Does anyone in this thread actually play eldar because all I see is industrial levels of salt towards the eldar aesthetic. I mean, I know there was a meme back in 7th edition about nobody playing against eldar armies and shunning eldar players but jeez man.
Its literally the same banshee sculpt as before, and thats a good thing. Eldar don't need to reinvent whats not broken. 90% of Warhammer armies have unhelmeted models (usually squad leaders too) and honestly, the hair being part of the helmet or not is the most pendantic thing to argue about.
Well now you see the position Craftworlds players are in i.e. we get updated gak so rarely that we are ready to argue over a stupid helmet for pages since there's kinda nothing else to do.
Kirasu wrote: An aspect warrior unit wouldnt remove their armor in the middle of battle. The whole idea of soldiers without their proper uniform and protective equipment on during combat has always been totally absurd (yet people love helmetless marines).
A banshee mask requires the hardware to provide the disorienting shriek but the "helmet" part could be removed I'm sure. They could also simply remove the emitters and keep the helmet on like a smart warrior.
Why? I've seen plenty of photographs of US Marines from the height of the wars in the middle east sans helmets.
Shadenuat wrote: Well now you see the position Craftworlds players are in i.e. we get updated gak so rarely that we are ready to argue over a stupid helmet for pages since there's kinda nothing else to do.
I do find the beef with the aesthetic, for models that have been requested for years, a bit much to be honest. Particularly when we can see so little of the models.
The only thing I dont like about it (while still being surprised at it actually being such a conservative design) is the pose. I can't really put it into solid words, but I'm not feeling as much ... energy, perhaps, as I do from the current Exarch sculpt. Very nice model, and I dare say one will find its way into the Host, but ... Hmm.
Sorry for being so wishy-washy but it's rather hard to find the words.
Togusa wrote: Why? I've seen plenty of photographs of US Marines from the height of the wars in the middle east sans helmets.
The helmet is a part of inclosed system, protecting against gas attacks (was a thing once in the game), running targeting information, night vision etc.
The obvious reason why helmet can be removed is rule of cool.
But for some reason Ynnari remove them cause they're Ynnari. Which means that GW might be a bit confused themselves what do actual physical masks mean. More so it's an Exarch, and by old lore those get consumed by armor like Phoenix Lords are (who are basically original Exarches). Which is where another part of confusion comes.
Togusa wrote: Why? I've seen plenty of photographs of US Marines from the height of the wars in the middle east sans helmets.
The helmet is a part of inclosed system, protecting against gas attacks (was a thing once in the game), running targeting information, night vision etc.
The obvious reason why helmet can be removed is rule of cool.
But for some reason Ynnari remove them cause they're Ynnari. Which means that GW might be a bit confused themselves what do actual physical masks mean.
But it might be kinda close to truth. Like, CW wear masks to distance themselves from reality of war and not submit to bloodthirst; but Ynnari are fine with this. The aspect armor is full of symbolism after all.
Maybe these aren't Exarchs who turned from Khaine to Ynnead, but rather but rather aspect warriors who have devoted themselves to Ynnead and then become Exarchs.
Under Khaine you can't remove your helmet because you're physically subsumed into the armor over who knows how many centuries. Under Ynnead, being an Exarch might mean something completely different.
The Power Cosmic wrote: Maybe these aren't Exarchs who turned from Khaine to Ynnead, but rather but rather aspect warriors who have devoted themselves to Ynnead and then become Exarchs.
Under Khaine you can't remove your helmet because you're physically subsumed into the armor over who knows how many centuries. Under Ynnead, being an Exarch might mean something completely different.
Sure. But then you'd be an Exarch of Ynnead, not a Howling Banshee Aspect, etc.
Platuan4th wrote: I think a lot of people here don't really get how pantheons work. Just because you dedicate your service to one god doesn't mean you stop paying tribute to the rest.
Helping the Ynnari achieve their goals doesn't suddenly mean that Kahinites aren't still dedicated to Khaine.
That's true but taking your worship away from one god and giving it all to another seems like a bad thing for a priest whose become irretrievably obsessed to do.
Shadenuat wrote: Which means that GW might be a bit confused themselves what do actual physical masks mean.
People don't seem to get, GW is nowhere near obsessed with it's own lore as the most rabid fans are. If somehow there was a million-strong customer base for female marines tomorrow, they'd trip over themselves to release those, all previous fluff be damned.
I for one highly approve of the models, they look nice and dynamic, and it's nice to see more faces among the eldar lineup.
But it might be kinda close to truth. Like, CW wear masks to distance themselves from reality of war and not submit to bloodthirst; but Ynnari are fine with this. The aspect armor is full of symbolism after all.
When the jokes hit to close on target.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Shadenuat wrote: Obviously. I doubt it's Thorpe who is furiously typing the news on GW website.
It would be nice if those finally would be some female faces goddamit.
Kirasu wrote: An aspect warrior unit wouldnt remove their armor in the middle of battle. The whole idea of soldiers without their proper uniform and protective equipment on during combat has always been totally absurd (yet people love helmetless marines).
A banshee mask requires the hardware to provide the disorienting shriek but the "helmet" part could be removed I'm sure. They could also simply remove the emitters and keep the helmet on like a smart warrior.
Why? I've seen plenty of photographs of US Marines from the height of the wars in the middle east sans helmets.
Well, clearly helmets are highly valuable in all the hand-to-hand infantry combat that's strictly realistic in a future with ranged weaponry that can destroy entire planets from orbit.
Kirasu wrote: An aspect warrior unit wouldnt remove their armor in the middle of battle. The whole idea of soldiers without their proper uniform and protective equipment on during combat has always been totally absurd (yet people love helmetless marines).
A banshee mask requires the hardware to provide the disorienting shriek but the "helmet" part could be removed I'm sure. They could also simply remove the emitters and keep the helmet on like a smart warrior.
Why? I've seen plenty of photographs of US Marines from the height of the wars in the middle east sans helmets.
Well, clearly helmets are highly valuable in all the hand-to-hand infantry combat that's strictly realistic in a future with ranged weaponry that can destroy entire planets from orbit.
Helmets got reintroduced during WW1 to protect from death through shrappnell to the face.
And sometimes you can't just bomb the gak out of a planet.
Helms in the 40K world likely help with things like vision aids; breathing filters and air supply; armour and protection from harm (from shrapnel all gasses, acides, blades, claws, talons, drool, lasers etc...).
However at the same time don't forget some artwork shows a helm-less character but at the same time their neck is a mass of pipes and cables. Clearly some characters have enough bio-augmentations that the helm is more for for the uniform than functional.
If the argument is that guns and weapons are so deadly that the helm offers no net benefit then its removal might well not be an issue
Then there's the rule of cool - which supersedes most other arguments in artwork/models.
Don Savik wrote: Does anyone in this thread actually play eldar because all I see is industrial levels of salt towards the eldar aesthetic.
Well, I'm here because I was promised a release that would include not just Eldar but also DE, Harlequins and Ynnari.
Still waiting for anything relating to DE or Harlequins so in the meantime I might as well comment on the Banshee models.
Who promised you DE, Harlequins and Ynarri releases? E - in this, Craftworld focused release?
yeah assuming this involves dark eldar is silly when they've not said so. it's possiable the two factions paid attention by this book are CWE and Ynnari
Don Savik wrote: Does anyone in this thread actually play eldar because all I see is industrial levels of salt towards the eldar aesthetic.
Well, I'm here because I was promised a release that would include not just Eldar but also DE, Harlequins and Ynnari.
Still waiting for anything relating to DE or Harlequins so in the meantime I might as well comment on the Banshee models.
Who promised you DE, Harlequins and Ynarri releases? E - in this, Craftworld focused release?
"Phoenix Rising The ancient and proud Aeldari race is split into various factions. The stoic and noble Asuryani live their lives adrift on planet-sized Craftworlds. The depraved Drukhari venture forth from the dark metropolis of Commorragh to raid and pillage. The mysterious Harlequins travel the galaxy according to their unfathomable whims via the webway. And the newly formed Ynnari, comprised of members from all walks of Aeldari life, are united in the desire to awaken Ynnead, god of the dead."
Gosh, can't imagine why I thought the release might involve Dark Eldar, Harlequins and/or Ynnari.
Don Savik wrote: Does anyone in this thread actually play eldar because all I see is industrial levels of salt towards the eldar aesthetic.
Well, I'm here because I was promised a release that would include not just Eldar but also DE, Harlequins and Ynnari.
Still waiting for anything relating to DE or Harlequins so in the meantime I might as well comment on the Banshee models.
Who promised you DE, Harlequins and Ynarri releases? E - in this, Craftworld focused release?
"Phoenix Rising The ancient and proud Aeldari race is split into various factions. The stoic and noble Asuryani live their lives adrift on planet-sized Craftworlds. The depraved Drukhari venture forth from the dark metropolis of Commorragh to raid and pillage. The mysterious Harlequins travel the galaxy according to their unfathomable whims via the webway. And the newly formed Ynnari, comprised of members from all walks of Aeldari life, are united in the desire to awaken Ynnead, god of the dead."
Gosh, can't imagine why I thought the release might involve Dark Eldar, Harlequins and/or Ynnari.
That doesn't promise new plastic for those armies.
Ghaz wrote: That doesn't promise new plastic for those armies.
When did I mention new plastics?
Considering all the discussion has been on the new plastic Banshees...
sure but doesn't mean any additional releases, it could well be that CWE get a new unit, Dark Eldar some specialist rules, and Ynnari get rules for running without their special chars
Platuan4th wrote: I think a lot of people here don't really get how pantheons work. Just because you dedicate your service to one god doesn't mean you stop paying tribute to the rest.
Helping the Ynnari achieve their goals doesn't suddenly mean that Kahinites aren't still dedicated to Khaine.
That's true but taking your worship away from one god and giving it all to another seems like a bad thing for a priest whose become irretrievably obsessed to do.
I'm fairly sure the Aspect of Khaine they're obsessed with (hunting, obliteration, murder, speed, vengence, etc) cares not for whom the blood flows.
Blood for the Blood Handed God! Death for the Death God!
Don Savik wrote: Does anyone in this thread actually play eldar because all I see is industrial levels of salt towards the eldar aesthetic.
Well, I'm here because I was promised a release that would include not just Eldar but also DE, Harlequins and Ynnari.
Still waiting for anything relating to DE or Harlequins so in the meantime I might as well comment on the Banshee models.
Who promised you DE, Harlequins and Ynarri releases? E - in this, Craftworld focused release?
"Phoenix Rising The ancient and proud Aeldari race is split into various factions. The stoic and noble Asuryani live their lives adrift on planet-sized Craftworlds. The depraved Drukhari venture forth from the dark metropolis of Commorragh to raid and pillage. The mysterious Harlequins travel the galaxy according to their unfathomable whims via the webway. And the newly formed Ynnari, comprised of members from all walks of Aeldari life, are united in the desire to awaken Ynnead, god of the dead."
Gosh, can't imagine why I thought the release might involve Dark Eldar, Harlequins and/or Ynnari.
Nor me since that fluff piece says nothing about the releases you should expect and is literally a brief background piece.
Again - who promised youDE, Harlequin or Ynarri releases?
Platuan4th wrote: I think a lot of people here don't really get how pantheons work. Just because you dedicate your service to one god doesn't mean you stop paying tribute to the rest.
Helping the Ynnari achieve their goals doesn't suddenly mean that Kahinites aren't still dedicated to Khaine.
That's true but taking your worship away from one god and giving it all to another seems like a bad thing for a priest whose become irretrievably obsessed to do.
I'm fairly sure the Aspect of Khaine they're obsessed with (hunting, obliteration, murder, speed, vengence, etc) cares not for whom the blood flows.
Blood for the Blood Handed God! Death for the Death God!
(I swear I'm not tainted.)
Bharring gets it. My point was, Aspects are most likely there representing what they believe to be Khaine's interests in Ynnari's plans rather than actually wholesale swapping their full devotion. It's basically like a priest of Zeus praying for aide for Athens despite the fact that it's a city which has a different patron god in the pantheon.
Ghaz wrote: That doesn't promise new plastic for those armies.
When did I mention new plastics?
Considering all the discussion has been on the new plastic Banshees...
sure but doesn't mean any additional releases, it could well be that CWE get a new unit, Dark Eldar some specialist rules, and Ynnari get rules for running without their special chars
Didn't say that it doesn't, just that what was quoted didn't promise new plastic. The only thing each army has been promised is new rules...
Platuan4th wrote: I think a lot of people here don't really get how pantheons work. Just because you dedicate your service to one god doesn't mean you stop paying tribute to the rest.
Helping the Ynnari achieve their goals doesn't suddenly mean that Kahinites aren't still dedicated to Khaine.
That's true but taking your worship away from one god and giving it all to another seems like a bad thing for a priest whose become irretrievably obsessed to do.
I'm fairly sure the Aspect of Khaine they're obsessed with (hunting, obliteration, murder, speed, vengence, etc) cares not for whom the blood flows.
Blood for the Blood Handed God! Death for the Death God!
(I swear I'm not tainted.)
Bharring gets it. My point was, Aspects are most likely there representing what they believe to be Khaine's interests in Ynnari's plans rather than actually wholesale swapping their full devotion. It's basically like a priest of Zeus praying for aide for Athens despite the fact that it's a city which has a different patron god in the pantheon.
The aspects are more like Templars and the exarchs are specifically referred to as priests of khaine. They conduct all the rituals around the aspect of khaine they embody. Each exarch is literally one facet of Khaine.
What this is more like, is vestal virgins using their temples, sacred fire and religious rituals to pay fealty to Mars. The aspect is an expression of khaine - it would be like using the star of David to pray to Jesus.
But it might be kinda close to truth. Like, CW wear masks to distance themselves from reality of war and not submit to bloodthirst; but Ynnari are fine with this. The aspect armor is full of symbolism after all.
Shadenuat wrote: Obviously. I doubt it's Thorpe who is furiously typing the news on GW website.
It would be nice if those finally would be some female faces goddamit.
I can't help but laugh at all the comments regarding Exarch armour eating it's occupants, Gav Thorpe himself retconned that out over a decade ago in his Path of the Eldar books, if not earlier. And a good thing too because it was a dumb bit of lore.
Shadenuat wrote: Obviously. I doubt it's Thorpe who is furiously typing the news on GW website.
It would be nice if those finally would be some female faces goddamit.
I can't help but laugh at all the comments regarding Exarch armour eating it's occupants, Gav Thorpe himself retconned that out over a decade ago in his Path of the Eldar books, if not earlier. And a good thing too because it was a dumb bit of lore.
Yeah I mean...https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Eldar-Dire-Avengers-2017
People don't seem to get, GW is nowhere near obsessed with it's own lore as the most rabid fans are. If somehow there was a million-strong customer base for female marines tomorrow, they'd trip over themselves to release those, all previous fluff be damned.
.
Female Space Marines would be truly 'back-to-the-roots' lore though. They existed long, long before all that new-fangled ret-con nonsense about Space Marine legions and Primarchs and whatever the hipster kids jumped onto in 2nd Ed.
Shadenuat wrote: Obviously. I doubt it's Thorpe who is furiously typing the news on GW website.
It would be nice if those finally would be some female faces goddamit.
I can't help but laugh at all the comments regarding Exarch armour eating it's occupants, Gav Thorpe himself retconned that out over a decade ago in his Path of the Eldar books, if not earlier. And a good thing too because it was a dumb bit of lore.
So you find Phoenix lords dumb too? Because they were simply an extension of the process of making exarchs - 10,000 years of soul accumulation.
Do you also find farseers (the exarchs of the seer path) stupid for slowly solidifying over the centuries in a similar "doomed to your path but super powerful" way?
Don Savik wrote: Does anyone in this thread actually play eldar because all I see is industrial levels of salt towards the eldar aesthetic.
Well, I'm here because I was promised a release that would include not just Eldar but also DE, Harlequins and Ynnari.
Still waiting for anything relating to DE or Harlequins so in the meantime I might as well comment on the Banshee models.
Who promised you DE, Harlequins and Ynarri releases? E - in this, Craftworld focused release?
ZOMG OCTELFBER IS LIKE ORKTOBER ALL OVER AGAIN
Edit: Aelftober? Octobelf?
Well it will be the same as every other month - some bits and pieces for on faction alongsidde whatever Marine release is being highlighted that month.
There will be a good few new Primaris models I would think.
