vipoid wrote:
It's a little odd that our premier duellist seems to now excel at chaff-clearing, but I guess SM characters aren't allowed to be threatened by lowly Xeno scum.

Definitely by design.

Hecaton wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
It's a little odd that our premier duellist seems to now excel at chaff-clearing, but I guess SM characters aren't allowed to be threatened by lowly Xeno scum.

Definitely by design.

You mean a duelist strictly in an arena where they're choosing the rules isn't exactly fantastic on the battlefield?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
It's a little odd that our premier duellist seems to now excel at chaff-clearing, but I guess SM characters aren't allowed to be threatened by lowly Xeno scum.

Definitely by design.

You mean a duelist strictly in an arena where they're choosing the rules isn't exactly fantastic on the battlefield?

I mean... Lelith fights off bigger stuff than what most Intercessor sergeants do in that arena. And Drukhari arent known for their strict rules either.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
It's a little odd that our premier duellist seems to now excel at chaff-clearing, but I guess SM characters aren't allowed to be threatened by lowly Xeno scum.

Definitely by design.

You mean a duelist strictly in an arena where they're choosing the rules isn't exactly fantastic on the battlefield?

I don't think Commorragh arena's compare to something scripted like WWE.
Remember that the ones watching really don't care who is dying in the arena floor. Its the agony and spectacle that counts, they have no regard for their fellow DE.

Lilith really is supposed to be one of the deadliest combatants in 40k

Hecaton wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
It's a little odd that our premier duellist seems to now excel at chaff-clearing, but I guess SM characters aren't allowed to be threatened by lowly Xeno scum.

Definitely by design.

((8 * .167) + (8 * .833)) * .5 * .833 = 3.33 x 2 = 6.7 // ignoring if she still can reroll her own 1s still and assuming cult of strife still gives +1A

She kills 3 to 4 primaris each turn. Her double fight applies in the opponent's phase as well. With a little luck she'll kill a 5 man in one go. Surviving is a different matter though.

As you choose the Natural Perfection ability in your Command Phase, and it says "In the Fight Phase of this turn", I'm pretty sure it doesn't work on your opponent's Fight Phase, as it's not "this turn" but your opponents.

So since her second attack happens at he end of the attack phase, does that mean she can attack the chaff screen, and if she kills them all, consolidate into the HQ they were screening and hit them with next attack?

PenitentJake wrote:
So since her second attack happens at he end of the attack phase, does that mean she can attack the chaff screen, and if she kills them all, consolidate into the HQ they were screening and hit them with next attack?

Only if you can consolidate in to another combat.

PenitentJake wrote:
So since her second attack happens at he end of the attack phase, does that mean she can attack the chaff screen, and if she kills them all, consolidate into the HQ they were screening and hit them with next attack?

maybe?

If she charged then no. Because you can only attack what you declared as a charge target and you need to reach all units you declare a charge against so that doesn't add up, so would need to reach the HQ with the initial charge and then there is no need to clear a chaff screen.

If she didn't charge and is not within 1" of anyone can she be chosen as a valid target to fight with? Does the "you can fight again" overwrite the normal requirements to be allowed to fight? (in engagement range) Not sure what the rules are on that.

If she didn't charge and managed to reach the HQ with her consolidate move after the first combat then 100% yes.

That sounds about right.

Curious to see interactions between her and Obsessions, strats, and PfP too. They might help her pull it off.

The suspense really is getting overwhelming. I really want this dex... Like yesterday!

Ugh... Str4 1Dmg attacks... Gross....

This is going pretty much like expected. No wonder they don't want to show this pile of crap off.

Lelith gets knives that hit like Power Swords and three more attacks on her basic profile and the response is:

 Argive wrote:
Ugh... Str4 1Dmg attacks... Gross....

This is going pretty much like expected. No wonder they don't want to show this pile of crap off.

Don't change Dakka. Never change

 alextroy wrote:
Lelith gets knives that hit like Power Swords and three more attacks on her basic profile and the response is:

 Argive wrote:
Ugh... Str4 1Dmg attacks... Gross....

This is going pretty much like expected. No wonder they don't want to show this pile of crap off.

Don't change Dakka. Never change

So what ? She can chop up some guardsmen? Wow.... Fabtastic... *clap clap*
The amount of attacks is more or less on par with previous rules..

Truth is she will bounce off anything that's gravis or terminator or has storm shields which hate it or love is what you have to be able to remove from objectives for it to matter... She cant kill elite infantry, characters with an invuln or monsters or vehicles with any degree of effectiveness. So she's a very good looking chaff clearer.. great.. just what the army needs with its millions of poison... yep.. cant deal with the chaff... Truth we don't know the whole scope of the rules but ST4 1Dmg is friggin terrible no matter how you spin it..

With her rule, you will have to either get her close enough so she can attack twice, and doesn't need to advance or most likely will advance and only fight once. Meaning she cant reliably even blend a unit of chaff in reality if she only fights once.

But sure. Snark away my dude..

 Denegaar wrote:
As you choose the Natural Perfection ability in your Command Phase, and it says "In the Fight Phase of this turn", I'm pretty sure it doesn't work on your opponent's Fight Phase, as it's not "this turn" but your opponents.

Ah crap. My bad. Thanks.

 Argive wrote:

So what ? She can chop up some guardsmen? Wow.... Fabtastic... *clap clap*
The amount of attacks is more or less on par with previous rules..

Truth is she will bounce off anything that's gravis or terminator or has storm shields which hate it or love is what you have to be able to remove from objectives for it to matter... She cant kill elite infantry, characters with an invuln or monsters or vehicles with any degree of effectiveness. So she's a very good looking chaff clearer.. great.. just what the army needs with its millions of poison... yep.. cant deal with the chaff... Truth we don't know the whole scope of the rules but ST4 1Dmg is friggin terrible no matter how you spin it..

With her rule, you will have to either get her close enough so she can attack twice, and doesn't need to advance or most likely will advance and only fight once. Meaning she cant reliably even blend a unit of chaff in reality if she only fights once.

That is what I meant by rules disagreeing with background. The rules for her fighting twice basically reward for attacking chaff as that is the most reliably way to trigger it.

If I were the one doing Lelith rules for flavor, I would give her the option to add on bonuses to her attacks if and only if they are all directed at a Character. Like -1 Attack (and able to sacrifice more than 1 Attack) to pick 1 from the following: Ignore invulnerables, +1 Damage to all attacks, disarm an enemy weapon (or -1 enemy Attack), +1 Strength (cumulative). Just as immediate off the cuff ideas to represent her showing her arena duelling skills and to show her using her ordinary knives in amazing ways to the astonishment of her opponents.

Against chaff, she can just use her normal number of Attacks to represent her blending. Her background described signature move is a swirling pirouette against multiple opponents.

 Argive wrote:
So what ? She can chop up some guardsmen? Wow.... Fabtastic... *clap clap*
The amount of attacks is more or less on par with previous rules..

Truth is she will bounce off anything that's gravis or terminator or has storm shields which hate it or love is what you have to be able to remove from objectives for it to matter... She cant kill elite infantry, characters with an invuln or monsters or vehicles with any degree of effectiveness. So she's a very good looking chaff clearer.. great.. just what the army needs with its millions of poison... yep.. cant deal with the chaff... Truth we don't know the whole scope of the rules but ST4 1Dmg is friggin terrible no matter how you spin it..

With her rule, you will have to either get her close enough so she can attack twice, and doesn't need to advance or most likely will advance and only fight once. Meaning she cant reliably even blend a unit of chaff in reality if she only fights once.

But sure. Snark away my dude..

A smash captain does 3.1 to W3 storm shield units.
Lelith does 2 -- 4 if she manages to kill one.

Similar against Gravis. She can do just as well if she can tip over into her second activation.

If we pretend she was D2 then she'd do 6 to SS and 6.8 to Gravis, which is much better than the 130 point captain when she's currently 90.

I feel like she does really well against most stuff. If you need to take out terminators then that's probably what Drazhar or disintegrators will be for.

Is it unfair that a smash captain can kill maybe one or two necron warriors when she can kill 8? Or do we just do away with variety, because head cannon says so?

 Argive wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Lelith gets knives that hit like Power Swords and three more attacks on her basic profile and the response is:

 Argive wrote:
Ugh... Str4 1Dmg attacks... Gross....

This is going pretty much like expected. No wonder they don't want to show this pile of crap off.

Don't change Dakka. Never change

So what ? She can chop up some guardsmen? Wow.... Fabtastic... *clap clap*
The amount of attacks is more or less on par with previous rules..

Truth is she will bounce off anything that's gravis or terminator or has storm shields which hate it or love is what you have to be able to remove from objectives for it to matter... She cant kill elite infantry, characters with an invuln or monsters or vehicles with any degree of effectiveness. So she's a very good looking chaff clearer.. great.. just what the army needs with its millions of poison... yep.. cant deal with the chaff... Truth we don't know the whole scope of the rules but ST4 1Dmg is friggin terrible no matter how you spin it..

With her rule, you will have to either get her close enough so she can attack twice, and doesn't need to advance or most likely will advance and only fight once. Meaning she cant reliably even blend a unit of chaff in reality if she only fights once.

But sure. Snark away my dude..

From what we know, she is more deadly then before. But since she can't drop kick a Space Marine Captain into next week, the unit is a failure. This Zero or Hero mentality is sadly common on DD now days

Iracundus wrote:

If I were the one doing Lelith rules for flavor, I would give her the option to add on bonuses to her attacks if and only if they are all directed at a Character. Like -1 Attack (and able to sacrifice more than 1 Attack) to pick 1 from the following: Ignore invulnerables, +1 Damage to all attacks, disarm an enemy weapon (or -1 enemy Attack), +1 Strength (cumulative). Just as immediate off the cuff ideas to represent her showing her arena duelling skills and to show her using her ordinary knives in amazing ways to the astonishment of her opponents.

Her old rules has reroll hits and wounds vs characters. I imagine that will stay.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Argive wrote:
So what ? She can chop up some guardsmen? Wow.... Fabtastic... *clap clap*
The amount of attacks is more or less on par with previous rules..

Truth is she will bounce off anything that's gravis or terminator or has storm shields which hate it or love is what you have to be able to remove from objectives for it to matter... She cant kill elite infantry, characters with an invuln or monsters or vehicles with any degree of effectiveness. So she's a very good looking chaff clearer.. great.. just what the army needs with its millions of poison... yep.. cant deal with the chaff... Truth we don't know the whole scope of the rules but ST4 1Dmg is friggin terrible no matter how you spin it..

With her rule, you will have to either get her close enough so she can attack twice, and doesn't need to advance or most likely will advance and only fight once. Meaning she cant reliably even blend a unit of chaff in reality if she only fights once.

But sure. Snark away my dude..

A smash captain does 3.1 to W3 storm shield units.
Lelith does 2 -- 4 if she manages to kill one.

Similar against Gravis. She can do just as well if she can tip over into her second activation.

Problem is, most storm shield units and gravis units have 3 wounds, so pretty good odds she... won't tip over to her second activation. She'll bounce short of killing 1.
Same with characters.
Basic marines she can actually claw her way up to killing 2 then another 2. Good for her, I guess.

Characters packing a flurry of average strength minimum damage attacks is a different edition's design philosophy.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Argive wrote:
So what ? She can chop up some guardsmen? Wow.... Fabtastic... *clap clap*
The amount of attacks is more or less on par with previous rules..

Truth is she will bounce off anything that's gravis or terminator or has storm shields which hate it or love is what you have to be able to remove from objectives for it to matter... She cant kill elite infantry, characters with an invuln or monsters or vehicles with any degree of effectiveness. So she's a very good looking chaff clearer.. great.. just what the army needs with its millions of poison... yep.. cant deal with the chaff... Truth we don't know the whole scope of the rules but ST4 1Dmg is friggin terrible no matter how you spin it..

With her rule, you will have to either get her close enough so she can attack twice, and doesn't need to advance or most likely will advance and only fight once. Meaning she cant reliably even blend a unit of chaff in reality if she only fights once.

But sure. Snark away my dude..

A smash captain does 3.1 to W3 storm shield units.
Lelith does 2 -- 4 if she manages to kill one.

Similar against Gravis. She can do just as well if she can tip over into her second activation.

If we pretend she was D2 then she'd do 6 to SS and 6.8 to Gravis, which is much better than the 130 point captain when she's currently 90.

I feel like she does really well against most stuff. If you need to take out terminators then that's probably what Drazhar or disintegrators will be for.

Is it unfair that a smash captain can kill maybe one or two necron warriors when she can kill 8? Or do we just do away with variety, because head cannon says so?

What exactly is this similiarly priced captain equipped with, what warlord traits+ relics he has and what chapter and doctrine is he?
Also shes not getting that second activation realistically until turn 3 if you can get her to safe charging distance otherwise she will have to advance and charge so no double activation for her. Good thing honouring the chapter is no longer a thing that you can just pay CP for instead.

She's not a nameless generic HQ..
How many pts is Ragnar these days?

Also I dotn think she will retain rerolls.. Just a hunch. Also will she provide rerolls for half the army like a smash captain does?
So yeah her 90 pts if she stays that wont really far in terms of utilty either. I recon she'll be close to 110 because new codex new xenos tax.

We will know soon enough but that's trying really hard to justify taking her instead of just another venom and more ob sec troops right now..

PenitentJake wrote:
So since her second attack happens at he end of the attack phase, does that mean she can attack the chaff screen, and if she kills them all, consolidate into the HQ they were screening and hit them with next attack?

Not unless they heroically intervene into her, seeing as you have to attack what you charged.

She may also retain her ability to equip with a 2 damage Impaler instead of the knives. Even better if they let her use a shard net with it like a normal wych- though she didn't have it last edition either, so I doubt she'll get it this time around.

There's precedent for the Impaler though.

PenitentJake wrote:
She may also retain her ability to equip with a 2 damage Impaler instead of the knives. Even better if they let her use a shard net with it like a normal wych- though she didn't have it last edition either, so I doubt she'll get it this time around.

There's precedent for the Impaler though.

No model no rules...

Yeah, I think we would have seen the impaler by now. Or at least had it mentioned.

The 2010 version was that her knife and hair 'counted as' a shardnet and impaler, but well, we've seen the knife's profile.

 Argive wrote:

How many pts is Ragnar these days?

Ragnar is a good barometer. He's 130 and similar in the gakload of attacks category. It will be interesting to see the traits and remaining abilities.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Argive wrote:

How many pts is Ragnar these days?

Ragnar is a good barometer. He's 130 and similar in the gakload of attacks category. It will be interesting to see the traits and remaining abilities.

yeah 10 attacks almost all the time AND S6 AND AP-4 AND D2....

Ragnar makes her look like a complete weakling, which seems to be working as intended with modern GW Xenos design.

 Argive wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
She may also retain her ability to equip with a 2 damage Impaler instead of the knives. Even better if they let her use a shard net with it like a normal wych- though she didn't have it last edition either, so I doubt she'll get it this time around.

There's precedent for the Impaler though.

No model no rules...

A selectively enforced policy; it didn't stop her from having the option in 8th, and it doesn't apply to Celestians or Dominions, both of whom are built with regular ole Battle Sister models.

You are correct though that if they do cut the option, that will be the excuse they use- it's certainly not like they haven't done it before.

PenitentJake wrote:

 Argive wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
She may also retain her ability to equip with a 2 damage Impaler instead of the knives. Even better if they let her use a shard net with it like a normal wych- though she didn't have it last edition either, so I doubt she'll get it this time around.

There's precedent for the Impaler though.

No model no rules...

A selectively enforced policy; it didn't stop her from having the option in 8th, and it doesn't apply to Celestians or Dominions, both of whom are built with regular ole Battle Sister models.

Um? Not seeing the relevance to Celestians or Dominions. They have all their options in their box, its just a shared kit (Battle Sisters/Celestians/Dominions). But its why _every_ special weapon option has four copies in the box, and there are alternate helmets for the Celestians.

You are correct though that if they do cut the option, that will be the excuse they use- it's certainly not like they haven't done it before.

I can't think of any time GW has actually stated that as a reason. Forum goers certainly use that litany for almost any change, but that's never an 'official' reason.

PenitentJake wrote:

 Argive wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
She may also retain her ability to equip with a 2 damage Impaler instead of the knives. Even better if they let her use a shard net with it like a normal wych- though she didn't have it last edition either, so I doubt she'll get it this time around.

There's precedent for the Impaler though.

No model no rules...

A selectively enforced policy; it didn't stop her from having the option in 8th, and it doesn't apply to Celestians or Dominions, both of whom are built with regular ole Battle Sister models.

You are correct though that if they do cut the option, that will be the excuse they use- it's certainly not like they haven't done it before.

