! FIVE! Eliminators, Reiver Lieutenant, Infiltrators/Incursors dual box, Impulsor, and the Invictor Warsuit. There was also the individual release of the Phobos Captain and Librarian) into three months worth of releases with other stuff interspersed.
Remember Eldar still have the vast majority of their range in finecast.
Dragons, Hawks, Spears, Rangers, Spiders, Scorpions, Reapers, Grotesques, Mandrakes, Beastmasters/Beasts, all the court of the Archon models (apart from Ur-ghuls)
There is so much that is behind its silly.
I want to believe that the winds are changing I really do.
I just have this sinking feeling.
Literally nobody is saying they don't want Eldar to get other stuff updated. We don't know anything about what is coming or how it's coming out.
From my perspective? This looks like it might be a Shadowspear styled setup of all new items right off the bat. I'm very much wondering if there's going to be a Patrol Detachment for each side, or if the Craftworlder side of things might be a Vanguard.
I'm really loving this new dudley dursley act you're putting on every time someone complains that the endless marine releases are overshadowing the new chaos release (4 new characters, 4 new kits) the new sisters release (4 new characters, 4 new kits) and the new eldar/drukhari release (2 new characters, 2 new kits).
The fact that gw evidently believes that marine players have such short attention spans that if we aren't getting at least 1-2 marine clampacks, a new kit and two new supplements every two weeks or they'll have a fit is hilarious.
Oh no chaos marines got a new codex and some new units, quick better release 5 marine kits 10 marine characters and what are we at now, 7 marine codexes? That oughta compensate for the indignity of someone, anyone getting anything.
you relaize that Marines got a buncha new stuff at the same time chaos did, it was clear that this was a major release for both. it ain't marine players who are entitled here. Marine players just shrug and take their new stuff, (and most would like the marine releases finished up so GW can move on)
I just hope they dont wait so long to release the Incursor model after releasing rules for it that by the time it comes out GW decides to nerf it like the Void Raven.
MajorWesJanson wrote: I just hope they dont wait so long to release the Incursor model after releasing rules for it that by the time it comes out GW decides to nerf it like the Void Raven.
I doubt it, incursors are a unit I see no one getting excited about, it'll be a handy unit for marine players in some local metas but I don't see it being a particularly major splash, if anything I expect they'll see a points drop with CA
Nibbler wrote: I'm glad that there is a reasonable chance for updated aspect warrior sprues, even if I hoped to get some new warlock models...
I'm curious what the other factions will receive during the campaign. Especially the harlequins and the space marines... no rumours yet, afaik
ultramarines referanced a unit type called hellfuries, which MAY have been a tease. personally as a SM player I'd be fine with vanilla marines not getting much. the odd plastic special char here, the odd one there. a multipart supressor kit. ohh GW to realize their flier bases are absolute crap and put out a new inceptor kit with a base that's actually good.
Anyone got any idea what that is? Not the plane, the thing behind it. It's not a raider or a ravager and the silhouette doesn't match a tantalus. It could be a reaper, but it looks a different shape.
Crimson wrote: Originally Arhra specifically fell to Chaos, which Drazhar presumably didn't do, so there's certain disconnect.
But then originally Dark Eldar were Slaanesh-worshippers.
When? Certainly not since they've had models and rules, was this a bit of 2nd Ed lore I missed (totally could be and I'd be glad to have that pointed out!)? Since they were released as an army DE have been resolutely anti chaos and Slaanesh in particular.
As to the disconnect with Ahra/Drazhar there are multiple versions of the story of him falling to chaos. At least one has him look like he fell, but then he didn't, which cleans up that inconsistency.
stonehorse wrote: I was hoping it would be Arhra the Fallen Phoneix, would be nice to see that bit of background fleshed out. A new Drazhar model is still pretty cool.
Aren't they one and the same? Arhra and Drazhar?
I doubt they'll fill the background out much though, the whole point of it is to keep the mystery.
What mystery? It’s practically a open secret by now. I mean they could then pull a “twist” and make the two not the same after all to jerk players around but IMO this whole “Is he or isn’t he?” is effectively played out and no longer interesting.
I feel like in the mind of GW revealing that Drahzar is Arhra would actually be an awesome twist that would be great for everyone. I can see them 'revealing' that and expecting people to be shocked.
There’s discussion about that craft a few pages back.
From end resembles the FW Reaper, with the ship seemingly built around the main weapon.
Rear end more closely resembles the FW Tantalus, with the wings sweeping down over the engine.
But, it seems to be neither of them.
Now, contrast and compare to the craft the Incubi are disembarking from. It’s chunkier than a Raider, and seems to have its weapons underslung, rather than mounted in the fore castle. It also appears to have a continuous flank, rather than the Raider/Ravager kit, where the centre part is open.
Now, discounting artistic interpretation, the general thinking is a possible dual kit.
BrianDavion wrote: ohh GW to realize their flier bases are absolute crap and put out a new inceptor kit with a base that's actually good.
Pick up some 4” brass rings from your local Michaels, Jo Anns, Hobby Lobby, or other craft store and cut them into quarters. They make great flight rods.
Drager wrote: When? Certainly not since they've had models and rules, was this a bit of 2nd Ed lore I missed (totally could be and I'd be glad to have that pointed out!)? Since they were released as an army DE have been resolutely anti chaos and Slaanesh in particular..
Yes, prior to 3rd edition they were just Chaos Eldar. I don't know if they actually had an army list at all in RT, but they did get a feature in the Citadel Journal during 2nd ed.
When GW worked the army up for real for 3rd ed, they decided that just having them as Chaos Eldar was a bit dull, and went with the current background instead.
The Ahra story as told by an incubus. Also of note is that Ahra fought and defeated the other phoenix lords all at once in one version of this story and took on wave after wave of demons alone that caused the others to flee in another. Further, he never lost to Karandras. If Drazhar is Ahra, as implied, he could well be way stronger than Jain. Or about the same, depending on the story. I doubt he'd be weaker.
Path of the Incubus wrote:‘Followers flocked to Arhra’s shrines and he tested them for their worth. The weak and corrupt he slew, he taught discipline and martial skill only to those possessed of sufficient fury to stand against him. Where Chaos threatened Arhra always stood against it. It is told that in his final battle Arhra stood alone and without respite through days and nights when the other heroes failed to come to his aid. At last Arhra was pierced through the heart by the dark light of Chaos. What returned to the shrine showed Arhra’s face yet burned with an unholy fire that drove Arhra’s students into terror and madness.
‘When all seemed lost the students heard their master’s voice from amid the flames. It bid them to marshal their fury and stand against him, that now was the ultimate test of their discipline. Such was their devotion that they obeyed despite their terror. They slew Arhra’s corrupted mortal form and partook of his untouched spirit, taking it into themselves so that the way of Arhra should endure forever more.’
dan2026 wrote: I consider Drazhar and Jain Zar part of the Banshees/Incubi.
But fair point.
That's fine. If that's how we're doing it...
However Marines are getting an absolute crap ton of new stuff
Including like 5 or 6 new character models or character redos.
And out of those "5 or 6 new character models or character redos", there's been very few that aren't named or tied to a subfaction.
Again, we're seeing a "crap ton of new stuff" for Marines because they just had a codex drop. We're seeing all these characters because they've split all the individual subfactions into their own sub-books and are taking the opportunity to drag out the release of the Marine stuff(which was five new items outside of the named characters! FIVE! Eliminators, Reiver Lieutenant, Infiltrators/Incursors dual box, Impulsor, and the Invictor Warsuit. There was also the individual release of the Phobos Captain and Librarian) into three months worth of releases with other stuff interspersed.
Remember Eldar still have the vast majority of their range in finecast.
Dragons, Hawks, Spears, Rangers, Spiders, Scorpions, Reapers, Grotesques, Mandrakes, Beastmasters/Beasts, all the court of the Archon models (apart from Ur-ghuls)
There is so much that is behind its silly.
I want to believe that the winds are changing I really do.
I just have this sinking feeling.
Literally nobody is saying they don't want Eldar to get other stuff updated. We don't know anything about what is coming or how it's coming out.
From my perspective? This looks like it might be a Shadowspear styled setup of all new items right off the bat. I'm very much wondering if there's going to be a Patrol Detachment for each side, or if the Craftworlder side of things might be a Vanguard.
I'm really loving this new dudley dursley act you're putting on every time someone complains that the endless marine releases are overshadowing the new chaos release (4 new characters, 4 new kits) the new sisters release (4 new characters, 4 new kits) and the new eldar/drukhari release (2 new characters, 2 new kits).
The fact that gw evidently believes that marine players have such short attention spans that if we aren't getting at least 1-2 marine clampacks, a new kit and two new supplements every two weeks or they'll have a fit is hilarious.
Oh no chaos marines got a new codex and some new units, quick better release 5 marine kits 10 marine characters and what are we at now, 7 marine codexes? That oughta compensate for the indignity of someone, anyone getting anything.
you relaize that Marines got a buncha new stuff at the same time chaos did, it was clear that this was a major release for both. it ain't marine players who are entitled here. Marine players just shrug and take their new stuff, (and most would like the marine releases finished up so GW can move on)
Move on to what? More marine releases per chance?