Imateria wrote: I can't help but laugh at all the comments regarding Exarch armour eating it's occupants, Gav Thorpe himself retconned that out over a decade ago in his Path of the Eldar books, if not earlier. And a good thing too because it was a dumb bit of lore.
Drukhari scum were not given a word on awesome Eldar lore.
And Thorpe also had Avatar of Khaine infested with genestealer. Yeah great writer.
People don't seem to get, GW is nowhere near obsessed with it's own lore as the most rabid fans are. If somehow there was a million-strong customer base for female marines tomorrow, they'd trip over themselves to release those, all previous fluff be damned.
.
Female Space Marines would be truly 'back-to-the-roots' lore though. They existed long, long before all that new-fangled ret-con nonsense about Space Marine legions and Primarchs and whatever the hipster kids jumped onto in 2nd Ed.
Fluff from a more civilized age ...
Spoiler:
I mean... personally I'm all for it, but that's not actually anything official from GW, but an article from GDW's (i.e. Games Designer's Workshop, not Games Workshop) magazine.
Shadenuat wrote: Obviously. I doubt it's Thorpe who is furiously typing the news on GW website.
It would be nice if those finally would be some female faces goddamit.
I can't help but laugh at all the comments regarding Exarch armour eating it's occupants, Gav Thorpe himself retconned that out over a decade ago in his Path of the Eldar books, if not earlier. And a good thing too because it was a dumb bit of lore.
So you find Phoenix lords dumb too? Because they were simply an extension of the process of making exarchs - 10,000 years of soul accumulation.
Do you also find farseers (the exarchs of the seer path) stupid for slowly solidifying over the centuries in a similar "doomed to your path but super powerful" way?
yeah, far from dumb lore. Actually much better than the watered down versions we have now.
I love how people are freaking out about Necrons/Tau/Black Templars getting rules with Psychic Awakening. There is hardly any confirmation that these rules will be Psychic powers for them. More likely, they will be getting ANTI-PSYKER rules.
And you know if GW didn't confirm those factions as getting new rules, people would be complaining about that too.
Imateria wrote: I can't help but laugh at all the comments regarding Exarch armour eating it's occupants, Gav Thorpe himself retconned that out over a decade ago in his Path of the Eldar books, if not earlier. And a good thing too because it was a dumb bit of lore.
Drukhari scum were not given a word on awesome Eldar lore.
And Thorpe also had Avatar of Khaine infested with genestealer. Yeah great writer.
That avatar patriarch thing was a true abomination, just not in the way the writer intended.
Imateria wrote: I can't help but laugh at all the comments regarding Exarch armour eating it's occupants, Gav Thorpe himself retconned that out over a decade ago in his Path of the Eldar books, if not earlier. And a good thing too because it was a dumb bit of lore.
Drukhari scum were not given a word on awesome Eldar lore.
And Thorpe also had Avatar of Khaine infested with genestealer. Yeah great writer.
That avatar patriarch thing was a true abomination, just not in the way the writer intended.
But at least it fits with a long standing tradition of "Worfing" the Avatar.
Need to show how badass a Space Marine is? Have him punch an Avatar.
Need to show how dire the situation is on a Craftworld overrun by Nids and left to the ravages of Slaanesh Daemons? Have a Keeper of Secrets possess an Avatar.
Need to show players how ridiculous the existing model is? FW creates an awesome sculpt showing what an Avatar should look like
Galef wrote: I love how people are freaking out about Necrons/Tau/Black Templars getting rules with Psychic Awakening. There is hardly any confirmation that these rules will be Psychic powers for them. More likely, they will be getting ANTI-PSYKER rules.
And you know if GW didn't confirm those factions as getting new rules, people would be complaining about that too.
-
I donlt think the Sisters of Silence logo is there either and they are the prime defence against the Psyker ....
Galef wrote: I love how people are freaking out about Necrons/Tau/Black Templars getting rules with Psychic Awakening. There is hardly any confirmation that these rules will be Psychic powers for them. More likely, they will be getting ANTI-PSYKER rules.
And you know if GW didn't confirm those factions as getting new rules, people would be complaining about that too.
-
I donlt think the Sisters of Silence logo is there either and they are the prime defence against the Psyker ....
I didn't see Custodes there either, unless they aren't using the right logo.
Maybe they are only displaying "major" factions?
Galef wrote: I love how people are freaking out about Necrons/Tau/Black Templars getting rules with Psychic Awakening. There is hardly any confirmation that these rules will be Psychic powers for them. More likely, they will be getting ANTI-PSYKER rules.
And you know if GW didn't confirm those factions as getting new rules, people would be complaining about that too.
-
I donlt think the Sisters of Silence logo is there either and they are the prime defence against the Psyker ....
I didn't see Custodes there either, unless they aren't using the right logo.
Maybe they are only displaying "major" factions?
Is the eagle with the wings up (2nd in on the 2nd row) not the Custodes? Or possibly Talons of the Emperor (covering SoS too).
Galef wrote: I love how people are freaking out about Necrons/Tau/Black Templars getting rules with Psychic Awakening. There is hardly any confirmation that these rules will be Psychic powers for them. More likely, they will be getting ANTI-PSYKER rules. And you know if GW didn't confirm those factions as getting new rules, people would be complaining about that too.
-
I donlt think the Sisters of Silence logo is there either and they are the prime defence against the Psyker ....
I didn't see Custodes there either, unless they aren't using the right logo. Maybe they are only displaying "major" factions?
Is the eagle with the wings up (2nd in on the 2nd row) not the Custodes? Or possibly Talons of the Emperor (covering SoS too).
That's what I thought at first, but apparently the Custodes symbol is supposed to be this :
World Eaters have a strategem for denying Witches without any witches of their own, and have the Brass Collar of Borghaster, which has to be one of the better anti-psycker doodads, just from its description alone (although the increased odds of Perils is cool too).
Does this mean the Black Templars won't get a primaris librarian?
All the new witchcraft goes into Tau and Necrons. Don't be greedy now.
Still bitter the Arbites Psi Judges don't seem to be getting new rules
And in all seriousness... Inquisition?
Hello?
Inquisition, you say? Nah, never heard of them.
It's a real shame GW doesn't give Arbites a second look. We have Genestealer Cults now and there been an upsurge in Traitor Guard and Cultists in plastic lately. You'd think Arbites would be a good match for an opposing force.
Then again, we have our third Rogue Trader now and they're not getting anything akin to a real army list.
Sometimes I wonder if anybody at GW even sees these opportunities...
Jidmah wrote: World Eaters can now deny psychic power cast within 1" of them by ripping off the psyker's arm and beating them to death with it.
In spite of a shocking lack of fiery death in your proposition, I approve of this way of treating witches.
Galef wrote: I love how people are freaking out about Necrons/Tau/Black Templars getting rules with Psychic Awakening. There is hardly any confirmation that these rules will be Psychic powers for them. More likely, they will be getting ANTI-PSYKER rules. And you know if GW didn't confirm those factions as getting new rules, people would be complaining about that too.
-
I donlt think the Sisters of Silence logo is there either and they are the prime defence against the Psyker ....
I didn't see Custodes there either, unless they aren't using the right logo. Maybe they are only displaying "major" factions?
Galef wrote: I love how people are freaking out about Necrons/Tau/Black Templars getting rules with Psychic Awakening. There is hardly any confirmation that these rules will be Psychic powers for them. More likely, they will be getting ANTI-PSYKER rules. And you know if GW didn't confirm those factions as getting new rules, people would be complaining about that too.
-
I donlt think the Sisters of Silence logo is there either and they are the prime defence against the Psyker ....
I didn't see Custodes there either, unless they aren't using the right logo. Maybe they are only displaying "major" factions?
Is the eagle with the wings up (2nd in on the 2nd row) not the Custodes? Or possibly Talons of the Emperor (covering SoS too).
Galef wrote: I love how people are freaking out about Necrons/Tau/Black Templars getting rules with Psychic Awakening. There is hardly any confirmation that these rules will be Psychic powers for them. More likely, they will be getting ANTI-PSYKER rules. And you know if GW didn't confirm those factions as getting new rules, people would be complaining about that too.
-
I donlt think the Sisters of Silence logo is there either and they are the prime defence against the Psyker ....
I didn't see Custodes there either, unless they aren't using the right logo. Maybe they are only displaying "major" factions?
Is the eagle with the wings up (2nd in on the 2nd row) not the Custodes? Or possibly Talons of the Emperor (covering SoS too).
That's what I thought at first, but apparently the Custodes symbol is supposed to be this :
Maybe it does mean Talons of the Emperor.
The Eagle with its wings up is the new emblem for the Custodes, has been since their release in model form. My guess is their add on for the Psychic Awakening campaigns will be them getting the SoS rolled in, and becoming the Talons.
They are basically the last ones in 40K at present. Which is not to say that there isn't room to still update/remove finecast and to add new models or update old plastics in other ranges; but that Craftworlders are very much the last. I hope that they get a good slew of releases to update their aspect warrior lines and add a few more neat things to the range. Give them a proper series of updates and new sculpts to really get them back on track.
Maybee we get a bunch of mortal heretics?
Pls.
Probably not.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: So uh, when's the next update? Because for a huge event GW is keeping pretty quiet about it.
"we’ll have another update next Monday"
Huh, so they do tell you. A bit long of a wait, but it'll probably pick up nearing release date.
Honestly, I'm expecting them to announce this Sunday that it will be up for pre-order on the 21st. October and November look to be busy months with two essentially new armies being released (the Ossiarch Bonereapers in October and the Adepta Sororitas in November). It's possible they could fit them in somewhere with those releases or wait until December, but I feel a release on September 28th is most likely.
We don't know exactly what is coming for Sisters of Battle(it might just be the codex and a pretty hefty stock of the army box) in November, but we're getting close to running out of time for what we know they want to get out this year.
We have Mawtribes that got teased at the AoS Open Day, Free Cities, Orruks, and Bonereapers--that's pretty packed for AoS.
We have Beastgrave on the 21st(the preorder date for the novel has been known since it went up on the "Coming Soon" section), if the novel's date is anything to go by. We don't know if it comes with any other warbands right off the bat but it might.
We know Sisters for 40k, the supplements for Marines, and Phoenix Rising...but Phoenix Rising(and Psychic Awakening at large) might actually be a way to lighten the load for revamped codices next year or in 2021.
GW still has specialist game stuff such as Beastgrave, Lizardman Blood Bowl team and AT Knights pending. There's a Beastgrave novel confirmed for the 21st, so this Sunday's preorder could well be all that stuff.
I reckon Psychic Awakening is a bit further out, and we'll see a few weeks of previews before any release.
I could see Beastgrave, Phoenix Rising and the new Banshee kit all being released the same weekend. We'll see in four days.
I think if anything's coming with Beastgrave, it's likely to be the Free Cities and Orruk Wartribes books--we know they aren't getting scenery, Endless Spells, or models with them.
Shadenuat wrote: Obviously. I doubt it's Thorpe who is furiously typing the news on GW website.
It would be nice if those finally would be some female faces goddamit.
I can't help but laugh at all the comments regarding Exarch armour eating it's occupants, Gav Thorpe himself retconned that out over a decade ago in his Path of the Eldar books, if not earlier. And a good thing too because it was a dumb bit of lore.
I find it rather funny that people don't remember Yvraine reconstituting the bodies of a number of Thousand Sons during Gathering Storm. Doesn't take a long stretch to have the Ynnari reforming the bodies of Exarchs that were subsumed into their armor, assuming this still a thing.
Honestly, the sheer number of ongoing projects GW tries to support is frustrating. The air game should have been left for Xmas, did we really need another specialist game right now? New Kill Team, new Blackstone Fortress expansion, new Beastgrave expansion, Warcry expansion (ha, haven't even finished building my warband yet). Then we have new AOS faction coming, new Sisters....oh and let's try to finish up these marines, plus the 2 new supplements. But wait, how about this new campaign....
It's insane.
Where does this thing about Exarch's being empty suits come from? My understanding was that even with the Phoenix lords there is a physical Eldar inside the suit. It was the wearers personality that was overwritten and absorbed by the suits spirit stones not there body.
GoatboyBeta wrote: Where does this thing about Exarch's being empty suits come from? My understanding was that even with the Phoenix lords there is a physical Eldar inside the suit. It was the wearers personality that was overwritten and absorbed by the suits spirit stones not there body.
GoatboyBeta wrote: Where does this thing about Exarch's being empty suits come from? My understanding was that even with the Phoenix lords there is a physical Eldar inside the suit. It was the wearers personality that was overwritten and absorbed by the suits spirit stones not there body.
GoatboyBeta wrote: Where does this thing about Exarch's being empty suits come from? My understanding was that even with the Phoenix lords there is a physical Eldar inside the suit. It was the wearers personality that was overwritten and absorbed by the suits spirit stones not there body.
His Master's Voice wrote: That's the kind of lore idea that sounds cool, but makes you ask so many awkward questions the moment you stop to think about it.
Phoenix lords are still described this way.
And it's no more awkward than farseers turning to crystal, which is still true.
Also here's a comparison - the only Exarch lore from current Codex:
EXARCHS
In theory, an Asuryani is capable of compartmentalising and
controlling their warrior selves, casting aside their blood-
hungry persona just as they would their wargear. When as
Aspect Warrior loses this ability to disassociate from their
killer-self, they become an Exarch. High priests of Khaine,
Exarchs are the keepers of the Bloody-Handed God’s shrines
and the teachers of his creed, and their abilities are far more
developed than even the finely-honed Aspect Warriors whom
they lead to battle. Theirlives are utterly dedicated to their
Aspect’s particular way of war, and the teaching, training and
ceremony that go with it.
Upon initiation, an Exarch will don an elaborate version of
Aspect Warrior armour, studded with waystones that contain
the souls of their shrine’s previous Exarchs. Thewearer will
assume the sacred name associated with the armour, and his
own spirit mingles with those of the departed. So empowered,
the Exarch can draw upon the skill, wisdom and emotions
of their predecessors, and any remaining sense of themselves
as a distinct being is lost amidst the susurrus of the dead. It
is a process that can never be reversed, and all who undergo
it spend the rest of their days held in both fear and awe by
their kin.
GoatboyBeta wrote: Where does this thing about Exarch's being empty suits come from? My understanding was that even with the Phoenix lords there is a physical Eldar inside the suit. It was the wearers personality that was overwritten and absorbed by the suits spirit stones not there body.
That's my memory as well.
Indeed, that's the current lore. An apparently, the Exarch process CAN actually be reverted, as with the Visarch, who is a former Exarch (however, you could attribute this to bad writing, as it directly contradicts other lore).
GoatboyBeta wrote: Where does this thing about Exarch's being empty suits come from? My understanding was that even with the Phoenix lords there is a physical Eldar inside the suit. It was the wearers personality that was overwritten and absorbed by the suits spirit stones not there body.
so whether you prefer the old version of an exarch vanishing inside their armour, or the new version of their body still existing, but never taking the armour off
a new warp God or God in Waiting is going to be able to reverse things and pull the exarch out of the warrior dream, providing a new body if necessary (after all nothing is sweeter to a god than pinching an important follower from a rival)
While the 2nd edition background had Exarchs being absorbed and being animated suits of armor like Phoenix Lords, this has been modified since at least 2004 by Jes Goodwin, the one that created the Eldar in the first place:
Similar sketches exist for the other Aspects, all dating from around the same time. These sketches can be found in The Eldar Collection which is basically Jes Goodwin's compiled sketches down the years.
One possible reconciliation of the two is that an Exarch is still flesh initially but over time becomes absorbed into the armor. So all the helmetless ones are just ones that have yet to be absorbed.
All 2004-2005 helmetless sketches are of Exarchs, not average Aspect Warriors. One sketch of the Banshee Exarch has notes from Jes saying force fields protect the head, and also labeling the pods on either side of the head as the psychosonic amplifiers that project the Banshee scream. Other sketches for the Scorpion and Dark Repear Exarch (both of which can be easily Googled) show their specialized headgear are still present even in the helmetless Exarch versions. Exarchs wear their psychological war mask all the time, so to them it does not matter any more whether they wear a physical helmet or not. For normal non-trapped Eldar, the donning of their armor and the helmet is a ritual and the helmet has ritual significance, symbolizing the wearing of their war mask. We don't see them helmetless. Possibly also because a force field setup might be too much effort to make for a non-Exarch.