Tell me about it.. I still don't understand why I cant have autarch on foot with a power sword or a fusion pistol... Considering there is no Autarch on foot model. lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Ragnar makes her look like a complete weakling, which seems to be working as intended with modern GW Xenos design.

Yeah but Ragnar makes any character look like a weakling..

Maybe after we get a 17th primaris lieutenant, the foot autarch can get a model.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Argive wrote:

How many pts is Ragnar these days?

Ragnar is a good barometer. He's 130 and similar in the gakload of attacks category. It will be interesting to see the traits and remaining abilities.

Skulltaker is another good comparison. Same point cost as Lelith, fewer base attacks, but S5 (or 6) and 3 damage base, or d3+3 on a 6, so he can actually kill people- both characters (with full rerolls to wound and hit) and heavy infantry.

Argive wrote:Truth is she will bounce off anything that's gravis or terminator or has storm shields which hate it or love is what you have to be able to remove from objectives for it to matter... She cant kill elite infantry, characters with an invuln or monsters or vehicles with any degree of effectiveness. So she's a very good looking chaff clearer.. great.. just what the army needs with its millions of poison... yep.. cant deal with the chaff... Truth we don't know the whole scope of the rules but ST4 1Dmg is friggin terrible no matter how you spin it..

I don't think she will bounce of anything, but a decent unit of the Gravis or Storm Shields would slow her down. Invuls block most anything anyway, but I don't think a 5+ or 5++ would define as something that one would be bouncing off of. It's not like 2+/3++ was the hardest thing one would bounce off that wasn't a Vehicle any more. And as "bad" as Str 4 is, she was actually Str 3 back in the 5th Ed reset, so...

 Charistoph wrote:

Argive wrote:Truth is she will bounce off anything that's gravis or terminator or has storm shields which hate it or love is what you have to be able to remove from objectives for it to matter... She cant kill elite infantry, characters with an invuln or monsters or vehicles with any degree of effectiveness. So she's a very good looking chaff clearer.. great.. just what the army needs with its millions of poison... yep.. cant deal with the chaff... Truth we don't know the whole scope of the rules but ST4 1Dmg is friggin terrible no matter how you spin it..

I don't think she will bounce of anything, but a decent unit of the Gravis or Storm Shields would slow her down. Invuls block most anything anyway, but I don't think a 5+ or 5++ would define as something that one would be bouncing off of. It's not like 2+/3++ was the hardest thing one would bounce off that wasn't a Vehicle any more. And as "bad" as Str 4 is, she was actually Str 3 back in the 5th Ed reset, so...

Though in 5th edition you could just stick her in a squad of allied axeblades and enjoy being majority T5, wraithblades to kill anything lilith would bounce on and lilith would prevent them from getting tarpitted. and she ignored all armor.. and had a Bs9 plasma grenade that almost never scattered. and against most trash ws3 or 4 she had like 10 attacks due to getting +5-6 extra attacks from league apart. (i do miss some of the wacky de/eldar things you could do with battle brother allies)

 alextroy wrote:
From what we know, she is more deadly then before. But since she can't drop kick a Space Marine Captain into next week, the unit is a failure. This Zero or Hero mentality is sadly common on DD now days

I mean, yeah. That's sort of the state of the game. It's why people are happy for Incubi to be getting D2 and why D2 on Praetorians was gladly received.

It's a Marine meta. Always has been, always will be. For hyper elite units that have a focus on killing hyper elite things (with Lelith's status as a duellist she kind of does have) D1 just doesn't cut it in a lot of cases.

Obviously we'll have to see her full rules before passing judgement and assuming she keeps her re-rolls she can still fairly reliably yeet Marine support characters like Librarians and Apothecaries. But overall what they've shown of her so far just raises the question of what role she is meant to fill? A bit like the Hexmark Destroyer for Necrons really. Some highly efficient anti-horde/chaff unit.... in an army that's already full of that.

 Argive wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
She may also retain her ability to equip with a 2 damage Impaler instead of the knives. Even better if they let her use a shard net with it like a normal wych- though she didn't have it last edition either, so I doubt she'll get it this time around.

There's precedent for the Impaler though.

No model no rules...

It is possible (if not particularly probable) that her new kit contains a Shardnet and Impaler option.

 alextroy wrote:
Lelith gets knives that hit like Power Swords and three more attacks on her basic profile...

Just a point but we don't yet know whether those extra attacks on her profile actually represent extra attacks, or whether they've just consolidated the extra attacks she used to get anyway.

 harlokin wrote:

 Argive wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
She may also retain her ability to equip with a 2 damage Impaler instead of the knives. Even better if they let her use a shard net with it like a normal wych- though she didn't have it last edition either, so I doubt she'll get it this time around.

There's precedent for the Impaler though.

No model no rules...

It is possible (if not particularly probable) that her new kit contains a Shardnet and Impaler option.

I dont really see that happening, 7A profile, the same with the knife but better

 Argive wrote:

Yeah but Ragnar makes any character look like a weakling..

But that is the whole point. Lilith should be like Ragnar without all his buff aura's.

Drazhar is a better warrior than Leilith in the fluff too. Do we know if she has her trident or not?

 Bosskelot wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
From what we know, she is more deadly then before. But since she can't drop kick a Space Marine Captain into next week, the unit is a failure. This Zero or Hero mentality is sadly common on DD now days

I mean, yeah. That's sort of the state of the game. It's why people are happy for Incubi to be getting D2 and why D2 on Praetorians was gladly received.

It's a Marine meta. Always has been, always will be. For hyper elite units that have a focus on killing hyper elite things (with Lelith's status as a duellist she kind of does have) D1 just doesn't cut it in a lot of cases.

Obviously we'll have to see her full rules before passing judgement and assuming she keeps her re-rolls she can still fairly reliably yeet Marine support characters like Librarians and Apothecaries. But overall what they've shown of her so far just raises the question of what role she is meant to fill? A bit like the Hexmark Destroyer for Necrons really. Some highly efficient anti-horde/chaff unit.... in an army that's already full of that.

A space marine captain (or differently named equivalent, or better) is the standard HQ for an enormous fraction of the meta. If you combine marine armies, chaos marine armies, and custode armies you've accounted for like 75% of the armies in competitive play and honestly probably more in casual play. Just like how a suicide antitank unit that can't kill a W10 T7 3+ target is worthless, a character assassin that can't kill T4 W5 4++ is worthless.

I mean,it's fine. Drazar is right there, with fething A14 S5 AP-3 D2 with +1 to wound if he retains his current abilties, for 45pts more but they're points I'm happy to spend. This is just yet another good ol' classic GW "we made it utterly impossible for a new xenos release to succeed so that we can declare xenos releases bad investments" move.

Held hostage in a 240$ box set? Check
Mediocre to bad rules? Check.
Uninspired, dull sculpt? Check.
Not actually something new, just a plastic-ization of another .001% of the massive section of the range still in finecrap? Check.

looks like it's a GW Eldar release, yepyepyep!

the_scotsman wrote:

 Bosskelot wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
From what we know, she is more deadly then before. But since she can't drop kick a Space Marine Captain into next week, the unit is a failure. This Zero or Hero mentality is sadly common on DD now days

I mean, yeah. That's sort of the state of the game. It's why people are happy for Incubi to be getting D2 and why D2 on Praetorians was gladly received.

It's a Marine meta. Always has been, always will be. For hyper elite units that have a focus on killing hyper elite things (with Lelith's status as a duellist she kind of does have) D1 just doesn't cut it in a lot of cases.

Obviously we'll have to see her full rules before passing judgement and assuming she keeps her re-rolls she can still fairly reliably yeet Marine support characters like Librarians and Apothecaries. But overall what they've shown of her so far just raises the question of what role she is meant to fill? A bit like the Hexmark Destroyer for Necrons really. Some highly efficient anti-horde/chaff unit.... in an army that's already full of that.

A space marine captain (or differently named equivalent, or better) is the standard HQ for an enormous fraction of the meta. If you combine marine armies, chaos marine armies, and custode armies you've accounted for like 75% of the armies in competitive play and honestly probably more in casual play. Just like how a suicide antitank unit that can't kill a W10 T7 3+ target is worthless, a character assassin that can't kill T4 W5 4++ is worthless.

I mean,it's fine. Drazar is right there, with fething A14 S5 AP-3 D2 with +1 to wound if he retains his current abilties, for 45pts more but they're points I'm happy to spend. This is just yet another good ol' classic GW "we made it utterly impossible for a new xenos release to succeed so that we can declare xenos releases bad investments" move.

Held hostage in a 240$ box set? Check
Mediocre to bad rules? Check.
Uninspired, dull sculpt? Check.
Not actually something new, just a plastic-ization of another .001% of the massive section of the range still in finecrap? Check.

looks like it's a GW Eldar release, yepyepyep!

I cant really get why they treat Xenos like this,

they want all player to play space marines?
Like, do they know that if they make a half decent CWE/DE release people will buy like there is no tomorrow (and i will be one)?, ofc they do then why?
We already see that variety REALLY helps the growth of a game, aos its a living proof of that, and its became already a meme that AOS have better release and armys

In a word, market segments. GW has multiple different market segments that they're aiming for.

1) nostalgia-based older collectors. Basically, people who used to be part of the primary audience of teenaged boys in the 90s, and who are now older men in their 40s with disposable incomes who remember games workshop games fondly, and who GW knows will buy new kits if they are exactly. as. they. remember. them. These are consumers GW assumes are willing to shell out more to get the experience they remember: Customizing their miniatures, kitbashing, building them as they like them, and in turn, GW treats them as something of a 'captive audience'.

2) new teenaged consumers. GW has priced out teenagers buying things with their own money, so they generally take an approach mirroring the AAA video game industry or LEGO for their new consumer capture strategy: get them in with a 250-350$ purchase that gives them a starter product that a parent will purchase as a big gift, then have a split between small expansion items priced at 30-40$ that the kid is supposed to be able to afford himself, and larger 60-80$ kits that are meant to be gifts from the parent.

3) model/diorama artists who want the biggest coolest craziest most intricate plastic models on the market. This is the Centerpiece kit ballgame, the Belakors and the Keepers of Secrets and the Silent Kings and the Triumvirate boxes. These minis generally have rules that revolve around cool features on the model, limited customizability, very little practical design for gaming, and are solidly in the 100+$ per kit price point because they know the sales volume for that category of consumer is low. The diorama artist market buys 1 kit every couple of months, so GW makes sure that 1 kit is a sizable purchase.

Knowing what market segment each army is aimed for is an important step in knowing whether you're going to be made happy by a particular release. The new necrons, Death Guard, Chaos Space marine and primaris marines are 100% new player capture armies. The new sisters, GSC, and Admech are Nostalgia Collector armies.

if you buy into a new player capture army, you're likely to get simpler rules, simpler kits, and fewer options, but you're going to save a lot of money, and you're going to have many more units that you can buy cheaper EZtobuild kits and army bundle boxes for.

Most people I know playing the game don't remotely fit into any of those catagories.

Yeah. Of maybe... 70-80 guys personally or have played with in my community that play warhammer, 80% are 25-45 year olds that enjoy the models, more or less enjoy or at least are capable of painting, have been nerds all of their life, but most of all enjoy playing from casual 1 store month tournament to hardcore competitive.

We have also had a couple of "I have been buyin stuff for 10 years but didnt started to play until 8th" guys and gals.

 Imateria wrote:
Most people I know playing the game don't remotely fit into any of those catagories.

Sounds about right for GW marketing research.

warmaster21 wrote:Though in 5th edition you could just stick her in a squad of allied axeblades and enjoy being majority T5, wraithblades to kill anything lilith would bounce on and lilith would prevent them from getting tarpitted. and she ignored all armor.. and had a Bs9 plasma grenade that almost never scattered. and against most trash ws3 or 4 she had like 10 attacks due to getting +5-6 extra attacks from league apart. (i do miss some of the wacky de/eldar things you could do with battle brother allies)

T5 provided nothing to prevent bouncing off something, it helped things bounce off of her. The point I was trying to make was that she Wounds better than back then, and the poor Saves she leaves isn't like she is as hopeless as the point I was addressing.

And no, she did no have a BS9 Plasma Grenade that never scattered in 5e. That didn't change until Grenades could be thrown in 6th.

More to another point is that she was always a weak buzzcutter who's only problem was Wounding (countered by volume), which is still largely the case.

 Charistoph wrote:

warmaster21 wrote:Though in 5th edition you could just stick her in a squad of allied axeblades and enjoy being majority T5, wraithblades to kill anything lilith would bounce on and lilith would prevent them from getting tarpitted. and she ignored all armor.. and had a Bs9 plasma grenade that almost never scattered. and against most trash ws3 or 4 she had like 10 attacks due to getting +5-6 extra attacks from league apart. (i do miss some of the wacky de/eldar things you could do with battle brother allies)

T5 provided nothing to prevent bouncing off something, it helped things bounce off of her. The point I was trying to make was that she Wounds better than back then, and the poor Saves she leaves isn't like she is as hopeless as the point I was addressing.

And no, she did no have a BS9 Plasma Grenade that never scattered in 5e. That didn't change until Grenades could be thrown in 6th.

More to another point is that she was always a weak buzzcutter who's only problem was Wounding (countered by volume), which is still largely the case.

The point is now shes going to be trying to kill things with T4/5 with at least 2/3 wounds (terminators, baldeguard etc) at dmg 1. It's is not the same thing..

 Argive wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

warmaster21 wrote:Though in 5th edition you could just stick her in a squad of allied axeblades and enjoy being majority T5, wraithblades to kill anything lilith would bounce on and lilith would prevent them from getting tarpitted. and she ignored all armor.. and had a Bs9 plasma grenade that almost never scattered. and against most trash ws3 or 4 she had like 10 attacks due to getting +5-6 extra attacks from league apart. (i do miss some of the wacky de/eldar things you could do with battle brother allies)

T5 provided nothing to prevent bouncing off something, it helped things bounce off of her. The point I was trying to make was that she Wounds better than back then, and the poor Saves she leaves isn't like she is as hopeless as the point I was addressing.

And no, she did no have a BS9 Plasma Grenade that never scattered in 5e. That didn't change until Grenades could be thrown in 6th.

More to another point is that she was always a weak buzzcutter who's only problem was Wounding (countered by volume), which is still largely the case.

The point is now shes going to be trying to kill things with T4/5 with at least 2/3 wounds (terminators, baldeguard etc) at dmg 1. It's is not the same thing..

Well, she will Wound T4/5 easier than she used to, and she was never really intended to be buzzsawing in to hammer/board Terminators anyway. Regular Terminators will still give her the same problem as ever, though, the rate they go down will have diminished (but name an anti-infantry unit where that is not the case). Has she ever had a method of doing more damage than Attacks? If not, then I don't really see the specific complaint against her (a complaint against the Astartes buffs, sure, but there are other threads on those).

Don't think I've mentioned it in this thread yet...

If you go to the Warhammer 40k site, they now have subfactions up for everyone, and the DE subfaction descriptions give hints about what the Obsessions may be.

MOST of them look similar to old Obsessions, so the status quo seems largely maintained, and the Kabal of the Black Heart description seems to confirm Power from Pain will remain, and function in much the same way as usual.

The Cult of Strife description, however, makes it seem like their obsession might change to Slashing Impact (deal D3 Mortal Wounds on a charge).

Now if so, that's a softener, making the odds of getting a kill to facilitate the second set of attacks higher and at least somewhat mitigating Invulnerable saves.

PenitentJake wrote:
Don't think I've mentioned it in this thread yet...

If you go to the Warhammer 40k site, they now have subfactions up for everyone, and the DE subfaction descriptions give hints about what the Obsessions may be.

MOST of them look similar to old Obsessions, so the status quo seems largely maintained, and the Kabal of the Black Heart description seems to confirm Power from Pain will remain, and function in much the same way as usual.

The Cult of Strife description, however, makes it seem like their obsession might change to Slashing Impact (deal D3 Mortal Wounds on a charge).

Now if so, that's a softener, making the odds of getting a kill to facilitate the second set of attacks higher and at least somewhat mitigating Invulnerable saves.

Nice catch.

In my pettiness, I also enjoyed seeing Ynnari as a subfaction on the level of a Kabal.

Ooh- I missed that part part- good catch for you too!

I'd say the description for cult of strife seems the same. "Stabbing and slashing as they charge into melee" translates just fine to "+1A on the charge."

Also LOL@ old lelith being the image that pops up. Rip.

PenitentJake wrote:
and the Kabal of the Black Heart description seems to confirm Power from Pain will remain, and function in much the same way as usual.

You know you're in for a good codex when you're promised a "ground-up rework" and it starts with Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V.

 vipoid wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
and the Kabal of the Black Heart description seems to confirm Power from Pain will remain, and function in much the same way as usual.

You know you're in for a good codex when you're promised a "ground-up rework" and it starts with Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V.