Marine players are unbelievable - we have one above whining that they aren't releasing the 7 new kits and supplements quickly enough. Players of other factions dream of 7 releases during an entire edition. Meanwhile you're expecting new releases while in the middle/coming to the end of another massive release;
BrianDavion wrote: ultramarines referanced a unit type called hellfuries, which MAY have been a tease. personally as a SM player I'd be fine with vanilla marines not getting much. the odd plastic special char here, the odd one there. a multipart supressor kit. ohh GW to realize their flier bases are absolute crap and put out a new inceptor kit with a base that's actually good.
dan2026 wrote: I consider Drazhar and Jain Zar part of the Banshees/Incubi.
But fair point.
That's fine. If that's how we're doing it...
However Marines are getting an absolute crap ton of new stuff
Including like 5 or 6 new character models or character redos.
And out of those "5 or 6 new character models or character redos", there's been very few that aren't named or tied to a subfaction.
Again, we're seeing a "crap ton of new stuff" for Marines because they just had a codex drop. We're seeing all these characters because they've split all the individual subfactions into their own sub-books and are taking the opportunity to drag out the release of the Marine stuff(which was five new items outside of the named characters! FIVE! Eliminators, Reiver Lieutenant, Infiltrators/Incursors dual box, Impulsor, and the Invictor Warsuit. There was also the individual release of the Phobos Captain and Librarian) into three months worth of releases with other stuff interspersed.
Remember Eldar still have the vast majority of their range in finecast.
Dragons, Hawks, Spears, Rangers, Spiders, Scorpions, Reapers, Grotesques, Mandrakes, Beastmasters/Beasts, all the court of the Archon models (apart from Ur-ghuls)
There is so much that is behind its silly.
I want to believe that the winds are changing I really do.
I just have this sinking feeling.
Literally nobody is saying they don't want Eldar to get other stuff updated. We don't know anything about what is coming or how it's coming out.
From my perspective? This looks like it might be a Shadowspear styled setup of all new items right off the bat. I'm very much wondering if there's going to be a Patrol Detachment for each side, or if the Craftworlder side of things might be a Vanguard.
I'm really loving this new dudley dursley act you're putting on every time someone complains that the endless marine releases are overshadowing the new chaos release (4 new characters, 4 new kits) the new sisters release (4 new characters, 4 new kits) and the new eldar/drukhari release (2 new characters, 2 new kits).
The fact that gw evidently believes that marine players have such short attention spans that if we aren't getting at least 1-2 marine clampacks, a new kit and two new supplements every two weeks or they'll have a fit is hilarious.
Oh no chaos marines got a new codex and some new units, quick better release 5 marine kits 10 marine characters and what are we at now, 7 marine codexes? That oughta compensate for the indignity of someone, anyone getting anything.
you relaize that Marines got a buncha new stuff at the same time chaos did, it was clear that this was a major release for both. it ain't marine players who are entitled here. Marine players just shrug and take their new stuff, (and most would like the marine releases finished up so GW can move on)
Move on to what? More marine releases per chance?
Marine players are unbelievable - we have one above whining that they aren't releasing the 7 new kits and supplements quickly enough. Players of other factions dream of 7 releases during an entire edition. Meanwhile you're expecting new releases while in the middle/coming to the end of another massive release;
BrianDavion wrote: ultramarines referanced a unit type called hellfuries, which MAY have been a tease. personally as a SM player I'd be fine with vanilla marines not getting much. the odd plastic special char here, the odd one there. a multipart supressor kit. ohh GW to realize their flier bases are absolute crap and put out a new inceptor kit with a base that's actually good.
Modern GW plastic kits only exist because of the popularity of marines. You should be thanking us.
Since I started playing in late 4th ed, the biggest renaissance 40k ever saw was the release of the 8th ed indexes. With just an equivalent amount of attention being paid to marines, and not a massive disproportionate amount, the game suddenly became exciting again for so many people.
With the design space and time they've committed to making these freaking skittles taste the rainbow marine codexes (which marine players will basically just take the most competitive one and leave the others to rot, we already have a multipage post about Blue Iron Hands now lol) they could have created 2.0 codexes for:
The 10 clampack characters they're releasing for marines could have been badly needed plastic kits for gak like Ork Warbosses and Weirdboyz, a skitarii HQ, mobile DEhqs, basic Chaos Lords/Sorcerors, all that stuff that's like the basic iconic HQ choices for the core factions in the game that's still sitting in finecast waiting while we're unpacking Primaris Lieutenant Sculpt #11.
ekwatts wrote: Ooh, a thread of people complaining about Marines, haven't had one of those for a while.
we have them everytime Marines get a release. and it's always the same, whining that marines get something, followed by passive agressive comments that suggest GW is misusing their design time, followed by people outright claiming that Marines are somehow stealing releases from other factions.
With the design space and time they've committed to making these freaking skittles taste the rainbow marine codexes (which marine players will basically just take the most competitive one and leave the others to rot, we already have a multipage post about Blue Iron Hands now lol) they could have created 2.0 codexes for:
some 40k players will always take the most compeitive army no matter what. furthermore you're assuming we're not going to see new material and possiably even new codices for the stuff you've mentioned. I also find it amusing you put blood angels, dark angels and space wolves there. it's ok for them to get a seperate book, but not ok for Imperial fists?
we have them everytime Marines get a release. and it's always the same, whining that marines get something, followed by passive agressive comments that suggest GW is misusing their design time, followed by people outright claiming that Marines are somehow stealing releases from other factions.
Probably does not help that Marine exclusive players scream and have tantrams in loads of threads that their specific Marine Sub Sub faction is not
1) Got all the toys everyone else gets - plus their own super exclusive ones
2) Has crap rules
3) Other factions are getting stuff when they are not ( even though not a week goes by without something for Marines)
Then you get the sheer stupidity of claiming that spending limited resources on one thing does not mean another does not get done (unless they really are think enough to think GW has infinitte time and resources)
Drager wrote: The Ahra story as told by an incubus. Also of note is that Ahra fought and defeated the other phoenix lords all at once in one version of this story and took on wave after wave of demons alone that caused the others to flee in another. Further, he never lost to Karandras. If Drazhar is Ahra, as implied, he could well be way stronger than Jain. Or about the same, depending on the story. I doubt he'd be weaker.
Path of the Incubus wrote:‘Followers flocked to Arhra’s shrines and he tested them for their worth. The weak and corrupt he slew, he taught discipline and martial skill only to those possessed of sufficient fury to stand against him. Where Chaos threatened Arhra always stood against it. It is told that in his final battle Arhra stood alone and without respite through days and nights when the other heroes failed to come to his aid. At last Arhra was pierced through the heart by the dark light of Chaos. What returned to the shrine showed Arhra’s face yet burned with an unholy fire that drove Arhra’s students into terror and madness.
‘When all seemed lost the students heard their master’s voice from amid the flames. It bid them to marshal their fury and stand against him, that now was the ultimate test of their discipline. Such was their devotion that they obeyed despite their terror. They slew Arhra’s corrupted mortal form and partook of his untouched spirit, taking it into themselves so that the way of Arhra should endure forever more.’
Drager wrote: The Ahra story as told by an incubus. Also of note is that Ahra fought and defeated the other phoenix lords all at once in one version of this story and took on wave after wave of demons alone that caused the others to flee in another. Further, he never lost to Karandras. If Drazhar is Ahra, as implied, he could well be way stronger than Jain. Or about the same, depending on the story. I doubt he'd be weaker.
Path of the Incubus wrote:‘Followers flocked to Arhra’s shrines and he tested them for their worth. The weak and corrupt he slew, he taught discipline and martial skill only to those possessed of sufficient fury to stand against him. Where Chaos threatened Arhra always stood against it. It is told that in his final battle Arhra stood alone and without respite through days and nights when the other heroes failed to come to his aid. At last Arhra was pierced through the heart by the dark light of Chaos. What returned to the shrine showed Arhra’s face yet burned with an unholy fire that drove Arhra’s students into terror and madness.
‘When all seemed lost the students heard their master’s voice from amid the flames. It bid them to marshal their fury and stand against him, that now was the ultimate test of their discipline. Such was their devotion that they obeyed despite their terror. They slew Arhra’s corrupted mortal form and partook of his untouched spirit, taking it into themselves so that the way of Arhra should endure forever more.’
So long as someone picks up the armor, then death is not permanent for a Phoenix Lord. Even a scrap of the armor seems sufficient as Gav Thorpe has written a case where Jain Zarr regenerates completely from someone touching a shredded scrap of armor.
And that's the beauty of the Arhra story. It's a mystery and it has different, sometimes conflicting stories. The "truth" can be interpreted a number of ways.
