The I of Melee Daemons (mostly Khorne and Slaanesh) was perfectly fine. The problem was being reduced to I 1 after charging into terrain. But in my opinion the new system is pretty good.
Overwatch is super relevant with things like Tau, high range flame weapons, and armies which hit on 5 and 6. Charging units can get obliterated by Overwatch.
I agree there should be more rules to stop the enemy from falling back or to save the unit which was in melee. Easiest fix would be to disallow shooting units which have been in melee at the start of the player turn. Or it could require LD tests with 2 D6 to fall back, same rule as if Skarbrand or the Contorted Epitome was there, just 1 D6 less.
Uh, how about all of the space marines, which is almost half the armies in existence?
I don't consider space marines exclusivly a shooting army, they've always been intended to be capable in CQC
Even Primaris can be considered “punchy but underequipped” in that sense. They have their statlines all ready and setup to do some damage, just awaiting a unit that’s both mobile and has some ap in assault.
I like 2nd ed fallback. Doesn't slow the game down (AKA the 8th ed Overwatch problem), is impactful, allows for things like tanks to not get stopped shooting by things like gretchins.
It can't translate directly to 8th because no dueling statlines anymore, but you can easily do something similar. Here's my rule:
-At the end of the charge phase, the opposing player may select any number of units within 1" of enemy models to fall back. These units make a normal move that must end with all models in the unit not within 1" of any enemy models.
Before any fall back moves are made, any enemy units with models within 1" may choose to activate and Fight those units, and they re-roll all wound rolls when they do so. Units that fall back may not be selected to Fight during the normal Fight phase.
I chose re-roll wounds in place of "fights with WS0" because it results in the biggest increase in damage versus heavier targets like tanks. I would completely remove the current system of not being able to fall back and shoot the next turn and FLY keyword granting immunity to that. Supersonic units would simply be allowed to leave combat at will during the movement phase with no penalty. I would also remove the current 8th edition incarnation of Overwatch.
the_scotsman wrote: I like 2nd ed fallback. Doesn't slow the game down (AKA the 8th ed Overwatch problem), is impactful, allows for things like tanks to not get stopped shooting by things like gretchins.
It can't translate directly to 8th because no dueling statlines anymore, but you can easily do something similar. Here's my rule:
-At the end of the charge phase, the opposing player may select any number of units within 1" of enemy models to fall back. These units make a normal move that must end with all models in the unit not within 1" of any enemy models.
Before any fall back moves are made, any enemy units with models within 1" may choose to activate and Fight those units, and they re-roll all wound rolls when they do so. Units that fall back may not be selected to Fight during the normal Fight phase.
I chose re-roll wounds in place of "fights with WS0" because it results in the biggest increase in damage versus heavier targets like tanks. I would completely remove the current system of not being able to fall back and shoot the next turn and FLY keyword granting immunity to that. Supersonic units would simply be allowed to leave combat at will during the movement phase with no penalty. I would also remove the current 8th edition incarnation of Overwatch.
What problem? I've been playing 8th since launch and never once have I encountered an issue with Overwatch slowing down the game. Is this actually an issue people have been having?
Uh, how about all of the space marines, which is almost half the armies in existence?
I don't consider space marines exclusivly a shooting army, they've always been intended to be capable in CQC
that is why two of the three doctrines apply to just dakka?
Most strength comes from these two due to beeing easily achievable states?
i mean we can all agree what marines should be, generalists, what marines are atm is however something completely diffrent.
Not only that, but you can't start in the Assault Doctrine either.
Ding ding ding, candidate won 100 pts.
Which makes melee, an allready disadvantagous mechanic, even worse, even for the supposed generalists. Which probably makes white scar players sad.
Which frankly put is a bit ironical, that you have to switch through doctrines like at all. Personally should've been handled that you pick one and get that one for the rest of the game.
But alas, i guess SM players can be happy that they did get indeed an update overall, and not just a moneygrab
the_scotsman wrote: I like 2nd ed fallback. Doesn't slow the game down (AKA the 8th ed Overwatch problem), is impactful, allows for things like tanks to not get stopped shooting by things like gretchins.
It can't translate directly to 8th because no dueling statlines anymore, but you can easily do something similar. Here's my rule:
-At the end of the charge phase, the opposing player may select any number of units within 1" of enemy models to fall back. These units make a normal move that must end with all models in the unit not within 1" of any enemy models.
Before any fall back moves are made, any enemy units with models within 1" may choose to activate and Fight those units, and they re-roll all wound rolls when they do so. Units that fall back may not be selected to Fight during the normal Fight phase.
I chose re-roll wounds in place of "fights with WS0" because it results in the biggest increase in damage versus heavier targets like tanks. I would completely remove the current system of not being able to fall back and shoot the next turn and FLY keyword granting immunity to that. Supersonic units would simply be allowed to leave combat at will during the movement phase with no penalty. I would also remove the current 8th edition incarnation of Overwatch.
What problem? I've been playing 8th since launch and never once have I encountered an issue with Overwatch slowing down the game. Is this actually an issue people have been having?
Some claim it is too little influential and just is some dicerolling.
However there are armies out there that get half or full shooting phases out of it. So it's a bit of an ironic statement.
the_scotsman wrote: I like 2nd ed fallback. Doesn't slow the game down (AKA the 8th ed Overwatch problem), is impactful, allows for things like tanks to not get stopped shooting by things like gretchins.
It can't translate directly to 8th because no dueling statlines anymore, but you can easily do something similar. Here's my rule:
-At the end of the charge phase, the opposing player may select any number of units within 1" of enemy models to fall back. These units make a normal move that must end with all models in the unit not within 1" of any enemy models.
Before any fall back moves are made, any enemy units with models within 1" may choose to activate and Fight those units, and they re-roll all wound rolls when they do so. Units that fall back may not be selected to Fight during the normal Fight phase.
I chose re-roll wounds in place of "fights with WS0" because it results in the biggest increase in damage versus heavier targets like tanks. I would completely remove the current system of not being able to fall back and shoot the next turn and FLY keyword granting immunity to that. Supersonic units would simply be allowed to leave combat at will during the movement phase with no penalty. I would also remove the current 8th edition incarnation of Overwatch.
What problem? I've been playing 8th since launch and never once have I encountered an issue with Overwatch slowing down the game. Is this actually an issue people have been having?
By all technicality, it does slow the game down because it is a step in the process that adds dice rolls. However, like you, I've not seen this as an issue. Both players should know this step will occur and have said dice ready to roll.
The only time it slows down the game in any meaningful way is when 1 or both players don't know how to roll properly
the_scotsman wrote: I like 2nd ed fallback. Doesn't slow the game down (AKA the 8th ed Overwatch problem), is impactful, allows for things like tanks to not get stopped shooting by things like gretchins.
It can't translate directly to 8th because no dueling statlines anymore, but you can easily do something similar. Here's my rule:
-At the end of the charge phase, the opposing player may select any number of units within 1" of enemy models to fall back. These units make a normal move that must end with all models in the unit not within 1" of any enemy models.
Before any fall back moves are made, any enemy units with models within 1" may choose to activate and Fight those units, and they re-roll all wound rolls when they do so. Units that fall back may not be selected to Fight during the normal Fight phase.
I chose re-roll wounds in place of "fights with WS0" because it results in the biggest increase in damage versus heavier targets like tanks. I would completely remove the current system of not being able to fall back and shoot the next turn and FLY keyword granting immunity to that. Supersonic units would simply be allowed to leave combat at will during the movement phase with no penalty. I would also remove the current 8th edition incarnation of Overwatch.
What problem? I've been playing 8th since launch and never once have I encountered an issue with Overwatch slowing down the game. Is this actually an issue people have been having?
By all technicality, it does slow the game down because it is a step in the process that adds dice rolls. However, like you, I've not seen this as an issue. Both players should know this step will occur and have said dice ready to roll.
The only time it slows down the game in any meaningful way is when 1 or both players don't know how to roll properly
-
Hmm, I'm not sure. It might be fun to play a game without Overwatch and see if the time difference is significant.
Uh, how about all of the space marines, which is almost half the armies in existence?
I don't consider space marines exclusivly a shooting army, they've always been intended to be capable in CQC
Most units in most marine armies that have been played in the last four editions were primarily focused on shooting, with some exceptional elite units like terminators, thunderwolves and sanguine guard doing most of the combat. If marines are a close combat army, so are necrons, imperial guard and admech.
the_scotsman wrote: I like 2nd ed fallback. Doesn't slow the game down (AKA the 8th ed Overwatch problem), is impactful, allows for things like tanks to not get stopped shooting by things like gretchins.
It can't translate directly to 8th because no dueling statlines anymore, but you can easily do something similar. Here's my rule:
-At the end of the charge phase, the opposing player may select any number of units within 1" of enemy models to fall back. These units make a normal move that must end with all models in the unit not within 1" of any enemy models.
Before any fall back moves are made, any enemy units with models within 1" may choose to activate and Fight those units, and they re-roll all wound rolls when they do so. Units that fall back may not be selected to Fight during the normal Fight phase.
I chose re-roll wounds in place of "fights with WS0" because it results in the biggest increase in damage versus heavier targets like tanks. I would completely remove the current system of not being able to fall back and shoot the next turn and FLY keyword granting immunity to that. Supersonic units would simply be allowed to leave combat at will during the movement phase with no penalty. I would also remove the current 8th edition incarnation of Overwatch.
What problem? I've been playing 8th since launch and never once have I encountered an issue with Overwatch slowing down the game. Is this actually an issue people have been having?
By all technicality, it does slow the game down because it is a step in the process that adds dice rolls. However, like you, I've not seen this as an issue. Both players should know this step will occur and have said dice ready to roll.
The only time it slows down the game in any meaningful way is when 1 or both players don't know how to roll properly
-
Hmm, I'm not sure. It might be fun to play a game without Overwatch and see if the time difference is significant.
I didn't see an issue with it until I played a game of new apoc and a game of 40k versus Salamanders back to back.
In Apoc:
-My unit deep strikes 9" away. Enemy units shoot it, dealing damage. The unit then moves 2x its move distance, one model comes into contact with an enemy and the unit makes its attacks.
at the end of the turn, damage is resolved against my unit and the enemy unit it hit.
In 40k:
I move my unit in the movement phase.
In the shooting phase, I resolve my 10 dice of pistol attacks.
In the charge phase, I declare a charge with the unit. The enemy units I declare against then roll to hit, then re-roll 1s for a captain, then re-roll 1 hit because they're salamanders. Then roll wounds. Then re-roll 1s for a lieutenant. Then re-roll 1 wound because they're salamanders.
Then I roll 2 dice, measure and move my unit a second time, then I pile in, measure and move a third time, determine which models can fight which involves measuring, roll my attacks, then move a fourth time.
Then my opponent fights. Rerolls 1s for captain. Rerolls for salamanders. Rerolls for lieutenant....
The process of measuring, moving, and resolving all of one unit's gak all at once and having to deal with picking up, rolling, and re-rolling 10x less dice makes a HUGE difference in apoc, and led to me realizing just how much time in 40k is spent on the "Figure out what happens" side of things and how little is spent on "Make a decision."
So can we just stick to cool new posts about Psychic Awakening? Having to wade through pages of meta gaming nonsense is getting tedious. Maybe move that to the appropriate forum not titled Psychic Awakening N&R".
the_scotsman wrote: I like 2nd ed fallback. Doesn't slow the game down (AKA the 8th ed Overwatch problem), is impactful, allows for things like tanks to not get stopped shooting by things like gretchins.
It can't translate directly to 8th because no dueling statlines anymore, but you can easily do something similar. Here's my rule:
-At the end of the charge phase, the opposing player may select any number of units within 1" of enemy models to fall back. These units make a normal move that must end with all models in the unit not within 1" of any enemy models.
Before any fall back moves are made, any enemy units with models within 1" may choose to activate and Fight those units, and they re-roll all wound rolls when they do so. Units that fall back may not be selected to Fight during the normal Fight phase.
I chose re-roll wounds in place of "fights with WS0" because it results in the biggest increase in damage versus heavier targets like tanks. I would completely remove the current system of not being able to fall back and shoot the next turn and FLY keyword granting immunity to that. Supersonic units would simply be allowed to leave combat at will during the movement phase with no penalty. I would also remove the current 8th edition incarnation of Overwatch.
What problem? I've been playing 8th since launch and never once have I encountered an issue with Overwatch slowing down the game. Is this actually an issue people have been having?
By all technicality, it does slow the game down because it is a step in the process that adds dice rolls. However, like you, I've not seen this as an issue. Both players should know this step will occur and have said dice ready to roll.
The only time it slows down the game in any meaningful way is when 1 or both players don't know how to roll properly
-
Hmm, I'm not sure. It might be fun to play a game without Overwatch and see if the time difference is significant.
I didn't see an issue with it until I played a game of new apoc and a game of 40k versus Salamanders back to back.
In Apoc:
-My unit deep strikes 9" away. Enemy units shoot it, dealing damage. The unit then moves 2x its move distance, one model comes into contact with an enemy and the unit makes its attacks.
at the end of the turn, damage is resolved against my unit and the enemy unit it hit.
In 40k:
I move my unit in the movement phase.
In the shooting phase, I resolve my 10 dice of pistol attacks.
In the charge phase, I declare a charge with the unit. The enemy units I declare against then roll to hit, then re-roll 1s for a captain, then re-roll 1 hit because they're salamanders. Then roll wounds. Then re-roll 1s for a lieutenant. Then re-roll 1 wound because they're salamanders.
Then I roll 2 dice, measure and move my unit a second time, then I pile in, measure and move a third time, determine which models can fight which involves measuring, roll my attacks, then move a fourth time.
Then my opponent fights. Rerolls 1s for captain. Rerolls for salamanders. Rerolls for lieutenant....
The process of measuring, moving, and resolving all of one unit's gak all at once and having to deal with picking up, rolling, and re-rolling 10x less dice makes a HUGE difference in apoc, and led to me realizing just how much time in 40k is spent on the "Figure out what happens" side of things and how little is spent on "Make a decision."
They need to remove rerolls entirely from the game, change the rule so that what you roll is what you get. Period.
She's... okay. I can see why they haven't updated aspect warriors. I'm thinking none of the sculptors really had any really good ideas or inspiration for the new models.
As much as I like that they are FINALLY releasing Plastic Aspects, WTF is with the slow drip and the one mini reveal per week? Just release the whole shebang already!
They are doing that with Marines too. The Codex came out a month ago and Impulsors STILL aren't released.
Albino Squirrel wrote: She's... okay. I can see why they haven't updated aspect warriors. I'm thinking none of the sculptors really had any really good ideas or inspiration for the new models.
I mean, the originals have really stood the test of time in terms of the design.
Sculpt quality is really the only place it's been a letdown when compared to newer offerings.
Not completely sold on the ribbons on the Blade of Destruction. I get that she's sweeping it in front of her, but it looks disruptive to the flow of the model. Although it could just be that I'm misinterpreting a dynamic model from a still photo (the video didn't help much, frankly). Other than that, very fond of it.
Albino Squirrel wrote: She's... okay. I can see why they haven't updated aspect warriors. I'm thinking none of the sculptors really had any really good ideas or inspiration for the new models.
Isn't Jes on the record saying exactly that? The reason they hadn't been updated in much capacity was that nobody in the studio was particularly interested in revisiting them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Jain Zar is looking pretty good against hordes. Too bad we have to wait until next Monday for her counter part.
Honestly, I think it's a step down for her overall in power.
Disarming Strike made Jain extremely good at fighting certain types of enemy characters who relied on a particular weapon to deal damage. The number of models that had two weapons good enough to beat Jain was pretty slim. Her only real useless ability was the "Fight last" thing - disarm was really good.
Storm of Silence seems like kind of a "noob stomper" ability. Great against someone who doesn't know how to position their models. Not great against a competent enemy. Especially now that it seems shes on at least a 32mm base.
but, eh. A footslogging named character melee model with no useful aura is a casual piece only in 8th anyway, so I guess it's fine that she has a sort of noobstomper ability.
Model's fine IMO. I have the old one, probably won't pick up the new one just to have an updated piece on the table. Unless the banshees' rules are really good, I can see this being something of a poor selling release for GW. It doesn't seem like any of the models being released have anything new ruleswise that fixes the fundamental problems non-fly melee footsloggers suffer in 8th.
Nothing is really going to fundamentally change the fact that these are models that cost more than 3x the cost of a guardsman, need a transport to arrive in combat turn 2, and have no way to get past screens so will just trade their lives for 4-8pts of cheap chaff before getting hosed off the table (that is, if their transport isn't popped turn 1 so they do absolutely nothing).
The older one was so bad and this is so good in comparison. The movement is fluid and dynamic, particularly with the intelligent use of the wrappings flowing from the Spear. The face looks great and actually intimidating, the pose is well formed.
I really like this model - my only minor complaint if I was nitpicking is that the hair is a bit too long for me.
I like the Storm of Silence rule too but I'm not sure she should have lost the Disarming Strike ability - it was one of her more powerful tools against certain models. I hope more models get a rule similar to Storm of Silence, it rewards good play and punishes bad.
Interesting that Jain Zar is now working with Ynnari. This is also an update for them, then.
The update itself is a little meagre however, there's just not enough there for a week's worth of wait. I fear this Psychic Awakening is going to take an incredibly long time and I may lose interest before my faction is the focus.
The whole "suspened by hair" thing is super weird. But it's still an improvement.
The whole wait a week thing is getting old. I feel like it's near certain the "nemesis" is Drahzar and I doubt I'm alone in that so why wait a whole week?
Edit: Anyone else thinking just lopping off the end of the hair and attaching her foot to the rubble?
Galef wrote: As much as I like that they are FINALLY releasing Plastic Aspects, WTF is with the slow drip and the one mini reveal per week? Just release the whole shebang already!-
I'm 99% sure that the reason they're only revealing one mini per week is that they've got so few new minis to reveal.
I suspect by this time next week we'll have seen the entirety of the new Eldar/DE models. All four of them.
Can't say I am a fan of the model. Will have to see more from other angles before I pass final judgement, but for now. Eh. Also the Ink Quil boots she has are awful.
Model looks okay. Doesn't blow me away, and is off the buy list mainly due to flimsy-flailing-fragile pieces syndrome, something I expected. Maybe could be cut/chopped to be on a normal base, and clip the banner tassles, etc.
Her new rule is definitely more useful..maybe? Depends on what you're attacking I suppose. I really hope that's not the only change to her stats/profile, but I suspect it may be. This'll mean, as a Phoenix Lord, she'll still be pretty mediocre/useless in most games.
PS: Note she has way more hair than even the older model...so it's just been growing out for the past 25 years.
Tbh given they gave us artwork of her fighting drazhar, the "omg you'll never guess who we have next!" Is a little deflating. I wish they'd just done both today.
Dudeface wrote: Tbh given they gave us artwork of her fighting drazhar, the "omg you'll never guess who we have next!" Is a little deflating. I wish they'd just done both today.
To be honest, if you weren't someone who found the artwork via a forum like this where we had an image literally labeled with Drazhar's name via Warhammer Art's website?
You wouldn't know.
They pulled the image off Warhammer Art's website now and the only place it's posted is the Community "Artwork Sighted" bit, where it's not labeled with Drazhar.
Galef wrote: As much as I like that they are FINALLY releasing Plastic Aspects, WTF is with the slow drip and the one mini reveal per week? Just release the whole shebang already!-
I'm 99% sure that the reason they're only revealing one mini per week is that they've got so few new minis to reveal.
I suspect by this time next week we'll have seen the entirety of the new Eldar/DE models. All four of them.
Xenos entitlement strikes again. You're 0.4% of sales so you get four models.
Seriously though, I think Jain Zar looks amazing. She's always been one of my favourite designs and the new mini will look super dynamic "in the flesh".
Dudeface wrote: Tbh given they gave us artwork of her fighting drazhar, the "omg you'll never guess who we have next!" Is a little deflating. I wish they'd just done both today.
To be honest, if you weren't someone who found the artwork via a forum like this where we had an image literally labeled with Drazhar's name via Warhammer Art's website?
You wouldn't know.
They pulled the image off Warhammer Art's website now and the only place it's posted is the Community "Artwork Sighted" bit, where it's not labeled with Drazhar.
Apart from the fact that they've so far gone Banshee, Incubi, Jain Zar, ???. It seems pretty clear what's next and the art is a load of Banshees and Incubi.
Dudeface wrote: Tbh given they gave us artwork of her fighting drazhar, the "omg you'll never guess who we have next!" Is a little deflating. I wish they'd just done both today.
To be honest, if you weren't someone who found the artwork via a forum like this where we had an image literally labeled with Drazhar's name via Warhammer Art's website?
You wouldn't know.
They pulled the image off Warhammer Art's website now and the only place it's posted is the Community "Artwork Sighted" bit, where it's not labeled with Drazhar.
TheFleshIsWeak wrote: I'm 99% sure that the reason they're only revealing one mini per week is that they've got so few new minis to reveal.
I suspect by this time next week we'll have seen the entirety of the new Eldar/DE models. All four of them.
Well technically there are likely going to be 5 Incubi and Banshees so 12 in total.
But yea, 4 units' worth, 2 for Eldar and 2 for Dark Eldar just shows the discrepancy between Imperium and Chaos model releases and everyone else. I hope this isn't all the Xeno factions can look forward to and I hope Eldar get more love.
Dudeface wrote: Tbh given they gave us artwork of her fighting drazhar, the "omg you'll never guess who we have next!" Is a little deflating. I wish they'd just done both today.
100% I suspect it's tongue in cheek but still - it's becoming boring now.
Elbows wrote: Model looks okay. Doesn't blow me away, and is off the buy list mainly due to flimsy-flailing-fragile pieces syndrome, something I expected. Maybe could be cut/chopped to be on a normal base, and clip the banner tassles, etc.
Her new rule is definitely more useful..maybe? Depends on what you're attacking I suppose. I really hope that's not the only change to her stats/profile, but I suspect it may be. This'll mean, as a Phoenix Lord, she'll still be pretty mediocre/useless in most games.
PS: Note she has way more hair than even the older model...so it's just been growing out for the past 25 years.
The bright side it's after all an improvement on stability remember the Old model joint point was just the tip of her right shoe in a kind of ballerina position (albeit metal)
Dudeface wrote: Tbh given they gave us artwork of her fighting drazhar, the "omg you'll never guess who we have next!" Is a little deflating. I wish they'd just done both today.
To be honest, if you weren't someone who found the artwork via a forum like this where we had an image literally labeled with Drazhar's name via Warhammer Art's website?
You wouldn't know.
They pulled the image off Warhammer Art's website now and the only place it's posted is the Community "Artwork Sighted" bit, where it's not labeled with Drazhar.
Apart from the fact that they've so far gone Banshee, Incubi, Jain Zar, ???. It seems pretty clear what's next and the art is a load of Banshees and Incubi.
Yeah, but again...the Community page isn't meant to just mock the potato camera.
Personally, I would have revealed the characters today and then discussed the purported boxed set next Monday. But they clearly had plans to reveal the 'mystery'(but not really if you visit anywhere that rumors get discussed) character next Monday.
Awesome model and will be picking her up, the video gives us a better glimpse of how dynamic the model is, her back is arched in a way that looks to me that she is finishing her glaive sweep and winding up to launch her triskele.
Hopefully if the sales for her and the Banshees are good they'll move onto the other Aspect Warriors.
Still crossing my fingers for a Greater Daemon sized Plastic Avatar.
Dudeface wrote: Tbh given they gave us artwork of her fighting drazhar, the "omg you'll never guess who we have next!" Is a little deflating. I wish they'd just done both today.
To be honest, if you weren't someone who found the artwork via a forum like this where we had an image literally labeled with Drazhar's name via Warhammer Art's website?
You wouldn't know.
They pulled the image off Warhammer Art's website now and the only place it's posted is the Community "Artwork Sighted" bit, where it's not labeled with Drazhar.