Where did they promise that and why would PfP go away? Its not like -1D would help elves.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
and the Kabal of the Black Heart description seems to confirm Power from Pain will remain, and function in much the same way as usual.

You know you're in for a good codex when you're promised a "ground-up rework" and it starts with Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V.

Where did they promise that and why would PfP go away? Its not like -1D would help elves.

There was never anything credible one way or the other about PfP, which lead some of the more paranoid and pessimistic folks wondering if the rule would change significantly or even disappear. The description of the Black Heart implies that there is a power that the Drukhari get which increases as the game progresses, and that the Black Heart's niche is that they benefit from its most powerful effects sooner than most.

This is the most authoritative thing GW has said so far about PfP one way or the other.

You guys are sort of assuming the website's updated on the basis of the new codex, and not some content writer being told "here's the existing codexes, make up something cool for each faction's chapter variant".

"Uh, do we have a Dark Creed wrack or something?"
"Hahaha. Of course not."

Tyel wrote:
You guys are sort of assuming the website's updated on the basis of the new codex, and not some content writer being told "here's the existing codexes, make up something cool for each faction's chapter variant".

"Uh, do we have a Dark Creed wrack or something?"
"Hahaha. Of course not."

Whats a dark creed? Does it have something to do with Space marines?

The warhammer community stuff is often wrong even when it's about a specific release coming up (e.g. the recent post that claimed that Kill Team: Pariah would include the base rulebook, which they then ninja edited to remove without any explanation), you certainly can't trust that it's going to be right for more general stuff not tied to anything in particular.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Where did they promise that

It was during one of the Sunday preview/discussion videos, IIRC.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
and why would PfP go away?

I don't want it to go away. I just don't want it to be this sad Table of Dreariness.

It's basically the same lazy, boring dollop of faecal matter that was first smeared on the codex back in 7th edition, and the passage of time has not improved its odour.

 warmaster21 wrote:

Though in 5th edition you could just stick her in a squad of allied axeblades and enjoy being majority T5, wraithblades to kill anything lilith would bounce on and lilith would prevent them from getting tarpitted. and she ignored all armor.. and had a Bs9 plasma grenade that almost never scattered. and against most trash ws3 or 4 she had like 10 attacks due to getting +5-6 extra attacks from league apart. (i do miss some of the wacky de/eldar things you could do with battle brother allies)

*Nasally nerd voice*
Um, akshoowally, neither wraith blades nor ally rules were a thing in 5th, and she couldn't throw grenades at the time either. And wraith guard weren't T5 until index 40k in 8th edition (though they went back to T6 once we got our current codex).

Sorry. Pedantic nerdery. I, too, miss some of the flavorful rules drukhari used to have. The 5th edition dark eldar codex is probably my favorite 40k purchase.

EDIT: Also, man do I miss the old 3rd edition combat drug dispensers. You could basically pump up to 6 drugs into your characters and squad leaders, but the more drugs you used the more likely you were to overdose and hurt/kill yourself. I always loved that piece of wargear. I felt it really captured the sex, drugs (literally), and rock & roll thing the spiky elves had going on.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Tyel wrote:
You guys are sort of assuming the website's updated on the basis of the new codex, and not some content writer being told "here's the existing codexes, make up something cool for each faction's chapter variant".

"Uh, do we have a Dark Creed wrack or something?"
"Hahaha. Of course not."

Whats a dark creed? Does it have something to do with Space marines?

"Dark Creed sounds like he would make a great Primaris Lieutenant.."

*Bossman looks over at George*
"Thats briliant.. Make it happen Goerge, I want the design on my desk by monday"
"Ohh and Goerge..."

"yes sir?"

"You can just change the arm of the previous one to an axe instead of a sword. You deserve an early finish"

 vipoid wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Where did they promise that

It was during one of the Sunday preview/discussion videos, IIRC.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
and why would PfP go away?

I don't want it to go away. I just don't want it to be this sad Table of Dreariness.

It's basically the same lazy, boring dollop of faecal matter that was first smeared on the codex back in 7th edition, and the passage of time has not improved its odour.

Well one of your basic troopers gained an extra attack and a flicking 4+ when they've been 6+ for a majority of the game's existence, and that's just not knowing what else hasn't been previewed.

If that's not a rework just because Lelith doesn't do D2 and you're butthurt I really don't know what to tell ya.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Tyel wrote:
You guys are sort of assuming the website's updated on the basis of the new codex, and not some content writer being told "here's the existing codexes, make up something cool for each faction's chapter variant".

"Uh, do we have a Dark Creed wrack or something?"
"Hahaha. Of course not."

Whats a dark creed? Does it have something to do with Space marines?

Its a dark creed, the model is in the dark, it doesn't matter nobodys going to play it anyway just put a silhouette in there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Call me crazy but I think *just maybe* with the vector calculus that marine players have to do to determine whether they're in spectronometer doctrine or fenestration mode on turn 4 and which half-dozen army-wide rules that grants, we have reached the level of complexity in the game where we could support Power from Pain being an ability where a unit gains Power from causing Pain again.

You know.

With tokens you gain when you hurt enemy units.

the_scotsman wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Call me crazy but I think *just maybe* with the vector calculus that marine players have to do to determine whether they're in spectronometer doctrine or fenestration mode on turn 4 and which half-dozen army-wide rules that grants, we have reached the level of complexity in the game where we could support Power from Pain being an ability where a unit gains Power from causing Pain again.

You know.

With tokens you gain when you hurt enemy units.

I'd love a change to PfP. Charging up our "pain batteries" never really felt quite right. Plus, it's basically 5 special rules, half of which don't really do anything (especially if you're not a melee unit). That's just kind of clunky. The 5th edition system was flawed, but way more viscerally satisfying. And as half of that system's problems stemmed from the complication of having characters join and leave units, it might actually work better now than it did back in the day. You'd still (ideally) want to fix the problem of having all your hard-earned pain tokens vanish when the unit holding them gets killed though; most drukhari units are very easy to remove.

I pitched an idea in the Proposed Rules forum not too long ago where pain tokens got attached to units that took casualties. So enemy units basically started projecting buff auras for your army. And enemy units at half strength gave better buffs. I felt that it gave drukhari some incentive to play with their food rather than wiping out entire units, and it gave a similar feeling to the 5th edition pain token system without having the pain suddenly "dry up" when the unit with the tokens died.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Well one of your basic troopers gained an extra attack and a flicking 4+ when they've been 6+ for a majority of the game's existence, and that's just not knowing what else hasn't been previewed.

To be fair, we are talking about Kabalites (shooty infantry normally deployed in open-topped transports) gaining one S3 AP0 D1 attack, and going from a 5+ save to a 4+. It's not literally nothing, but not really something to set the pulse racing.

Sort of feel pain tokens were a win more mechanic. Its not I guess impossible to write around that, but I can't say the 7th/8th table upset me much.

Really would prefer to keep as is and get a new interactive thing on top. "Pain synonym doctrines" etc.

Tyel wrote:
Sort of feel pain tokens were a win more mechanic. Its not I guess impossible to write around that, but I can't say the 7th/8th table upset me much.

Really would prefer to keep as is and get a new interactive thing on top. "Pain synonym doctrines" etc.

Ugh. I know we will, but don't remind me of how bad the bloat is.

I guess it could be viewed as a win more mechanic, and it was tied to destroying units which is obviously stupid, you could be facing knights or custodes. but I did like the idea that a damaged unit could be deadlier than a fresh one if they were all covered in enemies blood and crazy.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Well one of your basic troopers gained an extra attack and a flicking 4+ when they've been 6+ for a majority of the game's existence

Kabalites have been 5+ for most of the game's existence, not 6+.

Also, I'm not sure what you think these changes even prove. Ignoring for now that an extra S3 AP0 D1 attack on a model that doesn't want to be anywhere near melee in the first place is about as useful as a porthole on a whale, these changes aren't remotely interesting.

Indeed, if you'd bothered to read my post (which you clearly didn't, as evidenced by your next sentence), my main complaint wasn't that the PfP table was weak but that it was boring. There's nothing exciting about the bonuses it offers, and no involvement whatsoever in how they're obtained.

I don't claim that the 5th edition PfP mechanic was perfect by any means, but it was far more involved and created a sense of units earning their pain tokens.

I'm not asking that the 5th edition system just be ported wholesale back into the 9th edition codex, but is it really too much to ask that they consider a mechanic slightly more involved than 'table that increases each turn, regardless of the state of the game and with no involvement from either player'?

The sad thing is, there are actually several mechanics across 40k and AoS that could make for a more interesting way to measure the accumulation of pain. As an example, look at the Slaanesh rules for Depravity - which occurs in the Morale (equivalent) phase and counts all the units that have lost models (without being wiped out) or characters that have lost wounds (without dying). Surely you could turn this into a workable system for accumulating Pain Tokens?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
If that's not a rework just because Lelith doesn't do D2 and you're butthurt I really don't know what to tell ya.

Apparently you're drunk on your own farts because I didn't even mention Lelith in the post you quoted.

Do I think it's silly that a character most notable for her duelling skills has been relegated to chaff-cleared? Yes. Do I care? Outside of how it reflects GW's attitude towards Xenos in general, not really, no. It would perhaps be nice to know that Lelith is appropriately skilled, but it makes little difference to me personally as I don't like special characters in general and so am unlikely to want to use her - regardless of how strong or weak her rules are.

Mostly I just think she's a somewhat useful indicator of what might be to come.

Tyel wrote:
Sort of feel pain tokens were a win more mechanic. Its not I guess impossible to write around that, but I can't say the 7th/8th table upset me much.

Really would prefer to keep as is and get a new interactive thing on top. "Pain synonym doctrines" etc.

Not at all b.c you have characters to give them out and units to generate more and even spread them. A beast pack starting with 2, a Incubi starting with 1, then if the Beasts dies Baron would take the token and move them to the Wych unit near by.

Yes it can be a win more, but honestly doesn't that fit with DE? Killing on the table could also show gathering of slaves, which would be more token no?

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Not at all b.c you have characters to give them out and units to generate more and even spread them. A beast pack starting with 2, a Incubi starting with 1, then if the Beasts dies Baron would take the token and move them to the Wych unit near by.

Yes it can be a win more, but honestly doesn't that fit with DE? Killing on the table could also show gathering of slaves, which would be more token no?

Its been a while so my memory may not be exact, but as the_scotsman said, you got them from killing units. So... you are sort of compounding success. If you kill something your unit becomes better, if you failed for whatever reason (Knights, Custodes, Death Guard, some Marine builds perhaps all being reasonable shouts) you are going to be left sort of.. stationary.

Since you are getting the buff on killing units (or wounds or whatever, skew remains) rather than turn order, I think the buffs would need to be more powerful - but as a result the cost of not having them would be higher.

So depends on your mentality really. If you like "when it works, it really works" thats fine. But it tends to be harder to balance, and I think would *tend* to result in DE being weak against the good factions. Unless good is MSU spam or something like that. (It wouldn't for example necesarilly be the worst versus Harlequins for instance.)

Basically I'm skeptical you can balance "Marines get Doctrines all the time. Sisters get... whatever their magic buffs are called. Necrons drew the xenos straw on Command Protocols but they are always up if a character's nearby... and DE lose regular PFP for a old system where some units start with a buff and others get more depending on kills".

The sad thing is, there are actually several mechanics across 40k and AoS that could make for a more interesting way to measure the accumulation of pain. As an example, look at the Slaanesh rules for Depravity - which occurs in the Morale (equivalent) phase and counts all the units that have lost models (without being wiped out) or characters that have lost wounds (without dying). Surely you could turn this into a workable system for accumulating Pain Tokens?

To be fair two aelf factions have similar "turn to turn" system rules as Drukhari(Idoneth and Daughters of Khaine) so I wouldn't be surprised if they kept that. It seems to be an "elf" trait at this moment in time.

Pain Tokens was a bad system and should stay buried, I mean depravity caused a lot of issues when it came out. The problem with "points for wounds/kills" is that it often forces you into very small and specific builds that locks out all other units. Both HoS(Hero builds) and BoK(MSU builds) suffer from this. I play BoK and the points for kills is a pain in the ass due to how random it can be how many points you get. I can get lucky one game and get all the blood points or none in the next game. Which is why so many players end up not trying to rely on blood points except for an automatic dispel here and there.

It also means that Drukhari can never be balanced if they have to rely on wounding/kills as not all opponents are equal when it comes to killing. I love the 5th edition codex but I would love to "not" have its kingmaker role again where a Drukhari player rarely won, but would always be the RNG to screw with other people and make another faction the winner. AoS has also tried to keep 2000 points to around 100-120 wounds(even then there are armies that can break that limit) and I doubt 40k has tried to balance the game at a similar level.

However, I can imagine pain tokens return as a rule in Crusade as Crusade is really the best option for such a randomizer trait. In Matched Game Pain Tokens are literally a pain.

Tyel wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Not at all b.c you have characters to give them out and units to generate more and even spread them. A beast pack starting with 2, a Incubi starting with 1, then if the Beasts dies Baron would take the token and move them to the Wych unit near by.

Yes it can be a win more, but honestly doesn't that fit with DE? Killing on the table could also show gathering of slaves, which would be more token no?

Its been a while so my memory may not be exact, but as the_scotsman said, you got them from killing units. So... you are sort of compounding success. If you kill something your unit becomes better, if you failed for whatever reason (Knights, Custodes, Death Guard, some Marine builds perhaps all being reasonable shouts) you are going to be left sort of.. stationary.

Since you are getting the buff on killing units (or wounds or whatever, skew remains) rather than turn order, I think the buffs would need to be more powerful - but as a result the cost of not having them would be higher.

So depends on your mentality really. If you like "when it works, it really works" thats fine. But it tends to be harder to balance, and I think would *tend* to result in DE being weak against the good factions. Unless good is MSU spam or something like that. (It wouldn't for example necesarilly be the worst versus Harlequins for instance.)

Basically I'm skeptical you can balance "Marines get Doctrines all the time. Sisters get... whatever their magic buffs are called. Necrons drew the xenos straw on Command Protocols but they are always up if a character's nearby... and DE lose regular PFP for a old system where some units start with a buff and others get more depending on kills".

That was the baseline mechanic but there were several ways to generate pain tokens, and I'm not saying that it needs to go back to that. Heck, it could be more tied to your actions with your units. Maybe making a super close-range shooting attack or making a charge generates a pain token, regardless of the outcome of that attack/charge.

I liked the token system purely for thematic reasons in keeping with the background. However a simple turn by turn buildup is more reliable and I guess "safe" with less randomness and variability, and thus easier to plan around.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/03/11/the-best-drukhari-codex-ever-here-are-5-new-reasons-why/

Good News!

Remember all the Dark Eldar stratagems from Blood of the Phoenix? You know, the ones that never existed because GW couldn't be arsed putting even the smallest iota of effort into our faction?

Well it's official - we get to keep every last one of those non-existent statagems.

 vipoid wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/03/11/the-best-drukhari-codex-ever-here-are-5-new-reasons-why/

Good News!

Remember all the Dark Eldar stratagems from Blood of the Phoenix? You know, the ones that never existed because GW couldn't be arsed putting even the smallest iota of effort into our faction?

Well it's official - we get to keep every last one of those non-existent statagems.

hey look on the bright side the cronos is getting an extra attack. thats right on the map babyy its gonna have THREE S5 Ap-1 d1 WS4+ attacks on a dreadnought-sized model.

I can FEEL the EXCITEMENT!!!

whilest i can understand the maybee you get to keep custom traits?


we still haven't seen a single new model beyond lelith right?

Not Online!!! wrote:
whilest i can understand the maybee you get to keep custom traits?


we still haven't seen a single new model beyond lelith right?

Nope, no sign of anything beyond her.

So it looks like it won't be so good? You lucky people, that's got to be at least another 20 pages worth of complaining over all threads, enjoy!

Not Online!!! wrote:
whilest i can understand the maybee you get to keep custom traits?

I'll try to contain my excitement at the prospect.

Not Online!!! wrote:
whilest i can understand the maybee you get to keep custom traits?

One of the few things I was hoping for was for Dark Technomancers to be kicked through the doors of oblivion. Now I might not even get that.

That article was terrible. They really had nothing good they could show off, lol.

Still no REAL information.

Guess we get that next week.

The Crusade stuff sounds more interesting than I expected, but who can tell when the article seems designed to be vague?

Crispy78 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
whilest i can understand the maybee you get to keep custom traits?


we still haven't seen a single new model beyond lelith right?

Nope, no sign of anything beyond her.

We are not marines, a eldar release in a year is even more than expected


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 bullyboy wrote:
That article was terrible. They really had nothing good they could show off, lol.