Personally I prefer Exarchs to have helmets, but the possibility of helmetless Exarchs has existed since Jes sketched them in 2004, long before the Ynnari were introduced. There is nothing specifically I can see in the new Banshee Exarch helmetless head that specifically denotes Ynnari. It could just as easily represent a Craftworlder non-Ynnari Exarch.
It might also be a bit like the Jedi from Starwars - that the body remains until right at the point of death and then, for those with the most powerful bond, it vanishes into the suit in those very last moments. Not all will achieve this level of bonding, but some will; their form absorbed into the powerful suit. That would account for how the suit can move and operate the whole time; and also accounts for the variation in absorption.
It's also worth to remember Ynnari (specifically Yvraine in the crucibael ) are capable to recall the memories and knowledge of previous absorbed souls.
So it may be the way GW has chosen to develop the Ynnari version of aspects as individuals that use the memories of previous Eldar who walked the Path as Banshees.
P.S: either way i'm anxious to know what else they'll show this monday i hope some more insights on the campaign than just the Banshee models and rules.
Iracundus wrote: While the 2nd edition background had Exarchs being absorbed and being animated suits of armor like Phoenix Lords, this has been modified since at least 2004 by Jes Goodwin, the one that created the Eldar in the first place:
All 2004-2005 helmetless sketches are of Exarchs, not average Aspect Warriors. One sketch of the Banshee Exarch has notes from Jes saying force fields protect the head, and also labeling the pods on either side of the head as the psychosonic amplifiers that project the Banshee scream. Other sketches for the Scorpion and Dark Repear Exarch (both of which can be easily Googled) show their specialized headgear are still present even in the helmetless Exarch versions. Exarchs wear their psychological war mask all the time, so to them it does not matter any more whether they wear a physical helmet or not. For normal non-trapped Eldar, the donning of their armor and the helmet is a ritual and the helmet has ritual significance, symbolizing the wearing of their war mask. We don't see them helmetless. Possibly also because a force field setup might be too much effort to make for a non-Exarch.
Personally I prefer Exarchs to have helmets, but the possibility of helmetless Exarchs has existed since Jes sketched them in 2004, long before the Ynnari were introduced. There is nothing specifically I can see in the new Banshee Exarch helmetless head that specifically denotes Ynnari. It could just as easily represent a Craftworlder non-Ynnari Exarch.
Phoenix lords have retained the absorbed by their armour schtick though and as Karandras is not the original scorpion, it's pretty clear that absorption is a factor of time more than anything else.
I REALLY wish GW would give us a range of exarchs rather than crappy team leader or uber demigod.
IMO, the team leaders are basically new exarchs. Older veteran exarchs would be better with more exarch powers, while the shrine masters, leaders for the entire shrine (because I ignore the impracticality of a shrine equaling one squad that Thorpe has used) would be on their way to being phoenix lord level.
To use a marine analogy:
Team leader Exarch = Lieutenant
Elder Exarch = Captain
Shrine lord = chapter master
Phoenix Lord = Primarch (there are even less phoenix lords than there are primarchs, which should kick in the 'inverse law of ninjitsu... :p)
Considering that the helmetless Exarch is specifically called out as being related to Ynnead, maybe that's the answer.
After all, Yvraine was able to undo the Rubric of Ahriman. Maybe she does something similar with the exarch, and "frees" them from their armor? Craftworlders find this offensive and that's why they're exarchs aren't helmetless?
GaroRobe wrote: Considering that the helmetless Exarch is specifically called out as being related to Ynnead, maybe that's the answer.
After all, Yvraine was able to undo the Rubric of Ahriman. Maybe she does something similar with the exarch, and "frees" them from their armor? Craftworlders find this offensive and that's why they're exarchs aren't helmetless?
The Dire Avenger Exarch has had the helmetless option for years now, again long before the Ynnari were introduced.
Hmm. Pretty sure I have a helmetless exarch already. A dire avenger from the old hybrid kit- guardian sprue with metal DA bits. One head option was a bare head with the DA hair crest.
Even newest Exarch would be a being of incredible experience and skill, not someone on a level of a marine sargeant...but then again, lorewise eldar guardian has the experience to match a veteran space marine, and aspect warriors should be probably on par with chapter masters.
So much for theory, we all know how it looks in the game.
The one that confuses me is the sacrifice of an exarch to awaken the Avatar. Do they take a newly lost to the path of the warrior Eldar, or do they toss away millennia of experience and multiple aggregate souls... for one battle’s worth of activity?
changemod wrote: The one that confuses me is the sacrifice of an exarch to awaken the Avatar. Do they take a newly lost to the path of the warrior Eldar, or do they toss away millennia of experience and multiple aggregate souls... for one battle’s worth of activity?
Nope. The soulstone of the individual is removed from their exarch armor (in effect, severing them from the collective of souls whirling about in the thing) before they go on their playdate with the Avatar. The extant Exarch personality and memories remain in the armor.
changemod wrote: The one that confuses me is the sacrifice of an exarch to awaken the Avatar. Do they take a newly lost to the path of the warrior Eldar, or do they toss away millennia of experience and multiple aggregate souls... for one battle’s worth of activity?
This is where the background is inconsistent because of different authors with differing visions writing different things.
2nd edition Codex says it is an Aspect Warrior, not an Exarch, that is sacrificed. Gav Thorpe, in his works, writes it as an Exarch.
I personally prefer Aspect Warrior because it allows for the Eldar to participate in regular battles without basically destroying all their Exarchs and shrines. Secondly, the entire Avatar awakening ceremony is a symbolic re-enactment of the final battle of Eldanesh against Khaine, wielding Anaris. Eldanesh had refused Khaine's offer of supremacy in return for swearing the Eldar race to Khaine. Therefore it is symbolically more appropriate IMO to have an Aspect Warrior, one not yet given over permanently to Khaine, to be the sacrifice rather than the Exarchs, who are trapped on the Path of the Warrior and thus already Khaine's.
I never read the 2nd ed codex to imply that the body melded or was absorbed into the armor.
Rather, the term "spirit stone" implies a body/spirit dualism.
It records the spirit. The body is left out of the equation...
because it dies, perhaps is honored, perhaps is never recovered,
in which case a new suit of armor is necessary.
Or, its recovery (cue scenario).
changemod wrote: The one that confuses me is the sacrifice of an exarch to awaken the Avatar. Do they take a newly lost to the path of the warrior Eldar, or do they toss away millennia of experience and multiple aggregate souls... for one battle’s worth of activity?
Avatar stays around more than a battle iirc. More like campaing.
IIRC, in the scorpion novel, the protagonist's original exarch doesn't participate in the final battle of the novel as he's getting a bit too old. That would suggest that there are still working biological parts in that armor. But there's definite confirmation that there's no body in a Phoenix Lord's armor.
Personally, I've always held the opinion that an Exarch's body doesn't fade so long as it's still alive. But if the body dies in a fashion that doesn't wreck the armor (such as natural causes), then the physical body will wither away while the exarch's consciousness continues to animate the armor.
changemod wrote: The one that confuses me is the sacrifice of an exarch to awaken the Avatar. Do they take a newly lost to the path of the warrior Eldar, or do they toss away millennia of experience and multiple aggregate souls... for one battle’s worth of activity?
This is where the background is inconsistent because of different authors with differing visions writing different things.
2nd edition Codex says it is an Aspect Warrior, not an Exarch, that is sacrificed. Gav Thorpe, in his works, writes it as an Exarch.
I personally prefer Aspect Warrior because it allows for the Eldar to participate in regular battles without basically destroying all their Exarchs and shrines. Secondly, the entire Avatar awakening ceremony is a symbolic re-enactment of the final battle of Eldanesh against Khaine, wielding Anaris. Eldanesh had refused Khaine's offer of supremacy in return for swearing the Eldar race to Khaine. Therefore it is symbolically more appropriate IMO to have an Aspect Warrior, one not yet given over permanently to Khaine, to be the sacrifice rather than the Exarchs, who are trapped on the Path of the Warrior and thus already Khaine's.
Except the 2nd Ed fluff was over written in 3rd through the codexes when they further explored the ritual and the Court of the Young King and clarified that it is, indeed, an Exarch chosen.
changemod wrote: The one that confuses me is the sacrifice of an exarch to awaken the Avatar. Do they take a newly lost to the path of the warrior Eldar, or do they toss away millennia of experience and multiple aggregate souls... for one battle’s worth of activity?
Avatar stays around more than a battle iirc. More like campaing.
Be interesting to see an Avatar with some down time between battles. Does it stand in the corner, glowing and seething? Does it keep itself busy by curling up with a good book? Play tennis?
Avatars don't have down time. When a battle is over, they go off looking for another battle, and the rest of the army has to try to keep up with them. That's how Eldar end up losing all the time even though they can see the future. Once the avatar comes out they just have to fight until the avatar gets destroyed.
Iracundus wrote: While the 2nd edition background had Exarchs being absorbed and being animated suits of armor like Phoenix Lords, this has been modified since at least 2004 by Jes Goodwin, the one that created the Eldar in the first place:
All 2004-2005 helmetless sketches are of Exarchs, not average Aspect Warriors. One sketch of the Banshee Exarch has notes from Jes saying force fields protect the head, and also labeling the pods on either side of the head as the psychosonic amplifiers that project the Banshee scream. Other sketches for the Scorpion and Dark Repear Exarch (both of which can be easily Googled) show their specialized headgear are still present even in the helmetless Exarch versions. Exarchs wear their psychological war mask all the time, so to them it does not matter any more whether they wear a physical helmet or not. For normal non-trapped Eldar, the donning of their armor and the helmet is a ritual and the helmet has ritual significance, symbolizing the wearing of their war mask. We don't see them helmetless. Possibly also because a force field setup might be too much effort to make for a non-Exarch.
Personally I prefer Exarchs to have helmets, but the possibility of helmetless Exarchs has existed since Jes sketched them in 2004, long before the Ynnari were introduced. There is nothing specifically I can see in the new Banshee Exarch helmetless head that specifically denotes Ynnari. It could just as easily represent a Craftworlder non-Ynnari Exarch.
Phoenix lords have retained the absorbed by their armour schtick though and as Karandras is not the original scorpion, it's pretty clear that absorption is a factor of time more than anything else.
I REALLY wish GW would give us a range of exarchs rather than crappy team leader or uber demigod.
IMO, the team leaders are basically new exarchs. Older veteran exarchs would be better with more exarch powers, while the shrine masters, leaders for the entire shrine (because I ignore the impracticality of a shrine equaling one squad that Thorpe has used) would be on their way to being phoenix lord level.
To use a marine analogy:
Team leader Exarch = Lieutenant
Elder Exarch = Captain
Shrine lord = chapter master
Phoenix Lord = Primarch (there are even less phoenix lords than there are primarchs, which should kick in the 'inverse law of ninjitsu... :p)
there are only 3 primarchs in the game and a half dozen pheonix lords, whom also are not restricted by their craft world unlike primarchs whom are restricted by their chapter tactics. Also Primarchs are warp infused super beings, Pheonix Lords for all their prowess are still ELDAR. there are physical limits on what they can do and all.
changemod wrote: The one that confuses me is the sacrifice of an exarch to awaken the Avatar. Do they take a newly lost to the path of the warrior Eldar, or do they toss away millennia of experience and multiple aggregate souls... for one battle’s worth of activity?
This is where the background is inconsistent because of different authors with differing visions writing different things.
2nd edition Codex says it is an Aspect Warrior, not an Exarch, that is sacrificed. Gav Thorpe, in his works, writes it as an Exarch.
I personally prefer Aspect Warrior because it allows for the Eldar to participate in regular battles without basically destroying all their Exarchs and shrines. Secondly, the entire Avatar awakening ceremony is a symbolic re-enactment of the final battle of Eldanesh against Khaine, wielding Anaris. Eldanesh had refused Khaine's offer of supremacy in return for swearing the Eldar race to Khaine. Therefore it is symbolically more appropriate IMO to have an Aspect Warrior, one not yet given over permanently to Khaine, to be the sacrifice rather than the Exarchs, who are trapped on the Path of the Warrior and thus already Khaine's.
Except the 2nd Ed fluff was over written in 3rd through the codexes when they further explored the ritual and the Court of the Young King and clarified that it is, indeed, an Exarch chosen.
And in the last Codex it is back to Aspect Warrior
Iracundus wrote: While the 2nd edition background had Exarchs being absorbed and being animated suits of armor like Phoenix Lords, this has been modified since at least 2004 by Jes Goodwin, the one that created the Eldar in the first place:
All 2004-2005 helmetless sketches are of Exarchs, not average Aspect Warriors. One sketch of the Banshee Exarch has notes from Jes saying force fields protect the head, and also labeling the pods on either side of the head as the psychosonic amplifiers that project the Banshee scream. Other sketches for the Scorpion and Dark Repear Exarch (both of which can be easily Googled) show their specialized headgear are still present even in the helmetless Exarch versions. Exarchs wear their psychological war mask all the time, so to them it does not matter any more whether they wear a physical helmet or not. For normal non-trapped Eldar, the donning of their armor and the helmet is a ritual and the helmet has ritual significance, symbolizing the wearing of their war mask. We don't see them helmetless. Possibly also because a force field setup might be too much effort to make for a non-Exarch.
Personally I prefer Exarchs to have helmets, but the possibility of helmetless Exarchs has existed since Jes sketched them in 2004, long before the Ynnari were introduced. There is nothing specifically I can see in the new Banshee Exarch helmetless head that specifically denotes Ynnari. It could just as easily represent a Craftworlder non-Ynnari Exarch.
Phoenix lords have retained the absorbed by their armour schtick though and as Karandras is not the original scorpion, it's pretty clear that absorption is a factor of time more than anything else.
I REALLY wish GW would give us a range of exarchs rather than crappy team leader or uber demigod.
IMO, the team leaders are basically new exarchs. Older veteran exarchs would be better with more exarch powers, while the shrine masters, leaders for the entire shrine (because I ignore the impracticality of a shrine equaling one squad that Thorpe has used) would be on their way to being phoenix lord level.
To use a marine analogy:
Team leader Exarch = Lieutenant
Elder Exarch = Captain
Shrine lord = chapter master
Phoenix Lord = Primarch (there are even less phoenix lords than there are primarchs, which should kick in the 'inverse law of ninjitsu... :p)
there are only 3 primarchs in the game and a half dozen pheonix lords, whom also are not restricted by their craft world unlike primarchs whom are restricted by their chapter tactics. Also Primarchs are warp infused super beings, Pheonix Lords for all their prowess are still ELDAR. there are physical limits on what they can do and all.
Phoenix lords are basically infinity circuits inside a small wraithlord, powered by the warp completely. They have no organs to damage, no brain to fatigue.
They Are a singular will powered by the souls of those who have sacrifices themselves to the armour.
From the novels and fluff I've seen, the Exarch is still eventually absorbed into the suit. Essentially they adopt it as a normal Aspect Warrior through whatever machinations lead to them getting lost on the path. It's reasonable to expect they'd remain a normal physical Eldar for some time. ..only slowly being absorbed into suit. It doesn't seem to be like the Phoenix Lord suits which more or less suck the soul of the Eldar into them.
Think of a leper. Initially you'd be sickly and covered in boils, etc. The more infected you become, the more clothing, wraps, bandages you'd wear. Eventually you'd even don a mask or face shield to hide your features etc. That's how I see an Exarch. Eventually the helmet simply doesn't come off after a battle...
I do think (while we're on the topic), the Eldar need a cool stratagem where an Aspect Warrior Exarch can sacrifice themselves to bring back a slain Phoenix Lord (with D3 wounds or something)....obviously of its own Aspect. You could limit it to once per game, etc.
One thing I don't remember lore about is what exactly happens to physical eldar body when they die? Do they get a funeral and get buried? Go into the recycling tanks Alpha Centauri style? Ejected into space?
Eumerin wrote: Phoenix Lords are still eldar, but not in a physical or biological sense. There's no body in the armor.
yes, but they're only an amalgam of eldar culture's finest warriors since time almost-immemorial...of course they can't be as strong as Emperor's finest creation, they're just eldar. Eldar are dumb, slow and deaf compared to Emperor, the certified brain genius that plunged humanity into death spiral as a species.
Eumerin wrote: Phoenix Lords are still eldar, but not in a physical or biological sense. There's no body in the armor.
yes, but they're only an amalgam of eldar culture's finest warriors since time almost-immemorial...of course they can't be as strong as Emperor's finest creation, they're just eldar. Eldar are dumb, slow and deaf compared to Emperor, the certified brain genius that plunged humanity into death spiral as a species.