Artwork shows banshees and jain zar fighting incubi, who are lead by......
Dudeface wrote: Tbh given they gave us artwork of her fighting drazhar, the "omg you'll never guess who we have next!" Is a little deflating. I wish they'd just done both today.
To be honest, if you weren't someone who found the artwork via a forum like this where we had an image literally labeled with Drazhar's name via Warhammer Art's website?
You wouldn't know.
They pulled the image off Warhammer Art's website now and the only place it's posted is the Community "Artwork Sighted" bit, where it's not labeled with Drazhar.
Artwork shows banshees and jain zar fighting incubi, who are lead by......
Dudeface wrote: Tbh given they gave us artwork of her fighting drazhar, the "omg you'll never guess who we have next!" Is a little deflating. I wish they'd just done both today.
To be honest, if you weren't someone who found the artwork via a forum like this where we had an image literally labeled with Drazhar's name via Warhammer Art's website?
You wouldn't know.
They pulled the image off Warhammer Art's website now and the only place it's posted is the Community "Artwork Sighted" bit, where it's not labeled with Drazhar.
Artwork shows banshees and jain zar fighting incubi, who are lead by......
but, eh. A footslogging named character melee model with no useful aura is a casual piece only in 8th anyway, so I guess it's fine that she has a sort of noobstomper ability.
Well they didn't provide the entire rule set in the preview. Maybe she will have an aura ability.
Elbows wrote: Model looks okay. Doesn't blow me away, and is off the buy list mainly due to flimsy-flailing-fragile pieces syndrome, something I expected. Maybe could be cut/chopped to be on a normal base, and clip the banner tassles, etc.
Her new rule is definitely more useful..maybe? Depends on what you're attacking I suppose. I really hope that's not the only change to her stats/profile, but I suspect it may be. This'll mean, as a Phoenix Lord, she'll still be pretty mediocre/useless in most games.
PS: Note she has way more hair than even the older model...so it's just been growing out for the past 25 years.
The bright side it's after all an improvement on stability remember the Old model joint point was just the tip of her right shoe in a kind of ballerina position (albeit metal)
True, I actually used the slotta-tab and her shoe point to make a "bit", and drilled a hole in my base so it stabbed into it, and served as an anchor
Dudeface wrote: Tbh given they gave us artwork of her fighting drazhar, the "omg you'll never guess who we have next!" Is a little deflating. I wish they'd just done both today.
To be honest, if you weren't someone who found the artwork via a forum like this where we had an image literally labeled with Drazhar's name via Warhammer Art's website?
You wouldn't know.
They pulled the image off Warhammer Art's website now and the only place it's posted is the Community "Artwork Sighted" bit, where it's not labeled with Drazhar.
Artwork shows banshees and jain zar fighting incubi, who are lead by......
A person who could literally be anyone?
Serious statement here, if you didn't know that it was labeled as "Drazhar" from the Warhammer Art page and reposted here--would you have actually been able to say, definitively, that it's Drazhar?
A reasonable person would outright say "No, I wouldn't be able to say that". You might think it's Drazhar, but since it's not like Jain Zar where it's basically just a touch-up of something we knew--it would have been a slight surprise.
And hell, if it hadn't been for Warhammer Art posting that artwork early? You likely wouldn't have had even the dang picture to go by!
but, eh. A footslogging named character melee model with no useful aura is a casual piece only in 8th anyway, so I guess it's fine that she has a sort of noobstomper ability.
Well they didn't provide the entire rule set in the preview. Maybe she will have an aura ability.
She has one currently. It is "Howling banshee units within 6" cause enemy units within 1" to fight last".
It's pretty useless. I dunno, maybe she'll get a reroll aura or something, but it'll be limited to only Howling Banshees (like all the Pheonix Lords abilities) and since howling banshees are likely still kind of bad, it'd have to be pretty good for it to not just not matter.
drazar's current aura is even more worthless.
It's +1 to hit in melee combat for incubi. Which sounds OK! Until you realize:
1) He is already WS2+. Therefore it doesn't work on him despite him having the INCUBI keyword.
2) Incubi sergeants are already WS2+.
3) All Drukhari become WS2+ after turn 3 lol.
You have an aura that works turn 1-2 on one specific unit and not on the sergeant
Dudeface wrote: Tbh given they gave us artwork of her fighting drazhar, the "omg you'll never guess who we have next!" Is a little deflating. I wish they'd just done both today.
To be honest, if you weren't someone who found the artwork via a forum like this where we had an image literally labeled with Drazhar's name via Warhammer Art's website?
You wouldn't know.
They pulled the image off Warhammer Art's website now and the only place it's posted is the Community "Artwork Sighted" bit, where it's not labeled with Drazhar.
Artwork shows banshees and jain zar fighting incubi, who are lead by......
A person who could literally be anyone?
Serious statement here, if you didn't know that it was labeled as "Drazhar" from the Warhammer Art page and reposted here--would you have actually been able to say, definitively, that it's Drazhar?
A reasonable person would outright say "No, I wouldn't be able to say that". You might think it's Drazhar, but since it's not like Jain Zar where it's basically just a touch-up of something we knew--it would have been a slight surprise.
And hell, if it hadn't been for Warhammer Art posting that artwork early? You likely wouldn't have had even the dang picture to go by!
Come on, she's depicted in a fight with incubi in the artwork, her nemesis isn't going to be pit cleaner dave the part time klaivex is it?
If they hadn't put the artwork up, I'd have made the educated guess that they previewed banshees > Phoenix lord, they previewed incubi so logically > Phoenix lord.
So, Jain Zar basically has to continuously run everywhere, or failing that, is forced to just drag that hair across the ground wherever she goes?
That much hair must rack up quite a shampoo bill anyway, last thing you want is to drag it through the dirt all the time.
Coenus Scaldingus wrote: So, Jain Zar basically has to continuously run everywhere, or failing that, is forced to just drag that hair across the ground wherever she goes?
That much hair must rack up quite a shampoo bill anyway, last thing you want is to drag it through the dirt all the time.
Don't be silly, she obviously runs on the hair. Her shoes are equipped with scrubbing bubble soles.
Not entirely shocked that 'suspended in air, precariously balanced on hair precariously balanced on ruins' is the look they decided to go for... but I do so miss game-practical and transport-practical models. The Beastgrave elf-things still make me cringe every time (though it doesn't help that those are also ugly).
Rules-wise, not sure 'slaughterer of cheap infantry' is something eldar are really in dire need of, but at least there are some rules updates attached to this.
Tiberius501 wrote: Maybe I have no taste, but I really like her insane amount of hair.
it's not bad (granted i am no knive ear player so anyways not a target) but this looks just as fine imo and has a lower risk of suprise garbage hairjob at the coiffeur via transport box.
Love Jain Zar. Even love the silly hair. Retains the punky 90s Jes Goodwin vibe and pairs it with modern proportions and a dynamic but not overdone pose. Only thing I'm not so sure of are the super long ribbons, as I feel they're really dominating the model, but they can be easily removed.
jeff white wrote: How many attacks is this special rule, now? All models within 2inches after pile in...
How many guardsmen is this, conceivably?
Well got 7 25mm base around 1, 11 more for 2nd row and 3rd row would be there so if opponent is suicidical enough to cram as much stuff around it either he's pretty darn sure he can kill her before he strikes or he faces 30+ attacks easily
The bright side it's after all an improvement on stability remember the Old model joint point was just the tip of her right shoe in a kind of ballerina position (albeit metal)
To help stabilize the old Jain Zar in metal after I clipped it off of the slot that it came on
I glued a half oil barrel to the base.
The model's extended foot could be bent over the barrel -
large curved contact point.
Scored and glued the F outta that.
The ankle is weak though - if I recall, it is in a box... long time.
Still breakable.
I like the old metal model - the heft of it feels like a queen, a major piece when it is moved.
Then new one is even spikier.
Not so easy to travel.
The old metal one is big enough on a 6x4 table imho.
.Guess characters get bigger as the prices grow relative production costs per unit.
Well got 7 25mm base around 1, 11 more for 2nd row and 3rd row would be there so if opponent is suicidical enough to cram as much stuff around it either he's pretty darn sure he can kill her before he strikes or he faces 30+ attacks easily
Holy Terra,
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Coenus Scaldingus wrote: Quick mock-up of what she might be like after a visit to the hairdresser.
Spoiler:
I guess I am nostalgic, or just not into the gimicky hairvaulting pose,
but I like this one better too.
Yeah, new Jain's rule is basically identical to the mythical solitaire that kills 30 orks with the cloak of blades relic.
You just need to be playing against an opponent dumb enough to say "Huuuurrrrrrr guess I'll pile in mah orks and fight with all of them den! Get 'em lads!"
You just have to play the one mythical opponent who does not have just a 30-man guard screen spread out in front of his leafblower list that tables a normal 40k list in 2 turns so you only need to prevent melee for 1.
Its a cute thing to say she can do, but the number of times you'll get more than 1 or 2 extra attacks out of it (assuming her base attacks stay at 4) will be slim.
Kind of like how Harlequins Kisses used to penetrate tanks. They had a base strength of 4, rolled a D6 to pen. If you rolled a 6, you got to roll another D6, and if that D6 was a six...you get the idea. Most vehicles had about 20 armor, so on average you needed to roll 3 6s in a row to get through, at which point you automatically killed one random crewman with the Kiss.
tneva82 wrote: Well got 7 25mm base around 1, 11 more for 2nd row and 3rd row would be there so if opponent is suicidical enough to cram as much stuff around it either he's pretty darn sure he can kill her before he strikes or he faces 30+ attacks easily
More like 10, and if opponent wants, will probably be about 5, and that's with small bases - orks have 32 mm bases.
The rule should be like 3" instead of 2".
Elbows wrote: Who said anything about overquoting? You're running your mouth about things you believe I said...so, prove it. Quit dodging.
Very well - you expected it, and decided not to buy it even before it was released. Quite tactically apt.
tneva82 wrote: Well got 7 25mm base around 1, 11 more for 2nd row and 3rd row would be there so if opponent is suicidical enough to cram as much stuff around it either he's pretty darn sure he can kill her before he strikes or he faces 30+ attacks easily
More like 10, and if opponent wants, will probably be about 5, and that's with small bases - orks have 32 mm bases.
The rule should be like 3" instead of 2".
This is a big difference.
Would still buy a night lords bundle with banshees.
tneva82 wrote: Well got 7 25mm base around 1, 11 more for 2nd row and 3rd row would be there so if opponent is suicidical enough to cram as much stuff around it either he's pretty darn sure he can kill her before he strikes or he faces 30+ attacks easily
More like 10, and if opponent wants, will probably be about 5, and that's with small bases - orks have 32 mm bases.
The rule should be like 3" instead of 2".
This is a big difference.
Would still buy a night lords bundle with banshees.
In the late 41st Millennium, Jain Zar hunted the Chaos Space Marine Talos Valcoran, the commander of the 1st Claw of the 10th Company of the Night Lords Traitor Legion, due to a vision by Eldar Seers who foresaw that a prophet of the VIII Legion would unify the Night Lords and lead them against the Ulthwé Eldar in the future, and in so doing kill enough of the Craftworld's population to push it beyond its ability to recover its losses. When Talos' warband of Night Lords laid waste to the Imperial colonists of the world of Tsagualsa in the Eastern Fringe, they were ambushed by Eldar of the Ulthwé Craftworld looking to again kill the Soul Hunter before he could become a threat to their race. In the ensuing battle, nearly every member of Talos' warband was slain and he himself became embroiled in a desperate single combat against the deadly Phoenix Lord who had led the Ulthwé Aspect Warriors. In the ensuing battle, Jain Zar took grievous injuries and Talos sacrificed himself by detonating a grenade, killing the Eldar Exarch and ending her hunt. However, given that Exarchs can be reborn in new bodies[6a] she is unlikely truly dead.
Plus I always wanted an excuse to collect night lords and chaos marine generally.
I did snag some old metal termies in mint shape a while back,
and got some plastic weapons arm options for them...
I think one thing that will help people determine what's happening with psychic awakening is *how long* each campaign will last?
Are they going to rapid-fire these out every month after they get started, or is there going to be like 4-6 months between books?
I'm predicting the latter, and I hope that that means there's more to come than howling banshees and incubi (and their leaders). Both Drukhari and Aeldari have a LOT of models that need to be updated, either from age or from resin.
Now, one thing I'm predicting is that Harlequins will get a little attention, maybe in the form of a new unit. They could use some troop variety (which I'd love, since it'd help them have variety in Kill Team too). But, we'll see. If all we get are the 4 kits, I'll be just a little disappointed.
Ah yeah, and the Night Lords keeping Ulthwe at bay as Chaos broke free of the Eye of Terror and started all this shenanigans is a pretty important lore point.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, new Jain's rule is basically identical to the mythical solitaire that kills 30 orks with the cloak of blades relic.
You just need to be playing against an opponent dumb enough to say "Huuuurrrrrrr guess I'll pile in mah orks and fight with all of them den! Get 'em lads!"
You just have to play the one mythical opponent who does not have just a 30-man guard screen spread out in front of his leafblower list that tables a normal 40k list in 2 turns so you only need to prevent melee for 1.
Its a cute thing to say she can do, but the number of times you'll get more than 1 or 2 extra attacks out of it (assuming her base attacks stay at 4) will be slim..
Or you could play against me I'm notorious for not bothering to ask rules in advance so I have been hit by:
a) some grey knight character. Alone. I figure "okay that can't be too bad" and charge mob of boyz into it. In the end <10 boyz was left as sole survivors of that fight. "He can do WHAT?!?! (okay so the GK character had to die to do that but point wise it was good tradeoff as he got against pretty much ideal target for his abilities)
b) face salamanders. They have some weirdo dreadnought from FW. I figure "okay it's maybe 2+/5++ character with some flamers" so didn't pay too much attention until it was in middle of my army. "Wait what do you mean he's T9, 2+/5++/4+++? With nasty flamers that can shoot out of combat?"
One day I should bother to ask stats of new units I face first time. I read enough from net it's not like there's that much total surprises for me yet I still never seem to learn...
In the late 41st Millennium, Jain Zar hunted the Chaos Space Marine Talos Valcoran, the commander of the 1st Claw of the 10th Company of the Night Lords Traitor Legion, due to a vision by Eldar Seers who foresaw that a prophet of the VIII Legion would unify the Night Lords and lead them against the Ulthwé Eldar in the future, and in so doing kill enough of the Craftworld's population to push it beyond its ability to recover its losses. When Talos' warband of Night Lords laid waste to the Imperial colonists of the world of Tsagualsa in the Eastern Fringe, they were ambushed by Eldar of the Ulthwé Craftworld looking to again kill the Soul Hunter before he could become a threat to their race. In the ensuing battle, nearly every member of Talos' warband was slain and he himself became embroiled in a desperate single combat against the deadly Phoenix Lord who had led the Ulthwé Aspect Warriors. In the ensuing battle, Jain Zar took grievous injuries and Talos sacrificed himself by detonating a grenade, killing the Eldar Exarch and ending her hunt. However, given that Exarchs can be reborn in new bodies[6a] she is unlikely truly dead.
tneva82 wrote: Well got 7 25mm base around 1, 11 more for 2nd row and 3rd row would be there so if opponent is suicidical enough to cram as much stuff around it either he's pretty darn sure he can kill her before he strikes or he faces 30+ attacks easily
More like 10, and if opponent wants, will probably be about 5, and that's with small bases - orks have 32 mm bases.
The rule should be like 3" instead of 2".
Elbows wrote: Who said anything about overquoting? You're running your mouth about things you believe I said...so, prove it. Quit dodging.
Very well - you expected it, and decided not to buy it even before it was released. Quite tactically apt.
He specified guardsmen so I went for 25mm. And I literally put models on my table. Albeit didn't go for 3rd circle because I ran out of models and space but 18 models in 2 rows(that's btw not even maximum 32mm bases can fit here...).
So if opponent crams in suicidically like that it's 30+ attacks for 25mm base. 32mm not sure but more than 2 circles is maximum so should be pretty darn big anyway(the difference between 25mm and 32mm base in close combat isn't full rank. More like half a rank)
Yes most opponents don't do it like but he asked for maximum. I answer questions as asked.
drbored wrote: I think one thing that will help people determine what's happening with psychic awakening is *how long* each campaign will last?
Are they going to rapid-fire these out every month after they get started, or is there going to be like 4-6 months between books?
I'm predicting the latter, and I hope that that means there's more to come than howling banshees and incubi (and their leaders). Both Drukhari and Aeldari have a LOT of models that need to be updated, either from age or from resin.
Now, one thing I'm predicting is that Harlequins will get a little attention, maybe in the form of a new unit. They could use some troop variety (which I'd love, since it'd help them have variety in Kill Team too). But, we'll see. If all we get are the 4 kits, I'll be just a little disappointed.
Ah yeah, and the Night Lords keeping Ulthwe at bay as Chaos broke free of the Eye of Terror and started all this shenanigans is a pretty important lore point.
Expect to be kind of similar to The Gathering Storm books.
You'll get some new models witch each part, updated ongoing lore and several fluffy missions to play the battles of the lore. And if we are really lucky maybe some rules updates to some units beyond the few ones showcased.
He specified guardsmen so I went for 25mm. And I literally put models on my table. Albeit didn't go for 3rd circle because I ran out of models and space but 18 models in 2 rows(that's btw not even maximum 32mm bases can fit here...).
So if opponent crams in suicidically like that it's 30+ attacks for 25mm base. 32mm not sure but more than 2 circles is maximum so should be pretty darn big anyway(the difference between 25mm and 32mm base in close combat isn't full rank. More like half a rank)
Yes most opponents don't do it like but he asked for maximum. I answer questions as asked.
And I appreciate that answer.
Thank you - exalted!
Now, one thing I'm predicting is that Harlequins will get a little attention, maybe in the form of a new unit. They could use some troop variety (which I'd love, since it'd help them have variety in Kill Team too). But, we'll see. If all we get are the 4 kits, I'll be just a little disappointed.
I find the Banshees kinda... plain. I dunno I had to look at the old ones to really make a judgement but these are all exactly as you would expect, nothing beyond that.
Kinda like releasing a new model of car after 5 years and having it be just an iteration with largely non-impactful bells and whistles from modern tech, bare minimum improvement.
I dunno am I being too harsh? I kinda wish they gave them a more substantial redesign in some way. Not a page-1 rewrite, but some kind of shake-up. They are pretty good overall but I'm not excited, it didn't trigger my 'want to paint' reflex.
MajorTom11 wrote: I find the Banshees kinda... plain. I dunno I had to look at the old ones to really make a judgement but these are all exactly as you would expect, nothing beyond that.
Kinda like releasing a new model of car after 5 years and having it be just an iteration with largely non-impactful bells and whistles from modern tech, bare minimum improvement.
I dunno am I being too harsh? I kinda wish they gave them a more substantial redesign in some way. Not a page-1 rewrite, but some kind of shake-up.
I like the idea of a plastic update.
Why so completely remake what were some of the coolest old models they made?
If they changed too much then I wouldn't be interested, at all.
Some people had such a feeling about some of the new sisters models, a bit -
the aesthetic seemed to change, with plugs for power armor in the skin and so on, and some didn't like the idea...
Though those models were fine, and the old ones that they replaced were never my favorite (I don't own any),
the point here is, if these Banshees as a power armor port equivalent, I wouldn't like it either...
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Alpharius wrote: I like the new JZ but really hoped this means all the Phoenix Lords are getting a plastic re-do.
Because Karandras!
No doubt, talk about whippy spiky flowy hair attachments!
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, new Jain's rule is basically identical to the mythical solitaire that kills 30 orks with the cloak of blades relic.
You just need to be playing against an opponent dumb enough to say "Huuuurrrrrrr guess I'll pile in mah orks and fight with all of them den! Get 'em lads!"
You just have to play the one mythical opponent who does not have just a 30-man guard screen spread out in front of his leafblower list that tables a normal 40k list in 2 turns so you only need to prevent melee for 1.
Its a cute thing to say she can do, but the number of times you'll get more than 1 or 2 extra attacks out of it (assuming her base attacks stay at 4) will be slim.
Kind of like how Harlequins Kisses used to penetrate tanks. They had a base strength of 4, rolled a D6 to pen. If you rolled a 6, you got to roll another D6, and if that D6 was a six...you get the idea. Most vehicles had about 20 armor, so on average you needed to roll 3 6s in a row to get through, at which point you automatically killed one random crewman with the Kiss.
Doesn't help when the banshee mask means she would attack prior to enemy pile ins anyway
I think that alternate attack is something that will be useful over all however. If she murders one thing then piles in to grab a new unit they will be much less inclined to pile in an swing no her since you could pop a fight again strat at the end of the phase and whirlwind them all to death haha.
In the late 41st Millennium, Jain Zar hunted the Chaos Space Marine Talos Valcoran, the commander of the 1st Claw of the 10th Company of the Night Lords Traitor Legion, due to a vision by Eldar Seers who foresaw that a prophet of the VIII Legion would unify the Night Lords and lead them against the Ulthwé Eldar in the future, and in so doing kill enough of the Craftworld's population to push it beyond its ability to recover its losses. When Talos' warband of Night Lords laid waste to the Imperial colonists of the world of Tsagualsa in the Eastern Fringe, they were ambushed by Eldar of the Ulthwé Craftworld looking to again kill the Soul Hunter before he could become a threat to their race. In the ensuing battle, nearly every member of Talos' warband was slain and he himself became embroiled in a desperate single combat against the deadly Phoenix Lord who had led the Ulthwé Aspect Warriors. In the ensuing battle, Jain Zar took grievous injuries and Talos sacrificed himself by detonating a grenade, killing the Eldar Exarch and ending her hunt. However, given that Exarchs can be reborn in new bodies[6a] she is unlikely truly dead.
Plus I always wanted an excuse to collect night lords and chaos marine generally.
I did snag some old metal termies in mint shape a while back,
and got some plastic weapons arm options for them...
I always thought the most amusing part of that whole thing is that they misidentified the guy. The dude they actually needed to kill was Talos' successor who not coincidentally goes around dressed like Talos so that anyone from the past looking into the future that wants to kill him would go kill Talos instead. Which they did. Night Lords are such dicks.
Jain Zar is brilliant! As expected, a dynamic pose with a tremendous sense of movement, which the ribbons help accentuate. Can’t see how Eldar collectors would be disappointed.
Sadly I have to agree with some earlier posters about what the slow trickle of releases means for the Eldar. Banshees, Incubi, and the characters is probably going to be it.
tneva82 wrote: Yes most opponents don't do it like but he asked for maximum.
But that's a circle. When Jain charges, models won't be surrounding her. And people don't usually have units standing in moon-shaped formations.
So unless she has something similar to Flip-Belt to help, I am not sure about this rule. I guess I'd have to see how it plays on the table.
Maybe you missed it but the rule is not when Jain Zar charges only. It's when he's picked to fight. And last time I checked Jain Zar doesn't have rule enemy cannot charge her.
Indeed that's where that silly amount MIGHT actually happen. Opponent needs to get that model killed and tries to charge and kill her before she strikes but fails. In that case you are probably better off cramming maximum number of guys into the range to give best shot for killing her first.
Indeed that's where that silly amount MIGHT actually happen. Opponent needs to get that model killed and tries to charge and kill her before she strikes but fails. In that case you are probably better off cramming maximum number of guys into the range to give best shot for killing her first.
this is where autocannons might be preferable.
but when no other choice, 30 guardsmen.
MajorTom11 wrote: I find the Banshees kinda... plain. I dunno I had to look at the old ones to really make a judgement but these are all exactly as you would expect, nothing beyond that.
Kinda like releasing a new model of car after 5 years and having it be just an iteration with largely non-impactful bells and whistles from modern tech, bare minimum improvement.