This is really bothering me, it means they put 0 effort in it, otherwise we would see an article a day on how the new codex is awesome

It is a pure filler article. With the drawn out release schedule and everything that is happening it appears that they are desperate to put something out in vain attempt to drum interest.

 Eldarsif wrote:
It is a pure filler article. With the drawn out release schedule and everything that is happening it appears that they are desperate to put something out in vain attempt to drum interest.

A pity there's nothing interesting in the codex, otherwise they could have used that.

Not Online!!! wrote:
whilest i can understand the maybee you get to keep custom traits?


we still haven't seen a single new model beyond lelith right?

Those custom traits were straight garbage as a whole.

I thought about going back to other dex prereleases and seeing if all of the articles that contain actual information were in the week before pre-release.

I think there's a chance they may have been.

I mean, we've seen Some real info- Piety and Pain got a video; we've seen profiles for 4 units (though not all the special rules for them, which made the reveals feel... Empty).

But I think what I need most is to know how Obsessions work in mixed detachments. I really think that is the biggest thing that's happening this Codex, and GW needs to tell us how it's going to work.

Honestly, I'm more interested in learning whether the entire HQ section is still hot garbage.

PenitentJake wrote:

But I think what I need most is to know how Obsessions work in mixed detachments. I really think that is the biggest thing that's happening this Codex, and GW needs to tell us how it's going to work.

That's pretty easy to guess. <Kabal> units get Kabal Obsessions, <Wych Cult> units get Wych Cult Obsessions, and <Haemunculus Coven> units get Haemonculus Coven Obsessions, the same as it works now, with the only difference is that you can mix them in a single Detachment without losing the Obsessions.

 vipoid wrote:
Honestly, I'm more interested in learning whether the entire HQ section is still hot garbage.

Without new models, how can it not be?

 Tyran wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:

But I think what I need most is to know how Obsessions work in mixed detachments. I really think that is the biggest thing that's happening this Codex, and GW needs to tell us how it's going to work.

That's pretty easy to guess. <Kabal> units get Kabal Obsessions, <Wych Cult> units get Wych Cult Obsessions, and <Haemunculus Coven> units get Haemonculus Coven Obsessions, the same as it works now, with the only difference is that you can mix them in a single Detachment without losing the Obsessions.

Because its a xenos army, I give it even odds between that, and "you get to choose one Kabal, or one Cult, or one Coven for each detachment, and any units with the correct keyword benefit but other units get no special rules but don't break traits."

GW REALLY seems to think it's fair and fun and cool for units with no army wide rules to go up against armies with seven layer bean dip special rules.I know for me it's incredibly fun to take my GSC where all vehicles, all brood brothers, and all genestealer units get no traits, and play them against marines who get to reroll morale, rapid fire at full range, get +1A on the charge, get custom chapter tactics, -1AP on a bunch of weapons each turn, and get a superdoctrine.

 Ordana wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Honestly, I'm more interested in learning whether the entire HQ section is still hot garbage.

Without new models, how can it not be?

Because the 3 generic HQ choices could be given a ton of options and wargear to make up for it.

Look at what was achieved for Harlequin characters just by allowing them to swap out their standard auras/abilities for alternatives. That could easily be done for Dark Eldar.

Same with wargear, it would take very little effort to expand the available selection (and, shock of all shocks, make the stuff actually worth taking - so that, for example, the Haemonculus isn't left with the Electrocorrosive Whip and 8 other weapons that are all objectively worse than the Electrocorrosive Whip).

They could add mobility options even without adding new models. They could do what they did with Crypteks and have a pile of Arcane Wargear or Gifts of the Haemonculi or whatever they want to call them, which could include a special hover pack or wings or any such. Plus all manner of other options for them to choose from.

They could allow HQs to buff units beyond their own subfaction (so that you can take a Haemonculus as the leader of a Kabal army, for example, without him being functionally useless).

Finally, there's the possibility of Stratagems. They could make Archons Dracons by default and then give DE a Stratagem to upgrade one to an Archon, with better stats and such. Same with upgrading a Haemonculus to a Haemonculus Ancient.

In essence, they could easily make DE's tiny selection of HQs actually feel far more diverse and varied than the models alone would suggest.

But no, that would take precious time away from developing Primaris Lieutenant #688261.

Took the words right out of my typing fingers Scotsman.

Here's hoping not only that they get it right for DE, but ALSO that they go on to fix it for GSC too!

PenitentJake wrote:
Took the words right out of my typing fingers Scotsman.

Here's hoping not only that they get it right for DE, but ALSO that they go on to fix it for GSC too!

GW has a doctrine they follow when it comes to what fluff translates to in terms of rules.

Is your army from codex space marine? Your fluff informs what rules you do get. Specialized units are still space marines, therefore everything gets CORE. heavy weapons guys are still space marines, therefore everybody gets +1A on the charge. Allied space marines are still battle brothers, therfore you get to take allies and keep your doctrine rules. Successor chapters are descended from the first founding chapters, therefore they get to keep all supplement rules and stratagems and relics.

Is your army not from codex space marines? your fluff informs what rules you don't get. Sorry bro, by fluff these necrons are part of the 'triarch' so they don't get subfaction traits or CORE, for some reason the aura buffs can't benefit this particular unit called Praetorians in the same way they can benefit this other unit called Lychguard. No, the praetorians dont get a points discount to account for losing out on all these benefits, don't be an idiot. Sorry, you chose to make your Orkz a specialist mob, that means they're for some reason no longer part of a Clan and don't get the relics traits strats auras etc from the clans. oooooh, you wanted your guard to have Militarum Tempestus stuff? Afraid that means you're not allowed to use a solid 50% of your codex, tough luck fluff says they don't actually use those tanks and stuff. I mean look fair's fair we don't let Blood Angels keep their specialist dreadnought types and also take the regular dreadno - oh, wait, we do actually do that, in case they want to use regular dreadnoughts. Sorry GSC player, it's called a genestealer CULT trait, and your purestrains aren't part of the CULT they're the genestealers THEMSELVES, and no, they don't get a hive fleet trait either, they're purestrains from the pure genetic lineage of specifically the genestealers. And we do represent that by them therefore not getting any trait, and being worse than hive fleet genestealers, who get to be troops, and get a trait, and get way better stratagems and rules and stuff.

 vipoid wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/03/11/the-best-drukhari-codex-ever-here-are-5-new-reasons-why/

Good News!

Remember all the Dark Eldar stratagems from Blood of the Phoenix? You know, the ones that never existed because GW couldn't be arsed putting even the smallest iota of effort into our faction?

Well it's official - we get to keep every last one of those non-existent statagems.

That article doesn't mention BotP at all. It just says new strats. Did I miss something?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:
A pity there's nothing interesting in the codex, otherwise they could have used that.

I imagine we'll see the typical articles when it is coming up from pre-order.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/03/11/the-best-drukhari-codex-ever-here-are-5-new-reasons-why/

Good News!

Remember all the Dark Eldar stratagems from Blood of the Phoenix? You know, the ones that never existed because GW couldn't be arsed putting even the smallest iota of effort into our faction?

Well it's official - we get to keep every last one of those non-existent statagems.

That article doesn't mention BotP at all. It just says new strats. Did I miss something?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:
A pity there's nothing interesting in the codex, otherwise they could have used that.

I imagine we'll see the typical articles when it is coming up from pre-order.

Did you miss something? Nope. Just a lot of Eldar players wish listing and reading into the announcement.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:

But I think what I need most is to know how Obsessions work in mixed detachments. I really think that is the biggest thing that's happening this Codex, and GW needs to tell us how it's going to work.

That's pretty easy to guess. <Kabal> units get Kabal Obsessions, <Wych Cult> units get Wych Cult Obsessions, and <Haemunculus Coven> units get Haemonculus Coven Obsessions, the same as it works now, with the only difference is that you can mix them in a single Detachment without losing the Obsessions.

Because its a xenos army, I give it even odds between that, and "you get to choose one Kabal, or one Cult, or one Coven for each detachment, and any units with the correct keyword benefit but other units get no special rules but don't break traits."

GW REALLY seems to think it's fair and fun and cool for units with no army wide rules to go up against armies with seven layer bean dip special rules.I know for me it's incredibly fun to take my GSC where all vehicles, all brood brothers, and all genestealer units get no traits, and play them against marines who get to reroll morale, rapid fire at full range, get +1A on the charge, get custom chapter tactics, -1AP on a bunch of weapons each turn, and get a superdoctrine.

Yep - GW just doesn't get this. each army needs to be getting an equal amount of free rules and you can't use free rules to fix bad units. I mean - it worked well with marines in 8.5 if you just ignore the fact some extremely OP supplements came out at the same time but ideally units should be balanced around points and a certain amount of "bonus/free" rules should be included in that cost. There is just no world in which one army is getting free rules and the other isn't and the game is going to be even remotely balanced.

@Tamwulf the article got edited. It used to mention that we would be getting all the stratagems from Psychic awakening. There were no stratagems in the psychic awakening. No need for your snide remarks.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

That article doesn't mention BotP at all. It just says new strats. Did I miss something?

Only that the WarCom article has been edited.

It originally said "Alongside the pick of those from the current Drukhari codex and Blood of the Phoenix, the new codex features a whole host of new Stratagems."

The underlined part has since been removed.

I think it is quite hilarious that one of the top five (!) reasons why this will be the best DE codex ever is that... you can field everything from it and don't get hamstrung by it. It should never have been any different in the first place! Selling it as one of the best innovations of the upcoming book is ridiculous at best.

Isn't this standard?

I remember thinking DG were going to be kind of meh until the reveals actually started.

Tyel wrote:
Isn't this standard?

I remember thinking DG were going to be kind of meh until the reveals actually started.

Even with the reveals.

People cried salt over these forums when most of the DG abilities were previewed. And next week with the Drukhari Reviews the same will happen.

Best advice that I was given the other day was just not to read much on the Internet and judge the Codex when the reveal hits (20th probably, on Youtube).

Who knows, maybe the book is just gakky. But maybe not.

I really hope we get some good stuff in this edition, but I don't have much hope based on what I've seen. The changes to the Splinter Cannon killed my hype for the new book. I'm not even sure what to hope for as far as changes, but with any luck there's something in the book that will scare my groups DG player.

They didn't even say you can mix within detachments, just that it'd be "easier than before" to field mixed armies. For all we know, all that means is that the old take three patrols + get refunded CP is being expanded so you can take one free detachment of each subpart - whether a patrol or something else, and whether you take two or three - but they still have to be kept totally separate.

yukishiro1 wrote:
They didn't even say you can mix within detachments, just that it'd be "easier than before" to field mixed armies. For all we know, all that means is that the old take three patrols + get refunded CP is being expanded so you can take one free detachment of each subpart - whether a patrol or something else, and whether you take two or three - but they still have to be kept totally separate.

Yea this would probably make the most sense.

yukishiro1 wrote:
They didn't even say you can mix within detachments, just that it'd be "easier than before" to field mixed armies. For all we know, all that means is that the old take three patrols + get refunded CP is being expanded so you can take one free detachment of each subpart - whether a patrol or something else, and whether you take two or three - but they still have to be kept totally separate.

I can still hold out some hope that one, just one, xenos faction gets a bit more flexibility than loyalist marines do in one area when it comes to their armywide abilities. But it is a faint hope.

Maybe GW will realize that Dark Eldar are intended to be a fractious, selfish, unsynergistic army stylistically, and make up for that with abilities like the current Combat Drugs - individual unit buffs you can powergame but which necessitate you effectively either screwing over some of your units, or taking a large menagerie of different units within the Wych Cult framework to optimally use the different buffs - including a Beastmaster and some Beasts because they actually use +2LD drugs well instead of taking another unit of Reavers or Wyches, taking one unit of wyches with 3 Shardnets and a Power Sword to take advantage of +1S drugs and another wych squad with 1 Shardnet 2 Gauntlets and an Agonizer to use +1A drugs.

And maybe they'll realize that because Archons, Succubi, and Haemonculi can only buff a couple of potential units, they can be made into strong individualistic HQs or they can customize those buffs to be really useful with the often just one single unit type they now will affect, like how the new Drazar's buff that only affects Incubi is really in line with what Incubi want to be doing on the battlefield, and a unit of Incubi with Drazar there to boost them up is much more of a different beast than the usual dedicated anti-MEQ role Incubi fill.

Boy I can hope, but the new necron codex really doesn't give me a ton of confidence with just how much rules spaghetti they threw at the wall to try and sell those new cryptek variants, and just how much of it fell back onto the floor.

"here's the new spookytek! We've leveraged the AWESOME new morale system in 9th to give him a truly terrifying ability - -1 to LD AND -1 to Attrition tests!!! Wow! Apropos of nothing, here's the new change to the Angels of Death rule we've been working on - whoops, that new ability doesn't work."

You also can't trust warhammer community content even when it does specifically make a claim. Not that long ago, we had that debacle where the warhammer community article claimed you could include all Inquisition forces in other detachments without breaking them, only for the book to come out and to find out that no, it was only Inquisitors, just like before. Incredibly, they still have the old article up, still falsely advertising a feature that doesn't exist, despite multiple emails asking them correct it.

All Inquisition forces can be added into an Imperium Detachment without other units losing their Detachment abilities.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/23/pariah-inquisition-rulesgw-homepage-post-1/

Unfortunately, those articles are just marketing spin, you can't assume their content is right even when it makes particular claims, much less when it makes general, vague statements.

I guess it might be a bit confusing for new players, but it really wouldn't be hard to go:

"This Battalion is a Black Heart/Strife/Coven of 12 Detachment. Therefore Kabal/Cult/Coven units get their respective rule".

While also putting *all* mercenary units into one of the above, because pretending Scourge would be mad broken if say they rerolled 1s to wound with splinter carbines is comedy gold. "No, pls, Mandrakes with a 4++ (you know its getting nerfed) would literally break the game".

Tyel wrote:
I guess it might be a bit confusing for new players, but it really wouldn't be hard to go:

"This Battalion is a Black Heart/Strife/Coven of 12 Detachment. Therefore Kabal/Cult/Coven units get their respective rule".

Agree 100% and hope this is how they decide to do it.

Tyel wrote:

While also putting *all* mercenary units into one of the above, because pretending Scourge would be mad broken if say they rerolled 1s to wound with splinter carbines is comedy gold. "No, pls, Mandrakes with a 4++ (you know its getting nerfed) would literally break the game".

While I agree that giving Mercs this access wouldn't make them broken, it was probably done for fluff reasons more than balance. Mercs are not part of Kabals, Cults or Covens; they don't train with them, they don't live with them, they don't learn from them or teach them. Literally the only time they work together is when they are paid, and their loyalty is only as deep as the pockets of their employers. There is no fluff reason why they would fight in a manner similar to their employer, so if you did want to give them access to Obsessions, you'd have to find a way to make that fluffy.

It's a lot like the Raiding force rules that way: despite the fact it was awkward game-wise (especially in 9th where game size detachment limits crippled the system), it did make sense from a fluff perspective. I have since learned to see that there are certainly fluffy circumstances that could justify intra-faction Obsession sharing. And yeah, I suppose that particular Covens, Kabals, or Cults could have long term allegiances written into their fluff... But then you faction-lock your Mercs.

One way they could handle both issues is create a Pregame Strat like this:

Long-Term Alliance: 1-3 CP

Use this strategem before the first Battle Round. For each Command point spent, you can choose an additional sub-faction or Mercenary group to benefit from your Warlord's Obsession. If you choose a sub-faction which already has an Obsession, it is replaced by the Warlord's Obsession.

Then it becomes grounded in the Fluff. If you're a Crusade player, it would be even cooler, because purchasing the ability with Requisition points makes it permanent, so the alliance represented by the rule is a persistent part of the story. If it was me, when I built the terrain to represent my warlord's base, I would decide which Commorragh pieces I needed: got an alliance with a Wych Cult? Better have an Arena. Want some Mandrakes? Where's your gate to Aelindrach? And no self respecting pack of Scourges will work with anyone unless they have an Aerie.

The problem is its such a limiting factor. I really don't see why you should pay CP to get a bonus when almost every other faction's units in the game (sorry GSC) get one for just showing up.

They did this with Ynnari Incubi and it just felt like a massive "screw you" (kind of like the Codex in general, but...). I mean did anyone think giving Incubi strength from death in an incredibly shooting orientated edition was going to be mad overpowered, just because they *didn't* get a Kabal trait which would have been very marginally helpful anyway?

Arguments on fluff are never convincing - because you can justify (and change) anything you like. So I tend to think game mechanics predominate. GW made the "Mercenaries" (who were not meaningfully mercenaries imo until the codex) nothing in particular so you could put them in any detachment. If for example Mandrakes were in Covens then its another limiter on running them - as now you need a Haemonculus, maybe some wracks etc. Ditto if say Incubi and Scourge were put in Kabals.