It's not like the Eldar ever plunged themselves into a death spiral is it? They certainly never fell from grace.
There's no point comparing the Primarchs and Phoenix Lords, or trying to make comparisons between an Eldar unit and a space marine one.
GW aren't even consistent with the respective power of these creations - if I'm reading an Eldar focused book an Exarch is incrsdibly powerful, a Phoenix Lord is a demigod and an Avatar of Khaine is a walking god. If I'm reading a marine book an Avatar of Khaine might become a plaything. The same thing happens in the codexes. Its impossible to draw comparisons because one day a tactical marine is taking on an entire army of Eldar while another day a singular Harlequin is enough to destroy a company. It all depends on what suits the story.
What are we going to see on Monday? A new Jain Zar preview? Rules preview instead?
If/when we see Jain we'd see what place GW considers right for Aspects and their leaders. In my opinion a good place for PL is between Chapter Masters and the end of the pricing line models. With interesting rules and synergies over pure killing power. Like Asurmen for his price but with better rules and stat line. A 110 points Phoenix does look goddamn weird I admit. A 175 points one looks reasonable. But honestly at this point and all the suffer PL and Aspects went through I will take basically anything.
An Actual Englishman wrote: GW aren't even consistent with the respective power of these creations - if I'm reading an Eldar focused book an Exarch is incrsdibly powerful, a Phoenix Lord is a demigod and an Avatar of Khaine is a walking god. If I'm reading a marine book an Avatar of Khaine might become a plaything. The same thing happens in the codexes. Its impossible to draw comparisons because one day a tactical marine is taking on an entire army of Eldar while another day a singular Harlequin is enough to destroy a company. It all depends on what suits the story.
And they say 40k isn't realistic.
Anyways, I really, really like the face on the helmetless banshee. Because it isn't a 'pretty' scream where the figure still looks handsome/beautiful/heroic, it's an 'ugly' scream that heavily distorts the face with emotion. It is hard to state how rare that is, and how rare it is for it to be done well.
It's not like the Eldar ever plunged themselves into a death spiral is it? They certainly never fell from grace
Yes, but they're just dumb eldar, not Emperor
and not alchemicial creations blending the warp with flesh etc. Understand, the primarchs are not human
A HUMAN stat line is S3 T3 etc, any 4s on your statline is superhuman
Or a catachan or a khornate Heretic.
You were saying?
Catachan are noted for higher than normal muscle mass beyond that of an average human are they not? The strength on the charge for khorne stuff is to represent a more frenzied attack, lending reckless strength to the charge.
These are supposed to be representing human +1 circumstances.
I feel like GW is mirroring Trump with this campaign. "Its going to be big, UGE, biggest campaign yet" ..... again and again, one model preview, no information. "UGE, listen to me, I'm telling you UGE!!!!"
It's not like the Eldar ever plunged themselves into a death spiral is it? They certainly never fell from grace
Yes, but they're just dumb eldar, not Emperor
and not alchemicial creations blending the warp with flesh etc. Understand, the primarchs are not human
A HUMAN stat line is S3 T3 etc, any 4s on your statline is superhuman
What you seem unable to grasp, Brian, is that almost every faction has their primarch.
I play Orks. Therefore do I believe my boy Ghazzy could take on any primarch and stomp him flat? You'd better believe it. For some Eldar players, they may believe the same thing of their Phoenix Lords.
Basically - in this insane, inconsistent and make believe setting that GW have created in 40k most factions believe they have a 'primarch level' character/thing that's the pinnacle of the faction because it's cool as feth. Players of none marine armies all know that their pinnacle creation would likely get rekt by a primarch if GW ever wrote a story around it, but that's more to do with GW hyper biased writing than any in game power metric.
Lest we forget there was an Ork, a Big Mek of all things, that almost killed big daddy empy himself. Legit had him in a death grip, would've straight up killed if not for interference.
Justyn wrote: I feel like GW is mirroring Trump with this campaign. "Its going to be big, UGE, biggest campaign yet" ..... again and again, one model preview, no information. "UGE, listen to me, I'm telling you UGE!!!!"
It's not like the Eldar ever plunged themselves into a death spiral is it? They certainly never fell from grace
Yes, but they're just dumb eldar, not Emperor
and not alchemicial creations blending the warp with flesh etc. Understand, the primarchs are not human
A HUMAN stat line is S3 T3 etc, any 4s on your statline is superhuman
And Phoenix lords are not eldar either, they're essentially self-propelled magical suits imbued with souls and god's powers. Piloted by souls of finest warriors ever birthed by a race renowned for it's skills and dedication/obsession with it's chosen path. But marine fans would feel insecure if marines weren't best at everything in lore, so I get it. It's even reflected in BL. For every book that has a phoenix lord or avatar do something cool, there's five where squaddie Brooding McGrumpyface of Emperor's Dirty Laundry chapter murders six avatars like they're made out of candyfloss. Let's be honest, the game at this point in time is aimed solely at keeping marine fans happy and their superhuman self-inserts undefeated. Expect nothing else in the upcoming campaign.
Justyn wrote: I feel like GW is mirroring Trump with this campaign. "Its going to be big, UGE, biggest campaign yet" ..... again and again, one model preview, no information. "UGE, listen to me, I'm telling you UGE!!!!"
Sure is weird how they're not showing the next year's worth of releases all at once, huh? Almost like they're trying to build up interest gradually or something...
Justyn wrote: I feel like GW is mirroring Trump with this campaign. "Its going to be big, UGE, biggest campaign yet" ..... again and again, one model preview, no information. "UGE, listen to me, I'm telling you UGE!!!!"
*David Attenborough Voice*
Here, we see the wild internet poster. A playful, innocent creature, frolicking in its youth by a seemingly threat free meadow, making a simple joking comment post on a thread.
However, the ominous bassoons in the background tell you, dear viewer, that if you don't want to see this little creature's blood and guts as it's snarfed down by some hideous predator, it's probably a good time to look away.
This hole thread has turned into "my dad is stronger then your dad" arguments lmao. Trying to convince anyone that the faction they love is somehow beneath the one you love is not productive. It's also not possible.
It's not even a worthwhile thought exercise since GW don't have established rules in their own universe that they don't regularly contradict, they just write whatever sounds cool and keeps everyone happy.
The fluff is marketing to sell each brand of models to it's target audience. Only in this case GW owns every brand, so it's kind of hilarious. It's like that car dealer telling a Ford guy Fords are better then Chevy's and ten minutes later telling the reverse to a Chevy guy in order to make the customers all happy.
Red Corsair wrote: This hole thread has turned into "my dad is stronger then your dad" arguments lmao. Trying to convince anyone that the faction they love is somehow beneath the one you love is not productive. It's also not possible.
It's not even a worthwhile thought exercise since GW don't have established rules in their own universe that they don't regularly contradict, they just write whatever sounds cool and keeps everyone happy.
The fluff is marketing to sell each brand of models to it's target audience. Only in this case GW owns every brand, so it's kind of hilarious. It's like that car dealer telling a Ford guy Fords are better then Chevy's and ten minutes later telling the reverse to a Chevy guy in order to make the customers all happy.
To me, it's interesting to watch people "argue" things that, as far as I can tell, don't exist as matters of fact, only as matter of interpretation, on the basis of "seeming" facts.
There really is not a "fact" of GW fluff. Because even the fact of the matter on what-has-been-written, is only a "fact" in so far as it is the selected interpretation of whoever happened to write that. So, there is no necessity here; tomorrow, if someone at GW decided to write some fluff that Eldar are actually only 1 year old, suddenly this is a seeming fact. Since there is no Eldar as a fact of the matter which to compare with, since any past fluff is as arbitrary as the "new" fluff, there is no way to "prove" anything one way or the other.
It really is just a case of "this is the interpretation I personally like." There isn't anything wrong with that, but it means there is no "correct" or "incorrect" Eldar. There could be what someone might consider "logically consistent" Eldar, or "thematically consistent" Eldar, but again, these will just be arbitrary, personal opinions, not matters of fact.
OK, I doubt anyone is still reading, or that this makes sense, so I'll stop nonsensically rambling now,
Nurglitch wrote: The theology of 40k is what keeps us coming back to it.
I'm not against it, I just (maybe mistakenly) find myself apt to pointing out what it is we all seem to "really" be doing. I think that conceding those points lets us get to a place of actual productive discourse, but again, maybe I am misguided.
Perhaps, aside a notion of 40k theology, we need more 40kteleology?
I think people just need to take a step back and realize it's OK for everyone to be the hero based on perspective. If you are a die hard space marine player then it's fine to be convinced your primarch is the BAMF. If you play Eldar it's OK to feel the same for a Phoenix lord. The list goes on, it's totally not productive to try to "win" an argument on who is the best of those though IMHO. That's why it's designed this way, you get to decide with your games
IDK maybe it comes with playing for so long, but there seem to be other folks in here that have played just as long as me (early 2nd) but over those years I have been lucky enough to amass quite the collection of armies, so when you read the fluff from one army sitting next to another on the shelf and both lay claim to being to ultimate authority and inhereitor to the galaxy and the number 1 BAMF you kind of have to chuckle and realize each source is pretty biased toward cheer leading you on. And that's OK! Legitimize your fluffs claims through gaming on the table.
Nurglitch wrote: The theology of 40k is what keeps us coming back to it.
The... theology?
The only theology present in 40k is that religion is total self-enslavement and debasement, and that's true for eldar, imperials and chaos alike.
The only ones who don't get hit with that stick are orks (divine anarchy and living only for the moment, only possible by rejecting higher thought) and the necrons, who killed and enslaved their gods. And the a-religious tau and tyranids (though the gsc makes the latter more religious enslavers and debasers)
it's a fair word to use, I know I've compared the primarchs from the HH books as being very much like greek gods. (everything about them is greater, including their flaws)
The emperor may have been a scientific genius but I'd say that, as cultures, necrons and eldar reached greater heights.
I think there's a theory that the eldar gods were created weapons of the aeldari themselves?
kingheff wrote: The emperor may have been a scientific genius but I'd say that, as cultures, necrons and eldar reached greater heights.
I think there's a theory that the eldar gods were created weapons of the aeldari themselves?
This is the case. When the Eldar were fighting the C'tan with the Old Ones they created psychic weapons that later evolved into gods. This is probably why in their myths the Eldar gods seem more coherent and act more like people than the Chaos gods ever do; they were designed rather than having just spontaneously emerged. So yeah, the Emperor might have made some puny flesh and blood 'demigods', but the Eldar created actual warp deities.
kingheff wrote: The emperor may have been a scientific genius but I'd say that, as cultures, necrons and eldar reached greater heights.
I think there's a theory that the eldar gods were created weapons of the aeldari themselves?
This is the case. When the Eldar were fighting the C'tan with the Old Ones they created psychic weapons that later evolved into gods. This is probably why in their myths the Eldar gods seem more coherent and act more like people than the Chaos gods ever do; they were designed rather than having just spontaneously emerged. So yeah, the Emperor might have made some puny flesh and blood 'demigods', but the Eldar created actual warp deities.
maybe but they're NOT the Pheonix Lords. now should the avatar be insanely powerful? hell yeah he should be on par with demon prince angron in terms of power level. or at LEAST a blood thrister. being arguably the same thing (an avatar of a war god)
kingheff wrote: The emperor may have been a scientific genius but I'd say that, as cultures, necrons and eldar reached greater heights.
I think there's a theory that the eldar gods were created weapons of the aeldari themselves?
This is the case. When the Eldar were fighting the C'tan with the Old Ones they created psychic weapons that later evolved into gods. This is probably why in their myths the Eldar gods seem more coherent and act more like people than the Chaos gods ever do; they were designed rather than having just spontaneously emerged. So yeah, the Emperor might have made some puny flesh and blood 'demigods', but the Eldar created actual warp deities.
You mean the Old Ones created the eldar gods when making weapons for them to use, not the primitive eldar randomly made gods while the Old Ones were using the species as tools/cannon fodder in their war. Right?
Else this is probably the biggest random retcon yet.
You mean the Old Ones created the eldar gods when making weapons for them to use, not the primitive eldar randomly made gods while the Old Ones were using the species as tools/cannon fodder in their war. Right?
Else this is probably the biggest random retcon yet.
No, it was the Eldar who created the gods. The Old Ones merely 'encouraged ' them.
Liber Chaotica wrote:"I watched as the First Ones encouraged the younger race to reach further into the other realm, and with their vibrant minds and passionate souls create beings of power to fight the star gods."
TheFleshIsWeak wrote: Regarding the Autarch vs. Exarch debate earlier, am I right in thinking that Eldar didn't used to have Autarchs at all?
I seem to recall them only having Farseers with their melee HQ being the Avatar.
Correct. The Autarch in its current 40K incarnation was only introduced in 4th edition, being introduced as walking the Path of Command sometimes also known as the Path of the Leader.
An interesting thing though is Autarchs are NOT trapped on the Path of Command. How do we know this? Yriel was an Autarch of Iyanden before going corasair. That should not have been possible if he had been trapped on the Path. Therefore the question arises of what one trapped on the Path of Command would be?
I wonder.since the elder are getting an update if the next chapter in the saga will be the update for She-Who-Thirsts, and Primarch and Astartes minions...
Carlovonsexron wrote: I wonder.since the elder are getting an update if the next chapter in the saga will be the update for She-Who-Thirsts, and Primarch and Astartes minions...
I doubt it.
Chaos and in particular Slaanesh has been the recipient of a massive update relatively recently. I suspect Emperor's Children will be on the latter part of this campaign, if at all.
Carlovonsexron wrote: I wonder.since the elder are getting an update if the next chapter in the saga will be the update for She-Who-Thirsts, and Primarch and Astartes minions...
I doubt it.
Chaos and in particular Slaanesh has been the recipient of a massive update relatively recently. I suspect Emperor's Children will be on the latter part of this campaign, if at all.
Slaanesh got a big update but much of it was leaders/heroes in both AoS/40K. The actual troop side didn't get anything new added to it at all; though the fiends got a very nice update. I don't expect them to update deamonettes (the way they are deamonettes, seekers and chariots all interlink very nicely and to update one would require updating them all); but in both games Slaanesh has a very distinct lack of supporting models in anything but the leader category.
Carlovonsexron wrote: I wonder.since the elder are getting an update if the next chapter in the saga will be the update for She-Who-Thirsts, and Primarch and Astartes minions...
I doubt it.
Chaos and in particular Slaanesh has been the recipient of a massive update relatively recently. I suspect Emperor's Children will be on the latter part of this campaign, if at all.
Slaanesh got a big update but much of it was leaders/heroes in both AoS/40K. The actual troop side didn't get anything new added to it at all; though the fiends got a very nice update. I don't expect them to update deamonettes (the way they are deamonettes, seekers and chariots all interlink very nicely and to update one would require updating them all); but in both games Slaanesh has a very distinct lack of supporting models in anything but the leader category.
I disagree, I think Slaanesh has decent representation in all kits.
Regardless, for the reasons above I don't think EC are going to be the focus of this campaign any time soon/if at all.
The release of a Primarch is a campaign unto itself.
Could easily be a few books in perhaps.
But then as the books are jumping all over the place.
It could easily be the rumoured (for it seems no reason at all, or I don’t know where that came from) DA and Fallen book at some point where the next Primarch appears.
It’s too early/random to link an assumption of who could drop where, seen as they said it will move about story wise.
megatrons2nd wrote: Does anyone else think the legs on the Howling Banshee could double as Swooping Hawk legs?
I doubt it, GW seems to have swung from complicated dual use kits to even more complicated mono-pose plastics with no options and no possibility of conversion.
Noise Marines are a resin upgrade kit converted from the original metal upgrade kit made for Chaos Marines that are no longer available.
There are no dedicated Slaaneshi cultists or Traitor Guard.
Only Slaaneshi Daemons are complete and in plastic.
Nurgle has decent representation, Tzeentch has decent representation, and undivided Chaos has decent representation. Slaanesh, not so much.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Regardless, for the reasons above I don't think EC are going to be the focus of this campaign any time soon/if at all.
The release of a Primarch is a campaign unto itself.
Probably, if by campaign you mean campaign book. There is the narrative connection between Slaanesh and Eldar, but with the Ynnari stirring the pot there's plenty of material for a single book by simply covering all the different Eldar factions without any outside factions.