I personally like the idea of him being Drazhar, although I also like the idea that he might not be the original Arhra. As-in the original died and Drazhar is a later "incarnation" similar to how a Phoenix Lord can be reborn if an new meat-suit dons the armour.
The difference to me, it that Arhra may not have used a Spirit Stone. Drazhar does not seem to sport one at least (intact anyway, since Incubi like to wear the broken stones of Aspects they've slain)
So there could be something else tying the "essence" of Arhra to Drazhars Armour. This could even make him a slightly different entity rather than a true "cloning" that seems to happen with PLs
Fun little headcannon aside:
What if Arhra's body was corrupted and possessed, but the demon could not corrupt the soulstone(s)?
And so when Arhra's body died, Arhra (the armor) went dormant until another Eldar donned it - just like any other Exarch/Phoenix Lord?
That new personality then merged with Arhra's soul, which itself was uncorrupted. Knowing that Arhra had fallen, he took the name Drazhar.
Way beyond speculative, it's firmly in "headcanon" territory. But it agrees with lore just enough to avoid the "crackpot" label, I think.
Automatically Appended Next Post: One of the reasons for this: age.
Eldrad is old. Really old. Even for Eldar. There aren't many Eldar who reach his age. He's one of the few who "naturally" reach that age. And he uses Soulstones to avoid Slanesh.
Asurman, Jain Zar, and company are similarly old - their bodies are not. Their bodies die from time to time and are replaced. Nothing in the fluff points to a Phoenix Lord (or Exarch) being able to escape the aging of a single body.
Vect is also similarly old, but he's rejuvinated from taking pleasure in pain. That's how DE live so long. It's also how they survive Slanesh.
How does he not age? How does he avoid Slanesh?
There's no link to Cegorath, so that's out (Harlies' way).
There's no World Tree he's one with (Exodites' way).
It's not just a temporary sojourn (Exiles/Corsairs).
The obvious answer seems to be "The DE way". But that won't work for him. He takes pride and pleasure in strength. And maybe killing. But not in pain. Not in cruelty. He is murderous, deadly, scary, bad. But he's not an S&M torture fiend. He doesn't care for pain. So he doesn't slake Slanesh's corruption that way.
So how?
The one way not mentioned so far? Soulstones.
This all makes sense if he *is* a Phoenix Lord. He is his armor. Slanesh can't drink his soul because *soulstones*.
And has he truly never lost a fight? In nearly ten thousand years of fighting? Feasible if he's always picking fights he knows he can win. But if he's fighting difficult fights even occasionally, he's bound to lose at least a couple a millenium. And I can't see Drazhar settling for fights he knows he can win 100%. So what happens when he "dies"?
Again, if he still *is* a Phoenix Lord, another Incubi dons his armor, and he's reborn.
Drazhar never speaks, so we actually do not know what his name is. It could be Arhra for all we know.
I was hoping that the Gav thorpe books would eventually explore this story more, but he got to writing other things. If they are advancing the story, mayb some of these questions can be answered and explored. New GW has been pretty good about answer questions and just opening the door to others. I expect Yvraine to feature in this story as well by the end of it. Maybe she restores Drahzar to his full memories or something, and brings Arhra back.
The models look ace, and I look forward to seeing the rules.
Galef wrote: And that's the beauty of the Arhra story. It's a mystery and it has different, sometimes conflicting stories. The "truth" can be interpreted a number of ways.
I personally like the idea of him being Drazhar, although I also like the idea that he might not be the original Arhra. As-in the original died and Drazhar is a later "incarnation" similar to how a Phoenix Lord can be reborn if an new meat-suit dons the armour.
The difference to me, it that Arhra may not have used a Spirit Stone. Drazhar does not seem to sport one at least (intact anyway, since Incubi like to wear the broken stones of Aspects they've slain)
So there could be something else tying the "essence" of Arhra to Drazhars Armour. This could even make him a slightly different entity rather than a true "cloning" that seems to happen with PLs
-
It could just be that the spirit stone is inside the armour.
Personally I like the idea that Arhra's spirit is tied to the armour itself and it just absorbs every Eldar who wears it but in a more predatory way than other Phoenix Lords. For example if we say that Asurmen merges with another soul peacefully then Arhra's is just devouring them like a demon.
Galef wrote: And that's the beauty of the Arhra story. It's a mystery and it has different, sometimes conflicting stories. The "truth" can be interpreted a number of ways.
I personally like the idea of him being Drazhar, although I also like the idea that he might not be the original Arhra. As-in the original died and Drazhar is a later "incarnation" similar to how a Phoenix Lord can be reborn if an new meat-suit dons the armour.
The difference to me, it that Arhra may not have used a Spirit Stone. Drazhar does not seem to sport one at least (intact anyway, since Incubi like to wear the broken stones of Aspects they've slain)
So there could be something else tying the "essence" of Arhra to Drazhars Armour. This could even make him a slightly different entity rather than a true "cloning" that seems to happen with PLs
-
It could just be that the spirit stone is inside the armour.
Personally I like the idea that Arhra's spirit is tied to the armour itself and it just absorbs every Eldar who wears it but in a more predatory way than other Phoenix Lords. For example if we say that Asurmen merges with another soul peacefully then Arhra's is just devouring them like a demon.
In the same vein, I like imagining it as Asurmen (and those who merge with him) view it as merging, whereas Arhra (and his victims) view it as devouring. But it is entirely the same thing. I find that even darker.
Prodigalson wrote: Drazhar never speaks, so we actually do not know what his name is. It could be Arhra for all we know.
I was hoping that the Gav thorpe books would eventually explore this story more, but he got to writing other things. If they are advancing the story, mayb some of these questions can be answered and explored. New GW has been pretty good about answer questions and just opening the door to others. I expect Yvraine to feature in this story as well by the end of it. Maybe she restores Drahzar to his full memories or something, and brings Arhra back.
The models look ace, and I look forward to seeing the rules.
I think it's a good thing that Thorpe didn't expand on that. He's been great on expanding the setting, what life inside the Craftworlds or Cosrair fleets are like and what the Paths themselves are like, but he's proven pretty aweful at exploring characters and events.
Bharring wrote: In the same vein, I like imagining it as Asurmen (and those who merge with him) view it as merging, whereas Arhra (and his victims) view it as devouring. But it is entirely the same thing. I find that even darker.
Indeed that is darker. Very 'there is no light or dark side of the force, just the user that determines it'
There may be other model releases later down the line, but not now.
If this is the designated "All Eldar" book, then I doubt we'd see more eldar stuff after.
Rats. I was really hoping we'd be seeing the first new Harlequin models since their initial release in 7th.
You know, since we've never had a named character, except for that one time we got a named character but he didn't have a model outside the regular Death Jester model...and he just added one rule to the death jester rules....and he didn't make the transition from 7th to 8th...and he got shot in the face by a deathwatch in the very same booklet he was introduced.
Harlequins didn't even get Grukk Facerippad. At least Grukk Facerippa had a model, we got sub-Grukk'd.
Yea I got super excited when I saw the second model reveal was dark eldar incubi, because I assumed the third reveal would naturally be something for Harlequins finally. Really disappointed that it's pretty much confirmed that this is all we are getting for the aeldari model releases with this book. I guess the only thing Harlequin fans could hope for is to not be included at all in this campaign book and be featured in a upcoming one with some other faction(s) and a potential model release. This also seems kinda unlikely since harlequins were briefly mentioned in the phoenix rising debut. We can probably expect some token formation/stratagem/psychic power in this campaign book and that's it.
So, I have a question. Is there actually a use for Howling Banshees? Looking at their stats, they seem weird. Their speed and overwatch negation is sweet, but they’re so fragile and only S3 but have power swords. What’s their purpose?
Tiberius501 wrote: So, I have a question. Is there actually a use for Howling Banshees? Looking at their stats, they seem weird. Their speed and overwatch negation is sweet, but they’re so fragile and only S3 but have power swords. What’s their purpose?
Currently their use is pretty limited. They are basically a suicide missile that can charge across the board faster than you think they will and tie something up.
But in the age of "everything has screens or Fly and most things cost more than your min HB squad" they're just not worthwhile.
ekwatts wrote: Ooh, a thread of people complaining about Marines, haven't had one of those for a while.
we have them everytime Marines get a release.
All the time then?
and it's always the same, whining that marines get something, followed by passive agressive comments that suggest GW is misusing their design time, followed by people outright claiming that Marines are somehow stealing releases from other factions.
Marines releases don't 'steal' anything from anyone. But they stop releases for other factions.
Imagine that 'development time' is represented with apples.
If I have a limited amount, let's say 10 apples, and I give 6 to Marines/Imperium, 3 to chaos and 1 to xenos factions of various flavours, does this seem like an equal division of apples?
No. No it isn't. Poor xenos have to split a raw apple while imperium (Marines) get a three course apple surprise.
Tiberius501 wrote: So, I have a question. Is there actually a use for Howling Banshees? Looking at their stats, they seem weird. Their speed and overwatch negation is sweet, but they’re so fragile and only S3 but have power swords. What’s their purpose?