If (and it may not happen) that limitation is gone - and you can throw whatever DE units into whatever DE detachment you like - then the reason these units shouldn't get a faction trait is just crap player-alienating design. But since we know what's happened with Necrons I'm not holding out. It might not be necessary - Incubi may well blend things with 3 WS2+ S5 AP-3 2 damage attacks for 16 points. But its still going to grate.

PenitentJake wrote:

While I agree that giving Mercs this access wouldn't make them broken, it was probably done for fluff reasons more than balance. Mercs are not part of Kabals, Cults or Covens; they don't train with them, they don't live with them, they don't learn from them or teach them. Literally the only time they work together is when they are paid, and their loyalty is only as deep as the pockets of their employers. There is no fluff reason why they would fight in a manner similar to their employer, so if you did want to give them access to Obsessions, you'd have to find a way to make that fluffy.

It's a lot like the Raiding force rules that way: despite the fact it was awkward game-wise (especially in 9th where game size detachment limits crippled the system), it did make sense from a fluff perspective. I have since learned to see that there are certainly fluffy circumstances that could justify intra-faction Obsession sharing. And yeah, I suppose that particular Covens, Kabals, or Cults could have long term allegiances written into their fluff... But then you faction-lock your Mercs.

One way they could handle both issues is create a Pregame Strat like this:

Long-Term Alliance: 1-3 CP

Use this strategem before the first Battle Round. For each Command point spent, you can choose an additional sub-faction or Mercenary group to benefit from your Warlord's Obsession. If you choose a sub-faction which already has an Obsession, it is replaced by the Warlord's Obsession.

Then it becomes grounded in the Fluff. If you're a Crusade player, it would be even cooler, because purchasing the ability with Requisition points makes it permanent, so the alliance represented by the rule is a persistent part of the story. If it was me, when I built the terrain to represent my warlord's base, I would decide which Commorragh pieces I needed: got an alliance with a Wych Cult? Better have an Arena. Want some Mandrakes? Where's your gate to Aelindrach? And no self respecting pack of Scourges will work with anyone unless they have an Aerie.

I'm going to quote scotsman here because I think he put it a lot better than I can:

the_scotsman wrote:

Is your army from codex space marine? Your fluff informs what rules you do get. Specialized units are still space marines, therefore everything gets CORE. heavy weapons guys are still space marines, therefore everybody gets +1A on the charge. Allied space marines are still battle brothers, therfore you get to take allies and keep your doctrine rules. Successor chapters are descended from the first founding chapters, therefore they get to keep all supplement rules and stratagems and relics.

Is your army not from codex space marines? your fluff informs what rules you don't get. Sorry bro, by fluff these necrons are part of the 'triarch' so they don't get subfaction traits or CORE, for some reason the aura buffs can't benefit this particular unit called Praetorians in the same way they can benefit this other unit called Lychguard. No, the praetorians dont get a points discount to account for losing out on all these benefits, don't be an idiot. Sorry, you chose to make your Orkz a specialist mob, that means they're for some reason no longer part of a Clan and don't get the relics traits strats auras etc from the clans. oooooh, you wanted your guard to have Militarum Tempestus stuff? Afraid that means you're not allowed to use a solid 50% of your codex, tough luck fluff says they don't actually use those tanks and stuff. I mean look fair's fair we don't let Blood Angels keep their specialist dreadnought types and also take the regular dreadno - oh, wait, we do actually do that, in case they want to use regular dreadnoughts. Sorry GSC player, it's called a genestealer CULT trait, and your purestrains aren't part of the CULT they're the genestealers THEMSELVES, and no, they don't get a hive fleet trait either, they're purestrains from the pure genetic lineage of specifically the genestealers. And we do represent that by them therefore not getting any trait, and being worse than hive fleet genestealers, who get to be troops, and get a trait, and get way better stratagems and rules and stuff.

^
I think he's completely right about this. It's ridiculous that SM fluff is used to justify them getting rules on top of rules on top of rues, yet our fluff is used only to justify us *not* getting rules.

Sorry but the idea that we have to use CPs just to unlock our own fething army rules is just insulting.

I don't even see why we need to be split up this way in the first place. It just turns us into 3 separate armies, each with no options.

Are we not limited enough already without being split into 3 sodding subfactions with no synergy or cross-compatibility whatsoever?


Also, to be clear, it's not just a matter of mechanical strength but also how the army feels. The fact that putting an Archon with Incubi or Mandrakes grants them 0 benefits (not even his crappy aura) just feels bad. It's not fun when your HQs appear to have been designed to support an army that doesn't actually exist. And while you can argue that Incubi have Drazhar (I don't think it's a good argument, but whatever), there isn't a single HQ that supports Mandrakes or Scourges. So if GW can't be arsed making a Mandrake Prince or a Scourge Lord, the least they can do is allow our existing HQs to synergise with them.

Tyel wrote:
The problem is its such a limiting factor. I really don't see why you should pay CP to get a bonus when almost every other faction's units in the game (sorry GSC) get one for just showing up.

Agree 100%. I think it would have been interesting if GW had built little limitations like this into all factions; if it's done fairly, it is an interesting way to differentiate factions and create meaningful differences. I say "interesting" rather than "good," because whether or not it worked would all be in the execution- it would have equal potential to be terrible.

Tyel wrote:

They did this with Ynnari Incubi and it just felt like a massive "screw you" (kind of like the Codex in general, but...). I mean did anyone think giving Incubi strength from death in an incredibly shooting orientated edition was going to be mad overpowered, just because they *didn't* get a Kabal trait which would have been very marginally helpful anyway?

Funny you should mention that- I kinda liked the rule, my only problem is that nerfed Strength from Death is a terrible ability. If the trait had been worth having, the strat would have been awesome. And I thought it was really cool that Incubi, with their isolation from larger Drukhari society represented by their lack of access to Obsessions, could be so embraced by the Ynarri that they would have a sense of kinship and loyalty, represented by their access to the trait. Personally, I thought the strat should have applied to Banshees, as they were the ones who actually fought on Yvraine's side, or that at the very least, the trait should have been available to them in addition to the Incubi.

Of course, my perspective is horribly skewed by the fact that I am a narrative player who plays Crusade almost exclusively and really doesn't care whether I win or lose, as long as the story is a good one. The tournament/ competitive mindset is pretty alien to me- I get it, but I just don't understand why anyone would choose it over immersive Crusade/ campaign/ narrative play unless they genuinely couldn't find anyone else who wanted to play that way.

From a game mechanics point of view though, I do agree with you, especially since these types of restrictions aren't fairly distributed between all factions.

Tyel wrote:

Arguments on fluff are never convincing - because you can justify (and change) anything you like. So I tend to think game mechanics predominate.

I agree that mechanics have to predominate. I still like rules to reflect fluff, but not at the expense of playability and fairness. I wish it was easier to get both.

Tyel wrote:

But since we know what's happened with Necrons I'm not holding out.

Unfortunately, this is also a fair, and likely assessment.

 vipoid wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

That article doesn't mention BotP at all. It just says new strats. Did I miss something?

Only that the WarCom article has been edited.

It originally said "Alongside the pick of those from the current Drukhari codex and Blood of the Phoenix, the new codex features a whole host of new Stratagems."

The underlined part has since been removed.

There is a certain sad comedy to the fact that even the writer of the article probably assumed DE got some new starts during PA. I find that very telling and not in a good way. My fear rises for the dark city denizens.

Dark eldar is, and always has been, an army of various scattered mercenary microfactions brought together.

Hellions are their own gangs.

Reavers are their own gangs.

If anyone can explain to my why it's fluffy that a Sslyth, a thing that's not even a fething dark eldar at all, has <kabal> but scourges for some reason are not sufficiently...um...paid by the...same archon that presumably hired the Sslyth? then I'll owe you a donut.

The Archon OWNS the Sslyth; it's a slave. It does exactly what the Archon tells it to do, because if it doesn't, it will be killed and no one will miss it.

The Scourge belongs to a flock, who may even haunt the Archon's spire. If he kills it, at the very least, he is unlikely to ever receive the aid of that flock again, and if the flock is powerful, he may create a situation where the flock becomes an enemy, perhaps allying with other enemies.

Hellions and Reavers can certainly be their own gangs, but many make their living in the arena, which means playing nice with Cults.

PenitentJake wrote:
The Archon OWNS the Sslyth; it's a slave. It does exactly what the Archon tells it to do, because if it doesn't, it will be killed and no one will miss it.

Yeah I'm going to point out that the Sslyths are mercenaries. They're not a slave race, they get paid like incubi to be a bodyguard.

My mistake.

Not sure the relationship is as consequential as the relationship with sub-factions that live in Commorragh, but I suppose if they are mercs, it could be.

Tyel wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Not at all b.c you have characters to give them out and units to generate more and even spread them. A beast pack starting with 2, a Incubi starting with 1, then if the Beasts dies Baron would take the token and move them to the Wych unit near by.

Yes it can be a win more, but honestly doesn't that fit with DE? Killing on the table could also show gathering of slaves, which would be more token no?

Its been a while so my memory may not be exact, but as the_scotsman said, you got them from killing units. So... you are sort of compounding success. If you kill something your unit becomes better, if you failed for whatever reason (Knights, Custodes, Death Guard, some Marine builds perhaps all being reasonable shouts) you are going to be left sort of.. stationary.

Since you are getting the buff on killing units (or wounds or whatever, skew remains) rather than turn order, I think the buffs would need to be more powerful - but as a result the cost of not having them would be higher.

So depends on your mentality really. If you like "when it works, it really works" thats fine. But it tends to be harder to balance, and I think would *tend* to result in DE being weak against the good factions. Unless good is MSU spam or something like that. (It wouldn't for example necesarilly be the worst versus Harlequins for instance.)

Basically I'm skeptical you can balance "Marines get Doctrines all the time. Sisters get... whatever their magic buffs are called. Necrons drew the xenos straw on Command Protocols but they are always up if a character's nearby... and DE lose regular PFP for a old system where some units start with a buff and others get more depending on kills".

A lot of units could start with 1, some could give out some too. You could start the game with 3-4 units with a couple if you wanted too.

Tyel wrote:
The problem is its such a limiting factor. I really don't see why you should pay CP to get a bonus when almost every other faction's units in the game (sorry GSC) get one for just showing up.

.

Uh you realize right there's plenty units beside gsc who don'tt get regiment/chapter/klan/whatever bonuses? I play neither gsc nor de yet 5/5 of my armies deal without such bonuses. Some of those are also staple of hard lists in hard faction.

tneva82 wrote:

Tyel wrote:
The problem is its such a limiting factor. I really don't see why you should pay CP to get a bonus when almost every other faction's units in the game (sorry GSC) get one for just showing up.

.

Uh you realize right there's plenty units beside gsc who don'tt get regiment/chapter/klan/whatever bonuses? I play neither gsc nor de yet 5/5 of my armies deal without such bonuses. Some of those are also staple of hard lists in hard faction.

Do you have any actual examples?

Because it's not Super Doctrine or Doctrine equivalents. GSC Genestealers don't get basic chapter tactics.

 JNAProductions wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Tyel wrote:
The problem is its such a limiting factor. I really don't see why you should pay CP to get a bonus when almost every other faction's units in the game (sorry GSC) get one for just showing up.

.

Uh you realize right there's plenty units beside gsc who don'tt get regiment/chapter/klan/whatever bonuses? I play neither gsc nor de yet 5/5 of my armies deal without such bonuses. Some of those are also staple of hard lists in hard faction.

Do you have any actual examples?

Because it's not Super Doctrine or Doctrine equivalents. GSC Genestealers don't get basic chapter tactics.

Grots and cultists come to mind for <clan> and <legion>.
A wide assortment of imperial guard things don't get <regiment>.
C'tan and Triach stuff don't get <dynasty>.

 Denegaar wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Isn't this standard?

I remember thinking DG were going to be kind of meh until the reveals actually started.

Even with the reveals.

People cried salt over these forums when most of the DG abilities were previewed. And next week with the Drukhari Reviews the same will happen.

Best advice that I was given the other day was just not to read much on the Internet and judge the Codex when the reveal hits (20th probably, on Youtube).

Who knows, maybe the book is just gakky. But maybe not.

Pretty much what I am going to do. The reveals have been so sparse that you can't really tell anything except +1 attack on most units and Splinter Cannon is now D2. Everything else is unknown and after the DG release I am cautiously optimistic.

I didn't mean to imply GSC were the only faction to experience this - just that, in my view at least, they suffer from it more.

Genestealers and Patriarch? No.
Vehicles? No.
Brood Brothers? No.

Leading to the brilliance of half a custom chapter tactic that applied literally for a Magus (1 per detachment) and that's it.

Voss wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Tyel wrote:
The problem is its such a limiting factor. I really don't see why you should pay CP to get a bonus when almost every other faction's units in the game (sorry GSC) get one for just showing up.

.

Uh you realize right there's plenty units beside gsc who don'tt get regiment/chapter/klan/whatever bonuses? I play neither gsc nor de yet 5/5 of my armies deal without such bonuses. Some of those are also staple of hard lists in hard faction.

Do you have any actual examples?

Because it's not Super Doctrine or Doctrine equivalents. GSC Genestealers don't get basic chapter tactics.

Grots and cultists come to mind for <clan> and <legion>.
A wide assortment of imperial guard things don't get <regiment>.
C'tan and Triach stuff don't get <dynasty>.

Yes. Again. Non-marine factions that get rules based on fluff generally lose gak because of that fluff.

If youre marines, your fluff that youre a separate group within a faction means you get bonus rules on top of your chapter trait, like "can only be wounded on 4+"

If youre non-marines, your fluff means you just dont get dynasty/cult/clan traits.

PenitentJake wrote:

Funny you should mention that- I kinda liked the rule, my only problem is that nerfed Strength from Death is a terrible ability. If the trait had been worth having, the strat would have been awesome. And I thought it was really cool that Incubi, with their isolation from larger Drukhari society represented by their lack of access to Obsessions, could be so embraced by the Ynarri that they would have a sense of kinship and loyalty, represented by their access to the trait. Personally, I thought the strat should have applied to Banshees, as they were the ones who actually fought on Yvraine's side, or that at the very least, the trait should have been available to them in addition to the Incubi.

What? Banshees already get SfD if they're Ynnari, Incubi are literally the only unit you can take in an Ynnari detachment that don't get SfD as standard. And Incubi were Yvraines first followers along with her Bloodbrides from the Cult she was with.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/03/12/get-a-first-look-inside-the-book-of-rust/
Looks like the Drukhari rules in the new supplement book are just Supplement Cult of Strife. So if you prefer Coven or Kabal, sucks to be you.

Servitors don't get Chapter Tactics, and they are marines, neither do Marines with the Beast keyword.

 Tyran wrote:
Servitors don't get Chapter Tactics, and they are marines, neither do Marines with the Beast keyword.

What Marines have the Beast Keyword?

Or an alternate take, If you are a cult of strife player, sucks to be you having to buy 2 books to play your army.

Needing to buy a full priced book for 4 pages of rules (which im sure 1 page is relevent, the rest is probably artwork, crusade and other gak)

 warmaster21 wrote:
Or an alternate take, If you are a cult of strife player, sucks to be you having to buy 2 books to play your army.

Needing to buy a full priced book for 4 pages of rules (which im sure 1 page is relevent, the rest is probably artwork, crusade and other gak)

I understand the point of view, but as a Drukhari player I don't begrudge the opportunity to spend money on my hobby, my beef with GW is them not bringing out stuff for my chosen faction.

That said, I don't know whether to read the article as ...."if you want Cult of Strife the rules will be in The Book of Rust", or "additional rules for Cult of Strife will be in The Book of Rust"

 Imateria wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:

Funny you should mention that- I kinda liked the rule, my only problem is that nerfed Strength from Death is a terrible ability. If the trait had been worth having, the strat would have been awesome. And I thought it was really cool that Incubi, with their isolation from larger Drukhari society represented by their lack of access to Obsessions, could be so embraced by the Ynarri that they would have a sense of kinship and loyalty, represented by their access to the trait. Personally, I thought the strat should have applied to Banshees, as they were the ones who actually fought on Yvraine's side, or that at the very least, the trait should have been available to them in addition to the Incubi.

What? Banshees already get SfD if they're Ynnari, Incubi are literally the only unit you can take in an Ynnari detachment that don't get SfD as standard. And Incubi were Yvraines first followers along with her Bloodbrides from the Cult she was with.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/03/12/get-a-first-look-inside-the-book-of-rust/
Looks like the Drukhari rules in the new supplement book are just Supplement Cult of Strife. So if you prefer Coven or Kabal, sucks to be you.

Yeaaaa....I think most people will be better off getting a pen and paper and writing down the parts they need from the reviews. Good grief.

 warmaster21 wrote:
Or an alternate take, If you are a cult of strife player, sucks to be you having to buy 2 books to play your army.