I dunno am I being too harsh? I kinda wish they gave them a more substantial redesign in some way. Not a page-1 rewrite, but some kind of shake-up. They are pretty good overall but I'm not excited, it didn't trigger my 'want to paint' reflex.
I'm actually really glad that they didn't redesign them. These are Banshees, in plastic. So better material, but still close enough to the previous versions for the models to fit in together on the table.
Jain Zar is glorious. Yes, the hair is a little over-the-top, but it's a nice update that stays true to the original, which was a lovely model that was sadly limited by the 2D posing requirements of solid pewter.
jeff white wrote: this is where autocannons might be preferable.
but when no other choice, 30 guardsmen.
Yeah, I mean, just Fall Back. Unless Eldar player also somehow takes a hostage and then moves Jain around to proc more attacks... it all looks fairly complicated.
Dread Master wrote: Jain Zar is brilliant! As expected, a dynamic pose with a tremendous sense of movement, which the ribbons help accentuate..
Question then, as I generally have trouble with 'dynamic' models (I'm not a visual person). What direction is she moving?
I honestly can't tell if she's jumping away and slashing with the glaive in order to play 'keep away' with people trying to grab her boomerang*, or falling at them (in which case the ribbons and hair seem to be in the wrong place, and moving in the wrong direction).
Her loincloth suggests that she's moving in the direction of her belly, of it would be pressed against one leg or the other, not sliding back between both.
So, to me it looks like there are at least three or four directions of movement, where she's falling, moving laterally in the direction her belly button is pointed (why does her armor have a belly button?), slashing really hard to get the ribbons going in the opposite direction of her travel and her hair is... just doing its own thing, independent of her.
It isn't a terrible model (parts are very nice, belly button aside), but its got one of the typical 'GW Dynamic Poses!' that is amazingly vague and meaningless. You can see where the art director drew lines for the sculptor saying 'and these things should go this way and those things should point that way, but the end result is an odd anti-gravity moment of 'artfully' pointless dynamism.
*speaking of said boomrang, her grip looks like when she throws it, she throws it corner first, rather than blade first, which is...odd.
I'll confess that I can't prove exactly how a Triskele is used/thrown (since they don't actually exist), but however it's meant to be used, I'm pretty sure it bears no resemblance to the manner in which the model is currently holding it.
Seems I’m in a minority who missed the memo that GW models are supposed to accurate scientific models and not bonkers pulp SF art made into sculptures, mind... ;-)
Seems I’m in a minority who missed the memo that GW models are supposed to accurate scientific models and not bonkers pulp SF art made into sculptures, mind... ;-)
Nothing wrong, but the hair stand is going to be an issue.
TheFleshIsWeak wrote: I'll confess that I can't prove exactly how a Triskele is used/thrown (since they don't actually exist), but however it's meant to be used, I'm pretty sure it bears no resemblance to the manner in which the model is currently holding it.
I imagine it to be used similarly to a chakram (which do exist), though the grip of the model does not seem to be right for using it. That could be because the model’s pose seems to show it swiping the Blade of Destruction sideways.
I interpreted the pose to be Jain Zar leaping up, not falling down, due to the way the hair coils and the toe first position of the feet.
Uh, how about all of the space marines, which is almost half the armies in existence?
I don't consider space marines exclusivly a shooting army, they've always been intended to be capable in CQC
that is why two of the three doctrines apply to just dakka?
Most strength comes from these two due to beeing easily achievable states?
i mean we can all agree what marines should be, generalists, what marines are atm is however something completely diffrent.
Not only that, but you can't start in the Assault Doctrine either.
keep in mind I'm not saying Marines are intended as a melee army, but rather they're intended as a combined arms army that handles all elements therein.
BrianDavion wrote: Uh, how about all of the space marines, which is almost half the armies in existence?
I don't consider space marines exclusivly a shooting army, they've always been intended to be capable in CQC
that is why two of the three doctrines apply to just dakka?
Most strength comes from these two due to beeing easily achievable states?
i mean we can all agree what marines should be, generalists, what marines are atm is however something completely diffrent.
Not only that, but you can't start in the Assault Doctrine either.
keep in mind I'm not saying Marines are intended as a melee army, but rather they're intended as a combined arms army that handles all elements therein.
Can you please stop necroing inane marine chat while people are in the middle of talking about actual releases and news for PA?
It’s OK to talk about things other than Marines you know. The emperor does not exist and I promise he will not smite you.
TheFleshIsWeak wrote: I'll confess that I can't prove exactly how a Triskele is used/thrown (since they don't actually exist), but however it's meant to be used, I'm pretty sure it bears no resemblance to the manner in which the model is currently holding it.
I imagine it to be used similarly to a chakram (which do exist), though the grip of the model does not seem to be right for using it. That could be because the model’s pose seems to show it swiping the Blade of Destruction sideways.
I interpreted the pose to be Jain Zar leaping up, not falling down, due to the way the hair coils and the toe first position of the feet.
From what I've raid Chakram were thrown horizontally in single combat and vertically in battle to avoid hitting your mate next to you. There's also the Javanese version which is a cross with shaped blades in the ends, which would be visually even closer to the Triskele.
TheFleshIsWeak wrote: I'll confess that I can't prove exactly how a Triskele is used/thrown (since they don't actually exist), but however it's meant to be used, I'm pretty sure it bears no resemblance to the manner in which the model is currently holding it.
I imagine it to be used similarly to a chakram (which do exist), though the grip of the model does not seem to be right for using it. That could be because the model’s pose seems to show it swiping the Blade of Destruction sideways.
I interpreted the pose to be Jain Zar leaping up, not falling down, due to the way the hair coils and the toe first position of the feet.
From what I've raid Chakram were thrown horizontally in single combat and vertically in battle to avoid hitting your mate next to you. There's also the Javanese version which is a cross with shaped blades in the ends, which would be visually even closer to the Triskele.
It's also fairly similar to a traditional tribal African weapon they had contestants make on Forged in Fire that had three different types of weapon edges(axe style blade, spear style, and a punch dagger) and was designed to be thrown. Can't remember the name, though.
MajorTom11 wrote: Kinda like releasing a new model of car after 5 years and having it be just an iteration with largely non-impactful bells and whistles from modern tech, bare minimum improvement.
Well, GW are the Porsche of miniature design.
Kanluwen wrote: To be honest, if you weren't someone who found the artwork via a forum like this where we had an image literally labeled with Drazhar's name via Warhammer Art's website? You wouldn't know.
So if you weren't someone involved in a massive interconnected gaming space where millions of people discuss it world-wide, you wouldn't know.
That's some commentary there Kan.
Kanluwen wrote: They pulled the image off Warhammer Art's website now and the only place it's posted is the Community "Artwork Sighted" bit, where it's not labeled with Drazhar.
Because GW thinks you can take things off the Internet once they're out there.
I really dislike how they are dragging this out. She could have been previewed with the banshees or her and the next guy could have been done together. Worries me about how substantive PA will be
So i really like Jain Zar, model looks good. Even like the hair.
But who is posing these, its just a really meh pose D:
I am happy to see her get a new model, and even one i like.
But its still a disappointment due to just a really bad pose :(
Apple fox wrote: So i really like Jain Zar, model looks good. Even like the hair.
But who is posing these, its just a really meh pose D:
I am happy to see her get a new model, and even one i like.
But its still a disappointment due to just a really bad pose :(
Someone at GW really likes 'acrobatic' poses for elves/eldar.
It kicked off with the last metal wardancers (several of models are doing flips), went to weird places with the spellsingers are just sort of jumped around for Harlequins, Witch elves, and assorted related things. Even the latest Legolas.
Particularly if they've got a single foot stuck to a piece of ruined wall, and the mini is woefully unbalanced and tends to fall over.
It isn't quite as bad as what they've been doing with spirits since the Nagash resculpt, but its still hellishly impractical for non-display pieces (which by default all of them are)
xeen wrote: I really dislike how they are dragging this out. She could have been previewed with the banshees or her and the next guy could have been done together. Worries me about how substantive PA will be
well here's the way I see it, they're previewing one new thing a week. we know PA:1 proably isn't going to be on pre-order next week. as most likely they'll wanna finish off marines first. assuming a new preview every monday until release. that gives at least 2 more previews. I'm going to guess we'll eaither get another aspect warrior kit and another DE unit type kit, or harliquins will get a new kit and character. and that'll be it.
jeff white wrote: this is where autocannons might be preferable.
but when no other choice, 30 guardsmen.
Yeah, I mean, just Fall Back. Unless Eldar player also somehow takes a hostage and then moves Jain around to proc more attacks... it all looks fairly complicated.
Sometimes you just have to kill somebody. I have ended up in situation where I just have to charge and kill somebody I would normally never charge because literally I have no chance of winning the game if I don't kill him and everything else I had in my disposal failed at the task.
Albeit rare but technically possible and when it was asked what's the most you might see...well that's the most. Not the usual.
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xeen wrote: I really dislike how they are dragging this out. She could have been previewed with the banshees or her and the next guy could have been done together. Worries me about how substantive PA will be
Apple fox wrote: So i really like Jain Zar, model looks good. Even like the hair.
But who is posing these, its just a really meh pose D:
I am happy to see her get a new model, and even one i like.
But its still a disappointment due to just a really bad pose :(
Someone at GW really likes 'acrobatic' poses for elves/eldar.
It kicked off with the last metal wardancers (several of models are doing flips), went to weird places with the spellsingers are just sort of jumped around for Harlequins, Witch elves, and assorted related things. Even the latest Legolas.
Particularly if they've got a single foot stuck to a piece of ruined wall, and the mini is woefully unbalanced and tends to fall over.
It isn't quite as bad as what they've been doing with spirits since the Nagash resculpt, but its still hellishly impractical for non-display pieces (which by default all of them are)
They've gotten much better at making it look, if not natural, then at least not too un-natural... the first lot of Harlequins they tried it on just wound up looking like they were bouncing around the battlefield on over-starched loincloths.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Yea if anyone is expecting Night Lords in this release I'd prepare to be disappointed...
Can we spoilerify some of the 'Jain Zar has gone to the barber' pictures please?
I don't think there'll be anything in terms of new models for Harlies. Not this release anyways.
If anyone is expecting Night Lords in an Eldar-heavy release and storyline then they're barking mad. Emperor's Children would be the Legion you'd expect to get anything...simply because of the whole Slaanesh connection.
One thing that I've noticed a lot in different groups and forums...what's up with all the Dark Eldar players thinking Jain Zar's opponent is going to be Vect?
We've seen the artwork. We've seen the fact that the 'counterpart' unit being released is Incubi. And we know of an existing Incubi special character who not only has a model dating back to 3rd edition but also is a specialist duellist...
I just hope Drazhar doesn't manage to look blandly generic....
I mean it’s fairly obvious at this point the box will be DE vs CWE, so Ynnari players can use the lot. Maybe the new units and some filler old kits like Guardians to bump the price up and make you buy stuff you don’t need. Standard MO.
Kanluwen wrote: They pulled the image off Warhammer Art's website now and the only place it's posted is the Community "Artwork Sighted" bit, where it's not labeled with Drazhar.
Because GW thinks you can take things off the Internet once they're out there.
Or, they are geniuses at the meta-level.
Some discursive PR judo...
Those fans first 'in-the-know' take on 'desire to tell' motivations
for various reasons
and this moves the idea, adds to its intrigue, puts fire into the community.
Contemporary marketing is like a brain infection, giving or receiving.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Yea if anyone is expecting Night Lords in this release I'd prepare to be disappointed...
Can we spoilerify some of the 'Jain Zar has gone to the barber' pictures please?
I don't think there'll be anything in terms of new models for Harlies. Not this release anyways.
If anyone is expecting Night Lords in an Eldar-heavy release and storyline then they're barking mad. Emperor's Children would be the Legion you'd expect to get anything...simply because of the whole Slaanesh connection.
One thing that I've noticed a lot in different groups and forums...what's up with all the Dark Eldar players thinking Jain Zar's opponent is going to be Vect?
We've seen the artwork. We've seen the fact that the 'counterpart' unit being released is Incubi. And we know of an existing Incubi special character who not only has a model dating back to 3rd edition but also is a specialist duellist...
I just hope Drazhar doesn't manage to look blandly generic....
The Vect theory may come from the Artwork, despite being labeled Jain Zar vs Drazhar, the new *Drazhar* looks just like a normal klaivex wich is odd and there is a rare looking ravager/raider in the middle everyone is guessing if it's a new model or artistic license.
Considering Vect in the past came in the Dais of destruction (his personal raider) DE are just wishful thinking for his return with rules to the game (like they did with Gotrek in AoS) IMHO.
It was clearly a mistake that the art was released and they have scrambled to try and rectify the mistake.
The next unit to be previewed will obviously be Drahzar too. Anyone with even a vague interest in releases and rumours will be aware too - I'm sure every 40k 'news' site has kept the artwork and reported the original name. Not to mention it's incredibly obvious from the picture itself.
As to the release of news on PA - I think people are sick and/or bored of the Marine releases now and I don't believe that providing information on both models this week would mean they have nothing to report next week. They could simply move the news quicker.
The frustration is that 2 things are becoming evident - first the 4 units are likely all that Aeldari players can expect and second that GW aren't looking to release this first PA book as quickly as some of us would hope.
Jain Zar looks nice overall, but is there a reason she couldn't just have her feet on the ground? Too many models are awkwardly suspended in mid-air these days.
I love how basically every character model they released in the last months splits the community in half, with one half loving it and one half hating it
I didn't like the original, which was easily my least favorite of the already goofy-looking Phoenix Lords. This does nothing to change it, they just doubled down on the goof factor. I like the basic banshees and exarch but I hoped they'd reinvent Jain to be a bit more modern in style.
An Actual Englishman wrote: It was clearly a mistake that the art was released and they have scrambled to try and rectify the mistake.
The next unit to be previewed will obviously be Drahzar too. Anyone with even a vague interest in releases and rumours will be aware too - I'm sure every 40k 'news' site has kept the artwork and reported the original name. Not to mention it's incredibly obvious from the picture itself.
As to the release of news on PA - I think people are sick and/or bored of the Marine releases now and I don't believe that providing information on both models this week would mean they have nothing to report next week. They could simply move the news quicker.
The frustration is that 2 things are becoming evident - first the 4 units are likely all that Aeldari players can expect and second that GW aren't looking to release this first PA book as quickly as some of us would hope.
Only these models would be ok.
I am afraid that, given the artwork, it'll be an overpriced big box with the two characters, a 5-squad of the new units and a pile of ancient Guardians / Kabalite sprues every Eldar player already owns in abundance bundled in.
I am hoping this psychic awaking takes a terrible twist for the Ynnari and they aren't the saviours of the Eldar race, but the destruction. I guess I'm wish listing a little bit but it'd be a cool twist.
Not entirely shocked that 'suspended in air, precariously balanced on hair precariously balanced on ruins' is the look they decided to go for... but I do so miss game-practical and transport-practical models. The Beastgrave elf-things still make me cringe every time (though it doesn't help that those are also ugly).
I'm always wondering how people transport their models for them to have this issue. Either foam frames or magnetized bases (even both combined in a solid metal box) will leave the model entirely undisturbed.
Not entirely shocked that 'suspended in air, precariously balanced on hair precariously balanced on ruins' is the look they decided to go for... but I do so miss game-practical and transport-practical models. The Beastgrave elf-things still make me cringe every time (though it doesn't help that those are also ugly).
I'm always wondering how people transport their models for them to have this issue. Either foam frames or magnetized bases (even both combined in a solid metal box) will leave the model entirely undisturbed.
Yeah. Transport tends to be less the issue IMO. It's more when 20 Genestealers on small bases and some Venomthropes or so piled into 2-3 Lord Discordants or Slaanesh Chariots on the bottom level of a GW ruin and you're trying to remove casualties, when it get's dicey
I do not get all the hate... it is SUCH a good model, the pose is great looks very natural, dynamic eligant and gracefull... a really good sculpt...
Those that say it is disappointing that it it is a bit meh and nothing new... thats a testament to how well the origional pheonix lords were designed... yes, they all (except Maugan Ra) need updating... but not that much, the basic designs are sound and classic... they just need to be updated pose and proportion wise and have some of the details refined...
In the late 41st Millennium, Jain Zar hunted the Chaos Space Marine Talos Valcoran, the commander of the 1st Claw of the 10th Company of the Night Lords Traitor Legion, due to a vision by Eldar Seers who foresaw that a prophet of the VIII Legion would unify the Night Lords and lead them against the Ulthwé Eldar in the future, and in so doing kill enough of the Craftworld's population to push it beyond its ability to recover its losses. When Talos' warband of Night Lords laid waste to the Imperial colonists of the world of Tsagualsa in the Eastern Fringe, they were ambushed by Eldar of the Ulthwé Craftworld looking to again kill the Soul Hunter before he could become a threat to their race. In the ensuing battle, nearly every member of Talos' warband was slain and he himself became embroiled in a desperate single combat against the deadly Phoenix Lord who had led the Ulthwé Aspect Warriors. In the ensuing battle, Jain Zar took grievous injuries and Talos sacrificed himself by detonating a grenade, killing the Eldar Exarch and ending her hunt. However, given that Exarchs can be reborn in new bodies[6a] she is unlikely truly dead.
An Actual Englishman wrote: It was clearly a mistake that the art was released and they have scrambled to try and rectify the mistake.
The next unit to be previewed will obviously be Drahzar too. Anyone with even a vague interest in releases and rumours will be aware too - I'm sure every 40k 'news' site has kept the artwork and reported the original name. Not to mention it's incredibly obvious from the picture itself.
As to the release of news on PA - I think people are sick and/or bored of the Marine releases now and I don't believe that providing information on both models this week would mean they have nothing to report next week. They could simply move the news quicker.
The frustration is that 2 things are becoming evident - first the 4 units are likely all that Aeldari players can expect and second that GW aren't looking to release this first PA book as quickly as some of us would hope.
The Vect theory may come from the Artwork, despite being labeled Jain Zar vs Drazhar, the new *Drazhar* looks just like a normal klaivex wich is odd and there is a rare looking ravager/raider in the middle everyone is guessing if it's a new model or artistic license.
Considering Vect in the past came in the Dais of destruction (his personal raider) DE are just wishful thinking for his return with rules to the game (like they did with Gotrek in AoS) IMHO.
It's still barking mad. All their talk has revolved heavily around the word 'duellists'. They've shown 2 respective units, artwork and now a special character tied to one of those units. Logic is really missing for a lot of these people.
Vect would never had made sense - the character isn't a duellist. He's certainly not a single character release either. Backgroundwise Vect doesn't even work - you think he's going to get off his Dais for the sake of a duel? When there's already a DE character who literally is rumoured to be a fallen Phoenix Lord, constantly stated to be on par and is a specialist duellist as well whose counterpart unit has already been shown? Barking mad.
Imagine a AoS release...
Where they had a Chaos vs Seraphon set up. And showed us, say, a big unit of Khornate Hound Riding Knights...and revealed Arbaal the Undefeated being brought back...and the counterpart unit was Kroxigor....
And imagine all the Lizardmen players going - WELL THE RELEASE IS OBVIOUSLY GOING TO BE LORD KROAK. (And you know, not Nakai the Wanderer, who happens to be a very big Kroxigor special character).
The prophecy does say that Ynnari want to bring Living Muse together with everyone else as well though. So maybe not miniature, but he'll probably play a role in the events.
Tyranid Horde wrote: I am hoping this psychic awaking takes a terrible twist for the Ynnari and they aren't the saviours of the Eldar race, but the destruction. I guess I'm wish listing a little bit but it'd be a cool twist.
At this point the Eldar race has so many separate dooms that latecomers will have to take a number and wait for their turn.
An Actual Englishman wrote: It was clearly a mistake that the art was released and they have scrambled to try and rectify the mistake.
The next unit to be previewed will obviously be Drahzar too. Anyone with even a vague interest in releases and rumours will be aware too - I'm sure every 40k 'news' site has kept the artwork and reported the original name. Not to mention it's incredibly obvious from the picture itself.
As to the release of news on PA - I think people are sick and/or bored of the Marine releases now and I don't believe that providing information on both models this week would mean they have nothing to report next week. They could simply move the news quicker.
The frustration is that 2 things are becoming evident - first the 4 units are likely all that Aeldari players can expect and second that GW aren't looking to release this first PA book as quickly as some of us would hope.
Only these models would be ok.
I am afraid that, given the artwork, it'll be an overpriced big box with the two characters, a 5-squad of the new units and a pile of ancient Guardians / Kabalite sprues every Eldar player already owns in abundance bundled in.
I wonder why people think there'll only be 5 of each of the Incubi and Banshees? Unless things have changed considerably they are both units with 0 loadout options except for the Exarch/Klaivex which means a 5 man squad would take up all of a single sprue. Due to the lack of options I expect them to be similar to the Nemartai Thralls box that had 10 models with loads of head options and a few alternate weapons on 2 sprues for £30.
An Actual Englishman wrote: It was clearly a mistake that the art was released and they have scrambled to try and rectify the mistake.
The next unit to be previewed will obviously be Drahzar too. Anyone with even a vague interest in releases and rumours will be aware too - I'm sure every 40k 'news' site has kept the artwork and reported the original name. Not to mention it's incredibly obvious from the picture itself.
As to the release of news on PA - I think people are sick and/or bored of the Marine releases now and I don't believe that providing information on both models this week would mean they have nothing to report next week. They could simply move the news quicker.
The frustration is that 2 things are becoming evident - first the 4 units are likely all that Aeldari players can expect and second that GW aren't looking to release this first PA book as quickly as some of us would hope.
That would be my guess on the time table. Probably 2-3 weeks off, maybe even a whole month, then whatever the next "wave" of Psychic Awakening is? I don't recall how long was between the Vigilus stuff, but it's unclear if that would even be a "good" guide.
I'd be very surprised if they did 10-man boxes for the new incubi/banshees. I'm guessing they'll be a 35$ or 40$ box for 5, as opposed to the two-sprue boxes that tend to be 50$.
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tneva82 wrote: So you expect unit with no options to be similar to unit with options?
Plus even if it's 10 guys more like 35£ to keep GW trend of upping price of new boxes.
it is a unit with no options, but they are units with really big weapons.
I'm guessing 5-man, single sprue, similar setup to abberrants where you get something like 7 different basic weapon poses plus the special sergeant equipment, and the biggest option involves deciding whether to make the fifth guy as a basic squaddie or as the squad leader.
Due to the elegance of Eldar designs from way back, I'm glad they did not change her too much, just improved the model. To my eye, Eldar don't need to be redesigned, just converted over from resin to plastic. I also can't wait to see what else she does rules wise. If the Exarch is getting Exarch powers, what can we expect from the Phoenix Lord herself.
As for the pose, if we truly wanted to base it on human movement, she's preparing to throw the triskele...it's the only thing that makes sense due to her rotation and coiling of the transverse plane 'sling" of muscles in the body, She just needed a little flex in the right elbow and extension in the shoulder to really give the weapon a better release
That would be my guess on the time table. Probably 2-3 weeks off, maybe even a whole month, then whatever the next "wave" of Psychic Awakening is? I don't recall how long was between the Vigilus stuff, but it's unclear if that would even be a "good" guide.
Don't we have two more weeks of previews for the rank and file Banshees and rank and file Incubi?
It doesn't make any sense for me for Vect to even be on the battlefield.
This is the guy who has styled himself 'the living muse' a godlike figure wrapped in dredded mystery.
There is no reason that he would ever expose himself to actual danger, instead of acting via innumerable agents and proxies.
witchdoctor wrote: Don't we have two more weeks of previews for the rank and file Banshees and rank and file Incubi?
Maybe? I don't know, I don't see why they would do that, but it could be possible. My hypothetical timeline supposes what I'd think is the "quickest" probable-seeming (to me) timeline. Obviously, it could be drawn out as long as they'd like. And I have no idea how long they would like that "drawing out" process to be, nor any idea how to gauge what their thinking would be.