Currently their use is pretty limited. They are basically a suicide missile that can charge across the board faster than you think they will and tie something up.
But in the age of "everything has screens or Fly and most things cost more than your min HB squad" they're just not worthwhile.
HOpefully new rules change that.
I'd say they're the opposite of a suicide missile. They're more of a slightly Hardy (when in melee) wet noodle. They lack damage but can sustain a little with stratagem support.
Tiberius501 wrote: So, I have a question. Is there actually a use for Howling Banshees? Looking at their stats, they seem weird. Their speed and overwatch negation is sweet, but they’re so fragile and only S3 but have power swords. What’s their purpose?
I think it's supposed to be heavy infantry killers. Their scream paralyses the enemy and their power swords just ignore the armour. But that's lore and the game so often fails to represent it.
Tiberius501 wrote: So, I have a question. Is there actually a use for Howling Banshees? Looking at their stats, they seem weird. Their speed and overwatch negation is sweet, but they’re so fragile and only S3 but have power swords. What’s their purpose?
Currently their use is pretty limited. They are basically a suicide missile that can charge across the board faster than you think they will and tie something up.
But in the age of "everything has screens or Fly and most things cost more than your min HB squad" they're just not worthwhile.
HOpefully new rules change that.
Yeah hopefully new rules help. Jain Zar seems pretty swish though so I’m keen to see her updated model as well.
Tiberius501 wrote: So, I have a question. Is there actually a use for Howling Banshees? Looking at their stats, they seem weird. Their speed and overwatch negation is sweet, but they’re so fragile and only S3 but have power swords. What’s their purpose?
I think it's supposed to be heavy infantry killers. Their scream paralyses the enemy and their power swords just ignore the armour. But that's lore and the game so often fails to represent it.
That's how they were in 4th ed. Banshees were super effective against necrons.
WBB (what RP used to be called) didn't work against melee weapons that ignored armor and due to their low initiative stat necrons were prone to getting swept and wiped out completely.
Tiberius501 wrote: So, I have a question. Is there actually a use for Howling Banshees? Looking at their stats, they seem weird. Their speed and overwatch negation is sweet, but they’re so fragile and only S3 but have power swords. What’s their purpose?
Currently their use is pretty limited. They are basically a suicide missile that can charge across the board faster than you think they will and tie something up.
But in the age of "everything has screens or Fly and most things cost more than your min HB squad" they're just not worthwhile.
HOpefully new rules change that.
Yeah hopefully new rules help. Jain Zar seems pretty swish though so I’m keen to see her updated model as well.
She's mildley OK in combat against characters, the -1 to hit and removing one of your opponents weapons makign pretty survivable in that sense, but the lack of an invuln and characters like Abaddon having 2 combat weapons means she can can be killed quite easily. Her biggest problem is lack of attacks though, when a Space Marine Captain can have up to 8 or 9 attacks why does a gladiator with 10 000+ years or experience only have 4?
I am working on a Ynnari army, and they are useful in that build. Always getting +1 to hit, and combining that with re-roll to wound makes them pretty good. I also run wytches with them and wytches with them. The banshees role in and stop the overwatch, then the wytches prevent them from falling back. I am not saying it is top tier, especially with the advent of marine massive small arms fire, but there was a place for them.
Same goes for Incubi. They are terrible in a dark eldar book, but when I use them with my Ynnari, they are great and wonderful. 30 attacks that hit on a 2+ with re-roll 1s (because in a Ynnari army, the Archon gives them re-roll 1 to hit) and then re-roll wound with Unbind Souls. The Klavex also does 3 damage on wound rolls of a 6 and has 5 attacks with the demi-klavie. Again, in a dark eldar army... trash... in a ynnari army... they are ok. I will be fun to see how both units work with updates.
Tiberius501 wrote: So, I have a question. Is there actually a use for Howling Banshees? Looking at their stats, they seem weird. Their speed and overwatch negation is sweet, but they’re so fragile and only S3 but have power swords. What’s their purpose?
I think it's supposed to be heavy infantry killers. Their scream paralyses the enemy and their power swords just ignore the armour. But that's lore and the game so often fails to represent it.
Part of the issue is that powerswords were Strength 5 and had good AP back in RT/2ed, so their low base str didn’t matter. Since the rules for power weapons have changed they haven’t been as good at their role.
Part of the issue is that powerswords were Strength 5 and had good AP back in RT/2ed, so their low base str didn’t matter. Since the rules for power weapons have changed they haven’t been as good at their role.
Yep. But there really isn't a reason why Eldar power swords or just Banshee swords need to be the same than the imperial power swords. They could easily give them better rules. A strength bonus or shred for example.
I mean banshee's profile is weaker than Death Cultist aren't they? They definitely should have a better profile, not a worse one, and I say this as someone who has some lovely count-as DCA!!!
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: I mean banshee's profile is weaker than Death Cultist aren't they? They definitely should have a better profile, not a worse one, and I say this as someone who has some lovely count-as DCA!!!
Eh. DCA seem a little overtuned in the beta codex for 17 point models. Banshees don't need to be rocking 4 attacks each at strength 4, especially with inflicting no overwatch and hit penalties, and a big charge bonus.
Besides the N&R seems a bad place for that kind of comparison, especially with a non-final version of the DCA rules.
If you aren't Ork Boyzs level of number of attacks per points you are worthless as a meele unit.
This is more or less the problem. Special rules and slightly better armour/weapons simply do not compensate for cost+number of attacks. GW basically screwed this element up in the game as a whole and have yet to fix it (and I don't think they will). A 11-12 point Banshee with two strength 3 attacks...is simply worse than a 7 point model with 3-7 attacks. Armour and weapons do not matter enough to balance out that equation.
Banshees speed, denial of overwatch etc...still doesn't make up for spending 107 points on eight Toughness 3 models with 4+ armour who die to a stiff breeze. The fundamental focus of extra attacks, extra re-rolls, extra fighting or shooting phases, etc. is wildly overdone in 40K at the moment, turning the game into mass dice over any form of quality/elite unit potential.
The issue of banshee quality imo speaks to the problems caused by continually adding new marine units to the game.
This isn't a gripe about that per se, but rather an examination of the consequences of continually adding/inventing new units/tactical roles for a single army.
Starting with the assumptions that GW wants to sell these new units and therefore needs to make them uniquely useful so they aren't just an alternative version of existing units...
Each new unit needs a role through weapons and rules. this slices the marine tactical role pie into thinner and thinner pieces.
For those armies without this large selection of pie, their fewer units need to be more generically good against more things to be competitive.
the only way to balance it out is to divide other armies' pies up in similar amounts so that you can't just take one unit to counter 3 enemy units.
The results are either completely useless units that don't work, or really good units that are so universally good that they get spammed.
Hellebore wrote: The issue of banshee quality imo speaks to the problems caused by continually adding new marine units to the game.
This isn't a gripe about that per se, but rather an examination of the consequences of continually adding/inventing new units/tactical roles for a single army.
Starting with the assumptions that GW wants to sell these new units and therefore needs to make them uniquely useful so they aren't just an alternative version of existing units...
Each new unit needs a role through weapons and rules. this slices the marine tactical role pie into thinner and thinner pieces.
For those armies without this large selection of pie, their fewer units need to be more generically good against more things to be competitive.
the only way to balance it out is to divide other armies' pies up in similar amounts so that you can't just take one unit to counter 3 enemy units.
The results are either completely useless units that don't work, or really good units that are so universally good that they get spammed.
Indeed, it also leads to a sales downward spiral that leads to even less kits.
E.g. SoB. Until recently.
Maybe I’m going bonkers, but I could’ve sworn one of the new art works GW posted, along with that sweet Howling Banshees vs Incubi one, was a cool Warlock art work. Someone posted them here didn’t they? I was flicking back but can’t find it.
Tiberius501 wrote: Awesome thanks. I do hope the warlocks get an update, I love the idea of them, especially as I’m just starting an Ulthwé army.
Yeah you know what would be really ace, is if they didn't price the Warlocks with Character status who get 1 psychic power each, the same as the warlocks that DONT get character status and cast 1 psychic power per 2 models.
It'd be super chill if they were not 45ppm for 2W 4++ with 2 attacks with no AP. That's a reasonable price for a support piece with Character keyword making him essentially invincible, but for a dang unit it's highway robbery.
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Hellebore wrote: The issue of banshee quality imo speaks to the problems caused by continually adding new marine units to the game.
This isn't a gripe about that per se, but rather an examination of the consequences of continually adding/inventing new units/tactical roles for a single army.
Starting with the assumptions that GW wants to sell these new units and therefore needs to make them uniquely useful so they aren't just an alternative version of existing units...
Each new unit needs a role through weapons and rules. this slices the marine tactical role pie into thinner and thinner pieces.
For those armies without this large selection of pie, their fewer units need to be more generically good against more things to be competitive.
the only way to balance it out is to divide other armies' pies up in similar amounts so that you can't just take one unit to counter 3 enemy units.