I very much doubt that any situation introduced for the Eldar as a race will spill outside Phoenix Rising in any meaningful way, though. The following Psychic Awakening books will have a different focus, and there's no reason they couldn't be about Fulgrim, or Angron, or Ghazghkull, or the Silent King, or whatever.
BrianDavion wrote: if fulgrim was getting a release they would have lead with that I imagine.
Failbaddon came with the last Vigilus book. Girlyman came with the last Gathering Storm book. I don't think GW feels any need to lead with these big characters and introduces them with what they think has the best narrative impact.
Noise Marines are a resin upgrade kit converted from the original metal upgrade kit made for Chaos Marines that are no longer available.
There are no dedicated Slaaneshi cultists or Traitor Guard.
Only Slaaneshi Daemons are complete and in plastic.
Nurgle has decent representation, Tzeentch has decent representation, and undivided Chaos has decent representation. Slaanesh, not so much.
Well you mean Emperor's Children hasn't got decent representation but for me Slaanesh daemons are fine and, as mentioned above, have just received a substantial release. CSM also received new models and Emperors Children are ultimately CSM.
I just can't see it and I think other factions deserve the focus now.
Probably, if by campaign you mean campaign book. There is the narrative connection between Slaanesh and Eldar, but with the Ynnari stirring the pot there's plenty of material for a single book by simply covering all the different Eldar factions without any outside factions.
I very much doubt that any situation introduced for the Eldar as a race will spill outside Phoenix Rising in any meaningful way, though. The following Psychic Awakening books will have a different focus, and there's no reason they couldn't be about Fulgrim, or Angron, or Ghazghkull, or the Silent King, or whatever.
With regards Fulgrim I think its very unlikely he is released during this campaign but I take your point that its entirely possible given how other primarchs have released.
Still though, with the recent focus on Chaos (Slaanesh Daemons and CSM general) this is why I believe it's unlikely.
Failbaddon came with the last Vigilus book. Girlyman came with the last Gathering Storm book. I don't think GW feels any need to lead with these big characters and introduces them with what they think has the best narrative impact.
True, they are more the Grand Finale of each campaign than anything else. That said I do wish they would pick up the pace a bit. I don't really feel like waiting 20 more years to be the last one to get their Primarch.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Well you mean Emperor's Children hasn't got decent representation but for me Slaanesh daemons are fine and, as mentioned above, have just received a substantial release.
And from what I've seen, no one's talking about Slaaneshi Daemons. They're talking about Slaaneshi mortals, which would cover both the AoS side of things (so Slaaneshi units akin to Tzaangors, or Blood Reavers and so on) and the 40k side of things (full EC releases like the 1KSons and Death Guard got). Yes, Daemons are complete (except for a standard plastic Herald), but that's not really in question.
Well EC are a sub-sub faction..... (humour intended)
Chaos- Chaos Marines - Emperors Children - (yeah I know - just like all the Marines we have been drowned in over the last few months)
Fulgrim would be a cool release though and Slaanesh being the big enemy of the Eldar would be a nice counterpoint with perhaps a full Lost and the Damned Codex
But lets face it its mainly going to be more Marines, lot and lots of Marines - like every month.
Noise Marines are a resin upgrade kit converted from the original metal upgrade kit made for Chaos Marines that are no longer available.
There are no dedicated Slaaneshi cultists or Traitor Guard.
Only Slaaneshi Daemons are complete and in plastic.
Nurgle has decent representation, Tzeentch has decent representation, and undivided Chaos has decent representation. Slaanesh, not so much.
Well you mean Emperor's Children hasn't got decent representation but for me Slaanesh daemons are fine and, as mentioned above, have just received a substantial release. CSM also received new models and Emperors Children are ultimately CSM.
I just can't see it and I think other factions deserve the focus now.
For good or ill each Chaos God has a Space Marine legion in his thrall, and the expectation is that they will get rules and models. Especially now that half of them are already covered. If you want to play mortal followers of a god, the presence of a full line of plastic Daemons does you no good. Nor do the new generic Chaos models that lack the correct wargear, not to mention aesthetics of the faction you want to play.
A lot of factions deserve focus. A lot of those factions could have gotten that focus long ago, too, if Marines didn't get redone so often. Consider, though, that when we're talking specifically about mortal followers of Slaanesh, the last time they got anything in the way of models, so did Battle Sisters. If that's not long enough for you to think of them as deserving focus, I don't know what is.
As for not seeing it, well, I can't say I actually disagree. See below.
Probably, if by campaign you mean campaign book. There is the narrative connection between Slaanesh and Eldar, but with the Ynnari stirring the pot there's plenty of material for a single book by simply covering all the different Eldar factions without any outside factions.
I very much doubt that any situation introduced for the Eldar as a race will spill outside Phoenix Rising in any meaningful way, though. The following Psychic Awakening books will have a different focus, and there's no reason they couldn't be about Fulgrim, or Angron, or Ghazghkull, or the Silent King, or whatever.
With regards Fulgrim I think its very unlikely he is released during this campaign but I take your point that its entirely possible given how other primarchs have released.
Still though, with the recent focus on Chaos (Slaanesh Daemons and CSM general) this is why I believe it's unlikely.
It's a tough one. At times GW makes you think they want Chaos to be a single faction that you merrily mix and use servants of one god to cover the weaknesses of servants of another god. At other times they make rules and models for subfactions that can then stand on their own and will be advertised accordingly, even getting their own (unnecessary) codex.
That's why I'm generally cautious about predictions and prefer to not rule something out if there is a chance, because you never know which way GW is leaning at that moment.
You would think so heavy a focus as Nurgle got two years ago was not going to happen, but then it did and a lot of people were sick of it only halfway through. Slaanesh should get so lucky.
A lot of people thought that with how Nurgle and Tzeentch got releases for AoS and 40k, with it being Slaanesh's turn in AoS now that would herald something for 40k as well. Then again, a lot of people also expected models for mortal followers in AoS, and look how that turned out.
I don't actually expect noteworthy Slaanesh releases in the near future, but like I said, I think GW's Chaos release plans lack serious direction and I can't rule it out either.
Failbaddon came with the last Vigilus book. Girlyman came with the last Gathering Storm book. I don't think GW feels any need to lead with these big characters and introduces them with what they think has the best narrative impact.
True, they are more the Grand Finale of each campaign than anything else. That said I do wish they would pick up the pace a bit. I don't really feel like waiting 20 more years to be the last one to get their Primarch.
It's probably my biggest complaint about GW's release schedule. They're not even trying to get everyone on the same level and are happy to let factions rot instead of trying to give fans of that faction at least a little bit.
kingheff wrote: The emperor may have been a scientific genius but I'd say that, as cultures, necrons and eldar reached greater heights.
I think there's a theory that the eldar gods were created weapons of the aeldari themselves?
This is the case. When the Eldar were fighting the C'tan with the Old Ones they created psychic weapons that later evolved into gods. This is probably why in their myths the Eldar gods seem more coherent and act more like people than the Chaos gods ever do; they were designed rather than having just spontaneously emerged. So yeah, the Emperor might have made some puny flesh and blood 'demigods', but the Eldar created actual warp deities.
maybe but they're NOT the Pheonix Lords. now should the avatar be insanely powerful? hell yeah he should be on par with demon prince angron in terms of power level. or at LEAST a blood thrister. being arguably the same thing (an avatar of a war god)
Fulgrim killed an Avatar of Khaine, so I wouldn't go as far as daemon primarch Angron, but yes an Avatar is comparable enough to a Primarch which makes them comparable to a Greater Daemon.
Knowing the lore, an Avatar would just be a benchmark to establish the power level of coolness of DP Angron.
Fulgrim killed an Avatar of Khaine, so I wouldn't go as far as daemon primarch Angron, but yes an Avatar is comparable enough to a Primarch which makes them comparable to a Greater Daemon.
Knowing the lore, an Avatar would just be a benchmark to establish the power level of coolness of DP Angron.
I thought it was a Wraithlord that Fulgrim killed rather than an Avatar? In one of the early Horus Heresy novels. Was a few years ago that I read it so could be mistaken, or was this a separate incident?
Fulgrim killed an Avatar of Khaine, so I wouldn't go as far as daemon primarch Angron, but yes an Avatar is comparable enough to a Primarch which makes them comparable to a Greater Daemon.
Knowing the lore, an Avatar would just be a benchmark to establish the power level of coolness of DP Angron.
I thought it was a Wraithlord that Fulgrim killed rather than an Avatar? In one of the early Horus Heresy novels. Was a few years ago that I read it so could be mistaken, or was this a separate incident?
Definitely an Avatar of Khaine in the titular novel (Fulgrim) - he distracts it by throwing his sword up in the air before punching and choking it to death.
Fulgrim killed an Avatar of Khaine, so I wouldn't go as far as daemon primarch Angron, but yes an Avatar is comparable enough to a Primarch which makes them comparable to a Greater Daemon.
Knowing the lore, an Avatar would just be a benchmark to establish the power level of coolness of DP Angron.
I thought it was a Wraithlord that Fulgrim killed rather than an Avatar? In one of the early Horus Heresy novels. Was a few years ago that I read it so could be mistaken, or was this a separate incident?
Definitely an Avatar of Khaine in the titular novel (Fulgrim) - he distracts it by throwing his sword up in the air before punching and choking it to death.
Fulgrim killed an Avatar of Khaine, so I wouldn't go as far as daemon primarch Angron, but yes an Avatar is comparable enough to a Primarch which makes them comparable to a Greater Daemon.
Knowing the lore, an Avatar would just be a benchmark to establish the power level of coolness of DP Angron.
I thought it was a Wraithlord that Fulgrim killed rather than an Avatar? In one of the early Horus Heresy novels. Was a few years ago that I read it so could be mistaken, or was this a separate incident?
Definitely an Avatar of Khaine in the titular novel (Fulgrim) - he distracts it by throwing his sword up in the air before punching and choking it to death.
How do you punch and choke a living metal statue?
That’s easy.
You use your spear to undo its ankle spout, then retreat to a safe distance.
Fulgrim killed an Avatar of Khaine, so I wouldn't go as far as daemon primarch Angron, but yes an Avatar is comparable enough to a Primarch which makes them comparable to a Greater Daemon.
Knowing the lore, an Avatar would just be a benchmark to establish the power level of coolness of DP Angron.
I thought it was a Wraithlord that Fulgrim killed rather than an Avatar? In one of the early Horus Heresy novels. Was a few years ago that I read it so could be mistaken, or was this a separate incident?
Definitely an Avatar of Khaine in the titular novel (Fulgrim) - he distracts it by throwing his sword up in the air before punching and choking it to death.
At this point an avatar is nowhere near a greater daemon. It's a glorified daemon prince with a meltagun sword until he decides to rerelease it as a giant knight sized 450pt lord of war that still somehow loses to every named character of every faction (like all other greater daemons do anyway)
You know you're in for a cool tension-filled setting when the following races have revival mechanics built in for their named characters:
-Nids
-Necrons
-Drukhari
-Chaos (daemon and marine)
And the following races don't
-Guard
-SM -Tau
-eEldar
Hmmm wonder who gw is setting up to win every fight in the more.
Fulgrim killed an Avatar of Khaine, so I wouldn't go as far as daemon primarch Angron, but yes an Avatar is comparable enough to a Primarch which makes them comparable to a Greater Daemon.
Knowing the lore, an Avatar would just be a benchmark to establish the power level of coolness of DP Angron.
I thought it was a Wraithlord that Fulgrim killed rather than an Avatar? In one of the early Horus Heresy novels. Was a few years ago that I read it so could be mistaken, or was this a separate incident?
Definitely an Avatar of Khaine in the titular novel (Fulgrim) - he distracts it by throwing his sword up in the air before punching and choking it to death.
Fulgrim does kill a Wraithlord first, but a little bit later he then kills a Avatar.
the_scotsman wrote: At this point an avatar is nowhere near a greater daemon. It's a glorified daemon prince with a meltagun sword until he decides to rerelease it as a giant knight sized 450pt lord of war that still somehow loses to every named character of every faction (like all other greater daemons do anyway)
You know you're in for a cool tension-filled setting when the following races have revival mechanics built in for their named characters:
-Nids
-Necrons
-Drukhari
-Chaos (daemon and marine)
And the following races don't
-Guard
-SM -Tau
-eEldar
Hmmm wonder who gw is setting up to win every fight in the more.
Perhaps nowadays but he is still using a dated miniature, the same could be said of the Keeper of Secrets until the new plastic kit was released.
The Avatar of Khaine needs a new plastic kit to be brought back in line to where he should be which is going toe to toe with a Bloodthirster just like back in 2nd edition when he was literally the toughest thing in the game.
To be fair Craftworld Eldar have 2 ways of reviving different characters in the form of The Avatar (via 3 command points) and an Artifact (Phoenix Gem).
the_scotsman wrote: Hmmm wonder who gw is setting up to win every fight in the more.
Space Marines.
Beyond Guard and other Imperial groups, all the other races are NPC races. They exist to die in stories.
Unfortunately true.
It really does feel like the current design team has no ideas when it comes to anything that's not marine.
I wasn't aware genestealer cults, Knights, and the admech, of of whom have gotten a release in the last year, where Marines.
Obviously someone had gotten repeative mental strain form the tedium of endless Marine releass and did something else before he was slapped back into line.
the_scotsman wrote: Hmmm wonder who gw is setting up to win every fight in the more.
Space Marines.
Beyond Guard and other Imperial groups, all the other races are NPC races. They exist to die in stories.
Unfortunately true.
It really does feel like the current design team has no ideas when it comes to anything that's not marine.
As for the current focus on marines, well, I get why they try to make marines (actual infantry marines) appealing in 40k again. And I get why they wanted to ad a load of new miniatures to the most popular Faction.
I think the popularity of the Horus Heresy soap opera has proven its not worth to give the non marines to much focus (unless its titans ).
the_scotsman wrote: Hmmm wonder who gw is setting up to win every fight in the more.
Space Marines.
Beyond Guard and other Imperial groups, all the other races are NPC races. They exist to die in stories.
Unfortunately true.
It really does feel like the current design team has no ideas when it comes to anything that's not marine.
I wasn't aware genestealer cults, Knights, and the admech, of of whom have gotten a release in the last year, where Marines.
Pretty sure that's not what he meant.
Yeah I'm talking about in-lore here.
All the obviously "evil aesthetic" factions in 40k have built-in systems in place such that their named characters can die and still be sold as miniatures by Games Workshop PLC. The "Good aesthetic" factions do not (Except for Saint Celestine, which rightfully earns her the reputation of the good character what gets killed when you need to establish a baddie is a badass). That sets up an obvious hierarchy of "who will win" when looking at in-lore fights.
Tier the Lowest: Any un-named character. "The tyranid swarm totes mcgotes killed like a dozen chapter masters. Chapter Master Steve Johnson of the Blood Whanglers! Chapter master Swazzle Brognole of the Blood avengers! The Whole Blood Knights chapter was wiped out - not the blood knights, beloved fan favorite!"
Tier the Middle: Any evil named character.
Tier the can lose but only non-fatally: any good named character.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Well you mean Emperor's Children hasn't got decent representation but for me Slaanesh daemons are fine and, as mentioned above, have just received a substantial release.
And from what I've seen, no one's talking about Slaaneshi Daemons. They're talking about Slaaneshi mortals, which would cover both the AoS side of things (so Slaaneshi units akin to Tzaangors, or Blood Reavers and so on) and the 40k side of things (full EC releases like the 1KSons and Death Guard got). Yes, Daemons are complete (except for a standard plastic Herald), but that's not really in question.
???
Overread wrote: Slaanesh got a big update but much of it was leaders/heroes in both AoS/40K. The actual troop side didn't get anything new added to it at all; though the fiends got a very nice update. I don't expect them to update deamonettes (the way they are deamonettes, seekers and chariots all interlink very nicely and to update one would require updating them all); but in both games Slaanesh has a very distinct lack of supporting models in anything but the leader category.
I think those who collect EC are also veryl likely collect Slaanesh daemons or at least have a few Slaanesh daemon units in their collection. So those players, from a marketing perspective are not going to be the focus for a while because they have likely spent their hobby money/disposable income on the Slaanesh daemons models released recently.
It's hard to say that other factions need more focus when we're talking about a faction that hasn't had any focus on a long time (EC).
My faction has never had a focus in that case. I don't play Orks, I play Evil Sunz. Where's my codex and unique models at? Surely those sub factions that have never had anything deserve something first?
Cato Sicirus at Damnos comes to mind immediatly as a named Marine char whose been defeated.