Needing to buy a full priced book for 4 pages of rules (which im sure 1 page is relevent, the rest is probably artwork, crusade and other gak)

Cult of Strife will have enough in the dex to be solid. To say NEED is disingenuous; the only people who NEED anything outside a Codex are meta-chasers and loyalists who choose to play an army with a supplement. The rest of us buy it because we WANT it.

And I'm sorry you have a low opinion of Crusade, but quite frankly, it's the only way I'm interested in playing. There may not be as many people playing Crusade as there are matched, especially on Dakka, but our game is just as valid as yours. I didn't expect much Crusade content in this book, because we're getting a separate mission pack for Crusade, but I'm happy to see there's a bit of stuff there for us too.

 harlokin wrote:
That said, I don't know whether to read the arcticle as ...."if you want Cult of Strife the rules will be in The Book of Rust", or "additional rules for Cult of Strife will be in The Book of Rust"

I'm going with the former. The DE book was intended to be out before now and this would tack on.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
That said, I don't know whether to read the arcticle as ...."if you want Cult of Strife the rules will be in The Book of Rust", or "additional rules for Cult of Strife will be in The Book of Rust"

I'm going with the former. The DE book was intended to be out before now and this would tack on.

It is definitely additional rules. Piety and Pain was always going to be released with the dex, and Lelith's in the box. If she's in the box, she'll be in the dex, and if she is the Cult of Strife must also be there. There's no way they would write a dex without including Cult of Strife content.

If they did, sell your stock, because that would truly be the beginning of the end... And that's coming from a GW apologist.

PenitentJake wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
That said, I don't know whether to read the arcticle as ...."if you want Cult of Strife the rules will be in The Book of Rust", or "additional rules for Cult of Strife will be in The Book of Rust"

I'm going with the former. The DE book was intended to be out before now and this would tack on.

It is definitely additional rules. Piety and Pain was always going to be released with the dex, and Lelith's in the box. If she's in the box, she'll be in the dex, and if she is the Cult of Strife must also be there. There's no way they would write a dex without including Cult of Strife content.

If they did, sell your stock, because that would truly be the beginning of the end... And that's coming from a GW apologist.

Yea I feel similarly, but my gut is just going the other direction at the moment.

I tend to agree for similar reasons...Cult of Strife are the biggest Wych Cult, you cant just leave them out of the codex.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:

Funny you should mention that- I kinda liked the rule, my only problem is that nerfed Strength from Death is a terrible ability. If the trait had been worth having, the strat would have been awesome. And I thought it was really cool that Incubi, with their isolation from larger Drukhari society represented by their lack of access to Obsessions, could be so embraced by the Ynarri that they would have a sense of kinship and loyalty, represented by their access to the trait. Personally, I thought the strat should have applied to Banshees, as they were the ones who actually fought on Yvraine's side, or that at the very least, the trait should have been available to them in addition to the Incubi.

What? Banshees already get SfD if they're Ynnari, Incubi are literally the only unit you can take in an Ynnari detachment that don't get SfD as standard. And Incubi were Yvraines first followers along with her Bloodbrides from the Cult she was with.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/03/12/get-a-first-look-inside-the-book-of-rust/
Looks like the Drukhari rules in the new supplement book are just Supplement Cult of Strife. So if you prefer Coven or Kabal, sucks to be you.

Yeaaaa....I think most people will be better off getting a pen and paper and writing down the parts they need from the reviews. Good grief.

A friend of mine has his AdMech painted up in Metalica colours and use House Raven with them so I know he's getting the book, I can just take a photo of the pages I need and be done with it. There is so little content in this book for a Drukhari player that it's not worth buying.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 harlokin wrote:
I tend to agree for similar reasons...Cult of Strife are the biggest Wych Cult, you can just leave them out of the codex.

You really can't, there's so little fluff around any of the other Cults that we'd only be left with 2 Cult traits and no real candidate to make a 3rd.

I highly doubt they'll be left out of the codex. This will just involve giving them moar stuff.

I.E. "When you reach the Excruciating Doctrine, all Cult of Strife units do an extra damage on a turn they charged. Yeah, whose saying Lelith sucks now? Buy our book ya scrubs".

 Imateria wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
Servitors don't get Chapter Tactics, and they are marines, neither do Marines with the Beast keyword.

What Marines have the Beast Keyword?

Fenrisian wolves.

Well...if we approach it like marines - the chapter rule is in there as well as a trait and relic. Then specific strats and expanded options are in the Supplement. It could be similar to that with the exception that all the datasheets are still codex proper.

 Imateria wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
I tend to agree for similar reasons...Cult of Strife are the biggest Wych Cult, you can just leave them out of the codex.

You really can't, there's so little fluff around any of the other Cults that we'd only be left with 2 Cult traits and no real candidate to make a 3rd.

I meant can't ...I blame my afternoon beer

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Yeaaaa....I think most people will be better off getting a pen and paper and writing down the parts they need from the reviews. Good grief.

Well, definitely not red grief...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Imateria wrote:
You really can't, there's so little fluff around any of the other Cults that we'd only be left with 2 Cult traits and no real candidate to make a 3rd.

The Blade Denied are *right* there! (And have a really neat schtick!)

Though the Seventh Woe and Pain Eternal are *also* represented on the aged transfer sheet, I should note.

 Imateria wrote:

A friend of mine has his AdMech painted up in Metalica colours and use House Raven with them so I know he's getting the book, I can just take a photo of the pages I need and be done with it. There is so little content in this book for a Drukhari player that it's not worth buying.

Yeah, if you just want the Drukhari content and have no interest in the campaign or the bit of Crusade content that's in here, I totally agree.

I want the Crusade content, and I might play some campaign games... Not sure yet. The Ogryn/ Ratling defense of the Penal colony from February's White Dwarf struck me as being particularly cool, and a cool excuse to build an interesting prison table with Ratling sized tunnels between Ogryn cell blocks.

 warmaster21 wrote:
Or an alternate take, If you are a cult of strife player, sucks to be you having to buy 2 books to play your army.

Needing to buy a full priced book for 4 pages of rules (which im sure 1 page is relevent, the rest is probably artwork, crusade and other gak)

Are we larping in the alt universe where any rules content in any book isnt instantly available online and if you just want a small bit you cant get it except by buying the book?

the_scotsman wrote:

 warmaster21 wrote:
Or an alternate take, If you are a cult of strife player, sucks to be you having to buy 2 books to play your army.

Needing to buy a full priced book for 4 pages of rules (which im sure 1 page is relevent, the rest is probably artwork, crusade and other gak)

Are we larping in the alt universe where any rules content in any book isnt instantly available online and if you just want a small bit you cant get it except by buying the book?

I think we're trying not to encourage piracy, since that's, y'know, against the Terms of Service for Dakka.

 Octopoid wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 warmaster21 wrote:
Or an alternate take, If you are a cult of strife player, sucks to be you having to buy 2 books to play your army.

Needing to buy a full priced book for 4 pages of rules (which im sure 1 page is relevent, the rest is probably artwork, crusade and other gak)

Are we larping in the alt universe where any rules content in any book isnt instantly available online and if you just want a small bit you cant get it except by buying the book?

I think we're trying not to encourage piracy, since that's, y'know, against the Terms of Service for Dakka.

No need to pirate anything, we just need to watch the numerous videos that GW themselves greenlit from multiple content creators that litterally go film the new books page by page.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Octopoid wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 warmaster21 wrote:
Or an alternate take, If you are a cult of strife player, sucks to be you having to buy 2 books to play your army.

Needing to buy a full priced book for 4 pages of rules (which im sure 1 page is relevent, the rest is probably artwork, crusade and other gak)

Are we larping in the alt universe where any rules content in any book isnt instantly available online and if you just want a small bit you cant get it except by buying the book?

I think we're trying not to encourage piracy, since that's, y'know, against the Terms of Service for Dakka.

No need to pirate anything, we just need to watch the numerous videos that GW themselves greenlit from multiple content creators that litterally go film the new books page by page.

Exactly.

At most, what is Cult of Strife likely to be - Lelith Hesperax, one Obsession, one Warlord Trait, one or two Stratagems, and one Relic.

None of that is painful to get off Battlescribe if you aren't inclined to buy the book.

 Octopoid wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 warmaster21 wrote:
Or an alternate take, If you are a cult of strife player, sucks to be you having to buy 2 books to play your army.

Needing to buy a full priced book for 4 pages of rules (which im sure 1 page is relevent, the rest is probably artwork, crusade and other gak)

Are we larping in the alt universe where any rules content in any book isnt instantly available online and if you just want a small bit you cant get it except by buying the book?

I think we're trying not to encourage piracy, since that's, y'know, against the Terms of Service for Dakka.

....Are you under the impression that the various youtubers get together bimonthly on some sort of flying zeppelin craft and launch daring raids on the Games Workshop factories in china in order to mysteriously always seem to have the book ready to go when preorders go up?

I was kind of operating on the idea that Games Workshop mails them to them, but your concept I will admit is more exciting.

"Ocean's 40: K!"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 harlokin wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Octopoid wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 warmaster21 wrote:
Or an alternate take, If you are a cult of strife player, sucks to be you having to buy 2 books to play your army.

Needing to buy a full priced book for 4 pages of rules (which im sure 1 page is relevent, the rest is probably artwork, crusade and other gak)

Are we larping in the alt universe where any rules content in any book isnt instantly available online and if you just want a small bit you cant get it except by buying the book?

I think we're trying not to encourage piracy, since that's, y'know, against the Terms of Service for Dakka.

No need to pirate anything, we just need to watch the numerous videos that GW themselves greenlit from multiple content creators that litterally go film the new books page by page.

Exactly.

At most, what is Cult of Strife likely to be - Lelith Hesperax, one Obsession, one Warlord Trait, one or two Stratagems, and one Relic.

None of that is painful to get off Battlescribe if you aren't inclined to buy the book.

I'm guessing they'll have 6 traits, 6 relics, and some kind of unique gimmick that ties into whatever drukhari's new pure 1 faction bonus gimmick is.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Octopoid wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 warmaster21 wrote:
Or an alternate take, If you are a cult of strife player, sucks to be you having to buy 2 books to play your army.

Needing to buy a full priced book for 4 pages of rules (which im sure 1 page is relevent, the rest is probably artwork, crusade and other gak)

Are we larping in the alt universe where any rules content in any book isnt instantly available online and if you just want a small bit you cant get it except by buying the book?

I think we're trying not to encourage piracy, since that's, y'know, against the Terms of Service for Dakka.

....Are you under the impression that the various youtubers get together bimonthly on some sort of flying zeppelin craft and launch daring raids on the Games Workshop factories in china in order to mysteriously always seem to have the book ready to go when preorders go up?

I was kind of operating on the idea that Games Workshop mails them to them, but your concept I will admit is more exciting.

"Ocean's 40: K!"

Sarcasm aside, I'm pretty sure GW doesn't want you taking screenshots of the reviews posted by YouTubers and using them in lieu of buying the books, but hey, I could be mistaken. Maybe GW doesn't like making money off their books.

Who knows? Anyway, sorry for derailing the thread.

The fact that they keep sending books to people who post them in their entirety on youtube reviews suggests that they don't really care if you, well, read what's shown to you.

I mean, if GW allows them to show it page by page, crearly legible, I don't think that counts as piracy.

yukishiro1 wrote:
The fact that they keep sending books to people who post them in their entirety on youtube reviews suggests that they don't really care if you, well, read what's shown to you.

Yea, people still buy books. Screenshots are pretty inconvenient, really and not easy to casually peruse like with a book.

The profit margin on books is tiny compared to plastic, the books are really just an advertisement for the plastic, so if posting the book on youtube gets a bunch of people to buy plastic who wouldn't otherwise...that's a win for GW. They'll never come out and tell people they don't care whether they buy the books or not, but the fact is that if someone buys the plastic and never spends a penny on a book...that suits GW just fine.

yukishiro1 wrote:
The profit margin on books is tiny compared to plastic, the books are really just an advertisement for the plastic, so if posting the book on youtube gets a bunch of people to buy plastic who wouldn't otherwise...that's a win for GW. They'll never come out and tell people they don't care whether they buy the books or not, but the fact is that if someone buys the plastic and never spends a penny on a book...that suits GW just fine.

The margin can't be that bad, can it? It certainly isn't as good as the margin on plastic, but still... Books certainly do drive interest though.

Printing and shipping heavy, glossy, full-color books is super expensive. Even when you do it in China.

The printing costs for a $50 GW plastic kit is a small fraction of the printing costs for a $50 GW book. It's not even close.

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/2020-hot-sales-cheap-high-quality_1600063109367.html?spm=a2700.7735675.normal_offer.d_image.19d6f362fo1JJF&s=p

It doesn't seem to be as cheap as making models, but even if the cost of books jumps 10 times because of transport, they should still be making profit on those books.

I think we can conclusively state that if GW wasn't making an acceptable profit on their books, they wouldn't publish as many of them as they do. After all, why spend good money to lose money on all those Codexes when they could publish few multi-army Indexes, even with more detailed rules, that would sell more units each?

yukishiro1 wrote:
Printing and shipping heavy, glossy, full-color books is super expensive. Even when you do it in China.

The printing costs for a $50 GW plastic kit is a small fraction of the printing costs for a $50 GW book. It's not even close.

Are we talking the unit cost or the cost of getting moulds set up here?

Karol wrote:
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/2020-hot-sales-cheap-high-quality_1600063109367.html?spm=a2700.7735675.normal_offer.d_image.19d6f362fo1JJF&s=p

It doesn't seem to be as cheap as making models, but even if the cost of books jumps 10 times because of transport, they should still be making profit on those books.

Lol, you can't print a 100 page full color hardback book for $1, no matter how many pieces you order. If you actually followed up with those people you'd find out that's probably just the base cost, before adding on for materials, pages, color, etc.

GW isn't losing money on those books, don't get me wrong, but they aren't making much either - certainly not compared to what they make off plastic. Printing plastic is nearly free, the costs are essentially all in the setup; once you recoup your setup costs, the profit margin is obscene. Books are different - the cost of printing is much more significant per unit.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alextroy wrote:
I think we can conclusively state that if GW wasn't making an acceptable profit on their books, they wouldn't publish as many of them as they do. After all, why spend good money to lose money on all those Codexes when they could publish few multi-army Indexes, even with more detailed rules, that would sell more units each?

They aren't losing money (except on the big flops like that terrain book that literally nobody bought), but to put that aside, even if they were, it wouldn't make sense to consolidate into a few multi-army releases, because the whole point is to inspire people to buy plastic. If you release your stuff all at once, you don't do that. The constant stream of books is to keep people hyped and engaged and buying new plastic.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Printing and shipping heavy, glossy, full-color books is super expensive. Even when you do it in China.

The printing costs for a $50 GW plastic kit is a small fraction of the printing costs for a $50 GW book. It's not even close.

Are we talking the unit cost or the cost of getting moulds set up here?

The plastic itself costs practically nothing, all the cost of a sprue is in the mould and machine.

Yep. Books are cheap to write and extremely expensive to print. Plastic is comparatively expensive to design, but essentially free once you have things set up.

The plastic may be cheap, but those molds don’t sit around spontaneously spitting out sprues. It takes labor, machinery, and electricity to produce those models in addition to the plastic.

 alextroy wrote:
The plastic may be cheap, but those molds don’t sit around spontaneously spitting out sprues. It takes labor, machinery, and electricity to produce those models in addition to the plastic.

Printing presses also take labor, machinery and electricity.
Whats your point?

I doubt GW are spending more than $3-4 a book. This is almost certainly considerably more than any halfway popular plastic kit (which will eventually be depreciated down to just a few cents) - but at the same time, if you ultimately sell both for $40-50, the people along the chain should be making plenty of money.

 Ordana wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
The plastic may be cheap, but those molds don’t sit around spontaneously spitting out sprues. It takes labor, machinery, and electricity to produce those models in addition to the plastic.

Printing presses also take labor, machinery and electricity.
Whats your point?

The point is you can't just say "plastic cheap" so models are more profitable. Paper is cheap also. Determining which is cheaper to produce is a matter of much more than the input material.

Of course it is. Where did anyone say otherwise?

The profit margin on plastic kit is far, far higher than on hardback glossy color books. It isn't even close. GW has a 31% profit margin (25% before IP licensing); that's obscene and dwarfs the profits of anyone in publishing by miles, even with publishers doing better recently than they have in a very long time. And I guarantee you the big publishers get better deals on printing than GW does.

Big publishers don't charge $50 for a Codex-sized book

Tyel wrote:
I doubt GW are spending more than $3-4 a book. This is almost certainly considerably more than any halfway popular plastic kit (which will eventually be depreciated down to just a few cents) - but at the same time, if you ultimately sell both for $40-50, the people along the chain should be making plenty of money.