The results are either completely useless units that don't work, or really good units that are so universally good that they get spammed.
That's ridiculous. Why, surely we have not exhausted the design space for bolter wielding space marine infantry! We've only got
Tactical marines, Intercessors with bolt rifles/bolt carbines/stalker boltguns, Reivers with Carbines, Incursors, Infiltrators, Scouts with boltguns, Crusader squads, Grey Hunters, Grey Knight Strike Squads, Deathwatch Veterans, Sternguard, Chaos Space Marines, Thousand Sons, and Death Guard. It must be a piece of cake to keep those distinct, and I'm sure never ever leads to any kind of arms race where one style of boltgun wielding infantry (say, Scouts with Boltguns) is just straight up the best, despite GW trying to cram a bunch of new kits into the already overstuffed boltgun hole, leading to some crazy situation like intercessors that pump out 6 shots with ap-1 apiece or full power armored boltgun dudes that just Infiltrate straight onto the battlefield and block deep strike.
"Ah, come on sir, eet eez just a wafer thin new tactical squad sprue!"
"No, I'm stuffed GW, I've already got 130 models in power armor with boltguns!"
"Oh ho ho, but you zee, we have packaged zis one in zee new boxed set with all zees ozzer fancy new units, dedicating not one, but two sprue molds to making zis thing zat is essentially ze same as what you have! Also, ze new rules, zey are indispensible! Ze Primaris Introverts are no mere tactical squad, no no! Zey deep strike onto ze battlefield BEFORE ZE DEPLOYMENT STARTS using special fidget spinner attachments on their boltguns, and zey get to fire their boltguns six times during ze enemy deployment phase! And each kit box comes with a free loot crate for ze Fortnite!"
Banshees are basicly a soft meat wall for the exarch. The exarch in turn is supposed to use their special weapons to assassinate an enemy hero. Exactly the same MO as Scorps.
And yeah rogue trader era models kinda need update huh.
Despite having 6 beloved metal warlocks, i would love some new in plastic -provided they come in a box as a unit. They used to come in a box with a farseer, so I hope they are still entiteled to be sold as a unit.
AoS released a box of multiple weird gloomspite shamans, and I hold this as a promise of probability for a warlock unit.
Tiberius501 wrote: Awesome thanks. I do hope the warlocks get an update, I love the idea of them, especially as I’m just starting an Ulthwé army.
Yeah you know what would be really ace, is if they didn't price the Warlocks with Character status who get 1 psychic power each, the same as the warlocks that DONT get character status and cast 1 psychic power per 2 models.
It'd be super chill if they were not 45ppm for 2W 4++ with 2 attacks with no AP. That's a reasonable price for a support piece with Character keyword making him essentially invincible, but for a dang unit it's highway robbery.
What would be nice is if they actually explored the seer path a bit more, like they did in 2nd Ed.
There were 3 levels of warlock and the farseer besides.
Within the path of the seer (or witch path) are several ways (equivalent to aspects): way of the warlock, way of spiritseer, way of the seer etc.
But no matter which one you follow, if you get trapped you become a farseer.
So imo, the squad of warlocks should be newbie warlocks and the least powerful.
You should then be able to take 1-3 warlock masters as a single choice, all of which act as separate characters with much better stats and more powers.
Farseers should be up near Phoenix lords in cost, so rare and powerful. The current farseer imo is 'just' a seer...
Tiberius501 wrote: Awesome thanks. I do hope the warlocks get an update, I love the idea of them, especially as I’m just starting an Ulthwé army.
Yeah you know what would be really ace, is if they didn't price the Warlocks with Character status who get 1 psychic power each, the same as the warlocks that DONT get character status and cast 1 psychic power per 2 models.
It'd be super chill if they were not 45ppm for 2W 4++ with 2 attacks with no AP. That's a reasonable price for a support piece with Character keyword making him essentially invincible, but for a dang unit it's highway robbery.
What would be nice is if they actually explored the seer path a bit more, like they did in 2nd Ed.
There were 3 levels of warlock and the farseer besides.
Within the path of the seer (or witch path) are several ways (equivalent to aspects): way of the warlock, way of spiritseer, way of the seer etc.
But no matter which one you follow, if you get trapped you become a farseer.
So imo, the squad of warlocks should be newbie warlocks and the least powerful.
You should then be able to take 1-3 warlock masters as a single choice, all of which act as separate characters with much better stats and more powers.
Farseers should be up near Phoenix lords in cost, so rare and powerful. The current farseer imo is 'just' a seer...
This would be awesome, the witch path really isn’t explored enough. A whole new section of magic units would be glorious. A troop choice, like a Dire Avengers equivalent would be super neat as the really basic warlocks, or if that seems a bit odd at least an elite squad variant.
I know it's not going to happen, but I'd love to see some more exploration of the incubi temples in the rules, maybe the addition of a Hierarch or an aspirant squad or something.
Tiberius501 wrote: Awesome thanks. I do hope the warlocks get an update, I love the idea of them, especially as I’m just starting an Ulthwé army.
Yeah you know what would be really ace, is if they didn't price the Warlocks with Character status who get 1 psychic power each, the same as the warlocks that DONT get character status and cast 1 psychic power per 2 models.
It'd be super chill if they were not 45ppm for 2W 4++ with 2 attacks with no AP. That's a reasonable price for a support piece with Character keyword making him essentially invincible, but for a dang unit it's highway robbery.
What would be nice is if they actually explored the seer path a bit more, like they did in 2nd Ed.
There were 3 levels of warlock and the farseer besides.
Within the path of the seer (or witch path) are several ways (equivalent to aspects): way of the warlock, way of spiritseer, way of the seer etc.
But no matter which one you follow, if you get trapped you become a farseer.
So imo, the squad of warlocks should be newbie warlocks and the least powerful.
You should then be able to take 1-3 warlock masters as a single choice, all of which act as separate characters with much better stats and more powers.
Farseers should be up near Phoenix lords in cost, so rare and powerful. The current farseer imo is 'just' a seer...
My own personal opinion is that Path of the Seer it's the only one the Eldar develop their psychic powers. A normal Eldar walking it and who it's deployed to fight (due already walked the Path of War) fights as Warlocks, if the Eldar get lost it becomes either a Farseer fixated in see the future or a Spiritseer fixated in see/revive the past trought dead ones memories.
From a gameplay perspective i'll boost Farseers psychic might, put Spiritseers in equal range but with a whole different psy discipline for Wraith armies and basic protection buffs for normal Eldars, and Warlocks changin their psychic rules to something simple like the capellan litanies for buffing single squads in the frontlines.
In a dream world Farseers and Warlocks would actually return to 2nd edition style, being competent warriors (having served in battle or traveled the path of the warrior, etc.) and have witchblades/singing spears which would actually do things (2+ to wound is utterly pointless in a game with armour saves).
I'd also dream of a generic three-figure box with which one could make Farseers, Spiritseers and Warlocks with all of the weapon options (similar to the Thousand Sons sorcerers box). You could include a heap of head options (gasp, even lady heads!), and a bunch of arms/weapons (even if you keep the same, incredibly limited wargear options). God forbid we give the players a reasonable kit instead of a handful of uninspiring monopose heroes.
Elbows wrote: In a dream world Farseers and Warlocks would actually return to 2nd edition style, being competent warriors (having served in battle or traveled the path of the warrior, etc.) and have witchblades/singing spears which would actually do things (2+ to wound is utterly pointless in a game with armour saves).
Elbows wrote: In a dream world Farseers and Warlocks would actually return to 2nd edition style, being competent warriors (having served in battle or traveled the path of the warrior, etc.) and have witchblades/singing spears which would actually do things (2+ to wound is utterly pointless in a game with armour saves).
I'd also dream of a generic three-figure box with which one could make Farseers, Spiritseers and Warlocks with all of the weapon options (similar to the Thousand Sons sorcerers box). You could include a heap of head options (gasp, even lady heads!), and a bunch of arms/weapons (even if you keep the same, incredibly limited wargear options). God forbid we give the players a reasonable kit instead of a handful of uninspiring monopose heroes.
This is a fantasy world I'm living in.
This comment made me sad. I agree with everything said. So I too shall live in your fantasy world.
Elbows wrote: In a dream world Farseers and Warlocks would actually return to 2nd edition style, being competent warriors (having served in battle or traveled the path of the warrior, etc.) and have witchblades/singing spears which would actually do things (2+ to wound is utterly pointless in a game with armour saves).
I'd also dream of a generic three-figure box with which one could make Farseers, Spiritseers and Warlocks with all of the weapon options (similar to the Thousand Sons sorcerers box). You could include a heap of head options (gasp, even lady heads!), and a bunch of arms/weapons (even if you keep the same, incredibly limited wargear options). God forbid we give the players a reasonable kit instead of a handful of uninspiring monopose heroes.
This is a fantasy world I'm living in.
Can I apply for citizenship in your fantasy world, or at least a temporary travel visa? It sounds like a wonderful place...