The fact that your "gotcha nerd" example here of some, any, space marine character of significance suffering even a non-fatal defeat (And winning the battle by blowing up the planet anyway lol) came from the time before Necron lore got retconned three game editions ago should tell you something about how much of a useful counter-point that is.
Cato Sicirus at Damnos comes to mind immediatly as a named Marine char whose been defeated.
The fact that your "gotcha nerd" example here of some, any, space marine character of significance suffering even a non-fatal defeat (And winning the battle by blowing up the planet anyway lol) came from the time before Necron lore got retconned three game editions ago should tell you something about how much of a useful counter-point that is.
Yah Cato's defeat was actually a crushing victory by the time the story was finished. Does anyone else remember the time Cato took a vortex grenade pass from Marneus through the Necron defense and sank a three pointer winning the game with 0.0001 seconds left on the clock? Because I do and I hated it lol.
Cato Sicirus at Damnos comes to mind immediatly as a named Marine char whose been defeated.
The fact that your "gotcha nerd" example here of some, any, space marine character of significance suffering even a non-fatal defeat (And winning the battle by blowing up the planet anyway lol) came from the time before Necron lore got retconned three game editions ago should tell you something about how much of a useful counter-point that is.
Yah Cato's defeat was actually a crushing victory by the time the story was finished. Does anyone else remember the time Cato took a vortex grenade pass from Marneus through the Necron defense and sank a three pointer winning the game with 0.0001 seconds left on the clock? Because I do and I hated it lol.
It's almost like Abandon didn't put Calgar in the hospital in the last campaign book, but I guess that a "gotcha nerd" example
Cato Sicirus at Damnos comes to mind immediatly as a named Marine char whose been defeated.
The fact that your "gotcha nerd" example here of some, any, space marine character of significance suffering even a non-fatal defeat (And winning the battle by blowing up the planet anyway lol) came from the time before Necron lore got retconned three game editions ago should tell you something about how much of a useful counter-point that is.
Yah Cato's defeat was actually a crushing victory by the time the story was finished. Does anyone else remember the time Cato took a vortex grenade pass from Marneus through the Necron defense and sank a three pointer winning the game with 0.0001 seconds left on the clock? Because I do and I hated it lol.
It's almost like Abandon didn't put Calgar in the hospital in the last campaign book, but I guess that a "gotcha nerd" example
Calgar was still suffering from the injuries he sustained getting crushed by the door Guilliman slammed open before yelling "I'm HOOOOOOOME!"
The poor guy got flattened like a looney tune. You can't expect him to fight yabbadabba while flat.
I think those who collect EC are also veryl likely collect Slaanesh daemons or at least have a few Slaanesh daemon units in their collection. So those players, from a marketing perspective are not going to be the focus for a while because they have likely spent their hobby money/disposable income on the Slaanesh daemons models released recently.
You do realise that for Thousand Sons and Death Guard the daemons in their codex actually break their rules if included as anything other than summons? If they're taken in any other manner they're taken under the Chaos Daemons book and faction.
So what you're actually saying is "because you have a small chaos Daemons force and some generic chaos marine releases, you don't need kits or models for your own subfaction". Maybe Evil Sunz deserve a book or release as well, although I think you'd be hard pressed to tell me what different untis etc they have compared to the existing Ork list, where as Emperors Children has clearly defined differences and well laid out fluff detailing this. Hell, even if they gave them a plastic noise marine kit, that would be fair.
I think those who collect EC are also veryl likely collect Slaanesh daemons or at least have a few Slaanesh daemon units in their collection. So those players, from a marketing perspective are not going to be the focus for a while because they have likely spent their hobby money/disposable income on the Slaanesh daemons models released recently.
You do realise that for Thousand Sons and Death Guard the daemons in their codex actually break their rules if included as anything other than summons? If they're taken in any other manner they're taken under the Chaos Daemons book and faction.
So what you're actually saying is "because you have a small chaos Daemons force and some generic chaos marine releases, you don't need kits or models for your own subfaction". Maybe Evil Sunz deserve a book or release as well, although I think you'd be hard pressed to tell me what different untis etc they have compared to the existing Ork list, where as Emperors Children has clearly defined differences and well laid out fluff detailing this. Hell, even if they gave them a plastic noise marine kit, that would be fair.
I remember the "focus" article for EC when the 2.0 codex was released. They used it to preveiw havocs and gave an embarresed explanation that the old resin upgrade actually fit the new marines kit. No, I dont think the new daemons was enough to make the EC players feel content and acknowledged.
Cato Sicirus at Damnos comes to mind immediatly as a named Marine char whose been defeated.
The fact that your "gotcha nerd" example here of some, any, space marine character of significance suffering even a non-fatal defeat (And winning the battle by blowing up the planet anyway lol) came from the time before Necron lore got retconned three game editions ago should tell you something about how much of a useful counter-point that is.
Yah Cato's defeat was actually a crushing victory by the time the story was finished. Does anyone else remember the time Cato took a vortex grenade pass from Marneus through the Necron defense and sank a three pointer winning the game with 0.0001 seconds left on the clock? Because I do and I hated it lol.
It's almost like Abandon didn't put Calgar in the hospital in the last campaign book, but I guess that a "gotcha nerd" example
But he didn't lose fam?
The imperium still holds Vigilus despite the "insurmountable odds" and the defeat Marneus suffered was actually just as planned tm was it not?
No, the Imperium decided to suicide bomb Horus' ship, whose captain then tried save his ass by jumping into the warp.
Abbaddon and Haarken thought the guy was actually trying to steal the ship and went after it. They wasted about two minutes discussing the thing and then left Calgar lying there instead of taking thirty seconds or so to stick a krak grenade into his armor before leaving. or you know, Abbaddon going after his daddy's ship while Haarken finishes off the chapter master of the Ultramarines.
Calgar did get crushed pretty hard though.
So what you're actually saying is "because you have a small chaos Daemons force and some generic chaos marine releases, you don't need kits or models for your own subfaction".
You can make the daemons element as big or as little if you like.
No, what I'm saying is that I'll have some sympathy for your cause when my subfaction has its own specific models and rules also.
I'm also saying that I think its very unlikely GW release more Chaos marines (but this time in pink!!) when they just released a ton of chaos marines in black.
Maybe Evil Sunz deserve a book or release as well, although I think you'd be hard pressed to tell me what different untis etc they have compared to the existing Ork list, where as Emperors Children has clearly defined differences and well laid out fluff detailing this. Hell, even if they gave them a plastic noise marine kit, that would be fair.
If EC, WE, DG and TS deserve a book, Evil Sunz or Speed Freeks (however you want to slice it) absolutely deserve a book. Their play style should be completely different to other Ork clans. They are also functionally the same thing as any other sub faction. I'm not trying to advocate for special treatment here by the way, just the same treatment for my faction that SM and CSM enjoy. I'd like this for all factions too. Not just mine.
Further there are plenty of unique models they could have, here's an idea to start - how about the 5 or so bike character models we lost to legends? Why don't GW take 5 minutes away from writing the same marine on marine fiction they've done for decades to give other sub factions a bit of a fluff focus?
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Jidmah wrote: No, the Imperium decided to suicide bomb Horus' ship, whose captain then tried save his ass by jumping into the warp.
Abbaddon and Haarken thought the guy was actually trying to steal the ship and went after it. They wasted about two minutes discussing the thing and then left Calgar lying there instead of taking thirty seconds or so to stick a krak grenade into his armor before leaving. or you know, Abbaddon going after his daddy's ship while Haarken finishes off the chapter master of the Ultramarines.
Calgar did get crushed pretty hard though.
That's what I mean sorry. It was Calgar's plan was it not?
Like he knew he would get a whooping and he was just trying to stall. Which is exactly what he did.
So even when the hero tier marines lose, it's on purpose
So what you're actually saying is "because you have a small chaos Daemons force and some generic chaos marine releases, you don't need kits or models for your own subfaction".
You can make the daemons element as big or as little if you like.
No, what I'm saying is that I'll have some sympathy for your cause when my subfaction has its own specific models and rules also.
I'm also saying that I think its very unlikely GW release more Chaos marines (but this time in pink!!) when they just released a ton of chaos marines in black.
Maybe Evil Sunz deserve a book or release as well, although I think you'd be hard pressed to tell me what different untis etc they have compared to the existing Ork list, where as Emperors Children has clearly defined differences and well laid out fluff detailing this. Hell, even if they gave them a plastic noise marine kit, that would be fair.
If EC, WE, DG and TS deserve a book, Evil Sunz or Speed Freeks (however you want to slice it) absolutely deserve a book. Their play style should be completely different to other Ork clans. They are also functionally the same thing as any other sub faction. I'm not trying to advocate for special treatment here by the way, just the same treatment for my faction that SM and CSM enjoy. I'd like this for all factions too. Not just mine.
Further there are plenty of unique models they could have, here's an idea to start - how about the 5 or so bike character models we lost to legends? Why don't GW take 5 minutes away from writing the same marine on marine fiction they've done for decades to give other sub factions a bit of a fluff focus?
I'm more than happy for them to get supplements, slap out a £20 60 page book of fluff, a couple of hqs and novelty speed rules and done. That's a fair supplement.
What emperors children need is a complete codex with kit support. Speed freakz are a sub faction of orks, emperors children should be a full faction.
I dont have a horse in this race fyi, I do have chaos marines but have played red corsairs for the last few years. So my level of support is the same as the ork klans at this stage
So what you're actually saying is "because you have a small chaos Daemons force and some generic chaos marine releases, you don't need kits or models for your own subfaction".
You can make the daemons element as big or as little if you like.
No, what I'm saying is that I'll have some sympathy for your cause when my subfaction has its own specific models and rules also.
I'm also saying that I think its very unlikely GW release more Chaos marines (but this time in pink!!) when they just released a ton of chaos marines in black.
Maybe Evil Sunz deserve a book or release as well, although I think you'd be hard pressed to tell me what different untis etc they have compared to the existing Ork list, where as Emperors Children has clearly defined differences and well laid out fluff detailing this. Hell, even if they gave them a plastic noise marine kit, that would be fair.
If EC, WE, DG and TS deserve a book, Evil Sunz or Speed Freeks (however you want to slice it) absolutely deserve a book. Their play style should be completely different to other Ork clans. They are also functionally the same thing as any other sub faction. I'm not trying to advocate for special treatment here by the way, just the same treatment for my faction that SM and CSM enjoy. I'd like this for all factions too. Not just mine.
Further there are plenty of unique models they could have, here's an idea to start - how about the 5 or so bike character models we lost to legends? Why don't GW take 5 minutes away from writing the same marine on marine fiction they've done for decades to give other sub factions a bit of a fluff focus?
I'm more than happy for them to get supplements, slap out a £20 60 page book of fluff, a couple of hqs and novelty speed rules and done. That's a fair supplement.
What emperors children need is a complete codex with kit support. Speed freakz are a sub faction of orks, emperors children should be a full faction.
I dont have a horse in this race fyi, I do have chaos marines but have played red corsairs for the last few years. So my level of support is the same as the ork klans at this stage
I dont doubt the EC will get a release sooner rather than later.
With a great stonking huge four armed snake Fulgrim and a musical menagerie.
So what you're actually saying is "because you have a small chaos Daemons force and some generic chaos marine releases, you don't need kits or models for your own subfaction".
You can make the daemons element as big or as little if you like.
No, what I'm saying is that I'll have some sympathy for your cause when my subfaction has its own specific models and rules also.
I'm also saying that I think its very unlikely GW release more Chaos marines (but this time in pink!!) when they just released a ton of chaos marines in black.
Maybe Evil Sunz deserve a book or release as well, although I think you'd be hard pressed to tell me what different untis etc they have compared to the existing Ork list, where as Emperors Children has clearly defined differences and well laid out fluff detailing this. Hell, even if they gave them a plastic noise marine kit, that would be fair.
If EC, WE, DG and TS deserve a book, Evil Sunz or Speed Freeks (however you want to slice it) absolutely deserve a book. Their play style should be completely different to other Ork clans. They are also functionally the same thing as any other sub faction. I'm not trying to advocate for special treatment here by the way, just the same treatment for my faction that SM and CSM enjoy. I'd like this for all factions too. Not just mine.
Further there are plenty of unique models they could have, here's an idea to start - how about the 5 or so bike character models we lost to legends? Why don't GW take 5 minutes away from writing the same marine on marine fiction they've done for decades to give other sub factions a bit of a fluff focus?
I'm more than happy for them to get supplements, slap out a £20 60 page book of fluff, a couple of hqs and novelty speed rules and done. That's a fair supplement.
What emperors children need is a complete codex with kit support. Speed freakz are a sub faction of orks, emperors children should be a full faction.
I dont have a horse in this race fyi, I do have chaos marines but have played red corsairs for the last few years. So my level of support is the same as the ork klans at this stage
This is going way off topic now but there is absolutely no reason that EC deserve a full codex and not any other sub faction. EC, as far as I'm concerned, are simply Slaanesh worshipping Chaos marines with a penchant for noise. Is that their only unique unit? The noise marine? You want them to have an entire codex for that and Fulgrim? If your response is "no AAE they should have new models bruuu" then I ask why should that be any different to another sub faction?
While I really like the Klaivex and I'll probably be getting plastic Incubii I have to say that it's not been worth a weeks wait for that. especially when GW obviously still prefer trying to sell Marines with their five different articles on marines.
I look forwards to another week of us arguing about the lore of Eldar though.
pm713 wrote: While I really like the Klaivex and I'll probably be getting plastic Incubii I have to say that it's not been worth a weeks wait for that. especially when GW obviously still prefer trying to sell Marines with their five different articles on marines.
Agreed. This campaign is going to take an eternity if this is their pace. Since this first campaign book is focused on Eldar vs Eldar action it's going to be even longer before we see anything that isn't a space elf. Lame.
I wonder what next week is? Jain Zar? Vect?! Jain Vect?! Vect Zar?! I guess Jain Zar but I would love it if it's literally anything else just to throw us off. Ideally a new Avatar model.
I do tend to agree that Games Workshop is spreading these announcements out too thin. The reason for it, in my eye, is stir up variety in their release schedule in the upcoming months.
So what you're actually saying is "because you have a small chaos Daemons force and some generic chaos marine releases, you don't need kits or models for your own subfaction".
You can make the daemons element as big or as little if you like.
No, what I'm saying is that I'll have some sympathy for your cause when my subfaction has its own specific models and rules also.
I'm also saying that I think its very unlikely GW release more Chaos marines (but this time in pink!!) when they just released a ton of chaos marines in black.
Maybe Evil Sunz deserve a book or release as well, although I think you'd be hard pressed to tell me what different untis etc they have compared to the existing Ork list, where as Emperors Children has clearly defined differences and well laid out fluff detailing this. Hell, even if they gave them a plastic noise marine kit, that would be fair.
If EC, WE, DG and TS deserve a book, Evil Sunz or Speed Freeks (however you want to slice it) absolutely deserve a book. Their play style should be completely different to other Ork clans. They are also functionally the same thing as any other sub faction. I'm not trying to advocate for special treatment here by the way, just the same treatment for my faction that SM and CSM enjoy. I'd like this for all factions too. Not just mine.
Further there are plenty of unique models they could have, here's an idea to start - how about the 5 or so bike character models we lost to legends? Why don't GW take 5 minutes away from writing the same marine on marine fiction they've done for decades to give other sub factions a bit of a fluff focus?
I'm more than happy for them to get supplements, slap out a £20 60 page book of fluff, a couple of hqs and novelty speed rules and done. That's a fair supplement.
What emperors children need is a complete codex with kit support. Speed freakz are a sub faction of orks, emperors children should be a full faction.
I dont have a horse in this race fyi, I do have chaos marines but have played red corsairs for the last few years. So my level of support is the same as the ork klans at this stage
This is going way off topic now but there is absolutely no reason that EC deserve a full codex and not any other sub faction. EC, as far as I'm concerned, are simply Slaanesh worshipping Chaos marines with a penchant for noise. Is that their only unique unit? The noise marine? You want them to have an entire codex for that and Fulgrim? If your response is "no AAE they should have new models bruuu" then I ask why should that be any different to another sub faction?
Parity. Death guard and thousand sons are as divergent fluff wise as emperors children. Currently you would have capacity for:
Fulgrim
Lucius
Doomrider
Noise marines
Fabius Bile
Kakophoni (heavy sonic weapons)
The reject experiment marines
Sonic dreads
Subjugators could be repurposed into here
Plus any shared units.