It's likely a bit more than that. 100+ page 9x12 glossy full color hardbacks are very expensive to produce. Obviously I don't have their contracts available to know for sure, but that would be a very competitive printing contract. I would be surprised if their profit margin on books is even 1/3 what it is on plastic.

 alextroy wrote:
Big publishers don't charge $50 for a Codex-sized book

It depends largely on expected sales volume. There are two reasons why your university books cost so much: They are in a niche subject, and you HAVE to buy them for your class.

 Charistoph wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Big publishers don't charge $50 for a Codex-sized book

It depends largely on expected sales volume. There are two reasons why your university books cost so much: They are in a niche subject, and you HAVE to buy them for your class.

Speaking of edition churn...

 Charistoph wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Big publishers don't charge $50 for a Codex-sized book

It depends largely on expected sales volume. There are two reasons why your university books cost so much: They are in a niche subject, and you HAVE to buy them for your class.

All my college text books were way bigger than a $50 codex... and a whole lot more expensive! But that was a captive audience issue. The professors decided what books you purchases and they didn't need to care about the price. It's like buying food and drink at a sporting event. You have to buy from concessions, so the prices are crazy in any other context.

But that's an argument for healthy profit margins, not bad ones.

 alextroy wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Big publishers don't charge $50 for a Codex-sized book

It depends largely on expected sales volume. There are two reasons why your university books cost so much: They are in a niche subject, and you HAVE to buy them for your class.

All my college text books were way bigger than a $50 codex... and a whole lot more expensive! But that was a captive audience issue. The professors decided what books you purchases and they didn't need to care about the price. It's like buying food and drink at a sporting event. You have to buy from concessions, so the prices are crazy in any other context.

But that's an argument for healthy profit margins, not bad ones.

And can you buy another's books to play 40K other than GW's if you don't want to spend hours developing acceptance with your lcoal group? We're dealing with a similar captive audience issue, and, I might add, also consider the fact that if the professor has a book on the subject matter in question, you're using his book for the class.

Still, it's not like those books are regular sellers at your local B.Dalton or on Amazon's all-category best seller lists any more than a Warhammer book is.

They must be making a good deal still on their books. Unless people don't remember they were selling the books digital as well for a time which had to be the most cost effective right ? Well I guess not as they stopped to then fall back on paper books. They put out tons of them though, as physical copies, they wouldn't do that all the time if it wasn't a good deal for them as more than just a way to move models. The fact it moves models with rules is a very good bonus.

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
They must be making a good deal still on their books. Unless people don't remember they were selling the books digital as well for a time which had to be the most cost effective right ? Well I guess not as they stopped to then fall back on paper books. They put out tons of them though, as physical copies, they wouldn't do that all the time if it wasn't a good deal for them as more than just a way to move models. The fact it moves models with rules is a very good bonus.

I would guess that the move away from digital books is more a result of trying to fight piracy, useless tho it may be, then because paper books are so amazing.

 Charistoph wrote:

 alextroy wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Big publishers don't charge $50 for a Codex-sized book

It depends largely on expected sales volume. There are two reasons why your university books cost so much: They are in a niche subject, and you HAVE to buy them for your class.

All my college text books were way bigger than a $50 codex... and a whole lot more expensive! But that was a captive audience issue. The professors decided what books you purchases and they didn't need to care about the price. It's like buying food and drink at a sporting event. You have to buy from concessions, so the prices are crazy in any other context.

But that's an argument for healthy profit margins, not bad ones.

And can you buy another's books to play 40K other than GW's if you don't want to spend hours developing acceptance with your lcoal group? We're dealing with a similar captive audience issue, and, I might add, also consider the fact that if the professor has a book on the subject matter in question, you're using his book for the class.

Still, it's not like those books are regular sellers at your local B.Dalton or on Amazon's all-category best seller lists any more than a Warhammer book is.

So I think we agree that GW probably makes better margin on their rulebooks than the average bookseller?

 Ordana wrote:

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
They must be making a good deal still on their books. Unless people don't remember they were selling the books digital as well for a time which had to be the most cost effective right ? Well I guess not as they stopped to then fall back on paper books. They put out tons of them though, as physical copies, they wouldn't do that all the time if it wasn't a good deal for them as more than just a way to move models. The fact it moves models with rules is a very good bonus.

I would guess that the move away from digital books is more a result of trying to fight piracy, useless tho it may be, then because paper books are so amazing.

More likely that they want to push more people towards using the app - thus ensuring that they get mucho grande cashola.


(If they are trying to fight piracy, they're failing miserably - it's not like it's greatly more difficult to find a scan of any particular hard copy book now that it ever was to find a PDF which fell off the back of a truck)

OUR COMBAT PATROL BOX IS AWESOME!

Did not expect that- a Raider, a Ravager and Incubi? Fabulous!

Well, that's that. We knew, but now its official and everything:
Dark Eldar are getting jack and squat, and jack went home.

Have some dice. [Actually the dice are pretty nice. I'm sniggering a bit at the idea that turquoise is 'dark,' however. DE apparently have surprisingly pretty souls.]

The dice are a deep turquoise – as dark as a Drukhari’s soul – with off-white pips and the sigil of the Kabal of the Black Heart in place of the 6

Really, really good box, I agree. Let's see if the previews tomorrow are as good as this announcement.

Voss wrote:
Well, that's that. We knew, but now its official and everything:
Dark Eldar are getting jack and squat, and jack went home.

Have some dice. [Actually the dice are pretty nice. I'm sniggering a bit at the idea that turquoise is 'dark,' however. DE apparently have surprisingly pretty souls.]

The dice are a deep turquoise – as dark as a Drukhari’s soul – with off-white pips and the sigil of the Kabal of the Black Heart in place of the 6

I'm gonna be a bit nitpicky, but it's annoying that GW have switched the DE faction symbol to that of The Kabal of the Black Heart.

I'm no Drukhari player or even Drukhari-curious, but combined with the Durkhari half of Piety and Pain you get:

Combat Patrol

Archon

10 Kabalite Warriors

5 Incubi

Raider

Ravager

Piety and Pain

Lelith Hesperax

10 Wyches

5 Scourges

Venom

Sounds like not a bad start to an army in two purchases, assuming the codex doesn't leave Coven as the best part of the army.

 harlokin wrote:

Voss wrote:
Well, that's that. We knew, but now its official and everything:
Dark Eldar are getting jack and squat, and jack went home.

Have some dice. [Actually the dice are pretty nice. I'm sniggering a bit at the idea that turquoise is 'dark,' however. DE apparently have surprisingly pretty souls.]

The dice are a deep turquoise – as dark as a Drukhari’s soul – with off-white pips and the sigil of the Kabal of the Black Heart in place of the 6

I'm gonna be a bit nitpicky, but it's annoying that GW have switched the DE faction symbol to that of The Kabal of the Black Heart.

That's fair - though I honestly couldn't tell you want the DE faction symbol is. The 2010 codex was the last one I bought and it just has a pointy helmet on the spine.

Its always been a problem with GW, where specific subfactions become the banner wavers for the whole thing. Way back when I was a young 'un, I had an Evil Sunz t-shirt, but couldn't ever find a similar Snakebites shirt. It was either Bad Moons, Evil Sunz or Goffs. Ultramarines are obviously the same kind of thing, and for whatever reason Craftworld stuff often sticks on Biel Tan and Ulthwe.

I think that's been the DE symbol since 7th edition - as per the ally matrix.

Be interested to see the price of the combat patrol. If its a decent discount you could buy 3 and have a reasonable DE force. Afraid Piety and Pain just seems like a grab bag of random stuff that doesn't really help. (I mean its not bad in itself - but it doesn't form the core to anything, and giving you 1 venom so... 5 wyches and probably Lelith run along on foot I guess? feels awful).

Tyel wrote:
I think that's been the DE symbol since 7th edition - as per the ally matrix.

Be interested to see the price of the combat patrol. If its a decent discount you could buy 3 and have a reasonable DE force. Afraid Piety and Pain just seems like a grab bag of random stuff that doesn't really help. (I mean its not bad in itself - but it doesn't form the core to anything, and giving you 1 venom so... 5 wyches and probably Lelith run along on foot I guess? feels awful).

Although the combat patrol is solid and utterly spot-on as a replacement start collecting, it has enough of the really core Kabal stuff that I already have (capped on Ravagers for example , though more Incubi is ever a plus) that I won't buy one.

Conversely, New Lelith, spare wyches to round out my existing three squads with special weapons, a venom (always need more of them) and scourges to finish up an existing project, P&P is just perfect for my tiny niche.

The Combat Patrol's the better product for the line, though.

I have to agree the combat patrol feels like a good box from a starting up point of view, real solid.

Piety and Pain, I'm not a huge fan of the dual faction box sets but looks good if those units will all be good for you, the sister half feels better to me.

The codex cover art looks awful, sorry it feels so dialed in and spiritless I hope we can't judge the book by its cover in this case.

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
I have to agree the combat patrol feels like a good box from a starting up point of view, real solid.

Piety and Pain, I'm not a huge fan of the dual faction box sets but looks good if those units will all be good for you, the sister half feels better to me.

The codex cover art looks awful, sorry it feels so dialed in and spiritless I hope we can't judge the book by its cover in this case.

I don't think dialed in has the meaning you think it does, I think you were going for phoned in.

@Tyel- I'd hope the CP would be the same as the others so far. It seems early to change pricing. At that price its the archon and the raider 'free.'

---
@Catulle- P&P is odd, just because the DE side overlaps so much with the current (now ex) Start Collecting (and also with Blood of the Phoenix, but that had its own problems). It trades the generic succubus for Lelith and reavers for scourges- its otherwise identical.

If I were to want more DE models, I'd much rather pick up a box of scourges and the start collecting than P&P. Much better value as scourges are a cheaper kit, and that's assuming the price of P&P is reasonable rather than a bloated mess like Blood of the Phoenix. (Given Retributors, Immolator and a Sister character are $55+75+30 (or 35) and Lelith is absolutely going to be more than the $25 succubus, I'll be shocked if the P&P box isn't $180 minimum (two start collecting sets), if not higher.

----

AngryAngel80 wrote:The codex cover art looks awful, sorry it feels so dialed in and spiritless I hope we can't judge the book by its cover in this case.

Yeah, that's a bad cover. Even without the weird jumping poses, that's just... blah.

 AngryAngel80 wrote:

The codex cover art looks awful, sorry it feels so dialed in and spiritless I hope we can't judge the book by its cover in this case.

Ugh, I don't know who the artist is but I fething well hate their work.

Every piece I've seen of theirs just looks like they badly-photoshopped a load of Dark Eldar characters onto the world's most generic background.

"What do Dark Eldar vehicles look like again? Ah, sod it, I'll just draw some green-orange blobs in the sky. No one will notice."

Comparing the new DE cover to the other covers of this edition it's around the same as all the others. GE's new cover art is all safe and clean digital art with very little personality.

That said if you changed the orange background on codex DE to a cool green or blue and added a few spikes and spires behind them I think it would look just fine.

Voss wrote:
@Catulle- P&P is odd, just because the DE side overlaps so much with the current (now ex) Start Collecting (and also with Blood of the Phoenix, but that had its own problems). It trades the generic succubus for Lelith and reavers for scourges- its otherwise identical.

If I were to want more DE models, I'd much rather pick up a box of scourges and the start collecting than P&P. Much better value as scourges are a cheaper kit, and that's assuming the price of P&P is reasonable rather than a bloated mess like Blood of the Phoenix. (Given Retributors, Immolator and a Sister character are $55+75+30 (or 35) and Lelith is absolutely going to be more than the $25 succubus, I'll be shocked if the P&P box isn't $180 minimum (two start collecting sets), if not higher.

Yeah, for sure my interest is the product of my *very* specific circumstances (including a partner in crime who's in it for the Sisters) but I'm not going to look the box set gift horse in the mouth as the stars align this time!

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
I have to agree the combat patrol feels like a good box from a starting up point of view, real solid.

Piety and Pain, I'm not a huge fan of the dual faction box sets but looks good if those units will all be good for you, the sister half feels better to me.

The codex cover art looks awful, sorry it feels so dialed in and spiritless I hope we can't judge the book by its cover in this case.

Really? honestly, I've loved that style since the 8th 'dex.I love the more alien look for Drukhari that artist has.

IMO that DE cover looks dogshit.
Personal opinion.

Not enough detail in the background, weird pose of the main subject. Face is all kinda wierd... Just very meh.

I have to say, the cover art ain't great. But a lot of GW cove art isn't good tbh.

I'm more concerned about the quality of what's inside it than what's on the cover. Hope to be proved wrong, but they haven't exactly blown anyone's mind with the previews; if there's some interesting new ideas lurking in there, they've kept pretty silent about it thus far.

Haven't had a computer for a month so caught back up on Warhammer Community articles, am I crazy or is Lelith's melee so dogshit that she only kills a single marine on average if she doesn't double fight?

Jesus Christ.

yukishiro1 wrote:
I'm more concerned about the quality of what's inside it than what's on the cover. Hope to be proved wrong, but they haven't exactly blown anyone's mind with the previews; if there's some interesting new ideas lurking in there, they've kept pretty silent about it thus far.

Yeah. I'm remaining open-minded, but the previews thus far haven't been terribly exciting. I think the changes to marines (and to a lesser extent, necrons) were so extreme that damage 2 splinter cannons with fewer shots and an extra attack on kabalites seem kind of underwhelming.

 vipoid wrote:

 AngryAngel80 wrote:

The codex cover art looks awful, sorry it feels so dialed in and spiritless I hope we can't judge the book by its cover in this case.

Ugh, I don't know who the artist is but I fething well hate their work.

Every piece I've seen of theirs just looks like they badly-photoshopped a load of Dark Eldar characters onto the world's most generic background.

"What do Dark Eldar vehicles look like again? Ah, sod it, I'll just draw some green-orange blobs in the sky. No one will notice."

Yeah, I really don't want to trash on it I just don't like it at all. It feels too, meh. Too clean, lacking soul, with a lot of random nothing and the poses look pretty poor, to me anyways. I get this is a personal opinion thing but I have generally liked all of the Dark Eldar coves for awhile this one feels bad to me though. As was said by others, it feels in a similar vein to other book drops but while I maybe wasn't a huge fan of those this just looks bad to me. Which feels like an all around issue, design, color use, pose on who we can see. I know a cover is a minor gripe so anyone reading this I'm not saying the book will be awful for sure, the cover is awful to me though.

I guess it's in spirit of the army as it causes me suffering just to look on it.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Haven't had a computer for a month so caught back up on Warhammer Community articles, am I crazy or is Lelith's melee so dogshit that she only kills a single marine on average if she doesn't double fight?

Jesus Christ.

Yep, i really hope we can get that D2 impaler, otherwise she will bounce on marine lol, not even starting with gravis

Does piety and pain contain new models? Or is the DE codex being released with zero new sculpts

mrFickle wrote:
Does piety and pain contain new models? Or is the DE codex being released with zero new sculpts

0 for what we know now, just lelith new model

mrFickle wrote:
Does piety and pain contain new models? Or is the DE codex being released with zero new sculpts

Piety and Pain contains the new (and slightly polarising) Lelith Hesperax model. No other new sculpts have been teased, so it is probable that she is the only one.

 harlokin wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
Does piety and pain contain new models? Or is the DE codex being released with zero new sculpts

Piety and Pain contains the new (and slightly polarising) Lelith Hesperax model. No other new sculpts have been teased, so it is probable that she is the only one.

It's 100% certain she's the only one.

The fact that Dark Eldar are only getting one new model fills me with dread for when it comes time for the new Craftworlds book.

I don't link what Drukhari gets to what Craftworld gets. Nobody knows how GW will please or fail us except GW themselves.

"Here come the pointy elves" you wouldn't know it judging from GW's none existent attempts to build hype.

 Imateria wrote:
"Here come the pointy elves" you wouldn't know it judging from GW's none existent attempts to build hype.

maybe they know that we're a bunch of bitter, insanely negative neckbeards who would gladly spew bile in the FB comment section of any reveal they give us.

.....because they're not going to be giving us any of the things that we've actually been asking for for years and years and years and are instead doing weird stuff like making splinter weapons Strength 2 instead of Strength 1 and finding a way to split the faction into 19 separately keyworded subfactions each with their own traits.

It's amazing to me just how little effort it would actually take to make the dark eldar community insanely happy. I could whip up everybody's favorite drukhari codex since 5th in an afternoon if i had free reign to put in a few "Official conversion guides" for how to mix the incredibly versatile and fully compatible model range together to create various builds and characters.