I'd personally think that, if the book is indeed focused on Eldar vs DE, then one week is the minimum for rules preview, although 2 weeks is a more likely frame. So, my guess is 4 weeks is the minimum, 5 or6 weeks is more likely, and it would be 7+ if there are more factions in the Phoenix Rising book. My personal view is that there probably are only Eldar and DE content in this particular book, so I think 5-6 weeks is the "optimistic" timeline, but since we don't know the window they are aiming at, there is nothing to inform us if they want to stay on the slow-and-steady, one preview a week deal, or roll all the rules previews into a week.
dan2026 wrote: It doesn't make any sense for me for Vect to even be on the battlefield. This is the guy who has styled himself 'the living muse' a godlike figure wrapped in dredded mystery.
There is no reason that he would ever expose himself to actual danger, instead of acting via innumerable agents and proxies.
It doesn't make sense for ANY Faction leader like Chapter Masters, Guilliman, Dynastic Overlords, Farseers, high level Ethereals, etc. to see the field. They should be in command posts or doing their actual jobs of leading/running their collective faction. But this is 40K and we need Big Damn Hero/Villain moments, so just like Kirk/Picard/insert favorite Star Trek captain here, they leave where they should be.
dan2026 wrote: It doesn't make any sense for me for Vect to even be on the battlefield.
This is the guy who has styled himself 'the living muse' a godlike figure wrapped in dredded mystery.
There is no reason that he would ever expose himself to actual danger, instead of acting via innumerable agents and proxies.
It doesn't make sense for ANY Faction leader like Chapter Masters, Guilliman, Dynastic Overlords, Farseers, high level Ethereals, etc. to see the field. They should be in command posts or doing their actual jobs of leading/running their collective faction. But this is 40K and we need Big Damn Hero/Villain moments, so just like Kirk/Picard/insert favorite Star Trek captain here, they leave where they should be.
Yeah but Vect has the problem that he is head of the faction that would backstab their granny for a Marsbar.
Gulliman isn't worried about all his top brass sticking a knife in his back.
Your point being? That has no bearing on the fact that these characters have more important things on their plate and should realistically be delegating to lower ranked like actual administrative leadership positions do.
Platuan4th wrote: Your point being? That has no bearing on the fact that these characters have more important things on their plate and should realistically be delegating to lower ranked like actual administrative leadership positions do.
Does anything make sense in this game? I think it’s cooler to have these sweet models we can use rather than not having them, personally.
Platuan4th wrote: Your point being? That has no bearing on the fact that these characters have more important things on their plate and should realistically be delegating to lower ranked like actual administrative leadership positions do.
Does anything make sense in this game? I think it’s cooler to have these sweet models we can use rather than not having them, personally.
dan2026 wrote: It doesn't make any sense for me for Vect to even be on the battlefield.
This is the guy who has styled himself 'the living muse' a godlike figure wrapped in dredded mystery.
There is no reason that he would ever expose himself to actual danger, instead of acting via innumerable agents and proxies.
It doesn't make sense for ANY Faction leader like Chapter Masters, Guilliman, Dynastic Overlords, Farseers, high level Ethereals, etc. to see the field. They should be in command posts or doing their actual jobs of leading/running their collective faction. But this is 40K and we need Big Damn Hero/Villain moments, so just like Kirk/Picard/insert favorite Star Trek captain here, they leave where they should be.
Yeah but Vect has the problem that he is head of the faction that would backstab their granny for a Marsbar.
Gulliman isn't worried about all his top brass sticking a knife in his back.
He... canonically _is_ worried about that. Whether its a revolt, the Ecclesiarchy turning on him for being insufficiently pious (which is actually true), people finding out real history (to the point that he sealed a lot of stuff away), or someone taking off in a direction that he feels will hurt the Imperium and sees him as a barrier, he has a lot of internal strife to deal with.
Not to mention the various governors he's replaced or demoted, who may have sympathetic ears amongst the High Lords, who probably don't appreciate suddenly being second fiddle to the 'Imperial Regent.'
Vect also needs to feed on pain and suffering in staggering amounts so it makes sense for him going on a raid for that at least. Or to have an alibi. Or sending a duplicate. It's not really reasonable to say no to Vect models while we also have Guilliman, Cawl, Yvraine and such.
Red Corsair wrote: There is also the fact that he has already had a model. Every faction should get their big overlord to play with.
I wouldn't exactly cry foul if he did get a model but he's really the last faction overlord I could ever see fluff wise on an actual battlefield.
But that's just my opinion.
I would persoanlly prefer it if the Dark Eldar got back all the other characters who got discarded for not having models. Lady Malys, The Decapitator etc.
Red Corsair wrote: There is also the fact that he has already had a model. Every faction should get their big overlord to play with.
I wouldn't exactly cry foul if he did get a model but he's really the last faction overlord I could ever see fluff wise on an actual battlefield.
But that's just my opinion.
I would persoanlly prefer it if the Dark Eldar got back all the other characters who got discarded for not having models. Lady Malys, The Decapitator etc.
No, just give them the options back.
Like archon on jetbike.
ETC.
no need for the specials imo, because that above would allready help out massivly alone.
dan2026 wrote: It doesn't make any sense for me for Vect to even be on the battlefield.
This is the guy who has styled himself 'the living muse' a godlike figure wrapped in dredded mystery.
There is no reason that he would ever expose himself to actual danger, instead of acting via innumerable agents and proxies.
It doesn't make sense for ANY Faction leader like Chapter Masters, Guilliman, Dynastic Overlords, Farseers, high level Ethereals, etc. to see the field. They should be in command posts or doing their actual jobs of leading/running their collective faction. But this is 40K and we need Big Damn Hero/Villain moments, so just like Kirk/Picard/insert favorite Star Trek captain here, they leave where they should be.
Yeah, I don't envision Guilliman leaving his business to Terra to arrive in all his glory on some nondescript world to battle a bunch of grey gribblies amidst a bunch of shipping containers. Yet this scenario happens on tabletops all over. Curious...
Red Corsair wrote: There is also the fact that he has already had a model. Every faction should get their big overlord to play with.
I wouldn't exactly cry foul if he did get a model but he's really the last faction overlord I could ever see fluff wise on an actual battlefield.
But that's just my opinion.
I would persoanlly prefer it if the Dark Eldar got back all the other characters who got discarded for not having models. Lady Malys, The Decapitator etc.
He certainly can be on the battlefield, but not boot on the ground fighting in CC with Jain Zar, with Incubi armor, and wargear on top, People who think it's Vect, are they even Dark Eldar players? He's an archon, and he would probably prefer sitting safely in the backline taking potshot with long range weapons.
He should be on his personal giant luxury yacht, drinking juice and surrounded by concubines and personal guard, and his yacht should have a Character rule. And some Tantalus-level gun.
Red Corsair wrote: There is also the fact that he has already had a model. Every faction should get their big overlord to play with.
I wouldn't exactly cry foul if he did get a model but he's really the last faction overlord I could ever see fluff wise on an actual battlefield.
But that's just my opinion.
I would persoanlly prefer it if the Dark Eldar got back all the other characters who got discarded for not having models. Lady Malys, The Decapitator etc.
He certainly can be on the battlefield, but not boot on the ground fighting in CC with Jain Zar, with Incubi armor, and wargear on top, People who think it's Vect, are they even Dark Eldar players? He's an archon, and he would probably prefer sitting safely in the backline taking potshot with long range weapons.
Which is why people aren't say that. They're saying the vehicle in the background that doesn't match any current Dark Eldar vehicles currently is his personal ride, the Dais of Destruction.
Yeah, I don't envision Guilliman leaving his business to Terra to arrive in all his glory on some nondescript world to battle a bunch of grey gribblies amidst a bunch of shipping containers. Yet this scenario happens on tabletops all over. Curious...
A long,long time ago, someone at GW (maybe Rick Priestly?) wrote in White Dwarf in response to a mailbag question (I think) to the effect that there would never be statlines to represent the Primarchs or the Emperor on the tabletop, because it would be ridiculous for such figures of legend to appear on a 40k battlefield. Many editions, Scibor not-Primarch models, and FW Horus Heresy books later, here we are.
I am afraid that, given the artwork, it'll be an overpriced big box with the two characters, a 5-squad of the new units and a pile of ancient Guardians / Kabalite sprues every Eldar player already owns in abundance bundled in.
Here's hoping that it's much more Shadowspear than Wake the Dead, eh?
Sunny Side Up wrote: I am afraid that, given the artwork, it'll be an overpriced big box with the two characters, a 5-squad of the new units and a pile of ancient Guardians / Kabalite sprues every Eldar player already owns in abundance bundled in.
A c'mon now. Don't you want another Falcon, Vyper and some Guardians? What about a War Walker? We could all use another War Walker, right?
I am afraid that, given the artwork, it'll be an overpriced big box with the two characters, a 5-squad of the new units and a pile of ancient Guardians / Kabalite sprues every Eldar player already owns in abundance bundled in.
Here's hoping that it's much more Shadowspear than Wake the Dead, eh?
It would be nice to see more Shadowspear type boxes but I doubt we’ll get one for this release. If GW had any more to show I think they’d be moving at a much quicker pace.
That said the box could have only banshees, incubi and our characters as that’s all the units featured in the artwork and technically it’d be similar to shadowspear. Or there might not be any box set with this release.
I am afraid that, given the artwork, it'll be an overpriced big box with the two characters, a 5-squad of the new units and a pile of ancient Guardians / Kabalite sprues every Eldar player already owns in abundance bundled in.
Here's hoping that it's much more Shadowspear than Wake the Dead, eh?
It would be nice to see more Shadowspear type boxes but I doubt we’ll get one for this release. If GW had any more to show I think they’d be moving at a much quicker pace.
That said the box could have only banshees, incubi and our characters as that’s all the units featured in the artwork and technically it’d be similar to shadowspear. Or there might not be any box set with this release.
they could still add existing units to the box, if you look at tooth and claw for example, you can't realy see all the units in the box in the art work
Yeah, I don't envision Guilliman leaving his business to Terra to arrive in all his glory on some nondescript world to battle a bunch of grey gribblies amidst a bunch of shipping containers. Yet this scenario happens on tabletops all over. Curious...
A long,long time ago, someone at GW (maybe Rick Priestly?) wrote in White Dwarf in response to a mailbag question (I think) to the effect that there would never be statlines to represent the Primarchs or the Emperor on the tabletop, because it would be ridiculous for such figures of legend to appear on a 40k battlefield. Many editions, Scibor not-Primarch models, and FW Horus Heresy books later, here we are.
Time has moved on. Many other games with a have the heros and legends from their lore on the table as well, because most people buy, paint and play armies because they enjoy their lore, and that works the other way around as well. If you read about these characters' history and deeds, you want to use them your games.
You read all this awesome fluff about Gulliman, Dorn, The Lion or Leman Russ, and when you get to the rules part of their codex, you find a bunch of "I'm in charge while the boss is out for lunch"-type of characters instead of the guys that actually were part of the history that got everyone there. To me, Calgar, Vulkan He'stan, Lysander, Lucius, Azrael and many of the others have always felt like second rate leaders compared to Eldrad Ulthran, Ghazghkull Thrakka, Kairos Fateweaver, Vect, Farsight, the Swarmlord. Those guys were the real deal, the ones who were shaping history and are still doing it, while every single chapter and legion had to invent some reason why their primarch doesn't give a feth about humanity dying and a guy who had to keep his seat warm - few have managed to do that properly.
Therefore I welcome the return of those real leaders of the space marines, as long as GW provides them with non-insane rules.
For someone coming from MtG, a Legendary Creature was something awesome, because it meant that you could play that character you read about, who was quoted on many other cards and maybe even was a protagonist/antagonist in a novel. Many commander decks are built by picking a character from the background and spells that they would use, effectively playing that character. I never understood the dislike for named characters that many veterans have - IMO it stems from the times where GW told people how to properly have fun and everybody ate it up.
"A character doesn't show up for every little skirmish" is one of the most common arguments. I mean seriously? You can find a fluff reasons for rolling for a random mission, drawing mission objectives from a stack of cards, the presence of 32 guardsmen lead by two commanders super-charging a robot of the size of a multi-story building, space marine captains carrying invaluable relics that keep jumping to their deaths and that's what bothering you?
"Doesn't show up for every single skirmish" also applies to space marines in general, and especially to knights, grey knights or custodes.
WH40k games have stopped being skirmishes a long time ago.
"A character doesn't show up for every little skirmish" is one of the most common arguments. I mean seriously? You can find a fluff reasons for rolling for a random mission, drawing mission objectives from a stack of cards, the presence of 32 guardsmen lead by two commanders super-charging a robot of the size of a multi-story building, space marine captains carrying invaluable relics that keep jumping to their deaths and that's what bothering you?
"Doesn't show up for every single skirmish" also applies to space marines in general, and especially to knights, grey knights or custodes.
WH40k games have stopped being skirmishes a long time ago.
This. And exalt. Lol.
I don't get why people want "fluff-accurate" 40k battles where all players worldwide are forced to play IG conscripts and guardsmen vs. ork boyz, and GW has a yearly lottery for 100 players worldwide to maybe bring a Veteran squad or a Big Mek for one game and 1 or 2 players worldwide to bring a unit of Tactical Marines or a unit of Meganobz for one game.
Time has moved on. Many other games with a have the heros and legends from their lore on the table as well, because most people buy, paint and play armies because they enjoy their lore, and that works the other way around as well. If you read about these characters' history and deeds, you want to use them your games.
You read all this awesome fluff about Gulliman, Dorn, The Lion or Leman Russ, and when you get to the rules part of their codex, you find a bunch of "I'm in charge while the boss is out for lunch"-type of characters instead of the guys that actually were part of the history that got everyone there. To me, Calgar, Vulkan He'stan, Lysander, Lucius, Azrael and many of the others have always felt like second rate leaders compared to Eldrad Ulthran, Ghazghkull Thrakka, Kairos Fateweaver, Vect, Farsight, the Swarmlord. Those guys were the real deal, the ones who were shaping history and are still doing it, while every single chapter and legion had to invent some reason why their primarch doesn't give a feth about humanity dying and a guy who had to keep his seat warm - few have managed to do that properly.
Therefore I welcome the return of those real leaders of the space marines, as long as GW provides them with non-insane rules.
For someone coming from MtG, a Legendary Creature was something awesome, because it meant that you could play that character you read about, who was quoted on many other cards and maybe even was a protagonist/antagonist in a novel. Many commander decks are built by picking a character from the background and spells that they would use, effectively playing that character. I never understood the dislike for named characters that many veterans have - IMO it stems from the times where GW told people how to properly have fun and everybody ate it up.
This is one of the reasons I think the HH project was a mistake, it has shifted the focus from 40k to 30k. So instead of HH being a mythos that helps understand how the factions got to where they are today, most of the factions identity and lore are concentrated in 30k, so in effect, the 40k faction is just a stunted version of their 30k faction. This is especially true for the traitor legions, less so for the loyalist.
Vect could be represented by a strategem, but GW would not make alot of money on that, would they?
Im kind of glad they didnt try to make a silver tower for K-sons. Instead they did a strategem, i think, and also warhammer quest for AoS.
Perhaps they could do a 40k version of warcry set in Vects dungeon arena to represent the living muse.
Anyway, you think banshees will follow the established aspect ratio of 6 warriors per box. That has always annoyed me. And banshees are such a horribly poor unit I feel there have to be a 10 model box to make it worth considering.
This is one of the reasons I think the HH project was a mistake, it has shifted the focus from 40k to 30k. So instead of HH being a mythos that helps understand how the factions got to where they are today, most of the factions identity and lore are concentrated in 30k, so in effect, the 40k faction is just a stunted version of their 30k faction. This is especially true for the traitor legions, less so for the loyalist.
That was sort of always the case though. The chapters have always been explained as watered down versions of the legions, full of pomp and ceremony and rules that they don't understand the significance of.
I like the Heresy setting. It is fundamental to 40k in a way that other time frames of the setting aren't really. The Scouring? the Legions had been shaped to the Chapters already. shaped.
The Great Crusade? 40k/the Imperium isn't the way it is because of that. It was merely the expansion from Terra across the stars.
The Age of Apostasy? What changes in 40k if that doesn't happen?
The Heresy is key because it explain why the Chapters exist. It touches on the links and schism in Mars. How the Traitor Legions infest the galaxy. Why the Chaos powers are interested in humanity, and where there power comes from.
Is it essential to play/read it? I guess not as you can get a summary from rulebooks/codecies, but you miss a lot of the subtlety and nuance that the BL novels and FW black books can give.
As for the Guilliamn/Vect/etc/. on a battlefield, I always thought it was because you weren't playing out the whole war on that one 6'x4' space, but that it was a few hundred meters of a miles long battle line, for one battle on that continent, during a particular stage of the war for that planet/system.
Calgar and Eldrad were present because one had 'sought' out the other, whether that was because they were heading to the point of fiercest resistance to break the enemy, because the needed to decapitate enemy forces, the threads of Fate say they need to force certain conditions etc.
Yeah, I don't envision Guilliman leaving his business to Terra to arrive in all his glory on some nondescript world to battle a bunch of grey gribblies amidst a bunch of shipping containers. Yet this scenario happens on tabletops all over. Curious...
A long,long time ago, someone at GW (maybe Rick Priestly?) wrote in White Dwarf in response to a mailbag question (I think) to the effect that there would never be statlines to represent the Primarchs or the Emperor on the tabletop, because it would be ridiculous for such figures of legend to appear on a 40k battlefield. Many editions, Scibor not-Primarch models, and FW Horus Heresy books later, here we are.
Time has moved on. Many other games with a have the heros and legends from their lore on the table as well, because most people buy, paint and play armies because they enjoy their lore, and that works the other way around as well. If you read about these characters' history and deeds, you want to use them your games.
You read all this awesome fluff about Gulliman, Dorn, The Lion or Leman Russ, and when you get to the rules part of their codex, you find a bunch of "I'm in charge while the boss is out for lunch"-type of characters instead of the guys that actually were part of the history that got everyone there. To me, Calgar, Vulkan He'stan, Lysander, Lucius, Azrael and many of the others have always felt like second rate leaders compared to Eldrad Ulthran, Ghazghkull Thrakka, Kairos Fateweaver, Vect, Farsight, the Swarmlord. Those guys were the real deal, the ones who were shaping history and are still doing it, while every single chapter and legion had to invent some reason why their primarch doesn't give a feth about humanity dying and a guy who had to keep his seat warm - few have managed to do that properly.
Therefore I welcome the return of those real leaders of the space marines, as long as GW provides them with non-insane rules.
For someone coming from MtG, a Legendary Creature was something awesome, because it meant that you could play that character you read about, who was quoted on many other cards and maybe even was a protagonist/antagonist in a novel. Many commander decks are built by picking a character from the background and spells that they would use, effectively playing that character. I never understood the dislike for named characters that many veterans have - IMO it stems from the times where GW told people how to properly have fun and everybody ate it up.
"A character doesn't show up for every little skirmish" is one of the most common arguments. I mean seriously? You can find a fluff reasons for rolling for a random mission, drawing mission objectives from a stack of cards, the presence of 32 guardsmen lead by two commanders super-charging a robot of the size of a multi-story building, space marine captains carrying invaluable relics that keep jumping to their deaths and that's what bothering you?
"Doesn't show up for every single skirmish" also applies to space marines in general, and especially to knights, grey knights or custodes.
WH40k games have stopped being skirmishes a long time ago.
The primarchs were never the prime movers of the 40k narrative. They were always background color, their ridiculous caricatured names and descriptions intended to give the reader a sense that the setting was an unreliable narrator, much like many 80s Grimdark settings like Judge Dredd and Robocop.
And now, Marine players have been fed this all-marines-all-the-time setting where they don't have to deal with any of the dramatic irony of the 41st millenium that occasionally makes them feel like their super duper heroes might be somewhat ignorant, regressed versions of their former glory instead of cool edgy atheists that know the emperor personally and have all the latest cutting-edge technology and they are not having it.
Demanding that we have Primarchs because Chapter Masters are not cool enough and not cutting it is like saying Ghazkhull isn't good enough because he's just the PROPHET of gork and mork and it's ridiculous that we can't bring either Gork OR Mork to the table? Who is this second fiddle kairos guy, GIVE ME A TZEENTCH MINIATURE!!
Calgar, Grimnar, and Azrael are not on some level below Ghazghull, Swarmlord or Eldrad. They're on the same level. Primarchs are the myths and legends of the setting, and it's obvious looking at the rules for Magnus, Guilliman and Mortarion that introducing more of them into the setting is condemning other factions to never having any heroes who could possibly make a dent in them. What can Ghazghkull ever hope to accomplish against Guilliman? He gets rocked in one turn by the Emperor's Sword and doesn't even take guilliman to half-health. And that's the weakest primarch that currently exists versus one of the best named characters from another faction at melee.
Shadenuat wrote: He should be on his personal giant luxury yacht, drinking juice and surrounded by concubines and personal guard, and his yacht should have a Character rule. And some Tantalus-level gun.
Sounds like a good lord of war choice and model (again) - def better than Santa Logan......
Also people forget Vecht and the other DE lords and ladies have contigencies in case they die - thats what Hormunclus are for.
Yeah, I don't envision Guilliman leaving his business to Terra to arrive in all his glory on some nondescript world to battle a bunch of grey gribblies amidst a bunch of shipping containers. Yet this scenario happens on tabletops all over. Curious...
A long,long time ago, someone at GW (maybe Rick Priestly?) wrote in White Dwarf in response to a mailbag question (I think) to the effect that there would never be statlines to represent the Primarchs or the Emperor on the tabletop, because it would be ridiculous for such figures of legend to appear on a 40k battlefield. Many editions, Scibor not-Primarch models, and FW Horus Heresy books later, here we are.
Meanwhile, over in Epic at that same era, GeeDubs was all "here's your Daemon Primarchs!"
dan2026 wrote: It doesn't make any sense for me for Vect to even be on the battlefield.
This is the guy who has styled himself 'the living muse' a godlike figure wrapped in dredded mystery.
There is no reason that he would ever expose himself to actual danger, instead of acting via innumerable agents and proxies.
It doesn't make sense for ANY Faction leader like Chapter Masters, Guilliman, Dynastic Overlords, Farseers, high level Ethereals, etc. to see the field. They should be in command posts or doing their actual jobs of leading/running their collective faction. But this is 40K and we need Big Damn Hero/Villain moments, so just like Kirk/Picard/insert favorite Star Trek captain here, they leave where they should be.
Yeah, I don't envision Guilliman leaving his business to Terra to arrive in all his glory on some nondescript world to battle a bunch of grey gribblies amidst a bunch of shipping containers. Yet this scenario happens on tabletops all over. Curious...
Being a faux roman, Guilliman knows that his power stems from the accolades of his soldiers, and knows that military command is where he is most secure in his power. Retreat to the capitol and start administering, and ambitious warlords you leave in charge start considering themselves above your law and out of your reach. Some of them may, secure in the loyalty of their men, declare themselves the new head of state and turn their armies towards those ends, as the emperor learned when he withdrew from the great crusade.
To try and hold court on Terra would cost Guilliman the imperium. Maintaining a mobile military court, as later Roman emperors did, is the best way to maintain the most important power base in a highly militarized and overly fractious realm. That of the military.
Time has moved on. Many other games with a have the heros and legends from their lore on the table as well, because most people buy, paint and play armies because they enjoy their lore, and that works the other way around as well. If you read about these characters' history and deeds, you want to use them your games.