All previous existing kits or entries, what speed freaks units are missing?
On topic, it's about time the rest of the dark eldar range got fleshed out in plastic.
An Actual Englishman wrote: This is going way off topic now but there is absolutely no reason that EC deserve a full codex and not any other sub faction. EC, as far as I'm concerned, are simply Slaanesh worshipping Chaos marines with a penchant for noise. Is that their only unique unit? The noise marine? You want them to have an entire codex for that and Fulgrim? If your response is "no AAE they should have new models bruuu" then I ask why should that be any different to another sub faction?
It's a fair question. Putting aside real-world economic reasons why the DG and TS got their own codexes, the fluff basically says that they need their own codexes because they are substantially different in structure and operation from the other Traitor Legions. The EC apparently aren't, since they're included in the generic Chaos Space Marines codex. That being said, if GW wants to give them a full codex with a new model range, I could see the argument being that as Fulgrim (or Angron for the WE) takes a more active hand, he reforms the Legion to his liking, away from the more "standard" Black Legion model. Otherwise, it'll be interesting to see how GW rolls out Fulgrim if the EC don't get a full codex.
To tie it back into Psychic Awakening, I do wonder if we're going to see a new Primarch or Daemon Primarch come out of this. I'd have to think that it'd be Fulgrim if it's a Daemon Primarch (much as my heart wishes it was Lorgar; the Word Bearers could use the help).
EDIT - Actually, I think what I'd first like to see is some mechanic for preventing Daemon Primarchs from getting tabled on turn 1 from long-range fire (at least for Magnus and Mortarion; Fulgrim presumably would have access to a Dark Apostle who could offer some first turn protection).
Man, that model's arms are RIIIIIIGHT where I want to see on the model. Right on top of the torso join, if there is one.
I am so glad he's not pulling a triple-axle ollie kickflip off of a curved distinctive piece of eldar masonry, and instead has a simple, easily convertible pose that if you were not so inclined would not make all your squad look silly and identical.
A man can dream about torsos compatible with the rest of the drukhari range, though, a man can dream.... Think how many conversions you could pull with the Raider passenger legs, the Hellion two-handed weapon bits, and that demiklaive.
COOOOL Incubi, i literally don't care as a DE player, i'd rather have more HQ options and a way to mix detachments some new traits for mix detachments, etc..
I don't play Eldar and I don't plan to, but I am glad to see them getting new plastics.
Maybe this Psychic Awakening is (at least) partly an "excuse" to push out some Xeno plastics to replace the remaining Failcast models still in lines?
I'd like that, since I'd rather throw the resin Necron characters I have in the garbage and buy some plastic ones rather than waste an irreplaceable portion of my life trying to make them into an acceptable models.
Looks pretty good for the most part, and you can count me in among the group of people who are happy that he isn't backflipping off of some piece of masonry.
That being said, his head looks way too big. Like, it's the size of his whole torso. Hopefully the other heads in the kit are more reasonably sized.
H wrote: I don't play Eldar and I don't plan to, but I am glad to see them getting new plastics.
Maybe this Psychic Awakening is (at least) partly an "excuse" to push out some Xeno plastics to replace the remaining Failcast models still in lines?
I'd like that, since I'd rather throw the resin Necron characters I have in the garbage and buy some plastic ones rather than waste an irreplaceable portion of my life trying to make them into an acceptable models.
That’s 100% what the campaigns are for.
Excuse to do new models outside of a Codex. And sell a book with it.
And be able to spread stuff round to various factions.
I do find it off that the banshee exarch was teased with gear options, abilities and insane damage output and this guy is basically ripped straight from the index. Hopefully there is more to come but at the very least I am glad the incubi are getting a plastic kit.
Red Corsair wrote: I do find it off that the banshee exarch was teased with gear options, abilities and insane damage output and this guy is basically ripped straight from the index. Hopefully there is more to come but at the very least I am glad the incubi are getting a plastic kit.
Yeah its a bit crap......as you say hopefully new rules for a new model.
Red Corsair wrote: I do find it off that the banshee exarch was teased with gear options, abilities and insane damage output and this guy is basically ripped straight from the index. Hopefully there is more to come but at the very least I am glad the incubi are getting a plastic kit.
yeah. In the era of Primaris Marines and other super-super-duper elite infantry like Bullgryns/Custodes/Grotesques, it's pretty odd to have a special weapon that is a choice between:
3A S4 AP-3 D1
5A S3 AP-2 D1
I can tweak my damage output 10% in favor of guardsmen vs basic marine tactical troops, coolcoolcool, hopefully nothing has an invuln save to make the single klaive option not useful at all.
Part of it is definitely the older tier of "Warrior elite" troops losing their luster compared to the new breed of 45ppm hyper-elite infantry. For all I know, they give incubi a stat tweak and they wind up not a bad little unit. but I do hope they don't release six exarch powers for banshees and then the klaivex doesn't get any lol.
If they're getting a whole kit though, there's got to be options they're keeping close to their chest. What else would be on the sprue otherwise?
Imateria wrote: Saddly the Demi-klaives profile is unchanged, meaning they're still worthless pieces of crap.
Yeah, I was going to comment about this. What is even the point of the second profile? Might as well have the option to swap out the Klaive for a French loaf.
Also, the Banshee Exarch get 6 completely new powers to choose from whilst the Klaivex doesn't even get a fix to his garbage weapon. Glad to see that the preferential treatment for Craftwords remains strong as ever.
Amishprn86 wrote: COOOOL Incubi, i literally don't care as a DE player, i'd rather have more HQ options and a way to mix detachments some new traits for mix detachments, etc..
Also this.
I really don't want the only models DE get this decade to just be more plastic remakes of finecast models.
Das_Ubermike wrote: Looks pretty good for the most part, and you can count me in among the group of people who are happy that he isn't backflipping off of some piece of masonry..
Same.
Though I'd like to know what keeps those armbands standing at a right angle when he's holding his arms stiff.
Other than that, though, glad to see DE plastics. Hope they finally finish that range someday. Only a few kits left...
Imateria wrote: Saddly the Demi-klaives profile is unchanged, meaning they're still worthless pieces of crap.
Yeah, I was going to comment about this. What is even the point of the second profile? Might as well have the option to swap out the Klaive for a French loaf.
Also, the Banshee Exarch get 6 completely new powers to choose from whilst the Klaivex doesn't even get a fix to his garbage weapon. Glad to see that the preferential treatment for Craftwords remains strong as ever.
Amishprn86 wrote: COOOOL Incubi, i literally don't care as a DE player, i'd rather have more HQ options and a way to mix detachments some new traits for mix detachments, etc..
Also this.
I really don't want the only models DE get this decade to just be more plastic remakes of finecast models.
Welcome to the club DE players care for an oblitervirus shake?
But in all seriousness, what's the issue with the weapon? For a non eldar player?
To be fair, Howling Banshees got announced at Nova...so the Exarch was announced after and they probably wanted to have some 'meat' to it beyond just "Here's an Exarch!".
Personally, my fingers are crossed for next week being a Court of the Young King box reveal.
pm713 wrote: Did Incubi ever have their own version of Exarch powers? I doubt GW are going to add them now.
They used to have a few things - like helmit mounted splinter pistols. Given they are a dark mirror of Aspect Warriors and Exarchs - not giving them the smae boost seems extremely lazy.
As someone who doesn't play the game, I like the model and could theoretically see myself buying a box of these guys to accompany my finecast ones. That the rules for the unit make them worthless is of course sad, but not unexpected.
Imateria wrote: Saddly the Demi-klaives profile is unchanged, meaning they're still worthless pieces of crap.
Yeah, I was going to comment about this. What is even the point of the second profile? Might as well have the option to swap out the Klaive for a French loaf.
Also, the Banshee Exarch get 6 completely new powers to choose from whilst the Klaivex doesn't even get a fix to his garbage weapon. Glad to see that the preferential treatment for Craftwords remains strong as ever.
Amishprn86 wrote: COOOOL Incubi, i literally don't care as a DE player, i'd rather have more HQ options and a way to mix detachments some new traits for mix detachments, etc..
Also this.
I really don't want the only models DE get this decade to just be more plastic remakes of finecast models.
Welcome to the club DE players care for an oblitervirus shake?
But in all seriousness, what's the issue with the weapon? For a non eldar player?
Math. Against most targets they're underwhelming and not very good. and the outcome isn't particularly distinct. Kills about 1 ork either way, .84 or .72 of marine and 1.32 or 1.65 guardsmen.
DE just have so many better, cheaper ways of killing enemies
.
It doesn't help that incubi don't get Obsessions, either, while reavers can seriously charge you from halfway across the table. And 8th is unkind in general to non-reaver DE melee units.
Now we are talking, GW. Making all those long forgotten finecrap or metal models into plastic is a step in the right direction.
Very nice model, as well, I like the serious pose and overall design (which is the same as the existing models), I would have preferred the helmets of the old metal models with the new body, but anyway, very good.
Imateria wrote: Saddly the Demi-klaives profile is unchanged, meaning they're still worthless pieces of crap.
Yeah, I was going to comment about this. What is even the point of the second profile? Might as well have the option to swap out the Klaive for a French loaf.
Also, the Banshee Exarch get 6 completely new powers to choose from whilst the Klaivex doesn't even get a fix to his garbage weapon. Glad to see that the preferential treatment for Craftwords remains strong as ever.
Amishprn86 wrote: COOOOL Incubi, i literally don't care as a DE player, i'd rather have more HQ options and a way to mix detachments some new traits for mix detachments, etc..
Also this.
I really don't want the only models DE get this decade to just be more plastic remakes of finecast models.
Welcome to the club DE players care for an oblitervirus shake?
But in all seriousness, what's the issue with the weapon? For a non eldar player?
Math. Against most targets they're underwhelming and not very good. and the outcome isn't particularly distinct. Kills about 1 ork either way, .84 or .72 of marine and 1.32 or 1.65 guardsmen.
DE just have so many better, cheaper ways of killing enemies
.
SO basically the added attack opton is worthless. ?
Wellp.
pm713 wrote: Did Incubi ever have their own version of Exarch powers? I doubt GW are going to add them now.
They used to have a few things - like helmit mounted splinter pistols. Given they are a dark mirror of Aspect Warriors and Exarchs - not giving them the smae boost seems extremely lazy.
Yep, I'm sure the rules that we've seen so far are the entire extent of the rules incubi will receive. It is not likely at all for GW to put any additional options in this brand new plastic kit to encourage existing dark eldar players to buy it.
Imateria wrote: Saddly the Demi-klaives profile is unchanged, meaning they're still worthless pieces of crap.
Yeah, I was going to comment about this. What is even the point of the second profile? Might as well have the option to swap out the Klaive for a French loaf.
Also, the Banshee Exarch get 6 completely new powers to choose from whilst the Klaivex doesn't even get a fix to his garbage weapon. Glad to see that the preferential treatment for Craftwords remains strong as ever.
Amishprn86 wrote: COOOOL Incubi, i literally don't care as a DE player, i'd rather have more HQ options and a way to mix detachments some new traits for mix detachments, etc..
Also this.
I really don't want the only models DE get this decade to just be more plastic remakes of finecast models.
Welcome to the club DE players care for an oblitervirus shake?
But in all seriousness, what's the issue with the weapon? For a non eldar player?
Math. Against most targets they're underwhelming and not very good. and the outcome isn't particularly distinct. Kills about 1 ork either way, .84 or .72 of marine and 1.32 or 1.65 guardsmen.
DE just have so many better, cheaper ways of killing enemies
.
SO basically the added attack opton is worthless. ?
Wellp.
I mean its not, but it makes very little difference in damage against any target that isn't like T5. It kills .88 guardsmen as opposed to .7 for the single blade.
So Incubi are fairly new models especially when compared to Craftworlds stuff. Can we exercise a daring thought that finecast fails to sell and they really really want to replace it?
Imateria wrote: Saddly the Demi-klaives profile is unchanged, meaning they're still worthless pieces of crap.
Yeah, I was going to comment about this. What is even the point of the second profile? Might as well have the option to swap out the Klaive for a French loaf.
Also, the Banshee Exarch get 6 completely new powers to choose from whilst the Klaivex doesn't even get a fix to his garbage weapon. Glad to see that the preferential treatment for Craftwords remains strong as ever.
Amishprn86 wrote: COOOOL Incubi, i literally don't care as a DE player, i'd rather have more HQ options and a way to mix detachments some new traits for mix detachments, etc..
Also this.
I really don't want the only models DE get this decade to just be more plastic remakes of finecast models.
Welcome to the club DE players care for an oblitervirus shake?
But in all seriousness, what's the issue with the weapon? For a non eldar player?
Math. Against most targets they're underwhelming and not very good. and the outcome isn't particularly distinct. Kills about 1 ork either way, .84 or .72 of marine and 1.32 or 1.65 guardsmen.
DE just have so many better, cheaper ways of killing enemies
.
SO basically the added attack opton is worthless. ?
Wellp.
More or less. A unit will kill an extra guardsmen or two, but it also has to get there. With no 'chapter tactics' or special rules to help, and no charging out of an open topped vehicle, which was the de facto delivery method in older editions.
Shadenuat wrote: So Incubi are fairly new models especially when compared to Craftworlds stuff. Can we exercise a daring thought that finecast fails to sell and they really really want to replace it?
Considering they've replaced Finecast pretty consistently and even gotten rid of that branding entirely (It's nowhere on their website anymore IIRC) I think it's safe to say that release was a super-flop.
Imateria wrote: Saddly the Demi-klaives profile is unchanged, meaning they're still worthless pieces of crap.
Yeah, I was going to comment about this. What is even the point of the second profile? Might as well have the option to swap out the Klaive for a French loaf.
Also, the Banshee Exarch get 6 completely new powers to choose from whilst the Klaivex doesn't even get a fix to his garbage weapon. Glad to see that the preferential treatment for Craftwords remains strong as ever.
Amishprn86 wrote: COOOOL Incubi, i literally don't care as a DE player, i'd rather have more HQ options and a way to mix detachments some new traits for mix detachments, etc..
Also this.
I really don't want the only models DE get this decade to just be more plastic remakes of finecast models.
Welcome to the club DE players care for an oblitervirus shake?
But in all seriousness, what's the issue with the weapon? For a non eldar player?
Math. Against most targets they're underwhelming and not very good. and the outcome isn't particularly distinct. Kills about 1 ork either way, .84 or .72 of marine and 1.32 or 1.65 guardsmen.
DE just have so many better, cheaper ways of killing enemies
.
SO basically the added attack opton is worthless. ?
Wellp.
For 1st its not added, we had that option for years, 8th took it away bc GW has to take at least 20% from DE every book, they simply gave it back to use, and 2nd, its only on the leader, the unit is mathematically one if not the worst DE unit besides Clawed Fiends.
Nothing they do in 8th will make them playable other than completely changing everything about them, if they had +2 to wound with re-rolls, at least you can use them as a MW bomb unit.
the_scotsman wrote: Considering they've replaced Finecast pretty consistently and even gotten rid of that branding entirely (It's nowhere on their website anymore IIRC) I think it's safe to say that release was a super-flop.
Oh hey indeed. Maybe that's why they're repackaging things all the time, to get rid of the name and stigma coming with it.
Does anyone expect the kit to have any addtional options, like the Banshee kit does? Ynnari Incubi don't sound particularly likely to me as an idea, since they've always been described as very devoted to passionless pursuit of martial arts, unlikely to be moved by religious conviction
Agamemnon2 wrote: Does anyone expect the kit to have any addtional options, like the Banshee kit does? Ynnari Incubi don't sound particularly likely to me as an idea, since they've always been described as very devoted to passionless pursuit of martial arts, unlikely to be moved by religious conviction
maybe but for all their bluster and edgelord kewl a viable avoidance of She that Thirists would tempt most Deldar
Not Online!!! wrote: But in all seriousness, what's the issue with the weapon? For a non eldar player?
Well, the first problem is that Incubi already have serious issues with damage output. Klaives were okay in past editions but with so many infantry now having 2+ wounds they're just not pulling their weight. It also doesn't help that they're only S4 and have no access to damage buffs or rerolls.
The issue with Demiklaives is that they solve precisely none of these issues and instead add an alternate mode that's basically entirely pointless.