"Take this head, this weapon and this body and put it on this skyboard and that right there is your official Baron miniature, 100% our plastic, copyright us, anyone selling an alternative to this is doing a naughty and we will sue them."

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Haven't had a computer for a month so caught back up on Warhammer Community articles, am I crazy or is Lelith's melee so dogshit that she only kills a single marine on average if she doesn't double fight?

Jesus Christ.

Apparently at 90 pts shes betetr then a smash captain... So ive been told.. That is of course until you factor in relics, traits and doctrines.

 Argive wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Haven't had a computer for a month so caught back up on Warhammer Community articles, am I crazy or is Lelith's melee so dogshit that she only kills a single marine on average if she doesn't double fight?

Jesus Christ.

Apparently at 90 pts shes betetr then a smash captain... So ive been told.. That is of course until you factor in relics, traits and doctrines.

Depends what you're trying to kill.

A Primaris Captain (5 Attacks and Shock Assault) with a Master Crafted Power Sword does...

6 attacks
5 hits
10/3 wounds
50/18 or 25/9 failed saves, for 2-3 Dead MEQ

Lelith (7 attacks, conditional Fight Twice) does...
7 attacks
7 hits
7/2 wounds
35/12 failed saves, for about 1.5 dead MEQ, then double that for Fighting Twice

Notably, if she fails to body a MEQ, she just stops cold. Though that'll only happen about 15% of the time, according to AnyDice.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Notably, if she fails to body a MEQ, she just stops cold. Though that'll only happen about 15% of the time, according to AnyDice.

And she may still be +1A from Strife, which cuts that down a little. She may also give herself reroll 1s if Necrons are any indication.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Argive wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Haven't had a computer for a month so caught back up on Warhammer Community articles, am I crazy or is Lelith's melee so dogshit that she only kills a single marine on average if she doesn't double fight?

Jesus Christ.

Apparently at 90 pts shes betetr then a smash captain... So ive been told.. That is of course until you factor in relics, traits and doctrines.

Depends what you're trying to kill.

A Primaris Captain (5 Attacks and Shock Assault) with a Master Crafted Power Sword does...

6 attacks
5 hits
10/3 wounds
50/18 or 25/9 failed saves, for 2-3 Dead MEQ

Lelith (7 attacks, conditional Fight Twice) does...
7 attacks
7 hits
7/2 wounds
35/12 failed saves, for about 1.5 dead MEQ, then double that for Fighting Twice

Notably, if she fails to body a MEQ, she just stops cold. Though that'll only happen about 15% of the time, according to AnyDice.

Right, and then you compare her to say, a chainsword or double lightning claw captain and she costs less and shreds more GEQ type models.

If only anyone were using GEQ in the meta right now, she might have a job. Personally, I expect her to keep her current 3++ invuln defenses and to be likely to be capable of killing most basic HQs, albeit not in a single fight phase (it'll probably take 2 with most things she can successfully kill, which isn't as bad as it'd usually be thanks to No Escape.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Notably, if she fails to body a MEQ, she just stops cold. Though that'll only happen about 15% of the time, according to AnyDice.

And she may still be +1A from Strife, which cuts that down a little. She may also give herself reroll 1s if Necrons are any indication.

Nah, it'll be <cult> CORE units, which will be wyches hellions and reavers. Unless the drukhari codex skips core entirely, lelith's buff will be core only.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Notably, if she fails to body a MEQ, she just stops cold. Though that'll only happen about 15% of the time, according to AnyDice.

And she may still be +1A from Strife, which cuts that down a little. She may also give herself reroll 1s if Necrons are any indication.

Potentially true... But that's a 95 point buffing unit that does pretty much the same damage. With no Relics, Strats, or Chapter Tactics to improve themselves.

As mentioned above, she blends GEQs better... But that's not an issue in the current game, really.

I don't think it's that she doesn't have a role...it's that her role is weird and doesn't fit what it should be.

In general, "cheap cut price horde blender" is not really what a legendary duelist should excel at.

This is a problem with aeldari generally at this point - after so many years of stat inflation for imperium units, aeldari have been turned more and more into bargain basement garbage with cheap points but low power level, and that feels weird and out of keeping with how things ought to work.

A lot of people were hoping that GW would actually remedy this situation in the 9th edition aeldari books, but from what we've seen so far, DE is still going to be a bargain basement cheap garbage codex. Just with slightly better bargain basement garbage stats.

And she's also in direct competition with Drazar, with his new statline if he keeps his fight twice always special rule he's just...100% better lelith. Against all targets. He's 130pts vs 90pts which is a good chunk, but man if he keeps all his current special rules he just kills fething ANYTHING he touches. And he works with all subfactions, so he is 100% in direct competition with lelith. I havent run the numbers but he gets 2 fewer attacks (assuming lelith gets the Strife +1) but they're S5 with +1 to wound, so I think drazar actually does kill equal or more GEQs than lelith, and hes massively superior vs eeeeeeeeeeeeverything else.

Also, what I'd consider the most likely statline changes for regular succubi would make them better than lelith for a lot of stuff too. +1A, and the glaive with D2 and no more -1 to hit would make a regular el cheapo succubus really quite good at killing MEQs, the thing the game is actually for at this point.

If the Blood Glaive is still there, a Red Grief Succubus would definitely be better then Lelith.

the_scotsman wrote:
And she's also in direct competition with Drazar, with his new statline if he keeps his fight twice always special rule he's just...100% better lelith. Against all targets. He's 130pts vs 90pts which is a good chunk, but man if he keeps all his current special rules he just kills fething ANYTHING he touches. And he works with all subfactions, so he is 100% in direct competition with lelith. I havent run the numbers but he gets 2 fewer attacks (assuming lelith gets the Strife +1) but they're S5 with +1 to wound, so I think drazar actually does kill equal or more GEQs than lelith, and hes massively superior vs eeeeeeeeeeeeverything else.

Also, what I'd consider the most likely statline changes for regular succubi would make them better than lelith for a lot of stuff too. +1A, and the glaive with D2 and no more -1 to hit would make a regular el cheapo succubus really quite good at killing MEQs, the thing the game is actually for at this point.

Drazhar is actually hitting at S6, with a flat 3 damage. We've yet to see his duel blades profile but I wouldn't be surprised if he's got 7 attacks at S5, that virtually makes him better against everything than Lelith.

 Imateria wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
And she's also in direct competition with Drazar, with his new statline if he keeps his fight twice always special rule he's just...100% better lelith. Against all targets. He's 130pts vs 90pts which is a good chunk, but man if he keeps all his current special rules he just kills fething ANYTHING he touches. And he works with all subfactions, so he is 100% in direct competition with lelith. I havent run the numbers but he gets 2 fewer attacks (assuming lelith gets the Strife +1) but they're S5 with +1 to wound, so I think drazar actually does kill equal or more GEQs than lelith, and hes massively superior vs eeeeeeeeeeeeverything else.

Also, what I'd consider the most likely statline changes for regular succubi would make them better than lelith for a lot of stuff too. +1A, and the glaive with D2 and no more -1 to hit would make a regular el cheapo succubus really quite good at killing MEQs, the thing the game is actually for at this point.

Drazhar is actually hitting at S6, with a flat 3 damage. We've yet to see his duel blades profile but I wouldn't be surprised if he's got 7 attacks at S5, that virtually makes him better against everything than Lelith.

Yeah, that's kind of my default assumption. S6 damage three with a +1 to wound (I'd expect him to keep as its keyed to INCUBI only) makes him a legitimate threat to everything up to and including tanks. He wounds knights on 4s. He's got a fairly similar statline and a bit higher threat level as a smash captain with no mobility wargear, which makes sense as he doesn't bring as much of a buff capability as "All Core within 6 reroll 1s to hit"

 Argive wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Haven't had a computer for a month so caught back up on Warhammer Community articles, am I crazy or is Lelith's melee so dogshit that she only kills a single marine on average if she doesn't double fight?

Jesus Christ.

Apparently at 90 pts shes betetr then a smash captain... So ive been told.. That is of course until you factor in relics, traits and doctrines.

She doesn't kill a fething warlock on a bike in the fight phase on average.

I don't give a gak if she's 5 points and as such technically vastly undercosted, her combat is hilariously anemic compared to any respectable combat character. S4 D1 is fething pathetic, even with seven attacks with AP3 and WS2+.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Argive wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Haven't had a computer for a month so caught back up on Warhammer Community articles, am I crazy or is Lelith's melee so dogshit that she only kills a single marine on average if she doesn't double fight?

Jesus Christ.

Apparently at 90 pts shes betetr then a smash captain... So ive been told.. That is of course until you factor in relics, traits and doctrines.

She doesn't kill a fething warlock on a bike in the fight phase on average.

I don't give a gak if she's 5 points and as such technically vastly undercosted, her combat is hilariously anemic compared to any respectable combat character. S4 D1 is fething pathetic, even with seven attacks with AP3 and WS2+.

Also she is a one off special character. You cant take more than one.
If you compare her to the likes of Ragnar its cringe bad..

For sure her make or break point will be any special rules. As is it's hard to deny she's hilariously weak compared to characters in her weight class.

yukishiro1 wrote:
I don't think it's that she doesn't have a role...it's that her role is weird and doesn't fit what it should be.

In general, "cheap cut price horde blender" is not really what a legendary duelist should excel at.

This is a problem with aeldari generally at this point - after so many years of stat inflation for imperium units, aeldari have been turned more and more into bargain basement garbage with cheap points but low power level, and that feels weird and out of keeping with how things ought to work.

A lot of people were hoping that GW would actually remedy this situation in the 9th edition aeldari books, but from what we've seen so far, DE is still going to be a bargain basement cheap garbage codex. Just with slightly better bargain basement garbage stats.

I hear you, but I also feel like Lelith's current rules ran into the opposite problem. I always feel like she's okay at killing characters, but pretty bad at killing everything else. She's not known only for dueling. I'd rather have her prove her prowess against mooks and then have a bit of tension when going up against their boss. And I definitely don't want her to have arbitrarily high damage characteristics or whatever that lets her auto delete daemon princes.

Wyldhunt wrote:

I hear you, but I also feel like Lelith's current rules ran into the opposite problem. I always feel like she's okay at killing characters, but pretty bad at killing everything else. She's not known only for dueling. I'd rather have her prove her prowess against mooks and then have a bit of tension when going up against their boss. And I definitely don't want her to have arbitrarily high damage characteristics or whatever that lets her auto delete daemon princes.

Given she's not pointed dissimilar to a daemon prince and has no psychic, no force-multiplier-role, etc.. she should auto-delete a Daemon Prince (and Daemon Princes generally should come down on toughness, attacks, etc.. if they keep their re-roll 1s, psychics, etc.. , or go up to 200+ points, which is what Eldar pay for DP-style models like the Avatar or Yncrane).

I might actually prefer something where Lelith has fewer Attacks but inflicts MW on infantry and monsters. The idea being she lands deliberate blows with such precision that mortal armor is no protection at all and even things like energy fields, her senses are so fine tuned she can sense tiny flickers or weakpoints and pierce them with her otherwise vanilla ordinary steel knives.

The thing is, the Dark Eldar don't lack for chaff blenders so making Lelith another chaff blender doesn't really add anything new to the faction as a whole. While Drazhar might do damage through sheer number of high strength attacks doing multiple Damage, a contrast might instead be for Lelith to be the precision scalpel. A few more precise hits rather than the hurricane of blows that Drazhar is depicted as being.

Mortal wounds would be perfect for Lelith.

Yeah, I 'd prefer GW to take a step back from constant stat inflation and actually think about their design choices. I'd love to see Lelith with fewer attacks but each one extremely lethal so instead of just "moar numbers!!111!!!" we get something a little more nuanced.

You could even justify her being weaker against hordes because she doesn't care about them and prefers to hunt the enemy characters, the trade-off being she's really good against those characters. Maybe even give her a rule that scales her damage or attacks up depending on the enemy's wounds or attacks characteristics.

GW is recently taking that road fortunately.

Models like the nightbringer are extremely scary, but not due to the stats.

Suppose for example that Lelith ignores all saves, or has a rule similar to the tyranid artifact. After the fight roll a dice. If you get a number higher than the enemy remaining wounds, you slay the model.

I remember when GW made a post on warhammer community where all 40k characters had a tournament showdown

Lelith won, even vs a freaking solitaire

i am really courius now

Spoletta wrote:
GW is recently taking that road fortunately.

Models like the nightbringer are extremely scary, but not due to the stats.

Suppose for example that Lelith ignores all saves, or has a rule similar to the tyranid artifact. After the fight roll a dice. If you get a number higher than the enemy remaining wounds, you slay the model.

Its an issue with GW's shortsighted design where they constantly introduce stop-gap measures to fundamental problems.

Plethora of FnP's, invuls and now damage reduction mechanics all to try and stem the problem of excessive lethality while at the same time introducing mechanics to avoid or bypass the very mechanics they use to patch up the problem.

If lelith has any additional special rules of note, it will be rules that she already has. They would have previewed "ignores all saves" or something similarly incredible.

If she still has "A cut above" and the CoS +1A on the charge, as well as her 3++ dodge, she will be perfectly functional, as "Selfish Version" of a space marine captain that trades the much more powerful "reroll 1s to hit with almost everything in the codex" aura for a narrower "reroll 1s to hit only in close combat with 3 units" aura, and gains extra killing power.


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 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Argive wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Haven't had a computer for a month so caught back up on Warhammer Community articles, am I crazy or is Lelith's melee so dogshit that she only kills a single marine on average if she doesn't double fight?

Jesus Christ.

Apparently at 90 pts shes betetr then a smash captain... So ive been told.. That is of course until you factor in relics, traits and doctrines.

She doesn't kill a fething warlock on a bike in the fight phase on average.

I don't give a gak if she's 5 points and as such technically vastly undercosted, her combat is hilariously anemic compared to any respectable combat character. S4 D1 is fething pathetic, even with seven attacks with AP3 and WS2+.

I'm sorry, but according to the fluff she's just a puny eldar, it's honestly overpowered that she should be able to kill one space marine. In a single round of combat? Come on, don't you KNOW what a space marine is? Maybe a guardsman, like not a catachan but a normal run of the mill guardsman, it's OK if she can fight one of those.

 InVerno wrote:
I remember when GW made a post on warhammer community where all 40k characters had a tournament showdown

Lelith won, even vs a freaking solitaire

i am really courius now

3++ is decent and the attacks will add up.

The problem is that in a game things don't exist in a vacuum. She can charge something, do little. Your opponent can then just psychic/counter-charge to reliably delete. Which is generally why assault has to be auto-clear unless you have a mountain of defensive abilities (see DG/DA Terminators).

But at the same time, she's probably still 90 points. She's 2/3rds the price of Drazar - and nowhere near a Daemon Prince. Depending on things to be seen, she may be a suitable upgrade on a Succubus if you were going to take one. As I've said, you wouldn't need many bonuses to push her over to have a probable 1st turn kill on a range of 100 point characters. If for example Power From Pain gave +1 S on turn 3 or something.

Tyel wrote:

 InVerno wrote:
I remember when GW made a post on warhammer community where all 40k characters had a tournament showdown

Lelith won, even vs a freaking solitaire

i am really courius now

3++ is decent and the attacks will add up.

The problem is that in a game things don't exist in a vacuum. She can charge something, do little. Your opponent can then just psychic/counter-charge to reliably delete. Which is generally why assault has to be auto-clear unless you have a mountain of defensive abilities (see DG/DA Terminators).

But at the same time, she's probably still 90 points. She's 2/3rds the price of Drazar - and nowhere near a Daemon Prince. Depending on things to be seen, she may be a suitable upgrade on a Succubus if you were going to take one. As I've said, you wouldn't need many bonuses to push her over to have a probable 1st turn kill on a range of 100 point characters. If for example Power From Pain gave +1 S on turn 3 or something.

with No Escape you don't necessarily NEED to pull a turn 1 kill for her to be effective. If she can grab a character and survive their attacks, she can be quite inconvenient.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/03/16/we-raided-codex-drukhari-and-found-7-rules-youll-want-to-see/

article with rules sneak peek. TRUEBORNS ARE BACK BABY

Master Arcons, Succubi, Haemonculai!

Raiding force is PERFECT now!

Trueborns? Colour me surprised.

Do they cost points?

PenitentJake wrote:
Master Arcons, Succubi, Haemonculai!

Raiding force is PERFECT now!

yeah, no need to bring 3 patrols if you dont want to anymore.
Poisoned tongue actually getting a dope obsession too.
And the way its worded makes me think poisoned might be getting different values depending on the weapon?

Look... Dark Eldars appear to receive the same treatment and care than necrons, death guard and previous codex... who would have tought...

 Galas wrote:
Look... Dark Eldars appear to receive the same treatment and care than necrons, death guard and previous codex... who would have tought...

Me!