You read all this awesome fluff about Gulliman, Dorn, The Lion or Leman Russ, and when you get to the rules part of their codex, you find a bunch of "I'm in charge while the boss is out for lunch"-type of characters instead of the guys that actually were part of the history that got everyone there. To me, Calgar, Vulkan He'stan, Lysander, Lucius, Azrael and many of the others have always felt like second rate leaders compared to Eldrad Ulthran, Ghazghkull Thrakka, Kairos Fateweaver, Vect, Farsight, the Swarmlord. Those guys were the real deal, the ones who were shaping history and are still doing it, while every single chapter and legion had to invent some reason why their primarch doesn't give a feth about humanity dying and a guy who had to keep his seat warm - few have managed to do that properly.
Therefore I welcome the return of those real leaders of the space marines, as long as GW provides them with non-insane rules.
For someone coming from MtG, a Legendary Creature was something awesome, because it meant that you could play that character you read about, who was quoted on many other cards and maybe even was a protagonist/antagonist in a novel. Many commander decks are built by picking a character from the background and spells that they would use, effectively playing that character. I never understood the dislike for named characters that many veterans have - IMO it stems from the times where GW told people how to properly have fun and everybody ate it up.
This is one of the reasons I think the HH project was a mistake, it has shifted the focus from 40k to 30k. So instead of HH being a mythos that helps understand how the factions got to where they are today, most of the factions identity and lore are concentrated in 30k, so in effect, the 40k faction is just a stunted version of their 30k faction. This is especially true for the traitor legions, less so for the loyalist.
I think this is a fair opinion, and while I disagree with it, I think it raises an important point. At least as far as the Loyalist and Chaos Space Marines are concerned, it does feel like 30k has a much more in-depth concentration of lore. Honestly I've taken to just using 30k resources to influence my 40k armies because by comparison the 40k Space Marine factions seem bland and shallow (thanks Codex Astartes). I think this could be remedied (more varied splash art, examples and explanations of heraldry, examples of specific Chapter/Warband cultures etc), but until/unless it is I definitely see it as one of the shortcomings of the current setting (again just in regards to Space Marines). Just my opinion though.
dan2026 wrote: It doesn't make any sense for me for Vect to even be on the battlefield.
This is the guy who has styled himself 'the living muse' a godlike figure wrapped in dredded mystery.
There is no reason that he would ever expose himself to actual danger, instead of acting via innumerable agents and proxies.
It doesn't make sense for ANY Faction leader like Chapter Masters, Guilliman, Dynastic Overlords, Farseers, high level Ethereals, etc. to see the field. They should be in command posts or doing their actual jobs of leading/running their collective faction. But this is 40K and we need Big Damn Hero/Villain moments, so just like Kirk/Picard/insert favorite Star Trek captain here, they leave where they should be.
Yeah, I don't envision Guilliman leaving his business to Terra to arrive in all his glory on some nondescript world to battle a bunch of grey gribblies amidst a bunch of shipping containers. Yet this scenario happens on tabletops all over. Curious...
Truest exchange I have ever witnessed.
I want to put the whole thing in a banner
like a warning label on every named character box
similar to the warning labels found on cigarettes (in some places, at least) -
something really gruesome.
dan2026 wrote: It doesn't make any sense for me for Vect to even be on the battlefield.
This is the guy who has styled himself 'the living muse' a godlike figure wrapped in dredded mystery.
There is no reason that he would ever expose himself to actual danger, instead of acting via innumerable agents and proxies.
It doesn't make sense for ANY Faction leader like Chapter Masters, Guilliman, Dynastic Overlords, Farseers, high level Ethereals, etc. to see the field. They should be in command posts or doing their actual jobs of leading/running their collective faction. But this is 40K and we need Big Damn Hero/Villain moments, so just like Kirk/Picard/insert favorite Star Trek captain here, they leave where they should be.
Yeah, I don't envision Guilliman leaving his business to Terra to arrive in all his glory on some nondescript world to battle a bunch of grey gribblies amidst a bunch of shipping containers. Yet this scenario happens on tabletops all over. Curious...
Truest exchange I have ever witnessed.
I want to put the whole thing in a banner
like a warning label on every named character box
similar to the warning labels found on cigarettes (in some places, at least) -
something really gruesome.
It's really more a critique of peoples gaming tables than the presence of special characters.
That was sort of always the case though. The chapters have always been explained as watered down versions of the legions, full of pomp and ceremony and rules that they don't understand the significance of.
I like the Heresy setting. It is fundamental to 40k in a way that other time frames of the setting aren't really. The Scouring? the Legions had been shaped to the Chapters already. shaped.
The Great Crusade? 40k/the Imperium isn't the way it is because of that. It was merely the expansion from Terra across the stars.
The Age of Apostasy? What changes in 40k if that doesn't happen?
The Heresy is key because it explain why the Chapters exist. It touches on the links and schism in Mars. How the Traitor Legions infest the galaxy. Why the Chaos powers are interested in humanity, and where there power comes from.
Is it essential to play/read it? I guess not as you can get a summary from rulebooks/codecies, but you miss a lot of the subtlety and nuance that the BL novels and FW black books can give.
I think this is a fair opinion, and while I disagree with it, I think it raises an important point. At least as far as the Loyalist and Chaos Space Marines are concerned, it does feel like 30k has a much more in-depth concentration of lore. Honestly I've taken to just using 30k resources to influence my 40k armies because by comparison the 40k Space Marine factions seem bland and shallow (thanks Codex Astartes). I think this could be remedied (more varied splash art, examples and explanations of heraldry, examples of specific Chapter/Warband cultures etc), but until/unless it is I definitely see it as one of the shortcomings of the current setting (again just in regards to Space Marines). Just my opinion though.
I like the HH as well, I loved reading about it in the old index astartes books, but I loved it as background/mythos that helped flesh out factions in 40k. I agree we have reached a point where many of the legions (especially the traitor ones) have more lore/fluff about them in 30k then in 40k, which is totally backwards IMO.
JSG wrote: It's really more a critique of peoples gaming tables than the presence of special characters.
Kinda.
To be clear, I don't have issues with special characters in games, just because I recognize that most games of 40K played aren't 'representative' anyway. Just look at the armies and tables, LOL. Usually they aren't straight out of the fluff and artwork anyway, so the presence of a Guilliman model usually doesn't shatter some kind of perfectly immersive experience.
In narrative gaming one might seek a higher level of immersion and push harder for more 'representation', but the beauty there is that you can forge a narrative to explain why said character is on said battlefield surrounded by said army.
Yeah, I don't envision Guilliman leaving his business to Terra to arrive in all his glory on some nondescript world to battle a bunch of grey gribblies amidst a bunch of shipping containers. Yet this scenario happens on tabletops all over. Curious...
A long,long time ago, someone at GW (maybe Rick Priestly?) wrote in White Dwarf in response to a mailbag question (I think) to the effect that there would never be statlines to represent the Primarchs or the Emperor on the tabletop, because it would be ridiculous for such figures of legend to appear on a 40k battlefield. Many editions, Scibor not-Primarch models, and FW Horus Heresy books later, here we are.
Meanwhile, over in Epic at that same era, GeeDubs was all "here's your Daemon Primarchs!"
Then again that's not 40k battlefield but epic. More big scale battles rather than handfull random guys.
Time has moved on. Many other games with a have the heros and legends from their lore on the table as well, because most people buy, paint and play armies because they enjoy their lore, and that works the other way around as well. If you read about these characters' history and deeds, you want to use them your games.
You read all this awesome fluff about Gulliman, Dorn, The Lion or Leman Russ, and when you get to the rules part of their codex, you find a bunch of "I'm in charge while the boss is out for lunch"-type of characters instead of the guys that actually were part of the history that got everyone there. To me, Calgar, Vulkan He'stan, Lysander, Lucius, Azrael and many of the others have always felt like second rate leaders compared to Eldrad Ulthran, Ghazghkull Thrakka, Kairos Fateweaver, Vect, Farsight, the Swarmlord. Those guys were the real deal, the ones who were shaping history and are still doing it, while every single chapter and legion had to invent some reason why their primarch doesn't give a feth about humanity dying and a guy who had to keep his seat warm - few have managed to do that properly.
Therefore I welcome the return of those real leaders of the space marines, as long as GW provides them with non-insane rules.
For someone coming from MtG, a Legendary Creature was something awesome, because it meant that you could play that character you read about, who was quoted on many other cards and maybe even was a protagonist/antagonist in a novel. Many commander decks are built by picking a character from the background and spells that they would use, effectively playing that character. I never understood the dislike for named characters that many veterans have - IMO it stems from the times where GW told people how to properly have fun and everybody ate it up.
This is one of the reasons I think the HH project was a mistake, it has shifted the focus from 40k to 30k. So instead of HH being a mythos that helps understand how the factions got to where they are today, most of the factions identity and lore are concentrated in 30k, so in effect, the 40k faction is just a stunted version of their 30k faction. This is especially true for the traitor legions, less so for the loyalist.
I got this impression when picking up the game in 5th though - long before 30k and the Horus Heresy novels.
Yeah, I don't envision Guilliman leaving his business to Terra to arrive in all his glory on some nondescript world to battle a bunch of grey gribblies amidst a bunch of shipping containers. Yet this scenario happens on tabletops all over. Curious...
A long,long time ago, someone at GW (maybe Rick Priestly?) wrote in White Dwarf in response to a mailbag question (I think) to the effect that there would never be statlines to represent the Primarchs or the Emperor on the tabletop, because it would be ridiculous for such figures of legend to appear on a 40k battlefield. Many editions, Scibor not-Primarch models, and FW Horus Heresy books later, here we are.
Meanwhile, over in Epic at that same era, GeeDubs was all "here's your Daemon Primarchs!"
Then again that's not 40k battlefield but epic. More big scale battles rather than handfull random guys.
Yeah, I don't envision Guilliman leaving his business to Terra to arrive in all his glory on some nondescript world to battle a bunch of grey gribblies amidst a bunch of shipping containers. Yet this scenario happens on tabletops all over. Curious...
A long,long time ago, someone at GW (maybe Rick Priestly?) wrote in White Dwarf in response to a mailbag question (I think) to the effect that there would never be statlines to represent the Primarchs or the Emperor on the tabletop, because it would be ridiculous for such figures of legend to appear on a 40k battlefield. Many editions, Scibor not-Primarch models, and FW Horus Heresy books later, here we are.
Time has moved on. Many other games with a have the heros and legends from their lore on the table as well, because most people buy, paint and play armies because they enjoy their lore, and that works the other way around as well. If you read about these characters' history and deeds, you want to use them your games.
You read all this awesome fluff about Gulliman, Dorn, The Lion or Leman Russ, and when you get to the rules part of their codex, you find a bunch of "I'm in charge while the boss is out for lunch"-type of characters instead of the guys that actually were part of the history that got everyone there. To me, Calgar, Vulkan He'stan, Lysander, Lucius, Azrael and many of the others have always felt like second rate leaders compared to Eldrad Ulthran, Ghazghkull Thrakka, Kairos Fateweaver, Vect, Farsight, the Swarmlord. Those guys were the real deal, the ones who were shaping history and are still doing it, while every single chapter and legion had to invent some reason why their primarch doesn't give a feth about humanity dying and a guy who had to keep his seat warm - few have managed to do that properly.
Therefore I welcome the return of those real leaders of the space marines, as long as GW provides them with non-insane rules.
For someone coming from MtG, a Legendary Creature was something awesome, because it meant that you could play that character you read about, who was quoted on many other cards and maybe even was a protagonist/antagonist in a novel. Many commander decks are built by picking a character from the background and spells that they would use, effectively playing that character. I never understood the dislike for named characters that many veterans have - IMO it stems from the times where GW told people how to properly have fun and everybody ate it up.
"A character doesn't show up for every little skirmish" is one of the most common arguments. I mean seriously? You can find a fluff reasons for rolling for a random mission, drawing mission objectives from a stack of cards, the presence of 32 guardsmen lead by two commanders super-charging a robot of the size of a multi-story building, space marine captains carrying invaluable relics that keep jumping to their deaths and that's what bothering you?
"Doesn't show up for every single skirmish" also applies to space marines in general, and especially to knights, grey knights or custodes.
WH40k games have stopped being skirmishes a long time ago.
The primarchs were never the prime movers of the 40k narrative. They were always background color, their ridiculous caricatured names and descriptions intended to give the reader a sense that the setting was an unreliable narrator, much like many 80s Grimdark settings like Judge Dredd and Robocop.
And now, Marine players have been fed this all-marines-all-the-time setting where they don't have to deal with any of the dramatic irony of the 41st millenium that occasionally makes them feel like their super duper heroes might be somewhat ignorant, regressed versions of their former glory instead of cool edgy atheists that know the emperor personally and have all the latest cutting-edge technology and they are not having it.
Demanding that we have Primarchs because Chapter Masters are not cool enough and not cutting it is like saying Ghazkhull isn't good enough because he's just the PROPHET of gork and mork and it's ridiculous that we can't bring either Gork OR Mork to the table? Who is this second fiddle kairos guy, GIVE ME A TZEENTCH MINIATURE!!
Calgar, Grimnar, and Azrael are not on some level below Ghazghull, Swarmlord or Eldrad. They're on the same level. Primarchs are the myths and legends of the setting, and it's obvious looking at the rules for Magnus, Guilliman and Mortarion that introducing more of them into the setting is condemning other factions to never having any heroes who could possibly make a dent in them. What can Ghazghkull ever hope to accomplish against Guilliman? He gets rocked in one turn by the Emperor's Sword and doesn't even take guilliman to half-health. And that's the weakest primarch that currently exists versus one of the best named characters from another faction at melee.
That's largely a problem with how characters in the non-Space Marine factions have been implemented into the game though, not an issue with the primarchs either themselves or as a concept.
Why for example are Eldar players allowed to field the Phoenix Lords? They are each singular monolithic icons of not only their respective temple but also representative of the path system, the very societal essence of the Craftworld Eldar, and have histories stretching all the way back to the Fall. Honestly every description of them makes them sound like they should be threats on the level of a Primarch, and yet they are basically just a slightly better Exarch...
Avatar of Khaine, a temporary partial reincarnation of the Eldar god of war requiring significant sacrifice and only considered for use in the most desperate of times. Apparently not on the level of even a singular Chapter Master given how many have been dumpstered in the lore.
Let's also not forget that you can field some of the greatest champion demons of all four Chaos gods such as Skarbrand, Epidemius, Kairos Fateweaker, etc. All apparently not Primarch level threats.
From 4e-5e you could field two of the actual C'tan, specifically the Nightbringer who was the greatest remaining martially gifted C'tan. Even now you can still field C'tan shards which are I guess just a minor threat escalation?
The point being that based on their positions within the lore I would argue that all of these should be at or above Primarch level threats, not just a "send Dante and some unnamed Sanguinary Meatshield to take care of it" problem. I say all of that as a marine player who has been part of the hobby since 4e.
Most of the non-marine named characters have been Worf-ed because they have been forced to get slapped around by Blue Chapter Master, Red Chapter Master, Green Chapter Master, etc since the earliest lore.
Honestly it would have probably been better for the overall setting if the primarchs had been around the whole time since "the Nightbringer gets barely beaten by Guilliman" is much less embarrassing than "Nightbringer gets suplexed by Uriel Ventris". If anything the HH has reduced the power level of the Primarchs since we get to see them slapped around by all sorts of random Xenos, demons, and each other. Heck, the custodes which are now in 40k, are apparently able to take on Primarchs if you chose a long enough named one and put them in the right combat scenario.
So yeah, I don't know, but the idea that the Primarchs are "too big for 40k" just seems pretty laughable when you stop to consider all the other rediculous stuff running around gaming tables since the start of the game.
The old RPG maxim of "Give it stats and the players will find a way to kill it" holds true when it comes to Primarchs or any other characters.
Once something is given stats, it is given limitations and weaknesses, which means however unlikely it is possible to defeat it and make it look bad. Could a Gretchin defeat Guilliman? Unlikely but given enough time, enough games, somewhere out there it is going to happen.
I always thought proper Primarch level rules for 40k would be something like:
We each deploy our Primarch or Primarch level being. Each turn they march directly towards each other killing any enemy model unlucky enough to find itself within 6" of said Primarch. When they reach each other they fight. For the rest of the game they fight. On each players turn they move d3 in a random direction still locked in combat. Again each Primarch killing any enemy model unlucky enough to be caught up in the Titanic struggle.
Why? Because Lt Dan should not be able to kill a Primarch simply because he charged and swings first with his hammer and Angron got unlucky with his saves. Primarch battles should be Epic. And yet they never are when i see them on the table. I'm looking at you Mortarion when you got run over by a Baneblade. Or when Magnus died to Lasgun fire that one time. Or when Gulliman tripped on a hair-squig and broke his silly neck. Ok that last one didn't happen. But you get the point. Seeing any Primarch get chumped makes them far less epic.
Justyn wrote: I always thought proper Primarch level rules for 40k would be something like:
We each deploy our Primarch or Primarch level being. Each turn they march directly towards each other killing any enemy model unlucky enough to find itself within 6" of said Primarch. When they reach each other they fight. For the rest of the game they fight. On each players turn they move d3 in a random direction still locked in combat. Again each Primarch killing any enemy model unlucky enough to be caught up in the Titanic struggle.
Why? Because Lt Dan should not be able to kill a Primarch simply because he charged and swings first with his hammer and Angron got unlucky with his saves. Primarch battles should be Epic. And yet they never are when i see them on the table. I'm looking at you Mortarion when you got run over by a Baneblade. Or when Magnus died to Lasgun fire that one time. Or when Gulliman tripped on a hair-squig and broke his silly neck. Ok that last one didn't happen. But you get the point. Seeing any Primarch get chumped makes them far less epic.
Yeah, I pictured it this way too...
The weight of future-history also bear representing.
Some power of destiny that doesn't let the (anti)hero fall.
Justyn wrote: I always thought proper Primarch level rules for 40k would be something like:
We each deploy our Primarch or Primarch level being. Each turn they march directly towards each other killing any enemy model unlucky enough to find itself within 6" of said Primarch. When they reach each other they fight. For the rest of the game they fight. On each players turn they move d3 in a random direction still locked in combat. Again each Primarch killing any enemy model unlucky enough to be caught up in the Titanic struggle.
Except WH40k doesn't support or reward this behavior, quite the opposite. Two heroes (not just primarchs, but pretty much any named characters of similar power) dueling each other always boils down to who rolls better saves, it can't get any less epic than that.
It's no more an RPG than a game of risk is.
Why? Because Lt Dan should not be able to kill a Primarch simply because he charged and swings first with his hammer and Angron got unlucky with his saves. Primarch battles should be Epic. And yet they never are when i see them on the table. I'm looking at you Mortarion when you got run over by a Baneblade. Or when Magnus died to Lasgun fire that one time. Or when Gulliman tripped on a hair-squig and broke his silly neck. Ok that last one didn't happen. But you get the point. Seeing any Primarch get chumped makes them far less epic.
The other two didn't happen either. You also need to understand that some of the ridiculous feats Primarchs(and others) have done during their respective novels are nothing but plot armor and overblown story-telling. Having an enjoyable game is far more important that doing all the silly stuff that happen in the lore.
I often face Magnus and play Mortarion regularly myself. I also assure you that both Magnus and Mortarion leave an epic portion of devastation on the battlefield unless they are removed ASAP - and the amount of firepower to remove them is non-trivial either. We are talking about a single person taking the same punishment that's needed to remove small titans, not even greater demons can match that.
If you are looking for immersion, you should try to interpret game events in a way that keep you immersed, rather than tearing yourself out of it whenever anything doesn't go exactly as you envisioned it.
The other two didn't happen either. You also need to understand that some of the ridiculous feats Primarchs(and others) have done during their respective novels are nothing but plot armor and overblown story-telling. Having an enjoyable game is far more important that doing all the silly stuff that happen in the lore.
I often face Magnus and play Mortarion regularly myself. I also assure you that both Magnus and Mortarion leave an epic portion of devastation on the battlefield unless they are removed ASAP - and the amount of firepower to remove them is non-trivial either. We are talking about a single person taking the same punishment that's needed to remove small titans, not even greater demons can match that.
If you are looking for immersion, I suggest immersing yourself instead throwing a tantrum as soon as something doesn't match your head-canon.
Man, if posting an off hand thought online is throwing a tantrum in your book I'd hate to be around you in RL. Do you react the same way when people ask you if you are having a nice day? If they comment that the weather is nice? Have a nice day, I hope the weather where you live is great!!!
The other two are things I have seen happen on the tabletop. That was the point of the thought. That said if they make a Primarch (or similar model) for something I play, hell yes I'll use it if the model looks cool. Cool models > all.
Jack Flask wrote: -snip-
So yeah, I don't know, but the idea that the Primarchs are "too big for 40k" just seems pretty laughable when you stop to consider all the other rediculous stuff running around gaming tables since the start of the game.
And this is why it was a mistake for GW to make Special Characters the focus of both the game and the lore, rather than opponent's permission only extras meant for narrative games. The idea that stuff like Pheonix Lords and C'tan would show up regularly on the tabletop has *not* been around "since the start of the game". Up until probably 5th edition the focus was very much on Your Dudes and you brought out special characters for narrative campaigns, or "my dad could beat up your dad" joke games, or just for a bit of variety on occasion. Some people certainly tried to bring their favourite snowflake to every game, and some players were willing to accommodate that, but it was very much not the default approach.
40K as saturday morning cartoon where everyone plays along with the story about the Big Hero Punchy Men is still a pretty recent state of affairs.
Jack Flask wrote: -snip- So yeah, I don't know, but the idea that the Primarchs are "too big for 40k" just seems pretty laughable when you stop to consider all the other rediculous stuff running around gaming tables since the start of the game.
And this is why it was a mistake for GW to make Special Characters the focus of both the game and the lore, rather than opponent's permission only extras meant for narrative games. The idea that stuff like Pheonix Lords and C'tan would show up regularly on the tabletop has *not* been around "since the start of the game". Up until probably 5th edition the focus was very much on Your Dudes and you brought out special characters for narrative campaigns, or "my dad could beat up your dad" joke games, or just for a bit of variety on occasion. Some people certainly tried to bring their favourite snowflake to every game, and some players were willing to accommodate that, but it was very much not the default approach.
40K as saturday morning cartoon where everyone plays along with the story about the Big Hero Punchy Men is still a pretty recent state of affairs.
You are officially considered old when you refer to events that happened a decade ago as "recent". And that's assuming that this actually started with 5th, in my area named characters were pretty normal even during 4th.
Justyn wrote: I always thought proper Primarch level rules for 40k would be something like:
We each deploy our Primarch or Primarch level being. Each turn they march directly towards each other killing any enemy model unlucky enough to find itself within 6" of said Primarch. When they reach each other they fight. For the rest of the game they fight. On each players turn they move d3 in a random direction still locked in combat. Again each Primarch killing any enemy model unlucky enough to be caught up in the Titanic struggle.
Except WH40k doesn't support or reward this behavior, quite the opposite. Two heroes (not just primarchs, but pretty much any named characters of similar power) dueling each other always boils down to who rolls better saves, it can't get any less epic than that.
It's no more an RPG than a game of risk is.
Why? Because Lt Dan should not be able to kill a Primarch simply because he charged and swings first with his hammer and Angron got unlucky with his saves. Primarch battles should be Epic. And yet they never are when i see them on the table. I'm looking at you Mortarion when you got run over by a Baneblade. Or when Magnus died to Lasgun fire that one time. Or when Gulliman tripped on a hair-squig and broke his silly neck. Ok that last one didn't happen. But you get the point. Seeing any Primarch get chumped makes them far less epic.
The other two didn't happen either. You also need to understand that some of the ridiculous feats Primarchs(and others) have done during their respective novels are nothing but plot armor and overblown story-telling. Having an enjoyable game is far more important that doing all the silly stuff that happen in the lore.
I often face Magnus and play Mortarion regularly myself. I also assure you that both Magnus and Mortarion leave an epic portion of devastation on the battlefield unless they are removed ASAP - and the amount of firepower to remove them is non-trivial either. We are talking about a single person taking the same punishment that's needed to remove small titans, not even greater demons can match that.