It really needed to be something like:
Single Blade: S+2 AP-3 D2
Dual Blades: S+1 AP-3 D1 & +2Attacks
(with normal Klaives just using the first profile)
You could say that for a lot of weapons now that even relatively squishy characters are W4, and weapons tend to jump from D1 to D3. Heck, a few complaints about stuff like Lascannons and whatnot would be solved by pegging them at a specific D.
Looks pretty good. Hopefully there are other complimentary rules beyond their weapon profile that will dramatically improve their usefulness.
I agree that the head does look rather large. Perhaps it's just the horns that are causing the issue?
It's a shame they didn't give the Klaivex a trenchcoat reminiscent of the original Vect Retinue Incubi. I would love to see them ditch the current court of the archon in favor of returning to an incubi retinue. A whole unit of Klaivex with trenchcoats protecting an Archon would be quite the site. Horrible and effective, but quite the site.
Shadenuat wrote: So Incubi are fairly new models especially when compared to Craftworlds stuff. Can we exercise a daring thought that finecast fails to sell and they really really want to replace it?
there awas a rumor awhile back, I think back at the start of 8th edition that GW wanted to be rid of finecast by 2020. I never really took that too seriously as there where so many characters they'd have to replace that it'd be almost impossiable, but I could see 2020 being the target to update to plastic various finecast units. and leave finecast to older character models exclusivly.
Dudeface wrote: Parity. Death guard and thousand sons are as divergent fluff wise as emperors children. Currently you would have capacity for:
Fulgrim
Lucius
Doomrider
Noise marines
Fabius Bile
Kakophoni (heavy sonic weapons)
The reject experiment marines
Sonic dreads
Subjugators could be repurposed into here
Plus any shared units.
Why do you want "parity" only for Chaos legions? Why can you not see that I want inter-factional parity also?
Dudeface wrote: All previous existing kits or entries, what speed freaks units are missing?
What would there be capacity for, you mean?
Wazzdakka Gutsmek
Speedlord Supreme Krooldakka
Zagboss Skargrim
Jazgob
Warboss on Bike
Big Mek on Bike (KFF and SAG versions, as well as standard)
Painboy on Bike
Boar Boyz (could be a Snakebite codex instead, or both)
Weirdboy Battle Tower
Speedstas
Battle Fortress
Cyborks
To be fair I'd take a supplement but I don't see why one faction deserves sub faction specific codexes and another does not.
Brian888 wrote: It's a fair question. Putting aside real-world economic reasons why the DG and TS got their own codexes, the fluff basically says that they need their own codexes because they are substantially different in structure and operation from the other Traitor Legions.
And Evil Sunz are portrayed as completely different to Goffs and completely different to Snakebites in terms of structure etc in the lore. This isn't a Legion or a Marine only phenomenon.
hey if GW thinks a speed freaks codex can make them money I'm all for a speed freaks codex. People think a EC and WE codex are likely for a host of reasons. the main one is thousand sons and death guard have their own codices and poeople assume the other 2 "mono god legions" will.
I do think a world eaters and emperor's children codex would be benifical to the game. as it would allow GW to give them the units required to actually function as they're supposed to without unbalancing the undivided armies,.
BrianDavion wrote: hey if GW thinks a speed freaks codex can make them money I'm all for a speed freaks codex
Given they made a boxed game called Speed Freaks and with a specific focus on them so I think it's a pretty safe bet. They also decided to make the Buggies universally poor rules-wise so I suspect they had an inkling they'd sell regardless.
Back to the discussion, I agree with the general sentiment that this bodes well for the replacement of Finecast models which pretty much everyone wants at this point.
BrianDavion wrote: hey if GW thinks a speed freaks codex can make them money I'm all for a speed freaks codex. People think a EC and WE codex are likely for a host of reasons. the main one is thousand sons and death guard have their own codices and poeople assume the other 2 "mono god legions" will.
I do think a world eaters and emperor's children codex would be benifical to the game. as it would allow GW to give them the units required to actually function as they're supposed to without unbalancing the undivided armies,.
Unbalancing the undivided armies?
You know gw could've easily done a book with all the marine chapters in it and all the legions in one with propperly fleshed out lore and lists.
Instead we get to buy more gak then allready?
Rules are allready too splintered to force players to buy multiple books.
Agamemnon2 wrote: Does anyone expect the kit to have any addtional options, like the Banshee kit does? Ynnari Incubi don't sound particularly likely to me as an idea, since they've always been described as very devoted to passionless pursuit of martial arts, unlikely to be moved by religious conviction
Incubi are literally the pisterboys of Ynnari (seriously look at the posters) and The Visarch is a Hierarch who took his whole shrine over. If say Ynnari Incubi are 100% a thing in the fluff. They are also available in the current Ynnari index, no one takes them as they cost CP and are terrible, but they are there.
To answer another question posed by someone else, yes the klaivex used to have an equivalent of Exarch powers back in 5th. DE lost alot in the last few editions. Hopefully we'll get some back.
I wonder if we will see a battle box for Eldar vs dark eldar like tooth and claw or wrath and rapture. Say a squad of howling banshee and exarch, some jet bikes, jetseer, and dire avengers vs drazhar, incubi, squad of warriors and raider.
BrianDavion wrote: hey if GW thinks a speed freaks codex can make them money I'm all for a speed freaks codex
Given they made a boxed game called Speed Freaks and with a specific focus on them so I think it's a pretty safe bet. They also decided to make the Buggies universally poor rules-wise so I suspect they had an inkling they'd sell regardless.
Back to the discussion, I agree with the general sentiment that this bodes well for the replacement of Finecast models which pretty much everyone wants at this point.
my local GW had speed freak boxes in until a month or two ago so it may not have sold well.. that said I think there's still a copy of "Wake the dead" in my local store, which is no suprise, for the price of wake the dead I could buy dark Imperium and get more units, wake the dead only offered a unique Leuitenant for marine players.
BrianDavion wrote: hey if GW thinks a speed freaks codex can make them money I'm all for a speed freaks codex
Given they made a boxed game called Speed Freaks and with a specific focus on them so I think it's a pretty safe bet. They also decided to make the Buggies universally poor rules-wise so I suspect they had an inkling they'd sell regardless.
Back to the discussion, I agree with the general sentiment that this bodes well for the replacement of Finecast models which pretty much everyone wants at this point.
my local GW had speed freak boxes in until a month or two ago so it may not have sold well.. that said I think there's still a copy of "Wake the dead" in my local store, which is no suprise, for the price of wake the dead I could buy dark Imperium and get more units, wake the dead only offered a unique Leuitenant for marine players.
Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal. I'm pretty sure it sold out online, which is probably a better representation than your local store.
Plastic Incubi are meh. They have no army tactics, t3 models, without psychic support or stratagems, and are over-costed for their damage output/durability. So...thanks?
An Actual Englishman wrote: This is going way off topic now but there is absolutely no reason that EC deserve a full codex and not any other sub faction. EC, as far as I'm concerned, are simply Slaanesh worshipping Chaos marines with a penchant for noise. Is that their only unique unit? The noise marine? You want them to have an entire codex for that and Fulgrim? If your response is "no AAE they should have new models bruuu" then I ask why should that be any different to another sub faction?
You've seen the Death Guard and 1KSons books right? That's what would happen to EC.
New HQs, Noise Marine Terminators, a special unit (ala Deathshroud or Exalted Sorcs) vehicles/daemon engines, the works.
Your narrow view on them (They're just CSMs with sonic guns!) is very, very silly.
Those Incubi are lookin' fine! Hopefully they get updated rules as well like the Banshees, so they have something to beef up their CC a bit and make up for their lack of a trait in the DE army.
An Actual Englishman wrote: This is going way off topic now but there is absolutely no reason that EC deserve a full codex and not any other sub faction. EC, as far as I'm concerned, are simply Slaanesh worshipping Chaos marines with a penchant for noise. Is that their only unique unit? The noise marine? You want them to have an entire codex for that and Fulgrim? If your response is "no AAE they should have new models bruuu" then I ask why should that be any different to another sub faction?
You've seen the Death Guard and 1KSons books right? That's what would happen to EC.
New HQs, Noise Marine Terminators, a special unit (ala Deathshroud or Exalted Sorcs) vehicles/daemon engines, the works.
Your narrow view on them (They're just CSMs with sonic guns!) is very, very silly.
As above, the bolded part of my post. As I have said I have no issue with sub-factions getting their own codex, I think the same should happen more often and to more than just Marines and Spikey Marines though.
I think it is unlikely that EC get a release any time soon because CSM and Slaanesh Daemons have just received a huuuge update and though I suppose you're more than able to disagree, you'd be hard pressed not to concede that they are very similar in aesthetic and player base I think.
pm713 wrote: Did Incubi ever have their own version of Exarch powers? I doubt GW are going to add them now.
They used to have a few things - like helmit mounted splinter pistols. Given they are a dark mirror of Aspect Warriors and Exarchs - not giving them the smae boost seems extremely lazy.
The helmet only ever gave +1A though and wasn't a Klaivex ability, largely because it was kind of removed for the 5th ed codex when the Klaivex became a thing, Incubi gained an exra attack to their profile anyway to balance it out.
The Klaivex had 2 powers in 5th, one gave the whole squad exploding 6's to hit, which is now a stratagem, and the other let you re-roll 1's against an Independent Character for just the Klaivex.
Imateria wrote: Saddly the Demi-klaives profile is unchanged, meaning they're still worthless pieces of crap.
Yeah, I was going to comment about this. What is even the point of the second profile? Might as well have the option to swap out the Klaive for a French loaf.
Also, the Banshee Exarch get 6 completely new powers to choose from whilst the Klaivex doesn't even get a fix to his garbage weapon. Glad to see that the preferential treatment for Craftwords remains strong as ever.
Amishprn86 wrote: COOOOL Incubi, i literally don't care as a DE player, i'd rather have more HQ options and a way to mix detachments some new traits for mix detachments, etc..
Also this.
I really don't want the only models DE get this decade to just be more plastic remakes of finecast models.
Welcome to the club DE players care for an oblitervirus shake?
But in all seriousness, what's the issue with the weapon? For a non eldar player?
Math. Against most targets they're underwhelming and not very good. and the outcome isn't particularly distinct. Kills about 1 ork either way, .84 or .72 of marine and 1.32 or 1.65 guardsmen.
DE just have so many better, cheaper ways of killing enemies
.
SO basically the added attack opton is worthless. ?
Wellp.
Voss and the_scotsman both missed the most important part, you pay 8pts to give the Klaivex Demi-Klaives whilst the standard Klaive with the +1S, AP-3 profile is free.
The Klaivex had 2 powers in 5th, one gave the whole squad exploding 6's to hit, which is now a stratagem, and the other let you re-roll 1's against an Independent Character for just the Klaivex.
Voss and the_scotsman both missed the most important part, you pay 8pts to give the Klaivex Demi-Klaives whilst the standard Klaive with the +1S, AP-3 profile is free.
In that case, I look forward to never using them even on those occasions when the planets align and I actually field a unit of Incubi.
The Klaivex had 2 powers in 5th, one gave the whole squad exploding 6's to hit, which is now a stratagem, and the other let you re-roll 1's against an Independent Character for just the Klaivex.
Voss and the_scotsman both missed the most important part, you pay 8pts to give the Klaivex Demi-Klaives whilst the standard Klaive with the +1S, AP-3 profile is free.
In that case, I look forward to never using them even on those occasions when the planets align and I actually field a unit of Incubi.
The Bloodstone was a one use only piece of wargear you could buy for a Klaivex, if I remember right it was a S3, AP3 flamer template.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: How many attacks does he have to begin with? Like, if he had 3 base or something, them maybe adding on 2 more might be useful.
AFAIK, Incubi all have 3 attacks base, the Klaivex might have 4.
This is correct, and the Klaivex has an ability where his attacks are a flat 3 damage on 6's to wound. The problem is they are MEQ killers in an edition where MEQ is worthless.
Jidmah wrote: Why would you want supplement books for the ork codex?
So I can play my clan as it is supposed to be played without completely hamstringing myself so neither my opponent nor me has a good time?
To shake up the meta?
To add more variety to the two primary Ork competitive builds?
Take your pick.
And what exactly do you expect the supplement book to do except charging you extra money for what is basically the vigilus detachment plus what's already in the codex?
Do you really expect it will suck less just because you paid premium for yet another book?
Go ask all the white scars players sitting on their biker armies how well that worked for them.
The Klaivex had 2 powers in 5th, one gave the whole squad exploding 6's to hit, which is now a stratagem, and the other let you re-roll 1's against an Independent Character for just the Klaivex.
Voss and the_scotsman both missed the most important part, you pay 8pts to give the Klaivex Demi-Klaives whilst the standard Klaive with the +1S, AP-3 profile is free.
In that case, I look forward to never using them even on those occasions when the planets align and I actually field a unit of Incubi.
The Bloodstone was a one use only piece of wargear you could buy for a Klaivex, if I remember right it was a S3, AP3 flamer template.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: How many attacks does he have to begin with? Like, if he had 3 base or something, them maybe adding on 2 more might be useful.
AFAIK, Incubi all have 3 attacks base, the Klaivex might have 4.
This is correct, and the Klaivex has an ability where his attacks are a flat 3 damage on 6's to wound. The problem is they are MEQ killers in an edition where MEQ is worthless.
An Actual Englishman wrote: This is going way off topic now but there is absolutely no reason that EC deserve a full codex and not any other sub faction. EC, as far as I'm concerned, are simply Slaanesh worshipping Chaos marines with a penchant for noise. Is that their only unique unit? The noise marine? You want them to have an entire codex for that and Fulgrim? If your response is "no AAE they should have new models bruuu" then I ask why should that be any different to another sub faction?
You've seen the Death Guard and 1KSons books right? That's what would happen to EC.
New HQs, Noise Marine Terminators, a special unit (ala Deathshroud or Exalted Sorcs) vehicles/daemon engines, the works.
Your narrow view on them (They're just CSMs with sonic guns!) is very, very silly.
As above, the bolded part of my post. As I have said I have no issue with sub-factions getting their own codex, I think the same should happen more often and to more than just Marines and Spikey Marines though.
I think it is unlikely that EC get a release any time soon because CSM and Slaanesh Daemons have just received a huuuge update and though I suppose you're more than able to disagree, you'd be hard pressed not to concede that they are very similar in aesthetic and player base I think.
Slaanish deamons aren't EC though, right now Noise Marines are in pretty despirate need of a plastic kit. own codex or not I'd not be suprised if the new CSM toy with PA was a plastric noise marine kit.
An Actual Englishman wrote: CSM and Slaanesh Daemons have just received a huuuge update and though I suppose you're more than able to disagree, you'd be hard pressed not to concede that they are very similar in aesthetic and player base I think.
CSM got replacements for their basic troops and old havocs, then a number of characters and a terrain piece. Obliterators, Venomcrawler, and Greater Spawn are only available in the box set (same as Suppressors for SM) Slaanesh Daemons got 3 new characters, Fiends, a Greater Daemon, and a couple terrain pieces. They were literally the last units in the Damon Codex to be updated to plastic besides a couple of named characters. Emperor's Children have 0 plastic models that are specific to them, while World Eaters have the old Berzerkers kit and an updated Kharn.
Space Marines normally get a massive amount of attention release wise, but GW is going about with a multiple month delay in releasing models that they already sell the rules for.
Aesthetics and Playerbase, I'd disagree with EC vs Chaos Marines. Given what has happened to 2 of the 4 god aligned legions so far, it is logical to assume that Emperor's Children will be given a distinctive look from basic CSM in the same way that Rubric Marines or Plague Marines are quite distinct. And so far the pattern for the Aligned Legions has been Primarch, troop box, terminator box, updated named character, box of 3 specialists, and then various clampacks (Death Guard getting a lot more than Thousand Sons)
I would like to see other armies get subfaction books- Kroot, Feral Orks, Exodites, Traitor Guard (as a supplement to Guard) would all be cool. But honestly, I think the bigger priority for some races is getting the remainder of their core units over to plastic, and then expanding from there. Incubi are a good Start for Dark Eldar, As would be Grotesques, Beastmaster menagerie, and Mandrakes. Eldar still need Spears, Scorpions, Hawks, Reapers, Spiders, Fire Dragons, Rangers, and the Avatar in plastic Orks need Tankbustas, Kommandos, and Deff Koptas. Tau need Vespid and Kroot Auxilaries. Nids need Lictors and Ripper Swarms. Necrons need Flayed Ones and possibly Pariahs back.
as in the faces are just for Ynnari usefull?