I hate the exalted sorcerer box because instead of getting more diverse characters with different abilities like death guard we just get 3 of the same guy. The box was good in 7th when each sorcerer could take a whole different psychic lore.
Well to be fair psykers take a singular or perhaps 2 max powers these days so it's not a big deal because in most cases only 1 or 2 powers are worth taking anyway.
To fix this GW don't need to add more psychic trees, they need to make all of the powers in a tree useful.
nagash42 wrote: I hate the exalted sorcerer box because instead of getting more diverse characters with different abilities like death guard we just get 3 of the same guy. The box was good in 7th when each sorcerer could take a whole different psychic lore.
So real. I wish Thousand Sons had more variety so much.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Well to be fair psykers take a singular or perhaps 2 max powers these days so it's not a big deal because in most cases only 1 or 2 powers are worth taking anyway.
To fix this GW don't need to add more psychic trees, they need to make all of the powers in a tree useful.
He's talking about Thousand Sons, even if all of their powers were good, the marine side is likely to run out of powers to choose long before they run out of psykers (assuming someones actually running Rubrics).
An Actual Englishman wrote: Well to be fair psykers take a singular or perhaps 2 max powers these days so it's not a big deal because in most cases only 1 or 2 powers are worth taking anyway.
To fix this GW don't need to add more psychic trees, they need to make all of the powers in a tree useful.
He's talking about Thousand Sons, even if all of their powers were good, the marine side is likely to run out of powers to choose long before they run out of psykers (assuming someones actually running Rubrics).
An Actual Englishman wrote: Well to be fair psykers take a singular or perhaps 2 max powers these days so it's not a big deal because in most cases only 1 or 2 powers are worth taking anyway.
To fix this GW don't need to add more psychic trees, they need to make all of the powers in a tree useful.
He's talking about Thousand Sons, even if all of their powers were good, the marine side is likely to run out of powers to choose long before they run out of psykers (assuming someones actually running Rubrics).
I'd also dream of a generic three-figure box with which one could make Farseers, Spiritseers and Warlocks with all of the weapon options (similar to the Thousand Sons sorcerers box). You could include a heap of head options (gasp, even lady heads!),
This is a fantasy world I'm living in.
Tbh bare heads wouldnt make sense. I doubt a woman farseer would pop her ghosthelm off just to show people her feminine hair style.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Well to be fair psykers take a singular or perhaps 2 max powers these days so it's not a big deal because in most cases only 1 or 2 powers are worth taking anyway.
To fix this GW don't need to add more psychic trees, they need to make all of the powers in a tree useful.
He's talking about Thousand Sons, even if all of their powers were good, the marine side is likely to run out of powers to choose long before they run out of psykers (assuming someones actually running Rubrics).
Don't they have 2 trees?
That's double most armies.
when every troop choice you take is potentially a psyker I imagine you can still burn through em pretty fast.
let's take an average "battalion building block" (3 HQs and 3 troops)
A Space Marine army might be 1 Libarian 1 Captain, and 1 Leuitenant, and 3 squads of intercessors.
Meanwhile a 1K sons army might be 1 Sorcrer, 1 Exaulted Sorcrer, and a deamon prince. and 3 squads of Rubric Marines.
The Space Marines generate a grand total of.. 2 powers and can cast 1 per psykic phase.
1K sons meanwhile generate 9 powers and are casting 6 a turn. so even though they've got more powers to choose from an average 1K sons army is casting a LOT more spells.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Well to be fair psykers take a singular or perhaps 2 max powers these days so it's not a big deal because in most cases only 1 or 2 powers are worth taking anyway.
To fix this GW don't need to add more psychic trees, they need to make all of the powers in a tree useful.
He's talking about Thousand Sons, even if all of their powers were good, the marine side is likely to run out of powers to choose long before they run out of psykers (assuming someones actually running Rubrics).
Don't they have 2 trees?
That's double most armies.
when every troop choice you take is potentially a psyker I imagine you can still burn through em pretty fast.
let's take an average "battalion building block" (3 HQs and 3 troops)
A Space Marine army might be 1 Libarian 1 Captain, and 1 Leuitenant, and 3 squads of intercessors.
Meanwhile a 1K sons army might be 1 Sorcrer, 1 Exaulted Sorcrer, and a deamon prince. and 3 squads of Rubric Marines.
The Space Marines generate a grand total of.. 2 powers and can cast 1 per psykic phase.
1K sons meanwhile generate 9 powers and are casting 6 a turn. so even though they've got more powers to choose from an average 1K sons army is casting a LOT more spells.
I'm not sure how often you play but a battalion is 2 HQ and 3 troops.
Either way perhaps their basic troop (and any other basic troop, for that matter) shouldn't be psykers or should have a limited and different set of powers to choose from?
Its seems to me that balancing a troop with innate psychic abilities and one such as grots is virtually impossible. Look at grey knights for reference.
A battalion is 2-3 HQs, and 3-6 troops. I choose 3 HQs because in a 2 HQ list your average space marine list is more apt to have a captain and a Lt rather then a libby.
as for basicly troops being psykers or not, To be honest, I don't disagree at all. say what you want about Mat Ward, but the way squad psyker powers worked for grey Knights in 5th I thought looked pretty solid. certainly better then what we have currently where psyker heavy armies mostly just spam smite
I'd also dream of a generic three-figure box with which one could make Farseers, Spiritseers and Warlocks with all of the weapon options (similar to the Thousand Sons sorcerers box). You could include a heap of head options (gasp, even lady heads!),
This is a fantasy world I'm living in.
Tbh bare heads wouldnt make sense. I doubt a woman farseer would pop her ghosthelm off just to show people her feminine hair style.
In the Dawn of War games most female farseers seem to not be wearing helmets.
BrianDavion wrote: A battalion is 2-3 HQs, and 3-6 troops. I choose 3 HQs because in a 2 HQ list your average space marine list is more apt to have a captain and a Lt rather then a libby.
as for basicly troops being psykers or not, To be honest, I don't disagree at all. say what you want about Mat Ward, but the way squad psyker powers worked for grey Knights in 5th I thought looked pretty solid. certainly better then what we have currently where psyker heavy armies mostly just spam smite
Well the problem is inherent I think - they [psychic units] can be one of the most valuable resources in the game (if they're able to use all of their abilities including denying other powers) or they can be completely pointless (if they fail to deny and get their powers off). That swing is what causes them to be limited in use for a troops choice, in my opinion.
Allow psychic 'troops' a different, more limited and weaker psychic list to choose from, do not give them the ability to deny psychic powers and then price them appropriately.
BrianDavion wrote: A battalion is 2-3 HQs, and 3-6 troops. I choose 3 HQs because in a 2 HQ list your average space marine list is more apt to have a captain and a Lt rather then a libby.
as for basicly troops being psykers or not, To be honest, I don't disagree at all. say what you want about Mat Ward, but the way squad psyker powers worked for grey Knights in 5th I thought looked pretty solid. certainly better then what we have currently where psyker heavy armies mostly just spam smite
Well the problem is inherent I think - they [psychic units] can be one of the most valuable resources in the game (if they're able to use all of their abilities including denying other powers) or they can be completely pointless (if they fail to deny and get their powers off). That swing is what causes them to be limited in use for a troops choice, in my opinion.
Allow psychic 'troops' a different, more limited and weaker psychic list to choose from, do not give them the ability to deny psychic powers and then price them appropriately.
which, IIRC (it's been awhile) what they did with 5E grey knights. each unit got a specific psykic p[ower it could use to buff itself with. it also really allowed GK infantry to be much more unique.
Voss wrote: Eh. DCA seem a little overtuned in the beta codex for 17 point models. Banshees don't need to be rocking 4 attacks each at strength 4, especially with inflicting no overwatch and hit penalties, and a big charge bonus.
Besides the N&R seems a bad place for that kind of comparison, especially with a non-final version of the DCA rules.
DCA have been having stronger profile than Banshees for, what, 5 editions now? Tell me about how it's a beta codex…
Elbows wrote: In a dream world Farseers and Warlocks would actually return to 2nd edition style, being competent warriors (having served in battle or traveled the path of the warrior, etc.) and have witchblades/singing spears which would actually do things (2+ to wound is utterly pointless in a game with armour saves).
Warlocks are perhaps not very competetive, but they are absolutely not useless. Mixed with jinx (-1 to enemy armour rolls) that 2+ to wound and d3 damage can do some real damage for elite units. the warlocks 4++ also make them stand their ground for long enough to take out enemy heroes that think the elves in dresses are easy prey.
Back in 4-5th edition when I started to collect Eldar their game was all about synergy -almost no units were good by them self, but in a well coordinated attack they did wonders.
Avengers shot out most of a unit and aspects moved in to mop up the rest of the unit. all supported by a seer.
Now we have wraith blades that really make all other cc options pointless.
Conclave is overpriced and doesn't have enough attacks or durability, and no sane Eldar player would use Doom or Jinx in melee because these powers are much better used to focus enemy units with shooting attacks.