If you are looking for immersion, I suggest immersing yourself instead throwing a tantrum as soon as something doesn't match your head-canon.
I feel like the level of vitriol you're bringing is uncalled for, but I do agree with what I think you are trying to convey.
In general after reading Dakka for so long I've noticed that the vast majority of players seem really bad at using their imagination to properly contextualize their games within the setting.
Basically, players should be assuming the following about all of their 40k games:
The battle on your table is not the entire battle which would actually be occurring in the narrative. If not for the number of units present then almost certainly for the scale of the engagement area.
The battle you are playing is NOT just a normal engagement within a larger warzone. You are playing the inflection point of that conflict, the moment and location at which one army pushes the other onto the back foot. (Killteam can largely be an exception to this)
Named characters reduced to 0 wounds are NOT killed, rather their removal from the table indicates said character either being incapacitated or forced into retreat due to non-trivial injuries. This also applies to players' homebrew characters unless decided otherwise in advance for things like narrative campaigns. ("Hey for our narrative campaign do you want to make any character deaths permanent?")
If those 3 assumptions are woven into your tabletop narrative then it's really hard to find a situation which compromises your immersion.
That's of course assuming you are playing a game with any narrative basis at all. If you are playing unorganized pick-up games or building your force based on "efficiency" then you forfeit all rights to complain about anything narrative related.
Jack Flask wrote: I feel like the level of vitriol you're bringing is uncalled for, but I do agree with what I think you are trying to convey.
In general after reading Dakka for so long I've noticed that the vast majority of players seem really bad at using their imagination to properly contextualize their games within the setting.
Basically, players should be assuming the following about all of their 40k games:
The battle on your table is not the entire battle which would actually be occurring in the narrative. If not for the number of units present then almost certainly for the scale of the engagement area.
The battle you are playing is NOT just a normal engagement within a larger warzone. You are playing the inflection point of that conflict, the moment and location at which one army pushes the other onto the back foot. (Killteam can largely be an exception to this)
Named characters reduced to 0 wounds are NOT killed, rather their removal from the table indicates said character either being incapacitated or forced into retreat due to non-trivial injuries. This also applies to players' homebrew characters unless decided otherwise in advance for things like narrative campaigns. ("Hey for our narrative campaign do you want to make any character deaths permanent?")
If those 3 assumptions are woven into your tabletop narrative then it's really hard to find a situation which compromises your immersion.
That's of course assuming you are playing a game with any narrative basis at all. If you are playing unorganized pick-up games or building your force based on "efficiency" then you forfeit all rights to complain about anything narrative related.
I thought every player thought these three things?
Aren't they common assumptions we all hold when playing our games?
If you are looking for immersion, I suggest immersing yourself instead throwing a tantrum as soon as something doesn't match your head-canon.
That was totally uncalled for in response to such a well thought out and rational post, please don't post in a similar manner again (not least its against rule1).
Jack Flask wrote: -snip- So yeah, I don't know, but the idea that the Primarchs are "too big for 40k" just seems pretty laughable when you stop to consider all the other rediculous stuff running around gaming tables since the start of the game.
And this is why it was a mistake for GW to make Special Characters the focus of both the game and the lore, rather than opponent's permission only extras meant for narrative games. The idea that stuff like Pheonix Lords and C'tan would show up regularly on the tabletop has *not* been around "since the start of the game". Up until probably 5th edition the focus was very much on Your Dudes and you brought out special characters for narrative campaigns, or "my dad could beat up your dad" joke games, or just for a bit of variety on occasion. Some people certainly tried to bring their favourite snowflake to every game, and some players were willing to accommodate that, but it was very much not the default approach.
40K as saturday morning cartoon where everyone plays along with the story about the Big Hero Punchy Men is still a pretty recent state of affairs.
Yeah, I never liked the idea of Special Characters. They just feel wrong. Its like being able to field Patton against the Russians in a WW2 game. It just doesn't make sense if you think about it. Like, what if Patton gets blown up? What is he even doing fighting Russians? Its a similar problem here. It doesn't help that Special Characters tend to have powerful abilities, so of course you are going to field them if you can.
Named characters reduced to 0 wounds are NOT killed, rather their removal from the table indicates said character either being incapacitated or forced into retreat due to non-trivial injuries. This also applies to players' homebrew characters unless decided otherwise in advance for things like narrative campaigns. ("Hey for our narrative campaign do you want to make any character deaths permanent?")
That's what the assumption is, but it does get a bit weird when they lose their last wound in melee or to a lascannon or something, or if you think about logistics Like, does their opponent not just cut off the SC's head to make sure, and wouldn't a wound from a lascannon or explosion be fatal? What if the special character's army loses the battle? How are they going to retrieve the incapacitated character?
Funnily enough, Demons, Necrons and C'tan actually make the most sense in this regard, as they are practically immortal; they can just teleport out and regenerate. Everything else gets a bit strange. Maybe there should a rule where if a named character falls in battle, you need to have a unit nearby to retrieve his body, or else your opponent gets extra VP for capturing someone important.
Jack Flask wrote: -snip-
So yeah, I don't know, but the idea that the Primarchs are "too big for 40k" just seems pretty laughable when you stop to consider all the other rediculous stuff running around gaming tables since the start of the game.
And this is why it was a mistake for GW to make Special Characters the focus of both the game and the lore, rather than opponent's permission only extras meant for narrative games. The idea that stuff like Pheonix Lords and C'tan would show up regularly on the tabletop has *not* been around "since the start of the game". Up until probably 5th edition the focus was very much on Your Dudes and you brought out special characters for narrative campaigns, or "my dad could beat up your dad" joke games, or just for a bit of variety on occasion. Some people certainly tried to bring their favourite snowflake to every game, and some players were willing to accommodate that, but it was very much not the default approach.
40K as saturday morning cartoon where everyone plays along with the story about the Big Hero Punchy Men is still a pretty recent state of affairs.
U wot m8.
I've been around since Rogue Trader, too. And, I hate to break this to you, but... that was a while ago. Like, quite a while ago. If we were to measure it in years it would be "quite a few". There are countries that existed at that point that no longer exist now. There are countries that exist now that did not back then. The entire Discworld series bar only one came out between then and now. That's 40 novels.
I loved it too, but not only have times changed, so has 40k. It literally isn't the same game. It has gone from an RPG-style skirmish to a mass battle wargame. As for being "ridiculous", that aspect has never changed. If people want to have Roboute Guilliman walking around their battlefields, then that's exactly what they can have. Imagination is a wonderful thing. Possibly why it is apparently in such small supply.
Justyn wrote: I always thought proper Primarch level rules for 40k would be something like:
We each deploy our Primarch or Primarch level being. Each turn they march directly towards each other killing any enemy model unlucky enough to find itself within 6" of said Primarch. When they reach each other they fight. For the rest of the game they fight. On each players turn they move d3 in a random direction still locked in combat. Again each Primarch killing any enemy model unlucky enough to be caught up in the Titanic struggle.
That sounds really boring, and the last thing the game needs is more lethality for the sake of "cinematic experiences"
Justyn wrote: I always thought proper Primarch level rules for 40k would be something like:
We each deploy our Primarch or Primarch level being. Each turn they march directly towards each other killing any enemy model unlucky enough to find itself within 6" of said Primarch. When they reach each other they fight. For the rest of the game they fight. On each players turn they move d3 in a random direction still locked in combat. Again each Primarch killing any enemy model unlucky enough to be caught up in the Titanic struggle.
That sounds really boring, and the last thing the game needs is more lethality for the sake of "cinematic experiences"
Yeah, this is like when people say they'd like to play games where you get 8 space marines and they have 2++ rerollable save 6 wounds boltguns fire 20 shots etc etc... "marines the way they're supposed to be in the lore!"
Like, people love playing against armies of nothing but imperial knights so much, right? Why wouldn't it be fun to have models that cannot be harmed in any meaningful way but they're tiny instead of big?
Why? Because Lt Dan should not be able to kill a Primarch simply because he charged and swings first with his hammer and Angron got unlucky with his saves. Primarch battles should be Epic. And yet they never are when i see them on the table. I'm looking at you Mortarion when you got run over by a Baneblade. Or when Magnus died to Lasgun fire that one time. Or when Gulliman tripped on a hair-squig and broke his silly neck. Ok that last one didn't happen. But you get the point. Seeing any Primarch get chumped makes them far less epic.
That certainly is the best thing about giving these guys rules.
Jack Flask wrote: -snip-
So yeah, I don't know, but the idea that the Primarchs are "too big for 40k" just seems pretty laughable when you stop to consider all the other rediculous stuff running around gaming tables since the start of the game.
And this is why it was a mistake for GW to make Special Characters the focus of both the game and the lore, rather than opponent's permission only extras meant for narrative games. The idea that stuff like Pheonix Lords and C'tan would show up regularly on the tabletop has *not* been around "since the start of the game". Up until probably 5th edition the focus was very much on Your Dudes and you brought out special characters for narrative campaigns, or "my dad could beat up your dad" joke games, or just for a bit of variety on occasion. Some people certainly tried to bring their favourite snowflake to every game, and some players were willing to accommodate that, but it was very much not the default approach.
40K as saturday morning cartoon where everyone plays along with the story about the Big Hero Punchy Men is still a pretty recent state of affairs.
Ummmm, no. This is very much a thing that will vary by locale and is not universally true. For example, several areas in the US had wide usage of Special Characters way back in 3rd, which was 20 years ago. It's not something new or recent and your local area's idea of "default approach" was and is not everyone's.
Primarchs should get that rule Morathi has in AoS where they can’t take more than a certain amount of dmg per phase. She can’t take more than 6 per phase and dudes like Morty could do with this kind of rule.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I need to know if Jain and her banshees are getting updated rules besides Jain’s one ability and the Exarch Powers. I want them to be good sah bahd.
Why? Because Lt Dan should not be able to kill a Primarch simply because he charged and swings first with his hammer and Angron got unlucky with his saves. Primarch battles should be Epic. And yet they never are when i see them on the table. I'm looking at you Mortarion when you got run over by a Baneblade. Or when Magnus died to Lasgun fire that one time. Or when Gulliman tripped on a hair-squig and broke his silly neck. Ok that last one didn't happen. But you get the point. Seeing any Primarch get chumped makes them far less epic.
That certainly is the best thing about giving these guys rules.
This. Part of the fun of 40k is Terminators getting ganked by grotz, and the fact that long odds sometimes come true. In the books protagonists and heros just rolls 6s for everything.
Jack Flask wrote: -snip-
So yeah, I don't know, but the idea that the Primarchs are "too big for 40k" just seems pretty laughable when you stop to consider all the other rediculous stuff running around gaming tables since the start of the game.
And this is why it was a mistake for GW to make Special Characters the focus of both the game and the lore, rather than opponent's permission only extras meant for narrative games. The idea that stuff like Pheonix Lords and C'tan would show up regularly on the tabletop has *not* been around "since the start of the game". Up until probably 5th edition the focus was very much on Your Dudes and you brought out special characters for narrative campaigns, or "my dad could beat up your dad" joke games, or just for a bit of variety on occasion. Some people certainly tried to bring their favourite snowflake to every game, and some players were willing to accommodate that, but it was very much not the default approach.
40K as saturday morning cartoon where everyone plays along with the story about the Big Hero Punchy Men is still a pretty recent state of affairs.
U wot m8.
I've been around since Rogue Trader, too. And, I hate to break this to you, but... that was a while ago. Like, quite a while ago. If we were to measure it in years it would be "quite a few". There are countries that existed at that point that no longer exist now. There are countries that exist now that did not back then. The entire Discworld series bar only one came out between then and now. That's 40 novels.
I loved it too, but not only have times changed, so has 40k. It literally isn't the same game. It has gone from an RPG-style skirmish to a mass battle wargame. As for being "ridiculous", that aspect has never changed. If people want to have Roboute Guilliman walking around their battlefields, then that's exactly what they can have. Imagination is a wonderful thing. Possibly why it is apparently in such small supply.
I have Chapter Approved - the first Army lists released for Rogue Trader - loads of Special Characters - it also had rules for Giant war machines etc etc etc
Yup... lots of special characters in second edition... hence why it was nicknamed herohammer!! That being said none were clearly as powerful as having a primarch!
Jack Flask wrote: I feel like the level of vitriol you're bringing is uncalled for, but I do agree with what I think you are trying to convey.
In general after reading Dakka for so long I've noticed that the vast majority of players seem really bad at using their imagination to properly contextualize their games within the setting.
Basically, players should be assuming the following about all of their 40k games:
The battle on your table is not the entire battle which would actually be occurring in the narrative. If not for the number of units present then almost certainly for the scale of the engagement area.
The battle you are playing is NOT just a normal engagement within a larger warzone. You are playing the inflection point of that conflict, the moment and location at which one army pushes the other onto the back foot. (Killteam can largely be an exception to this)
Named characters reduced to 0 wounds are NOT killed, rather their removal from the table indicates said character either being incapacitated or forced into retreat due to non-trivial injuries. This also applies to players' homebrew characters unless decided otherwise in advance for things like narrative campaigns. ("Hey for our narrative campaign do you want to make any character deaths permanent?")
If those 3 assumptions are woven into your tabletop narrative then it's really hard to find a situation which compromises your immersion.
That's of course assuming you are playing a game with any narrative basis at all. If you are playing unorganized pick-up games or building your force based on "efficiency" then you forfeit all rights to complain about anything narrative related.
I thought every player thought these three things?
Aren't they common assumptions we all hold when playing our games?
No, they aren't. There is nothing to suggest there is a wider battle going on, battles are just standard meeting engagements, and a character vaped by a lascannon is very much killed outright.
But then, the game and fluff really have nothing at all to do with each other. They're simply incompatible- the best way to enjoy the game is just treat it as a game, not a story telling device. It is extremely bad at that. A series of random charts would produce a more coherent narrative.
As usual, the answer to any question posed as 'doesn't everybody think that?' is NO.
There is no hivemind or One True Way.
Legiocustodes wrote: Yup... lots of special characters in second edition... hence why it was nicknamed herohammer!! That being said none were clearly as powerful as having a primarch!
The 2nd ed Codex Chaos also allowed you to build characters that were significantly more powerful than Abaddon or Khârn. A Chaos Lord with all 4 marks, terminator armour, praise of Khorne, a daemon weapon, a power fist and a displacer field was nigh unkillable and packed a nasty punch. Yeah, a 3++ followed by a re-rollable 2+ on 2D6 save. Good times!
Jack Flask wrote: -snip-
So yeah, I don't know, but the idea that the Primarchs are "too big for 40k" just seems pretty laughable when you stop to consider all the other rediculous stuff running around gaming tables since the start of the game.
And this is why it was a mistake for GW to make Special Characters the focus of both the game and the lore, rather than opponent's permission only extras meant for narrative games.
The idea that stuff like Pheonix Lords and C'tan would show up regularly on the tabletop has *not* been around "since the start of the game". Up until probably 5th edition the focus was very much on Your Dudes and you brought out special characters for narrative campaigns,
or "my dad could beat up your dad" joke games, or just for a bit of variety on occasion.
Some people certainly tried to bring their favourite snowflake to every game, and some players were willing to accommodate that, but it was very much not the default approach.
40K as saturday morning cartoon where everyone plays along with the story about the Big Hero Punchy Men is still a pretty recent state of affairs.
Yeah, I never liked the idea of Special Characters. They just feel wrong.
Its like being able to field Patton against the Russians in a WW2 game. It just doesn't make sense if you think about it. Like, what if Patton gets blown up? What is he even doing fighting Russians? Its a similar problem here.
It doesn't help that Special Characters tend to have powerful abilities, so of course you are going to field them if you can.
Ok, but here's my counterpoint, at what point does a character become too important to be field-able? Let's use Space Marines as an example:
Each chapter has 10 companies of 100 marines led by 1 Captain and 2 Lieutenants, with all captains reporting to a single Chapter Master.
Of those 10 companies only 4 are standard operating forces, an additional 4 are reserve forces, 1 consists entirely of veterans, and the final company is covert operations.
That means that there are only a total of 31 officers with command higher than squad level, of which only 12 (4 battle companies) are likely to be deployed to non-significant battlefields.
I'm not including Chaplains, Librarians, or Techmarines because while they can rules-wise be utilized to fill HQ requirements, by lore they are specialists outside the standard chain of command.
What this means is that if you want to field a captain of any of the first founding chapters they are literally all named characters since GW has full chapter command charts in the codex. Moreover what really is the difference in narrative significance if Chapter Master Felix Walsh of the Ursine Avengers Chapter shows up instead of Marneus Calgar? I literally just made Walsh and the Ursine Avengers up, "they are my dudes", does his lack of Black Library novel suddenly make Walsh's position less important or time consuming?
If I become a Black Library writer and publish a novel about Walsh and GW gives him rules in White Dwarf does that mean I need to stop running him because he's now too significant?
I agree with you about it being unfortunate that named characters are the only way to access many incredibly strong thematic leader abilities. Part of the difficulty though is that the only real alternative would be to make "build-a-Chapter tactic" style charts for all generic leaders and relics, which (while I'm in favor of it) is just another mess of rules to stack on top of a game which already exceeds many other tabletop games multiple times over in sheer number of options.
Named characters reduced to 0 wounds are NOT killed, rather their removal from the table indicates said character either being incapacitated or forced into retreat due to non-trivial injuries. This also applies to players' homebrew characters unless decided otherwise in advance for things like narrative campaigns. ("Hey for our narrative campaign do you want to make any character deaths permanent?")
That's what the assumption is, but it does get a bit weird when they lose their last wound in melee or to a lascannon or something, or if you think about logistics
Like, does their opponent not just cut off the SC's head to make sure, and wouldn't a wound from a lascannon or explosion be fatal? What if the special character's army loses the battle? How are they going to retrieve the incapacitated character?
Funnily enough, Demons, Necrons and C'tan actually make the most sense in this regard, as they are practically immortal; they can just teleport out and regenerate. Everything else gets a bit strange.
Maybe there should a rule where if a named character falls in battle, you need to have a unit nearby to retrieve his body, or else your opponent gets extra VP for capturing someone important.
Taking a wound (even the last wound) doesn't indicate a fatal blow though. Losing your last wound to a power sword could be anything from your character getting nicked on the arm and realizing "wow, I don't really think I got enough sleep to be duelling Lucius right now..." to a lascannon taking a chunk out of their thigh and having them limp away to go get patched up.
As for retrieval, just assume they leave before it gets that dicey.
And if you want to argue "But what if my whole army dies turn one, then I charge Calgar to the middle of the map where he is surrounded and beaten to death but cultists with socks full of soap?" then I have only one response:
Aren't they common assumptions we all hold when playing our games?
I'd like to think so but given how often I see people complain about why they see X character and how unrealistic it is, I'm starting to think that our line of thinking is not so common.
Back in 3rd and 4th every special character in a codex had a rule that stated something to the effect of requiring opponent's permission to use as was most Chapter Approved items and Forgeworld. This lead to a widespread perception that these units were unbalanced and not properly playtested. In some cases this was true (looking at the dumpster fire that was Vehicle Design Rules) and in other cases was an unfair stigma (almost all Imperial Armour rules of that era.)
While some posters here are pointing out a contrarian view of Special Characters in 3rd and 4th edition, that was the unusual exception, not the norm. They were banned from the Grand Tournaments (the official GW tournies before NOVA and Adepticon) and as such were not allowed in the regional and local tournament circuits whose rules usually reflected the GTs.
witchdoctor wrote: Back in 3rd and 4th every special character in a codex had a rule that stated something to the effect of requiring opponent's permission to use as was most Chapter Approved items and Forgeworld. This lead to a widespread perception that these units were unbalanced and not properly playtested. In some cases this was true (looking at the dumpster fire that was Vehicle Design Rules) and in other cases was an unfair stigma (almost all Imperial Armour rules of that era.)
While some posters here are pointing out a contrarian view of Special Characters in 3rd and 4th edition, that was the unusual exception, not the norm. They were banned from the Grand Tournaments (the official GW tournies before NOVA and Adepticon) and as such were not allowed in the regional and local tournament circuits whose rules usually reflected the GTs.
Outright lies don't help. I have several of those coedexes from that era and there was no such rule associated with the special characters from the Dark Eldar and Tyranids codexes at least (the ones I've just checked) though several of them did specify a minimum (and in the case of Old One Eye, maximum) points limit for the game before you could use them (Vect couldn't be used in games of less than 2K for example, the Red Terror 1500pts).
I can't speak for the tournament scene of the time as I wasn't playing then, but a friend of mine who was playing in 2nd ed regularly made use of special characters, Jain Zar in particular, as did many of his opponents.
witchdoctor wrote: Back in 3rd and 4th every special character in a codex had a rule that stated something to the effect of requiring opponent's permission to use as was most Chapter Approved items and Forgeworld. This lead to a widespread perception that these units were unbalanced and not properly playtested. In some cases this was true (looking at the dumpster fire that was Vehicle Design Rules) and in other cases was an unfair stigma (almost all Imperial Armour rules of that era.)
While some posters here are pointing out a contrarian view of Special Characters in 3rd and 4th edition, that was the unusual exception, not the norm. They were banned from the Grand Tournaments (the official GW tournies before NOVA and Adepticon) and as such were not allowed in the regional and local tournament circuits whose rules usually reflected the GTs.
Outright lies don't help. I have several of those coedexes from that era and there was no such rule associated with the special characters from the Dark Eldar and Tyranids codexes at least (the ones I've just checked) though several of them did specify a minimum (and in the case of Old One Eye, maximum) points limit for the game before you could use them (Vect couldn't be used in games of less than 2K for example, the Red Terror 1500pts).
I can't speak for the tournament scene of the time as I wasn't playing then, but a friend of mine who was playing in 2nd ed regularly made use of special characters, Jain Zar in particular, as did many of his opponents.
I dont have my old books but it's not a lie, I think its mentioned in the 3rd ed core book?
Legiocustodes wrote: Yup... lots of special characters in second edition... hence why it was nicknamed herohammer!! That being said none were clearly as powerful as having a primarch!
You never faced Logan with a displacer field then LMAO.
witchdoctor wrote: Back in 3rd and 4th every special character in a codex had a rule that stated something to the effect of requiring opponent's permission to use as was most Chapter Approved items and Forgeworld. This lead to a widespread perception that these units were unbalanced and not properly playtested. In some cases this was true (looking at the dumpster fire that was Vehicle Design Rules) and in other cases was an unfair stigma (almost all Imperial Armour rules of that era.)
While some posters here are pointing out a contrarian view of Special Characters in 3rd and 4th edition, that was the unusual exception, not the norm. They were banned from the Grand Tournaments (the official GW tournies before NOVA and Adepticon) and as such were not allowed in the regional and local tournament circuits whose rules usually reflected the GTs.
Outright lies don't help. I have several of those coedexes from that era and there was no such rule associated with the special characters from the Dark Eldar and Tyranids codexes at least (the ones I've just checked) though several of them did specify a minimum (and in the case of Old One Eye, maximum) points limit for the game before you could use them (Vect couldn't be used in games of less than 2K for example, the Red Terror 1500pts).
I can't speak for the tournament scene of the time as I wasn't playing then, but a friend of mine who was playing in 2nd ed regularly made use of special characters, Jain Zar in particular, as did many of his opponents.
I dont have my old books but it's not a lie, I think its mentioned in the 3rd ed core book?
I remember it being in specific codexes and then not in some and then requiring limited points in others. You know, totally inconsistant which is the MO of GeeDubs.
Justyn wrote: I always thought proper Primarch level rules for 40k would be something like:
We each deploy our Primarch or Primarch level being. Each turn they march directly towards each other killing any enemy model unlucky enough to find itself within 6" of said Primarch. When they reach each other they fight. For the rest of the game they fight. On each players turn they move d3 in a random direction still locked in combat. Again each Primarch killing any enemy model unlucky enough to be caught up in the Titanic struggle.