Eldar in 4th were good by themselves, when their Codex came out, then gradually became worse and worse until it was basically Scatterwalkers and Jetcouncil. Neither they were op in 5th.
Shadenuat wrote: Conclave is overpriced and doesn't have enough attacks or durability, and no sane Eldar player would use Doom or Jinx in melee because these powers are much better used to focus enemy units with shooting attacks.
Eldar in 4th were good by themselves, when their Codex came out, then gradually became worse and worse until it was basically Scatterwalkers and Jetcouncil. Neither they were op in 5th.
Don't forget "Cheeserpents" - few other people will.
Shadenuat wrote: Conclave is overpriced and doesn't have enough attacks or durability, and no sane Eldar player would use Doom or Jinx in melee because these powers are much better used to focus enemy units with shooting attacks.
Eldar in 4th were good by themselves, when their Codex came out, then gradually became worse and worse until it was basically Scatterwalkers and Jetcouncil. Neither they were op in 5th.
Don't forget "Cheeserpents" - few other people will.
Look, I was going through some serious stuff, it was years ago, and I’ve since mastered personal hygiene.
I'd also dream of a generic three-figure box with which one could make Farseers, Spiritseers and Warlocks with all of the weapon options (similar to the Thousand Sons sorcerers box). You could include a heap of head options (gasp, even lady heads!),
This is a fantasy world I'm living in.
Tbh bare heads wouldnt make sense. I doubt a woman farseer would pop her ghosthelm off just to show people her feminine hair style.
Yeah, it's not like best, most recent farseer design has bare he--
If you aren't Ork Boyzs level of number of attacks per points you are worthless as a meele unit.
This is more or less the problem. Special rules and slightly better armour/weapons simply do not compensate for cost+number of attacks. GW basically screwed this element up in the game as a whole and have yet to fix it (and I don't think they will). A 11-12 point Banshee with two strength 3 attacks...is simply worse than a 7 point model with 3-7 attacks. Armour and weapons do not matter enough to balance out that equation.
Banshees speed, denial of overwatch etc...still doesn't make up for spending 107 points on eight Toughness 3 models with 4+ armour who die to a stiff breeze. The fundamental focus of extra attacks, extra re-rolls, extra fighting or shooting phases, etc. is wildly overdone in 40K at the moment, turning the game into mass dice over any form of quality/elite unit potential.
There's also the issue of fallback with little to no consequence. I want to petition for a new rule where you get basically Overwatch hits sorta except with melee of course.
There's also the issue of fallback with little to no consequence. I want to petition for a new rule where you get basically Overwatch hits sorta except with melee of course.
There's also the issue of fallback with little to no consequence. I want to petition for a new rule where you get basically Overwatch hits sorta except with melee of course.
Yes! This should absolutely be a thing.
Agreed, I was going to raise this when we were discussing the volume of melee attacks required to be useful and that Ork Boys must first cross the board, survive overwatch and make the charge roll before those attacks do anything. Firing a ranged weapon is obviously a much easier exercise and actually a lot more likely to be successful. I also think there should be a reverse overwatch mechanic for melee.
How much it would in practice matter though? Especially if it's overwatch style so hit on 6's. Either unit retreating is crippled survivors just to let you be shot or tough enough that hitting on 6's doesn't make it worry much.
At least for me it's never been "oh if only I could attack once more" when they fall back. It's more like "oh crap now I get blown to bits"
I'd also dream of a generic three-figure box with which one could make Farseers, Spiritseers and Warlocks with all of the weapon options (similar to the Thousand Sons sorcerers box). You could include a heap of head options (gasp, even lady heads!),
This is a fantasy world I'm living in.
Tbh bare heads wouldnt make sense. I doubt a woman farseer would pop her ghosthelm off just to show people her feminine hair style.
Yeah, it's not like best, most recent farseer design has bare he--
And this is my one gripe with this Eldar refresh, maybe DoW3 was a bad game but its Eldar reinterpretation was stunning. Both new farseer design and bony, scary looking banshees that actually looked like encased in warp grown armour were vastly better refresh base than a decade old concept art, pity GW didn't use it...
tneva82 wrote: How much it would in practice matter though? Especially if it's overwatch style so hit on 6's. Either unit retreating is crippled survivors just to let you be shot or tough enough that hitting on 6's doesn't make it worry much.
At least for me it's never been "oh if only I could attack once more" when they fall back. It's more like "oh crap now I get blown to bits"
What's funny is that had they kept initiative it would have worked beautifully with the fall back mechanic. You take compared initiative rolls and if you fail, you can't fall back.
That's a much better system than free fall backs. The whole "no shooting when falling back" thing is only really relevant in small games, which leads me to think that GW only playtests with 500 pts or something.
I never liked how overwatch was free shooting; everyone's guns suddenly gain extra ammunition and fire faster if someone looks like they might run towards them (though they might stay still, if the charge fails). I wish overwatch was more accurate (like, -1 to hit instead of auto 6s) but then that unit couldn't shoot the next turn at all.
tneva82 wrote: How much it would in practice matter though? Especially if it's overwatch style so hit on 6's. Either unit retreating is crippled survivors just to let you be shot or tough enough that hitting on 6's doesn't make it worry much.
At least for me it's never been "oh if only I could attack once more" when they fall back. It's more like "oh crap now I get blown to bits"
What's funny is that had they kept initiative it would have worked beautifully with the fall back mechanic. You take compared initiative rolls and if you fail, you can't fall back.
That's a much better system than free fall backs. The whole "no shooting when falling back" thing is only really relevant in small games, which leads me to think that GW only playtests with 500 pts or something.
I think it's more likely their playtests are based entirely on very relaxed casual games and things more about a narrative than playing the game. Rather than proper playtesting with people actively trying to take every advantage they can.
tneva82 wrote: How much it would in practice matter though? Especially if it's overwatch style so hit on 6's. Either unit retreating is crippled survivors just to let you be shot or tough enough that hitting on 6's doesn't make it worry much.
At least for me it's never been "oh if only I could attack once more" when they fall back. It's more like "oh crap now I get blown to bits"
What's funny is that had they kept initiative it would have worked beautifully with the fall back mechanic. You take compared initiative rolls and if you fail, you can't fall back.
That's a much better system than free fall backs. The whole "no shooting when falling back" thing is only really relevant in small games, which leads me to think that GW only playtests with 500 pts or something.
I think it's more likely their playtests are based entirely on very relaxed casual games and things more about a narrative than playing the game. Rather than proper playtesting with people actively trying to take every advantage they can.
the way GW plays/designed the game is antithetical to competitive/tourney/REMOVED - Stop circumventing the language filter please style of play.
I'll reiterate that they need a specific tourney ruleset as it would cut down on the bleed over from comp into the rest of the game.
tneva82 wrote: How much it would in practice matter though? Especially if it's overwatch style so hit on 6's. Either unit retreating is crippled survivors just to let you be shot or tough enough that hitting on 6's doesn't make it worry much.
At least for me it's never been "oh if only I could attack once more" when they fall back. It's more like "oh crap now I get blown to bits"
What's funny is that had they kept initiative it would have worked beautifully with the fall back mechanic. You take compared initiative rolls and if you fail, you can't fall back.
That's a much better system than free fall backs. The whole "no shooting when falling back" thing is only really relevant in small games, which leads me to think that GW only playtests with 500 pts or something.
I think it's more likely their playtests are based entirely on very relaxed casual games and things more about a narrative than playing the game. Rather than proper playtesting with people actively trying to take every advantage they can.
the way GW plays/designed the game is antithetical to competitive/tourney/REMOVED - STOP IT PLEASE style of play.
I'll reiterate that they need a specific tourney ruleset as it would cut down on the bleed over from comp into the rest of the game.
I thought there was supposed to be a whole bunch of tournament players as playtesters?
Having done a bit of playtesting you do have to get into a different mindset when testing than playing the game - its more How do i break the game
The problem is in casual games the problems should stick out even more. In a competitive setting you will always see top tier units on the table, because competitive players know what to pick. But I have had plenty of casual games with casual Daemon lists in which I got blown to bits in 2 rounds of battle against casual shooting armies.
I honestly do think GWs balance is absolutely crap for casual players. Unless casual means wanting to have boring games.
I thought there was supposed to be a whole bunch of tournament players as playtesters?
Having done a bit of playtesting you do have to get into a different mindset when testing than playing the game - its more How do i break the game
There is but their effect in the system isn't(by their own words) as big as people generally seem to think. Indeed I think I remember them saying it's basically they get army lists(and rules) to try out and tell comments. So rather than getting full rules and points and try to break it seems they get predetermined army lists and rules relevant. Not way most companies would approach playtesting I suppose.
(mind you last part I'm not 100% sure. I do however clearly remember them noting about their effect in the process)
Having a balanced casual game is harder than having a competitive one; you say 'hey let's do a competitive game' and the forces that show up are likely to be in the same ballpark. You say 'hey let's do a non-competitive game' and who knows what you'll get. Unless you know the opponent well enough that you're both on the same page, it adds a whole extra step of hashing out how strong the lists will be (hopefully there isn't a disagreement) before one gets to actually play. Not fun.