Why? Because Lt Dan should not be able to kill a Primarch simply because he charged and swings first with his hammer and Angron got unlucky with his saves. Primarch battles should be Epic. And yet they never are when i see them on the table. I'm looking at you Mortarion when you got run over by a Baneblade. Or when Magnus died to Lasgun fire that one time. Or when Gulliman tripped on a hair-squig and broke his silly neck. Ok that last one didn't happen. But you get the point. Seeing any Primarch get chumped makes them far less epic.
That was pretty much The Avatar of Khaine vs The Bloodthirster in 2nd edition, they could duel practically the entire game and sometimes not find a victor and when one did come out on top the other would generally be on its last legs. They are beings that have been in the game for a long time and who should effectively be just about Primarch level. The fact that nowadays we have background where Chapter Masters like Calgar or Dante are defeating them in single combat and come out practically unscathed shows what a sorry state the more recent background material has become.
Would be like a Primarch being taken down by some random legion Praetor.
witchdoctor wrote: Back in 3rd and 4th every special character in a codex had a rule that stated something to the effect of requiring opponent's permission to use as was most Chapter Approved items and Forgeworld. This lead to a widespread perception that these units were unbalanced and not properly playtested. In some cases this was true (looking at the dumpster fire that was Vehicle Design Rules) and in other cases was an unfair stigma (almost all Imperial Armour rules of that era.)
While some posters here are pointing out a contrarian view of Special Characters in 3rd and 4th edition, that was the unusual exception, not the norm. They were banned from the Grand Tournaments (the official GW tournies before NOVA and Adepticon) and as such were not allowed in the regional and local tournament circuits whose rules usually reflected the GTs.
Outright lies don't help. I have several of those coedexes from that era and there was no such rule associated with the special characters from the Dark Eldar and Tyranids codexes at least (the ones I've just checked) though several of them did specify a minimum (and in the case of Old One Eye, maximum) points limit for the game before you could use them (Vect couldn't be used in games of less than 2K for example, the Red Terror 1500pts).
I can't speak for the tournament scene of the time as I wasn't playing then, but a friend of mine who was playing in 2nd ed regularly made use of special characters, Jain Zar in particular, as did many of his opponents.
It's not a lie. The rule was in the entry of each character.
Yodhrin wrote: And this is why it was a mistake for GW to make Special Characters the focus of both the game and the lore, rather than opponent's permission only extras meant for narrative games. The idea that stuff like Pheonix Lords and C'tan would show up regularly on the tabletop has *not* been around "since the start of the game". Up until probably 5th edition the focus was very much on Your Dudes and you brought out special characters for narrative campaigns, or "my dad could beat up your dad" joke games, or just for a bit of variety on occasion. Some people certainly tried to bring their favourite snowflake to every game, and some players were willing to accommodate that, but it was very much not the default approach.
40K as saturday morning cartoon where everyone plays along with the story about the Big Hero Punchy Men is still a pretty recent state of affairs.
Words of wisdom.
40k should be about YOUR dudes from YOUR chapter/craftworld/regiment. Not about Famous McPresentInEveryBook and his sworn enemy Bafous McPresentInEveryOtherBook fighting it out all the time with their super-friends around.
“Story advancement” should be about the story of some specific Black Library story, or of YOUR dudes in a campaign, not about Famous McPresentInEveryBattle changing the face of the setting by creating the Marinus Supram or whatever.
Yodhrin wrote: And this is why it was a mistake for GW to make Special Characters the focus of both the game and the lore, rather than opponent's permission only extras meant for narrative games. The idea that stuff like Pheonix Lords and C'tan would show up regularly on the tabletop has *not* been around "since the start of the game". Up until probably 5th edition the focus was very much on Your Dudes and you brought out special characters for narrative campaigns, or "my dad could beat up your dad" joke games, or just for a bit of variety on occasion. Some people certainly tried to bring their favourite snowflake to every game, and some players were willing to accommodate that, but it was very much not the default approach.
40K as saturday morning cartoon where everyone plays along with the story about the Big Hero Punchy Men is still a pretty recent state of affairs.
Words of wisdom.
40k should be about YOUR dudes from YOUR chapter/craftworld/regiment. Not about Famous McPresentInEveryBook and his sworn enemy Bafous McPresentInEveryOtherBook fighting it out all the time with their super-friends around.
“Story advancement” should be about the story of some specific Black Library story, or of YOUR dudes in a campaign, not about Famous McPresentInEveryBattle changing the face of the setting by creating the Marinus Supram or whatever.
Not really. It’s should be about whatever you want it to be about. If you don’t have a draw to special characters, fine. If you do, fine.
ImAGeek wrote: Not really. It’s should be about whatever you want it to be about.
I want it to be about MY dudes (and ofc, MY OPPONENT's dude).
ImAGeek wrote: If you don’t have a draw to special characters, fine. If you do, fine.
I don't like how the codex encourages you to take them while at the same time limiting customization for normal characters, and also all the terrible stuff about them being put in every codex and campaign book and leading to entire setting evolution. But as they were in 3rd/4th ed, extra “If both opponent agree” piece, they were fine!
Justyn wrote: I always thought proper Primarch level rules for 40k would be something like:
We each deploy our Primarch or Primarch level being. Each turn they march directly towards each other killing any enemy model unlucky enough to find itself within 6" of said Primarch. When they reach each other they fight. For the rest of the game they fight. On each players turn they move d3 in a random direction still locked in combat. Again each Primarch killing any enemy model unlucky enough to be caught up in the Titanic struggle.
Why? Because Lt Dan should not be able to kill a Primarch simply because he charged and swings first with his hammer and Angron got unlucky with his saves. Primarch battles should be Epic. And yet they never are when i see them on the table. I'm looking at you Mortarion when you got run over by a Baneblade. Or when Magnus died to Lasgun fire that one time. Or when Gulliman tripped on a hair-squig and broke his silly neck. Ok that last one didn't happen. But you get the point. Seeing any Primarch get chumped makes them far less epic.
That was pretty much The Avatar of Khaine vs The Bloodthirster in 2nd edition, they could duel practically the entire game and sometimes not find a victor and when one did come out on top the other would generally be on its last legs. They are beings that have been in the game for a long time and who should effectively be just about Primarch level. The fact that nowadays we have background where Chapter Masters like Calgar or Dante are defeating them in single combat and come out practically unscathed shows what a sorry state the more recent background material has become.
Would be like a Primarch being taken down by some random legion Praetor.
You can thank Ward's puerile writing style for that. It pretty much was the beginning of marines jumping the shark to show how awesome they are.
Well, ok, it was always a little like that, but it was particularly egregious when Ward did it.
Justyn wrote: I always thought proper Primarch level rules for 40k would be something like:
We each deploy our Primarch or Primarch level being. Each turn they march directly towards each other killing any enemy model unlucky enough to find itself within 6" of said Primarch. When they reach each other they fight. For the rest of the game they fight. On each players turn they move d3 in a random direction still locked in combat. Again each Primarch killing any enemy model unlucky enough to be caught up in the Titanic struggle.
Why? Because Lt Dan should not be able to kill a Primarch simply because he charged and swings first with his hammer and Angron got unlucky with his saves. Primarch battles should be Epic. And yet they never are when i see them on the table. I'm looking at you Mortarion when you got run over by a Baneblade. Or when Magnus died to Lasgun fire that one time. Or when Gulliman tripped on a hair-squig and broke his silly neck. Ok that last one didn't happen. But you get the point. Seeing any Primarch get chumped makes them far less epic.
That was pretty much The Avatar of Khaine vs The Bloodthirster in 2nd edition, they could duel practically the entire game and sometimes not find a victor and when one did come out on top the other would generally be on its last legs. They are beings that have been in the game for a long time and who should effectively be just about Primarch level. The fact that nowadays we have background where Chapter Masters like Calgar or Dante are defeating them in single combat and come out practically unscathed shows what a sorry state the more recent background material has become.
Would be like a Primarch being taken down by some random legion Praetor.
You can thank Ward's puerile writing style for that. It pretty much was the beginning of marines jumping the shark to show how awesome they are.
Well, ok, it was always a little like that, but it was particularly egregious when Ward did it.
Have you read the 2nd edition Ultramarines codex? Because all the absurdity about primarchs pretty much started right there with it’s account of Gulliman.
It wasn’t irrecoverable until the heresy novels started coming out and treating the old legends of the heresy era as literal historical fact, but still.
Justyn wrote: I always thought proper Primarch level rules for 40k would be something like:
We each deploy our Primarch or Primarch level being. Each turn they march directly towards each other killing any enemy model unlucky enough to find itself within 6" of said Primarch. When they reach each other they fight. For the rest of the game they fight. On each players turn they move d3 in a random direction still locked in combat. Again each Primarch killing any enemy model unlucky enough to be caught up in the Titanic struggle.
Why? Because Lt Dan should not be able to kill a Primarch simply because he charged and swings first with his hammer and Angron got unlucky with his saves. Primarch battles should be Epic. And yet they never are when i see them on the table. I'm looking at you Mortarion when you got run over by a Baneblade. Or when Magnus died to Lasgun fire that one time. Or when Gulliman tripped on a hair-squig and broke his silly neck. Ok that last one didn't happen. But you get the point. Seeing any Primarch get chumped makes them far less epic.
That was pretty much The Avatar of Khaine vs The Bloodthirster in 2nd edition, they could duel practically the entire game and sometimes not find a victor and when one did come out on top the other would generally be on its last legs. They are beings that have been in the game for a long time and who should effectively be just about Primarch level. The fact that nowadays we have background where Chapter Masters like Calgar or Dante are defeating them in single combat and come out practically unscathed shows what a sorry state the more recent background material has become.
Would be like a Primarch being taken down by some random legion Praetor.
You can thank Ward's puerile writing style for that. It pretty much was the beginning of marines jumping the shark to show how awesome they are.
Well, ok, it was always a little like that, but it was particularly egregious when Ward did it.
Have you read the 2nd edition Ultramarines codex? Because all the absurdity about primarchs pretty much started right there with it’s account of Gulliman.
It wasn’t irrecoverable until the heresy novels started coming out and treating the old legends of the heresy era as literal historical fact, but still.
That's a primarch though. I can handle those being absurd. What I can't handle are Chapter masters pummeling literal gods and Grand Masters giving Demon Primarchs heart tatoos. That's just...dumb.
Have you read the 2nd edition Ultramarines codex? Because all the absurdity about primarchs pretty much started right there with it’s account of Gulliman.
It wasn’t irrecoverable until the heresy novels started coming out and treating the old legends of the heresy era as literal historical fact, but still.
And the latter was the real problem. Treating distorted legends about events that supposedly happened ten thousand years ago as literal truth. Bloody idiotic.
Have you read the 2nd edition Ultramarines codex? Because all the absurdity about primarchs pretty much started right there with it’s account of Gulliman.
It wasn’t irrecoverable until the heresy novels started coming out and treating the old legends of the heresy era as literal historical fact, but still.
And the latter was the real problem. Treating distorted legends about events that supposedly happened ten thousand years ago as literal truth. Bloody idiotic.
I don't know what you mean. Being able to survive being trampled by a Titan is completely reasonable.
ImAGeek wrote: Not really. It’s should be about whatever you want it to be about.
I want it to be about MY dudes (and ofc, MY OPPONENT's dude).
ImAGeek wrote: If you don’t have a draw to special characters, fine. If you do, fine.
I don't like how the codex encourages you to take them while at the same time limiting customization for normal characters, and also all the terrible stuff about them being put in every codex and campaign book and leading to entire setting evolution. But as they were in 3rd/4th ed, extra “If both opponent agree” piece, they were fine!
No, not even close. Special characters were so terribly priced you had no choice to let your opponent use them. Or are you saying old school Coteaz and Stern were acceptable at 185-205 points?
Justyn wrote: I always thought proper Primarch level rules for 40k would be something like:
We each deploy our Primarch or Primarch level being. Each turn they march directly towards each other killing any enemy model unlucky enough to find itself within 6" of said Primarch. When they reach each other they fight. For the rest of the game they fight. On each players turn they move d3 in a random direction still locked in combat. Again each Primarch killing any enemy model unlucky enough to be caught up in the Titanic struggle.
Why? Because Lt Dan should not be able to kill a Primarch simply because he charged and swings first with his hammer and Angron got unlucky with his saves. Primarch battles should be Epic. And yet they never are when i see them on the table. I'm looking at you Mortarion when you got run over by a Baneblade. Or when Magnus died to Lasgun fire that one time. Or when Gulliman tripped on a hair-squig and broke his silly neck. Ok that last one didn't happen. But you get the point. Seeing any Primarch get chumped makes them far less epic.
That was pretty much The Avatar of Khaine vs The Bloodthirster in 2nd edition, they could duel practically the entire game and sometimes not find a victor and when one did come out on top the other would generally be on its last legs. They are beings that have been in the game for a long time and who should effectively be just about Primarch level. The fact that nowadays we have background where Chapter Masters like Calgar or Dante are defeating them in single combat and come out practically unscathed shows what a sorry state the more recent background material has become.
Would be like a Primarch being taken down by some random legion Praetor.
You can thank Ward's puerile writing style for that. It pretty much was the beginning of marines jumping the shark to show how awesome they are.
Well, ok, it was always a little like that, but it was particularly egregious when Ward did it.
Have you read the 2nd edition Ultramarines codex? Because all the absurdity about primarchs pretty much started right there with it’s account of Gulliman.
It wasn’t irrecoverable until the heresy novels started coming out and treating the old legends of the heresy era as literal historical fact, but still.
That's a primarch though. I can handle those being absurd. What I can't handle are Chapter masters pummeling literal gods and Grand Masters giving Demon Primarchs heart tatoos. That's just...dumb.
I'm guessing you didn't actually read the story and are relying on good ol' 1d4chan inaccuracies.
Yodhrin wrote: And this is why it was a mistake for GW to make Special Characters the focus of both the game and the lore, rather than opponent's permission only extras meant for narrative games. The idea that stuff like Pheonix Lords and C'tan would show up regularly on the tabletop has *not* been around "since the start of the game". Up until probably 5th edition the focus was very much on Your Dudes and you brought out special characters for narrative campaigns, or "my dad could beat up your dad" joke games, or just for a bit of variety on occasion. Some people certainly tried to bring their favourite snowflake to every game, and some players were willing to accommodate that, but it was very much not the default approach.
40K as saturday morning cartoon where everyone plays along with the story about the Big Hero Punchy Men is still a pretty recent state of affairs.
Words of wisdom.
40k should be about YOUR dudes from YOUR chapter/craftworld/regiment. Not about Famous McPresentInEveryBook and his sworn enemy Bafous McPresentInEveryOtherBook fighting it out all the time with their super-friends around.
“Story advancement” should be about the story of some specific Black Library story, or of YOUR dudes in a campaign, not about Famous McPresentInEveryBattle changing the face of the setting by creating the Marinus Supram or whatever.
Couldn't agree more. 40k is becoing more and more character centric, and I'm losing a lot of interest in it because of that
I'm guessing you didn't actually read the story and are relying on good ol' 1d4chan inaccuracies.
Except I did though? I'm pretty sure Marneus Calgar did beat an Avatar of Khaine in single combat, and Draigo wrote on Mortarion's heart. Sure, the Demon Primarch was wounded from fighting a bunch of other Grey Knights, but that doesn't make the heart tattoo any less stupid.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: No, not even close. Special characters were so terribly priced you had no choice to let your opponent use them.
The rules explicitly said you had to ask opponent's permission. Even if it was allowed every time, it still marked special characters as an extra, rather than an integral component of the core game, as they are now. [edit]Wait, you were not saying that they were not extra, you were saying that they were not fine back then because they were too expensive! Well, models intended for narrative play being unbalanced is not that big of a deal because they aren't intended for competitive play. Rather I get to play a cool custom jump pack canoness than being stuck playing Celestine almost every game because it's the only viable HQ option, and literally the only HQ jump pack option…
witchdoctor wrote: Back in 3rd and 4th every special character in a codex had a rule that stated something to the effect of requiring opponent's permission to use as was most Chapter Approved items and Forgeworld. This lead to a widespread perception that these units were unbalanced and not properly playtested. In some cases this was true (looking at the dumpster fire that was Vehicle Design Rules) and in other cases was an unfair stigma (almost all Imperial Armour rules of that era.)
While some posters here are pointing out a contrarian view of Special Characters in 3rd and 4th edition, that was the unusual exception, not the norm. They were banned from the Grand Tournaments (the official GW tournies before NOVA and Adepticon) and as such were not allowed in the regional and local tournament circuits whose rules usually reflected the GTs.
Outright lies don't help. I have several of those coedexes from that era and there was no such rule associated with the special characters from the Dark Eldar and Tyranids codexes at least (the ones I've just checked) though several of them did specify a minimum (and in the case of Old One Eye, maximum) points limit for the game before you could use them (Vect couldn't be used in games of less than 2K for example, the Red Terror 1500pts).
I can't speak for the tournament scene of the time as I wasn't playing then, but a friend of mine who was playing in 2nd ed regularly made use of special characters, Jain Zar in particular, as did many of his opponents.
It's not a lie. The rule was in the entry of each character.
Thats very weird, the version I'm looking at doesn't include that line for Drazhar at all.
What do people think is going to be included in the first book?
Why are we talking about special characters and their validity in the game? They ain't going anywhere guys. Let's move on.
The news about the first release has been so slow. They're stretching this thing out for far too long. I'm hoping there's a lot more substance to the release, and it's more like a Codex 2.0 to match the lead time.
Imateria wrote: Thats very weird, the version I'm looking at doesn't include that line for Drazhar at all.
I'm pretty sure there was a "revised" edition (in 2003, I think), so that line might have been removed from the one you have, if it is that one.
I do recall that when I started playing in about 2007, there were still discussion about the whole "special character permission" thing, some places were still apt to not allow them at all. Of course, it didn't matter to me, because I played Necrons...
Have you read the 2nd edition Ultramarines codex? Because all the absurdity about primarchs pretty much started right there with it’s account of Gulliman.
It wasn’t irrecoverable until the heresy novels started coming out and treating the old legends of the heresy era as literal historical fact, but still.
And the latter was the real problem. Treating distorted legends about events that supposedly happened ten thousand years ago as literal truth. Bloody idiotic.
I don't know what you mean. Being able to survive being trampled by a Titan is completely reasonable.
To be fair there is an old Space Wolf story I remember about a Wolf Guard Terminator who was stood on by a titan and survived.
Think he was essentially pressed into the dirt under his feet when the Titan stepped on him. Given the sturdiness of Terminator armour and the inbuilt shielding mechanisms I didn't find it too unbelievable however and the Wolf Guard in question was in no fit state to continue the fight afterwards but did nonetheless survive.
What do people think is going to be included in the first book?
Why are we talking about special characters and their validity in the game? They ain't going anywhere guys. Let's move on.
The news about the first release has been so slow. They're stretching this thing out for far too long. I'm hoping there's a lot more substance to the release, and it's more like a Codex 2.0 to match the lead time.
Yea I'm with you on all accounts - I hope this is a V2 dex for craftworld and dark eldar. Furthermore I hope it's what other factions can expect.
witchdoctor wrote: Back in 3rd and 4th every special character in a codex had a rule that stated something to the effect of requiring opponent's permission to use as was most Chapter Approved items and Forgeworld. This lead to a widespread perception that these units were unbalanced and not properly playtested. In some cases this was true (looking at the dumpster fire that was Vehicle Design Rules) and in other cases was an unfair stigma (almost all Imperial Armour rules of that era.)
While some posters here are pointing out a contrarian view of Special Characters in 3rd and 4th edition, that was the unusual exception, not the norm. They were banned from the Grand Tournaments (the official GW tournies before NOVA and Adepticon) and as such were not allowed in the regional and local tournament circuits whose rules usually reflected the GTs.
Outright lies don't help. I have several of those coedexes from that era and there was no such rule associated with the special characters from the Dark Eldar and Tyranids codexes at least (the ones I've just checked) though several of them did specify a minimum (and in the case of Old One Eye, maximum) points limit for the game before you could use them (Vect couldn't be used in games of less than 2K for example, the Red Terror 1500pts).
I can't speak for the tournament scene of the time as I wasn't playing then, but a friend of mine who was playing in 2nd ed regularly made use of special characters, Jain Zar in particular, as did many of his opponents.
It's not a lie. The rule was in the entry of each character.
Thats very weird, the version I'm looking at doesn't include that line for Drazhar at all.
There used to be rules for "opponent's permission only" for all special characters. However, Tyranids broke this trend when their codex came out and Old One Eye and The Red Terror no longer needed permission. This was quickly followed by Necrons and Tau. Then the revised Dark Eldar codex and revised Dark Angels codex did the same thing. From that point on they just removed that as a part of the rules.
witchdoctor wrote: Back in 3rd and 4th every special character in a codex had a rule that stated something to the effect of requiring opponent's permission to use as was most Chapter Approved items and Forgeworld. This lead to a widespread perception that these units were unbalanced and not properly playtested. In some cases this was true (looking at the dumpster fire that was Vehicle Design Rules) and in other cases was an unfair stigma (almost all Imperial Armour rules of that era.)
While some posters here are pointing out a contrarian view of Special Characters in 3rd and 4th edition, that was the unusual exception, not the norm. They were banned from the Grand Tournaments (the official GW tournies before NOVA and Adepticon) and as such were not allowed in the regional and local tournament circuits whose rules usually reflected the GTs.
Outright lies don't help. I have several of those coedexes from that era and there was no such rule associated with the special characters from the Dark Eldar and Tyranids codexes at least (the ones I've just checked) though several of them did specify a minimum (and in the case of Old One Eye, maximum) points limit for the game before you could use them (Vect couldn't be used in games of less than 2K for example, the Red Terror 1500pts).
I can't speak for the tournament scene of the time as I wasn't playing then, but a friend of mine who was playing in 2nd ed regularly made use of special characters, Jain Zar in particular, as did many of his opponents.
It's not a lie. The rule was in the entry of each character.
Thats very weird, the version I'm looking at doesn't include that line for Drazhar at all.
Yours might be the 4th edition update that was reprinted to include the vehicle upgrades they never put in the original book.
Can we please stick a little closer to the topic of News and Rmours for Psychic Awakening? As opposed to rules from previous editions.
There's not much in terms of news or rumours though. We'll get something else small on Monday, talk it to exhaustion by Wednesday and then fill the time until the next leak with OT conversation. This is the result of GW's excessively slow schedule.
Can we please stick a little closer to the topic of News and Rmours for Psychic Awakening? As opposed to rules from previous editions.
There's not much in terms of news or rumours though. We'll get something else small on Monday, talk it to exhaustion by Wednesday and then fill the time until the next leak with OT conversation. This is the result of GW's excessively slow schedule.
Feel free to speculate on things we haven't seen yet. Or your interpretation of things we have seen.
We don't need 15 pages of OT discussion around rules for special characters from 4 editions ago.
The reason you've gone off topic is because someone is hoping that maybe we'll see a Vect model with this release. Something I believe to be very unlikely but it would be cool AF if it were proven true.
What do people think is going to be included in the first book?
Why are we talking about special characters and their validity in the game? They ain't going anywhere guys. Let's move on.
The news about the first release has been so slow. They're stretching this thing out for far too long. I'm hoping there's a lot more substance to the release, and it's more like a Codex 2.0 to match the lead time.
Yeah I hope so but I get the feeling that this is pretty much it- 2 kits and 2 special characters, at leats for now as the focus has been very tight to the banshees and Incubi. Maybe they are teeing up for a larger codex related release early next year though? Did the revised chaos codex come with Vigilus or a bit after? I can't remember?
What do people think is going to be included in the first book?
Why are we talking about special characters and their validity in the game? They ain't going anywhere guys. Let's move on.