Mr Morden wrote: I thought there was supposed to be a whole bunch of tournament players as playtesters?
You're assuming that A) said tournament players would go for your typical a-hole wombo combos and strats instead of going extra polite to not offend their GW contact in an attempt to give them what they wanted (or the tester thought they wanted), and B) even if they did, you'd still need GW writers to listen to issues of 'mere' outside playtesters, especially when writer 'knows' the rules don't have said issue, but wrote them poorly or forgot to change things. That could prove to be even bigger problem, especially with these with long time aboard and big ego, or that certain pair trying to prove time and time again they both don't understand basic math.
Funny thing is, during 5th edition, 'beta' GK codex leaked. It was ripped to shreds because it had 5 or 6 kinda (debatably) OP things - and then, 3 weeks ago, full codex dropped, and every single thing people whined about was fixed or toned down, along with half a dozen complainers missed. Just shows how much of a difference competent writer can do even without external help...
Funny thing is, during 5th edition, 'beta' GK codex leaked. It was ripped to shreds because it had 5 or 6 kinda (debatably) OP things - and then, 3 weeks ago, full codex dropped, and every single thing people whined about was fixed or toned down, along with half a dozen complainers missed. Just shows how much of a difference competent writer can do even without external help...
Or that the "beta" codex was flat out made up junk like the "leaked" new rulebook for 6th or 7th ed. People make all sort of fake stuff. Supposed beta codex? Hardly big thing to do.
tneva82 wrote: How much it would in practice matter though? Especially if it's overwatch style so hit on 6's. Either unit retreating is crippled survivors just to let you be shot or tough enough that hitting on 6's doesn't make it worry much.
At least for me it's never been "oh if only I could attack once more" when they fall back. It's more like "oh crap now I get blown to bits"
What's funny is that had they kept initiative it would have worked beautifully with the fall back mechanic. You take compared initiative rolls and if you fail, you can't fall back.
That's a much better system than free fall backs. The whole "no shooting when falling back" thing is only really relevant in small games, which leads me to think that GW only playtests with 500 pts or something.
Initiative wouldn't solve that problem one bit - most shooting armies have high initiative while close combat armies have low initiative. This was already a major problem during previous editions.
But I agree, some sort of punishment or risk needs to be attached to falling back. For 95% of all fights, there is zero incentive to not fall back from a unit that charged you whenever possible.
tneva82 wrote: How much it would in practice matter though? Especially if it's overwatch style so hit on 6's. Either unit retreating is crippled survivors just to let you be shot or tough enough that hitting on 6's doesn't make it worry much.
At least for me it's never been "oh if only I could attack once more" when they fall back. It's more like "oh crap now I get blown to bits"
Overwatch really doesn't matter in practice, but it makes a lot of sense as a mechanic.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Having a balanced casual game is harder than having a competitive one; you say 'hey let's do a competitive game' and the forces that show up are likely to be in the same ballpark. You say 'hey let's do a non-competitive game' and who knows what you'll get. Unless you know the opponent well enough that you're both on the same page, it adds a whole extra step of hashing out how strong the lists will be (hopefully there isn't a disagreement) before one gets to actually play. Not fun.
True, but a game that's balanced for competitive play "only" requires some kind gentleman's agreement to make it work for a group of people - and we all know this is already a challenge.
A game that's imbalanced at its core requires you to add house-rules, additional restrictions and lots of arguments to even make that possible, and the vast majority of people is worse at writing rules than GW is, plus you will get bad blood over turning down someone else's army.
tneva82 wrote: How much it would in practice matter though? Especially if it's overwatch style so hit on 6's. Either unit retreating is crippled survivors just to let you be shot or tough enough that hitting on 6's doesn't make it worry much.
At least for me it's never been "oh if only I could attack once more" when they fall back. It's more like "oh crap now I get blown to bits"
Overwatch really doesn't matter in practice, but it makes a lot of sense as a mechanic.
I disagree, overwatch makes a huge difference in many of my games. The best example would be a high rate of fire units like redemptor dreadnoughts, agressors or repulsors, which is almost suicidal to charge with a unit of boyz, or units that have multiple high damage, high strength shots, where you can't take the risk of having them shoot down a character like a DP or warboss.
Maybe it depends on what army you are running?
tneva82 wrote: Or that the "beta" codex was flat out made up junk like the "leaked" new rulebook for 6th or 7th ed. People make all sort of fake stuff. Supposed beta codex? Hardly big thing to do.
Which? The 5th edition GK one? It actually shown people Dreadknight and new psycannons for the first time, so it physically couldn't be made up. That was actually one of the biggest leaks in GW history barring 8th edition and outside playtesters leaking stuff, genuine internal Codex draft with rough layout and revision directions, which is why I remember it so well.
beta does mean just that, sometimes things get caught othertimes they don't, I've never tested for GW but the few times I've beta tested for other games I can often point to one or two things and say "I contributed to this change"
tneva82 wrote: How much it would in practice matter though? Especially if it's overwatch style so hit on 6's. Either unit retreating is crippled survivors just to let you be shot or tough enough that hitting on 6's doesn't make it worry much.
At least for me it's never been "oh if only I could attack once more" when they fall back. It's more like "oh crap now I get blown to bits"
Overwatch really doesn't matter in practice, but it makes a lot of sense as a mechanic.
Tell that to my Knight, who subsequently exploded, taking out another Knight, a bunch of Marines, and ending Girylman's first life.
tneva82 wrote: How much it would in practice matter though? Especially if it's overwatch style so hit on 6's. Either unit retreating is crippled survivors just to let you be shot or tough enough that hitting on 6's doesn't make it worry much.
At least for me it's never been "oh if only I could attack once more" when they fall back. It's more like "oh crap now I get blown to bits"
What's funny is that had they kept initiative it would have worked beautifully with the fall back mechanic. You take compared initiative rolls and if you fail, you can't fall back.
That's a much better system than free fall backs. The whole "no shooting when falling back" thing is only really relevant in small games, which leads me to think that GW only playtests with 500 pts or something.
Initiative wouldn't solve that problem one bit - most shooting armies have high initiative while close combat armies have low initiative. This was already a major problem during previous editions.
But I agree, some sort of punishment or risk needs to be attached to falling back. For 95% of all fights, there is zero incentive to not fall back from a unit that charged you whenever possible.
Necrons had low I. Tau had low I. IG had lowish I.
The fact that your Orks had low I doesn't mean other melee armies did too.
tneva82 wrote: How much it would in practice matter though? Especially if it's overwatch style so hit on 6's. Either unit retreating is crippled survivors just to let you be shot or tough enough that hitting on 6's doesn't make it worry much.
At least for me it's never been "oh if only I could attack once more" when they fall back. It's more like "oh crap now I get blown to bits"
Overwatch really doesn't matter in practice, but it makes a lot of sense as a mechanic.
Tell that to my Knight, who subsequently exploded, taking out another Knight, a bunch of Marines, and ending Girylman's first life.
I honestly couldn't care less about a little bad luck you had for one game.
tneva82 wrote: How much it would in practice matter though? Especially if it's overwatch style so hit on 6's. Either unit retreating is crippled survivors just to let you be shot or tough enough that hitting on 6's doesn't make it worry much.
At least for me it's never been "oh if only I could attack once more" when they fall back. It's more like "oh crap now I get blown to bits"
What's funny is that had they kept initiative it would have worked beautifully with the fall back mechanic. You take compared initiative rolls and if you fail, you can't fall back.
That's a much better system than free fall backs. The whole "no shooting when falling back" thing is only really relevant in small games, which leads me to think that GW only playtests with 500 pts or something.
Initiative wouldn't solve that problem one bit - most shooting armies have high initiative while close combat armies have low initiative. This was already a major problem during previous editions.
But I agree, some sort of punishment or risk needs to be attached to falling back. For 95% of all fights, there is zero incentive to not fall back from a unit that charged you whenever possible.
Necrons had low I. Tau had low I. IG had lowish I.
The fact that your Orks had low I doesn't mean other melee armies did too.
the only shooting army I can think of with a high I was Eldar. and thats assuming you call eldar a shooting army
AlmightyWalrus wrote: The fact that your Orks had low I doesn't mean other melee armies did too.
Many big nidz had low initiative, as did many non-slanesh daemons. If you are trying to fix combat for Marines and Eldar only, might as well not do it.
BrianDavion wrote: the only shooting army I can think of with a high I was Eldar. and thats assuming you call eldar a shooting army
Uh, how about all of the space marines, which is almost half the armies in existence? Tau drones were also I4, which would be good enough to escape combat reliably.
And of course, I'd call craftworld eldar a shooting army, I haven't seen anything from them going into melee voluntarily that was not shining spears or a wraith construct in a long time.
? rather have interesting / cool models than more gak lke Centurions or Santa Logan.