The news about the first release has been so slow. They're stretching this thing out for far too long. I'm hoping there's a lot more substance to the release, and it's more like a Codex 2.0 to match the lead time.
Yeah I hope so but I get the feeling that this is pretty much it- 2 kits and 2 special characters, at leats for now as the focus has been very tight to the banshees and Incubi. Maybe they are teeing up for a larger codex related release early next year though? Did the revised chaos codex come with Vigilus or a bit after? I can't remember?
Good point with the csm revised codex - it came out a bit after Vigilus I think.
That said I suspect Eldar players are hoping for a little more substance than what CSM received.
What do people think is going to be included in the first book?
Why are we talking about special characters and their validity in the game? They ain't going anywhere guys. Let's move on.
The news about the first release has been so slow. They're stretching this thing out for far too long. I'm hoping there's a lot more substance to the release, and it's more like a Codex 2.0 to match the lead time.
Yeah I hope so but I get the feeling that this is pretty much it- 2 kits and 2 special characters, at leats for now as the focus has been very tight to the banshees and Incubi. Maybe they are teeing up for a larger codex related release early next year though? Did the revised chaos codex come with Vigilus or a bit after? I can't remember?
This is something that's confusing me. Four updated datasheets don't feel like enough for a whole new book, but that seems to be all that they're teasing for Phoenix Rising. Then again, the reveals are also getting dragged out, so maybe we'll see more rules-based stuff after Drazhar's new model is unveiled.
We know it's going to come with new/updated rules (those can be upgraded traits or psy disciplines) explaining part of the campaign and resolving some parts of lore.
Imho i would expect something akin to the last vigilus book as best.
What do people think is going to be included in the first book?
Why are we talking about special characters and their validity in the game? They ain't going anywhere guys. Let's move on.
The news about the first release has been so slow. They're stretching this thing out for far too long. I'm hoping there's a lot more substance to the release, and it's more like a Codex 2.0 to match the lead time.
Yeah I hope so but I get the feeling that this is pretty much it- 2 kits and 2 special characters, at leats for now as the focus has been very tight to the banshees and Incubi. Maybe they are teeing up for a larger codex related release early next year though? Did the revised chaos codex come with Vigilus or a bit after? I can't remember?
This is something that's confusing me. Four updated datasheets don't feel like enough for a whole new book, but that seems to be all that they're teasing for Phoenix Rising. Then again, the reveals are also getting dragged out, so maybe we'll see more rules-based stuff after Drazhar's new model is unveiled.
Could be more data sheets for existing models- they've only really teased the model side of things. 2 kits and 2 characters fits in as something GW can do between big releases like the Bone Osiarchs and SoB. It would work for other factions who don't need big model updates like Nids. I'm hoping if that is it for the campaign the Eldar range gets a fuller release later/maybe with an updated codex. Seems like the way they release models is changing so we can't really tell- there seems to be smaller releases or larger releases broken up into smaller waves.
Maybe this is GW's way of gradually updating the Eldar range without having to devote space to updates during their next Codex release (leaving that space for new stuff in order to drive sales).
So maybe it starts off with Banshees vs. Incubi, especially since those two groups were most involved with the Ynnari faction when the Ynnari first came on the scene. Maybe Drazhar gets revealed as Arhra, then maybe after that they dribble Karandras and the Scorpions in, justifying it as Karandras getting involved in order to fight against his former master. And so on...
Iracundus wrote: Maybe this is GW's way of gradually updating the Eldar range without having to devote space to updates during their next Codex release (leaving that space for new stuff in order to drive sales).
So maybe it starts off with Banshees vs. Incubi, especially since those two groups were most involved with the Ynnari faction when the Ynnari first came on the scene. Maybe Drazhar gets revealed as Arhra, then maybe after that they dribble Karandras and the Scorpions in, justifying it as Karandras getting involved in order to fight against his former master. And so on...
It's also likely GW testing out new release patterns. In the past they pretty much only updated things with a big codex launch; now they are experimenting with drip fed models instead. Which isn't a bad idea. Big drops of lots of models cost a lot to buy into and increase the chance of someone burning out before they've finished. Instead smaller updates spread out not only increases the chance of morep eople being able to pick up each sculpt as they come out, but also increases the amount of long term attention an army gets. Instead of a 1 month blast of marketing its now capable of being spread out over 6 and with the same amount of investment!
Iracundus wrote: Maybe this is GW's way of gradually updating the Eldar range without having to devote space to updates during their next Codex release (leaving that space for new stuff in order to drive sales).
So maybe it starts off with Banshees vs. Incubi, especially since those two groups were most involved with the Ynnari faction when the Ynnari first came on the scene. Maybe Drazhar gets revealed as Arhra, then maybe after that they dribble Karandras and the Scorpions in, justifying it as Karandras getting involved in order to fight against his former master. And so on...
It's also likely GW testing out new release patterns. In the past they pretty much only updated things with a big codex launch; now they are experimenting with drip fed models instead. Which isn't a bad idea. Big drops of lots of models cost a lot to buy into and increase the chance of someone burning out before they've finished. Instead smaller updates spread out not only increases the chance of morep eople being able to pick up each sculpt as they come out, but also increases the amount of long term attention an army gets. Instead of a 1 month blast of marketing its now capable of being spread out over 6 and with the same amount of investment!
Yes and my bank account appreciates that! Redoing the aspects in plastic is a big undertaking and releasing them all at once would be overwhelming, especially financially as not everyone has a lot of spare cash lying around. Tying in the Phoenix Lords as well fills things out a bit.
What do people think is going to be included in the first book?
Why are we talking about special characters and their validity in the game? They ain't going anywhere guys. Let's move on.
The news about the first release has been so slow. They're stretching this thing out for far too long. I'm hoping there's a lot more substance to the release, and it's more like a Codex 2.0 to match the lead time.
Yeah I hope so but I get the feeling that this is pretty much it- 2 kits and 2 special characters, at leats for now as the focus has been very tight to the banshees and Incubi. Maybe they are teeing up for a larger codex related release early next year though? Did the revised chaos codex come with Vigilus or a bit after? I can't remember?
This is something that's confusing me. Four updated datasheets don't feel like enough for a whole new book, but that seems to be all that they're teasing for Phoenix Rising. Then again, the reveals are also getting dragged out, so maybe we'll see more rules-based stuff after Drazhar's new model is unveiled.
Add in a few formations and battlefield 'zone' rules.
GW isn't exactly shy these days about putting out books with less than 10 pages of rules content- see the SM supplements (except ultras). Vigilius and gathering storm books weren't exactly high on rules content either, or at least they were never described as having a lot of rules- I never bothered to buy them myself (GW's campaign books are largely shovelware products- the last one of any note was Armageddon, just for the sheer number of army lists).
As much as I love new models, I'm just as interested to see what new rules we can expect.
So far the new rules have been somewhat underwhelming and, though we don't have the full picture, I'm not hearing the same noise from the podcasts about these releases that they had for the powerhouse that is the SM codex 2.0.
Iracundus wrote: Maybe this is GW's way of gradually updating the Eldar range without having to devote space to updates during their next Codex release (leaving that space for new stuff in order to drive sales).
So maybe it starts off with Banshees vs. Incubi, especially since those two groups were most involved with the Ynnari faction when the Ynnari first came on the scene. Maybe Drazhar gets revealed as Arhra, then maybe after that they dribble Karandras and the Scorpions in, justifying it as Karandras getting involved in order to fight against his former master. And so on...
It's also likely GW testing out new release patterns. In the past they pretty much only updated things with a big codex launch; now they are experimenting with drip fed models instead. Which isn't a bad idea. Big drops of lots of models cost a lot to buy into and increase the chance of someone burning out before they've finished. Instead smaller updates spread out not only increases the chance of morep eople being able to pick up each sculpt as they come out, but also increases the amount of long term attention an army gets. Instead of a 1 month blast of marketing its now capable of being spread out over 6 and with the same amount of investment!
Yes and my bank account appreciates that! Redoing the aspects in plastic is a big undertaking and releasing them all at once would be overwhelming, especially financially as not everyone has a lot of spare cash lying around. Tying in the Phoenix Lords as well fills things out a bit.
This is assuming any other aspect gets the refresh that banshees might be getting/that GW actually has interest in continuing such a large xenos release.
Scorpions, Dragons, Spiders, Reapers, Hawks and Spears - 6 very distinct kits that have existed continuously since the dawn of 40k, with 6 supporting pheonix lord characters.
If this was a new primaris marine release, that many sprues of investment would be nothing, but that's an equivalent number of sprues as the Ork speed freek release (each Speed Freek buggy was a single sprue). Orks are arguably the single safest Xenos army to release kits for, and that was the biggest xenos release since the necron relaunch.
I would be extremely happy if they decided to refresh all the aspects. I really do not think that's actually in the cards. GW is just too risk-averse when it comes to any real support for xenos armies.
Here is some pure speculation: Anyone think Phoenix Rising will include actual non-White Dwarf rules for Ynnari? Could be just the index printed in a rule book or an improved version of those rules.
Iracundus wrote: Maybe this is GW's way of gradually updating the Eldar range without having to devote space to updates during their next Codex release (leaving that space for new stuff in order to drive sales).
So maybe it starts off with Banshees vs. Incubi, especially since those two groups were most involved with the Ynnari faction when the Ynnari first came on the scene. Maybe Drazhar gets revealed as Arhra, then maybe after that they dribble Karandras and the Scorpions in, justifying it as Karandras getting involved in order to fight against his former master. And so on...
It's also likely GW testing out new release patterns. In the past they pretty much only updated things with a big codex launch; now they are experimenting with drip fed models instead. Which isn't a bad idea. Big drops of lots of models cost a lot to buy into and increase the chance of someone burning out before they've finished. Instead smaller updates spread out not only increases the chance of more people being able to pick up each sculpt as they come out, but also increases the amount of long term attention an army gets. Instead of a 1 month blast of marketing its now capable of being spread out over 6 and with the same amount of investment!
They said a while back they wanted to move away from codex centered releases, it was when they acknowledged the common complaint of people having to wait years for codices to be updated before getting any new releases. I think GW would now prefer these event centered releases. I think its also a particularly good way to handle the armies that have a bunch of out of date models that just need updated sculpts, but where the unit rules aren't changing.
aka_mythos wrote: They said a while back they wanted to move away from codex centered releases, it was when they acknowledged the common complaint of people having to wait years for codices to be updated before getting any new releases. I think GW would now prefer these event centered releases. I think its also a particularly good way to handle the armies that have a bunch of out of date models that just need updated sculpts, but where the unit rules aren't changing.
They're in the process of releasing a new Marine Codex with 6 supplemental Codices.
They're not moving away from Codex-centred releases at all!
aka_mythos wrote: They said a while back they wanted to move away from codex centered releases, it was when they acknowledged the common complaint of people having to wait years for codices to be updated before getting any new releases. I think GW would now prefer these event centered releases. I think its also a particularly good way to handle the armies that have a bunch of out of date models that just need updated sculpts, but where the unit rules aren't changing.
They're in the process of releasing a new Marine Codex with 6 supplemental Codices.
They're not moving away from Codex-centred releases at all!
"moving away from" might not be the best way to put it, but considering plastic Banshees & Incubi are being released with no indication of new CWE or DE codices coming, we can say that Codex centered releases are no longer the primary way GW wants to release new minis. It's a mix of Codex and Campaign releases
I'm guessing you didn't actually read the story and are relying on good ol' 1d4chan inaccuracies.
Except I did though? I'm pretty sure Marneus Calgar did beat an Avatar of Khaine in single combat, and Draigo wrote on Mortarion's heart. Sure, the Demon Primarch was wounded from fighting a bunch of other Grey Knights, but that doesn't make the heart tattoo any less stupid.
So you didn't actually read the Draigo story is all you're admitting. Good to know.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: No, not even close. Special characters were so terribly priced you had no choice to let your opponent use them.
The rules explicitly said you had to ask opponent's permission. Even if it was allowed every time, it still marked special characters as an extra, rather than an integral component of the core game, as they are now.
[edit]Wait, you were not saying that they were not extra, you were saying that they were not fine back then because they were too expensive! Well, models intended for narrative play being unbalanced is not that big of a deal because they aren't intended for competitive play. Rather I get to play a cool custom jump pack canoness than being stuck playing Celestine almost every game because it's the only viable HQ option, and literally the only HQ jump pack option…
You're complaining about Sisters options. I could've seen that coming a mile away
So I see you have other problems going on rather than Special Characters not needing permission, nor should there ever have been a need for permission.
aka_mythos wrote: They said a while back they wanted to move away from codex centered releases, it was when they acknowledged the common complaint of people having to wait years for codices to be updated before getting any new releases. I think GW would now prefer these event centered releases. I think its also a particularly good way to handle the armies that have a bunch of out of date models that just need updated sculpts, but where the unit rules aren't changing.
They're in the process of releasing a new Marine Codex with 6 supplemental Codices.
They're not moving away from Codex-centred releases at all!
"moving away from" might not be the best way to put it, but considering plastic Banshees & Incubi are being released with no indication of new CWE or DE codices coming, we can say that Codex centered releases are no longer the primary way GW wants to release new minis. It's a mix of Codex and Campaign releases
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Marines are different. A mix of codex and campaign releases is pretty much what we should expect even if Marines get special treatment and end up with more books than all xenos combined. GW had picked up the pace of codex releases in 6th and 7th ed and they've gone to a lot of trouble to get out all codices (except Inquisition/Imperial Agents) out for 8th ed as quickly as possible. Since they couldn't provide every 8th ed codex with model releases there's no reason to keep going at that pace, and since every codex is reasonably up to date there's no reason to update a (non-Marine) codex if all they have to offer is one or two new kits. The codex is still for sale and people tempted into the new models may pick up the codex to play the army as well as the campaign book their new rules feature in. There's not desperate need anymore to release a codex just because there are new models for that army.
Marines get all those supplements not because or in spite of GW's general release model going forward but because they're Marine books and they'll sell.
It's probably better to look at the coming campaign books as providing GW with the means to update a couple of kits for the NPC armies while at the same time having a reason (not that they need one) to release more Marines alongside them. It's a good way to not decrease the shelf life of books even further while accomplishing the same thing, in effect.
I'm guessing you didn't actually read the story and are relying on good ol' 1d4chan inaccuracies.
Except I did though? I'm pretty sure Marneus Calgar did beat an Avatar of Khaine in single combat, and Draigo wrote on Mortarion's heart. Sure, the Demon Primarch was wounded from fighting a bunch of other Grey Knights, but that doesn't make the heart tattoo any less stupid.
So you didn't actually read the Draigo story is all you're admitting. Good to know.
You're right. Cthululs Spy should really read the exhaustive text of "the Draigo story" in the codex that begins with "alone and unaided" (paraphrased if not outright quoted) and ends with a carving of Draigo's old boss's name in Mortarion's heart with no indication that Mortarion or his body guard had in any way been previously wounded, exhausted or in any other way put at a disadvantage. Implying that Draigo needs a Daemon Primarch to be weakened before he goes a-carvin' is not supported by the actual lore.
I don't read 1d4chan and don't know what inaccuracies you are referring to, but I can't think of any embellishments they could add that would top the original Mat Ward masterpiece that made it into the codex.
I'm guessing you didn't actually read the story and are relying on good ol' 1d4chan inaccuracies.
Except I did though? I'm pretty sure Marneus Calgar did beat an Avatar of Khaine in single combat, and Draigo wrote on Mortarion's heart. Sure, the Demon Primarch was wounded from fighting a bunch of other Grey Knights, but that doesn't make the heart tattoo any less stupid.
So you didn't actually read the Draigo story is all you're admitting. Good to know.
They loosely retcon the event in "Mortarion's Heart." Draigo used Mortarion's true name to weaken him, so it's not like Draigo one v oned a daemon primarch unaided. But still
Galef wrote: "moving away from" might not be the best way to put it, but considering plastic Banshees & Incubi are being released with no indication of new CWE or DE codices coming, we can say that Codex centered releases are no longer the primary way GW wants to release new minis. It's a mix of Codex and Campaign releases
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Codex, campaign, and flatout just product releases.
The Dunerider wasn't in either Vigilus book. Nor was the Manipulus or the Repulsor Executioner. Those releases were all just rules included with the models.
I'm guessing you didn't actually read the story and are relying on good ol' 1d4chan inaccuracies.
Except I did though? I'm pretty sure Marneus Calgar did beat an Avatar of Khaine in single combat, and Draigo wrote on Mortarion's heart. Sure, the Demon Primarch was wounded from fighting a bunch of other Grey Knights, but that doesn't make the heart tattoo any less stupid.
So you didn't actually read the Draigo story is all you're admitting. Good to know.
I'd hardly call that a "story".
Wow. I know this gets mentioned a lot, but I had not seen the actual text of it. Even with all the hype, that is way stupider than I could have imagined.
Yea that GK codex is full of gems. They even anointed their armor is sisters blood if I recall. I threw my copy out earlier this summer when I was cleaning the hobby room
I'm guessing you didn't actually read the story and are relying on good ol' 1d4chan inaccuracies.
Except I did though? I'm pretty sure Marneus Calgar did beat an Avatar of Khaine in single combat, and Draigo wrote on Mortarion's heart. Sure, the Demon Primarch was wounded from fighting a bunch of other Grey Knights, but that doesn't make the heart tattoo any less stupid.
So you didn't actually read the Draigo story is all you're admitting. Good to know.
I'd hardly call that a "story".
Yeah, I don't see how I'm wrong, because that's sort of what I remember reading. Its actually worse than what I remember, because it says that Draigo did it by himself. Maybe its something my memory made up, because the original is so stupid.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
GaroRobe wrote: They loosely retcon the event in "Mortarion's Heart." Draigo used Mortarion's true name to weaken him, so it's not like Draigo one v oned a daemon primarch unaided. But still
Ah, maybe I'm thinking of that. I really hate retcons. They get confusing real fast.
Whatever way you cut it the Draigo story reads like bad fan fiction.
The only way i can even justify some of the more recent lore is to believe it practically is bad fan fiction written by some serf who lives in his Inquisitorial mums basement based on vague readings he came across on a dataslate before being pushed as gospel among his 'peers'.
So far as im concerned The Avatar is still a force to be reckoned with like in 2nd edition when it was literally the toughest thing in the game (M6, WS10, BS10, S8, T8, I10, W7, A5, LD10, 2+/4+ save, immune to plasma/melta/flamer, attacks ignore Daemonic Saves) and any story that tries to tell me otherwise is trash.
Anyway, looking forward to Drazhar next week, just hope it's not the last of the Craftworld releases but if anything else comes along i will be very much surprised.
Holy gak. Can you stop posting off topic drivel please ladies and gents? I've just reported like 5 posts and then got bored of the rest. If you want to talk about Draigo's hot action with Mortarion fanfiction or whatever go and do it in another thread please! Only last page did a Mod warn against exactly this! /rant
With that done, I have scoured the internets to bring more information from our friendly, neighbourhood/French rumourmonger.
Here's the lowdown on his take on Psychic Awakening - very positive, in my opinion (emphasis mine);
Awesome French Dude wrote:I read somewhere that there would be powers for the exarch aspect in PA Volume 1. 5 or 6 available by exarch (Example: to say to avenge there is one who passes them in CC / CT 2+) . This replaces the one in the profile. With a 1pc stratum it adds up. I also read that there will be rules for Drukharis but also for Ynnaris
Awesome French Dude wrote:The PA supplements apart from the fluff they will bring new additional rules to the original Codex. The Craftworlds for example are going to have their own world-class ship to do as in the SM supplements . So we can expect specific rules of world ships, warlord traits, powers and dedicated strats. Anyway we should have concrete very quickly it is expected early October. Then there will be the new AoS faction and end of October the IF / Sally.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Holy gak. Can you stop posting off topic drivel please ladies and gents? I've just reported like 5 posts and then got bored of the rest. If you want to talk about Draigo's hot action with Mortarion fanfiction or whatever go and do it in another thread please! Only last page did a Mod warn against exactly this! /rant
With that done, I have scoured the internets to bring more information from our friendly, neighbourhood/French rumourmonger.
Here's the lowdown on his take on Psychic Awakening - very positive, in my opinion (emphasis mine);
Awesome French Dude wrote:I read somewhere that there would be powers for the exarch aspect in PA Volume 1. 5 or 6 available by exarch (Example: to say to avenge there is one who passes them in CC / CT 2+) . This replaces the one in the profile. With a 1pc stratum it adds up. I also read that there will be rules for Drukharis but also for Ynnaris
By read somewhere he clearly means WarCom as GW already told us this when the Banshee Exarch was shown off.
Awesome French Dude wrote:The PA supplements apart from the fluff they will bring new additional rules to the original Codex. The Craftworlds for example are going to have their own world-class ship to do as in the SM supplements . So we can expect specific rules of world ships, warlord traits, powers and dedicated strats. Anyway we should have concrete very quickly it is expected early October. Then there will be the new AoS faction and end of October the IF / Sally.
I was hoping for something like this, lets see if it comes true.
Awesome French Dude wrote:The PA supplements apart from the fluff they will bring new additional rules to the original Codex. The Craftworlds for example are going to have their own world-class ship to do as in the SM supplements . So we can expect specific rules of world ships, warlord traits, powers and dedicated strats. Anyway we should have concrete very quickly it is expected early October. Then there will be the new AoS faction and end of October the IF / Sally.
I was hoping for something like this, lets see if it comes true.
Nice if it happens but I'll wait and see.
By comparison to the Space Marines or Chaos Space Marines and their subfactions, very little is known about each individual Craftworld. Even their stereotypes only date from the 3rd edition Craftworld Codex (some from 2nd edition Epic), and they haven't really been developed more beyond that.
BrianDavion wrote: I could see GW doing subfaction rules. however it might just be for a SINGLE subfaction. consider black legion in vigilius ablaze.
Brazen Beasts, The Purge, Red Corsairs, Flawsless Host and Scourged as well as Black Legion. Sure BL got the most but there was plenty of other subfaction rules as well. Either way it would be something more then the usual. I would agree that it will be less then the marines are getting, but I doubt if anyone else gets that kind of treatment and honestly I am fine with that, if all 20+ factions got 6 supplements... Well, you can see where I am going
Awesome French Dude wrote:The PA supplements apart from the fluff they will bring new additional rules to the original Codex. The Craftworlds for example are going to have their own world-class ship to do as in the SM supplements . So we can expect specific rules of world ships, warlord traits, powers and dedicated strats. Anyway we should have concrete very quickly it is expected early October. Then there will be the new AoS faction and end of October the IF / Sally.
I was hoping for something like this, lets see if it comes true.
Nice if it happens but I'll wait and see.
By comparison to the Space Marines or Chaos Space Marines and their subfactions, very little is known about each individual Craftworld. Even their stereotypes only date from the 3rd edition Craftworld Codex (some from 2nd edition Epic), and they haven't really been developed more beyond that.
In 6E/7E GW did a Iyanden craftworld supplement. I didn't purchase it, so I don't know how in-depth it went into the craftworld itself.
@Stormonu it was mostly lore a single column of special rules like can make Wraith Lords and knights characters and be warlords, and several relics and 1 psy power for spiritseers
Awesome French Dude wrote:I read somewhere that there would be powers for the exarch aspect in PA Volume 1. 5 or 6 available by exarch (Example: to say to avenge there is one who passes them in CC / CT 2+) . This replaces the one in the profile. With a 1pc stratum it adds up. I also read that there will be rules for Drukharis but also for Ynnaris
By read somewhere he clearly means WarCom as GW already told us this when the Banshee Exarch was shown off.
I believe that GW have only previewed 1 exarch power for the Banshee exarch and that's it? Forgive the google translate above but I believe our Frenchman is telling us that each aspect will get exarch powers and he gives an example of an Avengers power (that I don't really understand to be honest - we need a resident French speaker to help with the nuance I think).
